# Will neutering help with aggression??



## dakotaandhearts

Hi I have a one year old male shepherd, as a pup he was sweet and friendly so I never had him neutered. Recently as he has matured and grown he has become severely aggressive with people and other dogs. He acts as if he wants to sniff but then tries to bite. I don’t know what to do and its breaking my heart I can’t take him anywhere because of it. He will not even let the vet touch him. He needs tranquilizers for vet visits. I'm scared the neutering will be extremely dramatic for him so if it will not help with the aggression I don’t want to do it. Can someone please give me some advice??


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## GSDBESTK9

The neutering has NOTHING to do with it and won't change anything now. I have an almost 2 year old intact male who loves people and other dogs.

It could be lack of socialization as a pup, temperament/nerves (genetics), or other things.

My best advise to you is to take him to a professional trainer, and I don't mean a Petsmart trainer!


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## CeCe

He should be neutered.


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## GSDBESTK9

CeCe said:


> He should be neutered.


Although I agree, he should be neutered at some point.


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## Emoore

The neuter will not be extremely drastic one way or the other. Surgery won't fix a training/genetics issue.


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## dakotaandhearts

I have had him since 6 weeks old, been going to the dog park since 3 months old. He has only recently started this aggressive behavior. I am afraid he will hurt someone but I do not want to isolate him either.


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## CeCe

You definitely need a trainer for him. I believe that dogs with temperament problems should be altered. I waited until my normal bitch was 2 before I spayed her but my low threshold bitch was spayed when she was 8 months old.


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## msvette2u

Emoore said:


> The neuter will not be extremely drastic one way or the other. Surgery won't fix a training/genetics issue.


"dramatic" I think she meant "traumatic".
I agree that neuter won't fix this issue, it appears to be a training and/or behavioral (even genetics) problem.
But I do agree that it's a good plan to get the testosterone out of the way and see what you have after that, to work with.
It certainly cannot hurt him at this age, to neuter, and in fact may help. If you are worried about him being sore after, you can get pain meds to help.

But above all, put this dog on some routine and work with him. 
I like "MIND GAMES" but do not start them without proper precautions, and also if you think you yourself may be injured by practicing them.

Information at the link! Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong


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## Freestep

The dog should definitely be neutered. It may help with the aggression or it may not; it depends on what is causing the aggression. My friend had an aggressive GSD, he had been extensively socialized and was friendly and confident as a pup, so it wasn't a fear issue. He was just a hot-headed, macho, dominant brat whose owner had been too lenient with early signs of aggression (and in fact encouraged it).

He was MUCH more managable after being neutered. It didn't help his dog-aggression much, but he was a lot more controllable and predictable, and didn't fly off the handle like he used to. I think neutering can take the edge off an aggressive dog and make him more amenable to training, but it isn't a magic bullet. You still need to see a good trainer or behaviorist to address the aggression issues.

If the aggression comes from fear or insecurity, neutering probably won't help, but such a dog should still be neutered.

The surgery should not be terribly traumatic for a young, healthy dog. It is a fairly simple procedure, much less invasive than a spay, and most dogs bounce right back after a couple of days. Remember that it takes around 6 weeks for the hormones to totally leave his system, so any behavioral effects won't be noticed right away.


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## vom Eisenherz

Neutering will not change his temperament and if you can't control him as an intact dog, please don't assume you will be able to if he's neutered. Try training before removing his entire reproductive system and all the hormones that nature gave him. 

The chances that neutering is going to make enough of a difference that you're not worried are so slim I don't think it's worth it. 1 year is too young to neuter anyhow, so you have another year or so to work on training before you decide.


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## bunchoberrys

Freestep said:


> The dog should definitely be neutered. It may help with the aggression or it may not; it depends on what is causing the aggression. My friend had an aggressive GSD, he had been extensively socialized and was friendly and confident as a pup, so it wasn't a fear issue. He was just a hot-headed, macho, dominant brat whose owner had been too lenient with early signs of aggression (and in fact encouraged it).
> 
> He was MUCH more managable after being neutered. It didn't help his dog-aggression much, but he was a lot more controllable and predictable, and didn't fly off the handle like he used to. I think neutering can take the edge off an aggressive dog and make him more amenable to training, but it isn't a magic bullet. You still need to see a good trainer or behaviorist to address the aggression issues.
> 
> If the aggression comes from fear or insecurity, neutering probably won't help, but such a dog should still be neutered.
> 
> The surgery should not be terribly traumatic for a young, healthy dog. It is a fairly simple procedure, much less invasive than a spay, and most dogs bounce right back after a couple of days. Remember that it takes around 6 weeks for the hormones to totally leave his system, so any behavioral effects won't be noticed right away.


