# Alternative View on Dog Aggression/Bites



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

There are several threads lately where those with aggressive dogs seem to be unhappy with the general public.

In public we have dogs off leashes, drunks, idiots, stupid people. There are also homeless, druggies, low lifes, mentally ill and the list goes on.

So apparently if these people listed above either weren't around or could get it together, then those who have aggressive dogs who may bite would be free to go wherever without a care.

Whatever reason dogs become this way doesn't matter in the long run. It could be genetics, trauma, poor or no training or other reasons.

After the first bite or extremely aggressive action, then I believe all responsibility lies with the owner of that dog. Either rehabilitate them if possible or keep them from people or other dogs.

Having a dog like that whether in public or in a private home where they have an opportunity to do damage to people or dogs is irresponsible in my opinion. 

Their dog should not become everyone else's problem or fear.

People should be able to come and go in public without fear from known aggressive dogs. If I am invited to a provate place as a guest I should not have to worry about my safety.

Trying to make the public responsible, no matter what name is used to describe them (eg. idiots etc...) is not right. You also jeaporidize the dogs life by not confining or controlling.

People who choose to keep these dogs should not be making excuses based on the stupid publics behavior. They need to focus on how to handle and confine their dogs.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Well said


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## NewbieShepherdGirl (Jan 7, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> If I am invited to a provate place as a guest I should not have to worry about my safety.
> .


I agree for the most part with your post but I would also like to add that if you are a guest you should also comply with the requests of your hosts. If host says leave them be, then leave them be; it's respectful (kind of like taking your shoes off at the door if the person doesn't like shoes worn in the house or any other rule/request they have) and it also helps ensure you don't have to worry about your safety.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I'm sorry, but if you are a guest in someone's house, you don't get drunk and act like a boorish macho man, ignore when your host says "Don't touch", and force your host to take a bite that was meant for you. That's almost criminal, and it's neither the host nor the dog at fault, yet the assinine boor could sue the pants off the host had he been bitten. It's a crazy world.

Whether I could harbor such a dog myself, I don't know; I personally wouldn't want the liability.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

NewbieShepherdGirl said:


> I agree for the most part with your post but I would also like to add that if you are a guest you should also comply with the requests of your hosts. If host says leave them be, then leave them be; it's respectful (kind of like taking your shoes off at the door if the person doesn't like shoes worn in the house or any other rule/request they have) and it also helps ensure you don't have to worry about your safety.


Agreed, but I wouldn't have guests that wouldn't comply. They'd be out the door. I've had two people, close to me, that have done things that were unacceptable with Bailey. First I told them to immediately stop it and then explained my reasoning.  They both complied. If they wouldn't have, I'd demand they leave. My dog lives here, my guests don't. Don't come here if you don't like three dogs and a cat running around. 

I hate the idea of having to crate an animal for guests. I never want to have to do that. I want dogs who are friendly with guests, or who are at least well behaved and ignore the guest. 

I do hope and pray Bailey never shows the kind of behavior, Lord Forbid that he bites anyone, and I'm forced to crate him or separate him just because people are here. Talk about making dog ownership a DRAG. BUT, if the day comes that I can't work thru it, can't train it out, I'd do that rather than risk a bite. I agree completely in that once you know your dog is a bite risk, you take mega, ultra precautions to ensure it doesn't happen again.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Freestep said:


> I'm sorry, but if you are a guest in someone's house, you don't get drunk and act like a boorish macho man, ignore when your host says "Don't touch", and force your host to take a bite that was meant for you. That's almost criminal, and it's neither the host nor the dog at fault, yet the assinine boor could sue the pants off the host had he been bitten. It's a crazy world.
> 
> Whether I could harbor such a dog myself, I don't know; I personally wouldn't want the liability.


In a perfect world Freestep guests would not do that. Nor would young people die of alcohol poisining from drinking too much just to get into a fraternity or sorority. Off topic but in the university near us they had 3 rapes within a month or so when school began. All parties in all 3 cases were known.
They could not prosecute anyone because they were all too drunk to remember clearly.


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## NewbieShepherdGirl (Jan 7, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> In a perfect world Freestep guests would not do that. Nor would young people die of alcohol poisining from drinking too much just to get into a fraternity or sorority. Off topic but in the university near us they had 3 rapes within a month or so when school began. All parties in all 3 cases were known.
> They could not prosecute anyone because they were all too drunk to remember clearly.


It's not just in a perfect world they wouldn't do that. That's like saying, "Well in a perfect world those three rapes wouldn't have happened, but what are you gonna do? They were invited into the house." No. In the regular world you can expect guests to adhere to the rules/and requests of the house. Being drunk does not excuse people from inappropriate/foolish behavior of any kind and other people are not responsible when, after they've tried to advise the drunk person not to do something, something bad happens. 

And I'm sorry but I've been drunk and you know what you're doing.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Jack's Dad said:


> In a perfect world Freestep guests would not do that. Nor would young people die of alcohol poisining from drinking too much just to get into a fraternity or sorority. Off topic but in the university near us they had 3 rapes within a month or so when school began. All parties in all 3 cases were known.
> They could not prosecute anyone because they were all too drunk to remember clearly.


A dog is still a dog. If a child slams himself down on top of a dog, the child might be bitten. If a drunken fool does not listen to what he is told, he might cause an accident. If an idiot is pushing past me to get to my dog and gets himself bitten, that is on him. I might have to pay for it, and my dogs might have to pay for it, but one can only be so careful. We do not have English Setters, we have German Shepherds. And while they are smart, loyal, obedient, and courageous, they also have teeth.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

NewbieShepherdGirl said:


> It's not just in a perfect world they wouldn't do that. That's like saying, "Well in a perfect world those three rapes wouldn't have happened, but what are you gonna do? They were invited into the house." No. In the regular world you can expect guests to adhere to the rules/and requests of the house. Being drunk does not excuse people from inappropriate/foolish behavior of any kind and other people are not responsible when, after they've tried to advise the drunk person not to do something, something bad happens.
> 
> And I'm sorry but I've been drunk and you know what you're doing.


I would like for this not to turn back into that thread. I never excused the drunk and don't excuse anyones behavior because they are drunk or drugged.

The whole point is that there are all different people in the world and some behave poorly. 

You will meet those people from time to time and if you have a dog who bites it is your responsibility to confine or contain that dog or suffer the consequences. That could be financial liability, (huge financial liability) and your dog could wind up being put to sleep.

So if you have a high risk dog and it bites someone no matter how (stupid) they are you will wish you had not tried to make others responsible.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

chelle said:


> Agreed, but I wouldn't have guests that wouldn't comply. They'd be out the door. I've had two people, close to me, that have done things that were unacceptable with Bailey. First I told them to immediately stop it and then explained my reasoning. They both complied. If they wouldn't have, I'd demand they leave. My dog lives here, my guests don't. Don't come here if you don't like three dogs and a cat running around.
> 
> I hate the idea of having to crate an animal for guests. I never want to have to do that. I want dogs who are friendly with guests, or who are at least well behaved and ignore the guest.


That is where I differ from you. We have many friends who are not dog people who visit regularly. Even though it is my home and my dogs love people I still respect their needs....which are sometimes to lock the dogs up as they are uneasy with them around. I would not offend my friends for the sake of my dogs. They get a bone to chew on and are not offended in any way by being put aside. My dogs are happy and safe, our friends (and in most cases their children) are happy and safe.....everybody wins.
If I had a dog that everyone couldn't interact with safely well that dog would not be given the chance to fail. It would be removed for the evening or day until everyone had gone as telling people to not pat the dog is just not enough and whether or not you think it should be is not really the issue....the fact is people are people and they make mistakes, overstep the boundaries, don't listen or simply forget.....that is just a fact of life.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

selzer said:


> A dog is still a dog. If a child slams himself down on top of a dog, the child might be bitten. If a drunken fool does not listen to what he is told, he might cause an accident. If an idiot is pushing past me to get to my dog and gets himself bitten, that is on him. I might have to pay for it, and my dogs might have to pay for it, but one can only be so careful. We do not have English Setters, we have German Shepherds. And while they are smart, loyal, obedient, and courageous, they also have teeth.


A wise woman once told me. You can do anything you want in life as long as you are willing to pay the consequences. So for all who are willing, go for it.

Dogs who bite will bite. A drunk or idiot or child falling on them is not a requirement.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Jack's Dad said:


> A wise woman once told me. You can do anything you want in life as long as you are willing to pay the consequences. So for all who are willing, go for it.
> 
> Dogs who bite will bite. A drunk or idiot or child falling on them is not a requirement.


Any dog will bite give the proper circumstances. One needs to know their dog's threshold for biting and do their best to keep their animal safe. At the same time, if someone does something incredibly stupid, possibly violent, and unpredictable, it is unfair to expect the dog to act like a bunny rabbit.

One can argue that we must be 10 steps ahead of every person within striking distance. And all of us should strive to that, at the same time, we can't lock the dogs away completely from any possible human contact, or cut out all their teeth because they might bite someone one day.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Hopefully, we share our lives with people who care about our safety as much as they care about their dogs. Sometimes we don't know our dogs will bite until someone falls on them even though we think we know our dog REALLY WELL. I haven't asked anyone to fall on my dog to find out so it's a mystery until that happens. So far, she has given every indication that she would not bite dog nor man to save her life. But I won't really know if that is true until someone falls on her or she dies, at which time it will be moot (not mute).


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

selzer said:


> Any dog will bite give the proper circumstances. One needs to know their dog's threshold for biting and do their best to keep their animal safe. At the same time, if someone does something incredibly stupid, possibly violent, and unpredictable, it is unfair to expect the dog to act like a bunny rabbit.
> 
> One can argue that we must be 10 steps ahead of every person within striking distance. And all of us should strive to that, at the same time, we can't lock the dogs away completely from any possible human contact, or cut out all their teeth because they might bite someone one day.


