# Frustrated



## MrGSD (Dec 7, 2018)

Frustrated or disappointed...not sure which applies, probably both!

As I've previously mentioned in another of my threads, I have a deposit for my next girl. I was #4 for a female. Well, the breeder just contacted me and informed me that only 3 females were born from 2 litters. So I lose out this time around  She is expecting another litter or 2 during the summer, but no way can I go without for the summer months. Bad enough I've been with out for the last 2 months, but to have to wait until the end of the summer isn't something I want to go through. She did mention that she has plans in the works to import GSD pups next month and she states she has experience getting pups from this overseas breeder in the past. At face value...I'm not sure if I should proceed with this option since I know nothing about getting an imported pup. Meaning pros and cons.

Meanwhile, I've started searching again. I've reached out to a few breeders and heard back from 2. One is in Indiana, that is listed at 'PuppySpot'. 1st thought is I'm not going through what I did with Marley so naturally I'm hesitant with buying over the web. However, PuppySpot does have some impressive credentials (IMO) and backs the health for 10 yrs. Price is acceptable @ $2400 and includes shipping to here in CT. Based on the pics I've received and reviewing the contract, I'm interested. But... ??

Next is a breeder from Ma, just outside of Boston. He has a 10 week old Black/Tan female with her pedigree history. This breeder has some impressive reviews on Facebook if they're sincere. Plus this breeder needs to interview me in person and would travel to my home with the pup, not that I couldn't drive there. If I meet his criteria, which I'm confident I'll exceed, he'll leave the pup with me after payment...which is the only negative...$4K GULP!! I was hoping to keep the price at $2500 max. 

Before I continue to ramble on and on, I'll stop here. If any of you have any suggestions or comments by all means let me hear them. You folks have helped me avoid problems in the past and hoping for some words of wisdom again. One thing I will stress...I don't want to make a decision based on emotions, but it seems that I'm heading there again. There are a boatload of BYB's out there which I want no part of. But finding a reputable breeder within driving distance from CT seems to be challenging so far.

Thanks in advance!


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## MrGSD (Dec 7, 2018)

Now that I've read some more reviews about the Boston area breeder, having 2nd thoughts. Think I'll pass on him now.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I'm sure you've told us what you were looking for in a pup. One question I have is Why female? the other would be What do you intend to do with the pup - sport for fun or competition - general obedience competition for fun - What's the dog's job going to be besides "hang out"?


So far with pups I've been lucky as the right pup was available at the right time even when I was prepared to wait several months. I have no idea what I'll do or how it will work out when the time comes for the next pup. So basically not much help. 



And Why does it have to be within driving distance of CT? I've flown out to get a pup and flown her back. I've driven 1000 miles to get a pup. My experience with CT = driving distance = not very far at all. So look further maybe?




I would caution you 'though to not let the time factor push your decision - ie try not to start feeling desperate. Look until you find the pup that feels right.


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## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

Sorry about the run around you are getting, that can be super frustrating. I just went through the puppy buying process and it can be a lot to filter through everything and find a breeder that meets your needs.

What exactly are you looking for in a GSD? If you let us know what you're wanting, members here may be able to suggest kennels that fit.


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## MrGSD (Dec 7, 2018)

Hard to put in words other than after having 3 girls, I find their personality to be more fitting to my tastes. A friend had a male, so I somewhat know about the male side. But in all honesty, my heart is with a female and that's what I want at this time. When the time comes to add the 2nd dog that I so much want as well, that one will be a male. I say that because I don't want to say that I outright don't want a male, just not at this time.


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## MrGSD (Dec 7, 2018)

@middleofnowhere


I overlooked a question you had...my intentions for a GSD, like my previous girls is companion, security alarm and alarm clock seeing the progress of my training results, keeps me active, etc. There something mystical about a female GSD for me and nothing can take its place. Again...hard to put in words, but for sure one could say I'm addicted to the breed. 



As for travel...not really interested in flying anymore. I drove 5+ hrs to PA for Marley, so I can handle reasonable amount of driving. Plus after spending a serious amount trying to save Marley, my funds are limited.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

What happened to all the breeders I've suggested for you?


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## MrGSD (Dec 7, 2018)

I have to head out for awhile, so I'll return later. But there is one thing that I'm really most concerned with and that is the pups health. I realize nothing in life is guaranteed, but is asking for a healthy pup that can be reasonably verified, asking that Much? It seems to me several of these people want you to take there word for it, which is not enough for me. 



Or it could be that I'm paranoid after Marley's ordeal?


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

MrGSD said:


> One is in Indiana, that is listed at *'PuppySpot'*. 1st thought is I'm not going through what I did with Marley so naturally I'm hesitant with buying over the web. However, PuppySpot does have some impressive credentials (IMO) and backs the health for 10 yrs. Price is acceptable @ $2400 and includes shipping to here in CT. Based on the pics I've received and reviewing the contract, I'm interested. But... ??



*NO, NO PLEASE....... NOT PUPPY SPOT!!!!!!! 
*
*Please see this thread about PuppySpot: https://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/weekly-discussion-topics/751481-new-way-buy-puppy-2.html
*



Contact the breeder's that Jax08 suggested.


