# How to structure and teach the Family (pack) walk?



## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

I have a challenge that I would really appreciate some input on.

I take our pup Apex away from home often to train/expose him to the world, when I do it’s just him and I, meaning I leave the family at home. This is going great he will heel when asked, when told ok he will break heel for loose leash walk. That said he is not so good that I could give my kids the leash. I figure it can only get better if we keep working at it. He is 2 weeks shy of 9 months old. 

I noticed the start of this in June, it is something we just don’t do a lot of….yet. We went to the beach the other day as a Family - husband, 2 kids, and me. Upon getting out of the car pup on 6’ leash he wanted to be in the front of all of us, he would not heel pulling hard. I don’t know if it is that he wanted to be in front or he just wanted to run like the wind to where ever we were going, he was really excited. Had I let him off leash he would run in front of us, but I know he would only go so far, turn and wait, rinse repeat. Anyhow I kept the leash on; my kids are about as patient as the dog so they ran up ahead and my husband followed. The pup and I stayed behind waiting for him to get under threshold to walk normally. Apparently I was asking too much of him lol. I thought I owned a Husky with the amount of whining howling yipping and barking going on, I didn’t even know he could make all of those sounds. Apex was not happy to be away from the pack, it was a really long walk to the beach…..

Once done at the beach he and I left first and he walked fine on the leash. 

I am wondering if this is something I should start working on now or could he be too immature? 
Is this pack drive related? 
Are humans considered part of the pack to a dog (sorry maybe stupid?)? 
Should I start by taking one kid with me to train, and then add a kid, and then add a husband? 
How should we arrange our positions for a family walk, where should the dog be? 

That is all the questions I can think of to ask. I am sure I am missing something. 
I had no idea pack walks would be harder than just a walk. :/
Thank you in advance for any input.


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## Solamar (Jan 25, 2017)

With regard to pack structure and walking, I've read on this site that it can be a challenge. I haven't really had any issues with it though.

But, I am VERY familiar with taking a 9 month old (now 10) GSD to the beach. My pup will be asleep in the back seat and as we get close (2-3 blocks) she SMELLS the beach. Instantly a spazz, crying, wimpering, more excited than my kids on Christmas morning... Parking, gathering the towels and such all of the awesome obedience training is gone. "SIT" aint happening 

She's young, absolutely loves the beach, and is pretty darned good 99% of the time. I let it slide at the beach, for now.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

My puppy is now 9 months, and - of course - we've had similar experiences? She is also well behaved, does loose leash walking and heels well etc., but there is a certain threshold beyond which her youth and excitement gets the better of her and she just cannot contain herself! On the bright side, I have noticed that the threshold has risen considerably over the past few months, so I'm pretty confident that she'll be just fine in the end without psychiatric intervention LOL.

I loved the Husky comparison, it was so appropriate! On a recent outing I did the same thing, waited and let others go ahead thinking Nyx would calm shortly...boy, was I wrong! She made noises that sounded like I was beating her! It got many a strange look from people nearby...and in the end, I waited for a small window of good behavior so as to end the torture on a positive note. And like Solamar, I just chalked it up to yourh and let it go. Nyx has been really good on walks since then, so it's all good. 

Can't really speak to the pack walk question though, I've never had to deal with that one. But your suggestion seems right, add one person at a time and build on each success! Good Luck!


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

Solamar said:


> With regard to pack structure and walking, I've read on this site that it can be a challenge. I haven't really had any issues with it though.
> 
> But, I am VERY familiar with taking a 9 month old (now 10) GSD to the beach. My pup will be asleep in the back seat and as we get close (2-3 blocks) she SMELLS the beach. Instantly a spazz, crying, wimpering, more excited than my kids on Christmas morning... Parking, gathering the towels and such all of the awesome obedience training is gone. "SIT" aint happening
> 
> She's young, absolutely loves the beach, and is pretty darned good 99% of the time. *I let it slide at the beach, for now.*



If you let it slide for now .....when do you not let it slide? 

Bad Behavior should never be rewarded, period. 

The first time unwanted behavior occurs it needs to be squashed, if you allow it to continue you will (at some point) try and correct it.

And because you have allowed to slide, it will be more difficult to correct it.


Kim


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Pirates Lair said:


> And because you have allowed to slide, it will be more difficult to correct it.
> 
> Kim


Difficult for you, unfair for the dog.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Apex1 said:


> I have a challenge that I would really appreciate some input on.
> 
> I take our pup Apex away from home often to train/expose him to the world, when I do it’s just him and I, meaning I leave the family at home. This is going great he will heel when asked, when told ok he will break heel for loose leash walk. That said he is not so good that I could give my kids the leash. I figure it can only get better if we keep working at it. He is 2 weeks shy of 9 months old.
> 
> ...


Hmm interesting, while I don't have kids ... I do recall once on a walk "Rocky" was off leash with Marilyn and I and group of folks approached us and one of them came forward and asked if she could pet him, while he was off leash. As by now I'd not any untoward aggression towards anyone??? And he had met many strangers by now ...but it was "always just he and I. This time how ever were his pack. And based on previous experience ... I said yes! I did not actually what happened ...but I did see the "stranger turn pale??? 

Marilyn reported that Rocky had snapped at her??? As I did not actually see it ... I can't say but clearly something happened and it was only because ... we now his pack! So there is that. 

But still ... back to basics as we usually don't all walk together ...no big deal. But to your point yes "Pack Dynamics" can apparently make a difference?? 

So now you know. But back to basics ... since he already "apparently" knows how to walk "properly on leash" you just have to allocate a bit more time. I'm thinking ... let the family go ahead and you do this.:





He already apparently "knows" how to walk properly so he simply does not get to follow the "family" until he chills the heck the out! You need say "nothing!" Let him do "whatever" he will figure it out and when he does ... he will stop, stand, and then most likely Sit and look up at you for direction at that point you say "OK" and if you go! Most likely that will take less than 5 minuets or so?? 

It's just an unexpected, new behavior that you have not seen ... no need to freak out ... back to basics.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

Solamar said:


> I let it slide at the beach, for now.


I see you know the excitement level. Do you think in time the novelty wears off? What signs would you watch for to know now is the time to not let it slide? If the behavior persist what where would you start?



tim_s_adams said:


> My puppy is now 9 months, and - of course - we've had similar experiences? but there is a certain threshold beyond which her youth and excitement gets the better of her and she just cannot contain herself! On the bright side, I have noticed that the threshold has risen considerably over the past few months, so I'm pretty confident that she'll be just fine in the end without psychiatric intervention LOL.
> On a recent outing I did the same thing, waited and let others go ahead thinking Nyx would calm shortly...boy, was I wrong! I waited for a small window of good behavior so as to end the torture on a positive note.