Yes you can lock them away selzer.
If you read the original post I already gave them (aggressive/biting dogs) the first bite. If they have alredy bitten then I'm not sympathetic to the owner who allows the possibility again.


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## NewbieShepherdGirl (Jan 7, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> I would like for this not to turn back into that thread. I never excused the drunk and don't excuse anyones behavior because they are drunk or drugged.
> 
> The whole point is that there are all different people in the world and some behave poorly.
> 
> ...


And I get that. I really do. When Sasha first became comfortable and started to feel safe she started resource guarding me pretty heavy and after she really moved toward someone aggressively she was put on a leash anytime I saw someone come over because I didn't want to risk a bite. That being said, I was in the back room and my cousin just dropped by one time and Sasha backed her out the door. Short of her wearing a muzzle every second there wasn't too much I could have done. It was in the evening, people don't just drop by our house usually, and so I had no way to prepare for that. 

I think yes, it is our responsibility as dog owners to protect ourselves and our dogs. I also think it is the responsibility of the public to protect themselves. Whether they do it or not is on them, but I don't think that we should all walk on pins and needles in our own home or in places we have just as much right to be in as anyone else. We have our personal responsibility and other people have theirs. I don't go around accosting other people's children. I don't assume it's ok to grab their babies just because people generally like to hold babies and thus it should be ok.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

PaddyD said:


> Hopefully, we share our lives with people who care about our safety as much as they care about their dogs. Sometimes we don't know our dogs will bite until someone falls on them even though we think we know our dog REALLY WELL.


Very nicely put


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

My brother has a bomb proof dog. She is a smooth collie. A very nice dog. Runs free on the farm, and his children and grand children move in and out of his house with regularity, his wife is one of fifteen, so there is all kinds of siblings, cousins, and relatives of every degree around. He plays in a band and band members come, and nosey nieghbor's etc. 

The dog is good with other critters, good with people of all shapes, sizes, and ages. 

She got hit by a car -- they let her run free. She dislocated her hip. My brother PICKED her up to take her to the vet. She bit his face good. 

Not her fault. Sorry. This does not make her more likely to bite other people. When you hurt a dog bad, when they are scared or injured, they might bite. When my dog was injured good, I made him walk into a crate and then my friend and I lifted the crate into his car. When my dogs have something that might hurt bad at the vet, like plucking the hair around a wound, or cutting a broken toenail, or lifting them for x-rays, I suggest they muzzle the dog, because I do not want the dog to bite even if they are hurt in the process of some type of vet work.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

selzer said:


> My brother has a bomb proof dog. She is a smooth collie. A very nice dog. Runs free on the farm, and his children and grand children move in and out of his house with regularity, his wife is one of fifteen, so there is all kinds of siblings, cousins, and relatives of every degree around. He plays in a band and band members come, and nosey nieghbor's etc.
> 
> The dog is good with other critters, good with people of all shapes, sizes, and ages.
> 
> ...


This is so true. Sometimes a dog isn't biting out of aggression. He/she is just saying, "HEY, you are hurting me, *******".


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

That's not the type of situation I'm talking about here. It's about fearful reactive dogs or aggressive dominant dogs who bite.

It's not meant to be about a dog who just got run over by the school bus and bites someone who tries to help it.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Jack's Dad said:


> That's not the type of situation I'm talking about here. It's about fearful reactive dogs or aggressive dominant dogs who bite.
> 
> It's not meant to be about a dog who just got run over by the school bus and bites someone who tries to help it.


A fearful reactive dog just has a lower threshold. It THINKs it's in danger and might as well be getting harmed. It is just doing 'preventative maintenance'. An aggressive dominant dog is a whole nuther thing and people often confuse the two.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

PaddyD said:


> A fearful reactive dog just has a lower threshold. It THINKs it's in danger and might as well be getting harmed. It is just doing 'preventative maintenance'. An aggressive dominant dog is a whole nuther thing and people often confuse the two.


It's not confusing to the person who recieves the bite.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

<<------ reviewing the OP.

"People should be able to come and go in public without fear from known aggressive dogs. "
ayup, I agree


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If a dog has bitten. And I mean bitten out of fear-aggressiveness due to weak nerves, not injury or legitimate fear like being sucked under in an icy pond, or dominant aggression, then the owners of that dog need to be hyper-vigilant to ensure that dog does not bite again.

And I think that for the most part, people should do a whole lot more to prevent that first bite from ever happening. 

But if we want our dogs to take a chunk out of crime, if we want him to perform his GSD duties if there is a robber or rapist, then we cannot really come down too hard on the dog if it takes a chunk out of a drunken idiot who is being drunk and disorderly with regards to the dog and his owner. Most cops that get injured on the job, get those injuries in domestic violence calls where alcohol and drugs are a factor. A drunken idiot is a really good look alike for someone who needs their butt chewed. Expecting the dog to get that right every time is a bit much.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

selzer said:


> If a dog has bitten. And I mean bitten out of fear-aggressiveness due to weak nerves, not injury or legitimate fear like being sucked under in an icy pond, or dominant aggression, then the owners of that dog need to be hyper-vigilant to ensure that dog does not bite again.
> 
> And I think that for the most part, people should do a whole lot more to prevent that first bite from ever happening.
> 
> But if we want our dogs to take a chunk out of crime, if we want him to perform his GSD duties if there is a robber or rapist, then we cannot really come down too hard on the dog if it takes a chunk out of a drunken idiot who is being drunk and disorderly with regards to the dog and his owner. Most cops that get injured on the job, get those injuries in domestic violence calls where alcohol and drugs are a factor. A drunken idiot is a really good look alike for someone who needs their butt chewed. Expecting the dog to get that right every time is a bit much.


Being as I have been known to be a drunken idiot I hope that I don't have to pay for my folly with an extra hole in my butt.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

PaddyD said:


> Being as I have been known to be a drunken idiot I hope that I don't have to pay for my folly with an extra hole in my butt.


:rofl: You and me both.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

PaddyD said:


> Being as I have been known to be a drunken idiot I hope that I don't have to pay for my folly with an extra hole in my butt.


I have absolutely no patience for drunken idiots. Folly is one thing. Having a good time is one thing. Not stopping when someone tells you to, well, that is when you deserve whatever you get.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Once *you know* you have a dog that bites, there's no excuse for not muzzling the dog when other people are around, or when the dog is going out in public. It's not cruel and it doesn't hurt the dog, I don't understand why more people with biters don't do it.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Whiteshepherds said:


> Once *you know* you have a dog that bites, there's no excuse for not muzzling the dog when other people are around, or when the dog is going out in public. It's not cruel and it doesn't hurt the dog, I don't understand why more people with biters don't do it.


:thumbup:


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## DTS (Oct 19, 2010)

im kind of on the fence about this. my dog is fearful. she is 100 times better than she was, but she still barks from time to time at people who get to close to her mainly men. when we are out im on guard. mentally. she has never tried to bite, offered to bite, showed teeth, etc. but she is a dog. when she barks, she is corrected imidiately and normally quiets down. if we were in a store and some guy came out of nowhere grabbed her face and said oh wow what a cute dog and/or accidently stepped on her tail in the process and she flipped out and bit him, i would be at fault. and i know that. sure, should he have not done that... absolutely. but i shouldnt be bringing my fearful dog in public places. i made the choice to not research, and get a puppy without thinking about nerves, lines, etc. i could argue i didn't know. but in the end i bought a weak nerved dog and now its my responsibility to protect people from her and her from people. 
ive been thinking about this lately.. i dont really bring her places to train anymore besides when we go for training because people are respectful there. 
but in the end, a dog is a dog. if she feels threatned she isnt going to come to me and say mommy im scared what do i do? she's going to do what nature has told her to do and fight. in the wild dogs dont call the police in the event of a dispute. they fight it out (or so i assume). if i would have done the research, saved my money, and bought a pup from a reputable breeder, socialized, and put the pup in OB asap i wouldn't have to be on guard all the time.
but it is what it is. i don't think she would ever bite. but all dogs have teeth and the ability to use them. 
this is just how i feel with my own dog.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

DTS.

Your post is refreshing. You at least understand what you are dealing with and are doing your best. You also are not making excuses or blaming someone else.

Training can help to some degree and giving your dog something to do that it can do in a secure manner well help. Good luck with your dog.

I've seen enough posts about fearful and reactive dogs that people are dealing with. If I hadn't owned GSD's before I don't think I would buy one these days. There are way too many goofy ones out there.


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## BahCan (May 29, 2010)

I totally agree with Jack's Dad's post on this topic.

Having owned a very dominant aggressive Rottweiler, who had never bitten but absolutely given the oppurtunity would have shredded anybody he could. It was my responsibility to not only protect people, but to protect that dog by not putting him in any kind of position to fail.

When people came over he was put in his crate in another room, it didn't matter who it was or how dog savy they were, it was my responsibilty to protect the guest and the dog. Why risk having him mingle with the people, no matter how many times you ask people to act a certain way around your dog, it only takes that one slip up to end with a bite, so why risk it, if you do, it's your fault if something happens, nobody elses.

He was not taken out in public, he was taken everyday outside the city to my friends acerage, there he could run free and be a dog and be happy, and train and have fun. He did not need to be around people, he did not like being around people so why put him in that position where he will bite, again its the owners responsibility.

