# Wow alpha rollovers in puppy class



## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

I thought no one did those anymore since all they do is scare the dog and might cause aggression later on.

Anyway I was surprised in Glory's puppy class that the instructor wants us to do this not only in class but at least once a day at home - to establish "dominance" over the pup. What a load of crap! Anyway while everyone else is alpha rolling or trying to alpha roll their puppies I just have Glory lay down and just pet her all over as part of just getting her used to handling. No way am I going alpha roll her or any other dog. Aren't people starting to realize that the old school theory of dominance and submission and being pack leader and whatnot ala Cesar Milan is not how dogs really are? I thought it was starting to catch on that that theory is not factual. 

If I had a little more guts I'd challenge the trainer on her opinion of alpha rolls in class - but I don't. I may talk to a few classmates about what a bad idea it is and perhaps refer them to check out Dr. Dunbar and Patricia McConnell.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Yet another reason to watch a couple of classes before you sign up to make sure you agree with the training philosophy.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

If I tried to alpha roll Zefra, I'd probably end up with stitches..... LMAO.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

It's baaack!


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## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

It's a training club so the instructors vary - the one I had for Nyxie's puppy class there was awesome and I had hoped to have her again - but instead have this woman instead.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

If I was in that class, and was told to "alpha roll" I would:

Lay on the ground.

Put the puppy on top of me.

Wait for instructor to ask, "what are you doing?"

Then reply, "she is alpha rolling silly. Look how good she is!"

 Then I would walk out.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Stupid....Stupid....technique.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

That is why i'm getting everything set up to become my own obedience instructor. I know what i'm doing (for the most part, just need a little work) so why not become a certified instructor? The only rolling i ever do with my dogs is push them over for a belly rub which gets that motor leg going and the tail wagging like crazy or when we're wrestling. never once have they been alpha rolled.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

I'd like to see somone try to "alpha roll" our Quando or Ando....90+lbs of *no way Jose*.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Robin, Stark would just lay over for me (no one else though, I'd like to see you try... and then I would laugh at you as I drove you to the hospital) but Zefra.... she is only about 45lbs but would leave you with holes in your body if you tried!


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

My latest pup is one who hated to be held "baby" style when she was a munchkin. I figured that out day one and never really pushed it, but did get her to enjoy lying in my lap and eventually rolling herself over for a belly rub. Now she could care less, but if I would have forced her at that early stage I'm sure it would have started an incident and created some serious issues between us. 
I had one of our club members pick her up that first week and try to roll her over before I could warn him. She turned into the tasmanian devil, it was pretty funny. 
Like I said, now at 8 mos it's not an issue but it sure could have been!

Annette


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## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

There's a couple puppies in class that I could see this being a real problem so I may have to speak with them about how this is a bad idea and is actually quite damaging to the relationship they are building with their puppy. The instructor is a guide dog puppy raiser so I really didn't expect her to be teaching alpha rolls. 

Maybe I'll get up the nerve to chat with the instructor privately - or find an e-mail contact for her, less confrontational! I think this is just her own personal style since this is not the first class I have taken at this club and I've had a few different instructors and this is the first I've heard one speak of alpha rolling and establishing your dominance nonsense. Actually the other instructors are all very positive and rewards based and I enjoy the classes I have taken and the one I have Nyxie enrolled in. Just shocked that such drivel is being promoted in a puppy class of all places.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Just make sure, when you approach the other class members, have hard copy information on the negatives of alpha rolling otherwise they may just think you're crazy and keep doing it.


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

Nearly every puppy owner I have in my puppy class has tried to impress me by saying they alpha roll their puppies. I've advised them all to immediately stop after staring blankly and blinking while they tell me. 
Atleast I can save a few. 

It's even more infuriating that a TRAINER is advising this.


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## NewbieShepherdGirl (Jan 7, 2011)

Oh wow...I can't imagine using that kind of forceful training on a puppy...Sasha would just think I was playing a game with her, when we wrestle we have a system where she ends up on her back (me playing with her paws) while she pretends to bite me, then she usually springs up and zooms around lol! I'm thinkin' she would be missing the my being dominant part of this kind of training hahaha!


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## MarleyGSD (Sep 29, 2010)

ugh, when we first got marley my hubs had watched wayyyyy too many cesar milan episodes and thought that alpfa rolling was the answer to all problems. the first few times i watched and starred at him with a look on my face that said "i seriously thought you were a much smarter man than _that_" he also had a few other really stupid cesar milan tricks to use ("tssst" while a quick jap to the ribs) i always tried to correct HIM and finally when we got into classes our instructor gave him the same look that i once had and said "ummm what are you doing?" He doesnt do any of those things any more. PEOPLE need the training!!


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## EchoGSD (Mar 12, 2010)

If you are questioning the Instructor's methods, please speak directly to the instructor AFTER CLASS. Do not disrupt the class to "challenge" her, and do not give contradictive advice to the other students in the class. Neither of those actions will give you good results, and will often create animosity between you and the trainer. I'm not saying you shouldn't ask questions while in class (by all means do!), but if you are in conflict about a method being taught, do not make it a public display. Talk to the instructor, explain your thoughts and beliefs, ask why she is encouraging a process or method that seems inappropriate to you. Give her the benefit of a conversation, and if you find that you disagree with the class methods, it's your choice to continue or not. Remember that just because you don't agree with a particular method or that method isn't appropriate for _your_ puppy, it doesn't meant the method is "bad" and it doesn't mean it isn't appropriate for other puppies in the class.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

What I have learned over the years, mostly from questioning vets, is just that question her. Don't make it sound like your disagreeing or arguing but make her explain why she feels this is a good thing. Then you can stand there like most people would with a stupid look on you face and come back with intelligent statements most likely based on facts why it's really an outdated training technique, keep questioning, pleasantly of course.
That non confrontational approach.


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## EchoGSD (Mar 12, 2010)

I'm not 100% certain I understand the theory behind alpha rolls -- isn't the theory that the OWNER should be able to roll the dog on his/her back and the dog should submit? I didn't think it carried over to having OTHERS force the dog into a rolled position...I can put my dogs in any position (sit, stand, down, on their backs, etc). All of the dogs will submit to being restrained (sometimes in a down position) by strangers as well. It's just basic training...what if they need medical attention? I'd much rather know that my dogs are willing to be safely restrained by techs and vets without a battle, forcible "pinning", a muzzle, or sedation having to be involved. After working in emergency veterinary medicine for 20 years, I've (unfortunately) done my share of wrestling dogs to the floor because the owners didn't feel it necessary to teach dogs to accept restraint, and also refused sedation. Just makes it harder on the dog in the long run.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I alpha rolled my puppy all the time and we have as strong of a bond as any. He will now only allow me to do such a thing and calms down the second he is on his back (he knows if he's calm he will be released). These days I do it just for fun when we are wrestling and he doesn't mind it at all. I don't think its right for a trainer to be teaching this in a puppy class because many people will think this is the only way. The only reason we did it was because we got the advice from someone that has had shepherds all their life and believed in doing it. We met their dogs and they were extremely well behaved and didn't have any issues at all.

