# Does this sound appropriate?



## drofen (Jan 5, 2013)

About 9 months ago I put down a deposit for a GSD puppy with what I thought was reputable breeder after doing a little research. They seem concerned about the right things--hips, genetics, temperament. They sent a long questionnaire to be filled out about our family. And they seemed to be charging about middle of the road of the market prices I found. 

My family's only request was a male pup, color didn't matter. And of course we want an appropriate animal for a young growing family.

The first litter was whelped, and we were told we wouldn't be getting a puppy from that litter due to the number of people on the waiting list. Understandable!

I was just as excited for the next litter to be whelped a couple weeks later, but we were told it was a small litter with only 1 male and 3 females so again, we wouldn't be getting a puppy. Again, understandable. 

Then we were offered a female pup from the next litter, which we turned down, because we really want a male, and I wasn't overly keen on the size and face structure of the breeding female.

Then we were told the next litter was stillborn.

Then we were told the next pregnant female had had a "false pregnancy".

Now we've been told that the original female from the very first litter we were interested in is again pregnant, but haven't been given a whelp date.

My concern is that there has been a huge lack of communication throughout this experience, with me having to initiate nearly every exchange. I guess I thought they would send out periodic updates. They have also stopped updating their website with upcoming litters.

My biggest concern is actually getting a puppy, the RIGHT puppy for my family. I'm not keen on losing my deposit, but is it time to seek out a different breeder? Or am I overreacting?

Regards,

Robert


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## Thorny (Nov 4, 2012)

I would have asked for my deposited back after you didn't get a pup from the first litter. Do you really trust this shady sounding breeder to pick the right pup for you at this point? 

I'd ask for money back and look elsewhere.


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## dazedtrucker (May 2, 2011)

Sounds like you have been very understanding and patient. Enough is enough.. I think you are there. I'd ask for my deposit back. Good luck!


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## tacticalseries (Dec 24, 2012)

I agree you have waited long enough with lack of trust in the breeder if possible my recommendation would be to ask for the deposit back. A small white lie to avoid the breeder getting angry or anything like that when they have your money I would consider. Or wait it out a little but If that route keep a good connection With the breeder. Good luck!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Enough is Enough. Get your deposit back.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

get your deposit back. You've been strung along...


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

you have a deposit which has been held for a period of time and the female which you liked in the first place is pregnant . "Now we've been told that the original female from the very first litter we were interested in is again pregnant, but haven't been given a whelp date."

Whelp dates are approximate , that much they should give you . Maybe it is so early after the breeding that they can't be certain that she is pregnant , but hope she is.

Never mind. You have a deposit. Communicate with them that you are now head of the line and you get first pick of an appropriate male pup.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I would say this (kinda what carmen has said),,IF YOU are willing to wait on this litter, I would ask for an approxmiate whelp date, I would then say, IF there is a male in this litter am I the 1st pick since I've waited so long thru other breedings? IF there is not a male appropriate for MY situation then I am expecting my deposit back.


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## Narny (Sep 8, 2010)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I would say this (kinda what carmen has said),,IF YOU are willing to wait on this litter, I would ask for an approxmiate whelp date, I would then say, IF there is a male in this litter am I the 1st pick since I've waited so long thru other breedings? IF there is not a male appropriate for MY situation then I am expecting my deposit back.


I agree with this. I wouldnt have been patient enough to wait 2 year .


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## EJQ (May 13, 2003)

I would say that you have been MORE than understanding - get your deposit back!


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## drofen (Jan 5, 2013)

Thank you all for the input. My gut was telling me that something wasn't quite right.

Question: How long should a breeding female be rested between litters? 

I've sent an email asking for more information about this upcoming litter. If I don't get a reply by the end of the weekend I'll be calling to get my deposit back. 

And then I guess the search starts all over again.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

Most good breeders do not breed back to back heats, they usually skip a heat and if they are going to rebreed, will rebreed on the next heat. Most females go into heat twice a year (every 5 - 6 months), so breeding every other heat would mean one litter a year.

