# I don't know what happened...(Long)



## Melina (Feb 20, 2010)

I'm still really upset with myself and this situation and partially venting, partially asking what might have happened...

So Koda, my new GSD adoptee was diagnosed with heartworm. He's currently on Doxycyclene as a pre-treatment and hasn't received his Immiticide shots to kill the adult heartworm, that won't happen until May 1st. Point being, running around right now for him right now isn't the best thing, but it's not imperative that he be confined like it will be after he receives his shots.

I've been taking him on two moderate walks daily, but no dog park, which I was doing every day before he was diagnosed. I'm noticing that he's getting a little restless, not listening as well when I tell him not to chase the cats, etc., so I know he needs to be exercised. He won't chase balls in the back yard. I can't run him on my bike because he would pull me over and it would be too much for him right now. Walks aren't enough apparently...

Tonight I decided I would take him to the dog park because A. The main area is closed tonight, which leaves an auxiliary park down the street open, so not many people like to show up, and B. It's St. Patrick's Day, almost no one would be there, they're all out celebrating. So we get there and I'm right, only my two dogs (Koda and my Sheltie mix, Riley) and two others that I'm familiar with, a Boxer puppy and some kind of Black Lab mix. Both of this guy's dogs are super friendly, never any problems. I thought, "Great, I'll stay maybe a half hour, Koda can get a little bit of exercise saying hi to these dogs, and it won't be too much for him."

Well, I don't know what the heck happened, but Koda went straight for the Boxers neck. It sounded bad, but it didn't look _too_ bad (I've seen worse), no blood was drawn. I was only a few feet away and lunged at Koda, grabbed his collar and screamed, "NO!!!" at him. I made him sit and put his leash on him. I don't know what that was, but I wasn't going to let him go and have him do it again to find out. I was so surprised by the whole thing that I started crying and apologized profusely to the guy. I explained to him that Koda hasn't been out lately due to the heartworm, etc., that I didn't know why he did that (I'm still not sure why), grabbed Riley too, and left.

Before Koda came back positive for heartworm, I was taking him to the dog park all the time and he was totally fine with other dogs, he was rarely rough with them during play, let alone did anything like this. If a dog came after him, he would be the one to run away from the fight, not seemingly want to instigate it. Is it because he has so much pent up energy right now? I can't let him run around like he was before, it's not good for him, and it's going to be imperative that he be confined once he gets his shots. Was there some other reason that he might have done this??

I'm still so upset by the whole thing, mainly at myself. I feel like, what if it's not due to the fact that he's got so much energy, and he's all of a sudden become an aggressive dog? Out of nowhere?? What did I do wrong as his owner? He hasn't even had the ability to see other dogs besides the ones he lives with since I found out about the heartworm, we don't seem to encounter any on our walks, where would this have come from? I just feel like the worlds worst dog owner for him going after this guy's dog. Riley has her own issues. I've helped rehabilitate her from an abused, submissive dog, but she's still afraid of big dogs and will snap at them to tell them, "Give me space", which I can't seem to break her of. People don't understand that she's afraid and just telling them to back off a bit, so they think she's vicious. And now I have another dog that is aggressive towards other dogs! I don't know what I'm doing wrong as a pet owner.

You see those people at the dog park who have a dog that seems out of control, you know? Koda's such a sweet dog, I don't want people to think he's "that dog" at the park. After tonight, I just wanted to crawl into a hole and hide. Sorry for the long post, I'm just really upset...


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

C'mon, he is a dog! And once in a while they are going to do things that we can never figure out! It sure doesn't sound like you diod anything wrong!


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## Melina (Feb 20, 2010)

That's the easy answer! I just want to know if it's going to happen again, is all. If it's due to too much energy, then I don't have to worry about repeat behavior after the treatment is over so long as I exercise him. But this came out of the blue, and if he's randomly developing aggressive behaviors, they need to be curbed.


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

I know exactly how you feel.

I worked so hard with Dakota, socializing, obedience training, off leash hikes etc. Then one day in obedience class she attacked a poodle. Why? Who the heck knows. Will she do it again? I don't know but I'm not taking any chances. No physical damage done.