Just wanted to post this because this thread will become a "never do this technique again because a lot of people don't believe in it" otherwise.


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## nitemares (Dec 15, 2005)

I never had to alpha roll any pup or dog i met (i'm a dog walker, volunteer at local shelter, had dogs all my life) I think a good leader wouldn't need to alpha roll at all, most of the dogs i meet almost instantly alpha roll themselves just to get a belly rub from me. Maybe all the dog i've met were submissive by nature, but even though i like watching Cesar, i dont necessarily agree with him, forcing an Alpha Roll is just wrong.


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## RichardMorris (Jul 24, 2011)

The alpha roll does not exist in nature. Why would you want yoiur face to be an inch or so away from a set of large white teeth as you try to roll your GS on to its' back..Call me when you get homefrom the ER..
Richard


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

Those that say alpha rolls don't exist in nature, do you ever sit and observe dogs? My old bitch did on a few occasions and not out of fun. It was like watching a wrestler, one leg swept the front ones, the other across the shoulder and drove the dog onto it's back and got right over top of it. 

Very cool to see. It was a dog she knew, but not a pack member, and it was pissing off our cat, she had enough and told it so. 

They practice "rolls" all the the time when playing, different, but animals practice in play what they use in "real" life situations. Tell me again they don't exist in nature.

That said, trying one on an adult dog is a sure way to get hurt, i'd stay away from them.

But in a puppy class, I gotta ask, was this a grab your dog and slam it over "alpha roll"? or was it what is more common, gently rolling the dog over and getting it used to being put in positions by its handler for everything from belly rubs to exams. Very safe and can be quite comforting when done correctly to a puppy. 

Very safe and can have good effects later by teaching your puppy that even in exposed positions, you are there as a person of trust and submission, compliance whatever you want to call it, is a good thing and can be enjoyable. It can be used to build trust actually.

I reallly doubt these were the grab your dog, slam it down and stare into its eyes till it looks away, type alpha rolls.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

So then what do you call it when my dog puts another dog on the ground, grabs it around the throat and just holds it there for a few seconds?

And I would never ever alpha roll an adult dog for the first time, but when you start young (before they can actually do anything), they accept it. They learn that as soon as they are calm and submit they are released. It literally takes a second for him to relax now and get let go and we start the wrestling all over again. I'm not in any way advertising this technique and would never suggest it to someone that was having issues with their dog I have never personally delt with, but I'm just saying it works for some people.


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

crackem said:


> gently rolling the dog over and getting it used to being put in positions by its handler for everything from belly rubs to exams. Very safe and can be quite comforting when done correctly to a puppy.
> 
> Very safe and can have good effects later by teaching your puppy that even in exposed positions, you are there as a person of trust and submission, compliance whatever you want to call it, is a good thing and can be enjoyable. It can be used to build trust actually.


I practice this...all the time. On all of my dogs, no matter the age. I am doing it daily with Kastle right now. At least once a day, trying for more often. It's to teach him to settle down and be calm in that position. That it's a pleasant, protected position and while he's there, I am able to touch any part of him I wish. He is released when I'm through and he's laying limp and settled. I up the ante by doing this in more distracting atmospheres as he gets better and better at it. Sometimes he has to lay there for several minutes, other times for seconds. I do not call this alpha rolling and I do not do it to demonstrate dominance.


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## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

crackem said:


> Those that say alpha rolls don't exist in nature, do you ever sit and observe dogs? My old bitch did on a few occasions and not out of fun. It was like watching a wrestler, one leg swept the front ones, the other across the shoulder and drove the dog onto it's back and got right over top of it.
> 
> Very cool to see. It was a dog she knew, but not a pack member, and it was pissing off our cat, she had enough and told it so.
> 
> ...


+100, I see this all the time, it is natural, and I agree with this and another poster that you should be able to put your dog belly up position without them freaking out.


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## nitemares (Dec 15, 2005)

Of course it exists in nature its just that dogs don't do it just because they can. They only use it when its necessary.
I think if a dog accepts a belly rub from you than you are automatically his leader, This position is a submissive position for dogs, a dog won't do it just because he likes it if he believes he's the dominant one.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

In my puppy class they taught a "chill" exercise, where, from a down position, a pup was lured to fall over onto his side using food. Then calm praise and petting while on his side, using the word "Chill" (or "relax" or "easy" or whatever). Of course, many puppies then would roll onto their backs for a tummy rub. It never occurred to me that people might see this as an "alpha roll", but apparently, some do!

FWIW, I have seen dogs "alpha roll" each other. So I don't think it's unnatural. I do think it's important for dogs to accept handling in any position, but apparently, anytime you touch a dog on the belly somebody thinks you're "alpha rolling" them.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

The alpha roll does not exist in nature as far as I know. What people are seeing and then translate into this human dominating dog are two different things. I don't know if it works for some people. Some people think it did something. I am often dubious about what it actually did. I still say if an alpha roll "worked" well, a personnprobably didn't need such a thing in the first place.

Puppy handling to condition them to hold still and calm is different and is not an alpha roll, as has been said.


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## nitemares (Dec 15, 2005)

Exactly Samba. In nature a wolf pack leader rarely force an "alpha roll". submissive wolves just roll over if he is approaching. 
same with dogs if you're a natural "leader", you wont need to force an alpha roll. and since we are not wolves or dogs, i don't think anyone should force a dog to rollover. establishing your leadership or dominance or what ever you wanna call it using other methods is much more effective IMHO.


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## nitemares (Dec 15, 2005)

Freestep said:


> In my puppy class they taught a "chill" exercise, where, from a down position, a pup was lured to fall over onto his side using food. Then calm praise and petting while on his side, using the word "Chill" (or "relax" or "easy" or whatever). Of course, many puppies then would roll onto their backs for a tummy rub. It never occurred to me that people might see this as an "alpha roll", but apparently, some do!


This is not a forceful alpha rolling at least to me, its a positive reinforcement exercise and the dog chose to roll over.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

So how much "wolf" watching and researching has everyone posting done? In my experience there is definately an "alpha roll" in nature as I have witnessed my dog do it to other dogs, but all the wolf experts on the forum seem to disagree so maybe I am incorrect. Doing a little research into "alpha rolls" the question really isn't "do they exist in the wild?" but "why are they done?" So the current wolf behavior theory states that it isn't done as a correction and as something else.

Also, the claim that "alpha rolling" causes issues in the future came from testing "alpha rolls" on dogs that have never shown aggression and then after "alpha rolls" were started the dog became more aggressive. There is really no way to test the "more aggressive tendency" theory if the "rolls" are started on a puppy. As a poster stated earlier, it might be true that my dog didn't need to be alpha rolled, but he turned out just as fine having it done to him. Do I suggest another person try to do this to him? never in a million years, but from me he accepts any kind of rolling and positioning...probably due to the alpha rolling early in his life.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Freestep said:


> In my puppy class they taught a "chill" exercise, where, from a down position, a pup was lured to fall over onto his side using food. Then calm praise and petting while on his side, using the word "Chill" (or "relax" or "easy" or whatever). Of course, many puppies then would roll onto their backs for a tummy rub. It never occurred to me that people might see this as an "alpha roll", but apparently, some do!


