# Can You Train a Reactive (possibly aggressive) Dog to not be Reactive?



## nowashburn (Jun 6, 2017)

I know there are 100's of posts about dog aggression and or reaction, but here is my story. I'm could really use some insight / advise as I am at a crossroad and have to make a hard decision about my GSD. 

I recused a 3 year old pure bred GSD. Once I get her up to weight and in good health, I started taking her to a VERY reputable trainer in my area. She does great and learns fast. Within a handful of group training classes she can sit, down, place, etc. She is very loyal, always at my side and very good with the wife and kid (3 year old daughter). She is not aggressive towards people at all it seems.

Issue is that I absolutely cannot take this dog anywhere where there might be another dog. She will go bonkers barking, staring, lunging, etc at any other dog, especially one that is running or playing, like at a park. She never snarls or shows teeth however. Ive tried all the methods I've read about... treats, collars, etc, it doesn't matter. I have a friend that spend several days with me and his dog to try to very slowly introduce them. Eventually they got along and by the 3rd day we decided to let them off leash. My dog immediately bit the other dog.  

The reactivity is so bad and she gets channeled in so badly that she has now bit my wife and I while walking her and trying to get to another dog. Mind you, I have full confidence that she wouldn't attack another person, she bit us and drew blood out of pure reaction to just seeing another dog down the street. My wife needed stitches. I understand she didn't mean to attack us, but I also understand that I do not like getting bitten.

The thing that really gets me is that while at training, she is not like this. It's bizarre. I do not mean to sound selfish, but having a dog to me is to enjoy the outdoors, I hike a lot, camp, go to parks, etc where there will be other dogs. This type of behavior removes all of the things I enjoy doing and have enjoyed doing with my previous dogs, who were also mostly Sheps, though mixed. 

I will absolutely not put the dog down, even though she has bitten. I will also not drop her off to a shelter. I am however considering rehoming her (with full disclosure) to someone who may not have as much need for socialization as I do. I care greatly about the dog and have put in a great deal of time and money in her. I decided to do group training with her, as I saw the value in having me also learn how to train the dog and train with her. My previous dogs were just naturally "good" and I never had to get this deep into training. I do enjoy it. I do have the option of putting out an additional $1500+ for a complete board and train, but will that help, or is just how the dog is? Again, the trainer is VERY reputable and known all over the country, I am at least lucky to have this place only 15 mins from my house.

So... in the end, my question is, is this type of behavior able to be trained out? I'd love to hear some success stories. thanks for reading and allowing me to get some of this off of my chest. 
:smile2:


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I routinely get dogs that have this issue. I easily get them to the point where I can walk them and do close passes on other leashed dogs with pretty much zero issue. The problem is generally owner consistency once they get home. The dogs learn they can't do that behavior when around me and generally they do very well for the owner during go homes where we intentionally set up a situation where the dog may launch into that behavior. The problem is at home the owner does have to correct the issue the same way we do and with the same consistency we do or the behavior will start to reoccur as normal again. Most of our clients are able to get it done and have no further issue after a few weeks, but some will get overconfident start to let the behavior slip and it comes back.

It is an easy issue to deal with IMO. The problem is many professional trainers I know are completely crap at dealing with it. If the trainer is as good as you say they should be able to put it in the dogs head it isn't a good idea, and then train you how to make sure the behavior stays gone.


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## nowashburn (Jun 6, 2017)

*Thanks*



Baillif said:


> I routinely get dogs that have this issue. I easily get them to the point where I can walk them and do close passes on other leashed dogs with pretty much zero issue. The problem is generally owner consistency once they get home. The dogs learn they can't do that behavior when around me and generally they do very well for the owner during go homes where we intentionally set up a situation where the dog may launch into that behavior. The problem is at home the owner does have to correct the issue the same way we do and with the same consistency we do or the behavior will start to reoccur as normal again. Most of our clients are able to get it done and have no further issue after a few weeks, but some will get overconfident start to let the behavior slip and it comes back.
> 
> It is an easy issue to deal with IMO. The problem is many professional trainers I know are completely crap at dealing with it. If the trainer is as good as you say they should be able to put it in the dogs head it isn't a good idea, and then train you how to make sure the behavior stays gone.


Thanks, we train through K9 Basics in Cherry Hill, NJ (I do not have permission yet to post a link). I have no complaints with them and have been helpful so far. Perhaps I should try a full on board and train. From what I am gradually learning in the group training I keep on at home and she does well with general obedience.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Nowwashburn, sent you a PM about a similar situation I had with a rescue dog.


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## nowashburn (Jun 6, 2017)

@sunsilver. I got you message, I do not yet have permission to respond. Thanks, your story gives me a lot to think about.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

You're welcome! As I said, I do hope you have a better outcome with your dog! But we don't always get what we wish for... :crying:


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

As baillif said it's often an issue of owner consistency. So the board and train often works and people are excited to have a well mannered dog again but over time the dog has a moment of regression and the owner doesn't handle it right and the dog builds on it. Before you know it you're back at square one or even worse. Rather than board and train if it's feasible id see if you can find a reputable trainer to do one on one in your home or in situations where the dog will be in a position to show her dog aggression. This way the dog learns and you learn how to handle those situations. 

