# Hi guys. I'm asking for some really good input...not a good day.



## JenniferAaron (Jun 25, 2017)

Hi! I haven't postedcin quite a while. We have been settling in a new bigger home...we now have a large yard for Apache to roam and run...
Let me fast forward to his age and stats so far. He is 1 year old now. Solid black in color and DDr bloodline. He has a very living, sweet nature which we all love about him...always happy for the most part and sits on command, waits for his treats....he is our family dog. We love him. 
Problem lately. ( past few months) his behavior has changed. Still living, but food aggression has been happening. Agressive behavior over pillows...he is wanting to mount them )not fixed) and showing ownership i believe. Growling over a pillow if we are too close to one....growling low if he's in his spot to sleep or rest, and i approach him. Maybe he is warning me. 
Today i was blow drying my child's hair on the short couch, and we were sitting beside a pillow on the floor...he ran to the pillow growling, and tried to grab it up with his teeth...I scolded him and he continued growling but submissovely came to me putting his snout under my arms ( what is up with this?? ) so i gently grabbed his snout and was talkin to him, and he growled and bit my face. 
Okay...in his defense....the bite could havecbeen gruesome and awful, but he put his teeth on my face and didn't apply much pressure. Was he holding back? I know he can bite much harder than that. I had no blood or bitecmarks, put him out asap....i feel like i am to blame for babying him whole contrarily scolding him. I got too close to his face maybe? 
Any opinions. ? I tried to relay this as best as i can, when it happened. I definitely want him fixed. Would that help. My husbands friend suggested fixing him, and if he continues to put him down ? seems so final and harsh. I just am confused.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

You need a trainer. It sounds like your dog is running the show, and hasn’t been given boundaries. He’s still very young and in his teenage brat stage. Find someone very familiar with GSDs and/or working dogs to help you in person.


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## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2018)

This source says that neutering is not always a fix for aggression and can make things worse. The ?Quick Fix??: Neutering As A Treatment For Aggression ? Dr. Jen's Dog Blog

I'm not a behavioral expert but I think that it's conflicting messages and environment more than hormones causing issues here.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Your dog doesn't need to be neutered. He needs to be introduced to Jesus. You have a serious issue developing. Find a trainer. One familiar with working line dogs tht isn't going to just feed him cookies.


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## Genalis_mom (Mar 9, 2018)

*Please do not let this dog around your children.* He nipped at your face, but he could maul a child.

I agree with Jax08 on this. Time for a come to Jesus meeting with the dog, but also for you as well. I am sorry to sound harsh, I don't mean any of thing in a bad way, but if you are going to fix this situation, you have to start with YOU.

The best time to deal with this was months ago, at the first growl or, better yet, BEFORE the first growl if you are astute enough to pick up on the symptoms. Find a good trainer that will not only work with the dog, but with you as well. You'll need to learn how to earn his respect and his trust. This is not an overnight fix so be prepared for the long haul. It probably won't be a pleasant process. You and the dog may end up frustrated for a while.

You should also consider a vet appointment. Let the vet know about the change in behavior and ask for a full work up to check for any underlying conditions that may be causing it.

*Right now, this very minute*, you need to make sure that the dog does not have access to your kids and you need to keep it that way until you can handle him. 

All that said.......

I am so sorry that you are having to go through this! I have been bitten by a dog twice in my life. Once by a pit bull that was going after my sister. I stuck my arm out and took the bite that was intended for her. 

The other time, I was bitten by my own doberman. The bite came out of nowhere. She was laying calming by my side with her head in my lap sleeping, she woke up saw my hand and attacked. She was 16 years old at the time, I was the only owner she had ever had, and she had never, not once, shown any aggression to me or any member of my family. The vet found a lesion on her brain that caused a form of canine dementia. I was relieved that it was a medical problem. It was heart breaking to think that the dog that I had loved for so long would attack me like that. 

It is scary. Before I knew what was wrong I went through anger, intense sadness, guilt......every emotion possible. Being bitten by my own dog was probably the hardest "doggy thing" that has ever happened to me.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

This problem started months ago in Sept 2017.
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...k-some-questions-please-help.html#post8681514

What have you done to fix it so far? Gone to any trainers? Given this, I would be more inclined to think this is continued lack of management and training. The dog has just been gaining confidence in these actions for most of his life.

Call Dave Kroyer
https://www.canineheadquarters.com/


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

I am sure I saw a very recent post under another user name because this one was lost. I believe it included a video where the dog appeared to be in pain and growling when approached. Not sure what came of that, but I think it would be an important part of the story.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

I skimmed some of your earlier posts and noticed this,



> ...I had been on a wait list for this pup for a year.


I agree with many of the comments above, and I would add to them - 

Have you discussed this with your breeder? This is a serious problem. If your breeder is an adept trainer/handler, s/he may be willing to help with a behavioral evaluation and teach you and the dog to live together safely.

Especially if finances or another external complication is getting in the way of you hiring a real, qualified, trainer - call your breeder. And be blunt, don't gloss over the matter. Ask for help.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

If memory serves this dog has had many issues of lameness and pain some of which resulted in growling.

The believe there was resource guarding starting pretty young as well. and lacking in lots of leadership and other things he needed.

I don't think you are going to hear anything now you haven't already heard 100 times. Get a good trainer. If there is still any unresolved pain stuff time to resolve it


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Jax08 said:


> This problem started months ago in Sept 2017.
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...k-some-questions-please-help.html#post8681514
> 
> What have you done to fix it so far? Gone to any trainers? Given this, I would be more inclined to think this is continued lack of management and training. The dog has just been gaining confidence in these actions for most of his life.
> ...


