# Thuringian GSD lines- nervy but fast?



## wildo

I've made it no secret that when I eventually get another GSD, I want it to be a fast dog. I keep hearing how a fast dog could lack balance, which I didn't agree with. Certainly a "balanced" dog could _also _happen to be fast. I don't see why not. 

Recently, carmspack mentioned here that the issue is that speed comes from the Thuringian (one of the four founding breeds [breeds? types?]) lines, and that these lines tend to bring with them nerve issues and light bones (not heavy, big bones).

Sounds certainly interesting enough for a discussion thread!!



So, how would we look at a pedigree and see if there is Thuringian lineage in there?
Can we definitively tie such lineage to nerve issues and light bones?
Are light bones really a big deal in the grand scheme of things?
Can we definitively tie such lineage to fast dogs?
Am I asking the right questions? haha...
Looking forward to this discussion!!


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## Liesje

My question is, if this is true, then why can there be large differences among littermates? For example, Nikon is good at agility (well as good as I can handle but in the right hands he'd be way better) and was easy for me, a novice handler, to train yet I know someone who is a very accomplished agility trainer/handler (several CATCH and MACH dogs, most non-traditional agility breeds) who has struggled training Nikon's littermate. Some of what she describes is almost the exact opposite of how Nikon works in agility (her dog struggled for a long time with jumping technique and didn't seem to care, while Nikon was a quick study with good technique and loves jumping, lots of "obstacle drive"). So if a litter is all from the same lines can we really attribute the speed of one dog to the founders of the breed, but not the other dogs from the same lines or even the exact same litter? I see the same thing in flyball (where you get to see lots of littermates because of how the dogs are bred and who owns them) and there is a lot of variation in speed among littermates.

As far as bone, I can't comment on where it comes from (I'll defer to carmspack and doc and cliff, et al for that) but I do agree that you don't want heavy or excess bone. A GSD can have good bone that is not in excess. A fast dog may be lighter boned than say, some of the WGSL counterparts but that doesn't mean a fast dog has to look brittle or frail.

I find that in agility and flyball, speed comes from the desire to do the work itself. In flyball, a dog that is too obsessed with tennis balls will run down fast but then probably execute a lackluster turn and then double stride between jumps on the way back. Likewise a dog that is really reward or handler focused will run down OK and probably turn really well and come back really fast, sometimes twice as fast on the way back. A really fast dog tends to be a dog that has nothing "extra" (not heavy boned, not too long, certainly not fat) and also find the activity itself rewarding so there is speed and power throughout the exercise. In Pan's case, he's a pretty high energy and lower threshold dog but the last thing I'd call him is nervy. I mean in some cases he's stable almost to a fault (in protection it's hard to get real aggression from him because nothing unsettles him, yet).

These are just my thoughts as someone active in these sports with different types of GSDs (and different breeds). The pedigree stuff I can't really comment on. I find that especially in flyball, people approach it a lot like many departments pick police dogs....they actually don't really care about pedigree. We test the dog and if it shows potential, then we train it. If not, I don't really care what the pedigree says it *should* be if it's just not.


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## wildo

Lies, I have to admit- you're the only person that I know in person with "fast" dogs. I mean come on- 3.9sec flyball runs??  [Thinks hard to see if that would be offensive to any of his friends. No... I don't think so... Well, no offense intended to you, my local friends! ] I was going to PM you to see if we could dissect one of your dog's pedigrees for a learning experience, but I'm not sure that's fair or appropriate. I suspect Carmen can provider her own examples based on past experience.

Also- I have to admit that what you've brought up, Lies, about the sheer _desire_ to do to work and be rewarded by the work is something I haven't considered. I figured a fast dog is fast because of their conformation and drive alone. Take me as an example. My conformation (read: my fat [bottom]) will never be a fast sprinter. I'm built like the dwarf from the Lord of the Rings... -short, fat, and well muscled! haha! But someone with a lot of leg, tall, slender, toned, and driven to success- that person will almost certainly be a much faster runner than me. So conformation must have a part for sure. 

I attributed a great croup to speed. A long, properly angled croup allows the dog to get their rear feet under their body, stretched forward for range of motion, and give them the ability to power forward pushing their rear legs backwards with lots of range of motion. The long croup means that the muscles themselves are longer providing more strength and more flexibility. I wonder if the Thuringian dogs have an impact on rear conformation.


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## Liesje

I think you also need to take into account what I said in the other thread, about how the dog approaches work. Not just the drive but how the dog thinks. I don't really know of a good term for it. Nikon is very clear-headed and a problem-solver but he's not going to take unnecessary risk. He likes to be correct and have everything figured out before he turns on the burners. Pan is not this way at all. If you watch in slow-mo his record breaking heats he is making mistakes left and right. Every time we take him out on the mat there's a 50/50 change he will do really well vs. something silly like vault himself clear over the box, karate chop a jump in half, etc. It's also difficult to correct some of these issues because the sheer act of doing the work is so rewarding to him. He is not an "NRM" dog, doesn't work! If he makes a mistake we can't just "put him up" like some of the other dogs. He doesn't get that. The handler has to figure out how to set it up so that there's a little room for mistakes as possible so that he's automatically successful because he's going to run at blazing speed and love every hundredth of a second whether he looks perfect or breaks two jumps and drops the ball in the process.

There is ideal conformation but there's also a lot of room there. I've seem some very successful agility dogs from all lines of GSD, even ASL. To me if I lined up these dogs they'd basically be different breeds but it is what it is.

I think "obstacle drive" (or whatever you want to call it) is really important but the nice thing is that this can be developed and trained over time, to an extent. It's funny comparing a dog like Pan that is lightening fast and has almost ideal conformation for speed (at least as far as GSDs go) to a dog like Nikon that so far in agility is faster and better because Nikon has just had more exposure and understands the concept of driving toward the next obstacle in front of him whereas Pan has just as much fun doing obstacle #1 then skipping obstacle #2 then literally blowing through obstacle #3.

I'm sort of in the market for a smaller dog (non GSD) I'd like to do flyball with so this is all on my mind right now. I'm looking at the dogs for what they are and not really focusing on the pedigree even though that's kind of the opposite of what this thread suggests but that's how it works in flyball. Most of the dogs I'm looking at are mixes of at least two breeds.


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## wildo

Haha... yes, point taken. Your comparisons between them always make me laugh. I still think Pan sounds like my kind of dog! :rofl:


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## wildo

Liesje said:


> Every time we take him out on the mat there's a 50/50 change he will do really well vs. something silly like vault himself clear over the box, karate chop a jump in half, etc. ...whereas Pan has just as much fun doing obstacle #1 then skipping obstacle #2 then literally blowing through obstacle #3.


I mean come on- that sounds so fun (and probably frustrating at times). But seriously fun! :rofl: :wild:


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## Liesje

Oh he really is. And he's pretty wash-and-wear too. I mean, you can just pop a leash on him and take him anywhere. He loves people and kids and is gentle too, not a nippy dog ever. I can't wait to see what Jason does with him in agility.

The one thing that is really nice about doing flyball and agility with GSDs is the built in recall. I don't know if you know about my last foster dog, Luna (I mostly post about her on the other GSD forum) but she was adopted by a couple that were actually in my class and live a few blocks away so I recruited them for flyball. This dog can easily be a flyball phenom but holy crap she just runs and runs and runs! It's so hard to get her to FOCUS. We spent about an hour and got maybe 5 really nice turns and the rest of the time she was just running around like crazy. GSDs may not be the first choice breed for these sports but at least mine have never had trouble staying with me and following my lead. They want to work with ME so if *I* am playing box turn then that's what *they* want to do too, not just run around like a fool, lol. She is really trying my patience (and I feel responsible for her training because I probably should have kept her for myself and her owners have never had a dog ever, let alone a crazy flyball dog). However she's got going for her that she's super friendly and stable, absolutely no environmental sensitivity. First time I took her to flyball she was zipping around in the building and playing some violent tug. A lot of more nervy dogs will not play with their handlers at first.


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## wildo

I couldn't agree more. While Pimg doesn't have the drive or energy of either of your dogs- one thing she definitely does have is a desire to work with me. She really does. When we run agility, we are 100% a team. I can tell the she feels it and reciprocates it. There really isn't anything like working WITH your dog, and having a dog that wants to work WITH you!


