# Hanging.



## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Wow, someone brought this to light... Very disturbing. LONG read, but well worth it to be aware. I've seen Cesar Milan using hanging to make a dog nearly pass out. 
Stringing Up
Stephen Barry King animal cruelty casefile


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

Makes me sick to think about how many dogs he terrified!


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

APBTLove said:


> Wow, someone brought this to light... Very disturbing. LONG read, but well worth it to be aware. I've seen Cesar Milan using hanging to make a dog nearly pass out.
> http://www.inhumane.org/data/SBKing.htm


Like this?
http://leerburg.com/746.htm


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## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

APBTLove said:


> I've seen Cesar Milan using hanging to make a dog nearly pass out.


I've never seen Cesar Milan do anything that excessive; perhaps I missed that episode. What episode was it?

I find it ironic you criticize Cesar Milan when you have a history of seemingly defending and advocating dogfights (though you claimed you're not advocating dogfights; though much of what you've said on it to me seems to indicate otherwise).


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## jwb72 (Feb 12, 2010)

I don't like this article for 2 reasons. One, obviously is that it happens. No dog should go through that. Two, he says that departments that don't do this are the minority. Being an officer and working towards K9, I worked with K9 officers from several different agencies in different capacities and I only know of one who abused his dog. That officer no longer works for that agency and was brought up on charges. 
The rest of them loved them like one of their own kids. I guess there is a slant towards both sides to every story.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

I'm not trying to say this happens often, but it happens... I just can't believe some people call it training.

Let me find the video, at least one of them, as a couple seem to be taken off..
If you watch, the dog only starts getting after HIM when it cannot breath, he is keeping constant pressure on a choke chain high up it's neck. He also choked out a DA bulldog, while he was alpha rolling, he was pulling a choke chain hard with his other hand, THAT is the vid I can't find, but I will look. 





If you want to talk PM, do so, I really don't want this to turn into people saying I advocate dogfighting, because I'm well-learned about everything that goes on in it. If anyone wants to ask me any questions regarding bulldogs and ect, feel free to PM me, I am a friendly person and will take my time to answer you the best I can.. But I don't want this derailed.


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## SouthernThistle (Nov 16, 2005)

APBTLove said:


> If you want to talk PM, do so, I really don't want this to turn into people saying I advocate dogfighting, because I'm well-learned about everything that goes on in it. If anyone wants to ask me any questions regarding bulldogs and ect, feel free to PM me, I am a friendly person and will take my time to answer you the best I can.. But I don't want this derailed.


:thumbup:


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## Kaity (Nov 18, 2009)

Okay I dont really know a lot about dogs or anything but if that was MY dog in the video.. I would have been terrified for him/her.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Kaity said:


> Okay I dont really know a lot about dogs or anything but if that was MY dog in the video.. I would have been terrified for him/her.


Man if I took my dog to a trainer and he hoisted him up like so, I probably would have beaten him. That has to be one of the most dangerous 'methods' I've ever seen... Did you see where he was swinging the dog hard enough that it's choke chain broke?


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

I am disappointed that whoever is writing and maintaining the one website linked has painted schutzhund with such a broad brush. And the other website seems like it was written by a ticked-off ex-(fill in the blank). Which isn't to say that everything on it couldn't be true...just that it seems like a fairly unprofessional effort.

I know some old school obedience trainers who can give a pretty hearty leash correction, so I don't think schutzhund people should be singled out for their "abusive training". That seems like such an ignorant position to take, to be honest. 
Sheilah


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

That article has been around for years. I don't give it any more credence now than I did when I first read it years ago. One really has to just read it to see what a subjective, twisted propaganda piece it truly is. The person is obviously anti K9, anti SchH, anti pinch collar, anti a lot of things and stretching facts to fit her agenda.

Does that sort of thing happen? Yes. Is it widespread? No. And on most occasions when it does happen it is not what the article would make it out to be. It is a means of safely defusing a situation with a highly aggressive dog.

As for the Cesar Milan video. I'm not a Cesar fan, and yes that treatment is harsh and maybe unjustified, and I'm certainly not advocating hanging especially as a "training technique". BUT... what would you all do if a situation arises where you have a very large dog showing dog aggression, and then very quickly redirecting that to the handler (not just Cesar, but the video shows the dog turning and coming up leash at his owners as well). Let yourself get mauled? Or do whatever you had to do in that moment to protect yourself and shut down the dog's dangerous behavior?


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## smyke (Sep 24, 2009)

and what is that supposed to accomplish? submission? I just dont get it. 
"tough guys" I guess

good for that cop to step up and make some noise, but I can imagine how they must have hated him after that.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

APBTLove said:


> I'm not trying to say this happens often, but it happens... I just can't believe some people call it training.
> 
> Let me find the video, at least one of them, as a couple seem to be taken off..
> If you watch, the dog only starts getting after HIM when it cannot breath, he is keeping constant pressure on a choke chain high up it's neck. He also choked out a DA bulldog, while he was alpha rolling, he was pulling a choke chain hard with his other hand, THAT is the vid I can't find, but I will look.
> YouTube - Cesar Milan strangles dog til he collapses


That "dog" is more than likely a wolf hybrid, and that was covered earlier in the episode. The animal was extremely aggressive and had attacked the owners countless times. It had also already bitten CM numerous times drawing blood. Not small bites either.

If that was MY animal, I personally would be 100% ok with the methods employed. No one should allow an animal to behave like that. It is a danger to them, and a serious danger to society. That family had young kids. As CM frequently says, somewhere along the way people have been softened and many have come to believe it's ok if the dog bites them, but not ok for them to bite back.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I watched the Cesar clip 3 times. He corrects the dog, dog starts to come up the leash. A few seconds later, he gives the dog another correction and the dog comes up the leash violently. To me, it doesn't look like Cesar is trying to "hang" 'the dog or correct it, but to keep it from ripping his face off. How else can you handle a dog that is acting that handler aggressive? if he allows any slack on the leash, the dog is going to tear him to pieces.


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## Josiebear (Oct 16, 2006)

APBTLove said:


> I'm not trying to say this happens often, but it happens... I just can't believe some people call it training.
> 
> Let me find the video, at least one of them, as a couple seem to be taken off..
> If you watch, the dog only starts getting after HIM when it cannot breath, he is keeping constant pressure on a choke chain high up it's neck. He also choked out a DA bulldog, while he was alpha rolling, he was pulling a choke chain hard with his other hand, THAT is the vid I can't find, but I will look.
> ...


Wow i did not realize Cesar did the choking method!. I didn't watch every single episode so i didn't see this one or any method of hm strangling the dog... I respected the guy because he gets dogs...

But now... I just don't know other than WOW!. :shocked:


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## clfike (Mar 20, 2009)

First off, let me say that I am not an advocate of this method except in very, very extreme cases. I saw this done once at my obedience trainers. This was an extremely aggressive pitbull and he wanted to try everything he could to see if it could be saved. I have to admit, it was a very difficult thing to watch and I was crying right along with the owner. However, this was the most aggressive dog I've ever seen. He took the nastiest bite out of the trainers leg. This is someone who's been training dogs and police K-9s for 30 years, so he knows his stuff. He said he's never in his career seen a dog that he couldn't train but this was the one. He recommended euthanasia. She also had small children. It had been her husband's dog and he died suddenly and she wanted to see if the dog could be trained. It was a horribly sad situation. This was a reminder of her husband and she wanted to keep the dog. But after seeing what happened, though heartbroken, she was completely in agreement that this dog was way too dangerous.


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## smerry (Dec 5, 2009)

Chris Wild said:


> That article has been around for years. I don't give it any more credence now than I did when I first read it years ago. One really has to just read it to see what a subjective, twisted propaganda piece it truly is. The person is obviously anti K9, anti SchH, anti pinch collar, anti a lot of things and stretching facts to fit her agenda.
> 
> Does that sort of thing happen? Yes. Is it widespread? No.
> 
> As for the Cesar Milan video. I'm not a Cesar fan, and yes that treatment is harsh and maybe unjustified, and I'm certainly not advocating hanging especially as a "training technique". BUT... what would you all do if a situation arises where you have a very large dog showing dog aggression, and then very quickly redirecting that to the handler (not just Cesar, but the video shows the dog turning and coming up leash at his owners as well). Let yourself get mauled? Or do whatever you had to do in that moment to protect yourself and shut down the dog's dangerous behavior?


:thumbup: Ditto .....


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

I watched the video and see nothing wrong with it. That was absolutely the correct way to handle a seriously dominant aggressive dog that is trying to bite you. It doesn't look good to the general public, but it's necessary in that sort of situation and it works. It's an extreme correction for an extreme problem. Cesear didn't get angry and let him down as soon as he quit fighting him. 

As for the articles, wow, talk about slanted. I wouldn't pay any attention to that person after reading that as they clearly have such an anti everything attitude and know nothing about dog training.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Chris Wild said:


> That article has been around for years. I don't give it any more credence now than I did when I first read it years ago. One really has to just read it to see what a subjective, twisted propaganda piece it truly is. The person is obviously anti K9, anti SchH, anti pinch collar, anti a lot of things and stretching facts to fit her agenda.
> 
> Does that sort of thing happen? Yes. Is it widespread? No. And on most occasions when it does happen it is not what the article would make it out to be. It is a means of safely defusing a situation with a highly aggressive dog.


I agree with Chris. This is a very old propaganda article written by a person with an agenda.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

There are other ways to handle aggression without using choking. I am not surprised the dog became aggressive when given a correction. After it happened the first time you would think maybe he would try a different method?


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> There are other ways to handle aggression without using choking. I am not surprised the dog became aggressive when given a correction. After it happened the first time you would think maybe he would try a different method?


Just out of curiosity.... what other methods should have or could have been used? with a dog(s) like the one in the video?


