# Not everyone wants a Schutzhund dog.....



## W.Oliver

....I read that in another thread, and it seems reasonable, because not every pup in a litter produced in a working dog kennel is appropriate for work...herding or schutzhund....and since we do not cull in today's world, companion homes are necessary. 

Having said that, those "companion" dogs that have not/cannot establish breed worthiness by titling, should not be bred simply to produce more companion dogs....this is where I start to get heartburn.

The GSD is a working dog, plain and simple and just as not every pup is appropriate to work, not every owner is appropriate to own even a companion GSD let alone a working GSD.

So it begs my question which is somewhat rhetorical....why no working title requirements for "American Show Lines" are they the companion line of GSDs? 

If I was going to get a German Shorthaired Pointer, even though I do not hunt, I would look for a kennel that breeds gun dogs. Folks who hunt their dogs, and breed for the best bird dog they can...one that meets not only the standard for the breed but the tradition of the breed....and I would ask the breeder for a companion pup, one that may not be as cut-out for working a field and flushing game....and what I would have would still be a reasonable representative of this sporting breed. 

If the GSD doesn't herd or bite, and if the Pointer doesn't hunt...isn't it evolving into something different?

Does that comparison make any sense?


----------



## ayoitzrimz

opcorn:


----------



## Emoore

Are you saying that the AKC or GSDCA should institute working title requirements, or that buyers should have their own? Because the former just isn't going to happen, and I believe the latter is pushed on this forum rather heavily.


----------



## vomlittlehaus

Makes absolute sense. Remember, common sense is not so common.There are NO requirements for anything in the United States of America for a dog. Our standards are pretty low as a whole. Responsible breeders have stepped up to the plate and demanded standards for themselves. The are ASL breeders that do health checks and titles on their dogs. My GSD doesnt bite or herd, but she is a great companion, titled in AKC obedience, and has passed her health checks. She comes from working lines and looks like the GSD's reminiscent of the 1960's. What did they do with dogs 60 years ago that werent culled at birth. Not everything is evident at birth. I am sure puppies from those litters were kept as companion dogs as well.


----------



## Chicagocanine

W.Oliver said:


> So it begs my question which is somewhat rhetorical....why no working title requirements for "American Show Lines" are they the companion line of GSDs?


I think it is common for "show" breeders to focus on conformation. I am referring mostly to AKC show breeders here, not just in the GSD but in general any breed. Although some show breeders do other activities with their dogs, I think many just focus primarily on conformation titles and are breeding primarily for show dogs.
It is common in many breeds that there is a division between "show" and "working" dogs. Often times this is not just in the goals of the kennel/breeder but there are two or more separate lines of dogs and they differ in appearance to some extent. You find this in many breeds but especially in herding/sporting breeds: Golden Retrievers (field vs. show), Irish Setters, Labs, Australian Shepherds, Border Collies, Cocker Spaniels, and so on.

Examples:
Show vs Working Cockers - Janan Cocker Spaniels
Australian Shepherd Herding and Show Line Differences - Pure Stock Aussies
LABRADORNET - Show and Field
Field vs Show ESS's
Irish Setters


----------



## Lucy Dog

Kaz... Is that you?


----------



## Whiteshepherds

I agree with everything you wrote, was just curious to know which titles you would classify as working titles?


----------



## selzer

I think that there is a chasm between the working line thought and the show line thought. Both think there's is the best and truly meets the breed standard. Showline breeders may think that you can title any dog, but you can only put a conformation championship on the elite. Working line people think and say, any dog can trot around a ring, but only the elite can work. 

If show dogs go and get schutzhund titles, working line fanciers will just say that the titles are boughten or that schutzhund isn't what it used to be. A schutzhund title or a herding title does not ensure that the dog can work as a police dog, service dog, or herding dog as its regular job. Schutzhund is trained, just like obedience, agility, protection, herding, tracking, etc. If you have one dog and put your heart and soul into that dog, regardless of its native ability and lack of nerve, you can train that dog to do just about anything. Does that make it breedworthy? Is it breedworthy because you managed to get an acceptable on all three stages on the same day? Maybe, maybe not. 

You go ahead and try and force American line GSDs to get schutzhund titles on their dogs, but in order to breed your dog, you need to get an AKC championship on your working line dog. There ya go. Whose dogs are by and large going to be bred? I personally think the people with AKC champions will be able to finagle schutzhund titles on their dogs before by and large working line dogs get AKC championships.


----------



## martemchik

Again, its centered towards American show lines. What requirements are there to breed German show lines? Or German working lines? There will never be requirements in the United States because the AKC is a volunteer registration organization, and the market just doesn't demand that dogs are titled. Also there is no way of regulating such requirements. In Germany, they are self regulated, and the dogs are cheaper. There isn't a need for lower priced dogs as a lot of dogs are already affordable. This is because it doesn't take as big of a monetary commitment to train the parents and title the parents as it does in the United States. In my mind its all economics, but lets not just throw it on one line, its all the lines. There are plenty of breeders importing and not doing anything to work their dogs and reaping the benefits of other people's work, would it make you feel better to buy from one of those breeders or one that actually cares about their animals and does show them in a conformation ring?


----------



## Holmeshx2

Wayne I completely get what your saying. There are some showline breeders that believe in worrying about conformation but also temperment and having the drives they should have.. granted they may not be producing world lvl competitors in the sports but their dogs CAN work and I believe those breeders are doing a great service to the breed. Those showline breeders that are creating dogs that can barely walk but have the angulation judges are looking for etc.. well they are just ruining the breed... paint a picture of the most gorgeous shepherd you could think of and go trot around the ring holding the picture up if you just want it to look good.. the breed is meant for more then that. While I'm not against showline breeders I just believe there are few who are doing it right. Thankfully we have some on this board who breed showlines (gorgeous ones) but they still have some drive to them and can get into some sports if their owners choose to. I do not however think those that go into companion homes should be bred the breeding should be left solely to those that can work either by titling and proving it or by dogs that are out there actually working in things that don't take titles (actually working a farm all day, police work etc..)

All for if you want to be extra careful to make sure its a dog with great conformation etc.. however still think outside of the ring they need to be training and doing other stuff... beauty without brains gets you nowhere


----------



## BR870

selzer said:


> You go ahead and try and force American line GSDs to get schutzhund titles on their dogs, but in order to breed your dog, you need to get an AKC championship on your working line dog. There ya go. Whose dogs are by and large going to be bred? I personally think the people with AKC champions will be able to finagle schutzhund titles on their dogs before by and large working line dogs get AKC championships.


Working line dogs in the SV system do have to get a conformation rating, not just the show line dogs. Not an AKC one, but an SV rating. And this shows the dog does meet minimum conformation requirements, much like an SchH1 is the _MINIMUM_ work rating.

Thats what the whole G, SG, V rating at the front of the name is for.

Working or Show, they both are required to have the breed survey, show rating, and SchH title...


----------



## Mrs.K

BR870 said:


> Working line dogs in the SV system do have to get a conformation rating, not just the show line dogs. Not an AKC one, but an SV rating. And this shows the dog does meet minimum conformation requirements, much like an SchH1 is the _MINIMUM_ work rating.
> 
> Thats what the whole G, SG, V rating at the front of the name is for.
> 
> Working or Show, they both are required to have the breed survey, show rating, and SchH title...


Show Rating, BH, AD, SchH1, Koerung (breed evaluation which makes it all official and allows you to breed and get the pink papers)

If you don't get the Show Rating before the dog is two years of age, the dog moves into the working class and has got to be titled with the SchH1 before the dog can get the Show Rating.


----------



## BR870

Mrs.K said:


> Show Rating, BH, AD, SchH1, Koerung (breed evaluation which makes it all official and allows you to breed and get the pink papers)
> 
> If you don't get the Show Rating before the dog is two years of age, the dog moves into the working class and has got to be titled with the SchH1 before the dog can get the Show Rating.


Right. Point being that its a false argument to say that workingline dogs are not required to do conformation, because they are.


----------



## Mrs.K

BR870 said:


> Right. Point being that its a false argument to say that workingline dogs are not required to do conformation, because they are.


Yes, that is why I posted what a dog actually needs. There is absolutely no difference between Show and Working line Dogs. Both type of dogs have got to have the same thing. 

However, you can replace the SchH1 with the HGH so I should have said:

Show/Working Line needs:* Show Rating, BH, AD, SchH1 OR HGH, Koerung*


----------



## selzer

The German Show line dogs have their schutzhund titles, koer, endurance test, show rating, hip and elbow, dna and we hear over and again that schutzhund isn't what it used to be, they bought their title, etc. They jump the hoops and it is not enough. Do you think AKC people do not hear all of this. What is the point? 

A show rating is a bit different than a championship. A championship is so many points, you must defeat all dogs to get points, you must get major points, meaning a class size of so many dogs. Every dog that shows up on show day with no disqualifying faults is not going to get points, they are not going to get the championship. They go home completely empty and put forth their money on another day, and another and another. 

I the German system it is a bit different. Dogs are rated VA, V, SG, etc. And many, many dogs go home with their rating. I find it disheartening to hear people diss the champions, because a champion is a big deal. I worked much harder in conformation classes than I ever worked in obedience, rally, or agility with my dog. The dog has to be trained to gait, trained to stand and stack and not sit. Judges are supposed to measure temperament as well. And there are certificates for temperament TT. At the nationals, there are herding trials, and some dogs are rated VA, and to be rated VA the dog must jump through hoops.

As for titles, that is on the buyers. If buyers want their showline dog to be titled in more than conformation, they can be. They can have a variety of titles. Dallas was a herding champion I think. There are other hurdles the AKC offers. One is the ROM, which gives so many points for the progeny for each ch, for each title etc. The eligible dog or bitch must have earned some points, but they are by and far measured by their progeny.


----------



## msvette2u

This is nothing. You ought to be on a pit bull forum when they discuss what those dogs _should_ do, since, you know, they fight each other and it's now illegal. 

This ought to be good.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Nanny dog titles? They can have baby sitting rings.....  

Amadeaus von pittie BSR3

*sorry couldn't resist* 




msvette2u said:


> This is nothing. You ought to be on a pit bull forum when they discuss what those dogs _should_ do, since, you know, they fight each other and it's now illegal.
> 
> This ought to be good.


----------



## Liesje

Mrs.K said:


> Yes, that is why I posted what a dog actually needs. There is absolutely no difference between Show and Working line Dogs. Both type of dogs have got to have the same thing.
> 
> However, you can replace the SchH1 with the HGH so I should have said:
> 
> Show/Working Line needs:* Show Rating, BH, AD, SchH1 OR HGH, Koerung*


The HGH also replaces the AD and the BH, if I'm not mistaken. Also a dog over 6 does not need an AD.


----------



## lhczth

To play the devils advocate; why don't more working line dogs in the USA get conformation ratings before breeding? Why do their owners not feel that at least meeting the minimum conformation requirements of the standard are important?


----------



## Mrs.K

lhczth said:


> To play the devils advocate; why don't more working line dogs in the USA get conformation ratings before breeding? Why do their owners not feel that at least meeting the minimum conformation requirements of the standard are important?


Because "Leistung macht Schoen". meaning "Performance is Beauty"

However, I do agree, the minimum standard should be required. 
Indra is a minimum standard dog conformation wise. She's absolutely not a pretty dog conformation wise even though everybody says she's pretty...as in "pet-pretty". Mom said that the first day she saw her and my Dad was like "the performance will make her pretty"


----------



## holland

:thumbup::thumbup:


lhczth said:


> To play the devils advocate; why don't more working line dogs in the USA get conformation ratings before breeding? Why do their owners not feel that at least meeting the minimum conformation requirements of the standard are important?


----------



## Mrs.K

However, I'd much rather have a not so pretty dog that can work instead of a dog that could win any conformation title but can't be used for anything outside that ring


----------



## lhczth

Not saying the dogs need to VA or even V (though most nice working dogs can SG and some can V), but they should at least meet the minium standard for our breed. There are disqualifying faults that should not be bred and there are structural weaknesses that can shorten a dog's working career (like poor fronts, bad feet, weak pasterns, long backs, etc).


----------



## NewbieShepherdGirl

Mrs.K said:


> Because "Leistung macht Schoen". meaning "Performance is Beauty"


I like this! When I go to get my working line dog (who will be used in real work. I will be buying a dog for real herding purposes.) my primary concern is not going to be how the dog can stand in a ring, if it has perfect pigment, etc. I'm gonna want to know if the dog I'm buying can do the job I'm buying it for. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that one of the reasons border collies don't have a set standard for color/size? I don't know this for 100% just thought I read it somewhere.


----------



## NewbieShepherdGirl

lhczth said:


> Not saying the dogs need to VA or even V (though most nice working dogs can SG and some can V), but they should at least meet the minium standard for our breed. There are disqualifying faults that should not be bred and there are structural weaknesses that can shorten a dog's working career (like poor fronts, bad feet, weak pasterns, long backs, etc).


In theory though wouldn't those things fix themselves if the emphasis is on working? I'm asking because one would think if the emphasis is on working that people wouldn't want to buy dogs that have to be retired young, and the breeder would be forced to fix the problem.


----------



## W.Oliver

lhczth said:


> To play the devils advocate; why don't more working line dogs in the USA get conformation ratings before breeding? Why do their owners not feel that at least meeting the minimum conformation requirements of the standard are important?


Agreed....I would like to see what Indy and I could do in conformation....next time we're together, maybe you could take a real look at her and tell me if we'd be wasting our time???? It would at least be fun to see what would happen!


----------



## Mrs.K

lhczth said:


> Not saying the dogs need to VA or even V (though most nice working dogs can SG and some can V), but they should at least meet the minium standard for our breed. There are disqualifying faults that should not be bred and there are structural weaknesses that can shorten a dog's working career (like poor fronts, bad feet, weak pasterns, long backs, etc).



I think we should separate beauty (conformation) from effective body structures. A V rating doesn't give you a dog that can work and I think the effective body structure of the dog is not taken into consideration when they rate the dogs.


----------



## Ponypip123

To be another kind of devil's advocate, the European system of evaluation, of which I'm much more familiar with in the horse (warmblood) world, really weeds out people that don't have a large amount of extra, spendable income. I think the United States is so large population wise that there will always be dogs and even competitions in many price ranges. Just because someone doesn't have several thousand dollars to invest in their dog initially, should those people never have a German Shepherd? :laugh:


----------



## holland

Good point!!


----------



## msvette2u

Nobody can seem to breed a "total package", including conformation and working ability? Is it that much of a mystery??


----------



## martemchik

Ponypip123 said:


> To be another kind of devil's advocate, the European system of evaluation, of which I'm much more familiar with in the horse (warmblood) world, really weeds out people that don't have a large amount of extra, spendable income. I think the United States is so large population wise that there will always be dogs and even competitions in many price ranges. Just because someone doesn't have several thousand dollars to invest in their dog initially, should those people never have a German Shepherd? :laugh:


Those people should have a German Shepherd, but not breed them. In the United States it is still all about money. I drive an average of 1 hour to get to the closest AKC obedience trial which pops up once a month. I don't know how long I would have to drive to find a Schutzhund trial. I know that I would have to drive an hour just to find a Schutzhund club.

Its also not that no one can breed the perfect package, its that no one can agree on what that is...


----------



## horsegirl

selzer said:


> I think that there is a chasm between the working line thought and the show line thought. Both think there's is the best and truly meets the breed standard. Showline breeders may think that you can title any dog, but you can only put a conformation championship on the elite. Working line people think and say, any dog can trot around a ring, but only the elite can work.
> 
> If show dogs go and get schutzhund titles, working line fanciers will just say that the titles are boughten or that schutzhund isn't what it used to be. A schutzhund title or a herding title does not ensure that the dog can work as a police dog, service dog, or herding dog as its regular job. Schutzhund is trained, just like obedience, agility, protection, herding, tracking, etc. If you have one dog and put your heart and soul into that dog, regardless of its native ability and lack of nerve, you can train that dog to do just about anything. Does that make it breedworthy? Is it breedworthy because you managed to get an acceptable on all three stages on the same day? Maybe, maybe not.
> 
> You go ahead and try and force American line GSDs to get schutzhund titles on their dogs, but in order to breed your dog, you need to get an AKC championship on your working line dog. There ya go. Whose dogs are by and large going to be bred? I personally think the people with AKC champions will be able to finagle schutzhund titles on their dogs before by and large working line dogs get AKC championships.


like


----------



## Liesje

msvette2u said:


> Nobody can seem to breed a "total package", including conformation and working ability? Is it that much of a mystery??


Look at a dog like Javir. Two times V-rated at the BSZS, including showing a progeny group. Numerous top placements at the high level. Universal Sieger. Great specimen of GSD and a little fun fact, he's a house dog.


----------



## Liesje

I am not bothered that a dog can earn a rating its first time in the SV ring and can earn a lifetime breed survey after two breed surveys. How is a dog's conformation going to change once it is an adult? The point of SV shows and breed surveys is to evaluate the dog for breeding and part of that is conformation. Most people are not competitive, they don't want to show their dog a dozen times for years to get a special title like an AKC CH. I have nothing against people wanting to be competitive with conformation, since I'm competitive with a lot of things, but there's a difference between being competitive and getting your dog evaluated. A dog should not have to be in an exclusive group in order to be used for breeding. Then we just bottleneck this breed even more than it already is. Most of my favorite dogs as far as conformation are mid-pack V-rated dogs (show and working lines) not the VA1 dogs or Grand Victors. A dog does not have to be the winner at anything much less more than one thing in order to be breed worthy, IMO.


----------



## RubyTuesday

> However, I'd much rather have a not so pretty dog that can work instead of a dog that could win any conformation title but can't be used for anything outside that ring


Sadly, the extreme structure that usually wins in the show ring is, IMO, aesthetically hideous. Frankly, most of those dogs are, again IMO, truly not at all 'pretty'. Pretty color? Sure...Pretty head? Sometimes. Pretty structure? Bleh. This is true, IMO, of many of the fad extremes sought after in show dogs in so many breeds. All too often health, longevity, temperament & basic function are also sacrificed in the quest for the 'ideal show dog'. 



> A show rating is a bit different than a championship. A championship is so many points, you must defeat all dogs to get points, you must get major points, meaning a class size of so many dogs. Every dog that shows up on show day with no disqualifying faults is not going to get points, they are not going to get the championship. They go home completely empty and put forth their money on another day, and another and another.


Unfortunately, the champion GSDs I've seen in my area (Eastern Iowa) are ghastly examples of not just the breed, but of dogs in general. It grieves me to say it, but when I last bothered looking at them some years ago, they were snappy, anxious, poorly focussed wrecks of what a dog s/b, never mind what a working dog should exemplify.At one show, every GSD (which included Champions), EVERY SINGLE ONE , snipped at the judge. When crated they lunged & snarled. On lead they shied & cringed. And in my area at least, this was the norm, not the exception.

Yes, there are several outstanding SL breeders on this board. Unfortunately, what I've personally seen, indicates those breeders are the rare exception, not the rule. Given my personal observations, I can't consider a Championship to be an asset or an indicator of good breeding.



> How is a dog's conformation going to change once it is an adult? The point of SV shows and breed surveys is to evaluate the dog for breeding and part of that is conformation.