With that said, if the female is healthy and the litter isn't so big that it is a huge drain on the female, it is not necessarily a bad thing if they are rebred on the next heat, as long as it isn't constant breeding every single cycle (so two litters a year, year after year...). 

I'm not sure where the comment was about waiting two years, but it sounds like you've waited 9 months? I think you've been awfully patient, and the breeder seems to be breeding a lot of dogs (4 litters in 9 months is a lot IMHO). Have you researched this breeder on this site to see if there are any threads about the breeder pertaining to them being someone who is recommended?

If it's a good breeder, I would not be opposed to waiting 9 months for a pup but after 4 litters now, I would be making sure I was at the top of the list in regards to a male puppy. If you are still 5 or 6 people down, you may be waiting awhile more. Do you have a contract about whether the deposit is refundable and if so, under what circumstances? Whether people here think you should get it back is irrelevant. Most people would certainly say yes, get it back. What your contract says is what will matter.


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## drofen (Jan 5, 2013)

Rerun said:


> Most good breeders do not breed back to back heats, they usually skip a heat and if they are going to rebreed, will rebreed on the next heat. Most females go into heat twice a year (every 5 - 6 months), so breeding every other heat would mean one litter a year.
> 
> With that said, if the female is healthy and the litter isn't so big that it is a huge drain on the female, it is not necessarily a bad thing if they are rebred on the next heat, as long as it isn't constant breeding every single cycle (so two litters a year, year after year...).
> 
> ...


Good information, thank you. 

You are correct, we've been waiting 9 months.

Again, you are correct: After reading the contract closely, getting our deposit back is merely wishful thinking. It clearly states that deposits are not refundable. 

After finding this forum yesterday, I did search to see if this particular breeder had been discussed here. It turns out they have been, and are regularly recommended to people in my area by people with personal knowledge of both the breeders and dogs. This makes me feel a little better. 

I think I would be ok if they would just communicate with me. I'm a reasonably patient person--I'd just like to be kept in the loop. 

Thank you all for your input. I feel I can call them for some answers and not feel like I'm pestering them. 

Cheers!

Robert


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

at this point I don't think calling them would be "pestering" them..

I think you've been more than patient and should be at the 'top' of the list at this point.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

9 months is not the end of the world. Sometimes bitches have false pregnancies, some matings don't take, you are dealing with nature, it isn't an exact science. 

Breeding back to back is fine so long as it is not continuous. EVERY time a bitch is bred she should only be bred if she is in tip-top shape. So if she did not come back well from her previous litter, no, she should not be bred. 

Dogs are not humans. A human becoming pregnant twice in two years means 18 months of pregnancy out of 24 -- that is a lot. A dog being bred twice in 1 year, is 4 months of pregnancy out of 12. A human raising a baby means nursing/bottles and diapers for more than 12 months, taking care of the child for 18 years. A bitch takes care of her pups for 8 weeks or less. It is apples to oranges, and so long as the bitch is in good condition it does not hurt them to be bred back to back. 

There are other reasons why good breeders might choose to breed just once a year. Managing litters in the summer may be easier in the winter, selling puppies in the spring/summer or fall might be easier than when there is snow and ice everywhere. Some prefer to rest the bitch and breed just once a year. Some might want to breed a different bitch and do not want more than they can handle of puppies. 

Nothing is absolute, but a good restaurant generally has a lot of cars in the parking lot, and you might have an hour or more wait for a table. The fact that they have a lot of deposits out there may mean that their dogs are in high demand. That may mean that the dogs used for breeding are good quality and the breeders are well-known. Or not. 

I don't like taking deposits until puppies are on the ground. Other breeders want so many deposits before breeding their bitch. It is just different philosophies. If the deposit is non-refundable, than that is what it is. I think if you post a poll on here, how long did you wait for your puppy once you chose a breeder, I would be very much surprised if you have no one saying that they waited 9 months or more. 

