# Not sure how to handle this behavior



## Mullybirds (Jun 22, 2021)

I have a 9month old female (spayed) working-line GSD. I am not a trainer and have never owned a GSD and this dog has been pretty stressful for us. Nonetheless, I am doing my best with her and have become quite attached. However, there are still issues. Since she was a puppy, she's had resource guarding issues over items she steals. We continue to work with her on this, and have gotten advice from a few professional trainers. She is getting better but it's a constant state of training. And it's actually not the issue that I am writing- but wanted to share some background in case it is related to behavior I am now noticing.

We have taken several obedience classes, she is working on her CGC and doing some introductory nosework. Generally, she is very well behaved. She likes people and most dogs. No leash reactivity. On occasion, she has growled when my husband tries to take her leash off in a different room than we normally take it off in. We have treated her since she was a puppy while we grab the collar, take the leash off, etc. Anyway, she had never displayed that behavior to me .... until today. 

The series of events leading to the issue I am writing about: First of all, I noticed some favoring of her front leg- so I do have a vet appointment tomorrow. She also had some runny stool this morning and I heard her stomach grumble. But she's working line and wants to work no matter how she is feeling. So, I took her to a store this afternoon just so she could get some smells and experiences in without doing a lot of physical activity & to tire her out. We got home, and we walked around the yard a bit with her leash on (we have no fence.) She found something disgusting and wanted to bring it in- so she displayed guarding behavior. I went in to get my usual bag of tricks (cheese) with her on the leash. I knew I couldn't take her leash off at that moment because she was guarding the object. So I go about my usual routine...it appears to be working and she brings me the resource guarding object eventually to get her treat. Awesome. Now I can take off the leash. NOPE...she growled as I did it. Ok. So I take her back outside to start the process over. Go to let her in and take the leash off as normal, and she growled and almost bit this time. It was her nap time, and figured she was tired so told her to go to her crate. She ran to the crate, leash on, got in, then growled as I was shutting the locks.

This has never happened before. So...wondering, is she just a bitch? lol. Do you think it's because she was tired, potentially sore, and in general didn't feel good? I can't think of anything I did out of our normal routine. Any ideas? Advice? Anyone want her (I'm kidding!)?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

It’s probably due to not feeling well. Address that first, then once she is well, work very diligently on changing her behavior.

I dislike then concept of resource guarding because it’s too easy to dump bad behaviors into that category and then not fix them. For me the line in the sand is growling at me or family members. It is never Ok. I address it firmly, loudly and with force if necessary to make sure it never happens again. Putting teeth on us is also not alright, so we don’t get a growl escalating to a bite. They get a lot of options and decisions and choices but never when it comes to how they behave toward us.

You can desensitize her to her leash by putting it on and taking it off hundreds of times. That should become as normal as going outside to pee or drinking water. Not a big deal at all.


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## Mullybirds (Jun 22, 2021)

LuvShepherds said:


> It’s probsbly due to not feeling well. Address that first, then once she is well, work very diligently on changing her behavior.
> 
> I dislike then concept of resource guarding because it’s too easy to dump bad behaviors into that category and then not fix them. For me the line in the sand is growling at me or family members. It is never Ok. I address it firmly, loudly and with force if necessary to make sure it never happens again. Putting teeth on us is also not alright, so we don’t get a growl escalating to a bite. They get a lot of options and decisions and choices but never when it comes to how they behave toward us.


How would you recommend working on that? I am not sure how to approach it. Thank you.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Mullybirds said:


> How would you recommend working on that? I am not sure how to approach it. Thank you.


Sorry, I added in my solution while you were typing.

You can desensitize her to her leash by putting it on and taking it off hundreds of times. That should become as normal as going outside to pee or drinking water. Not a big deal at all.

Dont discount pain as a cause for bad behavior. She may have a low pain threshold.


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## Mullybirds (Jun 22, 2021)

LuvShepherds said:


> Sorr
> 
> Sorry, I added in my solution while you were typing.
> 
> ...


Thank you!

- As far as putting the leash off and on a hundred time...well, we do this literally every time we take her outside because we do not have a fenced yard (on about an acre on a creek.). She is VERY used to the leash. Very. 

-Her pain threshold is very high I suspect. Hours after she got home from her spay she was running around and acting like nothing was wrong. And working line typically do have a high pain tolerance. However, I have some leftover pain meds from her spay, and I am giving those to her now. And we will see what the vet says tomorrow.

