# What do you think of this breeding? ASL



## Noodles (May 1, 2011)

Puppies Pedigree: Mating test - German Shepherd Dog


Sire: MV/SEL CH (US&CAN) Lindenhill's Hayabusa - German Shepherd Dog

Dam: Lindenhills Voodoo Charm - German Shepherd Dog


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## Noodles (May 1, 2011)

I am contemplating a puppy and would appreciate any advice or foresight.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Beautiful dogs....should be some beautiful puppies.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Too much linebreeding for me, personally. Bred a Yakuza son to a Yakuza granddaughter. I'd certainly be asking about health issues and the like, and what may be compounded on and potentially come through in the puppies,


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Not sure how long this is going to last but it is sure making me chuckle.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

You might want to discuss withnthe breeder where they are going with this breeding. What is the purpose and what do they expect. 

You might want to read about close linebreeding and what that can mean. It can produce, but it aso can result in homogeneity of undesirable genes. I had a dog who was a 2-2 linebreed. In his case, he got a big dose of much that was undesirable in the line. Such breeding can solidify what is good, but it can also really solidify genetically the undesirable recessives. One would want to avoid a pup that got that genetic deal. How would a person know at a young age?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I would say the same thing as Samba . Looks like Lindenhills has a game plan . Ask them what they would suggest . 
Looked into the background as the newer dogs are not familiar to me anymore.
I do have a good resource library - hundreds of issues of the american gsd club's German Shepherd dog Review.

Saw that there is FRACK in the background . I know this dog , saw him many times -- boy was he impressive .
Now look at that pedigree SEL AM CH Frack v Rosshaus - German Shepherd Dog

what is YOUR purpose and plan for the litter ?

You could go back and pull up some of Frack's ancestry , bring in some very nicely structured DDR dogs with Held Ritterberg , bringing in Bernd Lierberg.
Depending on what dog you are using , lets say INT CH - V(US) - Yello vom Haus Iris - German Shepherd Dog Yello or Sando haus Iris - just to show an example of nice structure. You would be shortening the dog up a bit . ASL can be long in the back. 
Looked into the background and see Lamar Kuhns posing Prime time -- a great moving dog. Lamar was always irreverent , great entertainment in the ring . 
For fun go to the third generation and you will see how from that point forward into the current dog that the backs and length is getting longer. You'll see the back on Aspen AM GV CH Aspen of Fran-Jo - German Shepherd Dog
These are the dogs that were running in the rings when I was handling . 
The pedigree has a lot of Lance. A complementary line , which will bring in masculine heads and a firmer body , with good shoulders etc was Yoncalla's Mike, Hollamors Judd . Bel Vista Beau Brummel had the Hessian dogs behind him .

That was the formula which got you SEL CAN & AM CH Winning Ways Chimo - German Shepherd Dog , which if the pedigree were complete on My Girl Bill and Ambergris (Marko Cellerland, Yoncalla Mike) you would see. 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

want to go total outcross Idol von Bismack - German Shepherd Dog

bringing in the Bernd Lierberg . It can work --- . 
Very important question what is the temperament like of both Lindenhill dogs ?

Let me show you how I have directed the maternal line of "Chimo" . One branch went show - Chimo et al , the other went working - right to my current dogs.

If I can provide an email to someone through my hotmail address so that they can post this on the forum I will show you the structure you can get , Carmspack Hektor , who ended up in police service. ([email protected]) . 
It's all about selection.


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## Noodles (May 1, 2011)

carmspack said:


> want to go total outcross Idol von Bismack - German Shepherd Dog
> 
> bringing in the Bernd Lierberg . It can work --- .
> Very important question what is the temperament like of both Lindenhill dogs ?
> ...


The Dam I know quite well she has a good temperament as far as children other dogs, animals, new places and new events. She is very attached to her owner though and will go off of food if separated... I don't like that but that being said it could be a socialized problem and not hereditary. 

