# Buying from a first time breeder?



## awestm11 (Dec 13, 2018)

My wife and I have been actively looking for a new puppy, and she found a litter she really likes through a local facebook group. 
They are AKC registered black females for $800, which is what she wants and seemed like a fair price to me. 
I messaged the person, who is relaying the information for her in-laws and I am hesitant after getting some more info:
The parents are both AKC registered but do not have OFA hip/elbow certs or vision certs, and are not from working/show/ champion lines. (But they do claim the lines are healthy) The in-laws are not registered breeders, nor have they ever bred their dogs before. The breeding was accidental; the male got into the females pen at an inoppurtune time. The puppies will not be sold with any kind of health garuantee or puppy contract, but they will have all of their shots, etc, and have a pedigree. 

At $800 I expected something more than what essentially seems like a craigslist cash deal for some backyard puppies, or was I expecting too much at that price? 

Is there more that I should be asking for to ensure the health of the puppies or should I assume the risk and go see them?

The dog will primarily be a companion, and my wife may do some agility or obedience with her, but am I correct in assuming the puppy wouldn’t be suitable to be bred in the future? 


Thanks to all who have advice. Sorry if I am asking a question that has already been answered.


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

It's always a gamble to get a puppy, even more so to get a back yard bred puppy from an accidental litter. At the minimum, I would want the parents to have had their hips and elbows certified through OFA or (some other official certification). Have you met the parents? You can get great dogs from less than ideal places, but since you're asking for advice, I'd recommend going to a reputable breeder. You can probably find a working line or American showline GSD from a responsible/professional breeder for around $1200-1800. West German showline (WGSL) will probably run a little more, around 2-3k. If you share your general location, someone might be able to share some recommendations.

Good luck in your puppy search. I hope you find the perfect dog for you. 

https://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

How many puppies in the litter? While $800 is not a huge price, it is pretty much all profit as there have been little in expenses - food and the initial vet visit and, of course, time to raise the litter.

It is a crap shoot. A lottery ticket. You may get a perfectly nice pet puppy. You may get a genetic nightmare. There is absolutely no way to tell.

Look through all the threads with people needing help with behavior and health. Most - NOT ALL - but most pups are from litters with zero to marginal credentials on parents and breeders.


Good luck!


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

My take?

500.00 hundred less, and it's an adoption fee from a rescue where a foster can give you a good idea of what you are getting (young dogs are easy to find but not pups). Still not health tested/guaranteed but it is 500.00 less...

500.00 more, and you can get a puppy from a breeder who health tests and can do their best to match you with a puppy that suits your desires in drive/lifestyle. 

Why pay extra for the same unknowns you assume when getting a rescue? One of the more solid dogs I've ever had was a boxer/hound mix who cost a 250.00 adoption fee at 6 months old. Another pb GSD I adopted at 3 months old turned out to have nerve behavior and health issues. He cost me THOUSANDS in medical tests and training and I had to put him down at 4. That is why you pay more for a reputable breeder..it is still no guarantee at all of course, but that 1200 and up price tag gets you a much better chance, and a breeder that will care how things are going and also take the dog back if need be. 

In any event enjoy adding a new pup to the mix


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

awestm11 said:


> My wife and I have been actively looking for a new puppy, and she found a litter she really likes through a local facebook group.
> They are AKC registered black females for $800, which is what she wants and seemed like a fair price to me.
> The dog will primarily be a companion, and my wife may do some agility or obedience with her, but am I correct in assuming the puppy wouldn’t be suitable to be bred in the future?


 Why would you buy a dog with no pedigree to speak of. Back yard bred. And hope to become a backyard breeder yourself some day.
I don't know your situation, but if you wish to someday be a breeder. You should be prepared to go a lot more in than $800.00. 
That isn't even a years worth of training expenses. You should find a breeder and mentor if that is your desire. But not some hack who breeds any dog with a title. Get with someone who breeds dogs because they should be bred to better the breed. Not just because they can.


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## awestm11 (Dec 13, 2018)

cdwoodcox said:


> Why would you buy a dog with no pedigree to speak of. Back yard bred. And hope to become a backyard breeder yourself some day.


I don’t have any intention of becoming a breeder. I was speaking more to the fact that with the unknowns it may as well be an unregistered dog. I’m just trying to get a healthy dog.
The puppies supposedly do come with a pedigree, but the parents have not been health tested. Is that something I could ask for?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

awestm11 said:


> I don’t have any intention of becoming a breeder. I was speaking more to the fact that with the unknowns it may as well be an unregistered dog. I’m just trying to get a healthy dog.
> The puppies supposedly do come with a pedigree, but the parents have not been health tested. Is that something I could ask for?