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

but he didn't choke the dog, just gave a leash pop. he was only "choking" the dog because he was trying to hold it where it couldn't reach his body. the attack came first, then the choking. Even with a flat buckle collar, he would have ending up "hanging" the dog because there was no other way that I can see that he could hold the dog at a distance since it was intent on attacking. 

it's definitely not "normal" for a dog to react to a collar correction by attacking the handler to the point where he has to hold the dog at arm's length to keep it from biting.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

I say immediately removing him from the situation when he becomes aggressive, for extra security use a muzzle at first. Use positive reinforcement, slowly work your way to getting closer. Cesar goes for a quick fix, real training takes time and patience, you aren't going to switch a dogs thinking/reaction immediately. He uses pure force to make a dog do what he wants, and it's a temp fix..

Remember the canine disarming thread? Well, Cotton, the dog in the article, was one of the dogs he 'fixed', the behavior changed while he was there.

Cutting off blood flow and oxygen to a dog's brain is not training, it's cruelty. How is it better than beating a dog, in all honesty?


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Thanks for moving 

And I wanted to add that, IMO, it is wrong of them to make it sound like SchH is a brutal thing for dogs to do. They really had nothing good to say about it. I'm sure I could have found better pages on hanging to post, but those were the ones I had at hand. I'd say 99% of the dogs in SchH are NOT treated like that and they love what they do.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Chris Wild said:


> That article has been around for years. I don't give it any more credence now than I did when I first read it years ago. One really has to just read it to see what a subjective, twisted propaganda piece it truly is. The person is obviously anti K9, anti SchH, anti pinch collar, anti a lot of things and stretching facts to fit her agenda.
> 
> Does that sort of thing happen? Yes. Is it widespread? No. And on most occasions when it does happen it is not what the article would make it out to be. It is a means of safely defusing a situation with a highly aggressive dog.
> 
> As for the Cesar Milan video. I'm not a Cesar fan, and yes that treatment is harsh and maybe unjustified, and I'm certainly not advocating hanging especially as a "training technique". BUT... what would you all do if a situation arises where you have a very large dog showing dog aggression, and then very quickly redirecting that to the handler (not just Cesar, but the video shows the dog turning and coming up leash at his owners as well). Let yourself get mauled? Or do whatever you had to do in that moment to protect yourself and shut down the dog's dangerous behavior?


:thumbup:Also agree. I have seen a very well respected trainer (who works primarily positive for the majority of the obedience) work with a very aggressive dog and used a similar method with a dominant dog collar. Sometimes it is appropriate, and sometimes it is not. If you don't know the difference, then you have no business doing it, but that doesn't mean it's always wrong or bad.

Certainly not something I would try myself apart from the heat of the moment trying to keep the dog off of me. Although I cannot see any real reason I would need to, because a dog that would require that is not the dog for me and would be finding a new home.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

I found it. The 2nd time he pins her, you can clearly see him pulling in the leash with one hand, and pinning her neck with the other, behind her ears, tightening it, until she gives up. She was NOT Handler Aggressive, I did see her bite the leash at first in frustration.


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

Kind of just looks like he's trying to get control of her head so she'll stop flailing herself around and submit. :/

When I first read the article, it sounded horrible. It painted a picture of dogs being thrown up on the gallows and hung until they are a millisecond away from death because they didn't sit fast enough. But after watching the first caesar millan video, if that's all trainers are doing, I don't find it that horrible. If this is typical of most 'hanging' techniques(hanging to stop an aggressive dog when all other techniques don't work), I'd rather see a dog get hanged than put to sleep.


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

I am not a huge fan of Cesar in general, but I do think he handled the situation in the first video well. The dog went after him over a pop on the leash, and that's when he "strung" the dog up. 
I have been in similar situations with two dogs, and it may not be pretty, but it's either hang the dog or get seriously hurt. Positive motivation may not be right for every dog or every situation. 
At the kennel where I used to train, there were many positive motivation washouts and some seriously aggressive dogs. When faced with the option of the owners putting the dog to sleep vs. fixing the dog ASAP because the owners can't take it anymore...what's the better option? It's not a perfect world, and most people are not perfect dog owners.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

Yah I mean. That dog was TRYING to BITE HIM........!
I dont get it?
The dog ddnt pass out.....


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

And in the pitbull video...I see NOTHING wrong with that.
He did NOT HURT THE DOG.
I have to do this to my dog when he gets out of control. (NOT WITH A COLLAR just with my hands)
He needs to be PUT ON THE GROUND. He UNDERSTANDS he needs to stop.
I think he did great.
This is NOT what I thought "stringing up" was.
I thought they like picked them up by the collar?
This method is humane IMHO


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

I have seen someone hang their dog. This was in the Czech Republic a long time ago (long before it was renamed the Czech Republic). I don't know what this dog did (boxer type) but the owner took out a rope, threw it over a tree branch, tied the other end to the dog's collar and hung him. He hoisted the dog high too. It was terrible. We thought the dog was dead. Both my sister and I (around 16/17 years old) were screaming and crying and other members of the group had to hold back the two Canadian girls. They said this was common treatment of a dog missbehaving. And this was done in a public campground.

I will never ever forget that experience.


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## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

Dainerra said:


> I watched the Cesar clip 3 times. He corrects the dog, dog starts to come up the leash. A few seconds later, he gives the dog another correction and the dog comes up the leash violently. To me, it doesn't look like Cesar is trying to "hang" 'the dog or correct it, but to keep it from ripping his face off. How else can you handle a dog that is acting that handler aggressive? if he allows any slack on the leash, the dog is going to tear him to pieces.


Yep, I saw that eppie. He was bitten up pretty good and to me, that looked like what he was doing. Holding the leash high and away. The dogs paws were only off the ground when he jumped and yes, he was a wolf hybrid.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Raziel said:


> And in the pitbull video...I see NOTHING wrong with that.
> He did NOT HURT THE DOG.
> I have to do this to my dog when he gets out of control. (NOT WITH A COLLAR just with my hands)
> He needs to be PUT ON THE GROUND. He UNDERSTANDS he needs to stop.
> I think he did great.


No, watch the second time he pins her, he's using his other hand to pull the collar tight. I know he's not the only one who does it.


My next bit is not Directed at you, Raz 
But, again, I ask, how is hanging an aggressive dog in a manner of training it different from beating? Because I personally have seen a dog go for someone, the owner beat the **** out of it, and he didn't do it again.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

FuryanGoddess said:


> The dogs paws were only off the ground when he jumped and yes, he was a wolf hybrid.


I could choke the life out of my dog without lifting a single foot of his off the ground...

And while we're on it, I think that video really shows why wolves need not be pets, mixed or not... They are a hit or miss, you might get a mostly dog temperament, or you might get a wild animal who doesn't want to be controlled by weak owners.


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## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

yeah, I don't like the fact that they're used as pets. Wolves are wild animals, that's where they should say, IMHO


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

FuryanGoddess said:


> yeah, I don't like the fact that they're used as pets. Wolves are wild animals, that's where they should say, IMHO


I know... Just very sad. I contacted someone selling wolfdogs just because, and asked VERY ignorant questions... and it turns out she has a pure arctic wolf.. She said it was pure, but I'm not so sure, judging on looks.
and then there's this guy on Kijiji..

http://www.domesticsale.com/Classifieds/403648.html#bim
Okay, I'm done being off topic, the subject of breeding wolves to dogs for pets IRKS me...


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

he wasn't hanging the dog to train it. He was holding the dog to keep it from ripping him to pieces. Once the dog stopped trying to bite him, he then continued training...


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## VaBeachFamily (Apr 12, 2005)

Yea, ceasar is protecting himself. Did anyone notice how aggressive he was with everyone? The ripped shirt from being attacked physically by this dog?

How about... the fact that they have a child in the house! Someone needed to show the dog who was boss... and... the dog never passed out.. he calmed down... but no " unconcience" type of passing out. People find it way too easy to overreact about things. Get over it!!!

And, on the earlier note of dogfighting.... please remember that that is an illegal act, as well as cruel and violent.... so if anyone is involved, keep it to yourself!


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

I'm not saying CESAR hangs dogs, he DOES choke them... Instead of carring break sticks, when a bulldog breaks out in a fight he chokes them off. It's his method. The bulldog in the vid I posted was choked. Why do you think he had the leash like that instead of a collar? Because it chokes like a choke chain but won't break like one. 

I'm not saying Mr Milan is the only one who does it. 


Nobody has answered me yet, how is choking better than beating?
My boy hates new people, does that warrant me to beat him until he gives up? Or to wrap my hands around his throw and choke him until he never acts aggressively?


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

the point, though, is that the choking isn't the method used to teach the dog the correct way to behave. it is a management technique used on a dog that is actively attacking someone. There are other methods that may have worked, but once the situation began, that is how he managed it.

It's not like he chokes the dog and then expects it to behave appropriately. He kept the dog from attacking him, then proceeded training it on the correct way to behave


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

But hanging isn't always in the act of defending yourself... just a complete a-hole here doing it:


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

APBTLove said:


> But, again, I ask, how is hanging an aggressive dog in a manner of training it different from beating? Because I personally have seen a dog go for someone, the owner beat the **** out of it, and he didn't do it again.


Actually, there is a HUGE difference.

Hanging the dog helps keep the handler and anyone else around safe.
It also responds to and stops the dog's aggression in a NON aggressive manner. This is KEY to dealing with aggression issues. The trainer must not back down, but also must not feed into the situation with his own aggression in response to the dog. When done as Cesar showed in that video, with the human remaining calm and assertive and not feeding into the dog's aggression and making it worse by getting aggressive himself, it not only diffuses the situation and shuts down the behavior, but it also can serve as a correction that makes an impression on the dog that can have a positive influence on the dog's behavior.

It is not a kind and gentle manner, no. But it is also not the equivalent of beating nor is it the same as hanging a dog over a tree as someone earlier mentioned. There is never any reason to ever do that, as it is nothing short of abuse and would be no different from beating. But what Cesar did in this video can be very effective dealing with dogs with severe aggression issues. I'm not talking about normal dogs with easily fixed aggression issues, I'm talking about extreme cases as a last resort. 

