# How did I suddenly become the omega? Long.



## Cicada (Dec 7, 2007)

I really need your help.









My dad never touches Benny. He's not even allowed to acknowledge him anymore because Benny will pee submissively instantly. He treats my practically non-existent father like the leader! And for a pup so dependent on me, he really has been treating me like crap lately!

I've noticed he's WAY more submissive with men than he is with women. Benny's dad was also very aggressive with Benny's mother, so I wonder if he's being "sexist".







My dad can stick his hand in his bowl and Benny will walk off. 

I know that when they hit this age, they're trying to find their place in the pack, but he's really ripping skin over here. I've been trying so hard to stop the biting using all the methods seen here.

*1. Hold muzzle, hold close to body, say "no"!*
That worked for maybe a week until he learned that every time he bites, he should dodge my hands before he gets reprimanded. 

Once I learned how to get to his mouth quicker, he turned from taking the punishment to going ABSOLUTELY crazy. He screams at the top of his lungs, bares his teeth, grabs anything that involves skin, and munches down on it full-force and rapid-fire like a sewing machine. My hands are full of holes now, and it's REALLY become impossible to hold his mouth.

*2. Ahem, method two: hold down.*
Okay, this probably would have worked if I worked on it longer, but it wasn't effective in terms of keeping my hands clear of his mouth. I use it still, but I feel I'M getting punished more than he is.

*3. Cover with body.*
This is something that works a little better for us, but he's also learned that if he latches his teeth around my arm, it's harder for me to cover him when I'm wailing in pain. 

And of course, this all revolves around-- you guessed it-- FOOD. 

Today, I was feeding him by hand. I used my other hand to rub his muzzle because that's usually what triggers the aggression. I didn't think he'd react because I was feeding him by hand! But no, he snapped and latched onto my hand TWICE.

So, today I worked on his food aggression. I donned a pair of gloves (winter gloves, really no protection at all) and started sticking my hands into his bowl, rubbing his nose, etc. He was very aggressive. I think I had to lay over him 12 times and slap him across the nose six when he grabbed my hand (which made me cry because I don't like hitting him, but it at least got the message to him quick before I would need stitches).









Over time, he went from attacking to growling, and then he was full and wouldn't work with the food anymore.







I plan to do this every day, but I can't help but feel I'm doing something wrong (especially with the slapping). I've been using NILIF, what's going on?


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## RobinB (Feb 7, 2008)

How old is your puppy?


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## firenurseireland (Mar 4, 2007)

how old?????


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Jen,

I just went back in your posts and see that he's 13 weeks old. He's too young for you to be coming down so hard on him! I am not a fan of any of the methods that you are using. To be honest, it sounds like it's causing more problems in your relationship because you perceive that you're involved in a power struggle and he perceives (most likely) that you've gone crazy. Clearly these methods aren't working! He doesn't trust you and you are really pissed at him. This is not a good foundation for a respectful relationship. He's just a baby! It's not necessary to hurt or restrain him. 

What books are you using to train him? 

I will offer a different perspective here. I'm sure not everyone will agree with me but I have been training and living with dog companions of every temperament for 20 years now and started out with the method you're using now and have found it doesn't really work that well. 

What if you forgot about the dominance/submissive paradigm and started trying to see things from his pov. What do you think on his mind is going on when he starts biting you? 

The food aggression stuff sounds like a battle. Is he really food aggressive or just a hungry puppy? What makes you say he's food aggressive? I think it sounds like he's frustrated because he's hungry and you're withholding his food. He perceives you--and not your dad--as a threat because you are consistently taking his food away and your dad is not. I'm sure he has no idea what's going on. Instead of withholding the food and pinning him down, what if you just let him eat? If you're worried about food aggression then pick up his bowl _and trade him for something even better like a meaty bone. _ What you're doing right now is basically confirming his fear that his food will be taken away. Why not just let him eat in peace?

Here's what I've done with the biting stuff--and I've had to deal with it with every gsd I've had, including Rafi. When I adopted Rafi he was very mouthy. He would get excited and grab whatever part of my body is closest to him and bite. He'd do the same thing with my clothing. HE would also do this when I was doing something that he thought was uncomfortable like me brushing him or me wiping his feet or drying him off. 

Here's how I dealt with the mouthy business (and this is what I've done with every one of my personal dogs and fosters): When he gets fired up and starts mouthing/biting I stop whatever I'm doing and hand him a toy. I praise him for attacking that toy but don't engage with him at all when he attacks me. I then redirect him to a toy every single time he starts going after me. Pretty soon he gets it and redirects himself to the toy because he gets *NO* attention from me (either positive or negative) when he's biting.

If you want some book suggestions I'd be happy to give them.


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## RobinB (Feb 7, 2008)

I have a puppy the same age as yours. (Assuming yours is 13 weeks)

You should feel bad when you slap her because you are doing something wrong. You shouldn't slap your puppy.

Is it possible she is just being "mouthy" and trying to play rather then being aggressive?

I know that when I use my hands in away way when my puppy is mouthing me it encourages her to mouth me more. She thinks it is a game. If she bites my hand I push her away she will jump back biting harder. She isn't being aggressive, just playing. But the play is too rough and I don't want to encourage it. I have been doing the yelp and ignore thing and it seems to be working. At the same time, I hide my hands by crossing my arms so she loses her target. She figures out pretty quickly that biting me makes the fun go away.


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## Cicada (Dec 7, 2007)

Well, he's 14 weeks now. Not that it matters.








I'm just NOT willing to put up with this when he's 110 pounds of gnashing teeth, but thanks. 

In his POV, it sounds like he wants to be top dog. I've NEVER taken his food from him. I only move my fingers around in his food when he eats, and he perceives that I'm challenging him for food. I speculate that maybe he was fed with his litter all at once from one bowl, maybe?

And it's not out of hunger, either. I continued training shortly after feeding him. Are you suggesting I just let him eat and if I happen to pass by and he gnaws my leg off, it's okay? That's a little dangerous.

He also has other dominance issues, but those aren't as severe as the food aggression.

I DO make him sit calmly and wait for my signal before he can eat. Would that affect him with me putting my hands in his bowl?


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

I would go back and re-read BowWowMeow's answer. I think it hits the nail on the head.
My puppy is the same age, and pardon me but I think you are on the wrong track. I would not think that jockying for position would be necessary nor helpful at this age. Something's gone very wrong in this whole scenario, and I think the answer might involve a whole different way of looking at the situation.
BWM- thanks- I learned a lot from your post.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Why mess with a dog's food? I tell you what, mess with MY food and forget the dog, worry about me! This is one thing I will just leave well enough alone. The dog has to deal with me taking all its toys and controlling where it rests and limiting this and preventing that and obeying commands, meal time is Dog Time. Renji gets fed in the crate and he is left alone until he is done. VERY rarely I will interfere, but only to add yummy things, that way Renji has associated me messing with his food with MORE FOOD! This way, if I ever do need to take something away from his bowl, I'll have some other goodie for him and he'll understand that he's going to be compensated. I also feed him in the crate so he is secure from other people. Guests aren't going to stumble upon him, children aren't going to bug him, and he'll have no need to feel protective because he's safe in his den. Conversely, when it comes time to our food, he had darn well better show us the same respect that we show him, this I make extremely clear. Two way street. If you haven't guessed by now, I'm more food-possessive/aggressive than most dogs.









Remember that what you have is both a blessing and a curse. A bitey pup can be very useful for training. Have you tried tug toys, puppy kongs, even leather rags on ropes? If you get all his chewiness out on toys, your hands will be spared and the biting and tugging can be used as a reward. Later on, this will serve to teach him that human flesh is not a chew toy but kongs and balls on ropes are! A lot of GSDs are also more toy-driven than anything else. 

