# Michael Ellis Remote Collar Theory



## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

Has anyone seen the videos and can provide some comments? Leerburg On Demand | Michael Ellis Remote Collar Theory

Is it worth the amount it's charging? 

Thanks in advance for any input.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

I watched the first chapter and I really liked it. My only complaint is that from what I remember it talks a lot about training theory (operant conditioning etc.) which is always nice to have a refresher on but since i have read that info a million times it was a little redundant. You reminded me I should really watch the other chapters especially since the second one talks a lot about using the e collar for outs (which I do)

I would say the more info you can get about using an e collar the better. I also read through Lou Castle's site as well and talked to several trainers/had their assistance when beginning to use the collar. You can really screw up a dog with an e collar if used improperly. I really like the way Michael Ellis introduces the collar, which is covered in the first chapter. To me that was worth the $25. (That being said if you want to use his system of collar introduction, your dog has to understand leash pressure and I'm not sure if that is covered in the e collar series.)


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I think anyone using an e-collar should have an experienced trainer helping them hands on. It is something that is trained for many sessions and not a quick thing to train if done right. I trained my dog to one and maybe it was overkill but it took us 3 months to teach different exercises & proof him on it.

I would view the ME video's so you can understand the theory, but have someone w/ experience help you when you train it.


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

Thanks for the comments. I understand the importance of a trainer. This thread is only to evaluate the video. 

I'm going to rent his video on recall also as it has a section on the ecollar too.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

What do you do if you can't find a trainer who uses the ecollar like that? 

I've found a couple here but they use it for correction based training only. I'm dead serious. I can NOT find a trainer here who uses the ecollar the way I would like to learn how. If anyone knows of someone in Spokane, please advise. But I'm thinking I'm going to have to learn by video only.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

RocketDog said:


> What do you do if you can't find a trainer who uses the ecollar like that?
> 
> I've found a couple here but they use it for correction based training only. I'm dead serious. I can NOT find a trainer here who uses the ecollar the way I would like to learn how. If anyone knows of someone in Spokane, please advise. But I'm thinking I'm going to have to learn by video only.


Thats too bad about not having a trainer to help you. 
What is the main reason you want to use one?


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

To be honest I have learned more about e collars through videos/reading ad doing my own research. I did get help from trainers but that's just because I am friends with a couple professional trainers. I am not new to dogs and training, but I would have been comfortable with just the info I got from doing my own research. The videos are good, as are all of the ME videos


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

KristiM said:


> To be honest I have learned more about e collars through videos/reading ad doing my own research. *I did get help from trainers but that's just because I am friends with a couple professional trainers*.* I am not new to dogs and training*, but I would have been comfortable with just the info I got from doing my own research. The videos are good, as are all of the ME videos


I agree with you, but someone who doesn't have experience as a trainer may not be so successful training e-collar just from videos. Though if that is the only option $75 is a great deal!


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

i heard the best way to introduce an e-collar is have someone else other than the handler operate it for you while you work the dog - i have never used one so just saying what i have heard.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

x11 said:


> i heard the best way to introduce an e-collar is have someone else other than the handler operate it for you while you work the dog - i have never used one so just saying what i have heard.


Yes this is VERY helpful. But the dog needs to become familiarized with what an e collar is before you start using it for behaviour modification. ME couples the use of the e collar with leash pressure on the prong so that the dog can become familiar with the sensation in a very controlled way.

ETA: the person with the remote better have a VERY good idea of what they are doing and what you are looking to accomplish. I would not just hand the remote off to anyone!!!


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> Thats too bad about not having a trainer to help you.
> What is the main reason you want to use one?


Mostly to proof an absolute recall out backpacking. I own a Dogtra SureStim H Plus, that I used the "vibrate" only function on to stop his beginning barking at the next door horses. It only took a few vibrates honestly. He still wears it when he goes out down there, mostly because it's only been about 4 months and I want to make sure. I don't necessarily believe in "trained" in only a month or two. I know it takes more time to really extinguish or proof a behavior. I also used it ONCE on deer, this time on a low level electric stim, when he started out to give chase. He did not yip but instead immediately turned towards me and started to come back. I immediately let off the stim when he turned towards me. We've only encountered one or two deer since then, and he responded well to my "leave it". I have not used it for anything else. 

I would like to learn how to proof his recall under drive, such as in these situations, or if he sees another dog off-leash, since dogs are his "crack", lol. I have not attempted any other kind of use because I don't feel I have learned enough. I've read Lou Castle's site thoroughly, but there is a video training series suggested by a member here I want to purchase and "proof" myself with before beginning serious training with it. I simply have not started it yet.  