On the downside she may never get over it and because of your lifestyle rehoming her may be the best option for both of you.


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## Dotbat215 (Aug 19, 2015)

A muzzle might be good in the interim. I also have DA pup. I don't know that he will ever be safe around other dogs but I am not one to go into situations where there are other dogs so management is not an issue for me. However, i keep a muzzle handy for when there might be loose dogs.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Strongly agree that one-on-one is much better than board-and-train!

And yes, I'd keep a muzzle handy at all times. You never know when some idiot is going to let their dog off-leash!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am not a fan of e-collars, but I know some folks who work with a reputable trainer and an e-collar, and their formally reactive dog can function in a group of dogs, with the collar on. 

I don't think it is impossible to get a reactive dog to the point of reasonable management. But, your dog is either so driven to attack other dogs, that it will bite you and your wife to get to the other dogs -- that is a little beyond where this dog, who is about 2 was ever at. Or the dog is so fearful of the other dogs -- the barking, lunging, attacking can still be done from a position of fear. 

I guess the question is, do you really need a dog that will run together with other dogs off lead? Everyone has a picture of what they want/need/expect a dog to be. Usually the dog we have varies from our ideal in some ways. We might want a dog that will compete in agility, and we get a dog that has bad hips or elbows, and shouldn't be jumped, and then we have to adjust our plan for the dog.

Some dogs are very social and are easy to take to parades and community events. And some dogs would rather stay at home or in the car. They are just not comfortable at all in those venues. You can try to pound a square peg in a round hole, and you might have some success. But will the dog truly be comfortable. And if people or dogs are likely to get hurt... 

As our dogs mature, a lot of times they do mellow with age. Yes, you have to provide good leadership, training, management etc. But the longer your dog goes between significant incidents, and the more good training, where the communication/trust bond is strengthened, the more relaxed everyone becomes. 

On the other hand, you have a small child -- this really trumps all else. 
You want to take your dog to outdoor areas where there may be dogs.
You want to have friends over with dogs. 
This dog will re-direct aggression, and cause injuries. 

I would probably find her a good home, someone that will continue to work with her and a trainer, so she can go for leashed walks, safely. Someone without children. Else, I think you really have to come to a compromise with what your ideal dog is, and where you need this dog to be. 

The child changes everything for me. Children at 3, need constant supervision and aren't out walking the dog. But they may be with you or your wife while you are walking the dog. She shouldn't witness her dog attacking another dog. At three, she isn't answering the door or running outside to meet a friend or to play in the back yard. At five or six she may be. And it takes only a moment for the dog to slip through and attack another dog walking down the street. 

There is no way to impress upon a young child that if their dog gets loose and attacks another dog, it might be put down. This CAN happen. If someone tries to protect their dog, your dog will likely bite that person in attempts to get to the dog. Sometimes, that is a hit on your home-owner's insurance and maybe a fine, then your HO insurance dumps your policy and you have to scramble. Sometimes courts are involved, and the decision as to what happens to your dog goes out of your hands. And these are the things that small children can't understand until it happens, and then they feel it is their fault. 

If your dog slips out when your kid opens the door and attacks some neighbor walking their Yorkie, and your kid at age 5 or 6 rushes out to pull the dog off, and gets bit, or the neighbor gets bit, or the little dog is seriously injured or killed -- you don't want your kid to go through that.

Kids deserve to have a normal childhood. Owning a dangerous dog changes that for kids. Your dog seems ok with kids, so your kid might be able to have friends over and such. But then you have to worry about your kid and other people's kids making sure the dog will not slip out. Or that no one leaves the gate open. Kids are kids. They are unpredictable, and they may leave a door or gate open.


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

You can manage the reactivity but that demon will always be there. This is not something that is easily coachable on via the internet without being there with you guys and your dog in these moments to see what exactly is going on and how the dog is being handled, there are energies and actions coming from the handling that could be amping the dog up more and sending the wrong signals. 

Invest in a good muzzle, I suggest JAFCO, the dog won't be able to bite through it but can still pant. With my clients who have reactive or DA dogs I always suggest muzzle conditioning for everyone'a safety and to give the owner more confidence when working with their dog. 100% of my training clients have felt relieved when working with their reactive dogs and having the muzzle on. When the clients are better equipped and more empowered and secure, the dog can start to relax and not feed off the edge and nerves. 

You can get the dog to listen to you in a class setting, somewhere there is miscommunication when the dog is back out in its environment. You need to have the attitude that "OK buddy this is your job and you're going to do it" 'not asking, but telling. The more this dog gets to bite the more it's learning to push people around. The bites need to stop now and a muzzle will help. 

I have a people and dog reactive Doberman and tons of videos of how I work attention with her if you want her fb link. Not instructional but you can see what I expect of her.