Agree but besides gaining confidence potentially also having issues aggravated and made worse by the wrong handling, response and management because I assume no trainer was ever utilized and on top of that the dog has physical problems


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## Genalis_mom (Mar 9, 2018)

A husband that smacks him with newspaper for peeing and pooping, a mother in law that kicks him, kids taking pig ears away. Poor boy!

I went back and read through your previous threads. You got a lot of solid advice (I listed a few below). In these threads, I saw lots of frustration and drama as a puppy worked your nerves. I saw you frequently say that you were going to get a trainer. But, I also saw how much you love your dog! It's wonderful that you love him so. I wish every dog were that loved.

But, you have got to handle this. The behavior has escalated with this dog from day one, and nothing has been done to alleviate the situation. You are getting very close to the point that your kids are at risk (in an earlier post, you said that he'd already growled and nipped at the kids). But, at the same time, you are putting the dog that you love in great danger as well. When he does bite and harm someone (note that I said when, not if), you may be required to put him down depending on where you are. You will end up with a dog that must be crated all the time, except this dog is not crate trained, so his option will be to be placed in a kennel outside, which will only make things worse for both him and your family. Please, you simply MUST get some help that will teach YOU how to handle this dog! If not, be prepared to have your kids scarred by a dog bite and to have a dog that must be killed due to aggression.

Wolfy Dog said: Reminds me of a quote: If you treat them like people, they will treat you like a dog. (He is treating you like a dog. You are not a dog. You've gotta do something!)

Cloudpump said: You need a trainer that will train you.

Bramble said: You are giving him way too much freedom.


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## Ava&Phoenix (Sep 11, 2017)

[email protected] said:


> This source says that neutering is not always a fix for aggression and can make things worse. The ?Quick Fix??: Neutering As A Treatment For Aggression ? Dr. Jen's Dog Blog
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not a behavioral expert but I think that it's conflicting messages and environment more than hormones causing issues here.




I also have read an article, which of course I cannot find right now, saying that neutering can actually increase aggressiveness if the aggression is not sexual. The study was done on quite a big sample of dogs. The drive for the article was due to the fact that not many dogs get neutered in Europe in comparison to NA. Food for thought. Maybe someone read the same article. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Ava&Phoenix said:


> I also have read an article, which of course I cannot find right now, saying that neutering can actually increase aggressiveness if the aggression is not sexual. The study was done on quite a big sample of dogs. The drive for the article was due to the fact that not many dogs get neutered in Europe in comparison to NA. Food for thought. Maybe someone read the same article.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Was this the article?

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...vior-changes-when-dogs-are-spayed-or-neutered


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## Ava&Phoenix (Sep 11, 2017)

tim_s_adams said:


> Was this the article?
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...vior-changes-when-dogs-are-spayed-or-neutered




Yes! Saving it lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I hope the OP called a trainer. This could be a very serious situation if it's not stopped now.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

After all the help we offered last year, this doesn't surprise me. 
I posted the following on 9/29/2017: "First of all, so glad that you guys are OK. 
Now back to the dog. It was to be expected and no surprise to me regarding the earlier threads and the dog not being taken seriously but mainly loved and cuddled. This is just the start. Time to hire a good trainer and not let the kids or dog get away with anything. Having gone through all this turmoil of the hurricane is no excuse to not train him. A sound temperamented dog can handle this and it is history for the dog.
Do not punish growling as it will result in a direct bite later on. Consider the growl a warning and a red flag to get you involved in controlling this young dog. He is close to biting and doing a lot of damage. Then what?"

Now you posted, "always happy for the most part and sits on command, waits for his treats....he is our family dog". This is all you are expecting from him? I think pretty soon you have a bigger problem on your hands and most likely the dog has to pay the ultimate price. Sorry to be blunt but I have seen this too often in the head lines,"x-breed kills child in an unprovoked attack." Most attacks are not unprovoked. Instead people have ignored or not understood warning signs. These dogs are failed by their humans and started out as live stuffed animals but their animal needs, instincts and reflexes ignored. But you have had good advice least year.


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

This is sad given all the good advice you had.

Either change your act or find a better home that can give this dog what he needs. He has zero boundaries, limited training, no guidance, what do you expect ? You need to hire a trainer to train YOU or give the dog to someone more capable.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Unfortunately, I remember quite a few of your previous threads. You have had a lot of issues with this dog. I'm sorry that is has been so difficult for all of you, but others have given you clear, solid advice which seems to have gone mostly ignored. I know that it has been mentioned before that he might be too much "dog" for you, and that seems to be the case again. 

Get a trainer or re-home the dog. At this point, re-homing the dog seems like the best option because you keep having issue after issue. I do not mean to sound harsh or rude, but I think you need a serious wake-up call. Sitting on command is not a huge accomplishment. This dog needs MUCH more training, boundaries, stability, and much less babying.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Pytheis said:


> At this point, re-homing the dog seems like the best option because you keep having issue after issue. I do not mean to sound harsh or rude, but I think you need a serious wake-up call. Sitting on command is not a huge accomplishment. This dog needs MUCH more training, boundaries, stability, and much less babying.


This is the best advice you could get in this situation. I know for sure that we all mean this in a respectful way. You all will be happier, including your dog who is not living to his potential at all. Please rehome him before you have to put him down. Consider it a lesson learned. We all have had these lessons on our plates and made us better dog owners/trainers.
Then take a break and if you still decide to get a dog, get a good old soul who has proven to be a good family dog.
OP, thank for being honest through this all. Keep everyone safe and the dog as well.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Can you call the breeder?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

How gently was gently grabbing his snout???
Send me a pm.