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## Liesje

I noticed that watching the Superdog videos, especially the times when two dogs were going at once, or it was more like a relay (like the faux flyball thing). We've got a lot of dogs that, speed-wise, would blow those dogs out of the water, but usually more than half the battle is getting them to focus. Some of the dogs take years to train that aspect (especially the Whippets, they don't really understand the concept of retrieve OR recall, lol). A lot of dogs are half or 1/4 terrier...'nuf said! I don't know what Luna is but she looks like a Border Staffy.


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## Jack's Dad

This is funny
Jack does everything perfectly in agility but is fairly slow. I think some of that is due to handling. We 
didn't do a very good job of getting his excitement up. 

Zena goes so fast she falls off equipment, so we have to slow her down.
She just started recently though so hopefully she will put the speed and accuracy together someday.

Another note would be about handling. Jack is very fast off leash in an open field.

So is he fast but not in agility, and if so is that handling or the dog?


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## wildo

Jack's Dad said:


> So is he fast but not in agility, and if so is that handling or the dog?


I think this is a really hard question to answer, personally. Agility is HARD! It's demanding, draining mentally and physically. It's really asking a lot for our dogs to be fast in agility (and I assume in flyball, but have no personal experience there). It could be handling. It could just be confidence in managing the obstacles. It could be a lot of different things, you know?

I know that when I first taught Pimg to heel, that was our first exposure to "professional training." I didn't do it right and was very heavy handed. (To be clear, I feel I was following the lead of the trainer, but that's another story.) When I went to turn while Pimg was heeling, she'd get a collar pop at the moment of the turn. I guess the trainer felt that would get their attention and cause them to be aware of the turn. That's my assumption on why he had us do this. I haven't trained using collar corrections in at least a year and a half (or at least, very minimal collar corrections) and even now when I am practicing heeling, Pimg will always anticipate a turn and hang back a bit. Conditioned response. 

I'm not saying that you've done anything wrong to cause slowness in agility- I'm not saying that at all. What I am saying is that conditioned responses are real, and you may have inadvertently built in slowness without realizing it. It is possible... Heck- even naming a performance prior to it being executed with speed can cause slowness. Happens all the time with weave poles- people name it "go weave!" while the dog is weaving, but weaving slowly, and then they struggle with getting speed through the weave poles. Happened to me...  Live and learn.


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## wildo

Shew.... Way off topic here. I'm still hoping Carmen or some other people can chime in about the original question.


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## Wolfgeist

I believe you find the Thuringian type dogs through the Sali von der Krone and Minna lines... Sali I believe brings medium sized dogs. I am fairly certain Minna flows through a very popular female, Umsa vom Bungalow.


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## Liesje

Jack's Dad said:


> So is he fast but not in agility, and if so is that handling or the dog?



Both, IMO. I think it explains why Nikon is better than Pan at agility (at least so far) but Pan is better at flyball. There's no real thought process involved in flyball once the dog knows the drill. Sure there are jumps but to a GSD, 4 jumps at 6" are not really jumps if you know how to time your dog's stride. Agility involves more thought process throughout, an area where Nikon excels. He is more confident doing agility than flyball, now that I think about it. You need confidence to go full speed. Pan is not as confident doing agility (but that doesn't mean he's a weak, nervy dog!).


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## Mrs.K

Wild Wolf said:


> I believe you find the Thuringian type dogs through the Sali von der Krone and Minna lines... Sali I believe brings medium sized dogs. I am fairly certain Minna flows through a very popular female, Umsa vom Bungalow.


Actually she's going back to Sali von der Krone via her dam. 

However, Umsa was an excellent producing female. Active aggression, stable nerves and a great temperament, courage, strong grips and great physical attributes and stamina.


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## wildo

I'm having a REALLY hard time finding anything about Sali von der Krone. I'll try to find Umsa (not that I know what I'm looking for, just poking around I guess.)

[EDIT] Umsa- http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=339

Mrs.K- are you able to read the description on Umsa's PDB page? 

Groß; kräftig; mit steilem Oberarm und noch guter Hinterhandwinkelung. Flacher Rücken; noch ausreichende Brustverhältnisse. Geräumiges Gangwerk, wobei der Nachschub mehr Kraft haben dürfte. Gutes Wesen und sehr gut ausgeprägten Mut und Kampftrieb.

^^^This is the breed survey, correct?

Nevermind. Props to google translator: 
Large, strong,. With steep upper arm still and good rear angulation Flat back, chest or sufficient conditions. Spacious movement, the supply is likely to have more power. Good character and very well marked courage and fighting instinct.


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## Wolfgeist

Mrs.K said:


> Actually she's going back to Sali von der Krone via her dam.
> 
> However, Umsa was an excellent producing female. Active aggression, stable nerves and a great temperament, courage, strong grips and great physical attributes and stamina.


_Sorry, can you clarify? Umsa is via Sali, you mean?_

Nevermind.. re-read and understood... thank you for fixing my error! 

I am a fan of Umsa, who is present in my male's pedigree.


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## wildo

What am I missing here? I don't see Sali von der Krone in Umsa vom Bungalow's pedigree- even back 6 generations. Did I find the wrong Umsa?


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## Wolfgeist

My notes all tell me that Umsa is through Minna...


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## wildo

I don't see that name either though in the pedigree.


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## Wolfgeist

** copyrighted material removed***

I was correct, Umsa is via Minna.


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## Wolfgeist

wildo said:


> I don't see that name either though in the pedigree.


You need to go waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back... lol.


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## Mrs.K

Wild Wolf said:


> Sorry, can you clarify? Umsa is via Sali, you mean?
> 
> I am a fan of Umsa, who is present in my male's pedigree.


I barely ever get specific but here is what I know. 

Umsa's (while she is bringing in a lot of Claudius) mother is Pali vom Bungalow which is a daughter from Nanouc vom Bungalow and supposedly he is going all the way back to Sali von der Krone. 

Bella von Eislingen, Lida von der Krone, Mari von Grafrath, Miss von Schwaebisch Gemuend, and Rosel von der Krone is the progeny I know off that came out of Sali.


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## Wolfgeist

Minna Nusser - German Shepherd Dog

Minna... SVALT is for unregistered dogs, I believe... for the founding lines / signfiicant lines.


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## wildo

There are records like that for dogs!??? That's like a sorcerer's book!  I can't believe such knowledge like that exists.

So... for clarification, was the Yoschy mentioned this Yoschy: Yoschy von der Döllenwiese? And if so, could we view Yoschy as a (farily) modern representation of the "good" Thuringian lines?


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## Wolfgeist

wildo said:


> There are records like that for dogs!??? That's like a sorcerer's book!  I can't believe such knowledge like that exists.
> 
> So... for clarification, was the Yoschy mentioned this Yoschy: Yoschy von der Döllenwiese? And if so, could we view Yoschy as a (farily) modern representation of the "good" Thuringian lines?


Yessir.


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## Mrs.K

Be careful with pedigree database, there is a lot of wrong information out there because anyone can edit the dogs. However with Rassehunde, Zuchten, Welpen und Hundesport bei Working-dog.eu the information is checked before the moderators will actually publish anything.


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## wildo

Wild Wolf said:


> You need to go waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back... lol.


hah... I guess so. Founding (or very close) female... yeah- that's pretty dang far back!


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## Mrs.K

> I am a fan of Umsa, who is present in my male's pedigree.


Yeah, I saw Palma in your dogs pedigree, Tino vom Koerbelbach son and Nicky van Guys daughter.


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## Mrs.K

Wild Wolf said:


> As explained by Bruce Brisson:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was correct, Umsa is via Minna.


mhmm... let me check on something.


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## wildo

This so rocks my world. Ok here's a dog (GSDBESTK9's dog) who has been noted for producing "fast" dogs: SG- Tara vom Kirchberghof - German Shepherd Dog

I just checked looking for Yoschy to see if Tara has any of the Minna Nusser, and to my surprise, I didn't find Yoschy, but Umsa! So if the Thuringian lines do in fact bring some speed with them, and is brought to fruition most positively through the Minna Nusser lines, of which Umsa is, then this correlation of speed seems to hold true in Tara.

Sooooooo neat. Learn'n stuff.


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## Wolfgeist

My 80+lb male is quite fast for his size, very agile. I keep him lean, but I think it has a lot to do with structure and working conformation... perhaps a result of such things.


