# Barking at men



## MMcCoy (May 12, 2016)

Lay is scared of men so if we have a guy friend over she will bark and growl, (she has never done anything aggressive just vocal) so I have started putting her up until she chills then she can come back out, she will still growl under her breath but she is doing much better with this. 

Now the current problem is I am having several guests over this weekend 3 of them being men who she has never met before. I am hoping to utilize this situation to help her with her fear and hopefully work past some of her barking. 

So any advice on how to quickly socialize her/ make her feel comfortable?


Back story she was found thrown out of a car we are assuming by a man given her level of fear when she is approached by men.


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

If you have a MAN helper who will come over or if your guests will agree while there, muzzle the dog (soft nylon) Pet Supermarket etc... allow the dog to interact with constant encouragement and love and see how it goes. BREAKING DOWN THE WALLS!


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## MMcCoy (May 12, 2016)

ipopro said:


> If you have a MAN helper who will come over or if your guests will agree while there, muzzle the dog (soft nylon) Pet Supermarket etc... allow the dog to interact with constant encouragement and love and see how it goes. BREAKING DOWN THE WALLS!


I have a live in boyfriend, but she is a little indifferent to him :laugh2: 

I actually really like that idea.


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

MMcCoy said:


> I have a live in boyfriend, but she is a little indifferent to him :laugh2:
> 
> I actually really like that idea.


Get the muzzle today if possible and start getting her use to it ASAP! :grin2:


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Try putting her up like you normally do.Let her out when she's calm and tell the men to ignore her and avoid eye contact.They could toss tiny bits of super high value treats close to her.No eye contact or approaching her whatsoever even if she gets brave and approaches for a sniff.They could hand her a treat and continue to ignore.If she gets feeling overwhelmed then back to her safe crate for a while.

She may never be totally comfortable with men but she can learn to feel calm at a particular distance or even up close if they don't reach for her or stare.


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

dogma13 said:


> Try putting her up like you normally do.Let her out when she's calm and tell the men to ignore her and avoid eye contact.They could toss tiny bits of super high value treats close to her.No eye contact or approaching her whatsoever even if she gets brave and approaches for a sniff.They could hand her a treat and continue to ignore.If she gets feeling overwhelmed then back to her safe crate for a while.
> 
> She may never be totally comfortable with men but she can learn to feel calm at a particular distance or even up close if they don't reach for her or stare.


And renew your home owners insurance and triple confirm don't forget that!


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## MMcCoy (May 12, 2016)

ipopro said:


> And renew your home owners insurance and triple confirm don't forget that!


The live in boyfriend is an insurance agent :grin2: got the insurance covered!! LOL


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## MMcCoy (May 12, 2016)

dogma13 said:


> Try putting her up like you normally do.Let her out when she's calm and tell the men to ignore her and avoid eye contact.They could toss tiny bits of super high value treats close to her.No eye contact or approaching her whatsoever even if she gets brave and approaches for a sniff.They could hand her a treat and continue to ignore.If she gets feeling overwhelmed then back to her safe crate for a while.
> 
> She may never be totally comfortable with men but she can learn to feel calm at a particular distance or even up close if they don't reach for her or stare.



Have you tried Lavender dog treats? I ordered some for this occasion to have them give her. 

I am going to put her crate in my room so she will be able to retreat far away from the guests.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

I'd ask the guys to not look at/talk to or try to reach out to the dog until she shows an interest in sniffing them and she relaxes.

The dog should just be encouraged to be comfortable to be in the presence of the men with out them putting any pressure on her.



> allow the dog to interact with constant encouragement and love and see how it goes.


Would this include the guys reaching to the dog saying good girl. To me that is simply a wrong move to begin with. IMO better to allow the dog feel comfortable in the guys company and hopefully feel like investigating herself and trying to sniff them rather than them making any first moves.

If the guys remain neutral the dog can do it herself.

This theory is based on how a dog senses people and the enviroment. It first needs smell something to know what it is. A confident dog will just run up and smell the person straight away. With shy/fearful dogs they won't do this, so the person making the first move is likely to actually reinforce the dogs mistrust of them.

No matter what the dog the staying aloof at first and letting the dog smell you, see you and then hear you when it's comfortable, is the best way to go.

If a dog is barking at you, would you walk up to it with you hand out saying hey boy/girl?


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## MMcCoy (May 12, 2016)

MadLab said:


> This theory is based on how a dog senses people and the enviroment. It first needs smell something to know what it is. A confident dog will just run up and smell the person straight away. With shy/fearful dogs they won't do this, so the person making the first move is likely to actually reinforce the dogs mistrust of them.


In your opinion do you think I should have them leave their stuff in a room that she can go into with out them in there,so she can sniff their stuff and maybe gain confidence to be more comfortable around them?


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

MMcCoy said:


> Have you tried Lavender dog treats? I ordered some for this occasion to have them give her.
> 
> I am going to put her crate in my room so she will be able to retreat far away from the guests.


Haven't tried em yet,I'll have to check it outHigh value to my pups is tiny bits of chicken hot dogs or any leftover meat that I chop up and freeze for later.


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

MadLab said:


> I'd ask the guys to not look at/talk to or try to reach out to the dog until she shows an interest in sniffing them and she relaxes.
> 
> The dog should just be encouraged to be comfortable to be in the presence of the men with out them putting any pressure on her.
> 
> ...


I think I made it very clear. Allow the DOG to interact.
:wink2:

Dogs bark at me constantly on and off the field. I do I must say.


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## MMcCoy (May 12, 2016)

dogma13 said:


> Haven't tried em yet,I'll have to check it outHigh value to my pups is tiny bits of chicken hot dogs or any leftover meat that I chop up and freeze for later.


I have dried beef liver that I normally give for treats, but I ordered lavender for the calming aspect for this occasion. 

They smell delicious! Not going to lie I am very tempted to try one myself :laugh2:


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

This theory is based on how a dog senses people and the enviroment. It first needs smell something to know what it is. A confident dog will just run up and smell the person straight away. With shy/fearful dogs they won't do this, so the person making the first move is likely to actually reinforce the dogs mistrust of them.


> In your opinion do you think I should have them leave their stuff in a room that she can go into with out them in there,so she can sniff their stuff and maybe gain confidence to be more comfortable around them?


Good question. It might be of some benefit but hard to say. I do see dogs always check bags instinctively anyways so might be good to do it with out that person there.

The dog still needs to actually get close enough to a person to sniff them. Maybe with some prior smell she links it together who they are quicker. 

It is much more important the person doesn't do something to reinforce the dogs mistrust of them. Some people can be afraid of the dog. Some people can be too excited metting the dog and have an expectation of how a dog should greet people. 

It seems most people want to make contact as soon as possible with a dog. Too soon imo. Someone stands there ground, the dog sees there profile, nothing threatening, smells them, and hears them say, speaking to you relaxed and the dog draws a picture of the person and begins to feel comfortable with the person. They realize the person is not a threat most importantly. 

They turn to soon to the dog and looks it in the eye and puts out there hand, and says hi there, and a reactive dog will trigger into barking. 

It works with excitable dogs too. If someone is cool the dog won't be jumping all over them. It will respect them.


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## MMcCoy (May 12, 2016)

MadLab said:


> This theory is based on how a dog senses people and the enviroment. It first needs smell something to know what it is. A confident dog will just run up and smell the person straight away. With shy/fearful dogs they won't do this, so the person making the first move is likely to actually reinforce the dogs mistrust of them.
> 
> 
> Good question. It might be of some benefit but hard to say. I do see dogs always check bags instinctively anyways so might be good to do it with out that person there.
> ...


Thank you!


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

MMcCoy said:


> Thank you!


The dog will smell them long before they get to the bag or the person I assure you! Anyway, you have plenty of response here, Best of luck to you and yours!

Next time I come by i'll throw a few treats at your dog, and see if that helps anything!


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

You also want to try not make the dog the center of attention. It can be difficult. Sometimes it is better to have the dog away from the action when people arrive and when they settle bring her out. Or let her come out herself.

Only give treats when the dog is comfortable and relaxed. 

research desensitizing too
Desensitizing and Counter-Conditioning: Overcoming Your Dog?s Issues

Sometimes just get the guests and go for a walk together with the dog. The dog usually switchs mode walking. The people get to see her in a none confrontational way, and you return together to the house. You simply avoid the greeting which can go one way or the other.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Your dog is making "independent decisions as to who is "acceptable" and who is not. That is not her call it's yours. I think "this" weekend is a pretty short timeline to address this now?? Your dog has already told you I have a "people issue" ... take her at her word and make "adjustments to your expectations." 

Yes you can slap a muzzle on the dog and cram "men" into her face, ie *"Flood The Dog" force her into an "uncomfortable" situation for "her" and "break down the resistance." *I suppose that works?? Not what I did/do and not what I advise. 

The first time I "understood" that ... I had a problem was when company came over for the first time. Rocky happened to be in "Place" and he greeted each new arrival with a "Cold Hard Stare and a low Growl???" 

He was already in "Place" and did not move just locked eyes and kept everyone in sight ... good enough. "Place" it is. So he could "watch" and not interact, I kept "company out of his face." I was not willing to take the "Cesar" approach ...* "negotiate with the dog entrance of company into the home,"*that is not his job (my dog), it's mine. I have a "Zero" risk policy myself. People don't need a courage test to be "allowed" into my home with my dogs.

How I did it is here:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7897425-post21.html

And it's not "Rocket Science" anyone can do it if they make "Good Choices" for their dog. But you're not going to get "that" done in 3 days. 

And for more insight ... since people deal /discover this "issue" all the time and since a member decided to ask first ... see here:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...33-how-do-you-socialize-working-line-dog.html

I would as others have said "limit" her interaction with company and or Crate her. It's a bit late to start fixing this now. Best course of action ... do no harm.


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

Please don't "Yes you can slap a muzzle on the dog and cram "men" into her face"

PLEASE DON'T DO THAT!

PLEASE DO NOT USE AN E-COLLAR INITIALLY, if you feel it necessary absolutely necessary then graduate to that if all else fails!

