# Wait for Recall



## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

I'm a little frustrated with my trainer tonight. I take cheap training classes through the local school district with fosters and my dogs for fun. It's a good way to get the basics down for cheaper than other places. There are 3 trainers there one of which being a rescue friend. He does have a way with dogs but he is very heavy on the correction and prong collars which I decided is not the way I want to train Kaiser. This is his first obedience class ever.

At the end of class tonight, we were working on recall. Kaiser has "stayed" the last two classes on the first or second command with the trainer holding the leash in case he broke so tonight I told him not to hold Kaiser's leash just stand close. We have been working on "wait" at home instead of stay and tonight Kaiser didn't listen to either on the first, second or third try. At that point I get frustrated with myself and the trainer.

I have found that he waits if I tell him "sit" treat him and then say "wait" and walk away. 

The trainers method for correcting the dog for breaking the "wait/stay" command is to get him in heel position (tell him sit if needed), give him a pop, tell him "stay" and then walk away. We discussed this at the end of class and I said I don't agree with the correction before telling him to "stay/wait" because you are correcting him for nothing (or correcting him for sit if I have to tell him sit). The trainer's theory is that it clears the slate before giving the "stay/wait" command. 

So I have two questions. What are your thoughts on the pop before the wait command? and Do you correct the dog for breaking the "wait" command when practicing recall? If so, how?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Kick the trainer in the shins to clear his slate.

If you are doing it the way my trainer told me too, then don't say Wait. If you tell him to sit, then he should sit. If he breaks, then put him back and tell him to Sit again. What else was going on around you? You said this was his first OB class? I think you are expecting to much of him to follow the commands there like he did at home the first time out.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> Kick the trainer in the shins to clear his slate.


You know who I am talking about too.



> If you are doing it the way my trainer told me too, then don't say Wait. If you tell him to sit, then he should sit. If he breaks, then put him back and tell him to Sit again. What else was going on around you? You said this was his first OB class? I think you are expecting to much of him to follow the commands there like he did at home the first time out.


I meant first class as in the total class. Tonight was the 4th week of a 10 week class. He did it the last two weeks okay. The class is in a gym, we wait until almost everyone else has gone so the other dogs are at the other end and less of a distraction.

I know not to expect too much of Kaiser since I have only been actively training him a few months and we are just adding the distraction of a class. We also skipped beginner and put ourselves right into the advanced class. I have taken this class 4 other times with Raven so I know what to do to get him prepped. Of the new dogs in the class, Kaiser is the best. I get frustrated because I know the trainer wants me to correct Kaiser but I don't think it's appropriate for this.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Jax08 said:


> Kick the trainer in the shins to clear his slate.


:rofl: Do you have clearly different criteria for wait and stay? I would not use them interchangeably (not saying you are, but I can't tell what the difference between them is from your post and which you're trying to work on here), and I see no reason for a pop on the collar before giving a command.  

How much time have you spent teaching him what stay/wait means before adding distance, duration, and distraction?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I had a pretty solid stay with Halo in a training class (off leash!) by the time she was 6 months old. But I worked on it a LOT.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Do you have clearly different criteria for wait and stay? I would not use them interchangeably (not saying you are, but I can't tell what the difference between them is from your post and which you're trying to work on here), and I see no reason for a pop on the collar before giving a command.
> 
> How much time have you spent teaching him what stay/wait means before adding distance, duration, and distraction?


I am just starting to build the difference between wait and stay with him. The instructors in the class mostly use stay while I am trying to teach Kaiser that wait means wait until I call you and stay means stay no matter what. That's why I used them interchangeably in my post. To be honest, I used "stay" with him the last two weeks but realized that's not what I wanted to do so we have started working on the difference at home.

Kaiser and I have only been training together for about 2 months. Stay and wait are new to him in the last 2-3 weeks. 

My posts wasn't so much that Kaiser wasn't doing it perfect but to talk about the training theory. I've worked with this trainer (and friend) since Raven was young and listened to him with Raven but have educated myself since then and find myself agreeing with him less and less which he doesn't really like.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

gsdraven said:


> My posts wasn't so much that Kaiser wasn't doing it perfect but to talk about the training theory. I've worked with this trainer (and friend) since Raven was young and listened to him with Raven but have educated myself since then and find myself agreeing with him less and less which he doesn't really like.


