# Misuse of a prong collar



## Good_Karma

If there is already a thread on this, please point me in the right direction.

So I've heard lots of talk about how a prong collar is a good tool to have *If properly used.*

That begs the question: What constitutes misuse of a prong?

If you have used a prong, who taught you how to use it correctly?


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## chicagojosh

i googled "how to properly fit a prong collar" and that helped a ton. no one showed me. 

in terms of properly using it; just give a little tug. in many cases you won't even have to. they'll get to the end of the leash, feel the collar start to tighten and without effort on your part, just decide not to pull. in some cases (they see another dog, squirel) you may need to give a tug. 

how old is the dog you want to use it on? i know age can be a concern. i started using a prong on Cody around 7 months. honestly im not sure if that was too early, but with a 100 pound girlfriend trying to walk an 80 pound gsd, and a 70 pounds gsd mix, we really had no choice or my GF would not be able to walk them alone


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## chicagojosh

oh yeah, get one with the "quick release" feature


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## Good_Karma

I know virtually nothing about prongs and how to use or misuse one. I am beginning to think I have come to the end of my abilities as a trainer to teach my dog not to lunge for prey while we are on leash. Niko is about 15 months old. I outweigh him by about 15 lbs.

I really didn't want to go there with the prong. Not judging those who use one, but I've been convinced by trainers that they are inhumane. But I don't want to lose grip on the leash and lose my dog in the woods either.

I reached my limit today. With my leg still hurting from when he pulled me down a gravel slope on Saturday evening to chase a bunny, today he lunged for a deer that sprinted across the path in front of us. I had just gotten his calmed down and walking nicely again when we came upon a flock of turkeys trotting through the woods and up the path in front of us.

I'm not ready to buy one yet. But the door has been opened in my mind. I need to know what it means to mis-use one. Can I trust myself to learn how to properly use it? What is the likelihood of me screwing up and hurting my dog?


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## Chris Wild

chicagojosh said:


> oh yeah, get one with the "quick release" feature


I would highly recommend AGAINST this. While they do make the collar easier to put on and take off, these snaps are a weak point in the collar that can break and cause the whole collar to pop off. Even if they don't break, which I've seen many do, they tend to gum up over time which makes them very prone to getting stuck partially open, which again can lead to the collar popping off. When putting it on/off using the prongs, it is not only more secure but when one prong starts to wear out you can easily and cheaply replace with another so the collar stays strong and intact. Can't do that with the snaps.

As far as misuse, the most common problems I see are poorly fitted prong collars. Collars that are too tight, but more often collars that are way too big. Some so large it appears the owner thought they were supposed to slide over the head like a choke collar. This not only makes them ineffective it means that when the dog does hit the end he gets poked, not pinched, which is not the way they are supposed to work. And of course if sized too large, like any collar, the dog can slip out of them. The other common fitting problem is people buying the huge collars with the giant links, and a collar that is too heavy duty or with links that are too large, and thus not very numerous, isn't nearly as effective as a well fitted one.

I see a lot of people attaching the leash to both rings, or the wrong ring, instead of the correct ring that allows the collar to constrict and gives it the pinching action. Dead ring (both rings) attachment does have it's uses, but not for what most people use a prong for.

I also see a lot of people yanking the dog around too harshly or correcting with big pulls, neither of which are correct or usually warranted. A quick pop, typically requiring no more effort than a flick of the wrist, so the collar constricts quickly and then loosens quickly is the correct way to use a prong.

I also see people often leaving prong collars on their dogs all the time, whether they are using it or not. Leaving them on for extended periods of time, is not only dangerous but can cause pressure sores in the dog's neck. When not using it, take it off.


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## chicagojosh

well to be fair to your dog...bunnies, deer and turkeys are awfully tempting! lol

my dogs have never yelped once from a prong. they can not break the skin. i put on once and corrected myself....it's not that bad.

i was all about only positive reinforcement too. after trying positive "distraction/treat" methods, harness etc... i decided i had to try the prong out. and it is a god send 

don't feel bad. they really aren't painful, and if the dog behaves he won't have to worry about it.

Yes, it's easy to teach yourself to use it. fitting it properly is key. hurting your dog...i would doubt is if you fit properly. the prong is made of removable links to size correctly. put it just below the dogs ears with the prong part around the front of her neck. it should fit a couple inches higher than a normal collar would. unless your and NFL linebacker your corrections should not do any harm to your pup


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## chicagojosh

Chris Wild said:


> I would highly recommend AGAINST this. While they do make the collar easier to put on and take off, these snaps are a weak point in the collar that can break and cause the whole collar to pop off. Even if they don't break, which I've seen many do, they tend to gum up over time which makes them very prone to getting stuck partially open, which again can lead to the collar popping off. When putting it on/off using the prongs, it is not only more secure but when one prong starts to wear out you can easily and cheaply replace with another so the collar stays strong and intact. Can't do that with the snaps.


hey Chris,

what would you say the expected life is of one? as you know mine are the quick releasers. they've been great so far, have not come off or been gumming up. BUT, i'd like to pre-emptively get new ones before they break. a year or two? five? thanks


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## Good_Karma

chicagojosh said:


> well to be fair to your dog...bunnies, deer and turkeys are awfully tempting! lol
> 
> Ahhh, it's like friggin' wild kingdom out here! Don't even get me started on the stupid stray cats. And the squirrels and chipmunks. Niko even tried to chase an owl one time.
> 
> 
> . unless your and NFL linebacker your corrections should not do any harm to your pup


I'm not even close to linebacker material! But the trainers I used said they DID see it happen where dogs neck was punctured by the prongs. Maybe it was in a breed that is fairly insensitive to pain???


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## Whiteshepherds

Leah, have you tried using a harness on him? The ones with the ring in the front (chest rather than neck) do work pretty good. We have the Premier Easy Walk Harnesses.


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## chicagojosh

wow! punctued? i've never heard that.

All 80 pounds of Cody has gone barrelling after a bunny and came to a screeching halt when the leash ran out. he didn't even yelp, and certainly was not puncuted by it...


