# Question for WL Breeders



## Wilhoit (May 17, 2010)

When you advertise available dogs and state your preference/requirement for " experienced working homes," I take it that you are requiring that prospects need to have already done schutzhund training. I sympathize and would probably prefer/insist on the same qualification. My question is, how does a person (like me), who hasn't yet learned schutzhund acquire this needed qualification? Should people (like me) put off getting a really high quality wl dog (one who can be easily and well trained in schutzhund) from a breeder? Should we, instead, take an experienced schutzhund trainer with us to assess rescues and then train the rescue in schutzhund, and then, many more years down the line, apply for a pup or young dog from a fine wl breeder? Should we consider a retired brood bitch with some schutzhund training and then learn schutzhund with her in order to get this preliminary experience? Any other ideas I should consider? I have no intention of getting my next dog for at least another year, so this question is just a part of my long range preparation.

The reason I would be interested in obtaining a dog from an excellent breeder is just to narrow the odds in my favor with reference to genetic diseases and/or temperament problems. I would want a dog in a year or so who could be trained easily, so a dog with not enough drive to be well trained (one for a "pet home") from a wl breeder is not an option for me.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I think if you start going to a club to observe and learn, the breeder you finally decide on will take that into consideration.
By then you'll know better what you are looking for as far as lines/pedigrees. There also may be someone in the club that has an experienced( or retired) dog you can work to learn more. 
While you wait for a pup, going to a club will be really beneficial to you.
I wouldn't pass on a good WL SchH prospect, they are usually easier to train than one that isn't as biddable or have that work ethic of one that isn't "high quality"


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

We will place a high drive puppy with someone who wants to get started in the sport as long as we see commitment and desire to work the dog.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Wilhoit said:


> I would want a dog in a year or so who could be trained easily, so a dog with not enough drive to be well trained (one for a "pet home") from a wl breeder is not an option for me.


Just because a pup is more "pet quality" than a true working/sport prospect does NOT mean that it doesn't have the drive to become a well trained family member.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Every litter has pups with variations in drive and dominance.....not every pup is going to be sought after by "experienced" working people - most more experienced people buy pups within their clubs or from their trainers who broker dogs - I have actually refused to sell pups to people who are in a club where there are breeders who have litters - and advise the people to get a pup internally as it will just be easier all around....

A client/friend was waiting for over a year for a pup and after a run of bad luck, I found him a pup from another breeder in Czech Republic - super pedigree, sire a BSP/WUSV dog this year, dam from a WUSV male (Belgium) and a top producing female (dam of this years UScA National winner)...he took the pup to a club and was given a very very cold reception - and even told he could not participate in an upcoming seminar because he did not buy the pup from the breeder who was in charge of the seminar. He was ignored by the "in crowd" and then someone else helped him with the pup.....lots of egg on faces....and the pup and friend are slowing becoming part of the group - super super pup - with a beginner, his first pup....

Lots of my pups go to beginners because I want the pup to have a good home - not be a disposable prospect as well.....don't think because you don't have "experience" in the sport you will be ruled out as a home for a pup that has decent working potential.

Lee


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

A small minority of WL breeders advertise that they are looking for working homes BECAUSE the dog would be too much for first time owner. The reason most people advertise that way is they want to get their dog into a home that will title the dog. Its not that the dog couldn't still go into regular home. Anyway, there are many many WL breeders that have pups that don't have these stipulations anyway.JMO


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Not a breeder...but I've seen plenty of people go out and buy a Pup with the thought that they will work the dog in Schutzhund...and then life happens, or they lose interest. Many many pups that were originally purchased with the intention of working end up relegated to the couch, and I would say Most do just fine there. Of course some don't. And that's where you'd probably need to be pretty upfront with your breeder about your skill level and desires. You do not need the most dominant drivey pup in the litter to be successful and enjoying training in SchH. Actually I would argue that a good first dog may not always be the flashiest or the hardest hitting, but a nice resilient dog with good drive that will work with you through your mistakes (Which you will of course make). 

Some breeders will advertise as working homes only as a way of avoiding the average pet person smitten with the sable coloring and idea of a German bloodline who may not expect a GSD to well...behave like a GSD. Look over some of these posts of people who have their first GSD puppy...HELP my puppy's is aggressively biting me! Help my puppy chased down the kids! Help my puppy won't calm down! These sorts of things are all things that people experenced with WL GSDs don't really bat an eye at and know how to work with...but it can be overwhelming for someone with no experience. 

