# Input on 15 week old - Pic included



## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

I am first time dog owner (had a couple dogs as a kid) and first time GSD owner. I am married and have two boys 12 and 5 and 4 cats. We live on 12 non fenced acres. Apex our pup is 15 weeks and we have had him since he was 7 weeks. We did not do our homework on dog shopping. He does not have papers. Wow 8 whirlwind weeks. I have read everything I can get my hands on for weeks, watched hours and hours of videos and have done my best to process the information and institute what I can. This site has been incredibly helpful and I appreciate the insight, advice and experience each of you have taken the time out of your lives to post here. I have to say that we tried NO bite, what a joke; the day I let Apex bite me and used ouch changed everything for the good. Thank you for that sticky! Apex is crate trained. I think Apex has a high prey drive, wants to chase our cats, in the home it is coming along slowly he ignores them more each day…outside is another story. I am hoping this just takes time. Apex is always on a leash except for when we go to our backwoods to explore, this was his first week getting to be off leash in the woods. I have made the training mistakes of too much too soon as far as expectations so we are backing off and letting dog be a dog. He was ill when we got him and is behind on his shots he will be complete at 18 weeks. We have had decent amount of people come and go from the home and so far he likes people. I was worried about not exposing him to the world and took him to a quite park the other day with a pond, he was nervous when he saw two people fishing a quite wolf and some hackles up between his shoulders and did not want to approach, he stayed far far away, I did not push we ignored and ran around playing. He loves to play tug his favorite and likes to play fetch. I am a huge fan of the Ellis videos , Apex is VERY food motivated and rather smart. We are kind of starting over because of the mistakes I have made. Our current focuses;In and out of crate or ex pen or doors with manners, kid manners (dog and kids);sit, down (he does not like to down!), a little stay, informal recall, leave it, associating his name with positive, being calm in the house, hand feeding, catching him in the right frame of mind for a nice leash walk(getting a harness for the times when he has to leashed walked but pulls and also for restrained recall and play in future), ignoring and going into down for the cats. I work from home and my husband stays at home, exercise does not seem to be an issue yet. We will start puppy classes next month I am currently shopping options and viewing classes. 


Gosh when I write that down it sure seems like so much……I am sure I have left things out, but this is probably to long as it is. I did forgot the most important thing engagement, focus just bond building thru love, play and food. 


To finally get to the point, what do you think about thepond experience? Reading what I have about genetics I am kind of freaked out. If he is nervous is distraction play the right thing to do? I wanted to try attention getting and sit under distraction to see how we did. Maybe a dead parking lot better? 


He has learned to take food gently. When I have tried to hold the food like Ellis(only 2x) to use it as lure he is chomp chomp chomping and it’s really uncomfortable. This is also conflicting with the way I have taught him to take food gently and with permission. We are using the marker good. Now we are both confused. 


I was thinking about training him how he should react to the doorbell, knocks, and people entering the home. Would this be too much too soon? We would do this slowly in broken down sections example start with just the doorbell. We have a crate with a pad and a dog bed, which would be thebetter target for where he should go when the bell rings? I was thinking crate.I don’t know if what we are currently doing is keeping him stimulated mentally enough, so I thought this might be a good addition. 


One more thing LOL We have trained leave it, now the puppy seems to purposely take something he knows will follow a leave it command just for the treat LOL. Should we remove getting treats for him leaving it? I don’t mind keeping this as fun game, but I need training to! HA :smile2:


Thank you in advance for your advice and time. Please anyinput on topic or not is welcomed and more so appreciated. We want to be great dog owners. As I have come to find out this is not easy :surprise:


I am having trouble with my account so sorry if any of this is messed up. Now I have to learn to use the forum :nerd:


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## Raisedbyshepherds (Mar 30, 2017)

