# Aggressive behaviour toward Children



## Lorry (Jan 14, 2014)

Hello,

My GSD is 10 months; very strong and big. Unbeknown to us, the 4 small children next door to us taunted and teased him over a period of time. Their parents apologised to us.

Unfortunately he now acts aggressively toward children; baring his teeth, growling, lunging. This is even when the children simply talk.

He is fine with adults and is generally well behaved and listens to instruction. He is a dog of habits and we know that once we stop a bad habit, he will respond.

We are very worried he is going to attack a child. Any guidance on how we can train, re-train, work with him to change this behaviour.

Lorry


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Shame on those kids and the parents. Does he react in the yard? On a walk? Just those kids? All kids? 

How long did this happen for? How old are the kids? Is there a fence?


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## Ripley2016 (Mar 6, 2016)

I don't believe this can be "trained" out of a dog _reliably_. You may be able to teach him to be around children under close supervision or to leave when he does not like their behavior but please do not ever trust him around children especially small, unpredictable ones who are too young to learn how to properly treat an animal. If you don't have kids or plan to have kids, or yours are grown, then you can just be aware of this fact for if or when your dog is around kids.

I speak from experience of having to re home a dog I loved who was not tolerant with my baby. I would have paid enormous amounts of money to have this trained out of her, but every trainer I spoke with advised me of what I shared with you.

And SHAME on those parents. Grr.


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## Lorry (Jan 14, 2014)

Thank you for your response Ripley. How sad for you to have to re-home. Fortunately all my children are grown up although I think they may have balanced him out.

Llombardo: He appears to only do it from within our yard which is fenced with chain link. So far we haven't had any negative reaction outside of the yard. We thought perhaps it was just 'those kids' but he lunged at my 12 year old niece - all she did was speak (she had just come inside the yard)! The children next door are between 6 and 10 years.

We are very conscious of it at the moment and will try to work with him safely to get used to children without reacting. In the meantime, we will keep him as far away from children as possible.

You are both right though - shame on the parents of the children.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I would get a good trainer. I think this can be fixed if it's not genetic. And I might hand the training bill to the lovely people next door! This will take a lot of counter conditioning and training an opposite behavior.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Jax08 said:


> I would get a good trainer. I think this can be fixed if it's not genetic. And I might hand the training bill to the lovely people next door! This will take a lot of counter conditioning and training an opposite behavior.


I agree to get a trainer. And if it was caused by the children, then you should be able to fix it with a good trainer. 

I do not agree with handing the training bill to the people next door. They apologized for what their kids have done. But there are two sides to that story. The dog was left in a situation where neighbor children could taunt the dog while no one was home or available to put an end to that. So while the kids did the wrong thing, the owners did not protect their dog. The bill should be paid by the owners.

When having a large, formidable dog, it is best to keep neighbors on as best terms as possible. They apologized. I would let that be an end of it.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Find a trainer ... "I have a dog that is "now" aggressive with kids" but I don't have kids of my own can you help me??? Yesss ... good luck with "finding a trainer" for that one! Most of the "traditional trainers" "can't help you!" So if you see "Positive" only, or "Gentle" "anything" don't bother, waste of time, money and effort they can't help you!

If you want to actually find a trainer that can help you?? The only one that I am aware of that "routinely" deals with "Aggressive Dogs" and "Kids" is Jeff Gellman:


Solid K9 Training aggressive dog rehab, dog anxiety - Rehabilitation and Family Dog Training

I have heard him say that he can help people find a "Balanced Trainer" local to them. So I'd contact him, if you want to "find a trainer" thast can actually help you, if no one here has a local recommendation for you?? And ... dogs and kids ... looks like this:






And I did read the "Leerburgh" approach to kids (pack members and it was with babies) and it seemed kinda "insane to me??" But it involved the "scent" of the babies and the dog being "corrected" for going near that scent! That stuck me as kinda crazy ... but he's the expert. Not much help for you in any case ... just stuff I know. 

There are things you can do to help your dog "Make Better Choice" but in as much as he has already "apparently" lunged at your niece??? That tells you all you need to know! This dog should not be allowed near toddlers period! "Put the Dog Away" if you have "toddlers over" ... put the dog away end of.... discussion! Toddlers as a rule "Don't" make good choices! I "Don't" screw around with kids and dogs!

That said ... "Crap Happens!" And the best preparation for the unexpected ... is a well trained dog! Rocky (OS WL GSD with Ataxai) ... is by and large pretty boring these days. 

But ... back in the day ... he was a "Monster!" My first true "Red Zone" dog! And he was a "Wobblers" doggy so any kind of DDC, or Yank and Crank options ... were "off" the table! I had to find other means???

Aside from "Rank Drive issues" which are not your problem ... he had "people issues" he did not much care for uh anyone! And using "extreme" caution I discovered that "included" toddlers! 

The kiddie sequel would set him off and beyond that ... when I tried again ... using extreme caution ... to let a kid touch him ... he grabbed my hand instead of being able to bite the toddler and let go! When he realized he had me?? He let go ... OK that did not work! So ... I was part my there being around kids was fine. "Place" was OK but "toddlers" laying hands on hit ... a bit to much ... noted!