The Sire well he's dead. This would be a breeding with the straws she has left on him. She is guarding them with her life I will say. And they have been planning this breeding for quite a while. I have never met him so I can not attest to his temperament. But it seems that there are many many people who like him.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Noodles said:


> . She is very attached to her owner though and will go off of food if separated... I don't like that but that being said it could be a socialized problem and not hereditary.


No, I don't think so. 

Being iffy with a certain group of people (certain race, age group, people in walkers or wheelchairs, etc) is a socialization issue. Being so dependent on the owner that the dog can't eat without him/her is a nerve issue.

When it comes to ASL bloodlines I don't know my head from my tail, but making excuses for weak nerves is a big part of the reason the breed is where it is today.


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## Noodles (May 1, 2011)

Samba said:


> You might want to discuss withnthe breeder where they are going with this breeding. What is the purpose and what do they expect.
> 
> You might want to read about close linebreeding and what that can mean. It can produce, but it aso can result in homogeneity of undesirable genes. I had a dog who was a 2-2 linebreed. In his case, he got a big dose of much that was undesirable in the line. Such breeding can solidify what is good, but it can also really solidify genetically the undesirable recessives. One would want to avoid a pup that got that genetic deal. How would a person know at a young age?


Samba, I read an interesting disscussion between you and Mike from Lindenhills quite a while ago 2007 I believe. I thought that was interesting. Xeph was there too. 
I enjoyed this reading on linebreeding and inbreeding 'The Joy of Breeding your own show dog' and a few others that I would have to dig out of my library to accurately quote. I am still discussing with Mike Sheila and Amanda so definitely keep the queries coming that I need to ask. They just announced the breeding to me and asked if I wanted pick female I was very excited. Some great things can come from such a breeding. Great can be used to emphasis a catastrophe as well as a success. I have been looking through at both dogs progeny. This could be very exciting indeed.


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## Noodles (May 1, 2011)

Emoore said:


> No, I don't think so.
> 
> Being iffy with a certain group of people (certain race, age group, people in walkers or wheelchairs, etc) is a socialization issue. Being so dependent on the owner that the dog can't eat without him/her is a nerve issue.
> 
> When it comes to ASL bloodlines I don't know my head from my tail, but making excuses for weak nerves is a big part of the reason the breed is where it is today.


Only reason I say socialized is because well hold on you may be taking that word wrong. We use it in a slang way but I use the term how the humanities and sciences define it which is "to refer to the process of inheriting and disseminating norms customs and ideologies. It may provide the individual with the skills and habits necessary for participating within their own society." So when I say it could be socialized into her I simply mean the owner may be causing this by their own behavior. When I have trained many dogs from many different breeds I have seen owners socialize their dogs to have dependence on them through inadvertent ways. So I question its origin, I do not make an excuse for it.


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## Noodles (May 1, 2011)

I wonder if we are projecting our taboo for incest on the dogs here. I mean you can when carefully done breed a brother and sister together with success (not recommending it but it is the closest breeding you can get). It may also come with great failure. That is why you study and you learn and then eventually you just try and it may be great it may be horrible. Look at Cane Corso's I was involved with that breed for a long time. It is very common to breed very tight for many generations and then add some new blood here or there for this trait then eliminate all others that you got and don't want by breeding back and then repeat the process over and over again. Perhaps because they are a new breed with a small gene pool not sure. This breeding is not very close in my terms at all.


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## Noodles (May 1, 2011)

Alright I know how to fix this punnet squares for everyone emoore you take topline, xeph you take ear set, samba you take teeth oh man this will be good we will figure this out quick. lol I am just kidding but anyway since you all know about the line what kind of things have cropped up are there recessive traits that I need to be on the look out for. And Frack is the product of a similar breeding tell me more about him. I am off to run some errands be back soon. Thank you everyone for your help. This is a decision that shall not be taking lightly though I am not the one breeding I do want to know if I should invest my money and time in a pup.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

The breeders know the dogs. If they are breeding on a great individual who carries few faults then goals may be furthered. Type can be solidified.

My friend was looking at a bitch whose type she liked. The female was the result oflinebreeding. Production was going in a manner that pleased the breeder. The female would hopefully be prepotent for the characteristics that were valued.

