# Could it just be her adolescent stage?



## maureen_mickel (Jul 17, 2011)

Hi there! My 9 month old gsd puppy, Celia, is usually a friendly puppy to people. But over the past few months, she had started to ger kinda agressive to other dogs and bark at them like crazy. She has snapped at a couple dogs so i have to warn people who want to pet her that have dogs with them. I have tried to get her to play with them but she will just chase them and terrorize them with a bunch on barks that dont stop!!! Is this just a phase? Or wll she always be like this! If so, how can i stop it or atleast ease it? Help!!


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## GSDMUM (Aug 18, 2011)

maureen_mickel said:


> Hi there! My 9 month old gsd puppy, Celia, is usually a friendly puppy to people. But over the past few months, she had started to ger kinda agressive to other dogs and bark at them like crazy. She has snapped at a couple dogs so i have to warn people who want to pet her that have dogs with them. I have tried to get her to play with them but she will just chase them and terrorize them with a bunch on barks that dont stop!!! Is this just a phase? Or wll she always be like this! If so, how can i stop it or atleast ease it? Help!!


I don't know but mine is 8 months old and is having the same issues with other dogs. I just got a new trainer to plan to help her out of it. With mine, it may be because she and the pit bull next door had fence fights, so we put up a solid privacy fence. My new trainer said with training I will be able to control her but that one can never force a dog to like ALL other dogs but that she will be trained to ignore passing dogs and keep focused on me. Mine has a high prey drive that fuels the lunging at other animals. Still figuring it all out. Good luck and keep us posted as well!


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

i have a 9 month old that has to cause a scene everytime she sees another dog. i am at my wits end!


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

I have a 10 month old like that, why does it seem to be such an issue in GSDs anymore?


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## SolarShiva (Mar 20, 2012)

I would definitely get some training going NOW. My Shepherd mix started getting iffy with dogs around the one year mark, only actually reacted to one though that ran it's fence and barked aggressively. I took him back to the trainer I had used previously for more classes so he'd be around different dogs more. He was okay for a while, but reacted if a dog got too close to us, pretty much just telling them "get out of my space!" Then we got ran at by a loose dog in the apartment we lived in, after that he started reacting aggressively at the mere sight of another dog.

If you don't start training now, it very likely could get worse. One of the trainers at the place I found when looking for a trainer for my Shepherd said that this kind of behavior usually starts around 1 if it's going to start. 

Right now though, I'd strongly suggest not letting anyone with a dog near her. If the dog backs off after she snaps at it, she's only learning that "snapping at that scary(or whatever reasons she's snapping at it) dog makes it go away." Dog aggression is usually, keep in mind I said usually, fear related so the fearful dog learns by experience that being aggressive keeps the scary dogs away and you definitely don't want her to learn this. The other thing is she could accidentally bite the owner of the other dog and I don't think you want that. Dog aggressive dogs can do what's called redirecting. They get so excited and if they can't get at the dog that's causing the problem they can't help it and bite whatever is near them, another dog they know, or even a person. It's not an intentional bite, but you still don't want an accidental bite to happen.

Good luck with this. If you get training started now before it gets worse, you will probably have more luck than I did.


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

What to train? Stella is currently in obedience and agility with different trainers. Both basically say just to keep turning her away from the other dog and not to let her stare at other dogs. Easier said than done, but I try. She is getting better in her classes as long as other dogs keep there distance. It is outside of class that is awful. I have a 9 yr old mix that got dog aggressive around 1 yr old and unfortunately I was not in a position to really work with him at the time. So he eventually had to stop going anywhere with other dogs. No off leash time for him. He has adjusted to Stella amazingly enough. But I want to be able to walk Stella without losing an arm and to take her places where we might actually encounter other dogs. Not sure what to do.


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## SolarShiva (Mar 20, 2012)

I'd personally try to find a trainer that does private sessions. They can come to your house and work with you there and after you've had some time to work on what they taught you, meet them somewhere where there will be dogs and they can teach you what to do there. 

Sounds like your instructor(s) is/are strictly positive with the only telling you to turn her away bit. I'm not into the dog whisperers methods by any means, but some of the time with dog aggression you need to be a little bit tuffer and strictly positive training doesn't work. For some dogs it does, for others, like mine, it doesn't. The first trainer I found prior to the ones I use now, was purely positive and didn't like me using a prong collar, she wanted me to use a gentle leader. Sorry, but I tried a gentle leader with my Shepherd mix prior to him reacting at the mere sight of another dog and it CAUSED him to react! Yeah, I'm really going to use something that actually caused my dog to react when he had only reacted if a dog got too close to him at that time. Plus, my dog is over 100 pounds, there was no way I could control him with a gentle leader if he lunged at a dog, I'd have been in trouble. With the prong collar I have the control I need to be able to have over him. Now that I got side tracked, what your trainer is telling you is pretty much what she wanted me to do, keep him at a distance and give him treats when he didn't react. I lived in an apartment at the time so keeping him far enough away from other dogs was almost impossible when I could easily run into one leaving or coming in the building, and her methods weren't helping so I found the ones I use now. If you check out the barking thread, I posted links to sites where you can look up certified trainers in your area. 

I know how you feel and so wish I had found the trainers I now use prior to Rio's aggression towards other dogs becoming so bad. If I had, he might not have become as bad as he did. The only plus, at least I know them now and don't have to go looking for a good trainer now that I'm having fear issues with my Aussie/Border Collie mix pup.


