# NO!



## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

The use of "NO" in training. Why?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

negative re-inforcement?


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> negative re-inforcement?


Do you mean positive puishment? Even then it is not. To me the word "no" is vague and useless in training.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I say "no" to the dogs but don't use it in training. I will say "no" around the house, stops them from doing what they are doing and they walk away.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Liesje said:


> I say "no" to the dogs but don't use it in training. I will say "no" around the house, stops them from doing what they are doing and they walk away.


I can accept that. But all the time I hear people use it in their training and I can not see what advantage this brings.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I say "no" to the dogs but don't use it in training. I will say "no" around the house, stops them from doing what they are doing and they walk away.


I agree. This is what I was referring to on the other thread.

Training for obedience in the home and training for sport are two different things.

In the home it has worked well for me.


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## Holmeshx2 (Apr 25, 2010)

Im with Lies.. we don't use it in training however occassionally around the house its a "loose" and vague term that basically just means to stop what you are doing and go do something else or thats not what I want (like if I tell her to grab a certain toy and she grabs something else)


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

How do I use "no"? 

No-bite to the puppy shark
No, not now, when they are pestering me to go out.
No more, or All Gone, when I am done handing out treats.
No bark, I suppose I have tried that, but usually try Quiet instead.

I usually use EH! when I want them to stop or when something is not what I want.

It is easier to say, and it is effective.

I am not afraid of the no-word. I think it is easier to train a dog what to do and to praise them for doing it, than to wait for a dog to do the wrong thing and then use no to teach them that is not what you want.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Zahnburg said:


> Do you mean positive puishment? Even then it is not. To me the word "no" is vague and useless in training.


yeah, I don't use it either in training I was just wondering if that is what you ment. 

Do you use positive punishment? If so, what do you use?


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## glinny (Sep 14, 2011)

I am really new at puppy training. If I want her to stop doing something what should I say or do? NO seems to make her quit chewing on the cat or biting my hand until I can stuff a toy in her mouth.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

NO to my dogs is a very strong marker word that whatever action they are currently doing is incorrect. Works quite well.
I try not to use it in training, only because it is such a strong negative indicator.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

I was hoping to get a hard-core "no" sayer to chime-in but that has not happened yet, so let me be more specific. 
First, I understand what people mean about using this around the house. In this context the word simply means to do something else, there is no specific thing that the dog should be doing just not what they are doing.
Having said that, this is what I often see and I do not understand. A person is heeling and the dog begins to forge, they correct the dog and tell him no. What does the dog get from this? The handler tells the dog to down and the down is slow, they tell the dog "no", what does the dog get from this? 
In my view, when I correct a dog I like to tell them WHY I am correcting them. The dog forges, I correct him and I tell him "heel". He understands what "heel" means, he learns there are consequeses for being out of position, and he knows why he is getting the correction.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> yeah, I don't use it either in training I was just wondering if that is what you ment.
> 
> Do you use positive punishment? If so, what do you use?


I use whatever the particular dog in that particular circumstance requires. If a clicker is the best choice, that is what I use. If a prong collar is the best choice that is what I use.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I am with the others..........I don't use it for training. Around the house...any number of things.....whining "nooooooooooo" "what the bleep are you doing?!" "stoooooooooop".

With that said, I know I am guilty of saying it in training as well without really being aware of it. It's more out of frustration when I've said it. It's not something I do on purpose, but I know I've done it. 

So with that said...how many people that say it regularily really realize they are doing it or have a purpose?


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

GSDElsa said:


> So with that said...how many people that say it regularily really realize they are doing it or have a purpose?


Maybe this is the real question


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I know of a very successful schutzhund trainer who uses NO regularly in training, as a negative marker. 
Dog forges, NO ...... FUSS. Must work for him.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

I am not saying that people who do this are insane, I know a number of people who do it and are very successful, I just do not understand it. Can you explain this to me?


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Just like using GOOD as a marker that the dog is correct and to keep on doing it, or a click/release word to mark perfection and the end of the exercise....... NO is just a marker word (although for some dogs it is more akin to a correction. )

It is just feedback for the dog," you are incorrect and need to fix that."
Sometimes corrections tend to shut a dog down.... They may lose drive and energy. A marker word tells the dog he is incorrect, without the issues that corrections can cause.

And then, as mentioned, sometimes NO is a correction in itself.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I am more the Eh-Eh or Ah-Ah kind of person. Not sure if that counts the same as a no?


