# My dog bit me, need opinions.



## Bridget

For the past year or so, Heidi has showed that she does not like for us to put our faces close to her, such as hugging her. Unfortunately my daughter and I have a tendency to be hands on with the dogs, burying our faces in their fur, that sort of thing. The following is what occurred last night:

Heidi was laying on the couch. I was sitting on the floor below her. I was stroking her shoulder and head, just generally giving her affection. She suddenly lunged and bit my face in several places. It did draw blood and looks ugly, although it isn't serious. I ran to the bathroom to see how bad it was and my husband yelled at Heidi. Afterward Heidi did not seem particularly repentant, although she was back to her gentle self.

Here is my take on this: I was doing something that I know from previous experience makes Heidi uncomfortable, which isn't a good reason for her to bite, but was still foolish and dangerous on my part. I was sitting below her in a position that can hardly be called an "alpha position." I think this was an expression of dominance from Heidi and a reminder that I need to, once again, practice leadership skills with her. 

I would like your more experienced views on this. What is your take on what was going through Heidi's mind? Am I taking this too lightly? What should have been my reaction at the time this occurred?


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## Castlemaid

Vet. Very weird that she reacted this strongly without any warning. I'm thinking pain reaction.

I went and looked at some of your posts: Lump on the neck (did you go to the vet? Was was it?)

Dirty ears, you thought it was mites. (infection or mites, VERY painful. Did you take Heidi to the vet to have her ears checked out?)

8.5 years old, is having difficulty getting up on the bed. Arthritis? She may have stiffness, soreness around her neck area too. 

Plus, she doesn't like it when you pet her around the head area. 

Not dominance, I don't think (she is shy right? Afraid of new places? Not likely to act out to you, the leader/mom out of dominance considering her temperament. 

So I think, VET! big time!!! This does not sound like "normal" behaviour for her. No excusing it as this or that, have her checked out.


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## Raziel

WOW. 
You said she doesnt like it when you put your face close. Maybe thats why she did it...
Kilo WILL BITE me if I touch his tail (ie brushing...)
I dont know. Thats a little bit scary that she bit you in the face.
I would be careful of your daughter getting bit.
Is it possible she has a toothache or something like that???
Just a thought.


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## 3K9Mom

> Quote:
> Afterward Heidi did not seem particularly repentant


When dogs seem "repentant," it's because they're afraid of the anger that the humans just showed them. Dogs don't feel guilt and don't apologize. That's completely a human construct. So you can't form any sort of opinion based on this. Please don't assume she's more or less aggressive because she didn't seem to feel guilty.


Otherwise, I completely agree with Lucia. This is a dog that I would take to the vet asap. She seems to have a lot going on in exactly the same area where she doesn't like being petted; and you say that the behavior has a somewhat clear date of onset (the last year)...as opposed to it being a lifetime behavior.

A complete physical exam is in order. Also ask your vet to run a CBC, which includes a thyroid panel, to start with.


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## BowWowMeow

I agree with 3k9Mom and Lucia. Pain reaction and time for the vet.


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## Minnieski

My parents have a 9 year old lab (Bub) who is sweet as pie, but he has arthritis in his shoulder. One day, while we were visiting, he jumped off the back of a truck bed (big no no). A little while later dh was playing with him and touched his shoulder. Bub whipped around and snapped at him. He has known dh for years, but he just reacted to the pain. I'd take her to the vet.


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## shilohsmom

I agree about the Vet, and if all checks out consider this a learning experience for you. From what I understand you were doing things she clearly doesn't like but you kept doing them and last night she snapped. Now I don't condone this type of behavior but our pets have limits too and its our job to understand and respect those limits. My dear, sweet little Shoshona (the little perfect Angel I often describe) will take my face off if I dare catch a hair while grooming her private area. I still groom her there but believe me I use caution and am ready to jump.


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## SouthernThistle

Just going to agree what has been said: VET.


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## mysablegsd

I am always amazed at the number of people that put up with biting dogs. 101 excuses. Sorry, unless the dog is in severe pain from a broken shoulder or something, no excuse would fly with me.

Oh, my dog had an ear infection and it tried to rip my face off when I touched her head. Nonsense. 
I have had dogs with ear infections, mites, a painful calcium deposit on her shoulder, a torn dewclaw, etc, etc. and not one of them tried to bite me, let alone on the face.


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## mysablegsd

> Originally Posted By: shilohsmomI agree about the Vet, and if all checks out consider this a learning experience for you. From what I understand you were doing things she clearly doesn't like but you kept doing them and last night she snapped. Now I don't condone this type of behavior but our pets have limits too and its our job to understand and respect those limits. My dear, sweet little Shoshona (the little perfect Angel I often describe) will take my face off if I dare catch a hair while grooming her private area. I still groom her there but believe me I use caution and am ready to jump.


Why don't you muzzle that bitch and tie her head?


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## Alto

& in the meantime, to keep yourselves & Heidi safe, she's off the couch etc; instead make sure she has comfy beds on the floor & either a crate or _off limits area _that she can go to or you can send her to: no one gets to pet her etc when she's there; if people want to interect with her, it means calling her out of the _off limits area _ (this is why something physical like a crate is easier than just a blanket).



> Quote: She suddenly lunged and bit my face in several places


Do you mean that she bit more than once or just one bite with many teeth?



> Quote: Here is my take on this: I was doing something that I know from previous experience makes Heidi uncomfortable, which isn't a good reason for her to bite, but was still foolish and dangerous on my part. I was sitting below her in a position that can hardly be called an "alpha position."


Foolish perhaps BUT she could've growled or lifted her lip or air snapped or nipped or moved off, that she did none of those things, is significant. 

At this point, you know she is not trustworthy, so don't, until you figure out what is going on: even with the bite, this was still very much a warning ...

Whether it's pain related or neurological, I'd avoid the possibilty of a repeat, so very limited physical contact until she's had a thorough exam (while muzzled) by a vet.


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## shilohsmom

> Originally Posted By: gsdsr#1
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: shilohsmomI agree about the Vet, and if all checks out consider this a learning experience for you. From what I understand you were doing things she clearly doesn't like but you kept doing them and last night she snapped. Now I don't condone this type of behavior but our pets have limits too and its our job to understand and respect those limits. My dear, sweet little Shoshona (the little perfect Angel I often describe) will take my face off if I dare catch a hair while grooming her private area. I still groom her there but believe me I use caution and am ready to jump.
> 
> 
> 
> Why don't you muzzle that bitch and tie her head?
Click to expand...

She's NOT A BITCH-YOU'D PROBABLY HAVE THE SAME RESPONSE IF SOMEONE WENT INTO YOUR PRIVATE AREA AND PULLED HAIR!


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## shilohsmom

I apologize for not having an appropriate response for this forum. I have notified mods. Just because someone says something completely WRONG and nasty doesn't mean I have to respond as such.


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## WiscTiger

gsdsr#1, just wondering if you have ever dealt with a dog that has nerve problems. What works for normal dogs will get you bit by dogs that have weak nerves. You can only put so much pressure on these dogs and they will react. Muzzling or tie the head of a weak nerved dog is already starting to put them in panic mode.

Forcing a dog to submit to your touches isn't always the best way to get things done. Part of it will depend on the dog and if there are any underlying medical conditions.

I hope that you used the term bitch as in female dog.

Val
Wisc.Tiger - Admin


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## Raziel

Is she a nervous dog usually?? Or is this sudden?


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## shilohsmom

Very well said Val. This little girl could very well be like my Shoshi-the nervous type. Nervous dogs react to situations differently and you need to know their limits. We can work on those limits in hopes of making them more comfortable in these situations, but the last thing you would want to do is muzzle or tie a nervous dog when you are trying to work with them. 

Lets just get this little girl checked medically and go from there.


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## 3K9Mom

> Originally Posted By: gsdsr#1I am always amazed at the number of people that put up with biting dogs. 101 excuses.


I don't see anyone making excuses. 

I see a bunch of experienced dog owners (experienced GSD owners in fact) suggesting that we rule out veterinary causes before we assume there is a behavioral cause.

Often, inexperienced or ignorant owners overreact to behaviors that have relatively simple (and manageable) organic explanations. They become angry (anger only confuses dogs); they call in trainers (a good trainer will tell you to take the dog to a vet first anyhow); they take more drastic steps.... but the answer was right there under their noses the whole time. 

In fact, often, the dog did give warning, but the owner didn't see or understand the stress signals the dog gave (dilated pupils, lip-licking, yawning, etc). So they think it's an attack "out of the blue," but it wasn't. I don't know if that's the case here, because the OP was sitting under her dog and wouldn't have seen them. But it's hard to know whether Heidi gave warning signs that were ignored. 

I too have never had a sick or injured dog bite me (but the OP admits that she has continued to bother the dog despite the fact that she knew it bothered her girl, whereas I left my injured/sick dog in peace until I got the problem resolved). 

I HAVE seen my sweet completely placid dog's personality change as her thyroid levels dropped, and she grew cranky with her packmates. Once we put her on thyroid meds, she was back to being her happy bouncing self. I have seen the personalities of dogs who are very ill change right before my eyes. 

As I said to the OP, we *start* with a thorough vet exam and a Complete Blood Count. If this dog is sick, injured or both, forcing her into a training regime will do nothing but make her feel worse. 

Is that what you would intend us to do? 

If we rule out organic causes for this behavior, then we know that we need to address this behaviorally. Even if there are certain organic causes, we may be able to address them via training, management, or both. But imo, the humane thing to do is start with a vet exam. No excuses, no rationalizations. Just starting at the most logical place.


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## Castlemaid

> Originally Posted By: gsdsr#1I am always amazed at the number of people that put up with biting dogs. 101 excuses. Sorry, unless the dog is in severe pain from a broken shoulder or something, no excuse would fly with me.
> 
> Oh, my dog had an ear infection and it tried to rip my face off when I touched her head. Nonsense.
> I have had dogs with ear infections, mites, a painful calcium deposit on her shoulder, a torn dewclaw, etc, etc. and not one of them tried to bite me, let alone on the face.


So I'm curious. What would happen to a dog of yours if it did try to bite you for something you would consider minor? How would you deal with it?


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## Ruthie

> Originally Posted By: gsdsr#1I am always amazed at the number of people that put up with biting dogs. 101 excuses. Sorry, unless the dog is in severe pain from a broken shoulder or something, no excuse would fly with me.


Biting is a form of communication. Trying to find out what the dog was trying to communicate is not making excuses. Without finding the root cause of the bite, and dealing with THAT you are leaving yourself open to future bites.


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## Bridget

Thanks for the input. It sounds like a consensus that Heidi should be seen by the vet first thing. BTW the lump turned out to be a fluid-filled cyst and the vet drained it and said no big deal, except it may come back, which is something I may check out as it pertains to this. I was stroking her so lightly that it is hard to believe I was hurting her, but I think vet is still, as stated above, the best place to start. 

