# Information on this GSD?



## autigersfanjc (Dec 30, 2008)

Hi,

I got him when he was 10 mos. He is a rescue dog. No health problems, He has a clean bill of health. He loves to work. He has had training by ME. None prior to that. The guy i got him from stated that a family had called him and told him that he got too big for them and they wanted him gone. So he rescued the dog and cared for him since he was 6 months. Then i come along and the rest is history.

Like i stated already. Training has been done by me. I have introducd him to the sleeve already (With helper) and he will take it. 

Problem is; He has NO papers atall. I have no information on his pedigree, so i can't say much about him other than for the fact that is he is a stunning well built bi-colored male. He is very territorial but at the same time is sweet as can be with children.

Whats your opinions on him? Any rough guess's on what lines he could be possibly from? Any opinions are welcomed and appreciated.

Here is some pictures of him:





































Thanks

Jason


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

...some sort of german working lines. however, he's not a bi color. he's a blanket back









great head & great expression!


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## autigersfanjc (Dec 30, 2008)

Oh sorry, i was told by a few he was Bi colored. Thanks for clearing that up.

Jason


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

how old is he now? his body looks like it still has some maturing to do.


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## AnnaRiley (Feb 14, 2008)

I'm no expert on this subject. All I can say is he surely is handsome.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Bi-color looks more like this:


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## jake (Sep 11, 2004)

Your dog could be body double for my rescue.Mine is high drive -over standaerd height almost 29 inches at withers and has the big ears like yours.A schuthund trainer from Germany told me Jake was most likely west german working line out-crossed with american working line (american because of big ears-working cause not greatly down in rear) Not sure what that means exactly but if you want a high energy -smart sometimes PIA maybe you got one.will emphasize smart high-energy gotta keep him busy.


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## autigersfanjc (Dec 30, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Camerafodderhow old is he now? his body looks like it still has some maturing to do.


He is currently 1yr 9 mos. Those photos were taken when he was around 11-12 mos of age.

Thanks for the compliments!

Jason


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## rokanhaus (Mar 20, 2006)

http://www.vonlightgermanshepherds.us/

is this you????....these dogs look an awfully lot like yours....


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Good call, Kandi. It's either the same dog or a littermate with the same parents.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubb...true#Post930223


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:We breed non registered (non AKC/CKC) and registered pups WITH AKC/CKC papers


WHY DO YOU BREED NON-REGISTERED DOGS?! What in the world is the point of that? You got a dog that was essentially a rescue, NO history on family, and you're using him as a STUD?!









Sorry mods, this just boiled my blood.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: SunCzarinaGood call, Kandi. It's either the same dog or a littermate with the same parents.


The site has the same photos as posted above so I'd say that it is the same dog.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

I was trying to be nice then I found the litter with the 21 month old rescue as the stud. Repeat litter with the same bitch. Did I mention they're $325. Again, I gotta shuddup and go put my cookies in a jar before my stock coated, well documented east german puppy eats them off the counter.


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## GSD_Love (Jun 22, 2008)

I agree with you 100% Diana! There is no reason to be breeding non-registered GSD's can never be AKC certified, who have no notation of their lines, etc. I'm sorry, TOO MANY German Shepherds die each day in shelters due the over-breeding like that!







Sorry as well mods! Just doesn't make sense to me!


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Well, autigersfanjc? I'd LOVE to find out how you could possibly justify breeding this dog when you don't know a thing about it. Heck, you don't even know if he's PURE. You don't even know the difference between the "bicolor" and "black and tan" color designations and yet you're breeding?


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Diana, he's working on his website







moving pictures and what not around.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

I wonder what his long hair's breeder would think of all this? The guy who gave him an unlimited registration on a coatie (that smelled odd to me too) 



> Quote:
> http://www.vonwaldberggermanshepherds.com - Owner Phil Skoog out of WA.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I would not breed a dog with an unknown background/genetics, even if he was the best Schutzhund dog in the world.
Anyway don't they need to be two years old to OFA?


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## GSD_Love (Jun 22, 2008)

I was thinking the same thing! There is no proof that dog is purebred! Does he look it? Yes but, that does not mean he is! I would love to understand how breeding this dog is justified! Makes no sense! No sense at all!


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

No it doesn't make any sense. The female on the repeat litter looks very young also.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u166/auralythic/Bath%20Day%201-10-09/stronghead.jpg

Hey, mine looks purebred! If he had his "package," I could breed a bunch of "unpapered dogs for companion purposes." HAH.

