# So I signed up for a training class.



## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

I have a few issues with my rescue girls that I just can't deal with alone, I need other people and dogs in a controlled environment.

So I started looking for training classes near me. I found one close by. The guy has been training for about 11 years and runs his own outfit. The program is pay for unlimited group sessions, run 2-3 times a week at different locations and you get unlimited sessions for the life of your dog, and 5 private sessions included.

The guy has competed on a champion flyball team, and it looks pretty good going in.

So last night I brought the girls there, and attended a free first session. First thing was putting a prong collar on Hope and Kaya, and then a platform comes out for each dog, and each is made to sit on the platform, lured up with a treat if need be.

Then one by one dog and handler do an exercise and then back on the platform. Heeling and door manners were last night, as it was cold and we were inside, followed by outside heeling as a group. Apparently the training is to be done mostly off leash, the goal to gain complete off leash control of your dog.

This is done through working with the prong collar, and a remote collar which he provides for a deposit, which he pays back when it's no longer needed and he gets the collar back. He does not want people using another brand or make of collar either prong or e-collar than what he provides.

Seems to be humane so far, but I have never used a prong, much less a remote collar. I have only ever used a flat collar, and always trained my dogs off leash, which I cannot do with Hope and Kaya as I have no good place where it is legal to do so and safe for them.

He says he will train without these tools, just that it will take a lot longer. Funny as well, seems one of the distractions we'll be training with is an occasional Coyote that shows up to watch.

I have to say Hope lunged to get to a couple of other dogs last night, and she figured out the prong collar real fast, and did not do so again. Though after class she was as amped up as I ever seen her if not more.

So how many here have done professional training with a prong and E-collar? Anything I should watch out for? Any success stories? Disaster stories?


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## pinkanml (Sep 3, 2007)

A prong or E-collar (or ANY training tool, for that matter) is only as great or as terrible for training a dog as the person holding the leash/remote. 

You can have a wonderfully trained, happy dog with a prong and E-collar, or you can ruin your relationship with him/her if you have a trainer who doesn't know what they're doing. It really all depends on the handler/trainer. 

You use all the same concepts as any other kind of training--show the dog what behavior you want, reward when appropriate, and once the command is known, FAIR corrections for willful disobedience. 

Your dog should never yelp or look frightened from an E-collar stim or prong correction (except maybe once if startled), that means it's too high/strong. Just enough to grab their attention and get them to look to you for direction. Don't let anyone give your dog a prong or E-collar correction unless you KNOW they won't be hurting your dog.

Good luck with the class. If the guy knows what he is doing, you will be very happy with the result and have a happy dog as well.


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

pinkanml said:


> A prong or E-collar (or ANY training tool, for that matter) is only as great or as terrible for training a dog as the person holding the leash/remote.
> 
> You can have a wonderfully trained, happy dog with a prong and E-collar, or you can ruin your relationship with him/her if you have a trainer who doesn't know what they're doing. It really all depends on the handler/trainer.
> 
> ...


Thanks, she already yelped from the prong, she lunged against it twice like she would a flat collar and got the point real quick and hasn't done it again. I haven't seen anything I would call a correction, more letting the dog self correct. But it was only the first night. She didn't appear frightened, just surprised.

As for the e-collar, being who I am it'll go on my neck to try it before it goes on theirs.

I think I'll update this as we go along.


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## Skye'sMom (Jul 11, 2004)

There are all types of trainers and certainly all types of tools. I have used many styles of collars over the years.

I have never started with the same one for every dog I have trained.

A red flag and one concern is automatically assigning the prong or e collar. So what if it might take longer with different collars?

What type of behavior are you experiencing that you need to immediately use those? 

I haven't had my prong out in almost 15 years except to demo it for people who want to see how it works. I have never used a choke collar and will not. Instead I would use the martingale limited slip style.

My second concern is off lead training before your dog is proofed on what is wanted on lead. Give a dog enough chances to make mistakes and he will. Why not start by setting your dog up for success?


Please continue to post and let us know how this goes. Good luck to you and your dog.


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

Skye'sMom said:


> There are all types of trainers and certainly all types of tools. I have used many styles of collars over the years.
> 
> I have never started with the same one for every dog I have trained.
> 
> ...


Well one problem I have had is that Hope gets pretty excited when she gets near other dogs. No aggression but she wants to go lick their face like a puppy and is quite driven. She will put all she has into a flat collar, lunge, whining with an occasional little howl and get vocal about it.

She can't drag me because I'm too big, and I don't want to yank her back too hard or I'll hurt her so I just hold her there like a tree as she struggles or reel her in slowly. Other than that she walks pretty good on a leash.

She did the lunging whining bit coming into the class right in front of the trainer... 

It's not something I have been able to work on walking her past dogs around the neighborhood, it's made it worse if anything. She knows all the dogs, loves them all, and their owners like to bring them up, and she gets reinforced in her lunging by always getting to meet them.

It's one of those things I need people and dogs in a controlled environment for.

She lunged twice after he put the prong on, then realized it was a bad idea, but she wasn't happy and got pretty frustrated at not being able to go meet the other dogs.

It's like she gets over her threshold when something like a dog or cat or squirrel gets within about 30-40 feet of her and she loses all self control.

My other girl Kaya doesn't need a prong, she never pulls on a flat collar. Never chases anything, never wants to meet other dogs or people, gives eye contact when I say her name while walking, she's easy.



> I haven't had my prong out in almost 15 years except to demo it for people who want to see how it works. I have never used a choke collar and will not. Instead I would use the martingale limited slip style.
> 
> My second concern is off lead training before your dog is proofed on what is wanted on lead. Give a dog enough chances to make mistakes and he will. Why not start by setting your dog up for success?
> 
> ...


I'm wondering about that as well, I've had her off lead out at my families place, her recall is decent but by no means bomb proof.

I'm hoping I can redirect the drive to me and to working for me. If I could she would be an amazing dog.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

I do all my training in my backyard off leash with a flat leather collar and no leash. There are a lot of distractions, too, since I have a corner lot and a picket fence. 

I did use a prong on my first dog 6 years ago. Dogs get collar-wise and they know that when they have a correction collar on, they better be good, then when it's off they go back to their old ways. 

Since you say you have issues with your rescues, used properly, both collars can be good tools.


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## Ucdcrush (Mar 22, 2004)

Adding on to what Blackpuppy said, they also know WHERE they can get away with stuff, so if you are going to use corrections, you'd want to be in a place where you can do that (i.e., not a positive only group class). It's my only regret about joining a positive class, that the distractions are incredibly high and I cannot correct disobedience there.


