# Could positive reinforcement be reinforcing bad behavior?



## NINADOG (Oct 3, 2014)

I'm a big fan of (primarily) positive reinforcement training especially with the use of verbal markers. My newest GSD pup who's 12 mos old now has been trained this way from day one as have all my other dogs. Puppy is extremely smart though very independent and implusive ,very high energy and tough.Bad behaviors such as putting feet on the table, jumping, demanding attention, etc. she will stop when asked(then told 'yes' and rewarded) BUT she now seems to also be intentional engaging in these unwanted behaviors over and over again simply because she knows she'll be given a reward as the end result of doing that behavior. I do use a prong collar on her for walks and have had to resort to using harsh collar corrections to have her "down and stay" in the house to stop her from tormenting my senior male as he will only tolerate it for so long. She finally got the hint' that I was serious and she's gotten very compliant with that command. She isn't the least bit intimidated by a collar correction in general, so they have to be given pretty harsh which I honestly feel bad about. Has anyone else had the problem with what seems to be reinforcing a bad behavior by using positive reinforcement/rewards? Her basic obedience training with marker training/rewards is coming along great.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Yeah. You are being very unclear. If a dog jumps on me I will not tell it no and then soon as its feet are touching the ground mark and reward. What got rewarded? The dog coming off your legs. What must the dog do to come off your legs to get the reward? Jump on you. 

Think about this.

A honey badger will endure hundreds of bee stings to get to the honey in a beehive. Why? Because there was something gained by doing it and it was reinforcing. 

Figure the rest out on your own.

Ask yourself these questions though

What does my dog want when it performs these actions?

Are my actions unintentionally giving the dog what it wants?

How can I take the incentive out of the behavior for the dog?


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

I guess your case suggests yes, +R can reinforce bad behavior.

Look at a dog jumping on some one. They get giddy and rub the dog and say good boy, and think the dog loves them.

That is +R reinforcing bad behavior. 

Theoretically you practice -R by saying no, a correction, and the dog stops unwanted behavior. 

What you should do then is ask the dog to preform something else and only reward then, or simply back up your no with, no more fun and dog go to your place and relax instead.

Article on corrections, and the 4 quadrants of +-reinforcement and +-punishment

Dog Training Corrections are one of the most controversial issues for Dog Owners

Don't escalate the correction if the dog is getting desensitized to it, as it is not working and can be a source of frustration to you. Then you can make mistakes. Realize it isn't working and try another way, or work on you delivery of correction and timing. Verbal correction communication is sufficient for me with my dogs in the home. They know I mean it.

Prong might help you out. How to fit and use correctly with Tyler Muto

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nibaQnS44FE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85r03U5WPV8


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

No and a correction in that example is positive punishment not negative reinforcement. The idea is the behavior is weakened through the addition of an aversive.

Escalating a correction is EXACTLY what you do when a dog is becoming desensitized to it. If you are punishing correctly the dog should stop the behavior before it ever develops a desensitization to it. If it is clear a social component eventually takes over anyway and escalation is no longer necessary.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

You sure, the no/asking to stop is the correction, behavior stopped in the ops case when he said no, but then after he treated the dog.



> Bad behaviors such as putting feet on the table, jumping, demanding attention, etc. she will stop when asked


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> Escalating a correction is EXACTLY what you do when a dog is becoming desensitized to it. If you are punishing correctly the dog should stop the behavior before it ever develops a desensitization to it.





> She finally got the hint' that I was serious and she's gotten very compliant with that command. She isn't the least bit intimidated by a collar correction in general, *so they have to be given pretty harsh* which I honestly feel bad about.


Maybe you will escalate if the dog isn't responding, as you know the correct way to apply correction and how to counter act if dog gets desensitized or superstitious.

Personally I'd rather see someone, learn about what options are available and figure out petty house hold behaviors in sensible manner, with out escalating a leash pop which can be counter productive. It is the wrong correction in this case imo.


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## CroMacster (Oct 23, 2013)

MadLab said:


> You sure, the no/asking to stop is the correction, behavior stopped in the ops case when he said no, but then after he treated the dog.


In this case I don't believe the no/asking to stop can be considered a correction. It's merely another command that the dog gets rewarded for.