Mom's


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

MrGSD said:


> Frustrated or disappointed...not sure which applies, probably both!...
> ...Before I continue to ramble on and on, I'll stop here. If any of you have any suggestions or comments by all means let me hear them. You folks have helped me avoid problems in the past and hoping for some words of wisdom again. One thing I will stress...I don't want to make a decision based on emotions, but it seems that I'm heading there again. There are a boatload of BYB's out there which I want no part of. But finding a reputable breeder within driving distance from CT seems to be challenging so far.
> Thanks in advance!


What type of GSD are you looking for? Working or show lines? I wouldn't lock myself into a time frame because that is going to severely limit your options and increase the odds that you don't get what you want. You said you wanted a healthy female pup. Can you describe some other specific traits that you would like to see in your next dog? What are your goals for the dog? Jax8 wrote something about a list of breeders. Who are they. You should look for someone who is knowledgeable about the dogs they are breeding and also have some experience in training dogs IMO. You should be able to get a quality pup for $2,500. Then you have to consider what pick you get. There will be pups that are better or meet your expectations more than others. Being in a hurry and getting in on a litter at the last minute is likely going to decrease your chances of getting what you want. With my last dog, I had a deposit down before the parents were even bred. It sounds like you need to do a lot more narrowing down of the type of dog you want and more research on who is most likely to be able to meet your wants.


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## DaBai (Aug 13, 2017)

A friend tried buying a $3500 silver sable pup from puppyspot and was not even allowed to speak with the breeder directly due to "privacy" reasons and he wasn't asked the typical questions by their puppy experts such as living environments for the pup too. He googled the company and found many negative reviews. Apparently lots of people ended up getting mixed breed pups, sick pups, and having their puppies not arriving on time, and when those people tried to contact puppyspot again for those after sale issues they didn't get the same speedy response they got before they made the purchase. Also read reviews on glassdoor made by the company's employees, some employees outright claimed their health guarantees are jokes and the executives spent lots on marketing and have a competitive sales bonus strategy that makes sales people send puppies to homes that shouldn't have puppies in order to get commissions. Beware of good reviews on glassdoor too, one employee said that the first good review he made of company on glassdoor was made while another employee watched him write the review and instructed him on what to write.


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## gsdsteve (Apr 24, 2010)

I have to say I'm amazed. With a little bit of research on the breed and the difference between german shepherd lines, it shouldn't be that hard to find a good breeder! Everyone has a computer!!! Use it!!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

gsdsteve said:


> I have to say I'm amazed. With a little bit of research on the breed and the difference between german shepherd lines, it shouldn't be that hard to find a good breeder! Everyone has a computer!!! Use it!!



It's incredibly difficult to find a good breeder, and the bad ones dedicate much more time to developing websites and making sure they stay at the top of the searches. 
When you get badly burned sometimes it's tough to trust your own judgement and more comfortable to ask for input.


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## MrGSD (Dec 7, 2018)

Jax08 said:


> What happened to all the breeders I've suggested for you?


 Sorry to leave so abruptly. I saw your post after my last post but was pressed for time and already late.


With one exception, I honestly don't remember who you suggested. But I still have an extensive list and they would be listed there. At that time I reviewed all the breeders I had and selected 3, 2 of who I visited. From those I selected one and gave the deposit. Thought I was golden.


As for the one exception, I thought that was a real possibility. But it may have been my insistence to not waiting all summer that could have been the downfall. Our conversing all of a sudden stopped. I did get a somewhat vague message a bit later in time, but by then I had already placed the deposit. We haven't spoken since and not sure if I should contact her again.


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## MrGSD (Dec 7, 2018)

Momto2GSDs said:


> *NO, NO PLEASE....... NOT PUPPY SPOT!!!!!!!
> *
> *Please see this thread about PuppySpot: https://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/weekly-discussion-topics/751481-new-way-buy-puppy-2.html
> *
> ...


 Thanks, my gut feeling was telling me to be very cautious. This was the 1st I heard of them and their website and sales pitch was very convincing. Which is why I mentioned them. When i asked about the Dam & Sire and their hips, elbows, and the DMA testing, I was told it would be included with the paperwork they send after I purchased the dog. There were other flags, but that one gave me reason to pause. 



I'll be curious to read that thread you listed...thanks!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

You don't have to spend a ton of money for a nice dog..I live in CT, tho my dogs have come from other areas..In this area I suggest watcher engel, Von Hena C, Pia Blackwell, If your looking to adopt/rescue, Contact Redemption Rescue/ Tina Zinn in CT.


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## MrGSD (Dec 7, 2018)

Chip Blasiole said:


> What type of GSD are you looking for? Working or show lines? I wouldn't lock myself into a time frame because that is going to severely limit your options and increase the odds that you don't get what you want. You said you wanted a healthy female pup. Can you describe some other specific traits that you would like to see in your next dog? What are your goals for the dog? Jax8 wrote something about a list of breeders. Who are they. You should look for someone who is knowledgeable about the dogs they are breeding and also have some experience in training dogs IMO. You should be able to get a quality pup for $2,500. Then you have to consider what pick you get. There will be pups that are better or meet your expectations more than others. Being in a hurry and getting in on a litter at the last minute is likely going to decrease your chances of getting what you want. With my last dog, I had a deposit down before the parents were even bred. It sounds like you need to do a lot more narrowing down of the type of dog you want and more research on who is most likely to be able to meet your wants.