Heidi does indeed have a nervous temperament, always has. So I have to take it into consideration too, although not using it as an excuse.


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## WiscTiger

When working with a nervous type dog I don't think many people understand that the thresholds are so much lower than with a dog that has good nerve. So I am not sure that it is an excuse but more trying to work withing the capabilities of the dog. I have a weak nerved dog and how I handle her is much different than how I handle my two dogs with really good nerves.

I still think the Vet visit with a full blood work up is the first place to start, but I have a question, you said you were petting every so softly, is it possible that you were really annoying her and that is why she reacted, because you were I believe being on the floor blocking her escape path. I have one female that if I touch her too softly she gets really PO'ed at me, it really annoys her and really makes her skin crawl and twitch.

Val


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## Daisy1986

That is a good point Val. Shadow is nevery, he has more of a flight response. 

He does not like it if I tickle him while petting, he lets me know in other ways besides a violent bite, he uses he mouth, but not to hurt me...just like STOP IT, almost in a playful way. I read his signals and stop, before he bites (or should say mouths) me. 

Let us know what the vet says. I feel for you. This would freak me out to get bit in the face by my GSD. 

My Terrier...well that is a different story, although painful, not AS terrifying...he bites at me. Like someone said, dogs do use their mouths to let you know how they feel. I have had to learn Bruno's signels in a different way, than Shadow.


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## selzer

Check thyroid levels. Arwen has just had low thyroid at nine, was spayed just under seven. Could be dietary, just one point, but low thyroid could cause aggression problems and aggression at owners is what they were looking for when doing a study of low thyroid. 

Thankfully, Arwen is not having this problem, but something to definitely consider with the vet visit. 

I can touch any of my dogs anywhere. I cannot imagine having a dog that I must avoid certain places on their body. Even with the many ear infections that Arwen had, she has never shown any aggression when I am cleaning or putting meds in the ears. So my question is, if we accept that a dog just doesn't like being touched here or there, and avoid it or allow a negative response, then does it escalate from there?

I hope you find out what is ailing heidi. While the bite drew blood, I wonder if it was still a snap, more than an actual bite. Snaps are that last chance so to speak before I bite you good. With you on the floor, I guess it is possible that she misjudged the snap. I don't know, I hate to think of an old lady like her suddenly biting.


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## Bridget

I reexamined my face and think that she got me with several teeth, rather than biting me several times, as I earlier stated. It alll happened so fast. I think it was more of a snap than full-fledged bite. 

I am grateful to have so many possibilities to mention to my vet.

At the same time, I am taking seriously the off-the-couch suggestion. Also, Heidi always goes to the store with me and she enjoys and expects it. Last night I took a lab instead, not because I was mad or trying to exact revenge, and I don't think for a minute that Heidi connects biting me on Wednesday with not getting to go to the store on Thursday. But I am thinking it may be good for Heidi overall to understand that things like that are not absolutes, that I control who I take with me. Good idea or no? 

I, too, hate to think of not being able to touch her in certain spots, because Heidi has friends who are children and they are not going to remember that, although I always warn them about her hips.


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## Dainerra

I would definitely keep her away from kids until you figure out what is wrong. 

as far as pain, ear infections can be VERY painful. I just got over one where the whole side of my face couldn't bear to be touched. wind blowing in my ear hurt so bad I wanted to faint. so, even light stroking could cause her serious pain. plus, as others mentioned, you might not have noticed signals she was giving off that she wanted you to stop. if you persisted, it could have left her feeling no choice but a quick snap to get your attention.


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## 2Dogs

> Originally Posted By: shilohsmom
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: gsdsr#1
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: shilohsmomI agree about the Vet, and if all checks out consider this a learning experience for you. From what I understand you were doing things she clearly doesn't like but you kept doing them and last night she snapped. Now I don't condone this type of behavior but our pets have limits too and its our job to understand and respect those limits. My dear, sweet little Shoshona (the little perfect Angel I often describe) will take my face off if I dare catch a hair while grooming her private area. I still groom her there but believe me I use caution and am ready to jump.
> 
> 
> 
> Why don't you muzzle that bitch and tie her head?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> She's NOT A BITCH-YOU'D PROBABLY HAVE THE SAME RESPONSE IF SOMEONE WENT INTO YOUR PRIVATE AREA AND PULLED HAIR!
Click to expand...

I think you misunderstand. Thisis a GSD forum, dealing with dogs. The common vernacular calls dogs of both genders dogs. Truth be told a DOG is a male, and a Bitch is a female. Since you indicated gender the poster was simply asking why you would allow an agressive dog that you cannot control without restraints to attack you? I think he was simply trying to let you know that by binding the head and muzzling you could groom away. Your vet will do exactly that if the bitch has an agressive tendancy like yours does. I hope that helps.


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## 2Dogs

> Originally Posted By: 3K9Mom
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: gsdsr#1I am always amazed at the number of people that put up with biting dogs. 101 excuses.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see anyone making excuses.
> 
> I see a bunch of experienced dog owners (experienced GSD owners in fact) suggesting that we rule out veterinary causes before we assume there is a behavioral cause.
> 
> Often, inexperienced or ignorant owners overreact to behaviors that have relatively simple (and manageable) organic explanations. They become angry (anger only confuses dogs); they call in trainers (a good trainer will tell you to take the dog to a vet first anyhow); they take more drastic steps.... but the answer was right there under their noses the whole time.
> 
> In fact, often, the dog did give warning, but the owner didn't see or understand the stress signals the dog gave (dilated pupils, lip-licking, yawning, etc). So they think it's an attack "out of the blue," but it wasn't. I don't know if that's the case here, because the OP was sitting under her dog and wouldn't have seen them. But it's hard to know whether Heidi gave warning signs that were ignored.
> 
> I too have never had a sick or injured dog bite me (but the OP admits that she has continued to bother the dog despite the fact that she knew it bothered her girl, whereas I left my injured/sick dog in peace until I got the problem resolved).
> 
> I HAVE seen my sweet completely placid dog's personality change as her thyroid levels dropped, and she grew cranky with her packmates. Once we put her on thyroid meds, she was back to being her happy bouncing self. I have seen the personalities of dogs who are very ill change right before my eyes.
> 
> As I said to the OP, we *start* with a thorough vet exam and a Complete Blood Count. If this dog is sick, injured or both, forcing her into a training regime will do nothing but make her feel worse.
> 
> Is that what you would intend us to do?
> 
> If we rule out organic causes for this behavior, then we know that we need to address this behaviorally. Even if there are certain organic causes, we may be able to address them via training, management, or both. But imo, the humane thing to do is start with a vet exam. No excuses, no rationalizations. Just starting at the most logical place.
Click to expand...









Well put


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## Dainerra

I'd say that the tone of the post in question is definitely NOT just using dog vernacular. at least, I would have taken it the same way that she did.

the wording "why don't you muzzle her.." would have worked just as well. but chosing to say "muzzle that bitch" is a much more confrontational tone


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## Jax08

> Originally Posted By: DainerraI'd say that the tone of the post in question is definitely NOT just using dog vernacular. at least, I would have taken it the same way that she did.
> 
> the wording "why don't you muzzle her.." would have worked just as well. but chosing to say "muzzle that bitch" is a much more confrontational tone


And that it was said on the heels of the prior post by the same person that was pretty confrontational as well. 

But anyways...To the OP...please let us know how you make out!!!


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## Alto

How does Heidi comminicate with other dogs?
If they are doing something she doesn't like, does she snap, growl etc or do they all just 'respect her space'?



> Quote: Heidi always goes to the store with me and she enjoys and expects it.


If you haven't already, I'd treat train her to a basket muzzle & start using that on outings where other people might accidentally touch her & trigger a reaction - if you don't think of this as a punishment, & you train it correctly, she'll think the muzzle is the greatest prize on earth








Similarly, print out these articles & really think about how they (might) apply to what's going on with your dogs; nervous or unconfident dogs usually respond very positively to NILIF. 

http://k9deb.com/NILIF.html
http://k9deb.com/social.html

Has Heidi had any pain assesments done?


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## tuco

I take in problem dogs. Dogs that nobody wants for all kinds of reasons. Since I have so many, the times I spend with each dog daily, are filled with me loving on them and I kiss every dog on the lips.

I don't care what the reason is. If any of my dogs bit me in the face, when I am loving on them, that would be it. I would take them to the Vet to be PTS.
It doesn't matter what pain or any other excuse one wants to come up with. That behavior cannot be tolerated.

There are so many, many loving dogs out there, who wish they had someone to love and kiss on them, that no excuse will justify your own dog attacking your face.


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## Alto

> Quote: That behavior cannot be tolerated.


this is how some dogs feel about all the touchy/feely stuff humans do - if your dog gives clear signals that he does not like what you are doing (maybe pain related, may just be his temperament) & you insist on doing it, pushing, pushing at the dog, what is the dog supposed to do, jump the fence & run away from home


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## aubie

I don't agree with that at all. My mom and dad's small dog bit my dad on the nose, cause my dad was in the dog's face and doing things he shouldn't. She bit, but other than that was a great dog and never did it again.

Dogs can't communicate the way we do and biting is part of their communication...it's in their play, anger, fear, pain, happiness, etc. It's part of their language. Although there is a difference between an aggressive dog that bites and a dog that is in pain and bites.

Oftentimes humans who are in pain will lash out on people if they are touched...my DH has seen this many times as a medic. If it hurts and someone touches it, people tend to scream or physically lash out. Why do we expect so much different or more from an animal?


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## tuco

Any dog owner should know if their dog has a sensitive area on their body due to pain. If one touches their dog and they yelp, whine, etc., of course the source of the pain should be addressed. 

Any dog who is so weak, that they attack their owner's face, and draw blood, for giving love, should be given a dirt nap.
I deal with extreme manbiters. There are some of these, that after bonding with the family are the most loving and appreciative dogs there are.

What good is some cur who doesn't want love or to be touched?
There is no way, I would bend to the will of some weak minded cur who communicates by biting the owner in the face.
To each his own.


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## APBTLove

Tuco. If this were bulldog I'd agree, heck, if it were my GSD's I'd agree, but hardly any other breeds are held up the the standard our dogs (bulldogs) are... 

The situation with Heidi is strange to say the least... If she's willing to bite her owner/leader in the face for nothing, what happens if you have a kid over, or when you're out a toddler runs up and goes to pet her before you can react? Start practicing some serious NILIF, not letting her on any furniture, making sure she sees you as leader and protector. I highly suggest crating her if you have other people over... If you plan on working with this dog you need to really crack the whip. No more free anything. Make sure she is 100% healthy, maybe with her age something to take the edge off of any pain could help.