HA! I see you know that excitement as well. May I ask how long you waited? In the window did you go home and end the outing? I certainly see many good things coming with maturity so I have no issue avoiding certain situations until we work through more impulse control focus. Do you think it's a matter of time?




Pirates Lair said:


> If you let it slide for now .....when do you not let it slide?
> 
> Bad Behavior should never be rewarded, period.
> 
> ...


Are you saying we should have gotten back in the car and went home? Not sure how I would have squashed the behavior? I can see how it was rewarded....may be it eventually.



Chip18 said:


> Hmm interesting, while I don't have kids ... I do recall once on a walk "Rocky" was off leash with Marilyn and I and group of folks approached us and one of them came forward and asked if she could pet him, while he was off leash. As by now I'd not any untoward aggression towards anyone??? And he had met many strangers by now ...but it was "always just he and I. This time how ever were his pack. And based on previous experience ... I said yes! I did not actually what happened ...but I did see the "stranger turn pale???
> 
> Marilyn reported that Rocky had snapped at her??? As I did not actually see it ... I can't say but clearly something happened and it was only because ... we now his pack! So there is that.
> 
> ...


That is interesting Chip. Was this the first hint of people aggression? 
We certainly have a different dynamic going in the family walk. Pack drive, herding, crazy puppy? He really tries hard with his exuberance, I trust he will be a patient gentle adult. I think he will surprise me with behaviors I do not see coming.... I suppose like most things i can fumble my way with some advice along the way. I don't want to be unfair. If there is an efffective way to get it done id rather it pointed out. Your advice is what was in my head we waited a good 10 minutes LOL he SAT next me howling, yipping and barking while LOOKING at me! LOL begging to just be free I guess. Poor pup and the dreaded leash. I see your point and even if it took 30 minutes I should have just kept at waiting? I suppose I was to eager to get to the beach as well. We didn't take it slow enough? I will try again. I don't know if I freaked out I mean I am a mom we have to be cool under pressure.  I just kinda looked at the dog and laughed like what the heck do I do with this?! My husband was like what the heck was that all about once we finally reached the beach! It was 2 steps stop position 2 steps stop position. 


Thank you for all the input everyone. Hopefully all the quotes work. Appreciate everyone's time.


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

*Quote* "Are you saying we should have gotten back in the car and went home? Not sure how I would have squashed the behavior? I can see how it was rewarded....may be it eventually."



How you interpreted that post as getting back in the car and going home I'm not sure? , I'm saying you should have corrected your dogs behavior then and there, make it walk/heel beside you until you decided it could run around excited. 

Believe or not, dogs....like children enjoy discipline, and discipline does not mean pain. Discipline is guidelines, rules in life, consequences to one's actions or lack thereof. It shows them you care enough to take the time to teach them.


If bad behavior is corrected immediately (squashed) it is not a big deal to the dog, you just taught it something new. If you allow the behavior to go on and on and then one day correct it the dog is confused and probably will not comply, why would it since you have allowed it in the past?

You squash bad behavior immediately, as soon as the dog complies you praise the **** out it.


Kim


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Please excuse the long winded reply, but it's difficult to really explain briefly.

Apex1, perhaps if I explain the situation I found myself in with my puppy it will help you to understand what myself and others are saying. Folks feel free to correct me if you see that I'm wrong!

I have the greatest respect for Kim @Pirates Lair as he is a professional breeder and trainer and has an amazing program (if you haven't seen any of his videos, check out prior posts!).

Not sure of the appropriate percentage, but I'd guess somewhere around 95% of the issues pet owners or novice trainers have with their dogs/puppies stem from trainer error. And that's why it's really good advice to consult a professional trainer if when you have issues with your dog or puppy. I'm not saying you, or anyone else, can't persevere and EVENTUALLY resolve a given issue, but a good balanced trainer can help you get there quicker and easier, typically with much less stress.

Okay, so in the situation I mentioned in my previous post, I had unintentionally set my puppy up for failure - again, trainer error! My sister had just gotten a new dog, and knowing I frequently exercise my dog at our local dog park (because it's one of the few areas I have access to where she can be offleash), my sister asked if she could ride along. This was the first time my dog had had to share "her" car with another dog. And though she handled it well, when we arrived she was definitely in an unusually agitated state. In hindsight I should not have chosen that particular time for a training session, it was unfair of me. And letting my sister and her new dog go first while I made my puppy wait, added to the unfairness and frustration for her. 

But once started, as @Pirates Lair mentioned, you HAVE to follow through and not reward the bad behavior. I found myself in the same 2 steps forward, stop, move her back into position, 2 steps forward scene that you mentioned, with the dog howling and whining each time we'd stop. I'm not trying here to speak for others, but @Pirates statement below is important, I took the liberty of adding the bold highlight to emphasize my point.




> I'm saying you should have corrected your dogs behavior then and there, *make it walk/heel beside you until you decided it could run around excited.*


I waited until my puppy quieted completely in the correct position for a bit, and then praised and released her - before we got all the way to the entrance. It was a mistake on my part to set her up for failure like that, so I chose to end the session, but only after she quieted - the window of good behavior I mentioned. It only took her a couple minutes, but it's really important for you to also remain calm too, because if you're tense it will definitely take the dog much longer to settle. And it wasn't easy with all the people looking my way and muttering?.

In your situation, I think your pup's reaction had little to do with any pack issues, and more to do with the introduction of multiple things at once. If Apex is used to walking with you only, and now he's walking with multiple people, of course it's exciting! I don't think you mentioned whether this was his first trip to the beach or not, but the added excitement that comes from investigating a new place, or going to a place that's fun but only visited rarely, is also bound to put your puppy in an agitated and excited state. 

Like any training, you build on incremental improvements. Introducing multiple, big changes at once is a recipe for failure. But I understand, life happens. I don't believe a single outing is going to have any lasting consequences. I would suggest asking other family members to accompany you on your regular walks, in your usual spots, to get him used to that. And you might consider taking him to the beach yourself, to practice behaving appropriately. I would even suggest considering going to the beach and walking only halfway, then turning around, going back to the car and leaving. As I noticed with my puppy they learn to expect a given outcome from a series of events, so it's always good to mix things up so that the ONE constant in everything you do requires the dog to focus on you for direction.

I saw early on that I needed to make a conscious effort to vary the order of commands we practiced. At about 5 months of age, I noticed her not paying close attention to me, and just trying to cycle through all of the commands she knew to get the treat quicker! So it really taught me to mix things up. 