If you want to use +R in situations like these, you need to reward the dog before he does the behavior. ie he might be thinking of jumping up, but you reward before he has a chance to jump up. Teaching how great it is the have four on the floor. Then if he jumps up you simply push him off and ignore him.

It might take a a few weeks to break the cycle that he's learned.


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## kaslkaos (Jan 15, 2003)

If you can apply the +r before the behaviour, you might successfully train a different behaviour. In other words, dog looks at table to jump up, you say off, or whatever, dog doesn't jump up & collects treat. So at worst, dog learns to do interesting tricks with his/her head. But you can't be on the ball all the time, so you get what's happening now.
She reminds me soooo much of my Dynamo when we got her; she would drive our senior dog nuts if allowed too.
For seriously important stuff, I'd quit 'asking' and make sure you can back that up (sounds like you already know how), and keep on using plenty of +r training for everything that applies.
Where I'm coming from is this: Dynamo had high prey drive for our cats. We tried purely positive training, redirection, and while it seemed to be working her level of excitement ramped up, not down, and while she understood that obeying meant yummy things, she clearly considered the cats her eventual reward. So we eventually switched tactics in regards to the cats (prong) and she quickly learned not to do that. She turned to be VERY good with cats. We also never stopped all the +r training, but had notable exceptions.
Some very good advice here too.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

MadLab said:


> You sure, the no/asking to stop is the correction, behavior stopped in the ops case when he said no, but then after he treated the dog.


What the OP is doing isnt a correction its a signal to perform the behavior of coming off the leg or table which was what was being marked and positively reinforced. The problem was in order to perform the behavior of coming off it had to get on in the first place so in effect the dog is being positively reinforced for the act of getting on in the first place.

Your example is different from the OP as far as I understood it.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Think about this. If i dont want you to speak english the best way to do that isnt to teach you french. Sure you know french now too but why would that stop you from speaking english? To successfully get you to stop speaking english i have to punish you for speaking english somehow.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> The problem was in order to perform the behavior of coming off it had to get on in the first place so in effect the dog is being positively reinforced for the act of getting on in the first place.


I agree. I mistook the dog responding to the no as responding to a correction rather than it being the marker for the reward or a point in the pattern of behavior.

But if dog gets a strict no and stops behavior; that's positive punishment not negative reinforcement. Is this correct? I wasn't sure on this initially.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

It depends it is only considered punishment if it was reducing the frequency of the behavior reoccuring. In order to be considered true punishment it has to reduce frequency of behavior. In order to be considered true reinforcement it had to increase frequency of behavior. Since the problem seems to be getting worse and not better we can safely assume the no is not punishing. A verbal no without actual physical aversive accompanying it is usually not punishing. The social pressure might be enough to interupt a behavior in progress but there is a difference between interupting a behavior and punishing it.

All punishers are interupters 
Not all interupters are punishing.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

whats a good source for info on operant conditioning, book / website??


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Best book ive ever seen with it in regards to dog training is a book called Excel-erated learning by pamela j. Reid


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Guess the ops case comes under 
*



Behavioral sequences: conditioned reinforcement and chaining

Click to expand...

*from a behavioral science point of view


*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning
*


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

One can abuse any training method. 

Yours is an example of abusing positive reinforcement. And yes, it can increase negative behaviors. 

Any training method will get results if the command is clear and the timing of the communication/reinforcement is good. 

Treats should be weaned away for ordinary behaviors anyway. As some people use treats to load a clicker, I use them with puppies to load my praise. Then we wean to just praise, and the treats are only used occasionally, when training new things. Usually I train new things without treats. 

If a dog learns that if he jumps onto the counter, gets a cue from you, and he jumps off, he will then get a treat, of course he is going to learn to solicit treats from you. He is unlikely to connect all of those dots just for a "Yes! Good Boy!!!"

Evenso, I usually tell my dogs, Eh! what are you doing?! They remove their paws from the table, and I say, Thank You. This marks the behavior I want, without being blatant praise. Occasionally, I say thank you in training classes, but it is usually after the dog does something he should have done, but hesitated. 

I will tell a dog, get out of the flowers, when we are walking and they want to go into a mulched area, and if they move closer to me, away from the mulch/flowered area, I say Thank You. It is polite praise. Not exactly party time, boy you did something spectacular praise. It is praise that says, now you are doing the right thing.


