# Trading puppies at obedience class - Dante was terrified



## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

Just want to say first off, this is a great training school. I think the exercise is a good exercise and very "telling" of a dog. We knew Dante was weak nerved when we adopted him - he spooks at loud noises and doesn't recover quickly, he's very scared in new situations, etc.

He is socialized constantly (we're familiar with socialization) and has made great progress. Now he will greet people in stores, is walks nicely on a leash in various stores and places, he's turning out to be an awesome dog.

His obedience is fantastic, far superior than any puppy I've personally worked with.

HOWEVER, as a class we did a new exercise today in which you traded puppies with each whistle blow. Fun exercise and good socialization. We were to greet them, offer treat, and then do basic obedience and walking around. I worked with 3 other puppies and they all did awesome.

In the glaces at Dante he was TERRIFED. My SO was there and I asked him to watch Dante while I worked with the ones I was working with, so he could relay how Dante did and if he got any better as the whistles went on.

He actually got worse as time went on. After the exercise, he was shaking and difficult to get focused. He was used as a demo puppy in an earlier class, and you'd think he didn't have a lick of training because he is so scared to work with someone other than me or my SO. He will greet them, but is too scared and unfocused to work with them. He was literally lungeing at the end of his leash trying to get away from other people.

Suggestions? Thoughts from other Malinois owners? Will your dog work with someone else? I know they are more sensitive than shepherds, but WOW. I was really surprised at just how bad his reaction was given how great he's been at overcoming fears.

It's sad to see the difference in what GOOD NERVE does to a dog vs one with week nerves. I love my boy and don't expect him to be a schutzhund dog, but would like to know what the realistic chance is of him overcoming to some extent (through training and socialization) the severe spook reactions and being so scared of being handled by someone other than my SO and I.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

I'm all for handing off my puppy to another person and having them either just hang on to them or walk them around as he will need to be able to do this calmly as he gets older, but I draw the line on expecting my puppy to do any sort of obedience for anyone else and would flat out refuse to do this. I strongly feel that it's unfair to ask any dog or puppy to do obedience for strangers and if there were corrections involved, I would completely freak out.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Mals definately have their 'quirks", (love them by the way!),,I did this in Masi's puppy class in the beginning, and tho she was "ok" with it, she was definately becoming stressed,,as soon as the trainer saw she was stressing, she handed her back to me.
Which I was getting ready to get her anyhow

I don't think pushing this kind of situation on an already stressy puppy is such a good thing..In fact, I wouldn't do it again..I'd pass on that exercise..

Now if he was ok with it, I'm all for it, but obviously you've been working with him in other situations since there IS a problem, this kind of thing is just not going to do him any good if it stresses him out..

I would skip that part of class, I would continue what your doing out in public and don't 'push' things on him that are going to negatively impact/stress him more than he already is.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

Elaine said:


> if there were corrections involved, I would completely freak out.


No, just basic obedience for a minute or two with each puppy to further socialization.....have them focus and work with someone other than their owner. Not a correction based exercise, it was meant to be a positive training experience but for him it turned out to be anything but, and for me it was pretty distracting trying to work with other dogs when he was so scared.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Rerun said:


> In the glaces at Dante he was TERRIFED. My SO was there and I asked him to watch Dante while I worked with the ones I was working with, so he could relay how Dante did and if he got any better as the whistles went on.
> 
> He actually got worse as time went on. After the exercise, he was shaking and difficult to get focused. He was used as a demo puppy in an earlier class, and you'd think he didn't have a lick of training because he is so scared to work with someone other than me or my SO.


Poor guy. Did the trainer say anything about it? 
He sounds like he's doing so well in other areas I am surprised the trainer didn't have you pull Dante out of the exercise, let him calm down, and then _maybe_ try it again with just one other person. 

Have you ever left the room to see if he acts any differently when you're out of sight? Annie won't happily work for anyone else if she can see my husband or I, but she's fine if she can't see us.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

I haven't left the room and had my SO work him, but I will try that and see how he does. They haven't had me leave the training room to see if he works for anyone else.