I have a bitch who is out of a *1-3* bred dam to an outcross male. Where would I go next? Back to the linebreed? It would depend on the possible problems in the line and what needs to be improved. Risks and benefits in almost all that is done in breeding. Also, do the sire and dam compliment each other. No use in just breeding paper. 

I have dogs that go back to the Chimo dog Carmen mentioned bred to a 1/4 old German lines Select female. This formed the foundation for the particular kennel.

With lines of dogs who have significant bottlenecking in ancestry, how do we avoid inbreeding depression? Is it possibe only through selection within the lines or do the available alleles eventually just become too narrow?


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## Noodles (May 1, 2011)

Noodles said:


> Only reason I say socialized is because well hold on you may be taking that word wrong. We use it in a slang way but I use the term how the humanities and sciences define it which is "to refer to the process of inheriting and disseminating norms customs and ideologies. It may provide the individual with the skills and habits necessary for participating within their own society." So when I say it could be socialized into her I simply mean the owner may be causing this by their own behavior. When I have trained many dogs from many different breeds I have seen owners socialize their dogs to have dependence on them through inadvertent ways. So I question its origin, I do not make an excuse for it.


Also I guess I should clarify the situation that she went off of her food on. She was sent to a handler to try and get her final major she went from a home environment to a kennel environment and went off of her food to the point where she lost five pounds. So there are many factors besides not being with mom that could effect this. Either way I don't like it I will say that but is it hereditary that's the question.


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## Noodles (May 1, 2011)

Samba said:


> With lines of dogs who have significant bottlenecking in ancestry, how do we avoid inbreeding depression? Is it possibe only through selection within the lines or do the available alleles eventually just become too narrow?


I think it is possible in the same lines but genetics would have to be studied, that being said you would reach a dead end at some point but genetically I think it is way beyond what most people would consider the stopping point. I have to agree with you on the intense study that needs to be done. Considering that she only has so many straws on him I don't think she would waste them on a bad idea but I will talk with her more and see where she is going and any concerns she may have.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Also I guess I should clarify the situation that she went off of her food on. She was sent to a handler to try and get her final major she went from a home environment to a kennel environment and went off of her food to the point where she lost five pounds. So there are many factors besides not being with mom that could effect this. Either way I don't like it I will say that but is it hereditary that's the question.


What I am about to say is not scientific, just what I have observed. I view that as more of a temperament issue and of course, temperament and behavior is genetic.....and that includes the predisposition for things like "separtion anxiety".

I have a boarding kennel , so, I get to watch the behaviors and reactions of many dogs and many breeds. The dogs who their owners descibe as having temperament or nerve issues are almost always the ones who refuse to eat when they are kenneled. I expect it after I hear what the owners say about them. The dogs who strike me as being solid and quite composed, (really good nerves), almost always eat right away.

Of course, there are other types of dogs who display stress differently. They will eat but have big problems setttling down. They drink too much, move too much, bark too much etc. That certainly is nerves. I have a Border Collie here right now. When the owner dropped off, we had a discussion about the reddish color on the fur of his front legs. I asked him if he was licking his legs. He said yes and said the Vet thought he had allergies. I said I thought it was lick granuloma, where the dog will lick himself repeatedly, much the same way a nervous person bites their nails or fidgets constantly. Obsessive/compulsive disorder perhaps. He has been here five days now and I am even more convinced of what I thought when I first saw the dog. His behavior is very disturbing. He just cannot settle, he is so upset he just can't get a grip.

I realize I have gone a bit away from the not eating thing but for me, it is all related. If you are breeding, you have to ask yourself if you want to pass that on because it can always get worse and many times it does. I have dogs here I will never breed because I know that ignoring something "small", that I don't like as far as nerves go, can quickly become that Border Collie. 

Just something to consider and maybe something to ask about the dogs in that pedigree. I think some of the American SL dogs can be more susceptable to what you are describing there. I say that because of what I have observed while booarding and training them.


