# Schutzhund Clubs - Muskegon, MI?



## sanjo (Feb 22, 2017)

We're adding a new member to our family soon - and I want to make sure that we have all the tools needed to keep our GSD happy. 

I live in Muskegon and have seen another thread from back in 2011 on these forums about Muskegon clubs - but there was no info that was still relevant.

Thanks if you have any info on where to continue my search.

Vaughn


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

There are no clubs in Muskegon. I would get with Josh in Grand Rapids. He is nationally known and recently moved to the area. I believe he is getting an IPO club going, but for now may be doing private training. There are a few that train in your area, but personally I would go to Josh first rather than train with the locals. He can help put the right foundation on a puppy. Training - Rustic Retreat Lodge for Dogs, LLC

Have you already chosen a breeder?


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## sanjo (Feb 22, 2017)

onyx'girl said:


> There are no clubs in Muskegon. I would get with Josh in Grand Rapids. He is nationally known and recently moved to the area. I believe he is getting an IPO club going, but for now may be doing private training. There are a few that train in your area, but personally I would go to Josh first rather than train with the locals. He can help put the right foundation on a puppy.
> Have you already chosen a breeder?


Nothing set in stone for a breeder - thanks for the link to Rustic Retreat - I'll check them out for sure.

Bummer there's no clubs over here - but that's life 

Do you have any recommendations for breeders on the west side of the state?

Thanks again - vaughn.Save​


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I would look at breeders that are training and trialing their dogs in the sport if that is what your goals are. Or at least breeders that are breeding for versatility. If you are on fb, this local GSD pag e has people announcing litters often, though I won't vouch for them and probably would be careful when looking at what they are breeding.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/WestMichiganGSDowners/

If you are serious about getting into the sport, contact Wildhaus kennels ...they are planning a breeding due in April(if the breeding took) and I can say with confidence the goals for this breeding should have some excellent IPO prospects. Though they have a waiting list, they do want working homes for their pups and they don't do first come first serve, but the best match for the puppy and the owner. 
FullForce K9 in the Kalamazoo area has a litter now,but I think the pups may all be reserved, worth checking out in case there is an availability. FB page: https://www.facebook.com/FullForceK9-274144882629199/


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## sanjo (Feb 22, 2017)

onyx'girl said:


> I would look at breeders that are training and trialing their dogs in the sport if that is what your goals are. Or at least breeders that are breeding for versatility. If you are on fb, this local GSD pag e has people announcing litters often, though I won't vouch for them and probably would be careful when looking at what they are breeding.
> 
> 
> If you are serious about getting into the sport, contact wildhaus ...they are planning a breeding due in April(if the breeding took) and I can say with confidence the goals for this breeding should have some excellent IPO prospects. Though they have a waiting list, they do want working homes for their pups and they don't do first come first serve, but the best match for the puppy and the owner.
> FullForce K9 in the Kalamazoo area has a litter now,but I think the pups may all be reserved, worth checking out in case there is an availability.


Wildhaus looks promising but it's about a 3 hour drive. I'll have to d some reading on them to see if it doesnt ease my mind at all, but dropping a $200 non-refundable deposit on a pup that may or may not 'be the right one' is a little intimidating. You giving them some cred is great and exactly what I'm looking for though - so thank you 

They have some impressive paperwork for sure.

I'm just trying to gather as much info as I can about breeders in the area - I'm definitely not going to buy off hoobly or whatever since just anyone can be considered a 'breeder' these days. I want to know I'm getting what I pay for - since they will hopefully be a part of our family for a decade or more. More importantly I want to make sure I make a responsible decision.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

traveling three hours for a good breeder is nothing! I travel 2 hours each way every week to train. lol 
Since you have some time, maybe contact them and visit on a training day.
Visit Fullforce too, they train in their area often. Dogs bred from both kennels are training with the breeders so you can see first hand what they have produced. 

Like I posted earlier, the breeder that is actually working their dogs in the venue you are interested in is important. The pet breeders generally do not do much to prove what they are breeding is even breed-worthy. 
They can market very well, but the proof is in the pudding. 

Fullforce has another upcoming breeding that looks promising as well.

If you are interested in IPO or SDA, go and watch some training so you can learn more about the dogs. Josh would be a good one to get with now, even if you don't have a dog, you can learn so much just by observing, and he is less than an hour from your town.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

sanjo said:


> Wildhaus looks promising but it's about a 3 hour drive. I'll have to d some reading on them to see if it doesnt ease my mind at all, but dropping a $200 non-refundable deposit on a pup that may or may not 'be the right one' is a little intimidating. You giving them some cred is great and exactly what I'm looking for though - so thank you
> 
> They have some impressive paperwork for sure.
> 
> I'm just trying to gather as much info as I can about breeders in the area - I'm definitely not going to buy off hoobly or whatever since just anyone can be considered a 'breeder' these days. I want to know I'm getting what I pay for - since they will hopefully be a part of our family for a decade or more. More importantly I want to make sure I make a responsible decision.



