# Breeder warranty



## armauro (May 6, 2008)

How much validity do people put into these agreeements by breeders - obviously they are only as good as the breeder- was given one yesterday by a top usa sl breeder that only gteed hips for 15 months and no health gtees ie what about health issues epi,ibd etc.
When I ? them, their response was I am not the right customer for their kennel since I rely on paper more than their reputation yet their sketchy gteed had lawyers and arbitrators all over the document.
I personally do not need a gtee but when you are charging PREMIUM $$$ for pups- it is inconsistent not to back it up. 
Just my opinion.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

No one plans on breeding bad dogs on purpose. 

When someone breeds lots of litters, goes through the alphabet in a few years, and starts over again multiple times - they are pumping out alot of pups and are going to produce problems....

When priorities are not balanced - when one aspect becomes paramount - then others suffer....in Europe, health guarantees are NOT common - hips are a known risk, and it appears that many breeders will line breed or back mass on a NZ dog and accept that a large proportion of pups will develop HD, but winning in the ring is too high a priority to pass on a breeding pair that they think will give them show ring winners...the European buyers accept risks more readily when buying a puppy I think, and pups are pre checked before a year - bad hipped ones commonly do not get wakened, the buyer shrugs, and buys another pup for E600-800 and does not ask for a replacement (although I believe they are starting to do replacements there) ....Americans are more litigious, and even people looking for a $500 Sunday paper pup have heard enough about HD to ask if the pup is clear of HD...even if they don't know you can't certify with OFA until 2, they know that there is such a thing as a hip cert.

There is a certain amount of risk in buying ANY 8 week old pup from any breeder. Asking why a breeding has been done, what complementary and compensatory factors have been considered, and looking at the hip ratings/percentages in the pedigree are part of being an educated buyer.

Most breeders count on a home not wanting to return a pup when it fails OFA and the guarantee is lip service pretty much.

Lee


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> was given one yesterday by a top usa sl breeder that only gteed hips for 15 months and no health gtees ie what about health issues epi,ibd etc.


You can only do pre-lims but OFA only certifies with two years so the guarantee is pretty much a joke.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> You can only do pre-lims but OFA only certifies with two years so the guarantee is pretty much a joke.


I don't understand your logic. How does OFA certification age make the guarantee a joke?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

BlackthornGSD said:


> I don't understand your logic. How does OFA certification age make the guarantee a joke?


some people may not think about it and just wait till their dog is two years old to get the OFA certification only to realize that their guarantee is gone in the wind because they've been waiting five months too long. 

If you give guarantee you might as well give to two years, when OFA certifies.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I have about three more months in which I can send my dog back for any reason. That's a two year policy written into the contract. The man has a good reputation.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> some people may not think about it and just wait till their dog is two years old to get the OFA certification only to realize that their guarantee is gone in the wind because they've been waiting five months too long.
> 
> If you give guarantee you might as well give to two years, when OFA certifies.


I disagree. I'd like to know before 2 years if the hips look good--both for the sake of my breeding program and for the sake of the dog. If a person wants a certification, they can go with the SV "a" stamp program, which is done after 12 months.

It's very rare for a dog to show hip problems at 24 months that weren't apparent from xrays at 12 months.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

BlackthornGSD said:


> ...........
> It's very rare for a dog to show hip problems at 24 months that weren't apparent from xrays at 12 months.


 
I am of course not a vet, but not true according to the OFA as well as a lot of vets. 

Esp. if the x-ray is the least bit questionable.

They all claim that there is a good risk of the hips and/or elbows getting worse.

Any hip gaurantee of less than 24 months is something that I would really question and if I have to question something about my breeder, they will not be my breeder!

just a thought!


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

armauro said:


> How much validity do people put into these agreeements by breeders - obviously they are only as good as the breeder- was given one yesterday by a top usa sl breeder that only gteed hips for 15 months and no health gtees ie what about health issues epi,ibd etc.
> When I ? them, their response was I am not the right customer for their kennel since I rely on paper more than their reputation yet their sketchy gteed had lawyers and arbitrators all over the document.
> I personally do not need a gtee but when you are charging PREMIUM $$$ for pups- it is inconsistent not to back it up.
> Just my opinion.


I think it really depends on the situation. If you have a good breeder, they are going to stand by their dog regardless of what they put on paper.

The one dog I have with an issue, the breeder has been very supportive well beyond what their written guarantee stated. Would not hesitate in the least to get a dog from them again and to recommend them to others.