I am assuming the trainer noticed (I don't know how anyone could have missed it, especially given how GOOD he is in the actual obedience in the class). He did not say anything about it, and did not suggest me taking him back. In fact, at the end of class when I asked him about it he pushed doggy daycare again and said to just keep at socialization, have him greet a lot of people. He is doing well at that, but getting worse at anyone else handling him for training purposes (trainer worked him in second class and he was very scared but somewhat responsive, this was the 5th class and he did much worse with someone else..).

I am not gung ho about sending him to doggy daycare. Does anyone really think that would help? He is fine with other dogs, I don't see the correlation to be honest.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Did the whistle freak him out, or was he afraid to go to the other people? When we did "pass the puppy" exercises it was in a puppy class, and we all sat in a circle on the floor and just passed our puppy to the person next to us when the trainer said to. No loud whistles, and they weren't expected to do any obedience for the person, it was a handling desensitization exercise. We touched feet, ears, tails, tummies, and muzzles while giving treats. I've never been in a class where we handed the leash off to someone else to work with our dog. 

Poor little guy.  I don't know if daycare would make a bit of difference, but if you're opposed to it, then it doesn't matter - don't let anyone try to coerce you into something you don't want to do, simple as that. Good luck, I hope you get a handle on this, it must be very stressful for him and you too.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

I've never had a dog class where whistles were used. Are they trying to get the dogs used to noises? That's strange. The problem you are going to get is, as Dante freaks out, whoever is holding him is going to try to comfort him, which is totally the wrong thing to do. That will make it worse, and is probably what is happening. 

I would not send him to daycare if that's just going to add stress. And it sounds like it will. 

In class, see if you can skip the passing around part, though, at my club, they do that every class. It's a big part of the socialization. 

Somebody in my last puppy class had a mini-Ausi that was just terrified of being passed around. He never really improved much by the end.

Now MY Malinois was a total basket case in Puppy Kindergarten. She even managed to slip her collar and get away from one woman. I told her, "You lost her, go get her." I was joking. She's 5 years old now. When there are people around, she wants to stick her nose in their pockets, but backs up when they try to pet her. 

Other dogs freak her out. But, other than her little issues, she's great at obedience and agility. She's a good tracker, too, when we have time to practice. I just work with her and keep her out of situations that she finds uncomfortable. So, we often get walks alone together. (Like today.)  She's my early warning dog, because she will bark at the slightest noise in the middle of the night. But not good for staying in motels. 

If noise continues to be an issue, something I've found to work really well is to laugh a little and say something really light, like, "Do you hear that! That's somebody being noisy." I really helped with Doerak's and Ciana's noise issues.


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## Deuce (Oct 14, 2010)

Elaine said:


> I'm all for handing off my puppy to another person and having them either just hang on to them or walk them around as he will need to be able to do this calmly as he gets older, but I draw the line on expecting my puppy to do any sort of obedience for anyone else and would flat out refuse to do this. I strongly feel that it's unfair to ask any dog or puppy to do obedience for strangers and if there were corrections involved, I would completely freak out.


I agree all around.


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## liv (Sep 1, 2010)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> When we did "pass the puppy" exercises it was in a puppy class, and we all sat in a circle on the floor and just passed our puppy to the person next to us when the trainer said to. No loud whistles, and they weren't expected to do any obedience for the person, it was a handling desensitization exercise. We touched feet, ears, tails, tummies, and muzzles while giving treats. I've never been in a class where we handed the leash off to someone else to work with our dog.


This sounds exactly like our puppy class. Being handled by a stranger is obviously something that dogs should be comfortable with, but I can see how being expected to obey and perform for a stranger could be very stressful for a puppy that's is working hard just to be comfortable around people he doesn't know. I do think that if Dante is completely freaked out, you or your SO (or a "stranger" you know and trust, that you have discussed a plan with before hand) should probably be the one handling him - then you can control the situation the way you want to, and you don't have to go back and fix behaviors caused by the way handlers react to him when he's scared.

For the class, if you choose to pass him off, maybe the person could just give him some treats, and a pat if he calms down, but not place any expectations on him - just let him get used to someone else holding the lead before asking him to obey the person.