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## Noodles (May 1, 2011)

Vandal said:


> What I am about to say is not scientific, just what I have observed. I view that as more of a temperament issue and of course, temperament and behavior is genetic.....and that includes the predisposition for things like "separtion anxiety".
> 
> I have a boarding kennel , so, I get to watch the behaviors and reactions of many dogs and many breeds. The dogs who their owners descibe as having temperament or nerve issues are almost always the ones who refuse to eat when they are kenneled. I expect it after I hear what the owners say about them. The dogs who strike me as being solid and quite composed, (really good nerves), almost always eat right away.
> 
> ...


Thought provoking. Yes I will definitely ask about it. My dog Rhett is her son he doesn't have these problems BUT breeding back on to something in her pedigree... It depends on where this lack of 'nerve' came from and if it would be compounding the problem. Good points. But it also makes me wonder I don't think you can point to one thing as the reason a dog has this nerve problem predisposition yes but to say breeding is the reason why is a little far reaching. That being said a shy or vicious temperament is dominant in dogs. The closer you get to the natural dog the closer you get to a shy or vicious dog its self preservation. Hmmm Ponder ponder ponder.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> But it also makes me wonder I don't think you can point to one thing as the reason a dog has this nerve problem predisposition yes but to say breeding is the reason why is a little far reaching


Can you please explain this a bit more? I am not clear on what you are saying here.


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## Noodles (May 1, 2011)

While I acknowledge that you give lots of good points to think on such as the compounding of temperament problems through breeding. I just think there are too many factors in a dogs environment and socialization to point to his parents as the reason he is nervous or not. Termperment is hereditary so it definitely plays a factor maybe even a huge factor but to think that everything else around the dog doesn't have part in this is foolish. The boarder collie for example is geneticially predisposed to being high strung this is true most everyone knows it but would a boarder collie on a farm with a job to do every day have the same problems as the boarder collie put in a suburban neighborhood where he is expected to lay on the couch with a half hour walk every few days to quell his energy. There are so many factors involved that you can't say one thing is the reason why in any case. That's all I am saying


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Sure, I agree with part of what you said. Some of my complaints about what has happened to the breed is based on what you said. Some are breeding drive out to suit people who don't really want a GSD. 

However, there is a difference between drive and nerves but I think many people simply cannot see that difference. What I am seeing in that dog is not a case of no work. The owner and I had that discussion as well, since I thought more activity might help the dog. He explained that the dog had lived on a farm previously and they had the same issues. I have watched the dog for five days now. This is nerves, I have no doubt about that. I board a number of Border Collies, none that I recall, have behaved like this one.

I have commented in the past about working line dogs and what is going on with them nowadays. Many, ( especailly when I compare them to dogs from the past who had exception nerves,) are more "frantic" in how they do things . They can't seem to settle down , maybe not like that border collie but the behavior is similar. I use the term "composed" because it fits the dogs with good nerves so well. When you see that behavior, it stikes you right away. There is a level of calmness in everything those dogs do. It is not from lacking drive though. Those dogs can go all day but IMO, it is because they have that composure. They aren't wasting energy. 

Anyway, that's all. You can consider it or dismiss it...that is, of course, up to you.


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## Noodles (May 1, 2011)

I guess because I see her regularly in many different situations and never see her lack in nerve that I can not accept this case as a solely hereditary problem. What I mean by this is that her demeanor is not a nervous one. Perhaps the handler was unkind or she was stuck in between some nasty dogs. I will consider it an important topic to bring up to the breeders. I don't want you to think I dismiss your words. I appreciate your advice and it definitely gives me something to think on and another view point to consider.


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## Hillary_Plog (Apr 3, 2011)

I have very little, if any, knowledge of the ASL so I can not comment on any particular dog in this planned breeding. 

I would first ask myself though, what are my plans for "this" puppy: pet, show, work, sport, breeding, or any combination of these things? Then, I would research a bit more (this may mean talking to those that are educated on these pedigrees/dogs (have seen a significant amount of progeny, know of any potential health/temperament issues, etc.), but may be more objective than the breeder, if that is/may be an issue, i.e. kennel blindness...so you can possibly find more out about the dogs that this pup would be line bred on and anything that you could then go back and look for in any existing pups/dogs out of the parents. I only say this because I do not know what your existing relationship is with the breeder, and I do not know how much you already know about the dogs he/she produces. 

