# Who is the top breeder of WL Gsd in USA??



## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Trying to spark some interesting discussion here, so who do you think is the top breeder of workings line shepherds in the USA? By top I mean who produces the best dogs, not necessarily who produces the most. Why do you feel this way? 

Just for political correctness, please do not bash other breeders. Nothing against forum rules. This is an opinion. But there can surely be stats to back it up! 

Thanks for info. Let’s get a good thread going...


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Define working dog, guide dog, SAR, patrol dog, therapy dog?


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Define working dog, guide dog, SAR, patrol dog, therapy dog?


I apologize for the confusion let’s just define it as sport dog


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Why limit yourself to the US?


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Why limit yourself to the US?


Ehhh why not. Let’s be patriotic


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think the top breeders vary each year.

What is the criteria? Top titles? Number of dogs competing? Health and longevity in competing?

If just number of dogs competing and higher competition titles then last year and year before I would say Staatsmacht. Blood line was in several dogs at nationals and the wusv. But the health and longevity of these dogs are in question. 

Sitz vd Hose and Olgameister (same breeders) has several dogs competing in 2018. One on the world team last year. They breed very consistent dog in terms of working ability and have for decades.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

Nscullin said:


> I apologize for the confusion let’s just define it as sport dog
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think it could be wrong to qualify best working line GSD breeder as a 'sport dog' breeder even if we compete in the sport and use sport to qualify breeding prospects. Wouldn't the best working line producer actually produce the best all-round working dog? Specifying a specific task to breed toward limits an already limited gene pool and effects health as @Jax08 alluded to.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

It's his thread. If he chooses to focus on sport dogs in the US that's his choice. It's not wrong


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

there are so few true breeders in the US.....there are tons of people breeding - they import European titled dogs, may title a pup or two and retain it now and then...but for teh most part 95% of the people with a kennel name are importing most of the stock they breed with.....While Stefan (Staatsmacht) does indeed have a true breeding program...his success in Germany prior to relocating is responsible for most of his high profile dogs/wins. He was sucessful there and continues to be - but the US buyer looks for a different type of dog in most cases. The US buyer wants a sport dog that can live in the house, with the family and go to club a time or two a week. The high profile people who are the most competitive go to Europe and buy young dogs with a foundation put on by a good trainer, they don't buy an 8 week old pup from an American breeder. There are people who have gone through the alphabet 2, 3 even 4 times who are still using purchased dogs to produce those litters...and actually, there are showline breeders who have more of a program than most working line people.

Lee


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Jax08 said:


> I think the top breeders vary each year.
> 
> What is the criteria? Top titles? Number of dogs competing? Health and longevity in competing?
> 
> ...


Interesting. Seems like some of the highly regarded dogs have staatsmacht in their pedigree. Pepper etc 


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

CeraDean said:


> I think it could be wrong to qualify best working line GSD breeder as a 'sport dog' breeder even if we compete in the sport and use sport to qualify breeding prospects. Wouldn't the best working line producer actually produce the best all-round working dog? Specifying a specific task to breed toward limits an already limited gene pool and effects health as @Jax08 alluded to.


It could be. I was just asked to specify so it was the route I took bc it’s where most of my interest lies. 


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

wolfstraum said:


> there are so few true breeders in the US.....there are tons of people breeding - they import European titled dogs, may title a pup or two and retain it now and then...but for teh most part 95% of the people with a kennel name are importing most of the stock they breed with.....While Stefan (Staatsmacht) does indeed have a true breeding program...his success in Germany prior to relocating is responsible for most of his high profile dogs/wins. He was sucessful there and continues to be - but the US buyer looks for a different type of dog in most cases. The US buyer wants a sport dog that can live in the house, with the family and go to club a time or two a week. The high profile people who are the most competitive go to Europe and buy young dogs with a foundation put on by a good trainer, they don't buy an 8 week old pup from an American breeder. There are people who have gone through the alphabet 2, 3 even 4 times who are still using purchased dogs to produce those litters...and actually, there are showline breeders who have more of a program than most working line people.
> 
> Lee


I definitely understand stand that and agree. I am certainly one of those that wants a sport dog that can live in the house, but I think it would be nice to see the us producing bc in times like this (aka corona virus) and with the rising shipping costs, it just makes sense. It would be nice if as a country we had enough breeding programs that produced quality dogs that the need to go overseas fell. May never happen, but would be nice 


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

And, the culture is def different here than there. I know where I’m at, you can just back tie a dog to work them and people are ready to call the humane society on you, so there’s also that to account for. 


