# Dumbbell Preferences?



## TheJakel (May 2, 2013)

When initially teaching and then continuing the retrieve an object, for working on at home is it better to have the traditional dumbbell? Or one that has jute/leather on the handle?

I don't want to encourage chewing on the handle but at the same time is a material on the handle better for their teeth when training?

Or just stick a traditional dumbbell to follow the train as fight and fight as you train mantra?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I just use a piece of PVC when training the initial hold, so it's sort of the opposite of a dumbbell covered in jute or leather since the PVC is slippery and more difficult to hold. Mine is simply the "foot" of one of my agility jumps.


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## Uniballer (Mar 12, 2002)

My club training director is using a hardwood dowel and clicker to shape the hold these days before the dog ever sees the dumbbell.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

Really depends on the dog and what you are working on. Did you start hold training? What do you use for hold training? What does your TD at the training club say?

Different tools for different purposes, I don't know that I would make a blanket statement like "use a jute for this and rubber hose for that" without seeing the dog's training and habits.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

ayoitzrimz said:


> Really depends on the dog and what you are working on. Did you start hold training? What do you use for hold training? What does your TD at the training club say?
> 
> Different tools for different purposes, I don't know that I would make a blanket statement like "use a jute for this and rubber hose for that" without seeing the dog's training and habits.


Big +1 to that.

Retrieve exercises are a lot more complicated than I realized a few months ago, and there are about a bazillion different pieces that you may want to focus on, depending on what your dog is showing you.

I would suggest starting with a traditional dumbbell and seeing how your dog does with that, and then from there you may choose to vary the material depending on whether you think there are aspects of the retrieve that could use more focused practice and polishing. But if your trainer is taking a different approach then perhaps that might be better/easier.

Who knows, you might have that one in a million dog who's just brilliant with retrieves from the get-go and never needs to be asked to work on anything other than the dumbbell.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Yes it depends on the method. I train a hold and a pickup with PVC before my dog gets a dumbbell in his mouth (want it to basically be perfect - or how *I* want it to be - before the dumbbell comes into the picture). Most people I see doing SchH have a wooden dowel and use it the same way. I actually do have one with a string on one end (so I can tug on the dowel and proof the hold).


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I've started my last two dogs with both PVC pipe and wooden dowels for the IPO reteieves, but used two different training methods. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## TheJakel (May 2, 2013)

We haven't personally started working on the hold or retrieve yet, but from talking to the TD and others theres been a pretty wide variety of materials being used from the jute, a synthetic dumbbell with ropes for tugging and of course the traditional dumbbell. 
From what I've seen is that it usually starts with a tug or high motivation toy. My dog does well with playing 2 ball and there are some tiring fetch session in the house with a rope toy but he hasn't been introduced to the dumbbell yet.

I guess I'll have to send a quick email to him first since none of my prior questions were specific me starting or my dog. The questions I had asked were just general. I was going to start and only do the basic clicker training to with schutzhund-training.com site and go from there and keep it low and slow. We haven't done any hold training yet. 

I was mainly asking so I know what to put on my Christmas list haha.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

I started with the dumbbell from the beginning, because neither of my dogs is a natural retriever and Pongu is particularly weak on retrieves if he's feeling any stress whatsoever (which is hopefully not something anybody with a Schutzhund dog has to deal with); he tends to drop the dumbbell immediately or won't even pick it up if he's anxious.

So for us one of the key things was to build an absolute metric crapton of value into the dumbbell. From the very beginning it was click + reward + super fun party time for him to touch that stupid dumbbell in any way at all (and then to hold it, and then to retrieve it, etc. etc.). If I'd started with a dowel, then I would have had to transfer value from the dowel to the dumbbell and it would have taken even longer to get anything remotely approximating a competition retrieve. Even now it's one of our weakest exercises and I doubt I'll be completely confident in it by spring.

But obviously that's an idiosyncratic problem that I have because my dog is a basket of crazy. If you had a different dog who did not have this problem then you probably wouldn't need to work as hard to make the dumbbell the most valuable object on Earth, and you might choose to focus on different issues such as planting an unpainted wooden dowel in the grass to encourage searching for the object after a bad throw, or a slippery PVC pipe to encourage a firm grip, etc.

Also for IPO I would imagine that you have to condition the dog to be able to carry a substantial weight, so that's probably another thing to train for.


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## TheJakel (May 2, 2013)

I would say he handles stress well its just building up his possession drive when I'm close to him and he's carrying around the tug after he wins it from the helper. He'll out early or on his own so on the field we're not using the out command any longer. Which is why when we get there I was curious about if that would affect his hold and also if any materials would make him have a chewy bite.

When we play tug at home he wins every time and there aren't any outs.

Bite like ayo said, I just emailed the TD


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Merciel said:


> So for us one of the key things was to build an absolute metric crapton of value into the dumbbell. From the very beginning it was click + reward + super fun party time for him to touch that stupid dumbbell in any way at all (and then to hold it, and then to retrieve it, etc. etc.). If I'd started with a dowel, then I would have had to transfer value from the dowel to the dumbbell and it would have taken even longer to get anything remotely approximating a competition retrieve. Even now it's one of our weakest exercises and I doubt I'll be completely confident in it by spring.