Simply place the muzzle onto the dog and allow the dog to interact... NUFF SAID! ROFLMFBO

Is that a working line dog by chance?


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## MMcCoy (May 12, 2016)

Chip18 said:


> Your dog is making "independent decisions as to who is "acceptable" and who is not. That is not her call it's yours. I think "this" weekend is a pretty short timeline to address this now?? Your dog has already told you I have a "people issue" ... take her at her word and make "adjustments to your expectations."
> 
> Yes you can slap a muzzle on the dog and cram "men" into her face, ie *"Flood The Dog" force her into an "uncomfortable" situation for "her" and "break down the resistance." *I suppose that works?? Not what I did/do and not what I advise.
> 
> ...


Hi, I have been working on this issue with her since I got her. I have been working with a trainer and I was asking for advice to help her with this major step. Not just addressing this now. 

I in no way am trying to fix this over 3 days it is simply the first time I have had company for the weekend since I got her.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

ipopro said:


> Please don't "Yes you can slap a muzzle on the dog and cram "men" into her face"
> 
> PLEASE DON'T DO THAT!
> 
> ...


Amazingly enough you use:








but don't get it ...?? Interesting??


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MMcCoy said:


> Hi, I have been working on this issue with her since I got her. I have been working with a trainer and I was asking for advice to help her with this major step. Not just addressing this now.
> 
> I in no way am trying to fix this over 3 days it is simply the first time I have had company for the weekend since I got her.


Ahh ... a bit different ... thank you for the clarification!


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

Chip18 said:


> Amazingly enough you use:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Amazingly enough you tell on yourself. Throw a few words around add a few links a insult or two a few more words and ta da no warning from admin. Manners the Internet Chip18 comments, I didn't say it you did! Now grow up and run along before ya get a spanking. :surprise:


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> Ahh ... a bit different ... thank you for the clarification!


Still ... if you're working with a trainer and you still have questions ...

I'm sorry I don't know your trainer or their qualifications but in my view 
any trainer that does not recommend "Place or Sit on the Dog" is not going to be of much help to you. 

I did say you can't fix this in three days but ... are you working between then and now??

If you have the time?? Try this ... see the link on "Sit on the Dog" find a spot out of the way where "men" abound ...not a Bar.  
You say "nothing to the dog" zero corrections, you just "Sit." 

Start at home zero distractions with a leash indoors, so the dog gets the "concept" and then move on to distractions. 

Do that, close enough to observe but not so close as to "encourage interaction," out of the way. Again "Zero" interaction with people ... if someone ask to pet her the answer is "No she's in training." 

Even with the worst of the worst ... that is a "Zero" risk approach. If you are unsure you can keep people out of your dogs face ... then yes use a muzzle. "Bubble Dawg protocol ie a "Dog that needs a muzzle to be safe in public."

The rest ... is in my post.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

ipopro said:


> Amazingly enough you tell on yourself. Throw a few words around add a few links a insult or two a few more words and ta da no warning from admin. Manners the Internet Chip18 comments, I didn't say it you did! Now grow up and run along before ya get a spanking. :surprise:


Well ... in as much as I am in the manners and the internet, thread, the appropriate response is this:


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> Now the current problem is I am having several guests over this weekend 3 of them being men who she has never met before. I am hoping to utilize this situation to help her with her fear and hopefully work past some of her barking.


In this case, I'd just put here away and try working on it under different circumstances. A time when there isn't too much going on that can make it tough for you to be sure exactly what she's bothered by in that moment. When you're working on a problem, its easier if you eliminate all the variables and concentrate on the exact problem.


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## MMcCoy (May 12, 2016)

Chip18 said:


> Still ... if you're working with a trainer and you still have questions ...
> 
> I'm sorry I don't know your trainer or their qualifications but in my view
> any trainer that does not recommend "Place or Sit on the Dog" is not going to be of much help to you.
> ...


No my trainer has not recommended that, we did puppy training with petsmart, then I found one online who seems qualified (maybe I'll reconsider that now, which is in my opinion one of the main points of this group to almost judge trainers by:laugh2. 

She has taken a lot of work (her past before I got her really took a toll on her) and we are making progress she has had huge strides especially here lately (I've been bringing friends over and having her greet them trying different things that help her calm down. She finally let my "guinea pig" friend pet her last week), I'm hoping she will pass this "test" with flying colors and do great, but I want to be as prepared as I can be incase she doesn't handle it well. 


I really appreciate the advice and the "sit on the dog" I will start working with her on that when I get home.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

A muzzle is a good safety back up during training or unavoidable situations like the vets, but if it is possible the dog could actually bite or attack due to stress, it would be a bad idea, in my opinion. Meaning I'd almost always keep a muzzled dog leashed and under control. The muzzle is just a worst-case back-up. 

A dog can get out of a cloth muzzle, they can muzzle punch and do some damage, or they could even bite through the muzzle.

And if dogs are doing any of those things, they aren't learning a thing about being social and welcoming to strangers. Police K9s are muzzle trained, and not to be friendly. So be careful in how you use a muzzle. Totally fine for safety back up but not a means to an end as far as training or socialization goes. 

Introducing guests at the door can be a charged situation. Place command is fine, or take the easy way and put the dog(s) outside for a bit. It can be especially bad if the dog is barking behind a door or gate at the guests, and then released to "say hello". An insecure dog could channel that pent up frustration into a bite.

I don't really use treats for guest introductions but it's not a bad idea as long as the dog isn't getting lured too close for comfort by treats. Or a toy, if guests want to interact with the dogs, I often give the guests a tennis ball and chuck-it and have them play some fetch- goes a long way in building trust. And the dog has a job to do as well. 

Or, if I just don't want to deal with dogs, I'll leave all but the most naturally friendly dogs out of the way for the duration of the visit. It's not a bad option. 

If we go for a hike, or the guests want to play fetch with the dogs, then we can do that with the dogs without all the extra excitement that often comes with introductions at the door of a house.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

MadLab said:


> If a dog is barking at you, would you walk up to it with you hand out saying hey boy/girl?


Yes, I do it all the time. Are you afraid of dogs?



ipopro said:


> The dog will smell them long before they get to the bag or the person I assure you! Anyway, you have plenty of response here, Best of luck to you and yours!
> 
> Next time I come by i'll throw a few treats at your dog, and see if that helps anything!


I agree. A dog does not have to be up close and personal to smell a person.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MMcCoy said:


> No my trainer has not recommended that, we did puppy training with petsmart, then I found one online who seems qualified (maybe I'll reconsider that now, which is in my opinion one of the main points of this group to almost judge trainers by:laugh2.
> 
> She has taken a lot of work (her past before I got her really took a toll on her) and we are making progress she has had huge strides especially here lately (I've been bringing friends over and having her greet them trying different things that help her calm down. She finally let my "guinea pig" friend pet her last week), I'm hoping she will pass this "test" with flying colors and do great, but I want to be as prepared as I can be incase she doesn't handle it well.
> 
> ...


Ugh ... I don't like to judge trainers but there are "concepts" on "Dog Training Philosophies" and they break down into in my view ... those who believe in teaching a dog to "Make Good Choice" and give "Consequences for Poor Choices" and those "Who Don't."

Based on your question, I'd speculate yours is the latter?? But the "stuff I'm speaking of is the "Four Quadrants of Classical Operant Conditioning" ...yes I know. 

But ...my thing is to KISS for people, so in nutshell FQOCC:






So my speculation on your trainer is based on that. At any rate ... one thing that is consitant among Dog Trainers (oh and I am not a pro but the information I source "for" people comes from them, my experiance with dogs .. tends to follow those I tend to post ... the rest of the story. ) But ..*."the only thing Three Dog Trainers will agree on ... is what one of them is doing wrong."* 

But ... you don't need to know any of that to do "what you need" ... if in essence ... you "Flank" the dog get around the "issue" without directly confronting it. Show the dog how you "expect her to behave and in the "process" teach her to chill." The dog learns to "Make Good Choices" by being shown what you want.
,
Conflict free pretty much that simple in my view/experiance.


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## MMcCoy (May 12, 2016)

Chip18 said:


> Ugh ... I don't like to judge trainers but there are "concepts" on "Dog Training Philosophies" and they break down into in my view ... those who believe in teaching a dog to "Make Good Choice" and give "Consequences for Poor Choices" and those "Who Don't."
> 
> Based on your question, I'd speculate yours is the latter?? But the "stuff I'm speaking of is the "Four Quadrants of Classical Operant Conditioning" ...yes I know.
> 
> ...



This is my first dog I have had as an "adult" so this is my first experience with having to deal with dog trainers and all of that.

I really do appreciate all the advice and tips! I have not studied up to much on dog training philosophies, I just ask my questions here or google :laugh2:

I have some studying to do!


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

I said


> If a dog is barking at you, would you walk up to it with you hand out saying hey boy/girl?


MaWL said


> Are you afraid of dogs?


 No just afraid of you. lol

MaWl


> I do it all the time.


 Of course you do.

Point is to respect the dog in animal terms. I would stand my ground and allow the dog to see me and smell me. Turning head slightly away also lets dog know you are not into any conflict as you are not eye balling him. I would not approach too soon, or back away. I would give the dog a chance and i would wait to see if bark stopped or lessened.

No need to push him into retreat or attack for no reason. I find my method is good for meeting many dogs. Don't always need to be so aware on greetings as most dogs are harmless. Still I like to let them know I'm cool. 

What is you method of meeting a barking dog??


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> A dog does not have to be up close and personal to smell a person.


You watch many dogs. They get right up and close on sniffing a new person. They do not air scent when they want information. They put there nose as close as possible to the person or dog for that matter.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

MadLab said:


> I said
> 
> MaWL said No just afraid of you. lol
> 
> ...


That varies with where the barking is coming from. Alert? Fear? Aggression? Happy? Excited? Dogs bark for a variety of reasons. Even breed can be a deciding factor.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Muskeg said:


> A muzzle is a good safety back up during training or unavoidable situations like the vets, but if it is possible the dog could actually bite or attack due to stress, it would be a bad idea, in my opinion. Meaning I'd almost always keep a muzzled dog leashed and under control. The muzzle is just a worst-case back-up.
> 
> A dog can get out of a cloth muzzle, they can muzzle punch and do some damage, or they could even bite through the muzzle.
> 
> ...


