# I am so....... i dont even know



## myshepharley

Took kids for a walk, nothing unusual. We go out this one road in a farmland area. Walk it 3-4 times weekly for years. Had Harley along. The one house has two little dogs that are always outside. They wear collars for underground fence. They always come running out barking. Harley always just walks by no problem. One is a little yorkie and the other is a poodle mix. Well today was a totally different story. Dogs come out barking and harley broke free from me. He charged to the yorkie, grabbed it and shook, and shook that poor dog like a ragdoll. It was yelping and he kept shaking it. I am running to him, saying no, to drop it yelling his name. I got him off and had my daughter take him home. Looked at the yorkie and almost fell over. He had ripped the stomach all apart and everything was hanging out. I scooped him up, got towels from the neighbor and just held him. The owners were away for weekend and on way home. So I sat there bawling holding this poor little guy while he was dying in my arms. I am so heartbroken, confused, angry and nauseaous. What happened? What did I do wrong? The owners were very calm and I kept telling them how sorry I was. Gave them my name and number so they can decide what they are going to do. They even know me from walking by all the time. Harley has never done this before. We have had issues with him nipping at kids, which I worked on and he is doing better at that. This is totally a horrible shock. I feel so horrible. Do I need to start thinking about a new home? That is if they don't report it to AC, which if it were me, I would. I love my boy more than anything but I can't have this behavior. What do I do??


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## Elaine

If you can't control him and hang on to his leash when provoked like this, then, yes, you need to rehome him. I don't understand why you weren't prepared for these dogs and hanging on tight to your dog when you knew these dogs run out at you frequently.

I'm sure this was a terrible experience for you and even worse for the owners of the dead dog. At least you were responsible enough to notify the owners and gave them your name and number. I have no idea what's going to happen, but you have got to be able to walk your dog safely under all conditions.


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## JakodaCD OA

I'm so sorry everyone has to go thru this

I would call the owners and offer to pay whatever medical expenses are incurred. If he passed, I would also offer to pay for a new dog, tho that won't replace the one they've lost if he did pass But atleast you are offering and trying to right what's happened.

I hope someone rushed this little yorkie to the vet? Or did he pass while you were there?


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## chelle

I feel rehoming simply passes along the problem to someone else -- someone perhaps less qualified or willing to deal with the issue than you are.

So on that note, I feel it is a very poor option.

No clue why you've walked this road so many times and then this happened.

Now you know offlead for this dog is absolutely not an option.

I'm sorry, what a terrible thing to go thru.


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## PatchonGSD

> I would call the owners and offer to pay whatever medical expenses are incurred. If he passed, I would also offer to pay for a new dog, tho that won't replace the one they've lost if he did pass But at least you are offering and trying to right what's happened.


This is what I would do. I'm so sorry for everyone involved.


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## myshepharley

Elaine said:


> If you can't control him and hang on to his leash when provoked like this, then, yes, you need to rehome him. I don't understand why you weren't prepared for these dogs and hanging on tight to your dog when you knew these dogs run out at you frequently.
> 
> I'm sure this was a terrible experience for you and even worse for the owners of the dead dog. At least you were responsible enough to notify the owners and gave them your name and number. I have no idea what's going to happen, but you have got to be able to walk your dog safely under all conditions.


I was prepared. I always tighten up and cross the street first. I never said I was not holding tightly.


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## myshepharley

JakodaCD OA said:


> I'm so sorry everyone has to go thru this
> 
> I would call the owners and offer to pay whatever medical expenses are incurred. If he passed, I would also offer to pay for a new dog, tho that won't replace the one they've lost if he did pass But atleast you are offering and trying to right what's happened.
> 
> I hope someone rushed this little yorkie to the vet? Or did he pass while you were there?


I offered them whatever they would want to do. He passed in my arms. They used him for breeding so they might want another one.


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## JakodaCD OA

so sad I would give them a call tomorrow apologize again, and offer whatever..


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## onyx'girl

Wow, I bet Harley just couldn't take their taunting him any longer(no excuse for what he did, however).
Because the yorkie was used for breeding, they probably will place a high dollar amount on his replacement costs. 
A nightmare that can happen anytime with reactive dogs(this scenario is constantly in my mind). I seldom, if ever walk my two females in my neighborhood because of this. Not that they'd break free, but any dog running up on us would cause big-time problems. 
I agree, with NOT re-homing, don't pass on a problem. Just use extreme management with him from now on. 
So sorry this happened, rest in peace little yorkie.


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## myshepharley

JakodaCD OA said:


> so sad I would give them a call tomorrow apologize again, and offer whatever..


I already figured I would go to their house and offer my apologies again.


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## GatorDog

I don't have any advice for you other than everything you've already heard. I don't typically carry much sympathy for incidents like this. No matter how obnoxious another dog is, there is no excuse for it being mutilated and killed by someone else's pet. I am terribly sorry for all who were involved. This story made me feel nauseated. 

I'd go to their house with a blank check and prepare to cough up whatever they ask for. And if you plan on keeping this dog I would keep him confined to your own property until you can get some serious behavioral training done.


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## JakodaCD OA

I know you feel horrible and I know you'll do the right thing. 

It's one reason I HATE INVISIBLE FENCE!


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## Gretchen

An unknown future right now is very scary for you. What should you do? Wait until you have calmed down a bit, decisions made under stress often are not the best.

I agree with JaKodaCD and give them a call tomorrow, ask them what you can do to help them out. 

Since you said he has nipped at kids (althought not sure where) is a muzzle in order when you go for walks?


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## myshepharley

I am just very scared. My neighbor has two small dogs and the one always comes to the fence if our saint is out. They play thru the fence. If harley is out, he always runs over barking. I correct him and he comes right to me. Its hard not to have them out at same time. We both have kids that don't know how to keep them in if told. I don't want another accident happening. I feel like we can't do anything anymore that we have done for all these years. Walking, going to park, pet stores, etc. I don't know how to feel. Just very upset.


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## Jax08

Is he muzzle trained? If not, I would get on that ASAP. And review PA's dangerous dog laws.


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## 0pusX

I don't know if I would just walk over there and give them a check. I would contact an attorney and see what you need to do to cover yourself.

What I mean is, I would hate for you to go write them a check and then down the road they sue you in civil court and since there was no agreement with the check you wrote, you end up paying them twice. 


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## myshepharley

Jax08 said:


> Is he muzzle trained? If not, I would get on that ASAP. And review PA's dangerous dog laws.


I have started looking into this. It gets very very complicated, costly and scary. Thanks for the advice.


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## Gretchen

If you decide to keep your dog, I would find a training professional that you like, to help you with your dog's behavior, help build your confidence as a handler, and both of you must get your kids to understand there may be strict rules for your dog and they should respect them too for everyone's sake.


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## carmspack

just a terrible thing to experience -- very sorry for all concerned.

Let this be the cautionary tale for all those that rely on an electric fence , whether you want to call it that (which it is) or an i-fence . 
You MAY keep your animal in --- but as I said on another very recent thread it does not keep other animals OUT.

This would not have happened if those smaller dogs were safely kept in a large secure , shaded, sheltered , enclosed kennel .

It is the responsibility of all people owning dogs to participate in their safe keeping.


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## wyominggrandma

I am curious about something. The family was gone and the dogs were only contained by an electric fence? In the front yard? Or was somebody home at the time of the incedent?
Not that will make a difference because your dog was not under control and killed the little dog, but I guess I question why anyone would leave their dogs, even with an electric fence and collars on the dogs, alone and basically loose in the front yard?
What if a stray dog had come into the yard, crossing over the electric fence and killed the dog or dogs? 
It just struck me as odd that anyone would leave their dogs unattended in the front of the house even with collars on. That would not stop a stray from doing exactly what your dog did, you fessed up and are facing the uncertain future, they left their "expensive" breeding dogs pretty much uncontrolled in an unfenced yard.(unless I misunderstood what I read)
Whatever the circumstances, I am sorry this happened to you and your dog, you might be facing a long battle.


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## myshepharley

carmspack said:


> just a terrible thing to experience -- very sorry for all concerned.
> 
> Let this be the cautionary tale for all those that rely on an electric fence , whether you want to call it that (which it is) or an i-fence .
> You MAY keep your animal in --- but as I said on another very recent thread it does not keep other animals OUT.
> 
> This would not have happened if those smaller dogs were safely kept in a large secure , shaded, sheltered , enclosed kennel .
> 
> It is the responsibility of all people owning dogs to participate in their safe keeping.


Apparently the owners were away all weekend and kept garage door open alittle for them to get in and out as needed. I know they are always outside. They live outdoors, I believe, which makes me feel worse because the poor little guy probably didn't even know what is was like to be lo ed.


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## Sunflowers

So now they are breeding dogs.
Riiiiightttt....


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## myshepharley

Sunflowers said:


> So now they are breeding dogs.
> Riiiiightttt....


????????


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## Sunflowers

I am thinking they are saying they use the dogs for breeding to push up their value.
Yes, it was horrible, and yes, your dog got away from you, but leaving dogs alone for the weekend with the garage door cracked open and full access to the front yard is just inexcusable.
In my eyes they are just as responsible for this as you are.


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## myshepharley

Sunflowers said:


> I am thinking they are saying they use the dogs for breeding to push up their value.
> Yes, it was horrible, and yes, your dog got away from you, but leaving dogs alone for the weekend with the garage door cracked open and full access to the front yard is just inexcusable.
> In my eyes they are just as responsible for this as you are.


The reason I said that to begin with is because they use the two to make yorkie-poos. They have a camper thing out back with a bunch of puppies in. But yes those dogs are always out whether they are home or not. I have been walking that way with harley for five years. My feeling is that harley was wrong for charging in their yard. I had to fight to get the collar off the yorkie because it was so tight and it kept beeping. Didn't want the noise to add to his stress and pain.


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## lorihd

you poor dear, such a horrible event  sounds like harley is a liability, and i would still walk him about, but always with a muzzle  better safe than sorry


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## Sunflowers

myshepharley said:


> The reason I said that to begin with is because they use the two to make yorkie-poos. They have a camper thing out back with a bunch of puppies in. But yes those dogs are always out whether they are home or not. I have been walking that way with harley for five years. My feeling is that harley was wrong for charging in their yard. I had to fight to get the collar off the yorkie because it was so tight and it kept beeping. Didn't want the noise to add to his stress and pain.


I do want to say that I am very sorry you are going through this.


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## myshepharley

I just keep replaying the whole thing in my head. It hurts to see my ba y boy be so cruel. I keep crying every time I look at him. I also keep thinking that I will be made to put him down. I should of told the kids, no walk tonite.


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## CeCe

It sounds like he could have been in prey drive. I'm sorry you had to go through this but those people shouldn't have had their dogs contained in an electric fence unsupervised. Horrible accident.


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## carmspack

that is why I brought it up -- those people are negligent in the care of their animals - they were not safe, they may not have had necessities . Anyone could have stolen, poisoned them as well.


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## myshepharley

carmspack said:


> that is why I brought it up -- those people are negligent in the care of their animals - they were not safe, they may not have had necessities . Anyone could have stolen, poisoned them as well.


There was a puppy running around one day with them and no one was there. I could of easily took it if I wanted to. Still doesn't help what happened though.


