# Compulsion in ipo training.



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

this is from another thread. 



lalachka said:


> Amazing. Hopefully one day I can learn.
> 
> You probably won't answer this  but how much force is used to train a dog like that? In percentages
> 
> ...


I'm hoping for honest answers. I'm not against force at all but what happens is that I watch videos, read stuff and then feel like a loser when I have to use force on my dog because treats alone don't work. 

also, as I said, I almost stopped going to a really good trainer because he doesn't use ME and Ivan's methods. 
I can't get past this notion that using force is the lazy way out. That the really good trainers should be able to teach a dog to WANT to work. 

Then I watch videos of dogs on the field and they look like they want to work. I'm confused.


ETA therr was a thread here a few days ago about someone who used to train with force and is now training for ipo with no compulsion at all. No prongs, ecollars, corrections of any kind. Not sure if anyone replied. 

So is it possible to not use any force? Is it really a lazy way out to use force?


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Best to get definitions clear, otherwise 3 people may say the same thing but with different understandings. So, to you,
1. What is force?
2. What is no force?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Packen said:


> Best to get definitions clear, otherwise 3 people may say the same thing but with different understandings. So, to you,
> 1. What is force?
> 2. What is no force?



1. Force is using force to teach. For example, teach the dog to down by pulling them with a leash as opposed to luring them. 
2. No force is using only positive methods to teach. So you lure into everything or capture and mark and only start correcting once you feel the dog knows and just doesn't comply. 

Thank you, you're right. This wasn't going to go well )))


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Possible to use no force? No I doubt it. Maybe in some venues, but not in the real world. My overall process goes something like this
Using something you want, I teach/shape a behavior I want.
Then, once I'm sure you know what I want, inevitably I must show you there are consequences to not doing what I want... i.e., this is not solely about you getting what you want.

Different actions by the dog may carry different severity of correction from me. Bite me with malice (when I'm the handler) is up at the top of severity of consequences.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Packen said:


> Best to get definitions clear, otherwise 3 people may say the same thing but with different understandings. So, to you,
> 1. What is force?
> 2. What is no force?


compulsion: the action or state of forcing or being forced to do something; constraint.

force: make (someone) do something against their will.

So anycase where the dog would not be doing it of their own volition.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

hunterisgreat said:


> Possible to use no force? No I doubt it. Maybe in some venues, but not in the real world. My overall process goes something like this
> Using something you want, I teach/shape a behavior I want.
> Then, once I'm sure you know what I want, inevitably I must show you there are consequences to not doing what I want... i.e., this is not solely about you getting what you want.
> 
> Different actions by the dog may carry different severity of correction from me. Bite me with malice (when I'm the handler) is up at the top of severity of consequences.


Yep, this is what I like. Not easy to find around here or maybe I don't know how to look.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

My process is much like Hunter's in a nutshell. Some things the dog simply doesn't want to do. Those are forced. I prefer a balanced approach. I want things to stay as fun and positive as possible, but at some point there needs to be consequences. There is also a lot more involved in compulsion style training than just popping a pinch collar. 

As far as a willingness to work. IMO that's genetic. You can't train that. Either the dog wants to work or it doesn't.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Dog training is light learning to paint. You develop your skill and understanding by doing it and watching the masters do it. It takes a long time and you never really stop learning.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

IMO…true compulsion will not get you far. You can’t teach some of the things that you need to in IPO with 100% compulsion. It’s too much stress/pressure on the dog and only the strongest of dogs will withstand it. If the dog doesn’t break down, it won’t work the way other dogs work and therefore won’t win much/go far. You might be able to title…but even that’s unlikely. I can’t fathom teaching tracking with compulsion.

High level competitors…won’t work with a dog that they need to “get to work.” It’s too much time and too much stress (for both the dog and the handler) and just not worth it. If your dog doesn’t want to do the work…there’s no reason to push it to do the work.

I still use corrections, but only when my dog knows what’s expected and I’m just fixing it. Sometimes it’s necessary to teach a dog positioning or when a dog blows you off. A strong/powerful dog, will need a correction eventually.

There are still trainers out there that train using a lot of pressure. It’s the way Schutzhund was 20 years ago and these people haven’t changed. But I’d be super shocked if anyone that is going to be at nationals in a month uses more compulsion than positive training techniques.

You might be confused by thinking most people are 100% compulsion or 100% PO. The majority of people I know, do both. You just don’t TEACH exercises with compulsion if you want the dog to work in high drive. Once the dog knows what’s expected, you’ll probably need to correct some things in order to get things exactly right.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

mycobraracr said:


> My process is much like Hunter's in a nutshell. Some things the dog simply doesn't want to do. Those are forced. I prefer a balanced approach. I want things to stay as fun and positive as possible, but at some point there needs to be consequences. There is also a lot more involved in compulsion style training than just popping a pinch collar.
> 
> As far as a willingness to work. IMO that's genetic. You can't train that. Either the dog wants to work or it doesn't.


What doesn't your dog want to do?

I know that there's much more to it, just don't know what lol. Can you give a few examples? 

Yes, I'm starting to accept that my dog just doesn't have what it takes. I do agree that it's genetic.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

robk said:


> Dog training is light learning to paint. You develop your skill and understanding by doing it and watching the masters do it. It takes a long time and you never really stop learning.


I know ))) I'm excited to go for the ride and learn all I can. I'm obsessed with training. I wish I was able to train more often (with the trainer, we train on our own every day)


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

I think *most people in the sport teach mechanics with lures/treats, then once the dog grasps the concept some compulsion is introduced for noncompliance. When this happens depends on TD/club, handler, and dog....some will lure forever to get muscle memory, some will lure just enough to see some understanding and then introduce compulsion, and of course everything in between. I don't know anyone that takes a dog and starts right in on compulsion with a dog that has no idea what "down" "sit" etc...means. There is no fairness there.

In my experience, the level of compulsion is really specific to the dog/handler team. Is there conflict there, how does the dog handle the pressure from a correction, what level of correction is required to get the message across but isn't "over the top?", does the handler have the timing down, etc...Some teams start on the ecollar pretty quick because the handler has terrible timing, or there is conflict between handler/dog and the ecollar removes that conflict, some stay on a fursaver, some use a pinch with light corrections, some use a pinch with some heavy handed corrections. I think the key is doing what each individual dog/handler team requires and adjust as the training is happening. I don't believe a "one size fits all" training exists. 

This is where it's great to have experienced, successful teams/mentors around to help noob's find their way and find the right balance with their dog. I love my mentor, every time I think I've got something down she throws a curve ball at me and I'm back to square one in my "feelings" and yet every time I'm out there wondering why the **** I do this, she's there to help me get some success and remember how awesome this is. 

So to answer your question, yeah...force is generally a part of most teams in IPO. I've seen a couple that didn't want to use force, they all ended the same. The team hit a plateau in training and either quit or started adding pressure. Most of the time they came in expecting the pressure to be unbelievable, and then they saw how happy our dogs were, how fair the pressure was, and how each dog received only as much as it needed.

Edit: wow, only three posts when I started typing and when finished there were a lot more. I agree with martemchik, hunter, and jeremy. I also wanted to add, IPO dogs can't show a lot of pressure in trial...there's a video of a dog from nationals that (I thought) killed it during obedience. I barely saw any pressure on the dog, and yet he was docked serious points for "showing pressure." People in the sport are very aware of this, on top of that, we all genuinely love our dogs, working with them is awesome, and it's amazing not only because of the syncrinicity (word?) but because of how much the dog loves it. I wouldn't want to work a dog that wasn't eager to please and eager to "work."


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

lalachka said:


> Yep, this is what I like. Not easy to find around here or maybe I don't know how to look.


One thing to kinda keep in mind Lala, a lot of the time you may be re-training something when you get to a trainer. What they're showing you at that point may not be exactly how they would have done it from the beginning.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

martemchik said:


> IMO…true compulsion will not get you far. You can’t teach some of the things that you need to in IPO with 100% compulsion. It’s too much stress/pressure on the dog and only the strongest of dogs will withstand it. If the dog doesn’t break down, it won’t work the way other dogs work and therefore won’t win much/go far. You might be able to title…but even that’s unlikely. I can’t fathom teaching tracking with compulsion.
> 
> High level competitors…won’t work with a dog that they need to “get to work.” It’s too much time and too much stress (for both the dog and the handler) and just not worth it. If your dog doesn’t want to do the work…there’s no reason to push it to do the work.
> 
> ...


No, that's why I asked for %
I know that most people use both but some use more force and some use less. 
My trainer uses a little more than I like but he's amazing. and it's very possible he's teaching me the way he is because he sees that my dog isn't too into it and there's not much other options. 

He's the one that told me that my dog won't benefit from sport and I'm seeing that he's right.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> One thing to kinda keep in mind Lala, a lot of the time you may be re-training something when you get to a trainer. What they're showing you at that point may not be exactly how they would have done it from the beginning.


Yeah, I just realized it. I'm sure he saw things that made him teach the way he is. He asked to see our tug, my dog wouldn't tug there so that was out of the question lol
With food it looks a little better lmao but not much
He's still the best dog in the world just not bred for sport


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I don't see how compulsion would help a dog that doesn't have drive to do the work…sure, it will force him to do it, but it’s not going to do anything about bringing out anything else that he might have in him.

I don’t know if you’ve worked long enough on drive building in order to make the decision that the only way to get the dog to do things is compulsion…but I’m not there to make that judgment.

Compulsion kills drive…but if you are starting a dog out at a high level of drive, a proper correction will not shut down that drive, it will just be a signal to the dog that something was done wrong. The goal is to start the dog at that high level of drive, make sure they’re always at that level, so that when you do correct, it’s just a pause and then you reward and make sure you bring the dog back up into that higher level of drive.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

DaniFani said:


> I think *most people in the sport teach mechanics with lures/treats, then once the dog grasps the concept some compulsion is introduced for noncompliance. When this happens depends on TD/club, handler, and dog....some will lure forever to get muscle memory, some will lure just enough to see some understanding and then introduce compulsion, and of course everything in between. I don't know anyone that takes a dog and starts right in on compulsion with a dog that has no idea what "down" "sit" etc...means. There is no fairness there.
> 
> In my experience, the level of compulsion is really specific to the dog/handler team. Is there conflict there, how does the dog handle the pressure from a correction, what level of correction is required to get the message across but isn't "over the top?", does the handler have the timing down, etc...Some teams start on the ecollar pretty quick because the handler has terrible timing, or there is conflict between handler/dog and the ecollar removes that conflict, some stay on a fursaver, some use a pinch with light corrections, some use a pinch with some heavy handed corrections. I think the key is doing what each individual dog/handler team requires and adjust as the training is happening. I don't believe a "one size fits all" training exists.
> 
> ...


If someone has bad timing they use ecollar? I thought it was the other way around. To use it you need amazing timing. 

Lol yes, every time I think I understand something I realize that I'm more confused as before. This is why I love training so much. There is so much to learn, there are so many subtleties and it's soooo rewarding when the dog gets it and the dogs look so beautiful when they're eager to work. 
I never thought I'd be interested in sport, never in a million years. I'm now obsessed. I don't want to do anything that doesn't have to do with training. 


And yeah, it's an art to train with force and not shut the dog down. I've seen how easy and fast it is to do that so I appreciate the skill it takes to use force correctly. 

I'd ask for the video but I wouldn't be able to see the pressure either if you didn't.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

martemchik said:


> I don't see how compulsion would help a dog that doesn't have drive to do the work…sure, it will force him to do it, but it’s not going to do anything about bringing out anything else that he might have in him.
> 
> I don’t know if you’ve worked long enough on drive building in order to make the decision that the only way to get the dog to do things is compulsion…but I’m not there to make that judgment.
> 
> Compulsion kills drive…but if you are starting a dog out at a high level of drive, a proper correction will not shut down that drive, it will just be a signal to the dog that something was done wrong. The goal is to start the dog at that high level of drive, make sure they’re always at that level, so that when you do correct, it’s just a pause and then you reward and make sure you bring the dog back up into that higher level of drive.


I've been at it for a year and I still try staying as positive as possible. Never train without treats. I've tried drive building on my own. I'm sure someone else could've done it better but I can't find a trainer that will guide me through it. They all basically say that I have the wrong dog for the sport and leave it at that. I can't keep jumping around, I wasted a year looking for ME in nyc lol. I'm sticking with it and will get a pup in a few months. 

I guess I'm wondering whether with the right dog the training will be different. I'm excited to see but even if not, I feel that with the dog bred for this i can do enoigh on my own. I know a lot of theory, just when I try with my dog he doesn't want what I have. 

Our tugging sessions with the tug are downright sad. The rare times he bites it he spits it out soon after. With the ball it looks a little better. But since he won't tug at any trainer's (maybe some day) I can't get help with it


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

lalachka said:


> If someone has bad timing they use ecollar? I thought it was the other way around. To use it you need amazing timing.
> 
> *SOrry, should have explained better. I've seen handlers with terrible timing go to the ecollar, and the TD or mentor has the remote and makes the corrections to clean up obedience. You need timing with any correction, I wouldn't say it's needed "more" with an ecollar. Although, I don't look at ecollar as a "bigger stick" like some do. I've seen it used mostly at pretty low levels, only dialing up if the scenario/drive at the time required it. Ex: Making a dog do obedience during bitework. However, in the same situation the dog would require a stronger correction no matter what the tool being used is. My male requires a stronger correction during obedience in bitework than he does during just obedience.*
> 
> ...


...


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I very very rarely train even a single simple behavior using *only* one quadrant from Operant Conditioning, so I'm not really sure how to answer. The only thing I don't really use (maybe I do, but I don't really try) is -P. This goes for my IPO training (all three phases) as well as everything else. I show a dog what I want (either let him figure it out or help him do it) and then I mark, praise, and reward that behavior. One of my dogs sees more pressure in obedience because he tends to load in drive, which I want, when there is both some physical and mental pressure on him and his "rewards" are more about a release/overcoming that pressure and him "winning" than simply tossing a treat for being "right".


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

lalachka said:


> I've been at it for a year and I still try staying as positive as possible. Never train without treats. I've tried drive building on my own. I'm sure someone else could've done it better but I can't find a trainer that will guide me through it. They all basically say that I have the wrong dog for the sport and leave it at that. I can't keep jumping around, I wasted a year looking for ME in nyc lol. I'm sticking with it and* will get a pup in a few months.*
> 
> I guess I'm wondering whether with the right dog the training will be different. I'm excited to see but even if not, I feel that with the dog bred for this i can do enoigh on my own. I know a lot of theory, just when I try with my dog he doesn't want what I have.
> 
> Our tugging sessions with the tug are downright sad. The rare times he bites it he spits it out soon after. With the ball it looks a little better. But since he won't tug at any trainer's (maybe some day) I can't get help with it


You're getting a new puppy?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

DaniFani said:


> You're getting a new puppy?