Try this for feeding: hand feed him, but make him EARN EVERY LAST BIT. No sit, no food. If he gets really nasty, you put the food away and move away. Once he calms down, bring out the food again. A down = food. A sit = food. Eye contact = food. Frustrated attacks at your hand that persist despite redirection = signal that mealtime is over. If you're really worried about your hands, just toss the kibble. He'll see it comes from you anyway. Stop grabbing his muzzle for now and let him associate your touch and food to good things. After he's done well with obedience for food, give him the rest in his bowl, give him a quick rub (quick enough that by the time he realizes what's going on, you're already done), then go about your business. Occasionally, walk by and toss in something REALLY good, like bits of hot dog or cheese. Make that routine- 3/4 of his meal is handfed for *fun* obedience, the rest goes in his bowl, you give him a quick scritch or pat (NOT on the muzzle), then EVERYONE leaves him be. When the pup is done or it has been 15 minutes and the food is ignored, take up the bowl. There are better battles to wage in the in the leadership "war." (Bad choice of words, it is not a war, it's a way of life.)

If he's really submissive to men, I'd have to wonder if there was a not-good male presence at the breeder's or if this pup was raised around a very harsh male influence. It's really hard to tell what's going on in your post. On one hand, some of it sounds like a very fun pup (they aren't called "furgators" for nothing). On the other hand, sounds like there could be some very real issues going on. What do you know of the parents of this pup and their lines, besides Dad being very aggressive to Mom?


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

I have to agree with BowWowMeow. It is not normal behavior to roll over and pee. I would start by eating a meal first, and THEN putting the bowl with his food down. Then walk away.....you have already shown that you control the food, no need to come and try to keep your hands around it. I think you need to turn this around, you need to make everything fun for the dog, doing things with you needs to be better than anything. Trading is great, you could practice with favorite toys (no food) and then work up to trading food. Just be fair.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Let me ask you again, other than the posts on this board (and nowhere have I seen anyone advocate pinning and slapping a puppy!) what are you reading to help you train your puppy? 

I find it hard to believe that a puppy that submissively pees has dominance issues. My first gsd, Massie, grew up to be a very lean 95 pounds. She was also a very strong alpha. She also mouthed like crazy when she was a puppy and those little puppy teeth hurt! But it was clear to me that she was just being a puppy and saw me as her playmate. She wasn't trying to hurt me! 

Feeding him by hand is a possibility but he is only 14 weeks old--I don't think he needs to work for every piece of food! Rafi was living on his own and skin and bones when he was found and he a much older puppy but he does not try to bite me when I walk past his food bowl. He lets me take anything from him because he knows that my intentions are good and fair. 

Honestly, the foundation you are building with your puppy right now is not a good one. It is adversarial. If you repeatedly stuck your hands in my food, grabbed my face, smacked me and pinned me to the floor I certainly wouldn't want you to be my leader! You want him to trust you and you should trust him too! _There is no need to rule by force!_ Once again, this is detrimental to your relationship with your puppy and may very well create a mistrusting adult dog like you see in the link you provided. A good pack leader (canine or human) is fair and consistent and does not take things personally. Hitting and pinning your puppy is going to reinforce his belief that you are not a trustworthy or a fair leader. He is giving you very clear signals that he doesn't trust you. You are an adult (actually I have no idea how old you are but I'm assuming you are an adult) and he is a little puppy. He is not disrespecting you, just trying to tell you he doesn't understand what you are doing and that he finds it threatening. 

Please, do yourself and him a favor and check out some of these books. There's a good chance your local library may have them.

After You Get a Puppy, Ian Dunbar
The Power of Positive Training, Pat Miller
Bones Would Rain From the Sky, Suzanne Clothier 
The Other End of the Leash, Patricia McConnell 

Check out the Favorite Books and Video section--there are a lot of good suggestions over there!


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## Maryn (Feb 15, 2008)

It may help to keep in mind that alpha dogs don't physically dominate or squabble with the low ranking members in general.

They don't need to. Submissive dogs roll themselves over for the higher pack members, the alpha doesn't have to make them.


Why mess with his food to begin with? Let him see you eat your food first, put his food down and leave him alone. Spend time doing short training sessions and treat the **** out of him. You want him to see you as a positive presence, fair, and a source of food GIVEN, not taken.

IMO at this point he doesn't trust or respect you, and what you're doing isn't going to fix that. Forget your current concerns for the moment and focus on that.

For mouthing/biting, redirect or ignore.

Submissive peeing is NOT a good thing. It is not a normal greeting for a dog to give the alpha. A month ago I watched my 1 yr old mix roll and pee on himself when hubby came in the room. I FLIPPED. Here, Angus had done something bad earlier in the morning when I was asleep and hubby took the 'old school/retard' mentality that smacking him was the way to correct him. He is a soft dog. Naturally submissive. A cross look and verbal correction is more than sufficient at getting the point across. -After my initial ranting, I took the time to explain to hubby why what he did was bad...the training session went well, but he didn't get any treats-

Submissive peeing is a sign that something is not right, needs to be fixed, and the pup needs some confidence boosting.

Focus on building the pup's self esteem and his trust/respect of you. Forget the food issue, for now at least.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Quote: I'm just NOT willing to put up with this when he's 110 pounds of gnashing teeth, but thanks.


None of us would. The problem is you are treating a puppy the way you WOULD have to treat a 110 pound dog. And it's overwhelming and freaking him out.

Puppies main thing is PLAY. Not dominant alpha behavior. PLAY. And if everytime he invites you to 'play' by biting you hammer him into the ground....................you may think his fragile little puppy brain is getting just a bit confused. Hm, play is a bad thing cause it makes the 'Wrath of God' come down on my head.









Just because our puppies bite and growl does NOT mean it's aggression. Both play and fear look exactly like aggression and are MUCH MORE LIKELY in your case then that your puppy is actually challenging you. Sounds more like he is freaked out because you are not giving the CALM leadership it needs. 

What I want for my PUPPY is to be a calm, dependable and loving leader. So as my puppy grows they will learn to look to me, rely on me, follow me (but not FEAR me). My dog isn't biting me as an adult dog cause she's afraid of me. It's because she trusts and relys on me, why would there be any biting?

If I were you, I'd very much re-think my attitudes on how to raise a confident, happy and secure puppy. Some good sites you should read up on are:

A Good Leader (click here) 

It Takes a Pack to Raise a Puppy (click here) 

Leadership Skills (click here) 

Relationship Based Training 

And don't poopoo this way to train and think we don't know what we are talking about. I have a GSD from working lines who can be a huge challenge to train, but I'd rather work it out in a smart way, not a 'forceful' way. And it keeps my dog confident and happy and working with me.

This is MY crazy dog, and she's one of the top AKC Agility dogs in the USA, so you CAN work this out and do it well:


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## Maryn (Feb 15, 2008)

I'd add this link too-
http://leerburg.com/puppygroundwork.htm


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## Tula (May 21, 2004)

manhandling a 14 week old puppy is just ASKING for an aggressive dog.

Edited to add that I just watched the You Tube link you provided. Sounds like you (or whomever) is laughing in the background at his growling over the food?

I agree with Ruth.. why ARE you taking the food away? Let him eat and leave him alone.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

What you are doing now is going to MAKE your puppy be aggressive in the future. To fix what has already started with him I would feed him his meal but have him sit, down and/or eye contact THEN release him and let him eat in PEACE. After a week or so (give the pup a chance to eat in peace and get used to this new feeling) do the same thing but only give him 1/4 of his normal food. Again walk away then walk back and simply add a little more food. Walk away and come back and add more food and keep repeating until he has all of his food for one feeding. He will then begin to associate you approaching his bowl as a GOOD thing. Every once in a while add some BONUS food to his bowl like a bite of left over chicken or something extra yummy. 

You need to start now treating the pup like a respected and loved baby and not as the monster that he WILL become if you continue doing what you are currently doing.


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## Tula (May 21, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: JennyJenWell, he's 14 weeks now. Not that it matters.


