# Grrrrr-Harsh correction at dog class



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I am still bothered by last night though Beau (10 mo) seems to be rather unscathed.

I am in a class that does allow for corrections and my corrections are mild and along the line of "helllo" using the prong as a gentle tap. We were working on stay under distraction (which for Beau is moving balls)

And the instructor had the line and gave him a very harsh repeated correction, for breaking the sit. Enough to have him first almost go up the line then avoid her for a few seconds; I have never seen him avoid anything. He bounced right back but I didn't.

I won't be giving her the line or signing up for more classes. My goal is not competition obedience and racking up points but to get past the NAPWDA obedience certification which is NOT points based. I do use the prong and Mr 75lb high drive, stubborn, puppy needs one sometimes but .........wow.......

It is so strange because I trained with a police officer who is a Master Trainer a few weeks ago specifically for help with outing a toy and his approach was much kindler and gentler....basically along the lines of holding tug=boring, playing tug=exciting - the only way the game goes on is if he gives it back to play again (IOW dont simply say out and take the toy away, that makes him want to possess it even more). Everything he did was motivational and he reminded me how he was still a baby. 

*As far as staying under the distraction of throwing toys, I am just going to start MUCH MUCH lighter. Would love suggestions on how to do it motivationally for a very toy driven dog.*

You know, I think this instructor believes the sun sets and rises on labs -- and she does a lot of field trials with them, Labs from my observation can be very hard knuckleheads who are tamed to work under command but don't have that relationship or bond you get with a herding dog. Well, that is me. A lot of labs make great SAR and detection dogs but I just don't mesh with them.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

well I'm glad Beau wasn't phased , definitely understand your concern, I think I'd be rather peeved to.

I can only tell you how I proofed a 'stay' with Masi who is VERY toy driven, and I did start with baby steps,,put her in a stay (sit or down, down seemed to work better with her initially), drop the toy in front of her, worked on a good leave it,,(eyes bulging out of her head that was TOUGH LOL) and a release, got the toy, tugged, played,,whatever,, worked on distancing the 'toy', and the stay/leave it/release..

Then started throwing it a short distance just out of reach,,same as above,,and just kept upping the ante.. She will return the toy, drop it (out it), I use a stay command, (maybe a sit or down or just standing I vary it),,throw it, and release when I want to.
I must say, she has pretty good self control, tho I can see her eyes bulging out of her head, and just frothing at the mouth for that toy...

Just some ideas on what "I" did...


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Wow, I would be really upset if a trainer I was using crossed the line like that. It's one thing to correct the dog, but to do it so harshly just shocks me. I'm not 100% PO but corrections should match the offense and it wasn't justified especially since she had so many more options. Redirection, a simple spin the other way to get his attention back on her...that come to mind immediately

Did you say anything to the trainer? Convey that it was inappropriate either at the time or after class? I'd for sure be saying something, especially if you have some classes to finish. She might have thought she was doing the right thing but she needs to know she upset you

At least you know you can protect him by not allowing her to control him any more

I've been around labs my entire life so I know their temperment well and how stubborn they can be, but if that's the way she trains I'd be running for the hills

Personally food is Delgado's BIG motivation and I'm working on "off" and if I place the food before him he's obeying me, but now I'm upping the ante by tossing it in front of him and telling him to leave it alone. If he breaks the sit or down I simply tell him no, give him a leash pop with the flat collar (not hard) to the side and make him sit or lie down again and try again. He doesn't get the treat until he's complied and he's learning that pretty fast, but you can tell it's SO hard for him to leave the treat alone. Again, it's what's working for me right now


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I did not want to have words with her in front of the class but I don't sense it would make any difference. I looked at her agenda (got it this week) for future training and the forced retrieve was one of the items (using ear pinch). I will simply not go furthur....it is just hard to find folks to work with who are not apalled by the "ghastly" pinch collar that I think we need at this point in time with this puppy.

I am not going to give her the line again though and will say why if she insists. 

Ok, whay y'all are saying is pretty much in line with what I was doing. I just don't up the ante (throwing the ball and expecting a stay) until we are solid with leaving the ball on the floor, then dropping it, then rolling it, etc. Little steps, mild corrections and mucho rewards for good performance....we just had not done the variant she put me through. (someone else holding the dog and me playing with the ball)


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

You know your dog best and if the prong is needed then use it. Like everything else, it's a tool and don't ever feel guilty because you're trying to do what's best for your dog


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Honestly what I saw was, to me, lack of generalization on his part which is part an parcel of training and why I wanted to go to a class with other dogs, new place, etc.