It's a lot of stress and a lot work and responsibility to own dogs like this, and I can tell you that as much as I loved that dog and had a great bond with him and miss him everyday, It was like a big weight was lifted off my shoulders when he went to the bridge.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

If you have a dog that bites and people into your home, it is your responsibility and yours alone to make sure the situation doesn't happen to allow a person to get bit. 
Doesn't matter whether you have invited them or the roommate, or the husband, or wife or kids, doesn't matter at all. A person has been allowed to come into your home and YOU have to make sure that person is safe. If you know your dog bites, then if a repairman comes in, do you put them away in the yard or crate? I bet you do, so its no different for anyone else.
I dislike drinking and the way it makes people behave but that is me, I don't allow drinking in my home. If a person can't respect my request to not drink, then they are either sent out the door or not invited.
But, making excuses for a dog biting a person in your home is not responsible. If you know your dog bites, then you need to make sure there is 100% no chance of the dog being around the people. If its an adult dog, it can hold its bladder for 10 or 12 hours if needed, so I am sure the people will leave in that time span. If not, then no excuses, put a muzzle on it.if its a puppy and is showing aggression to the extent of biting people or you, then thats a bigger issue altogether.
Bottom line, no excuses, its your dog, your responsibility to keep the people and public safe from being bitten.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

If the dog bit previously - yes, you're responsible to make sure it never happens again. Like they say hurt me once shame on you hurt me twice shame on me.

But I don't recall the other thread's dog having a history of biting. If someone was acting drunk and belligerent in my house and I wasn't able to remove him or the dog from the situation I'm not sure what my dog will do to be honest.

He's social and happy with everyone but he's still a GSD and has a set of teeth, so yes he can bite. Does that mean I have to lock him up every time someone walks in my house? No. And people should respect the house rules or they should be immediately shown the door.

In regards to complaining about other people walking their dogs off-leash - you're wrong. An owner of a DA dog should not take their dog to off-leash areas but they have just as much of a right as you to walk their dog in leashed areas without constantly having to look out for off-leash dogs. That's what the laws are made for. If you're dog is off-leash where he shouldn't be and he gets bitten by a DA dog who was on-leash who's at fault? It's like this: I make a left turn driving and some guy who's speeding hits my car. Is it his fault because he was speeding? No, because if I didn't make the left turn none of this would've happened. Is it the owner's fault your dog got bit? no, if he was leashed like he's supposed to none of this would have happened.

there has to be an equal distribution of blame and it's unfair to outcast those with dogs who have some issues they are getting through. 

Now, I'm definitely not condoning encouraging such behavior or harboring a vicious animal. The owner should take any steps necessary to rehabilitate the dog. But while he's going through the process, he should be protected from off-leash dogs in areas where there are leash laws just like the rest of us.

If an off-leash dog runs after a child in the park and the child is deathly afraid of dogs and falls while running away damaging his head, are you going to tell the parent "you should teach your child to not run away from dogs?" yes and no, because your dog had no business being off-leash if there are laws against it.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Freestep said:


> I'm sorry, but if you are a guest in someone's house, you don't get drunk and act like a boorish macho man, ignore when your host says "Don't touch", and force your host to take a bite that was meant for you. That's almost criminal, and it's neither the host nor the dog at fault, yet the assinine boor could sue the pants off the host had he been bitten. It's a crazy world.


I agree with you.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

On the same token - how far exactly do we take this "your responsibility to keep guests safe from the dog" thing? 

Suppose my roommate invited his friends over, and they all get drunk and gang up on me (physically) while I was minding my own business and my dog protects me and ends up biting one of the "guests", would you suggest I have the dog destroyed or muzzle him?

Suppose my roommate invited his friends over, and they all get drunk and gang up on the dog. they corner him, spray him with water guns, and one of them goes and kicks it. The dog defends himself and bites one of the people. Clearly I'm RESPONSIBLE FOR PROTECTING THE GUESTS AT MY HOUSE and I should have this dog seriously evaluated.

Unfortunately, I believe in both cases AC will take your dog away and these people can actually sue you for damages. Disgusting world we live in. 

All I'm saying is there should be a curve here - if your dog is friendly towards strangers and is generally well balanced and well behaved and has to protect himself from one of these drunk "guests" there's more going on than just me being irresponsible. I've been responsible enough to socialize him and make sure he's level-headed, friendly, and confident but would you suggest I turn him into a ragdoll? There should be mutual respect and respect for the house rules. If my sibling pushed the drunk "guest" away after he got too rough with him, would you suggest I send him to juvenile school? Sorry, but IMO the only thing the owner didn't do right was protecting her dog, **** that drunk guest. I would have made him leave and even called the cops to escort him out - my duty is protecting my family and my dog is part of that.

All I'm saying is - don't always blame the dog and don't get a GSD or another powerful/protective/aloof breed if you wanted a golden or a lab all along


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Originally Posted by PaddyD 
Being as I have been known to be a drunken idiot I hope that I don't have to pay for my folly with an extra hole in my butt.


selzer said:


> I have absolutely no patience for drunken idiots. Folly is one thing. Having a good time is one thing. Not stopping when someone tells you to, well, that is when you deserve whatever you get.


I think I have just had my butt handed to me.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

You can own a GSD that is not aggressive and aloof with strangers, just like you can own a Pit Bull that is not aggressive and I have seen Goldens and Labs that are so vicious that they are a danger to everyone.
I know, I know, the standard calls for GSD to be aloof and wary of strangers, does this mean they have to bite them?
I guess my question is this: for all the folks on here who see nothing wrong with a GSD that is aloof to strangers, will bite because of being over reactive, protective, nerotic or whatever label that is put on a dog like this and the suggestions are made to get a trainer, get a behaviorist or whatever help is necessary to take care of this dog, do not euthanize it, what are we supposed to do because our GSD happens to like people and gets along with everyone?? Euthanize them because they do not fit the standard? Euthanize them because if we wanted a friendly dog we should have gotten a lab or golden? I mean come on, maybe some of us don't want our GSD to be nasty biting mean dogs that we have to lock away when people come over. If you want to own a dog like that, that is fine. But, the people on this forum who keep commenting that "you should own a lab or golden if you want a friendly dog, not a GSD" should we take them to the rescue and say" we need to turn this GSD in because he likes people???? Give me a break.
Not all of us want a dog or the responsibility that goes with owning a biting dog, whether a GSD or a Pit or a Boxer or a little ankle biter. So, we are happy to own a GSD that happens to have the genetics to be friendly. On this forum, it seems like that is a sin..........


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

wyominggrandma said:


> You can own a GSD that is not aggressive and aloof with strangers, just like you can own a Pit Bull that is not aggressive and I have seen Goldens and Labs that are so vicious that they are a danger to everyone.
> I know, I know, the standard calls for GSD to be aloof and wary of strangers, does this mean they have to bite them?
> I guess my question is this: for all the folks on here who see nothing wrong with a GSD that is aloof to strangers, will bite because of being over reactive, protective, nerotic or whatever label that is put on a dog like this and the suggestions are made to get a trainer, get a behaviorist or whatever help is necessary to take care of this dog, do not euthanize it, what are we supposed to do because our GSD happens to like people and gets along with everyone?? Euthanize them because they do not fit the standard? Euthanize them because if we wanted a friendly dog we should have gotten a lab or golden? I mean come on, maybe some of us don't want our GSD to be nasty biting mean dogs that we have to lock away when people come over. If you want to own a dog like that, that is fine. But, the people on this forum who keep commenting that "you should own a lab or golden if you want a friendly dog, not a GSD" should we take them to the rescue and say" we need to turn this GSD in because he likes people???? Give me a break.
> Not all of us want a dog or the responsibility that goes with owning a biting dog, whether a GSD or a Pit or a Boxer or a little ankle biter. So, we are happy to own a GSD that happens to have the genetics to be friendly. On this forum, it seems like that is a sin..........


Don't just cling to the last sentence of my post  Try to read the whole thing and put it in perspective. My dog welcomes strangers into the house, is confident and outgoing, but does not immediately become best friends with strangers. What's wrong with that? He's not human / dog aggressive, he doesn't bite just because, and he's not neurotic / nasty / biting / or mean. I don't have to lock him up whenever someone comes over. If anyone got drunk in my house and started agitating him - I mean in what way is this OK?? That's what I'm getting at. In what way is it ok for someone to disrespect the house rules, agitate a dog (who I understand is a stable, sound dog - maybe I missed the part where he's not?) to the point that the dog has to defend himself, and then have the dog and owner be at fault... Sorry but I just don't understand, maybe I'm missing something...


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

wyominggrandma said:


> what are we supposed to do because our GSD happens to like people and gets along with everyone?? Euthanize them because they do not fit the standard? Euthanize them because if we wanted a friendly dog we should have gotten a lab or golden?


I don't see anyone saying anything close to that.

What I see people saying is that they personally prefer a dog that is aloof with strangers. That is why they got a GSD rather than a Golden. Some might be slightly disappointed if their GSD is friendly and solicitous of strangers' attention. I am not one of those people. I personally see nothing wrong with a friendly GSD. It's not my preference that my dog be overjoyed to see a stranger and jump all over them licking their face, but I'd *much* prefer that to a dog that bites people.

And I have to say, as a groomer, I don't mind dogs (including GSDs) that are friendly with strangers, because *I* am the stranger, at least at first, and I'm going to be getting into the dog's space and getting very personal. I don't worry about it if the dog licks my face. If the dog ignores me, I don't worry about it, but I am mindful. If the dog shrinks away from me and hides behind the owner, that is not "reserve" or "aloofness", that is fear and anxiety. That is the dog I have to be careful with. 

In this society, IMO, there is nothing wrong with having a friendly GSD. I'm not saying we should start breeding them to have Golden-like temperament; my personal preference is that a GSD should ingore non-threatening strangers, but if my dog licks the hand of a guest, I'm not going to be upset about it!


