# Any thoughts on these pedigrees?



## Nurse2b

Looking for a GSD puppy. All my pets have been rescues so far. So I’m not really savvy on what I’m looking at as far as pedigrees go.  I grew up with a rescue that my parents were told was German lines, but don’t really know anymore than that. 

I’m going to look at a couple females from this pairing. Looking for a family pet (have young kids)even tempered, drive, possibly going to do obedience. Wanting WL vs SL. 

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=698624-terror-von-der-staatsmacht

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=748584-christel-von-haus-ehricke


Thanks!


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## wolfstraum

in my opinion this litter has a very very high probability of being way too much for a beginner and a family situation....if you were hooked on IPO and were committed to daily training, strict management of kenneling, and experienced in handling dogs with extreme drive and a questionable off switch, may be the ideal litter - but it does not look that way from your post.


Lee


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## thegooseman90

Nurse2b said:


> Looking for a GSD puppy. All my pets have been rescues so far. So I’m not really savvy on what I’m looking at as far as pedigrees go.  I grew up with a rescue that my parents were told was German lines, but don’t really know anymore than that.
> 
> I’m going to look at a couple females from this pairing. Looking for a family pet (have young kids)even tempered, drive, possibly going to do obedience. Wanting WL vs SL.
> 
> Terror von der Staatsmacht
> 
> Christel von Haus Ehricke
> 
> 
> Thanks!


I'd trust what wolfstraum says and I from what you say you want stay away from terror von der staatsmach. Steve is an excellent breeder and has been very successful in sport. He says terror is a very real dog, not just a sport dog, and has the tendency to pass that on.

A quick glance at moms side and right away I see ferro von der lutter, askos lesser talked about half sibling. Asko is pretty easy to find info on and doing so will give you an idea of what you're in for during the 2-3 years this dog will take to mature. If you don't feel like searching here's a quick tidbit - inappropriate aggression including towards kids sometimes. Ferro is said to produce similar traits in pups and I've seen this credited to their mother Haska. 

This pedigree is a terrible terrible choice for what you're looking for and I'd be surprised if the breeder would actually even place one of the pups in a novice pet home. Think long and hard on this one and go back to the drawing board.


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## cliffson1

I tend to agree with above posters....this is a really strong breeding. If you are really dog savvy people, then it may work. But if you expect a GS to be a Golden with ears that stand up, this is not breeding for you.


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## wolfstraum

Going to add .......

all pups are cute!! So many pups at 8 or 9 weeks may look like they will be great family pets but as they mature, their genetics wake up and you see the genetic promise of the pedigree.....good or scary!!!!!!!! You may see a sweet little puppy and think that it will stay that way! NOT!!

You have several very experienced people here who all agree that this pairing is far from what a novice pet home needs.


Lee


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## Nurse2b

I do realize what I’m getting into as far as the breed goes. Grew up also with Rottweilers (not that they are the same). 

What about these pedigrees?

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2454167-egga-von-mining

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2363191-karat-vom-radhaus

Thank you


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## wolfstraum

Nurse2b said:


> I do realize what I’m getting into as far as the breed goes. Grew up also with Rottweilers (not that they are the same).
> 
> What about these pedigrees?
> 
> Egga von Mining
> 
> Karat vom Radhaus
> 
> Thank you


Might as well be a totally different breed of dog than the 1st one......these are West German Showlines.....

The line breeding on the male would be of a little concern - know of quite a few dogs with health issues directly sired.....but then, the dog was bred to soooooo many females, hard to know what was actually from him.....

Where are you located????


Lee


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## Nurse2b

Thank you all for responding. We are in WI.


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## wolfstraum

Do you have a time frame for wanting a puppy? next week, next month, within the next 6 months??? do you have goals other than family dog for the puppy?? are you interested in AKC obedience? agility? IPO? nosework? Your two possibles are light years apart so trying to point you in some direction....

Lee


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## Castlemaid

There are lots of Working Line breedings that would be suitable for a family with working dog experience - the first pedigree you posted would be a more extreme breeding, for people interested in top competition and LE. So don't give up on WL if that is what you want, you just need to find a breeder that breeds more balanced dogs. 

What attracted you or got you curious about the first breeding? 

Can't comment on the second breeding - I don't know much about show lines.


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## Jenny720

Ask about which breeders are recommended in your area it will give you place to start and look. Look at the different lines and talk to different breeders and talk to them about your lifestyle. German shepherds are a breed unto their own -highly intelligent and active breed. Develop a strong bond often includes doing things with them and training. They are the most time consuming breed I ever owned but also the most rewarding.


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## Natalie Kaye

Nurse2b said:


> Looking for a GSD puppy. All my pets have been rescues so far. So I’m not really savvy on what I’m looking at as far as pedigrees go.  I grew up with a rescue that my parents were told was German lines, but don’t really know anymore than that.
> 
> I’m going to look at a couple females from this pairing. Looking for a family pet (have young kids)even tempered, drive, possibly going to do obedience. Wanting WL vs SL.
> 
> Terror von der Staatsmacht
> 
> Christel von Haus Ehricke
> 
> 
> Thanks!


I just sent you a PM.


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## Nurse2b

We did end up looking and putting down a deposit on a female from the first pedigree I inquired about. 

I hope that I can utilize this message board to learn as much as I can and get advice as needed. 

Thank you all for your responses, advice, and comments so far.


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## thegooseman90

Better start shopping for trainers now. Best of luck to you and the pup


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## onyx'girl

Nurse2b said:


> We did end up looking and putting down a deposit on a female from the first pedigree I inquired about.
> 
> I hope that I can utilize this message board to learn as much as I can and get advice as needed.
> 
> Thank you all for your responses, advice, and comments so far.


I hope the breeder is the first one you go to for helping you...and that the breeder knows you are going to need guidance.
Breeder needs to set the puppy up for success.


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## Pytheis

Good luck! I hope the puppy is what you expect her to be.


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## Trix

Casamoko German Shepherds in Somerset WI has a litter coming in the next month or two I believe. The breeder is a veterinarian who also does conformance shows and various other competitions (agility, herding, etc.) 

They are ASL’s but very well rounded. I believe the next litter coming will be full siblings of my pup, Neo. He’s 8 months now. He’s been an insanely impressive dog all around even at his age. He fetches a ball as good as any retriever I’ve seen. We’ve done 4-5 mile off leash hikes with zero issue. He pics up on training fast, and his nose is unreal. We play “hide and go seek” and he sniffs out what I hide in some incredible places. His energy and drive is high but can take naps as well. My wife doesn’t work and he gets multiple walks a day (a couple miles each) along with fetch and tons of training and play and is beyond motivated with his energy. 

I know there’s often a general frown to ASL’s here, but I’ve seen plenty of nightmares with the working lines as well. Here’s some pics of him, not sure if the breeding has all been accounted for, but worth checking out (she offers a full health guarantee as well) 

Neo at 7-8 months. 

















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Steve Strom

Nurse2b said:


> We did end up looking and putting down a deposit on a female from the first pedigree I inquired about.
> 
> I hope that I can utilize this message board to learn as much as I can and get advice as needed.
> 
> Thank you all for your responses, advice, and comments so far.


Enjoy your pup. I'm sure everyone on here wants nothing but the best for you.


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## konathegsd

That “possibly do obidience” will turn into a “mandotory obidience” haha good luck with your pup! Any questions come back to the forum and get some advice/guidance.


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## wolfstraum

It really puzzles me when people come and ask for opinions and advice and absolutely ignore it.....the rules here prohibit 
"bashing" but it was pretty clear that no one thought that the first litter was likely to produce a suitable puppy for a novice with children....and the people answering were people who KNOW alot about the dogs involved and had nothing to gain with their advice....

again, all puppies are cute....hopefully the genetics on that pup are not typical of the pedigree


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## GSDguy4EVER

Nurse2b said:


> We did end up looking and putting down a deposit on a female from the first pedigree I inquired about.
> 
> I hope that I can utilize this message board to learn as much as I can and get advice as needed.
> 
> Thank you all for your responses, advice, and comments so far.


This is a very nice working line breeding. I strongly encourage you to listen to the breeder if he/she recommends a certain puppy for your family. This breeding should produce dogs that can work and be stable family companions. However, it also has the potential to produce dogs that are very serious and with high prey drive which my be difficult to manage in a family with small children. I wish all the best of luck!


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## CometDog

Well, definitely let the breeder pick the pup for you at least. And if they don't feel an appropriate one was produced, listen to their advice (if they are a good breeder they won't place a pup in an appropriate home, provided you have accurately described your situation and experience level).

I have always wanted a Czech dog, but knew it wasn't going to be a great fit in my household with 3 kids. After I lost my other rescued GSD, I had a longing for another GSD but this time I wanted a known breeding. A few pups popped up here and there but I was told (and I listened) not for a home where they will not be worked a lot. I was thinking my best chances of a good fit would be WGSL. I was browsing rescues a lot...then I got a call from a trusted trainer friend, who knew me and knew my life and said I know of a great Czech dog for you. He was raised until 5 months in a home that does puppy raising for the breeder. With 5 kids ages 6 to 16. "Medium drive" Way no way! Shut up and take my money! Took him home with the explicit condition I could bring him back to the breeder if it was an issue. Suffice to say he is staying 

Even being labeled medium drive, he still needs a lot of work and would definitely be a disaster in the making if A) I did not have the time and money to invest in training.. B) I wasn't home a lot and had the time to practice the training I was taught and had the time to take him for exercise both physical and mental. 

Even though he is medium drive, I can't let him free play with the kids yet. May be another 2 years before I can, may never be able to. He is not anything but playful towards them, but let unchecked he will take it to high levels of rambunctious. That I can accept and I do have the time to go out in the yard and supervise their frolicking and going about. Will you be ok with never ever leaving your dog and kids unsupervised for 2 year or much more? If you want a dog that can go skip out into the yard and play with your kids while you cook a meal, you probably won't get it from this pairing based on what the experienced are saying of this line. 

I know you put a deposit, and I don't want to sound all negative..but I too grew up around "German Import" (who knows?) GSDs, and they were not like this dude I have here. Rotties are very different too. You asked for advice as a GSD novice, so I think everyone here is really trying to help make sure you go in the right direction for what you want. 

Good luck with the pup and make sure to really research and invest in a really good GSD WL savvy trainer.


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## wolfstraum

CometDog said:


> Well, definitely let the breeder pick the pup for you at least. And if they don't feel an appropriate one was produced, listen to their advice (if they are a good breeder they won't place a pup in an appropriate home, provided you have accurately described your situation and experience level).
> 
> I have always wanted a Czech dog, but knew it wasn't going to be a great fit in my household with 3 kids. After I lost my other rescued GSD, I had a longing for another GSD but this time I wanted a known breeding. A few pups popped up here and there but I was told (and I listened) not for a home where they will not be worked a lot. I was thinking my best chances of a good fit would be WGSL. I was browsing rescues a lot...then I got a call from a trusted trainer friend, who knew me and knew my life and said I know of a great Czech dog for you. He was raised until 5 months in a home that does puppy raising for the breeder. With 5 kids ages 6 to 16. "Medium drive" Way no way! Shut up and take my money! Took him home with the explicit condition I could bring him back to the breeder if it was an issue. Suffice to say he is staying
> 
> Even being labeled medium drive, he still needs a lot of work and would definitely be a disaster in the making if A) I did not have the time and money to invest in training.. B) I wasn't home a lot and had the time to practice the training I was taught and had the time to take him for exercise both physical and mental.
> 
> Even though he is medium drive, I can't let him free play with the kids yet. May be another 2 years before I can, may never be able to. He is not anything but playful towards them, but let unchecked he will take it to high levels of rambunctious. That I can accept and I do have the time to go out in the yard and supervise their frolicking and going about. Will you be ok with never ever leaving your dog and kids unsupervised for 2 year or much more? If you want a dog that can go skip out into the yard and play with your kids while you cook a meal, you probably won't get it from this pairing based on what the experienced are saying of this line.
> 
> I know you put a deposit, and I don't want to sound all negative..but I too grew up around "German Import" (who knows?) GSDs, and they were not like this dude I have here. Rotties are very different too. You asked for advice as a GSD novice, so I think everyone here is really trying to help make sure you go in the right direction for what you want.
> 
> Good luck with the pup and make sure to really research and invest in a really good GSD WL savvy trainer.



Great personal experience posted!


Your dog has very little Czech.....he has one dog who is in the 4rd and 5th generations (Arne Equidis) and another in the 3rd who is actually Czech blood - even some of the dogs wiht Czech numbers are WGWL blood.....when the parents are both SZ registered, that means they are West German is the easiest way to tell.....I recognize kennel names, but if you don't know them....that is an easy way to see it.....the czech numbers are mixed in but all go quickly back to SZ....


By 2 or 2.5 he should start to get a bit more mellow! There are a few dogs with some serious aggression so keep training and emphasize control work ...... Good luck!


Lee


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## Nurse2b

We bring her home in a couple weeks. I’m getting everything ready now. All the regular puppy stuff (kennel, dishes, bed, ect.)

Looking into Badgerland Kennel Club. They have puppy classes starting February 20th and they are only 10 mins from my house.


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## konathegsd

Oh wow that’s quick! Lucky you don’t have to wait too long. I’ve been waiting for 6+ months


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## CometDog

wolfstraum said:


> Great personal experience posted!
> 
> 
> Your dog has very little Czech.....he has one dog who is in the 4rd and 5th generations (Arne Equidis) and another in the 3rd who is actually Czech blood - even some of the dogs wiht Czech numbers are WGWL blood.....when the parents are both SZ registered, that means they are West German is the easiest way to tell.....I recognize kennel names, but if you don't know them....that is an easy way to see it.....the czech numbers are mixed in but all go quickly back to SZ....
> 
> 
> By 2 or 2.5 he should start to get a bit more mellow! There are a few dogs with some serious aggression so keep training and emphasize control work ...... Good luck!
> 
> 
> Lee


 Thank you! I have been meaning to start my own thread have not gotten around to it as I am not familiar with how this works and origins either, maybe this will inspire me My trainer friends and my direct trainer have all worked with his sire and direct lines so I definitely have that going in my favor. Would not have taken on the journey otherwise.

Again to OP, good luck, good to see you are joining a breed specific club. Actually read it wrong, not breed specific. Just a suggestion, you may get more targeted bang for your buck if you go with a more working dog specific club near you, if there is one.