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## nowashburn (Jun 6, 2017)

Thanks everyone for all the input, I went to a training session last night and had a long talk with the trainer. I explained in detail everything I put in my original post here. The trainer does feel confident that we can continue training and "correct" what I am experiencing. The puzzling thing is that we cannot reproduce this at all at the training facility, as I said before. We tried for about an hour with several dogs, some of which she has never met before. She was absolutely fine, even off leash. The trainer said an aggressive dog (not reactive) wouldn't tolerate the tests we put her through. It is true that she is comfortable at the training facility, even though it is a huge place, with multiple training fields and buildings. As suggested by some of the comments here, the trainer did not recommend Board and Train, as the dog is doing extremely well with our regular group training. The trainer suggested some one-on-one sessions, perhaps even just walking in my neighborhood if needed. They also offer "advanced socialization" sessions.

This all leads us to believe she is reactive, probably fearfully reactive to new environments and situations.

For now, I am going to try a few things based off of the feedback here and from the trainer:

- Buy a dam muzzle. 

- The trainer has specific "advanced pack socialization" sessions, I'm going to go to those.

- There is a "dog daycare" I bring her to from time to time. It wouldn't hurt to drop her off there a couple of times a week for more social interaction. Surprise surprise, she's completely off leash there too with all the dogs.

- Schedule some one-on-one sessions with the trainer. 

In the end, I understand there is no perfect dog. But I think at the very least I need to try these additional steps, I've gotten this far with her and have made so much progress, she was in such bad shape when I got her from the rescue. I do have a limit though and in time if I do not see any positive changes in the dog, I will have to VERY selectively re-home her. It would only be fair to me and the dog to do so if we cannot fit each others lifestyles. Even in her current state she would make a fine dog for someone who doesn't have the social needs as I do. At least if this were to happen, I can say that I "saved" this girl from the rescue, got her in great health, and taught her an acceptable level of obedience. 

Thanks everyone for the feedback and I will keep this post updated with how she / we are doing. Please, keep the feedback / suggestions coming if you have any.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Send me a pm, if you can. I am curious as to your trainer. I live in South Jersey, and know a lot of trainers in this area. Maybe I can help.


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## nowashburn (Jun 6, 2017)

cliffson1 said:


> Send me a pm, if you can. I am curious as to your trainer. I live in South Jersey, and know a lot of trainers in this area. Maybe I can help.


Thanks, I cannot PM yet though as I do not have 5 posts, I can read PM's sent to me however. The trainer is K9 Basics in Vorhees, they seem really great so far.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

First off one on one training sessions for something like this are not an ideal way to fix it. It is best handled by an experienced trainer with good timing in a board and train setting and then transferred to the owner. It is this transferring process that is key. The trainer has to help transfer the knowledge of how and when to correct the dog to the handler. 

The reactivity thing can disappear completely potentially, but it has to be corrected 100% of the time consistently for a period of time before this is going to be the case. In any case it can be reduced to a near zero occurrence fairly easily.

One of the things you have to understand is there is a difference between dog aggression and leash reactivity. Dog behavior happens under specific contexts when certain cues in the environment are met. 






In that case the gate is part of the cue for the aggressive behavior. The dogs rehearsed it through a gate and fence and in the absence of that cue the dogs stop the behavior and go on about their business.






Similar situation here.

Your dog likely has several different cues that lead to him popping off. One is the leash and you being there, the other may be specific dogs or being in a certain area outdoors. The fact you were at the facility and it is so different from the normal context the dog does the behavior might have been enough to stop the dog from displaying the behavior.

The socialization packages while potentially beneficial are not going to stop the behavior itself. It is a practiced operant behavior and the dog will try to carry out the behavior once the conditions for that behavior to become triggered are met.


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## nowashburn (Jun 6, 2017)

Baillif said:


> First off one on one training sessions for something like this are not an ideal way to fix it. It is best handled by an experienced trainer with good timing in a board and train setting and then transferred to the owner. It is this transferring process that is key. The trainer has to help transfer the knowledge of how and when to correct the dog to the handler.
> 
> The reactivity thing can disappear completely potentially, but it has to be corrected 100% of the time consistently for a period of time before this is going to be the case. In any case it can be reduced to a near zero occurrence fairly easily.
> 
> ...


Interesting, thanks for the info. What techniques would the trainer use in this case and what techniques would need to be transferred?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Like Selzer pointed out; the young child would be the deciding factor for me. What was this 'rescue' about? Did she go through a thorough temperament evaluation and if so, did you see the report? Do you know her honest history? Did the rescue appear to be knowledgeable about dog behavior or were they just 'dog lovers'? I think when you have young children you should not take the chance of adopting an adult GSD from a questionable background. She bit because of redirected aggression. It would have been a lot worse if your child had been in her path. I wonder how good your trainer is if you have to ask the forum here. Because of your life style, having a young child and your goals, I would re-home her or return her to the rescue and start with a Labrador pup. It is OK to be honest with yourself and your family and not feel guilty if you decide to re-home her or give her back.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

A "no" marker and a timely e-collar stim during a precursor behavior that indicated the dog was about to launch into the behavior is what I would do. Not sure what they will do.