I wish I didn't have to. My dog won't take it well, we are very dependent on each other. But I want to learn to train and with him i can't. The most I can do with him is obedience and even then, basic stuff.

I'm not getting a pup today, I will keep going to my trainer for a few months and see how far we get. But sooner or later, if i want to do all three phases I will need another dog.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

lalachka said:


> I wish I didn't have to. My dog won't take it well, we are very dependent on each other. But I want to learn to train and with him i can't. The most I can do with him is obedience and even then, basic stuff.
> 
> I'm not getting a pup today, I will keep going to my trainer for a few months and see how far we get. But sooner or later, if i want to do all three phases I will need another dog.


You don't want the new dog, and your dog won't like it, but you're going to do it anyway? 

Good reason.

eta; why can't you track with him or do obedience?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

DaniFani said:


> ...


It's not a bigger stick, not to me either. But to me it needs more knowledge than other tools. It's not like general population uses it. Can't train my dog - ecollar


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Have you joined any clubs or training classes? He may surprise you. My first GSD (I adopted her when she was 3.5 years old) lacked confidence, was not very drivey, and had some strange/nerve issues but I was able to continue her training and earned about 12 titles with her. Training a more challenging dog is a great experience if you are serious about training.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Liesje said:


> Have you joined any clubs or training classes? He may surprise you. My first GSD (I adopted her when she was 3.5 years old) lacked confidence, was not very drivey, and had some strange/nerve issues but I was able to continue her training and earned about 12 titles with her. Training a more challenging dog is a great experience if you are serious about training.


Agreed, and just because you can't do bitework doesn't mean you can't do obedience, tracking, AKC obedience, etc... There are SO many things to do. Honestly, in reading your posts around here for awhile I would advise you to do a lot more with your current dog and achieve success before you run out and get another dog. 

Merciel has a dog with a LOT of issues and she has done SOOO much with him. I doubt your dog has issues comparable to hers (hope you don't take offense to that if you're around Merciel). I would get your dog to a high level of obedience (even if that's just reliably listening to you at all times), before you even consider bringing another dog into the home.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Liesje said:


> Have you joined any clubs or training classes? He may surprise you. My first GSD (I adopted her when she was 3.5 years old) lacked confidence, was not very drivey, and had some strange/nerve issues but I was able to continue her training and earned about 12 titles with her. Training a more challenging dog is a great experience if you are serious about training.


I just started training regularly. He has a club but it's full. I'm hoping that at some point he will take me 
But he's the one that told me my dog isn't good for sport. I trust his opinion without question besides i see it myself and was told by a few more. 
Also, my dog won't do protection or tug. Tracking I'm not sure but from what I tried on my own I doubt it. Though at some point I will ask him to try. 

Yes that's what I thought, that training a more challenging dog is what teaches you the most but then someone said that if the dog doesn't enjoy it it's not fair to make him. 

As I said, I'm not getting a pup today. I will see how far we go within the next few months and go from there. 

I'm only interested in ipo or something similar. 
At some point I will get a well bred dog. Just not sure how soon. But i do want to experience working with a dog that was bred for it.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

DaniFani said:


> Agreed, and just because you can't do bitework doesn't mean you can't do obedience, tracking, AKC obedience, etc... There are SO many things to do. Honestly, in reading your posts around here for awhile I would advise you to do a lot more with your current dog and achieve success before you run out and get another dog.
> 
> Merciel has a dog with a LOT of issues and she has done SOOO much with him. I doubt your dog has issues comparable to hers (hope you don't take offense to that if you're around Merciel). I would get your dog to a high level of obedience (even if that's just reliably listening to you at all times), before you even consider bringing another dog into the home.


We are. That's what I said. I'm training with someone now, we will do as much ipo obedience as my dog will let us. But this trainer told me my dog won't do well in ipo and that's what I'm interested in. 
Yes, I will go as far as I can with my dog but at some point I will get a pup and will try to title him. When is the only question. I already decided that it will happen.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

How are you going to train a puppy if you have no experience and no club to go to?


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

You are not consistent about anything. It won't matter if you get a dog bred for IPO. 
Don't keep bouncing around between various opinions, training methods, gear etc..

Find something and stick with it. What your dog will understand is consistent repetition. No matter whether you use compulsion or just positive. 

Consistency, not bouncing all over the place. Your poor dog is probably very confused with all the different things you have tried. I can't even keep track of how many collars you have tried and I think when you walk him he has three or so on.

It is no where near as complicated as you make it.

Find something and stick with it, When you are near perfect then worry about other things.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Jack's Dad said:


> You are not consistent about anything. It won't matter if you get a dog bred for IPO.
> Don't keep bouncing around between various opinions, training methods, gear etc..
> 
> Find something and stick with it. What your dog will understand is consistent repetition. No matter whether you use compulsion or just positive.
> ...


I don't get why him walking with 3 (sometimes it's gasp 4!!!!) matters. 

I found the style of training that I like a year ago. I'm very consistent. I can't find anyone here that trains the same way, that's why I bounce around.
But I'm sticking with what I have. As I wrote. 

Who said it's complicated. My dog is nicely trained, enough to live with comfortably. Everything I'm doing now is for a hobby.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Lala you do generate a lot of traffic. Left for a bit, checked back and we're on topic #2 already!


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Packen said:


> Lala you do generate a lot of traffic. Left for a bit, checked back and we're on topic #2 already!


I'm actually a bot


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

What's a bot? and are you getting a male or a female pup?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Packen said:


> What's a bot? and are you getting a male or a female pup?


Robot. Code that drives traffic. 

Probably a male. Nothing is decided yet except that I will get a pup and try to title him. As much as I'm itching to get one today it will be no earlier than March of next year but probably even after that.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Liesje said:


> Training a more challenging dog is a great experience if you are serious about training.


No it's not, it sucks. 

It does make you a better trainer (unless you jump in front of a bus first, which is definitely an alternative I have considered), but I have a fair amount of sympathy for people who are frustrated with being unable to compete with a problem dog. It sucks! It sucks a bunch! I've been training Pongu pretty intensively in AKC obedience for about 18 months now and here's what I got out of it: nothing. Nada. Zilch. We're never even going to trial in AKC obedience, because the best I would ever get on him would be a UD with crappy scores, and _that's_ only if I spent another 2-3 years beyond what I've already sunk into this project.

So forget it, not happening. I give up. I can't make Pongu into something he's not. There is no trainer on Earth, using any method known to humanity (or, for that matter, any conceivable stripe of space alien, unless they have actual brain swap technology), who could get this dog stable enough to be a serious obedience competitor.

If I wanted to do _IPO_ with Pongu, haaaaa. I would have stuck my head into a blender long before this.

Having said all that (and only because I lost my mind with another spectacular Pongu implosion again this past weekend and needed to vent), I do agree that it would probably not be a hot idea for Lala to get a new dog at this point.

Train the dog you have. Learn _how_ to train. Try a bunch of different things, figure out what it is you actually want to do, learn how to identify good dogs who would do well with you.

If you get a new dog before you actually know any of that stuff, you're just going to make the same mistake I made with Crookytail and wind up with a second dog who's even more useless than your first one.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Yes, that's exactly why I'm not getting one today. Though with my impulsive nature I can't even begin to describe how hard it is not to. 

I feel like I don't know enough to not make all the same mistakes. 
However, I'm also not sure that I'm not torturing my dog with something he doesn't have the genes for. I've been told by someone that I should lay off a little 
So I'd love a dog that will do as much as I'm willing and more but not yet. I will go for a few months, see how he takes it and go from there. I have a really good trainer. I will defer to him.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I guess I don't get what the problem is with the dog that he can't do IPO work at all.

It's pretty rare to find a GSD that CAN'T do anything. It takes a real spook (which I don't think lala's dog is) for a helper not to want to continue with protection. I mean...a dog doesn't need CRAZY amounts of drive to bite a flirt pole...and you can build drive through that and open the dog up to getting onto a pillow and then a sleeve. Many times...either the helper/trainer just isn't good enough to get the dog to react, or the handler has WAY too high of a goal set with their first dog. I mean...we have a guy in our group right now with an American bred show dog...that dog isn't flashy, isn't amazing, and would never be amazing at the sport. But so far...the only thing holding him back is the handler's understanding of the sport and training.

My bitch...came to me trained to not react to prey. She wouldn't take a single thing out of a human's hand. Tugging? Yeah right... We started slow. The moment she grabbed a toy, I let go and let her win. I noticed she had no problem tugging with my other dog. So I grabbed the toy on my other dog's side, told him to let go, and she ended up slowly tugging with me. She wouldn't look at a flirt pole. My helper had to flank her, and get her pissed, but finally, after weeks of her standing and not reacting to a flirt pole...she bit it. She tugged it. She wanted to fight. Within a few weeks of that...she was biting a sleeve with a stronger/fuller grip than my male.

To each their own...but I don't think this current dog is a lost cause. Nothing you've written about him tells me he can't do IPO work.

PM me what you did to start him in tracking...I'd like to know. Maybe I can give you a few tips on how to start him. I took too long to start my male, and he doesn't have the most food drive...so it wasn't easy...but you should see him track now...

The "lay off a little" means you might want to stop doing things for a while and let him be a dog. I had to do this with my bitch. She was taught to suppress her natural instincts and not to be a dog. I basically didn't do any obedience with her for months. Like nothing. She just got treats. I never even muttered a command. I just wanted her to be a dog again. Of course when treats were out and she offered positions, I'd praise and tell her "good X" but that was about it.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

martemchik said:


> I guess I don't get what the problem is with the dog that he can't do IPO work at all.
> 
> It's pretty rare to find a GSD that CAN'T do anything. It takes a real spook (which I don't think lala's dog is) for a helper not to want to continue with protection. I mean...a dog doesn't need CRAZY amounts of drive to bite a flirt pole...and you can build drive through that and open the dog up to getting onto a pillow and then a sleeve. Many times...either the helper/trainer just isn't good enough to get the dog to react, or the handler has WAY too high of a goal set with their first dog.
> 
> ...


3 trainers have tested him. He avoids. He won't look at the toy, he won't bite it. He goes between my legs. I was told not to let him go so he just looked away. A few times when it almost hit him he snapped at it but the rest of the time total avoidance. 

He tugs with me so I think after a certain time and lots of energy we can get him to tug and bite. But no one is offering and I don't want to nag so I left it alone for now and we are starting with obedience. 

He does tug with the ball with me and I let him win all the time too. I'm sure I'm doing lots wrong and I can use help and pointers but he won't tug when I'm out there so I can't have the trainer tell me what I'm doing wrong. Now that we go there every week I'm hoping after a month or so he gets comfortable and tugs. 

I was ready to torture him until he bit and tracked until someone brought the point about me making him do something he doesn't enjoy so that's when I started doubting whether this is fair to him. 



I can put it here, lol, I'm not embarrassed of it 
I lay food tracks in the grass, about a foot apart. Few problems. I lay them in public places so there are distractions. And smells I'm sure. 

He does track the food but gets distracted pretty quick and gives up. I have to keep telling him to go on and then he goes back to sniffing.

We still do it every now and then.


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## Sagan (Apr 27, 2013)

lalachka said:


> 3 trainers have tested him. He avoids. He won't look at the toy, he won't bite it. He goes between my legs.
> 
> He tugs with me so I think after a certain time and lots of energy we can get him to tug and bite.


I don't know anything but it sounds like your dog is just uncomfortable around new people. 

What food do you use with the tracking? Have you tried hamburger or similar that would help keep his attention?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Sagan said:


> I don't know anything but it sounds like your dog is just uncomfortable around new people.
> 
> What food do you use with the tracking? Have you tried hamburger?


Yes, he is, for sure. But doesn't that mean he doesn't have the nerves for it? And shouldn't be taught to bite?

Diff stuff but always good things. Sure, will try hamburger tonight. Usually cheese or fresh pet rolls or fresh pet nuggets.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

IMO dogs should not only have the nerves to safely do bitework (we do not teach dogs to bite, all dogs know how to bite) they should also enjoy it. Lala, if your dog does not enjoy it, than don't force him.

Make sure your dog is hungry enough. If he doesn't have enough drive to track for something, hunger always works. 

As far as compulsion (and I don't mean corrections for proofing), a huge majority of the dogs at the top have had some form of compulsion (the forced retrieve for one). Compulsion done correctly, without emotion, combined with praise does not cause pressure, does not ruin dogs, does not damage the relationship with the dog and does not destroy drive. Unfortunately many people don't have the skill, but then many don't have the skill to train with food and toys either.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

lhczth said:


> IMO dogs should not only have the nerves to safely do bitework (we do not teach dogs to bite, all dogs know how to bite) they should also enjoy it. Lala, if your dog does not enjoy it, than don't force him.
> 
> Make sure your dog is hungry enough. If he doesn't have enough drive to track for something, hunger always works.
> 
> As far as compulsion (and I don't mean corrections for proofing), a huge majority of the dogs at the top have had some form of compulsion (the forced retrieve for one). Compulsion done correctly, without emotion, combined with praise does not cause pressure, does not ruin dogs, does not damage the relationship with the dog and does not destroy drive. Unfortunately many people don't have the skill, but then many don't have the skill to train with food and toys either.


Very true. All of it takes skill. None of it is easy and if it looks like it that's only because the person doing it is a master at it (as with anything)

Yes, I feel like I'm forcing him and I feel like I'm wrong for doing it. 

He's always hungry)))). He gets all food in training. 
I will try again but he doesn't stop tracking because he's not hungry. When he stops he's looking up at me waiting for a treat. So I thought maybe he doesn't know there's anything left in the grass? Or doesn't understand what he should be doing?

I meant to bite on command. To bite when scared instead of running away. And whatever else is done in ipo. I don't know anything about it, just some assumptions.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

You need to work with a club. How can you train in IPO if you don't watch and learn about nor are exposed to IPO?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

lhczth said:


> You need to work with a club. How can you train in IPO if you don't watch and learn about nor are exposed to IPO?


Pmd you

I am training with someone who competes. I'm just saying that I don't know enough.

my dog won't bite so how can I learn about bitework. We train in obedience and everything I know about bitework comes from videos and my assumptions


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

Merciel said:


> No it's not, it sucks.
> 
> *It does make you a better trainer (unless you jump in front of a bus first, which is definitely an alternative I have considered), but I have a fair amount of sympathy for people who are frustrated with being unable to compete with a problem dog. It sucks! It sucks a bunch! *I've been training Pongu pretty intensively in AKC obedience for about 18 months now and here's what I got out of it: nothing. Nada. Zilch. We're never even going to trial in AKC obedience, because the best I would ever get on him would be a UD with crappy scores, and _that's_ only if I spent another 2-3 years beyond what I've already sunk into this project.
> 
> ...


