# This training method seems very cruel



## ponyfarm (Apr 11, 2010)

A friend of my mom's does schh with their dog. They love this dog. They explained to my mom the other day that he is getting too close to the helper before he is to "bite'. (sorry, probably explaining it all wrong!). Anyway, to get him to perform better, they are using an electric cattle prod and a sharpened prong.

WOW! I would imagine that once the dogs are ramped up, then the handler needs strong 'brakes', but that seems unfair, and cruel.

Is this common?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

*NO!!! * NOT common at all, totally nuts! I've heard of sharpened prongs before, but never heard of using a cattle prod! That's just crazy.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

IMHO, Schutzhund is a _sport_. It doesn't save lives or find lost children or solve world hunger. If your dog needs to be subjected to an electric cattle prod, sharpened prong, kicks in the testicles, or any of the other horror stories I've heard about a handful of trainers, you're _playing the wrong sport_ or using the wrong trainer.


In all sports, some people's egos get in the way of their common sense. It's the exact same thing as using acid on gaited horses to make them step higher.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I've seen one used but not for that reason.


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## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

Not that I am aware of! That seems completely uneducated, and not even really "old-school", more like "never was a training method"...I think it would even be ridiculous to call it a training method at all.

I have only trained with 3 ScH clubs, so maybe I have just not "been around" enough, but I have never heard of using an electric cattle prod. I have heard of some "trainers" using sharpened prongs though.

The way I see it is, protection is a higher level of Obedience. If you can't get your dog to listen to you in front of the helper, then they should not be allowed in front of one until you can get them to listen without the helper present. It is SUPER dangerous to have an uncontrolled dog practicing protection (even in a sport), and the clubs I work with would NEVER allow this. Although, they would never use the cattle prod or sharpened prong either. If you have to use these tools, you never had control to begin with!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

> If you have to use these tools, you never had control to begin with!


Bingo!


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

:crazy:


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

I was talking with Ez's breeder about this the other day. I was shocked that someone would use a cattle prod... Maybe I am naive but no dog is so hard that they need a cattle prod to get through to them


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## ponyfarm (Apr 11, 2010)

Emoore said:


> IMHO, Schutzhund is a _sport_. It doesn't save lives or find lost children or solve world hunger. If your dog needs to be subjected to an electric cattle prod, sharpened prong, kicks in the testicles, or any of the other horror stories I've heard about a handful of trainers, you're _playing the wrong sport_ or using the wrong trainer.
> 
> 
> In all sports, some people's egos get in the way of their common sense. It's the exact same thing as using acid on gaited horses to make them step higher.


In horse sports and dog sports, I think things go on "in the name of training" that go unspoken. Heads are turned. "We had to do it to train them. We still love them and take good care of them." Makes me sad.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I have seen this plenty of times, in more than one "top-notch" club.


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

ponyfarm said:


> In horse sports and dog sports, I think things go on "in the name of training" that go unspoken. Heads are turned. "We had to do it to train them. We still love them and take good care of them." Makes me sad.


Sad, but true. Not sure if it's still done, but I know with some trotters/hackneys they used to drive nails in the soles of their feet to teach them to pick their legs up higher... get more "action."


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## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

ponyfarm said:


> Anyway, to get him to perform better, they are using an electric cattle prod and a sharpened prong.


 
They should sit on that cattle prod!!!! 


:angryfire::angryfire::angryfire:


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I want my dogs to perform and will try a lot of things to see what works... but I will NEVER subject my dog to cruelty!

Unreal!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

That's the kind of people that give a bad name to Schutzhund. Abusive methods are not justified by anything, ever. That is why there are so many nitwits out there trying to ban the sport, trying ban prongs, e-collars etc.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Mrs.K said:


> That's the kind of people that give a bad name to Schutzhund. Abusive methods are not justified by anything, ever. That is why there are so many nitwits out there trying to ban the sport, trying ban prongs, e-collars etc.


Not sure who the nitwits are though? 

Liesje - was there something that was accomplished when you saw this done?

Are there reasons behind this that ever justify this? I mean...I am not imagining any, but I am trying not to shut my mind down immediately. Can't imagine seeing that and not saying or doing something unless there was a good reason for it. And having trouble imagining a good reason! But boy would I like to go to work with the prodee and let them have it when they don't meet expectations. 

This board always does a good job of educating people who don't know about the sport, and hopefully that will happen here.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Jean, you might wan to remove the kennel name and gender of the person in the first post. I already found out who it is and if I can do it, everybody else can too. While this person should be banned from the sport for even using these methods and was dumb enough to tell somebody that they are doing it... it's not fair to Ponyfarm that she'd get into trouble over that. She ment no harm and can't edit the post anymore.