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## Skye'sMom (Jul 11, 2004)

We don't ignore disobedience in positive classes. We just make sure the behavior has first been correctly taught and then we use other means instead of collar corrections or pops.


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## sleachy (Aug 10, 2001)

I prefer to teach the desired behavior first using positive methods in an area with less activity and build up to more distractions. Only when the dog knows the behavior/command do I feel justified in correcting for disobedience.

In my experience, and like Bonnie said, disobedience in a "positive class" isn't ignored but just handled differently.


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## Ucdcrush (Mar 22, 2004)

how is disobedience handled in your experiences w/positive class?


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## marlettb (Feb 18, 2010)

My dog did the same behavior, really excited and wanting to meet the other dog really bad! Once I showed her who the alpha was, she shaped up. I put her on the ground on her side to calm down about 30 times and she pretty much stopped.



TxRider said:


> Well one problem I have had is that Hope gets pretty excited when she gets near other dogs. No aggression but she wants to go lick their face like a puppy and is quite driven. She will put all she has into a flat collar, lunge, whining with an occasional little howl and get vocal about it.
> 
> She can't drag me because I'm too big, and I don't want to yank her back too hard or I'll hurt her so I just hold her there like a tree as she struggles or reel her in slowly. Other than that she walks pretty good on a leash.
> 
> ...


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Skye'sMom said:


> We don't ignore disobedience in positive classes. We just make sure the behavior has first been correctly taught and then we use other means instead of collar corrections or pops.


 
What do you use/do? 

How do you make sure that it has been correctly taught?

As an example, what would you do if one dog lunged at another with bad intentions in class?


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## Skye'sMom (Jul 11, 2004)

First of all, in our beginning classes we make sure everyone has their space. Safety always.

How do make sure it is correctly taught? We use a lot of repetitions using praise (and treats for new behaviors) during class and review each week. We build foundations, help with focus and watch the team so we make suggestions based on their situation.
When a dog can do the behavior every time with no treats around (usually within a week) we know they understand the behavior.

Disobedience? We redirect the dog and give a command, remove them from the situation (eye contact with another dog for instance) and work on obedience, and we anticipate. Much disobedience is because we as handlers do not see our dogs beginning to react to something instead of focusing on us.


Lunging at other dogs? We teach our handlers to be aware of the triggers so they can react before the dog does. We reward the dog when it focuses on the handler instead of the other dog or whatever sets off the behavior. We catch the right second - dog looks at other dog, coming closer - glances at handlers - Yes! Click - reward. Repeat until stimulus is gone.

This is weeks of work - not an over night miracle. Dogs learn quickly what is rewarded and what is not. 

In some cases, if the dog has obedience and is reactive just to certain stimuli we suggest reactive dog class. In those classes relaxation techniques and focus are learned as well as what default behavior we want instead. 

For instance we have a dog in class now that learned in three weeks that when another dog walks nearby (still at a safe distance) he is to look at his handler, lie down and stay focused on her.

He is no longer barking and lunging. The handlers will build on this week by week.

Classes take weeks so these are quick synopsis of what is done. There is no way it can be cone in a few sentences.

The basics though are that we build up slowly and work at distances (from stimuli) when necessary. We do not use force and we become leaders because we are in charge of resources and we rule with fair hands - not because we are bigger or stronger.


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## krazy_kilum (Sep 20, 2001)

TxRider,

Check your PM.


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

Skye'sMom said:


> First of all, in our beginning classes we make sure everyone has their space. Safety always.
> 
> How do make sure it is correctly taught? We use a lot of repetitions using praise (and treats for new behaviors) during class and review each week. We build foundations, help with focus and watch the team so we make suggestions based on their situation.
> When a dog can do the behavior every time with no treats around (usually within a week) we know they understand the behavior.
> ...


The deal with Hope is she doesn't need eye contact, just being in the same room, or near by and she loses it.



> Lunging at other dogs? We teach our handlers to be aware of the triggers so they can react before the dog does. We reward the dog when it focuses on the handler instead of the other dog or whatever sets off the behavior. We catch the right second - dog looks at other dog, coming closer - glances at handlers - Yes! Click - reward. Repeat until stimulus is gone.


She reacts at any range she see the dog at. Be it a block and half away, it's target lock. She doesn't lunge until she is within 30 feet or so. There is no look at the handler, and if there was, no reward that I can find seems to have any value.



> This is weeks of work - not an over night miracle. Dogs learn quickly what is rewarded and what is not.


I've been trying different things for a year now, on two walks a day. I've had limited success, she is better than she used to be.



> In some cases, if the dog has obedience and is reactive just to certain stimuli we suggest reactive dog class. In those classes relaxation techniques and focus are learned as well as what default behavior we want instead.
> 
> For instance we have a dog in class now that learned in three weeks that when another dog walks nearby (still at a safe distance) he is to look at his handler, lie down and stay focused on her.
> 
> He is no longer barking and lunging. The handlers will build on this week by week.


This is what I need and want, for her to look at me for direction. She has a lot of drive, it's just not directed in a constructive direction.



> Classes take weeks so these are quick synopsis of what is done. There is no way it can be cone in a few sentences.
> 
> The basics though are that we build up slowly and work at distances (from stimuli) when necessary. We do not use force and we become leaders because we are in charge of resources and we rule with fair hands - not because we are bigger or stronger.


One thing I have noticed about the prong collar. In the one class and the daily walks for a couple of days, she knows now the decision to lunge or pull is not one she can make, and she seems calmer walking. But it seems it's building frustration and pent up energy that explodes as soon as she is free from the leash.

Like maybe the lunging was a way she releases her drive and energy and gets it out of her system.

I can't stop thinking she needs good hard physically exhausting daily job to do, and I have to find it and channel her drive into it. She's beginning to get that way with a ball and fetch, but she's not so motivated by fetching though it is steadily growing.

I have thought about maybe carting, or pulling me around on skates as well. One of the reasons I decided to try a trainer that has run top level competition flyball dogs, hoping he could help me direct her OCD nature into obedience and some kind of sport.


