# Aggressive 11mo old GS with toddler



## Charlie's Mom 82 (May 8, 2013)

We Have a 11 mo old Gs who is unaltered. We have had him since he was 8 weeks old. He has been awesome with our 1 year old and 2 1/2 year old. But, last month Our 2 and 1/2 year old was apparently ticking him off one two many times and growled and snipped at out cheek! Last week, the 2 year old was in his face talking to him as 2 years olds do and without warning he opened his mouth and lurched at her. I love this dog, but i will not put my daughter well being in jeopardy anymore than i have. He has now just growled twice at her 2 times today and i am keeping him in the kennel the rest of the day. Is this beyond repair? Is this normal for a dog to think he is more important than a toddler? Is it because they are eye level? He never bats any eye at our 1 year old son, just doesn't like our daughter. With an extremely heavy heart, I think i need to give him to a family with no little children ASAP.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

I'm gonna just say I wouldn't mess with it with little ones.

There will be some who will come on and tell you to get trainers and behaviorists. Keep them separate. Crate and kennel the dog when the little ones are around.

I'm tired of these threads. You have a young family, get a dog you can trust and enjoy. 
If you want a GSD then get someone who can find you a stable one with solid nerve

Otherwise look for a mellower breed. A good GSD is an awesome dog, a deficient one can be a pain to raise and worst case dangerous.
I had one when my children were little but it never did the things that I hear about on these threads. 

Best wishes.


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## Franksmom (Oct 13, 2010)

Some might say to get a trainer 
But 
I don't think I would risk it with the little ones, If they can not be taught or kept from "Ticking the dog off" and stay out of his face then he needs to be somewhere else before something bad happens. 
Keeping a dog seperated all the time from the family to keep the little ones safe isn't a real life for the dog.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Any dog is going to have a limit. Any dog will need to be supervised with children and all children need to be taught what is and what is not appropriate to do with dogs. I know that little ones do things, like being "in his face, talking to him". Kids like doing that. But they really shouldn't do that with any dog.

I think the situation is totally salvageable. But the children need to have some restrictions placed on how they interact with the dog. I have raised two children with German Shepherds, and the dogs did a great job of dealing with them. The key is to really, really supervise closely and drill it into the kids that you don't bug the dogs. With my sons, I would let them pet the dog with me sitting right there, literally hands on with both of them. I let my boys help me mix food, and fill the water bowls and bucket. I let them toss the ball for fetch. The boys loved it and the dogs loved it. I would never have expected my dog to put up with my child bugging it, no matter how well intentioned the child was.

OP, I hope you're able to make the changes needed to make sure that dog and children are safe from each other. It can be a pain in the neck, but children aren't youngsters forever. And they can learn how to be more respectful of a dog's personal space. 
Sheilah


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## Cheyanna (Aug 18, 2012)

Your children come first. Your job is to protect them. Do not wait until the dog bites. He is warning you. Heed the warning. It is not fair for the dog to live in his kennel until everyone grows up.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

This may not make me popular but here goes,,,I realize a 2.5 yr old child doesn't know right from wrong, why would anyone allow their child at that age to 'tick off the dog'?
Or get in ANY dog's face? 

Some feel children should be able to crawl all over the family dog and the dog should tolerate any and all behaviors from children. While there are many dogs who do tolerate it, there are many that aren't going to.

It doesn't make the dog "bad". But it does make for a bite waiting to happen and who pays? The child could pay, the dog will pay with it's life because it is a DOG.

With that, keep the dog and your young children separated, or supervise and redirect your child from 'ticking off the dog'.. Or find a home with no small children or someone who is going to be on top of situations like this.


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

I agree with what everyone else has written.

Dogs have their limits. I was a brat to the beagle we had when I was in elementary school one day after school. He turned and bit my cheek, one puncture, had a slight scar for many years. On my 7 or 8th birthday, my mom invited a large group of kids over in our backyard. One of them randomly picked up my dog's ear and blew into it, our dog bit near the eye area, the kid required stitches. I was normally a really well behaved child, but as you can see it just takes one incident of being goofy.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

If you are unwilling or unable to make sure your young kids treat the dog with respect, then the dog needs to be rehomed. Your kids safety comes first. 

Many dogs do not tolerate having someone in their face. Your dog is growling, which is actually a good warning, telling you he is uncomfortable with a situation. But if you do not step in and " have his back and remove the child" he will have no other choice but to harm your child. That is not acceptable. 

If its not feasible, rehome the dog. Don't put their safety on the line. And wait until they are older and able to understand how to deal with a dog in a respectful before getting another. 


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

I agree with restrictions on how children play with animals, but how can you put those restrictions on a one and two year old child. Id find the dog another home, its not worth the risk to your kids. You dont want to look back and say only if...


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## Seer (May 24, 2011)

In real terms his pack status is higher and he is more important then your child, and thats a real issue playing out. Its bad that he does not get it. Your decision is sound in my mind, sure he could come around with a trainer and sure you could be dealing with stitches and scarring while your training works it out.

Could be nothing else happens again, your gut instinct is telling you to move that kid out pronto. Im going with your gut, with nothing else to go by. Try the breeder the ones worth there salt will help you place him, if you need help.... It always tough making decisions for the better of your pack, good luck to your dog, be as good a parent there as well and get him a safe home. Sorry no easy decisions.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

Children, as well as pups, need supervision and discipline.

I raised mine with GSDs but did not allow either dog or child to 'tick off' the other.