It actually DOES matter. This is a very impressionable stage in a dog's life. Everything you do right now has an impact on what your dog will become.



> Quote:I'm just NOT willing to put up with this when he's 110 pounds of gnashing teeth, but thanks.


Ok, I'm just putting it together that this video is not of your specific dog. Sorry, you didn't make that clear.. I thought you were video taping your dog (been a long day), so you can disregard my other post.



> Quote:In his POV, it sounds like he wants to be top dog. I've NEVER taken his food from him.


I doubt it. He is looking for clear and fair leadership from his pack leader. Apparently, he doesn't view you as a pack leader because he doesn't perceive you as being fair and level headed. He doesn't understand what you are trying to do... and chances are he thinks you are crazy and unfit for a higher role position. Which just stresses him out because he thinks that HE has to fill it because you are unfit for it!



> Quote:And it's not out of hunger, either. I continued training shortly after feeding him. Are you suggesting I just let him eat and if I happen to pass by and he gnaws my leg off, it's okay? That's a little dangerous.


No, we are suggesting that you allow him to eat his food. Again, why ARE you insisting on putting your hand in the food? I'm not sure what purpose that serves. 



> Quote:He also has other dominance issues, but those aren't as severe as the food aggression.


A puppy of that age is not looking for dominance... it's looking for clear and fair leadership, which you are not providing. There are many book and link recommendations here. I would suggest you review before you physically restrain your dog again so you can find a better way to be a better leader. 



> Quote:I DO make him sit calmly and wait for my signal before he can eat. Would that affect him with me putting my hands in his bowl?


And the purpose of putting your hands in the bowl is....?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Glad you posted! 

Time to turn this around for you and your puppy. 

Here is a thread on resource guarding from the raw section:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=68798&page=1#Post68798

Are you in TN? I am trying to remember-do you have access to any trainers in your area who use positive methods? Definitely time to change the relationship before you create a total fear biter. This happened to my Bella before she was turned over to rescue at 6 months. It took a long time to undo at that point, hopefully your little guy will be able to bounce back too.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: JennyJenWell, he's 14 weeks now. Not that it matters.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Problem is, you're well on your way to a self-fulfilling prophecy here. 




> Originally Posted By: JennyJenIn his POV, it sounds like he wants to be top dog.


No, he doesn't. Very, very few dogs truly want to be top dog. That sort of temperament is extremely rare, and just doesn't happen in a 14 week old puppy.

What dogs do need is clear, fair and kind leadership, to understand the rules and have those rules enforced consistently and fairly. So strong is their need to know who is in charge, that some dogs will try to move up the ladder if they feel no one else in the family is taking that top spot or worthy of the position. They do this not because they *want* to be top dog, but because someone has to and if no one else will do it the responsibility falls on the dog. Most dogs will happily let someone else take that responsibility, provided that person shows that they are competent to have the position. Being your dog's leader isn't following a list of rules or performing dominance exercises over your pup. It's an attitude and a lifestyle of clear rules, confident leadership, obedience training, and most importantly building a bond of trust and respect. Not of fear.




> Originally Posted By: JennyJenI've NEVER taken his food from him. I only move my fingers around in his food when he eats, and he perceives that I'm challenging him for food. I speculate that maybe he was fed with his litter all at once from one bowl, maybe?


It doesn't matter if you don't take the food away. You're harassing him while he eats. How would you like it if someone reached over and played with your plate while you were having dinner? Not very much I'd say, and the same goes for the dog.

Dogs guard their food because they fear someone will take it, or will harass them while they're eating. It has nothing to do with being "top dog". The omega in the wolf pack will jealously guard his food, and fight the alpha for it, if the alpha tries to take his food away. It is one of the few areas in canine social relations where the omega WILL fight the alpha, and is perfectly justified in doing so. It rarely happens, since the alpha's know that to harass anyone while they're eating is completely inappropriate behavior, and they don't do it. A good leader wouldn't cross that line and break one of the basic rules of canine society.

Yet you are doing exactly that. Your puppy is well within his rights to defend his food if he feels he needs to. And it has nothing to do with him not respecting your leadership. You are breaking a carnal rule of polite canine society, and he's well within his rights to tell you so. 

The way to eliminate this behavior is to teach him he doesn't have anything to worry about. You're not a threat to his food and you're not going to pester him while he's eating. What you're doing now is escalating his behavior. He's afraid you'll harass him, and sure enough that's what you do. His fears are confirmed. His behavior will escalate in aggression, because you're not listening to his warning. So he has to warn louder. And earlier. What may have started with him not warning until you were right next to him will increase to him starting to show aggressive displays as soon as he catches sight of you. Because again, in his mind you're not listening to the more subtle warnings so obviously he needs to give you a firmer one to get your attention.




> Originally Posted By: JennyJen Are you suggesting I just let him eat and if I happen to pass by and he gnaws my leg off, it's okay? That's a little dangerous.


Nope. But if you continue on the path you are on, that is a very real possibility. And it will be a situation that you caused because you're going about dealing with this in the wrong way.

The way to eliminate the food aggression isn't by showing him that he has every cause to be wary of you and display food aggression, as you're doing now. What you need to do is to show him clearly that there is nothing to worry about. You're not a threat, and you're not going to harass him. Unfortunately, he now has not only his natural fear, but also many real life experiences that have shown him that his fear is justified, so it will be harder to do than if those experiences hadn't happened.

Handfeeding is one exercise to do with him. But don't pet him or do anything else he could interpret as threatening, just feed him. When he's eating, have some extra special treats handy. Something better than his regular food. Jerky treats or small pieces of chicken work great. Walk up, toss a couple in his bowl, and walk away again. If he growls, ignore him. Don't touch him, don't talk to him, don't do anything other than toss him the extra tasty treats. As time goes on, he'll become more and more comfortable with your presence because he's learning to associate it with something good (better treats) and not something bad. Within time you'll be able to pet him, touch his food bowl, etc... and he won't care because he's learned that you approaching isn't anything to worry about. It's a good thing.




> Originally Posted By: JennyJen He also has other dominance issues, but those aren't as severe as the food aggression.


What are the other "dominance issues"?


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## maxismom (Jan 13, 2008)

Hmmmmmm I am certainly no dog trainer but my breeder strongly suggested that we * continue* what she had started with keeping our hand near Max's bowl when he eats. She started it with all the puppies when they were born and we have continued it. He totally ignores our hands and just eats no matter if he is really hungry or not...

So maybe your breeder did not start this with your pup and it is just going to take some time for him to get used to it. I agree with you that this stuff needs to be dealt with from the beginning. Because these dogs grow so quickly it won't be long before he could do some real damage if he isn't trained now.

The only thing that I can think of to do is not touch the dog in a negative way but just remove the bowl to a height he can not reach until he calms down. When he appears calm put the bowl back with your hand still one it and if he growls or bites you remove it again. I think eventually he will get that his behavior is what is taking the bowl away.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: maxismomHmmmmmm I am certainly no dog trainer but my breeder strongly suggested that we * continue* what she had started with keeping our hand near Max's bowl when he eats. She started it with all the puppies when they were born and we have continued it. He totally ignores our hands and just eats no matter if he is really hungry or not...
> 
> So maybe your breeder did not start this with your pup and it is just going to take some time for him to get used to it.


This can work to prevent problems IF it's done from the beginning before the dog has developed food aggression.

That is not the case here though. This dog already has food aggression. And from the sounds of the initial post there are some serious trust and fear issues in this pup's relationship with the family members, which are just feeding his anxiety over eating and his perceived need to defend his food.




> Originally Posted By: maxismomjust remove the bowl to a height he can not reach until he calms down. When he appears calm put the bowl back with your hand still one it and if he growls or bites you remove it again. I think eventually he will get that his behavior is what is taking the bowl away.


At this point, removing the food will make things worse.