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

TxRider said:


> Like maybe the lunging was a way she releases her drive and energy and gets it out of her system.
> 
> I can't stop thinking she needs good hard physically exhausting daily job to do, and I have to find it and channel her drive into it. She's beginning to get that way with a ball and fetch, but she's not so motivated by fetching though it is steadily growing.
> 
> I have thought about maybe carting, or pulling me around on skates as well. One of the reasons I decided to try a trainer that has run top level competition flyball dogs, hoping he could help me direct her OCD nature into obedience and some kind of sport.


I think you may have hit the nail on the head here. When walking often results in these behaviors it is because they do have so much excess energy and lack of exposure, although some are more reactive to start with. Either way, when they get out, they are overexcited, and/or reactive. 
I think doing some kind of exercise before a walk will be beneficial even if it doesn't last that long. Also just doing some simple obedience for 15 minutes before a walk can take the edge off, and put a dog in a more focused state (if only for a moment!  ) 
I like doing "find" exercises. This takes focus, and a lot of energy for a dog. It is also very rewarding. Lastly, it doesn't take a huge area, extra equipment etc., and can be easily done before an outing.
As for the ball drive, it sounds like you are working on building it. That is awesome! I am a big fan of removing all toys when trying to build drive, and one of the most important thing to remember, is to stop before they lose interest and leave them wanting more.

As for the positive vs. prong/ecollar, some dogs are not interested in you or your reward. This is not the majority, but I have worked with a few. This is where being balanced and educated/experienced in various types of conditioning is necessary as a trainer. The first dog to teach me this was a foxhound, ah yes, those lovely hounds


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## Skye'sMom (Jul 11, 2004)

Yes - a good high energy would be great. I can tell you have your dog's best interests at heart as well as yours or you would not be posting.

Also - for the person who mentioned prong vs positive - you have not read in any of my posts that I shun prong collars. I just questioned that collar being the trainers first choice. Any trainer who chooses a set collar or set training concerns me. That is why it is so important as I posted previously for us to be watching every team and helping them based on where they are at that point.

I 'shun' only one style - and that would be whatever you want to label a style that allows slamming a dog to the ground or doing 15 or 20 roll overs and calling it trained. That's not trained - it's cowed. 

It sounds like that is working for you and that is great - you have to get your dog's attention so you can work with them.

And about the dog not liking any rewards? You may have just not found the right one. For my sister's aussie it is her tug or her ball. She lives for that reward.

I never intended by my responses to make this a positive vs prong issue. Positive vs traditional - maybe.

I was answering specific questions asked of me about what I do.

I hope the OP finds the best methods for his dog - sounds like the job is a good step toward it.

By the way, Mt Aussie - my most stubborn subject was my own found german short haired pointer. She had about 3 years bad years before I found her starving along the road - it took not just months, but years to help her learn the world was good. We got there!


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

Skye'sMom,

The foxhound I worked with is still in a rescue. He is an interesting case. He has extreme anxiety, which contributes to his disinterest in rewards. The one thing that he does love is getting into a car. This is the only way to catch him (he will escape from anywhere, a crate, fence, room, etc. even while you are there with him) He actually probes any fence that he is in going along the fence line, and will squeeze through an impossibly small opening. From there he runs. He does not respond to food, toys, commands etc. Only a car. He has been to many fosters, to say the least, including a doggy daycare, and was adopted but that didn't last long. He will destroy any crate, and injure himself, and if he locked in a room he will dig through the door and floor to get out (as many have discovered). I had him for a while and left him out in the house, but he somehow got himself stuck in the bathroom and destroyed the door.(that is when my husband said it was him or the dog)
He also does not go to the bathroom until he is left alone in the house or if he is off leash in a yard. I did not have a problem with that because of my yard, but it has been extremely difficult to place him because of this, obviously. He was returned from his adopters because he wouldn't go on leash, and would defecate in either an empty room or when they left. He also has no interest in other dogs. 
He escaped from one of the fosters (actually he has escaped from EVERY foster, and there has been a few) and she had a sheriff helping her to catch him. When the sheriff got close enough, he jumped through the driver's side window right onto the sheriff!! LOL.
So I would say as with your german pointer, it would probably take years for him as well, although I don't think he will have that opportunity to be in the right environment with the right person. In this case I think an e collar may be beneficial and even life saving. But that has not been attempted as of right now. 

(sorry to high jack the thread here)


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Now I am not an expert behaviorist or anything, but I have never found a prong to be useful for dog reactivity. 

If anything I have found that the prong increases reactivity in that kind of situation. Prong collars have always increased the drive in my dog, never taken it away. If I wanted to take drive out of my dog with a correction I usually went to an E-collar or a nylon slip collar as they tended not to ramp my dog up. Of the types of training collars I have seen most often used for dog reactivity, the nylon slip lead was the most used and the most successful.


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

MTAussie said:


> I think doing some kind of exercise before a walk will be beneficial even if it doesn't last that long. Also just doing some simple obedience for 15 minutes before a walk can take the edge off, and put a dog in a more focused state (if only for a moment!  )


This doesn't help much. She goes insane when she knows she's going for a walk no matter what, I have tried so much, for about a year, no effect.



> I like doing "find" exercises. This takes focus, and a lot of energy for a dog. It is also very rewarding. Lastly, it doesn't take a huge area, extra equipment etc., and can be easily done before an outing.
> As for the ball drive, it sounds like you are working on building it. That is awesome! I am a big fan of removing all toys when trying to build drive, and one of the most important thing to remember, is to stop before they lose interest and leave them wanting more.


Her latest game is find it. I have her stay and walk through every room in the house with a tennis ball, and hide it somewhere along the way.. And then have her find it. She's quite driven and will go for quite some time, rarely giving up or need help. I escalate the difficulty of the hiding spots as I go.



> As for the positive vs. prong/ecollar, some dogs are not interested in you or your reward. This is not the majority, but I have worked with a few. This is where being balanced and educated/experienced in various types of conditioning is necessary as a trainer. The first dog to teach me this was a foxhound, ah yes, those lovely hounds


She is interested in me, or rather she wants me close. If I just drop her leash while walking and stop she changes from ignoring me totally to immediately running back to me for me to pick the leash up as soon as she realizes it. Then she's right back at the end of the leash again... 

I tried standing still until she came and sat and looked at me and rewarding it with a meat treat then taking a step and stopping as soon as she walks ahead of a heel position. For weeks we never got more than a block from the house, as I had to stand in place for 5-10 minutes every few steps before she would even look at me.

What that got me is now if I stop, she will break focus on going ahead or target scanning or another dog and circle back with a whine to heel position to get me moving again, then right back to her focusing on whatever it is.