Refreshing when somebody understands.  :blush:


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

And Lisa shows up as a voice of reason


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

About calling out of stand and out of sit. We aren't up to that yet but I've been calling my dog out of a sit for over a year before I started training with someone. 

So which problems could've been created

As far as calling from a stand you said there's pressure through training. How?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Merciel said:


> No it's not, it sucks.


Well, yes, that too, lol, but I guess in the back of my mind I'm wondering more about lala's dog. Is her dog really fearful or nervy or completely lacking in drive? Why does she think getting a new dog will be a different experience? Even my dog that WAS fearful and nervy and lacking in drive (I'm talking a dog that was terrified of someone she lived with for years, not simply a GSD that was a bit harder to motivate) had some pretty flashy obedience and was a stellar agility dog. She was also a fantastic tracker (goes back to Lord) but I don't enjoy tracking and didn't do it when I had her. She was the first dog I ever owned and I managed to put titles on her, and yes even took her to Schutzhund club (she did two SDA obedience titles and I should have done a BH, it would not have been a problem for her).


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Here's my 2 cents. I tend to agree with Lisa.

When I get a dog, tho I may have an idea of what I want to do with it, sometimes it doesn't pan out that way..

I am all for seeing what the dog LOVES to do, and taking full of advantage of it..Whether it's agility/obedience/tracking..etc..

My gsd has NEVER been into agility, which is what "I" wanted to do, she loves to track, tho I don't do it competatively (not much around here to do),,that's what I focus on with her..

Honestly, I think it's unfair to the dog, unfair to me, and really stressful to 'do' something with a dog that he/she is just not 'into'..where's the fun in training? I just don't see it, it's so much more rewarding and FUN to take advantage of what the dog LOVES to do, and go with it..


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Liesje said:


> Well, yes, that too, lol, but I guess in the back of my mind I'm wondering more about lala's dog. Is her dog really fearful or nervy or completely lacking in drive? Why does she think getting a new dog will be a different experience? Even my dog that WAS fearful and nervy and lacking in drive (I'm talking a dog that was terrified of someone she lived with for years, not simply a GSD that was a bit harder to motivate) had some pretty flashy obedience and was a stellar agility dog. She was also a fantastic tracker (goes back to Lord) but I don't enjoy tracking and didn't do it when I had her. She was the first dog I ever owned and I managed to put titles on her, and yes even took her to Schutzhund club (she did two SDA obedience titles and I should have done a BH, it would not have been a problem for her).


Because I don't know what else to think. I've been told by 2 trainers that own clubs that I don't have a dog for the sport. 

So for now we are doing what we can. at some point I will ask my trainer again what he thinks and go from there. I will give it a few months.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

JakodaCD OA said:


> Here's my 2 cents. I tend to agree with Lisa.
> 
> When I get a dog, tho I may have an idea of what I want to do with it, sometimes it doesn't pan out that way..
> 
> ...


Yeah, so since I still want to do ipo I was thinking of getting a dog that is bred for it and enjoys it and just enjoy life with my dog. Play our little games, let him chase his friend, do some obedience, toss balls and stop trying to make him into something he's not and then get frustrated over it. 

we just started going to this trainer regularly. We will go for a few months and then I will ask for his opinion again. Whether I should try to push my dog or get another one.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

lalachka said:


> About calling out of stand and out of sit. We aren't up to that yet but I've been calling my dog out of a sit for over a year before I started training with someone.
> 
> So which problems could've been created
> 
> As far as calling from a stand you said there's pressure through training. How?


OK. So, to me, the motion exercises are about pressure/release. AND risk vs reward. 
So the sit in motion. There is obviously more to it, but to keep it simple. What advantage do you get from calling the dog from a sit? None, no where in an IPO routine is it done. What problems can you get? Maybe the dog starts to hover in anticipation of a recall. For instance. It is not a super stable position like a down where you can just make pressure to secure the position. It is a delicate exercise, too much pressure and maybe the dog downs, too little and the sit is slow or worse. Or, if the sit is done without pressure, perhaps you will need to add pressure to maintain the position if you start recalling the dog out of it. There are so many negatives that can occur and no advantage, so why do it? It is just stupid. 

To the stand. To understand what I mean with the stand you have to understand the down with recall. So the down is a pressure exercise. You make pressure to make the dog down quickly. So that pressure has to go somewhere. Imagine steam pressure behind a valve, the more pressure that is made behind the valve the faster the steam will shoot out when that valve is opened. It is the same with the dog. You have pressure in the down, and when you open the valve with the recall, all that pressure is going to go into a fast recall. It is the same with the stand, except the stand is less stable. So it is more possible for that pressure to "slowly vent" instead of explode. Just like if we sprung a small hole in our theoretical steam system. So we lose pressure and so we lose explosiveness in the recall. So, in training it is important that we maintain that pressure by not often recalling the dog.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

You have to start with the correct raw material. Starting with a dog that was bred to excel in IPO will increase your chances of having a dog with the correct attitude and drive to succeed. When you start with the right dog, you can learn along the way and your dog will forgive your mistakes because he has a overriding desire to work and to please you. You can learn as a team.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Zahnburg said:


> OK. So, to me, the motion exercises are about pressure/release. AND risk vs reward.
> So the sit in motion. There is obviously more to it, but to keep it simple. What advantage do you get from calling the dog from a sit? None, no where in an IPO routine is it done. What problems can you get? Maybe the dog starts to hover in anticipation of a recall. For instance. It is not a super stable position like a down where you can just make pressure to secure the position. It is a delicate exercise, too much pressure and maybe the dog downs, too little and the sit is slow or worse. Or, if the sit is done without pressure, perhaps you will need to add pressure to maintain the position if you start recalling the dog out of it. There are so many negatives that can occur and no advantage, so why do it? It is just stupid.
> 
> To the stand. To understand what I mean with the stand you have to understand the down with recall. So the down is a pressure exercise. You make pressure to make the dog down quickly. So that pressure has to go somewhere. Imagine steam pressure behind a valve, the more pressure that is made behind the valve the faster the steam will shoot out when that valve is opened. It is the same with the dog. You have pressure in the down, and when you open the valve with the recall, all that pressure is going to go into a fast recall. It is the same with the stand, except the stand is less stable. So it is more possible for that pressure to "slowly vent" instead of explode. Just like if we sprung a small hole in our theoretical steam system. So we lose pressure and so we lose explosiveness in the recall. So, in training it is important that we maintain that pressure by not often recalling the dog.


Thank you!!!! Amazing explanation. I don't even have questions and trust me this almost never happens

And yep, my dog hovers in anticipation. I won't do it again


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

robk said:


> You have to start with the correct raw material. Starting with a dog that was bred to excel in IPO will increase your chances of having a dog with the correct attitude and drive to succeed. When you start with the right dog, you can learn along the way and your dog will forgive your mistakes because he has a overriding desire to work and to please you. You can learn as a team.


So why am I being ridiculed for it? 
My dog is amazing in many ways and you don't know how much i tried. At least 2 hours a day is dedicated to my dog. I've tried everything I saw on videos and everything I've read about. It's like pulling teeth. He's not interested. 

I'm itching to try all these things I saw on videos, i get so excited while watching and then I can't help but to be frustrated when he doesn't show interest. 

My trying to find a club is a separate story and a sad one. I call, email and text 2 clubs every week for months. I know they're active but they don't reply and don't pick up the phone. The two I was able to get in touch with are full and said my dog isn't suitable


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Zahnburg said:


> So, in training it is important that we maintain that pressure by not often recalling the dog.


Lol forget the 'no question' part.
Why not recall often? And how is recall perfected then?

I have another question, not just for you. Also hoping for an honest answer. 

How obedient are ipo dogs in real life? Let's say it chased something or is playing with a dog, you recall. Will it always run to you with the same speed or will it take a few seconds longer to start running to you?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

lalachka said:


> So why am I being ridiculed for it?
> My dog is amazing in many ways and you don't know how much i tried. At least 2 hours a day is dedicated to my dog. I've tried everything I saw on videos and everything I've read about. It's like pulling teeth. He's not interested.


Absolutely nothing wrong with wanting a dog that is bred for what you want to do. The issue is that if your training is based on YouTube and forum threads, you may end up with the same struggles you are already having with the current dog. I would make finding a club a priority (they can probably help you get a nice puppy). If you are serious about IPO, the foundation is really important.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

lalachka said:


> Lol forget the 'no question' part.
> Why not recall often? And how is recall perfected then?
> 
> I have another question, not just for you. Also hoping for an honest answer.
> ...


Not "not recall often". Don't recall from the stand often. This is to maintain the pressure in the stand.

For your second question, it depends on the dog, handler and their relationship. I have known dogs with perfect obedience on the field yet none off. And I have known dogs that have terrible obedience scores yet are perfectly in the handler's hand off the field.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

It's like any sport dog. I think you're expecting them to be robots. They are not.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Liesje said:


> Absolutely nothing wrong with wanting a dog that is bred for what you want to do. The issue is that if your training is based on YouTube and forum threads, you may end up with the same struggles you are already having with the current dog. I would make finding a club a priority (they can probably help you get a nice puppy). If you are serious about IPO, the foundation is really important.


Not youtube))))) ME vids lol. Huge diff)))))))

Yeah youre right. Then I might just drive out to those two clubs this weekend. I don't have much to lose

I'm also hoping that after a few months I will have a better chance of getting into his club if he thinks I'm committed enough 
Maybe he will make space. 
If not then I will keep paying for private sessions.

Yes, I know about foundation. I also want to learn how to raise a pup for ipo. Like which offenses they can get away with and so on.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> It's like any sport dog. I think you're expecting them to be robots. They are not.


Any sport. I used ipo as an example. 
If I'm expecting them to be robots it's only because I'm reading the forums and the people bragging ahout amazing things tbeir dogd do, like stay down with a dog charging and stuff like that. If people were a little more honest then no one would get the wrong impression. 






Zahnburg said:


> Not "not recall often". Don't recall from the stand often. This is to maintain the pressure in the stand.
> 
> For your second question, it depends on the dog, handler and their relationship. I have known dogs with perfect obedience on the field yet none off. And I have known dogs that have terrible obedience scores yet are perfectly in the handler's hand off the field.


Got it thank you))))))
I was wondering if one automatically meant the other but from what you're saying they might even not be connected


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

ME is just one person/method. If you really like him, I think you can attend his training "school" for a session.

As far as raising the pup, there are a million ways to do it. In the end, you just have to do what works for YOUR lifestyle and your training program. I raise my dog a lot different than my old TD, but then my dog outscored him  Just use common sense and you'll be fine. IMO there's more harm than good trying to do what a bunch of strangers say without applying it to your situation.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Liesje said:


> ME is just one person/method. If you really like him, I think you can attend his training "school" for a session.
> 
> As far as raising the pup, there are a million ways to do it. In the end, you just have to do what works for YOUR lifestyle and your training program. I raise my dog a lot different than my old TD, but then my dog outscored him  Just use common sense and you'll be fine. IMO there's more harm than good trying to do what a bunch of strangers say without applying it to your situation.


If i could afford it I would. Him and ivan. 

Yeah but i need to know what not to punish. For example, I never had the land sharking stage. I popped his collar a few times and it was over with. Now I'd encourage him biting towels instead. so I'd need to know what not to stop so that I don't suppress something


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I personally am not "purely positive", but I don't train with pure compulsion either. There are corrections in my training, but all of my puppies are raised with shaping behaviors and positive reinforcement.

And there are a whole lot of IPO trainers who say that they don't use corrections, but behind closed doors and outside of their videos and seminars, they most certainly do.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

lalachka said:


> If i could afford it I would. Him and ivan.
> 
> Yeah but i need to know what not to punish. For example, I never had the land sharking stage. I popped his collar a few times and it was over with. Now I'd encourage him biting towels instead. so I'd need to know what not to stop so that I don't suppress something


I have not had a landshark either, even the pup I raised and trained that is now national level IPO. Working lines, show lines, and a mix lined...no bad landsharks. I don't know if I'm lucky, my husband thinks it's how I interact with my dogs, they just don't do that crap with me.

If the dog has good genetics you're not going to suppress much unless you're really trying. Raise the pup YOU want to live with. The respect and bond is the most important, IMO. You already traded biting you for biting a towel so that's just fine, you won't be suppressing anything if you're offering toys or something else to tug with.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Two hours a day? Trying to shove a tug toy in his mouth? Of course he won't do it.

Not sure why you feel like you're wasting anyone's time. If you pay them for their time, you're not wasting it. My helper waved a flirt pole around for months until he finally decided to get civil with my dog to unlock her. I didn't care, neither did anyone I trained with. They wanted her to open up, they wanted me to succeed. We knew she had it in her, and the fact that she did, I don't think you'd ever see people more excited about a dog that bites a rag on a flirt pole.

You have to realize that for two years...you've taught your dog bite inhibition, you've taught him to not react a certain way to things/people. I know you've been trying to turn this around, but many times, this takes the help of someone else...because it removes you from the equation. Lets your dog be a dog without the person that has been the authority in it's life for the last two years.

The way you started him on tracking...yeah...tons wrong with that. You should be doing scent pads. Showing the dog that it can get success from the ground. Using some really good food. He shouldn't have to be actually following any sort of footsteps for a while. You want to build his drive for the food in the grass...not just ask him to follow footsteps from the get go.

I dunno...I hate it when people give up on dogs...one or two sessions with a dog that has never done something like that, in that place, doesn't say much. The dog does need to be comfortable when it first starts...because it doesn't realize the fun that is coming. It takes a little bit to build a dog up the the level where it does enter any field and realizes what's going on and gets up in drive no matter where it is.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

lalachka said:


> Any sport. I used ipo as an example.
> If I'm expecting them to be robots it's only because I'm reading the forums and the people bragging ahout amazing things tbeir dogd do, like stay down with a dog charging and stuff like that. If people were a little more honest then no one would get the wrong impression.


I don't think any of this has to do with people not being honest. My dogs know the difference between training/trialing and real life. If I'm not actively engaging and ask my dog to come in a normal voice, he's going to take his sweet as time. That's not where we've put in time training and proofing. If I'm on a disc field and say come in the same voice, he's going to be hauling ass because of the expectations set forth. 

My dogs are more obedient out and about when we are performing and traveling than when we are home. I have no need for them to look good, sit and stay and be quiet at home. *shrugs* 

It is all about preference and what you want to train for. I don't need .5 second come fronts in my house. I dont have an emergency down so it's a lot louder in a park with a dog rushing us than when we're doing heelwork and I do a down out of motion. Just because of my training style and expectations. 

You will learn new things with each dog you own, raise, train or train with. You won't get your first sport puppy even close to perfect, so don't worry about it.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

GatorDog said:


> I personally am not "purely positive", but I don't train with pure compulsion either. There are corrections in my training, but all of my puppies are raised with shaping behaviors and positive reinforcement.
> 
> And there are a whole lot of IPO trainers who say that they don't use corrections, but behind closed doors and outside of their videos and seminars, they most certainly do.