He won't "get that his behavior is what is taking the bowl away". Instead, he'll escalate his aggression to try to scare off the threat before it can get close enough to take the food away.

He's afraid of having his food taken away and of not being allowed to eat in peace. This fear has been reinforced by experiences that have proven to him that his fear is justified. At this point, anything that continues to affirm that his fear is justified and he will lose his food, will make the situation worse, not better.


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## Calipso (Jan 10, 2008)

Speaking from experience, I would say that food aggression at this early age will only get worse when the dog gets bigger and stronger. I used to ignore my shepherd's food aggression since I really didn't feel any compelling need to mess with her bowl while she was eating. However, over time her aggression began to extend beyond touching the bowl. Simply walking past her within a few feet was enough to set her off.

One day she attacked and we had a little discussion about that with her pinned on the floor upside down and me sitting on her. She never attacked again, but the food aggression was still there. (Before anyone screams about how mean I was for pinning her, let me point out she was a 5yo 85lb shepherd/wolf mix with a healthy set of teeth. Attacks on ranking members of a pack would never be tolerated in a natural environment without punishment.)

Food aggression may or may not be a matter of trust. Tasha was a trusting dog outside her food bowl. You could handle her and her toys at will with no issues. But touch the food bowl and the fight was on.

I managed to stop the attacks once she learned I could pin her. But she remained aggressive around her food bowl pretty much her entire life.

You might try the "feed by hand technique" where you put a little food in the bowl, let him eat, put a little more, etc.. The idea is to teach that you control the food and that you will share it on your terms. Feeding the dog after you eat is also a good idea since ranking dogs eat first.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

With such a young pup, the pinning and strong-armed actions just really can change WHO this puppy is and your relationship with the dog, forever. And not in a good way.

If there is a way to help my dog thru a bad behavior that is POSITIVE and GOOD. Why shouldn't I use that rather than by corrections/pinning/yelling and being the crazy control freak in the relationship? 

So ideas like 



> Quote: You might try the "feed by hand technique" where you put a little food in the bowl, let him eat, put a little more, etc.. The idea is to teach that you control the food and that you will share it on your terms. Feeding the dog after you eat is also a good idea since ranking dogs eat first.


and others that show it's a GOOD thing when you get near the bowl. And you are ADDING food. Any type of hand feeding so your dog realizes only good things come from your hands (so be pretty stupid to growl) is wonderful.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Calipso, your situation with shepherd/wolf mix is a whole different set of problems. I have seen a few shepherd/wolf mixes and not a single one of them were more GSD, they were all more wolf acting. 

I have always taught my pups that ALL good thing come from me. I can take away food, bones, treats or what ever BECAUSE my dogs trust me. I built the bond and the trust, we did trade up excercises, I would walk by and as Chris said drop some really super treat in their bowl while they were eating, I didn't say any thing I didn't hover, just quick drop the treat and move on... LOL once in a while my aim wasn't good or the dog moved their head and the treat ended up on their head.


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## Calipso (Jan 10, 2008)

I agree with what you're saying, but my point is two-fold: First, the food aggression needs to be licked early on or it will likely get worse as the dog gets stronger and bolder. Second, if the dog has become aggressive to its owner to the point of attack, you can't play nice at that point. Treat the dog like a dog and not a human child. Play by the pack rules.

Tasha acted no more wolf-like than Sugar who is a pure GSD. Other than the food thing, she was actually quite docile around everyone including other dogs. She did like to chase cats and squirrels, but that's nothing exceptional. When we got her at around 7 weeks, she was full of beans but not food aggressive. The aggression came later. She was never teased with food and was actually spoiled with treats and dinner scraps. I have no idea what caused her to be food aggressive. Maybe it was a wolf gene. Maybe she got into a food argument with one of the other dogs. Who knows.

But Tasha was not the first dog I've had with FA problems. The shepherd before her was an adopted stray. She was nearly starved when we took her in. No surprises here that she was food aggressive as well. She was spoiled rotten but never got over her FA. Sometimes, you just have to deal with the hand dealt to you.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Calipso Second, if the dog has become aggressive to its owner to the point of attack, you can't play nice at that point. Treat the dog like a dog and not a human child. Play by the pack rules.


Well, playing by pack rules would mean leaving the dog alone to eat, not bothering him or going near him, and definitely never trying to take his food away. That is one of the absolute paramount, set in stone rules of "the pack". A rule an alpha won't even dare break.

Further aggression of the HUMAN toward the dog is not going to make the dog's aggression go away. It is going to magnify it, and continue to damage the relationship, which can lead to a lifetime of issues.


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## Calipso (Jan 10, 2008)

Let me ask you this then: If your dog has become openly aggressive to the point that it will attack and has now attacked, what would you do?


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

I know that you directed your question at Chris. 

I am going to say that there were many many warning signals that the dog was gaining status it it's mind. That to me is when you stop things. NILF, or if I had a dog that thought it was gaining in rank above me, I make the dog realize that it's very life depended on me, it would not be allowed to make any decision on it's own. I would strap this dog to me and where I went it went, I decided when it eats, drinks, goes potty, sits, lays down every thing.

I don't mess with my dogs when they are eating, BUT any dog that I have that is prone to pushing the rank issue, HAS to sit without me telling it to set before they get their food. I want the dog to honor my rank by sitting, not by me telling it to.


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

If I were facing these issues I would realize that if I had the knowledge to correct it I probably would not be facing it in the first place, and I would not be ashamed at all to GET HELP.


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## Tonto (Jan 2, 2008)

I must say - what comes first? Does one necessarily cause food aggression? I have a puppy (now 6 1/2 months) that started this about the same age as your pup, along with some other odd behaviours. One day as we walked past while he was eating, not even that close, he growled and lunged and nipped. No one addressed him or anything. So now you get two different opinions - 1. You must have caused this so just leave him alone, or 
2. Do not tolerate this and show him who's boss.

I don't know why he started it, but I do know it was not because we messed with him. Right after that he would lay next to the cabinet his food was stored in. When you walked past him, he would growl and lunge. Same thing with his toy, usually he would bring the toy to you, on occassion if something bothered him (tired, hungry) he would grab that toy and lunge. 

He would also raise hackles and bark like crazy at new things, or people. People were afraid of this "puppy". Even at 14 weeks, they can certainly hurt you.

I contacted a trainer and she said she thought it was fear, not dominance or aggression. Just too young to know clearly how to handle his emotions. 

I am taking him to obedience, and he is maturing. He is much better, though I still watch him. Once I got him in class, the trainer thinks he is a great dog. She doesn't feel like he is a dominant dog based on his actions in class (we have a male lab who is) or naturally aggressive (we have a border collie who is). She just thinks he is young, ill mannered, and a loud mouth







I know how you feel, I was really afraid of my dog. I still would never underestimate him, and I do consider it a fault, but as he grows and matures I can see him controlling his emotions (if that makes sense). He is learning what to be threatened about, and what not. I do advocate giving high value treats to him from a distance while he is eating. I was never comfortable with people who wanted me to down him, remove his bowl, put my hands, etc. I don't really have the issue to the degree that we did, and I am fine with that.

By the way, there is one pup in his litter like mine, and one completely docile, lovey dovey.


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

Tonto- you identified a problem and are dealing with it with the help of trainers- WTG! 
Personally I think the cause and effect are a whole lot less important than looking honestly at the situation and deciding how best to solve it. Are you using techniques that are helping, as yours clearly are? Or is what you are doing not helping and possibly making it worse, as seems to be the case with the original poster?
I have worked with people who, when something goes wrong spend so much time and effort assigning blame that they could have the problem solved in half the time with no hurt feelings. 
And I also believe that with dogs, like horses...when you're trying to teach something to an animal they are the student and you are the teacher. If the student does not understand it is the fault of the teacher, 100% of the time. It may be that the student has needs beyond the teacher's ability, but the student is NEVER at fault, and should not be treated as such. If you are not able to teach properly then you should get someone who can.
JMHO


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

To those who think that the dog must be corrected and shown "who is boss" during mealtime, you are forgetting one of the most important parts of the leadership equation: TRUST. If the dog cannot trust you to provide food and is always watching and waiting for you to take it back, he will always be at odds with you. You will be angry, he will be scared and defensive. The fights escalate, the bond weakens and trust will be lost. 

