# Scolding your dog won't make it feel Guilty



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

There is a good article with that title on the MSN site. A recent study by Cambridge University on emotional capacity and behavior in dogs. Some interesting time frames quoted for "emotional development" in dogs, and just what you are seeing when your puppy/dog "looks guilty" - (it's not what you think and worth a read.

The six month mark is thought provoking.... if this study is true, it would seem that some training methods would be much preferred over others. It would be great to read some thoughts from you all on the results regarding environment and training.


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## Blondi's Revenge (Jan 31, 2015)

Would you be able to provide a link, I wasn't able to find it


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

Scolding Your Dog Won't Make It Feel Guilty


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Wish someone would give me a grant to state the obvious.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Bailiff- BWAHAHAHAHAHA word


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

[url=http://www.MSN.com/en-us/video/browse/scolding-your-dog-wont-make-it-fee-guilty

Is the name. I can't post it as a link. My computer stopped providing that option about 6 mos ago. Bailiff - did you find it?


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## J and J M (Sep 20, 2013)

I walk into the house from the garage and see my dog come slinking by with a guilty walk and look and go straight into his crate. It's not until after I walk around two corners do I see the ness that he's made. It was not my voice or my actions that led to his behavior because I can not see through walls. If not him having some type of guilt or knowledge or self awareness of some wrongdoing then why the guilty look and hide in the crate?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

The dog is able to follow events upstream based on prior experience. A mess gets made you arrive see it and dog gets scolded dog looks guilty. This event repeats a few times. Dog sees mess present you arrive and dog predicts outcome and looks guilty. Just like if you were to take a dog that knows how to sit on command for a treat and you start to nod before you say sit and when the dog does it you treat. The dog very quickly learns to sit on your nod because it predicts the command to sit. The first cue in a sequence of events becomes the one the dog goes off of.

This has been known for decades...someone pay me for saying it anyway! Ill write a paper!


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

J and J M said:


> I walk into the house from the garage and see my dog come slinking by with a guilty walk and look and go straight into his crate. It's not until after I walk around two corners do I see the ness that he's made. It was not my voice or my actions that led to his behavior because I can not see through walls. If not him having some type of guilt or knowledge or self awareness of some wrongdoing then why the guilty look and hide in the crate?


Perhaps Bailiff can help answer this for you.... He is a trainer. This is why I posted it as a topic....


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Baillif said:


> The dog is able to follow events upstream based on prior experience. A mess gets made you arrive see it and dog gets scolded dog looks guilty. This event repeats a few times. Dog sees mess present you arrive and dog predicts outcome and looks guilty. Just like if you were to take a dog that knows how to sit on command for a treat and you start to nod before you say sit and when the dog does it you treat. The dog very quickly learns to sit on your nod because it predicts the command to sit. The first cue in a sequence of events becomes the one the dog goes off of.
> 
> This has been known for decades...someone pay me for saying it anyway! Ill write a paper!


Sorry Bailiff - this isn't a site where you can earn money. As you can see, there those out there that can benefit from this information. There are still many people who have a hard time with training because these basic principals are not known. So share - what should the proper reaction/solution be when an owner comes home to a mess made by the dog????


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Don't do anything. You screwed up by allowing the dog freedom before it was ready. If you cant catch the dog in the act don't bother punishing. If you cant stop the dog from doing it when you aren't around to catch the dog and punish then don't punish then either because it isn't fair or imo ethical to punish a dog for something that will get reinforced for it when you aren't looking. Use a crate or manage the behavior somehow.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Distress, fear and joy. The limit of their emotions. Their emotions stop developing at about 6 months old. It is this 6 month old mark that I am curious about - that is at a fairly important age in training. 

