# what do you think about Leerburg training?



## caligirl07

Hi guys, 

I came across this website http://www.leerburg.com/ and wanted to ask, if any of you tried some training recommended by them. 
There are some questions from people and answers from the owner. I think, it was interesting to read.







What do you think about it?


----------



## GunnerJones

I can speak to his puppy videos and basic obedience vids, I found them quite helpful especially when you can contact him thru emails with questions and research his forum. He and his associate have years of practical experience in breeding care and training. He (and mods) runs a tight ship on his forum and his website is a boon of dog training/care information


----------



## AbbyK9

I originally stumbled onto the Leerburg website when I was doing research on the prong collar after having a foster dog who was really hard to handle and having had the prong collar recommended to me as a training tool. I wanted to know more about how it's used and what people had to say before deciding to get one, and the Leerburg site is one of the first who came up.

I think there is a lot of really good information on the site, based on his experience working and owning dogs. There is some information that I don't agree with, such as not letting other people pet your dog, but a lot that I've found very useful over the years. I frequently point people to the article on the prong collar and the articles on ground work and dog parks.


----------



## Elaine

I don't think much of Ed hiimself and find some of his opinions very extreme, but I like his dog training. It's not that much different from I have done in the past and it complements it. His training has a lot of marker training in it and when done correctly, it works very well while maintaining the dog's attitude. I highly recommend his videos.


----------



## big_dog7777

I have had a lot of contact with Leerburg, as I have one of Ed's dogs who I cannot be happier with as well as order equipment and other things form them. Ed has been nothing but helpful to me, providing me with all the support I could want before and after I purchased my puppy. He has endorsed and referred people to my Schutzhund club, and the his facility is quite impressive. I don't have anything but good things to say about the experiences I have had with Leerburg as a whole. As far as the training DVD's and articles, they are very good tools. I agree with much that's on his site, and I choose to not use some of what's on his site. It's a great resource, but just as with ANY trainer or methodology - there is no "recipe" for dog training. Every dog is different.


----------



## CWhite

There is a lot of good information on the web site. 

I have two videos and they were very helpful. I am a novice handler.


----------



## MaggieRoseLee

There's alot of good info on his site and I like that a bunch of his teaching articles are free and available to read on his site.

He also has a forum similiar to this one so you can post questions. Just another resource to go to for learning, and then use your common sense when it comes to your situation and your dog.


----------



## ThreeDogs

I love his site. The articles are very extensive and informative. 

His video's are great, but he does have one of those monotone voices that can put you to sleep.


----------



## kaslkaos

I like his site; especially his advice for cat owners with dogs. Whenever someone is having trouble with their dog chasing their cat I'll advise this site.
I like to train and maintain things on a purely positive basis (marker/clicker training), but for what I call basic safety (down, come, leave-it) I'll use corrections to proof. His advice on how to gage the level of correction is a good read. Most sites won't tell you this, as they either have philosophical objections to use of any corrections, or they simply assume people are too ignorant and will abuse the dog based on the advice. Leerburg is harsh, no-nonsense and honest in his advice. You need to use your own judgement in how and when to use. Read his stuff, read the clicker training sites, and you'll be well on your way to making informed decisions in dog training.


----------



## big_dog7777

I like your viewpoint Ingrid and agree with everything you have said.


----------



## caligirl07

That's right, I found the website also because I was looking for prong collars and how to use them.


----------



## novarobin

A friend of mine is a trainer for the Police K9 unit. Prior to that he bred Rotties and showed them. During a discussion we were having the other day with a new puppy owner (non-GSD or PSD), the Leerburg videos and the website came up. He highly recommended them.


----------



## Catu

I like his articles and agree with most of what he says, not everything, but enough. I haven't had the opportunity to see any of his videos. What I confess I don't like is the constant self reference. I know he owns a business and that is his ultimate goal but it can become tiring after a while and makes me take his words with a bit of precaution. Does he want to offer information and advice or does he want to hook me to sell me a video?

Anyway I plan to sign up on his forum one of this days. I love this forum, but sometimes is good to have advice of people who is more workings dog oriented than pets.


----------



## LouCastle

I'm not a fan of either Mr. Frawley or his training. 

****** removed by Admin****

He was a reserve (meaning part time) police officer. He purchased a narcotics dog that had been pretrained and used that dog to assist his local PD with narcotics searches. He was not a full time paid police officer. 

*****removed by Admin****

**Please keep negative comments in private. You may post that you do not aggree, but then ask people to contact you in private.

thank you,

Admin****


----------



## BowWowMeow

Well, I was going to stay out of this one but I'll chime in. 

I cannot comment on the videos because I have never seen one. I will say that some of the links have good advice like the one on cat/dog introductions But I think this guy himself is one of the scariest people out there, dog-wise. The advice he gives people and the discussions that go on over there chill me to the bone. I absolutely disagree with stringing a dog up (something he advocates as a last resort but which a lot of people take to heart and use with their dogs) and he often tells people to euthanize young dogs with aggression issues. 

I could go on and on but he drives me around the bend so leave it at that!


----------



## kaslkaos

I've noticed the negatives on the Leerburg site as discussed, but we are all responsible to use common sense and critical thinking when reading 'free' advice given on the web. Reading between the lines, making judgements when attitude is present, etc.. Leerburg's site is a good place to practice this. And I'm serious. I've read all sorts of things over there, somethings that are scary, some things that are very useful. 
We are responsible for our dogs, and the more information the better. Since I nearly lost my favourite cat based on a purely positive trainers advice, I learned early on never to take any advice without question regardless of their so-called expertise real or imagined. 
I also had a trainer with e-collar certificates up the wazoo (genuine big name franchise) make my dog scream and crawl up the leash. (another time I made the mistake of trusting an expert).
Read, read, read, and think, think, think. There are useful articles over at Leerburg, but do keep your critical thinking cap on, and absolutely educate yourself on purely positive/clicker training sites while you're at it.


