# What color will he be?



## missykel3 (Jul 29, 2011)

So I purchased a puppy who is only 4 weeks old right now, and I will be able to take him home in a month. The sire is a bi color, and the dam is a sable. 

My question is, what do you think my pup will look like? Will he be a traditional black and tan? Is he a bi color (obviously not a true bi-color), or a black and tan with a lot of black content? Just curious, as I am not very knowledgeable about color genetics. Thanks! Pictures attached are of his parents, and of him at 3 weeks old. As you can see he has some brown on the face.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think the pup will favor the sire in coloring. It is very hard to see in the thumbnails, but I do not see penciling on the sire's feet which makes me wonder if he is a blanket. But I am not an expert in that coloring. The puppy looks black and tan, but it is so young that it is really hard to tell. Also small, but the tan on the cheeks, chest and legs makes me thing black and tan, maybe a blanket back, doubt it will be a bi-color. I do not thing sable. My guess black and tan.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

It's hard to tell at that age, but he's definitely not sable, so I'd say either bicolor or black & tan.


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## missykel3 (Jul 29, 2011)

I know he is not sable, but was curious how much black content you think he will have. I wasn't sure if you thought he would get a lot of tan on the face and body, or would he keep his black content. I know some dogs fade as the get older, and some don't. In response to the tarheels on the sire, here is another photo that shows his feet better. It is a link to the photo Thanks


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

The sire is definitely a bicolor. Pup looks black and tan. Impossible to say if he will be saddle or blanket back at this age. He does have a lot of tan already so I'm going to guess he will have a saddle..

My GSD is 2yrs old he is a blanket but he is lightening up a bit so I'm not sure if he will continue and have a saddle or not. Click on his name in my signature you can see how dark he was as a pup compared to now. He is from a bicolor and blk/tan breeding.


I am confused, did you buy this specific puppy at 4wks of age or is this most likely the pup that will be matched to you? 4wks is too early IMO to be picking homes for puppies.


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## missykel3 (Jul 29, 2011)

Sagelfn, that is the pup I reserved for now, but temperament testing will be done when the pup is 6 weeks old. I will then decide if I am happy with that pup, or if I want to move my deposit to a future breeding. I won't get the puppy until he is 8 weeks old regardless. 

I was curious about the color because his sire is a bi color from two sable parents, and his mother is a sable from a blanket back blk/tan sire and sable dam. I was just curious what he 'should' turn out to be...my guess so far is mostly black with some tan markings....like a melanistic black and tan, or blanket back blk/tan. I honestly wasn't expecting there to be traditional black and tan pups from the litter, but genetics can be tricky. Just wanted to see if anyone out there was familiar with color genetics and could give me insight.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

missykel3 said:


> Sagelfn, that is the pup I reserved for now, but temperament testing will be done when the pup is 6 weeks old. I will then decide if I am happy with that pup, or if I want to move my deposit to a future breeding. I won't get the puppy until he is 8 weeks old regardless.
> 
> I was curious about the color because his sire is a bi color from two sable parents, and his mother is a sable from a blanket back blk/tan sire and sable dam. I was just curious what he 'should' turn out to be...my guess so far is mostly black with some tan markings....like a melanistic black and tan, or blanket back blk/tan. I honestly wasn't expecting there to be traditional black and tan pups from the litter, but genetics can be tricky. Just wanted to see if anyone out there was familiar with color genetics and could give me insight.


That is good to hear. I saw you weren't getting him until 8wks but glad that you are not stuck with this puppy if he turns out not to be a good fit due to temperament not color.

I'm totally guessing on his future color only based on him being lighter now than my pup was at 8wks..not very scientific. 

Hopefully someone more versed in genetics sees this thread. To my knowledge (which is limited and probably incorrect) genetically a blanket and a saddle are the same - black and tan - just a different pattern within a color type.

Is this a repeat breeding by chance where you can see what was produced in the past? I'm sure you already thought of that though.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

That's a better photo, I see the penciling on the toes in that one. Kool!


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## missykel3 (Jul 29, 2011)

sagelfn said:


> That is good to hear. I saw you weren't getting him until 8wks but glad that you are not stuck with this puppy if he turns out not to be a good fit due to temperament not color.