If 6 months is the point at which their emotional development is established, is it an important marker in training? If they are emotionally "undeveloped" prior to 6 months, it would seem that treat training would be more productive than any other method. I know that many don't believe in treat training but, this may be more beneficial prior to 6 mos because they simply don't have the equipment developed enough to work for praise or penalty.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

baillif said:


> wish someone would give me a grant to state the obvious.


lmao


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Nah they learn through pressure just fine pre six month.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Baillif said:


> Don't do anything. You screwed up by allowing the dog freedom before it was ready. If you cant catch the dog in the act don't bother punishing. If you cant stop the dog from doing it when you aren't around to catch the dog and punish then don't punish then either because it isn't fair or imo ethical to punish a dog for something that will get reinforced for it when you aren't looking. Use a crate or manage the behavior somehow.


Thank you!!


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

See ya -


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Also the social puppies will work for party very very early. Crank would do behaviors just for praise and excitement at 8 weeks. Not all dogs value praise the same way, but when it is that or pressure they learn to appreciate it at least as a confirmation they avoided pressure. If it is a decent predictor of a food reward they can be taught to value praise as well.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Baillif said:


> The dog is able to follow events upstream based on prior experience. A mess gets made you arrive see it and dog gets scolded dog looks guilty. This event repeats a few times. Dog sees mess present you arrive and dog predicts outcome and looks guilty. Just like if you were to take a dog that knows how to sit on command for a treat and you start to nod before you say sit and when the dog does it you treat. The dog very quickly learns to sit on your nod because it predicts the command to sit. The first cue in a sequence of events becomes the one the dog goes off of.
> 
> This has been known for decades...someone pay me for saying it anyway! Ill write a paper!


I don't ever scold my dogs if they get into something, because it's not their fault it's mine. Having said that, on occasion when I walk in the house I can tell if someone did something way before I see it. Not all of them, but most of them. Ears are back or they are hiding. There is absolutely no reason for them to behave this way based on previous occasions when nothing was done, unless they know they did wrong. It might not be guilt, but it's something.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Someone maybe not you showed a picture of disapproval or anger or something for something similar at some point in the past.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Baillif said:


> Don't do anything. You screwed up by allowing the dog freedom before it was ready. If you cant catch the dog in the act don't bother punishing. If you cant stop the dog from doing it when you aren't around to catch the dog and punish then don't punish then either because it isn't fair or imo ethical to punish a dog for something that will get reinforced for it when you aren't looking. Use a crate or manage the behavior somehow.


Yes! Owner should start to look guilty. A dog-created-mess is a lesson in training and management for the human.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Who gets paid to do these studies?

Come thru the door, garbage on the floor, dog that DIDN'T do it is cringing. Why? Because she's the smart one. If the Boxer or the mix makes a mess, my shepherds will walk all the way around to the other side of the room to go around it with their ears down.

It's all about the association, not the act.


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## J and J M (Sep 20, 2013)

Baillif said:


> Don't do anything. You screwed up by allowing the dog freedom before it was ready. If you cant catch the dog in the act don't bother punishing. If you cant stop the dog from doing it when you aren't around to catch the dog and punish then don't punish then either because it isn't fair or imo ethical to punish a dog for something that will get reinforced for it when you aren't looking. Use a crate or manage the behavior somehow.


I totally agree. I went to the garage to get something and was there less than one minute. The dog had been constantly supervised without issue for the last month and I felt it was a opportunity to test so I intentionally left a napkin on the coffee table and did not crate the dog. I did not discipline the dog when I saw the mess.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Id have set the dog up before I tested. Video cameras or a peek hole and made the dog think I was omniscient.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Whaddya mean "make the dog think I was omniscient." ? I thought you were trying to make the board members think you were omniscient....


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Dogs often learn they can get away with stuff when we are not present or when we are not looking. If you set situations up where it doesn't seem like you are watching and then correct the dog (especially with e collar) you can get a dog thinking that you being there or not is not a factor in whether or not a particular behavior will turn out badly.

