# Zebu pet commands



## Baillif

Zebu pet position torture. I didn't push him to failure for the sake of not looking like a jerk, but I think hes pretty much finished. His sport commands are just as accurate but look prettier. I hardly ever train this anymore but he still has it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flGubVRwZYc


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## Kahrg4

Good job Zebu!! And not a single 'lazy' sit amongst them! Cafall still battles that when he gets bored. 

I'm curious, what was the toy reward at the end?


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## Baillif

A pvc pipe. The same one I used to teach him holds for force fetching a long time ago. I just let him take it and carry it around. He's possessive and quirky so he gets off on stupid stuff like that.


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## Kahrg4

Baillif said:


> He's possessive and quirky so he gets off on stupid stuff like that.


Lol! Whatever works for him!


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## eddie1976E

This is great...Love seeing videos like this. Want to work on my boy?


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## Baillif

If you don't mind trecking out to NC sure


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## SuperG

Fake dog, photoshopped.....

Couldn't help myself...

Nice..plus Zebu looks like he is enjoying the performance as well.


SuperG


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## SuperG

Just spent some time in the backyard training the stand from sit...have never done this before. A down to sit...no problem...a sit to a down...no problem..but never from a sit to a stand. Dog got it twice out of dozen tries with some help from me. We mixed it up with playing frisbee, so when the dog hit twice on the behavior, she got the bee in a flash...amongst a hearty " YES".

Baliff, ever since I saw you working Zebu ( I believe ) in the video with a frisbee, I copied your approach or at least tried. I will say, the frisbee sure is a powerful reward in my dog's world.


SuperG


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## eddie1976E

Baillif said:


> If you don't mind trecking out to NC sure


I gone down to NC for a dog once...Remi only needs a week or two with someone who knows what they are doing. I have taken him as far as I can.


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## Baillif

The real engine behind that accuracy is if he gets anything wrong he gets punished. It isn't the reward. The reward was more involved when we are play practicing or when he was learning. He isn't learning anymore he has known it for a long time now. He is now just held accountable for his behavior. Any error is punished every time with as close to 100% consistency as I can.

Does he look suppressed? Does he look afraid? Nope. He has understanding and confidence within that understanding and even with the consequence of failure being certain punishment he doesn't fret, he doesn't cower, he just gets it right.


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## SuperG

What do you use as the punishment ?

SuperG


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## Baillif

Anything as long as he doesn't find it tolerable and wants to avoid it. Usually truth be told I cup his head with my left hand and slap him in the side of the head with my right hand, but OH GOD NEVER HIT YOUR DOG YOULL RUIN THE RELATIONSHIP!!!!1!ONE!


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## SuperG

Baillif said:


> Anything as long as he doesn't find it tolerable and wants to avoid it. Usually truth be told I cup his head with my left hand and slap him in the side of the head with my right hand, but OH GOD NEVER HIT YOUR DOG YOULL RUIN THE RELATIONSHIP!!!!1!ONE!


So kind of like a Three Stooges headshot....hmmmmm..I can see it....sounds much less in 'severity" to a pop on the prong but still gets the message through.


SuperG


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## Baillif

It's like that now because we have relationship and he knows where things could go if the lighter stuff proves ineffective to curb the problem. Intensity in punishment is not as important as clarity and understanding. That does imply at some point I had to take it to him. That did happen and does happen sometimes but it's usually not position related. Usually it is a very matter fact drama free thing.


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## SuperG

Well, I default back to my original response...."Nice..plus Zebu looks like he is enjoying the performance as well.".... to me and this is just my observation....but Zebu looks like he is getting satisfaction out of making his master satisfied...not out of fear...but with an approach which is very conducive to the entire process. With some dogs you can sense a bit of forced capitulation...not the case in the video.


SuperG


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## Baillif

The forced capitulation thing is more something you see when there is clarity lacking somewhere in the process. When you first start putting pressure on a dog they all look like that, but once they become clear and there is something in it for them all that stuff clears up. The skillful avoidance of punishment when they get confident becomes almost a game for them.


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## VTGirlT

Get a line up of 10 random humans and Zebu, i can guarantee you, some of those humans would do the wrong command during those two minutes! LOL! 
Great job Zebu!


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## Pax8

VTGirlT said:


> Get a line up of 10 random humans and Zebu, i can guarantee you, some of those humans would do the wrong command during those two minutes! LOL!
> Great job Zebu!


Right! I play a simon says game at the end of my training classes. And the dogs are right 100% of the time. It's the humans that get flustered or mixed up with what they're supposed to do!