Do you have any recommendations as to what I should look for when I go to check him out at 6 weeks? They just had 4 week evaluations--to make sure they are all developing healthy and have no defects. At the 6 week eval, I am going up to see him and make sure he is going to fit what I have planned for him. He is going to be a personal protection dog, and receive professional training. His sire is a certified practical protection dog, and both his sire and dam are Sch III. Is there something that would stick out as an obvious sign not to get him other than shyness or over-exuberance, aggressiveness, etc.?


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

missykel3 said:


> Do you have any recommendations as to what I should look for when I go to check him out at 6 weeks? They just had 4 week evaluations--to make sure they are all developing healthy and have no defects. At the 6 week eval, I am going up to see him and make sure he is going to fit what I have planned for him. He is going to be a personal protection dog, and receive professional training. His sire is a certified practical protection dog, and both his sire and dam are Sch III. Is there something that would stick out as an obvious sign not to get him other than shyness or over-exuberance, aggressiveness, etc.?


Do you have any experience picking dogs with that type of temperament? And to be clear because people have different definitions for protection work, will this pup actively be trained in protection work (lifetime) or just some basic protection training like bark on command?

Is the breeder involved at all? Most breeders know what you want and match you with the correct dog because they really are the most knowledgeable person having spent 8wks with the pups evaluating them and hopefully have the knowledge to assess drives/temperament properly.

All I can advise you of is some standard tests puppies have to evaluate temperament but I could not tell you what to look for in a future PPD prospect. I'm not even sure you can see that in a baby pup.

I would start a new thread like "picking puppy as protection prospect - what to look for" or something like that.


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## missykel3 (Jul 29, 2011)

Yes, the breeder is going to pick the puppy and make sure that it will match what I am looking for. I just thought I would get a second opinion...I don't have much experience with doing temperament testing on pups, as most of my experience lies with rescue and rehabilitation of adult dogs. The pup has the right genetics, so the rest is up to me to raise it up the right way for what I am doing. Every dog is an individual, and it is up to the owner and trainer to know how to stengthen the weaknesses. It is going to do protection training through the breeder, they do the training at their facility. It won't be done until the pup is an adult and has had all the proper foundation obedience and bite work. I am working with the trainers at the facility, and at home.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Whether he is a saddle-back black and tan or a blanket back or a bicolor will depend on his mother's genes. Were any of the puppies in the litter solid black? If so, she has a black recessive and he is going to be a bicolor like his father.


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## missykel3 (Jul 29, 2011)

SG Oruger the Boom v. Kraftwerk - German Shepherd Dog
Above is his sire's pedigree with pictures. And below is his dam's pedigree with picturesCleo von Steinweiler - working-dog.eu
No puppies in the litter were black. Half the pups are sable, and half the pups are black with tan markings.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

The photos of the dogs in the dam's pedigree seem to be blanket backs, so I'm guessing that's what you'll end up with. We should make a puppy color pool.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I vote for blanket black and tan as well.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

selzer said:


> I vote for blanket black and tan as well.


Agreed.

Sounds like mom doesn't have the black gene (though it's possible--especially if the litter is small), but based on another picture of the mom and the fact that she doesn't seem to have any toemarks, I think it most likely that she is sable with the black-tan recessive, and since he's not a sable, we know he got his mom's bt gene.

He would have gotten either the black gene or the bicolor gene from dad, and the bt gene from mom--making him either black-tan/bicolor or black-tan/black--and in both cases you end up with a blanket back.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

selzer said:


> I vote for blanket black and tan as well.


Same here. I see tan on the cheeks and chest, a likely sign of lightening up.
Should be very nice markings as an adult.


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## missykel3 (Jul 29, 2011)

Thanks guys! I was thinking that a blanket blk/tan was what he would be. I had hoped that he would look bi color like his dad, but color is not my priority, so I am sure he will be great no matter what


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## missykel3 (Jul 29, 2011)

*New pic of the puppy, at 5 weeks old*

Here is a picture of the puppy at 5 weeks.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

He is adorable! :wub: What does the breeder say?


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## missykel3 (Jul 29, 2011)

Here he is at home with the kids! Are those little fading tarheels on his front paws? He is the darkest of the black/brown pups in the litter...most black and darkest pigment. I think he is going to be nice looking as an adult


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## missykel3 (Jul 29, 2011)

sagelfn said:


> He is adorable! :wub: What does the breeder say?


Breeder says he will look the way he does now, with a little more brown on the face, but a lot of black content, with the brown socks he has now. He is obviously not a bicolor, but am pretty confident he will be a blanket back. His colors are very distinct. Although, after a year I am sure we will have a better idea


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