 
Well Said !:thumbup:


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## Twyla

Altering a dog isn't always the best first tool to reach for in aggression cases, it may or may not help and in some cases it may increase the aggression.

Locate a good behaviorist to work with and determine what you are dealing with, then you will better know how to proceed. Also, even with the difficulty of him visiting the vet, has he had a good check up to make sure it isn't something physical going on?

Meanwhile, the Mind Games mentioned earlier, practice NILIF and protect your dog from himself by management.


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## sparra

vom Eisenherz said:


> Try training before removing his entire reproductive system and all the hormones that nature gave him.


Now THAT'S "dramatic".......


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## martemchik

It's really shocking that its both dogs and humans. If it was just dogs, and especially male intact dogs, I would say that if you neuter you will most likely get rid of that aggression. But the fact that he's aggressive towards humans also is what baffles me. DA and HA are not the same thing, and it is a clear sign of poor temperament/socialization. For some reason he now fears everything, or feels the need to take control of every situation because he believes that you aren't up to the task. I don't know enough to say whether or not you should neuter, but I have heard from many people that temperament doesn't change at all with neutering. I would try to find a trainer that can deal with this issue, or maybe bring to light what started all of this, its really hard to believe your dog just woke up one day and decided he was going to act this way.


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## Draugr

It sounds to me more like a case of bad nerves rather than true aggression. He's reacting out of fear. Get him to a dog trainer. It worked wonders for me and my dog. You can still have him neutered if you want to but I suspect it is mostly irrelevant to what is going on here.


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## msvette2u

Nobody has said "neuter only", we've all said neuter but also get him to training. This dog will require a multipronged approach, one in which neuter and it's benefits cannot be ignored, but which will also require the OP to step up her leadership skills and also a solid trainer on board. 
The dog, at one year, is in the throes of a rush of testosterone and thinks he's Mr. Big Stuff. He's also probably gotten some nice responses to his menacing, and that's further created his issues, because any dog who snaps and makes people back off, that is reinforcing his behavior. 
Get the hormones (yes God gave them to him but that's not necessarily a positive thing in all cases) out of the way and I'm betting you're going to see some improvement. It can hardly get worse.


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## Draugr

On the contrary quite a few people mentioned neuter him and nothing else =/.

It could very well help I suppose but I don't think it's the primary issue where fear-based aggression is coming into play. I would recommend it if appropriate if more direct attempts do not seem to be impacting the issue but not as a first option.

ETA: Er, nevermind, one person did. I should really read all of a two-page thread before replying =/. lol


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## msvette2u

Oh. Well I didn't. I agree training will help above all, but neutering will certainly make a positive difference, mainly because while the dog has shown fearfulness, he's also taken matters into his own paws and made his own solution. 
I've seen this type behavior in (most recently) an intact Great Dane of about the same age.
He was fearful but had learned that snapping and a huge show of aggression would make people back off (which was his goal - get the scary things and people away from me!) but what happened is I had to get out my rabies pole/catch pole to deal with him. Once the pole was on his neck and I could control him, he calmed down and showed fear/avoidance.
I haven't seen females act this way, so - and this is my opinion of course, but based on a few past experiences, this dog and others that is, testosterone hitting at puberty makes them slightly more brave, or willing to get on that limb and actually nip/bite/show a big show of aggression.
I'm willing also to bet that if I had to handle the OPs dog as described above, or anyone for that matter, that he'd change his tune in a hurry and you'd see the fear more plainly. 

Not that we want to make him fearful, that's the issue they'll need to address through training. The thing is, he's fearful already and this is his response to it (brought on, if you will, by adolescence/sexual maturity).


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## martemchik

I think the people that posted "just neuter" answered in a way that if the OP has two choices, the better one would be to neuter than to just leave it be (assuming no other training would be involved). I'm kind of in the same boat, but don't like to tell people straight out what they should do with their animals. If I were in the OP's shoes, I would be getting this dog neutered ASAP and then getting into classes.


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## BowWowMeow

Have you had his thyroid checked? Is he in any pain? Dogs don't normally suddenly become aggressive.