-I have been told by a few trainers to not address her growling in regards to guarding issues with any type of yelling/loud/harsh reprimands. Maybe this is wrong.... but I have understood that it's better if they growl, so there is a warning- but that a harsh reprimand tells them not to growl and go straight to bite.
I am not doubting you, but this is why I have not addressed her this way. So would you have given a sharp, "NO" when she growled as I attempted to unclip the leash?


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Quick question, why did you acquire a female working line GSD? 
Do you have experience with large working line breeds and their training/exercise requirements?


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## drparker151 (Apr 10, 2020)

I think the base issue is one of bonding, trust, respect. 

Did you ever teach a drop it or leave it command? So at first I would not be reaching in to take something from a dog seriously guarding that I didn't know well. I would be issuing a drop it and correcting none compliance with the command, Then move few feet away and issue a sit command while I pick up the object, if there is movement or growling again correction for not sitting nicely. 

I don't want to compete for seriously guarded "precious". 

First command I taught ours was drop it, so now I can say drop it and very rarely have to correct like when she finds a squished frog. 

We also practice me reaching in her mouth and touching her teeth. 

Does she growl at any other time giving you an opportunity to work on correcting the growl where you don't have remove an item also?


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## Buckelke (Sep 4, 2019)

yes, you definitely want to work on how she is feeling before proceeding. As far as the resource guarding goes, you indicated you reward her with cheese when she does that. Did I get that right? Do you see where rewarding her is encouraging her to guard more 'stuff'? Does she have toys? LOTS of toys. All kinds. More than she can possibly guard. 

She IS a German Shepherd and, I know both Ellie and Elke had/have order in their lives. Their trains are always on time, if you catch my drift. Elke cannot go out without a toy in her mouth, it is absolutely non-negotiable and all trips outside must be at specific pre-determined times. She gives her humans no peace when they do not obey her commands. Perhaps that is why your girl had difficulty with her stupid human removing her leash in the WRONG room. 

We taught Jake to 'put the toy down' and it worked on toys and bunnies. Everything he put in his mouth was a 'toy'. 

Please don't take this wrong, but your German Shepherd is smarter than you. Or me. Or almost anybody. They appoint themselves the leader and too bad for you. 

I think, in time, you will both adapt to each other and become more tolerant of each other, she's still young. Back off a bit and let her find her ways a bit more. Maybe she's just rebelling against so many 'rules'. These girls only like the rules they make. With maturity, they see rules are not so bad.


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## Mullybirds (Jun 22, 2021)

WNGD said:


> Quick question, why did you acquire a female working line GSD?
> Do you have experience with large working line breeds and their training/exercise requirements?


We wanted a very intelligent and protective dog. We have raised large dogs, but not GSDs. I had a GSD as a kid. Not working line. We spent a lot of time researching the breed and talked to a reputable breeder (very much researched -but perhaps in retrospect not a breeder I'd use again) and DID speak with her about what we were looking for. In previous threads, I have said this was not a great decision- but instead of giving the dog up, we are working with her diligently, reading constantly, and have had 3 different trainers. 
Instead of getting onto me for getting the wrong breed, know that I am doing what I can and trust me, she is 99% of the time very well behaved which is why this seemed odd. 

SO - Any suggestions? - as this was what I was asking for originally.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

You can be firm without being harsh. I tend to use very strong indications to my dogs when something is not acceptable. But they are also very tuned to me and would never growl at me. So it’s a somewhat different situation.


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## Mullybirds (Jun 22, 2021)

drparker151 said:


> I think the base issue is one of bonding, trust, respect.
> 
> Did you ever teach a drop it or leave it command? So at first I would not be reaching in to take something from a dog seriously guarding that I didn't know well. I would be issuing a drop it and correcting none compliance with the command, Then move few feet away and issue a sit command while I pick up the object, if there is movement or growling again correction for not sitting nicely.
> 
> ...


She knows out and leave it. Yes. Do you have experience with resource guarding? Because she is in a different zone when she guards, and there is a different approach we have been taught by trainers. There are lots of steps to resource guarding that we have worked on...we are at the point where she will bring me the object to trade for cheese. But again- this was not a guarding issue-I don't think. I wanted to present that in case it is related.
In regards to touching her mouth- I brush her teeth and constantly reach and touch her teeth...ears...legs...everything. 
She has NEVER growled at me before for removing the leash.