Some break down prematurely. For others, genetic anomalies don't strike until the dog is matured & already capable of breeding. I'm much more impressed with a dog that looks good at 11 than one that shines at 2 or 3. For slower maturing dogs, even temperament can continue to develop into the 3rd & 4th year. Someone's 2-4 yr old dogs might _get_ my attention, but it's the 10-12 yr olds that hold my attention.



> A dog should not have to be in an exclusive group in order to be used for breeding. Then we just bottleneck this breed even more than it already is.


Absolutely. That's an excellent point & bears repeating.

Also, it's (IMO) important to recognize that from the beginnings of the breed, the GSD was an outstanding & much valued companion, as well as utility working dog. The numerous photos in the Capt's book, & his abiding affection for his dogs, amply establishes that. GSDs unsuited as companions are a travesty & a betrayal of the Capt's vision. Given the necessary socialization, training, mental & physical exercise, a well bred GSD should be a reliable companion & family member.


----------



## Liesje

RubyTuesday said:


> Some break down prematurely. For others, genetic anomalies don't strike until the dog is matured & already capable of breeding. I'm much more impressed with a dog that looks good at 11 than one that shines at 2 or 3. For slower maturing dogs, even temperament can continue to develop into the 3rd & 4th year. Someone's 2-4 yr old dogs might _get_ my attention, but it's the 10-12 yr olds that hold my attention.


But the breed survey is just that a BREED survey. Dogs 2 years to usually 6 years old. Dogs being evaluated for breeding are generally 2 years or older and not 10-12 years old. Same with the adult classes in the SV shows. There is a veterans class for giving a nod to an older, accomplished dog but the point of the event is to evaluate a dog for breeding, which is why the critiques note what the dog could improve and what the mate could improve on.


----------



## robinhuerta

Since I'm one of those believers that a title does not make a good dog....but a good dog can make a title......I also happen to be one of those people that want it all.
I don't want an ugly dog that can work...nor do I want a beautiful dog that possesses no working ability, and is a living caricature.

*I want a beautiful/pretty dog that has the capabilities of work that is defined for this breed....nothing more, nothing less.* 
One does not need to be the BEST of what it does....but it better be able to do it. JMO


----------



## bocron

W.Oliver said:


> If the GSD doesn't herd or bite, and if the Pointer doesn't hunt...isn't it evolving into something different?
> 
> Does that comparison make any sense?



I recall a few years back (maybe 10-15) when AKC didn't even recognize a Schutzhund title. (They also tried to ban dogs that participated in the sport from competing in AKC events as well!)
IIRC the SV sent notice to the AKC that they must recognize the titles from the breeds home country and even better, promote it, or the SV and hence the FCI would no longer recognize AKC papers. They also made a statement that they could possibly recognize the registrations, but that the breed would be re-named a North American Shepherd and no longer a German Shepherd. This is one of the reasons the GSDCA-WDA came to be. 
I'm still hoping the SV/FCI will get some gumption and go ahead with it.


----------



## RubyTuesday

Lies, I agree, but it's wise to evaluate a stud's or dam's breed worthiness throughout their lives as perceptions & realities can change. To do this formally might be inconvenient, but I'd think/hope that breeders do a current analysis of dam & stud as well as rely on earlier documentation.


----------



## Liesje

Agree, I would never rely on breed surveys exclusively to make breeding decisions but they are there to reaffirm certain things and must be done at least twice, I believe two years apart. Furthermore if a dog is campaigning for VA the judges want to have seen that dog on several occasions plus several progeny. I just brought these things up in response to the comments about how a CH is difficult to get and a dog can get a rating or a breed survey as a once-off, which is not entirely true, but more to the point that these are just minimum standards for breeding so they aren't going to be as competitive as something like an AKC CH nor should be.


----------



## BlackJack

We can agree the SV system isn't perfect, far from it, but its still miles ahead better than what we have in the US right now. If the GSDCA would take ownership of the breed like the SV in the US it would be a improvement in my opinion. **** it would be start if hips/dm scores were required for the AKC right now, I would take that.


----------



## Andaka

The difference in AKC and the SV is that the AKC is strictly an all-breed registry, so any requirements would have to be implemented across all of the breeds. The GSDCA _could_ require its members to do health tests, etc., but then the breeders who didn't want to meet the requirements would just leave the club. And what about the "breeders" who already don't register their dogs with AKC? What impact will regulations from AKC have on them?


----------



## Mrs.K

BlackJack said:


> We can agree the SV system isn't perfect, far from it, but its still miles ahead better than what we have in the US right now. If the GSDCA would take ownership of the breed like the SV in the US it would be a improvement in my opinion. **** it would be start if hips/dm scores were required for the AKC right now, I would take that.


There is no such thing as a perfect system. There will always be people that take a system and corrupt it. It's within the human nature.


----------



## martemchik

Any voluntary system won't work. The AKC already doesn't work and its not because of the breeders its because of the customers! I've seen at least 5 threads start up in the past month about new dogs and when a pedigree is asked for you get the "We really only wanted a family pet so we didn't care about papers." If people don't care about AKC papers already what will get them to care about GSDCA papers or any other club papers?


----------



## Mrs.K

martemchik said:


> Any voluntary system won't work. The AKC already doesn't work and its not because of the breeders its because of the customers! I've seen at least 5 threads start up in the past month about new dogs and when a pedigree is asked for you get the "We really only wanted a family pet so we didn't care about papers." If people don't care about AKC papers already what will get them to care about GSDCA papers or any other club papers?



Actually, if you buy a dog in Germany from a breeder, you will get the papers if you want them or not. So the dog does have papers. If you become a member, send in the paper and register the dog in your name to make it official, is another story. Unless you lose them, you don't have to pay for the papers since they are already included and always belong to the dog.


----------



## Mrs.K

Andaka said:


> The difference in AKC and the SV is that the AKC is strictly an all-breed registry, so any requirements would have to be implemented across all of the breeds. The GSDCA _could_ require its members to do health tests, etc., but then the breeders who didn't want to meet the requirements would just leave the club. And what about the "breeders" who already don't register their dogs with AKC? What impact will regulations from AKC have on them?



I always thought it was more like the VDH.... The VDH is the umbrella and covering lots of different breeds. Each breed has their own standard and titling system. Why can't it be more like that?


----------



## Liesje

Mrs.K said:


> I always thought it was more like the VDH.... The VDH is the umbrella and covering lots of different breeds. Each breed has their own standard and titling system. Why can't it be more like that?


It is like that, but the GSDCA doesn't have any health or titling requirements.


----------



## martemchik

Liesje said:


> It is like that, but the GSDCA doesn't have any health or titling requirements.


I guess what I'm getting at is that even if it did have titling/health requirements people wouldn't care. The customers don't care. And we would have more of what the forum calls "byb" because they don't meet even higher standards then what is already put in place (not really standards just that both dogs have papers lol). Puppies would cost even more due to higher costs for the breeder for now also having to join GSDCA and we'd have even more people going to sub-standard breeders. It all comes down to educating the public on whats good and not worry so much about what standards the breeders should be practicing. If the public only bought from reputable breeders, who already breed on a higher ethical/moral ground, we wouldn't care that there aren't standards in place, they would just be expected.


----------



## lhczth

In Germany each breed club is its own registering body. In the USA the AKC is the registering body. There is a huge difference in control. The GSDCA can occasionally change the standard and they could have titling and health requirements for their specialty, but that is about it. The AKC has total control over registrations.


----------



## Lauri & The Gang

lhczth said:


> In Germany each breed club is its own registering body. In the USA the AKC is the registering body. There is a huge difference in control. The GSDCA can occasionally change the standard and they could have titling and health requirements for their specialty, but that is about it. The AKC has total control over registrations.


Their not the only game in town.

The UKC and IABCA are both viable conformation venues.


----------



## lhczth

They are the only game in town as far as world recognized registries.


----------



## codmaster

Liesje said:


> Look at a dog like Javir. Two times V-rated at the BSZS, including showing a progeny group. Numerous top placements at the high level. Universal Sieger. Great specimen of GSD and a little fun fact, he's a house dog.


 
Wonder how many of the top ScH dogs are house dogs? 

Or for that matter, wonder how many top AKC champs are house dogs?

Also wonder how many folks talking about how great the SV system is - would like an organization telling him/her whether or not you can breed your bitch to a particular stud dog?

Or the GSDCA telling all you working line GSD fanciers thAT YOU CAN'T BREED YOUR DOG (OR AT LEAST CAN'T REGISTER THE LITTER) UNLESS YOU HAVE EARNED A CH)? Just wondering! (excuse the caps - hit the wrong key and didn't notice till too late)


Not me! Too much govt. in lives now!


----------



## codmaster

Liesje said:


> I am not bothered that a dog can earn a rating its first time in the SV ring and can earn a lifetime breed survey after two breed surveys. How is a dog's conformation going to change once it is an adult? The point of SV shows and breed surveys is to evaluate the dog for breeding and part of that is conformation. Most people are not competitive, they don't want to show their dog a dozen times for years to get a special title like an AKC CH. I have nothing against people wanting to be competitive with conformation, since I'm competitive with a lot of things, but there's a difference between being competitive and getting your dog evaluated. A dog should not have to be in an exclusive group in order to be used for breeding. Then we just bottleneck this breed even more than it already is. Most of my favorite dogs as far as conformation are mid-pack V-rated dogs (show and working lines) not the VA1 dogs or Grand Victors. A dog does not have to be the winner at anything much less more than one thing in order to be breed worthy, IMO.


So only two judges have to say a dog is good for it to be breed worthy in the foreign system?

That is a very big difference in the foreign and the US system of judging.

Since i am not that familiar with the SV conformation system - can we assume that it is very uniform and multiple judges would place or rank a class of dogs the same if they saw the same set of dogs. Without all of the politics and such nonsense that a lot of folks in the US breed show circuits seem to thrive on?


----------



## Mrs.K

codmaster said:


> Wonder how many of the top ScH dogs are house dogs?
> 
> *More than you'd expect. Not everyone competing is a breeder and most sport people actually do keep their dogs in the house. Especially your champion. *
> 
> Or for that matter, wonder how many top AKC champs are house dogs?
> 
> Also wonder how many folks talking about how great the SV system is - would like an organization telling him/her whether or not you can breed your bitch to a particular stud dog?
> 
> *What do you mean? As long as the dogs are gekoered you can chose for yourself which dog you breed to. *
> 
> Or the GSDCA telling all you working line GSD fanciers thAT YOU CAN'T BREED YOUR DOG (OR AT LEAST CAN'T REGISTER THE LITTER) UNLESS YOU HAVE EARNED A CH)? Just wondering! (excuse the caps - hit the wrong key and didn't notice till too late)
> 
> 
> Not me! Too much govt. in lives now!


So you think quality control shouldn't be done?


----------



## codmaster

Mrs.K said:


> So you think quality control shouldn't be done?


 
k,

Nope - of course I do not think that way - it is just a question of who should do it. Guess I am a typical American - don't want some govt/official organization beuarocrat(SP?) telling me what/how to do my hobby! The less of that the better.

So do you think that the folks in the GSDCA could do bgetter "quality control" than you can - if so, then they should do it.

BTW, what do you mean by "quality control" in GSD's? 

Are you refering to judging the dogs - if so, conformation or obedience or tracking or bite work or herding or ?????????? SAR?, K9? Drug Detection? Therapy dogs?


----------



## cliffson1

In the opening post the question is raised about everyone wanting a Sch dog? My question is what the heck is a "Schutzhund" dog. Schutzhund is only a competition like Companion dog(CD). There is no classification of Sch dogs!!!!....only people that have misperceptions of Sch and thus visualize a certain type of dog. Every breedable dog in German is a Sch dog...HELLOOOOOO! So that means all of the dogs, are whatever the misinformed perception of Sch dog, in drives and temperament?????
Germany has so many soft dogs today that wouldn't bite butter. So what is a Sch dog???
On another point, if individual breeders had the knowledge and integrity to not change the breed into what they like or what they can handle, then we wouldn't need organizations to set criteria for the breed. America has had a free hand in determining the course of the breed since the breed was introduced to this country.....I would daresay that except for the people who are involved in the direction that American has developed the breed, no other country or organization sees the American development of the breed with its less intrusive involvement as positve or correct. Of course some people will disagree with my assessment, but I think MOST people will understand and concur though not willing to express it like I am.
So again, I still don't know what a Sch dog is?


----------



## Mrs.K

cliffson1 said:


> In the opening post the question is raised about everyone wanting a Sch dog? My question is what the heck is a "Schutzhund" dog. Schutzhund is only a competition like Companion dog(CD). There is no classification of Sch dogs!!!!....only people that have misperceptions of Sch and thus visualize a certain type of dog. Every breedable dog in German is a Sch dog...HELLOOOOOO! So that means all of the dogs, are whatever the misinformed perception of Sch dog, in drives and temperament?????
> Germany has so many soft dogs today that wouldn't bite butter. So what is a Sch dog???
> On another point, if individual breeders had the knowledge and integrity to not change the breed into what they like or what they can handle, then we wouldn't need organizations to set criteria for the breed. America has had a free hand in determining the course of the breed since the breed was introduced to this country.....I would daresay that except for the people who are involved in the direction that American has developed the breed, no other country or organization sees the American development of the breed with its less intrusive involvement as positve or correct. Of course some people will disagree with my assessment, but I think MOST people will understand and concur though not willing to express it like I am.
> So again, I still don't know what a Sch dog is?


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## Liesje

codmaster said:


> So only two judges have to say a dog is good for it to be breed worthy in the foreign system?


Conformation judges, the a-stamp and/or OFA panel, the judge of the BH, the judge of the Schutzhund or HGH trial. You cannot present a dog to a judge for their survey or re-survey without all the requirements.


----------



## Whiteshepherds

codmaster said:


> k,
> So do you think that the folks in the GSDCA could do bgetter "quality control" than you can - if so, then they should do it.


I've always thought a breeds parent club had some pretty basic obligations, the first being to uphold the standard. In my opinion the GSDCA could do a better job.

I'm not overly familiar with the SV breed survey in regards to whether or not it's doing what it was intended to do, but at least the SV makes an attempt to weed out faulty dogs. The GSDCA seems to work on the basis of "the more the merrier" rather than quality control. Sometimes I wonder if the Board of Directors at the GSDCA have ever read the standard.


----------



## martemchik

The GSDCA is working on informing the public just like all local dog clubs. Its meant to educate the general public on what is good and what is bad. I think of it this way, someone gets a dog from a byb, not registered or anything, they somehow get wind of GSDCA and want to join/participate in the AKC trials and what not. They read the review every month and see all the successful dogs. Their next one, they will get from a good breeder so they can do whatever they want with their dog.

So I see no issue with the way the GSDCA does things. Pet owners in America are different than the ones in Germany. In Germany there are SchH clubs everywhere, and amazing GSDs everywhere so people want one. They have accepted that dog breeding is controlled. No one here wants the control...every time the government comes up with a small little thing there is an outrage on the forum about personal freedoms and liberties, so do you think that the GSDCA making more rules would do anything to prevent lesser breedings from occuring?


----------



## codmaster

martemchik said:


> The GSDCA is working on informing the public just like all local dog clubs. Its meant to educate the general public on what is good and what is bad. I think of it this way, someone gets a dog from a byb, not registered or anything, they somehow get wind of GSDCA and want to join/participate in the AKC trials and what not. They read the review every month and see all the successful dogs. Their next one, they will get from a good breeder so they can do whatever they want with their dog.
> 
> So I see no issue with the way the GSDCA does things. Pet owners in America are different than the ones in Germany. In Germany there are SchH clubs everywhere, and amazing GSDs everywhere so people want one.* They have accepted that dog breeding is controlled. No one here wants the control...*every time the government comes up with a small little thing there is an outrage on the forum about personal freedoms and liberties, so do you think that the GSDCA making more rules would do anything to prevent lesser breedings from occuring?


Exactly! Said better than I could have!

(Hey, we agree!!!!!!!)


----------



## cliffson1




----------



## Mrs.K

> *They have accepted that dog breeding is controlled. No one here wants the control...*every time the government comes up with a small little thing there is an outrage on the forum about personal freedoms and liberties, so do you think that the GSDCA making more rules would do anything to prevent lesser breedings from occuring?


I blame the english crown. Well done GB.


----------



## Emoore

Mrs.K said:


> I blame the english crown. Well done GB.


We should totally rebel against them.


----------



## martemchik

codmaster said:


> Exactly! Said better than I could have!
> 
> (Hey, we agree!!!!!!!)


When have we not agreed? I'm just done hypothesizing what can be done in order to return the breed back to what it was in its infancy. Having a true working breed is a pipe dream, dogs are mainly pets and so I believe there is a place for all the lines within the GSD breed. To expect people to purchase a different breed just because their lifestyle doesn't fit a working dogs will never happen. That's like telling someone, "Don't buy that Ferrari, buy a Prius, you can't drive faster than 65 mph in the United States anyways." People have the means to purchase, and they will purchase. Its better to lead them to a good purchase (a reputable breeder) then turn them away and make them go to a byb that might give them a dog they can't handle and it ends up in the pound or worse biting someone.

Until a majority of people start trialing (even AKC) their dogs, and I'm talking all dogs, the general thought in the United States will remain "A dog is a dog." I'm willing to bet less than 1% of the dogs in the United States have ever seen trial of any type and until that changes the GSD temperament will range from a prey driven Schutzhund beast to a 140 lb couch potato.


----------



## onyx'girl

I love my SchH dog, that is all that matters. He wouldn't go far in the KKL world, as the saying goes "the beauty is in the eye of the beholder". :wub:


----------



## Dainerra

martemchik said:


> To expect people to purchase a different breed just because their lifestyle doesn't fit a working dogs will never happen. That's like telling someone, "Don't buy that Ferrari, buy a Prius, you can't drive faster than 65 mph in the United States anyways." People have the means to purchase, and they will purchase. Its better to lead them to a good purchase (a reputable breeder) then turn them away and make them go to a byb that might give them a dog they can't handle and it ends up in the pound or worse biting someone.
> .


The Ferrari comment doesn't really work. It's not a matter of buying a Ferrari and only being able to drive 65. It's more like saying "I want a Ferrari, but don't drive except for church on Sunday. Take the big engine out of it and put in the 4 cylinder from a Hyundai" So, people who love sports cars will say "Just buy a Hyundai then!" 
The same with the GSD. Some people want a dog that looks like a GSD, but doesn't act like one and doesn't need exercise like one and can get by with the bare minimum of training. They don't want a GSD; they just want a dog in a GSD costume.


----------



## codmaster

Dainerra said:


> The Ferrari comment doesn't really work. It's not a matter of buying a Ferrari and only being able to drive 65. It's more like saying "I want a Ferrari, but don't drive except for church on Sunday. Take the big engine out of it and put in the 4 cylinder from a Hyundai" So, people who love sports cars will say "Just buy a Hyundai then!"
> The same with the GSD. Some people want a dog that looks like a GSD, but *doesn't act like one* and doesn't need exercise like one and can get by with the bare minimum of training. They don't want a GSD; they just want a dog in a GSD costume.


 
"Act like one" THAT is the BIG question!

What does this mean? I think we all want a GSD that "acts like one"; but very hard to accurately describe this! And we would never all agree anyway.

For a little tiny example - what should an adult GSD do if a 5yo child comes running and yelling in a child high pitched voice and even waving a little toy at you and your dog while you and him/her are sitting in the park one day?

I think the dog should recognize no threat and lick the little guy/girl a couple times. (Which is what most of mine would have done).