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## msvette2u

This is a 1yr. old dog, just coming into his own. I would say it's the optimal time for this type "aggression" to set in.
Remember aggression isn't "just" aggression, ever. There is a cause, but this pup's is probably partly due to fear (from the OPs post) and partly due to sexual maturity, again, from the OPs post.


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## Freestep

msvette2u said:


> testosterone hitting at puberty makes them slightly more brave, or willing to get on that limb and actually nip/bite/show a big show of aggression.


I agree. Testosterone is a "fight" drug. When confronted with a threat (real or imagined), the fight-or-flight response may well be tipped into "fight" rather than "flight" when lots of testosterone is present. That is why people who do SchH/guard work/pp don't neuter--they want that natural aggression that testosterone enhances. If they are the same people who are saying that neutering won't make a dog less aggressive... 

Hormones affect behavior. Sometimes hugely. But adding or removing a hormone won't make much difference if the behavior is not addressed with training.

To the OP: This board tends to be fairly anti-neuter, so take that into consideration when reading the replies. You shouldn't base decisions on what one message board tells you, you should talk to your vet and trainer about it as well.


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## msvette2u

I don't know as it's anti-neuter as a whole, or just a few very loud folks? 

My feelings are, "it can't hurt, just might help, plus there's the added benefit of removing the pet from the gene pool"


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## chelle

msvette2u said:


> I don't know as it's anti-neuter as a whole, or just a few very loud folks?
> 
> My feelings are, "it can't hurt, just might help, plus there's the added benefit of removing the pet from the gene pool"


I would have to agree that the board, generally speaking, is more so anti-neuter. At the same time, though, most posters take the time to explain why they feel that way.

I will say this board is the complete reason I have not have Bailey neutered.

I still might not make 2 years, but other than sniffing girls a bit too much, and peeing all over to mark when out and about, I'm not finding any negatives to not neutering yet. (oops, must add, some males, especially intact, are showing increasing aggression towards him.)

His brother was neutered last weekend, tho. I didn't question that for a moment.

I like your outlook on it - probably can't hurt, might help.

Very personal decision and one not to make lightly, or to make due to feeling pressure. All you can do is weigh the pros and cons.


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## chelle

dakotaandhearts said:


> Hi I have a one year old male shepherd, as a pup he was sweet and friendly so I never had him neutered. Recently as he has matured and grown he has become severely aggressive with people and other dogs. He acts as if he wants to sniff but then tries to bite. I don’t know what to do and its breaking my heart I can’t take him anywhere because of it. He will not even let the vet touch him. He needs tranquilizers for vet visits. I'm scared the neutering will be extremely dramatic for him so if it will not help with the aggression I don’t want to do it. Can someone please give me some advice??


I'd like to ask, though -- were there warning signs? Seems odd this behavior began overnight? Was the socialization continued as he got older? Just seems odd that one day he is sweet and friendly, and the next, an aggressive boy that must be kept away from everyone? Just wondering.


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## dakotaandhearts

Thanks everyone for all your responses. Yes there were some warning signs and I made excuses for him (he thinks he's protecting me, or he must have smelled something he didn't like on that person or it's just toy aggression). I realize now I was wrong to ignore it but it happened randomly. Now it has gotten to a point where he snaps at other dogs at the dog park when they come near him and when we walk he acts like he wants to be friendly with people but then snaps at them as well. He has not had a physical exam since he was just a pup because he will not let anyone near him. Even under tranquilizers he's very difficult to control even for the vet technicians.


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## Freestep

For one thing, I'd stop taking him to the dog park if you haven't already.

He acts friendly when he approaches people, then snaps? Sounds like he's trying to intimidate people. Either because he's insecure, or because he's being a macho spithead. Some dogs like to intimidate people just to see who they can scare and what they can get away with; it's like sport. if it's combined with dominant posturing, he's being a brat and you need to correct that behavior NOW. Please consult a trainer or behaviorist for help, because we can't diagnose or give training advice for this over the internet, it could be dangerous to do so. A trainer will be able to see the behavior and hopefully determine where it is coming from, and help you address it in an appropriate way. 

If this were my dog I'd have him neutered yesterday.