So for example you have a dog that likes to counter surf. Set up a camera set up bait and have a collar on the dog. He goes for it thinking you aren't watching and bam. Unpleasant surprise.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I don't know. I started this thread to try to talk about emotional development in puppies vs training methods prior to 6 mos. I posted it in the puppy behavior category so It would be clear who might be viewing the responses and help them. Apparently, that was overlooked and one post lead to blame placing and instructions to crate your dog or the fault is yours and seconding and thirding and so on. I found the initial responses to this post to be - lacking and thoughtless....not rude - just willy nilly thoughtless

My motivation for posting was this; somewhere, tonight - there were several GSD owners that got home from work and decided their GSD puppy had to go. These puppies had been told or shown clearly when they disobeyed or made a mess that they were not to do that again. Several of these puppies died tonight - in the hands of their owner, through a violent outburst - some, due to the basic lack of understanding of what that puppy was capable of knowing and emotionally responding to.....

Most, to a much lesser degree will exhibit some form of displeasure to a puppy that has not obeyed and express displeasure long after the effective time for correction - however, even though I was sorry this post went South so fast - the one good post I did see - was Bailiff explaining the conditioned reaction "expected results sequence" and how in tune our dogs are with OUR behavior and chain of events so that it only APPEARS to be one thing (like guilt) when they are experiencing something else.....stress/fear non related to the incident....

IMO - it is vital that new GSD owners know that puppies/dogs do not even have the capability to experience guilt AT ALL or even experience a sense of wrongdoing for even minutes after transgressions. Pleasure, stress & fear all all we have.....and only in the moment - nothing else counts.....

Mia Culpa


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

I think the outcome is positive anyways.

Scolding your dog (after an unwanted behavior is exhibited) won't make it feel Guilty, and is pointless, as you train the dog to respond a certain way which isn't productive but, *correcting a dog about to commit unwanted behavior can stop the behavior.

*Remote viewing with e collar correction is a neat way to catch and correct the dog for raiding the trash or counter surfing*. 


*


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

MadLab said:


> I think the outcome is positive anyways.
> 
> Scolding your dog (after an unwanted behavior is exhibited) won't make it feel Guilty, and is pointless, as you train the dog to respond a certain way which isn't productive but, *correcting a dog about to commit unwanted behavior can stop the behavior.
> 
> ...


I think that would be a great way too with a dog. But they are not to be used on puppies from what I understand. It would certainly remove the "waiting till you just left the room for a minute" problem. 

I wonder, do they figure out when the collar is off - no worries and resume the unwanted behavior?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Several ways to deal with that.

If youre dealing with a puppy you can manage. The puppy should be crated or xpenned if you cant watch it to keep it from learning unwanted behavior in the first place so no need to break out collars for that. The dog has to learn that it can do an unwanted behavior. Then if youve been correcting it needs to learn it can do the behavior as long as you are not present. If the dog never learns it can do it without you there you dont have to set a dog up.

Second you never have to take the collar off. Just rotate it. You can also mark the bad behavior enter the picture correct the dog physically and then the dog learns the correction can take place regardless of whether or not a collar is on.

Lots of ways to deal with it. Ecollar is a nice tool but not necessary.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Thanks! I have one issue left with mine. Something she's reverted back to (eating poop). She does this around the corner - the only spot where I do not have her in sight to correct immediately. With the collar, I could easily go into the house and look out the bedroom window to catch her the second she begins. 

I wish they had "rent a collar" for this. I doubt it will take her more than once or twice to get the message.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

It would take more than that probably. Eating poop is a self reinforcing behavior and those are pretty hard to eliminate without consistency over a large period of time. It is possible it never completely vanishes as a behavior.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Baillif said:


> It would take more than that probably. Eating poop is a self reinforcing behavior and those are pretty hard to eliminate without consistency over a large period of time. It is possible it never completely vanishes as a behavior.


Bummer - She doesn't eat much, just a nibble "as a unique breath mint", if you will....:eek She quit for 6 months then started again last week. Winter will be my friend to help with this - she won't have the back door open all day to come and go. I won't leave her unattended in the yard with the door closed so I'll be there every time she's out.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I do not understand the desire people have for a guilty look in a dog. I do not want my dogs to look guilty. Looking guilty just looks like apprehension about what is coming, a reaction to an owner's behavior. Or a response that has been rewarded in the past -- you walk in the room and see the puppy on the dining room table, and you react in fear/worry/etc. and the puppy is filled with uncertainty at which point you laugh at the puppy, go over pick it up and pet him all over. You have effectively taught your puppy to respond to your behavior with the look of guilt. Congratulations! 