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

The tree method can be pretty frustrating. I like changing direction and doing figure 8's, especially with the dog to the inside of the turn, that way they start looking up at me, and I can somewhat block them as I take steps forward. 
I am working with a greyhound mix that has a low threshold also, and has a lot of what sounds to be the same behaviors. Other dogs and squirrels are her objects of fixation. She becomes overly excited or reactive with other dogs on the leash also, pulling, cementing herself and staring etc. 

I just change directions and then start doing figure 8's. Once she catches up with me and gives me eye contact I will reward her. She has made a lot of progress thanks to tons of walks, exposure to dogs off leash, and a lot of time spent on building her focus and eye contact. 

It sounds like you should be able to get her to build her focus, especially if she does come back to you.

I would say you could do a lot of desensitization to the leash as well. This way she isn't thinking that you are going for a walk every time you pick it up or take her outside. Additionally, use other methods of exercise as much as possible, like your find games, and use your walks as training sessions. It is really important not to focus on the length or distance of the walk, or you will end up just letting her pull to get anywhere. 

If you end up looking like a crazy person walking back and forth and around in circles, but that's how you know you are doing it right  Teach her to heel, there are various methods of doing this. I am not sure if you have already started or not, but inside your house is a good way to start. Then fence lines, walls, etc. can be helpful sometimes as well. I know there have been some outstanding posts on this in the past, maybe someone can dig a good one up here for you!


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

ps. not sure if you are familiar with clicker training, but it is extremely useful in this situation. Especially with building a focus/watch me command.


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

MTAussie said:


> The tree method can be pretty frustrating. I like changing direction and doing figure 8's, especially with the dog to the inside of the turn, that way they start looking up at me, and I can somewhat block them as I take steps forward.
> I am working with a greyhound mix that has a low threshold also, and has a lot of what sounds to be the same behaviors. Other dogs and squirrels are her objects of fixation. She becomes overly excited or reactive with other dogs on the leash also, pulling, cementing herself and staring etc.
> 
> I just change directions and then start doing figure 8's. Once she catches up with me and gives me eye contact I will reward her. She has made a lot of progress thanks to tons of walks, exposure to dogs off leash, and a lot of time spent on building her focus and eye contact.


I have done miles of figure 8's and S turns, with very limited results.



> It sounds like you should be able to get her to build her focus, especially if she does come back to you.
> 
> I would say you could do a lot of desensitization to the leash as well. This way she isn't thinking that you are going for a walk every time you pick it up or take her outside. Additionally, use other methods of exercise as much as possible, like your find games, and use your walks as training sessions. It is really important not to focus on the length or distance of the walk, or you will end up just letting her pull to get anywhere.
> 
> If you end up looking like a crazy person walking back and forth and around in circles, but that's how you know you are doing it right  Teach her to heel, there are various methods of doing this. I am not sure if you have already started or not, but inside your house is a good way to start. Then fence lines, walls, etc. can be helpful sometimes as well. I know there have been some outstanding posts on this in the past, maybe someone can dig a good one up here for you!


The most I have been able to accomplish is her realizing to get me going when I stop she has give me attention and to be in heel position. When I stop now, she will eventually break focus on whatever it is going on in her head, whine loudly, and circle back to a heel position to get me going again, then in 3 steps she zones back out on me again and rushes out to the end of the leash, until I stop again, and she can tear her mind away from whatever it's focused on and wash rise repeat this cycle every three or four steps for weeks.

I don't think she realizes that I want her to stay in that heel position, or exactly what a heel position is. A definite communication issue there and I have never been good at teaching a heel.

If I walk really slow, like 110 year old man in a walker slow, she does much better and paces with me and stays pretty much by my side.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I've never been very good at teaching heel either, I think it's one of the hardest things to train! Halo now is really good at loose leash walking, and has a pretty good heel too, but we've literally walked at least 200 miles in the last 8 months, all of them training walks with treats and a clicker. It took a LONG time, but she's made so much progress. For a long time it seemed like we were doing okay but were pretty much stuck, and then suddenly she started offering me this nice heel, often with attention but it took a lot of patience and persistence to get there.

Every time she looks at me on leash, I click and treat. Every time she's in perfect heel position, I click and treat. I say her name and if she turns her head, I click and treat. I actually use enthusiastic praise a lot of the time now, but initially I was rewarding constantly. In addition, from the time I got her as a puppy I was marking and rewarding her for spontaneous attention around the house, so when we hit the road into more distracting circumstances, we already had a good foundation of attention and focus. I'd have her sit next to me, we'd take a step or two forward, then I'd stop and ask for a sit again. Over and over and over, practicing the beginning and the end of a heel, then adding steps in the middle - 3 steps, then 5 steps, etc. We did this at home first, working up to walks around the neighborhood. 

I did a lot of backing up when she got ahead of me, pulling her back gently with me, marking and rewarding when she turned and started moving towards me, and then I'd pivot and go the opposite direction so she was slightly behind me and had to catch up. I'd mark and reward when she was in position. I'd also back up and pull her gently towards me and then walk briskly forward so I was bumping her front end around by walking into her and we ended up both going in the same direction as before instead of turning around. This is hard to explain in words, I hope that makes sense. She basically got penalty yards for going out in front rather than walking next to me. I started saying "turn" right before I bumped into her, and after a little while she started turning on her own as soon as I gave the command. Now I use the command all the time if I want her to make a left turn or left about face. 

For right turns I'd stick a treat in front of her nose and lure her around, then mark and reward. I practiced standing in one place and pivoting a 1/4 turn at a time in each direction, then a 1/2 turn. We did tons of this at home before I ever tried it outdoors. We worked on an automatic sit whenever I stopped, I taught her to get into heel position from a front, (luring with a treat) and we'd go back and forth between both positions several times in a row, several times on each walk. 

It's been a huge amount of work, but she's the best dog on leash I've ever had. Which is good because I've never spent anywhere near that much time working on leash skills with a dog before!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Oh, and I should mention that as good as she is on leash, if Keefer is there she's horrid, and when we're walking from the car to the offleash park, she's horrid too - she shrieks and tries to jump up and down on his head. :headbang: But when it's just the two of us on a walk together she's great.