 Yes ... "Bubble Dog" a muzzle helps the dog and owner to relax. I don't think this is a hard core case?? But clearly an "unpredictable" dog as regards "people" I don't make distinctions as to who. or why.

But ... the muzzle would be used while working on this, so yes as a "Safety Backup" while walking and finding people to ignore" ... "crap happens," so a muzzle would not hurt for awhile.

For me my dog's "job" was to simply stand "calmly and observe my interactions with strangers ... his job was to do "Nothing." Once I understood that he understood that, I dropped the use of the muzzle. 



Muskeg said:


> I don't really use treats for guest introductions but it's not a bad idea as long as the dog isn't getting lured too close for comfort by treats.


 LOL for me ... I am actually "hostile" to use of treats for people issues dogs ... I consider it as "treating people" into my dog's space ... a dog can take a treat and still bite! 

I'd just as soon not take the chance of that happening myself, others are of course free to do as they see fit.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

MadLab said:


> You watch many dogs. They get right up and close on sniffing a new person. They do not air scent when they want information. They put there nose as close as possible to the person or dog for that matter.


I know this. I have no problem approaching or making friends with dogs, have been like that since childhood. A dog does not have a choice but to airscent a person unless one is going to put a clothes pin on the dog's nose and I haven't seen that happen, but if you think a dog can't smell you from across the way, you very much under estimate their sense of smell.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MMcCoy said:


> This is my first dog I have had as an "adult" so this is my first experience with having to deal with dog trainers and all of that.
> 
> I really do appreciate all the advice and tips! I have not studied up to much on dog training philosophies, I just ask my questions here or google :laugh2:
> 
> I have some studying to do!


LOL ... no one does!! I ran smack dap into it in "Furbaby" land!* BoxerWorld* not to be confused with* BoxerForum. *

I was the Bad Dawg in the Dog Park, to many restrictions you can't post links to outside "dog Sites" so it was always, he said she said ... I did manage to leave as a member in good standing ... good luck to anyone there that finds themselves with a "Boxer" with serious issues. over there.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> if you think a dog can't smell you from across the way, you very much under estimate their sense of smell.


A dog can smell something buried 6 foot under the ground, and can pick a scent up from a long way away. But I do not see my dog sniffing poles from a distance. It gets in and sniffs the actual pole.

Same with people. If they don't care fine. But if it is nervous i'd wait till it was comfortable enough to get close to a person and sniff them and get a proper sniff, before I'd like that person talking to the dog or offering them treats.

I'd prefer people ignore the dog and wait til it is obviously calm and relaxed before any interaction, no matter what the temperament of the dog is.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Sigh ... people who know what they are doing ...

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/chat-room/633898-manners-internet-agendas.html


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

MadLab said:


> A dog can smell something buried 6 foot under the ground, and can pick a scent up from a long way away. But I do not see my dog sniffing poles from a distance. It gets in and sniffs the actual pole.
> 
> Same with people. If they don't care fine. But if it is nervous i'd wait till it was comfortable enough to get close to a person and sniff them and get a proper sniff, before I'd like that person talking to the dog or offering them treats.
> 
> I'd prefer people ignore the dog and wait til it is obviously calm and relaxed before any interaction, no matter what the temperament of the dog is.


Sounds like you have been on the wrong end of a dog's fear one time too many, or maybe they sense your fear.

I don't care if a dog gets a proper sniff or not. I care about the dog's whole body language and whether it is trusting enough for interaction.


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

MadLab said:


> A dog can smell something buried 6 foot under the ground, and can pick a scent up from a long way away. But I do not see my dog sniffing poles from a distance. It gets in and sniffs the actual pole.
> 
> Same with people. If they don't care fine. But if it is nervous i'd wait till it was comfortable enough to get close to a person and sniff them and get a proper sniff, before I'd like that person talking to the dog or offering them treats.
> 
> I'd prefer people ignore the dog and wait til it is obviously calm and relaxed before any interaction, no matter what the temperament of the dog is.


Do you own a German Shepherd? Have you ever owned a German Shepherd? If so please tell me what dog...?


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

OP, this could either go very well it well not.. 

Start working on a bomb proof "stay" or "place". 

Have a muzzle ready, I prefer the basket muzzle to a nylon one. 

The dog needs to remain on leash at ALL times the guests are out and about. If alcohol is going to be involved, put her up. Period. 

I would not ask or have the guests interact with her at all. They should 100% ignore her. No throwing treats, no trying to pet, no talking to her. Nothing. She will be on a leash or in her crate or "place". Give her solid direction, do not allow her to fixate on anyone person. 

If you feel you need a break, put her in the crate. Use it liberally. This is not the situation in which to push her.


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

MadLab said:


> I said
> 
> MaWL said No just afraid of you. lol
> 
> ...



Have you ever had Kennel Duty with 10-25 of the nastiest killing machines you have ever seen in your life?

Sorry Sir. I didn't clean the kennels or feed the dogs because the dogs were barking and growling at me... Can I have my next mission now, I promise I'll do my best to protect and defend this squad, platoon, company, battalion, division, Branch of service, all military members on the battle field and off and this GREAT NATION! Sir. yes Sir.

:laugh2::laugh2:


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

I own mongrels Ipopro, as if you don't already know. Chin waggin away with mawl no doubt.

I trained in local gsd club and have handled some gsd's, and many more breeds not that it'll make a difference to you.

Still think my info is relative in this case.


EDit: As for you next post, I've no doubt your great


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

MadLab said:


> I own mongrels Ipopro, as if you don't already know. Chin waggin away with mawl no doubt.
> 
> I trained in local gsd club and have handled some gsd's, and many more breeds not that it'll make a difference to you.
> 
> ...


Now how would I know that?

I have no doubt your.... oooop's I mean YOU'RE as in you are great also!

As in anything we must always consider the source. :wink2:


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

MadLab said:


> I own mongrels Ipopro, as if you don't already know. Chin waggin away with mawl no doubt.
> 
> I trained in local gsd club and have handled some gsd's, and many more breeds not that it'll make a difference to you.
> 
> ...


I'm not great yet but aspire to be some day. I listen and learn from great leaders and my experience on and off the battle field and in life.

Here's one for example (General George Patton)

"Be seated."

"Men, this stuff that some sources sling around about America wanting out of this war, not wanting to fight, is a crock of bullsh*t. Americans love to fight, traditionally. All real Americans love the sting and clash of battle.

You are here today for three reasons. First, because you are here to defend your homes and your loved ones. Second, you are here for your own self respect, because you would not want to be anywhere else. Third, you are here because you are real men and all real men like to fight. When you, here, every one of you, were kids, you all admired the champion marble player, the fastest runner, the toughest boxer, the big league ball players, and the All-American football players. Americans love a winner. Americans will not tolerate a loser. Americans despise cowards. Americans play to win all of the time. I wouldn't give a hoot in **** for a man who lost and laughed. That's why Americans have never lost nor will ever lose a war; for the very idea of losing is hateful to an American.

You are not all going to die. Only two percent of you right here today would die in a major battle. Death must not be feared. Death, in time, comes to all men. Yes, every man is scared in his first battle. If he says he's not, he's a liar. Some men are cowards but they fight the same as the brave men or they get the **** slammed out of them watching men fight who are just as scared as they are. The real hero is the man who fights even though he is scared. Some men get over their fright in a minute under fire. For some, it takes an hour. For some, it takes days. But a real man will never let his fear of death overpower his honor, his sense of duty to his country, and his innate manhood.

Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best and it removes all that is base. Americans pride themselves on being He Men and they ARE He Men. Remember that the enemy is just as frightened as you are, and probably more so. They are not supermen.

GOOGLE it and read the rest if you like! I'm tired of editing for those offended by such brutally honest language...

I FEAR NO DOG, MAN or BEAST I assure you!

This will usually bring the dog to my side and if not, then I take the bite. More than 1 I assure you.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

:thumbup:Fascinating subject but way off topic.I'll bet if you started a thread about famous and inspiring speeches in the chat forum you could get a great discussion going.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Dog training is not all about power and aggression or being a warrior. Especially reactive dogs and fearful dogs in a domestic situation. There is a subtlety that you may not possess for some cases. 

Not saying I possess it but I try to communicate how i see dogs and how to approach them in different situations as like this thread. Maybe you are not into picking points and discussing them rationally. You'd rather dismiss my opinion. Thats fine by me. It's not gonna stop me expressing myself. 

Obviously you bring a lot of experience to the table in dog handlying, I'm looking forward to actually hearing some insights at some stage.

I admire heros in a society and if you are one, then that is great, not being sarcastic here and I wish you all the best with that. Some one being them self and living a peaceful life with integrity is equally as admirable in my eyes.


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

dogma13 said:


> :thumbup:Fascinating subject but way off topic.I'll bet if you started a thread about famous and inspiring speeches in the chat forum you could get a great discussion going.


I'll pass but thanks for the invitation!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

... "addressing" no one in particular .... but have to say .. that yes* "Madlab" your info is "Relative to Training Dogs." *Not everyone here is a "One Trick Pony." Having said that. "Living" with a specific Breed, yes requires research and understanding of breed "specific" characteristic. 

I discovered that on my own, ... training a "Dog"to be "CIVILl" however, does not require "specialized knowledge" a "Dog" is a "Dog." Pro Trainers that work with serious, Fighting, Biting Human, Aggressive Dog Killers don't have books on Dog Breeds from A to Z! If they do I have not heard them make mention of it??? NO what they say is a "Dog" is a "Dog."

Yes I got hammered by "Breed Specific characteristics because I lived with my GSD, but to actually train him and work thru the issue, just took what I already knew because I know how to train "DOGS."

To state the obvious no one that can actually train a dog with "Serious Freaking Issues" successfully ... gives a crap about what "Breed" of dog it is! They will, say yeah your dogs an "A-Hole" but "I" got this!

