# Torn About Puppy? Rescue? Or supporting a BYB?



## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

I have stumbled across a 4 month old puppy that is for adoption from his breeder. The quandary is this, by 'rescuing' this pup, am I supporting a BYB or should I view it like any other rescue organization where you wouldn't necessarily be adopting a dog with the best parentage?

A bit of background, the parents pedigree seems to be a mixture of working/showlines, some are OFA'd some not (including neither of the parents).

The puppy was kept because it developed a corneal dermoid and an eye specialist performed surgery which is said to have been 100 percent effective (and is the course of treatment for this condition). The adoption cost looks to be about the cost of the surgery depending on how much that particular doctor charged, possibly less than the cost.

I'm quite torn .. I can't just pick up and trot over to see him (it's 4 1/2 hours away). I like that he's an older puppy, but then I worry that he is too old (I just sent an email asking about any socialization that he may have had). Should I steel myself and keep looking?


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

I would look at it as purchasing a pup from a breeder. If it's a breeder you are comfortable supporting, purchase the pup. If not, keep looking. It is not a rescue.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

The "breeder" did an expensive surgery and now wants to recoup the cost of that surgery by selling this dog to someone? This is not an adoption, this is someone covering the costs of their mistake. What you're doing is giving a person more capital in order to continue doing what they're doing (breeding dogs) rather than giving a rescue more capital in order to continue rescuing more dogs.

The way I look at paying adoption fees at a rescue is that I'm donating money for them to help other dogs and opening a spot up for another dog to come in and have the opportunity to get saved. If you're paying a fee to someone that bred the dog and plans on doing more, you're giving them the money to pay for more breeding supplies and taking a dog off their hands so they have more time to breed dogs.

If this dog was free...I'd take it in a heart beat. But I wouldn't support giving money to someone that just plans on making more dogs.

The way I'm reading it is that you're like most people and are rationalizing "saving" this puppy. This dog doesn't need "rescuing/saving" it already has a home (with the breeder) and they're trying to get rid of it due to health reasons or whatever else.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I will say that I'm surprised the byb paid to have the surgery to correct the puppy's eye. They could have just dumped it and cut their loses. 

I don't think I'd pay the cost of surgery from them. If they really want to do right by the pup, they should attempt to find the best home possible and charge a discounted rate. Not attempt to re-coop thier expenses.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

I see it a little differently. If the person is only charging the cost of the surgery, and not charging an additional cost for the puppy, then how is that different from giving away the puppy and the new owner paying for the surgery themselves?


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

Always nice to know I am 'like most people'. Far be it for me to think outside the box! 'grin' Perhaps rescue was a misnomer .. maybe I should have said 'nab a puppy' instead?

I have no experience with this kind of surgery and have no idea what it does actually cost. Considering what it costs just for routine vet care (seems like it is at least $200 every time one of my animals gets sick!), I would be surprised if what he's asking would recoup what he has spent.

I guess partially it's the frustration of wanting an older puppy in a 'they are sold and gone by 7 or 8 weeks' world.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

We always say, never give away a puppy because of what can happen to it so not sure why anyone would have an issue with the puppy being sold for the cost of the surgery. Since this is a congenital condition, I don't know how the breeders are covering a "mistake". 
Corneal Dermoid
From what I'm reading, this could happen to any dog randomly. My own had a lump similar to this in her neck. 

Look at the breeder, if you see any red flags, then pass.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Lilie said:


> *I don't think I'd pay the cost of surgery from them*. If they really want to do right by the pup, they should attempt to find the best home possible and charge a discounted rate. Not attempt to re-coop thier expenses.


Not knowing the original cost of the puppy, I suppose my mistake was making an assumption. 

I was thinking the price of a byb puppy was around $500 (or less). My brain thought that surgery would cost more than the original cost of the puppy, so the byb was attempting to sell the pup at the cost of surgery to re-coop their expenses. 

No reason for me to think that. I could very well be wrong. I've been wrong before. I know, I was suprised too.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

Lilie your number is right on. I would assume that the surgery more than that, but like I said I have no idea .


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> . I like that he's an older puppy, but then I worry that he is too old


First off, there's no such thing as "too old", any age of dog can adapt to a new home.
I'm curious about the price of the puppy, but figured you'd tell us if it was something you wanted us to know 

We got in a Sheltie here a while back into rescue, purebred dog, not a bad looking little guy either, fairly young. 
Lady was giving him away because "he barked too much"  And that was because she purchased him as a cute little puppy from the PET STORE. 
Well, we got to checking and he either had a chip or came with papers or both, but we traced the breeder back to Missouri I believe, a big puppy mill state, whichever it was.
And I contacted her myself! She was actually concerned that he was in a rescue...LOL I mean here she sells them to a pet store, what did she think was going to happen!?