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

*Ditto*



Cassidy's Mom said:


> I've never been very good at teaching heel either, I think it's one of the hardest things to train! Halo now is really good at loose leash walking, and has a pretty good heel too, but we've literally walked at least 200 miles in the last 8 months, all of them training walks with treats and a clicker. It took a LONG time, but she's made so much progress. For a long time it seemed like we were doing okay but were pretty much stuck, and then suddenly she started offering me this nice heel, often with attention but it took a lot of patience and persistence to get there.
> 
> Every time she looks at me on leash, I click and treat. Every time she's in perfect heel position, I click and treat. I say her name and if she turns her head, I click and treat. I actually use enthusiastic praise a lot of the time now, but initially I was rewarding constantly. In addition, from the time I got her as a puppy I was marking and rewarding her for spontaneous attention around the house, so when we hit the road into more distracting circumstances, we already had a good foundation of attention and focus. I'd have her sit next to me, we'd take a step or two forward, then I'd stop and ask for a sit again. Over and over and over, practicing the beginning and the end of a heel, then adding steps in the middle - 3 steps, then 5 steps, etc. We did this at home first, working up to walks around the neighborhood.
> 
> ...


:thumbup:

I also like the 80% rule. If you can get a behavior AT LEAST 8 out of 10 consecutive tries, then move on to the next level. If you can't get her to focus inside the house, then obviously she isn't going to be able to outside. You could try right now and ask her 10 times to sit and see how proficient she is. If you are getting less than 80% you might have to take a step back in training to get her caught up again. Missing connections and communication by moving too quickly can cost you more time in the long run in comparison to taking a little more time to make sure she is solid before taking it up a notch.


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## Ucdcrush (Mar 22, 2004)

I have only been able to stop reactivity ONCE using a prong collar, and that was when I yanked the **** out of it with 2 hands. The dog yelped and his demeanor changed of course; but I didn't feel like continuing that type of thing.

With my dog-reactive dog Riku I have found a Halti (like Gentle Leader) to be the best tool I've found. It is many times easier to control him, and if we see a dog in the distance, when he starts to fixate, I turn directly into him, go the opposite direction, and use the Halti to pull his head to where he's not looking back at the dog-- which he would do on any other type of collar where he could control what he sees even if he's turned all the way around. We can do many of those circle-walks so by the time the other dog passes us, where we're still doing circles so he can't fixate, he is not nearly as charged up as if we had gone straight forward.. and he doesn't react loudly or with lunging.

I joined a regular group obedience class with him (not one for reactive dogs) and he was stressed a bit, but not aggressive and only barked a few times, at the smallest dog, a JRT. In the class, I again used the Halti but I practiced walking directly towards dogs with him by my side, then walking straight backwards, which would pull his head around and he would come with me at which point I would mark and treat (in other words, when he turned to come with me, he'd be facing me as I walked backwards). Doing this, we were able to get very close to a dog that he had been reactive to (the JRT) and each time, without any reaction and no fixation, and he'd be more willing to come with me as I backed away. It was very cool to see him improve that way in that exercise.

So if the other dogs are stationary, as they were in my class, I'd praise and/or treat for turning away, and gradually go closer, and continually back up and make him turn away.

If other dogs are approaching, I'd recommend the circles with the Halti..


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

Second class tonight...

I only brought Hope this time, trying to deal with both dogs is too much for me right now.

I was going to ask about the e-collar, but forgot to and it wasn't mentioned. I did notice several dogs wearing them though I never could tell if they were being used.

We started with the dogs on platforms, making them stay. Then walking around them, then walking around other people's dogs, then leaving the room.

Then we worked on eye contact for attention, and each person walked their dog around the others on their platform, followed by some outdoor heeling exercises.

All in all very good for Hope, just the kind of self control around other dogs that he needs.

The trainer used Hope for the eye contact attention demo, and he sure gets better eye contact than I do, I need to figure out why that is.

I also noticed the people who have been there longest, and one that was working his dog totally off leash, a boxer, even heeling it slalom through the dogs on platforms. When I did that with hope on a leash she had to lick every dogs face she could. He was also working with another dog, fear aggressive to people and muzzled.

Hope only hit the prong collar once, and she didn't seem nearly as jazzed up after class as she was last week.


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

Third class, didn't mention that there are classes Tue-Sat, I can attend as many as I want for as long as I want for the life of my dogs. Kind of a nice deal.

I just brought Kaya tonight, she is fearful and anxious. We did a lot of exercises that pushed her limits. She growled at a couple of dogs, she's on the very edge of being fear aggressive, but no bites.

She has made progress in the few months I have had her, though 2 of the 4 has been crate rest for heartworm treatment.

She did a stay on the platform tonight for almost 5 minutes, I was shocked.

They do a great job working with her fear and anxiety, reinforcing her often and I think it is going to do a lot of good for Kaya in getting her confidence level up, though the couple of aggressive dogs there were freaking her out when they threw fits here and there.

Tonight's class was a different location, all outdoors, and a lot of the dogs were off leash. I was also given two platforms to take home to use for practice.

It seems the e-collars are only used in combination with the 5 private sessions that come with the cost of the class. I think I'll wait a bit to talk about that with the trainer until I get little clearer on what I want to work on in private session.


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

Daytime class today, in yet another outdoor location.

The trainer likes to do all the classes in real world environments, parks with people and dogs, and today ducks and squirrels, and he uses the few aggressive dogs in class as both distractions for the dogs, and to help work with them on their issues.

Seems a lot more people who have been using him longer, and are more advanced come on the Saturday morning class.

Most of the dogs started off leash, most had on e-collars.

Hope was very frustrated being on leash, and not able to go meet other dogs, almost none of which came near her even off leash. She was whining, howling a little and pawing great gobs of grass with all fours, stretching etc. to relieve stress and energy.

Lots of dogs, probably 20 or so. The trainer did take notice of Hope's prey drive getting amped up over the ducks, and took her from me as we were heeling around the park and walked her towards them evaluating her. 

I think he is getting good picture of her behavior, my shortcomings handling her, and I expect to use my private sessions in a few weeks when he has had more time to get to know her better.

I'm pretty happy so far, and not worried about the remote collar any more, as I see nothing negative about it in this large group of dogs using them. My only issue now is my ability to have god enough judgment and timing in the use of one if I do end up using one.

The class has prompted me to step up on my training, clarified my immediate goals and exercises and has been a pretty good experience so far.


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

New update.

I still haven't asked about the e-collar, the trainers has been having problems with his van and some other things and has been pretty rushed, and there has been another dog aggressive dog he's been dealing with in class.

We have mostly been working on heeling and sit stays with distractions.

I missed today's morning class, I've caught a cold and I am a coughing and sneezing pile of goo all day today, feeling rotten.