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## Mrs.K

wildo said:


> This so rocks my world. Ok here's a dog (GSDBESTK9's dog) who has been noted for producing "fast" dogs: SG- Tara vom Kirchberghof - German Shepherd Dog
> 
> I just checked looking for Yoschy to see if Tara has any of the Minna Nusser, and to my surprise, I didn't find Yoschy, but Umsa! So if the Thuringian lines do in fact bring some speed with them, and is brought to fruition most positively through the Minna Nusser lines, of which Umsa is, then this correlation of speed seems to hold true in Tara.
> 
> Sooooooo neat. Learn'n stuff.


Yes, via Zello. He's a son of Asko, who is a son of Gildo. 
However, Zello was bred to Iris, now guess where Iris is going back to. Bernd vom Lierberg. (Carmspack favorite producer)
She's also got Cliff Wolfendobel, who also goes back to Bernd vom Lierberg.
Quanto von der Winerau is in there as well. We can also find Sagus Bussecker Schloss, which again, goes back to Bernd Lierberg. 
Mike Bungalow, Cora zum Lahntal, mother of Greif zum Lahntal. 

Then we've got Mutz Peltztierfarm, and more Bernd Lieberg via Pleuni vom Busecker Schloss... 
Then she's got Link, Link is going back to Gildo via Jago vom Nesselbach which also means Umsa. But Link also has Bernd vom Lierberg in him. 
Let's see, there is also Wumm von der Kaisersaeule, which is Torro vom Koerbelbach, which leads to Umsa. He's also got Mutz Peltztierfarm, Quanto von der Wienerau, Frei von der Gugge, and what a surprise, MORE Bernd Lierberg.


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## BlackthornGSD

My Yoschy granddaughter Nike (she's 14 now!) goes back to Arek v Stoffelblick-->Gildo->Umsa on her motherline. Also has Mutz behind her. 6 geneneration pedigree for G Ike vom Del U Haus - German Shepherd Dog

She's a small, strong female--55 pounds when she was young and in work. And she was incredibly fast and agile in bitework. Did a smidge of agility obstacle training with her--the first time she got on the dogwalk (full height), she did a 360 trying to figure out which way I was going--not a problem at all on that 12" board. She was a flyer in schutzhund--a real fireball who was a heck of a lot of fun to train.










Her daughter Jubilee is a similar type to her--quick and fast and small--59 lbs, a bit heavier bone, but less coat. Her father was a dog who went back to Mutz and Koerbelbach (Umsa) on the motherline and who was linebred on Sagus v Busecker Schloss 5-5 (Grief z Lahntal son). 

In contrast, her daughter Hunter from a different father is heavier and thicker built and a different type of dog altogether.


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## Mrs.K

BlackthornGSD said:


> My Yoschy granddaughter Nike (she's 14 now!) goes back to Arek v Stoffelblick-->Gildo->Umsa on her motherline. Also has Mutz behind her. 6 geneneration pedigree for G Ike vom Del U Haus - German Shepherd Dog
> 
> She's a small, strong female--55 pounds when she was young and in work. And she was incredibly fast and agile in bitework. Did a smidge of agility obstacle training with her--the first time she got on the dogwalk (full height), she did a 360 trying to figure out which way I was going--not a problem at all on that 12" board. She was a flyer in schutzhund--a real fireball who was a heck of a lot of fun to train.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Her daughter Jubilee is a similar type to her--quick and fast and small--59 lbs, a bit heavier bone, but less coat. Her father was a dog who went back to Mutz and Koerbelbach (Umsa) on the motherline and who was linebred on Sagus v Busecker Schloss 5-5 (Grief z Lahntal son).
> 
> In contrast, her daughter Hunter from a different father is heavier and thicker built and a different type of dog altogether.


Nike sounds exactly like Nala. Fireball is the correct word. Tons of fun to work.


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## Liesje

Willy how are you qualifying "fast"? Because it seems everyone thinks their dog is fast and agile and athletic (and they probably all are). Flyball splits, agility times, lure coursing runs, rapid recall contests? I think there are fast, athletic dogs, and then there are dogs that can maintain speed while having to execute some sort of complex behavior chain or problem solving. When I say Pan is fast I mean he *is* the fastest U-fli GSD in history and the fastest dog on our team (or was until last weekend). When I say Nikon is not fast I mean he's still faster than over half the dogs on our team and faster than most of the other U-fli GSDs but is not as fast as Pan. Kenya, my 50lb athletically built working line female was not fast at all. I guess she *should* have been but compared to my other GSDs and how they actually measure (not just me observing them playing fetch or chasing prey) she was not that fast. I think all GSDs should be fast but when I say fast in this thread I'm talking top level of sport fast.


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## wildo

You know, that's a good question, Lies, that I'm not sure I have a good answer to. _Quantitating_ an adjective is not always the easiest thing to do. It's like describing a color- isn't it? Very difficult. In some sense, I want to just say that you know "fast" when you see it. But that's probably not good enough for this discussion.

For the record, I believe what Carmen said is that "speed" is brought in from the Thuringian lines, of which "fast" would be a proper adjective to describe the dog's speed. For the purposes of this discussion, it might just be easiest to say that when we're talking about speed brought in from the Thuringian lines, we're referring to dogs that are faster at doing most tasks that require motion than dogs influenced more from other founding lines. (You like the semantics loop I played there??)

But really- in _practice_ (which is to say, beyond semantics) I think I'd have to agree with your last assessment of "top level of sport fast." I can say that I actually enjoy the search part of the "bark and hold" drill at the beginning of the C routine because I like watching how fast the dogs run to each blind. Some dogs really poke around; some dogs really_ fly_ to each blind. Again, I think it's difficult to quantify (well, come to think of it- it's not so difficult to quantify in agility since there is a yards per second statistic) in a sport (like Schutzhund) that doesn't keep such statistics. You just have to use your own reference as fast.

And example might be (applied to agility) seen here. Pimg is (was) running on average 4.5 yards per second in CPE agility. It's respectable and faster than most (_maybe_ all?) of the GSDs participating in agility in my local region. I regularly got compliments on her speed at every trial. But then take KristiM's Odin Von Janzhaus who is running 5.81yps in NADAC agility and it's easy to call Odin "fast." From an agility perspective, Tang and Suka v Sapphire Mountain come to mind as dogs I'd have _no_ issue calling "fast." I don't know either Tang or Suka's yard per second statistics, but I'm sure they're up there.


[EDIT] For Liesje- I haven't watched that Suka video in a while (I love it) but in just watching it now, I realized that your video of doing post turns with Pan in your front yard reminded me of the Suka video. I think Pan will get there... I'm really looking forward to seeing how far Jason can take him!


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## carmspack

quoting Bruce Brisson "the best Minna flowed through Frei von der Gugge" and " the obedience found via the Frei line" -- so when you look at my pedigrees you will see a lot of back and forth with sources of Frei (quick to react dog) with the Lierbergs - Wurtemberger reps . 
Bruce on the Sali line "This line breeds very well against the Drigon, Lierberg" -- same thema as the Minna line - the combinations bring in the spark , and the power . 

Nestor Wiegerfelsen. He could be brought in for benefit . Too much then you have sharp, sharp shy, reactive same qualities as for the Sali line , quoting Bruce again "*However*, don't back mass your litters too heavily on this female line as tail chasing, hooked tails, separation anxiety, very low trigger levels that when coupled with the low-courage inherited 'sometimes' via the Thuringian can lead to dogs that can't handle the stress of Schutzhund and can even show very high avoidance behavior as soon as you uncrate them at the trial field. . . . very similar to the Nestor line!"

Yoschy , Sagus , Greif , you have to know and watch the combinations, same with Fero .

Another thing not mentioned is that they tend to mature a little quicker , than the Wurttembergers .

Another reason to use the Thuringian portion with care is that you can get very much less than desireable temperament. The first crisis with temperament in the breed was close to its founding - the opening years of 1900 with a dog named Roland Starkenburg who was the most beautiful dog of his years , linebred 2-2 on his dam Lucie Starkenburg, pure Thuringian lines. 

too much and then you get the dogs that can't cap, (epic fail ) squeal and whistle and whine on the field in excitement, aren't clear and are hard to "out" , get into obsessive compulsive behaviours, at the same time having costs on their health 

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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## carmspack

you don't want too much Umsa, Caro Allerswald , these dogs can be so stubborn you would think they are stupid - poor obedience and tracking , not consistent , one day they were "on" the next day , aggravating


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## Mrs.K

Carmen Isn't Claudius going back to the Sali line? I could have sworn that Umsa is going back to Sali, or is she going back to both? 
I need to re-check the pedigrees.


