# Protective?



## Josiebear (Oct 16, 2006)

Whenever DH and i would wrestle, sometimes we would play slap eachother, Josie has to come in between us. She doesn't do anything other than just putting herself in between us.

I usually tell her to go lay down, but she still does this, I Think she doesn't like it when some one wrestle or even just play slapping eachother. At least she doesn't really do anything other than putting her self in between the two people.

Anyone else's dogs do this too? and how do you get them used to the idea that people aren't hurting eachother?.


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## AliciaMaria (May 8, 2010)

Our Sammi always freaks out when my other half and I hug or mess around (play fight).. she doesnt hurt us, but she clearly gets worried.. its really funny.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

If hubby and I are play fighting, or even laying on the couch together, Hondo will keep bringing toys until we turn our attention to him. Spoiled rotten, I tell you, spoiled rotten.


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## ChristenHolden (Jan 16, 2010)

My brother and uncle had a female chow that would protect who ever got (HIT). And would Bite the hitter even if it was my brother or uncle and did not know the hit-ie. As long as no play fighting was going on she loved everyone.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

don't play like that in front of
your dog. you and your husband
are causing a problem or making your 
dog react.

why play like that in front of
your dog ???


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

it's not funny. don't make your dog
react like that.

do you really think it's funny
that your dog gets worried?????



AliciaMaria said:


> Our Sammi always freaks out when my other half and I hug or mess around (play fight).. she doesnt hurt us, but she clearly gets worried.. its really funny.


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## Josiebear (Oct 16, 2006)

doggiedad said:


> don't play like that in front of
> your dog. you and your husband
> are causing a problem or making your
> dog react.
> ...


Why can't you play in front of the dog?, why would it be different than any other breeds out there?. Just curious . Oh and she's usually laying down napping when the play fights happen lol.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

When my ex and I would start yelling at each other Sinister would come charging into the room with his rope and start thrashing it around. He would make little growling noises too. I think at the time he didn't know who he should protect so instead he took it out on his rope. But my Ex and I were not playing around, we fought 24/7.


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## bianca (Mar 28, 2010)

My sister's Rotti would sit in front of my sister but facing her husband if they ever argued.


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## Wolfiesmom (Apr 10, 2010)

If hubby and I hug or if my youngest son , who lives here at home, and I hug Wolfie is ok with that. When my older, married kids come over and hug me, he jumps on them and tries to push them away. When Chief was alive, no one was allowed to hug me. He used to get between us and shove the other person away from me. I wasn't allowed to talk to anyone in his presence either. If I was talking to someone, he used to bark and bark until I stopped. He was a funny dog.


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## Virginia (Oct 2, 2008)

In a lot of these cases, it sounds like the dog is just getting overstimulated because he sees his people playing and he wants to get in on the fun. Dogs will play by wrestling and play-fighting, and when he sees his family doing it, he thinks that it's play time for him too.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Josiebear said:


> Whenever DH and i would wrestle, sometimes we would play slap eachother, Josie has to come in between us. She doesn't do anything other than just putting herself in between us.


It's normal dog behavior. We WANT them to recognize stressful situations and deal properly with them. The behavior she is doing is called 'splitting' and dogs do it among themselves all the time.

Great DVD to purchase so we can recognize the calm quieting signals in our dogs are 'Calming Signals' by Turid Rugaas.

Amazon.com: Calming Signals: What Your Dog Tells You: Turid Rugaas: Movies & TV


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## trish07 (Mar 5, 2010)

I don't think it's protection. It more like "Hey, what's going on? why are you guys acting like that? This is not normal! I'm curious and/or anxious".

I (my 2 cents) do not believe in "protection toward human" as a basic instinct. You can learn a dog to protect you, but naturaly (without any protect formation), the same dog would probably have a protection reaction to protect his own ass! 

It's kind of "magic thinking" to think that your dog will die for you anytime. 

For sure, some did and other will, but in general, a dog do not naturaly protect his owner, but his ass!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

trish07 said:


> I don't think it's protection. It more like "Hey, what's going on? why are you guys acting like that? This is not normal! I'm curious and/or anxious".I (my 2 cents) do not believe in "protection toward human" as a basic instinct. You can learn a dog to protect you, but naturaly (without any protect formation), the same dog would probably have a protection reaction to protect his own ass! It's kind of "magic thinking" to think that your dog will die for you anytime.
> For sure, some did and other will, but in general, a dog do not naturaly protect his owner, but his ass!


 
"Have you heard much about "Pack behavior"? And for that matter the extremes that a mother dog will go to for her puppies? It is common behavior for dogs to exhibit behavior protecting their pups or pack mates at the risk of harm to themselves. Not all dogs but most of them.


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## trish07 (Mar 5, 2010)

codmaster said:


> "Have you heard much about "Pack behavior"? And for that matter the extremes that a mother dog will go to for her puppies? It is common behavior for dogs to exhibit behavior protecting their pups or pack mates at the risk of harm to themselves. Not all dogs but most of them.


Not false, but I've read in a scientific article that this behaviour of protecting other pack members or puppies is a basic instinct to protect itself first. 

In this article, it was said that, contrary to the popular beleif, wolves live in pack most of the time where the food is rare and territory dangerous.

In fact, only 30% of wolves are living in pack. They live like this because they know they will be protected by other members because other members know that the number makes the difference. They can survive only if they are numerous, otherwise, they would probably die.

In reality, 70% of wolves live alone. This means they have only theirselves to protect.

As for the babies, this is a mother instinct (sometime, for some species, it is more a father instinct), it's a basic instinct for the protection of the species, any animal, including human, would protect babies 'till death.

Animal are protective, don't get me wrong, but they are protective toward theirselves _first_. They can protect yourelf for sure, and they can do it 'till death too...but most of the time, only if the dog learned it.

Plus, dogs and wolves are different. Wolves need to be protective toward each other for a question of survival, but scientific experiences have demonstrated that wild dog didn't have real predator, except cars and humans. So, they are not as protective as wolves can be.

Maybe I'm wrong you know, this is just my beleif from what I've read on dogs, wolves and myths concerning dogs vs wolves.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

trish07 said:


> Not false, but I've read in a scientific article that this behaviour of protecting other pack members or puppies is a basic instinct to protect itself first. *Are you trying to say that a dog will protect itself first? *
> 
> *If so, how would you explain the dog who saves his owner from a 1500 lb bull by rushing in and grabbing the bull by the nose?*
> *All the dog had to do to get away was to run outside of the corral but he didn't and in fact ran TOWARD the big bull at great risk to his own life.*
> ...


Are you seriously doubting that many dogs of all sizes put themselves at personal risk to protect their families and owners? 

Not all dogs will, that is true since some do not the temperament and/or nerve or physical ability to do so; but many will do so. 

If you really doubt that, then you should come by my house one day, or just meet me and Baron one day on a walk - then we will let you threaten me, maybe even give me a smack; and then we will see if Baron (our 2 1/2 yo male GSD) will exhibit any protective behavior at risk to his own physical well being.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Are you seriously doubting that many dogs of all sizes put themselves at personal risk to protect their families and owners?


What I know is that BEFORE our dogs enter a full blown dog fight, they will try ANYTHING else to calm down a situation and prevent any fighting at all.

And the way they do this is with all the dog language called 'calming signals'. I've watched clips of full blown pitbull dogfights and what breaks my heart (other than the fact that people are fighting these dogs in the first place) is when one of the dog is frantically trying EVERYTHING to avoid the fight and tossing out calming signals left and right. Even the aggressor dog doesn't always fully engage with blood and guts cause it's READING the 'calming signals' and SEEING the other dog doesn't want to fight.

But the humans in the ring and in the mix force the fight.

So I know that dogs use calming signals. And I KNOW that dogs will try all the things they can to calm a situation to avoid fighting.

Once again, we 'stupid humans' miss all the calm quiet calming signals and only see the HUGE later signals of the growl/lunge/bite/etc. When if we knew to pay attention and know what's actually happening prior, it's alot.

Come on people, buy this DVD and learn: 





 







Amazon.com: Calming Signals: What Your Dog Tells You: Turid Rugaas: Movies & TV


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> What I know is that BEFORE our dogs enter a full blown dog fight, they will try ANYTHING else to calm down a situation and prevent any fighting at all.
> *Who do you mean by "our dogs"? Are you referring to your own personal dogs or all dogs in general? If all dogs, then there should never be a dog fight if I hear what you say correctly, right?*
> 
> And the way they do this is with all the dog language called 'calming signals'. I've watched clips of full blown pitbull dogfights and what breaks my heart (other than the fact that people are fighting these dogs in the first place) is when one of the dog is frantically trying EVERYTHING to avoid the fight and tossing out calming signals left and right. Even the aggressor dog doesn't always fully engage with blood and guts cause it's READING the 'calming signals' and SEEING the other dog doesn't want to fight.
> ...