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## Mullybirds (Jun 22, 2021)

Buckelke said:


> yes, you definitely want to work on how she is feeling before proceeding. As far as the resource guarding goes, you indicated you reward her with cheese when she does that. Did I get that right? Do you see where rewarding her is encouraging her to guard more 'stuff'? Does she have toys? LOTS of toys. All kinds. More than she can possibly guard.
> 
> She IS a German Shepherd and, I know both Ellie and Elke had/have order in their lives. Their trains are always on time, if you catch my drift. Elke cannot go out without a toy in her mouth, it is absolutely non-negotiable and all trips outside must be at specific pre-determined times. She gives her humans no peace when they do not obey her commands. Perhaps that is why your girl had difficulty with her stupid human removing her leash in the WRONG room.
> 
> ...


In regards to guarding..... she guards objects she steals. I can stick my hand in her food and she's fine. We have worked with professional trainers on the resource guarding-, and she is much better and has made tremendous progress. I threw it out there to give you a history of her behavior. In regards to toys, we keep a few on the floor and the rest are out of her reach. And yes, she is smarter than me...totally! This is the first time she growled at me. We are tight and I have been the one training her, via classes and professional trainers. I do believe she respects me. My issue was today...and perhaps it was due to her not feeling well. When she was a small puppy, she was downright mean when over tired.


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## Mullybirds (Jun 22, 2021)

LuvShepherds said:


> You can be firm without being harsh. I tend to use very strong indications to my dogs when something is not acceptable. But they are also very tuned to me and would never growl at me. So it’s a somewhat different situation.


I am firm without being harsh. She is obedience trained- and working on Canine Good Citizen. She does what I tell her. Engagement with her is there...as she is always tuned into me. That's why I thought today was odd...she has never growled at me.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

I don't have advice.
I do wonder why for her leash removal triggers an emotional response. Do you know why she has conflict around the leash?
Does she get anytime free running offleash?


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## Mullybirds (Jun 22, 2021)

Apex1 said:


> I don't have advice.
> I do wonder why for her leash removal triggers an emotional response. Do you know why she has such conflict around the leash?
> Does she get anytime free running offleash?


Thank you. This is getting to the meat and bones of the issue. I don't understand her response to leash removal. She has never had an issue that I am aware of, and we take if off/on all the time. There have been maybe 3 times when she growled at my husband as he was taking the leash off...and we chalked it up to him being in a different room. 
Your last question is interesting.... she doesn't get a lot of time off leash outside. Probably 2 times a week. Perhaps this is the issue? She does however have a very long lead...like 100 ft. So she does get plenty of running around time. And she gets to swim in our backyard creek a lot (Texas...so pretty warm year round)


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## Mullybirds (Jun 22, 2021)

Now I am wondering if she was resource guarding her leash...she was in that "mode" so perhaps that was the issue. Also, she was tired and possibly in pain- exacerbating the issue. ????


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

Exactly what I was going to suggest the crate as well. I have a slightly injured dog right now who isn't grumpy with me but is with the other house dog. 

My older dog was also an a** as a young dog when he needed a nap we called him a devil dog. He doesn't have an off switch naturally. I'm pretty sure I understand you on that point.

I'm inexperienced. I do like to ask questions and problem slove. I get curious and have had my own challenges with Apex. 

I only know a little about resource guarding. I mean no offense but from what I know it's some what of a learned behavior. Working through that conflict is tricky I'm sure.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Mullybirds said:


> I am firm without being harsh. She is obedience trained- and working on Canine Good Citizen. She does what I tell her. Engagement with her is there...as she is always tuned into me. That's why I thought today was odd...she has never growled at me.


It sounds like it’s pain related. Once she is better you can see if the behavior continues. You have trainers. Have they seen her do this?


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## Bknmaizey (Sep 16, 2019)

Do you have any higher value treats beyond cheese? If it’s a resource guarding issue vis a vis the leash as you guys are talking about, it might be that you need to step up the reward to trade for the leash if the leash is the new high value object. 

Otherwise, our pup is always more mouthy when over-tired. Could see how over-tired and/or in pain or discomfort could lead to this behavior.

Also, to clarify, are you saying taking off the leash or taking off the collar? Could switching to taking off the collar help if it’s specifically detaching the leash? Or if it’s taking off the collar, then maybe try detaching the leash? Could be useful in figuring out the specific trigger.