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## Seer

That breeding does not call out to me, intro working line GSD, lol. While the chance a dog from this breeding could be a low medium with lower prey and a very relaxed and friendly nature, I would not bet on it. Most of the puppies according to my interpretation of the pairing are not going to be happy campers with a possibility of attendance of an obedience class. Possibly further complicated by extended periods of crating due to schooling for nursing and kids? This could be great, it can also be a train wreak for the dog. I would say 6040 train wreck. Not familiar with breeder at all so some giant red flags to bail the deposit if it cant/wont be given back.

If you get to pick your puppy this a probable train wreck. There no chance any breeder I respect would allow you to choose in order of deposit or the super cute blue collar male. If either of these are in play walk away chalk it up to a learning experience. 

If you don't have the money to fly the pup or dog back to the breeder without or with a refund or they don't specify what happens if your in over your head walk away chalk it up to a learning experience. 

If the breeder did not tell you the last pairing produced a dog that fit into a intro working line for someone else or did not spend a significant amount of time on the phone with you asking about your household your expectations and experience level for you and your family walk away.

If the sire and or dam scare you a little or you wouldn't get into a closed kennel with them on pick up, walk away. Temperament is passed from the parents.

If they will let you have the pup at 7 weeks walk away.

Anythings is possible so who knows. However, as breeder of very strong working line dogs I use line breeding to stack the deck and cheat a bit to raise my percentages of getting the desired traits I want from the breeding. Your working the opposite angle here and that could be a big problem. Your betting a medium drive, medium or lower prey dog whose very social, relaxed and friendly and will have some decent protection later on from a litter that is by my interpretation for a more experienced handler and more experienced family. Nothing wrong playing the long odds except we have a living being involved, the pup.

Again anything is possible, but going into this situation without the understanding you can be quickly in over your head with drive levels is a big mistake all by itself. I wish the pup the best of luck and hope for a good outcome.


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## IllinoisNative

CometDog said:


> Well, definitely let the breeder pick the pup for you at least. And if they don't feel an appropriate one was produced, listen to their advice (if they are a good breeder they won't place a pup in an appropriate home, provided you have accurately described your situation and experience level).
> 
> I have always wanted a Czech dog, but knew it wasn't going to be a great fit in my household with 3 kids. After I lost my other rescued GSD, I had a longing for another GSD but this time I wanted a known breeding. A few pups popped up here and there but I was told (and I listened) not for a home where they will not be worked a lot. I was thinking my best chances of a good fit would be WGSL. I was browsing rescues a lot...then I got a call from a trusted trainer friend, who knew me and knew my life and said I know of a great Czech dog for you. He was raised until 5 months in a home that does puppy raising for the breeder. With 5 kids ages 6 to 16. "Medium drive" Way no way! Shut up and take my money! Took him home with the explicit condition I could bring him back to the breeder if it was an issue. Suffice to say he is staying
> 
> Even being labeled medium drive, he still needs a lot of work and would definitely be a disaster in the making if A) I did not have the time and money to invest in training.. B) I wasn't home a lot and had the time to practice the training I was taught and had the time to take him for exercise both physical and mental.
> 
> Even though he is medium drive, I can't let him free play with the kids yet. May be another 2 years before I can, may never be able to. He is not anything but playful towards them, but let unchecked he will take it to high levels of rambunctious. That I can accept and I do have the time to go out in the yard and supervise their frolicking and going about. Will you be ok with never ever leaving your dog and kids unsupervised for 2 year or much more? If you want a dog that can go skip out into the yard and play with your kids while you cook a meal, you probably won't get it from this pairing based on what the experienced are saying of this line.
> 
> I know you put a deposit, and I don't want to sound all negative..but I too grew up around "German Import" (who knows?) GSDs, and they were not like this dude I have here. Rotties are very different too. You asked for advice as a GSD novice, so I think everyone here is really trying to help make sure you go in the right direction for what you want.
> 
> Good luck with the pup and make sure to really research and invest in a really good GSD WL savvy trainer.


A-freaking-men. That's me and my puppy. I have a working line male, who probably isn't any where near what this breeding is, and it's been a challenge. I haven't really delved into his genetics to know. I went with a breeder I liked (and based on a recommendation) and asked for specific characteristics. I totally got what I wanted...and then some! I don't think I was fully prepared even though I thought I was. I've rescued and fostered rotties, chows, pits, and shepherds and none of the have challenged me like this dog. Rotties are much more mellow as are chows and pits. My shepherd is "on it."

I also can't leave him loose with kids yet. He's way too rambunctious even with appropriate exercise, etc. He's just a different breed...lol. My life revolves around him because of how much work and attention he requires. I'm willing to do the work and I love him to death...but it's been challenging and quite the learning experience. 

I wish the OP good luck with the new puppy. I know it was quite the eye-opener for me.


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## Bramble

Nothing really prepares you for owning a working line GSD except owning a working line GSD. Owners either rise to the challenge or they don't. I only had my boy for 2 years, but he taught me a lot, way more than I taught him I think


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## wolfstraum

konathegsd said:


> Oh wow that’s quick! Lucky you don’t have to wait too long. I’ve been waiting for 6+ months



most people have a hard time resisting a cute little puppy!!!! some people will research and wait for what they really need and some will just fall victim to puppy breath


Lee


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## eddie1976E

I know nothing about this breeder. But given what has been said here about the pairing, why would the breeder offer a puppy of this caliber to a novice? Mine is a working line DDR dog. I know nothing about pedigrees, but those on here who have looked at his pedigree have said very positive things about the pairing and the balance it had. I assume he is a typical working line dog, who the breeder said was going to be a handful due to his suspicious nature. I know how much work/training it has taken to get here. I can't imagine a breeding of the caliber that the OP got into.


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## thegooseman90

Just because some things are getting buried here I want to point something out. This isn't working line vs showline. This is on the extreme end LE or high sport type of dogs going to a novice pet home who may *POSSIBLY* do obedience training.


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## konathegsd

wolfstraum said:


> konathegsd said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh wow that’s quick! Lucky you don’t have to wait too long. I’ve been waiting for 6+ months
> 
> 
> 
> 
> most people have a hard time resisting a cute little puppy!!!! some people will research and wait for what they really need and some will just fall victim to puppy breath
> 
> 
> Lee
Click to expand...

This is true! By the time I get my next one I will have been waiting about a year....no big deal for me though.


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## Sabis mom

wolfstraum said:


> most people have a hard time resisting a cute little puppy!!!! some people will research and wait for what they really need and some will just fall victim to puppy breath
> 
> 
> Lee


This is why I stay away from puppies! Once they are in my arms, it's a safe bet they are coming home with me. Next pup will be picked by breeder and shipped(and will probably hate me) And I WILL listen to advice and recommendations by people who know more then me.


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## tim_s_adams

wolfstraum said:


> It really puzzles me when people come and ask for opinions and advice and absolutely ignore it.....the rules here prohibit
> "bashing" but it was pretty clear that no one thought that the first litter was likely to produce a suitable puppy for a novice with children....and the people answering were people who KNOW alot about the dogs involved and had nothing to gain with their advice....
> 
> again, all puppies are cute....*hopefully the genetics on that pup are not typical of the pedigree*


But in all likelihood they will be! OP, this may sound good to you now, but the puppies from this litter scare me, and I've worked with GSDs for most of my life! I'm pretty sure I could handle one successfully, but why would I want to, it just wouldn't fit my lifestyle! For that reason alone I wouldn't want one, and I have no little children at home anymore!

I'd forfeit the deposit and find a more appropriate litter if it were me...but if you're determined, would you mind sharing your thoughts on why?


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## onyx'girl

> t in all likelihood they will be! OP, this may sound good to you now, but the puppies from this litter scare me, and I've worked with GSDs for most of my life


Why would this scare you? I have seen high drive well bred pups be great active family pets. If the dogs can be good LEO K9's they should have clear head and off switch....and not be handler aggressive.
Though, it does depend on the handler in managing a dog that wants to work, and allow the dog to be able to keep active, mentally as well as physically.
If someone feels intimidated by a dogs pedigree, then by no means should they ever be involved in that dogs upbringing.
If you looked at either of my males pedigrees, I wonder if you would feel the same, or think they'd make great family companions as well as sport/work prospects?
That said, I do hope the breeder is being discerning on where the pups from this breeding match are placed.


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## GypsyGhost

onyx'girl said:


> Why would this scare you? I have seen high drive well bred pups be great active family pets. If the dogs can be good LEO K9's they should have clear head and off switch....and not be handler aggressive.
> Though, it does depend on the handler in managing a dog that wants to work, and allow the dog to be able to keep active, mentally as well as physically.
> If someone feels intimidated by a dogs pedigree, then by no means should they ever be involved in that dogs upbringing.
> If you looked at either of my males pedigrees, I wonder if you would feel the same, or think they'd make great family companions as well as sport/work prospects?
> That said, I do hope the breeder is being discerning on where the pups from this breeding match are placed.


I was just about to chime in that the pedigree looked extremely fun to me. I agree fully with everything you said. I’m not entirely sure it’s the right breeding for a novice, but we’re all novices at some point. A solid, stable WL dog is certainly no joke, and a dog with this breeding will certainly require some work, but there is no reason they cannot make good pets in the right hands.


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## wolfstraum

I certainly agree that working lines CAN make great family companions....I have 3 of them lying around my living room right now, as usual....

But there are several people who have posted who have actual first hand knowledge and information of the dogs in this pedigree....THOSE people are the ones who are trying to guide the OP away from a known quantity rather than people seeing names in a pedigree and recognizing them from competitive results......

Comes down to understanding who is making recommendations...........and actually thinking through information rather than looking for validation


Lee


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## tim_s_adams

onyx'girl said:


> Why would this scare you? I have seen high drive well bred pups be great active family pets. If the dogs can be good LEO K9's they should have clear head and off switch....and not be handler aggressive.
> Though, it does depend on the handler in managing a dog that wants to work, and allow the dog to be able to keep active, mentally as well as physically.
> If someone feels intimidated by a dogs pedigree, then by no means should they ever be involved in that dogs upbringing.
> If you looked at either of my males pedigrees, I wonder if you would feel the same, or think they'd make great family companions as well as sport/work prospects?
> That said, I do hope the breeder is being discerning on where the pups from this breeding match are placed.


I don't participate in dog sports of any kind, nor am I interested in starting now. So there's that. 
Just meeting these dog's needs seems to me is going to require a "job" of some kind...and at this point in my life that's not me ( nor the OP BTW). A working dog, especially from this breeding as @thegooseman90 and @wolfstraum pointed out in this thread initially, are not likely to be well suited to life as a family pet with no work...in particular the " inappropriate aggression" that is likely to be passed on from the sire would concern me if I didn't have a very clear plan to use that propensity in a constructive way. I know very well the kinds of issues people run into with their under stimulated and bored WL dogs. So yeah, the pups don't scare me, nor does the pedigree. 
What is scary is what happens when the puppies grow up without an appropriate outlet for their genetics...


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## onyx'girl

wolfstraum said:


> I certainly agree that working lines CAN make great family companions....I have 3 of them lying around my living room right now, as usual....
> 
> But there are several people who have posted who have actual first hand knowledge and information of the dogs in this pedigree....THOSE people are the ones who are trying to guide the OP away from a known quantity rather than people seeing names in a pedigree and recognizing them from competitive results......
> 
> Comes down to understanding who is making recommendations...........and actually thinking through information rather than looking for validation
> 
> 
> Lee


I guess it boils down to the breeder that makes that end decision...will they place their pup with a novice or decide that this is not a good match?


----------



## wolfstraum

onyx'girl said:


> I guess it boils down to the breeder that makes that end decision...will they place their pup with a novice or decide that this is not a good match?



LOL LOL You are assuming all breeders actually care...... from what I see, too many just want to sell them and put the money in their pockets.....and female pups are harder to "get rid of" ---- see it alllll the time!


Lee


----------



## GypsyGhost

wolfstraum said:


> I certainly agree that working lines CAN make great family companions....I have 3 of them lying around my living room right now, as usual....
> 
> But there are several people who have posted who have actual first hand knowledge and information of the dogs in this pedigree....THOSE people are the ones who are trying to guide the OP away from a known quantity rather than people seeing names in a pedigree and recognizing them from competitive results......
> 
> Comes down to understanding who is making recommendations...........and actually thinking through information rather than looking for validation
> 
> 
> Lee


I’m not saying this breeding is right or wrong for the OP. In my opinion, they have not given enough information to truly know if they know what they are getting into. Sure, if they expect to have to do nothing with this dog, this would not be the right breeding for them. This would not be the right BREED for them. But there are numerous Terror progeny out there that are pets. And there are numerous offspring training in multiple different venues, who are clear, stable and biddable. In the right hands, I don’t see what the problem is. I admit I am not as familiar with the bitch. Could you expand upon which dogs in the pedigree in particular are so worrisome for you?


----------



## wolfstraum

nope - can't do it.....not PC or within the rules


----------



## GypsyGhost

tim_s_adams said:


> I don't participate in dog sports of any kind, nor am I interested in starting now. So there's that.
> Just meeting these dog's needs seems to me is going to require a "job" of some kind...and at this point in my life that's not me ( nor the OP BTW). A working dog, especially from this breeding as @thegooseman90 and @wolfstraum pointed out in this thread initially, are not likely to be well suited to life as a family pet with no work...in particular the " inappropriate aggression" that is likely to be passed on from the sire would concern me if I didn't have a very clear plan to use that propensity in a constructive way. I know very well the kinds of issues people run into with their under stimulated and bored WL dogs. So yeah, the pups don't scare me, nor does the pedigree.
> What is scary is what happens when the puppies grow up without an appropriate outlet for their genetics...


Inappropriate aggression from the sire? What is your source for this information? Have you met any of his progeny and seen this first hand?


----------



## GypsyGhost

wolfstraum said:


> nope - can't do it.....not PC or within the rules


I really wish the people who have such great knowledge of pedigrees would share what they know. Instead, it is like pulling teeth to get information. How are people supposed to learn if no one is willing to share what they know?