Yeah your boaz vids are amazing. Your vids are some of the ones that makes me itch to try things lol

So once they're not pups, you still teach with positive, right? Or sometimes teach with compulsion? 

Karma looks like she's enjoying all of it, if a dog can look like this after being trained with some compulsion then I had wrong ideas. 

Yep, diff picture ones you see behind the scenes. I guess I don't understand the need to lie. 







Liesje said:


> I have not had a landshark either, even the pup I raised and trained that is now national level IPO. Working lines, show lines, and a mix lined...no bad landsharks. I don't know if I'm lucky, my husband thinks it's how I interact with my dogs, they just don't do that crap with me.
> 
> If the dog has good genetics you're not going to suppress much unless you're really trying. Raise the pup YOU want to live with. The respect and bond is the most important, IMO. You already traded biting you for biting a towel so that's just fine, you won't be suppressing anything if you're offering toys or something else to tug with.


Oh. Lol everyone is talking about it here, before that I had no idea that this was almost expected and tolerated for months. Some things I won't put up with. 

And got you))))) I still can't decide about my dog's issues. It feels good to blame myself and doesn't feel good to admit they're genetic. Not sure why


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

We are going out for our two hour thingie, martem)))))). Will reply later. See some interesting things already))) yours and others


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Like...you're constantly talking about how much time you spend with your dog. Which is great! It's awesome you have that time to spend with your dog. But too much time trying to do something creates a lot of pressure and issues. It also completely destroys drive. A dog can only do something for a certain period of time, and you just try to stretch that each session.

I tell people all the time...obedience should be play. You should think you're playing with dog most of the time, and so should your dog. I hate seeing formal obedience sessions in training. Unless you're preparing for a trial...no reason to make it formal.

The number one thing I can see you doing, is something I did. I'd want my dog to do something so bad...I'd get really angry when he didn't. I tried super hard not to show it, but they can read it really quickly. They realize they're doing something wrong, something to make you mad, and they shut down. That's the last thing you want.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

All dogs are different...Some are the type that will challenge, and need the come to Jesus meetings, some are very biddable and don't ever want to be wrong. 
There are dogs that engage coming out of the box, and others that will not even bark but watch when a helper is in their realm. I've seen many types in training and there is no one size fits all. 
It is up to us as the handler and the ones who know how to work the different types that will bring out the dogs inner instinct/genetics. 
Some dogs with no ball drive will turn on with a bit of growing. But a dog that is showing fear or timid behaviors or truly not wanting to be in the sport should not be pushed because the handler wants what that dog will never be. Hopefully the trainer or helper will be honest with those. Some of the pay to trains aren't always up front, but will tell the handler what they want to hear and keep working the dog.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

lalachka said:


> Yeah your boaz vids are amazing. Your vids are some of the ones that makes me itch to try things lol
> 
> So once they're not pups, you still teach with positive, right? Or sometimes teach with compulsion?
> 
> ...


I don't force Carma to do anything that she doesn't want to, but yes, she is trained with e collar corrections and still manages to have a blast.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I see nothing wrong with wanting a dog to do what you want to do. Anyone that has done some sport or working has this feeling. I say go for it. If you have a club and trainer to help, then get a dog that can do the work. As long as you understand that even if the deck is stacked in your favor, you may not get an IPO dog. 

For me it's about seeing the dog in front of you, working it to it's potential and not being disappointed because it's not perfect. 

I am a person that gets a dog, and keeps the dog. No matter what they end up being. I don't rehome dogs because they don't work for sport or working. If that means I have a dog that ends up a companion, then so be it. No judgement to those that are different, I just know myself. 

The male I have now, I am doing IPO with as well as HRD. To be honest, not sure if he is going to excel at either. But it's the journey for me. We are preparing for our BH this winter. We won't get High BH. We will pass, but it won't be Carma!!! And I am ok with that. I don't need a world class dog right now. That's not my goal. 

Be honest with your goals, your skill level and your expectations.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

GatorDog said:


> I don't force Carma to do anything that she doesn't want to, but yes, she is trained with e collar corrections and still manages to have a blast.


Very well said, it's an art. And Lala, the best way to learn is to find a mentor and do hands on training + trialing. Will take 2-4 years. Otherwise it's just talk and posts.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

martemchik said:


> Two hours a day? Trying to shove a tug toy in his mouth? Of course he won't do it.
> 
> Not sure why you feel like you're wasting anyone's time. If you pay them for their time, you're not wasting it. My helper waved a flirt pole around for months until he finally decided to get civil with my dog to unlock her. I didn't care, neither did anyone I trained with. They wanted her to open up, they wanted me to succeed. We knew she had it in her, and the fact that she did, I don't think you'd ever see people more excited about a dog that bites a rag on a flirt pole.
> 
> ...



where can I read about starting tracking?

If i had a club that took us I'd give up on the idea of getting another dog for a few years. I can't afford private sessions for too long and as often as I'd like. I'm not sure why he said the club is full, because it really is, because he doesn't want me to join because of me or doesn't want me to join because of my dog. 

If it's my dog that's stopping me from joining then I will get another one. If it's something im doing then I will work on myself. I'm hoping I will have my answer in a few months. 


Also, this isn't about giving up on my dog. Up until a few weeks ago I was ready to do what it takes and I got somewhere. He's tugging somewhat, i got some commands down. But then someone mentioned that I might not be fair to the dog, making him do something he might not want to do. And I've been doubting ever since. 

And i know I've done many things that affected his drive and maybe even his nerves. 






DJEtzel said:


> I don't think any of this has to do with people not being honest. My dogs know the difference between training/trialing and real life. If I'm not actively engaging and ask my dog to come in a normal voice, he's going to take his sweet as time. That's not where we've put in time training and proofing. If I'm on a disc field and say come in the same voice, he's going to be hauling ass because of the expectations set forth.
> 
> My dogs are more obedient out and about when we are performing and traveling than when we are home. I have no need for them to look good, sit and stay and be quiet at home. *shrugs*
> 
> ...


Yeah I know I will make a million mistakes. It's ok. I will with the 10th one as well. I will always feel like I could've done better and that's ok, i'd rather keep striving 


About expectations. I'm still not sure how obedient people's dogs are irl. I'd have to see some of them to paint the right mental picture






martemchik said:


> Like...you're constantly talking about how much time you spend with your dog. Which is great! It's awesome you have that time to spend with your dog. But too much time trying to do something creates a lot of pressure and issues. It also completely destroys drive. A dog can only do something for a certain period of time, and you just try to stretch that each session.
> 
> I tell people all the time...obedience should be play. You should think you're playing with dog most of the time, and so should your dog. I hate seeing formal obedience sessions in training. Unless you're preparing for a trial...no reason to make it formal.
> 
> The number one thing I can see you doing, is something I did. I'd want my dog to do something so bad...I'd get really angry when he didn't. I tried super hard not to show it, but they can read it really quickly. They realize they're doing something wrong, something to make you mad, and they shut down. That's the last thing you want.



I get disappointed not angry. I try not to show it but he knows, I'm sure of it. 

About 2 hours. It's not all training. It's time spent with him outside with play and training sessions every now and then. Like right now we are taking a break. 
What do you do? Just one session a day? How long

What do you mean by formal sessions? I think that's what I do but that's how I'm taught. It's boring, i agree. But i decided to follow and stop flip floping and see where it takes me. 






onyx'girl said:


> All dogs are different...Some are the type that will challenge, and need the come to Jesus meetings, some are very biddable and don't ever want to be wrong.
> There are dogs that engage coming out of the box, and others that will not even bark but watch when a helper is in their realm. I've seen many types in training and there is no one size fits all.
> It is up to us as the handler and the ones who know how to work the different types that will bring out the dogs inner instinct/genetics.
> Some dogs with no ball drive will turn on with a bit of growing. But a dog that is showing fear or timid behaviors or truly not wanting to be in the sport should not be pushed because the handler wants what that dog will never be. Hopefully the trainer or helper will be honest with those. Some of the pay to trains aren't always up front, but will tell the handler what they want to hear and keep working the dog.


He already told me that my dog won't benefit from the sport (his words, won't benefit) 
I don't want to ask too many questions yet. I want to go for a few months more and then ask again once my dog is hopefully a little more comfortable and he sees more of him
we are only doing obedience






gsdsar said:


> I see nothing wrong with wanting a dog to do what you want to do. Anyone that has done some sport or working has this feeling. I say go for it. If you have a club and trainer to help, then get a dog that can do the work. As long as you understand that even if the deck is stacked in your favor, you may not get an IPO dog.
> 
> For me it's about seeing the dog in front of you, working it to it's potential and not being disappointed because it's not perfect.
> 
> ...


 I'm not rehoming my dog!!!! I don't care that he can't do sport, he can do many other things. He's the biggest mush ever. I have SA, i can't live without him. I can't believe that I even gave the idea that I'd rehome him

If i get another dog then I will just leave him alone and it will be a constant party for him, do what he wants. 

But I'm not getting a dog just yet. I want to train for a few months, learn as much as I can with him and then, if it still looks like he won't do, get another dog. 








Packen said:


> Very well said, it's an art. And Lala, the best way to learn is to find a mentor and do hands on training + trialing. Will take 2-4 years. Otherwise it's just talk and posts.


I know this thing is pages long but I have a trainer. And i still have time to post


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Packen said:


> Very well said, it's an art. And Lala, the best way to learn is to find a mentor and do hands on training + trialing. Will take 2-4 years. Otherwise it's just talk and posts.


Actually it's already much more than talk for me. I wake up at 4 am to get there. Considering that I hate waking up and don't wake up before 10 even for work, this is huge. But unless you know me you won't understand how huge


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Tracking...you need someone there to see how your dog is reacting to what you're doing and how he's advancing. More than likely, you'll go too fast, he'll fail, and it won't be good for his training.

As far as obedience training....my dog is more advanced so I can do longer sessions. But I'm still always working on keeping him in drive. So it's always a game, it's always trying to get him to go for his tug (he's a tugger), and I use that to get him into positions I want him in. So it's a constant game. The way I like to put it...is if after 10 minutes you think you've wasted your time and just played with your dog, it's the perfect obedience training session. Most things are done in motion, any stationary exercises are done with anticipation....he anticipates the release and it builds power.

For my bitch...I'm just guiding her into position with hot dogs. No commands, just hot dogs. Of course there is a "yes" when she's in the right position...but that's it. She's 3, but I'm training her like she's a 6 month old puppy...because that's what she is to me. I have to undo 2.5 years of bad training...and the only way to do it is patience.

This is the issue with reading and watching youtube videos. Makes you think you can train/do the things you see/read without someone experienced helping you out. Unfortunately, many times when you read things, you believe you see them in your dog or your dog's performance, and more than likely its not there. You want it to be, but its not. It's usually due to the fact that we don't usually 100% understand what the writing says.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

martemchik said:


> Tracking...you need someone there to see how your dog is reacting to what you're doing and how he's advancing. More than likely, you'll go too fast, he'll fail, and it won't be good for his training.
> 
> As far as obedience training....my dog is more advanced so I can do longer sessions. But I'm still always working on keeping him in drive. So it's always a game, it's always trying to get him to go for his tug (he's a tugger), and I use that to get him into positions I want him in. So it's a constant game. The way I like to put it...is if after 10 minutes you think you've wasted your time and just played with your dog, it's the perfect obedience training session. Most things are done in motion, any stationary exercises are done with anticipation....he anticipates the release and it builds power.
> 
> This is the issue with reading and watching youtube videos. Makes you think you can train/do the things you see/read without someone experienced helping you out. Unfortunately, many times when you read things, you believe you see them in your dog or your dog's performance, and more than likely its not there. You want it to be, but its not. It's usually due to the fact that we don't usually 100% understand what the writing says.


We just had a really nice session (2nd for the night). I'm doing something right. Of course it was all because he wanted the cheese but I'm happy with it. Yeah I will wait with the videos and tracking and all that. For now I will just follow my trainer and do everything he's teaching


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

lalachka said:


> We just had a really nice session (2nd for the night). I'm doing something right. Of course it was all because he wanted the cheese but I'm happy with it. Yeah I will wait with the videos and tracking and all that. For now I will just follow my trainer and do everything he's teaching


And that's all that you should do!!! You should just be happy with any progress. With some dogs its fast, with others its slow. Too many people expect to get an IPO3 on their dogs within 2 years when its just not possible...and they get down on themselves and their dog when they don't do it.

I'm happy with any progress I get in a given day...I don't worry about how long it will take me to get a title. The journey to that title is a lot more fun...and the fact that I have two different dogs to do it with, is even better because I learn so much more.

When people told you that you will learn about protection/tracking/obedience by watching others at a club...its because at the moment you only have ONE dog to work with, and that's a very limited experience. When you watch others work, see what they are going through, see how they get over obstacles, you learn those tools without having to go through it yourself. So that way, when you do have a dog in the future that experiences that issue...you already know a way to fix it.

I train with about 10 different dogs. It's amazing how different they all are in protection. There are two sets of 3 littermates in my group...and they all share a mom. But each dog is different and has it's own problems it needs to overcome and has it's own strengths that the others don't. It's really quite amazing how much you can learn if you truly are interested and are watching other dogs and asking questions...not just focusing on your dog.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

And I forgot to mention, get the right dog as there is another thumb rule "you can't take a donkey to the Kentucky Derby"


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Packen said:


> And I forgot to mention, get the right dog as there is another thumb rule "you can't take a donkey to the Kentucky Derby"


Not everyone's goal is the Kentucky Derby. There are plenty of local race tracks that are more than enough for most people.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

martemchik said:


> Not everyone's goal is the Kentucky Derby. There are plenty of local race tracks that are more than enough for most people.


Well since the subject is IPO, I was referring to the Derby as equivalent to IPO3. Have to set goals, plans and testing methodology to accomplish it. Bottom line, good dog, good training will get you there and after 2-4 years, plus accomplishing goals, now you have enough to think and make your own plans. Otherwise you just wasted a lot of time. Which is fine if it meets goals set. What I am saying is "don't wing it" and see what happens.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Packen said:


> Well since the subject is IPO, I was referring to the Derby as equivalent to IPO3. Have to set goals, plans and testing methodology to accomplish it. Bottom line, good dog, good training will get you there and after 2-4 years, plus accomplishing goals, now you have enough to think and make your own plans. Otherwise you just wasted a lot of time. Which is fine if it meets goals set. What I am saying is "don't wing it" and see what happens.


If i do end up getting a dog making sure I get a good one will be tough. But i will do my best. 

