# Is it true that most WL breeders shy away from producing naturally aggressive dogs?



## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Somebody told me that nowadays most working line breeders in the USA focus on more user friendly, bouncy, all around types of dogs to attract a wider range of clientele. Choosing to breed away from the raw aggression commonly seen in the breed decades ago. I'm not promoting either kind of temperament because I'm sure many were put down for that type of character. But I must say that 20-30 years ago it seemed like it was much easier to get that raw aggression in a dog that's rarely seen today (maybe that's just how I remembered things). Let's try to keep this civilized because I know I'm bound to get some of those "why would you ever want that kind of dog??!!" responses.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

I don't know if I would go as far as saying "most"... in my completely uneducated observation there are definite splits in WLs. It seems to me that in many ways "sports" dogs are becoming their own line. lol

I'm currently puppy shopping for a WL pup. I want less prey and more defense then what many breeders are striving for. It's tough. I'm picky. But there certainly are dogs out there that fit my criteria.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

No.its not true


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

voodoolamb said:


> I don't know if I would go as far as saying "most"... in my completely uneducated observation there are definite splits in WLs. It seems to me that in many ways "sports" dogs are becoming their own line. lol
> 
> I'm currently puppy shopping for a WL pup. I want less prey and more defense then what many breeders are striving for. It's tough. I'm picky. But there certainly are dogs out there that fit my criteria.


Take a look at Czech and DDR lines for a bit lower prey, higher defense.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

voodoolamb said:


> I don't know if I would go as far as saying "most"... in my completely uneducated observation there are definite splits in WLs. It seems to me that in many ways "sports" dogs are becoming their own line. lol
> 
> I'm currently puppy shopping for a WL pup.* I want less prey and more defense then what many breeders are striving for. It's tough. I'm picky. But there certainly are dogs out there that fit my criteria.*


I like this type too...but they are more challenging to work in obedience and protection. I want a balance of both prey and defense, a more serious dog, not one that is so high in prey drive that the thinking and threshold is compromised. . 
I have two that are more defensive in their natural drives. Prey is there, but not high. Both very high in threshold.

Even though, both are fairly social and stable, yet the aggression can be turned on and controlled easily because of the foundation we did(thanks to my club!). 
People don't always want to handle or work the defensive dog, and doing protection may mean waiting for the dog to mature a bit before tapping the defense. Not many helpers can easily work a dog like this to balance it out.
So, prey is what many want. Not sure if that means bouncy friendly?


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

It's pretty common. I'll ask about a stud and someone who knows pedigrees will tell me that might produce too much aggression and be difficult to sell in USA. Most people want a dog who is social and can go anywhere but rip up the sport field in their sport of choice. Some breeders are producing what I'd call brown border collies and have long waiting lists (this in malinois). Most people are not looking for hard aggression, they just don't want to deal with the liability, and don't know how to deal with a dog who carries that trait.

It's all about balance, though. Bid-ability and drive can go a long way, as can nerve strength. Still, it might be hard to find a buyer. 

Maybe the key is that there are more clubs and more people with real advanced dog experience in Europe. So "hard" dogs there fare better.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> I like this type too...but they are more challenging to work in obedience and protection. I want a balance of both prey and defense, a more serious dog, not one that is so high in prey drive that the thinking and threshold is compromised. .
> I have two that are more defensive in their natural drives. Prey is there, but not high. Both very high in threshold.
> 
> Even though, both are fairly social and stable, yet the aggression can be turned on and controlled easily because of the foundation we did(thanks to my club!).
> ...


Great point about the helper. It takes more skill to work with a more defensive dog. The helper has to work harder to shift the dog into prey to relieve stress. 

I saw it played out in the extreme many years ago with a sweet, wonderful love of a dog who just happened to be very civil. He wanted to work in all defense all the time. He seemed to enjoy it there. He was very safe with the helper (don't think my heart wasn't in my throat on a few long bites), always targeting the sleeve. I'm thinking now, in retrospect, that probably went to clear headedness.

A seminar trainer said he's the kind of dog that if he wants you and he gets you, he's going to kill you. *Keep him in prey*.

In his entire life, one helper had the skill set to get that dog into prey drive. He had quite good prey, he just didn't access it under stress. It was quite the show, but it finally happened and he was a better dog for it. His view of the helper changed after that.

I was offered a lot of money for that dog, but of course he was my baby. I never did title him. He suddenly developed gun shyness out of nowhere. It happens.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Will a dog with a high defense drive lose that defense drive with too much prey work. Or building prey drive to high assuming that the dog can access either easily.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

cdwoodcox said:


> Will a dog with a high defense drive lose that defense drive with too much prey work. Or building prey drive to high assuming that the dog can access either easily.


No. Defense drive arises from the dog's perceived need to protect himself. That doesn't go away. Nor does a dog get too tired or bored to access defense drive. However, defense is a stressful place for the dog to be. The bite gives him some relief. Shifting him into prey brings his stress levels down.

Prey is closely related to play. It's the same drive that propels a small puppy to chase a leaf that skitters by. Prey is fun. It's not stressful. However, prey drive is vulnerable to fatigue. A dog can be too tired to play. The sleeve is a prey prize to be won.

Ideally, a good helper will evaluate each individual dog and be able to achieve just the right balance of drives to get a good, hard, full, calm grip.

Which is why a good helper is worth his --or her weight in gold. And then some.


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

Julian G said:


> Somebody told me that nowadays most working line breeders in the USA focus on more user friendly, bouncy, all around types of dogs to attract a wider range of clientele. Choosing to breed away from the raw aggression commonly seen in the breed decades ago. I'm not promoting either kind of temperament because I'm sure many were put down for that type of character. But I must say that 20-30 years ago it seemed like it was much easier to get that raw aggression in a dog that's rarely seen today (maybe that's just how I remembered things). Let's try to keep this civilized because I know I'm bound to get some of those "why would you ever want that kind of dog??!!" responses.


These types of dogs are called "Real dogs" sometimes. I was told Nate Harvey (Sportwaffen K9) is one of the people that breed for these types of dogs. Whenever there is so much pride and money at stake in sports, people breed for that "type" and exaggerate certain traits at the expense of others. Balance is key....

My concern with civil dogs is that people who don't know enough might think bad nerves = civil. A dog that puts on a show and looks aggressive might just be insecure. I see it so many times people say "my dog is very protective of me"....NO, your dog has crappy nerves and is insecure. I'm specifically talking about a friend who keeps saying this.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

zetti said:


> No. Defense drive arises from the dog's perceived need to protect himself. That doesn't go away. Nor does a dog get too tired or bored to access defense drive. However, defense is a stressful place for the dog to be. The bite gives him some relief. Shifting him into prey brings his stress levels down.
> 
> Prey is closely related to play. It's the same drive that propels a small puppy to chase a leaf that skitters by. Prey is fun. It's not stressful. However, prey drive is vulnerable to fatigue. A dog can be too tired to play. The sleeve is a prey prize to be won.
> 
> ...


 I don't want to derail or hijack this thread so this will be my last question. If a dog has a strong full calm bite while in prey I assume that at some point they will still access the dogs defense drive. Or am I mistaken. Is it not needed in sport if the dog can do what is needed in prey


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

genetics are key....I think some helpers do not know how to read a dogs natural drive state and will throw in pressure too soon to get what they want. Which then creates a shaky foundation. What may look good early on, will implode after time.
Sometimes it is best to let a young dog just do no protection and mentally mature some than rush into getting what the helper thinks they want. 
I don't think a young defensive dog would ever lose the inherent natural drive due to building more prey, but a young dog that is naturally in prey that has been thrown into too much defense may suffer consequences that will need fixing.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

This forum is unusual in that a lot of people want a dog for IPO or protection, but the average pet owner just wants a dog to hang out with, do some activities and training. Dogs are going to be bred for buyers as well as for breed standards. I was looking at both SL and WL for a pet dog and found several breeders who intentionally breed for pet owners vs working owners.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

I trust my club and our handler I think they will do what is best. Just curious. Thanks


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> This forum is unusual in that a lot of people want a dog for IPO or protection, but the average pet owner just wants a dog to hang out with, do some activities and training. Dogs are going to be bred for buyers as well as for breed standards. I was looking at both SL and WL for a pet dog amdmfound several breeders who intentional breed for pet owners vs working owners.


I agree with pet owners just wanting a chill dog. If someone told me when I first got Athena that I would spend so much time and money getting into IPO I would have said dream on. However, having a dog that is harder and more driven pushed me into doing something. Just happens IPO is what we picked. Sometimes the right dog can influence an average pet owner into doing more than at home OB and chilling. Sometimes.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

onyx'girl said:


> I like this type too...but they are more challenging to work in obedience and protection. I want a balance of both prey and defense, a more serious dog, not one that is so high in prey drive that the thinking and threshold is compromised. .
> I have two that are more defensive in their natural drives. Prey is there, but not high. Both very high in threshold.
> 
> Even though, both are fairly social and stable, yet the aggression can be turned on and controlled easily because of the foundation we did(thanks to my club!).
> ...





voodoolamb said:


> I don't know if I would go as far as saying "most"... in my completely uneducated observation there are definite splits in WLs. It seems to me that in many ways "sports" dogs are becoming their own line. lol
> 
> I'm currently puppy shopping for a WL pup. I want less prey and more defense then what many breeders are striving for. It's tough. I'm picky. But there certainly are dogs out there that fit my criteria.


I'm the same way, when I look at working lines today I'm sorry but I don't like what I see. I see a dog who is happy-go-lucky and thinks biting a human is a game. The dog is almost smiling :grin2:. What about true offensive aggression? Were most of them just put down because people thought it was a fault? Growing up we had regular run of the mill GSDs who did not have a label on them, not show line, not working line, just pure beasts. Again, maybe this is just how I remember things and I could be wrong but I rarely see it today.



zetti said:


> No. Defense drive arises from the dog's perceived need to protect himself. That doesn't go away. Nor does a dog get too tired or bored to access defense drive. However, defense is a stressful place for the dog to be. The bite gives him some relief. Shifting him into prey brings his stress levels down.
> 
> Prey is closely related to play. It's the same drive that propels a small puppy to chase a leaf that skitters by. Prey is fun. It's not stressful. However, prey drive is vulnerable to fatigue. A dog can be too tired to play. The sleeve is a prey prize to be won.
> 
> ...


Does defensive drive arise from a dog's perceived need to protect their human? I would think that prey drive would be pretty useless in this regard?


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Hmmm.. Are the brown border collies the showline mals I'm seeing here locally? They now out number "WL" mals at the clubs.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

JulianG, I'm really beginning to think you don't know what you want or what you are really looking at when you see dogs work, and I don't mean that in a mean way. A truly offensive aggressive dog is one that most people couldn't handle. And in the wrong hands could possibly be a dangerous dog. This isn't your first time bringing this very same thing up. Do you have the training and experience to handle such a dog that you keep trying to find one?


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

onyx'girl said:


> genetics are key....I think some helpers do not know how to read a dogs natural drive state and will throw in pressure too soon to get what they want. Which then creates a shaky foundation. What may look good early on, will implode after time.
> Sometimes it is best to let a young dog just do no protection and mentally mature some than rush into getting what the helper thinks they want.
> I don't think a young defensive dog would ever lose the inherent natural drive due to building more prey, but a young dog that is naturally in prey that has been thrown into too much defense may suffer consequences that will need fixing.


I was looking at a famously hard, naturally aggressive dog who would try to chew through his fence and bulldoze his way into the house if he even sensed that a stranger was there. Then to find out that he rarely ever produced those kinds of offspring, his sibling were also a notch "calmer". They were still A+ quality but not quite his level of natural aggression. Sometimes it's just luck, Michael Jordan's kids are nowhere near his level of greatness, and none of his family members were ever above 6 feet tall. Genetics play a part, but maybe some form of trauma was put on the dog or human to get that sort of drive out of them?


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Deb said:


> JulianG, I'm really beginning to think you don't know what you want or what you are really looking at when you see dogs work, and I don't mean that in a mean way. A truly offensive aggressive dog is one that most people couldn't handle. And in the wrong hands could possibly be a dangerous dog. This isn't your first time bringing this very same thing up. Do you have the training and experience to handle such a dog that you keep trying to find one?


It's not what I want, it's what I need. I don't need a "sport" dog, (Removed by Moderator). Your concern is very appreciated though.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Controlled aggression. I would not want to breed a dog that is not discerning or balanced.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

You need to spend more time out there looking at dogs. Dogs with good strong aggression are out there. Just because a dog might be happy and social when in a neutral situation doesn't mean they are not serious when asked. IMO, the main problem is that most dogs with social aggression, dogs that look at the man as an opponent get bored and lose a bit of that edge. They learn over time that this is not a serious fight and, unless they really find the fight itself part of the fun, they become flat. This is where seeing dogs in person and in training tells you far more than sitting on a computer and watching videos. 

The grip is genetic. Dogs high in prey or high in fight with a good side of aggression are the dogs that bite well, fight while under pressure, out cleanly and go right into strong guarding. Defensive dogs that have learned to bite to relieve pressure will often get chewy or shallow and many can get vocal. I have a female that tilts more towards the defensive side who can get vocal under the stick hits. She has enough fight/social aggression and prey to want to stay and fight with the man and she LOVES protection work. A dog working totally in defense is not a dog biting or working out of a place of confidence. I used to train with a helper who was very talented at teaching defensive dogs how to relieve the pressure by biting the sleeve. It didn't change the nature of the dog. It just showed them that biting is how you make what worries you go away. Fight or flight. Not the type of dog I would want to count on in a real working situation and NOT a dog I would want to live with. The defensive dog is no better than the prey *****. Balance, prey, fight, aggression with some defense so the dog isn't totally stupid. 

I, personally, look first at the guarding. I want to see good aggressive guarding. Then I look at the grips, how the dog fights and how it handles the drives, stick hits and the lock up. Then the transition between biting to outing and guarding.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

onyx'girl said:


> controlled aggression. I would not want to breed a dog that is not discerning or balanced.


yes!!


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

cdwoodcox said:


> I agree with pet owners just wanting a chill dog. If someone told me when I first got Athena that I would spend so much time and money getting into IPO I would have said dream on. However, having a dog that is harder and more driven pushed me into doing something. Just happens IPO is what we picked. Sometimes the right dog can influence an average pet owner into doing more than at home OB and chilling. Sometimes.


I almost didn't post that because I didn't want to take it off topic, but I see a lot of GSDs with owners and most don't do much training, other than basic obedience, and no exercise except taking walks with their dogs. I ended up with a higher drive dog than I planned on because the breeder gently steered me toward one. She knew I would be bored with a less intense dog. But even my WL out of Czech and Belgian lines is not the kind of dog being asked about here.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Julian G said:


> It's not what I want, it's what I need. I don't need a "sport" dog, (Removed by Moderator) . Your concern is very appreciated though.


I missed that. What do you need the dog to do?


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

LuvShepherds said:


> I missed that. What do you need the dog to do?


I feel that dogs that work in prey will get scared (for lack of a better word) if any real serious pressure is put on them like in a real life situation.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

lhczth said:


> You need to spend more time out there looking at dogs. Dogs with good strong aggression are out there. Just because a dog might be happy and social when in a neutral situation doesn't mean they are not serious when asked. IMO, the main problem is that most dogs with social aggression, dogs that look at the man as an opponent get bored and lose a bit of that edge. They learn over time that this is not a serious fight and, unless they really find the fight itself part of the fun, they become flat. This is where seeing dogs in person and in training tells you far more than sitting on a computer and watching videos.
> 
> The grip is genetic. Dogs high in prey or high in fight with a good side of aggression are the dogs that bite well, fight while under pressure, out cleanly and go right into strong guarding. Defensive dogs that have learned to bite to relieve pressure will often get chewy or shallow and many can get vocal. I have a female that tilts more towards the defensive side who can get vocal under the stick hits. She has enough fight/social aggression and prey to want to stay and fight with the man and she LOVES protection work. A dog working totally in defense is not a dog biting or working out of a place of confidence. I used to train with a helper who was very talented at teaching defensive dogs how to relieve the pressure by biting the sleeve. It didn't change the nature of the dog. It just showed them that biting is how you make what worries you go away. Fight or flight. Not the type of dog I would want to count on in a real working situation and NOT a dog I would want to live with. The defensive dog is no better than the prey *****. Balance, prey, fight, aggression with some defense so the dog isn't totally stupid.
> 
> I, personally, look first at the guarding. I want to see good aggressive guarding. Then I look at the grips, how the dog fights and how it handles the drives, stick hits and the lock up. Then the transition between biting to outing and guarding.