What if this RESCUE dog actually was a mix? Oh well, no matter, he's already being bred before health clearances and at a young age AND he's a rescue, an owner-dump. What does it matter that he's missing papers? He's on a roll already.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

The dog hasn't even filled out yet, and tail is still caried high. This dog looks younger than is suggested. Just my sense from the pics.


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## GSD_Love (Jun 22, 2008)

LOL. You're so right Diana! That couldn't be more true! Just because a dog looks like GSD doesn't mean it should be bred. It definitely doesn't mean it's a bad dog just isnt a better addition to the breed in general... The site only gets better as well...


> Quote: We don't hide nothing and want nothing more to make sure your are happy with your new puppy. We are a breeding kennel that CARES about all of our dogs. We spend a great deal of time researching diet/nutrition as well as breeding information and new acquisitions to our kennel to ensure that we bring out the best in our pups/dogs. We are not in this just to make dollars but to spread the joy and offer this wonderful breed to people at AFFORDABLE prices.


 My personal favorite yet! Improper grammar & they're NOT in it for the money...although they're dog's aren't certifed, papered etc. Once again sorry Mods!


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Hey Patti, he could be a husky mix seeing how he carries his tail high. He has no papers, who knows.

He could be young, but he does remind me of some dogs I've seen out of Belgian and Dutch lines. Or maybe he's a malinois mix. If he had the papers, he'd know!


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: DianaMhttp://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u166/auralythic/Bath Day 1-10-09/stronghead.jpg
> 
> Hey, mine looks purebred! If he had his "package," I could breed a bunch of "unpapered dogs for companion purposes." HAH.


Hey Diana I have a female for you to breed him with when you figure out how to get around that little obstacle:
http://www.chicagocanine.com/photos/daphne/blackie4mo.jpg 

Looks purebred enough, don't you think?


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Perfect! Why did I ever get my money tree neutered!?


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

To the OP: we are an EXTREMELY passionate bunch when it comes to our beloved breed. You've basically committed a cardinal sin against responsible breeding and responsible rescuing by breeding a YOUNG, UNPAPERED, UNREGISTERED RESCUE. You truly are everything good breeders and good rescues work to prevent. You'd do well to listen and pay attention to learn how to be an ASSET to the breed, because right now we all see you as a major liability to the breed. Your posts show that you have come here to learn and I SINCERELY hope, for your sake and for the sake of the dogs you produce, that you are learning and you will reconsider your breeding program. As it stands now, you can be classified as a puppy mill. Do you really want to have that sort of negative impact on a breed you enjoy?

(It's worth saying here as well since it applies to this dog)


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Choke, gag
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/classifieds/64910.html


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)




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## autigersfanjc (Dec 30, 2008)

lol, you ppl are crazy. Backyard breeders, dont have websites, Backyard breeders, feed their dogs something from Big Lots (Walt Disney's Old Yeller Dry Dog Food) Backyard breeders do not train their dogs. Backyard breeders do not socialize their dogs, Backyard Breeders leave their dogs out in the cold to fend for themselves, cold, muddy, rain, ya know?

Backyard breeders do not take their dogs to vets, Backyard Breeders DO NOT have no knowledge about the breed. Backyard breeders do not waste their time on here getting bashed by so call "know it alls" in their own little cliques. Sorry.

Backyard Breeders dont care who they sell too.

Backyard Breeders have their dogs listed in the local paper for $100 or less. Backyard Breeders do not research the breed.

All of these things do not represent me. In THE LEAST!

Um yea, the postives out weigh the negatives here folks. SORRY!!


I could go on and on but why? I don't give a darn who bashes me on here. I really don't. Fact is my dogs, All of my dogs, HAVE training, many hours of it. All my dogs are wonderful around kids. All of my dogs are social, yet serious when need be.

All of my dogs are on a premium diet. All my dogs are on nutritional supplements. Vitamins and Joint supps.

All of my dogs have routine vet check-ups.

All of my dogs LIVE in the house. Not some run down run of the mill kennel.

ALL of my dogs are a TOP priority of mine.

ALL of my dogs are part of the family.

ALL of my dogs have a TOP quality LIFE and NO EXCEPTION TO THAT.

Excuse me but some of you need to untwirl your little panties and relax and look at the facts rather than the fact i have bred un-registered pups. Big DEAL. You know there is alot of people out there, that doesnt CARE about Schutzund, OR care if the dog has a1 ceritfied OFA hips. IT DONT MATTER TO THEM. The only thing they want is a nice quality German Shepherd that can be an excellent companion and protector to them and their familys. And something that isn't going to empty their bank accounts by buying.