If people want to be one trick ponies ... it's a GSD site so go for it, but there are also "some" out here that "want to learn from Knowledgeable/Experienced "DOG" owners ... regardless of the "Breed" of "DOG" they have. Just saying.


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

MadLab said:


> Dog training is not all about power and aggression or being a warrior. Especially reactive dogs and fearful dogs in a domestic situation. There is a subtlety that you may not possess for some cases.
> 
> Not saying I possess it but I try to communicate how i see dogs and how to approach them in different situations as like this thread. Maybe you are not into picking points and discussing them rationally. You'd rather dismiss my opinion. Thats fine by me. It's not gonna stop me expressing myself.
> 
> ...



I see when you quote my opinions and start a debate I am suddenly dismissing yours. If you are implying that I am hand-lying I have no problem putting my money where my mouth is do you? Say 10 or 20K?

I have also noted where you have quoted comments that I have made in an irregular fashion, most honorable people would notify one of such quote to enable the opportunity for response with regard to said quote. Actions speak louder than words!

YOUR QUESTION which accompanied a few less than desirable remarks "What is you method of meeting a barking dog??"

As any REAL dog trainer knows every dog (Barking Dog) is different along with each and every scenario. So there are many correct responses to the vague question asked. I simply decided to let you know that there is not a DOG on this planet that I FEAR. In fact as I sit here replying there is a dog laying at my feet that was recently on death row and would have been sentenced to death (as all were in the past by this judge) for biting a human being. One that many on this forum said and would say to put down that dog!

With regard to Methods I have run the gamut over the past 30 years from the most brutal to where I am today (ALL positive & a whole lot of love)

At this point I have voiced my opinion and have spent way to long addressing your issues with said opinion. I guess we will wait for the result and all hope that it is a positive one for the OP and their dog!

I suggest you get on the other end of the leash a few times and earn a whole new perspective. I always need a willing decoy/helper in training exercises. I'll work your dogs will you work mine? 

All the best to you and yours!

GOD, HONOR, COUNTRY!

:smile2:


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

Chip18 said:


> ... "addressing" no one in particular .... but have to say .. that yes* "Madlab" your info is "Relative to Training Dogs." *Not everyone here is a "One Trick Pony." Having said that. "Living" with a specific Breed, yes requires research and understanding of breed "specific" characteristic.
> 
> I discovered that on my own, ... training a "Dog"to be "CIVILl" however, does not require "specialized knowledge" a "Dog" is a "Dog." Pro Trainers that work with serious, Fighting, Biting Human, Aggressive Dog Killers don't have books on Dog Breeds from A to Z! If they do I have not heard them make mention of it??? NO what they say is a "Dog" is a "Dog."
> 
> ...


Just FYI,

I have and continue to work with all types of breeds. I train for LED's Explosives, Narcotics, Patrol, SAR etc. among many other things.

Why on earth do you continue to address my comments and in this case simply state "addressing" no one in particular, when it is obvious who asked the question which is the subject of your comment? Do you need attention that badly or are you scared of an admin/moderator let alone a DOG or real human being?

I find it hilarious, Absurd but hilarious! BOTH of you neither of which knows the difference between your & you're. NUFF SAID!

Nice try though you silly fellas!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> ... "addressing" no one in particular .... but have to say .. that yes* "Madlab" your info is "Relative to Training Dogs." *Not everyone here is a "One Trick Pony." Having said that. "Living" with a specific Breed, yes requires research and understanding of breed "specific" characteristic.
> 
> I discovered that on my own, ... training a "Dog"to be "CIVILl" however, does not require "specialized knowledge" a "Dog" is a "Dog." Pro Trainers that work with serious, Fighting, Biting Human, Aggressive Dog Killers don't have books on Dog Breeds from A to Z! If they do I have not heard them make mention of it??? NO what they say is a "Dog" is a "Dog."
> 
> ...


No offense or disrespect meant, but 9 out of 10 times when a person comes to this forum with a problem dog, the most experienced of people will recommend a trainer "with German Shepherd experience". If breed does not matter, why do you think so many that train and have experience concur on this one thing?


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

ipopro said:


> I simply decided to let you know that there is not a DOG on this planet that I FEAR.


Well of course...it's just a dog....but....ya ever seen a shark's eyes? You know the thing about a shark, he's got... lifeless eyes, black eyes, like a doll's eye. When he comes at ya, doesn't seem to be livin'. Until he bites ya and those black eyes roll over white. And then, ah... then you hear that terrible high pitch screamin' and the ocean turns red in spite of all the poundin' and the hollerin' they all come in and rip you to pieces.

Dogs.....ain't nothing... except maybe for those pesky North Korean Manchurian hunting dogs that have been starved for three days.


SuperG


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

SuperG said:


> Well of course...it's just a dog....but....ya ever seen a shark's eyes? You know the thing about a shark, he's got... lifeless eyes, black eyes, like a doll's eye. When he comes at ya, doesn't seem to be livin'. Until he bites ya and those black eyes roll over white. And then, ah... then you hear that terrible high pitch screamin' and the ocean turns red in spite of all the poundin' and the hollerin' they all come in and rip you to pieces.
> 
> Dogs.....ain't nothing... except maybe for those pesky North Korean Manchurian hunting dogs that have been starved for three days.
> 
> ...


Interesting analogy, you left out the most important part of the whole thing. If a shark attacks you GOUGE the eyes and the shark will retreat period!

The purpose of what you described "eyes roll back" is to protect the eye as it is it's most vulnerable point.

NOw how would I know that? In less than 1 minute + type hunt & peck time!


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

SuperG said:


> Well of course...it's just a dog....but....ya ever seen a shark's eyes? You know the thing about a shark, he's got... lifeless eyes, black eyes, like a doll's eye. When he comes at ya, doesn't seem to be livin'. Until he bites ya and those black eyes roll over white. And then, ah... then you hear that terrible high pitch screamin' and the ocean turns red in spite of all the poundin' and the hollerin' they all come in and rip you to pieces.
> 
> Dogs.....ain't nothing... except maybe for those pesky North Korean Manchurian hunting dogs that have been starved for three days.
> 
> ...


Dah dah ....dah dah......dahdahdahdah:gonefishing:


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)




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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Ipopro said: Interesting analogy, you left out the most important part of the whole thing. If a shark attacks you GOUGE the eyes and the shark will retreat period! The purpose of what you described "eyes roll back" is to protect the eye as it is it's most vulnerable point. NOw how would I know that? In less than 1 minute + type hunt & peck time!

Guess it depends on where you got bit... Sharks tend to bite and do the head shake things, so getting those little eyes while being torn apart and drug deeper into the sea (especially if bit in an area where you don't have utilization of body or can't reach) might be a bit tough... Although if I'm ever in that situation, you better believe I'm going for those beady eyes.. Nose is supposed to be sensitive too... Probably for most animals... 

A little further off topic, but on topic for noses.. My dogs are SAR dogs and so their sense of smell is tuned up high because of the practice they have with it.. My mom saw my boy the other day and was being cutsie with him and kind of gently 'beeped' (honked) his nose... He sniffed and snorted for 5 minutes after that, wagging his tail and sneezing.. Was funny (in a mean way.. She did it gently, but I wouldn't want my nose beeped either) but obvious how sensitive those noses can be.. Poor dog had to spend the better part of the day recalibrating his nose, lol..


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

dogma13 said:


> Dah dah ....dah dah......dahdahdahdah:gonefishing:



LOL....you got it......great speech Shaw gives...

Just doing my part to add to the ridiculousness......


SuperG


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> No offense or disrespect meant, but 9 out of 10 times when a person comes to this forum with a problem dog, the most experienced of people will recommend a trainer "with German Shepherd experience". If breed does not matter, why do you think so many that train and have experience concur on this one thing?


Oh please ... "you" don't need qualifications to ask me a question. 

But since you asked for "my" answer happy to give it. When people come on here looking for a trainer ... well ... they have a GSD so of course GSD people are going to refer them to a trainer experienced in GSD's. 

It certainly does no harm to do that ... but is it necessary?? In my opinion and experience "NO." 

What they need is a "Trainer Experienced in Aggressive DOG" rehab. And there are not a lot of them out there. And by and large the vast majority of them that are out there and that do "successfully" rehab such dogs use all Four QOCC as do most GSD K9 trainers ... I would imagine so as it "happens" there is an overlap. 

And I seriously doubt anyone that comes here looking for help has any idea what the Four QOCC are??Well if they go to an experienced competent trainer of GSD ... they get what they "need" by default. 


Moving on how do I "know" that being able to train (qualification here) serious dogs is good enough ... well because I did it! 

When I arrived here ... I did not need help to rehab my dog. What caught me by surprise was, "Breed Specific Behaviour" "Pack Behaviour and H/A" because I lived with him. 

I got it done and I still did not to know "anything" about GSD's to do so. I already knew "what to do" but because I lived with him the how and why of the "changes" was a mystery to me, it caught me off guard.

"Pro's" that successfully rehab aggressive "Dogs" don't ask those why questions "owners" do. In "my" view it's pretty much that simple.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Oh please ... "you" don't need qualifications to ask me a question.
> 
> But since you asked for "my" answer happy to give it. When people come on here looking for a trainer ... well ... they have a GSD so of course GSD people are going to refer them to a trainer experienced in GSD's.
> 
> ...


Isn't that like saying that Lassie represents all, or even your average, Collie?


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

SuperG said:


> LOL....you got it......great speech Shaw gives...
> 
> Just doing my part to add to the ridiculousness......
> 
> ...


Here let me help you with some ridiculousness, there is a place on earth called Hawaii, specifically the North Shore of the Island of Oahu. I happened to live there and surfed what some call the Largest Waves in the World. I lived just up from SunSet Beach on the beach (My back yard) it was/is called Bone Yards for a reason. My neighbor (the only person on our street other than myself) my immediate neighbor, was a man named Eddie Rothman also referred to as (The 5 million dollar man) He is the Godfather of the Hawaiian Mafia (DA HUI) or some call the Black Short Boyz. He taught me the tactic in which I described to you as the result of us constantly surfing shark infested waters huge TIGERS constantly & GREAT WHITES occasionally (for my own safety of course).