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## myshepharley

If I would be a cold heartless person, I could of left the dog lay there to die and quick went home. Nobody would of known. But I sat on their porch holding him close until they got home.


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## Blanketback

What a horrible thing to happen. I know how bad you feel - I had a Border Collie who went after and killed a cat in my back yard, right in front of me. I was so upset, and confused because I had house cats that she was always fine with. The attack came totally out of the blue. I hope your neighbors can forgive Harley, and admit that they were also in the wrong. Those 'fences' fail at times, so I don't know what they were thinking by leaving the dogs like that.


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## Narny

Are your neighbors Amish?


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## myshepharley

Narny said:


> Are your neighbors Amish?


Not completely. I would say "plain people". Ones with coverings but live the way we do.


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## SewSleepy

I'm sorry you're going through this. 

I agree with the commenter who suggested talking to an attorney before paying anything. The owners don't have to know you have consulted one, but if there is any money that has to be paid I'd want a written agreement that limits their ability to sue or to report your dog as a dangerous dog, and possibly to admit partial liability on their part by having their dogs in the front yard with no physical barrier (in case the incident is reported by someone else). 

I know you're emotional over this right now, but it is important to protect yourself and your dog now. 


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## Narny

myshepharley said:


> Not completely. I would say "plain people". Ones with coverings but live the way we do.


There are different kinds of ordnungs that practice differently however I pray for your sake that they forgive and move on. That is pretty much the traditional and typical belief of the Amish. In that way, they will believe that it was of God and his will, nothing more.


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## NancyJ

I can't even imagine what you are going through. I hope things work out. I agree that they should never have left dogs unattended with the efence and that size dog could easily fall prey to birds of prey as well as coyotes etc.........But I also know you are still responsible since your dog went on their property and attacked the dog. It is very clear you want to do the right thing and are torn up about all this.


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## Lucy Dog

myshepharley said:


> I just keep replaying the whole thing in my head. It hurts to see my ba y boy be so cruel. I keep crying every time I look at him. I also keep thinking that I will be made to put him down. I should of told the kids, no walk tonite.


I'm sure it was a very traumatizing thing to go through watching that happen, but try not to think of it as "cruel". Dogs aren't humans, they don't think that way. They don't kill out of spite or hate like humans do, they do stuff like this because their natural instincts are telling them to. 

Does Harley chase squirrels and chipmunks? That's prey drive. He probably saw this little dog as prey and acted on what comes natural to him. The whole shake until dead is a very common thing that dogs do to kill their prey. Does he do that to squeekies and stuffed animals too? Very common.

Now I'm not trying to say this gives you or Harley a pass because it doesn't, but I'm not going to make you feel bad either. If a dogs going to be off leash, you need 100% control of him at all times. You're doing the right thing and acting very responsibly. This should be a very loud wake up call for you about how to handle your dogs, but is no reason to put down or rehome the dog. You just need to learn how to control him better and not give him the opportunity to ever do this again.


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## Jag

I agree...what can you really do about prey drive other than try to not let your dog get away from you and maybe up the training for better recall in emergencies? If you have homeowner's insurance, they would pay in a lawsuit (provided maybe they know you have the dog). Talking to an attorney is the best thing you can do. Some people would claim the dog was worth well over what it actually is. Just because it was used for breeding doesn't mean it's actually worth more. It's too bad this happened, but the owners of those dogs bear some of the responsibility. I've never liked invisible fences for many reasons...this is one of them. Anything could have gotten that dog left out like that.


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## Meeah'sMom

First of all, this was a very sad and traumatizing ordeal that you went through. I do not feel that you should be blamed because you didn't prepare for a freak accident to happen that day. I do agree with the muzzling and more training, though. I'm sure that you're feeling horrible enough about what happened. I wouldn't rehome Harley...with the necessary precautions, this will never happen again. I'm so sorry that you have to go through all this....it's really heartbreaking.


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## codmaster

myshepharley said:


> Took kids for a walk, nothing unusual. We go out this one road in a farmland area. Walk it 3-4 times weekly for years. Had Harley along. The one house has two little dogs that are always outside. They wear collars for underground fence. They always come running out barking. Harley always just walks by no problem. One is a little yorkie and the other is a poodle mix. Well today was a totally different story. Dogs come out barking and harley broke free from me. He charged to the yorkie, grabbed it and shook, and shook that poor dog like a ragdoll. It was yelping and he kept shaking it. I am running to him, saying no, to drop it yelling his name. I got him off and had my daughter take him home. Looked at the yorkie and almost fell over. He had ripped the stomach all apart and everything was hanging out. I scooped him up, got towels from the neighbor and just held him. The owners were away for weekend and on way home. So I sat there bawling holding this poor little guy while he was dying in my arms. I am so heartbroken, confused, angry and nauseaous. What happened? What did I do wrong? The owners were very calm and I kept telling them how sorry I was. Gave them my name and number so they can decide what they are going to do. They even know me from walking by all the time. Harley has never done this before. We have had issues with him nipping at kids, which I worked on and he is doing better at that. This is totally a horrible shock. I feel so horrible. Do I need to start thinking about a new home? That is if they don't report it to AC, which if it were me, I would. I love my boy more than anything but I can't have this behavior. What do I do??


 
One thing to consider - where did the grabbing take place? Did your dog go onto their property or did their dog rush out onto a public street or sidewalk? Did their dog come running at you or did your dog go running after their dog?

Might make a BIG difference in your dogs life!

I don't have any clue of course but we have had little dogs come running at us (male 5yo GSD) and start barking and circling us when we are on a walk.


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## codmaster

myshepharley said:


> I was prepared. I always tighten up and cross the street first. *I never said I was not holding tightly*.


 
Then how did your dog grab the other dog?


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## codmaster

myshepharley said:


> Apparently the owners were away all weekend and kept garage door open alittle for them to get in and out as needed. I know they are always outside. They live outdoors, I believe, which makes me feel worse because the poor little guy probably didn't even know what is was like to be lo ed.


 
So they were off lead running free - HMMM! What about leash laws?


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## codmaster

myshepharley said:


> There was a puppy running around one day with them and no one was there. I could of easily took it if I wanted to. Still doesn't help what happened though.


 
Get thee to a lawyer, ASAP!


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## myshepharley

codmaster said:


> One thing to consider - where did the grabbing take place? Did your dog go onto their property or did their dog rush out onto a public street or sidewalk? Did their dog come running at you or did your dog go running after their dog?
> 
> Might make a BIG difference in your dogs life!
> 
> I don't have any clue of course but we have had little dogs come running at us (male 5yo GSD) and start barking and circling us when we are on a walk.


They always come running out as far as they can get to. Harley ran part way thru their yard after they ran out.


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## myshepharley

codmaster said:


> So they were off lead running free - HMMM! What about leash laws?


Yes those dogs aee always off leash. In their yard, but off leash. When they don't have the collars on, they come out to the road.


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## JakodaCD OA

I agree with Carmen ^^ if someone did that here, they'd be arrested for neglect. 

You can't just leave your dogs loose outside and go off for the weekend I'm surprised no one had stolen them or otherwise before this


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## blackshep

carmspack said:


> that is why I brought it up -- those people are negligent in the care of their animals - they were not safe, they may not have had necessities . Anyone could have stolen, poisoned them as well.


Not to mention, if they are intact (used for breeding?) they should never be off leash or outside a securely fenced enclosure IMO, let alone when the owners are away!

I'm so, so sorry that this happened, how traumatizing! I agree about the muzzle for the future.


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## myshepharley

I stopped in this morning. Apparently the yorkie didn't die, when we thought. She said he was still breathing faintly. After an hour they took him to vet where he bit their two children. They PTS. So they are rabie testing him and she asked me to pay the bill. Said they don't blame Harley. They know how the yorkie was with running out barking and since they weren't home, he was probably more mouthy. Stated that a year ago they had one that got caught under garage door and suffocated??? That made me feel alittle weird.


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## Jax08

wait...they didn't take that poor dog in to have him PTS immediately??? and had to have him rabies tested when he bit their children? I"m not sure I would be paying for the rabies testing. Why was he not UTD? I would pay for the euthanization.


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## JakodaCD OA

omg I can't believe they waited an HOUR to take the poor thing to the vet? and another suffocated?? another OMG.


Sounds like this yorkie may not have been up todate on his rabies if they are testing for that???


Also sounds like they are ok with what happened, and hopefully paying the vet bill will be the end of it.. 



I hope Harley is up to date on his rabies (I'm sure he is),,you might want to find out from their vet if the yorkie was up to date on rabies and what that outcome is

and I rather agree with Michelle, I would not pay for rabies testing on the yorkie, that's their call .


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## Sunflowers

myshepharley said:


> Stated that a year ago they had one that got caught under garage door and suffocated??? .


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## onyx'girl

I hope these owners don't get anymore dogs. They clearly neglected the ones they had and that yorkie had to pay for it. They may be fined if the dog wasn't UTD on vaxing....wonder if AC will pay them a call to make sure the other dogs are legal. And if they are breeding, are they reporting the income? They may just want this to quietly be settled.


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## Sunflowers

Jane, you know they will get more dogs.

Every indication is that they see them as expendable and replaceable.


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## myshepharley

onyx'girl said:


> I hope these owners don't get anymore dogs. They clearly neglected the ones they had and that yorkie had to pay for it. They may be fined if the dog wasn't UTD on vaxing....wonder if AC will pay them a call to make sure the other dogs are legal. And if they are breeding, are they reporting the income? They may just want this to quietly be settled.


Will the vet have to be the one to report the bite and rabie testing to AC? Im not familiar with all those laws.


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## Jax08

Have you read this page?
Pennsylvania Dog Laws

The vet should be the one to report the bites. And definitely get a copy of the rabies report.


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## Sunflowers

The key words here are "without provocation."

I would say charging and barking qualify as provocation.


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## jae

That's terrible and I'm upset that you had to witness your companion do such a thing. But you're being much to hard on yourself, I do think the majority of the blame goes on the owner of the Yorkie, who by the sound of it are not very good dog owners anyway... If it was not your dog, it could have been a coyote, fox, rabid raccoon, or something even worse in other areas of the world. I have always had the impression that electric fences are not safe and should be used just like everything else with your dog - under supervision, especially in the front of a house. No care on the part of the Yorkie owner, if they had done their part this would never have happened. Personally, I have a fenced dog run in my backyard, which itself is fenced-in and would never do anything less, and still feel iffy about leaving it open to the house during the day.


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## Jax08

Sunflowers said:


> The key words here are "without provocation."
> 
> I would say charging and barking qualify as provocation.


That's what I saw too. She needs to read that and review with a lawyer. I certainly would not pay for rabies testing. But then maybe if the whole bill gets paid they will just go away and the OP is off free. HOwever, since the dog was taken into a vet, it might all be out of their hands. The vet may have to report the original fight since the yorkie died.

btw....LAWYER CONSULTS ARE USUALLY FREE!!!!


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## Liesje

Hm if they are rabies testing the Yorkie you can probably expect a visit from AC to make sure you and your dog are OK.

I might offer to pay for the PTS fee but not the rabies stuff, that implies some negligence on their part. Usually if a dog is vaccinated and licensed they don't have to test, they just observe the other animals/people that came into contact. I was accidentally "bitten" by one of my own dogs recently (separated a dog/dog scuffle and he accidentally got my hand). Because all my dogs are UTD on rabies vax, the AC officer just came over to my house twice, 10 days apart, to verify that me and all my dogs were alive. There was no punishment or testing.