I also look at object guarding to get the best sense of the dogs aggression level, so please don't assume I don't know what I'm talking about. I have looked at many breeders and only 1 or 2 had what I was looking for in a GSD, hence the topic of this thread.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Julian G said:


> It's not what I want, it's what I need. I don't need a "sport" dog, my love. Your concern is very appreciated though.


Needing one and being able to handle one are two separate things. Especially for the innocent people around you. What I don't understand is why you're looking at IPO dogs if you want a PPD dog. There are lots of breeders of PPD dogs who are breeding, training and selling PPD dogs and puppies in various levels of training. I know you said you couldn't afford a trained one and therefore wanted to train your own. But you're looking at dogs bred for IPO, why aren't you looking and talking to breeders and trainers of PPD dogs? Most people who 'need' a PPD dog can afford one.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Julian G said:


> I also look at object guarding to get the best sense of the dogs aggression level, so please don't assume I don't know what I'm talking about. I have looked at many breeders and only 1 or 2 had what I was looking for in a GSD, hence the topic of this thread.


curious to know the breeders/lines/pedigrees you are looking at? PM me if you don't want to share here, but this thread would be a good place to share dogs you think are worthy of the topic.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Lawyers.
Lawsuits.
Stupid People.
Insurance Companies.

Forced Euthanasia in event of a bite.
more lawsuits.
Crazy people
Bad ass dog = owner ego



Yea - there are many reasons raw aggression and even balanced civil aggression is not highly sought after by buyers and not bred by commercial breeders.



Lee


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Julian G said:


> The green dogs I wanted were starting at $5,500. Those "executive" level fully trained dogs can go up to $100k. European breeders regularly breed naturally aggressive dogs for $1,500 shipped. Keep diggin' Watson.


Well you must not be talking to the right people or aren't beiny taken seriously enough to talk to the right breeders in the US. Because those dogs are being produced here too. Keep digging Watson....
What happened to the KNPV Dutch Shepherd you had a deposit on? I'm sure that breeder if it didn't work out with would gladly steer you in the right direction.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Julian G said:


> They don't breed GSDs, the breeder specifically told me that he gave up on GSDs because they are no longer what they once were. I would gladly eat the deposit to find a KNPV mal in a GSD body.


So you still have the deposit on the dog, but will pull out for a gsd?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

lhczth said:


> You need to spend more time out there looking at dogs. Dogs with good strong aggression are out there. Just because a dog might be happy and social when in a neutral situation doesn't mean they are not serious when asked. IMO, the main problem is that most dogs with social aggression, dogs that look at the man as an opponent get bored and lose a bit of that edge. They learn over time that this is not a serious fight and, unless they really find the fight itself part of the fun, they become flat. This is where seeing dogs in person and in training tells you far more than sitting on a computer and watching videos.
> 
> The grip is genetic. Dogs high in prey or high in fight with a good side of aggression are the dogs that bite well, fight while under pressure, out cleanly and go right into strong guarding. Defensive dogs that have learned to bite to relieve pressure will often get chewy or shallow and many can get vocal. I have a female that tilts more towards the defensive side who can get vocal under the stick hits. She has enough fight/social aggression and prey to want to stay and fight with the man and she LOVES protection work. A dog working totally in defense is not a dog biting or working out of a place of confidence. I used to train with a helper who was very talented at teaching defensive dogs how to relieve the pressure by biting the sleeve. It didn't change the nature of the dog. It just showed them that biting is how you make what worries you go away. Fight or flight. Not the type of dog I would want to count on in a real working situation and NOT a dog I would want to live with. The defensive dog is no better than the prey *****. Balance, prey, fight, aggression with some defense so the dog isn't totally stupid.
> 
> I, personally, look first at the guarding. I want to see good aggressive guarding. Then I look at the grips, how the dog fights and how it handles the drives, stick hits and the lock up. Then the transition between biting to outing and guarding.



great post !

Julian G said in the opening of this thread " Choosing to breed away from the raw aggression commonly seen in the breed decades ago"

Sure this is possible , and was "decades ago" . 
There are swings or trends when certain studs attract attention and become popular to the breeders of the time . These studs may be bred to either directly or through second generation because they are in demand and make for easy sales .
You have buyers who have the dog to compensate for their own shortcomings.

You see a lot of newbies with one or two GSD experience jumping into breeding these "extreme" dogs - riding the wave . 

If you look to those that have longevity with the breed and breeding you won't see .
Stay the course . keep the balance . 

One dog that I can think of "decades" ago would have been Greif Lahntal and Sagus Busecker Schloss progeny. There were a lot of them. I saw a lot of them .
The aggression was sharp reactive in many cases. 


There will always be extremes . There will always be those that look to find them and those that are happy to provide them .


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

It sounds like the OP is looking for a high prey, high defense, dog with high fight drive. But then the dog would need to still be trained. 

Even the old junk yard dogs, or the 80's barn dogs (as I call them) were trained. Knowingly or not. Get a puppy the kids play with it a lot. But, once the newness wears off the dog is tied up out back. And almost forgot about. Sure the dog has bonded with the family as a pup but being out on the chain with almost no interaction except feedings and the occasional neighbor kid teasing the dog makes it mean. The kids could probably pet the dog. But not strangers.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

eddie1976E said:


> These types of dogs are called "Real dogs" sometimes. I was told Nate Harvey (Sportwaffen K9) is one of the people that breed for these types of dogs. Whenever there is so much pride and money at stake in sports, people breed for that "type" and exaggerate certain traits at the expense of others. Balance is key....
> 
> My concern with civil dogs is that people who don't know enough might think bad nerves = civil. A dog that puts on a show and looks aggressive might just be insecure. I see it so many times people say "my dog is very protective of me"....NO, your dog has crappy nerves and is insecure. I'm specifically talking about a friend who keeps saying this.


Yup. You're right. The fear biter would flee if he felt like he had a choice. Keyword being *felt*. 

If I had a dollar for every time a pet owner tried to tell me their weak nerved dog is being 'protective', I'd be typing this from my mansion.

The high defense dog is just wired that way. You'll see the difference in the quality of the grip and the dog's body language.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

cdwoodcox said:


> It sounds like the OP is looking for a high prey, high defense, dog with high fight drive. But then the dog would need to still be trained.
> 
> Even the old junk yard dogs, or the 80's barn dogs (as I call them) were trained. Knowingly or not. Get a puppy the kids play with it a lot. But, once the newness wears off the dog is tied up out back. And almost forgot about. Sure the dog has bonded with the family as a pup but being out on the chain with almost no interaction except feedings and the occasional neighbor kid teasing the dog makes it mean. The kids could probably pet the dog. But not strangers.


Just be back tied will create increased aggression through from frustration.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

*I removed some rather snarky posts. Please keep this discussion civil (and I mean that in the human way, "be nice) or it will be shut down.

Thank you,

ADMIN Lisa*


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

cloudpump said:


> So you still have the deposit on the dog, but will pull out for a gsd?


Correct, but the "right" gsd. 



carmspack said:


> great post !
> 
> Julian G said in the opening of this thread " Choosing to breed away from the raw aggression commonly seen in the breed decades ago"
> 
> ...


Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I guess. There is debate on whether true natural forward aggression is learned, created, or inborn. Check out this page, they do a better job of explaining it than I do. Then maybe an expert can chime in, rather than judge me for for wanting something that people here think is taboo.
Schutzhund Village


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

cdwoodcox said:


> It sounds like the OP is looking for a high prey, high defense, dog with high fight drive. But then the dog would need to still be trained.
> 
> Even the old junk yard dogs, or the 80's barn dogs (as I call them) were trained. Knowingly or not. Get a puppy the kids play with it a lot. But, once the newness wears off the dog is tied up out back. And almost forgot about. Sure the dog has bonded with the family as a pup but being out on the chain with almost no interaction except feedings and the occasional neighbor kid teasing the dog makes it mean. The kids could probably pet the dog. But not strangers.


Not so much prey, not so much defense, more high fight drive. Probably will have to be a naturally dominant dog.


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

Julian G said:


> Not so much prey, not so much defense, more high fight drive. Probably will have to be a naturally dominant dog.


So in this case, what would be the stimulus for the high fight drive to come out? I would imagine one would not want a dog that has high fight drive, low threshold and decides that if someone looks at it, it is the stimulus needed to go into fight drive. 

I like a dog with high defense drive that I can rely on and harness. Most people don't care about going out and bringing home trophies. But, I think most people that get a GSD want and expect a dog that can act to protect their families. I think a high defense dog with a solid bullet proof temperament is the ticket for that individual.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

IMO - true social or active aggression is genetic.

You can temper it or enhance it in training. My 1st female Kyra had it, but not high prey drive and extremely solid nerves, she went through the motions of the beginning of the IPO routine as an obedience exercise. She triggered into fight drive and aggression through the fight and stick hits....game on. Her progeny from Xito Maineiche were strong and had both prey and active aggression. Two were worked and titled - the female had to be taught to work in prey and the helper had a healthy respect for her even as a youngster, not wanting to be near her as in an obedience group LOL. The male was trained and titled in a club where active aggression was sought and trained accordingly. A third dog was LE for Vermont State Police. Next generation also carried a balance of active social aggression and prey. 4th generation has both, high fight drive, maybe more prey than I actually wanted (some behaviors identical to andcoming from sire). 

I believe there are 2 others here who have similar behaviors and genetic types - not same lines, but some of the genetic traits similar. Other differences in other characteristics. But stable dogs with both prey and social aggression genetically.


Lee


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Julian G said:


> Correct, but the "right" gsd.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Reading through the link with the various types of drives involved in aggression, add to this hunt drive, pack drive, temperament, thresholds, biddability, genetic obedience, and I'm sure there's more I'm missing, the breeding for balance looks extremely daunting.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Julian G said:


> Correct, but the "right" gsd.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Schutzhund village does a great job explaining drives and balance of drives. When I first started helper work, I was made to read a lot of their stuff as well as other books and articles. If I didn't do my reading, I didn't get to work dogs. I post their articles regularly for my group to read to help them understand what they are seeing as well. 

I don't think it's all that hard to find the right breeder to get the dog you need. It may not be the dog you want or think you need, but it will get the job done. I remember when I first started I wanted over the top aggression and have a bad ass dog. Just as Lee said. It's about ego. The more and more dogs I've worked the more I realized that a nice balanced dog is the one I prefer. My experience is coming from sport work, PPD work and LEK9's. I've worked a lot of dogs and seen every level and range of drives and thresholds. I have three different GSD's in my house. Everyone can tell you who my favorite is hahaha. You think these over the top aggressive dogs are easy to train? All I can say is I hope you like getting bit yourself. With dogs like this comes some blood. 

Kimber is very balanced. She is social. When she was younger, she was our social butterfly. Loves people, kids you name it. There is zero doubt in my mind she will engage for real. Every decoy who has worked her will tell you the same. Yet she's balanced. She's been super easy to train. 

My social butterfly at 15 months first time doing protection in muzzle. 





Some muzzle in here as well





And her doing a building search to passive decoy in hidden suit. 





And her with my friends kids who stayed with us for a week.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I like that last photo.....the dog I have with the most obvious social aggression is the one who loves and adores children...she sucks them in at the pet store so she can lean on them and be petted.....never around them, none in family or friends - but the instinct and balance shows right there....children are not a 'threat' and are to be cared for and allowed liberties no adult can have.


Lee


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

wolfstraum said:


> I like that last photo.....the dog I have with the most obvious social aggression is the one who loves and adores children...she sucks them in at the pet store so she can lean on them and be petted.....never around them, none in family or friends - but the instinct and balance shows right there....children are not a 'threat' and are to be cared for and allowed liberties no adult can have.
> 
> 
> Lee


Im just curious which one of your dogs has the obvious social aggression. Would like to read the pedigree.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Julian G said:


> Correct, but the "right" gsd.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


your words "natural forward aggression "

Natural means inherent . Bred-in-the-bone, not trained .

there was a thread with many lists of dogs that had genetic active aggression.
go back and study that .

a dog with active aggression may never telegraph this because they are so confident.
There is no savage , random behaviour . That is the kind the person who is compensating for shortcomings , (ego or other) wants . 

Personal protection dogs should come out of the active aggression pool . Confident , able to go anywhere , true power when truly needed .

don't understand why it would be taboo.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

carmspack said:


> your words "natural forward aggression "
> 
> Natural means inherent . Bred-in-the-bone, not trained .
> 
> ...


Yes! Truly strong dogs with inherent aggression are not bullies. Look at how many police K9s can be safely taken to public events, schools, etc. An ideal K9 prospect has plenty of natural forward aggression.

Far from being tabu, it should be a desirable trait in the GSD.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

mycobraracr said:


> Schutzhund village does a great job explaining drives and balance of drives. When I first started helper work, I was made to read a lot of their stuff as well as other books and articles. If I didn't do my reading, I didn't get to work dogs. I post their articles regularly for my group to read to help them understand what they are seeing as well.
> 
> I don't think it's all that hard to find the right breeder to get the dog you need. It may not be the dog you want or think you need, but it will get the job done. I remember when I first started I wanted over the top aggression and have a bad ass dog. Just as Lee said. It's about ego. The more and more dogs I've worked the more I realized that a nice balanced dog is the one I prefer. My experience is coming from sport work, PPD work and LEK9's. I've worked a lot of dogs and seen every level and range of drives and thresholds. I have three different GSD's in my house. Everyone can tell you who my favorite is hahaha. You think these over the top aggressive dogs are easy to train? All I can say is I hope you like getting bit yourself. With dogs like this comes some blood.
> 
> ...


I wonder if the missing element we're not discussing is clear headedness.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

zetti said:


> I wonder if the missing element we're not discussing is clear headedness.


I think that is and has been brought up. Who doesn't want a thinking dog when it comes to being assertive and one that carries fight drive. Clear headed is KEY when it comes to the type that Carmen, Lee and Jeremy are discussing.


Nigel said:


> Reading through the link with the various types of drives involved in aggression, add to this hunt drive, pack drive, temperament, thresholds, biddability, genetic obedience, and I'm sure there's more I'm missing, the breeding for balance looks extremely daunting.


That is why breeding is considered an art. It takes more than putting two well known names together for sure!


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Huh? There's plenty of aggression to be found in workinglines. The existence of high prey drive does not preclude real aggression. 
These dogs are social and bite in prey. Both are as real as a heart attack. You dont need an anti social dog to have that "realness".


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Julian G said:


> Im just curious which one of your dogs has the obvious social aggression. Would like to read the pedigree.


Csabre v Wolfstraum - now 13 years 4 months - and actually all the K progeny that have been worked have strong social aggression 

But - they all love kids! Just last week, I watched a yorkie snark and snap at Komet's legs LOL LOL and he basically gave it a sniff (and it snarked again! LOL) and walked away from it. The family kids love him too.


Lee


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Your reference to fight drive and the articles from Schutzhund Village clarified for me what you have been looking for. Dogs with high fight drive have always been rare. I will agree they are getting harder to find especially with balance and good nerves. 

The dam of my foundation bitch, Nike, came from a KNPV breeding program, vom Haus Ming. From those dogs I got social aggression (though not in all of my dogs), very high fight drive, very high hunt drive, clear heads, dogs suitable for many areas of work. Nike herself was a SchH1 and my PPD. The negatives, though, are dogs that love the fight and it doesn't always have to be the fight with the man. If you want to fight with them, they will gladly accommodate you. Not handler aggression, but a definite battle of wills. They are not always easy dogs to train or handle. Both Nike and Deja I had to watch as young dogs. Not because they were loose canons, but because they would stare at people or other dogs (no dog aggression, though, just very dominant), looking for weaknesses they could exploit. I LOVE this line of dogs coming down from Nike through Vala (who was the only one who wasn't a total butt head) and Deja to LB. They are not dogs for everyone and some of them, over the years, have been dogs I had to carefully place. Luckily not many, but a few here and there. As long as you are breeding for balance, when you get a more rank, high fight, socially aggressive dog they will be very stable. Just need a good handler. My other line coming down through Vala through Elena (who had a brother you would have liked) is a bit different. Social aggression, but much more into working with their people. 

BTW, I believe Ma Ming still breeds dogs in Holland. 

On the other hand..... I used to have a friend whose male was also out of a KNPV bred bitch. The dog was a total prey monster and even when crossed back into those lines, produced inconsistently and many unstable dogs. Some in the litter would be OK and others not so good. 

I remember when the KNPV Mals first started showing up in the states. I am guessing they weren't sending us the good ones. These dogs were dangerous especially in the wrong hands. Very short fuses, very willing to bite. There are still some KNPV Mals coming here like this and it seems like many end up in the wrong hands.