----------



## MaggieRoseLee

> Quote:Read, read, read, and think, think, think. There are useful articles over at Leerburg, but do keep your critical thinking cap on, and absolutely educate yourself on purely positive/clicker training sites while you're at it.


Isn't that the truth!!!


----------



## AbbyK9

"Read everything. Use only what works for you and your dog."


----------



## chruby

IMHO, the Leerburg site does have some helpful articles such as how to handle a multiple dog household or acclimate dogs and cats living together as well as some decent videos and some not so decent ones. As far as obedience, I prefer the Ivan videos. 

He has bred quite a large amount of GSD litters and IMHO as far as his expertise as a breeder, he does not title his bitches, nor has he (please correct me if I am wrong) SchH titled a dog. So to me, as far as the sport is concerned he is no expert and if he does not title his breeding females how can he prove they are breed-worthy. I don't think he is active in any dog sport either. Please correct me if I am wrong..









I will say one thing about him though...he is an expert at marketing.


----------



## luvsables

I did buy one video from Leerburg on tracking and it was not worth 1 penny. ***** removed by Admin. Please, no personal attacks.******


----------



## animoosh

I think that no matter what trainer, videos, or books we read, there are going to be techniques, theories that we agree or disagree with. Leerburg has put down his knowledge and what he believes works, if you like it use it and if you don't then don't. There are many trainers out there that wouldn't put their information out there for whatever reason and so therefore don't get criticized or praised. I remember when I had my white GSD and I rented the Monks of New Skete videos, I thought they were very helpful and my dog learned to sit, sit stay, down and down stay, they helped me but would everyone agree that they are the best? Probably not, but would I recommend someeone to at least view them and try? Sure, because they helped me. So, different strokes for different folks, that's the way the world works.


----------



## Timber1

Please,

everyone needs to check into his background and then comment. He is helpful, opionated and my understanding is he now trains dogs strictly for military and police dog work.

I don't agree with everything he says, but some of the more recent comments on this board seem a bit off the cuff.


----------



## DanL

> Originally Posted By: chrubyHe has bred quite a large amount of GSD litters and IMHO as far as his expertise as a breeder, he does not title his bitches, nor has he (please correct me if I am wrong) SchH titled a dog. So to me, as far as the sport is concerned he is no expert and if he does not title his breeding females how can he prove they are breed-worthy. I don't think he is active in any dog sport either. Please correct me if I am wrong..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I will say one thing about him though...he is an expert at marketing.


If you are breeding working line dogs for police and military, and those lines are proven, why would you need to put a sport title on them? Do you not think he trains and tests to make sure his dogs are breed worthy? You don't need a title to see if your dog has the necessary drive and temperament to do things a police or military dog will do. None of the police K9 people I know give a hoot about sport titles. They want a dog who gets the job done, period. Will he bite? Will he track? Is he healthy? Is he stable? Those are what they care about.


----------



## big_dog7777

Dan,

I have a Leerburg pup from one of the last litters they had before taking their break from breeding. She is everything I hoped for and more from both a working and companion standpoint. My male has Leerburg lines on both sides of his pedigree. I have also personally seen multiple other dogs out of their litters that so far have been super SchH prospects. With that being said, the titling process is there for a reason. A test on your home field is not going to compare to a Sch3 trial at a new field with a strange helper to test nerves, a full OB routine to test a dogs desire to please, and a full SchH3 track laid by a stranger to test problem solving and intelligence. Not to mention the intimate knowledge about a dogs temperament and abilities aquired through the length of time spent training to get to the skill level needed to even attempt attaining a title. Any experienced working line breeder will tell you that even from the best breeding pair there are "duds" in the working sense in most litters. If someone was to take one of these dogs unsuitable for SchH/PSD/MWD work and breed them to another similar dog you would end up with a litter that has a dynamite pedigree beyond Dam and Sire that means nothing. The military and K9 people don't care about sport titles because they do not evaluate litters for selection, they evaluate young adults. Titling is very important when selecting puppies. The sport of SchH was developed, and is still used as a tool to determine breed worthiness. People training and breeding balanced (not just prey, but defense and fight as well) SchH dogs are developing dogs that have every tool that PSD/MWD handlers need.


----------



## DanL

How many people, aside from those who want to compete in sports at a regional or national level, title their dogs on strange fields with strange decoys? Isn't one of the negative points around Sch these days the fact that too many people will title them on their own club's field with the same decoy who's been working the dog since it was a pup? How many of our own forum members here have had their BH and Sch titles done on the field where they train? I'd guess that most have. Who, except those who are looking for top level sport dogs, is going to investigate where a dog was titled and by what judges and decoys? A sch3 is a sch3 on a pedigree, I've never seen anything about how and where the dog was titled having a bearing on that title. 

I know 2 guys who selectively breed for police/military applications. Yes, not every dog is going to be a candidate, but an experienced breeder/trainer/handler can tell which dogs have potential and which ones don't. They take the dogs and train them in foundation bite and drive work, no obedience, and then sell them to the various agencies who then do their own obedience and finishing work on the prospects. Neither of them will try to tell you that every dog in their litters have the same potential. Some will make good pets and nothing more. They are not offering their lesser talented dogs to their customers, that would do them no good. The one guy I know, his last litter which was 4 dogs, 3 are now working police dogs, at departments all over the country. The 4th wasn't good enough and was sold as a pet.