This is not an alpha roll. An alpha roll is when you forcibly manhandle the dog onto his back and hold him there against his will. What you're describing is a lot closer to what dogs do to each other. 



Samba said:


> The alpha roll does not exist in nature as far as I know. What people are seeing and then translate into this human dominating dog are two different things.


You're exactly right. When two dogs play, the dominant dog will lightly touch the submissive dog on its back with his head or paw and the submissive dog just kind of flops over on his own. Sometimes all it takes is a look from the dominant dog for the submissive one to roll over. I see this approximately 300 times a day with Rocky and Kopper.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Samba said:


> Puppy handling to condition them to hold still and calm is different and is not an alpha roll, as has been said.


I agree, we did handling desensitization exercises in our puppy classes, which were founded by Dr. Ian Dunbar. It was definitely NOT an alpha roll!


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

Is this the place you finally found that you liked? 

Any training who believe in alpha rolling a puppy needs to be fired.


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## AddieGirl (May 10, 2011)

Check out this guy. He looks like a complete idiot. So, if your dog is in "red zone" state, then you should definitely put your face against his. Notice his dog actually licks his face.. Good thing it wasn't pissed off.





Wow this guy is really something.... 





I can just imagine the looks he gets walking around making elephant noises at his dogs..


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

Does anyone else notice that people who are into alpha rolls uses dogs that are considered 'softer'. Would love to watch him try that on an adult GSD, Doberman, Rottweiler and god help him if he tried it on a LSG.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

If it's a true alpha roll and not the other things being described, and you are not comfortable with it, you have 2 choices, quit and keep your dog out of that environment, or tell her. Because simply undermining her methods with select owners will not benefit them and will not benefit dogs who come to the classes in the future - those would be the ones I would be as concerned about as current class members. And standing by while it's being done indicates your acceptance and support of that method.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

spiritsmom said:


> I thought no one did those anymore since all they do is scare the dog and might cause aggression later on.


Have you ever been around a dog who was very dominant and aggressive as a puppy? I have. After trying everything we got a trainer who showed us how to show our dog his place in the pack, and it was done by using the alpha roll. Our dog (he was still a puppy) attacked us the first time we did this (me and my hubby) but that was not the first time that he had attacked us but it was the last time. He was not injured, we were the first time, but he accepted our leadership afterwards. He is 2 1/2 years old now and we have had no further incidents. 

I am not saying this is the only way to deal with a dog with these issues, but it worked for us. He is not scared of us, he is no longer aggressive toward us. This training technique saved our dog from being PTS because at 116 pounds that he now is, he may well have killed us if he hadn't been trained to respect while he was still small.

I know the alpha roll isn't very popular around here, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't work. I am not going to argue about it either because I already know how other members here feel, but I just wanted to share my story.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I read that the reason the alpha roll in the dog started was due to wolf observance; however, they later realized that the wolf pack they were studying was nothing like an actual wolf pack "in the wild" because it was a captive wolf pack and nobody was leaving (as would occur in a regular "in the wild" pack) and it was very artificial. Therefore, the rolls they were seeing were not actually present in nature.

It was one of Temple Grandin's books, btw, that I found that info in. I don't know if it was true or not, but it was an interesting concept.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Have you ever been around a dog who was very dominant and aggressive as a puppy? I have. After trying everything we got a trainer who showed us how to show our dog his place in the pack, and it was done by using the alpha roll.


In our rescue, a few times now, we've had puppies come in with what I'd call 'aggression' and one sign they both showed was intolerance of having their neck touched, in extreme cases, the back of the neck, but both (or all three, I've lost count now) had an intolerance of having the front of their neck touched. They'd attempt to bite and go into almost a furious survival mode. Because of the need to handle puppies and especially as they grow, I had to basically hold the puppy (upright) and take ahold of the front of their necks. I did not force them onto their backs. Simply touching the front of their necks (at the same time avoiding a bite), after a day or so of working with them that way, they relaxed and quit being so defensive and aggressive about being handled in that manner. 

It didn't take a "roll" or being pinned on their backs to get them out of that mode.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

nitemares said:


> This is not a forceful alpha rolling at least to me, its a positive reinforcement exercise and the dog chose to roll over.


I didn't think it was either, but I said something about doing it with my pup and I was accused of being a big fat meanie "alpha rolling" my dogs like that.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

msvette2u said:


> I read that the reason the alpha roll in the dog started was due to wolf observance; however, they later realized that the wolf pack they were studying was nothing like an actual wolf pack "in the wild" because it was a captive wolf pack and nobody was leaving (as would occur in a regular "in the wild" pack) and it was very artificial. Therefore, the rolls they were seeing were not actually present in nature.
> 
> It was one of Temple Grandin's books, btw, that I found that info in. I don't know if it was true or not, but it was an interesting concept.


Not picking on the above poster they at least have the guts to say the read and found it interesting rather than talking like an authority, but for all of you telling us they don't exist in nature, tell me what I saw? Tell me, what it is I observe with my dogs? Because i'm not qualified to know, tell me.

Tell me what was happening when my old bitch put that dog down with a front leg sweep and paw against the shoulder, jump on top and buried her head in him till he stopped,t hen got off.

Tell me what was "really" happening when by brother brought his little crap head terrier over that kept biting at my dogs, and one put that little guy down rather easily, buried her shoulder into the dog while keeping her head back with teeth bared till he just stopped moving then got off and went about her business like nothing was going on.

Tell me why they do it to each other 300 times a day in play, when dogs use play to practice what will come in handy in real life situations, but it doesn't really exist in nature. Tell me what it is? Please?


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I've told this story before--when I was in college, there were several neighborhood dogs that used to roam free and would sometimes follow my dog and I on our walks. The dominant dog of the neighborhood was Bear, a huge GSD/Newf mix. He was "owned" by hippies--never knew who his actual owner was--but he was a well-adjusted, friendly, non-aggressive creature who simply enjoyed a free rein about town. 

One day he followed my dog and I on a walk, when we came upon another dog. That dog saw Bear and began to posture. Bear, in a split second, took that dog down and pinned him on his back. There was a brief struggle, then the other dog started licking Bear's face, and Bear let him up. Everything was fine and jolly after that, and then I had two neighborhood dogs happily following me on my walk.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

Freestep said:


> I didn't think it was either, but I said something about doing it with my pup and I was accused of being a big fat meanie "alpha rolling" my dogs like that.


 which is why I asked for clarification on what it was. I hardly think if this trainer was working in a facility where this person has taken other "postitive" classes, there is a trainer there telling people to slam their dogs on their backs and stare into their eyes till they submit, to establish "dominance" in a puppy.

For some reason I just don't think that would be a good working environment.

Lots of people will put their dogs in all sorts of positions, it's just a part of what they do with puppies and we don't call it anything, it just is what it is. Building trust, manners, laying foundations for everything else to come later. 

Some people don't have any idea what is important or what isn't and trainers have to put it into words they might understand. Some might call this a puppy roll or alpha roll, and speak of dominance, because let's face it, it's what 99% of the general population thinks of when they think of training dogs. They use these words, even though the actcual actions and intent are nothing like the images dog people conjur up in their minds.