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## TheVintageAngel (Oct 4, 2011)

Well, at least misery loves company. I have a 7 month old GSD that also is very reactive to dogs. No snapping...but all kinds of barking and pulling...to the point where I got too scared/embarrassed to walk her and now my hubby is taking her for her walk each day. We recently started using a prong collar on her and according to hubby, it is the wave of the future. They were leaving on their walk today and I saw a lot of other dogs walking and said "good luck, I see lots of dogs out there"...he said "who needs luck when you have the prong collar". She barked and went a little crazy at the first one they passed and he had to give her a bit of a correction with it (our trainer fitted her with it and showed us the proper way to do a correction without hurting her). I can say Jemma did NOT like this correction and it helped prevent most of the bad behavior the rest of the walk. At one point, a two small dogs were outside playing with small children and Jemma and my hubby were walking on the sidewalk across the street...both dogs got away from the kids (no parents in sight) and ran across the streeting and started jumping all over Jemma. Josh said he held his breath and her leash tight...but luckily, probably thanks to all those Puppy Socialization Preschool classes...Jemma just played with them wildly and took it in stride. I hope to soon get my confidence back and feel like walking her again now that we have the prong collar.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Those of you with puppies 7-10 month range, hang in there & keep training & continue to go out in public! I remember that age & we have been in group training classes since mine was 12 weeks. We would pass another dog & he would act crazy, "how dare you breath on my planet!". Close to a year old the reaction to other dogs really calmed down, now he could care less. Of course there are some dogs that get his attention but not very often.

Again, patience & training....just like with the mouthing phase lol


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

I keep hoping this is a phase. I remember the landshark phase and I thought it would never end! But it did and now we are in the "I am going to rip mom's arms out of the sockets because there is a dog approaching" phase. lol. Stella didn't succeed in biting my arms and legs off, so now maybe she can just pull them out of place!!!!! 
In the meantime, do I keep walking her around other dogs? Use a prong collar? 
She is fine in doggie day care and has really done well at Obedience. In fact yesterday in class, she walked right next to other dogs, let others walk right by her without any usual nonsense. I guess I shouldn't have gotten a big head about how well she did because on a walk later in the day she turned into a mad dog while on a walk. 
Two steps forward, one step back. Or sometimes one step forward, two steps back.


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## lexachick27 (Jan 18, 2012)

katdog5911 said:


> I keep hoping this is a phase. I remember the landshark phase and I thought it would never end! But it did and now we are in the "I am going to rip mom's arms out of the sockets because there is a dog approaching" phase. lol. Stella didn't succeed in biting my arms and legs off, so now maybe she can just pull them out of place!!!!!
> In the meantime, do I keep walking her around other dogs? Use a prong collar?
> She is fine in doggie day care and has really done well at Obedience. In fact yesterday in class, she walked right next to other dogs, let others walk right by her without any usual nonsense. I guess I shouldn't have gotten a big head about how well she did because on a walk later in the day she turned into a mad dog while on a walk.
> Two steps forward, one step back. Or sometimes one step forward, two steps back.


Hello,

Have you had any luck yet? I'm having the same issues with my 9.5 month old male... who is about 100lbs. We're working with an e collar trainer and I'm hoping it will work! We also use a prong. If you've figured out how to fix it I'd really appreciate any advice!! 

Thanks!


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

Not even close to figuring this out. Not even sure why Stella does this. Is it fear or just over excitement? 
Yesterday I took her to the dog park very early hoping that maybe there wouldn't be a lot of dogs there. Where weren't any there so she was just wandering around for a while. Eventually a car pulled up with another dog. Stella charged the fence, hackles up, barking and lunging like a lunatic at the other dog. The other people put their dog in the small dog area. Stella continued her lunacy for a few minutes and then started to just yip and play bow but I decided to leave. Then this morning I was walking her on her long line. We saw a lady walking her 2 dogs further down the road. Stella started barking...not in lunatic mode but still barking. I tried to get her attention but forget it. Only when the dogs were out of sight did she stop. I figured maybe my treats weren't high value enough so I bought chicken livers and prepared them this morning to use on our walk. Even those couldn't distract her.
I am waiting for a trainer to call me. Maybe she will have some advice for me.


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## RMF (Oct 1, 2011)

We have the same problem, reactive dog. I think it's a little bit of both, fear & definitely excitement. 

We started obedience school a few weeks ago. Their method to stop the barking, especially at other dogs is a spray bottle with a 20% white vinegar/80% water mix. Spray their face. It works. The result is about the same as when you cut an onion.

Now we are in a behavior mod class for 3 weeks along with a few other dogs from the o/b class, give them a little extra help. One other thing the trainer suggested was L-Theanine, helps calm them down too.

We are getting there, slowly but surely.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Take a look at the following articles - they are very informative.

Help For Your Reactive Dog

ASPCA - Virtual Pet Behaviorist - Dogs Who Are Reactive on Leash

http://www.4pawsu.com/onleashaggression.htmhttp://www.diamondsintheruff.com/onleashreactive.html

Leash Aggression: Help! My On-Leash Dog Barks and Lunges at Other Dogs!

Pawsitive Feedback's Dog Blog - www.pawsitivefeedback.com: What is a Leash Reactive Dog?

Pawsitive Feedback's Dog Blog - www.pawsitivefeedback.com: leash aggression

You may also want to get the following books:

'Feisty Fido' by Patricia McConnell and Karen London

'Scaredy Dog' by Ali Brown

Hope they are useful to you all, as the longer it goes on and the more reactive dogs get - the harder it is to deal with.

Sue


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> We started obedience school a few weeks ago. Their method to stop the barking, especially at other dogs is a spray bottle with a 20% white vinegar/80% water mix. Spray their face. It works. The result is about the same as when you cut an onion.





> We're working with an e collar trainer and I'm hoping it will work! We also use a prong.


Well, there's some surefire ways to get them to like and look forward to meeting other dogs!

You do realize that you're teaching the dogs in question nothing but to dread meeting other dogs?

It starts with the barrier (frustration) - and progresses to "every time I see another dog, mom goes nuts, all nervous and jerking on the leash, hurting my neck/squirting me in the face"?


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

That's why I posted the links msvette2u - it's so easy to get it wrong and make the situation a whole lot worse - I know, I did it myself unfortunately. 

I wouldn't want anyone to make the same mistakes I did. 

Sue


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

IME, people don't really read links. I didn't click on yours (but we're not having this issue either).

Can you either describe what you did, or copy the whole articles into the posts?


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> IME, people don't really read links. I didn't click on yours (but we're not having this issue either).
> 
> Can you either describe what you did, or copy the whole articles into the posts?