I couple of pictures of Nike with my nephew.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

lhczth said:


> Your reference to fight drive and the articles from Schutzhund Village clarified for me what you have been looking for. Dogs with high fight drive have always been rare. I will agree they are getting harder to find especially with balance and good nerves.
> 
> The dam of my foundation bitch, Nike, came from a KNPV breeding program, vom Haus Ming. From those dogs I got social aggression (though not in all of my dogs), very high fight drive, very high hunt drive, clear heads, dogs suitable for many areas of work. Nike herself was a SchH1 and my PPD. The negatives, though, are dogs that love the fight and it doesn't always have to be the fight with the man. If you want to fight with them, they will gladly accommodate you. Not handler aggression, but a definite battle of wills. They are not always easy dogs to train or handle. Both Nike and Deja I had to watch as young dogs. Not because they were loose canons, but because they would stare at people or other dogs (no dog aggression, though, just very dominant), looking for weaknesses they could exploit. I LOVE this line of dogs coming down from Nike through Vala (who was the only one who wasn't a total butt head) and Deja to LB. They are not dogs for everyone and some of them, over the years, have been dogs I had to carefully place. Luckily not many, but a few here and there. As long as you are breeding for balance, when you get a more rank, high fight, socially aggressive dog they will be very stable. Just need a good handler. My other line coming down through Vala through Elena (who had a brother you would have liked) is a bit different. Social aggression, but much more into working with their people.
> 
> ...


Somebody referred me to haus ming, but also said they themselves would never get that kind of dog.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Julian G said:


> I feel that dogs that work in prey will get scared (for lack of a better word) if any real serious pressure is put on them like in a real life situation.


I can show you a couple that will handle real pressure and be happy to bite you in a real situation. They aren't scared and they aren't concerned about you or the pressure you try to put on them. Both have many real bites. One is a GSD and one is a DS. There are plenty like this. I can show you a nasty picture of my stomach from last Thursday testing dogs where a highly prey driven dog bit me while having_ fun._. Fun for him, for me....not so much. It all hurts, getting bit in prey or defense. 

You really need to learn the difference and defense is not all it's cracked up to be. I'll take a happy prey driven dog with high fight drive over a highly defensive dog any day. The overly defensive dogs are often the first to fold like a lawn chair under serious real pressure, especially in a real situation.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Slamdunc said:


> I can show you a couple that will handle real pressure and be happy to bite you in a real situation. They aren't scared and they aren't concerned about you or the pressure you try to put on them. Both have many real bites. One is a GSD and one is a DS. There are plenty like this. I can show you a nasty picture of my stomach from last Thursday testing dogs where a highly prey driven dog bit me while having_ fun._. Fun for him, for me....not so much. It all hurts, getting bit in prey or defense.
> 
> You really need to learn the difference and defense is not all it's cracked up to be. I'll take a happy prey driven dog with high fight drive over a highly defensive dog any day. The overly defensive dogs are often the first to fold like a lawn chair under serious real pressure, especially in a real situation.


Yeah, then no defense. Prey with high fight drive.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Julian G said:


> Yeah, then no defense. Prey with high fight drive.


Julian, you need to stop and really assess your needs and then look for a dog that is suitable. One size does not fit all. High prey drive may be suitable for what is required of a K9 but it might not be your best choice if you are looking for a PPD.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Julian G said:


> Yeah, then no defense. Prey with high fight drive.


Again - defense is different than social aggression.


I was at a seminar some time ago. A guy brought in a well bred imported female......3 times the first day, I watched this poor poor dog try to hide behind her owner, literally squeeze between him and the WALL to avoid even having a stranger a few feet away....this dog was push and pushed and pressured to confront the helper....the dog was terrified...but finally, it barked! It was praised and praised, and the procedure started again....finally they got this poor dog to bark. For 3 days, they "worked" this dog until she would bark and go a step forward as the decoy backed up....but the dog kept trying to hide. Once you see this type of behavior turned into aggression, you will understand the difference between defense and active aggression. IMO, if that dog has to be backed into a corner to bark, it has no business on the field, and even less being bred. But that was the goal of the owner....to have puppies.


Lee


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Julian G said:


> Yeah, then no defense. Prey with high fight drive.


You'd do better with a balanced clear headed dog. If you are just starting out, get a dog that you can handle. Experience goes way further than online information. Can't read it.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

wolfstraum said:


> IMO, if that dog has to be backed into a corner to bark, it has no business on the field, and even less being bred. But that was the goal of the owner....to have puppies.
> 
> 
> Lee



:thumbup:


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

Slamdunc said:


> I can show you a couple that will handle real pressure and be happy to bite you in a real situation. They aren't scared and they aren't concerned about you or the pressure you try to put on them. Both have many real bites. One is a GSD and one is a DS. There are plenty like this. I can show you a nasty picture of my stomach from last Thursday testing dogs where a highly prey driven dog bit me while having_ fun._. Fun for him, for me....not so much. It all hurts, getting bit in prey or defense. J
> 
> You really need to learn the difference and defense is not all it's cracked up to be. I'll take a happy prey driven dog with high fight drive over a highly defensive dog any day. The overly defensive dogs are often the first to fold like a lawn chair under serious real pressure, especially in a real situation.


I can vouch for this. My all defense, all the time dog was not a strong dog. Under the pressure of a real life threat, I would expect him to fall apart.

He put on an impressive show on the Sch field, a controlled and predictable environment. 

Those people who were willing to pay big money for him were not knowledgeable about temperament and got sucked in by the defensive display he put on with the helper--someone he knew well and trusted.

Of course, he wasn't for sale, he was my baby. My motivation for putting him in Sch in the first place was confidence building. Also, because he did have aggression and high defense, my goal was to teach him the correct way to channel his aggression and to balance his drives.

All that and he absolutely loved the sport. He was a superb tracker and loved obed.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

wolfstraum said:


> Again - defense is different than social aggression.
> 
> 
> I was at a seminar some time ago. A guy brought in a well bred imported female......3 times the first day, I watched this poor poor dog try to hide behind her owner, literally squeeze between him and the WALL to avoid even having a stranger a few feet away....this dog was push and pushed and pressured to confront the helper....the dog was terrified...but finally, it barked! It was praised and praised, and the procedure started again....finally they got this poor dog to bark. For 3 days, they "worked" this dog until she would bark and go a step forward as the decoy backed up....but the dog kept trying to hide. Once you see this type of behavior turned into aggression, you will understand the difference between defense and active aggression. IMO, if that dog has to be backed into a corner to bark, it has no business on the field, and even less being bred. But that was the goal of the owner....to have puppies.
> ...


And that "trainer" has no business giving seminars.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

What is social aggression exactly?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

zetti said:


> And that "trainer" has no business giving seminars.


The dog training business is no different than any other - people have to make a living....and people who need help fixing dogs pay their bills. So so many dogs would not be titled and bred if it were not for trainers who can 'fix' dogs like these. Why do you think so many big kennels send dogs to Germany to be titled? Dog breeding, sales of puppies (especially those big black and red to be puppies!), competition goals - all these people will pay for help to get their titles...I have seen similar situations with many trainers at seminars - not as extreme as the one I cited - and if you had seen the 6th session without the 1st -5th, you would not have realized how bad the dog truly was....I know a titled female who has had several litters who is very drivy, but so nervy it is shocking (first hand observation)....Unless the right triggers are hit, you cannot know how bad the nerves are....owners want $$$ from puppies - so titles are mickey moused and pups being put in working homes. Some have ok nerves - but genetics are still there!!!! 

It is not just this one trainer - owner came to him for help and paid for it. As do most to some degree or other.....so Good luck when you buy a puppy - you just don't know what the parents are truly like....dogs can win National level events and still be nerve bags with the right trainer!!! Has happened.

Lee


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

zetti said:


> I can vouch for this. My all defense, all the time dog was not a strong dog. Under the pressure of a real life threat, I would expect him to fall apart.
> 
> He put on an impressive show on the Sch field, a controlled and predictable environment.
> 
> ...


Well, I wasn't really looking for defense, was looking for offense, and not so much looking as trying to see if it's still out there. Maybe some of it mixed into all the things described that makes a better dog (clear headed, good with kids, stuff like that).


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

wolfstraum said:


> Again - defense is different than social aggression.
> 
> 
> I was at a seminar some time ago. A guy brought in a well bred imported female......3 times the first day, I watched this poor poor dog try to hide behind her owner, literally squeeze between him and the WALL to avoid even having a stranger a few feet away....this dog was push and pushed and pressured to confront the helper....the dog was terrified...but finally, it barked! It was praised and praised, and the procedure started again....finally they got this poor dog to bark. For 3 days, they "worked" this dog until she would bark and go a step forward as the decoy backed up....but the dog kept trying to hide. Once you see this type of behavior turned into aggression, you will understand the difference between defense and active aggression. IMO, if that dog has to be backed into a corner to bark, it has no business on the field, and even less being bred. But that was the goal of the owner....to have puppies.
> ...


Yup, I believe I know the dog and handler that you are referring too. The handler sent me videos of the 3 days of "working" his dog a the seminar. I'll give the decoys some credit, they worked hard and tried everything they could to "fix" a problem at a seminar. I think they felt some need or responsibility as the handler paid for the seminar. I watched every session as the owner wanted my input on his dog and training. Honestly, you are correct the dog had no business being there and it should have ended at day one. I didn't see any need to put a dog through that. You have what you have and that dog did not have the right temperament, nerves or confidence for bite work. Unfortunately, the handler was taken advantage of by a "broker, breeder, importer" that is "preserving the old Czech lines" and saving the breed. :surprise: Novices buy into all the hype and "old lines" and defense is great and prey is ruining the breed nonsense. Then you see dogs bred like that one at the seminar....... Balance is what we need with strong nerves and good temperaments.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

wolfstraum said:


> Again - defense is different than social aggression.
> 
> 
> I was at a seminar some time ago. A guy brought in a well bred imported female......3 times the first day, I watched this poor poor dog try to hide behind her owner, literally squeeze between him and the WALL to avoid even having a stranger a few feet away....this dog was push and pushed and pressured to confront the helper....the dog was terrified...but finally, it barked! It was praised and praised, and the procedure started again....finally they got this poor dog to bark. For 3 days, they "worked" this dog until she would bark and go a step forward as the decoy backed up....but the dog kept trying to hide. Once you see this type of behavior turned into aggression, you will understand the difference between defense and active aggression. IMO, if that dog has to be backed into a corner to bark, it has no business on the field, and even less being bred. But that was the goal of the owner....to have puppies.
> ...


This is the type of dog I described in an early post. The dogs that are taught to channel their defense, their fear, into biting, into fight over flight. Flight is not an option. They learn that when I feel pressured, when I feel unsure, when I feel afraid, if I bite the bad things go away. A very dangerous situation. 

Dogs need defense or they will have no self preservation, but in too high a doses, they become useless as a working dog.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

zetti said:


> I can vouch for this. My all defense, all the time dog was not a strong dog. Under the pressure of a real life threat, I would expect him to fall apart.
> 
> He put on an impressive show on the Sch field, a controlled and predictable environment.
> 
> ...


Were you able to title this dog?


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> What is social aggression exactly?


From my understanding, the best way I can describe it is to compare it to defensive aggression. Defensive aggression is when the dog perceives a threat, and does things to avoid the threat like staring or barking or biting, this is also called reactive aggression (dog reacts to a threat with aggression. ) Social aggression is when the dog acts as the threat, wanting to dominate or attack dogs or even people that he sees as a rival. Can be a rival for territory, food, or the opportunity to mate or even for the heck of it just to show who's boss. Also called active aggression.

I personally think active aggression is very rare, I sort of see it as being the last bit of "wildness" left in dogs after they have been domesticated. And once it's gone, it's gone. I even hear stories of breeders culling pups because they just show way too much aggression at such an early age.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

wolfstraum said:


> The dog training business is no different than any other - people have to make a living....and people who need help fixing dogs pay their bills. So so many dogs would not be titled and bred if it were not for trainers who can 'fix' dogs like these. Why do you think so many big kennels send dogs to Germany to be titled? Dog breeding, sales of puppies (especially those big black and red to be puppies!), competition goals - all these people will pay for help to get their titles...I have seen similar situations with many trainers at seminars - not as extreme as the one I cited - and if you had seen the 6th session without the 1st -5th, you would not have realized how bad the dog truly was....


I was at a seminar a few years ago where the owner wanted her daughter's dog worked on the table, to "give her confidence" and "teach her how to bite". The dog was scared to death. Could barely get her into the building. They put her on the table and she went into avoidance. Ignore the helper, looking to "mom" to save her. Finally the helper reached over and pinched her. She still tried to ignore him, but finally was pushed into snapping. The helper went away. How this progressed, I don't know. I had to walk away. The owner, who was young, looked horrified. How can anyone put a dog through this just so they can work them? :frown2:

BTW, I have nothing against good table work.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

lhczth said:


> I was at a seminar a few years ago where the owner wanted her daughter's dog worked on the table, to "give her confidence" and "teach her how to bite". The dog was scared to death. Could barely get her into the building. They put her on the table and she went into avoidance. Ignore the helper, looking to "mom" to save her. Finally the helper reached over and pinched her. She still tried to ignore him, but finally was pushed into snapping. The helper went away. How this progressed, I don't know. I had to walk away. The owner, who was young, looked horrified. How can anyone put a dog through this just so they can work them? :frown2:
> 
> BTW, I have nothing against good table work.



Because if the owner won't wash the dog, then you have to get something out of the dog before you can take it off. 

I personally really like table work when done correctly. That being said, I have walked away and another decoy worked a dog because it was doing the same thing you described. I told the owner that if I had to go to extreme measures to get their dog to bite/work then it was the wrong dog. Unfortunately others feel they can turn any dog into a PPD. There are too many good dogs out there to waste time on the bad ones.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Julian G said:


> Well, I wasn't really looking for defense, was looking for offense, and not so much looking as trying to see if it's still out there. Maybe some of it mixed into all the things described that makes a better dog (clear headed, good with kids, stuff like that).


I guess my question is what are you really looking for? what do you want / need a dog for? I'm a little confused by what you are looking for? 

My next question is: can you handle a strong dog with serious aggression? A very legit question. Do you have experience working, handling and owning an aggressive dog. If you start contacting breeders and telling them that you want an aggressive dog, or a defensive dog or a dog with active aggression you will find that many have the perfect dog for you. :wink2:

There are plenty of breeders that claim to have the exact the dog you want, like the weak nerved dog discussed above at the seminar. That dog was sold as the greatest, strongest, defensive dog from the best lines , blah blah blah. I've seen a few from that GSD manufacturer and have not been very impressed. 

Perhaps, you have already described what you want, need or like? I haven't read every post on this thread. I can assure you that owning a dog like you have described takes work, management, hyper vigilance and a strong handler. I will also tell you that when someone says "this dog needs a strong handler" there are probably issues that they are not telling you about. Or "this dog is a one person dog!" These can be red flags or clues as well. 

I hope you figure out what you want, because right now you are "prey" for the "overly defensive breeders" that look for novices like you. That is where they make their money. "Overly defensive" is what the breeder becomes when you go back and say my dog is hiding under my bed in a storm or is afraid of strangers. It will be all your fault and you will have ruined their "super uber" dog. Good luck


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

lhczth said:


> I was at a seminar a few years ago where the owner wanted her daughter's dog worked on the table, to "give her confidence" and "teach her how to bite". The dog was scared to death. Could barely get her into the building. They put her on the table and she went into avoidance. Ignore the helper, looking to "mom" to save her. Finally the helper reached over and pinched her. She still tried to ignore him, but finally was pushed into snapping. The helper went away. How this progressed, I don't know. I had to walk away. The owner, who was young, looked horrified. How can anyone put a dog through this just so they can work them? :frown2:
> 
> BTW, I have nothing against good table work.


Here is a dog that was brought to me for some help in training. I passed on this dog when I tested him for patrol work. I think this dog would do well as a single purpose detection dog, not a patrol dog. I put the dog on the table to bring out some confidence and work the dog a little. The video shows the range of drives the dog went through from avoidance initially then prey and defense. If this video was edited to only show the defense some novice folks would think this dog was a real bad ass. My goal was to build this dog up and help him along. It was only one 10 minute session. I brought the dog up in drive and made him more comfortable. Again, this is not one of our dogs or a dog that I would select as a patrol dog. I was just doing a favor for the vendor to help him with this dog. 







My point in posting this video is for folks to see the behavior changes in the dog. Try to figure out what the dog is thinking, what drive the dog is in and see the dog respond. Read the body of the dog. If you think defense is so great, there are folks that will edit a video like this and show you a dog in defense as being super strong. Be very careful.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

lhczth said:


> Were you able to title this dog?


Unfortunately, no. Out of nowhere, he suddenly became gunshy of all things. He would have held his down and kept on working, but the body language was there.