Yeah, I did get that, but I was asking because the way *I* would teach each of them would be a little different because my criteria for them is different. For me, stay is stay in that position (stand/sit/down) and I'll either come back to you OR I'll call you. Wait means you can do whatever you want as long as you don't cross this invisible line, but I didn't want to make any assumptions about what the commands mean to you. 

This is how I teach stay: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-our-puppy-basic/153300-training-stay.html#post2057182


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Oh, and I wouldn't be correcting him for breaking at this point, other than verbally, not until he's got a firm grasp of the concept. I just use a no-reward marker, put the dog back in place and try again.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think the training theory is crap but you already know that! LOL

In my opinion, putting him in a heel and then correcting him is going to confuse him. He has no idea what he's being corrected for. Like my trainer said, dogs have a 3-5 second recall on connecting things. So, he breaks his stay, he gets put in a heel (which is allowing him to get away with breaking his stay) and then he gets corrected. First, I think to much time has passed so he doesn't have a clue why he just got a pinch. Second, he's being corrected for being in a heel. 

In my opinion, he should have been put back in a sit (calmly and without correction because even with 4 classes it's still kind of new to him) and just start over. Reward him for staying in the sit, put him back with just a verbal (negative) marker if he breaks.

btw...I really, really, really wish you were closer so we could train together!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

If you don't do something when he breaks (could be just a verbal "EEHHH" or some such), how is the dog to know that he didn'y do it right?

Doesn't have to be, and shouldn't be, a real correction until you are sure that he really does know what he is supposed to do.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

wait means wait untill i call you. when you tell
your dog to stay doesn't he have to stay untill the next command?

when you say wait doesn't he have to wait untill the next command???

are you training your dog daily and several times a day?
are there any distractions when you train at home (dogs, cats,
people moving around, people calling your dog, etc)?



gsdraven said:


> I am just starting to build the difference between wait and stay with him.
> 
> >>>>>> The instructors in the class mostly use stay while I am trying to teach Kaiser that wait means wait until I call you and stay means stay no matter what. <<<<<<
> 
> That's why I used them interchangeably in my post. To be honest, I used "stay" with him the last two weeks but realized that's not what I wanted to do so we have started working on the difference at home.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Jax08 said:


> In my opinion, he should have been put back in a sit (calmly and without correction because even with 4 classes it's still kind of new to him) and just start over. Reward him for staying in the sit, put him back with just a verbal (negative) marker if he breaks.


:thumbup:


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

Your trainer is correct on how to correct a dog that is breaking on the recall, BUT that is only for a dog that is solid on what is expected of him. It is unfair to correct a dog that doesn't understand the exercise.

I don't teach the recall the way you are doing it. I teach the recall part from the restrained recall with someone holding him and you working him up so he wants to come to you like a shot and then he's released and then he's rewarded when he gets to you by throwing a toy between your legs and he runs through them. 

I also teach the dog to hold a sit with distance and distractions and then return to heel position before releasing him. Basically, he needs a reliable stay first. 

I teach the front by moving in front of him and taking steps back while giving him treats.

Once you get all three steps down, then you can start putting them together.

If you are going to use wait and stay, be sure to use them properly and consistently. I use them too and get what you are talking about.


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## Achielles UD (May 26, 2001)

Had to put in my 2 cents worth...

I believe in using corrections, but only after a dog has learned and understands the command. A dog will demonstrate he/she understands the correction by stopping the correction by preforming the asked-for behavior after the correction and also show they know how to avoid the correction by doing the asked-for behavior.

I don't believe Kaiser knows "stay" or "wait" so corrections whether by you or the trainer will be tolerated but won't be teaching him anything ... he'll be confused.

I too use "stay" and "wait" to mean the same as you. "Stay" done with a right hand signal also, means Do Not Move (from place or position I left you in) no matter what and I will come back to heel to release you. "Wait" is done with a left hand signal also, means to wait in position/place for another command.