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## Mullybirds (Jun 22, 2021)

Apex1 said:


> Exactly what I was going to suggest the crate as well. I have a slightly injured dog right now who isn't grumpy with me but is with the other house dog.
> 
> My older dog was also an a** as a young dog when he needed a nap we called him a devil dog. He doesn't have an off switch naturally. I'm pretty sure I understand you on that point.
> 
> ...


Resource guarding is very instinctual. Sometimes genetic, sometimes caused by a large litter-not a lot of food, or other reasons. We discovered it very shortly after we got her. 

Thanks for your input...very appreciated!


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## Mullybirds (Jun 22, 2021)

LuvShepherds said:


> It sounds like it’s pain related. Once she is better you can see if the behavior continues. You have trainers. Have they seen her do this?


 "Have they seen her do this?"
Resource guarding -> Yes
What happened today -> No


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## drparker151 (Apr 10, 2020)

You say it is only items she steals. So she is resource guarding but just items she considers extremely high value and does not want to lose. 

"My precious"

When she growls at leash remove is she also protecting her precious item, could be she seeing the reach in as you trying to take her item away instead of a simple leash removal?

Do you have any videos of these?


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## Mullybirds (Jun 22, 2021)

Bknmaizey said:


> Do you have any higher value treats beyond cheese? If it’s a resource guarding issue vis a vis the leash as you guys are talking about, it might be that you need to step up the reward to trade for the leash if the leash is the new high value object.
> 
> Otherwise, our pup is always more mouthy when over-tired. Could see how over-tired and/or in pain or discomfort could lead to this behavior.
> 
> Also, to clarify, are you saying taking off the leash or taking off the collar? Could switching to taking off the collar help if it’s specifically detaching the leash? Or if it’s taking off the collar, then maybe try detaching the leash? Could be useful in figuring out the specific trigger.


Taking off the leash. And cheese...especially very stinky cheese...is very high value for her believe it or not! She eats a mostly raw diet, so cheese is a treat 

Interesting ideas...worth a try! Thank you


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Pain does weird things to dogs. Get that sorted out and come back if there are still problems.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Mullybirds said:


> Resource guarding is very instinctual. Sometimes genetic, sometimes caused by a large litter-not a lot of food, or other reasons. We discovered it very shortly after we got her.
> 
> Thanks for your input...very appreciated!


If you want help with resource guarding, you will need to post video. It's a complex thing and small cues matter.


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## Mullybirds (Jun 22, 2021)

drparker151 said:


> You say it is only items she steals. So she is resource guarding but just items she considers extremely high value and does not want to lose.
> 
> "My precious"
> 
> ...


No videos... it has happened maybe 3 times with my husband. One time (today) with me. BUT yes, I was considering this - resource guarding her leash. Her leash = time outside and mostly fun. 
And yes, the "reach in" may be an issue. 

Thank you for this.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

Since a leash is not a resource I think she is actually _Possessive aggression_ is described as “aggression (threat/challenge/contest) that is consistently directed toward another individual who approaches or attempts to obtain a non-food object or toy that the aggressor possesses or to which the aggressor controls access.

I'd be curious if a dog who is breed high in possession would need to be trained differently then a dog who is resource guarding. I wonder how much is conflict with handler?


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## Mullybirds (Jun 22, 2021)

Apex1 said:


> Since a leash is not a resource I think she is actually _Possessive aggression_ is described as “aggression (threat/challenge/contest) that is consistently directed toward another individual who approaches or attempts to obtain a non-food object or toy that the aggressor possesses or to which the aggressor controls access.
> 
> I'd be curious if a dog who is breed high in possession would need to be trained differently then a dog who is resource guarding. I wonder how much is conflict with handler?


I am going to put a pin in this and see if her pain led to her behavior today. Thanks for all advice!


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## herojig (Apr 3, 2013)

Bknmaizey said:


> step up the reward to trade for the leash


That would be my suggestion for the OP, once any health-related behavior is ruled out. I've noticed some dogs understand _*drop*_ well enough, but others don't get it. Those usually understand _*trade *_better, over time. Of course, you have to have something better to trade for than the leash, and in this case, that's a tough one! The leash is always of importance and I'd bet a magical object to dog. So what I would do in this case, for leash, is to pretend the "lease" is no big deal. Leave multiple copies of them lying around everywhere, and pick one up randomly to use when you go out. If opportune, I'd let this leash-obsessed dog play a few seconds of tug-of-war, and then I'd walk away uninterested, as it's not worth my time. You may go thru a few leashes if urs is a chewer, but even then, the leash is magic so not something dog wants to shred unnecessarily. Sooner or later the magic of the leash becomes less interesting (i.e. less exciting), especially if YOU are less focused on them. THEN, you can *trade* for cheese or anything else yummy or even playful, like a dog toy. Well, best!