I retired him to playing hide and seek and tracking games.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

Slamdunc said:


> Here is a dog that was brought to me for some help in training. I passed on this dog when I tested him for patrol work. I think this dog would do well as a single purpose detection dog, not a patrol dog. I put the dog on the table to bring out some confidence and work the dog a little. The video shows the range of drives the dog went through from avoidance initially then prey and defense. If this video was edited to only show the defense some novice folks would think this dog was a real bad ass. My goal was to build this dog up and help him along. It was only one 10 minute session. I brought the dog up in drive and made him more comfortable. Again, this is not one of our dogs or a dog that I would select as a patrol dog. I was just doing a favor for the vendor to help him with this dog.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQWJvB7rK2o
> 
> ...


Ok, tell me if I'm reading this all wrong. I didn't perceive this dog as especially strong at all. My club mates have stronger dogs. 

Even at the height of his bad assery, he didn't look that confident to me or forward.

I'm glad you said you wouldn't use him for a patrol dog. Next question--can you make a good dope dog out of him? I'm thinking of his total indifference to the tug at the beginning of the video.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Slamdunc said:


> Yup, I believe I know the dog and handler that you are referring too. The handler sent me videos of the 3 days of "working" his dog a the seminar. I'll give the decoys some credit, they worked hard and tried everything they could to "fix" a problem at a seminar. I think they felt some need or responsibility as the handler paid for the seminar. I watched every session as the owner wanted my input on his dog and training. Honestly, you are correct the dog had no business being there and it should have ended at day one. I didn't see any need to put a dog through that. You have what you have and that dog did not have the right temperament, nerves or confidence for bite work. Unfortunately, the handler was taken advantage of by a "broker, breeder, importer" that is "preserving the old Czech lines" and saving the breed. :surprise: Novices buy into all the hype and "old lines" and defense is great and prey is ruining the breed nonsense. Then you see dogs bred like that one at the seminar....... Balance is what we need with strong nerves and good temperaments.


Sorry - nope not the dog - the info you cite is enough for me to know it is not. Dog imported directly from breeder, not broker etc. But like I said - NOT uncommon situation.

Lee


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

@Zetti,
You are correct. No, I do not think this is a strong dog. I think the fog was just imported and kinda out of sorts. Perhaps, with the right training, right handler the fog could be a mediocre patrol dog at best, IMHO. Not enough for me and I can find a stronger dog that would not require all the time and work. 

I'm sure this dog was sold to a small PD that didn't have the experience to properly evaluate dogs. 

The tug is a non issue. I was trying to find a "comfort zone" for the dog, so I tried the tug. It didn't work but the sleeve brought enough out to start. I do think the dog could make a functional detection dog. Not a Patrol dog for my liking.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

Disclaimer: not picking on Slamdunc! I like him. I went back to re-read previous posts because I couldn't for the life of me figure out if the dog's name was "fog" or what the heck fog had to do with working the dog. Oh wait... duh.... autocorrect strikes again maybe? 

I'm still unsure as to what the OP is really looking for.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Galathiel said:


> Disclaimer: not picking on Slamdunc! I like him. I went back to re-read previous posts because I couldn't for the life of me figure out if the dog's name was "fog" or what the heck fog had to do with working the dog. Oh wait... duh.... autocorrect strikes again maybe?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yup, darn iPhone auto correct. Took 20 tries to post my response. Dog, darn it, dog not fog. Grrr. Thought I caught all the "fogs".


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

@Slamdunc I thought that dog was going to nail you right at the very beginning :surprise:


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> @Slamdunc I thought that dog was going to nail you right at the very beginning


Ahh, that's where trading the fog and experience comes in. There was a moment when I went to pet him after the agitation I thought he might've bit me. 

I've been bitten several times working dogs on the table. It's part of the job. : )


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Slamdunc said:


> Thecowboysgirl said:
> 
> 
> > @Slamdunc I thought that dog was going to nail you right at the very beginning
> ...


Darn it. Training not trading and dog not fog. Grrr. I don't know how to edit posts from my phone.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

For a detection dog, when I was looking at working wildlife scat detection work, they said they want a dog who is so crazy for a ball, they will sit for 8 hours fixated on the cupboard where the ball was put away. And a dog who will play crazy fetch for an hour straight with no let up in drive.

From this, I got the impression a detection dog needs to be absolutely toy crazy. 

I'm sorry to get off topic, but I watched the GSD video SlamDunc posted and didn't see that crazy tug-ball-toy drive I thought you needed in a detection dog? Again, this is off of just one organization's evaluation process... and they didn't mention hunt drive when I talked to them, or environmental nerves, surface, etc etc. I guess if a dog is that crazy for a toy, maybe that doesn't matter? The drive over-rides it all? 

Just curious.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Slamdunc said:


> Darn it. Training not trading and dog not fog. Grrr. I don't know how to edit posts from my phone.


Hahah... You should have figured out how to make "trading the fog" into a new training term. It has potential. For instance.... you were helping the dog trade the fog for more confidence... and then voila... he won't bite you. Sorry, I just found this funny.>


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I also thought "trading the fog" should be saved for future use...

sounds a little like new age poetry...

My old dog who has crossed now got a new name from Autocorrect. We called him Joey the Dingo....autocorrect changed it to Joey Diego. And that became his alter-ego's name for when he killed stuff...

we had an encounter with the notorious killer Joey Diego.

For the record this is the dog that got me out of pure positive training and I did take control of what he killed after some practice...then used him to control predators on my farm, it was useful, and he killed what I told him to.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

Muskeg said:


> For a detection dog, when I was looking at working wildlife scat detection work, they said they want a dog who is so crazy for a ball, they will sit for 8 hours fixated on the cupboard where the ball was put away. And a dog who will play crazy fetch for an hour straight with no let up in drive.
> 
> From this, I got the impression a detection dog needs to be absolutely toy crazy.
> 
> ...


Detection dogs need solid nerves. They have to be move out and work away from daddy or mommy, that takes confidence.

As you mentioned, they also have to go over all kinds of different surfaces, be in strange environments, etc. A weak dog can fall out of drive under stress.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

Muskeg said:


> For a detection dog, when I was looking at working wildlife scat detection work, they said they want a dog who is so crazy for a ball, they will sit for 8 hours fixated on the cupboard where the ball was put away. And a dog who will play crazy fetch for an hour straight with no let up in drive.
> 
> From this, I got the impression a detection dog needs to be absolutely toy crazy.
> 
> ...


Honestly, a weak nerved GSD serves no real purpose, when you think about it. They're not much fun even as pets.

Von Stephanitz wrote harshly about shy GSDs--the one thing that absolutely had to be avoided.

I don't find fear aggression any more desirable.

I can't think of any line of work that doesn't require a dog with sound nerves.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Julian, you need practical experience with " working" dogs to be able to raise or even train the type dog you claim you want. Furthermore, once you get this " type" dog, have the trainers/decoys I know today will not develop the dog to much more than marginal degree. As others have said, get a strong balanced dog and train him into what you need.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Muskeg said:


> For a detection dog, when I was looking at working wildlife scat detection work, they said they want a dog who is so crazy for a ball, they will sit for 8 hours fixated on the cupboard where the ball was put away. And a dog who will play crazy fetch for an hour straight with no let up in drive.
> 
> From this, I got the impression a detection dog needs to be absolutely toy crazy.
> 
> ...


You are seeing the dog out of his element and on the table for the first time. The dog was very uncomfortable and that is not unusual for the first time on the table. I'm ok with that reaction to start with most dogs. 

Yes, a detection dog should have high prey, toy and hunt drive. This dog had nice prey drive and hunt drive. We tested that first the week before. Prey, hunt and toy drive were not an issue. This dog did not pass the civil agitation phase of the testing and would not engage me "for real." 

Toy drive, hunt, prey drive, environmental sureness, willing to work on slick surfaces, grating, etc are all important. IME, a dog does not have "to stare at a cupboard for 8 hrs for a toy" to be an excellent drug dog. Few dogs will play crazy fetch for an hour, most will gas out. I like high drive dogs for detection work, but I can deal with a dog with nice drive, desire to please and willing to work for a toy.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Thank Jim, that is what I thought. Makes sense to me.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

How do you live with a dog who will stare at a cupboard for 8 hours after a toy? Does this type of dog just live in a kennel when they are not working? Sounds neurotic to me


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

I was watching the dogs at club yesterday including Athena. These are all high prey dogs with defense that can be utilized if need be. All of the dogs who have these qualities I would bet could be trained in PP. None are aggressive, all well mannered, and all have an off switch. But all have this kind of attitude when out there. 
As for me personally. I wouldn't want a dog any more high drive or determined than Athena right now. I quit training daily bleeding. 
OP did you ever specify what you wanted to do with this dog. PP, no training just a dog that would naturally protect.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I know, Cowboy- the dog does literally sound like it would be a least a bit neurotic. Here are the details (and sorry to derail, can post this somewhere else if needed). 

"Dog screening information

As you may know, we rescue and adopt ball obsessed dogs and train them to become detection dogs. The data our dogs locate is critical in making informed conservation decisions. This method, although not new, is still gaining traction and this means adopting only extremely ball driven, high energy dogs. For example, a dog that is high energy and playful but not obsessed with playing fetch 12 hours a day is not right for this line of work. 

Our screening process looks for this “extreme ball obsession." Does your dog stare at the place where you’ve hidden the ball for 8+ hours? Does your dog not let go of the ball when he/she knows playtime is up? Do your dog’s eyes dilate when they see the ball? Will your dog play to exhaustion because they love the ball SO much? Does your dog have trouble bonding with people because all they care about is the ball? If you answered yes to any of these questions, and maybe yes to all of them, then your dog might be a good candidate!"


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Besides staring at the cupboard for 8+ hours and not bonding. Aren't these traits normal for most high drive dogs.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Muskeg said:


> I know, Cowboy- the dog does literally sound like it would be a least a bit neurotic. Here are the details (and sorry to derail, can post this somewhere else if needed).
> 
> "Dog screening information
> 
> ...


Honestly all except staring at the cupboard, me female GSD has. My sense is that if she had not been so active she could ahve been quite a bit more neurotic than she is.

I am not sure what that bonding statement really means. My girl's idea of bonding with someone is soliciting them to throw the ball (which I never allowed because she thinks intercepting it as it leaves your hand is funny, she is lightning fast and has no problem drawing blood) she is a bitey bozo so I don't let anyone outside our immediate family play with her with toys. 

Put the toys away and she is gentle and friendly with everyone


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> How do you live with a dog who will stare at a cupboard for 8 hours after a toy? Does this type of dog just live in a kennel when they are not working? Sounds neurotic to me


Sounds like a Mal to me :wink2: j/k. The Mal would tear the cabinet from the wall.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Slamdunc said:


> I guess my question is what are you really looking for? what do you want / need a dog for? I'm a little confused by what you are looking for?
> 
> My next question is: can you handle a strong dog with serious aggression? A very legit question. Do you have experience working, handling and owning an aggressive dog. If you start contacting breeders and telling them that you want an aggressive dog, or a defensive dog or a dog with active aggression you will find that many have the perfect dog for you. :wink2:
> 
> ...


I look at some of the recommendations you guys make, and I see some of the dogs at local IPO clubs that are great dogs and maybe one or two had what I'm looking for and I think "wow, we had more dominant dogs than that growing up, my grandpa had basically a lion in dogs clothing". He got him from some hidden country road hillbilly way out in the sticks many years ago, probably long gone and swallowed by weeds by now. So yea, we have had strong dogs and at least that one had serious aggression and I know when I see it, maybe I don't have all the encyclopedic terms down like you guys:wink2:. I never once here claimed that I was an expert dog handler, but I'm in no way a novice, have the scars to prove it. Thanks for your concern about scam breeders but I already know, which is why I haven't bit the bullet just yet. I'm not as dumb as you think sir.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Slamdunc said:


> Here is a dog that was brought to me for some help in training. I passed on this dog when I tested him for patrol work. I think this dog would do well as a single purpose detection dog, not a patrol dog. I put the dog on the table to bring out some confidence and work the dog a little. The video shows the range of drives the dog went through from avoidance initially then prey and defense. If this video was edited to only show the defense some novice folks would think this dog was a real bad ass. My goal was to build this dog up and help him along. It was only one 10 minute session. I brought the dog up in drive and made him more comfortable. Again, this is not one of our dogs or a dog that I would select as a patrol dog. I was just doing a favor for the vendor to help him with this dog.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQWJvB7rK2o
> 
> ...


I see a nice family pet there. Would never trust that dog with the safety of me or my family. Actually, I would probably be the one trying to protect that dog, he looks so cute:smile2:


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

cdwoodcox said:


> Besides staring at the cupboard for 8+ hours and not bonding. Aren't these traits normal for most high drive dogs.


I would consider that extreme. There are lots of good, high drive GSDs you can live with. They have the genetic ability to cap their drives--a highly desirable trait. Personally, I want a dog with a factory installed off switch as well as good drive.

If you need extreme drive for a particular job, why not just go with a Mal?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I love how that dog was handled . 

I don't like him . 
Let me explain a bit on this. 
I don't like him as a prospect for work . Good pet with some extra benefits - Yes.
Working not so much . There doesn't seem to be any resilience , ability to handle pressure ,
and we don't know what his mind set would be in a chaotic situation or with someone loudly making
sounds as if they were passing a ginormous kidney stone. 

I have my doubts for sport even.

I'd be interested on your thoughts whether this dog is a good sport candidate .

The dog finds a comfort zone with a bit of tug work. He does not show possession. The entire expression is
that he would rather not be there . You see a lot of the dogs essence in the periods between the activity.
You can see more of a dog when training and conditioning is not called on . 
this dog doesn't perk up when the pressure is off . 

This dog is inhibited. Withdraws , tries to disappear , no eye contact , no forward social energy . 
He reacts . He does not push the decoy . He does not ask for more . 

I wouldn't have him as a detection dog because there is no fire in the belly . I think he would go flat quickly.

They decoy was very respectful of the dog and his capacity for pressure . I like the quiet way he was worked .
The dog wasn't broken for the sake of making a point .


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

zetti said:


> I would consider that extreme. There are lots of good, high drive GSDs you can live with. They have the genetic ability to cap their drives--a highly desirable trait. Personally, I want a dog with a factory installed off switch as well as good drive.
> 
> If you need extreme drive for a particular job, why not just go with a Mal?


Muskeg posted " Does your dog not let go of the ball when he/she knows playtime is up? Do your dog’s eyes dilate when they see the ball? Will your dog play to exhaustion because they love the ball SO much? Does your dog have trouble bonding with people because all they care about is the ball?"

I'm not sure about the not bonding with people. But if I have a ball my mix breed Rosko will ignore everyone in the world if he has the option of chasing a ball. Every other thing Athena with tugs and Rosko with a ball fit all of them. But both will come in and calm in the house. I have learned that when I wanna be done they accept it a lot easier if I run them in with the tug or ball in their mouth. At least they will release inside. Once they release I'll make them miss it a few more times then put it up and they go in their crate for 10-15 minutes. 
Plus I am not a big fan of Mals. Don't know why.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Julian G said:


> I look at some of the recommendations you guys make, and I see some of the dogs at local IPO clubs that are great dogs and maybe one or two had what I'm looking for and I think "wow, we had more dominant dogs than that growing up, my grandpa had basically a lion in dogs clothing". He got him from some hidden country road hillbilly way out in the sticks many years ago, probably long gone and swallowed by weeds by now. So yea, we have had strong dogs and at least that one had serious aggression and I know when I see it, maybe I don't have all the encyclopedic terms down like you guys:wink2:.


Perhaps your expectations are being skewed by your experience with your grandfather's dog.

I'm sure he was a fine animal, but I am not sure that he was a good example of the ideal GSD. While a certain level of aggression is desirable in the breed, they are not supposed to be _lions_ in dog clothing. The type of aggression that implies wouldn't make a dog suitable as a family companion, herding animal, or service dog. All roles a GSD should be expected to play along side their role as guardian.

Are GSDs really the right dog for what you are looking for? Why do you require such a dominant aggressive lion of a dog?


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

cdwoodcox said:


> Muskeg posted " Does your dog not let go of the ball when he/she knows playtime is up? Do your dog’s eyes dilate when they see the ball? Will your dog play to exhaustion because they love the ball SO much? Does your dog have trouble bonding with people because all they care about is the ball?"
> 
> I'm not sure about the not bonding with people. But if I have a ball my mix breed Rosko will ignore everyone in the world if he has the option of chasing a ball. Every other thing Athena with tugs and Rosko with a ball fit all of them. But both will come in and calm in the house. I have learned that when I wanna be done they accept it a lot easier if I run them in with the tug or ball in their mouth. At least they will release inside. Once they release I'll make them miss it a few more times then put it up and they go in their crate for 10-15 minutes.
> Plus I am not a big fan of Mals. Don't know why.