That's what I wanted to do. I spent ages writing it out - and then saw in another thread, that there's a limit to the size of post you can use on the forum - and it was well over the 1000 word limit. Unfortunately so are the links - so I couldn't post those either. 

It's not a easy subject to address in short posts. 

Sue


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Well you can break up the posts into smaller chunks. Talk to a mod.

When a trainer advises squirting dogs with freaking water bottles with vinegar, that is a red flag


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Makes you wonder how they can call themselves trainers? Gives good trainers a bad name.

I'll have a word with the mods.

Thanks msvette2u,

Sue


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

I think SolarShiva had some good advice. I really don't have any more than that, other than with our dog, starting at about 10 months I had to be just as hypervigilant as she was. We did a lot of training, the trainer who was the dog's breeder, said our dog was super strong willed - hard to train. And I thought, well she's your creation.

Anyhow, we found a trainer that incorporated a lot of agility into obedience training and that seemed to make better use of her energy and drive. This trainer still says our dog is super strong willed.

One of the things I think might have helped (which our trainer promised, but never followed through on) was having our dog play with a few other well trained older dogs who could correct her themselves. But I really believe this must be done in a controlled professional environment, so finding a good trainer will be your biggest chore at this time. The reason why I say this is that the other night, my 2 year old girl met for the first time my husband's friend black GSD. He is huge, 125lbs, but mellow, he is 10 years old. He was trained by our current trainer many years ago. This dog has a presence...for the first time my dog did not react to a dog either positive or negative. I hope we can get together again.

Have patience, when our dog got to be about 18 months, things got a little better, but we still have moments. The owner of the black GSD, said his dog was the same way until he reached about 5 years old.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

I agree Gretchen, I copied SolarShiva post below.

The biggest problem with reactive dogs is the owner (I definately include myself in that). They inadvertently teach their dogs to react even more. They discover their dog has started to be react and learn to prepare for it. They subconsciously tighten the lead - the tension travels down the leash to the dog, who then thinks there must be something to worry about..... and hence the start of a vicious circle. 

The most important thing is not to use aversives of any kind, choke chains, prong or pinch collars, shock collars, sprays etc. Because a fearful dog will be even more fearful, and an aggressive dog will be even more aggressive. And an over enthusiastic dog may well become aggressive. 

The aim is to show fearful dogs that the owner won't put them into situations they can't handle, and will deal with problems for them. The dogs feelings towards other dogs needs to change, so they don't feel the need to react. 

More enthusiatic or aggressive dogs need to learn how to ignore other dogs. They need rewarding when they ignore dogs and do something else instead. 

Dogs need to be on a loose lead and at a safe distance, where they can be taught not to react to other dogs. 

Training school, where dogs are working close together should be put on hold until the problem is dealt with, as the dogs are put into situations they can't handle. They may appear to cope in class and then go crazy when they see one dog on a walk.

The problem is - one size doesn't fit all. It depends why the dog is reacting in the first place.

If you can find a good trainer to work with - great. Ask questions as to how they intend to help. If they mention aversives - don't use them. It helps if they have non-reactive dogs of their own to work with at a distance. 




SolarShiva said:


> I would definitely get some training going NOW. My Shepherd mix started getting iffy with dogs around the one year mark, only actually reacted to one though that ran it's fence and barked aggressively. I took him back to the trainer I had used previously for more classes so he'd be around different dogs more. He was okay for a while, but reacted if a dog got too close to us, pretty much just telling them "get out of my space!" Then we got ran at by a loose dog in the apartment we lived in, after that he started reacting aggressively at the mere sight of another dog.
> 
> If you don't start training now, it very likely could get worse. One of the trainers at the place I found when looking for a trainer for my Shepherd said that this kind of behavior usually starts around 1 if it's going to start.
> 
> ...


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## RMF (Oct 1, 2011)

Well she must be doing something right. Her classes are always full, gets good reviews & recommendations, & we were impressed seeing one of her own dogs in action.

The spray bottle is part of the training. We've had to use it less & less as time has gone on. He's getting it, so it must be working.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

RMF said:


> We started obedience school a few weeks ago. Their method to stop the barking, especially at other dogs is a spray bottle with a 20% white vinegar/80% water mix. Spray their face. It works. The result is about the same as when you cut an onion.


This may be working, but the problem I have with it is if you stop the barking, you are losing a warning, a valuable tool since some dogs react in a flash. With Woolf, I want to watch his facial and body cues and redirect BEFORE he reaches the growl and bark stage. Once Woolf, and most reactive dogs, reach the growl and bark stage he is over his threshold and the best thing to be done is for him to be gotten out of the situation and allowed recovery time.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Squirt bottles teach dogs nothing. What have you taught the dog, that getting squirted is unpleasant? That oncoming dogs mean awful things are going to happen?
Have you actually cured the issue?? Or just the symptoms?


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

RMF said:


> We have the same problem, reactive dog. I think it's a little bit of both, fear & definitely excitement.
> 
> We started obedience school a few weeks ago. Their method to stop the barking, especially at other dogs is a spray bottle with a 20% white vinegar/80% water mix. Spray their face. It works. The result is about the same as when you cut an onion.
> 
> ...


RMF, 

How is your trainer going about the behaviour modification ?

Sue


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

Well, I had a trainer come to my house. Her advice when Stella sees a dog was to stop walking, say her name, say come while walking or running in the opposite direction. When she does come....lots of praise and treats or toy. She had Stella not reacting to her dog in less that 10 minutes. I have been working on this and find that it is effective as long as Stella is under threshold and hasn't gotten too carried away. Today that was very hard....we were walking in the woods and had to pass 4 other dogs rather closely as the trail was narrow in some spots. She did very good with 1, so so with another and not good with the other 2. But that is progress....before it would have been bad with all. And we are continuing with classes.... she is getting better. The trick seems to be to make sure she is hungry and bring high value treats. I guess we are moving in a good direction but man oh man....I am soooooo tired.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

katdog5911 said:


> Well, I had a trainer come to my house. Her advice when Stella sees a dog was to stop walking, say her name, say come while walking or running in the opposite direction. When she does come....lots of praise and treats or toy. She had Stella not reacting to her dog in less that 10 minutes. I have been working on this and find that it is effective as long as Stella is under threshold and hasn't gotten too carried away. Today that was very hard....we were walking in the woods and had to pass 4 other dogs rather closely as the trail was narrow in some spots. She did very good with 1, so so with another and not good with the other 2. But that is progress....before it would have been bad with all. And we are continuing with classes.... she is getting better. The trick seems to be to make sure she is hungry and bring high value treats. I guess we are moving in a good direction but man oh man....I am soooooo tired.