Take the first step to building trust and leave the pup alone during mealtime. Prepare his food, crate him, have him sit or down (whichever he will reliably do), then release him as you put the bowl in the crate, shut the door, and walk away. When he is done (and hopefully before he starts whining), open the door, make him wait for you to take up the bowl, then let him go. You show your leadership by controlling feeding time, directing where the pup should go, having him perform obedience for his meal, and by _leaving him alone so he can eat in peace._ 

Once there are no more food battles, you will feel better because you won't be worried about fights and growls and bites and your pup will feel better because he will no longer be concerned about losing a meal to someone bigger and stronger or having to fight for it. Both of you can begin to enjoy each other again and rebuild trust and rebuild your bond. Practice NILIF by making the pup sit or down before petting, playtime, going through doors, going up and down stairs, etc. Enforce a long down during your mealtime- yes, a puppy of your age CAN do this! You'll probably have to do lots of gentle but firm replacing, but the pup will eventually give in and settle down, even nap. It's helpful to do this after a lot of exercise. This is a wonderful control exercise that both reinforces your leadership and promotes calm behavior.

Remove this unnecessary fight over food and things will get better if all other areas are in place. Remember, if you often act frightened, irritated, confused, and nervous around your pup, he will pick up on this. Stay calm, stay cool, and you'll stay in control. And don't forget to HAVE FUN!


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Tonto, it is absolutly possible to have pups from the same litter exhibit different behaviors. While they are siblings they aren't identical. Hat's off to you for getting some additional help. It is hard for us to evaluate ourselves and the dog at the same time.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: CalipsoLet me ask you this then: If your dog has become openly aggressive to the point that it will attack and has now attacked, what would you do?


First, avoid confrontation. For two main reasons:
Safety. 
Breaking the cycle. Each time there is a fight between dog and handler, increases the likelihood of it happening again. The dog comes to expect a fight, as does the handler, and the very expectation of one increases the chances of it happening.

Second, figure out WHY the dog is doing it. Provided this isn't some totally unstable, homicidal dog (which do exist, but are very, very rare) there is a legitimate cause for the dog's behavior. Dog's don't attack for no reason. They don't WANT to attack. They do it because they feel it is in their best interest to do so. Usually because they are uncomfortable, stressed or outright scared.

In most cases of dogs showing aggression toward their owners it's because the dog does not trust the owner and sees the owner as a threat that he must defend himself against. When that happens, it is not the dog who caused it. It is the owner who caused the dog to feel that way, and the owner's job to fix it. Dogs are simple, and completely honest, creatures. If they show aggression, they have a good reason for doing it. As humans, we may not be able to see or understand their reason easily, but because a dog is what a dog is we can rest assured that he does have a reason. If it's an older dog, it's possible that past experience beyond our control gave him that reason. But with a pup, who's only experience is with us, we need to accept that something we have done is the cause of his behavior.

If a dog thinks attacking is in his best interest, there is something seriously askew with the dog/handler relationship. Being the more rational and intelligent partner in that relationship, and also the one more able to change our own behavior and general outlook on the situation, that responsibility falls on the human. Identify the root cause of the aggression.

Third, once the cause has been identified, then steps can be taken to resolve the root cause of the conflict, which will in turn eliminate behavioral issues that result from the conflict.

As the saying goes, if you do what you've always done, you'll get the same results you've always gotten. Dealing with symptoms rarely works, and while it may seem to yield results in the short term, it doesn't solve the problem, meaning relapse is likely. Dealing with the root cause of the problem, by fixing the relationship issue, building trust and respect, an the problem is solved forever.

I have owned truly dominant dogs, dogs with resource guarding problems, and dog's labeled as "handler aggressive", one so bad that he'd bitten several people, and therefore been through several owners before he came to us. And these were adult dogs, set in their ways and also capable of inflicting a great deal of damage compared to a 14wk old puppy. I won't say that it didn't tick me off and the temptation wasn't there to have a cage match to "show them who's boss". But I resisted the urge to do that, and not just for safety reasons, but because I have enough knowledge and experience with dogs to know it was the absolute WRONG thing to do. I chose a different approach because it was the best way to deal with the underlying problem, in order to create a turn around in their behavior, and build a more positive relationship overall, which extinguishes the problem altogether.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: TontoI must say - what comes first? Does one necessarily cause food aggression? I have a puppy (now 6 1/2 months) that started this about the same age as your pup, along with some other odd behaviours. One day as we walked past while he was eating, not even that close, he growled and lunged and nipped. No one addressed him or anything. So now you get two different opinions - 1. You must have caused this so just leave him alone, or
> 2. Do not tolerate this and show him who's boss.
> 
> I don't know why he started it, but I do know it was not because we messed with him.


As has been said many times in this thread, resource guarding is natural for dogs. And it is not an issue of dominance or the dog needing to be shown who is boss. It is an issue of the dog feeling threatened and that he needs to defend his resources. And one of the rules of canine law is that he is justified in doing so, regardless of who the threat is. The omega in a pack is allowed to defend his food even against the alpha, and he will do it. Though he probably would never need to because the alpha, also being born with an innate understanding of canine law, is aware of the fact that to threaten the omega's food is forbidden. If he ignores that and tries anyway, he is not only risking having to fight the omega, but it is also going to cause the omega and any other pack member who saw it happen question the alpha's suitability as leader. Because good leaders are fair and follow the law, they don't break them when it suits them to do so.

Resource guarding isn't always caused by the owner. Though in many cases when people intentionally mess with a dog's food, usually in a misguided attempt to prevent resource guarding, it back fires and they end up creating what they were trying to avoid. But some dogs are just more genetically predisposed to showing the behavior, and it can come about on it's own, without influence by the owner.

But while we can't always affect whether the dog starts resource guarding or not, we CAN choose the right way or the wrong way to deal with it. And punishing the behavior is the wrong way. It only affirms the dog's fears.... "I was afraid something bad would happen when mom/dad approached me while I had that food.. and sure enough it did." That reaction on the owner's part not only strengthens the dog's feeling that he needs to protect himself and his resource, but in most cases will escalate the aggressive behavior. 

It also leads to trust and respect issues in the relationship with the dog. Because to the dog, not only are we an unfair, questionable leader who disobeys the law and treatens his food, but when he exercises his God given canine right to defend it, we come down on him like a ton of bricks. In his mind, he is right to be wary of us because we are unpredictable, untrustworthy, and potentially dangerous.

If we instead choose to focus on building more trust and respect with the dog, teaching him that we are trustworthy, predictable, safe, and basically people worth listening to and respecting, the overall relationship improves, and so does behavior. Teach the dog that GOOD things happen when we approach while he has food, rather than strengthening his fear that BAD things will happen by making sure he has a bad experience when we approach, and the anxiety that is the root cause of his aggression goes away, and so does the aggression.


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## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

You need to get professional helpASAP. Work closely with a trainer. I think you have created these problems.

Truthfully my gut tells me you should rehome your pup and stick to fish.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: JennyJen
> So, today I worked on his food aggression. I donned a pair of gloves (winter gloves, really no protection at all) and started sticking my hands into his bowl, rubbing his nose, etc. He was very aggressive. I think I had to lay over him 12 times and slap him across the nose six when he grabbed my hand (which made me cry because I don't like hitting him, but it at least got the message to him quick before I would need stitches).
> 
> 
> ...