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

This is a fascinating thread.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I think in general, you are less likely to find successful sport dogs that were bred in the US. A lot of the top competitors aren't going to waste their luck of the draw (and time/training/money) on a puppy who might end up not suitable due to drive or health reasons, and therefore they buy a young adult dog. The US market is not suitable for reselling started young dogs the same way that they do overseas, and as a result, most young adult dogs are imported. Many breeding programs start here, but they never quite make it to that same place that the kennel of the imported breeding dog itself was developed from. There is a small handful of breeders in the US who actually produce and title or compete what they have bred, and getting a puppy from these programs into the hands of successful sport homes can be difficult based on the reasons cited above. There are occasional dogs who are US bred and still highly successful, but its just less common, IMO.


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## KarmaPuppy (Nov 22, 2019)

i personally think if we get another GSD down the road, i will be getting an already trained or mostly trained young adult dog. However we will see. so i'll be watching this thread


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Very much agree with @GatorDog. But I also think there are some rising kennels in this country putting out some really nice dogs, hers included. 

Interesting thing I noticed last week looking at pedigrees of puppies thru Facebook - I didn't recognize any of the names in the pedigrees. I think the US is breeding certain lines and everyone has those lines while we don't even know the vast majority of kennels in Germany and the rest of Europe. If you look at pedigrees of puppies bred here, you will see the same lines. Pepper, Iron, Kinski, Lennox, Staatsmacht dogs, etc.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Jax08 said:


> Very much agree with @GatorDog. But I also think there are some rising kennels in this country putting out some really nice dogs, hers included.
> 
> Interesting thing I noticed last week looking at pedigrees of puppies thru Facebook - I didn't recognize any of the names in the pedigrees. I think the US is breeding certain lines and everyone has those lines while we don't even know the vast majority of kennels in Germany and the rest of Europe. If you look at pedigrees of puppies bred here, you will see the same lines. Pepper, Iron, Kinski, Lennox, Staatsmacht dogs, etc.


I have noticed that. And then you get to the old German kennels a few generations back. It’d be interesting to know more about the kennels in eu


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Nscullin said:


> I have noticed that. And then you get to the old German kennels a few generations back. It’d be interesting to know more about the kennels in eu
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Current kennels*


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Yep - flavor of the month....whoever wins or shows well at a big trial gets breedings - they use the heck out of them in Europe and then sell them here.....quickly if they are producing issues - which a couple of the popular stud dogs definitely are doing! I have had a co-bred litter or two....used a male I was not happy with due to partner....big big mistake....

Taking a female - imported or born here and just breeding to the winner/newest import over and over is pretty common here....does that make the person a "top breeder"???

I can think of maybe a half dozen people (at least on the East Coast) who have bred, trained and titled more than 2 generations of female lines....a couple of those are firmly entrenched in a club where they are the only breeder. Look at trial results, look at kennel names, see whose dogs get titled - then look at the demographics. I know breeders 3x, 4x through the alphabet....and any dog with their kennel name that is titling is in one/two clubs - local clubs trade back and forth a bit - many clubs only want their members to buy pups from one person in the club and there can be heavy pressure to do so....I have refused to sell pups to people I have trained with and to others who inquire based on whose club they are in....too many cliques and drama over puppy sales ..... people end up bitter enemies and hate each other over nonsense when someone has a litter to sell and a buyer looks at more than one litter....seen it over and over.

