# E Collar Fail



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

So frustrated right now. First time this has ever happened to me. I can't seem to get contact on my boy. I just tried for 30 (+)? Minutes to find the level he can percieve and nada. Started with an old 280ncp that I changed to a bungee collar and 1/2 inch contacts just for him because he has the thickest and most dense coat of any gsd I have had.

So I scrubbed it into his hair 3 or 4 different times at different places on his neck, cranked it so tight it was literally impairing his breathing...and NADA, not even an ear flick up to about 20. I didn't go any higher than that because if I have never had a dog not feel SOMETHING below that.

Then I tried changing out for the regular non bungee strap, all same things again, still nothing. Then I slapped my old 1900 on him and got nothing there either.

I tested the collars on myself, they are working.

I tried testing outside in a bare yard with nothing for distraction. I tried testing in the house. Nothing.

Best as I can tell I do not have contact with his neck. I have heard of people shaving dogs for this on some website or another but no one I have ever talked to in the real world has had to do that.

Or try 1" points?

Very frustrated.


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

You probably had contact the dog just didn't care.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Really? How often do you see a dog go over 20 with no indication? You think I should have gone higher or what?

The only time it has ever happened to me was the very first dog I ever did and I got all the way to 25 and then he yelped and cowered. I have never had that happen since. With that dog I started over with a better contact and got him going around 15 I think. But that was a 1900....do the lower #s feel different on the higher powered vs lower powered collars?


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

He really does have a very dense undercoat btw...almost husky like.

Maybe I will go try again in the basement.


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I use 3/4" contacts on dogs with very long coats.

You can also try the SCG on the dogtra.

I have had dogs with working levels as high as 30 until they learned the game. then it usually backs way off.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Ok sorry I guess I said that wrong...1/2 inch is what comes standard right? I have the 3/4 inch contacts on the 280. I just tried again in the basement training room. Went up to 22 this time, still nothing, not even the slightest inkling, no ear twitch, no scratch, no look down, nothing. He fell asleep while I was doing it the 2nd time


----------



## RockyK9 (Dec 9, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Ok sorry I guess I said that wrong...1/2 inch is what comes standard right? I have the 3/4 inch contacts on the 280. I just tried again in the basement training room. Went up to 22 this time, still nothing, not even the slightest inkling, no ear twitch, no scratch, no look down, nothing. He fell asleep while I was doing it the 2nd time


 Hi,

I also have tried different contacts after some initial challenges and spoke to Lou Castle about this directly. To be safe I bought the 3/4 and they got inconsistent contact . Then I purchased the 1 " and that did the trick . Thats what I currently use . I would try the 1" contacts and that will do it I'm certain.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

RockyK9 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I also have tried different contacts after some initial challenges and spoke to Lou Castle about this directly. To be safe I bought the 3/4 and they got inconsistent contact . Then I purchased the 1 " and that did the trick . Thats what I currently use . I would try the 1" contacts and that will do it I'm certain.


Thanks Rocky. I will try it. It is only 10 bucks.

He is not a long coated dog. It is just incredibly dense. The receiver is snug against him and I cant get my finger uder the contact points I just think they are lost in that undercoat and not touching his skin? Idk.

David Winners I have never used the contact you mentioned, surely I would have to shave him for that?


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

I'd have to agree with Baillif. Our WL male has as dense of a coat as our malamute had and we don't have problems getting contact with the 3/4" contacts, even with the standard collar the dogtra 2300 comes with.


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Little trick I heard from the duck retrieving people. Wet necks make best contact.

My own working level isn't till about 25 on that collar. It's possible you just haven't reached the threshold for him feeling it. I wouldn't pussyfoot around with it. Go up by 3 till you see a response. Be aware he can sensitize and that working level will become a moving target.


----------



## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

How tight is it between the actual collar and him. I have to keep Rosko's up high and tight. Barely able to fit a finger between him and the collar. I also work the contacts into his fur to make sure I have contact. 1/2 inch wouldn't work on him but 3/4 did fine. I would hold off and order the 1'' and try that. My luck I would be up to 35 and they would then make contact and I would spend a week with the longer contacts desensitizing the dog.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Ok that is an interesting idea.(wetting him) I had thought that they seemed to feel it more on super humid days sometimes too.

Depending on where I put the collar on myself I can't feel under 20 either. I can't feel under 25 or so on my palm and inside of my arm it is quite variable although I don't really know what the difference is.

Here are some other questions I had in my mind that never mattered because we didn't do any training:

If I take him anywhere alone he expects we will train and he is ON me, staring at me, waiting for me to start something. I am not wild about stimming him while he is staring at me. But it is hard to get him not to look at me. This is why is was trying to do it outside. Hopefully I am not going to mess up how hard I worked on focus...I guess just the one test shouldn't matter, it isn't like I am going to keep stimming him for looking at me.