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## msvette2u

Freestep said:


> For one thing, I'd stop taking him to the dog park if you haven't already.
> 
> He acts friendly when he approaches people, then snaps? Sounds like he's trying to intimidate people. Either because he's insecure, or because he's being a macho spithead. *Some dogs like to intimidate people just to see who they can scare and what they can get away with; it's like sport. * if it's combined with dominant posturing, he's being a brat and you need to correct that behavior NOW. Please consult a trainer or behaviorist for help, because we can't diagnose or give training advice for this over the internet, it could be dangerous to do so. A trainer will be able to see the behavior and hopefully determine where it is coming from, and help you address it in an appropriate way.
> 
> If this were my dog I'd have him neutered yesterday.





> Now it has gotten to a point where he snaps at other dogs at the dog park when they come near him and when we walk he acts like he wants to be friendly with people but then snaps at them as well


He's like a kid w/a new license. 

I agree. Schedule the neuter. Ask for the tranquilizers, administer them at home, get him muzzled and in the car. If you don't have a muzzle, borrow the one his size from the vet.

They can give him something more heavy duty once you arrive at the vet, while he's still in the car.
Be sure to not feed him or let him have water at least 8 hrs. prior to the fun beginning.

Chelle, there are plenty of us who'd neuter sooner than later and recommend it. It's just that the ones who recommend leaving intact are more vehement about it and louder


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## benbennett

*Take the CBARQ*

C-BARQ: Canine Behavioral Assessment & Research Questionnaire 

First try to figure out what kind of aggression first. 

Secondly asking whether to be neutered is politically loaded question. 

The wikipedia page on nuetering is pretty much NPOV view. EVERYTHING MUST BE SUPPORTED BY SCIENCE NOT PERSONAL OPINIONS. 

Oh yeah there is no scientific evidence to support thyroid disorders and aggression. There is one vet on the web that well is full of @!#$ and is hasn't spent the time nor money to do a real scientific study. Oh and most vets will incorrectly say there is thyroid and aggression relation, though the studies from university of Michigan say they could not find any relation between thyroid dysfunction and aggression. 

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled."

Richard Feynman( from his final sentence in the Challenger disaster probe)


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## hhn204

i went to this forum tonight to ask about neutering my dog. he had a close call today...my dog put a hole in my neighbor's sleeve. people say you have to socialize the dog a lot when it is a pup which i did. i took my dog everywhere i go when he was a pup. when i walk him, anybody who wanted to pet i would encourage it, especially kids. since he turned 1 year old (he is 1.5 yr old now), he started to be more harder to control. now i cant trust him around anyone. with that close call today, i am thinking about neutering him to reduce that aggression. from the online searches i have done, it seems like the probability of solving the aggression issue with neutering is low. 

i think i am going to take him to a trainer before attempting to neuter him. it is going to be expensive but i guess that is better then having an another close call. 

let me know what you decide and how it turns out for you

now i need to go and find an expensive trainer


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## msvette2u

It won't solve it, but can make him easier to work with.
If I was a trainer I would recommend altering your dog, scheduled to coincide with training.


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## BowWowMeow

I am pro-neuter but if this dog is truly "severely aggressive" to both humans and dogs then there is something really wrong here. I have owned and fostered dogs that were fear aggressive to people or dogs but never both. 

Before I scheduled a neuter (and, again, I am pro-neutering and think you should neuter him) I would schedule an appointment with a really good certified animal behaviorist to figure out what is going on with your dog and how to fix it. This is far beyond message-board help. 

And, if you haven't done this already, you need to condition your dog to a wire-basket muzzle and keep it on him at all times.

Honestly, I'd be taking him to one of these folks: http://www.animalbehavior.org/ABSAppliedBehavior/caab-directory


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## msvette2u

Well that can never hurt, but I don't take it as seriously as all that. He isn't aggressive as much as testing the waters, seeing what he can get away with.
By no means do I mean keep exposing him to situations where he can do this. No, keep him away from them in fact. He's proven he will nip (has he even made contact, or just "attempts to?) One thing that's happening too, is the tension from the owner is traveling down the leash and the dog is probably interpreting it as "my owner's afraid, something BAD is going to happen" and trying to take control of the situation. 

But yeah...whip off the 'nads and train, train, train, get him back under control, a trainer will help.
PS. Remember he's just one year of age, barely out of puppyhood.


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## benbennett

*1 year old is second fear stage*

Take the behaviour assessment . It is about 100 or so questions. C-BARQ: Canine Behavioral Assessment & Research Questionnaire

Also he is in his second fear stage at 1 year old for larger breeds ie GSD it can last up to 16 months. 