Bridget said she was touching her so lightly that it couldn't have hurt.

I suppose I'm used to MY dogs not tearing at my face. MY GSD's may flinch and whip their faces near my hand if I'm cleaning wounds, but never bite. My old bulldog (others in the past as well) might whine a little, but held still and let me do what I have to with fight wounds or even from them stepping on glass, getting caught in thorn bushes, whatever, even when I know what
I'm doing is not comfortable to them, they would never bite me for it. They know where I stand. Even my NERVEY 8 moth old GSD pup knows better than to ever lay a tooth on me, and he's the type who would crap himself if a kid ran at him. 

I grew up, as many know, with GSDs and BYBs, even then the dogs knew who the F was in charge and was not to be harmed. At about 5 or so I remember climbing into the dog house with a dam and her pups. She left the house. At five the dogs knew not to touch me... Granted, my parents were idiots for letting me play with pups nearly alone with the dam around.

The only time one of my dogs has ever bitten me for real (and the only time I would excuse it) was the 15 year old male shepherd biting my arm as I went to unlatch the gate from the outside. I let him go with it and greeted him directly afterward because:
I was wearing a hoodie.
I had just gotten out of a strange car.
I smelled like strangers and other dogs.
I didn't speak and I walked to the gate.

He broke skin and I still have scars from it, but that was different. As soon as he realized what he did he lowered his head and tail and gently wagged it, and slowly came to me with puppy eyes. 

I don't know your dog's story... Have you owned her for the majority of her life? Rescue? I don't have time to go look up every one of your posts... How old is your daughter? If she's willing to bite you, what would she do to her? 

As I said, I'm a bit wrong-footed feeling here, as even the most nervy dog I've met, mine, wouldn't dare touch me, and if he did he wouldn't do it again. 



Hun, I wish you the best of luck, it's going to be tough, but worth it if you work very hard with her!


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## Jax08

> Originally Posted By: APBTLoveTuco. If this were bulldog I'd agree, heck, if it were my GSD's I'd agree, but hardly any other breeds are held up the the standard our dogs (bulldogs) are...


Why would you agree if this were a bulldog rather than another breed?


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## tuco

> Originally Posted By: APBTLoveTuco. If this were bulldog I'd agree, heck, if it were my GSD's I'd agree, but hardly any other breeds are held up the the standard our dogs (bulldogs) are..


Less than a third of my dogs are bulldogs. I don't ask a lot from any of the dogs I feed. I DO ask them to be decent dogs.
Enjoying attention and love, and returning love are two traits I expect from any dog I feed.

Believe me, there are some very loving, hearty and impressive mixes and breeds out there. Bulldogs and GSD's don't have a lock on being the best all around dog or pet.


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## APBTLove

> Originally Posted By: Jax08
> 
> 
> 
> Why would you agree if this were a bulldog rather than another breed?


Because with the horrible reputation these dogs have, and how they are bred to not have any HA, it is completely not tolerated in the breed... I won't take this off topic, but if you want to know more don't hesitate to PM me... Tuco may be willing to talk to you as well.


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## selzer

Tuco, you take in problem dogs, dogs that have been raised by other people and are getting a second chance, possibly a last chance with you. 

If you raised a dog up from a puppy, and now it is ten years old, and suddenly it bit you in the face, you would not look for a medical reason before going for the needle? 

I am sorry. I do not believe that a bite equals a death sentence. Everything has to be taken into consideration in my opinion. I do believe that putting a dog down due to aggression is an option, just that it is never to be generalized like that.


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## tuco

APBTLove Tuco may be willing to talk to you as well.[/quote said:


> you know I love visiting with Jax


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## Jax08

> Originally Posted By: APBTLove
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: Jax08
> 
> Why would you agree if this were a bulldog rather than another breed?
> 
> 
> 
> Because with the horrible reputation these dogs have, and how they are bred to not have any HA, it is completely not tolerated in the breed... I won't take this off topic, but if you want to know more don't hesitate to PM me... Tuco may be willing to talk to you as well.
Click to expand...

I don't need more information. I was asking why you chose "bulldogs" to be PTS if they bite and your response seems to be because of their reputation and what they are bred for. If that were the case then dobie's, rottie's, GSD's would all be at the top of the hit list as well as no breed should be bred to be HA. That would be a zero tolerance policy regardless of breed. 

And this thread is already way off topic. The topic was the OP asking for opinions on her dog. The consensus was to take her in for medical testing, which should be the first step regardless of the breed, and make sure there was nothing physical going on with her. I believe this "aggression", as it's been deemed, started recently. This would imply to me that it is not true HA.

That leads to the next question...Shouldn't these steps be taken with all dogs before labeling them as HA and euthanizing them?


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## tuco

> Originally Posted By: selzerTuco, you take in problem dogs, dogs that have been raised by other people and are getting a second chance, possibly a last chance with you.
> 
> If you raised a dog up from a puppy, and now it is ten years old, and suddenly it bit you in the face, you would not look for a medical reason before going for the needle?
> 
> I am sorry. I do not believe that a bite equals a death sentence. Everything has to be taken into consideration in my opinion. I do believe that putting a dog down due to aggression is an option, just that it is never to be generalized like that.


Of course, the scenario you speak of would be different.
If the 10yr old had always been a good dog, then of course I would feel age had affected his or her mind, and make exceptions.


----------



## AbbyK9

> Quote:I don't care what the reason is. If any of my dogs bit me in the face, when I am loving on them, that would be it. I would take them to the Vet to be PTS. It doesn't matter what pain or any other excuse one wants to come up with. That behavior cannot be tolerated.


I would honestly hate to be one of the dogs in your care.

Whenever you have a really odd behavior like sudden aggression, medical is the first thing that should be looked at, not putting the dog to sleep. 

Human beings who are in pain can communicate - don't touch me, it hurts, I am in so much pain. But even human beings, when in enough pain, are often unable to communicate that and lash out at those trying to help them, whether physically or verbally.

Dogs don't have the option of telling you, "that hurts" or "I am really uncomfortable with this, please stop", and if you don't read their subtle body language signals, such as the ones described further up in the thread, any dog that is in pain and discomfort can and will bite.

I read on one of the dog boards - I believe it was this one - a story about a Cocker Spaniel who had always been a great family pet, but one day, "out of the blue", bit the child in the family in the face. The parents were horrified. Their dog had never done this before. They took the dog to be put to sleep immediately. When the vet put the dog to sleep, he happened to notice that there was a crayon lodged in the dog's ear - the child, unsupervised with the dog, had done it. And a perfectly good dog, who had reacted out of pain and fear, had been put to sleep for no reason at all.



> Quote:Any dog who is so weak, that they attack their owner's face, and draw blood, for giving love, should be given a dirt nap.
> I deal with extreme manbiters. There are some of these, that after bonding with the family are the most loving and appreciative dogs there are.


Exactly how do you deal with these dogs if you response to biting or attempted biting is to have the dog put to sleep?


----------



## AbbyK9

> Quote:Of course, the scenario you speak of would be different.
> If the 10yr old had always been a good dog, then of course I would feel age had affected his or her mind, and make exceptions.


Maybe you should have read the thread before giving the opinion the dog should be PTS for biting her owner. The dog in question is going on nine years old and has shown aggression, along with health issues, for the last year.


----------



## tuco

> Originally Posted By: Jax08
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: APBTLove
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: Jax08
> 
> Why would you agree if this were a bulldog rather than another breed?
> 
> 
> 
> Because with the horrible reputation these dogs have, and how they are bred to not have any HA, it is completely not tolerated in the breed... I won't take this off topic, but if you want to know more don't hesitate to PM me... Tuco may be willing to talk to you as well.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't need more information. I was asking why you chose "bulldogs" to be PTS if they bite and your response seems to be because of their reputation and what they are bred for. If that were the case then dobie's, rottie's, GSD's would all be at the top of the hit list as well as no breed should be bred to be HA. That would be a zero tolerance policy regardless of breed.
> 
> And this thread is already way off topic. The topic was the OP asking for opinions on her dog. The consensus was to take her in for medical testing, which should be the first step regardless of the breed, and make sure there was nothing physical going on with her. I believe this "aggression", as it's been deemed, started recently. This would imply to me that it is not true HA.
> 
> That leads to the next question...Shouldn't these steps be taken with all dogs before labeling them as HA and euthanizing them?
Click to expand...

Jax, there is a Huge difference between a dog being HA, and a dog biting it's owner in the face.
I have several very HA dogs. If they see a stranger they go into attack mode immediately. The dogs I speak of, are cuddly, teddy bears with me and my family.

I understand this, and accept the responsibility of owning such animals. 
What I will never understand or accept, is a dog biting it's owner.


----------



## Jax08

I know there is a huge difference between the HA and a dog biting his owner. That supports my philosophy in that all medical problems should be ruled out be before labeling the dog as aggressive and euthanizing them. 

Especially in this situation where the dog has just recently started showing aggressive signs. Thyroid, brain tumor, anything could be causing this.


----------



## shilohsmom

OMG, Chris, that is such a heartbreaking story about the Cocker Spaniel...it brings tears to my eyes. It also speaks volumes about our dogs and our need to understand them. 

As humans we have a responsiblity to try to understand our dogs. We need to know and respect their limits. They are not perfect but neither am I. I am, however, responsible for them and that responsibilty doesn't stop the moment they 'misbehave'. I'm not saying its ok for a dog to bite but these are our pets and we owe it to them to respect their boundries and work with them as such. 

When I was blessed to have three pups I took on that responsiblity and accepted that responsibilty for the life's of these dogs. 

There are a world of options avail to Bridget and Heidi which don't include putting a dog down that she clearly loves. I don't even know why such comments need to be made here or how that can be concieved as 'helpful'. This world would be a much better place if people stepped up to the plate (as she has) and gets help to change this behaviour rather than 1. killing the dog 2. dumping at the shelter. 

How many times have we sceen basically this same post but with the OP instead stating they now want to rehome their dog because of it? Many, many times. Then we all go off on how this is your dog and how you should rule out medical, get training, blah, blah, blah....I just think its refreshing to see someone actually stepping up to the plate and willing to work on changing this behavior. For that I think Bridget should be applauded, not told to PTS her cherished pet.


----------



## tuco

> Originally Posted By: Historian
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:Of course, the scenario you speak of would be different.
> If the 10yr old had always been a good dog, then of course I would feel age had affected his or her mind, and make exceptions.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe you should have read the thread before giving the opinion the dog should be PTS for biting her owner. The dog in question is going on nine years old and has shown aggression, along with health issues, for the last year.
Click to expand...

Perhaps You should have read this thread closer.
The OP's situation is different than the scenario presented to me.
The OP's dog is going on nine. That's a defending way of stating, the dog is eight.
Me raising a pup for 10yrs, and it always been a good dog, then suddenly one day biting my face, is much different than the OP's.

