# Choke Collar for Puppies?



## max&me

Based on what I have read and heard, most people say that it is OK to use choke collars for adults dogs for correction or training, but not for puppies. I am curious why this is. Is it a physical or phsycological reason?


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## Amaruq

Actually I don't prefer to use the choke collar at all. Regardless of age it can damage the neck/throat but ANY collar misused can cause similar damage. If you are successful at training your puppy to fully understand the use of any correction collar on an adult would be minimal or non-existent.


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## ILGHAUS

I don't use choke collars on a dog of any age because of the damage that can be caused. And, I don't believe in using any type of correction collar until the dog is old enough to have learned something well enough to be corrected.


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## dOg

Both physical and psychological...

Pups don't need corrections, they need praise, tons of it.
They need to learn thru marking behaviors with que command words what those words mean thru repetition. (e.g. pup happens to sit, immediately hears "good SIT!") 
Building the bond between you and the pup can take a huge set back
if compulsion is used before commands are understood. Patience and
nurturing the infant ( though getting larger daily) will get you further faster at this stage of the game.

Corrections have a place, but not for many months, after commands are known. Work on COME first, let it be your reset button. Keep training sessions short, leaving pup wanting more, always end on a success. Train in several locations to generalize the words, because a sit in the house is very different from one at the park.

When you do decide it's time for training collar and corrections, hopefully the pup will know all the basic commands and be pretty reliable with them. And then the regular choke is not the best option.

So the short answer to topic question is NO!


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## max&me

thanks. answered my questions.


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## selzer

I have used choke chains for over thirty years, and have NEVER had a dog's throat/trachea damaged. 

Even when Frodo was stuck to the deck with one (left it on him, my bad), so that he could not breath, it did NOT cause any damage to his throat/trachea.

Personally, I think it is possible if you hang the dog up by a choke chain until it is unconscious or leave it on the dog until it is imbedded in the dog's neck. But prongs would cause as much damange. Even flat collars can cause ugly, nasty infested wounds in such circumstances. 

Prong people love to cite all the damage that chokers have done, and I have yet to meet one person with a dog injured by a choke chain. It is a training tool, but has been villianized by the prong followers. 

I do not use a choke chain to correct a dog, it is simply used to ensure that the dog does not slip its collar. Tags are on the collar, leash is on a martingale or choke chain. If there is an equipment malfunction, dog is either still connected, or the dog still has tags on. 

I prefer to use a martingale on puppies. This is because you can inadvertantly correct with a choker. The martingale is not a correction collar so it does not offer that possibility. I would use a choker on a puppy if I did not have martingale handy though. Keeping the pup safe is first. If you do not jerk it around, the pup will not get the correction. However, you must ensure that the pup is not straining against the lead choking itself the entire time. So until a puppy has an idea of how to walk on a lead, a martingale is a better answer.


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## onyx'girl

Great reply dOg! I wish that could be posted at the beginning obedience classes everywhere!!!


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## Liesje

Sue, I too use choke collars (well, I use slip leads and slip collars on all my dogs in various situations), but the damage that is cited in the studies I believe was discovered during necropsy. The dogs were on prongs or chokes for extended periods of time and their tracheas were examined after death. I think that is one of the main points of the study, that incorrect prolonged use *does* cause damage that you do not see. Just because the dog isn't bleeding or broken doesn't mean there isn't damage being done. That is exactly why the choke collars can be dangerous. With a prong your dog will yelp, or God forbid actually bleed, and you will hopefully realize you are doing something majorly wrong, but the choke collar is constant pressure over time.


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## GSDinOly

I just think we have to remember the differences between the choke collar and the prong collar as stated above and be sure to use them correctly. For instance, if a choke collar is put on backwards, it can tighten and not loosen, and then damage could happen because it just gets tighter and tighter.... I do not use one yet on my pup, we'll save that for when she is older when and if harder corrections are ever needed


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## selzer

A choke collar properly used does not put pressure on the dog's neck save for during a quick correction. They can definitely be used without any correction.

I use one with Babs. She looks at it as her go-to-work collar. She NEVER needs a correction, NOT EVER. That's Babs. 