People more experienced than I will post with more specific advise I'm sure. Sounds like he lacks confidence. Take your time and set him up for success. Fun training, things he can easily succeed at. Sort of like building a human childs confidence. 
Get him out and let him see and experience more things, but in a safe, easy way that wont scare him. He should adjust over time. We had a dog with extreme lack of confidence once. He needs to learn that youll watch out for him, and that he can trust you to keep him safe. Dont force anything on him... Let him go to it gently with time. Engineer activities you know he can do well at just so he'll have something to feel good about accomplishing. Dogs like this sometimes crumble easily so dont be harsh with him. He may never be a brave dog, but with time he should be able to live a normal life. Getting him out and exposing him to the world is super important here.... Otherwise the possibility of fear biting later on....he needs to know the world can be a happy place and its not all against him


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Has he had more experiences around people to judge by? At his age he is kind of learning about pack vs other people and I would not make such a big deal about it if he loves people who come over and does not flip other flags. Hackles and wood could just be a little excitement. I would say more exposures like that and do some fun things with other people in the back ground instead of focusing on them. Some obiedience. Some tug. and let him learn to just ignore them (which is what you want)


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Take a few steps back and work with him at home for a week with commands and play he is good at to boost his confidence and your leadership. Once you have established this, it is much easier for him to deal with the outside world. Make sure people don't attack him with "Oh, what a cute pupeeeeeeeeee!" but step in front of idiots and tell them that you are training him to ignore people. He doesn't need to be petted by strangers. As long as he can learn that they are a normal part of the world, that would be great. I am sure there is a lot of fun stuff to work on on your acres. Time to enjoy him and not worrying too much. As long as your property is safe for off leash work, let him off leash so he learns that this is a normal part of his life. I never leash young pups unless we are in a traffic area or leash-required-areas. To them it never matters if they are on or off leash.
Also avoid dog parks as he may run from a dog and trigger prey drive in that other dog. Then you are further back than square one.
Just my 2 cents, ok .....3.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

He looks alert and very handsome. Have fun. I'm sure you'll receive a lot of advice, balance any different ideas with what feels right for you and your pup. Relax, you've got this.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

@raisedbyshepard - great advice. Any activity in particular you would recommend for fun @ home confidence building? We do try to limit the NO so that life in general is good and we take notice of good behavior even if not asked for. I often remind my self he is just a baby, so no we are not harsh. It's good to know we should not force anything uncomfortable onto him, thanks for pointing that out.I will continue to build his trust in his family.

@NancyJ - just people coming to our home, which has been fine. I agree that people need to be just part of the world and back ground noise. I know as an adult he will not get the same puppy response lol, so might as well teach him to indifferent now. Thanks for offering the relief, im actually less worried now  
Guess I need confidence building to so ty 

@wolfy dog - right to the point thanks. Commands, play equal confidence and leadership. I agree that people need to respect my space and my puppy. I will take your advice. Like I said above. I actually did not consider off leash training and play. I will certainly start now. It's a goal for us, we want a dog who can be off leash and trusted, we love to hike and camp. Apex loves water so off leash fun in the water would be great 50' line is a pain!
Yes no dog parks. Puppy class will be his dog intro, I actually don't know anyone with a dog unfortunately. 

@ksotto333 I do need to relax lol, my brain is on overload! Thank you  

I'm sure none of my tags work, hopefully you all get the message I appreciate your input. All solid advice. Going to kick back a week and play some games off leash and on, take all the advice and try again soon. Thanks again


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

One thing I did was go to dog parks and stay OUTSIDE the fence . Just walking around outside and I would not hesitate to wave off someone approaching.


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## Raisedbyshepherds (Mar 30, 2017)

Well we really didnt do any special exercises per se...... More emphasis on lavishly praising his successes at even the tiniest things, not getting frustrated at all when his lack of confidence rears up... We did more basic training than normal, easy stuff for the dog, just to have more opportunity for him to feel good about himself. And tons and tons of new experiences, allowing him to take his own time adjusting to each thing. Every little tiny good new experience is like stacking another block in a foundation. The more blocks, the better the foundation.......