I wondered why the comments about you breeding were made as well.... ????? 

All registered dogs have pedigrees - whether they are full of "Prince of my street" and "Snow Bear Cuddles" type pet names or well known kennels like Kathargo, Fiemerick, Arminus and Lupo Nero - they have pedigrees......those of us who study such things can look at them and understand the type of background the dogs actually have....

It will cost them around $1000 to 1500 - give or take depending on location to health test parents....hips, elbows, DM are the basics. These tests will take several months before any results are known. Pups too young to be certified for hips and elbows - DM is a swab and is $65 or so....

Anytime a seller says that the vet said they are healthy only means they were OK when the vet examined them...not that there is any clearance for breeding and genetic disposition to anything.

Lee


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## awestm11 (Dec 13, 2018)

wolfstraum said:


> How many puppies in the litter? While $800 is not a huge price, it is pretty much all profit as there have been little in expenses - food and the initial vet visit and, of course, time


2 females, 3 males, all black. 
$800 for females, $700 for males.
So, what, $3000 profit for a backyard mistake? I don’t suppose they will be very receptive to me conveying that to them though haha.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

I’d pass. That’s a high price to pay for no testing of health or temperament, or knowledge of if the dogs bred were a good compliment for one another. I beleive there are things more important than coat color, but understand having a preference. Black is a color that pops up frequently in litters from reputable breeders. I’d suggest getting out to your local kennel club, a German Shepherd Club if you happen to have one nearby and some IPO clubs if you can and see some dogs in person. Figure out what you like and pursue breeders from there. Dog people are usually very willing to talk about their dogs, and can maybe point you to a breeder that might be a good fit for you. Good luck with your search!


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Another vote for don't do it! A dog from a great breeder can make all the difference in the world. There are some risks that are just SO unnecessary!

There are so many good breeders there is just no reason to get a puppy from a backyard breeder.

If you don't want to give money to an actual breeder then please go to a shelter or breed rescue because most of those dogs are BYB anyway and you'll have a similar dog to what you would have had but without giving cash to irresponsible people. Give the money to the rescue who will be dealing with those dogs down the line


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I charged a $400 adoption fee. All pups left at 12 weeks with two sets of shots, full health check including blood work and urine/stool checks, dewormed, crate trained, house trained, started on leash. They could be brought back once a week for basic obedience work and I always take my dogs back should things change. Not a popular choice but not one I will apologize for, they also left spayed/neutered. I made not one red cent, operated at a deficit for all the years I did it. Relied heavily on private funding, awesome vets and generous donations of food and supplies.
Most of my dogs were recycled but I raised my fair share of litters when moms were rescued or dumped pregnant.
Many never needed vet care beyond routine check ups, most fell somewhere mid point and were overall healthy with manageable health issues, a few broke the bank on vet care.
Temperament wise again most were great, a few had some problems and a handful I opted to euthanize for severe behavioral issues. 
All would have been called BYB dogs or puppy farm products.

If you feel a need to gamble then go for it, but if you do then accept that you have purchased an unknown and don't go looking for answers you will never get or chasing seeds that will never bear fruit. 
Deal with the dog you get and remember that the responsibility is yours. You own it. Beginning to end.
Every dog deserves to be in a home with people who believe it's the best dog ever, and nothing is more heartbreaking then seeing a dog living with people who end up thinking it's inferior when they put no more effort into the search for it then entering a pin at an ATM.
I'm not saying this is you but if your goal is somewhat more lofty then do your homework and save your pennies, because this pup is likely destined to achieve not much more then a fabulous pet. 


On the other hand Sabi was a BYB dog, and she wrote her own rules.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

awestm11 said:


> cdwoodcox said:
> 
> 
> > Why would you buy a dog with no pedigree to speak of. Back yard bred. And hope to become a backyard breeder yourself some day.
> ...


 I don't want to breed either. Too many risks and too much time. But, if you look back on here at one of my first 10 posts. Somewhere, I said that people that train dogs are loons. I was just gonna let my dog be a dog. 
Fast forward 3 year's and I routinely travel once a week to Indianapolis (2 hour drive). Once a week to wawaka (1 hour, 20 minute drive). And once a week to bristol (1 hour 15 minute drive). All 3 places are to train dogs. So you never know where life is gonna take you. With dogs just enjoy the ride.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

cdwoodcox said:


> ...
> 
> But, if you look back on here at one of my first 10 posts. Somewhere, I said that people that train dogs are loons. I was just gonna let my dog be a dog.