I can and have used just the flat collar with Babs. But in the ring, we cannot have the tags on the dog. Instead of wearing two collars and just pulling the one off, I use a choke with her all the time, with a collar and tags. I just take the tag-collar off when going into the ring. 

Choke chains, flat collars, and martingales are accepted at AKC shows, head collars, harnesses, prong collars and e-collars are not. I do not want to become dependent on a collar I cannot use in the ring, so I only use stuff I can use in the ring. 

You can abuse or misuse ANY training tool. The idea of drawing blood with a prong collar makes me a bit sick. People who do that should not own dogs.


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## onyx'girl

Well, Sue you are an informed dog person, it is the people who purchase them because they are so cheap and use them incorrectly that causes the problems.
I went to a party at my BIL's this weekend and the choc lab that was there was on a choke, tight. I told them to get a no-slip adjustable and take that thing off. My other SIL had her dog on one and tied her out on it...I told her the same thing(along with a couple horror stories), it is uninformed people who don't know anybetter.
Back 20-30 yrs ago they were so commonplace, and many people do not change. I see them all the time on dogs. The local SPCA rescue uses them because they are cheap, and then the adoptees aren't told to get another alternative, so will use them as well. That was one thing I preached over and over when I went to the adoption events, to get a different collar for the new dog.
I believe they do cause injuries, in these instances and just because it isn't visible, the dog may have breathing problems or trouble swallowing, the owner has no clue what the reason is for it.


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## IliamnasQuest

I have personally SEEN the damage done by choke chains, and will never use them on my dogs again. 

I have personally seen the damage done by a PROPERLY fitted and PROPERLY worn choke chain on one of my OWN dogs. He ended up with a staph infection around his neck, caused by the soft tissue damage from a single pop on the choke chain. And if I hadn't been extremely sensitive to his behaviors, I would have never noticed it.

The problem people have is that no one really looks through the fur and realizes what kind of damage is being done. Since the choke chain doesn't generally cause bleeding, many people seem blissfully oblivious to the dangers and continue to use this archaic tool.

I don't feel that a dog is truly trained unless you can handle it regardless of what is on its neck (or not on its neck). The choke chain is a poor training tool and with the knowledge and tools available today it really surprises me to find that people still choose this as their "training" collar. I would love to see AKC ban the choke chain, but they won't because of the conformation use of it. They don't want to lose their money-makers. I was glad to see that they now allow the martingale, and I am seeing more and more knowledgeable people using the flat collars or martingales in the obedience ring (which I personally think is a mark of a person who is learning NOT to depend on the collar).

The only good use I've found for my old choke chains is to fasten gates shut (or use as toilet paper holders). I keep a nice clean black martingale for using in the obedience ring and can transfer it from dog to dog as needed since it's adjustable.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## Liesje

FWIW, I use them basically to move a dog from point A to point B, like from the crate to the vet's office. Dog's are training loose leash walking, etc. It's simply the easiest thing to use (my dogs don't really have their own collars that they wear all the time) and something they can't slip, should something terrible happen and the dog panics, which has never happened to me but I know of someone else who lost a dog months ago and is still looking for it, b/c the dog got away from a tech at the vet's office. When I volunteered at the animal shelter we were only allowed to use nylon chokes. Not ideal but way too many dogs had been slipping collars and escaping or going after other dogs. When it's your own dog you can be held accountable for training, but when it's a stray or surrender for an unknown reason we have to assume the dog has no training and is reactive, so a slip lead is the safest way to allow the dog to be walked outside.

I use Fursaver collars all the time but not on the "choke" ring. I love the Fursaver _because_ you can quickly attach a lead to any link. The only use it has in training is a safety precaution. For example if I'm working Nikon's obedience in the ring with another dog I attach an 8' lead on a dead link on the Fursaver and should he try to take off or go after the other dog's toy, he can't, but it's not being use for corrections.

In the conformation we do, the dogs are shown on Fursaver collars but always on a dead link. So I don't see why the AKC couldn't ban the use of chokes. When Nikon did the CGC I asked if the Fursaver was OK and told her we only used the dead ring and she said I could use the live ring if I wanted, which seemed sort of odd.