Now that being said if you would like to confirm this ridiculousness, I have no problem providing you with either a direct cell number to the man or his office or his home , just google Da Hui get the number call and ask for Eddie and save my fingers energy if you would be so kind. 

Call him and ask him and while you are at it, ask him what my job was while I was there,

U.S. Army (Military Police)

Ask him how many dogs I had while I was there,

3-5 at all times

Ask him what breed personal dogs I had while there,

Dobermans and Chows

just call and ask him about the Haole Boi that lived next to him while he was building his mansion.

Need additional confirmation call Michael Willis or WYLANDS brother Bill...

LOL @ ridiculousness, the only ridiculousness I see is that in which can't be backed up with proof. Or those who run their mouth but won't put their money where their mouth is.

If you can't find the numbers please let me know and I will be happy to provide. I will also be happy to arrange a conference call as necessary to confirm. :grin2:

Now I'm going on a call with a trainer that taught Cesar would anyone care to join, he's been calling me all day! He's forgotten more than anyone here will ever learn about training dogs!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

ipopro said:


> Just FYI,
> 
> I have and continue to work with all types of breeds. I train for LED's Explosives, Narcotics, Patrol, SAR etc. among many other things.
> 
> ...














Fine .... I "understand" from "some"... Ok "one" ... that you actually know your stuff??

Frankly I can't tell?? Whatever your message is it gets lost in the unrelenting deluge of "crap!" David Trainer is also a K9 Handler and a War Vet as are many others here but unlike "you" they treat us "little people" with "RESPECT!" ANd by doing that ... they "Earn" ours as follow "Dog Owners" the service to country is a "GIVEN!"

Apparently ... "you":









But it said ...*"It's Not What You Say It's How You Say It." 
*









"My" goal is to win "Hearts and Minds" by the "persuasiveness" of my "arguments." And "try" and do that "insult and innuendo free" but hey ... that's "Me." 

When I first got on the Dog Boards, I like "you" was kinda like ...









And you know what ... "I" still had "followers" but I also spent a lot of time doing *"Crap like this."*

But hey if you don't care that "your message " whatever it may be is getting lost ... then continue to do as you do. 

I ... as do a few others, also say *"if people don't like my post, they don't have to read them."*

I "understand "there is an "ignore" button people can use to "censor away" members who get on there nerves ... "clearly ... I don't use it!


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Two ridiculous things. 1st. I actually wasted my time reading this whole thread. 2nd. Is how uninformative this thread has become. More of a **** swinging contest. I hope the OP finds a local trainer who can actually see the dog and help fix her issue.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Jaws as in Pe'ahi.....tow in...Maui that's where the " what some call the Largest Waves in the World." exist....NS Oahu....kid's stuff.. Boneyard is SS Oahu near Wailupes....Backyards in NS Oahu near Sunset beach...you be a bit confused.......but what would I know ?????


SuperG


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Agreed wholeheartedly with the last two posts...


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Isn't that like saying that Lassie represents all, or even your average, Collie?


 Hmm I don't really do Collies but I don't recall ... Lassie ... any issues that needed addressing?? Maybe her "obsessive" devotion to Timmy??

That aside a Human Biting Dog is a Human Biting Dog, regardless of "Breed" it can mess you up. 

If people "choose to believe" that there "GSD's" issues can only be solved by "GSD's" trainers go for it! Most likely the fact that they are number two on the list of most popular dogs has some bearing on the number of "GSD" specialist out there?? 

I don't know, I only advocate that people if they need help, they find "Competent Qualified" help and asking the right questions can help in that endeavor. If they feel more "comfortable with a "GSD" specialist ... go for it. 

The "Trainers" that "successfully" rehab dogs with "serious freaking issues" tend to say ... "lady your .. your dog is not that special."


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

cdwoodcox said:


> Two ridiculous things. 1st. I actually wasted my time reading this whole thread. 2nd. Is how uninformative this thread has become. More of a **** swinging contest. I hope the OP finds a local trainer who can actually see the dog and help fix her issue.


The key terms being "has become."


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Hmm I don't really do Collies but I don't recall ... Lassie ... any issues that needed addressing?? Maybe her "obsessive" devotion to Timmy??
> 
> That aside a Human Biting Dog is a Human Biting Dog, regardless of "Breed" it can mess you up.
> 
> ...


Nobody is saying or insinuating that only people that are familiar with GSDs can train GSDs. They are saying that people familiar with the breed are your best resources. As I posted in the comment by Michael Ellis on another thread, being familiar with the breed can give you a leg up on what you are dealing with.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Nobody is saying or insinuating that only people that are familiar with GSDs can train GSDs. They are saying that people familiar with the breed are your best resources. As I posted in the comment by Michael Ellis on another thread, being familiar with the breed can give you a leg up on what you are dealing with.


A leg up no disagreement at all, is GSD specific experiance "necessary" well "apparently" those that "Do" would say "NO." 

Stuff I know is stuff I Know, no matter how much the question gets "rephrased" my answer will be the same. 

If people want to "know" they can ask the "Experts" themselves:
https://www.facebook.com/Solid-K9-Training-140229622668254/?fref=photo

https://www.facebook.com/search/top/?q=the good dog

https://www.facebook.com/Dogmanship/?fref=ts

Those are a few I follow (All Breed Trainers) they can tell people same thing I said, it's a "DOG."


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

My bitch tends to be more vocal towards men as well......but tends to herd women more than men.....

SuperG


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> A leg up no disagreement at all, is GSD specific experiance "necessary" well "apparently" those that "Do" would say "NO."
> 
> Stuff I know is stuff I Know, no matter how much the question gets "rephrased" my answer will be the same.
> 
> ...


Just sayin' on a GSD site, maybe some GSD "experts" might be nice to see.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> Guess it depends on where you got bit


Good reason to not be swinging your asterisk when you visit Hawaii.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

BWAHAAAHA!! Some things would be hard to live down.. Even in the after life... Now the thread is way off topic.. Lol


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Steve Strom said: Good reason to not be swinging your asterisk when you visit Hawaii.


Or anywhere where sharks lurk..


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

Chip18 said:


> Fine .... I "understand" from "some"... Ok "one" ... that you actually know your stuff??
> 
> Frankly I can't tell?? Whatever your message is it gets lost in the unrelenting deluge of "crap!" David Trainer is also a K9 Handler and a War Vet as are many others here but unlike "you" they treat us "little people" with "RESPECT!" ANd by doing that ... they "Earn" ours as follow "Dog Owners" the service to country is a "GIVEN!"
> 
> ...


Thank you for sharing your thoughts and opinion. I'm not a gentleman nor do I pretend to be. I am however honest with myself and others and am willing to put my money where my mouth is. I have no use gaining respect from those who do not even respect themselves.

This thread is a perfect example of that. The OP and I were very respectful towards/with each other as the result of the honesty and true intent of the conversation.

I'll put it to you this way, just the quality of dogs I own should tell you something, it has nothing to do with money and everything to do with earning the confidence and respect of those selling said dogs! People wait in line(s) to get the dogs I own and some never get them! People dream of owning the dogs I own and are not able to even speak to the breeders or owners. It takes a certain qualification to gain access to this level of dog in many cases.

How does a Houlie Boy live and spend days of his life with one of the most respected & feared men in all of Hawaii again confidence & respect. I have open communication with said person to this day. I was the law and he the criminal the head criminal imagine that!

How does a person gain the knowledge and experience of the latest private work session put on by one of the most respected BITE WORK (HARD DOG) trainers alive today you earn it like I did. That's why my phone rang all day to discuss what happened at last weeks training session. I was quizzed and lectured to the point in which I had no choice but to learn. Why do they call me and talk to me and tell me what went on when there are people willing to pay hundreds and even thousands of dollars just to go to the session let alone the after party where the real lessons are learned upon reflection of the experience?

C'mon man!

How many more examples must I provide until you realize that I am not the person you describe me to be? I have zero time for games and I will tell you about your rearend in a second and I will listen to a respectable person tell me about my rearend in less than that. Unfortunately most people can't handle that!

Here let me share this with you and we can agree to disagree from here on.

IPOPRO: You can't handle the truth! Son, we live in a world that has walls. And those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, CHIP18? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for your friends here and you curse me. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that peoples feelings getting hurt, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives...You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall. You need me on that wall.
We use words like honor, code, loyalty...we use these words as the backbone to a life spent defending something. You use 'em as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it! I'd rather you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a **** what you think you're entitled to!

GOD HONOR COUNTRY!


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

SuperG said:


> Jaws as in Pe'ahi.....tow in...Maui that's where the " what some call the Largest Waves in the World." exist....NS Oahu....kid's stuff.. Boneyard is SS Oahu near Wailupes....Backyards in NS Oahu near Sunset beach...you be a bit confused.......but what would I know ?????
> 
> 
> SuperG


You are correct in my haste to write I did in error say bone yards instead of back yards and when you call Eddie please ask if some locals do not reference Back Yards as bone yards simply because of the tragic danger of the reef!

So now we are arguing the name of the beach LOL wow! Everything else remains the same. But what do I know!

I should have said some of the worlds largest waves. My apology!
"During the Winter months Waimea Bay is home to some of the worlds largest waves."


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

MMcCoy said:


> The live in boyfriend is an insurance agent :grin2: got the insurance covered!! LOL


I think I'd still put her away from all the commotion. If I'm following this right the risk of her biting someone's asterisks and getting her eye's gouged out could mean no more surfing, vet bills, and an increase in your rates. Just not worth it.


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

SuperG said:


> Jaws as in Pe'ahi.....tow in...Maui that's where the " what some call the Largest Waves in the World." exist....NS Oahu....kid's stuff.. Boneyard is SS Oahu near Wailupes....Backyards in NS Oahu near Sunset beach...you be a bit confused.......but what would I know ?????
> 
> 
> SuperG


You are correct in my haste to write I did in error say bone yards instead of back yards and when you call Eddie please ask if some locals do not reference Back Yards as bone yards simply because of the tragic danger of the reef!

So now we are arguing the name of the beach LOL wow! Everything else remains the same. But what do I know!