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## vat

How to fit a Prong Collar is a good site to learn how to fit. I was once afraid to use one but learned that a choke collar is so much worse and inhumane.

You need to get control before you get hurt and loose your dog, been there done that!


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## Good_Karma

Whiteshepherds said:


> Leah, have you tried using a harness on him? The ones with the ring in the front (chest rather than neck) do work pretty good. We have the Premier Easy Walk Harnesses.


No I haven't tried a harness or Gentle Leader. He's only been on a flat buckle collar. He walks like a prince as long as there is no prey around. If I lived in suburbia, it would likely be a non-issue.

Would you say to try a harness first? Have you had a harnessed dog lunge at something while you had him on leash? Niko has some serious urge to chase stuff. I think he'd keep right on hauling even if the pivot point swung him sideways a little.


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## Good_Karma

vat said:


> How to fit a Prong Collar is a good site to learn how to fit. I was once afraid to use one but learned that a choke collar is so much worse and inhumane.
> 
> You need to get control before you get hurt and loose your dog, been there done that!


Yes, I absolutely need to do something. I don't like getting upset with him. 

Is the prey drive something a dog his age cannot be expected to control? In other words, do I need to rely on a device (harness, prong whatever) rather than merely commands? 

At this point I'm thinking it's expecting too much to think I can train him not to chase prey by my current methods. Obviously I'm also doing something wrong.


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## jakeandrenee

I would try a prong, making a big difference for me and my pup Jake.


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## Rerun

Good_Karma said:


> No I haven't tried a harness or Gentle Leader. He's only been on a flat buckle collar. He walks like a prince as long as there is no prey around. If I lived in suburbia, it would likely be a non-issue.
> 
> Would you say to try a harness first? Have you had a harnessed dog lunge at something while you had him on leash? Niko has some serious urge to chase stuff. I think he'd keep right on hauling even if the pivot point swung him sideways a little.


Doubtful..we live in the suburbs in an older neighborhood, tons of big trees. Squirrels are around every corner and after I adopted Micah he would've been long gone after one of them without a prong. My dads neighborhood (not far away and also the suburbs) seems to have an overpopulation of rabbits, and only the prong kept his dog under control.

Prong collars are not inhumane if they are not used abusively. You don't have to be an expert dog trainer to use one. Chris Wild gave good advice, I'd recommend following it. You will know if you are using one abusively. Normal collar corrections are all that's required for most dogs. Just having one on will make a huge difference, try it on in the store after you read the article about fitting (google "leerburg how to fit a prong collar") and walk around with it.


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## JKlatsky

Yes. It s possible to put a puncture in a dog's neck from a prong collar.

It is much more likely to happen if you buy the cheap prong collars from the Pet Store. They have flat ends that look like they were cut off with metal snips and the edges are a good deal sharper than the prongs of a good collar that are rounded like the Herm Sprengers from Germany.

My dog has had a small puncture before from his prong collar. He was on a long line working on recall over the A-frame when out came a cat...He bolted, I stood firm, and he clotheslined himself. 85lbs of dog running full speed for about 20ft on the live ring. And when I say he punctured his neck...it was one or two spots that were very small...not like a full on prong embedded in his neck. They've had scratches from branches in the woods worse that that. And that's it. Not other dog has punctured their neck with a prong. And that's over 3 years of heavy prong collar usage. 

So I agree. You have to be really relentless and with the strength of a linebacker to damage your dog with a well constructed prong collar.


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## doggiedad

you had a choice. you could teach your dogs to
heel on either and teach them to heel with or without a leash.



chicagojosh said:


> how old is the dog you want to use it on? i know age can be a concern. i started using a prong on Cody around 7 months. honestly im not sure if that was too early, but with a 100 pound girlfriend trying to walk an 80 pound gsd, and a 70 pounds gsd mix, we really had no choice or my GF would not be able to walk them alone


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## doggiedad

does your dog need a prong? i like to teach my dogs to heel
on either side, with or without a leash. why is a choker worse
and inhumane to use? with misuse a choker
or a prong can be inhumane. if you use to heavy
of a hand with a flat collar that's inhumane also.



vat said:


> How to fit a Prong Collar is a good site to learn how to fit. I was once afraid to use one but learned that a choke collar is so much worse and inhumane.
> 
> You need to get control before you get hurt and loose your dog, been there done that!


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## Good_Karma

Okay I bookmarked the Leerburg site to read on proper fitting, thanks Vat!

I'm feeling a little bit like a failure. Should I have been able to train my dog to ignore prey? (the answer I'm looking for is no  )

And I understand that you can wean a dog off the prong too right? Niko is pretty smart, he'd know if he had it on or not when Mr. Squirrel came bounding by. Wouldn't he just either chase or not chase depending on his collar at the time? Or is it an effective enough training tool that he would automatically associate prey with discomfort (hopefully not lots of pain) and thus not chase?


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## JKlatsky

Good_Karma said:


> Yes, I absolutely need to do something. I don't like getting upset with him.
> 
> Is the prey drive something a dog his age cannot be expected to control? In other words, do I need to rely on a device (harness, prong whatever) rather than merely commands?
> 
> At this point I'm thinking it's expecting too much to think I can train him not to chase prey by my current methods. Obviously I'm also doing something wrong.


Puppies and young dogs are notorious for their lack of impulse control. It's like putting cookies in front of a toddler and then leaving the room. 

Only through time and training can you build up the ability to control a high prey drive dog. If things that move are so rewarding, you need to start doing obedience training outside. Try and see the squirrels before your dog does and encourage them to work even when those things do pop up. As your dog gets better and better about listening despite distractions you can expect more from them.

The prong collar is a training tool. If you rely on it forever, you're not using it as intended. 

It's been my experience that a certain amount of correction needs to happen after the learning phase to proof the commands. Once they understand that their are rewards for listening and consequences for not listening...commands become much more reliable.

In the meantime though...don't ask the dog to obey if you can't enforce and reward it. All they learn then is that there's no point in listening.