 Actually I do know exactly what I want. I had previously spent a considerable amount of time researching and had visited 2 breeders. Unfortunately, had I made a decision the day I visited the breeder I chose, I would have been #2 on the list for females instead of #4 when I made the final decision a week later. After raising 3 girls from 8 weeks... 2 of those lived long healthy lives til 12+ yrs of age, and my recent girl who passed at 9 months, I learned alot and I could see the results of my experience in Marley. Made me really proud that I accomplished what I did in the short time I had her. I'm not as knowledgeable about the breed as many here are. But the experience I had with all 3 clearly defines (for me) what I want in a GSD.


So, to answer your questions:
WL or SL would suit my needs based on what I know about the 2. Unless I'm mistaken, with the WGSL, I stand a better chance of getting a large/thick bones dog. I know WL females are generally smaller in size, but I've seen SL with the large frames.

Working line is what my previous girls were, but this recent deposit was for a WGSL. The size of the Dam & Sire were very appealing to me and that's part of why I went this route. 

To be specific...I want female and Black/Tan or Black/Red with a clean health history from the parents back a few generations. No exceptions, I'm firm with that much. Med to hi drive, leaning more towards Med drive though. But after raising Maggie who was full blown, out of control, off the walls High Drive, I'd enjoy that experience again as I now know how to handle it. But being realistic and now that I'm older, med drive would be more suitable. I enjoy the challenges an energetic dog requires. Keeps you on your toes and alert. I also prefer a feisty lil witch lol as that trait seems to be a perfect match for me. I don't have any intentions of showing or competing, just a companion that will keep me sharp and active. In a way, a playmate for me since I spend most of my time home on my property. I enjoy the outdoors 24/7 and having a GSD at your side is an incredible experience, for me anyways. 

From experience, when I see the dog I want, I'll know. That much I'm confident in. Not that I'm all about visual, but instead everything combined. For one, their eyes...as strange as it may sound , I can see and understand alot about a dog just by looking in its eyes. Next would be confidence, which is an important trait. Are the shy and timid or outgoing and willing to move forward without wavering. The latter would be my ideal. As for health, I was burned hard with my recent girl and it likely scarred me. In fact I'll admit to being a bit paranoid now. But it is what it is and I'll use my best judgement when it comes time. There are 2 breeders specifically that I would not hesitate to take one of their pups. So I do have a clue what I'm looking for health wise 

I do now realize that I may not get exactly what I want in time for summer, but that won't stop me from trying. I got caught up in emotions a couple times recently, and thankfully there are a few good folks here who made me see the light before I made the wrong decision. I do know right from wrong when selecting a GSD, but sometimes my desires take over.


Sorry for the long winded post, but maybe it'll give you and anyone else an idea of what I.m looking for. There are more specific traits, but I've said enough for now.


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## MrGSD (Dec 7, 2018)

JakodaCD OA said:


> You don't have to spend a ton of money for a nice dog..I live in CT, tho my dogs have come from other areas..In this area I suggest watcher engel, Von Hena C, Pia Blackwell, If your looking to adopt/rescue, Contact Redemption Rescue/ Tina Zinn in CT.


Thanks, I'll look into them. I am aware of 2 of those and one I was advised to stay away and she didn't seem to interested in selling any pups when I spoke with her. My local vet even recommended her. Don't want to bad mouth anyone, so I'll leave it at that.


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## MrGSD (Dec 7, 2018)

DaBai said:


> A friend tried buying a $3500 silver sable pup from puppyspot and was not even allowed to speak with the breeder directly due to "privacy" reasons and he wasn't asked the typical questions by their puppy experts such as living environments for the pup too. He googled the company and found many negative reviews. Apparently lots of people ended up getting mixed breed pups, sick pups, and having their puppies not arriving on time, and when those people tried to contact puppyspot again for those after sale issues they didn't get the same speedy response they got before they made the purchase. Also read reviews on glassdoor made by the company's employees, some employees outright claimed their health guarantees are jokes and the executives spent lots on marketing and have a competitive sales bonus strategy that makes sales people send puppies to homes that shouldn't have puppies in order to get commissions. Beware of good reviews on glassdoor too, one employee said that the first good review he made of company on glassdoor was made while another employee watched him write the review and instructed him on what to write.


 Wow...admittedly I didn't look up any reviews for PS. First time I visited their site. It did initially come across as being legit and professional, but that didn't last long. They made it sound like it was the best place to get a dog and don't wait too long or the dog would probably get sold at that price. 



I had a similar experience with asking about the breeder and was expected to accept the their word as being sufficient as far as the dogs health and testing. All I got was the dog was checked by a qualified vet head to tail and said to be healthy.


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## MrGSD (Dec 7, 2018)

https://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/members/456322-dabai.html@Momto2GSDs

I read the thread you mentioned and it left me shaking my head. Surprised it was so recent. Makes me wonder how many uniformed fall victim to an outfit like this. I almost did. They have a pretty convincing sales pitch going on, but that's about it. Places like this proves searching for a dog with a PC is not the end all answer. In fact I've found a couple breeders who act similar and expect you to just believe what they tell you. So glad a few flags went up for me and I was able to verify my hunch thanks to you and DaBai


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Well, for a companion that you are going to hopefully have for 10 to 14 years, waiting a few more months doesn't seem so bad. So, you did your research, researched the breeder, researched the lines, know what you want, got excited, put down your deposit and waited for your number in line to be up. 