I was focusing on the staring at the cupboard for 8 hours. That kind of did it for me. Ball crazy, I get. Totally normal. But staring at the cabinet for 8 hours? Crazy extreme.

I'm not a Mal person either. I want a dog who shows plenty of drive on the field and can be chill in the house. I've got that with Raff and have had it with many of my past dogs. I had a SL once with really nice drives, but he couldn't chill until he turned about five.

We have some very nice Mals at our club. But, they came directly from Ivan's breeding program. So they've got the benefit of good genes and good early handling. Great looking dogs, too.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

carmspack said:


> I love how that dog was handled .
> 
> I don't like him .
> Let me explain a bit on this.
> ...


Great analysis. I noticed the lack of forwardness as well. Your comment about him going 'flat' seems spot on to me.

Totally agree that the dog did not want to be there. No joy in the work at all.

Personally, I wouldn't choose him as a sport dog. Our helper works his tail off as it is. Too much work.

I'd be interested in Slamdunc's thoughts as well.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

zetti said:


> I was focusing on the staring at the cupboard for 8 hours. That kind of did it for me. Ball crazy, I get. Totally normal. But staring at the cabinet for 8 hours? Crazy extreme.
> 
> I'm not a Mal person either. I want a dog who shows plenty of drive on the field and can be chill in the house. I've got that with Raff and have had it with many of my past dogs. I had a SL once with really nice drives, but he couldn't chill until he turned about five.
> 
> We have some very nice Mals at our club. But, they came directly from Ivan's breeding program. So they've got the benefit of good genes and good early handling. Great looking dogs, too.


 Yes, the staring for 8 hours seems to be neurotic or OCD type behavior. 
There is a Mal at my club. He's a nice enough dog. Very high strung but he seems to be coming along good. He's 65# but he looks bigger and he hits the sleeve bigger. Has enough focus to work for a ball. I just prefer GSD's.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

DutchKarin said:


> Hahah... You should have figured out how to make "trading the fog" into a new training term. It has potential. For instance.... you were helping the dog trade the fog for more confidence... and then voila... he won't bite you. Sorry, I just found this funny.>



ROFL, first time I read it I thought it was a new terminology I just hadn't heard of. Second time through I realized it was supposed to be 'dog'.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

zetti said:


> Honestly, a weak nerved GSD serves no real purpose, when you think about it. They're not much fun even as pets.
> 
> Von Stephanitz wrote harshly about shy GSDs--the one thing that absolutely had to be avoided.
> 
> ...



The fact that he wrote about them and was concerned tells us they existed back then, just as they do now.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

carmspack said:


> I love how that dog was handled .
> 
> I don't like him .
> Let me explain a bit on this.
> ...


Carmen,
A very spot on analysis. 

First off, I was the decoy working the dog. Thank you for the nice comments on the way the dog was worked and handled. :smile2:

Some background on the dog. A vendor brought out several dogs for us to test for a new dual purpose prospect. After testing how social the dog is, gunfire, then hunt and prey drive we move to 'civil" work. The dog was backtied and I agitated with out any equipment. It was very apperant that this dog would not engage and bite me for real, and I gave it the opportunity. I ended the testing right then with this dog. I did give him some bites on a sleeve to build him up and end on a high note for the dog. The vendor saw the reaction and asked my opinion, which was he not dual purpose candidate. They asked me to work him again and see if he could be built up which I agreed to do. That was the video it was a week after I initially tested the dog. The dog was far better on teh field than he was on the table, which is not surprising. The dog, IMHO is going through some seperation anxiety and not adjusting well to being shipped from Europe and tossed in a kennel at a dog vendor. Some GSD's need time to acclimate and adjust. 

Testing and evaluating dogs for potential patrol dogs is somehtng that I take very seriously. Potential dogs need to be pushed, pressured and tested in the evaluation. However, once I see a ***** iin the armor, I try not to exploit to the dog's detriment. It was obvious very quickly that this dog did not want to engage me and was going into avoidance during the civil testing. Seeing this made me stop. There was no reason to push this dog any further. What I did do was work the dog and let him win. Some people do crazy things when testing dogs and never think baout how the dog is left afterwards. I've seen some decent dogs ruined by countless agencies coming to test and putting too much pressure on young dogs. Then when the dog doesn't do well it goes back in the kennel to sit and wait for the next crew to take him out and test him. The vendors that I deal with know that the dogs I don't select will be treated well, fairly and worked with before I put them back. The dogs will be a little better after we test them then they were before we tested them. I will spend time working on a issue and pointing it out to the vendor. SOme dogs have no suot experience nad I will get them biting a suit before I put them up. It's only fair to the dogs. 

Carmen you hit the nail on the head with this dog. I was measuring the pressure to see how much the dog could handle and recover from. I botched it a little in the beginning with the stick, but was able to get him past that. I applied some pressure and then let it off with praise and bites on a sleeve. Similar to shaking up a bottle of soda and then loosening the cap to let some pressure out. Given more time I could have done more with the dog. 

Do I think this dog is a good sport candidate? Maybe for club level training he could be titled. Would I want him as my sport or competition dog, no I wouldn't. Would I have him for a pet, sure. What wasn't shown was the dog's prey and hunt drive which was nice. I think given the right training and right handler he could be a good narctocs dog. Would I want him as a single purpose narcotics dog, probably not. I want dogs that want to go, "simple Jack" kind of dogs. Tons of energy, pull me / drag me into a building and want to work. Not every handler wants that. 

*They decoy was very respectful of the dog and his capacity for pressure . I like the quiet way he was worked .
The dog wasn't broken for the sake of making a point*

You are absolutely correct. My goal was to bring something out in this dog and help him. I would feel horrible if I broke that dog or any other dog. My ego does not reside on "running dogs" off the field as some helpers egos do. Any dog can be made to run or be broken that does not take skill, it just takes a jerk of a decoy. As a decoy, I can remember a few dogs that failed to engage in SchH trials over the years and I was sick to my stomach over it. Nothing that I did intentionally, just worked each dog the same. I did feel bad for the dog and handler, not all dogs are cut out for IPO or Patrol work.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

voodoolamb said:


> Perhaps your expectations are being skewed by your experience with your grandfather's dog.
> 
> I'm sure he was a fine animal, but I am not sure that he was a good example of the ideal GSD. While a certain level of aggression is desirable in the breed, they are not supposed to be _lions_ in dog clothing. The type of aggression that implies wouldn't make a dog suitable as a family companion, herding animal, or service dog. All roles a GSD should be expected to play along side their role as guardian.
> 
> Are GSDs really the right dog for what you are looking for? Why do you require such a dominant aggressive lion of a dog?


When you look at a male lion, you see calm dominance, perhaps even laziness. Like a "nobody can touch me" attitude. When it's time they are forwardly aggressive, calm, and almost quiet, they don't make a fuss. That's what I was referring to.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Julian G said:


> When you look at a male lion, you see calm dominance, perhaps even laziness. Like a "nobody can touch me" attitude. When it's time they are forwardly aggressive, calm, and almost quiet, they don't make a fuss. That's what I was referring to.


Thank you for clarifying. That's not the imagery that comes to my mind when I think "lion". But anywho...

I do see quite a few GSDs that have those qualities. Not all that hard to find really. 

You still haven't said what you actually require the dog to do though? A go everywhere PPD for just yourself? A family guardian? An estate guard? A sport dog?


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

voodoolamb said:


> Thank you for clarifying. That's not the imagery that comes to my mind when I think "lion". But anywho...
> 
> I do see quite a few GSDs that have those qualities. Not all that hard to find really.
> 
> You still haven't said what you actually require the dog to do though? A go everywhere PPD for just yourself? A family guardian? An estate guard? A sport dog?


Not a sport dog, mostly an estate guard, one who will engage without the need of a command.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Julian G said:


> Not a sport dog, mostly an estate guard, one who will engage without the need of a command.


Thats vague and huge liability. How do you ensure the wrong person doesn't get bit?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Hasn't Julian said before that he needs a PPD?


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

cloudpump said:


> Thats vague and huge liability. How do you ensure the wrong person doesn't get bit?


If someone is at this location without permission, they deserve it.



Thecowboysgirl said:


> Hasn't Julian said before that he needs a PPD?


I made the mistake of lumping together PPDs and estate guards, I think of them as being in the same ballpark even though they are different.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Julian G said:


> If someone is at this location without permission, they deserve it.
> I made the mistake of lumping together PPDs and estate guards, I think of them as being in the same ballpark even though they are different.


Well yeah ... if you look at the job description of a "Bull Mastiff" you will see that there job is to "hold" intruders until other wise instructed.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Julian G said:


> Not a sport dog, mostly an estate guard, one who will engage without the need of a command.


Then perhaps the shepherd breeds are not the right choice for you? They are herding dogs after all. Hundreds of generations of genetic selection towards working _with_ a person, not independently. While many are territorial, I can guarantee you that I can be robbed blind even with my GSD (who HAS actually subdued a threat in a real world situation) because he has such a desire to be with me - he isn't going to be out guarding the property LOL

Maybe your issue with finding the right GSD is one of you trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. 

There are quite literally dozens of other breeds that have been designed to be estate guards. Why aren't you interested in them?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

they are much more than herding dogs .

Guarding and protection are basic to the character of a proper GSD's temperament.
That is why they were used in law enforcement .

In IPO the dog is evaluated in his ability to control a decoy , and fight till that decoy is subdued .
At least that was the purpose of these components of the trials.

when the breed was developed herding was already waning - a world wide shift from agrarian 
to industrial society .


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

voodoolamb said:


> Then perhaps the shepherd breeds are not the right choice for you? They are herding dogs after all. Hundreds of generations of genetic selection towards working _with_ a person, not independently. While many are territorial, I can guarantee you that I can be robbed blind even with my GSD (who HAS actually subdued a threat in a real world situation) because he has such a desire to be with me - he isn't going to be out guarding the property LOL
> 
> Maybe your issue with finding the right GSD is one of you trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.
> 
> There are quite literally dozens of other breeds that have been designed to be estate guards. Why aren't you interested in them?





carmspack said:


> they are much more than herding dogs .
> 
> Guarding and protection are basic to the character of a proper GSD's temperament.
> That is why they were used in law enforcement .
> ...


Thank you carm, they are not just herding dogs and they guarded the herd from thieves or coyotes or whatever as well. 
Voodoo, I think you don't really understand the breed and you shouldn't be giving advice if you don't. 
Here is a KNPV (mal x dutch _*shepherd*_) dog locating the box in the woods and showing the willingness to guard the box. GSDs are also used in KNPV. I haven't seen a different breed (non shepherd) being able to show the intensity to do this.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Julian G said:


> Thank you carm, they are not just herding dogs and they guarded the herd from thieves or coyotes or whatever as well.
> Voodoo, I think you don't really understand the breed and you shouldn't be giving advice if you don't.
> Here is a KNPV (mal x dutch _*shepherd*_) dog locating the box in the woods and showing the willingness to guard the box. GSDs are also used in KNPV. I haven't seen a different breed (non shepherd) being able to show the intensity to do this.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEXzVubBgQ0




One thing to be careful of when getting the type of dog you're talking about. A good friend of mine who is a very, very, very good and experienced decoy, had a dutch like you are saying you want. The reason he no longer has the dog, is because he was out, just him and the dog and out of know where the dog decided to bite him. So here he is in the middle if know where, and he's in a fight with this dog. Luckily the dog had a leash on, and all he could do was swing it around like a helicopter. The joke with that dog was that he had more flight time than an airplane. These are the types of things you need to consider when looking into dogs like this. They are generally a LOT of work. 

Unfortunately no video, but here is a picture of my balanced dog doing a box retrieve. 



Edit: I'm not sure if this is the same Borris I'm thinking of, but the one I'm thinking of was never titled because they couldn't get the control on him needed to pass. I also know someone who offered over $20k for that dog and was turned down. At least that's the story I was told.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

mycobraracr said:


> One thing to be careful of when getting the type of dog you're talking about. A good friend of mine who is a very, very, very good and experienced decoy, had a dutch like you are saying you want. The reason he no longer has the dog, is because he was out, just him and the dog and out of know where the dog decided to bite him. So here he is in the middle if know where, and he's in a fight with this dog. Luckily the dog had a leash on, and all he could do was swing it around like a helicopter. The joke with that dog was that he had more flight time than an airplane. These are the types of things you need to consider when looking into dogs like this. They are generally a LOT of work.
> 
> Unfortunately no video, but here is a picture of my balanced dog doing a box retrieve.


Well, that is why I said I feel more comfortable with GSDs. I don't know man, that story sounds like there is more to it. He might just be an unbalanced monster from poor breeding? (not what I want). He might have been abusive to the dog? Just doesn't sound right to me, a properly bred dog, KNPV or otherwise should not just out of nowhere attack the owner unless there is an underlying reason.

edit: you said he was a decoy? does he do decoy work with his own dog?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Julian G said:


> Thank you carm, they are not just herding dogs and they guarded the herd from thieves or coyotes or whatever as well.
> Voodoo, I think you don't really understand the breed and you shouldn't be giving advice if you don't.
> Here is a KNPV (mal x dutch _*shepherd*_) dog locating the box in the woods and showing the willingness to guard the box. GSDs are also used in KNPV. I haven't seen a different breed (non shepherd) being able to show the intensity to do this.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEXzVubBgQ0


They also guarded the shepherd himself from thieves and thugs.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> They also guarded the shepherd himself from thieves and thugs.


Who would ever think about rolling over a shepherd? They're usually out in the sticks far from others and I doubt they were carrying around a wad a cash. You'd think it would be a pretty safe occupation in that regard.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Julian G said:


> Well, that is why I said I feel more comfortable with GSDs. I don't know man, that story sounds like there is more to it. He might just be an unbalanced monster from poor breeding? (not what I want). He might have been abusive to the dog? Just doesn't sound right to me, a properly bred dog, KNPV or otherwise should not just out of nowhere attack the owner unless there is an underlying reason.
> 
> edit: you said he was a decoy? does he do decoy work with his own dog?



No he doesn't do decoy work with his own dog. He sold the dog after this incident to LE who sold it to another department who in turn had it destroyed. I have a lot of stories like this. Some I've seen first hand. With dogs like these, all they have to do is* think* you are being unfair and it's game on. Like I said I thought I wanted this too until I worked with a decent number of them. Now I know better. I will take good balance over that any day of the week. Some of these dogs are more work than their worth in my opinion.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Nigel said:


> Who would ever think about rolling over a shepherd? They're usually out in the sticks far from others and I doubt they were carrying around a wad a cash. You'd think it would be a pretty safe occupation in that regard.


But sheep were like money.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Julian G said:


> Thank you carm, they are not just herding dogs and they guarded the herd from thieves or coyotes or whatever as well.
> Voodoo, I think you don't really understand the breed and you shouldn't be giving advice if you don't.
> Here is a KNPV (mal x dutch _*shepherd*_) dog locating the box in the woods and showing the willingness to guard the box. GSDs are also used in KNPV. I haven't seen a different breed (non shepherd) being able to show the intensity to do this.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEXzVubBgQ0


I think the issue is not being on the same page. Your original post on this thread you wanted to talk about "raw aggression" and the thread title here indicates we are talking about "naturally aggressive" dogs. 

Then you said you wanted an estate guardian dog. My understanding of an estate guardian dog is one that will happily patrol a property alone and engage with any trespassers it comes across. There are breeds that are more suited to this type of work than GSDs. Many in the Molosser and LGD families.

For a GSD to do that kind of guard dog work - Actively patrolling a property alone and engaging a seemingly non threatening person, it takes specialized training, and a much smaller percentage of the shepherd population are going to succeed at it as opposed to, lets say, the Fila population. 

That clip of a Mal X is of a highly shaped and trained behavior, which is pretty different than what I thought we were talking about. *shrug*


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Julian G said:


> If someone is at this location without permission, they deserve it


So you want a dog that you are leaving at a location? Not with you? I don't know if a gsd is the best choice. The breed was bred to work with a handler. Not bred to work independently to that extent. 
And I don't care what the location is, you'll be held liable to anyone trespassing and being bit.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

cloudpump said:


> But sheep were like money.


Stealing cattle is still a thing so I suppose the same could be said for sheep.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

mycobraracr said:


> No he doesn't do decoy work with his own dog. He sold the dog after this incident to LE who sold it to another department who in turn had it destroyed. I have a lot of stories like this. Some I've seen first hand. With dogs like these, all they have to do is* think* you are being unfair and it's game on. Like I said I thought I wanted this too until I worked with a decent number of them. Now I know better. I will take good balance over that any day of the week. Some of these dogs are more work than their worth in my opinion.