As this relates to walking and heeling, I try to always vary the order of things. Sometimes I make her heel for a few blocks before releasing her to sniff and pee. Other times I release her at the beginning. Sometimes I make her go for six blocks without a break, other times only a block or two....then I walk really slow for a bit, so that she never knows what to expect!

Dogs live in the moment, delayed correction does not work for anything! So turning around and going home wouldn't teach him anything. Making him sit quietly before releasing him will. And again, not trying to speak for anyone else, but IMHO squashing bad behavior takes on many forms. My puppy became leash reactive toward other dogs shortly after I got her home. To squash that behavior I chose to desensitize her incrementally, by just sitting in the park on the grass watching other dogs walk by at a distance, and then slowly over time reducing the distance until she was able to control herself right next to the path. She now walks by MOST dogs without any reaction at all. But every once in awhile, she for some reason she will still react a bit with specific dogs. Since she's fully aware of the behavior I want to see, when that happens I sternly correct her immediately, and done, we walk on.

I do think that age makes a huge difference in a dog's ability to remain composed in new situations. But I also actively teach her patience all the time. For example, she does not leave either the house or the car until released, and we practice this daily. I also place treats in front of her and even on her paws and make her "leave it" until released. It's good practice.

Again, sorry for being so long winded here, but hopefully you'll find at least some of this helpful! Good Luck!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Apex1 said:


> That is interesting Chip. Was this the first hint of people aggression?
> We certainly have a different dynamic going in the family walk. Pack drive, herding, crazy puppy? He really tries hard with his exuberance, I trust he will be a patient gentle adult. I think he will surprise me with behaviors I do not see coming.... I suppose like most things i can fumble my way with some advice along the way. I don't want to be unfair. If there is an efffective way to get it done id rather it pointed out. Your advice is what was in my head we waited a good 10 minutes LOL he SAT next me howling, yipping and barking while LOOKING at me! LOL begging to just be free I guess. Poor pup and the dreaded leash. I see your point and even if it took 30 minutes I should have just kept at waiting? I suppose I was to eager to get to the beach as well. We didn't take it slow enough? I will try again. I don't know if I freaked out I mean I am a mom we have to be cool under pressure.  I just kinda looked at the dog and laughed like what the heck do I do with this?! My husband was like what the heck was that all about once we finally reached the beach! It was 2 steps stop position 2 steps stop position.
> 
> 
> Thank you for all the input everyone. Hopefully all the quotes work. Appreciate everyone's time.


No that's nothing to do with Rocky and myself. That's Larry Krhon, and his first time out with a new client's dog. I like it because it exemplifies, the point I was trying to make in my SLL thread on BoxerFroum! Except ... in my "experienced opinion" Larry is doing to much work. 

But I digress ... soooo ...back on pointe, Apex1 did nothing wrong??? It was a trip to the beach ... it was not "suppose to be a "training/proofing" exercise??? But she got, unexpected behavior from her dog, in a new situation??? 

Crap happens no harm no foul and I will say that under most circumstances for me, ... it it takes more than five minuets to get a dog just to walk ... I'm in for a challenge! I've only two out of several, that took that much time to go on a loose leash walk. And to actually go on a "Loose Leash walk!" And to actually "Sit" well acting like a "tool???" 
Well I will say ... I've not seen that??? 

And most likely sure ... a "Pro" could have gotten her dog over this "crap behavior" quicker and faster???? But near as I can tell ... most "Pet People" don't really care about time??? It takes what it takes ... "I don't care" least ways that's my take on the time thing?? 

Now I will say, a properly used "SLL" with the little tabby snugged up high ... actually becomes the dogs focus! I'm not even there, they screw around trying to get free and then "most" give up and "Stop" then "Sit???" And look up and await further instructions?? I look down and say "OK" and that is ... the end of discussion. And if further correction are needed ... it's just a slight tug "sideways." And an onlooker would observe "nothing" untoward happening! 

So the dog/puppy actually "Siting" and still, acting like a "tool??" Is kinda new to me?? I've not seen that before??? Most likely a "slight tug" sideways and a "Ptssss" would have stopped it?? And yesss, unlike some ... I have found Cesar's Ptsss, extremely effective, 
but maybe it's just me??? 

At any rate ... the term "Correction" tends to freak people out?? It is subject to interpretation??? And people seem to "assume" it means ... "I need to yank the crap out of my dog/puppy??" But ... "NO" an effective "Correction" depends on the dog and the circumstances ... hence ... the "Pet Convincer" a tool not subject to owner "interpretation" ... just saying. 

Carry on all.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

Pirates Lair said:


> *Quote* "Are you saying we should have gotten back in the car and went home? Not sure how I would have squashed the behavior? I can see how it was rewarded....may be it eventually."
> 
> 
> 
> How you interpreted that post as getting back in the car and going home I'm not sure? , I'm saying you should have corrected your dogs behavior then and there, make it walk/heel beside you until you decided it could run around excited.


I have no idea how in that moment I could have made my dog heel. Not sure exactly how to proceed so that it is not an issue in the future. "Corrected my dog" I have no idea what that implies.




Pirates Lair said:


> Believe or not, dogs....like children enjoy discipline, and discipline does not mean pain. Discipline is guidelines, rules in life, consequences to one's actions or lack thereof. It shows them you care enough to take the time to teach them.


I believe those things and do my best to ensure they be established. I would have loved to have the moment be teachable :/ I failed



Pirates Lair said:


> If bad behavior is corrected immediately (squashed) it is not a big deal to the dog, you just taught it something new. If you allow the behavior to go on and on and then one day correct it the dog is confused and probably will not comply, why would it since you have allowed it in the past?
> 
> You squash bad behavior immediately, as soon as the dog complies you praise the **** out it.


I don't know what "correction" in that moment would have gotten a calm behavior and the ability to loose leash walk. My intent is to not let it continue but to train the desired behavior. <get a good trainer> probably not gonna happen.



tim_s_adams said:


> Please excuse the long winded reply, but it's difficult to really explain briefly.


One of the most sincere forms of respect is actually listening to what another has to say.




tim_s_adams said:


> I'm not saying you, or anyone else, can't persevere and EVENTUALLY resolve a given issue, but a good balanced trainer can help you get there quicker and easier, typically with much less stress.


Agree



tim_s_adams said:


> Okay, so in the situation I mentioned in my previous post, I had unintentionally set my puppy up for failure - again, trainer error! My sister had just gotten a new dog, and knowing I frequently exercise my dog at our local dog park (because it's one of the few areas I have access to where she can be offleash), my sister asked if she could ride along. This was the first time my dog had had to share "her" car with another dog. And though she handled it well, when we arrived she was definitely in an unusually agitated state. In hindsight I should not have chosen that particular time for a training session, it was unfair of me. And letting my sister and her new dog go first while I made my puppy wait, added to the unfairness and frustration for her.