This is a question that is impossible to answer!!!

Lee


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

wolfstraum said:


> Yep - flavor of the month....whoever wins or shows well at a big trial gets breedings - they use the heck out of them in Europe and then sell them here.....quickly if they are producing issues - which a couple of the popular stud dogs definitely are! I have had a co-bred litter or two....used a male I was not happy with due to partner....big big mistake....
> 
> Taking a female - imported or born here and just breeding to the winner/newest import over and over is pretty common here....does that make the person a "top breeder"???
> 
> ...


Not to derail but I wanted to learn more about the sport side so reached out to a club in Calgary. All it was in essence was a local breeder flogging her own dogs.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> Not to derail but I wanted to learn more about the sport side so reached out to a club in Calgary. All it was in essence was a local breeder flogging her own dogs.


No need to apologize. Let’s let this thread go whatever way it turns. Interested in all opinions/directions. 


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Nscullin said:


> No need to apologize. Let’s let this thread go whatever way it turns. Interested in all opinions/directions.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I am actually really interested in this thread, even though you excluded Canada. Lol. 
First I always like topics that generate actual discussion, but I also find it really interesting that we already have a breed that is a WL/SL split and we are in essence creating yet another split with the sport dogs. Because lets be brutally honest here, an awful lot of the dogs being produced for sport are not really suitable as pets and lack the ability to truly work. Don't execute me. I know there are some dogs that do work and sport, really well. 
I am always happy to learn and love the why of things.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> I am actually really interested in this thread, even though you excluded Canada. Lol.
> First I always like topics that generate actual discussion, but I also find it really interesting that we already have a breed that is a WL/SL split and we are in essence creating yet another split with the sport dogs. Because lets be brutally honest here, an awful lot of the dogs being produced for sport are not really suitable as pets and lack the ability to truly work. Don't execute me. I know there are some dogs that do work and sport, really well.
> I am always happy to learn and love the why of things.


Only excluded bc of the current corona virus crisis lol. And I won’t execute you for that statement. I think it’s prob pretty accurate. Maybe not 100%, but pretty accurate. Especially of the high level sports dogs. 


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

IMO, there are two issues with breeding for high level sport dogs. The first is that the practice bastardizes the breed. It is really no different than breeding for show lines except that the goals are different. Both result in most dogs not being what the breed was meant to be genetically. And both are highly motivated by money, especially the show line breeders. The other issue, especially in the U.S. is that breeders do not take the time, effort and expense to develop actual bloodlines that increase the odds of producing the type of dog they are trying to produce. To develop your own bloodlines, you have to hold entire litters back to see how they turn out, or at least, place them close enough that you can evaluate them and put them in the hands of people who can develop the dog properly. You also need to have a foster dog program for breeding females so you can keep them locally and assess how they produce. Those approaches are not money makers. As a result, breedings are very much hit or miss and the emphasis on selecting for top sport dogs leads to unbalanced dogs and nerve and health issues which the breed is already plagued with. The popularity of a breed always leads to a decline in the breed. There are some small scale breeders who develop their own lines and try to produce dogs that are more balanced in their drives. They are more suitable for real work and are not going to be podium dogs. The direction that sport has headed for a long time, IPO in particular, is also a factor.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Chip Blasiole said:


> IMO, there are two issues with breeding for high level sport dogs. The first is that the practice bastardizes the breed. It is really no different than breeding for show lines except that the goals are different. Both result in most dogs not being what the breed was meant to be genetically. t.


But people breed what they like and have the right to do so


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Chip Blasiole said:


> IMO, there are two issues with breeding for high level sport dogs. The first is that the practice bastardizes the breed. It is really no different than breeding for show lines except that the goals are different. Both result in most dogs not being what the breed was meant to be genetically. t.