OTOH, if it is three 18 yo folks that do it, i would expect a very different reaction - barking at the end of the leash to put a stop to their advance when they got very close, UNTIL I said it was ok. Then he should let them approach w/o any aggression but certainly could keep an eye on them for a while.

BUT that is MY view - I am sure that many would have a different view of what their dog should "act like".

What about it, folks?


----------



## cliffson1

Mine would be as safe as Codmaster's with the 5 year old charging, and would protect me against the 18 year olds, if I felt threatened. Hence, the reason they are tested in obedience/tracking/ and protection to see if they are breedworthy. And if the five year old got lost, give me a piece of her/him clothes, and he would find her/him for you. The expectations for how a German Shepherd should act was established 80 years ago. I just try to maintain them. It doesn't require Sch to maintain the qualities that a German Shepherd should have, nor is it left to private interpretation. It requires knowledgable breeders, with commitment and integrity to preserve all the qualities of the breed.


----------



## Mrs.K

cliffson1 said:


> Mine would be as safe as Codmaster's with the 5 year old charging, and would protect me against the 18 year olds, if I felt threatened. Hence, the reason they are tested in obedience/tracking/ and protection to see if they are breedworthy. And if the five year old got lost, give me a piece of her/him clothes, and he would find her/him for you. The expectations for how a German Shepherd should act was established 80 years ago. I just try to maintain them. It doesn't require Sch to maintain the qualities that a German Shepherd should have, nor is it left to private interpretation. It requires knowledgable breeders, with commitment and integrity to preserve all the qualities of the breed.


Yet you said that you don't necessarily need a titled dog to determine whether or not he's breed worthy. Isn't that private interpretation since you are the one determining whether or not you find him to be breedworthy? 

Not trying to argue since we like the same type of dogs.


----------



## Samba

When I find people really knowledgable about the dogs, they tend to agree is their assessments of them. Unfortunately, I don't run into very many with great knowledge. 

But, many with lesser understanding are breeding and making claims as to quality of the dogs. I find they often don't "agree" with or understand what the others know. They tend to,stick with people who validate their thinking too.


----------



## Andaka

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## cliffson1

Mrs K, from a pure logic point of view you are right. But I have always felt that good breeding comes from knowledge, commitment, and integrity. The knowledge to know the lines, dog, faults, and priorites of the breed to maintain its strength. The commitment to work and attend working/conformation venues to be able to understand and recognize strength,structure and working ability when you see it. And the integrity to not substitute what YOU LIKE for what should be, in breeding German Shepherds.
I know many people who own titled dogs that don't have these three, and I know many people with untitled dogs who have these three in spades. I remember when America had many good breeders that was producing great dogs before the Lance craze started. I am not against the system in America any more than I am for the SV in Germany. Personally, I think the Czech breeders as a whole have the best commitment to the breed these days along with the Scandinavian countries. 
I just want German Shepherds to be bred so that the content of their character, is more important than the color of their coats!!!!lol


----------



## Mrs.K

cliffson1 said:


> Mrs K, from a pure logic point of view you are right. But I have always felt that good breeding comes from knowledge, commitment, and integrity. The knowledge to know the lines, dog, faults, and priorites of the breed to maintain its strength. The commitment to work and attend working/conformation venues to be able to understand and recognize strength,structure and working ability when you see it. And the integrity to not substitute what YOU LIKE for what should be, in breeding German Shepherds.
> I know many people who own titled dogs that don't have these three, and I know many people with untitled dogs who have these three in spades. I remember when America had many good breeders that was producing great dogs before the Lance craze started. I am not against the system in America any more than I am for the SV in Germany. Personally, I think the Czech breeders as a whole have the best commitment to the breed these days along with the Scandinavian countries.
> I just want German Shepherds to be bred so that the content of their character, is more important than the color of their coats!!!!lol


No worries, I absolutely agree with you. 

With the czech dogs... isn't Grim popping up more and more and could be the Fero of the czech lines?


----------



## RubyTuesday

> My question is what the heck is a "Schutzhund" dog.


IMO, extreme sporting dogs that excel at SchH competitions & little else are 'Schutzhund dogs'. However attractive they are to some enthusiasts they lack the requisite overall balance a GSD should have.


----------



## cliffson1

You are right on point Mrs K.....about 10 years ago I sat on a bleacher, I had just imported my first all Czech dog, and i was talking to a very prominent breeder in the Czech republic. This was at the 2001 or 2003 nationals in Gadson, Ala. We started talking about Czech lines, and he said to me Cleef, we have started to bottleneck the lines in Czech Republic on a few great dogs. This is not good, and I will start breeding out to strong DDR/European dogs to bring in much needed new blood. I will not sacrifice the work quality, but I must lay foundation for future. Of course he said a lot more, and he also indicated that many of his country's breeders don't want to mix with West blood, but that it was for the betterment of the breed and not what they should want personally. I see time has made him prophetic, and I was able to glean a lot of information that day on Czech dogs, but my point is that Grim along with two or three others were the dogs that he was talking about. Grim is a dog who was a tremendous dog himself and tremendous producer, but it wasn't Grim or Fero, or Lance, or Canto or Palme, or Troll that is bad....its what people do with these dogs and their offspring that turns something good into bad.


----------



## Liesje

I call my dog a "Schutzhund dog" when it's the main thing we do. It doesn't refer to their lines or breeding or what they are good at or bad at. It just means when I have disposable income I spend it on Schutzhund *first* (club fees, travel, gas, entry fees, gear) and then do other stuff like agility, flyball, herding, yadda yadda.


----------



## martemchik

I think the scary thing about breeding just the dogs with SchH titles for the general public is that you're going to have a much higher rate of failure. Both of you described what you want in a dog, but that doesn't just take a good breeding, it takes training and socilization and a lot of work to get your dog to understand the difference in those situations. Good genes help but they aren't the whole equation. You'll end up with people having dogs they can't handle and then who knows what will happen to those dogs. I've already witnissed this in my apartment complex, with two male GSDs that should have SchH homes but have pet homes.

And about the Ferrari, it has nothing to do with the engine. It has everything to do with the name and the prestige of owning one. When you own a well behaved shepherd all you hear is wow and ahh...when you own a lab, you get nothing!


----------



## Liesje

martemchik said:


> I think the scary thing about breeding just the dogs with SchH titles for the general public is that you're going to have a much higher rate of failure. Both of you described what you want in a dog, but that doesn't just take a good breeding, it takes training and socilization and a lot of work to get your dog to understand the difference in those situations. Good genes help but they aren't the whole equation. You'll end up with people having dogs they can't handle and then who knows what will happen to those dogs. I've already witnissed this in my apartment complex, with two male GSDs that should have SchH homes but have pet homes.



So instead we water down the breed to accommodate novice handlers?


----------



## onyx'girl

What is a SchH home? What is a pet home? My dog has an off switch. He has balanced drives. He loves to work, but can settle fine. I'd rather buy a pup from a breeder who is breeding dogs with SchH titles(that they've trained/titled themselves) than one that doesn't.

A dog that excels in SchH should be balanced and of good temperament, easily fitting into an active pet home. The dog that isn't cut out for it, may be too reactive/anxious or nervy. 
A SchH dog shouldn't have to live in a kennel to be good at the sport, and living in an apartment shouldn't deter one from excelling either.


----------



## VonKromeHaus

I think that sometimes people that don't truly know about Schutzhund, think that a lot of dogs in pet homes should be in schutzhund homes, when the reality is they are where they are supposed to be. I also find that a lot of people mistake high ENERGY for drive and think that because the dog is high ENERGY that it would excel at this sport or that sport...when in reality the dog just needs a more active owner that does something with it! JMO

I am sick of seeing breeds watered down for novices and people complaining about their GSD having Guarding behaviors or herding behaviors ETC.! Seriously people read the breed standards and do research before settling on a breed!


----------



## Mrs.K

VonKromeHaus said:


> I think that sometimes people that don't truly know about Schutzhund, think that a lot of dogs in pet homes should be in schutzhund homes, when the reality is they are where they are supposed to be*. I also find that a lot of people mistake high ENERGY for drive and think that because the dog is high ENERGY that it would excel at this sport or that sport...when in reality the dog just needs a more active owner that does something with it! JMO
> *
> *I am sick of seeing breeds watered down for novices and people complaining about their GSD having Guarding behaviors or herding behaviors ETC.! *Seriously people read the breed standards and do research before settling on a breed!


Didn't you know? 

The GSD is bred to be Human Aggressive, cross-bred, line-bred and in-bred to wolves SINCE WWI and therefor Wolf-Dogs since they are police dogs. And if a police dog bites a civilian it gets re-trained, if it bites his handler the dog will be shot. 

The GSD kills more kids than any other breed, especially police dogs but the police pays off all the victims and sweeps the attacks and fatalities under the rug. 

I am NOT kidding. That was said by some pit-bull people a couple of days ago. This is what some people believe about GSD's...


----------



## VonKromeHaus

onyx'girl said:


> What is a SchH home? What is a pet home? My dog has an off switch. He has balanced drives. He loves to work, but can settle fine. I'd rather buy a pup from a breeder who is breeding dogs with SchH titles(that they've trained/titled themselves) than one that doesn't.
> 
> A dog that excels in SchH should be balanced and of good temperament, easily fitting into an active pet home. The dog that isn't cut out for it, may be too reactive/anxious or nervy.
> A SchH dog shouldn't have to live in a kennel to be good at the sport, and living in an apartment shouldn't deter one from excelling either.


My dog doesn't have an off switch and doesn't settle unless in put in a down/sit etc. 

He has a great temperament and is overly friendly, very stable dog who does therapy visits at a nursing home. He is not anxious, nervy or reactive. He does live in my house and does ok. He could live in an apartment and be ok as long as I was devoted to exercising and training him as I am now. 

My dog is an extreme version and he isn't balanced in drives as he has NO off switch. He would destroy an active pet owner unless they were truly devoted to their dogs. He is not a dog for everyone. His litter was bred with an emphasis on patrol work and not sport work. As I have been told by many, he should be a working k9 in some venue instead of being "wasted" as a sport dog. But he was placed in a sport home. He is an awesome dog...but a lot of dog. 

I strongly disagree that every Schutzhund dog should fit in an active pet home ok. That is unrealistic to me. A truly great Schutzhund dog, a high scoring national level dog is typically not going to be found lounging around someones home.


----------



## VonKromeHaus

Mrs.K said:


> Didn't you know?
> 
> The GSD is bred to be Human Aggressive, cross-bred, line-bred and in-bred to wolves SINCE WWI and therefor Wolf-Dogs since they are police dogs. And if a police dog bites a civilian it gets re-trained, if it bites his handler the dog will be shot.
> 
> The GSD kills more kids than any other breed, especially police dogs but the police pays off all the victims and sweeps the attacks and fatalities under the rug.
> 
> I am NOT kidding. That was said by some pit-bull people a couple of days ago. This is what some people believe about GSD's...


As a pit bull owner I am embarassed. But that happens to different breeds all the time. The misconceptions are so heinous and idiotic that most the time I just stay away from them. 

People are stupid.


----------



## Mrs.K

> I strongly disagree that every Schutzhund dog should fit in an active pet home ok. That is unrealistic to me. A truly great Schutzhund dog, a high scoring national level dog is typically not going to be found lounging around someones home.


That I disagree with.


----------



## VonKromeHaus

What do you disagree about it? Why?


----------



## ponyfarm

Liesje said:


> So instead we water down the breed to accommodate novice handlers?


I know ScHH titled dogs that are sweet, kind, great on/off switches, basically ambassdors of the breed. Many of the offspring go on to active companion homes. Some do Schh. To me, they are not "watered down". I think they are the more all-around dog.

I know several dogs out of ScHH titled dogs that are so intense, so wired, that the experienced owners feel the dog is just too serious.

You can certainly go shopping for what you want. It does take some time, for sure. In my opinion, the breeders really need to match up the high drive ones to the ScHH connisseours!

As an afterthought, no matter how hard the breeders try to place the dogs, etc. Many dogs of all breeds end up in rescues or worse. Not just GSDs.


----------



## Mrs.K

VonKromeHaus said:


> What do you disagree about it? Why?


That you can't find a highly scoring, national competing Schutzhund dog lounging around on the couch.


----------



## onyx'girl

VonKromeHaus said:


> My dog doesn't have an off switch and doesn't settle unless in put in a down/sit etc.
> 
> He has a great temperament and is overly friendly, very stable dog who does therapy visits at a nursing home. He is not anxious, nervy or reactive. He does live in my house and does ok. He could live in an apartment and be ok as long as I was devoted to exercising and training him as I am now.
> 
> My dog is an extreme version and he isn't balanced in drives as he has NO off switch. He would destroy an active pet owner unless they were truly devoted to their dogs. He is not a dog for everyone. His litter was bred with an emphasis on patrol work and not sport work. As I have been told by many, he should be a working k9 in some venue instead of being "wasted" as a sport dog. But he was placed in a sport home. He is an awesome dog...but a lot of dog.
> 
> I strongly disagree that every Schutzhund dog should fit in an active pet home ok. That is unrealistic to me.* A truly great Schutzhund dog, a high scoring national level dog is typically not going to be found lounging around someones home.*


I don't agree with your last sentence. How do you know this?

The breeder you got your dog from sells to the pet market people? I doubt it. Of course there are exceptions and I would hope breeders would discriminate on who they are selling to. But sadly it doesn't always happen.


----------



## martemchik

VonKromeHaus said:


> I strongly disagree that every Schutzhund dog should fit in an active pet home ok. That is unrealistic to me. A truly great Schutzhund dog, a high scoring national level dog is typically not going to be found lounging around someones home.


I might be reading this wrong, so correct me if I am, but you're hoping that a high scoring national level dog is not going to be found lounging, you don't know that for sure. A dog can fit into an active home, but not all homes are active. Some people look like they would be great owners to breeders but then they have a kid, or something else happens and that dog gets put out into the back yard and isn't trained at all. Your hope is that a breeder doesn't give a dog like that to an undeserving home, but I've seen it happen. I've even seen show lines be too much for people to handle and then the dogs get dumped on someone else. But lets face it, some of the bigger SchH breeders, that really do need to sell pups to support their cause will place dogs in not perfectly fit homes, and there aren't enough SchH homes for all those pups anyways.

So my definition of a SchH home is one in which the family participates in SchH. Doesn't have to be competitive, but it is part of the training on a weekly basis. A pet home, is just that, a dog that gets obedience training for the first year (hopefully) and then enjoys its life with the family.

I'm on Mrs. K's side here, as much as I believe in the whole SchH thing, we have clearly had plenty of threads about why SchH is no longer the best test for the temperment of the dog. So as great as those dogs are, why can't a UDX or any other high AKC titled dog be considered a great breeding prospect?


----------



## VonKromeHaus

I said typically you won't find that. There are always exceptions. The National level dogs I know, are kennel dogs. That is what I have went by from talking with their owners. 

No, the breeder I got my dog from doesn't typically sell to the pet market people but she has when she has a pet quality dog. They pop up in almost every litter at least 1 being pet quality. She definetely discriminates on where her dogs go as she ends up raising quite a few of them and then selling them to some service programs.


----------



## Mrs.K

VonKromeHaus said:


> I said typically you won't find that. There are always exceptions. The National level dogs I know, are kennel dogs. That is what I have went by from talking with their owners.
> 
> No, the breeder I got my dog from doesn't typically sell to the pet market people but she has when she has a pet quality dog. They pop up in almost every litter at least 1 being pet quality. She definetely discriminates on where her dogs go as she ends up raising quite a few of them and then selling them to some service programs.


Where I am from it's not an exception. 

And for the sheer amount of dogs produced in Germany you will find that most breeders sell the majority of their dogs to pet homes...and new breeders pop up on almost a daily basis producing more and more and more dogs... where do you think are they going?


----------



## Liesje

I guess if someone's idea of a "Schutzhund dog" is a high strung prey dog with no threshold and a neurotic level of drive and energy, then yeah that dog's probably not going to do very well in ANY home other than a kennel.

This sort of gets into Amy's recent thread. For me personally, the things that make my dogs great on the SchH field are the *exact same* things that make them great companions in my home, and the things that give us problems on the SchH field are the *exact same* things that cause problems in the home. I'll share an example. Pan has high prey drive but has a low threshold and has trouble getting overloaded very quickly. On the SchH field this translates to me having to be careful about not letting him get into a nutty state of mind and working that way (even though it does make flashy obedience and really fast biting/hard striking easy). I am trying to help him learn to cap drive, not just get overloaded and out of control. This lower threshold, everything-is-the-best-game-EVER state of mind also translates into him being a overstimulated in some situations at home, so we have to maintain self-control and make sure the dog can go off and on, not just in training but in being my pet that shares my (small) home.


----------



## VonKromeHaus

I am not saying that a UDX, OTCH or other high level AKC OB titles don't make a dog breed worthy because I think they do. 

I am not hoping that the dog isn't lounging around, I feel that they should have house time as I don't like to see kennel dogs per se. I am saying that IME that is not the case. 

My personal definition of a Schutzhund home is where one is concentrated on that sport and wants to COMPETE in it...training at least 2x a week. 

Dogs get placed poorly all the time. It happens even with the tightest requirements. My own dog could have been placed better in a more experienced home....but there was a reason his breeder placed him with me and I understand it now.


----------



## VonKromeHaus

Liesje said:


> *I guess if someone's idea of a "Schutzhund dog" is a high strung prey dog with no threshold and a neurotic level of drive and energy, then yeah that dog's probably not going to do very well in ANY home other than a* *kennel*.


 I just want to make it clear that is NOT my idea of a good Schutzhund dog. I want a more balanced dog in drive and energy. And one with a higher threshold. 



Liesje said:


> This sort of gets into Amy's recent thread. For me personally, the things that make my dogs great on the SchH field are the *exact same* things that make them great companions in my home, and the things that give us problems on the SchH field are the *exact same* things that cause problems in the home. I'll share an example. Pan has high prey drive but has a low threshold and has trouble getting overloaded very quickly. On the SchH field this translates to me having to be careful about not letting him get into a nutty state of mind and working that way (even though it does make flashy obedience and really fast biting/hard striking easy). I am trying to help him learn to cap drive, not just get overloaded and out of control. This lower threshold, everything-is-the-best-game-EVER state of mind also translates into him being a overstimulated in some situations at home, so we have to maintain self-control and make sure the dog can go off and on, not just in training but in being my pet that shares my (small) home.


Pan sounds a lot like Judge in this aspect so maybe I am wording things wrong. I am always working on capping drive with my dog and teaching better self control. Unfortunately for him and me, he was my first dog that I got for Schutzhund and was not a pet first. It has taken us longer to obtain things and for me to grasp some things with him, as I was not as well prepared for him as I thought I was. He was everything I asked for and nothing that I wanted. 

I don't want people leaving with the impression that he is nuts, cause that is not the case at all. He is a very good boy but not for a novice owner...at all.


----------



## martemchik

In regards to Germany, the difference is that SchH training is widely available so a person that had the intent to be a pet home, can easily change his/her mind and become a SchH home. Where as in the United States its a PITA to become a SchH household. I'm in Milwaukee, and my driving commitment would be more time than the actual training if I were to do SchH, sadly I don't have that kind of time in my life.