Like you say, it depends on the dog. The way I train retrieves very deliberately avoids placing ANY value on the dumbbell. I've seen people make the dumbbell valuable and those dogs ended up chewy, slower back than going out, and/or very vocal/leaky during retrieves. For me, the dumbbell (or any object I tell the dog to retrieve) is incidental, completely neutral. The dumbbell itself does not signal any reward or punishment. But, so far my dogs have been natural retrievers that enjoy retrieving and just need to understand what is required and not allowed with each of the formal elements of a retrieve.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

I am seriously envious of you there. 

We just did a bunch of practice retrieves this evening and oof I am not feeling excited about our progress right now. This was the best session we've had in a while, too -- Pongu did his retrieve from 40' away (which is nothing for a sane dog, but haaaa it has been an epic ordeal getting scaredypants to move that far away from the Magic Protective Person Aura) and didn't drop the dumbbell once.

BUT he's coming in massively crooked (anxiety) and he's pawing the air frantically to get me to take the dumbbell out of his mouth (more anxiety) and he's backing up a couple of steps after initially coming in close on the Fronts (even more anxiety!).

sweet jeebus I am so incredibly annoyed with the prospect of spending months upon months to fix all. these. things. In itty-bitty tiny increments, OF COURSE, because can't put too much pressure on the crazy dog! And there will be more things after these, OF COURSE, because that is how it goes.

Anyway the point of this story is (1) vent!; and (2) yeah so there are a bazillion parts in a competition retrieve and endless things that can go wrong with just the base exercise even before you start focusing on specific trial issues.


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## TheJakel (May 2, 2013)

Well godspeed Merciel lol
I don't think I'll have those problems. Grim is from what I'm reading a natural retreiever then I gues its up to the TD to say how much or little emphasis to place on the dumbbell like Liesje said. Still waiting on my email from my TD. Why doesn't everyone check their email every 5 minutes like me lol


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Like you say, it depends on the dog. The way I train retrieves very deliberately avoids placing ANY value on the dumbbell. I've seen people make the dumbbell valuable and those dogs ended up chewy, slower back than going out, and/or very vocal/leaky during retrieves. For me, the dumbbell (or any object I tell the dog to retrieve) is incidental, completely neutral. The dumbbell itself does not signal any reward or punishment. But, so far my dogs have been natural retrievers that enjoy retrieving and just need to understand what is required and not allowed with each of the formal elements of a retrieve.


 
Heidi was taught a play retrieve before we got her. She wants the dumbbell so bad she would leak, almost break her downstay when the other dog was doing it and would stand up when it was tossed. She also wouldn't come back. She would hall butt out and back but not stop at Kiersten. She just wanted to run around with it. She all cleaned up now. I have no idea what Kiersten did with her but I did see there dumbells yesterday and they were picture perfect. I know Heidi was not nearly as excited about it as I have seen before. 

OP- Personally I'm against the jute dumbells. From what I have seen, they encourage chewing. We generally teach it with the plastic training dumbells and/or wooded dowels. It is also trained in steps like everything else. First the hold, then the front and so on.


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## TheJakel (May 2, 2013)

mycobraracr said:


> OP- Personally I'm against the jute dumbells. From what I have seen, they encourage chewing. We generally teach it with the plastic training dumbells and/or wooded dowels. It is also trained in steps like everything else. First the hold, then the front and so on.


Thanks for the Input, I like all the insight from everyone 

But that was my fear is that Grim would chew it or try to. Also like you said how everything is trained in peices..helping reinforce to me that I'll need to take my time. Its interesting to see how every movement is broken down, i.e. the heel that we've been doing with placement and movement of the hand, and even nailing down the recal to get his head centered on my chest.

To refer to another thread on here I don't see how someone that hasn't done this before could obtain a BH with out help of someone experianced


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

What also helps the dog not chew is have them carry the #3...they have to grip it or lose it due to its weight.
I wouldn't have them jumping with it, but get use to retrieiving it on a flat. 
Some dogs naturally hold calm, others are chewy.


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## Uniballer (Mar 12, 2002)

onyx'girl said:


> What also helps the dog not chew is have them carry the #3...they have to grip it or lose it due to its weight.


On that same note, years ago a friend of ours made us an offset dumbbell on his lathe. One side was like the 650g dumbbell and the other side was heavy like the 2kg dumbbell. This really made the dog hold on tight.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I have used wooden dowels, PVC dowels and a plastic AKC type of dumbbell. Has depended on what I was doing and the dog I was working. The SchH dumbbell does not come into the picture until the dog is retrieving the plastic dumbbell. Now I am getting my dogs used to those poorly designed IPO1 (600gr) dumbbells.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Where in the new rules does it specify the rounded end dumbbell? I looked recently, and didn't see it, but maybe I have an older version downloaded of the rules? Pg 31 on this link has the specs: http://www.germanshepherddog.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/USCA-Rule-book-2013.1.pdf


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

It has to do with the height of the dowel off of the ground. Most clubs still use the old style DB, but I have noticed that some plus the big events are using the other ones. I figure I might as well have them used to both since they are different.


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