People have options. I actually encourage them to look around before they buy. But in the end they come to me? Why? Because i breed what i state and that is quality.

You guys need to realize that what you expect a breeder to be is not what someone else may expect them to be. I can offer both worlds. Some ppl want something nice and affordable, thats all. Im glad im one of the few that can offer people nice dogs. 

I tell my customers there is no gaurantee's on the pup(s). I don't keep nothing hid.

$300 is all i ask for my un-registered dogs. Can you really say im in it for the money? Can you honestly say that? i think not! Especially when all the supplies, vet trips and other misc. things that are provided for the dogs/pups outweigh my profit on these dogs by a large number. Hmmmm Common sense ppl!

Sorry if i offended anyone here. But these are facts. Im not covering anything up.

Post what you want. It is not going to hurt me what so ever. I simply don't care. What i do care about is my dogs and the fact that i sell dogs that make ppl happy.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: autigersfanjc.
> 
> ..........I simply don't care........


Obviously!


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:All of these things do not represent me. In THE LEAST!


Perhaps not, but there's more than one way to be a backyard breeder and breeding a RESCUE dog and dogs with NO hip clearances sure takes the cake. People buy from you because they are IGNORANT. Once they come across a good breeder or a fancier willing to educate, they'll learn and they too will call you "that backyard breeder we bought from before we knew any better."


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## autigersfanjc (Dec 30, 2008)

Is that all you guys got? You have nothing on me. Not 1 customer complaint. Up front and honest with my customers. The yget what they pay for. Like said, and Boo hooCRY ME a friggin' River. Some ppl just dont have thousands of dollars to buy a dog.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote: Some ppl want something nice and affordable, thats all.


If that's all they can afford, do you seriously think they can afford to PROPERLY care for YOUR puppy that you've produced? Many people who cannot spend anything else higher than your puppy prices on a dog cannot afford to feed them properly, vet them properly, nor care for them properly. There's a fair chance that your puppies could end up in tomorrow's Craigslist, free to good home because "I can't pay for its vet bills anymore."


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:Some ppl just dont have thousands of dollars to buy a dog.


If someone cannot afford $1200 on a puppy, how do you think they're going to afford a several thousand dollar surgery for bad hips or an accidental ingestion of a piece of a toy?

I don't think anyone else here is going to help you find a dog. We all know that that longcoat's going to be bred if it hasn't already.


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## autigersfanjc (Dec 30, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: DianaM
> 
> 
> > Quote: Some ppl want something nice and affordable, thats all.
> ...


I don't sell my puppies to wanna be thugs that is high on drugs constantly and that is totally clueless about the breed. 

I sell my puppies to good honest hard working people that just dont have the income means to afford a high priced dog. I carefully screen the people i sell them too. Like i stated most of these people know about the breed and that it commonly develops HD. So there is some knowledge in these people before they buy.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

choke, puke, uhg.

Training, what titles do they have? 

Royal Canin isn't premium food.

Ethical breeders do not breed unregistered rescue dogs. 

You are definitely a BYB. 

ANYONE CAN PUT TOGETHER A WEBSITE.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:ANYONE CAN PUT TOGETHER A WEBSITE.


Amen, Sue. Some of the nicest websites come from some of the biggest breeders to avoid.



> Quote:I sell my puppies to good honest hard working people that just dont have the income means to afford a high priced dog. I carefully screen the people i sell them too. Like i stated most of these people know about the breed and that it commonly develops HD. So there is some knowledge in these people before they buy.


Good grief.... is this guy for real? Please tell me he's actually a troll..


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

BAER? CERF? VWD? ED?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

HD??? is that all we are worried about? 

Kind of tough when the breeder thinks his longcoat black and tan dog is a bi-color with a plush coat. That is a breeder who can guage the knowledge base of would be purchasers.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

I wonder if this backyard breeder knows about EPI? Spondylosis? Hemangiosarcoma? Megaesophagus? 

Well the buyers know this breed's prone to hip problems so that's good enough. No guarantees, so it's basically, "Give me your money, here's your pup, have a nice life, good luck with your pup."



> Quote:Kind of tough when the breeder thinks his longcoat black and tan dog is a bi-color with a plush coat.