Next, I will not nit-pick on the temperament of the dam (I will spare you that discussion/"debate" and leave it for Vandal ), but I will say that I, if it were me picking out this puppy, don't like the idea that you only have limited (hearsay) knowledge of the sire and questions about the dam's temperament (no matter how insignificant they may be). Especially because the pups spend the first 8 weeks or more of their life with momma and I wouldn't want my pup's first 8 weeks to be with an nervous, wired momma. 

Do some more research, ask more questions, go out and see as many dogs from these lines as you can...good luck and let us know what you decide!


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## Noodles (May 1, 2011)

Just a side note I am in love with this grandson of Hyabusa's 
CH (US) Kris-T's Chicago - German Shepherd Dog

Anyone know anything about him?


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## Noodles (May 1, 2011)

Capone

I found this oh man *drool*


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## GermanShepherds6800 (Apr 24, 2011)

I do not know these lines, not my thing. I will say I do like what I see in the male, but I am not crazy about anything in the female.


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## Noodles (May 1, 2011)

GermanShepherds6800 said:


> I do not know these lines, not my thing. I will say I do like what I see in the male, but I am not crazy about anything in the female.


Ya I know. She produces well though. So her phenotype is good.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Phenotype = Physical appearance. Do you mean her genotype?

I have to say that one thing I do like about Han (and his littermates) is they lived a very long time. I believe Han died at 12-13. Lily was still alive last I knew, but am not positive. Han is a dog I wish I could have seen in person.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Xeph said:


> Phenotype = Physical appearance. Do you mean her genotype?
> 
> I have to say that one thing I do like about Han (and his littermates) is they lived a very long time. I believe Han died at 12-13. Lily was still alive last I knew, but am not positive. Han is a dog I wish I could have seen in person.


Anyone know when he died? If the birthdate on the PDB if correct, he would have turned 12yo this past April. So why do they lead you to believe he is in the 13 club? Or do they NOT have to live to be 13yo to be in it?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

watch the temperament closely -- being a ring steward and attending shows both sides of the ring I can tell you there were dogs that spooked because the judge was wearing a "hat" or a "coat" or "sunglasses"
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

They do not have to be 13 to be in the 13 club....which defeats the purpose of the 13 club, IMO, but, I don't run it.

From the GSDCA 13 Club page:

*Requirements to join the 13 club are:* 

 The dog must be a registered German Shepherd Dog living after it's 12th birthday.​
 The information must be submitted in the year they are still living.​
 The owner must fill out the survey form.​
 The owner must submit a copy of the AKC, CKC or SV registration form and a four-generation pedigree.​

Source: http://www.gsdca.org/GSDReviewed/ThirteenClub.htm

So Han didn't die until after his birthday this year, which means he's not been gone long.


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## Noodles (May 1, 2011)

Xeph said:


> Phenotype = Physical appearance. Do you mean her genotype?
> 
> I have to say that one thing I do like about Han (and his littermates) is they lived a very long time. I believe Han died at 12-13. Lily was still alive last I knew, but am not positive. Han is a dog I wish I could have seen in person.


Sorry typing on the run. Yes Genotype. At least what I have seen from her two litters with different sires. Lilly just passed away recently this past summer/spring.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

I saw Voodoo Lily when she was being campaigned to her championship. She was a beautiful bitch, and seemed fine at the dog shows. Hans was also an attractive dog, but was not the dog his sister was. I would worry about hips and bloat with this breeding.


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## Noodles (May 1, 2011)

Andaka said:


> I saw Voodoo Lily when she was being campaigned to her championship. She was a beautiful bitch, and seemed fine at the dog shows. Hans was also an attractive dog, but was not the dog his sister was. I would worry about hips and bloat with this breeding.


Your achievements in the dog world and list of dogs in your repertoire precede you they are quite impressive. Applause to you!


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Xeph said:


> They do not have to be 13 to be in the 13 club....which defeats the purpose of the 13 club, IMO, but, I don't run it.
> 
> From the GSDCA 13 Club page:
> 
> ...