But people breed what they like and have the right to do so


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I don’t disagree, but breeding involves stewardship to the breed. Look at all the posts about temperament issues which are related to poor breeding.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Sabis mom said:


> I am actually really interested in this thread, even though you excluded Canada. Lol.
> First I always like topics that generate actual discussion, but I also find it really interesting that we already have a breed that is a WL/SL split and we are in essence creating yet another split with the sport dogs. Because lets be brutally honest here, an awful lot of the dogs being produced for sport are not really suitable as pets and lack the ability to truly work. Don't execute me. I know there are some dogs that do work and sport, really well.
> I am always happy to learn and love the why of things.



We definitely have a split happening in the working lines....and it is very very heavy into producing sport dogs, even to the detriment of health and temperament.....dogs who are extremely handler aggressive being used over and over and who you can barely avoid in pedigrees....line breeding/back massing, and in Germany using dogs in huge numbers so that in 1 - 3 generations down, is resulting in skeletal issues resulting in a new breeding criteria for back integrity!

At one point, I had 2 males working in a group which was mainly K9 officers.......almost every single officer tried to get me to sell one dog as a street dog - saying "he is not a sport dog", the other they admired as a sport dog (3x National level top 10, including a High OB in Trial at a National event - with a novice handler who has titled 3 or 4 more, but not with the same sucess). The one who was sought after as a LE K9 was trained by another friend who was a National winner, 3x WUSV, 1xFCI participant....unfortunately he was unable to compete due to real life with the dog and I handled him to a couple of titles (and due to my compromised physical state - with minimal training time and inept handling  - and still got a couple of V scores (100 tracking, 96 protection))...also V rated and KKL. Koermeister was VERY complimentary about him!

This dog and his littermate (HGH, KKL titled female) are producing super nice working dogs - they are also producing qualities of power and strength in combination with the abilty to live as companion animals which is what is starting to be so hard to find in today's high profile sport litters. We laugh on the FB page as so many will sleep in the some pose as Komet....on the couch, upside down, and often with a cat at his feet! With only a few litters between these littermates, a few will title, a few are professional detection dogs, SAR dogs, and one is even active as a dual detection/sport tracking competition dog at a high level.

Most of you would look at the pedigrees and scratch your heads tho! Not the flavor of the month at all.

Lee


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

wolfstraum said:


> We definitely have a split happening in the working lines....and it is very very heavy into producing sport dogs, even to the detriment of health and temperament.....dogs who are extremely handler aggressive being used over and over and who you can barely avoid in pedigrees....line breeding/back massing, and in Germany using dogs in huge numbers so that in 1 - 3 generations down, is resulting in skeletal issues resulting in a new breeding criteria for back integrity!


Specific Examples of some of these dogs that are handled aggressive or those with skeletal issues please


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

wolfstraum said:


> We definitely have a split happening in the working lines....and it is very very heavy into producing sport dogs, even to the detriment of health and temperament.....dogs who are extremely handler aggressive being used over and over and who you can barely avoid in pedigrees....line breeding/back massing, and in Germany using dogs in huge numbers so that in 1 - 3 generations down, is resulting in skeletal issues resulting in a new breeding criteria for back integrity!
> 
> At one point, I had 2 males working in a group which was mainly K9 officers.......almost every single officer tried to get me to sell one dog as a street dog - saying "he is not a sport dog", the other they admired as a sport dog (3x National level top 10, including a High OB in Trial at a National event - with a novice handler who has titled 3 or 4 more, but not with the same sucess). The one who was sought after as a LE K9 was trained by another friend who was a National winner, 3x WUSV, 1xFCI participant....unfortunately he was unable to compete due to real life with the dog and I handled him to a couple of titles (and due to my compromised physical state - with minimal training time and inept handling  - and still got a couple of V scores (100 tracking, 96 protection))...also V rated and KKL. Koermeister was VERY complimentary about him!
> 
> ...


When Sabi was dying and I was desperately looking for a pup, I kept getting denied by breeders. Because in their words the dogs they were producing were not suitable as pets! That is a horrible statement of a breed that is supposed to be above all things VERSATILE!