Actually, he thought his RESCUE "stud" was a bicolor when it's clearly a blanket black and tan (and possibly a mutt, who knows, no papers) and he didn't know if his longcoat was a plush or not, nor does he know if it's breedable. I don't think he'd care either way, honestly.


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## autigersfanjc (Dec 30, 2008)

Diana, i don't care if anyone wants to help me or not. If they want to base their decision on whether or not they want to help me on the silly fact that i sell un-registered dogs, well i wouldn't want their help anyways.

At the time of purchase, i inform the customers the dangers of HD and why it is soo important to keep the dog on a premium diet to ensure longevity.

Each pup/owner is given a Royal Canin puppy kit as well as a guide to help transition the purchase over.

Obviously, if you keep your dog on a nice diet, you reduce your chances of having to go to a vet. You should know that.

Ahh .. What about accidents? ya say .... Hmm well, they are un-preventable (well atleast some is) but circumstances happen to us all. No matter if the dog is Sch.3 titled valued at $30,000.00 or it is just a $300 back yard dog (LOL) like mine. If your dog jumps the fence for that ball you just threw and gets nailed by a car passing by - well i guess the only difference here is, who has the money to afford the vet bill? The person who has the $300 dog or the $30,000.00 Sch. dog. Now hmm ..go figure. Sometimes people can't help the situation their in. This doesn't mean they don't love the dog or that they do no want to provide care for it, just the fact they are helpless in the matter. I know alot of people that would disagree with you in a heartbeat. ALOT of people.

So get off my case and go chit-chat with your little clique about me.

Im tired of rambling.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

"I just want a nice pet, I don't need a show dog." It worked out so well for them...

Maybe you do not fit the definition of a "backyard breeder" to the letter but neither are you a responsible/ethical breeder. Here is a definition of that for you:
http://www.angelfire.com/nj2/training1/ethics.html 



> Quote: *The ethical breeder's main desire is to better the breed. They breed for the love of the dogs and because they want to see the breed flourish in the future. That means they only breed those dogs that have traits of value to the breed to pass on to progeny. Each generation should be at least as good as the previous, and ideally it should be better.
> 
> *The ethical breeder carefully screens all breeding stock for health problems, and has proof of absence of problems from recognized dog health registries. Health concerns vary from breed to breed, and recommended health tests will therefore vary (this is why it is extremely important for a prospective buyer to be aware of the health concerns related to their breed of choice, so that they know what health tests to ask about when interviewing breeders).


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## autigersfanjc (Dec 30, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: selzerHD??? is that all we are worried about?
> 
> Kind of tough when the breeder thinks his longcoat black and tan dog is a bi-color with a plush coat. That is a breeder who can guage the knowledge base of would be purchasers.


You, show me where isaid my long was a bi-color. Oh wait, you can't!


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:At the time of purchase, i inform the customers the dangers of HD and why it is soo important to keep the dog on a premium diet to ensure longevity.
> 
> Each pup/owner is given a Royal Canin puppy kit as well as a guide to help transition the purchase over.
> 
> Obviously, if you keep your dog on a nice diet, you reduce your chances of having to go to a vet. You should know that.


You've still got a lot to learn about this breed. A *LOT*. Here's one tidbit for you: some GSDs have such wonky digestive tracts that they CANNOT live on high quality food. Have you thought of that? Again, do you know what EPI is?


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## autigersfanjc (Dec 30, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: DianaM
> 
> 
> > Quote:At the time of purchase, i inform the customers the dangers of HD and why it is soo important to keep the dog on a premium diet to ensure longevity.
> ...


Well, hmm my dogs and pups seem to do wonderful on it. So im doing something right. Royal Canin bashers, plugh! Come on! thats highly debated folks. And before you start with the Raw Diet stuff, just so you know i do feed it to them ocassionally. But RC is their primary food. And yes, Diana i do know what EPI is. I also know what ENS is too! wow im good! nah just know the basics ... I have had my LC since 8 weeks and my other male for about a yr now and have only taken them to the vet once for their rabies vacs. No health problems what so ever with the diet i have them on currently. Less shedding, shiny coats (bling bling factor) loads of energy. Yea bad diet alright ...


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)




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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

I hear you, Tracy, except my popcorn bag is filled with Tylenol.









So autigersfanjc... do you sell your unpedigreed mixed breed puppies on full registration so we can have more unpedigreed, non-health-cleared, mixed breed puppies breeding and producing more of the same?

ETA: Somebody PLEASE start another e-collar thread; we need to talk about something relaxing!


