# Aggressive behaviour towards the family.



## Nadia (Aug 5, 2009)

Hey, this will be a long post, sorry. D=


To catch you up, I have a 10 month old male GSD - Dvash. 
He lives in a heated kennel outside, so members of the family arent with him all the time.
He is my first dog (so bare with me)
Has not been neutured. (yet)
My mum and I spend time with him the most.
Is a very dominant, alpha type dog. We have had issues with this in the past. 
He comes from a working background. His father was a police dog, and his mother was a guard dog. They had a litter by accident and he was one of the "wash out" dogs. I did not know much about bloodlines at that time...


Anyway... My family and I just came back from a 12 day holiday. We put him in a trusted, well known kennel which did some basic training with him.

When we arrived home, he was happy to go over and greet the rest of my family, however, when my mum and I were sorting out his kennel,Dvash randomly growled and lunged for my brother, who was just standing there. My mum scolded him with a shake on his scruff (fur at the back of the neck).

It gets worse. Dvash sits by the door on a mat in the garage usually, and my brother was on his way inside when Dvash stood up and bared all his teeth at him like he was ready to pounce. My brother just backed away until i got outside... 

Dvash has also barked at my younger brother for doing the same thing; being near him. I had to step in and scold Dvash.

Earlier today I was giving my older brother Dvash's food bowl. I figured if Dvash could learn to trust my brothers again, it would be ok. So I thought if they gave him his food. Bad idea.
As my brother reached out his hand, Dvash growled very loud and was staring at my brother in the eye, this was a shock to me and I'm not entirely sure what is the best correction to do when this happens. ANyway, he lunged for my brother, got him on the ankle, my brother was on the floor trying to shake him off, family came out and things got a bit hectic. 
He can't be near my brothers without trying to hurt them. It's bizarre.

hes been lying down alot since he got back from the kennel. Hes never usually this tired. Something is very different about him, not right but I really have no idea what it could be. Also, I gave him a bone which he used to LOVE. He ignored it when I gave it to him - Another sign something is very wrong... he never turns down food. 

hes fine with strangers usually but with my brothers he's ready to do some damage.

I will take him to the vets shortly but I was wondering if any of you guys had any suggestions on what I could do to help him. 

What should I do when he growls/attacks? I usually grab his collar before he lunges, say "No!" and shake his scruff but this has no effect. I heard you should turn your back on the dog when he growls, but Dvash doesnt really give us a chance. He growls then attacks right after. 

Im really worried, alot of people are saying that hes going to have to be given away if this problem isn't fixed. If only I knew why he is suddenly behaving like this. he is very protective of me and my mum, yet hates the rest of the family.

Thanks in advance, I appreciate any help.
=]


----------



## Winkin (Feb 21, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: NadiaHe lives in a heated kennel outside, so members of the family arent with him all the time.


Problem #1



> Originally Posted By: NadiaIs a very dominant, alpha type dog. We have had issues with this in the past.


Problem #2 - which is related to problem #1. You want to socialize a dog like this...not keep him in isolation outside. You can't have the best of both worlds; an outside dog + a perfectly socialized dog.



> Originally Posted By: NadiaAnyway... My family and I just came back from a 12 day holiday. We put him in a trusted, well known kennel which did some basic training with him.


Is it possible that this kennel used a lot of negative reinforcement training with him? Possibly by a male? The fact that he is lunging at your brother makes me think this is a possibility. 12 days is a long time for a dog in a different environment like that.



> Originally Posted By: NadiaIm really worried, alot of people are saying that hes going to have to be given away if this problem isn't fixed.


Not many people here are going to support you giving away a dog that has a behavioral problem that is due to a lack of training and socialization on your part.


