# My GSD just ate a Labrador.



## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Okay, so she didn't actually _eat_ her, but here's the story... Its a little long (sorry) but I want to make sure you guys have all the info.

HISTORY -
Gia and Three (thats the labs name) met when Gia was about 10months and Three was a year and a half. The girls saw each other nearly every day, got along great, Three was dominate as she was older. The girls are now 8 and 9. Both live with other dogs, have dominate personalities, but generally get along with dogs they meet (ie walks, dog park, friends dogs). The 4 "fights" that Gia has been in, have all been short scuffles over a ball. As a rule of thumb tho, I describe her as having a chip on her shoulder... If she growls to let the other dog know the ball is hers and the other dog lets up, then things are fine. If the other dog growls back - things escalate! (I'm usually able to step in before it gets to this point tho)

EVENT -
So the other day the girls meet after they hadnt seen each other in 3yrs. Both were off leash, on neutral grounds at a park. They approached each other, got into posture and slowly did the sniff over. Ears and tails erect - tails slightly wagging... no one growled or anything, then both dogs went after each other... Gia grabbed Three in one bite behind the ear and held on the duration of the fight. The way the dogs were positioned (sort of in a twisted way) it was hard for us to get in there and break the fight up... Three was screaming and it seemed like the more she screamed, the harder Gia would bite.

AFTERMATH -
We get them apart, walk to separate areas of the park to inspect the dogs. (We didn't see Three's injury at the time). Since both were "fine" we decided that if this was ever going to work that we couldnt just end the day there so we leashed the dogs, we both got our other dogs from the vehicles, and went for a 30min walk where the dogs were fine and in close proximity. Before we leave all the dogs are sniffing each other, tails wagging, then a growl from Three, a bigger growl from Gia and disappointment in both of us humans because we thought we'd made a little progress. We just told the girls "no", put them in a sit/stay and finished our conversation.

HELP -
So the advice I'm seeking is; A - any comments/suggestions on what we did right or wrong? B - is there any hope/advice in eventually getting these two together again? We'll take it as slow as need be, just wondering if there is hope... and C - will this level of a fight "screw up" my dog? Seeing what she's capable of has me slightly nervous to introduce her to any new dogs (ever). I know thats a little extreme, but my jaw is still dropped a bit. Plus she's 8, has HD, maybe she's just a grump now(?)

So anyhow, thanks in advance.

UPDATE -
...and for those wondering, Three had a deep puncture behind her ear, but its been taken care of and she's okay now. Gia also sent her a bone with an apology.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

Sounds like a typical day at a dog park. Sorry, it's just that this stuff happens all the time at dog parks which is why I avoid them. In this case you had two owners that were not neglectful and watching and a dog still got hurt. Your dog is old enough that she will not get screwed up in any way from this, she is just a dominant female. When she comes across other dominant females she needs to be controlled (on leash). Please make sure you do not get her around young females, as she will do some damage there.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Should anything like that happen in the future, I would NOT try to force the issue with a leashed dog walk. 

The best way to break up a dog fight is to grab the dogs and pull them out by their tails. I have had very good luck separating dogs (long enough to pull them out) by squirting water from a water bottle into the aggressors eyes (these fights have been between other people's dogs). I have also had luck stopping fights from happening by yelling from my solar plexus--really more like a roar--BACK OFF! 

And my first dog was a very dominant female and did not fight because I did not allow it. Every so often she would be challenged by another dominant female but it would always be stopped before it escalated, mainly because I became the super alpha of the world at that moment.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

You have a dominate female GSD and the lab is a dominate female also. Not a good mix at all. Three years ago your GSD was younger so she backed down from the lab, fast forward three years Gia is not a pup but a mature female.

Since this was an occasional meeting and the dogs don't live togteher is actually easier for you, you just keep your female and the lab owner keeps her dog on leash when they are together. Also as John said you need to keep your female on leash.

Once females fight there is very few chances that they will be friends, even co-existing in a home is a challenge and if the owner slips up it will some times result in the death of one or both dogs, at a minimum it results in more than a puncture mark.

I don't think it will screw you dog up, but since she wasn't injured it may make her a little quicker or more willing to exert or show er dominance again to a dog that wants to challenge her.

There is nothing wrong with dominate dogs, they are just that dominate. The take some different handling than a neutral or submissive dog.

I am glad that you both had enough sense not to try to grab collars, this will result in you getting bit.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Be glad it was a dog you knew. And lucky that it wasn't an owner with anger management issues! 

What can the OP do to keep her/other dogs safe?


