# Looking for a thread



## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

I heard that there was video here of Frans' dog at a breed survey and I can't find it. A little help please?


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Zahnburg said:


> I heard that there was video here of Frans' dog at a breed survey and I can't find it. A little help please?


Yeah, its gone. I did the helper work. Sorry :-/ can't share crap around here


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Zahnburg said:


> I heard that there was video here of Frans' dog at a breed survey and I can't find it. A little help please?


It got pulled. Offended someone. I was learning from it. Oh well.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> It got pulled. Offended someone. I was learning from it. Oh well.


What were you learning, may I ask? Hopefully not sound helper work lol


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## Beau (Feb 12, 2012)

I didn't get to see it as well. 

Not fair!


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

What do you mean it got "pulled"?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

The thread was removed because it had gotten nasty and was attacking a person who is not a member of this board. The video was also removed by Hunter for pretty much the same reasons. 

ADMIN Lisa


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

hunterisgreat said:


> What were you learning, may I ask? Hopefully not sound helper work lol


Well for me the back and forth on your thread and others help me to understand more about determining what kind of dogs are acceptable for breeding and which are not.

Right now my uneducated opinion is that the protection genres are sport.
Fun for the participants but don't really have a whole lot to do with breeding.

I think there should be a nerve test that is not sport.

I understand that won't happen though. Too many titled dogs would flunk.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Jack's Dad;2605270
I think there should be a nerve test that is not sport.:)
[/QUOTE said:


> The Swedes are well ahead of you: Mental Description of dog - a canine character test - as performed by ( Svenska Brukshundsklubben ) - the Swedish Working Dogs' Oganisation


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Zahnburg said:


> The Swedes are well ahead of you: Mental Description of dog - a canine character test - as performed by ( Svenska Brukshundsklubben ) - the Swedish Working Dogs' Oganisation


Now that is very interesting.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

Wow it must have gotten really nasty to get "pulled". I usually just see threads getting locked when things go south, but never before have I seen a thread get removed.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

ayoitzrimz said:


> Wow it must have gotten really nasty to get "pulled". I usually just see threads getting locked when things go south, but never before have I seen a thread get removed.


It happens from time to time. Sometimes there's just too much ugliness for a mod to have to go through and do all the edits necessary to bring it back on track. 

If people would play nice with others, we wouldn't have to do that.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

ayoitzrimz said:


> Wow it must have gotten really nasty to get "pulled". I usually just see threads getting locked when things go south, but never before have I seen a thread get removed.


Believe it or not, it wasn't. but since the person discussed is not part of the forum to defend himself I understand the reasons to close, but not the reasons to delete it, there was useful information there, some agree or not.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

The thread was also hopelessly off topic.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Pretty soon there will be mostly pet posts in most areas.....a reflection of the times.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

How very sad, and that's coming from a pet owner too. I can only imagine what other people think, those people who really bring out what this breed brings to the table.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

A pet owner isn't able to do that?


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

cliffson1 said:


> Pretty soon there will be mostly pet posts in most areas.....a reflection of the times.


Yeah  This is pretty much the only forum that still talks about something beyond Fluffy's funny pictures and aggression problems. One with a SchH section that is active almost daily.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Sorry, that's not exactly how I meant that. But in a way, yes. Depending on what you mean by pet owner. Some do things with their pets: sports, work (I do therapy) and what have you. But some try to raise couch potatoes. Not trying to insult anyone or infer they don't deserve to own the breed. If I've offended anyone it was unintentional.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> Pretty soon there will be mostly pet posts in most areas.....a reflection of the times.


Or perhaps a direct result of current breeding practices.