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## Gretchen

carmspack said:


> that is why I brought it up -- those people are negligent in the care of their animals - they were not safe, they may not have had necessities . Anyone could have stolen, poisoned them as well.


I woke up this morning thinking exactly what carmspack wrote. 

Not an excuse for your dog, but there is really liability on both sides. I also was not familiar with the invisible fence/electric fence. Now I see this is really a poor choice for dogs.

I live in a more urban, densely housed area. Seldom are dogs left outside when the owner is not home. I would never do that, not for fear of escaping but the barking factor. When we are out on our walks and there is a dog barking at us as we pass by, in most cases the owner is on it to stop the barking.

I hope you are feeling a bit better today.

When our previous dog, Mandy bit a Dalmation (2 punctures on it's rear) I was sick to my stomach for over a week. Our Mandy was a GSD mix, we were at the beach. Her favorite activity was retrieving a stick out of the ocean - and was always completely focused on that. When she was 6, a Dalmation charged at us unexpectedly, out of the blue. It's owners seemed to be 1/4 mile down the beach. The dog scared the poop out of us, it happened so fast, but my dog bit the other dog's hind end, then stopped. I felt so terrible, I offered my name and number to the Dalmation owners but they declined and said this has happened before. Even though they admitted guilt, still felt so sick and avoided the beach for a couple months. This was the only time our dog ever bit anything.

Even though this was not nearly as awful as your situation, to me both of us were at fault to begin with for having our dogs off leash.


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## myshepharley

Gretchen said:


> I woke up this morning thinking exactly what carmspack wrote.
> 
> Not an excuse for your dog, but there is really liability on both sides. I also was not familiar with the invisible fence/electric fence. Now I see this is really a poor choice for dogs.
> 
> I live in a more urban, densely housed area. Seldom are dogs left outside when the owner is not home. I would never do that, not for fear of escaping but the barking factor. When we are out on our walks and there is a dog barking at us as we pass by, in most cases the owner is on it to stop the barking.
> 
> I hope you are feeling a bit better today.
> 
> When our previous dog, Mandy bit a Dalmation (2 punctures on it's rear) I was sick to my stomach for over a week. Our Mandy was a GSD mix, we were at the beach. Her favorite activity was retrieving a stick out of the ocean - and was always completely focused on that. When she was 6, a Dalmation charged at us unexpectedly, out of the blue. It's owners seemed to be 1/4 mile down the beach. The dog scared the poop out of us, it happened so fast, but my dog bit the other dog's hind end, then stopped. I felt so terrible, I offered my name and number to the Dalmation owners but they declined and said this has happened before. Even though they admitted guilt, still felt so sick and avoided the beach for a couple months. This was the only time our dog ever bit anything.
> 
> Even though this was not nearly as awful as your situation, to me both of us were at fault to begin with for having our dogs off leash.


I am feeling somewhat better. Still very upset. Shock I think. I feel Harley is gonna be known as "the dangerous dog" in the neighborhood, he really is a good dog. Even though was happened is very unexusable.(sp?) Sorry.


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## Blanketback

Look at all the posts in all the threads where the dogs have gone after squirrels and rabbits... Aside from the fact that those are wildlife and Harley went after someone's pet, I don't see any difference. Prey drive is what it is, it isn't malicious intent. Please don't be so hard on either one of you. Hugs.


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## blackshep

I can't believe they let that poor dog suffer for an hour, that is animal cruelty in my eyes.

I would pay for the euth, but not rabies testing. Their dog should be UTD on it's vaccines, which is not your responsibility. I also agree that charging & barking is 'provocation' and that the owners are utterly negligent.

I'm so sorry you're going through this, you must feel sick over it.

((hugs))


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## Elaine

I am shocked at how this has turned around to blame the owners of the dead dog! It doesn't matter whether these dogs are outside all the time or that the owners left for the weekend or anything else they may have done with their dogs in the past. It also doesn't matter whether you think invisible fences are safe or not. What does matter is whether or not the attack happened on their property or out on the street. 

If this happened on their property, it is 100% your fault. If it happened off their property and your dog had gotten away from you, it is both your faulty. If this happened off their property and you had held on to your dogs, you wouldn't be at fault.

As for the bites at the vet, you are still partly liable for that because the dog wouldn't have been there in the first place without the attack. The vet and the owner are also liable for that one. 

You should definitely pay for the euthansia, but there is no charge for rabies testing. With the rabies testing, the health department is now involved so animal control won't be far behind. You might have to pay part of any medical costs involved to the children for their bites, but not all of it.

You should be hard on yourself. Your dog is now probably going to be declared dangerous because you said you held on tight to him yet were unable to hold the leash. This is no ones fault but yours.


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## myshepharley

Blanketback said:


> Look at all the posts in all the threads where the dogs have gone after squirrels and rabbits... Aside from the fact that those are wildlife and Harley went after someone's pet, I don't see any difference. Prey drive is what it is, it isn't malicious intent. Please don't be so hard on either one of you. Hugs.


I am trying so hard to understand that. I just keep seeing it as, my dog killed another dog. I don't want to feel that way because I don't want to betray him or our super tight bond. How do I get past this whole ordeal??


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## myshepharley

Elaine said:


> I am shocked at how this has turned around to blame the owners of the dead dog! It doesn't matter whether these dogs are outside all the time or that the owners left for the weekend or anything else they may have done with their dogs in the past. It also doesn't matter whether you think invisible fences are safe or not. What does matter is whether or not the attack happened on their property or out on the street.
> 
> If this happened on their property, it is 100% your fault. If it happened off their property and your dog had gotten away from you, it is both your faulty. If this happened off their property and you had held on to your dogs, you wouldn't be at fault.
> 
> As for the bites at the vet, you are still partly liable for that because the dog wouldn't have been there in the first place without the attack. The vet and the owner are also liable for that one.
> 
> You should definitely pay for the euthansia, but there is no charge for rabies testing. With the rabies testing, the health department is now involved so animal control won't be far behind. You might have to pay part of any medical costs involved to the children for their bites, but not all of it.
> 
> You should be hard on yourself. Your dog is now probably going to be declared dangerous because you said you held on tight to him yet were unable to hold the leash. This is no ones fault but yours.


Thank you so much for that. Just what I needed to hear. I am not blaming anyone but myself. I do feel horrible. These people are giving their opinion on the situation which does not change how I FEEL. I don't feel I should pay for any rabies test because I wouldn't of had my children in there with me. That was no place for them considering they are all under 7 years of age. That was irresponsible IMO. I take full responsibility for the dog attack. He had been charging and barking at harley for five years. Yesterday was a horrible freak accident that I have to live with.


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## Blanketback

Harley's been walking past that house hundreds of times without incident. How the heck were you to know that would happen? Don't let other people make you feel worse. There's a new dog park thread where the exact same thing just happened. These things *do* happen. 

I heard screaming coming from the swampy area, and I thought I could save an animal from some horrible situation. When I found out where the noise was coming from, it was a frog lodged halfway down a snake's mouth. I felt bad, but what am I going to do? This is survival for the snake, it has to eat too. I keep pet rats, but some of them would have also met this fate. Mother Nature seems cruel, but it's not up to us to try to make sense of things.


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## SewSleepy

It's all well and good to blame the owner, and of course there is some blame there, but havent we all been in a situation that we just never expected, or things just didn't go the way we had trained for? Our dogs have minds of their own and a natural instinct that drives them. We can train, train, train but in the end if that natural instinct kicks in we can be caught off guard.

Our trainer told us a story of a Doberman he had. He won obedience titles with the dog, and the stories he tells-it's hard to believe the dog was a dog because they were so in tune with each other. One day he had the dog of leash watching it chase a rabbit. There was a road nearby and our trainer started to call the dog back, but the dog only saw the rabbit. Long story short, the Doberman that was so tight with his handler and won OB comps got run over by a car. He thought the dogs recall was bomb proof, but clearly it wasn't rabbit proof. This is someone who, at that point, had been training as competing for years (10 or so I believe). 



Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## codmaster

Liesje said:


> Hm if they are rabies testing the Yorkie you can probably expect a visit from AC to make sure you and your dog are OK.
> 
> I might offer to pay for the PTS fee but not the rabies stuff, that implies some negligence on their part. Usually if a dog is vaccinated and licensed they don't have to test, they just observe the other animals/people that came into contact. I was accidentally "bitten" by one of my own dogs recently (separated a dog/dog scuffle and he accidentally got my hand). Because all my dogs are UTD on rabies vax, the AC officer just came over to my house twice, 10 days apart, to verify that me and all my dogs were alive. There was no punishment or testing.


Why did you get visited by an AC? Did you need to go see a DR. who had to report it?


For the OP, I would certainly express a great deal of sympathy to the other owner, BUT it sounds like the fault was shared - if their dog was leashed or controlled then the OP's dog would never had gotten close to it!

Sounds like a simple dog fight - we shouldn't automatically assign totasl blame to the winner!


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## Liesje

codmaster said:


> Why did you get visited by an AC? Did you need to go see a DR. who had to report it?


Yes any Dr will automatically report it to the county health department. I saw a Dr. because I figured I might need antibiotics as a precaution and since I'm not in the habit of lying to the Dr, she reported it as is her responsibility. I don't know if the same is true of a vet, but wouldn't be surprised if they did too, at least around here where we actually have rabies in some animals. I didn't have to do anything, the ACO came over and said he already had the records for my dogs (all vaccinated and licensed with the county) he just needed to actually see me to make sure I was not dying of rabies. I offered to invite him in to meet my dogs or get the dogs out but he just looked at them in the window and that was it. The AC is not going to get involved with determining liability or anything like that but if there's even a remote chance rabies is involved, at least around here they will check and all it involves is looking at you since it's pretty obvious when someone has rabies 10 days out, you'd either be dead or look like those people in Quarantine.


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## Shade

It's a horrible situation but I believe the blame is 50/50 between both owners

I personally would get a lawyer right away and follow their advice. If it means paying the cost to euthanize the yorkie and/or a replacement dog then so be it. But I wouldn't pay a penny without legal council to make sure everything is recorded officially


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## Runamuk

Elaine said:


> I am shocked at how this has turned around to blame the owners of the dead dog! It doesn't matter whether these dogs are outside all the time or that the owners left for the weekend or anything else they may have done with their dogs in the past. It also doesn't matter whether you think invisible fences are safe or not. What does matter is whether or not the attack happened on their property or out on the street.
> 
> If this happened on their property, it is 100% your fault. If it happened off their property and your dog had gotten away from you, it is both your faulty. If this happened off their property and you had held on to your dogs, you wouldn't be at fault.
> 
> As for the bites at the vet, you are still partly liable for that because the dog wouldn't have been there in the first place without the attack. The vet and the owner are also liable for that one.
> 
> You should definitely pay for the euthansia, but there is no charge for rabies testing. With the rabies testing, the health department is now involved so animal control won't be far behind. You might have to pay part of any medical costs involved to the children for their bites, but not all of it.
> 
> You should be hard on yourself. Your dog is now probably going to be declared dangerous because you said you held on tight to him yet were unable to hold the leash. This is no ones fault but yours.


^^^^^This^^^^^^


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## NancyJ

Yes I have to agree on Elaine's post and myshepharley's response.