#2 the problem is deer, and the only thing I need the e collar for on him at this time. His recall is excellent all of the time unless he sees deer. I have never done e collar recalls on a dog with recall as good as his. I was torn as to whether I should even do any reps of stimming and calling or just wait for a chance to nail him for going after a deer. I have never done only that before. Any side effects for just trying to nail him for going after deer if I had not done any groundwork prior?

Any thoughts?


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

PS if I nailed him for trying to chase deer it would be on a longline so he could not run through it if I picked the wrong number....

When I ever get this contact issue fixed, I will also try and see if I can find a hay field with turkeys. That might make for fuzzy recall where I could do some slightly less stimulating work prior to deer


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Deer??? Well ... I'm certainly not an E-Collar "Expert" but it "strikes me that" you are using the wrong "protocol" for a "Crittering" situation???


You don't need to "hunt" for "working level" with an "E Collar" to stop that crap. I'd crank the sucker, up up as high as it would go and if the dogs go for the "Critter" I'd hold the button for 3 secs ..." problem solved," I would imagine???

To be fair ... I taught my "Boxer" to chase "Rabbits to the "North" Mountains and not "South" Hwy, off leash in the "Desert" with a verbal marker .... "NO" but that's me and her. 

Turkey's aren't "Deer" I think your mixing up what you want to do the dog to "understand" ... "this" you will not do!" Just my two cents.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

What brand collar do you have? You need to have 3/4" contacts. I think 1/2" comes with as standard. If it's a Sport Dog, you will need to dremel the plastic around the contacts down so more metal shows.

Have you tried the collar on your hand to make sure it's working? I check my Tritronics on my hand before I put it on every time.

Personally, I would teach him what that stim means before nailing him for chasing deer. I can see a dog out in a field at full speed suddenly running the wrong direction because he thinks something out there is hurting him.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Chip yes and no....

I used Lou Castle's "crittering" protocol to stop my old gsd from hunting my livestock. With him a d other dogs I lost their attention completely in unfenced areas....the scent of game long gone was enough, and zero recall until I taught it with low level stim layered over recall with long line.

YEARS ago when my old girl who was young then, fell in love with the puppy in an invisible fence across the street ahe would willfully blow me off to run play with her friend. I taught her about stim using an 8 layered onto longline recalls and was able to use somewhere between 10-12 to stop her crossing the road. I used it in a similar fashion to keep her out of water that might have gators in it.

If we sprang game on the trail I could use slightly higher numbers to stop her. ONCE we had a fluke where we just ran right into a deer and she bolted, the two of them were headed straight toward a state road very close by with 70mph traffic. I cranked it as high as it would go and nailed her. I think that was the only time with her after starting e collar that she actually gave chase. She yelped, but she also stopped immediately and didnt die. I dont think we ever sprang a deer that close again in fl. Up here it happens all. The. Time. Ugh. Good news, she has not chased a deer since we have lived here. Because she is too old to bother or because of that one time I nailed her, I will never know. Not something I feel great about having done but I really do think it saved her life that day and therefore worth it.

She had no fallout from that incident, not afraid to run happily in the woods she just doesnt chase deer.

Anyway. I have never just gone straight to punishment with an e collar. I mean if I could get him to work on an 8 like I did her so I could do some explaining that would be good. 

I mean if he really percieves 25 or 30 as no big deal thats fine, I just am not convinced I have contact. I will try again tomorrow and wet his neck and see what happens.

Basically other than finding game I cant think of a way to make his recall shaky


----------



## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

call manufacturer


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Jax08 said:


> What brand collar do you have? You need to have 3/4" contacts. I think 1/2" comes with as standard. If it's a Sport Dog, you will need to dremel the plastic around the contacts down so more metal shows.
> 
> Have you tried the collar on your hand to make sure it's working? I check my Tritronics on my hand before I put it on every time.
> 
> Personally, I would teach him what that stim means before nailing him for chasing deer. I can see a dog out in a field at full speed suddenly running the wrong direction because he thinks something out there is hurting him.


Jax it is a Dogtra 280ncp. It does have 3/4 inch contacts. He will not be loose again until I am able to stop him with only voice or collar, this would be done on a long line. I also have a 1902 field star but the box is so big ad clunky was hoping to get by with the 280. Yes I tested it on myself and it is working 

I agree, I want to lay a foundation before doing it with game.

All stuff and nonsense till I can get a reaction out of hii!!


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Try the 1902. That 280 is made for smaller dogs, or very sensitive dogs. Might not have a high enough stim.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

OK. I will switch out the contact points because I only have the 1 set of longer ones.