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

Zahnburg said:


> The Swedes are well ahead of you: Mental Description of dog - a canine character test - as performed by ( Svenska Brukshundsklubben ) - the Swedish Working Dogs' Oganisation


 

Both my IPO competition dogs, Cayos and Diesel have the Swedish MH title on them... I did it with both of them...
Probably the only IPO dogs in the USA with the MH title in their AWDF scorebook 


Frank


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Frank,
That is awesome. Where/how did you get it? I've long thought that some sort of true temperament testing, beyond sport, would benefit the breed greatly. Unfortunately Raiser's RSV2000 and it's model to do just that for GSDs hasn't taken off here. The TT and TC are similar in many ways to the MH but don't touch enough on working traits and some other aspects of nerve. Would be very interested in finding out how to do the MH in the US.


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

Chris Wild said:


> Frank,
> That is awesome. Where/how did you get it? I've long thought that some sort of true temperament testing, beyond sport, would benefit the breed greatly. Unfortunately Raiser's RSV2000 and it's model to do just that for GSDs hasn't taken off here. The TT and TC are similar in many ways to the MH but don't touch enough on working traits and some other aspects of nerve. Would be very interested in finding out how to do the MH in the US.


 I am an instructor at a 1 week IPO camp in Solleftea Sweden every July, I have done it for the last 8 years...So I did the MH on Cayos there 5 or 6 years ago, and Diesel 3 years ago.....

There is one part where a person comes out from behind a hiding place in a cloak over their head and walk and act all suspicious, Dogs start barking like **** at them....Then the person takes off the hood and pulls out a towel and starts swinging it around.....You should have seen the look on HER face when both my dogs went after the towel like a long bite.....hahaha....which is what they are suppose to do, go play with the person when the threat ends...But I don't think she is used to a full on long attack on the towel....but she made a great catch on both ...hahaha

It is a very cool test, basically they stress and freak the dog out, and then document how and how long it takes to recover, and then do it all over again... The entire test lasts about 30-40 minutes.....Every dog that breeds MUST take this test (all breeds) and then there is a form that is filled out with mulitiple copies, one to handler, one is sent to the breeder and one to the kennel club where the results are put on the website for all to see if they want to....actually kind of funny to watch the first time but overall a really good tool for having only sound dogs breeding.....


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Well drat... tell ya what, next trip over see if you can get certified to administer it over here, ok? 

Question out of curiosity... since in Sweden all breeding dogs of any breed have to take it, are there different expectations based on breed and what is acceptable for the breed for certain elements in the test? Like on the TT/TC with the threatening stranger, a GSD who dips behind the handler and hides is supposed to fail, whereas the softer pet/lap dog breeds doing the same would pass. Likewise one of those showing aggression could fail, whereas the GSD is expected to.


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

Chris Wild said:


> Well drat... tell ya what, next trip over see if you can get certified to administer it over here, ok?
> 
> Question out of curiosity... since in Sweden all breeding dogs of any breed have to take it, are there different expectations based on breed and what is acceptable for the breed for certain elements in the test? Like on the TT/TC with the threatening stranger, a GSD who dips behind the handler and hides is supposed to fail, whereas the softer pet/lap dog breeds doing the same would pass. Likewise one of those showing aggression could fail, whereas the GSD is expected to.


 I am not positive about this....However there are not really "protective" tests....There is no threatening at all, just suspision, loud and fast things popping up.....

There is interaction with people, play with stranger (test some drives) then the test I described before with the cloak, then they do a 4 mins of nothing...Just stand there and see if the dog can't just settle and do nothing or if they are nuerotic and stress when nothing is going on.... Then there is a "prey" item, with a string through a bunch of pulleys, someone pulls it you let the dog go to see if they chase it, bite it, tug weith it, just look at it or what ever..... Then you head into the woods.... Next up you are walking through the woods on a path and in front of you there is a pair of coveralls, with the legs attached to ground, and a pole through the arms and collapsed on the ground, when you are about 3 feet from it, BAM they pop it up (I nearly jumped out of my skin), the dog should sppok, and then they see how long it takes for him to recover and go investigate it....Then you walk past it 2 or 3 times and then move on, next was a big rippled metal roof 2 feet off teh trail behind bushes, when you are walking past they pull pots, pipes, and all kinds of loud raket along them, dogs jumps out of skin and they watch as he recovers and goes to investigate... Then you go into the woods more and there are gun shots with you just standing there, then you pull out a towel and 2 more gun shots while you are playing with him.... Then you walk to a fork in the trail and stop, then slowly one on each path 40 feet down the path a "ghost" steps out onto the path....slowly one at a time a one walks toward you... The dog must control the ghosts, barking, staring, whatever....after a few minutes of approaching, the handler goes and takes off the hoods and the ghost stick their hands out of the costume and let the dog smell them.... It is literly 30-40 of stress one after the next and watch the recover and get over it.....