You need to teach your little one how to behave around dogs (yeah, I know, 2 1/2) and do not allow them to interact without close monitoring.

Every dog has it limits and every child is apt to tease.

It's up to you to be on top of the situation. 

Never allow a child to be in a dog's face.


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

Msmaria said:


> I agree with restrictions on how children play with animals, but how can you put those restrictions on a one and two year old child. Id find the dog another home, its not worth the risk to your kids. You dont want to look back and say only if...


I don't see why you can't? I have an almost one year old and a 6 year old. You teach them to respect the dogs right away. If my littlest crawls over to rogue while she's eating a bone or starts grabbing at her, I remove him. I only allow them to interact when I can supervise. It's not all that difficult. With that said, I would not allow my dog to nip at my Children either. I don't allow my dog to take toys or food out of the kids hands either. And they need to be respectful of their space and not run them over etc. If the OP does want to see if this can be worked on I would look into NILIF and find a good trainer. Never leave the kids unsupervised around the dog, if your not sitting right there with the two of them then they don't interact. And teach your kids what's appropriate behavior around a dog right away. Not getting in their face and continuously bugging if the dog tries to get away etc. if this is too much than please re home him now while he's young. 


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i had a GSD when my children were 2 yrs old and 4 yrs old.
if he growled at them once or did anything that i thought was
inappropriate concerning my children he would have been gone
in a nano second. i don't mean i would have hurt him in any manner.
i mean i would have rehomed him in a nano second.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Another opinion to add to the pile. The dog is showing good restraint based on the information the OP has provided. It's not the dog who needs a trainer, it's the kids. If you want a dog that your kids can interact with the way you describe, this one is not it and it is in everyone's best interest that he be rehomed now before things escalate.


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## Charlie's Mom 82 (May 8, 2013)

I agree fully that my children as well as the dog need appropriate training. I am constantly doing that. I am a SAHM so i am able to monitor all the activity between my children and dog. All my daughter wants to do is love and snuggle with her great big teddy bear dog. I limit it to a small hug and a few short pats on the head. Most of the time, my GS licks cheeks and lays on feet. I appreciate everyones feedback.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Charlie's Mom 82 said:


> We Have a 11 mo old Gs who is unaltered. We have had him since he wa*s 8 weeks old. He has been awesome with our 1 year old and 2 1/2 year old. But, last month Our 2 and 1/2 year old was apparently ticking him off *one two many times and growled and snipped at out cheek! * Last week, the 2 year old was in his face talking to him as 2 years olds do and without warning he opened his mouth and lurched at her. * I love this dog, but i will not put my daughter well being in jeopardy anymore than i have. He has now just growled twice at her 2 times today and i am keeping him in the kennel the rest of the day. * Is this beyond repair? Is this normal for a dog to think he is more important than a toddler?* Is it because they are eye level? He never bats any eye at our 1 year old son, just doesn't like our daughter. With an extremely heavy heart, I think i need to give him to a family with no little children ASAP.


Why would you let your daughter get into your dogs face when he's given everyone, including you, multiple warnings already? The dog growled. If he growls, even nips, he's got enough so that would give me a hint to keep a closer eye on my daughter. 

It's not a stuffed teddy bear or a machine. It's a living being and every dog has a point where he wants to be left alone. 

It has nothing to do with not liking your daughter, it's probably because she is continuously "harrassing" the dog. 

I agree with Jamie. Kids can be taught from the very beginning to respect the space of the dog.


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## Muneraven (Sep 4, 2012)

I have to side with those who say rehome the dog. It has been my experience that you can never fully trust a dog who snaps at a small child because they just don't have that built-in "Babies get a pass" trait that other dogs often have. We've all seen dogs who have been climbed on, chewed on, and mauled by babies, puppies, and kittens and just keep smiling. You need that kind of dog.

And breed can factor into it but it isn't any sort of guarantee! There are "soft" dogs that want nothing to do with any kind of baby and GSDs, Mals, and Pit Bulls who are terrific with rowdy younguns.


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## Charlie's Mom 82 (May 8, 2013)

Mrs.K said:


> Why would you let your daughter get into your dogs face when he's given everyone, including you, multiple warnings already? The dog growled. If he growls, even nips, he's got enough so that would give me a hint to keep a closer eye on my daughter.
> 
> I believe you missed where i wrote that i watch all interaction. In my opinion (not my dogs) these interaction were not annoying or long enough to receive a growl. His growls are unwarranted. I do watch when my child is close to my dogs face. I watch his body language and listen for any audio suggestions he is upset. I love my dog, but not as much as my children. Of course i would not keep him for a second if i did not think my children and Charlie could learn they place in this family and respect each others space


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

It would bother me of my child hugging our dog resulted in a growl or snap. I do keep a close watch as i said but I know for a fact that my kids could hug/kiss/pat her touch her feet, get in her face etc without an issue. Maybe this dog is just not the right dog for a family with little kids. Can I ask about his lineage. Is he a working, show or pet line? 


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Charlie's Mom 82 said:


> Mrs.K said:
> 
> 
> > Why would you let your daughter get into your dogs face when he's given everyone, including you, multiple warnings already? The dog growled. If he growls, even nips, he's got enough so that would give me a hint to keep a closer eye on my daughter.
> ...


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I don't think that a dog should growl at a child, but I also don't think that kids should do stuff to annoy the dog and since all dogs are different we really don't know how much can or can not annoy a dog. There needs to be a balance. My female GSD has always loved kids and had never growled at them. The new male GSD I just brought in has never been around kids his whole life and he adores them too. Of course I always watch, but I find that I trust my dogs and I'm watching the kids more and if they do something that I believe is aggravating the dog I would immediately stop them(the kids).