But anyway I contacted the gal because this dog appeared to be neutered and as you may be aware, there's no way to tell if he's been neutered or if he was a cryptorchid, and he came from the petstore neutered, or testicle-less either way. I was worried it was the latter, since I'd never heard of puppies coming into Pet Stores already altered.

But the puppy miller told me if they have an umbilical hernia or inguinal hernia which, this puppy had one or the other, she has the vet perform surgery and spay/neuter the puppy while they are at it.

Now, if a puppy miller could do that, surely a BYB could dog an eye surgery


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

By too old, I just mean that I worried about his socialization or lack of since that's an important age for it. I'm not really worried about his fitting in at my house, but I plan to have him out and doing obedience and walking at the park (not play dates or anything like that, I am happy if he's indifferent to other dogs, people, just don't want him to DA/PA).


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## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

If the health problems sounds like a drag and could spend tons of money on it. If you don't want to deal with that keep searching for GSDs that are very healthy with no health problems!!


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

I take it you didn't look at what the 'health problem' was. Not to say I'm going to get this pup, but there are NO guarantees with any pup, including from top breeders. Things DO happen. Puppies are a crapshoot. Yes, it's a good basis to start from a good breeder/good lines, but the future can be murky. I've read of many here finding that out through not fault of their own. They did their homework, but sometimes things just .. happen.


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## gowen (Nov 4, 2011)

Galathiel said:


> I take it you didn't look at what the 'health problem' was. Not to say I'm going to get this pup, but there are NO guarantees with any pup, including from top breeders. Things DO happen. Puppies are a crapshoot. Yes, it's a good basis to start from a good breeder/good lines, but the future can be murky. I've read of many here finding that out through not fault of their own. They did their homework, but sometimes things just .. happen.


What defines this breeder as a BYB? Is their "Dam bred till she bled' or tied up to a chain outside? Livinig in horrible conditions? Malnourished? These things usually define BYB. Somebody who breeds strictly for profit and could give a rats behind about the owner or puppy.

If the owner is truly, what we call the derogatory word, Backyard Breeder (aka Junkyard breeders), I doubt they would have even done the surgery and just put the dog out of its misery or pawned it off to a rescue. 

There is no requirement, qualification, or degree required to breed outside of the BYB status. I see renowned breeders here that breed in their homes/yards and are considered "quality" and not backyard breeders..


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Assuming this is a byb and you are only considering this dog because of the health issue, it still doesn't sit well with me. I think in this situation both parties are getting a benefit and there isn't a "net cost" left over that needs to be made up with cash. The breeder is opening up a spot in their kennel, you're getting a dog to love and care for. Cash is just going to support the breeder's already questionable practices.

To me if the breeder truly cared about this pup...they'd do the surgery, cover the price, and then try to find the puppy a good home. The breeder I got my pup from just had a 1 year old returned to them, they're going to hold on to her until she finds a home and provide her with everything she needs up to that point (heartworm, vaccines, ect), I told them I'd help find her a home (I'm part of a breed club) and they said they wouldn't ask for anything for her as long as the family checked out.

I hope you didn't take my comment about "like most people" as a bad thing. I just hear it and see it all the time about how people have "rescued" their dogs from their terrible upbringings after finding them on craiglist and seeing the conditions they were growing up with. They paid $200 for the puppy and went on their way, and hey, its not much more than the local HS charges so its like a rescue. I think people equate price paid to rescue/purchase. If the dog cost $500 or more, its a purchase, if its less, its a rescue, which isn't right. Any amount of money in that breeder's pocket is supporting what they're doing and is just going to get them to do it more.

Are you looking for a really young pup but also want to rescue? Is that why you're interested in this one?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

gowen said:


> What defines this breeder as a BYB? Is their "Dam bred till she bled' or tied up to a chain outside? Livinig in horrible conditions? Malnourished? These things usually define BYB. Somebody who breeds strictly for profit and could give a rats behind about the owner or puppy.
> 
> If the owner is truly, what we call the derogatory word, Backyard Breeder (aka Junkyard breeders), I doubt they would have even done the surgery and just put the dog out of its misery or pawned it off to a rescue.
> 
> There is no requirement, qualification, or degree required to breed outside of the BYB status. I see renowned breeders here that breed in their homes/yards and are considered "quality" and not backyard breeders..


On here it covers those breeders that are just throwing their pets together and breeding them without any knowledge of the lines. They don't work or show their dogs in any venues and are just expecting their two pets to make some more good pets. It doesn't really have anything to do with the conditions the dogs are raised in, or where the breeding takes place...its more about the WHY the breeding is done. Are these people with a goal to improve the breed as a whole or are they just producing 10 puppies every 6 months and making a healthy profit due to not having any training/showing costs and not proving their dogs are breed worthy.