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## SMcN (Feb 12, 2021)

Mullybirds said:


> I have a 9month old female (spayed) working-line GSD.
> 
> On occasion, she has growled when my husband tries to take her leash off in a different room than we normally take it off in. We have treated her since she was a puppy while we grab the collar, take the leash off, etc. Anyway, she had never displayed that behavior to me .... until today.
> 
> ...


From your saying your dog has growled at your husband when he tried to take the leash off in another room. This sounds like before the demonstrated soreness and, possibly, feeling off with stomach issues? You also said 'you grab' the collar. Is that an accurate depiction of the movement? For instance, our puppy has always been put on a sit for getting the leash on or off so there is no conflict. 

Honestly, I think a dog should be fine with putting a leash on or off no matter what room you are in, where you are, what time of day. That can be a critical safety necessity. I also am not a fan of letting a dog call the shots for scheduling in the house. The dog needs to be adaptable to whatever is going on. Life happens and sometimes things just can't go according to plan. I don't want my dog to have a total melt down if that happens.

We have a young pup also and getting overtired definitely affects their temperament. In our case, she goes ballistic rather than aggressive and just needs that 'down' time, which sometimes needs to be enforced. 

Just curious, but why have you had 3 trainers in such a short period of time?


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## Mullybirds (Jun 22, 2021)

SMcN said:


> From your saying your dog has growled at your husband when he tried to take the leash off in another room. This sounds like before the demonstrated soreness and, possibly, feeling off with stomach issues? You also said 'you grab' the collar. Is that an accurate depiction of the movement? For instance, our puppy has always been put on a sit for getting the leash on or off so there is no conflict.
> 
> Honestly, I think a dog should be fine with putting a leash on or off no matter what room you are in, where you are, what time of day. That can be a critical safety necessity. I also am not a fan of letting a dog call the shots for scheduling in the house. The dog needs to be adaptable to whatever is going on. Life happens and sometimes things just can't go according to plan. I don't want my dog to have a total melt down if that happens.
> 
> ...


"grab her collar"- when she was a pup, one of our classes indicated you "grab the collar" and treat... play with her ears...treat... spread her paws apart...treat. Etc. You get the idea. I don't "GRAB her collar" But if the situation should arise and I need to grab her collar, she needs to be okay with that. And she is.

Hey... I agree with you! I don't want her determining which room we should be taking the leash off in. I also don't want her stealing my crap and guarding it. I agree that she should be fine when we put a leash on wherever we are... and generally she is. 4 times, she was not. And you are correct, the 3 times she did with my husband were not due to soreness, etc. I am trying to figure out what is going on... and do think it is possibly guarding behavior after lots of thought.

3 trainers: One trainer was not familiar with working line GSDs. Show line and working line = 2 different beasts. Not sure people get that unless they have a working line. So basically, I didn't need, "here's how we teach sit." The next trainer was really just a behaviorist to go over her resource guarding issue and help with that. She was a one time thing. Our 3rd trainer is someone very familiar with working line GSDs and actually has one herself that is a service dog. We've been using her here and there since November. Unfortunately, she's been out of contact for a bit because her mom needs some care. I would normally ask her about this... and intend to once she's back.


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## Mullybirds (Jun 22, 2021)

herojig said:


> That would be my suggestion for the OP, once any health-related behavior is ruled out. I've noticed some dogs understand _*drop*_ well enough, but others don't get it. Those usually understand _*trade *_better, over time. Of course, you have to have something better to trade for than the leash, and in this case, that's a tough one! The leash is always of importance and I'd bet a magical object to dog. So what I would do in this case, for leash, is to pretend the "lease" is no big deal. Leave multiple copies of them lying around everywhere, and pick one up randomly to use when you go out. If opportune, I'd let this leash-obsessed dog play a few seconds of tug-of-war, and then I'd walk away uninterested, as it's not worth my time. You may go thru a few leashes if urs is a chewer, but even then, the leash is magic so not something dog wants to shred unnecessarily. Sooner or later the magic of the leash becomes less interesting (i.e. less exciting), especially if YOU are less focused on them. THEN, you can *trade* for cheese or anything else yummy or even playful, like a dog toy. Well, best!