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

llombardo said:


> I don't think that a dog should growl at a child, but I also don't think that kids should do stuff to annoy the dog and since all dogs are different we really don't know how much can or can not annoy a dog. There needs to be a balance. My female GSD has always loved kids and had never growled at them. The new male GSD I just brought in has never been around kids his whole life and he adores them too. Of course I always watch, but I find that I trust my dogs and I'm watching the kids more and if they do something that I believe is aggravating the dog I would immediately stop them(the kids).



I feel the exact same way. My dogs adore kids also and I do believe they should be solid around kids. BUT if a dog gives you a warning signal, remove the kid, don't take a chance and if you are unable or unwilling to manage the situation re-home the dog. 

This has nothing to do with giving the dog more rights than your own kids but everything to do with KEEPING YOUR KIDS and your dog safe.


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## Charlie's Mom 82 (May 8, 2013)

I thought it would be obvious and i wouldn't have to actually write it, But i do remove my child from the situation. It is not the time to wait and see. My reasoning for this post was not to have my mothering questioned but to asked if a dog goes through a dominese phase as it reaches adulence. And again thank you to the helpful responses. I most certanily am trying to "manage the situation" as well. It just helps to hear from others who might have been through the same situation and how they had it resolved


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## Charlie's Mom 82 (May 8, 2013)

Capone22 said:


> It would bother me of my child hugging our dog resulted in a growl or snap. I do keep a close watch as i said but I know for a fact that my kids could hug/kiss/pat her touch her feet, get in her face etc without an issue. Maybe this dog is just not the right dog for a family with little kids. Can I ask about his lineage. Is he a working, show or pet
> 
> 
> 
> We bought him from breeders. He is registered and 100% pure breed. I do believe he comes from a working line.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> I'm gonna just say I wouldn't mess with it with little ones.
> 
> There will be some who will come on and tell you to get trainers and behaviorists. Keep them separate. Crate and kennel the dog when the little ones are around.
> 
> ...


This isn't about getting another dog or another breed this is a parenting issue. IF they can't control their kids they should not have pets. Animals are not toys.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Charlie's Mom 82 said:


> All my daughter wants to do is love and snuggle with her great big teddy bear dog. I limit it to a small hug and a few short pats on the head.


I don't have kids, but I wanted to point out that this kind of interaction is exactly what many dogs do not particularly like. Some may tolerate it better than others, but generally hugs and pats on the head are not something that most dogs enjoy. Humans approach each other face to face, which is not the way dogs tend to approach each other, and they can see this kind of behavior from people as confrontational. Also, reaching over the head for a pat vs coming up under the chin or petting at the side of the head, can be unwelcome as well. Here are some articles about this: 

Doggone Safe: Sad that Kids Can't Hug Their Dog

DON'T HUG-YOUR-DOG DAY | Dog Star Daily

Ain't Misbehavin' Gentle Dog Training Blog Archive Forewarned is Forearmed – Hugging and Kissing Dogs

Dog Bite Prevention Week: Dogs Don't Like Hugs | Karen Pryor Clicker Training

Dog Bite - Prevent Dog Bites - Dog Bites What to Do


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## jessac (Oct 29, 2012)

Tough situation. I think if you (or your kids) want an animal that they can hug and stuff, I'd look into getting a different dog, maybe older? That's been proven solid in these circumstances? Or wait a bit until the kids are older? But I'd still really try and reinforce that that's not a proper way to interact with a dog so that they don't try and hug their friend's dog or something when they are older. 

I do think dogs occasionally push their boundaries during their teen phase to see what rules you will enforce, but more like not coming when called, etc. I don't think this is a "dominance phase" that he will just outgrow without a lot of training.


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## Charlie's Mom 82 (May 8, 2013)

I don't have kids, but I wanted to point out that this kind of interaction is exactly what many dogs do not particularly like. Some may tolerate it better than others, but generally hugs and pats on the head are not something that most dogs enjoy. Humans approach each other face to face, which is not the way dogs tend to approach each other, and they can see this kind of behavior from people as confrontational. Also, reaching over the head for a pat vs coming up under the chin or petting at the side of the head, can be unwelcome as well. Here are some articles about this: 



Thank you for the information. I guess i am just naive to the patients that my dog had, but now i know and hope to help my daughter show him love, but more of what he enjoys


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think you've gotten some good advice and suggestions, here's another one. 

Stop the physical stuff with your daughter hugging/etc the dog, give her a BALL or a Toy , and let her throw it for him, she can interact with him without getting physically in his face.

I also think the dog is showing good restraint, he's UNCOMFORTABLE with whatever physical your daughter is doing to him, it's a WARNING, at some point if it continues, he's going to get fed up with the 'hugging' and maybe go thru with a bite.

again he's a DOG, (I'm not saying he's 'right') these dogs are not golden retrievers, 

If you feel the need for help, contact your breeder, being 'registered' and '100% purebred' means NOTHING...

I know you monitor situations, if so, stop your daughter before she goes for that "hug". He's not a teddy bear, he's a living breathing animal. 