Instead of guilt, I want my dogs trained to do something or not to do something. If they do something wrong, I tell them, eh! that's mine. I do not want a guilty look. At best I want the dog to understand that that is off limits. Guilt won't provide that. I don't want them to associate strong negative behavior with something either. I prefer dogs who get it that something is not allowed and willingly accept that without pressing them with fear of repercussions. 

So why is it cute when people see a dog acting guilty. If my dog does that, I get really guilty for behaving like a jerk.


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

Why is it that so many people have problems with their dog?

Maybe some people should just get a cat, just saying. :help:



Kim


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Do you even have a dog?

I like your boys videos but don't see you do much.

Your the mouth piece are you?


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I did a bad bit of training with Summer about the poop eating thing when she was about 6 months old. She made an association with the poop eating thing and coming back in the house and started cringing when she came into the house and looking all kinds of fearful and subordinate. I recognized it right away but it still took me a couple of months to get her to happily come in the house without treats and tons of happy good girl talk. 

I'm glad they give us do overs but man, it sure makes you sorry for a slip up if you know how long it might take to fix.


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

MadLab said:


> Do you even have a dog?
> 
> I like your boys videos but don't see you do much.
> 
> Your the mouth piece are you?


Really quite polite of you eh? 

I currently own 2 Dogs

If you watch the videos you will see me handle a lot of dogs, most of them raised by me as well. This pup (K9 Vader) now an award winning PSD was raised by me, and I 'm in the video with him. So I don't think it's fair to comment like you did, show me some of your work please. 

Or are you a "Mouth Piece" that does not even own a dog ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmfWkn7ykgs

Enjoy the video:hug:

Kim


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

I don't doubt you or anybody else can train a dog but I don't see you actually doing anything in the video clips, so I find it ironic that you are dis respecting others and advising them to own cats rather than dogs.

You can claim to do this and that but the truth seems to be that there are very experienced trainers at Pirates Lair/Canczeck doing the real work.


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

Madlab - here a picture of one of our dogs, gone now 2 years. 

He is also on the cover of this book; [ame]http://www.amazon.com/Wonder-Dogs-German-Shepherd-Films/dp/0980009006[/ame]

And he was the main star (4 of our other dogs appeared in the Movie as well) of this Movie; Ace of Hearts (2008) - IMDb

If you would like more evidence just let me know, thanks

Kim

ps; can't wait to see your videos


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

MadLab said:


> I don't doubt you or anybody else can train a dog but I don't see you actually doing anything in the video clips, so I find it ironic that you are dis respecting others and advising them to own cats rather than dogs.
> 
> You can claim to do this and that but the truth seems to be that there are very experienced trainers at Pirates Lair/Canczeck doing the real work.



LOL, Listen to yourself!! First of all I was not disrespecting anyone, I was making a joke.

Secondly watch the videos again, I'm the one teaching the pup to climb a metal ladder.

My god you really are something. 

How about a picture of me and my Detection Dog winning an Award From the Premier of BC ? Does that count for anything ?


LOL, carry on......and pass the popcorn LOL


Mr. Kim Moore


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

ps- It's spelled _Canczech _

_And Pirates Lair is my nickname, my kennel is Euphoricfx German shepherds_

_Try and get it right next time okay, thanks _

_Kim_


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

LOL

Very sorry Kim.

Where I'm from, Kim is a girls name. Obviously your the real deal alright.

Like your vids anyways, have been checking them for a few years.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

The "mines bigger than yours" contest is out back guys.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Pirates Lair said:


> Why is it that so many people have problems with their dog?
> 
> Maybe some people should just get a cat, just saying. :help:
> 
> ...