With another dog, it was a good old fashioned "hand shake" sort of thing. Maybe it is because I grew up in the country or maybe it is because I am naturally a trusting person, but this is enough for me.

If I were in a situation where I didn't know the breeder at all either personally or by word of mouth reputation, I would be much more concerned about a guarantee.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

All German Shepherd breeders produce dysplastic dogs....I do not know of any breeder in the world that has dogs that will not produce dysplastic dogs. So how can you have a guarantee?????What are you guaranteeing???? The Europeans have this right(that's why by and large they have better dogs), and its another area where many American breeders let emotions cloud reality. People should be breeding for functional hips instead of diagnostic hips, but that's another story unto itself. If the diagnostic scores of the two dogs bred made that much difference, we wouldn't be at 20% HD for the past 30 years....think about it..... instead of regurgitating some statistical junk that hasn't moved the pendulum in past thirty years.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Honestly - I would take reputation and a sound breeding program over a peice of paper any day. A pup is a living breathing critter and genetics is complex. It is not like making a widget or a drug where you put together a set of ingredients, use a six sigma program, and viola! Your defect rate is minscule. 

To me the point of the contract is NOT that it is enforceable in a court of law, but that it clarifies the understanding between two parties. We humans have a way of saying something then the person to whom it was said hears something totally different. Putting it in writing clarifies the agreement.

Even the best put together puppy is a gamble, as are kids, as are any other animal out there. A good breeder stacks the deck and stands behind their dogs and is there to help you get through the bad stuff. What I would want to know is how they track these things and modify their breeding program based on such feedback (And no, I don't mean that if dog x threw one dysplastic pup, they rush right out and spay her-but they may make decisions based on history to NOT use a certain dog)

Most hip warranties I have seen are against CRIPPLING dysplasia anyway not that a dog would pass OFA. I think the ones that are the best there are when a discount or a future puppy is offered. Most people are going to keep the dysplastic puppy and most times it does just fine. Even my severely dysplastic dog may not be the working dog I wanted but has a fine pet life.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> All German Shepherd breeders produce dysplastic dogs....I do not know of any breeder in the world that has dogs that will not produce dysplastic dogs. So how can you have a guarantee?????What are you guaranteeing???? The Europeans have this right(that's why by and large they have better dogs), and its another area where many American breeders let emotions cloud reality. *People should be breeding for functional hips instead of diagnostic hips,* but that's another story unto itself. If the diagnostic scores of the two dogs bred made that much difference, *we wouldn't be at 20% HD for the past 30 years*....think about it..... instead of regurgitating some statistical junk that hasn't moved the pendulum in past thirty years.


Could you explain the bolded statments. Do you mean that the OFA and SV x-raying don't mean anything?

If a dog passes either diagnostic test, are you saying that the dogs that pass are not "functional"?

Second quote - do you mean that 20% of all GSD hips are displastic? I would not have realized that the % is that terribly high number, at least from the small number of dogs that I have seen.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Also, almost all hips are going to get worse as they get older, unless the dog is a couch potato and puts no stress on them. This is a working breed and there are certain developments that happen over time just like with athletes. Having said that, good hips are a necessity in our breed, but perfect hips are not necessary or tend to reproduce themself. Too many variables besides the parents involved....just an alternate opinion along with many europeans.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

The purpose of the hips are to allow the dog to function in his duties for what he was created for. With the breeding of functional hips you have a wider genepool that will keep the functionality of the dog intact. I said nothing about OFA or SV to have to explain anything. If you do not know what functional hips are....how can you question my assertion. If you do know what functional hips are, my statement is pretty straight forward. Hint: SV certifies mildly dysplastic hips....OFA does not....so using the logic I hear on this board is SV a BYB???? Evidently, they think that NZ hips are functional and allow them into the genepool....now I know you don't respect my opinion, but I think SV is probably as knowledgable as anyone on this board. I know a lot of people will not breed to a NZ dog, and that's their perogative....but then why import German dogs that probably have NZ hips in the pedigree???? Either way, I'm in the minority on this one and I'll leave it at that.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

You are not talking about "halbe HD" are you? That is not certified for breeding.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I'm talking about NZ hips....loosely translated into slight or some say mild HD. Or have they eliminated NZ hips, if so I stand corrected and apologize for my false or misleading staements.:blush:


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

you mean "noch zugelassen"? 