What do you mean by 'wing it' and see what happens


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Not everyone is out to finish first or have a 3 by 3. For some it is about the journey, and the dog they have in front of them. 
Learning is constantly happening. 
And for some the end goal is to title for breeding purposes. We all have different reasons for being in the sport....hopefully everyone enjoys it and being fair to the dog they are working is most important.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> Not everyone is out to finish first or have a 3 by 3. For some it is about the journey, and the dog they have in front of them.
> Learning is constantly happening.
> And for some the end goal is to title for breeding purposes. We all have different reasons for being in the sport....hopefully everyone enjoys it and being fair to the dog they are working is most important.


Oh i see what he means. 
for me it's def about the journey. I want to learn how to train a dog to do all these things and then enjoy watching him do it.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Gary Patterson's book _Tracking: From the Beginning _is a very good starter book. You, though, need to see good tracking so you can attempt to copy that picture. I am self taught in tracking and have just figured things out through watching, reading, experimenting, picking up some pointers and ideas here and there and then doing a lot of tracking. I know the picture I want, work towards that goal while at times accepting the limitations of the dog and my own ideology about what I will and will not do for points.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

lhczth said:


> Gary Patterson's book _Tracking: From the Beginning _is a very good starter book. You, though, need to see good tracking so you can attempt to copy that picture. I am self taught in tracking and have just figured things out through watching, reading, experimenting, picking up some pointers and ideas here and there and then doing a lot of tracking. I know the picture I want, work towards that goal while at times accepting the limitations of the dog and my own ideology about what I will and will not do for points.


Yes, I've never seen it done. I will still read the book in the meanwhile and see where we get. I know nothing about tracking. Less than nothing.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I think the biggest issue with lala getting a “perfect for IPO” dog at this point is everything she thinks she knows has come from this forum and things she’s read other places. She hasn’t seen it in action, so she has no idea what she might want or not want in her future dog. I think she’s still at the point where she sees a dog doing protection, or obedience…and it all looks amazing. Mostly because her dog doesn’t do it so anything more than what her dog does…is just amazing. But that’s not how you should look at it…you need a better understanding of what is going on with the dog and what it really is presenting. So even if she goes around and meets a bunch of breeders and sees their dogs…every single one of them is going to look amazing.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

martemchik said:


> I think the biggest issue with lala getting a “perfect for IPO” dog at this point is everything she thinks she knows has come from this forum and things she’s read other places. She hasn’t seen it in action, so she has no idea what she might want or not want in her future dog. I think she’s still at the point where she sees a dog doing protection, or obedience…and it all looks amazing. Mostly because her dog doesn’t do it so anything more than what her dog does…is just amazing. But that’s not how you should look at it…you need a better understanding of what is going on with the dog and what it really is presenting. So even if she goes around and meets a bunch of breeders and sees their dogs…every single one of them is going to look amazing.


Yep that's exactly where I am and that's why I'm not getting a dog yet. I keep saying I will defer to my trainer on these decisions and you keep missing those words. 

also I would not get the dog by myself. I have a few people I can ask for opinion and to help me pick one. I will need to trust them if by then I don't know enough to pick on my own. 

I'm very generous with my knowledge, I'm hoping people in this sport will be too


ETA not true. I already know some things I want in my future dog. I won't know how to pick a dog that has them but I already know some of the things I want. 

But yeah, I def need to watch a lot before I do anything. That's why I've been trying to join a club. No luck but I'm stubborn, it will happen


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I don't know your trainer...but I automatically don't really like helpers/trainers that tell people their dog cant' do X after a few weeks of work with them. Not trying everything. I've also met plenty of GSD trainers that I would never trust to help me make a purchasing decision. I get it, you trust the person, but you also have very little experience in evaluating trainer talent.

From the sounds of it...your trainer would've dismissed my bitch after a few weeks. She didn't even look at a rag on a flirt pole...like ZERO reaction. Practicing the textbook definition of avoidance. And a few months later...


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

lalachka said:


> Oh i see what he means.
> for me it's def about the journey. I want to learn how to train a dog to do all these things and then enjoy watching him do it.


If this is the case and you love your dog so much, I would stick with the dog you have in front of you for a while and put some work in on him. Even if he doesn't do it well, you will learn about it and what to do with a future puppy and learn from other clubs members. 

I have a 5 y/o GSD that I brought up knowing nothing about dog sports. We tried a few things. I squashed his drive doing obedience. He was very reactive. He had some weird human aggression issues for a little over a year, and a lot of people told me I had a liability, a nerve bag, should euth him, etc. Well, I didn't. I worked through that and some medical issues and we started agility, lure coursing, dock diving, nose work, and rally together. He even did some herding. He was awesome. I let those other people's comments and things that I saw online (videos and articles and such) hinder my view of what was in front of me though, despite that, and I thought I needed a new dog to do better stuff with. I thought he was broke. 

Ha! I got my border collie for agility, and yes we are having a ball and compete and win often, but Frag (the 5y/o GSD) could be doing the same thing still with just a little more effort. He doesn't have as much drive or speed, but he could still get his MACH. He can herd better than my collie. He is just as good at dock diving. 

I was surprised how normal and functioning he was after getting a few more dogs and realizing Frag could easily do these things despite my mistakes earlier in his life. I don't know what I think about his nerves any longer, because a lot of people projected their opinions and beliefs onto him. Patton is starting IPO soon and I'll be taking Frag with for an evaluation. It wouldn't surprise me if he could train in IPO, too. And I NEVER would have thought that three years ago.

Just food for thought. I'm not bummed that I got new dogs, and they all get to do stuff, but I so could have done this stuff with Frag. 

Guess what? There were people telling me that at the time when I was getting another dog, too. Just like they are you, now.


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## osito23 (Feb 17, 2014)

Lala, if I were you, I would take a step back. You've made a lot of progress with your dog over the past few weeks. Be proud of that! And definitely keep working on his basic manners and reactivity. But maybe you're overdoing the formal obedience with him. 2 hours a day is a lot...you have to build up to that. Especially if your dog isn't naturally drivey. I've said it before and I'll say it again, but I think the most important thing for an inexperienced dog owner starting off in sport is to have a great trainer. Watching videos and reading forums is fun, but there is no substitute for having an experienced eye watch you, the dog, and how you interact together. I don't think this sport trainer needs to be an IPO trainer either...there are great trainers in many disciplines. You're in NYC. If IPO clubs aren't accommodating, then why not look into an AKC obedience club? Have you ever watched an AKC obedience trial? Dogs there have flashy obedience too. Or what about agility? You can't tell me that those dogs aren't having fun. IPO can still be the end goal, but you have to start somewhere, and doing anything with your dog will teach you more than not.

Maybe you're doing too much too fast. I can't see you working with your dog; I can only go off of your posts here. You're always trying new things and often talk of your dog shutting down and going into avoidance. If that were happening with my dog, then I would take a break from the formal obedience for a bit. This doesn't mean allowing him to be a jerk around the house, but just letting him be a dog for a bit. He's young and still maturing. Make sure he's having fun, play games with him, try to build up his confidence. Give him a few weeks off. We all need a vacation sometimes, after all.  

While you take a break from working with your dog, why don't you get out there and check out different training venues. Please don't limit yourself to just IPO clubs. There's so much more to dog sports and dog training out there. Just go and watch people work with their dogs. Go with an open mind and talk to people there. Start making connections with people. Then get out there and do something with your dog. He's a GSD - he'll do well in something! 

As for getting a new puppy for IPO...I don't blame you for wanting a dog that can do the sport well. But I agree that you have a lot to learn about the sport, training, and what to look for in a dog. So keep getting out there. If a club will let you watch them train, then get out there and watch, even without your dog. There should be fall trials coming up that you can watch and learn. Get out there, learn, network. Things will fall into place; just don't rush into anything.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

martemchik said:


> I don't know your trainer...but I automatically don't really like helpers/trainers that tell people their dog cant' do X after a few weeks of work with them. Not trying everything. I've also met plenty of GSD trainers that I would never trust to help me make a purchasing decision. I get it, you trust the person, but you also have very little experience in evaluating trainer talent.
> 
> From the sounds of it...your trainer would've dismissed my bitch after a few weeks. She didn't even look at a rag on a flirt pole...like ZERO reaction. Practicing the textbook definition of avoidance. And a few months later...


I can only go on name and reputation. He's also not the first one that told me this. 

As i said, I like ME style the most but i can't find anyone here who trains like that (same balance of positive and negative) and all I've done is wasted a lot of time looking and trying diff trainers. 

while they all say I have a nice dog (he has many amazing qualities) all agree he's not a sport dog. 

Up until a few weeks ago I was ready to make him into one no matter how much work it took until someone mentioned that it wouldn't be fair to him if he doesn't enjoy it. 

I thought about it and I agree. So the next few months will be spent training with this guy and seeing how he likes it.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> If this is the case and you love your dog so much, I would stick with the dog you have in front of you for a while and put some work in on him. Even if he doesn't do it well, you will learn about it and what to do with a future puppy and learn from other clubs members.
> 
> I have a 5 y/o GSD that I brought up knowing nothing about dog sports. We tried a few things. I squashed his drive doing obedience. He was very reactive. He had some weird human aggression issues for a little over a year, and a lot of people told me I had a liability, a nerve bag, should euth him, etc. Well, I didn't. I worked through that and some medical issues and we started agility, lure coursing, dock diving, nose work, and rally together. He even did some herding. He was awesome. I let those other people's comments and things that I saw online (videos and articles and such) hinder my view of what was in front of me though, despite that, and I thought I needed a new dog to do better stuff with. I thought he was broke.
> 
> ...


I'm only interested in ipo or something similar. I want to try protection too. I think dogs showing aggression and fight look magnificent. I want to have a dog that I can do it with. 

That was my plan, to do what it takes and do it with my dog until someone mentioned that it might not be fair to him if he doesn't enjoy it 
I agree. 

So I will see how he does the next few months. It will all depend on my trainer. I decided to stick with him and see what he thinks about everything. see what he says in a few months. And go from there.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

osito23 said:


> Lala, if I were you, I would take a step back. You've made a lot of progress with your dog over the past few weeks. Be proud of that! And definitely keep working on his basic manners and reactivity. But maybe you're overdoing the formal obedience with him. 2 hours a day is a lot...you have to build up to that. Especially if your dog isn't naturally drivey. I've said it before and I'll say it again, but I think the most important thing for an inexperienced dog owner starting off in sport is to have a great trainer. Watching videos and reading forums is fun, but there is no substitute for having an experienced eye watch you, the dog, and how you interact together. I don't think this sport trainer needs to be an IPO trainer either...there are great trainers in many disciplines. You're in NYC. If IPO clubs aren't accommodating, then why not look into an AKC obedience club? Have you ever watched an AKC obedience trial? Dogs there have flashy obedience too. Or what about agility? You can't tell me that those dogs aren't having fun. IPO can still be the end goal, but you have to start somewhere, and doing anything with your dog will teach you more than not.
> 
> Maybe you're doing too much too fast. I can't see you working with your dog; I can only go off of your posts here. You're always trying new things and often talk of your dog shutting down and going into avoidance. If that were happening with my dog, then I would take a break from the formal obedience for a bit. This doesn't mean allowing him to be a jerk around the house, but just letting him be a dog for a bit. He's young and still maturing. Make sure he's having fun, play games with him, try to build up his confidence. Give him a few weeks off. We all need a vacation sometimes, after all.
> 
> ...


We don't train for 2 hours a day lol. We stay out for at least 2 hours and do a few sessions of things every half hour or so
Also 1 or 2 short sessions in the afternoon. 

my dog doesn't shut down and avoid all the time. This is what happened when he was evaluated. So 3 times he was evaluated and 3 times he avoided to diff degrees. 

I have a trainer, I just started training regularly with him. But I've been at it for a year, mostly on my own and with a few sessions with trainers here and there. 

I'm only interested in ipo. 

I don't know what impression I give off lol. My dog isn't worked to death for sure. We have 4 sessions a day if that. The rest of the time he's running the woods or with his friend or we play or sit on the grass or the many things I like doing with him. He's def not overworked. Far from it. I'd say I csn do more.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

One more thing. I knew I wanted one more dog a month after I got mine. So this isn't something new. I just feel that now he's finally under control and that I can bring another dog in. 

So I'm going to get another dog, that's for sure. I'm holding out as much as I can because I want to learn as much as possible so I can avoid as many mistakes as possible.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

lalachka said:


> I think dogs showing aggression and fight look magnificent. I want to have a dog that I can do it with.


This is the second time I've seen you describe protection this way...and it tells me you don't have the slightest idea of what to look for in an IPO dog.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

martemchik said:


> This is the second time I've seen you describe protection this way...and it tells me you don't have the slightest idea of what to look for in an IPO dog.


I agree, I don't. So what's your point?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

You said you know some things you want in your future dog for IPO. I just pointed out how you don't.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

martemchik said:


> You said you know some things you want in your future dog for IPO. I just pointed out how you don't.


Not for protection. Not even for ipo really. I know some things I want in my future dog. I also said that I wouldn't know how to point them out in a dog so I'd need help.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

lalachka said:


> I'm only interested in ipo or something similar. I want to try protection too. I think dogs showing aggression and fight look magnificent. I want to have a dog that I can do it with.
> 
> That was my plan, to do what it takes and do it with my dog until someone mentioned that it might not be fair to him if he doesn't enjoy it
> I agree.
> ...


The thing is, someone mentioned that he didn't look like he enjoyed it because he doesn't understand. You can build drive, you can find other trainers, you can work on things better, and when he actually understands it, the chances of him liking it go way up.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> The thing is, someone mentioned that he didn't look like he enjoyed it because he doesn't understand. You can build drive, you can find other trainers, you can work on things better, and when he actually understands it, the chances of him liking it go way up.


That's what I'm hoping for. That in the next few months of training with the same trainer using one method he understand what's asked of him and grows to like it 

We have some sessions that go really well and because of that I have hope. 

I'm not bouncing around anymore. i want to stick to something already. He def knows what he's doing. I will just follow and not question everything. Besides, who am I to question his methods. He's proven they work. I haven't proven anything yet.

ETA it wasn't just people here that said that. Bottom line is, I tried doing it on my own with ME videos and it didn't work. I don't know if it's me or him but I didn't get too far. So I need help. I can't find anyone here that will train me with similar methods and bouncing around while following the videos hasn't worked. I don't want to waste anymore time


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

also, a month ago I found a trainer that seemed to follow what I like, using treats to learn and correcting when the dog knows. 

On our second session he said that my dog won't take food (he wouldn't from him but he did from me though not as pushy as I'd like) and the rest of the session was popping the prong. 

Yes, my dog is timid in new places with new people. he also doesn't have over the top drives. I was hoping to find someone who taught me how to build drive, how to learn to motivate him and I always end up with leash pops.


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## lauren43 (Jun 14, 2014)

The one factor that really bothers me is your obsession with IPO. I don't think you understand the value of learning about other dog sports. Just because you love IPO and it's what you want to do and you are obsessed with GSDs doesn't mean there isn't knowledge to be found in other venues.