I also think that that is a lot of possible breedings in 9 months. 6? is that right? That can be a lot, but nothing is cast in stone. If they pass all of your other tests for what kind of breeder they are, then the number of dogs, number of litters would not dissuade me within reason.


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## drofen (Jan 5, 2013)

Selzer, thanks for the input. 

You are correct, 6 possible breedings, 5 different females, less than 9 months. 

Aside from that I am happy to report a positive phone call with the breeder. Although I was the one to make the call, she did know me by name, and what type of pup we are looking for. She gave me an estimated whelp date, and promised more info after a check-up next week. She also told me we were "first or second" on the male list. 

I feel better having talked all this through with her and with input from the forum. Thank you all!


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Just a thought here - Why a male? When I am looking for a pup, I want good temperment, good health. Looks are a bonus. I don't care about the sex of the dog. If you like the breeding, is the sex of the pup really that important?

Over the years, I've gotten adult dogs and pups. The first pup was a pound pup. That was one I picked. The next pup was "only one left" but she turned out to be the perfect dog for my household. The next pup, the breeder chose knowing a bit about me & what I expected from the dog. The current one is the fourth pup I've had - the breeder chose her for me. She's perfect, too. I never specified sex or color. Temperment first, then health are my main concerns. 

There may not be an appropriate male in this breeding - can you consider a female?


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## drofen (Jan 5, 2013)

middleofnowhere said:


> There may not be an appropriate male in this breeding - can you consider a female?


My family and I have decided that we would really prefer a male. A male personality just fits our family better.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

there's absolutely nothing wrong with wanting a certain sex
or color. healthy, sound, strong nerve dogs are male and female
and various colors. the dog isn't less healthy because you want a certain gender or color. 



drofen said:


> My family and I have decided that we would really prefer a male. A male personality just fits our family better.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

doggiedad said:


> there's absolutely nothing wrong with wanting a certain sex
> or color. healthy, sound, strong nerve dogs are male and female
> and various colors. the dog isn't less healthy because you want a certain gender or color.


Yes, but the bitch can have seven females and 1 male, and that male could be super high drive, or totally independent, and that might not be what the family needs either. If you are set on a certain color or a certain gender, you may have to wait longer to get the pup of your dreams.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

wait longer if necessary, find another breeder if necessary,
that doesn't change wanting a certain color or gender.



doggiedad said:


> there's absolutely nothing wrong with wanting a certain sex or color. healthy, sound, strong nerve dogs are male and female and various colors. the dog isn't less healthy because you want a certain gender or color.





selzer said:


> Yes, but the bitch can have seven females and 1 male, and that male could be super high drive, or totally independent, and that might not be what the family needs either.
> 
> >>>> If you are set on a certain color or a certain gender, you may have to wait longer to get the pup of your dreams.<<<<


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## drofen (Jan 5, 2013)

drofen said:


> Selzer, thanks for the input.
> 
> You are correct, 6 possible breedings, 5 different females, less than 9 months.
> 
> ...


Well, I'm sorry to report that again, silence. The time for a promised update came and went without any contact. When I finally emailed asking for an update I got a 2 line email stating that the dog wasn't pregnant after all. So, *another* false pregnancy. An immediate follow up email for more information about future planned litters etc, has gone unanswered for 2 days.

Arrrrgh!!


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

How frustrating for you and your family.

I guess there are two options at this point:

-Ask the breeder if you can have your deposit back. Some make it clear they do not refund deposits. I have no idea what their "deal" is regarding deposits.

-If they won't refund the deposit chalk it up to a loss $$ (I know a tough one to accept) and research and find another breeder.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Here's the thing...breeders are people and not businesses. If this is a good breeder, they're probably working/showing their dogs, especially on the weekends, and so they don't have time to answer emails and it wouldn't surprise me that a breeder isn't answering back to you.

