# Advice Please



## SlipperyRug (Apr 24, 2016)

So I’m really embarrassed to admit this but I’ve had an accidental breeding at home. It was the females third heat in the house, and apparently it was too much motivation this time. My male broke through a wood slat gate to get out from our under stairs kennel, and uh.. nature found a way.. 

Anyway, I need help weeding out the wrong sort of people. I really just want to make sure they go to a good home, and definitely with someone that knows what they’re getting into. 

Also, should I offer only limited registrations or contracts stating they could get full rights at a later time if certain conditions are met? I’ve only ever been on the purchasing side of things so I’m a little lost. 

Anyway, thanks for the help.


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## Bramble (Oct 23, 2011)

How long ago was she bred? I believe if caught soon enough pregnancies can be terminated which would likely be the best option.

Have you contacted your dogs' breeder(s)? They may be able to help with rehome or at least guide you through the process.


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## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2018)

I am the owner of a 4-mo old GSD pup produced by a planned breeding, but a backyard breeding, by neighbors.

After the pups were born, the neighbors went around and asked friends, including us, if they'd like a free puppy. They didn't feel it right to charge money given that their dogs weren't "papered". Their dogs had no tests done regarding health issues or anything. 

For me to take a puppy based only on looking at the parents physical appearance and quick, amateur evaluations of their temprament, and the pups' developing characteristics, was a real crapshoot. Puppies are cute and they worm right into your heart, and if they have issues that cost lots of money (and time) it's super hard to give them back to a breeder or worse, to a shelter. Finding a new owner who will deal with said problems is even tougher to do.

My initial advice is give away the pups free of charge to friends and family if they will and can take on a GSD puppy. Then point them to this website for all the help they'll need!!

If you don't have enough takers among that group, maybe their friends or family can help you, but again, anyone who comes to your door should know about GSD's energy, potential health issues and "landsharking". We don't want these guys in shelters. If you could ask for "first right of refusal" that'd be great. 

My _big_ wish is that you could scrape up $400 to get two Embark tests done on the dam and sire (and no, I don't own Embark stock). This will establish pure breed for those who care about that but more importantly, show whether they are carriers for a whole host of diseases that can shorten life spans and cost money and heartache. The benefit is that you could show the results to potential new owners and either tell them "you don't have to worry about these things" or "this is potentially an issue, just so you know". 

In the 1st case, it helps reassure an owner that this pup has a great chance of having a healthy life (provided said owner does his part!).

In the latter case, it gives a potential owner foreknowldge of what _might_ be in the future and keeps you being the honest guy. And, if you did do these tests, I, as a prospective pup parent, would feel totally good about giving you the super bargain price of $50, $100 whatever, to help cover the costs of the parents' tests.

As it was, I took the gamble on "free puppy", and then submitted his swab to Embark for testing, because I wanted to be able to think about what I'd do if he had something like DM (how far would I take treatments?). It cost me $200 but it has been priceless in terms of the knowledge I got. I found out that yes, he is pure GSD, back to at least his grandparents, _and best of all,_ he tested clear for something like 165 diseases common to GSDs, including DM and multi-drug sensitivity.

Later, if I decide I want to backyard-breed him, I will find somebody who has a nice female and a_ similar set of Embark test results_, and that way, I will know that the pups will not be the product of DM carriers.


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## Bramble (Oct 23, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> Later, if I decide I want to backyard-breed him, I will find somebody who has a nice female and a_ similar set of Embark test results_, and that way, I will know that the pups will not be the product of DM carriers.


Breeding is about more than just physical health. A dog can be 100% physically healthy, but their temperament may be total unsound. Or Dog A and B may appear temperamentally okay, but when crossed produce temperamentally unsound puppies. You can't just know the two dogs in front of you, you need to know the dog behind those dogs as well.


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## SlipperyRug (Apr 24, 2016)

Just to clarify. I have full papers on both dogs with a pedigrees stretching back into the 60s for both.


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

They are not brother and sister are they?

Please post pedigree's.