 
BTW, there is a LOT of ambiguity in the DVD and also in her book. I know because i bought both and went thru them - or maybe I just didn't quite understand what she was saying. Evidently, at least for some of us, it is not as easy as it might appear to "read" a dog. For example, "turning away" is often cited as a calming signal - does it always mean that or maybe the dog just decided to turn its face to see what is coming in the other direction?? How do we know the difference? Sniffing the ground is also cited by her as a calming signal - or maybe there is something nice and smelly on the ground there???

How is a mere human supposed to know the difference?

BTW, my original question was:
*"Are you seriously doubting that many dogs of all sizes put themselves at personal risk to protect their families and owners? "*

I couldn't really see what your answer was to the question I put to the other person? Do you agree or not?

Thanks!


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## trish07 (Mar 5, 2010)

codmaster said:


> Are you seriously doubting that many dogs of all sizes put themselves at personal risk to protect their families and owners?
> 
> Not all dogs will, that is true since some do not the temperament and/or nerve or physical ability to do so; but many will do so.
> 
> If you really doubt that, then you should come by my house one day, or just meet me and Baron one day on a walk - then we will let you threaten me, maybe even give me a smack; and then we will see if Baron (our 2 1/2 yo male GSD) will exhibit any protective behavior at risk to his own physical well being.


Yes I do! 

Without any hesitation I can say that my dog would probably not protect me if something happen. Why? Because he is clearly fearfull and when something unclear or special happen he comes straight up to me and seeks comfort. 

I do not doubt there is dogs that will save their owner. Dogs can save their owner, but I doubt every dog will at 100%.

Stories where the dog saved its family from burning house are great.....but in reality, who can say that the dog really saved their lifes? Who can really say that this dog could have escape from the burning house but decided to save its family instead? Most of scientifics and behaviorists say that if a dog can escape from a situation of danger, he will.

There are exceptions. There are dogs who have saved children or owner from drowing or from a wild animal. But what I'm saying is that *in general*, not all dogs would save or die for their owner. This is, in my beleif, a magic thinking coming from films like Lassie or Rintintin.

What I meant by "learning" to protect is doing protection. You learn to a dog to protect you in some situation by doing protection courses for exemple.

Like MaggieRoseLee said, dogs will avoid fights. They are not like wolves, they are not thinking like wolves, so they do not have this "pack protection" in mind. wild dogs live alone most of the time. They, in some situation, live in group, but not in pack. This is different. A pack needs a leader. A pack needs hierarchy, not a group. A group of dogs do not have a leader. A group of dogs let anybody in and anybody out, not a pack of wolves, as example.

I think, and this is just my opinion, that most of people think that a dog is the same as a wolf, and it is not. They are clearly two dofferent species, not acting and reacting the same way.

Once again, I do not think that a dog can't protect its owner, I'm just saying that most of the time, he will not do it naturally.


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## trish07 (Mar 5, 2010)

I've just found something interesting that joigned our two positions!



> *Guard Dog Training: Myths*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So, you're right when saying that some dogs (protection breeds) are naturally protective, but I'm also right when saying that not every dogs are naturally protective.

But, even if natural, their protection instinct needs to be developped I think to be 100% sure that in ANY situation, your dog will do soemting to protect you.


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## Virginia (Oct 2, 2008)

Trish, you are correct in saying that not every dog will protect you. Some dogs will do it, some dogs won't, even in breeds with high protective instinct like GSDs and Dobermans. Whether a dog will naturally protect you with NO training is a function of his genetics. Otherwise a dog would have to undergo PPD training to learn to protect you, assuming he has the correct temperament and nerve. 

The reason we all think our dogs are these all-knowing, brave heroes who will protect us from any and all harm is the same reason why we think all pit bulls are aggressive and dangerous. Whenever a dog DOES protect it's owner in some way, it makes it into the news and everyone reads about it. And then there are these movies like Lassie and I Am Legend (ok I couldn't think of any other dog movies off the top of my head but they're out there) showing a dog valiantly coming to their person's aid, with no concern for the dog's own safety or well-being. So we think that this is how all dogs are. This is simply not true. There are tons of people who are robbed, raped, have their houses burglarized, etc. every year, who are in the company of their dog, and the dog did NOTHING AT ALL. But these stories don't make it into the news because they're not interesting. And no one's going to watch a movie about some cowardly dog. Don't you think if ALL dogs were that brave and heroic, and would save their owner at any given time, everyone would get a dog and our crime rate (especially in big cities like Baltimore where a large percent of the population owns dogs) would decrease dramatically? 

The only way to know 100% that your dog will protect you is if it's happened before. And I don't mean you're walking down a dark street, a weird-looking stranger passes by you, and your dog barks menacingly. I mean you're being robbed/raped/whatever and your dog actually attacks (which could end badly for you anyway, lawsuit anyone?). 

True protection is in the face of a REAL threat. Barking maniacally at someone that looks funny is generally an indication of fear-aggression or not enough socialization. Unless this "threat" provokes you or your dog in some way, it's just uncontrolled aggression. And this is nothing to be proud of. Too many dog owners confuse the two, and believe that they have a "protective" dog, when in fact they just have a very anxious dog who is trying to scare away the perceived "threat" before the perceived "threat" does something to them. 

To add in a personal anecdote - a relative of my BF's used to own a Chinese food carry-out in the Bronx, in a particularly bad neighborhood. He kept a PB GSD with him as protection. One day, these hoodlums came into the carry-out with the intention to rob the place. Of course the dog starts barking up a storm, baring its teeth, pretty scary stuff. But one of the hoodlums, takes out a bat, and slams it down on the counter, startling the dog. What does this valiant dog do? Turns tail and runs into the back of the store. The carry-out, of course, got robbed.


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## trish07 (Mar 5, 2010)

Virginia said:


> Trish, you are correct in saying that not every dog will protect you. Some dogs will do it, some dogs won't, even in breeds with high protective instinct like GSDs and Dobermans. Whether a dog will naturally protect you with NO training is a function of his genetics. Otherwise a dog would have to undergo PPD training to learn to protect you, assuming he has the correct temperament and nerve.
> 
> The reason we all think our dogs are these all-knowing, brave heroes who will protect us from any and all harm is the same reason why we think all pit bulls are aggressive and dangerous. Whenever a dog DOES protect it's owner in some way, it makes it into the news and everyone reads about it. And then there are these movies like Lassie and I Am Legend (ok I couldn't think of any other dog movies off the top of my head but they're out there) showing a dog valiantly coming to their person's aid, with no concern for the dog's own safety or well-being. So we think that this is how all dogs are. This is simply not true. There are tons of people who are robbed, raped, have their houses burglarized, etc. every year, who are in the company of their dog, and the dog did NOTHING AT ALL. But these stories don't make it into the news because they're not interesting. And no one's going to watch a movie about some cowardly dog. Don't you think if ALL dogs were that brave and heroic, and would save their owner at any given time, everyone would get a dog and our crime rate (especially in big cities like Baltimore where a large percent of the population owns dogs) would decrease dramatically?
> 
> ...


 Well, thank you! You EXACTLY wrote what I'm thinking! (unfortunately lol, my english is not very nice lol, so maybe I am not clear at all!!!).

Even if the dog barks, growls or shows teeth, this not means he is protective.

My dog isn't protective, he is fearful and anxious, exactly like you said. I know it, I'm aware of it, and I work on it!


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## ThorDog (Feb 12, 2010)

Whenever my DH and I play with each other, tickling, laughing, our dogs always wanted in on the fun and we all play together. 

On the other hand, when my ex husband would push me or act in his abusive way, Thor would always get in between and hold his arm in his mouth, not a bite but a hold, telling him to stop hurting me. He was never trained to do so but he got his point across. Of course I divorced him and kept Thor which was a great deal


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## trish07 (Mar 5, 2010)

ThorDog said:


> Whenever my DH and I play with each other, tickling, laughing, our dogs always wanted in on the fun and we all play together.
> 
> On the other hand, when my ex husband would push me or act in his abusive way, Thor would always get in between and hold his arm in his mouth, not a bite but a hold, telling him to stop hurting me. He was never trained to do so but he got his point across. Of course I divorced him and kept Thor which was a great deal


Great! What a good boy you have  Especially in those situations, your dog acts perfectly! amazing!