Where I would not beat myself up is looking inside that if you walked past this house for years and did not see this coming and it was a random - finally something about the yorkie triggered the dog - then you have to take your responsibility (it still rests partially on you - too bad the yorkie was not in the street) and act accordingly. But dogs are still animals and there is always *some* degree of unpredicability. Accidents DO happen through a combinaiton of "dog reacted" "I lost control" and you did the most responsible thing at the time (more than the poor dog's owners did).

If there were warning signs (was/is the nipping at kids a prey thing or a human thing-human agression is not the same as animal agression or even prey) I would look at yourself - what were you doing to fix it and be glad this was not a small running squealing child. The prey chasing and biting CAN be controlled but I honestly would be working with a professional on that to make sure...and maybe even get an honest assessment given the circumstances.


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## myshepharley

jocoyn said:


> Yes I have to agree on Elaine's post and myshepharley's response.
> 
> Where I would not beat myself up is looking inside that if you walked past this house for years and did not see this coming and it was a random - finally something about the yorkie triggered the dog - then you have to take your responsibility (it still rests partially on you - too bad the yorkie was not in the street) and act accordingly. But dogs are still animals and there is always *some* degree of unpredicability. Accidents DO happen through a combinaiton of "dog reacted" "I lost control" and you did the most responsible thing at the time (more than the poor dog's owners did).
> 
> If there were warning signs (was/is the nipping at kids a prey thing or a human thing-human agression is not the same as animal agression or even prey) I would look at yourself - what were you doing to fix it and be glad this was not a small running squealing child. The prey chasing and biting CAN be controlled but I honestly would be working with a professional on that to make sure...and maybe even get an honest assessment given the circumstances.


Thank you


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## Rerun

Elaine said:


> I am shocked at how this has turned around to blame the owners of the dead dog! It doesn't matter whether these dogs are outside all the time or that the owners left for the weekend or anything else they may have done with their dogs in the past. It also doesn't matter whether you think invisible fences are safe or not. What does matter is whether or not the attack happened on their property or out on the street.
> 
> If this happened on their property, it is 100% your fault. If it happened off their property and your dog had gotten away from you, it is both your faulty. If this happened off their property and you had held on to your dogs, you wouldn't be at fault.
> 
> As for the bites at the vet, you are still partly liable for that because the dog wouldn't have been there in the first place without the attack. The vet and the owner are also liable for that one.
> 
> You should definitely pay for the euthansia, but there is no charge for rabies testing. With the rabies testing, the health department is now involved so animal control won't be far behind. You might have to pay part of any medical costs involved to the children for their bites, but not all of it.
> 
> You should be hard on yourself. Your dog is now probably going to be declared dangerous because you said you held on tight to him yet were unable to hold the leash. This is no ones fault but yours.


Agreed.


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## JakodaCD OA

I think the OP feels bad enough but I DO think the yorkie owners are partially to blame, who the heck leaves their tiny dogs OUTSIDE, no supervision, and goes off for the weekend? 

Who waits an hour before taking their 'beloved' pet to the vet after such a horrific incident?

Who lets their kids under 7 years of age near a dog that is obviously in alot of pain (and we all know dogs can bite out of pain) and they get bit? 

If this yorkie was up to date on it's shots it wouldn't be needing a rabies test.

I am certainly not saying the yorkie owners are to blame, but I think there's some blame to be spread around.


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## Rerun

Legally, the OP's dog got away from her and entered the other persons property and essentially killed it. Unless there is a law there about leaving ones dogs alone, the dog WAS secured via it's e-fence, so they were legally in the clear. They could have left for an errand for a half hour, been away at work for the day, or gone for a week. It makes no difference in that the OP's dog was still the one that entered the deceased dogs yard and attacked it.

Do they sound like great owners - no. But in the eyes of the law, the owner of the deceased dog is not in the wrong, so no, I don't agree that blame should be shared.

OP stated they knew these dogs charged the e-fence, and crossed to the other side and tightened up the hold on the leash. If OP can't control the dog to keep it from going after something, then OP shouldn't be walking the dog in public. the dog and owner need to go to training classes with a trainer who knows how to teach you to control a big strong dog. I have never once, even as a child, had one of my GSD's get away from me. If OP needs a training tool such as a prong collar to properly correct the dog when it pulls, then they need to attend classes and learn how to control the dog with the training aid properly.


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## jae

JakodaCD OA said:


> I think the OP feels bad enough but I DO think the yorkie owners are partially to blame, who the heck leaves their tiny dogs OUTSIDE, no supervision, and goes off for the weekend?
> 
> Who waits an hour before taking their 'beloved' pet to the vet after such a horrific incident?
> 
> Who lets their kids under 7 years of age near a dog that is obviously in alot of pain (and we all know dogs can bite out of pain) and they get bit?
> 
> If this yorkie was up to date on it's shots it wouldn't be needing a rabies test.
> 
> I am certainly not saying the yorkie owners are to blame, but I think *there's some blame to be spread around*.


This, I agree with. What if they hadn't been tiny dogs? What if they bred GSD? Then what would the discussion look like? Who's responsibility would it be for a dead or injured GSD that was acting on its instinct, from both sides? I think the "blame" word is going around too much, no party should be "blamed" but they each do hold their own responsibility as part of society and dog owners. 

I believe everything that has needed to be said has been said, we have most, if not all, sides of the argument here, and everyone is entitled to what they think, if you judge that one party is to "blame" then so be it, same goes vice versa or split "blame".
Don't be shocked at other people's feelings on the subject. Not everyone thinks alike, that is what makes us human, after all. Not even written law is clearly defined throughout the world.


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## myshepharley

Rerun said:


> Legally, the OP's dog got away from her and entered the other persons property and essentially killed it. Unless there is a law there about leaving ones dogs alone, the dog WAS secured via it's e-fence, so they were legally in the clear. They could have left for an errand for a half hour, been away at work for the day, or gone for a week. It makes no difference in that the OP's dog was still the one that entered the deceased dogs yard and attacked it.
> 
> Do they sound like great owners - no. But in the eyes of the law, the owner of the deceased dog is not in the wrong, so no, I don't agree that blame should be shared.
> 
> OP stated they knew these dogs charged the e-fence, and crossed to the other side and tightened up the hold on the leash. If OP can't control the dog to keep it from going after something, then OP shouldn't be walking the dog in public. the dog and owner need to go to training classes with a trainer who knows how to teach you to control a big strong dog. I have never once, even as a child, had one of my GSD's get away from me. If OP needs a training tool such as a prong collar to properly correct the dog when it pulls, then they need to attend classes and learn how to control the dog with the training aid properly.


I don't need a training class on how to use a leash. I use a harness, and always am able to keep him under control. It was a freak accident and sometimes they happen. I don't know what went wrong yesterday. I had it tight but something happened. Sorry I am not a perfect dog owner like yourself. Wish we were all perfect but things happen. I can only learn from this tragedy and try to move on.


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## NancyJ

I think that is the point. Move forward. Learn from mistakes. Keep an eye on the rear view mirror. 

I would have an emergency stop/down and bombproof it. Consider the prong.

I will admit to having a scare or two over the years and have learned from some mistakes (none this bad but it could have been).


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## Gretchen

jocoyn said:


> I think that is the point. Move forward. Learn from mistakes. Keep an eye on the rear view mirror.
> 
> _*I would have an emergency stop/down and bombproof it. Consider the prong.*_
> 
> I will admit to having a scare or two over the years and have learned from some mistakes (none this bad but it could have been).


This.

Prong is very helpful. One private session with a trainer would be great.

We also did a "down/stay" only clinic with our trainer. Molly is not perfect with it, but when you think things might get out of control, sometimes you panic and forget what to do, well all I have to do is remember to say "down" it makes things a lot easier.


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## myshepharley

Not saying I couldn't use training. I tried a prong, not the metal, it was like a hard plastic. He still pulled. The harness works well for him. I have had him at parks, trails, tubing, my daughter's soccer practice and he always behaves. I have gotten compliments on his behavior. I just never have been in this situation with him where I couldn't keep his attention. I do neex to work on his recall and I'm sure other things. Moving forward I know to be 100% prepared to the best of my ability. Just was alittle edgy that someone tells me I shouldn't be out in public with my dog.


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## middleofnowhere

Train a reliable "out" or "leave it!" 

The late Barker Sisters & I were walking when a moppet came charging up barking, followed by the robed & slippered owner. BTY handled him like a squeeky toy. Fortunately she knew "leave it!" Once I uttered those words she released him, unharmed. The owner called her dog stupid and was not upset with me or my dogs. Hopefully she reevaluated going out with her dog off lead in her front yard with her in flip flops and robe. 

It did worry me that we would have an incident report filed although we were a house away and in the road and everyone was on lead except for me. 


Hopefully, the yorkie house will reevaluate handling their pups, too. Leads do break, training often lacks perfection and crap happens. I am sorry all around for this.


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## Mrs.K

myshepharley said:


> Took kids for a walk, nothing unusual. We go out this one road in a farmland area. Walk it 3-4 times weekly for years. Had Harley along. *The one house has two little dogs that are always outside. They wear collars for underground fence. They always come running out barking. Harley always just walks by no problem.* One is a little yorkie and the other is a poodle mix. *Well today was a totally different story. Dogs come out barking and harley broke free from me. He charged to the yorkie, grabbed it and shook, and shook that poor dog like a ragdoll.* It was yelping and he kept shaking it. I am running to him, saying no, to drop it yelling his name. I got him off and had my daughter take him home. Looked at the yorkie and almost fell over. He had ripped the stomach all apart and everything was hanging out. I scooped him up, got towels from the neighbor and just held him.* The owners were away for weekend and on way home.* So I sat there bawling holding this poor little guy while he was dying in my arms. I am so heartbroken, confused, angry and nauseaous. What happened? What did I do wrong? The owners were very calm and I kept telling them how sorry I was. Gave them my name and number so they can decide what they are going to do. They even know me from walking by all the time. Harley has never done this before. We have had issues with him nipping at kids, which I worked on and he is doing better at that. This is totally a horrible shock. I feel so horrible. Do I need to start thinking about a new home? That is if they don't report it to AC, which if it were me, I would. I love my boy more than anything but I can't have this behavior. What do I do??


So these dogs were taunting your dog for quite a while, the owners away for the weekend, and the dogs out by themselves, with just an underground electronic fence? And please don't tell me say that you are at fault. Because honestly, I don't blame you or your dog. 

Wow... just... wow... :help:


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## Mrs.K

myshepharley said:


> I stopped in this morning. Apparently the yorkie didn't die, when we thought. She said he was still breathing faintly. After an hour they took him to vet where he bit their two children. They PTS. So they are rabie testing him and she asked me to pay the bill. Said they don't blame Harley. They know how the yorkie was with running out barking and since they weren't home, he was probably more mouthy. Stated that a year ago they had one that got caught under garage door and suffocated??? That made me feel alittle weird.


...