Sorry if I sound harsh, I don't mean to, it just bothers me when people think these dogs should tolerate every single thing that gets thrown their way when in fact there are many that don't.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Just to add another good source for kids and dogs:

http://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/kids-and-dogs-how-kids-should-and-should-not-interact-with-dogs

I'll add that while you are teaching your kids how to safely interact with your pup, up the ob training for the pup as well. If not in a training class, join one and advance his obedience skills.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

Your little ones, I guess, are a great nuisance to your dog. Beware, he will teach your daughter to behave the bad way next time if she doesn't leave him alone! I've got my first dog bite when I was 1 year old. It was a hot day, one of our dogs stretched himself on the sand in the shadow, and I was outlining Mars with my little tender pink index finger while he was drowsing. I awakened him by doing this, he was growling all the time, and bit my hand badly when I was just about to outline his nose.
Some dogs run away from their homes being pestered by kids. So, it is not fair to him to leave him with your children when he doesn't have anywhere to go to, their separation at home is the best solution. Surely, they can play together on walks.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

pets4life said:


> This isn't about getting another dog or another breed this is a parenting issue. IF they can't control their kids they should not have pets. Animals are not toys.


BS. Unless the kids were being really mean or torturing the dogs somehow, then the dog should not nip or growl. I raised four kids with dogs and the first was a GSD. I expect more out of a good dog and got it. No problems ever with my kids.

Why did almost every woman who posted take the mom to task for her parenting based on a loosely worded short post? I didn't assume she had bad parenting skills based on that little bit of information. My advice to her still stands.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Debbie was very helpful to post all those links explaining that some dogs don't like this type of physical contact. And what else can a dog do, except growl and nip, when the other signs have been ignored? I'm sure there's plenty of us here who've hugged our dogs, but they've tensed up or turned their head and we let go because we know they're not enjoying our lavish and overbearing displays, lol. A child can't be expected to understand these signals, when even many adults don't!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Jack's Dad said:


> BS. Unless the kids were being really mean or torturing the dogs somehow, then the dog should not nip or growl. I raised four kids with dogs and the first was a GSD. I expect more out of a good dog and got it. No problems ever with my kids.
> 
> Why did almost every woman who posted take the mom to task for her parenting based on a loosely worded short post? I didn't assume she had bad parenting skills based on that little bit of information. My advice to her still stands.


A lot of people have fond memories of growing up with a dog that allowed them to do anything and everything. Or they went over to a family member's or a friend's house for a little while, their kids played with a very well behaved, good tempered, probably trained for months on end, and they thought it would be a good idea to get one. Or maybe they're like my GF and I, who got a dog, have raised him and have devoted tons of time to him, and once we do have kids...it will be a huge shock to how much the dog will probably take a back seat.

Truthfully, I can't imagine having 2 toddlers and an 11 month old GSD.

This GSD...is probably just like mine, he can only take so much until he'll let the kid know he's had enough. I just don't put him in that position. He only has to deal with small kids once in a while and I make sure to watch every interaction like a hawk.

OP, if you can find a home within the family for this dog, or maybe a friend looking for one, that would be great. I think a lot of people on this forum just hate seeing dogs get rehomed due to management issues. They're not your fault, I just think you have your hands full and the best decision for you and the dog would be to separate.

This is one of those questions, that if you've already thought about rehoming, you should probably do it.


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

Your obviously going to get two sides to this. I think I'm in the middle. I do agree kids need to have rules and be taught how to interact with dogs. My kids are not allowed in the crate, not allowed to bug dogs while they are in their crate. Taking bones or food from them is not ok etc. but I'm sorry, if I'm in the bathroom for a minute and my toddler wanders over for a "hug" and gets bit in the face its completely unacceptable. That is not a stable GSD. And I know many well respected people who's dogs would be in major trouble for acting like that toward a child. This tip toe around, cater to our dogs "feelings" and click and treat for every problem is landing dogs like this in the shelter. You don't like what the kid is doing? Fine get up and walk away. Snapping, growling and eventually biting is NOT ok. Especially over something minor. 

What training have you done with this dog? How respectful is he to the grown ups in the house? Any other "issues?" 


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

Capone22 said:


> Your obviously going to get two sides to this. I think I'm in the middle. I do agree kids need to have rules and be taught how to interact with dogs. My kids are not allowed in the crate, not allowed to bug dogs while they are in their crate. Taking bones or food from them is not ok etc. but I'm sorry, if I'm in the bathroom for a minute and my toddler wanders over for a "hug" and gets bit in the face its completely unacceptable. That is not a stable GSD. And I know many well respected people who's dogs would be in major trouble for acting like that toward a child. This tip toe around, cater to our dogs "feelings" and click and treat for every problem is landing dogs like this in the shelter. You don't like what the kid is doing? Fine get up and walk away. Snapping, growling and eventually biting is NOT ok. Especially over something minor.
> 
> ]I agree with this post, there is a huge difference between a child being close to a dog, or tormenting a dog. My granddaughter (20 months)is not allowed near the food bowls,or to bug her when she is crated, I don't let her climb or crawl on the dogs....but toddlers fall all the time, if a dog is that sensitive, an inadvertent fall could set it off. My first dog GSD/elkhound mix was 8 before we had kids, when she had enough she would leave the room. All dogs have that option.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> BS. Unless the kids were being really mean or torturing the dogs somehow, then the dog should not nip or growl. I raised four kids with dogs and the first was a GSD. I expect more out of a good dog and got it. No problems ever with my kids.
> 
> Why did almost every woman who posted take the mom to task for her parenting based on a loosely worded short post? I didn't assume she had bad parenting skills based on that little bit of information. My advice to her still stands.