 Thanks Jackie. 

Though I MUST say, "that is just DUMB!" (Not directed at you, I know you don''t make up the rules.) Didn't they have to live past their 13th b-day origionally? (Hence the name.) At least that is what I was thinking, but I could very well be wrong. That would make to much sense!) If I would have known it was REALLY the 12 club, I would have had some of mine put in it! Too bad it has been a year since I lost Diva. A few months AFTER her 12yo b-Day.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

To late to edit. Must be because they made it to their 13th YEAR, rather than their 13th BIRTHDAY.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

I want a 14 club for my 13 year old girl, then!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Andaka how do you feel about a total outcross with this dog. I threw in that black czech lines dog as a way to bring in Bernd Lierberg .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

carmspack said:


> Andaka how do you feel about a total outcross with this dog. I threw in that black czech lines dog as a way to bring in Bernd Lierberg .
> 
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


I am confused. What dog are you asking me about???


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Noodles said:


> Your achievements in the dog world and list of dogs in your repertoire precede you they are quite impressive. Applause to you!


Thank you. We work hard for that reputation, and i hope to be able to carry it forward for a long time.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

sorry Andaka -- I was referring to the female being discussed being bred to a total outcross -- seeing that there are some good links to Bernd Lierberg through Frack as an example, if you bred to a dog which refreshes Bernd Lierberg , you might have some interesting dogs . I provided Idol von Bismack - German Shepherd Dog as an example -- Titus is double Bernd , has a great reputation for strong solid confident dogs.


?? 
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Yes, you might get some interesting dogs doing that breeding. However, since the subject is this particular breeding, which seems to have already taken place and the OP has been offered a pick puppy from the litter, we should only be discussing the questions the OP should be asking before getting a puppy from this breeding.


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## MMinMN (Jan 6, 2012)

*Pet Peeves*

I always find it interesting to discuss breedings with everyone but the breeder, and was quite amazed when a partner of ours discovered this thread and forwarded to me.

With that said, here are some additional facts to clear a few comments up.

Hayabusa;

Yes becoming a member of the 13 club means getting into your 13th year of life. 6 of 7 in that litter have achieved that honor. But more importantly we have not announced his crossing over the Rainbow bridge(he is at my feet as I write this). Tho he is now in the decline of old age .

He himself has been one of the healthiest GSD's we have ever owned or bred. His only issue was the removal of a sebaceous cyst when it would not go away on its own.

He could still pull me accross the floor in a game of tug up till about July, now he just holds the toy :laugh:.

Character;
This dogs character is impeccable and a model for any breeder(regardless of origin). He is fearless without aggression and can perfectly assess any situation, he is beyond reproach.

He is a switch dog, meaning that you can turn him on or off instantly with a tremendous drive, without insanity. Hayabusa was awarded Maturity Victor, Select 2 and 3(VA2/VA3) respectively under some of our most respected judges.

Hayabusa tends to reproduce his character and temperament. After several years of careful watching of progeny, We performed several close breeding's including an inbreeding(Father/Daughter). To date, we feel confident doubling up on him is a net positive.

@ Noodles, not sure who you've been talking to about this litter, meaning that we haven't really considered who will or won't be available. At this point we still have to have some success in a frozen implant on an older bitch. This is not optimal, but we are willing to take the risk.

@Daphne, always love when folks offer an opinion with little or no knowledge. 
I don't really know you, and certainly know you don't know Sheila or I.

If anyone has additional questions, feel free to send them to us directly. You will find that we are quite candid and have no issue discussing our dogs or up coming breedings.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

My apologies, thinking that Han had passed. I thought I had read that he had, but perhaps I was reading about one of his siblings.

Han has been a dog I always liked the looks of.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

> @Daphne, always love when folks offer an opinion with little or no knowledge.
> I don't really know you, and certainly know you don't know Sheila or I.


I was basing my oopinion on several bits of information. One is the litter in question would be linebred 2-3 on Ch. Rosewood's Adonis of Anne Isle. Donny dies of bloat at the age of 4. Donny's sire also would not OFA. That is what I based my suggestions on.