It sounds like what you have been doing has worked really well for Dante, so if you don't think day care would help, then I wouldn't do it, I personally don't see how it would.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I agree with Elaine as well. Granted I've yet to have a puppy that would freak out with anyone else if I did allow it, but I'm pretty strict about how my dogs are trained and handled, _especially_ as young impressionable puppies. Now I take my puppy all over and he is touched and handled by probably a dozen different people each _day_, but they are not doing obedience and I am right there to decide how close to stay or how far I can move away and how my dog is being handled.

If the puppy freaks out I wouldn't push it, don't do the exercise anymore. I would have taken my puppy back at the first signs of stress and not let it escalate. The puppy class should be very fun and build confidence in the dog. To me that is more important than the actual obedience exercises. It's good to find out the dog's limits but if my puppy was scared and shaking I would *immediately* stop and do something very fun and rewarding for the puppy and sit out that exercise in the future. I don't know about daycare but IMO the solution is not to keep pushing/forcing the issue.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Did the whistle freak him out, or was he afraid to go to the other people?


 It wasn't the whistle, he is used to that. They do work on getting them used to noises, sights, distractions, etc. It is not your usual "puppy playgroup" obedience class. There is a lot of training involved, and controlled socialization, but they do not have any kind of "playgroup" where they are off leash and playing with others.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Pup is four months old. I think he will get better. Bring your SO, and let the pup get handed off. If he is not as bad as last week, let him get handed off two or three times. If he is just as bad, after a minute or so, have SO rescue him and take him over and get him relaxed.

Ask the person you hand him off to, not to do ANY obedience commands with him, just offer a treat and let the pup come to him. 

I think that by not continuing with this exersize, you will be missing out on a good opportunity for socialization. But if the puppy seems just as tramatized, do not make a big deal about it, just come up and take the pup and have him do some exersized for which you can praise and treat.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

Thanks for all the advice. We only have one more puppy class, so I'm hoping that when novice starts this might not be an exercised that is done. If it is, I guess I need to figure out if I want to keep pushing it on him and see if he makes progress or talk to the trainer about an alternate plan (someone suggested having someone just feed him treats, which sounds like a good idea).


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I would keep in mind peeps, this is a Malinois puppy not a gsd..I have many many friends with mals that do sports with them, and frankly, they are wired different. not in a bad way but a way that will challenge you to figure out what the best approach to training is. 

And yes, if you want to continue handing him off, I'd start slowly and stand there, you hand the leash to someone, you treat him, person treats him, you step back, treat him, person treats him, step back some more.. 

I think he sounds like he's doing fine in public with what your doing, and no I wouldn't have another person try obedience on him, just treat treat treat..


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I would keep in mind peeps, this is a Malinois puppy not a gsd..I have many many friends with mals that do sports with them, and frankly, they are wired different. not in a bad way but a way that will challenge you to figure out what the best approach to training is.
> 
> And yes, if you want to continue handing him off, I'd start slowly and stand there, you hand the leash to someone, you treat him, person treats him, you step back, treat him, person treats him, step back some more..
> 
> I think he sounds like he's doing fine in public with what your doing, and no I wouldn't have another person try obedience on him, just treat treat treat..


I agree with this. Part of the reason we love to watch the Mals in OB is because of their reactivity- which I think falls under the umbrella of nerve. You say down and they hit the deck. You say Go and they're there before they know why. But Mals are not exactly known for being Steady Eddie. 

I remember a friend of mine was socializing a Mal puppy and it was walking down Main Street, saw it's reflection in a mirror and decided right then that the puppy in the window needed to die. It freaked out, redirected onto it's handler, and basically had to be snapped out of the situation and given a chance to "reset". After a minute it was like nothing ever happened. 

Mals just seem to have a switch and once it gets flipped you are challenged to figure out how to snap them out of that state of mind. From what I've seen they are not easily redirected once they're fixated. Some dogs I've seen actually need a pretty serious correction to snap them out of their state of mind, followed by rapid feeding/playing focus exercises. 