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## selzer

Babs had a staph infection on her belly, I suppose I better stop popping her with that dam choke chain under there.

No, really, I wonder if your choke chain had been tried on in the store by a dog with a staph infection. 

I suppose staph infections could just go away, but I have found that they often cause a dog to lose hair. I have NEVER had a dog lose hair around the neck. I have never seen my dogs get a rash around their neck. 

I am also not going to buy it because I heard one person say they had an infection due to one proper leash pop on a properly fitted choke chain. 

I would be more inclined to believe that the dog is sensitive to the metal used to make the choker.


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## Liesje

Well I don't know anyone whose dog has been knowingly injured by one either, but I also don't know anyone that has necropsied their dog following prolonged use with choke collars.


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## selzer

I have never had a dog with a breathing or swallowing problem. 

Saying that dogs in a study were subjected to choke chains over a long period, then necropsied, and show damage -- I need to know a little more. 

1. Was the "damage" actually affecting the dog's breathing, swallowing, or quality of life?

2. Was the "damage" a build up of muscle on the neck due to straining against the chain?

3. How were these dog treated with the choke chain? Was it proper use, or serious misuse/abuse.

4. Who funded the study? Makers of prong collars? PETA? Animal Rights Activists? 

GSDs are a popular breed. Comparing the number of times GSDs bite with the number of times Great Danes bite to determine whether or not one or the other would be allowed in an apartment complex is simply not fair unless you weigh the number of bites against the number of GSDs and compare that to the number of bites per the number of GDs. The same holds true for choke chains. 

This is a common, collar. Lots and lots of people use and misuse them. Maybe the fierce look of the prong collar encourages people to be more reasonable with them. Maybe the fact that they cost a lot more makes people less likely to buy and use them. But they should be compared with the number in use.


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## selzer

I want to mention again that I prefer martingales for puppies, and will ONLY use a choke on a puppy that is already trained to walk nicely with a martingale or flat collar so that they do not choke themselves. 

I do not do this because I am afraid of injuring the puppy, but that I like puppies to have freedom from pain associated with anything to do with training. 

I like chokes and martingales to keep dogs from slipping collars, not for corrective properties.


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## IliamnasQuest

> Originally Posted By: selzer
> No, really, I wonder if your choke chain had been tried on in the store by a dog with a staph infection.


Nope. This was a choke chain that I'd had for some time, it had been used on my dogs before. 



> Quote:I suppose staph infections could just go away, but I have found that they often cause a dog to lose hair. I have NEVER had a dog lose hair around the neck. I have never seen my dogs get a rash around their neck.


The staph infection was a by-product of the injury caused by the choke chain. Staphs often start because of a soft tissue injury, and in this case it was due to the choke chain. There was no doubt - the staph broke out in a thin line around my dog's neck right where the choke chain was. The injury had to be there first, however, and the line of staph graphically illustrated where the injury had occurred.



> Quote:I am also not going to buy it because I heard one person say they had an infection due to one proper leash pop on a properly fitted choke chain.
> 
> I would be more inclined to believe that the dog is sensitive to the metal used to make the choker.


No, as I said - this is a collar that had been used many times before. I'm not surprised you're going to such lengths to excuse the use of the choke chain, since it seems to be a staple of your training. But the reality is that I've seen NUMEROUS soft tissue injuries, as well as trachea injuries, over the years. Since there are so many other collars available, it makes no sense to me to use one with such potential for injury (even if you've never noticed on your dogs). As I said, most people don't notice because they're not really going to look through the dog's hair to see if there's bruising later on, and on a dark-skinned dog you probably wouldn't see it anyway. But give a good corrective pop on the collar with it fitted around your neck, and I guarantee there would be bruising. We used to give demos with choke chains, flat collars and prong collars fitted onto our arms, and the most injury ALWAYS came from the choke collar (with the same level correction used with all three). 

Personally I'm not willing to do injury to my dog's neck. And most people who use the choke chain are using it quite harshly (probably more harshly than you are). It doesn't make sense to me to recommend a collar with such potential for mis-use to people you don't know, who may end up really hurting their dogs.