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## wildo

OK- to recap where we stand on the original topic, or where I think we stand-

The Thuringian line of dogs really stems from two founding females, Sali von der Krone and Minna (Nusser). Sali can tend to bring high reactivity (which might be a nerve issue?) while Minna is more complicated. Minna presents in three different ways, two of which bring more reactivity/aggression. However, one specific line of Minna brings "the best of the best" (unqualified) through Frei von der Gugge and Umsa vom Bungalow, with preference going to Umsa.

A modern (as in 4th-ish generation) representation of these "best of the best" lines could be found in Yoschy von der Döllenwiese, while a slightly older representation (5th-ish generation) can be found in Umsa herself.

At this point, if I am understanding everyone correctly, the Thuringian line absolutely _can_ bring in nerve issues (via reactivity and/or aggression), but the Umsa or Frei lines can (not always, but can) be less prone to such issues.

There also does seem to be a fair number of people claiming "fast" dogs coming from these lines, which supports the claim of supplied speed.

Lastly, Mrs.K mentioned something about Bernd vom Lierberg as a key player. I'm not sure how Bernd fit in, and need more clarification there.


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## carmspack

I meant to offer Link Muikenshof in my earlier post -- very fast , physically and mentally , great aggression and deep bites - SG Link vom Muikenshof - German Shepherd Dog this dog basically has a balance of all the dogs we have been talking about so far.


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## wildo

Dang, I didn't see Carmen's post prior to posting my recap. Perhaps it's not quite as plain and simple as I thought in my recap... Ugh!!! How do you guys keep it all straight!?


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## Mrs.K

carmspack said:


> I meant to offer Link Muikenshof in my earlier post -- very fast , physically and mentally , great aggression and deep bites - SG Link vom Muikenshof - German Shepherd Dog this dog basically has a balance of all the dogs we have been talking about so far.


Yeah, I mentioned him in my earlier post. He's loaded with goodness. :wub:


----------



## Mrs.K

wildo said:


> Dang, I didn't see Carmen's post prior to posting my recap. Perhaps it's not quite as plain and simple as I thought in my recap... Ugh!!! How do you guys keep it all straight!?


Well, my dad barrikaded himself with tons of "Koerbooks" in the office and studdied the lines, back and forth in combination with actually seeing, watching and working all these dogs that are talked about now. 

He started handling dogs when he was a teenager and he was already breeding when my parents were pregnant with me. I'm 33 years old. He's doing it for 50+ years now. Since I was born, it's been dogs, dogs, dogs and more dogs.
Sometimes I am looking at pedigrees and I know "This is good" or "This is bad" but I can't really recall what I've seen on the field because I was to young or don't really remember what was said but I know I can call him or mom up anytime and ask, if needed. :wub:


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## wolfstraum

Speed as a criteria????? 

Willy - go look at auction results of TB race horses! The one, prime, overwhelming goal is speed in breeding TBs.....Secretariat was FAST! Dud as a stud....same with Spectacular Bid....Seattle Slew was a $17K sales yearling - one of the greatest sires of the 20th Century along with Northern Dancer and Mr. Prospector! Crooked legs, small in stature and even crookeder legs - but all are dynastic sires!

Speed is going to be more based on conformation than foundation lines of nearly 100 years ago.....my H litter had one smaller female - Hurricane - and Hexe is not overly big...these two are super fast girls! But Hexe produced male pups that are at the top of the standard! No sure way of knowing that at 8 weeks when you get a puppy!

Lee


----------



## wildo

But is my recap of what has been discussed so far even remotely close? I took it as you basically wanted to stay away from Sali, but it seems Carmen said that if you breed wisely to her line- then all is good. I guess that's where it really comes done to knowing what lineage jives with other lineages. It sure would have been nicer if you just said to stay away from Sali lines... hahaha! (Then again, I doubt she'd be a founding female if she didn't have something good to offer)


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## carmspack

Yoschy and Sagus produced a lot of reactive aggression. This is from the Thuringian , Nestor Wiegerfelsen.
Claudius Hain lines are found through the Korbelbachs, Junker Nassau through the Bernd Lierbergs, Uwe Kirschental, 
then Busecker Schloss a valuable pedigree study , his dog Faust , his use of combining the three (above mentioned) particularly the Claudius and Junker lines together.


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## wildo

wolfstraum said:


> Speed as a criteria?????


 Sure! Why not!? 



wolfstraum said:


> Speed is going to be more based on conformation than foundation lines of nearly 100 years ago.....my H litter had one smaller female - Hurricane - and Hexe is not overly big...these two are super fast girls! But Hexe produced male pups that are at the top of the standard! No sure way of knowing that at 8 weeks when you get a puppy!
> 
> Lee


This thread was started as a spinoff to something Carmen said about speed being supplied from the Thuringian line. I have no doubt that speed is closely related to conformation (in fact, it's logical to me that speed is _directly_ related to conformation). I guess this exercise is to see of the Thuringian line somehow passed a specific conformation that allows for speed...


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## wildo

BTW Carmen- it's like your talking gibberish!! LOL I have no idea what you're talking about with all these names! :rofl:

Can you explain it as if you were talking to a fifth grader?? See my "recap" above to get the "depth" that I'm grasping all this. I know you probably read that and think "man, this guy has got it all wrong!" haha... help me to get it right.


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## Mrs.K

wildo said:


> But is my recap of what has been discussed so far even remotely close? I took it as you basically wanted to stay away from Sali, but it seems Carmen said that if you breed wisely to her line- then all is good. I guess that's where it really comes done to knowing what lineage jives with other lineages. It sure would have been nicer if you just said to stay away from Sali lines... hahaha! (Then again, I doubt she'd be a founding female if she didn't have something good to offer)


Wildo, it's complicated. 

You can have an awesome trial dog, that wins everything but then it turns out that the dog doesn't produce. That is what generally is called an "End-Product". End of the line... 
And then you have a dog that seems to be extreme. Gildo was called extreme and his own LG stalled him from producing and badmouthed him. No one really wanted him when he was still alive because he was considered extreme but look what that dog produced. He was a producer! 
When he died, all of a sudden everyone wanted Gildo, Gildo and more Gildo. 

There is more Gildo blood in the US than in Germany. 

But to answer your question, yes it is about combination and knowing which male fits the female, but it's not just the papers you have to look at. It's the dogs themselves and then there is the final question, even though you've got the papers, DOES THE DOG REALLY PRODUCE?
And for that, it'll take a while to find that out.


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## carmspack

Wildo that Sali is sooo long ago she is part of the "old blood" you have to know what the convergence is in the pedigrees offered today.
I said go look at the Nickolas thread and see a GSD with a damaged flop ear . She doesn't give you a clue as to her agility ability -- but she is intense -- managed by Mike Clays wife Paula , a very competitive person in agility and with many achievements . Many. I spoke to him earlier in the day and asked about this dog and if I have it correctly in National agility competiton out of 134 entries Paula ended up in 9th? 
Mike said he would get the facts and the achievements .
Knowing the rapid fire response and control that Badger offers this would be a dog to reckon with in agility.

Years ago I had a little female who ended up being a certified narcotic dog -- pretty little beast with glowing reddish tone to her sable coat . I called her Flame , hot little dog. The officer that got her in a Christmas card sent years after with an update said the dog was so fast I should have called her Flicker , that was their nickname for her because she would run past you and you never got to see the flame, just the flicker.


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## JakodaCD OA

I so agree with Lee when it comes to especially looking for "speed" to compete at the top specifically in agility. 

I haven't been on the agility field in a few years, but when I was, and just starting, way back when, gsd's were/are far and few in between when it comes to being in top competition. 

I just 'happened' to have one that ranked #4 & 5 in the akc rankings in 99 and 00. She was a long legged/long bodied crazy girl who weighed about 70lbs (large!) and 26" at the shoulders, built more like a big mal. But she had "heart", she was driven, she lived to please and thrived on it. She certainly wasn't a dog/puppy I picked to do agility with, it just happened.

While I see alot of 'fast' dogs, the majority of really fast top dogs competing in agility aren't gsd's 

Unfortunate but it is what it is. I think to find one for 'speed', sure may have alot to do with what's behind it, but it's going to be the dog itself, if it doesn't have the build, the drive, the desire to please, the 'daring' and willingness, and then you have to be a great handler to bring it to it's fullest, otherwise it's just not going to cut it.

I think Tang is probably the best example of what I see and like in a "fast" gsd for agility. She's a thinker, she's seasoned, she has a great handler and she is loving working for her handler. They work as a team and you can see it.