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## nowashburn (Jun 6, 2017)

wolfy dog said:


> Like Selzer pointed out; the young child would be the deciding factor for me. What was this 'rescue' about? Did she go through a thorough temperament evaluation and if so, did you see the report? Do you know her honest history? Did the rescue appear to be knowledgeable about dog behavior or were they just 'dog lovers'? I think when you have young children you should not take the chance of adopting an adult GSD from a questionable background. She bit because of redirected aggression. It would have been a lot worse if your child had been in her path. I wonder how good your trainer is if you have to ask the forum here. Because of your life style, having a young child and your goals, I would re-home her or return her to the rescue and start with a Labrador pup. It is OK to be honest with yourself and your family and not feel guilty if you decide to re-home her or give her back.



Thanks for the input.

Did she go through a thorough temperament evaluation?
Yes, actually she had to in order to begin training. It went well and as I said, she is off leash with plenty of other dogs at the training facility.

Do you know her honest history?
I mean.. she IS a rescue. There was limited info. The paper she was surrendered with said she had lived with other dogs and children, which made me feel good.

Did the rescue appear to be knowledgeable about dog behavior or were they just 'dog lovers'?
The rescue its self is very well respected and rescues GSD's primarily. They are a real clean shop and do the best they can. I wouldn't fault them for anything.

I wonder how good your trainer is if you have to ask the forum here.
I just wanted to get as much feedback as possible, I respect the trainer. All the feedback has helped.

I appreciate your input, again, and I will consider rehoming her if no progress is made with the feedback I got here and from the trainers. Thanks for the reassurance that I shouldn't guilty for doing so either, its a tough decision. I guess with rescues in general, regardless of breed, you are taking a chance on what you are getting.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I don't advice young families to get a rescue dog for this very reason. Better start with a sound pup from a good breeder or a dog that you have known already to be kinda safe with kids.
I honestly do not understand why people put the safety of their kids in second place.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I would not encourage doggy daycare for a dog with aggression or reactivity issues. 

Dogs are dogs, not furry five year old children. They do not need to learn how to share their toys, and take turns like little kids. They never have to play off-lead with another of their kind. 

They should play with YOU, your family. And YOU can't hold a candle to dogs. So dogs can get really ramped up in a doggy daycare situation, and when they are out of there, they can be frustrated because they cannot get to the other dog or because they are restrained (leash aggression). Totally unnecessary and a LOT of people having trouble with dogs, take their dogs to doggy day care. 

If you look at the wild-canine model, dogs run in groups/packs. The dogs are together 24/7 and most often the pack begins with a mating pair, and they have pups, and before they are quite fully grown, they have another litter of puppies, and there is a hierarchy in place, and everyone has a function, and the pack works. When the pack meets other canines, they generally fight with them. 

They are not programmed to run around with a variety of dogs that they do not live with and that changes all the time. This idea is really one of the worst that someone came up with.


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## nowashburn (Jun 6, 2017)

nowashburn said:


> I know there are 100's of posts about dog aggression and or reaction, but here is my story. I'm could really use some insight / advise as I am at a crossroad and have to make a hard decision about my GSD.
> 
> I recused a 3 year old pure bred GSD. Once I get her up to weight and in good health, I started taking her to a VERY reputable trainer in my area. She does great and learns fast. Within a handful of group training classes she can sit, down, place, etc. She is very loyal, always at my side and very good with the wife and kid (3 year old daughter). She is not aggressive towards people at all it seems.
> 
> ...


*ONGOING EDIT*

I have gotten so much feedback on this though PM's, replies, and even people seeking me out on other forums, that I decided to document whatever it is I end up doing. This is obviously a hot topic not only here on this forum but in general. This is also why I started this post because I could find no answers, people have their stories, and lord knows there are all types of of websites out there with training tips, but no end to end stories, regardless of the outcome. 

Issue is, or at least was for me, is that I for the most part could not find a good well documented end to end story on training the type of reactive aggression I am experiencing, though it is seemingly quite a popular issue. So here it goes. I'm going to try my best on my progress. Mind you, my training methods are what is STRONGLY advised by my trainer, but I am also keeping all of the feedback in mind that i posted here. I might fail, but at least I will have told my story. Isn't that life? So please, keep posting, even if you disagree with some of the methods. We are here to help, after all, right?

Prerequisites:

- Read the full post on my dog, our relationship, and our history.

- I use a Dogtra training collar for obedience (not punishment!) and it works great. 

My dog and I have a routine it is as follows:

- She wakes me up at 5:00am, always did since I rescued her. We play ball in the yard (while I drink coffee) until about 6:30AM. We then walk 2 miles. 

- She either goes to work with me, goes to "dog daycare", or stays home. Shes is excellent and no destructive in the home. 

- We then walk again around 7PM another approx. 2 miles. 