This is my first dog, and he would've been way too much for me to handle if I didn't fall in love with obedience training and AKC trialing. Vomkromehous, it sounds like you got a dog that was too much for you, but your breeder knew you would rise to the occasion as well and do the things your dog needs from you. But as a first time dog owner, I look at this partially from the standpoint of if I didn't learn to enjoy the training and all of the sudden stopped, or never started in the first place. What would become of my dog?


----------



## onyx'girl

Well, I think if I kenneled Karlo constantly except when training, he wouldn't be as balanced as he is. He knows how to settle and isn't constantly "on". 
From what I see of many dogs who live in kennels or are let in the house very limited, they can't just relax when they are inside. That's probably why they end up back out in the kennel. And maybe that's where they like to be. 
On the flip-side, if Karlo was crated/ kenneled more often he'd probably be a bit more drivey than he is. 

Though his threshold(higher) is genetic, so that wouldn't change regardless.
I allow him out with my other dogs and he is seldom crated, he is a pet first.


----------



## GatorDog

My Schutzhund dog has a very low threshold when it comes to sensitivity, and therefore I have to treat him like he is a god just to build his confidence up and get his head in the right place when I do obedience with him. He is very handler sensitive in that aspect. When it comes to protection, I have to work on bringing him down slightly so that he's not so over the top crazy and can obey the commands given. We train twice a week and will never compete in nationals, buy we'll try our hardest to get the best scores in every trial we enter.

He is only crated in my car during training, no longer at home. And it takes about ten minutes after arriving home for him to fall asleep. If that's not balanced than I don't know what is. However, the second I gave up my responsibilities to him by stopping his Schutzhund training, I can guarantee you that my house would be ripped to shreds among other things. He needs a job, which is what I knew when I decided to go with a GSD as my choice of dog breed.

The GSD as a breed is not good for first time dog owners, period. Wether theyre bred for Schutzhund or not. They are generally high energy working dogs that don't do well "lounging around the house." Those owners that do have a dog capable of doing so got a rare chance at a dog who fall in to that category.


----------



## VonKromeHaus

onyx'girl said:


> Well, I think if I kenneled Karlo constantly except when training, he wouldn't be as balanced as he is. He knows how to settle and isn't constantly "on".
> From what I see of many dogs who live in kennels or are let in the house very limited, they can't just relax when they are inside. That's probably why they end up back out in the kennel. And maybe that's where they like to be.
> On the flip-side, if Karlo was crated/ kenneled more often he'd probably be a bit more drivey than he is.
> 
> Though his threshold(higher) is genetic, so that wouldn't change regardless.
> I allow him out with my other dogs and he is seldom crated, he is a pet first.


I think kenneling and crating can increase drive in some cases....that is the presice reason why my dog is not kenneled or crated a bunch. I don't need more drive from him. He drives me insane sometimes but he is a house dog who has been extremely well socialized! Judge is a working dog first and foremost, that was the reason he was bought but he lives in my house with my other dogs and is treated as a pet. He does tend to have a lower threshold, I am finding I like a higher threshold dog. 

To each their own...but there is something to be said for BALANCE!


----------



## cliffson1

A well bred GS can be a wonderful house dog and also a Sch dog. Before the development of "lines" in the breed, the dog could be a military/police dog and also a seeing-eye dog for the visually impaired. Actually it was the number one dog used in both of these vocations. Pups from the same litter would go to police/military and seeing-eye. That's because the dog was created for service and both of these vocations provide service to man. If a dog can be a seeing-eye dog certainly it can be a great family dog for an active family. There are still breeders like Carmen who breed for and place many many dogs in homes and service on routine basis. The problem is an active dog needs an active family for the dog to be what it is supposed to be....doing something. The problem is people want to take this kind of dog and have it live in a house like a toy breed in terms of behavoir. These people should not have the breed in the first place. Active dog needs active family....this is not rocket science. Sedentary lifestyle needs less active type dog....HELLO!!!
As for the UD or CDX being a requisite for breeding....the reason is that two of the traits this breed needs to be able to do the things(service) it was made to do is to have faultless nerve and courage. Any dog can acquire a CDX or UD, but any dog cannot perform the services this dog was made to perform. So we have to have a mechanism in place whether it is the breeder or testing to ensure that these qualities remain in the breed. Obedience titles won't do it alone....if you are honest you will acknowledge that. Without something, like integrity or testing, then courage and nerve will go down the tubes. Now what's more important....maintaining the breed for service providers and active families that provide good homes, or breed down so the the sedentary or couch potato environment can have a GS and we lose the dog providing service work. 
For TRUE lovers of the breed this isn't close, for the selfish folks who want breeders to change the breed to meet their circumstances which is contrary to maintenance of this breed, I will never capituate to their desires.


----------



## lhczth

cliffson1 said:


> Now what's more important....maintaining the breed for service providers and active families that provide good homes, or breed down so the the sedentary or couch potato environment can have a GS and we lose the dog providing service work.
> 
> For TRUE lovers of the breed this isn't close, for the selfish folks who want breeders to change the breed to meet their circumstances which is contrary to maintenance of this breed, I will never capituate to their desires.


Cliff, we might not agree 100% of the time, but on this :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:.


----------



## carmspack

thanks Cliff ! must have had my ears burning , this is the first time I looked into this topic.

Yes I do breed, one litter per year now , maybe two in an 18 month cycle , majority end up in homes or into service -- same litters -- . 
I would dearly love to have MORE dogs go into schutzhund . All the dogs that have had the opportunity have done very well (nationals) and have been role models, living beautifully in the centre of family home and life , no issues, easy to handle, committed to work , natural drives. But no -- everytime the topic comes up I see words - whether pedigree data base or else where that the my dogs aren't good for schutzhund !!! They are not CRAZY enough . Yeah , hooray . 
Much rather that --- . Everyone should want a rock solid dog with a desire to work , with initiative , with natural instinct, some intelligence , decision making. I have been thinking a lot about the influence of "positive" training, in the way of operant conditioning . To me the dogs are missing something , maybe the element of exchange between handler and dog , that anticipation of what needs to be done and go and do it - talents good for the ever changing dynamics of herding (real not chase and annoy) police - protection , guide - assistance therapy. 
Last Saturday I was asked by a friend with a young pup to go with them , after market, to a class that they had signed up for at a local (Markham) PetsMart . At first I was sceptical because PetsMart outlets closer to my home turf are pretty awful. So I went . This one was good. Real good. It was just a closed off area with people going in and bringing their young pups in to socialize. One person had a sedate more mature golden retriever . Full kudos to everyone for such well behaved NORMAL animals. Only one person was a bit ignorant . I think they were showing off -- ran to the area , opened door and let their dog (golden) fly in . Funny thing it went in bold and was surrounded by all the other dogs like filings to a magnet . Then it was overwhelmed and tail tucked . Okay later on -- the owner was oblivious. The others that entered came with dogs on leash , the other dogs would look and continue to play with the playmates they had already chosen. This entry did not disturb the dynamics.
There was one absolutely stunning coated merle blue collie that I would have taken home -- playing with a beagly dog who was a bit of a brat -- but all good , two willing participants. Yet the owner of the beagly pup would keep interfering , had to go in and correct his beagly , haul it away and the collie would follow trying to play. Each time the beagly was released it was a catch up - where did we leave off -- with more energy. Both dogs loved it. There was a gsd-boxer mix that was impressive . It was good exposure for me.

Normal dogs. 

So I have been talking with a sch h decoy , originally from Germany , then worked in the former DDR , then immersed himself in Czech dogs and culture. He said the same thing about dogs that there are too many crazy dogs that you can not live with , but that is not necessary to have a good working dog -- at all -- .

sorry if ramble off topic -- super tired -

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## carmspack

agree with Cliff -- won't capitulate either -- ever -- market will not dictate , not for colour , shape , nor temperament .
so there
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## wildo

carmspack said:


> I have been thinking a lot about the influence of "positive" training, in the way of operant conditioning . To me the dogs are missing something , maybe the element of exchange between handler and dog , that anticipation of what needs to be done and go and do it - talents good for the ever changing dynamics of herding (real not chase and annoy) police - protection , guide - assistance therapy. http://www.carmspack.com


Can you elaborate on this, Carmen? (Perhaps your doggie socialization story was elaboration- in that case, I didn't get it.) What is the element of exchange between handler and dog that is missing in positive reinforcement training? Surely the exchange you speak of isn't intimidation, fear of pain, or coercion... Why would any animal feel cheated out of that?

Maybe that's a topic for a whole other thread. Feel free to PM me...


----------



## carmspack

will do later - wildo , absolutely not fear or intimidation -- mastery, kind leadership, co operation


----------



## Dainerra

codmaster said:


> "Act like one" THAT is the BIG question!
> 
> What does this mean? I think we all want a GSD that "acts like one"; but very hard to accurately describe this! And we would never all agree anyway.
> 
> For a little tiny example - what should an adult GSD do if a 5yo child comes running and yelling in a child high pitched voice and even waving a little toy at you and your dog while you and him/her are sitting in the park one day?
> 
> I think the dog should recognize no threat and lick the little guy/girl a couple times. (Which is what most of mine would have done).
> 
> OTOH, if it is three 18 yo folks that do it, i would expect a very different reaction - barking at the end of the leash to put a stop to their advance when they got very close, UNTIL I said it was ok. Then he should let them approach w/o any aggression but certainly could keep an eye on them for a while.
> 
> BUT that is MY view - I am sure that many would have a different view of what their dog should "act like".
> 
> What about it, folks?


When I say "act like one" I'm thinking of all the traits that are found in pretty much every GSD. There are people who have told me they want a GSD but:

no shedding
no barking
solicits attention from everyone
doesn't need exercise
doesn't follow you everywhere (my boys are velcro dogs!)
weighs less than 30 lbs because of weight restrictions on their rental house
weighs over 120 lbs because they want a bigger dog

oh, and can I get it in black and white like a border collie?


----------



## codmaster

Liesje said:


> So instead we water down the breed to accommodate novice handlers?


 
What do you mean by "water down"? 

Temperament/protectivness/hardness/DA or HA?

That was my question originally - what is appropriate GSD behavior in different situations? What are our expectations?

In my ScH club, I have had some very interesting discussions about appropriate behavior anf our different expectations in different situations. And we both want a ScH dog!

And we must remember that GSD's are supposed to be able to do a LOT of very different jobs - from a military Sentry dog to a Seeing Eye dog. NOT the same dog, but different individuals in the same breed.

Wouldn't that suggest that there will be a great deal of difference among individuals of the breed? And all could be within the standard as described in the AKC description?????? Couldn't they?


----------



## codmaster

Dainerra said:


> When I say "act like one" I'm thinking of all the traits that are found in pretty much every GSD. There are people who have told me they want a GSD but:
> 
> no shedding
> no barking
> solicits attention from everyone
> doesn't need exercise
> doesn't follow you everywhere (my boys are velcro dogs!)
> weighs less than 30 lbs because of weight restrictions on their rental house
> weighs over 120 lbs because they want a bigger dog
> 
> oh, and can I get it in black and white like a border collie?


*What "traits" are found in pretty much every GSD? Or SHOULD BE?*

The list that you show is of course really stupid expectations of a GSD.


----------



## martemchik

codmaster said:


> And we must remember that GSD's are supposed to be able to do a LOT of very different jobs - from a military Sentry dog to a Seeing Eye dog. NOT the same dog, but different individuals in the same breed.
> 
> Wouldn't that suggest that there will be a great deal of difference among individuals of the breed? And all could be within the standard as described in the AKC description?????? Couldn't they?


Actually, there are people that would argue that every pup out of any litter can do any of those things you listed. It won't look as good as a Mali in schutzhund and it won't be as easy to train as a lab in service, but it can still do those things. And if you follow the standard that's what the breed should be. I just don't think its possible anymore with all the variation in the breed and the fact that the pet market just has different demands. I don't think breeders should breed to the market, but sadly, when economics are involved people do. If as a breeder you have proven that your dogs excel at service work, you can command a higher price per puppy from people looking for a service dog. If as a breeder you have proven that your dogs excel at SchH, you can get a higher price per puppy from people looking to work in SchH.

I guess my opinion is that, if every breed was only bred and sold to people that were going to use it for its original intended use, then we would have very few dogs around. And its not that I don't believe a very good/balanced dog can come out of SchH lines and be a very good family pet. Its that there are too many breeders breeding crazy prey driven dogs, that end up going to pet homes, and also too many breeders breeding dogs that are lazy couch potatoes which end up ruining the breed as a whole.


----------



## Dainerra

codmaster said:


> *What "traits" are found in pretty much every GSD? Or SHOULD BE?*
> 
> The list that you show is of course really stupid expectations of a GSD.


that's kind of my point. People say they want a GSD, but they actually just want a dog that LOOKS like a GSD. Or they want a dog that behaves like a GSD but looks like something else - people who expect their golden or lab to be aloof to strangers is an example of that.

There are tons of people who post here and out in the "real" world who say that they want a GSD. But the things they need or want in a dog aren't traits that a GSD will have. Instead of getting another breed, they find a BYB who breeds for those traits and purchase from there.

ETA: the traits are the things that I mentioned in my post. I mean common things that are going to be found in 99.9999% of dogs. People who don't want their GSD to bark at strangers is another one. And, yes, I do mean that I know a person who gets freaked out because her GSD will bark if someone knocks at the door. She is convinced that it means that he will kill someone who comes in the front door.


----------



## codmaster

cliffson1 said:


> A well bred GS can be a wonderful house dog and also a Sch dog. Before the development of "lines" in the breed, the dog could be a military/police dog and also a seeing-eye dog for the visually impaired. Actually it was the number one dog used in both of these vocations. Pups from the same litter would go to police/military and seeing-eye. That's because the dog was created for service and both of these vocations provide service to man. If a dog can be a seeing-eye dog certainly it can be a great family dog for an active family. There are still breeders like Carmen who breed for and place many many dogs in homes and service on routine basis. The problem is an active dog needs an active family for the dog to be what it is supposed to be....doing something. The problem is people want to take this kind of dog and have it live in a house like a toy breed in terms of behavoir. These people should not have the breed in the first place. Active dog needs active family....this is not rocket science. Sedentary lifestyle needs less active type dog....HELLO!!!
> As for the UD or CDX being a requisite for breeding....the reason is that two of the traits this breed needs to be able to do the things(service) it was made to do is to have faultless nerve and courage. *Any dog can acquire a CDX or UD*, but any dog cannot perform the services this dog was made to perform. So we have to have a mechanism in place whether it is the breeder or testing to ensure that these qualities remain in the breed. Obedience titles won't do it alone....if you are honest you will acknowledge that. Without something, like integrity or testing, then courage and nerve will go down the tubes. Now what's more important....maintaining the breed for service providers and active families that provide good homes, or breed down so the the sedentary or couch potato environment can have a GS and we lose the dog providing service work.
> For TRUE lovers of the breed this isn't close, for the selfish folks who want breeders to change the breed to meet their circumstances which is contrary to maintenance of this breed, I will never capituate to their desires.


 
I agree very much with what you say above, BUT this statment is kind of showing off a little bit of predijuce, don't you think? I know a couple of dogs that i would bet you $1000 that you could not get a UD with them!

BTW, there sem to be a LOT of folks who claim that with the "right" training that any dog can get a ScH as well.

And judging by the only BH test that I saw (admittedly only my first!), then any dog including a couple that were just short of out of control can pass this test also. So please do not denigrate a legitimate hard to obtain obedience title.

Do you really think that to earn a ScH1 that a dog has to have "faultless nerve and courage"? That every ScH titled dog has this?

Personally I really doubt this!


----------



## onyx'girl

Titles can be bought, unfortunately....if they are earned legitimately, then yes, a dog w/ a SchH 1 has faultless nerve and courage....you go to WDA events, correct? Maybe you should look at the AWDF or UScA trials for a bit more balance on your opinion.


> BTW, there sem to be a LOT of folks who claim that with the "right" training that any dog can get a ScH as well.


I don't subscribe to this at all, and I don't know of many that I've ever trained with that does either.


----------



## martemchik

Maybe every dog can get a SchH1 or SchH3, but is there a difference if a dog scores 250,260,255 or if a dog scores 290,295,298. And everyone wants to breed to/have puppies from which one of those? I'm just playing devils advocate, since I know this is the argument many working line people use against show line dogs that have achieved their SchH titles.


----------



## onyx'girl

I don't think all the people who train/participate and title their dogs in the sport are out to do it for breeding purposes. BUT I do see it more in the SL world than the WL....very few WL's are sent off to Germany to 'earn' their titles as compared to SL. Why send a dog off for that unless you are in it for breeding? I train in SchH because I enjoy it, not because I need to title/breed my dog. It is all about the journey for me and I'm sure many others do it for that same reason.


----------



## codmaster

onyx'girl said:


> Titles can be bought, unfortunately....if they are earned legitimately, then yes, a dog w/ a SchH 1 has faultless nerve and courage....you go to WDA events, correct? Maybe you should look at the AWDF or UScA trials for a bit more balance on your opinion.
> 
> I don't subscribe to this at all, and I don't know of many that I've ever trained with that does either.


 
Do you really think that EVERY ScH1 titled dog has *"faultless nerve and courage"? Wouldn't at least one of the many many Sch1 titled dogs be considered a little too sharp and low threshhold? Maybe too "Hyper"? Maybe just one?*

*If that were true, then that would be a great part of the breedworthiness of a GSD.*

*But what does the ScH title itself say about the proper conformation of a GSD?*

*Wouldn't a GSD who is to be considered "Breedworthy" have to possess BOTH mental and physical "properness"? - not just one or the other?*


----------



## onyx'girl

Yes, if the breeder was doing it right. They would be certain the dog is of good conformation. Though don't throw the baby out with the bathwater... 
Codmaster, you are trying to find the perfect dog...perfect breeder, no? There are always exceptions to everything. There is no perfect anything. 
I think a responsible breeder does strive for* both* mental and physical properness. There are many that do this...many that don't. If only buyers were more knowledgeable to support the ones that do so.


----------



## codmaster

onyx'girl said:


> Yes, if the breeder was doing it right. They would be certain the dog is of good conformation. Though don't throw the baby out with the bathwater...
> Codmaster, you are trying to find the perfect dog...perfect breeder, no? There are always exceptions to everything. There is no perfect anything.
> *I think a responsible breeder does strive for both mental and physical properness*. There are many that do this...many that don't. If only buyers were more knowledgeable to support the ones that do so.


Of course *THEY* do!

Actually what I am trying to say (maybe not very well!) is that a "breedable" dog should have BOTH proper temp. and the proper conformation. Too many folks on both sides of the aisle tend to see only one side (not everyone by any means, but far too many).

Too many sport dog enthuisastics say "conformation doesn't count only important thing is can he/she work"; while too many breed ring fanciers only consider the dog's physical characteristics and look and ignore the dog's mental makeup! BOTH BOTH BOTH! Equally important.

Now knowing that breeding is still a matter of judgement and of balancing what the sire and dam (anfd their ancestors!) bring to the mating. The old phenotype versus genotype debate!


----------



## crackem

I think the conformation standard should be used as it is written. I think any dog that falls within the range of the accepted standard should be considered correct. Then all the judging should be placed on temperament, health and ability. That's it. 

I love working dogs, I like show dogs that can work, but they don't look near as "sturdy" to me, but that's me. If they're within the standard physically, everything else should be placed on mental aspects and health. 

I don't see too many working line GSD's that don't look like GSD's.


