# Working Line health clearances



## Sarah'sSita (Oct 27, 2001)

Anyone know of high quality working line breeders that will have their breeding stock tested for DM using the OFA test? 
you can pm or post

This is a simple, cheap test. Any idea why more breeders aren't testing their breeding stock to help minimize degenerative myelopathy?


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Sarah'sSita said:


> Anyone know of high quality working line breeders that will have their breeding stock tested for DM using the OFA test?
> you can pm or post
> 
> This is a simple, cheap test. Any idea why more breeders aren't testing their breeding stock to help minimize degenerative myelopathy?


Pm sent


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

My girl is from a "backyard" working line breeder. When I got her there were no tests yet but now her parents have good ofa and negative dm.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Sarah'sSita said:


> Anyone know of high quality working line breeders that will have their breeding stock tested for DM using the OFA test?
> you can pm or post
> 
> This is a simple, cheap test. Any idea why more breeders aren't testing their breeding stock to help minimize degenerative myelopathy?


I'd like an answer to that as well


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Not everybody believes in the validity of the test.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

As Xeph said, there is question as to the validity of the test. It is also very new, and more and more breeders are using it each year so I definitely see an increase. However it is only a piece of the puzzle. Good for breeders to gather some additional info to plan breedings, but DM testing alone shouldn't be a primary motivator to doing a breeding. Same for any other one, single trait.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

OFA only recently added this test to their database....there were private labs doing it a few years back. I have done/will do (have the tests just have to get them done) my young dogs....and know that my two young females, Bengal and Kira, are both clears...I think one is done through OFA and the other through a lab....

I am not totally convinced that it is totally reliable....but it was cheap and easy to do -do I think it will help me make decisions for choosing stud dogs? That remains to be seen....I probably would pass on a Pos/Pos....but with a clear female, I can still use a Pos/Clear male without serious doubts....

A friend has a gorgeous Falk v d Wolfen son....beautiful dog, bone, color, head - you'd think he was a DDR dog!!! He is 8 - his dam is an Olex Valsory daughter....these two dogs have been used extensively - as were their sires and their progeny....The Falk son has rapidly progressiing DM.... and you can see that the genes for DM are so so so widespread.....I think I will limit my breeding to at most a male who is Pos/Clear....

Lee


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## Sarah'sSita (Oct 27, 2001)

Right there are concerns about validity of the test, but it is my understanding the more recent OFA test is valid - meaning the results of tests have been reproduced enough to deem it an appropriate measure. It is understood that they are many genetic traits to watch out for, however DM has been partially isolated to a specific KNOWN genetic mutation - unlike many more complicated genetic issues affecting the breed, plus the test is relatively cheap and provides breeders another tool to work with or not. Although risks of genetic "bottleneck" are also concerning, more breeders are using due diligence to develop their own quality working line dogs to be clear of genetic this trait. Perhaps we don't need to throw the baby out with the bath water on this one. Disclaimer - I am not a breeder nor genetics expert by any means. I am curious


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

People still aren't convinced. They even believe that there are different types of DM. GSDs aren't the only breed that can get it. Pembroke Welsh Corgis and Boxers also suffer from it, but it apparently presents differently.


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## Guardyan (Aug 29, 2005)

The following link contains info pertinent to the discussion:

Orthopedic Foundation for Animals

There are dogs that have been found to have DM even though they were DM Clear.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I would never suggest that anyone remove a valuable-genetically- animal from a breeding program due to DM, but having lost a dog to it, I will never go through that again. It is like someone stealing your heart one piece at a time. For me, losing Sabi to it was a traumatic and life changing experience. I see an increase in testing but in my search for a pup I got some downright scary responses from breeders. 
A breeder of 20+ years who has never heard of it?
Since it is a disease that primarily affects pet owners due to late onset, it has been suggested that some breeders simply are not concerned with it.
As to the validity of the test, yes there have been neg dogs that had it, but with the relatively low instance I would be inclined to look to a faulty, single test kit.


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## Guardyan (Aug 29, 2005)

I wonder if they re-tested the DM Clear dogs that were found to have DM?


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## Guardyan (Aug 29, 2005)

Sabis mom - I am truly sorry. How devastating to see your beloved dog suffer from that disease. 

My current dogs are DM Clear or DM Clear by Parentage. (The only exception is Helki she wasn't tested - she was spayed.) I think we will continue to do the test - perhaps the fees will help with further research. 

Here is another link with stats for GSDs tested to date:
Orthopedic Foundation for Animals: Contact Us

52% were clear
32% were carriers
17% were at risk

If we want to eliminate this disease from our breed, the sobering reality is that 49% of dogs carry at least one copy of the gene. 

Just food for thought.