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

gagsd said:


> Just like using GOOD as a marker that the dog is correct and to keep on doing it, or a click/release word to mark perfection and the end of the exercise....... NO is just a marker word (although for some dogs it is more akin to a correction. )
> 
> It is just feedback for the dog," you are incorrect and need to fix that."
> Sometimes corrections tend to shut a dog down.... They may lose drive and energy. A marker word tells the dog he is incorrect, without the issues that corrections can cause.
> ...


Here is the problem I have with this explaination; to me "no" is very vague, it does not tell the dog WHY he is wrong or WHAT he should be doing instead. The use of "good" means that the dog is correct and he should continue doing what he is doing, whereas "no" only conveys that the dog is wrong not why he is wrong or what he should do to remedy his 'wrongness'.
To me it is much better to correct the dog and tell him WHY or tell him WHAT he SHOULD be doing.


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## Kaity (Nov 18, 2009)

Use it kinda as a correction - to get her to leave the cat alone I say "no kitty." 
"no more potty?" is like a last call.. if you need to pee Vida, you best do it quickly. 
I thought it was used as something infront of another word to let them know what they are doing is wrong. Any word can have any meaning if you teach it. If I wanted Vida to lay down, I could have taught "no" and she would've reacted accordingly.. 

I use it when I'm really tired and want her to go away, "No Vida, leave mommy!" or "No, leave it!" It's sort of a word that I use to get her attention so she knows whats coming is ssomething she should not be doing. I also use the word .. Well, I don't know, it's like ought with an a.. or out with an a. "Aught!" but more of an "at" like sound. It gets her attention and she corrects her bad behaivor when she hears it unless she's not aware that what she's doing is something I think is unacceptable.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I do not use "No" in formal puppy training, but I do use "no" in much of my "manners" training.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Mrs.K said:


> I am more the Eh-Eh or Ah-Ah kind of person. Not sure if that counts the same as a no?


Me to. 

I don't think dogs instinctively understand the word "no" in the same way they instinctively understand a deep, gutteral, "Eh-eh" or "AAAcccckkk!" Don't believe me? Try correcting your dog by saying, "no? no?" in a soft tone of voice.


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## tropicalsun (Jun 7, 2011)

I use "no". I wouldn't classify myself as "hardcore." For us "yes" means we agree with the behavior and a reward is coming now. "Good" means we agree with the behavior, continue to do it. "No" means we don't agree with the behavior and no reward is coming and no correction is coming either (loss of reward.) "Stop" means a correction is coming now...used very sparingly. I'm quite sure there are better methods of training but this seems to be working for us so far.


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## LukasGSD (May 18, 2011)

tropicalsun said:


> I use "no". I wouldn't classify myself as "hardcore." For us "yes" means we agree with the behavior and a reward is coming now. "Good" means we agree with the behavior, continue to do it. "No" means we don't agree with the behavior and no reward is coming and no correction is coming either (loss of reward.) "Stop" means a correction is coming now...used very sparingly. I'm quite sure there are better methods of training but this seems to be working for us so far.




This is how I use No as well. He knows No means he did something incorrect and to try again. For example, If I say sit and he doesn't sit. I'll say "No....sit." And he will correct himself. I also use "Yes" as a marker/reward. I'm working on using good. But a lot of the times he'll break whatever behavior he's doing to get a reward. So work in progress.


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## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

Every time I say "no" it is paired with a leash correction. "Sit" and if the dog does not sit, "No, Sit" leash correction and if the dog sits, "Yes! Good sit." Etc. That way "no" actually has a meaning.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@ Shainia, We have a person in our club that does that and it always leads to problems when she goes to off leash training. Have tried to educate her, but it is so ingrained that she continues. Your dog actually thinks sit requires a leash pop for execution....Think about it. In other words the dog will learn that sit + leash pop means to sit. This is not something you want to create, JMO


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## Lynn_P (Mar 17, 2004)

This is a good discussion.... I don't like to use it in "formal training", but will use it when running blinds and the dog decides to blow off one of those six blinds... I don't use the e-collar in this situation (and I know I should), but by giving a strong verbal "no", I can usually get the dog back to me without him reaching blind 6. Using "no" as a negative marker in most of the formal training is timed incorrectly as the dog has no idea why he received that "no".