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## NINADOG (Oct 3, 2014)

Baillif said:


> What the OP is doing isnt a correction its a signal to perform the behavior of coming off the leg or table which was what was being marked and positively reinforced. The problem was in order to perform the behavior of coming off it had to get on in the first place so in effect the dog is being positively reinforced for the act of getting on in the first place.
> 
> Your example is differrent from the OP as far as I understood it.


Yes Baillif this is just what I was wondering if I'm doing. . . I've been trying to use as much +R as I can since her tolerance to prong collar corrections is very high and she goes into overdrive and thinks it's playtime when I give corrections. So I do have to escalate the severity of them to the point I'm feeling abusive to her. (and the collar is correctly placed on her neck) I've not had a dog who brushes off prong collar corrections as she does. Does anyone think an E Collar would be a better alternative to the prong.

+R works very well in her obed training as well as for her leash reactivity to other dogs... But guess I've not got the sequence down correctly in trying to improve her basic manners with it! Guess i'll have to do some reading as I'm not attentive enough to stop the behavior before it happens.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

You need to find an expert trainer to help you with your markers your corrections and your timing. Your issues with your dog stem from lack of clarity and its that lack of understanding on the dogs part and yours that is going to need to be worked on before you start thinking of using another tool. The tool wont fix the issue if you are not using it properly.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

People who dont know always seem to think out of training tools the ecollar is the bigger gun. It is not. The most useful and powerful training tool is the prong collar and leash.


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## NINADOG (Oct 3, 2014)

Thank you Bailiff (and everyone else) for your suggestions and advice. I do have a trainer that 'fits the bill' not far from where I live..not sure if I can afford him or not, but will give him a call. *I have considered E-Collar as there are times and situations I don't have the ability to correct her with a leash and prong. I guess I was under the misconception that ecollars were a better choice to lessen the amount and severity of corrections of prong collar usage.*


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Here is a good example of something most people would assume is a Punisher/correction actually being used as a reinforcer. Ofcourse I do use it as a low level punisher too once or twice but its effect is limited because the dog enjoys the stimulation.

Watch the stick when its used. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1B1avTstq8


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## NINADOG (Oct 3, 2014)

Thank you Blitzkrieg1 for posting... this is a technique and training aid I'm not familiar with but does seem to be helpful...especially with high drive 'harder' dogs who aren't easily offended or intimidated...such as my girl! 

I am going to see what I can further learn about it. thanks!


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Actually the Mal is handler sensitive. This doesnt really apply to pet training though just an example of how the dogs perception shapes what is a reinforcer or punisher not the humans. You can use the ecollar and prong the same way as I use the stick in the vid.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Hmm OK, E-Collar never used one myself but I understand that when used "properly" they work quite well!

Start here to educate yourself, you can contact Lou on here for more questions. 
Home


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

MadLab said:


> Guess the ops case comes under
> 
> 
> from a behavioral science point of view
> ...


Exactly - this is a behavior chain. This article explains it well, behavior chains can be good things that are intentionally created (such as on an agility course, where multiple steps must occur before the reward), and unintentional, which is what the OP is experiencing, where the dog learns that they need to do the bad thing and then stop doing the bad thing in order to get the reward. 

Behavior Chains | Tailored Dog Training


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Baillif said:


> Think about this. If i dont want you to speak english the best way to do that isnt to teach you french. Sure you know french now too but why would that stop you from speaking english? To successfully get you to stop speaking english i have to punish you for speaking english somehow.


I'm surprised - I know you can do better than that. :nono: Your example isn't even remotely comparable. Speaking French doesn't preclude you from also speaking English. But a dog cannot both sit for greetings and jump on the person simultaneously.


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## viking (May 2, 2014)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I'm surprised - I know you can do better than that. :nono: Your example isn't even remotely comparable. Speaking French doesn't preclude you from also speaking English. But a dog cannot both sit for greetings and jump on the person simultaneously.


I don't have a dog in this hunt (lol, I crack myself up) but can't help being a logic smart-mouth and point out that you cannot simultaneously speak french and english. So, actually, that particular criticism isn't valid.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I'm surprised - I know you can do better than that. :nono: Your example isn't even remotely comparable. Speaking French doesn't preclude you from also speaking English. But a dog cannot both sit for greetings and jump on the person simultaneously.