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## WateryTart

wolfstraum said:


> I certainly agree that working lines CAN make great family companions....I have 3 of them lying around my living room right now, as usual....
> 
> But there are several people who have posted who have actual first hand knowledge and information of the dogs in this pedigree....THOSE people are the ones who are trying to guide the OP away from a known quantity rather than people seeing names in a pedigree and recognizing them from competitive results......
> 
> Comes down to understanding who is making recommendations...........and actually thinking through information rather than looking for validation
> 
> 
> Lee


So as someone who is in show lines and hopes to continue owning show lines but is open to considering a working line if that's the right dog for my chosen sport...I won't ask for specifics about the dogs or breeders, but have you spent significant time with them and is that where you're able to point to that not being a good litter for a first timer? Have you lived with them or any dogs closely related to them? 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## Kibs

onyx'girl said:


> Why would this scare you? I have seen high drive well bred pups be great active family pets. If the dogs can be good LEO K9's they should have clear head and off switch....and not be handler aggressive.
> Though, it does depend on the handler in managing a dog that wants to work, and allow the dog to be able to keep active, mentally as well as physically.
> If someone feels intimidated by a dogs pedigree, then by no means should they ever be involved in that dogs upbringing.
> If you looked at either of my males pedigrees, I wonder if you would feel the same, or think they'd make great family companions as well as sport/work prospects?
> That said, I do hope the breeder is being discerning on where the pups from this breeding match are placed.


Who knows? After some googling I found out who the breeder is and that you can find the puppies for sale right here. 
The breeders don't have their own website, but rather belong to a training org. Does not look like they care where their puppies go :shrug:


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## wolfstraum

WateryTart said:


> So as someone who is in show lines and hopes to continue owning show lines but is open to considering a working line if that's the right dog for my chosen sport...I won't ask for specifics about the dogs or breeders, but have you spent significant time with them and is that where you're able to point to that not being a good litter for a first timer? Have you lived with them or any dogs closely related to them?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk



people who train in IPO see many many dogs, train with people who work dogs in other clubs, see progeny and grandprogeny of certain males, see patterns in behavior, talk to people in other clubs, go to trials, seminars and events and they all talk about dogs.......... for example - lets think about another dog - not this one, a dog not mentioned here at all, that is in many many pedigrees that I have seen, and then I have observed at great length at least half dozen dogs who have this male in 1-3 generations and you can see patterns of behavior and temperament that carry through all these dogs you see, and then talk to others and hear of the same behaviors....it is a little like detective work....in this case I HAVE seen several progeny/grandprogeny of one dog discussed....and info on field and off field that make me believe that it is likely that the temperament will be less than ideal for a novice family with children.....all pups are lottery tickets and it ****could**** have a temperament not suggested by its pedigree....but it is a lottery ticket and children's well being is not something ***I**** would gamble with



Lee


----------



## WateryTart

wolfstraum said:


> people who train in IPO see many many dogs, train with people who work dogs in other clubs, see progeny and grandprogeny of certain males, see patterns in behavior, talk to people in other clubs, go to trials, seminars and events and they all talk about dogs..........there is a dog not mentioned here at all that is in many pedigrees that I have seen a half dozen dogs who have it in 1-3 generations and you see patterns that carry through all these dogs, and then talk to others and hear of the same behaviors....it is a little like detective work....in this case I HAVE seen several progeny/grandprogeny of one dog discussed....and info on field and off field that make me believe that it is likely that the temperament will be less than ideal for a novice family with children.....all pups are lottery tickets and it ****could**** have a temperament not suggested by its pedigree....but it is a lottery ticket and children's well being is not something ***I**** would gamble with
> 
> 
> 
> Lee


Got it, so you've trained and trialed with these dogs, or dogs closely related to them, and you picked up a lot of knowledge that way. Makes sense.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## tim_s_adams

GypsyGhost said:


> Inappropriate aggression from the sire? What is your source for this information? Have you met any of his progeny and seen this first hand?


I don't claim to know squat about pedigrees, so I I was going by what other posters said about them. And, of course got it wrong, the "inappropriate aggression" comes from the Dam's side ( see The first couple posts in the thread). The sire was referred to as a "real dog", which for me should send up HUGE red flags for ANYONE looking for a pet in a home with small children, and particularly if they don't have specific plans to work the dog in some venue or other. The inappropriate aggression coming in from the Dam's side would add to that concern for me... Does it sound like a good fit to you? Do you know theses dogs or their progeny personally?


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## onyx'girl

A novice buying off puppyfind is scary in itself. I will totally blame the breeder when the puppy is too much for this owner. ANY GSD, be it showline, working line or a poorly bred pet line is not going to be set up for success when there is no screening process on where the puppy goes. 
I'd rather have a high drive working line to deal with than a reactive showline or BYB bred. LOL


----------



## GypsyGhost

tim_s_adams said:


> I don't claim to know squat about pedigrees, so I I was going by what other posters said about them. And, of course got it wrong, the "inappropriate aggression" comes from the Dam's side ( see The first couple posts in the thread). The sire was referred to as a "real dog", which for me should send up HUGE red flags for ANYONE looking for a pet in a home with small children, and particularly if they don't have specific plans to work the dog in some venue or other. The inappropriate aggression coming in from the Dam's side would add to that concern for me... Does it sound like a good fit to you? Do you know theses dogs or their progeny personally?


Like I said previously, I don’t think the OP has provided enough information to make a judgement call either way on if this is a good fit for them. I don’t know what their day to day life consists of, or what they are hoping to have in a dog. Speaking in generalities, the right pet home with the right expectations could be a fine fit for a dog from this breeding. I have no idea if the OP is that right home.

I am familiar enough with the sire and his progeny to know that they are stable and clear headed. High drive, yes. The progeny that I am familiar with are doing well in multiple venues, as I mentioned previously.


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## konathegsd

Did op meet the sire/dam?


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## Rei

I wasn't aware that giving objective information on specific dogs within a pedigree, based off of personal experience, was "against the rules" :shrug:


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## tim_s_adams

GypsyGhost said:


> Like I said previously, I don’t think the OP has provided enough information to make a judgement call either way on if this is a good fit for them. I don’t know what their day to day life consists of, or what they are hoping to have in a dog. Speaking in generalities, the right pet home with the right expectations could be a fine fit for a dog from this breeding. I have no idea if the OP is that right home.
> 
> I am familiar enough with the sire and his progeny to know that they are stable and clear headed. High drive, yes. The progeny that I am familiar with are doing well in multiple venues, as I mentioned previously.


Here's what the OP stated at the beginning of the thread:



> Looking for a family pet (have young kids)even tempered, drive, possibly going to do obedience. Wanting WL vs SL.


Does it sound like a good fit to you? As @thegooseman90 stated, this is sort of an extreme WL breeding. If I were looking for a sport dog, or an LE dog, I'd be excited to get one. But for a home with small children...with no plans to work the dog...just seems like the most likely outcome won't be good for either of them. 

There's always the exception...who knows? I was really hoping to hear back from the OP as to why, in spite of such strong warnings, he/she decided to move forward with this particular litter. Could be it's a very well thought out descision...I hope they'll share that with us so we can all understand better!


----------



## GypsyGhost

tim_s_adams said:


> Here's what the OP stated at the beginning of the thread:
> 
> 
> 
> Does it sound like a good fit to you? As @thegooseman90 stated, this is sort of an extreme WL breeding. If I were looking for a sport dog, or an LE dog, I'd be excited to get one. But for a home with small children...with no plans to work the dog...just seems like the most likely outcome won't be good for either of them.
> 
> There's always the exception...who knows? I was really hoping to hear back from the OP as to why, in spite of such strong warnings, he/she decided to move forward with this particular litter. Could be it's a very well thought out descision...I hope they'll share that with us so we can all understand better!


I don’t really know how many times you want me to repeat the same thing. If the OP expects to do absolutely nothing with their dog and have everything turn out ok, this is the wrong BREED for them, not just the wrong breeding. I have no idea what they actually intend on doing, as they have given no further information. “Maybe some obedience” could mean formal, competitive obedience, or just the basics for pet manners to the OP. I have no idea. 

I know plenty of people who have kids with very high drive dogs, from “serious” breedings. If the dogs are clear headed, not reactive and stable, they can be fine in a pet home as long as their needs are met and the adults are at least somewhat dog savvy. That was the point I was trying to make. My girl has a pedigree that would apparently terrify a lot of people, but if they met her, they would see how biddable, stable and clear she is. She would be too much for someone who wanted a couch potato, but she would have done fine in an active pet home. She has the dreaded Asko in her pedigree, and I can tell you she has no inappropriate aggression of which to speak. Sometimes you need to go out and see the dogs rather than take the word of someone on the internet. A lot of these dogs that bring certain traits were bred to anything and everything, because they were the popular sire of the time. Of course that kind of indiscriminate breeding is going to produce some not great things. I’m not trying to discount the importance of understanding what is behind a dog, but what is in front of you is just as important.


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## cloudpump

tim_s_adams said:


> As @thegooseman90 stated, this is sort of an extreme WL breeding. If I were looking for a sport dog, or an LE dog, I'd be excited to get one. But for a home with small children...with no plans to work the dog...just seems like the most likely outcome won't be good for either of them.


If the dog is biddable and loyal, as a gsd should be, theres no reason the kids wouldn't be fine. Both of my gsds are wl. One is higher prey. The other is higher defense. Both are pushy jerks. But they adore my daughter. No matter what antics she's up to. 
They've both shown aggression. But not to any member of the house.
Obviously I don't leave them with her alone, as no parent should with a 3 year old, but I don't fear for her. I trust the genetics of the breed. 

In no way am I saying this is the right dog for the owner, but I am saying a stable dog is a stable dog that will show the genetic traits of a gsd.


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## tim_s_adams

I've worked with several dogs that went on to have very successful careers in LE, so I do understand the balance of drives and temperment required for that kind of work. I have not done sport work ever, so for me that's a bit less clear. But, I agree 100% that it "could" work out fine...but it's not a litter I would select for a family with no plan for working the pup, and with little kids. That's why I was asking and hoping th OP would share their thoughts on their choice here. Very possible it's a well thought out descision and we can all learn from it!


----------



## cloudpump

tim_s_adams said:


> I've worked with several dogs that went on to have very successful careers in LE, so I do understand the balance of drives and temperment required for that kind of work. I have not done sport work ever, so for me that's a bit less clear. But, I agree 100% that it "could" work out fine...but it's not a litter I would select for a family with no plan for working the pup, and with little kids. That's why I was asking and hoping th OP would share their thoughts on their choice here. Very possible it's a well thought out descision and we can all learn from it!


Curious, in what capacity did you work with the dogs that went on to be LE dogs?


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## MineAreWorkingline

cloudpump said:


> If the dog is biddable and loyal, as a gsd should be, theres no reason the kids wouldn't be fine. Both of my gsds are wl. One is higher prey. The other is higher defense. Both are pushy jerks. But they adore my daughter. No matter what antics she's up to.
> They've both shown aggression. But not to any member of the house.
> Obviously I don't leave them with her alone, as no parent should with a 3 year old, but I don't fear for her. I trust the genetics of the breed.
> 
> In no way am I saying this is the right dog for the owner, but I am saying a stable dog is a stable dog that will show the genetic traits of a gsd.


As kids, our family had a GSD with a ton of aggression, coincidentally, so did my best friend's family. These GSDs were never a problem with the immediate families, but when it came to outsiders, that was a whole other ball game. My concern would be other kids going in and out of the house, leaving doors and gates open or unsecured, and other responsibilities that go hand in hand with owning this breed especially a dog with the propensity for high aggression as with this pedigree.


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## tim_s_adams

cloudpump said:


> Curious, in what capacity did you work with the dogs that went on to be LE dogs?


I was technically an assistant trainer back then..


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## Rei

Since when did calling a dog "real" (not a fan of the terminology but that's for another day) equate to being bad with kids anyway? 

Here's my story for the thread: my introduction to working lines was/is a male from a local breeder recommended to me by the board, 9 years ago. No WUSV dogs in his pedigree, the breeder titled the dogs at a club level, and they were welcoming and supportive. Overall it seemed like a great fit for a beginner like me. Yet I ended up with a dog that had fairly severe resource guarding issues, excessive amounts of defensive aggression, general inappropriate aggression towards me, and a great degree of hardness. Later I learned that his sire and those lines were known for producing sharp dogs. Love him to death and am grateful for all I've learned from him, and I don't blame the breeders at all, but the pedigree itself just was not the best match for what I wanted. 

Fast forward to now, my youngest GSD is from a competitive sport/working breeding. Quardes Staatsmacht in the pedigree (half brother to Terror through the dam), the sire has been very successful in IPO and has also been described as a very "real" dog. The dam is no slouch either and I did get my dog for IPO this time around. And while she has high drives across the board in food, toy, prey, pack, etc. she is a joy to be around. Eternally happy, ecstatic to do as I ask, easily motivated, thinks the world revolves around me. Not an ounce of inappropriate aggression towards people but is doing very well in the sport even in my novice, fumbling hands. If we quit IPO tomorrow she would be fine as an active pet dog. 

Obviously I'm not saying there is no such thing as a pedigree being more or less suitable for a novice owner - in fact, I firmly believe that genetics play a larger role than anything else. I also don't necessarily think this is the most suitable pedigree (I like Terror a great deal but know absolutely nothing about the dam line). But it seems like a lot of people are alarmed by the success of the dogs in the pedigree or descriptors such as "real"/"serious" without taking into consideration traits such as steady nerves, clarity, biddability, etc. I appreciate those who have voiced their concern and at least cited which dogs they were worried about and why.

To the OP, I messaged you with with a couple names of people who have owned full siblings to this litter. Hope that helps and you're able to get into contact with them.


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## Shepdad

Rei said:


> To the OP, I messaged you with with a couple names of people who have owned full siblings to this litter. Hope that helps and you're able to get into contact with them.


This does seem like a repeat breeding. Another one was done in May 2016 according to pdbase and the puppies carried the Staatsmacht kennel name. The dam is not on the Staatsmacht web site anymore though. Does any one know why? When you say "have owned" the full siblings does that mean they no longer own them?

Another interesting tidbit from pdbase is when the German kennel was trying to sell the dam as a puppy, they had this to say:
"Something more than normal puppies! very persistent attentive, persistent, strong-willed, very adaptable 
Pure performance bloodline , anatomically very well predisposed. 


Christel is very lively, curious and a daredevil!"