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Jean if the female is nice and stable likes she sounds and just a dominate dog, then when out in public she needs to keep this dog leashed.

She is addressing the issues at home, but just needs to make sure she has control of her female.

Lakota is the most friendly dog, he doesn't mind meet and greets, but he WILL not tolerate another dog to dominate him. Twice while at the Vet's office when I was getting meds or paying my bill and he was right by my side, some one brought there dog up and life was good until the other dog started putting it's head on Lakota's bakc. Then he loudly with his HUGE vioce told the other dog to back off, it scares the gagebbers out of people and I calmly tell them that my dog doesn't tolerate bad god manners ot being dominated by another dog..


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Just a couple of comments.

Gia did not send the bone with an apology - her human companion may have.

I thought it's supposed to be the legs that you grab, not the tail to seperate the dogs?


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Middle, I had always read that you grab the back legs.

I went to Leerburg because I have heard that he has info posted on breaking up dog fights, I like the leash method that he talks about, less chance of you doing damage to your dog and once you get the leashe lopped, less chance of lossing the dog. I could see where if a dog is really struggling, trying to hold the back legs could be a real physical challenge.

http://www.leerburg.com/dogfight.htm


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

We had a dog at our clinic paralyzed in the rear. The owner had pulled him by the tail to separate a fight, and dislocated the vertebrae.


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## chruby (Sep 21, 2005)

You may have been doomed from the start because they are both dominant females. However, I would have started things off with a leashed walk. I would never introduce dogs to each other offleash, even if 3 years ago they were fine. Personally, I would not put them together again unless it is a walk while they are leashed. I am not a fan of dog parks either. Good luck.


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## ldpeterson (Feb 13, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Wisc.Tiger
> 
> Once females fight there is very few chances that they will be friends, even co-existing in a home is a challenge and if the owner slips up it will some times result in the death of one or both dogs, at a minimum it results in more than a puncture mark.


Not to hijack the thread but I was very interested in this comment you made which I have heard and read from several sources.

When we first adopted Maiya she attacked Annabelle so many times and sent her to the vet for stitches each and everytime we thought we were not going to be able to keep her. Serious fights, like Annabelle almost losing an eye, and having the entire back of her ear completely skinned, multiple puncture wounds in the face and legs. Maiya never had a scratch. I know for a fact they would have killed each other if not for our intervention.

Anyways, it's been 4 months since their last blow out and they have come to a point now where they are ALWAYS together and do not like to be sperated. OF COURSE I still seperate them when I am not there to watch them. But now they sleep together, they play together, and are always checking to see where the other one is if she is missing. 

Maiya throws out her dominate signs to Annabelle still and Annabelle will go into a submissive gesture instead of growling back like she use too. 

Is it likely that they have come to an understanding?

Of course that is wonderful, but I would still never ever ever trust them alone together.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

First if you have two dominate females you have to be much more dominate than both of them in order for there to be peace. I would never never trust two females that have gotten into battle if I could not be there to supervise.

Lisa what has worked in your home is that Annabelle is submitting and Maiya is backing off, but I will bet if you weren't there Maiya wouldn't say ok you are submitting, Annabelle would be dead. It takes a lot to balance females in the house. But this is with warning, all it will take is Maiya to be having a bad day and Annabelle to not submit fast enough and the fight will be on.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

You just can't tell with bitches. Ringer and Honey's sister was killed in a bitch fight with her life long companion shortly before their 12th birthday. According to their owner, the girls had never had a problem until that night.


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## Guest (Apr 24, 2008)

The best method I've found for breaking up a fight without either getting bitten or possibly injuring the dog by pulling limbs is to throw a large blanket like you might have at a picnic or the beach over both dogs. When they can't see they let go. Then quickly grab dogs away from each other.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: middleofnowhereJust a couple of comments.
> 
> Gia did not send the bone with an apology - her human companion may have.
> 
> I thought it's supposed to be the legs that you grab, not the tail to seperate the dogs?


middle you are absolutely right. I purchased the bone, I wrote the note, and I forged Gia's paw print. I will call my friends and let them know the truth. Gia had no part in the matter!









and now to be serious. first, thanks for everyones replies and input, i just wanted to add a little bit of info and clarification. a couple people mentioned pulling the dogs apart by their back legs. i'm not sure if this would have been an issue, but i'll tell you that the reason neither of us tried that is because both of the girls have HD. so the fact that i was unsure of the damage i could cause them, in the moment i just opted not to do it. also - the hold that Gia had on Three, pulling would have been just that, pulling, she did not let go until her mouth was pried apart. not the smartest move, but we had gotten both of them to the ground at this point and it was the only option we could come to.