There are a couple of people here in New England that have dogs from Bonnie, and they are crazy fast as well. 

I think getting a dog espec a gsd specifically for top competition in agility can be a tough call , no way to predict the future altho one can only hope 

I think it's much easier to find a puppy geared towards the other venues, schutz, working, herding, that type of thing , agility just is much different.


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## carmspack

Gildo was awesome. Actually Gildo is a source of Sali v d Krone -- double X , one line indeed coming through Umsa Bungalow . 
Sali did bring that high active aggression , and territorial guarding, and speed in the energy form, but could also be stubborn in the obedience , which would reduce your speed to run through a race or course where time mattered .
Many things to weigh, physical and mental attributes . Attitude has a lot to do with it , not just the physical conformation.


The Thuringian lines were the lines brought in to secure the prick wolf ear -as early as the mid 1800 , bred and selected for beauty - for the big expositions which were all the craze at the time. They were later mixed with female herding stock. They were bred for show, bred for beauty and had issues with temperament . So the first crisis for temperament in this newly formed breed was with this


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## Wolfgeist

carmspack said:


> I meant to offer Link Muikenshof in my earlier post -- very fast , physically and mentally , great aggression and deep bites - SG Link vom Muikenshof - German Shepherd Dog this dog basically has a balance of all the dogs we have been talking about so far.


One of my favourite dogs, one of the reasons I went with Hunter's pedigree.

Thank you for chiming in, Carmen. Your posts are priceless as always.


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## BlackthornGSD

And bringing Link and Gildo together, you get a small, athletic, top-producing female--Rani:

Rani von der Daelenberghütte - German Shepherd Dog


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## cliffson1

Wildo, you are trying to go from basic math to trigonometry. Can't be done.....too much information in between that has to be understood to even BEGIN to use "going back to thuringian blood" in a constructive way. It's like trying to explain a rocket equation to a basic math student....you can try but they come away not fully understanding and certainly not able to explain it. Often, it is how misinformation is passed because there is sooooooo much more in between Minna and Sali and Thurigian and other aspects. I'm not trying to sound like an elitist, but it takes years and years of studying to start to see some of these correlations. 
When somebody like Carmen tell you the direction to take " in general", and you come back with..." But I know you can........!"...... Well it doesn't make sense to me cause she is trying to help you get what you want and you don't know how to get there so how can you KNOW it can be what you are stating? 
I hope this makes sense....but you must crawl before you walk.....most of the people who know these dogs and lines you are bringing up have many many years in breed and knowledge. Just trying to help.


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## BlackthornGSD

For Carmen--and anyone else--so, who do you look for to breed to balance out a "Thuringen" type dog? What are the big names you look for back in the pedigree to bring balance to a "heavily Thuringen" pedigree?

And, then, of course, what dogs are available now as a good option to go to those bloodlines?


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## BlackthornGSD

For the curious, Tang's pedigree:

6 geneneration pedigree for Bonjon Dizzy Gin Fiz Dschungel - German Shepherd Dog


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## cliffson1

One last thing....the info that Blackthorn, Carmen, and Wild Wolf is giving is good stuff to look into, and some good places to start studying....my above post is more in relation to trying to tie lines and types together from the past. Takes a lot of foundation


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## wildo

cliffson1 said:


> Wildo, you are trying to go from basic math to trigonometry. Can't be done.....too much information in between that has to be understood to even BEGIN to use "going back to thuringian blood" in a constructive way. It's like trying to explain a rocket equation to a basic math student....you can try but they come away not fully understanding and certainly not able to explain it. Often, it is how misinformation is passed because there is sooooooo much more in between Minna and Sali and Thurigian and other aspects. I'm not trying to sound like an elitist, but it takes years and years of studying to start to see some of these correlations.


Yeah man- that's exactly how I feel! I made the thread specifically because Carmen pointed out that "speed" is generally supplied through the Thuringian blood- and more specifically because this line can bring an unbalance if not used right. That seems easy enough. I sure didn't know she was talking about founding dogs from over 100 years ago!! At first I thought I could get a grip on it. I mean- it's only TWO dogs! I quickly realized once Carmen showed up name dropping (haha!) that I'm in WAY over my head here...



cliffson1 said:


> When somebody like Carmen tell you the direction to take " in general", and you come back with..." But I know you can........!"...... Well it doesn't make sense to me cause she is trying to help you get what you want and you don't know how to get there so how can you KNOW it can be what you are stating?


Actually- I'm not sure I am following you in that one. If I stated in this thread that I "knew" something, I certainly meant that I thought I understood the information being presented. Granted- I'll not be a "rocket scientist" from an online thread, but I do hope that I'm allowed to learn and KNOW something based on the info presented. That's why I started the thread- to learn. So like I said, if I stated in this thread that I "knew" something, I meant that I thought I understood the information presented.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

wolfstraum said:


> Speed as a criteria?????
> 
> Willy - go look at auction results of TB race horses! The one, prime, overwhelming goal is speed in breeding TBs.....Secretariat was FAST! Dud as a stud....same with Spectacular Bid....Seattle Slew was a $17K sales yearling - one of the greatest sires of the 20th Century along with Northern Dancer and Mr. Prospector! Crooked legs, small in stature and even crookeder legs - but all are dynastic sires!
> 
> Speed is going to be more based on conformation than foundation lines of nearly 100 years ago.....my H litter had one smaller female - Hurricane - and Hexe is not overly big...these two are super fast girls! But Hexe produced male pups that are at the top of the standard! *No sure way of knowing that at 8 weeks when you get a puppy!*
> 
> Lee


I was thinking this is as I was reading the interesting talk about the lines (I always think of the 3 main Morgan stallions after Figure) and thinking that if I were looking for a dog for agility or flyball and didn't want to just get lucky (or not) I would look for a young adult dog - obviously, knowing me, that always goes back to rescue (where drivey, fast, working dogs of all breeds have a harder time finding homes or even making it to the adoption floor) or breeders with young adults. 

Threadjack done.  Please continue to entertain me!


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## lhczth

Mrs.K said:


> \
> Let's see, there is also Wumm von der Kaisersaeule, which is Torro vom Koerbelbach, which leads to Umsa.


Wumm was a son of Troll Körbelbach and did not go back on Torro.


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## lhczth

BlackthornGSD said:


> And bringing Link and Gildo together, you get a small, athletic, top-producing female--Rani:
> 
> Rani von der Daelenberghütte - German Shepherd Dog


And then they bred Rani to the small, fast, and very athletic Belschik 

Belschik von Eicken-Bruche - working-dog.eu

producing the V and X litters von der Daelenberghütte. This breeding brought in more Gildo through Arek Stoffelblick plus two lines back through Matsch Bungalow. I wish I had had a chance to take Nike to one of the V or X litter males.


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## Liesje

The pedigree stuff is all beyond me at this point but Willy I think more along the lines of what Lee is saying. I hate to say it but for what I think *you* are looking for I don't know that it has much value in this regard. I mean it's super important for understanding the genetics behind the temperament but when you are looking for top speed you just have to evaluate the individual dogs because this conversation is still not accounting for why there can be dogs in the same litter that are top level, so-so, or duds if they all have the same pedigree and go back to these fabulously "fast" dogs of yore. Even a MACH or CATCH dog doesn't necessarily have to be all that fast, just fast enough.


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## wildo

I think you're right! But you know me, I just like (love!) to know the inner workings of things. It was fascinating to think that a specific lineage could explain certain traits like speed, but I guess I'm not going to be able to understand it well enough. Luckily, there are great breeders out there who DO understand it. That's probably the important part.


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## Liesje

And don't sell yourself short! The training and technique is half of it. I guess for me it's more of a chicken/egg debate than pedigree. Granted, all the training in the world can't make a duddy dog fast and good but usually it is the training and technique that separates a decent dog from the top level.


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## Wolfgeist

wildo said:


> I think you're right! But you know me, I just like (love!) to know the inner workings of things. It was fascinating to think that a specific lineage could explain certain traits like speed, but I guess I'm not going to be able to understand it well enough. Luckily, there are great breeders out there who DO understand it. That's probably the important part.


Of course you can understand it, you just have to start learning! Months ago I came into reading pedigrees, knowing dogs and understanding bloodlines knowing about only a little more than your average dog owner. Now I am at the point where I have a decent foundation and know some of the significant dogs very well. I am not an expert, but I know a lot after a half a year. 