Thursday's class I slipped up paying attention and Hope got bitten. I wasn't watching close enough and her leash was long enough to get to a weim in class that is reactive, and bites when a dog gets too close.

Hope did her usual puppy calming act of going up to it and licking it's muzzle, and it grabbed her whole nose and wouldn't let go. She was yelping quite loud and it held on for a bit but no fighting when it let go. No serious damage, just teeth mark across her snout.

Didn't really seem to phase her much, she was right back at it licking strange dogs in the face after class. I've been wondering how long it would be before that habit got her nose bitten, just wasn't expecting one that hard or a bite and hold like that. She doesn't seem too keen on percieving other dogs signals very well, not that the weim gave her much before latching on to her face.


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

Well I have thought about it and after all the work trying to get Hope to pay attention outside I decided to go ahead and try the e-collar with the trainer I'm using.

Almost all the dogs that the owners handle offleash seem to use one. The trainer seems to use them in a way that doesn't inflict pain, I really cannot even tell when the people are activating them and when they are not or even if they are and I'm pretty observant. I only notice it occasionally.

I guess I'm moving to the line of thinking that if I can't get her to want to pay attention and obey because she wants to, I'll settle for getting her to pay attention and obey because she has to, and then once she is actually paying attention and obeying I can reward consistently and praise religiously and try to convert her to wanting to. Right now it's impossible to prasie or reward if I cannot get her to do what I want to reward.

Does that make sense?

I have little doubt it will improve her response, likely a lot easier and faster than I expect. Hope constantly exceeds my expectations when it comes to intelligence and surprises me often.



As for Kaya, she'll go on it as well. Though she doesn't really need it IMO, and I'll have to watch her reaction to it very closely. She is a very soft timid and fearful dog.

She tends to either get used to something new after a little time, or it scares her and she shuts down hard. Once she shuts down over exposure to something any exposure afterwards sends her straight to a trembling shut down state incapable of anything. 

She's a tricky one to deal with because you can't really predict what will have that drastic effect and what won't, and you only get one shot at initial exposure with her. No amount of force regardless of how small or large works with her, shutting down is almost always the result. Though luring works like gangbusters and sends her so over the top in enthusiasm she can't learn in that state either. Praise alone seems to be her best reward.

I think if I can get her solid on obedience enough to start her into some type of sport and widen her knowledge of commands, tricks and behaviors she can be confident in doing and being rewarded for, And an outlet she can get physical and confident in she would bloom into an awesome dog.


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

Well it's been about a week on the e-collars.

The trainer introduced them, and set the levels.

Hope is on 3, Kaya on 1.5 out of ten. I put the collars on my neck and tried them.

Each controller has 3 buttons, low, med and high.

Kaya's collar was like a fly landing on my neck, even the #3 button was not much more.

Hopes was more like a lizard jumped on my neckat #1, and #3 button actually felt like a small shock, and made my arm twitch. It felt like one of those TENS units for physical therapy, not painful but definately would get one's attention more like a slap on the back vs a touch on the shoulder.

The method used is to only use the button #1, which emits a very short fraction of a second pulse, and to do it at the same time as a command, every single time. And to also praise praise praise the instant they turn their head to you and start coming, or start performing the command.

He also has me using a ~25 foot flexi lead to walk them, as it's closer to being off leash with more freedom and less attached feeling from the dogs perception than a 6ft leash.

I have to say it's certainly doing the trick of breaking Hopes focus on what she distracted on and getting her attention.

Hope has recently put together the last years many methods employed to curb pulling and lunging and to gain attention from her as well as how to heel and is getting the whole concept together now so the timing for this ecollar experiment has seemed to turn out very well.

My walk this morning was about the most pleasant I have ever had with her. Instead of ignoring, I get attention every time I call her, when I see a car coming she was in heel before it got there, no pulling, no lunging, she even passed some dogs and was able to remain in heel with a few repititions of the command the instant she started to lose focus and even got past a squirrel in heel pretty well.

I was quite happy, and she was as well. She gets more freedom, more reward and praise, and I'm frustration free and she seems to be moreso as well. I've seen no real negative from the e-collar yet, and it is helping with Hope.

The 100% outdoor classes, with distractions from joggers, to kids, to dogs and squirrels etc. in a semi controlled environemt seem to be paying off as well. Which is what I really was after, a good place with controlled distractions to work with her in.

Within a week or two I think I'll likely be working her without a leash on her as a backup in class. I'm quite happy with her progress, and it's encouraging after running into the wall of her not paying attention outside. I can see the behavior and relationship I want with her forming now and light at the end of the tunnel.

Then she'll get the reward side, herding, agility, whatever she's good at and wants to do once she is solid on recall and heel under most any distraction.

Kaya on the other hand I really can't tell if she even feels the collar, or is just responding normally. I don't think I need the collar for her, as she's already very handler oriented, and if she doesn't obey it's usually because she just doesn't understand what I want, or is too stressed and over threshold to think and process the command.

She is behind Hope on understanding heel and other concepts, but more willing to please me. I could train her to do most anything without a class. For her the class is more to desensitize her to other dogs and people as she is very wary and skittish. Again not something I'm sure an e-collar will help with, but we'll see.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Thanks for the updates...


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Skye'sMom said:


> We don't ignore disobedience in positive classes. We just make sure the behavior has first been correctly taught and then we use other means instead of collar corrections or pops.


How do you "make sure the behavior has first been correctly taught"? 

Wouldn't the only proof of this be that the dog obeys?

Also, what "other means" are you refering to?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Skye'sMom said:


> First of all, in our beginning classes we make sure everyone has their space. Safety always. *Good thought!* *I am curious as to how much space is enough? Also, do you attempt to do the traditional group sit/down stays? If so, how far apart do you keep the dogs?*
> 
> How do make sure it is correctly taught? We use a lot of repetitions using praise (and treats for new behaviors) during class and review each week. *We build foundations, help with focus *and watch the team so we make suggestions based on their situation. *I am sorry but I do not really know what you are talking about with the above bolded phrases - could you be more specific, maybe with a concrete example.*
> 
> ...