Don't even know what to say about that...:help:


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## myshepharley

I just want to thank all of you for your advice, opinions and comments. It has helped me a great deal to handle this way differently then I would have. You guys are great


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## jang

you know..if this was your dead dog--lets just say kidded by a pit--how would this thread be going? The dog LOST IT AND KILLED A YARD YAPPER..All of a sudden this is ok?. The dog is dangerous..period....FIND A SOLUTION..jan


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## Mrs.K

jang said:


> you know..if this was your dead dog--lets just say kidded by a pit--how would this thread be going? The dog LOST IT AND KILLED A YARD YAPPER..All of a sudden this is ok?. The dog is dangerous..period....FIND A SOLUTION..jan


I have to disagree. If these were the same circumstances and the OP's dog was killed by another dog because she was gone for the weekend and left her dog outside in a yard with just an electric fence, all the while she knows that her dog charges at other dogs all the time, it would go the same way, IF not even worse than that. 

Shows that you don't know this forum very well. Trust me, just because you are a member and own a GSD doesn't mean you get a free pass on stupidity. 
(You in general, just to clarify)


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## jang

WHOA..WHO THE THE **** ARE YOU TO TELL ME I AM STUPID?..her dog killed another dog...You wanna live with that? No freaking way...My dog gets harassed every day but my neighbors Maltese yapping dogs...It is my job tho keep HER dogs safe...jan


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## JakodaCD OA

I think we all got the point and we all have our opinions..

This was a tragic accident I'm sure the OP has learned from and will do everything in her power to not repeat.

With that, let's stop the name calling ok?


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## GSDGunner

jang said:


> WHOA..WHO THE THE **** ARE YOU TO TELL ME I AM STUPID?..her dog killed another dog...You wanna live with that? No freaking way...My dog gets harassed every day but my neighbors Maltese yapping dogs...It is my job tho keep HER dogs safe...jan


Let's just hope you never have this happen to you. I think you're being way too harsh on the OP. She admitted it was an accident. And guess what, accidents happen to everyone. You could be in this same situation some day (and don't say it will never happen cause it COULD). 
No reason to blast the OP the way you did.


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## NancyJ

Trying to be helpful. We need to move ON!

I train an emergency down with my dogs because they are offlead cadaver dogs and loose dogs etc are just part of the package. If you train it enough you WILL automatically use it when you need it without thinking.

When I was at our seminar two weeks ago, we spent the whole day working on boats at the lake. After I put Beau up I saw this blur moving at high speed across the parking lot towards the lake. People were throwing balls in the water. He is a high drive working dog. I yelled "*DOWN*" and it was like his legs went out from under him and hit hit the deck. I did not have a leash, so I went up to him, heeled him back to my truck and he shared my banana for being such a good boy. When I got back to the truck I saw where a peice of debris had kept the crate from latching properly. Honest mistake. Could have been tragic.

I am NOT, by the way, God's gift to dog trainers....I just work really hard at it. Anybody can do this.

If just took a lot of consistency and training but *I think the emergency down is the single most important command you can teach a dog*. Practice practice practice - the command can be the first thing that goes into your head like "STOP" or whatever.


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## myshepharley

jang said:


> you know..if this was your dead dog--lets just say kidded by a pit--how would this thread be going? The dog LOST IT AND KILLED A YARD YAPPER..All of a sudden this is ok?. The dog is dangerous..period....FIND A SOLUTION..jan


Did you read the whole thread??? I said if it were me, I would report it to ac. Don't tell me my dog lost it. What he did was wrong and I AM THE ONE who has to live with it. Do I think he is dangerous? No I don't. This could of happened to any of us. He has some issues that I need to get worked on but not dangerous. I don't want people bashing each other because of different opinions that we all are entitled to.


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## AgileGSD

What a sad story 

While it does sound like these were certainly less than stellar owners I don't think legally fault would be found with them. Their dogs were secured in their yard by an IF, it isn't illegal to keep dogs outdoors or use IF (in most places anyway). The other dog was running loose, went into the yard with these dogs and killed one of them. I think just about anywhere, the loose dog's owner would be 100% legally responsible for the incident. It has nothing to do with personal opinions on what is or is not responsible ownership. Dogs running at large are generally going to be at fault for any incidents where one dog is loose and the other is secured. 

As to the whys, this article may help:

Dog play behavior and "predatory drift" | Gail Fisher, All Dogs Gym & Inn | Dog, Dogs,

I don't think your dog is necessarily dangerous because of this incident. I do think if you are going to continue walking him, you need to be 200% sure you can keep him under control no matter what. Maybe a Gentle Leader, properly conditioned would be a good option with a second leash attached to a secure collar or harness? And a can of Citronella animal deterrent spray to help ward off dogs approaching your's.


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## jang

Mrs.K said:


> I have to disagree. If these were the same circumstances and the OP's dog was killed by another dog because she was gone for the weekend and left her dog outside in a yard with just an electric fence, all the while she knows that her dog charges at other dogs all the time, it would go the same way, IF not even worse than that.
> 
> Shows that you don't know this forum very well. Trust me, just because you are a member and own a GSD doesn't mean you get a free pass on stupidity.
> (You in general, just to clarify)


Thank you very much Mrs K..I certainly needed to be put in my place, didn't I ..However, the fact remains a dog is dead and we on this board are overly protective of GSD's...The little dog, for whatever reason , did not deserve to die for being a yappy dog..True, I am sorry for the OP's feelings..but, come one...WHAT IF IT WAS OUR DOG? This board is full of biased contradictory ideals..come on...a dog is dead.. I really am sorry for what the OP is going through..Truly..but facts are facts..AND..I AM NOT STUPID BECAUSE i SEE THINGS DIFFERENTLY...


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## Sunflowers

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Isn't the harness meant for encouraging pulling, and not to be used when you need to control your dog?

Also, wouldn't tightening the leash as you go by a yapping dog send tense signals down the leash?


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## myshepharley

AgileGSD said:


> What a sad story
> 
> While it does sound like these were certainly less than stellar owners I don't think legally fault would be found with them. Their dogs were secured in their yard by an IF, it isn't illegal to keep dogs outdoors or use IF (in most places anyway). The other dog was running loose, went into the yard with these dogs and killed one of them. I think just about anywhere, the loose dog's owner would be 100% legally responsible for the incident. It has nothing to do with personal opinions on what is or is not responsible ownership. Dogs running at large are generally going to be at fault for any incidents where one dog is loose and the other is secured.
> 
> As to the whys, this article may help:
> 
> Dog play behavior and "predatory drift" | Gail Fisher, All Dogs Gym & Inn | Dog, Dogs,
> 
> I don't think your dog is necessarily dangerous because of this incident. I do think if you are going to continue walking him, you need to be 200% sure you can keep him under control no matter what. Maybe a Gentle Leader, properly conditioned would be a good option with a second leash attached to a secure collar or harness? And a can of Citronella animal deterrent spray to help ward off dogs approaching your's.


Not sure exactly what you mean but my dog was not running loose everywhere. He was on his harness and leash. Somehow my fault he got free and went in their yard.


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## jang

myshepharley said:


> Did you read the whole thread??? I said if it were me, I would report it to ac. Don't tell me my dog lost it. What he did was wrong and I AM THE ONE who has to live with it. Do I think he is dangerous? No I don't. This could of happened to any of us. He has some issues that I need to get worked on but not dangerous. I don't want people bashing each other because of different opinions that we all are entitled to.


I really am sorry for what you are going thru...I can no way imagine the pain you are suffering..Nor do I blame you..I simply am making an observation of the trends that this forum follows..


----------



## JakodaCD OA

jang I don't think anyone here said that little yorkie deserved to die and I don't think anyone "thinks" it either, despite the owners being not so stellar.

If this was a rabbit or a cat, the same thing probably would have happened. 

Accidents happen, and this one was tragic, but it was an accident, I don't think Harley is getting a free pass, nor the OP, it was an accident


----------



## jang

JakodaCD OA said:


> jang I don't think anyone here said that little yorkie deserved to die and I don't think anyone "thinks" it either, despite the owners being not so stellar.
> 
> If this was a rabbit or a cat, the same thing probably would have happened.
> 
> Accidents happen, and this one was tragic, but it was an accident, I don't think Harley is getting a free pass, nor the OP, it was an accident


i absolutely agree with you..I am sorry if I caused the OP more pain that what she is already going thru..


----------



## Mrs.K

jang said:


> Thank you very much Mrs K..I certainly needed to be put in my place, didn't I ..However, the fact remains a dog is dead and we on this board are overly protective of GSD's...The little dog, for whatever reason , did not deserve to die for being a yappy dog..True, I am sorry for the OP's feelings..but, come one...WHAT IF IT WAS OUR DOG? This board is full of biased contradictory ideals..come on...a dog is dead.. I really am sorry for what the OP is going through..Truly..but facts are facts..AND..I AM NOT STUPID BECAUSE i SEE THINGS DIFFERENTLY...


Nobody said you are stupid. 
I said that no one on this forum gets a free pass on stupidity and you is meant in the general you, which I added because I knew, you would probably take it the wrong way. 

Yes, the forum is protective of the GSD and there would be one heck of an outcry because the owner was stupid enough to leave the dog outside, in an "unfenced" electric fenced in yard that doesn't protect your dog from getting killed, stolen, etc. 

If you read this forum, the general forum user believes that a dog should NEVER be in a backyard unsupervised and if you keep your dog in the backyard and your dog is stolen, gets out, hit by a car, killed by another dog, than it's YOUR fault because YOU did not make sure your dog was safely crated in the house. 

Some on this forum even believe that you should crate your dog to keep him safe from the police and thugs.


----------



## jang

GSDGunner said:


> Let's just hope you never have this happen to you. I think you're being way too harsh on the OP. She admitted it was an accident. And guess what, accidents happen to everyone. You could be in this same situation some day (and don't say it will never happen cause it COULD).
> No reason to blast the OP the way you did.


I have made my amends..my opinions, however, are my own...God forbid this should ever happen to ANY OF US... not just me because of my posts


----------



## jang

Mrs.K said:


> Nobody said you are stupid.
> I said that no one on this forum gets a free pass on stupidity and you is meant in the general you, which I added because I knew, you would probably take it the wrong way.
> 
> Yes, the forum is protective of the GSD and there would be one heck of an outcry because the owner was stupid enough to leave the dog outside, in an "unfenced" electric fenced in yard that doesn't protect your dog from getting killed, stolen, etc.
> 
> If you read this forum, the general forum user believes that a dog should NEVER be in a backyard unsupervised and if you keep your dog in the backyard and your dog is stolen, gets out, hit by a car, killed by another dog, than it's YOUR fault because YOU did not make sure your dog was safely crated in the house.
> 
> Some on this forum even believe that you should crate your dog to keep him safe from the police and thugs.


Mrs K, I today, and have always respected your opinions..deepest regards...jan


----------



## Liesje

If he were my dog, I would use a prong and have the leash also attached to a slip collar for backup. I understand the dog is trained and well behaved on a harness but you (OP) also said you couldn't get his focus. A good correction on a prong will do that. No it's not real nice but it's better than the dog pulling free. The dog does not sound like a softie so a prong should not bother him if he really is trained to walk nice, but it will give you the control you need and the ability to make paying attention to you non-negotiable.


----------



## myshepharley

Liesje said:


> If he were my dog, I would use a prong and have the leash also attached to a slip collar for backup. I understand the dog is trained and well behaved on a harness but you (OP) also said you couldn't get his focus. A good correction on a prong will do that. No it's not real nice but it's better than the dog pulling free. The dog does not sound like a softie so a prong should not bother him if he really is trained to walk nice, but it will give you the control you need and the ability to make paying attention to you non-negotiable.