----------



## Rei

Shepdad said:


> This does seem like a repeat breeding. Another one was done in May 2016 according to pdbase and the puppies carried the Staatsmacht kennel name. The dam is not on the Staatsmacht web site anymore though. Does any one know why? When you say "have owned" the full siblings does that mean they no longer own them?


You're correct, the dam is no longer owned by Staatsmacht and as far as I know, this new litter will not be under the Staatsmacht kennel name but the previous breeding was. 

I say "have owned" the full siblings because I do not personally know these owners or the dogs, just saw through Facebook and the working dog site that they are the owners. But I also understand that dogs get sold, rehomed, washed, pass away, etc. so I really can't say for sure if they still own these dogs. Hope that explains it!


----------



## tim_s_adams

Rei said:


> Since when did calling a dog "real" (not a fan of the terminology but that's for another day) equate to being bad with kids anyway?


When someone, who is actively involved in sport competition with a dog describes their dog this way, what does it mean to you? Just curious....

I don't think anyone is saying anything bad about the breeding here, it's awesome! Just doesn't seem like a good fit for the stated objectives of the new owner ....


----------



## GatorDog

I would also love to hear examples of such unstable, inappropriately tempered progeny. I always find it entertaining to hear of the few “unknown outliers” based on hundreds of dogs produced. 

I have an entire litter from a Quardes son (half sibling to Terror through the dam), four of which are in homes with very young children. No issues so to speak. My safest, most stable dog, goes back to Quardes on top and Asko on bottom. If I wanted to go based off vague fear mongering posts from this forum, I guess I’d end up with no dogs at all. Unless maybe it was purchased from one of the breeders here, of course ?*♀


----------



## carmspack

Nurse2b said:


> We did end up looking and putting down a deposit on a female from the first pedigree I inquired about.
> 
> I hope that I can utilize this message board to learn as much as I can and get advice as needed.
> 
> Thank you all for your responses, advice, and comments so far.


Why?

the second option was , as Lee ms Wolfstraum said - may as well have been a different breed .

not even apples to apples in comparison.

Why put down a deposit on a combination that many well respected , knowledgeable , breeder-trainers with years of experience voiced opinions that the combination was not suitable for the average pet home . 

Okay , so you got good advice.
You chose not to listen.
Yet you hope that when you run into difficulty that the forum will help you out -- 

at this point this is where you should be relying on the BREEDER and their trainers to step in .

you paid them . Extended interest and support to get the best out of and for the pup is part of that fee.

did they ask you any questions to determine if you were suitable. Do breeders not say no , I don't think so , not this litter , or is everything reduced to a can you pay ? transaction.


----------



## wolfstraum

GatorDog said:


> *I would also love to hear examples of such unstable, inappropriately tempered progeny. <<<snip>>>> If I wanted to go based off vague fear mongering posts from this forum, I guess I’d end up with no dogs at all. Unless maybe it was purchased from one of the breeders here, of course* ?*♀



And this is EXACTLY WHY I will NOT discuss dogs by name, pedigrees by name etc....it gets taken personally - people will overlook that there are risk factors, that the risks ARE from the "outliers" - I always talk about lottery tickets, possibilities and chances based on individuals - tons of good dogs have "Huck" in their pedigree for example - but "Huck" attacked his owner and put him in the hospital - if I used "Huck's" real name - 10 people would jump down my throat......if I used the real names in the young dog's pedigree who recently broke out of their house, got into the neighbor's yard then house and totally, LITERALLY!, tore apart their small dog (yes, it barked at the GSD), and described the nature of this dog and his sire - again - I would be bombarded wtih angry people whose dogs are veritable angels with the same lines.... 

Asko is fine used wisely IMO....and there - I fly in the face of those who are wary of him.....just like my example above


Lee


----------



## carmspack

wolfstraum said:


> It really puzzles me when people come and ask for opinions and advice and absolutely ignore it.....the rules here prohibit
> "bashing" but it was pretty clear that no one thought that the first litter was likely to produce a suitable puppy for a novice with children....and the people answering were people who KNOW alot about the dogs involved and had nothing to gain with their advice....
> 
> again, all puppies are cute....hopefully the genetics on that pup are not typical of the pedigree



Totally agree Lee . I hadn't read further into the thread before posting .

total ignore .

time line - first post jan 27 close to 11:30 pm.
post announcing deposit jan 28 - 5:30 pm

that is not even 24 hours to consider what the advice was 

what is the urgency ? This is not the last litter ever for the next decade.

I "liked" the post with the ASL --- that would have been an option !

the point is to look for a good and suitable dog. A candidate from "working" lines
could have been an option --- but lots of "working" lines are not the balanced dogs
for utilitarian use -- they have become sporting/trialing dogs - a selection for other
attributes - leaning more to an extreme .

the people that you ignored , are they going to be eager to get involved when problems begin.


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## carmspack

quote " but going into this situation without the understanding you can be quickly in over your head with drive levels is a big mistake all by itself"

exactly --


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## carmspack

quote "
I have an entire litter from a Quardes son (half sibling to Terror through the dam)


but Terror and Quardes SIRES are significantly different !!!

Quades sire - Agent Agent vom Wolfsheim

Terror's sire Eliot Eliot von Prevent

and the "entire litter " is from a Quardes SON which brings in a lot of other considerations 
one being the dam of that SON
and the female he was bred to -- your dam


----------



## GatorDog

wolfstraum said:


> And this is EXACTLY WHY I will NOT discuss dogs by name, pedigrees by name etc....it gets taken personally - people will overlook that there are risk factors, that the risks ARE from the "outliers" - I always talk about lottery tickets, possibilities and chances based on individuals - tons of good dogs have "Huck" in their pedigree for example - but "Huck" attacked his owner and put him in the hospital - if I used "Huck's" real name - 10 people would jump down my throat......if I used the real names in the young dog's pedigree who recently broke out of their house, got into the neighbor's yard then house and totally, LITERALLY!, tore apart their small dog (yes, it barked at the GSD), and described the nature of this dog and his sire - again - I would be bombarded wtih angry people whose dogs are veritable angels with the same lines....
> 
> Asko is fine used wisely IMO....and there - I fly in the face of those who are wary of him.....just like my example above
> 
> 
> Lee


What about it is personal? You said you have examples of bad ones, and someone else can say they have examples of good ones. A negative review should be substantiated by factual argument, is my only point. I could go on just as many threads and say “Well, I know a dog from so and so Breeder who produces or breeds dogs without good temperament”, and it would be deleted and referred through PM only. The rules seem to bend in a different favor for some..


----------



## GatorDog

carmspack said:


> quote "
> I have an entire litter from a Quardes son (half sibling to Terror through the dam)
> 
> 
> but Terror and Quardes SIRES are significantly different !!!
> 
> Quades sire - Agent Agent vom Wolfsheim
> 
> Terror's sire Eliot Eliot von Prevent
> 
> and the "entire litter " is from a Quardes SON which brings in a lot of other considerations
> one being the dam of that SON
> and the female he was bred to -- your dam


This further validated my point. Unless the people providing insight are referring to direct siblings to this breeding referenced in the OP, than making a generalization based on a small percentage of what one heavily used stud may have produced should not bear any weight here.


----------



## wolfstraum

GatorDog said:


> What about it is personal? You said you have examples of bad ones, and someone else can say they have examples of good ones. A negative review should be substantiated by factual argument, is my only point. I could go on just as many threads and say “Well, I know a dog from so and so Breeder who produces or breeds dogs without good temperament”, and it would be deleted and referred through PM only. The rules seem to bend in a different favor for some..


Been there done that too many times. Always ends up in arguments and hard feelings. I don't like certain dogs. Said so about one dog and stated why....person who bred to dog who was a friend was so pissed off about what I said, which info I got from 3 separate sources in Europe (and BTW was totally borne out as the litters from the dog matured!!!!), argued with me and friendship over.....same person said that sire of one of mine was total junk and she never saw a good dog by him - well maybe she didn't - but she never saw mine - and everyone who did said she was the BEST progeny they had ever seen of her sire....except the cops - they had lots of good offspring of the dog! I did not bear HER or another member here animosity over it - just proved that they were wrong through the progeny and grandprogeny.....even the owner of the sire stated that he was told by quite a few people about my female and how good she was....in the case of THAT dog - she and the police dogs were the outliers! But I did not snark at them and argue and pout over their dismissal, and now people look at that female's pedigree and see all the positives, ignoring the sire's name.

I went and looked up a couple of pedigrees after my post citing the judge whose dog put him in hospital 3x....."Huck" and not surprisingly - he is grandsire of the youngster who killed the small neighbor dog while his owner was house sitting....and a major element in the original poster's pedigree....

Posting names is a surefire way to start personal animosity as people take it personally!!!! 

Lee


----------



## carmspack

GatorDog

I disagree . It does not validate your point , just the opposite .
You are comparing a Quardes grandson to a Terror son.
First of all , as I said , their respective sires bring in a whole different world of genetics.
Secondly your litter that you are happy with are Quardes grandprogeny . There are many
additional lines which modify the outcome of the pups.
Depending on the dam's lines, the selection in line breeding all have an effect.

The comments and recommendations made to the OP directly involve that particular sire , that particular dam . The comments are based upon deep pedigree knowledge - not just the first generation .


"Quote:
Originally Posted by carmspack View Post
quote "
I have an entire litter from a Quardes son (half sibling to Terror through the dam)

but Terror and Quardes SIRES are significantly different !!!

Quades sire - Agent Agent vom Wolfsheim

Terror's sire Eliot Eliot von Prevent

and the "entire litter " is from a Quardes SON which brings in a lot of other considerations 
one being the dam of that SON
and the female he was bred to -- your dam

This further validated my point. Unless the people providing insight are referring to direct siblings to this breeding referenced in the OP, than making a generalization based on a small percentage of what one heavily used stud may have produced should not bear any weight here.
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## Steve Strom

There's no doubt people take things personally with dogs, and a lot of the time it does come down to what someone likes vs someone else's preference. I wouldn't take it personally though if the OP chose to listen to someone else's opinion and didn't look at this as a case of needing advise. I'd bet that for every Huck story, they could have come across enough first time owners and family's with dogs bred by this kennel that are just fine.


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## Rana

All, I will qualify by admitting my experience by saying I am not a breeder nor a trainer, but have had GSDs and have worked them in PP. 2 of them were Show lines - when they were still GSDs.. I have my first WL GSD male now - have posted his pedigree on a different thread - all I can say is that it is as if he is a totally different breed. My trainer, when he first evaluated him as a little 10 week old puppy said -"hope you realize this dog is way more than both your previous dogs put together" - and they were pretty tough dogs and on several occasions had stepped in to get us out of a dicey real life situation. My WL male is different to stay the least - to give you an example - he was shipped by my breeder (who gave me exactly what I asked for) from across the country - NW US at 8 weeks - we (my wife, our other dog - a female mix who is no pushover herself but that is a different story, and I) picked him up at mid night. He was calm no issues till my other dog tried to assert herself and he would have none of that. Next day (12 hours later) - we were out in our yard and we had some workmen come in to fix our AC unit and this little fur ball goes charging up to them barking - the men said - thank God he is only a little guy! He is 2 now, great with kids, very neutral to strangers, and starting to show his serious side that I saw when we first got him. Environmentaly sound - like sit out on the porch with his sister (yes the same female mentioned before) and watch 4th of July fireworks, go through obstacle courses -
tunnels, swaying planks, 8 ft A frames. His energy level is crazy but thankfully has an off switch (most of the times once he has been worked - like tongue hanging out and panting hard worked). I guess, the point I am making is that we were NOT prepared for him and we had to adjust really fast to what we got. Not sure if it is a WL thing or him in particular due to his bloodlines. I will leave that up the experts - but I do agree with what they say - be careful what you ask for as you just might get it and then you must deal with it for all your sake otherwise you are asking for problems and it is NOT FAIR to the dog.


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## CometDog

MineAreWorkingline said:


> As kids, our family had a GSD with a ton of aggression, coincidentally, so did my best friend's family. These GSDs were never a problem with the immediate families, but when it came to outsiders, that was a whole other ball game. My concern would be other kids going in and out of the house, leaving doors and gates open or unsecured, and other responsibilities that go hand in hand with owning this breed especially a dog with the propensity for high aggression as with this pedigree.


This. I am THE house all the kids come to. "All" the kids being 2 or 3 friends total, but still. With 2 disabled boys and being a parent with joint custody so a single parent 50% of the time , I can't go places easily so my house has to be hang out for my typical daughters and her friends. Even though both of my dogs, almost 8 months and 11 months visibly like children, they are not unsupervised around any kids, yet. They play, but supervised by me. Depending how the GSD matures out over the next 1.5 to 2 years I may never leave him to play in the yard and such with other kids unsupervised. 

The little pit mix IS Petey from the Little rascals. And even though little Ruger is the quintessential kid dog, I am still letting him mature before he romps with the kids in the fenced in yard alone.

Rules in my house-GSD dog is either crated or under my supervision when friends are over. It is usually under my supervision since I try to avoid crating when I am home. My GSD, through having him leashed to me in the house during the bonding period, follows me room to room anyway. The little pit is a bit busier, but he is also loving, timid. He gets more leeway for being in the house. The GSD is curious and LIKES the kids..he needs me there all the time though, he is definitely assertive with play . I monitor and see what will need training and/or managing. It is a big commitment and if you are not willing to do it, I think a WL GSD with potential wonderful high drive is not good for a first time GSD owner with kids. Unless you are commited to 110% vigilance and committed to being under the tutelage of a trainer who knows these dogs.

I'd have to say at this point OP may or may not come back for puppy shark advice. or the 8 month old "what happened to my good dog" stage. Or the 18 month old "what happened to my good dog stage"..

My only hope is A) the breeder knows what they are doing with placement B) OP was upfront about experience and home life so said breeder had correct info to make decisions. 

Even reflecting back on GSDs I have had or have been around that didn't have this kind of kick butt pedigree...they are a mouthy breed.My friend had a dog that use to be out playing with us kids. Dress up, football on our street, manhunt, you name it.. when I was growing up. He went out the door with his boy and went back in when he did. He was THAT dog that people would see in movies about kids and their dog. This one time one of the kids was in a 4 ft above ground pool participating in making a whirlpool. This was making the dog a little concerned. He jumped up and grabbed her arm, not in a mean or intentionally injurious way, more in a heightened play state tug kind of way. She was bleeding, parents were mad. That was in the 70s, much less litigious society. 