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: DianaMI hear you, Tracy, except my popcorn bag is filled with Tylenol.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: autigersfanjcthe silly fact that i sell un-registered dogs, well i wouldn't want their help anyways.


wow. just wow.

Pass the popcorn.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: autigersfanjc I have had my LC since 8 weeks and my other male for about a yr now and have only taken them to the vet once for their rabies vacs.


Ah, so I take that to mean you didn't have your dogs tested for Brucellosis or any genetic diseases before breeding either?


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: SunCzarina
> Pass the popcorn.


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## Baby Byron (Aug 20, 2002)

> Originally Posted By: autigersfanjcHi,
> 
> I have no information on his pedigree, so i can't say much about him other than for the fact that is he is a stunning well built bi-colored male. He is very territorial but at the same time is sweet as can be with children.


Please, refer to your own first post before calling one of us "idiot". I'm sorry but I don't think you belong here anyhow with that attitude of yours...


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Baby Byron!


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: autigersfanjc
> 
> Like i stated most of these people know about the breed and that it commonly develops HD. So there is some knowledge in these people before they buy.


 Point #1- HD would not be so darn COMMON if more breeders were responsible FOR WHAT THEY ARE BREEDING...the majority of HD came about because of more concern over profit than breeding dogs with sound hips! So you have a nice dog BFD! Do you have ANY IDEA HOW MANY SUPER NICE DOGS ARE EUTHANIZED EVERY SECOND? SOME OF THESE DOGS HAVE PEDIGREES AND GOOD ONES SOME OF THESE DOGS ARE FORMER WORKING DOGS! SADLY there are more dogs than there are good homes and your just adding to the problem. 

Point #2-Must not be much knowledge if they believe that HD is standard when getting a GSD. 

I guess this is probably a pretty stupid question for you..but do you care that bi-lateral elbow surgery for my 6 month old rescue from a back yard breeder that "claimed" he loved his dogs and cared about the puppies he produced cost me over $6,000? Do you care that hip replacement costs exceed $12,000?


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:but do you care that bi-lateral elbow surgery for my 6 month old rescue from a back yard breeder that "claimed" he loved his dogs and cared about the puppies he produced cost me over $6,000? Do you care that hip replacement costs exceed $12,000


Why should he care? He warns the owners that GSDs can get HD, takes their money and sends them on their way with a mutt puppy.

On a serious note, I'm sorry to hear that your young rescue had to have all that surgery.


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: DianaM
> ETA: Somebody PLEASE start another e-collar thread; we need to talk about something relaxing!


Darn you Diana! You just made me choke on ice cream.......


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## khurley (Sep 25, 2004)

> Quote: All of my dogs, HAVE training, many hours of it. All my dogs are wonderful around kids. All of my dogs are social, yet serious when need be.
> 
> All of my dogs are on a premium diet. All my dogs are on nutritional supplements. Vitamins and Joint supps.
> 
> ...


So are my rescue dogs.....I would still never consider breeding them and, if I did, I would definitely be a BYB.

I understand that you feel attacked, I also understand that you probably love your dogs very much and don't understand what you've done that is so wrong. However, keep in mind that it is never too late to learn something new.

Breeding dogs with no knowledge of their backgrounds, breeding and no OFAs is very irresponsible. The German Shepherd Breed has become beset with health and behavioral issues. Some of it is due to unethical people who only care about making a buck, but much of it is due to well-intentioned dog owners who thought they would be doing the world a favor by breeding their unregistered, untested dogs.

There's a reason behind these expectations and it is to protect the breed. There are plenty of inexpensive purebred GSDs in rescues and dying in shelters, there's really no need for you to provide this service at the detriment to the breed.


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

That was 18 months ago and he recovered almost 95%...vet gave him best 50/50! He does agility and jumping now...WITH VET CLEARANCE! Since then, my first GSD rescue bloated and almost died........wonder if our BYB studied about bloat....I got a discount on that surgery...it ended up only costing $4,000


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

ONLY $4000.... goodness... With those numbers you tossed out, I'm about ready to wrap Renji in bubblewrap!



> Quote:He does agility and jumping now...WITH VET CLEARANCE!


FANTASTIC!







Talk about a successful surgery.