That's unfortunate, but you said "dogs like these", and they aren't ALL like this. Seems to me like this stuff happens more here in the US than in Holland, maybe they truly do have tricks of the trade to avoid this type of behavior.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Nigel said:


> Who would ever think about rolling over a shepherd? They're usually out in the sticks far from others and I doubt they were carrying around a wad a cash. You'd think it would be a pretty safe occupation in that regard.


They lived and traveled in isolation. What little we speculate they might have had could be another man's gold who had not.

Do you think there is no theft in low income neighborhoods, or assault over petty or personal differences?


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

voodoolamb said:


> I think the issue is not being on the same page. Your original post on this thread you wanted to talk about "raw aggression" and the thread title here indicates we are talking about "naturally aggressive" dogs.
> 
> Then you said you wanted an estate guardian dog. My understanding of an estate guardian dog is one that will happily patrol a property alone and engage with any trespassers it comes across. There are breeds that are more suited to this type of work than GSDs. Many in the Molosser and LGD families.
> 
> ...


No worries, not attacking you.



cloudpump said:


> So you want a dog that you are leaving at a location? Not with you? I don't know if a gsd is the best choice. The breed was bred to work with a handler. Not bred to work independently to that extent.
> And I don't care what the location is, *you'll be held liable to anyone trespassing and being bit.*


I'm not sure I agree with this, if you have warning signs (beware of dog) and a burglar breaks into your house, I'm pretty sure you are not held liable to the burglars injuries.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Julian G said:


> I'm not sure I agree with this, if you have warning signs (beware of dog) and a burglar breaks into your house, I'm pretty sure you are not held liable to the burglars injuries.


Beware of dog. Another way of saying I knowingly have an aggressive dog and know I should take proper precautions against you getting a bite.


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## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

Julian G said:


> No worries, not attacking you.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure I agree with this, if you have warning signs (beware of dog) and a burglar breaks into your house, I'm pretty sure you are not held liable to the burglars injuries.



Be careful of your signage. My attorney told me to get rid of my "beware of dog signs" due to liability. I switched to "dogs on property".

It's something about knowingly having a "dangerous" weapon?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

gsdluvr said:


> Be careful of your signage. My attorney told me to get rid of my "beware of dog signs" due to liability. I switched to "dogs on property".
> 
> It's something about knowingly having a "dangerous" weapon?


I agree, my sister in law had a Rottie that tagged someone reaching over her fence. On her gate she had a beware of dog sign. Insurance told her she knew she had a 'dangerous' dog and was liable for any costs due to the bite.
Thankfully the person that got tagged did not pursue damages. He knew putting his hand over the fence to 'pet' her dog was a stupid move. But she would have had to pay regardless. This was 20 years ago, but still relevant now as far as liability goes.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

carmspack said:


> they are much more than herding dogs .
> 
> Guarding and protection are basic to the character of a proper GSD's temperament.
> That is why they were used in law enforcement .
> ...


Oh absolutely they are more then just a herder, but the distinction for me lies in what the dog is required to guard and protect, how they work, and the intensity. Personal Protection - absolutely! A threat to the dog's handler should mean a well bred GSD will engage no questions asked! Working with the handler in LE capacity - yes! 

I could be completely wrong here but I have my doubts about GSDs being the best choice as an _estate_ guardian though. I'm not convinced they are naturally suited to patrolling a property alone. I drew upon the dog's herding ancestry to make a point of it's desire to work with and be with it's handler, not to infer that they shouldn't be doing certain types of guarding and protection work. I also wonder if the traits required of an estate guardian go against some of the traits that seem to be universally desired in GSDs - Discernment being the first that comes to mind. How far is the GSD guarding and protection instinct _supposed_ to go? 

In my mind a GSD should stop at nothing to protect it's handler, but I'm not sure that ripping a couple kids to shreds for trying to jack a car radio is what was in mind during the creation of the breed. A mean alert bark, a some posturing, even a nip, attempting to drive them off - sure, but I don't expect my GSD to fight to the death over "stuff" _especially_ if I am not around. 

I hope what I am trying to say makes sense.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

gsdluvr said:


> Be careful of your signage. My attorney told me to get rid of my "beware of dog signs" due to liability. I switched to "dogs on property".
> 
> It's something about knowingly having a "dangerous" weapon?


I retained an attorney after my dog attacked my assaulter, to fight to keep my dog officially declared dangerous. My attorney was also handled an appeal case where a burglar was bitten by the family dog in the family's kitchen after breaking in.

Yeah. I said appeal. The first time around in the courts and the dog owner lost. 

There are dozens of horror stories out there. I've even heard of a dog being euthanized after biting a burglar. 

I jokingly-but-not-jokingly say I would have been better off shooting the guy who attacked me dead than I was with dealing with the bureaucracy of a severe dog bite. And that was just dealing with county - I am still within the statue of limitations for that guy to sue in a civil case! No guarantee that I would win either. A judge could very very easily rule that I, through way of my dog, used excessive force to neutralize the treat. That the guy is disfigured for life. Has lasting nerve damage. And blah blah blah. That is what my attorney had advised me to be ready to deal with.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

cloudpump said:


> Beware of dog. Another way of saying I knowingly have an aggressive dog and know I should take proper precautions against you getting a bite.


Beware of dog signs are not advised by lawyers, neither are simple signs such as dog on premises.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

voodoolamb said:


> Oh absolutely they are more then just a herder, but the distinction for me lies in what the dog is required to guard and protect, how they work, and the intensity. Personal Protection - absolutely! A threat to the dog's handler should mean a well bred GSD will engage no questions asked! Working with the handler in LE capacity - yes!
> 
> I could be completely wrong here but I have my doubts about GSDs being the best choice as an _estate_ guardian though. I'm not convinced they are naturally suited to patrolling a property alone. I drew upon the dog's herding ancestry to make a point of it's desire to work with and be with it's handler, not to infer that they shouldn't be doing certain types of guarding and protection work. I also wonder if the traits required of an estate guardian go against some of the traits that seem to be universally desired in GSDs - Discernment being the first that comes to mind. How far is the GSD guarding and protection instinct _supposed_ to go?
> 
> ...



My WLGSD naturally patrolled my acreage. However, if someone came onto it and didn't act in any threatening manner, he was watched and allowed to proceed. He did not attack anyone for merely coming onto my property. Is the GSD not supposed to discern between a threat and what is not a threat? Coming on the property at night would elicitate barking, but not attacking unless they showed a threat. The estate guard dogs I've seen were walking the estate with a handler, not by themselves. I'm sure there are some who do it alone, but it would take a lot of training by people who know what they are doing.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Julian G said:


> That's unfortunate, but you said "dogs like these", and they aren't ALL like this. Seems to me like this stuff happens more here in the US than in Holland, maybe they truly do have tricks of the trade to avoid this type of behavior.


Ohh, they have "tricks" alright to avoid this behavior. One trick is to sell the dog to the US. :wink2: I will not discuss the other "tricks" they use here. 

One thing I can tell you about handler aggressive dogs is that they do not run faster, bite harder or work better than dogs that are balanced and not handler aggressive. Handler aggressive dogs are a PITA and there are few upsides to them. I've owned them, worked them and rehabbed them and it's a lot of work. I don't give up on dogs (I must be stupid or a hopeless romantic). I have one now that I got because he bit 5 handlers, it's a lot of work and I have to question my sanity. Holland is not the US and they way they work and own dogs is different. They have some very strong dogs and some very strong handlers. The very best Dutch Shepherds or Belgian Malinois go to the Dutch Police. The lesser dogs, but still very good, get sent to us. If you are afraid of getting bit, are not a strong handler and can not effectively correct and control a strong, driven dog then be very careful with KNPV Dutch Shepherds or Belgian malinois.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Beware of dog signs are not advised by lawyers, neither are simple signs such as dog on premises.


Well that is some nonsensical BS!


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Deb said:


> My WLGSD naturally patrolled my acreage. However, if someone came onto it and didn't act in any threatening manner, he was watched and allowed to proceed. He did not attack anyone for merely coming onto my property. Is the GSD not supposed to discern between a threat and what is not a threat? Coming on the property at night would elicitate barking, but not attacking unless they showed a threat. The estate guard dogs I've seen were walking the estate with a handler, not by themselves. I'm sure there are some who do it alone, but it would take a lot of training by people who know what they are doing.



Boomer would do the same thing as long as they were calm. Boru will shred anyone that came on his property. He is quiet, does not bark at other dogs and content to be outside alone. However, he would nail anyone on the property with out making a sound. He would be an excellent Estate Guardian for some one with a lot of land and a very large umbrella insurance policy. I have 5 fenced acres and he is not allowed to be loose unless I am out there with him.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Slamdunc said:


> Ohh, they have "tricks" alright to avoid this behavior. One trick is to sell the dog to the US. :wink2: * I will not discuss the other "tricks" they use here. *
> 
> One thing I can tell you about handler aggressive dogs is that they do not run faster, bite harder or work better than dogs that are balanced and not handler aggressive. Handler aggressive dogs are a PITA and there are few upsides to them. I've owned them, worked them and rehabbed them and it's a lot of work. I don't give up on dogs (I must be stupid or a hopeless romantic). I have one now that I got because he bit 5 handlers, it's a lot of work and I have to question my sanity. Holland is not the US and they way they work and own dogs is different. They have some very strong dogs and some very strong handlers. The very best Dutch Shepherds or Belgian Malinois go to the Dutch Police. The lesser dogs, but still very good, get sent to us. If you are afraid of getting bit, are not a strong handler and can not effectively correct and control a strong, driven dog then be very careful with KNPV Dutch Shepherds or Belgian malinois.


Would love it if you PM me so I can learn more about some of those "tricks".
I'm the same way, I don't like to give up on dogs, maybe it's because I've fostered many and know that giving them some love goes a long way. People advise against loving on working dogs but I think it builds a better bond. Who knows.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Julian G said:


> Well that is some nonsensical BS!


No. It is neither nonsensical nor "BS".

It's common advice, given to careful people who don't want to lose their dog.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Slamdunc said:


> Boomer would do the same thing as long as they were calm. Boru will shred anyone that came on his property. He is quiet, does not bark at other dogs and content to be outside alone. However, he would nail anyone on the property with out making a sound. He would be an excellent Estate Guardian for some one with a lot of land and a very large umbrella insurance policy. I have 5 fenced acres and he is not allowed to be loose unless I am out there with him.


Boru looks like a calm, confident and assertive dog. He definitely has that "it" factor, but I know it takes a special kind of handler to walk the line with him.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

WIBackpacker said:


> No. It is neither nonsensical nor "BS".
> 
> It's common advice, given to careful people who don't want to lose their dog.


I was referring to the law behind it.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Slamdunc said:


> Boomer would do the same thing as long as they were calm. Boru will shred anyone that came on his property. He is quiet, does not bark at other dogs and content to be outside alone. However, he would nail anyone on the property with out making a sound. He would be an excellent Estate Guardian for some one with a lot of land and a very large umbrella insurance policy. I have 5 fenced acres and he is not allowed to be loose unless I am out there with him.



Exactly, and he bit five handlers before you took him on. (How blessed he is that you did!) Not civilians, handlers who had experience. A very large umbrella insurance policy. Yes.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

OP here you go. This is my wifes male at 4 months old, first time seeing a decoy. He's out of the breeder I PM'd you earlier. He is a hard, very aggressive male. He does have a strong bond to handler(his saving grace) but can be a challenge. My wife has to pick her battles carefully. My wife is an experienced handler who has worked strong dogs. Our nine year old would give most a run for their money. My wife learned a lot with her and that shows with Xander. He is a tough dog but clear. He isn't the easiest dog in the house to live with, but he's not too bad. She will be the first to tell you, control does not come easy with him and if you're unfair he'll let you know. You have to know what you're doing. 






As for the tricks Holland uses. I know of some as well. To be honest you'd be surprised at how the dogs they keep really are. I've seen and worked a KNPV national champ. I've seen him with his KNPV handler and with his US LE handler. You would think it was two different dogs. There is no supplement for experience. If you don't have the knowledge base, it will be a disaster.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Julian G said:


> Boru looks like a calm, confident and assertive dog. He definitely has that "it" factor, but I know it takes a special kind of handler to walk the line with him.


Boomer is calm and confident. Boru is anything but calm, he is confident and assertive but he is wound like a drum. He is far from calm when in drive to bite or search and a tough dog to handle. They both have that "it" factor in different ways. Boomer is much like the lion example that you used, eerily calm and quiet. Boru is the complete opposite, wound, bouncing, spinning and unable to contain the explosion that is about to happen. Both dogs really scare people that are present. Boru much more so. Boru needs to be managed, capped and controlled. He is quiet during warnings for buildings searches


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

mycobraracr said:


> OP here you go. This is my wifes male at 4 months old, first time seeing a decoy. He's out of the breeder I PM'd you earlier. He is a hard, very aggressive male. He does have a strong bond to handler(his saving grace) but can be a challenge. My wife has to pick her battles carefully. My wife is an experienced handler who has worked strong dogs. Our nine year old would give most a run for their money. My wife learned a lot with her and that shows with Xander. He is a tough dog but clear. He isn't the easiest dog in the house to live with, but he's not too bad. She will be the first to tell you, control does not come easy with him and if you're unfair he'll let you know. You have to know what you're doing.
> https://youtu.be/b6PpyVDU9os
> 
> 
> As for the tricks Holland uses. I know of some as well. To be honest you'd be surprised at how the dogs they keep really are. I've seen and worked a KNPV national champ. I've seen him with his KNPV handler and with his US LE handler. You would think it was two different dogs. There is no supplement for experience. If you don't have the knowledge base, it will be a disaster.


Just from the video alone, and without meeting the dog, that looks VERY impressive at 4 months and first time meeting the decoy. If I was buying a pup and saw that I would take that dog. 
As for some of the tricks Holland uses, please elaborate or PM me if you'd like. I would also like to learn more about how the dogs "really are" and why I would be surprised. Thanks for the video.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Slamdunc said:


> Boomer is calm and confident. Boru is anything but calm, he is confident and assertive but he is wound like a drum. He is far from calm when in drive to bite or search and a tough dog to handle. They both have that "it" factor in different ways. Boomer is much like the lion example that you used, eerily calm and quiet. Boru is the complete opposite, wound, bouncing, spinning and unable to contain the explosion that is about to happen. Both dogs really scare people that are present. Boru much more so. Boru needs to be managed, capped and controlled. He is quiet during warnings for buildings searches


Do you currently have both dogs? I was looking at your youtube channel and may have been confused which one is which (both start with "bo"). Ok boomer is the gsd, boru is the mal x dutch. His bite looks calm, I don't prefer that "wound, bouncing, spinning" behavior you described.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

voodoolamb said:


> I think the issue is not being on the same page. Your original post on this thread you wanted to talk about "raw aggression" and the thread title here indicates we are talking about "naturally aggressive" dogs.
> 
> Then you said you wanted an estate guardian dog. My understanding of an estate guardian dog is one that will happily patrol a property alone and engage with any trespassers it comes across. There are breeds that are more suited to this type of work than GSDs. Many in the Molosser and LGD families.
> 
> ...


The GSD was meant to work and live with the shepherd. Always looking to the Shepherd for signals and bonding deeply.

In no way is a GSD cut out to be a perimeter guard dog. These dogs need to bond deeply with their humans the way they bonded with their shepherds in the early days.

If you want a dog to guard your property, get an Anatolian Shepherd instead.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Julian G said:


> Do you currently have both dogs? I was looking at your youtube channel and may have been confused which one is which (both start with "bo"). Ok boomer is the gsd, boru is the mal x dutch. His bite looks calm, I don't prefer that "wound, bouncing, spinning" behavior you described.


Yup, I still have both dogs. Both dogs have full calm bites, both dogs push into the bite. Biting is not an issue with either dog. Boru is just more wound and intense, especially in the bite work. Here Boru is muzzled and sent into the bottle room the first time. No toys, no decoys, just Boru being well Boru.....He has a little prey drive as you can see.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

@mycobraracr, nice pup! Good luck with him.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Nigel said:


> Who would ever think about rolling over a shepherd? They're usually out in the sticks far from others and I doubt they were carrying around a wad a cash. You'd think it would be a pretty safe occupation in that regard.


Stealing the livestock would be my guess.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Julian G said:


> Boru looks like a calm, confident and assertive dog. He definitely has that "it" factor, but I know it takes a special kind of handler to walk the line with him.


Julian have you read the history of Boru?