The OP's dog has been acting flakey for a year. More important than that, the OP states, and I quote,
*Heidi does indeed have a nervous temperament, <u>always has</u>. So I have to take it into consideration too, although not using it as an excuse. *

Can you not read between the lines?


----------



## AbbyK9

> Quote:The OP's dog is going on nine. That's a defending way of stating, the dog is eight.


Actually, the OP's dog is past 8.5 years in age, which is a lot closer to nine than it is to eight. Of course, I don't see a vast difference between the dog being eight and the dog being nine.



> Quote:Me raising a pup for 10yrs, and it always been a good dog, then suddenly one day biting my face, is much different than the OP's.


Really? How is it "much different"? The OP has been raising this dog for nearly eight years and she's always been a good dog, except that she has a nervous temperament. Just because a dog has a nervous temperament or a dog is weak nerved doesn't mean that it's not a good dog or that the dog is somehow dangerous. 

You will also note that, even thought the dog has "always had a nervous temperament", this has been the first time she has bitten her owner. And yes, the dog has been acting differently for a year - she's been going through various illnesses for a year: ear infections, arthritis, etc. But this is the first time she has bitten the OP.

So, no, it's not "much different". It's quite similar to having had a good dog for 10 years and suddenly getting bitten.


----------



## Jax08

We did read between the lines and it said "Take the 8 year old dog to the vet to test for any and all medical conditions before writing the dog off as a "weak minded cur who communicates by biting the owner in the face."


----------



## Castlemaid

OMG tuco!! How could I have missed it!!! You are so right!!! 

This dog has a nervous temperament and always has, but the OP isn't using that as an excuse!!! Boy, do I feel stupid!!! 

There it was, right in front of me!!! 

ummm . . . I had mentioned the nervous temperament to comment that the dog's actions were not very likely to be dominance motivated: shy nervous dogs rarely bite their owners out of a sudden urge to become the alpha in the house hold, but I'm sure with your dog rehabiliation experience, you know that. 

And Oh My Gosh!!! THe OP ADMITS to not making excuses for her dog and is willing to take responsibility for her actions! 

So what exactly is the problem here?? 

Though I don't think that we need to get too upset here, I really doubt that the OP will be euthanizing her dog over this incident, but is more likely going to try and help the dog.


----------



## tuco

Historian said:


> Quote:I would honestly hate to be one of the dogs in your care.
> 
> 
> 
> No worries. You wouldn't make the cut.
Click to expand...


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## WiscTiger

Once again, we have one or two members who feel that they know exactly what is going on in another persons' house with their dog(s).

tuco, I think the dirt nap statement pretty much shows your attitude toward your dogs. I am glad that my dogs are here with me and not with your subjected to you attitude and PTS or dirt nap. 

Many people don't know who to deal with dogs that have nerve problems or don't realize that a dog can react very differently when in pain. Most of the members here are trying to help other members and not insult them or make them feel bad or stupid. 

What works for me handling my dogs may not work for another person, there are lots of different ways to handle dogs and there is NO ONE PERSON or ONE WAY that is perfect for every dog.

tuco, really I can read between the lines on your posts very well.

Val


----------



## APBTLove

Opinions are like - well you know.

I've given my opinion and suggestions and so has everyone else here...

Tuco, I really wish I could see you on PBC. There are a few shepherd people there as well. 


To Bridget, good luck, be careful, and have a nice weekend.


----------



## selzer

8.5 or 10 years, is there really a difference? Both are mature dogs.

I said suddenly bit you in the face. I did not say that the dog was always a good dog. But I did imply that the dog has never bitten you in the face before. 

I think that you do not sit there making a list of all a dog's transgressions through its lifetime to determine whether it qualifies for a complete physical make up before deciding whether the dog needs medicine, behavior modification/leadership, or euthanasia. 

At the same time, maybe I am just fortunate, but I do not like the idea of a dog having places it is not willing to have touched, just as a regular thing. Not by the owner. A dog might not like strangers coming over its head to pet it, but if I come over its head to pet it, I better not sport teeth marks. 

The dog that doesn't like it privates groomed, well, I am not sure about that. I mean people can be pretty careful about those parts, but it is usually one of the first things dogs check out. They do not seem overly sensitive about them, in fact the little hussies are rather free with them. I do not know what grooming is required there anyway, but well, I wonder if the owner feels a bit weird about grooming that section and the dog is picking up on that.


----------



## aubie

> Originally Posted By: tucoAny dog who is so weak, that they attack their owner's face, and draw blood, for giving love, should be given a dirt nap. *I deal with extreme manbiters*. There are some of these, that after bonding with the family are the most loving and appreciative dogs there are.
> 
> *What good is some cur who doesn't want love or to be touched?* There is no way, I would bend to the will of some weak minded cur who communicates by biting the owner in the face. To each his own.


Wait wait, I'm confused...you "work" with manbiters but you just said you would put any such dog to sleep? So it's "workable" unless the dog bites its owner? Or after _you _work with them they no longer are biters but great dogs, but you won't give a possibly sick dog a chance? That makes no flippin sense.

Back to the OP since tuco is just here to stir up crap and contribute nothing, a pattern I notice....









Heidi needs to get a vet check, full work up. It could be anything from thyroid to bodily pain to an ear infection. You know her better than anyone, especially us.


----------



## Raziel

> Originally Posted By: APBTLove
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: Jax08
> 
> 
> 
> Why would you agree if this were a bulldog rather than another breed?
> 
> 
> 
> Because with the horrible reputation these dogs have, and how they are bred to not have any HA, it is completely not tolerated in the breed... I won't take this off topic, but if you want to know more don't hesitate to PM me... Tuco may be willing to talk to you as well.
Click to expand...

Ive never seen or read about a mean bulldog.
80 per cent of my friends have them....they are all dolls!

ANYWAYS, Good luck with your baby!!
I hope you find an answer to your problem with her.


----------



## APBTLove

> Originally Posted By: Angel R
> 
> Ive never seen or read about a mean bulldog.
> 80 per cent of my friends have them....they are all dolls!


Exactly, so when you DO have one that is truly Human Aggressive it needs to be dealt with and made sure it can never hurt a human, and be the next thing on the news. Whether it be doing the responsible, hard thing of euthanizing, or making sure the dog is secure at all times.


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## shilohsmom

Selzer, I don't know if its just the Long Coats (its been a long time since I've had anything but LC's) but they have little fine hairs in their private area and along their interthighs. These hairs are quick to bind and mat. I wish they weren't there as the skin just seems so much more tender in that area. Usually I just cut these out really quickly but I do have to stay on top of it because I don't want her (or my boys) walking around with mats there (or anywhere). 

Sorry, didn't want to hijack the thread just wanted to explain my grooming habits.


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## Jax08

Rosa...my collie hated it. He would snap at me if I got to close to that area. That doesn't mean I needed to muzzle him...just be aware of it because he would never hurt me, just mouth my hand. My himalayan hates it also. I can brush most of him out but when it comes to his belly it's a fight.

I would think that the longer hair gives more of a pull and gets snarled worse than the short hair so it hurts more.


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## selzer

Ok, I have never had a long coat. I was really at a loss, because I never had any problem going over them and never had to pay special attention to that area. 

Thanks for the education.


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## AbbyK9

> Originally Posted By: tuco
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: HistorianI would honestly hate to be one of the dogs in your care.
> 
> 
> 
> No worries. You wouldn't make the cut.
Click to expand...

Thank God.


----------



## codmaster

> Originally Posted By: AltoHow does Heidi comminicate with other dogs?
> If they are doing something she doesn't like, does she snap, growl etc or do they all just 'respect her space'?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote: Heidi always goes to the store with me and she enjoys and expects it.
> 
> 
> 
> If you haven't already, I'd treat train her to a basket muzzle & start using that on outings where other people might accidentally touch her & trigger a reaction - if you don't think of this as a punishment, & you train it correctly, she'll think the muzzle is the greatest prize on earth
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Similarly, print out these articles & really think about how they (might) apply to what's going on with your dogs; nervous or unconfident dogs usually respond very positively to NILIF.
> 
> http://k9deb.com/NILIF.html
> http://k9deb.com/social.html
> 
> Has Heidi had any pain assesments done?
Click to expand...

That is a GREAT site - THANKS!


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## aubie

I think Angel is thinking of an English Bulldog, you're talking about the American Pit Bull Terrier or APBT...just to clarify.


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## Raziel

> Originally Posted By: aubieI think Angel is thinking of an English Bulldog, you're talking about the American Pit Bull Terrier or APBT...just to clarify.


Yah, isnt that what she was talking about lol?
Or is she calling Pitbulls, bulldogs?
LOL now im confused


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## AbbyK9

I think she's talking about "bully breeds" in general, not just pitties.


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## DSudd

I would take her to the vet also. However I dont really see this as being the dogs fault, as pointed out the dog has been having problems for a year and the owner was doing something that she knew the dog didnt like. If there is something that truly bothers Rocky, I would not do it to him, nor would I let anyone else do it to him. it is no different then someone treating you in a manner you dont care for, you would not tolerate it.

I would always have this dog crated in a room with a closed door for her protection as wel as the guests in your home.

Rosa no reason for an apology, I probably would of resonded in the same way


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## shilohsmom

You know I got to thinking, it may not have been her touch at all...while she was doing this she may not have noticed Heidi may have moved in a way that she suddenly felt pain and associated the pain with Bridgets touch and snapped...its possible. 

Honestly, I'm just glad that Heidi will be checked out at the Vet and that Bridget is ok.


----------



## doggiedad

why do something you know she doesn't like? <



> Originally Posted By: BridgetFor the past year or so, Heidi has showed that she does not like for us to put our faces close to her, such as hugging her. Unfortunately my daughter and I have a tendency to be hands on with the dogs, burying our faces in their fur, that sort of thing.
> 
> 
> I was doing something that I know from previous experience makes Heidi uncomfortable,


----------



## Kayos and Havoc

> Originally Posted By: Historian
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: tuco
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: HistorianI would honestly hate to be one of the dogs in your care.
> 
> 
> 
> No worries. You wouldn't make the cut.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thank God.
Click to expand...











This is almost too funny! I don't see a lot of difference in a dog snapping or nippig or even biting when it is in serious pain and we continue to push it's buttons and a human who reacts with ENOUGH that hurts. Next time we need PTS the human that does that as obviously aggressive.


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## Debbieg

I bit my husbands finger when I was in hard labor with our first child because he put it right in my face! I had no history of biting and have not done so since!








DH learned to keep his hands away from my face with our 3 subsequent children!

If pain causes humans to do things they would not normally do, we should expect the same of dogs.