Do you think maybe a recall game would help? Go get a treat from that person and then come back? I would also try and start it somewhere NOT at training if you can. Truthfully dogs build up associations with places pretty quickly and you might find him a good deal more reluctant to work with other there.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i would definitely pass on that exercise, especially with a nervy puppy, by re-exposing him to stressful situations he will get worse and may end up with more unwanted behavior such as growling or snapping as a way of saying he's uncomfortable...........i know, because i went through this with my young gsd..........in fact we did the same thing in an early class, a young girl 12 years old ended up with Sam which i was very uneasy about, but the trainer was all for it, first lesson learned, go with your gut feeling...anyway, i took another dog and walked away, i was watching this young girl very closely, my pup started getting Very upset, she made things worse by waving her hands in his face saying "its ok Sam" i knew if he stayed with her much longer he was going to end up growling or nipping her because she was a young in-experienced girl...........so i went and took him back.......the trainer really shouldn't have let it happen but alot of trainers think this social thing is good for pups, general pups maybe, but not nervous traited dogs...........So, there is nothing wrong with you passing on this exercise, you have to do whats best for you and your dog, forcing anything on a dog like this only results in more issues.......anytime you feel uncomfortable with an exercise in class, learn to speak up, and if the trainer pushes anything that you are apprehensive about you might want to move on to someone that knows how to properly deal with these issues.....


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

also let your dog get more comfortable and more confidence, then as said above maybe play some one on one games with people/friends etc.........maybe have different people play retrieve games with him, two man recall game with treats etc.........but, never force things, and i think some dogs also get nervous in inclosed areas like inside classes where there are to many things going on in a small space, so top that with trading your nervous dog to someone else is not a good combo........i would try controlled situations outside class first with people you know, then go from there......


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Rerun said:


> Not a correction based exercise,* it was meant to be a positive training experience but for him it turned out to be anything but*, and for me it was pretty distracting trying to work with other dogs when he was so scared.


 You need to listen to you dog. What I put in bold is what you need to keep in mind with whatever you're doing with Dante. If something is supposed to be positive and fun but he makes it clear that it isn't, there is no reason to push it. If you push it, it sort of becomes "anti-socialization" where he is going to learn to be afraid rather than learn to be confident. 

I haven't had a Mal but I've had black Belgians for about 15 years now. Mine have been pretty good but I've worked with a lot of other people's Belgians who have had issues like fear, phobias, reactivity or the such. Belgians can be "quirky" dogs, they tend to be obsessive, easily frustrated and they generally aren't as forgiving as many GSDs are of training or socialization errors.

I have had to urge people with Belgian puppies of all varieties to avoid group play with them in puppy class if it becomes obvious at any time that it was not a positive experience for the dogs. While some Belgians are ok with it, some get worried and try to avoid the other puppies and others may become over over stimulated, chasing, barking and grabbing at the other puppies. Many Belgians dislike other dogs invading their personal space and group play with pushy dogs can teach them to have less tolerance for it and that they should be quick to react to keep other dogs away. 

I understand that there is no group play in your puppy class but it sounds like the puppy switch exercise is having a similar effect on Dante as group play does on some Belgian puppies. I would just take him aside during this exercise and work on his focus on you. There is really no reason that he has to learn to work for and focus on other people. I don't think the exercise is necessarily a bad one, as long as everyone's having fun. I do wonder why the instructor didn't notice what was going on with Dante and have you do something else with him.

Are you on any of the Belgian discussion lists/forums? 

SitStay Belgian Forums, All varieties (aka Planet Belgian)
SitStay Dog Run • View forum - Belgian Shepherds

Belg-L, All varieties email list
Join Belg-L - a Four Variety Belgian E-Mail List


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

Thank you for the links on the forums, I will check them out. I didn't know there were Belgian specific forums. We will talk to the instructor before class (this next class is his last puppy class, but he starts Novice the week after after puppy graduation). I want to ensure this isn't a Novice class exercise as well, and I don't want to put him through the exercise again in case it happens in the last puppy class.