We are dead opposite. IPO is the one thing I'm not totally sold on. I'm more than willing to give it a try because the breeder would like him titled, but we will be involved in every other dog sport without question (including; agility, flyball, obedience, lure coursing, and possibly herding and dock diving if I can find it...weight pull as well, when he's old enough)


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

lauren43 said:


> The one factor that really bothers me is your obsession with IPO. I don't think you understand the value of learning about other dog sports. Just because you love IPO and it's what you want to do and you are obsessed with GSDs doesn't mean there isn't knowledge to be found in other venues.
> 
> We are dead opposite. IPO is the one thing I'm not totally sold on. I'm more than willing to give it a try because the breeder would like him titled, but we will be involved in every other dog sport without question (including; agility, flyball, obedience, lure coursing, and possibly herding and dock diving if I can find it...weight pull as well, when he's old enough)


I don't know why it bothers you. Some people can like more than one thing at once. I'm usually set on one thing, that goes for dog breeds, dog sports, clothes, food and many other things.


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## osito23 (Feb 17, 2014)

lalachka said:


> We don't train for 2 hours a day lol. We stay out for at least 2 hours and do a few sessions of things every half hour or so
> Also 1 or 2 short sessions in the afternoon.
> 
> my dog doesn't shut down and avoid all the time. This is what happened when he was evaluated. So 3 times he was evaluated and 3 times he avoided to diff degrees.
> ...


My advice stays the same. You come across as a well meaning but inexperienced and inconsistent dog owner trying to train a sport dog when you don't even understand what it is. There is a saying that no training is better than bad training. Do you understand how to build drive? Do you know how to maintain drive while working? And that still sounds like too much formal OB work to me. Outside of class, I may do 1-2 training sessions that are only 5-10 min long each. Some days we don't do anything at all. You want to quit when the dog wants to work and pushes you for more. OB should not be a chore. And I think that only being interested in IPO and dismissing any other training venues is a mistake. You could learn so much about dogs and training that could easily translate to IPO training. Being close minded is never a good way to learn.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

osito23 said:


> My advice stays the same. You come across as a well meaning but inexperienced and inconsistent dog owner trying to train a sport dog when you don't even understand what it is. There is a saying that no training is better than bad training. Do you understand how to build drive? Do you know how to maintain drive while working? And that still sounds like too much formal OB work to me. Outside of class, I may do 1-2 training sessions that are only 5-10 min long each. Some days we don't do anything at all. You want to quit when the dog wants to work and pushes you for more. OB should not be a chore. And I think that only being interested in IPO and dismissing any other training venues is a mistake. You could learn so much about dogs and training that could easily translate to IPO training. Being close minded is never a good way to learn.


I'm just starting training for ipo and I'm doing that with a trainer. I don't know how many times I repeated that already. 

What I was doing starting last year was just following ME videos hoping to learn how to motivate my dog into being able to train him for fun.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Lala, you are working with a good trainer now. He knows what he is doing. Stick with it and even if your current dog proves not to have what is needed for IPO than at least he will have taught you a lot along the way.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

lhczth said:


> Lala, you are working with a good trainer now. He knows what he is doing. Stick with it and even if your current dog proves not to have what is needed for IPO than at least he will have taught you a lot along the way.


I am. Def sticking with it. Can't wait for Sundays, I'm that excited. Thank you )))


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

lhczth said:


> Lala, you are working with a good trainer now. He knows what he is doing. Stick with it and even if your current dog proves not to have what is needed for IPO than at least he will have taught you a lot along the way.


I agree with this. I'm not sure what all the nay saying is about, you have someone who can help you/your dog get started toward your goal. If your current dog gets to a point where its no longer fair/fun, you'll look for a more suitable dog. I say go for it, your not even committed to the second dog at this point, you have time to research that as you go. I hope it all works out for you.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Nigel said:


> I agree with this. I'm not sure what all the nay saying is about, you have someone who can help you/your dog get started toward your goal. If your current dog gets to a point where its no longer fair/fun, you'll look for a more suitable dog. I say go for it, your not even committed to the second dog at this point, you have time to research that as you go. I hope it all works out for you.


Thank you. I also don't get it. I keep saying I will give it a few months and see what he thinks about everything (my trainer) 

I do want another dog at some point. I knew that last year. But i also want to know more than I do today when I get the second dog so I really hope I can do a lot with mine.


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## wolfmanusf (Apr 5, 2012)

lalachka said:


> this is from another thread.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


To go back to your original question. It depends on the temperament of the dog and the training abilities of the trainer on how much correction to use. My first IPO dog was a crazy-ass malinois who was constantly pushing me. My lack of training experience and ability made me go to a lot of correction and compulsion. I would say 60% reward-40% compulsion. The dog still looked happy and wanted to work, but we had a strained relationship that surfaced in many different aspects. With my current dog, if I had to put a % on it, it would be 90% reward, 10% compulsion. When I do use correction, it is meaningful. I see many people nagging with meaningless corrections so eventually the dog learns to work through it and more and more compulsion is needed. Many people do not video their corrections because of the increasingly crazy positive only crowd (that's a topic for another time).

As for your situation with your dog. I can relate. My first dog sounds very similar to yours. She was a boxer that had little food or toy drive. I was able to learn how to get her going a little bit with a lot of work, and I learned so much from that experience. I think it is essential to teach your dog behaviors, especially when starting out without using corrections. From your description of the dog, it may be entirely possible that the only chance you would ever title it is strictly through compulsion. To me, that is not worth it. I would learn as much as I possibly could without using correction with this dog. Find a trainer that realizes you are trying to become a better trainer. In this instance, titling the dog should be a secondary possible benefit. Once you feel like you have gotten this dog as far as you can, let it become a nice sofa dog and get a pup that may be better.

I hope this helps. sorry for wordy answer.

Good Luck!


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

onyx'girl said:


> Not everyone is out to finish first or have a 3 by 3. For some it is about the journey, and the dog they have in front of them.
> Learning is constantly happening.
> And for some the end goal is to title for breeding purposes. We all have different reasons for being in the sport....hopefully everyone enjoys it and being fair to the dog they are working is most important.


Off course one has to account for the tail end of the distribution, it could take 8 years for some but that raises chance of serious injury to the dog. A journey is a defined course, otherwise it becomes aimless wandering.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

From the other thread



wolfmanusf said:


> Unfortunately, I cannot put a number on the expense. I am lucky enough to be within a couple hours of multiple world competitors and helpers. My costs are mitigated by the fact that I do helperwork for them, so we usually just trade services. Before I became an experienced, decent helper, it was $500/yr for club dues, I would estimate $50/wk gas, $200/yr equipment, etc... Ultimately, for me it is about the cost of a monthly gym membership, but atleast where I am from, dog training usually consists of people doing six session of obedience training at Petsmart for $100.
> 
> In my experience, people primarily give up for two reasons: 1.) *Time*. It takes a long time to get a dog trained to be ready to trial. We are in an instant gratification world and this sport is definitely not that. Club training can also take a large chunk of your day away, and some people are just not willing to give that up. 2.) Just a feeling of being in over your head. The first club I went to there was a handler getting ready for a world championship. At the time, I was trying, unsuccessfully I might add, to get my dog to walk to loose leash. So when I saw the world team member, I almost didn't go back because it was just so **** intimidating. Luckily, my stubbornness wore through and I kept coming back and it has become one of the most rewarding things in my life.
> 
> Hope that answers your questions.


I pay 400 or 500 a month. I can't do that for a long time

Thank you, you answered it, that's what I was hoping for, an estimate. 

Yes, lucky you are. I've thought about moving because of how hard it's been for me to find a club. 

Lolol at your loose leash story. Yeah, when I look at all these people train I start feeling like a loser. I'm also stubborn so I think I will get somewhere with this. 
out of your reasons the only one that might knock me off my feet is feeling like I'm not getting anywhere. Though I doubt I'd quit. 

Time will tell


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

lalachka said:


> From the other thread
> 
> 
> 
> I pay 400 or 500 a mont!


Crap, Jason was right that we have it good in the south. Costs us that much for a year, 2-3 sessions A,B and C per week! (plus gas off course).


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

wolfmanusf said:


> To go back to your original question. It depends on the temperament of the dog and the training abilities of the trainer on how much correction to use. My first IPO dog was a crazy-ass malinois who was constantly pushing me. My lack of training experience and ability made me go to a lot of correction and compulsion. I would say 60% reward-40% compulsion. The dog still looked happy and wanted to work, but we had a strained relationship that surfaced in many different aspects. With my current dog, if I had to put a % on it, it would be 90% reward, 10% compulsion. When I do use correction, it is meaningful. I see many people nagging with meaningless corrections so eventually the dog learns to work through it and more and more compulsion is needed. Many people do not video their corrections because of the increasingly crazy positive only crowd (that's a topic for another time).
> 
> As for your situation with your dog. I can relate. My first dog sounds very similar to yours. She was a boxer that had little food or toy drive. I was able to learn how to get her going a little bit with a lot of work, and I learned so much from that experience. I think it is essential to teach your dog behaviors, especially when starting out without using corrections. From your description of the dog, it may be entirely possible that the only chance you would ever title it is strictly through compulsion. To me, that is not worth it. I would learn as much as I possibly could without using correction with this dog. Find a trainer that realizes you are trying to become a better trainer. In this instance, titling the dog should be a secondary possible benefit. Once you feel like you have gotten this dog as far as you can, let it become a nice sofa dog and get a pup that may be better.
> 
> ...


I like to read so I like wordy answers 

Thank you for the percentages. I like them and I like your correction views. Yeah. AR groups lol. I opened a thread on them a while ago and disnt get one reply. Too bad, would love to hear from people on this. 

Yep, this is why I'm thinking of another dog. Because of the fact that he's not as driven and has some nerve problems the trainers have me use more force than I'd prefer. It's not a lot but I'd like to avoid it. 

I'm glad you understand my doubts. I am sometimes taken by surprise with some of the replies I get. 


I did tell him that I just want to learn to train, that there are no issues we need fixed, that this is strictly about me becoming a better trainer, as you said. 

By the way, this is NOT about the trainer. I want to make sure it doesn't sound like I'm complaining about him or his training style because I'm not. He's amazing, accomplished and I'm sure he sees things in my dog that make him train us the way he does. 

But i do hope that at some point my dog relaxes there, maybe tugs with me and then the trainer can show me what I'm doing wrong and hopefully teach me about drive and motivation. 

At the park he plays with me pretty well. Also his obedience is not bad, he seems excited about it most of the time. So I think he has it in him. But then other times (this morning I was at my friend's backyard training our dogs together and he kept licking his lips, ignoring commands, when she yelled a command to her dog he broke his down and ran to me. It pains me to see this stuff. ) I can tell he's stressed. I wish I knew how to help.


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## ugavet2012 (Apr 15, 2010)

I paid even less than that for a year when I lived in the south 

So I have a few general things I tell people when they see me out with my dogs IRL. My IPO dogs are probably more obedient IRL than on the field at this point because I haven't formally trained in over a year now. 

Part of the equation is absolutely "the dog." What I mean is I have no issue at all with 2 of my dogs off leash (they don't wander very far, turn on a dime to come to me, etc) and it took very little time to get there. The other 2 were trained to recall under distraction with an e-collar, after initially teaching them what I wanted (this took months). They didn't have opportunities to not come when called without that collar on for a long time. I didn't worry about them being collar smart, I worried about consistentcy and teaching them it was just unacceptable to not come. 

When I start training with a new dog or puppy, everything is about interaction, engagement, play, teaching them their name and focus........for weeks and weeks. I do ME style food chasing games, bond with them, play with them, and I do these things in different environments, not just at home. I am very concerned with teaching a dog to work for me, not just food or toys. The food chasing games work well for me for this because eventually my dogs just see me doing those "motions" with no food on me at all even and amp up/go up in drive--they enjoy the interaction with me, and that's what I want them to eventually work for so I don't have to carry treats or toys everywhere. 

Every dog has food drive, it's just a matter of finding what it takes to bring it out. I posted in another thread a lengthy response on the types of treats I use in picky dogs. I have also done missed meals. So theoretically every dog should be able to play food games. 

A huge part of having an obedient dog is BEING ABLE TO GET THEIR ATTENTION! Teaching a trick/command is the easy part. This fact is lost on the general population. This is why I see dog owners constantly in my exam rooms at work yelling "sit, sit,siiiit, SIT" and their dog just standing there with a frustrated owner wondering out loud why their dog won't sit when "he always does it at home." This for me is not a situation I would correct the dog for not obeying a command. If they had the dogs attention, most likely it would sit just fine. 

Therefore I make it a priority that my dogs know their "names" and respond to them in all sorts of different situations. Once I am certain they know to look at me when I say their name, I will correct for disobedience to that. For me I think the vast majority of the time that dogs do not respond to known commands is because we don't have their focus/attention or they don't generalize well /don't understand, not because they are "choosing" to not follow the command. So rarely will I correct for not sitting, downing, etc. This has worked very well for me through several of my own dogs now, and other peoples' I have helped train as well. 

Just my thoughts on things I have learned over the years now since I was in a similar position/train of thought as lalachka.

FWIW, I have not trained a dog through IPO3, not even all the way through a 1. But I have good, obedient dogs IRL that are enjoyable, and I can safely take places. When I took them to the Outer Banks, nearly every person who passed by or we passed while walking along the beach commented how very well behaved they were. I doubt any of those people knew or cared what IPO was.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

My dog def has food drive. Probably not over the top but enough to train with. I also skip meals and also, the past month he gets all food from my hands outside. Whether it's for doing something or food games but it comes from my hands. 

And yes, I know it's all about learning how to get their attention. That's what I've been trying this last year. I have progress, I'm not saying I didn't get anywhere at all but not enough. 

I also get compliments on how obedient he is )))
It doesn't take much for the general public. Dog sits and they're awed. I've had people ask me if I'm a trainer when they see my sad attempts at training. I'm not being cute either, I suck pretty bad. I see it myself just not sure how to fix it. Hopefully trainer ell help.
So yeah general public complimenting doesn't mean much though it def feels good to hear it.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Oh yeah, I forgot about the main reason I'm doubting trying protection with my dog. My favorite lol ME said that some dogs shouldn't be trained in protection. Not as a law but he describes his ethical views and to me they make sense. 
He explains that if a dog has nerve problems then he can push him a little and the dog will bite but then that dog has learned to bite when he's stressed and coupled with his nerve problems it becomes a liability. 

I butchered his thoughts but I'm sure you get the idea. 

What do you guys think?

