# How to resolve destroying crate?



## wildo

Ok, well maybe "destroying" isn't quite accurate but I honestly am not sure what to call it. Gretchen my foster is perfectly fine in the crate when I am home. However, when I leave for work she seems to go insane trying to get out. I have a really heavy duty Midwest wire crate and she's literally bent the bar below the door. That's heavy gauge 1/4" wire! She must be pawing the crap out of it or something... The paint is scratched off and she was able to displace the bar by over 3/4 of an inch. I mean- it was tough for me to bend it back straight with my own hands.

Here's my problem- she's still entirely inoperant. She won't offer behaviors, she has no concept of working for treats or toys, and she almost certainly won't come out of the crate at any rate that could be considered a game. I'm still having to lure her out of the crate with food in the morning to get her to go outside for the bathroom. And the luring usually takes about 5 to 10 minutes or so. In other words- for crate games I need her to be willing to come out and go into the crate at a fast rate- much more than once every 5 or 10 minutes...

How do you build value for being in a crate when the dog won't play crate games with you? How do you build value for... anything... when the dog is totally fearful of everything??

I feel kind of selfish because I've "banished" Gretchen to a slightly smaller crate (which is still adequate in size- though she can't stretch out) that the HS provided because I didn't want my expensive crate destroyed. Is that selfish??

[EDIT]- I've tried draping a blanket over the crate, but she pulled the blanket in (how in the world!?) and ripped it all up. So covering the crate does not seem to help...
[EDITx2]- She's so scared of everything- even the sound of a clicker scares her!

_____________
Sorry if this has been asked before. I'm not sure what to call this behavior. I don't think it's separation anxiety. I'm not sure if such a thing as "crate anxiety" exists but since she's ok in the crate when I am home- I'm not sure it's that either. Because I don't know what to call it- I had a hard time searching for threads on here...


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## wildo

So I'm sitting here having a hard time getting my work done because I am having this issue that I don't know how to resolve- when it hit me...

*What does Gretchen find reinforcement in?
*-Currently, it's outside play time.

I think tonight when I get home from work I will move her crate outside and try to do some crate games there... Maybe I can get a higher in/out rate from a more stimulating environment. I just don't know what else to do.


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## CassandGunnar

I would continue to be patient with her. I don't think she's had enough time to adjust and figure out what's going on. I give all our fosters (all GSD's) a minimum of 2weeks to start adjusting. Some dogs start faster and some take longer. She may be a slow starter, especially if she's that timid and been through the ordeal she endured.


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## gsdraven

I think that sounds like a good idea, Willy.

I think what you are dealing may be more separation anxiety vs a problem with the crate though. Can you get a copy of Patricia McConnell's booklet I'll Be Home Soon? That might help with some ideas.

FWIW, I've had fosters that were able to bend the bar you mentioned, push open the door and totally collapse the crate in order to get out. None of them had separation anxiety, they just decided they no longer wanted to be in the crate. Kaiser still pulls anything that's on top of the crate in... blanets, jackets, bags. All kinds of things that I just cannot figure out how it fit in!


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## wildo

CassandGunnar said:


> I would continue to be patient with her. I don't think she's had enough time to adjust and figure out what's going on. I give all our fosters (all GSD's) a minimum of 2weeks to start adjusting.


I need to probably take this advice, but this is all a bit new to me. I don't actually understand what you mean by this. What does it mean to give her two weeks (or more generally- time) to adjust? Certainly that doesn't mean to ignore problem behaviors. Or does it?


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## wildo

gsdraven said:


> I think what you are dealing may be more separation anxiety vs a problem with the crate though. Can you get a copy of Patricia McConnell's booklet I'll Be Home Soon? That might help with some ideas.


Thanks for this, BTW. Just ordered via amazon though I didn't think it justified the $19 second day shipping. So it'll get here probably on Thursday.


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## CassandGunnar

Sorry about that. I didn't mean to imply that you should ignore issues, but that it's going to take some time to figure out what the "real" issues are. Just the shuffling around and new environment might be masking or hiding what the true problems are.
She's a dog who probably hasn't had too many positive interactions with people and is going to need some extra time to trust you and start to bond with you.
I guess I was going along the lines of it might take 10 minutes to lure her in/out of her crate for a while because she's just a bit overwhelmed, and not to push too hard or expect too much too soon.
You have dog experience and know when it's "too much".
I hope I'm coming across as making sense, I know what I want to convey, just not the right way to type it.
Some things have to be addressed right away and some things you have the luxury to take your time dealing with.
The crate issue might end up being a slow process, but I do think the idea of moving it outside might help speed up the process. A lot of times, like in this case, it's just a matter of finding what they'll work for. Since you don't know her full background/experiences, it's trial and error.


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## wildo

Well- the working the crate outside idea worked _so well!!!!_ I'm excited to share a quick video I made of it with you guys!


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## wildo

So I guess this would be teaching her a few things:


It's ok and fun to come out of the crate
It's ok and fun to chase me
"Don't wanna/Don't hafta" moment where she didn't want to go back in. We MUST work through that to establish a good work ethic
You don't leave the crate until invited
If I disappear- I will come back
The crate is part of a super fun game (this will be the foundation of our crate games [obviously])

Overall- a pretty decent session for a timid pup!






And yes- I did pull Pimg's tail at 4:35. I'm not happy with the fact I did that, but it was the first thing that came to mind. This is why I am not yet a 100% +R trainer- sometimes I act on instinct and my instincts are wrong.


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## ponyfarm

Willy, I love watching your videos. I am learning thru you! Pimg sure seems to be having fun prancing around with her toy! Gretchen sure is lucky!


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## Alexandria610

Aw, I love to see how much she wants to play with you and Pimg.  It's nice to see how excited she is to be outside, even with the other issues she's having.


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## wildo

ponyfarm said:


> Willy, I love watching your videos. I am learning thru you! Pimg sure seems to be having fun prancing around with her toy! Gretchen sure is lucky!