----------



## big_dog7777

I hear you, which is why many people buy from breeders who they can actually see work their dogs. There are many negative points throughout all types of training whether it be SchH or PSD.


----------



## DanL

I should note- I'm not discounting a Sch title, no matter where it's obtained. A Sch3 isn't something any dog is going to be able to do, and it's an admirable result. Maybe the tests are not as hard as they once were, but the training the dog and handler must to to even get close to that level is significant.


----------



## lemans

In 34 years, I think 7 Leerburg dogs went to Sch III according to USA
http://germanshepherddog.com/members/schH_3.htm


In my opinion, I would look elswhere. 
Yeah I get it , my dogs are so good I don't need no Sch titles to prove it. 

And don't forget , he has bred over 300 litters according to him.

Not a favorable ratio of dogs produced and dogs titled.


----------



## DanL

Simon what are you trying to say, that those 7 dogs were the only ones who got a Sch3 out of all those litters because they were the only ones that were capable of getting that title? I doubt it. It's probably more like the people who purchased those dogs are doing something else besides Sch with them. Maybe they are doing PSA or ring sports. Maybe they are real life protection dogs working on private property. Maybe they are police or military dogs. Obviously not every dog that is produced is going to have what it takes, but you can't honestly tell me that out of 300 litters only 7 were worth anything. 


Sorry, in my opinion there is more to a dog than a Sch title. If a breeder is consistently turning out proven dogs that are doing actual work, that is what counts.


----------



## DianaM

If you read some of the stories about the dogs Ed has been in contact with, you'll understand where the "string the dog up" thing comes from. It's a sad fact that powerful dogs can change hands very often, are raised by poor handlers, and are treated as breeding commodities. In a single home with a fair handler, these dogs may be just fine but due to their upbringing and being passed around like a hot potato, some of these dogs can and will injure. And I don't mean a simple bruise or a scratch from a tooth. I know of someone missing a finger because of a very aggressive but otherwise very good dog; excellent genetics, but again, passed around and probably had one or two rough handlers. No amount of only positive reinforcement could assuage these dogs, hence why there is information out there to "choke out the dog." It's cruel, it's horrid, but it's a result of treating great dogs like money-making objects. Not to mention breeding dogs that are "over the top" and not raising them right (one owner who is fair and respectable). I never, ever want to own a dog like that, one that I must bring to the edge of death for it to finally throw in the rank towel.

I like how Ed is as blunt as a basketball. He will not beat around the bush if you ask for advice. He will give you the truth as it is without trying to soften it up. Sometimes his advice is a little TOO much which is why his stuff needs to be balanced by other methods. I do like how he drills into people's heads that first, the dog must be TAUGHT a command, and only then PROOFED (corrections brought in). He doesn't seem to like clicker training, but he likes marker training.


----------



## lhczth

This topic was about the training ideas and theories on the Leerburg site. Please leave the Leerburg breeding program out of the discussion or take it private. This is to everyone and just happens to follow Diana's post.

Thank you,

Admin
*****


----------



## Cooper&me

I have read a lot of negative comments on this board. I am suprised how heavily this one was edited by the admin. Does that speak to Ed's power in the industry?


----------



## GunnerJones

> Originally Posted By: mjb03I have read a lot of negative comments on this board. I am suprised how heavily this one was edited by the admin. Does that speak to Ed's power in the industry?


Lawyers


----------



## BowWowMeow

> Originally Posted By: DianaMIf you read some of the stories about the dogs Ed has been in contact with, you'll understand where the "string the dog up" thing comes from. It's a sad fact that powerful dogs can change hands very often, are raised by poor handlers, and are treated as breeding commodities. In a single home with a fair handler, these dogs may be just fine but due to their upbringing and being passed around like a hot potato, some of these dogs can and will injure. And I don't mean a simple bruise or a scratch from a tooth. I know of someone missing a finger because of a very aggressive but otherwise very good dog; excellent genetics, but again, passed around and probably had one or two rough handlers. No amount of only positive reinforcement could assuage these dogs, hence why there is information out there to "choke out the dog." It's cruel, it's horrid, but it's a result of treating great dogs like money-making objects. Not to mention breeding dogs that are "over the top" and not raising them right (one owner who is fair and respectable). I never, ever want to own a dog like that, one that I must bring to the edge of death for it to finally throw in the rank towel.


I would have to disagree with you here. Your last statement made my stomach turn. In MANY cases such treatment does much more damage to the dog and will often cause further aggression. I think it's total, macho, old school b.s. 

I have no idea how much experience you have with dogs. I've seen some of these horribly abused and neglected and aggressive dogs and I've seen them rehabbed without being strung up or any other abusive methods used on them. And I've also seen what happens when people meet aggression with aggression. They kill whatever is left of the dog's spirit. And then what's the point of he or she living?

I could go on and on but I won't. Better to euthanize a dog than to torture it.


----------



## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: DianaMIf you read some of the stories about the dogs Ed has been in contact with, you'll understand where the "string the dog up" thing comes from. It's a sad fact that powerful dogs can change hands very often, are raised by poor handlers, and are treated as breeding commodities. In a single home with a fair handler, these dogs may be just fine but due to their upbringing and being passed around like a hot potato, some of these dogs can and will injure.


Thing is, it was just this sort of "string 'em up" thinking that turned the dog into a monster in the first place. Then they often get passed around again to more macho handlers who think it's cool to have a dangerous dog, who pick fights with their dog or try to dominate the dog rather than build a relationship of trust and respect. And the next handler stringing the dog up just perpetuates the cycle. 