The instructor is very good, he is a schutzhund guy and GSD breeder, I assume he has exerience with Mals. I will talk to him about our concerns with this particular exercise and go from there. He is a good guy, should be pretty receptive. He did advise me not to coddle him, and said he hadn't seen me doing so, so I think he does have experience with this. However, one of the women who handled him in the trading exercise sat on the floor and petted him when he started freaking out, so I'm guessing that probably wasn't the right thing to do although she was surely attempting to just calm him and not ask him to work for her.

The difficult thing with asking people to just feed treats is that this exercise happens FAST (maybe a minute or two with each dog) and you switch from dogs you don't know to dogs you don't know. Dante doesn't come back to me before he goes to person 3, 4, etc. So it might turn into a game of "telephone" trying to relay the message of "don't coddle, don't ask him to perform obedience wise, just feed treats and socialize." Each person would have to tell the next person that.

I think I would like to just keep him with me. It is enough for him right now with that hustle and bustle to just focus on me. Asking him to do it for someone else is too much (for him).


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I would ask your trainer if you could work with ONE person, as in not passing him off around the room..or just do it yourself out in public,,as I said, just hand them the leash and you stay right there, both of you treat him, maybe take a step back,,both treat, take back the leash and move on..that kind of thing.

I honestly wouldn't pass him from person to person and I'm sure your trainer will be receptive to what you 'want', atleast he should be

He's about 4mths old right? so still very much a baby, and gosh those boys can be such drama queens) and I do agree with in the end, going with what HE is comfortable with.

Ok, did you post a pic of the little maligator?? I missed it if you did and would love to see him !!


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

Thanks again, and yes he's right at 4 months old. 

There are a few pic threads of him floating around but here's the most recent 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/pictures-pictures-pictures/145227-we-adopted-fruit-bat.html


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Rerun said:


> I think I would like to just keep him with me. It is enough for him right now with that hustle and bustle to just focus on me. Asking him to do it for someone else is too much (for him).


Why don't you do that then? Just tell the instructor that you're going to sit this exercise out and work with him yourself while everyone else passes their dogs around. If he's clearly uncomfortable that's what I'd do.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Why don't you do that then? Just tell the instructor that you're going to sit this exercise out and work with him yourself while everyone else passes their dogs around. If he's clearly uncomfortable that's what I'd do.


I didn't do it at the time because I didn't want the trainer, who I respect, to think I was questioning his training (the other puppies all did really good = some better than others of course). I was willing to give it a shot, but everyone helped confirm the concerns I had about how bad of a reaction he had, especially because he got worse and not better by the end of the exercise. I let my boy down.  

The trainer is a good guy, so hopefully he will understand my concerns. My SO and I talked things over and we'll talk to him before the last class starts so we don't cause a scene if the exercise starts and we have to say something then.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Don't beat yourself up over it. You tried it, and now you know it might not be a good idea to do it again, at least for awhile. :shrug: Really, a good trainer will let you skip exercises you're not comfortable doing, for whatever reason. You shouldn't need to make a big deal about it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Yes, I understand this is a malinois, but this is a shepherd board, and sheps are all I know, really.

With sheps, they can be pretty freaky the first time they do this exersize. It is humbling for the owners because there puppy is out there wanting NONE of ANYONE, while the little terriers are practically peeing themselve wiggling and wagging and licking, and the labs are forging into each new person, and the rest of the dogs are not having kaniption fits about it. 

Week two is usually not as bad, and week three is better. Maybe the puppy is NEVER excited to do this exercise, but it does get easier. I think down the line, the three minute supervised separation in CGC is easier when pups were handed off early.

If malinois are that different, well, it is hard to give good training advice from shepherd owners to dogs that are wired differently.


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

I started an obedience class like this with Madix. He would move along to the nxt person willingly enough but then he would sit and stay and stare at me - nothing to do with them. This is his way of showing that he doesn't want to do what he's being asked and he particularly doesn't want to do it for someone he doesn't know. I dropped out after that class. The trainer I go to all the time (but is 3 hours away) agreed that was not a good place for a puppy like mine. Oh, he's a Dutch Shepherd btw.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

VERY cute puppy,,how'd I miss that? I love mal's, and would have one if I had only one dog, they require alot of work but so much fun


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

selzer said:


> Yes, I understand this is a malinois, but this is a shepherd board, and sheps are all I know, really.
> 
> With sheps, they can be pretty freaky the first time they do this exersize. It is humbling for the owners because there puppy is out there wanting NONE of ANYONE, while the little terriers are practically peeing themselve wiggling and wagging and licking, and the labs are forging into each new person, and the rest of the dogs are not having kaniption fits about it.
> 
> ...