Liesje, I can understand using the chain on the dead ring. I've never seen anyone use a fur saver in conformation, though - most of the time the chains are very thin. The choke chain originally given to me for my first conformation chow was a thin "S" chain, gold, very pretty but OH so harsh! I switched to the thin martingale-style show leads and had no problem controlling my dogs with those - and they still looked "stylish". I think many of the conformation people use the choking chains because they don't have good control and that was (luckily) never my problem.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## selzer

Yes, the thinner the links, the harsher the chain. Using a small prong on a puppy is not easier on them than a normal sized one, it is more harsh. 

Quote: "I'm not surprised you're going to such lengths to excuse the use of the choke chain, since it seems to be a staple of your training."

Melanie, this bothers me. I do not train with e-collars, prong collars, head collars, and generally do not use choke chains for training. The "staple" in my program is a martingale, and I use flat collars on puppies as well. When I have mislaid the martingale, I will use a choke chain. 

I do not give leash-pops, though that is the correct method of using these. I only use a choke on a dog that knows how to walk on a lead and does not try to choke itself. My only reason for using a slip collar is so that the dog does not slip its collar. I do not use collars and leads to beat my dogs with.


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## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: selzerUsing a small prong on a puppy is not easier on them than a normal sized one, it is more harsh.


I don't agree with this at all. In fact I believe it is more painful and less effective to use a larger prong than necessary. If I used a larger prong on Nikon, he would only have 3-4 links. That puts all the pressure on just 3-4 links. The TD handed me one and I said no way, it's too big for him. When I use the smaller one, I think he has 8-10 links. I'm pretty sure it's 10 because I personally want at least 8 and I know I bought extra links. So that puts the pressure over 2-3 times as many points on the neck. NO prong should be sharp, regardless of size.

If you do not train with prong collars, how can you even make such statements about them?


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## amjrchamberlain

I agree with Liesje that the smallest prongs should be used (adding links) to distribute the pressure of the collar correctly around the neck. I have used the smallest prong collars on dogs as large as Rottweilers and Great Danes. There is just no need (to my mind) for the larger prongs. I have never heard of anyone drawing blood with a prong. And if they did, I would want to know if the prong was faulty (sharp) or if the handler was misusing the training tool. 

Having used the collar types mentioned here, I think that the martingale is the best for a young pup. Or for any dog being trained by an inexperienced trainer. 

Experienced trainers should be able to use the choke (and prong) correctly. But we have to keep in mind that the average pet owner is not going to have the correct knowledge to use the choke. The prong distributes the pressure along the neck better (imo), so can be used by new or upcoming trainers (if properly demo'd by an experienced trainer). 

That said, someone mentioned that damage can be done by most any collar - and they are spot on. Straining at any collar can cause damage to the neck tissues and trachea. I happen to think that some collars are more likely to cause the damage (due to improper use).

How does that saying go? "Ask 10 trainers what the best method for xxyz is and you will get 10 different answers"?







We all have our methods.


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## onyx'girl

I use the larger prong on my long coat, as she gets tangled in the smaller one. I use to use the small one, but switched. 
All the pups that I have seen photographed from Karlos litter, and ones in my SchH club are wearing harnesses. I think these are a good choice for up to 4-5 months age. I bought a harness for Karlo from the beginning and he has never worn a flat collar. I did get an adjustable no-slip when I first got him, it was too big and the loop hung dangerously, so never used it. He was/is fine with a harness.


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## middleofnowhere

Small prongs would be more painful than large prongs - think of how much more sharp a small object feels jabbing into you vs a large one.


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## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: middleofnowhereSmall prongs would be more painful than large prongs - think of how much more sharp a small object feels jabbing into you vs a large one.


But that's the thing, a prong should never be sharp. I use prong collars but never a sharpened one, or even the cheaper ones that aren't rounded on the rips.

If I put a large sized prong (the size I most commonly see on a GSD) on my GSD he would have 4 links which is 8 points. When I use my medium size prong he has 10 links which is 20 points. Less pressure on each point because there are over double the amount of pressure points on the smaller collar.


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## onyx'girl

This is off topic now from the title.