Most of these dogs will turn around if placed with someone who is experienced and patient and will put time into building a bond with the dog. I've known some tough "man eater" working dogs who DID turn around. Several years we ended up providing a retirement home to a "man eating" dog who was dangerous and had bitten several times. He had lived the first 8 years of his life with 3 different owners, all of whom valued him as nothing more than a stud, and who took the "string 'em up" approach to handling him. The mental scars never went away entirely, but with time and patience and a sincere effort on our part to have a relationship with him, he became a happy, trustworthy, devoted and loving dog who was able to enjoy the last couple years of his life playing ball, cuddling on the couch and enjoying being with people for the first time. And this is not the only such case I know of.

Indeed, many of these dogs that people would give up on or PTS for being dangerous go on to be not only stable, trustworthy, devoted dogs but good working or sport dogs too.. if they're lucky enough to end up in the hands of someone who will work with them properly and not just continue to prove to them that indeed people are cruel and untrustworthy.


----------



## Sheppy

> Quote: In 34 years, I think 7 Leerburg dogs went to Sch III according to USA


A minor correction on your interpretation of that USA List. That is the list of handlers who have trained and titled that dog from the initial BH to a SchH3. The SchH3 club is a pretty elite group. Not many handlers ever make B-2-3.

That list is, however, NOT a list of ALL the dogs that have been titled to a SchH3 under the USA clubs. Nor is USA the only organization that offers SchH titles. 

Running a few counts on USA SchH3 Club list, 'Leerburg' appears more often than almost every other American kennel. 

I suspect however, that the number of Leerburg dogs that spent their working careers in patrol cars, on SAR teams or as 'home security' far outnumbers the ones that ever saw a Schutzhund field. 

You will find the same for most other domestic breeders of working dogs. A breeder of working litters is often pretty darn happy if more than one dog in the litter actually gets into an active Schutzhund home. 

Like many others, Ed Frawley's training advice has evolved over the years. The basics have always been to find what motivates the dog, break up the dog's learning into small chunks, train so the dog has success at that chunk, build on that to the next stage. 

Take what works for you. Ignore what doesn't.


----------



## Ocean

There are a lot of training tips on the leerburg site and since it is an open website that anyone with a browser can access it, it is a dilemma. 
The good: it is free, and for some people who would not even be training their dogs otherwise, it can be helpful. Provided that the reader keeps a critical mind. Unfortunately, the dog world is prone to "followership", where people are often looking for all the answers from one source or authority. Just look at the popularity of The Dog Whisperer for example. There are many experts in working dog training and Frawley works with some of them like Bernhard Flinks. Many of these experts do not consider Frawley to be one of them. Just go to any schutzhund club and talk to people.

The bad: because Frawley has a cocksure style of communication, he tends to attract non-critical followers. So when his training advice is wrong or not suitable for your dog, it can have bad repercussions on the dog. For example, he sells a "dominant dog collar". Now, many people with training issues, especially as related to aggression have looked at this device as a quick solution. Unfortunately, most dogs, even working line GSDs are not true dominant alpha dogs, they are just badly trained or raised. GSDs, because they were developed to be a large flock herding dog have a genetic tendency to dominate other animals but that does not mean they are all alphas or pack dominant dogs. This idea of "stringing up" a dog (basically chocking it with a collar until it almost passes out unconscious) is old school training which you can still find in some SchH clubs today but IMHO there are extremely few if any dogs that really need this.


----------



## big_dog7777

Chris,

This is an interesting conversation. Bernard Flinks dedicated a fair amount of time to a specific type of dog that he has had extensive experience with during his seminar. I am looking for your opinion on his methods, which I believe are the basis of much of Ed's current methodology with the most extreme of aggressive dogs. Bernard is known for taking dogs that have been through multiple handlers prior to getting to him. These are very hard very dominant civil dogs that have through handler error been taught that the way to get what they want is by showing aggression. Repeatedly their aggression has been reinforced by being left alone provided they escalate it high enough. He then explained that the first order of business is to make the dog understand that his aggression will not get him what he wants, and in fact not even cause a fight. He gets prepared with a soft sleeve under his shirt and puts one of these "dominant dog collars" on the dog attached to a long line (or multiple long lines strung together) thrown over a tree branch and in the hands of a second person. He then sets up a situation where he is sure to get bit. The example he used was putting down a bowl with high valued food in it, and then calmly with a nice voice approaching the dog and trying to pet him. When the dog moves to bite him he offers the arm with the sleeve. The second that the dog latches on the other person lifts the dog so he is barely off the ground. Bernard calmly just says "no". Once the dog lets go and stops fighting he is lowered. This can happen more than one time during this process. Very quickly the dog understands that his aggression will get him nowhere with Bernard. Bernard then can really begin the bonding process and training the dog in a positive fair manner. He admits openly that he does not like doing this, but in the most extreme of cases he feels the only way to get through to the dog is to take on everything the dog has and in turn make the dog briefly fear for his life. Doing this while keeping the dog and handler safe and not showing aggression from you in the dogs eyes is the only way to accomplish this effectively in his opinion. 

Now, how many dogs are actually going to be at this level of dominant learned aggression? Very very few in my opinion. How many people are actually qualified to make that call and then in turn execute this type of maneuver? Again, very very few and I certainly am not one of them. Should this be suggested to pet owners on the web? I don't know.


----------



## Chris Wild

I need to be careful what I say here. Openly sharing my opinion on Leerburg, based upon not only what is presented on the website but also upon personal experience, would get my posts deleted for being against board rules as well. As it is I'll probably skirt the line and may hop over it.