We all start at the bottom, just gotta absorb what you can and make an effort to research and talk to people.

You're doing great, and I know exactly what you are trying to find out. Just because the answer is complicated doesn't mean you shouldn't try to learn or "shouldn't bother" because it's too complex. Learn, grow, etc.


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## carmspack

Blackthorn thanks for reminding me of Rani Daelenberghutte - love that pedigree -- and yes you sure would get that speedy performance , real keen and crisp from Belschick !! (nice dogs) . I know that Rani and Belschick breeding combination through a male Xamm Daelenberghutte Xamm von der Daelenberghütte - German Shepherd Dog produced several top flight competition dogs and several police service dogs , plus Xamm being used for a British police breeding program. Xamm von der Daelenberghütte - German Shepherd Dog

Lisa had great success with Belschick !!! 

The Thuringian thingy may be far distant in its origins but still holds great value in understanding what it is , how they came about, what they offered both good and bad and how to best use it. It is not obscure . The Thuringian lines are all around us with density in many sport dogs of the day -- high prey , speedy flashy performance , quick to ignite - with good and bad . Great when balanced , terrible when all the negatives are compiled -- and it is not just working or sport dogs because the show lines are predominantly thuringian - no wurtembergers in sight . 
The ideal is always to select for best temperament -- test for it . My friend in BC (not the dinosaur years but may as well be) , currently has a 100% show line pup of her breeding that would make an excellent search dog -- her tests are thorough , just might bring him here to get a look and feel for the dog. Anyway she asked me , since I consult on breedings seeing that her base and foundation is from my program , to look around and find a male line for a particular female . In my looking around I did find this show line male that I love the look of WilmothHaus - WenzelMozilla/4.0 (vBSEO; http://www.vbseo.com) and by look of I mean the whole package not just the visual. 
Too much , out of balance , and you just may get a dog that you can't live with .


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## carmspack

yes Alf and Arek Stoffelblick absolutely brought in speed and intensity -- in my pedigrees deliberately using G Ina vom Haus Gard - German Shepherd Dog - the dam of Nick Heiligenbosch (there is speed) with Alf Stoffelblick / Blanka Niddereiche offspring .


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## FG167

BlackthornGSD said:


> And bringing Link and Gildo together, you get a small, athletic, top-producing female--Rani:
> 
> Rani von der Daelenberghütte - German Shepherd Dog





lhczth said:


> And then they bred Rani to the small, fast, and very athletic Belschik
> 
> Belschik von Eicken-Bruche - working-dog.eu
> 
> producing the V and X litters von der Daelenberghütte. This breeding brought in more Gildo through Arek Stoffelblick plus two lines back through Matsch Bungalow. I wish I had had a chance to take Nike to one of the V or X litter males.


Kastle's lines. He is also small, fast, and athletic.


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## Mrs.K

lhczth said:


> Wumm was a son of Troll Körbelbach and did not go back on Torro.


Yikes, you are correct. He is Troll, not Torro.


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## KristiM

carmspack said:


> Blackthorn thanks for reminding me of Rani Daelenberghutte - love that pedigree -- and yes you sure would get that speedy performance , real keen and crisp from Belschick !! (nice dogs) . I know that Rani and Belschick breeding combination through a male Xamm Daelenberghutte Xamm von der Daelenberghütte - German Shepherd Dog produced several top flight competition dogs and several police service dogs , plus Xamm being used for a British police breeding program. Xamm von der Daelenberghütte - German Shepherd Dog


 
My young dog is a Xamm great grandson, he is very much like described. Very quick, flashy and I think that he will be quite fast in agility. He is also "easy to light up" and has lots of active aggression. I can definitley see where even the smallest amount of insecurity in him would make him an absolute nightmare. It's kinda funny reading all this about pedigrees and going "hey they are describing my dog and the lines match up!" I honestly never really put a ton of stock in what is further back in a pedigree.


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## carmspack

Kristi M using your post may be useful in showing Wildo the importance of selection. Putting Xamm in the position of great grandfather puts him in the 3rd generation and brings in another 13 dogs (excluding self) . Each of those other animals brings along their family influences . It depends how they are put together. 

If you want to post a pedigree?


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## KristiM

Dam:

Evita von der Daelenberghütte - German Shepherd Dog

Sire:
V Chuck vom Dorneburger Bach - German Shepherd Dog

I have yet to add Havoc to the database There are definitely some other strong influences in his pedigree. I would guess that he gets his "flash" and quickness from the damline and a lot of his dominance etc from the sireline. But that's just my guess.


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## wildo

KristiM said:


> I have yet to add Havoc to the database There are definitely some other strong influences in his pedigree. I would guess that he gets his "flash" and quickness from the damline and a lot of his dominance etc from the sireline. But that's just my guess.


You can do it through a mate test:
Line-breeding for the progency of V Chuck vom Dorneburger Bach and Evita von der Daelenberghütte - German Shepherd Dog


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## Wolfgeist

When you guys speak of Gildo, are you referring to Gildo vom Korbelbach?


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## lhczth

KristiM said:


> Dam:
> 
> Evita von der Daelenberghütte - German Shepherd Dog
> 
> Sire:
> V Chuck vom Dorneburger Bach - German Shepherd Dog
> 
> I have yet to add Havoc to the database There are definitely some other strong influences in his pedigree. I would guess that he gets his "flash" and quickness from the damline and a lot of his dominance etc from the sireline. But that's just my guess.


Your dog gets a lot of power, social aggression (SA), fight and dominance from her dam lines. Her grandmother is linebred on Belschik who, himself, was a rather rank dog (luckily he didn't produce this in the dogs I knew) with high social aggression and excellent nerves. The reason he produced such good police dogs. The dam's lines are filled with dogs known to produce a lot of power and social aggression, not just flash. 

Your dog is also linebred on Mink who brought in more SA and power. Her sire's mother lines have Crok and Roby Maineiche which brings in more power, SA, dominance. IMO Falk brought balance to Chuck's dam and didn't add to what she brings to the picture.


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## lhczth

Wild Wolf said:


> When you guys speak of Gildo, are you referring to Gildo vom Korbelbach?


Yes.


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## Mrs.K

Here is another firecracker. 
One thing I did notice is that all the strong and fast females are similar in confirmation. 

Nala vom Kassler Kreuz - working-dog.eu

Nala also has a lot of active aggression, she is fast and very powerful. Has a deep and solid grip.


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## KristiM

Interesting.... I always thought that his intensity and drive would have come down from his damline and his dominance ad social aggression from the sireline. I have always heard that falk brings a lot of hardness/ aggression. Do you mean rank as in rank driven? Or rank as in nasty? (Re belschik) wonder if that is whee havoc's nasty side comes from? There are definitely times that I would describe him as "rank" (as in nasty) curious where that comes from. He is a very powerful dog! 

I think speed wise he has the potential to be very fast. In fact the reason that i thought his drive, speed and intensity came from the damline was watching dogs like ****** and optikas dusty offspring they are all very fast, hard hitting dogs (or at least they look that way to me.) when I picked this litter one of the big things I was looking for was SPEED and power. He has a great deal o both. He can be a bit much at times, but man can he work.


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## lhczth

Rank as in extremely dominant. Dogs like him are pretty rare, luckily, because they are not easy dogs to handle. Belschik believed he owned the world and everything else was below him. Even at 12 you could see that in his whole demeanor. He was, though, totally approachable.


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## KristiM

Okay... Havoc is very dominant! Totally thought that came from the falk line. he does not have any handler aggression when corrected etc but has been astonishingly dominant from the time I brought him home. I felt like the breeder gave me an 8 week old DOG not a puppy. 

So this line goes back to the thuringian line? I don't see any nerve issues in my dog (he believes he owns the world) but he is very alert, quick to react and I find him almost twitchy in his movements. My husband says he looks like a robot the way he makes fast, calculated movements lol. I don't know many other GSDs with lines similar to his and he seems quite different from a lot of other working lines I have met (almost more malinois like.)


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## BlackthornGSD

KristiM said:


> Okay... Havoc is very dominant! Totally thought that came from the falk line. he does not have any handler aggression when corrected etc but has been astonishingly dominant from the time I brought him home. I felt like the breeder gave me an 8 week old DOG not a puppy.
> 
> So this line goes back to the thuringian line? I don't see any nerve issues in my dog (he believes he owns the world) but he is very alert, quick to react and I find him almost twitchy in his movements. My husband says he looks like a robot the way he makes fast, calculated movements lol. I don't know many other GSDs with lines similar to his and he seems quite different from a lot of other working lines I have met (almost more malinois like.)