I should have said some of the worlds largest waves. My apology!
"During the Winter months Waimea Bay is home to some of the worlds largest waves."


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Full circle, that about sums it up. Nicely handled, Steve.


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

Steve Strom said:


> I think I'd still put her away from all the commotion. If I'm following this right the risk of her biting someone's asterisks and getting her eye's gouged out could mean no more surfing, vet bills, and an increase in your rates. Just not worth it.


But if you just put the dog in the crate and allow it to come out as it feels like it, you then allow the men visiting to throw treats at it while utilizing the ecollar button all of the above are eliminated except the surf will be up tomorrow at noon and we can all join in!


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## DMS92 (May 11, 2015)

I have 2 GSD's one is a WL and the other is WGSL. Wolf (the WL male) is similar to yours. He is totally indifferent and fine around kids, dogs, little dogs, women but really doesn't like grown men. I am careful on how I handle this but what worked in my experience was going at the dogs pace and the grown male practically doing what he can to ignore Wolf. When my father visited we tried to force it in a way where he would give Wolf attention, talk to him, give treats and try to make him like him. That actually seemed to make us backtrack and made things worse. My parents wouldn't even stay at my apartment for the first night because of him. The next day we all went on a very casual hike together and Wolf (my male) just naturally got use to him. So basically it helped to go somewhere neutral where my dad could just be around him and Wolf could get use to his presence. 

This is a process for any adult male with wolf. I got him at 3 years old and he only let the men he met within the first few weeks of me getting him have a "free pass" 

Go out and do something fun with who ever you are trying to get your dog to like and then after bring everybody back home to hang out. Worked for me. If Wolf can do it I bet yours can too!


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

ipopro said:


> So now we are arguing the name of the beach LOL wow!


I just figured someone who parsed through certain posts and cited "your" versus "you're" would be equally receptive to factual geographical corrections regarding the neighborhood they live in rather than call it "arguing".

SuperG


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

SuperG said:


> I just figured someone who parsed through certain posts and cited "your" versus "you're" would be equally receptive to factual geographical corrections regarding the neighborhood they live in rather than call it "arguing".
> 
> SuperG


I stood to be corrected in your mind on the name of the beach where I lived as the result of a FACTUAL local reference in which I used in my own description.

Keep in mind the trouble with this rat race is that even if you win, you're still a rat.

Despite the occasional typo or forgivable error I would usually never mention either. It is the repetitive use of the words even after being further educated that shows me that good grammar is what separates us from the animals!

P.S. Simply those posts directed at me.

Cant wait for Monday!


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## MMcCoy (May 12, 2016)

DMS92 said:


> I have 2 GSD's one is a WL and the other is WGSL. Wolf (the WL male) is similar to yours. He is totally indifferent and fine around kids, dogs, little dogs, women but really doesn't like grown men. I am careful on how I handle this but what worked in my experience was going at the dogs pace and the grown male practically doing what he can to ignore Wolf. When my father visited we tried to force it in a way where he would give Wolf attention, talk to him, give treats and try to make him like him. That actually seemed to make us backtrack and made things worse. My parents wouldn't even stay at my apartment for the first night because of him. The next day we all went on a very casual hike together and Wolf (my male) just naturally got use to him. So basically it helped to go somewhere neutral where my dad could just be around him and Wolf could get use to his presence.
> 
> This is a process for any adult male with wolf. I got him at 3 years old and he only let the men he met within the first few weeks of me getting him have a "free pass"
> 
> Go out and do something fun with who ever you are trying to get your dog to like and then after bring everybody back home to hang out. Worked for me. If Wolf can do it I bet yours can too!



Thank you! I've been working with her on this for a while (we've had a lot to work on with her) she has done really well with getting not quite over but less anxious with a lot of her issues(?) I don't know how to properly word that. 

I have gotten a lot of really great tips and am hoping all goes smoothly!


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## MMcCoy (May 12, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> I think I'd still put her away from all the commotion. If I'm following this right the risk of her biting someone's asterisks and getting her eye's gouged out could mean no more surfing, vet bills, and an increase in your rates. Just not worth it.


I am going to have her crate ready in the other room and keep a very close eye on her if she starts showing any signs of agitation not just anxiety I will put her straight up. I know Lay's body language pretty well and will be watching to see if it is getting to be too much for her.

I don't want to just keep her away when this could be a learning experience for her, that being said I am prepared to keep her away if need be, but I want to give her a chance first.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

MMcCoy said:


> I am going to have her crate ready in the other room and keep a very close eye on her if she starts showing any signs of agitation not just anxiety I will put her straight up. I know Lay's body language pretty well and will be watching to see if it is getting to be too much for her.
> 
> I don't want to just keep her away when this could be a learning experience for her, that being said I am prepared to keep her away if need be, but I want to give her a chance first.


I tend to look at things like this as two separate things. Temperament, which I don't think you can fix. Its hard wired in the dog, and training, which can give you a certain amount of control and teach the dog to behave. If its overwhelming, its too tough to train what you want. One thing I always think about is , what do you do if this doesn't work? If you put them out there and it doesn't work, what are you going to do?

You sound like you understand that already, so I doubt you'll do anything that's going to be a problem, just not the way I may do it. Have fun in Hawaii.


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## MMcCoy (May 12, 2016)

And side note what in the world happened to this post? Shark bites, surfing, and you vs you're? 

Thankfully all of that started after I got some helpful tips and ideas otherwise I'd be so lost. Heck I am so lost trying to sift through everything and find the advice in the middle of the nonsense. 

I understand getting off topic and I understand goofing off and having a good time but maybe PM about surfing and all of that so that when I am going back looking for tips to help my pup I don't have to sift through all the off topic-ness.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Just sayin' on a GSD site, maybe some GSD "experts" might be nice to see.


Again ...no disagreement. And if their are GSD Experts out there and they *"Show There Work" *and make themselves "Know," then I would find them and share it on both my "DOG" sites. 

I don't think there are any experts that specialize in "Doodle" rehab and I have heard some of those guys can be real A-Holes. My links ... would just fine for them "too" ... Just saying.


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## MMcCoy (May 12, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> I tend to look at things like this as two separate things. Temperament, which I don't think you can fix. Its hard wired in the dog, and training, which can give you a certain amount of control and teach the dog to behave. If its overwhelming, its too tough to train what you want. One thing I always think about is , what do you do if this doesn't work? If you put them out there and it doesn't work, what are you going to do?
> 
> You sound like you understand that already, so I doubt you'll do anything that's going to be a problem, just not the way I may do it. Have fun in Hawaii.


She has come a long way in her training I don't know how far back in the post you were able to get :laugh2: but she is doing better and her temperament isn't aggressive she has just had some hardships before I got her and is working on realizing that not all men are evil.

She over came her fear of cars (for the most part I don't think I'll ever get her to willingly jump in one but she has stopped shaking when she is in one), she used to flinch ever time someone raised their hand for any reason near her she hasn't done that in a while, and she is getting better on having men over. I am confident she will eventually relax and am hoping that she will yet again surprise me and grow with this experience. 

Her issues predominantly are stemming from lack of love and just horrible treatment (she is still only about 5.5 months old) so we're working on correcting this and just giving her lots of love, and like I said she has come a loooong way from when I first got her. 

As previously stated I'm not going to just throw her in and have blind faith that she is going to be great, I have my backup measures in place I.E. Kennel I am going to basically block off the back half of my house so she can still run around within her own space without people. There will be no alcohol involved with her loose. I just can't keep her up the entire weekend when this could be an excellent learning tool to help her.


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

MMcCoy said:


> And side note what in the world happened to this post? Shark bites, surfing, and you vs you're?
> 
> Thankfully all of that started after I got some helpful tips and ideas otherwise I'd be so lost. Heck I am so lost trying to sift through everything and find the advice in the middle of the nonsense.
> 
> I understand getting off topic and I understand goofing off and having a good time but maybe PM about surfing and all of that so that when I am going back looking for tips to help my pup I don't have to sift through all the off topic-ness.


Just hang out a while and you will find that when I reply to a post there is more often than not an invasion of **** that come swarming. Never mind all of that just stay focused on your topic.

Here contact this lady (Dyan) she is near you in the DFW area. I have not spoken to her in a couple years but she may know a decent trainer in that area that she can refer you to. Also ask her about her friend just about 1 hour north who has very nice German shepherds he may also know a few trainers. Hope this helps.
[email protected] Please let us know how it comes out in the wash. :wink2:


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## MMcCoy (May 12, 2016)

ipopro said:


> Just hang out a while and you will find that when I reply to a post there is more often than not an invasion of **** that come swarming. Never mind all of that just stay focused on your topic.
> 
> Here contact this lady she is near you in the DFW area. I have not spoken to her in a couple years but she may know a decent trainer in that area that she can refer you to. Also ask her about her friend just about 1 hour north who has very nice German shepherds he may also know a few trainers. Hopes this helps.
> [email protected] Please let us know how it comes out in the wash. :wink2:


See now that is what I'm talking about! :grin2: I appreciate the trainer!!! I will email her now!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Again ...no disagreement. And if their are GSD Experts out there and they *"Show There Work" *and make themselves "Know," then I would find them and share it on both my "DOG" sites.
> 
> I don't think there are any experts that specialize in "Doodle" rehab and I have heard some of those guys can be real A-Holes. My links ... would just fine for them "too" ... Just saying.


Huh? There are tons of trainers well versed in GSDs / Mals that have videos all over Youtube / internet.


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

MMcCoy said:


> See now that is what I'm talking about! :grin2: I appreciate the trainer!!! I will email her now!


She's a breeder but knows a tremendous amount of professionals in the industry including trainers i'm sure. If not her friend I can't remember his name he's also a breeder just north 1 hour or so probably does. Her email was hacked and she lost a ton of business and money etc... So I recovered her email (huge project) she during that time introduced me to him and I visited the kennel I can't recall the name. I hope these details help her to remember if necessary remind her of the time. These are pretty darn good GSD people and should not steer you wrong. :wink2: Very long time in the breed!