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

My question is ...

What ever happened to PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY - as in people are responsible for their OWN actions (and the consequences of them)???

Guess it's gone the way of the Dodo bird and Common Sense - they are both now extinct.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

For the second time, this thresd was not about any one specific other thread. It was in response to a number of threads over a period of time and a few recent ones. 

I'm tired of hearing about how it's everyone else's fault.

If you have a GSD that is known to have been extremely aggressive or has already taken a bite out of somebody or another dog then you have a responsibility to make sure it doesn't happen again.

I don't agree that people who have these dogs have the same right to go anywhere someone else with non aggressive dogs go. Nor do you have an automatic right to take them in public places knowing what they can do.
If you do so anyway and something happens then you deserve to get sued and your dog PTS.

Some are not using common sense. You could legally keep a loaded gun in your house in a closet. Then the neighbor kid is visiting and told to stay out of your room and closet. He/she doesn't and shoots themselves. Explain to the police how it is not your fault because you told them not to go in there. Explain to the neighbors how their (stupid) kid went and shot themselves after you specifically told them not to go there.

Someone will now come on and tell me what a stupid example this is, It happened right here where I live about three years ago.

A reactive aggressive GSD is like a loaded gun. The owners responsibility.

I also am tired of the comparrison to Goldens, or Labs.. A properly bred, trained, socialized GSD is as safe as any other dog.

A poorly bred, trained or socialized one can be an accident waiting to happen. The main difference in dogs is that GSD's, Dobies, Rotties and others can do serious damage to a human or dog.

I've had both Labs and GSD's over the years and had no difficulty with either breed.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I think the problem is that people with unstable dogs want to have the same kind of fun that the rest of us have. They see the well balanced/mannered dogs going around everywhere and they want their dog to experience that too. I bring my dog everywhere I go, he will look at another dog that is barking his head off at him as if it is playful even when it is clearly aggressive. He is so self-confident that nothing gets to him. He knows he can do damage, but never does because its just not him.

I walked into a pet store one day, and the first customer that saw me and him asked, "does he bite?" I don't know why she had this question, but she did. Why in the world would I bring a dog that bites into a public place like a pet store? Has someone done this before? Maybe, but its those people that ruin the fun for the rest of us by thinking their dogs are stable enough to handle those kinds of places.

This happens all the time, people want to push their dogs into situations where they shouldn't be. There is a guy in our training class with a partially reactive/DA GSD. Although the dog has gotten much better, the guy still wants to push him and do things off leash with him that the rest of us do. Its scary knowing that this dog can just turn and go after one of our dogs at any second, and although he has never done this there is always a chance. I've seen this dog react but it was always on leash and the handler always handled it perfectly, but knowing that he has those issues, its upsetting to see him let him off leash for longer recalls/down/sits.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

ayoitzrimz said:


> In what way is it ok for someone to disrespect the house rules, agitate a dog (who I understand is a stable, sound dog - maybe I missed the part where he's not?) to the point that the dog has to defend himself, and then have the dog and owner be at fault... Sorry but I just don't understand, maybe I'm missing something...


It is not ok but how difficult is it to throw the bum out or put the dog up.

My dogs are not aggressive but not alll wiggly either. I have a hard time imagining jack biting someone but give certain circumstances I suppose it is possible. For that reason and that some people are not comfortable with dogs or GSD's in particular I would kennel or crate rather than risk a problem.


Laurie: I never said others should not take personal responsibility such as your off leash dogs situations. Wishing it doesn't make it so. If you go enough places with your dogs you will encounter all manner of people not acting the way you would like. If you can find a way to make people act the way you want them to please let us all know how to do that.

In the meantime your aggressive dog is your personal responsibility. I think your swearing at people before they get to you is asking for trouble but if it works for you that's great.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

ayoitzrimz said:


> On the same token - how far exactly do we take this "your responsibility to keep guests safe from the dog" thing?
> 
> Suppose my roommate invited his friends over, and they all get drunk and gang up on me (physically) while I was minding my own business and my dog protects me and ends up biting one of the "guests", would you suggest I have the dog destroyed or muzzle him?


Suppose my roommate invited his friends over, and they all get drunk and gang up on the dog. they corner him, spray him with water guns, and one of them goes and kicks it. The dog defends himself and bites one of the people. Clearly I'm RESPONSIBLE FOR PROTECTING THE GUESTS AT MY HOUSE and I should have this dog seriously evaluated.[/QUOTE]

Seriously????
If you're spending your life living with people who spend their time getting drunk, physically ganging up on people or tormenting dogs you need to get new friends. 



ayoitzrimz said:


> All I'm saying is - don't always blame the dog and don't get a GSD or another powerful/protective/aloof breed if you wanted a golden or a lab all along


Again, once you KNOW your dog has a bite history and once you realize you have a dog that has to be MANAGED you've left the world of powerful, protective and aloof. Instead you've got fearful, leary and reactive, and it's your job to make sure that there is zero chance of that dog biting someone.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

martemchik said:


> I think the problem is that people with unstable dogs want to have the same kind of fun that the rest of us have. They see the well balanced/mannered dogs going around everywhere and they want their dog to experience that too. I bring my dog everywhere I go, he will look at another dog that is barking his head off at him as if it is playful even when it is clearly aggressive. He is so self-confident that nothing gets to him. He knows he can do damage, but never does because its just not him.
> 
> I walked into a pet store one day, and the first customer that saw me and him asked, "does he bite?" *I don't know why she had this question, but she did. Why in the world would I bring a dog that bites into a public place like a pet store?* Has someone done this before? Maybe, but its those people that ruin the fun for the rest of us by thinking their dogs are stable enough to handle those kinds of places.
> 
> This happens all the time, people want to push their dogs into situations where they shouldn't be. There is a guy in our training class with a partially reactive/DA GSD. Although the dog has gotten much better, the guy still wants to push him and do things off leash with him that the rest of us do. Its scary knowing that this dog can just turn and go after one of our dogs at any second, and although he has never done this there is always a chance. I've seen this dog react but it was always on leash and the handler always handled it perfectly, but knowing that he has those issues, its upsetting to see him let him off leash for longer recalls/down/sits.


All of the above.
There is a guy who brings his very DA big male GSD to the park (not dog park) where many people go to walk their dogs. Everyone knows him now and goes the other way when they see him coming. He does keep his dog leashed and pulls off to the side when someone passes. However, we have all been wondering when the leash would break ... until it DID and the dog charged me and my female GSD. Fortunately, I faced him down until his owner caught up and grabbed his collar.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> My question is ...
> 
> What ever happened to PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY - as in people are responsible for their OWN actions (and the consequences of them)???
> 
> Guess it's gone the way of the Dodo bird and Common Sense - they are both now extinct.


:thumbup:


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

BahCan said:


> I totally agree with Jack's Dad's post on this topic.
> 
> *Having owned a very dominant aggressive Rottweiler, who had never bitten but absolutely given the oppurtunity would have shredded anybody he could. It was my responsibility to not only protect people, but to protect that dog by not putting him in any kind of position to fail.*
> 
> ...


I LOVE this post. It should be repeated over and over and over.

I must be crazy, or stupid - maybe both, but MY dog is MY responsibility. Everything she does is MY responsibility. She is NOT people aggressive. I don't understand the "first bite" vs "next bite". There should never be a first bite. There would have to be some indication that there was a chance of a bite happening. My dog HAS been fallen on, tripped over, had people in her face and space. She is extremely tolerant. This is what I want and need in a GSD. If there was ever an indication my dog "might" bite, I would do everything to make sure that first bite never happened

My dog is DA. I have owned her for 12 of her 14 years. She has never hurt another dog. I did not allow that to happen. While she couldn't go everywhere, she has had a wonderful life. I have managed her for all these years - and that was for DA. There isn't a snowballs chance that I would ever allow my dog the opportunity to hurt a human being. I don't care how stupid the human beings are.

Because......It is my responsibility to keep my dog and others safe.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Nothing wrong with the type of GSD that is friendly but not overly friendly either. What I was saying is the number of times people say "get a golden or Lab if you want a friendly dogs, GSD should not be that way".. My girl is very friendly. I am glad she is that way. Maybe she doesn't fit the standard as the temperament, but at least I have no worries about her biting someone or attacking another dog. I am glad, but that doesn't make it bad for me to like her, just the same as it doesn't make it bad if you want a GSD that you have to lock up when someone comes over. 
Each person deals with their dog their way, and if you want a biting dog, that is your decision, just don't make the rest of us feel like we are not the owners of "true" GSD because they like people. 
However, no matter the reasons your dog might bite , the owner is responsible no matter what the circumstances. If the dog bites someone because he looked cross eyed at the dog, or because he walked hunched over, or because the drunk was bugging him, the owner put the dog in contact with the 'bad'person, whether walking on the street, walking at a dog park, walking the dog through a house full of people. It doesn't matter, if you own a dog, mean or friendly, scared or tough, big or little, you OWN the dog and nobody should have to be leary to walk on the street or go into a house invited and fear being bitten by YOUR dog. 
You need to keep your dog safe and the public safe is the dog is going to be in contact with humans.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

wyominggrandma said:


> You can own a GSD that is not aggressive and aloof with strangers, just like you can own a Pit Bull that is not aggressive and I have seen Goldens and Labs that are so vicious that they are a danger to everyone.
> I know, I know, the standard calls for GSD to be aloof and wary of strangers, does this mean they have to bite them?
> I guess my question is this: for all the folks on here who see nothing wrong with a GSD that is aloof to strangers, will bite because of being over reactive, protective, nerotic or whatever label that is put on a dog like this and the suggestions are made to get a trainer, get a behaviorist or whatever help is necessary to take care of this dog, do not euthanize it, what are we supposed to do because our GSD happens to like people and gets along with everyone?? Euthanize them because they do not fit the standard? Euthanize them because if we wanted a friendly dog we should have gotten a lab or golden? I mean come on, maybe some of us don't want our GSD to be nasty biting mean dogs that we have to lock away when people come over. If you want to own a dog like that, that is fine. But, the people on this forum who keep commenting that "you should own a lab or golden if you want a friendly dog, not a GSD" should we take them to the rescue and say" we need to turn this GSD in because he likes people???? Give me a break.
> Not all of us want a dog or the responsibility that goes with owning a biting dog, whether a GSD or a Pit or a Boxer or a little ankle biter. So, we are happy to own a GSD that happens to have the genetics to be friendly. On this forum, it seems like that is a sin..........