Katdogs 

That's very interesting, because I was reading Patricia Mconnells Blog today, she's one of the authors of Feisty Fido. 

Dog-Dog Reactivity – Treatment Summary TheOtherEndoftheLeash

That's the link to the full blog - but one section I found particularly interesting and amusing. I hadn't heard of this before 




> *4. Operant Conditioning, Positive Punishment: The only example of Positive Punishment that I ever use in these cases is Trish King’s “Abandonment Training.” In this scenario, a dog is both on a leash and a long line, with the owner holding the leash as usual and a trainer holding the long line as a safety net. As they approach another dog, if the subject dog barks and lunges, the owner throws the leash onto the dog’s back (tactile cue) and runs like heck the other way. Basically, the dog is ‘deserted’ by the owner, and if it is bothered by that, it stops the behavior very, very quickly. I’ve seen it work beautifully on some dogs, but as Trish advises, this is only for clingy dogs who care deeply about being with their owner. (Can you spell German Shepherd? Forgive me, but do the GSD folks out there agree that GSDs seem to care deeply about being with their humans, more so than many other dogs? I am NOT saying this is appropriate for every GSD, or not for other breeds, don’t get me in trouble by misquoting me!)*


Do you think that sounds like what you're trainers trying to do. Can you please let us know how you get on?

It's a shame you met four dogs today, that's lot for you and your dog to handle. Perhaps you can turn around and walk in the opposite direction next time. When the path widens you can then manage to get your dog at a more comfortable distance from the other dog/s. 

Sue


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

jakes mom said:


> Take a look at the following articles - they are very informative.
> 
> You may also want to get the following books:
> 
> ...


Regarding Feisty Fido, somebody elsewhere wrote: "Little mention is given to dogs that aggress for other reasons such as medical problems, misdirected prey drive, dominance issues or innate high fight drive." These reasons obviously differ from fear aggression which so much information is directed. 

1 - How does one determine which, if any, of the above applies to a particular dog?

2 - In the case of "innate high fight drive", will positive techniques be effective? More so? Less?


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## GSDkid (Apr 19, 2011)

I don't really have this issue but I'm assuming it's mainly because the other dogs provoke yours? and that's where your dog probably learned it.

My girl is pretty curious about other dogs. She loves to meet them and sniff and she's not a barker but once a dog barks at her, she gets super excited and pulls. If the other dog does not bark and calmly sniffs Abby too, they're great. No hackles and no pulling. Before we moved to our apartment, we were renting a house. The dogs there were great citizens. Once we moved to the apartments, Abby has growled at some of those annoying little dogs that just keeps barking away. There are a lot and I believe they are the source of the aggression. Whenever she reacts, I'll just redirect it by giving her a command or drawing her attention towards me instead of focusing on the problem. I find that yanking the leash escalates the excitement.

Also, if you're living in the apartments, I'm sure neighbors would have their blinds open and their dogs would bark non-stop. Take the time to train your dog near the window. Get them used to the barking and the excitement. Heck, if their owner isn't going to correct their dog then I'll take full advantage of it and teach my girl to tolerate such behavior.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Falkosmom said:


> Regarding Feisty Fido, somebody elsewhere wrote: "Little mention is given to dogs that aggress for other reasons such as medical problems, misdirected prey drive, dominance issues or innate high fight drive." These reasons obviously differ from fear aggression which so much information is directed.
> 
> 1 - How does one determine which, if any, of the above applies to a particular dog?
> 
> 2 - In the case of "innate high fight drive", will positive techniques be effective? More so? Less?


 
Hi Falkosmom

You can normally tell by the dogs body language. Take a look at the following:

Turid Rugaas - Calming Signals Community





 




 




 




 
Yes you can calm a herding /chase instinct reactive dog by positive methods. Our last dog Sammy was h*** on legs. Truly, he exhausted us, he was way too over enthusiatic, and definately had a strong chase/ herd drive. It took years of trial and error (plenty of errors) but we did sort him eventually. I'll describe how we managed to calm him in the next post. 

You can tell reasonably easily what type of reactivity it is. Take your dog to a field, or by a vets office where you are sure to see other dogs. Keep his leash loose and see what he does when he is a good distance away from other dogs. If he hides behind you and tries to get away from other dogs - he's fearful. If he pulls like crazy to get to them, without his hackles up, it's more likely to be over enthusiasm to play. If he more or less ignores dogs that are standing still but goes ballistic for moving dogs - it's prey or herding instinct. 

In this post I'll tell you about Jake - our current dog. 

When we had Jake he was 5 years old. We had no idea how he was with other dogs. We just knew he wasn't good with cats. He had had very little outside time, apart from the garden(yard). He was very nervous of our Dalmation, and kept licking her. But if she approached him - he would growl at her. 

He didn't walk well on a leash, so the first thing I did was to teach him how to walk on a loose leash. Once he could walk well on a loose leash we took him to our local common. We had clear views, and plenty of dogs around. I kept his leash loose, and followed as he walked wherever he wanted to. It was obvious that he wasn't comfortable with other dogs, because he would look for them, but then go out of his way to avoid them. He would sometimes approach within a certain distance and then turn away from them. So he was a little fearful, rather than very fearful. Too close and he would lunge aggressively. 

I started giving Jake treats each time he saw another dog - we did that until we reached the stage that whenever he saw a dog he started to look at me for a treat. 

I then stopped giving him treats simply for looking at another dog, and started tossing a treat on the ground away from him, when he went to get it, he had to stop looking at the other dog, and the second he did I'd tell him how good he was. 

I then started only giving him a treat, once he had stopped looking at other dogs on his own accord and did something else instead, such as turning away from them or sniffing the ground. 