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Hey MM,

While I'm thinking about it- I think you should not use food or toys to start. When I do start using toys (game of fetch) I do so only after I am sure the dog is comfortable with the guest.

I didn't realize you still had a pup- 5.5 months is still very young. Whatever you do keep it positive for the pup. Never allow her to get into "fear mode" where she stops thinking and just starts being scared. I mean as much as possible. If it happens, get her in a safe place and just move on. 

Don't feel bad about putting her up. I've found that guests are very bad about listening to what I tell them to do around dogs, so don't expect much from the guests. 

A trainer might be able to help, but the pup is so young you have a great chance of turning her around, if she has a decent base temperament, just doing what you are doing. A trainer can assess her for you, if it's a good trainer, but to me it sounds like you are doing a great job.

I adopted a stray GSD who was about a year old at the time. She was super fearful of raised voices or hands or upright posture for a few weeks but bounced back really fast and I never saw fearful behavior from her again. Super solid girl now 10. Her base temperament was good, but she'd been dumped and been through a lot. Sometimes love and time is all it takes, and sometimes it's a deeper issues that will require a trainer. 

You may have already posted, but how long have you had her?


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## MMcCoy (May 12, 2016)

Muskeg said:


> Hey MM,
> 
> While I'm thinking about it- I think you should not use food or toys to start. When I do start using toys (game of fetch) I do so only after I am sure the dog is comfortable with the guest.
> 
> ...


I have been working with a trainer but from what I've been reading on here I'm questioning the trainers competency. 

I have had her for 4 months and she has over come so much in this time! That's why I'm hoping that this is like her other issues that just took trust to overcome.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MMcCoy said:


> She over came her fear of cars (for the most part I don't think I'll ever get her to willingly jump in one but she has stopped shaking when she is in one), she used to flinch ever time someone raised their hand for any reason near her she hasn't done that in a while, and she is getting better on having men over. I am confident she will eventually relax and am hoping that she will yet again surprise me and grow with this experience.


Arggg!! Frankly ... I was not done with the "off topic" comments. But what I am is good at ... is staying on point ... sigh.

If you sent your dog to a "competent, effective" trainer, they would not "care" about what "happened" to the dog in the past, useful information for formulating a plan of action sure, but not necessary .. dwelling on the past ... is an "owner" thing.

If the dog has a "car issue" they would address it. If the dog has a "car issue" and it is a problem for you?? Address it, train "Place" once the dog understands "Place" put her in the car and say "Place."

That's one option, option two ... "Feed the Dog in the Car." That is where she eats .. period! Give her fifteen minuets if she won't eat fine! Take her out do it again at the next meal time. 

Within 3 days ... she will figure it out ... car means "I get to eat!" And if you use "Place" your dog won't be "popping" out the car as soon as you open it.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

She is young and alot has to do with how you handle it (which is what Chip18 is often referencing)... We ponder and ruminate over past happenings, dogs live in the moment.. The past does shape initial reactions, but how things are handled, consistently, thereafter, is what will determine future reactions... Some situations require instant addressing with sterner measures, other situations require patience and repetition.. Just because we understand what we want out of the dog doesn't mean the dog understands, or is emotionally /physically /mentally able .. You have some great advice and you seem dedicated to resolving this (these) problems.. Hang in there, keep working at it and keep us posted


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Muskeg said:


> Don't feel bad about putting her up. I've found that guests are very bad about listening to what I tell them to do around dogs, so don't expect much from the guests.


LOL ... but of course the guest thing depends on the individual involved! For "me" ... I made it "Crystal Clear" ... "Don't even "think" about asking to touch my Dog!

My DIL lives out of State so "Rocky" had seen her off on and on for 7 years. She made "random visits" in that time, in all that time ... I'd never allowed her to "touch" him!

Last year my wife .. who back in the day "Roc's" out of control "Pack" behavior scared the crap out of!! 

Took "advantage" of my work with him. I was tired took a nap and I "assumed" she would enforce my rule. But "apparently" since "Mr Anal" was out of the picture my wife let her daughter greet Rocky??

I wake up, look for Rocky in the living room?? He's not there?? I go out back and there is "Rocky" standing calming beside my DIL smiling at me! 

The lesson I learned is that if your not a "Pro" and don't have "experiance" with dozens or hundreds if not thousands of dogs, it's harder to recognize when your job is done and time to: 










I tend to have "me" problems these days rather than "Dog" problems ... been working on it.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

MMMcoy,

Just a thought and maybe you already eliminated this approach or already tried it and it failed but....dependent on how good your leash/walking training obedience with your dog is....have you ever greeted your male guest(s) outside the house with your dog in an obedience mode....your dog dog starts to do its thing .....you place the dog back in your control ...correct if necessary and then after a period of time once your dog calms a bit.... turn the "controls" over to the target of your dog's barking and "uptightness"? My bitch is more reactive to men than women but not to any significant degree as you have described....but on an occasion or two...I have done this.... with male guests which my dog "perked" at a wee bit more than the the overall experience should be...more for them than me. I would accompany the person I gave the "reins" to but walk with them and give them the appropriate cues and commands to get the dog to perform the most basic obedience skills..if the person was inadequate in issuing the commands...I would instruct the dog properly and the behavior requested is adhered to. After a bit I would lag behind and let the two proceed under my supervision from a distance but still being able to control the dog...if necessary. I kind of have this feeling that in this particular scenario with my particular dog...the dog would allay some of its "demons" and find comfort in default behavior. The few times I did this....the relationship between the other person and my dog took a turn for the better and a perceived "trust" seemed to be the difference....if that makes any sense.

FWIW...I have been chastised for giving control over to someone else...there may be merit in that and I am open to criticism but I have seen no fallout from doing this regarding our bottom line bond.

SuperG


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Oh well ... if we are going to get back on topic and stuff ... yes the puppy is very young for "this to start being an issue??" Kinda odd usually they"suck you into "thinking" everything is great, they get more size and then "cop an attitude??" ... the whole "My dog changed, thing??"But ... no matter, the "treat" thing can easily lead people into trouble, still some use them some don't.

I'm in the "don't, to extremely limited use of treats camp" it's very easy to reward for the wrong behaviour! The easiest way to avoid that ... is to just not use treats at all.

On the other hand, the only trainer I've found that uses treats and "explains" when and how to do so correctly is "Bethany" she is also the only trainer I have found that has clips on training puppies in "Place."

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL39rA__veYgR4EvJoPQhwRlxZmW5H3IEm


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

Chip18 said:


> Oh well ... if we are going to get back on topic and stuff ... yes the puppy is very young for "this to start being an issue??" Kinda odd usually they"suck you into "thinking" everything is great, they get more size and then "cop an attitude??" ... the whole "My dog changed, thing??"But ... no matter, the "treat" thing can easily lead people into trouble, still some use them some don't.
> 
> I'm in the "don't, to extremely limited use of treats camp" it's very easy to reward for the wrong behaviour! The easiest way to avoid that ... is to just not use treats at all.
> 
> ...


Very good point, it is very important to realize that teaching one thing (one believes to be positive) can also affect another thing(s) in a negative way. One success can lead to 3 failures in other words!


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Thank you.. Appreciate you answering my questions ... This world has changed so much, lol! I've been very good at what I do and think I'm fairly diverse in 'real world' stuff but cyber world and wow.. I'm so far behind the ball, haha.. Thank you again for the explanation... 

Sorry OP for going off topic again.. Will try to being it back... 

How is it going? I know it has just been a day, but probably enough time to try and or sort through some of the suggestions given.. Rooting for you and your girl.. A pic would be cool too, if you don't mind (we all tend to love pics)... My girl is a bit cautious of men... She did like mile and half blind (totally unknown for her and me) trail training, with a person (male) she had never met and in area she'd never been before (so novel environment stuff).. He had hid in a tree over a very steep 150ft or more tall rise/Hill... She worked the trail beautifully, passed him as his scent was dropping off the tree and down into the valley below... We worked the scent pool out and she found him.. He climbed down, gave her reward and we talked for like five minutes... All the sudden, she starts barking, suddenly aware that she didn't know this person, lol.. We laughed and she investigated, this time as an actual awareness (she had been focused on her job: find the person, get reward, but not on who the person was) and got pets... She is aloof to outside her pack, so a couple of pets and she was done, but still really funny... Hasn't ever done that to a lady though...


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Chip18 said : I'm in the "don't, to extremely limited use of treats camp" it's very easy to reward for the wrong behaviour! The easiest way to avoid that ... is to just not use treats at all.

My school of thought, outside of SAR, where the need to make the find a HUGE deal will allow for loooong hrs working, but still with focus and motivation.... But for average obedience, occasionally, imo, no problem, but mostly all praise reward... 

While I don't expect my dogs to work for free (outside of basic commands and such) all the time, I also think the rewards system has been heavily favoring the dogs for a long time, and spoiled dogs that ONLY work if they smell/see a reward has been the byproduct (society too, but I won't go there, lol)...


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Hineni7 said:


> Chip18 said : I'm in the "don't, to extremely limited use of treats camp" it's very easy to reward for the wrong behaviour! The easiest way to avoid that ... is to just not use treats at all.
> 
> My school of thought, outside of SAR, where the need to make the find a HUGE deal will allow for loooong hrs working, but still with focus and motivation.... But for average obedience, occasionally, imo, no problem, but mostly all praise reward...
> 
> While I don't expect my dogs to work for free (outside of basic commands and such) all the time, I also think the rewards system has been heavily favoring the dogs for a long time, and spoiled dogs that ONLY work if they smell/see a reward has been the byproduct (society too, but I won't go there, lol)...


No by and large JQP and their "misuse" of treats is what gives the use of treats a bad name. Some trainers don't use treats at all, Peter Caine would be one of them:






Bailiff for one uses "praise" only he explains it well unfortunately ... I
did not save that one.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

I think food treats are more for the human then the dog, lol... Sure the dog gets to eat them, but people's minds suddenly think THEY HAVE to give the dog a food reward to do anything... So not true.. Some dogs need the added motivation until they 'get it', then praise works.. Some only seem to need praise and affection.. People seem to need to give treats.. Moderation in all things.. Healthy way to live


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

MMcCoy said:


> Lay is scared of men so if we have a guy friend over she will bark and growl, (she has never done anything aggressive just vocal) so I have started putting her up until she chills then she can come back out, she will still growl under her breath but she is doing much better with this.
> 
> Now the current problem is I am having several guests over this weekend 3 of them being men who she has never met before. I am hoping to utilize this situation to help her with her fear and hopefully work past some of her barking.
> 
> ...