Look around you look at how many kids faces are bitten each year? Does not matter your own personal experience. The more you push this sort of wrong behaviour the more kids are going to be bitten, mauled killed etc.. You can either teach children to respect pets and be good or keep watching the news of a new child being attacked, bitten, clawed, scratched, strangled, pecked, flogged, kicked etc..

It isn't just a dog issue its just general teaching children how to be around animals in general.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

ksotto333 said:


> Capone22 said:
> 
> 
> > Your obviously going to get two sides to this. I think I'm in the middle. I do agree kids need to have rules and be taught how to interact with dogs. My kids are not allowed in the crate, not allowed to bug dogs while they are in their crate. Taking bones or food from them is not ok etc. but I'm sorry, if I'm in the bathroom for a minute and my toddler wanders over for a "hug" and gets bit in the face its completely unacceptable. That is not a stable GSD. And I know many well respected people who's dogs would be in major trouble for acting like that toward a child. This tip toe around, cater to our dogs "feelings" and click and treat for every problem is landing dogs like this in the shelter. You don't like what the kid is doing? Fine get up and walk away. Snapping, growling and eventually biting is NOT ok. Especially over something minor.
> ...


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

pets4life said:


> Look around you look at how many kids faces are bitten each year? Does not matter your own personal experience. The more you push this sort of bratty behaviour the more kids are going to be bitten, mauled killed etc.. You can either teach children to respect pets and be good or keep watching the news of a new child being attacked, bitten, clawed, scratched, strangled, pecked, flogged, kicked etc..
> 
> It isn't just a dog issue its just general teaching children how to be around animals in general.


I'm the last one to question about leniency with regard to children.
You should ask my now adult children if they didn't have to toe the line with regard to dogs and a thousand other things.
They thank me now for being strict, fair and consistent. Those are their words not mine.

Still unless a dog is actually being tormented or bothered in a mean fashion they should not bite, growl, or nip children, especially toddlers.

People in general are too lenient with children and dogs now. All the redirection ant treats. Treating dogs like they are human babies. Dogs need to learn NO just like children do. I've had roughly a dozen dogs in my life and they all learned what no meant. It's not a requirement to be harsh on a dog to teach them certain behavior is not acceptable, just consistency and praise when they do things right.

These days it seems people feel every dog should be figured out, understood, catered to etc. 

No, they need to be taught proper behavior and all of them can't be saved.

When the decision is made to have children they come first IMO.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Maybe they shouldnt. But this one did and does! 

Shouldn't doesn't help the OP.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

When i was a kid none of us would go up to strange dogs and pet or hug them the way kids do now. We had a lot of respect dogs and all animals. Even at such a young age, none of us were attacked we just knew common sense. 

My parents didn't let us bother my grandparents gsd when we were toddlers who was fiercely protective. He was not aggressive to us but they just knew we were so young and accidents can happen.

All that stuff has gone out the window now days. Of course people treat dogs like little babies also which is another issue all together.

Children are human they speak our language dogs don't.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> Maybe they shouldnt. But this one did and does!
> 
> Shouldn't doesn't help the OP.


Had it done that in my house it would have been gone in a Nano second, like doggiedad said.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Jack's Dad said:


> Had it done that in my house it would have been gone in a Nano second, like doggiedad said.



I don't get people like that.

Growling is not a bad thing. It let's you know that the dog is uncomfortable with a situation. There are plenty of dogs that don't give you that growl and _"bite out of the blue"._


In our house it wasn't growling. If a dog growled we left it alone. It showed us when we went too far with the dog, as kids. If the dog had ever bit, on the other hand. My dad would have probably put a bullet through the dogs head. 

Biting, that is something he has never tolerated. Growling on the other hand, is something I WANT my dogs to do. I WANT my dogs to show me exactly when they have had enough instead of just giving subtle signals that I might overlook. 

That being said, Nala and Indra have never growled at me.


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

When I had my first child, I already had a GSD who was about 9 yrs old. She had been our baby up until then. She never once growled at my son, and tolerated a lot of his antics. But he was also taught how to behave around a dog. The dog looked to me as to how she should behave and to keep her safe from my son. I have had all sorts of dogs as my kids were growing up. Can't remember any of them ever growling at my kids. And neither one of my dogs now have ever growled at my grandkids. But I NEVER trust any dog alone with a small child. A dog is a dog. 
I had a dog growing up that I harassed endlessly. I didn't think so at the time but looking back....poor dog. One day he had enough...He bit me after many warning growls.(not a serious bite) I stopped harassing him.


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## bga (Jan 30, 2013)

This thread provides a perfect example of how limited web forums can be in terms of useful, constructive, or even civil interaction. The OP comes on here as a first time poster seeking some real help with a difficult situation and several people start making assumptions and criticising her parenting skills. 

ie. kids must be constantly roughhousing / abusing the dog... but the OP never said that. All she said was that her child was near the dog's face. If that is all it takes, then no one should ever own a GSD. She never gave much detail on any of it.

I have no problem with opposing viewpoints, but making assumptions (subsequently corrected by the OP) and instantly passing judgment is not helpful. I wonder if we'd be so quick to do this we were sitting across from the person in real life?