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## Klamari (Aug 6, 2010)

The only time I've ever used "No" during sport training is when she tries to take my hand off to get her ball. She knows she's not supposed to, but does it anyway when she gets too excited. And her chomping my hand isn't something I'm willing to ignore, and then mark the good like most of her other training 

I rarely use it at home either though. It's more of a "ah!" when she gets into something bad.


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## CookieTN (Sep 14, 2008)

When I say "no" I mean "you're doing it wrong and you will not get rewarded". I dunno, seems to work.
I use "ack!" if the dog is doing something that I want him to stop doing, but not as far as teaching him a command goes.


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## cindy_s (Jun 14, 2009)

I'll chime in. I have a sound for no, not the actual word. I never use it around the house. It is purely a negative marker for OB. I've been blessed with a dog that wants nothing but to please me. And it is much more powerful for her than a prong. I don't bother with it in protection, because she is in too high a drive state. But I use it in many situations for OB. I was able to fix a severe forging problem with the build up for the send out with it. The problem was so bad I was circling and using the prong with no real results. But just giving her that sound stopped the problem in three sessions. I also think my timing with the verbal feedback is better than with a prong or electric. My current issue is that she will brush the jump with her back feet. My problem was how could I tell her she was wrong for such a slight brush of the jump. Now I'm sending her over the jump to a target. When she brushes it, she get the negative marker immediately. It's working. 
I think you need a certain dog for it to be effective. My male wouldn't care in the least if I gave him a verbal negative marker. But, for my female, it is the best tool I have.


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## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

I use No, but it's a calm "No-ooo" not a sharp "NO!". For example if maggie is of leash heeling and she gets ahead of me, I issue the "No-ooo" and she circles back around me into the heel position.

Seems to work fine.

There's a lady that goes to the local dog park who is quite proud that she has never said No to her dog. The dog is not very obedient. Not saying the two are related.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I use No. I was taught it "resets" the dog. And often with Jax, NO is the correction. The real mistake I made was not waiting between the NO and the command. Jax thought the commands were No, Sit. No, Down and I had to retrain her. The only "correction" she gets at this time is not getting her reward. Eventually we'll move back into collar corrections when her drive is built back up.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I use yes when the dog is correct and no when they are incorrect. For me it works and, IMO, makes the training clearer to the dogs when used correctly. No gray. And believe me, "NO!" has meaning to my dogs. 

If used incorrectly, it can confuse the dog, but then again, so can poorly timed rewards.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I don't generally use "no" when training, but I may use "leave it" if they're focusing on something else, or a sharp "hey!" if I need to get their attention. I do use "no" to teach manners, but more often I make a sharp "Ah!" sound, like the sharp bark dogs use to tell each other "no". Like if she jumps on me. 

Even with manners, I tend to use a lot of negative reinforcement with the puppy at this stage. For example, if I go to let the dogs in and the puppy jumps up on the door, I turn around and walk away a few steps, wait until she's sitting nicely, then let her in. It probably does not work as well as positive punishment to extinguish the door-jumping behavior (ie a shock or other correction) but I do see the wheels turning in her head. I will walk toward the door and she will get excited and start to jump... then stop mid-jump and plant her butt back down, wiggling with excitement. 

The door-jumping is annoying, but not so egregious that I want to make a big deal over it at this point. I need to pick my battles, and just like a woman, I tend to manipulate rather than correct to get the results I want with my dogs.  Especially so because my pup tends to load on corrections.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I use "ah ah" so in reality, it is the same as using "no".

I will give an example, if I teach the behavior properly and it is understood (the dog has succeeded multiple times and has shown me an understanding of the behavior) then I use this "ah ah" as a correction or, a better way of putting it would be a 'try again'.

So, I ask for "sits" and the dog goes into a "platz".

I say, "ah ah/no" and wait the dog out.

The dog offers a sits and I mark/reward with a "yes" (along with food or tug/ball).

For me, the "ah ah" or "no" is another way of saying, "try again". 

If the dog doesn't get the behavior right after the correction then I do tend to help them out - AND - I go back and proof that behavior before I bring the corrections back. If the dog doesn't understand the behavior I am looking for after the correction then obviously it was my fault for not proofing my dog properly.

