# introducing ......



## cindy_s (Jun 14, 2009)

Well, I had decided not to get a new dog right now. Too much stuff going on. I had been looking for a few years at at puppies while I was losing my old guys one by one. I found this one puppy that I ,for some reason, became fixated on. This was the only one that really grabbed my attention. I passed on her. I then found a perfect puppy, but that's when I decided that it wasn't a good time for a new dog. Enter my sister. She came up to visit, and she talked me into looking at this puppy that I was fixated on. So we drove up. I was more interested in looking at a male from another litter. There were 8 puppies flying around and playing, and the original dog I fell in love with ran over to me, sat on my feet and just stared at me. She picked me too. I couldn't imagine a more perfect little girl. She seems to have been trained in the womb! Intense focus. Already has mastered come, sit, down, stay(1 minute) and bring. She walks on the lead with focus. Where did she get this from? She had only like 3 accidents in the house. She's great in her crate. She's perfect! She is so friendly, self confident, and well adjusted. Bad thing is the only thing I can do is mess her up. I'm going to try NOT to do that! On a side note, my 4 yr old Ruger has turned out to be the greatest baby sitter in the world. He is so good with her. The only problem is when the 2 of them get the zoomies in the house! 
So, here is Quinn z Old Farm. 11 weeks old
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/5/611320.html


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

She is a cutie. Though I must question the parentage. How in the world did they breed 2 black dogs together and get a SABLE pup?


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## LukesMom (Jun 12, 2009)

She's beautiful, best of luck with her. Keep updating her pictures as she grows.


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## rgrim84 (May 8, 2009)

So cute!


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## cindy_s (Jun 14, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: BlackGSDShe is a cutie. Though I must question the parentage. How in the world did they breed 2 black dogs together and get a SABLE pup?


Mom is Bicolor


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## Doubleminttwin (Aug 21, 2009)

She is gorgeous and you guys sound like the perfect match! I can't wait to see how she grows up! Congrats on your new pup!


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: cindy_s
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: BlackGSDShe is a cutie. Though I must question the parentage. How in the world did they breed 2 black dogs together and get a SABLE pup?
> ...


Doesn't matter, you MUST have a sable parent to get sable puppies.


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

She is gorgeous but it's true that there's no way to get a sable out of a black and a bicolor. Did the breeder have any sable males?? Most European imports should have been DNA tested to register with AKC (depends when they were imported) so you may be able to test to find out the true parents.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: phgsd Did the breeder have any sable males??


Judging by their website, they have at several sable males.


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## cindy_s (Jun 14, 2009)

Calling the breeder. I hope we can get this fixed


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## HeidiW (Apr 9, 2009)

She is adorabable!!! What a cutie.

I thought if their is a grandparent that is sable the gene can pass down? I thought I read it on this forum from a breeder?


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## littledmc17 (Apr 9, 2008)

She's gorgeous

Tracy brady's pups 4 were sable and 2 b& T 
Brady is bi and Jada was b&T


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## Keegan62 (Aug 17, 2008)

you like here she is a good fit for you and she is adorable who cares about the breeding LOL.......


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: littledmcShe's gorgeous
> 
> Tracy brady's pups 4 were sable and 2 b& T
> Brady is bi and Jada was b&T


Well then apparently *ALL* of the people that are into genetics are wrong. Because there are some things that are said to be 100%:

If you breed a solid black to a solid black, you will get 100% solid black pups. (Same with breeding 2 whites together = 100% white pups.) 

And in order to have sable puppies, at least 1 parent MUST be sable.

If someone tried to sell me a sable pup that didn't have a sable parent, I would not take(buy) it without DNA PROOF that the parents are who they claim they are.


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## Effie325 (Aug 19, 2009)

Your puppy is adorable, and gorgeous!!! I love her


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## cindy_s (Jun 14, 2009)

I spoke to the breeder. She was very angry and insulted. I really didn't mean to sound like they didn't know what they were doing. I was told that there was NO WAY the father is incorrect. I already ordered the DNA test from the AKC. All their dogs are imported and DNA typed. So we shall see. If you guys were wrong, I got someone very upset for no reason.


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## cindy_s (Jun 14, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: littledmcShe's gorgeous
> 
> Tracy brady's pups 4 were sable and 2 b& T
> Brady is bi and Jada was b&T


I wish you posted this BEFORE I contacted the breeder. PS to self. Take internet opinions with a grain of salt!