----------



## codmaster

crackem said:


> I think the conformation standard should be used as it is written. I think *any dog that falls within the range of the accepted standard should be considered correct*.
> 
> What in the world do you mean by the above statment? Of course the standard should be used as it is written. How else could it be used?
> 
> Then all the judging should be placed on temperament, health and ability. That's it. *????????????????? Should the Sch judges consider health? How about the conformation judges in the ring? I am confused by what you are trying to say here?*
> 
> I love working dogs, I like show dogs that can work, but they don't look near as "sturdy" to me, but that's me. If they're within the standard physically, everything else should be placed on mental aspects and health.
> 
> I don't see too many working line GSD's that don't look like GSD's.


*Would you happen to be a GSD judge? I do hope not.*

*BTW, how would YOU judge the extreme "Roached" back German dogs? Are they within the "written standard" and should be judged as correct? Is that what you mean as "Sturdy"?*

Anyway, everyone has their own opinions, and that is good in the USA.


----------



## cliffson1

@ Codmaster....when quoting my post you say you know a lot of people that say that with the right training anyone can get a sch degree. 
Who are those people? Do you know how many people make statements about hings they have little or no knowledge of. If people don't have the wherewithall to consider the quality of the source, before believing something....what's that say about them????? I mean if the people who have seen Sch hundreds of times are not listened to on issues dealing with Sch; and quotes are thrown out from people who have little or no actual knowledge of the sport......I can't understand how a reasonable person can't differentiate between the two sources and figure out that the source that is involved probably has a greater credibility than the person speaking from afar. My mother always told me to consider the quality of the source of information. That's why I say that integrity has to be part of a breeders mantra. We all know there are exceptions to any rule,(so NO; all Sch dogs don't have courage and are fearless), but when comparing Sch titled dogs with non titled dogs, which do you think has this valuable trait in the vast majority of the time. Again its about integrity....not trying to find an exception to justify faulty dogs or thinking.
And I realize that you agreed with my premise, I just couldn't understand what the point of stressing that some Sch dogs do not have courage, when they tend to have much more courage than non trained dogs as a general rule....Baffling!


----------



## Emoore

cliffson1 said:


> you say you know a lot of people that say that with the right training anyone can get a sch degree.
> Who are those people?


That guy Packen for one.


----------



## Mrs.K

> BTW, there sem to be a LOT of folks who claim that with the "right" training that any dog can get a ScH as well.


Cliffson... remember the Golden Retriever that got his SchH1? If I'm not mistaken he's got the 2 now and is going for the three. 

So yah, pretty much any dog can get it with the right training and the right judge.


----------



## selzer

I challenge anyone to do the protection phase with an English Setter. If they did, it would be really disgusting. Kind of like putting a tutu on a tiger -- just not right.


----------



## onyx'girl

I challenge anyone to get a 1 on Onyx....


----------



## Whiteshepherds

Mrs.K said:


> So yah, pretty much any dog can get it with the right training and the right judge.


Can they bluff their way all the way to the SCH3? (not the GR, any dog) It seems like that would be hard to do.


----------



## Mrs.K

Whiteshepherds said:


> Can they bluff their way all the way to the SCH3? (not the GR, any dog) It seems like that would be hard to do.


You can cover up a lot of things with the right training. That is the point why so many people are pissed. It became a sport and is no longer there to weed out the weakest links in the breed. And I'm not talking about all positive training... there are a lot of methods out there and some are not nice to be watched.


----------



## carmspack

conformation - very important to a working dog . Conformation seen in motion. Not just reach . As an individual a dog that is BALANCED is better than a dog featuring a better front or a better rear , but not balanced. It takes longer to correct the front than it does to change lengths and angles in the rear . 
Over the recent past we have had many threads addressing wobbly hocks, crabbing , short upper arms etc.
It comes down to this "bewegungsablauf" (be way gungs ab lauf) which is co-ordination and gait timing . 
When you have good conformation the dog can run like a well oiled rhythmic machine . There is harmony. German show lines these days run like rappers . The movement should be dynamic - take you somewhere , not just superfluous movement that keeps you pretty much in place .
Character - SELF assured , not impressed by noise or activity , not reactive . Calm yet alert . This is a dog with quiet power . It was not developed as a man-aggressive dog , a thread that I missed but that was brought to my attention. Not man aggressive as , say, a Dobermann , was intended as a dog for intimidation (tax collector) . Actually one of the best Dobes I know of is a physically strong , mentally strong Swedish import (hand ears and long tailed) .
The GSD , Strong in fight absolutely . An appearance of cool , calm .
In this self assured - it comes from birth . I take my dogs to hundreds of situations not to rehearse them or to condition them, to a working dog that is useless because they will revert to what they truly ARE under stress, but to observe them , so that I can make decisions on their future and the future of the breeding pair . 
So many times on this forum comes the advice to socialize them to death very early on. A dog is stable or it is not. I have had the experience where I have spent so much time preparing a special project dog, that the one I kept for myself got very basic , but good care , "on the farm" . Then one day, yikes , I realize how much time has passed, pack the dog into the van , drive an hour up to a small town on the lake and plunk the dog into traffic , to the boat house , to the lake with water skis and kids watching the outdoor theatre or ball game - to fire works -- and no problem . That sort of replicates the shepherds dogs experience . Out with the shepherd , the sheep, the lonely roads, no big effort , the dog works under distraction , doesn't poop himself the first time a vehicle passes or a bicyclist goes by . 
Responsive to handler , not shirking or shrinking when voice level raises or gets super animated . 

Conflict does not come from the handler.

Self assured dogs. Self confident . Next time you go to a schutzhund trial see how many dogs you can spot that own that .
See how many dogs command respect , but do not instill fear .

later

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## carmspack

this one is for Cliff 

" In other countries it happened that they changed the program to fit the type of dogs being bred instead of breeding dogs who are able to do the program. Everybody knows where this leads to: “destruction of the dogs working abilities. When that happens they have a problem which is even bigger than what they started with. Now they have only dogs with a lack of working abilities.: 

this came out in discussing a young female of mine, (forum member), who has made a very favourable impression with the "Ring" crowd .

Carmen
http://www.carmspack.com


----------



## cliffson1

Folks I am one of the main people on this forum that has lamented the sportiness of Sch and the fact that Sch has lost its way in terms of original purpose. Way too many dogs pass the test today that are not breedworthy in my opinion......having said that when dealing with practical terms about the state of the breed today; I have seen hundreds, more like thousands of GS over the past 25 years alone. The type of dogs that possesses the very nice description that Carmen gave us, were far far far more frequently seen, in dogs who were Sch titled or who were out of sch titled lineage. Its not even close. Carmens description is of a dog that can be trained to do service work.....either passive type or fighter type....as the dog should be. I often see this type of dog in Sch circles, though I believe it is decreasing as I see more and more dogs with energy and drives that are poorly capped. I once in a while see this in lines from lineage of untitled parents, but usually they are lacking the real confidence and courage to stand strong in adverse situations and training....which should not be. 
So folks there will never be perfect, but we know what ought to be and we know where we see it most often (and that can be titled breeders or untitled breeders), but bottom line is a breeder has reponsibility to produce what ought to be and not what they like or what they are asked to produce by the consumers that don't want all aspects of the breed. 
The truth is there are many breeders today who are ill equipped physically, mentally, emotionally and last but not least knowledgabally(haha), to breed German Shepherds. They are breeding for trials, shows, breeding what they can handle, breeding what they like, breeding out of a lack of knowledge of working traits, and it reflects in the way the breed is today in general as opposed to the past. 
How can you allow a person to Judge a working dog when they have never worked a dog in the fields they were created for???????Never understood that, but saw it a lot in a past period of my life! Recipe for losing all working traits....trust me!!


----------



## Mrs.K

Yes Cliff. Again, I agree. Been saying the same thing, pretty much myself and I rather go back to Europe to get the kind of dog I want because I know where to get it and that I can trust the people I get the dog from, even though I might not get a guarantee or whatnot. 



> Carmens description is of a dog that can be trained to do service work.....either passive type or fighter type....as the dog should be. I often see this type of dog in Sch circles, though I believe it is decreasing as I see more and more dogs with energy and drives that are poorly capped. I once in a while see this in lines from lineage of untitled parents, but usually they are lacking the real confidence and courage to stand strong in adverse situations and training....which should not be.


I like the type of dog you described and honestly, I'd never settle for less. If that is what people demand, they will be produced and most importantly they got to be able to settle in the house as well. I wouldn't want a super-crazy dog that never settles in the first place. 

Might sound crazy but I want a Jack of all Trades. I know a lot of people say "Master of none" but that isn't necessarily true. They are good dogs. They might not be perfect but they are darn good dogs and I rather have my Jack of all Trades that can do anything I want him to do instead of a dog that can only specialize in one thing and one thing only and that's it. 

If I want to do SAR, Agility, SchH, Nosework, Herding, French Ring, Mondioring, Bruck, Dog Dancing, or whatever else is out there, the GSD should be able to do it all and fit into every single role.


----------



## cliffson1

Word!!!


----------



## martemchik

Mrs.K said:


> If I want to do SAR, Agility, SchH, Nosework, Herding, French Ring, Mondioring, Bruck, Dog Dancing, or whatever else is out there, the GSD should be able to do it all and fit into every single role.


This is exactly what the breed should be. But it won't be because not only are breeders breeding dogs that are easier to handle, they are breeding dogs that are harder to handle due to competition. I know that cliff has stated plenty of times he doesn't believe those dogs are correct either but I believe it still gets lost because those dogs can still work (and exceptionally well). Where as the milder tempered "show dogs" can't work and that is made into a bigger issue. I know that most people train in SchH for fun, for a little competition, but there are a few, and those are the drivers of the industry that compete on an extremely high level and they need those super prey driven dogs that can only do one thing.

In regards to "breeding to the standard", again, read the standard and let me know what you think it means. Then let someone else do the same. If 100 people read it, they will all have a different idea of what it means. I hope that this example makes sense, and that neither person takes offense to it. Carmen and Robin, breed beautiful dogs, that are wonderful workers, they are both within the standard and both can work. I would be lucky to have a puppy from either one of them. But look at what they produce, and the dogs aren't exactly twins...so what is the standard?


----------



## Falkosmom

German Shepherd Herding An Interview With Schäfermeister Manfred Heyne

Food for thought.


----------



## Mrs.K

Falkosmom said:


> German Shepherd Herding An Interview With Schäfermeister Manfred Heyne
> 
> Food for thought.


I was actually thinking that if I ever go to breed my females that maybe it's not the worst thing to cross in those old HGH lines.


----------



## RocketDog

That is a very interesting article. There is another link at the top of that page that goes into Haynes' story further. 

Good reading.


----------



## selzer

Maybe we should all buy sheep. 

The breed has been in existence for little over 100 years. Not really all that long. It took quite a while for Max to encourage the use of the dog's in police work. They were used in WWI, and England used all sorts of dogs as service dogs, I think in WWI and WWII, though it may have only been WWII. 

When dogs are working in the fields all day doing a job that they have to think to accomplish, and are out of dogs that work all day, they are probably a lot easier to train for other types of service. Schutzhund is a sport. I have a schutzhund dog and she is no more active, no more hard, no more naturally obedient than my other dogs. The difference is that she has different letters after her name. Temperament is very similar. She is NOT a weapon, she is totally stable around people and can be handled by anyone, is not freaky at the vet. This is odd because a lot of working police dogs must be handled by their own handlers at the vet and at the groomers. But whatever.

The point is, just because people get out there on the field with their dog on week ends to train and trial in schutzhund, does not mean that they are using the dog's brain power like a dog that is a working dog. And perhaps, the dog's working ability is going to be reduced because we are not all raising sheep. Perhaps generation after generation of dogs that are not pressed to use their full line of tools, will lose some of their intelligence, hardness and natural instincts. 

If I had bottomless pockets, I would be raising sheep, and working dogs on sheep. But that is simply not going to fly with the vast majority of GSD breeders. There is a reason that herding dogs in general hold the market on canine intelligence. I know, I know they say the poodle is smarter, but I have never encountered a poodle that could hold a candle to a good GSD. I think the test was rigged in favor of poodles. 

I think that we as owners and breeders need to find outlets for our dogs' intelligence. Walking, hiking, being in with the family, playing fetch, and a class in agility once a week is not enough to sharpen and exercise their wits. We talk talk talk about drives, and about bite-work and about obedience, and even about keeping their bodies healthy and muscular, movement and endurance, but we have no intelligence test for breeding. You do not need a smart dog to get an obedience title, to perform in the ring for a few minutes. In fact, a dumb dog is sometimes better at that. They learn the command and do it without thinking, every time, yippee got a treat whoo hoo. Abrupt body language or a simple command, the dog knows exactly what SIT or FINISH means and does it. No brains. Tracking takes instinct and drive. Bite-work obedience, drive, courage. But how do we test the dog's ability to THINK. Schutzhund does not do it. Being a leader dog for the blind would. Police dog training, or Search dog training might. Herding does. 

So maybe only people working their dogs on sheep (not three or four tame shetlands), but a good sized flock should be breeding dogs. The resultant puppies will be high energy, strong instincts, strong drives, and more intelligence than most people could handle, but it would not be watering down the breed.


----------



## codmaster

One question (again demonstrating my own ignorance) - are HGH or other herding GSD's also supposed to protect the sheep - say against wolves and the like? How about being protective of the sheep against strangers coming into the herd?


And likewise, would a ScH titled/trained dog be expected to react to a stranger threatening his/her handler WITHOUT any command from said handler or are they expected to wait for a command - i.e. "Watch Him"/ "Get Him"? Would it be reasonable to expect a ScH trained dog to react quicker/better/stronger than a "normal" untrained but sound GSD?


----------



## cliffson1

A lot of Sch trained dogs would not react to their handler being attacked, just as a lot of non sch trained would not react. With the scenario about the handler being attacked, think about it, its really has nothing to do with training. It has everything to do with nerve, courage and protectiveness, in which a dog doesn't need training to have. If they have those traits they would react accordingly to the attack, and like Selzer says thinking to show the amount of force necessary to control the situation. Aha....that thinking part is very important....but without the nerve, courage, and protectiveness....then the thinking on the dog's part does not translate into action.


----------



## Liesje

For me Schutzhund training does not make my dog a protection dog. The training reveals certain things to me as we advance in the training (same goes for the other stuff we do, namely the SDA stuff which includes many other facets of protection training). Right now I'm training two dogs. My best Schutzhund dog won't protect me. Now part of that is maturity but I doubt he's even going to mature with the level of protectiveness that my other dog has, and my other dog is not as good points-wise at SchH but I know he's got my back! And that is not *because* I trained him but because that's just what he is. Th training gives us an opportunity to have some outlet for his drives and instincts on a more regular basis, it helps me learn more about my dogs, and it helps us cap their drives and implement control and obedience.


----------



## codmaster

cliffson1 said:


> A lot of Sch trained dogs would not react to their handler being attacked, just as a lot of non sch trained would not react. With the scenario about the handler being attacked, think about it, its really has nothing to do with training. *It has everything to do with nerve, courage and protectiveness,* in which a dog doesn't need training to have. If they have those traits they would react accordingly to the attack, and like Selzer says thinking to show the amount of force necessary to control the situation. Aha....that thinking part is very important....but without the nerve, courage, and protectiveness....then the thinking on the dog's part does not translate into action.


But isn't the very idea of ScH to be a test of nerve and courage - the idea of a "breed worthiness" test? So if that is the case, shouldn't we expect a dog who has won the title of ScH to possess these very valuable qualities? if we can not expect that, then it seems like the title is worthless as far as a test of breedworthiness (I don't think so, but it is a logical conclusion, I think, from what you say).


----------



## codmaster

Liesje said:


> For me Schutzhund training does not make my dog a protection dog. The training reveals certain things to me as we advance in the training (same goes for the other stuff we do, namely the SDA stuff which includes many other facets of protection training). Right now I'm training two dogs. *My best Schutzhund dog won't protect me*. Now part of that is maturity but I doubt he's even going to mature with the level of protectiveness that my other dog has, and my other dog is not as good points-wise at SchH but I know he's got my back! And that is not *because* I trained him but because that's just what he is. Th training gives us an opportunity to have some outlet for his drives and instincts on a more regular basis, it helps me learn more about my dogs, and it helps us cap their drives and implement *control and obedience*.


Doesn't ScH translate to "protection dog"? Maybe that is why the SV dropped the term in place of IPO?

If someone's GSD will not protect them from a real threat, should that GSD ever be bred to produce more GSD's who are not according to the standard?

(Please note that I am not saying that you would ever breed your dog - just a very general observation!)

I am of course assuming that the standard does say that a GSD IS protective of their "pack" even at the cost of their own life.


----------



## selzer

I don't think any test can deem a dog breedworthy. It is not the piece of paper, but the journey. If it takes you four years and 17 tries to finish the title, is your dog breedworthy? If your dog fails a section the first time is the dog not breedworthy? I think you, as a buyer, really have to put together a report card on the dog and titles and what kind of titles would definitely be a part of that, but we are always talking about the whole dog. There is no perfect dog. Some lack here and some lack there, but when you add up the strengths and the weaknesses, you can make a determination on the whole animal.


----------



## Liesje

Schutzhund is not the only thing I do with my dogs and not the only form of protection either. A strong GSD with good instincts should be perfectly capable of protecting itself and it's people, and doing well in Schutzhund or whatever you want to call it (I personally couldn't care less).

I'm not a breeder but wouldn't condone making breeding decisions based on one single trait alone and not looking at the full picture.


----------



## selzer

codmaster said:


> Doesn't ScH translate to "protection dog"? Maybe that is why the SV dropped the term in place of IPO?
> 
> If someone's GSD will not protect them from a real threat, should that GSD ever be bred to produce more GSD's who are not according to the standard?
> 
> (Please note that I am not saying that you would ever breed your dog - just a very general observation!)
> 
> I am of course assuming that the standard does say that a GSD IS protective of their "pack" even at the cost of their own life.



The protection phase is only one part of the training/titling. I do not know what tracking has to do with protection, so if schutzhund translates to protection, why would they have 1/3 of the whole tracking?


----------



## martemchik

selzer said:


> The protection phase is only one part of the training/titling. I do not know what tracking has to do with protection, so if schutzhund translates to protection, why would they have 1/3 of the whole tracking?


So if the guy somehow manages to get away, the dog can track him down hours later and finish the job!!! Duh...


----------



## carmspack

protection of handler should not need to be trained . I would want a chihuahua (if I had one ) to make an effort.
What do people buy a GSD for , peace of mind and security , so that when vulnerable people left at home feel safe and are made safe .


----------



## martemchik

And in regards to the article...the last thing we need on this forum is another Manfred.


----------



## VALOR

selzer said:


> The protection phase is only one part of the training/titling. I do not know what tracking has to do with protection, so if schutzhund translates to protection, why would they have 1/3 of the whole tracking?


In my observation, both the tracking and protection phase of schutzhund not only test the dogs drives but ability to cope with stress and work through stressful situations. Both test the dogs' nerve. Watching a dog with strong hunt drive on a difficult track can be as impressive to me as watching a strong dog in protection. And nothing beats a dog that excels in all three phases.


----------



## selzer

I just think that we over-do the emphasis on the protection phase. There are 728,219 u-tubes on the protection training, and 619 on the obedience phase, and 2 on the tracking phase of the test. 