I think a lot of people here have no experience with truly extreme aggressive dogs. Thankfully I've never had to deal with a dog like that myself, but I have known dogs like that and seen this sort of technique used in real life on a few occasions with extremely aggressive dogs. And it was the correct response in that situation, and many times an effective one that saved the dog from being put down. All the +R in the world is not going to work on some dogs.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

I dont think Beating and choking are the same thing....not by a long shot.
Beating is a physical act of hurting an animal with your hands or other object.
Choking is well, just pulling on the leash.....
Shock collars are cruel too then.
All dogs are different in training methods. I do not agree with beating or shocking a dog to get it to listen.
But let me say this.....which I KNOW I will get bashed for.
My dog HAS TO BE scared of me.
Or else HE WOULD NOT listen. He walks ALL OVER me when I say "no" "stop" etc IF HE IS IN THAT DRIVE MODE. 
AS SOON as I take his pinch collar out...HE STOPS what he is doing, bc he is scared of it.
Dog have to be a little bit scared of you. I mean, I was scared of my parents but they didnt beat me......
I think he was just trying to get the dog to settle.
Kilo likes to play tug & get a little rough with me and I have NO problem with this game. But when I say "ENOUGH" he is expected to stop.
And when he doesnt I hold his body to the floor until he stops wiggling.
I KNOW it doesnt hurt him.
Its a message saying " I have had enough of this game"
He gets it.
Dogs respond well to BODY language rather than WORDS.
I know my dog does.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

Chris Wild said:


> Actually, there is a HUGE difference.
> 
> Hanging the dog helps keep the handler and anyone else around safe.
> It also responds to and stops the dog's aggression in a NON aggressive manner. This is KEY to dealing with aggression issues. The trainer must not back down, but also must not feed into the situation with his own aggression in response to the dog. When done as Cesar showed in that video, with the human remaining calm and assertive and not feeding into the dog's aggression and making it worse by getting aggressive himself, it not only diffuses the situation and shuts down the behavior, but it also can serve as a correction that makes an impression on the dog that can have a positive influence on the dog's behavior.
> ...


:thumbup:


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

All dogs ARE different. I suppose some need physical correction. 

And I know that is what it turned into, mostly discussing Cesar's vid I posted showing some trainers sneak choking in... But I made the thread for real hanging. I actually saw someone do this to a pup who was acting up. It was the most pitiful thing I've ever seen. 

Are you saying the dog doesn't know that you are the one causing his pain when you hoist him up, like he would if you were to hit him? I would call choking, or hanging, aggressive, even if it's done by a person who's mind is prancing through a field of kittens, completely happy, it's physically aggressive, just as hitting is. 

I feel this is a good discussion, I guess you could say I'm playing devil's advocate, because I agree with much of what you've said, Chris. But I'm asking the first questions that come to mind, and would to some readers...


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## VaBeachFamily (Apr 12, 2005)

I am disturbed sitting here watching that video! And no, that is NOT correct, but in the care of Ceasar, that was not abuse, and should not have been posted in that manner.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

When I saw the technique used it was with an over-the-top fear aggressive dog whose next stop was probably the vet's office, and it was actually very non-confrontational. No one looked at the dog, no one yelled at the dog, there was just strong pressure applied through the leash to the collar to stop the dog from escalating. The dog was muzzled for the safety of the trainer, but it allowed the dog to learn that aggressive responses didn't work, and by the end the dog had *started* to relax and learn to cope.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

APBTLove said:


> Are you saying the dog doesn't know that you are the one causing his pain when you hoist him up, like he would if you were to hit him? I would call choking, or hanging, aggressive, even if it's done by a person who's mind is prancing through a field of kittens, completely happy, it's physically aggressive, just as hitting is.


To the dog's mind, they are 2 very different things due to the amount of physical energy, emotion and activity involved and the psychological impact they have on the dog.

When hanging, the handler is in control of the dog, but also of himself. And the dog sees that. The calmness with which the handler performs the action is a huge part of this having the desired effect or backfiring. This, combined with the fact that hanging will cause the dog to settle down and submit (and that does NOT require the dog even having his air cut off to the point of choking), is why it can work on this type of dog. It's not about physically dominating the dog, it's about mentally dominating the dog. Dogs this extreme tend to be very dominant and very much used to their aggression being successful. Hanging can be effective because it addresses both issues, the aggression becomes UNsuccessful in a big way and the dog gets dominated himself by someone who, to the dog's viewpoint, isn't even breaking a sweat in doing it.

Think of it this way. You're a punk who thinks she should own the world, everyone should bow to your demands, and you have learned in life that if someone doesn't immediately do what you want, being aggressive toward them will bully them into compliance every time.

Then one day you run into someone who stands up to you, and when you get aggressive they get aggressive right back and the two of you end up in a brawl. You get your butt kicked, but the other person had to really exert themselves physically to beat you. Next time, you *might* avoid that person and not try to bully them again. Or you may very well decide that you've just got to be a bit quicker, a bit stronger, get in the first shot before they see it coming and with that little advantage, picking your time and place, your chances of winning this time will be good. After all, you've won every other time before.

On another day, you run into someone who fends you off without barely lifting a finger, all the while remaining calm and cool and collected and completely unimpressed and unbothered by your febel efforts no matter how hard you struggle and fight them. They so far out power you, they don't even have to try, and they are so confident in their ability to overpower you that they don't get the least bit worried or intimidated by you. I bet you'd give that person a wide berth from here on out, and it wouldn't even cross your mind to try again being just a bit quicker or trying a bit harder next time because the person so far out classes you that you know it wouldn't matter a bit.

See the difference? Which of those would have you seriously questioning your approach to the world, and maybe considering adopting some new attitudes and ways of interacting with people?


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## smerry (Dec 5, 2009)

Chris Wild said:


> To the dog's mind, they are 2 very different things due to the amount of physical energy, emotion and activity involved and the psychological impact they have on the dog.
> 
> When hanging, the handler is in control of the dog, but also of himself. And the dog sees that. The calmness with which the handler performs the action is a huge part of this having the desired effect or backfiring. This, combined with the fact that hanging will cause the dog to settle down and submit (and that does NOT require the dog even having his air cut off to the point of choking), is why it can work on this type of dog. It's not about physically dominating the dog, it's about mentally dominating the dog. Dogs this extreme tend to be very dominant and very much used to their aggression being successful. Hanging can be effective because it addresses both issues, the aggression becomes UNsuccessful in a big way and the dog gets dominated himself by someone who, to the dog's viewpoint, isn't even breaking a sweat in doing it.
> 
> ...


:thumbup:


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Lovely post Chris... If my debate-loving mind comes up with more ways to question everyone I shall post them.

I mean, I don't personally agree with either hitting or hanging a dog unless you have thoroughly exhausted everything else, and by thoroughly I mean _thoroughly_.


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

APBTLove said:


> And I know that is what it turned into, mostly discussing Cesar's vid I posted showing some trainers sneak choking in... But I made the thread for real hanging.


Then you probably should not have said you have seen Cesar hanging dogs and equate it with what the link describes.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Doesn't anyone else notice in the Pit BUll video that the dog is clearly out of air? He even has to loosen the leash from around her neck because it is so tight. It is obvious she "gave up" because she could no longer breath, not because she is now "submissive". It is interesting to me that so many people here feel that this is a good training method. The APBT was not handler aggressive nor was CM doing choking her for anyone's safety. It is obviously part of his "method" to use on dogs who aren't intimidated by being poked at.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Could the dog be exhausted/winded because of the struggle it put up? The dog was physically fighting against what the handler was trying do?



> The APBT was not handler aggressive nor was CM doing choking her for anyone's safety. It is obviously part of his "method" to use on dogs who aren't intimidated by being poked at.


I would say yes there was a safety issue at hand.. From what they said, the dog was extremely dog aggressive?

I still don't consider the vids of CM "hanging" in the sense that I know..


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

That dog was NOT being choked in those videos.
The dog GAVE UP. Its obvious the dogs was still very much awake....


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

AgileGSD said:


> Doesn't anyone else notice in the Pit BUll video that the dog is clearly out of air? He even has to loosen the leash from around her neck because it is so tight. It is obvious she "gave up" because she could no longer breath, not because she is now "submissive".


What I see is a dog choking itself struggling to get at and probably try to kill another dog. And in both times he pins the dog he is looking to grab her by her harness or restrain her without choking her, to lessen the amount she is choking herself.



> It is interesting to me that so many people here feel that this is a good training method. The APBT was not handler aggressive nor was CM doing choking her for anyone's safety.


It is interesting to me that so many seem to think that simply restraining a dog from killing another dog while assessing it's behavior is a "training method".

Nobody's safety was at risk? 
How about the safety of the other dog she was fighting so hard to get free to go kill? 
Should he just let her go and watch her go try to kill it? 
Should he just pull up on the leash and hang her and really choke her out?
Should he just let her pull and fight until she choked herself out?

Or should he do what he did and use minimum force necessary to restrain her and calm her down while the other dog was removed from the situation. The dog likely gave up not because of choking or exhaustion but but because it could no longer see the other dog, it's target.



> It is obviously part of his "method" to use on dogs who aren't intimidated by being poked at.


It is obviously just a behavior assessment. He was called to help with this dogs behavior problems, to do so he needs to see and assess the dogs behavior problem. He did just that, it is not part of training or a cure.

If you watch the episode, you see his assessment is that the dog was not socialized, and has anxiety issues around other dogs that is triggering aggression, and he took the dog and socialized her with all his dogs over several weeks of time before slowly introducing her back to her owners. That was his "training method", socialization with 30 or so other dogs.

And I would bet the dingy girl who owns the dog was not able to follow through and had it right back to trying to kill other dogs within a few weeks or months.