Thank you! Def worth a shot!


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

It is possible someone hurt her accidentally while she was on the leash or taking it on or off? I’ve had a lot of dogs who get excited when they see the leash but not one has growled or seemed afraid of it. I’m asking because a woman I knew about ten years ago called me unexpectedly to ask what she should do with their rescued dog, part GSD. It kept attacking one of her teenagers. Before I could get back to her she put the dog down. When we finally connected I asked her if there was any chance her son had hurt the dog because if so, she was going to have a problem with any dog she replaced it with. She hesitated, then said yes. she admitted that her son had teased, tormented and possibly hurt the dog. They were dealing with that. It doesn’t need to be intentional, but if someone is strong it’s possible to twist a collar or even pinch a squirmy dog with the leash clip.


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## Mullybirds (Jun 22, 2021)

LuvShepherds said:


> It is possible someone hurt her accidentally while she was on the leash or taking it on or off? I’ve had a lot of dogs who get excited when they see the leash but not one has growled or seemed afraid of it. I’m asking because a woman I knew about ten years ago called me unexpectedly to ask what she should do with their rescued dog, part GSD. It kept attacking one of her teenagers. Before I could get back to her she put the dog down. When we finally connected I asked her if there was any chance her son had hurt the dog because if so, she was going to have a problem with any dog she replaced it with. She hesitated, then said yes. she admitted that her son had teased, tormented and possibly hurt the dog. They were dealing with that. It doesn’t need to be intentional, but if someone is strong it’s possible to twist a collar or even pinch a squirmy dog with the leash clip.


I don't think so. We've had her since she was 9 weeks. We have a daughter in college and one who is 18 and works as a kennel tech- loves animals. If something was done, definitely unintentional- but I don't think that has happened. In any case she has never done it while clipping it on. ONLY off, and only 4 times. After some thought, I now tend to think this has become part of her guarding behavior now - possibly--Or, as APEX suggested- conflict aggression. Still researching and thinking... She's fine today. Vet appointment soon.


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## rotdocpa1 (Mar 19, 2018)

You will likely need a good working dog trainer. This problem can escalate and quickly. A good friend just rehomed a dog that showed resource guarding that escalated a lot when the dog hit social maturity. She is an experienced trainer. Dog growled over food, crate, ball, leash etc. It was apparent he was willing to hurt her also. Your dog is growing up and this will likely get worse w/out good intervention. Find a good schutzhund trainer also. Have you talked to your breeder. We have seen a pattern in some of the related dogs in our group. Who is she out of?


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## Mullybirds (Jun 22, 2021)

rotdocpa1 said:


> You will likely need a good working dog trainer. This problem can escalate and quickly. A good friend just rehomed a dog that showed resource guarding that escalated a lot when the dog hit social maturity. She is an experienced trainer. Dog growled over food, crate, ball, leash etc. It was apparent he was willing to hurt her also. Your dog is growing up and this will likely get worse w/out good intervention. Find a good schutzhund trainer also. Have you talked to your breeder. We have seen a pattern in some of the related dogs in our group. Who is she out of?


Yes...the adolescent period is a concern. We've seen a behaviorist regarding the guarding - may have to contact her again. She has made a lot of progress with resource guarding actually...she now brings me items for a trade 99.9% of the time. If the items are not valuable, I ignore her and that works too. So yes... I will definitely seek a professional. I think her pain may be part of it... but could be her "growing up stage" as you suggested as well. Thanks.

And yes, her parents are titled in Schutzhund. The breeder does not think this one is a candidate. We're doing nosework and dock diving.


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## Buckelke (Sep 4, 2019)

_In regards to toys, we keep a few on the floor and the rest are out of her reach. _

Well, give her HER toys. Withholding them would just make her want to hold on to them more. She's guarding them so you won't take them away again. I can't believe a trainer would have you do that. Like to take away their toys, see how cranky it makes them. 
You do NOT have to be mean to train a dog or a child, kindness and generosity go a long way and teach the lessons of kindness and generosity towards others.