I cried too when it happened, in front of all the other students and the instuctor. Felt like a big baby. It had been a long time since I cried, and here I was crying over what my dog did. Felt like it was my fault, felt like I failed my dog and I must have done something wrong along the way. Everyone says on this board that it is lack of socialization when a dog acts out this way and it must be something the owner didn't do. That night, I wanted to give her away, I couldn't look at her. We were kicked out of class. It took me a few days to finally come to my senses. I loved that dog and she was pretty close to perfect before that night. She needed help not banishment.

Went to a behaviourist and she said - Shepherds are smart, that poodle probably ticked her off and she wanted to put him in his place. Not acceptable behaviour, but not because of something that I didn't do. I was there working on her so I'm not a terrible dog owner with "that" dog.

The behaivourist response was very similiar to Codmaster's.

Keep your eyes open, but don't tense up. Don't assume that it will happen again and create nervous energy that your dog will pick up on. 

Good luck and hope you feel better.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Truly, if he wanted to hurt the other dog he could have. Forgive him, and forgive yourself. Stuff happens. Learn from this and move on. Go back to the beginning. Take him to the places you took him to when you began to socialize him. Keep him on a leash. Let him build his confidence up as well. 

Perhaps you're a little upset as well due to his upcoming treatments. You worry for him and that is making you uneasy.


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## Melina (Feb 20, 2010)

Caldeon - Thanks for making me feel better about the crying thing, haha. I think it had just been a long day and that added to it. I felt like I was going to do something good for my dog and it ended up going sour. While I didn't want to give Koda away last night, I wasn't as affectionate with him as I usually am. I just told him to go lie down and ignored him the rest of the evening.

As I said, he's never done anything even remotely close to this before, and the thing that's different about this trip to the dog park is that it had been a while since he had gone so he had pent up energy, which is what I think the cause was for this. I feel like I need to know if he's going to do this again so I can know if he's going to be okay around other dogs (besides the ones he lives with), but it won't happen until after his treatment is completed, which will be the end of June. At which point maybe I'll try to run him on my bike before a trip to the dog park to get out some of that energy so there's not a repeat performance.


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## trish07 (Mar 5, 2010)

I know how you feel....the first time we noticed Phenix agression toward other dogs, it was against a little cane Corso puppy.

We still don't know what happened...but here is the storie:

We were at the dog park (like each single other days of the week lol) and my bf was petting Phenix while talking with the owner of the little girl (Cane Corso pup) - just to mentione, this little girl was quit agressive with other dogs, a very high energy dog, very dominant - Suddently, Phenix attacked her with a violence I had never seen before. The little girl was trying to escape while my bf took Phenix's collar. Than, suddently, Phenix attacked an other dog, a Vishla pup sitting next to my bf.

We were speachless. We felt so guilty, apologized to the two guys.

The only thing I can say is....you can't always know what your dog is thinking. In a perfect world, you will, but in reality those things happen too fast and even if there is always a reason, you can't always know it.


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## crs996 (Sep 19, 2001)

Sometimes dog communication is hard to understand and happens incredibly quickly. Some TV shows on dog training show what a dog "said" to precipitate a fight, this can happen more often when a dog is sick or in a weakened state and is challenged by another dog. I wasn't there and don't know the scenario, but sometime these things happen not because your dog (or another dog) is dog aggressive, but because of a rude or dominating signal another dog sent. If it's not a regular happening, I wouldn't worry to much about it, JMO.


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## Melina (Feb 20, 2010)

I have another somewhat related question about a behavior that I'm not very familiar with as I haven't had a dog around large enough or dominant enough to do this since I was a little girl...

Koda did this once or twice last night, and it's something I've seen him do sometimes when he was going to the dog park on a regular basis before. He'll stand next to a dog of comparable size and hook his chin over their shoulders. He rarely mounts, he's usually been the one to get mounted, and doesn't generally freak out if that happens, after a while he may let out a small growl, but nothing much. My question is in regards to the chin shoulder hook thing, though. I was reading that it's a sign of dominance, but can it lead to aggression? He seems to be a very confident dog, tail always up, not skittish or afraid of things, but not possessive over things either (food, toys, me, etc.). When he would do that to another dog, I would generally grab him by the collar and pull him away, is that the right thing to do? Or should I let them work it out?