And I agree with Cliff. Most WL breeders want their dogs in homes that will title them because it helps to build the reputation of the kennel. If all their pups go into family homes that do not title the dogs...they might be producing excellent dogs but no one will know because they are not out in the trial reports etc. I think generally if you show commitment and not just a vague idea that you "plan to work" the dog you'll be just fine in


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I have a WL girl who was listed as being suitable for an active pet _or _working home. She still has a LOT of drive, and is ridiculously easy to train because she's very motivated by food and toys, and a genius to boot! I have no doubt that she'd be a very respectable Schuthund dog if I were so inclined, but I'm more interested in agility, flyball, dock diving, maybe herding...

She has been a challenge in many ways and a huge learning experience, but she's also been a ton of fun. In my correspondence with the breeder I was very clear on what my plans for her were (and were not), how much experience I'd had with GSDs, what kind of training I'd done in the past, even going to far as to describe a typical day and week in the life, to make sure that she wasn't going to be too much dog for us. I will say that she's a bit more than I anticipated sometimes, but not more than I can handle. 

I would not have inquired about a dog listed as suitable for an experienced working home, nor would the breeder have considered letting me have one.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

And some of those pups are medium drive not high caliber sch prospects, but would be happy working or being a pet. I've sold a few pets that now have their BH's and their owners initially had no intention of doing schutzhund at all.


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## Deuce (Oct 14, 2010)

BlackGSD said:


> Just because a pup is more "pet quality" than a true working/sport prospect does NOT mean that it doesn't have the drive to become a well trained family member.


I TOTALLY agree.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

We do the same as Carolina. Focus is 1st and foremost the home. It also depends on the breeding/litter. If it is not a good fit, we will not sell the puppy. Our last two have been very strong, but if the person has experience plus an excellent support system (club, training group,etc), that will be great. 

We do ask about the club/training situation and if they will be OK with a puppy from another breeder. We have had one person not be totally upfront with us (the breeders in the club were not happy) and we pulled the puppy back. Best for the puppy and the person. Puppy went to an excellent PP home.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I wouldn't be comfortable in a club that wanted only their breeders dogs involved. I can see if some of the dogs are from one breeder or whatever, but to be looked down upon because you aren't purchasing from certain lines or breeders would make me question my affiliation with the club.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

onyx'girl said:


> I wouldn't be comfortable in a club that wanted only their breeders dogs involved. I can see if some of the dogs are from one breeder or whatever, but to be looked down upon because you aren't purchasing from certain lines or breeders would make me question my affiliation with the club.


:thumbup::toasting:

Often if someone is in a club like that and DOES get a pup from the TD, helper or whoever the breeder was, they (the breeder) STILL acts like it is their dog! 

If a club can't/won't treat all dogs equally no matter WHERE they came from, I don't want any part of them!


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I've never done Schutzhund and am getting a high-quality pup from a working line breeder. I specified that I'm looking for an active companion first and foremost and that I plan to do some sort of sport activity, most likely agility or obedience. But just because a dog is geared more towards a buyer like me doesn't mean he'd be a total washout as in SchH. If I decide to do it with my pup he'll probably do just fine at local trials. 

As a first-time WL dog owner the breeder probably won't sell you a nationals-quality dog, but you and I probably couldn't handle that type of dog anyway. 

Find a good WL breeder and be up front with them about what you're looking for; they won't turn you down just because you've never competed before.


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## Wilhoit (May 17, 2010)

You all are giving great advice! 

I should probably clarify a little as to why I'm interested in schutzhund and a wl GSD. My GSD, Wilhoit, was naturally protective when we were in the occasional unsafe situation. Fortunately, he was also obedient to me (obedience was an integral part of our daily routine), so I was able to "deactivate" him when necessary. I wanted to train him in schutzhund simply to train the "out," so as to have the best possible control of him and keep us both out of trouble. I was unable to train him in schutzhund because he had no play drive. I also thought, and still think, that the three phases of schutzhund are an excellent discipline and a good way to exercise a dog's mind and body.

I would want my next dog to share the excellent traits which Wilhoit had--a natural kind of obedience which made him love to do things for and with me, a rock steady calmness so that he could walk next to giant earthmovers as if he were strolling in the park, complete reliability, common sense, sanity, and, yes, his protectiveness. These traits cry out for development in a discipline like schutzhund. I also tentatively believe that the working lines are probably my best bet for finding a dog with these traits. Obviously, my next dog is also going to need play drive, as well!


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## Wilhoit (May 17, 2010)

The most useful part of everyone's advice concerned the relationship between schutzhund clubs and the breeders which belong to them. I'm going to have to include this in my research. Getting opinions on this from a variety of sources was also appreciated. It indicates such relationships are widespread and I need to expect them (and "walk delicately"!). It is also good to know that, after I've been carefully vetted, I could get a good dog from a good breeder that would be suitable for schutzhund and then have the 2 of us learn it. Thank you, all of you!


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