----------



## HAROLD M (Mar 10, 2009)

i agree with winkin , he was prolly abused at the broading/training kennel a 10 month old puppy shouldnt be attacking anyone ,if u keep him away from all members of the family you will not have a socialized family pet , he will learn well looks like he already did to distrust everyone but you and your mom, i would start socializing him or take him to a trainer who deals with aggression issues and tell them exactly whats going on and why ,and how he learned to be this way...good luck he can be corrected with time and good trainer .unless you want a very aggressive anti social attack /guard dog...there is nothing wrong with your dog just he is anti social and dont trust anyone other then you and your mother ..your puppy thinks this is what is expected of him and that he is doing a good deed,,,if left seperated from the family in a kennel he grows up on his own.


----------



## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

I agree with the above two but wanted to point out negative reinforcement training is not a bad thing. It simply means you remove something (your attention if he jumps up for example) rather than add something (positive reinforcement- treats)


----------



## Winkin (Feb 21, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: LucinaI agree with the above two but wanted to point out negative reinforcement training is not a bad thing. It simply means you remove something (your attention if he jumps up for example) rather than add something (positive reinforcement- treats)


Agreed. When I said "negative reinforcement," it was a nice way of saying "borderline abused." Hit / kicked / pulled / pushed / etc.


----------



## Nadia (Aug 5, 2009)

Thanks for the replies.
I agree with you all, I really hate him living outside due to the lack of socialization but it was not my choice. My dad did not want the dog inside chewing furniture etc. Dvash has been to socialization classes when he was 4 months, and he gets on very well with dogs and with strangers usually. Which makes this situation to us even stranger.
I understand that he will always lack social skills due to his living situation. I want to change that when I move out and take him with me.

I do not want to give him away but as I still live with my parents, under their roof, its not my choice sadly









Winkin, yes the trainer he has was male. He said he used food as positive reinforcement, though I am a bit suspicous. He made him yelp when I was there which i was sure by accident when Dvash wasnt paying attention. He also said we should get him checked by the vets just for a checkup. =/
It could be the reason why hes different to my brothers. Though theres no way to find out if the trainer did use more negative reinforcement that he is not letting on. It could be anything.


----------



## Nadia (Aug 5, 2009)

Update: Went out earlier with Dvash and my brother. Started off with his long training leash just in case. He was fine, playing fetch with him. Hopefully this can continue with no growling/lunging..


----------



## Anja1Blue (Feb 27, 2008)

I agree with winkin on all the above - you have an intact (hormones could be starting to kick in) unsocialized male dog which is relegated to the outdoors (why?) instead of being treated like the family member he should be. German Shepherds NEED to be with people - they need training and boundaries as well as food and love, and to learn where their place is in the pack (at the bottom, after everyone else.) But they can't learn if they are isolated. So your first steps should be to a) enroll him in an obedience class (all family members must participate, because you must all be on the same page), and b) bring him inside where he can be part of your lives. There is nothing wrong with having him outside from time to time, but you have taken on a breed whose purpose is to be with people, and this goes back to their sheep herding ancestors - those dogs would have been with the shepherd all day long, and would have had very little time alone. Present day GSD's are no different in their need for a great deal of exercise, companionship, and mental stimulation, and you didn't mention whether this chap gets any walks, playing at the dog park, etc. Walking a dog ( a LONG walk, not just around the block) is one of the best ways to bond and establish leadership, and you can do some training along the way.....

If you don't get the situation under control - and fast - I can guarantee that it won't be just your brothers he is turning on (and they have given him a feeling of empowerment because he was able to intimidate them.) He is also going to be much too big and strong as an adult for grabbing the scruff of the neck to be viable. You have a responsibility to do whatever you can to make things right with this guy - it really isn't his fault. And "giving him up" is taking the easy way out for you, but might end up with a very bad outcome for him, being passed from home to home or euthanized because of aggression.

_____________________________________________

Susan

Anja GSD
Conor GSD - adopted from this Board
Blue GSD - waiting at the Bridge


----------



## Nadia (Aug 5, 2009)

Anja1Blue, thanks for the reply. As I said before, it is not my choice to have him inside. I know GSD are suppose to be with the family but as long as my dad is alive, that isn't happening in this house unfortantley and there's nothing I can do to change that. His living situation is the one thing that saddens me the most about him. 