More or less we left it to him to decide how close he wanted to go. 
He slowly started getting closer and closer. First of all he started to follow other dogs. Then he's walk parallel in the same direction, then he progressed to walking towards a dog who was standing still, and finally he let them approach reasonably close. He can now walk by most other dogs with no problem. Just the occasional dog makes him feel uncomfortable and he turns his head away from them. 

Unfortunately we cannot let him get any closer - because he does have a medical problem and could agress with no warning whatsoever.

We always observe the body language of approaching dogs, and we make sure we move him away, by walking in a wide arc or crossing the road or turning round and walking in the opposite direction, if we are in the least bit unsure. 

That's sounds all very simple - but we were lucky in having a good place to work with him, and plenty of learnt lessons from our dog Sammy. We also had bad days when we couldn't avoid dogs - he would then lunge aggressively. But these occasions got less and less. 

Unless you are lucky and have a good place to work - I would seriously consider hiring a good trainer, who has the facilitiies and other dogs to work with. The longer it goes on - the harder it is to deal with, and the longer it takes. 

Sue


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

jakes mom said:


> Hi Falkosmom
> 
> You can normally tell by the dogs body language.
> 
> ...


Thank you thank you thank you!

I keep reading about dog reactivity due to fear, and though the training processes could be the same, I never felt comfortable using them as I did not feel Tybor was afraid. As this has been an issue since I got him at 14 weeks, I assumed it was not necessarily an aggression issue either.

I think you are right and it may be prey or herding instinct. I feel far more comfortable with what I am seeing now. He does not react to dogs at a distance, even if moving. He is far less reactive to small dogs. He is most reactive at a mid to close distance to moving dogs, especially coming towards us, and most of all as they pass. Once they are going away, he quickly calms down. He can walk with a dog in the same direction and not be that bad.

He can lay down at the vets for hours (8 or more, Falko's ultrasound/chemo days) and be fairly well behaved unless a dog is moving a bit too close or is moving by rapidly, that really sets him off.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Falkosmom said:


> He can lay down at the vets for hours (8 or more, Falko's ultrasound/chemo days) and be fairly well behaved unless a dog is moving a bit too close or is moving by rapidly, that really sets him off.


Falkosmom,

You dog sounds like my previous dog Sammy. He was like that at the vets. 

I'm so sorry Tybor's undergoing ultrasound/ chemo - what's the problem with him - poor pup. 

As for him being reactive, it doesn't sound like you've got much to worry about.

Does he understand the 'leave it' command really well. Just in case he doesn't check out this video. It's really good for teaching them self control. And a really solid 'leave it' works for loads of things, including other dogs. 





 
Work with Tybor at a distance where you know he won't react. For instance, if another dog is approaching you, go in a wide arc so he passes at a distance where he won't react. Tell him to 'leave it' (which he should if you're at safe distance) and assuming he does, tell him he's a good boy and give him a treat (if he'll take one) or play tug with him. Tug's really good because it helps to satify the prey drive. 

Or as soon as you can tell he's getting a bit too interested in the other dog toss a ball a short distance in front of him, or happily call his name and start running. You need to keep his interest on you - not the other dog. All the time he's being calm, tell him what a good boy he is. Dogs love to please their owners. 

Can Tybor walk on a loose lead, if not, please ask for help. 

That's the biggest mistake, if you think your dog is going to react you tend to tighten the lead in preparation. It's amazing how it sends a signal to your dog that you're worried, and then he is, too. That's the best about being at a safe distance, you can resist that urge. 

Try as you might, you will never always be able to keep a safe distance.
If you can't - turn around and walk the other way, cross the road, get behind a parked car - whatever you can. Just make sure you are a barrier between Tybor and the other dog. Shorten the leash, but still keep it as loose as possible, and be ready to hold tight if necessary. I always hold the leash with two hands. I have the loop over my wrist and between my fingers of the one hand, and the other hand loosely on the leash - ready to grip if needed. 

If you can't avoid conflict, try and turn Tybor so he is facing away from the other dog, so there is no eye contact. Just hold onto him while he reacts (you won't stop him anyway once he's in full flow and he won't hear you) but the second he starts to calm, loosen the lead, praise him and give him a treat. 

Tip: If you need to turn around - don't just turn and drag your dog to come with you. It's much better if you push into your dog to turn him, because dogs push each other - they don't pull each other. 

Hope that makes sense - if it doesn't, please say and ask questions. 

Sue


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

Thanks for the great info! And thanks for asking about Tybor but it is his big brother Falko that is ill, the world's most perfect, biddable, dog-loving, easy dog. I would hope that his gentle loving demeanor towards other dogs would have been an excellent model for Tybor, but no. I could not get that lucky twice! LOL!

I have not had a chance to watch that leave it clip yet, but I watched another one the other day and have been working with him on leave it. I will make time to see it.

I have watched the other videos you posted, and if I were to describe Tybor's actions, it would be ears up, and eyes burning holes through whatever he was focused on. And that is before the reactivity begins. 

Right now, because his obedience stinks when outside, (except for his recall), I try not to work him around other dogs too much. When I do, it is either outside of a dog park or it is using neighbors' fenced in dogs. I have not tried a tug or ball to redirect him, but I will. I have also changed training methods with him, he was not responding well or reliably to newer methods, and his outdoors obedience has been drastically improving.

Tybor does walk fairly well on a loose lead once we get going. He is a little unruly at the start of a walk, but he is only 11 months. In fact, he walks very well on or off lead as long as there are no dogs around. And sometimes even then, leashed, if the dogs are smaller or not all that reactive themselves and all behind fences.

Off leash, we did see a dog at a distance 2 times the other day and he recalled quite nicely both times. And he knew what he saw.

There is no doubt I tighten up on that leash when we have no choice but to pass a dog in close quarters. He is 90#s now and I know he will bite the other dog. I know that makes the problem worse, but when he was 16 wks, he bit a Bernese Mountain Dog, twice. He was on a loose lead, the other dog was off leash.