Rocket is a GREAT dog, and is very reliable in most situations. We train and proof steadily, but I feel like he needs a bit of seriousness added. I feel like if the dog or attraction (as in cougar or bear) were enticing enough, he would likely not even hear me or even blow me off. To me, his reaction with the paging function and the horses, indicates he could respond well to ecollar training. I just want to do it properly. He recovers very well from correction, but I don't want to "mess" anything up with him.


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## Yoschi's_Pet_Human (Nov 13, 2012)

I always have been intrigued by these collars.. having grew up with a very high strung dobie/rott mix... this thing would have been a life saver... the lady I purchased yoschi from forbids them... I had to sign a contract stating I would never use anything electric with Yoschi, such as collars or fences.. if I do she reserves the right to take him back... a few other things like kicking and hitting were also included. I actually read some online reviews complaining about her confiscating dogs from owners that violated these rules... she's a serious woman...lol


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

RocketDog said:


> Mostly to proof an absolute recall out backpacking. I own a Dogtra SureStim H Plus, that I used the "vibrate" only function on to stop his beginning barking at the next door horses. It only took a few vibrates honestly. He still wears it when he goes out down there, mostly because it's only been about 4 months and I want to make sure. I don't necessarily believe in "trained" in only a month or two. I know it takes more time to really extinguish or proof a behavior. I also used it ONCE on deer, this time on a low level electric stim, when he started out to give chase. He did not yip but instead immediately turned towards me and started to come back. I immediately let off the stim when he turned towards me. We've only encountered one or two deer since then, and he responded well to my "leave it". I have not used it for anything else.
> 
> I would like to learn how to proof his recall under drive, such as in these situations, or if he sees another dog off-leash, since dogs are his "crack", lol. I have not attempted any other kind of use because I don't feel I have learned enough. I've read Lou Castle's site thoroughly, but there is a video training series suggested by a member here I want to purchase and "proof" myself with before beginning serious training with it. I simply have not started it yet.
> 
> Rocket is a GREAT dog, and is very reliable in most situations. We train and proof steadily, but I feel like he needs a bit of seriousness added. I feel like if the dog or attraction (as in cougar or bear) were enticing enough, he would likely not even hear me or even blow me off. To me, his reaction with the paging function and the horses, indicates he could respond well to ecollar training. I just want to do it properly. He recovers very well from correction, but I don't want to "mess" anything up with him.


I use an e collar with Odin for the same reason. We are in the mountains a lot and there is LOTS of wildlife around here. This fall a dog (on leash) was eaten by a grizzly bear! I once lost Odin for about 20 minutes on the side of a mountain when he took off after a rabbit Having an e collar for him is a must when we are in the woods!

I would suggest doing a proper e collar intro with your dog before you have to use it for an emergency. It's a much more humane tool if the dog understands what it's for and how to turn it off.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Well, we did do the intro from Lou Castle's website last spring, with the same Dogtra I borrowed from my breeder. From the few times I've used it, I think he does understand it's a correction that he can control. 

I really really wish there were a trainer here--I need to find a Labrador club or hunting club I guess. I'm thinking they probably have ecollar trainers there that I can talk to to see if they might be a good fit.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The trainer I work with is a field retrieve/hunt competitor(as well as an AKC obedience competitor/trainer)...so some methods she knows of are 'old school' but she uses different techniques than many of her fellow competitors. 
I'd be cautious if you do find a hunt club person for help, make sure they aren't rushing the process with too much pressure.
We taught it with using target plates, placeboards & a wobble-board~ added in commands on the boards, then taught directionals with distractions. A prong was used in the beginning along with the e-collar. I was the one handling the remote at all times.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I completely agree Jane. This is what is so frustrating for me-- Spokane County is over 600,000 people. I think the ecollar is a very viable and humane tool in the box for some dogs if used _properly._ I can't freakin believe its so hard to find someone here! Grrr.


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## Vislor (Nov 19, 2012)

I must say you guys all seem very sensible and civilised in relation to talking about e-collars. In the UK if anyone so much as whispers the word "e-collar" on any online forum a full scale civil war breaks out! 

We've learned how to use them over the years and had a little help from the likes of Jogi Zank and Bart Bellon in developing the proper techniques. Its a very handy tool, but very misunderstood.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Vislor, just wait.  It isn't always civil here either.