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

To the above poster:

Who cares if dogs 'alpha' roll eachother all day long, 300 times? 

Are you a dog? Do you pee on your belongings to establish dominance too?

Why do people think they have to act like dogs to get dogs to behave?

I would never have to 'alpha roll' my dog, and honestly it sounds like if you have to do that to an adult dog, you are not training correctly. One "AHH" sound and Rocky instantly stops the undesirable behavior. In fact, he will usually roll on his back when he does something bad. Why should you have to physically roll your dog over to make it listen to you?


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

crackem said:


> Tell me why they do it to each other 300 times a day in play, when dogs use play to practice what will come in handy in real life situations, but it doesn't really exist in nature. Tell me what it is? Please?


If you watch them do it in play, 99% of the time it is the submission dog offering the behavior and not a forced roll. At least in all of the play that I have witnessed.

I don't believe that it really doesn't exist at all but as another poster said, it isn't done just because or to establish dominance. It is only done when needed. There are much better ways to naturally be your dog's leader than alpha rolling everyday because you can.

And like Samba said, if it's easy to roll your dog, then you probably don't need to be doing it. And you likely don't want to find out the hard way that it wasn't easy to do.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> To the above poster:
> 
> Who cares if dogs 'alpha' roll eachother all day long, 300 times?
> 
> ...


if you bow down like a human form of a play bow will your dog do it back to you? I think almost every single dog I've ever done that to in my life will do it right back, and then a game of chase ensues. I did it to a 3 year old bitch I got out of a kennel where it spent 3 years in said kennel with nothing else, same thing.

I can tell by your response, you've read a few responses by other internet experts and think it's cute and correctc. But dogs are very able to read humans like humans and dogs. It's why we have such a history together. But that's neither her nor there, i have never, EVER said you should use an alpha roll to train your adult dog. Feel free to show me where I have. I'm responding to those that are trying to tell me dogs don't alpha roll each other. I want them to explain to me what it is i'm seeing. So try and follow along.


But since you've asked, yes I've peed on my dogs, usually because they come stick their nose in the toilet when i'm going and I didn't get it shut off in time.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

gsdraven said:


> If you watch them do it in play, 99% of the time it is the submission dog offering the behavior and not a forced roll. At least in all of the play that I have witnessed.
> 
> I don't believe that it really doesn't exist at all but as another poster said, it isn't done just because or to establish dominance. It is only done when needed. There are much better ways to naturally be your dog's leader than alpha rolling everyday because you can.
> 
> And like Samba said, if it's easy to roll your dog, then you probably don't need to be doing it. And you likely don't want to find out the hard way that it wasn't easy to do.


Really?


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

gsdraven said:


> I don't believe that it really doesn't exist at all but as another poster said, it isn't done just because *or *to establish dominance.


The "or" shouldn't be there... too late to edit. The sentence actually would may have made more sense if it said "it isn't done to establish dominance just because".




crackem said:


> Really?


Yes. Really.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Tell me, what it is I observe with my dogs? Because i'm not qualified to know, tell me.


Temple went on to say (and I'll look up the book asap after this post) that our dogs live in unnatural "forced" packs as well. I have seen "alpha roll" with our older GSD who passed away a year ago last May. He'd actually run over as big/puffy as possible, hit a new dog broadside, with his chest, and send them flying. I do not know if that is an actual "alpha roll" or not. It was dramatic to say the least. And it didn't work, with a few dogs - they anticipated his coming over, and fought back. 

I believe the book is "Animals Make us Human". Temple Grandin - Books, Video's, & Dvd's

I also read "Animals in Translation" and I forget which book this discussion was in. However, I'd highly recommend both books, I started with "Animals in Translation" and gained a lot of insight into how all animals "see" the world and how we interact with them.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

AddieGirl said:


> Check out this guy. He looks like a complete idiot. So, if your dog is in "red zone" state, then you should definitely put your face against his. Notice his dog actually licks his face.. Good thing it wasn't pissed off.
> Using Corrections in Dog Training : Using Dog Roll Corrections - YouTube


If this were a dog that actually lunged at you before... what a nice way to have your face torn off!!


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

msvette2u said:


> Temple went on to say (and I'll look up the book asap after this post) that our dogs live in unnatural "forced" packs as well. I have seen "alpha roll" with our older GSD who passed away a year ago last May. He'd actually run over as big/puffy as possible, hit a new dog broadside, with his chest, and send them flying. I do not know if that is an actual "alpha roll" or not. It was dramatic to say the least. And it didn't work, with a few dogs - they anticipated his coming over, and fought back.
> 
> I believe the book is "Animals Make us Human". Temple Grandin - Books, Video's, & Dvd's
> 
> I also read "Animals in Translation" and I forget which book this discussion was in. However, I'd highly recommend both books, I started with "Animals in Translation" and gained a lot of insight into how all animals "see" the world and how we interact with them.


I"ve read both, and yes they are very good

and in the translations book, can you also share the part about how animals of any kind raised with humans from a young age will identify with them as equals. that was interesting too. I found the part about the bulls raised alone in a field not not challanging humans when they matured for dominance because they saw them as a different species and not one to compete with, vs. the bulls raised with human hands from young on and how they'd challange and injure humans when they matured because they saw them as an equal and something that needed to be dominated. Interesting read for sure.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Do you remember her discussion of alpha rolls and why they began in the 1st place, in the dog world that is - human-to-dog rolls? 

I think it's in "Animals Make us Human" but I can't remember which. I do remember the discussion and it shed a lot of light on the subject, for me. I don't perform rolls with my dogs but if I am upset enough (for instance, when I came home to a dead baby goat that my Sheltie mix killed) they will roll over themselves.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

I don't remember it specifically, sorry can't help with that. I'm sure it started much like you alluded to earlier, from some captive wolf studies, which most people will toss out as useless these days. To me, they just showed behavior in a different environment, not useless by any means, but people only want to use whey they agree with. me included 

I don't particularly like them as it they are dangerous and unless you are willing to have the fight with a dog that can hurt you, I don't think it's going to be particularly useful to 99% of the people out there.

Where I differ on this, is I do think you can absolutely communicate with a dog by using it, even if you are but a mere human. But I myself chose to communicate in other ways and I can't ever see any of my dogs doing something so offensive it would have to be done or even attempted.

and I also disagree on them not occuring naturally. I've seen it happen.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I too think they may happen but not in the context that humans want to use it.

When doing a/c work, I had the greatest "success" with putting a dog in a kennel run and being it's sole source of "everything good", including food, water, and walks. 
I'd impound dogs who wanted to eat me alive, one of the most memorable, an extremely aggressive Rottie, who, when she learned I controlled everything (remember, the "alpha" or leader controls all the resources) became my best friend. 