I honestly thought we could walk to the beach, unexpectedly, just like you, found myself in a predicament. He was overthreshold, I understand, I was calm because what could I do other than leave. I could not release him until I saw it was all clear for no leash. What's done....i see unfairness.



tim_s_adams said:


> In your situation, I think your pup's reaction had little to do with any pack issues


I tend to disagree, based on the intencity of emotion in his reaction, my gut, and nothing more. I was just curious, inclined to think, maybe good for sticking with your people.




tim_s_adams said:


> and more to do with the introduction of multiple things at once.


Agree 100%



tim_s_adams said:


> I don't think you mentioned whether this was his first trip to the beach or not, but the added excitement that comes from investigating a new place, or going to a place that's fun but only visited rarely, is also bound to put your puppy in an agitated and excited state.


Not first trip to a beach, rarely as family, was a new place for us all.



tim_s_adams said:


> Like any training, you build on incremental improvements. Introducing multiple, big changes at once is a recipe for failure.


Clearly! LOL. My mistake. 



tim_s_adams said:


> But I understand, life happens.


Clearly 



tim_s_adams said:


> I would suggest asking other family members to accompany you on your regular walks, in your usual spots, to get him used to that.


Yes, I agree, winter I think will be good for that. Less distraction. 



tim_s_adams said:


> I would even suggest considering going to the beach and walking only halfway, then turning around, going back to the car and leaving.


Oh you are harsh! LOL I get your point albeit as continued in your text. 



tim_s_adams said:


> ONE constant in everything you do requires the dog to focus on you for direction.


I would bold that statement, if I remembered how. I really get that. 




tim_s_adams said:


> desensitize her incrementally


Yes, this is the route I will be fumbling through. 



tim_s_adams said:


> She now walks by MOST dogs without any reaction at all.


Good job. 



tim_s_adams said:


> I do think that age makes a huge difference in a dog's ability to remain composed in new situations.


I was rather concerned by this. Expecting to much. I think if he could have given me what i asked he would have, he is just so young. Apex is brilliant so capable, he has a dodo for an owner lol. He has so much potential I think. I do not know if I should push or just let time pass and try again later....maturity. The jump in understanding from 6 to 8 months, interesting to see. Maybe his age is a real factor? Heck idk it's why I ask. 
Being a first time dog owner, I have had cats!




tim_s_adams said:


> find at least some of this helpful! Good Luck!


Very informative thank you. I have gained clarity. Assimilating information/direction can sometimes be hard for me and you helped alot. The training you spoke to is the direction I had in my mind, I appreciate the clarity and confirmation.



Chip18 said:


> No that's nothing to do with Rocky and myself. That's Larry Krhon, and his first time out with a new client's dog. I like it because it exemplifies, the point I was trying to make in my SLL thread on BoxerFroum! Except ... in my "experienced opinion" Larry is doing to much work.


I know that was not you.  
To just stand and wait was what I did, but I think not long enough. I didn't really know what else to do. Patience is one thing i am blessed in. 



Chip18 said:


> But I digress ... soooo ...back on pointe, Apex1 did nothing wrong??? It was a trip to the beach ... it was not "suppose to be a "training/proofing" exercise??? But she got, unexpected behavior from her dog, in a new situation???


Was just a walk to the beach, but most everything at this age seems to be an exercise in training lol. I was certainly in a pickle.



Chip18 said:


> Crap happens no harm no foul and I will say that under most circumstances for me, ... it it takes more than five minuets to get a dog just to walk ... I'm in for a challenge! I've only two out of several, that took that much time to go on a loose leash walk. And to actually go on a "Loose Leash walk!" And to actually "Sit" well acting like a "tool???"
> Well I will say ... I've not seen that???


Walking on leash has probably been the most difficult for me. We have put a lot of work into it and I'm good with what we have so far. Will keep working at it. I never got a LLW this day, I did get a sit next to you and stare at you while yelling at me. Lol 



Chip18 said:


> And most likely sure ... a "Pro" could have gotten her dog over this "crap behavior" quicker and faster???? But near as I can tell ... most "Pet People" don't really care about time??? It takes what it takes ... "I don't care" least ways that's my take on the time thing??


I have come much less concerned by time. More interested in finding what works when.



Chip18 said:


> Now I will say, a properly used "SLL" with the little tabby snugged up high ... actually becomes the dogs focus! I'm not even there, they screw around trying to get free and then "most" give up and "Stop" then "Sit???" And look up and await further instructions?? I look down and say "OK" and that is ... the end of discussion. And if further correction are needed ... it's just a slight tug "sideways." And an onlooker would observe "nothing" untoward happening!
> 
> So the dog/puppy actually "Siting" and still, acting like a "tool??" Is kinda new to me?? I've not seen that before??? Most likely a "slight tug" sideways and a "Ptssss" would have stopped it?? And yesss, unlike some ... I have found Cesar's Ptsss, extremely effective,
> but maybe it's just me???
> ...


I tried NO,Eh, had a flat collar on, I was calm, idk I just in that moment in time could get zero control. At least I know I have an issue to work through and we will. The term correction is certainly left to interpretation it is rare that it is given any specifics. Honestly LOL when I was standing there while my dog acted like a tool I thought to myself wish I had a Pet Convincer! HAHA I am not even kidding. I think I will watch some vids of CM's and practice my own Ptssss. EH works well but I am still perfecting my tone. Leash breaking a free spirted pup is work. At least for me....

I agree that what is needed in a given situation depends on the dog and circumstance. I really lack experience, obviously 

I am unsure how or what a balanced trainer would do when a pup is in heightened state like that. I have seen a Pet Convincer used tho, I could have done that, wether it would have worked or not....???

Thanks very much


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Aww ... no need to freak ... you got off guard by your dog. And if he actually sat for a full time minuets ... while still acting like a tool??? Well, that is impressive but no doubt frustrating. 

You had the right plan ... *"we don't forward until the dog is calm"*, but he wouldn't stop the foolishness ... while sitting??? You still had options and Plan B, from my "teach Your dog to ignore other dogs" ... would be "turn around and go the other way." Then try again. So instead of being rewarded by getting closer ... he get's punished by getting further away! At some point ... he should figure it out?? I have no idea how long and how far in the other direction you'd have to go?? But it's a "correction free" self extinguishing behavior approach. Most likely that would be a rather time consuming and tedious process but I'm sure ... Victoria Stilwell, would approve. 

Plan A ... as Kim stated ... address the issue directly by "Correcting the Dog" directly! And that is where a "leash correction" comes into play, and a proper leash correction ... becomes "subject to interpretation???"