OK fine so what I did was to teach him how I expect him to behave around "people" and apparently a "by product of that" was that he learned to make "good choices!" As I am want to say ... "crap happens" and the best "preparation for the unexpected ... is a well trained dog!

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/8015033-post3.html

And in as much as I have found "no one" other than "Jeff," that deals with the "Kids and Dogs thing??? I would suggest that people that "don't" have kids ... at the risk of looking liking some kind of "creep" practice "Place and Sit on the Dog" around areas where kids hang out. Usually the kids will be safely "contained behind a 6 foot chain length fence. Your dogs job ... with "Place or Sit on the Dog" is to do "Nothing!" 

And Place and Sit on the Dog ... are here:

Fearful, Anxious or Flat Crazy "The Place CommanD - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums

My two cents ... KISS. 

Guess I have to add ... a few weeks ago, I did kinda sorta reluctantly let a older child pet him. I was kinda freaked when the kid reached out with both hands and grabbed him by the head!!! 

Rocky ... was like "No big deal." :laugh2:


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

Lorry said:


> Hello,
> 
> My GSD is 10 months; very strong and big. Unbeknown to us, the 4 small children next door to us taunted and teased him over a period of time. Their parents apologised to us.
> 
> ...


I'm in the not fixable camp. Even if the dog is not reacting to the taunting, from a dog's perspective, young kids are weird. Their body language is off, they don't modulate their voices, they're unpredictable--all of which will unsettle a dog with less than stellar nerve strength.

Dogs should be clear in the head enough to recognize a threat from a non threat. 

All of that said, he most assuredly needs training with someone who understands aggression. I would contact some local Schutzhund/IPO clubs for recommendations. I agree with the PP who suggested you avoid the purely positive training crowd, they generally don't have an understanding of canine aggression and all of it's various permutations.

Training will not eliminate the aggression. What it will do, however, is give you better control over your dog and the ability to read him accurately. You'll need the reflexes of a military test pilot to live with this dog.

I had a beautiful, sweet, wonderful GSD who was aggressive towards children. He had not been harassed by them, he just found them unsettling. To see him in action, you would never think that he had a nerve problem, but it was there. He was exquisitely obedience trained, on and off lead.

His aggression got worse as he got older. Despite his excellent training and socialization (he went with me to every obedience class I taught from puppyhood on and most other places), he made a serious lunge at my 15 yo stepson at age seven. He went right for his face. Like I said, you develop great reflexes. But, emotionally, it was a disaster all around.

So, seek out good training, work hard, but always stay realistic. And sue your rotten neighbors under a nuisance theory.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I would go the trainer route and I might even get those slates you put into chain link fences for privacy. I wouldn't trust those kids or parents ever again. 

Many years ago I had 4 dogs(none were GSDs) and these kids taunted them and teased them all the time--even with me right there. It didn't matter what I said to them, there was no respect. One day they decided to do so and the dogs got out. 4 of the kids ran and one stayed still--I was screaming at them not to move and of course they didn't listen to me then either. The bigger dog chased the kids and the smaller dog took the girl down. Luckily she had on a winter jacket on. He didn't rip the jacket, no teeth marks, but she was bruised. Now the kids listened to me when I told them not to move. I got the dogs in and took the kids to their house which was about a 1/2 mile away. I'm thinking boy these kids came awful far to tease dogs. I explained to the parents what happened and what had been happening. It was many years ago and that is all it took. No calling animal control or suing. I never saw those kids again, hard lesson to learn.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Lorry said:


> he lunged at my 12 year old niece - all she did was speak (she had just come inside the yard)!


Can you give more details about this? What stopped the dog?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Privacy fence between dog & thos kids so it cant ever happen again. I agree with trainer recommendations but thos kids decide to have another go for old times sake, it could undo a lot of work ad flush your trainer money.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Are there many trainers in Fiji?

I would just keep the dog separate from kids, in the house and the yard. If kids are visiting, dog gets put away. Honestly, the easiest and far safest solution. I don't take chances when it comes to small children and dogs.

If you start seeing aggression to children on walks or outside of the house, that can be addressed through strong obedience and spatial awareness on your part. 

My dogs don't mingle with unknown kids unless there is good reason- like a school demo. And for that I use a bombproof, kid friendly dog. Otherwise, I keep the dogs away from unknown children and I think by far, even for a friendly dog, that is the way to go. I know personally too many people who as kids were "just hugging" a family dog who had no history of aggression (and probably wasn't even aggressive) but the dog was hurt or startled and corrected the kid with a bite to the face. Wouldn't hurt a pup but can leave scars on a kid and then the dog is the one to pay with his life. 

I am all for management- physical management- with dogs and kids.

And do put up a privacy fence so the teasing can't happen again.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

I had to delete reply as it did not apply to the op


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## Lorry (Jan 14, 2014)

David Winners said:


> Can you give more details about this? What stopped the dog?