I'm glad you enjoyed it! That is Pimg's most favorite toy of all time- a Booda wing-a-ball. It is absolutely disgusting covered in mud, saliva, constantly dunked in her water bowl, smelly, gross, Gross, GROSS! But she loves it. That is the one thing she will do _anything_ for; but it stays outside. Our new "super awesome" toy is a rabbit fur fleece tug from Clean Run. I really think the rabbit fur provides some kind of instinctual prey drive and she really tugs it hard. (And if you are observant- you noticed some toy aggression from Pimg which I am so glad didn't phase Gretchen. Pimg _is_ an only child after all...) 

Oh wow- a little off topic. But yes- I'm glad you enjoyed it! :rofl:


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## PaddyD

You were teaching Gretchen that treats = confinement. She outsmarted you and you recognized it then ignored it. All the time Pimg was trying to take part and you were ignoring her. Gretchen has separation anxiety and it will take a 'while' for her to get over it. Part of the problem is that it goes from just a little while when you are at home to ALL DAY. That is a lot to ask. Gretchen is a smart dog. You could try using weekends to 'exercise' the separation anxiety issue by leaving her alone in the crate for different periods of time.
Sorry that I am not kissing your butt like everyone else.


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## wildo

Interesting perspective since she was also getting tons of treats (more in fact) outside of the crate... No butt kissing required.


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## Alexandria610

PaddyD said:


> Sorry that I am not kissing your butt like everyone else.


You know, I resent that. 

You could have simply offered suggestions and/or critique regarding his training of Gretchen without having to be a smart alleck and speak negatively of others. 

Kind of uncalled for.


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## middleofnowhere

Looks good - I would have had one success and given it a rest for the day/evening/session. Why? Because that way you can end on a positive note - with repeats after a success you risk setting the dog up for failure. (Watched one guy at the club do this time and time again - wow! got it! now let's do it two or three more times until we blow it... ) It seems like you were pushing (which often is pushing for failure) instead of really whooping it up on success & letting a win be a win.


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## wildo

middleofnowhere said:


> Looks good - I would have had one success and given it a rest for the day/evening/session. Why? Because that way you can end on a positive note - with repeats after a success you risk setting the dog up for failure. (Watched one guy at the club do this time and time again - wow! got it! now let's do it two or three more times until we blow it... ) It seems like you were pushing (which often is pushing for failure) instead of really whooping it up on success & letting a win be a win.


I couldn't agree more. If you listen near the end I start saying "shoulda ended this!!" Since I didn't though, I did have to push through her "don't wanna, don't hafta" moment. I hope that we did in fact end with a success. Totally agree though- for this young lady, 6 mins is probably way to long of a session. I appreciate the comment!


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## BowWowMeow

Thanks for sharing the video. Now I know how to pronounce Pimg's name! 

I agree that you want to keep the sessions shorter. She is offering you very submissive behavior every time you approach her (she lies down in the crate) and with her body and tail carriage she's feeling pretty uncertain of everything. I would keep things fun, fun, fun and not force anything at this point. You want to go really slowly so that she doesn't backslide. 

Also, Rafi had terrible separation anxiety (he would absolutely freak out even when I left the room, much less the house) when I adopted him and it took 7 weeks of carefully following McConnell's protocol (from the above mentioned book) to get him comfortable being home without me. After that he was fine though, out of the crate (he had some barrier anxiety too). 

There is a great yahoo group called Shyk9s. They were really helpful for me working with Kai and I would have loved to have been on there when I adopted Basu (who was a lot like Gretchen except even more withdrawn). 

Thanks again for taking this girl in! You're going to do great with her.


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## wildo

Ok, this is getting dangerous and I don't know how to handle it. Granted, dog's escape from their crate on a daily basis, but the level Gretchen is willing to go to definitely puts her in precarious and dangerous positions. I'm afraid she will knock out bars and get her head stuck between them or something. *I have to find a way to contain her when I'm not home!!!*

Today at lunch she knocked out the whole front of the crate. She had a bone stuffed full of peanut butter and I made a lattice out of scrape PVC to keep a sheet draped over the crate but far enough away for her to not be able to reach it:









So I wire tied (zip tied) the whole thing back together using many, many zip ties. I stopped at the HS and picked up a raw meaty bone, Dog Appeasing Pheromone, and a crate pad. She still managed to bust out- and note- she barely touched the RMB!!! 









She's not a big girl, but that hole is much smaller than her head. She must have been frantic trying to get out. I'm deeply concerned she's going to hurt herself in an escape attempt. Here's a video I recorded of her last night as I left the house for ten minutes to go buy a snapple. Pimg was with me, and Gretchen had a peanut butter stuffed kong in her crate:





I'm totally at a loss! I'm thinking only one of those crazy aluminum crates will contain this girl! I don't have access to one of those, but I have to feel confident in containment _somehow..._

Advice!?


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## gsdraven

What does she do when she gets out? Is she destructive? If not, can you leave her out of it or put her in a dog proof room? Sometimes, a larger crate is better. I had one that could not be in a 48 but was fine in a 54.


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## chelle

Wow... Bailey has gotten the bottom tray out before a couple of times and now I know more HOW he managed it. 

I wish I had some advice, but don't.  But do want to give you some kudos for trying to "think outside the box (crate)" 

Best of luck!


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## Samba

I do hope for all the best with her. It does take time for the rescues to begin to be "normal" regarding interaction and getting training relationship,so really not expecting much may get you further in the end.

If she has seperation anxiety of a true nature, it will take a great deal of time to work through it. If she does not truly have this anxiety disorder, she may adapt sooner and with easy invention.

I have had fosters with seperation anxiety. No wire crate, plastic crate or pen safely held them. I could have purchased a sturdier steel crate, but often the dog injured itself even inside the crate. I found the best thing for these dogs was to be in a foster home where a dog person was home. This allowed for protocol for the treatment of separation anxiety to be properly implemented. It worked best for those dogs.


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## Alexandria610

I notice in the video that she's seemingly staring directly at the camera a few times, and once when she goes to nibble on the kong, she sort of jumps and realizes the camera is still there, then sort of hides her kong. 