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## JKlatsky

Good_Karma said:


> Okay I bookmarked the Leerburg site to read on proper fitting, thanks Vat!
> 
> I'm feeling a little bit like a failure. Should I have been able to train my dog to ignore prey? (the answer I'm looking for is no  )
> 
> And I understand that you can wean a dog off the prong too right? Niko is pretty smart, he'd know if he had it on or not when Mr. Squirrel came bounding by. Wouldn't he just either chase or not chase depending on his collar at the time? Or is it an effective enough training tool that he would automatically associate prey with discomfort (hopefully not lots of pain) and thus not chase?


I almost never have the prong collar on my dog as the only collar. Sometimes when I'm walking I'll have the leash attached to just the flat and the prong just on. Then if they act up we can switch back. They eventually learn that it doesn't really matter what collar we have on....

Prong goes above the flat.









When they get older and I start to use the E-collar...E-collar goes above the prong which also goes above the flat/fursaver...


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## Good_Karma

Thanks JKlatsky for your informative replies. I hope the questions I am asking aren't really stupid. 

I know it's going to be really hard to talk DH into this.


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## gsd_lover

JKlatsky said:


> The prong collar is a training tool. If you rely on it forever, you're not using it as intended.
> 
> It's been my experience that a certain amount of correction needs to happen after the learning phase to proof the commands. Once they understand that their are rewards for listening and consequences for not listening...commands become much more reliable.
> 
> In the meantime though...don't ask the dog to obey if you can't enforce and reward it. All they learn then is that there's no point in listening.


That's exactly right, it is a training tool only. I would advise you to visit a professional trainer who uses them with gsd's training regularly to show you the proper use. Reading and watching video's is okay but having someone demonstrate it in person will save you a lot of precious time, effort, and patience.

I have always used a prong collar with terrific results, I have made sure the links are not loose and that it fits snugly without "digging in". If the links do become loose from putting it on and taking it off too many times buy another one. They're not that expensive.


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## Good_Karma

This is the closest trainer to me (that uses compulsion), about 20 minutes away. 
The Dog Guy

Anyone heard of him? I wasn't thrilled with the website, but he might be able to provide me with the basics. Opinions?

Also, how would you convince your SO to use a prong? I complained about it the night Niko dragged me down the hill and DH says "Ya gotta plant yer feet!" Then he laughed.

But he didn't laugh when Niko dragged him a few feet to say hi to a friend. At least DH didn't end up on the ground like I did.

Pretty sure he still wouldn't be up for it though.


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## Chris Wild

Good_Karma said:


> But the trainers I used said they DID see it happen where dogs neck was punctured by the prongs.


This won't happen with correct fitting and usage, but is part of why those are so important. If the collar is too loose, the prongs do not flex and pinch, they can poke. If the collar is attached to the wrong ring, or both rings, the collar cannot constrict as it should (the action of the collar is the same as a martingale collar) and that means the prongs do not flex and pinch and will poke.

If a strong dog hit the end of the lead with force on a collar that was not fitted correctly and not hooked to the lead correctly, so the collar couldn't function correctly, or it was a poorly constructed collar with sharp ends like many of the cheap ones, then this could possibly happen. If it is fitted and hooked up correctly, it won't.


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## Chris Wild

chicagojosh said:


> hey Chris,
> 
> what would you say the expected life is of one? as you know mine are the quick releasers. they've been great so far, have not come off or been gumming up. BUT, i'd like to pre-emptively get new ones before they break. a year or two? five? thanks


The ones I've seen 1-2 years, but it depends on how often it is used, if it's used in all sorts of weather, how dirty it gets, etc... Just make sure to check the snap often and make sure it is still moving freely and closing completely.


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## onyx'girl

One thing I really like to do is run two collars, a flat and a prong. I use a tab leash on the prong and a longer 4 or 6ft line on the flat. When I need to use the prong, I do so and my dog is not getting his or her neck constantly pressured by the prong collar. 
This works well for me when we do the neighborhood walks(my females tend to be reactive).


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## Baersmama

We have used pronged collars on all of our shepherds and have had good success. Never has a prong punctured the neck. As earlier posters said...it needs to be the right size. Some people think the big/wide prongs are best for big dogs. I would disagree. Someone mentioned the "quick release" could be a problem. This is the type we use, but it does add a weak point that you need to be mindful of. Also, the quick release sometimes gets caught in the leash clasp, and I will need to readjust it mid-walk. (This only seems to happen with my male.) The pronged collars help me to walk both my GSD effectively - at the same time. And, I find they rarely need to be tugged on too hard to get a response.


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## Stevenzachsmom

In her younger, wilder, dog reactive years, my girl wore a prong collar. My husband was walking her one day, when she spotted a beagle across the street. She wrapped the leash around my husbands' legs, pulled him down and dragged him up the street on his knees. She never felt a thing and no punctures. Oh - my husband was OK too. Wish I had pictures. Would have made a great youtube video. Ahh - Good times! Goooood times!


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## Rerun

Good_Karma said:


> I'm feeling a little bit like a failure. Should I have been able to train my dog to ignore prey? (the answer I'm looking for is no  )


For what it's worth, I wouldn't answer at all if the answer was "yes" so I'm not going to just say the following to make you feel better.

You aren't a failure. You have a german shepherd, which as you should know is a breed known for high prey drive. There are such varying levels of prey drive in the breed that you'll always have people tell you they can control their dog from the get go around loose squirrels (I say that tongue in cheek  ). The reality is that a young or adolescent german shep with high prey drive is likely to chase a squirrel when off lead, or attempt to chase when on lead. IMHO it's going to be awfully difficult to train your dog not to do this behavior without a much stronger correction, and a flat collar isn't working for you. Should your dog perhaps have a little better leash manners so as not to drag you down a hill regardless of collar? IMHO, yes. However, circumstances are different for all people, dogs, and training methods. Myself - I use corrections in training and do not support 100% positive training methods. They work for some people and some dogs, but by and large IME corrections achieve better results quicker for most dogs. Corrections are not abusive, they are simply corrections. The only reason I say your dog should have better leash manners by now is because I would have been correcting the dog long before it got to the point that the dog felt he could drag me. I understand many people feel they have given corrections, or redirections, but unless this is the 2nd or 3rd time the dog has attempted to bolt after prey while on a walk, it's too many times. I allow this to happen once with mine, and they get a correction. Each attempt after that to disobey by bolting after prey the correction is bumped up a notch until the dog understands the behavior they are exhibiting is not acceptable.