This is the perfect way to make a dog guard their food even more. And worse, it will teach them to not give you a WARNING before they bite.

Think of it from the dogs point of view. They are trying to eat and someone comes and starts bothering them. They growl - a warning - and they are physically reprimanded. Ok, fine - next time the dog will growl louder. When that it met with even more physical punishment the dog can switch from growling (the warning) to going right to the bite.

I firmly believe in being able to approach any of my dogs and remove food from their mouthes - IF NECESSARY. I've had to do that twice with my Corgi mix - she started choking on a piece of turkey neck. If she had started struggling, trying to keep me from getting near her food at the time, she would have died.

BUT - I teach my dogs that when I approach their foods bowls while they are eating WONDERFUL things happen - not bad ones.

This link is a step-by-step method of how to work with food guarding (or any type of resource guarding issue):

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=68798&page=1#Post68798

I can take a piece of raw meat out of my dogs mouthes without worrying.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Since I'm thinking those that are WAY into the 'alpha roll my food bowl growling dog' may think we are talking a bunch of hooey when we say there is a better way to deal with this that works even BETTER (but means we have to use our brains not just our brawn), here's some sites with info from others to read:

http://dogs.about.com/cs/behaviorissues/p/resource_guard.htm

http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/resource-guarding/



> Quote:It’s a huge mistake to label a dog with a resource guarding problem as ‘dominant’. This is largely because it is just too simplistic to think that everything a dog might do which his owners disapprove of is some kind of a bid for power, especially if it involves threat behavior. This label can also encourage owners to look for opportunities to score points back on their dog when their time would be much better spent looking for opportunities to teach the dog not to guard his possessions and to reward him for doing other things.


http://www.deesdogs.com/documents/classicalconditioningchangesfoodbowl.pdf

http://www.clickertrainusa.com/Webpages/Well%20Being%20Training%20System/resourceguarding.htm


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## Cicada (Dec 7, 2007)

I'm getting a lot of mixed messages here.







Which leads me to believe I probably shouldn't be getting advice here anymore. It's like asking about religion, it seems! Everyone in conflict, slamming down fists on an imaginary table. I don't need to read books. I though I could get some good advice here, but I find that all the answers are contradictory.

Although, I do agree with a lot of you. I *should* be desensitizing him by keeping my hand in his bowl. He will never learn to trust it unless it's always there idling petting him and pushing his food around. If he chooses to take himself away from his food by biting me, sure. He's only punishing himself when he could be eating.
It's MY food on loan to HIS stomach, therefore he is in no position to 'bite the hand that feeds him'. 

Note, again, that I've only popped him when he hurt me. That's my right as a human reacting to pain, so don't get on to me about that. I saved my skin, and if that's wrong, baby, I don't want to be right.

As for men, I don't know. I can say that the father of the family that sold him seemed to deal a lot more with the puppies than the wife, so that very well could be.

For the love of GOD, stop assuming! He doesn't 'roll on his back' for my dad! Where did you get that? He pees, yes, but he doesn't 'roll on his back'.







He hasn't done that for anyone so far... except when he's relaxed and I reach to rub his belly.


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## RobinB (Feb 7, 2008)

No need to read books?

Fine, you get what you deserve. I just feel bad for your puppy.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I think we swerved off topic there for a little bit. 

There's that old if you talk to two dog people the only thing that they will agree on is that the third person doesn't know what they are talking about thing, so yes, you do get conflicting information. 

However there are people who are passionate about the idea of puppies and trying to lay a foundation for a really great dog and ways in which you do that positively and with great results. 

I have ten dogs (2 are fosters) and have fostered 14 others from puppies to seniors and have never encountered food aggression (with me-they will guard against each other on occasion until I say ah!). This includes dogs who are actually aggressive in other ways and of course starved dogs. Am I a magician?







MOST certainly not. But I let them be and work on our relationship in so many other ways that by the time I have to swoop in and take something from their mouth, I can. If there was a problem, I'd use Lauri's post. 

So you can do it in the way that people who have had success have done it, or you can do it in the way that is maybe more short term in the way that you can feel successful but that may produce more problems in the long term. 

If I had to read one thing-but I would read more if I could, it would be Lauri's link, that I also linked. 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=68798&page=1#Post68798


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: JennyJenI'm getting a lot of mixed messages here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, it might help you sort out the contradictory answers if you look at the experience level of the people answering. Go back through the posts and you'll find everyone in this thread who is a highly experienced GSD owner, and also involved in serious training, and has a strong understanding of canine psychology and behavior are all telling you the same thing. Those saying the opposite are, well.. lets say the more inexperienced posters in the thread.



> Originally Posted By: JennyJen He will never learn to trust it unless it's always there idling petting him and pushing his food around.


<sigh> Not true. But so long as you decide to hold onto that belief, than no, I'm afraid most of the good advice you could get from the members of this board won't help you.









I know you said you don't need to read books, but if you could be inclined to do so, "Bones would rain from the sky" by Suzanne Clothier could be very eye opening, and helpful. As could "The Dog Listener" by Jan Fenell.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:I don't need to read books.


The exact opposite of that is true. You need to read MANY books as there is not one book with the perfect advice for every dog. Just like this forum. Did you think you'd be handed the miracle advice? What you are getting is the experience of other people, either real-life or from research or both. You are getting conflicting information because everyone is an individual and every dog is an individual. Some things work better with some dogs. In your case, what you are doing is obviously NOT working, so ignoring him or being a good presence may be the right thing to do. Repeating the same behavior over and over again while expecting different results is the definition of insanity, so they say. 



> Quote:Although, I do agree with a lot of you. I should be desensitizing him by keeping my hand in his bowl. He will never learn to trust it unless it's always there idling petting him and pushing his food around. If he chooses to take himself away from his food by biting me, sure. He's only punishing himself when he could be eating.
> It's MY food on loan to HIS stomach, therefore he is in no position to 'bite the hand that feeds him'.


I have a feeling you're going to be having a problem with mealtimes for the rest of this dog's life. Please be open to the advice you were given and try different things. If you try 20 different approaches and still fail, look at it as though you eliminated 20 possible ways of dealing with a behavior which leaves you open to try 20 more. Change is good, but it is not easy.

Best of luck.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: RobinBNo need to read books?
> 
> Fine, you get what you deserve.


But unfortunately, it's the puppy who will suffer and the puppy definitely doesn't deserve this.


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## RobinB (Feb 7, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: RobinBNo need to read books?
> ...


I agree with you. But apparently it is her "right as a human" to slap her puppy. Guess the puppy has no rights.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: JennyJenAlthough, I do agree with a lot of you. I *should* be desensitizing him by keeping my hand in his bowl. He will never learn to trust it unless it's always there idling petting him and pushing his food around.


No, no, no, no, NO! You've never taught him that having your hands near his bowl is a good thing, so he doesn't trust you. And what you're doing is not desensitizing him to it, it's making him trust you even less. Yes, I could mess with my dog's food if I wanted, (but I don't really want to, so I don't), I can take anything out of their mouths if I need to, but I TAUGHT them, right from the beginning, by hand feeding part of their meals, by putting good things in their bowls while they were eating, by trading something they had for something better, or rewarding them for giving it up and then giving it right back to them. _I taught them._ Over a period of months and months and months, that I could be trusted, that good things happened in my presence, and that I wasn't going to snatch their food away, so there was no reason to guard it from me.



> Quote:Note, again, that I've only popped him when he hurt me. That's my right as a human reacting to pain, so don't get on to me about that. I saved my skin, and if that's wrong, baby, I don't want to be right.


Well, only if you're satisfied with a pattern of he hurts you and you smack him. But wouldn't it be better to figure out WHY he feels the need to hurt you, and fix that, so he stops doing it. Smacking him after the fact is teaching him exactly nothing, except, again, that he can't trust you. 