Obviously it's not the camera everytime, but do you think that this could have lead to the anxiety in this particular evening? Just curious. I've been lucky that my dogs don't notice the cameras when I set them up (though I usually find a tricky way to sort of 'hide' them so they don't get spooked), but it almost seems like she was smart enough to know something was there - and she didn't seem to want it to be there.

But obviously that's not the problem here. Just thought I'd point it out - she's a smart dog!


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## middleofnowhere

From the video it looks like your threshold is 3 minutes. 
As others have said, why is she crated? (Crating isn't for every dog.)
Is she better with your other dog nearby or not?

Whole Dog Journal had an article a year or two ago on "Kong Time" which worked great for seperation anxiety on dogs that were not crated. Basically, it is a devise that opens periodically to dispense a kong. It seems that dogs like "waiting in anticipation for something."


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## Jax08

I think you are doing a fantastic job, Willy. And I'm not kissing anything...

I noticed two things.

1) Pimg was really wanting attention. I think when you are working with Gretchen you should leave Pimg inside. And then bring Pimg out and put Gretchen in. It's extremely hard to work with one dog when another wants your attention and you don't want to create any jealousy between the two.

2) She is very submissive when you open the crate door. So, when you reward her, what are you rewarding her for? What do you think she is thinking she's being rewarded for? A dog relates things within 2-3 seconds. It's possible you are reinforcing her submissiveness rather than her calmness in the crate

I think you need to work on building a relationship with her. Teach her the reward is relative to YOU and teach her a release word. It took me just a few days to teach Jax that Yes! meant a reward of some kind. Does she like fetch? Frisbee? Treats? What is her highest valued 'treat'? Have her do small things like Sit, Down, etc. Whatever she knows and then have a party with Yes! and a reward. I think that way, you can 'release' her in the crate before you get to her so she knows she did something right.

I have no input on SA. Luckily we've never experienced it. It's possible, if she's not destroying anything while you are gone, that it isn't SA and she just doesn't want to be confined. Maybe, like Jamie suggested, a larger crate or a dog proof room would be better for her.


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## PaddyD

Alexandria610 said:


> You know, I resent that.
> 
> You could have simply offered suggestions and/or critique regarding his training of Gretchen without having to be a smart alleck and speak negatively of others.
> 
> Kind of uncalled for.


That is true. Mea Maxima Culpa
I rescued a dog with separation anxiety once. She got out (somehow) while we were at work and did a TON of destruction in every room. Ruined a lot of furniture and inside shutters trying to get out.
You are doing wonderful work trying to create an environment that is comfortable for her. I agree with Jax08 that the most important thing is building a relationship with her. It takes time and it is in her time not yours.
Tossing food into the crate then shutting her in is not working in your favor. It is teaching her that you are trying to trick her and she has caught onto that.
And remove Pimg while working with Gretchen so they each can have their own time with you.


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## Rerun

Well perhaps someone will quote or copy/paste this for Willy to read, since I think he put me on ignore awhile back

I've had a few fosters that had crate issues, I generally don't consider it seperation anxiety unless the dog stresses and destroys regardless of whether they are in the crate or not. What gets tricky is when you leave the dog out who doesn't crate well, is determining if the dog is destructive due to A) true SA or B) because the dog doesn't know any better

I have had excellent success with these dogs in the VERY heavy duty big (48" length) airline style petmate crates. They are not cheap. But I've not yet had a dog break out of the one I have. I actually owned two, but my mother adopted the last dog I used this crate for and I sent the extra one home with her.

Petmate Traditional Giant Portable Vari Kennel Crates - Giant Breed Vari Kennel from petco.com

They are a lot stronger than the cheaper ones that look like it. I actually have the "furrari" model as well, which I love, but I don't put fosters in it who are problem craters because it's so thin and light weight, I have no doubt they'd bust out the front of it. That one pictured above has held in some really determined dogs. I'm sure there are many dogs that could get out, but I've had some worse than yours and that one held them in and they eventually (over time) learned to settle and relax. The one my mom adopted HAD to be crated when I first got him - he had HW's big time and an ACL injury. He was awful in the wire crate, did awesome in the vari kennel.

Regarding whether she does better with Pimg there or not, would be irrelevant for me given that I would not under any circumstance leave the two of them in the room together (since you know this dog can escape from her crate). You could, however, try crating Pimg nearby if it seems to help, but ultimately you will want her to be able to be crated - alone - for a good adoption chance.


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## KSdogowner

CassandGunnar said:


> I would continue to be patient with her. I don't think she's had enough time to adjust and figure out what's going on. I give all our fosters (all GSD's) a minimum of 2weeks to start adjusting. Some dogs start faster and some take longer. She may be a slow starter, especially if she's that timid and been through the ordeal she endured.


Yes exactly what I as thinking. All of my fosters needed at least two weeks before I could do anything with them. The entire 2 weeks were spent just leaving them the space they needed where they watched from the safety of the crate. I left the crate door open while being home. She is still trying to figure things out. You don't want to overstimulate her because that could be counter productive.


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## Jax08

PaddyD said:


> Tossing food into the crate then shutting her in is not working in your favor. It is teaching her that you are trying to trick her and she has caught onto that.


I think there might be a valid point here. When you are heading back to the crate, she is avoiding you. Her head is down and she's heading the other way. How about taking it back a notch. Call her, toss the treat it, tell her Crate, mark her going into the crate with a clicker or Yes! and treat her again. But don't lock her in while you are working on getting her to voluntarily go into the crate.

She has to learn to go into a crate and be comfortable in one in case she ever needs to be crated in an emergency or medical situation so I think it's really important that she learns that a crate means all good things in small steps.