Thank you. I will def give that a try.


----------



## Sunflowers

GSDGunner said:


> guess what, accidents happen to everyone. You could be in this same situation some day (and don't say it will never happen cause it COULD).


I was discussing this with my husband last night. 

I said we own a very powerful breed that is used as a weapon by the police and military, and reading the OP's horrible incident, I felt as if it could have been me. 

There, but for the grace of God, go I. 

We like to think we can control our dogs, but what we own is a predator who is very smart, very powerful, and many of us have GSDs that have a very high prey drive. 

When that clicks on in a certain way, is there a way to stop it?

What would stop it? 
A prong? 

How would one train and what would one use to make sure this doesn't happen? Or are we playing Russian Roulette every time we are out in public with our GSDs?


----------



## Mrs.K

Liesje said:


> If he were my dog, I would use a prong and have the leash also attached to a slip collar for backup. I understand the dog is trained and well behaved on a harness but you (OP) also said you couldn't get his focus. A good correction on a prong will do that. No it's not real nice but it's better than the dog pulling free. The dog does not sound like a softie so a prong should not bother him if he really is trained to walk nice, but it will give you the control you need and the ability to make paying attention to you non-negotiable.


Agreed. And make sure the collar really fits and isn't too loose.


----------



## Sunflowers

myshepharley said:


> Thank you. I will def give that a try.


I love these. They look gorgeous and the prongs are hidden.

Secret Power


----------



## jang

Mrs.K said:


> I have to disagree. If these were the same circumstances and the OP's dog was killed by another dog because she was gone for the weekend and left her dog outside in a yard with just an electric fence, all the while she knows that her dog charges at other dogs all the time, it would go the same way, IF not even worse than that.
> 
> Shows that you don't know this forum very well. Trust me, just because you are a member and own a GSD doesn't mean you get a free pass on stupidity.
> (You in general, just to clarify)


Apparently, i read you wrong..my apologies..jan


----------



## myshepharley

Sunflowers said:


> I was discussing this with my husband last night.
> 
> I said we own a very powerful breed that is used as a weapon by the police and military, and reading the OP's horrible incident, I felt as if it could have been me.
> 
> There, but for the grace of God, go I.
> 
> We like to think we can control our dogs, but what we own is a predator who is very smart, very powerful, and many of us have GSDs that have a very high prey drive.
> 
> When that clicks on in a certain way, is there a way to stop it?
> 
> What would stop it?
> A prong?
> 
> How would one train and what would one use to make sure this doesn't happen? Or are we playing Russian Roulette every time we are out in public with our GSDs?


This really hit me hard. Statement that really makes you think.


----------



## Mrs.K

It could really happen to anyone one of us.


----------



## jang

Mrs.K said:


> Nobody said you are stupid.
> I said that no one on this forum gets a free pass on stupidity and you is meant in the general you, which I added because I knew, you would probably take it the wrong way.
> 
> Yes, the forum is protective of the GSD and there would be one heck of an outcry because the owner was stupid enough to leave the dog outside, in an "unfenced" electric fenced in yard that doesn't protect your dog from getting killed, stolen, etc.
> 
> If you read this forum, the general forum user believes that a dog should NEVER be in a backyard unsupervised and if you keep your dog in the backyard and your dog is stolen, gets out, hit by a car, killed by another dog, than it's YOUR fault because YOU did not make sure your dog was safely crated in the house.
> 
> Some on this forum even believe that you should crate your dog to keep him safe from the police and thugs.


You know what I am not buying that crap..THAT WAS FREAKING RUDE....


----------



## Sunflowers

Mrs.K said:


> It could really happen to anyone one of us.


In Europe many GSDs are walked with a muzzle. What do you think of this? 

Seriously-- is there a reliable way to prevent something like this from happening?


----------



## Liesje

Sunflowers said:


> Seriously-- is there a reliable way to prevent something like this from happening?


Honestly when I walk more than one dog I just use prongs. Yes they are trained and can walk nice. I live in the city and have raised my dogs here. They all do TT, STAR, CGC, BH....you name it. They are trained, well-adjusted dogs that are fine walking in traffic and even controllable around uncontrolled off leash dogs. However when I am outweighed by adult male dogs I use prongs. I don't know that I've ever had a situation where I would not have been able to control the dogs without them but like you say, you just never know. I have nothing to prove. I don't need to walk my large dogs around on a flexi leash and cheap plastic buckle collar to prove they would never, ever break free under any circumstance. I'd rather be safe than sorry and so far I've never been sorry. People can call it a "crutch" or whatever they want but I get plenty of compliments on how well trained my dogs are and how they behave neutrally in almost any situation. Bottom line is, if something ever were to happen, I can control my dogs because they are on a prong collar and 4-6' max. leashes. Nobody ever pulls over and says "oh my god you are walking dogs on a PRONG collar?" No, they pull over and say "hey nice dogs! Where'd you get them/where/who do you train with?" and can't even see what kind of collar(s) the dogs are wearing. I would never walk a dog with a muzzle unless the dog had a health problem (like my friend's dog wore a muzzle for a week when he broke some teeth).


----------



## jang

Sunflowers said:


> In Europe many GSDs are walked with a muzzle. What do you think of this?
> 
> Seriously-- is there a reliable way to prevent something like this from happening?


I would suppose some would say training...I think these things happen..be it a GSD or a pitt or a rott..or gosh any breed..I am not pointing a finger at the Op..My thoughts were only directed to the point that we as GSD owners cannot see past the fact that that we love our breed..Sometimes this clouds our perception of events..i remain very sympathetic of the ops position..I simply took exception to our overall protective mode of our breed ..To be clear..I have never loved a dog as I love my GSD..but were she to kill a small and defenseless dog..I wonder...Where would my heart be then?
Also, I may add...I use a prong on Sib..i simply cannot handle her on a neighborhood walk..Good..Bad????


----------



## Mrs.K

Sunflowers said:


> In Europe many GSDs are walked with a muzzle. What do you think of this?
> 
> Seriously-- is there a reliable way to prevent something like this from happening?


I have mixed feelings about it. It's not the worst idea, but at the same time it's really sad that it has come to this. The city manager actually suggested to muzzle Indra (when we were still in the SAR team) to take her to public places so the public is safe. 



> You know what I am not buying that crap..THAT WAS FREAKING RUDE....


Why was it rude? 
It's exactly what would happen on the forum. It's hypothetical. You asked what people on this forum would say if it was your or my GSD that got killed, and from how I know this forum, this is exactly what we would get. 

On this forum, if you have your dog, outside, while you are gone for the weekend? Oh boy... oh boy, oh boy... you would not hear the end of it. Even with a privacy fenced in yard you'd be put through the wringer.


----------



## idahospud49

Mrs.K said:


> I have mixed feelings about it. It's not the worst idea, but at the same time it's really sad that it has come to this. The city manager actually suggested to muzzle Indra (when we were still in the SAR team) to take her to public places so the public is safe.
> 
> 
> 
> Why was it rude?
> It's exactly what would happen on the forum. It's hypothetical. You asked what people on this forum would say if it was your or my GSD that got killed, and from how I know this forum, this is exactly what we would get.
> 
> *On this forum, if you have your dog, outside, while you are gone for the weekend? Oh boy... oh boy, oh boy... you would not hear the end of it. Even with a privacy fenced in yard you'd be put through the wringer.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> This is soooo true about this forum! I will keep my personal opinions about dogs being outside to myself. This forum is particularly pro inside/crated dogs.


----------



## Mrs.K

idahospud49 said:


> This is soooo true about this forum! I will keep my personal opinions about dogs being outside to myself. This forum is particularly pro inside/crated dogs.


Yep. You must keep the dog inside/crated to keep the dog safe from:



eating something that could kill them
so they don't destroy the house
so they don't get themselves into trouble
in case the house is robbed, so your dog doesn't get killed by the intruder
in case the house is robbed and your dog defends your house, bites the intruder and the intruder is ending up suing you while breaking into your home
in case the police shows up at the wrong house and shoots your dog
in case there is an emergency and ems can't enter the house, calls the police and the police shoots your dog
in case the dog hangs themselves in the backyard
in case the dog goes over the fence, gets hit by a car
in case some whacko throws poison over the fence
in case the cops run by your yard and shoot the dog because they feel threatened
in case they dig themselves through the fence and get out
in case somebody steals them from your yard
in case another dog gets in and kills your dog
because of weather (hot, cold, rain etc)
etc. etc. etc.


----------



## Kaity

myshepharley said:


> I was prepared. I always tighten up and cross the street first. I never said I was not holding tightly.


Dog on a flat leash? Throw a prong on him. Problem solved..


----------



## idahospud49

Mrs.K said:


> Yep. You must keep the dog inside/crated to keep the dog safe from:
> 
> 
> 
> eating something that could kill them
> so they don't destroy the house
> so they don't get themselves into trouble
> in case the house is robbed, so your dog doesn't get killed by the intruder
> in case the house is robbed and your dog defends your house, bites the intruder and the intruder is ending up suing you while breaking into your home
> in case the police shows up at the wrong house and shoots your dog
> in case there is an emergency and ems can't enter the house, calls the police and the police shoots your dog
> in case the dog hangs themselves in the backyard
> in case the dog goes over the fence, gets hit by a car
> in case some whacko throws poison over the fence
> in case the cops run by your yard and shoot the dog because they feel threatened
> in case they dig themselves through the fence and get out
> in case somebody steals them from your yard
> in case another dog gets in and kills your dog
> because of weather (hot, cold, rain etc)
> etc. etc. etc.


In case they bark, neighbors complain and AC is called.
In case they go UNDER the fence and cause who knows what sort of mayhem. (Oh dang it you put that one!)
In case a nuclear bomb goes off, the crate will magically protect them. (Oh dear, was that offensive?)
In case a deer comes in your backyard causing your dog to chase it.


----------



## onyx'girl

I keep my dogs inside because they want to be with me. And I won't apologize for it. I don't have dogs because I want a kennel in my back yard....I have them because they are companions. If I'm outside so are they.


----------



## katdog5911

How awful for all involved. To the op-accidents happen. Just the other day I was walking my gsd on a long line. Another dog jumped out from the woods. Stella started to run to it and the leash broke! Fortunately both dogs just had a staring contest and Stella did finally come when I called. But the other dog was a big schnauzer. What would have happened if it was a little yorkie and it ran? Don't beat yourself or your dog up. Learn from this and move on.


----------



## chelle

onyx'girl said:


> I keep my dogs inside because they want to be with me. And I won't apologize for it. I don't have dogs because I want a kennel in my back yard....I have them because they are companions. If I'm outside so are they.


Double and triple thumbs up.

I realize that "list" of "what-ifs" was meant as sarcasm, but there are plenty of *too* likely possibilities there for me and my dogs. You want to take those risks? Go right ahead, but get off your high horse for those of us who do not want to, nor want our dogs away from us.


----------



## Syaoransbear

Kaity said:


> Dog on a flat leash? Throw a prong on him. Problem solved..


Unless I read wrong, the OP's dog was on a harness, which is even worse than a flat collar for control. A harness allows the dog to pull at full strength uninhibited by choking.