 Why is it that some people opt to keep only the 'good' ones? 

Just saying.

My dog is a problem dog. That aside I opted to keep her and work through the problems, not toss her aside and pick a better one. I'm pretty proud of that. 
And she can climb a ladder


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

MadLab said:


> LOL
> 
> Very sorry Kim.
> 
> ...


LOL, I figured that when you said "the boys", where I come from Kim is also a girls name! LOL 

I had some fun with you just in case though...

Having said that, I graduated from Milpitas High School in California, same school as Miami Dolphin Player Kim Bokamper. there is a few of us guys with girly names out there.

No harm, I get it all the time

Have a good day

Kim


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

Stonevintage said:


> The "mines bigger than yours" contest is out back guys.



Really ? I don't recall starting anything but a joke

Kim


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

Sabis mom said:


> Why is it that some people opt to keep only the 'good' ones?
> 
> Just saying.
> 
> ...


Sabis mom - Glad you stuck it out, most problems that people experience are due to their own inexperience and poor foundation work on the part of the breeder.

We start working our pups within days of birth and it makes life simpler for everyone, most importantly the pup.

Finding factual information on a forum is hit and miss, finding a good breeder/trainer is like finding a needle in a haystack! 

IMO, *no puppy should ever have an e-collar or prong collar used on it.*

E-collars and prong collars can cause more harm than good if not used properly and 90% of people don't know how to use them. 

In my experience, the ones that do know how to use them don't use them on pups.

just my opinion.

Kim


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Stonevintage said:


> The "mines bigger than yours" contest is out back guys.


Ahh, nicely done. Bringing it all back on topic _and_ a case study showing scolding does not elicit guilt from trainers of dogs either.

Anyone remember Pat from Saturday Night Live?


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

*For the Record*- No one really owns a cat, you just feed them. 


The picture is of my, now retired PPD Marko and his friend Billy who apparently lives here.



Kim


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> Finding factual information on a forum is hit and miss


I think that depends.

When people persist they usually get the information they want/need.

The fact that people like you get on here is good. But will you stick around in the long run is another matter. Is that information you hold really so important that you will make an effort to communicate it?

Many do simply hit and run. 

People who enjoy the site contribute. 



> finding a good breeder/trainer is like finding a needle in a haystack!


Generally people realize that after they get the dog. They try to find help and fix the issues once they get established and the denial wains. 



> most problems that people experience are due to their own inexperience and poor foundation work on the part of the breeder.


Agreed, I do like your set up with the pups and that is the way it should be done. It doesn't have to be so military orientated but pups should be exposed to surfaces, terrain, noises, heights, ramps, people toys etcetc. Then the breeder can actually gauge the pups temperament and hook up with suitable owner. And the pup is more ready for the big bad world.


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

I don't think our puppy training is Militaristic so to speak. We provide 
our pups with controlled stress, and achievable goals, building their confidence.

I believe all pups should be provided with this type of foundation training because at the time, we don't know if the pup will end up as a pet or a working dog.

If the pup ends up going to a family as a pet we want them to have a great pet who is not afraid of its own shadow, won't run away from home when it hears fireworks or bite someone out of fear.

If the pup is purchased by a Police Department it may be responsible for saving it's handlers life so we want to ensure that it is not afraid of gunfire and more importantly does not associate gunfire with bite work- gunfire neutral. That it will climb metal staircases and run through smoke filled tunnels. We try and picture any scenario the pup might encounter in the future.

If the pup ends up working in the Movie industry (not as exciting as it sounds) it's success will be based on its Foundation work- Simple


In times of stress, people/animals are interchangeable - they revert back to their comfort zone - Fight or Flight.

Properly raised pups will have the confidence from their foundation work to ride out the storm so to speak. 

*I find it criminal that some breeders will tell you that their pups can handle all of these things and the pups never saw outside the whelping box. 

*I know of and recommend several breeders in the U.S. and Europe who raise their pups like we do and I'm sure there are others that I don't know of who also do it.


