# Looking for working breeders...



## John456 (Nov 27, 2021)

That produce strong civil aggression, strong hunt, and strong fight drives. Strong social aggression and an attitude is a bonus too ?

Thanks in advance for any suggestions or leads members might have. I already have a few ideas but looking for more. Much appreciated.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

My dog out of Fraserglen / Carmspack is all these things. He's DDR/Czech/WGWL. 






Fraserglen's Valor of Carmspack


Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Fraserglen's Valor of Carmspack




www.pedigreedatabase.com





Can I ask how much experience you have with working line dogs? You are asking for a lot of dog and that can be problematic for an inexperienced handler.

Others will be along with more suggestions.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Sportwaffen K9. Indianapolis, IN.
But, if you're an inexperienced handler good luck getting Nate or anyone else to sell you a dog like that.


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## REEHGE (Feb 16, 2020)

Whats the difference between civil aggression and social aggression I had assumed they were used interchangeably? 'Civil' and 'Social' being two different things until you add aggression behind them?

(sorry don't mean to hijack)


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

What's your intended purpose for the dog?


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I don’t know if it’s right but just my guess: Civil agression when a dog is not intimidated by and will fight a man without hesitation. Social aggression is when a dog hates people in general?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

GSD07 said:


> I don’t know if it’s right but just my guess: Civil agression when a dog is not intimidated by and will fight a man without hesitation. Social aggression is when a dog hates people in general?


It's not a common term, social aggression, that I know of. I was thinking a dog that was always looking to rise socially. A more dominant type.

Carmspack dogs are stranger neutral in general.


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## mnm (Jan 9, 2006)

A lot depends on your experience with working GSD's, and what your plans are for the dog...


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

Seems for what your looking for the dog better have solid nerves or you will have a high liability on your hands.


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## REEHGE (Feb 16, 2020)

Experience and perspective are always huge to all apects of a dog but I have noticed especially some of these terms or phrases seemingly vary a good bit even by different experienced breeders and trainers definitions. Just makes it apparent to me that it should be a good part of the in depth conversation with your breeder to make sure you are on the same wave lengths....


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

BigOzzy2018 said:


> Seems for what your looking for the dog better have solid nerves or you will have a high liability on your hands.


Most definitely, and a good bit of impulse control. That's a high maintenance dog.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm just going to go to my standard reply with this request that sounds like you are looking for a dominant, man-eater....

Find clubs. Meet dogs.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> I'm just going to go to my standard reply with this request that sounds like you are looking for a dominant, man-eater....
> 
> Find clubs. Meet dogs.


The idea is often different than the reality.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Jax08 said:


> I'm just going to go to my standard reply with this request that sounds like you are looking for a dominant, man-eater....
> 
> Find clubs. Meet dogs.


Yeah, I re-read the original post and it does sound like the OP is looking for a werewolf lol


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## John456 (Nov 27, 2021)

David Winners said:


> My dog out of Fraserglen / Carmspack is all these things. He's DDR/Czech/WGWL.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for the lead on Fraserglen. I have read some of your posts on Valor and he is a very nice dog. I have also read quite a few posts from Carmen and her knowledge and experience is impressive. They are definitely a breeder I'm interested in. 

From my reading of Carmen's posts, she prefers a medium threshold dog and from what I've read of Valor he seems to fit that - would that be accurate in your opinion?

Do you know if the other pups in the litter also inherited good hunt drives?

As far as my experience with working lines it is safe to say I'm a mere speck in comparison to you and many others on this forum. With that said, I have had experience with several German Shepherds of close to the temperaments I described above. However, the dogs I've experienced have had what I call lower thresholds or sharp dogs with confidence and good nerves - some may say they are thinner nerves. Short fused. High anger.

I am confident that I could handle any temperament I ended up with but with proper research I'm hoping to get close to what I look for. I understand no dog is perfect and you have to work with whatever dog is in front you. Wouldn't really want a nerve bag and that is why confidence is very important.

Don't get me wrong, I would be very happy with a well bred medium threshold dog that was serious. 

I am doing some research now because I hope to acquire a pup in about two years and hopefully another one shortly after that.