In Kacie's case, her coat cushions the prong, and it is a herm springer. I don't have to pop the collar, and I only use it for security, in case there is an issue with a dog running up on us(happens too frequently) she will react. 
On a flat, I don't have as much control in such a situation.
I only use the prong if I am walking both adult dogs.


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## onyx'girl

In Kacie's case, her coat cushions the prong, and it is a herm springer. I don't have to pop the collar, and I only use it for security, in case there is an issue with a dog running up on us(happens too frequently) she will react. 
On a flat, I don't have as much control in such a situation.
I only use the prong if I am walking both adult dogs.


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## selzer

Using a small bit on a horse gives you more control, because it is harder on the horse's mouth. 

Using a small choker on a dog is harder than a large choker because the links are tightening over a smaller area. It is a sharper correction. 

Simple physics would suggest that if you apply the same correction over a smaller surface area, the pressure will be greater and the correction more harsh. 

Using a smaller prong on a dog is similar in theory anyway. You make a good point about there being more points, and thus the correction is distributed over more points. However it is distributed over a smaller section of skin than the larger prong. 

Frankly, I do not like the thought of how hard we must correct our dogs to get them to behave. Not one of my dogs need this. No way do I spend more time training and working with my dogs, I have too many of them to spend as much time with each than most people do. I do not understand the need of such a device for an intelligent and very trainable dog. 

I was looking for a picture of Babs earning her rally title. I found it. Someone gave it to me (as I am in the photo). So I do not have it digital unless I scan it. Anyway, she has a martingale on, and her lead happens to be looped up around her ear (that's loose) and she is in perfect heal position. She was under two at the time, and has never experienced a prong collar. 

I hear so much praise for prong collars on this site. I wish we could get away from them all together. I am glad the AKC will not allow them because when people see 75% or more GSDs on prong collars, they get the wrong idea about our breed.


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## Liesje

Well I agree with you there, I don't see any need for a prong collar when training the rally skills, or on a puppy. IMO the best think for a puppy is a harness. Second best a martingale.

But again, it's not fair to assume what tools are appropriate for other types of training if you've never done them. Prongs are used for more than correction, often they are used on fairly advanced adults to nag/frustrate the dog which builds the drive. I support their use as a training tool, not as a crutch that I need in order to walk my dog around the block for the rest of his life.

I've never used an e-collar and don't see the need for one in *my* training, but I've never trained a bird dog where I believe they are fairly common so I cannot say that e-collars are bad and unnecesary, how would I know?


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## Cassidy's Mom

> Originally Posted By: Liesje*I've never used an e-collar and don't see the need for one in *my* training*, but I've never trained a bird dog where I believe they are fairly common so I cannot say that e-collars are bad and unnecesary, how would I know?


Oh, oh, now you've done it - used the words "e-collar" and "need" in the same sentence!







I'm sure we'll all be set straight any time now.


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## selzer

So the wonderfully humane, better than a choke chain is used to nag, frustrate, (aggitate) advanced dogs to build drive? Hmmmm. That is really interesting. 

If I had a dog with a neck, throat, spine injury, then I might consider a harness. I have one, I was teaching them to track. On the harness they can pull, pull, pull and are NEVER given any type of negative reinforcment for that, nor told to heal. But that is only what I do with the harness.


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## Liesje

Not always and obviously NOT on a puppy, but yes, sometimes it's used for nagging the dog, not always just hard correction pops, and just because you see a prong on a dog doesn't mean that person can't heel their dog through a crowded street. I also know some people who use a vibrate or low stim on an e-collar as their marker. I use a Fursaver and not a harness for tracking, but I use a harness for ring training. Lots of tools, lots of uses.


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## selzer

I think training a dog for a specific thing, many types of equipment could be used properly and effectively. 

In training classes and when practicing, pulling out the prong/harness/e-collar and putting it on the dog seems reasonable.
After a few minutes, it is removed. 

I do not like the idea of such tools being used as "power steering." I see a lot of dogs on prong collars, labs, GSDs, dobermans, dachsunds, JRTs. Anyone trying to increase the drive on a JRT??? I see them and their owners have NO INTENTION of EVER doing without the prong. 

With e-collars, I often see them on dogs, and their owners say, yeah, the battery is not even in there. 