I always walk my dog on a prong, specifically a Secret Power prong collar because then I don't have to worry about any prongs loosening and coming apart(although I've never had this happen when the prong collar was done up properly). It doesn't matter how well trained the dog is, they are animals and they will still follow instinct. The fact that my dog is physically able to drag me _and_ another adult across the ground with just a flat collar means I'll always walk him with a prong no matter what. It's for his safety and the safety of others. I don't trust people, so I'm not going to trust an animal to listen to me on all occasions either. I can barely fight against my own instincts, otherwise I'd be 20 pounds lighter, so I stay prepared for the day when my dog is going to listen to his instincts over my commands no matter how throughout his training is or how obedient he has been in the past.


I'm glad the owners forgive your dog and aren't going to request his destruction. Personally I'd probably pay for the rabies testing bill just so I wouldn't have to argue with them about it. I hope they see this as a hard lesson and keep their remaining dogs confined behind a real fence. I can't believe they go on holidays and leave their dogs loose only protected by an invisible fence. Despite all the dangerous animals/people that can go in the yard and hurt the dogs, there's also the possibility of the batteries on the collar running out and the dogs escaping.


----------



## Verivus

Depends on the harness. I use an easy walk harness which has the D ring on the chest instead of the back which prohibits pulling. I use a prong as well.

I keep my dogs in the yard when nobody is home.


----------



## myshepharley

Yes Harley was on a harness because for walks that worked so much better on him. He responded well to it. Guess I need to rethink that now.


----------



## Syaoransbear

Verivus said:


> Depends on the harness. I use an easy walk harness which has the D ring on the chest instead of the back which prohibits pulling. I use a prong as well.
> 
> I keep my dogs in the yard when nobody is home.


Maybe it's just me, but when people only say 'harness' I always assume they are talking about a normal harness and not any of the no-pull harnesses out there.


----------



## Anthony8858

Just wondering what direction this thread would have gone, if the title was " German Shepherd Protects me from charging vicious Possum"?

Have we decided that a dog has the ability to differentiate one small animal from the other?

Did Harley know that there was in invisible fence?

In one breath, we talk about prey drive, and how wonderful it is. In another breath, we condemn for using that prey drive.

I don't think the GSD did anything wrong.

Owner maybe should have had more control of Yorkie
Owner should have had more control of Harley.


----------



## Mrs.K

chelle said:


> Double and triple thumbs up.
> 
> I realize that "list" of "what-ifs" was meant as sarcasm, but there are plenty of *too* likely possibilities there for me and my dogs. You want to take those risks? Go right ahead, but get off your high horse for those of us who do not want to, nor want our dogs away from us.


How do you know if it was sarcasm or not? These things, very well could happen. There is always a risk but at the same time we can't live in fear of "what if". 

It is a personal choice and if you chose to leave your dog outside, in an unfenced yard, with just an electric fence (which basically doesn't protect your dog at all), than you have got to live with the consequences. 

The question was, how the forum would react if it was a GSD being killed, under the same circumstances and I merely pointed out that it would not sit well with the forum, cause an uproar and outrage over so much stupidity, since we got to know each other quite well over the years. 

Honestly, I believe, if it was one of my dogs, getting killed under the same circumstances, or let's say, your dog, Onyx's dog (etc) it would most likely end up in a flamewar, the topic deleted, with several warnings sent out, simply because people on here expect more than negligence and blatant stupidity. 
I'm pretty sure, they'd be shocked to the core of their bones if we'd set our dogs up for failure like that.


----------



## myshepharley

Anthony8858 said:


> Just wondering what direction this thread would have gone, if the title was " German Shepherd Protects me from charging vicious Possum"?
> 
> Have we decided that a dog has the ability to differentiate one small animal from the other?
> 
> Did Harley know that there was in invisible fence?
> 
> In one breath, we talk about prey drive, and how wonderful it is. In another breath, we condemn for using that prey drive.
> 
> I don't think the GSD did anything wrong.
> 
> Owner maybe should have had more control of Yorkie
> Owner should have had more control of Harley.


No harley couldn't of known there was an efence. Yes I should of had more control. Why is it that I can not see it as " he did nothing wrong"? I just can't let go of that scene.


----------



## onyx'girl

It was the viciousness of the attack I would think, that is at issue. 
I posted at the beginning of your thread, it is in my thoughts often, this same scenario. My females would have done the same thing, I'm afraid. My neighborhood has dogs that would set them up to fail so we just stick to the trails behind my house. 
Nothing we can say will take that ugly memory away, unfortunately.


----------



## Sunflowers

myshepharley said:


> Why is it that I can not see it as " he did nothing wrong"? I just can't let go of that scene.


Because you are looking at him as you would look at a human who did this. 

A human (well, most, anyway) knows killing is wrong, knows right from wrong, has a conscience.

An animal-- none of the above. 

We tend to see these animals as our "boys," "babies," we humanize them, give them names, buy them toys, treat them like furry children. And then, when we are shockingly reminded that these are not humans, it shatters us. 

Until you let yourself admit that Harley functions at a different level and under a different set of rules, you will not be able to get over this.


----------



## chelle

Mrs.K said:


> How do you know if it was sarcasm or not? These things, very well could happen. There is always a risk but at the same time we can't live in fear of "what if".
> 
> It is a personal choice and if you chose to leave your dog outside, in an unfenced yard, with just an electric fence (which basically doesn't protect your dog at all), than you have got to live with the consequences.
> 
> The question was, how the forum would react if it was a GSD being killed, under the same circumstances and I merely pointed out that it would not sit well with the forum, cause an uproar and outrage over so much stupidity, since we got to know each other quite well over the years.
> 
> Honestly, I believe, if it was one of my dogs, getting killed under the same circumstances, or let's say, your dog, Onyx's dog (etc) it would most likely end up in a flamewar, the topic deleted, with several warnings sent out, simply because people on here expect more than negligence and blatant stupidity.
> I'm pretty sure, they'd be shocked to the core of their bones if we'd set our dogs up for failure like that.


If I took your reply wrong (sarcasm,) (and I think I must have,) then I am wrong and am sorry for that. That *is* how I took it.

You're right, it wouldn't sit well at all with the forum.. and I don't think you'd find too many (if any) regulars around here with such a poor, unsecure, pathetic containment situation.


----------



## cliffson1

Good post sunflowers....dogs are animals in spite of how we view them and to see them any other way is not always healthy for the breed or in some cases owners.


----------



## Mrs.K

cliffson1 said:


> Good post sunflowers....dogs are animals in spite of how we view them and to see them any other way is not always heualthy for the breed or in some cases owners.


Agreed. Very good post. Been going on about humanization of dogs for decades. It is what it is and what we make it to be. 
There is nothing wrong with loving your "furry kids" as long as you still remember and know what powerful predators they are. Dogs are predators. Cats are Predators. With all the cutifying of animals, that knowledge has gone down the drain and some people even seem to forget how dangerous bears and wild cats are in zoo's and get to close to take that perfect picture or even pet them.


----------



## blackshep

Sunflowers said:


> Because you are looking at him as you would look at a human who did this.
> 
> A human (well, most, anyway) knows killing is wrong, knows right from wrong, has a conscience.
> 
> An animal-- none of the above.
> 
> We tend to see these animals as our "boys," "babies," we humanize them, give them names, buy them toys, treat them like furry children. And then, when we are shockingly reminded that these are not humans, it shatters us.
> 
> Until you let yourself admit that Harley functions at a different level and under a different set of rules, you will not be able to get over this.


Great post Sunflowers (as was your last one!). 

They have a show on Animal Planet called Fatal Attractions which involves people who take in animals like crocodiles, hyenas etc and treat them like a regular pet or child and wonder why things went wrong. 

Dogs are no different. They are animals who are highly in tune with their natural instincts as predators. My pup is a wonderful dog, but can I say 100% something like this won't happen to us, or that she'd never bite someone? No, I can't say that. Nobody can. 

We can only try to minimize the chances of this happening by being vigilant about our training, and aware of our surroundings at all times. But sometimes things happen that are beyond our control to stop.

My heart goes out to the OP. I'm so sorry this happened to you. It sounds like it was just a perfect storm that was brewing that day and you got caught in the rain.


----------



## shannonrae

myshepharley said:


> If I would be a cold heartless person, I could of left the dog lay there to die and quick went home. Nobody would of known. But I sat on their porch holding him close until they got home.


This.
Accidents happen, people and dogs make mistakes. It the end it is how you handle it and what you do to remedy it and prevent it from happening again that matters most. 

Big props to you for being honest and staying with the poor little dog. Not everybody would have reacted with such moral soundness!


----------



## Mary Beth

shannonrae said:


> This.
> Accidents happen, people and dogs make mistakes. It the end it is how you handle it and what you do to remedy it and prevent it from happening again that matters most.
> 
> Big props to you for being honest and staying with the poor little dog. Not everybody would have reacted with such moral soundness!


I so agree and I commend you for your honesty and taking responsibility for your dog's actions. I have made that mistake too in underestimating the prey drive of my GSD and the same tragedy could have happened to the other dog. I was lucky - only mild puncture wounds to the fluffy little dog, $100 vet bill that I paid, an understanding sheriff who has grown up with GSDs, and the little dog's owner lied about letting her dog off the leash directly to come straight at mine. As other posts have said, it is time to move on. To prevent it from happening again, step up the training. If you have a trainer to work with in your area, now is the time to contact her. If not, there are many excellent threads on this forum on that topic. Couple of suggestions - be very careful where you walk your dog. Curve or cross the street, change directions when you see other dogs to put some distance. Try to avoid tightening up on the leash when you see other dogs. When the leash is tightened or one is trying to get a good grip - the tension is conveyed right down that leash to the dog. Keep the dog on heel and focused on you. Play tug with your dog and be sure to let him win - that will give him an outlet for his prey drive. You and your dog can get past this.


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## myshepharley

Once again, thank you to everyone. I was almost ready to give up because I didn't think I could take a chance of going thru this again. But everytime I look into those dark beautiful eyes of his, I realizex that I can't gi e up. He means toooo much to me and I think it would devastate both of us. So let the retraining begin!!! Someone mentioned a prong collar. Is there a specific one? He has always been a puller that's why I use the harness bacause he does well with that. But I am open to any suggestions. Also, if the AC was going to show up, what is the time frame for that? So far, nothing. Harley and I appreciate all of you.


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## Zeeva

Sunflowers said:


> Because you are looking at him as you would look at a human who did this.
> 
> A human (well, most, anyway) knows killing is wrong, knows right from wrong, has a conscience.
> 
> An animal-- none of the above.
> 
> We tend to see these animals as our "boys," "babies," we humanize them, give them names, buy them toys, treat them like furry children. And then, when we are shockingly reminded that these are not humans, it shatters us.
> 
> Until you let yourself admit that Harley functions at a different level and under a different set of rules, you will not be able to get over this.



Very much agree...This should sooth you somewhat, I feel.

I know some people aren't on your side, but I am...Take it easy. Keep us posted. Lots of <3, good thoughts, prayers and best wishes for the future...


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## Sunflowers

Two of us already suggested the Secret Powers one.


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## stealthq

Liesje said:


> it's pretty obvious when someone has rabies 10 days out, you'd either be dead or look like those people in Quarantine.


Wait. How is that? The incubation time for rabies in humans ranges anywhere from a couple of days to 7 years, and most commonly several weeks to months.