Well, nature had it that only 3 females are born. And you are number four. Ok. So now you are number one. 

Ya know, if you go to a restaurant and there are a bunch of cars in the parking lot, you may have to wait for a table. If you go to a restaurant and there are no cars in the parking lot, the food probably sucks. The same could be true here. 

Now, because you don't want to wait, you are going to go to a breeder without a wait, who will have the puppy with no waiting. Whatever. I think you are making a mistake. If you like the previous breeder and what she is producing, than give it a little more time.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

MrGSD said:


> ...So, to answer your questions:
> WL or SL would suit my needs based on what I know about the 2. Unless I'm mistaken, with the WGSL, I stand a better chance of getting a large/thick bones dog. I know WL females are generally smaller in size, but I've seen SL with the large frames.
> 
> Working line is what my previous girls were, but this recent deposit was for a WGSL. The size of the Dam & Sire were very appealing to me and that's part of why I went this route.
> ...



You say your not all about visual (appearance), but from your post, it sounds like you pretty much are. You said either working line or show line would meet your needs. IMO, they are essentially separate breeds. Color seems to be a priority. You might think you can tell a lot by looking into a dogs eyes, but I think you are fooling yourself. You said when you see the dog you want, you will know. If you are getting a pup, you won't know much without doing some temperament testing and even then, that is just a slight snapshot of what the dog might turn out as. I think you would be better served to have a more specific criteria regarding what you are looking for and then gather information on the dogs in the pedigrees of breedings you are looking at and try to learn as much as possible about those dogs and what they have produced. Otherwise, I still think you are getting caught up in your emotions.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

You are only frustrated because you won't wait for a good breeder and you're all over the place. Find a breeder and WAIT.


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## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

I can understand wanting a pup for the summer, so if you like that breeder, consider an import. It's not that complicated or different from getting a pup locally. The breeder here will do all the work of paperwork, airport trip, customs, and shipping, and if she knows her dogs, you should end up with a nice pup that is similar to the pups that breeder aims to produce. I'd do it.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

If you just want nice black-and-tan dog -- right now -- there are a gazillion of them in breed rescues all over the country. Genetics would be the same crap shoot as the way you're going about it, so at least you'd get a dog "right now," and offer a home to a dog that needs one without lining some BYB's pocket. Many of them are perfectly fine companions, with nice dispositions once they get some training, and good (or at least average) health, and at least with breed rescue, someone is likely to be picking nice breed ambassadors.

Are you looking on Petfinder.com and AdoptaPet.com? Adolescents needing rehoming are a dime a dozen in breed rescue -- people bought "too much dog" from a breeder who didn't screen buyers and just wanted cash, and the cute puppy grew big and rambunctious, with no leadership or outlet for what comes naturally, so they drove their people nuts and eventually lost a home. The newbie owners who dump young dogs like that probably buying from the same places you're looking, so why not pay just a few hundred dollars to a rescue and pocket the extra grand or two for pet insurance, training, toys, and fun?


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## Orphan Heidi (Sep 21, 2018)

Don't forget that county/city shelters take in many young GSD even before the breed rescues pull them out of shelters.

Many of these dogs are only 1-2 yrs. old and sometimes they even have puppies available. 

I've taken 2 from our county shelter. The 1st one cost $75. I paid extra for my vet to spay her. She was a purebred GSD

and lived a super healthy life til 16 yrs. old. She did get DM.

The second may be GSD/Husky mix, cost $10. had all shots, heartworm tested and spayed. Healthy 2 yr. old.

I didn't want a puppy, but I did want a dog young enough to train and manner it, my way. 

I would highly encourage you to check out the shelters first. Lots of great dogs there.


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## Orphan Heidi (Sep 21, 2018)

Not to tempt you or anything, but here is Petfinder's 3 pages of female GSD's or GSD mixes withing 100 miles of you.

There's some gorgeous dogs here. Some may need additional training but if you've had GSD's before you probably

can work through their issues. Take a peek.

https://www.petfinder.com/search/do...breed[0]=German+Shepherd+Dog&gender[0]=female


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## MrGSD (Dec 7, 2018)

Jax08 said:


> You are only frustrated because you won't wait for a good breeder and you're all over the place. Find a breeder and WAIT.


Wrong...no make that an emphatic wrong on all counts with the exception of me being impatient, which I have strong reasons for being


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## MrGSD (Dec 7, 2018)

Thank you for all the commentary everyone. Some I'll take with a grain of salt. The rest I'll take into consideration as I move on with my search. I am goal oriented and have no doubt I'll succeed finding what I'm looking for.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

:shrug: You can be angry with me if you want to. I spent a bit of time talking to you and trying to help you. I know we talked about what makes a good breeder vs a bad one. My advise was solid. Find a good breeder and wait.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> You are only frustrated because you won't wait for a good breeder and you're all over the place. Find a breeder and WAIT.





MrGSD said:


> Wrong...no make that an emphatic wrong on all counts with the exception of *me being impatient*, which I have strong reasons for being


So essentially you agree?? Your disappointment due to the outcome of the litter is understandable, however your impatience is now causing your frustration and this in turn can cloud decisions. The advice may be hard to hear, but it is solid.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

MrGSD said:


> Thank you for all the commentary everyone. Some I'll take with a grain of salt. The rest I'll take into consideration as I move on with my search. I am goal oriented and have no doubt I'll succeed finding what I'm looking for.