Ok, I just pulled those numbers out of the air. But it seems like all people talk about is the bite sleeve, the helper, a solid bite, a hold, and the like. I rarely hear or see much about the tracking phase at all.


----------



## Whiteshepherds

martemchik said:


> And in regards to the article...the last thing we need on this forum is another Manfred.


Why would you say that?


----------



## CeCe

"protection of handler should not need to be trained . I would want a chihuahua (if I had one ) to make an effort."
There was a fairly recent news story about two chihuahuas who fended off a robber of a business in northern California. They bit and chased him off and didn't back down.


----------



## selzer

Teacup Schutzhund. I have to say, it would be fun to watch.


----------



## cliffson1

@ Codmaster...you obviously didn't read my previous post or can't get your feelings around it...but I have already said the Sch test doesn't always weed out courage and protectiveness, but it does better than nothing at all....especially with breeders that don't work, train, or understand these aspects well. 
There is an audience on these forums that really crave first hand knowledge and benefit from these posts. They usually don't post often, but thoroughly understand what they are reading because it resonates with what they see in real life. Those people are who I write posts for.
When people start playing semantic games, its time for me to butt out.


----------



## codmaster

selzer said:


> The protection phase is only one part of the training/titling. I do not know what tracking has to do with protection, so if schutzhund translates to protection, why would they have 1/3 of the whole tracking?


 
You appear to have misinterpreted what I said - I said that the word "Schutzhund" translates to "protection dog" in German (At least I think it does!).

*Def:* *"Schutzhund is a German word meaning "protection dog"."*

I do agree that I don't know what tracking has to do with "Protection" either.

I also don't know why the folks in Germany originally the called the test "Schutzhund" either. Do you?


----------



## codmaster

cliffson1 said:


> @ Codmaster...you obviously didn't read my previous post or can't get your feelings around it...*but I have already said the Sch test doesn't always weed out courage and protectiveness*, but it does better than nothing at all....especially with breeders that don't work, train, or understand these aspects well.
> There is an audience on these forums that really crave first hand knowledge and benefit from these posts. They usually don't post often, but thoroughly understand what they are reading because it resonates with what they see in real life. Those people are who I write posts for.
> When people start playing semantic games, its time for me to butt out.


 
Which previous post might you be referring to?

you may have said it about the ScH but it would seem that many here have much more belief in the title.

BTW, should the ScH test "....* always weed out courage and protectiveness"* ? 

I thought it was a test designed originally to let the dog demonstrate that it had these qualities?


----------



## Whiteshepherds

Carmen had said in the previous post: *protection of handler should not need to be trained* 

So it this right? 

If the dog has the *correct temperament* he'll protect you because of the bond you have, regardless of whether or not he's done Schutzhund.

The bitework in Schutzhund isn't done to teach the dog HOW to protect, it's done to test the nerves, drives and overall temperament of the dog under stress. If the dog is going to release his grip because someone slaps them on the ribs or if they back up and cower when someone comes towards them yelling and swinging a stick, they don't have the best nerves. 
Going further...if you don't do Schutzhund there's really no other test or sport that tests the dogs under these kinds of conditions. So done correctly, with good and honest judges, the test would make perfect sense. 

Am I close?


----------



## cliffson1

:d:d:d


----------



## Liesje

codmaster said:


> You appear to have misinterpreted what I said - I said that the word "Schutzhund" translates to "protection dog" in German (At least I think it does!).
> 
> *Def:* *"Schutzhund is a German word meaning "protection dog"."*
> 
> I do agree that I don't know what tracking has to do with "Protection" either.
> 
> I also don't know why the folks in Germany originally the called the test "Schutzhund" either. Do you?


Why so hung up on the word? It's now all IPO anyway (and I have no clue what that stands for). I've seen fat unhealthy dogs doing "agility", ill-mannered dogs doing "obedience", dogs who can't swim doing "dock diving".....


----------



## Mrs.K

Liesje said:


> Why so hung up on the word? * It's now all IPO anyway (and I have no clue what that stands for)*. I've seen fat unhealthy dogs doing "agility", ill-mannered dogs doing "obedience", dogs who can't swim doing "dock diving".....


It's stands for* Internationale Pruefungs Ordnung*. Which means International Trial Regulations/Rules.


----------



## Mrs.K

codmaster said:


> You appear to have misinterpreted what I said - I said that the word "Schutzhund" translates to "protection dog" in German (At least I think it does!).
> 
> *Def:* *"Schutzhund is a German word meaning "protection dog"."*
> 
> I do agree that I don't know what tracking has to do with "Protection" either.
> 
> I also don't know why the folks in Germany originally the called the test "Schutzhund" either. Do you?


Okay, first of all, in Germany it has been a while since it's been called Schutzhund. It's called VPG which is Vielseitigkeit Sport and translates into "Eventing"(?) Versatility Sport?

Furthermore, the Sport of Schutzhund has it's origins in the police dog work. The dog was supposed to present Obedience, his ability to track and protect. 

Because of nitpickers that took offense in the name Schutzhund and because of the public that saw an Attack dog rather than a sport, Schutzhund was named VPG and now IPO. 

Happy now?


----------



## crackem

People will cling to the tiniest of details and ride it to the end. It's usually a sign that some don't really want to learn, want to know or care when semantics become the focal point. It's usually the only point that is left to argue so they can somehow be "right".


----------



## cliffson1

@ Martemchik....I hope I am one of those Manfred Heyne types you feel we don't need more of on this list....I would be so honored to be labeled like him based on my thinking for the breed!


----------



## Mrs.K

cliffson1 said:


> @ Martemchik....I hope I am one of those Manfred Heyne types you feel we don't need more of on this list....I would be so honored to be labeled like him based on my thinking for the breed!


Right there with you.


----------



## martemchik

cliffson1 said:


> @ Martemchik....I hope I am one of those Manfred Heyne types you feel we don't need more of on this list....I would be so honored to be labeled like him based on my thinking for the breed!


Oh no...people like him I respect and we need more of. I'd love to have a dog from the lines he works with, I definately think we have lost too much of the shepherd in today's GSD. I've stated before that when I went for the HIC, a lady looked at my dog and said, "A German Shepherd? I didn't realize they were herding dogs."

I was making a joke about someone else on the forum, I think Whiteshepherds caught me...sorry if anyone thought it was in bad taste.


----------



## Catu

cliffson1 said:


> There is an audience on these forums that really crave first hand knowledge and benefit from these posts. They usually don't post often, but thoroughly understand what they are reading because it resonates with what they see in real life. Those people are who I write posts for.


Me, me, me!!!!
:greet:


----------



## martemchik

And just a heads up, I really do respect your opinion cliff, you were one of the first on this board that I saw renounce some of the temperments you see today in the SchH world. It really showed me that you weren't just a crazed working line person, but you really do care about the breed as a whole being what it was once meant to be. You were one of the first that pointed out to me how many of the top world dogs are really not true to the standard although everyone rages about how great they are due to their SchH scores.


----------



## Andaka

> If the dog has the *correct temperament* he'll protect you because of the bond you have, regardless of whether or not he's done Schutzhund.


Yes. I have had it happen with more than one dog.


----------



## Debbieg

cliffson1 said:


> @ Martemchik....I hope I am one of those Manfred Heyne types you feel we don't need more of on this list....I would be so honored to be labeled like him based on my thinking for the breed!



:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## cliffson1

@ Martemchik...I sincerely apologize as I definitely interpreted your post wrong!
There are starting to be as many Sch people that are irritated with me as show people. I really do care about the breed, and there is still a place in society for a sound GS with all the traits from yesteryear. The show and sport world may be well intentioned, but they have carried it too far in many cases. The irony is that the founder said 80 years ago that these two venues were not beneficial to breed exclusively for.....but there are so many psuedo experts today and money trumps everything.
I guess for me, if he was smart enough to see this far ahead, then what he tried to keep intact is sound in all respects.


----------



## Jack's Dad

Schutzhund and show may both require a lot of time, training and money but in my uneducated opinion both are like teaching children to pass the test. 
They are probably both fun for those who participate.

The thing I notice though, is they are trained very well but I don't see them having to think much. 

I actually believe a competiton agility dog probably is required to think more because things can be changed up on them. The mechanics of it can be trained but the obsticles can be changed or moved etc.... then the dogs have to follow direction and think for themselves.

PSA they have to think.

Herding as the article mentioned, they have to think.

I don't think I could spend a whole day at a schutzhund or show event.

It's like watching re-runs over and over and over. 
Just my opinion as an observer.


----------



## GatorDog

Jack's Dad said:


> Schutzhund and show may both require a lot of time, training and money but in my uneducated opinion both are like teaching children to pass the test.
> They are probably both fun for those who participate.
> 
> The thing I notice though, is they are trained very well but I don't see them having to think much.
> 
> I actually believe a competiton agility dog probably is required to think more because things can be changed up on them. The mechanics of it can be trained but the obsticles can be changed or moved etc.... then the dogs have to follow direction and think for themselves.
> 
> PSA they have to think.
> 
> Herding as the article mentioned, they have to think.
> 
> I don't think I could spend a whole day at a schutzhund or show event.
> 
> It's like watching re-runs over and over and over.
> Just my opinion as an observer.


Clearly you've never trained in Schutzhund before. To say that they don't have to think is ridiculous. If they didn't have to think, then the whole trial would be dogs running around a field doing whatever they want, biting the helper whenever they want, with no instruction, and every dog would pass.

Control in a Schutzhund dog requires a whole lot of thinking. It goes the same way for any other competitive dog sport.


----------



## Jack's Dad

GatorDog said:


> Clearly you've never trained in Schutzhund before. To say that they don't have to think is ridiculous. If they didn't have to think, then the whole trial would be dogs running around a field doing whatever they want, biting the helper whenever they want, with no instruction, and every dog would pass.
> 
> Control in a Schutzhund dog requires a whole lot of thinking. It goes the same way for any other competitive dog sport.


Clearly you misunderstood my post. Training a dog to bark and hold is training. Once it learns, if it learns well it does it every time. 

I didn't say or mean to imply that the training is easy. 

Why don't they vary the blinds, or the rotation or better yet mix up everything on the field and change the order. Then you will see a dog think.


----------



## codmaster

Jack's Dad said:


> Schutzhund and show may both require a lot of time, training and money but in my uneducated opinion both are like teaching children to pass the test. They are probably both fun for those who participate.
> The thing I notice though, is they are trained very well but I don't see them having to think much.
> I actually believe a competiton agility dog probably is required to think more because things can be changed up on them. The mechanics of it can be trained but the obsticles can be changed or moved etc.... then the dogs* have to follow direction and think for themselves. *
> *PSA they have to think. *
> Herding as the article mentioned, they have to think.
> I don't think I could spend a whole day at a schutzhund or show event.
> It's like watching re-runs over and over and over.
> Just my opinion as an observer.


 
Ifg they "follow directions", then what do they have to think about?

Just "Over the jump and thru the tunnel we go!".

If they had to run the entire course by themselves with no direction, THEN they might have to do a little thinking; but Agility as it is - NOPE! No thinking required just a little athleticism!

But enjoy the dogs all running over the same course!


----------



## martemchik

In agility the handler tells the dog what to do...they see a jump, they were trained to jump, so they jump. They see a tunnel, they go through the tunnel, they see an A-Frame, they go up and down the frame. The trainer tells them what to do...so just because the order is switched the dog is still responding to the same command it was taught by the handler. Same logic as in Schutzhund. Now, if you just let your dog out onto the agility course and it did everything perfectly, in the correct order (like the judge set it up), each and every time, then I would call your dog a genius and admit that it is doing a much higher level of thinking.

This is coming from a person that has only done obedience and rally as of now, and I'm waiting to start agility. So this is coming as a complete outsider to both sports. I'm just saying your logic doesn't make much sense once you really boil down what the dogs are doing in each sport (including rally and obedience).


----------



## GatorDog

Jack's Dad said:


> Clearly you misunderstood my post. Training a dog to bark and hold is training. Once it learns, if it learns well it does it every time.
> 
> I didn't say or mean to imply that the training is easy.
> 
> Why don't they vary the blinds, or the rotation or better yet mix up everything on the field and change the order. Then you will see a dog think.


Because those are the rules of Schutzhund. That's it. Any well trained Schutzhund dog will do a bark and hold on a helper regardless of what blind he is in or where it is. Like you said, once they learn it well, they do it every time.


----------



## robinhuerta

I really didn't want to join in this thread....but....I do have an opinion...so here it is, as simple as it can be.
*A good working dog is a thinking dog period.* not just related to Schutzhund.
Schutzhund consists of *3 phases...not just one.*

1) Tracking is a *thinking* phase....although it may look easy to many...it is not.
And the higher the level of tracking, the tougher it is. Not all dogs can handle the *pressure* of tracking....so YES...it is a thinking phase. _*Consider PoliceK9s*_
2) Obedience is a *thinking* phase also......YES...it consists of training....but it also contains "control".....thinking is also needed for proper control. _*Consider_ _PoliceK9s*_
3) Protection Bite-work......to be honest...this also consists of "thinking".
A weak dog can *do it* if trained properly & consistently.....but there is a difference between that...and a dog that is *properly* tested by the judge and helper......if a "weak" dog is given the opportunity, where he must *think* about the pressure that is coming....he will often show signs of it, or even leave the situation......so YES...there is also *thinking* involved. _*Again, consider PoliceK9s*_

DRIVES can over compensate a lot...including the *thinking* process....JMO...nothing more....not pretending to be an expert.


----------



## GatorDog

robinhuerta said:


> I really didn't want to join in this thread....but....I do have an opinion...so here it is, as simple as it can be.
> *A good working dog is a thinking dog period.* not just related to Schutzhund.
> Schutzhund consists of *3 phases...not just one.*
> 
> 1) Tracking is a *thinking* phase....although it may look easy to many...it is not.
> And the higher the level of tracking, the tougher it is. Not all dogs can handle the *pressure* of tracking....so YES...it is a thinking phase. _*Consider PoliceK9s*_
> 2) Obedience is a *thinking* phase also......YES...it consists of training....but it also contains "control".....thinking is also needed for proper control. _*Consider_ _PoliceK9s*_
> 3) Protection Bite-work......to be honest...this also consists of "thinking".
> A weak dog can *do it* if trained properly & consistently.....but there is a difference between that...and a dog that is *properly* tested by the judge and helper......if a "weak" dog is given the opportunity, where he must *think* about the pressure that is coming....he will often show signs of it, or even leave the situation......so YES...there is also *thinking* involved. _*Again, consider PoliceK9s*_
> 
> DRIVES can over compensate a lot...including the *thinking* process....JMO...nothing more....not pretending to be an expert.


:thumbup:


----------



## Jack's Dad

I agree with Robin.

I didn't say that different venues don't require "any" thinking on the part of the dogs.
What I have seen though is a lot of them just walk through the venue. It is rote.
I'm not going to argue it. It's just an observation. PSA is more demanding with more variables, again from observation.

Vandal, Carmen, Cliff, Robin, Lisa, Lee, and many others I'm sure could talk about dogs who think. I'll leave it to them.


----------



## Catu

Jack's Dad said:


> I don't think I could spend a whole day at a schutzhund or show event.
> 
> It's like watching re-runs over and over and over.
> Just my opinion as an observer.




About being an observer, it all goes in the understanding of what to see. I don't like to see sports, for me it is always the same. Soccer is always 22 guys in shorts running after a ball, yet millions of people over the world seem to disagree with me.

For someone who doesn't has a clue (I imagine trying to take my brother to a trial, by example) it may be interesting to see the first dog, pretty similar the second dog and plain boring to see a third one. It is like seeing a movie in another language, you see the characters and the movement, but you don't really know what is going on. But when you know what to look for, every dog is a different world and I'm sure you, after reading your posts, would enjoy being in a trial and taking notice of the different performances of the different dogs, even when the choreography is the same.


----------



## Jack's Dad

Just want to add. A police K9 and or seeing eye dog or herding dog cannot be trained for all scenarios. They must be able to think.

Catu. I'm sure it is fun if you are involved.


----------



## robinhuerta

_Oh...I'm no expert...*_that would be my husband, not me*......I simply have an educated opinion, from what I've personally been involved with...._nothing more._
*There are Schutzhund and sport experts here.....I'm sure they can be much more* *insightful......*my opinion stems from a partnership to/with someone who trains and has performed the duties required....and continues to do so.


----------



## GatorDog

Jack's Dad said:


> Just want to add. A police K9 and or seeing eye dog or herding dog cannot be trained for all scenarios. They must be able to think.
> 
> Catu. I'm sure it is fun if you are involved.


So now we go from Schutzhund and agility, which are hobbies/sports, to Police k9's, herding dogs, and seeing eye dogs, which are animals who work every day of their lives. Totally different scenarios. Can't even begin to compare them.

To say that dogs trained in anything don't think is ridiculous. Training involves thinking. End of story.


----------



## Jack's Dad

GatorDog said:


> So now we go from Schutzhund and agility, which are hobbies/sports, to Police k9's, herding dogs, and seeing eye dogs, which are animals who work every day of their lives. Totally different scenarios. Can't even begin to compare them.
> 
> To say that dogs trained in anything don't think is ridiculous. Training involves thinking. End of story.


Well excuuusssssssseeeee me for thinking that the GSD is more than a sport dog.
And for about the third time I didn't say they don't have a brain or don't use it. I said it is mostly training. 
Your end of story line is dismissive, holier than thou, and uncalled for.


----------



## GatorDog

Jack's Dad said:


> Well excuuusssssssseeeee me for thinking that the GSD is more than a sport dog.
> And for about the third time I didn't say they don't have a brain or don't use it. I said it is mostly training.
> Your end of story line is dismissive, holier than thou, and uncalled for.


No, it's not. The fact that you say that Schutzhund dogs don't need to think is a ridiculous assumption.
To train a dog, they must think. How else will they learn what they are being trained to do? I honestly don't understand what you think training is.
And I'm not sure why you are trying to compare a Schutzhund dog to an agility dog to a Police K9. They are all trained _completely_ differently.


----------



## crackem

Considering titleing and training in schutzhund has given rise to almost every working dog and their bloodlines for the past 100 years, I'd say it has some validity when people actually use it as a test. 

To say they don't or can't think is spoken like a true sideline observer.


----------



## Andaka

Careful People. I know that this is almost as bad as talking about olitics or religion. Just try harder to keep it civil.


----------



## Mrs.K

robinhuerta said:


> I really didn't want to join in this thread....but....I do have an opinion...so here it is, as simple as it can be.
> *A good working dog is a thinking dog period.* not just related to Schutzhund.
> Schutzhund consists of *3 phases...not just one.*
> 
> 1) *Tracking is a *thinking* phase....although it may look easy to many...it is not.*
> And the higher the level of tracking, the tougher it is. Not all dogs can handle the *pressure* of tracking....so YES...it is a thinking phase. _*Consider PoliceK9s*_
> 2) Obedience is a *thinking* phase also......YES...it consists of training....but it also contains "control".....thinking is also needed for proper control. _*Consider_ _PoliceK9s*_
> 3) Protection Bite-work......to be honest...this also consists of "thinking".
> A weak dog can *do it* if trained properly & consistently.....but there is a difference between that...and a dog that is *properly* tested by the judge and helper......if a "weak" dog is given the opportunity, where he must *think* about the pressure that is coming....he will often show signs of it, or even leave the situation......so YES...there is also *thinking* involved. _*Again, consider PoliceK9s*_
> 
> DRIVES can over compensate a lot...including the *thinking* process....JMO...nothing more....not pretending to be an expert.