I am glad Heidi is going to the vet and hope they find a treatable cause for her behavior.


----------



## Jax08

> Originally Posted By: DebbiegI bit my husbands finger when I was in hard labor with our first child because he put it right in my face!


hmmmm...that is an obvious case of Handler Aggression. We'll start by muzzling you and working NILIF.


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## Kayos and Havoc

Should we use the female dog word too?


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## selzer

This thread sure has turned a corner I think.


----------



## Kayos and Havoc

Yeah it did!! 

I am looking forward to Heidi's vet report tho.


----------



## Bridget

Heidi has an appointment tomorrow. I will report on the results. This thread kind of opened a can or worms. I knew at the time I told about this that I was going to encounter the good, bad and ugly in responses and I am interested in all the different viewpoints. I think the general consensus is that this can be overlooked as an isolated incident if it was caused by pain. Barring that, I agree that it is never acceptable for a dog to bite unless she is protecting herself or family from an attack or obviously in the course of their work, such as police dog. However, I do believe that aggression problems can sometimes be worked out with training for the dog and the handler.


----------



## LisaT

> Originally Posted By: doggiedadwhy do something you know she doesn't like? <
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: BridgetFor the past year or so, Heidi has showed that she does not like for us to put our faces close to her, such as hugging her. Unfortunately my daughter and I have a tendency to be hands on with the dogs, burying our faces in their fur, that sort of thing.
> 
> 
> I was doing something that I know from previous experience makes Heidi uncomfortable,
Click to expand...

I agree doggiedad.

It sounds to me like this was an "invited bite". It was known that this dog had certain sensitivities, and a line was crossed. To me, that makes this bite the fault of the humans involved.

Now is it okay to have a dog that is inclined to bite? No, of course not. But once those tendecies are assessed, then work has to be done. 

At the vet, check for arthritis and neck problems, get the dog on a joint supplement if it's needed and not already being used, have the spine checked out, have the eyes checked. How is the digestion functioning?

Have the thryoid checked, free T4 and free T3 at minimum. A senior panel (bloodwork) if none has been done recently.

Max bit me once (small amount of blood). It was when he was new here, and I did something stupid from a training perspective. That told me the type of work that I needed to do with him so that he didn't bite again. And he hasn't, now he wouldn't think of it.

I suspect, though may be wrong, that Heidi has given LOTS of clues, but they haven't been followed through on. Just ignoring them, or letting her be, really isn't the solution. Counterconditioning for the behavior issues, and vet care/pain management for the rest.


----------



## Alto

I wouldn't really consider this "agression" - it seems to me more about communiction & that is definitely something that can be worked on by both the dog & the humans.

I'll add ears to Lisa's list, especially as I believe Heidi's had problems with ear infections - has she been checked for hearing loss?

Hope your face is feeling better & you're able to get your family onboard with NILIF (it's really such a simple thing & can be so effective in adjusting a dogs behavior)


----------



## mysablegsd

> Originally Posted By: shilohsmom
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: gsdsr#1
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: shilohsmomI agree about the Vet, and if all checks out consider this a learning experience for you. From what I understand you were doing things she clearly doesn't like but you kept doing them and last night she snapped. Now I don't condone this type of behavior but our pets have limits too and its our job to understand and respect those limits. My dear, sweet little Shoshona (the little perfect Angel I often describe) will take my face off if I dare catch a hair while grooming her private area. I still groom her there but believe me I use caution and am ready to jump.
> 
> 
> 
> Why don't you muzzle that bitch and tie her head?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> She's NOT A BITCH-YOU'D PROBABLY HAVE THE SAME RESPONSE IF SOMEONE WENT INTO YOUR PRIVATE AREA AND PULLED HAIR!
Click to expand...

If Shoshana is a she, she's a bitch. Again, why not be proactive and muzzle her and tie her head short?


----------



## mysablegsd

> Originally Posted By: Castlemaid
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: gsdsr#1I am always amazed at the number of people that put up with biting dogs. 101 excuses. Sorry, unless the dog is in severe pain from a broken shoulder or something, no excuse would fly with me.
> 
> Oh, my dog had an ear infection and it tried to rip my face off when I touched her head. Nonsense.
> I have had dogs with ear infections, mites, a painful calcium deposit on her shoulder, a torn dewclaw, etc, etc. and not one of them tried to bite me, let alone on the face.
> 
> 
> 
> So I'm curious. What would happen to a dog of yours if it did try to bite you for something you would consider minor? How would you deal with it?
Click to expand...

Hmm, grab her muzzle and growl no and lock her away for a while. But I'm not the one here with a biting problem. I think a lot of people coddle their dogs too much. JMO


----------



## WiscTiger

I treat my dogs fairly and they treat me fairly in return. I have all types of dogs from strong nerves, strong willed, weak nerves, soft dogs and then Labs who are just not my cup of tea.

I had an incident once on a believe it or not on a Friday the 13th. I use to use bungee cords to help hold gates closed or in place. We DeeDee hit the gate to open it, the bungee wasn't on but she hit it with her paw and it flew up and hooked in the center of her nose like a fish hook. She immediately went to paw at it and started pulling back. I grabbed her by the scruff of the neck and hole her to hold still. I looked at what we had going on, with my free hand I fished the bungee hook out of her nose. This is my weak nerved gal and I was able to do this because we have a bond and she trusts me. 

I do every now and then make a muzzle loop out of the leash and work with the dog a bit with that one so I know If I need to in an emergency I can do that and they won't fight it or freak out.

IF I have a dog that is having an issue with me touching a part of their body we work on it to make it a rewarding experience for the dog for letting me do what I have to do. Lakota has trouble with his ears and allergies, so when I have to treat his ears I just call him and say "hey Bubba lets get some stuff in those ears", he sits and lets me do it and then he is looking for his treats. Before this he would do what I call passive aggressive, he would lay on his side and pin the ear I wanted to work on to the floor. 

So I don't think muzzling is always necessary. Counter conditioning and working your dog through the problem is what I see as a better answer. But that is just me.

Val


----------



## Debbieg

[


> PHP:<div class="ubbcode-pre ubbcode-body" style="height: 100px;"><span style="color: #0000BB">quote</span><span style="color: #007700">=</span><span style="color: #0000BB">Wisc</span><span style="color: #007700">.</span><span style="color: #0000BB">Tiger</span><span style="color: #007700">]</span><span style="color: #0000BB">I treat my dogs fairly </span><span style="color: #007700">and </span><span style="color: #0000BB">they treat me fairly in </span><span style="color: #007700">return.
> 
> </span><span style="color: #0000BB">So I don</span><span style="color: #007700">'</span><span style="color: #0000BB">t think muzzling is always necessary. Counter conditioning and working your dog through the problem is what I see as a better answer. But that is just me.
> 
> Val


 </span>
</span>[/quote]


I could not agree more. Your dogs are very lucky to have you!


----------



## G-burg

How did the vet appointment go?


----------



## DnP

> Originally Posted By: gsdsr#1Hmm, grab her muzzle and growl no and lock her away for a while. But I'm not the one here with a biting problem. I think a lot of people coddle their dogs too much. JMO


This might work for your dogs, but not for every dog. Phoenix was a very mouth dog when I got him. The last thing you wanted to do was grab his muzzle and tell him know. It amped him up. He did not respond to such treatment.

Know how I stopped it. Lots of patience, teaching him what was proper to mouth and what was not and giving him the proper alternatives. What works with training one dog will not necessarily work for another.


----------



## DnP

> Originally Posted By: G-burgHow did the vet appointment go?


Wondering as well.


----------



## 3K9Mom

Hoping for answers.

Glad that the thread is back on track. When a member needs help, they certainly don't need someone who has never met the dog telling them to put their dog down. This is advice that should come after a thorough examination by a vet and a behaviorist (in fact, I think two -- of EACH).

Thinking of you and Heidi, Bridgett.


----------



## shilohsmom

Yeah, lets keep the thread back on track. I too, am wondering what the Vet has to say today.


----------



## windwalker718

Pain and nerve both are prolly in play. Duke was a Feral dog, and in stress times reverts. If cornered, or placed in a stressful situation (like doing his nails or any kind of full restraint) he is more than likely to snap before he even thinks. Whenever I know such a situation is going to arise I muzzle him. He is fine getting vac's @ the Vet, but if full restraint were to be required I absolutely would muzzle him. I've had other dogs whose reaction to restraint is to escape @ all cost... and have forced them to work thru that and accept it. Duke however is going to a place that probably saved his life in the wild for a couple years so I have to adjust MY way of dealing with him rather than expect him to adjust. We work on stretching that comfort zone all the time, but it's a constant work in progress. I don't consider him sound nerved. Ikon or Klytie might not LIKE what I did, but biting is 100% out of the question. 
My concern would be the dog's behavior around kids or other dogs who may cross the line with what she can tolerate without the bite response.


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## Bridget

Heidi is so-so around other dogs, but MUCH better than she used to be. We have worked A LOT on it.

Heidi's physical examination did not show anything other than the arthritis in her hips that we already knew about. I was almost a little disappointed, as it would be easier to write it off as a physical problem.

As it is, here are the conclusions I have come to after considering a lot of the comments on this thread, as well as doing much soul searching: Although Heidi may have been feeling her age, she most likely wasn't hurting enough to warrant her biting. I was not doing anything to her that should have caused her pain, although maybe she didn't want to be petted at that time. I have no intentions of putting Heidi down, but on the other hand, I do intend to take action, as this isn't something I can just put up with. This is not the first incident, although it is the worst. All incidents have been when Heidi is on the couch (interesting). Heidi has an attitude problem. Since things went well for several years, I have subconsciously put things on hold and stopped working on her improvement and mine. 

My course of action is, first and foremost, Heidi will no longer be queen of the couch. If a human is on the couch, Heidi isn't. If a human is sitting on the floor, Heidi will also be on the floor and in a drop postiion. In other words, Heidi will not be looming over us, which I think gives her a feeling of superiority and also makes it harder to protect yourself if there is a problem. Last but not least, I am returning and redoubling the NILIF concept. I also have a call into my trainer, who is also a behaviorist to get her views. If this happens again, I may have to resort to more drastic measures.

P.S. My daughter is 21 years old. Our whole family is on board with this.

Thanks, everyone for all the advice and suggestions.


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## shilohsmom

I'm thinking the bloodwork isn't back yet so maybe something will show in that, right? Either way, it does sound like your going to get things in order. I wish you and Heidi the best.


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## G-burg

Bridget~ that sounds like a good plan!!


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## 3K9Mom

My two cents? I'd not let Heidi on the couch at all. I find that my dogs all thrive with CONSISTENT rules. When I start creating contingent rules (if A, then B; but if C then not B), it's hard for me to remember, much less for my family members to follow through. Then the rules start to slip, and we're back to where we were.