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

*Update*

Since my last post Apex is coming along nicely. We joined a puppy class, after I read hours of puppy class forum post. The trainer was great with Apex, he was shy about joining the class, he joined at his own pace without being forced or flooded very cool. The trainer stated he has agreat recovery time, something I have seen mentioned here. The class only had two puppies they are sister border collies. The puppy play was well handled by the trainer and the pups played chase with no biting. The pups focused nicely on their owners when play time was over. Since the class (and advice given here) Apex is more confident in himself and me when he seesother people, dogs and objects when we go out to parks for walks. :smile2:

Fast forward to the second class. Apex really has taken a liking to one girl pup he licks her face, play bows to her very sweet. She is also a very sweet pup. 

Here is where I am asking for input. There was Schnauzer that joined the class; all these pups are a couple months older than my pup. The Schnauzer lives with another adult dog. The Schnauzer would jump on Apex's back. At first the trainer stopped him, but she seemed less diligent this time. Apex clearly was not enjoying this dog’s behavior. Apex would raise his hackles and run from him or try to avoid him, I think he was getting bullied; this dog would not leave him alone. I stayed close and would step in between the dogs when this happened. Apex got fed up and decided to treat the other dogin a similar manner, but Apex actually mounted him. I stopped my puppy play atthat point and the trainer followed suit and ended all puppy play. 


I want to keep my pup sweet, like how he plays with the girl he likes. How would you handle this?


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Would it be possible to let Apex and the bc girl play in a separate area?If not,no playtime for Apex at class is my vote.Maybe you could schedule a play date with the bcc or even just a little while after class each week.


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## SteelesMom (May 7, 2017)

I'm certainly no expert, but I posted a similar question here a while back about puppy play at Steele's class. He started changing the way he played with our cat, older dog, and started barking at dogs on walks. Advice was; no puppy play especially if there's a dog not behaving themselves during puppy play. Since then Steele plays for a few minutes with his one sweet buddy there, then I put him on the leash and practice commands at the back of the room. It's really paid off, as he will still show interest and bark on rot twice, but I can't get his focus very quickly. Once that happens and he sees his clicker and treats he forgets all about the distractions. I hope that helps! 


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

Makes perfect sense, just unfortunate, he enjoys his positive playtime, but I would do as you both suggested with my kids at a playground. My pup should be no different. Thanks for your time.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

That's why I never take my pups to puppy class. The first class for my pups is a basic obedience class. I choose nice adult dogs to teach them outside the class situation. The trainer doesn't manage it very well if she allows a Schnauzer to bully your pup. This one experience can change your pup. I think the best way for new owners is to attend a puppy class without their pup for the first few lessons and then in a very small class, apply what learned without puppy play.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

Basic obedience is about 6 months of age? Basicobedience class does not involve dog to dog interactions typically? I do notknow anyone with dogs.  

I have not yet visited our local dog park, I wouldnot take my pup to play there, but if fenced we could play outside of it likeothers suggested. 

I did find a very small class, I could show upafter puppy play. We do well training together, just from what is available viathe internet, books etc., I know he most likely won't always be so easy. 

While I know positive experience is key, I feelmean to not let him play. 

If you were me, would you tell the trainer how youfeel? Maybe it would make a difference..... 

If I stopped dog to dog interactions, whileexposing him visually to other dogs, would his sweet nature likely stay as itis now?


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## Raisedbyshepherds (Mar 30, 2017)

If he is a sweet natured dog that is his personality and he will likely stay that way.... Imo more harm than good can come out of dog on dog interactions with dogs he doesnt know well. They dont really need that interaction with other dogs anyway.
Can anyone direct the OP to one of the long threads on socialization and exposure? Im still learning to navigate this forum so cant do it myself..