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## Chip18

SuperG said:


> Just spent some time in the backyard training the stand from sit...have never done this before. A down to sit...no problem...a sit to a down...no problem..but never from a sit to a stand. Dog got it twice out of dozen tries with some help from me. We mixed it up with playing frisbee, so when the dog hit twice on the behavior, she got the bee in a flash...amongst a hearty " YES".
> 
> Baliff, ever since I saw you working Zebu ( I believe ) in the video with a frisbee, I copied your approach or at least tried. I will say, the frisbee sure is a powerful reward in my dog's world.
> 
> 
> SuperG


Oh Ok so I'm not the only one that had never seen the "Stand" thing before??


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## Baillif

I never teach stands to pet dogs because as a command for pets it is near useless. It is a ringsport thing. Teaching pets to cycle positions is almost pointless. 

The most interesting thing about position cycling is when the dog first starts out they see the commands as actions and not positions. That's why a sit from a down and a sit from a stand have to be taught separately as if they were two different commands. At some point though the dog comes to an understanding that they are positions. 

I can prove this because he can cycle from playing dead on his side or doing a bow or being rolled over on his back or whatever into a sit down or stand without ever needing to be taught how to get to there. He can interestingly enough cycle into a play dead from a sit down or stand as if it were a position too. Cognitively as an exercise it has uses to clarify concepts for them.


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## crickets

Nice video and great job Zebu!

I've taught my 2yr old the stand (he's purely a pet dog) and he's the first I have taught it too. There was no particular reason I taught it, but it has been so handy! Grooming is the first thing that comes to mind, but having him "stand" for me has so much value to me, I'm teaching it to my 4 month old.


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## Gwenhwyfair

First, I watched the video in the other thread and I'm so glad it's cold out and you are bored. You come on here and edumicate us. It's a good thing. . . Though I still think you're being too hard on poor M.E. Hehehe

Clearly you are a very effective and gifted trainer and I use a prong ...would use an e collar if needed (and "I" was trained how to use it)....

But...I just can't hit a dog with my hands. I was raised by parents who did not treat dogs like "babies", they were old fashioned and matter of fact with the dogs, yet even they said never use your hands, this was reinforced when training with horses for years and years. 

I've seen head shy animals too (dogs and horses). 

I know you may cite a lack of consistency and perhaps that is part of it but it's just one of those things that to me it feels so wrong and can go so wrong that I have to say, nope don't hit your dog with your hands.


(I can see many a person getting bit because they do it at the wrong time with the wrong dog etc.)




Baillif said:


> Anything as long as he doesn't find it tolerable and wants to avoid it. Usually truth be told I cup his head with my left hand and slap him in the side of the head with my right hand, but OH GOD NEVER HIT YOUR DOG YOULL RUIN THE RELATIONSHIP!!!!1!ONE!


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## Baillif

Bart Bellon once said the mark of a good trainer was being able to take a stick and with that same stick punish the dog, direct the dog, play a game with the dog, pet the dog and at the end of the day have the dog emotionally neutral to that stick.

A stick, a hand, or a foot it makes no difference if you are clear.


As for doing it to the wrong dog...don't do it to the wrong dog unless you know how to make the wrong dog the right dog.


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## KathrynApril

Nice video! Always enjoy reading your POV.


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## Gwenhwyfair

O.K. I hear ya, I do.

But....to not hit an animal, especially in the face, has been impressed on me from many trainers from different schools of training that I think there is some wisdom in that warning.

It's just not something I would recommend to the average pet owner. I have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. Probably because I beat myself up for being inconsistent and slow but I'm consistent and super fast compared to a lot of average Joe dog owners....

Thanks for the PM also.





Baillif said:


> Bart Bellon once said the mark of a good trainer was being able to take a stick and with that same stick punish the dog, direct the dog, play a game with the dog, pet the dog and at the end of the day have the dog emotionally neutral to that stick.
> 
> A stick, a hand, or a foot it makes no difference if you are clear.
> 
> 
> As for doing it to the wrong dog...don't do it to the wrong dog unless you know how to make the wrong dog the right dog.


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## Gwenhwyfair

That aside..

Love the video, love Zebu, he's clearly enjoying himself.

Smitty has super food drive, he's got a solid sit and down, no stand though (my trainer trains stands), it's rainy and cold so I'm going to work with Smitty and see if I can get him even a little close to Zebu's performance. 

Then try to post a video here a little later!


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## Baillif

If you're not comfortable punishing your dog for stuff like that you don't really have to. For a pet there's no problem with just bugging them for it (unless it's something you really need like a recall or aggression related) You might not ever finish it but it's not like you get points off for helping your dog in real life circumstances. If you don't know how to correct a dog fairly clearly and consistently go find out how.

I'm posting stuff like this because things people consider so taboo in training are highly misunderstood and if you never take the time to understand them then you're missing something big.


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## SuperG

Baillif said:


> Teaching pets to cycle positions is almost pointless.