So ... here we go. Prong guys/girls always tend to say ... leash pop. And for them ... a leash pop is a "wrist flick sideways" and it would be pretty a seamless motion ... I would imagine??? As I don't use a "Prong Collar" ... I have to reinterpret that because I use a "SLL" and for me that turns into a "slight tug sideways." 

You don't "correct" by pulling "Straight Back" you correct dogs with a sideways "correction" to ... get them "off balance." Dogs are strongest when they "pull" forward! Engineering not with standing ... that is what dogs tend to do. If an owner does the same and pulls straight back against them ... they are playing the dogs game and they usually lose! But by and larger ... most owners tend to "interpret" a leash "pop" as yanking the crap out of the dog while pulling straight back?? And yeah that's not gonna work, I seriously doubt no would get very far with that approach with this guy??? :









So now ... if any of this was "clear??" You should be able to see that ... even though your dog was "Sitting" you could ave still given him a "leash correction" with a sideways tug! Or yeah just use a "Pet Convincer" and call it a day.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Aww ... no need to freak ... you got off guard by your dog. And if he actually sat for a full time minuets ... while still acting like a tool??? Well, that is impressive but no doubt frustrating.
> 
> You had the right plan ... *"we don't forward until the dog is calm"*, but he wouldn't stop the foolishness ... while sitting??? You still had options and Plan B, from my "teach Your dog to ignore other dogs" ... would be "turn around and go the other way." Then try again. So instead of being rewarded by getting closer ... he get's punished by getting further away! At some point ... he should figure it out?? I have no idea how long and how far in the other direction you'd have to go?? But it's a "correction free" self extinguishing behavior approach. Most likely that would be a rather time consuming and tedious process but I'm sure ... Victoria Stilwell, would approve.
> 
> ...


Do you have a video demonstrating the sideways pull?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

cloudpump said:


> Do you have a video demonstrating the sideways pull?


I would love to see this slight tug to the side on an amped up dog and how it works.


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## griz (Jan 1, 2001)

our dog definitely wants everyone in the pack to stay together and gets upset when someone leaves. Every time my husband and I go out, we take turns leaving him with the other and walking away. Yesterday we did a 5k and he wanted to keep up with the pack ( we walked) so again another training experience. Its definitely something we work on several times a week .


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

Chip18 said:


> Aww ... no need to freak ... you got off guard by your dog. And if he actually sat for a full time minuets ... while still acting like a tool??? Well, that is impressive but no doubt frustrating.


He is a dog with passion LOL.



Chip18 said:


> You had the right plan ... "we don't forward until the dog is calm", but he wouldn't stop the foolishness ... while sitting??? You still had options and Plan B, from my "teach Your dog to ignore other dogs" ... would be "turn around and go the other way." Then try again. So instead of being rewarded by getting closer ... he get's punished by getting further away! At some point ... he should figure it out?? I have no idea how long and how far in the other direction you'd have to go?? But it's a "correction free" self extinguishing behavior approach. Most likely that would be a rather time consuming and tedious process but I'm sure ... Victoria Stilwell, would approve.


I did do plan b. I mean plan B, I use that a lot, was/is very helpful in training to where we have made it today. While time consuming and yes tedious I did not spend the time he needed to get calm. I'm sure it would have happened eventually??? Next time everyone will know what to expect and I can warn everyone it may take me an hour to get to the beach but we will get there. *crosses fingers, prays..LOL

I do still wonder if it may be better to avoid the situation, perhaps being less stressful training session down the road?? If not I rather just get going.




Chip18 said:


> Plan A ... as Kim stated ... address the issue directly by "Correcting the Dog" directly! And that is where a "leash correction" comes into play, and a proper leash correction ... becomes "subject to interpretation???"


My experience with the prong is pretty limited. I do use it occasionally and its been useful. I think the prong, in my hands, at that moment, would have stopped some of the force in pulling, but the erratic behavior I'd still not break. I do not know how id use a prong in that situation to get the desired affect. Probably the same would be true for SLL.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I would love to see this slight tug to the side on an amped up dog and how it works.


Oh the ..."blending issues bit???"

Well the fact of the matter is "when I do a clip" ... well more than likely it ..."won't be here first" ... "Chip specific rules here so yeah ..." But that aside, you will "never see me trying to "Walk" an amped up dog??? Who does that???

That is why "I" use an actual SLL, snugged up high, so I don't walk amped up dogs and that is our first conversation and the dog pays no attention to me. And I wait until he is done and stops the foolishness! 

They "usually" stop and stand and wait and I say "Nothing!" Then they offer a "Sit" and usually look up?? At that point, I say OK and off we go, usually issue free. At "that point" the slight tug sideways comes into play.

And usually it takes a 5 minuets or less to have dogs walking as well as Rocky or Struddell. Thus far I've only had two exceptions ... a big headed (breed that should not be mentioned.) And he did not want to get with program. He rear upped, then ploped down, then grabbed the leash, then bolted to the right. And I waited and the clock ...ticked past 5 minuets?? Then he stopped that crap ... but he wasn't done yet!! After a few steps he darted hard and fast in front of me??? And yeah not a pull exactly but ... that was a surprise. It took 10 minuets, to get him to that point but the owner was bored and did not care enough to continue, so you know whatever. But that dog ... was not a "Struddell!" 

And my neighbors "plopper downer." I should have known, as I got none of the expected behavior?? But as she started to bolt forward I did my usual "slight tug sideways" and she instantly slammed to the ground, like she'd been hit with an E-Collar on 130??? That was a surprise??? 45 minuets to get a half house from home. She did better at the Vet Office and I was the only would that could get her to move at all!

And she did fine on the Vet's grounds ie ... away from home. She has to go back for surgery, and that was her only outing out of her yard in 6 years!! Unless I work with her ... it's gonna be a fairly unpleasant, experience at the vet's office for her. Most likely she will be my first clip ... since she is next door. 

But nope ... I've never done clips because, I never understood what I did was anything special, ... until I took "Deer Dog" away form his struggling owners hands and used a makeshift slip lead on Deer Dog and sigh ...yes a Boxer! That was ... epic, I should have videoed it ... live and learn.

And just to note, a "SLL" is also a "DDC," but I've never had need to use it as such for *"walking a dog." 
*I don't fight with dogs ... I train them.


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

Apex1 said:


> He is a dog with passion LOL.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't know who mentioned a Prong, I use them very rarely. A simple choke chain fitted properly is all you require, the _quick snap_ of the choke is not painful and it gets their attention when done correctly.