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Huge help for me was to purchase and watch the DVD Calming Signals by Turid Rugass. Turns out there are TONS of quiet signals dogs are constantly throwing out that we 'stupid' humans miss. Then we say the dogs SUDDENLY started fighting and we had no idea.

When the truth is, much of the time one or the other or BOTH dogs were throwing out these signals and we didn't know what we were seeing.

Saved me a ton of stress and I really learned alot about dogs so HIGHLY recommend the DVD, it has tons of GSD's as examples so that even a better help. 

Welcome to Dogwise.com










It's definitely full of the 'you don't know until you know' moments.
http://www.dogwise.com/Photos/Medium/dtb788_b.jpg


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## crs996 (Sep 19, 2001)

Melina said:


> He'll stand next to a dog of comparable size and hook his chin over their shoulders.


This is generally considered a dominant posture and may be considered "rude" by other dogs. It in and of itself is not aggressive but can lead to an aggressive reaction from the other dog, especially if it is a very dominant dog, fear aggressive, etc. Other dogs may ignore this or submit, but others may attempt to correct what they see as rude behavior. A fight can ensue.

This is why dog parks can be hazardous, they are strangers to one another, not an established "pack" where all the rules have been figured out. I would discourage any overtly dominant behavior, mounting etc. I will immediately intervene and correct mounting behavior with my dogs (some is normal as puppies). You will need to learn to recognize the "intensity" of the situation between the dogs to see if there is a fight brewing.


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## Melina (Feb 20, 2010)

So the fact that I step in and pull him away when he does that is the right thing to do. I've done that every time, I just didn't know if that was aggravating either dog because they weren't working out the pecking order themselves, or if like you said, Koda wasn't minding his manners and should be corrected for it. I know that mounting behavior should be stopped for sure, but I wasn't sure about the chin over another dog's shoulder thing. It didn't seem as though most dogs he would do it were getting extremely upset by it, but somewhere in the back of my mind I thought any one of them could turn around and snap at any second if they didn't like a dog looming over them, so something told me it should be stopped.

Do dominant dogs do it as a means to get the other dog to submit to them? Is it some sort of challenge? Forgive my not knowing this, but Koda's the first large, confident dog I've had around in quite some time. I'm used to my 30 pound submissive Sheltie mix, haha...


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## cherry (Mar 17, 2010)

Melina i think you have to remember that at the end of the day he is an animal and he is not perfect, no one is and no dog is, just move on and keep an eye on things
Also never grab him by his collar its a sure way to get bitten, he might mistake your hand for the mouth of another dog, if things get nasty pull him out by the tail, he wont be able to turn around and grab you!
I dont know if things are different in ireland but if a dog fight starts in our dog class they are pulled off by the tail and every1 moves on and gets on with the class, live in the now not the past!!!


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## crs996 (Sep 19, 2001)

Melina said:


> So the fact that I step in and pull him away when he does that is the right thing to do. I've done that every time, I just didn't know if that was aggravating either dog because they weren't working out the pecking order themselves, or if like you said, Koda wasn't minding his manners and should be corrected for it. I know that mounting behavior should be stopped for sure, but I wasn't sure about the chin over another dog's shoulder thing. It didn't seem as though most dogs he would do it were getting extremely upset by it, but somewhere in the back of my mind I thought any one of them could turn around and snap at any second if they didn't like a dog looming over them, so something told me it should be stopped.
> 
> Do dominant dogs do it as a means to get the other dog to submit to them? Is it some sort of challenge? Forgive my not knowing this, but Koda's the first large, confident dog I've had around in quite some time. I'm used to my 30 pound submissive Sheltie mix, haha...


Don't worry about not knowing this stuff, I think everyone here is glad to help with their own experiences and opinions!

It can be a "test" to see if the other will submit, or just poor dog manners. I would not focus on trying to assess what the intentions are as much as just realize that some dogs may not take kindly to this behavior.