I saw Voodoo Lily get 3 5 point majors, and saw several of the litter in the next couple of years. My husband Tony took her picture at the GSDC of Memphis shows.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

I am a strong believer in genetic diversity in puppies today. I would never touch a pup that heavily linebred... not with my decent knowledge in animal genetics.


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## MMinMN (Jan 6, 2012)

Andaka said:


> I was basing my oopinion on several bits of information. One is the litter in question would be linebred 2-3 on Ch. Rosewood's Adonis of Anne Isle. Donny dies of bloat at the age of 4. Donny's sire also would not OFA. That is what I based my suggestions on.
> 
> I saw Voodoo Lily get 3 5 point majors, and saw several of the litter in the next couple of years. My husband Tony took her picture at the GSDC of Memphis shows.


An opinion based on opinion and or innuendo is the worst when delivered by anyone purporting to be an expert. It is just this type of personality that is driving people out of the breed. I'm sure you were among those that suggested Hayabusa and or Lily would not live beyond the age of two. Whoops, any other great kernels of knowledge.

There were issues with orthopedic's within your own pedigree, but you don't see me offering an opinion about it. Don't you find that to be hypocritical

Anyone worth their salt would simply suggest going to the source to receive any information desired.

As I said, we will discuss all issues good or bad known within our pedigree's with anyone who has an interest.

Have a great day


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## MMinMN (Jan 6, 2012)

*Master breeder*

THE MAKING OF A MASTER BREEDER

Master breeders are those unique individuals who make a lasting contribution to the improvement of their breed and the sport of dogs.
Master breeders (Craige 1997):
Protect and safeguard a breed’s original purpose and function.
Blend art and science in their never-ending passion to produce the ideal dog.
Breed Top Ten dogs, specialty winners and dogs that garner records as top producers.
Allow their great dogs to be used by others in the sport.
Rise above times of insecurity and heartbreaking set-backs.
Set goals towards which they remain true and painfully objective.
Are role models of good sportsmanship.
Do their homework knowing that producing greatness is not a matter of random good luck.
Whether your goal is to produce one or two champions or you aspire to become a master breeder who can be instrumental in improving your breed, worthwhile breeding comes from doing a lot of homework! In addition to having a working knowledge of how genes work, successful breeders need to do the following.

*Know The Origin And Historical Purpose Of Your Breed*


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## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

MMinMN said:


> An opinion based on opinion and or innuendo is the worst when delivered by anyone purporting to be an expert.


Looks to me like she based her opinion on facts, not on opinion or innuendo.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I am curious if the information about dying of bloat at 4 years and lack of OFA on sire is accurate. I have never known Daphne to be mean or judgmental, but I do know that bloat and HD are definitely issues that would color my thinking in any type of linebreeding. If that information is inaccurate that's one thing, if it is accurate, I think its fair for a responsible breeder to have concerns especially when you are talking 2-3 linebreeding which intensifies negatives as well as positives. The issue to me isn't WHO gives me the information, as much as the accuracy of the information. Why? Because we are not dealing with opinions when we talk about Bloat or HD. That is empirical and either it is or it isn't. And I don't see it as negative either as these conditions are throughout the breed, but a responsible breeder knows these things and looks to avoid or breed away from them. This is difficult to do without accurate information. JMO


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## MMinMN (Jan 6, 2012)

GSDGunner said:


> Looks to me like she based her opinion on facts, not on opinion or innuendo.


If she had applied the some consideration to her own breeding decisions, I might respect her opinion.

I do not.

End of thread


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

MMinMN said:


> End of thread


Oh, I highly doubt that.


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## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

MMinMN said:


> End of thread


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> I am curious if the information about dying of bloat at 4 years and lack of OFA on sire is accurate.



Well, since he/she didn't address it, I think maybe you got your answer.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

GSDGunner said:


> Well, since he/she didn't address it, I think maybe you got your answer.


Exactly.