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## gowen (Nov 4, 2011)

martemchik said:


> On here it covers those breeders that are just throwing their pets together and breeding them without any knowledge of the lines. They don't work or show their dogs in any venues and are just expecting their two pets to make some more good pets. It doesn't really have anything to do with the conditions the dogs are raised in, or where the breeding takes place...its more about the WHY the breeding is done. Are these people with a goal to improve the breed as a whole or are they just producing 10 puppies every 6 months and making a healthy profit due to not having any training/showing costs and not proving their dogs are breed worthy.


I was more questioning the OP why they considered the breeder a BYB. I am aware that the term is subject to personal opinion and personal prejudice.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

OP, if you are comfortable with this person and he/she emails back that the pup has been well socialized, I would definitely consider him. He may be just what you are looking for. That the eye surgery was done speaks well of this person. If she is not trying to recoup the entire cost of the surgery, has vaccinated the dog and cared for it these past months, I doubt she is making any money. Perhaps she is charging a certain fee to ensure the pup goes to a good home. We always advocate for no free dogs. You may find that if you are willing to take on this pup and the breeder is confident you will provide a good home, the price may be reduced.

Best of luck on making this decision.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> OP, if you are comfortable with this person and he/she emails back that the pup has been well socialized, I would definitely consider him.


Since the OP knows the pup has had surgery, at least they know it's had experiance at a vet clinic!!


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

sorry - I think that it is NOT a crime for the breeder to place/sell the puppy at a fee to cover the vet expenses....giving it away is a big NO NO in our general peer group, right? Dumping it at a shelter with medical needs is a big NO NO too! The pup was taken care of, money was spent on vet care (and socialization happens here too), and there is no 'profit' if the OP pays that amount for the puppy....

BYB, in my mind, come in a couple of varieties - some are pet people who just throw 2 dogs together because they have AKC papers...they don't health test, they don't train or test, they breed for any number of well worn reasons that are invalid in the minds of most more knowledgeable or educated (in dog stuff) people. There are many people who step it up while still being BYB by a little knowledge and doing a few things like doing OFA and buying breeding stock from solid backgrounds - and proceeding to take it downhill from there...breeding every heat and selling pups in the Sunday paper (do those still exist??? LOL LOL Sunday papers that is!)

I would not worry about socialization, if the pup is "too old" or if the breeder is making money - this is not a 'rescue' though - it is buying a pup from a breeder - of what type is unknown.....

Lee


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## BMWHillbilly (Oct 18, 2012)

Who cares what anyone else thinks. if you want the puppy go for it! I've said it before on here and get lambasted each time but every puppy deserves a home despite what people say on here about _supposedly_ supporting BYBer's. In most people's minds on here they want to preserve the breed and cull the herd of any puppy not born to a "legit" or "professional" breeder noted in an AKA registry or their choice of breeder, etc. They just don't seem to realize that there are and always will be "breeders" that are not up to _their_ standards. I know there are some wonderful pups born to non specific breeders. That is just a fact. if the price is no object you may just get that one in a million heart dog. The puppy doesn't know any different. It is the humans that want the prestige and registry paperwork to hang over your head and judge you on your choice.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

By backyard breeder, I meant that, from what I can tell, the parents are not health tested, however it looks like at least the sire's parents were and on back in the pedigree. The adult dogs are primarily outside, only coming in to visit, even though they don't seem to have that many (so could live in the house in my opinion 'grin'). No health guaranty, etc. etc.

I'm looking for a pup preferably between 12-16 weeks. That kinda misses the window for most breedings as the pups seem to leave at 7 or 8 weeks and I want one just a little bit older. I work away from home all day and while I can squeeze in a trip home in the middle of the day for a quick outside potty break and lunch, I am not able to leave every couple of hours like I would prefer if it were a really young puppy.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Galathiel said:


> By backyard breeder, I meant that, from what I can tell, the parents are not health tested, however it looks like at least the sire's parents were and on back in the pedigree. The adult dogs are primarily outside, only coming in to visit, even though they don't seem to have that many (so could live in the house in my opinion 'grin'). No health guaranty, etc. etc.
> 
> I'm looking for a pup preferably between 12-16 weeks. That kinda misses the window for most breedings as the pups seem to leave at 7 or 8 weeks and I want one just a little bit older. I work away from home all day and while I can squeeze in a trip home in the middle of the day for a quick outside potty break and lunch, I am not able to leave every couple of hours like I would prefer if it were a really young puppy.


When you put it that way - that is, you know about all the drawbacks (no health testing, etc.) why do it? Why not either 1) save up and buy a nicely bred dog with health tested lineage; or 2) rescue? 

Because at the end of the day, you've encouraged someone to keep breeding their UNhealth-tested dogs, (and that's why these breeds are in such dire straights today), or you've supported a rescue who will use your hard earned money to go rescue more dogs.
Choice seems clear to me :shrug:


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