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## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2018)

After re-reading all the posts again, I am inclined to throw in with others who say to re-home the dog with someone who has experience with working German Shepherds and will be able to spend the necessary time and effort with him. You have a young child at home who may unwittingly set the dog off and then there may be no choice for the dog BUT to be put down, all because he didn't have boundaries clearly established. The child, if not severely hurt, may be frightened of dogs forever. 

Give some thought to why you wanted a GSD. Think about whether or not a different breed would be better for your current situation and commitment to training. If it turns out that you really do truly want, love and will work with this dog, then call a GSD trainer and get things under control.

There is NO SHAME in saying "I can't do this anymore". They say 99% of genius is hard work but a good percentage of it is knowing when you're in over your head and it's time to quit, too. You have to do what's right for you, and right for the dog. 

If you tell us you got a trainer, we want to hear about the progress and we'll root for you.
If you tell us you re-homed the dog, we'll be happy because it's bound to be a better situation for all of you.

Sorry you are dealing with this; I'm sure it's not easy. Do let us know what happens!


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Aggression to family- biting the face with kids in the home. This is big. 

Rehome the dog. I am really worried a child is going to be scarred for life and the poor dog will pay the ultimate price for simple owner inexperience. 

Either that or find a reputable, experienced trainer who actually understands GSDs. This type of behavior will only escalate and will not be solved by removing the testicles. None of my dogs, even drastically injured ones, have ever tried to bite my face- that to me is a huge red flag. 

I am in no way suggesting the dog is unstable or has poor temperament. I think he is a perfectly normal working line GSD that has an inexperienced handler. It's OK to return him to the breeder to protect your family and the dog, no shame in that at all.


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## JenniferAaron (Jun 25, 2017)

Sorry it has taken me so long to respond. 
Yes. I was given ample advice last year, early this year also.

I am inexperienced. This is my second German Shepherd...my first i had to regime due to a divorce years ago...my heart was broken. I absolutely love shepherds. I love everything about this breed. I give him so much love and appreciation, although i am very lacking in the training and working aspect of these dogs. I know...how much they really require now. 

My first dog i re homed around 9 months of age, so i can't compare that situation woth my current dog. My other dog was black and tan...I paid much less for him i do know that.....he seemed less aggressive (I absolutely hate using the word aggressive because...this may not necissarily be aggression bit possibly his age..testosterone...not neutered) my other dog was also a few months younger still. 

I really...truly....appreciated all of the advice i have been given. I do hope...that i seem genuine in that aspect. Training has not happened. Yes...it is overdue. We have taken him to several vet visits, feed him Fromm, yet of course this is basic compared to the issue at hand. 

My husband has a different relationship with him. He always
..always runs to him whe, he calls the dog. Me....not so much. He acts like a lap dog when my husband is there....he basically begs for his undivided attention. Its incredible how much he attaches to him. Maybe he does not see me as an alpha. 

The aggression(or not?) ........
He has definitely cha,fed in the past 4 months, he is now 1. It started gradually...when he lays down and we may get too close to his proximity...I noticed growls....
When he eats...he guards now every time...he even growls at ME if im too close to his bowl. Aaron snatches the bowl and pops his nose , not backing down....and he simmers. I do get scared. I admit. Is he capable of biting me?? I can't answer that. I usually set his food I, the back room away from us so he can eat in peace from now on.

I feel like...instinctively....and i am no expert....that he is at a hard age...sexually frustrated....and shows a lot of ownership. If i sit on the couch...and he's sitting beside me, or my husband ...and the kids come to plop beside me....i notice he growls and puts his snout on my body. It is as if he is showing ownership over us. I have no idea. 

I am angry that training hasn't happened. Its been a real and true rollercoaster ride this year. No excuse...just the facts. 

I would never ever want a bite to happen. Especially towards my kids. I will say that my husband always notices how loving and patient he is with our toddler ....she doesn't hurt or bother him, we wouldn't allow that....but he is very patient with her in his space. I hope we can train him asap. Otherwise rehomi,g may have to happen. I just....don't want to have to go that route.


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## KaiserAus (Dec 16, 2016)

JenniferAaron said:


> I feel like...instinctively....and i am no expert....that he is at a hard age...sexually frustrated....and shows a lot of ownership. If i sit on the couch...and he's sitting beside me, or my husband ...and the kids come to plop beside me..


And what do you do what he does this? Just allow him to growl?

Right from the start, when he was tiny, you have allowed him to do whatever he wants, you have never shown him what is acceptable or not.

You seem to want the perfect dog without putting the work in. You've been given advice time and time again and never take it.
You're the one letting this dog down with your excuses, and that is what they are, excuses! 
If you really wanted to train your dog you would make sure that you found the time.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

I mentioned this on a previous page - have you contacted your dog's breeder?


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Your husband should not be snatching the bowl and popping the dogs' nose. Tell him to stop. IMO, the bottom line is that your dog has been given too much freedom, no boundaries and has no respect for you. 

If you cannot/will not step up to the plate and train your dog, please rehome him, before he bites someone.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I had a German Shepherd with young children and it was challenging all the time. But I also knew if I didn’t train early, we would have trouble later, so I gave up Saturdays, we quit all kid sports for a year, and dug in to go to classes. Even then, I could have done a lot more with the dog. If you haven’t had the time so far, you probably won’t have what it takes to fix it. You already know that. No matter what you do, any dog you get, unless it’s an older trained dog, is going to need some training. Even the easier breeds need attention and training. You and your family also need training on how to treat a dog in your home. I changed my attitude toward you after reading your post taking responsibility for your dog’s behaviors. Good luck with your decision. It isn't easy.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

JenniferAaron said:


> ....he seemed less aggressive (I absolutely hate using the word aggressive because...this may not necissarily be aggression bit possibly his age..testosterone...not neutered) my other dog was also a few months younger still.
> 
> 
> I feel like...instinctively....and i am no expert....that he is at a hard age...sexually frustrated....and shows a lot of ownership. If i sit on the couch...and he's sitting beside me, or my husband ...and the kids come to plop beside me....i notice he growls and puts his snout on my body. It is as if he is showing ownership over us. I have no idea.