Personally...I wouldn't deal with a breeder that wanted a deposit before the bitch was confirmed or the liter was on the ground. I'm at the moment waiting on a puppy from a friend, and a club member, of mine. She's probably not even going to bother with a deposit from me (sees me weekly) but that's the kind of breeder I want to deal with. She has six puppies reserved already but isn't collecting money. I guess I'm also just much more cautious when I'm paying a large sum of money for something. If I was in your shoes...I planned for a puppy within a certain date range, I'd be really pissed about not getting one in that time period and so I wouldn't really put a deposit down unless I was almost guaranteed a pup.

You went to a good breeder...demand for their puppies shows that. But I always try to tell people (especially those of us looking for pets) that there are so many good ones out there when you're not looking for a specific line. It's cases like yours that scare me a little about putting down a couple hundred dollar deposit without a true sense of when I'm going to get my product...if I were you, I'd probably stick it out at this point and hope that you get a puppy from the next breeding, they seem to do enough of them.

If you're really in a hurry to get a puppy...which you might be as the family has waited for 9 months, I'd bring it up to the breeder and see if they'll be understanding enough to give you the deposit back, if not, you might just have to forget about it and move on to another one.

Just an observation...they've had 3 litters, one of which was really small. Did you ask what number you were on the "waiting list" before you put down a deposit? Sorry...but a simple question like that would've at least given you some idea of where you stood before you put down money. I'm not trying to make you feel bad, but its shocking to me how little information people sometimes get before putting down large sums of money.


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## CelticGlory (Jan 19, 2006)

That's what I was going to mention as well about the possibility of the breeder show/trailing/etc. Does this breeder partner with another fellow breeder? If so, could you see if they would transfer the deposit over to that breeder if they have puppies available? How much was the deposit? If it was say $500, I would keep trying and give the breeder that option. That isn't your only option.

I'm sending a PM!!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think you've been more than patient, Honestly, I'd call them and tell them that , and then I'd send a certified letter saying you wanted your deposit back.

While I agree, everyone has lives/shows etc, I'm not impressed with how "you" have had to track them down and basically pry answers out of them..Not the way I would do business, nor would I do business with someone like that..

Just my 2 cents, but at this time, I'd start looking elsewhere. Good luck to you


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## drofen (Jan 5, 2013)

I finally lost my cool a bit, and wrote a pretty strongly worded email asking if I needed to move on to another breeder. I also let them know I was unhappy with the communication thus far. This is the response I got:

"We responded right after your last email. Apparently you didn't get it. We have several females to come into heat in the next 45 days."

That's it, and that's all.

Yes, I have paid a $500 deposit. I thought I was doing the right thing because I researched the breeder as best I could, and only found glowing reviews about their dogs, some of them on this very site.

When I paid the deposit on the first litter I knew that I would have to be a large litter or a male heavy litter for us to get one. I was led to believe we were the #4 male pick. We were ok with that, because there were 3 more upcoming litters listed on their site with anticipated whelp dates over the next month and half. I guess bad luck has prevailed and we are still without a pup.

As best as I can tell, we are 1st or 2nd male pick on the next viable litter. I'm just starting to wonder when that will be.

I get that people have lives, and stuff happens. I just think a $1850 purchase warrants an occasional update. I get that breeders aren't getting rich off of their breedings if they're doing it right, but that's still a lot of money for a family like mine.

And that brings up the emotional investment for my family. I have dissappointed my kids too many times already with dashed hopes of getting a pup and then something happening. They ask me at least once a week if our puppy is coming home yet. 

Just so frustrated.

The contract clearly states deposits are nonrefundable. My wife is not willing to walk away from our $500 deposit, even though I'm ready. So I guess we just wait.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think I would move on. 

Ok, here's the thing, I don't get that you are looking for a high level schutzhund competitor, or a dog that you would like to take to a national championship in the conformation ring. 