And most importantly, it's not fair to the dog who is never quite sure if she's allowed on the sofa this time... or not? If the rule is no more couch EVER, then everyone is clear, starting with Heidi. Let's get her a nice comfy dog bed, and that is her new "couch". Since she doesn't like people messing with her at certain times, maybe she just gets left alone when she's on her bed. (Another rule. No messing with Heidi when she's on her bed.) This way, she knows that's her "peaceful" place. 

Besides, with her arthritis, hopping up and down on the sofa isn't great for her joints. 

Looking forward to the results of her blood test (esp her thyroid) and your trainer's insight.


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## Martie

> Originally Posted By: 3K9MomMy two cents? I'd not let Heidi on the couch at all. I find that my dogs all thrive with CONSISTENT rules. When I start creating contingent rules (if A, then B; but if C then not B), it's hard for me to remember, much less for my family members to follow through. Then the rules start to slip, and we're back to where we were.
> 
> And most importantly, it's not fair to the dog who is never quite sure if she's allowed on the sofa this time... or not? If the rule is no more couch EVER, then everyone is clear, starting with Heidi. Let's get her a nice comfy dog bed, and that is her new "couch". Since she doesn't like people messing with her at certain times, maybe she just gets left alone when she's on her bed. (Another rule. No messing with Heidi when she's on her bed.) This way, she knows that's her "peaceful" place.
> 
> Besides, with her arthritis, hopping up and down on the sofa isn't great for her joints.
> 
> Looking forward to the results of her blood test (esp her thyroid) and your trainer's insight.


Make that four cents!







Very good advice, 3K9Mom! Our Otto is one of those guys who needs unfailing consistency. The rules are black and white for him - no ambiguity - or he will start pushing boundaries all over the place.

I, too, look forward to the results of her blood test and trainer's insight. You are wonderful to work with her after such a harrowing experience. All the best to you both.


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## selzer

I agree also that this dog should not be on the couch ever, and being more conscious of the NILIF may add years to Heidi's life.

I want to say too, as this thread had gotten nasty with good dogs as opposed to bad dogs. Heidi is not a bad dog. This is not her fault. I am not talking about her pain levels or whatever. She is not bad, she is just acting like a dog who believes she is in charge. She is in fact keeping you in line. If this is the prognosis. The blame or fault or whatever if necessary lies in the fact that she is predisposed to being dominant (probably could have been recognized in the litter), and her owners have been allowing her place in the family to be unclear. 

So as the whole family works to change the positions, I think that this should not be done with the idea of punishment or "putting the dog in its place." As you recognise that you have let up on the NILIF, you are definitely on the right path. 

It is unfortunate that it went as far as a bite. But at this point, so long as it is consistant and fair and not punishing, I think you can turn her around. Since it went as far as a bite, I think that seeking confontation is not a good idea, like a Ceasar alpha roll would probably get you bitten, but blocking doorways and going through first, and restricting access to the couch, or immediatly telling her OFF, should be tolerated and do a lot more. 

Again, she is NOT a bad dog. There has just been a breakdown in who is who and the leader needs to remedy that. 

If it is not dominance, but fear, again it is not her fault, and making the rules crystal clear and consistant will help a fearful dog.

Good luck with your girl.


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## Daisy1986

Sounds like you are on the right path. Glad she is in good health. 

Good luck.


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## Bridget

Selzer, thank you for saying that. You are absolutely right that Heidi is not a bad dog, but after something like this happens, it is so hard to convince some people of that.

As for the couch issue, I agree that Heidi should stay off the couch totally, but am unsure after all these years of letting her get up there whether I can keep her off when I'm not in the room. Any ideas for that? Also, should my other dogs who don't have issues and haven't done anything wrong be made to stay off too?


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## selzer

Dogs live in the moment, you can train them to stay off the couch. It is harder to train one dog to stay off and let the others on, especially if she is dominant among the other dogs.

I think that when you increase your NILIF, you should do so with all dogs. Do not look at it as punishing a dog for wrongdoing, the wrong doing is over and done with in the dog's mind. Look at it as improving your leadership in your pack.


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## StGeorgeK9

I always have let my dog up on the couch with me, but when my parents came to visit, of course that isnt acceptable for my mother. Ava learned in a hurry, grandma will not let her on the couch, or any of the furniture, she stayed off the furniture until my parents left.


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## Lauri & The Gang

I disagree with the no couch rule.

The dog likes to sit on the couch. You need to exert more authority over the dog (not physical). What better way then to CONTROL ( not eliminate) one of the dogs pleasures?

The dog ONLY gets to come up on the couch AFTER you are on the couch and settled. The dog MUST perform 2 tasks before being *called* up onto the couch - Sit, Down, whatever they know. The dog is then called up onto the couch - just like any other command you give.

When you leave the couch the DOG leaves the couch. You need to teach the OFF command. At first you can leave a short leash attached to the collar and use it to show her what OFF means.

Once she knows OFF you can then use it as another training exercise that shows your control of her desires. You get on the couch, make her do her tasks then command her up onto the couch. Let her get settled for a few minutes then command her OFF the couch.

If she instantly obeys she gets a GOOD GIRL!!! and then commanded back onto the couch.

If she does NOT obey right away you get up and make her get off the couch, put her in a DOWN STAY and then you get back on the couch and she does NOT. Not until you are ready to get up off the couch for something and then return to it.


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## Deux

Ok, I am going to put on poop deflector here and add my 2 cents.

Have any of you ever seen a GSD snap? Like I mean snap? I have seen it. An attack is when the GSD snaps and tries to kill everything that moves. I mean kill. Just acquire targets to kill and move on the next target? 

I seen the aftermath of an 30 minute attack on my kids and wife. If we did not had a second GSD to step in ( and take on the attacking dog ) I would have had a house full of dead people. 

This was the sweetest, best GSD I ever had that snapped. Her brain broke.
That is PTS attack. 

Everything else is a bad dog training.


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## Jax08

What would cause her to 'snap' like that? It went on for 30 minutes? How utterly terrifying that must have been for your kids and wife.


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## Deux

Over medicated by vet to fix vet's screw up.

She was in a hyper state of *heat* even though she was spayed. For 3 years.

Once there, she couldn't come back from kill mode. Ever. Her brain was broken.

It was a sad ending to a very happy time in our lives.


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## lcht2

> Originally Posted By: BridgetFor the past year or so, Heidi has showed that she does not like for us to put our faces close to her, such as hugging her. Unfortunately my daughter and I have a tendency to be hands on with the dogs, burying our faces in their fur, that sort of thing. The following is what occurred last night:
> 
> Heidi was laying on the couch. I was sitting on the floor below her. I was stroking her shoulder and head, just generally giving her affection. She suddenly lunged and bit my face in several places. It did draw blood and looks ugly, although it isn't serious. I ran to the bathroom to see how bad it was and my husband yelled at Heidi. Afterward Heidi did not seem particularly repentant, although she was back to her gentle self.
> 
> Here is my take on this: I was doing something that I know from previous experience makes Heidi uncomfortable, which isn't a good reason for her to bite, but was still foolish and dangerous on my part. I was sitting below her in a position that can hardly be called an "alpha position." I think this was an expression of dominance from Heidi and a reminder that I need to, once again, practice leadership skills with her.
> 
> I would like your more experienced views on this. What is your take on what was going through Heidi's mind? Am I taking this too lightly? What should have been my reaction at the time this occurred?


first of all, why is the dog on the couch and you on the floor?? that would be an issue right there, the dog seeing you as a subordinate. NO DOGS ON THE FURNITURE, BIIIG NO NO! it seems by your story that this dog has been allowed to do as she pleases, am i right? this would be a huge issue and i dont see this as being aggressive, i would call it dominant dog behavior. simple answer..NILIF


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## 3K9Mom

> Originally Posted By: Lauri & The GangI disagree with the no couch rule.
> 
> The dog likes to sit on the couch. You need to exert more authority over the dog (not physical). What better way then to CONTROL ( not eliminate) one of the dogs pleasures?


You're right (of course). What I raised was the issue of consistency -- the idea that Heidi, who seems to have a lot going on, was now supposed to understand the intricacies of when she is allowed on the couch as if by osmosis. 

Osmosis is good in some things (such as water filtration), but training a dog with behavioral issues? Eh, I'm not so sure. What you've explained is TRAINING the dog using the sofa. Another concept entirely. 

I let my dogs on my bed. The rule is, they have to ask and receive permission. Asking is resting his chin on the bed for Celo and Meri stands on her hind paws against the bed. If I say ok, then they're allowed up. If not, then no. And everyone gets off when I say "off." No grumbling, no rearranging themselves hoping I won't notice, no crawling under the covers. Off means off.

I don't believe the whole goofy thing that elevation means dogs don't respect us. This seems to be another one of those rules that came out of the idea that our dogs are basically wolves and our dogs see us as furless wolves that walk weird. It makes sense that the more powerful members of a wolf pack sleep higher, so that they can more easily see what lies beyond the den area to protect the pack. We just don't have the same concerns here. I'm certain that my dogs aren't worried about other predators approaching our lair. Maybe the occasional thunderstorm. But that's it. 

In my experience, consistent rules are easier to follow. They're easier for family members and guests to follow. 

I think that troubled dogs do well with consistent expectations and routine. TRAINING your dog a new programme (a new set of rules for the sofa) falls under that.


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## SuzyE

I have a client whose dog has sent them BOTH to the hospital twice over the last ten years. The first bite I told them everything to do and they didn't.I walked the dog five days a week. I got that dog around the corner and told her life had just gotten different for her with me. I think my words were "you can bite them but you are not going to bite me you little (*&^%" I applied NILF to that dog from that day forward. She has never given me a problem-ever.
as we all know I have a VERY aggressive GSD. Paige has wanted to attack a stranger her whole life.She is the scariest GSD ever and I would bet everything I owned that she wouldn't bite me.If you want to keep that dog I would be like a drill sargent to her. I tell people all the time that when you change your stance they wake up like "oh no she is serious." I get a certain tone in my voice and my dogs knows not to mess with me.
I would be very very very very careful as well, especially if there are kids.That dog would NEVER be on a couch or bed again.


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## IliamnasQuest

I'm coming to this thread way late but I do have a few things to add.

First, although the vet visit didn't show anything, there is a distinct possibility that the newly-seen aggression could be a result of epilepsy. I've seen this firsthand. An epileptic seizure is not necessarily grand mal (thrashing and drooling and all that). An epileptic seizure, in a dog, can manifest in sudden aggressive bursts and then the dog often goes right back to normal without showing any signs that they even realize what they've done. I had an Australian shepherd that went through this. She would go from normal to attack back to normal in a matter of 30 seconds.