You are hung up on sexual frustration thinking it equates to aggression and neutering will fix it. It won't. The latest studies have shown that neutering dogs is equated with_ increased_ aggression. Neutering a dog will not take the place of training the dog. You will still need to train this dog to get control of the situation, intact or not.


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## JenniferAaron (Jun 25, 2017)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> Your husband should not be snatching the bowl and popping the dogs' nose. Tell him to stop. IMO, the bottom line is that your dog has been given too much freedom, no boundaries and has no respect for you.
> 
> If you cannot/will not step up to the plate and train your dog, please rehome him, before he bites someone.





LuvShepherds said:


> I had a German Shepherd with young children and it was challenging all the time. But I also knew if I didn’t train early, we would have trouble later, so I gave up Saturdays, we quit all kid sports for a year, and dug in to go to classes. Even then, I could have done a lot more with the dog. If you haven’t had the time so far, you probably won’t have what it takes to fix it. You already know that. No matter what you do, any dog you get, unless it’s an older trained dog, is going to need some training. Even the easier breeds need attention and training. You and your family also need training on how to treat a dog in your home. I changed my attitude toward you after reading your post taking responsibility for your dog’s behaviors. Good luck with your decision.
> 
> It isn't easy.


Changed your attitude how ...apologies...chatting online is hard to read between the lines. No disrespect in my asking intended. Also i have talked to my husband tonight about training asap...no more putting this off...or we need to find a better home for our boy. I definitely would like to start training to keep our dog, i hope my husband will keep his promise. I love him so.


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## JenniferAaron (Jun 25, 2017)

KaiserAus said:


> JenniferAaron said:
> 
> 
> > I feel like...instinctively....and i am no expert....that he is at a hard age...sexually frustrated....and shows a lot of ownership. If i sit on the couch...and he's sitting beside me, or my husband ...and the kids come to plop beside me..
> ...


Okay, true points. I do really want him trained. By a professional who is familiar with the breed. We live in Waco again and after the hurricane hit....we are lucky to have a house, job, and also our dog. No excuse in that aspect....very factual. Unfortunately. 

We planned to send him to one of two places to stay and be properly trained by a professional. I spoke for a long period with both prospective trainers. It never happened due to our circumstances. 

When he growls like he has been....I honestly am unsure of how to react. Do i sc old? Do I get up and walk away? Do I try to make him get down. You see...i am very confused. I don't like saying scared...my husband is not scared of him at all. It breaks my heart to admit the growl ing startles me. I would like to think it is all bark and no bite. No so sure. 

We plan to take him to a training facility in our town on Friday. 60 dollars per session which is steep for us right now...but im willing to try everything. I am.


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## KaiserAus (Dec 16, 2016)

JenniferAaron said:


> Okay, true points. I do really want him trained. By a professional who is familiar with the breed. We live in Waco again and after the hurricane hit....we are lucky to have a house, job, and also our dog. No excuse in that aspect....very factual. Unfortunately.
> 
> We planned to send him to one of two places to stay and be properly trained by a professional. I spoke for a long period with both prospective trainers. It never happened due to our circumstances.
> 
> ...


Sending him away for training is not the answer because it really is you who needs the training... and you state that right here in your post. You need to go to the training and be trained on how to handle your dog. I would be scared, you should be scared... I would not want a grown GSD growling at me or my children... you do realise a dog this size could kill you if it wanted to?

If my dog growled at one of my children whilst sitting on the couch it would be shoved off the couch and put in its crate or outside and never allowed on the couch again! Ever! I'm not saying this is the right way to deal with your dog, but it is the way I would deal with mine... mind you I've never heard my dog growl, but I can tell you now, swift action would be taken that he fully understood that any aggression towards adults or children would not be tolerated.


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## McGloomy (Mar 13, 2018)

I've been following the posts. I am sorry that you are having problems with your beloved GSD. He reminded me of my late Dalmatian, who was a family dog and she only obeyed my father, and she would too growl at us (the children, when we were children). Looking back, it was back in the 90s and none of us in the family had the most expert ideas about owning a strong, stubborn, smart dog breed (she was our first dog.) Since your GSD listens to your husband AT THE MOMENT, take advantage of that. By 'advantage,' I mean, for example, if he ever catches your GSD growls at your or your children, he needs to say NO until you dog relaxes. Look at it like, a child who speaks impolitely to you (the mum), and the dad steps in 'Hey now don't you EVER talk to your mother like that!' and your dog will need to back down. Your dog is young. Even if he isn't, there's still time. Don't give up on your dog. He just needs to LEARN and BE TAUGHT how to act and react. He needs to obey EVERYONE in the house. When you do get a trainer, and I hope that you do, listen to the trainer, ask a lot of questions and do your homework. Re-homing is not always the answer. Your GSD is lucky to have people who love him so much. Step up and don't give up on your dog. Good luck.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I will give you my phone # by pm. I just got back from San Antonio/Houston, and worked with a really nice trainer in Houston. Your dog is not as problematic as it seems, nor as good as he can be. The problem is learned behaviors as result of inexperience and consistency. We’ll talk if you like.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Besides getting a good trainer I just wanted to ask once more because I am not sure if this was ever answered or what the outcome has been:

what was the reason for his pain causing him to growl when touched or approached because he was anticipating being touched? The post maybe a few months ago with the video of him looking miserable? I don't remember if there was ever an end to that thread after the dog had seen a vet?

