# Progress report? Caesar, 14 weeks, 90% Raw diet, ears coming up, weight and progress.



## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

Hello Friends,

Thought I would give a progress report on Caesar. Black Working Dog type, not as big as I had hoped, but very smart... Brag brag brag... Smartest dog I have owned at 61... I really feel blessed, he is not a huge dog, but very smart and very good company, being a Director I even take him to work every day. I really do feel Blessed...

14 weeks, 18 kg, 39.7 lbs, ears coming up, Barks a big dog bark, protective, tries to herd cattle, sits, stays for 10 seconds, and fetches nearly 100%.. 

Gift for You: For any of you that are having trouble with the STAY part, here is a very good training method.. He wants out of his cage, tell him to SIT. When he does, tell him to STAY as you go to open the cage. If he moves, close the cage in his face and start all over. This works very well, and after a days of this, he will sit and stay, and you hold the door open for extended counts 10 sec, 15 sec and so on.. Then when you say OK or a free command, give him a big love up and rub all over.. This carries over to going outside, or coming in, or getting food, make him sit and wait for your command OK!!

Anyways, that is my gift to you, and here is the Pup, my new best Mate:



















*And here is a favorite, the stage when their ears are propped up against each other....*










Kind regards from Australia


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

He is 14 weeks old and almost 40 lbs. He will be a decent sized dog.


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## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

I don't know where I saw it, but someone was saying Vets rule of thumb was 14 weeks weight X 2 plus 10 lbs...

That puts him at sort of 10 -15 lbs over Show Dog sort, but he is bigger boned and a Working Dog. So I guess that is about right Rob? Show Dog male 75-80? And on this figure he would be 90?

It seems to me, that he is bigger and smarter than my two Show Dog black and tan GSDs, but I cannot be sure as it is hard to remember that timing??? That was 7 and 10 years ago... :wild::help:

Thanks for any feedback.. There just is no GSD puppy club here on this little island.. heh he..


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## bianca (Mar 28, 2010)

He is gorgeous! My black working line boy was 11.2kgs at 14 weeks.


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## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

Hello Bianca,

I sent a copy of this Post to my Breeder... She says that rule of thumb the Vets put out, does not work with our Working Dog types, completely out the window.. In fact, it is all over the place. The biggest Working Dog type I have personally met is Sarge, a 120 pounder... He is a fantastic Shutzhund training type, so big the female cannot stand to be bred and they do Artificial Insemination.. :wild: 

Anyway, She calls it "Weight for age" in kilos, as in 14 weeks and 14 kg. Caesar is of a smaller bloodline Sire and Sarge was only 14 kg at 14 weeks.. Here is her comments on the so call formulae of 14 weeks x 2 plus 10 pounds.. I am no longer going to be concerned about it, as odd ones fall above and below the line.. She wrote me: 

**********************************************************************
I don’t go along with that method of calculation – Sarge was 24kg at 20 weeks & so is Heidi (my female at Bens). There is no way Heidi will end up as heavy as Sarge – and he was weight for age until about 18 weeks – so 14 weeks was approx 14 kg. He is now about 48kg. he was 50kg but I trimmed him down a bit because we have started him back at training and he was a little heavy. 

Heidi’s parents: Mum 38kg & Dad 40kg. (average female is 30kg) and average show male 38-40kg). I estimate from how she looks that Heidi will be a bigger dog than mum and will finish up about 40kg, which is very big for a bitch. Her brother Gus in Vanuatu is 25kg and Roxy – who at 14 weeks was 14 kg & 16kg at 16 weeks, is only 20kg.

Caesar & Oliver’s parents: Rebel 38kg (in lean condition), Dad 45kg at 2 years – not fully mature & very lean (look at the pic I sent you of him running). I think that Caesar is going really well for size if he is 18kg already. Going by those calculations below – Sarge would never have made it to 48kg – so they can’t be 100% correct all the time – maybe with show dogs – who tend to grow faster and mature earlier?

******************************************************************8

Anyway, I am no longer concerned so much, She does conclude from 20 years of breeding that diet and exercise does play a part, but some develop earlier and some later.. 

Just enjoy the pup, I say..!


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## bianca (Mar 28, 2010)

I totally agree, enjoy the pup! I hope you keep updating with pics please 

My boy is coming up 16 months and I have kept him at 32 kgs for months. He is very lean as he will be having hip replacement surgery.


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## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

Wow Bianca,

That is a Testimate of Love, total hip replacement at 16 months :wild: You really do love him, :wub: most would not do such extremes.. I don't know about there in the U.S. but here in Australia it would be $ thousands and months of recovery and rehabilitation!