They will herd kids. They do communicate with ...uh...oral physicality..more than other breeds. It is all just stuff to consider when picking a breed, lines of the breed, and breeders.


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## Steve Strom

Quoted from here: https://www.staatsmacht.com/males


> Terror is in my opinion the best male that I have produce in my breeding program. He has the characteristics of the old German Shepherd. He is loyal, strong, social, and have an unbelievable working drive. He is the son of Eliot Prevent and Gracia von der Staatsmacht(daughter of Olex de Valsory). Multiple helpers have test Terror and the opinion is the same, no one can believe the strength of his grips and pressure on the helper. Terror is not a dog that you will see on a high trial, he is a real serious dog, with his own mind. He has potential to produce top working abilities. He is neutral to other dogs and people, but is serious about work.


I've seen his open invitation to anyone to come see his dogs in person and make up their own minds so you don't have to go on the he said, she said stuff that always comes up with dogs. Anybody ?


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## Steve Strom

Shepdad said:


> This does seem like a repeat breeding. Another one was done in May 2016 according to pdbase and the puppies carried the Staatsmacht kennel name. The dam is not on the Staatsmacht web site anymore though. Does any one know why? When you say "have owned" the full siblings does that mean they no longer own them?
> 
> Another interesting tidbit from pdbase is when the German kennel was trying to sell the dam as a puppy, they had this to say:
> "Something more than normal puppies! very persistent attentive, persistent, strong-willed, very adaptable
> Pure performance bloodline , anatomically very well predisposed.
> 
> 
> Christel is very lively, curious and a daredevil!"


Just from hunting around the internet, I get the idea this is someone who has a relationship with Staatsmacht, going from owner to training and now to breeding. I may be wrong, but its possible this was something arranged to be workable for someone new. Stable, well behaved dogs from the previous breedings. Something along those lines.


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## Shepdad

> Terror is in my opinion the best male that I have produce in my breeding program. He has the characteristics of the old German Shepherd. He is loyal, strong, social, and have an unbelievable working drive. He is the son of Eliot Prevent and Gracia von der Staatsmacht(daughter of Olex de Valsory). Multiple helpers have test Terror and the opinion is the same, no one can believe the strength of his grips and pressure on the helper. Terror is not a dog that you will see on a high trial, he is a real serious dog, *with his own mind*. He has potential to produce top working abilities. He is neutral to other dogs and people, but is serious about work.


 - from the breeder of the sire



> Something more than normal puppies! very persistent attentive, *persistent, strong-willed*, very adaptable


 - from the breeder of the dam



> Looking for a GSD puppy. All my pets have been rescues so far. So I’m not really savvy on what I’m looking at as far as pedigrees go. Looking for a family pet (have young kids)even tempered, drive, possibly going to do obedience. Wanting WL vs SL.


 - the OP

This is the Internet, so what we have are clues to piece together information available. From a practical standpoint, Rei already gave good advice to the OP to contact owners in a Facebook group of full siblings from a previous litter. The OP seems determined to get the puppy. Fine. 

At this point, the discussion we are having is fun but also perhaps educational to future puppy buyers. Everything is a probability. From the information available from this whole thread there is a higher probability than not, that the puppy might end being too much for the owner. A probability not a certainty. There is also of course a possibility that the owner gets a milder puppy from a litter with a range of temperaments. The owner also said she has owned rescues and some rescues are actually a ton more difficult dogs. So it is also a possibility that the OP will be able to handle the situation. Since the OP has owned rescues I have it on faith that she will do right with the dog if the probabilities don't fall in her favor. We are all dog lovers here so we always try to steer people away from situations where the dog ends up the loser.


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## GatorDog

Steve Strom said:


> Quoted from here: https://www.staatsmacht.com/males I've seen his open invitation to anyone to come see his dogs in person and make up their own minds so you don't have to go on the he said, she said stuff that always comes up with dogs. Anybody ?


 Yup! ((Raises hand)) ?


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## Shepdad

"Terror is not a dog that you will see on a high trial, he is a real serious dog, with his own mind."

Just to keep this discussion going since it is on the bloodlines and pedigrees forum and it is informational in its own right. I think everyone who has ever done schutzhund knows exactly what this sentence means but people who have not might not.

First of this kennel has access to literally the best handlers in the world. So what the sentence is basically saying is that the best handlers in the world are incapable of handling the dog to the precision required in high trials. This implies that the dog is extremely dominant. Too dominant even for experts who are used to such types of dogs.

Now my question to the breeders and experts in this forum. Is this trait passed on to the puppies in a litter? 

The dam has also been described as strong willed. An extremely dominant male bred to a strong willed female. What would you expect to see in a litter?


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## holland

The OP asked for people opinions on the litter and people gave them and she made a decision. Just because opinions are offered doesn't mean people are going to take them. Personally think Steve's post of going to visit the stud is a great idea. He certainly is a good looking stud, I think. Hope all goes well for the OP


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## thegooseman90

Shepdad I believe you were part of the asko discussion not too long ago. I'd expect these pups to be typical asko pups as ferro, although less talked about, is said to produce similar pups. This is credited a lot to haska, their mother. They have different sires. Yoschy, on the sires side, has also been credited for some handler aggression and we haven't even talked about him yet. 
All of this within the first 3 generations. I haven't even looked further than that.

I liked that you quoted Stefans thoughts regarding terror. I mentioned them earlier as well. Someone should quote his thoughts on asko sons and gransons as well. They're not very hard to find. Suffice it to say that everyone agrees this is not a good pup for OP's intended use. At the very least it's a huge waste of potential for the dog and at the worst it's an accident waiting to happen.


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## Steve Strom

> "Terror is not a dog that you will see on a high trial, he is a real serious dog, with his own mind."


Describes my dog. So what? Don't trial him and all the other pieces are what you'll see. Loyal, social, etc... But its still all subjective. That's why "Like" pops up all the time.


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## carmspack

Shepdad said:


> "Terror is not a dog that you will see on a high trial, he is a real serious dog, with his own mind."
> 
> Just to keep this discussion going since it is on the bloodlines and pedigrees forum and it is informational in its own right. I think everyone who has ever done schutzhund knows exactly what this sentence means but people who have not might not.
> 
> First of this kennel has access to literally the best handlers in the world. So what the sentence is basically saying is that the best handlers in the world are incapable of handling the dog to the precision required in high trials. This implies that the dog is extremely dominant. Too dominant even for experts who are used to such types of dogs.
> 
> Now my question to the breeders and experts in this forum. Is this trait passed on to the puppies in a litter?
> 
> The dam has also been described as strong willed. An extremely dominant male bred to a strong willed female. What would you expect to see in a litter?



good post -- leading to further lines of enquiry -- such as this - taken from the Staatsmacht site 

" He has the characteristics of the old German Shepherd."

is he ? does he ?

what happened to biddable and tractable , guideability

It is the OLD virtues which are "legendary" and exactly what people hope to get -- especially the new-to-the-breed -- 

shepherd says - dog you do this --- dog says -- oh yeah you and whose army -- I take you down and don't dare ask me again to do something .


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## Steve Strom

Or maybe he doesn't want to heel nice in protection.


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## Shepdad

Steve Strom said:


> Describes my dog. So what? Don't trial him and all the other pieces are what you'll see. Loyal, social, etc... But its still all subjective. That's why "Like" pops up all the time.


Of course.


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## Steve Strom

thegooseman90 said:


> Shepdad I believe you were part of the asko discussion not too long ago. I'd expect these pups to be typical asko pups as ferro, although less talked about, is said to produce similar pups. This is credited a lot to haska, their mother. They have different sires. Yoschy, on the sires side, has also been credited for some handler aggression and we haven't even talked about him yet.
> All of this within the first 3 generations. I haven't even looked further than that.
> 
> I liked that you quoted Stefans thoughts regarding terror. I mentioned them earlier as well. Someone should quote his thoughts on asko sons and gransons as well. They're not very hard to find. Suffice it to say that everyone agrees this is not a good pup for OP's intended use. At the very least it's a huge waste of potential for the dog and at the worst it's an accident waiting to happen.


Lords in there too. Doesn't everyone agree he's the cure for nerves?


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## thegooseman90

Nerves aren't the issue for this pairing. With an experienced handler and the right job most of these pups would do very well. They'll still have the growing pains people know and hate from asko/ferro but the right handler knows how to deal with them. A novice pet home handler probably doesn't. This is the kinda dog you have to worry about stepping on in the middle of the night. The kinda dog that will likely come back up the leash pretty quickly. It's not that they're bad dogs but I don't think they're the best fit for ops goals and experience level.


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## carmspack

Yoschy, on the sires side, has also been credited for some handler aggression and we haven't even talked about him yet

Yoschy has been discussed in other threads over the years . A little Yoschy goes a long way -- and you want to look at who he was bred to


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## GatorDog

Shepdad said:


> "Terror is not a dog that you will see on a high trial, he is a real serious dog, with his own mind."
> 
> Just to keep this discussion going since it is on the bloodlines and pedigrees forum and it is informational in its own right. I think everyone who has ever done schutzhund knows exactly what this sentence means but people who have not might not.
> 
> First of this kennel has access to literally the best handlers in the world. So what the sentence is basically saying is that the best handlers in the world are incapable of handling the dog to the precision required in high trials. This implies that the dog is extremely dominant. Too dominant even for experts who are used to such types of dogs.
> 
> Now my question to the breeders and experts in this forum. Is this trait passed on to the puppies in a litter?
> 
> The dam has also been described as strong willed. An extremely dominant male bred to a strong willed female. What would you expect to see in a litter?



Top producer for the BSP 2017 - 1st Terror von der Staatsmacht 9.09 %
4 Quardes, 2 Terror and 2 Trojan von der Staatsmacht progeny at 2017 WUSV, with the winner being Debbie vom Eisernen Kreuz, a Quardes DAUGHTER and a full littermate to Dexter vom Eisernen Kreuz, USCA National Champion of the same year.

I heard the same handler aggression and crazy outliers about Quardes progeny as well, but when you want to take a percentage based off of the high number of production, considering the wide use of the dogs as stud, you are going to have some variation.


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## thegooseman90

carmspack said:


> Yoschy, on the sires side, has also been credited for some handler aggression and we haven't even talked about him yet
> 
> Yoschy has been discussed in other threads over the years . A little Yoschy goes a long way -- and you want to look at who he was bred to


I meant in the context of this pedigree it hadn't been discussed. If you see it otherwise and think that this is a balanced pet home breeding I won't argue it. Im not saying they'll be bad dogs or that any individual dog in the pedigree is bad but they bring certain traits to the table that are undesirable in pet dogs. Even more so to a novice owner who may or may not do obedience training.


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## Steve Strom

thegooseman90 said:


> Nerves aren't the issue for this pairing. With an experienced handler and the right job most of these pups would do very well. They'll still have the growing pains people know and hate from asko/ferro but the right handler knows how to deal with them. A novice pet home handler probably doesn't. This is the kinda dog you have to worry about stepping on in the middle of the night. The kinda dog that will likely come back up the leash pretty quickly. It's not that they're bad dogs but I don't think they're the best fit for ops goals and experience level.


The point is that there's nothing "Everyone " agrees on. There are no absolutes like that.


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## Steve Strom

Yoschy's all over one of mines pedigree and the one thing he is, is good pet. Maybe there's more then just 3 people that know how to breed? Anyone here seen the 2 dogs this puppies from, in person?


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## thegooseman90

Steve Strom said:


> Yoschy's all over one of mines pedigree and the one thing he is, is good pet. Maybe there's more then just 3 people that know how to breed? Anyone here seen the 2 dogs this puppies from, in person?


This is apples to oranges here Steve. Last I remembered you work your dog and aren't a novice owner. I'm guessing in other less experienced "pet" hands doc may not be the "pet" he is for you. 

Even more apples to oranges is comparing yoschy to asko/ferro types. Your dog having yoschy is not the same as op having ferro. Two completely different situations. Yoschy may produce some handler aggression but inappropriate aggression in youngsters is a hallmark of these other dogs. Most of them do grow out of it but how many pet homes are equipped to deal with that for the 2-3 years that takes to happen??


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## Steve Strom

I'm not talking about Doc. That's Chaos swimming with Yoschy. But Doc's even worse. Don't tell anyone, but he's got Crok.


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## thegooseman90

Wait a second.... you don't think I'm dog bashing do you? I have zero issue with any of these types of dogs. What I have an issue with is them being placed in a novice pet home who may or may not even go so far as to do obedience with the dog. I don't think anyone would have an issue with a crok doing being placed in your home.


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## Jax08

Oh Steve. Poor Doc. He just wants the dumbbell. Send him to me. I can ruin him in under a week.


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## Steve Strom

> Wait a second.... you don't think I'm dog bashing do you?


No, maybe passive aggressive pedigree shaming though? But I don't care Gooseman, I don't expect everyone to like my dogs anymore then I expect every breeder to agree with how you mix the dogs to reach their ideal. I just wouldn't get my feelings hurt if the op puts more faith in what someone else told them. At the end of the day, I'll always fall back on seeing the dogs and meeting the breeder myself.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Steve Strom said:


> Wait a second.... you don't think I'm dog bashing do you?
> 
> 
> 
> No, maybe passive aggressive pedigree shaming though? But I don't care Gooseman, I don't expect everyone to like my dogs anymore then I expect every breeder to agree with how you mix the dogs to reach their ideal. I just wouldn't get my feelings hurt if the op puts more faith in what someone else told them. At the end of the day, I'll always fall back on seeing the dogs and meeting the breeder myself.
Click to expand...

Where else do you get to hear the phrase "passive aggressive pedigree shaming"?? 

?


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## Steve Strom

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Where else do you get to hear the phrase "passive aggressive pedigree shaming"??
> 
> ?


Come on, there's gotta be another smart ,,,,, aleck? somewhere on the internet that doesn't think there's total agreement on dogs?


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## Fodder

Steve Strom said:


> Come on, there's gotta be another smart ,,,,, aleck? somewhere on the internet that doesn't think there's total agreement on dogs?