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Fascinating...

Thanks, Frank. I've seen some MH videos on youtube, but your description helps flesh it out and give me a better idea of what they're looking for. Also love that they look at how the dog acts during down time in between, and the cumulative stress aspect of a half hour or more of constantly having buttons pushed. Very neat.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Yes, thank you Frank for the description. Very very interesting!!

BTW, good luck with Diesel at the Nationals.


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## sabledog (Mar 13, 2012)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> It happens from time to time. Sometimes there's just too much ugliness for a mod to have to go through and do all the edits necessary to bring it back on track.
> 
> If people would play nice with others, we wouldn't have to do that.


If people wouldn't cheat and maintain the sport's integrity people wouldn't have to get "nasty" about it. Sorry. Cheating is cheating. Not really any "nice" way to say it.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

The Swedish Mental test was discussed a while back with videos in this thread:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...n-breeder-spit-some-thoughts.html#post2561282

I really liked this dog - just happy and confident and outgoing, all reactions as they should be, not to mention the wonderful relationship this young dog seems to have with his owner - it just radiates off both of them:






And a video of a dog that did not do as well as a counterpoint: 





from this post:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...breeder-spit-some-thoughts-2.html#post2566133

Really enjoyed watching these tests.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

We were talking about this at training Saturday....I'd love to have this incorporated into training/it does show the dogs true self.


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> We were talking about this at training Saturday....I'd love to have this incorporated into training/it does show the dogs true self.


 
Well, people are not suppose to "incorporate this into training".... The dogs are suppose to be young and the handlers are not suppose to train for this....some do (cheat) but almost all of the ones that I have personally seen in Sweden do NOT train for it....It is suppose to be a test of the raw dog, not of training..... That way it is a true "elavuation" of the dogs nerves...

Frank


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I meant to type testing/to show the dogs true self...I was typing in 1/2 sleep mode! Thats what I get when I stay up past my bedtime. Though it was worth it to watch the Tigers win!


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## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> I meant to type testing/to show the dogs true self...


I agree completely....unfortunately the AKC will NEVER impliment ANY kind of breeding regulations that could restrict breeding in this country....They will never do anything that could cut their income....For AKC it is ALL about the money, NOT about the dogs.. 

Frank


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Wow, thanks for posting the video of the MH. We had some clients last year who moved here from Sweden for a temporary position. The wife was very into the dogs and training. She joined our park (we have a private dog park on our property) for the 6 months they lived here. She had a Nova Scotia DTR and a Border Collie. She had done this test with the Retriever, but hadn't done the BC as it was still too young when they left. Anyway both dogs had exemplary temperament and training. She told me all about the dog training available near her and this test that everyone in her club is required to take. They've gone back to Sweden now, so I'm sure she's going to do the second dog.
Would love something like that around here for sure.


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## björn (Mar 5, 2011)

The MH is required for breeding and if you want to compete in working trials, however this is only for dogs that belongs to the workingdog breeds according to the swedish workingdog club, so for example a greyhound don´t need it even if it´s allowed to do for "petdogs" also if wanted. Each breedclub has an "ideal" profile how the breed should score, but I guess that´s more or less the same considering it´s mainly for working breeds, much drive, boldness and not so much fearreactions I suppose.

After the MH you can also do the korung like this female is doing here,


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