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## John456 (Nov 27, 2021)

cdwoodcox said:


> Sportwaffen K9. Indianapolis, IN.
> But, if you're an inexperienced handler good luck getting Nate or anyone else to sell you a dog like that.


Yes, I've looked at his pedigrees for a couple of years now and he likes what I like for the most part. Thank you.

I think that a couple of problems when looking for this type of dog are: 1) some of these traits aren't being selected for such as hunt drive and 2) when the whole package is bred into a dog the breeder keeps them back for themselves or friends who are connected with the breeder already. I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, Nate only breeds a few litters a year thus reducing any chance of receiving the best dog. So you're right that I'll probably need a lot of luck getting what I want from Nate but I will definitely talk to him in the future myself and see what he thinks.

From what I understand you have a Sportwaffen pup now. How would you describe her or is it still too early to tell - or maybe anything you'd like to share about her?

I'll have to go and read some more of your posts. I have read some of member hunterisgreat's posts on his Sportwaffen dog.

Do you or your friends have any experience with any Staatsmacht dogs?


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## John456 (Nov 27, 2021)

REEHGE said:


> Whats the difference between civil aggression and social aggression I had assumed they were used interchangeably? 'Civil' and 'Social' being two different things until you add aggression behind them?
> 
> (sorry don't mean to hijack)





REEHGE said:


> Experience and perspective are always huge to all apects of a dog but I have noticed especially some of these terms or phrases seemingly vary a good bit even by different experienced breeders and trainers definitions. Just makes it apparent to me that it should be a good part of the in depth conversation with your breeder to make sure you are on the same wave lengths....


I know what you mean about definitions because even the most experienced sometimes have a hard time agreeing from discussions I've read.

Check out Armin Winkler's definitions at Shutzhund Village. I think it's a good resource for getting a basic understanding.

There is also a good thread somewhere on this board on civil and social aggression. 

For me, I like a dog that has genetic desire to bite humans and will do so without training. Of course training will help the dog be a better fighter but I like it to be there genetically to begin with.


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## John456 (Nov 27, 2021)

WNGD said:


> What's your intended purpose for the dog?


To bite people and be my snuggle bug.


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## John456 (Nov 27, 2021)

BigOzzy2018 said:


> Seems for what your looking for the dog better have solid nerves or you will have a high liability on your hands.


Nervy is okay as long as it has confidence.


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## John456 (Nov 27, 2021)

Jax08 said:


> I'm just going to go to my standard reply with this request that sounds like you are looking for a dominant, man-eater....
> 
> Find clubs. Meet dogs.


Actually, I'm looking for the breed standard with a dash of spice.


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## John456 (Nov 27, 2021)

GSD07 said:


> Yeah, I re-read the original post and it does sound like the OP is looking for a werewolf lol


Just the breed standard with a little extra mustard.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

John456 said:


> Thank you for the lead on Fraserglen. I have read some of your posts on Valor and he is a very nice dog. I have also read quite a few posts from Carmen and her knowledge and experience is impressive. They are definitely a breeder I'm interested in.
> 
> From my reading of Carmen's posts, she prefers a medium threshold dog and from what I've read of Valor he seems to fit that - would that be accurate in your opinion?
> 
> ...


Yes, I would call him medium threshold with solid nerves. He is serious. I don't know about hunt in the rest of the litter as they don't do the same things we do. I know Carmen has bred a lot of tracking dogs and LE dogs.

Valor will gallop for long periods while searching, even up and down hills and through tough brush. That's not common. I'd put him in the top 10% of dogs I've seen as far as hunt drive goes. We will see how he matures but it typically only gets better when they settle and develop some real work ethic.

I haven't worked him in protection enough to give you an opinion. He's still maturing and I'm letting that happen before I start working him. I don't think it's right to call a dog civil without working them on hidden equipment in strange places on strange helpers. 

If you are interested in a green dog that you can go test, your chances of getting a man stopper are better than getting a pup. There are plenty of green dogs coming over the pond that are low threshold and have the nerves to fight. They aren't cheap If you want a top tier dog, you would have to go to a broker that pays top dollar for top dogs and has the right connections. Lots of big money dogs I wouldn't feed out there.


