# Rattlesnake avoidance training



## Dutchy (Jul 8, 2018)

Does anybody have any feedback regarding rattlesnake avoidance training or taught their own pup rattlesnake avoidance? When my pup gets older, I'm going to start hiking with her and eventually she will be off the leash when hiking. An encounter with a rattlesnake is likely. I'm likely going to get her the rattlesnake vaccine, but even then my Vet said they still have to be brought in for emergency and sometimes still need antivenin. Knowing how expensive that is, I think it's worth my time and money to seek out training for avoidance. 

Does anybody have any experience going to training or training their pups rattlesnake avoidance? Would using fake snakes work? Should I teach her now or should I wait until I start hiking with her? She's 15 weeks old. I probably won't start hiking with her until after a year when her hips are fully developed. 

Appreciate any advice on the topic.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Where do you live? Are there Rat Snakes where you live? Do you know someone with chickens? Sounds funny but this is how I snake proofed Inga. 

Texas Rat Snakes are good sized harmless snakes, that is, they have little hooky teeth and are non venonous. The males are hot tempered. They will bite to defend themselves.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

They go into henhouses and eat chicken eggs. They are easy to catch in a henhouse. Be aware if it is a male he will try to bite you. Get him behind the head. If he bites you just wash the place with soap and water.

When he has calmed down somewhat, call you dog over and hold the snake out to her. She will come sniff the snake. The snake will then tag her right on the nose. The snake will have a snakey smell too that the dog will never forget.

Inga got tagged on the nose and now she avoids all snakes. Thats a good thing too because there are Timber Rattlers, Cottonmounths, Copperheads and Coral snakes here.

Anyone can snake proof their dog this way. The other night Inga was going around the feedshed and suddenly shot away like she was propelled by a rocket. I went and looked and it was a (harmless) Coachwhip snake.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Range of various Rat Snakes-


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

For whatever reason last year we ran into snakes regularly, almost every hike and in some instances rattle snakes. None of my dogs ever showed any interest, zero.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I think you need to get him trained on the rattle sound as well.


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## Beau's Mom (Nov 9, 2017)

Lots of trainers offer rattlesnake avoidance training here in Tucson. Lots of people swear by it. The classes I’m familiar with use shock collars or shocks in the target ‘snake’ to freak out and/or cause pain in the dog, the idea being that then the dog will associate pain and fear with and so avoid rattlesnakes. I don’t know about that. Besides hating the idea of causing him fear and pain on purpose, I don’t know that it’s a guarantee with a strong dog. 

My girl dog had high prey drive and back east chased and caught a skunk eventually. Whew, what a stink! After that experience, she *hated* skunks, and ever after was twice as determined to kill any skunk she saw. At least once a spring she got nailed, once right in the back yard. So I figure, avoidance training could have the opposite of the intended affect. Do not want a dog who wants to kill rattlers.

I personally have relied on Beau’s very strong Leave It, and once had to use it with a rattler when he was 14 months old. So far, so good.


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## Shooter (Nov 19, 2016)

Dutchy said:


> Does anybody have any feedback regarding rattlesnake avoidance training or taught their own pup rattlesnake avoidance? When my pup gets older, I'm going to start hiking with her and eventually she will be off the leash when hiking. An encounter with a rattlesnake is likely. I'm likely going to get her the rattlesnake vaccine, but even then my Vet said they still have to be brought in for emergency and sometimes still need antivenin. Knowing how expensive that is, I think it's worth my time and money to seek out training for avoidance.
> 
> Does anybody have any experience going to training or training their pups rattlesnake avoidance? Would using fake snakes work? Should I teach her now or should I wait until I start hiking with her? She's 15 weeks old. I probably won't start hiking with her until after a year when her hips are fully developed.
> 
> Appreciate any advice on the topic.


My one experience with a rattle snake vs GSD was at night. Me and Scout were out at night back home in North Bama when we walked up on the biggest Rattle Snake Ive ever seen in my life. He was at least 5 1/2 to 6 feet long. A pure beast. I hollard at Scout as he was walking up on him and Scout jumped back as the snake struck. The snake did not get a hit but it was awful close. It was like Scout already knew (like humans know) to stay out of the way.


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## Beau's Mom (Nov 9, 2017)

Shooter, yikes, sounds scary! And very lucky for Scout.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

There are several threads in the archives that you should read -- these classes are notorious for backfiring spectacularly with some dogs (making dogs shut down in fear or get really angry when they encounter snakes -- both of which are dangerous reactions). And you'll be paying someone to really hurt your dog, as these are not little shocks these guys are using. 