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## BuoyantDog (Aug 21, 2009)

sit said:


> I am disappointed that whoever is writing and maintaining the one website linked has painted schutzhund with such a broad brush. And the other website seems like it was written by a ticked-off ex-(fill in the blank). Which isn't to say that everything on it couldn't be true...just that it seems like a fairly unprofessional effort.
> 
> I know some old school obedience trainers who can give a pretty hearty leash correction, so I don't think schutzhund people should be singled out for their "abusive training". That seems like such an ignorant position to take, to be honest.
> Sheilah


See above.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

TxRider said:


> What I see is a dog choking itself struggling to get at and probably try to kill another dog. And in both times he pins the dog he is looking to grab her by her harness or restrain her without choking her, to lessen the amount she is choking herself.
> 
> It is interesting to me that so many seem to think that simply restraining a dog from killing another dog while assessing it's behavior is a "training method".


 If the dog is that much of risk, the dog should not be worked without a muzzle. Why take the risk that the dog will get loose if it is going to kill another dog or attack someone? If he is taking dogs out in public which are that serious of a threat, it is extremely irresponsible to not have them muzzled. 

Putting an aggressive or reactive dog over threshold, then strangling it when it reacts is not really doing anyone any good and certainly isn't creating "clam submissive" dogs. Just about any animal will start fighting for their life when their airway is being cut off.


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

AgileGSD said:


> If the dog is that much of risk, the dog should not be worked without a muzzle. Why take the risk that the dog will get loose if it is going to kill another dog or attack someone? If he is taking dogs out in public which are that serious of a threat, it is extremely irresponsible to not have them muzzled.
> 
> Putting an aggressive or reactive dog over threshold, then strangling it when it reacts is not really doing anyone any good and certainly isn't creating "clam submissive" dogs. Just about any animal will start fighting for their life when their airway is being cut off.


He is assessing how much of a risk the dog is in the video, he has never seen this dog before. 

How do you propose to learn what behavior the dog exhibits, how bad it is, and what triggers it without actually seeing the behavior occur?

And it would appear he didn't risk the dog getting loose, which is what you have a problem with. His restraint of the dog.

He didn't strangle it.

As I said before, the next thing that happens is he tells the owners this is a serious case, and takes the dog for weeks of socialization with many other dogs at his place under controlled conditions. Socialization, what an evil practice and harmful method.


So your saying he should have muzzled the dog, and then let it go with a muzzle on to attack the other dog instead of holding the leash even if the dog chokes itself struggling? I doubt the other dog would agree.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

And as far as a muzzle goes, while they can provide a bit of safety they are not conducive to assessing behavior, or for changing behavior, because unless well acclimated to wearing a muzzle most dogs will act very differently with a muzzle on. 

A muzzled dog is inclined to be evey more aggressive, out of worry and fear, because he is well aware he is muzzled and his primary defense is neutralized. Just like we wouldn't like to have our hands tied behind our backs. Just doing it would stress us out. Now tie our hands behind our backs and put us in an otherwise stressful situation, and the stress has been magnified tremendously. This would be particularly prolematic in assessment, because one couldn't be sure what behavior is normal and what is due to the muzzle.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

TxRider said:


> So your saying he should have muzzled the dog, and then let it go with a muzzle on to attack the other dog instead of holding the leash even if the dog chokes itself struggling? I doubt the other dog would agree.


 Why in the world would you think I would suggest this dog being loose? The dog was not "choking herself".


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

AgileGSD said:


> Why in the world would you think I would suggest this dog being loose? The dog was not "choking herself".


Why the suggestion for a muzzle then?

As for the dog choking itself, how could it be anything different. I he is standing there not moving and the dog goes berserk trying to fight to get to the other dog and get off the leash to the point of choking, the dog is choking itself.

It is the one pulling it's neck tight and it could stop it it any time simply by just standing still.

Cesar has two options, hold the leash and let the dog fight to get loose and choke itself doing so, or let the leash go and let the dog go attack the other dog. If he wanted to choke the dog out he could have, but he clearly doesn't.

I do not see him pulling the dog's front legs off the ground or doing anything more than simply calmly keeping the dog restrained as it thrashes around, then laying it on it's side, actively trying to prevent choking it out while not letting it go attack the other dog.


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## julies'omom (Feb 23, 2010)

wow, I have to jump in here. I have been trainning and working with dogs eversince I was old enough to walk. I have made friends with dogs no one else could get near and never received a dog bite. I have taught obedience classes for the well behaved pet for forty years. And I have seen a few dogs I would not care to have around. I learned a very long time ago that I do not know all there is to know and never will. However, a dog like this one that Ceaser is working with I probably , at this point in my life would not even bother with. Tell me how you would train this large bulky animal. I have trainned with a few of the most experienced trainners. And I know this is what they would do. Sometimes there are no simple answers. A dog agressive dog can be a real liability. I just am wondering what you would do differently.

juliles'omom


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

TxRider said:


> Why the suggestion for a muzzle then?
> 
> 
> I do not see him pulling the dog's front legs off the ground or doing anything more than simply calmly keeping the dog restrained as it thrashes around, then laying it on it's side, actively trying to prevent choking it out while not letting it go attack the other dog.


 Interesting that you feel he is trying to prevent the dog from choking. I suggested a muzzle because someone suggested that he had to strangle this dog because the other dog's life was in danger. In many place, dogs who pose that serious of a threat to other dogs or humans are required to be muzzled in public for everyone's safety. And if the dog is indeed that dangerous, responsible management would indicate the dog should be muzzled in public (and have more than just one slip lead restraining it) because there are too many "what if's" concerning the dog getting loose or being approached by the other dog otherwise.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Raziel said:


> But when I say "ENOUGH" he is expected to stop.
> And when he doesnt I hold his body to the floor until he stops wiggling.


Maybe I'm reading too much conflict into this, but. . . what's to keep him from eating your face when you do this?


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

Emoore said:


> Maybe I'm reading too much conflict into this, but. . . what's to keep him from eating your face when you do this?


Is that a joke?
Hes MY DOG. I do NOT FEAR MY DOG. We are PLAYING, he doesnt know when to stop. I hold him down. He knows he has to listen to me.
He understands BODY LANGUAGE better than words.
I DO NOT HURT MY DOG. Didnt you see that part?!
Thanks for the smarta** comment anyways.........


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

Raziel said:


> Is that a joke?
> Hes MY DOG. I do NOT FEAR MY DOG. We are PLAYING, he doesnt know when to stop. I hold him down. He knows he has to listen to me.
> He understands BODY LANGUAGE better than words.
> I DO NOT HURT MY DOG. Didnt you see that part?!
> Thanks for the smarta** comment anyways.........


PS He can kill me whenever he wants. He doesnt because he respects me and loves me. Thats WHY he doesnt eat my face


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

I think emotions are running a little too high in this thread.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

But that comment was uncalled for.


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

AgileGSD said:


> Interesting that you feel he is trying to prevent the dog from choking. I suggested a muzzle because someone suggested that he had to strangle this dog because the other dog's life was in danger. In many place, dogs who pose that serious of a threat to other dogs or humans are required to be muzzled in public for everyone's safety. And if the dog is indeed that dangerous, responsible management would indicate the dog should be muzzled in public (and have more than just one slip lead restraining it) because there are too many "what if's" concerning the dog getting loose or being approached by the other dog otherwise.


And if he was walking this dog at a park an taking it around in public i would agree, a muzzle might be appropriate.

But when doing an initial assessment of a dog, controlled with another known non reactive dog the muzzle could likely interfere. There aren't very many what if's in that situation.

He didn't have to strangle the dog, and he didn't do so. He simply held the dog in place with the leash as it threw a fit trying to get to the dog he brought along to assess it's behavior and laid it on it's side when it exhausted itself.

After assessing he brought it his place to socialize it with other dogs so it could be around them without so much anxiety. That was his method for getting the dog to be calm around other dogs, weeks of socialization, not that clip of his initial assessment picked out of context and waved around as being his "method" for helping that dog..

That clip is only his method of restraining a dog when it goes into a fit of aggression. It also uses two of the quads of operant conditioning, negative punishment by calmly restraining the dog(removing something rewarding to reduce the occurrence of the behavior) followed by positive punishment (adding an averisive to reduce the occurence of a behavior) as laying the dog on it' side is a mild aversive.


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## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

I think there was a muzzle on the dog to begin w/ and he took it off.. i can't be sure.


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## MansBestFriend (Jan 24, 2010)

Just my two cents but I didnt see anything wrong with the way he handled the dog. It was extremely handler aggressive and if Cesar can tame that wild beast, he may be saving a life in the future..including the dogs.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

TxRider said:


> That clip is only his method of restraining a dog when it goes into a fit of aggression. It also uses two of the quads of operant conditioning, negative punishment by calmly restraining the dog(removing something rewarding to reduce the occurrence of the behavior) followed by positive punishment (adding an averisive to reduce the occurence of a behavior) as laying the dog on it' side is a mild aversive.


_ Mild_ aversive? OK... :crazy: Anyway I thought he wasn't training the dog here but "evaluating" it.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Raziel said:


> But that comment was uncalled for.


Not really. You said in your post that your dog needs to fear you, and then you went on to say that you hold him down until he stops wiggling.
Oh here it is:


Raziel said:


> My dog HAS TO BE scared of me. . .Or else HE WOULD NOT listen. AS SOON as I take his pinch collar out...HE STOPS what he is doing, bc he is scared of it.. . . . .
> [snip]
> And when he doesnt I hold his body to the floor until he stops wiggling.