Kim


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## KaiserAus (Dec 16, 2016)

Ignoring the beach excitement for now, as I feel that is an issue you would have even if you went to the beach on your own... the beach is just so great  Maybe try the beach on your own a few times until you've got him behaving like you want and then add in the kids  

I don't let me kids walk my dog, if he decided to take off after something they would just be dragged along. But I have also had the issue of him pulling to get ahead or pulling to reach the kids that are in front of us. And he absolutely hates it if they are on their bikes and we are walking and he has to watch them ride away... the only thing that has helped with this... strict heel and plenty of practice. We go out on a family walk at least once a week where the kids can ride or run or whatever and he has to behave, it is just another thing that he has to learn and he getting much better at allowing the kids to go ahead and not jumping on them when they come back to the group.

As with everything its teaching them what you want them to do, not allowing them to do what they want.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Apex1 said:


> I am unsure how or what a balanced trainer would do when a pup is in heightened state like that. I have seen a Pet Convincer used tho, I could have done that, wether it would have worked or not....???
> 
> Thanks very much


Hmm ... well I may have mentioned a "Prong Collar??" But I did not mention it as a suggestion??? 

Some owners with actual hands own, instruction can't get the Prong Correction right??? Hence, the Pet Convincer, that would be a better option for you. 

The PC takes "interpretation" of what's a proper "correction" off the table. And it works the same as a regular correction given by more traditional means ... it "interrupts the behavior" and delivers a "consequence" for bad behavior. 

When the wait thing did not pan out as expected??? You had no Plan B??? That's where you got stuck as it were. And, you can't not go to the beach because of this and you shouldn't have to wait an hour to get going forward??? 

Try again ... give him a minuet or two to chill out if no response, try a NO and a slight tug sideways with the flat collar?? If no respond deploy the PC a quick blast and say nothing. That will get a response! Then when he is quite/calm you can proceed forward. 

Depending on his response you may not need to do a repeat?? You should also be working on "Sit on the Dog" also. Get to the beach and do that first ... before letting him play.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Oh the ..."blending issues bit???"
> 
> Well the fact of the matter is "when I do a clip" ... well more than likely it ..."won't be here first" ... "Chip specific rules here so yeah ..." But that aside, you will "never see me trying to "Walk" an amped up dog??? Who does that???
> 
> ...


I was asking a serious question. Do you have a clip on a side tug? Also of the use of a pet convincer.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

cloudpump said:


> I was asking a serious question. Do you have a clip on a side tug? Also of the use of a pet convincer.


My answer to your question ... as long winded as it was, is in the post you quoted. 

And the "PC" trainers I respect and follow recommend, it to there clients and use it themselves. Beyond that ... yes, I recommend and I get feed back form the field. Only had one owner with an issue, it freaked her dog out! Sigh ... yes a Boxer, I suggested ... "OK you've made your point, so put the PC away and just try the "PSSST" sound, she reported back ... that worked out fine! Good enough for me.  

As for me ... SLL, only, when and if that ever, changes ... I'll let folks know. Oh and deaf dogs don't count ... I'll have to go with an E-Collar for recall, just saying.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> My answer to your question ... as long winded as it was, is in the post you quoted.
> 
> And the "PC" trainers I respect and follow recommend, it to there clients and use it themselves. Beyond that ... yes, I recommend and I get feed back form the field. Only had one owner with an issue, it freaked her dog out! Sigh ... yes a Boxer, I suggested ... "OK you've made your point, so put the PC away and just try the "PSSST" sound, she reported back ... that worked out fine! Good enough for me.
> 
> As for me ... SLL, only, when and if that ever, changes ... I'll let folks know. Oh and deaf dogs don't count ... I'll have to go with an E-Collar for recall, just saying.


 none of the trainers that you be read up on have posted a clip of what you are describing? Or you can't post a clip? I'm not asking for what you do. I want to see how it works. No accusations or antagonistic intentions.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Oh the ..."blending issues bit???"
> 
> Well the fact of the matter is "when I do a clip" ... well more than likely it ..."won't be here first" ... "Chip specific rules here so yeah ..." But that aside, you will "never see me trying to "Walk" an amped up dog??? Who does that???
> 
> ...


Cloudpump asked for the video, not sure why you singled me out, wrong messenger perhaps?

Regardless, I said nothing about walking a dog that was amped up. I just simply agreed with Cloudpump that I would like to see a video of a slight tug applied as a correction on a dog that is amped up. Or are you saying that in such a situation you would still be using the slip lead as a correcting tool for a dog not looking at you? It is just too confusing for the rest of us. That is why I would like to see a video of this correction that you keep speaking about. I can't visualize it off of your written word.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

cloudpump said:


> none of the trainers that you be read up on have posted a clip of what you are describing? Or you can't post a clip? I'm not asking for what you do. I want to see how it works. No accusations or antagonistic intentions.


Hmm ... OK ... I see ... or actually, I don't see??? And as they say a picture is worth a thousand words and I've done much more than that on this subject alone but ... no, no pictures. 

But I thought well surely I've posted it??? So first stop was Cesar and Cassie and while it was interesting, and was sure I'd seen the "sideways thing with him???" Nope that's not what I saw here and I will have to say ... he just a much different approach with the leash thrashing than I did. The collar fitted high and snug is about the only similarity, I don't do the multiple upward "corrections." 






So back to my "SLL" thread and here.:





And again while interesting ... yet again, not what I said or do??? I actually "thought" what I described was actually shown in my thread or uh somewhere??? But apparently not??? 

And in the real world with the owner standing right beside while I did what I do ... he saw nothing! Save for the fact that the dog that was pulling seconds ago ... was not now! I did not video that session either because you know ... everybody does this??? 

So ... lack of video is a hugh, over site on my part ... apparently. I just "assumed" the sideways bit, was a given as I went straight from a Regular Collar and a Flat Leash ... the first time I was given a rescue and I was told be careful with ... him he pulls. :laugh2:

I don't let dogs bang into a regular collar, by stopping them before they get there and it is one quick swift motion but you pretty transparent. So there was nothing new for me with a SLL, save for the little tabby thing. 

But ... OK point taken ... I will rectify info that I "assumed" was out there and had posted?? As the saying goes ..if you want something done right .... But I don't work fast so there is that. Thanks for pointing it out ...my bad.


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## Solamar (Jan 25, 2017)

Pirates Lair said:


> If you let it slide for now .....when do you not let it slide?
> 
> Bad Behavior should never be rewarded, period.
> 
> ...


I don't feel like there was a reward, just temporary acceptance of less than ideal behavior. But I understand that the pup probably did not know the difference... 