I think you can accomplish more with leadership and control of resources (no free feeding, dog owns nothing) than rolling a dog on it's back.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Who said it's not natural, should I be concerned? LOL:









I don't alpha roll. I do not try to establish dominance with my dogs. But I do have to cut toenails, and sometimes I do have to let the vet see the belly. So I tell my dog DOWN, and they lay down. I am always a little proud of that. Then I roll them to their side and show off the belly. This is not angry or frightening or my trying to dominate them. It is something that need to be done, and without any fan fare we do it. Piece of cake. But it is certainly nothing we practice or do to prove I can.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Forgot to add, I would not let other owners know it is not a good idea. I think if you are concerned with the technique you should go to the administration of the training classes, and tell them that you would rather they not put you in classes with this woman again and why. If she gets enough complaints, they will look into it. 

It may lose the woman her source for extra income, but if the facility wants to be primarily positive, they might not want it getting around that they advocate alpha rolls. 

I guess for puppies, I don't really care if this was a harsh roll or a get your dog into this position and hold him there sort of thing. It was portrayed as an alpha roll with the purpose of dominating the dog or teaching the dog that you are dominant. In my opinion, that is the wrong message for a positive organization to be spewing forth. 

And really, it is the owners you are training. So she is training people to be on top. I think that is bad. But I am not teaching the class. Go to the administration. In the mean time, spend your time in class and refuse to do things you are uncomfortable with. Do your own thing. If she calls you out on it, tell her in front of everyone that you do not want do do alpha rolls with your dog. If she is insistant, leave. Good trainers are accepting of the dog owner's concerns about things, and will not force an owner to do anything to their dog.


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

selzer said:


> Who said it's not natural, should I be concerned? LOL:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I do the same thing with my guys, no problem. I don't think I could Alpha Roll Jazz even if I wanted to. The guy's a tank!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> This training technique saved our dog from being PTS because at 116 pounds that he now is, he may well have killed us if he hadn't been trained to respect while he was still small.


Physical force is not the only way to get your dog to respect you, especially when you're talking about starting with a young puppy.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

I am all for handling a puppy all over and not allowing them to win by fighting you (here's a really good description of this applied on the smallest of levels with very young puppies: Raised By Wolves: Base Seven). 

However, a force-based alpha roll is picking a fight with a dog--and you're either asking for trouble or you're being a bully. If you need to do that to get your dog to respect you, I think you have failed somewhere else in the relationship.

Here's a description of a method of interacting that gets the same or better results with less hazard and less stress for dog or handler: 

yielding


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## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> If I was in that class, and was told to "alpha roll" I would:
> 
> Lay on the ground.
> 
> ...


That sounds like a great way to handle that!


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

In general, if you see an "alpha roll" in nature, what you're seeing is actually a fight manuever--even in play. It is an act of aggression (or mock aggression)--and if the bottom dog resists, you have a fight--sometimes a big fight--depending on how strong the two dogs are mentally or physically.

Again, why pick a fight with your dog? Very rarely is that going to serve you well. (Not never--but rarely!) Can't you accomplish your goals in much more subtle and controlled ways? We're the ones who control food and water and doorways, after all. And if you can't "win" a power struggle over access to some of these basics, how do you expect to win an alpha roll match?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I was always a bit confused and overwhelmed by the puppy's complete "freak out" over the handling of the neck. I mean if she was to nail you, you'd really bleed. She was what you'd probably call a "dominant" puppy, a heeler mix. 
I actually send her to a heeler experienced foster home who worked with her and explained to me how to go ahead and handle her in the manner I described earlier, so next time we had a puppy like that we did the same and the puppy learned to accept being handled "all over" including front of neck. Is it just survival x10 or something, for that particular puppy? Since that, we tend to "test" the puppies to make sure they can be handled around the neck area, since people have to put collars on, attach leads, etc. and I don't want puppies freaking out over that type handling. 



BlackthornGSD said:


> I am all for handling a puppy all over and not allowing them to win by fighting you (here's a really good description of this applied on the smallest of levels with very young puppies: Raised By Wolves: Base Seven).
> 
> However, a force-based alpha roll is picking a fight with a dog--and you're either asking for trouble or you're being a bully. If you need to do that to get your dog to respect you, I think you have failed somewhere else in the relationship.
> 
> ...


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

BTW, this is the site we give adopters when they are having issues with their dogs - 
Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong

The yielding thing is part of that, I think?


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

Here is what Rocky does when he starts misbehaving and I correct him. However, I don't stand over him like that or point my finger. 

For example, if we are playing and he gets super excited, he will every once in awhile get a little mouthy. If he grips my arm a little too hard and I say "AHH." he will instantly roll over like that dog and then lick me.

I would never force him to be held down like that. I taught him 'roll over' to roll on his side, and this is his best 'trick', even better than sit and it is probably the only trick that he will do 99% of the time with strangers because I practiced it so much incase the vet needs him to do it. I don't have to hold him down either, he will stay put.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

BlackthornGSD said:


> I am all for handling a puppy all over and not allowing them to win by fighting you (here's a really good description of this applied on the smallest of levels with very young puppies: Raised By Wolves: Base Seven).
> 
> However, a force-based alpha roll is picking a fight with a dog--and you're either asking for trouble or you're being a bully. If you need to do that to get your dog to respect you, I think you have failed somewhere else in the relationship.
> 
> ...


Read the yeilding paper, and I have already been doing this mostly to Cujo, but all the dogs really. They have to get out of my way, and if they do not, I tell them to MOVE. It's not mean or nasty, but I really do not want to be tripped up by a dog. 

But I wonder how that would work in a class setting. I mean, GSDs often anticipate what we want them to do. And if normally they need to get out of our way, when we are coming back from a stay, might they not anticipate that and get up and move? Pretty critical in an obedience trial. I usually do not have a problem with my old dogs, but with my youngsters, they often want to to do this. 

So if you correct the dog for yielding, aren't sending a mixed signal?

Just interesting.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I only make mine "yield" or move when I'm walking through. Anyone who doesn't move, I shuffle my feet until they do get up and move. 
I think during training you'd go away for short distances and use different commands, gradually increasing the distance and still using commands, and it would be much different than making them move out of the way when you're walking through the front room?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> active submission - NOT the alpha roll - YouTube
> 
> Here is what Rocky does when he starts misbehaving and I correct him. However, I don't stand over him like that or point my finger.
> 
> ...


I don't like the technique in that video. To me that looks too much like bullying. She did force the dog into that position every bit as much as if she body slammed him into it. Yes, the dog did submit. 

I guess I do not want the position in the pack where I am always trying to stay on top of everyone. If EVER a dog rolls over and shows me a belly, in my brain I step back and try to replay my body language and my voice. Because to me, that indicates fear of me. 

I do not want my dogs fearful of me EVER. Fear and respect are often confused I think. My dogs respect me. They come because I am me, and I told them to come. I would not beat them if they do not come and never have. Instead, I would go and get them. 

I guess I just do not understand why people like their dogs to look guilty or to cower. 