Yes you CAN own a GSD that likes people, that loves everyone, that loves children, that is bomb proof -- almost. And that is wonderful. It is a testament of your research, your breeder, the lines, the litter order, the upbringing. Gold star to you. And I would LOVE to say that the majority of GSDs are like that, that unless you train them to be wary of strangers, they will go right up with all things wagging. 

If you want a dog that IS like that, you might want to consider a different breed. A breed that is not bred to guard sheep from human and animal predators, as well as military, police, and guard work. A breed that has been bred for over a century to retrieve a bird without doing more harm to it is one example of a breed that might make the perfect family pet. However, the popularity of these breeds have led to indiscriminate breeding practices and faulty temperament. But that does not mean that in theory, they would not be a better dog for someone who does not want the liability of having a dog that was bred for their ability to guard and protect.

If you bring Blitz home, and he loves people, and you socialize him well, and take him to classes, and take him around children and dogs and other pets, until he is an excellent citizen, that is awesome, you go to doggy day care, and dog parks, and have a revolving door in your home.

But if you bring Blitz home, and he is standoffish, aloof, does not readily trust strangers in your home, and foreign dogs in your yard, then you should not be putting the dog down because he requires work, exercise and training, more socialization, good containment, and maybe he will have to be kept away from some untrustworthy people down the line. 

If you get a Golden or a Lab from a pet store or shelter, do nothing with it, and it is unfriendly and needs to be muzzled, then you probably can wear that bewildered look on your face with good conscience. But if you get a GSD from a pet store or shelter (or many other breeders), do nothing with it, and it is unfriendly and needs to be muzzled, well I am sorry, but no one is going to fall off their chair in surprise.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> My question is ...
> 
> What ever happened to PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY - as in people are responsible for their OWN actions (and the consequences of them)???
> 
> Guess it's gone the way of the Dodo bird and Common Sense - *they are both now extinct.*


Yes, they are both extinct.....that is the world we all live in now....whether we like it or not.
Take a look at pony clubs.....over here they are all closing up shop.....insurance is just too expensive.....why.....because people put their kids on horses and if they fall off it is someones else's fault....just the way it is. So yes, we all agree with you BUT PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY is a thing of the past....like it or not.....


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Except I have the temperament that I want in a GSD, so I guess I am happy to have it both ways, its a GSD and she loves everyone.

But, back to the same thing, YOU and YOU alone are responsible for your dog and the way it acts towards humans. If it bites, its your responsibility to keep it away from situations where someone, including yourself will get bit. Doesn't matter what the circumstances, take responsiblity, quit making excuses and if your dog bites someone, own up to it.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I take full and total responsiblity for my animals. I am responsible for their safety, and the safety of those around my animals.

If I have guests over, my dogs are not in the house. If they are , they are crated. I have a hot wire around my fence - nobody reaches over a hot wire. I warn my guests not to pet the dogs. Will my dogs bite them? I can't be 100% sure. So I'm not taking any chances. I even have a 'Beware of Dog' sign on my sliding glass door - IN my house.

I even put my friendly mini doxie up - either crated or out in the yard. She won't bite, but she will take the opportunity to run out a door if it is left open. For her safety she is contained. 

If I am having a BBQ outside, I put the horses up. Everyone wants to pet the horses. For the safety of the horses and the folks that want to pet them, they are safely tucked into their stalls. Pet away. Nobody is getting stepped on, run over or kicked. Even though not one of my horses have ever kicked, I'm not taking any chances. For the safety of my horses, they are locked tightly way. So if someone leaves a gate open there is no run for the roses going on at my house. 

I even have special 'guest' treats for when I have guests who want to go out to the barn. I keep them in the house. It keeps the horses heads hanging over the gates for those who just have to rub their noses. They are large pellet sized so folks have to cup their hand to feed them. 

I try to take all precautions needed to keep everyone safe.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Nancy, You are a very wise woman. You must be from Texas. LOL!


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

I would like to think that I am one of the good guys in that I am very careful about where and how close to people/dogs I let my reactive GSD get. He has never bitten or air snapped or done anything except bark at people he does not know. He has never bitten a dog even though he has been accosted by aggressive dogs. The reason he has never bitten anyone (myself and my husband included) is because I am very, very careful about maintaining distance and using all the techniques I know to teach him that I make the decisions in his world and that if he's not sure of something, he needs to check in with me (for which he will be richly rewarded). 

But Niko is a work in progress (as am I) and so he is not a perfect gentleman in public. But how am I supposed to make any progress if I keep him locked up at home in the very small chance that he could bite someone/some dog? Jack's Dad, I hope you are not directing your original post towards those of us who are working very hard at slowly creating positive associations to the things which are our dog's triggers to a reactive episode. Rather, I hope you are expressing your frustration towards people who allow their reactive dogs to be put into situations that are known to result in aggressive and potentially dangerous behaviors. 

I would like my reactive dog to have a life outside of our property, but in order to achieve this, I must press upon his comfort zone and put him in public situations. Will I ever take him to a carnival or a dog park or a concert in the park with young children? No, absolutely not. But I think it's not unreasonable to want to be able to walk him through town along the sidewalk. And yes, there is a chance Niko is going to bark at something because I misjudged where his threshold was in that specific situation. But in no way am I presenting a danger to the general public by trying to rehabilitate my reactive dog.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Lilie, I do the same with the horses at my house, those big hoofs can do lots of damage to little feet and I also have those big alfalfa pellet treats"horse candy" cause they are so easy to hold and not have the mouth close by.
Good Karma, the thing is you know what you have and work closely so anything that goes on you are aware of. You know Niko is a work in progress and needs certain things to help, but you are also aware of what you have to do to make sure that no mistakes happen. From what I read on this forum and others, too many folks are not really all that aware of what sets their dogs off and then don't counter balance walking, training, etc with being able to watch what is happening before it happens.
Responsiblity is the key to owning animals, any animals. Being prepared and aware of what is going on ten or twenty feet in front of you or behind you makes for less incedents to happen to anyone.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Good_Karma said:


> I would like my reactive dog to have a life outside of our property, but in order to achieve this, I must press upon his comfort zone and put him in public situations.


I guess the point of the thread is that you understand that by doing this it is entirely your responsibility to prevent a bite etc from happening AND if it does it is on your head.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Good_Karma said:


> Jack's Dad, I hope you are not directing your original post towards those of us who are working very hard at slowly creating positive associations to the things which are our dog's triggers to a reactive episode. Rather, I hope you are expressing your frustration towards people who allow their reactive dogs to be put into situations that are known to result in aggressive and potentially dangerous behaviors.


The point of the thread is we are responsible for our dogs. Only you know your dogs potential for harm. As sparra said if you are working with your dog and for some reason something happens you are responsible.

Wyominggrandma, stevenzachsmom, Lilie and a coupe of people further back covered it pretty well. I just don't think all the excuses about those idiot people out there help. It takes the focus off where it really belongs and that is on the dog owner. It's not the dogs fault and you can't change "those" people out there. Who does that leave?


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

sparra said:


> I guess the point of the thread is that you understand that by doing this it is entirely your responsibility to prevent a bite etc from happening AND if it does it is on your head.


Absolutely. Which is why I keep distance in all situations, and time my outings so that there are a minimal amount of triggers (people/dogs). But I cannot always 100% control everything in the environment outside my house/property, so there does exist a chance that something could go wrong in my management techniques. It is a risk that anyone with a dog who posses teeth runs.

I would accept full responsibility if my dog were to bite a human. But I would not be willing to do the same if my dog bit another dog in an attempt to defend himself, although I would certainly try to prevent it by pepper spraying any dog who approached my dog, even if it looked "friendly". I figure washing pepper spray off a dog is better than having to put stitches in.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

this said it all.



Jack's Dad said:


> The point of the thread is we are responsible for our dogs.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

If I have guests over I won't put my dogs away, my friends and family know this and expect this they will be out with the friends & family, they know how to behave. Last year my parents invited their friends over for a holiday party and Molly & Tanner were VERY well behaved. They didn't jump, bark, get pushy or anything. But my dogs are MY responsibility. Unless some idiot tries provoke the dog or if they are like my uncle who brought over a strange male dog without telling us ahead of time. Otherwise I am responsible for my dog's actions. But I have rules and I expect my guests to follow them so no one gets hurt.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Jack's Dad said:


> The point of the thread is we are responsible for our dogs. *Only you know your dogs potential for harm.*


Or maybe you don't. I've had this dog in my home for exactly 21 weeks. (haha I even used the cool date calculator to be very specific.)