to jean, i feel pretty safe with my dogs together at home. like i said, this is the first fight of this nature and with my other dog being a 1yr old male, the chances are slimmer of it happening here. (i wont rule it out, but he's totally submissive to her) could it also be that she knows i'm in charge when we're at home? and that i need to work on asserting myself while out? both of her good friends are female (a 6yr dobie & a 11yr lab) and when they're over a simple but stern "knock if off girls" works as far as controlling any emotions from getting out of control.

generally i would not opt to let two off leash dogs together w/o knowing how they'd deal with the other, but Three has some leash aggression, so to put things in HER favor she "had" to be off. I didnt think it'd go over to well with Gia on leash and another dog approaching her. So bad judgement call, we understand that now.

i have a guestion to bowwowmeaw - when you say "force" the issue on leash, are you referring to us allowing the dogs to walk together afterwards - or do you mean in the future trying to have them meet on leash.

i dont think its so much knowing that she's a dominate dog that has me uneasy - its actually seeing what your dog can and will do. had her teeth not been worn down a bit - or had we not been there, i could easily see her ripping this dogs neck open.

have any of you dealt with your dogs causing severe damage, and been able to get her back to a controllable point?


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: GSDadThe best method I've found for breaking up a fight without either getting bitten or possibly injuring the dog by pulling limbs is to throw a large blanket like you might have at a picnic or the beach over both dogs. When they can't see they let go. Then quickly grab dogs away from each other.


it was also suggested to us by an onlooker to cover the dogs nose with something to block their breathing. although, i cant see that working (position and opportunity wise) in most fights.


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## Hatterasser (Oct 25, 2007)

During the first attack Seamus made on Thor, I had grabbed both of them by the scruff of their necks, and yanked with all my might. Everyone here told me that was not the wisest move as I could have been bitten by either one of the two sparring boys. But who thinks of that when you're alone with two dogs trying to kill each other? *smiles*

So when Seamus and Thor got into it again the last time, I had tried to grab the leash attached to Seamus's collar and pull them apart that way. Unfortunately, during the fight, the collar had snapped off so all I had was the leash attached to an empty collar...and the two were still locked together.

As I said at the time, I grabbed a large sheet (the only thing close at hand at the time...thank heavens I do laundry now and then *grins*) and threw it over Thor's head... his eyes, his nose, his ears ...and pulled as hard as I could, effectively blinding him and blocking off his breathing through his nose. He did let go and I was able to separate them. 

So I have to agree with GSDad...it does work! Something to remember when you're one little person trying to pull apart two huge shepherds in a do or die grip on one another.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Hatterasser
> So I have to agree with GSDad...it does work! Something to remember when you're one little person trying to pull apart two huge shepherds in a do or die grip on one another.


tell me about it. i told another friend of mine about this incident and she told me that her GREAT DANE and ENGLISH MASTIFF have gotten into 'a couple of' fights. i'll mention now that she's all of 5'1 and i'd guess 120 at most. i will let her know of this technique.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:it was also suggested to us by an onlooker to cover the dogs nose with something to block their breathing. although, i cant see that working (position and opportunity wise) in most fights.


They must be made of armor to be willing to go to the BUSINESS END of the dog to break up the fight! Sorry, but if it were me, I'd go for the parts farthest away from the teeth- the rear legs. Always stay away from the mouth/head. The onlooker must never have never had to deal with dog fights and I shudder to think what will happen when s/he does. S/He'll be in the ER faster than you can say "idiot."


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Check out the Leerburg link. I knwo some of it sounds pretty rash, but you have a severe problem at hand. A leash is looped around the loin on the dog so you are not really pulling on the legs.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Wisc.TigerCheck out the Leerburg link. I knwo some of it sounds pretty rash, but you have a severe problem at hand. A leash is looped around the loin on the dog so you are not really pulling on the legs.


i just read the article with both of his methods - neither could i see being safely performed on two HD dogs


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## sleachy (Aug 10, 2001)

Your dog ate a lab?? OMG, has anyone told her how many calories are in those suckers?! Too fatty!


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: sleachyYour dog ate a lab?? OMG, has anyone told her how many calories are in those suckers?! Too fatty!


this Lab was pretty lean. i figured it would hold Gia over until I worked out which diet is going to give her the best protein/fat ratio.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

If my GSD did that I would be very disappointed, and as someone said, thank God your dog did not attack a stranger. 

I am not a big fan of dog parks, but do take my rescues to a fenced in park.