Most of the GSD puppies did well in class.

Malinois are in the shepherd family.

There are a lot of Malinois owners on this forum.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i think gsd's and Mals can have alot of the same funky traits, one being they have weird periods in their youth and can be quirky about others handling them......not saying people other than owners can't handle them, but shouldn't be pushed into doing so, it takes careful handling and observation in these incidences and shouldn't be rushed.............
So, again, if really any dog is totally freaking out when someone else has got them, it does no good at all, not a learning experience or a positive thing.......So, other steps should be taken slowly progressing as the dog can handle it.....i would never set any dog up in such a negative situation if the dogs was totally giving signs they didn't like it, nothing but negative results can happen with that.........And thats really with any dog not just a gsd....some dogs just can't handle being pushed into things and should never be made to.........


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## mroutdoorsman (Oct 4, 2010)

In no way what so ever do I want my dog used to taking commands from someone else but myself. Be it that she is becoming a working dog but still. I am all for her being calm and submissive around someone when I want her to greet them but I also want her to react and be protective when she senses someone doesn't have good intentions.

I understand the socialization aspect of the exercise but in what situation other than being in a family with Wife + Children do you want your dog to take obedience commands from others?


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

unfortunately there are some incidences where most peoples dogs are going to have to listen to others.........What if you are boarding your dog somewhere? or even leaving it with family members or friends? there comes a time in life where everyone is in a situation where someone is going to have to watch your dogs.......i understand there are certain commands in certain training only for the owner to use, but every day commands are going to have to be used by someone else if you leave your dog with them..........otherwise, a person wouldn't ever be able to go away for pleasure, or an emergency situation or whatever because your dog isn't used to understanding that he needs to listen to others as well........my dogs actually respect it when others put them through their Obedience commands, it gives them something to do besides sit there and size them up..........lol


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I have no problem with my dogs taking commands from others. I guess it does not knock down my self esteem if my dog listens to someone else. It certainly does not mean that someone who means me harm is going to get the dog to sit and stay while he does it. 

My point is with GSDs (was going to say sheps, but "malinois are in the shep family"), I would not abandon it, but would back it down a peg. Have them not command the puppy to do anything but just treat, treat, treat. If as some have suggested Malinois are so different, then I cannot really speak to that. 

I think this training tool is very valuable though to most dogs, and if it stresses them initially it is not necessarily a good reason to give it up completely. I mean, leashes can stress a dog, muzzles can stress a dog, head halters can really stress a dog. Training a down in the company of others can stress the dog. Do you just dump all of those by the wayside, along with crate training? I think not. 

I think that you might consider ways to make them less stressful and go slower, use more treats, tone it down. 

But with ANY puppy, if you completely give up on things they are uncomfortable with, I think it may only get harder down the line.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i agree, but also i think the pup may be stressed in the class inviroment........an inside area with to many things going on in a small area.......so, maybe the handler will for now keep her own dog in class, but practice people social skills in an inviroment that is bigger maybe outside, using one person at a time and bulding on that........


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

Rerun, you are describing what Niko went through in his puppy class Exactly as it happened! He was the same way. He HATED to be separated from us and had zero focus during the exercise, and tried desperately to get back to us the whole time. And to make it worse, during free-play time he would not leave us and play, fought off the other puppies, hid behind us... Eventually we were asked to leave him and wait outside, the trainers thought he'd want to play then. Instead he cried and moaned and scratched at the door we'd left from.

This happened week after week and we didn't know any better. I wasn't posting here back then or I would have followed the advice you were given.