I am not a pack member. I am not the pack leader. I am the pack diety, a being that they and I know is a different spiecies, I speak a different language, I provide for all of their needs, I give praise, and I set limits and boundaries. And I am big enough that I do not need for them to prostrate themselves before me.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Yucky video in my opinion. I would not be happy to have that intimidating affect on the dogs here.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

selzer said:


> But I wonder how that would work in a class setting. I mean, GSDs often anticipate what we want them to do. And if normally they need to get out of our way, when we are coming back from a stay, might they not anticipate that and get up and move? Pretty critical in an obedience trial. I usually do not have a problem with my old dogs, but with my youngsters, they often want to to do this.
> 
> So if you correct the dog for yielding, aren't sending a mixed signal?
> 
> Just interesting.


I wouldn't practice the yielding in obedience scenarios. In practicing obedience exercises, you would, in effect, make it clear to the dog that the behavior desired in that situation is to stay--which is really what you're already doing in training the stay. 

I wouldn't correct the dog for moving during the learning stage anyway, though. I prefer to reward the correct behavior and teach what is desired rather than correcting for undesired behavior during the learning stages of an exercise. And if I know that a dog is particularly sensitive to my movements, I'd be working on that throughout the process of teaching the exercise.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

BlackthornGSD said:


> Again, why pick a fight with your dog? Very rarely is that going to serve you well. (Not never--but rarely!) Can't you accomplish your goals in much more subtle and controlled ways? We're the ones who control food and water and doorways, after all. And if you can't "win" a power struggle over access to some of these basics, how do you expect to win an alpha roll match?


 
*applause* :thumbup:


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

selzer said:


> If EVER a dog rolls over and shows me a belly, in my brain I step back and try to replay my body language and my voice. Because to me, that indicates fear of me.


I don't think showing belly indicates fear--fear would be running away (or trying to). When I see fearful dogs, they are not rolling over and showing their bellies, they are cowering or trying to run away. I think rolling over is an appeasement gesture, and shows submission, not fear.

And some dogs show belly because they simply want a belly rub. My Akbash dog does it all the time, and as far as I know, he was never beaten, abused, or alpha-rolled by anyone. He is submissive to humans, but not afraid of them.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Agree! If I'm going to punish Diabla and walks towards her with anger she will show me her belly, but fear? Hahaha!!!! I wish so... She can be a very good actress and will jump back in action as soon as I give her my back.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

why bully a dog that has already said "sorry"


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

I taught my dog, 3.5yo male, the "Belly" command. He always liked to get a nice belly rub so i would tell him "Belly" when he would do it by himself to get a rub. Now when I say "Belly" he will roll over and put his four paws up in the air! Seems to work!

OTOH, I don'r see a problem in making a dog do something I want him to do when I want him to do it! It's not called Obedience" for nothing.

Of course, starting out with an "Alphs Roll" with an adult GSD that you haven't done it with before can be risky and shouldn't ever be tried by an amatuer - could get bit!


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I am thinking I don't punish my dogs or walk toward a dog in anger. What is the handling methodology involved in that approach? 

I am beginning to feel I live a different sort of dog life. 

My Catahoula rescue used to show his belly quickly. Our living together has resulted in the disappearance of that behavior.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Stella's Mom said:


> That sounds like a great way to handle that!


 
Not to mention funny as heck for the rest of the class!!!!!!!!!


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## Gmthrust (Mar 3, 2010)

From the Yielding article, quote...."*GET THE %$#& OUT OF MY WAY!!!*"

This is just only my opinion and I sure don't mean to hurt anyone by saying this.......but if a trainer advocates that type of training on any of my dogs......well, the truth is, I'm usually a nice person, but may God have mercy on him because I won't.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

I don't see much of a problem for owner or dog if you gently alpha roll a little puppy - just gets them used to thinking that you are bigger and stronger than they are (which at that age you are) and they will remember it when they get bigger and thus get stronger and faster than you are.

It is just a matter of playing with the pup if they are young puppies! No stress or anything on their part - they just get used to you. Adults are a different matter - at least dome dogs are, others could care less and will just roll over.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I know that some dogs just want a belly rub and that is ok. I just don't need them to submit. Don't want that. If I get loud and nasty enough, they will. But they are doing it to appease me, because the ARE AFRAID that I will kill them. Not because they knew they did wrong. I do not WANT that. I do not NEED that, and if it does happen it means I have lost control of my temper. 

It's like, OMG Suzie is mad, really mad, she will kill me if I do not show her that I am helpless. Yuck! They do not know that you are angry because they plowed into your sprained ankle and nearly knocked you down. They just think you have lost your mind. But you are the center of the universe to them, so it is not good for them to believe you have lost their mind, so they just think they need to do something to make it better. 

They give the belly up sign to say, please don't kill me, I'm not a threat. 

And my dogs KNOW that they cannot get away. I can catch them. There really isn't anywhere to go. So they are not going to cower or run, they are going to go for the home run and show the belly. Just like when they are kenneled or on leash, if they are afraid, flight is removed, so fight is their only option. It is the same, if I have blown my top, flight is not an option, they are not going to fight me, so they are going to roll over and say, I give up. 

The belly up signal is equivalent to a puppy peeing to appease a larger dog -- something in their urine is effective in calming the other dog. We do not like to see our pups do that submissive urination. why would we want for them to show us their belly -- except for a belly rub. And they are only asking for a belly rub when you are in a good mood.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

selzer said:


> It's like, OMG Suzie is mad, really mad, she will kill me if I do not show her that I am helpless.


Hehe. I don't know your dogs, but I don't think they are honestly in fear of their lives if you've never done anything to threaten their lives. 

The way I see it, rolling over when the owner is mad is an appeasement gesture or "apology", for lack of a better word. When I apologize or try to appease someone, I don't do it because I am afraid they're going to kill me, unless they've threatened it previously. And I don't think dogs do it either-- All social animals must have a means of appeasement to keep harmony in the group. It's part of everyday pack life, and it's usually far more subtle than showing belly, but I continue to believe that submissive posture does not necessarily indicate fear. Fear is fight or flight. I believe submission is something different; it's a social lubricant, a way of "taking responsibility", if that isn't too anthropomorphic. It is a way of avoiding the punishment, not the *person*, if that makes sense?

You say your dog cannot run away as there is nowhere to run to, but if she was truly fearful, she would cower into a corner and try to bite you if you came near, rather than simply rolling over. A fearful dog will not trust you. A dog that shows belly has a measure of trust, at least, that you will not kill her--if she honestly thought you would kill her, she wouldn't waste time rolling over, she'd either get the heck out of there or fight for her life.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

after reading this thread i decided to alpha roll my 4 year
old, 88 lb dog. when i tried to roll him his upper front
part of his body rolled (sort of). i didn't like the way
i moved him. my GF asked "what are doing"? i told her
i wanted to alpha roll the dog to see what he'll do.
my GF gathered his hind legs and i took his front legs
and we rolled him to his back. he didn't do anything.
after we let him go my GF said "good boy" and petted him.
our boy got up and went to the refrigerator
and sat in front of it (that means give me a treat).
his treats are on the top of the refrigerator.

i've never seen the need to alpha roll a dog.
i also don't buy into "dog dominance". i guess i'm the pack leader
but i was forced into that position because my dog
can't cook, clean, drive me to the store, feed us,
pay for vacations, bathe me, etc.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

doggiedad said:


> after reading this thread i decided to alpha roll my 4 year
> old, 88 lb dog. when i tried to roll him his upper front
> part of his body rolled (sort of). i didn't like the way
> i moved him. my GF asked "what are doing"? i told her
> ...