And going solely off my memory it just seems like this dog has had a lot of pain, lamenesses in his young life. Was he ever diagnosed with anything for sure, like pano? Has the dog ever been X rayed? 

Guarding a pillow is a whole different thing but nonetheless-- in order to really turn over a new leaf and get on the right track with this dog I feel part of it needs to be getting to the bottom of his physical problem if you have not already, why is it happening and is he being properly treated, is he having proper pain management if it's pano, is he having proper exercise etc--too much crazy ball throw causing flareups of something?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

JenniferAaron said:


> Okay, true points. I do really want him trained. By a professional who is familiar with the breed. We live in Waco again and after the hurricane hit....we are lucky to have a house, job, and also our dog. No excuse in that aspect....very factual. Unfortunately.
> 
> We planned to send him to one of two places to stay and be properly trained by a professional. I spoke for a long period with both prospective trainers. It never happened due to our circumstances.
> 
> ...


What I think you should be doing is managing him so that conflict is very unlikely. Having someone on the internet tell you what to do when your dog is growling at you--a dog who has bitten your face-- is not the way to go. Manage his life so that there will be no growling until you can get a professional to help you, maybe that means he gets no access to the living room for the time being?

Also, before you go spending money on a trainer, be sure it's worth it. Call Cliffson, or call Dave Kroyer like I think Jax suggested---even if just for a referral (I don't know if you are driving distance to kroyer) but don't just go to whatever trainer and hope for the best. If you have limited resources you need to be sure you aren't wasting them.

Edit: I mean be sure you get a GOOD trainer...not insinuating maybe training isn't worth it, I just want to see you spend your money on someone who is right for the job and qualified


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

If I was the breeder I would demand that dog back yesterday. You failed this dog immensely. Why are you asking for advice even, since you don't take it seriously at all. You got a wonderful dog as a pup trusted to you, only to have it ruined by lack of training, commitment and repeating all the excuses that we have read before. If you truly love that dog (and your kids!), he shouldn't have been in this place. Rehome the dog and get a bunny or cat that you can love and only have to feed. This situation is so upsetting, like seeing a dog ruined right before our eyes.
***REMOVED BY MODERATOR***


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## Trix (Jun 22, 2017)

JenniferAaron said:


> Okay, true points. I do really want him trained. By a professional who is familiar with the breed. We live in Waco again and after the hurricane hit....we are lucky to have a house, job, and also our dog. No excuse in that aspect....very factual. Unfortunately.
> 
> We planned to send him to one of two places to stay and be properly trained by a professional. I spoke for a long period with both prospective trainers. It never happened due to our circumstances.
> 
> ...




If you’re having a hard time justifying 60 dollars per session to keep your “dog you love” from biting your kids face, I question your commitment to your dog. You clearly were not committed in training him and following through with discipline and routine. 

These dogs are WORK. Especially a working line, which you got. Without experience/extensive research, buying a working dog is a terrible decision. 

Sorry for coming off as blunt, however if you truly love your dog you will spend the time and money needed to fix this issue. If not, drop the routine and re-home him to the proper home. My 11 month old isn’t neutered and is incredibly high energy and drive. That being said - he is trained hard and consistently. My wife and I read many different training books prior to getting him. He’s on his second level of group classes. It takes WORK and he’s still far from perfect. I believe this issue would be there with any GSD. It’s not the dog. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2018)

Unless more experienced owners/handlers disagree, I'd suggest the thing you start doing RIGHT NOW, at his next meal and every meal after is this:

No more food in the bowl and just plopping it down for him. Do one or the other of these:
1) Hand feed the dog. Measure out his portion, and give it to him by the handful. Teach him "focus" or "watch me". The dog must make eye contact with you before you give him a handful of food. Gradually increase the time that he holds eye contact. Maybe you will want your husband to start this training, then you can take over once it's rolling. NEVER let the kids near his food bowl.

2) If you put the food in the bowl (because you're rushed and have no time to hand feed), make the dog SIT and give you eye contact before you put the bowl down. Thereafter, don't mess with his bowl. Let him eat.

That's a starter. And it's easy.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

[email protected] said:


> Unless more experienced owners/handlers disagree, I'd suggest the thing you start doing RIGHT NOW, at his next meal and every meal after is this:
> 
> No more food in the bowl and just plopping it down for him. Do one or the other of these:
> 1) Hand feed the dog. Measure out his portion, and give it to him by the handful. Teach him "focus" or "watch me". The dog must make eye contact with you before you give him a handful of food. Gradually increase the time that he holds eye contact. Maybe you will want your husband to start this training, then you can take over once it's rolling. NEVER let the kids near his food bowl.
> ...


I wouldn’t do this with this particular dog/owner combination. I think they are past that being a safe suggestion. She’s afraid of the dog, and the dog has already shown he will bite. A more experienced, confident handler could do this. IMO, trying that in this situation is asking for trouble.


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## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2018)

GypsyGhost said:


> I wouldn’t do this (train focus while hand feeding meals) with this particular dog/owner combination. I think they are past that being a safe suggestion. She’s afraid of the dog, and the dog has already shown he will bite. A more experienced, confident handler could do this. IMO, trying that in this situation is asking for trouble.


Not a good idea even if the husband (who seems to have more respect from the dog) does it?
What in particular makes it unsafe, in your opinion? I am wondering in what way it's different from training with treats, aside from using the meal portion instead of treats. The very fact that it IS the dog's food?


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Only 2 options - call Cliffson as he requested or rehome the dog. 

The dog has learned he can get his way by biting and/or bullying. The OP has admitted to being scared of the dog. The dog knows this and takes advantage of it. The spouse has blinders on (reading between the lines).

As for the $60 per training session - if this is a good facility, the trainer is extremely experienced with GSD and it is private sessions; do what you have to, to cover the $60 if you want to keep this dog. Otherwise, once again rehome the dog.