Here is another grain of salt. Jax is giving great advice. She recommended Hollow Hills kennel to me. I had a list of 5 breeders to check. I never made it past Beth. I liked her, her operation and especially her dogs. We found the perfect pup for us. We were quite surprised we went home with a pup that day. This isn't the norm for purchasing a pup. My point is, if Jax gave you recommendations, go see them. Even if you don't find what you are looking for, you will gain experience and knowledge. 

Btw, my pup is a perfect companion dog. Just turned a year old, will be testing for gcd and therapy certificate to work with autistic children and veterans.


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

I disagree with much of the advice given here. Sticking with one breeder and possibly waiting eons until they have what you want doesn't make sense, especially after what you went through with Marley. It's like saying you will only get a product from Walmart and you'll wait as long as you have to until Walmart has it in stock instead of buying it somewhere else. And never mind that lots of other places have the product you want. You need the right puppy asap.


You are understandably frustrated because you waited for a litter to have what you wanted and it didn't.


Health testing is fine but it's not enough. Lots of dog killers--cancer, EPI, inflammatory GI disease, etc.--can't be genetically tested for.


And health "guarantees" aren't worth much either. What if Marley had come with a health "guarantee" that covered her cancer? She still would have died, and you might have gotten a "replacement" (genetically defective?) puppy of her breeder's choice.


Everyone flips out about hip dysplasia, and obviously dysplastic dogs should not be bred, but Marley would have been better off if she'd had terrible hip dysplasia instead of that horrible cancer. For less than you spent trying to save her, you could have gotten her a total hip replacement and odds are she would have been fine.



You need to look for breeders that have a track record of longevity in their lines. This is what matters most for health, since it covers everything. If you're willing to consider an Ambred, Ranita Kennels uses some excellent long-lived lines. You can see her dogs at:


http://marketplace.akc.org/breeder/anita-clouse-52133/german-shepherd-dog/coming-soon


She does have a 6-month-old female available now.


If you want to stick to German lines, Valkyre tries to breed for longevity and may currently have some older pups:


index


Does anyone here know of other GSD breeders that breed for longevity?


BTW, I agree with you that you can tell a lot by looking at a puppy's eyes. It's the expression that counts and shows the personality. I have never been misled by this. A good breeder will also send you videos of a puppy if you can't make the trip before having a puppy shipped.



You know what you want and need, and you should go for it. Consider expanding your search area. The best dog I ever had was shipped to me without my ever seeing him first. The video, description, and pic (the eyes!) told me everything I needed to know.


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## Pan_GSD (Oct 2, 2016)

JonRob said:


> You need to look for breeders that have a track record of longevity in their lines. This is what matters most for health
> 
> 
> BTW, I agree with you that you can tell a lot by looking at a puppy's eyes. It's the expression that counts and shows the personality.


that's very interesting, i have never thought about that.
2 questions.
does going for longevity sacrifice inclination towards dysplasia? are they correlated at all? or totally not?
and seocnd, what exactly do you look for in a puppy's eyes? focus? engagement? distraction? 

thx


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I am yet another who sees that unknown something in the eyes. I bought horses that way for years, and those eyes played heavily into my training. 
I remember going to an auction as a young girl with a trainer I worked for and telling him he should buy the horse in the ring that no one except the knacker was looking at. He hesitated but bought him. Turns out I was right, made a mint. It was all there in the eyes, people just don't look.
It was Buds eyes, not him trying to eat me, that convinced me to fight for him. If I had based my decision on his personality at that point I might have helped the vet in the morning. He was a seriously unpleasant animal.


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

Pan_GSD said:


> does going for longevity sacrifice inclination towards dysplasia? are they correlated at all? or totally not?
> and seocnd, what exactly do you look for in a puppy's eyes? focus? engagement? distraction?


Those are great questions. Since dysplastic dogs are often euthanized young, longevity should select against bad hip dysplasia.

I specialize in finding great companion dogs, potential service dogs, and potential therapy dogs. For these, I look for a round-eyed, loving, totally-focused-on-the-person expression--the kind that makes your heart melt.

I also look for "the look of eagles"--that magnificent, alert, confident, noble look that can't be described but is immediately recognized when you see it.

I stay away from the squinty-eyed, suspicious look--which is what someone else might want, and nothing wrong with that.


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

Sabis mom said:


> I am yet another who sees that unknown something in the eyes. I bought horses that way for years, and those eyes played heavily into my training.
> I remember going to an auction as a young girl with a trainer I worked for and telling him he should buy the horse in the ring that no one except the knacker was looking at. He hesitated but bought him. Turns out I was right, made a mint. It was all there in the eyes, people just don't look.
> It was Buds eyes, not him trying to eat me, that convinced me to fight for him. If I had based my decision on his personality at that point I might have helped the vet in the morning. He was a seriously unpleasant animal.



I never thought of doing this with horses, but that sure does make sense. Bud was lucky you found him and saw who he really was. 

The eyes truly are the windows of the soul


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

JonRob said:


> I disagree with much of the advice given here. Sticking with one breeder and possibly waiting eons until they have what you want doesn't make sense, especially after what you went through with Marley. It's like saying you will only get a product from Walmart and you'll wait as long as you have to until Walmart has it in stock instead of buying it somewhere else. And never mind that lots of other places have the product you want. You need the right puppy asap.
> 
> 
> You are understandably frustrated because you waited for a litter to have what you wanted and it didn't.
> ...