 If someone that I feared held me down so I couldn't get away until I stopped wiggling, I'd do my best to rip their face off. As I said before, it may be that the way you described it makes it sound like more of a conflict than it really is, but that's the way it sounded to me.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

Emoore said:


> Not really. You said in your post that your dog needs to fear you, and then you went on to say that you hold him down until he stops wiggling.
> Oh here it is:
> 
> 
> If someone that I feared held me down so I couldn't get away until I stopped wiggling, I'd do my best to rip their face off. As I said before, it may be that the way you described it makes it sound like more of a conflict than it really is, but that's the way it sounded to me.


First of all, you dont know how my dog is. Or how we interact.
Your pretty annoying to get on this thread an think of yourself all high and mighty.
I take my dog and keep him on the floor when he is misbehaving and jumping on me. This is RARE I need to do this. 
He could EASILY hurt me.
My dog WOULD NEVER bite me. EVER EVER. YOU are not a dog so you dont know how dogs think.
He has respect for me, THATS why he wouldnt bite me. What dont you get about that?
If I did it to a STRANGE DOG yah, Im sure I would get bit.
But we rough play, and when I say enough hes expected to stop.
If not, then I just hold him and wait until he stops wiggling and jumping.
So I dont get why you keep bringing it up?


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

A couple videos of aggressive dogs being worked without the trainer "having" to strangle them:





 
ABRI


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## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

APBTLove said:


> I've seen Cesar Milan using hanging to make a dog nearly pass out.


I asked you before to post a video or tell me the episode that this allegedly happened, yet you still have not. I feel you are slandering and defaming Cesar Milan. I haven’t seen any video of a dog nearly passing out from being “strangled” by Cesar Milan.


APBTLove said:


> If you watch, the dog only starts getting after HIM when it cannot breath
> YouTube - Cesar Milan strangles dog til he collapses


You lie. You are slandering and defaming Cesar Milan. 
The dog barked when it attacked Cesar Milan. Clearly a dog that barks can breathe. It’s hard to believe that your that ignorant of physiology; so I suspect you are deliberately smearing Cesar Milan.
This dog has a history of biting/attacking the owners. Because the owners were using politically correct techniques on a red case dog; they were enabling an escalating the dogs increasingly dominant and violent behavior. It took Cesar Milan to reverse this trend. The owners apparently would back off when the dog would attack or become aggressive; this only an emboldened the dog to become more aggressive and more controlling. 
If Cesar would have let up on the leash it would have emboldened the dog that was trying to attack the smaller dog. The dog was trying attack Cesar protesting Cesar preventing the malamute/husky type of dog from approaching and possibly attacking the smaller dog. If Cesar would’ve let up on a leash the dog could be more dangerous to Cesar. If Cesar would have released a leash the dog may have continued to attack Cesar or/and may have attacked or killed the smaller dog.
　


APBTLove said:


> I'm well-learned about everything that goes on in it.


The fact is in the past you have defended dog fighting by saying that the dogs in dog fighting get better care and treatment than most other dogs.
Sure some winners get some royal treatment and get some of the best food and medical treatment inbetween their fights; but then the fight in the ring is cruel; and typically they only get good treatment when they are winning; when a dog develops a pattern of losing the fighting dogs are typically abused, neglected, used as bait dogs, and or killed.
I find it hypocritical that you attack Cesar Milan with slander as if he was cruel; yet you defend and subtly advocate dog fighting.


Elaine said:


> I watched the video and see nothing wrong with it. That was absolutely the correct way to handle a seriously dominant aggressive dog that is trying to bite you. It doesn't look good to the general public, but it's necessary in that sort of situation and it works. It's an extreme correction for an extreme problem. Cesear didn't get angry and let him down as soon as he quit fighting him.
> As for the articles, wow, talk about slanted. I wouldn't pay any attention to that person after reading that as they clearly have such an anti everything attitude and know nothing about dog training.


:thumbup:


Chicagocanine said:


> There are other ways to handle aggression without using choking. I am not surprised the dog became aggressive when given a correction. After it happened the first time you would think maybe he would try a different method?


You’re ignoring the facts. The fact is that other more politically correct methods were used by the owners and those politically correct other techniques are what enabled and escalated this aggressive dominant dog behavior. Part of the problem is that the owners did not stand up to their dog when their dog became aggressive and violent; Cesar Milan simply undid the damage that has been done by caving into the dog and using politically correct methods.


APBTLove said:


> I say immediately removing him from the situation when he becomes aggressive, for extra security use a muzzle at first. Use positive reinforcement, slowly work your way to getting closer. Cesar goes for a quick fix, real training takes time and patience, you aren't going to switch a dogs thinking/reaction immediately. He uses pure force to make a dog do what he wants, and it's a temp fix..
> Remember the canine disarming thread? Well, Cotton, the dog in the article, was one of the dogs he 'fixed', the behavior changed while he was there.
> Cutting off blood flow and oxygen to a dog's brain is not training, it's cruelty. How is it better than beating a dog, in all honesty?


Once again you seem to be slandering/defaming Cesar Milan.
You seem to be trying to say or imply that Cesar Milan is “cutting off blood flow and oxygen to a dog's brain”. 
Can you support such outlandish claims? I doubt it. The closest I’ve seen; his dogs “hanging” themselves by resisting. Or when Cesar lifts the leash or grabs the dog by the neck when the dog is attacking a human or another dog (under those circumstances the response I have seen from Cesar has been appropriate). I don’t recollect any case where a dog was hypoxic. 


APBTLove said:


> I found it.YouTube - Cesar's Toughest Cases.m4v


There’s nothing wrong with what Cesar Milan did in that video. The dog is not strangulated, there is no blood flow cut off to the brain. What Cesar Milan did was right. The dog was trying to get its way to confront or kill the other dog, the dog was trying to control the situation, Cesar Milan was teaching the dog that the handler is the controller and that wild and or unfounded aggressive behavior is not tolerable.


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## Doubleminttwin (Aug 21, 2009)

Ceasar Milan has a rep on germanshepherds who would have thunk it  

I don't like Ceasar milan but I don't dislike him either. I just don't think hes that great. After watching an episode where he tried to make a GD get into a bath and when he couldn't get it to do what he wanted he made excuses to make it sound like he was in control, I kind of lost respect for the guy.

For what its worth I only watched the second video and he was definetly pulling on the leash while the dog was on the ground. I don't agree w/that method and if he tried it on Baya I would punch him in the face.


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## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

APBTLove said:


> But hanging isn't always in the act of defending yourself... just a complete a-hole here doing it:
> YouTube - WFMY News 2 - Police K-9 Training


I think it’s a very dramatic to say what Cesar is doing is “hanging” and dramatic and dishonest to try to seemingly subtly equivocate abusive police officer is doing to Cesar Milan‘s behavior. It’s entirely different. The police officer is clearly abusive. I feel the police officer should face animal cruelty charges, should be fired and barred from police service, and barred from having a pet. If he has a family I would be tempted to investigate his family life to see if he is abusive to other family members.


APBTLove said:


> But, again, I ask, how is hanging an aggressive dog in a manner of training it different from beating?


You’re being very much a dishonest drama queen calling “hanging” when controlling a dog a dog’s choke collar is cinched tight, or when the dog “hangs” itself in the air by the collar fighting the dog handler to try to attack a dog, or by lifting a dog partly into the air when the dog is threatening the life of a person or another animal.

　
There’s a big difference between “hanging” a dog in a legitimate fashion that is for restraint and discipline that doesn’t really hurt the dog; compared to really hanging a dog in an abusive fashion that causes physical and psychological harm.
　

Beating an animal is not a legitimate form of discipline. Though I wouldn’t be surprised if you equivocate a swat as beating. On rare occasion I will swat a dog, though I’m careful where and how and why I swat a dog. I used to swat my first dog on the hind end as kind of a spanking when he did something wrong, but my vet corrected me and said that it would be more appropriate to swat him on the muzzle; because swatting a dog on the hind end could harm the hips/aggravate dysplasia, and swatting on the muzzle more closely resembles natural canine discipline. As dogs will often muzzle each other to dominate and discipline. Swatting is not to cause pain, it’s symbolic.
　

There is a big difference. Beating an animal is to hurt and to inflict pain on an animal which is wrong, it is abuse. Restraining/controlling a dog with a choke collar properly is not abuse.


APBTLove said:


> I mean, I don't personally agree with either hitting or hanging a dog unless you have thoroughly exhausted everything else, and by thoroughly I mean _thoroughly_.


I find it ironic that your icon personal photo has a dog that is poorly disciplined and partially being “hung“. Though the dog’s feet is not in the air it looks like there’s enough force on that leash that is just painful for me to think about what it would do to my back. There’s probably about 20 to 40 pounds of force on the dog’s neck that the handler is “hanging” the dog with. Maybe you should confront that dog handler about how abusive he is being?  ( just using a little dramatics like you, to show your hypocrisy)

The amount of force and the type of force depends on the circumstances. Normally it should not be necessary to inflict pain or to cause injury; however if there is an immediate threat of bodily harm or injury I have no qualms with inflicting pain, bodily injury or death whether it be an animal or human. 


AgileGSD said:


> It is obvious she "gave up" because she could no longer breath, not because she is now "submissive".


False. The dog could obviously breathe; the dog’s abdomen and mouthparts indicated that the dog was breathing throughout the alleged “hanging”.
　
The dog clearly submitted because it was exhausted and realized it could not win.


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## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

AgileGSD said:


> If he is taking dogs out in public which are that serious of a threat, it is extremely irresponsible to not have them muzzled.


Not necessarily. Evidently you’ve never heard of fear aggression. Sometimes putting a dog on a muzzle or a leash or some other confinement can actually make them more aggressive; this is particularly common in evidence in fear aggression.
　
Also having a muzzle on the dog might hinder the learning experience for the dog.


AgileGSD said:


> The dog was not "choking herself".


The dog was clearly choking itself. The way a choke collar is designed it so that when it is used properly the more a dog resists the dog handler the more it chokes the dog. The dog repeatedly chokes itself trying to yank itself away from the handler; at one point the dog even jumps up in the air and away so was essentially hanging itself off the ground on the collar.