As a matter of fact, there have been dogs collapsing during FH training tracks because it's that mentally and physically demanding. 

I am not an expert in anything and like you only have an educated opinion but I know of dogs that seriously collapsed during tracking because it IS THAT demanding. And those were not weak dogs either.


----------



## selzer

Andy, I agree with you. Not commenting on tracking, but especially for obedience, it is testing their training, much moreso than their thinking. But I think it is mostly semantics. I wish there was a test that would actually test their ability to think and another to test their trainablity. Obedience and agility and rally also do not require thinking, not for the test. The dog must be capable of associating a hand signal or verbal command with an action, but at that point it is all performing what they have been trained to do.

Thinking would be like when the puppy did not want to go past my Dad, and could not go over the couch to get to me, so he ran through the living room, dining room, kitchen, up the back stairs, down the hall and down the front stairs to get to me. No one trained the puppy to do that, the used his thought processes. 

Maybe schutzhund has some component that is not trained, and cannot be practiced until it is completely learned. This is why I don't think it is the title, but the journey to the titling process. I have titles on all my dogs but the youngest two, but getting from here to there with them was not the same. And is some respects, it is not the ability of the dog so much as the ability of the trainer/handler. A mediocre dog with a good or committed trainer, can do better than a good dog with a poor handler. But the mediocre dogs will not produce better puppies because he had a good handler and managed to get through the process.


----------



## gagsd

And how much "thinking" do you think goes into "training?" It is certainly not all trialing.


----------



## selzer

Yes, but training can be done so many different ways dependent on the dog. You can train a command in a quiet place (no distractions) until it is second nature and then introduce distractions, and continue to train and practice, and practice, and practice until a less then stellar dog will do what you ask under distractions. Just because I can train my dog to accept the judge running a hand down her back does not mean she is stable, it just means that I have surmounted the let-a-stranger-run-their-hand-down-the-back while the dog is on a stand stay with me six feet away. No thinking. Not really a test. Some dogs could take that a whole lot quicker and easier than other dogs. 

There may be thinking in training, but some dogs do a lot more thinking than other dogs. And they can sometimes be more of a challenge. Any dog can learn to heel, to sit, to down, to come, and to stay. The test tests whether the dog has been trained, but not how easy the dog is to train, or how quick the dog is to learn.


----------



## Mrs.K

selzer said:


> Yes, but training can be done so many different ways dependent on the dog. You can train a command in a quiet place (no distractions) until it is second nature and then introduce distractions, and continue to train and practice, and practice, and practice until a less then stellar dog will do what you ask under distractions. Just because I can train my dog to accept the judge running a hand down her back does not mean she is stable, it just means that I have surmounted the let-a-stranger-run-their-hand-down-the-back while the dog is on a stand stay with me six feet away. No thinking. Not really a test. Some dogs could take that a whole lot quicker and easier than other dogs.
> 
> There may be thinking in training, but some dogs do a lot more thinking than other dogs. And they can sometimes be more of a challenge. Any dog can learn to heel, to sit, to down, to come, and to stay. The test tests whether the dog has been trained, but not how easy the dog is to train, or how quick the dog is to learn.


I have yet to see a dog that can't learn to think. So far we've been doing nothing but shaping in the training and it's amazing how the dogs learn to think and decide for themselves without using a single command in the beginning and then later on you add the queue.


----------



## selzer

I am not familiar with shaping nor what you mean by adding the queue. 

I don't think a dog can learn to think, all dogs can think, but some dogs are sharper than other dogs. Generally tests, trials measure the dog's training, not their ability to think. I think that you might train a dog to act independently by encouraging them and building their confidence, that dog will display their ability to think quicker than a dog that is constantly controlled by blunt commands.


----------



## Jack's Dad

I don't know why these things get all blown out of proportion.
All dogs think. All breeds think. Some are smarter than others.
The Op took a not very well disguised shot at companion dogs snd particularly ASL. 

It seemed to imply that if your dog cannot make it in schutzhund it is not worthy to be bred. At least it can't be titled and bred.

So I got to thinking that maybe because of advanced training methods that schutzhund as it is today is not the best test. 

People are constantly reminded on this board if they spell "shepherd" wrong.

Where is the "herd" part in shepherd in schutzhund?

Perhaps herding should be the breed worthiness test.

Yes GSDs are good at many things and schutzhund is the gold standard right now. That doesn't mean its's a great test of overall utility.
It is a sport with dogs being bred and trained specificily for it.

I'm sure it's a great sport. It tells us something but I'm not sure it is the best test of breed worthiness.

All dog sports are good and teach us something.

I have two working line dogs so I have no axe to grind as far as the original OP.

Thanks selzer.


----------



## cliffson1

Most dogs sports are more training and conditioning than thinking. Even American herding is a rote exrecise that a dog can be pattern trained to accomplish. Police/military work, real herding, and a seeing-eye service dog require the dog to make decisions many times, INDEPENDENT of the handler. This is where the thinking and the unique beauty of this breed was unparalleled. In these instances new situations can arise in which the dog has to make split second decisions to continue or complete a task. When you start asking a dog to do this calm nerve and strong focus on task are required to make good sound judgements. A police tracking dog may go over 4 different surfaces, have to hop a fence, go from ground scent to air scent to maintain pursuit of the trail. The seeing-eye dog has to navigate all types of terrain, look out for objects and not be frazzled by noise, people, or animals. There has to be a dedication to the task of the blind person that requires a toughness(although not aggression), that many many GS no longer possess, hence part of the reason for their decline in use. 
Our breed needs to get back to a "mutt" temperament so to speak....as Manfred says, the real great dogs of the past were simple and of staunch character. Ever notice how mutts don't have to be socialized out the wazoo, they can go into the Petsmark without that slinking worried look, they are comfortable on most surfaces, and often very agile....solid temperament . Go to the training and puppy sections and see how difficult it is with so many of our breed today......We have turned this fabulous blue collar working dog into an elite high strung semblance of its past. AND Breeders did this, it didn't happen from evolution. GS treated like Foo Foo dogs, and excuses made for the poor performance and character far too often seen.
Now the above is not aimed at owners of the breed, everyone has a beautiful loving dog that hopefully fits them...the above is the minimum criteria that a breeder should have in their head when breeding. If you have never worked a dog extensively, how would you know these qualities from the trained conditioned actions we often see today. But training and conditioning won't pass in the genes, so you can't be deficient in this area and really know what you are breeding. You kinda get the idea that many people are BREEDING german shepherds that don't have the foundation?????


----------



## Mrs.K

The same almost goes for SAR dogs.


----------



## Jack's Dad

cliffson1 said:


> Most dogs sports are more training and conditioning than thinking. Even American herding is a rote exrecise that a dog can be pattern trained to accomplish. Police/military work, real herding, and a seeing-eye service dog regard the dog to make decisions many times, INDEPEDENT of the handler. This is where the thinking and the unique beauty of this breed was unparalleled. In these instances new situations can arise in which the dog has to make split second decisions to continue or complete a task. When you start asking a dog to do this calm nerve and strong focus on task are required to make good sound judgements. A police tracking dog may go over 4 different surfaces, have to hop a fence, go from ground scent to air scent to maintain pursuit of the trail. The seeing-eye dog has to navigate all types of terrain, look out for objects and not be frazzled by noise, people, or animals. There has to be a dedication to the task of the blind person that requires a toughness(although not aggression), that many many GS no longer possess, hence part of the reason for their decline in use.
> Our breed needs to get back to a "mutt" temperament so to speak....as Manfred says, the real great dogs of the past were simple and of staunch character. Ever notice how mutts don't have to be socialized out the wazoo, they can go into the Petsmark without that slinking worried look, they are comfortable on most surfaces, and often very agile....solid temperament . Go to the training and puppy sections and see how difficult it is with so many of our breed today......We have turned this fabulous blue collar working dog into an elite high strung semblance of its past. AND Breeders did this, it didn't happen from evolution. GS treated like Foo Foo dogs, and excuses made for the poor performance and character far too often seen.



:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: and a huge Amen.


----------



## sparra

cliffson1 said:


> Our breed needs to get back to a "mutt" temperament so to speak....as Manfred says, the real great dogs of the past were simple and of staunch character. Ever notice how mutts don't have to be socialized out the wazoo, they can go into the Petsmark without that slinking worried look, they are comfortable on most surfaces, and often very agile....solid temperament . Go to the training and puppy sections and see how difficult it is with so many of our breed today......We have turned this fabulous blue collar working dog into an elite high strung semblance of its past. AND Breeders did this, it didn't happen from evolution. GS treated like Foo Foo dogs, and excuses made for the poor performance and character far too often seen.


:thumbup:


----------



## selzer

cliffson1 said:


> Most dogs sports are more training and conditioning than thinking. Even American herding is a rote exrecise that a dog can be pattern trained to accomplish. Police/military work, real herding, and a seeing-eye service dog require the dog to make decisions many times, INDEPENDENT of the handler. This is where the thinking and the unique beauty of this breed was unparalleled. In these instances new situations can arise in which the dog has to make split second decisions to continue or complete a task. When you start asking a dog to do this calm nerve and strong focus on task are required to make good sound judgements. A police tracking dog may go over 4 different surfaces, have to hop a fence, go from ground scent to air scent to maintain pursuit of the trail. The seeing-eye dog has to navigate all types of terrain, look out for objects and not be frazzled by noise, people, or animals. There has to be a dedication to the task of the blind person that requires a toughness(although not aggression), that many many GS no longer possess, hence part of the reason for their decline in use.
> Our breed needs to get back to a "mutt" temperament so to speak....as Manfred says, the real great dogs of the past were simple and of staunch character. Ever notice how mutts don't have to be socialized out the wazoo, they can go into the Petsmark without that slinking worried look, they are comfortable on most surfaces, and often very agile....solid temperament . Go to the training and puppy sections and see how difficult it is with so many of our breed today......We have turned this fabulous blue collar working dog into an elite high strung semblance of its past. AND Breeders did this, it didn't happen from evolution. GS treated like Foo Foo dogs, and excuses made for the poor performance and character far too often seen.
> Now the above is not aimed at owners of the breed, everyone has a beautiful loving dog that hopefully fits them...the above is the minimum criteria that a breeder should have in their head when breeding. If you have never worked a dog extensively, how would you know these qualities from the trained conditioned actions we often see today. But training and conditioning won't pass in the genes, so you can't be deficient in this area and really know what you are breeding. You kinda get the idea that many people are BREEDING german shepherds that don't have the foundation?????


agree


----------



## Debbieg

cliffson1 said:


> Most dogs sports are more training and conditioning than thinking. Even American herding is a rote exrecise that a dog can be pattern trained to accomplish. Police/military work, real herding, and a seeing-eye service dog require the dog to make decisions many times, INDEPENDENT of the handler. This is where the thinking and the unique beauty of this breed was unparalleled. ?


Yes! :thumbup: I think this is what Andy "Jack's Dad" was saying several posts back.


----------



## codmaster

Sometimes I would prefer that my dog NOT think too much for themselves! he likes to do that a little too much as it is! Heh! heh!


----------



## crackem

> It seemed to imply that if your dog cannot make it in schutzhund it is not worthy to be bred. At least it can't be titled and bred.


as it stands it is the most complete test, for those that actually use it as such. Those that pay lip service and treat it as something less that it is, get dogs capable of less than they should be. There is no doubt there is a difference between dogs consistently bred to the standard, and those that are held to none.



> Where is the "herd" part in shepherd in schutzhund?


I think a serious look into the history and why the qualities that made a herding dog so great are the same qualities found in great schutzhund dogs. I'm not saying it's perfect, but if you're not testing your breeding dogs under pressure and all sorts of it, you're doing the breed a diservice. Schutzhund transfers the qualities of a good herding dog, assuming those people are using it as an actual test, not something to get more points or pay some judge in another country to give you a title.



> Ever notice how mutts don't have to be socialized out the wazoo, they can go into the Petsmark without that slinking worried look, they are comfortable on most surfaces, and often very agile....solid temperament . Go to the training and puppy sections and see how difficult it is with so many of our breed today....


I gotta say, I certainly don't have any problem taking my dogs anywhere from puppyhood, adulthood or any other hood. They just were what they were, nothing special really done. and i've certainly seen my share of "mutts" that were slinking around and pretty much scared ****less of plastic bags in the wind. I'll take my GSD temperaments over those anyday.



> If you have never worked a dog extensively, how would you know these qualities from the trained conditioned actions we often see today. But training and conditioning won't pass in the genes, so you can't be deficient in this area and really know what you are breeding. You kinda get the idea that many people are BREEDING german shepherds that don't have the foundation?????


That is very true. It's why I only buy dogs from breeders that work their own dogs. They know them, they know their lines, they know how to breed a complete dog. Paper breeders, competitors and their bought dogs bred to other score books don't produce much but money for their pocket books. Don't even get me started on breeders that neither work, nor buy previously titled or worked dogs.


----------



## codmaster

It just sounds like your dogs are the embodiment of the GSD standard.

Is it true, as it seems to imply above, that you never have worked your dogs? Just buy from breeders who Have worked their dogs? They know their own dogs - but how would you know your dogs if you never work them? Or does someone else work your dogs?


----------



## crackem

codmaster said:


> It just sounds like your dogs are the embodiment of the GSD standard.
> 
> Is it true, as it seems to imply above, that you never have worked your dogs? Just buy from breeders who Have worked their dogs? They know their own dogs - but how would you know your dogs if you never work them? Or does someone else work your dogs?


what? how you come up with some of your responses I'll never know. Of course I work my dogs. I work many others as well. It was well after 10 last night when I got home again and it's just my hobby. I work them in multiple venues. Of course others work my dogs, and no, I don't breed them. It's too much work. I'd rather help others test and train their dogs and they can breed them 

I buy my dogs from breeders that actively work their dogs. They've worked and tested the mother, the father, siblings from those dogs, they keep back progeny, they work them, they test them, they make breeding decisions about them. I find a much higher quality dog coming from breeders that know their dogs than from breeders that are just buying titled dogs or buying some hype and breeding some dogs and worse yet are those that have neither trained nor tested their dogs at all.

I'm not going to argue their aren't a lot of really crappy dogs out there and dogs that aren't missing a whole lot of what they should have. But it doesn't mean I can't find dogs that I really like.


----------



## cliffson1

The correlation between traits needed for a real herding dog and a dog to be successful in schutzhund are the very same. From drives, to grips to nerves, temperament. PERIOD!! No difference. That's why they were and are still interchangable in validating the working requirement for a German Shepherd in Germany. PLUS....the traits it takes to handle 200 plus sheep required for an HGH test are very much the same traits as necessary to get a Sch degree. It is so much more demanding to handle 200 plus sheep, move them in open terrain, keep them out of road when vehicle passes, and other aspects. Some sheep can be stubbon, and once grazing on good grass don't want to move, and contrary to the ill informed(I have to change some of my words to not hurt feelings), some of the ewes and rams especially in a flock of 200 will actually run over the dog and take the dog's heart if its not rock steady. Many dogs that can get an American herding title could NOT get a HGH title because the dog would wash out. So, again MISCONCEPTIONS about the utlity and strength of the breed, through herding, is very prevalent amongst those that haven't seen or understand an HGH test. Thus leading to not getting an appreciation of the mental and physical strength that should be a minimum before someone breeds a German Shepherd.


----------



## martemchik

The combination of words that have been used in the past two pages is fantastic. I'm not sure what conclusion is being reached but some people are arguing that sport and work are the same thing, yet others are clearly saying you can't compare the two. Then there is the same thing going on with thinking and training. Quite intersting...

In my opinion I could care less what you do with your dog. Because just doing it makes you a better owner than 99% of pet owners. I guess the perfect dog would be a Ch. SchH3 HGH UDX agility champion RAE Sieger somewhere in there and all the other things I missed. Sadly, it would take 20 years to get all that done on a single dog. Also there would probably be issues since this dog would most likely look like a showline (which some here would have an issue with). I would love to have a puppy from two dogs that work sheep on a daily basis. I wouldn't care if they had titles or championships, it would just be awesome to have one (I think I'll look for this the next time I'm in the market). But what this comes down to is that with so many things to do, breeders/exhibitors/owners have to specialize, some will think SchH is the best test, others will think HGH, while others think UDX is. And anyone looking to compete in the respective venue will probably look to parents that do too.

I also do take offense to the statement that only true working dogs think (K9s, service, SAR). I know its not directed towards my dog, but its such a blanket statement saying that only dogs that have a job think. That makes .001% of all dogs think, and the rest just dumbly follow orders.


----------



## Samba

Unfortunately, it did not used to be such that a dog could not excel at many of those things and venues. Unfortunately now the various venues have created their "own" dog. Really back in time there were very good working dogs who placed high in conformation and other activities who produced dogs for real world service also.


----------



## martemchik

Samba said:


> Unfortunately, it did not used to be such that a dog could not excel at many of those things and venues. Unfortunately now the various venues have created their "own" dog. Really back in time there were very good working dogs who placed high in conformation and other activities who produced dogs for real world service also.


Oh, I'm not saying that the dogs can't excel at all of those things. Its just that there is not enough time or money to do it all with one dog.


----------



## Emoore

cliffson1 said:


> Ever notice how mutts don't have to be socialized out the wazoo, they can go into the Petsmark without that slinking worried look, they are comfortable on most surfaces, and often very agile....solid temperament .


Honestly? No. I've been in classes continuously since Feb 2011, with the exception of a 6 week break in the holidays. Every 6-8 weeks it's a different class with different dogs. And I _don't_ see mutts that are superior in intelligence and temperament. They're not any worse, but they're also not any better. I see purebreds that are shy and worried, and I see mutts that are shy and worried. I see purebreds that are confident and bold, and I see mutts that are confident and bold. The dogs I've seen that are consistently the most confident, the least worried or slinking, the boldest on different surfaces and on agility obstacles, the least concerned about wheelchairs and crutches and umbrellas and funny hats, the fastest to learn a new behavior, are a field-bred Lab, an Australian Shepherd, and my dog. Talking with the owners, what these three dogs have in common is they are all dogs that were purchased from a breeder who has an intelligent breeding program with a purpose. Neither the lab nor the Aussie nor my dog were purchased out of the newspaper for a couple hundred bucks, nor are they random-bred mutts. They were purchased by owners who did their due diligence and research before buying a dog. 

Granted, this is a very small sample, but in a full year of constantly rotating classes with different dogs, I just don't see that mutts are better. Maybe Dallas mutts just suck.


----------



## codmaster

crackem said:


> *what? how you come up with some of your responses I'll never know.* Of course I work my dogs. I work many others as well. It was well after 10 last night when I got home again and it's just my hobby. I work them in multiple venues. Of course others work my dogs, and no, I don't breed them. It's too much work. I'd rather help others test and train their dogs and they can breed them
> 
> .............................


*Ok, try to follow my reasoning -*

Here is what YOU quoted above:'
If you have never worked a dog extensively, how would you know these qualities from the trained conditioned actions we often see today. ......? 