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## Mullybirds (Jun 22, 2021)

Buckelke said:


> _In regards to toys, we keep a few on the floor and the rest are out of her reach. _
> 
> Well, give her HER toys. Withholding them would just make her want to hold on to them more. She's guarding them so you won't take them away again. I can't believe a trainer would have you do that. Like to take away their toys, see how cranky it makes them.
> You do NOT have to be mean to train a dog or a child, kindness and generosity go a long way and teach the lessons of kindness and generosity towards others.


She doesn't guard her toys, actually. She guards stolen items. Never guards toys. 
It's not being mean -and I'm offended that you think I am even slightly mean to my dog. Frankly, your assumption is mean. I am firm. Consistent rules. Like children. We play fetch everyday. When fetch is done, the balls are put away. Toys are kept out of the way to keep the excitement. How excited is your dog with a toy that is always available vs a new toy? 
Putting away (or rotating) most toys IS actually a highly recommended tool by most professional trainers.. look it up.

Do you own a working-line GSD? Have you dealt with resource guarding successfully?


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

I have a resource guarder, he's almost 9 years old now. He's also a working line. Mine will probably always be a resource guarder of his food. Food is very high value to him. It's now modified to the point that he no longer feels the need to guard it from my husband and me. His meals are fed in the laundry room (or outside) and he then is left in peace. He began his foray into toy guarding at a young age (3 months? 4 months?). My husband went to get a toy to play with him and he lunged for his hand. I was sitting there as well. He never did it again. I gave a quite firm correction and then we carried on and he never did it with us again. He will sometimes growl when extended family tries to take the ball from his mouth, thinking that a dog bringing you a toy means he wants to give it to you (BIG misconception LOL). He is fine if he drops it at their feet and wants them to throw it; just don't take it from him.


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## 3ymum (Oct 12, 2021)

Buffy does resource guard with stolen item because she wants me to chase her but not actually possess. She is generally not a serious girl.

Yours may have a very strong mind and due to adolescent/medical reason makes her start to push boundary? She doesn't want her leash taking off because leash=go out=valuable for her, so tried to make the call? And the leash is 'hers'?

Would it be possible that she starts resource guarding other than stolen items due to adolescent? 

Even though she traded the stolen item, she still thought 'it is hers', kind of a bit not happy but then you tried to take off her 'precious', so she had to 'fight back'?

From your description and responds, I am sure you will do whatever it takes to solve the problems, you are just very curious as to why so you can find out the root cause of it. 

Sorry I can't offer any insight but hope you will get it sorted soon and please let us know how she is doing.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

This post has crossed my mind many times today. I keep imagining how it must feel. I'm sorry. Trust is so important. I would be scared of my dog.


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## Mullybirds (Jun 22, 2021)

3ymum said:


> Buffy does resource guard with stolen item because she wants me to chase her but not actually possess. She is generally not a serious girl.
> 
> Yours may have a very strong mind and due to adolescent/medical reason makes her start to push boundary? She doesn't want her leash taking off because leash=go out=valuable for her, so tried to make the call? And the leash is 'hers'?
> 
> ...


I appreciate this insight! Thank you.


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## Mullybirds (Jun 22, 2021)

Apex1 said:


> This post has crossed my mind many times today. I keep imagining how it must feel. I'm sorry. Trust is so important. I would be scared of my dog.


The interesting thing with resource guarding is that they turn into a different dog -it's very primal. And I know exactly her signs/body language when she is in that mode. I also know now how to handle the stolen item resource guarding safely and effectively. What freaked me out is the growling for leash removal/crate at ME. This was the very first time she growled at me (besides resource guarding.) Otherwise...and I know this sounds crazy- I trust her very much.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

Yes I see you can trust what you can read. What has become predictable. You had to stick with her get her where she is. 
How did the vet go?


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## 3ymum (Oct 12, 2021)

She thinks she could test dad for 3 times so now she can start testing mum as well? Teenage? 

Buffy did growl at me once when she was a pup, maybe around 8 months, when I tried to get the stolen item, a sharp no. As you described that you know how to read when she is in that 'mode', so did I, warned her before she reacted again, a couple times correction, she hasn't done it again/tried, she is 2.5 years old now.

Yours is definitely a strong bitch,lol

I only try to put in your shoes and I am not an experienced dog owner so take it with a pinch of salt. Vet and behaviourist will give you better answer than me.

Please update.


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## techinstructor (Nov 15, 2014)

Mullybirds said:


> In regards to guarding..... she guards objects she steals.