I'm not asking for advice, I will let my trainer decide whether he wants to work with him but these are the things I will be asking about (whether it's ethical and whether my dog seems to enjoy training) 

I'm just wondering how people feel about it 
Gator god titled a dog that she said didn't have the nerves for it 
Maybe she replies about her thoughts and how she was able to find someone who agreed to put in the time into helping her train.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I 100% agree that a dog with poor nerves should not ever be trained in bite work. Any dog that is exposed to bite work needs to have nerves of granite and be crystal clear in the head. Why create a potential liabilty. I have zero issues with doing bite work with my male becasue he is very clear headed, has great nerves, amazing self control and loves to work. I have pulled my female from bite work though. She is not showing me the clarity and nerve I need to see to continue with her. She is a pet first and foremost and safety is my first priority.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

robk said:


> I 100% agree that a dog with poor nerves should not ever be trained in bite work. Any dog that is exposed to bite work needs to have nerves of granite and be crystal clear in the head. Why create a potential liabilty. I have zero issues with doing bite work with my male becasue he is very clear headed, has great nerves, amazing self control and loves to work. I have pulled my female from bite work though. She is not showing me the clarity and nerve I need to see to continue with her. She is a pet first and foremost and safety is my first priority.


I also agree. That's why I'm having all these doubts. 
that and the feeling that he's not enjoying it. 

In any case, the plan stays the same for now, few months of obedience and see what happens. 

About your female. did you get her for sport? From a good breeder? So you can get a dog from a good breeder and still not have a dog suitable for sport?


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

lalachka said:


> I also agree. That's why I'm having all these doubts.
> that and the feeling that he's not enjoying it.
> 
> In any case, the plan stays the same for now, few months of obedience and see what happens.
> ...


Yes, she has excellent blood lines too. And she bites like an Aligator. However, she is way to suspicious and when she does bite work she looses her head. It was a judgement call but I decided for the time being that bitework would not be a good idea.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

robk said:


> Yes, she has excellent blood lines too. And she bites like an Aligator. However, she is way to suspicious and when she does bite work she looses her head. It was a judgement call but I decided for the time being that bitework would not be a good idea.


Really responsible of you. I'm sure that wasn't an easy decision.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

lalachka said:


> Really responsible of you. I'm sure that wasn't an easy decision.


No. It was a let down. However, I think that you have to be able to make responsible decisions for your dogs and for the general public if you are going to be involved in bite sports.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I have no social issues doing bite work with my male, and he doesn't have the greatest nerve. I just made complete control my number 1 priority in his training.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

GatorDog said:


> I have no social issues doing bite work with my male, and he doesn't have the greatest nerve. I just made complete control my number 1 priority in his training.


Were you able to use food with him in training? One of my issues is that at the trainer's he's not as interested in food. Actually in any new place. 

We're you able to use toys in training? How were his drives?
How long did it take you to get him to tug or he did right away?
And the main one. How did you find someone willing to put in the time into a dog that needs that much more work. 

Of course I can keep paying for private session but i can't afford it for too long so I'm hoping for a club and I think I will have a problem finding people that will want to put the time into a dog that needs so much extra work. 

I hope I'm wrong.

ETA what's complete control? Being able to call him off anything? Or...?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

robk said:


> No. It was a let down. However, I think that you have to be able to make responsible decisions for your dogs and for the general public if you are going to be involved in bite sports.


I had a trainer tell me he can get him to bite, that was one of the ones where he avoided. I just reiterated the ME thing and we left it at that. I'm not sure how to feel about it yet. 
I trust the trainer I'm with now all the way so I will go with his opinion. Def won't press it if he says no.

What I'm saying is that my dog hasn't been labeled nervy yet. I'm sure I'm right about what I'm seeing but so far it's just me saying it. So I will see what he thinks.


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## Sagan (Apr 27, 2013)

I've read training any dog in bite work creates a liability no matter how solid the nerves are. Especially to the laymen and court system. That is to say if your dog trained in bite work and mistakenly bites, the owner has a lot more fault than if that dog wasn't trained in the protection work.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Sagan said:


> I've read training any dog in bite work creates a liability no matter how solid the nerves are. Especially to the laymen and court system. That is to say if your dog trained in bite work and mistakenly bites, the owner has a lot more fault than if that dog wasn't trained in the protection work.


I wasn't even thinking in terms of liability, I'm just thinking in terms of doing the right thing. I understand that no matter the nerves, if the dog bites and he was protection trained, even for sport, them that makes it a heavier offense. 

However, interesting you said that. I also read on leerburg something that hinted that the dogs do become more dangerous, for lack of a better word. People here say that with solid dogs that's not true
I don't know one way or the other


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## wolfmanusf (Apr 5, 2012)

I often equate teaching a dog protection to teaching a kid martial arts. You are teaching an "aggressive" behavior but also a lot of control and discipline. 99% of the time it is going to make the kid/dog better. There is always exceptions to the rule. I would say that a dog that is very prone to lashing out in aggression with no provocation should not be trained in protection. 

As far as whether you should teach your dog protection... I have a very simple test. Does the dog look like it is enjoying it? Nearly any dog can be driven to bite, but to me it is not worth it if the dog is not enjoying the work.


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## wolfmanusf (Apr 5, 2012)

Also I have no problems with liability because I am smart with the way I handle my dogs. I don't put them into any situations that I am not 100% comfortable with. It would be that way whether it was my Yorkie that I had in college or my crazy malinois. I control the environment so that the chances of anything bad happening is as close to zero as possible.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I'm not worrying about liability in the sense it might sound. If my dog bites someone for me the end of the world already came, whether he was trained for it or not. 
I'd like to think I'm responsible)))))) 

I'm more concerned about doing the right thing. 
What if the dog is enjoying it but has weak nerves? 

My dog seems to enjoy attacking my cat 
Also looks pretty content barking at dogs. 

In any case, none of this has to be decided today. I'm light years away from protection. I just decided I want to train for ipo about a month ago and only had 3 or 4 sessions. I'm just starting out. 

It creeped up on me. The was the last thing I thought I'd ever be interested in.


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

I didn't read all the pages, but based on something that I see popping up a lot, I am going to tell you about my experiences with protection training and how I have managed to learn a lot WITHOUT having a dog who is competitive. 

I worked with one trainer. He had different clients with different dogs, and even if I was only there with my dog, I stayed and watched -EVERY- dog that he worked with. Why? Because I could see him at his craft, I could see how he helped encourage the dog, how he helped manipulate the situation to get the best out of the dog and the best part was that at the end of it all, even when he was working with you, he always explained why he was doing it!

While he didn't do much training for sport involved, he had a lot of different tricks up his sleeve and decades of experience in not only sport but in real working situations also. He wanted to know what your goal was, and he would look at the dog and just see what would happen. 

My Leia bombed her instinct test hardcore. She just stared when he tried to engage prey drive. And when he tried to get a rise out of her defensively, she took a step to the side and looked away. Leia was never a fearful dog with people. She is a social dog actually with people. She will happily walk up to say hello to everyone we meet. Based on how she acted, most trainers would have just said, nothing can happen. Don't even bother. 

The trainer asked if she ever barked at someone in the car before.

We changed our tactic completely, using the car to help build her defense and within five sessions, Leia never needed the car again when we went out for practice. She knew what was coming and she frankly drags my fat behind so I nearly fall on my face for a chance to bite that sleeve and yell at the trainer. Who is really a great sport and laughs at her enthusiasm. 

My girl was 3 months shy of her 5th birthday when we went out for protection, with my hopes to get a bark and hold out of her - which we have accomplished. Sadly the helper has moved upstate to go to get his masters for the next two years, and finding a decoy his caliber is a bit hard. Leia is mostly defense. That sleeve means nothing to her.

This dog held the sleeve, even with a yelp of pain, and stood over it, yelling at the trainer as he ran behind his truck so I could check her for injury. Only after he was "hidden" did she turn the aggressive barks into yelps and spin in a circle holding her leg up. I tried all kinds of things to get no obvious answer. But nothing was going to stop her. She stood on those three legs, staring that man down, daring him to try something.

This from a dog who did zero anything when she was tested. 

Go out and learn by watching. Learn by asking. Try to change your tactic with how you make the rewards interesting. Leia and I had a really rocky first year with a ton of frustration and miscommunications. Now I trust my girl with my life and I know she's happier than she's ever been. She stays at my side, even when nervous. I couldn't have asked for a better dog. But we had to learn how to talk to each other and how to motivate each other to let us be the team we've become.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Sagan said:


> I've read training any dog in bite work creates a liability no matter how solid the nerves are. Especially to the laymen and court system. That is to say if your dog trained in bite work and mistakenly bites, the owner has a lot more fault than if that dog wasn't trained in the protection work.


When someone's dog bites someone, that person is ALWAYS liable. Those cases go before a judge who hears everything out and decides. If a person with a rap sheet a mile long breaks into my house to steal my computer, kicks my dog, and my dog bites him back, I'm liable for that bite and he can take me to court. That doesn't mean he will WIN or has any grounds for the suit, but in the USA you can still take a person to court and go through the process. I know plenty of people who have never done or even heard of bitework whose dogs have bitten people and they've been held liable for those bites and had to pay medical bills or have the dog destroyed.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I think the problem with this question is that you don't 100% understand what "weak nerves" is until you get out there and see a lot of dogs doing it. When you try and figure things out on the internet, by taking a poll of strangers, you're already beginning to doubt yourself and your dog.

At this point...you have no idea where your dog stacks up in regards to his nerve strength. From what I read...he's no where near the worst dog I've ever actually seen get put through IPO.

There is a broad scale of nerve...just like there is with drive. And until you see 20, 30, 100 dogs work...you have no idea if your dog is high or low.

The only dogs I don't like seeing do bite work, are total spooks. The unpredictable, react to most things, but not really anything in particular dogs. But then there are also dogs that through their upbringing just don’t have confidence. They weren’t allowed to ever make their own decisions, and so they don’t have any confidence. IPO has a way of giving a dog their spirit back, giving them the confidence that they are pretty powerful and that they don’t need to react to things.

I think there is a huge block in this case with a need to title and be great. There shouldn't be that need. You should just want to train the dog and not have IPO3 national qualifier as your goal. It's your first dog. Even if you had the perfect dog for IPO, the chances of you getting to that level is slim to none. With the guidance of the world's greatest trainer you wouldn't get there...because you don't have the knowledge yourself to do things on your own and advance the dog without making mistakes. I started IPO work almost a year ago now. Two dogs, 4 and 3. It kind of looks like maybe I'll be able to trial next year. If not...oh well...the training is so much more fun anyways. The fact that my dog doesn't have an IPO title doesn't affect me one bit.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Yeah my trainer will decide whether he's nervy or not. 
I already know that he's not the worst out there. One of them told me that and said that for a 300 puppy mill dog I got a really good dog. 

You and collie got lucky with trainers that are willing to put in the work into dogs that are not the best. My trainer is insanely busy, he has so many good dogs to work with that he probably feels like this isn't worth his time. 

I can't keep paying for private sessions for too long so I will need to find someone who wants to take us and so far it hasn't happened. 

I said before that if I found someone who took us then I'd wait another year or two for another dog. 

Also, to me it's not about the title. I want to learn to train well enough to be able to title. The title itself doesn't mean anything. At least now. Maybe it will later. 

And yes, this weekend we will drive to the 2 clubs I can't get in touch with. Also will ask my trainer for permission to go watch his.


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

I got extremely lucky. The man who I worked with charged 15 bucks a session and while you worked the dogs twenty minutes or so, you could talk with him for hours about dog training. He explained things, he took on any dog he could work with. I seriously miss working with him and I know my girl does too. 

Another thing, since your dog isn't as drivey as you want, I know letting Leia watch another dog do an object guard got her thinking. My trainer had a woman who wanted her shepherd mix to do a bark and hold keep it tied to a tree while they were working other dogs. One day after some time she barked suddenly. The trainer took advantage and they were able to start working with the dog and she was a solid dog after that. 

Only way to learn is to get out and be a part of it. Maybe your dog is a challenge, but if you will pay, who cares? Learning with a more challenging dog can be helpful if anything to teach you to adapt and keep calm.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Yeah I will see what happens in the next few months. I wish I didn't have to pay 100 a session though. It's the same 20 mins except that I don't get to talk for hours. I will see if he lets me stay and watch this sunday.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

$100 per session? Thats ridiculous.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

robk said:


> $100 per session? Thats ridiculous.


Why?? It's cheap. Some pet trainers charge 300 an hour. For his skill and name it's not ridiculous. I just can't afford it too long


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I think 100 per session is outrageous. Are you doing all three phases in this? His name and skill are who he is, I hope you are getting your money's worth. I pay $30 for ob and protection with a good helper and we don't track. But his body is getting battered by my dog.
My own club, I feel bad for the helpers, they don't get paid at all(other than the food I bring along) and the helperwork is very, very good. Because I love training, I go to a pay to train as my club only meets once a week.
And why wouldn't he 'let you stay' to watch other training? Learning is done thru observing. I've gone to club often without a dog just to sit and learn/observe. Even with my pay to train, I would go early leave late while others would only be there for their sessions.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> I think 100 per session is outrageous. Are you doing all three phases in this? His name and skill are who he is, I hope you are getting your money's worth. I pay $30 for ob and protection with a good helper and we don't track. But his body is getting battered by my dog.
> My own club, I feel bad for the helpers, they don't get paid at all(other than the food I bring along) and the helperwork is very, very good. Because I love training, I go to a pay to train as my club only meets once a week.


This isn't a club, his club is full. Doing private sessions. 
Nope, obedience only. 
I read the threads here about people's clubs and how easy it is to find one and how cheap and have thoughts of moving. You're extremely lucky with all the stuff you have access to. 

I want to train really really bad. I'd do more than once a week but I can't afford it. I can barely afford once a week. 
Also, I wake up at 4 am to get there on a Sunday. It's a HUGE sacrifice for me. I don't get up for work before 10 and usually even later. 
I really want to learn to train but it's not panning out the way I'd like it so far.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

lalachka said:


> You and collie got lucky with trainers that are willing to put in the work into dogs that are not the best. My trainer is insanely busy, he has so many good dogs to work with that he probably feels like this isn't worth his time.


Actually...it's not luck. It's called working with a good person and not just someone charging crazy amounts of money. I could care less what his name is...$100 is not worth it. Trust me, he's not working with that many "amazing" dogs that he has to tell some people no. The people with "amazing" dogs don't need the greatest of trainers...they already know what they're doing. It's impossible to find that many great dogs...even in New York. You'll always end up with sub-par dogs.

My helper probably works 4 to 5 dogs an hour, if not more. At $10 a dog, that's still a pretty good hourly rate.