Nope, you’re the only one Steve, lol


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## thegooseman90

Steve Strom said:


> No, maybe passive aggressive pedigree shaming though? But I don't care Gooseman, I don't expect everyone to like my dogs anymore then I expect every breeder to agree with how you mix the dogs to reach their ideal. I just wouldn't get my feelings hurt if the op puts more faith in what someone else told them. At the end of the day, I'll always fall back on seeing the dogs and meeting the breeder myself.


No no no. You're mistaken. I'm not passive aggressive anything. I gave an opinion on the pedigree as it pertains to op. And I'm sorry but the dog is not a pet home dog for an owner who may not even bother with obedience training, an to be honest I'm a little shocked that you seem to be against that narrative. As for you and your dogs I haven't said anything but positive things. You're the type of owner who I would think this pedigree should go to. I don't think it belongs with a novice owner and in a home where obedience is only a possibility. 

Let me say it another way. I really like the pedigree for what it is. I don't like it for what op wants it for, basically a golden that has the gsd look.


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## onyx'girl

> I don't like it for what op wants it for, basically a golden that has the gsd look.


This sadly is what many, many people want. And they want it cheap. 
Then there are the 'breeders' that will breed their pets and sell them to the ones wanting this. 
The market for that type is much higher than those that want a well bred GSD that is bred to the standard for versatile work ability.


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## Steve Strom

thegooseman90 said:


> No no no. You're mistaken. I'm not passive aggressive anything. I gave an opinion on the pedigree as it pertains to op. And I'm sorry but the dog is not a pet home dog for an owner who may not even bother with obedience training, an to be honest I'm a little shocked that you seem to be against that narrative. As for you and your dogs I haven't said anything but positive things. You're the type of owner who I would think this pedigree should go to. I don't think it belongs with a novice owner and in a home where obedience is only a possibility.
> 
> Let me say it another way. I really like the pedigree for what it is. I don't like it for what op wants it for, basically a golden that has the gsd look.


That was a joke, the passive stuff, I was kidding, but don't be shocked that I don't automatically believe what someone says on the internet about dogs they've never seen. Pedigree tells you something, but not everything. I'm just a dog owner, no different then anyone here other then maybe there are things I wanted to do. I don't automatically assume someone looking for a good dog isn't completely capable of raising one of these dogs, if they want to.


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## lhczth

So, has this discussion totally chased the OP off of the board? :surprise:


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## Apex1

I would not have been chased off. When I get to the point of my next pup, I'll surely be here asking questions. I need a few more years 1st.


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## cliffson1

GypsyGhost said:


> I really wish the people who have such great knowledge of pedigrees would share what they know. Instead, it is like pulling teeth to get information. How are people supposed to learn if no one is willing to share what they know?


Because much of the knowledge is not good, which is why we stay away from certain dogs or breedings, but when the not good is expressed,( regardless of whether it is true or not), somebodies FEELINGS get hurt who may have association or ties to the dogs or breeding and instead of the information being appreciated, snarky remarks come from the hurt one and there friends. Plus, I don’t see no mods coming on and saying this is just information and not personally directed to the hurt ones, instead they say they will close thread if it doesn’t stop. Sooooo, some of us just say?*♀, I only gave the good and BAD based on our experiences; WHICH supposedly we are now asking why we don’t share this info from these experiences......everything about the breed and or dogs/lines is not good, plain and simple, and if you omit the bad to spare folk’s feelings, then you are not giving accurate information....so you just give general information publicly and everyone is warm and fuzzy!?


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## cliffson1

wolfstraum said:


> people who train in IPO see many many dogs, train with people who work dogs in other clubs, see progeny and grandprogeny of certain males, see patterns in behavior, talk to people in other clubs, go to trials, seminars and events and they all talk about dogs.......... for example - lets think about another dog - not this one, a dog not mentioned here at all, that is in many many pedigrees that I have seen, and then I have observed at great length at least half dozen dogs who have this male in 1-3 generations and you can see patterns of behavior and temperament that carry through all these dogs you see, and then talk to others and hear of the same behaviors....it is a little like detective work....in this case I HAVE seen several progeny/grandprogeny of one dog discussed....and info on field and off field that make me believe that it is likely that the temperament will be less than ideal for a novice family with children.....all pups are lottery tickets and it ****could**** have a temperament not suggested by its pedigree....but it is a lottery ticket and children's well being is not something ***I**** would gamble with
> 
> 
> 
> Lee


Exactly!!! We do not wake up one morning and just make comments on dogs or breedings. After seeing many of these dogs, their progeny, breedings, in different venues, trading, trials, you will see patterns, traits, or characteristics that seem to be reoccurring and you feel can be helpful knowledge in reference to these dogs or breedings. ( Doesn’t mean all dogs related or associated will be of these patterns, BUT enough will that you are really being deceitful if you omit this information as possibility....unfortunately some of this information is not god......but regardless, it usually based on experiences and first hand knowledge not conjecture or trying to hurt someone.


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## GatorDog

Who in this thread is actually active in IPO besides Lisa and Steve?

My VERY FIRST working line dog that I got as a teenager has Asko in the first three generations. It’s just a miracle that I’m still alive.


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## nezzz

GatorDog said:


> Top producer for the BSP 2017 - 1st Terror von der Staatsmacht 9.09 %
> 4 Quardes, 2 Terror and 2 Trojan von der Staatsmacht progeny at 2017 WUSV, with the winner being Debbie vom Eisernen Kreuz, a Quardes DAUGHTER and a full littermate to Dexter vom Eisernen Kreuz, USCA National Champion of the same year.
> 
> I heard the same handler aggression and crazy outliers about Quardes progeny as well, but when you want to take a percentage based off of the high number of production, considering the wide use of the dogs as stud, you are going to have some variation.


Interesting you should bring this up. I just realised the difference between Terror and Trojan is HUGE and they're both litter mates. Same with that "D" litter Eisernen Kreuz. Even though both are top litters, the tiny differences between the dogs are very obvious once they've matured.


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## Nurse2b

I appreciate everyone’s input and opinions. 

I am not expecting a golden retriever. I understand that this breed to a lot of dog in and of itself and will be even more do with this particular puppy. 

I will be doing “something” with her I’m just not sure what yet...... that is why I stated “possibly” obedience. I’m not super familiar with IPO but have joined a couple FB pages that are around my area. 

I did NOT find her in puppy find. 

I was able to meet/interact with the Dam and a full brother from the last litter.

I’m a little concerned/hesitant that someone said now that I am getting her basically I shouldn’t be expected to come back on the board for help/advice (since I didn’t listed to opinions).

Thanks again and based on the responses sorry for opening a can of worms.


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## Kazel

Nurse2b said:


> I appreciate everyone’s input and opinions.
> 
> I am not expecting a golden retriever. I understand that this breed to a lot of dog in and of itself and will be even more do with this particular puppy.
> 
> I will be doing “something” with her I’m just not sure what yet...... that is why I stated “possibly” obedience. I’m not super familiar with IPO but have joined a couple FB pages that are around my area.
> 
> I did NOT find her in puppy find.
> 
> I was able to meet/interact with the Dam and a full brother from the last litter.
> 
> I’m a little concerned/hesitant that someone said now that I am getting her basically I shouldn’t be expected to come back on the board for help/advice (since I didn’t listed to opinions).
> 
> Thanks again and based on the responses sorry for opening a can of worms.


They meant they figured you weren't coming back to the board not that you couldn't come back to ask for advice! A lot of people come on here post a few things and then never get back on. And not just because their post gets a little wild, some have posts on topic full of good solid advice and not so much bickering.

It's good that you're planning on doing something. A lot of people here are worried about a new person to the breed getting into a dog they aren't expecting/wanting so they end up getting rid of the dog one way or another. 

A lot of people nowadays don't even train their dogs to sit or lie down so there's a little worry when somebody wants a dog that needs to have some stimulus and training. Since you don't know if the person is a 'good' owner or a 'bad' owner. Those being very subjective words of course. Somebody might be a great owner for one breed of dog but not for another. Anyway rambling now. Good luck with your new pup and hopefully it's what you want.


----------



## CometDog

I meant I was concerned you weren't coming back. I hope you do. The BOOM thread should not scare you away. Can't speak for the others (but I know they genuinely care and want to help) but I would never say told you so, would just listen and learn myself from the advice you will get. IPO club is probably your best bet, let them guide you into training with established breed savvy trainers. Good luck, looking forward to seeing puppy pics and getting WL puppy fever all over again.


----------



## cdwoodcox

Nurse2b said:


> I appreciate everyone’s input and opinions.
> 
> I am not expecting a golden retriever. I understand that this breed to a lot of dog in and of itself and will be even more do with this particular puppy.
> 
> I will be doing “something” with her I’m just not sure what yet...... that is why I stated “possibly” obedience. I’m not super familiar with IPO but have joined a couple FB pages that are around my area.
> 
> I did NOT find her in puppy find.
> 
> I was able to meet/interact with the Dam and a full brother from the last litter.
> 
> I’m a little concerned/hesitant that someone said now that I am getting her basically I shouldn’t be expected to come back on the board for help/advice (since I didn’t listed to opinions).
> 
> Thanks again and based on the responses sorry for opening a can of worms.


 Hopefully you will stick around. There is a lot of good info on here. I was kind of like you when I got my female. Had no plans of doing any sport just basic obedience. But then she came along and was a handful. Her Genetics are that where she is going to keep busy and she is going to bite. So I figured I may as well give IPO a try. Now I train 2-3 days a week at club or helpers house. I do the helper work at the club I attend. And I couldn't be happier. But you don't have to be 100% ipo either. I see a lot of high drive dogs doing Agility, SAR, herding, assuming the prey isn't too over the top. whatever you and the dog enjoy.


----------



## wolfstraum

GatorDog said:


> Who in this thread is actually active in IPO besides Lisa and Steve?
> 
> My VERY FIRST working line dog that I got as a teenager has Asko in the first three generations. It’s just a miracle that I’m still alive.


I have been doing IPO since late '90s - Lisa maybe 1 dog ahead of me in the sport (ie starting time) as I met her when she did Nike's BH and I was titleing Kougar and Kyra - single, holding at least a full time job with no support system at home to take care of life so I could gallivant around competing...but still have titled several dogs to multiple titles in Sch/IPO/AKC...I just trialed a dog for IPO1 in November - had some help in training on this one due to being pretty compromised in a car wreck a few year back, but got out there and trialed him (90-84 (-11 for me!!!) - 96) so not a shabby score either.


Also have bred some nice dogs - many of which are all over the US and titled in not just IPO but in AKC, flyball, dock diving, agility etc and some National dogs in all three organizations as well.. Some of my dogs -
both male and females have produced not just titled dogs for other breeders but National level dogs and a world level dog....last I counted, about 20 some titled IPO dogs with my kennel name or from females or males tha I bred (Starkenhund and Traumwolfen owned females - Elsa and Furious and Jagr)...


One of the most interesting sources of information on dogs are SV judges who are active breeders or in the sport......through them you understand the difference in priorities in producing puppies in Germany and here. Owning a dog who attacks you three times resulting in hospital stays, yet keeping that dog, breeding that dog extensively is just fact ....the dog produced strong dogs, winners on the field...so behavior like that was just part of the package.....priorities are to produce winners, not pups who are good candidates for family dogs who can produce sport....getting one pup who is good is worth producing 3 litters of culls....I have heard this over and over....:grin2::grin2::grin2:after all - they can sell all the culls to the US!!

Lee

PS - the dog in the example is in the pedigree of this pup....prominently! and of the dog who killed the neighbors small dog a few months ago I mentioned earlier.


----------



## mycobraracr

cliffson1 said:


> wolfstraum said:
> 
> 
> 
> people who train in IPO see many many dogs, train with people who work dogs in other clubs, see progeny and grandprogeny of certain males, see patterns in behavior, talk to people in other clubs, go to trials, seminars and events and they all talk about dogs.......... for example - lets think about another dog - not this one, a dog not mentioned here at all, that is in many many pedigrees that I have seen, and then I have observed at great length at least half dozen dogs who have this male in 1-3 generations and you can see patterns of behavior and temperament that carry through all these dogs you see, and then talk to others and hear of the same behaviors....it is a little like detective work....in this case I HAVE seen several progeny/grandprogeny of one dog discussed....and info on field and off field that make me believe that it is likely that the temperament will be less than ideal for a novice family with children.....all pups are lottery tickets and it ****could**** have a temperament not suggested by its pedigree....but it is a lottery ticket and children's well being is not something ***I**** would gamble with
> 
> 
> 
> Lee
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly!!! We do not wake up one morning and just make comments on dogs or breedings. After seeing many of these dogs, their progeny, breedings, in different venues, trading, trials, you will see patterns, traits, or characteristics that seem to be reoccurring and you feel can be helpful knowledge in reference to these dogs or breedings. ( Doesn’t mean all dogs related or associated will be of these patterns, BUT enough will that you are really being deceitful if you omit this information as possibility....unfortunately some of this information is not god......but regardless, it usually based on experiences and first hand knowledge not conjecture or trying to hurt someone.
Click to expand...



I’ve just learned to keep my mouth shut and my head down and do my own thing. I’ve learned that everyone else’s opinion, knowledge, or thoughts are far superior than yours(general).


----------



## cliffson1

Nurse2b said:


> I appreciate everyone’s input and opinions.
> 
> I am not expecting a golden retriever. I understand that this breed to a lot of dog in and of itself and will be even more do with this particular puppy.
> 
> I will be doing “something” with her I’m just not sure what yet...... that is why I stated “possibly” obedience. I’m not super familiar with IPO but have joined a couple FB pages that are around my area.
> 
> I did NOT find her in puppy find.
> 
> I was able to meet/interact with the Dam and a full brother from the last litter.
> 
> I’m a little concerned/hesitant that someone said now that I am getting her basically I shouldn’t be expected to come back on the board for help/advice (since I didn’t listed to opinions).
> 
> Thanks again and based on the responses sorry for opening a can of worms.


It sounds like if you get right pup, you and family will be fine. You have done homework and met one of parents....truthfully getting the right puppy for your situation is the key to great results with this type breeding.Good Luck!