To the OP: I would suggest a prong collar as well - someone else with more knowledge should be able to provide a suggestion on brand, I use one I got from PetSmart, and I'm sure it's not the most durable. I started using one because my dog is more than capable of ripping the leash out of my hands no matter how tight my grip and no matter how many times I wind it around my hand\s, unless I use it like you see people doing for bitework training in Schutzhund - leash guided by one hand, leash passed behind back at butt level, leash held by other hand. Then when he lunges, I can basically lean back into the pull and take most of the force with my weight, not my hand. It works, but it's a pain to walk a dog that way. The prong collar has let me be in control and hold the leash normally even when my dog loses his mind lunging. Just make sure that collar is properly fitted - really snug.


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## myshepharley

Sunflowers said:


> Two of us already suggested the Secret Powers one.


Sorry I couldn't find the post


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## katdog5911

I used to use a no pull harness. It helped but did nothing to control Stella's head. I have a prong now and it has been wonderful. I am more on control of my dog and my arms stay in their sockets. My trainer gave it to me. It seemed so tight to me but trainer said this is how it should be. So if u do get a prong make sure it is sized correctly and u learn how to use it. I would be interested on the prong someone mentioned earlier.


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## Lilie

I always use at least a 8' lead. I walk my dog on my left. I take the excess lead and loop it in my right hand. Not tight around my hand, but in loops and hold the lead. Take my left hand and hold the lead the controls the dog, palm facing *behind* me. 

If I allow the dog to forge ahead of me, I provide a little more lead, letting it slide through my left hand and providing one loop from my right. If I need to take up extra lead I cross my right hand in front of me (towards my left), grasping the lead in front of me and create another loop for my right hand. 

If the dog should happen to dart from me, because I've got my palm facing behind me, the lead isn't going to jerk out of my fingers. But, if it does, I still have the lead in my right hand. So if needed I can feed out a little more lead (to avoid being jerked off my feet) and/or supply a sharp correction to the dog. 

I *never* use a short lead. A habit I've gotten into due to years of horse ownership.


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## stealthq

Lilie said:


> I always use at least a 8' lead. I walk my dog on my left. I take the excess lead and loop it in my right hand. Not tight around my hand, but in loops and hold the lead. Take my left hand and hold the lead the controls the dog, palm facing *behind* me.
> 
> If I allow the dog to forge ahead of me, I provide a little more lead, letting it slide through my left hand and providing one loop from my right. If I need to take up extra lead I cross my right hand in front of me (towards my left), grasping the lead in front of me and create another loop for my right hand.
> 
> If the dog should happen to dart from me, because I've got my palm facing behind me, the lead isn't going to jerk out of my fingers. But, if it does, I still have the lead in my right hand. So if needed I can feed out a little more lead (to avoid being jerked off my feet) and/or supply a sharp correction to the dog.
> 
> I *never* use a short lead. A habit I've gotten into due to years of horse ownership.


With a flat collar, this method did not work for me. Sometimes I managed to keep hold of the leash, but he has pulled me completely off of my feet and dragged me behind him. Let me say that my dog is about 40lbs. I weigh around 140lbs, am prepared for the lunging because we are at class and I know what's coming, and _still_ he can do this if I hold the leash this way. I hate to think what he could do if weighed twice as much, which many GSDs do. Any correction with a flat collar is nothing to him and any pulling just ramps him up more. I ended up having him wear a harness that I could grab and lift him off the ground if I needed to. That worked, but the prong collar is much easier on us both, I think.

With a prong collar, this method works perfectly. He does occasionally need me to give a strong correction with it when he's lost in either play or prey drive, but usually he self-corrects when he feels it start to tighten because he's close to the limit of the slack.


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## Sunflowers

myshepharley said:


> Sorry I couldn't find the post


Sometimes I post from my phone at traffic lights  Otherwise I would have reposted sooner. 

I like this prong because it is easy to put on, easy to take off, the prongs are good quality, and the collar actually looks gorgeous!

Secret Power


Must admit, I had used it very sparingly, but from now on I will have him wear it. 
Also, at 9 months, Hans is old enough to have it on.


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## Lilie

stealthq said:


> With a flat collar, this method did not work for me.


My post was only geared as a suggestion as to how to hold leash and not regarding a specific collar. I've never used a prong, I've never had to. Not saying I won't, I just never have had the need.


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## doggiedad

since you know the dogs bark and lunge and
are only semi protected by an e-fence why
walk pass them even if you're on the other 
side of the street?

if the ankle nippers were the side of a German
Shepherd would you continually walk pass them?

did your dog ever get away from you when the owners
of the little dogs were home?


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## llombardo

Sunflowers said:


> Sometimes I post from my phone at traffic lights  Otherwise I would have reposted sooner.
> 
> I like this prong because it is easy to put on, easy to take off, the prongs are good quality, and the collar actually looks gorgeous!
> 
> Secret Power
> 
> 
> Must admit, I had used it very sparingly, but from now on I will have him wear it.
> Also, at 9 months, Hans is old enough to have it on.


I have a regular prong that I used maybe three times. This is really nice, lots of choices too.


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## Mary Beth

Timeframe for the AC officer to show up. Well, based on my experience - the incident happened on Monday, the sheriff called me the next morning. Of course - the little dog's owner had filed a complaint. In your case,if the owners haven't filed a complaint and no humans were attacked (see - it could have been much worse), maybe they won't. But what was suggested to me by a co-worker when my Husky (of all dogs ) got a complaint for barking and I was worried, was to call or go down to the AC office as I did have a right to see the complaint and know the status. So rather than worry and picture the worse, you may want to do the same. You may be told it is a civil matter and no crime was committed but the AC have to investigate if there is a complaint. It don't know how it would work in your state.
On to retraining, since I've been there, I suggest you hold off on the prong collar and rethink your walking strategy. You and your dog are both under stress (which he is picking up from you - he probably can't understand why you are upset, but still senses that you are, and that upsets him). Take him in quiet places, even if you have to get up extra early. Hold the leash as Lilie suggested. Keep your distance from other dogs. Have him concentrate on you. I decided to try the harness first but with a training method which keeps you dog focused on you.(dogwalkinsync.com - there's a video on the website that explains the training method). When your dog is focused on you, he can't get into such unpleasant situations. When you see another dog, sharply turn, curve, go in different directions, with the leash held properly - he will have no choice but to follow and concentrate on you. Reward him for following you. Think positive - walking together side by side. And be sure to leave time for tug - I use 2 tugs attached to leashes. My dog waits on the down/stay while I go out about 20 ft. (in my fenced in backyard) -when I lower my hand - he dashes out to attack the tug I have scooted on the ground - he grabs it - I tug, then I drop it and scoot the other one (you'll find it's a great release for your stress and you dog's) - have a good game - then you give up - slink away like you're defeated - turn and praise him for being the winner. When he brings the tugs to you - reward and praise him. You're letting him satisfy his prey drive in a safe manner.


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## Mrs.K

Mary Beth said:


> Timeframe for the AC officer to show up. Well, based on my experience - the incident happened on Monday, the sheriff called me the next morning. Of course - the little dog's owner had filed a complaint. In your case,if the owners haven't filed a complaint and no humans were attacked (see - it could have been much worse), maybe they won't. But what was suggested to me by a co-worker when my Husky (of all dogs ) got a complaint for barking and I was worried, was to call or go down to the AC office as I did have a right to see the complaint and know the status. So rather than worry and picture the worse, you may want to do the same. You may be told it is a civil matter and no crime was committed but the AC have to investigate if there is a complaint. It don't know how it would work in your state.
> On to retraining, since I've been there, I suggest you hold off on the prong collar and rethink your walking strategy. You and your dog are both under stress (which he is picking up from you - he probably can't understand why you are upset, but still senses that you are, and that upsets him). Take him in quiet places, even if you have to get up extra early. Hold the leash as Lilie suggested. Keep your distance from other dogs. Have him concentrate on you. I decided to try the harness first but with a training method which keeps you dog focused on you.(dogwalkinsync.com - there's a video on the website that explains the training method). When your dog is focused on you, he can't get into such unpleasant situations. When you see another dog, sharply turn, curve, go in different directions, with the leash held properly - he will have no choice but to follow and concentrate on you. Reward him for following you. Think positive - walking together side by side. And be sure to leave time for tug - I use 2 tugs attached to leashes. My dog waits on the down/stay while I go out about 20 ft. (in my fenced in backyard) -when I lower my hand - he dashes out to attack the tug I have scooted on the ground - he grabs it - I tug, then I drop it and scoot the other one (you'll find it's a great release for your stress and you dog's) - have a good game - then you give up - slink away like you're defeated - turn and praise him for being the winner. When he brings the tugs to you - reward and praise him. You're letting him satisfy his prey drive in a safe manner.


She can have a prong on the dog and still work on his focus. 
Better safe than sorry.


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## Blanketback

The Secret Power collars are gorgeous, but I like my Herm Sprenger prong collar. If you don't want to order online you can get prong collars at most pet stores. Before you buy it, check the tips of the prongs to make sure they're rounded, because I've seen some very cheaply made ones where the tips are just chopped off, and they're sharp.


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## myshepharley

Mary Beth said:


> Timeframe for the AC officer to show up. Well, based on my experience - the incident happened on Monday, the sheriff called me the next morning. Of course - the little dog's owner had filed a complaint. In your case,if the owners haven't filed a complaint and no humans were attacked (see - it could have been much worse), maybe they won't. But what was suggested to me by a co-worker when my Husky (of all dogs ) got a complaint for barking and I was worried, was to call or go down to the AC office as I did have a right to see the complaint and know the status. So rather than worry and picture the worse, you may want to do the same. You may be told it is a civil matter and no crime was committed but the AC have to investigate if there is a complaint. It don't know how it would work in your state.
> On to retraining, since I've been there, I suggest you hold off on the prong collar and rethink your walking strategy. You and your dog are both under stress (which he is picking up from you - he probably can't understand why you are upset, but still senses that you are, and that upsets him). Take him in quiet places, even if you have to get up extra early. Hold the leash as Lilie suggested. Keep your distance from other dogs. Have him concentrate on you. I decided to try the harness first but with a training method which keeps you dog focused on you.(dogwalkinsync.com - there's a video on the website that explains the training method). When your dog is focused on you, he can't get into such unpleasant situations. When you see another dog, sharply turn, curve, go in different directions, with the leash held properly - he will have no choice but to follow and concentrate on you. Reward him for following you. Think positive - walking together side by side. And be sure to leave time for tug - I use 2 tugs attached to leashes. My dog waits on the down/stay while I go out about 20 ft. (in my fenced in backyard) -when I lower my hand - he dashes out to attack the tug I have scooted on the ground - he grabs it - I tug, then I drop it and scoot the other one (you'll find it's a great release for your stress and you dog's) - have a good game - then you give up - slink away like you're defeated - turn and praise him for being the winner. When he brings the tugs to you - reward and praise him. You're letting him satisfy his prey drive in a safe manner.


Thank you for the great info.


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## codmaster

doggiedad said:


> since you know the dogs bark and lunge and
> are only semi protected by an e-fence why
> walk pass them even if you're on the other
> side of the street?
> 
> if the ankle nippers were the side of a German
> Shepherd would you continually walk pass them?
> 
> did your dog ever get away from you when the owners
> of the little dogs were home?


"Take back the streets!"


Why not walk down a public street?


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