I am partially "There" in my yard with putting him in a stay and playing with, even swinging his ball on a string (but not throwing it yet).......but strange place, new tennis ball, throwing ball up in air......is a totally different setup in his doggie mind.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

You seem to have a game plan in mind- which is excellent. I'm sure it will work out well for you. If you are interested in another tool in your toolbelt, you could look into some crate games. They are specifically intended to teach impulse control and do so in a way that defines very clear criteria for your dog.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I had a "trainer" do this with my Princess Libby who's been coddled her whole life, she's a very soft dog - sheltie mix. It was at a photoshoot, where the pics were taken that are now used in Petsmart.
The trainer is the talent scout who got in touch with us for the shoot. 
This gal had been working with a few "teen" Labs earlier in the day, trying to get them to walk.
Basically jerking them around until they got tired of being jerked around and would walk nice.
I remember watching and thinking "gosh her tool bag is pretty danged small".
Well this was in the afternoon and I've never taught Libby to "stay" while walking away. 
She could stay for short periods but this required a longer "stay".
So the trainer figured she'd work with Libby and let me walk away - not even thinking she'd do this, I handed her the leash and walked off, and as soon as Libs broke the stay (which of course now she would because some stranger has her leash) she gave her a big ol' "pop" and almost pulled her over backwards.

Libby freaked out badly. Never has she been done this with. And started to literally run away.
I called her, and this dog is extremely expressive, and when she turned to look at me she kept right on going like "Screw YOU, YOU let this happen!!"

I learned a great deal that day about my dog - about harsh vs. softer corrections and about dogs losing faith and trust in their owners/handlers.

I got her back finally, and was po'ed, and now we had a dog we could not work with. I told her, she does not trust you at all any longer, now you'll have to re-earn it.
She gave her mega treats- the good ones - and finally Libs would take a treat but she would not work for this gal at all at that point.

You know your dog best. He trusts you, and that's a huge thing.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

I understand, I did the puppy socialization with Delgado not for the obedience because I know I can handle the basics, but for the play time and getting him used to working in a class situation. 

It's extremely hard to find a trainer that works with you, it's no different then trying to find a good doctor or dentist lol If you find a good one you stick with them for as long as possible


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I have heard good things about crate games and will look futher into that. Fortunately we just joined an agility class (and they don't mind him wearing the prong to class though I put on dead ring) and that is all motivational as well. I still believe there is a place for corrections but only when the expectations are clear.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

jocoyn said:


> Fortunately we just joined an agility class (and they don't mind him wearing the prong to class though I put on dead ring) and that is all motivational as well.


Off topic, but I have to tell you- when we first started agility, they told us of the importance of the dog "running naked" (no collar) and how it could get hung up on equipment. I thought it was silly, but with a 6 year old dog with a decent foundation of obedience- I was actually happy to comply. There was a Briard in class with NO obedience who had to run with a collar and lead. I watched that dog get the collar caught on a bar jump and drag the bar jump all over the agility ring in crazed desperation. It was actually pretty scary to see. Definitely work as hard as possible to move to a place in your training where a collar isn't needed for agility.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Thanks for the insight. We are definitely moving towards eliminating the prong..


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

msvette: Raised and showed Shelties for years and years. They do not forgive, at all.......... You hurt them by giving a harsh correction, they will never forgive you. I probably would have jerked on that trainers neck.

The dogs we seem to have the most problem with at the clinic is the labs, they are just strong dogs with a high pain tolerance. You could probably hit them over the head with a 2x4 and they would still just wag their tails.
I haven't seen ear pinch training done in years, surprised they still do it in public training, can't imagine how owners react to the pinch,yelp, shove in dumbell. 
they can be taught retrieve with a clicker so much easier.


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## SDChicken (May 6, 2012)

I say go with your gut. You know your dog better than anyone. I pulled Meatloaf from herding training because of the trainer. She was just too harsh. Now for her border collies she had the right amount of pressure. Meatloaf wasn't of that personality and it would shut him down. I wouldn't go back or I'd have a talk with him/her. If the talking wouldn't work and she is limited in her tools I'd just find a different trainer if at all possible.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

It was at the moving balls/harsh correction stage of my classes when I decided not to continue with them. I figured that if I didn't like it at that point, it was only going to get worse. 

I think the Master Trainer knows GSDs, so for most people to look at a 10 mos. old puppy, they see 'dog' but we know they're still babies and should be treated like one. 