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: littledmcShe's gorgeous
> 
> Tracy brady's pups 4 were sable and 2 b& T
> Brady is bi and Jada was b&T


If you are talking about Jada von Barren Berg, according to her owner she is a SABLE.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Sable pups can ONLY occur if at least one parent is sable. That is simple genetics. Sable is the dominant color gene, so if a dog has the sable gene to pass along to offspring to make sable pups, it will express that gene and BE sable. That's the way it works.

It is absolutely impossible for two blacks to produce a sable. Or a black and black/tan to produce a sable. Or a black and bi-color. Or a bi-color and black/tan. It just cannot happen.

A more likely scenario is that either a sable male snuck in and bred the bitch or a black/tan parent actually isn't black/tan, but is sable. Some sables are very patterned in appearance and can look like black/tans if one doesn't look closely and know what to look for (banded hairs).


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: BlackGSDIf you are talking about Jada von Barren Berg, according to her owner she is a SABLE.


"Jada is a saddled sable"
http://happycanine.net/_wsn/page2.html


Dante's confusing to a lot of folks as a patterned sable


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: littledmcShe's gorgeous
> 
> Tracy brady's pups 4 were sable and 2 b& T
> Brady is bi and Jada was b&T


Brady is a dark black/tan, not a bi-color.
Jada is a (patterned) sable, not a black/tan.

So with a sable parent, one would expect sable pups.

In the case of the OPs pup, one bi-color parent and one black parent, sable pups are impossible.


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## cindy_s (Jun 14, 2009)

I guess I should change this thread to "who's my daddy". The breeder told me that the bitch has produced sables with a bicolor. Could she possibly be a genetic sable? She read me off her genetic profile, but that didn't help me much. She was really upset. This is not a fly by night operation. I was really impressed. No outside kennel dogs at all. Their dogs are in impeccable condition and have temperments second to none. The DNA test will be done. I guess I'll get it some time next week, and I'll post the results. I assume it will take a few weeks. Either way, the original post was to introduce my new beloved family member. Parentage aside, she is one of the best things that's happened to me in years. And the parentage will be resolved either way.


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

maybe the pup will turn all black


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## GSDTrain (Apr 21, 2008)

adorable!


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: cindy_sI Could she possibly be a genetic sable?


No, not if the papers/pedigree that came with her are correct. Her sire and dam are BOTH black and tan. (As is she according to her breed survey. Which just means that she is NOT a sable or a solid black. They don't have bi-color as one of the choices on the breed survey so they are listed as black and tan.)


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## Effie325 (Aug 19, 2009)

Your baby is gorgeous whoeever the parents are... I'm sure it was an innocent mistake if something is not right, and it'll get sorted out. Enjoy your puppy!


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## Sigurd's Mom (May 12, 2009)

If you look in the litter pedigree there are at least 3 sables in the blood line, it's possible the puppies picked up traits from their relatives... but who cares, your dog is gorgeous!


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Since I'm guessing like the vast majority of us who know being a 'responsible' breeder is just too hard (look at the confusion with your current breeder) and will be spaying your new puppy down the line................... it's just an interesting fact that there may be some confusion on the sable/parentage thing.

It looks like you have a wonderful dog that is perfect for you. And since you won't be breeding, the details of parentage aren't important cause the necessary genetics for future breedings don't need to be known. I'd just drop it with the breeder (doesn't matter with the spay in the future) and put this down as a learning experience. 

So love your puppy, enjoy your puppy that is clearly a drop dead gorgeous GSD. Keep up with the updates and photos!!!


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## cindy_s (Jun 14, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: MaggieRoseLeeSince I'm guessing like the vast majority of us who know being a 'responsible' breeder is just too hard (look at the confusion with your current breeder) and will be spaying your new puppy down the line................... it's just an interesting fact that there may be some confusion on the sable/parentage thing.
> 
> It looks like you have a wonderful dog that is perfect for you. And since you won't be breeding, the details of parentage aren't important cause the necessary genetics for future breedings don't need to be known. I'd just drop it with the breeder (doesn't matter with the spay in the future) and put this down as a learning experience.
> 
> So love your puppy, enjoy your puppy that is clearly a drop dead gorgeous GSD. Keep up with the updates and photos!!!


I paid for a competetion dog. And, I can be a bit of a witch when crossed. If the DNA show this dog to be incorrect, I'll give them a chance to correct it. If not - watch out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I successfully went after a breeder before, and I'll do it again.


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: cindy_s
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: MaggieRoseLeeSince I'm guessing like the vast majority of us who know being a 'responsible' breeder is just too hard (look at the confusion with your current breeder) and will be spaying your new puppy down the line................... it's just an interesting fact that there may be some confusion on the sable/parentage thing.
> ...


so whats the verdict?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Everyone is right on the color genetics

Each dog carries 2 color genes - a dominant and a recessive.