Though I would like to point out to those reading this thread to look at the sources of the opinions. Most praising Frawley's techniques are novices. There has been little posted in this thread by people who have a good deal of experience working with these same kinds of dogs. There are many people on this board with extensive working dog experience, yet they've for the most part stayed out of this thread. Why? Is it because they didn't notice the thread or don't know enough about Leerburg to form an opinion? Doubtful. Or is it because they can't share their opinions without breaking board rules? Think about it. And consider that those experienced people who have posted had their posts edited or deleted as against board rules. I'll probably be the next.

John,
Yes, I know of Flinks' method. I've discussed it with him in person when I've trained with him. His method has tamed down a bit in recent years, as like all of us he's expanded his knowledge and understanding. And Frawley has been advocating the hanging of dogs long before Flinks even came on sceen and anyone knew who he was. It wasn't Flinks who gave him the idea. Hanging dogs has been around for decades. 

As for Flinks, he does what he does to buy himself some time of relative safety during which he can work on building a bond with the dog. The same thing can be accomplished in non force based, non confrontational ways. We did it and others have too. But, it takes much longer. With the dog we had it took almost a year before we could take a ball or toy from him. Until we got to that point we used tricks (trade for food, put a leash on and tell him to out and then pull him away.. which he was fine with, etc...) and ways of controlling the situation to avoid confrontation. We had no big plans for this dog other than being able to live with him safely for his few remaining years, so there was no rush. If we'd intended to compete with him or sell him, as is Flinks situation, there would have been pressure to get things done quicker, and not spend a year just being able to take the toy from the dog. So as in everything else, the trainers priorities will influence their choice of methods.

But this is still key: 



> Originally Posted By: ZeusGSDChris,
> Bernard then can really begin the bonding process and training the dog in a positive fair manner.


And most people don't move on to do that. They rely on hanging the dog as a long term fix, something they'll have to be prepared to do for the rest of the time they own the dog. And while the dog may learn that his aggressive displays no longer get him what he wants, it hasn't dealt with the underlying cause of those displays: that the dog has learned through experience that humans are brutal, unfair creatures unworthy of loyalty, trust or respect. And in fact, this sort of continued treatment just continues to reinforce the dog's view of people.



> Originally Posted By: ZeusGSD
> Now, how many dogs are actually going to be at this level of dominant learned aggression? Very very few in my opinion. How many people are actually qualified to make that call and then in turn execute this type of maneuver? Again, very very few and I certainly am not one of them. Should this be suggested to pet owners on the web? I don't know.


IMO, NO it should not be suggested to pet owners on the web. This sort of thing is the dog training equivalent of National Security Secrets. It should be shared only amongst people with the experience and knowledge to handle it, who won't jump to conclusions and start doing it to every dog who looks at them crosseyed, and who are dedicated to following it up with true relationship building, not continued abuse.

Internet Dog Training is fatally flawed on a variety of levels. But this sort of advice is more damaging than most. Especially when it is given so frequently to people who have no business even thinking about doing it, for every little problem, with no effort to understand what is really going on or to deal with the underlying problems.

I'll give another example:
A young dog develops a tail chasing obsession. His owner, a complete novice, gets on-line and, as many novices are, is sucked into the illusion of Leerburg as the premier resource of working dog training. He emails Frawley asking for advice. The reply he recieves is to put his dog down becase the dog is crazy or has a neurological problem. No attempt to learn more about the dog, handler and situation and suggest a solution. Just kill the dog.

Fortunately, this guy loves his dog enough to seek out a second opinion before following that advice and since we live nearby he gave me a call. What was the real cause? A young dog (less than 1yo), of working line breeding with very high energy and high drive, owned by a young single guy who while well meaning and totally devoted to the dog is a first time dog owner and completely clueless. Compounded by a Michigan winter that has kept the dog cooped up and deprived him of the exercise and mental stimulation he'd grown accustomed to when the weather was nice. So the dog created his own outlet for his drive and energy and started chasing his tail.

They worked through the tail chasing, and that spring they joined our SchH club for fun and to give the dog a much needed outlet. They are having a ball, and making great progress. Yes, the dog is a bit thin nerved, which leads to a bit of hyperactivity, and a dog that triggers in drive at the drop of a hat and can get a bit hectic and overload in drive. And that certainly contributed to the tail chasing. But he's no worse than the average Malinois and while this will present a few hurdles to overcome in training, moreso because of the huge learning curve his novice handler faces, it won't be a huge problem. And the dog is far from crazy or neurotic. Fortunately this dog's owner questioned the advice he was given and decided to pursue other possible solutions rather than just give up and put his dog to sleep. But how many other people would have, or actually have, followed that advice because it came from the Oracle of Leerburg?


----------



## Cooper&me

This is very interesting post. I apoligize for not seeing it and starting another similar one. I was just all jazzed up after receiving my dvd (8 weeks to 8 minths). Maybe Ed's more advanced training gets extreme. I do not know. His work with puppies seems EXCELLENT!! I also find him very easy to follow. My husband was impressed. (not easy to do.). I also STRONGLY agree no one should be followed blindly.

Too often I see (mostly on the boxer board) that people find one thing objectionable so turn their back on everything. An open, critical mind is needed IMO to find what works.

So far I am currently in love with Ed.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

> Quote: IMO, NO it should not be suggested to pet owners on the web. This sort of thing is the dog training equivalent of National Security Secrets. It should be shared only amongst people with the experience and knowledge to handle it, who won't jump to conclusions and start doing it to every dog who looks at them crosseyed, and who are dedicated to following it up with true relationship building, not continued abuse.