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## Vislor (Nov 19, 2012)

lhczth said:


> Vislor, just wait.  It isn't always civil here either.


Well you've had at least one page of civil conversation and that has impressed me enough 

Theres always the same "camps" regarding e-collars; 
1st. Those who have endeavoured to learn how to effectively use them and find them a very useful tool to add to their (hopefully large and varied) toolbox, 
2nd. Those who don't understand them but think they do, use them and abuse them as the only tool in their tool box,
3rd. Those who are thinking about using them but are unsure and are seeking good advice and
4th. The hysterical reactionary nut jobs that have no idea, have probably never even seen one but are 100% convinced that they are some sort of hellish weapon of mass destruction.

Its the fight between the 2nd and 4th camp that tends to blow up, which convinces the 3rd camp to either leave them alone or use them incorrectly whilst the 1st camp carries tries to bite their tongue and stay out of it


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

KristiM said:


> I use an e collar with Odin for the same reason. We are in the mountains a lot and there is LOTS of wildlife around here. This fall a dog (on leash) was eaten by a grizzly bear! I once lost Odin for about 20 minutes on the side of a mountain when he took off after a rabbit Having an e collar for him is a must when we are in the woods!
> 
> I would suggest doing a proper e collar intro with your dog before you have to use it for an emergency. It's a much more humane tool if the dog understands what it's for and how to turn it off.


I, too, am looking to learn how to use it for recall - for wildlife and chasing dogs away from playing in "her" river. 

Did Odin come back full from a meal? :wild:


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

Bear L said:


> I, too, am looking to learn how to use it for recall - for wildlife and chasing dogs away from playing in "her" river.
> 
> Did Odin come back full from a meal? :wild:


Lol, no I'm just glad something didn't turn him into a meal! GSDs are very far from the top of the food chain where i hike!

My husband and I joke that he's just trying to say hi to the deer and show them what a nice boy he is, but they just keep running away!


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Sorry meant to send this post as a PM.


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## lifebreath (Sep 30, 2011)

I'm a believer in a good shock collar (yes, let's call it what it is!) used judiciously, especially for recall and boundary conditioning. We have 35+ acres, much of it wooded, and my dog has a very high prey drive and a mind of his own. He learns quickly, and is responsive 98% of the time. The other 2% of the time is a problem not easily rectified by other means. The 2% consists of either THE CHASE or THE EXPLORATION or both. Both behaviors are related to the prey drive, and both behaviors are EXTREMELY self-rewarding. My GSD loves us and we love him, but nothing I have to offer as reward can compete with the thrill of THE CHASE or the joy of THE EXPLORATION. And he knows that outside and off-lead, I cannot enforce my command. He is in the driver's seat, and he knows it!

I'm sure that if I spent hours and hours of training the dog, I could probably get it licked. But, I don't have hours and hours to spend, and in the meantime, the behaviors prohibit our having fun off-leash in the wide open area near the house. We live in the city, and when he bolts, he's off into the woods or the neighborhood. He always comes back, but he could get hit by a car, hurt in some other way, or just plain freak people out, even though he's not aggressive.

Enter THE COLLAR, a Tri-Tronics Pro-100 G3 EXP. DOG already has basic obedience, and the come command is well-reinforced off-lead in controlled settings and outside in the fenced-in area, and on a long light lead outside of the fence. However, once DOG had taste of THE CHASE and THE EXPLORATION, he's like a crack addict. Long story short, THE CHASE and THE EXPLORATION are no longer fun. In fact, SOMETHING BAD is out there now! Much nicer to stay close to Papa! SOMETHING BAD goes away when DOG close to Papa. SOMETHING BAD in the brush in the ravine! Now DOG finds no fun in THE CHASE and THE EXPLORATION. Now DOG has fun off-leash with Papa, playing and running and stuff! Now DOG can have fun going to explore with Papa off-leash, and SOMETHING BAD is not there!

This is the one area that I believe the e-collar excels in, and it can restore the JOY of having fun with your dog off-leash in the open.

As an aside, I did once try using the collar without really understanding it. All I succeeded in doing was to freak the dog out and freak myself out wondering if I'd screwed us both up for life. Thankfully, we both recovered quickly, and put the collar aside for a few months, worked on other training, then revisited the collar after having learned more about training theory. Once I understood what made the dog tick, applying the collar made much more sense, and it had VERY quick results.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

lhczth said:


> Vislor, just wait.  It isn't always civil here either.


:wub: :wild: :wub:


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