I wouldn't flood him . Slowly progress, but try to figure out what is going on in his head, the CBARQ will help a trainer also. 


The CBARQ with compare him to all breeds and his breed and doesn't does account for age. 

There are more than 650 GSD in there database thus far that he will be compared too.


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## gsdraven

hhn204 said:


> i think i am going to take him to a trainer before attempting to neuter him. it is going to be expensive but i guess that is better then having an another close call.
> 
> let me know what you decide and how it turns out for you
> 
> now i need to go and find an expensive trainer


It doesn't have to be expensive. Please make sure you do your homework on the trainer before just forking over money. Ask for testimonials etc. They may recommned neutering as part of the rehab plan, as well as evaluating nutrition and exercise.


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## msvette2u

benbennett said:


> *Also he is in his second fear stage at 1 year old for larger breeds ie GSD it can last up to 16 months. *


You say that like it's a given. I've never had a dog (large or small) have a "fear stage" at 1yr.-16 mos.


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## msvette2u

gsdraven said:


> It doesn't have to be expensive. Please make sure you do your homework on the trainer before just forking over money. Ask for testimonials etc. They may recommned neutering as part of the rehab plan, as well as evaluating nutrition and exercise.


:thumbup: expensive doesn't mean good.
There's some wanna-be trainers in our area who know nothing and aren't even accredited, in fact one recommends squirting the dog w/a squirt bottle for fear of the husband in the home. We got a call after these folks had forked over a bunch of money to this "trainer", and the people wanted to give us the dog. 
The dog was terrified of hubby and barking at the guy when he'd walk in the door, and this "trainer" suggested squirting it when it would bark.
Yes, they paid good money for that advice


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## hhn204

gsdraven,

i assume you live in montgomery county, pa. do you know a trainer you could recommend? i am doing online research on the only place that only does gsd training is : www.BojovnikaK9.com
www.warriork9.com but it is about 1.5 hr drive to kutztown.


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## Chance&Reno

msvette2u said:


> :thumbup: expensive doesn't mean good.
> There's some wanna-be trainers in our area who know nothing and aren't even accredited, in fact one recommends squirting the dog w/a squirt bottle for fear of the husband in the home. We got a call after these folks had forked over a bunch of money to this "trainer", and the people wanted to give us the dog.
> *The dog was terrified of hubby and barking at the guy when he'd walk in the door, and this "trainer" suggested squirting it when it would bark.*
> *Yes, they paid good money for that advice*


Even schooled Vet Behaviorists suggest this. I've had experience with dogs who have gone to schools like Tufts to see a behaviorist. Their advice was to tell the owner to put a GL on the dog and if the dog barked, lift it off the ground and shake it. No matter the breed of dog, even ones who are notorious for having weak backs, like Daschunds and Corgis. So even if you spend $80,000 on school to be a licensed behaviorist, sometimes you can still be a moron..


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## Freestep

hhn204 said:


> now i need to go and find an expensive trainer


A trainer is much less expensive than a lawsuit!


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## howlk9

I see a lot of people jumping to the neuter decision, however there are several recent studies that actually show an increase in aggression among altered dogs.
Here is just one:
http://www.vizslacanada.ca/SNBehaviorBoneDataSnapShot.pdf
Many skilled and experienced behaviourists also now recommend working on serious issues such as aggression BEFORE undergoing a neuter/spay. Even if you decide to go thrugh the surgery now, getting in touch with a good trainer is a must.


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## Falkosmom

Wow! Thanks for sharing that howlk9.


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## msvette2u

In my personal experience, I've never seen neuter make a dog _more_ aggressive.



> . The view of spaying and neutering as benign and perhaps
> even beneficial to dogs has been based on extremely limited scientific study of how gonadectomy
> affects dog behavior and physiology.


"extremely limited scientific study", what about millions of dogs neutered yearly, who don't become aggressive?

Speaking of studies, it was found that intact male dogs were doing the most biting and even killing (humans), wasn't it?
I would need to see an environment and genetics for the dogs in the study before chalking any aggression up to s/n solely.

It's like saying "dogs who are altered get more HD", when there's no study on the lineage with regards to HD.

Kind of like saying autism in kids is related to their vaccines, when the diagnosis merely coincides with the vaccination schedule.