The dog is responding to the collar, not the handler. And without it, the dog knows he can get away with more. This indicates pain response for behavior problems.


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## selzer

If it is used to nag, aggitate dogs, then it can EASILY be misused by inexperienced handlers. 

A handler that doesn't want to "hurt" her dog and makes several, ineffective corrections, would be "nagging" and possibly increasing frustration and drives. 

Does that sound like a recipe for disaster to anyone else?


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## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: selzerIf it is used to nag, aggitate dogs, then it can EASILY be misused by inexperienced handlers.
> 
> A handler that doesn't want to "hurt" her dog and makes several, ineffective corrections, would be "nagging" and possibly increasing frustration and drives.
> 
> Does that sound like a recipe for disaster to anyone else?


No, unless the inexperienced handler nagging their dog just happens to have a sleeve-wearing helper waving a stick or whiping a whip as the dog walks by....

The prong alone doesn't exactly aggitate dogs. This is becoming a totally different topic. I only mentioned it as an example of how someone would use a prong *in training* on a dog that can already blow through a rally excellent course and heel off lead through a crowd without needing a prong as a crutch. Just because a prong is on a dog does not mean the handler needs it as a control mechanism and can't train a dog basic obedience without it.


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## sitstay

> Originally Posted By: selzerUsing a small bit on a horse gives you more control, because it is harder on the horse's mouth.


Not necessarily true. I use a french link snaffle on my gelding, and he has a smaller mouth. For his comfort, I use a smaller bit. The smaller diameter makes the bit more comfortable for this horse to pack in his mouth.
Leverage devices, such as the shanks, are much more severe. The longer the shank, the more severe the action.
Have you ever seen a mechanical hackamore? There is nothing in the mouth at all, and yet the long shanks make this a very, very severe piece of equipment.
As with any piece of equipment, people who don't know what they are doing can turn the most "humane" collar into a torture device. Looks are deceiving! I think it has more to do with the skill of the person holding the other end of the leash that really matters. 
Sheilah


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## big_dog7777

OK, I'll throw in my .02 here. Sue, you are correct that an inexperienced handler can amp up a dog with ineffective prong corrections. Dogs do not always associate the prong correction with the handler. When introduced properly, yes they do. But in a common pet situation, if the only time they get corrected is when they lunge at strange men... then the prong stimulation can easily be from the men in the dogs eyes. Sport and PPD trainers sometimes use this technique. Lies and I may not be the norm, but our dogs were raised to train in SchH. All of the training involved in loose leash walking on a flat collar makes a dog WAY too sensitive to his handler for any type of protection work. So, we need a different method to control our dogs.

I really do not like choke collars at all. I don't know how to give an effective correction with one, because personally I don't think it can be done. Stubborn dogs fight through them resulting in them almost passing out or injury. I HATE them on puppies, but then again I don't like a prong on a pup under 10 months either. Martingales are a great idea, but were not even close to effective on my pup. I really like the front clip harness for puppies.

Many people have high drive 85 pound dogs, that do not weigh much less than they do. These dogs need exercise, and also need to be under control and safe. If a prong helps an owner achieve these things than so be it. I still walk my two on prongs. Granted, it's a loose leash but a prong nonetheless. It's there in case I need it, and as long as I don't jam on them it's no different than a flat collar.


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## amjrchamberlain

> Originally Posted By: ZeusGSD
> If a prong helps an owner achieve these things than so be it.


Agreed.


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## doggiedad

starting at 9 weeks i used a flat collar. i think my dog was 4 months old or so before i bought a choke collar.
i never used the collar as a correction, i never needed to. my dog never has a collar on when at home and that includes being in the yard.


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## Jason L

> Originally Posted By: ZeusGSDLies and I may not be the norm, but our dogs were raised to train in SchH. All of the training involved in loose leash walking on a flat collar makes a dog WAY too sensitive to his handler for any type of protection work. So, we need a different method to control our dogs.


I don't follow here. Can you explain?


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## sitstay

> Originally Posted By: doggiedad i think my dog was 4 months old or so before i bought a choke collar.
> i never used the collar as a correction, i never needed to.