I will second Wildhaus. Very knowledgeable and they stand behind their dogs. Deposits are normal. You have to be open and honest to get the best dog for you. You need to build a relationship with the breeder.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

There are two wildhaus dogs in my club. Really nice dogs. From what I have seen and the people I have personally spoken to. I would not hesitate to purchase a pup from them.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

You have two active threads on breeders and they are a bit confusing. Might help to clarify your expectations for the pup.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/687265-michigan-breeder-recommendations.html


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Nigel said:


> You have two active threads on breeders and they are a bit confusing. Might help to clarify your expectations for the pup.
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/687265-michigan-breeder-recommendations.html


Not the fault of Vaughn, I took the thread off the topic when I asked about the puppy he was getting. Starting a thread for breeders in the state was a good idea. And he started it after the post by cdwoodcox.


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## sanjo (Feb 22, 2017)

Thanks for all the replies all 

This was originally a 'are there any clubs in my area?' - to which the answered seemed to be no - and Onyx was helpful in pointing out expanding my breeder search - so I made a new thread specifically about the breeder.

There's plenty of reading for me to do before I pull the trigger on anything.

I just want to be responsible and support a local breeder that is working to further the line - VS make a quick buck - and there's more than a few of those 'breeders' out there.

Thanks again,
Vaughn


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

FWIW, the breeders I recommended are not in it for the money. 
They put quite a bit of time and money into their programs, choose stud dogs that are not 'convenient' to breed to, usually have to travel to different states to breed. The chosen dogs that are strong in work ethic and temperament, carefully chosen to complement their bitches. 
When you see a breeder that has both parents on site and continue to breed them several times, well, that IMO is a red flag. 

Not often do breeders have both parents on site. Though some may have stud dogs available, regardless. 

Now that Spring is in the air, hopefully you'll have some free weekends to visit clubs and breeders, so you can get a better feel for what is out there.
One of the breeders Josh is referring to, is the same that Lisa recommended in your other thread.


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## boeselager (Feb 26, 2008)

onyx'girl said:


> When you see a breeder that has both parents on site and continue to breed them several times, well, that IMO is a red flag.
> 
> Not often do breeders have both parents on site. Though some may have stud dogs available, regardless.



I have not been on here in a very long time but I guess I'm not understanding how having your own stud dog and repeating breeding's that have produced exceptional puppies each time, how is that a red flag? Please don't take this as starting an argument b/c it's not. Just trying to understand b/c in the 18 years of breeding I have done a lot of repeat breeding's with my own stud dog b/c the combination of the 2 have Always produced Amazing puppies. I guess I just don't see that being a red flag unless they are producing horrible puppies with nerve problems as well as health/temperament problems. That I can see being a red flag if someone keeps repeating that breeding with the same male/female. I was also in schutzhund for 12 years, been out of it for awhile (health reasons) but I am capable of picking out a puppy that would excel in that kind of sport as we do have puppies training in schutzhund, IPO, PPD, Nose work, service dog training, etc. Again, just trying to understand some of the comments that were made on here, not trying to bicker over it.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

boeselager said:


> I have not been on here in a very long time but I guess I'm not understanding how having your own stud dog and repeating breeding's that have produced exceptional puppies each time, how is that a red flag? Please don't take this as starting an argument b/c it's not. Just trying to understand b/c in the 18 years of breeding I have done a lot of repeat breeding's with my own stud dog b/c the combination of the 2 have Always produced Amazing puppies. I guess I just don't see that being a red flag unless they are producing horrible puppies with nerve problems as well as health/temperament problems. That I can see being a red flag if someone keeps repeating that breeding with the same male/female. I was also in schutzhund for 12 years, been out of it for awhile (health reasons) but I am capable of picking out a puppy that would excel in that kind of sport as we do have puppies training in schutzhund, IPO, PPD, Nose work, service dog training, etc. Again, just trying to understand some of the comments that were made on here, not trying to bicker over it.


 Breeding due to convenience and no real goals for what they are producing so use their pet male and female to produce litters is what tends to be happening from what I have observed on a WM GSD fb page. Most of the time they don't even understand pedigrees,or lines when putting dogs together to make puppies. 
Champion bloodlines, police K9, imports, and other buzzwords are marketing tools that buyers are impressed with. 

Do they work the dogs that they breed to prove their breeding goals are being achieved? Seldom. 
Most buyers that purchase from said breeders are not choosing a pup to do sport, service or use for work...they just want a furbaby and really aren't experienced in the breed or working a GSD. Not often are these dogs even able to do the work, they are too soft or not high enough in drive to train in sport. 
If someone really is particular on the pup they will be purchasing for a specific reason, they choose a breeder that has proven their program goals over and over, generally in the venue they are interested in(though versatility is the best, as this breed is supposed to be able to do work in many venues). This thread is in the IPO forum, thus the reason for my comments above. If someone wanted a pet, I'd probably say the same thing, because a pet should be just as willing and able to work, have solid nerves and still be purchased from a breeder that has a long term goal for their program, and not just putting their own 'pets' together to make litters.