There are different training methods, you will simply have to choose what works for you. But ask yourself and your DH if what you're doing is working? It doesn't sound like it is, so perhaps it's time for a new method to be tried.


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## Zoeys mom

A prong is not a mean tool and like everyone here has said you don't have to give a huge yank to get them to stop an unwanted behavior. Zoe gets a leave it and if she doesn't a quick jerk of the leash- she always stops immediately and I treat the wanted behavior. She doesn't yelp and has never been injured by her prong- I couldn't have trained leave it in real situations without it


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## vat

I agree with Rerun, you are not a failure. You must try a different tool as your dog has learned that pulling has no consequence and you have no control. I had 2 dogs that did great with a pinch and my current Max not so much. What will it take for DH to realize? You at the ER and the dog missing?

To answer why I think choke's are not humane, they are impossible to fit correctly thus the dog does nothing but choke itself. Every GSD I tried it on did just that like they were wearing nothing. I also understand that some have caused damaged to the trachea. Maybe this tool worked for some, just not for me.

The best collar I have is one my trainer made for me out if small rope, go figure lol!


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## Stosh

Here's the thing- a dog can go out to the end of a choke collar and stay there, there's not a release from it. So they get used to being choked while on a leash and it's worth it to them. In fact, they're being taught, in my experience, that this is what it feels like to walk on a leash. The prong collar is a pinch and release, there's no continuous pressure. It takes some practice, you need to watch the dog's ears and reaction, but I have yet to see a dog that didn't respond. The first time they were on it, the trainer showed them what it felt like and there was a little yelp of surprise but now they know how far they can venture from my side before they get a reminder of the limit.


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## codmaster

Good_Karma said:


> I know virtually nothing about prongs and how to use or misuse one. I am beginning to think I have come to the end of my abilities as a trainer to teach my dog not to lunge for prey while we are on leash. Niko is about 15 months old. I outweigh him by about 15 lbs.
> 
> I really didn't want to go there with the prong. Not judging those who use one, but I've been convinced by trainers that they are inhumane. But I don't want to lose grip on the leash and lose my dog in the woods either.
> 
> I reached my limit today. With my leg still hurting from when he pulled me down a gravel slope on Saturday evening to chase a bunny, today he lunged for a deer that sprinted across the path in front of us. I had just gotten his calmed down and walking nicely again when we came upon a flock of turkeys trotting through the woods and up the path in front of us.
> I'm not ready to buy one yet. But the door has been opened in my mind. I need to know what it means to mis-use one. Can I trust myself to learn how to properly use it? What is the likelihood of me screwing up and hurting my dog?


Buy it and use it! You will be amazed at how much more control you will have over the dog.

AND the risk of hurting your dog is actually LESS than with the standard metal choke/slip collar.

Before I got one for our dog I tried both on my own arm and gave it a heck of a jerk - the prong was easier on my arm than the slip collar I had been using. One good thing about the prong is that it can only get so tight due to the two loops - the slip will continue to just get tighter - not good for the dogs throat.

One thing however -- make darn sure that you get and use a safty loop from the prong to a regular buckle collar that you have on the dog at the same time. prongs do have a chance to pop open at the least convienient times and you will need the security of the connector loop. I have had the prong come undone three times in a little over a year of using the prong.

Also make sure that the prong is fitted properly - up just under the ears and tight enough so you can squeeze a half of finger under the loops. Lierburg has a great tutorial on fitting a prong well worth viewing!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I think if you are more comfortable with a no pull type harness (and a coupler/collar) try that first. There is also a Volhard collar, that Leerburg calls the dominant dog collar. I've never used it as a choke. 

MOST of my dogs have a drop dead leave it command. As in, Bruno and Ilsa playing catch with a poor bunny in the back yard and I called out leave it and they did (and it escaped)! Still working on it with Senor Rocco. I use it a lot. 

I would be more than happy to meet you somewhere and work on leave its. One of my favorite fun things to train my dogs to do. 

Also for me, using a leather leash is a great help.


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## Stosh

I was so leary of a prong that the trainer put it on my arm so I could feel what it was like before I decided if it was right for my pups. My vet is a chiropractor and he can't even count the number of necks he's treated due to the choke to the right- much prefers the pinch which imitates the mother's mouth correcting her pups


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## BowWowMeow

Basu was the WORST puller I have ever had the pleasure (NOT!) of training. When we adopted him, at age 4.5, he pulled so hard I seriously thought I was going to need shoulder surgery. He was incredibly strong, had no leash training and was fear aggressive. What a fun combo! :help:

The very first thing I tried was a prong because that's what I had trained Chama with. It did nothing for Basu, even properly fitted. He did actually poke a hole in his neck at one point because he lunged after something on it. 

Next I tried a gentle leader. He quickly figured out how to set his head so that did pretty much nothing too. 

Then I read about the Sense-ation harness in the Whole Dog Journal. It had just come out. That was the only tool that worked for Basu. I attached his leash to both his flat collar and the ring on the harness and I actually was able to control him! It also was painless for him, if he did pull. 

I would strongly recommend trying that first, especially given your and your husband's feelings.


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## fgshepherd

I've used a slip type of collar on Rocky. When we first got him and started training him, he had had ZERO leash training. He pulled and pulled and I could not control him. After weeks of working him with the slip collar, he still pulled to mark, pulled to sniff, pulled at anything. I've since switched to a prong collar. I learned to fit it well on him. I thought at first it was too tight, but it isn't. He comes running when he hears it, he loves to wear it, and let me tell you, it is like POWER STEERING compared to the other collar. I he doesn't pull at all on it. It is really great. As soon as I can get him to settle down around other dogs, I'm going to ween him off of the prong and go back to a flat collar just because they're easier to take on and off! If you do try a prong, watch videos and do some reading about how to fit them. They go high up on the neck, if you make it too loose, it may be painful to the dog.