I'm not trying to make excuses, just offering another possibility. BUT whatever the cause, the first thing that needs to be done is to make everyone safe. A dog that bites its owner (or in my opinion, anyone without a high level of provocation) has a poorly developed bite inhibition. Bite inhibition is something dogs learn, usually as puppies. Older dogs who bite can be taught a higher level of bite inhibition but it has to be done consistently and by every single person who interacts with that dog. It's a lot of responsibility - however, I've done it and I've helped others do it. 

My 12 year old chow bit me not long after I got her (she was 14 months old). I immediately put her on restriction. No getting on furniture, no treats or petting or attention without earning it, no going through doorways or up stairs in front of me, every bit of food had to be earned (by doing attention or obedience moves or tricks - I literally fed her by hand and she got nothing out of a dish for weeks). Anytime I couldn't watch her, she was confined in an ex-pen (in the living room, so she saw the other dogs being free to interact while she had to stay cooped up). No freedom outdoors - everything on leash - basically she got NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING, for free.

Following an NILIF program is a wonderful step toward teaching a dog that they are not entitled to be the "boss" without resorting to strong-arm tactics. You get inside the head, instead of just forcing the body. But it has to be followed stringently in order to truly work, and too many people fudge it and then complain when their dog continues to boss them around. So if you're going to do it, do it fully. Commit to it.

With the OP's dog, I would also recommend teaching the dog to wear a muzzle. This is a preventative measure that helps provide safety to those who may have to deal with her, but it also teaches the dog that even if they DO try to bite, it's not going to work. Dogs often continue to snap or nip or bite because they've found that it works for them. Nervous? Snap at the person and the person moves away. Feeling crowded or irritated? Nip the person and the person leaves. Biting WORKS because none of us are going to stay there and continue to get bit! By wearing a muzzle, you can do what you need to do and not retreat from her if she does try to snap. 

I'm not a big believer in giving my dogs the right to have a lot of personal space. Now, that doesn't mean that I bug my dogs incessantly, or do things that they don't like just because I want to do them. But all of my dogs are taught to accept being handled - EVERY part of their body being handled - and touched and tugged and scratched. Feet are handled. Ears and fur are tugged. I stick my fingers in their mouths and ears and armpits. I open their mouths and check their teeth. I tug lightly on tails. I keep my voice very matter-of-fact and add in a "eht eht" if they start to react, and then praise/reward when they don't. Of course I don't start all of this at once and expect miracles - I do a little bit, and another time a little bit, and gradually work up to more invasive things. I'm not trying to torture my dogs, but I do want them to be acceptable of touching that is not intended to create intense pain. Dogs should be able to handle some twinges or hair pulling or pinches without reacting by biting, but it HAS TO BE TAUGHT. 

Now, all this being said, I think it's important that the OP keeps in mind that this is an older dog, with some arthritis that is likely going to make this dog more reactive than the typical dog with arthritis. I wouldn't do anything to aggravate that condition and expect the dog to not react at this point. But all the little things - the NILIF, the confinement, and working on bite inhibition - those should all be done if the dog is going to remain with a family and be at all trustworthy.

CK - your comments on "her brain broke" with your dog - that's kind of what epilepsy is like. The dog's brain doesn't function in a normal, predictable manner and you just can't fix that. Some meds may help for a while, but when a dog seizes they are no longer cognizant of your presence, and biting happens very easily. Sorry to hear that you had a dog that went through such a rough experience, and that your family had to take the brunt of it.

Best of luck to the OP, and you might contact your vet and mention the epilepsy. If you watch your dog, and see times when she suddenly "zones out" for a few seconds, that could be an epileptic seizure. There ARE meds that might help but she needs to be diagnosed first. And there are also meds that help with dogs who have nervous problems. "Doggie downers" might help you with the training, giving her enough control that the training can sink in more easily. I would discuss more with your vet and see what they think.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## StGeorgeK9

> Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuestFirst, although the vet visit didn't show anything, there is a distinct possibility that the newly-seen aggression could be a result of epilepsy. I've seen this firsthand. An epileptic seizure is not necessarily grand mal (thrashing and drooling and all that). An epileptic seizure, in a dog, can manifest in sudden aggressive bursts and then the dog often goes right back to normal without showing any signs that they even realize what they've done. Melanie and the gang in Alaska


I had a cocker/sheltie mix when I was a kid that developed epilepsy and became aggressive. The agression started and was there for months, then he actually had a noticeable siezure, that is when he was diagnosed. He was about 7 years old when this developed, before he was a happy dog, then he would just snap from time to time.


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## WayneMeganGSD

My dog has bitten me once before when he was sleeping. I'm not sure why, but the thing to keep in mind isvthat dogs are animals, and even though they aren't wild beasts they still react on an instinctual basis.


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## robpethers

As expected this has been an interesting thread. The OP is lucky it was her and not a freind or guest, better check your homeowners policy. I will not put up with a dog biting for any reason, however, this was not a bite by my definition. A GSD bites with tremendous force using the full mouth, things break, die or are pemanantly disfigured. I know a trainer who got cornered once in a small room with no way out, the dog was in full attack mode and she said at that moment she knew she was gonna die, lucky for one of her dogs broke through it crate to protect her, both dogs never saw another sunrise, very sad. She has been training mostly GSDs for 20 yrs in obediance, Gaurd/attack [cant remember spelling of actual word] police, search and rescue ect. I've seen her handle alot of rough situations. I am going to say something that she told me and I also heard from a horse trainer I know who is a man. It is probably not going be well recieved here by some and I know there are exceptions.
Women tend to use more emotion than men, thus they like to think animal have these emotions. I went to a seminar on horse training, something like Non-Resistance training. The guy conducting the seminar [I shall not name] was doing all this touchy, feely, kissy stuff and the audiance was loving it. Wow I can treat my horse like a person or I can act like a horse and he will be my best buddy and love me uncondionally!!! Of the 2000+ people there @ least 1900 were women. I was standing next to one of this guys staff and mentioned this and he said that is what they geared for, women love it and they spend mostr of the "horse dollars". The guy next to him, another trainer said " Great, 2000 feel good wanna be horse trainers off a 2hr show." The staff member said yep and probably 1000 trips to the E.R! 
A women a few miles from me owned 5 Enlish Bull Terriers and she subscribed to this type of behaviour. I knew her through a neighbor. These dogs were treated as equals, no gaurd or aggressive training. She had complaints about her dogs barking or chasing people but assured all that they were harmless. They were right up to the day they killed a women, ripping off one her arms and a leg and then killed an elderly man who came to her rescue.
The truth is that these are animals, we do not know to the extent they have feelings or think/reason. We do know that most animals see humans as above them in the food chain, call it fear or respect. This along with our cunning alows us to manipulate their behavior to our needs/wants. I believe it is dangerous to drop this curtain between us and them. You can train animals without using brute force and without dropping this natural barrier. Dogs that have been pals for years will get in a knock down bloody fight, horses regulary kick and bite each other regaurdless of who is alpha. Is this how you want to interact with your pet?!!!


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## Sashmom

Castlemaid said:


> So I'm curious. What would happen to a dog of yours if it did try to bite you for something you would consider minor? How would you deal with it?


I was wondering also


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## milkmoney11

WayneMeganGSD said:


> My dog has bitten me once before when he was sleeping. I'm not sure why, but the thing to keep in mind isvthat dogs are animals, and even though they aren't wild beasts they still react on an instinctual basis.


This is completely true. What often happens is people completely devote their lives to their dogs, training them, loving them, treating them like another member of the family. 

This humanizing of certain emotions that are not possible in dogs is what leads to people looking for a cause that might not be there. 

While I agree, dogs will often lash out if in pain or due to some other misunderstanding, there will be times that some dogs do something completely horrid to their owners because...well...they are simply dogs. It's something that you can't take personally.


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## StGeorgeK9

robpethers said:


> Women tend to use more emotion than men, thus they like to think animal have these emotions.


Really? you seriously believe this?


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## MaggieRoseLee

All you new posters, be aware this thread is a few months old now...


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## milkmoney11

MaggieRoseLee said:


> All you new posters, be aware this thread is a few months old now...


Still very good information for those of us who were not here a few months ago or those who may have missed it the first time around.


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## DianaB

have the vet check for thyroid! The one user may have said "bitch" as in a female dog, not necessarily that she was a bitch... know what I mean?


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## Bridget

I posted yesterday about what I had decided about Heidi. As the aggression had not happened again, my conclusion was that mostly it was an attitude problem with me and not noting signs that she was feeling well. Ironically, when I got home from work yesterday, my husband informed me that Heidi lunged and attempted to bite the neighbor kid, who takes care of her when we are gone. Tyler was just sitting on the couch playing a video game, not interacting with her at all. So, I have been pouring through the responses to this post again. Today, we begin serious NILIF and drill sargeant behavior, as that seems to be the recurring theme. It is truly a matter of life and death now, as I can't keep Heidi if she is a dangerous dog. I honestly thought it was just me she had a problem with, but the stakes have now been raised. Wish us luck.


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## StGeorgeK9

Good luck, IllamasQuest always has great information and advice, I would go back through her response. She obviously has been there and was able to rein in the situation. Keep us posted and i will be sending good thoughts your way as you work through these issues!! It must be scary....


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## ThorDog

Hi Bridget, I am really sorry about what happened. Truth is we can obssess over the incident and really never know what went on inside their heads. I have been going over what happened to us over and over again. This board is great and people can give you lots of different insight from different perspectives. It is really hard to be injured by our four legged companions, emotionally and phisically. I had a GSD for 14 years, Thor, he never bit me, but if he was in a lot of pain he would yelp and then put his mouth on my hand very gently. He had severe arthritis in his old age and I basically carried his back end so he could go potty. We managed his pain with meds since his mind was all there and he was still full of life in him. But he had sensitive areas but never bit anyone when touched. He was a grumpy old man at the end but never agressive towards us. I am glad you got her checked out. The part about going for the kid when he was playing games is scary. I did have a friend who had a Chow that at 6 years old started having seizures which they didn't know at the time, but the dog would not recognize them for a moment and would snap at them. It was heartbreaking and they had to PTS because he was unpredictable. I am no expert, and I hope that your training does take care of her issues but also consider that she could have had a seizure.
I hope you healed well and I am so sorry this happened to you.


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## TxRider

An old thread, but I have seen several things said that I don't see as making much sense.

People have said biting is communication. It certainly is, but it is inappropriate and unacceptable communication.

Body language like avoidance, flight, a whine, a yelp, a gentle mouthing are all also communication and are acceptable.

The question has been asked how would a person handle a dog who decides to bite when handling private parts.

Personally I teach the dog biting is not an appropriate form of communication and not a proper or successful response. It is done throughout the dog's life in all kinds of situations and by reinforcing proper responses through play and other interaction such as during desensitizing for touching anywhere, puling thorns from paws etc. and not allowing improper ones to be reinforced by me, or self reinforced by success.