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## gsdraven

msvette2u said:


> In my personal experience, I've never seen neuter make a dog _more_ aggressive.


I have. But, I think it's the exception not the rule.


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## Jax08

My trainer told me that spaying a female can make them more aggressive because their hormones are not balanced anymore. Anyone that knows someone that has had a total hysterectomy could probably relate to that. I would assume that could also happen with males.


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## msvette2u

I think with males it's the exception. 

With females, I could see it (estrogen is a calming hormone), but also all our girls (5) are spayed and the only one who is "aggressive" is only aggressive in certain circumstances.
In fact she ignores most everyone else (with 4 legs). 
So I'm not sure what they mean by "increased" aggression. She's actually our "neutral dog" tester when we have fosters.

She's a drama queen and all that entails but is not inherently aggressive. She's been spayed since her puppy teeth fell out and is now 10yrs. old.


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## msvette2u

gsdraven said:


> I have. But, I think it's the exception not the rule.


My question would always be, are we certain that neuter "made" him aggressive or did he just get that way as he matured?

I'd like to see how they designed the study and if the aggression could have merely coincided with the dog becoming mature, and also as mentioned, we'd need data about the parents and if the aggression was inherited rather than a by-product of altering.


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## msvette2u

Jax08 said:


> My trainer told me that spaying a female can make them more aggressive because their hormones are not balanced anymore. Anyone that knows someone that has had a total hysterectomy could probably relate to that. I would assume that could also happen with males.


Totally different hormones at play, though (estrogen/progesterone vs. testosterone).


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## Jax08

msvette2u said:


> Totally different hormones at play, though (estrogen/progesterone vs. testosterone).



ya think?

That doesn't mean that a hormonal IMBALANCE does not exist.


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## msvette2u

The point is....estrogen doesn't amp up dogs the way testosterone does.
And lack of testosterone, most basically, would have a calming effect, loss of estrogen/progesterone would have the opposite effect quite possibly.

And I will never be convinced that you can pinpoint neuter/spay as the sole cause of aggression.


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## Jax08

I never said it was a sole cause of aggression. I do believe a hormonal imbalance can make it worse. Nature gave us these hormones for a reason and they aren't solely for reproduction. As far as I know, there is not a single valid study out there on spay/neuter and aggression so this whole argument is based on opinions. I'll stick with mine until I read a peer reviewed study that says otherwise.


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## lrodptl

Contrary to popular belief, the study
found little evidence that castration was an effective treatment for aggressive behavior in
male dogs, and may exacerbate other behavioral problems.



http://www.acc-d.org/2006 Symposium Docs/Duffy2.pdf


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## Jax08

Thanks for that Irodptl. Good source!


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## msvette2u

Jax08 said:


> As far as I know, there is not a single valid study out there on spay/neuter and aggression so this whole argument is based on opinions. I'll stick with mine until I read a peer reviewed study that says otherwise.


Okay so it's my opinion that I've seen hundreds of dogs come through every year (our adoption rates run about 150 dogs per year) that s/n has not made aggressive.
And other owners can attest the same, I know.

I like the "studies" but that's all they are. 
Genetics, I'm sure, play a larger role as does environment.
If s/n was making all these pets aggressive, then someone would have taken note long ago and done something about it. 

Now, the only thing not addressed (in my post anyway) is an already aggressive dog, such as the OPs dog.
Let's just say she has him neutered and it doesn't help the aggression, can we then say the neuter _caused _the aggression?
This is my problem with "studies" such as this. They don't take into account that perhaps the animal would have been aggressive, s/n or not.

It has always been my belief that the neuter won't "make the aggression better" but it may indeed make the dog easier to work with and less distractable.
If you read back, not once did I say "yes, he'll be less aggressive once neutered", my stance is always "can't hurt, might help and will certainly remove him from the gene pool".

As for the dogs in the study - you cannot _without doubt_ say s/n alone made them aggressive, in fact environment and genetics would play a much larger role I am sure.


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## Jax08

Are you arguing just to argue? I don't think you read posts very carefully or you just like to argue. Did I say you had to adopt my opinion? Who said s/n was "making all these pets aggressive"? Where did I say that sn/ neuter along is making dogs aggressive without a doubt. I don't have a clue what has you so defensive and I guess...I just don't care.


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## msvette2u

Jax08 said:


> Are you arguing just to argue?