I do try to turn him around to let another dog pass safely. It does help. And I do use the barrier method if possible. I also do push rather than pull, it does work better for him. 

Tybor is a very confident, curious, bold pup. Since reading your earlier post, I was able to surf the net looking for information _without a fear aggressive dog approach in mind_. I found an article that spoke of how unnatural it is for strange dogs to rapidly aprroach each other, facing each other head on. The article explained that dogs have their own method of approach which occurs on a whole different level. I have seen this ritual over and over, and I am going with my gut reaction that this unnatural approach is a part of his problem. Does that make sense? It seems that to me, his reactivity is at least a two part situation that needs both aspects worked on.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Falkosmom said:


> Thanks for the great info! And thanks for asking about Tybor but it is his big brother Falko that is ill, the world's most perfect, biddable, dog-loving, easy dog. I would hope that his gentle loving demeanor towards other dogs would have been an excellent model for Tybor, but no. I could not get that lucky twice! LOL!
> That's funny, because when we had Sammy we had a gorgeous well behaved older GSD,Gemma, who never even wore a leash. We hoped the same as you - but the opposite happened - she became very protective of Sammy - and we had to start keeping her on leash at age 11.
> 
> 
> ...


 
Look on the bright side - it's only dogs with problems we learn anything from really. They are hard work though - bless 'em.

Get to really know how Tybor looks when he's calm and relaxed and watch closely for any signs of stress and increase the distance before he gets chance to react. 

Concentrate on getting his attention on you with the 'watch me' command and by being fun - I find breaking into a short run works wonders. Don't expect to much of him until you have a rock solid 'leave it' and 'watch me' indoors first.

As he's ok with dogs walking parallel in the same direction - take advantage of that and close the gap, providing the other dog looks ok. Always praise calm behaviour, and give him treats. Make him feel good about other dogs. 

By trying all of the things we've mentioned you ought to be able to start closing the gap slowly. If you see no improvement at all after a few weeks - I'd take him to a good trainer. 

One other thing - if you and Tybor have one bad experience on a walk don't worry, but if you have one of those days, when there seems to be bad- mannered dogs everywhere, cut your walk short and go back home. He'll need to de-stress. More shorter uneventful walks are much better for him. Bad experiences will take his stress level through the roof - and then he's far more likely to aggress. 

When you get the chance and it's quiet, practice loose leash walking, and keep changing direction, left, right, go the other way, really keep it interesting by changing directions regularly - so he has to play catch up - great way to get his attention. 

Sue


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Look on the bright side - *it's only dogs with problems we learn anything from really.* They are hard work though - bless 'em.


LOL I say this thing all the time about our foster dogs!


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## kdiaz54 (Apr 1, 2012)

maureen_mickel said:


> Hi there! My 9 month old gsd puppy, Celia, is usually a friendly puppy to people. But over the past few months, she had started to ger kinda agressive to other dogs and bark at them like crazy. She has snapped at a couple dogs so i have to warn people who want to pet her that have dogs with them. I have tried to get her to play with them but she will just chase them and terrorize them with a bunch on barks that dont stop!!! Is this just a phase? Or wll she always be like this! If so, how can i stop it or atleast ease it? Help!!


I'm having the same issue with my dog but he's only snapped at one dog so far. I would advise some training. The trainer I was using said to keep my leash at my waist and tighten it. Well that only made the situation worse. Needless to say I found a new trainer. I took time and did some research. I met with the trainer first and he wanted me to come down and watch his class and bring Bronx down to see how he is. Well after 20 minutes of Bronx being there he was a completely different dog. We sat in class and when he started to bark used the corrections he showed us and calmed down. I was shell shocked we had a group of 7 dogs walk by him and not a peep came out of him and the leash was loose. Soo much stress was lifted off my shoulders. Training would be good to use and go watch the classes first and see if they will meet your dog first. It really ment a lot to use for the trainer to have us come down for a hour and meet us and our dog to make sure he was placed in the course best suited for his behavior.


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

_"I have watched the other videos you posted, and if I were to describe Tybor's actions, it would be ears up, and eyes burning holes through whatever he was focused on. And that is before the reactivity begins._
_Truthfully - I don't know. Could be aggression - but a fearful dog will also react like that on leash, when really stressed. Does he growl or snarl - or just stare. Has he ever been corrected for growling/snarling. Have you considered a good head collar (I use the dogmatic) they are really good for breaking the stare - and have the added advantage of shutting the dogs mouth if they do lunge. Also great at the vets, and for close up encounters - hold the loop loosely under the jaw, and you 100% control even very close up. Gives you peace of mind"_

_He does not growl or snarl. He is silent, stalking, pulling, intensely focused on the other dog. I have never corrected for growling or snarling, per se, as he only does it when he becomes reactive. The Dogmatic sounds great but seems you can't buy them here._

_"I have also changed training methods with him, he was not responding well or reliably to newer methods, and his outdoors obedience has been drastically improving._
_What methods do you feel didn't work? "_

_I liked teaching him using treats, but found his obedience sporadic and unreliable. I switched to good old fashioned sit and push his butt down, then praise. Did that about five times while walking him off leash after giving some recalls. We has to pass a dog on the trail, no way out of it. I told him to sit, and for the first time ever with an approaching dog, he sat. And, even better, he stayed sitting as the dog passed about nine feet away from us. I thought it was interesting though as his normal roars and snarls that accompany his usual lunging turned into shrieks and screams while he was sitting._

_"There is no doubt I tighten up on that leash when we have no choice but to pass a dog in close quarters. He is 90#s now and I know he will bite the other dog. I know that makes the problem worse, but when he was 16 wks, he bit a Bernese Mountain Dog, twice. He was on a loose lead, the other dog was off leash. This makes me think it probably is fear. Loose dogs are a pain - and a bad experience sticks in the brain. May explain why he ok with smaller dogs. Perhaps you could try what we did with Jake. Start at safe distance from other dogs, then allow Tybor to walk you where he wants to go. See if he avoids dogs on his own accord or pulls to get to them. _

_The Bernese Mountain Dog was friendly and only walked away when bitten, both times. Tybpr probably was fearful at that time, but I don't think he was traumatized._

_If given a choice, he goes for the dogs."_


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Hi Falkosmom

If you want to puchase a Dogmatic you can get one online at

Dogmatic Headcollar



> I liked teaching him using treats, but found his obedience sporadic and unreliable. I switched to good old fashioned sit and push his butt down, then praise. Did that about five times while walking him off leash after giving some recalls. We has to pass a dog on the trail, no way out of it. I told him to sit, and for the first time ever with an approaching dog, he sat. And, even better, he stayed sitting as the dog passed about nine feet away from us. I thought it was interesting though as his normal roars and snarls that accompany his usual lunging turned into shrieks and screams while he was sitting.