And yes, you do need to read books, and those articles that were linked to, and you should attend training classes too. Nobody is born knowing how to train dogs, and respectfully, you have a lot to learn. We all did in the beginning. There's no shame in not knowing what to do about your problems with this puppy. The shame would be if you decide not to take the expert advice being offered, and your puppy suffers.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: JennyJenI'm getting a lot of mixed messages here.


I went back and re-read every single post on this thread, and you're really not. There are only 2 or 3 people (with mostly young puppies) that are not in absolute complete agreement with the rest of the posters, all of whom have vast experience in raising, training, and in some cases competing with their dogs, or at least with managing multi-dog households, often with 'issues' dogs - and some of them have both. Every one of those people are saying the exact same thing. 

You really should listen to them if you are at all sincere in wanting to learn. If you only started this thread because you wanted to have your way of dealing with the problem validated, you came to the wrong place. You can really screw up this puppy if you continue down this path, and I can say for sure, it's a lot easier to prevent problems than to fix them later, and the longer it goes on, the harder it will be.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

An example on adapting: Renji is starting to get very possessive of his baseball. I cannot let him have it for long because he destroys EVERY ball. I have been enforcing a "give" command during fetch games, that as soon as he drops it he gets to run for it again. Sometimes I will let him have it and go up to him and pet him. I can tell he gets possessive if I go near him because he'll freeze, but he'll relax when I pet him. And I do NOT hesitate! I am not tentative one bit. Dogs will key on your behavior and if you're nervous, they will be doubly nervous. After a little while, I will give him the command and take it. If he tries to protect the ball, I will give him a sharp, corrective noise (like tsst or ah or a blend of that), and then he'll understand, I'll take the ball, praise him, then toss it. He is getting better as he learns that giving me the ball does not mean he loses it. 

In the house though, he is VERY anxious about it because I always get the ball and put it away. This I realized I have taught him to worry about. I at first gave a very big correction but I quickly realized that that would do nothing except make things worse, either by increasing his possessiveness or by him not trusting me. Last time I had to deal with this, I gave him cheese, but I made him give up the ball, gave him cheese (trade), then I let him go back to the ball. I made him do this a few times before I actually took up the ball. My next course of action will be to bring him inside after fetch outdoors, then play a little inside, hopefully get him distracted, then hide the ball. I find that if there is NO CONFRONTATION whatsoever, things are MUCH smoother. What I prefer to do is distract him so he drops the ball, then my wonderful fiance assistant can scoop up the ball and hide it. Renji comes back looking for it but we're not to blame.







In fact, I've probably been passing out goodies to him. Right now, there is nothing bad, but I'm strategizing to ensure things never escalate. I may change my methods tomorrow if I find something better or decide what I am doing is not working. I adapt. My goal is to have him always out the ball on command and to always repossess the item at the end of the game if it is not chew-safe (only his black kong is). My goal for Renji is to accept that arrangement, that *I* control the really fun stuff, without much argument. I'll allow him to be unhappy about it and maybe push it now and then by trying to move the object away from me, but I expect him to give in without any struggle. 

Adapting to the situation is the best way to go about training. Also, when you read LOTS of books, websites, opinions, and watch lots of videos and shows, you'll have a HUGE knowledge base of information to draw on. You may not need to use some of that for years, but if you ever run into a situation where nothing else works, there is "that" piece of info you have filed away to draw on. And if it works, that's wonderful! If you don't do your part to read everything you get your hands on, you may not find that wonderful piece of knowledge that will help resolve a situation.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:
> I went back and re-read every single post on this thread, and you're really not.


That's what I figured. Most people here seem to be concurring with each other. I strongly believe the OP is just not hearing what she wants to hear.







No insult meant whatsoever, that is just what I gather by reading between the lines. The comment about not needing to read anything further cements my opinion.


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## Maryn (Feb 15, 2008)

A chance for enlightenment and change for the better being lost is always so disappointing.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Let me share one of my own mistakes: Chama (who is now almost 13) was not a good eater when she was a puppy. In order to get her to eat I made up a "game" where I told her Cleo (the cat) was going to eat her food. Cleo liked this game and would run in and take a piece of kibble out of Chama's bowl and this would cause Chama to rush in to protect her food by eating it. If Cleo wasn't around I would tell her I was going to eat her food and I would pick up her bowl and make eating sounds. This was a VERY stupid thing to do because I was teaching her to guard her food. It wasn't long before she turned into a nasty snarling monster around her food bowl. She began eating with her tail tucked between her legs and ferociously growling at anyone who came too close. THIS WAS ALL MY FAULT!!!!!!







I realized this and was able to correct the problem with humans by dropping tasty things in her bowl while she ate but she is still very nervous about other animals around her food and I have to feed her in a corner, away from the other animals. Again, this is a problem that I created by messing with her food and making her feel like she needed to protect this valuable resource. 

I went back and looked at pictures of Benedict and it made me very sad. He is adorable and so innocent looking. I am very sorry that you don't feel like you can learn anything from the many years of experience we offer you on this board. Over and over again, in posts from people who have been raising and/or rescuing dogs for many, many years, I see several consistent themes:

1).* You need to be a fair, gentle and consistent leader.* You need to build a relationship with your dog that is based on trust and understanding, and not one based on fear. 

2). *Physical corrections will increase and not decrease problems.* And your dog is still a baby and is not capable of the intentions (dominance and aggression) you seem to think he possesses. Those of us who have had gsds for many years have changed the methods we use to train our dogs. That's why our advice is so worthwhile: in many cases we are dealing with adult high drive dogs and/or dogs that have been abused and truly aggressive. We have learned that using aggression to counteract (in your case, perceived, aggression) leads to an increase in aggression. 

You are locked in an imaginary power struggle with *a puppy * who simply wants to understand what his leader expects of him. 

Incidentally, I have been rescuing german shepherds and other bully breeds/mixes for 20 years now but I still read books on dog training and dog behavior and take classes with Rafi. 

I hope, for Benedict's sake, that you will take advantage of the real and invaluable resources this board has to offer.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: JennyJen
> Note, again, that I've only popped him when he hurt me. That's my right as a human reacting to pain, so don't get on to me about that. I saved my skin, and if that's wrong, baby, I don't want to be right.


Yes, you are wrong, you are soooo wrong. The other day a friend's daughter (2 years old) scratched my arm because I took a crystal ornament out of her hands, she actually broke skin, but I didn't slapped her in the face for that. The mother corrected her for her tantrum, yes, but it didn't involved physical correction either. 

I feel very close to Benedict and to you because my own pup is no more than a few days apart from your and we have compared noted in others thread before. I feel your pain (and my scarred arms are proof enough) my pup is a working line with lots of drive who wants things on her on way... and now! I believe I have a great relationship with her, I had never raised a hand over her and still a NO! out of me can make her freeze in wathever she's doing (my mom is jealous, Diabla couldn't care less if she corrects her) If I want to be a leader I have no rights to be a bully. There are time when my teeth clench wanting to give her a good scruff shake, but I can't ask her to be human, I have to become canine and if young ones have "puppy license" until certain age then she's the one with the Rights, not me.




> Quote:
> For the love of GOD, stop assuming! He doesn't 'roll on his back' for my dad! Where did you get that? He pees, yes, but he doesn't 'roll on his back'.
> 
> 
> ...


If he doesn't roll on his back as was posted then it can have a very different meaning. Diabla pees every time she meet someone, known or unknown, out of pure excitement while she greets them. She even lows her ears and waves her tail down when she greets people, my mom included, but it's more a friendly greeting than real submission, as stated above... she has very little respect for her.


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## MiasMom (Nov 3, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: JennyJenI'm getting a lot of mixed messages here. I though I could get some good advice here, but I find that all the answers are contradictory.


Re-read these posts--there isn't a lot of contraditions.



> Originally Posted By: JennyJenAlthough, I do agree with a lot of you. I *should* be desensitizing him by keeping my hand in his bowl. He will never learn to trust it unless it's always there idling petting him and pushing his food around.