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## boeselager (Feb 26, 2008)

Totally agree with what you just said but like in my situation I was in schutzhund for 12 years and have not done anything since b/c of my health issues, so b/c my dogs are not titled I don't feel that means that they are useless?? I personally don't think they are b/c as I stated I have puppies that are training in schutzhund, IPO, PPD, service dog, nose work, UKC/AKC venues etc, etc. I have a goal set for my breeding program and have been achieving my goals and know my pedigree's so I'm not just putting 2 dogs together to call it good. With that being said, I do know many breeders in Michigan and else where that do not know their pedigree's, etc and/or other breeders mentoring new breeders when the other breeders still do not have a clue what they are doing. I have had clients come to me for a puppy and when they tell me about their 1st GSD I ask what are the lines and 9 times out of 10 they say DDR, so I ask to see the pedigree and their dog is not DDR and has no DDR in the pedigree but their dog has Czech lines or WGWL or a combo of both and I let them know. For me personally I know my dogs, their pedigrees and know what they are capable of doing/producing and I'm very capable of picking out a puppy for a working home or for a family companion/guardian.


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## sanjo (Feb 22, 2017)

This thread has gotten sidetracked AF.

To anyone wondering about clubs - the short answer is... there are none on the west side of the state.

Gustavo Sanchez in Lansing with Capital Area Schz
Jeremy Kline in Kalamazoo with Fullforce K9 - 

and that's it over in west MI.


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## boeselager (Feb 26, 2008)

I Highly recommend Gustavo Sanchez


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

boeselager said:


> Totally agree with what you just said but like in my situation I was in schutzhund for 12 years and have not done anything since b/c of my health issues, so b/c my dogs are not titled I don't feel that means that they are useless?? I personally don't think they are b/c as I stated I have puppies that are training in schutzhund, IPO, PPD, service dog, nose work, UKC/AKC venues etc, etc. I have a goal set for my breeding program and have been achieving my goals and know my pedigree's so I'm not just putting 2 dogs together to call it good. With that being said, I do know many breeders in Michigan and else where that do not know their pedigree's, etc and/or other breeders mentoring new breeders when the other breeders still do not have a clue what they are doing.* I have had clients come to me for a puppy and when they tell me about their 1st GSD I ask what are the lines and 9 times out of 10 they say DDR, so I ask to see the pedigree and their dog is not DDR and has no DDR in the pedigree but their dog has Czech lines or WGWL or a combo of both and I let them know*. For me personally I know my dogs, their pedigrees and know what they are capable of doing/producing and I'm very capable of picking out a puppy for a working home or for a family companion/guardian.


I don't think I ever named you or your kennel in my posts on this thread. 
Because you are in the area somewhat, I'm sure you understand why I posted what I did. It has nothing to do with your breeding program.

There are no clubs, not many good breeders in the West side of the state. The ones doing the breeding are targeting the pet market and new to the breed buyers. If people would just do their research, as Sanjo did when he started this thread, then maybe they would not go to breeders that are not being truthful(or breeders that don't even know, just go with what they think will sell pups).
It is all about education, and puppy buyers need to be willing to do some homework and keep an open mind when it comes to deciphering a good breeder from one that has those market buzzwords.


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## boeselager (Feb 26, 2008)

I know that you did not mention my name or kennel but when you posted on the 1st page "QUOTE" "When you see a breeder that has both parents on site and continue to breed them several times, well, that IMO is a red flag. Not often do breeders have both parents on site. Though some may have stud dogs available, regardless" To me that gives anyone (people trying to learn, etc.) the perception that all breeders are like this and that's why I posted what I posted b/c I for one am not. It's fine with what you posted but you should probably have said that not all breeders are like that. I also agree that ANYONE looking for any kind of pet should do as much research as they can. Talk to the breeder, ask for references and see if you can even call some of the references. Ask to see OFA certifications, etc, etc and if they don't do any of that walk away. I LOVE it when people do their research b/c to me that means that they are going to be very invested in their new puppy/dog.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I still stand by my comments and it is great that you repeat your breedings, and are successful....but it is also nice to see how a bitch produces with other pedigree combinations, especially if/ when holding back pups with regards to foundation lines for the breeding program.

Observing what I have the local West Michigan GSD fb page, I am jaded with how easy it is for the pet owners to breed their male and female with no regards to keeping the breed where it should be. 
One person had two litters from a male that wasn't even 1.5 yrs old! The first litter was bred when he turned a yr old. 
She posted an ad to stud him out and after people questioned her about his health tests and titles, she deleted and moved somewhere else to stud him. 
This is just one example of what is out there on a daily basis. Sad that these breeders are not doing right by the breed.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

This thread has gotten way off topic. 

Closed.


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