# Two puppies at same time???



## Zora (Apr 27, 2011)

I was wondering if anyone has or has had two puppis at the same time. We have a 13 week GSD and a 8 week old GSD. We purchased them at the same time while our hearts were broken after euthanizing our 5 yr GSD. The trainer at the puppy kindergarten class (only the 13 wk old is going right now) is pushing us to get rid of one of them. Says it is a very bad idea to have to young puppies at the same time...she sited bonding issues. I have also read that their could be aggressive issues aroun 18-30 mos of age. Also, they seem to turn play into dominance challenges everytime they play. I am worried that if they don't figure it out soon my 2 year old could be near when they decide to challenge. (we so have a trainer coming in a couple days to asses this. any input would be great. Have you had two, how did they get along, were their problems as they grew, did they still bond to people? (they are male 8wks old and female 13 wks old)


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## VomBlack (May 23, 2009)

Oh wow, I can't imagine trying to raise two puppies at once, just one is a ton of work on its own.  Just my $0.02, i'd prefer to have plenty of time to bond with and socialize my puppy and i'd be afraid that i'd be spreading myself too think trying to do it properly with two.


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## 1sttimeforgsd (Jul 29, 2010)

Hello and Welcome, there are lots of knowledgeable people on here that can give you good advice. 

I do remember reading on one of the threads that you would need to train the puppies seperately one on one away from the other, because they would be too busy concentrating on each other instead of on you.

Good luck!


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## wilbanks17 (Feb 11, 2011)

Welcome Aboard! We love pictures here by the way!


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Nope. I would never do it unless I planned on raising them completely separated. We had 2 litter mates for a time when we were deciding which one to keep...and it was nice for about 2 weeks and then it turned into Puppy UFC. Not play fighting...serious squabbling for hierarchy. Plus they will generally bond more with each other than the family and prefer their dog companions unless you put in enough time with each individually to prevent it. 

Check out this article. I think it highlights most of the pitfalls of having 2 pups beyond the extra expense and time. 

Leerburg | Raising 2 pups at one time in a Family Setting


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

as household pets very difficult , more than twice the work. 
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

A lot of work, but at least not same gender littermates.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

I agree with your trainer. Much better for the puppy that is raised and doted on as a single puppy then with 2. 

Most of the best breeders won't even sell 2 puppies to the same person because of how badly it usually turns out. Way too hard and too much work for the humans. And it's the puppies that don't end up with all the time and love they would have otherwise had.

Great news is that responsible breeders have no problem with taking a puppy back. So your 8 week old can be back with it's first home and ready to meet it's new family in no time!

More helpful info: 

http://www.caninedevelopment.com/Sibling.htm

http://buddyschance.typepad.com/positive_dog_training_blo/2007/04/adopting_litter.html

http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/livingwlittermates.html

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/lifestyles/family/dogtalk/s_483918.html


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Did you get them from the same breeder? I would have one go back to the breeder, and work with one only. When your chosen one is two or three, then think about adding on to your family...by then you'll know what you want, and won't have issues with them growing old together, or challenging each other.


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## Zora (Apr 27, 2011)

Thanks everyone for your thoughts. We have had most of these concerns as well. I did in fact contact the breeder and they said they would prefer we try to find a home with a family or friend before they get involved. They said that clients think the worst of a puppy that has been returned! Ok, I could see that but...he is only 8 weeks old, why would anyone need to know he was returned. We told them that we thought we might have gotten in over our head with two puppies and a toddler in the house!!! We were only going to get one and couldn't decided. Never thought to get 2 until the breeder suggested it!! OUCH!!! This is a reputable breeder too and the puppies were NOT inexpensive! The real downer is the longer we have them both the harder it will be to get rid of one (the younger one).


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I would argue the reputable breeder part. Automatically became "un" with that 2 puppy suggestion. And now not taking the puppy back? They should take the puppy back AND be giving you your money back. Ridiculous.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

No reputable breeder will push two together, and 8 weeks is young, many breeders won't even let them go til after this age. I think your breeder wanted to be done with the pups and not concerned with placing them for success. Did you sign a contract concerning the breeders "rights" for re-homing if you decide not to keep one? If not, then the breeder isn't responsible and should be called out on their placing of this breed. GSD's shouldn't go to just any home, sorry but they need a home where the new owners understand the type dog they are...red flags raised.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

have to echo that this is NOT a reputable breeder. They would never have sold you two puppies and would absolutely positively NOT tell you they prefered not to get involved in the rehoming of one of them.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Personally, I'd never in a million years take two puppies at once especially littermates. However people have done it. What concerns me in this situation is having a 2 year old child as well. I can hardly imagine having one puppy and a toddler. Two puppies is more than twice the work as one! They need to bond and be trained and socialized _separately_.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Zora said:


> Thanks everyone for your thoughts. We have had most of these concerns as well. I did in fact contact the breeder and they said they would prefer we try to find a home with a family or friend before they get involved. They said that clients think the worst of a puppy that has been returned! Ok, I could see that but...he is only 8 weeks old, why would anyone need to know he was returned. We told them that we thought we might have gotten in over our head with two puppies and a toddler in the house!!! We were only going to get one and couldn't decided. Never thought to get 2 until the breeder suggested it!! OUCH!!! This is a reputable breeder too and the puppies were NOT inexpensive! The real downer is the longer we have them both the harder it will be to get rid of one (the younger one).