Have you looked into the rattlesnake vaccine's details to get you more time (and potentially a lower dose of antivenin)? It's not a great solution, but it you are far away from vet care it might help buy time. When I last looked, it was only good for about 6 months and takes a few weeks to get peak protection. It also doesn't cover all species of pit vipers. It's a complicated decision as to whether to get it!


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## Shooter (Nov 19, 2016)

Beau's Mom said:


> Shooter, yikes, sounds scary! And very lucky for Scout.


Yessum, normally Rattlers are not out at night unless in the heat of summer, which it was. I still wasnt looking for snakes though. I lived on the side of some rocky bluffs that snakes just loved and this one was a little too close to the house


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## Beau's Mom (Nov 9, 2017)

Here some species are actually more active at night, so when we lived out in the desert I had to be on high alert for snakes any time of day April to November. Dec-March still possible to see one during freak warm spells, but much less likely - usually just too cold at night, they’re denned til it warms up. In town, I never see them.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

You might want to check with some of the hog dog people, I would assume this is a concern for them as well.

Pay close attention to everything @Magwart said. Avoidance training can go very wrong very fast and once it's done you are kind of stuck with the results. If it was me I would teach a command that means back off double time.


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## Dutchy (Jul 8, 2018)

Nurse Bishop said:


> Where do you live? Are there Rat Snakes where you live? Do you know someone with chickens? Sounds funny but this is how I snake proofed Inga.
> 
> Texas Rat Snakes are good sized harmless snakes, that is, they have little hooky teeth and are non venonous. The males are hot tempered. They will bite to defend themselves.


I live in southern California! I heard there's classes that will use harmless snakes. Maybe it's these or another type of non venemous snake. 



Nigel said:


> For whatever reason last year we ran into snakes regularly, almost every hike and in some instances rattle snakes. None of my dogs ever showed any interest, zero.


My pup doesn't have a tremendous interest in the lizards we come across, but sometimes they do peak her interest. Enough to make me think she might go up to a snake to take a sniff. 



wolfy dog said:


> I think you need to get him trained on the rattle sound as well.


They don't rattle here! I've had quite a few encounters with rattle snakes and I have never heard one rattle. Not sure why but someone once told me due to Darwinism. The loud Rattlers bring attention to themselves and have more encounters with predators. So the quiet ones are the ones surviving and reproducing. Not sure how true that is. 



Magwart said:


> There are several threads in the archives that you should read -- these classes are notorious for backfiring spectacularly with some dogs (making dogs shut down in fear or get really angry when they encounter snakes -- both of which are dangerous reactions). And you'll be paying someone to really hurt your dog, as these are not little shocks these guys are using.
> 
> Have you looked into the rattlesnake vaccine's details to get you more time (and potentially a lower dose of antivenin)? It's not a great solution, but it you are far away from vet care it might help buy time. When I last looked, it was only good for about 6 months and takes a few weeks to get peak protection. It also doesn't cover all species of pit vipers. It's a complicated decision as to whether to get it!


I think there are classes available that don't use shock. They use the leave it approach. That's why I'm glad I posted. The shock classes don't seem like the way to go. 

I talked to the vet about the vaccine, she says it's a good idea and it will protect against the western diamondback which is the most common dangerous snake we would encounter.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

One thing I would recommend is knowing what clinics stock antivenin -- it's so expensive that most do not. It's often just large emergency referral places, but your vet will know. I would put that place in your contacts -- the phone number and the address -- so that you can navigate there quickly after a snake bite. The last thing you want to do is be calling 10 different clinics asking whether they have antivenin on hand.


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## Dutchy (Jul 8, 2018)

Magwart said:


> One thing I would recommend is knowing what clinics stock antivenin -- it's so expensive that most do not. It's often just large emergency referral places, but your vet will know. I would put that place in your contacts -- the phone number and the address -- so that you can navigate there quickly after a snake bite. The last thing you want to do is be calling 10 different clinics asking whether they have antivenin on hand.