They still have that but barely anybody breeds with that anymore. The dog has got to be one heck of a working dog that somebody uses noch zugelassen.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> All German Shepherd breeders produce dysplastic dogs....I do not know of any breeder in the world that has dogs that will not produce dysplastic dogs. So how can you have a guarantee?????What are you guaranteeing???? .


I think that most educated buyers understand this. From a buyer's perspective, if you don't know the breeder and aren't knowledgeable about bloodlines, it is at least an indication that they have made the effort to produce dogs with a lower risk of dysplasia. The guarantee isn't so much about saying that WON'T have dysplasia, but more what the breeder will do if they have dysplasia. Guarantees we looked at when purchasing Bison were things like replacement dog, next dog free, and paying 1/2 cost of surgery if necessary.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

To me at this point those guarantees don't mean much-I really can't imagine myself returning a dog-have seen dogs who have had even moderate dyplasia do well and be able to work-getting a replacement dog or half off another dog-I don't buy dogs that frequently and when I do I don't want to just get a dog because he was 1/2 off


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## armauro (May 6, 2008)

No has even mentioned the other serious health issues which this breeder has excluded-these can be as bad as bad hips- also I have a gsd from a very good breeder who had a normal hips per the SV at one year and at 3 he was seriously dysplastic- he never worked either.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

armauro - this is not a SL slam but you said a "top SL breeder" don't they have to limit the gene pool even more to fix type (e.g. red and black)? And the more inbreeding the more likelihood of genetic diseases. 

It is already bad that most modern breeds like the GSD suffer from starting out with a small foundation stock and a closed stub book, no? I read an article written by a SIBE fellow once that said you need a foundation stock of at least 75 dogs to ensure enough diversity for health and that we need to be more focused on what we need a breed to do [basic view] and less on a narrow window of physical characteristics. Not sure what the experts think of that article but I do know genetic diversity is strenght and anytime you limit a gene pool problems start getting pulled forward, particularly if they are due to doubling up on recessive genes.


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## armauro (May 6, 2008)

Also the real irony is that the breeder wants $4k for a pup-Quality? -$ does not equal quality- then why not back it up with a strong gtee- any disputes go through a law firm- imagine that-talking aabout covering your ass.
His claim is if you can not trust me I do not think we should do business yet he has aall the legalize in his document-


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

If your talking about whom I think your talking about, I already gave you my opinion on him 

If I were going to pay 4 grand for a puppy, that puppy better spit quarters and that guarantee better cover alot and that breeder better stand behind it.

I'm not that "into" guarantees, sure it's nice to have one, but it's never been about a guarantee for me. Puppies are such a you know what shoot, I don't think anyone can predict the future when it comes to health. 

I'm more interested in the background of the dogs and the honesty of the breeder to tell it to me straight. 

Armauro, got your message, just haven't had a second to ring you back


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Mrs. K,
I analyze a lot of pedigrees and I still see NZ dogs in them. My only point is that it is an acceptable rating for breeding for SV. I would think they have a good understanding of the pros and cons of a NZ rating, and if the cons outweighed the pros then they would eliminate it from being acceptable. They haven't at this point, and the functionality of the breed remains higher there than here....so unless those people in SV are clueless, I figure they have NZ acceptable for a reason. If working function is important in your breeding scheme, then the genetic expansion is necessary, to offset breeding superior hips in a closed enviroment, thus increasing mental and physical health problems. 
I'm the one who constantly preaches there should be no lines, no working, no show, no Czech, no DDR. Many of the "experts" here think I take that position because I am mean and don't like "certain" lines. I'm infringing on what they "like". The reality is that these lines are a double whammy when it comes to genetic diversity and combating things like HD. To stay within your line for so long extremely narrows the genepool.To only use OFA good and excellent ALSO narrows the genepool. So to my way of thinking we are twice restricting the genepool so that at some point the gains resulting from only Good hips to good hips will be eliminated by the increase in health/mental health issues; and the strengthening of the NEGATIVE recessive genepools of only Black and Red to Black and Red, or Lance to Lance, or DDR to DDR, or z PS(Czech) to z PS. If my thinking is correct, these lines will get to a certain point that the hips won't become better statistically and actually stay stagnant or decline, AND the temperaments will suffer, the chronic health issues (epi,mega,bloat,skin, allergies,HD) will increase signicantly, but we have our almighty type or lines intact with the prevailing elitest attitudes associated with them that each is better than the other. Of course we haven't seen this occur so all this malarkey Cliff is spouting is purely hypothectical.
So that is why I think functionality has to be the barometer for judging hips for the overall health of the breed. Now this may not resonate with most out there, because it would require a change in thinking and practices. 
One last thing, probably the two best programs in past 40 years for hips were Sweden and DDR just before the curtain came down. If you would look at the DDR dogs of the 70's and 80's, you will find that sable or black and tan dogs could win in the showring, sable or black and tan dogs were in their top working trials. So here we have the dogs not being bred by color in show ring and in working ring and the hips statistics were very strong...the same with the dogs in Sweden, you see much more genetic diversity in Swedish dog than basic European. If you look at their pedigrees in general you will often find a mixture of show and working lines (but they weren't separated then) in their dogs and has been for many many years. Some of you may see a connection...others may think Cliff is off on tangents again....its rough being ole fashioned!!