I know how he behaves in class. At the dog park. At Petco. At my parents' house. When people visit. (I don't have hardly any visitors and the ones we do, he knows.) Offleash at the county park. On leash at the city park, blah and so on. Those situations are comfortable thus far. What if they were changed up? I have a comfort level for what we do, but things could change. What if some random person came up on us on our offleash walks? (It happened twice, actually, and Bailey barked at them, he did, they came out of nowhere and suprised even me - and I called him like no big deal and he came along.) But he did bark at them. Might he have bit? I can't know that. I certainly do not believe so. No one wants to believe they will... and then they do. That's my deepest fear. Do I limit what we do because I am not certain? How do I become certain? The only way in my mind to be certain is to curtail activities that *might* have risk... but that's no way to live for either of us. ON THE OTHER HAND, my dog is totally my responsibility and protecting people from any harm he could cause is my definite responsibility.

Obviously, I'm conflicted.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

chelle said:


> Or maybe you don't. I've had this dog in my home for exactly 21 weeks. (haha I even used the cool date calculator to be very specific.)
> 
> I know how he behaves in class. At the dog park. At Petco. At my parents' house. When people visit. (I don't have hardly any visitors and the ones we do, he knows.) Offleash at the county park. On leash at the city park, blah and so on. Those situations are comfortable thus far. What if they were changed up? I have a comfort level for what we do, but things could change. What if some random person came up on us on our offleash walks? (It happened twice, actually, and Bailey barked at them, he did, they came out of nowhere and suprised even me - and I called him like no big deal and he came along.) But he did bark at them. Might he have bit? I can't know that. I certainly do not believe so. No one wants to believe they will... and then they do. That's my deepest fear. Do I limit what we do because I am not certain? How do I become certain? The only way in my mind to be certain is to curtail activities that *might* have risk... but that's no way to live for either of us. ON THE OTHER HAND, my dog is totally my responsibility and protecting people from any harm he could cause is my definite responsibility.
> 
> Obviously, I'm conflicted.


chelle.

Even though I agree with one of the other posters who said one bite is to be avoided. 
I have learned on these threads that people immediately start coming up with various scenarios that don't fit. 
So for that reason in the original OP I gave the dog the benefit of the first bite.
After that there is no excuse.
Think about it humans don't get the luxury of beating someone up. If we do we pay the price. Humans are usually granted some leeway if its self defense but dogs are rarely given a break in that way.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> If I have guests over I won't put my dogs away, my friends and family know this and expect this they will be out with the friends & family, they know how to behave.


I think it also depends on your circle of friends. At different stages in your life you have different types of people around you.
So when I was 18 and through my twenties my friends were mostly single like me with no kids but now into my thirties and with a young family my circle of friends includes young kids most of the time in which case extra care has to be taken when guests are over. Then I guess it will move onto friends with teenage kids (in which case even MORE care needs to be taken) and then back to guests whose kids are no longer tagging along....so a lot depends on your life and who you have around you. (Gosh....I'm starting to feel "old")


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

sparra said:


> I think it also depends on your circle of friends. At different stages in your life you have different types of people around you.
> So when I was 18 and through my twenties my friends were mostly single like me with no kids but now into my thirties and with a young family my circle of friends includes young kids most of the time in which case extra care has to be taken when guests are over. Then I guess it will move onto friends with teenage kids (in which case even MORE care needs to be taken) and then back to guests whose kids are no longer tagging along....so a lot depends on your life and who you have around you. (Gosh....I'm starting to feel "old")


I have had relatives from many different ages at my house and we always had the dogs out an about, never had an issue. Plus pretty much everyone in my family had dogs at their own home, or grew up with our dogs. Never had an issue with anyone getting hurt. When I get older and have kids I will teach my kids proper way to behave around dogs and I hope my friends teach their kids to behave.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> When I get older and have kids I will teach my kids proper way to behave around dogs and I *hope* my friends teach their kids to behave.


Hope is not a very good contraceptive......

My child knows the proper way to behave around dogs.....but he is still a young child. As for other peoples children around my dogs....NO WAY. I don;t care if they are the best behaved kids on the planet.... My dogs tolerate a lot form my little boy but from kids they don't know.....well I just won't take the risk. It only takes one warning bite to the eye for a kid to lose it.....I think my dogs are pretty bomb proof thus far but they are dogs and they have teeth and kids are kids who are never perfect.....just won't take the chance.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I have had relatives from many different ages at my house and we always had the dogs out an about, never had an issue. Plus pretty much everyone in my family had dogs at their own home, or grew up with our dogs. Never had an issue with anyone getting hurt. When I get older and have kids I will teach my kids proper way to behave around dogs and I hope my friends teach their kids to behave.


This is fine when you have social or people friendly/neutral dogs. 

People who don't have dogs like this need to make the proper accommodations to protect their dogs. Whether it's a muzzle, tethering, crating or putting in another room, whatever - you do what you need to do for your dog. 

And I have seen dogs have to tolerate far more than they should have to. Not saying you do this or your dogs are pushed!!! Just in general, dogs who are practically shouting I want to go somewhere else in their body language who are forced to participate well past the time they should be.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I have had relatives from many different ages at my house and we always had the dogs out an about, never had an issue. Plus pretty much everyone in my family had dogs at their own home, or grew up with our dogs. Never had an issue with anyone getting hurt. When I get older and have kids I will teach my kids proper way to behave around dogs and I hope my friends teach their kids to behave.


Jessie, I understand where you are coming from. You have well behaved dogs that can handle being in a social situation. My dog is the same way. She is a party girl. LOL! 

If, however, I had a dog that did not tolerate people, I would not put the people or the dog in that kind of situation. Totally agree about the muzzles. Never had to use one for people aggression, but did for DA. I don't know why people object so strongly to them. Muzzles can be life savers.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> This is fine when you have social or people friendly/neutral dogs.
> 
> People who don't have dogs like this need to make the proper accommodations to protect their dogs. Whether it's a muzzle, tethering, crating or putting in another room, whatever - you do what you need to do for your dog.
> 
> And I have seen dogs have to tolerate far more than they should have to. Not saying you do this or your dogs are pushed!!! Just in general, dogs who are practically shouting I want to go somewhere else in their body language who are forced to participate well past the time they should be.


I will never muzzle or tether my dog or shove them in another room. My dogs are able to go in and out of the house and into the backyard as they please and also my cousins and I will walk the dogs around the block or go across the street. My dogs aren't forced to do anything(I know you didn't say my dogs are) they don't want to do. If they want to be left alone the go to a different part of the house, but most of the time they want to be with us. My dogs have never been around a wheelchair before, let alone an electric one and were wonderful with my friend who is in one. If I have a friend who fails to teach their kid proper behavior around a dog I will the kid myself. Good thing I have some family and friends who know not to be idiots.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

I'm probably all wrong here, but it really depends. Just my personal feelings.

If you have a dog with a bite history, or human aggression issues, you do need to separate the dog. The problem has been *established*. I mean, you know it's there? so the only people that should be around that dog, if maybe you're trying to train it out, are those who are fully aware of the risks and willing and ready to work *with* you *and* the dog.. again *fully* knowing all risks involved. And even then, there's the risk of a person coming back on you if in the worst case scenario, they're hurt. 

Until that point it's a crap shoot? I don't want to just crate up the dog(s) because it's easier, or I'm worried on what he *might* do. I want to expose him to all kinds of people, especially at the house. When my son still lived here, it was awesome, as all kinds of 20'ish year old kids were coming and going. Great exposure for Bailey. Now he's moved out and we don't have many visitors. I wish I could "hire" strangers to come over so we could work on that... sigh. 

But, bottom line, my dogs live here. They aren't going to be separated/crated when visitors are here unless there is really a danger. My two adults are just fine and very used to a houseful of people, maybe in large part due to that I never crated or separated them when we had parties/family gatherings, etc. My youngest doesn't know that experience.

We'll have a little test on New Year's Eve, as we're having some friends over. I'll likely leash him and my friends will help me, I'm very sure. I guess now I'm old enough that I don't invite people over that aren't my true friends and who won't work with me. I certainly don't expect my friends to put up with any rude dog behavior, and if Bails isn't a good boy, I'll leash him up and tether him to me before I'll seclude him.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> Jessie, I understand where you are coming from. You have well behaved dogs that can handle being in a social situation. My dog is the same way. She is a party girl. LOL!
> 
> If, however, I had a dog that did not tolerate people, I would not put the people or the dog in that kind of situation. Totally agree about the muzzles. Never had to use one for people aggression, but did for DA. I don't know why people object so strongly to them. Muzzles can be life savers.


Tanner and Molly LOVE people, but sometimes just want to to just chill. So if they go and lay down and my cousin or any young ones want to pet them they kid will just go and sit next to the dog and quietly pet them, of course they love that.

My uncle brought over a dog he acquired as a stray recently(he has yet to take the dog to a vet) and he brought over the dog(who is a male) without telling us ahead of time. But he didn't and assumed it will be ok. Tanner got a little obnoxious(barking, no aggression) about another male in his territory. I thought it was rather rude to just bring a strange dog without telling us. My has brought her dogs over(they are small dogs) but my dogs have met them before and got along just fine. Tanner eventually stopped being obnoxious.We had no prior knowledge of this dog coming(Tanner has been around other males, but they were at a dog parks and dog beaches, he did fine.) so we had no idea if this dog would like Tanner. Lucky enough they did just fine, but still its rude to just bring a strange dog over without asking.

I don't know why, but I just don't like muzzles on dogs. Maybe its because I have had no need for them and seen dogs be trained without the need for them.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

chelle said:


> I'm probably all wrong here, but it really depends. Just my personal feelings.
> 
> If you have a dog with a bite history, or human aggression issues, you do need to separate the dog. The problem has been *established*. I mean, you know it's there? so the only people that should be around that dog, if maybe you're trying to train it out, are those who are fully aware of the risks and willing and ready to work *with* you *and* the dog.. again *fully* knowing all risks involved. And even then, there's the risk of a person coming back on you if in the worst case scenario, they're hurt.
> 
> ...