One could say the same about you.

As for this, I am done, I've given my opinion and despite a billion studies, that's all they are is studies, real life is often very different. 

To the OP, good luck whichever route you decide, make it in conjunction with your vet and trainer, and it'll the the right one for you and your dog


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## Jax08

msvette2u said:


> One could say the same about you.


I"m sure they could..I do have my days. But you are arguing with me over things that I have not said or even implied. I tend to ignore most of your posts unless you quote me so you'll have to excuse me if I don't have alot of desire to research what you say or address you. And...I have a job and break is over. Carry on....


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## Draugr

lrodptl said:


> Contrary to popular belief, the study
> found little evidence that castration was an effective treatment for aggressive behavior in
> male dogs, and may exacerbate other behavioral problems.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.acc-d.org/2006 Symposium Docs/Duffy2.pdf


Important to note that most of these (if not all?) are correlative stats. While I tend to fall more toward the "don't" than "do" side of the aisle we do ourselves no justice if we allow ourselves to infer too much.

There could be plenty of factors coming into play here - most notably, I'd wager that neutering is correlated with marginally higher levels of aggression because that group would include dogs that were neutered for fear aggression - a type of aggression typically not helped by neutering (although I'm not saying it can't be helped by that).

Golden rule of statistics - "correlation does not imply causation."


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## gsdraven

msvette2u said:


> My question would always be, are we certain that neuter "made" him aggressive or did he just get that way as he matured?


He was an adult male that had been a foster in my home for over a month before he was neutered. Two weeks after he was neutered, he was suddenly dog aggressive. And still is. This was 1.5 years ago.


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## ayoitzrimz

Draugr said:


> Important to note that most of these (if not all?) are correlative stats. While I tend to fall more toward the "don't" than "do" side of the aisle we do ourselves no justice if we allow ourselves to infer too much.
> 
> There could be plenty of factors coming into play here - most notably, I'd wager that neutering is correlated with marginally higher levels of aggression because that group would include dogs that were neutered for fear aggression - a type of aggression typically not helped by neutering (although I'm not saying it can't be helped by that).
> 
> * Golden rule of statistics - "correlation does not imply causation."*


That I like  that's something we all need to remind ourselves whenever a new study comes out on the benefits of xyz over abc


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## Draugr

ayoitzrimz said:


> That I like  that's something we all need to remind ourselves whenever a new study comes out on the benefits of xyz over abc


Well if causation is established, or even if Occam's Razor says the most likely culprit is that neutering/not neutering caused a certain thing, then sure, it's not unreasonable to make that leap.

But in many (if not most) cases, particularly in the realm of behavior and psychology, where things are not so concrete, it becomes very difficult to move beyond correlation.

So it is important to note that when a study says "neutered males may be more aggressive" - well, that's probably true, assuming we have a well-formed study. BUT..._why_ are they more aggressive? The jump most people will immediately make is that neutering causes aggression.

But, isn't it more likely that an evaluation of neutered dogs vs intact dogs will find neutered dogs more aggressive on the whole, because typically neutering is encouraged as part of a treatment for unwanted/unwarranted aggression? You're neutering them, you aren't performing brain surgery. It probably WILL affect the behavior but at the core, a dog just like any other creature is still a product of his genetics and environment.

Dogs without problem behaviors are more likely to be left intact, again, on the whole.

That would be my explanation as to why a study says neutered dogs are more aggressive. I find it very difficult to believe (excepting cases of pre-pubertal neutering, I can believe that messing with the hormones and the natural mental maturation process _could_ cause undesirable behaviors, including certain types of aggression - but that's just my unfounded opinion) that neutering a dog will CAUSE him to become aggressive.

I would definitely believe that neutering an already aggressive dog would still leave him with some level of aggression that is above that of a dog without aggression problems.

And, again, as a disclaimer, let me stress that I'm talking "in general." With over 75 million _owned_ dogs in this country, I'd find it to be sheer lunacy if there were no exceptions to that rule, particularly when we are talking about something as complex as behavior.

So any time one sees a study like this...it is important to be very careful not to leap to the conclusion that most closely matches your ideology. It's an impulsive instinct. Put on your skeptic hat and use your critical thinking skills to think what all the possible explanations might be for that _correlation_ to be found.