AgileGSD said:


> A couple videos of aggressive dogs being worked without the trainer "having" to strangle them:
> YouTube - gentle leader jean donaldson e Ian Dunbar.flv
> ABRI


That dog doesn’t appear to be aggressive: it appears to be excited and poorly disciplined/trained. Though that dog may be rather wild it doesn’t seem to be a red zone case.
　
At 2:07 minutes into the video the dog handler is using a gentle leader and the dog is being hung in a fashion that could break its neck. Gentle leaders can be very dangerous and it is being used rather recklessly here. Thankfully she doesn’t have much leash ran out, but regretfully the dog handler is using a long leash which can be very dangerous.
　
Gentle leaders can be very dangerous in the wrong hands or if there is a mistake. You’re not supposed to use a long leash with a gentle leader because the dog can get a run storing up energy; as a leash goes taught it will yank the neck to the side which can cause pain, paralysis and death. If the dog gets loose with the leash and if the leash snags on something it could cause the same type of injury.
　
I’ve seen a dog injured to the extent that its rear legs became paralyzed when the dog handler was using a gentle collar in a very similar fashion as in this video.
　
Though it may look more politically correct I think this video is more dangerous to the dog than what Cesar Malan was doing. I would suspect that someone that doesn’t know much about dogs and physiology to think this video is more appropriate.
You have to be very careful when using a gentle leader/halter collar because if they are used improperly they could injure or kill the dog.


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## JOSHUA SAMPSON (Feb 21, 2010)

I have heard of this before ( i read a LOT, (no really i mean like an encyclopedias worth of info)) Obviously using this method on any normal dog is EXTREMELY unacceptable. The only situation I could think of is if you have a dog who is so handler aggressive that he cannot be walked, handled, corrected, or anything without attempting to attack the handler. I have only heard of this once before on the leerburg website in one of their MANY articles, I think. I recall this being a last resort technique before just giving up and putting the dog down. the idea was that When the dog is so highly dominant and agressive that you have two people and one of them is behind a blind (or otherwise out of sight) holding a long choke leash. The other is the handler who attempts to interact with the dog by simple training method, such as asking the dog to sit while offering a reward, then when the dog doesnt sit and the handler issues a standard correction, which of course is going to send the highly agressive dog into an agression fit. that's when the second person pulls on the choke leash and blacks out the dog. again this is a method i heard of that would require 2 very experienced trainers, who are probably trying to save this kind of dog from having to be put down in the first place. and If the aggressive dog can be taught some kind of basic manners then ,maybe he could still have a long and rewarding life. I would assume that in order to get a dog to this point it would involve some gross mishandling by the original owner of the dog, involving poor pack leadership and little to no adequate corrections toward bad behavior. I for one have never had a dog that would warrant this level of corrections. and the article at the top seems atrocious to me that someone would do that to a dog for no good reason.


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## JOSHUA SAMPSON (Feb 21, 2010)

Yeah..... that video of Ceasar.... not being hung to blackout, definately not a hanging dog.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

Excellent posts Doggone.


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## mjbgsd (Jun 29, 2004)

Funny how we turned this into CM, lol. 



> That "dog" is more than likely a wolf hybrid, and that was covered earlier in the episode. The animal was extremely aggressive and had attacked the owners countless times. It had also already bitten CM numerous times drawing blood. Not small bites either.
> 
> If that was MY animal, I personally would be 100% ok with the methods employed. No one should allow an animal to behave like that. It is a danger to them, and a serious danger to society. That family had young kids. As CM frequently says, somewhere along the way people have been softened and many have come to believe it's ok if the dog bites them, but not ok for them to bite back.


I agree with this. CM did everything right, I'd rather do that then be bit over and over...

Nice post Doggone.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

AgileGSD said:


> A couple videos of aggressive dogs being worked without the trainer "having" to strangle them:


That dog is not being aggressive, only excited and obnoxious. And it is certainly not escalating aggression and turning it on the handler as the husky/wolfdog did.

Yet the technique and the way the trainer is executing it is exactly the same. The psychological impact on the dog is even the same.  The dog is being taught that acting out toward another dog, in this case due to excitement not aggression, is absolutely not allowed. Do it, and life will suck. You will be placed in a very uncomfortable position, physically and mentally. Your ability to do anything, even to escape the discomfort, will be removed. Your only option is to cease all action and submit totally. It's obvious this dog learned the exact same lesson that "strangling" would teach. Just look at the dog's body language at the end when approaching the other dog... the "trained" dog is much more worried about the human at the end of the leash than anything else and is afraid of what the human will do to him in the presence of the other dog.

The only difference between the techniques is the tool used. But the gentle leader is PC piece of equipment, so it is viewed as acceptable. Never mind that with the use of the GL in this case is risking serious and irreversible spinal damage. But it's ok because it looks "gentle"?:shrug:


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## pinkanml (Sep 3, 2007)

Great post, Chris. That is one of my biggest peeves about head halters, that people think it's fine to squeeze a dog's muzzle shut and tug its head around--often to the point that I've seen a lot of dogs with baldness/sores on their muzzle. But apparently, using the same technique on a much stronger, less sensitive part of the dog's body is cruel and barbaric punishment?

I think people need to get over themselves and realize that dogs are strong, powerful animals and not these fragile little creatures that should be tiptoed around and catered to so as not to cause the slightest bit of emotional or physical discomfort when acting in a completely unacceptable manner like some of the dogs shown. I just don't get it. Same thing goes for kids these days, but that is a whole different topic I don't want to get started on...


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Raziel said:


> So I dont get why you keep bringing it up?


Well, you said, "I know I'll probably get bashed for this. . ." and then nobody bashed you. I didn't want you to be disappointed.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

Emoore said:


> Well, you said, "I know I'll probably get bashed for this. . ." and then nobody bashed you. I didn't want you to be disappointed.


 
Well thanks for thinking of me.............


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Eh, you think I'm overreacting, I think you're overreacting. . . it's one of those things were stuff gets lost in translation on the interwebs.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

I think that the vast majority of pet owners do not have dogs that would ever warrant this kind of technique, and they look at their dog and cannot ever imagine it being done. So they have a hard time understanding that there are dogs out there who do need this. I don't think it's cruel if properly applied like any other tool. I've seen it used a number of times, the dog's misbehavior was corrected and everyone went on their merry way, yes, including the dog. I think you can find extreme and inappropriate examples of almost any kind of training. 

And yes, you get @ssholes out there that think they're being tough by dominating their dog. You also get morons with a clicker and Cujo who think treats and a head halter can fix anything. 

But what do I know? I'm also one of those people that think kids need a swift kick in the pants sometimes.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Chris Wild said:


> It's obvious this dog learned the exact same lesson that "strangling" would teach.


So why exactly is strangling considered neccasary when working with such dogs? Do you strangle your dogs to teach them to submit to you? Does any one on here?



Chris Wild said:


> The only difference between the techniques is the tool used. But the gentle leader is PC piece of equipment, so it is viewed as acceptable. Never mind that with the use of the GL in this case is risking serious and irreversible spinal damage. But it's ok because it looks "gentle"?:shrug:


I actually don't care for head collars for most dogs. I don't ever suggest them for pullers any more and I don't think dogs "like" them or that they are "gentle". I suspect dogs dislike not being able to breath even more than they dislike GLs though. I worked some placed that suggested GLs a lot and have never seen a GL cause a dog to go after it's handler but that is not an uncommon reaction of a dog who is being choked. IME GLs are an excellent tool for aggression because of the control they give over the dog's head. Improperly used, GLs can cause neck damage, although I have never known of a case of that happening (the dog who lost ability to use rear legs, there are other things I would suspect first such as Wobblers). Choking dogs with slip leads/collars is extremely likely to cause damage to the dog's windpipe, sometimes severe damage. So to imply that it is safer to strangle a dog than use a GL is a bit misleading at best.


DogGone said:


> Not necessarily. Evidently you’ve never heard of fear aggression. Sometimes putting a dog on a muzzle or a leash or some other confinement can actually make them more aggressive; this is particularly common in evidence in fear aggression.


Fear Aggression? What's that???
So in your opinion, the dog should not have been muzzled or on a leash since that may have made it more aggressive? 



DogGone said:


> False. The dog could obviously breathe; the dog’s abdomen and mouthparts indicated that the dog was breathing throughout the alleged “hanging”.


The dog obviously was weakened because it's air supply had been cut off and gasping to catch it's breath. 



DogGone said:


> You’re ignoring the facts. The fact is that other more politically correct methods were used by the owners and those politically correct other techniques are what enabled and escalated this aggressive dominant dog behavior.


Fact? Proof?

Insisting that dominance theory and intimidation is the only way to deal with or prevent aggression just shows an ignorance to any modern advancements in the understanding of dog behavior and training. 

At our training club years ago we had a macho trainer who was big on dominance theory, force and training by intimidation. When he started coming around, some people just loves him and claimed he was "so great with aggressive dogs" and he developed a bit of a following within the club. Mr Trainer was bitten more than any other instructor I have ever know. He was bitten by at least one dog per session, sometimes multiple dogs per session. I guess that is why people thought he was great for aggressive dogs, seeing as he wasn't afraid of being bitten. But these dogs weren't aggressive, they were defending themselves. Little by little, his fan club dwindled as people started to realize that maybe he wasn't all that "good with aggressive dogs" and that really he was causing otherwise nice, good natured dogs to become aggressive towards him. Eventually he was asked to leave and I later found out, he had been fired from another training place for similar reasons. He was a good example of how when force training doesn't work it can quickly esculate into a situation which puts the dog and the human at risk.


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## mjbgsd (Jun 29, 2004)

> So why exactly is strangling considered neccasary when working with such dogs?