Moms


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## SlipperyRug (Apr 24, 2016)

Definitely not related. 


http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/ger...46812-the-lady-shredder-karai-von-abercrombie


http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2746811-cooper-vom-abercrombie


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

SlipperyRug said:


> So I’m really embarrassed to admit this but I’ve had an accidental breeding at home. It was the females third heat in the house, and apparently it was too much motivation this time. My male broke through a wood slat gate to get out from our under stairs kennel, and uh.. nature found a way..
> 
> Anyway, I need help weeding out the wrong sort of people. I really just want to make sure they go to a good home, and definitely with someone that knows what they’re getting into.
> 
> ...


I would be doing a spay/abort if it were my dog.
But you likely will not do so, it sounds like this may have been an accident you are not opposed to.

So, what you do with these pups will depend on who you are and what your dogs are. If these are dogs that are working or showing you have that avenue to place pups, but that sounds unlikely. So what you have is a litter of maybe good, maybe not pups who are going to run the gauntlet because you have not the experience and I suspect not the motivation to properly raise and home these pups.
Am I being rude and presumptuous? L'il bit yup.
So, I would not be offering any papers and definitely not full registration it will only increase the likelihood that this will perpetuate. 
You need to be screening buyers and to do so you need to ask questions. I would look at a few puppy questionnaires from reputable breeders and use those as a guide.
If your dogs came from a breeder I would reach out to them and get some guidance on keeping mom healthy and fit through pregnancy.


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## SlipperyRug (Apr 24, 2016)

I think the assumptions made here are ridiculous.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

SlipperyRug said:


> I think the assumptions made here are ridiculous.


That would be wonderful. What do your dogs do? What were the hip/elbow scores? Is the breeder aware of the breeding and what are their thoughts?

We want to be wrong here. So please correct me.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

I am by no means an expert on pedigree reading. But your dogs pedigree's, look to be above average compared to the byb dogs that I have seen advertised. Not saying what you'll have as far as pups. But, should be at minimum as good or better than pups from most pet homes.
Maybe someone more versed in pedigrees will chime in. As far as how to place dogs, good luck. I would shoot for families, or older couples already financially secure.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

FWIW, I know of a breeding similar to this one that was deliberately done recently. The parents did have their hips x-rayed but they weren't sent in to be OFA'd. The owner of the dam and the sire were very choosy on who purchased the pups charging just as much, if not more, for the pups than you would pay at a reputable breeder. 

They wanted to know housing situations, dog / GSD experience, training plans, were there any other dogs in the home and what breeds, where they planned on housing the pup, etc.


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## SlipperyRug (Apr 24, 2016)

cdwoodcox said:


> I am by no means an expert on pedigree reading. But your dogs pedigree's, look to be above average compared to the byb dogs that I have seen advertised. Not saying what you'll have as far as pups. But, should be at minimum as good or better than pups from most pet homes.
> Maybe someone more versed in pedigrees will chime in. As far as how to place dogs, good luck. I would shoot for families, or older couples already financially secure.


Thanks

I actually just finished working with a retired couple and their shepherd. They were really close to surrendering the dog, and that’s partly why I came here for advice. I’m just not sure how to weed that sort of person out. Because anyone that’s had a shepherd knows you don’t really know till you have a puppy in your house.


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## SlipperyRug (Apr 24, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> FWIW, I know of a breeding similar to this one that was deliberately done recently. The parents did have their hips x-rayed but they weren't sent in to be OFA'd. The owner of the dam and the sire were very choosy on who purchased the pups charging just as much, if not more, for the pups than you would pay at a reputable breeder.
> 
> They wanted to know housing situations, dog / GSD experience, training plans, were there any other dogs in the home and what breeds, where they planned on housing the pup, etc.


I’m not concerned with money. I’d keep them all if I could, but I’m already fostering a heart worm positive dog and my wife is due in May. Have you heard of anyone using a contract to hold people accountable, or at least force them to return the dog before they surrendered it?