And yes, I do take him for walks. Not walks around the block either. A 50 minute long walk at th emoment. Of course I take him to the park too. I know this is very important for him to at least be socialble with other dogs and strangers, which mind you, he is very good at. He's also trained daily for 20 minutes. I know he still has *alot* of training to get through yet and I certainly plan on keeping it up.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: Winkin
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: LucinaI agree with the above two but wanted to point out negative reinforcement training is not a bad thing. It simply means you remove something (your attention if he jumps up for example) rather than add something (positive reinforcement- treats)
> ...


Winkin, I think the term you're looking for is "positive punishment". In this case, (operant conditioning) positive means something is added, negative means something is removed, as Lucina explained. But actually, negative reinforcement is taking away something bad, (like an aversive), if you want to take away something good it's "negative punishment".









I find all that very difficult to remember, it's much easier for me to just do it than it is to remember what to call whatever it is I'm doing, lol!


----------



## jake (Sep 11, 2004)

I just wonder if this might be some kind of fear aggression.Since you and mom are closest to dog and he is fine with you this would be most likely.You should work on giving him new experiences and praising when he does well.Fear aggression can be tough-in the short term would have him evaluated by behaviorist if you can afford it.I would go slow in forcing interaction with ANY person your dog has shown aggression toward.If it is fear aggression there is chance that if dog is given either positive/negative / or even NILF by someone he fears he might bite.Maybe this dog needs confidence building rather than controlling dominance that may NOT even be there


----------



## Winkin (Feb 21, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomWinkin, I think the term you're looking for is "positive punishment". In this case, (operant conditioning) positive means something is added, negative means something is removed, as Lucina explained. But actually, negative reinforcement is taking away something bad, (like an aversive), if you want to take away something good it's "negative punishment".
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ah, thank you for the correction. I was posting from work towards the end of my work day - my mind was obviously not working too well


----------



## nbkvig2 (Aug 5, 2009)

Hi there, this problem is very interesting and I'd like to take a shot at it. I would recommend going back to the kennel and asking what type of training was done and who was handling Dvash, and talk to them about it as well. Definitely bring up the problem with Dvash to the kennel and see if they could help you finding the root of the issue. Nevertheless, 10 month is stressful age in any breed, many are testing their boundaries around that age and a sudden change in environment usually triggers these type of responses. I stated in one of my other posts that this happened to me when I took my husky on a vacation, change in environment, and our husky was 6 month old at that time. it was the first time he Growled at me which followed by a bite. 

It is very tough to tackle a problem like this when his socialization with family is limited. Im not trying to judge but I just wanna inform that interacting with family is key issue here. But to be honest, I know its a serious issue, but these type of stuff happens all the time with puppies. You should'nt feel stressed, because your not alone. I would recommend having your brothers walk him, try it with a muzzle at first so it is safe for your brothers. He just needs to be used to the presence of other family members that do not usually handle him. 

I would NOT have your brothers feed him at this point, it would make situation worst. Food is a VERY IMPORTANT factor you wanna control in a dog's lifestyle, but you want it to be a positive experience not negative. All the training and interactions your brother will be doing with your dog has to be positive. 

Your brothers will probably face obstacles even when Dvash is on a muzzle. You wanna redirect his attention and focus on something else. If it is a calm situation and he does not protest, give him treat and affection. But if he starts to protest or what not, try to redirect his attention by jogging or riding a bike perhaps instead of walking. It will make him focus on something else. It will calm him down more as well, afterwards, give him treat and affection. If you and Dvash is in a room and your brothers needs to come in, you wanna make sure your in control. Timing is the key here, pay attention to your dog's movement and body language, you wanna get in there BEFORE he puts up his guard or sees your brother as a threat. for example your brother comes in, you immediately make a sound and call your dog toward you (having a leash will help because you can lightly tug on the leash and have your dog go to you followed by a treat). 