$1,850 is upper end for a 8 week old German Showline puppy. Yes you can find some for $2500 or even more, but average is in the neighborhood of $1,500. Either way you are definitely in the ball park. If you are going working lines, they are generally a little less. I am guessing that you can find working lines that are more sought after and will cost you more, either because of their ancestry or the level of accomplishments of sire and/or dam. My point is, you can probably find a very nice pet in the $1350 - $1500 range, STILL go to a decent breeder, and get the dog you want with a more present breeder, if you go to a breeder who isn't breeding 5-6 bitches within 3 months. 

I am not saying the breeder is no good, I am saying it isn't a fit for you and your family. 

I have an issue with them knowing the breeding will have a LOT of males, feeling confident that though you were fourth on the list, you would have males to choose from that fit your bill. 

Let me see, 

Arwen/Dubya #1 -- 5 males, 2 females
Arwen/Dubya #2 -- 3 males, 5 females
Babs/Rushie -- 1 male, 6 females
Jenna/Gispo #1 -- 6 males, 4 females
Jenna/Gispo #2 -- 4 males, 3 females
Babs/Herko #1 -- 2 males, 1 female
Babs/Herko #2 -- 1 male
Jenna/Herko -- 3 males, 5 females
Bear/Herko -- 5 males, 4 females
Odie/Obi -- 1 female

My point is, out of 10 litters, 3 would have given you a choice between 2 or 3 puppies. that is, if they happened to have the color you wanted. And if other qualifiers did not disqualify one or more of them. And many of those were good-sized litters. To suggest that it is probable to get what you are looking for as the fourth male pick. 

It sounds like if you ran out of suitable males on litter 1, you would be first in line for litter #2, but that isn't how it works. Sometimes, for example, the stud fee is a puppy, and if the male is very good, it may be a pick puppy. And then it depends on what the stud owner wants whether they want male or female. So you may be bumped to #2. But if people that want these dogs CHOSE litter 2 and knew they would be PICK 2, now suddenly you are pick 3 or pick 4 AGAIN!!! I mean, it isn't the person or persons who chose litter 2's fault that your bitch did not whelp. 

These people obviously have a LOT of puppies and have a LOT of puppy buyers. They had some misses, or whatever, and came up short. But they are not concerned about losing the customer. Partly because their puppies didn't happen, and partly because they have your healthy deposit and it is non-refundable. 

What I would do, is find a couple of decent breeders who have litters on the way, and choose one once the puppies are on the ground, and you know how many males there are, and what the litter is likely to produce. Then you ask whether anyone has a deposit down, and you choose at that point if you want to put your name down for a puppy from the litter. Then you tell your kids the date that you are going to bring the puppy home. Of course it is ALWAYS possible to lose puppies after they are born as they are living creatures and susceptible to many things, but your chances are excellent for bringing hope the pup on the date if you wait until pups are on the ground. 

I think the wife would be open to this plan if you look in a price range that recoups some of your loss. But, then you are giving the breeder you are with $500 for nothing. It is a stiff lesson. 

I usually do not let prospective puppy buyers know that puppies have arrived for about a week. That way I am pretty confident with what I have. I am not a big fan of deposits, exactly due to the problems you are having. A lot of good breeders like to give the buyer a pick between two or three pups that best match what he is looking for, and not simply the #2 or # 4 male pick. This is because we mark behavior on the pups from 3 weeks and up, and might see that one is a lot more drivey and should be put with someone with an active home, another might be more independant and may need an experienced owner. You take your middle of the road pups and give people a choice between them. 

Some people though know what they want and how to pick the best puppy, and that person may be given a choice of all the males.


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## drofen (Jan 5, 2013)

Well, we've decided to move on. We've put a deposit down for a puppy from a litter that's already on the ground with another breeder. 

Now I'm working on getting our deposit back. I sent an email explaining that I thought the circumstances were a little bit out of the ordinary and warranted a refund. 

As you might imagine, no reply yet.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I would send them a certified letter, this way they have to sign for it and you will get a receipt saying they received it.