I just lost my Quinnie to oral cancer, she was 3.5 years old Her mom is 9 years old and looks young and athletic enough to have been bred this year, but she is in with her one year old daughter who was from her last litter, and she won't be bred again. Her grand mother I lost at just two months less than 13 years. Her grandmother's litter sister I still have and will be 14 in August, God willing. Another sister will be 13 in August. Her other grandmother will be 12 in October. 

You can have longevity in your lines and still lose a dog to cancer. In fact, when we purchase a live creature, we have to go into it with the understanding that there really are no guaranties. I wouldn't want anyone to go through what I went through with Quinnie, but I wouldn't trade having owned such a magnificient creature, even for 3.5 years. 

We research a breed for a number of reasons. 
1. We want a certain kind of dog. With a certain temperament and drives. 
2. We want certain bloodlines that we can predict what we cannot necessarily see at eight weeks. 
3. We want a breeder who has the ethics and practices that we want to support. 
4. We want a breeder who can give us support from her experience after the purchase of our puppy. 
5. We want a breeder who will walk us through the process and keep us apprised of what is going on. 

We invest time and energy finding the right person to get our new companion from, for more reasons than that. But they invest time and energy in us as well. They have talked to us, given us their opinion on what to expect from a breeding, got to know us a little to determine the suitability of our dog for our lifestyle, expectations, temperament, etc. 

But we throw all that out the window when the litter does not produce the number of females or males. And take all that knowledge and go with the guy down the road. 


When my mom ran the tack room, there were folks that would come in and sit on every saddle in the shop, taking all kinds of time and work for my old mother -- saddles aren't light. And then they would leave and go buy a saddle from the internet. One actually had the audacity to come and tell her the saddle she bought from the internet wasn't the quality she wanted, and asked my mom if she would sell it for her. 

I am not suggesting that when you have had a conversation with a breeder you are obligated to buy from them. But once you make that decision and put your deposit down, unless the breeder does something that makes you wary of dealing with her, ie gets suspended by the AKC for kicking her dog, or gets fined for not having the paperwork right, or not following local ordinances, or refuses to honor a contract. I mean there are reasons to give up on a breeder. Even if the breeder fails to return calls -- that suggests the breeder is not going to be supportive. But to leave a breeder because there weren't enough females in their first two litters of the year, and they are going to have another litter in the summer, to me, she (the breeder) is probably well shut of such a buyer. 

As breeders we have to judge people. One of the things we have to judge is whether this person will have a commitment to the puppy. If you can't wait a couple of extra months, then maybe when potty training isn't instantaneous, the dog lands outside, maybe when we need to move for a job, can't find suitable housing for a dog, off to the shelter, because, once folks decide to no longer keep a dog, some of them really don't care what happens to the dog, and getting it back to the breeder is a bigger hassle. 

You made a deal, and I think if you don't care about your deposit, fine, but that is always the next question. Well, she didn't have the female puppy so she should return my deposit. Nope. She should keep your deposit because she has another puppy to offer you, and there are just a few months difference, and that is nature. She is not failing her part of the contract/deal, but you are.


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

selzer said:


> You can have longevity in your lines and still lose a dog to cancer.
> 
> As breeders we have to judge people. One of the things we have to judge is whether this person will have a commitment to the puppy. If you can't wait a couple of extra months, then maybe when potty training isn't instantaneous, the dog lands outside, maybe when we need to move for a job, can't find suitable housing for a dog, off to the shelter, because, once folks decide to no longer keep a dog, some of them really don't care what happens to the dog, and getting it back to the breeder is a bigger hassle.


Of course you can lose a dog to cancer even with longevity in her lines. It's always a question of good odds or bad odds. The odds are obviously better in lines with longevity. How many of us would buy a puppy from a breeder whose lines routinely produced dogs with very short lifespans?

It's remarkable that you suggest that the OP--who spent a fortune trying to save the life of his 10-month-old GSD--would be an irresponsible dog owner just because he "can't wait a couple of extra months" for a puppy. Frankly, I think that is outright slander, given the OP's track record. He was understandably devastated by the loss of his beloved and very young GSD. The only thing that helps relieve the grief is another GSD. Why should he continue to grieve intensely for "a couple of extra months"--actually, until the end of the summer (at least), after being without a GSD for the last two months? I wouldn't last a week without a GSD. Now he's learned the hard way that unborn litters are a total crapshoot. I'm sorry he went through that. 

He is not obligated to take anyone's advice about breeders, and there is no reason to dump on him for making the choice that is best for him.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

JonRob said:


> The only thing that helps relieve the grief is another GSD. Why should he continue to grieve intensely for "a couple of extra months"--actually, until the end of the summer (at least), after being without a GSD for the last two months?