Are you kidding me --- Sounds like laziness . They saw you coming and sold you two dogs to make it easier for themselves. I never sell two pups to a single party. I tell them thanks - see me in a year or two. They said that clients think the worst of a puppy that has been returned -- what ???? The breeder suggested it ??? what ??? 
I can't believe it.
Not good, on so many levels. So if you were to find a home for the one pup who would the people who have bought that pup contact for support or advice , problem solving. What if the dog is dysplastic , who then is responsible for the guarantee -- ? So the breeder is essentially washing their hands of the dog. If the dog is only 8 weeks you could not have had him more than a week? Somebody buying the pup from you has every right to be suspicious. What is wrong with the dog? Is he your dog , is he stolen , do you "curbside" pups , buy for resale - all these questions would be reasonable -- plus you have to pay for advertising . This is about the worst I have heard. 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

just thought is there not some provision for "Buyers Remorse" 
Did you pay cash? Can you do a stop order on a cheque. Sorry reaching .

Carmen


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## blehmannwa (Jan 11, 2011)

Minority report..I got two female GSD x from a shelter 14 years ago. They are littermates. We made sure to give them individual attention and they thrived and are lovely companions with distinct personalities.


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## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

We raised Nyxie and Diego together - he is 2 months older than her. I worked with Nyxie and my husband spent time with Diego. Nyxie is bonded to me and not to Diego. Just have to get them out and work with them away from each other.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Zora, where are you located? that would help us a great deal in helping you. Obviously the breeder you got these pups from is not going to be of any help. If you let us know your general area we have several people on the board who can direct you to anyone who may be able to help you out. As for deciding which pup to rehome, i would personally suggest the 8 week old as you dont have that one in classes yet and you're obviously bonding to the older pup in those classes. I have two young kids myself and my youngest dog is turning a year old on May 5th. I cant imagine raising two pups at once. One pup at a time is plenty for anyone!


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## SunKissedRider (Apr 25, 2011)

Zora, I'm also curious where you are located, especially if you are looking at rehoming one of the pups. We're currently on the hunt to adopt a GSD puppy, so if you aren't too far from MI....


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## WarrantsWifey (Dec 18, 2010)

I have a feeling the breeder doesn't want to refund you the money for the returned pup and hoping if you rehome the pup yourself, they can keep the cash.... But thats the little devil sitting on my shoulder. 

In our breeders contract, we are NOT allowed to rehome Killian EVER, we MUST return him to the breeder via contract. She is really strict on that.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I would not call a breeder reputable who recommends someone to take two young puppies at once, and then doesn't want to take one back when the buyer realizes it was a bad idea.
It can work to raise two puppies at once but it is difficult to do it correctly so I wouldn't recommend it. If you decide you want to keep them both, it is important to give each puppy a lot of individual attention and training away from the other puppy, to avoid them bonding with each other rather than the humans in the house and to avoid them becoming reliant on each other which can cause many problems in the future if you ever wanted ot needed to take them anywhere separately.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Don't forget that the OP also has a two year old child . Two young pups feed off each other and I can see the baby in the middle of some "wild" pup behaviour , being ganged up on . 
Carmen


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

carmspack said:


> Don't forget that the OP also has a two year old child . Two young pups feed off each other and I can see the baby in the middle of some "wild" pup behaviour , being ganged up on .
> Carmen


 
yeah see that wouldnt be good either. Shasta and Riley get playing sometimes and the kids get knocked over and theres yelling and crying and dogs who look very much like they want to slink away and crawl under a rock for a little bit because they know they goofed. lol


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

having 2 pups is tough. how do you train, socialize and bond with
2 pups. i think the pups would rather listen to each other
rather than their human.

it's tough having 2 pups but i think it can be done. i wouldn't do
it but it can be done.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I also would argue "reputable" breeder no reputable breeder would refuse return of especially an 8 week old puppy..This so called breeder should have never suggested you take two in the first place, sounds like hey what do they care? They got there money and got rid of two puppies at the same time

I agree posting your general location (state), may help in placing one of them.


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

I would think twice about having two so close in age as well. I adopted to 16 month old GSD's in '09-they are 3.5 months apart and can still be a handful at 3 years!! Giving them the individual attention the need is very difficult because they are extremely bonded to each other. Doing everything in doubles is also hard. 

