# Which would YOU breed?



## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

I’d be interested in learning more about why breeders make certain choices when it comes to selecting breeding pairs.

So, I am a new breeder. I am trying to establish my line (all around healthy working dog) and I purchased three females puppies two years ago. Now I have fully evaluated them and found the following:

Amy – correct size, light boned, medium drive, bombproof temperament, OFA Fair hips

Barb – 1” under the desired height, heavy boned, high drive, fair temperament (sometimes unsure in new situations but acclimates given time), OFA Excellent hips

Candice – 2” over the desired height, acceptable bone, medium – high drive, good temperament, OFA Good hips

All girls have clear elbows and any other traits are all equal and good.


All three females come from the same litter. Both sire and dam are the correct size, good bone, medium drive, good temperament and OFA Good hips & clear elbows. This is the first breeding for this pair but each has been bred to other dogs before and thrown the same as themselves each time.

So, question #1 – which of these females would you feel comfortable breeding? All three? None? And why?

Now, all three girls came into heat at the same time. I have three males available to me and I need to decide which male to breed to which female. I plan to breed two of the girls (on the chance that one doesn’t take).

Zeke – 2” oversized, heavy bone, medium drive, good temperament, OFA Fair hips

Yipper – 2” undersized, light bone, medium drive, bombproof temperament, OFA Excellent hips

Xen – correct size, heavy bone, high drive, fair temperament (sometimes unsure in new situations but acclimates given time), OFA Good hips


So – what is your pairing and why? And no copouts – you can’t say I wouldn’t breed any of them. You HAVE to breed at least one of your females (just because I said so).

(I guess what I’m trying to say is that we will NEVER find the perfect dog. All dogs have flaws – something that just isn’t quite good enough (and usually more than one). So you have to decide what area you are willing to compromise on in order to try to improve another.)


----------



## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

Barb to zeke - should be able in time to balance height/bone. good temp. and fair together. WOULD NOT put to ok temperaments together. Breed the excellent to the fair hip (was going to say yipper, but I have seen exc/exc breedings turn out like crap)

amy-xen - nice blend of drives as above, both correct size, bal. for bone/temperament, should be able to improve hips.

candice-zeke - don't really like but last option available as both oversized, improve for hips, and bone. I would rather see candice taken to xen or yipper.

I've always been the one to take opposites. If I have a dog more on the civil side, I'm not going to double up on it. I'm going to look for more sport/prey to balance out. 

Above scenarios are assuming each male can only be used once.


----------



## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

I'm looking forward to reading the responses.. Let's hope all the breeders play along..


----------



## Pascha (Sep 28, 2008)

Barb and Zeke
Candice and Yipper
Amy and Zen


----------



## Mandalay (Apr 21, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: G-burgI'm looking forward to reading the responses.. Let's hope all the breeders play along..


So am I! I have my picks, but since I am not a breeder, have never been a breeder, will never be a breeder and dont know anything about being a breeder, I am going to wait and see.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Interesting question. I'll try to answer tomorrow or Saturday.


----------



## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Well my choice would be Candice and Zeke.

They may both be incorrect height wise, but that is an easier fix than temperament and health. Bone and height can be fixed in a generation or two.

Amy x Zeke would be my second choice for perhaps a more middle of the road litter. Fair is still passing, and with both litters you should be looking back in the pedigrees for dogs with good hip ratings, temperament, boning, etc...


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I would eliminate both dogs wiht temperament/environmental issues, no matter what the hips.

I would not do any of these to each other without more research on peripheral family relationships for hips and temperment.

I don't see a match I would do - the only possibilty would be Yipper to Barb - height is the least of the characteristics I would concern myself with....

Lee
Amy to Zeke


----------



## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

This comment is from someone who hasn't found the female I would want to start my foundation on.

My first concern since all three females are from the same litter is the lack of uniformity, you have a 3" size difference largest to smallest. The range in temperaments is also sorta all over the place and no two have the same hip rating. 

So I would really have to consider if I wanted to use any of them and if I did if the three studs listed would be what I wanted to use.

I would lean towards using Amy, but I am not sure I like the stud choices for her.