Obviously you do not understand what is going on.... If a person is not willing to understand what is going, nothing can be learned. CM is not strangling the dog, he simply is lifting his arm high enough so the dog does not bite him in the process. The video you posted is doing the same "style" that CM used but his case really needed it, not hers. CM had a VERY aggressive dog, that lady had a dog that was just too excited. :/ 



> Do you strangle your dogs to teach them to submit to you? Does any one on here?


Me personally? No. I do not have a "red zone" case that needs that.


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## JOSHUA SAMPSON (Feb 21, 2010)

mjbgsd said:


> Obviously you do not understand what is going on.... If a person is not willing to understand what is going, nothing can be learned. CM is not strangling the dog, he simply is lifting his arm high enough so the dog does not bite him in the process. The video you posted is doing the same "style" that CM used but his case really needed it, not hers. CM had a VERY aggressive dog, that lady had a dog that was just too excited. :/
> 
> 
> Me personally? No. I do not have a "red zone" case that needs that.


I dont think very many people ever will


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## JOSHUA SAMPSON (Feb 21, 2010)

mjbgsd said:


> Do you strangle your dogs to teach them to submit to you? Does any one on here?
> 
> Me personally? No. I do not have a "red zone" case that needs that.


I dont think very many people ever will


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

I'm not sure I really see the difference between hanging a dog so that its feet are an inch off the ground, and a dog lunging, pulling, and jumping so hard that it causes the same choking effect.


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## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

AgileGSD said:


> So why exactly is strangling considered neccasary when working with such dogs? strangle


Like many I feel you are being dishonest and dramatic by using the word “strangle”. 

Like many you twist people's words and actions out of context. Whether it be purely by ignorance and/or to deliberately take things out of context to advance your agenda. I feel that many of those that are criticizing Cesar Milan are inferior to him. Evidently many of you are having a smear campaign against Cesar Milan out of jealousy, ignorance, political correctness, or because you are trying to drum up business by smearing other dog trainers and discouraging owners from training their own dogs.

You people that bashed Cesar Milan remind me of Lindsey Clouse; she also bashed the likes of Cesar Milan and insisted that Alpha rolling and such were abusive and that more politically correct methods were more effective. She abused and neglected dogs that were in her care; yet she was tearing others down in an attempt to try to build herself up. She was slandering others; to try to give herself the appearance of expertise and authority. She was slandering others to try to make others look bad so she could drum up more business for herself. I feel she is a selfish greedy evil person.

Lindsey Clouse wanted for animal abuse.
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...8-ohio-woman-indiana-wanted-animal-abuse.html

I think many of you slander others because you have an inferiority complex.


AgileGSD said:


> Choking dogs with slip leads/collars is extremely likely to cause damage to the dog's windpipe, sometimes severe damage.


The last dog that are rescued had spent so much time in a crate, that’s when I first got it even with a long leash and a non-choker collar she would pull so hard that she would crush and damage her windpipe. She had cabin fever psychosis from being in the crate so much.

That’s part of the reason I started using the E-collar. The E-collar was better for me and the dog.


AgileGSD said:


> The dog obviously was weakened because it's air supply had been cut off and gasping to catch it's breath.


That’s an obvious lie; again. Once again you’re ignoring the obvious facts; The dog could obviously breathe; the dog’s abdomen and mouthparts indicated that the dog was breathing throughout the alleged “hanging”.

The dog was obviously breathing hard because it was fighting to control Cesar.

Even the dog’s color and the dog’s eyes indicate that the dog was getting enough oxygen and that it had not been strangled.

If the dog was hypoxic the gums and tongue would have been grayish or bluish. If the dog had been strangled the blood vessels in the eyes usually are inflamed and or ruptured. You don’t have a clue what you are talking about. You are a novice when it comes to dogs and physiology. 


Syaoransbear said:


> I'm not sure I really see the difference between hanging a dog so that its feet are an inch off the ground, and a dog lunging, pulling, and jumping so hard that it causes the same choking effect.


Your statement is vague.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

APBTLove said:


> Wow, someone brought this to light... Very disturbing. LONG read, but well worth it to be aware. I've seen Cesar Milan using hanging to make a dog nearly pass out.
> Stringing Up
> Stephen Barry King animal cruelty casefile


 
Hanging is a barbaric method of "training", often used by those who prefer brute strength over true understanding of dog behavior. It was a fairly common practice in the "old days" of training, but good trainers have moved beyond that. There's very little reason to hang a dog - if you find yourself in immediate danger, maybe. But if you're dealing with a dog known to have aggression problems and you put yourself in a position to set the dog off, then that's a poor excuse for hanging a dog.

I've worked with hundreds of aggressive dogs over the years and there are multiple ways of dealing with the problem. MOST aggressiveness is caused by fear of some sort. Dogs that are fearful do well with proper understanding and not simply forceful training. Get the owners on the right track with proper handling, gradually expose the dog to whatever sets them off, use desensitization exercises properly and you can teach a dog to not be so afraid - which then helps eliminate the behavior. Meeting fear with aggression often teaches a dog to HIDE the fear, but does nothing to make it go away. You have what appears to be an immediate result (dog stops the immediate aggressive behavior) but since the underlying cause was not addressed, the dog later explodes into an aggressive state (unexpectedly). I've seen it happen on several occasions.

I'm not a permissive trainer. I use corrections. But there are times to use them and times not to. I don't like Milan. I feel he's not helped educate the public as to dog behavior - instead, he's encouraged the public to act in barbaric ways in order to produce "calm submissiveness" (another way of saying "scared to death to do anything"). I HAVE seen episodes of his show where he has deliberately and willingly choked a dog, lifting it up and holding it up until the dog was weak, and when let down the dog laid on the ground, it was that weak. People went "oooh, ahhh", all impressed because the dog wasn't acting up, and I was sitting there shocked that they showed this neanderthal choking a dog like that. In every episode I've seen of the show, Milan has used force and usually choking to subdue the dogs. He always put a choking-style collar (or looped a leash) high up around the dog's neck where it's the most sensitive and easily choked, and used considerable pressure. But since he does it with that smile plastered on his face, and talking in his little accent, people seem to get stars in their eyes and are unaware that he's basically abusing their dog.

Granted, I haven't watched any of his show in some time. I saw enough to know that his methods were old school, "force the dog into compliance regardless of what the problem is" type of training, and I have no respect for that. There are SO many good methods out there, ones that work well and produce nice, confident dogs. I understand that Milan has changed somewhat to less abrasive methods ... if his methods were all that good, why would he be changing them? Why would he be embracing positive reinforcement? Could it be that he has been WRONG all this time???

Yes, it could.

It saddens me to see people defending the "art" of hanging on this forum. I always hope to see people step forward into training methods that aren't based on punishment, and it disappoints me to realize that so many are still stuck in the old methods. I originally trained with the old methods. I evolved. It can be done. Please, open your minds and hearts and consider methods that don't involve strangling a dog into submission. You may have to struggle a bit in the process, but the end results are really wonderful.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

IliamnasQuest said:


> I feel he's not helped educate the public as to dog behavior - instead, he's encouraged the public to act in barbaric ways in order to produce "calm submissiveness" (another way of saying "scared to death to do anything").


I think you’re another ignorant slanderous person. Calm and submissive is not the same thing as scared to death. Knowing your rank and having order is not the same thing as scared to death.

Many fearful dogs are often dangerous dogs. The dogs are less dangerous after they and their owners are rehabilitated and trained and there are rules boundaries and limitations. Often dogs are fearful and attempt dominance to try to control their world; often if you give them rules boundaries and limitations and establish an understanding with them they will be much less scared and much less combative.

I've use these choke collars and alpha rolls on all of my dogs, and none of my dogs have feared me, and they all became much more mentally stable after I trained them (I've had timid dogs and I've had alpha/aggressive dogs and all of them became more moderate after training).

They all have become so secure and well behaved that they have become possessive of me, and can walk leash free, with minimal commands and virtually no negative or positive stimulation. On several occasions my dogs has let theirselves out out or my parents have left the gate open and we have come home to find our dogs sitting on the front stoop waiting for us. One of the things I've always particularly admired about the German Shepherd breed is they have a strong work drive, they seem to love to learn and work as long as you're reasonable with your expectations.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

ENOUGH with the personal attacks. People can argue their points without attacking other posters and calling them names. 

This is a general warning to everyone. 

Thank you,

ADMIN
*********


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Well said and articulated Melanie. You always have a way with words.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I have come to this thread several times to write a response, but never completed it. I have not watched the video links in this thread, but have watched Milan, and other top, successful trainers. What I have found is that just because you are successful, does NOT make you right.
Thank you Melanie for taking the time to write what many of us are thinking.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I am certainly not advocating hanging as a training method or "art". But I do think there are cases where such extreme measures may be needed. Never been in one myself, though I have witnessed a couple. I also highly doubt that most people, even trainers who have worked with "lots of aggressive dogs" have ever encountered that sort of dog or found themselves in that sort of situation. 

As far as CM, I don't really care for him but haven't watched enough of his show... probably not enough snippets to even add up to one full episode... to comment on his usual methods with regard to hanging or if he uses it too often, in inappropriate circumstances, etc.... So my comments are strictly related to the videos in this thread. And I think to equate his handling in those videos with the video of the dog being hung over the deck and kicked or other cases of abuse is ludicrious.

But I would still like to know what alternatives people have for dealing with a dog like that wolf hybrid, in a situation where both innocent human and canine bystanders are in danger AND the handler is in danger of the dog? Some people keep saying there are other ways, hanging is always barbaric no matter what the situation, but have not put forth what those other ways are. 

The only alternative I have seen presented was using the *exact same* technique, only with a GL instead of a collar, with a dog who wasn't presenting a fraction of the challenges or dangers that the wolf hybrid was. I actually don't think in that situation that this sort of technique, GL or collar, was necessary because the dog was not aggressive or dangerous and other methods would have worked fine. 