----------



## Shane'sDad

Nurse2b said:


> I appreciate everyone’s input and opinions.
> 
> I am not expecting a golden retriever. I understand that this breed to a lot of dog in and of itself and will be even more do with this particular puppy.
> 
> I will be doing “something” with her I’m just not sure what yet...... that is why I stated “possibly” obedience. I’m not super familiar with IPO but have joined a couple FB pages that are around my area.
> 
> I did NOT find her in puppy find.
> 
> I was able to meet/interact with the Dam and a full brother from the last litter.
> 
> I’m a little concerned/hesitant that someone said now that I am getting her basically I shouldn’t be expected to come back on the board for help/advice (since I didn’t listed to opinions).
> 
> Thanks again and based on the responses sorry for opening a can of worms.


 I wouldn't be "concerned/hesitant" about coming back with questions--I think you'll find you get good info/answers here.... there are lots of members with years of experience with GSDs--. everyone here loves the breed (or they wouldn't be here) and most will offer help anytime you have a question as long as they feel qualified to answer. IMO Forums--any forum --are all about the debate. These guys love to debate---I wouldn't expect anything less. I don't think you opened a "can of worms"....You started a thread that I for one have completely enjoyed . Every member here should wish nothing but success for you and your new puppy. Good Luck--Keep Us posted and you know the drill---SHOW US SOME PICS when the time comes !


----------



## Steve Strom

Nurse2b said:


> I appreciate everyone’s input and opinions.
> 
> I am not expecting a golden retriever. I understand that this breed to a lot of dog in and of itself and will be even more do with this particular puppy.
> 
> I will be doing “something” with her I’m just not sure what yet...... that is why I stated “possibly” obedience. I’m not super familiar with IPO but have joined a couple FB pages that are around my area.
> 
> I did NOT find her in puppy find.
> 
> I was able to meet/interact with the Dam and a full brother from the last litter.
> 
> I’m a little concerned/hesitant that someone said now that I am getting her basically I shouldn’t be expected to come back on the board for help/advice (since I didn’t listed to opinions).
> 
> Thanks again and based on the responses sorry for opening a can of worms.


Congrats on the pup. Its not that you opened a can of worms, there's just a lot with dogs in general that's pretty subjective and can be a matter of who likes what. There's a lot of things that are contradictory in what people will say, not because they're wrong, there just aren't hard, absolute measurable's with dogs. A lot of people just don't describe things in the same way even using the same terms. Serious, real, drive, you did the best thing you can by seeing the dogs and meeting the breeder in person.


----------



## lhczth

The problem is that knowledge is based on experience and sometimes others have different or even more experience and when they disagree, people get huffy and stop posting. We should be able to post our experiences with specific dogs and lines, about the knowledge we have gained, no matter if it is different or not from another persons. Opinions about dogs are not black and white, it is not science, it is opinion. Saying stud dog A died of bloat at 8 is fact, is science. That dog B only produces serious dogs suitable for police is opinion not fact, not science. There are dogs that some people love that I wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole and I am sure I have used dogs that others feel the same way about. Those asking questions about breedings should be able to read all opinions and then be allowed to make a decision based on all information. 

And it isn't the mods responsibility to come in to smooth hurt feelings. We close threads when it becomes personal and people start attacking each other instead of ideas. 

I used your post Cliff because it did the best at covering what others were trying to say. I appreciate your posts even if I don't always agree with you. :smile2:




cliffson1 said:


> Because much of the knowledge is not good, which is why we stay away from certain dogs or breedings, but when the not good is expressed,( regardless of whether it is true or not), somebodies FEELINGS get hurt who may have association or ties to the dogs or breeding and instead of the information being appreciated, snarky remarks come from the hurt one and there friends. Plus, I don’t see no mods coming on and saying this is just information and not personally directed to the hurt ones, instead they say they will close thread if it doesn’t stop. Sooooo, some of us just say?*♀, I only gave the good and BAD based on our experiences; WHICH supposedly we are now asking why we don’t share this info from these experiences......everything about the breed and or dogs/lines is not good, plain and simple, and if you omit the bad to spare folk’s feelings, then you are not giving accurate information....so you just give general information publicly and everyone is warm and fuzzy!?


----------



## Jenny720

You started a interesting thread and still reading. I hope you stick around there is a lot information on this forum and everyone enjoys helping people here - even though it gets heated at times. Congrats on your pup!


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## tim_s_adams

If this is a can of worms, please open more soon! And of course, pictures...many many pictures when your puppy arrives!


----------



## cliffson1

lhczth said:


> The problem is that knowledge is based on experience and sometimes others have different or even more experience and when they disagree, people get huffy and stop posting. We should be able to post our experiences with specific dogs and lines, about the knowledge we have gained, no matter if it is different or not from another persons. Opinions about dogs are not black and white, it is not science, it is opinion. Saying stud dog A died of bloat at 8 is fact, is science. That dog B only produces serious dogs suitable for police is opinion not fact, not science. There are dogs that some people love that I wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole and I am sure I have used dogs that others feel the same way about. Those asking questions about breedings should be able to read all opinions and then be allowed to make a decision based on all information.
> 
> And it isn't the mods responsibility to come in to smooth hurt feelings. We close threads when it becomes personal and people start attacking each other instead of ideas.
> 
> I used your post Cliff because it did the best at covering what others were trying to say. I appreciate your posts even if I don't always agree with you. :smile2:


I definitely agree that breeding, pedigrees, and even trainingis more art than science. I think very few people who have extensive experience uses terms such as only, all, absolutely, every, Always,etc; but moreso use terms such as often, more often, many, a lot of, frequently, etc, to describe the experiences that form their opinions. And though many of these things are not science, there are informed opinions and uninformed opinions. There are no absolutes in the dog world, and certainly I would never expect someone to agree with me all the time...but as you said Lisa, we should be allowed to state the good and bad of our experiences without others becoming snarky or offended. 
I did not mean mod should smooth peoples feelings, rather I meant that when folks get attacked for stating an opinion, that should be pointed out. 
On a personal note, I only post pretty much in the breeding section, and then on things that I usually have had more than passing exposure to....with the intent of hopefully educating newer people depending on whether they have found my information to be possibly credible. But other folks with different experiences may have entirely different views/takes on the same dog or subject than mine, and I honestly feel it’s up to folks to use common sense in deciding what information resonates with what they have seen or repeatedly heard from others they find credible. There is really no reason to take the “ information” personally, imo.


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## Nurse2b

I will start a post in the intro. section once we get her home. But though I’d share a few we took when we picked her.


----------



## konathegsd

Wait


The breeder didn’t pick the dog for you?!


----------



## Stevenzachsmom

Oh my goodness! So adorable!


----------



## Fodder

konathegsd said:


> Wait
> 
> 
> The breeder didn’t pick the dog for you?!


Perhaps they narrowed it down to 2 potential matches and the OP chose between those... bottom line, the decision has been made.


----------



## konathegsd

Well at least the pup is cute!!! Haha


----------



## GSDguy4EVER

nezzz said:


> Interesting you should bring this up. I just realised the difference between Terror and Trojan is HUGE and they're both litter mates. Same with that "D" litter Eisernen Kreuz. Even though both are top litters, the tiny differences between the dogs are very obvious once they've matured.


The variability of temperaments of puppies within a litter is one reason why I believe this breeding may produce a puppy that is a good fit for the OP's family. I know the OP already chose the puppy, so hopefully they chose the one with more moderate temperament. 

For what it's worth, I know of a similar breeding where the sire was a Hutch son and line bred on Troll and the dam was a Fado von der lutter granddaughter with Ufo and Vito in her pedigree. Most of the puppies went to non-working homes, five of which had small children. Four of those families were what would be considered novices with working lines. The breeder said the puppies all were raised as indoor dogs. Almost two years later, no problems reported.


----------



## Shane'sDad

Nurse2b said:


> I will start a post in the intro. section once we get her home. But though I’d share a few we took when we picked her.


Awwww she's adorable !


----------



## nezzz

GSDguy4EVER said:


> The variability of temperaments of puppies within a litter is one reason why I believe this breeding may produce a puppy that is a good fit for the OP's family. I know the OP already chose the puppy, so hopefully they chose the one with more moderate temperament.
> 
> For what it's worth, I know of a similar breeding where the sire was a Hutch son and line bred on Troll and the dam was a Fado von der lutter granddaughter with Ufo and Vito in her pedigree. Most of the puppies went to non-working homes, five of which had small children. Four of those families were what would be considered novices with working lines. The breeder said the puppies all were raised as indoor dogs. Almost two years later, no problems reported.


This is my uneducated opinion, but I think Vito might be a little inconsistent, same with the dogs like Ellute/Eros who go back to Tom. I saw an Ellute daughter with awfully low drive. Wouldn't fetch a ball too enthusiastically, but she was 110% serious when it came to protection. She was bred and her son on the other hand was crazy and over the top with drive and too hectic but was also 110% serious in protection with nice full grips and aggression. 

I also had a friend with a female whose sire is Vito and dam is a Pike daughter. Low drive and low aggression. But very biddable and easily trained. Its weird, but in my club I've seen people who've supposedly bought dogs from famous BSP/WUSV sires and dams but they've all not turned out anything like their parents. The closest one I saw who was as close to the parents was a son from Chris spod lazov and even that dog has a few nuances that make him different to his father. 

Makes me question my desire to get my next pup from a famous litter now lol.


----------



## mycobraracr

It’s not about the sire, or the dam, rather the combination of the two. It’s not about 1 dog in the pedigree. It’s about the whole package. I do agree, it seems that depending on what part of the country you’re on determines what dogs you like. You brought up Ellute, he’s one that based off my experience I try to avoid. Yet talk to other people, and they search for him. Different experiences, different combos. I’m also a believer that these big name dogs are only big names because of their training, exposure and marketing. Not necessarily their genetic makeup.


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## CometDog

OP she is beautiful. The paint on those toes!!


----------



## lhczth

mycobraracr said:


> It’s not about the sire, or the dam, rather the combination of the two. It’s not about 1 dog in the pedigree. It’s about the whole package. I do agree, it seems that depending on what part of the country you’re on determines what dogs you like. You brought up Ellute, he’s one that based off my experience I try to avoid. Yet talk to other people, and they search for him. Different experiences, different combos. I’m also a believer that these big name dogs are only big names because of their training, exposure and marketing. Not necessarily their genetic makeup.


Actually it is often the grandparents and not the parents that really show up in a breeding. At least from what I have found.

Eros was the competition dog. Ellute was the producer. Yes, when we are only able to evaluate dogs based on what we see in the states, we rarely get the best dogs here, our opinions can be very tainted.


----------



## holland

If its the grandparents that show up -that is awesome -because I picked Rorie because I really liked the grandmother-wolfstraum hated the grandmother-Rorie is almost 13 -I'd pick her all over again...but then again she picked me...hope she feels the same way


----------



## mycobraracr

lhczth said:


> Actually it is often the grandparents and not the parents that really show up in a breeding. At least from what I have found.
> 
> Eros was the competition dog. Ellute was the producer. Yes, when we are only able to evaluate dogs based on what we see in the states, we rarely get the best dogs here, our opinions can be very tainted.



I've heard this many times, and don't disagree. My mind is always thinking breeding possibilities. So if it goes back on the grandparents, then the next generation would come back on the parents. Where will my program be then? I know most don't look at things that way, since they aren't breeding, but it's how my mind works. Always trying to plan ahead, always trying to keep my goal in mind.


----------



## cliffson1

I immediately look at six things in a pedigree, none of which is superior to the other unless they are extreme or unbalanced.
1) the parents
2) the grandparents
3) linebreeding created by parents
4)linebreeding of parents and grandparents themselves 
5) the position of the dogs in the pedigree( especially parents/grandparents)
6) the strength of the motherline
These are very important items for me to assess in pedigree, understanding that I must first have working knowledge of the traits and characteristics of dogs involved; Now this is just my way of looking at things. God forbid that I am saying this is right way or only way, but it gives an inkling of what I assess.


----------



## wolfstraum

holland said:


> If its the grandparents that show up -that is awesome -because I picked Rorie because I really liked the grandmother-wolfstraum hated the grandmother-Rorie is almost 13 -I'd pick her all over again...but then again she picked me...hope she feels the same way


to my knowledge I have never spoken to you....do not know your dog's pedigree - do not remember saying I hate any dog.....I do know that many many health problems came down from a certain female & line in a certain kennel and that the female they started with was to be PTS for slaughtering a neighbors' sheep and the owner in the Netherlands sold her to Gary Hanarahan, who sold her to a guy in VA who then sold her AFTER breeding his A litter to one of his stable help....who claimed SHE bred the litter and changed the kennel name (the litter was USA registered, and published wiht owner/breeders name)....Gary himself told the story at a judge's dinner....and I am GUESSING this is the female you are referencing....


----------



## lhczth

cliffson1 said:


> I immediately look at six things in a pedigree, none of which is superior to the other unless they are extreme or unbalanced.
> 1) the parents
> 2) the grandparents
> 3) linebreeding created by parents
> 4)linebreeding of parents and grandparents themselves
> 5) the position of the dogs in the pedigree( especially parents/grandparents)
> 6) the strength of the motherline
> These are very important items for me to assess in pedigree, understanding that I must first have working knowledge of the traits and characteristics of dogs involved; Now this is just my way of looking at things. God forbid that I am saying this is right way or only way, but it gives an inkling of what I assess.



This is also how I look at things.


----------



## lhczth

mycobraracr said:


> I've heard this many times, and don't disagree. My mind is always thinking breeding possibilities. So if it goes back on the grandparents, then the next generation would come back on the parents. Where will my program be then? I know most don't look at things that way, since they aren't breeding, but it's how my mind works. Always trying to plan ahead, always trying to keep my goal in mind.


I was talking about what will often show in a specific breeding and not when moving forward. When moving forward we have to, of course, look much more deeply, like what Cliff posted. Two individual dogs can be excellent animals, but the dogs behind them should tell us if they are a product of their genetics, and able to pass on their excellence, or if they are a fluke.


----------



## Shepdad

cliffson1 said:


> I immediately look at six things in a pedigree, none of which is superior to the other unless they are extreme or unbalanced.
> 1) the parents
> 2) the grandparents
> 3) linebreeding created by parents
> 4)linebreeding of parents and grandparents themselves
> 5) the position of the dogs in the pedigree( especially parents/grandparents)
> 6) the strength of the motherline
> These are very important items for me to assess in pedigree, understanding that I must first have working knowledge of the traits and characteristics of dogs involved; Now this is just my way of looking at things. God forbid that I am saying this is right way or only way, but it gives an inkling of what I assess.