I wish you well, and good luck with that... 
Kind regards, lone Ranger


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Luther was 10kg at 8weeks when I got him and I can't remember what he was at 14 weeks.....it was probably around 18kg by then too....he is a bit over 45 kg (super fit and lean) now so bigger than he probably should be ( his parents were both well within the standard) so you could have a big boy on your hands.....he is cute either way!!!


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## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

WOW, that is GREAT Sparra.... I hope my Boy gets that big...

What are you feeding him Sparra? I think you are the one that put me on to Nutro, and my boy likes it. Caesar is on about 90% raw diet, supplemented with about 10% Nutro. 

On all Raw diet, my Breeder has his brother, that was a little smaller pup and smaller boned and he is 19.4 kg.  I have been battling with Caesar being a bit of a picky eater, probably all my fault for offering him mid day snacks, but today I took him up to a proper scale at the Vets and he is actually down to 17.7 kg. That could just be because I am putting him back on a regiment of morning and night feed only and no snacks, and he will catch up. Or it could be that my Breeder is offering a lot better range of food on Raw. She says: : He gets no kibble at all – plenty of chicken frames, thighs & wings (skin on, bone in), raw meaty beef neck bones, kidneys, hearts, offal & lamb flap whole & minced. Liver dry treats only. that is all.

Sparra, you have done well, what are you feeding??? Kind regards from the Sunshine Coast... Qld. Australia


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## bianca (Mar 28, 2010)

Thank you Lone Ranger  Yep I do love my goofy boy very much! I'm in Victoria (used to be Sunshine Coast too!) and it is approx $6500 each side.


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## Suka (Apr 9, 2004)

45kg is about 100lbs sooo isn't that about 20 lbs heavier than you would want a working dog? I mean for working, these dogs have got to be fast and agile... I don't have a working line and he was 45kg at maturity - really quite too big for anything requiring agility, speed and jumping around.


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## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

bianca said:


> Thank you Lone Ranger  Yep I do love my goofy boy very much! I'm in Victoria (used to be Sunshine Coast too!) and it is approx $6500 each side.


Wow Bianca, I am very impressed. What a Testament of Love. It sounds that you, like myself, have been Blessed financially, and it is wonderful that we can do such things out of love for our animals. I have brought my 10 year old back from the brink, with the RAW Meat diet, and he is responding fantastically. I have a Testimonial in the RAW/ BARF feeding section. I considered joint replacement for him at 10, but the Vet talked me out of it on the basis of too hard on him in lengthy rehabilitation. I have him on two anti-inflamatory joint medicines, and the rest of his health problems were fixed on Raw meat and bone diet. He is doing magic so far, maybe I have given him a couple more years to train the pup up..

*SUKA, *Thank you, but I must admit the working dog and herding part is rare and only maybe 2% for pushing my cattle through a gate or something. His real job is keeping away stray dogs or dingos from calves of my small Organic Beef breeding herd. A large presence has meant that my senior GSD 10 year old has never been challenged. He is about 2" over Show Standard maximums on height and with his big bark, has never been put to the test. One look and they take off, and don't come back.. :wild:

Suka, further to that, the dominant use is PPD. I will train up my new pup to a dependable level of Personal Protection Dog. In my experience the more trained they are, the less likely they are to do any random act of aggression. Further, the larger, the more intimidating, the less likely they are to be put to the test. In the remote regions of the Outback, it is comforting to have a large presence of a couple of GSDs along sitting around the fire at night. When I am off with the horses for a few hours, no one would attempt to enter the back of my horse float with a large GSD chained up in there either... heh he... I train them to be very protective of my large Rig.. That is the dominant reasons for "Working Dog" for me. Maybe Tracking, Shutzhund, a little.... But Livestock protection and PPD, and size matters!

Kind regards and thank you for your comments... lone Ranger, dancing with wolves and horses out on the Last Frontier..


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## Suka (Apr 9, 2004)

Ranger - Ohhhhh ! :rose: You live so romantically.


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## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

Suka said:


> Ranger - Ohhhhh ! :rose: You live so romantically.


Hello Suka, I don't know if you are just kidding or what... If I take it seriously, I would say that yes, I left America 25 years ago to raise my Children in a safe environment that was uncrowded... Now with them off on their own, I live as close to "Dances with Wolves" in Australia as I can. I compete Reining Horses in the NRHA, and am on the road a bit. Sooo, these dogs have a real working purpose. Why so large is because it is as close to wolves as is practical, and they are the smartest. My small 14 organic gourmet beef have a few calves a year, and the dogs presence also keeps strays and dingos away.