"almost"...but...it seems the more I teach my dog...the more we connect...and the more we connect as a team, the overall relationship is strengthened. Don't know if that makes any sense but every time my dog learns another "trick" it seems to open more doors for the two of us....Now, if I can cure the dog's leash reactivity around strange dogs, I actually think I could use all these learned obedience skills she has acquired and pursue obedience trials....

Yes, I need to post a video as well ( maybe this spring when it's not 20 below).
She's a regular "backyard Einstein" at this point...however much proofing needs to be done yet.

SuperG


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## Cassidy's Mom

Baillif said:


> The most interesting thing about position cycling is when the dog first starts out they see the commands as actions and not positions. That's why a sit from a down and a sit from a stand have to be taught separately as if they were two different commands. At some point though the dog comes to an understanding that they are positions.


SO true. Many people train a sit from a stand then are baffled why the dog just lays there and looks at them when they cue a sit from a down. To _us_ it's the same thing, but to a dog it's not, not at first at least. That's why I disagree with you about position cycling being useless for pet dogs. Even if there's no particular need, it's still valuable from that standpoint. 

And as SuperG mentioned, any training deepens the connection and builds the relationship, even the "just for fun" stuff, like cute tricks. One of my friends takes his GSDs to canine circus classes. There isn't any particular practical application for those skills for most of the people who take the class, except that it's a fun activity for people and dogs to enjoy together. https://bayareadogtrainer.wordpress.com


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## Baillif

I said almost pointless. From a practical perspective it isn't that useful. Sits and downs are kind of pointless to a certain extent anyway. If a dog stays who cares if he's sitting or standing or in a down or if he switches from one to another when he's doing it? Just don't go anywhere or if you're at a door just don't go through.

Tricks are fun obedience helps build the team and relationship aspect between you and your dog but it isn't necessary to have a good dog. A good dog basically doesn't run away (doesn't even have to recall as long as it sticks around) doesn't blow you off, is house broken, doesn't act annoying and doesn't tear up your stuff or get aggressive. 

On the flip side if he knows all those things you can call him a demo dog and he becomes a tax write off


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## Nigel

We use stand in rally, however I have to point in front of her while giving the command and this can be judged as luring. I need to fade the pointing out and other hand signals too. My problem is I frequently spit out the wrong command on the course and it's been the hand signals keeping Zoe from getting confused.


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## Gwenhwyfair

*"I"* am comfortable using corrections/prongs and such, I do and have. For me personally it's only the hitting in the face that I get uncomfortable with, just that one point. Remember I'm the one who got in all kinds of trouble for suggesting Karen Pryor use a prong on dolphins. :help:

In using 'you' below that is a general 'you'? Yes?

As for dog owners in general (see bolded below) for a lot of them popping a dog with a flat collar is taboo....let alone hitting them in the face.

I'm working on - correcting dogs does NOT = evil human - general aspect right now and that's hard enough because any kind of punishment is considered taboo. Since I work with these sort of people day in and day out I'm trusting my instincts that hitting a dog by hand in their face isn't going to help the cause. I totally respect the general principle, but when dealing with the general pet owning public it's got too much potential for backfiring on a couple of levels.

In bold, there is a lot of what I call 'disempowered pet owners' out there. They are so deep into NO punishment/corrections that they can't do anything with their dogs, I know.

btw are you teaching this to your pet clients? If so how are they reacting? 

(also my video is uploading right now....LOL!)



Baillif said:


> If you're not comfortable punishing your dog for stuff like that you don't really have to. For a pet there's no problem with just bugging them for it (unless it's something you really need like a recall or aggression related) You might not ever finish it but it's not like you get points off for helping your dog in real life circumstances. If you don't know how to correct a dog fairly clearly and consistently go find out how.
> 
> *I'm posting stuff like this because things people consider so taboo in training are highly misunderstood* and if you never take the time to understand them then you're missing something big.


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## mcavan

*Teaching stand*

lhczth (Lisa) and I teach PK classes and we actually do teach stand as to me there are some handy uses for stand, easier to wipe muddy feet when standing, easier for groomers when they are working parts of a dog where sitting will not work, for some dogs easier at the vet to listen to heart rate etc. LOL I know for me it is MUCH simpler to get a skijoring harness on an excited GSD when they know stand when you are trying to stuff their front legs into the harness!
We do a little of what we call the 'sit, down stand" game in class and many people really seem to enjoy it. I also hope to compete in some combination of AKC obedience, rally, IPO so knowing "stand" is critical, from the stand in Motion, to the stand for exam in Novice, the moving stand in Utility, and various parts of Rally as well...sending my dog to a toy I spend a lot of time having him, sit, down, call off, stand from a gallop and when he is correct he gets released to his toy he is usually 20-30 feet away from me. This keeps him very motivated, really keeps him listening as it is always different sequence and for him being "wrong" is calling back to me, sending him and trying again..he is very rarely wrong at this point in time as he is going to be 2 in June..Lisa has to hear about all his "training"/playing daily as he is from her F litter!