*It sounds almost like with every problem/bad behavior that I mentioned that it comes down to moving the dog away or eliminating the temptation. That is, instead of addressing the problem, i.e. lunging at another dog, simply don't let the dog do it. *

*But, maybe you can tell me what you would do with a dog whose handler is not good enough or attentive enough or quick enough and their dog actually does lunge at another dog. Do you ignore this lunge and just walk the dog away? Please let me know in this case what immediate action the handler should do - I realize that you will not yell at the dog or worse, pull on their leash. So I am curious as to what the handler should do in this particular instance?*

*Thanks.*


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I thought of this when reading this thread this morning. Everyone keeps saying "don't trust a trainer who uses one solution" such as this trainer with e-collars. 
But, this trainer is known for his ability to work with that device. Isn't it more likely that his class is full of people who have already TRIED other methods (usually with other trainers/classes) and went to him FOR an e-collar? 

So, if you walked into the door, you would see a group of dogs, majority of whom are on an e-collar. It would be like walking into a puppy class and assuming that the trainer couldn't/wouldn't teach an older dog because all you saw were puppies!


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

Dainerra said:


> I thought of this when reading this thread this morning. Everyone keeps saying "don't trust a trainer who uses one solution" such as this trainer with e-collars.
> But, this trainer is known for his ability to work with that device. Isn't it more likely that his class is full of people who have already TRIED other methods (usually with other trainers/classes) and went to him FOR an e-collar?
> 
> So, if you walked into the door, you would see a group of dogs, majority of whom are on an e-collar. It would be like walking into a puppy class and assuming that the trainer couldn't/wouldn't teach an older dog because all you saw were puppies!


He is mainly just training through positive reinforcement in the form of treats only when really needed, and tons of well timed praise.

He does not insist you use an ecollar, he just says it proofs behavior under distraction faster if used correctly, consistently, and the behavior is reinforced with a lot of properly timed reward in the form of a treat or praise.

The whole class is basically for taking dogs who already know recall, sit/down/stay etc. and building reliability under distraction in as many distracting locations as possible. The ecollar seems more of a tap on the shoulder to break focus on a distraction and get attention at any distance.

Unless we are doing a heeling exercise, or things like not bolting through gate, I spend most of the time 10 feet or more away from my dog. Recall through a group of other dogs, sit stays around other dogs and kids even with me out of sight and such.

It appears most of the new people coming are not specifically going there for ecollar training, or basic obedience, but for help with dogs that they have not been able to figure out how to get them to behave outside walking or off a leash and have a variety of issues from fear, to aggression, to hyper friendly to just overwhelmingly distracted and want help with it.

Hope is both hyper friendly, and overwhelmed by distractions. I guess likely from being locked in a cage her first three years as a breeding dog and never experiencing the world at large. Either that or she just lacks any self control, hard to tell which except her reactions to things like the grass yard when I brought her home, her first deer, her first cow,etc., but working her in this environment 4 nights a week is helping, as is the ecollar tap on the shoulder to get her attention.

My other dog is a whole different story, she's was a stray and would almost just as soon never leave the house or back yard I don't think. She is skittish, hyper aware of her environment and very cautious to the point of some phobias and trusts nobody, not even me completely after 6 months of having her here. 

Hope will rush out back any and every time I do, Kaya will lay there even when asked to come out and look at you like "huh?" Why would I want go out there?

If I have a treat Hope trusts me that anything I toss is going to be worth catching. With Kaya unless she has smelled it first she just lets it bounce of her nose and hit the floor for her inspection first.


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

First e-collar negative...

If you use one, pay close attention to all the settings every time you use it.

I didn't at class tonight, and through my error, and my trainers error possibly, Hope got a force 10 blast or two of the collar.

She did not approve, and it shut her down for the night at class. As the collar is connected to my commands, simultaneous, she correctly associated me giving a command to it, and reacted to me accordingly.

It also was connected in her mind only to the sit and down verbal commands (I could tell because her reaction to the hand signals by themselves didn't change) as well as the place it happened.

I'm very lucky she is a very resilient dog, and it seems no permanent harm to her emotionally, and she is pretty much over it with a little extra work and rewards. Had it happened to Kaya I think it would be quite another story.

I do have to believe it would stop say, cat chasing, from her reaction if used with good timing a couple of times.

Anyway, she is still improving daily in obedience, heeling etc. and things are improving. She is seemingly calmer now going by cats and squirrels and is almost doing an automatic heel when she sees one due to me always calling her to heel when she spots one and drops into a hard eyed stalk mode.

I'm even noticing a good improvement with Kaya now, and I am seeing the effect of the e-collar vs what I would expect without it with her now as well.

I must say it is exceeding my expectations. Partly due to the classess upping my level of effort at home, party because the extra tap on the shoulder seems to be quite effective.

I had one other setback, The trainer has one walking them on flexis to sumulate more off leash type decision making on their part. With two dogs, two flexis, two radios, and poop bags it's too much to handle.

I had to set things down, including their leashes the other day, to pick up some poop, and a cat walked out behind me and they broke their stay and I believe would have killed it if I hadn't been right on top of them physically saving the cat.

I had never let Hope near a cat before, and didn't plan to, and wondered if she really would kill one, or just chase it. I don't wonder as much now, what I saw says yes she will, I give it a 90%+ chance now.


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## crs996 (Sep 19, 2001)

codmaster said:


> *It sounds almost like with every problem/bad behavior that I mentioned that it comes down to moving the dog away or eliminating the temptation. That is, instead of addressing the problem, i.e. lunging at another dog, simply don't let the dog do it. *
> 
> *But, maybe you can tell me what you would do with a dog whose handler is not good enough or attentive enough or quick enough and their dog actually does lunge at another dog. Do you ignore this lunge and just walk the dog away? Please let me know in this case what immediate action the handler should do - I realize that you will not yell at the dog or worse, pull on their leash. So I am curious as to what the handler should do in this particular instance?*
> 
> *Thanks.*



This description of positive training Skye gives seems pretty vague. I tried to imagine these methods being used in the basic OB class I took recently which had several reactive, dog and human aggressive rescue Rotts, Pits and GSD's replete with muzzles. It would have been a bloodbath, especially because as codmaster points out, most of the people there were not even able to make their dog sit, let alone have a sense of observation and timing. The positive training described may work for a class of relatively mellow dogs, but I still don't see the advantage.

Training was done with prong and e-collars and by week 3 of 6, no more muzzles. The dogs were respecting one another's space, not trading "fight" glances and actually learning rapidly. Several are now in the intermediate class, giving focus and going off leash.


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## crs996 (Sep 19, 2001)

TxRider said:


> Almost all the dogs that the owners handle offleash seem to use one. The trainer seems to use them in a way that doesn't inflict pain, I really cannot even tell when the people are activating them and when they are not or even if they are and I'm pretty observant. I only notice it occasionally.