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## msvette2u

Draugr said:


> *And, again, as a disclaimer, let me stress that I'm talking "in general." With over 75 million owned dogs in this country, I'd find it to be sheer lunacy if there were no exceptions to that rule, particularly when we are talking about something as complex as behavior.*
> 
> So any time one sees a study like this...it is important to be very careful not to leap to the conclusion that most closely matches your ideology. It's an impulsive instinct. Put on your skeptic hat and use your critical thinking skills to think what all the possible explanations might be for that _correlation_ to be found.


:thumbup:
If neutering/spaying were so detrimental as to cause aggressive dogs every time, vets would have stopped doing it way back when.


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## msvette2u

gsdraven said:


> He was an adult male that had been a foster in my home for over a month before he was neutered. Two weeks after he was neutered, he was suddenly dog aggressive. And still is. This was 1.5 years ago.


I'm curious now, to all dogs or just certain ones?
I could actually possibly see how that could happen although not necessarily hormones doing the work. 
Also at around 2 weeks-1mo. an adult dog in rescue or in a new adoptive home may be starting to show his true colors, so are we able to say for certain the neuter caused it, or was he going to be that way anyway?
Do you know his history enough to know if he was dog-aggressive to other dogs prior to you taking him in?


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## Freestep

All I know is... I've never seen neutering make a dog MORE aggressive.

I've seen many dogs who became less aggressive after neutering.

I've seen many dogs who were aggressive before and after neutering.

This is merely anectodal, since I have not conducted a formal study, but I have seen thousands of dogs before and after neutering, some of which I've followed up on for years. I have never seen a dog become MORE aggressive after neutering, unless you count the behavioral issues that come on late in life (dementia, grumpiness, siezures). My feeling is that those dogs would still have the same late-life issues if they were left intact, but since most dogs I see do not grow old with their testicles still attached, I can't definitively say. I can say that I've come across some very nasty intact elderly dogs, as well as nasty neutered elderly dogs, but the ones that are intact have a bit more "oomph" to their nastiness.


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## msvette2u

Freestep said:


> All I know is... I've never seen neutering make a dog MORE aggressive.
> 
> I've seen many dogs who became less aggressive after neutering.
> 
> I've seen many dogs who were aggressive before and after neutering.
> 
> This is merely anectodal, since I have not conducted a formal study, but I have seen thousands of dogs before and after neutering, some of which I've followed up on for years. I have never seen a dog become MORE aggressive after neutering, unless you count the behavioral issues that come on late in life (dementia, grumpiness, siezures). My feeling is that those dogs would still have the same late-life issues if they were left intact, but since most dogs I see do not grow old with their testicles still attached, I can't definitively say. I can say that I've come across some very nasty intact elderly dogs, as well as nasty neutered elderly dogs, but the ones that are intact have a bit more "oomph" to their nastiness.


I believe this too. 
I took in a senior intact male GSD off death row, and boy-oh-boy. 
He was "growly" at the shelter, I'd been told, so when I met him, I took his pics, and was going to put a heavy duty collar on him. I decided against that - the collar we have you have to pull it tighter/almost too snug, then place the prong thing in the hole (leather collar, you know), and ended up sending him to a GSD rescue with an experienced foster home. 

It was a good thing I did - he showed no hesitation to be bitey, but he did find a great home after his way-late-in-life neuter. The same thing, the home was very experienced, but this dog had lived his whole life being a crotchety mess who probably didn't have much guidance in his life either.
He was the boss of himself and nobody else was going to take that position, when I met him!


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## lrodptl

msvette2u said:


> :thumbup:
> If neutering/spaying were so detrimental as to cause aggressive dogs every time, vets would have stopped doing it way back when.



And vets wouldn't push Science Diet either.


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## cliffson1

Folks, the issue isn't nuetering, the issue is aggression. I would take the dog to a very good behavoirist and get a hands on assessment of causation if its apparent. These internet psychologists cannot diagnose from behind a computer. Do the behavoirist and if that's not satisfactory do a medical workup. After that if you don't have causation(and you may!!!), then you can start considering some proactive stategies.JMO


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## Cheerful1

Joey's going to be neutered next week, due to an enlarged prostate.

I had two friends say, now he'll be more calm.

While it would be a nice bonus, I don't expect the neutering to have that kind of effect, and I wouldn't neuter just for that reason.


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## Draugr

I don't notice any difference calmness, but I notice a big difference in 'biddability' - how easily a dog "goes with the flow," so to speak.


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