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

Yeah..I am known as dog poor LOL Thank GOD for CareCredit and 2 jobs







Now I am dog poor and have holes in may wall (thank you mega wubba LOL)


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: DianaMONLY $4000.... goodness... With those numbers you tossed out, I'm about ready to wrap Renji in bubblewrap!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


While not a good photo Diana, here is one of Sniper shortly after he learned to jump. Oh, and OP...Sniper IS a bi-color GSD.










Sadly, putting Sniper in bubblewrap would not have helped him....he is the product of bad breeding







You know the type....never had Sire and Dam OFA'd or even x-rayed. More in it for the few pieces of silver in the pocket instead of honest concern for the breed. Also sad is the fact that Sniper's brother from the same litter had the same bi-lateral surgery at almost the same age.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

He looks beautiful... what a jumper! 



> Quote:You know the type....never had Sire and Dam OFA'd or even x-rayed.


Yeah, like the type who started this thread...


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: autigersfanjc. Less shedding, shiny coats (bling bling factor)


The bling bling about does it for me. Isn't bling out of fashion?


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: TracieThat was 18 months ago and he recovered almost 95%...vet gave him best 50/50! He does agility and jumping now...WITH VET CLEARANCE! Since then, my first GSD rescue bloated and almost died........wonder if our BYB studied about bloat....I got a discount on that surgery...it ended up only costing $4,000


Wow that seems high to me... My Golden bloated a year ago, she had gastric torsion (stomach, start of intestines and spleen were twisted) and she had surgery at the emergency vet. I don't remember the total but I believe it was under $1000 for the ER visit, overnight stay, GDV surgery and gastropexy. Of course that didn't include the stay at my regular vet the next day when the ER closed, or the EKG recheck 48 hours after surgery.
My Golden was also a rescue, and people used to always tell me I should breed her... As she got older she developed bridging spondylosis, DJD in her hips, arthritis in her hips/back/wrists, and not to mention the bloat, allergies, and immune issues.


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

That is the same surgery Lance had (gastric torsion) 

The estimate for his bloat surgery was $5700-$6200 so I thought I was getting a NICE discount when it was $4,000. I found the receipt for my Cheyenne's bloat surgery that was done about 7 years ago and it was $2800.00. You have to remember I live in NJ too....


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: DianaMHe looks beautiful... what a jumper!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you Diana...He was such a sad puppy. Before his surgery, he did not run or play but would sit or lay and watch all the other dogs play. He limped all the time. It does my heart such good to see him run (and he is pretty darn fast) and play with the other dogs now and to see him able to do agility and obedience and be a "normal" dog.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

I should breed Chance. Maybe I'll get some liver puppies out of him so I can advertise them as "rare" and make -$600-.







He doesn't have health test, has an unknown background since he's a rescue and he looks enough like a GSD that I could pass him off as one. (We'll figure something out since he's missing his testicles) Anyone got a bitch?











> Originally Posted By: autigersfanjcYou know there is alot of people out there, that doesnt CARE about Schutzund, OR care if the dog has a1 ceritfied OFA hips. IT DONT MATTER TO THEM. The only thing they want is a nice quality German Shepherd that can be an excellent companion and protector to them and their familys. And something that isn't going to empty their bank accounts by buying.
> 
> You guys need to realize that what you expect a breeder to be is not what someone else may expect them to be. I can offer both worlds. Some ppl want something nice and affordable, thats all. Im glad im one of the few that can offer people nice dogs.
> 
> I tell my customers there is no gaurantee's on the pup(s). I don't keep nothing hid.


Just wondering, what can you offer me that a shelter dog can't? You can't guarentee your puppies health, the parents aren't titled, the parents are health tested, you can't even guatentee your pups parents history, ect. If I want a family dog at an affordable price I'll take a shelter dog before I go to some cheap-o breeder who can't offer me anything more than a shelter can when it comes to the quality of the dog I'm getting.



> Quote:Because i breed what i state and that is quality.


What kind of quality? Your dogs don't have health test, titles, nothing.



> Quote:i inform the customers the dangers of HD and why it is soo important to keep the dog on a premium diet to ensure longevity.


HD is -genetic-. It has nothing to do with the diet of a dog. Yes, supplements can help but it's not going to keep the dog from getting it or suffering from it.

I think I got everything I wanted to say. I'll take some Tylenol now please, pass the bag Diana?


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Chance's Mom, If you breed him with a poodle, would they be liveroodles?







(Sorry)

Pass me the bag when you're done, I want to barf in it.


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: autigersfanjc
> 
> Like i stated already. Training has been done by me. I have introducd him to the sleeve already (With helper) and he will take it.