This Saturday we walked to her favorite swim spot on the lake. She was excited when we got to the spot, put her in a sit and unclipped the leash. She immediately bolted towards the water, I called her back and told her to sit which she reluctantly did (I was impressed) waited a few seconds then released her to play. We're both learning :thumbup:


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Solamar said:


> I don't feel like there was a reward, just temporary acceptance of less than ideal behavior. But I understand that the pup probably did not know the difference...
> 
> This Saturday we walked to her favorite swim spot on the lake. She was excited when we got to the spot, put her in a sit and unclipped the leash. She immediately bolted towards the water, I called her back and told her to sit which she reluctantly did (I was impressed) waited a few seconds then released her to play. We're both learning :thumbup:


Good progress! You might consider making your dog routinely wait until he's released with a verbal command always. I do this for feeding, leaving the house or the car, leaving the back yard, and when unhooking the leash. That way I don't have to worry about the dog running out just because one of these portals is open, or running off just because you unhook their leash. To practice I routinely open the car door and step away, or open the house door into the garage and the garage door so my dog can see the great outdoors, then I busy myself with another task or two before returning to the dog to give her the release command - meaning it's now okay to leave the house. When unhooking the leash I make her sit-stay, unhook the leash, then pause for varying amounts of time before giving her the release command. It's great impulse control practice, and I've really noticed an overall improvement in her focus in other areas too.


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

Solamar said:


> I don't feel like there was a reward, just temporary acceptance of less than ideal behavior. But I understand that the pup probably did not know the difference...
> 
> This Saturday we walked to her favorite swim spot on the lake. She was excited when we got to the spot, put her in a sit and unclipped the leash. She immediately bolted towards the water, I called her back and told her to sit which she reluctantly did (I was impressed) waited a few seconds then released her to play. We're both learning :thumbup:


*"Temporary acceptance of less than ideal behavior"* LOL, I love this! This is Genius stuff! 

Modern day phrase for "rewarding bad behavior" I'm getting so old and out of touch......._I can't wait to use this line at training !_

Anyway, it sounds like you have everything under control now. Have fun with your pup.


Kim


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Pirates Lair said:


> *"Temporary acceptance of less than ideal behavior"* LOL, I love this! This is Genius stuff!
> 
> Modern day phrase for "rewarding bad behavior" I'm getting so old and out of touch......._I can't wait to use this line at training !_
> 
> ...


LOL ... it actually took me a bit to get one??? Apex1, ...you should have phrased it differently ... Kim got you on that one.


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

Chip18 said:


> LOL ... it actually took me a bit to get one??? Apex1, ...you should have phrased it differently ... Kim got you on that one.


I'm serious, I love this stuff, 

I can't wait to use this phrase! LOL It's right up there with "_All kids Win a Ribbon at Sports Day"_ 

Before long, any dog that competes.... in ANY Sport....will get a Title!

_Because we certainly don't want to offend an incompetent handler, the trainer or their well bred GSD.
_

Give them all a Ribbon, and then we can sit around the fire and sing together!



Kim


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Pirates Lair said:


> I'm serious, I love this stuff,
> 
> I can't wait to use this phrase! LOL It's right up there with "_All kids Win a Ribbon at Sports Day"_
> 
> ...


Well it was a creative answer! Between her and you I got stumped??? I was gonna say ... "the reward was the dog/puppy" got what they wanted! But the explanation for that ... was kinda unique!  

But he,y ten minuets waiting for a dog to be calm before you can walk them ... is a long time! I have only had that happen once! And that dog was not "patient enough to sit ... for ten minuets! He did everything to ditch the SLL and the high and snug thing! And when he did stop the crap and we could walk ... he did the hard bolt from left to right in front of me ... "WTH???" 

But my "plopper down" was worst!! 45 minuets to go a half a house from home??? But ... whatever, I was first a Boxer Guy ... so no dog is gonna "Patience me!" If the owners will allow ... I'll get another shot at "Bre" ... "Boxer/Pitt" mix.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

I debated waiting to post until I had results, but I have time to kill….



Pirates Lair said:


> *"Temporary acceptance of less than ideal behavior"* LOL, I love this! This is Genius stuff!
> Modern day phrase for "rewarding bad behavior" I'm getting so old and out of touch......._I can't wait to use this line at training !_
> Anyway, it sounds like you have everything under control now. Have fun with your pup





Chip18 said:


> LOL ... it actually took me a bit to get one??? Apex1, ...you should have phrased it differently ... Kim got you on that one.


Well technically the words quoted by Pirates Lair are not mine, they were from Solama’s post.

So I am not alone the pack walk can be a challenge. 

I was caught off guard that day; I have been putting my time now to see where my breakdown is. I tend to think that my situation at the beach is a leadership issue. 

I have spent the last few days+ mulling things over. Spending a lot of time with pup on the 6' leash in my hand...pondering. I guess sitting on the dog, a lot less long time, No off leash. Worked on Good and No, Stay, down stay, sit stay, walk with me, and do not DART on the leash dog. He has had more crate time and oddly he isn’t complaining at all. We went back to basics and I see my mistakes. 

I think I may have it under control....

When we try again I expect it to NOT be an issue, if it is an issue it will be one I feel I can fairly correct, in a way I feel comfortable with, at that moment and move on. I will take the prong collar next time just in case, but I expect to achieve the desired result with the flat collar. If I have to use the prong and do NOT get the desired behavior….well we will pack up and go home and I will ship him off to boarding school J/K. 


We will try a pack walk this week and I think it will go much better than it did last week. At first I am going to keep us together in fixed positions, walking as a pack, if that goes well we will see what happens when one person leaves the walk and rejoins. Play around with different scenarios. I will post an update when I have one. 



I did want to also comment on the videos. 

I have seen a video on the use of a Pet Convincer, I see possibilities, dog was not amped up like mine. I could probably get the same effect with a squirt bottle wish I had had one at that moment. I see it the same as the quote below. 


Chip18 said:


> The PC takes "interpretation" of what's a proper "correction" off the table. And it works the same as a regular correction given by more traditional means ... it "interrupts the behavior" and delivers a "consequence" for bad behavior.


I have seen videos of corrections for jumping via prong. I have not seen much work with young or excited dogs. 

I watched the CM video posted by Chip, that is the first time I have seen someone work with a dog that out of control. 

What CM did with his energy alone I found very interesting. Since watching it, I have visualized a command without saying it and the dog does it??? Since watching each time I give a command I visualize and it helps a lot. Freaking weird, there is something to this for me to figure out. 

Raising a puppy into a well behaved dog may be simple for some, not true for me. It is new to me, I am a cat person! I do have nice cats tho. :grin2:

I am really proud of my puppy I believe he will be a great adult dog. We just gotta do the work. :nerd:


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Cloudpump asked for the video, not sure why you singled me out, wrong messenger perhaps?


Not singling you out??? LIFO (last in, first out) simply that. 