I can say that my love for them is outta this world and I would never have it any other way now, but it has been a hard road to get here.


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## EJQ (May 13, 2003)

Well, I have to admit that even though this is something that I personally would not mind doing, I would never advice someone to take on such a task. There are just too many inherent difficulties for the novice or inexperienced dog owner. Lots of work that would require lots of time and lots of patience.


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## Davey Benson (Nov 10, 2010)

I have two syblings, a male and female. However they are not dogs, they are great pyrenees. 

I couldn't imagine trying to raise and train two GSD litermates and a human puppy at the same time. I'm single and self employed work from home, I'm here all the time with my attention on the dogs nearly all the time. I can't imagine trying to care for two littermate puppy GSD's on anything less. Sounds to me like the breeder is a BYB with dollar signs on the mind. Too bad. Sounds like you might need to give one of the three puppies up for adoption. I wish you luck.


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## bruiser (Feb 14, 2011)

I can't imagine raising 2 pups at the same time...Bruiser is still a handful at 5 mos. I also have an 9 yr. black lab and when they start playing the house shakes and giving them each individual time can sometimes be a challenge. I would never try 2 pups at the same time. It doesn't sound like a good breeder.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

It is definitly not a good idea to have 2 puppies at one time.

I raised 2 Lab/Chow/Rott/Border Collie mixes. They were siblings, a male and a female, I was out of school and I only worked a couple of hours a week so I had a ton of time to spend with them. 

It was EXTREMELY difficult. It was the hardest thing ever, it was twice the bites, twice the potty accidents, twice the effort, twice the amount of money, twice the training. When one was sleeping the other one was ready to play. When one was calm and relaxed the other one was running around. Every 20 minutes one of them had to go out to potty. One puppy caught on to tricks and training fast while the other one was slower and required more time and more training.

They were very closely bonded to each other, I didn't exist while they were together. 

I think it was unfair to split my time between them, they both deserved to have me all to themselves while they were puppies and they had to share me. 

I would never get 2 puppies at the same time again. 

When they get older you will have 2 seniors at the same time and that can be very expensive not to mention that they could pass away within months of each other and that will cause you twice the heartbreak.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Rerun said:


> have to echo that this is NOT a reputable breeder. They would never have sold you two puppies and would absolutely positively NOT tell you they prefered not to get involved in the rehoming of one of them.


:thumbup: Why it's SO important for us to do all we can on the front end to have a breeder who is helpful and responsible and thinks first of their puppies....

GOOD LUCK! and really try to get the younger pup into a home that it can have the time and attention we can give to ONE puppy!


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

Having two puppies at once can be done, but it takes an enormous amount of time and patience. The only way my husband and I were able to do it was because we are both home all day long and I could devote all my time to raising and training them since I don't work (and we don't have kids!). That being said, it was still an awfully stressful time for me, and if I ever consider two puppies at once again, my husband has promised to put his foot down and overrule me!

It sounds to me like you have already realized that two is a bit much for you with your family responsibilities. It is a shame that the breeder doesn't want to help you find a new home for the 8 week old. I hope that people can help you find a rescue to work with, or give you tips on how to screen for potential new owners. Good luck, and I'm sorry that this didn't work out for you!


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

FYI - The OP hasn't commented since the 1st page.


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## robertm (Apr 20, 2011)

I have a male and a female from the same litter. I knew I wanted two and I knew it was defying conventional wisdom but I decided to take it on anyway.

I wouldn't recommend it but I would definitely do it again. I found that some of their training can be done at the same time. In fact, it creates a little competitive spirit between them to pay attention and get it right because it is no fun watching your sibling get praised and treated. The really unnatural things like leash training and staying on command you definitely have to do separate and then together.

Thinking outside the box really helps. My command to come is more of a grunt than a word. It got their attention very early on and they learned to come together. Due to the size of our property they also learned to come to a whistle.


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## infinite loop (Dec 14, 2010)

i'm going to go against the grain and say it's fine. i raised two puppies last summer and it went well. i actually preferred it that way because the annoying aspects of puppy ownership (i.e. house training) was conducted in one shot. 

My puppies were a packaged deal, so although there were two of them, any effort on my end was only made once. For example, when one would wake up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom, I made them both have to go out to do their business, then come back in together. 

It wasn't easy, but it wasn't earth shatteringly difficult either. I would advise you to try to get through it. Things get substantially easier at the 3-4 month mark.

edit: for full disclosure, my dogs were two different breeds, of different gender, and approximately 6 weeks apart in age.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Did you also have a 2 year old child at the time?