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## Jax08

Oh Willy!!!  Are you blocking Rerun! :nono:



Rerun said:


> Well perhaps someone will quote or copy/paste this for Willy to read, since I think he put me on ignore awhile back
> 
> I've had a few fosters that had crate issues, I generally don't consider it seperation anxiety unless the dog stresses and destroys regardless of whether they are in the crate or not. What gets tricky is when you leave the dog out who doesn't crate well, is determining if the dog is destructive due to A) true SA or B) because the dog doesn't know any better
> 
> I have had excellent success with these dogs in the VERY heavy duty big (48" length) airline style petmate crates. They are not cheap. But I've not yet had a dog break out of the one I have. I actually owned two, but my mother adopted the last dog I used this crate for and I sent the extra one home with her.
> 
> Petmate Traditional Giant Portable Vari Kennel Crates - Giant Breed Vari Kennel from petco.com
> 
> They are a lot stronger than the cheaper ones that look like it. I actually have the "furrari" model as well, which I love, but I don't put fosters in it who are problem craters because it's so thin and light weight, I have no doubt they'd bust out the front of it. That one pictured above has held in some really determined dogs. I'm sure there are many dogs that could get out, but I've had some worse than yours and that one held them in and they eventually (over time) learned to settle and relax. The one my mom adopted HAD to be crated when I first got him - he had HW's big time and an ACL injury. He was awful in the wire crate, did awesome in the vari kennel.
> 
> Regarding whether she does better with Pimg there or not, would be irrelevant for me given that I would not under any circumstance leave the two of them in the room together (since you know this dog can escape from her crate). You could, however, try crating Pimg nearby if it seems to help, but ultimately you will want her to be able to be crated - alone - for a good adoption chance.


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## Runswithdogs

That video is heartbreaking and looks like how Regen and Osa both were when we first got them home. 
Is there any way you can bring her to doggie daycare or leave her with a friend when you are at work while you work on increasing her threshold (like others said, it seems like she had about 2 minutes before starting to panic)? 
We completely could not afford it but ended up doing just that with Regen after she had gotten a huge bump on her nose from trying to burrow out of the crate. We could have purchased an aluminum crate with how much we spent on daycare (a combo of a commercial daycare and a member of this board with a GSD who watched her at her house), but everything we read said that she would still hurt herself if she was frantic enough and it would do nothing to help the issue.
The "I'll be home soon" booklet is great-- but only if you can figure out what to do with her while you are working on counterconditioning. 

It takes a lot of time and patience, and in our case Regen is still prone to issues and we have an elaborate ritual before leaving (and it's awful to leave and come home and leave again in one day), but she can manage to be home and calm in her crate now for 8 hours (with a frozen Kong to work on).


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## Samba

I think a dog with separation anxiety generally can not be rapidly fixed in order to be kept confined for long work hours. Unless there is some magic I don't know about, arrangements that accomodate the reality of the dog are the humane approach. Is there another foster person who could foster during the day? Separation anxiety, in my thinking, is not so much about crate training as it is assisting the dog with learning to self calm and self regulate. This is different from learning to like or accept crating.


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## Samba

Found something from Dr. karen Overall

South Wilton Veterinary Group


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## NewbieShepherdGirl

First I would like to say that Gretchen is absolutely gorgeous and it's obvious that you really care about her! 

I agree a little with Paddy D about teaching her that if she actually goes in the crate she'll get locked in, so why go after the treat if you're just going to get trapped? I totally understand what you're trying to do though, and think it's a great idea to get her to go in the crate. I think that in and of itself must be the objective: going into the crate gets you a treat. Sometimes the door shuts, sometimes it doesn't, but the constant is every time you go into the crate you get a treat. I would also suggest maybe feeding her at least part of her meal (I don't know if you're hand feeding to try to gain some trust or something along these lines) in her crate so that it becomes a really good place. I would also use the most awesome treats when working on this. It's different for every dog, but I would try a few things out and see what she really goes bonkers over. For Sasha it's cheese. I'm pretty sure she'd cut off her right paw for a slice of cheese, so whenever I'm doing something particularly hard for her I've got cheese. 

As far as keeping her in it....I'm not really an expert on that. I have the girl that broke out of a zip tied, leach tied, latched crate; out a shut bedroom door that you have to pull in to open; unlocked and opened the main door and proceeded to run around the apartment complex. I put an external deadbolt on the door, but the guy that put it on put an internal lever on the inside, even though I told him that wasn't a good idea, she flipped the lever in a day and got out. I then bought a slab of metal to put over the internal lever on the inside of the door. Just last week did she stop jumping up on the door when I would leave. So how do you keep her in her crate? I don't know, but the point of my story is if you decide to leave her out know that she may get out. Having rounded door knobs may not be enough either. Sasha and I were at my mom's last weekend and I keep her extra kibble in the laundry room which has a rounded handle, and she opened that and ate a little kibble.

As far as the bond goes, it really does take time. Sasha and I bonded fairly quickly, and then now 9 months later we've relapsed a bit where she'll act kind of skittish. I will say that she's not even hardly the same dog she was when we got her. I'm pretty sure if her foster mom saw her now she'd be amazed. Even with this little relapse she's so much more confident (and bossy.......lol) than she was when we got her. Just give her time and love; you'll get there 

This has nothing to do with Gretchen, but I loved watching Pimg lol I could almost see the thoughts floating around that head, "She doesn't want to play with you Dad. Play with me. See look I have this toy right here; I'll play with you! I want to play with you! In the crate you say? I'll go in the crate! Play with me!!!" It was so cute; you can't tell she's crazy about you


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## wildo

OK- I first *have* to say- you guys *rock!!* I'm really happy to be part of this forum and be able to bounce ideas off you guys and request help. I'm really delighted and floored that so many of you commented, and I sincerely appreciate it! There are way to many comments for me to respond to all (it's been a BUSY night due to a work-related event), but I will comment on those that stand out to me... Again- I thank you all!

And since some of you may not read all my replies- I'll say here at the top that I might have found a solution in a vari-kennel. While Gretchen did escape from it tonight while I was gone, she was not able to damage the plastic itself. With a better method of locking the door, it might (MIGHT) just container her...



gsdraven said:


> What does she do when she gets out? Is she destructive? If not, can you leave her out of it or put her in a dog proof room? Sometimes, a larger crate is better. I had one that could not be in a 48 but was fine in a 54.