I don't know what possessed you or inspired you to do that after reading this thread but :laugh: that is a funny story! Your dog probably thought you were nuts, and he was like-where is my treat for putting up with that!


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## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

To clarify, this is a training club that I was thinking of applying for membership to. I have taken a few classes and liked the trainers I'd had. I've not had this trainer before but she is into the whole establishing dominance thing. Apparently from what I can tell this club must not have an overall philosophy on training that all trainers must follow because each seems to instruct their own way using their own personal philosophies. I have just had good experiences before because the other trainers used positive methods.

Now this one does call this alpha rolling and while she instructs you to be gentle about it she does mean for you to pin your puppy on their back and to only let them back up once they "submit" to you i.e. - stop struggling/squirming/what have you. You need to keep the puppy retrained on their back until they cease to move basically. If that is not the classic definition of an alpha roll I don't know what is then. 

Now if she were doing it to desensitize to handling that would be fine but I would not call it alpha rolling. I do have my puppy (and dogs) lay down and roll over so I can handle their feet, give a belly rub or whatever. In class when we trade puppies I make sure to handle the puppy I am dealing with all over - using Dunbar's pass the puppy game. That is completely different from what this trainer is advocating - she does spend a bit of time talking about establishing dominance over your dog. But her other methods are positive - very treat/reward orientated so maybe she is confused over what she believes is the right way to train. 

I have never fully subscribed to whole dominate your dog/treat your dog like a wolf idea. I have read alot of learning theory books and realizing that what people thought about wolf packs was all wrong because they were studying captive wolves just blew my mind. 

My dogs are not going to take over the household because I don't care who goes out the door first, who eats first, don't alpha roll them to remind them who is in charge and the list goes on. I got my dogs to be my friends and my pets, part of my family and I will not act like I have to be ever vigilant about "the rules" or else one of my wolves (oh sorry, dogs) will take over my home and dominate me. My 4 yr old daughter loves to help with training - the dogs listen to her not because she alpha rolls them with mommy but because yummy, good things come from her if they do as she asks. If you have to be always on guard to make sure you never let your alpha position slip lest your dog/wolf take over then really where is the joy and fun in dog ownership?

I cannot find contact info for this trainer, just a general e-mail contact but I do now want to broach the subject with her after class one evening - I have to miss next week's class so it will have to be the one after. But I would like to know her reasoning for putting out such an idea to puppy owners. If I want to join this club then I need to know more about exactly what message they are promoting.


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## Andy Sepulveda (Aug 15, 2011)

I thought the video was pretty funny. How not to train a dog - Alpha Roll by K9-1.com - YouTube
and this one How not to train your dog - House Breaking by K9-1.com - YouTube


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

What in the world is a reason to get mad at a dog? I can not think of any. Now if we were talking people my list would be somewhat long and I appreciate appeasement behavior!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Samba said:


> What in the world is a reason to get mad at a dog? I can not think of any. Now if we were talking people my list would be somewhat long and I appreciate appeasement behavior!


Exactly. If the dog does something, chews something, well its on me, for leaving him access when he was not ready. I don't want him to crouch, look guilty, pee, or flip over and show me his belly.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

It's a chronic condition; people assume dogs think like they do. It never occurs them, "different species, different thought process". I'm not being facetious!


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## MountainGSDs (Jul 25, 2011)

Well I'm sort of between thoughts and I don't necessarily jump on the train because everybody else is on it. In the 70s we used it and to be honest if you start with a pup it appears to be somewhat effective. To try it on an adult or an adult with issues could be dangerous.
Now days I tend to physically handle my pups mostly for fun and to get them used to the idea that I can handle them for examination or what ever when I need to.

Just be careful what bandwagon you jump on because the pendulum swings both ways but eventually stops near the middle.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

One does need a degree of influence over the dog in order to get them to comply with you in all situations. You have to be able to "reach the dog"within their mind from a distance. Physical handling and learning to give to it is important, IMO. It may also send a message to te brain that can be helpful in attaining this influence. I like a pup to know early on that I can place you in a position, cause you to do something and have you comply etc. I do believe in hands on work that teaches a dog and sends a message.


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## Achielles UD (May 26, 2001)

Andy Sepulveda said:


> I thought the video was pretty funny. How not to train a dog - Alpha Roll by K9-1.com - YouTube


I was going to post this too 

I think the problem is that too many think of the "alpha roll" as an action, something that 'needs' to be done to a dog; rather than an "alpha role." 

As a person in an "alpha role" you control the resources (play, food, rest, socializing, etc). Leadership is what is needed here, not physical bullying or WWF Smackdowns. 

The traditional idea of an "alpha roll," that of a more dominate canid physically bullying a submissive to 'prove' his dominance, has been disproven and revoked many times over. We now know that the submissive will voluntarily roll over to the dominate to try to appease/apologize. It has also been shown that the canids who did psychologicly bully members of the pack too frequently with "alpha rolls" were ousted! 

I don't want to psychologially bully my dogs. Whether by the intimidation and finger pointing with 'angry' face or through an "alpha roll." Why would anyone who loves dogs? 

The act in some puppy classes of accepting restraint, is not an "alpha roll." Anyone who says to do a "Gentle" "alpha roll" is fooling themselves. A gentle roll is not a "roll" at all. I see nothing wrong with physical manipulation of a puppy to accustom them to being restrained by myself or strangers. But don't call it an "alpha roll." An "alpha roll" is a fight. Period. It is a fight until something 'gives'. Whether it is a dog apologizing with a lowered posture, grin, lip licking, show of genitals or one of the dogs in the fight being severely injured or dead. I do not want to get into a fight with a dog! 

If you "alpha roll" your dog and your dog lets you (read: doesn't bite your face off!) - your dog didn't need the roll in the first place. Providing clear, fair, consistant Leadership would have given you the same result without being a dictator or bully.

Learn the "Alpha Role" instead  How to manage and control resources and teach your dog how to earn those resources. Your relationship will be MUCH better with it


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## gsd_newbie (Aug 23, 2011)

Although I've read alot of articles on 'Alpha role', and found some merit on the theory, I'm still not so sure if I have to apply on training my dog. But I do believe Alpha role (or whatever term you might want to describe) exist in nature. In my area, dogs and bitches are roaming free, and at any given time, I can always see a group of 5 or 6 domestic dogs playing together. There is always a bolder dog (not necessarily bigger or stronger) who control and rule the pack. He often shows what I might call Alpha role by holding a snap in the neck of underdog until the loser submissive. He is the one decide when the pack play, where the pack roam, and he always eat first. And when it comes to mating, he is the only one who has the privilege, in front of the pack. I have seen no other dogs dare to challenge him, even when the pair are tied, which any Beta dogs would consider as a golden opportunity to overthrow.

So if Alpha role doesn't exist, then what would you call what I've been observing?