Pulling on the collar can escalate a tense situation, and as the poster above said result in a bite in some cases, perhaps from the other dog, or an accidental bite during a tussle. I would recommend working on verbal cues with your dog to avoid or change the behavior. If he is swaggering up to another in a way that you feel might not be accepted, use this as an opportunity to practice a happy recall and praise/treat. Same with the head on shoulder. You can also work on a verbal cue such as "leave it" and perhaps "easy" if there is too much rough play. It enables you to communicate your expectations to your dog AND helps keep him out of trouble.


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## Melina (Feb 20, 2010)

That's part of the issue. He comes to me well at home and in the yard, but when we get to the dog park, it's like he loses his mind and doesn't have any idea who I am. He doesn't listen when I call him, and if I tell him to leave another dog alone he doesn't stop the behavior. The "leave it" command would work well in many instances, it seems, as we have cats around the house that he likes to chase as well. Not hurt, just chase, and consequently they've gone into hiding. Under what section would I find some other threads that talk about teaching the "leave it" command?


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

That's not part of the issue, it is the underlying issue. You have no control over your dog when distractions are present, and it's a recipe for disaster for you and for other dogs in the park. When you call him he has to listen, period. When I call my dog and he ignores me then I get him, put him on leash and spent 10 min doing recall exercises on leash. Then off leash. Then he goes plays again. I recall him periodically, I play with him, he is there with me, and he has to remember it every single second. 

I do not do dog parks anymore but that's how I approached it before.


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## crs996 (Sep 19, 2001)

GSD07 said:


> That's not part of the issue, it is the underlying issue.
> I do not do dog parks anymore but that's how I approached it before.


I have to agree with this, it sounds like going back to training would be time/money well spent. So many of the behaviors we ask dogs to do or not do are completely reliant on solid basic OB. There are several methods on teaching "leave it", do a search in the Training section.

The (not so fun) truth is that a dog should not really be off leash or long line until the recall is pretty solid, this includes a TON of distraction proofing which takes time, no matter what method you use.

In the meantime IMO I would avoid the dog park. Like GSD07, I generally avoid it anyways because of the unknown behaviors/temperaments of other dogs. At the dog park, owners always have a million excuses or blame your dog. I use OB classes for socialization because there is an instructor there who will not tolerate inappropriate behaviors between dogs. The dogs stay on leash until they have a high level of distraction proofing so a correction is easy to give.

Also, IMO, I would advise against using dog parks for exercise. If I do go to a dog park, I go after my dogs have already been thoroughly exercised. A bunch of hyper dogs with unspent energy can result in problems quickly.


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## Melina (Feb 20, 2010)

We're definitely going to work on the recall issue then, because you're right, that's not acceptable behavior. I won't be working on it at the dog park, I'll have to find an area, and it's going to have to wait until after his heartworm treatment is completed.

I do have one more question:

We've had Koda a little over a month and he came to us intact. After getting him checked out at the vet, his shots, getting him neutered was next on the list, until we found out he had heartworm. Now we can't get him neutered until he completes his treatment. The Vet said he looks to be between 1 and 2 years old, so we're saying 18 months (he was a stray, we have no information on him).

So my question, I understand intact males have a tendency towards dominance/aggression, and neutering may help that, but being a year and a half, is it too late for neutering to affect that behavior? Granted that what happened last night isn't a one time occurrence? Would neutering had to have happened earlier for it to have any effect or can one still expect to see a change in behavior regarding dominance, aggression, marking, etc. in an older dog? He's not once marked in the house, which is wonderful, just asking about that out of curiosity.


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## Melina (Feb 20, 2010)

crs996 said:


> In the meantime IMO I would avoid the dog park.


Well, he's not going to the dog park until his heartworm treatment is completed and we've worked on his recall/training, I've decided. The only reason we went last night is because he's only on Doxycycline right now and it isn't imperative that he remain calm, and I knew there wouldn't be many dogs there. Apparently he needs more work than I thought he did, though. He's always so calm and obedient at home that this episode last night surprised me, but that just reinforces the belief that no matter how domesticated we think dogs are, they are still unpredictable at times.