Regarding the actual problem the OP brings up, I have a 2 month old baby and we'll be getting our first WL GSD puppy in a couple months. We had a GSD before, but she was not WL and we did not have children at the time. In any case, I have done a huge amount of reading and research over the past few years on WL GSDs, in both books and on these forums. I do not take it lightly and I have a good idea what I am getting into. I have told the breeder what we need: a dog that is good with children, medium drive, active, yet not over the top, etc, Our puppy will be taught people manners and our child will be taught dog manners. He will not be allowed to tease the dog, tug on its tail, pull its ears, roughhouse, etc. and he will be taught to teach the dog with respect overall. I don't expect the dog to tolerate everything, nor will I allow it, but I do expect it to tolerate some things.

So after reading some of the responses in this thread, my ultimate question is this. Am I deluding myself to think my infant will be safe with a well-bred, properly trained WL GSD? Am I really going to have to watch the two interact every minute for the next 12 years, for fear that if I let my guard down for even a second, and our child gets "in the GSD's face" one too many times than our child loses his? Do I really have to watch out for, god forbid, our child hugging our GSD too many times? Some people in this thread have said as much. If this is the case, than everything I think I "know" about GSDs is wrong, and I should reconsider.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

I liked your post bga. Your assessment of the way people are sometimes treated based on very limited information is something that really annoys me.

I had a GSd from when my oldest two children were under 3 and had no problems at all.

Having said that, if I were starting over I would get another breed for my kids first dog. Unless you know someone who will practically guarantee the pups temperament I would go with a less agreessive breed.

There are no guarantees with living creatures but GSDs, Rotts. and Dobies along with other breeds are aggressive breeds. If they are bred properly the aggression is a good thing, if not they are potentially more dangerous especially to children. 

Check out the aggression forum and see the potential problems.

Your baby will not care whether your dog is a GSD or a Lab.
Yes a Lab or other breed could be a problem also, but is far less likely.
Just my opinion.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

bga said:


> This thread provides a perfect example of how limited web forums can be in terms of useful, constructive, or even civil interaction. The OP comes on here as a first time poster seeking some real help with a difficult situation and several people start making assumptions and criticising her parenting skills.
> 
> ie. kids must be constantly roughhousing / abusing the dog... but the OP never said that. All she said was that her child was near the dog's face. If that is all it takes, then no one should ever own a GSD. She never gave much detail on any of it.
> 
> ...


Op said the kid was IN the dogs face. That is a difference from being near the dogs face. 

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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> Op said the kid was IN the dogs face. That is a difference from being near the dogs face.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


In the dogs face is very subject to interpretation. We people have personal space we don't like violated but what one would say is in your face is not the same to someone else. I did not take that statement by the OP in its most negative light.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Jack's Dad said:


> In the dogs face is very subject to interpretation. We people have personal space we don't like violated but what one would say is in your face is not the same to someone else. I did not take that statement by the OP in its most negative light.


Well...op is talking about hugs and kisses etc. So in the dogs face, to me, sounded quite literal...it is what a two year old does and I am not being mean about that. 


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## bga (Jan 30, 2013)

Mrs.K said:


> Well...op is talking about hugs and kisses etc. So in the dogs face, to me, sounded quite literal...it is what a two year old does and I am not being mean about that.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


...and if it is literal? Are you saying that if a child, moreover a child in the GSDs family, gets to within a certain range of a GSD's face it is normal behavior for the GSD to growl and / or bite? If so, I disagree entirely.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> Well...op is talking about hugs and kisses etc. So in the dogs face, to me, sounded quite literal...it is what a two year old does and I am not being mean about that.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Well if that is literally what the two yr. old was doing, hugs and kisses then who wants a dog that will growl or nip over that.

If you ever have kids you'll get it. I won't risk my kids face because some dog doesn't like hugs and kisses. 

Even if a toddler does something like pull the tail or ears the dog can leave.

Of course she could lock the dog in a kennel. I'm sure that would go over well on here.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I don't think it's "ok" for any dog to nail a kid/growl etc, but the fact is, there are many dogs who will , to think otherwise is living in la la land, that's basically what I'm saying. 

I'm also saying parents (and my intent was never to bash the OP's parenting skills at all), of toddlers who know no better, need to be vigilant and never leave them alone with the family dog..Only takes a split second. 

Better safe than sorry.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I don't think it's "ok" for any dog to nail a kid/growl etc, but the fact is, there are many dogs who will , to think otherwise is living in la la land, that's basically what I'm saying.
> 
> I'm also saying parents (and my intent was never to bash the OP's parenting skills at all), of toddlers who know no better, need to be vigilant and never leave them alone with the family dog..Only takes a split second.
> 
> Better safe than sorry.


This,

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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

bga said:


> I have no problem with opposing viewpoints, but making assumptions (subsequently corrected by the OP) and instantly passing judgment is not helpful. I wonder if we'd be so quick to do this we were sitting across from the person in real life?


What I posted was exactly what I'd tell someone face to face in real life. I don't think the kids are tormenting the dog and I don't think the OP is a bad parent. I also don't think dogs growling and snapping at kids is okay and that people should just accept this kind of behavior. 

But obviously, not everyone realizes what kinds of interaction may not be welcome to dogs in general, and might make a dog uncomfortable and prone to react. Not everyone is adept at reading subtle signals that the dog's threshold has been crossed and an incident is imminent. It's a tough situation because the kids are so young and may not be able to understand that they shouldn't try to hug the dog. 

BTW, I actually have a dog that loves attention and affection from anyone and everyone, kids included. He doesn't just tolerate hugs, he enjoys them, and pretty much any other kind of physical contact. Even though we don't have kids and his exposure to them is fairly limited, he's had kids fling themselves at him and wrap their arms around him and he won't do a thing except maybe a gentle lick. But I wouldn't expect EVERY dog to be like that, or hold that as the standard that all dogs should meet. He's a weird one. :wub:


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

There is a huge market in child safety products. Items to install in cupboards, drawers and electric sockets plus many others to keep small children safe.