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## Gwenhwyfair

All righty. 

With out further ado.

Rusty slow and inconsistent old me and Wonder Dog ~ Smitty.

Now this is "REAL" Pet Obedience commands. :blush: (yup, I screwed up a few times....)

https://vimeo.com/120295633


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## Gwenhwyfair

That bad or that good?

Oh and I remembered why I said 'sitz' twice. I wanted to proof if he was going off of routine or not...not. I swear my short term memory these days. :crazy: *sigh*

Anyhow, Zebu doesn't know pet commands! He's way beyond that. 

O.k. back to the chat room.......and/or vacuuming leaf litter dragged in by the fuzzy-wuzzy Aussie.


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## Baillif

Zebus English commands are all pet but I do enforce pet. The French sport commands are charged with expectation and occur snappy and he doesn't drift at all. it looked more formal because I was facing him and he was being asked to cycle. His super informal hip flop down is "lay down" or "relax". 

Your dog looks good. Don't need to feel bad about not marking known behaviors they know they got it right and you can fade the help out. I try to trick mine sometimes to see if they throw something silly.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Thank you. Smitty knows English commands too. 

He's my fun happy goober dog, but he's also much faster then Ilda. He's getting older and has slowed down some. So he's been great for teaching me to pay closer attention to timing (and consistency!). I had a heck of a time getting him motivated at first. He didn't care about praise or treats. He would totally blow me off AND he knew what sit/down were. I tried corrections but a couple of times he showed his resentment.....he's got that 'side' to him. 

So here's what I did, this may sound crazy, but I tied him out (on a flat collar) while I worked with Ilda. He saw me working with her (she has a desire to please) she was getting treats and praise and attention, that was our break through. I did proof with a prong later on.




Baillif said:


> Zebus English commands are all pet but I do enforce pet. The French sport commands are charged with expectation and occur snappy and he doesn't drift at all. it looked more formal because I was facing him and he was being asked to cycle. His super informal hip flop down is "lay down" or "relax".
> 
> Your dog looks good. Don't need to feel bad about not marking known behaviors they know they got it right and you can fade the help out. I try to trick mine sometimes to see if they throw something silly.


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## crickets

I really enjoy the tone of this thread. Very informative, lots to think about but no animosity! Very refreshing!

Now I need to learn to upload a video so I can show my boy off a little bit!

Thanks yal for this thread!


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## Chip18

Granted postion cycling may have "limited" usefulness for the pet world but it's still cool!

I see it as alot more useful than balancing cookies on a dogs nose?


So with my next dog. I'm all in! Course that next dog is gonna be a Boxer...so it might be awhile!


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## Blitzkrieg1

Makes sense. Cant always have a prong, leash, e collar or whatever on the dog. Sometimes a smack is the best tool at hand to issue a correction. If they know the correction can come at anytime regardless of the gear they have on the reliability can only improve.


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## Baillif

Plus the dog never becomes collar wise because he knows even if the collar isn't on the consequence is just going to come from somewhere else.

Sometimes the collar might be on and it comes from somewhere else anyway.

As a side note. Anybody want to buy Cranks dad?

Only $50,000

Malinois Ot Vitosha - Two Time World Champion Dogs


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## Pax8

Baillif said:


> Plus the dog never becomes collar wise because he knows even if the collar isn't on the consequence is just going to come from somewhere else.
> 
> Sometimes the collar might be on and it comes from somewhere else anyway.
> 
> As a side note. Anybody want to buy Cranks dad?
> 
> Only $50,000
> 
> Malinois Ot Vitosha - Two Time World Champion Dogs


How about a kidney? 

Nah, that dog's worth more than all my organs combined.


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## Baillif

I've been keeping Crank's bitework a surprise. He just turned 9 months old yesterday. There will be video soon though and it will look awfully familiar


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## MyHans-someBoy

Baillif said:


> I've been keeping Crank's bitework a surprise. He just turned 9 months old yesterday. There will be video soon though and it will look awfully familiar



Good.
I've been jonesing for some Crank.
The pup, of course.


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## SuperG

Chip18 said:


> I see it as alot more useful than balancing cookies on a dogs nose?



Ummmmm...how about position changes WHILE balancing cookies on their nose ????


SuperG


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## Gwenhwyfair

Are you teaching this technique to your pet clients? I asked this earlier.

I'm pretty sure I know the answer......

What is more telling is, why?

(Rhetorical of course.)



Baillif said:


> Plus the dog never becomes collar wise because he knows even if the collar isn't on the consequence is just going to come from somewhere else.
> 
> Sometimes the collar might be on and it comes from somewhere else anyway.
> 
> As a side note. Anybody want to buy Cranks dad?
> 
> Only $50,000
> 
> Malinois Ot Vitosha - Two Time World Champion Dogs


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