Most times it is because the dog is so excited and anticipating the reward (distracted) that they offer the first behavior incorrectly because they are not fully paying attention. Once the correction comes and the reward doesn't they tend to 'wake up' and perform correctly from that point on.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I don't use 'no' for jumping on me. I use "Off, don't jump on the Susie." But then I am another that talks to my dogs in questions and conversations. Do you want to go out means something totally different than Let's go close the shop, and let's go sit on the porch. Go tell dad (that he needs to go out) and so forth. Our dog's understand a whole lot more than we give them credit for.


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## catz (Dec 10, 2010)

I tried using No as a marker for a bad behaviour that I wanted Rio to stop but it never made any effect. Yes and No are said to much in my house so it just blended into the babble she was used to hearing. 
I now use a loud, sharp AH! and this stops her in her tracks. If she hears AH! she will instantly turn to face me and wait for futher direction. I dropped using OK or Yes for an action I liked and started using Free!.


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## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> @ Shainia, We have a person in our club that does that and it always leads to problems when she goes to off leash training. Have tried to educate her, but it is so ingrained that she continues. Your dog actually thinks sit requires a leash pop for execution....Think about it. In other words the dog will learn that sit + leash pop means to sit. This is not something you want to create, JMO


I was talking more about during the imprinting stage, and I have never had a problem with it with any of my dogs... nor has my boss who has trained hundreds of pet and sport dogs during her career. If it is not working for a dog, then yes, it is time for a new method, but I don't see any harm in using a correction with a no. Same goes for if you use electric, no at the same time of stimulation. My dogs off leash reliability is very high.


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## cowboy17 (Sep 26, 2011)

I also use the "ah-ah" in a growling type of voice.
I use it as a marker exactly in the same way I use a clicker or a verbal yes.

If I say "sit" and doggy doesn't start to sit in 1 second, he gets the "ah-ah" and the command is given again. If he sits this time fast enough he gets the yes and a treat.

Never liked the "no". To easy for others to use it. (Kinda funny when they try to tell my dog "no" and he looks at them like they are speaking martian or something).


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@ Shainia....Cool!


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

lhczth said:


> I use yes when the dog is correct and no when they are incorrect. For me it works and, IMO, makes the training clearer to the dogs when used correctly. No gray. And believe me, "NO!" has meaning to my dogs.
> 
> If used incorrectly, it can confuse the dog, but then again, so can poorly timed rewards.


This is how I use it. I think of it as giving feedback. I think they learn faster when you let them know when they are right _and_ when they are wrong.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

From the discussion, it seems that the value of the word No in training is dependant on the meaning for the dog in training. If is it used as a negative reward marker, then the dog understands that the behavior is not one that will earn reward. It can be very useful, I would think. I never liked seeing dogs left to guessing and guessing when behaviors are being shaped. It is not a correction, in my mind, but rather information as to the opportunity for earning reward.

If it is used as a correction, I am not sure of its value. It does not necessarily isolate for the dog what was incorrect. It seems to leave the dog with a wide open set of options as to what is actually wanted. If this behavior getsv "no", how does the dog know what was actually desired?

If No is used during a complex behavior, how does the dog know which aspect of the behavior was incorrect? They might think you had no desire for them to perform the entire exercise?

No used as a non-reward marker is different from it used as a "correction"? I don't scold dogs or use verbal corrections much in training. If I do fall into that, I never found it to be very useful training.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Lynn_P said:


> I don't like to use it in "formal training", but will use it when running blinds and the dog decides to blow off one of those six blinds... I don't use the e-collar in this situation (and I know I should), but by giving a strong verbal "no", I can usually get the dog back to me without him reaching blind 6.


Now this is a very good example of where I see this being problematic. (don't mean to pick on you Lynn  )

If the dog misses a blind and you say "NO!" what is the dog supposed to do? Should he run the blind he missed? Come back to you? Down? WHAT should he do with "NO" and HOW does he know what to do? 

For me, I think it is better to give the dog a very clear command. In this case (missing a blind) I would simply down the dog, pick him up and begin again at the beginning.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I use No or Oops to mark the instance that they go astray, then we start over from the beginning. I don't think there is really much difference between saying No and starting over or putting them in a down/sit and starting over.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

If Karlo missed a blind, the word NO from me would not be a reason to stop. 

I do not use the word NO in training or even at home for manners...usually I'll tell the dog "off", "quiet" "heir" or "back" as keywords....NO is not a command or a key word.
Stop may pop out of my mouth, but not a NO.
Back to blinds....I don't use electric so a collar pop is what works for now....but the word NO would mean nothing when my dog is in drive and running towards the hot blind instead of the one I wanted him to search. 
I wish verbal correction would work in such an instance.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> If the dog misses a blind and you say "NO!" what is the dog supposed to do? Should he run the blind he missed? Come back to you? Down? WHAT should he do with "NO" and HOW does he know what to do?