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## Zora (Apr 27, 2011)

Thanks again everyone who has commented! I guess I should have given more detail of our living situation so some people wouldn't make assumptions. I am home 19 hours a day and my husband works 3rd and is home all afternoon/evening. (so we have ample time we _could_ divide between the dogs, especially if one of us trains/focuses on one dog and still have lots of time for our son, who would be involved with the dogs as well). I agree with many of you that the breeder saw us coming!!!! They wanted to sell Zora (13 weeks old) because she was the last of her litter, 10 weeks old, and they had several more litters coming up. They also wanted to sell Hero (8wks 5wks at the time we baught) because he has a long coat and I guess is not as desirable as standard??? btw, these were not cheap dogs!!! So yup....not as "repitable" as they seem I guess!!! Which is a shame, they are a very large breeder. We have a trainer coming into our home on Friday so we can get her opinion on how to possibly make it work or if she (like so many) feel it is a bad idea and make our final decision from there. 

Oh, we live in Michigan...I know someone asked where we were.

And..we do have a contract with the breeder that clearly states that should for any reason in the course of the dogs life we need to get rid of it they get the option of taking it back. Which is why I figured they would take Hero without hesitation. Don't know why you put that in the contract if you obvioulsy don't feel that way!!

Thanks again for the comments...I have been sharing them with my husband so he can have a good idea what we would be up against should we continue to take this on!!


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Sounds like you guys are going at this with an open mind. I hope you'll stay and update us on the pups no matter what you decide is best for your family and for the dogs. We have quite a few members in your area.


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## Virginia (Oct 2, 2008)

Wow, another one from MI. Zora - one of the posters located in MI is also looking for a puppy. Her name on this forum is SunKissedRider, I think she posted on the second page somewhere? This could be an option for you to look into if you are going to rehome the 8 week old puppy - she sounds like she could provide a very nice active home for the puppy. You may want to PM her to get to know her better and see if that's a feasible option.

If you do decide to rehome, please take some time to check references, do a home visit if possible, have some kind of stipulation in writing for what happens to the pup if the new owner is unable to keep him, and make sure you know where your puppy is going!

Good luck!


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## stacey_eight (Sep 20, 2010)

Hi Zora! You've gotten some great advice with regards to raising two puppies. I have a toddler and brought home my puppy when she (my daughter) was 13 months old. It took a TON of work making sure they both got the needed attention. I am an at-home mom and my day was FILLED with playpens and ex-pens and keeping everyone safe and making sure everyone was getting needs met. Now that he's a *big* puppy (10 months) and she's 20 months, I have to be careful of my daughters physical being. He is kind and gentle with her, but who's to say the doorbell won't ring and he'd knock her down getting to it, or run past her on a staircase or multiple situations. Having two active large puppies would be too much worry and work for me personally. Can you handle 2 playful, active, occasionally rough 60-80 pound puppies around your child? Only you can answer that! Best of luck!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Just out of curiosity, which breeder are the dogs from? Could you PM me? I live in Grand Rapids too, SE side (Alger Heights).


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Expensive and large does NOT equal reputable. Don't confuse them!


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

IMO it would be best for everyone involved (your family and the puppies), if you took your trainer's advise and rehomed one of the puppies. "Littermate Syndrome" has been a special interest of mine over the years. IME it is rare for both puppies to ever reach their full potential when they are raised together, littermates or just close in age puppies. It is hard even for experienced trainers to properly raise littermates or close in age puppies without one or both showing some signs of Littermate Syndrome. Some breeds are easier to raise multiple of than others, since some breeds tend to be naturally outgoing and happy go lucky. GSDs are certainly not among the easier breeds though and they really need a lot of early socialization and training. Shame on the breeder for pushing you to take two in the first place.

There are ways that raising littermates or close in age puppies can be done properly but it is usually still not ideal. The puppies must spend more time apart than they spend together - they should be crated separately in separate parts of the house, walked separately, socialized separately, taken to separate training classes and each have lots of one on one time with the family. It is ok to allow them to occasionally go for walks together or outings but more often then not, they should do so separately. They should have limited play and "hanging out" time together for the first 8-12 months. The best case scenario for this is to have two people who are equally interested in raising puppies each take responsibility for the care, training and socialization of one of the puppies. Say a husband and wife - Husband works with, socializes and bonds with Puppy 1 and Wife with Puppy 2. Otherwise, it is a lot for one person to undertake and in almost all cases, one or both puppies end up getting only half the training and socialization that they would have as an only puppy.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

My guess, they are NOT reputable for not wanting to be in the decision on rehoming. Did you want a refund of your purchase price? Very possible that money is already spent -- sure spent on the dogs, but my guess is they would be happy to take the pup and not give you anything in return. If you want your money back, however, that is probably the issue.

I think you should probably get at least most of your money back. Sorry, but she encouraged two pups at once. that was a mistake on her part, especially since you have a toddler. 