On the bright side, since Beau didn't seem to mind too much, you can be happy that he has solid nerves, lol...not much of a consolation. I hate when trainers have a breed bias, and I don't really trust them. If they can only relate to breed-specific traits, they they should limit themselves to only working with that breed and leave the rest alone - just MHO.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Blanketback said:


> I think the Master Trainer knows GSDs, so for most people to look at a 10 mos. old puppy, they see 'dog' but we know they're still babies and should be treated like one.


Exactly! I wish I could just take off work every Wed to go train with the Police K9 unit. May see if I can set something up to meet up with one of them on the side for some extra money. They really liked Beau and tested him with gunfire for me too. [once again, they started at a distance to see reaction before they brought him close..it was all good--he was curious about it]

I have the feeling if she had done that to a three year old Beau she would have had a fight on her hands. I don't want to go there.


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

wyominggrandma said:


> The dogs we seem to have the most problem with at the clinic is the labs, they are just strong dogs with a high pain tolerance. You could probably hit them over the head with a 2x4 and they would still just wag their tails.


 

Off topic, but I had asked a trainer what the difference was between a yellow, chocolate and black lab and her response was to tell me a joke(could have the colours mixed up). A chocolate lab requires a bamboo pole, a black lab requires a 2 x 4 and it doesn't matter what you do to a yellow lab.


To OP, go with your gut. If you are getting somethng out of this class ask the instructor not to correct your dog. I would do that in private. Reserve your opinion until you have that conversation. 

I have accidently given my dog a harsher correction than I meant to do. I felt guilty for the rest of the class.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

The correction was intentional (repeated, like 4 or 5 harsh jerks in rapid succession) and too harsh. One that I would reserve for some grevious offense not breaking a stay. Not for a puppy.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

jocoyn said:


> The correction was intentional (repeated, like 4 or 5 harsh jerks in rapid succession) and too harsh. One that I would reserve for some grevious offense not breaking a stay. Not for a puppy.


WHAT?! *Way* too much overkill  One pop is enough, I would personally never give more then that, especially to such a young dog

She's lucky I wasn't there, I'd be "correcting" her right on the spot in front of the class, that's ridiculous. That's borderline abusive for such a little thing


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

It definitely phased him. I am going to see if he has any issues being handed off to other people, and if he does work on restoring trust, but he seems quite resiliant....his distress was only for a few seconds then he was all bouncy again.

He is not getting a free ride with me; I have had three different NAPWDA Master trainers meet him and they all liked him and they all told me he was going to to give me a run for my money and to always stay in charge with him. No agression issues just a pushy punk. But they know the breed better I guess and know what is appropriate and when.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

I agree different dogs need different levels of training. My parents had a lab who I swear *could* take a 2x4 to the head and still come back for more 

Up the correction as needed, if a simple "uh uh" doesn't work, then move on to a leash pop or a poke in the side to get attention. The worse I've done to Delgado is scruff him once when he was really young and was continuing to bite hard after yelping and trying to redirect to a toy. He never bit me intentially again and it didn't hurt him

The fast she escalated the correction that fast for something so small is the reason why I think it was way too harsh


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

I wanted to also add that if a dog does something intentially then that warrents a harsher correction then if they do something instinctively

Big difference in my mind


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I think that's really excessive, but no doubt it will work. And that's what bothers me about harsh trainers - no doubt it will work, but at what expense? They're training other people's dogs and if they harm them, what do they care? Take the money, intimidate the dog into submission, and voila - "trained". Any brute can do it...that's not "training" in my eyes.


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

Yes, 5 -6 pops is a lot for breaking a stay, 5-6 pops is a lot for anything.

I saw a trainer take a dog from the onwer (permission granted) and correct the dog for lunging and almost biting another dog at an event, and give him 2-3 harsh corrections when he did it again wiht the trainer with the leash. This dog was lunging, barking and growling at every dog that happened to be withing 15 feet. There were a lot of dogs around so this dog was going crazy.

Your dog breaking the stay showed that he/she was not ready for that level of distraction. The trainer should have adjusted the level of distraction and not corrected your dog so harshly.


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## Chance&Reno (Feb 21, 2012)

WOW! way too harsh for the offence. I don't blame you for being upset. Thankfully, your dog doesn't seem to have been that affected by it. 

As a trainer, I've had to give harsh corrections to dogs but the correction has ALWAYS met the offence. 