Bummer if he needs the 1900 because the bungee collar I bought wont work for that collar.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I hate those bungee cords. Had one come apart on me and had to look for my brand new Tritronics (one of the last in stock from the actual Tritronics) in a hayfield.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Chip yes and no....
> 
> I used Lou Castle's "crittering" protocol to stop my old gsd from hunting my livestock. With him a d other dogs I lost their attention completely in unfenced areas....the scent of game long gone was enough, and zero recall until I taught it with low level stim layered over recall with long line.
> 
> ...


I understand ... but "Behavior Modification" is "not training." 

If your dog is "engaging" in a behaviour that can get them killed?? Wondering about a "Working level of 25 or 35 ... won't be of much value??? 

It seems like your "Conflating Training/Recall" with "Behaviour Modification???" Not the same thing ... if your dog is engaging in a "behaviour that could get them killed??" You won't have a dog to train. The "Crap needs to stop "Now."

You basically just stated that not screwing around with "levels" ... worked out just fine. So ... what's the problem now??? Sometimes ... you need to "keep it real for the dog." "Then you can work on "Training" or just live in constant fear of "Deer" I suppose??


----------



## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

If you have a dog with a really dense undercoat and the collar is fitted snug then keep cranking it up until he shows a reaction. I had a husy mix recently that I used 1 inch contacts on and still I needed to go to 80+ sometimes to get a reaction. You have to be able to manage levels.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Chip18 said:


> I understand ... but "Behavior Modification" is "not training."
> 
> If your dog is "engaging" in a behaviour that can get them killed?? Wondering about a "Working level of 25 or 35 ... won't be of much value???
> 
> ...


Chip...the only thing was, I wanted to introduce the stim in a less adrenalized situation and teach him how to turn it off which is where the lower levels were supposed to come in.

What's the problem with not screwing around with levels...among other things I am not sure he is as resilient as the dog I blasted and I don't want unintended consequences. He is a young dog & generally a softie. 

That one time was an anomaly for me in how I use e collars.

Anyway he isnt engaging in the behavior now, he has lost his offleash privileges until I have the e collar working and something meaningful happens. 

Blitzkrieg when you went to an 80 did you get a "normal" indication or a vocalization? Like getting the stim thru all that hair an 80 wasnt such a big deal for that dog or...? Were you training already or just looking for the level the dog could percieve?


----------



## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

My former girl never showed me her working level. I ended up guessing and using "my" working level for the initial collar conditioning. She never showed an indication that she felt that anything when I pressed the button, but her general behaviour changed. I just proofed a recall after that. 

My new guy shows his level, but feels it lower. Ie. On a long line, can lower the level and still get a slow down and turn around.

I think the "real" working level (for -r shaping) is lower than the one they will indicate. I would try out a low guess on a long-line and see if that works. 

My goals with the collar are the same as yours--proof a recall so dog can roam safe in woods.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Ok well...got him wet and tried again, still the 280 bc have no changed the points. At 32 he did the classic look down to the side the receiver was on. After the initial "look" he started snapping his mouth a little like he was trying to catch a bug. I scrolled down because after he noticed it it seemed too high. I went all the way down to a 4 with obvious indications. Not sure I understand how we got all the way to 32 if he could actually feel a 4 but whatever.
Maybe that is what David Winners was saying before.

So, at least its a start.


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Some dogs will ignore it until it dawns on them that it's something they need to pay attention to.

I don't bother doing 3 stims per number and then moving up 1 anymore. I stim the dog on continuous and slowly roll the level up until I get a response. Then I move down a bit and go from there. I don't even look at numbers unless I am using the collar on a dog that is proofed and I'm using it for blowing off a behavior.

Another thing you can do with a collar literate dog is roll up on the stim as the dog is blowing you off and then roll back as the dog gets closer to the behavior you want. If you're interested in this, try it on yourself first so changing levels isn't something you have to think about. You need to get used to how far you have to turn the dial so you don't blast the dog unintentionally.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Does the collar have a vibrate mode? If so, try a different mode if pulsing isn't working. Is he perfect on recall from a short distance? With distractions I now work mine off lead, but if he ignores me even once, he goes back on the long lead. You can get very long, sturdy long leads, let him get within smell distance of a deer, and use the lead with stim to correct. Or proof him from shorter distances with all kinds of distractions before letting him go so far away.

After I posted, I saw you have a lot of suggestions. Mine is what I would do with my own dog, but I have not trained other people's dogs like they have.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

LuvShepherds said:


> Does the collar have a vibrate mode? If so, try a different mode if pulsing isn't working. Is he perfect on recall from a short distance? With distractions I now work mine off lead, but if he ignores me even once, he goes back on the long lead. You can get very long, sturdy long leads, let him get within smell distance of a deer, and use the lead with stim to correct. Or proof him from shorter distances with all kinds of distractions before letting him go so far away.
> 
> I just saw you have a lot of suggestions. Mine is what I would do with my own dog, but I have not trained other people's dogs like they have.