As for two at once (I have no toddlers), I do not find it that difficult, and have never had an issue with the dogs bonding more with each other than me. But I am single and live alone. That might make a difference. I do not generally keep young puppies apart, I separate usually between 10 and 15 months old. I do training separately. 

One problem though is that when they get old, they both are old at the same time -- increased vet bills. When one dies, you may very well lose both of them close together. That is hard.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I had heard of problems of raising littermates, or two pups close in age, or having two dogs of the same sex, close in age etc, but I had never heard of "littermate syndrome." So I googled it and came up with an article on the dog whisperer site. 

I literally laughed out loud when I came to the part about the ears not coming up. Something ELSE is going on, there folks. I have littermates out of four litters and every single set of ears went up.

Not all littermates have the same internal hierarchy within them. Not all litters do. You do not get six middle of the road puppies, one dominant puppy, one shy omega pup in each litter. In fact at seven weeks when temperament testing is supposed to get the best results according to some. A pup might be totally dominated by his sibling and five mintutes later be on the other end. 

But temperament tests do show us which pups are laid back, which are more sensitive to noise or to pain, which are more independent. If you pick the Alpha pup and the Omega pup in a litter -- the most dominant/outgoing and the most submissive/shy, you will see one pup being more outgoing and the other more reticent. Jenna/Babs -- Jenna being outgoing but truly outgoing and not fearful, Babsy more aloof and submissive, but not fearful. Both are perfectly fine in crowds, around other dogs, etc. 

None of these littermates gets their power from being together. I take them with me separately without any trouble at all and always have. They are not unstable around other people or dogs, though living with just me, they are not like golden retrievers or labs either. Most of them will not run up to you and lick your whole face trying to get pets. NONE of them pay more attention to the dogs than me. 

My siblings have been in dog shows, grooming salons, training classes, pet stores, and vet clinics. 

But the whole scenario might be different because I hold all the resources. I have the pets and the praise, I have the food bin and the water bucket, I decide who goes out and when, I am the one who trains them and takes them with me. So that they are all keyed to me when I am there is not really surprising. Good things are going to happen. Me, Me, Me too, Me next!!!! 

I think some bitches are more prone to fight than others, and not only with littermates. Heidi and Tori will fight given the Opportunity, but Milla and Ninja probably not. Ninja will fight with Heidi at any opportunity. Milla is not interested in fighting. Heidi and Jenna = fine. Heidi and Babs is a maybe. 

I think this is more a hierarchy and how the dog's see it than being raised together close in age. Heidi and Babs are a year apart Babs the elder, Heidi the more dominant, so they will clash while Jenna being more dominant than her litter mate Babs or the younger Heidi will not. They do not have problems with any dogs outside the pack. 

I think a breeder might pick a more alpha pup and a more omega pup when sending them out together to avoid issues. If they are both beta pups -- pups that are not good leaders but rather wannabe leaders, then there will be trouble. 

Unfortunately, most breeders who sell two pups at once are not bothering to match pups to owners or match pups to each other, they are just seeing double on the dollar signs.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Zora said:


> They wanted to sell Zora (13 weeks old) because she was the last of her litter, 10 weeks old, and they had several more litters coming up. They also wanted to sell Hero (8wks 5wks at the time we baught) because he has a long coat and I guess is not as desirable as standard???


You didn't bring the puppy home at 5 weeks, did you? If you did, it's actually a really good thing you had another puppy because at least Hero had some of the types of interaction he would have gotten with his littermates between 5-8 weeks old. 5-8 weeks is a critical period of socialization for puppies and it is very important not to separate pups from the mother and littermates too early to avoid future problems.

If you do decide to continue with the two pups, I highly recommend you check these sites out (links below) on socialization as with a pair of puppies and also especially with a puppy taken from the litter too early, the socialization is very important.

Also here is a good article on raising two puppies at once: Living with Littermates


Socialization Links:

How to socialize

Socialization

http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/puppy socialization.pdf

The Critical Period


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## sportsman1539 (Jan 22, 2011)

Ill give you my experience so far... My mother and I both got a female pup from the same litter. When I first got my pup, I had my own place(renting) and had no plans of moving out but I had something come up to where I needed a place and a place I knew I could go was my mothers. So here we are raising two pups at the same time. They were separated for about two months to where I and my mother were able to begin training our pups separately. When they first met each other, they got into a couple of fights. But that changed quickly. Now they really get along great with the occassional fussing at each other when one is tired of playing and the other still wants to play. Trust me, Im still worried about what could happen in the future when they become adults. I think i may have gotten a little lucky because these pups have totally different personalities. I will say having my mother's pup around has had its benefits though. The landshark stage that my pup was in when i first moved in immediately came to a screaching hault. The biting pretty much stopped altogether. 
One thing we have been sure to do is to keep them separate when we are not home. We feed them separately, my pup sleeps on the floor in my room and my mother's pup sleeps in her crate in the laundry room. When we are home, we do let them play alot though but when I choose to join in, the focus of both pups usually comes in on me. I would say they are together for most of the time from about 5 in the evening till 10 at night. They go on trips separately and they are trained separately. 