Interestingly- she is not _that_ destructive outside the crate. Neither was Pimg for that matter, though Pimg would attack my books and DVD cases. (Weirdo!!!) Gretchen has done very, very minimal damage. She's eaten a small amount of TOTW food from an open bag that was on the floor (I keep an open bag of dog food on the floor in the utility room; Pimg absolutely does not get into it- I'll call it good training). She's also gotten a scotch tape dispenser. Yes.... _extremely_ minor, I know. No torn up furniture. No accidents in the house. She did get into the bathroom garbage, but that is the single item that even Pimg gets into on a fairly regular basis (I'll call that bad training). So no- she is not destructive when out of the crate compared to what she _could_ be.



Samba said:


> If she has seperation anxiety of a true nature, it will take a great deal of time to work through it. If she does not truly have this anxiety disorder, she may adapt sooner and with easy invention.


Though I feel I was at my wit's end when writing my last post- I do want to make it clear that I 100% agree with this, and am cognizant of it. I definitely "get it" that it's going to take time- honestly. My biggest concern at this point is Gretchen's safety and confinement, especially after reading the story from Rerun or Lin (at least I really thought it was from them) about their dog getting its head stuck in the crate and nearly suffocating. (I couldn't find that story to cross reference.) While I have all the time in the world to build value for the crate, I absolutely 100% can *not* deal with the uncertainty of not knowing that Gretchen is safely confined. To me- this is an urgent issue.



Alexandria610 said:


> I notice in the video that she's seemingly staring directly at the camera a few times
> 
> Just thought I'd point it out - she's a smart dog!


I also noticed that she was very aware of the camera, and I found that both a bit odd and impressive. I'm telling you- she's one smart cookie!!



Jax08 said:


> I think you are doing a fantastic job, Willy. And I'm not kissing anything...
> 
> It's possible, if she's not destroying anything while you are gone, that it isn't SA and she just doesn't want to be confined. Maybe, like Jamie suggested, a larger crate or a dog proof room would be better for her.


Thanks- I appreciate your compliments. I'm trying not to be dramatic about it, but it's really stressful not knowing if she's confined or not! She isn't really destroying anything, but since I'm a bit of a pack rat- I'll have to do some real work to create a dog-proof room.



Rerun said:


> Well perhaps someone will quote or copy/paste this for Willy to read, since I think he put me on ignore awhile back
> 
> I have had excellent success with these dogs in the VERY heavy duty big (48" length) airline style petmate crates. They are not cheap. But I've not yet had a dog break out of the one I have. I actually owned two, but my mother adopted the last dog I used this crate for and I sent the extra one home with her.
> 
> You could, however, try crating Pimg nearby if it seems to help, but ultimately you will want her to be able to be crated - alone - for a good adoption chance.


Blocked or not, I can still see your posts, and believe it or not, I do sometimes agree with your take on things. As it were, I emailed the foster coordinator this morning, sent her this video, and requested a vari-kennel. I realized that there are very few (if any) surfaces in the vari-kennel that Gretchen could "latch on" to, and thus reduce her chance at escape. The foster coordinator is floored that she didn't respond to the RMB (as am I!) and has been ultra responsive to my requests. Very happy about that! She was able to get me a big vari-kennel (Travel-Aire brand) and while Gretchen was able to break out of it tonight, she was *not* able to do damage to the plastic crate itself. That's huge news... I just need to come up with a more ingenious method for securing the door since carabiners didn't seem to work tonight. With this- I might actually have a real hope of containment! And _that_ is some crazy exciting news.

Further- I totally agree with you that for adoption, she *needs* to be able to be calm/contained in a wire crate. It's very likely that her adopting family will have plans for crating with a wire crate, and this is not something I haven't thought about... With time, I think Gretchen can get there.



Samba said:


> I think a dog with separation anxiety generally can not be rapidly fixed in order to be kept confined for long work hours. Unless there is some magic I don't know about, arrangements that accomodate the reality of the dog are the humane approach.


I want to make it perfectly clear that I am *not* looking for a rapid fix to separation anxiety; I am _only_ looking for a rapid fix to my containment issue. Not all of us have the luxury of being stay at home wives (not saying you are such) and can babysit such issues. Fact: Gretchen will _have_ to learn to settle in a crate. I do have to go to work 5 days a week, and that is her reality. She's going to have to deal/cope and I just can't change that... I totally agree that a slower approach where she can be around someone 24/7 may be a better method, but it just isn't going to happen. I sincerely hope you don't find me less humane for that; note that the _same_ thing could easily happen for a new pup- they would have to learn to deal with it. That is reality.



NewbieShepherdGirl said:


> First I would like to say that Gretchen is absolutely gorgeous...
> 
> This has nothing to do with Gretchen, but I loved watching Pimg lol I could almost see the thoughts floating around that head, "She doesn't want to play with you Dad. Play with me. See look I have this toy right here; I'll play with you! I want to play with you! In the crate you say? I'll go in the crate! Play with me!!!" It was so cute; you can't tell she's crazy about you


1) I totally agree; Gretchen is a gorgeous dog that grows on me even more every day. I don't know what it is about her, but I find her totally, amazingly beautiful. I've considered starting a "Critique My Dog" thread just to help identify what it is about her, but I find that such a thread may be in poor taste with a foster- you know, since she isn't mine for real, and since someone may say something bad about a dog that will eventually be up for adoption... Anyway- I'll leave it at: I couldn't agree more. She is absolutely stunning, and a guarantee- even more so in person!
2) So glad someone commented on Pimg. Made my day. Yes- I'd say your quote is most likely spot on to the thoughts she was having at that instant. She is a freak about that toy! Play, play, play!! She is crazy about me, and I love her for it!!


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## BowWowMeow

When I was counter-conditioning Rafi for SA (and he destroyed a sofa in his foster home when left uncrated for half an hour) I did take him everywhere with me, even to work. He would also leave delicious things untouched and when I would return home he was an absolute wreck. 

I tried DAP and all kinds of stress stuff and nothing work until we went through that protocol. 

Hopefully Gretchen does not have true SA and only has barrier anxiety. 

Just an FYI: I have seen many dogs completely bust the door of the varikennel.


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## wildo

BowWowMeow said:


> Hopefully Gretchen does not have true SA and only has *barrier anxiety*.


Oh!!!! That's the term I was looking for when I started this thread! Thanks!!