BTW, we were also advised to do doggy daycare (offered at the training location, gee whiz) and did that for a few weeks, one day a week. It did nothing helpful and he came home with some more behavioral problems, wired like a cokehead. It was a bad experience all around.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

yep, that is usually the proticol at most training facilities, instead of working the problem through with slow and careful exposure, they usually suggest doggie day care, or the owners leaving the room, which in turn usually causes more stress and anxiety........its Not the answer for an insecure puppy........how is this pup supposed to gain trust in its owners that leave him in an atmosphere he's very uncomfortable in.........you want your pup to learn to trust you and know you will protect him and remove him from stressful situations that he cannot handle successfully, its just a total negative........
this goes back to beware of trainers that are big doggie day care avocates, they treat all dogs as one in the same...........a dog with some insecuritys should never, never be forced into this type of thing if he's showing any signs of stress and anxiety, it only ends up creating more issues.......
Slow, progression even backing up and re-introducing things one at a time etc, gets you alot further than pushing things........
thats why sometimes unless its the right pup class and trainer, your better off doing your own controlled socializing if you have a pup that is real nervous and insecure.......


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

The class I took for years(with multiple dogs) always did this in one of the last classes. The last dog I took through the class was a female Beauceron who did not have issues with being away from me, BUT she did not take a choke correction that was unfairly issued. When she was younger especially, she was likely to growl very loudly if she was corrected and thought is was unfair, so it was with her that I finally learned to motivate a dog in new ways. Anyway, when it came to that class and the instructor told me to switch dogs with someone, I saw that she had pointed to a lady who had a hyper lab who had spent the entire 8 weeks jerk, jerk, jerking on her dog who pretty much ignored her. I flat out refused to trade with her, I just knew she would get the pee scared out of her and accuse my dog of being vicious. Thankfully the instructor realized what my raised eyebrows meant and quickly found a different dog for that lady to trade for while I went into the middle of the group and worked on the down.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

selzer said:


> I think this training tool is very valuable though to most dogs, and if it stresses them initially it is not necessarily a good reason to give it up completely. I mean, leashes can stress a dog, muzzles can stress a dog, head halters can really stress a dog. Training a down in the company of others can stress the dog. Do you just dump all of those by the wayside, along with crate training? I think not.


 That is all a bit different from insisting that the dog go work with other people "for a positive socialization exercise" when the dog is clearly having not having any kind of positive experience. 

Personally, my advice would be the same if it was a GSD puppy or a Golden puppy or any puppy. If the exercise is freaking the puppy out, it's not a positive socialization experience. It would be like attempting to socialize a puppy to kids and allowing the kids to repeatedly scare the dog. It's teaching the puppy something but probably not what you were aiming for. 

From the sounds of it, Dante is being well socialized and is generally pretty accepting of people he meets.


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

selzer said:


> I guess it does not knock down my self esteem if my dog listens to someone else.


This is NOT why I stopped taking Madix. I believe there are other reasons that have been listed.



> I think this training tool is very valuable though to most dogs, and if it stresses them initially it is not necessarily a good reason to give it up completely. I mean, leashes can stress a dog, muzzles can stress a dog, head halters can really stress a dog. Training a down in the company of others can stress the dog. Do you just dump all of those by the wayside, along with crate training? I think not.


Not one of the other things that you listed stressed Madix out, but the class did. People were scared of him. He was 3.5 months old. He would go fine on the lead and sit and down for the person. All without looking at them. He watched me the entire time. He didn't like that I was handling other puppies but did not growl or act naughty. He was stiff and uncomfortable and every person that handled him was afraid of him. When they were released to go back to their owners - the girl he was with actually jumped out of the way so he wouldn't brush her. What he learned from that class? "If I let out a little growl or stare - they'll just let me go back to Mom" that's what he did. He'd wag his tail, all alert, let out a tiny growl or yip, they'd jump back and release his leash and he would come lay down by me - didn't bother the pup I had at all, or even me - just had figured out a way to get out of this game. I did NOT want him learning that was ok, so I pulled him. We did meet and greets one on one without the pressure of a circle and with only dog people that would not ruin what I was teaching (aka growls were ignored and he performed well with that). I think that was 100% justified and my trainer that has known Madix since day 4 agreed completely. Also, I was uncomfortable and I tend to have decent instincts so I went with them. 



