# toy release inconsistent



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Deja was good at releasing the toy after fetch until lately. It has become intermittent. Sometimes she holds on to it.it can be in the beginning of the session or later. I have tried waiting her out, staring in her eyes, folding her lips inside, offering a treat. Nothing works when she insistent to holding onto it. I have run out of ideas and don't want to fight her. I briefly thought about using the e-collar but I think she will learn to release it only as long as I have the control with me. Ideas? Other than that she is the picture of obedience.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Do you immediately release her back onto the toy as a reward when she outs? My female is a snapping turtle with a toy but the initial grab/bite is more rewarding than actually having possession of it so she will out in a hurry if she gets to bite again immediately.

I have used an e collar to out her prior to above method. It works. It would work fine if you do your collar conditioning so she can't associate wearing the collar and you holding the remote.

My girl holds on tighter if you do anything confrontational to make her release, the stuff you said about staring in the eyes and folding lips. She relishes the fight. Not with the e collar.

Her other thing is that I have hever allowed play with "drive" toys indoors so if I haul her into the house she will out so if I follow through promptly and she knows I mean business


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Do you immediately release her back onto the toy as a reward when she outs? My female is a snapping turtle with a toy but the initial grab/bite is more rewarding than actually having possession of it so she will out in a hurry if she gets to bite again immediately.
> 
> It is not a problem with tug. If she releases after fetch, we play again. She releases well when she is in a down and I tell her "OUT!"
> 
> ...


She never has toys inside. When we go inside and she has the toy (with permission) she easily releases it, actually waits for me to tell her.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

So you could solve this without the e collar if you wanted, tell her out and if she doesn't immediately take her into house as promptly as possible. Probably have a drag line on her to start. Once she knows you are serious she mmight out it before you get all the way in in which case you give it right back or give her another equivalent toy off your person the instant she outs.

What is it that she won't give up, a ball? Also mine will out a ball on a rope easier than a plain ball

Also I should say that my dog knew how to turn collar pressure off with her actions before I used it for this. Does Deja know that?


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Is she in an excited state when she doesn't want to release. Sometimes Rosko will not release when he gets back to me. Rather he wants to keep the prize he just ran after. Usually when this happens he has a look to him. If I tell him sit and give him a couple pets while calmly saying calm to him he will then release on my release command. If he still acts like he's not interested in releasing I can say leave it and he will drop it. If I have to go that route we're done playing with that toy. 
Coincidentally I have seen him and my son playing ball and he doesn't want to release and my son simply grabs him by his top jaw and pulls up while holding the ball saying Rosko release in his manliest 13 yr old voice and Rosko releases every time.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

You could also go back to trading for another toy,like you probably did when he was a puppy.Temporarily,just to recondition the automatic out.When they're excited it is hard for them to unclench their jaws and release the prize.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

It is worse with balls, either on a rope or not. It seems like the ones she can squish are the worst. Can't wait till tomorrow. The plan is using a solid rubber ball she cannot squish; when she doesn't release I am letting her have the toy and go inside by myself, leaving her there with her prize. If she doesn't seem to care about that (I will watch her unseen to her), I will return and take her inside, toy and all, no more commands or talk. No further consequence other than ignoring her for a while. Next time it is immediately going back inside. I don't need a drag line as I can always get a hold of her. If that doesn't work, then I will use the Ecollar.
It is much easier to outsmart someone else's dog than your own. Thanks every one.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

One other thing that has worked for mine: she wants to lay down with it. So I will force her to sit and just hold the rope (ball on rope), this gets old for her and she will out.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Results first session. (I had attached a short tag on her collar so I didn't have to grab her by the collar in case she wouldn't release):
Used the most valuable ball(squishable one) to start and to challenge her. First release was perfect as she wasn't too hyper yet. Second no release so I immediately took her inside (calmly and quiet), took the ball and put her on a down stay for 3 minutes. Tried again with same ball: perfect release. Then worked with a solid rubber one on a rope: perfect releases. Went back to the valuable ball: prefect releases. Gave her another one to have and to end the session: perfect release before going back inside where she voluntarily stood to release the ball. Successful with just one time-out. So will try this several times more to see if it stuck. For now, I was smarter than she was. Yeah!!!! I out-did my GSD!!
Thank you for objectively thinking with me.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

wolfy dog said:


> Deja was good at releasing the toy after fetch until lately. It has become intermittent. Sometimes she holds on to it.it can be in the beginning of the session or later. I have tried waiting her out, staring in her eyes, folding her lips inside, offering a treat. Nothing works when she insistent to holding onto it. I have run out of ideas and don't want to fight her. I briefly thought about using the e-collar but I think she will learn to release it only as long as I have the control with me. Ideas? Other than that she is the picture of obedience.


Do you have a second toy? Or ever use a second toy? 