This is really helpful Cliffson1. Thanks. Can you please elaborate on (5)? What do you mean by position? Are you referring to 4 quadrants, with each square as the lines going back on the 4 grand parents? What differences do you see in terms of influence of the sire's mother line for example versus the dam's motherline? Is this what you mean?

In (6), when you refer to motherline, do mean the tail female line of the dam, or the lines of the two grandmothers, or all the females in the dam's lines?


----------



## Shepdad

lhczth said:


> Two individual dogs can be excellent animals, but the dogs behind them should tell us if they are a product of their genetics, and able to pass on their excellence, or if they are a fluke.


Again, this is very helpful. Do you mean looking at the littermates of the two individual dogs? Or looking at the littermates of the grandparents? And aside from general excellence, are you looking for specific traits being passed on over at least a couple of generations?


----------



## carmspack

lhczth said:


> I was talking about what will often show in a specific breeding and not when moving forward. When moving forward we have to, of course, look much more deeply, like what Cliff posted. Two individual dogs can be excellent animals, but the dogs behind them should tell us if they are a product of their genetics, and able to pass on their excellence, or if they are a fluke.


and that is why for a novice with no other information just going out to see the dam or the sire will have no idea of the "chemistry" of the pedigree .

The F and F litter . One is "famous" and the other is a "Fluke"


----------



## Steve Strom

Isn't the "chemistry" the breeders job?


----------



## carmspack

Steve Strom said:


> Isn't the "chemistry" the breeders job?


sure .

if they have some deeper knowledge of the ancestry and the ability to pass on desirable traits and reduce those that you don't want.

the average pet owner , especially the newbie , will not have any ideas and sometimes just going to "see" the pups or the dam and sometimes if lucky the sire (if he is on site) won't tell you the whole story or an adequate description to see if you want to buy and read the book , or take on a specific breeding.

puppies are cute and amusing .


----------



## Steve Strom

Unless you have the ability to see the dogs themselves, I mean beyond the parents, you're taking someones word for whatever they are. Newbie or oldbie, you're doing the same thing, putting your faith in the person you're paying's knowledge.


----------



## carmspack

so what do you do with dogs that have been dead for decades --- and still exert their influence?

there are records . That is the one thing with a German system. Data collection and creating a library of
this material for reference .

Talk to people who have knowledge, have integrity , and experience , generally respected by their peers . 
They don't need to be the darlings of the doggy-social scene but they know their stuff .


----------



## cdwoodcox

So I have heard that after three generations the dog is a washout as far as passing Genetics onto new litters. With the exception of possibly linebreeding.
So fluke is 4 generations back on sire side. Fluke would have no influence on new litter except for whatever fluke passed onto progeny which would be mixed with the dam. Do others agree with this.


----------



## wolfstraum

cdwoodcox said:


> So I have heard that after three generations the dog is a washout as far as passing Genetics onto new litters. With the exception of possibly linebreeding.
> So fluke is 4 generations back on sire side. Fluke would have no influence on new litter except for whatever fluke passed onto progeny which would be mixed with the dam. Do others agree with this.


No nohow noway.....there is a matter of prepotency....racehorse breeders have been doing this a LONG time and look at pedigrees in great depth.....genetics pass forward....some dogs have stronger genetics and some are just fillers....I am getting dogs 4 generations down who are still showing the genetics of an ancestor - who was showing his grandfather....

Lee


----------



## cdwoodcox

wolfstraum said:


> cdwoodcox said:
> 
> 
> 
> So I have heard that after three generations the dog is a washout as far as passing Genetics onto new litters. With the exception of possibly linebreeding.
> So fluke is 4 generations back on sire side. Fluke would have no influence on new litter except for whatever fluke passed onto progeny which would be mixed with the dam. Do others agree with this.
> 
> 
> 
> No nohow noway.....there is a matter of prepotency....racehorse breeders have been doing this a LONG time and look at pedigrees in great depth.....genetics pass forward....some dogs have stronger genetics and some are just fillers....I am getting dogs 4 generations down who are still showing the genetics of an ancestor - who was showing his grandfather....
> 
> Lee
Click to expand...

 Interesting. I don't know much about genetics. But, I do enjoy reading the numerous posts concerning Genetics and pedigrees. 
So is it just that certain dogs have a stronger genetic trail than others in a pedigree? What is the reasoning. Do you have to wait until the dog is bred and numerous generations down before you know.
Idk. Maybe someone should just write up a genetics for dummies post on here so I can get answers to my basic remedial questions.


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## MineAreWorkingline

One way things were explained to me was let's say you cross a male wolf with a female dog. The resulting offspring will be half wolf and half dog. Then let's say you cross one of the crossbreeds with a dog. The resulting offspring may inherit all the dog genes from the crossbreed side and technically be all dog, or it could inherit all the wolf genes from the crossbreed and still be half wolf and half dog. Of course it is not that simple but it demonstrates how much a dog from the past can potentially very much show up in a dog of today.


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## Sabis mom

wolfstraum said:


> No nohow noway.....there is a matter of prepotency....racehorse breeders have been doing this a LONG time and look at pedigrees in great depth.....genetics pass forward....some dogs have stronger genetics and some are just fillers....I am getting dogs 4 generations down who are still showing the genetics of an ancestor - who was showing his grandfather....
> 
> Lee


Look at what Doc Bar did for Quarter Horses. That head, that conformation, that cow sense are still present multiple generations down.


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## thegooseman90

In the 4th generation each dog would be provide something like 6.25% of their genetics unless the dog was inbred/linebred and then it would depend on the specifics but it could be up to 25%. In other words a dog that contributed say 12.5% means you'd have 1 in 8 odds of getting a particular gene from that dog. It's simple in theory but much trickier in practice because it's impossible to know exactly how and which genes will be passed, but those who have been at it for a while can guess better based on averages. Say for instance breeder Johnson knows that Fido is known to pass on good grips based on his experience breeding the dog or whatever.


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## cliffson1

cdwoodcox said:


> So I have heard that after three generations the dog is a washout as far as passing Genetics onto new litters. With the exception of possibly linebreeding.
> So fluke is 4 generations back on sire side. Fluke would have no influence on new litter except for whatever fluke passed onto progeny which would be mixed with the dam. Do others agree with this.


I don’t!


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## cliffson1

carmspack said:


> so what do you do with dogs that have been dead for decades --- and still exert their influence?
> 
> there are records . That is the one thing with a German system. Data collection and creating a library of
> this material for reference .
> 
> Talk to people who have knowledge, have integrity , and experience , generally respected by their peers .
> They don't need to be the darlings of the doggy-social scene but they know their stuff .


I agree Carmen, plus how many people really KNOW what they are looking at when they see a dog in person? Are what they looking at the product of conditioning ( in which it won’t pass through genes) , or is it genetics, ( in which it will) , has the conditioning or training covered up some things( in which the things covered up will still pass to pups) ......I would much rather take word of experienced breeder than “ somebody” that has seen the parents,( in most cases)....again but that is my idiosyncrasies and I’m sure others do things differently.


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## cliffson1

Shepdad said:


> This is really helpful Cliffson1. Thanks. Can you please elaborate on (5)? What do you mean by position? Are you referring to 4 quadrants, with each square as the lines going back on the 4 grand parents? What differences do you see in terms of influence of the sire's mother line for example versus the dam's motherline? Is this what you mean?
> 
> In (6), when you refer to motherline, do mean the tail female line of the dam, or the lines of the two grandmothers, or all the females in the dam's lines?


5) Yes, I look at quadrants of 4 grandparents, what are the strengths in each quadrant and the underlying balance, based on these positions. I look at mother’s dam line a little differently than sire’s.....but both are important.
6) I look at primarily the dam line ( of the females) of the sire, and all the females in the dam line.


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## cliffson1

Folks, reading pedigrees is much more art than science. That’s why many don’t believe in it. I get that. I have had the fortune of being friends with a lot of top handlers in the breed, who could care less about genetics, but rather wait until dog is 2 years, acquire the dog and compete. Many breeders,( more than you think) breed based on titles, and or training only, and again I’m not saying this is right or wrong.
For me, I know people like Wolfstraum, Wildhaus, Lisa, Sue, have been awfully “lucky” over the years studying and using pedigrees to make breeding decisions....I like that kinda luck!


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## nezzz

thegooseman90 said:


> In the 4th generation each dog would be provide something like 6.25% of their genetics unless the dog was inbred/linebred and then it would depend on the specifics but it could be up to 25%. In other words a dog that contributed say 12.5% means you'd have 1 in 8 odds of getting a particular gene from that dog. It's simple in theory but much trickier in practice because it's impossible to know exactly how and which genes will be passed, but those who have been at it for a while can guess better based on averages. Say for instance breeder Johnson knows that Fido is known to pass on good grips based on his experience breeding the dog or whatever.


There's also the problem whether the genes are dominant, recessive, co-dominant, co-recessive, male-only Y chromosomal, etc...

For example, this is only for colour and only very basic


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## Steve Strom

carmspack said:


> so what do you do with dogs that have been dead for decades --- and still exert their influence?
> 
> there are records . That is the one thing with a German system. Data collection and creating a library of
> this material for reference .
> 
> Talk to people who have knowledge, have integrity , and experience , generally respected by their peers .
> They don't need to be the darlings of the doggy-social scene but they know their stuff .


I look at whats been maintained in the parents. Whatever the pedigree, if the parents aren't doing it and the breeder isn't current and active in it, the only thing they can honestly tell me is what their dogs are actually doing. Don't tell me the dogs are capable of something they aren't doing based on how ever many great dogs, popular, high scoring, or unknown to 80% of the the western world are 4 generations back in the pedigree.

There are things you can verify in that system, some things are unique to German Shepherds,but you still can't separate preferences, subjective opinions, and in some ways, baloney from it all. The point is a lot of people with integrity, experience, and general respect are going to have complete opposite opinions and produce different dogs you or I don't like.

Obviously, there are some that won't like this litter. That doesn't mean the op didn't have a clue what they were looking at when they met the dogs or that this wasn't a well planned breeding that someone with a lot of knowledge, experience, and integrity put together.


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## Shepdad

Steve Strom said:


> I look at whats been maintained in the parents. Whatever the pedigree, if the parents aren't doing it and the breeder isn't current and active in it, the only thing they can honestly tell me is what their dogs are actually doing. Don't tell me the dogs are capable of something they aren't doing based on how ever many great dogs, popular, high scoring, or unknown to 80% of the the western world are 4 generations back in the pedigree.
> 
> There are things you can verify in that system, some things are unique to German Shepherds,but you still can't separate preferences, subjective opinions, and in some ways, baloney from it all. The point is a lot of people with integrity, experience, and general respect are going to have complete opposite opinions and produce different dogs you or I don't like.
> 
> Obviously, there are some that won't like this litter. That doesn't mean the op didn't have a clue what they were looking at when they met the dogs or that this wasn't a well planned breeding that someone with a lot of knowledge, experience, and integrity put together.


Actually, just about everyone in the thread liked the litter, including me since we are all GSD aficionados. What people were discussing was the appropriateness of the match between what the OP said about herself and the probabilities of what most of the litter would come out to be based on what we as a forum knew about the parents. The litter would have been a good match for a lot of the people who responded on the thread that were not novices.

There is also a difference between what breeders look for and what end users look for. You and I are end users, we are not breeders. So we are not looking for the next generation after our dogs. The line stops in our hands. So in our cases, pedigrees are less important and the dog in front is all important. We all know the top competitors buy young or finished dogs precisely because all puppies are probabilities not certainties. However, many aficionados and pet owners who do not have the goal of going to the WUSV buy and raise puppies. So we rely on the expertise of breeders who know the parents and some of the dogs behind them because they are trying to narrow the range of outcomes, playing the probabilities so to speak.


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## Shepdad

cliffson1 said:


> For me, I know people like Wolfstraum, Wildhaus, Lisa, Sue, have been awfully “lucky” over the years studying and using pedigrees to make breeding decisions....I like that kinda luck!


And as any professional gambler would say, "lucky" is playing the probabilities better than the average person or the house.


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## Shepdad

thegooseman90 said:


> In the 4th generation each dog would be provide something like 6.25% of their genetics unless the dog was inbred/linebred and then it would depend on the specifics but it could be up to 25%. In other words a dog that contributed say 12.5% means you'd have 1 in 8 odds of getting a particular gene from that dog. It's simple in theory but much trickier in practice because it's impossible to know exactly how and which genes will be passed, but those who have been at it for a while can guess better based on averages. Say for instance breeder Johnson knows that Fido is known to pass on good grips based on his experience breeding the dog or whatever.


Yup, that's why all animal breeding is trait selection. So it is incumbent on the breeder to select the specific puppy in the entire litter with the traits they want to carry forward not just randomly pick any puppy. And of course only waiting until the puppy has grown to maturity, has passed health tests (an act of trait selection); and shown it's mature temperament including its ability to absorb working dog training. Trait selection explains why deep, calm grips can be carried forward from Tom, to Vito, to Bady, to Gabi, to Fant; and the origin is the back massing of herding genetics several generations behind Tom.

The tricky part is that each dog is a bundle of traits. So selecting for several good traits means accepting that some non-preferred traits may come along in the bundle. So the breeder thinks of how the next generation may be used to try to eliminate or minimize the non-preferred traits. So forth and so on in each generation.


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## cliffson1

Shepdad said:


> Actually, just about everyone in the thread liked the litter, including me since we are all GSD aficionados. What people were discussing was the appropriateness of the match between what the OP said about herself and the probabilities of what most of the litter would come out to be based on what we as a forum knew about the parents. The litter would have been a good match for a lot of the people who responded on the thread that were not novices.
> 
> There is also a difference between what breeders look for and what end users look for. You and I are end users, we are not breeders. So we are not looking for the next generation after our dogs. The line stops in our hands. So in our cases, pedigrees are less important and the dog in front is all important. We all know the top competitors buy young or finished dogs precisely because all puppies are probabilities not certainties. However, many aficionados and pet owners who do not have the goal of going to the WUSV buy and raise puppies. So we rely on the expertise of breeders who know the parents and some of the dogs behind them because they are trying to narrow the range of outcomes, playing the probabilities so to speak.


Exactly!


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