$100 an hour sounds like the pet rate around here. The rate that "amazing trainers" charge unknowing customers that think they have no other choice. I've met plenty of these types of people...they're not god's gift to dog training, they're just great sales people and know when they've got someone on the hook.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

martemchik said:


> Actually...it's not luck. It's called working with a good person and not just someone charging crazy amounts of money. I could care less what his name is...$100 is not worth it. Trust me, he's not working with that many "amazing" dogs that he has to tell some people no. The people with "amazing" dogs don't need the greatest of trainers...they already know what they're doing. It's impossible to find that many great dogs...even in New York. You'll always end up with sub-par dogs.
> 
> My helper probably works 4 to 5 dogs an hour, if not more. At $10 a dog, that's still a pretty good hourly rate.
> 
> $100 an hour sounds like the pet rate around here. The rate that "amazing trainers" charge unknowing customers that think they have no other choice. I've met plenty of these types of people...they're not god's gift to dog training, they're just great sales people and know when they've got someone on the hook.


Luck finding someone like you two found. 

My trainer is the farthest from a salesperson.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

lalachka said:


> Luck finding someone like you two found.
> 
> My trainer is the farthest from a salesperson.


Lol..at $100 a session. He's the greatest salesperson ever. And I know that because you don't have any idea on how badly you were played!


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

martemchik said:


> Lol..at $100 a session. He's the greatest salesperson ever. And I know that because you don't have any idea on how badly you were played!


Played when? When I sought him out after knowing how much he charges from his website? 
You sound retarded. No one here does anything for 10 or 20 bucks. Good pet trainers charge 300 an hour. sport trainers charge at least 100. Stop trying to diss people that accomplished way more than you ever will.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Well...since you've been doing this for so much longer than I have, I'm sure you have a much better idea of what people charge.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

lalachka said:


> Played when? When I sought him out after knowing how much he charges from his website?
> You sound retarded. No one here does anything for 10 or 20 bucks. Good pet trainers charge 300 an hour. sport trainers charge at least 100. Stop trying to diss people that accomplished way more than you ever will.



Lala, it takes hundreds of hours to train an IPO dog in all of the phases of the sport. Just imagine if you could reach an IPO1 in only 100 hours (doubtful) at $100 per hour. That would be $10,000 in training fees alone.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Who cares how long I've been doing it for? It would take a few hours to check the websites of all the trainers in NY and get their prices. 

And who cares how much they charge in your city? You want to compare rent prices? Salaries? I thought you're an accountant. I can't believe you even said something so stupid.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

robk said:


> Lala, it takes hundreds of hours to train an IPO dog in all of the phases of the sport. Just imagine if you could reach an IPO1 in only 100 hours (doubtful) at $100 per hour. That would be $10,000 in training fees alone.


I know. That's why people join clubs I guess )))
But yeah prices are crazy here. I mean he has packages where you get 75 a session and also, I think once he sees I don't drop out he will work with me. I've only been there 10 times or so over the course of the year. 

You don't have to convince me, I know I can't pay this. Our clubs are at least a 1000 a year but I'd pay that if I can only find one. 

I will keep trying finding a club. And maybe after a month I can see what he can do for me if he knows I will come weekly for years to come. 

Also, I think it depends on the city. Some cities are just more expensive when it comes to everything.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

10 times more expensive? No...

People that "know" just don't do private lessons for competitive anything. Everything a trainer can tell you can be done in 10 minutes. After 10 minutes, your dog just goes down hill anyways.

So someone that sells you an hour long or even a 30 minute session is wasting your time and your money...and they know it.

Pet obedience is all about controlling the dog, so the more the dog works, the more tired it gets, the happier everyone is. Dog starts to give off the impression of obedience. Competitive obedience is done in drive. You want to build drive, your dog can only be in drive for so long...and 30 minutes is way too long.

So it really doesn't matter what you think a trainer should charge in your area...fact is, all those prices are too high for what you want. Doesn't take a retard to figure that out.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Our sessions are 10 mins each twice with a break. 
I keep saying that I can't afford it so I'm looking for a club. 

Martem, you're like a базарная баба, always looking for arguments and drama. And in the process ignore half of what's written. Probably on purpose.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

And you pay $100 for that?!?!?

And I remember...you said $500 a month for training. So you do 20 minutes a week...so 80 minutes total...for $500.

I don't miss things. You just give information, then change the facts when people point out how dumb it is.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Yep. Find me better. Until you do keep quiet.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

One every minute...


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Many more idiots that think they know it all. Also every minute.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

lala, you are paying an extortion type fee. NO one pays that much for obedience in IPO unless they are trying to be the top podium dog, and I truly doubt any of those would pay that much as they'd already have their own program going on. You are being taken....


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

In high cost living areas, what Lala said is within the typical range for private lessons. I'm in CA and I can relate. For a reference point, an old two bedroom small town house with high HOA easily costs $500K. NYC is more expensive than CA so I can only imagine.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I find that sad for the handlers needing instruction, not so much for the trainers! 100 per 20 minutes is a nice chunk of change. And them not allowing the handler to watch or observe club training? Glad I live in the midwest.....


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Our lessons are an hour long and my dog does not shut down after 10 minutes. He's not given breaks and is kept in drive. So I don't think that theory that they start shutting down after 10 minutes is true in general. Even my pound puppy can go an hour in a lesson and not shut down till the end. My trainer, and my previous trainer, pack a lot into one hour.

However, the price of $100 for 20 minutes is a rip off. That is $300/hr. While he may be good. There's not a trainer out there that is $300/hr good.

** Name removed by ADMIN. Bashing trainers is no more allowed than bashing breeders**


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Bear L said:


> In high cost living areas, what Lala said is within the typical range for private lessons. I'm in CA and I can relate. For a reference point, an old two bedroom small town house with high HOA easily costs $500K. NYC is more expensive than CA so I can only imagine.



there's a house around the corner for sale for 1m. I will take a pic of it if I remember. It's a rundown dirty looking house that will need to be rebuilt or stripped 
So 1m is the land, maybe 2000 Sq ft
My rent is 1500 and that's cheap for a 2 bedroom around here. Our prices are crazy for everything. 







onyx'girl said:


> I find that sad for the handlers needing instruction, not so much for the trainers! 100 per 20 minutes is a nice chunk of change. And them not allowing the handler to watch or observe club training? Glad I live in the midwest.....


Yes. For sure. Considering that I wake up at 4 and drive over an hour I feel like i can be getting more out of it. However, I haven't asked to observe yet. Will only ask this sunday. 
yes, you guys are really lucky in many ways. I read posts here about people training in clubs and paying cheap for it and I get jealous and depressed. 








Jax08 said:


> Our lessons are an hour long and my dog does not shut down after 10 minutes. He's not given breaks and is kept in drive. So I don't think that theory that they start shutting down after 10 minutes is true in general. Even my pound puppy can go an hour in a lesson and not shut down till the end. My trainer, and my previous trainer, pack a lot into one hour.
> 
> However, the price of $100 for 20 minutes is a rip off. That is $300/hr. While he may be good. There's not a trainer out there that is $300/hr good.


Our pet trainers charge 300 an hour. I can post a few websites. And people pay it, too. it's about a half hour with him, still, not enough. I agree. I'd love to do more. Hopefully he lets me stay and watch this sunday and ask questions.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

No one said the dog shuts down. Drive levels decrease. And the dog starts to go down a bit. Some people are fine working a dog at a lower level, others like to keep drive as high as possible. I also can't imagine having to stimulate a dog for an hour straight and playing games with it for that long, would take a lot out of the handler. The way I train, I myself am out of breath after 10-15 minutes. But everyone has a different idea of drive.


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

I didn't time how long in total. We went based on my girl and her body. He didn't want to overdo it so the bite became too weak. Leia will bite until she falls over dead. We only did bitework with the trainer. He encouraged watching and was upset when people left. He firmly believed you learned by watching and doing. He cared about the dogs, helping them be the best they could be. 

To me the best trainers and helpers are the ones who love the sport, who love working with dogs and it shows in how they treat their clients and the dogs. I loved the chances to watch others working. The way the dogs progressed and the highs and lows. I see success based on the way the dogs progress. Titles are great and all but seeing the dog get concepts and love what they do is more important to me. 

Those prices are crazy. Knowing NYC, it makes sense but I would question the worth of it if you can't even go and observe the club a few times. I watched the local club when I had no dog to work with. They weren't bothered by me hanging around. People like talking shop. I get not watching other private lessons but watching club is another thing. I would think there would be more choices around a larger city though. All those people and only a single person to work with? Given the sheer mass of people lol.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

lalachka said:


> Our pet trainers charge 300 an hour. I can post a few websites.


That is crazy. You would save money, and get more from your lessons, by driving in a different direction.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

martemchik said:


> No one said the dog shuts down. Drive levels decrease. And the dog starts to go down a bit. Some people are fine working a dog at a lower level, others like to keep drive as high as possible. I also can't imagine having to stimulate a dog for an hour straight and playing games with it for that long, would take a lot out of the handler. The way I train, I myself am out of breath after 10-15 minutes. But everyone has a different idea of drive.


Terminology....I don't disagree that drive levels decrease but in 10 minutes? I've never seen that with my dogs. Maybe if I was beating one thing to death for 10-15 minutes in the highest level possible but I never do that.

Or a different dog. Or a different way to train. Not everything has to be exactly as the other person does it. I can only speak for my experiences with training both a dog that has no focus and is easily stressed and a dog that can take the pressure and work thru it. But everyone has a different idea of training.

OP - I want the level of drive appropriate to what I'm doing. Not flat out GO! all the time. If I'm teaching a stand I don't want the same level as a heel. If I'm heeling, I don't want the same level as I would in protection. And tracking is a whole other drive level all together. That is a calm exercise. IMO, the drive level needs to be tailored to what you are doing and the dog needs to be able to cap that drive so they can still THINK.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

lalachka said:


> there's a house around the corner for sale for 1m. I will take a pic of it if I remember. It's a rundown dirty looking house that will need to be rebuilt or stripped
> So 1m is the land, maybe 2000 Sq ft
> My rent is 1500 and that's cheap for a 2 bedroom around here. Our prices are crazy for everything.
> .


That house isn't 2000 Sq ft, i just realized that the number of steps by each side multiplied give the Sq ft. 
It's 600 or so.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Colie CVT said:


> I didn't time how long in total. We went based on my girl and her body. He didn't want to overdo it so the bite became too weak. Leia will bite until she falls over dead. We only did bitework with the trainer. He encouraged watching and was upset when people left. He firmly believed you learned by watching and doing. He cared about the dogs, helping them be the best they could be.
> 
> To me the best trainers and helpers are the ones who love the sport, who love working with dogs and it shows in how they treat their clients and the dogs. I loved the chances to watch others working. The way the dogs progressed and the highs and lows. I see success based on the way the dogs progress. Titles are great and all but seeing the dog get concepts and love what they do is more important to me.
> 
> Those prices are crazy. Knowing NYC, it makes sense but I would question the worth of it if you can't even go and observe the club a few times. I watched the local club when I had no dog to work with. They weren't bothered by me hanging around. People like talking shop. I get not watching other private lessons but watching club is another thing. I would think there would be more choices around a larger city though. All those people and only a single person to work with? Given the sheer mass of people lol.


I don't know if I can observe the club, I haven't asked yet. Maybe i can, i will ask tomorrow. But tomorrow I was also going to ask to stay and watch the private sessions since I'm already there. 

We have tons of pet trainers but I'm not looking for a pet trainer. As far as sport - I know of 5 within 3 hours drive. Prices are the same everywhere (going by websites) and 2 of them haven't picked up the phone in months. 2 I tried. 1 is pretty far. 

It's not that I mind driving but to go over an hour I'd need to rent a car for. My car has 130k miles and I'd be scared taking it that far. So I've been trying to stay close to an hour.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> Terminology....I don't disagree that drive levels decrease but in 10 minutes? I've never seen that with my dogs. Maybe if I was beating one thing to death for 10-15 minutes in the highest level possible but I never do that.
> 
> Or a different dog. Or a different way to train. Not everything has to be exactly as the other person does it.  I can only speak for my experiences with training both a dog that has no focus and is easily stressed and a dog that can take the pressure and work thru it. But everyone has a different idea of training.
> 
> OP - I want the level of drive appropriate to what I'm doing. Not flat out GO! all the time. If I'm teaching a stand I don't want the same level as a heel. If I'm heeling, I don't want the same level as I would in protection. And tracking is a whole other drive level all together. That is a calm exercise. IMO, the drive level needs to be tailored to what you are doing and the dog needs to be able to cap that drive so they can still THINK.


Pmd you))))


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

honestly, I think the trainer is taking advantage of you..That is a ridiculous price to pay


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

It looks like he's giving you a discount Lala. His website says 150 per session. He chopped off 50 bucks. He must like you.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

*Bashing of the trainer is no different that bashing a breeder. His name will not be mentioned or intentionally dropped in any post to discredit him or the poster will receive a warning. You all may take this as a first warning. *

*Thank you,*

*ADMIN*


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

wolfmanusf said:


> I often equate teaching a dog protection to teaching a kid martial arts. You are teaching an "aggressive" behavior but also a lot of control and discipline. 99% of the time it is going to make the kid/dog better. There is always exceptions to the rule. I would say that a dog that is very prone to lashing out in aggression with no provocation should not be trained in protection.
> 
> As far as whether you should teach your dog protection... I have a very simple test. Does the dog look like it is enjoying it? Nearly any dog can be driven to bite, but to me it is not worth it if the dog is not enjoying the work.


I had a dog like this once. Great tracking, totally reliable in obed, rock steady long down. Generally very social. But he went off on teenage boys.

We decided to try him in protection to get better control. He was all defense all the time. Very good grip. But, he was stressed during bite work. He wanted to do it, but wasn't enjoying it, just as you said.

Took him out of ScH & focused him on tracking. His aggression got worse with age, unfortunately. Genetics.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Are you guys for real? Taking advantage?
I'm free to go anyplace else. You keep missing the part where I say that no one here charges less and some charge much more. 
There's nowhere else to go. 
In that sense he's taking advantage of me. Same way as my landlord is. And my electricity company and my cable and cell phone company. Our prices for everything are outrageous and in that sense we are all being taken advantage of. 

I guess he has enough people wanting to train that he doesn't feel the need to lower his prices. 

I can't believe I'm even being ridiculed for it. 

Sure, I can drive to west bumble creek and pay 30 bucks a session and rent a car to get there and kill 8 or 10 hours getting there and back and pay triple in gas and tolls. But I will save on training)))))))).


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

well don't get your knickers in a twist, I think we are all entitled to our opinions, if you feel what your paying is fair, and have no other choices, well more power to you..

You post stuff and expect everyone to just agree with you. 

chill


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

JakodaCD OA said:


> well don't get your knickers in a twist, I think we are all entitled to our opinions, if you feel what your paying is fair, and have no other choices, well more power to you..
> 
> You post stuff and expect everyone to just agree with you.
> 
> chill


I'm very relaxed but you're right. Carry on


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm just going to say this publicly since my post above has the big red letters. 

I do not know this trainer. Have never met him. From his website he has excellent credentials. There was no malicious or spiteful intentions behind my post. Thoughtless, yes. But there was never an intent to "bash" him.


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