Word travels too fast in the world of Schutzhund and she could get into SERIOUS trouble over putting the word out.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Liesje - was there something that was accomplished when you saw this done?


Yes, actually. In the situation I observed (which was not my club, not at my club, and not involving people in my club) it was *not* used for control. As far as I know that dog has never had control issues in protection. For what they were working on in that session, it worked well. I don't condone it, I'm not sure that would have been my "tool" of choice, but it was what it was and in that case, given the dog and the goal of that session it did work. I'm talking about a cattle prod, not a sharpened prong. I personally have never seen a sharpened prong or seen one used.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

What is the matter with people? The person asking if it is cruel to use a sharpened pinch and a cattle prod could get into "SERIOUS trouble"? From who??

Here is the truth, people who have to resort to that crap don't know how to train dogs. Unfortunately, there are quite a few people with that mentality who own dogs, horses etc. Then we have the people who don't use them but are more than willing to justify their use. You are as bad as the rest of them.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I grew up on a ranch. I've used cattle prods. Not on a regular basis, we usually worked cattle with horses and dogs, but occasionally an unruly beast-- often the bull-- would charge at the horses or the dogs and we'd have to get the prod out. Anything that can make a 2000lb bad-tempered bull jump up and scream should never be used on a dog.


Ponyfarm isn't in the Schutzhund world. He/she isn't worried about being blacklisted at trials. Unless the trainer in question is some sort of criminal stalker, I doubt Ponyfarm is worried about being in serious trouble with him.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Vandal said:


> What is the matter with people? The person asking if it is cruel to use a sharpened pinch and a cattle prod could get into "SERIOUS trouble"? From who??
> 
> Here is the truth, people who have to resort to that crap don't know how to train dogs. Unfortunately, there are quite a few people with that mentality who own dogs, horses etc. Then we have the people who don't use them but are more than willing to justify their use. You are as bad as the rest of them.


From who? Can she proof it? If I can find out within seconds who it is just by the given information anyone can. It's hearsay. It can't be proven. If the word gets out that this person is doing it she can get the girl into serious trouble about badmouthing her. 

It is one thing to anonymously report a person that is abusing a dog to the regional director but if you can't proof it there can be a LOT of drama. Let's not forget that the person in question is a friend of her mother. It can end in Drama that ponyfarm surely didn't want to cause. 

The person in question is not somebody that trials on a local club level. We all know how much trouble that can mean. 
And lets not forget about the bad, really bad press this can cause for Schutzhund itself. Report it to the regional director, anonymously if you have to but if anyone has the idea to go there, take some pictures and take that to the local newspaper... an accomplished handler team doing abusive stuff like that could easily make the national news and can you imagine the outrage in the dog world? LOTS of damage for the Club and everybody involved whether they like it or not. 
If they can deal with it before it gets out too far... it's better for everyone involved.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> Jean, you might wan to remove the kennel name and gender of the person in the first post. I already found out who it is and if I can do it, everybody else can too. While this person should be banned from the sport for even using these methods and was dumb enough to tell somebody that they are doing it... it's not fair to Ponyfarm that she'd get into trouble over that. She ment no harm and can't edit the post anymore.
> 
> Word travels too fast in the world of Schutzhund and she could get into SERIOUS trouble over putting the word out.


I think that anybody who is involved in such cruelty to animals should be publicly exposed and possibly prosecuted. The compassionate person who points this out ought to be praised-so that being said-who in the **** is going to get him or her in trouble? If they do they should post that as well-because this is just wrong.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

We condone it if we do not stand up against it. I have sat on the sidelines plenty of times and not said anything. Just as sick at myself as with what I have witnessed.
People talk about "the end of schutzhund" being when some schutzhund dog bites an innocent person. I disagree. The end will be when videos of these practices show up on the nightly news.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

gagsd said:


> We condone it if we do not stand up against it. I have sat on the sidelines plenty of times and not said anything. Just as sick at myself as with what I have witnessed.
> People talk about "the end of schutzhund" being when some schutzhund dog bites an innocent person. I disagree. The end will be when videos of these practices show up on the nightly news.


EXACTLY THAT! 
It needs to be dealt with by the regional director BEFORE it gets out on the news!
This kind of stuff is the reason why they are trying to get Schutzhund banned in Austria.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

i've seen one used once, can't say i cared for the people or their training. It sucked and they wondered why the dog stayed so far back in the blind. The fat mother doing the training said he needed it to bring out aggression. I could only think that his fat ass should get in shape and learn how to get in a dogs head and learn how to be a trainer. Haven't seen them since, i assume they fell by the wayside, or just continue to do that at home.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

crackem said:


> i've seen one used once, can't say i cared for the people or their training. It sucked and they wondered why the dog stayed so far back in the blind. The fat mother doing the training said he needed it to bring out aggression. I could only think that his fat ass should get in shape and learn how to get in a dogs head and learn how to be a trainer. Haven't seen them since, i assume they fell by the wayside, or just continue to do that at home.