- The dog never goes on the bed or furniture, even when not home

- She knows sit, down, place, and can perform and hold these at a distance with distraction. She can also do cute things... like left and right paws.

- I feed the dog twice a day "Taste of the Wild" and tons of treats in between. She sure as **** ins't hungry. Food is not available all day, only during set times.

^^ This is based on the FAQ I have gotten so far ^^


Here it goes...

DAY 1:

I met with the trainer at length yesterday evening about my issues. They recommended a good ol' choker collar for the reactiveness. Again, she showed zero reactiveness in training and trained really well. Trainer showed me "proper" how to use the collar.

During my morning walk we started to approach another dog. I went on the opposite side of the street, as usual. Her hair was raised, eyes and ears locked, I was prepared for a lunge.. and a lunge did indeed happen. I gave the yank as instructed. The dog backed down and as she usually does when she knows she was bad, looked back at me. I gave her a calming gesture and a pet. Her hair was no longer up and we passed with no further aggression. I was relieved. We passed another dog with no issue. 

During lunch I took her for another walk. she was "alert" (hair raised, locked onto) onto another dog... like a huge mastiff! a slight tug on the collar and she backed off. Maybe she remembered the tug from this morning. We were going the same direction as the mastiff and were in sight of the dog for a while. we ended up passing each other with no issues. 

Our nightly walk we did not encounter any other dogs.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

nowashburn said:


> So... in the end, my question is, is this type of behavior able to be trained out? I'd love to hear some success stories. thanks for reading and allowing me to get some of this off of my chest.
> :smile2:


Hmm ... Bailiff and Cliffson (among others) can speak to this ... more clearly but to me it sounds like a severe case of 
leash Behaviour Aggression.

And most likely you "skipped" the same thing many of us do with Rescues, not needed with most ... more than likely (but with some dogs it is)and then months down the road ... it was 7 or 8 for me with my first OS GSD and then one day out of the Blue ... it was "Game On." Five pack fights and my first trip to the ER for my first stitches ever (breaking up pack fights) and after that ... it was HA ... WTH??? 

That first step is the first link here.:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html

I did not know about it at the time, doing that gives the dog time to adjust to it's new circumstances, I skipped that and that combined with not enough structure for Rocky (Free Roaming) allowed him every opportunity to act a fool! It was a very bad time and when Gunther passed following the last fight (unrelated) I had a lot of resentment towards "Rocky" ... 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7226890-post17.html

So that's what he did and we were constantly fighting and when Gunther passed, I was done! But not quite ... wife said ... pass him on or let it go! So with a big sigh, I let it go and stopped fighting and started thinking ... "out think your dog."

I trained Place for at home (he's still not much of a people fan) and finally started walking him on one. Open Desert can be a disadvantage. Structured walks are important. And I had to find people for him to ignore and instituted the home structure he never had. He started to change for the better but I did not notice. I did not care "you won't bite anyone under my watch dog ... was my only goal" ... and then one day ... this happened.:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/aggression-good-bad-ugly/399905-what-would-my-dog-do.html

I learned a lot with him ... that was 12 years ago ... and Rocky is still here ... we got over it.


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## nowashburn (Jun 6, 2017)

Chip18 said:


> Hmm ... Bailiff and Cliffson (among others) can speak to this ... more clearly but to me it sounds like a severe case of
> leash Behaviour Aggression.
> 
> And most likely you "skipped" the same thing many of us do with Rescues, not needed with most ... more than likely (but with some dogs it is)and then months down the road ... it was 7 or 8 for me with my first OS GSD and then one day out of the Blue ... it was "Game On." Five pack fights and my first trip to the ER for my first stitches ever (breaking up pack fights) and after that ... it was HA ... WTH???
> ...


Thanks for this reply, it is very real and also encouraging.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

The following is meant with respect:


nowashburn said:


> I might fail, but at least I will have told my story. Isn't that life? So please, keep posting, even if you disagree with some of the methods.
> 
> I wonder what you mean by this; having your child bitten in the face, you or your wife bitten or another dog being attacked? Failing is not an option anymore.
> 
> ...



You are putting a lot of work in this dog and you won't know for sure about the results. My only hang up in this is the fact that you have a young child. Imagine if you put the same time and effort in a sound pup, how you very well may end up with a great family dog. If you fail this dog, her chances of a good life are greatly diminished.
Be and keep the others safe;'sorry' always comes too late.
Please keep us posted on how things go.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Any ecollar is NOT punishment! Some uses are, some uses aren't.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I just wanted to back up to where you said the trainer offers pack socialization. if this is the style taught by Heather/Chad and they, Did they learn this directly from Chad Mackin or Heather Beck? If so, it is probably worth your while if the trainer is doing a good job at it.

It's not the same at all as dog daycare or wildly playing groups of dogs.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

cliffson1 said:


> Any ecollar is NOT punishment! Some uses are, some uses aren't.