Sorry about the long post, hope it helps. Key point is to introduce training, socialize him with other family members, and focus his attention on positive things so he does not have to put up his guard. You have to be consistent with these types of trainings. Good luck, if there is anything you don't understand, feel free to private message me.


----------



## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

Great advice here from everyone, not sure I can add to it but I do agree that a GSD should never be kept outside, I can't even imagine how Lulu would be if she was, she wants to be around us all the time and is only good outside for 10 mins at a time tops. 

That said, I saw an episode of "It's me or the dog" (on discovery chanell, good show) with Victoria Stilwell where they had a GSD who loved the mom but was very agressive towards her husband. There was a lot of training done in the show but one thing she did was have the dad be more assertive with the dog and also have him feed the dog every night (where she previously did). With his dinner bowl, not by hand. 

What she was doing was trying to build the alpha/respect thing in the dog for the dad and in the show it worked pretty quickly!

I don't know, it seems what may be happening is that you spend a lot of time walking and being with him but the rest of his experience is outside alone so all he knows is you and may have a fear aggression to everyone else (besides your mom). 

I don't think it's a good idea to get any dog that you know will have to live it's life outside, heated kennell or not, but you obviously love your dog and are doing all you can to correct the situation. I guess my advice might be to have the rest of the family spend time with him as much as possible with positive reinforcement (treats).

I'll tell my story here of just how I first fell in love with the GSD. I was maybe 11 and used to walk to middle school, along the way there was a GSD that obviously was a guard dog and lived outside. It was SO mean, would run by the fence and try to attack the kids as they walked by, we named him "mean doggie". He was seriously vicious! So, being a kid, and always a dog lover, I wanted to make friends with him. (keep in mind, I was a kid, I wouldn't want anyone feeding my GSD either, but in my young mind that was how I thought he would come to like me). So every day on the way to school I would bring a treat for him, a beef stick or some small treat and would stop at his fence as he tried to attack me, snarling and barking and throw him the treat, I did this for a few weeks every single morning and after school. After a few weeks he stopped snarling and barking at only me (went off again after I left his sidewalk). I'll make the story shorter than it is by saying within a month, he would run up to the fence and jump up with tongue lolling and smile in his eyes and I would pet him and kiss his nose and scratch his ears (and of course, give him his treat







) . I never forgot that dog as it was sort of like the story of the little prince and the fox 

http://wolfweb.unr.edu/homepage/shubinsk/fox.html

This story has taught me a lot in life and is very wise









Not sure if there is a lesson in there for you or your brother or not


----------



## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: StarryNiteI do agree that a GSD should never be kept outside, I can't even imagine how Lulu would be if she was, she wants to be around us all the time and is only good outside for 10 mins at a time tops.


A GSD can be kept outside and be a healthy (mentally and physically), happy, well adjusted member of the family. It's just a LOT harder. The time commitment is massive. When you have a dog live with you in your home, you are spending time with them any time you're home. Shaping behavior, developing manners, socializing them with all you come into contact with, etc. If the dog is outside, you need to spend HOURS of each day exercising both mind and body or else the dog will literally go nuts and best case develop all kinds of compulsive behavior. Worst case they will start to lose it and detach and find all kinds of other things to keep them busy.


----------



## Nadia (Aug 5, 2009)

Hey, great advice here. Thanks all. 
Doby, I shall get my brothers to walk Dvash now. It makes sense to get them to do more things with him. I never thought about correcting the behaviour *before* he does it, only when hes actually done it. He's certainly wary around my brother so I shall use distractions and positive reinforcement as you said








StarryNite, that story about the guard dog put a smile on my face. Just goes to show it takes time and something positive (nice food!) to slowly get a dog to trust you. 

It's definatley alot harder to keep a GSD happy living outside, as ZeusGSD said. Most of my energy goes into doing stuff with him so I never actually get a time to sit down and be lazy anymore. Heh.  I just wonder what it will be like when I go off to university. I'll deal with that when it comes though.

Im feeling hopeful now, thanks guys!


----------