Sable is ALWAYS dominant. Some sables carry 2 sable genes and cannot produce any other color.

Sables can carry black or black/tan as a recessive. A black pup will have both genes black. One parent MUST be sable to produce sable. I have had sable to sable breedings which have produced blacks (my B pups, F litter, H litter) and black tans (G litter) ... therefore I know my female carries black, and that the sire of the Gs had a black/tan recessive. 

There is no way a BT to BT breedong should produce sable. It is POSSIBLE that the female was covered by 2 dogs to produce the litter, adn in that case, DNA will be requried by AKC for each and every pup

Lee


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## geokon_2000 (Jan 25, 2005)

Adorable baby!!!


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

She looks beautiful and I'm sure that she's a joy, but of course it isn't a pleasant feeling to think that you didn't get exactly what you paid for.

I always find it interesting that people who breed don't always know their color genetics. I think if there was a litter I had bred with my Bi and Black dog...and a sable puppy popped out a knowledgeable reaction would be "OH S***! How did that happen?!" And not..."Oh someone carries sable!"

I'm not saying it wasn't a high class operation, I'm not saying that they're not good dogs, but I will say that the fact that they are adamant that this breeding produced sables worries about how much they really know. Not that it matters anymore because you have the puppy. Just remember that in the future if you need to call and ask questions.

Anyway, like said before. The puppy is gorgeous. Who she is as an individual is going to matter so much more than her pedigree. So, you get the paperwork sorted out and enjoy your baby girl!


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## windwalker718 (Oct 9, 2008)

And you never know... you said that their dogs were all good, so maybe the sable sire is an even better dog than the bl/tn who was supposed to be her dad??

I had a situation many years ago where my dog was used to breed, yet when the litter arrived there were a number of colors in the litter. As it was a white/white litter there was absolutely NO WAY this could have been possible. The she finally told me the truth, as the woman had destroyed all but the two white pups in the litter as they were born. (gives me the shudders but she "bucketed" them) This was before DNA testing... she was furious that I refused to register the litter as was the AKC rule @ that time for double coverage on a bitch. Turns out her Daughter had left the dog out in the yard in full blown heat on a chain rather than walk her as she'd been told and she was afraid to tell her mom... So could be that the "Breeders" honestly don't know that a 2nd dog got in on the action. (I've also heard of breedings happening thru a fence!)


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

Just wondering what you found out about your darling pup....and of course we should see new pictures!!


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

The other thing to remember is I'm sure this isn't the only pup in the litter.If there was a mistake and they kept any pups back for breeding it needs to be corrected.
Hurry up with the results already.....


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

A couple of questions...

Is it possible one of the parents is actually a not so apparent sable that was mistakenly identified as B&T or bi?

Is it possible that a dog is genetically sable but the color isn't expressed? IF so, could such a dog be heterozygous for color & the other less dominant color is the one expressed?

Is it known whether penetrance affects color genes?


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

She's so adorable!


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## cindy_s (Jun 14, 2009)

OK. The drum roll ................................................. The baby daddy is http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/611316.html. I feel sorry for the breeders. They saw the other stud tie with the female, and they have no idea what could have happened. I've heard of people finding dogs tied between fences ( how they do that - I do not know). But things could have turned out much worst. The puppy is great and dad is Sch 3, IPO 3. Thank God for DNA!


The link didn't work. He is szecsivari xito


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## cindy_s (Jun 14, 2009)

New picture.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

Glad to hear you got your answer, she's looking awesome!!


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

That would explain where the sable color (and overall good looks) come from! Glad it was resolved. 

See there are some pretty smart folks on this board.









Any new pictures??


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Love your dog but not too impressed by your breeder...

For the people on this board to figure out there was an issue before they did? They should have been backtracking and working on what happened the day the first sable puppy popped out. They immediately don't look like black/tans and the warning bells for confusion should have been LOUD AND CLEAR for a knowledgeable breeder...


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## StryderPup (May 16, 2009)

What an adorable girl! She looks so big! How much does she weigh now?


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## cindy_s (Jun 14, 2009)

I know the breeder situation got me a bit peed off, but the only thing that matters is that all worked out in the end. My first reaction was that I KNEW I shouldn't have gotten a new puppy, and this is what I get for not doing what my head told me to do. But it is all water under the bridge now. She turned out to be a great little girl. She is about the right size. At 5 months she is 20.5 inches and 54 lbs.


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