You are lucky! Your dog seems to know when things start going wrong and this is a very good start!

Where I do question myself is, if your ex-husband would have hurt you really bad, or tried to kill you or harmed Thor...are you 100% sure he would have do something?

Like Virginia said....her friend's GSD did try to "discourage" the thieves, but when one of them started showing real agression by smaking down a baseball bat, the dog backed off.....

What I mean is, by acting like if the dog wants to protect you, maybe the dog just want to protect itself. Yes, he is barking, growling at this guy (example), but in his mind, how could you be sure he thinks "I'm gonna protec my dad/mom" and not "If I don't do anything, I'm going to be in troubles", this is unclear to me.

I mean, they are animals, and even if they love us, are faithful to us, I think they have limits for most of them.


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## ThorDog (Feb 12, 2010)

trish07 said:


> Where I do question myself is, if your ex-husband would have hurt you really bad, or tried to kill you or harmed Thor...are you 100% sure he would have do something?


The truth is Trish, I have no idea. I think dogs are perceptive and smart and he acted perfectly in that situation. I was in no way implying that he would die for me or protect me no matter what. The reality is that until we are put in that situation we really don't have a clue. Hopefully none of us will ever be put in a life and death situation to test any theories!!!

I agree that "I mean, they are animals, and even if they love us, are faithful to us, I think they have limits for most of them." We have a female shepherd now who is probably a bit on the scared side and no doubt she would expect me to protect her against the bad guys :wild:


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## trish07 (Mar 5, 2010)

ThorDog said:


> The truth is Trish, I have no idea. I think dogs are perceptive and smart and he acted perfectly in that situation. I was in no way implying that he would die for me or protect me no matter what. The reality is that until we are put in that situation we really don't have a clue. Hopefully none of us will ever be put in a life and death situation to test any theories!!!
> 
> I agree that "I mean, they are animals, and even if they love us, are faithful to us, I think they have limits for most of them." We have a female shepherd now who is probably a bit on the scared side and no doubt she would expect me to protect her against the bad guys :wild:


 Hahahah!!! Even with human you can tell if a person will, for sure, proect you. You hope so!!! LOOL

Well, again, your dog reacted perfectly with your ex-husband! I wish my dog could do the same


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

The GSD is supposed to be protective, at least according to the breed standard. Not to suggest that all of them are, but I don't believe that I would want one that isn't protective of its family even in the risk of danger to itself. 

And it is true that we never know how our dog, (or for that matter ourselves), will act in the case of real danger until we find ourselves in such a situation.

BTW, that is one reason that most Sch trainers will put a new dog thru at least some temperament test before agreeing to train them in protection. It doesn't really train them to protect, just brings out what the dog has in them.


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## GSD MOM (Apr 21, 2010)

codmaster said:


> The GSD is supposed to be protective, at least according to the breed standard. Not to suggest that all of them are, but I don't believe that I would want one that isn't protective of its family even in the risk of danger to itself.
> 
> And it is true that we never know how our dog, (or for that matter ourselves), will act in the case of real danger until we find ourselves in such a situation.
> 
> BTW, that is one reason that most Sch trainers will put a new dog thru at least some temperament test before agreeing to train them in protection. It doesn't really train them to protect, just brings out what the dog has in them.


I 2nd this. 

Nellie woke my mom up one night when she was only a yr old. Nellie was whinning and crying and very upset. So my mom thought she had to go out. When my mom got down stairs Nellie led her to the hallway where sparks were shooting out of an socket. Maybe the house would have caught on fire... maybe it wouldn't have...all I can do is be thankful she was there.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

trish07 said:


> I agree! I've been also told that you shouldn't try to "bring out" the protective instinct of a dog before 18 months old because it could turn into fear.


And before that age they are still babies 9or at least teenagers) and are too young anyway.

My first GSD never growled until she was over 18 months and we pulled into a deserted highway rest area one late night trip and there were a few scruffy looking people off in the distance and she let loose with a deep rumbling growl that made every single hair on the both of our necks stand straight up!!!!!!


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## trish07 (Mar 5, 2010)

codmaster said:


> The GSD is supposed to be protective, at least according to the breed standard. Not to suggest that all of them are, but I don't believe that I would want one that isn't protective of its family even in the risk of danger to itself. *The GSD is more protective than some other breeds, but this not means he is à 100% protective naturally to its owner and he will protect you in any case/situation. The GSD breed have a bigger protective instinct than a Bouvier Bernois as example, but this not mean the protective instinct of GSD is to its owner. He is protective for sure, but protective of what? of itself first for sure. That's my point of view.*
> 
> And it is true that we never know how our dog, (or for that matter ourselves), will act in the case of real danger until we find ourselves in such a situation.
> 
> BTW, that is one reason that most Sch trainers will put a new dog thru at least some temperament test before agreeing to train them in protection. It doesn't really train them to protect, just brings out what the dog has in them.


*I agree! I've been also told that you shouldn't try to "bring out" the protective instinct of a dog before 18 months old because it could turn into fear.*

*Just like in the previous story: this little puppy did so well by waking-up the owner and he clearly saved their lifes. But, I don't think he did it because he thought he should save them by compasion or because of love, but more because he didn't know what else to do to save himself.*


*If you have told me that you were stuck alone into a burning house with nobody to help you, not even your dog who is outside playing in the yard and suddently, your dog decided to came in and saved your life, I would say YES, this dog really wanted to save your life. Am I clear lol? *


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## trish07 (Mar 5, 2010)

codmaster said:


> And before that age they are still babies 9or at least teenagers) and are too young anyway.
> 
> My first GSD never growled until she was over 18 months and we pulled into a deserted highway rest area one late night trip and there were a few scruffy looking people off in the distance and she let loose with a deep rumbling growl that made every single *hair on the both of our necks stand straight up*!!!!!!


This is a fear signal, she was totaly fearful, not protective


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

trish07 said:


> This is a fear signal, she was totaly fearful, not protective


Trish,

I don't know how much experience you have with GSD's, or dogs in general, but I would guess not a whole lot. 

It would have been real interesting for you to approach that female GSD in a real aggressive manner - I think than you would have become a believer that this was NOT a fearful reaction, it was aggressive and protective. 

This dog never had a fearful moment in her life in the 5 1/2 years that we had her. She actually did very well in Sch training when we did that passing the temperament test with flying colors despite being from a BYB.

In fact it would be interesting as to your reasoning as to why you seem so sure it was fear when you weren't there and you never met the dog in question. Do you assume that all dogs act all the time out of fear?

I would hope that you realize that some dogs are really protective and also that some are just plain aggressive and not fearful! If you don't realize this some day you may get a real unwelcome awakening from some not so fearful dog that you meet.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> BTW, there is a LOT of ambiguity in the DVD and also in her book. I know because i bought both and went thru them - *or maybe I just didn't quite understand what she was saying.* Evidently, at least for some of us, it is not as easy as it might appear to "read" a dog. For example, "turning away" is often cited as a calming signal - does it always mean that or maybe the dog just decided to turn its face to see what is coming in the other direction?? How do we know the difference? Sniffing the ground is also cited by her as a calming signal - or maybe there is something nice and smelly on the ground there???


Fact of the matter is the DVD is a start to get us AWARE of having to watch and observe our dogs and the totality of situations. This is NOT easy for us, which is why we don't 'get it' on our own but need to watch, be aware, and practice.

I'm out and alone on a hike and my dogs is sniffing the ground? Chances are she's sniffing the ground.

I'm out on a hike and some other dogs are coming near, and I see my dog start to sniff? THAT is a calming signal for my dog AND THE OTHER DOGS! It's completely non-confrontational (as opposed to jerking to the end of the leash, head up high, staring down the other dog).

Fact is most animals will do anything to avoid a fight. Fact is most of our dogs have little or no real skills at judging real mass murderers from just someone who is acting strange or looks strange (to my dog). Dogs are smart, why the heck fight and possibly get hurt if there are other things to try to avoid the fight? 

I love this site Aggression Types | k9aggression.com 



> *Territorial or Protective Aggression *
> 
> Territorial aggression is defined when the dog protects an inappropriate location as its territory, or an inappropriate location in an inappropriate context.
> 
> ...