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> I am curious if the information about dying of bloat at 4 years and lack of OFA on sire is accurate. I. JMO


According to this he did die at age 4, but it does not give the cause

Rosewood's Adonis of Anne-Isle


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

methinks some jealousy going on?


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## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

JakodaCD OA said:


> methinks some jealousy going on?


:thumbup:
That or he/she got called out and didn't like it.

By the way, what exactly is a "master breeder"?


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

GSDGunner said:


> :thumbup:
> That or he/she got called out and didn't like it.
> 
> By the way, what exactly is a "master breeder"?


Why, it's all right there in black and white right above you!

I love it when breeders find threads about themselves. You can usually get a pretty good idea about someone by the way they talk to others. If they get huffy and snarky go on the defensive attacking other breeders while refusing to answer questions about themselves, it's very telling. Not that I'm looking to purchase an ASL pup but I would surely wouldn't want to do business with someone like that.

Here's what I would like to see a breeder say:

"Yes, x dog died of bloat at 4 years of age. we believe that, in this case, it was an enivronmental issue as the dog, unbenknownst to us, had eaten a ten pound bag of chicken feed, drank a quart of water, and then went for a nine mile run afterward. It was a tragic accident, but we do not believe it was a genetic predisposition that led to his bloat, so we were not averse to linebreeding on this dog as he had many exceptional qualities."

....or whatever the case may be.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I find it very interesting what goes on in much of ASL show breedings.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I see things haven't changed much from when I was showing many moons ago


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Freestep said:


> I love it when breeders find threads about themselves. You can usually get a pretty good idea about someone by the way they talk to others.


I agree, breeders coming to the forum because they were googling themselves is one of the most amusing things on this forum. The only thing better is when they get very defensive on a thread from three years ago.


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## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

Emoore said:


> I agree, breeders coming to the forum because they were googling themselves is one of the most amusing things on this forum. The only thing better is when they get very defensive on a thread from *three years ago*.


I assume you meant to say "three months ago".


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

GSDGunner said:


> I assume you meant to say "three months ago".


Oh no, I've seen breeders resurrect threads from '07, '08. I have no idea how they do it; I guess it still pops up on google.


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## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

Emoore said:


> Oh no, I've seen breeders resurrect threads from '07, '08. I have no idea how they do it; I guess it still pops up on google.


Oh, I thought you were referring to this particular thread. 
But yeah, I've seen that too.


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## gsdcmsp (Jan 20, 2012)

Lindenhill's Smoke Glacken Has died.

2 X US SEL EXC CH *Lindenhill's Vinnie The Viper* Died a few months back.


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## gsdcmsp (Jan 20, 2012)

gsdcmsp said:


> Lindenhill's Smoke Glacken
> 
> 
> 2 X US SEL EXC CH Lindenhill's Vinnie The Viper - German Shepherd Dog


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## gsdcmsp (Jan 20, 2012)

*Lindenhill mean spirited.*



MMinMN said:


> An opinion based on opinion and or innuendo is the worst when delivered by anyone purporting to be an expert. It is just this type of personality that is driving people out of the breed. I'm sure you were among those that suggested Hayabusa and or Lily would not live beyond the age of two. Whoops, any other great kernels of knowledge.
> 
> There were issues with orthopedic's within your own pedigree, but you don't see me offering an opinion about it. Don't you find that to be hypocritical
> 
> ...


People that are out to cut others down spreading misinformation, rumors, and to try and boost their own kennel are plain mean. 
Psychotic lady from your kennel are driving people from the breed. 
I could dive into the hypocritical stuff I know myself later.


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## gsdcmsp (Jan 20, 2012)

*Born: October 27th
Sire: 2X U.S. Select Ex. Ch. Lindenhill's Vinnie the Viper, TC, OFA h/ed
Dam: Rustic Hill's Pink Tutu of Lindenhill (daughter of Ch. Lindenhill's 
Voodoo Charm, ofa h/e)
For more information, call Sheila or Mike Metz at Lindenhill GSD *


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Tred lightly...we don't allow breeder bashing on this board.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Since this thread is heading in the direction of rule violations I am closing it.

-Admin


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