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> When Sabi was dying and I was desperately looking for a pup, I kept getting denied by breeders. Because in their words the dogs they were producing were not suitable as pets! That is a horrible statement of a breed that is supposed to be above all things VERSATILE!


Well yes but wouldn’t that make them a responsible breeder? By screening owners and matching the pups with the best fits


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Nscullin said:


> Specific Examples of some of these dogs that are handled aggressive or those with skeletal issues please
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


sorry - not starting THAT cacastorm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and against the rules anyway!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Nscullin said:


> Well yes but wouldn’t that make them a responsible breeder? By screening owners and matching the pups with the best fits
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


On the surface, yes. Except that they are breeding dogs good for nothing but sport. So what happens to those dogs that don't cut it or suffer an injury? 
The breed was supposed to be good with children, steady around stock, able to fill all needs and be happy doing it. 
As I said, creating a third split.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> On the surface, yes. Except that they are breeding dogs good for nothing but sport. So what happens to those dogs that don't cut it or suffer an injury?
> The breed was supposed to be good with children, steady around stock, able to fill all needs and be happy doing it.
> As I said, creating a third split.


Just playing devils advocate. Nothing personal. And hmm good question. What does happen in that situation?

Side note, I was in the feed store earlier and a little earlier and a girl (couldn’t have been older than 2) ran up and grabbed schatzis tale. No parental guidance at all. I don’t even know where the parents where. She flipped around but didn’t react. I was very proud of her. And very pissed at the girls parents at the same time. 


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Nscullin said:


> Just playing devils advocate. Nothing personal. And hmm good question. What does happen in that situation?
> 
> Side note, I was in the feed store earlier and a little earlier and a girl (couldn’t have been older than 2) ran up and grabbed schatzis tale. No parental guidance at all. I don’t even know where the parents where. She flipped around but didn’t react. I was very proud of her. And very pissed at the girls parents at the same time.
> 
> ...


Grrr, been there. Sabs adored kids and was steady as a rock, Shadow loves kids but is far to bouncy for small ones. Violently affectionate, lol. 
@mycobraracr, aka T17 working dogs, has Kimber. She suffered an injury that retired her from sport, but has a home as a much loved pet regardless. The two litters(so far) produced by this kennel have all or mostly gone to sport homes and have done well, but are all pets as well. Pictured frequently with children. One pup was handled by a child in trials. Very cute btw. 
These are balanced dogs that can and are doing it all. So they have secure futures regardless of situation or circumstance.
If kennels are* stating* that sport prospects are not suitable as pets then they may face grim futures if things don't pan out. 
So yes people absolutely should get the dogs they desire, but it may be hypocritical for sport people to state that dogs bred as pets are out of standard. Right?


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> @mycobraracr, aka T17 working dogs, has Kimber. She suffered an injury that retired her from sport, but has a home as a much loved pet regardless. The two litters(so far) produced by this kennel have all or mostly gone to sport homes and have done well, but are all pets as well. Pictured frequently with children. One pup was handled by a child in trials. Very cute btw.
> These are balanced dogs that can and are doing it all. So they have secure futures regardless of situation or circumstance.


Great shout out. I train with a T17 dog. She's a great dog. Great at the sport and as a pet. Versatile and well balanced.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Nscullin said:


> I apologize for the confusion let’s just define it as sport dog
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I was really hoping that you were going to define working dog as a working dog. One that could do SAR, LE, Military,therapy, PP, and or sport. There will be varying degrees of drive in one litter that may or should be able to fill multiple roles. you could easily have a litter of 8 pups where any of these roles could be an option. One or two may just go to pet homes from same litter. The key is health, balanced drives, and temperament. A good breeder will breed for balance not extremes or sport titles.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

CeraDean said:


> Great shout out. I train with a T17 dog. She's a great dog. Great at the sport and as a pet. Versatile and well balanced.


Which one? I love those dogs!