And then you drank the Koolaide :rofl:


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## Dionne2u (Nov 5, 2018)

Pass, go to a breeder that test their dogs. At that price you're only $400 away from a better breeder that test, which could mean a LARGE savings on medical issues in the future. Mistakes should be at adoption prices, price is way high.


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## atomic (Mar 28, 2016)

I paid $200 for a pup in a similar situation. Akc eligible (I wasn’t given the papers at this price), up to date on vaccines and worming. One positive point is the parents were European, so their lineage had to be titled and tested. Akc cares not except for money, to be eligible for breeding the only requirement is to have the papers themselves! It’s up to you as even the 3k dogs are still not guaranteed, but I think you could do better than 800. Gsds are very popular and there’s always a number of byb litters floating around... if that’s the route you are wanting to take.

And the breeding comment was made because OP mentioned since the pups do not come from a titled background nor a health tested one that the potential pup probably wouldn’t be good for breeding later on. At least that’s the gist I got.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

cdwoodcox said:


> Once a week to wawaka....


My husband's aunt and uncle have a dairy farm in Wawaka. He spent summers helping out on the farm from age 12 to 18.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> My husband's aunt and uncle have a dairy farm in Wawaka. He spent summers helping out on the farm from age 12 to 18.


Most of my dads family dairy farm in Wisconsin. I spent a few summers helping out and didn't mind it, but my dad wanted nothing to do with it and in part why we live in eastern Washington.

As far as traveling to train I don't go far, but I may need to travel 5-6 hrs to try for a bh.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> cdwoodcox said:
> 
> 
> > Once a week to wawaka....
> ...


 Wawaka is a small town. Chances are they know Jan then.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Jan is his aunt's name too, lol. Ask her if she knows the Keefers.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Jan is his aunt's name too, lol. Ask her if she knows the Keefers. /forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif


 I'll ask her at training tomorrow.


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## Synne (Mar 17, 2018)

Sabis mom said:


> .
> Deal with the dog you get and remember that the responsibility is yours. You own it. Beginning to end.
> Every dog deserves to be in a home with people who believe it's the best dog ever, and nothing is more heartbreaking then seeing a dog living with people who end up thinking it's inferior when they put no more effort into the search for it then entering a pin at an ATM.


Very well said <3


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## awestm11 (Dec 13, 2018)

Thank you all very much for the advice and experiences. My wife has become committed to the breed and if we are going to get a gsd, we are going to do it right. 
I personally have owned strays and rescues my entire life, and have had great dogs (and some less than great dogs). My wife grew up with her father’s champion line hunting dogs and she has a knack for training. The puppy will be her companion while I am overseas, and will be properly trained. We are in SE Michigan, and have a few very reputable breeders near us.


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## tc68 (May 31, 2006)

My 2 cents...don't do it. My first GSD was from a backyard breeder. I didn't know any better back then. While the dog was a great dog - great personality, great drive, great looking, great temperament, friendly, patient, intelligent, etc. etc. etc. - he was a health nightmare. He had EPI, allergies, reoccurring cysts, later in life slightly weak hips that led to a broken bone, and died of cancer exactly a year ago today. You may be saving a lot of money by buying the $800 dog...but you're taking a greater chance that the health issues will more than make up for that low price. I had to pay for a lifetime of expensive medication for EPI, numerous vet visits and subsequent medication.

My 2nd and current GSD...I got from a reputable breeder to avoid these health problems. Paid a lot more. So far...knock on wood...no issues. I realize that just because I bought him from a breeder doesn't mean I won't get a dog with health problems, but I think the chances are much smaller. 

I know you said you won't do it but I want to agree with the others...if you do get this $800 dog, don't breed it. Don't put these "unknown" genes into the gene pool. Leave the breeding to the so called "experts."

Anyway, I know you've already made up your mind. Good luck and post pics when you get a pup.


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## MOJO9913 (Nov 13, 2017)

Ive had horrible luck with people selling GSDs from "accidental breedings". The health and temperament were very costly to me and my dogs. I didn't pay $800 though. I find it slightly odd that someone who isn't a breeder and the breeding was an "accident" is selling the dogs for such a price. I would think they would want to get rid of the puppies but not "overcharge" for them, as shots and worming don't cost that much per pup.


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## awestm11 (Dec 13, 2018)

Well, we found the newest addition to the family! We found a breeder who is new to Michigan, but had some very healthy and well bred WL Czech GSDs. I’ll post more about the puppy in the welcome thread. 
Thanks again to everyone who contributed on this topic!


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## awestm11 (Dec 13, 2018)

https://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/#/topics/752199


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