What Viking said... lol.


What are you going to do when the dog decides to do both behaviors in a greeting? Jump on you and then sit for the treat? The dog is able to have his cake and eat it too. The problem with sticking with just positive reinforcement for a behavior that is supposed to be alternative to a behavior that has a history of reinforcement and might just be self reinforcing (as jumping on people is with lots of dogs) is if there is no reward history to greeting with certain people with a sit they will go with what they will definitely be reinforced by which is the jumping on people. They also learn pretty quickly to discriminate whether or not you have the food reward on you.

I train a crap ton of dogs and believe me when I tell you trying to stop jumping by reinforcing an alternative behavior is super ineffective without the use of punishment in the vast majority of dogs.

Teaching the alternative behavior is a waste of time. The dog already knows an alternative behavior. Whatever it was doing instead of jumping on someone. Just punish the jumping.


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## FearlessFreya (Sep 6, 2015)

Freya used to do this as well - paws on the table and on the counter... We are also very big on positive reinforcement training, and our girl was very quick to learn what to do to get her treats. This is what worked for us;

1) Every time she jumped up, I would say "Off", and throw a treat on the floor to let her know the floor is where she belongs. 
2) Once I realized she was jumping up to get the treat, I would just say off, and ignore her until she sat or lay down, then I rewarded
3) Now that she gets that part, I've moved on to getting her to go and stay on her mat while I'm cooking - so treats only if she goes on her mat, and more treats if she stays

The point here, is that you treat behaviour changes incrementally. Once your pup gets what you want in stage 1, move onto stage 2, and so on... And then once they "get" it and start doing it regularly, treat less often to begin the weaning process...


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## NINADOG (Oct 3, 2014)

Again, thank 'you all' for all your input and advice... I now see that my sequence and timing of the reward in trying to correct pups 'faux pas' hasn't been correct which answers my question. While my dogs are first and foremost my pets and companions, they are just as importantly my dogs I train for obedience competition. However, if they don't 'make the grade' to be good competition candidates, I do have to make the most of what I've got as i'm not going to rehome them and have limits on the number of dogs I can keep. I've trained obedience for 15 yrs using +R and have a lot success in that method and usually can figure out training problems with a little help from my peers when needed. I certainly appreciate advice and input from more experieced trainers. 

While my newest pup and I are having a conflict of interest in figuring out who needs to do what in the way of correcting basic manners, we will in time come to an agreement as all my other dogs have and she will be a well mannered polite gal. It's just getting over the 'humps' that I reached out to ask for advice from 'you all' and I appreciate your time you put in for offering answers. The suggestion of using an ecollar came from an experienced professional trainer ...I usually don't care for ecollar training as have seen too many overnight ecollar 'trainers' offering it as a form of basic training for companion dogs even puppies and the owners think it's amazing their dog was 'trained' in two weeks. . . I also cringe when hearing the horror stories from local pet owners who buy a cheap ecollar, crank it up as high as it will go then attempt to 'correct' a problem with their dog which hardly ever helps matters...just makes it worse, I do appreciate ecollars as a viable option for particular training problems when coupled with good +R training. The professional trainer who suggested it does work in that capacity and I respect her advice. So I am further researching and asking questions from those who have used them in this manner.... Attending a training seminar offered at the highly respected training facility close to where I live that does cover operant and classical conditioning is definitely on my 'wish list' and would be very helpful.


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## NINADOG (Oct 3, 2014)

Baillif - My pup is overly excitable when friends come to visit and if allowed she will be jumping on top of them and being a big nuisance. I usually have to put her in her crate prior to letting people come in and then after 5 or 10 mins I take her out on prong and leash and ask and expect her to sit or laydown by me. (depending on who is visiting I may leave her crated) I will throw a few treats to her while she is laying down or sitting once she has settled... eventually in 15 mins or so she will quit focusing on visiting my company. At this point I will give a release command for her to get up (still wearing collar and leash) and at this point she will go visit, If it's a 'frequent flyer friend' visiting HE will ask her to sit, treat her and then pet her. (I imagine you will disagree with that)... IF she is still a bit high spirited or doens't know the person, I will ask her to sit giving a collar correction if needed and allow my company pet her (if they want) and then give her a treat. By this time all the excitement is out of her and she will go and lay down. Pup gets highly excitable at any type of activity and has very little impulse control which I've mentioned I believe. I often have wondered if her lack of impulse control has anything to do with her being a singleton. I realize she is a puppy still and some of her behavior is age related.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