I do find it strange that a new, more PC version, of hanging was the method of choice by a well known positive trainer with a dog who IMO didn't need anything of the sort. And very strange that it is viewed as ok in this case. Is that because it's a GL instead of a collar, irregardless of the fact that the dog is MUCH more prone to serious injury in this case? Or because it's a positive trainer everyone loves, instead of everyone's favorite trainer to hate?


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> I do find it strange that a new, more PC version, of hanging was the method of choice by a well known positive trainer with a dog who IMO didn't need anything of the sort. And very strange that it is viewed as ok in this case. Is that because it's a GL instead of a collar, irregardless of the fact that the dog is MUCH more prone to serious injury in this case? Or because it's a positive trainer everyone loves, instead of everyone's favorite trainer to hate?


Gotta love it don't ya!!


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

G-burg said:


> Gotta love it don't ya!!


Yup the dog in that video is much more like my dog Hope, she is very social but also rude. She lunges and gets vocal just like that, but all she wants to do is run up to other dog and submissively lick their face and play.

She will choke herself, dig in to the pavement, and lunge into a collar with all her weight.

A gentle leader is more force than i want to use on her.

It is gentle on the handler, not the dog. Unless you believe having your head and neck snapped around is "gentle"...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Great post Melanie. 

I think a lot of Ceasar's success is just his upright attitude and confidence and most dogs listen to that. 

I have been watching this post on not posting because I have never really had a dog "in the red zone" so to speak, and I, like Chris do not really know what one would do with a dog like in the first video, other than what he did. I like that he did not lose his kool with the dog. But I would hope that there are better methods of managing aggressive dogs.

The second vid of him, I did not like because that dog seemed like it had been choked into submissiveness. It was being stupid for a while, then they show you the dog on the ground and him next to it, then he loosens the collar a bit. I do not think we saw the whole of the struggle, and I think there are ways to deal with a dog aggressive dog that does not include putting the dog on the ground and restricting air intake. Sorry. That is just an opinion.


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## crs996 (Sep 19, 2001)

I have a counterpoint to those that dislike Cesar's methods in that, since watching and truly studying what he's doing, I have largely eliminated the need to use a choke chain or any other training collar for most behaviors. 

Although my dogs were not candidates for the show to begin with, using his techniques for claiming space and use of body language have had amazing results. What I've REALLY taken away from him is how he "disagrees" with behavior. 

I've found that I can correct a multitude of activities/behaviors without ever touching a leash, collar or the dog. The trickiest part is the timing, which takes a lot of dedicated observation.

Once you learn to really communicate with them, the results are impressive.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

And you can do this without alpha rolls, choking, hanging the dog. I think you are right that timing does make a big difference both in correcting and in praising. And also your demeaner. For the vast majority of dogs I think if you eliminate every physical interaction that Ceasar does, and only use the body language and voice and timing, you could train your dog. 

The big part of any dog training is training the owner, not so much the dog. I think most trainers prefer to shy away from physical correction because training people to physically correct their dogs without abusing their dogs is really iffy. And I also believe that physical corrections, for the most part are not necessary with most dogs. If you are going to go all the way, committing to "a lot of dedicated observation" then you can certainly do it without physically challenging your dog, at least for the vast majority of dogs. Unfortunately too many people think they have the 1 in 100 dog. And without someone with a lot of experience, the novice owner, or the inexperienced owner is likely to screw up a dog that never needed that level of discipline.


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## crs996 (Sep 19, 2001)

selzer said:


> And you can do this without alpha rolls, choking, hanging the dog.


I agree completely. With that said, I've never worked with "red zone" dogs or dogs that were totally out of control. I made the mistake years ago of alpha rolling my first GSD (as instructed by a trainer) to deal with cat issues and it simply made him totally neurotic about them. 

For example, our dogs learn the "go to bed" command. The way I was trained, if the dog broke, you drag them back to the bed, give a leash correction and re-issue the command. Now, if our new pup breaks, well it's my fault for not catching it in time. If I had been on my game, I would have seen his intent in time to verbally "disagree" with it. All of this is done off leash. It's amazing how much power we have with no physical connections.

What I appreciate about Cesar is how he "reads" dogs, his excellent timing and redirection methods. I've learned a great deal about dog "energy" as well, and only reward/praise calm behavior.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

DogGone said:


> You people that bashed Cesar Milan remind me of Lindsey Clouse; she also bashed the likes of Cesar Milan and insisted that Alpha rolling and such were abusive and that more politically correct methods were more effective. She abused and neglected dogs that were in her care; yet she was tearing others down in an attempt to try to build herself up. She was slandering others; to try to give herself the appearance of expertise and authority. She was slandering others to try to make others look bad so she could drum up more business for herself. I feel she is a selfish greedy evil person.


 And a dominance theory based trainer in my area starved a bunch of board and train dogs in his care to death. I certainly don't accuse all dominance theory traienrs of starving dogs though. 



DogGone said:


> That’s an obvious lie; again. Once again you’re ignoring the obvious facts; The dog could obviously breathe; the dog’s abdomen and mouthparts indicated that the dog was breathing throughout the alleged “hanging”.
> 
> The dog was obviously breathing hard because it was fighting to control Cesar.


 How do you feel the dog was "fighting to control Cesar"? Is it all about control and dominance to you? Do you live in constant fear that your dogs may one day take over the house if you don't routinely alpha roll them, go through all doors first, eat first and 



DogGone said:


> Even the dog’s color and the dog’s eyes indicate that the dog was getting enough oxygen and that it had not been strangled.


 He obviously stopped short of the dog turning blue and passing out. He cut off the dog's air supply enough so the dog became weak and stopped fighting. 



DogGone said:


> You are a novice when it comes to dogs and physiology.


 Is there a reason you have to depend of personal attacks to state your opinion? You know nothing about me, my background or my experience but obviously if I disagree with CM (and in so, you) I must not know what I'm talking? 



Chris Wild said:


> But I would still like to know what alternatives people have for dealing with a dog like that wolf hybrid, in a situation where both innocent human and canine bystanders are in danger AND the handler is in danger of the dog? Some people keep saying there are other ways, hanging is always barbaric no matter what the situation, but have not put forth what those other ways are.


 I think alternatives have been put forth, some just choose to state they are useless, uneducated or "would never work". 



Chris Wild said:


> I do find it strange that a new, more PC version, of hanging was the method of choice by a well known positive trainer with a dog who IMO didn't need anything of the sort. And very strange that it is viewed as ok in this case. Is that because it's a GL instead of a collar, irregardless of the fact that the dog is MUCH more prone to serious injury in this case? Or because it's a positive trainer everyone loves, instead of everyone's favorite trainer to hate?


 Obviously not everyone loves the trainer. One this board, I'd say the majority of people seem to more support CM and dominance theory training. I think GLs are appropriate for only a handful of situations butdealing with aggression is one of them. They give great control fo the head which is useful for aggressive dogs. I usually suggest prong collars for pullers because the dogs accept them better and used properly I feel they work better for that issue.

That said, I'd like to see proof that dogs are at much higher risk of neck injury wearing a GL than of trachea injury from slip collars/leads.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

DogGone said:


> You are slandering and defaming Cesar Milan.


Slander applies only to the spoken word, you're using it incorrectly. The word you're searching for is "libel", which applied to the written word. You're welcome.


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

AgileGSD said:


> Obviously not everyone loves the trainer. One this board, I'd say the majority of people seem to more support CM and dominance theory training.


Many do not see CM as a "dominance theory trainer" in the classical sense taught academically in years gone by. He speaks about dominant behavior, and uses a few similar techniques but in different situations and for different reasons than classical dominance theory training would dictate IMO. 



> That said, I'd like to see proof that dogs are at much higher risk of neck injury wearing a GL than of trachea injury from slip collars/leads.


My girls flat collar is loose enough that it rides low enough when she lunges it's not much a of a danger of harming her. A gentle leader would be a risk to harm her until she learned that lunging into it was a bad idea, after that it would depend on how I used it as to whether it would hurt her spine or not.

The trainer I decided to work with put her on a prong collar, it seems to be safer than a gentle leader, and she only self corrects on it. It seems to have a side effect of elevating frustration and building up pent up emotional energy when she can't lunge and pull and do what she wants though.

But after a year of trying every positive reinforcement training method I can find I'll stick with this guys methods for a while and see where it goes.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

TxRider said:


> The trainer I decided to work with put her on a prong collar, it seems to be safer than a gentle leader, and she only self corrects on it. It seems to have a side effect of elevating frustration and building up pent up emotional energy when she can't lunge and pull and do what she wants though.
> 
> But after a year of trying every positive reinforcement training method I can find I'll stick with this guys methods for a while and see where it goes.


 I think I mentioned that I prefer prongs for pullers myself. Pulling hard on any collar can cause trachea damage.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Doggone, is there some reason you feel like you have to Champion Ceasar? I mean many of us have said that we agree with some of what he says and disagree with other stuff, and that makes you call us ignorant, and accuse lying or slander. 

I do not think there is a trainer out there that I agree with wholly. But I still respect many of them and learn from them. 

Ceasar has a few positives, I read his book, I am not sold on all his techniques.


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## crs996 (Sep 19, 2001)

AgileGSD said:


> How do you feel the dog was "fighting to control Cesar"? Is it all about control and dominance to you? Do you live in constant fear that your dogs may one day take over the house if you don't routinely alpha roll them, go through all doors first, eat first and


Actually, to dogs yes it is. Who controls the resources and the pack. How do you think that all these dogs go so crazy? They have no structure or leadership, so they take control. 

The line about living in fear a dog is not alpha rolled is a classic, way to be dramatic! LOL Oh, and yes I do go in front of my dogs out the door.



AgileGSD said:


> I think alternatives have been put forth, some just choose to state they are useless, uneducated or "would never work".


Actually, I don't think I've seen one yet. Often on the show, people state that they have been to other trainers and behaviorists with no results, or suggestions to "put the dog on medication". I wonder how many of those were "positive" trainers?


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