So many have provided advice on how to break up a dog fight, but I wonder if there are training methods that would help your dog never attack another pet again. 

Someone touched on the strong leadership you need to exhibit, but no one provided specific info.

A last question, not to you, but to others that replied. Are females more aggressive then males.


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## Guest (Apr 25, 2008)

Can you train your dog to _never_ attack another dog? I doubt it. Can you train your dog to be far less likely to attack another dog? Yes, most certainly. Dogs will be dogs though. They are still pack animals and the wolf in them is still there although much reduced in some and less so in others. 

Females more aggressive? In my experience yes, they are. An aggressive male just wants to prove he's stronger and once that's clear that's usually enough. An aggressive female wants their opponent DEAD.

I'm sure it's entirely sexist to say so, so please don't mistake me. My sister raised me more than my parents. Other than my wife she's my closest confidant. My wife is more to me than I can put into words. So I honor women most assuredly and see them as, if anything, probably better than men overall. I wanted to make that point clear before I pointed out that the practice of calling unpleasant women "bitches" comes from what female dogs are like in aggression. By no means do I use or endorse that term used that way.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Timber1If my GSD did that I would be very disappointed, and as someone said, thank God your dog did not attack a stranger.
> 
> I am not a big fan of dog parks, but do take my rescues to a fenced in park.
> 
> So many have provided advice on how to break up a dog fight, but I wonder if there are training methods that would help your dog never attack another pet again.


(i'll preface this by saying up front that i am making a conscious effort not to jump the gun and get offended by this response.) 

just for clarification purposes my dog has never given me any reason to fear she'd attack a person. people aggression is VERY different from dog aggression, and even now - i dont classify her as "dog aggressive" (im not defending or excusing her, i mentioned her faults up front in my OP) i understand that its alot to read and people rarely read a thread in its entirety but *my dog DID NOT ATTACK ANOTHER DOG... she was involved in a DOG FIGHT* in which she got a better grip on the other dog (as much as i hate to say "won" a fight). also my disappointment was NOT that she got in a fight, dogs are dogs and fight happen - my disappointment was based on the fact that we thought we'd made progress after they walked together calmly for 30 minutes.

and to answer your question i think 50% will say males are more aggressive and 50% will say females. there is no simple answer. there are different types of aggression and personally i'd say that certain sexes may be prone to certain types.

last but not least - we werent at a dog park.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: GSDad
> 
> Females more aggressive? In my experience yes, they are. An aggressive male just wants to prove he's stronger and once that's clear that's usually enough. An aggressive female wants their opponent DEAD.


ha, as with most species LOL.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Wow, your response seems so defensive. I will correct myself, you did say a park, not a dog park. 

Futhermore, all I did was ask if any that reads your ppost,has any suggestions.

You also said the following. "Three was screaming and it seemed like the more she screamed, the harder Gia would bite".

And as I said, if this was my GSD, I would be disappointed. Why, because my GSD's play with other dogs daily, and they know when to let go.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

^i've responded off the board so i will just leave things be. in general tho i think "attack" is a harsh word and will definitely defend my dog unless its a situation that she did indeed attack another dog.

if this same situation happened with a two dogs that i owned. my reaction would have been completely different.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I have had up to 3 bitches living together peaceably for nearly 10 years - it is a matter of dominance, control and the temperaments of the individuals. I have one very strong, dominant bitch who I do not trust with other females, but she is fine with almost any male. A male who pushes her will learn quickly she is dominant adn does not take anything from anyone.

I have had a couple of small skirmishs, and 2 very serious fights. If they are strong and serious, and you are alone, not much will get them apart. Interestingly, every time I have had a fight/skirmish, one or both of the females was in season or bred. Once or twice, the two advasaries were sharing space (accidently - loose in driveway for a few seconds!) and they just avoided each other. But put one in heat or near to it and you will have a fight with no one giving on your hands.

Hitting, yelling, water etc has had little effect on the pair. Wrapping a blanket around their heads - CAREFULLY!!!! - and continuing to pick up back ends will work when they are exhausted. Suffocating them with the blanket was the best method I had found 

I believe they remember adn hold grudges! The first fight was when the two came face to face in a narrow passageway. The second, a year later, again just before they were in heat, was instigated by the older female - who got the worst of both fights. She jumped out a window in the truck to attack the younger girl who whooped her the year before. Needless to say, now there is always at least one door between them!

Lee


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Lee, could you define 'skirmishing' & 'serious'?

Also, what are your experiences with males, neutered &/or intact? Spayed females? 