So far its been alot easier than I thought it would be but they were not raised from scratch together. Both had some basic training down before they were brought together which made things pretty smooth. But like i said, I am still worried about what the future will hold with these two but so far I feel pretty good about it.


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## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

Oh boy. Two puppies at the same time and a 2 yr old toddler. You have your hands full, you have my sympathy! 
There is no way I can do that, I also have a 2 yr old and a 16 week old puppy. I remember many many nights when we're still potty training the pup. 
I suggest giving the younger puppy up for adoption. I also want to know who this breeder is.


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## Zora (Apr 27, 2011)

We had a dog trainer come out to the house today to evaluate our pups interactions. They seem to always get growly and I interpreted that as some aggression on Hero's part, as he is the one who always ups tha anti. I was right!! She believes they are trying to establishing hierarchy. She said Zora has a great temperment and does give him calming signals (sometimes he listens). She cannot tell for sure if Hero is a little insecure or if he just thinks he is the boss... On her advice we are giving the pups two weeks to try to work it out. If Hero's attitude toward Zora gets much better (he is very respectful of older dog) then we will be keeping him (unless we become overwhelmed with it all, only been a week but not overwhelming yet). If not, or if Zora starts to avoid him, then we will sell him (he will be 10 weeks old then). She also knows of the breeder and said that they have always been reputable, though she wonders why they suggested two pups! After reading peoples comments, I am still on the fence about that one!!

Just wanted give an update. They will both be in puppy and obedience classes as well (Hero when he gets another vaccine). Zora started 2 weeks ago and it has been great!!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

growling at this stage is part of play fighting that they do. They may work out a hierarchy of sorts. You have an older dog two? Well three is more of a pack. But I would not get too bent on dominance and aggressiveness. Right now you have puppies playing and it can look pretty wicked at times.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Who was the trainer? There are a lot of quacks in the area. I've found about three times as many crappy ones as half decent ones, unfortunately. I know quite a bit about the breeder, a lot of "history" there. I think I sent you a rec? Jeanne Thomas. She can come out to your house even and her prices are extremely reasonable.

I would say if you are open to selling one, sell it sooner rather than later. I wouldn't wait around because honestly, you'd have to wait until the dogs are 2 or so. I don't know who this trainer is but you can't accurately assess a temperament and serious issues in dogs this young who are really only playing. Once they start to hit maturity, THAT is when you will see if there are going to be any real problems, and by then you have dogs that are 16-24 months old or so.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Personally I would not recommend using a trainer who talks about "dominance" with a puppy that young or interpreting growling between puppies as issues establishing hierarchy at 8 weeks old.
If Hero was separated from his litter too early, he may have issues with interacting with other dogs but this has nothing to do with dominance, rather it may be due to missing important socialization stages and not knowing how to properly interact or interpret social cues.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Or it can be simply PLAYING. I have seen puppies in litters growling and playing -- that is pretty much normal. They do not nose a ball back and forth to each other. No, chase each other, they jump on top of each other and bite each other's ears and tail and push each other down. They will tug on a rope, go for the same toy. That is all normal playing for 8-13 week old puppies. 

I agree that real problems between dogs are going to hit between the time they reach sexual maturity and real maturity -- can be ten or twelve months, can be all the way up to 2 years. But I would worry more about it if they were of the same sex. With opposite sexes, even close in age, you have a better chance at not having any issues. 

If you continue to train both puppies, separate classes for each, I do not see it as being a major issue.


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## wolfspirit (Dec 10, 2009)

Chicagocanine said:


> Personally I would not recommend using a trainer who talks about "dominance" with a puppy that young or interpreting growling between puppies as issues establishing hierarchy at 8 weeks old.
> If Hero was separated from his litter too early, he may have issues with interacting with other dogs but this has nothing to do with dominance, rather it may be due to missing important socialization stages and not knowing how to properly interact or interpret social cues.


I would second this. Also wouldn't be impressed with a trainer who thinks a breeder selling a pup at 5 weeks old is reputable?


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## Zora (Apr 27, 2011)

Let me say again... we DID NOT get the puppy at 5 weeks old. He was 7 weeks 2 days old when we braught him home. (not sure why the 5 wk thing keeps coming up). The trainer said Hero does not give "clear" signals, where as Zora will give submissive and "calming" signals to Hero. An example of what is happening: Pups are playing and wrestling around. Zora tries to get the upper hand, Hero doesn't like it and his growls deepen, lips come back, mouth snaps, and he goes after Zora. Sometimes Zora turns away and he keeps after her and sometimes she continues with the rough play? fight? Hero has been respectful with the established dog, just now trying to push it more until she nips at him. Does that sound like normal puppy behavior?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Zora said:


> Let me say again... we DID NOT get the puppy at 5 weeks old. He was 7 weeks 2 days old when we braught him home. (not sure why the 5 wk thing keeps coming up).