Perhaps he needed someone to use one on him-you know to make sure that he kept up a rigorous workout-and to keep him jogging when he got tired. See how he likes it.


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Perhaps he needed someone to use one on him-you know to make sure that he kept up a rigorous workout-and to keep him jogging when he got tired. See how he likes it.


Holy crap! Thats brilliant! I'm totally going into the personal trainer business... 

I bet that it would work too


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

BR870 said:


> Holy crap! Thats brilliant! I'm totally going into the personal trainer business...
> 
> I bet that it would work too


LOL-it probably would, I mean after all the people who use this method are going on the theory that-you will do as I say or you will be in some serious pain. That would work but it would be horrible. Same concept for those doing this to their dogs-and since they want to train their animals this way then maybe they want to subject themselves to the same "effective" training method.


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## t.lesniak (Jan 4, 2010)

An e-collar uses electrical stim and is worn on the dog's neck.
A prod uses electrical stim and is held by the helper or a spotter.
I have seen a prod used at 3 different clubs on several dogs.
I DO NOT use either on my dogs. 
To each his own. 
The majority of the general public thinks regular prong collars are cruel.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Problem is, if I walked out on or reported every single thing I thought was unnecessary or cruel or stupid or just not how I want to train who would be left to train with? Is a cattle prod illegal? I have no idea. I thought it was a livestock thing.

My dogs are mine, I only use tools I think are good for them and I am comfortable with. I direct their training and that includes protection. I won't own a dog that would need such extreme tools either for control or stim or anything. I like prong collars and hate e-collars. I won't use an e-collar on my dogs (not because of the "shock is mean" camp) but I doubt I'd find a club anywhere that never uses an e-collar. These days I see people using two of them on one dog.

I can't wrap my mind around a sharpened prong....how that could be used with any outcome other than a seriously injured dog...?! A cattle prod....I'm a city girl and have no idea how these things even work but it doesn't sound like something that needs to come near my dogs. They activate on their own (or when the helper works them correctly to stimulate the right drives at the right thresholds) and I don't have secondary control issues with either dog in any phase or aspect of life, really. These sorts of threads make me glad my dogs are pets/companions first. Some of the tools and methods I hear about make the dogs sound so out of control or overloaded and unbalanced one way or the other they are not possible to live with, in which case I wouldn't be owning such a dog anyway let alone trying to train it. Schutzhund should not be THAT difficult, after all it's supposed to showcase the natural abilities of our dogs...


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Any physics majors out there? 
About the only comparisons I can find are.... Up to 10 volt battery for ecollar, and up to 10000 volts for cattle prod.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

t.lesniak said:


> An e-collar uses electrical stim and is worn on the dog's neck.
> A prod uses electrical stim and is held by the helper or a spotter..


An e-collar has widely varying levels of stimulation and can be set so low that the dog barely feels it. An e-collar _can_ be abused, but it can also used humanely to cause discomfort and low levels of pain, not agony. I grew up around cattle, ranching etc and have never seen a cattle prod with varying levels of stimulation. They're designed to cause enough pain to get a one-ton wild bull to cooperate. They're also frequently used on elephants. I don't see how their use can be justified on dogs.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

t.lesniak said:


> An e-collar uses electrical stim and is worn on the dog's neck.
> A prod uses electrical stim and is held by the helper or a spotter.
> I have seen a prod used at 3 different clubs on several dogs.


One time I decided to put an e-collar up to my neck and say something just to see what it felt like. It was a little sting, and I think the 'surprise' was the worst part. Definitely wasn't painful. 
I would never dare to try a cattle prod on myself, nor my dogs.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Konotashi said:


> One time I decided to put an e-collar up to my neck and say something just to see what it felt like. It was a little sting, and I think the 'surprise' was the worst part. Definitely wasn't painful.
> I would never dare to try a cattle prod on myself, nor my dogs.


It really depends which kind of e-collar you use and what level it is on. A friend of mine put one around his leg an hit it on the highest level. It wiped him off his feet and he was laying on the floor shaking like he was hit with a tazer. That collar was used on a dog and the dog was fried several times on the highest level by another "friend" even though it's illegal to use it in Germany.