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## Achielles UD

wildo said:


> Further- I totally agree with you that for adoption, she *needs* to be able to be calm/contained in a wire crate. It's very likely that her adopting family will have plans for crating with a wire crate, and this is not something I haven't thought about... With time, I think Gretchen can get there.
> 
> I want to make it perfectly clear that I am *not* looking for a rapid fix to separation anxiety; I am _only_ looking for a rapid fix to my containment issue. Not all of us have the luxury of being stay at home wives (not saying you are such) and can babysit such issues. Fact: Gretchen will _have_ to learn to settle in a crate. I do have to go to work 5 days a week, and that is her reality. She's going to have to deal/cope and I just can't change that... I totally agree that a slower approach where she can be around someone 24/7 may be a better method, but it just isn't going to happen. I sincerely hope you don't find me less humane for that; note that the _same_ thing could easily happen for a new pup- they would have to learn to deal with it. That is reality.


So you are certain she is just going to be a foster and not staying with you, eventually going on to another family, right? I have not read everything you have posted about her, but what I see, you are way rushing everything. You want to fix her issues right now. Sure, a future family may want to use a wire crate, but so what? If they really want Gretchen, they can adapt and get a vari kennel. Not that big of an issue IMO. Heck, many people don't ever want to even use a crate.

What Gretchen really needs is stability right now, IMO. She needs a set schedule. She needs time and patience. She doesn't need all the energy I saw in the first video. Dogs feed off of us and with that excitable training exercise, it just made her more anxious.

You say you don't want a quick fix to the SA. You only want to find a way to contain her safely. I understand this, but unfortunately for you, that is not the type of training or environment she needs. You say she is just going to have to learn to "deal with it." That in itself is pretty cruel if you think about it. I mean, it's like having a child with zoophobia (fear of animals) and then aquiring dogs, cats, mice, lizards, and all manner of animals, because you like them. Then telling the child, "You'll just have to deal with them because this is the way it is." 

I think you need to step it all down a notch. Talk to the foster coordinator, explain that you may not be the best foster home for this dog. No shame in it. I've done the same in the past. The dog was not the right fit for the type of fostering I could do (extremely submissive dogs do not do well with me & I know that). I got another to foster in her place, so no loss and it worked out best for the dogs. Gretchen may not be the best type of foster for you, since she has SA and containment issues and you are not someone who can work/stay at home nor take her to work with you.

However, if you continue to keep her, I suggest talking to your vet. Get some medication to help her through the transition. Stop trying to rush crate training and SA training and clicker training and trying to get her to be more excited and up like Pimg is.

In fostering, I always say to remember the 2/2/2 rule. 2 weeks/2 months/2 years.
2 weeks: For the foster to _start _to trust the foster parent and _start_ to realize/learn the new household schedule.
2 months: For the foster to begin to show their true personality & character and be comfortable in the foster/new home.
2 years: The "foster" is now home & knows it.

This is generally how it seems to work for most dogs, but of course, it is a generalization and dogs with issues, may take longer at certain steps in the process.

Good luck whatever you do decide to do. :hug:


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## Rerun

What is the style of door front your kennel has? Can you post a link or picture? Most of the other "off brands" have a different, lighter, door. The one I have is solid, I can't imagine how they could get the door off.

There are different points of view on getting a dog to accept a crate. I'm more like you - they learn to accept it with proper confinment. No one is home all the time. Even if another foster home was found, they'd be in the same problem given that everyone has to grocery shop, run errands, etc. I don't know any foster people personally that would leave a dog loose straight from a shelter. That's not to say it doesn't exist, but very rare.

I don't think she has SA personally, based on what you've written. Sounds like she has crate anxiety. I think people spend months, years, doing training methods that don't really work very well and give up saying the dog has SA. The only way she'll truely learn that a crate is ok is when she's safely confined and can not injure herself in it or get out. the more she gets out, the more determined she'll be to keep trying. The dog I had that was crazy nuts in a wire crate did awesome in his huge vari kennel. To this day, several years later, he'll trot right in there and lay down even with the door open. He's happy as a pea in a pod in that cage. Keeping him in there was neither cruel nor tramatic for him. I've had a couple others that responded as well, though I don't know what their adoptive families ended up doing crate wise so who knows now.

Regarding adoption - I would just stress that she can't be kenneled in a wire crate. People will understand. If they are too cheap to get a new cage (ala craigslist even) then they aren't the right home for her. They'll stick her in a wire crate, she'll get hurt or their crate damaged, and they'll return her. So, hold out for the home who understands the very basic need of a particular style cage. Some dogs just like the more den feeling.

And it was Lin's dog who got it's head stuck in the crate. Mine are all really well crate trained so no issues there, though Dante was a real turd when I got him at 10 wks and the most persistant of the crate training process. He's totally fine now


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## Alexandria610

I've had a dog with TRUE SA, and let me tell you - it was nothing like this.

He would whine and bark the SECOND I left the house - he wasn't crate trained at the time, and I was pretty naive about crates to be honest. He left a seriouslly heinous trail of feces and urine throughout the house (I would only be gone for, at the longest, two hours), and he would actually claw my legs out of excitement when I'd get home. His eyes would almost bulge, bloodshot, and his heart rate was out of this world. I always worried he'd have a heart attack (literally) everytime I came home.

Also, I lost many things when I had him. Not only did he have the barking/whining/body function issues, but he of course was EXTREMELY destructive. The curtains and blinds to the window he could see me leaving? GONE. Totally ruined. And this was a small dog - a pom/american eskimo. I can't imagine the type of damage he would have done if he was bigger.

He had a BAD bout of SA, and even after trying to work on it, it never got better. It was heartbreaking having to leave him, even to take the trash out - no joke. If I stepped outside the house, even for a second, he would start this shrill screaming whine that would turn into a howl and bark. It was so sad.

So....I honestly don't think that's the problem here. I think like many have said, it's just crate training issues. I've had dogs that aren't used to crates (when they're adults) that do this same kind of damage. The catahoula that I took in off the streets for a day did pretty much the same thing, but somehow found his way between the bars (and I'm still not sure how he managed that one) after ripping up the plastic tray in the bottom of the crate and bending just about every wire in the crate.