I totally agree with this and was trying to say it well. Thanks for doing it. ETA-And the people who should actually use it, or rather the dogs that doing that would be the ONLY way (is there ever only one way?) to save their lives are more rare than Painite! (give you all something to goodsearch/google)

Everyone thinks their dog is dominant. Well-not everyone, but a lot of people. So they see this and think it is good information and something to do with their dog to get them out of the trash, sit when they say sit, etc. I am not being dramatic about it-it reads as something that will work to get your dog to do what you want it to do. 

So anyway, regardless of where advice comes from that is like that, it's something that can be avoided from what I have seen. I am glad that there was no internet when I got Kramer-I could see me having made more mistakes with him than I already did.


----------



## Wildtim

> Originally Posted By: LouCastleI'm not a fan of either Mr. Frawley or his training.


That pretty much sums it up.


----------



## GrandJan

> Originally Posted By: ZeusGSDNow, how many dogs are actually going to be at this level of dominant learned aggression? Very very few in my opinion. How many people are actually qualified to make that call and then in turn execute this type of maneuver? Again, very very few and I certainly am not one of them. Should this be suggested to pet owners on the web? I don't know.


Ed is very careful to explain that this method is not for everyone, and that if you do attempt it, you better know what you are doing.

He also does not advocate the alpha roll for anyone less than extremely qualified.

Unless you are and have been very familiar with all of Ed’s posts, podcasts, videos, articles, etc., I don’t think it is fair to make a general statement that he is “old school” because you don’t agree with one or two of his training methods.

I'll admit that I am less than experienced with my gentle giants, but they have the same general obedience problems that any one else's dogs have. His (and the forum's) advice is always positive, positive, positive training. The same as here.

I also believe the aggressive dogs he deals with are not meant to be house pets who cuddle on the couch and live their lives out chasing balls and fetching sticks. They are working dogs who will be rehabilitated and then continue to work.

As someone said, read everything and then use what you want. Just don't make the mistake of generalizing from one or two statements.


----------



## Wildtim

> Originally Posted By: mjb03I have read a lot of negative comments on this board. I am surprised how heavily this one was edited by the admin. Does that speak to Ed's power in the industry?


No it just speaks to the depth of feeling Ed tends to inspire even in very articulate, skilled and intelligent individuals.

There is some pretty good stuff on his site, a lot of somewhat helpful information. There is also so much junk there from the useless, or banal to the cruel and downright dangerous that you must tread very lightly through his world of information to find the few nuggets of copper there. I would suggest that often this isn't worth doing as better answers can be found faster elsewhere using less contentious methods from more supportive people.


----------



## Wildtim

> Originally Posted By: GrandJan
> 
> Ed is very careful to explain that this method is not for everyone, and that if you do attempt it, you better know what you are doing.
> 
> He also does not advocate the alpha roll for anyone less than extremely qualified.
> 
> Unless you are and have been very familiar with all of Ed’s posts, podcasts, videos, articles, etc., I don’t think it is fair to make a general statement that he is “old school” because you don’t agree with one or two of his training methods.


Fine as someone who is very familiar with his videos and methods I'll say it. Hes "old school" in the worst way. For proof see above "alpha roll"



> Originally Posted By: GrandJan
> I'll admit that I am less than experienced with my gentle giants, but they have the same general obedience problems that any one else's dogs have. His (and the forum's) advice is always positive, positive, positive training. The same as here.
> 
> I also believe the aggressive dogs he deals with are not meant to be house pets who cuddle on the couch and live their lives out chasing balls and fetching sticks. They are working dogs who will be rehabilitated and then continue to work.


The interesting thing is that if the methods he suggests for your "Gentle Giants" were followed these dogs would not need rehab. Also if these positive methods are his method of choice why does he resort to force at the first sign of aggression. There are no dogs so aggressive that they can't be house pets who live their lives chasing sticks unless we make them that way or they have a medical condition. No matter what job the do when on the clock.


----------



## GrandJan

> Originally Posted By: Chris WildThough I would like to point out to those reading this thread to look at the sources of the opinions. Most praising Frawley's techniques are novices. There has been little posted in this thread by people who have a good deal of experience working with these same kinds of dogs. There are many people on this board with extensive working dog experience, yet they've for the most part stayed out of this thread. Why? Is it because they didn't notice the thread or don't know enough about Leerburg to form an opinion? Doubtful. Or is it because they can't share their opinions without breaking board rules? Think about it. And consider that those experienced people who have posted had their posts edited or deleted as against board rules. I'll probably be the next.


That's fine, but there are many more people who simply need help with basic obedience training.

You have every right to oppose his 'hard-line' training methods, but why are you lumping everything he does together and labeling it disagreeable?


----------



## Chris Wild

I'm not intending to lump everything he does as disagreeable. There is some good information on his site and in his videos. There are good motivational techniques as well as old school ones. But it is information that can also be gleaned elsewhere from other sources, often in a less expensive form, without having to wade through lots of dangerous training advice.

The biggest problem I see is that many people latch onto a particular person as their mentor, and often when that happens they stop questioning. They follow the advice blindly. Especially if some of it works, they're more likely to follow the rest without thinking about it.

Some people have better gut reactions than others, and are more likely to pause and think before following advice. Some have enough common sense, knowledge and experience to be able to sort the good from the bad, take what they can use and throw out the rest. But many people will blindly follow someone they view as a teacher or leader, whether they should or not. *Most* people are this way, as has actually been proven by dozens of different psychology experiments. It's human nature.

This is where I get concerned. Nothing on Leerburg is revolutionary. None of it is a well kept secret of dog training that only Frawley will share. There are plenty of other sources where the good information can be learned, without risking the disaster that can occur from also picking up the bad or dangerous information.