I want bomb proof temperament. I think bone can be improved in puppies by using a stud that throws good bone. The hip rating of fair not what I would jump up and down about, but with a good and excellent as littermates that is a plus. For Amy I would want a correct sized stud, with good bone, bomb proof temperament, with medium to high drive as there should be good nerve to handle more drive. Hip rating "Good".

Maybe that is why I haven't had a litter yet.


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I missed the same litter comment - the multiple inconsistancies bother me as well.

I don't believe in starting from negative positions and I can't see a match up here I'd be comfortable with.

Lee


----------



## djpohn (Jun 27, 2003)

I agree with you Lee. 

Since no dog HAS to be bred, I would spay all three and place in pet homes and start over! If a dog is just average (or less) there is no point breeding it.


----------



## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: GS MomIf a dog is just average (or less) there is no point breeding it.


But see - that's the problem.

There is NO perfect Shepherd. You are ALWAYS going to have to compromise on something.

Bone, size, ears, hips, eye color, coat length, temperament, drive, work ethic, bite, head size ...

Which ones are you WILLING to compromise on??


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:There is NO perfect Shepherd. You are ALWAYS going to have to compromise on something.


Bad hips don't bite a friendly neighbor, straighter shoulders don't growl at kids, and light eyes don't freak out at random noises. I don't breed but if I did, I would not compromise on temperament. Drive is okay to compromise on, fight is okay to compromise on, biddability is okay to compromise on, but issues that tend towards weak nerves and actual stability flaws are not okay IMO. The mind is the most important part of this breed. Next in my book would be health and soundness, then structure (which pretty much fits into soundness), then the details. The total dog and the overall picture are the most important but after seeing great dogs with nerve issues, however minor, I would refuse to compromise on that and appreciate a breeder who puts temperament at the highest priority.


----------



## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

They're from the same litter?? Ok, then sorry, I know you said we couldn't cop out, but I'm gonna have to. There is nothing consistent if they are from the same litter. Height, temperament, hips, bone, nothing.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

> Quote:I guess what I’m trying to say is that we will NEVER find the perfect dog. All dogs have flaws – something that just isn’t quite good enough (and usually more than one). So you have to decide what area you are willing to compromise on in order to try to improve another.)


You are not giving us enough information to make a decision. Based on the information you have given me I would not breed any of these dogs. Amy probably doesn't have the drive to do search, detection or police work let alone dog sport. Barb doesn't have the nerves for breeding. Candice is significantly oversized. Larger size can reduce athleticism, speed and endurance. The compromises you are asking us to make are too great, IMO. I might consider breeding Amy IF she proved to have enough drive to work, but it would not be to any of the males you have chosen. I breed working dogs. I do not breed for the pet market. Personally I would spay them all and start over. The problem, as someone else pointed out, since these are littermates you would need to find an extremely prepotant male to breed Amy to. One that really stamps his pups with correct size, good hips, drive and sound temperament.


----------



## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Yes you correct that there are no perfect GSD's. But IF I am going to produce pups then I want to start with great temperament. The problem I saw with the three bitches that you gave us, is there was no consistency with them, body size and possibly type was all over the place, hips not consistent, and pretty inconsistent temperament, considering they were all raised in the same environment.

I don't think all litter mates need to be exactly alike, but you want to find a really good female that will produce well with consistent results. She is 50% of the gene pool so if she comes from a litter that is all over the place that is what her gene make up is. 

Temperament is first on my list, then the myriad of health issues, the preferences in appearance, but the first two issues really almost carry the same weight. 

Val


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

In reality, I also would breed none of the above. Spay all 3 bitches, place them in appropriate homes, and start over. If I DID have to make a decision, I still really couldn't based on the info presented. There just isn't enough info to go on. Many more questions about each that would need to be answered. I also agree about the inconsistency amongst the 3 littermates being a major concern. Especially since there is inconsistency in so many areas. That makes for much less predictability about the genetics each carries and will produce... for example, correctly sized Amy could carry Barb's undersized genes and/or Candice oversized genes as well, and would have a high chance of producing that even though she's correctly sized herself.