When training, I focus on Stay. I want my dog to solidly perform their Stay. I NEVER ask a dog to "Sit, Stay, Come". In training I don't even start teaching a "Sit, Wait, Come" until I have done at least a 3 minute sit stay in sight and a 1 min sit stay out of sight. The only time I ever use a sit/wait/come is in the ring.

I teach "Come" with restrained recalls or distraction recalls, never a sit/wait/stay/come... 

Personally, I wouldn't be calling a dog from a Sit/Stay/Wait until I have proofed the Stay and done a gazillion restrained or distracted recalls. 

Another trick I do... For the dogs that like to break because they just have to get to you (you know the type-waiting on pins and needles for you to call them, intense in watching you, waiting for you to take that bigger breath to call them...this is all of my dogs by the way lol)... I start alternating what I say. Sometimes I will say their name and come (rarely- oh and anytime I say their name, it means come IMO) but usually I will take that big breath and say "Sit!" I want them listening to the command not cuing off my body language or breath.  

In short - corrections are fine if the dog understands what he is supposed to be doing to prevent the correction and how to stop the correction. If the correction is not working, he doesn't understand and it is not fair to use it. I'd work more on training "Stay" and the "Come" seperatly.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> I think the training theory is crap but you already know that! LOL
> 
> In my opinion, putting him in a heel and then correcting him is going to confuse him. He has no idea what he's being corrected for. Like my trainer said, dogs have a 3-5 second recall on connecting things. So, he breaks his stay, he gets put in a heel (which is allowing him to get away with breaking his stay) and then he gets corrected. First, I think to much time has passed so he doesn't have a clue why he just got a pinch. Second, he's being corrected for being in a heel.


This is what I was arguing with him. The correction is just poorly placed and in my opinion connected to him doing what his was asked (the sit). Trainer was contradicting himself saying that there's only a few seconds to correct but then this correction was "clearing the slate" when obviously it was either correcting for sitting or for nothing which is unfair IMO.



Jax08 said:


> In my opinion, he should have been put back in a sit (calmly and without correction because even with 4 classes it's still kind of new to him) and just start over. Reward him for staying in the sit, put him back with just a verbal (negative) marker if he breaks.
> 
> btw...I really, really, really wish you were closer so we could train together!


This is how I want to do it and finally did do it and Kaiser listened. I just need to be a little more assertive about doing it my way and not listening when I don't agree with it.

I wish we were closer too, Michelle. You'd love Kaiser! We're going to move on to a training club after this class that is more in line with how I want to train Kaiser. We just took this class for basics because it was 5 min away and cheap vs 40 min away and 3 times the price.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Achielles UD said:


> Another trick I do... For the dogs that like to break because they just have to get to you (you know the type-waiting on pins and needles for you to call them, intense in watching you, waiting for you to take that bigger breath to call them...this is all of my dogs by the way lol)... I start alternating what I say. Sometimes I will say their name and come (rarely- oh and anytime I say their name, it means come IMO) but usually I will take that big breath and say "Sit!" I want them listening to the command not cuing off my body language or breath.


I acutally have this problem with Raven. If I tell her wait and walk away, as soon as I turn around and look at her she comes flying to me (in class). Kaiser (when he waits) actually sits calmly and waits for me to say come.

Your post was really helpful. Thanks!



Achielles UD said:


> In short - corrections are fine if the dog understands what he is supposed to be doing to prevent the correction and how to stop the correction. If the correction is not working, he doesn't understand and it is not fair to use it. I'd work more on training "Stay" and the "Come" seperatly.


I'm not against corrections. I actually believe the same as everyone else that's posted: corrections are for when they know what is being asked but don't do it which is not the case with Kaiser yet.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

codmaster said:


> If you don't do something when he breaks (could be just a verbal "EEHHH" or some such), how is the dog to know that he didn'y do it right?


Who and what are you arguing against? Did you read the OP? She's not asking whether or not corrections are ever warranted, she's asking about the specific way this trainer was using them to teach this specific thing to a dog in the 4th week of his first ever training class. 

Do you have any comments on that? Nobody is attacking corrections - there's no need to defend them.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Great posts by Elaine and Achiellies - I totally agree with teaching the recall separately from the stay, and to get the stay solid first before putting the two together.


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