That's a good recommendation! I have 2 of the ERs and my Vet already in the phone but it would be good to know before hand which one of them stocks antivenin.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Also try to find out about rattlesnake behavior on various times of the day. We, in Western OR, hardly see them so I don't know about the Rattlers' daily schedules, but all the common (non-poisonous) snakes in our area are out later in the afternoon to soak up some heat before the night. I start seeing "our" Garter, Racers and Gopher snakes from late morning to just before dusk. I know that they are slower in colder weather and thus more likely to strike instead of fleeing. Just my 2 cents.
Hope you and the dogs will be safe and have an enjoyable hike. I think you are brave!


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## kayek9 (Aug 27, 2002)

After having 2 dogs get bit by rattlers in my own backyard, I thought it was time to train them. There's a local woman here that has been doing snake avoidance training for 40+ years with great success. All of my dogs have been trained by her, she uses live snakes in a cage with a shock collar. I can tell you it absolutely works as I have witnessed my dogs freaking out and running from rattlers after being trained. It's a scent thing for the dogs, venomous snakes put out a specific scent that the dogs, once trained, associate that scent with the pain that they felt when they smelled it. I wouldn't think about not training any new dog I get now, not that I see a lot of rattlers, but one is too many on my property in my opinion for the dogs not to be aware. In fact my daughter has a 5 month old corgi puppy that is going Saturday to be trained. It's the best $100 you can spend on your dog if you live in the desert!!


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

This snake in cage and shock collar is somewhat similar to my live snake tags dog on the nose method. I imagine a person could do this themselves using a nice tame little Ball Python. They could have the Ball Python on the floor of a building so no weird cage involved (snakes in cage not found in nature).

Antivenin is hard to find and terribly expensive, thousands of dollars per vial and it takes several vials.


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## readaboutdogs (Jul 8, 2001)

I agree with the natural avoidance of some dogs at least! We get bull snakes from time to time in the springtime. I was out mowing and watched one go across the yard and go thru the fence and the dogs just laid where they were with that nonchalant air with their head turned away! We also have had a snapping turtle get in our back yard a couple times ( I don't know how, we have 5 foot chain link but they have managed!) and they did bark, but stayed back. I was like how do I get this out of here! I keep the empty dog food sacks and recycle as trash bags, so both time I took an empty sack out, took a rake and got the turtle to go in the bag and since I didn't know what to do otherwise just took it in the front yard and left the sack on its side! They were gone when I got home from work! So I think too, some dogs at least have a natural avoidance due to the scent or something! They didn't like frogs either! They did pick up a couple of those but wasn't too interested after it peed in their mouth I think! I smell skunks from time to time but thankfully nobody has ever got sprayed!!!


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## Bella99 (Sep 4, 2017)

Taylor Made Working Dogs in San Diego offer rattle snake avoidance training.

http://taylormadeworkingdogs.com/dog-training/rattlesnake-avoidance-training/


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

If I lived where there were venomous snakes I would absolutely find a good avoidance trainer. I wish they offered the same for porcupines as I'd happily spend the $100. I tried to figure out how to hold a class myself, but mammals require all sorts of permits. 

I've trained avoidance to certain common critters (moose, deer) and have never seen bad side effects, but I was careful to do it right. Prevention is worth a pound of cure- far better to avoid a bite than risk a dog's life and have to treat for a bite. I always make sure to train the most effective, fair way possible. But nature is a harsh teacher--- far better a controlled electric shock (not even really a shock, but...) than a kick to the head and a broken skull. It really is an easy choice.


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## Dutchy (Jul 8, 2018)

kayek9 said:


> After having 2 dogs get bit by rattlers in my own backyard, I thought it was time to train them. There's a local woman here that has been doing snake avoidance training for 40+ years with great success. All of my dogs have been trained by her, she uses live snakes in a cage with a shock collar. I can tell you it absolutely works as I have witnessed my dogs freaking out and running from rattlers after being trained. It's a scent thing for the dogs, venomous snakes put out a specific scent that the dogs, once trained, associate that scent with the pain that they felt when they smelled it. I wouldn't think about not training any new dog I get now, not that I see a lot of rattlers, but one is too many on my property in my opinion for the dogs not to be aware. In fact my daughter has a 5 month old corgi puppy that is going Saturday to be trained. It's the best $100 you can spend on your dog if you live in the desert!!



Thank you for your feedback! That's very good to hear the success and that's a good point that the scent is a big deal!



Bella99 said:


> Taylor Made Working Dogs in San Diego offer rattle snake avoidance training.
> 
> http://taylormadeworkingdogs.com/dog-training/rattlesnake-avoidance-training/



Awesome, I'm going to check them out! Their page says "mature" pups usually only need training once while I guess they recommend puppies get recurrent training. I'll talk to them about it.