This is why:



Zora said:


> They also wanted to sell Hero (8wks 5wks at the time we baught)



It was a little hard to understand.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The puppy should not need to be respectful with the established dog. If the established dog gives him a hard time, you might want to separate him. (I am guessing this is an adult dog?) 

Puppies generally have a "puppy license" until they are between four and five months old. Adult dogs pretty much let the do ANYTHING up to that point, chew on ears, tails, etc. It sometimes does take a resident dog a few days to get used to the fur ball. But I would not expect an eight week old pup to be respectful of an established dog. 

I think it is far too early to guess whether or not there will be issues between any of your dogs. If this is something that you are seriously concerned about, maybe rehoming the younger pup is your best bet. 

I think your trainer has read a book or a section about dog training and has enough knowledge and buzz words to be dangerous. He/she is in a win-win situation. she told you to rehome one pup, and now she is telling you that there are not clear signals from the younger puppy. If you rehome the puppy you will never know if the advise was good or bad. If you do not, if you have problems, well she warned you, and if you don't, well, that will be because she did such a great job helping you train them and work on their possible issues before they get bad.

I could be totally wrong about that though. But many trainers do not have ANY idea how puppies play together who live together in a litter.

With two puppies at once, you do need to be dedicated to training and socializing them individually. But if you are going to be constantly worried about calming signals, pack order, dominance, submissiveness, then again maybe rehoming is the best idea.

If one of your puppies IS significantly more outgoing, more persistant, more rough in playing, you may actually have less overall problems -- the two puppies will accept their positions on the totem pole. Everyone will be happy. Pups close in age (usually the same sex) who are also similar in power will be the ones that will be unclear about where each should land and petting one first or giving one a treat first might make sparks fly. Where there is no question, they usually are not that worried about our clumsy adherence to the order they have chosen.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

When I moved down here from MD I brought three adult GSDs with me.:gsdbeggin:

A friend gave me Ringer who I knew I was getting before moving down here ... lol I knew I was getting him even before he was born. 

Within a couple weeks of bringing Ringer home, another friend who got his sister asked me to pick her up and he'd be down in a couple days to get her ... I never heard from him again. :wild: Ergo, I ended up with two puppies the same age from the same litter. 

During this same month Ringer & Honey's 5 year old father :gsdhead: needed a home so I ended up with JR too!!!

A few months later another friend brought me Kelly :gsdsit: as a house warming gift ... three puppies within six months age of each other. 

I went from 3 GSDs to 7 ... 4 adults and 3 puppies in a matter of a few short weeks!!!

*I DID NOT* have a toddler to put into the mix which IMHO would be a major concern.

Anyway, :thumbup: in addition to spending time with the dogs of all ages, I also spent a lot of time with each pup individually ... separate training classes on different days ... separate trips around town for socialization ... separate play times ... in other words I gave each pup a lot of individual attention. And yes, the pups also spent a lot of time together with me and the other Hooligans. It was a lot of work but well worth it ... they were a great bunch of dogs!!!

I was lucky and didn't have any problems with any of the three puppies. :toasting: They grew into confident adults who had nice temperaments, got along with people and other dogs, etc. 

:rose: All was happiness, sunshine & flowers *UNTIL* ...

They hit their senior years. :hammer: Anyone with a senior can tell you they can be expensive during this time of their lives with vet bills for various old age problems. Ringer had massive vet bills, except for physical therapy Honey's weren't too bad, and Kelly had some pretty heafty ones. 

*:teary: But* the hardest part of getting two or more puppies the same age was the heart ache I went thru when all three died within 9 months of each other ... Ringer died a month before his 13th birthday, Kel was 12 years 7 months, and Honey was 13 years 9 months. To be honest I still haven't gotten over their loss.

Here's a link to their album if you'd like to see their pictures:
PictureTrail: Online Photo Sharing, Social Network, Image Hosting, Online Photo Albums


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## Zora (Apr 27, 2011)

Thanks Emoore. I honestly couldn't figure out where the 5 week thing was coming from. We purchased him at 5 weeks old and picked him up at 7 weeks. I have NEVER seen two puppies go after eachother the way they do. I am familiar with rough play between dogs, but this tends to look like fighting I have seen between our previous GSD and GSD mix we still have. Our previous GSD didn't show signs of dominance aggression until he was about 18- 24 mos, but it continued throughout his life, even when our resident dog would submit. She never challenged him, but he would just randomly go after her. It is a situation we would rather not get into again. Granted with the pups it only escalates when playing, otherwise they get along great.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

selzer said:


> If one of your puppies IS significantly more outgoing, more persistant, more rough in playing, you may actually have less overall problems -- the two puppies will accept their positions on the totem pole. Everyone will be happy.