And this is how it should be with an e-collar, so contrary to the shouts of electrocution, frying, etc. used by those who don't understand their use.


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

I would just add, as it wasn't clear enough on another forum I post on how this method of using an e-collar works in more detail.

It's like a tap on the shoulder, given simultaneously with a command. I say sit and push the button at the same time. It is not a correction, or meant as a punishment or aversive. It is meant simply to get the dogs attention.

The trainer when starting the dog on one, uses a long line, allows the dog to go get distracted on something, and slowly raises the level from nothing to just enough that the dog feels it and breaks focus on the distraction. At the instant it breaks focus and looks up to see what touched it, he praises and recalls the dog.

The collar works like this. Every time I press the button it gives a very light and very quick pulse of stim. It only lasts a few hundredths of a second. I can hold that button down all day, but it will only give one short pulse of a few hundredths of a second. Once every time I push it.

I tried it on my own neck, and it does feel like a touch. It's like I am reaching out with an invisible hand and touching the dog at the same instant I give a command.

The dog associates this touch with the command, as they happen always together, and with every command.

He is very clear that the collar needs to be used at all times for all basic obedience commands, and that prase and reward should instant and 100% consistent when the dog gives right behavior. That not doing one or the other will not get good result.

The premise I suppose is that after enough consistent use, with the dog giving attention at every command it become conditioned and the collar can be discontinued, like phasing out a lure.

And I must say it certainly has worked better than anything else I have tried over the last year with Hope. Although I can see all the work I have done in her behavior, and it's paying off, the e-collar getting her attention consistently even when a squirrel or cat is in sight is really making things come together very nicely.


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

I thought I woud post up a couple of videos.

Hope in November of last year...

First in this one all I want is a sit, and she knows exactly what I'm asking for. She wants to go forward, and protests and argues, then tries ignoring, until I make it clear she has to do it.





 
Then trying to go by a squirrel in tree, again she wants to go to the squirrel, and she knows I don't want her to. And she argues the point again.





 
And now 5 months of work later, using several methods which all had some effect if not enough, and ending up with an e-collar. She's on an unlocked flexi the whole time.


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

Hmm, at class last night I found I am still dealing with the fallout from the accidental high stims Hope got a couple of weeks ago.

I see some difference in her on normal walks when I say sit or down, like she's still anticipating that a big shock could come from any sit or down command, but just barely and she is getting better. At class she is still showing significant symptoms.

I hate that it happened, as with this method it's really the same as if I had told her sit and down and hit her with my hand very hard at the same time. There is going to be some permanent or at least long lasting effect just as if I had hit her very hard, I just have to work to minimize it.

I am wondering if the difference is because we are at class (class last night was at a different location than where the shock happened) or whether it was the group heeling exercise (what we were doing when it happened), or whether it is the 6ft leash (she was wearing when it happened) as I have not used that leash at home and used the flexi exclusively instead, and the 6ft leash only at class.

I let her off leash at class, and it didn't seem to make much difference.

I'm going to have to think about more ways to help Hope realize there will be no big shocks coming and get over it. Or maybe start using new commands for sit and down.

I also read a bit over at Lou Castle's site, and the methods he uses are similar but significantly different from what my trainer is doing. I am wondering since very strong crittering is really the only big issue Hope has, if the anti crittering method he has on his site is something I may want to try.

As it is now she still very much wants to go chase, very strong desire, but she has enough self control to remain in heel if I tell her to. It would actually be better in the long run if she just ignored critters like Kaya does, but I don't know if that's possible, or if I want to try to make it happen with the ecollar, or try positive methods and time now that she has enough control not to lunge or chase if I tell her to heel even off leash.


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

Today's class was nice.

The location was a town square, really a huge outdoor mall. The exercise was mainly heeling around the place, up and down stairs, past open shop doors with music playing, in and around inside the Apple store.

I took Hope out of the truck off leash, and handled her off leash until it was time to start class.

She did very well. She would almost have done it all off leash very well except a couple of distractions. She got many comments on how calm and well behaved she is.

The ecollar is working awesome with her, basically just what I needed, and paired with the class aimed at distractions it's doing wonders.

She is at the point where she will heel right up to another dog and owner, and not greet until I release her. Before this class she would have been lunging and pulling to get to the dog, once we got within about 20 feet.

After class we went to the three dog bakery, but the bones were baked, and the store was small and most of the treats and the food had grain in it. Someone with about a 15 lb little dog came up to greet Hope, the little dog lunged and snapped a Hope, and did it a few more times later. Hope just backed off and actively avoided the little thing like the good girl she is.

So we went off to petsmart, Hope heeled great past the rescue dogs outside and around the store and since the dog and cat rescues were there, with the cat rescue inside, I took some time to work with Hope on her cat obsession keeping her just inside her threshold and getting her to break focus and look at me for a treat. She could go to about 15 feet away, but if one started meowing I had to add distance.

The cat rescue ladies were looking at me with concern, but ended up coming over and loving on Hope once they saw what I was doing. She got a lot of petting from kids, lots of comments on her good behavior.

I may even have her taking a CGC test in another month or so i things keep improving as well as they have been.



I got home and decided since it was an overcast and rainy day I would take Kaya out to the woods for a walk, as she stayed home while Hope went to class.

No joggers or bikers would be out at the local lake park that has miles of wooded mountain bike trails, a creek, and paved trails. I get few enough days like this where I don't have to worry about getting too much sun for my sun allergy.

Once we got out in the woods I let Kaya off leash and was working on her recall. The woods were great as she actually will go out more than 20-30 feet away at times so I can call her back. She did really good off leash, but I still don't think the ecollar is doing much for her. She got to kinda chase some ducks, they flew out away from shore and she wanted to go swim to them, but wouldn't go any deeper than when her belly hit the water. Then she tripped over a dead branch under the water and flew out of the water like something bit her...

I had her hop up and over a few picnic tables, practiced heeling ofleash a while and took a break to rest. Then I found a new game to play with her. I got her attention and tossed a hunk of freeze dried liver out into the tall brush and she got all excited and pounced all over till she found it, and zoomed back to me all excited, so I tossed several more and she was quite happy and bouncy and pouncy as she rarely gets..

So the e-collar has done wonders for Hope, CGC time is near. For Kaya the jury is still out, and if things don't change in 2-3 weeks I'll likely discontinue the e-collar for her.


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