It is positive punishment: you add a stimulus that the dog doesn't like (the electric stimulus of the collar) to stop unwanted behavior (lunging at dogs) according to the 'operant conditioning' learning theories.
When do you think it is NOT punishment?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> The reactivity is so bad and she gets channeled in so badly that she has now bit my wife and I while walking her and trying to get to another dog. Mind you, I have full confidence that she wouldn't attack another person, she bit us and drew blood out of pure reaction to just seeing another dog down the street. My wife needed stitches. I understand she didn't mean to attack us, but I also understand that I do not like getting bitten.


Something to keep in mind and ask your trainer about. Behavior can be trained, temperament is what it is. Every dog is going to defend itself at some point, what you mentioned here kinda shows you where your dogs point is. With the choke, either way your using it, ask your trainer if maybe waiting for the lunge and then correcting for it is the right approach with her. Make sure you wouldn't be better off pre-empting the lunge with a dog that may bite you. 

Also, have you asked them specifically why the choke and not the e for this? There's plenty of good reasons for either, but one of the benefits of e is that its impersonal in way that can help you avoid conflict with you and get that reaction of defending herself and biting you.


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## nowashburn (Jun 6, 2017)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I just wanted to back up to where you said the trainer offers pack socialization. if this is the style taught by Heather/Chad and they, Did they learn this directly from Chad Mackin or Heather Beck? If so, it is probably worth your while if the trainer is doing a good job at it.
> 
> It's not the same at all as dog daycare or wildly playing groups of dogs.


Thanks, I haven't been to the pack socialization class yet, they are Saturday mornings. I'm going this Saturday and will ask them though!


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## nowashburn (Jun 6, 2017)

Steve Strom said:


> Something to keep in mind and ask your trainer about. Behavior can be trained, temperament is what it is. Every dog is going to defend itself at some point, what you mentioned here kinda shows you where your dogs point is. With the choke, either way your using it, ask your trainer if maybe waiting for the lunge and then correcting for it is the right approach with her. Make sure you wouldn't be better off pre-empting the lunge with a dog that may bite you.
> 
> Also, have you asked them specifically why the choke and not the e for this? There's plenty of good reasons for either, but one of the benefits of e is that its impersonal in way that can help you avoid conflict with you and get that reaction of defending herself and biting you.


Well, during one of her "red zone" reaction incidents, I did try to get her to stop by cranking the dial on the collar pretty darn high, I'm not proud of it. She was so far in the zone it didn't much matter. Perhaps this is why they recommended the choke collar. So far, though on ly a few days, it has worked remarkably well.

I have been trying to post daily updates since this has gained a bit of interest but it seems I can no longer edit my original post to do so. Posting daily updates as scattered individual replies I don't think would be very organized. I messaged a board moderator to see if they will allow me to do this, well see. Anyhow..

On my walk this morning she did very well. I know all of the potential "problem areas" (houses with other dogs, other dog walkers paths, etc) and generally try to avoid them and not set her up for failure, and introduce little by little and ease her into things. I was able to pass by a house with two crazy yappy dogs and a fence that is WAY too close to the side walk and she didn't aggressively react. This was HUGE. Now, she was very aware and alert of the dogs and stared at them, but not even a bark. She's at the dog daycare today and I'm looking forward to our walk tonight.

I'd like to add that she seems to be heeling much better too with the choker, she always walked and heeled fairly well but this has made an improvement. I'm not exactly yanking on the thing very hard either.

One step at a time.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

wolfy dog said:


> It is positive punishment: you add a stimulus that the dog doesn't like (the electric stimulus of the collar) to stop unwanted behavior (lunging at dogs) according to the 'operant conditioning' learning theories.
> When do you think it is NOT punishment?


Ecollars can be used to add positive stim that dogs actively seek and DO like....not saying that this is appropriate for this case....but the blanket statement that" ecollar is punishment " is NOT the only use of ecollar.
In this particular case, it is probably used as a correction ( I'm speculating), but if properly done is a fine tool and use. I don't know if it is improperly being used, but hopefully if he is under direction of experienced trainer in ecollars it is being used properly.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Has your trainer explained a management program to keep you from getting into situations you aren't ready for?

Cranking up an e collar in the middle of a big blow is not a good idea in my opinion.

On the topic of E Collars, Wolfydog, they can be used as positive punishment, or negative reinforcement, and some people use them even more creatively than that but I think those are the two biggies.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

cliffson1 said:


> Ecollars can be used to add positive stim that dogs actively seek and DO like.....


Can you give an example?


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## nowashburn (Jun 6, 2017)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Has your trainer explained a management program to keep you from getting into situations you aren't ready for?
> 
> Cranking up an e collar in the middle of a big blow is not a good idea in my opinion.
> 
> On the topic of E Collars, Wolfydog, they can be used as positive punishment, or negative reinforcement, and some people use them even more creatively than that but I think those are the two biggies.