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## selzer

Good Karma, 

I just cannot picture that little angel muppet baby Rosa in a prong collar -- say it isn't so!!! 

No seriously, I use a prong collar. When my lot are really bad, I say "PRONG COLLAR!" in my deep unhappy voice. Everyone straightens up and flies right. (I also use the words APL and EUTHANASIA.)

I was afraid I would have to whip out a prong with Pain1 and Pain2 in class last week, but no, it was ok.


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## Good_Karma

Jean - Niko has a really good leave it for anything but running animals. He just goes deaf when he sees critters. What is it about the leather leash that you like?

Selzer - I'd never in a million years need a prong for Rosa! She's a good girl. A spaz on walks, but we're getting there. She's not a lunger like Niko. She'll see a squirrel but then pause, like she's not sure what to do. Gives me a chance to re- direct.

Thanks for everyone's replies. I have a lot to think about here. Maybe we will try the harness, too bad I can't just test drive one first for a couple weeks. It still seems to me like a dog could easily lunge after prey with a harness though????


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## PADR1NH0

vat said:


> How to fit a Prong Collar is a good site to learn how to fit. I was once afraid to use one but learned that a choke collar is so much worse and inhumane.
> 
> You need to get control before you get hurt and loose your dog, been there done that!


great link with good visuals - i have seen many that dont use the collar correctly...

many people dont know how to use these and think they are nothing more but torture devices - i have even gone into local pet stores where i purchased mine from and the rep there didnt even want to show me where they are because he thought they were so bad for the dog? 

umm.... and a chock collar is more humane? bahh to peoples ignorance if they only knew it takes far less for the dog to be corrected vs constant chocking.


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## BlackPuppy

The biggest misuse of prong collars I see at my dog training club is people who are too lazy to train the dog to walk properly, and put one on their 5 month old puppy. 

Even my neighbor is guilty of this. I walk her dog (wild Golden/Poodle mix) with a martigale (so I don't lose her), while my neighbor walks her with a prong collar. For some reason the dog behaves for me and not her. 

I haven't used a prong collar in years, but then, I don't have a GSD.


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## chicagojosh

doggiedad said:


> you had a choice. you could teach your dogs to
> heel on either and teach them to heel with or without a leash.


we have 2 dogs and both work full time jobs. taking each on a seperate walks is just not an option. we need to pay our bills and function as people...

as i mentioned we tried teaching them to heel. which they do fairly well...until a rabbit, other dog comes by. as someone else eluded to, better to get your dog under control than get hurt (in my girlfriends case) or let them get into a dog fight. sometimes life isn't so cut and dry dogdad


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## Taylor

I use a prong for Arwen. She gets excited on walks and is a puller. Always has been. With a prong, she walks nicely and is 100% well behaved with no corrections. Shes not aggressive or reactive. But I dont trust others and their dogs and I know i have control over my dog to keep her safe if the situation arises. Strider, not sure what we will do for him yet.


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## kiya

I use a prong on Lakota (8months old) when I take her out in the trails, I choose prong over choker. Her prey drive is incredible and she lunges after deer. After lunging once or twice with it on, she doesn't really do it anymore. Last week she sat and watched while 2 deer crossed the road in front of us at a very close distance. I also walk her with a regular flat collar loose lead in the neighborhood, she's fine. I started using a prong 20 years ago with my first GSD, it's a great tool and I have found when they have it on, they don't really need a correction from you.


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## Good_Karma

kiya said:


> I use a prong on Lakota (8months old) when I take her out in the trails, I choose prong over choker. Her prey drive is incredible and she lunges after deer. After lunging once or twice with it on, she doesn't really do it anymore. Last week she sat and watched while 2 deer crossed the road in front of us at a very close distance. I also walk her with a regular flat collar loose lead in the neighborhood, she's fine. I started using a prong 20 years ago with my first GSD, it's a great tool and I have found *when they have it on, they don't really need a correction from you*.


This is the part I like. I don't want to "leash pop" him. If he gets to the end of the leash (I walk him on a four foot leash) and the prong stops him, all good for me. I don't want to be the punisher.


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## G-burg

> This is the closest trainer to me (that uses compulsion), about 20 minutes away. The Dog Guy


Why not check the place out.. See if you can go sit in on some of there classes, get a feel for them.. 

That's what we do.. I always tell people that call to come and check us out before they sign up for the classes.. More-so with the folks that aren't sure or are skeptical.

There is a lot more to using a prong collar then just fitting it correctly.. And not every dog needs one.. (gee imagine that, me who loves the prong) Sometimes with the proper training/guidance from a knowledgeable trainer/person you can get away with using whatever collar you've got the dog on now..

It's surprising the amount of people that do misuse the collar.. Actually it's really sad to me.. 

I'm glad we are one of the training facilities that actually require a person to be taught first on it's use.. We also hand out a sheet on the dos and don'ts after we've explained the how to s and fitted the collar properly.


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## Good_Karma

G-burg said:


> Why not check the place out.. See if you can go sit in on some of there classes, get a feel for them..
> 
> That's what we do.. I always tell people that call to come and check us out before they sign up for the classes.. More-so with the folks that aren't sure or are skeptical.
> 
> There is a lot more to using a prong collar then just fitting it correctly.. And not every dog needs one.. (gee imagine that, me who loves the prong) Sometimes with the proper training/guidance from a knowledgeable trainer/person you can get away with using whatever collar you've got the dog on now..
> 
> It's surprising the amount of people that do misuse the collar.. Actually it's really sad to me..
> 
> I'm glad we are one of the training facilities that actually require a person to be taught first on it's use.. We also hand out a sheet on the dos and don'ts after we've explained the how to s and fitted the collar properly.


Okay, can I come to your class?  I agree, if I go that route I would like to know exactly what I am doing.

Does it sound like I need one in your opinion? I already started re-working with "Leave it". It might be a while before he's going to let a deer run by without going for it though.


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## G-burg

I can't say without seeing the whole picture.. What I will say is that the more obedience you can get on your dog the better you both will be in the long run!

I do know that critters are a tough one to train against if a person is just using positives. Not saying that you are... just the comment you made about not wanting to punish your dog.. You can't look at it that way.