SiriusDog.com - Tell Me About Your Dog! - Part 3



> *Active defense reaction*
> 
> 
> The active defense reaction is a very aggressive form of defense behavior. This type of aggression falls in the category of re-active aggression. My description of the active defense reaction is that once the dog gets the trigger stimulus for the defense drive, he uses physical violence as a means to achieve his drive goal. I am deliberately using the term violence here to make a point. Dogs who show this reaction will resort to biting as the first or one of the first responses that their programmed behavioral pattern dictates for this drive. This is my personal line of distinction that I use when I assess dogs. The reaction is strong and powerful and stems from confidence in the dog. Dogs exhibiting this form of defensive reaction will go towards the threat and attack the threat physically. They show a clear "offence is the best defence" mentality.
> ...


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## trish07 (Mar 5, 2010)

codmaster said:


> Trish,
> 
> I don't know how much experience you have with GSD's, or dogs in general, but I would guess not a whole lot.
> 
> ...


I said so because you mentioned your dog had her hairs straight-up on her neck. The hairs up on a dog's neck is a sign of fear, from what I've read and from what people explain to me during a Schutzhund competition...

A dog can be agressive when fearfull. A fearfull dog and a protective dog can give same signals which are barking, growling, showing teeth etc., so, why are you so sure your dog was protective and not fearfull? And, if she was really protective (maybe she was, you are right, I don't know your dog), how could you tell she was protective toward you? My point is, yeah, she can be protective, but she is more protective of herself than yours. This is my beleif. 

Now, I'm not here to change your mind. from what I've read, learn from people, breeders, behaviorists and educators, a dog is rarely naturally 100% protective toward its owner. You need to developp this instinct by doing exercices like Schutz. training as example.

Maybe all behaviorists, educators, vets etc. are wrong here in Quebec  lol but I sincerly do not think that dog will automatically protect you 'till death, even if he is from a wellknown /protection" breed.

I just want to make sure you understand my point.

A dog can be protective. They have the instinct, especially breeds like GSD or Dob or Rott or Pitt.

But, they will do anything to avoid a fight. They will try to save their ass first. This is a survival instinct. A dog rarely, without a good training, protect a owner form a real danger if his own life is not in danger.

I will never try to brutalize a dog to see if he can bite me to protect its owner.....I know if will bite me, but to protect itself only.

My dog is fearfull, and if you come straight up to him and him for no reason in a agressive way, he will (I'm 100% sure) bite you very badly, but not to protect me, to protect himself.


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## trish07 (Mar 5, 2010)

> *Fearful aggression.* A dog who is afraid tenses his body and holds his tail rigid, though it may be wagging. His rear legs are ready to run or spring. He bares his teeth, draws back his ears and the hair on his back stands on end. He growls or snarls constantly to warn off the subject of his fear.


What Is Your Dog Saying? A Key to Canine Body Language

This body language really looks like a "protective" language no? But it is not.....


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

trish07 said:


> I said so because you mentioned your dog had her hairs straight-up on her neck. The hairs up on a dog's neck is a sign of fear, from what I've read and from what people explain to me during a Schutzhund competition...
> 
> *Hackles up is a sign of some type of excitement! As you could see if you do a search here and see how many people will say that their dogs hackles go up when they are playing so it most definetly not always a fear reaction.*
> 
> ...


*My GSD is not fearful and if you were to threaten me he would bite you.*

*I misunderstood you, I guess, I thought that you said above that the dog would do anything to avoid a fight and would rather run away. Why stick around and bite me?*


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## trish07 (Mar 5, 2010)

codmaster said:


> *My GSD is not fearful and if you were to threaten me he would bite you.*
> 
> *I misunderstood you, I guess, I thought that you said above that the dog would do anything to avoid a fight and would rather run away. Why stick around and bite me?*


Hairs up can be a sign of excitement, but without the barking, growling and showing teeth. All combined, hairs up are not a sign of excitement.

You repeat that dogs are protective, which I do not doubt, but my point is they are not protective of us. They are protective of themselves FIRST. With a proper education, they learn how to be protective of their owners, but at the base, they are protective of themselves. Regarding the pack, it's the same. They are not protective of each other because they love, they are protective of each other because they need each other to survive, like they need you to survive.

So maybe you are just saying your dog is protective, and it's maybe true (I don't know your dog), but the reason why he is as nothing to do with the love he is having for you. he is because he knows you are the reason why he lives.

I think we will never see it the same way  that's great I like to discuss of it


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

trish07 said:


> Hairs up can be a sign of excitement, but without the barking, growling and showing teeth. All combined, hairs up are not a sign of excitement.
> * Maybe you forgot what you said ("The hairs up on a dog's neck is a sign of fear, .." indicating that hackles up is a sign of fear
> that I replied to with the information for you that "Hackles up" is not always a sign of anything except excitement.*
> 
> ...


I assume that you have never had a dog who would protect you - that is obviously possible; in which case it is understandable that you would doubt that any dog would put themselves at risk for you. Why they do it is absolutely irrelevant to understanding that some dogs will do it. 

They will put themselves in the path of a charging bull to protect their owner when they could easily escape themselves since they are obviously much faster and more nimble than you are. (or the bull!)


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## trish07 (Mar 5, 2010)

codmaster said:


> I assume that you have never had a dog who would protect you - that is obviously possible; in which case it is understandable that you would doubt that any dog would put themselves at risk for you. Why they do it is absolutely irrelevant to understanding that some dogs will do it.
> 
> They will put themselves in the path of a charging bull to protect their owner when they could easily escape themselves since they are obviously much faster and more nimble than you are. (or the bull!)


I've *NEVER* said *NONE* will do, I've said that *in general* they will not. 

Great if you think that your dog will protect you from a mad bull! I do not. I'll try to protect my dog form the bull, not the contrary, in my case, and in a lot of other cases.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

trish07 said:


> I've *NEVER* said *NONE* will do, I've said that *in general* they will not.
> 
> Great if you think that your dog will protect you from a mad bull! I do not.
> 
> ...


Among other quotes that say the same thing here is what you said -"*You repeat that dogs are protective, which I do not doubt, but my point is they are not protective of us.*"

So you would jump in the path of a mad bull to protect your dog? Good for you although I think that your dog could do a better job of protecting you than you protecting him/her (faster and stonger!).

In conclusion, if you are happy and satisfied to have a GSD who will run away in the face of a threat and not at least try to defend his family then I say to you "enjoy your dog" and hope that you never face any such threat with your dog. But please never breed such a faulty temperamented GSD. It is NOT typical and according to the GSD standard.


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## trish07 (Mar 5, 2010)

codmaster said:


> Among other quotes that say the same thing here is what you said -"*You repeat that dogs are protective, which I do not doubt, but my point is they are not protective of us.*"
> 
> So you would jump in the path of a mad bull to protect your dog? Good for you although I think that your dog could do a better job of protecting you than you protecting him/her (faster and stonger!).
> 
> In conclusion, if you are happy and satisfied to have a GSD who will run away in the face of a threat and not at least try to defend his family then I say to you "enjoy your dog" and hope that you never face any such threat with your dog. But please never breed such a faulty temperamented GSD. It is NOT typical and according to the GSD standard.


It sounds harsh, like I shouldn't love my boy because I feel him more fearful than protective. I think you mistunderstand me....

Regarding the bully story, we all know that in front of bull, you should run instead of doing anything else right? I didn't mean I will protect my dog from a bull! I mean if some try to hurt me and my family I will not look at Phenix and wait for his help! I will not ask him to protect me which I think he will not do anyways because he never learned how to.

If someone try to hurt him he will do whatever he can to protect himself for sure. But I doubt he will do so if someone attacks me. And even if he would to, I doubt that in *reality* (means in real "meaning of the action") it would be because he loves me so much, no. He would probably do it be because I'm essential to him for his survival. This is what you don't seem to understand from my saying.

I do not doubt any dog can "protect", but they do not protect you by love or by compation, they do it in a survival instinct, because they need you to survive, no feelings at all in this.

I love my dog with every beat of my heart, even if he is not showing teeth to strangers when I'm with him, he have a lot of other qualities that make him an unbelievable dog.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

trish07 said:


> It sounds harsh, like I shouldn't love my boy because I feel him more fearful than protective. I think you mistunderstand me.... *Never intended to imply that you shouldn't love your boy! You definetly should - that is great!*
> 
> Regarding the bully story, we all know that in front of bull, you should run instead of doing anything else right? I didn't mean I will protect my dog from a bull! I mean if some try to hurt me and my family I will not look at Phenix and wait for his help!
> 
> ...