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## gsd_newbie (Aug 23, 2011)

Oops! I only realized after I posted. The topic is about ALPHA ROLL, NOT ALPHA ROLE. Sorry for my bad English.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

I know it's a much longer drive, but have you seen the new addition to the QC building? 

There a dachshund trial there all day Saturday (tomorrow), so feel free to stop by and have a look around. 

Queen City Dog Training Club


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Samba said:


> What in the world is a reason to get mad at a dog? I can not think of any. Now if we were talking people my list would be somewhat long and I appreciate appeasement behavior!


 
Big agreement about people!!! Heh Heh!

How about if a dog bites you? That might make me at least a little disturbed at him!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

When folks say that the "Alpha" dog doesn't have to "physically" roll a subordinate to demonstrate dominance, that in fact the submissive one just does it naturally when the alpha comes near it - very true! 

BUT, think about how did the two dogs work out who is dominant and alpha in the first place??????


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## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

Carole - I would love to stop by QC's building - I can try to squeeze it in. Have alot going on tomorrow, there's a doggie pool day in West Carrollton and then a festival and other assorted things going on. I had bad timing on signing Glory up for their puppy class and already had Nyxie enrolled in Rally O here so I figured it was easier to just bring Glory along for the puppy class here. It would just be so easy to be a member at this club since it is just 5 mins up the street versus QC that is a half hour drive on a good day.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

I understand. We have regular member who drive up from Kentucky.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

codmaster said:


> When folks say that the "Alpha" dog doesn't have to "physically" roll a subordinate to demonstrate dominance, that in fact the submissive one just does it naturally when the alpha comes near it - very true!
> 
> BUT, think about how did the two dogs work out who is dominant and alpha in the first place??????



In my experience it is not the dominant or the submissive dogs that are physically asserting their position. The submissive pup, knows by the way the dominant dog struts that he is no match for him. They stare each other down with their raised tails, and the other dogs back down. It is only those close in power that might want to duke it out. 

But that is all silly. I am not a dog, and I do not have to duke it out with them.


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## Danielle609 (Jun 18, 2011)

Screw the alpha roll...I have heard that the alpha **wrap** is much more effective anyways....


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Cute picture, alpha wrap.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Ahaha!! Puppy burrito! I make dog and cat burritos all the time, only I use a towel instead of a tortilla. Maybe I'm doing it wrong.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

:rofl:


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I don't like to be bitten and fortunately that has not happened often. So, in my life with my dogs, there are not those moments. 

Yes, in a pain reaction to a bite, I might get mad. But, there isn't much I am going to do to the dog at that point. I might quickly react with a bonk if it is one of the kid's small dogs complaining about grooming. I have only been bitten hard one time and that was an accident on the dog's part and mine. Once I got over the pass out feeling, I headed to the house ASAP. 
I had a dog give me a scrape once. I then back tied him and had him do obedience behaviors for me so he got an understanding of how this works between us. 

Alpha Rolling, belly behavior etc never occurred to me with that particular dog. There would have been nothing smart or useful in that. He had a lot of fight in him. No need to send a message that I am willing to engage in a physical altercation. It would likely have been counter productive from a behavioral improvement standpoint.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I like to do puppy tipping with Halo, kinda like cow tipping - does that count as an alpha roll? :wild: She loves to jump on the bed and roll around on her back and I'll grab her legs and flip her over onto her side, or if she's standing up I give her a push to tip her over. She finds it quite amusing. She also has an evening ritual that she does every night while we're watching TV - she does the same rolling around on her back thing but on the carpet, and then she stops and lays there awhile with her legs flopped over. We tell her how silly she looks and she grins and wags her tail. If I go over to her she gets belly rubs, which she also enjoys.


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## matthewm11 (Oct 18, 2011)

According to wolf researcher Mech (sp?) alpha rolls are ritualistic displays initaiated by the wolf in the submissive position, and a wolf would only force another wolf on its belly if it intended to kill them. 

Even if dogs and/or wolves do alpha roll one another to establish dominence, that doesn't (imo) mean people should. Dogs recognize that we are not dogs and they are not human. I think acting like a dog to discipline your dog just confuses them as to why you are acting the way you are. Letting them know you controll their resources through NILIF and consistent leadership shows the dog who is boss.


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

I taught my 119 lb newfie mix to "belly" whenever I ask him to. His reward is a belly rub most of the time! He doesn't mind at all. I don't recall ever having to forcefully roll him....it just was another trick he learned. Very useful one too. I intend to teach my 5 month old shepherd the same trick....


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

De-Bunking the "Alpha Dog" Theory - Whole Dog Journal Article



> The erroneous approach to canine social behavior known as dominance theory (two million-plus Google hits) is based on a study of captive zoo wolves conducted in the 1930s and 1940s by Swiss animal behaviorist Rudolph Schenkel, in which the scientist concluded that wolves in a pack fight to gain dominance, and the winner is the alpha wolf.
> 
> 
> *Bad Extrapolation
> ...


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Guilty. Me guilty. I did alpha rolls with my two oldest dogs. Exactly twice per dog I think. Not the slam them on the back and stare them down an inch from their face style of roll, but something less violent, but still a "roll."

The incidents resulted from totally unacceptable behavior when they were testing their bounds as adolescents. I can't quote you the exact circumstance, but to me, at the time, it was very simply, unacceptable.

With my very first dog, in 1989, alpha rolls were the thing to do. I don't recall ever doing that with that dog, as he was a very gentle thing... but it was still in my head. It had been put there in training class. There was no internet then to research. 

So I did it with them and I can't say I regret it. Never had to do it again after those couple times with each. I think it was likely over guarding chewies/bones, but I'm not sure.... it's been quite awhile since they were adolescents.

I completely knew that I would not "lose" the "fight." They are smallish dogs and even if they bit, I wouldn't have let up. You may rip me apart for saying so, but it really did make for a turning point. Neither of those dogs have challenged me since.

I won't attempt to "alpha roll" Bailey. I think I've learned better strategies now and I also do NOT fully trust my ability to "win" the "roll." He's big, he's strong and has much larger teeth. 

I think my post was the only one with any positive mention of rolls. I'm sure I'll get torn apart now. Eeek.


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## Suka (Apr 9, 2004)

My partner works with beluga whales, otters, sea lions and penguins. Hold on a second.. I'm going to ask her if any of the trainers used the alpha roll when training dolphins to find underwater mines...

She laughed and said these animals will hurt you in a one-to-one battle, guess what - dogs too....

"exude confidence not dominance"


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## vicky2200 (Oct 29, 2010)

I've read this a million times on this site but I really have never had a problem with this technique. I wouldn't recommend doing it every day just to establish dominance, but sometimes it has been helpful when the dog is not listening. My dogs are not afraid of me either. How is this any different from a mother dog scolding a misbehaving pup?


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## Suka (Apr 9, 2004)

vicky2200 said:


> I've read this a million times on this site but I really have never had a problem with this technique. I wouldn't recommend doing it every day just to establish dominance, but sometimes it has been helpful when the dog is not listening. My dogs are not afraid of me either. How is this any different from a mother dog scolding a misbehaving pup?


Well, your dog is not a pup and you aren't a mother dog.


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