Who did you mentor with to learn your training skills? Did you have to travel to Columbus or Cinicinnati? I really do not know of any Sch trainers or obedience trainers for that matter in Wheelersburg, Ironton, Portsmouth, West Portsmouth, Lucasville, New Boston are any of the surrounding areas.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

Liverdoodles!! Awesome idea!!


















Everyone will want one Jenn!


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)




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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Hey Chance's Mom!!! Do I have the bitch for you:










KEETA!! Yup, BETTER than the OP's dogs! Could be a bi-colour, could be a blanket black and tan. Plus, she's a LONG-COAT!!! 
Oh no papers, and a rescue, so no better than the OP's "breeding dogs". BUT!!!! SHE HAS TITLES!!!!! SHE HAS PROVEN HER WORKING ABILITY BY GETTING TITLES!!! And we are working our way towards more! And is HEALTHY! I know she is healthy because she hasn't been to the vets for emergency surgery or anything else, except for shots.! Now, she _could_ be a mix, but so could the OP's dogs. Sure, she got floppy ears, but if people don't care about papers, health clearances, and proof of proper temperament through training and titling, who would care about floppy ears? (And EVERYBODY knows that SOME GSDs have floppy ears, and all you need to do is tape them up)!! 

Oh, wait . . . Darn it! I went and did the *responsible* and *ethical* thing and got her spayed! And to think of the nice little puppies she could have had! (Kicking myself now, at $375 a shot! MORE because the dam is titled! Darn it!)

PS: Did I mention that she is a shelter dog?


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Love it - Keeta and Chance would make gorgeous RottenShepherds together!


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Autigersfanjc, you are currently a backyard breeder that's sadly lacking in experience & knowledge about good breeding practices.

Your stud dog is gorgeous, IMO. He also sounds as though he's an exemplary pet, but he's strictly a _pet_, & not suited for breeding. Even if you did health clearances & put titles on him, you don't have the background info on his extended family to make an informed decision about breed worthiness. Frankly, you're fudging to sell his offspring as purebred GSDs as you can't even be certain he's purebred.

There's an excellent chance that some, even many, of your bargain basement pups will prove to be no bargain in the years ahead. Without knowing your guy's background, you can't possibly know what health or temperament glitches are lurking in his DNA. The GSD is a troubled breed that suffers from numerous genetic problems which unfortunately all too often emerge in the hands of careless or indifferent breeders. Such as yourself. 

Knowledgeable people will pay considerably more to buy from breeders that know what they're doing & why they're doing it, what they're striving for & how to get it. As noted, you recently had questions about coat & color identification/terminology. Not to be cruel, but it's impossible to take your claims of being a responsible breeder seriously when you're lacking in even the most basic info.

I'm not a working/sporting/show lines snob. Sam & Djibouti are from a companion lines breeder who has many yrs experience with breeding, training & raising healthy, sound, long lived companion GSDs. Her pups are sold on limited AKC registration with a contract that clearly spells out the rights & obligations of both seller & buyer. Knowledgeable advice & support is available throughout the dog's life. She stays abreast of research regarding vaccination protocols, early speuter, nutritional supplementation etc. My pup wasn't inexpensive, but at twice the price I'd have considered him a rare bargain.

Your breedings provide cheap pups from attractive parents of unknown background. Truly, that's no bargain. Please rethink what you're doing. IF you have a serious desire to breed, get tons of help & advice, take the necessary time (several years at least) to truly learn the breed & breeding & acquire the appropriate breeding stock to do it right. Lives rest on your decision. They really do.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

That liveroodle







-- I gotta have one. Do you suppose if I bred Rushie to a white poodle I would get party colored or harlequin oodles???

To the OP,

You will not know what you are producing for many years down the line. In fact, even if a pup you bred has a problem, your buyers will probably not bother to tell you about it. If they do, you will probably discount it to something they did wrong. 

People will look at their contract or paperwork or bill of sale when a problem comes up and see that it is not covered and not bother to even call you on it. By then they chalk it up to the fact that they should not have gone to a BYB for a dog. 

Dogs from ethical breeders are not perfect or free from health problems, but ethical breeders do their best to breed away from problems by studying the dogs behind their dogs and knowing what they produce. And they want to know if you have a problem with your puppy from them so they can make better decisions. And they stand behind their dogs, often replacing puppies, even beyond a couple of months if the dog proves to have a genetic issue. 