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## FredD (Jul 5, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> All German Shepherd breeders produce dysplastic dogs....I do not know of any breeder in the world that has dogs that will not produce dysplastic dogs. So how can you have a guarantee?????What are you guaranteeing???? The Europeans have this right(that's why by and large they have better dogs), and its another area where many American breeders let emotions cloud reality. People should be breeding for functional hips instead of diagnostic hips, but that's another story unto itself. If the diagnostic scores of the two dogs bred made that much difference, we wouldn't be at 20% HD for the past 30 years....think about it..... instead of regurgitating some statistical junk that hasn't moved the pendulum in past thirty years.


:thumbup: Very well put, Cliff


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

I also agree with Cliff.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Cliff - as usual - we are on the same tangent.....is HD up to 20% rather than 17% ??? 

I think you have to look at the whole pedigree for hips, not just the first couple generations or parents...many of the pedigrees I have looked at in SL when I know of an individual reported with bad hips, are linebred or backmassed on Jeck Noricom - so you are bringing in his sire's hips - from memory, I think was NZ (can't spend alot of time looking up peds right now).. this is similar to the Grim z PS situation ....

Going straight DDR brings it's own set of issues...and most DDR dogs sold today in the US are bottlenecked as well, and if you want to train, be prepared for the long haul and alot of frustration, they do not fit the current theories in training or the fashion on the field...

Combining type - Czech, WGR WL, DDR, Belgian - judiciously, to balance strengths and needs, without overemphasing any one trait, is rare among breeders, because then they do not fit into a market niche!

Lee


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Lee, I definitely feel ya. You notice I don't say DDR lines of today but refer back to pre curtain days. You are also right about much more emphasis should be placed on the hips of the three generations of parents, and the linebreeding tendencies of the dogs in those three generations than the actual parents themselves. You gave two great examples in Jeck and Grim, which because of what you said, should probably never be linebred on closely.(I know because I linebred 3-4 on Grim and 2-3 on Xero his son and got a couple of disaster hips) I was advised beforehand by a couple oldtimers, but the thought of the working abilitiy was too much, anyway WON'T make that mistake again) Both parents had normal hips!
Anyway, this is why I try to draw out intelligent dialogue about the bloodlines and their functional history. In order for you to make the kind of decisions we make Lee, you have to know the pros and cons about the 8 to 16 dogs in the first three generations. Some of the breeders today don't know squat about anything but the dogs in their yard and the testing they did on them. Puts them at a great disadvantage, especially with hips.....but when you try to encourage dialogue about these traits and dogs, people get defensive, usually because they don't know this information; so they want to minimize its importance so they can still be "reputable" breeders with warranties that don't mean anything. 
I'm not against warranties for those that like them, but realize their practical use and don't judge others by them because they are more superficial than actual warranty. Many people feel hurt and disillusioned because they buy from a reputable breeder with warranty and they think they are protected and boom the hips come back defective and they are crushed. I tell people the cold blooded practicality in the first place so hopes are not created to be dashed later...I know, I'm not warm and feely enough for some....this isn't a warm and feely business(breeding)....its genetics and stock whether we like it or not.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

What people fail to think about is that there is NO guarantee - only a warrenty (my contract says this BTW) of what the breeder will do if xyz happens.

No one can guarantee or even warranty against everything. There is a risk in buying any puppy from any breeder - wierd stuff can pop up from 10 generations back (dwarfs for example!!). The buyer needs to educate himself, not just believing the Ford dealer knocking Chevys, but to realize that things happen and assume part of that risk when deciding to buy rather than laying the full responsibility on a breeder to produce perfection in every single puppy.