Way too many of us on here have lost dogs. Young dogs. We all grieve. We all understand that having a good GSD is a wonderful thing. I was absolutely devastated when I lost my Sage to a freak infection, so I get it. I also think being impatient can really backfire on you, in many ways.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Breeders who take deposits on unborn litters risk disappointing buyers. Breeders who refuse to return deposits when they have no available pups are being kind of unethical. 
At my previous job I knew that from September to December I was going to be extremely busy and working long hours, impossible to bring a puppy home. So if I planned to bring a puppy home in March to take advantage of slow work, available time off and improving weather then a breeder called and said sorry now you need to wait until August I would say no dice please return my money. That is my right. 
If I lost a dog and wanted another and planned to bring one home in two months and the breeder said sorry now you need to wait 6 months, again no dice. 
To suggest that this makes me irresponsible in some way would be uncalled for and unfair. Not to mention that telling someone they are grieving wrong is ridiculous. If a puppy is what is needed to ease the pain then who are we to say that's wrong? It isn't like there is any risk it will be tossed away when the grieving is done. At least not in this case. I am dead certain that someone on this forum knows a breeder who has a litter on the ground now and I know we all debate to death the differences in all the lines but the reality is that they are all shepherds and since neither sport nor show is in question, and this is an owner who has experience with the breed, who cares? I will guarantee anyone that my ASL pet stock was the most challenging of any of my dogs, my WL intact male the best with other dogs and the easiest to train, my WL female an absolute breeze to do anything with and the most social. And my complete unknown had the best work ethic, was the most discerning and displayed the best aptitude for actual work. She was also the only one that displayed any natural herding and tending instincts. So really not sure what all the fuss is about. Can we all just be supportive and help find a darn puppy?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

JonRob said:


> Of course you can lose a dog to cancer even with longevity in her lines. It's always a question of good odds or bad odds. The odds are obviously better in lines with longevity. How many of us would buy a puppy from a breeder whose lines routinely produced dogs with very short lifespans?
> 
> It's remarkable that you suggest that the OP--who spent a fortune trying to save the life of his 10-month-old GSD--would be an irresponsible dog owner just because he "can't wait a couple of extra months" for a puppy. Frankly, I think that is outright slander, given the OP's track record. He was understandably devastated by the loss of his beloved and very young GSD. The only thing that helps relieve the grief is another GSD. Why should he continue to grieve intensely for "a couple of extra months"--actually, until the end of the summer (at least), after being without a GSD for the last two months? I wouldn't last a week without a GSD. Now he's learned the hard way that unborn litters are a total crapshoot. I'm sorry he went through that.
> 
> He is not obligated to take anyone's advice about breeders, and there is no reason to dump on him for making the choice that is best for him.



For some folks bringing in a new puppy right away is a good idea. For others it is bad for both the owner and possibly for the puppy. 


It is wrong to suggest that the ONLY way to grieve for a lost dog is to bring another in. It's not. In fact the grieving does not stop when the new puppy comes in, and a new puppy can be a total irritation. It can be a total set up. 


But what I said about breeders having to consider the commitment is true. Maybe a guy who has gone through **** trying to save their last puppy will show the same commitment to the new puppy, and maybe, if he is depressed and the new puppy turns out to be a disappointment for no fault of its own, it could be a different story. 

I do understand going through a prolonged illness resulting in death. I have a couple of other puppies that are not getting the classes they should have, have not been out and about yet, though one is 5 months and the other is 8 months. Today I took the five month out for the first time. The 8 month old has been nowhere but home, and a couple of visits to the vet. Having puppies that you can't enjoy because you have unfinished grieving isn't the end of the world, but it is also not the only way to grieve a lost dog.


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

Sabis mom said:


> Can we all just be supportive and help find a darn puppy?


 Now that would be the decent thing to do.

Maybe some folks are in a snit because the OP didn't take their advice. Heck, if I got mad every time someone didn't take my advice, I'd be in a snit all the time.

The OP knows better than anyone else what he needs and what he can handle.

I've seen a lot of neglectful dog owners, but not one of them had the OP's history of going all out and spending a fortune to try to save a dog. Still can't figure how some folks seem to hold that against him.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

I think people are just concerned because the OP seems all over the place looking for a new dog and has been finding some shady pother options. It's very easy to get impatient and go to a wrong breeder or get a wrong dog when you're rushing things. I think it's fine OP doesn't want to wait until the end of summer and I don't blame him for not wanting too. Personally I've always dealt with animal losses by getting a new pet right away. While it doesn't replace them they do give you a distraction and something else to love. 

If I was the OP I'd ask for good breeder suggestions that will be having litters soon or maybe have some older puppies. Slow down and don't rush into anything because the first dog didn't work out. I personally have done it and honestly I wish I'd waited because the disappointment of having a dog that doesn't fit when you were so looking forward to it is a loss of its own.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Kazel said:


> If I was the OP I'd ask for good breeder suggestions that will be having litters soon or maybe have some older puppies.



I’d like to help, but I don’t know anyone within driving distance of CT. I know of puppies with health tested parents - OFA, DM, etc - available right now in Okla and Texas, but that’s it.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Welll.....let me make this perfectly clear
I am not in a "snit" because someone didn't take my recommendation on a breeder. Plenty of good breeders have been recommended by several people. Nor did I call him a bad dog owner.

I am annoyed that I spent my time trying to help him to see the snarky response at me above. But I'll just take all that with a grain of salt and get on the road to go train my perfect puppy that I waited a few months for. 

Enjoy the sunshine!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sabis mom said:


> . Can we all just be supportive and help find a darn puppy?