*And your response was:*
*"That is very true.............."*

*Are you changing your mind now? - I.E. is it not true what you said was true. About you never working your dog?*

*THAT is what I was referring to in my response. *

*Sorry so much if I misread what you said abouy it being "very true" about you never working your dog, and just buying your dogs from breeders who work THEIR dogs!*

*So it is really great for you to work your dogs so much, and that they behave so well everywhere!*

*So you work your dogs in what? - OB, Rally, S&R, Herding, Agility, ScH, PP, Therapy, etc. - probably a lot of things.*


----------



## Vandal

I don't agree that SchH dogs do not somehow "think" but I kind of view it a bit differently. Watch a dog with bad nerves, they appear to "think" more than the ones with good ones. Sounds funny but they feel danger where other dogs do not and you will see more "thinking" going on than you really want. lol. 

I understand what Cliff is saying about what seems to be independent thinking on the part of the better dogs. I will simply offer this. I think I don't want to call it thinking as much as I want to call it genetic obedience. Meaning, the dog is born with all the traits and those traits are displayed in their behaviors. They are genetically programmed to perform tasks that other dogs are not designed for. Some of the things Cliff talked about goes back to the herding genetics including seeing eye work. I view it as genetic behaviors. I think nowadays, many would find what I just said, almost preposterous. IMO it is because the training techniques have taken center stage and the belief in the dog's genetics have been pushed aside.

People do not really believe a dog can be born knowing how to do what they were BRED FOR. I find that kind of amusing and sad. Look at a Pointer. Do people teach them to point with some kind of fancy pulley system on a board using an e-collar? Well, I hope not but this is what people are doing with GSDs. They are trying to train it INTO the dogs. You can't do that but if people realized that, the training videos would not sell as well.

When I work my dogs, I see just how fast they learn or not. I am working one now who simply strikes me as a genius. He just seems to innately understand what I want and also what SchH asks of him. He learns everything really fast. Nope, doesn't stand on his head for a ball or tug, I'm not using those. He does it because I say good boy but more importantly, because it is in him genetically to be capable of what the training is asking of him. He finds satisfaction in the work itself. THAT is genetic obedience. Drive satisfaction. So, if the dog has all that is what a GSD is supposed to possess genetically, he will get drive satisfaction from the work itself. He is not there thinking about what I want, although that comes into play at times, he does it because it comes naturally to him and that comes thru his genetics. He is very balanced, good nerves and all that. I have worked dogs that just made the training unpleasant, because they were so slow to pick it up. Something was missing in the dog that either made tracking training difficult, obedience, protection...one of them.

When I started in SchH way back when, I didn't know what I was doing. Yet, I had rather good success with my dogs. Why? Because of the dogs I accidentally bought without knowing much of anything. Took me a while to figure out it was the dogs but I am a believer now, that's for sure.

I hear people blaming themselves or their helper or whatever. While there is some truth that a really BAD trainer can really screw things up, if you are an average trainer and you have a great GSD, you can achieve great things without knowing how to use all the "training tools". I am a pretty good trainer at this point but I still need a good dog. It is not true that training can hide weaknesses. I can see them and I don't care who the trainer is. If I work the dog as the helper, I can see and FEEL the weakness. If you know what you are looking at, you can see it in the SchH exercises. Which leads me to my last point.

The problem now is, so many people have been betrayed by the judges who have rewarded less than average dogs with very high scores or placings. People have been led to believe that these are very good GSDs. Because of this, there is a level of ignorance that exists now. It is being encouraged by the people who have something to gain from it and unfortunately, they are the ones with the greatest ability to spread their message.


----------



## crackem

codmaster said:


> *Ok, try to follow my reasoning -*
> 
> Here is what YOU quoted above:'
> If you have never worked a dog extensively, how would you know these qualities from the trained conditioned actions we often see today. ......?
> 
> *And your response was:*
> *"That is very true.............."*
> 
> *Are you changing your mind now? - I.E. is it not true what you said was true. About you never working your dog?*
> 
> *THAT is what I was referring to in my response. *
> 
> *Sorry so much if I misread what you said abouy it being "very true" about you never working your dog, and just buying your dogs from breeders who work THEIR dogs!*
> 
> *So it is really great for you to work your dogs so much, and that they behave so well everywhere!*
> 
> *So you work your dogs in what? - OB, Rally, S&R, Herding, Agility, ScH, PP, Therapy, etc. - probably a lot of things.*


again, how you come to some of your conclusions is.... well I'll just say odd. Either you don't understand, won't understand, or like to give totally different meaning to a few words so they can fit your argument. Try reading the entire response again, see if you come to the same conclusion. I have a feeling YOU probably will


----------



## Jack's Dad

I believe I introduced the word think and maybe that was a mistake.

Going back to the OP, he is saying there are schutzhund titled dogs and that makes them breed worthy. Everything else are companion or pet animals who can't, won't or are incapable of being titled.

What I should have said is that I observed videos of a number of trials where many of the dogs do not seem engaged, or involved with their handlers. They seem to be going through the motions like they could do it in their sleep. This could be true in other venues also.

So to me, saying a dog is breed worthy just because of a title doesn't make any sense. It is a test that shows something for good or not so good. That's all. 

If a breeder does not know enough to put the right combination of dogs, based on genetics and other factors together then the titles won't help the offspring.
Personally I like to see dogs who seem to truly enjoy and are involved in whatever they are doing.

Anne. I think you could pick dogs who have "IT" out of a stadium full of dogs. Some people like yourself really know GSDs and then there are people like me who just observe and fiddle around on the edges trying to learn a few things.


----------



## Debbieg

I think a dog that "thinks" or has the genetic obedience is the the type of dog that can be trusted to disobey a command at times, when the dog knows or sees something the handler doesn't.

I had a GSD like that many years ago. He was so easy to train, did not need e collar, toys food. He had a confident look in his eyes, not that worried look I often see now.


----------



## cliffson1

@ Vandal(Anne), I understand exactly what you are saying as I think you understand what I am trying to say. The word "thinking" does not express the essence of what I was trying to explain, and maybe something like the genetic blueprint or obedience does. Either way, a good herding dog can be a good Sch dog to my way of thinking.


----------



## msvette2u

Oh, in rescue we get in plenty of schitzy mutts, believe me. And sick ones. The myth must still remain that mutts are healthiest, and (never heard this one) have the best nerves, and it's truly a myth.




Emoore said:


> Honestly? No. I've been in classes continuously since Feb 2011, with the exception of a 6 week break in the holidays. Every 6-8 weeks it's a different class with different dogs. And I _don't_ see mutts that are superior in intelligence and temperament. They're not any worse, but they're also not any better. I see purebreds that are shy and worried, and I see mutts that are shy and worried. I see purebreds that are confident and bold, and I see mutts that are confident and bold. The dogs I've seen that are consistently the most confident, the least worried or slinking, the boldest on different surfaces and on agility obstacles, the least concerned about wheelchairs and crutches and umbrellas and funny hats, the fastest to learn a new behavior, are a field-bred Lab, an Australian Shepherd, and my dog. Talking with the owners, what these three dogs have in common is they are all dogs that were purchased from a breeder who has an intelligent breeding program with a purpose. Neither the lab nor the Aussie nor my dog were purchased out of the newspaper for a couple hundred bucks, nor are they random-bred mutts. They were purchased by owners who did their due diligence and research before buying a dog.
> 
> Granted, this is a very small sample, but in a full year of constantly rotating classes with different dogs, I just don't see that mutts are better. Maybe Dallas mutts just suck.


----------



## codmaster

crackem said:


> again, how you come to some of your conclusions is.... well I'll just say odd. Either you* don't understand, won't understand*, or like to give totally different meaning to a few words so they can fit your argument. Try reading the entire response again, see if you come to the same conclusion. I have a feeling YOU probably will


 
Ha! Ha!


----------



## Mrs.K

There is a meet the breed coming up in this area, held by the AKC. I offered them the two girls and was told to call the organizer. He asked why I want to represent the GSD and I truthfully told him that I have gotten a lot of comments that they can't be GSD's because they are not oversized and a 100 pounds. It looks like he took offense in that. Guess what I've been told. They want to pass on my dogs because they do not represent the German Shepherd and it wouldn't be fair to Show People since they show their dogs. 

Sounds like the oversized 100 pound show dog is exactly what they want. I can't offer that... oh well...


----------



## trudy

Mrs K I really don't think most show dogs are 100 pounds, the ones I know are 80-95 pounds, my own male is 80.4 at almost 4, finally broke the 80 pounds...while he isn't shown really he is show line and his sister is a CH, and she weighs 66 pounds. Their brother is also CH and weighs 90. So your dogs were turned away not for weight. Maybe there were too many volunteers, or some other reason like others were members of a club but don't insult show dogs for that reason


----------



## Mrs.K

trudy said:


> Mrs K I really don't think most show dogs are 100 pounds, the ones I know are 80-95 pounds, my own male is 80.4 at almost 4, finally broke the 80 pounds...while he isn't shown really he is show line and his sister is a CH, and she weighs 66 pounds. Their brother is also CH and weighs 90. So your dogs were turned away not for weight. Maybe there were too many volunteers, or some other reason like others were members of a club but don't insult show dogs for that reason


That is exactly what I thought too which is why I don't understand why he took such offense in it since I wasn't talking about Showline Dogs at all. I told him that I want to help educate the public in what a GSD really is and was talking about BYB Dogs... 

This is what I got from the AKC club:


> (...)
> 
> *So....saying your dogs do not represent the Shepards in the US is true. The German standard is probably different than the American standard and this is an AKC show. We are promoting AKC dogs.*


 
If they don't want a good looking, rock solid dog.. their loss. I'm not going to represent the American Shepard...since I have actually a German Shepherd!


----------



## cliffson1

I will be so glad when the day comes that there IS an American Shepherd, and i think everyone would be happy. Nobody would bash them cause their standard could be written to reflect what they really are. Consumers would be happy getting exactly what they expect as it would reflect the softer mellow type. Breeders won't have to breed down to a softer mellow type....and the people will expect the German Shepherd to be what its legacy is and the American Shepherd what has been created in the past 50 years in ASR. Its a win win for everybody....seriously!!!


----------



## Mrs.K

cliffson1 said:


> I will be so glad when the day comes that there IS an American Shepherd, and i think everyone would be happy. Nobody would bash them cause their standard could be written to reflect what they really are. Consumers would be happy getting exactly what they expect as it would reflect the softer mellow type. Breeders won't have to breed down to a softer mellow type....and the people will expect the German Shepherd to be what its legacy is and the American Shepherd what has been created in the past 50 years in ASR. Its a win win for everybody....seriously!!!


I think people would be even happier if they got the "American Shepard". 

Seriously, 9 times out of 10 the public calls it Shepard and not Shepherd. Give them what they want.


----------



## onyx'girl

I agree Cliff, an American Shepard should be a different entity than it's German ShepHERD cousin.


----------



## Whiteshepherds

Mrs.K said:


> This is what I got from the AKC club:*So....saying your dogs do not represent the Shepards in the US is true. The German standard is probably different than the American standard and this is an AKC show. We are promoting AKC dogs.*
> If they don't want a good looking, rock solid dog.. their loss. I'm not going to represent the American Shepard...since I have actually a German Shepherd!


Mrs K, don't ever try to get a job as a diplomat. oke:

You can't blame the AKC for wanting to promote AKC dogs. I don't think you're going to see the SV promoting the AKC anytime soon either. Are you going to go to the event anyway just to see what's there?


----------



## Mrs.K

I simply can't believe that they pass down an actual German Shepherd... it's ironic on so many levels.


----------



## Mrs.K

Whiteshepherds said:


> Mrs K, don't ever try to get a job as a diplomat. oke:
> 
> You can't blame the AKC for wanting to promote AKC dogs. I don't think you're going to see the SV promoting the AKC anytime soon either. Are you going to go to the event anyway just to see what's there?


Never said I was diplomat material... but you are right. I don't have Shepards so therefor I shall not represent them.


----------



## Samba

The American breeders, in general, long ago split from the German dogs. They established their own type and goals. Not surprising at all the things that happen considering the desire to create their own and not continue the German dog as it was. My friends in American fancy sometimes like my dogs but they consider my WL dogs something else entirely and not something that they also do. 

It gets blurry when they also have dogs give an exhibition or honor the working dogs. Nothing in common in the pedigrees, breeding or purposes of breedings for eons of generations. They seem to want to claim ownership or kinship of these dogs as being their breed too. But, hehe, in the same breath I have heard some complain the breeders of German dogs are putting pups into pet homes that have no purpose being a pet seeings how those pups bite and bite and all. Or others complain that some are including German dogs in their predominantly ASL breedings and even exhibiting them!! Really it is a scene this breed.


----------



## cliffson1

So doesn't an American Shepherd make more sense then this insanity we now have. Everyone knows they have deviated from the breed. They acknowledge themselves that their product is different from the "German Shepherd". It's time to man up and create that cousin, and put everyone out of there misery, because right now it is perpetrating a fraud on the original breed and confusing people about what the standard for this breed should be. The Germans created the breed, the Germans should set the standard. You want to create something different although similar, then name it and claim it. Makes much more sense than this mess today.


----------



## Mrs.K

cliffson1 said:


> So doesn't an American Shepherd make more sense then this insanity we now have. Everyone knows they have deviated from the breed. They acknowledge themselves that their product is different from the "German Shepherd". It's time to man up and create that cousin, and put everyone out of there misery, because right now it is perpetrating a fraud on the original breed and confusing people about what the standard for this breed should be. The Germans created the breed, the Germans should set the standard. You want to create something different although similar, then name it and claim it. Makes much more sense than this mess today.


Absolutely and wholeheartedly agree with you on that. If they don't want the German dogs with the "Meet the breed" or in their shows because "they don't represent the GSD in the US" they should re-name the breed.


----------



## Samba

It makes sense to me. We have the American Cocker because of differing breeding and standard than the English Cocker, though the English Cocker was the beginning. At some point geography, differentiation, different standards mean the divergence is so large the differences can constitute a different breed. 

When I talk about my dogs, I always differentiate their lines. Why? Because of the differences.


----------



## Emoore

Would really really love to hear Daphne's take on this.


----------



## Catu

Same with the Akita and the Foxhound. I've also noticed how many breeders websites people post on this forum that say "European bloodlines". The separation seems to be already there...

It would even help the ASL to cross its own borders. Outside North America they just can't compete with the European bloodlines. If someone today tries to bring an ASL here it will be considered an ugly GSD, not only by judges, but for the public used to the black and red dog. A separate breed will be just different and can have its own niche for the people who likes the looks and the temperament, even opening a new market... think of China buying ASLs like they buy SV GSDs today!!!!


----------



## Xeph

It won't happen before I die.

People can't even agree about the White GSD being a separate breed (lord knows I don't).


----------



## Whiteshepherds

The GSDCA isn't going to change their name anytime soon, and I doubt the ASL's are going to pull out of the breed so here's a simple solution. 
Everyone who believes the "German" dogs are better than the American dogs should buy their dogs from SV breeders and not register them with the AKC. No more worrying or complaining about the AKC and the American GSD's. In a matter of years the split would be complete. Seems simple enough. If you don't like the AKC or the ASL's, go away. You have other options. (don't mean that to sound as snarky as it does)

From my vantage point the only GSD breeders who've manned up, named it AND claimed it, as Cliff said, are the people involved in AWSA and those trying to gain breed recognition for the whites in the AKC. They've tried to stop at least some of the insanity and they're trying to go away, but the GSDCA won't let them.


----------



## Xeph

Problem is, AKC won't accept the whites anyway, as they're simply a DQ from another breed.


----------



## Liesje

Mrs. K did you enter the AKC show? Or was the event not a show? If it is, I would enter with your dogs. I can see where they wouldn't necessarily want the "meet the breed" dogs to be totally different dogs than the ones actually participating (regardless of their reasoning). I guess my approach is to show people they are wrong rather than try to talk them into it. I used to bring a 50lb working line bitch to AKC events and lots of people would come over to compliment her.


----------



## Betty

Whiteshepherds said:


> The GSDCA isn't going to change their name anytime soon, and I doubt the ASL's are going to pull out of the breed so here's a simple solution.
> Everyone who believes the "German" dogs are better than the American dogs should buy their dogs from SV breeders and not register them with the AKC. No more worrying or complaining about the AKC and the American GSD's. In a matter of years the split would be complete. Seems simple enough. If you don't like the AKC or the ASL's, go away. You have other options. (don't mean that to sound as snarky as it does)


SCORE! ROFL 

It does sound a wee bit snarky but considering everything that people with American Lines have to read it's wonderfully understated.


----------



## Liesje

I would already have abandoned AKC registry except it is required for certain SV-type things, since it is the only FCI-recognized registry for the USA. By not registering my dogs I would remove many competitive opportunities that have nothing to do with the AKC. Over the last 3 years I've quit doing AKC events, I only register my dogs but we compete under UKC, WDA, USCA, SDA, CPE....


----------



## Mrs.K

Liesje said:


> I would already have abandoned AKC registry except it is required for certain SV-type things, since it is the only FCI-recognized registry for the USA. By not registering my dogs I would remove many competitive opportunities that have nothing to do with the AKC. Over the last 3 years I've quit doing AKC events, I only register my dogs but we compete under UKC, WDA, USCA, SDA, CPE....


Yeah, that is a major problem in the US. The competing part. Only doing SV things restricts you in MAJOR ways and let's face it. Not all of us have the financial possibilities to only compete under SV Judges. 

Another problem is, mine are SAR dogs. If I don't register with the AKC and I ever want to breed one of them, they are not going to get any type or forms of papers at all. They'd be unregistered dogs even though certified but unregistered and unpapered dogs. What other means than the AKC do you have?


----------



## BlackthornGSD

SV registration is not recognized for dogs in the US by the FCI. If you want your dogs to be internationally registerable/exportable/etc., you *must* use AKC in the U.S.


----------



## Mrs.K

BlackthornGSD said:


> SV registration is not recognized for dogs in the US by the FCI. If you want your dogs to be internationally registerable/exportable/etc., you *must* use AKC in the U.S.


Yeah... that doesn't leave many options other than the AKC unless you don't have any plans to go back to Germany or get them gekoered... I guess you could use UKC instead?


----------



## BlackthornGSD

Mrs.K said:


> Yeah... that doesn't leave many options other than the AKC unless you don't have any plans to go back to Germany or get them gekoered... I guess you could use UKC instead?


Nope. UKC is only good for your own recordkeeping. USCA is the same--it isn't FCI-recognized unless backed up by AKC registration.


----------



## onyx'girl

I would only register a dog w/UKC if I was participating in the events they sponsor. I almost registered Karlo with UKC but then they split with SDA so there was no reason after that.


----------



## Mrs.K

BlackthornGSD said:


> Nope. UKC is only good for your own recordkeeping. USCA is the same--it isn't FCI-recognized unless backed up by AKC registration.


Which sucks big time!


----------



## Liesje

I do UKC registration and participate in lots of UKC events (lure coursing, dock diving, conformation, previously SDA was part of UKC so tracking, obedience, protection....plus they also have obedience, rally, weight pull, terrier racing, hunting tests, ******* tests, and agility) but a UKC registration is not accepted by FCI, so my dogs are dual-registered (actually they are registered with AKC, UKC, USCA, U-Fli, CPE, and SDA/UWD, hehe, but most of those are sport registries not breed registries).

I've had to show AKC papers for SV conformation (USCA and WDA), obtaining USCA registration, a-stamps, and scorebooks. I could do Schutzhund titles without AKC papers but it would limit competition to a certain level, not that I'm assuming to be anything good but I personally don't like limiting any of my options, which is the same reason I only buy full registration.


----------