As to romantic, if you live in Chicago the land of 500 murders a year, it might seem so. But my life is a voluntary step back in time, that is constant work. To me, on the land, it is a passion and not work. But to someone coming from the comforts of the city, 30 acres, 18 stables, dogs and horses, trucks and tractors, might seem like work. To me it is Lifestyle, and there are not enough hours in the day.... Ever..

Anyway, my GSDs are the smartest dog to work in this capacity, personality, presence, and they have a job to do. So I Dance with Wolves in the Outback... I miss some things in America, so went back last July for Cheyenne Frontier Days, and in January to see the Wolves by Arctic Snow Cat and Snowmobile in Yellowstone National Park dead of winter... But in general America has gone too far left and too overcrowded for me... heh he

*Back on Topic, Caesar is powering on.* I am going back to mostly the Raw Diet. It could be just chance or genetics or a growth spurt, but Caesars littler mate that was smaller and smaller boned, is 19.4 kg where Caesar has dropped back to 17.7 kg this week, picky on his food. I need to alternate the diet a bit and not give a wide selection with every meal. Chicken one day, beef and bone and organ meat another day, and so on.. The Owner of Ollie, is a purist of Raw, and the smaller pup is doing better, probably my fault. I am going away from the kibble, just in case it is the cause. A 1.7 kg difference, could be chance and will reverse, or the pure Raw diet may just be better... We will see. 

Kind regards, out on the Last Frontier...


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## Suka (Apr 9, 2004)

Ranger you have no idea how serious I am. When I read your epiphanic post, I practically swooned. I was in love with the movie "The man from Snowy River" when i was little. The idea of "living off the grid" so to speak, seems to be a supernal existence in my mind and one that I would appreciate every day in your shoes... and you do seem to!

p.s. the annual murder rate disturbs me on the same level as the "throw away attitude" of the average person in this country. people have fallen so far from the source and become so disengaged from food sources, power sources, and from each other as basic human beings that it's appalling. 

p.p.s. need some help?


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Suka - well my dog is what he is. He is very lean so if I was to knock 20lb of him so he can "fit" the standard he would not be walking 
My dog does work on our farm.....we live on a remote farm in Australia where we run sheep. He can be out all day and doesn't miss a beat so his size doesn't seem to hinder him.....I don't care about agility as I don't do it....he would be too big probably but I don't care. He has a wonderful temperament, solid rock nerves, can be worked around 1,000 sheep at a time and is a dream with my children so SIZE is the least of my concerns.

LoneRanger - I feed the dreaded Royal Canin but as you know it is one of the best on the Aussie market......our dogs thrive on it and look amazing.....I just can't be bothered with the whole RAW thing.....I think you do well as Like me it would not be easy to source product where you are at a reasonable price anyway.
I think you and I do live THE LIFE......I see so much horrible stuff in the world and treasure our existence here on the land away from it all......our children are very blessed to grow up here.


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## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

Sparra,
I would love to see your GSD working... Maybe could you email me a picture?

Look, Royal Canin smells good to me, I have it, and two others, and I may progress back to dry kibble supplemented by raw, as it is so bloody easy... For now, since I am on the land like you, here is how I manage the Raw Diet:

I may be at an advantage slaughtering my own beef... But here is what I have worked out in a routine over the past five weeks:

I have packaged the beef and bone and small amount of organ meat in about two pound packages, and it is in freezers. I slaughter it and do it in bulk, but you could buy it in and segregate it in packets the same way. One chest freezer is meat alone, one is beef and bone. I take out what I want the day before and let it thaw. I learned the hard way to put it in plastic bags, but also wrap it in the butcher paper or the bags stick together in a lump... 

I have one of the little esky type lunch boxes with the folding handle. I put the meat in there when thawed, and in the fridge. Usually I thaw two packs at a time as I feed two adult GSDs and the puppy. I alternate with lamb once a week and chicken once a week, which I buy in a half or dozen packs at a time and freeze. I also buy in brisket bones for the pup, chewy cartiledge. On the lamb I get like a boned cartiledge steak, so there is soft bone to chew on, and the raw chicken in carcasses, again for the bone...I wish we lived closer, as I could trade you beef for lamb.. 2,200 kms away is a bit far, and change of plans I am not going to the Melbourne Caravan Show next month, so that is out the window... heh he..

Anyway I try to thaw a days worth ahead, and wash the lunch box every other day or two. It is a lot of hassle, but I think the raw diet has saved my 10 year old and have a Testimonial on it. Further, overall it HAS to be healthier due to substandard fillers in the dry kibble.