Usually most people would pair it with a command.. The "no" is just to let the dog know they screwed up or better yet "where" they screwed up.. Then you could pair it with a heir or a platz.. 

Personally I don't see anything wrong with using the word no, yes, eh eh, phooey, good, f.u., etc.. It's all in how one wants to communicate to "their" dog..


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

cliffson1 said:


> @ Shainia, We have a person in our club that does that and it always leads to problems when she goes to off leash training. Have tried to educate her, but it is so ingrained that she continues. Your dog actually thinks sit requires a leash pop for execution....Think about it. In other words the dog will learn that sit + leash pop means to sit. This is not something you want to create, JMO


Yeah I've seen that too but it doesn't have anything to do with the use of a negative marker, which is what the "no" is. We have a few people in my club who have succeeded in training their dog that the (usually nagging) pop is the actual command. Nothing I say works to change their behavior.....as usual, the people are more difficult to train than the dogs! Hmmm maybe I need to tell THE TRAINERS "no"


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

I say "Nein" to let Hunter know what he is doing is incorrect, and that I am not pleased with it.


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## Lynn_P (Mar 17, 2004)

Zahnburg said:


> Now this is a very good example of where I see this being problematic. (don't mean to pick on you Lynn  )
> 
> If the dog misses a blind and you say "NO!" what is the dog supposed to do? Should he run the blind he missed? Come back to you? Down? WHAT should he do with "NO" and HOW does he know what to do?
> 
> For me, I think it is better to give the dog a very clear command. In this case (missing a blind) I would simply down the dog, pick him up and begin again at the beginning.


You can pick on me all you want.. LOL. I would say "No".. to get the dog's attention and then give him the command "Here".


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

:laugh:


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I use the No like Lynn does, something that means "stop what you're doing immediately and put attention to the command to do what I want and no what you want" That is a NO! short and sharp.

I also use a smooth no that means "no reward". That way I play with the "Nooo..." and the "Good boy" in the same way you played "warm-cold" when you were a kid. Why show the dog only what I want if I also can show what I don't want in a way that doesn't mean a correction?


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Die Musik


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## sheep (Dec 2, 2011)

For me, NO is to stop doing something or going after something. But I tend to do "ACK ACK", "HEY" or "SHH" too, even thought I'm trying to pick just one of these words lol. If my dog listens then I'd praise him with "good boy" and petting, and then redirect him to something else by saying "this" and handling him something or poking at something. I would also redirect him sometimes with "OUT" to tell him to distance himself.

The tone of voice of NO depends on the context. If I know that my dog doesn't know that going after a certain thing is bad, then I would just use a gentle and firm NO, but if he does know that I don't like it already, my tone can have some anger in it.


I don't use it for training thought, for training I use positive reinforcement only, and with food and toy he would just try hard to do the right thing anyways so I'd just reward the right choice and he gets it pretty quick. 

If he knows a command but doesn't pay attention or listen, I'd just insist on having his attention 'till he does what I want.


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## Hunther's Dad (Mar 13, 2010)

*My Training Algorithm*

I studied computer programming for a little while (before I figured out that in the computer industry, if you're over 20 you might as well not bother if you're trying for a second career - if you're 45 you might as well be 100 ).

Here's a small program, not written in a real computer language, to illustrate (there are a lot of subroutines left out, i.e. Get Dog Out Of Car, Potty Dog First, etc.):

*RUN* (Fido sit)

1. *DEFINE* a variable called "sit" that means dog places butt on ground
2. *DEFINE* a variable called counter, with a value of 0
3. *GET* dog's attention *OR* wait for dog's attention
4. *GIVE* command "sit"

*IF* sit = dog places butt on ground

*THEN* - Say "GOOD DOG!" and dog gets treat or toy
*ADD* 1 to variable counter

*END* program when counter = 5

*IF* sit does not = dog places butt on ground

*THEN* - Say "no" 
*ADD* 1 to variable counter

*RETURN* to step 4

*IF* sit does not = dog places butt on ground *AND* counter = 5

*END* program Fido Sit

*RUN* (Why isn't Fido getting it) (Way too long a program to list here )


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