There is a continuum of dog breeders, puppy mills, BYBs, hobby breeders, commercial breeders, ethical breeders, etc. There are not clear accepted definitions of any of these. From your posts, you are definitely above the Yayhoo with hundreds of half starved dogs and puppies up to their hocks in fecies.







But you are definitely not up to the level of the Amish fellow that sold me Dubya -- his dogs were a-stamped, titled, and registered.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> Quote:At the time of purchase, i inform the customers the dangers of HD and why it is soo important to keep the dog on a premium diet to ensure longevity.


Hip dysplasia has very little to do with premium diets, considering that hip dysplasia is genetic. Genetic means that it is a condition passed on from the parents (or grandparents).

The way good breeders cut down on the chances of genetic health issues is by screening for them. That means, they have X-rays done and send them to OFA to be rated, to make sure that their breeding stock does not have bad hips, since bad hips can be passed along to the offspring. This goes for other genetic conditions as well.

The decent, hard-working people who purchase pet puppies from you want just that, nice puppies who grow into nice, healthy dogs. They are going to be unhappy, broke, decent, hard-working people when they find out those puppies have all sorts of genetic issues and they have to pay thousands of dollars in vet bills. In most of those cases, they don't because they can't afford to. So they put the dogs on Craig's List, dump them at the shelter, send them to rescue, or even abandon them by the side of the road.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

OP:

Your question was about lines. 

Your dog looks a lot like my female Bella with a more masculine head. 

She is American BYB lines. Very nice to look at. Has plasmoma, so about $3-5000 over her lifetime in eyedrops (hopefully higher end-longer life). Temperament a bit skitchy, though if I didn't know anything I'd say she was being protective. 

She is also a blanket back, more pigmented. Similar gaying of the tail when she runs. 

Absolutely not a breeding prospect. Unless someone out there is looking to perpetuate that oh so important BYB line...

Now-I believe you may be in Ohio. Take a look around at the shelters there-some of which still use gas chambers to kill the dogs. Not put to sleep, not euthanize-dogs are killed each day in your state because there are too many good dogs and too few good homes.


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## elly1210 (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: selzer
> You will not know what you are producing for many years down the line. In fact, even if a pup you bred has a problem, your buyers will probably not bother to tell you about it. If they do, you will probably discount it to something they did wrong.
> 
> People will look at their contract or paperwork or bill of sale when a problem comes up and see that it is not covered and not bother to even call you on it. By then they chalk it up to the fact that they should not have gone to a BYB for a dog.


This is so true and I know because I have gone through that same exact thinking with our husky, I didn't know much and we bought her 14 yrs ago from a BYB, she was diagnosed with cataracts by 2ys old and I never told the breeder. We were lucky they progress so slowly that she never went blind and we were lucky to have her for almost 14yrs until she subcumbed to liver cancer this Nov.


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## geokon_2000 (Jan 25, 2005)

Kill shelters are loaded with beautiful pure bred GSD's without papers. Why breed more? 

Just to see the numbers, check this part of the forum out. One of your dogs purchased is one less rescued.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=55&page=1


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## Maryn (Feb 15, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Camerafodder...some sort of german working lines. however, he's not a bi color. he's a blanket back
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't know. He has the same head, body type and coloring of my American/german show lines boy.


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## Maryn (Feb 15, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: SunCzarinaGood call, Kandi. It's either the same dog or a littermate with the same parents.
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubb...true#Post930223


I think I know where this male is from. A place called Concord Ohio. And it's a shame you didn't get any papers because the 'breeder' he comes from gives full AKC registration on all pups.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Reichsmom
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Camerafodder...some sort of german working lines. however, he's not a bi color. he's a blanket back
> ...


He's a blanket bl/tan. Jade, one of my females is that way. My male Hardy is a bicolor.


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## Maryn (Feb 15, 2008)

I have a feeling that bitch is out of Weirton WV too. These dogs look very familiar.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Alright, I'm shutting this thread down as well as the other one in the Breeder section.

I'm sure Jason is now quite aware of everyone's feelings on his breeding program. There is a lot of good info here in this thread, but also a lot of bashing. 

IF Jason is interested in learning more about the breed and improving his breeding practices, he can start new threads to that effect and if he's sincerely willing to learn there are plenty of members who will be glad to help him. But this thread has more than run it's course and it's time for it to end.


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## Maryn (Feb 15, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Angela_W
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Reichsmom
> ...


Oh, I agree he's a B&T, sorry..wasn't clear. I do not think he is german working lines.


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