Why is that? Because toddlers don't have the cognitive ability to fully understand your explanation of why those things can be dangerous to them.

My oldest daughter learned this by inserting dad's car keys into an electric socket. She never did it again.
So teaching them about dogs is a good thing but by no means a sure thing.

I know that some dogs react and nip, bite etc.... but if someone knows that then they only have two choices when they have children. Keep the kids and the dogs entirely away from each other or get rid of the dog.

We were eating outside at a Pollo Loco once when Jack was about a year old. A girls soccer team descended on the place en masse. They were about 10 years old and ran right up to and surrounded him, petting him jumping up and down and he loved it.

If he had been an insecure or reactive dog it would have been very bad.

People need to take reactive or pushy dogs very seriously and keep them from where they can harm a child or adult for that matter.

We can't expect society to defer or cater to the dogs issues but instead protect society from the dog. Whatever that takes.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I just don't know. 

Cujo was 2 when my sister adopted Analisa and Elena. Before that Cujo was never around children. The girls were 9 months and 1 year and the younger had a foster family that had a dog, that she did not like. The elder was not afraid of Cujo, and they younger was. And I found the whole thing terribly scary because if Cujo did anything it would be all my fault as I gave him to my parents. 

That first year was interesting. They came over 4-6 times, and most of those times I was there a great deal of time with a death grip on Cujo's collar. The kids had a pet yard set up in the living room, where they could play safely, but they did not like to stay in there all the time. It was Cujo's house, so he was the one out and about. My mom was certain he would not bite anyone. 

He would knock down Elena and step on her. And he would try to herd Analisa away from My mom's study -- only he was allowed to go in with Grandma, but Analisa kept on coming. 

Twice he snapped at babies. Analisa was about 2 when she landed on him, and he snapped at her -- did not connect, but scared her, and my mom and her mom both explained to her that she cannot jump on the dog. And at Christmas, my brother's step daughter's youngest son did something similar that he did all the time to his dog at home. But Cujo did not have a crazy 2 year old boy that jumped on him regularly so he snapped at the kid -- did not connect, and we told the kid not to bother the dog. I renewed my collar holding for a while. 

Christmas, when these people were over, was a harried time with about 28 people of all shapes and sizes in the house from about 11am to 4 am. So it was pretty crazy for a dog with no early socialization to children, who lived with an old retired couple. 

My brother, sort of a grandfather himself would come over and tease and torment the dog. But the dog did growl at him and even snapped once, my mom put her foot down and told him that the dog has never bit anyone, does he want to be the first. 

The girls grew, by the time they were three, Cujo was their best buddy. Still coming over only half a dozen times a year, but usually spending the night, so they were with the dog for a good time. They could cover him up with their blankets. Cujo would walk into the Kitchen with Analisa holding his butt an following him. He would stop and wait for her, turning back to look. 

By the time Andrea was born, she is now 3, Cujo was a veteran baby-dog. When Gwennie was born so early Andrea stayed with my parents quite a bit, and Cujo was stellar with her -- she was about 1 year. 

Losing Cujo has been hard on all of us. 

I guess my point in saying this is that a dog can go from being relatively scary around children to being great with children. 

On the other hand, there are things you just cannot take back. If this dog does bite your child, especially in the face, then your kid will have to get over it, and may really dislike dogs. Your kid may be disfigured -- can't take that back. And a dog that is raised with babies around 24/7 should be a whole lot easier around them than Cujo was. 

Now I have been bringing my girls with my when I go to babysit the older girls -- they are six now. They do not hug my dogs. They pet them, they may walk alongside them, they offer a hand to the dog and let the dogs come up to them. I was very proud of them for standing like trees when a tiny dog came charging out when we were walking Babsy. They are not raised with dogs, or rather they do not live 24/7 with a dog. And my girls have not been raised with kids. So I have to be more careful, you would think.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Maybe it's time to neuter your boy and take him to classes and step up the NILIF with him. I like the idea of having the child throw the ball if and only if the dog is not ball crazy. If the dog will not try to snatch the ball out of a hand. If you can teach the dog first to GIVE the ball, and to SIT, and to WAIT until the ball is thrown, and a command given to go after it, it would be great for your youngsters to play that game. That is a judgement call. We kept kid toys and dog toys separate. The dog was not allowed the kid toys, the kids did not mess with the dog toys. 

The kids were not in the room when we fed the dog normally. It turned out that that wasn't an issue, when one of the babies came in and was standing next to him when he had his food. But that wasn't allowed and not repeated. Cujo never cared to much about food either though, so that was unlikely to be an issue. 

I think that the dog is making decisions that he has no business making. He needs to be clear that you control the babies and that he is not allowed to discipline them, but also that you will not allow them to hurt him. 

But I really don't know if it would be better to rehome the pup, and try again when your kids are over 5 or 6. Or if you should tough it out, being super careful with the kids, and upping the leadership and training with the dog.