I know it's not a good idea to get the energy out of your dog at the dog park, you're supposed to do it before hand, but I was dumb and ignored that as I had never had an incident with Koda before. Now I know better. I'm really hoping this was a one time occurrence, but as I said, I'm not going to find out. I won't trust him until he's had more training and obedience work.


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## crs996 (Sep 19, 2001)

Melina said:


> We're definitely going to work on the recall issue then, because you're right, that's not acceptable behavior. I won't be working on it at the dog park, I'll have to find an area, and it's going to have to wait until after his heartworm treatment is completed.
> 
> I do have one more question:
> 
> ...


Thats a sticky question that is heavily debated.  IMO, he is at a good age to neuter, and neutering will take the hormones out of the equation in regards to the dominance issue, leaving the behaviors behind which you can work on with training.

Neutering earlier may, or may not, have stopped this behavior. Some dogs are just naturally more dominant than other, which is more of a genetic/temperament issue. Sometimes neutering at an earlier age can stop hormone produced behaviors, but some people believe that there are increased health risks involved with neutering before a certain age. I have always neutered my dogs, but at various ages. Our Rottie was neutered at 1 year old and his dominant behaviors definitely decreased.


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## JOSHUA SAMPSON (Feb 21, 2010)

And that's why i dont do dog parks!!

Dog Parks Why they are a Bad Idea


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## crs996 (Sep 19, 2001)

Melina said:


> Well, he's not going to the dog park until his heartworm treatment is completed and we've worked on his recall/training, I've decided. The only reason we went last night is because he's only on Doxycycline right now and it isn't imperative that he remain calm, and I knew there wouldn't be many dogs there. Apparently he needs more work than I thought he did, though. He's always so calm and obedient at home that this episode last night surprised me, but that just reinforces the belief that no matter how domesticated we think dogs are, they are still unpredictable at times.
> 
> I know it's not a good idea to get the energy out of your dog at the dog park, you're supposed to do it before hand, but I was dumb and ignored that as I had never had an incident with Koda before. Now I know better. I'm really hoping this was a one time occurrence, but as I said, I'm not going to find out. I won't trust him until he's had more training and obedience work.


I think you're heading in a very positive direction. I wouldn't worry over the incident yesterday, just work on the training and exercise and the likelihood of a repeat is significantly less.

I know they can seem so obedient at home, it can lull you into a false sense of security. Distractions are difficult for dogs and require plenty of training time and consistency. The great thing is that you can begin at home by having him focus on you rather than cats or other distractions. Cats can be a great training tool for distraction proofing. Also try have him in a sit stay or down stay and throw food/toys, etc next to him gradually as your training progresses. It's good to start at home, then move to more challenging environments. And recall, recall, recall! Good luck!


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## DonP (Apr 13, 2009)

My GSD Allie got in one fight in the 14yrs she lived. Otherwise, she was friendly to every person and animal. Don't know what started it. It was over quickly and never happened again.


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## Melina (Feb 20, 2010)

I really don't know what this was. I wouldn't call it a fight, it was over before anything really happened. I grabbed Koda before I could really find out what he was trying to do. All I knew was that it sounded back and Koda went for the Boxer's neck, it didn't _look_ too bad. The Boxer didn't do anything back to Koda. I wasn't about to let go of Koda and let him repeat it to try to figure out what he was going to do, though. I can't figure out what might have triggered it. The Boxer was just running around like a happy little puppy, he's not even a year old I believe, from talking to the guy. The _only_ two things that I can think of are A. The Boxer was male. and B. The whole thing happened near me. The Boxer came happily romping towards me where Koda was, maybe it was some sort of defensive thing with me?

Who knows, like you're all saying. Bottom line is that Koda needs more work than I thought. I can't enroll him in training classes until after his treatment due to the movement restrictions, so that will be the end of June, unfortunately. Before he gets his shots however, I've been reading up on the whole NILIF philosophy, which I've been following, but half-heartedly. I really need to enforce that more, maybe it will ensure that he sees me as Alpha and listens more. We've been working on walking properly on a leash (he is no longer allowed to pull and walk ahead of me), stay (he used to door dash), I am first through doorways, he must sit before he's fed, etc.