I can't be bothered to read through all of the crap on this thread about who's is bigger, so please forgive me if this has already been suggested.
Since this is a sort of one time situation put your girl in her crate in another room when your weekend guests arrive. Try to keep her somewhere that she can hear them and smell them and let the situation quiet. You know your dog better then I do. If she seems settled and the guests are fairly calm, bring her out, on a leash and have her stay near you while things go on around her. 
If your guests are drinking, you may want to just keep her away. Let her let you know what she can and can't handle and if you have her out and she gets upset, remove her quietly and calmly to her crate.
And since I was seeing a lot of my dog is more expensive/better/badder then yours, I work almost entirely with poorly bred and/or poorly homed dogs. You know, the ones that get tossed out of cars and come from old barns and sheds, the ones with broken bones and broken hearts. I have had well over a thousand dogs through my doors, from just born to seniors, of every size and description, and I'm old and cranky. And before someone gets their knickers in a twist several hundred of those are going to be GSD's or crosses.
Don't put a muzzle on her and let her sort it out, that's called flooding, and it isn't cool for a scared dog just as it wasn't cool for scared horses. That is basically telling her you have disarmed her and abandoned her.
Keep loving her and you will be fine. She will get there and trust me it's worth the trip.


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## MMcCoy (May 12, 2016)

Hineni7 said:


> Thank you.. Appreciate you answering my questions ... This world has changed so much, lol! I've been very good at what I do and think I'm fairly diverse in 'real world' stuff but cyber world and wow.. I'm so far behind the ball, haha.. Thank you again for the explanation...
> 
> Sorry OP for going off topic again.. Will try to being it back...
> 
> How is it going? I know it has just been a day, but probably enough time to try and or sort through some of the suggestions given.. Rooting for you and your girl.. A pic would be cool too, if you don't mind (we all tend to love pics)... My girl is a bit cautious of men... She did like mile and half blind (totally unknown for her and me) trail training, with a person (male) she had never met and in area she'd never been before (so novel environment stuff).. He had hid in a tree over a very steep 150ft or more tall rise/Hill... She worked the trail beautifully, passed him as his scent was dropping off the tree and down into the valley below... We worked the scent pool out and she found him.. He climbed down, gave her reward and we talked for like five minutes... All the sudden, she starts barking, suddenly aware that she didn't know this person, lol.. We laughed and she investigated, this time as an actual awareness (she had been focused on her job: find the person, get reward, but not on who the person was) and got pets... She is aloof to outside her pack, so a couple of pets and she was done, but still really funny... Hasn't ever done that to a lady though...


It is still 10 am in Texas :laugh2: They will be here at 4. I have her kennel set up in my room and the hallway blocked off so she can roam from my room my bathroom and into the hallway if she gets overwhelmed. 

I am having them arrive at different times so she can meet my cousin (female) and her boyfriend first, then bring in the other two guys. I have sent out a group message to let me know when they pull up so I can go out and meet them then walk in together (thats how she handles guests best). I have also made it very clear about not grabbing for her and letting her come to them and that if they break the rule I will hurt them :laugh2: (I am the eldest of my generation in my family, that gets me some "oh crap we must listen to her points). 

We have been working on placing. She is doing pretty well with that, not perfect but ok. 

I will keep you posted for sure, as soon as I have something to post!


and of course here is a picture from this morning!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

MMcCoy said:


> It is still 10 am in Texas :laugh2: They will be here at 4. I have her kennel set up in my room and the hallway blocked off so she can roam from my room my bathroom and into the hallway if she gets overwhelmed.
> 
> I am having them arrive at different times so she can meet my cousin (female) and her boyfriend first, then bring in the other two guys. I have sent out a group message to let me know when they pull up so I can go out and meet them then walk in together (thats how she handles guests best). I have also made it very clear about not grabbing for her and letting her come to them and that if they break the rule I will hurt them :laugh2: (I am the eldest of my generation in my family, that gets me some "oh crap we must listen to her points).
> 
> ...


 
That's a solid plan. Again, you know your dog best. Just remember to get her put up before she gets stressed.
She may decide all the extra attention and treat potential is a good thing!


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## MMcCoy (May 12, 2016)

Sabis mom said:


> That's a solid plan. Again, you know your dog best. Just remember to get her put up before she gets stressed.
> She may decide all the extra attention and treat potential is a good thing!


Thats my hope! She has really surprised me a couple of times, especially here lately, so I'm hoping this is the biggest surprise yet!


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

She is beautiful.. Try to stay calm through it all. Your stress level rolls to her.. Deep breaths and steady nerves .. Good luck, I will be praying for you and her, and I look forward to hearing good news!


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## MMcCoy (May 12, 2016)

Ok so day one, she barked a lot on entering. After that she's been pretty good. She hasn't quite gotten comfortable with anyone yet, but she has sniffed and licked a couple. She is not a fan of cousins boyfriends brother, but we will see what tomorrow holds. She has pretty much just hovered next to me all day/night.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Well, it is a start...


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

*I just deleted a whole bunch of off topic posts that served no purpose other than to take up space. ENOUGH. Maybe a few people need a break from the board? 

ADMIN*


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Great!The sniffing and licking is a good thing.Sounds like she handled the situation without feeling overwhelmed and having to leave the room.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Great!

I think you are handling this well. And if it's a good experience for her, that should help build a foundation for her as she grows into adulthood. Experiences in puppyhood are very important. Keep it positive and make sure the guests are safe, but I think you are doing really well.

Please update when you get the chance. I am so glad this is working out for you.


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## MMcCoy (May 12, 2016)

Ok, day two! She has only growled when the attention gets directly pointed to her then she'll growl and hide behind me from whoever was trying to call her. 

Other than that she has been in the same room as everyone and has been fine. One of my guests is sleeping on a blow up mattress in the living room and lay decided to take it over so she brought all her toys to the blow up mattress and laid there playing lol!! 

Yesterday she refused to eat (understandably) but today she ate 3 cups of kibble! 

Not perfect but not bad!! When I get on my computer I'll update a picture of her bed takeover 


P.S. Thanks admin!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Great job!

Sounds like you are well on your way. Remember to keep it positive and when she does hide behind you don't coddle her.

Treats might fit in well here. Or a favorite toy.


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## MMcCoy (May 12, 2016)

When she's been hiding I've had them squeak her toy then throw it. She can't resist fetch. That is what made her warm up to my cousin was the game of fetch.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

You didn't need anyones help, you got this!

You have done a great job by the sounds of it, and you both will benefit down the road.

Important with fearful dogs, she needs to know you have her back and will protect her but always be careful not to cross that line to babying and comforting. That rewards the fear response and will make it worse.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MMcCoy said:


> Ok, day two! She has only growled when the attention gets directly pointed to her then she'll growl and hide behind me from whoever was trying to call her.


Aww ... Ok no lecture here. Just some insight into your observations. 

That situation was to much "Forward pressure" on her at that time and at that moment. Fight or flight ... "relieve" the pressure. That would be why I use the turn of phrase ..."tricking people into my dog's face with the use of treats." If a dog does not have "People Issues" it doesn't really matter if you use treats .. they were going to greet them anyway. The treat is just a bonus, for a "choice" they already made. But if a dog has "People Issues" they could lose focus on the "threat" go for the treat ...take it and then look up and go "Holy crap where did this guy come from!!!??"  

Too much forward "pressure" out of "nowhere???" That's how people get bit, if they "overdo" the treat thing with dogs with "people issues." That is how I "assume" it goes wrong based on what I understand, I've heard. I have no first hand knowledge on getting the "People" thing wrong. 

I did not use "treats" with people and kept people "out of my dogs face." I "Showed" him how I expected him to behave (treat) free (you don't get a reward for not acting like a tool, it's expected) ... worked out fine. 



MMcCoy said:


> Other than that she has been in the same room as everyone and has been fine. One of my guests is sleeping on a blow up mattress in the living room and lay decided to take it over so she brought all her toys to the blow up mattress and laid there playing lol!!
> 
> Yesterday she refused to eat (understandably) but today she ate 3 cups of kibble!
> 
> ...


Well then that sounds great ... it sounds like she is getting the "time" she needs to make "adjustments and "Good Choices." And actually, "on there turf," is where they have the most problems with "company!"

A well done, plan of action you've got going ... congrads!


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## MMcCoy (May 12, 2016)

"I guess guests are ok if having them here means I get a bed in the living room" - Lay :laugh2:


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

LOL ... now if you could get to them to come back .. soon, they'd start to be part of the "pack" and not "strangers."


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## MMcCoy (May 12, 2016)

Chip18 said:


> LOL ... now if you could get to them to come back .. soon, they'd start to be part of the "pack" and not "strangers."


Unfortunately they live in Houston and I'm in Dallas :crying: I wish they could come up more to be in my "pack"


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Do you play electric bass? (pup looks great).


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## MMcCoy (May 12, 2016)

[/LEFT]​


Muskeg said:


> Do you play electric bass? (pup looks great).


No I don't the live in boyfriend does, I play piano. :laugh2:


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Nice. I play bass. 

Being a musician can help with dog training, I think. Getting the timing right and being aware of what the dog is doing. Melody, rhythm. Dog training is all about move-counter-move. Kind of like jamming with a band.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I'd say she looks pretty relaxed. You did good, both of you. 

In between visits keep working on obedience and basic training.

And if you don't mind me making a suggestion, see if you can pick up or build some simple agility obstacles if you have a yard. There is some really cool connection between scared dogs and agility. It helps to build their confidence I think. Gives them a job and teaches them focus. Just think of stuff for her to get on top of and climb through and over. Tunnels are awesome, the kids ones are cheaper here.


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