Also, most bark collars start on a low level and then increases the intensity each time the dog barks.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> It really depends which kind of e-collar you use and what level it is on. A friend of mine put one around his leg an hit it on the highest level. It wiped him off his feet and he was laying on the floor shaking like he was hit with a tazer. That collar was used on a dog and the dog was fried several times on the highest level by another "friend" even though it's illegal to use it in Germany.
> 
> Also, most bark collars *start on a low level and then increases the intensity each time the dog barks.*



This was the kind we have, but it had the option of being able to set it on a certain level, and we kept it at 2 or 3, usually. That was when I tried it out.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

We don't even know if this case involved a cattle prod or an e collar. The information is second or third hand and the original OP is not even sure what the equip is or does. Having said that, I think we can all agree that the use and misuse of these type of tools(cattleprods) is extremely rare. Heck, I would venture that 98% of the people on this list have never seen a cattleprod used on a dog....that being as it is I highly doubt that the sky is falling as some people like to dramatize anything. 
Can we all just let the OP know that in answer to her question, cattleprods are not instruments that are used in the sport on a meaningful level. 
Shoot, there are people who like to have sex in bondage and degrading conditions, I don't think we can correlate that with people who routinely have sex. Maybe the OP has the info right, regardless, it is very infrequent and does not represent the sport or responsible dog training on any level. JMO


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

you are giving people way too much credit, Cliffson. Way too much. 

Word travels so darn fast in the Schutzhund world it's not even funny. If stuff like that gets out and people know who it is. In todays world, it makes the news really fast. 

Not too long ago there got a video of a Schutzhundler out on the news. All they did was to work the dog in defense. Her handler carreer was OVER. It was normal things you'd see on every Schutzhund place but because she actively worked him in defense, with an e-collar, it made it onto the news. 

You wouldn't believe the outcry. 

It's not that the world is falling and if you think this is dramatizing things, I've seen handler careers ruined for less. 

If it is true, it should be dealt with. If it isn't true...let's move on. 

But with stuff like that, you've got to be careful because there are people that will happily send you death threats for giving your dog dirty water.

If you do things like that with your dog and these are common sense rule:

a: Don't talk about it to anyone, your worst enemies in cases like that are your best friends because even though they mean well they'll probably babble it out (no pun to ponyfarm intended it's going on for years)

b: Make sure that the helper doesn't talk about it. 

c: NO CAMERA! For gods sake, leave the camera at home!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Well to me the issue is twofold...the backlash like Sandra is talking about, but also why people would need these "tools" in the first place? Even among those involved in SchH, say we had a perfect world where no public could view us or criticize us or hold us accountable for anything...it seems like the general consensus here is still that these tools and methods are unnecessary.

Our training group never allows visitors or new people to photograph or video, but not because we want to hide using sharpened prongs and cattle prods. There is a reason for rules like no video, but it doesn't have to be so that we can get away with stuff like that.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Just watch that video, even if you don't understand. That is how far it has come with Schutzhund. Watch it through to the point where they start showing the Schutzhund part. Schutzhundeausbildung brutale Tierquälerei? - Die besten Videos. 

It's the Worldchampion (a dutchie) that is talked about in this video. Nothing special. It was filmed and made it to the news. She was not only demonized but actually reported as animal abuser to the police because she used compulsion. 

The girl in the background didn't help with the Statement (it was fun) "We don't need to go out into the public with that dog anymore, at least not today."


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Liesje said:


> Well to me the issue is twofold...the backlash like Sandra is talking about, but also why people would need these "tools" in the first place? Even among those involved in SchH, say we had a perfect world where no public could view us or criticize us or hold us accountable for anything...it seems like the general consensus here is still that these tools and methods are unnecessary.
> 
> Our training group never allows visitors or new people to photograph or video, but not because we want to hide using sharpened prongs and cattle prods. There is a reason for rules like no video, but it doesn't have to be so that we can get away with stuff like that.


I perfectly understand that. If you put videos out, you want to control what is going out. It's not only the bad stuff that is used. All it takes is a bad day for the dog and your dogs name could be dragged through the wringer. There are many reasons why it needs to be controled by the handler and not somebody else.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I just see it as a courtesy. Now at a trial, public seminar, other public events...I think it's fair that any bystander can take pics and videos and comment all they want. But private training on private property, to me that's different. But, probably another topic altogether...

However I think that if training gets to the point where we'd worry about what we're doing being filmed, then something does need to change.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Liesje said:


> I just see it as a courtesy. Now at a trial, public seminar, other public events...I think it's fair that any bystander can take pics and videos and comment all they want. But private training on private property, to me that's different. But, probably another topic altogether...


Even on a Seminar I'd ask before I take somebody elses video.


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