*He shouldn't be "showing teeth" to any stranger UNLESS there is a threat shown.*

*Trish, by no means did I ever want to imply that any owner should not love and take care of a shy or fearful dog! *

*I happen to think that a GSD should be expected to protect their family if it ever comes to that real need. I have had my previous GSD female do exactly that one dark night in a state park in PA when we had an encounter with some not so nice people.*

*And I will say that if you have never seen a thoroughly aroused GSD defending her "family" you would not believe how fierce they can look. I will say that I had a new respect for her after that night!*


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## trish07 (Mar 5, 2010)

Ok, well, if we start from the point that a dog would absolutly protect its owner, than, why do you think he is doing it? For what purposes? Love? Compation? Survival? I think it's a survival instinct. Like each wolf needs other wolves to survive, your dog needs you to survive too.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

trish07 said:


> Ok, well, if we start from the point that a dog would absolutly protect its owner, than, why do you think he is doing it? For what purposes? Love? Compation? Survival? I think it's a survival instinct. Like each wolf needs other wolves to survive, your dog needs you to survive too.


You could be right - but why do you care WHY he does it, just that he does it. Do you care why he sits when you say "sit" or just that he sits?

Definetly part of the "Pack" instinct, of course.


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## ruger (May 25, 2010)

Interesting conversation. At what age do you think a pup will start to show what is adult temperament will be? In my case, my pup whom I adopted last week barks a lot at strangers and other dogs, not much in the yard but when I walk him. I've been working on this with him but I think he was not socialized real well between the time I got him and the time he left the breeder. He'll be 16 weeks today. 

I have been working with him on his barking and he's already improving, but I'm just wondering about the types of aggression that a previous poster mentioned. He does that real fast barking ears forward as he moves forward. Seems to me like he might be excited or even scared but he doesn't have his ears back and he goes right towards the person/dog that hes barking at. I know it's not protective one because he is so young and two because we are still working on the bonding part.


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## trish07 (Mar 5, 2010)

ruger said:


> Interesting conversation. At what age do you think a pup will start to show what is adult temperament will be? In my case, my pup whom I adopted last week barks a lot at strangers and other dogs, not much in the yard but when I walk him. I've been working on this with him but I think he was not socialized real well between the time I got him and the time he left the breeder. He'll be 16 weeks today.
> 
> I have been working with him on his barking and he's already improving, but I'm just wondering about the types of aggression that a previous poster mentioned. He does that real fast barking ears forward as he moves forward. Seems to me like he might be excited or even scared but he doesn't have his ears back and he goes right towards the person/dog that hes barking at. I know it's not protective one because he is so young and two because we are still working on the bonding part.


Mine was doing the same thing and 4 different behaviorists told me it was axiety, stress and fear.

Great to see you are working on it  It is not an easy thing to correct! Continue your good work!


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## trish07 (Mar 5, 2010)

codmaster said:


> You could be right - but why do you care WHY he does it, just that he does it. Do you care why he sits when you say "sit" or just that he sits?
> 
> Definetly part of the "Pack" instinct, of course.


Because I think it's mistunderstanding what your dog is trying to tell you in some cases.

Why your dog sits on command and why he is having an agressif attitude is not the same thing and will not have the same consequences.
Siting, laying down or giving the paw are good things, whatever is the reason why your dog is doing it. Owever, showing agression could be a disaster if not well interpreted and controled.


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## ruger (May 25, 2010)

trish07 said:


> Mine was doing the same thing and 4 different behaviorists told me it was axiety, stress and fear.
> 
> Great to see you are working on it  It is not an easy thing to correct! Continue your good work!


Were you able to correct that behavior? How long did it take? He has half brothers and sisters that are successful working k-9 cops. I'm just worried that I won't be able to train it out of him, but that could be because I'm a novice trying to come up to speed quickly.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

it doesn't matter what breed the dog is if
the dog is reacting to your play don't
play in that manner to make your dog react.

your dogs not napping if it's jumping between you and your husband as
you said in your orginal post.



Josiebear said:


> Why can't you play in front of the dog?, why would it be different than any other breeds out there?. Just curious . Oh and she's usually laying down napping when the play fights happen lol.


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## trish07 (Mar 5, 2010)

ruger said:


> Were you able to correct that behavior? How long did it take? He has half brothers and sisters that are successful working k-9 cops. I'm just worried that I won't be able to train it out of him, but that could be because I'm a novice trying to come up to speed quickly.


It tooks us time....you need to be patient.

I have to say that Phenix got severly (I mean, very baddly) attacked by another dog at the age of 8 months. He was entering in his "teenager" attitude so it didn't help.

At first, we tryed the Cesar method, so each time he was barking to strange dogs or people we were correcting him like Cesar do. But, soon, it turned very baddly and his anxiety raised very quickly. We didn't know what else to do. We met a behaviorist who use the "cliker" and positive reinforcement method. Immediately after a few days, we noticed changements!

Phenix started to be more relax during the walk. Each time we met new dogs, I asked him something (sit, lay down, "touch" my hand, look at me etc.) and reward (with threats or by play) him when he did it. After a few months, we could walk him without problem. Now, he rarely barks at other dogs and do not bark at people at all.


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## ruger (May 25, 2010)

trish07 said:


> It tooks us time....you need to be patient.
> 
> I have to say that Phenix got severly (I mean, very baddly) attacked by another dog at the age of 8 months. He was entering in his "teenager" attitude so it didn't help.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the feedback that's encouraging. I've been training Zeus the "positive" way as you mention and he is responding well to it. I think it's just a matter of time and patience.


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## trish07 (Mar 5, 2010)

ruger said:


> Thanks for the feedback that's encouraging. I've been training Zeus the "positive" way as you mention and he is responding well to it. I think it's just a *matter of time and patience.*


Oh yeah! lol

But you are going to be so proud of you and Zeus, it's an incredible feeling! Keep up the good work, beleive me, it worth it! It's priceless  And if you need to talk lol, or to vant, send me a pm


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## noelle (Jun 26, 2009)

Ruger only seems confused & distressed in a situation where people he equally preceives as his pack are fighting, ie..if my husband & I "play" fight he seems confused barking, whining, etc, between us. Ultimately he seems to "side" with me, putting himself between me & my husband, but we don't "play" in front of him as it clearly just seems to stress him out!


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## trish07 (Mar 5, 2010)

noelle said:


> Ruger only seems confused & distressed in a situation where people he equally preceives as his pack are fighting, ie..if my husband & I "play" fight he seems confused barking, whining, etc, between us. Ultimately he seems to "side" with me, putting himself between me & my husband, but we don't "play" in front of him as it clearly just seems to stress him out!


 Mine is not! lol

When me and my bf fight, he looks at us and just don't care lol.


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## Sharbel (Apr 30, 2010)

Whenever we *hug* each other Richie comes in between us asking for his share! When we *yell and shout* at each other he just leaves the room or walks away!!

If a *stranger* approaches either me or my wife or the kids *he starts barking* at him. But if a *friend *approaches us or talks to us he just approaches, he sits by us or lays down by us but *he does not bark*.

If a dog or a cat passes by outside in the street he barks at them and if any of us are out in a street and himself is inside in the yard *whether there is anybody in view or not he looks left and right and he barks furiously* and keeps on until we either return inside or we drive away.

If we drive away with the car he stops barking but if we walk to the neighbors few blocks down the street we still hear him barking!!

Interesting isn't it?


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## trish07 (Mar 5, 2010)

Sharbel said:


> Whenever we *hug* each other Richie comes in between us asking for his share! When we *yell and shout* at each other he just leaves the room or walks away!!
> 
> If a *stranger* approaches either me or my wife or the kids *he starts barking* at him. But if a *friend *approaches us or talks to us he just approaches, he sits by us or lays down by us but *he does not bark*.
> 
> ...


That's nice, you can be proud! I wish mine was like yours 

I still beleive that *in general* this attitude is very rare. Phenix don't bark at my friends. He barks at strangers, but in a fearful way in my case.

Phenix don't bark or try to separate us way we hug or even when we fight. He simply don't give a f*** lol 

He will bark at cats or other dogs sometime, but again, it's in a fearful way.