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## SlipperyRug (Apr 24, 2016)

Sabis mom said:


> SlipperyRug said:
> 
> 
> > I think the assumptions made here are ridiculous.
> ...


The breeder I got my male from quit responding to my emails with updates years ago, and searching leads me think she passed away. 

I haven’t reached out to the breeder for my female yet. 

I spent about two years working with a trainer when I got my male originally, but I never had the inclination to get him certified in anything particular. I carried those lessons over to the female.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

The reason you should charge is that people are less likely to mistreat or give up a dog they have paid for. Can you find another foster place to for the heart worm dog? You will have your hands full. Is there a dog training club you trust? You can see if they know of any good homes.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

SlipperyRug said:


> I’m not concerned with money. I’d keep them all if I could, but I’m already fostering a heart worm positive dog and my wife is due in May. Have you heard of anyone using a contract to hold people accountable, or at least force them to return the dog before they surrendered it?


You got your hands full. I would think you can do a contract but I am not so sure how binding it would be.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

The pedigree on these dogs should go back to the 1800s, not just the 60s. 

Yes. People have gone to court to enforce a contract. I guess whether you do will depend on how much money you want to spend on lawyers.

Yes, only register with limited registration. Charge a fee for the puppies. People are more likely to take care of something they paid for. These puppies will be a mish-mash of lines (I see WGSL, ASL and working lines in the male) so not sure what market you might find buyers in. Maybe AKC? Do you have any contacts with agility or obedience people?

Are the hips and elbows done for either dog? Any health testing? Maybe look around on breeder websites and look at questionaires for puppy buyers?

ORRRR....you can turn the litter over to a rescue and let them interview adopters and keep the money for the adoption.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

SlipperyRug said:


> I’m not concerned with money. I’d keep them all if I could, but I’m already fostering a heart worm positive dog and my wife is due in May. Have you heard of anyone using a contract to hold people accountable, or at least force them to return the dog before they surrendered it?


A neighbor who raised and bred huskies mentioned to me back in the 70's, that money ensures - to some degree - that a puppy will be valued more by the buyer. He said it like this (and of course you adjust the dollar amount for inflation): "if I sell a puppy for $400, the dog may sometimes come in the house, or it may be just kennelled outside. If I sell a puppy for $600, it's usually kept inside.. But if I sell a puppy for $800-$1000 that puppy sleeps on the owner's bed! LOL! Wisdom that still holds. Money matters!

Secondly I recommend, in addition to any questionnaire you settle on, to go with your gut. I have a good friend who raised and bred Dobermans for years, and she said that when she had a customer who just gave off a bad vibe, she would explain that the "normally priced" puppies where all gone, then set some ridiculously expensive price for the remaining puppies. It was easier than the confrontation that saying outright NO, you can't buy one of my puppies might have caused...

On the contract issue...I've never personally known anyone who was able, or did, enforce any contract restrictions, beyond removing a partial registration...IMHO contract restrictions give you a false sense of security. In-depth screening and follow up are better bets. Ever wonder why breeders sell pups with microchips? LOL!


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

OP, you could always contact a GSD specific rescue and obtain help in placing the pups in homes that have gone through a home check, etc. 

You won't make any money, but you will know that your oops litter is being places responsibly. 
Sheilah


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## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2018)

Bramble said:


> Breeding is about more than just physical health. A dog can be 100% physically healthy, but their temperament may be total unsound. Or Dog A and B may appear temperamentally okay, but when crossed produce temperamentally unsound puppies. You can't just know the two dogs in front of you, you need to know the dog behind those dogs as well.


That's a good point. I'd have to get to know the other dog's temprament, but not sure how I'd know that of her parents'. Maybe the owner of the potential dam would have better info about that.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

We had a poster a while back who was convinced by an unscrupulous person to hand over a litter of 4 week old pups that were then flogged on FB as orphaned rescues.

So if you decide to utilize a rescue for help placing be aware that there are some crappy ones around. No rescue will separate underage pups from mom, nor do they have any authority to remove them.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Please be careful of rescue groups. There are some good ones and some terrible ones. They will speuter your puppies before they are adopted out. Read up on pediatric spay and neuter.