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## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2018)

*$60 is cheap*



GypsyGhost said:


> I wouldn’t do this with this particular dog/owner combination. I think they are past that being a safe suggestion. She’s afraid of the dog, and the dog has already shown he will bite. A more experienced, confident handler could do this. IMO, trying that in this situation is asking for trouble.


Like when I convinced my husband to buy some chainsaw chaps... I told him "$200 is cheaper than what an ER visit will cost". 

$60 a session is still less expensive than treatment for dog bites or lawsuits and it sounds like a very necessary expense at this point.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

[email protected] said:


> Not a good idea even if the husband (who seems to have more respect from the dog) does it?
> What in particular makes it unsafe, in your opinion? I am wondering in what way it's different from training with treats, aside from using the meal portion instead of treats. The very fact that it IS the dog's food?


This dog resource guarding and showing he is not afraid to take it up a notch, plus the owner lacking practical dog experience and being afraid of her dog is why I wouldn’t do it here. Not even with the husband, who, after reading other posts from the OP, doesn’t seem to be appropriate with the dog. I think there is too much potential for conflict in this household with this dog. If this dog were to be given to someone with some dog knowledge, and the ability to be fair and consistent, sure, have at it. But not here. OP really needs a trainer to come in and help with this dog. In person.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> Not a good idea even if the husband (who seems to have more respect from the dog) does it?
> What in particular makes it unsafe, in your opinion? I am wondering in what way it's different from training with treats, aside from using the meal portion instead of treats. The very fact that it IS the dog's food?


What can be conveyed through the eye contact in this case would probably be her nervousness and just asking to get bit in the face again. And like I'm sure GG is seeing with it, the op can't go from the way she's been handling him to "I'm in charge, I control the food" without a whole lot of in between steps.


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## JenniferAaron (Jun 25, 2017)

In response to a few people on here...
Not for every one....
I feel...as though i am being categorized as an "ignorant, unworthy" GSD owner. Hey....many many opinions are right on. I love constructive critisicm. It is how we learn to do better. 

With that said....I did NOT buy this dog on a whim...i planned for over a year to bring him into our home.....life happens and things go astray at times. My dog is not...I repeat not....overtly aggressive, he is untrained obviously and i am untrained as well. That is my fault. 

A few people are quick to judge me harshly and say "rehome, its not fair to him" . let me be a little clear....we have a decent sized home, a big backyard for him to spend outside time..
And he is loved very much. 

Why....are some of you so quick to shame me yet you are so knowlegable in many ways...i think you all know rehoming this dog would be my last option. 

Wolfy on here....in what i have seen from your posts in response to mine...I am sure you are leaps and bounds above my realm of knowledge with the brewed, it goes without saying. But why...oh why....have i angered you to the point of almost feeling sorry for my dog, and shaming me as an owner. That does hurt. I have done so much for him...training is on me. It was something meaby to happen long ago bit didn't. Sorry i can't just get rid of him though. I see that a few on here think i am full of excuses...and that i am not a good enough owner to provide him an adequate living situation. 

What can i say....he is our dog. We love him. Maybe this ismy fault be a use i have painted him with the word aggressive...when in fact...he's not, although because of my lack of getting him to training...he runs the show and that's unacceptable. I know that's true. 

I am the type of person....who has always hated..hated..to see puppies go to an ignorant, unresearched person or family. I am not okay with that. I did tons of research before buying Apache. I read...I kept in constant contact with mu breeder ...asked questions....i am a responsible animal owner. I do know that this isn't just any dog....he is huge and has a lot of power. Please be a little easier on me.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

JenniferAaron, I truly wish you the best with this dog. That said, you have to realize that this dog has the potential to do serious damage if things don’t change in your household. You NEED to find a good trainer, and start working on this ASAP. There is conflict in your relationship with him, and he is running the show. You need someone with a lot of GSD experience to meet with you in person, and train you, your husband and your kids how to handle and live with this dog in a way that sets boundaries for the dog, and provides consistency across the board. I’ll second (or third) the suggestion to contact Dave Kroyer.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

JenniferAaron said:


> Changed your attitude how ...apologies...chatting online is hard to read between the lines. No disrespect in my asking intended. Also i have talked to my husband tonight about training asap...no more putting this off...or we need to find a better home for our boy. I definitely would like to start training to keep our dog, i hope my husband will keep his promise. I love him so.


To be kind but blunt, I have been here a while and often people who don't take advice don’t really want it. After reading your explanation, I’m encouraged that you asked, listened and made new choices. I get upset when someone makes serious mistakes with this breed when there is so much help available, but things happen and we are not perfect. The dogs end up suffering when owners can’t or won’t do the right things.

Last year, several of us tried to help someone who made serious mistakes with their first GSD. It was on another social media site, not here. Someone offered to take the dog in. It was a good offer. They said they would pay all expenses. Instead, the owner put down a healthy dog whose only crime was having the wrong owner and the wrong trainer. I was devastated for that sad puppy.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Nevermind love or affection with him. That's the biggest part of your problems with him. Think about consistent rules and structure, without the emotion. Consider him a new dog that you don't know, and start all over again. Calm indifference between you for right now until you have some in person help.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Please contact @cliffson1. That is a very generous offer.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

Call Cliff, talk to him, listen to him. Too many opinions can muddle any situation, I think you need some sensible clarity.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

cliffson1 said:


> I will give you my phone # by pm. I just got back from San Antonio/Houston, and worked with a really nice trainer in Houston. Your dog is not as problematic as it seems, nor as good as he can be. The problem is learned behaviors as result of inexperience and consistency. We’ll talk if you like.