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## Charlie's Mom 82 (May 8, 2013)

Cassidy's Mom....Thank you! I realize i was limited in my information about other interaction with my 2 1/2 year old and GSD. My daughter is the one who hands out the treats after a command has been obeyed. She is the one because she wanted to be the one to give "presents". My children and my dog follow me from room to room together. My dog will most always initiate any play with myself or my daughter 99% of the time. Meaning, he will bump his nose in our face or bring the ball or etc. When we first brought him home, my husband and I stuck our hands in his bowl while eating incase that situation arose with my children(and also had my daughter do it when he was very young). He plays outside when were outside playing. He understands which balls are his and which aren't. They used to think each others toys belonged to whoever was holding it at the time. He is a good dog. Today was good in the aggressive aspect. I definitely realized that to him, my daughter was overbearing. I really tried to explain to her today that Charlie gets "scared" of her when she is by him too much. I showed her to stand next to him instead of in front of him. I showed her about petting under his chin opposed to a pat on the head. She gave a kiss on the neck instead of a hug around the neck. And, I really limited the interaction time between the two. It was intervals of seconds literally. I really expected that since we have had Charlie since he was so young that he would have been used to her energy even more so because he is a GSD. I laughed at the responder who call my daughter "bratty". Sir, there is no such thing as a bratty 2 year old in my opinion. My daughter and I have a new respect for our dog. He has his limits, which were imposed on.
***Also, thank you to all the others who offered constructive information. It really has helped me to make better more informed actions. I know that just because today was successful, doesn't mean the problem is solved. This is an ongoing situation that i will have to very closely work on for my daughters well being


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## Charlie's Mom 82 (May 8, 2013)

Thank you bga!


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

bga said:


> ...and if it is literal? Are you saying that if a child, moreover a child in the GSDs family, gets to within a certain range of a GSD's face it is normal behavior for the GSD to growl and / or bite? If so, I disagree entirely.



Dog is not going to be aggressive just get ready for how rough WL pups are like mini land sharks when they are young. They are little monsters. A lot of work specially if you have such a young baby. The aggression thing is not an issue, if you are there to monitor your child and dog interaction it does not matter what breed the dog is. The relationship will turn out good. I just don't know how well a WL pup and strollers would do specially when your pup is 6 months plus. Not sure about others WL but mine is not cuddly or kissy or huggy type. Is usually a serious dog that is always ready to work. Needs a job or will find one (ruin the house lol)


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> Originally Posted by bga
> ...and if it is literal? Are you saying that if a child, moreover a child in the GSDs family, gets to within a certain range of a GSD's face it is normal behavior for the GSD to growl and / or bite? If so, I disagree entirely.


Nobody ever said that. 

We don't know what "In the face" is. From experience with kids and especially young kids, from holding presentations with one of my dogs in classes, fairs, farmers markets, etc. I have a certain picture of "In the dogs face" because kids will quite literally be "IN" the dogs face. Holding dogs on the side of the head and then giving hugs and kisses. 

Some dogs can't tolerate that, some dogs solicit that type of attention (got two of those) and others calmly accept it and endure quite literally, almost everything the kids do with them. 

However, than you got those that don't and here comes the part that everyone has been saying: IF YOU HAVE A DOG THAT DOES NOT ACCEPT IT, TAKE THE NECESSARY STEPS TO KEEP YOUR CHILD AND DOG SAFE!


That being said, we are talking about a young adult dog that has not even fully matured yet, and because of all the issues that can arise with puppies and young adults I would almost always recommend an older, matured dog for kids. 

I get it, a lot of people want their Kids and Dogs to grow up together, become best friends. But most of the time, at some point, they run into these exact problems, the OP has described. 

So why not get a young adult, that's already settled and proven to be great around kids?


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Charlie's Mom 82 said:


> Cassidy's Mom....Thank you! I realize i was limited in my information about other interaction with my 2 1/2 year old and GSD. My daughter is the one who hands out the treats after a command has been obeyed. She is the one because she wanted to be the one to give "presents". My children and my dog follow me from room to room together. *My dog will most always initiate any play with myself or my daughter 99% of the time. Meaning, he will bump his nose in our face or bring the ball or etc. * W


You need to ignore him when he does this. 
You own the toys, you bring them out and initiate play, not him. 
Please look into NILIF. I am sure it will help tremendously.

http://k9deb.com/nilif.htm


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

pets4life said:


> Dogs specially gsd are never going to see a child above them they respect kids because of us but kids are never going to be above them.


^^ This. If people understand this they will also understand why it's so imperative to be proactive with kid/dog interactions. Also, some people do not realize how fast the dogs are. If a dog decides to correct a child there is no way to prevent it.


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## mebully21 (Nov 18, 2011)

i wouldnt even let your daughter kiss his neck... like others said have her play with him with a ball, do obedience work, hand out treats etc... but no more touchng.

if someone was in my face constantly hugging me i would punch them if i kept warning them and they didnt listen. not every dog likes to be hugged or kissed .... respect the dogs wishes and train your daughter. the dog has given numerous warnings and has shown great restraint in NOT bitng the child.

as far as children getting bit/mauled/killed by dogs- sorry its the parents fault for not supervising.. too many stories in the news the parents are sleeping, or not home, or in another room and not paying attention to a toddler... the parents need to be punished for not being a parent ... its not the dogs fault the parent was sleeping/partying/ not paying attention to their child....until parents take responsibility for being unattentive children will continue to get hurt by dogs


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Charlie's Mom 82 said:


> My daughter and I have a new respect for our dog. He has his limits, which were imposed on.
> 
> I know that just because today was successful, doesn't mean the problem is solved.


I think things will be much better now, since instead of wondering why your puppy isn't accepting hugs, and is growling instead, you've changed your expectations. Now when your puppy growls, you're going to ask what is threatening him to get that reaction. Thanks for the positive update


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