Many of us already did that. He won't wait. One of those breeders recommended has a female available and he chose to not respond to her. Everyone makes their own choices.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I have a pup from Beth at hollow hill Luna she is a wgsl female great pup very biddable ,sweet , dog mild mannered , versatile beautiful girl. I have never had a dog who waits to get her nails trimmed before I get the trimmer. Luna slept in her crate the first night a brought her home and has been a very easy pup. I believe Beth has pups now.
I have my asl my heart dog from woodhaven gsd - Jessica Torres in south Hampton nj very driven dog with strong work ethic motivated me to learn different activities and do things with him - naturally protective - with a strong character he would do anything for me. They are both great with my kids I can take them places. Max does not like other dogs but his siblings were more social. Both dogs have longevity in their lines both are healthy dogs with no health issues. I had a working line to very quiet in the house not an ounce of hyperness. They were all different but they were all highly trainable and each one made me more in love with the breed. As mentioned there are no health guarantees. Alkarah in New Jersey also may have pups- not that I have gotten a pup but would take a look. As Jax mentioned patience is needed when find the right breeder and stick with them. Having no patience is very common and why puppy pet stores are in business. I do understand the wait is very painful I remember all to well. Looking melting the dogs and breeders and making a list of the qualities you want in a pup are an adventure waiting can be exciting as well. With social media it is very easy to reach out owners of people that have pups from breeders you are looking at.


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## MrGSD (Dec 7, 2018)

Jax08 said:


> Many of us already did that. He won't wait. One of those breeders recommended has a female available and he chose to not respond to her. Everyone makes their own choices.


 What in the flaming fallacy are you talking about????? This is the first I've heard of a female available. And please elaborate further about when where & who I chose not to respond to.

If this breeder is who I think it is, our last conversation was trying to work around her schedule and the weather so I could visit. Never heard back after my last text about if a particular day would work. Then about a week+/- later I get a message saying she was now "going to breed XXXX in April". At that point I was like...a little late with a reply don't you think. What happened to me visiting. Maybe she forgot maybe she was too busy or had other obligations. Life does get in the way sometimes. Meanwhile this was about the 3rd week of Feb and I had just place a deposit, so I didn't bother to respond to that message, figured it was pointless. But enough of this for the time being...

You asked if I was angry...why would I be angry? There was nothing I said that indicated I was in fact angry. All I did is respond in a similar manner as your reply to me. And if you feel that because I stressed the significance of the word ~wrong~ means I'm angry, then you are sadly mistaken.

But now after your last 2 posts...yes I am angry, in fact I'm LIVID. So here I am once again, put to the task of defending myself. And the last thing I'm going to do is ignore a statement that paints me as the bad guy by ignoring the offering of a puppy. But I also know and respect that this is a family friendly site, along with having much more respect for you and what you've done than what you give me credit for, so I will tone it down and take the high road. 

So with that said, I am willing to produce my Verizon phone records that will show each and every correspondence that we had and prove what I said is true. And if you choose to ignore this offering along with you or her producing something that *shows I ignored the offering of an available female puppy by not responding*, then I'm done here.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> Many of us already did that. He won't wait. One of those breeders recommended has a female available and he chose to not respond to her. Everyone makes their own choices.


I was not referring to you and I am sure he appreciates your help. Some people become a bit "scattered" when grieving. It's a coping mechanism but it often works against us. 

Sunny here as well, finally stopped snowing and I am off to enjoy a hike with my old girl.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

JonRob said:


> I disagree with much of the advice given here. Sticking with one breeder and possibly waiting eons until they have what you want doesn't make sense, especially after what you went through with Marley. It's like saying you will only get a product from Walmart and you'll wait as long as you have to until Walmart has it in stock instead of buying it somewhere else. And never mind that lots of other places have the product you want. You need the right puppy asap.
> 
> 
> You are understandably frustrated because you waited for a litter to have what you wanted and it didn't.
> ...


Most will agree that longevity is important, but for some it is only one of the boxes to be checked when searching for a pup.. solid nerves, enviromental soundness, drives, biddability, structure, energy level.... The more boxes you check the smaller the pool of breeders you'll have to choose from. There are also common traits people will look to avoid such as fearfulness, anxiety or inappropriate aggression. Others will also be seeking those same traits from that increasingly smaller pool and you will often find yourself on a waiting list. At the end of the day, longevity is nice, but you have to be a able to live with the dog, choose wisely.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

@MrGSD I may have a few that you haven't spoken to. I will pm you some names later.


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## MrGSD (Dec 7, 2018)

As a result of the direction this thread was headed, I decide to take a couple days off and let the dust settle. Figured I clear my thoughts and come back and try again. But then, against my better judgement I took the bait and came back sooner. I will admit and take the blame for this topic going off my intended course. I had initially only wanted to vent, but after looking at my 1st post, I see where I erred and apologize for it. I made my bed and will gladly lie in it.


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

Here's a breeder in New York with a female pup from Hollow Hills lines:


http:///www.facebook.com/pg/badenheathgermanshepherds/posts/?ref=page_internal


They claim they breed for "exceptional temperament, working ability, conformation and longevity." I do NOT know if they are ok or not, so if anyone knows anything bad about them, please pm MrGSD.


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## JonRob (Nov 5, 2017)

You might also check out the listings at:


http://marketplace.akc.org/puppies/german-shepherd-dog?breed=117&page=1&per_page=20


You can filter by state and puppies available now. Most of the ads are for German lines. But be careful. I suggest you run the names of breeders you are considering by the folks here to see if anyone knows anything bad about them.


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