If I were you and experiencing all that you have written, I would pm Cliffson1 and see what he has to say. Nothing can be done without taking that first step and it seems that this is the easiest first step that has been offered. What may lay ahead may be hard but you won't ever know until you start.

I have read all of your posts since you first started posting and I really believe that what he has to say will probably do you, your family and your dog a world of good. Cliffson has amazing knowledge and experience with this breed and I'm positive it stems from genuine concern and a wish to help.

dont throw offered help out the window, open that door and walk towards it. 

I Wish you the best outcome.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> Last year, several of us tried to help someone who made serious mistakes with their first GSD. It was on another social media site, not here. Someone offered to take the dog in. It was a good offer. They said they would pay all expenses. Instead, the owner put down a healthy dog whose only crime was having the wrong owner and the wrong trainer. I was devastated for that sad puppy.


I remember this! An experienced German Shepherd person offered to take that year old pup and so did a professional trainer offer to take the him, evaluate him, and offered a free board and train before rehoming to an appropriate home. The owner could not face their own failure with the dog that they could not fix with their own version of training, training, training, and they chose to euthanize the pup claiming not wired right rather than admit they failed the dog and needed to do things differently.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I remember this! An experienced German Shepherd person offered to take that year old pup and so did a professional trainer offer to take the him, evaluate him, and offered a free board and train before rehoming to an appropriate home. The owner could not face their own failure with the dog that they could not fix with their own version of training, training, training, and they chose to euthanize the pup claiming not wired right rather than admit they failed the dog and needed to do things differently.


This sounds familiar. Poor pup.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

JenniferAaron said:


> In response to a few people on here...
> Not for every one....
> I feel...as though i am being categorized as an "ignorant, unworthy" GSD owner. Hey....many many opinions are right on. I love constructive critisicm. It is how we learn to do better.
> 
> ...


OP, my goal is not to shame you but to give you a wake up call since the advice we all gave you months ago has not been implemented. I get it; life happens but the dog isn't helped by that and so you need to alter your plans for him before the kids are injured and the dog is dead. I understand that you researched but that doesn't mean it will be a success. I have made mistakes in the past with adoptions and most of us have. We are just trying to avoid a tragedy with the dog and kids and possibly yourself. I hope you call Cliffson.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

The reason so many people are saying that you need to rehome the dog is not because we think you don't love him. We are very well aware of the fact that you love your dog. That is the problem. You baby him too much and claim it's because you love him and "want what's best for him." What was best for that dog was training, even when it was hard, consistent rules, even when it was difficult, and less humanizing. I would not be allowing this dog on the couch. I would not be allowing this dog on the bed. Crate if you have to.

As many others have said, call Cliff before you do anything else. He is willing to help you for free. You have absolutely no reason not to talk with him, and I'm sure he can help you immensely. We all want this to turn out well, and if you really are willing to put in the difficult work ahead of you, we will all be thrilled. You know yourself truly and honestly, and if you are unable to spend the time, MONEY, and energy to turn this dog around, don't bother moving forward with a trainer. This is all very unfortunate, and if you do end up deciding that rehoming is what's best, please keep this in mind the next time you decide to get a dog.

Good luck. Let us know how everything goes.


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## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2018)

Jen, I hope this helps you like it has helped my husband: Try to remember that sometimes when people sound angry, they are coming from a place of fear deep down. It's hard to think about that when you are feeling maligned, hurt and confused, but if some folks here sound harsh, they are worried about two things mainly: the well-being and safety of children, and dogs.

Apparently last year you had issues and this year you still have issues. Issues like these rarely (or never) self-resolve. Folks have a sick feeling in their guts that something terrible may happen. And here you are wanting to do right by everyone in your family, including Apache, but for one reason or another the training is not being done.

Please take advantage of the offers of help, and please keep us informed of how things are going. Help yourself while helping put our minds at ease. We all really just want it to turn out with a happy ending.


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## JenniferAaron (Jun 25, 2017)

wolfy dog said:


> JenniferAaron said:
> 
> 
> > In response to a few people on here...
> ...


Yes, I was fortunate to have a good conversation with Cliff. Very fortunate. I will keep in contact with him. Sorry Wolfy, no meant rudeness on my part. I guess i just worry for the dog and want things to be great , i hate to see him growl. It is a game changer. He needs training. My husband talked in person to a trainer today. They are booked until early may.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

JenniferAaron said:


> Yes, I was fortunate to have a good conversation with Cliff. Very fortunate. I will keep in contact with him. Sorry Wolfy, no meant rudeness on my part. I guess i just worry for the dog and want things to be great , i hate to see him growl. It is a game changer. He needs training. My husband talked in person to a trainer today. They are booked until early may.


Maybe I missed it. Where are you located?


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## JenniferAaron (Jun 25, 2017)

cloudpump said:


> JenniferAaron said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, I was fortunate to have a good conversation with Cliff. Very fortunate. I will keep in contact with him. Sorry Wolfy, no meant rudeness on my part. I guess i just worry for the dog and want things to be great , i hate to see him growl. It is a game changer. He needs training. My husband talked in person to a trainer today. They are booked until early may.
> ...