Muskeg said:


> If I lived where there were venomous snakes I would absolutely find a good avoidance trainer. I wish they offered the same for porcupines as I'd happily spend the $100. I tried to figure out how to hold a class myself, but mammals require all sorts of permits.
> 
> I've trained avoidance to certain common critters (moose, deer) and have never seen bad side effects, but I was careful to do it right. Prevention is worth a pound of cure- far better to avoid a bite than risk a dog's life and have to treat for a bite. I always make sure to train the most effective, fair way possible. But nature is a harsh teacher--- far better a controlled electric shock (not even really a shock, but...) than a kick to the head and a broken skull. It really is an easy choice.


Nature is indeed a harsh teacher!


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

With an e collar you can teach porcupine avoidance yourself. Out and about- see a porcupine? They usually don't run. Dog goes over there getting close- yell NO! and give them a buzz.

Inga is not allowed to critter on anything- not deer, not cattle or calves, not wild hogs, (no snakes of course), and now, not even rabbits. The other day she was sniffing around and found a young rabbit. She got it in her mouth and ran. NO! I yelled, and she dropped it. I could not believe my eyes. She dropped it on NO! and no e collar was on her. The bunny was fine. We have yet to meet a skunk, but I would use the e collar to teach avoidance of that particular striped animal.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Thing is, porcupines are out at dusk or early morning. I don't alway see the porcupine first and even when the dogs listen immediately to a recall, a swipe of the tail lands enough quills in the mouth for a trip to the vet. Been there, tried that. Now, MOST of the time, when we see a porky, the dogs back off, or I can see it in time to call them off, but occasionally not and that is where actual avoidance training would be useful. 

There are no quill-less porcupines to practice with, unfortunately. There would be plenty to capture at night, if I drove the back roads but the permits to do it right are next to impossible to secure. You can kill a porcupine on your property, no problem, but you can not keep one captive.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Pulling porcupine quills sucks, especially those that are stuck in the tongue.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Muskeg said:


> Thing is, porcupines are out at dusk or early morning. I don't alway see the porcupine first and even when the dogs listen immediately to a recall, a swipe of the tail lands enough quills in the mouth for a trip to the vet. Been there, tried that. Now, MOST of the time, when we see a porky, the dogs back off, or I can see it in time to call them off, but occasionally not and that is where actual avoidance training would be useful.
> 
> There are no quill-less porcupines to practice with, unfortunately. There would be plenty to capture at night, if I drove the back roads but the permits to do it right are next to impossible to secure. You can kill a porcupine on your property, no problem, but you can not keep one captive.


For some reason this post made me picture a bunch of naked porcupines in a makeshift prison begging to be let go. 
Do you live in Montana? They have a similar law about human trespassers. You can shoot them, but they frown on holding them alive.


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## Beau's Mom (Nov 9, 2017)

Thank you, @Sabis mom, for the naked quilless trespassers in my head. And here it is, bedtime...


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## racer (Nov 5, 2010)

this is the the class I used for several dogs
Natural Solutions K-9 Rattlesnake avoidance
also look into the rattlesnake vaccine the the rattlesnake it won't work on is a mojave green


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## goldtwh (Aug 3, 2018)

*Age for Avoidance Training*



Bella99 said:


> Taylor Made Working Dogs in San Diego offer rattle snake avoidance training.
> 
> http://taylormadeworkingdogs.com/dog-training/rattlesnake-avoidance-training/


 
What age is the youngest that you would do "Avoidance" training for snakes & do you do
"Avoidance" training for other critters, apart & aside of "leave it" training.:help: :gsdsit:


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Six months is the youngest I would train with e-collar.

I do similar type of avoidance training for moose and deer, but not quite to the same level as I would with something that is potentially instantly deadly on scent. If I lived in cattle country, same idea for cattle, but with a slightly different end in mind- neutral not panicked and running away. I don't avoidance train for bear, that is a different kettle of fish, and I want a different reaction from the dogs. Voice control works in this instance.


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## Pipper (Jul 27, 2018)

I have read a blog that a man trained his dog to bite the snack. I think that has a little risk, because we can't predict the result. If the pup is a small breed with timid characteristic, it could fear to touch a snake, not mention biting. Normally, a snake could not attack you or pup suddenly unless it suffers from a threat. I think we can avoid the snake biting rather than teach the pup to bite it. There are many relevant articles in google.


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