Also, @Slamdunc when you said he would be happy patrolling alone and would shred anyone who came on the property....how much of that is a result of his training? 

Do you have access to trainers to help you do that kind of training, Julian?
@Slamdunc I am curious what your thoughts are on this, what would happen if a layperson owned Boru?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I once visited a goat farm to buy some goats. After driving up a mile long driveway I got out of my car and from the barn walked a big male Anatolian Shepherd. He barked once or twice and walked up to me within about five feet and just stared at me. Trust and believe I did not move a muscle until the farm owner finaly came out of the house and called him. I am most certainly not afraid of dogs but I knew I better not give this guy any reason to act.

I researched that breed a lot because it was what I had planned to put with my goats so they could stay on pasture more. 

The size alone will deter a lot of people, they are really impressive and will do what they do with very little training.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Slamdunc said:


> @mycobraracr, nice pup! Good luck with him.



Thank you. He's actually going to be three this week. I just never get video of him. My wife is usually the one behind the camera, so if she's handling and I'm decoying, then we get no video. This is the most recent video of him. 





The sable at the bottom of the screen I'm holding is my new prospect. She's currently 10 weeks. 7 weeks when this video was taken.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Julian G said:


> That's unfortunate, but you said "dogs like these", and they aren't ALL like this. Seems to me like this stuff happens more here in the US than in Holland, maybe they truly do have tricks of the trade to avoid this type of behavior.


No, they ship them off to stupid Americans or the dogs take a dirt nap.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

True, but there are people out there who want these dogs. I cant figure out for the life of me why. I've been to trials where the handlers are wearing long sleeve shirts and leather cuffs. Why? Because there dogs will get so loaded that they need to bite something, and up the leash they come. I don't want to have to put chain-mail on to work my dog lol. I see this mostly in the LE community thinking they need this type dog for the street because nothing else will bite.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I have no problems with a strong rank dog, but many of these dogs have a screw loose.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I once visited a goat farm to buy some goats. After driving up a mile long driveway I got out of my car and from the barn walked a big male Anatolian Shepherd. He barked once or twice and walked up to me within about five feet and just stared at me. Trust and believe I did not move a muscle until the farm owner finaly came out of the house and called him. I am most certainly not afraid of dogs but I knew I better not give this guy any reason to act.
> 
> I researched that breed a lot because it was what I had planned to put with my goats so they could stay on pasture more.
> 
> The size alone will deter a lot of people, they are really impressive and will do what they do with very little training.


I will have to be honest here and admit that I'm a bit vain and love the look of GSD/Mals/DSD
I'm sure many of you appreciate their beauty as well.



mycobraracr said:


> Thank you. He's actually going to be three this week. I just never get video of him. My wife is usually the one behind the camera, so if she's handling and I'm decoying, then we get no video. This is the most recent video of him.
> https://youtu.be/soUId00vLxY
> 
> The sable at the bottom of the screen I'm holding is my new prospect. She's currently 10 weeks. 7 weeks when this video was taken.
> https://youtu.be/5Dafb6G5t6w


Ever worry that you do decoy work with him and then live with him as well? I ask because someone who trains KNPV dogs has said to never be the prey or hold the prey item to avoid the risk of getting bit yourself.



lhczth said:


> No, they ship them off to stupid Americans or the dogs take a dirt nap.


Hmm, no wonder why some of them are only $500. The shipping from Holland costs more than the dog with some breeders. Learn something new every day.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Julian G said:


> Ever worry that you do decoy work with him and then live with him as well? I ask because someone who trains KNPV dogs has said to never be the prey or hold the prey item to avoid the risk of getting bit yourself..



Yes, but I'm not his handler. My wife is. He does not take commands from me. We take precautions to keep training clear. We also take extra measures on his crates at training. He has busted out multiple times to get to me when I'm getting Kimber out of the truck. I never work him in our house. My wife also can not rough house or anything with him out. Actually a few weeks ago all I did was pick her up and throw her on my shoulder, I turned around and saw nothing but teeth coming at my face. My wife downed him, I put her down, she told him good boy because technically he wasn't wrong and we had to put him up for a bit to calm back down. I never work my own dog.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

mycobraracr said:


> Yes, but I'm not his handler. My wife is. He does not take commands from me. We take precautions to keep training clear. We also take extra measures on his crates at training. He has busted out multiple times to get to me when I'm getting Kimber out of the truck. I never work him in our house. My wife also can not rough house or anything with him out. Actually a few weeks ago all I did was pick her up and throw her on my shoulder, I turned around and saw nothing but teeth coming at my face. My wife downed him, I put her down, she told him good boy because technically he wasn't wrong and we had to put him up for a bit to calm back down. I never work my own dog.


Sounds dangerous to me (working him and live in the same house). Be careful.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Most LE depts of today are not looking for over the top aggression that can't be controlled with training. There are so many misconceptions about what constitutes a good LE dog, and more about the important traits of good LE dog. That's why you have to get off Internet forums and if not work dogs at least go to trials or trainings to understand the terms and traits of these dogs( working and sport)
In answer to your initial question, there have always been a small remnant of breeders that bred just for natural aggression...but knowledgeable breeders know that breeding FOR natural aggression primarily, eventually leads to place where nerve issues creep in or the aggression is stronger than the nerve. Lastly, also the problem with breeding FOR these type of dogs are it becomes very very difficult to find complimentary breeding partners. Of course you could become a breeder that breeds this type to another dog like this to get even stronger aggression and become the King of the sic em dog breeders&#55357;&#56850;


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

Slamdunc said:


> @mycobraracr, nice pup! Good luck with him.


Yes, very nice pup!

Xander and Raff are the same age. I'be been having no luck getting Raff's most recent training video uploaded to YouTube. Anyone Have YouTube skills?


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

zetti said:


> Yes, very nice pup!
> 
> Xander and Raff are the same age. I'be been having no luck getting Raff's most recent training video uploaded to YouTube. Anyone Have YouTube skills?



Xander is actually going to be three years old this week. It's just one of the only videos I have of him working. I need more. Hint hint Celeste . Plus I like showing some of the younger videos, because you can see more the dog, not what training could have covered up, brought out. Now the flip side to that is some dogs need to grow up. 

Youtube is easy. Create an account, click the button that says upload and let it do it's thing. The when you want to post to the forum, you click the "share" button on your video and copy and paste the link to the forum.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Little Bo Peep lost her sheep because she listened to too many people on the internet who talk about stuff they dont really understand or do.









The dog you want exists in many flavours. Question is can you pay for him? 

If so, get off the forum and go see some dogs and buy one. 

Myco and Slam know of what they speak..be 100 percent sure on just how social or anti social you want your dog to be. There is no right or wrong answer just make sure you know.
Avoid handler aggression.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

mycobraracr said:


> Yes, but I'm not his handler. My wife is. He does not take commands from me. We take precautions to keep training clear. We also take extra measures on his crates at training. He has busted out multiple times to get to me when I'm getting Kimber out of the truck. I never work him in our house. My wife also can not rough house or anything with him out. Actually a few weeks ago all I did was pick her up and throw her on my shoulder, I turned around and saw nothing but teeth coming at my face. My wife downed him, I put her down, she told him good boy because technically he wasn't wrong and we had to put him up for a bit to calm back down. I never work my own dog.


Why would you want to live with a dog that you can't handle and that comes after you in your own home? What if your wife wasn't in the room or at home? I saw children in your picture. Is it safe to have children in your house with a dog that dangerous? I know you are a trainer and handler and have bred one litter. Is that the kind of dog you suggest other people own? Is that the kind of puppy you are breeding? If so, how do you screen to make sure you are placing a puppy in a home that wants and can handle that kind of dog?


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Julian have you read the history of Boru?
> 
> Also, @Slamdunc when you said he would be happy patrolling alone and would shred anyone who came on the property....how much of that is a result of his training?
> 
> ...


How much of Boru is a result of his training? Good question and I'm really not sure, he is what he is. I know that you do not want to walk into a yard he is loose in or open his kennel door if he doesn't know you. Or, be careful opening his kennel at night and waking him up. I went to open his kennel door one night and he was sound asleep in his dog house, he came marching out shooting me a look. I realized he was only using his eyes and didn't realize it was me. The body language told me that if i had just stepped in or swung the door open he was coming. I simply told him "Boru, knock it off" and "sit" at the door. Once he realized it was me he was fine. If he caught some one in the yard they are getting bit for sure. 

A lay person owning either of my dogs, Boru or Boomer would be a bad fit. Boomer would run the household and be a big PITA. Boru is not the kind of dog that belongs in a house or with a "layperson." It would not go well. He is purely a working dog and needs to be worked and managed. If I was single he could live in a house with me very nicely. I've traveled with him a good amount and he is easy to travel with and be around for me. I would not trust him around family members. That could very well be because of his prior training.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

LuvShepherds said:


> mycobraracr said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, but I'm not his handler. My wife is. He does not take commands from me. We take precautions to keep training clear. We also take extra measures on his crates at training. He has busted out multiple times to get to me when I'm getting Kimber out of the truck. I never work him in our house. My wife also can not rough house or anything with him out. Actually a few weeks ago all I did was pick her up and throw her on my shoulder, I turned around and saw nothing but teeth coming at my face. My wife downed him, I put her down, she told him good boy because technically he wasn't wrong and we had to put him up for a bit to calm back down. I never work my own dog.
> ...



lol did you skip over my comments on clear training? Clear headed dogs. Not working him in my house? Dogs are contextual. Went after me when? When I picked up my wife and placed her in a vulnerable position that he pecieved as threat and as a PPD responded appropriately? He's no more dangerous with children than any other dog unsupervised. Does no one remember this balance stuff we keep talking about? No he doesn't listen to my commands. Why should he, I'm not his handler. She is. Kimber doesn't listen to my wife either. If one of us is not home, they listen enough to get them taken care of, but that's all we ask. We compete. Sometimes we are on the field together. How would that work out if I give Kimber a command and Xander responds? Probably not too well. I don't understand where all of a sudden he's some man eater who we feed human babies to for his meals. Balance people! Keep things fair and clear! Here is a picture of him on the recliner with me. Gasp this is after training when I decided and even ran civil scenarios.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

No need to be sensitive, it was a reasonable question. I posted based on what I saw in your post. No, I haven't read every single thing you posted in this forum. I based it on what you said in the post I responded to. So your dog is trained in PPD against you as well as a stranger? 

I have taught my dogs to listen for their names before commands so they know which one I am talking to. I wouldn't own a dog that goes after any family member for any reason. As a trainer, what would you do if one of the dogs you trained did that to the handler's spouse and the person was injured?

You missed some of my questions.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

mycobraracr said:


> Went after me when? When I picked up my wife and placed her in a vulnerable position that he pecieved as threat and as a PPD responded appropriately?


No, just no, family members are exempt from being viewed as threats even if the dog is a PPD. That is not appropriate behavior.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> No, just no, family members are exempt from being viewed as threats even if the dog is a PPD. That is not appropriate behavior.


Thank you. That is what I was asking. It is my impression that PPD are trained to know the difference. This is the kind of thing that scares me when people without prior experience come here asking about how to train their own PPD.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I'm the decoy in this picture. Please explain to the dog what you expect him to understand. Personal Protection. Guess what, if he'll challenge me, then I have no doubt he will engage a threat. In this post I spoke of balance and clear headedness. Sensitive? Perhaps, I get so tired of this forum and all these GSD boards wanting nothing more than labs with pointy ears. Who would want a dog like this? A lot of people. Again read this thread. Also why we have been offered good money for him and Kimber. Is this what I'm breeding for? Take a glance at my fb page or webpage or threads based on breeding in this forum and you'd know what I'm breeding for. BALANCE!


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Just to add, you can't use the dogs name before commands in a trial.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

mycobraracr said:


> I'm the decoy in this picture. Please explain to the dog what you expect him to understand. Personal Protection. Guess what, if he'll challenge me, then I have no doubt he will engage a threat. In this post I spoke of balance and clear headedness. Sensitive? Perhaps, I get so tired of this forum and all these GSD boards wanting nothing more than labs with pointy ears. Who would want a dog like this? A lot of people. Again read this thread. Also why we have been offered good money for him and Kimber. Is this what I'm breeding for? Take a glance at my fb page or webpage or threads based on breeding in this forum and you'd know what I'm breeding for. BALANCE!


I don't know what makes you think that somebody wants a Lab in a GSD's clothing because they don't think a dog that lives in a home with a family should not attack those family members. 

I know you are the decoy. I have read every post on this thread. 

You said you picked up your wife and threw her over your shoulder, that was affection, not a threat, yet your dog went to engage. 

Is it the dog? Is it the training? Both? I don't know. 

Still no, just no.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> Thank you. That is what I was asking. It is my impression that PPD are trained to know the difference. This is the kind of thing that scares me when people without prior experience come here asking about how to train their own PPD.


I don't believe in that nonsense about a dog knowing, or being trained to know, the difference of what is a threat and what is not. It is a dog, not a mind reader.

This dog did not know the difference. It could have turned badly.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I don't believe in that nonsense about a dog knowing, or being trained to know, the difference of what is a threat and what is not. It is a dog, not a mind reader.
> 
> This dog did not know the difference. It could have turned badly.


Thank you for correcting me. That is even worse. I think people here don't always realize just how many people lurk on message boards and use what they are reading to make important decisions about their lives and their dogs. That is often why I bother to post in threads where I know I'm going to be shot down by someone who doesn't want to hear an alternative view. We tend to think only people posting are participating, but this thread could have thousands of viewers. These posts can't be edited or removed later by the poster, so they are basically etched in stone.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

I'll buy that unpredictable monster from you Jeremy







. That type of dog there is always demand for and I can always use.
When most people talk about balance or utility what they really mean is low energy, high threshold, low drive pet. Ask me if I'll buy one of those..lol.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Well, it did come into my mind that family members are NOT exempt from being a threat in real life.

Domestic violence for instance. Cobra racr I am not insinuating that you are a wife beater, sounds like that wouldn't go over too well in your house lol.

I am just stating that people we live with can absolutely be the threat.

as for the situation described....I don't know. Was she laughing? I don't know. I don't know enough about actual personal protection training to have an opinion about that. 

am I correct in assuming that this dog would not come after you for anything other than getting physical with your wife?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Well, it did come into my mind that family members are NOT exempt from being a threat in real life.
> 
> Domestic violence for instance. Cobra racr I am not insinuating that you are a wife beater, sounds like that wouldn't go over too well in your house lol.
> 
> ...


Nobody is disputing domestic violence, but a PPD is NOT the solution.

A dog, even a trained PPD, should NOT view physical affection between a husband and a wife as a threat, NEVER. The dog should not be making that decision.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

I'm just going to go ahead and say this... if Xander was truly an uncontrollable monster who wanted to eat Jeremy, he would not have stopped when he was commanded to. Really, guys, this is a training thing. They have chosen, from what it sounds like, to not stop this behavior. I'm sure if they had chosen to correct this, he would not do it. The dog sounds pretty clear headed based on what they are training.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

GypsyGhost said:


> I'm just going to go ahead and say this... if Xander was truly an uncontrollable monster who wanted to eat Jeremy, he would not have stopped when he was commanded to. Really, guys, this is a training thing. They have chosen, from what it sounds like, to not stop this behavior. I'm sure if they had chosen to correct this, he would not do it. The dog sounds pretty clear headed based on what they are training.


How do you know what the dog would or would not do without being in the room with the dog? You are making a lot of assumptions about a dog you have not handled. The truth is, we don't know anything about the dog other than what he has posted and what he posted clearly said the dog went after him and his wife called it off. What if the next person with a PPD has a child who gets angry and hits it a parents, and the dog attacks a child? Is that alright?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Who said anything about Xander being uncontrollable? Not one single person, that is who.

This is about viewing a FAMILY MEMBER as a threat.

They probably have chosen this behavior, but attacking a family member is not acceptable under any circumstances.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

A dog with the genetics for fight drive and higher aggression will be a liability if the training is not done correctly. I know many here do know what they are doing when it comes to introducing the bitework, but there are probably triple that amount that do it without thinking of a solid foundation.

There is a well known trainer in my area, runs a very successful club. One of his dogs will go up the line, bit a few previous handlers before the trainer took him on.
He has bred this dog, even though he cannot(or so he has said) vet him, or trial him. He doesn't place the puppies randomly. He also seldom breeds.