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> Grrr, been there. Sabs adored kids and was steady as a rock, Shadow loves kids but is far to bouncy for small ones. Violently affectionate, lol.
> @mycobraracr, aka T17 working dogs, has Kimber. She suffered an injury that retired her from sport, but has a home as a much loved pet regardless. The two litters(so far) produced by this kennel have all or mostly gone to sport homes and have done well, but are all pets as well. Pictured frequently with children. One pup was handled by a child in trials. Very cute btw.
> These are balanced dogs that can and are doing it all. So they have secure futures regardless of situation or circumstance.
> If kennels are* stating* that sport prospects are not suitable as pets then they may face grim futures if things don't pan out.
> So yes people absolutely should get the dogs they desire, but it may be hypocritical for sport people to state that dogs bred as pets are out of standard. Right?


Absolutely! Love your explanation of the subject and it’s a great s/o to the t17 breeding program. 


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

cdwoodcox said:


> I was really hoping that you were going to define working dog as a working dog. One that could do SAR, LE, Military,therapy, PP, and or sport. There will be varying degrees of drive in one litter that may or should be able to fill multiple roles. you could easily have a litter of 8 pups where any of these roles could be an option. One or two may just go to pet homes from same litter. The key is health, balanced drives, and temperament. A good breeder will breed for balance not extremes or sport titles.


Feel free to elaborate on any. I was asked, and personally, I have no use for a military dog of le dog but if you have opinions, let them be know. My Initial idea was to encompass all but I know that is a wide range. Would love to hear all opinions. All dogs from sports kennels are not sports prospects. All dogs from militRy kennels are not prospects. Etc. etc. I’ve heard stories of sports dogs being scared of a stop sign. Completely unacceptable in my opinion. Sports are meant to be a breed test imo. If your sports dogs are scared of everyday obj, welll........


Idc if they can heel 


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> Which one? I love those dogs!


Amira. I love watching her on the field ❤


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

CeraDean said:


> Amira. I love watching her on the field


This is exactly the discussion I hoped for. Continue at will guys/girls 


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

CeraDean said:


> Amira. I love watching her on the field ❤


She was one of the black ones right? She seemed like a very serious pup who truly loved to "work". Would love to see her now!


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> She was one of the black ones right? She seemed like a very serious pup who truly loved to "work". Would love to see her now!


Yep. She is black. Perfect relationship with her handler. She was recently bred to a Wildhaus SAR dog. Great looking pups. I can't wait to see what they do. It's been amazing to be around this wonderful example of working line breeding.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Amira was the one that really liked her nose I think. I remember watching the videos of them as pups. And I'm certain it was her that was always wandering after her nose. I really wish I could see what this litter turns out like.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Wildhaus website has the progress of the individual litters. They do have a fb group, but it is private and only accessible to the WH pup owners/breeders. I really loved this litter, they are all dispersing to new homes this weekend. I also look forward to how they all progress.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

The question about what defines good temperament has to be qualified as “good for what?” Ideally a GSD should be good with children. Ideally they should be socially “normal” and have discernment as to what is a threat and what isn’t. Handler aggression can be caused by genetics and learned and we want dogs with handler hardness and hardness to the helper. The problem is when the breed is bred to be an ideal pet and working dog. Sometimes you end up losing valuable working traits when breeders also strive to breed very social, stable dogs. Nothing wrong with that but there is a place for dogs that are not good pets and too much breeding for Rin Tin Tin dilutes the gene pool. It is happening in all the protection breeds post 911. There needs to be some extreme dogs in the gene pool to keep the breed viable as a working dog. Liability and social perception are factors. If people breed away too much from what made the breed great, such as an overemphasis on sport traits, is what leads to dilution of the breed. The trend is to breed more and more prey based dogs that are very social rather than aloof. It is happening in some of the best KNPV Mal crosses as well along with all the protection sports being diluted. It is fine to prefer a social, high prey dog but too much emphasis on selecting for those traits will and have led to a loss of valuable genetics.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I don’t think it’s as “needle in a haystack” as some people want to pretend it is. In one litter alone, I have produced a police K9, an IGP titled dog, and a dog living with 3 children in the home. It’s more so having an HONEST opinion about the dogs being bred, and not kennel blindness or resentment. Breed to do better. If you already think you’re the best, then you’re already doing it wrong.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Yeah, I really don't know much about the topic, but last time I looked there was only 1 standard for all GSDs!