Would it be a good idea since I have to wait until May 1st for him to get his Immiticide shots to call upon some neighbors with dogs to socialize him more with dogs on leash? Like take walks with other dogs? We encountered two dogs on our morning walk and he happily whined, seemingly wanting to say hi to them. I really believe what happened last night was an unnatural occurrence for him, but I'd like to keep him and whatever other dog on leash, just in case. I just feel like he'll be missing out on socialization for months because of his treatment, and right now before May, he can get a little bit in.

As I said, I don't know what his history was before I adopted him, but I don't think he got out much. I have no idea how much he was socialized. He gets along fabulously with my other dog and my mother's, and was seemingly fine with other dogs at the park until last night. The reason I don't think he got out much is because he had absolutely no idea how to get into a car when I first got him home and he got carsick the first few times I took him anywhere, which apparently is more stress than motion related. It has since stopped, so it leads me to believe it was stress and he had never really been in a car. His coat was also filthy, but he wasn't emaciated. That tells me that he wasn't on the streets long enough to starve and be so dirty, so why was his coat so gross? He was probably just left in the back yard by his previous owner, yet still fed. I don't think he experienced too much before he came to me. I'm amazed at how loving and sweet he is, and how well he gets along with most dogs I've seen so far...


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## Melina (Feb 20, 2010)

JOSHUA SAMPSON said:


> And that's why i dont do dog parks!!
> 
> Dog Parks Why they are a Bad Idea





> The vast majority of dogs don't want to be pack leaders. They are perfectly happy with their owners assuming the position of leader. As such these dogs expect their pack leader (their owner) to protect them. That's why these dogs will run to their owner when they fell threatened by another dog. When a handler does not protect his dog the dog is in conflict and loses confidence. When the owner ignores the perceived threat their dogs often move into fight or flight.


This explains my other dog, Riley. She was abused and is very submissive. While she's light years away from where she used to be, she is still afraid of most big dogs. I keep bringing her back to the dog park in hopes of her seeing that big dogs are nothing to be afraid of (She runs up and latches on to Koda's neck in play, nips at his ankles. She's totally fine with _him_! It seems to depend on the dog) yet I think I may be doing more damage than good. She will "air snap" at dogs and tell them to back off, and if they don't she may lunge a bit, she's never, ever, fought a dog, and if a dog is persistently in her space, she may eventually run.

After reading that paragraph, maybe she feels I should be protecting her from those "big dogs", and when I don't she goes into fight or flight mode. I do sometimes though, in that I'll bring her over to the small dog area for a bit, but then we'll go back to the big dog area in hopes that she'll be okay. There's not much that I can do to "protect" her from the other dogs, however, as they're not mine, I don't have a right to touch them and get them away.

I think I really need to go back to basics with both my dogs here, I didn't realize what was happening with Riley, and now with Koda. As far as Riley is concerned, she seems to do better with one on one socialization with bigger dogs, not the dog park scenario, so I'm going to go back to that and build up her confidence. I think I'll be staying away from the dog park for a while...


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## Melina (Feb 20, 2010)

Another question...

I've seen people use those remote collars before. They're not pain inducing, are they? It's like a vibration of some sort, right? Do they work well for things like "leave it" and "come" in anyone's experience?

Joshua - Thank you for this website! Remote Collar Dog Training for Pet Owners DVD


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Yes it csn be a pain depending on the level that you set the collar for!


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## crs996 (Sep 19, 2001)

Melina said:


> Would it be a good idea since I have to wait until May 1st for him to get his Immiticide shots to call upon some neighbors with dogs to socialize him more with dogs on leash? Like take walks with other dogs?


As I said before, I don't know your dog, so take what I suggest as being on the safe side. Be careful with on leash meetings, the chances of a fight go up significantly, when dogs meet nose to nose. Walking with other dogs is fine, all in the same direction with space between them. When they've been walking harmoniously for a while, introduce them on a loose (no tension) leash.

The one incident you had with your dog doesn't necessarily mean he has a dog aggression problem, but best to play it safe until you know him well enough to read him.