She needs to learn how to play the game correctly, and you need to learn how to make her out motivationally. Some dogs are high prey and possessive of their toy and are stubborn or reluctant to out. I'd use a second toy and vary your routine. IME, going to compulsion often makes this worse. Especially, if you don't use enough force to really stop the behavior for good.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

wolfy dog said:


> Results first session. (I had attached a short tag on her collar so I didn't have to grab her by the collar in case she wouldn't release):
> Used the most valuable ball(squishable one) to start and to challenge her. First release was perfect as she wasn't too hyper yet. Second no release so I immediately took her inside (calmly and quiet), took the ball and bput her on a down stay for 3 minutes. Tried again with same ball: perfect release. Then worked with a solid rubber one on a rope: perfect releases. Went back to the valuable ball: prefect releases. Gave her another one to have and to end the session: perfect release before going back inside where she voluntarily stood to release the ball. Successful with just one time-out. So will try this several times more to see if it stuck. For now, I was smarter than she was. Yeah!!!! I out-did my GSD!!
> Thank you for objectively thinking with me.


I would give her the highest value toy as a reward for outing the lowest value toy at least to start. And when you give her the high value one as a reward let her just keep it and don't try to take it away immediately


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Slamdunc said:


> Do you have a second toy? Or ever use a second toy?
> 
> She needs to learn how to play the game correctly, and you need to learn how to make her out motivationally. Some dogs are high prey and possessive of their toy and are stubborn or reluctant to out. I'd use a second toy and vary your routine. IME, going to compulsion often makes this worse. Especially, if you don't use enough force to really stop the behavior for good.


This would be an option for a back up plan.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I would give her the highest value toy as a reward for outing the lowest value toy at least to start. And when you give her the high value one as a reward let her just keep it and don't try to take it away immediately


Good point for the start. In the end she got to keep her favorite though.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

I would just do the substitution for two toys of equal value. I use two Kongs on a rope and teach it instinctively and motivationally. They two toy game works perfectly. You simply pair the dog's natural desire to drop the toy and the thought process of dropping the first toy to get the second. The only dog that I have ever had an issue with dropping or "outing" a toy is Boru, because he would nail you if you used compulsion for to get his toy or take him away from a toy. It took quiet a few weeks and a lot of patience to get him to reliably and quickly out his toy on command. I had to get past a lot of baggage, and a lot of conflict with a highly driven, high prey and very toy possessive dog. The fact that he had already bit a 1/2 dozen people didn't help. Patience and praise worked very well, I could have gone to the E collar but didn't see a reason or a need too. Now, I can reach into his mouth and remove his toy, no worries and no more issues.

The "lip folding" thing is something that I would never do, not my style and certainly not with my dogs. Not even a possibility with Boru. 

Once you start with compulsion, E collar, prong or "folding the lip" over it can be hard to get past the conflict that can be created. For what I do in sport or Patrol work, the out is a basic function and command. Getting a highly driven dog to out a suit, sleeve or person is generally harder than outing a toy. My training for the "out" in bite work starts by imprinting a motivational out on a toy. Then pressure can be added in, but only when a dog can reliably out a toy. Until then, it's hard to progress to anything else more complicated. I wouldn't be able to do any obedience, detection work or anything else with my dogs if they wouldn't reliably out a toy. It is the first thing I teach a dog, puppy or adult along with a fast recall. 

IMHO, it is going to boil down to reading your dog and recognizing the moment that she decides to hold the toy and not out. You will see this long before you say out. Her body language will give it away and it may be associated with your body language in some way. If she were my dog and I saw this about to happen I wouldn't say out, I might say "hold" and reward her for holding the toy. Then I'd get her to release and praise for holding the toy and outing. I have a dog in my unit that does this. The handler and dog were trained elsewhere and it was all compulsion based training. You can see the behavior in the dog long before the handler does and tells the dog to "out." The handler becomes frustrated and the wheels fall off the bus. It was a big issue in cross training this dog in Narcotics detection. Another trainer made the handler force the dog to out the toy in detection work, by flanking and lifting the dog, prong and E collar. I about lost my mind seeing this, totally unnecessary and really counterproductive. I took the dog, and in less than a minute, changed the dog's state of mind and had it outing. The handler stills has an issue every now and then and I will take the dog and get it to out immediately. 

After typing all this, I went back and read your post on page one where you got the dog to out the balls. I'm a little under the weather and exhausted from a long night, I should have read all the posts more thoroughly.

Good job. Hope it works out.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Loved this post. I agree the lip folding doesn't work and it was done out of frustration. We can't be prefect all the time (poor excuse?). I realized it at that very moment and knew I was wrong, hence my first post in this thread. So she and I are back on track and the release hasn't been an issue so far. What also helps, I think, is that I let her keep the toy once in a while with the command "Yours". Initially she is happy to have possession of the toy and runs off but then quickly returns with a look in her face/body language that says, "OK, let's play again" and she eagerly gives it up when asked. Thank Heavens for the flexibility of dogs.