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## rotdocpa1 (Mar 19, 2018)

Just keep in mind that very civil dogs can be a real headache. I have seen a number of handler aggressive dogs through the years which is not fun for the owner involved. I have two friends with malinois that would be described as very socially aggressive. Neither dog is safe around friends or family. Both are primarily kennel dogs. One was imported from Eastern europe. Breeders select for this more in Romania, Serbia etc. The tough part is that you really can't board these dogs for vacation, veterinary care may be declined or done only under full sedation so they can be a real headache. Even in a well bred litter very civil dogs are rare and hopefully a responsible breeder would decline to sell to a pet home. I have had only a couple of litters and looking at the 8 males in total only one would I consider civil in the way you refer. Out of the 8 males 4 are police dogs including the one I refer to and 2 are doing schutzhund. Personally I would not want a whole bunch like him but they have their purpose just not as pets.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

John456 said:


> Yes, I've looked at his pedigrees for a couple of years now and he likes what I like for the most part. Thank you.
> 
> I think that a couple of problems when looking for this type of dog are: 1) some of these traits aren't being selected for such as hunt drive and 2) when the whole package is bred into a dog the breeder keeps them back for themselves or friends who are connected with the breeder already. I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, Nate only breeds a few litters a year thus reducing any chance of receiving the best dog. So you're right that I'll probably need a lot of luck getting what I want from Nate but I will definitely talk to him in the future myself and see what he thinks.
> 
> ...


My female pup is sired by a Staatchmat male, dam is sportwaffen. I am super happy with her. excellent nerves, balanced drives, confident, plenty of fight drive/aggression. What you described is what she is proving to be. but she is balanced well. she can learn and play in prey, but she shows a very serious side. she is still a big puppy but there is no doubt that its there. that being said. she is not a dog that's very fun to watch a movie with. Excellent to work and train. But, around kids, and just chilling in the house she's too intense for that.
Per Nate's litters. He has pretty consistent litters. two on the ground right now, more planned. he isn't a puppy mill with 50 pups on the ground at all times but what he breeds is quality. And yes as a breeder you have to keep quality stock back for your program. but, you also have to bring in fresh so you don't bottleneck. Guess it depends on how patient you are.
From what I hear staatsmacht would also produce the kind of dog you are looking for.


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## John456 (Nov 27, 2021)

rotdocpa1 said:


> Just keep in mind that very civil dogs can be a real headache. I have seen a number of handler aggressive dogs through the years which is not fun for the owner involved. I have two friends with malinois that would be described as very socially aggressive. Neither dog is safe around friends or family. Both are primarily kennel dogs. One was imported from Eastern europe. Breeders select for this more in Romania, Serbia etc. The tough part is that you really can't board these dogs for vacation, veterinary care may be declined or done only under full sedation so they can be a real headache. Even in a well bred litter very civil dogs are rare and hopefully a responsible breeder would decline to sell to a pet home. I have had only a couple of litters and looking at the 8 males in total only one would I consider civil in the way you refer. Out of the 8 males 4 are police dogs including the one I refer to and 2 are doing schutzhund. Personally I would not want a whole bunch like him but they have their purpose just not as pets.


I can definitely relate to some of what you're saying, just not with malinois as I've only had German Shepherds. I would speculate that these traits are on a scale and the more extreme end of the spectrum would more likely be found in malinois/dutch shepherd.

Are you breeding German Shepherds or malinois? Either way, that is very impressive.


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## John456 (Nov 27, 2021)

David Winners said:


> Yes, I would call him medium threshold with solid nerves. He is serious. I don't know about hunt in the rest of the litter as they don't do the same things we do. I know Carmen has bred a lot of tracking dogs and LE dogs.
> 
> Valor will gallop for long periods while searching, even up and down hills and through tough brush. That's not common. I'd put him in the top 10% of dogs I've seen as far as hunt drive goes. We will see how he matures but it typically only gets better when they settle and develop some real work ethic.
> 
> ...