You've pinpointed a lot of things here -- the Thuringen-type is malinois-like--that's a very good way to think of it. Also, the Belgian working line dogs are very Thuringen type and very malinois-like--they seem to select for that type of working ability and drive. So you get very drivey dogs with low thresholds, fast reactions, hard hits, flashy obedience, etc.

As long as the nerves are good, these can be *excellent* dogs--but not for everyone. This is not a couch potato puppy! They may have off switches, but they are still not always the best pets for someone who isn't really into training (not because the dog needs training to fix things but training to challenge the dog's mind and keep him happy).

Again, I'm really curious about what dogs people think of to go to in order to balance out this type of dog.


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## wildo

BlackthornGSD said:


> Again, I'm really curious about what dogs people think of to go to in order to balance out this type of dog.


Based on this, I'm guessing the Wurtembergers balance out the Thuringian lines:



carmspack said:


> The Thuringian lines are all around us with density in many sport dogs of the day -- high prey , speedy flashy performance , quick to ignite - with good and bad . Great when balanced , terrible when all the negatives are compiled -- and it is not just working or sport dogs because the show lines are predominantly thuringian - no wurtembergers in sight .


[EDIT]- I actually love the question though. Pedigrees seem pretty well impossible to read if you don't know the dogs. What a shame. I don't want to have to PM Cliff, Carmen, or Lee any time I have a pedigree question. Without some "background theory," we can't really do the "modern practical." Maybe a really fun spin-off thread would be in addressing pedigree reading not from knowing the dogs in the pedigree, but in knowing the founding lines in the pedigree. Hmmm.... intriguing.


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## BlackthornGSD

wildo said:


> Based on this, I'm guessing the Wurtembergers balance out the Thuringian lines:
> 
> 
> 
> [EDIT]- I actually love the question though. Pedigrees seem pretty well impossible to read if you don't know the dogs. What a shame. I don't want to have to PM Cliff, Carmen, or Lee any time I have a pedigree question. Without some "background theory," we can't really do the "modern practical." Maybe a really fun spin-off thread would be in addressing pedigree reading not from knowing the dogs in the pedigree, but in knowing the founding lines in the pedigree. Hmmm.... intriguing.


Yes, of course, the "other types"--I'm asking for some names/examples of the other types. 

I can make some guesses....

I'm going to bet that Racker v Itzal/Harro/Fado bring in non-Thuringen lines. Maybe also Lord v Gleisdreick and other dogs going back to Ingo Rudingen. Probably also Urs v Hopfenstrasse, Marc Herkulesblick/Cliff v Wolfendobel. Maybe also Ilja ad schwarzen Zwinger and his kids.

And remember--all GSDs are going to be a combination of both types/bloodlines. But some dogs bring the traits of one type more strongly than others.


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## Wolfgeist

** Information removed. Copyright violation**


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## wildo

Who is this Bruce guy? I think I'd like to read more of what he has to say... What are you quoting Wild Wolf?


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## lhczth

Wild Wolf, have you asked permission to post list mail from Bruce? That information is for the list only and is not to be shared away from the list without express permission of the author. 

ADMIN Lisa


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## Chris Wild

I was just wondering the same thing, with regards to whether or not permission was given to post Bruce's messages. Great info there, but it is to stay on the list and not be shared without permission.

-Chris (another Admin and EuroList member)


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## Wolfgeist

Oops. sorry. Permission was not given. My mistake, please feel free to remove it.

I simply wasn't aware I couldn't share that knowledge.


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## gagsd

Wild Wolf said:


> Oops. sorry. Permission was not given. My mistake, please feel free to remove it.
> 
> I simply wasn't aware I couldn't share that knowledge.


It is one of the "rules" when you join the GSD Euro group.


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## Wolfgeist

gagsd said:


> It is one of the "rules" when you join the GSD Euro group.


Yeah, I am aware now. Thanks.


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## carmspack

wondered that myself - where outside of the eurolist is that even available

back to answers --- surprising confirmation " there is some relation to the mastiffs through the Swabians, but this has never been confirmed!" - the canine genome project did find to their great surprise , totally no expectation of this , that the GSD had a greater blood relation in DNA with mastiff type than wolf , which the border collie fell in to. Remove the visual of the English Bull and the modern day exaggerations and think of the dogs that the Romans brought with them into Britain , the molossers were used as flock guardians and seemed to have two different types , hangear heavy and prick wolf-ear lighter frame History and Origin of the Molosser Breeds (Mastiff breeds) 


here is the canine genome map http://psych.ucsf.edu/K9BEHAVIORALGENETICS/pdf/Literature%20PDF/Sutter%202004%20NatRevGen%20canine%20review.pdf - read the entire study or skip the site's page 907 . You will see Belgian Sheepdog ,Malinois, Rough Collies, Border Collies on the left side of the page , the German Shepherd is on the far right under the Newf's and Mastiff type.

Possibly the molosser is best seen in the Swabian Service dogs which stood taller than the Wurttembergers and the Swabian herding dogs. Bold and courageous dogs .

going to von der Krone , the breedings of "So" Eiselen (sp?) these are herding lines that are regional , landrace, and pre-date von Stephanitz's involvement , meaning that he, "So" was crossing regional types before "Max" . Madam v d Krone , some question whether to technically call her Wurttemberger or Swabian sheepdog . 

I see on one of my posts from late last night that more than half is missing ?? -- I brought up Roland Starkenburg , who in the earliest days, first decade of the 1900's created one of several breed crisis where von Stephanitz had to return to regional landrace working herding females to restore temperament. Although Roland was the most beautiful dog of the day , he was not temperamentally sound and did transmit this to his offspring, inspite of Max's denial saying the dog was so because he was his spoiled (baby - my words) sheltered dog . 
------- answers to which dogs to balance everything that ms Blackthorn mentioned -- just like the historical sample that von Stepanitz outlined in his book -- each and every time there was a crisis in disintegrating temperaments he deliberately sought out known but not registered bona fide working shepherd dogs (females) 
answer to how to counter the negative , while keeping the positive - getting the best of two types -- once again the dogs that ms Blackthorn mentioned and deep herding lines - Perry / Enno Beilstein , in no order just as I recall them -- almost anything Busecker Schloss (with the exception of Pleuni and I would add Half - too much Sagus ) -- I like Gibsy Alten Wassermuhle -- much Bernd and going back through the DDR to one of the best herding lines Norbert burg Fasanental - see how many of my pedigrees have this resource through Pushka vom haus Himpel - and Bernd. 
haus Bungalow dogs Matsch who is on Nick Heiligenbosch and Belschick -- A little more on Matsch in the context of speed this dog Matsch was known for speed in his performance for covering ground for response in obedience lightning fast AND very very important he was able to endure PRESSURE - so the ideal agility dog -- biddable, super fast , accurate and delivered - one of the reasons I can go back into my pedigrees and find a healthy dose of Matsch -- 
Mink Wittfeld . 
Tarbes haus knufken , Bert v haus Knufken, Arthus Lunsholz --- more as I think of them.


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## Mrs.K

What euro list is that?


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## lhczth

Wild Wolf, I am also a moderator on the Euro list.  

All posts sent to any of the email lists are technically copyrighted and should not be shared with out the express permission of the author.


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## onyx'girl

Mrs.K said:


> What euro list is that?


It is a yahoo group, It is a closed group, you have to be recommended or invited by an Admin or member of the list. Anyone want to invite me? :gsdbeggin:


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## Mrs.K

onyx'girl said:


> It is a yahoo group, It is a closed group, you have to be recommended or invited by an Admin or member of the list. Anyone want to invite me? :gsdbeggin:


Found it and asked to join and they said that you don't necessarily have to be recommended. They wanted a more thorough introduction though so I sent them one.


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## wildo

Mrs.K said:


> Found it and asked to join and they said that you don't necessarily have to be recommended.


Same here, but I'll add that they said they wanted people who could contribute. Well shucks...


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## Mrs.K

wildo said:


> Same here, but I'll add that they said they wanted people who could contribute. Well shucks...


With me they clarified that contributing doesn't necessarily means to answer questions but also to ask a lot of questions.


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## Wolfgeist

lhczth said:


> Wild Wolf, I am also a moderator on the Euro list.
> 
> All posts sent to any of the email lists are technically copyrighted and should not be shared with out the express permission of the author.