Think of it this way.. How many times are you gonna touch a hot stove? With some bad behaviors you have to get a little tough (get your point across) to make it clear that it's absolutely not acceptable ever. Especially behaviors that are life or death.

I lost my dog to chasing deer 2 times.. Granted she did eventually come back.. Dirty, exhausted, cut up.. she could have been hit by a car, broken bones or had been completely lost and never came back..

The second time was all it took for me to change some things in our training.. But I up'd the ante on her.. And to this day she will not even think of going after a deer.


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## Liesje

I don't like using a prong (or any device, really) for self-correcting. The way I see it, if you're not comfortable correcting your dog, then don't use a corrective device for training. If you use such a device, then please for the sake of your dog, use it properly. If I have a large dog that is a puller and needs to learn some manners and self control, I'll use a prong but the whole point is to give ME control. Allowing the dog to constantly hit the end of the leash and get nagging corrections is pointless to me.


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## lisgje

Having used prongs for both my GSD's over the last ten years, have to say if used properly will never hurt a dog. If the prong size is correct and fitted properly should not be an issue. If it punctured a dogs neck, it was the wrong size and the owner may have pulled way too hard for correction. SHould only give a slight pinch to let the dog know he is pulling too hard. I have never had one break or fall apart or get gummed up. Once each of my dogs was using it, pulling was never again an issue.


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## klgraf

*IME Corrections?*



Rerun said:


> Myself - I use corrections in training and do not support 100% positive training methods. They work for some people and some dogs, but by and large IME corrections achieve better results quicker for most dogs. Corrections are not abusive, they are simply corrections.


What are IME corrections? 

I have an 11 mo old GSD female (from the shelter). We got her at age 5 mos and have been using a gentle (or not so?) leader. I've been transitioning her to heeling just on the collar. We are at in intermediate obidience classes, but when Lilly sees another dog she wants or prey, she is ready to go. I cannot control her with just a flat collar.

We met with a trainer today who uses prong and/or electrical stim (which didn't work well on Lilly, maybe because I had her rattlesnake avoidance trained w/ a stim collar?

I'm ready to try a prong...


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## selzer

Ok, I think I saw misuse of a prong tonight in class. But I am not sure what I think the woman should have done differently. The dog in question is about nine months old and probably 110 pounds of male rotteweiler. The woman was older, tall and large framed -- not fat, just large shoulders -- not like a body builder, just not like a small woman. 

Still the dog was having its way with her.

The prong was not doing the trick with him. She was sawing away on it. At one point the dog bolted barking and lunged at a spectator and made me nervous -- Pain1 and I were on the other side of the Rotty. 

The dog kept trying to eat the leash and she kept jerking hand hacking away at the collar. The dog was not really phased by it. At one point, she was across the room, the dog on a sit stay, and suddenly his eyes fixed on Pain1. I was making it a point NOT to stare into his eyes, but I quickly said, "this is a problem." His owner was oblivious, the trainer's husband switftly walked between my dog and this dog. 

I have never been so jumpy about a dog before. The lady had him on a down stay and was well away from him again and not noticing what he was about to do. I felt like we avoided mass destruction several times. 

Then the little German shorthaired pointer's owner recalled her dog with a long line, and it ran right into where the Rotty was, the trainer's husband went in to fish the dog out of there. The Rotty barked, and his owner yanked the prong all over the place again, but this time, I thought the lady with the GSP should have had her prong yanked a few times, as she would have been at fault in that mess, and the Rotty did not do anything terrible. 

This always makes me worry when people are mismatched with their dog's power as this lady seemed to be. And not only would she be unable to stop this dog if he did want to EAT someone, she is not keeping her eyes and mind on what her dog is thinking and doing. Scared the heck out of me. 

Attending lots of training classes is maybe like watching boxing or bull riding. There is the added thrill of what might happen next, Bull stamps on cowboy, boxer is KO'd, mad Rottweiler makes short work of German Shepherd Puppy.


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## Good_Karma

Selzer. your story is exactly why I needed a beer after every dog class we attended. I can't believe you do two classes in one night.

Maybe the Rottie was pain insensitive? I don't think that would be too big an issue with Niko. I have grabbed his scruff and hollered at him for lunging (lost my temper, know that probably wasn't effective) and he has yelped a bit because I must have tugged his hair. He seems to have a low pain tolerance.

So do you think that was the exception rather than the rule that a dog could be indifferent to the effects of a prong? Or did the woman build up his tolerance to pain by not using it properly?


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## G-burg

> Or did the woman build up his tolerance to pain by not using it properly?


That's a huge possibility.. Or is the lady not correcting effectively? Is it more nagging.. Is the collar on correctly? Is it even the right size collar?

What I don't get is why the instructors haven't stepped in?


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## ShenzisMom

I have a question. I put the collar on correctly-undo it and put it around the neck at the top so its under the chin yada yada yada-and it slips down! If I take out one more prong it wont fit around her neck-I've tried. Shes on 6 prongs right now not including the actual collar itself.
Maybe I need a smaller prongs? I just dont feel comfortable with the smaller prongs because it doesnt seem strong enough for a 60 pound bitch...


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## Rerun

selzer said:


> Ok, I think I saw misuse of a prong tonight in class. But I am not sure what I think the woman should have done differently. The dog in question is about nine months old and probably 110 pounds of male rotteweiler. The woman was older, tall and large framed -- not fat, just large shoulders -- not like a body builder, just not like a small woman.
> 
> Still the dog was having its way with her.
> 
> The prong was not doing the trick with him. She was sawing away on it. At one point the dog bolted barking and lunged at a spectator and made me nervous -- Pain1 and I were on the other side of the Rotty.
> 
> The dog kept trying to eat the leash and she kept jerking hand hacking away at the collar. The dog was not really phased by it. At one point, she was across the room, the dog on a sit stay, and suddenly his eyes fixed on Pain1. I was making it a point NOT to stare into his eyes, but I quickly said, "this is a problem." His owner was oblivious, the trainer's husband switftly walked between my dog and this dog.
> 
> I have never been so jumpy about a dog before. The lady had him on a down stay and was well away from him again and not noticing what he was about to do. I felt like we avoided mass destruction several times.
> 
> Then the little German shorthaired pointer's owner recalled her dog with a long line, and it ran right into where the Rotty was, the trainer's husband went in to fish the dog out of there. The Rotty barked, and his owner yanked the prong all over the place again, but this time, I thought the lady with the GSP should have had her prong yanked a few times, as she would have been at fault in that mess, and the Rotty did not do anything terrible.
> 
> This always makes me worry when people are mismatched with their dog's power as this lady seemed to be. And not only would she be unable to stop this dog if he did want to EAT someone, she is not keeping her eyes and mind on what her dog is thinking and doing. Scared the heck out of me.
> 
> Attending lots of training classes is maybe like watching boxing or bull riding. There is the added thrill of what might happen next, Bull stamps on cowboy, boxer is KO'd, mad Rottweiler makes short work of German Shepherd Puppy.


Why do the instructors allow this kind of behavior to occur? I've never seen good instructors allow this type of thing to occur repeatedly in cobedience classes. I have never once felt like my dogs were going to be attacked, or anyone elses for that matter. This sounds like a really chaotic and unenjoyable experience for all involved, dogs included. I have taken dogs in classes back to back previously and never felt stressed or like I needed a drink. Training, for the most part, should be a fun experience for both dogs and people. If the woman is having that much trouble controlling her dog in the class to the point that she would need constant help, the instructors need to tell her she needs to take private lessons with them for a period of time until she can control the dog safely in group classes.


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## Jax08

Deathmetal said:


> I have a question. I put the collar on correctly-undo it and put it around the neck at the top so its under the chin yada yada yada-and it slips down! If I take out one more prong it wont fit around her neck-I've tried. Shes on 6 prongs right now not including the actual collar itself.
> Maybe I need a smaller prongs? I just dont feel comfortable with the smaller prongs because it doesnt seem strong enough for a 60 pound bitch...



Try putting a 2-ply nylon collar on below the prong. Jax is a "half-size" too that that seems to help keep hers in place. I've found that a leather collar or any single ply collar tends to get tangled.


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## BowWowMeow

klgraf said:


> What are IME corrections?
> 
> I have an 11 mo old GSD female (from the shelter). We got her at age 5 mos and have been using a gentle (or not so?) leader. I've been transitioning her to heeling just on the collar. We are at in intermediate obidience classes, but when Lilly sees another dog she wants or prey, she is ready to go. I cannot control her with just a flat collar.
> 
> We met with a trainer today who uses prong and/or electrical stim (which didn't work well on Lilly, maybe because I had her rattlesnake avoidance trained w/ a stim collar?
> 
> I'm ready to try a prong...


Check out this front clip harness: SENSE-ation Dog Harness, Dog Training Equipment | Softouch Concepts, Inc.

It's worked better for me than a prong or a gentle leader. The nice thing about it is that it pulls the dog back around towards you which makes it easier to get their attention.


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## Rerun

re: IME corrections...


"IME" means "in my experience"


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## selzer

Rerun said:


> Why do the instructors allow this kind of behavior to occur? I've never seen good instructors allow this type of thing to occur repeatedly in cobedience classes. I have never once felt like my dogs were going to be attacked, or anyone elses for that matter. This sounds like a really chaotic and unenjoyable experience for all involved, dogs included. I have taken dogs in classes back to back previously and never felt stressed or like I needed a drink. Training, for the most part, should be a fun experience for both dogs and people. If the woman is having that much trouble controlling her dog in the class to the point that she would need constant help, the instructors need to tell her she needs to take private lessons with them for a period of time until she can control the dog safely in group classes.


Maybe it is our area. Usually our basic class, and our beyond the basics have people in them that are not dog-savy people, just pet owners who feel they are getting in too deep so the dog has to be trained. 

I think my trainer is doing her utmost to keep this dog from being shipped to a shelter situation. 

I do not think that it would be wise for this dog to wait weeks or months before being put back in a class with other dogs. He is already big and strong, but he will get bigger and stronger yet. I think dogs that have gone to group classes as puppies are a little easier to manage down the road.

Whenever I am in a class with pet people, I get a little nervous. They bring dogs to class anywhere up to two years old that have never been. They ask the dog questions rather than giving them a command, and often they are not paying close attention to body language. 

The trainers could tell these people they need private lessons or just turn them away. I don't know. I think that a good trainer takes what they are given and makes progress with them all. And just because this guy weighed 110 #s he is just a puppy. If you cannot manage a nine month old puppy, how will you handle him at two years?


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## JKlatsky

selzer said:


> Ok, I think I saw misuse of a prong tonight in class. But I am not sure what I think the woman should have done differently. The dog in question is about nine months old and probably 110 pounds of male rotteweiler. The woman was older, tall and large framed -- not fat, just large shoulders -- not like a body builder, just not like a small woman.
> 
> Still the dog was having its way with her.
> 
> The prong was not doing the trick with him. She was sawing away on it. At one point the dog bolted barking and lunged at a spectator and made me nervous -- Pain1 and I were on the other side of the Rotty.
> 
> The dog kept trying to eat the leash and she kept jerking hand hacking away at the collar. The dog was not really phased by it. At one point, she was across the room, the dog on a sit stay, and suddenly his eyes fixed on Pain1. I was making it a point NOT to stare into his eyes, but I quickly said, "this is a problem." His owner was oblivious, the trainer's husband switftly walked between my dog and this dog.
> 
> I have never been so jumpy about a dog before. The lady had him on a down stay and was well away from him again and not noticing what he was about to do. I felt like we avoided mass destruction several times.
> 
> Then the little German shorthaired pointer's owner recalled her dog with a long line, and it ran right into where the Rotty was, the trainer's husband went in to fish the dog out of there. The Rotty barked, and his owner yanked the prong all over the place again, but this time, I thought the lady with the GSP should have had her prong yanked a few times, as she would have been at fault in that mess, and the Rotty did not do anything terrible.
> 
> This always makes me worry when people are mismatched with their dog's power as this lady seemed to be. And not only would she be unable to stop this dog if he did want to EAT someone, she is not keeping her eyes and mind on what her dog is thinking and doing. Scared the heck out of me.
> 
> Attending lots of training classes is maybe like watching boxing or bull riding. There is the added thrill of what might happen next, Bull stamps on cowboy, boxer is KO'd, mad Rottweiler makes short work of German Shepherd Puppy.