Valor sounds like a super dog and I'm sure you'll train him to do amazing PP or whatever you want. The hunt drive sounds top notch too. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Valor has civil trait as from what I've read she places a lot of value on genetics. 

Are many of the dogs coming over the pond German Shepherds?

I would imagine a good German Shepherd would be very pricey like you said.

In regards to the dogs you wouldn't feed, is that usually due to environmental issues?


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## John456 (Nov 27, 2021)

cdwoodcox said:


> My female pup is sired by a Staatchmat male, dam is sportwaffen. I am super happy with her. excellent nerves, balanced drives, confident, plenty of fight drive/aggression. What you described is what she is proving to be. but she is balanced well. she can learn and play in prey, but she shows a very serious side. she is still a big puppy but there is no doubt that its there. that being said. she is not a dog that's very fun to watch a movie with. Excellent to work and train. But, around kids, and just chilling in the house she's too intense for that.
> Per Nate's litters. He has pretty consistent litters. two on the ground right now, more planned. he isn't a puppy mill with 50 pups on the ground at all times but what he breeds is quality. And yes as a breeder you have to keep quality stock back for your program. but, you also have to bring in fresh so you don't bottleneck. Guess it depends on how patient you are.
> From what I hear staatsmacht would also produce the kind of dog you are looking for.


Thank you for this information. Sounds like you got a very nice pup. I haven't had a chance to do much reading lately but I also noticed that you are doing helper work for Nate too. That is awesome and allows you first hand knowledge working with these dogs. You are very lucky to be able to see a variety of dogs and assess the different temperaments and genetics.

Good luck with everything and I'll keep reading your posts in the future and see how you're doing.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

John456 said:


> Valor sounds like a super dog and I'm sure you'll train him to do amazing PP or whatever you want. The hunt drive sounds top notch too. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Valor has civil trait as from what I've read she places a lot of value on genetics.
> 
> Are many of the dogs coming over the pond German Shepherds?
> 
> ...


There are still plenty of GSDs going into working roles. The ones I wouldn't feed are typically nervy and sharp. That's fine for a kennel patrol dog but not for my home.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

A few dogs that I know of that come to mind are Cerberus Aus dem talk with Megan(aus dem tal), his sire Ace vom haus tyson, Owen van de zeelburg, and Jorry z Kraje Husitu. What you end up with will also depend on the other half of the breeding.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

David Winners said:


> There are still plenty of GSDs going into working roles. The ones I wouldn't feed are typically nervy and sharp. That's fine for a kennel patrol dog but not for my home.


I could only imagine dealing with that type of dog right now while I’m traveling and staying in different hotels. Not something I want any part of.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Bearshandler said:


> I could only imagine dealing with that type of dog right now while I’m traveling and staying in different hotels. Not something I want any part of.


Traveling with Fama when I first got her was a nightmare. Lunging at people behind me. Ballistic in her crate. Popping her tail twice. Blood everywhere. Not fun.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

David Winners said:


> That's fine for a kennel patrol dog but not for my home.


Not much fun for that either. Lol


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

David Winners said:


> Traveling with Fama when I first got her was a nightmare. Lunging at people behind me. Ballistic in her crate. Popping her tail twice. Blood everywhere. Not fun.


It’s amazing how far you two came.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I’ve read Fama’s story. She was such an amazing dog ❤ 

I strongly believe that any sound dog, and patrol dogs should be sound, can be a great dog to live with. It’s just people don’t have or don’t want or do not see a need to take the time to develop this side of the dog.

My current dogs breeder told me that if I focus and work on one drive it will become stronger and stronger and often at the expense of other drives and qualities. I should focus on the entire dog and strive for a well rounded dog as my pup certainly has genetics for being exactly that. (He’s a higher drive pretty hard dog, that’s why I had this conversation with the breeder).

Easier said than done lol


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## rotdocpa1 (Mar 19, 2018)

We have shepherds. Personally I rec a neutral to social dog for most people w good nerves and high thresholds. Much less of a liability. My current male is very deceptive as he is a social butterfly. As my husband puts it: 99% sweet, 1 % not sweet but the flip from the one side to the other is very fast and intense. Fortunately he is very good in normal day to day interactions. I have seen a number of males w handler aggression and can tell you that many get rehomed due to it.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

So they rehome the HA dog. What does the new home do, rehome again?