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## crs996 (Sep 19, 2001)

Melina said:


> Another question...
> 
> I've seen people use those remote collars before. They're not pain inducing, are they? It's like a vibration of some sort, right? Do they work well for things like "leave it" and "come" in anyone's experience?
> 
> Joshua - Thank you for this website! Remote Collar Dog Training for Pet Owners DVD


There are various e-collars that operate primarily by delivering a stimulus of some sort, ranging from a beep to an electric shock. My highest recommendation is that you _do not use them without being trained by a professional_. Timing is incredibly important with e-collars! It is possible to have very negative unintended training results if used without training. That being said, they are highly effective but should not take the place of traditional obedience training.


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## Melina (Feb 20, 2010)

I honestly have no intent to buy one of those remote collars, I've done just fine without one thus far with my other dog, I don't see why I would need one now..I just didn't really know much about them.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Melina said:


> There's not much that I can do to "protect" her from the other dogs, however, as they're not mine, I don't have a right to touch them and get them away.


 You can move in between your dog and the other dog, that's protection. Also, if the owners don't care I will touch and pull the other dog off my dog if needed. I do not allow another dog to dominate mine either if I'm present, they need to deal with me.

Did Koda actually pin the boxer to the ground, or just went for the neck? My dog has a playdate, a boxer, and that's how they both play, biting eath other necks and body slamming, looks pretty scary but they have a great time.


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## geokon_2000 (Jan 25, 2005)

GSD07 said:


> You can move in between your dog and the other dog, that's protection. Also, if the owners don't care I will touch and pull the other dog off my dog if needed. I do not allow another dog to dominate mine either if I'm present, they need to deal with me.


Well said.


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## crs996 (Sep 19, 2001)

GSD07 said:


> You can move in between your dog and the other dog, that's protection. Also, if the owners don't care I will touch and pull the other dog off my dog if needed. I do not allow another dog to dominate mine either if I'm present, they need to deal with me.


Agreed. I will do what is necessary to protect my dog and then leave the dog park if necessary. IMO, one does have a right to take action with another dog if it will ensure your dogs safety.


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## Melina (Feb 20, 2010)

Well, the dogs aren't doing anything to threaten Riley, all they want to do is sniff and/or play with her. No dog has ever attacked her. She just gets scared and "air snaps". I've stepped in between them before, or walked away, Riley will always follow me and it gets her away from the situation. If she's really scared, we do leave and go to the small dog side where she feels safe. If another dog was to every attack her, by all means, if it wasn't my dog, heck yeah I would be on that dog trying to get it off of her.

GSD07 - Koda didn't do any pinning whatsoever. He just lunged for the Boxer's neck and I grabbed him before anything else happened, so I really don't know what his intent was. It could have been very loud, rough play. Or it could have been aggression. I wasn't going to find out. It sounded bad, but it didn't look awful. There wasn't a scuffle or fight between both dogs, just a lunge at the Boxer's neck by Koda, he didn't latch on or anything, then it was over when I grabbed him.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Melina said:


> I've seen people use those remote collars before. They're not pain inducing, are they? It's like a vibration of some sort, right? Do they work well for things like "leave it" and "come" in anyone's experience?





Melina said:


> Joshua - Thank you for this website! Remote Collar Dog Training for Pet Owners DVD




Some collars have both a vibration and emit an electrical stimulation. There's only one that I'd recommend that emits only a vibration. Used as I do for training, the Ecollar (with electrical stim) gives the dog a slight bit of discomfort that lasts for less than a couple of seconds. 

I'd specifically recommend against the DVD from Leerburg, especially for a beginner. He uses MUCH higher levels of stim than are necessary. You can read more about it HERE. 

Much better is the video called _"The Three Action Introduction."_ The bad news is that it's out of print but it sometimes comes up on EBay. 

Ecollars work very well for teaching OB as well as the "leave it."


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

crs996 said:


> There are various e-collars that operate primarily by delivering a stimulus of some sort, ranging from a beep to an electric shock. My highest recommendation is that you do not use them without being trained by a professional. Timing is incredibly important with e-collars! It is possible to have very negative unintended training results if used without training. That being said, they are highly effective but should not take the place of traditional obedience training.


 
I have another opinion, one that's based on the experience of quite a few people. You don't need to be trained by an expert, in fact I don't even know what _"an expert"_ is! The definition varies widely. 