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

I did read the rethinking socialization thread, I think every single post lol. That is where I learned to be watchful of his experiences amoung other post. It is hard for me to get thru my thick head that he does not need other dogs in his life. This site has already prevented me from making many mistakes. I will read it again, as my pup grows my understanding of what people say changes. He did get a huge confidence boost from the first class, hopefully the 2nd didn't do any harm. Just knowing he is lover of pups is good. thanks


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## SteelesMom (May 7, 2017)

Btw I meant to say CAN get his focus soon. My autocorrect has been a pain lately. :/
I know it's a bummer for them not to play, but one way I've combated this is to make sure I take him to a local hiking park everyday for a walk. When he sees other dogs I break out his favorite treats, and really start working on focus. What I'm ending up with is great progress! Initially (after the puppy play stuff) it took a while to get his attention, now he looks at the other dogs and immediately looks at me because he knows we are going to practice commands. I'm hoping all of this work will result in us being able to just walk by other dogs one day without Steele giving them any attention. I feel like what WolfyDog said is right because I know Steeles interactions with dogs changed greatly once he started to participate in the puppy play. I wish I had never done it. 


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## SteelesMom (May 7, 2017)

Apex1 said:


> Basic obedience is about 6 months of age? Basicobedience class does not involve dog to dog interactions typically? I do notknow anyone with dogs.
> 
> I have not yet visited our local dog park, I wouldnot take my pup to play there, but if fenced we could play outside of it likeothers suggested.
> 
> ...




I did talk to my trainer about it. She states that the least human interaction the best. I told her my concern with that is that Steeles behavior has changed since interacting this way. She stated that was just a stage. I also told her that he is going to be much bigger than any of the other dogs in class; I can't chance him picking up any bad habits. Our dogs will be big, strong, and some have an unpleasant or fear-driven view of GSDs. I was adamant about wanting Steele to be a calm dog that makes the breed proud. Since I talked to her, I let him play with one sweet puppy. They have fun and it only lasts for a couple minutes. When others join and I just put him on leash. I don't ask her permission. By taking control and putting him on the leash, she would then have to ask me to take him off leash and she's not done that. Maybe if you talk to her about your desire for a well behaved dog, and the differences in GSD to the others, she will understand and not feeling as though you are undermining her methods. I will say, the fact that I had to have this discussion has made me wish I found me a trainer with more GSD experience. Or just GSD. Choices are limited in my immediate area, so we may start traveling soon! 
I'm sure it will go well! I look at the positive which is that Steele has learned a lot in just 4 short months.  Apex is a lucky dog that you are working so hard!


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

We did obidience classes and there was never any play involved. We worked on the dogs ignoring each other. The dogs were able to greet only. Worked out great for us.
We let her play with dogs that we knew outside of class. Dogs who aren't going to jump on her like that.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

Really great input to keep me focused on the end goal. A pup focused on his family, calm and neutral with sweetness throw in. With all of your input I think I can develop a simple plan that keeps us on track and out of class. Thank you :smile2:


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

Really great input to keep me focused on the end goal. A pup focused on his family, calm and neutral with sweetness throw in. With all of your input I think I can develop a simple plan that keeps us on track and out of class. Thank you:smile2:
Sorry for the late response, as much as I love living in the woods, internet is awful!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I would start phasing out pup-play time , and start shifting that happy bond to something that YOU do with the dog .

You want the dog to be social in the proximity of other dogs . That is friendly/neutral - not aggressive , not shy , they are there and so what .


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

cross referencing threads http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-behavior/701410-low-pack-drive-3.html


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

*I can't believe how fast they grow*

Thanks to all of you lovely people I am having a blast with my pup. We have good days and hard days. So many things to learn. So much food on the counter and so many fast kitties. It is like solving a communication riddle, i am fumbling but he is patient with me and i with him. It is so interesting to see the dynamic unfold. 
Sorry for twisted pic. Almost 6 months old a loving, at times pain in the butt, with a brilliant mind and an amazing personality. I have much appreciation for this forum. <3


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