I agree completely.

I won't adopt a dog that has known aggression issues if I know I will have people of many age ranges coming to my house. Yes rescue/shelter dogs pretty much have a "unknown" past, but most shelters/rescues usually evaluate the dogs before adopting them out, to see if they have any aggression issues at all. Also it helps if the dog was in a foster home.

If my dogs start showing rude behavior then I will correct them.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I will never muzzle or tether my dog or shove them in another room. My dogs are able to go in and out of the house and into the backyard as they please and also my cousins and I will walk the dogs around the block or go across the street. My dogs aren't forced to do anything(I know you didn't say my dogs are) they don't want to do. If they want to be left alone the go to a different part of the house, but most of the time they want to be with us. My dogs have never been around a wheelchair before, let alone an electric one and were wonderful with my friend who is in one. If I have a friend who fails to teach their kid proper behavior around a dog I will the kid myself. Good thing I have some family and friends who know not to be idiots.


Why are you getting so touchy about this?
This is just how I handle my situation.....I don't "shove" my dogs anywhere....I just keep them safe....
My family and friends are not "idiots" and I am going to assume that you didn't mean that and give you the benefit of the doubt.
Kids will be kids and if you think you will have perfect kids that will never do anything silly around a dog and have friends who have perfect kids who would never do anything silly around a dog well....kudos to you.....but in life generally speaking this is just not the case so I choose to put my dogs in a safe place chewing their bone...... This is just my opinion...nothing more, nothing less....how you choose to do things is entirely up to you...and I really do hope you don't think my family and friends are idiots...


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I will never muzzle or tether my dog or shove them in another room.


Why would you? It would make absolutely no sense to do this to people friendly dogs. 

But if I have a dog that I know might lose their life if I don't protect them from their bad decisions, I am going to do whatever I need to do to ensure that they will live to play another day by muzzling, tethering or shoving them in another room. 

I have had biting dogs. I had them until their natural deaths because I did this. 

If they had been friendly (and one was with most women in my home under close supervision and both improved over time overall) of course I wouldn't have separated them.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

BahCan said:


> I totally agree with Jack's Dad's post on this topic.
> 
> Having owned a very dominant aggressive Rottweiler, who had never bitten but absolutely given the oppurtunity would have shredded anybody he could. It was my responsibility to not only protect people, but to protect that dog by not putting him in any kind of position to fail.
> 
> ...


Yes, I keep bringing up this post. This is a person who realized the problem and was proactive. I don't think we are talking about dogs who don't pose a problem. People may be opposed to using a muzzle or crating a dog, but if it is the dogs' life we are talking about, is it not worth it? This can be spun any way you please, but the dog who bites will always be at fault. They may be your children, your family, your best friends, BUT....They are still dogs and no court is going to take your dogs' side over a bite victim. Go ahead and argue your case. Your dog is still going to be PTS.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

sparra said:


> Why are you getting so touchy about this?
> This is just how I handle my situation.....I don't "shove" my dogs anywhere....I just keep them safe....
> My family and friends are not "idiots" and I am going to assume that you didn't mean that and give you the benefit of the doubt.
> Kids will be kids and if you think you will have perfect kids that will never do anything silly around a dog and have friends who have perfect kids who would never do anything silly around a dog well....kudos to you.....but in life generally speaking this is just not the case so I choose to put my dogs in a safe place chewing their bone...... This is just my opinion...nothing more, nothing less....how you choose to do things is entirely up to you...and I really do hope you don't think my family and friends are idiots...


I'm not, thats just how I word things. And no I wasn't calling anyone's family idiots.

No I don't expect kids to be perfect, I at least expect some sort of dog etiquette. And not once did I say my family and friends were perfect, all I said was that I had no issues with my dogs being around people. And I explained my situation. The only person in my family who doesn't know how to act around dogs is my uncle, he is worse than most kids. Believe me, if I could, I would ban him from my house.

I do whats safe for my dogs and family, and I expect the same.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Why would you? It would make absolutely no sense to do this to people friendly dogs.
> 
> But if I have a dog that I know might lose their life if I don't protect them from their bad decisions, I am going to do whatever I need to do to ensure that they will live to play another day by muzzling, tethering or shoving them in another room.
> 
> ...



I wouldn't, not with any dog, unless it was absolutely necessary. But I have seen and read about people training and rehabilitating dogs without the use of one.

I will take responsibility for my dog's actions. But I will not allow someone in my house who will potentially cause harm to my dog(NO I am NOT saying you do, this is ajust a general statement.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

No, your dog will take responsibility for your management of their actions. Well, you can get sued, but your dog pays the ultimate price. 

"I have seen and read about people training and rehabilitating dogs without the use of one." 

?


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I'm not, thats just how I word things. And no I wasn't calling anyone's family idiots.


Well that's good ......mind you on my DH side there could be a couple that fit that description......but they never visit.....


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> No, your dog will take responsibility for your management of their actions. Well, you can get sued, but your dog pays the ultimate price.
> 
> "I have seen and read about people training and rehabilitating dogs without the use of one."
> 
> ?


I don't know where the first one came from, but I did say the second one. I have seen read of people training dogs without or managing DA dogs without the need of muzzles.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> This is fine when you have social or people friendly/neutral dogs.
> 
> People who don't have dogs like this need to make the proper accommodations to protect their dogs. Whether it's a muzzle, tethering, crating or putting in another room, whatever - you do what you need to do for your dog.
> 
> And I have seen dogs have to tolerate far more than they should have to. Not saying you do this or your dogs are pushed!!! Just in general, dogs who are practically shouting I want to go somewhere else in their body language who are forced to participate well past the time they should be.


I really like this post Jean. 
I would venture that most dog owner including myself are not that great at reading dogs. There are some things I think I'm decent at seeing but I'll bet there is a lot missed.
We subject our dogs to all kinds of situations without much thought to whether it's stressing them or not.

Jessie:

I had the same experience as you both growing up and well into adulthood.
dogs were part of my life and were involved in everythig and never had an incident of any kind. 
Then I got a rescue Border Collie for my son that was fearful and both dog and people aggressive. He bit one of my sons friends the first week we had him. I made the mistake of not returning him to the rescue. He was on record since the kids mom worked for the county health Dept. and she was not happy about it. I didn't blame her. 
We got a behaviorist, two different trainers, classes, and then he bit a guy working on the fence that was standing right next to me talking. 
He wanted the job so he didn't say anything about it.
We spent the next several years managing and worrying about that dog and the possible harm he could cause someone, plus the financial liability.
Even with the best of management the dog got out when someone accidently left a gate open. I don't know where the dog went. We never found him.
If you ever have a dog like this you will understand what people are talking about. I hope you never have to go through that. 
I said then and meant it I won't do that again. The stress of worrying about a dog like that is unbelievable.
Before the rescue people get on me about scaring people away from rescue, I found out the rescue I used was not handled well at all.
Rescues are like breeders some are reputable and do a fantastic job and some just move animals. The 2nd. type is where I got the BC.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

This is in regards to what JW said re the muzzle: So? If that is the tool that works for that dog - it's not painful, it's not aversive - it just does not allow them to grab someone - why not use it? It removes the choice from the dog, allows many of them to relax, and if it doesn't then you don't use it. 

I didn't muzzle either of my dogs at home, one was muzzled at the vet in the beginning until we used positives and meds and weaned off the muzzle and the meds but if that would have helped them at home, or out in public so I didn't have to worry about them biting, I would have. I used a lot of methods and paid 100% of my attention to them when I was out with them. If I was talking to a person, I was looking at my dog - and glancing at the person. Totally different mindset. 

The first one came from me. Sometimes if you've never experienced something it is very difficult to say what you would or wouldn't do, and lots of times if you read to understand instead of argue you may develop a better understanding of what people are trying to say.

Jack's Dad - totally agree at rescues. Some are sins of omission where they don't know because they just love dogs but don't understand them (which no matter how "good" we are we can do when we get dog blind about a particular dog's behavior) and some are commission because they are not good groups!


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Jack's Dad said:


> I really like this post Jean.
> I would venture that most dog owner including myself are not that great at reading dogs. There are some things I think I'm decent at seeing but I'll bet there is a lot missed.
> We subject our dogs to all kinds of situations without much thought to whether it's stressing them or not.
> 
> ...


Thats why when I adopt a dog I want to know about their bite history and see why the dog bit the person. I will try my best to not adopt out a dog with a known bite history or known to be dog/human aggressive when I know I will have people and dogs at my house.

And yes, I have been bitten by a dog. It was a previous dog who was in pain and I petted his painful spot on his back. I have worked with dogs who were fearful and dog aggressive and dogs who have had bite histories. I will no adopt those dogs for myself.

I do agree that there are good and bad rescues and shelters. I don't adopt from them, thats why I look up and research different ones to see which ones are able to adopt out the right dog to me.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Jessie - I think that is a good plan. I don't think most people should have bitey dogs! And bitey dogs should be discouraged from biting!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

My parents' dog Cujo was two years old when my sister adopted her children, they were one. She visited maybe half a dozen times a year, some of those over night. 

We put the pet yard up in the living room for the girls, not Cujo. Mom would not pen him away, etc. To be honest, I was nervous about the interaction. Twice the dog has snapped at children, both of those times when they landed on the dog. He never connected. He is six now. And he is really, REALLY good with both of my sisters' little girls. They are 4 and 5, and 2 and under 1 now. The littlest one has not had much contact with him, but the 2 year old has had a ton of contact with him.