My niece (12yrs) stepped inside the gate with her mother and both stood just inside as I closed it. I had Bronson on a leash at the time and he was sitting quietly. Her mother spoke to Bronson and he was fine with her was trying to lick her. My niece (who was to the right of her mother) said 'hello Bronson ... you're so beautiful' and that was when he started growling and baring his teeth. Although she is 12 she has a high childlike voice very similar to the children next door. He then lunged and I had to pull back so only his hind legs were on the ground. I got him to sit again and told them to go inside the house. As soon as they were out of sight, he was settled and fine.


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## Lorry (Jan 14, 2014)

Thank you everyone for your responses. 

There is no doubt that a privacy fence will help and that is something we will be doing. Unfortunately that does not change what has already been done. I should say that we have taken responsibility for what has happened by not anticipating what could happen with the children. We have a very good relationship with our neighbours and they were remorseful for what happened. They understand that we are still training him. Money is not the issue, it's the well-being of our beautiful dog that matters.

We have a trainer here and his advice has been to re-socialize him with children. As mentioned in a few responses this includes taking him to places where there are children (ensuring there is fencing between them) and re-training him in getting used to the sounds, the sudden screeches and noises that children make. 

I feel, with re-training he can change. Be that as it may, I know we will have to be very mindful and aware in the presence of children but at least we can get him to a point where he won't attack.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Start training him with food to wear a muzzle. Get one you can feed through. Then when you get to the point that you are ready to bring him near a child you can just be totally relaxed and read hiis body language and reward good responses.

Your dog is lucky to have you, lucky to have owners who are willing to do what can be done to make this right.

Vet your trainer thoroughly, lots of quacks out there.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Lorry said:


> Thank you everyone for your responses.
> 
> There is no doubt that a privacy fence will help and that is something we will be doing. Unfortunately that does not change what has already been done. I should say that we have taken responsibility for what has happened by not anticipating what could happen with the children. We have a very good relationship with our neighbours and they were remorseful for what happened. They understand that we are still training him. Money is not the issue, it's the well-being of our beautiful dog that matters.
> 
> ...


I can't really stress this enough. You have to do the control work before you start doing counter-conditioning. The dog needs clear cut direction in these situations. Sit, Down, Heel, Watch, all of this is critical to have proofed with the dog under distraction.

When the dog does the wrong thing in a situation, you need to direct it. The correction needs to be meaningful to the dog. Breaking a down is plain as day to the dog if it understands the command and understands the consequences for breaking that down. If you correct the dog for just doing "something," it's up to the mind of the dog what it's being corrected for. With good timing and follow through, an experienced person can correct the dog when it starts the behavior and (hopefully) have some understanding. You don't have either of these things going for you, so you need to do everything possible to make commands, rewards and corrections crystal clear.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Lorry said:


> My niece (12yrs) stepped inside the gate with her mother and both stood just inside as I closed it. I had Bronson on a leash at the time and he was sitting quietly. Her mother spoke to Bronson and he was fine with her was trying to lick her. My niece (who was to the right of her mother) said 'hello Bronson ... you're so beautiful' and that was when he started growling and baring his teeth. Although she is 12 she has a high childlike voice very similar to the children next door. He then lunged and I had to pull back so only his hind legs were on the ground. I got him to sit again and told them to go inside the house. As soon as they were out of sight, he was settled and fine.


Was he barking before or after? Snapping teeth? Panting afterwards? Shaking? 

This could be dangerous for visitors. Keep people safe. It's your responsibility. I know you know this. I'm just reinforcing the importance of this.


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## Lorry (Jan 14, 2014)

David Winners said:


> Was he barking before or after? Snapping teeth? Panting afterwards? Shaking?
> 
> This could be dangerous for visitors. Keep people safe. It's your responsibility. I know you know this. I'm just reinforcing the importance of this.


No barking prior - just trying to lick the mother.
Growling & snarling immediately when the child spoke. She did not approach him at all.
No panting or shaking.

I understand this is extremely dangerous for children hence the question and we have never had a single issue with him of doing this with adults and, we receive many visitors. 

A point of note is that my niece is almost the same height as her mother and up until she actually spoke (in a childish voice), he was fine. We have a lot of bush between our house and the neighbours and it is difficult to see through to the other side. I wonder if it is not so much the 'child' or 'child size' as it is the 'sound' of the children.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Lorry said:


> No barking prior - just trying to lick the mother.
> Growling & snarling immediately when the child spoke. She did not approach him at all.
> No panting or shaking.
> 
> ...


I understand that they "why" is important to you. It is valuable information, but shouldn't be the focus of your work right now. I'm not disagreeing with you at all, as knowing this information will be helpful later in training. Right now, the fact that the dog lunged unprovoked is important, and steps towards stopping the behavior need to come first. Proofing with screaming kids as distraction comes much later 

Dogs are great at making lasting associations. That's why we can train bomb dogs that will respond to the odour of C4 without smelling it for years. Associations keep wild animals alive. Associations domesticated the wolf into the dog you have terrorizing your neighbour kids LOL. 

My retired working dog tore a chunk out of the thigh of a guy that used to taunt her when she was in her kennel. Here's a picture of her hanging out with my 6yo granddaughter in her playhouse. 










There's hope! Keep your chin up! One step at a time OK.


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