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## SlipperyRug (Apr 24, 2016)

Thanks for advice for real though. At this point we’re gonna hope for a tiny litter, but prepare for a dozen.


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## debr1776 (Feb 4, 2018)

I've always heard that it's dangerous to give away pups, since the person who adopts could turn around and sell the pup to a laboratory for some quick cash. (I don't know if that really happens or if it's just an urban legend.)


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Before worrying about the future puppies, right now I'd focus on your female, because the clock is already ticking.

- If your regular vet isn't experienced with reproductive care, it might be time to find one who is. 

- Make sure her diet is appropriate.

- Carefully re-evaluate what sort of preventative meds she is taking - there is a lot of conversation right now about which flea & tick products are safe for pregnant bitches, and which are not. Make sure everything you are giving her is appropriate.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Oops litters do happen. This doesn't sound like a catastrophic match. 

I would not give pups to a rescue! "Rescue retail" is a big thing, they might have sick pups there from import (ex: southern states) dogs, and I see no reason why you can't find good homes for these pups. 

Bring mom in for an ultrasound at around 28 days, that will tell you how many pups to expect, and confirm that she is healthy. If you chose, you can x-ray a week or less before she is due to confirm puppy numbers. 

Feed her high quality food, particularly the last half of pregnancy, and read up on whelping supplies and the process.

As far as finding homes, as long as you screen carefully, advertise anywhere appropriate. That way you'll have a larger reach and can screen. Microchip the pups in your name, so they can find their way back to you if they ever end up lost or in the shelter system. I'd charge at least $1500 for the pups, to ensure they are valued. AKC register the pups as well, with limited registration. Read up on puppy contracts. Do your research, and make up some solid legal puppy-buyer contracts! 

And, yeah, with an oops litter you're going to get a dozen. It's when you spend a ton of money on stud fees, AI, etc. that you get a small litter or none at all. Maybe Darwin still at work battling artificial selection, I don't know. 

Good luck... and I don't judge this type of oops too harshly as this type of thing could happen to even the most careful- and I know it has happened to some top-name breeders. Better these two than mother-son, or brother-sister. Purebred, pedigreed GSDs have a good chance of finding good forever homes.


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## mnm (Jan 9, 2006)

With no health testing on parents, and no titles on parents, I would suggest the $400-600, price range. They are purebred, and if you are going to register them, then definitely on Limited Registration papers, with micro-chip. Most important thing is to get good placements for each one, with someone who will take care of them and have them altered when they are 18 months to 2 years old.


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## SlipperyRug (Apr 24, 2016)

WIBackpacker said:


> Before worrying about the future puppies, right now I'd focus on your female, because the clock is already ticking.
> 
> - If your regular vet isn't experienced with reproductive care, it might be time to find one who is.
> 
> ...


Right now all my animals eat Victor (performance specifically) 

I’ve read /received differing opinions on how to feed at the end of the pregnancy. She just starting eating more in the last week or so. 

As in she went from a rough 4 to 6 cups to sometimes 10. 

Should I let her eat as much as she wants or should I only allow her a small bit extra until the puppies are born to keep them a little smaller? I understand the thought behind that.. keeping the puppies smaller make things easier for her. 

Aside from when they puppies I’ve always kept they’re food bowls with food in them, and I’ve never had a problem over eating. Not to sound conceited or anything, but they’re weight is perfect. They’re much larger (in height and length) that dogs that have 20/30 lbs over them.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

You might catch the attention of some the breeders on the forum if you want to start a new topic, "Nutrition for Pregnant Female", or something along those lines.

Just a thought, since different people check the forum at different times, and skim topics.


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## SlipperyRug (Apr 24, 2016)

Waiting for the vet to open to get this X-ray done. I’ll be relieved and maybe a little disappointed if she’s having a phantom.


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## SlipperyRug (Apr 24, 2016)

And it’s 7 confirmed with maybe an eighth .. I’ll post the X-rays when they email them to me.


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