If my dog was to bite me the very last thing I would do is pull back and allow that behavior to succeed. And it's about the only situation I would apply physical positive punishment. Aggression is not allowed nor tolerated.

The exception would be a dog as described above who has such a medical issue that the dog was truly out of it's mind and did not even recognize me.

That kind of bond and trust has allowed for me to do things like stitch up a large gash in my dog's back when there was no way to get to a vet with her laying across my lap with a standard needle and thread and alcohol without getting bitten. She could avoid, yelp, whine, even grab my arm gently but no more.

It allowed me to pick her up and handle her when she jumped a fence and tore two foot long gashes in her belly when it caught the sharp ends of the wire on the top of the fence.

Of my two rescues, after a year one of them is about there, and I trust not to bite me or a vet or a child under almost any circumstance. She actually looks to me for help when she has a painful thorn in her paw for example and does not bite or mouth when I pull it out, though she will yelp.

The other, much more fearful, nervy and prone to fear aggression, who has lunged aggressively at both children and dogs the first month I had her, is coming along well and should get there in a year or two at most.

When a dog doesn't like me touching or handling an area, to me that is simply another opportunity to condition a proper response, and to me it is important to do so for my safety, others safety and my dogs safety and well being.


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## jasonGSD01

OK I have read through the retire threads and I can not believe this dog is not created 24 hours and let out only to eat and go outside on a leash to play and potty then back in. until you decide what to do. If I was reading all the post from the OP and weeding out the trash correctly. This dog has done this 3 times or more? Seriously! this is not the dogs problem this is the owners fault for not being a responable trainer. She even admits that she has not kept on the training. The OP has no one to blame but her. The OP said she can't keep the dog "if" she is a dangerous dog. ARE you kidding me? The GSD IS a dangerous dog and can NOT be trusted. DEAL WITH IT!!!


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## JOSHUA SAMPSON

1 dogs are not people ( and thus don't emote the same way) 
2 a pain reaction from a dog will result in a snap/nip, not a BITE
3 _excluding _a"medical" behavior issue " such as hormone imbalances making dogs extremely aggressive (not pain) a biting dog is challenging for pack leadership period. 
4 dogs don't belong on furniture this is reserved for people and blurs the lines of pack leader, as are people going through doors first and several other behaviors. 
5 dogs with strong pack leaders dont bite (unless there is a strong chemical imbalance.)


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## VegasResident

I have to say that during my entire GSDs life she never bit when in pain and she went through some major medical issues, such as an anal gland abscess followed by PFs that were open for a year until they healed (which we had to treat three times a day) and leg surgery. Even at the end with anal sac adenocarcinoma when the slightest touch brought intense pain, at the most she bucked but never growled, showed teeth or bit.


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## arycrest

VegasResident said:


> I have to say that during my entire GSDs life she never bit when in pain and she went through some major medical issues, such as an anal gland abscess followed by PFs that were open for a year until they healed (which we had to treat three times a day) and leg surgery. Even at the end with anal sac adenocarcinoma when the slightest touch brought intense pain, at the most she bucked but never growled, showed teeth or bit.


Same here. I've been bitten by a WGSD when I was a little kid because I was teasing her (no sympathy from my folks - got in mega trouble for teasing her). We had a Peke who growled at her breeder the day she was born - she attacked anyone any time, but was so small, 4 lbs, she couldn't break skin, she left bloodblisters. And when I adopted Bo he attacked all the Hooligans and mauled my arm within 48 hours after coming to live with us.

Other than these instances, I've owned 1 Cocker, 1 OES, 1 mutt (see above), and 14 GSDs and have never been bitten (except as noted above) or growled at. 

Over the years some of the Hooligans have been in a great deal of pain, extremely/deathly ill, and none have growled or made any attempts to bite.

One excellent example comes to mind. When Ringer was 12 he was suffering from multiple issues with several areas of disc degenerative problems in his back and neck, arthritis, was on pain meds and other meds. One morning he got stuck under the front steps. I had to ask my neighbor to come over and jack up the steps to get him out. I put Ringer on lead and jumped down in the hole (the dogs loved digging there) while my neighbor, who is afraid of the Hooligans, took his lead. I pushed and lifted this painful animal up and out of the hole while my neighbor helped to pull him. Ringer, who was diagnosed with pneumonia after I rushed him up to the vet, never growled, or even gave my neighbor or me an evil eye. He accepted the pain associated with us getting him out of the hole and then lifting him into the van, then being handled by the vet techs who came out to get him out of the van and onto the gurney, and be examined by my vet who had to take chest x-rays. If any dog had an excuse to bite a human being, Ringer did that day.


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## SuzyE

I also believe that the biting is often not taken seriously enough here sometimes. After seeing my client get sued and then have to put her beloved Rottie asleep because of a bite THROUGH the fence I really think we have to take biting seriously.There are a lot of people who want to get bit to sue,believe me. Her dog was court ordered to be PTS. It is almost impossible to win a dog bit case.
There are certain instances where it is truly is an accident. My daughter jumped on my mom's dog when he was sleeping and got bit. I told my parents it was her fault and the dog was a super good dog and begged them to keep him.
However if you have a dog with an ATTITUDE you have to change the dynamics. The dog should never bite you to communicate. My dog Jazmin went thru 6 months of surgeries including an amputaion, I could have never done all that if she were to bite out of pain. My dog had an amputaion, I don't think it gets much more painful than that.
Paige gets real sassy if you try to do anything medical to her but sometimes I have to! She will act a fool but she definetly won't bit me.I hold her snarling for the vet but no way my own dog is going to bit me. I just don't get that, I really don't.


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## VegasResident

SuzyE said:


> However if you have a dog with an ATTITUDE you have to change the dynamics. The dog should never bite you to communicate. My dog Jazmin went thru 6 months of surgeries including an amputaion, I could have never done all that if she were to bite out of pain. My dog had an amputaion, I don't think it gets much more painful than that.
> Paige gets real sassy if you try to do anything medical to her but sometimes I have to! She will act a fool but she definetly won't bit me.I hold her snarling for the vet but no way my own dog is going to bit me. I just don't get that, I really don't.


I am going to agree on all your points. As GSD owners, we are are responsible for our dogs behaviors so we have to be mindful of others that approach our dogs. I have seen many children try to run up and hug a strange GSD and I shudder when I do not see the owner stop it and communicate to the child the proper way to approach a strange dog. 

As Alpha leader to your dog, they should NEVER bite you to communicate. This would never be acceptable within a pack at any time from pack member to leader. 

Throughout my GSD s life I accidentally stood on tail hair that pulled out, caught a snout in a door, administered treatments that I knew hurt and held her through many medical procedures and not once did she ever even show any form of aggression. She stayed subordinate to my direction and most important she TRUSTED me. A dog that trusts its leader should not feel the need to "step in" and use aggression. This is not their job within the pack. 

On the very last day of her life before we had her PTS, she growled for the first time in her life at the vet. I softly corrected her and she immediately stopped.....personally though, had I been her after all the tests and medication we went through during the preceding 3 days, that time I could not blame her for the growl. 

It also told me one thing.....in her heart she was saying "Please no more medical treatment or tests mommy. I don't want the pain". So rather than ask her to endure pain and suffering for an inoperable cancer that we could not treat to any success, we let our baby go....that was the darkest day in my life.


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## DianaB

Bridget said:


> Selzer, thank you for saying that. You are absolutely right that Heidi is not a bad dog, but after something like this happens, it is so hard to convince some people of that.
> 
> As for the couch issue, I agree that Heidi should stay off the couch totally, but am unsure after all these years of letting her get up there whether I can keep her off when I'm not in the room. Any ideas for that? Also, should my other dogs who don't have issues and haven't done anything wrong be made to stay off too?


You can always get an xpen and secure it to the wall around the sofa when you are not home. This will ensure she doesn't get on the sofa. Or crate train (NILIF=have to earn 'freedom' in the house) when you are home. Just a thought.


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## VegasResident

*Couch*

Oddly enough my dog used the couch her entire life. 

However she also fully understood that the couch was mine. 

Generally as soon as I sat on the couch she got off and went to the floor bed unless I told her to stay put for some reason that I needed.

When home I commanded her on and off it as I wished. 

When not home she knew she could rest on it and with her Hip Dyps. it gave her more comfort than anything else we could find.

I have never found the couch to be an issue as long as they know it is not theirs.


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## Lilie

My very first GSD I had as a child never showed any aggression towards anyone with one exception. That was when I was attacked by a man and she saved my life. 

There was even a situation when our neighbor's mentally challenged young man came out of his house with a large knife. He came after me (thinking he was playing a game) and she stood her ground between us. She had to have 97 stitches across her back before the young man's parents could stop him. She NEVER even growled. She knew he didn't know what he was doing. They ended up having to put the young man in a home, but until they did this GSD still allowed him to pet her.


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## JOSHUA SAMPSON

There are *no* *bad* *dogs*:angel::gsdhead::halogsd:uppy::gsdsit::doggieplayball: 

:angryfire::nono::thinking::thumbsdownnly *bad* owners
:hammer:


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## Panda

Lilie said:


> My very first GSD I had as a child never showed any aggression towards anyone with one exception. That was when I was attacked by a man and she saved my life.
> 
> There was even a situation when our neighbor's mentally challenged young man came out of his house with a large knife. He came after me (thinking he was playing a game) and she stood her ground between us. She had to have 97 stitches across her back before the young man's parents could stop him. She NEVER even growled. She knew he didn't know what he was doing. They ended up having to put the young man in a home, but until they did this GSD still allowed him to pet her.


Wow what a great dog!  I hope when I get a GSD it will have a persoality like that.


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## valreegrl

I have to agree with the last few posts. 
Timber had HOD, which is VERY painful. So painful, that in the beginning they thought all 4 legs were affected because the pain was radiating throughout his entire body. 
He never snapped, growled or even took a misstep in the process. His tail was wagging for most of the time. 
I have also shut his tail in the door....which I felt terrible about, but again....nothing. 
(It seems as if it is unusually long and always in the way!) 

He is, however, a couch potato  
However, I have practiced off and on and can give him the off command at any time and he will get down. I feel as long as he understands that I control the couch time, he can lay on it. 

But, we do this with everything in his life. I control feedings, outside, leash time, play time, etc. 

Bites, at any time, are unacceptable. I am not talking about mouthing (which is also unacceptable in my home, but happens during excitement and gets an immediate correction and removal. At 8 months, he is not perfect by any means!)
But biting needs to be addressed. 

Do you have a good behaviorist in your area? If it were me, I would get on top of this immediately. You may just need to make minor adjustments in your life, but it will be well worth it in the end to have a well adjusted and happy dog.


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