I doubt he would sell a pup to someone with little experience because they want a bad ass protection dog. Be careful who you deal with, not all that breed are as cautious when it comes to where their dogs end up.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Little Bo Peep lost her sheep because she listened to too many people on the internet who talk about stuff they dont really understand or do.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have seen dogs in real life, haven't seen the right one in real life yet to buy one. It's (hopefully) a decade long commitment. I want to be absolutely sure. And I don't listen to everyone on here, there are a handful who I take advice from. Handler aggression is an absolute no-no. The dog I'm looking for exists out there without handler aggression, I'm just waiting to find it.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

I don't have a dog in this fight, I have no ties to this breeding program or the way they train. I'm just saying from a common sense perspective that this is a training thing. Not a dangerous dog that shouldn't live with a family kind of thing. And of course it wouldn't be ok for a PPD to attack a child. But perhaps a dog that would do that should not be classified as a PPD to begin with.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

A dog that attacks a husband for being affectionate with his wife is a safe family dog? 

What would have happened had they had not noticed the dog about to engage for the wife to put it in a down?

A PPD shouldn't attack a child but it should attack an adult family member?


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

What I liked about best about my first Gsd-working line who was police trained was his high threshold, medium drive, incredible discipline and strong nerves- no worries in the world. I always thought he had exceptional training which no doubt he did but the bulk of it came from the dog he was. 
The dog was no joke -a weapon. All his traits made it work and safe in a not so experienced home.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Oye...

There are many husband/wife teams out there that work their own breedings on the husband in protection. These dogs are not stupid. They know the difference.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> A dog that attacks a husband for being affectionate with his wife is a safe family dog?
> 
> What would have happened had they had not noticed the dog about to engage for the wife to put it in a down?
> 
> A PPD shouldn't attack a child but it should attack an adult family member?



I'm curious... what constitutes "family" to the dog?


I know a lot of the couples in my IPO club are pretty hands off with each other's dogs. Husband and wife each have their own personal dog ad the spouse rarely interacts with not-their-dog. They certainly are not raised as "family" dogs.

My own dog nipped my ex when we were in a fight. I would have thought my dog considered him family... but maybe that was why it was a nip and not a full on stitch requiring I'm going to take you out kind of bite? They played and slept together a few times a week. But we didn't live together.

What about a roommate situation where they all live in the same house but roommate pretty much ignores the dog...

I'm not trying to pick a fight or disagree with anyone... everyone talks about how important discernment is in the breed. I personally think discernment is more of a product of nature rather than nature.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Well I'll say one thing. I have been lucky over the last 11 years that my wife chose a toy poodle and not a GSD type dog. I can't count how many times I have been playing around with my wife and will start to wrestle around or playfully slap her on the leg and that dog has came at me. Now the dog is 8 lbs so it's comical. But if it were a big dog. Not so funny. 
About the GSD. It sounded to me like what I would expect a dog to do if my wife had a PPD.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

voodoolamb said:


> I'm curious... what constitutes "family" to the dog?
> 
> 
> I know a lot of the couples in my IPO club are pretty hands off with each other's dogs. Husband and wife each have their own personal dog ad the spouse rarely interacts with not-their-dog. They certainly are not raised as "family" dogs.
> ...


A family member is somebody residing long term at the residence. 

I think the keywords is that they are not raised as "family dogs".

Were you okay with your dog nipping your ex?

Where is the discernment when a dog attacks a family member that it lives with?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I don't know about dogs knowing the difference. Some people have GSDs that LOVE everybody yet they had to have come to Jesus moments with their GSD for attacking their husband. Hmmmmmmm!


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> A family member is somebody residing long term at the residence.
> 
> I think the keywords is that they are not raised as "family dogs".
> 
> ...


Yep. I was ok with it in that situation. It was highly emotionally charged and the ex came towards me in an aggressive manner. However I would not have been upset if the dog didn't react either. My dog also never attempted to bite the ex when he and I were just messing around and play hitting each other. 

I've seen what my dog can do when he wants to hurt someone. And he barely broke the skin on ex Mr. Voodoo. I thought he was actually showing good discernment. Adjusting the amount of force based on the situation. I could be way wrong there though. Maybe that was an inappropriate bite.

I'm very interested in what is and is not appropriate aggression in the breed according to the standard and the founder's vision.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

voodoolamb said:


> Yep. I was ok with it in that situation. It was highly emotionally charged and the ex came towards me in an aggressive manner. However I would not have been upset if the dog didn't react either. My dog also never attempted to bite the ex when he and I were just messing around and play hitting each other.
> 
> I've seen what my dog can do when he wants to hurt someone. And he barely broke the skin on ex Mr. Voodoo. I thought he was actually showing good discernment. Adjusting the amount of force based on the situation. I could be way wrong there though. Maybe that was an inappropriate bite.
> 
> I'm very interested in what is and is not appropriate aggression in the breed according to the standard and the founder's vision.


As my elderly mother aged she became increasingly combative. There is no way that I would have found it acceptable for the dog to attack her. 

I think an ex or family member approaching aggressively needs to be dealt with legally or through counseling, not by dog attack.

I would be interested as well in what the founder had to say, I do believe he said that a GSD should be a good family dog. Feel free to disagree as many apparently are, but good family dogs don't attack family members.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> As my elderly mother aged she became increasingly combative. There is no way that I would have found it acceptable for the dog to attack her.
> 
> I think an ex or family member approaching aggressively needs to be dealt with legally or through counseling, not by dog attack.
> 
> I would be interested as well in what the founder had to say, I do believe he said that a GSD should be a good family dog. Feel free to disagree as many apparently are, but good family dogs don't attack family members.


See that is something I am not entirely sure about - GSDs being "good family dogs". Atleast in the sense of what is a modern "family dog". 

Something that stuck out to me when reading Stephanitz's book was the emphasis on the _Master_. That the dog should regard the children as his Master's treasured possessions and treat and protect them as such. That the dog would disregard the commands of the _Mistress_ of the house. And that aggression towards house servants (which back then often lived in the house) was tolerated. 

Now, a lot of that is definitely a reflection of the time it was wrote. Max might start rolling around in his grave if he saw how many of us "womenfolk" are handling these dogs successfully today. But it does give me a lot to think about. I mean even when talking about modern GSDS, it is often said they are one - person dogs, that they pick that one special person in the family and really really bond with. 

So what I am left wondering - are GSDs really good _family_ dogs? Or are they good for a person who _has a family_. It's a minor distinction but the differences in what we see in the breed can be major. 

If they are meant to be family dogs in the modern sense, loving and respecting everyone in the family equally, not acting when it appears the family are threatening each other - well can that really be achieved without watering down the protective and guarding instincts towards strangers? 

And if it is the later then I am not sure I can fault a dog for trying to protect it's master, even from other family members. Though I imagine that there should be a emphasis on a dog with high discernment in picking out what it a real threat, and in using appropriate amounts of force and even no force.

I have no earthly clue which way it is supposed to be, but I do think that in modern GSDs there are a fair deal of both kinds of dogs.


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## J and J M (Sep 20, 2013)

I wonder how serious Mycobra's dog was in its attack. I would guess not very serious because otherwise it would have been almost impossible for the wife to call the dog off at full speed, due to time. I would also guess he has far more real dog experience than any of the people questioning him and his dog.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I don't know what the breed founders would have said, but in today's society, a dog biting anybody who is not an imminent threat to the life and safety of his owner (exception Police K9) is incorrect. 

There are very few scenarios where a dog bite is the best solution. Very few. And the liability is real and huge. 

Of course there are stable balanced dogs and certainly quality working dogs who might bite a non-threat, that is where training and management kick in.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

voodoolamb said:


> See that is something I am not entirely sure about - GSDs being "good family dogs". Atleast in the sense of what is a modern "family dog".
> 
> Something that stuck out to me when reading Stephanitz's book was the emphasis on the _Master_. That the dog should regard the children as his Master's treasured possessions and treat and protect them as such. That the dog would disregard the commands of the _Mistress_ of the house. And that aggression towards house servants (which back then often lived in the house) was tolerated.
> 
> ...


Are you reading Max's book or the knock off where somebody else interpreted Max's words and meanings?

I never did say that a German Shepherd was suitable for all families. But whether a family is a good fit for a GSD or not, the GSD should not attack a family member.

No where did I say that a GSD should be equally bonded to every family member, but nonetheless, it should be bonded to varying degrees to family members, or at the very least, accepting of all family members. One's home is their safe place and nobody should have to fear an attack from a family dog.

To answer your question whether a GSD would protect from an outside threat while refusing to attack a family member, the answer is yes. The family pack should be protected by the GSD, not from it.

Should a dog be permitted to discern a threat? What if, instead of approaching you in an aggressive manner, your ex had quietly slipped behind you and held a knife to your throat? Should the dog discern that as a threat? Or maybe the question should be should anybody trust a dog to determine what is a threat and what is not?


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Julian G said:


> I have seen dogs in real life, haven't seen the right one in real life yet to buy one. It's (hopefully) a decade long commitment. I want to be absolutely sure. And I don't listen to everyone on here, there are a handful who I take advice from. Handler aggression is an absolute no-no. The dog I'm looking for exists out there without handler aggression, I'm just waiting to find it.



The reason I have been bringing up being fair so much, is because a lot of handler aggression is created by bad handling. A good number of these dogs are pushed to that point. How much of a push? That depends on the dog. I also believe some breeds are quicker to that point than others. They get so loaded that they need to bite something. The handler just happens to be the person. 

As for how fast a dog can be called off. Fast, we train it. Here is Kimbers. 





Any other questions about the scenario I brought up can be answered by everyone else who was apparently in the room with us. This is how the unstable dog and us spend most nights.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

mycobraracr said:


> Xander is actually going to be three years old this week. It's just one of the only videos I have of him working. I need more. Hint hint Celeste . Plus I like showing some of the younger videos, because you can see more the dog, not what training could have covered up, brought out. Now the flip side to that is some dogs need to grow up.
> 
> Youtube is easy. Create an account, click the button that says upload and let it do it's thing. The when you want to post to the forum, you click the "share" button on your video and copy and paste the link to the forum.


YouTube is not cooperating. It can't seem to find this video.

Ok. Well, Xander certainly looked promising as a pup. He was fun to watch, much different than the video that Slamdunc posted. That dog was painful to watch.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

*OK, I think we have had enough of a discussion about mycobraracrs dog. You were not there. You do not know the dog. Most have no experience whats so ever with dogs with strong temperament, let alone trained or lived with them. mycobraracrs and his wife have far more experience with their own dogs and I think they feel comfortable handling them. 

And also enough with the overly exaggerated crazy fear mongering scenarios. If you have no interest in a PPD or even owning a dog of very strong temperament, don't own one, but, also don't make it sound like these dogs are one step away from eating children. :crazy:

Thank you,

ADMIN Lisa*


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

gsdluvr said:


> Be careful of your signage. My attorney told me to get rid of my "beware of dog signs" due to liability. I switched to "dogs on property".
> 
> It's something about knowingly having a "dangerous" weapon?


Well since the OP's initial questions/concerns have been addressed, I'll ask if anyone here has actual experience, not 2nd hand or anecdotal, with being prosecuted, in criminal or civil court, for having a "beware of dog" sign on their property. I ask because I've heard that tale thrown around quite a bit, but I've never seen a news story or read court documents showing that an owner was deemed to be culpable for having such a sign posted.

What I have seen in some state regulations is very specific language saying that _if you have a dangerous dog, you need to take the necessary precautions to secure the dog and warn visitors and/or intruders of that dog's presence._

So this might be something that varies state to state, but I'm just wondering if people here can provide some context to it.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Hey Jeremy, my 14 year old DDR female was having a litter about 10 years ago. I couldn't get home until about 8pm and I called my wife and told her to go in basement and let her go outside to potty. My wife called back and informed me that she would not let her into the room. This is female we had since 8 weeks old. Now I could go into whelping box and handle pups at any time but for first three days my wife couldn't. And my wife has forgotten more about strong GS than most, as she has handled and lived with all of my dogs. BUT in this instance she as family member could not get near pups for three days.
This female is now 14 years old, she has never bit a family member but family members have always had healthy respect for her. When I go away for weekends or overnight, she always provided my wife the greatest security because she is real. My wife has no problems with her, but she only really listens to me and my grandson(11years old), she tolerates everyone else. 
She is not a dog for everyone, but she is awesome family dog for our family, and that's what most important to me. 
So I thoroughly get your dog and in your family I see no problem whatsoever. Everyone does not have family for this type dog, but if the fit works all is good!


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

cliffson1 said:


> Hey Jeremy, my 14 year old DDR female was having a litter about 10 years ago. I couldn't get home until about 8pm and I called my wife and told her to go in basement and let her go outside to potty. My wife called back and informed me that she would not let her into the room. This is female we had since 8 weeks old. Now I could go into whelping box and handle pups at any time but for first three days my wife couldn't. And my wife has forgotten more about strong GS than most, as she has handled and lived with all of my dogs. BUT in this instance she as family member could not get near pups for three days.
> This female is now 14 years old, she has never bit a family member but family members have always had healthy respect for her. When I go away for weekends or overnight, she always provided my wife the greatest security because she is real. My wife has no problems with her, but she only really listens to me and my grandson(11years old), she tolerates everyone else.
> She is not a dog for everyone, but she is awesome family dog for our family, and that's what most important to me.
> So I thoroughly get your dog and in your family I see no problem whatsoever. Everyone does not have family for this type dog, but if the fit works all is good!


When I first started my search I was looking seriously at DDR dogs.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

gsdluvr said:


> Be careful of your signage. My attorney told me to get rid of my "beware of dog signs" due to liability. I switched to "dogs on property".
> :smile2::smile2:
> It's something about knowingly having a "dangerous" weapon?



It goes to foreseeability. And the legal duty of care you owe someone who is on your property. A trespasser is owed the lowest duty of care, but if you knew or reasonably should have known your dog would bite, you had an affirmative responsibility to protect anyone who enters your property.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Are you reading Max's book or the knock off where somebody else interpreted Max's words and meanings?
> 
> I never did say that a German Shepherd was suitable for all families. But whether a family is a good fit for a GSD or not, the GSD should not attack a family member.
> 
> ...


When someone asks me about getting a GSD as a good, all around family dog, I refer them to an excellent Lab breeder I know.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

mycobraracr said:


> Thank you. He's actually going to be three this week. I just never get video of him. My wife is usually the one behind the camera, so if she's handling and I'm decoying, then we get no video. This is the most recent video of him.
> https://youtu.be/soUId00vLxY
> 
> The sable at the bottom of the screen I'm holding is my new prospect. She's currently 10 weeks. 7 weeks when this video was taken.
> https://youtu.be/5Dafb6G5t6w


Two nice puppies. Love how the black pup drifted off into Puppyland for a few seconds. They do like to remind us that they're puppies.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

*I asked people to stop discussing Jeremy's wife's dog (mycobraracr). Any posts will now be deleted and if you continue to ignore me you will get a time out. 

Thank you,

ADMIN Lisa*


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

To address Dalko, my insurance told me to put up "Beware of Dog" signs. They know I have dogs on the property and require the signs. There is something called "assumption of risk" that applies here, I believe.

Also, I'd be very interested to hear case law where a trained PPD actually bit someone, and what happened to the dog and owner. It seems like many lawyers would just be thrilled to have some of the videos I see around "PPD for Sale" on line. If that same dog did anything... whew. 

In other countries or a long time ago, it was fine to bite trespassers. With the exceptions of a home invasion, or someone jumping a signed fence, or entering a closed kennel, I don't think someone simply being on your property gives your dogs a free pass to bite or attack. 

Assault or attack on a person, something different, and varies by state what kind of law applies to dogs who are protecting their owners. Property protection is much more obtuse.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

In regards to the warning sign issue, I've seen regulations for specific counties/cities saying that if you have a potentially dangerous dog, you need to post warning signs and secure it. As well I've read language stating that a dog attacking a trespasser with criminal intent will not be deemed 'vicious' under certain circumstances. This regulation below applies specifically to Livermore, CA (so this sort of thing might vary by state or county) and is in regards to 'vicious' or 'potentially dangerous' dogs (each of which have their own standards) (Chapter 6.14 POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS AND VICIOUS DOGS).

The part about the sign:


> A sign advising of the presence of a vicious dog shall be posted at the entrance to every place wherein any such vicious dog is confined. The sign shall be capable of being understood by a child. This sign must be approved by or provided by the animal control officer.


The part about criminal trespassers:


> . No dog may be declared potentially dangerous or vicious if any injury or damage is sustained by a person who, at the time the injury or damage was sustained, *was committing a willful trespass or other tort upon the owner’s premises, or the injured party was tormenting, abusing, or assaulting the dog, or was committing or attempting to commit a crime*. No dog may be declared potentially dangerous or vicious *if the dog was protecting or defending a person within the immediate vicinity of the dog from an unjustified attack or assault*.


Maybe there is the potential for a a civil court case, but in a criminal court, it seems that a dog defending its property or owner has some measure of legal protections. YMMV depending on which area you live in I suppose.


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