Of course there will be outliers, but really, how can a single standard accommodate a 3 way split LOL!






Breed Standards | United Schutzhund Clubs of America


The United Schutzhund Clubs of America (USCA) is a German Shepherd Dog Breed Organization guided by the rules of the organization of origin of the German Shepherd Dog, the “Verein für Deutsche Schäferhunde (SV)” in Germany. USCA is a member of the “World Union of German Shepherd Dog Clubs” and...




www.germanshepherddog.com






> Character
> 
> The German Shepherd Dog must be well-balanced (with strong nerves) in terms of character, self-assured, absolutely natural and (except for a stimulated situation) good-natured as well as attentive and willing to please. He must possess instinctive behaviour, resilience and self-assurance in order to be suitable as a companion, guard, protection, service and herding dog.


I don't see an either or an or in that last statement!


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

cdwoodcox said:


> A good breeder will breed for balance not extremes or sport titles.


This here is right on the money!!!

It's the GSD standard. It's required in the very definition of the breed. What amazes me, and trust me this whole debate is somewhat new for me, as I have always preferred just working with the dog's and leaving these matters to philosophers, but there is a standard. The very definition of what a GSD should be!

How that is debatable is a mystery! You either breed to that standard, or you don't much care about the breed!

But, getting back to the original question of "Who is the best breeder"? 

That one, friends, is not possible to answer! But if I were to guess, it's someone most all of us have never heard about!


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

The biggest thing I see wrong with people in the German Shepherd world is this. People want a dog that looks powerful when doing bitework. But they don't want a dog with true aggression. They want the training to give the illusion of power, aggression, civil. But they don't want a dog that is truly powerful, with offensive aggression and real civil. Smoke and mirrors.
the best dogs in my opinion "at least in my small training world" would be sportwaffen dogs. The dogs are the real deal yet very stable and safe. 
That being said. I am sure there are many others out there, ON HERE that breed dogs that are also the real deal yet stable/balanced. I just haven't been exposed to those breeders in real life.
I take that back. I have been exposed to a few wildhaus dogs. Very nice dogs. Connall is a steward of the breed. Can't wait to see what his daughter brings.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Wow, thanks for the shout out! I love all my dogs, and would personally work every single one of them. That being said they aren't for everyone and there is things that I like and dislike about each litter. Things to improve on. I think it's going to be a few generations before I get the "perfect" dogs. We all have a different idea of what that is. For me it's about balanced drives, health and bullet proof nerve. I try to not use the "flavor of the month" stud as I think in a couple generations, what's our gene pool going to look like? I don't want my dogs to be kennel dogs, but active members of the family. My childhood GSD was exactly that. Great with all of us kids, watched over our livestock, went on family trips with us, horseback rides with my mom and sister and so on. She did it all. That set my view of what a GSD should be. My favorite things about Kimber, are on a competition field, people love her. She hasn't been on a help yet who hasn't commented about her. I work with multiple LE agencies every week, and I've gotten many offers from them to make her street dog. Yet in the home, with my client dogs, she is a pet. She just is content doing what I'm doing. She's my heart dog for sure. Her progeny, is showing to be the same. Sixx, who I'm possibly doing a litter with this fall, is just like Kimber. Her owner works LE seminars and training and various swat teams have tried to buy her. Yet when at home, his young daughter play dress up with the dog, paints her nails and so on. That is what I love about this breed and in my opinion what makes them unique over the other popular working breeds.

The Wildhaus, Amira litter looks amazing! I wanted one so bad!!!!! I just don't have space right now  

I also like what @GatorDog is doing with her program. I've been enjoying watching the progress.


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