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## John C. (Mar 6, 2013)

As someone whose last GSD had an injured spine that left his rear legs paralyzed for the last 9 months of his life (and who was initially misdiagnosed with DM) I can't understand why a breeder wouldn't start testing. From what I understand, with thoughtful breeding the possibility of any dog coming down with this terrible disease can be virtually eliminated. As a consumer, all other factors being equal, given the choice between a breeder who didn't test, and one who did and charged me $50 more for a puppy, I'd go with the breeder who did the test.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

John C. said:


> As someone whose last GSD had an injured spine that left his rear legs paralyzed for the last 9 months of his life (and who was initially misdiagnosed with DM) I can't understand why a breeder wouldn't start testing. From what I understand, with thoughtful breeding the possibility of any dog coming down with this terrible disease can be virtually eliminated. As a consumer, all other factors being equal, given the choice between a breeder who didn't test, and one who did and charged me $50 more for a puppy, I'd go with the breeder who did the test.


100%! Even knowing that the potential is there is better then being blindsided after 9 or 10 years of loving a dog. I personally will not buy from a breeder who isn't testing. I made a promise to Sabi that I would never stop fighting to have this disease brought to it's knees. The best way to do that is to use my rights as a consumer to go elsewhere. 
It baffles me that a breeder will spend hundreds on x-rays, but not drop 60 bucks for a DM test. Especially since many dogs whose hips or elbows test poorly are never bothered by it, and DM is at this point basically a death sentence.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

[*QUOTE=Guardyan;5532970]Sabis mom - I am truly sorry. How devastating to see your beloved dog suffer from that disease.* 

My current dogs are DM Clear or DM Clear by Parentage. (The only exception is Helki she wasn't tested - she was spayed.) I think we will continue to do the test - perhaps the fees will help with further research. 

Here is another link with stats for GSDs tested to date:
Orthopedic Foundation for Animals: Contact Us

52% were clear
32% were carriers
17% were at risk

If we want to eliminate this disease from our breed, the sobering reality is that 49% of dogs carry at least one copy of the gene. 

Just food for thought.[/QUOTE]

Thank you. Truly. And thank you for testing.


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## Sarah'sSita (Oct 27, 2001)

So how about quality working line breeders who do test for DM in their breeding stock - who knows of any irregardless of the test controversy - some one I know is looking to add a breed worthy high quality puppy to her program - the requirement is parents DM clear. That their prerogative.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

I believe in keeping it simple. Look for Schh3/IPO3 HOT titles, chances are high if dogs have these titles they re pretty much healthy  If not, then walk away, not worth the time.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Packen said:


> I believe in keeping it simple. Look for Schh3/IPO3 HOT titles, chances are high if dogs have these titles they re pretty much healthy  If not, then walk away, not worth the time.


But that's not true. DM typically does not present until the dogs are long past breeding/working/showing age. Which is why many breeders are unconcerned in theory. Most DM dogs live active healthy lives.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

People also mistake "at risk" for "affected". It is not the same thing.

As for retesting a dog that ends up with DM that was said to be clear, you can't. The not true and official way to diagnose DM for sure is after the dog is dead. A necropsy must be performed and the spinal cord tested


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## Guardyan (Aug 29, 2005)

> .As for retesting a dog that ends up with DM that was said to be clear, you can't. The not true and official way to diagnose DM for sure is after the dog is dead. A necropsy must be performed and the spinal cord tested


I meant retest the dogs DNA to make sure they were indeed DM clear and that the samples hadn't been mixed up in the original testing.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Xeph said:


> *People also mistake "at risk" for "affected*". It is not the same thing.
> 
> As for retesting a dog that ends up with DM that was said to be clear, you can't. The not true and official way to diagnose DM for sure is after the dog is dead. A necropsy must be performed and the spinal cord tested


There are three potential results -/- clear, -/+ carrier, +/+ at risk. An at risk dog WILL develop symptoms if it lives long enough.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Packen said:


> I believe in keeping it simple. Look for Schh3/IPO3 HOT titles, chances are high if dogs have these titles they re pretty much healthy  If not, then walk away, not worth the time.


As was mentioned, DM presents long after working age so that sort of thought process is counter productive. What does HOT have to do with health btw?


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

But they have to live long enough to present. There have been "at risk" dogs that lived a normal long life of 12-13 and didn't present with symptoms.

Maybe seems like semantics, but at risk just doesn't mean the same thing to me as affected


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

For the record, all my dogs are tested. Got one carrier and two clears.

Strauss is the carrier, and he has recently (in the last year) started dragging his feet. The vet suggested DM before I told him that Strauss had been tested. The toe dragging is most likely just part of aging. He is 10 after all


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Sarah'sSita said:


> So how about quality working line breeders who do test for DM in their breeding stock - who knows of any irregardless of the test controversy - some one I know is looking to add a breed worthy high quality puppy to her program - the requirement is parents DM clear. That their prerogative.


I have put together a list of breeders who are testing. If you PM me I will give you what I have. It's a pathetically short list though, and other then a handful I haven't interacted with them.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

hunterisgreat said:


> As was mentioned, DM presents long after working age so that sort of thought process is counter productive. What does HOT have to do with health btw?


I like seeing breeders and handlers working, training and titling dogs themselves rather than buying titles so therefore HOT is the key. When you work and trial, it unmasks health issues that may require to stop the training/trailing/titling so typically dogs with health issues do not get to the IPO3 HOT level. Simple.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Packen said:


> I like seeing breeders and handlers working, training and titling dogs themselves rather than buying titles so therefore HOT is the key. When you work and trial, it unmasks health issues that may require to stop the training/trailing/titling so typically dogs with health issues do not get to the IPO3 HOT level. Simple.