Waco Texas


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## JenniferAaron (Jun 25, 2017)

Apache now


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

JenniferAaron said:


> Waco Texas


I'd contact k9 working dogs of Dallas. They offer private training.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Jennifer and I talked extensively. I think it was a fruitful conversation. I tried to give her insights into HOW and WHY he has progressed to this point. I am hopeful for the future, but I stressed( among many other things) that the path to a good ending requires HER to do the handling in the training process with a trainer. Not the trainer, not her husband, but she needs to receive respect and assume leadership of this dog, and it is best done by a training process over time. 
I also want to thank Jennifer for listening to me, and I appreciate that many felt I could be of help to her. The important thing is that Jennifer follows up and develops this dog to his rightful potential. This cannot be put off any longer.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

cliffson1 said:


> Jennifer and I talked extensively. I think it was a fruitful conversation. I tried to give her insights into HOW and WHY he has progressed to this point. I am hopeful for the future, but I stressed( among many other things) that the path to a good ending requires HER to do the handling in the training process with a trainer. Not the trainer, not her husband, but she needs to receive respect and assume leadership of this dog, and it is best done by a training process over time.
> I also want to thank Jennifer for listening to me, and I appreciate that many felt I could be of help to her. The important thing is that Jennifer follows up and develops this dog to his rightful potential. This cannot be put off any longer.


Can I call for training tips? Lol, just kidding.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Hey Jen, if this helps I have a now 4 year old dog that honestly I tried to pass off to my partner to handle and train when he was about 4 months old. Not because the dog was an issue with his family in the house, but because of his extreme reactivity to cars, people, dogs, out and about. And his power- huge strong boy. My partner is stronger and bigger than I am, so I had him hold the leash. Luckily, and very quickly, I saw that what was happening was the "drive" for reacting was actually being pumped up by what my SO was doing, and that frustration was building. So I decided it was up to me to train this dog and I did. It was a challenge but I learned a ton from the excellent and experienced trainers on this forum- there are a few incredible people on here who really know their stuff. Cliffson is one of them. 

It's not going to be all sunshine and roses working with your dog- you will make mistakes and do things you regret but you also will learn from those mistakes and the dog will be fine. You also will learn a whole lot about yourself- and probably gain a ton of confidence as you achieve success! 

I know it is especially hard to train a dog while raising a family. Keep in mind "training" doesn't need to happen at a special location or only at a facility or field. At first, I only wanted to train at set times out on a training field. But that's just not always possible because... life. Train the dog in everyday life, take him out in the driveway and work on recalls, down, heel for five minutes while the kids nap. Take him out in the grocery store parking lot for five minutes after shopping to work on commands, or focus. Keep it simple and make it doable. 

And remember to keep at the forefront safety for your kids and family. Don't let your dog (or kids) pay the ultimate price and please if you give training your best go and still don't feel you can trust your dog around your kids, do rehome him. There is no shame in that, and it does not mean you are a failure.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

First, I am happy you got tips from Cliffson. 
Maybe this anecdote will help you: I once was asked to help a family of 5 with a male Corgi with similar issues. He had already bitten everyone in the family and would not allow anyone to sit on "his" couch etc. But like you, they did love him; just not in the way dogs need. He was very food aggressive and needed to be fed in the bathroom so they could close the door on him. I can not go into details about the advice I gave them but they did their home work and within a few days that dog made a 180 turn around without ever needing a physical correction. The main thing was that they started to provide leadership in a way the dog understood. They also had pigs so they put him to work by herding the piggies inside at night so he had a job to do. My experience is that if they accept the new role, things can improve quickly as long as everyone is one one page and consistent. 
This success was unusual because most people don't follow up that well. I hope you will though. Please keep us posted and who knows how quickly things wil improve. But always remain vigilant. Good luck on the new start.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Jennifer, I really hope things start looking up! I can only imagine that you're scared, too, and I hope you feel better after talking to Cliff. Just having someone in your corner can help.


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

Muskeg said:


> I know it is especially hard to train a dog while raising a family. Keep in mind "training" doesn't need to happen at a special location or only at a facility or field. At first, I only wanted to train at set times out on a training field. But that's just not always possible because... life. Train the dog in everyday life, take him out in the driveway and work on recalls, down, heel for five minutes while the kids nap. Take him out in the grocery store parking lot for five minutes after shopping to work on commands, or focus. Keep it simple and make it doable.


Yes! Before I had kids, I'd take a dog outside for some training and playtime, and I'd tell my husband that I'd be back inside in about half an hour, but before I'd know it 1.5-2 hours had passed! Now that we have two kids under three, I don't have the luxury to just let time slip away. 

Sometimes you can incorporate kid stuff and dog stuff. For example, my toddler loves to toss food off the table for the dog--a great moment to practice the "leave it" command. Also, when I change the baby's diaper, Asher loves to come and stick his nose in the way, so I use that that opportunity to have him practice his down/stay. Both the kids and the dogs love being outside. I can let the kiddos play in the backyard sandbox for 15-20 minutes while I train or play tug or throw the ball for the dog (while keeping an eye on the children, of course). On nice days, I like to pack up the kids and a dog and walk at the local greenway. The dog practices loose-leash walking next to the stroller, and occasionally we stop for some training. I don't know what is safe or feasible for you to do with a dog that has been aggressive to you, but these are just a few of the ways that I have found to multi-task dog and kid stuff. I hope that you find a great trainer and have lots of success. Keep us updated.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

That's a bright, beautiful, relaxed, happy " I want to learn" expression of your boy that wouldn't be there if you weren't doing some things right so there is that. He may not like not being told off the couch if that is one of the new rules suggested by the trainer, (it may or may not be and will be a decision between you and the trainer) but even if you have to implement that rule, it's not going to snuff out that happy side of him. 

I will offer; that more than once, I knew my boy was "too much dog" for my novice abilities and more than once I had to swallow my own nerves to do what needed to be done for him and us. Face my own fears, put my foot down with loved ones and stay the course while those closest to me were questioning my choices. It was hard but so worth it.

Your successes will become obvious by the look and the bond that he has to give, it will be unmistakeable and actually addictive. When I saw it in mine, I wanted to keep seeing it so I kept doing what I knew he needed which allowed us to do what he liked to do. 

I hope it becomes the same for you and you continue forward as the lessons and experience will last a life time.


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