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## Wolfiesmom (Apr 10, 2010)

When Chief was alive, he was very protective of the family. I took him for a walk, and a man stopped me. He said he has always loved GSD's and asked if he could pat Chief. This was a total stranger. I said sure he could pat him. He got down on his knees and patted Chief and Chief was loving every minute of it. Chief's tail was going a mile a minute, and he was kissing the guy, etc. The guy stood up got real close to me and put his hand on my shoulder. In that second, Chief turned from loving dog to fierce protector. His hackles went up, he showed his teeth, and let out such a menacing growl that the guy immediately stepped away from me. He was definitely not fearful of this man. He was protecting me. Another time, a salesman came to the door. I told him I wasn't interested in what he was selling and started to go back inside. The guy opened the porch door, and Chief lunged at him.. Again, he was perfectly calm until he sensed that I may be in danger. He was never trained for this. It was his instinct to protect me.


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## Sharbel (Apr 30, 2010)

GSD's are instinctively protective of both masters and territories. Their barking is never calm it is always fierce and fearful. They are the natural protector dogs.

Once Richie while we were away he got out of the yard and into the street. My daughter was sleeping inside but the neighbor who was always fond of him and friendly seeing the dog out and the gates shut wanted to help him in. And so he approached the front gate in order to open it and let him back in. 

Up to that moment the dog was friendly and even was sitting by his side. As the guy's hand reached the gate's handle the dog shot up and grabbed it from the wrist. The neighbor pulled away instinctively even scratching his hand on the dog's sharp teeth.

Since then he did not approach the gate even if he stills talks to the dog. What I try to say is what was said before for the stranger to whom the dog was friendly up to the point that he perceived that the master was in danger! 

The GSD's are the *natural protectors!* Be fond of them all!! They are loveliest and most loyal breed on earth!


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## dukethegsd (Apr 11, 2010)

Duke my pup even at just 7 months of age when me and my wife get loud runs over to me and stands next to my side and he just stares at her and if she gets close he will just jump up on her sholders he won't growel or get mad just like saying chill. i love my duke .


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## trish07 (Mar 5, 2010)

I think there is a difference between a "fake" fight between owners and a REAL danger where the dog could easely be hurt. Hopefully, not a lot of people can tell their dog have save their life and died for them. Not a lot of people are put into dangerous situations with their dog and this made a huge difference.

The intensity of a situation have a huge impact on the dog's attitude.

Yeah Phenix would probably bark at stranger if this stranger would come in the appartement, but then? If this starngers start to punch me, attack me....I don't knoe, really, if Phenix will take the door and run out or if he will stay and attack the stranger. 

If the door is open, I'm 90% sure he will run away because it is primordial to him to save his own life. He loves me, I do not doubt a moment, but this is nature.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Wolfiesmom said:


> When Chief was alive, he was very protective of the family. I took him for a walk, and a man stopped me. He said he has always loved GSD's and asked if he could pat Chief. This was a total stranger. I said sure he could pat him. He got down on his knees and patted Chief and Chief was loving every minute of it. Chief's tail was going a mile a minute, and he was kissing the guy, etc. The guy stood up got real close to me and put his hand on my shoulder. In that second, Chief turned from loving dog to fierce protector. His hackles went up, he showed his teeth, and let out such a menacing growl that the guy immediately stepped away from me. He was definitely not fearful of this man. He was protecting me. Another time, a salesman came to the door. I told him I wasn't interested in what he was selling and started to go back inside. The guy opened the porch door, and Chief lunged at him.. Again, he was perfectly calm until he sensed that I may be in danger. He was never trained for this. It was his instinct to protect me.


A very GSD like reaction, to my mind; and what we should be able to expect. We need to train/acclimate our dogs so that they can make the right decisions about when they need to be protective.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

trish07 said:


> I think there is a difference between a "fake" fight between owners and a REAL danger where the dog could easely be hurt. Hopefully, not a lot of people can tell their dog have save their life and died for them. Not a lot of people are put into dangerous situations with their dog and this made a huge difference.
> 
> The intensity of a situation have a huge impact on the dog's attitude.
> 
> ...


Actually Trish, it is instinctive for an adult GSD to protect his/her pack even at a risk to them. Any GSD with a sound temperament should react this way unless they have been trained or they have learned not to.


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## Sharbel (Apr 30, 2010)

trish07 said:


> I think there is a difference between a "fake" fight between owners and a REAL danger where the dog could easely be hurt. Hopefully, not a lot of people can tell their dog have save their life and died for them. Not a lot of people are put into dangerous situations with their dog and this made a huge difference.
> 
> The intensity of a situation have a huge impact on the dog's attitude.
> 
> ...


Trish I was reading all the comments you made before and I agree with Codmaster . The GSDs are instinctively protective and they will place themselves in grave danger , be sure of this, to protect both masters and territories. 

As Codmaster said it all we must do is to train them when they should be protective and when they should be calm and timid. 

Actually we must teach them two things: As long as the master is capable of giving commands to obey the attack command and when the master is not in a position to give a command to "read" correctly a situation and decide whether they need to get into action or not.

You will be surprised but when your GSD ( unless it is not purebred) will sense you are being attacked he will attack and protect you placing his own life in danger.

Be sure that a GSD will not do it because you are important for his survival but because it is a pack dog , a dog by instinct and by nature protective.

Only recently, it was in the news about a GSD dog, I think in the US, which when the owner was caught in the blazing farm house and the dog was out in the yard, *at the command of the owner*, he run for kilometers to alert the fire service to the rescue. And t*he owner-master survived death*. 

This dog could continue his playing as he was safe out of danger himself or run away if he was fearing for his safety. He did not! 

*NOT A TRUE GSD. NEVER TRISH!!! BELIEVE ME! NOT A GSD!*


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

codmaster said:


> Actually Trish, it is instinctive for an adult GSD to protect his/her pack even at a risk to them. Any GSD with a sound temperament should react this way unless they have been trained or they have learned not to.


Very true.


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## Sharbel (Apr 30, 2010)

For those of you interested to discover what a GSD can do for his master read the following rescue article. These dogs are mazing!! I hate calling them dogs! They are the most faithful and intelligent creatures ever!

Alaska: German Shepherd Given Hero Status After Saving Owner's Home From Fire | Strange News | Sky News


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## Sharbel (Apr 30, 2010)

A GSD dog whose owner was having a seizure saved his life *by calling the emergency services and barking down the line to raise the alarm.*


Dog Saves Life Of Owner Joe Stalnaker By Dialling 911 When He Had A Seizure In Scottsdale, Arizona | World News | Sky News

Why argue in forums. The facts speak by themselves. The GSD is the top breed. Whether one believes this or not this breed will protect at any cost masters and territories. *ALWAYS!!!*


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## trish07 (Mar 5, 2010)

Sharbel said:


> Trish I was reading all the comments you made before and I agree with Codmaster . The GSDs are instinctively protective and they will place themselves in grave danger , be sure of this, to protect both masters and territories.
> 
> As Codmaster said it all we must do is to train them when they should be protective and when they should be calm and timid.
> 
> ...


Well, *mine is a pure breed GSD* coming from a *very good line of Schutzhund GSD* (mother/father, grandmother/grandfather etc, and all come from Germany) and I know he wil not protect me. 

He is fearful. I do not take his bark against strangers as a warning to prevent me from a dangerous situation. He barks because he is afraid. 

Numerous times, if I had not handle the leash fermely, he would have run away. 

As an example, We went to a Schutzhund competition a few weeks ago, and he was totaly scared of other dogs and some humans (mostly the man doing the competition). One of the dog barked at him and surprised him and he tried to run away (hopefully I was handling him well). he never faced any of these dogs or men. He was scothed on my legs. I knew he was afraid.

An other time, I was walking with him when all of a sudden a terrible inflatable toy appeared. Again, he tried to run away.

I really don't care if my dog is 100$ courageous or fearful. I love him. He is intelligent and he is a GSD. I bought him for his intelligence, not for his courage and not as a protection dog.

The thing that bugs me the most in your saying is you seem to tell that all other breed can be fearful, but NOT a GSD: no matter what, a GSD will always save your life. Don't be sure.

There are great stories like yours, but how many where the dogs run away? A lot, but they are not showed on TV.

Friends come to my house and fight we me. He do nothing.


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## Mac's Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

Lilie said:


> If hubby and I are play fighting, or even laying on the couch together, Hondo will keep bringing toys until we turn our attention to him. Spoiled rotten, I tell you, spoiled rotten.





ruger said:


> Interesting conversation. At what age do you think a pup will start to show what is adult temperament will be?
> 
> In my case, my pup whom I adopted last week barks a lot at strangers and other dogs, not much in the yard but when I walk him. I've been working on this with him but I think he was not socialized real well between the time I got him and the time he left the breeder. He'll be 16 weeks today.
> 
> I have been working with him on his barking and he's already improving, but I'm just wondering about the types of aggression that a previous poster mentioned. He does that real fast barking ears forward as he moves forward. Seems to me like he might be excited or even scared but he doesn't have his ears back and he goes right towards the person/dog that hes barking at. I know it's not protective one because he is so young and two because we are still working on the bonding part.