Yes it will vibe.

His recall is stellar short distance, long distance, out of sight, the only time he has ever blown me off is when we jump deer. The first 4 or 5 we jumped he DID call off for me so I thought he was going to be the one dog who wouldnt run deer despite no e collar but alas....he eventually got up the nerve so here we are.

Long line with stim is the plan...when I know I have contact and a clue of what number will do it for him. I plan to just hike my normal loop amd hope for training opportunities


----------



## RockyK9 (Dec 9, 2014)

I don't think you need to change your collar or methods by the sounds of it , just getting the 1" contacts will work . No need to wet the area...that just doesn't seem like a log term solution as getting longer contacts. Let us know how it works out.


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

The SCG doesn't need direct contact with skin to work. It's great for longer coated dogs.


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Yes it will vibe.
> 
> His recall is stellar short distance, long distance, out of sight, the only time he has ever blown me off is when we jump deer. The first 4 or 5 we jumped he DID call off for me so I thought he was going to be the one dog who wouldnt run deer despite no e collar but alas....he eventually got up the nerve so here we are.
> 
> Long line with stim is the plan...when I know I have contact and a clue of what number will do it for him. I plan to just hike my normal loop amd hope for training opportunities


The Dogtra may be a better collar for this situation because of higher stim levels if you need them.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Its preferable to avoid excessive reaction. However, with certain dogs that either have a very dense undercoat or a non standard response to the stim (Ignore it) then you must be able to go up until the dog shows a response. 
Inevitably when you have a dog that you have contact issues with you will end up higher then necessary at some point when the collar moves. Thats what a long line is for, continue to use the collar as if nothing has happened and show the dog the way out of the stim. 
...or you can keep screwing with levels to find that perfect number and never get anything done.

Some dogs discern the collar between 3 and 6 and for a few you have to bounce around between 20 and 80 on a daily basis regardless of the contact length, hair cutting or bungee collars.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Its preferable to avoid excessive reaction. However, with certain dogs that either have a very dense undercoat or a non standard response to the stim (Ignore it) then you must be able to go up until the dog shows a response.
> Inevitably when you have a dog that you have contact issues with you will end up higher then necessary at some point when the collar moves. Thats what a long line is for, continue to use the collar as if nothing has happened and show the dog the way out of the stim.
> ...or you can keep screwing with levels to find that perfect number and never get anything done.
> 
> Some dogs discern the collar between 3 and 6 and for a few you have to bounce around between 20 and 80 on a daily basis regardless of the contact length, hair cutting or bungee collars.


So far he seems to be in the 20-80 category. But so far no real excessive reaction to the stim either. I will keep trying.

Thanks for everyone's input


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> So far he seems to be in the 20-80 category. But so far no real excessive reaction to the stim either. I will keep trying.
> 
> Thanks for everyone's input


I'm far from an expert, but when something doesn't work for my dog, I take it a step back and do what does work, then slowly push toward the behavior I want. It might be that the collar isn't going to work for him the way you are using it for distance. Is getting a trainer an option for this one thing? I can see from the trainer posts you got here that they could all get your dog to do what you need, so it must be something about the way you are working with him that gives him the idea he can blow you off. It's not a criticism, only an observation.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

There really is no emergency. I haven't even had a chance to try all the suggestions I have gotten here. He is not in any danger, I won't let him offleash to chase deer and I know enough not to traumatize him with the e collar Just need a little more time to get him figured out because he is starting off a little different than the others I have done.

As for blowing me off for deer, I haven't even started trying to correct that yet, so he has lost offleash hiking. I knew he was getting balsy and I got complacent. He should have been hiking on a leash sooner and started on a e collar sooner. Oh well. I was busy and I dropped the ball, cant change that.

If all else fails I am planning to travel to work with an e collar trainer in another month or so and can talk this over with another trainer before then so we will figure it out one way or the other. 

. He has like 3 acres fenced in, he will not die if he has to hike on leash for awhile


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Update: I changed the 3/4 inch points into my old Dogtra 1902 (thing has to be 8 years old, still working perfectly)

I did not wet him or anything and I just started over looking for where he could percieve it, he gave a normal, unmistakable indication on 5. I was using the regular 1" bio strap. 

I was able to meet with a training mentor to talk over the specifics of how to apply it to him & started a few simple recalls and he is working in the low teens on the 1900. I am not 100 percent sure how much of this was the 280 wasn't the right collar for him vs he just didn't acknowledge the stim because he didn't know what it was.

Regardless...seems we are back in familiar territory. I was too busy this weekend to even work on it with him so we just leash walked on the road to avoid the whole issue with deer


----------