----------



## GrandJan

> Originally Posted By: Chris WildThe biggest problem I see is that many people latch onto a particular person as their mentor, and often when that happens they stop questioning. They follow the advice blindly. Especially if some of it works, they're more likely to follow the rest without thinking about it.
> 
> Some people have better gut reactions than others, and are more likely to pause and think before following advice. Some have enough common sense, knowledge and experience to be able to sort the good from the bad, take what they can use and throw out the rest. But many people will blindly follow someone they view as a teacher or leader, whether they should or not. *Most* people are this way, as has actually been proven by dozens of different psychology experiments. It's human nature.


I absolutely agree with this, and I was one of them. I was also such a beginner that I needed to be told exactly what to do and when to do it. His was the first forum I found when searching for dog training and I learned so very, very much. I can also extend the same sentiments to this forum. I continue to learn from both.

I also have an absolute passion for animals, and I could not and would not take/use any advice that I felt was detrimental or dangerous to the health and welfare of my dogs – and that goes for his forum or this forum or any other forum out there.

My point is simply that just because ‘you’ don’t agree with something, it doesn’t make that something wrong.

I will admit the Leerburg site is not for everyone. It is a no-nonsense, strictly training forum. As a matter of fact, I usually only browse it now because it is more of a ‘working dog’ forum than a pet forum. I don’t have working dogs and much of the information does not pertain to me and is certainly over my head. However, I still keep up with the extensive amount of health and raw feeding information.


----------



## dOg

I'm going to chip in here only to say anyone with decades of experience is worth examining. Also, the fact that the older guy is more into marking than administering level 10 corrections reveals the experience has taught him something. 

Is he the messiah of dog training? Certainly not. Is the site useful to both a novice and the veteran handler? Yes. 

Do people take the time to separate the flyspeck from the pepper?
Not often enough, or the shelters would not be so full of failures.

Folks want a quick fix, and there are none...and often quick fixes are exactly why fixes become needed. They are more often than not the mistakes made by assuming quick is better.

But new school psychology is WAY to many volumes of words for the novice. So a few episodes of Milan, a few reads of Leerburg, and they're off and running...perhaps ruining, or perhaps learning there
is more to it than any opinion in words can teach. And if we're lucky,
perhaps realizing the true teacher is standing there on four paws,
and it takes time together to work things out! 

Success can only come when that time together is enough. You can see it plainly when success occurs, and you can bet your life, there's
simply been a lot of time together devoted to the relationship, or success doesn't happen.


----------



## big_dog7777

Chris,

Thank you for your insight. That makes perfect sense, and provides a crystal clear explanation of what Bernard does and more importantly his key to success with these dogs... what he does AFTER "hanging" a dog in regards to fair, consistent leadership and positive training methods in order to build a bond. Time constraints and training objectives will obviously change methodology. Just as with any other training tool or approach, when done properly to the right dog it can be effective and in turn when done improperly by someone that does not know what they are doing can do more harm than good. This, I assume, is why many experienced trainers take issue with Leerburg having these methods posted for the common pet owner to see.

As with most things, I think there is a lot of good information on the Leerburg site provided you do not view it as a bible. Take what you like and combine it with other sources of information to create a balanced training approach. I've only been training GSD's for ten years, the most of that time working with just pets. During that ten years I have changed everything that I do - from nutrition on down to training methodology. Most of the experienced trainers I have spent time with have changed methodology drastically from where they began as well. Most information out there has at least bits and pieces that are effective making them a good resource. Yes, some are better than others.


----------



## lhczth

The best advice I can give about this topic is that people should go watch a person train dogs before trusting in everything they say or write on message boards and websites.


----------



## Timber1

I know few things about Ed Frawley, aside from the fact that he is very opinionated.

My son ordered a video from Ed and had a few questions. The kid has a yellow lab that is doing very well in the Cabela's Dock Diving stuff. Ed's responses were positive and very supportive.

My GSD's breeder has been in love with the breed for at least twenty-five years. But she struggles. I am convinced most breeder's do it for the love of the dog, not $$$. Ed has been very supportive of her efforts, providing help with training, etc.

Someone commented that most praising Ed's techniques are novices. Wow, what foul line did that come from.


----------



## Cooper&me

Hey Ed has been to our place. My husband kept saying how fimiliar he looked. I found his registration to a horse clinic we had last year. HE WAS SO NICE. He called ahead to see if we had any exceptions to our no dogs allowed policy. We said no. He never mentioned what he did for a living or how great his dogs were.

I finished both videos.
I really liked 8 weeks to 8 months.
How to be your dogs pack leader was a waste of money. It was half infomercial and half over the top. Iedas maybe good for a "hard" puppy but not the average joe.


----------



## luvsheps

He breeds I believe East Lines I have no use for. I have talked via phone with Ed, do not care for his attitude.

One can pick n choose what they like of what he does or suggests as good??


----------



## Joker

I'm not going to comment to much on what Ed has on the net. Much of it is very old some is not. His advice should be taken in general not as the holly grail common scence should prevail.
Iv trained and BBQ'ed out at Ed's on several occasions he offered his facility to our club just to hang out and get our dogs on a different fields and had he was nothing but gracious helpful and non judgemental. 
Cindy was a member of our club for a while Ed would hang out and bs and watch training didnt interfere with Cindy or out TD wile training. Our club was invited out to one of the Flinks seminars to watch at no charge and we were offered a discount if we wanted to participate. Bernard's son Michael was with and Cindy drug him out to training at our club and he worked out dogs and hung out with us. That was allot of fun.
We have had Ivan and Michael Ellis up for seminars and Ed and Cindy have shown up we offer them free access but he insisted on paying.
The local ring club brings Michael up on a regular basis and I here Ed and Cindy have been participating.
So I guess I'm offering a different perspective of Ed I'm not trying to defend him or dispute any one opinions dealings with him. 
I'm just giving my firsthand perspective.