Unfortunately there are breeders ignoring that their dogs family is heavily producing EPI, IBD, SIBO, or a history of their stud dog producing any problem or blaming the male when they breed a female who produces same...and continuing to breed because of show or trial placements. Or just plain kennel blindness.


I applaud you for your objectivity Cliff - others would NEVER admit to producing a litter with disastrous hips and pinpoint the cause...just ignore it, excuse it or sweep it under the rug.

Lee


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Thanks Lee, we all make mistakes, the object is to not make the same mistake over and over, and to become as knowledgable as possible about the realities of the breed, and then you have good chances of consistently "getting those perfect" dogs as one poster sarcastically put it.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

codmaster said:


> I am of course not a vet, but not true according to the OFA as well as a lot of vets.
> 
> Esp. if the x-ray is the least bit questionable.
> 
> ...


I believe that OFA's own statistic is something like 96% of dogs will have the same rating at 2 years. If the hips are borderline, then of course there will be more change--for better or worse--a year later. Hmm... let me see if I can find it....

Here's the info from their site:

_A recent publication* compared the reliability of the preliminary evaluation hip grade phenotype with the 2 year old evaluation in dogs and there was 100% reliability for a preliminary grade of excellent being normal at 2 years of age (excellent, good, or fair). There was 97.9% reliability for a preliminary grade of good being normal at 2 years of age, and 76.9% reliability for a preliminary grade of fair being normal at 2 years of age. Reliability of preliminary evaluations increased as age at the time of preliminary evaluation increased, regardless of whether dogs received a preliminary evaluation of normal hip conformation or HD. For normal hip conformations, the reliability was 89.6% at 3-6 months, 93.8% at 7-12 months, and 95.2% at 13-18 months. These results suggest that preliminary evaluations of hip joint status in dogs are generally reliable. However, dogs that receive a preliminary evaluation of fair or mild hip joint conformation should be reevaluated at an older age (24 months)._

Orthopedic Foundation for Animals: Hip Dysplasia


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> All German Shepherd breeders produce dysplastic dogs....I do not know of any breeder in the world that has dogs that will not produce dysplastic dogs. So how can you have a guarantee?????What are you guaranteeing???? The Europeans have this right(that's why by and large they have better dogs), and its another area where many American breeders let emotions cloud reality. People should be breeding for functional hips instead of diagnostic hips, but that's another story unto itself. If the diagnostic scores of the two dogs bred made that much difference, we wouldn't be at 20% HD for the past 30 years....think about it..... instead of regurgitating some statistical junk that hasn't moved the pendulum in past thirty years.


The 20% rating just seems off to me--simply put, 20% of the dogs I know are not dysplastic. Not 20% of the puppies I produce, nor 20% of those I regularly encounter--so what is the difference? How can my statistics, how can general experience be that far off from OFA?

I did some research a few months ago about the "a" stamp--how many of the dogs xrayed in Germany are dysplastic. It's a bit tricky b/c we're not really comparing apples to apples when looking at OFA vs a stamp, but the info I found was that 98% of all xrays reviewed by the SV are given a rating that is approved for breeding--a1, a2, or a3 (which equal "a" normal, "a" fast normal, and NZ). 

That is an improvement over the last 40 years from something like 20% not passing to 2% not passing. They are doing something right. (And the "a" stamp program requires all x-rays to be sent in.)

Christine


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

One of my concerns with PennHip is that I don't necessarily trust that their analysis identifies dogs that WILL have problems.

There was a recent article that was a big fuss a few months ago, done by PennHip sponsored researchers. They found that when they examined dogs who had OFA ratings, they identified many dogs that passed OFA, even with OFA Excellent, as not having acceptable hips.

My question was--how many of the dogs identified as problematic by PennHip actually went on to develop problems when the dog was a mature adult (say 6 years or older).