I don't see that many people here have advocated that you keep your hands in his food--most people have said to leave him alone with his food. If you've seen what you"re doing is not helping--and that is why you posted here in the first place-- why do you insist on strong-arming him? The experienced people who've responded to you have said the approach you've taken has eroded his trust in you. 

If your parents put your plate on the table in front of you every day when you were little, and randomly took it away, moved it, and when you tried to take something off your plate they held you down-how do you think you'd feel & react after experiencing that a few times? You probably would watch them warily and snatch that food away as quickly as you could, even if you had to slap their hand to get it. It certainly wouldn't make you trust your parents.



> Originally Posted By: JennyJenNote, again, that I've only popped him when he hurt me. That's my right as a human reacting to pain, so don't get on to me about that. I saved my skin, and if that's wrong, baby, I don't want to be right.


As a rational human, you have the responsibility to temper what may be your first reaction with common sense and good judgement. Anybody who's had a teething human baby, has felt that baby's teeth bite them on the shoulder or finger at some time. And it hurts! Your first reaction is HOLY COW! But maturity and good judgement tells you that you can't force the baby to not bite you by hurting him back.


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## khurley (Sep 25, 2004)

JennyJen, you seem to be defending a lot of the methods you're using with your pup. Consider for a minute that if they really were good methods, they'd probably be working at least to some degree and you wouldn't be on here frustrated with the results your getting. 

You can't force your dog to respect you or to regard you as alpha. These things can be established through NILIF and such, but in situations where the owner is in over their head with the dog, establishing a position of alpha is very difficult. Strong-arming your pup into submission is NOT going to establish a correct relationship.

You say you've been doing NILIF but if you're mixing NILIF with conflicting signals through the other methods you're employing, it's not going to be effective. I'd recommend that you stop with the physical restraining you've been doing and get your hands out of his food dish. I can't imagine a situatin where I'd routinely mess with my dog's food. I could, but that's because I've already established complete trust with my dogs. All you're doing is causing distrust and making the situation worse. 

You need to be calm and clear in your expectations and you need to remember that he's still just a puppy and learning. How you handle this phase of his developement is going to largely determing what kind of dog you end up with. Establish pack order by making him earn everything and that does not mean holding him down or alpha rolling him. I'd recommending re-reading everything you can find on NILIF and following it.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

Respect is earned it is not a right of any human or beast.


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## Kedyr (Dec 22, 2007)

I was reading Ian Dunbar today and he recommends desenstizing your pup (by 4 months of age) to hands being around food. How? Placing treats in the bowl while the dog is eating! He has many other suggestions around getting the puppy used and excited about people being around its food, but they all center around positive reinforcement.

I don't think it's too late even in this case to try positive reinforcement techniques. If you're going to get your hand chewed up reaching into the bowl, do it while dropping a yummy treat your pup loves. Do this enough and your pup will eventually love to see your hand go into its bowl.


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

Thanks to all who posted here. I learned a lot. Jen, I hope you come to realize that clearly things are not going well, swallow your pride, and admit that you need a better way of interacting with that pup of yours.
Ignorance is when you don't know.
Compound ignorance is when you don't know that you don't know.
I'm no expert on dog training (that's why I bought nine books and am enrolled in classes) but I can tell you that you have a serious case of compound ignorance. You need to get ignorant before you can get smart. No shame in admitting you need help; plenty of it in sticking to a line of thinking that these very experienced folks, many of whom rehabilitate dogs like the one your dog is on the way to becoming, are telling you will lead to more serious problems.


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## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

How old are you? I have a feeling YOUNG YOUNG.

Way to go for reading these answers. That was A LOT of reading. PHEW!

My husband has been a horse trainer for 40+ years. He tells his riding students the day he stops learning is the day he quits. And yes he still reads and watches trainning videos. 

I have a library of dog books, tons of videos. No behavioral problems but I have still read all the links provided to you so I could LEARN and hope to avoid future problems.

YES you do have to weed through conflicting ideas and find your own method and YES that is work but isn't that what you signed on for when you took the pup into your home?

I didn't mean to make this so long. I know your adversion to reading. Maybe this thread will help someon else lerking out in cyberspace. I think your pups fate is already a done deal.


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## Tula (May 21, 2004)

I'd like to point out that I'm not slamming my fist in any way. I'm just too busy to sugar-coat anything and make it sound pretty. I'm blunt and to the point....

... that being said, I have read through ALL the posts and the majority of us agree that a level-headed, fair, trustworthy leader is what this puppy needs... and it is something you are not providing. Many of us have posted that this puppy does not feel you are worthy of the alpha position. And you getting physical with the dog will not prove your alphaness (is that a word?).

Anyway, I'm not going to waste my time here. The simple comment of "I don't need to read any books" makes it clear that you are not coachable nor are you willing to learn.

I feel sorry for your puppy.


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## poppy1677 (Sep 23, 2007)

I too was concerned when I first thought of getting another puppy after having a full-grown GSD fear-biter (successful rehabilitation but way stressful). I got every puppy book out there, memorized them, and got even more terrified. What was I going to do when the pup reached my size? All of the books said you should be able to grab that food dish away at any time. Then we got our little goofball. Common sense rules the day here, just like it did with our former dog. What would I do if my husband grabbed my food? Bite him of course! So don't grab the food. I consistently practiced taking away toys and things he shouldn't be touching-my shoes!!- using a leash and a loud "ahh" sound and that has worked to the point that I only have to use an 'evil eye' to make him stop an unwanted behavior. Really just be consistent, make him sit and whatever other tricks he knows before you feed him, and have faith in yourself that you will be able to have complete control over your pup when he/she is bigger, cause you've laid the groundwork by being disciplined and having confidence is half the battle. No hitting, and don't be afraid of asking questions in this forum because there is so much valuable advice to be found here!


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## akgriffin (Feb 5, 2008)

I think you need to take lucina's quote and just swallow your pride and re-think your position. I use to be a "beater", if the animal, horse or dog, cat, kid didnt learn if the first time i showed them, u beat it in to them. I CAN SAY I AM NO LONGER THAT PERSON.
It because i learned pride can make you do the wrong thing, and you swear up and down that its right. Please learn from these comments. Will so-in-so's plan work for you, maybe, maybe not, but try. Read, listen, ask questions, watch shows or video's but learn more. Yes there are ppl here in these forums that are little enthusiastic in there ways and comments, but its all for the good of your dog, then for you. Dont take it personal. I dont know jack crap, but please take your hand out of his food and give a little space. Second, really think why your hitting your dog like that, and ask would you do your kid like that? Its very hard to admit you were wrong, so admit it, and move on and learn. I hope this helps a little, im just a poor ******* and my mind runs faster than my fingers type. Yall have a nice day.


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## poppy1677 (Sep 23, 2007)

Exactly, nobody every died from being yelled at a little bit! There's more to gain here than to lose...


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## Fee (Jul 4, 2004)

Jenny Jen, you got great advice. We all make mistakes but your pup is young enough to turn things around and develop a wonderful relationship based on mutual trust and respect. I am sure, you are capable of becoming that kind of leader your pup needs you to be. The reward is priceless! I also hope your flippant remarks were just made out of pride and defense. Like I said, we all make mistakes and it isn't fun to hear criticism, even though it's constructive but we hae the ability to change. 
You might want to take a look at the Urgent Rescue section where young, healthy, perfect dogs are dumped in shelters for jumping, chasing, barking etc. Too many will lose their lives either through gassing or heartstick to no fault of their own - just because their guardian didn't not teach them properly and showed lack of leaderhship. If you are not ready right now to have a pup and put in the work (and they are a lot of work why not re-home him before his food issues really become food aggression? It's just so much harder to re-train as an adult. I really hope you do right by your pup and wishing you both all the best!
Take care


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