----------



## Maryn

> Originally Posted By: Historian
> 
> I think there is a lot of really good information on the site, based on his experience working and owning dogs. There is some information that I don't agree with, such as not letting other people pet your dog, but a lot that I've found very useful over the years. I frequently point people to the article on the prong collar and the articles on ground work and dog parks.


Same here. I have read alot of his articles on the site, and many have some good and helpful info. Some I think are a bit off, the 'who can pet my puppy' is one I don't agree with, like you.

In general I have found it to be a helpful resource, but doubt I will be buying DVDs or products from the site. I like books and equipment from pysical -gotta walk in and look- stores LOL


----------



## RubyTuesday

I've known an astonishing # of people who can't distinguish dogs happily playing from dogs trying to kill each other. People constantly worried my Husky & IW were seriously fighting, yet in the years they lived together there wasn't so much as a drop of blood shed or a single injury.

Given how many people misinterpret canine actions, interactions, motivations it's beyond irresponsible to describe how to 'hang' a dog on the internet. IF it should ever be done, it certainly shouldn't be done by people seeking help online.

Chris, Tim, I think(&hope) your posts to this thread will be well heeded. Given the esteem the GSD community, & those on this board have for you, that seems likely.

'First do no harm' from the Hippocratic oath is applicable to dog trainers, too.


----------



## CAB

You've definitly got to take Frawleys advice with a pinch or salt or else you might be putting your dog down because he doesn't track properly...


----------



## Timber1

Craig, please provide specifics regarding your comment or it is worthless. Per you, putting your dog down because he doesn't track perfectly. Perhaps you need to support that comment.

For Chris and Tim Wild. I cannot disagree with any of your comments because I do not know Ed personally. and have never hired him to work with my German Shepherd.

However, for whatever reason my son has personally contacted Ed and gotten good advice on his Labs, one a very high end competitive dog, the other an absolute nut case. And Ed never suggested putting the nut case, Dozer, down. I was shocked David and Ed would even communicate, because Ed is a GSD guy, and David has his labs.

For those of you from Wisconsin, unlike many, the competitive dog my son has is named "Jumpin George" so if you see us at competitions please introduce yourself. We are sponsored by Fleet Farm, along with three other companies.

Ed also supports and helps my breeder, and has for years. 

Is Ed Opionated, heck yes, but I kinda like that, good or bad.


----------



## LedZep

Seems Ed Frawley polarizes people quite a bit. I have mentioned, but will say again, that at least he is offering a full product line including videos that show the methods and make it much easier to understand and follow. 

For those who think he is harsh, cruel, or negligent - you need to meet the barbarian that I had a consultation with recently. I have no doubt that this trainer beats dogs into submission and calls it training.

I too like that Ed is opinionated. I want to learn from someone that has the strength of his/her convictions. He actually concedes to many other techniques as "okay, I guess" in his videos, even though it is not the method he uses or recommends. So far, not everyone I've read on this forum is so open minded!

I respect everyone's opinion (until I learn a reason not to) and think this forum is a great place. Everyone is sharing opinions without resorting to personal attacks and name calling, as can happen so many times. 

When we starting watching Frawley's video for the first time, my wife and I both liked him. He comes across as straight forward, what you see is what you get, and I like that. He also seems sincere and genuine in his passion for the art of training, where some just seem to be franchising some fad techniques to make a few quick bucks.


----------



## GunnerJones

I'll say it if no one else will, I suspect jealosy and envy of a person who is successful in in the dog training business which appears to be very competative. Throw in the old saw of "The only thing two trainers agree on is the third one is doing it wrong" and arguments are assured. I've used his training tapes and other products with great success and savings. I can not speak to his bite work,tracking, or detection tapes tapes nor to the quality of his dogs but I would certainly put them on my list to look at if I was in the market for them.

I'll also say ppl's opinion of him is skewed do to his politics and his "to the point" manner. I would reccommend his training over "PetSmart" style of training to novice trainers anyday.

I don't agree with his idea of NOT vaccinating dogs and have posted so on his forum, of course I was told to go pound sand but I'm not going to reject everything else he says just on that one point.


----------



## lemans

> Originally Posted By: LedZep
> some just seem to be franchising some fad techniques to make a few quick bucks.


Hmmm....


----------



## The Stig

I have had wonderful success using his training methods with my pup through both his articles and DVDs. And from my limited experience with him through personal correspondence, he strikes me as a humble man with a dry sense of humour. 

As far as I am concerned, as long as I see positive results with my puppy, I know I am doing something right through him. And being a person of stalwart common sense, I am in line with most of his training philosophies.

As for being opinionated, which trainer does not possess that quality. Or most people for that matter. 

It is not peculiar just to Mr Frawley. I have met trainers and/or people who have been under certain trainers, and they all have their beliefs which they swear by. I have seen such attitudes in the world of aviculture, parenting, etc. It's rampant. Everyone has his or her principles to live by, and we as individuals are free to accept or reject them. That's the beauty of it ... 

But there will always be people who disagree with a certain well-known trainer and those who think the cat's whiskers of him/her. 

So take what you can get from what people think of him, but use one's own common sense to decide if a certain method is right for your DOG or not. 

Just my humble two cents' worth.

~ Rei


----------