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## LouLouLemon (Oct 11, 2016)

Hi Slamdunc,


My Louie loves to play fetch but will bring his toy back without dropping. He will sometimes run back towards me but not to me, then veer off in another direction when he's about a foot from me. When I reach for his toy, it's like he wants me to chase him. Other times, he will squeak, squeak, squeak his toy right on me, pushing against my hand, leg, anywhere he can. When I tell him to "drop" he just stares at me. I do train him to "drop" and then reward with a treat. He will do this every time but I feel like we are making no progress towards dropping with no treat reward besides a "good boy" and a pat on his side. I am able to take his toy from him but I want him to "drop it" on his own. Is there any tips or advice you could share with me? 




Slamdunc said:


> I would just do the substitution for two toys of equal value. I use two Kongs on a rope and teach it instinctively and motivationally. They two toy game works perfectly. You simply pair the dog's natural desire to drop the toy and the thought process of dropping the first toy to get the second. The only dog that I have ever had an issue with dropping or "outing" a toy is Boru, because he would nail you if you used compulsion for to get his toy or take him away from a toy. It took quiet a few weeks and a lot of patience to get him to reliably and quickly out his toy on command. I had to get past a lot of baggage, and a lot of conflict with a highly driven, high prey and very toy possessive dog. The fact that he had already bit a 1/2 dozen people didn't help. Patience and praise worked very well, I could have gone to the E collar but didn't see a reason or a need too. Now, I can reach into his mouth and remove his toy, no worries and no more issues.
> 
> The "lip folding" thing is something that I would never do, not my style and certainly not with my dogs. Not even a possibility with Boru.
> 
> ...


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

LouLouLemon said:


> Hi Slamdunc,
> 
> 
> My Louie loves to play fetch but will bring his toy back without dropping. He will sometimes run back towards me but not to me, then veer off in another direction when he's about a foot from me. When I reach for his toy, it's like he wants me to chase him. Other times, he will squeak, squeak, squeak his toy right on me, pushing against my hand, leg, anywhere he can. When I tell him to "drop" he just stares at me. I do train him to "drop" and then reward with a treat. He will do this every time but I feel like we are making no progress towards dropping with no treat reward besides a "good boy" and a pat on his side. I am able to take his toy from him but I want him to "drop it" on his own. Is there any tips or advice you could share with me?


Hello LouLouLemon,
I always use two of the exact same toy, this never seems to work well with one toy and treats. I use a kong on a rope, but what ever toy your dog likes will work, as long as you have two. The game is the "two toy game." The dog gets the second toy, which you make very exciting after he drops the first toy. You have to become more exciting than the toy your dog has, you also have to make the toy in your hand more exciting than the toy the dog has. Dogs learn through repetition and some skills take hundreds of reps to learn. I watch my dog and at the instant he begins to open his mouth to drop the first toy for the second, I say "out" and pay with the second toy. It is a game. A very high energy motivational game where the dog associates dropping what is in it's mouth in a pleasant, happy context. With the right amount of reps and patience your dog will get it. 

Your dog has made up his own game and it's keep away. I would try two toys and see how that works.


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

A second toy was the only way I was able to teach Draco to give it up, though he isn't very possessive with toys when it comes to people, just dogs.

I knew a dog who would only release if you pushed on it's tongue, and the dog wanted to fetch, it would bring the ball back and present it to you, but the mouth was still attached. It was like a button and the dog was just waiting for the que which was pushing on it's tongue.

Is this becoming an issue to the point where you cannot physically remove the toy from her mouth? If so I would implement a nylon parting stick, it could help by making her feel less in control so she challenges you less.

E collar training for a behavior like this is dependent on the dog, for mine it would only worsen it, he would challenge me even more and would refuse to release. If you don't feel she is challenging you, it could be an effective fix.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

IME, teaching a dog to drop a toy is very easy with the right approach and patience. I've never had to resort to a break stick or an E collar to get a dog to willingly and quickly drop it's toy. I've trained it this way with toy possesive dogs, high prey drive dogs and even toy - handler aggressive dogs. Patience is a big part of teh equation and dog training is not a race it is a journey. It took two months to retrain my dog to drop a toy and not bite me when I picked it up,  The dog had been several handlers over toys prior to me. I taught the dog the two toy game, taught trust, built a bond and now a toy or chicken leg in his mouth is not a problem. 

My advice is go go positive and motivational, if it doesn't work you have lost nothing and have not done any damage. Have fun, teach your dog to have fun and be patient. In the long run you both are much better off.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Inga would not come to to me when coming ashore with a stick. Give It would not work. Bring it would not work. So I called to her to Come and Down with the stick. She lets me take the stick- problem solved.


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