MineAreWorkingline said:


> Regardless, I said nothing about walking a dog that was amped up. I just simply agreed with Cloudpump that I would like to see a video of a slight tug applied as a correction on a dog that is amped up.


Aw well ... people that all ready know how to train a dog ... tend to make a lot of base assumptions??? So to be clear ... I'd not "Correct" a ramp up dog! I would/did ..."wait" until the dog was "Calm!" So the actual "question to be answered would be "Well how long does that take???" And I would answer ... with a "SLL usually" ... than 5 minuets! I've only taken more than 5 minuets ... to walk two dogs. And of them ... hugh headed (Breed that shall not be mentioned" was the only dog I was not eager to throw "even my slight tug sideways on!" Most likely ... I could have but I was not eager to see if he was an "Up leash dog???" 

He did "fake being calm??" And when I thought he was done with the crap and we moved. He darted hard and fast in front of me ... so you know "WTH???" Clearly even 10 minuets of patience with him ... was not enough??? 

So it would have been ... back to stand and wait ... yet again, if I'd have been given the chance. So no ... there was no "Slight Tug Sideways" the dog was not ready to be "Corrected" at any level in my "opinion???" Perhaps ... I am a master at "Compressing Time???" Ten minuets struck me as a long time ... but whatever, I don't start with "Corrections" at any level as long as it's not a matter of life and death. I got's loads of "time" ... I'm a patient guy ... "Boxer thing." 



MineAreWorkingline said:


> Or are you saying that in such a situation you would still be using the slip lead as a correcting tool for a dog not looking at you? It is just too confusing for the rest of us. That is why I would like to see a video of this correction that you keep speaking about. I can't visualize it off of your written word.


As I've said ... I work rescue and the only tool they will "hand you" is a "SLL!" I'm good with that so yes ... it is the only "tool" I use. 

And as for the dog "Looking at you" ... I put more emphasis on the dog being calm and doing ... "nothing" as long as the leash stays loose ... I don't give a crap what the dog looks at! Deer dogs comes immediately to mind! The leash went "dead slack???" I was speaking to the owner and forgot the dog sigh ... a "Boxer" was even there??? I had to look down and saw him staring at something?? I followed his gaze and saw not one or two deer but three deer! About 15 yards away and the dog never moved??? Even I was stunned ... I looked at him and said "OK" and of we go ... no big deal.

The rest of the story, is just the other day ... the owners had to chase him down for three blocks across Virgin City ... because he was chasing Deer! Even I was stunned at that one! 

But no ... I train calm, what the dog "looks at" is not important to me ... but the dog not acting like a fool is! And "Deer Dog" was a five minuet or less dog and a "Slight Tug Sideways dog" and the owner was right there and "apparently ... never saw it happening?? But hey ... "No One Does" apparently???

But hey ...if people want to "Assume" that look at me, and the treats, distraction thing is a "necessity" for "loose leash walking???" They are free to do so. I do family pets and rescues and I put more of a value on "Do Nothing Dog!" Works out fine ... for my dogs and dogs I do not know! 

But OK apparently the slight tug sideways ... is way more of a big deal then I realized perhaps that would explain why in more than ...
8730 views on my SLL thread ... I've can only report about 8 people ... that have had success??? Oh well frankly ... I think ... good enough! But yeah in retrospect ... I suppose I need try and do a bit better??? But doing that kinda sorta fly's in the face of my "Prime Directive" I only present information from trainers I trust ... it's up to owners ... to do as they see fit! 

I'm just JQP, slight above average pet owner ... and I take what I learn and apparently ... put more of a spin on it then I was aware of??? Perhaps ... I'm not the messenger for my message?? 

But hey OK ... I hear the critics ... so when I get back in the game ... I suppose yeah ... I'll have to "Show My Work!"


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Apex1 said:


> I debated waiting to post until I had results, but I have time to kill….
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm to lazy to cut out my parts of this post so ...

As I have said "Corrections are subject to interpenetration" and though ... I posted that clip anyway. I was surprised that he did not do "my" slight tug sideways??? I'd have swore he did??? But aside from the "high and snug" with the owner supplied choke chain and ... some degree of waiting ... that was about it?? I kinda sorta differ a bit more than I thought?? I'm a bit more patient. I'm not gonna put my hands down there into "Crazy" and he actually does walk ... "amp'ed up dogs" and does way more "upward leash corrections???" I'd just as soon not but I suppose ... sideways or upwards corrections ... not that much difference but I prefer "my way." 

But you know screw that I'm not doing a TV show ... I can wait, when I do post a clip ... I can guarantee the first 5 minuets ... will not have a lot of user input! 

And yes ... you are correct "Pack Walks" are apparently a bit different?? On one occasion, when I was with Rocky off leash with Marilyn, someone from a group asked to pet him?? As I had ...never seen and issue with he and I alone I said ... yes. The stranger approached and all I saw ... was her face turn pale and she backed away??? I thought ... "whatever people are odd???" But Marilyn was between Rocky and myself and Marilyn said ... "Rocky" snapped at her??? 

As I did not see the snap ... I don't count it against him. But assuming that did happen ... "Pack Dynamics" were at play ... and pretty much all my work done with him ... was with he and I alone! 

As I say ... I did not see it but clearly something happened and the only change was we were both together??? So yeah ... you got caught off guard and stumbled into something. I'd only say ... I'd go with a PC over a "squirt bottle" pretty sure the "squirt bottle" will just be annoying ... the "PC" however ... will get his attention!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> I take our pup Apex away from home often to train/expose him to the world, when I do it’s just him and I, meaning I leave the family at home.


Basically the same here Apex, probably even more so because he goes to work with me so all the training and 99% of his life is spent with me. With all the dogs we've had that we've lived with like this there's always a few excited "holey cow, what are you guys doing here" moments when we go hiking or camping. The more experience with it, the quicker it tapers off till its no big deal. Keep up your obedience like you are, and it'll all come together.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> What CM did with his energy alone I found very interesting. Since watching it, I have visualized a command without saying it and the dog does it??? Since watching each time I give a command I visualize and it helps a lot. Freaking weird, there is something to this for me to figure out.


See if this makes sense. With a dog anything physical always takes precedence over anything verbal, especially until you've created an association with the verbal, but even then you have to fade out anything physical to get that response to only verbal .They're always aware of your body language and with some dogs, they're quicker to react to it, good and bad. 

With that shepherd, that level of crazy is an escalation of things to where now the lady is actually cuing it without knowing it. She's anticipating the dog going nuts and accidentally setting it up to happen. Could be as subtle now as how she changes her grip on the leash. They're aware of all those things. Stick with your ob so you reverse that. The dog anticipates and gives the right behavior, not the other way around.


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