Has your trainer explained a management program to keep you from getting into situations you aren't ready for?
I said not to crank the e-collar. we have been working with a choker collar instead for this type of situation. Its's only been a few days but as you can read in my updates, it seems to be paying off exceptionally well. I will also be attending their "advanced pack socialization courses". I haven't been yet but have heard great things from other people who attend. There is also a "dog daycare" at the same facility, I have been dropping her off there a couple of times a week to ehlp with socialization. She's off leash all day with handfuls of dogs and does great, which is what made her reactive aggression all the more puzzling to me.

Cranking up an e collar in the middle of a big blow is not a good idea in my opinion.
your right! I did it once because I didn't know what to do. It didnt work and I will not do it again. I also felt awful about it.

Thanks!


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## nowashburn (Jun 6, 2017)

wolfy dog said:


> Can you give an example?


I have no history to get into this debate, but I can tell you that my Dogrta collar goes up to about a setting of 130.. I hit 10 at the most, usually a 5. It's just used for on command reinforcement, particularly off leash at a distance. It works really well.

Again, I have no previous experience to debate, just my two pennies with what I am experiencing. Also, call me crazy, but I tried the collar on myself at 10 and it really wasn't painful, it felt more like a muscle irritation.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Depending on what Dogtra model, I can't usually feel a 10 either. But some dogs are super sensitive and even that could be punishment. Based on what OP said it doesn't sound like that's how it's being used at least primarily. Sounds like negative reinforcement/pressure on until the dog complies but I could be wrong.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Nowashburn, I've always thought the best way to prevent a full-blown lunge and attack was to nip it in the bud. The very second your dog starts to even *look* at the other dog (or whatever the distraction is) you should call the dog's attention back to you by whatever means it takes. It may be just a word, or a treat, or a correction with the collar.

If this can be done, it eliminates the need for a much stronger, harsher correction once the dog has actually lunged, or started to pull towards the distraction!

The dog also learns that the handler has control of the situation, and nothing bad is going to happen if the dog doesn't respond to the perceived threat.

In the case of dogs that find the lunging and barking self-rewarding, it also prevents the dog from getting its reward!

Waiting until the dog has gone red-zone before correcting it makes NO SENSE to me at all!


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## nowashburn (Jun 6, 2017)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Depending on what Dogtra model, I can't usually feel a 10 either. But some dogs are super sensitive and even that could be punishment. Based on what OP said it doesn't sound like that's how it's being used at least primarily. Sounds like negative reinforcement/pressure on until the dog complies but I could be wrong.


Not at all. It is true that ONE TIME I used it as correction for a "red zone" reactive incident. I simply wasn't prepared for it and I didn't know what to do. I already stated that I felt awful about it. It didn't make a lick of difference and it wont happen again. Please read my reply below from another poster. I am correcting this without the e-collar and it is working so far:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-aggressive-dog-not-reactive.html#post8556666


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## nowashburn (Jun 6, 2017)

Sunsilver said:


> Nowashburn, I've always thought the best way to prevent a full-blown lunge and attack was to nip it in the bud. The very second your dog starts to even *look* at the other dog (or whatever the distraction is) you should call the dog's attention back to you by whatever means it takes. It may be just a word, or a treat, or a correction with the collar.
> 
> If this can be done, it eliminates the need for a much stronger, harsher correction once the dog has actually lunged, or started to pull towards the distraction!
> 
> ...


Thank you so much, you are SPOT ON with where I am at now. The trainer recommended a choker in this instance, NOT the e-collar. It seems to be paying off exceptionally so far. If I see an "distraction" coming and she is getting uncomfortable, I reinforce the heel. It keeps her focused on something else. She heels great.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

OP, I was not trying to give you a hard time about using the e collar or how you are using it.... I think we may have miscommunicated


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

nowashburn said:


> I have no history to get into this debate, but I can tell you that my Dogrta collar goes up to about a setting of 130.. I hit 10 at the most, usually a 5. It's just used for on command reinforcement, particularly off leash at a distance. It works really well.
> 
> Again, I have no previous experience to debate, just my two pennies with what I am experiencing. Also, call me crazy, but I tried the collar on myself at 10 and it really wasn't painful, it felt more like a muscle irritation.


A ten ... LOL ... well I don't use a E-Collar myself. I suppose I'm a Buggy Whip kinda guy?? British Slip Lead Leash is my thing, it's all I use. Only thing rescues will let you use ... those guys have no clue. But I like to keep abreast of technology and although, I don't use an E-Collar ... I do understand how they work and how they should be use.

And I know that there are "working levels" and "corrections levels" and only JQP ... worries about the "numbers." Pros that actually work with dogs with serious aggression issues ... don't look at numbers ... they look for effect! And for an effective "Correction" you with a dog in drive ... you have to go well beyond working level! And shoot for effect! Maybe one of them will address that because they seem to be here and I'm merely JQP above average dog guy.

But that said and so you know ... I follow pretty only trainers that only deal with Dogs with serious freaking issues ... Jeff Gellman, Sean O'shea, Tyler Muto, and Larry Krohn to name a few and no one uses a choke chain??? 