My 9yo spayed GSD & 2.5yo spayed AmBulldog got into a fight that almost certainly arose over food almost 2wks ago.

Kibble was scattered over 2 rooms. (It takes them longer to eat. Both would love to win the fat lady contest! At healthy, lean weights they're contantly hungry, so I like to strreeetch the food some). Kibble still readily available in both rooms but somehow someone took offense over a particular piece or space & BOOM!

I grabbed the AB by the back legs to part them. She was on top of Sam, my GSD, but I doubt that would have lasted. Sam is 103lbs, Spanky probably 50-70. Spanky pulled forward snapping a bit after I pulled her off, but quickly quit. Spanky was bleeding from numerous small punctures to her head, jaw, neck. Sam had no injuries. Medical attention wasn't needed. The bleeding continued for some minutes but wasn't profuse. (Bloody pawprints & droplets, not puddles or pools)

I suspect it was a rare occurrence of canine miscommunication. Regardless of how they're fed, they've always respected each other's space/rights. (They're never free fed-ie food always available) Spanky poked her head into Sam's food once. Sam growled, Spanky immediately backed off.

Following the fight they walked very carefully around each other with a few somewhat suspicious looks. No bumping, glaring, rumbling, pushing. To err on the safe side I crated Spanky for the day while I was at work. I've also fed her separately from Sam (& Djibouti, 4+mo GSD male pup that joined us soon after).

Once again they're friendly. Routinely all 3 will share the crate while I'm putting the muttchkins out. (One of whom is NOT safe with Spanky. That grudge thing you mentioned!). Sam & Djibouti don't have to be crated, but choose to join Spanky who has no objections. 

I *think* the fight was more than casual, but not deeply serious. There don't seem to be any lingering resentments, but I don't want dogs hurt through my ignorance. I've had blessedly little dog to dog aggression. The downside to that is lack of hands on experience with it.

Although this isn't specific to the OP, I think/hope it's in keeping with the tenor of the thread. My apologies if I've strayed too far.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

ruby, just out of curiosity - have either of your dogs been an a fight with a dog outside of your pack? or i guess - how are they with other dogs in general? just wondering if spanky has a dominate personality but is the lesser between her and sam.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Nope. However, Spanky has shown enough issues with other animals since she came last yr that she is carefully supervised with outside dogs & limited in her interactions with them. She's only around dogs owned by friends & family.

She was orphaned when her owner unexpectedly died late last April. I never knew her before then. It's likely he was murdered by an acquaintance. Spanky was alone with the body in a very warm & stifling house for a week before her deceased owner was found. Due to the extensive decomposition of the remains, foul play wasn't immediately suspected. I shudder to think of how long she was without food & water in that house. She's an American Bulldog, much more natural in appearance than English Bulldogs, but heavily muscled, short nosed & intolerant of heat.

My daughter inherited everything the victim had, which was a pile of unpaid bills, & Spanky...ABs are among the restricted breeds where my daughter rents which is one strike against Spanky. Another is that in her early days with us she aggressed at my daughter who took it personally & has never really forgiven her. 

There was a dispute about Spanky moving into the front seat. I'd told my girl to NOT let that happen, to securely confine Spanky in the rear seat before driving off. Sighhhh. My daughter didn't bother. When she resisted Spanky climbing over the seat, Spanky took her arm in her mouth & bore down enough to cause bruising, although she didn't break the skin. There's a streak of bully(no pun intended) in Spanky. She'll test/push the limits if permitted to do so. Unfortunately, prior to coming here, Spanky spent several months with an old friend of my daughter's. Her friend adored Spanky, but imposed no limits. None. Anything Spanky wanted or did was allowed, no questions asked. 

My household has been a huge adjustment for her. She was an only dog, spoiled, indulged, excellent with people, especially children, but probably not around other animals much, if at all. Now there's 5 dogs, 3 cats & a parrot. She's gone from QueenBee to being outranked by a cat! 

Sam spent her entire life among other dogs, neutered & intact, male & female, all ages, sizes & different breeds. She's a no nonsense, fairly dominant girl, but very mellow with it. Sam isn't obnoxious about it, but she's definitely lead dog. Spanky seems fine with this, which is somewhat surprising, but Sam is one of those dogs that simply has a lot of presence & carries herself well. She's very gracious with other dogs & they generally yield to her without any fuss.

It will be interesting to see where it goes with Djibouti, the pup...He's a young guy who thinks he oughta be running the world right now. He's a sweetie, but inclined to be pushy & demanding. Spanky likes him, but somewhat less than when he 1st came. LOL, I think she pegged him for easy pickings.


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