I am unclear what other uses a choke collar would have? If you aren't using it to make corrections, why have it on at all? If it is being used to keep a dog from slipping out of the collar, then it is being used to make a correction.
Why not stick to a flat collar?
Sheilah


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## big_dog7777

> Originally Posted By: Jason LinI don't follow here. Can you explain?


Foundation work for protection training is done on a long line, with the dog in essense working "by itself" in front of you. The dog has to pull, bark like crazy when the helper makes preylike movements and go in for a bite when let go. In order to teach a dog loose leash walking near you or heaven forbid right next to you it takes many many repetitions of treating to reward not pulling and staying next to you while either standing still or reversing course when the dog does pull out in front. You are conditioning the dog to always look to you and adjust when they hit the end of the leash. Do that with a SchH prospect and every time they hit the end of the leash in protection they look at you. Every time you approach from behind to grab the leash they look at you. They should be concentrating on the helper at that point. 

Obviously not everyone has this problem, but anyone that trains their dog in drive (not just SchH anymore, but agility and competitive OB - anything that trains with a tug or ball) will have it somewhat. When you cultivate and build the true natural instincts of our GSD's (if they are bred according to the true standards of what a GSD should be) it's not a bad idea to have a "reserve" of power for handling. Our breed was not meant to mope along side us without any energy like a docile newfoundland. Just my opinion.


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## Jason L

Thanks, John, that makes a lot of sense and I'll keep that in mind when I get a Malinois pup later this year!









In fact I have seen some dogs in schutzhund practice do exactly what you said - i.e. constantly looking back and checking in with the handler instead of going forward.


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## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: Jason Lin
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: ZeusGSDLies and I may not be the norm, but our dogs were raised to train in SchH. All of the training involved in loose leash walking on a flat collar makes a dog WAY too sensitive to his handler for any type of protection work. So, we need a different method to control our dogs.
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> 
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> I don't follow here. Can you explain?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure if John and I are on the same page, but what I meant by using a prong in SchH training not *just* to control and correct the dog but to nag is that I've heard of and seen people use it this way to increase the frustration and drive in the dog. For example the dog is doing a hold and bark and the handler gives the line on the prong a few quick taps. Not a correction, not hard enough to stop what the dog is doing or physically jerking him back, just some nagging taps to keep up the intensity. I have never done this, my dog is only 10 months and just wears a harness for protection, but I've seen it done, generally with adults that are already titled to some level.

But, also I think what maybe John is saying that with a SchH dog we aren't spending the majority of our time focusing on leash manners and that sort of thing, so when I need to take my three dogs somewhere together, sure I put Nikon on a prong so I have control over him. For him, going from point A to point B is not a training/proofing exercise like it is for my other two dogs who are trained to walk well through distraction. Because SchH is the priority, I focus on those behaviors first, such as imprinting tracking, building prey drive, etc. I'm not spending a lot of time on loose leash walking at this point (though I should say he passed all but the 3 minute leave exercises of the CGC at 9 months so when I ask him to focus, he will...but the difference between him and my other dogs is when/why I ask for that focus).


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## Jason L

Lies,

So the use of prong that you described is similar to helper "loading" the dog up with whips and sticks?


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## dOg

More like setting a rhythm in the hold & bark.


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## selzer

The only reason I ever use a choke is so the dog will not slip a flat collar. 

I had a puppy slip a flat collar in a crouded parking lot, she was running around, could have been hit or killed, and her collar and tags were on the end of the leash in my hand. Never again. 

With the collar not attached to the lead, it will still be on the dog in the case of an equipment malfuntion. Having a handle to catch and hold an excited or nervous dog with is a benefit to this. 

I put the collar on the dog, and put the lead on a martingale or a choke chain. The choker is generally used after I have taught my dogs to walk on a lead without pulling. The moment they feel tension of any kind in the lead, they turn and wait. But because of my carpul tunnel (I drop things, including leashes), I also teach them to come back to me if the lead goes completely slack. 

I train them to come back. But dogs that are injured, scared, excited may not do what you train them to do 100%. So having the handle (collar) to catch and hold is really a big deal.


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## selzer

Yes, my dogs stop when they feel they reach the end of the lead and will look back. I am not training PP dogs. It is something to remember. 