 Actually, this is one of the biggest aspects of Littermate Syndrome. When you raise littermates or two close in age puppies, you often end up with adult dogs who are very opposites ends of an extreme. One is overly bold and the other, overly reserved. It is not uncommon for this to lead to aggression issues, where the reserved puppy becomes fear reactive and the bold puppy becomes the one who takes action against what is upsetting the other puppy. One has the job of alerting to people or other animals being a potential threat and the other has the job of scaring said threat away.This is not gender specific and goes on to some degree with the majority of littermate/close in age puppies raised together that I have known, especially of breeds which tend towards being guardy or reactive anyway. IMO and IME raising close in age puppies or littermates together doesn't allow for the same type of brain development that raising them separately would. It sets their brain up to allow for more primitive and dog oreiented behaviors, which tends to be where the behavioral issues come in with most dogs kept as pets.


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## WolfCrest (May 13, 2010)

I have two puppies at my house one is 4 months (Pit Mix who is my mom's) one is 3 months (Shepherd who is mine). We haven't had any issues. They each get their alone training time with their respective owners.


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## SuperNova (May 1, 2011)

I am doing the exact same thing now. I have a 11 week old male GSD and a 13 week old male GSD. They get along great, each get their alone time with us for training etc. They sleep seperate and pretty much do everything seperate except for play time with us and our adult dogs.
I don't see how raising 2 at a time would be an issue if you focus on a relationship with each one seperately.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

You won't see problems so much the during a young pups age, the problems arise at maturity....then you get the challenging for position. 
Even dogs a year apart can have issues, thats why many on the board recommend having the age gap at least 3 years apart.
A 3 or 4 month old duo isn't going to show problems, as it is all fun and games at that age.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I agree, you have to wait for the pups to reach sexual maturity. 

But, if you work with the dogs, regular training, you will build a bond with each of them, and for male/female and male/male you can probably avoid most problems, with just leadership. 

Females who are afflicted with the green monster, not so much. 

I have not experienced the littermate syndrome that has been mentioned. I have littermates from four different litters, and have just not seen this. Perhaps it is something more prevalent in some bloodlines than others.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Sue, do you have your dogs out together, or is it a crate/rotate? I don't mean your whole pack all out at once, but siblings playing together after maturity? 
Do most of your dogs get along with each other or are there some that hate each other?

For someone having just two pets, and not a breeder with kennels, crate/rotating would be a pain. I'd rather not deal with that if I just had the dogs as companions(not competing or breeding)


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Crate rotate for same sex dogs is likely, not so much for opposite. In fact most people can raise two males without crate-rotate. As for girls, they can be a pain. 

You are right though, I keep them together until they are between 10 and 14 months old, and then I separate them. But there is other things that they say about littermate syndrome, the dogs cannot be taken anywhere without their littermate -- never saw that, dogs have trouble with outside dogs -- never seen that either.

But then I do take them to separate training classes, that first year or so. That sounds like, sure everyone does, but in fact, everyone does not.


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## Texas_Eva (Apr 10, 2011)

You guys with multiple pups must have the patience of saints. Eva is a major attention hound and a full time job with overtime LOL.

Would love to get a male GSD but just couldn't do it with the space and all.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Personally I just wouldn't want to deal with having an intact male and intact female at the same time, that close in age (so both reaching sexual maturity around the same time). I guess if the OP speuters early, that's not a problem but if you're like me and don't consider it until physical maturity, that's several heat cycles to deal with. No thanks!


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

selzer said:


> I have not experienced the littermate syndrome that has been mentioned. I have littermates from four different litters, and have just not seen this. Perhaps it is something more prevalent in some bloodlines than others.


 It is not a bloodline or even a breed problem. I have seen it in a wide range of breeds and mixes. Hounds and many sporting dogs seem to have less behavior issues concerning being raised with littermates because they have less tendencies towards reactive behavior and dog to dog problems. Even so, it still isn't ideal for someone wanting them as pets to raise two puppies at once. 

Sue, your expectations of your dogs is quite different from that of a pet owner who just has a couple dogs as companions or that of people who are mainly interested in performance or working dogs. I don't doubt that you have not seen issues with your dogs but I suspect your situation is quite a bit different from that of the OP.

Almost every situation I know of where littermates were raised together, there have been some less than desirable behavioral side effects. It isn't always that the dogs can't be separated. Some of them fight. Many of them have the scared dog/bold dog dynamic going on. Some of them grow up and don't like their littermate any more. Many are very dog oriented. And the majority just don't get the sort of one on one socialization and early training that a single pup would get, which IMO involves it's own set of issues.


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