But, in the essence of playing along.. lets say someone is holding a gun to my head and I absolutely MUST choose a breeding. None of these would produce the sort of dog I want, but since not breeding isn't an option, I'd choose to cause the least amount of damage.

Therefore, as nerve would be my most important consideration, I would eliminate Barb right off the bat as a breeding candidate. Dogs with low drive, over/undersized, even many health problems can still have their uses. If nothing else they can be good pets. But dogs with poor nerve are useless for anything, be it working or pets, and can be a headache and heartache to even try to live with, and of course in some cases a dangerous liability. 

Another reason I would eliminate Barb is her size. I'm assuming the 1" under desired height means 1" under the minimum allowed by the standard, in which case we're talking one very small bitch. While for many applications an undersized GSD would be more advantageous than an oversized one, her tiny stature would cause worry about her ability to safely carry and whelp a litter of pups. Since the health and safety of my bitches is one of my biggest concerns in breeding, and I'd probably be locked up in a padded room somewhere if we lost a bitch to a litter, I'd be too worried about ramifications due to her small size. especially since based on the genetics running around in her littermates I can expect some oversized and heavy boned pups.

Hips appear to not really be a worry here with any of them. While there is variancy amongst the official ratings, all of these are littermates have passing grades, as do their parents and according to the info presented "each has been bred to other dogs before and thrown the same as themselves each time", so all are producing passing hips. That being much more important than if the dog itself is OFA Fair or OFA Excellent, I'd consider them all pretty well equal in that standpoint. So regardless of whom I breed, based on that I can feel comfortable with the hips that will be produced.

I'm going to assume that there are no other health issues or other serious faults in any of these dogs, their parents or siblings, since they weren't mentioned here.

So, since Barb is definitely out, for 2 reasons, that leaves Amy and Candice. Here it's a toss up. Biggest attraction to Amy is the "bombproof" temperament, followed by correct size. Don't care for excessively light boned, or medium drive. Candice has better bone and better drive, but is way oversized. And while "good" tempermanet is good, "bombproof" is better.

IMO, Amy has the least faults, so I would choose Amy for her temperament and size. Bone could hopefully be increased through good breeding in future generations. As, possibly could drive. Even if we're stuck with "medium drive" for all eternity, that's not the end of the world. Never going to produce the sort of dogs I want, but then again I'm doing this because I have to, with that gun to my head and all. The dogs produced would at minimum at least be able to be good pets, and likely could do well in some dogsport venues (obedience, tracking, etc...), could make excellent service dogs, etc.. So they would have their uses, even if not the sort of dog I prefer.

She would be bred to either Zeke or Yipper. Again, crossing Xen off due to temperament faults. Neither is a good choice for her, IMO, but I'd probably lean toward Yipper for better hips and to ensure the pups all get at least that bombproof temperament.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Though I don't have enough info to make decision, if forced it would be Yipper to Amy. Temperament trumps all....hips should be stable.....you will get a wide diversity in size,color, bone, etc. anyway.....cannot have the diversity in temperament.JMO.


----------



## Malinoid (Jan 28, 2008)

Always keep in mind that any given puppy (or puppies) may only be as good as the parent's 'worst' sibling.

John Haudenshield


----------



## EJQ (May 13, 2003)

Interesting exercise.

My very first concern would be with the girls and the differences in the littermates, but that’s not the issue.

If I am going to be “encouraged” to make some choices for breeding (based upon the available dogs) I would breed for family pets/companions.

As far as the girls are concerned I would discount Barb (sometimes unsure in new situations but acclimates given time) leaving Amy and Candice. Since I would breed for pet/companion, all things being equal, I would choose Amy because of her bombproof temperament.

I’m up in the air about the boys – not crazy about the choices. That being said my least choice would be Xen. As with Barb, it's the temperament issue. In my opinion the best match would be Amy and Yipper. I like Yipper’s temperament and his hips. I would not be too concerned about his size.


----------



## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

Great thread for learning!


----------



## northwoodsGSD (Jan 30, 2006)

bumping for any new input. love the info/reasoning behind each decision!


----------