Hey guys,

I made a mistake. I DID read the rules; I just forgot that bit because I was excited trying to teach someone and share the information. I already apologized, recognized my mistake, can we move on? You guys are making me feel bad for continuously mentioning it.


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## BlackthornGSD

carmspack said:


> answer to how to counter the negative , while keeping the positive - getting the best of two types -- once again the dogs that ms Blackthorn mentioned and deep herding lines - Perry / Enno Beilstein , in no order just as I recall them -- almost anything Busecker Schloss (with the exception of Pleuni and I would add Half - too much Sagus ) -- I like Gibsy Alten Wassermuhle -- much Bernd and going back through the DDR to one of the best herding lines Norbert burg Fasanental - see how many of my pedigrees have this resource through Pushka vom haus Himpel - and Bernd.
> haus Bungalow dogs Matsch who is on Nick Heiligenbosch and Belschick -- A little more on Matsch in the context of speed this dog Matsch was known for speed in his performance for covering ground for response in obedience lightning fast AND very very important he was able to endure PRESSURE - so the ideal agility dog -- biddable, super fast , accurate and delivered - one of the reasons I can go back into my pedigrees and find a healthy dose of Matsch --
> Mink Wittfeld .
> Tarbes haus knufken , Bert v haus Knufken, Arthus Lunsholz --- more as I think of them.


I was researching Perry v Beilstein yesterday--doesn't seem like he was bred as much as I might have thought--had trouble figuring out which of today's dogs carry him as a significant influence. Seems like his daughters may have been more successful in carrying him forward. Any particular dogs in today's pedigrees that you see going back to Perry?

Would love to know of any dogs carrying Tarbes. 

You seem to most often get Bert v Haus Knufken from Arthus who was 5-3 on Bert. And Arthus is definitely a significant force in today's working lines -- you have quite a few big names going back to him -- 

Sid vh Pixner --> Ax vd Schindergraben
Dasty vh Gries --> Eiko v Zitadellenburg
Bastin v Kokeltal - any good sons/daughters out of him? V Bastin vom Kokeltal - German Shepherd Dog
Pike/Pollux v Schafbachmuhle

In researching names for this, I just realized that a dog that looked good the WUSV competition (although he got DQ'd) last night is one of these:
SG Macho vom Ottilienstein - through his grandmother Winni - SG Macho vom Ottilienstein - German Shepherd Dog


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## BlackthornGSD

Oh, another interesting pedigree:

Josera vom Kirchberghof - German Shepherd Dog


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## carmspack

surprise Ms Blackthorn - maybe time to start new thread?
Herding genetics


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## BlackthornGSD

carmspack said:


> surprise Ms Blackthorn - maybe time to start new thread?
> Herding genetics


How'd you know that's what I was trying to track down? 

One of my pups (now 4 years old), Jedi, won first place in a USBCHA Novice/Novice class last weekend. He and his owner/trainer are on their way to GSDCA nationals to herd there next week. I'd love to recover some more of the old herding genetics. It's amazing how much instinct has passed down to Jedi and Jubilee with no herding in the past 5,6,7? generations.


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## cliffson1

Christine, I don't like Sid vh Pixner because of his looks!


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## robk

Sid is one of my favorite dogs!


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## lhczth

Carmen, Matsch Bungalow also brought social aggression and fight, strong dogs with very sound temperements. Belschik's dam was linebred on Matsch and one of the big reason I took Vala (my Belschik daughter) to Javir was his tail female lines going through Ira Körbelbach resulting in a linebreeding on both Ira and Matsch Bungalow. 

Bert v. Haus Knüfken is an excellent source of the "old working blood". Besides being behind Arthus he is also behind Urs Hopfenstraße (who also carries more lines to the old working blood through Ase von der Douglasfichte).


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## Vandal

> I was researching Perry v Beilstein yesterday--doesn't seem like he was bred as much as I might have thought--had trouble figuring out which of today's dogs carry him as a significant influence


Perry was not the producer Enno was. He was brought to California when Enno was still alive. Enno was also in California. Did that play into the reason for less breedings? I don't think so but Enno was also owned by a breeder who knew what she was doing and had other very good lines to breed him to. Perry was purchased by Egon Vorrath. While he did breed, he was not someone I thought of as a "breeder". He sold the dog fairly quickly, as I recall.

I think there was some talk about hips with Perry and there was also a rumor about Enno in that regard that I just did not experience. I saw MANY Enno progeny, ( my friend and training partner owned him), with good hips and never felt he was a big problem in that regard. I am using dogs who have him close and multiple times in the pedigree and getting very good results. So, what is said is not always accurate. The source needs more scutiny because their are people who claim they have lots of experience with a dog and his progeny when that is simply not the case. Enno lived into his thirteenth year and produced litters at that age.
As people have probably heard me say too much, he was without a doubt, the best GSD I have seen. Everything you wanted to see, hardeness, fight drive, courage, and an amazing ability to hear and respond to the handler when in a high state of drive. A dog who could take corrections and come up in drive and try harder. No residual effects where you would see other behaviors. He channeled his drives extremely well and produced it in his pups. This is in contrast to other dogs I saw at the time , and my comments about Gildo in the other thread, highlight that difference. 
For me, this was the herding line influence but Vello had a great deal to do with it as well.


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## BlackthornGSD

Vandal said:


> Perry was not the producer Enno was. He was brought to California when Enno was still alive. Enno was also in California. Did that play into the reason for less breedings? I don't think so but Enno was also owned by a breeder who knew what she was doing and had other very good lines to breed him to. Perry was purchased by Egon Vorrath. While he did breed, he was not someone I thought of as a "breeder". He sold the dog fairly quickly, as I recall.
> 
> I think there was some talk about hips with Perry and there was also a rumor about Enno in that regard that I just did not experience. I saw MANY Enno progeny, ( my friend and training partner owned him), with good hips and never felt he was a big problem in that regard. I am using dogs who have him close and multiple times in the pedigree and getting very good results. So, what is said is not always accurate. The source needs more scutiny because their are people who claim they have lots of experience with a dog and his progeny when that is simply not the case. Enno lived into his thirteenth year and produced litters at that age.
> As people have probably heard me say too much, he was without a doubt, the best GSD I have seen. Everything you wanted to see, hardeness, fight drive, courage, and an amazing ability to hear and respond to the handler when in a high state of drive. A dog who could take corrections and come up in drive and try harder. No residual effects where you would see other behaviors. He channeled his drives extremely well and produced it in his pups. This is in contrast to other dogs I saw at the time , and my comments about Gildo in the other thread, highlight that difference.
> For me, this was the herding line influence but Vello had a great deal to do with it as well.


Thank you for your response--I knew that you were very fond of Enno and his influence, but it's great to get more details.


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## Wolfgeist

Vandal said:


> Perry was not the producer Enno was. He was brought to California when Enno was still alive. Enno was also in California. Did that play into the reason for less breedings? I don't think so but Enno was also owned by a breeder who knew what she was doing and had other very good lines to breed him to. Perry was purchased by Egon Vorrath. While he did breed, he was not someone I thought of as a "breeder". He sold the dog fairly quickly, as I recall.
> 
> I think there was some talk about hips with Perry and there was also a rumor about Enno in that regard that I just did not experience. I saw MANY Enno progeny, ( my friend and training partner owned him), with good hips and never felt he was a big problem in that regard. I am using dogs who have him close and multiple times in the pedigree and getting very good results. So, what is said is not always accurate. The source needs more scutiny because their are people who claim they have lots of experience with a dog and his progeny when that is simply not the case. Enno lived into his thirteenth year and produced litters at that age.
> As people have probably heard me say too much, he was without a doubt, the best GSD I have seen. Everything you wanted to see, hardeness, fight drive, courage, and an amazing ability to hear and respond to the handler when in a high state of drive. A dog who could take corrections and come up in drive and try harder. No residual effects where you would see other behaviors. He channeled his drives extremely well and produced it in his pups. This is in contrast to other dogs I saw at the time , and my comments about Gildo in the other thread, highlight that difference.
> For me, this was the herding line influence but Vello had a great deal to do with it as well.


Enno's full name, please?


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## carmspack

enno beilstein V Enno vom Beilstein - German Shepherd Dog


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## jmdjack

Perry v. Beilstein and thus Enno v. Beilstein are behind Steffi v. Tiekerhook - the dam of Orry v.h. Antverpa. Perry and Enno are now way back there though.


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