Personally, and I dont like the sue happy world we live in, I would just say, I expect a response of more than a one liner within xxxx amount of days or I'll be contacting my lawyer..

A bluff but I'd really want more than a one liner response, since I think you deserve atleast that after all this time of you being patient.

Good luck with your NEW puppy!


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## mego (Jan 27, 2013)

drofen said:


> Well, we've decided to move on. We've put a deposit down for a puppy from a litter that's already on the ground with another breeder.
> 
> Now I'm working on getting our deposit back. I sent an email explaining that I thought the circumstances were a little bit out of the ordinary and warranted a refund.
> 
> As you might imagine, no reply yet.


Even though they may have a strict policy about keeping the deposit or it being nonrefundable, that's what, 3 failed litters? (1 still born, 2 falsies) and failed communication? In my opinion, if you can't communicate with the breeder you choose (this is definitely not your fault in this case at all, its theirs) then it's a major problem. I would just go elsewhere too, which I am glad you did.

So, got pics of the new guy that's on the ground?


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## Nikitta (Nov 10, 2011)

I totally agree. It sounds like you need to move on and I pay more then the 1200-1500 for my german shepherds and they are pets. If you are willing to pay in a higher price range that is your choice. Sad that you have to give up that much money but it sounds like they have been jerking you around enough AND they deserved a not so nice e-mail. What? Because your not some hot shot in the german shepherd world I can treat you like crap? NOT!!!! Tell everyone on this website this kennels name. They don't deserve to have a good rep when they treat people like crap like that. And they have no right to keep that deposit. Keeping a deposit is when they have tried to please you and have failed. It shouldn't apply to THEM blowing you off. That's BS.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Nikitta said:


> I totally agree. It sounds like you need to move on and I pay more then the 1200-1500 for my german shepherds and they are pets. If you are willing to pay in a higher price range that is your choice. Sad that you have to give up that much money but it sounds like they have been jerking you around enough AND they deserved a not so nice e-mail. What? Because your not some hot shot in the german shepherd world I can treat you like crap? NOT!!!!* Tell everyone on this website this kennels name. They don't deserve to have a good rep when they treat people like crap like that.* And they have no right to keep that deposit. Keeping a deposit is when they have tried to please you and have failed. It shouldn't apply to THEM blowing you off. That's BS.


Breeder bashing is against board rules, but if people contact you via PM, I guess you can tell them the breeder's name and location that way. Do not list it on a thread or it will most likely be deleted and a general reminder about board rules if the powers that be are in a good mood.


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## TheActuary (Dec 17, 2011)

selzer said:


> Breeder bashing is against board rules, but if people contact you via PM, I guess you can tell them the breeder's name and location that way. Do not list it on a thread or it will most likely be deleted and a general reminder about board rules if the powers that be are in a good mood.


Stupid rule... seems like it would be good for everyone if breeders felt more accountable for the way they conduct themselves.

Maintaining a good reputation keeps people accountable.

I definitely understand what it's like to be at the receiving end of poor communication with a breeder who responds with one-liners... frustrating to say the least.

I will say this though, when I finally met with and spoke to my breeder, it was clear he had a lot going on. He trains K-9 handler teams full time in addition to his breeding and familial responsibilities.

OP, I hope everything works out with your new puppy!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

TheActuary said:


> Stupid rule... seems like it would be good for everyone if breeders felt more accountable for the way they conduct themselves.
> 
> Maintaining a good reputation keeps people accountable.
> 
> ...


It is a rule. There is a reason for the rule. There is no accountability for the person posting. Every situation has your side, my side, and what actually happened. I am not calling the OP a liar. I am saying that in general, we have a rule on this site against breeder bashing because an unsatisfied customer can attack someone where the credibility of the attacker is neither in jeopardy or will matter whatsoever as a buyer, the credibility/reputation of the breeder who is actually named, does actually make a difference, and as this site is not set up to travel to breeders and check out and confirm allegations, they prefer to keep breeder bashing off the general forum.


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