And out of those ... it would seem that "Larry Khron" is my "Dog" as it were?? And that is simply because he explained to me how I was able to solve my "Packing Fighting, HA," OS GSD's issues seemingly ... without much out much effort ...* walk your dog. *

Trying to understand how I did what I did is why I got involved "online" I found my answer after a few years ... so I'm kinda sorta done. BoxerForum ... is a lot less eventful. 

That said and so you know ... not every trainer uses an E-Collar to address "Aggression Issues" Larry Krohn, does not and he goes out of his way to "avoid issues" for two weeks in a board and train. He builds a bond first with a client's dogs before addressing issues. And while he trains dogs with an E-Collar" he does not "correct issues" with an E-Collar. He uses a Dominant Dog Collar and for issues it would be a slow, steady upward pressure on the leash, arm straight out in your case (up leash dog) until the dog's front paws just come off the ground ... point made!

Although I have never had to do that ... I could it do with a SLL. The choke chain ... I suppose it works ... but I know of no trainers, today that use one???


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## Irie (Aug 31, 2016)

I adopted a very leash/dog reactive GSD last year.

She would react to dog tag noise and dogs barking in other yards from my own (not fence fighting, farther away). On walks, if a dog was within eyesight, she was throwing a FIT. Just hearing dogs behind a fence would seemingly enrage her. It was ridiculous.

Besides some NILIF and all that, we did a lot of training with positive reinforcement...using markers. I started proofing her obedience to controlled distractions, and that helped a lot. We worked a lot on impulse control, "watch me" and "leave it". Her being able to learn to calm down, use calming signals, and DISENGAGE from conflict changed her world. 

I ended up having a trainer work with us and ecollars, and she can be around a whole group of other dogs without wanting to kill them. It is seriously amazing. She gets a minor "nick" if she starts the chain of behaviors that leads to her aggression. She has even cut out the "bite first, ask later" and instead actually wants to sniff other dogs upon them being near her. That is night and day!

She still loses it sometimes, if other dogs are very excited or are being aggressive at her. This still includes staring, which is still a problem. She HAAAAAAATTEEEESSS when other dogs stare at her!!!!! But, many times she will turn away/engage with me/walk away first. 

Good luck! There are many resources, use them!


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## nowashburn (Jun 6, 2017)

I wished I could of had an easier way to post gradual updates on this, but wanted to let everyone know where I am. Simply put, this dog is amazing and I'm glad I put the time into her. Through the use of the e-collar and continuing with my trainer, this dog has regained her confidence. I ended up sticking with the the old school choker collar as well for the leash "aggressiveness", though I no longer have to use it. 

The dog is no longer aggressive, or even reactive I would say. I can (though I rarely do) bring her to the dog park completely off leash and I have confidence that she will be just fine. She did manage to keep her protective nature to her too, which I like. She's great with my now 3 year old. 

I'm not going to sit here and act like I have a perfect dog, but the turnaround I've seen in her is amazing. I've gotten a lot of responses about this and a lot of people with the same questions I had. Really, I just followed through with my trainers instruction and stayed on it, also eased her into social situations and other dogs. Hope this helps other. Please, continue to PM me or keep this thread going. Thanks for all the answers, replies, and support.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I'm so glad to hear that (a) You stuck with it, choosing training over rehoming, and (b) your dog responded beautifully! Congratulations, I strongly believe from experience that this level of commitment to your dog will be repaid handsomely.

I was drawn to this post due to the issue you brought up, but must admit I was sort of reading along with dread, hoping for a good outcome, but not confident at all that there would be one. I had a very very similar experience with a rescue, a 1 1/2 yr old GSD that hated both other dogs and children initially. I gave her absolute free rein for the first 3 months, making sure to carefully manage the situations we got into. Then I worked with her tirelessly for the next 2 yrs, and she became the best dog I've ever personally known! Totally trustworthy with both kids and dogs...thanks for the update, and again Congratulations!


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## nowashburn (Jun 6, 2017)

I was at the home depot today and got a compliment on how well behaved my dog was around people and other dogs from a person who just had a tough rescue. I thought of this thread. My dog is still going strong and tbh is the best I've ever had. If anyone had followed this, she is doing amazing. For what it's worth proper ecolllar training saved my dogs life.


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## ThomD (Nov 23, 2020)

nowashburn said:


> I know there are 100's of posts about dog aggression and or reaction, but here is my story. I'm could really use some insight / advise as I am at a crossroad and have to make a hard decision about my GSD.
> 
> I recused a 3 year old pure bred GSD. Once I get her up to weight and in good health, I started taking her to a VERY reputable trainer in my area. She does great and learns fast. Within a handful of group training classes she can sit, down, place, etc. She is very loyal, always at my side and very good with the wife and kid (3 year old daughter). She is not aggressive towards people at all it seems.
> 
> ...


This was from three years ago--- what was final outcome?


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## chuckd (Jul 16, 2019)

ThomD said:


> This was from three years ago--- what was final outcome?


That was it. The post above yours. That is the original poster.


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