In any event, controlled stress works in raising any pup, whether its a GSD or a Poodle.

Yes, we sometimes get carried away with our work and do some crazy stuff, but the safety of our pups and dogs remains the number 1 priority. 

Were a bunch of imature guys who love doing stupid (safe) stuff with our dogs and we have a lot of fun doing it. In fact, I don't know of anyone who has as much fun playing with bad ass dogs as we do.

Anyone who properly breeds dogs knows that it takes a tremendous amount of time and if your in it for the money....good luck.

This is my wifes Poodle (raised with Marko from birth) would he actually bite? LOL, I'm thinking No

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhWgO7irwrI

This is Tony Nikl's Min Pin 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWwe-smpa7M


In my opion, all pups should receive the best foundation work possible, that way new/inexperienced owners rarely have problems.

And a message to new/inexperienced dog owners- Assuming that you purchased your pup from a Good Breeder- *Listen to the Advice they give you!* Listening skills is an Art Form un to itself.

JMO

Kim


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

A dog with a genetic problem with nerves, will need all that and more, to have a passable chance to be a decent pet.

A pup with good genetics, good temperament can be taken from the breeder at 8 weeks or 12 weeks, and do just fine. 

One can mask poor temperament by exposing them to all these things so that when the new owner comes and evates the puppies, they can be fooled by a pup that has been conditioned to the types of things people are likely to try with them. 

An eight week old puppy raised by a breeder who handles them daily, feeds and cares for them, gives them space that they need, toys, and keeps the litter together with or without the dam, should be able to give the new owner an appropriate evaluation of the pup's true temperament.


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

selzer said:


> A dog with a genetic problem with nerves, will need all that and more, to have a passable chance to be a decent pet.
> 
> A pup with good genetics, good temperament can be taken from the breeder at 8 weeks or 12 weeks, and do just fine.
> 
> ...



I could not disagree more, , "one cannot mask poor temperament by exposing them to all these things".

I can dress up a pig and put lipstick on it, at the end of the day it is still a Pig! Simple


Kim


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Pirates Lair said:


> I could not disagree more, , "one cannot mask poor temperament by exposing them to all these things".
> 
> I can dress up a pig and put lipstick on it, at the end of the day it is still a Pig! Simple
> 
> ...


uhm, my quote was, "one can mask poor temperament by exposing them..." Poor temperament is poor temperament. It can be masked by conditioning the puppy. But it can't be changed. Temperament isn't black and white, 0 or 10. Your pup could be an 8, but with proper handling, good foundation 8+ or 9, or it can be a 3 and with good foundation maybe a 4, with bad handling 1-2. It is more like a window. Naturally the dog has a temperament potential, and the environment/handling can only affect it so much positive or negative. 

Puppies between 0-8 weeks need unlimited time with their litter. Interaction of the breeder should be positive. Training is left to the new owners, because they have their own style and want the dogs for different things. 

It is kind of like practicing for a temperament test. You can condition your dog to the umbrella test. You can condition the dog to walk over a tarp. You can condition your dog to seeing a jogger jog past, or a bicycle. You can condition a dog to gunshots. But one should not have to condition their dog to pass a TT. Because it doesn't mean you are producing good temperament, it means you are working around the tests.


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

Well, we can dance around this all night, and use different terms to describe what we are trying to explain.

I think it is best to just agree to disagree. 

You raise your pups the way it works for you and I'll continue to raise mine the way it works for me.


Kim


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Selzer, you should create a new thread about that topic (exposing puppies to different things before 8 weeks of age). I've heard breeders I respect with both your opinion on it and PL's opinion. I'd love to hear what different breeders do and why, and maybe even see if there are any scientific studies that breeders use to back up their stance. I'm not a breeder, so my opinion doesn't hold much water. I tend to lean more towards your thoughts on this one (over exposure can cover up temperament issues by conditioning the puppies to hyper stimulation), but like I said....no substantial opinion here. I do think it's a very interesting topic, though.


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