I can only say one thing, and that is that there is no way that Cujo would be good/safe/trustworthy with kids if we would have hidden him away and allowed no contact with those people.


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

It's important to take responsibility for you and your dog's actions, but it's equally important not to lay blame on your own shoulders that lies elsewhere.

People are idiots. People, even smart ones, make mistakes, as well. You should not be expected to have to run an airtight ship to account for every single eventuality and control for every single moron your dog might encounter. Do your best and if you fail, which hopefully that will NOT happen, admit your mistake and take responsibility.

But don't accept responsibility for the idiot who repeatedly would not accept "no" for an answer. Could you have done more? Sure. No matter what the situation there is always something more you could have done. Dog-related or not.

Should you have done more? I think that's a bit more of a gray area.

~

Samson had neophobia problems...well, I should say "has" but they are mostly gone. My initial reaction was to bottle him up and keep him away from the world because it was stressing him out and I had to worry about reactivity issues. Guess what, doing that, made the problems 10x worse. Once I focused on getting him out and about around public more and more often...I don't feel like I have to constantly be looking down at my side all the time. I can trust him again. He's fine, and even happy in public places. There are still areas we need to work on of course, but it's a major improvement. His life would have been put in jeopardy had I kept him in continual confinement because I can't live as a hermit and isolate myself from the world. I'm going to have houseguests, etc, I'm going to have him with me on the job - and although usually I'm working alone, I can't 100% account for other people.

He never did bite anybody but the fear was intense enough that I did worry.

People do need to learn to accept "no" for an answer. And yes, you should have a plan to deal with idiots, you shouldn't be held solely at fault if something goes wrong.

~

I agree that some people place way too much blame on everyone else for their reactive dog - and that's a problem, when they are doing nothing to improve their dog's demeanor. It IS your fault if you're doing NOTHING. Or taking things way too fast - letting your still-reactive dog run around off-leash, for instance.

But I'm not going to take responsibility for idiots when I'm doing everything right.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

Jack's Dad, I have spent some more time thinking about the feelings your thread has brought to the surface in me. I think that you touched a nerve in me because I do have a fear in the back of my mind that my socialization outings may end badly. And the guilt I would feel were that to happen would be immense, because I would be to blame. Maybe part of the blame would lie with the person who did not heed my warnings, or the parent who did not teach their children to ask to pet first, but ultimately the fault is mine for not protecting the public from my potentially dangerous dog.

Now, I don't actually think my dog is dangerous. I do think he is potentially dangerous. Everyone's dogs are potentially dangerous. Some more so than others. But I have to act as if he were dangerous until he proves me otherwise. And it's hard to give him that chance without, um, giving him the chance. 

Like Draugr said, keeping a reactive dog home and sheltered from the world does not work. We tried that as well. After a year of puppy classes and play groups and day care and outings, we got frustrated and burned out. We stopped making efforts to continue Niko's socialization. As a result he became more reactive at home. I might hang a sheet out to dry on a laundry line I don't normally use, and the next time Niko saw it he would have a panic attack. Another time I took him for a run, got halfway down the driveway and needed to shed my jacket, which I left in a heap on the ground. On the way home when we came across it, you would have thought Niko had spotted a rabid badger! Even noises spooked him, like if I knocked a bottle of shampoo over when cleaning the bathtub.

Once we hooked up with a trainer and stepped up the socialization outings, things improved quickly! Now when I drop things or have strange noises coming out of the radio, Niko is unphased. He no longer feels the need to bark (apparently at nothing and everything) when we go out the front door in the morning.

I certainly feel your frustration with the attitudes of many dog owners. I think people who are genuinely concerned with the mental health and well-being of their dogs (and equally concerned about the public) are in the minority, at least in my personal experience.

Jessie, I can understand your prejudice against muzzles. We were very offended that our trainer suggested that we continue Niko's dog aggression training with the aid of a muzzle. To us, it seemed like a way of saying, "I can't help your dog be safe around other dogs." But upon thinking about it some more, I see the muzzle as akin to a seat belt in a car. I may never actually need it because I am a good driver, but we all know that the world is not populated with good drivers! A muzzle is just a safety device, and yeah it's ugly and strikes fear in the hearts of people who see a dog wearing one, but using one when we get to the point of allowing Niko to meet a new dog ensures the safety of the test dog, which is only fair.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

I think it is good that people are working with their reactive dogs, provided every precaution is taken. I agree with Leah - Muzzles are an excellent safety device. Think of them as not only protecting other dogs and people, but your dog as well. I can't imagine why anyone would not use one. 

You can call people idiots. They don't listen. They don't teach their kids. They don't understand dogs. If/when your dog bites some one, you can express those sentiments to the judge. The judge will throw the book at you and your dog will be PTS. Like it or not, the responsibility is completely on us, not the public.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> I think it is good that people are working with their reactive dogs, provided every precaution is taken. I agree with Leah - Muzzles are an excellent safety device. Think of them as not only protecting other dogs and people, but your dog as well. I can't imagine why anyone would not use one.
> 
> You can call people idiots. They don't listen. They don't teach their kids. They don't understand dogs. If/when your dog bites some one, you can express those sentiments to the judge. The judge will throw the book at you and your dog will be PTS. Like it or not, the responsibility is completely on us, not the public.


I agree stevenzachsmom. I have no statistics to prove it but in most cases I've heard or read about, dogs lose legally. The dog loses its life and the owner can be financially liable for a good sum of money
The last case I know of wasn't a bite. We have friends whose dog chased a lady on a bike. The lady fell and had minor injuries but was angry.
I understand her anger. She sued and they settled for $75,000.00 dollars.
Dog bite can bring severe penalties.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

I agree with you. Completely.

As the owner of a very aggressive dog who's proven he means business when he's cornered, and as someone who has put a dog down for being unstable/HA.

My current dog is a rock with his circle of people, I know what his limits are, I know that he cannot be trusted with anyone he doesn't know, and I know how to introduce him to people and have them gain his trust. I trust that dog with every ounce of my being.


The one I put down was a heart dog, she was my world and I loved her more than I can say, but she was unpredictable, and given the choice of rehoming or euthanizing, killed her. I won't have a manbiter like that, she went after kids she'd known for a long, long time. She went for me once of twice, and she redirected on me when she was aggressing at other things. That is aggression I won't put up with.


I HATE people with aggressive dogs who do not contain them or manage them properly, and I can admit when I have messed up. I would sooner shoot Jaeger than let him hurt someone who didn't deserve it.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I say we muzzle the bad owners. But I don't want anyone to think I would not take responsibility for my dog's action, because that is not true. I know my dogs have teeth and can bite. All dogs can bite. So if my dogs were to hurt someone I would take responsibility and do whatever necessary to make sure it doesn't happen again or that it doesn't happen in the first place.


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## jetscarbie (Feb 29, 2008)

What a great thread. Makes me really think about things. I admit....that's why I don't bring my dogs to places where there is lots of people. I get a little stressed going to the vets office.

I don't put my dogs up when people come over (and my house is part business so we gets lots of company) BUT I do put my dogs up when workers are coming over to fix something in the house....or when my niece comes over. She's 3 and super afraid of dogs. I do that b/c I love her and don't want her to associate my house with scary things. 

My dog bit somebody...the vet. That's why he wears a muzzle at the vet's office. Not the vet's idea...mine. I now know he bites when he's afraid.


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

I am responsible for my dogs, which means to protect them from situations that they cannot handle appropriately and to protect other from them.

I had hoped Benny would be able to come with me to visit my mom who is in a facility with Alzheimers. It was more for my own sake that I wanted him there as these visits are difficult, and it is a 90 minutes drive so I would always stop at a park to train and play with him

I began exposing him to the facility and the residents when he was a puppy, but now have faced the truth that he cannot be trusted in this type of environment so I will no longer bring him and will find other things we can enjoy doing safely together. 

I am also responsible for those who come into our home. Benny has a place command and obeys it well. He likes children, wlll tolerate being mauled by them, but it is also my responsibility to educate children on the proper way to approach and treat a dog (if their parents have not)

We do not allow people who get drunk and stupid in our home. My husband grew up in an alcoholic home, and has no tolerance for the behavior. DH would be the one to bite and become aggressive at drunken behavior in our home, not Benny


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## sheep (Dec 2, 2011)

I hate it when people are not responsible for their own dogs. Some time ago, I went to someone's house and got bitten by a small dog on the butt coz he got between my legs when I was walking so I kicked him accidentally. It wasn't a big deal and was understandable, but the owner thought it was coz me and another guest were talking loudly so she held the dog away and blamed us instead, which was not nice at all.

If a dog is reactive, then restrict his freedom temporarily to avoid unnecessary stress when guests are around. A guest should avoid interaction as respect, but the owner should also respect a guest. It's not the dog's fault for feeling insecure, but a dog is not just a cute flufly poor insecure thing that you can just blame others for his aggressive reactivity. If it was me, I'd say "NO" and put the dog away and apologize to the guest that got bitten. A dog must learn that reacting through bite is not the way to go, through both desensitizing with positive association and correction. My puppy reacted twice with biting when he got excited/startled by a phone ringing and it had hurt, and just with some "NO!" he stopped reacting like that.
If I go to someone's home, I'd respect their boundaries, but I'd also expect to be safe enough to not get bitten if I ever talked a bit louder or sneezed or whatever!

For reactive/aggressive dogs in the streets, people can at least put a muzzle on them. But it seems that some people think that it's cruel, which is actually kinda stupid, as a dog doesn't really care about it, as long as he's used to it (introduce a muzzle to a dog with treats and not by force). It's actually more cruel for someone or some dog to get bitten, or have the dog swallowing something dangerous.


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