# How do I read these scores?



## johnpsz (Jan 1, 2019)

As some may know, I am new here and researching the best new pup to join our family. 

In my research of breeders I see things like:

ZW 73 Hips 1a Elbows normal
or HD a1 normal ED a1 normal

So my question, is there a standard for these scores and where might I find those. When I google German Shepherd hip scores I get a lot of info, but most are different scores and ratings then what I am seeing here. These are not OFA or BVA scores, what are they? Are they something the breeder is making up to get unsuspecting buyers to think they are getting something better than another breeder?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

a1 hips are normal hips as rated by the SV (German shepherd dog club) in Germany. a1 elbows are normal elbows as rated by the SV in Germany. They also have a2 -Fast normal or almost normal and a3 which would be noch zugalasen or still permissable. a4 and a5 are considered failing. Hips and elbows can be rated by the SV after 1 year of age. 



The ZW number is the mathematical results of a bunch of factors such as the hip rating of the dog, its siblings, its parents and, if the dog has produced puppies, how its pups have rated. When bred, the average of ZW numbers must be no greater than 100. For example a dog with a terrible ZW number of 120 could still be bred to a dog with, say, a ZW of 75. Once a dog starts producing puppies its ZW number can be greatly affected so even a dog that starts out at 70 could have its ZW go up if it produces a lot of a2, a3, a4 and a5. The ZW number is not as accurate for dogs born and being bred in the USA since not all pups are submitted (many US dogs that are x-rayed use OFA) and I have found that how many offspring are x-rayed makes a huge difference. I look for a dog that has a LOT of its offspring x-rayed which gives a better predictor of how they will produce Vs. a dog with a great ZW, but few offspring have been submitted. Just like in the US, the Germans also do prelims and if hips are bad they don't take them in for their official 1 year x-rays.


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## Miika's Mom (Sep 23, 2013)

Hope this helps too…

http://www.angesgardiens.ca/ANG/Glossary.htm


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## johnpsz (Jan 1, 2019)

lhczth said:


> a1 hips are normal hips as rated by the SV (German shepherd dog club) in Germany. a1 elbows are normal elbows as rated by the SV in Germany. They also have a2 -Fast normal or almost normal and a3 which would be noch zugalasen or still permissable. a4 and a5 are considered failing. Hips and elbows can be rated by the SV after 1 year of age.
> 
> 
> 
> The ZW number is the mathematical results of a bunch of factors such as the hip rating of the dog, its siblings, its parents and, if the dog has produced puppies, how its pups have rated. When bred, the average of ZW numbers must be no greater than 100. For example a dog with a terrible ZW number of 120 could still be bred to a dog with, say, a ZW of 75. Once a dog starts producing puppies its ZW number can be greatly affected so even a dog that starts out at 70 could have its ZW go up if it produces a lot of a2, a3, a4 and a5. The ZW number is not as accurate for dogs born and being bred in the USA since not all pups are submitted (many US dogs that are x-rayed use OFA) and I have found that how many offspring are x-rayed makes a huge difference. I look for a dog that has a LOT of its offspring x-rayed which gives a better predictor of how they will produce Vs. a dog with a great ZW, but few offspring have been submitted. Just like in the US, the Germans also do prelims and if hips are bad they don't take them in for their official 1 year x-rays.


Wow,

Thanks for that info. One more question, if the ZW isn't as "usable" for US breeders, should I just assume that if the Hips, Elows, and temperament are OK then I should be good to go? I am not going to be doing shows or breeding, I just want to be sure I am getting a pup that will not have medical issues, if I can help it.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

johnpsz said:


> Wow,
> 
> Thanks for that info. One more question, if the ZW isn't as "usable" for US breeders, should I just assume that if the Hips, Elows, and temperament are OK then I should be good to go? I am not going to be doing shows or breeding, I just want to be sure I am getting a pup that will not have medical issues, if I can help it.


ZW numbers are assigned at birth to animals born in Germany. They can change when actual x-rays are submitted and rated. I do my dogs as prelims at 12-15 months through OFA and then send the same x-rays to Germany to be rated. Their ZW numbers are very skewed because they are often from parents with OFAs not SV hip ratings so there is nothing on which to calculate a ZW.

Hips are not a mathematical certainty. Excellents can come out of Fast normals. Excellents can produce dysplasia. The key is KNOWLEDGE of lines and what anecdotal information is out there - Dog A, B and C for example have a great ZW - but produced a ton of pups with HD - which were never submitted for evaluation....Dog G has fine hips - but his sire produced tons of poor hips, and those show up in a high percentage of his line even to 3 generations, especially when line breeding on Dog G. ZW is a tool, and useful...but not written in stone as a guide.

Lee


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

johnpsz said:


> Wow,
> 
> Thanks for that info. One more question, if the ZW isn't as "usable" for US breeders, should I just assume that if the Hips, Elows, and temperament are OK then I should be good to go? I am not going to be doing shows or breeding, I just want to be sure I am getting a pup that will not have medical issues, if I can help it.



I like to look at breadth and depth of a pedigree. An excellent dog with siblings that have all failed would be a greater risk than a fair dog with an entire litter as fair. It wasn't unusual for some of the old herding kennels to have generations of a3 hips. So look at the parents and any siblings of the dogs that are being bred. Also look for any other health testing and, of course, temperament testing beyond some basic things like CGC (Canine Good citizen). Temperament is the most important. A mildly dysplastic dog can live a long functional life as long as the temperament is sound. A dog with excellent hips is useless if the dog is a nerve bag. Ideally we want everything, soundness/health and temperament.


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