Good luck, Willy.


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## gsdraven

wildo said:


> Interestingly- she is not _that_ destructive outside the crate. Neither was Pimg for that matter, though Pimg would attack my books and DVD cases. (Weirdo!!!)


Mine always go for the books and DVDs too!  My copy of Dog Sense has no cover but at least they left the pages intact!

Everyone else already said what I was thinking... if she isn't destructive outside the crate then it likely isn't SA (good thing). You've gotten a ton of great advice so far.


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## wildo

Rerun said:


> What is the style of door front your kennel has? Can you post a link or picture? Most of the other "off brands" have a different, lighter, door. The one I have is solid, I can't imagine how they could get the door off.


It looks exactly like this:









Tonight I plan on welding up a steel door...


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## Rerun

Yeah, that's why I specifically linked the one I use. The door is incredibly strong and has a different latch mechanism. The door in the pic you posted is not as sturdy and easier to pop off. I've never had a dog to it, and I don't know how they do it, but I've heard it many times from others. The door I have has long metal spikes, for lack of a better word, that extend about two inches through the holes on the top and bottom. the door you posted has tiny little spikes that are short and go into the holes on the top and bottom. I can only assume that this is what makes it easy to pop off.


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## BowWowMeow

I have a real varikennel and a friend borrowed it and her little pittie foster _bent _ the metal door to get out of it.

My experience with SA is that when you return home the dog is covered in saliva, there is saliva everywhere (there used to a huge puddle outside of Rafi's crate, the dog is extremely stressed out (Rafi would sleep for hours after I got home) and is often injured from trying to escape and get to you. 

It does really sound like Gretchen has barrier anxiety or a mile case of SA due to all of the changes (very common). I agree though that you need to go slowly with her.


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## Rerun

Well I certainly didn't say it was impossible to get out of.  Simply very difficult in comparison to a wire crate or a knock off vari kennel.


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## carmspack

those vari kennels are useless . get enough clawing at the door and the latch breaks.
Don't let your dog read this !! Do you see all the ventilation slits ? Do you know how easy it is to get a tooth hold of them and just keep scissoring away till you have a nice escape hatch?

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## wildo

carmspack said:


> those vari kennels are useless . get enough clawing at the door and the latch breaks.
> Don't let your dog read this !! Do you see all the ventilation slits ? Do you know how easy it is to get a tooth hold of them and just keep scissoring away till you have a nice escape hatch?


Is it proper for me to simply reply: No. I don't know how easy it is... But I suspect I will find out when I get home for lunch in a couple hours. :crazy:

[EDIT]- I will add, assuming she bites out of this one too- what advice do you have carmspack? I am positive that I have no access to an ultra-secure aluminum kennel. I think at that point I'd have to go the route of building a plywood one.


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## Rerun

No, they aren't useless. I've had multiple foster dogs who could bust out of wire crates NOT get out of my vari kennel. Again, only the specific one I posted. I've had several others of different styles, all much lighter, and wouldn't trust those.


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## wildo

Well that was nice while it lasted. She didn't actually get out- but she will certainly manage between lunch and when I get off work. Sigh... I guess I will be bringing home a sheet of plywood tonight. Look at all the fur lost, by the way. Wow.


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## gsdraven

Willy,

I'm not so sure the plywood is going to help and she may just injure herself more. Kaiser was breaking nails on his crate so I put plexigass on the inside and he snapped that in half so I don't recommend that either.

It may be time to consider looking for another foster home for her that can work on crate training slower. Or, if you have a small mud room or bathroom where she can't do much damage. Or a kennel inside a garage or basement so she doesn't feel so confined but she is?

She's way too stressed being in a crate and the longer she's allowed to stress out and try to break out, the longer it will take to make the crate a positive thing.


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## wildo

I dunno- where's the line? If a plywood kennel can't keep her contained- there is no way the drywall in _any_ of my rooms will. I think this girl deserves to not be shipped around to a hundred different homes that where nobody can figure out how to contain her. I am not willing to give up- not at this stage yet anyway. Gretchen deserves that. I will try to contain her until I literally have no ideas left- at that point, I may consider returning her. Note I am also working closely with the foster coordinator on this.


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## gsdraven

I don't want to sound redundant but there's a difference between a small crate/kennel and a large room. Especially if she hasn't gone after walls when she's gotten loose. To put it in human terms, she may just be claustrophobic (or as Ruth said, have barrier anxiety). 

I give you major credit for wanting to stick it out with her, I just feel strongly that you need to look at larger options instead of trying to keep reinforcing the smaller crate. It may make a difference, it may not but hopefully she won't be worse for wear by giving her a little room to breathe (even if she's still confined).


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## Alexandria610

gsdraven said:


> I don't want to sound redundant but there's a difference between a small crate/kennel and a large room. Especially if she hasn't gone after walls when she's gotten loose. To put it in human terms, she may just be claustrophobic (or as Ruth said, have barrier anxiety).
> 
> I give you major credit for wanting to stick it out with her, I just feel strongly that you need to look at larger options instead of trying to keep reinforcing the smaller crate. It may make a difference, it may not but hopefully she won't be worse for wear by giving her a little room to breathe (even if she's still confined).


I have to agree with this. Luckily, I haven't been in a situation yet where I've had dogs that have the whole barrier anxiety thing. Of course, I say yet, 'cause heaven forbid I say anything else 'cause then I'll end up with one!

But it sounds like if you just put her in a room that's pretty cleared of everything but doggie stuff that you'd put in a crate, leave for maybe five or ten minutes (just long enough for her to have her anxieties, if she has any, like she had in the crate, but not quite long enough to do any EXTREME damage), and then come back to see (record her, too!) then you may be surprised. My own dogs often surprise me with what they know and can do when I don't think they can.