OK, well if we are moving on from the "Four quadrants of Operant Conditioning." :crazy:

The "house manners and company" thing?? Baillif taught "us" this one and I knew a "breed" that desperately needed it! 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...ritorial-behavior-aggression.html#post7377250


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

NINADOG said:


> Baillif - My pup is overly excitable when friends come to visit and if allowed she will be jumping on top of them and being a big nuisance. I usually have to put her in her crate prior to letting people come in and then after 5 or 10 mins I take her out on prong and leash and ask and expect her to sit or laydown by me. (depending on who is visiting I may leave her crated) I will throw a few treats to her while she is laying down or sitting once she has settled... eventually in 15 mins or so she will quit focusing on visiting my company. At this point I will give a release command for her to get up (still wearing collar and leash) and at this point she will go visit, If it's a 'frequent flyer friend' visiting HE will ask her to sit, treat her and then pet her. (I imagine you will disagree with that)... IF she is still a bit high spirited or doens't know the person, I will ask her to sit giving a collar correction if needed and allow my company pet her (if they want) and then give her a treat. By this time all the excitement is out of her and she will go and lay down. Pup gets highly excitable at any type of activity and has very little impulse control which I've mentioned I believe. I often have wondered if her lack of impulse control has anything to do with her being a singleton. I realize she is a puppy still and some of her behavior is age related.


I think this is fine. Some behavior is handled very well with management strategies, which do not necessarily mean you won't also be working on training. If the main issue right now is the initial excitement when guests arrive but she calms down after awhile and then greets them politely, manage those first 15 minutes so she's not able to mug them. Having people totally ignore her during this time can help too. 

Behavior that's allowed to continue can be harder to fix because it becomes ingrained, which is why it's important to prevent it as much as possible. I don't have any experience with singletons but it seems more like this is an age/training issue than anything else. Impulse control is something dogs need to learn, not something they innately have, and at a year old she's still fairly young. Prevent her from doing what you don't want and reinforce the behavior you do want. That also solves the behavior chain issue of being good after being bad because she's learned that she will be rewarded for it. And as Ballif mentioned, some behaviors can be self reinforcing, which is why you need to make sure she can't continue doing that. 

We don't have company that often, so even at 7 years and 10 years, our dogs still get very excited when people come over. Because like with your girl it's only an issue for a short time and then they calm down, I've chosen not to spend a lot of time trying to find volunteers to help me train them to behave better for those first few minutes. Instead, when the doorbell rings I hand them each a bully stick. They go lay down and chew, and when they're done they come over and greet people politely. They don't have the opportunity to bark, (mouths full), or jump (too busy with their chewy), and I've also created a positive association with guests arriving because it now signals that they're going to get something they both love. And they like people too, so they also get to make the rounds and be social afterwards, in an acceptable way.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Baillif said:


> What are you going to do when the dog decides to do both behaviors in a greeting? Jump on you and then sit for the treat? The dog is able to have his cake and eat it too.


Management. Keep the dog on leash until she's capable of greeting calmly (as the OP is doing), so she can't engage in the problem behavior. That will prevent a negative behavior chain from occurring.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

That's up to you. If you want to manage that is fine. I myself prefer to teach dogs from a very early age a system of markers and consequences that are both desirable and undesirable for the dog and I clearly and directly teach the dogs exactly what I want from them or don't want from them in any situation. I prefer to get things done up front and quick and go from there. Dogs lives are short. Get it done quick and move on.

Some dogs are going to handle company better than others. Nervous young dogs have a particularly hard time dealing with company showing up to the house. Often their jumping and wiggling and hyper looking behaviors are an expression of nervousness and uncertainty and over expressions of submissive behaviors. Teaching them how to greet company and with low energy is a little more pressing than confident dogs which tend to kind of stride up and be normal with a more "whats up?" attitude.