The mark of a good trainer is one who has many tricks in their training bag. Every dog is different and to have breed bias or to abuse an animal in the name of training is not neccessary. 

I form relationships with the dog and the human. I do it to get a sense of the human's capabilities and the dogs tollerances. My training is based on these factors and changes with each client/student. My clients/students are not $$ signs to me, they are people and their dogs are members of their family. I make that VERY clear to them from the moment we meet. It goes a long way in making people comfortable with the type of training. 

Even as a trainer, I am sickened by what she did to your dog. I would never have tollerated that and I would have said something to her on the spot about it. No one treats one of my furkids like that.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Honestly, I was too stunned and that is not an excuse but an explanaiton.
He has been completely normal all day today.
I have been bothered about it since. Everything about him but his appearance screams puppy.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Jocoyn 
Im not an expert at all and I would defer to your experience any day but two things stand out
1. 5 to 6 jerks is not a teaching tool it is rather a new obstacle. I always thought perhaps wrongly that the snap was to gain their attention ,not punish. Daisy is definitely her own dog. A quick snap could get her attention but she would have shrugged it off as nothing if I did it in rapid sucession. W/ Lucky who is soft that would end any desire for him to learn or work w/ that handler.
2. I think someone who favors a breed is normal but to treat a dog differently based on breed and to ignore the fact he is very young,yes a baby by GSD standards and actually Lab standards. She doesnt sound very bright. I love all dogs ,not so much the toy breeds but each breed brings something different and unique to the table. Her job is to find a way to teach each dog.Beau sounds like a great nerved dog who b/c of you and your work w/ him is solid. My non expert view anyways.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

The trainers at our obedience club never correct the dogs or even take the lead from the owner, unless it's some kind of emergency or potential danger. The whole point is to teach you how to train your dog. They use their own dog or a helper's dog to demonstrate something rather than using a student's dog. I certainly wouldn't hand the lead over to that trainer ever again.


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## childsplay (Jan 28, 2012)

Nancy,

I had a very similar experience. My trouble was on the FIRST day of a BEGINNERS obedience class and Uther was only 4 months old. She took him from me because he wasn't staying in his sit and gave him several hard pops in the middle of the circle. I wish I had a stronger personality and could have told her off on the spot...but I'm not good at that kind of thing, so I just left the class and never went back. 

I agree with Stosh's post. I won't be handing the leash over to any trainer until I know and trust them.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

No, I am firm on that now...I will not release the leash.........wow..........what are people thinking?

The obedience stuff is one of my weak points as we have not in the past required the level of obedience we are now needed to test to. Mainly CGC and drop on recall were our requirements. I can get the dog to work offlead, hunt for, locate and indicate on source odor......but focused heeling........well, need to be shown


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## YukonGal (Aug 25, 2011)

I wholeheartedly agree with Wildo - Crate Games. I've been doing them with my 11 month old puppy for a few months now and he's awesome at sit/stay. I took him to a local park and had his all time favourite tennis ball and threw it at least 10 time - he never broke once until I released and it goes back to Crate Games! Now the "out" and "bring back to my hand" is another story......


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Ok I have heard enough on that. Sit/Stay is critical for the cadaver work (dog must stay with source odor until he is released) and yesterday was pay day...the DVD looks pretty reasonable in price.

Had LE help me with out (no problem playing ball but my issue was outing a tug) and the main thing the LE fellow said to me is "you ask the dog to out then take away the toy"...... I was amazed how much better it was when he learned that giving me the toy means I will shortly tug with him again, slowly increasing the time until he gets it back. He also said to condition the dog that holding it vertical means "mine" and out in front of me horizontal means (with the release word) "take, games on".....Now the focus and self control is amazing! 12-15 inch thin tug, no handles works great......two hands on the tug when playing.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

Yes Nancy I would not go back. Another thing is that if that wonderful drive for the ball is what you will use for scent work I would not use that as a distracter. You want him to go ballistic for it yet correcting him for doing so. 
Also for the tug yes. That is the reason many patrol dogs have an out problem. Dog finally outs and sleeve goes away. You can play two tug with him and get a super consistent out. Pup releases tug on command and wow,i get another one. Do that several times and he will spit the tug in anticipation for the other one can use the ball or tug to teach the sit. The passive dog does not get paid until he exhibits the desired sit. You can train that using your reward toy. When you get a solid sit for a reasonable period,reward. I train all obedience motivationally like this and the dog is far more consistent because he is getting paid. Makes sense?


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