# Question on lines



## SD0202 (Mar 8, 2014)

Hi,

I was wondering if anyone knew of any Really good books or websites about different working DDR, Czech, and German working lines? I really want to know what the main differences are in the lines. Also, how important or how much of a difference is there between lines? To give you some background, I would be a first time/ novice and I would really like to do Schutzhund, is there a particular line I should start with (because I would just be starting out)? I am hoping to gain more information to help narrow down a search for breeders. Also if there are some threads that you know of that would be helpful, please let me know. I was trying to find some, but wasn't having much luck.

Thanks for your assistance!!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

First and foremost I would be looking for breeders that are actually out there working and titling their dogs AND have successfully picked puppies for others that have gone on to title. They should have a far better feel as to whether or not one of their dogs would be suitable for you and your goals. Then they should also be able to pick the right puppy for you. 

I am partial to WGWL, but have included some older DDR working lines and would consider some Czech depending on the dog and the cross. You might find the pure Czech and DDR dogs more difficult to train especially for a first time handler (especially the DDR dogs bred now). For a novice I would put more trust in an experienced breeder than my own ability to find the right dog. 

Have you visited any clubs? This can also help you not only find breeders, but also get a feel for the sport and the dogs that are out there trialing and titling. When you see dogs you like you can then maybe find out more about how they are bred.


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## SD0202 (Mar 8, 2014)

Ok. 

Im sorry I guess I wasn't clear. I don't want to pick out my own dog/puppy, I want the breeder to decide that for me. I guess my question was should I be concerned with the lineage BEFORE deciding on the which breeders I should look at. To be honest, I don't know where to start in my search for information. I haven't visited any groups yet, I was going to go last spring, but I felt I didn't know enough about the breed or the sport yet to know what to even ask the members. I want to go this spring, and really have a better understanding of both so I don't sound completely ignorant lol.


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## wolfmanusf (Apr 5, 2012)

SD0202 said:


> Ok.
> 
> Im sorry I guess I wasn't clear. I don't want to pick out my own dog/puppy, I want the breeder to decide that for me. I guess my question was should I be concerned with the lineage BEFORE deciding on the which breeders I should look at. To be honest, I don't know where to start in my search for information. I haven't visited any groups yet, I was going to go last spring, but I felt I didn't know enough about the breed or the sport yet to know what to even ask the members. I want to go this spring, and really have a better understanding of both so I don't sound completely ignorant lol.


At this point, most of the working lines have been blended together, so there is really not much difference between the lines. Find a breeder who is working their dogs and has a track record of success with their breedings. 

I wrote a post on my website for beginners and their first visits to schutzhund club that you may find helpful: First Visit to Schutzhund Club

If you have any other questions, feel free to ask. 

John


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

What part of the state are you in? There are quite a few clubs actively training during the Winter months(and the outlook looks pretty mild for the rest of Dec.) I'd get with a couple clubs and ask if you can visit, see the different dogs working and chat with handlers. 
If you do want to get into IPO, then getting with a club before you have a pup is always a good idea. In MI, there are clusters of areas with clubs and areas where there is absolutely nothing. Where I live, there is nothing....


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## SD0202 (Mar 8, 2014)

Thank you for the link!! That is really helpful! I live in Lansing (I attend MSU as a graduate student), however, may be moving to the Saginaw area next fall. So I shouldn't worry about the lines then?


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

well written article Wolf. thanks for sharing the link


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

IMO you have to worry about the lines to a certain extent, as I said above, because some of the "pure" DDR and Czech lines may not be what you want to work with as a novice. JMO  There are a lot of breeders out there, but not all have real experience working dogs or training/titling in SchH. 

Stay around the Lansing area. Saginaw is a waste land when it comes to clubs.  There is a good helper/club in Charlotte. Check here:
United Schutzhund Clubs of America

Jane and I also train with a good non sanctioned club west of Ann Arbor that might be an option.


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## SD0202 (Mar 8, 2014)

Yes, Jane gave me that link last year, I will definitely call and check them out!! Thanks for the reminder!! I also contacted Chris Wild and she recommended that I check out numerous clubs because of the different cultures of all the groups


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## SD0202 (Mar 8, 2014)

Not last year, I meant last spring


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

agree with lhczth.

there are not really any "books" -- but if you are interested in lines and breeders and events and results you may be interested in magazines , especially Schutzhund USA .

I have decades worth of back issues which I offer at no charge except actual shipping just so that I can edit my too large reference library.

Shipping can be expensive because of the weight of these magazines. That is the only thing that I would want , a reimbursement for my actual costs .

Knowing some of the lines is going to be important as there are now specialty sport/trialing lines which are directed towards a quick , flashier, more reactive type of character , mostly high prey based. This matches the newer type of decoy work. You can go round and round in circles . One affects the other . 

By reactive think of impulsive . 

You can go into this forum's archives and search for threads which cover this . Comments from Lisa (lhczth)
Anne (Vandal) Lee (wolfstraum) , Chris (Wild) , Cliff , Bjorn (giving his view point from a Swedish perspective) myself (carmspack) and many many others who contributed to and moved a discussion along with questions and debate.

I'll be busy for the majority of the day so won't be able to pinpoint a specific thread till much later. Maybe another forum member could do this to get the ball rolling.

This forum is the best living and breathing resource for anything on working lines . All books tend to concentrate on show lines . Partly because the great documenters of the breed wrote their books at a time when there pretty much was one breed , not a specialized 4 or 5 way split.

Names would be Willis, Lanting, Wooton, Barwig , Nem and Percy Elliot . Blogs - Shaw (new book coming out) .

Lisa said "(especially the DDR dogs bred now)" . Unfortunately this is a truth nowadays. The dogs are not the same as the first ones that left the zone . 

The "DDR" dogs you get now tend to be niche market cosmetic type dogs chosen for "signature" colors .

There are some awesome DDR lines which provide natural instinct , old herding lines , and natural tracking drives .

there's a starting point for you ....


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Have you ever seen Working Dog EU ? There's a lot there, pedigrees, trial results, video. You're looking for a dog specifically for IPO? I don't mean this disrespectfully to anyone, but I wouldn't bother worrying about lines. Go meet people and their dogs. Face to face. 

I'd ignore claims about DDR, old style, Czech this and that on websites. See the actual dogs and speak to the people. Then I'd go see Staatsmacht in Minnesota.


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## SD0202 (Mar 8, 2014)

Well I will go and see the clubs then. I really just got self-conscious last spring and thought I didn't know enough to quite go yet (to have an informed conversation, and mostly I didn't want to waste the members' time). I was reading some of the forums and there were a lot of posts to the IPO as to the "goals" were for the dog. So after reading, I thought I should of know more than " I want to do Schutzhunds"(thats the only goal I have right now). But when I go maybe the members can help me develop those goals a bit better.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

No matter where you go, people love to talk about their dogs. Don't worry about what you know or don't know. I guarantee someone there will be willing to tell you about what you're watching.


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