I hope this is a help.. Kind regards, lone Ranger in Queensland


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## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

Hello fello Shepherd Lovers.... :wub:

Wolf Caesar, my new Alpha Dog Candidate for about two years from now... 20 kg at 16 weeks now, is posing for the GSD Goofiest Dogface award... :rofl::wub: Still on the Raw, with a little kibble, still looking a bit lean, but definitely the goofyest face so far... heh he

Here being a bit submissive to my current 10 y.o. Alpha Male Cody, at about 38 kg... Caesar may never take over, but from my experience Cody will step down if he is still with us, when Caesar his maturity..


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## irickchad (Feb 6, 2013)

Definitely a goofy face, haha. He's a great looking boy.


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## bianca (Mar 28, 2010)

Love it! They really can be the goofiest of dogs


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## Mooch (May 23, 2012)

Oh Lone ranger he's gorgeous  He will be a big boy when he grows up  
My Hex put on about 1kg a week at that age and it cause him so much trouble - he had elbow surgery at 4 month old because he grew so fast his elbow growth plate didn't fuse. (lol no financial blessing here, just a big re-draw on the home loan  )
He's now 13month old and weighs 37kg - he's way way taller and longer than my female.

I'm feeding raw/kibble - never had any issues so far  My dogs LOOOOOVE brisket bones 
Keep the pictures coming  Maybe you could sneak in some of your horses too??


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## Mooch (May 23, 2012)

Ok just went back through our puppy records - Hex was 18.9kg at 15 weeks


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## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

Hello Friends and GSD Lovers :wub:

Wolf Caesar is now over 18 weeks, just over 52-53 lbs, a little bit lean for my taste but he is 23" tall at top of withers, and next Saturday at 19 weeks old.. I do not know how that fits the scale, he is probably at the top end of the Show Dog scale. Not going to be huge..

What I have settled on, is a mix of the raw and kibble. I put in the raw, maybe 75% Raw, and a handful of kibble. There seems to be a balance there, and I feel better about the overall nutrution. I suppose I am just hedging my bet so to speak, and I do value RAW best of ALL, but I am also supplementing with kibble, the Nutro Natural chicken and rice Large Dog Breed Puppy mix. A young puppy seems to have problems with the mix for the different digestive rates, but older now at 19 weeks and he has no problem with the mix..

Some days he goes more for the meat, some days more for the kibble, but most days now he eats the mix altogether..  I think I have found my balance and when on the road of forget to defrost, he will get the high grade kibble. Nutro all Natural is what I am using right now..

Good luck with your Puppy Loves... Here is Wolf Caesar at 18 weeks 23-24 kg, now tussling with a 35 kg Bitch (Tonka) he is starting to hold his own at about 23 kg and bowl her over now and then.. :hug:

Kind regards from the Wolf Pack in Australia


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

nice pics, i have always been confused about the RAW kibble mix as having a bet each way, as i understand the kibble is only considered nutrionally balanced when it is THE source of food with maybe RAW as treats. hence mixing the two to cover yrself which was my intial strategy apparently can be counter-productive and give the dog the worst of both worlds not the best? would appreciatte of anyone can expand on this. sorry if this is OT.


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## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

I am doing a long term study, of two litter mate sibblings of two bloodlines. Both myself and the Purist Raw Breeder of Caesar, have litter mates, two males of Caesars bloodlines and now two females of a Police GSD Bloodlines for Breeding. Hers are Raw Purist, mine is maybe 75% Raw with a little kibble for interest. This Topic is in the PUPPIES/RAW DIET part of the Puppy Forum...

The Kibble is the best Natural I can buy. 100% Raw is inconvenient at times, and I feel I want to have the kibble as a back up. So far her RAW litter Mate is larger, by a little. Mine is waaaaay above average on training, heels, off leash, recalls, sits, stays out of sight, lays down, and knows some spanish commands of Its OK, Leave it, and so on... 

My feeling is Kibble is not the way to go for longevity, possibly too high of growth rate too fast, and some of the fillers are allergenic and causes problems. However the Nutro Natural, the best I can find, is dried chicken meat and rice for first and second ingredients. My feeling is RAW is best, but my puppy is a bit too lean, so I add in a little kibble and for one reason or another he eats more.

Forget to defrost, forget the meat in my truck fridge, forget and on the road? And there is a snap container of that Nutro Puppy Chow in there. Overall though, I am 75-80% RAW...

Hope this is a help.. lone Ranger


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