He did really well to stay sitting as the dog passed. Well done. Did you turn him so his back was to the other dog - as that's a good calming signal. 


Have you tried clicker training. It's very accurate and positve. These two sites are really good. I really think you need to concentrate on getting his basic training rock solid, especially sit, watch me, and leave it. 

Training Positive ? Complete Dog Training Tutorials

kikopup - YouTube


Apologies if you've already said, but how is Tybor with other dogs if he is off leash? Apart from Falko does he, or has he in the past had contact off leash?

Sue


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## lexachick27 (Jan 18, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> Well, there's some surefire ways to get them to like and look forward to meeting other dogs!
> 
> You do realize that you're teaching the dogs in question nothing but to dread meeting other dogs?
> 
> It starts with the barrier (frustration) - and progresses to "every time I see another dog, mom goes nuts, all nervous and jerking on the leash, hurting my neck/squirting me in the face"?



There is a lot of bad association with e collars and prong collars, but I have tried everything, and with a dog that big it's the only thing we've found that works. Unless you have personally tried using these tools the *correct* way, it is not fair to judge. 

With the prong, I never even have to correct him with it. Odin doesn't like how it feels when he pulls, so he doesn't pull. The only time he attempts to pull with or without a prong is around other dogs, as he is very good on a loose leash. When a dog does come, it's almost impossible for me to stop him on my own which is very dangerous... the prong gives me control in those situations and I have been taught how to wean him off it when he is ready.

As for the e collar, it has 127 settings and my 11 month old 103 pound German Shepherd works on a 12. I can't even feel the stimulation on my hands until it is at 14, and at 14 it feels like static. I've felt it all the way up to a 46 and it doesn't hurt at all. I've never used it on Odin above a 30 to this point, and above a 12 only when he's in "red zone". I use it in a similar way a gentle leader is used... very proactive. 

He sees a dog and gets treats... only if he starts to look too interested (raise his hackles or stiffen up), I say "come" and take a step back, and when he gives me his full attention he gets a treat. If he does not come, I stimulate him at the lowest possible setting, and when he gives me his attention I release it and he gets a treat. It's the same method as a gentle leader, which I have tried without success. My Odin did NOT respond well with a gentle leader... it did way more damage than good. He pulled so hard it had a very real possibility of hurting his neck... and it rubbed the hair off his nose. I had a trainer fit it to him, and a vet check it so I know it was sized correctly. He just wasn't food driven enough for me to hold his attention that way with treats. We used real chicken, steak, and hot dogs... so they weren't bad tasting treats!

Also we tried desensitizing him with treats from a distance before any tool, and he could care less about them when he saw another dog. I could not avoid the fixation without something to get his attention like the stimulation of the e collar. Which again is nowhere near painful as I've tried it on myself. People ask how it gets the dogs' attention without pain and to be honest I don't know... it is kind of like a tap on the shoulder I guess... all I know is I have personally felt it and it does not hurt, yet it seems to be working! 

He has progressed to being able to walk by dogs in a yard barking and running at him without responding... but we have not been able to successfully pass by other dogs head on yet, except at our training classes. I have hope that we will get there soon!


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## maureen_mickel (Jul 17, 2011)

Hi all! I know this thread is quite old! but i just wanted to get and update since i was too busy with her to reply! 

Celia just turned a year and her dog aggression has slightly dwindled. I noticed this a couple days ago when she actually played with a jack russell without constantly barking and snarling (though her fur was standing at first), and today she went up to some papillons (is that how you spell it?!) with no problem, but she did bark go crazy at a lost westie (dont worry! i found his owner) who she eventually warmed up to and became curious to. She is starting to listen to me around them when i tell her a cue so things have gotten better! Were gonna try to get her over to my friends house and play her her longhair shep sammy who is 18 months old. So things have gotten much better, though she doesnt like "hyper" dog xD (btw TheVintageAngel you live pretty close to me! Im out in perrysburg xD)

Edit:
I didnt even use any prongs, ecollars, or slips. Just a front hook harness and some turkey x3 but we still have alot to wwork on! On want to get her canine good citizen by the time she is 3 so she can be a therepy dog or i might just go for search and rescue, but all we have to work on is the dog park then she should ace it!


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Hi Maureen

I'd been wondered what had happened to you, and how you were getting on.

I'm am so happy that things are going well for you and Celia. Are you doing it on your own or with a trainer? 
________
Sue


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## maureen_mickel (Jul 17, 2011)

jakes mom said:


> Hi Maureen
> 
> I'd been wondered what had happened to you, and how you were getting on.
> 
> ...


Ya i disappeared for while, ive been working with her so much! XD
No, ive been doing this myself very carefully and using positive reinforcment. Its a huge step now that she is able to go up to a dog without constant barking and running after them, she will calmly go up to them and sniff and becurious ather than aggressive.we have accomplished alot even with this one step! She has gotten better with "fence dogs" and barks at them less, but she still will once in awhile. But things have deff improved and were still working on this togather!


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

I've put off responding to your post, because it's a touchy subject on this forum. But I've decided I should respond, as I'm sure you want to do the best for your dog. 

In your dogs interest - you really do need to get a new trainer. This is not the way to handle a young dog who is fear reactive. You may think it's solving the problem, but infact your trainer is storing up problems for you and your poor dog. 

Please get yourself a new trainer who is experienced with fear reactive dogs, and who preferably has calm adult dogs to work with. I would look for one who uses BAT (Behaviour Adjustment Training). See Link below to help locate a trainer in your area or to see/hire videos. 