It has been interesting to hear what goes into this type of training and how traditional training might affect it. I do not want this. 

A friend of my and a protection trained dog, trained in Germany before she bought him. He walked on a normal collar, finished his CGC -- I was there. And I was there when she titled him in rally. Her score was not as high because of too many tight leads, but he did earn his title. Do they protection train dogs with prong collars in Germany? My friend says that he will attack and release on command only. I thought he was pretty cool. But, he did have leash manners. And as my friend is in her seventies, she had to be able to manage him.


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## big_dog7777

> Originally Posted By: Jason LinLies,
> 
> So the use of prong that you described is similar to helper "loading" the dog up with whips and sticks?


A prong is used for many things. Some use it to assist in "drive switching" by having two long lines on a dog. Holding a dog by the prong when the helper shows a defensive picture and the agitation harness/collar when he shows a prey picture on the way to a formal bark and hold. You can use it to "load" a dog during certain obedience exercises resulting in faster/crisper performance. The big difference between the whip and stick is it is associated with a look as opposed to movement from the helper. In that context the dog does not associate the prong with the handler at all.


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## big_dog7777

They do use prongs in Germany, as well as e-collars. Once the foundation training is done, you can teach a dog loose lead walking just like any other dog. Also, with a dog that will only train as a PPD and not for sport handler sensitivity is not as much of an issue. Depending on who is training the dog the foundation work could all be in defense/aggression as opposed to prey and therefore completely different.


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## Amaruq

E-collars are illegal in Germany. Not saying some do not still use them but they are illegal there.


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## Jason L

> Originally Posted By: ZeusGSDYou can use it to "load" a dog during certain obedience exercises resulting in faster/crisper performance.


Someone in my club told me he used to give three quick pops to the dog before obedience routine to let him it's time to work. And then they went to test their BH and because he couldn't use the prong on the dog the dog had no idea what he was supposed to do in the beginning. He ended up doing better with off leash heeling then on leash heeling


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## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: selzer
> 
> It has been interesting to hear what goes into this type of training and how traditional training might affect it. I do not want this.
> 
> A friend of my and a protection trained dog, trained in Germany before she bought him. He walked on a normal collar, finished his CGC -- I was there. And I was there when she titled him in rally. Her score was not as high because of too many tight leads, but he did earn his title. Do they protection train dogs with prong collars in Germany? My friend says that he will attack and release on command only. I thought he was pretty cool. But, he did have leash manners. And as my friend is in her seventies, she had to be able to manage him.


Well without knowing the dog, the trainer, or any of the methods and tools used I'm not sure what point the example is trying to make? Any halfway decent PPD or SchH dog should be able to fly through a CGC and rally excellent. In my experience, tight leads are often a handler problem, not a training or dog problem (all of the deductions I've seen were because the handler was nervous, pulling the dog tighter than needed, if they had been off lead there would have likely been no deductions). Again without seeing the dog work it's impossible to say, but many dogs trained in Germany are trained very quickly to achieve their scores and titles quickly and don't necessarily have good foundation work or training that the dog retains. I've seen SchH 1 or 2 dogs that don't respond to "platz" or have to be coaxed towards a sleeve.

There are a gazillion ways to train in SchH and PPD, it's not as simple as work/sport vs. traditional or whatever.


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## big_dog7777

Jason,

Not much thought was put into that, was there?! In OB, what I am referring to is a few pops during heeling right before say an about face and a bite on a ball immediately after. So you get pop, pop, pop about turn and immediate ball reward. Over and over, it speeds up the about turn and the dog "unloads" on the ball. I had something similar happen on the BH, but with the long down. I never practiced an off lead start to the long down, only on lead. So when I was picked to do my routine first, the long down was a different "picture" to start with Diesel. He ended up breaking the long down, but we still passed because his routine was so crisp and animated. Well, except for his finish - technically I did not teach him a finish yet.


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## big_dog7777

> Originally Posted By: AmaruqE-collars are illegal in Germany. Not saying some do not still use them but they are illegal there.


Which is why they use covers for them.


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## Chicagocanine

I don't like choke collars for adult dogs OR puppies. Personally I just don't feel collar corrections are necessary in training.


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