Ruger - I agree this is a very interesting conversation with lots of different opinions and experiences. You mentioned that you've been working with your pup and he's improving. What technique are you using? What I'm doing doesn't seem to be working. Anyway, Mac barks at cars, neighbors, dogs, birds...my trainer said he's excited. I swear he's saying "hey you, play with me!" "Hey, whats going on? What are you doing? Can I do it too?" He shows no agression or anxiety. He just looks like an excited little boy who wants attention. Plus he's really nosey! LOL He is spoiled rotten too - Lilie ! He does get a lot of attention because everyone seems to love GSD's. And he's so cute & friendly he's hard to resist!


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## Mac's Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

Trish, This is an interesting debate with many good points. I appreciate that. Thats what I love about this site. I learn something new every time and my own beliefs and opinions are challenged. Which is always good. My goal is to know as much as I can so I can make his life the best it can be.

I just wonder why your boy is so fearful. I'm curious if there are things you can do to help ease the poor guy's anxiety. Mac used to get really excited but also anxious at the vet. My vet suggested massaging his neck and speaking soothingly to him. Might sound silly but it works sometimes. I think it makes him feel secure...I don't know...I'm new LOL


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## trish07 (Mar 5, 2010)

Mac's Mom said:


> Trish, This is an interesting debate with many good points. I appreciate that. Thats what I love about this site. I learn something new every time and my own beliefs and opinions are challenged. Which is always good. My goal is to know as much as I can so I can make his life the best it can be.
> 
> I just wonder why your boy is so fearful. I'm curious if there are things you can do to help ease the poor guy's anxiety. Mac used to get really excited but also anxious at the vet. My vet suggested massaging his neck and speaking soothingly to him. Might sound silly but it works sometimes. I think it makes him feel secure...I don't know...I'm new LOL


Thx for the comments 

Well, I think Phenix has lived a few bad situations that didi help.

At the age of 8 months, he got seriously attacked (the other dog litteraly tried to killed him) at the dog park. 

We were going to dog parks since Phenix was 10 weeks old. We never had any problem. Phenix was acting perfectly with other dogs, we had a lot of compliments about his attitude. He was a very playful and never showed a single sign of agression. When there was fight, he was coming near us, never participating. 

After the attack, he started to attack other dogs, especially small one and puppies. On leash, it was a desaster! Each time we met other dogs, he was barking like ****, his hackel up on the neck. Than, he started acting the same way toward human. We couldn't accept that!

Also, in the same few months, we moved to a new appartment and we left him for 3 weeks because we were in Europe.

I sincerly think that all this combined, plus the fact that he was (and still lol) in his "teenage pass" have a lot to do with his behaviors.

He come from a very well known breeder here in Quebec for Schut. GSD. His dad and mom had multiple prices and were very, very calm and sure of themselves. No anxiety at all.

The other thing that made me beleive that way is, from what I've seen and learn during Schut. competiton and with good help from breeders and behaviorists is to watch dog's reaction. Even there, I have seen dogs that were fearful. They (breeders and behaviorist and trainers) all told me it was fear and that many dogs are fearful. They told me that without a good training, you can't 100% be sure that your dog will save your life in a situation were he could escape. They are not all friends or collegue, they are all from different school, but they all told me the same thing: dogs are opportunist, they will do all they can to survive.

This is why I do not beleive that, in a situation where Phenix could save his life, he would 100% sure save mine before.

He can. And may be not. Who knows? But to say that EVERY GSD will save their owners life whatever the situation is....I doubt, really!


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## trish07 (Mar 5, 2010)

I forgot to say that Phenix is a lot better. We are working with a very good behaviorist who help us a LOT. Phenix acts pretty normal now and everything seem the be all right, but he still more fearful than courageous. In situations where he is unsure, he looks at me like "Hey, what do I do??? Mom, please, move on!"

Phenix LOVE the vet loool! seriously, each time we go there, he is relax and all the vet and technician are like "Awwwwww he's so cute!!!!" LOL


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## Mac's Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

I'm sorry to hear what happened to your boy at the dog park. That must have been terrible for you too. 

A friend of mine has a 6 year old mix who was attacked by an unleashed pit in the neighborhood. I blame the parents not the dog. Anyway, he only had a few stitches but still...it was traumatic for my friend and her dog. After a couple months, she brought him here and he played with Mac just fine. And, believe me, Mac is a bull dozer! LOL And at 6 months he is bigger than her 6 year old mix. Maybe it was ok because her dog knew Mac is a puppy...I don't know. I wish I could read their minds...ya know?

I'm starting to wonder if Mac is displaying fear more often then I am noticing. Am I confusing excitement with fear? Thanks for bringing up the subject. I'll stop babbling now LOL


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

trish07 said:


> .............
> He is fearful. .........
> The thing that bugs me the most in your saying is you seem to tell that all other breed can be fearful, but NOT a GSD: no matter what, a GSD will always save your life. Don't be sure................
> 
> .


Trish, I don't think that EVERY GSD WILL protect their family, just that this behavior is EXPECTED from a normal GSD! 

But just like some GSD's do not match the standard for conformation, there will always be GSD's who do not match the standard mentally and behavior also.

If you love your boy as he is, then that is great for both you and him! But he should never be bred because of his temperament, just like a GSD with any other major fault should never be bred!

Anyone buying a GSD should be able to expect them to become protective of their family as it is a characteristic of the breed whereas with some dogs, i.e. a Beagle perhaps one would not expect them to be protective. Just a different breed trait!


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## trish07 (Mar 5, 2010)

codmaster said:


> Trish, I don't think that EVERY GSD WILL protect their family, just that this behavior is EXPECTED from a normal GSD!
> 
> But just like some GSD's do not match the standard for conformation, there will always be GSD's who do not match the standard mentally and behavior also.
> 
> ...


 That's a good point of view!


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## trish07 (Mar 5, 2010)

Mac's Mom said:


> I'm sorry to hear what happened to your boy at the dog park. That must have been terrible for you too.
> 
> A friend of mine has a 6 year old mix who was attacked by an unleashed pit in the neighborhood. I blame the parents not the dog. Anyway, he only had a few stitches but still...it was traumatic for my friend and her dog. After a couple months, she brought him here and he played with Mac just fine. And, believe me, Mac is a bull dozer! LOL And at 6 months he is bigger than her 6 year old mix. Maybe it was ok because her dog knew Mac is a puppy...I don't know. I wish I could read their minds...ya know?
> 
> I'm starting to wonder if Mac is displaying fear more often then I am noticing. Am I confusing excitement with fear? Thanks for bringing up the subject. I'll stop babbling now LOL


 I cannot say, I've never see your boy  What I thought was excitement at first was fear and anxiety from what vet and behaviorists told me. Just be carreful and pay attention to details.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

trish07 said:


> I cannot say, I've never see your boy  What I thought was excitement at first was fear and anxiety from what vet and behaviorists told me. Just be carreful and pay attention to details.


I don't know about your dog, of course; since I have never seen him, but it seems like many trainers and behaviorists seem to blame "Fear" for an awful lot of dogs behavior. 

For example, one trainer that i used to go to for both classes and private lessons (not anymore!) actually told me that my dogs sniffing the ground while on a down stay was due to "anxiety and fear and nervousness". The dog (2 1/2 yo male GSD) has never been afraid of almost nothing ever since he wa 10-12 weeks old. I think he was sniffing because the floor in the training building smelled good! Or he wanted to mark his spot as he also does this marking whenever he can.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

I have to agree with Codmaster, I expect my German Shepherds to be protective, thats precisely one of the reasons I have and love the breed, I have 2 examples of what we're trying to say, 5 years ago I had an oops litter, I had intended to eventually breed the two, just not at the time as they were not xrayed yet, but they were of good German Showlines, I had 5 puppies, kept 1 and sold 4 all to great homes, out of the blue last year one of the buyers called me very emotional to tell me about his dog they named Bandit, he had moved out of his parents home and occasionally dropped the dog off to visit as they missed the dog, one of those occasions his father was out golfing and his mother was alone with Bandit, who was in the backyard chilling by the pool, a man barged in and grabbed his mother by the elbow dragging her down the hall to get her purse/money, Bandit heard her scream and literally tore through the screen and charged, the man threw a vase, a cup of coffee and several books but Bandit kept coming and chased the man out the front door literally knocking him to the floor and breaking his nose, this man had been wanted for multiple home invasions of the elderly in the neighborhood, the young man was so touched and proud of his dog, I was of course just as proud.