That is a good point, but not valid with DM. 
With DM the dogs have NO symptoms or issues, until they do.
Sabi worked with me, day in day out, slept with me, ate with me, lived in my pocket, was never out of my sight. I knew her as well as I know myself. I knew every bruise, scrap, bump and cut that she ever had. 
Understand that this was my partner, responsible for watching my back and making sure I got home every morning. This was a strong, healthy, active dog who I counted on. It would have been much worse then a missed title had I been negligent with her well-being.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Packen said:


> I like seeing breeders and handlers working, training and titling dogs themselves rather than buying titles so therefore HOT is the key. When you work and trial, it unmasks health issues that may require to stop the training/trailing/titling so typically dogs with health issues do not get to the IPO3 HOT level. Simple.


I like seeing it as well, however many kennels have a team approach... with different handlers, trainers, and owner all collaborating on a kennel's dogs.

I get what you're saying though.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Sabis mom said:


> That is a good point, but not valid with DM.


I am sorry but it is very valid. DM can show symptoms around 5 years of age, dogs can get titled till 7-8 years of age. So if a dog develops weakness around 5 years of age and has a BH, how will he/she get to IPO3?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Packen said:


> I am sorry but it is very valid. DM can show symptoms around 5 years of age, dogs can get titled till 7-8 years of age. So if a dog develops weakness around 5 years of age and has a BH, how will he/she get to IPO3?


For a dog to develop symptoms of DM at 5 would be rare. It is a late onset disease, so largely after 8, most often 9-11. I also don't think you understand, once symptoms develop average life expectancy is 12-18 months. Some less, some more. So again titles are of no use. And a majority of dogs pursuing titles are under 5, so using titling as an argument with THIS disease is useless. Sabi was still working at 9, and had no signs of any weakness as any number of persons she helped apprehend can attest to. I know several people who purchased pups from titled parents and later discovered the dogs had DM.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

A sample of 1 is not good statistically. Anyhow, lets agree to disagree.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I have known several titled dogs with late onset DM - and as I said, a friend has a dog just past 8 - a son of Falk v d Wolfen out of an Olex Valsory daughter - with DM.....being titled has nothing to do with whether a dog will have DM or not!

Lee


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## artistikchick (Sep 11, 2015)

*Titled dogs and DM*

In the interest of offering up more information about titled dogs and whether they're likely to have DM or not. We owned V-1 and Spitzen V Rikki v Steffen-Haus
SchH III, Kkl-1a, "a" Normal (ZW 83) DNA VP-1 and lost her at the age of 12 to DM. We also own her son, who is by VA1 (DK) Karats Ulko BHP3,IPO3 Kkl 1. Our poor Rowdy is 8 years old and has advanced DM which seems to be progressing much faster than his Mother's did. We acquired the very best quality we could and have experienced heartbreak because of this insidious disease. We are now waiting for a puppy from a breeder that tests. False readings aside, it's better than playing the odds.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

artistikchick said:


> In the interest of offering up more information about titled dogs and whether they're likely to have DM or not. We owned V-1 and Spitzen V Rikki v Steffen-Haus
> SchH III, Kkl-1a, "a" Normal (ZW 83) DNA VP-1 and lost her at the age of 12 to DM. We also own her son, who is by VA1 (DK) Karats Ulko BHP3,IPO3 Kkl 1. Our poor Rowdy is 8 years old and has advanced DM which seems to be progressing much faster than his Mother's did. We acquired the very best quality we could and have experienced heartbreak because of this insidious disease. We are now waiting for a puppy from a breeder that tests. *False readings aside, it's better than playing the odds.*


I am sorry for your loss, and that Rowdy is now suffering. 
I agree, testing may be 'iffy' but breeding two carriers would be irresponsible. I still think the test results can help possibly reduce the odds...even if it hasn't proven its accuracy.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Interesting discussion.

I agree with Xeph - many are still skeptical about the validity of the test. And when you see a dog test clear and then develop DM that would tend to undermine the validity. Would be a shame to remove a dog from a breeding program due to a test with questionable validity.

Mayhem's breeder is not yet testing. She is still watching the testing data. I was over at her place holding puppies on Saturday and we had this very same discussion. She has never had a dog with DM and to her knowledge none of the dogs she has bred have had it. 

I wonder how many dogs are diagnosed with DM when they really had an injury or Spondylosis? I wonder how many dogs are actually necropsied to find out for sure?


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

...Xeph seems to believe that at the age of 10 if a dog is dragging its feet-well its 10-my hope would be that at 10 a dog is still healthy-maybe just slowing down a bit-I would imagine not many people do necropsy on their dog-I would rather put my money into trying to keep the dog healthy

Just had DM testing done-the vet who suggested it felt that it was pretty accurate for a GSD-will ask him more about it-also went to a teaching hospital


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

and being titled has absolutely nothing to do with DM-lol


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