This is my Dasha to a tee! I think they do this to get the attention and interaction. Dasha will take a stolen item to her crate (her safe zone) and not come out or give it up unless I trade her something of higher value. Sometimes even then I have to trick her with a distraction to get her out of her crate. And yes, she will bite you if you just try to take it out of her mouth! Dasha is 7 1/2 years old now and incidences such as this occur less frequently. It usually happens when she is bored or hasn't had enough exercise. She knows and complies with "drop it" and "leave it" with other objects.

Aside from possible health issues, I wonder if the growling over the leash could be related to the fact that she doesn't want to go inside. If she has only growled when the leash was being taken off, it may be because she sees that as a signal that the outdoor fun, walk, etc. is now over and she doesn't want it to end. It may also be that she is just being a bit a brat, considering her age and pushing her will to see what she can get away with. 

It may also be beneficial to increase the number of times you play "Collar Grab" giving her treats and making this a really fun thing. Transferring the value of the treat to "grabbing the collar" would be very helpful in this instance. If you do this regularly and she has still growled when you reached then I suspect something else is at play here.


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## Mullybirds (Jun 22, 2021)

Apex1 said:


> Yes I see you can trust what you can read. What has become predictable. You had to stick with her get her where she is.
> How did the vet go?


@Apex1 Shoulder sprain...  

@techinstructor : Because of the infrequency of growling while removing the leash I am wondering if something else is at play. I actually did exactly what you had suggested before reading it yesterday... several leash removals with treats. Collar grabs with treats. I even took her leash off several times in different rooms. No growling 🤪 Contacted a behavioral consultant AGAIN. This dog is costing us a fortune!! One thing to note, 2 of her siblings were returned to the breeder due to their "psychotic" nature (one bit someone). Maybe this is a bad batch-lol.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

Awe poor pup. Your doing your best by her be proud of that. She is going to teach you more then you thought a dog probably ever would. Thank you for sharing your not just helping yourself when you share here. I hope she heals quickly.


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## techinstructor (Nov 15, 2014)

Mullybirds, You will perservere and be rewarded in the end! It took a long time for me to truly bond with Dasha because she was so high strung and independent. Now she's a great dog to have and a loyal member of the family. She will still growl at me at times (over certain things), but over the years we've learned how to communicate with each other and built a strong relationship. You'll get there too with your pup, because you are willing to put in the effort to find what works.


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## Mullybirds (Jun 22, 2021)

Thank you so much for the support! I won't give up on her. Like most dog issues, I'm sure it's something I'M doing! Just need to figure that out!! Really appreciate everyone!


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## 3ymum (Oct 12, 2021)

Hope she will get well soon.

She may be just a difficult teenage with strong will but at the end, she will be the sweetest girl to reciprocate for all the hard work and fortunate you have spent.

What's her name and any photo? We love photos!


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## Mullybirds (Jun 22, 2021)

Vesta


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## Sonny1984 (Oct 25, 2021)

It may just be a random thing - has it happened again after the first time? Maybe try giving a sit command, then go for the leash? Or are you able to go for the leash, then give some cheese before she has a chance to growl? My dog gets pretty stoked when the leash comes off cuz it means he gets some freedom. Is there any routine like going straight to a crate after the leash comes off she may be frustrated about?


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)




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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Could she have sprained her shoulder with a leash correction or being hooked onto something that caught her collar? what advice did you get after the diagnoses to have her heal? I know for me, when I have sprained a knee or a neck muscle, anything that comes close to the injured area, makes me tense. Maybe use a martingale collar that you can slip over her head (just don't leave it on when you are not working with her). If she is a WL she needs a lot of off leash exercise, more than twice a week. She could also get cabin fever on top of the trouble.


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## brittanyS (Dec 11, 2018)

I didn’t read all of the posts, so maybe this is not helpful at all, but is your dog sensitive to noise? My older dog is very sensitive and I have to be careful when taking the leash off not to let the clip snap closed near her head. In my dogs case, she was really avoidant when I tried to get the leash off, but different dogs react differently. Just something to think about.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Ok I haven't waded through all the ins and outs of this but I'm responding anyway. ... 

I got to about 35 and decided just to weigh in.

She gets leashed to go out. She gets unleashed when she comes in. .... Yeah... so.. what I see going on here is that this leash/unleash thing = good thing/end of good thing. 

I would leash and unleash that youngster so often, in so many different places that the association would change. The meaning would be diffused if you will. And my hand would be tired from snapping and unsnapping that lead....


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