The biggest pain in the butts are always the nervy dogs. 

Food in those situations is completely unnecessary.

In that situation what does the dog usually want?

Attention.

So how can the dog be motivated?

When the dog does the right thing it gets attention.

When it does the wrong thing it gets physically punished (poke, smack, flicked, pinched, collar popped, ecollar etc)

It can also be negative punished (dog gets ignored) Both the positive and negative punishment can be combined in this case.

Why add food?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Have you guys ever seen a rude puppy play with a seasoned social older dog? When the young puppy wont stop trying to jump on the older dog or lick its mouth or whatever else an annoying puppy comes up with.

How do the dogs respond? They move away and completely ignore the puppy despite the badgering till the puppy calms down, or they growl and show teeth, and if the puppy doesn't get the point often they will nip the crap out of the puppy until it buggers off and calms down.


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## NINADOG (Oct 3, 2014)

Baillif said:


> Have you guys ever seen a rude puppy play with a seasoned social older dog? When the young puppy wont stop trying to jump on the older dog or lick its mouth or whatever else an annoying puppy comes up with.
> 
> How do the dogs respond? They move away and completely ignore the puppy despite the badgering till the puppy calms down, or they growl and show teeth, and if the puppy doesn't get the point often they will nip the crap out of the puppy until it buggers off and calms down.


I'm laughing as this scenario is ongoing with pup and my senior male... only these days puppy never gets the ' hint' and the more reaction she gets out of him the more she annoys him until I have to put her up. I had hoped that with his "authority" around here he would teach her to respect him but he never has. Yes, he's older, but has always kept law and order in the house. 

puppy is very social and outgoing and loves people and I wouldn't call her 'nervy' by no means. She's got a very sound temperament for her age. I honestly don't feel a need to come down hard on her rude manners she exhibits at this point and time (i'm sure some will disagree)and will continue working with her (minus the food treats and +R) as I can now see how I have been inadvertently and unknowingly been teaching her to increase her bad habits which has been pointed out. She'a a very apt study and can quickly 'connect the dots' to create an unwanted behavior chain which is MY fault. If her issues were related to aggression/fear aggression I'd be much more concerned about a quicker resolution.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

You dont get it


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## NINADOG (Oct 3, 2014)

hmmm..... guess i'm a dumb butt..lol If you're referring to the scenario you outlined of how an older adult dog teaches respect to the puppy thru corrections and the puppy responds appropriately to the corrections by showing respect, Yeah, I get it. You are indicating that this is the way they learn the easiest.... 
I was simply describing how my puppy reacts to this type of 'teaching' from my older male. She never ever will give in to the point she will engage in a fight if he corrects too fiercely.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

You will not EVER achieve your goals without some sort of clear punishment either negative or positive is up to you but negative would be extremely ineffective should the dog find jumping self reinforcing and if its giving your older dog grief i bet it does.


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## NINADOG (Oct 3, 2014)

I appreciate your expertise and advice(Baillif) based on your experiences of training tons of dogs as you said and I'm listening and learning from it. Since dogs learn differently I'm looking at puppy and thinking of how i can more effectively teach her basic manners.


Scenerio - Pup jumps up on me, i turn my back, say 'no' and 'sit' and repeat until she complies with sitting and then immediate confirmation "yes", pet and give a treat if I have one. This pup (highly food motivated and good thinker) connects jumping with the TREAT... behavior increases. Other less food motivated dogs directly connect sitting with the treat and not the jumping so jumping deceases.. Since pup doesn't keep prong and leash on in the house, any attempt to try to correct her is futile, and would turn into a big fun game for her .. and nothing would be accomplished. So... as a general scenario this is where I'm at on trying to determine my best course of action.

In obed training i have had very good success with positive reinforcent and verbal markers. All makes good sence to me and the dogs and they improve, so in that sence my goals are achieved. 

I don't claim to be a professional trainer but over many years i have fostered/temp fostered quite a few rescue GSDs as well as doing lots of shelter/private assessments of GSDs for rescues, so i have a fair amount of experience with the breed. Some good, some bad, and some down right scarey.... They've taught me a lot. I do have high expectations of my personal dogs to be excellent representations of the breed and amazingly they succeed.


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