I asked this question of both PennHip and OFFA, via email. PennHipp did not reply, but I got a reply from OFFA that said:

Internal review of such data indicates that less than 5% of initial OFA normals fail on later hip re-evaluation. Most that do fail received an initial OFA fair hip status.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Christine, first you are a breeder that evaluates all the different aspects of the dogs and bloodlines when breeding. You have vast knowledge of lines that are succeptible to bad hips and are hip improvers. Think of the many many thousands of breeders of German Shepherds. Do you think the majority of these breeders are like yourself???? So I don't think you are a sample representative of the norm. Two, how many people do prelims and see something bad and never pursue the hip thing from that point. Don't you think that skews the figures. Third, how many people are not x-raying their stock at all....frankly the people who send in to check their dog's hips are the people who are usually breeders or performers. Average Joe Public just raises their dogs without X-rays. Also, 75% of German's dogs are WGSL....there have been issues for years about the decline in hips and the ability to get good hips when needed.
Either way, I see the hip situation as being the same as its been for past thirty years.
One last thing, regardless of the actual figures, my point is the goal should be functional hips. The hips are important to the dog for functioning in what the dog was made for....if the breed becomes a breed that couch potato is what people breed for...then over time the hips will decrease because the need for good hips to lounge around is not that high.JMO


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

As for the warranty thing in general....I personally look for a breeder that knows their dogs and I look at what the breeder is already producing. Any moron can buy two OFA Excellent or a1 imports and start pumping puppies with a hip "guarantee". So frickin what. If I had any reason to believe my puppy might turn out with health problems I am not willing to deal with, I'll move on to another breeder not look for some extensive "guarantee" which after all applies to a living creature whose genetics we do not fully understand. Yes I would buy a good dog without any guarantee/warranty. I do not care to support "breeders" that only breed based on papers (titles, hip certs....). I will buy a dog out of two OFA fair parents from a breeder that understands what they are producing sooner than a breeder simply advertising OFA excellent dogs. So far of the dogs I have purchased, the warranty/guarantee has not effected my purchases. It's my job to find a breeder who understands their lines and can offer what I am looking for; you can't just pay more for a "guarantee" and expect the work to be done for you.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

BlackthornGSD said:


> I believe that OFA's own statistic is something like 96% of dogs will have the same rating at 2 years. If the hips are borderline, then of course there will be more change--for better or worse--a year later. Hmm... let me see if I can find it....
> 
> Here's the info from their site:
> 
> ...


Just curious - are you a GSD breeder?

Statistics can often be used to support opposing views as I am sure that you are aware.

Are you saying that x-rays are not needed at all? Or that ones taken at 6 mos. would be sufficient to screen out bad hipped dogs?

And that the OFA vets are, if not wrong, at least way too conservative?


Would anyone know of any studies that were done to see if only OFA certified dogs were bred to other OFA certified dogs - does the incidence of HD lessen after some generations?

Many breeders that I know would occasionally slip in one or two non OFA certified dogs "because they have so many other great qualities!".


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

not christine, but if you click into her link you will see she has some fantastic dogs and does breed


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't think any of the parents of my two purchased dogs have been OFAd. They are all German so why would they be OFAd? One dog is OFA Good, other dog is only 10 months but had some of the best prelims we'd ever seen. Good hip structure IS important to me as a buyer. I x-ray my dogs at 6-7 months for starters.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

codmaster said:


> Just curious - are you a GSD breeder?
> 
> Statistics can often be used to support opposing views as I am sure that you are aware.
> 
> ...


By no means am I saying that xrays are not needed. I do think that x-raying at 12 months is informative for puppy buyers as far as a guarantee. I don't like xrays at 6 months, personally, I'd prefer to see the dog closer to 12 months so that, at the least, the joints have finished ossifying. Almost always, if you have a puppy that has nice looking hips at 12 months, they are going to look nice later in life. So, I think that that age is a good time for evaluation for contract purposes. An xray at that age also gives valuable feedback on how the parents of that dog are producing--so that a breeder can adjust future breeding plans as appropriate.

The point of my post, though, was that it's important to know that are tests are meaningful. Do they accurately predict functional hips? Do they accurately predict whether that dog will suffer pain in, say, the first 10 years of its life from problems with the hip joints?

The next question, however, is whether this test has any relevance to whether the _children_ of that dog will have any problems with their hips. 

I xray all of my own dogs at 24+ months for OFA; I don't re-xray dogs I import if they already have a decent xray evaluation (but I would require new xrays before buying a dog with NZ hips, for example). _*Every *_dog I've bred has had xrays done for itself and for every dog in its past 5-10 generations--if your breeding stock is from Europe, this is the default, not the exception.

Unfortunately no one has solid info on what years of breeding OFA'd dogs to OFA'd dogs will produce, but I think it would be a positive result, just as I believe it has had in Europe. But... we don't know.


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