Behavior Adjustment Training (BAT) | Official site for BAT: dog-friendly training for reactivity (aggression, fear, frustration) by Grisha Stewart, MA

When your dog growls, snarls and lunges at other dogs he is trying to drive them away because he is scared of them. It's called flight or fight. If your dog was off leash the chances are he would run away - but that choice has been taken away from him - he has no choice, as he sees it, other than fight. But the vast majority of dogs don't want to fight - it's a very dangerous business - so they growl, snarl, lunge etc to hopefully drive the other dog away.

Fearful dogs need to be desensitized to other dogs so they no longer feel the need to react aggressively.



lexachick27 said:


> There is a lot of bad association with e collars and prong collars, but I have tried everything, and with a dog that big it's the only thing we've found that works. Unless you have personally tried using these tools the *correct* way, it is not fair to judge.


With respect you haven't tried everything. You just think you have. Loads of people know how to use these tools correctly, and also know they are the wrong tools to use on fear reactive dogs.



> With the prong, I never even have to correct him with it. Odin doesn't like how it feels when he pulls, so he doesn't pull. The only time he attempts to pull with or without a prong is around other dogs, as he is very good on a loose leash. When a dog does come, it's almost impossible for me to stop him on my own which is very dangerous... the prong gives me control in those situations and I have been taught how to wean him off it when he is ready.


It is easy to teach a dog to walk on a loose leash without the need for a prong collar or head collar. All you need to be is consistant. (if want to know how - please ask). 

So let me get this right - you use the prong collar *correctly* yet your dog still reacts. So using the the prong collar obviously hasn't taught Odin anything - otherwise you wouldn't need the shock collar. 

BTW I understand perfectly how hard it is to hold onto an aggressive, reactive, full grown adult dog, who weighs almost as much as me. After trying other tools I found a harness or a harness and a halter combination worked best. 



> As for the e collar, it has 127 settings and my 11 month old 103 pound German Shepherd works on a 12. I can't even feel the stimulation on my hands until it is at 14, and at 14 it feels like static. I've felt it all the way up to a 46 and it doesn't hurt at all. I've never used it on Odin above a 30 to this point, and above a 12 only when he's in "red zone". I use it in a similar way a gentle leader is used... very proactive.


I'd like you to think about what you're saying. You've felt it all the way up to 46 and it doesn't hurt at all. Yet your dog works at 12. How much more sensitive must your dog be compared to you? That just proves that dogs are obviously much more sensitive to the shocks than humans. 

You should not use the shock collar at all when he is in the red zone. He will associate any pain or fear he feels with the dog he is looking at - hardly the way to get him to like or tolerate other dogs. Your dog may well become aggressive if the shock collar isn't on. 

You've never used it above 30 at this point - how high will you be willing to go if he still behaves reactively. As a matter of interest why did you only go to level 46 on yourself? Why not level 127?



> He sees a dog and gets treats... only if he starts to look too interested (raise his hackles or stiffen up), I say "come" and take a step back, and when he gives me his full attention he gets a treat. If he does not come, I stimulate him at the lowest possible setting, and when he gives me his attention I release it and he gets a treat.


He reason he responds to the shock collar is because he is more frightened of the shock than the other dog. Do you really want to do that to your dog ? He may no longer show his fear of dogs - but it's still there. He will do whatever it takes to escape the pain and fear he feels. If it stops when he looks at you - he will look at you.



> It's the same method as a gentle leader, which I have tried without success. My Odin did NOT respond well with a gentle leader... it did way more damage than good. He pulled so hard it had a very real possibility of hurting his neck... and it rubbed the hair off his nose. I had a trainer fit it to him, and a vet check it so I know it was sized correctly.


I admit I didn't like the Gentle Leader and had the same problem with it. There are far better halters on the market - but they should be used with a harness on a reactive dog. The halter takes the strain first and the head collar controls the head slightly after. You probably don't even need a head collar at all though, unless there's a danger he'll bite - the new harnesses are really good used alone. 



> He just wasn't food driven enough for me to hold his attention that way with treats. We used real chicken, steak, and hot dogs... so they weren't bad tasting treats!
> 
> Also we tried desensitizing him with treats from a distance before any tool, and he could care less about them when he saw another dog.


Your dog may respond better to a toy, a tug or just praise, or being moved further away from the other dog. If your dog still reacted it was because you were too close - you needed to be further away. As long as he wasn't reacting he didn't need treats - just the opportunity to get used to other dogs at a safe distance. The less you push for results - the quicker you will get results, because dogs learns themselves that other dogs are ok and the owner will look out for them, and not put them into situations they can't cope with. 



> I could not avoid the fixation without something to get his attention like the stimulation of the e collar. Which again is nowhere near painful as I've tried it on myself. People ask how it gets the dogs' attention without pain and to be honest I don't know... it is kind of like a tap on the shoulder I guess... all I know is I have personally felt it and it does not hurt, yet it seems to be working!


That's a good analogy - a tap on the shoulder. 

Imagine you're walking down the road and someone taps you on the shoulder - you turn around - but there's no-one there - you try and convince yourself you imagined it - but then someone taps you on the shoulder again, this time harder - you turn around again - but there's still no-one there. It keeps happening - still no-one there. How do you think you would feel ? 

That's how it feels for Odin - he has no concept or understanding of electricity and remote controls. He just knows what he sees and feels. That's how shock collars work. Painful - maybe. Terrifying - definately. 

You're dog is being controlled though fear - he isn't learning anything. He needs his confidence building, and you need to be a confident leader and handle things for him. He will then feel more confident around other dogs.



> He has progressed to being able to walk by dogs in a yard barking and running at him without responding... but we have not been able to successfully pass by other dogs head on yet, except at our training classes. I have hope that we will get there soon!


Unleashed dogs don't tend to approach each other head on - they approach in an arc. Humans force dogs to behave in a way that's unnatural to them. 

How do you think Odin will react to other dogs when you stop using the shock collar and the prong collar - or will you end up using them forever ?

Some things to think about.
_________
Sue


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