As far as timing, it's important with any tool or method. One does not need better skill with this tool than with any other. In fact I think that timing is much more critical with marker training! 

And finally, I don't see the need for _"traditional obedience training"_ (whatever that means) at all. One can train all the movements of OB with an Ecollar.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Melina said:


> I honestly have no intent to buy one of those remote collars, *I've done just fine without one thus far with my other dog, *I don't see why I would need one now..I just didn't really know much about them. [Emphasis added]


 
As you've discovered, not all dogs are alike. Just because a method worked with one dog, hardly means that it will work with another.


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## Melina (Feb 20, 2010)

Lou - You're absolutely right. All I meant by that is I've been able to handle my dogs thus far and I'm going to do everything I can training wise before resorting to a remote collar.

I've been working with Koda daily. He no longer pulls on the lead, and this is consistent, he will not cross my thigh and walk in front of me or take his eye off where I am, because he now knows if he does, I might turn around and walk in a different direction, courtesy of a video someone posted on here. Apparently it's based off the old Koehler method. Worked like a charm in literally 5 minutes, and apparently it's stuck with him.

I also applied that method out in a large grassy area near my house. I took him out there yesterday morning and refreshed his memory about keeping an eye on me, which he really didn't need, he didn't get snapped around on the leash once. So I dropped the leash. He followed me in perfect heel position, even better than on walks. If I stopped, he walked around the front of me, sat down, and looked up at me, without me even asking him to. If I turned around and changed direction, he was right there on my left. We even encountered 3 kids playing with a ball on the other side of the field, whom he most definitely saw as he stared at them, but when I turned around and walked the other way, he followed me.

I'm going to continue to work with him, but this is definitely progress. I tried dropping the leash in the field with him once before, weeks ago, and he just ran off and did his own thing that time. He didn't bolt, but when I called him, he definitely had selective hearing. I'd say he's doing much better.


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

I have had two forms of aggression at the dog park with my dogs.

First is just dogs being rude to them, or my dog wanting it's space. Not a whole lot I can do about a lot of that. Dogs will be dogs.

The other was a more guarding aggression, guarding my space from other dogs that approached me when they were close. That I did nip in the bud pretty well by watching for the earliest sign of it, and pushing them away behind me and welcoming and petting the other dog like I do my own.


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## Melina (Feb 20, 2010)

We encountered a lot of dogs on our walk this evening, and I asked the owners if it was okay to say hi to them. He showed absolutely no signs of aggression towards them, his tail was wagging and he let out happy whine/barks on the way to greet them. I don't know what that was about the other night with the Boxer, but he seems okay with other dogs since that incident, no aggressive tendencies since. :shrug:


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## crs996 (Sep 19, 2001)

LouCastle said:


> I have another opinion, one that's based on the experience of quite a few people. You don't need to be trained by an expert, in fact I don't even know what _"an expert"_ is! The definition varies widely.
> 
> As far as timing, it's important with any tool or method. One does not need better skill with this tool than with any other. In fact I think that timing is much more critical with marker training!
> 
> And finally, I don't see the need for _"traditional obedience training"_ (whatever that means) at all. One can train all the movements of OB with an Ecollar.


Lou, very interesting articles on your site, I see where you are coming from regarding the leash/collar training, I just never thought about it that way. 

Also, what I meant on being trained by a professional may have been misunderstood, as I meant someone knowledgeable in the use of an ecollar and its use with dogs. This can come in several forms, including the internet, but in my case I learned more quickly by having someone there to guide me through it, it helped with timing. Again, great articles.


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

Don't feel too bad about it. I once had a husky/GSD mix who would normally be very good, but would randomly get aggressive toward random dogs.

Also, I have a 6 month Labrador puppy, Arlo. He escaped from the back yard and ran at a Daschund and an old man. Suddenly I heard a violent snarl from him- definatley not playful. He always wants to play with other dogs, but this time I think the Daschund "told him off" and Arlo decided to get aggressive. 

Dogs have the ability to tell us some things, but who really knows what they are telling/feeling towards eachother! I would say that it could probably happen again, but it's probably not something to lose sleep over.


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