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## CassandGunnar

I think it was mentioned already, but can you co-op with another volunteer to provide a doggie day care situation? It's going to be even tougher to work with her problem if she had to be contained several days a week. Any gains you make one day or over the weekends will be erased or you may cause other issues. At this point, "forcing" containment may be doing more harm than good. This is the type of issue that takes time and patience to deal with. Add the fact that she's still trying to adjust to all that's happened recently. You can continue to help her better by giving her asituation whet she can improve. Hopefully that can be with you and another volunteer.
Try and think in terms of fixing the problem (plywood/steel crates, forced containment) or solving it (helping her get past her issue so it doesn't hamper her ability to get adopted)

I'm retired so I can take dogs like this. We're working on crate training a foster right now, but we have the luxury of time.


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## wildo

Ok- a room is cleared out. That said- if one more freakin person tells me that this issue takes time and I need to slow down- I swear I'm going to explode.


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## gsdraven

*Fingers crossed* that it works for you and her and that you don't jump through the computer and strangle me if it doesn't!


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## Alexandria610

wildo said:


> Ok- a room is cleared out. That said- if one more freakin person tells me that this issue takes time and I need to slow down- I swear I'm going to explode.


Hey Willy......it's gonna take time. Slow down  Sorry, I just had to! 

Best of luck with it - definitely let us know how this goes. I've been trying to keep tabs on this girl and your stories/videos with her. I'm praying for great success!!!


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## Runswithdogs

wildo said:


> Ok- a room is cleared out. That said- if one more freakin person tells me that this issue takes time and I need to slow down- I swear I'm going to explode.


Haha...I feel your pain, I was there- when we adopted Regen we were both working 50 hours a week and couldn't change that. I would seriously stop with the crates and try leaving her in a room instead- if it is truly an issue with the crate and not SA, she should be fine.

The drooling was definitely an SA sign for Regen, too-- the first two days I came home, I thought she had peed in the crate it was so wet, but turned out it was drool. 

It's the most frustrating thing I've ever dealt with and the worst part was that there was no easy fix.


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## ponyfarm

My GSD rescue, got her as a puppy...was claustrophic. Would freak in a crate. So I gated her where I wanted her and she was happy. She never destroyed anything..(well, a screen once. Probably saw a rotten squirrel ! lol)


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## middleofnowhere

Let me repeat - Crates aren't for every dog.

She seemingly harms nothing outside of the crate. 

Humans sure are stuborn! And sometimes, I think, flat out stupid... Quit crating the dog. Got it? Just quit crating the dog.
If she's left in a room, leave her in the company of your other dog. Leave the radio on. Leave the TV on. Get a Kong Time.

Got it? 

I dunno - humans! Easier to train a dog any day!


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## Rerun

I would not leave her alone with Pimg all day while you are at work. That seems like a huge mistake waiting to happen. You don't have any idea how bad a bitch fight can be until you witness one, or the after effects of one. Pimg already showed some possession issues (normal) over her favorite toy, you don't want to risk an argument between them when you're away. I'm shocked people are suggesting you leave a female foster dog with issues alone with another female shepherd who's been an only dog. Bad, bad idea.

I will also reiterate - if you are going to stick with crating, you need to look at the REAL vari kennel that I posted. Not the cheapo thin plastic knock off. If you could see them in person side by side, you'd realize how much heavier duty and strong the real one is. The thin light weight ones can not hold a dog in that really wants out.


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## Alexandria610

Rerun said:


> I would not leave her alone with Pimg all day while you are at work. That seems like a huge mistake waiting to happen. You don't have any idea how bad a bitch fight can be until you witness one, or the after effects of one. Pimg already showed some possession issues (normal) over her favorite toy, you don't want to risk an argument between them when you're away. I'm shocked people are suggesting you leave a female foster dog with issues alone with another female shepherd who's been an only dog. Bad, bad idea.


TOOOOTALLY agree with you on that one. Even if the foster was male, I still wouldn't leave a new foster alone with Pimg. If I were to get a foster, I know I wouldn't let it be around my dogs without my supervision.

Honestly, I don't really let any of my dogs out together - there are too many things that could go wrong (especially since one is a small Chihuahua) and I don't want to have to worry about it.


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## wildo

middleofnowhere said:


> Humans sure are stuborn! And sometimes, I think, flat out stupid... Quit crating the dog. Got it?
> ...
> *leave her in the company of your other dog.*


Is this post for real? Yes, call me stupid all you like, but this bolded advice is lunacy. Never would I leave a new dog unsupervised with my dog. Daily Gretchen gets more comfortable and more willing to initiate play. Pimg does not tolerate puppy play. Leave them together unsupervised?? Pffft... you don't have to know anything about either dog to know that's a terrible idea. No thanks- call me stupid all you like.


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## NancyJ

Well one last thing to consider since you are so handy

I made crates at one time for my SUV out of a product called Gridwall - 
GRIDWALL PANELS & GRID CONNECTORS

We put a dog in that crate next to my dog and it was all good. {This dog had been traveling to a seminar and did not have his own crate and we were taking turns doing SAR scenarios). He was in my crate for over an hour with no damage. He was a nutcase of a dog. 

Next person who lent him space had the standard midwest wire crate in the back of her truck. In less than 15 minutes he completely destroyed it. I had never seen anything like that and so quickly.

The product is a 3 inch by 3 inch welded wire and I think it is 1/4 inch wire. VERY stout. They use it for store displays. You can find it sometimes at store closout sales or at retail fixture stores. Might be something to consider. We have zero skills and were able to rig something. Needed a bolt cutter to cut it.


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## wildo

Hey Nancy- thanks for that! I'll take a look at those panels...


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## middleofnowhere

wildo said:


> Is this post for real? Yes, call me stupid all you like, but this bolded advice is lunacy. Never would I leave a new dog unsupervised with my dog. Daily Gretchen gets more comfortable and more willing to initiate play. Pimg does not tolerate puppy play. Leave them together unsupervised?? Pffft... you don't have to know anything about either dog to know that's a terrible idea. No thanks- call me stupid all you like.


You don't need to let them have direct access to one another. Just in one another's company/sight. Maybe even try crating the dog that likes to be crated... If you continue to insist on crating Gretchen, try crating them side by side. 

Of course your older dog will put the puppy in it's place. That's the way it goes.


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