The dog I kept, Maddie is my shadow, she is a herding fool and last year as I was cleaning the stall of one of my EXTREMELY aggressive horses, I felt cramped with the horse and Maddie and scolded her to get out of the stall, I don't allow the dogs with this horse as he hates them and it amps him up even worse, Maddie went out and sat behind the wheelbarrow blocking the open stall door, I accidentally tripped on my shoelaces and fell, dropping my manure rake, which bumped the horse, he whirled around snorting and charged at me, striking out and just missing me, Maddie in a blurr hurtled over the wheelbarrow and in full attack mode charged the horse, enabling me to get up and grab the pitchfork to protect her, Maddie was safely out of the stall and had no reason to take on an animal weighing 1150 pounds more than her, she did it because of her loyalty and love for me, she didn't think about who would feed her if I was dead, she cared about me, it's the same reason homeless people's dogs stay with the homeless, because they love their person and they would rather stay with them than leave for wealthier owners, it's what makes dogs the creatures they are, and the symbol of love and undying loyalty.

I also had a little Corgi charge a stallion that kicked me in the knee, shattering it, I dropped to the floor and as the stallion came at me, she came at him, she even hung from his muzzle and drew blood, she would not leave my side, it's what makes dogs the greatest creatures on earth.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

LARHAGE said:


> ................it's what makes dogs the creatures they are, and the symbol of love and undying loyalty.
> ................ it's what makes dogs the greatest creatures on earth.


 
Very very true!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## trish07 (Mar 5, 2010)

codmaster said:


> I don't know about your dog, of course; since I have never seen him, but it seems like many trainers and behaviorists seem to blame "Fear" for an awful lot of dogs behavior.
> 
> For example, one trainer that i used to go to for both classes and private lessons (not anymore!) actually told me that my dogs sniffing the ground while on a down stay was due to "anxiety and fear and nervousness". The dog (2 1/2 yo male GSD) has never been afraid of almost nothing ever since he wa 10-12 weeks old. I think he was sniffing because the floor in the training building smelled good! Or he wanted to mark his spot as he also does this marking whenever he can.





LARHAGE said:


> [...] she did it because of her loyalty and love for me, she didn't think about who would feed her if I was dead, she cared about me, it's the same reason homeless people's dogs stay with the homeless, because they love their person and they would rather stay with them than leave for wealthier owners, it's what makes dogs the creatures they are, and the symbol of love and undying loyalty.


Those are great stories  Thank for sharing!

You have great and intelligent dogs. 

On which facts are you basing the idea that your dog are doing this only by love? Is there any scientific writtings that shows that dogs have feelings? I'm curious.

From what I've read, even scientific cannot say if animals have feelings. If scientific cannot be sure of that, how can you? I would love too 

This is all new to me. I also was thinking that dogs were protecting their owners in any kind of situations. And, I was also thinking that GSD were the no. 1 protection dog.

My mother had a friend who was paraplegic. Her brother gave her a GSD which was working for the police until his handler was killed. Than the dog couldn't work with other handlers. He trained the dog to help his sister. One day, she left the house for a whole weekend. When she came back, there was a men in the middle of the dining room with her GSD standing in front. The guy told her he broke into the house friday night to rob her, but when he was about to leave, the dog showed up and make him sit and patietly wait for his owner to arrive. 

This is a great story. But, the dog didn't do it because "he loved" her (she wasn't even there!!), he did it because he was trained to do this before. It was his work and he knew he had to do it.


Some read on the subject (the first artcile is very interesting):
Do dogs have feelings
Emotion in animals - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Does my dog really love me?




> Having said all that, I defend the right of any dog owner to indulge in the fantasy that their dog loves them and is responding to them in a human manner. I indulge in such imaginings myself. But when we fail to realize that they are just imaginings, and not reality, that is when we do a disservice to ourselves and our pets. Barry "A dog cannot be bad, *it can only be a dog.*"


Yeah dogs are sign of undying love, but this image come form films! Lassie, Rintintin, Rex, Croc-Blanc, Bettoven etc.

There are film with cats, horses, even pigs lol Does that mean they will all act like the one in the films?


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## Sharbel (Apr 30, 2010)

trish07 said:


> .......all told me it was fear and that many dogs are fearful. They told me that without a good training, you can't 100% be sure that your dog will save your life in a situation were he could escape. They are not all friends or collegue, they are all from different school, but they all told me the same thing: dogs are opportunist, they will do all they can to survive.
> 
> This is why I do not beleive that, in a situation where Phenix could save his life, he would 100% sure save mine before.
> 
> He can. And may be not. Who knows? But to say that EVERY GSD will save their owners life whatever the situation is....I doubt, really!


Trish I am very sorry of the traumatic experience of Phenix. Hw will need special care to overcome this traumatic memorioes. 

But we do not say that dogs do not feel fear. A person that is afraid does not mean that he is a coward and that he is not courageous. Fear is the dynamic force behind courage most of the time. It is the main factor that drives the adrenalin high and causes courage to grow.

*A normal healthy GSD* *with no traumas* *will certainly feel feel fear* *but* *will equally certainly not run away from his masters or his territories in order to save his own life*. 

He may not necessarily succeed to save his master's life or protect his territories but *for sure* *he will try to do so* and *certainly he will not run away from danger to save his own life*.

This applies to most protective types of dogs (medium to large size) and for sure to all healthy GSDs.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

trish07 said:


> ...................
> On which facts are you basing the idea that your dog are doing this only by love? ...........................................


Where did you get the idea that the dogs were protecting their families out of "Love"? 

And you then use a strawman argument about dogs not feeling love. Clever approach, but clearly not the real topic that we were discussing.

Dogs WILL protect their "pack" members and will put themselves at risk to do so. Not all dogs of course. Some might be afraid. 

Just like not all mother dogs will fight to protect their puppies but most will fight to the death to do so.


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## Mac's Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

The consensus appears to be that most but not all dogs protect their pack. Because we are part of their pack they are likely to instinctively protect us. True?


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## Mac's Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

My personal belief is that dogs do love us. As hard as it is to believe...cats do too  There is no doubt in my mind that animals have feelings & emotions. I did a paper on it in college. But I don't need to read it in a book to know it...I simply look into Mac's eyes...


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## Sharbel (Apr 30, 2010)

Very true indeed. Love is always seen in the eyes! Their eyes as well as in people's who love eyes. No diffrence whatsoever.

And it is a pure love free of any pendings and expectations. Only GIVING!


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## trish07 (Mar 5, 2010)

Sharbel said:


> Trish I am very sorry of the traumatic experience of Phenix. Hw will need special care to overcome this traumatic memorioes.
> 
> But we do not say that dogs do not feel fear. A person that is afraid does not mean that he is a coward and that he is not courageous. Fear is the dynamic force behind courage most of the time. It is the main factor that drives the adrenalin high and causes courage to grow.
> 
> ...


Thanx , Phenix is doing a lot better. We are working hard each day. The battle is not finish, but we are on the good way 

Maybe he will become more self confident when he will get older too....we don't know. We try to help him the more we can and I think it works great.

I don,t know how to explain clearly what I think.....I know dogs are more protectives than birds  I know they are more protectives than most of other animals. 

But, I still do not beleive that in a *very dangerous* situation where a dog could escape, *GENERALLY* he will.

THEY ARE ANIMAL FIRST. They do not think the same way. This has nothing to do with the "love" of your dog for you, they are animal and they think as animal: they want to survive.

They have a "belong to" feeling (don't know if its the good word...) for sure, as a "pack member" maybe. But I don't they they love like we do. It is not the same "love". I know Phenix loves me. Like you said, you only have to watch their eyes to know that you are important to them.

No dog will leave you without a good reason. They will stay by your side, even if you are ugly, poor and bad. It's a natural way of being: they live for other pack's member. But it doesnt mean that in a survival situation they will all die for you.

Some will, I'm just curious to see the % of dogs who saved and dogs who escaped. We always hearing og hero dogs, but not of other one.

I'm not 100% sure of what I'm saying, I do not say this is the way it is and I'm truth, but I'm questioning myself 




Sharbel said:


> Very true indeed. Love is always seen in the eyes! Their eyes as well as in people's who love eyes. No diffrence whatsoever.
> 
> *And it is a pure love free of any pendings and expectations. Only GIVING!*


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