AgileGSD said:


> That is all a bit different from insisting that the dog go work with other people "for a positive socialization exercise" when the dog is clearly having not having any kind of positive experience.
> 
> Personally, my advice would be the same if it was a GSD puppy or a Golden puppy or any puppy. If the exercise is freaking the puppy out, it's not a positive socialization experience. It would be like attempting to socialize a puppy to kids and allowing the kids to repeatedly scare the dog. It's teaching the puppy something but probably not what you were aiming for.
> 
> From the sounds of it, Dante is being well socialized and is generally pretty accepting of people he meets.


I completely 100% agree


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i can't imagine anyone being scared of a 3 month old puppy.........unless he was growling at them from the very start, which tells me he was giving warnings that he was very uncomfortable in the first place.............and yes, he learned to do what worked..
in which case should have been recognized in the beginning and i wouldn't have passed him around to others because that just re-inforced his growling.......but, i see he was pulled from the class which is a good call.......we all learn and do what we think is best.........and backing up and just working with dog people is a good idea.......


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## EchoGSD (Mar 12, 2010)

I hand my dog's leash ONLY to people I know and trust. That is a small and sacred group of people I can assure you. My dog depends on me to keep her safe, and she trusts me to do so. That means that _if_ I give her leash to someone, I know that she will be well handled, safe, and secure with that person. I don't hand her leash to strangers, even if they are they class instructor. Can other people approach my dog? Absolutely. Pet her? You bet. Handle her, open her mouth, pick up her feet, touch her tail, and check her ears (ie, as in a vet visit)? Every time. Do I want her to think that she must follow the commands of every person on the planet? Absolutely not.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I have had probably seven of my dogs through classes like this, and they did fine. Of course, they did not make them do obedience commands the first day. Just offered them treats. On the second class they would have the dog sit. The people were not afraid of the puppy, but my puppies while eyes trained on me, did not growl or yip or bark at them. They did pull and try to get back. 

We would go all the way around the circle and everyone would handle each puppy for about a minute and then pass them on. 

I like it because there are men and women, old and young usually and the dog gets handled by them. It was stressful for my pups, but not freaking them out. 

That is why I suggested backing it down a bit, or toning it down. 

I think giving it up completely is a huge mistake and it will be harder down the line for you to do things like the stand for exam in obedience or the three minute separation for a cgc.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I agree to opt out of this exercise. There are plenty of other ways to socialize that won't be terrifying to him. This is not a rescue thing. All of my dogs have been rescues and some have been very insecure. All have been extremely attached to me, listened to only me, etc. but this is different. Mals are handler focused to the extreme and their threshold for certain kinds of stress is very low. Once they go over that threshold they lose it. I don't think it's at all useful to put them in those types of situations. 

Rafi is excellent with other people and animals. When we meet people on walks or we're traveling or whatever I tell him to say hi and he lovingly greets everyone. New experiences don't bother him in the least. Animals of any type are fine. However, if I'm home or we're out somewhere together he absolutely cannot stand being separated from me. He will play with someone else but he constantly checks on me. Even if he's playing with his favorite dog friend in the world, all I have to do is turn and walk away and he will fall in by my side in a millisecond, without a word from me. An exercise like that in a class would go exactly the same way with him: he would end up shaking like a leaf. 

It has taken a _year_ for him to be willing to go outside with my SO in the morning and even then he will run out and pee and then rush back into the house, up the stairs and back into his bed. I remember one time after we had been together for about 6 months my SO tried to take him out to pee in the morning with her dog. Rafi raced back into the bedroom, jumped on the bed and lay on top of me. He doesn't normally even get on the bed but there was no way she was taking him away from me. :silly:

Since he is perfect in every other way and does fine when I leave him home or wherever else I am I just let him be his silly neurotic self.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

again, i think you have to base this on the individual dog and pay attention to the signals they are giving.........certainly a dog that is growling, nipping, freaking out is way past threshold and to continue with any exercise that promotes this behavior is extremely counter productive and very negative........the key is to recognize this early and take whatever steps necessary................

puppy classes aren't for every puppy........smaller situations and careful controlled socializing and slow progressions are much more productive.........


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