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## rotdocpa1 (Mar 19, 2018)

Depends on the situation. Some end up with a very experienced handler/pro trainer that can deal with it. dog may be better off not as a house pet but comes out to train only and is primarily kenneled. Some may end with police or if really aggressive they can work a prison. Depends on the dog and severity, circumstances it occurs in, level of nerves, the triggers, many variables. If the dog has enormous potential in schutzhund there will be somebody interested but not as a pet obviously. Some are milder and the owner can work around as long as no young kids also.


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## John456 (Nov 27, 2021)

Bearshandler said:


> A few dogs that I know of that come to mind are Cerberus Aus dem talk with Megan(aus dem tal), his sire Ace vom haus tyson, Owen van de zeelburg, and Jorry z Kraje Husitu. What you end up with will also depend on the other half of the breeding.


Thanks for the lead, I appreciate it. I'll take a closer look at this soon.


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## John456 (Nov 27, 2021)

rotdocpa1 said:


> We have shepherds. Personally I rec a neutral to social dog for most people w good nerves and high thresholds. Much less of a liability. My current male is very deceptive as he is a social butterfly. As my husband puts it: 99% sweet, 1 % not sweet but the flip from the one side to the other is very fast and intense. Fortunately he is very good in normal day to day interactions. I have seen a number of males w handler aggression and can tell you that many get rehomed due to it.


I had a quick look at the pedigree for your litters that you posted. Thank you for the information and congrats on your success.

I was curious as to which lines or dogs you have seen handler aggression?

I am not too concerned with HA as I do have some experience with it. I can't say it's something I jump for joy about but am willing to accept that risk when looking for aggression. I do know that there are some lines and dogs that are more prone to have a genetic propensity for it and I really enjoy learning about the dogs/lines that carry this trait. Any information is always appreciated. If you don't want to publicly post dog names I would be really interested in PM if you had time.

Also, do you think the handler aggression cases you've seen are the result of poor foundation/boundaries or are we talking about experienced handlers raising these pups?

Although some dogs display both, would it be safe to say that you are talking about social/dominant aggression and not redirected aggression?


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## wtfalanseaman (Dec 2, 2021)

John456 said:


> That produce strong civil aggression, strong hunt, and strong fight drives. Strong social aggression and an attitude is a bonus too ?
> 
> Thanks in advance for any suggestions or leads members might have. I already have a few ideas but looking for more. Much appreciated.


i LIVE IN THE JUNGLE OF COSTA RICA. MY DOGS USED TO B PETS, BUT ARE NOW GUARD DOGS BY NECESSITY. WORD ON THE STREET IS THAT "THE ****** HAS THREE LIONS", AND THAT IS JUST FINE WITH ME. I SALVAGED ROCKY FIVE YEARS AGO, BEFORE HE WAS SHOT FOR BEING A VICIOUS STREET DOG. HERE HE IS ENJOYING HIS BONE ON MY LAP AFTER BREAKFAST. I GOT ROCKY AT 50 POUNDS, AND NOW HE IS 60 KILOS. WILL NOT LET ME POST HIS PHOTO.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

wtfalanseaman said:


> i LIVE IN THE JUNGLE OF COSTA RICA. MY DOGS USED TO B PETS, BUT ARE NOW GUARD DOGS BY NECESSITY. WORD ON THE STREET IS THAT "THE **** HAS THREE LIONS", AND THAT IS JUST FINE WITH ME. I SALVAGED ROCKY FIVE YEARS AGO, BEFORE HE WAS SHOT FOR BEING A VICIOUS STREET DOG. HERE HE IS ENJOYING HIS BONE ON MY LAP AFTER BREAKFAST. I GOT ROCKY AT 50 POUNDS, AND NOW HE IS 60 KILOS. WILL NOT LET ME POST HIS PHOTO.


Please refrain from posting in all caps. It is considered yelling. Also, please refrain from swearing.

I suggest you read the forum rules.








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