Maybe it's just the ones I've been seeing lately...but the last couple of Rotties that I've seen are hard, SUPER dominant, and belong to women who they pretty much outweigh. I can't help but see disaster in the making....I wonder if it is a trend.


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## Ucdcrush

codmaster said:


> One thing however -- make darn sure that you get and use a safty loop from the prong to a regular buckle collar that you have on the dog at the same time. prongs do have a chance to pop open at the least convienient times and you will need the security of the connector loop. I have had the prong come undone three times in a little over a year of using the prong.


YES! Please anyone who uses a prong collar, heed that advice.

The easiest way I've made a safety loop is with a carabiner from home depot or walmart. Just put it on the flat collar and run it through the prong collar as well. Since the collars are right next to eachother, all you have to do is rotate the flat collar so that the ring is close to the ring of the prong collar and the carabiner will keep both together.

That way when the prong collar pops off, your leash will be connected to the flat collar via the carabiner.










--

Regarding the prey drive. As was stated above, it is not SUPPOSED to be easy to train a high drive dog to ignore squirrels deers etc. Do not compare your dog to other dogs that don't chase squirrels.. there are too many variables for it to be a "fair" comparison to any dog (or any owner, for that matter).

I have had very quick success using the following method, which I saw in a David Dikeman (based on Koehler) method. Put the dog on a long leash (2 6 ft leashes connected together will work) and a training collar. I happened to be using a regular choker slip collar.

Find some squirrels, a flock of geese, a row of ducks, etc. Grab the leash with both hands and walk towards the prey. Your dog will begin to fixate on the prey and when you get close enough, or when the prey moves away quickly, the dog will lunge. Now turn the other way, hold that leash against your chest firmly, and walk briskly in the other direction facing away from the dog. Your dog will suddenly hit the taught leash and be directed to follow you, knowing you're not looking at him so he'd better catch up to you. You want to use a long leash so there is time for him to know he's chasing prey and gets corrected for it.. on a 6 ft leash it would be as if you're simply dragging him away, there's hardly any "chase" time.

Do that a few times. You'll see the dog learn to control it's impulse to lunge and will want to know where you are when those prey items are present. I only had to do it twice to be able to approach geese and ducks with my dog.


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## Liesje

For backup I just attached the leash to a link on the dog's Fursaver as well as the live or dead ring on the prong. His Fursaver is loose enough where I can still use a prong to correct and not be choking him or even correcting him on the Fursaver, but if the prong broke off, the leash would still be attached to the Fursaver as backup.


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## Chicagocanine

Good_Karma said:


> This is the closest trainer to me (that uses compulsion), about 20 minutes away.
> The Dog Guy


Just curious, why do you want a trainer who uses compulsion?


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## Good_Karma

Ucdcrush said:


> Find some squirrels, a flock of geese, a row of ducks, etc. Grab the leash with both hands and walk towards the prey. Your dog will begin to fixate on the prey and when you get close enough, or when the prey moves away quickly, the dog will lunge. Now turn the other way, hold that leash against your chest firmly, and walk briskly in the other direction facing away from the dog. Your dog will suddenly hit the taught leash and be directed to follow you, knowing you're not looking at him so he'd better catch up to you. You want to use a long leash so there is time for him to know he's chasing prey and gets corrected for it.. on a 6 ft leash it would be as if you're simply dragging him away, there's hardly any "chase" time.
> 
> Do that a few times. You'll see the dog learn to control it's impulse to lunge and will want to know where you are when those prey items are present. I only had to do it twice to be able to approach geese and ducks with my dog.


Thank you! I will give this a try at the first opportunity. Friday we saw two deer in the road, that would have been perfect!


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## Good_Karma

Chicagocanine said:


> Just curious, why do you want a trainer who uses compulsion?


Any trainer I've employed has used positive reinforcement with no "punishment" other than removal of a thing a dog likes.

The last place we were at had banned any type of choke or prong collar. After a discussion of different collar types, the instructor asked if we wanted to see a prong. She pulls this rusty thing out a drawer with a dramatic flair, and was like "see what a torture device this thing is!!!"

I was under the impression that the only trainer who would teach the use of a prong would be one that used compulsion. Is that an incorrect assumption?


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## G-burg

> Just curious, why do you want a trainer who uses compulsion?


Why not use a trainer that might employ compulsion.. Is there something wrong with a trainer that does or a training facility? 

If you want a reliable dog.. You gotta use compulsion somewhere in the dogs training..


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## Rerun

All this talk of prong collars coming off..

I've been using them, different brands, on different dogs, for 18 years. I have never, ever, had one come off a dog and we use them daily.

Are people fitting these correctly and putting them on correctly? I'm having a hard time understand how they just "come undone." With ours, we have to give the prongs a pretty good pinch together to get them to slip inside the other one and hook, so how is it they are just coming off on their own? I could see if one was improperly fitted and perhaps very loose it could *maybe* come off, but even then I have to wonder. I know several people who use them far too loosly and in all these years, even those never came off.


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## Liesje

I've never had a prong come off during training/use. The only times mine has come off was if I leave it on the dog between turns. It's a genuine Herm Sprenger prong but the links are not very "tight" (ie, they are very easy for me to pinch and unhook). I've noticed that if the dog itches his neck just right, they come apart. To be honest I've always been disappointed with my HS prong for this reason. I have a different one from the pet store which is harder for me to unhook but has never, ever come apart and does not feel so "loose".


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## Washu

I saw a girl at Pet Supplies Plus who had a pit bull wearing a prong. I've never used one, but I could tell it wasn't on correctly. The dog was pulling, and lunging in all directions every time anyone walked by. She wasn't aggressive, just untrained, and excitable. If I didn't have my dogs with me I would have offered to help her to adjust it correctly. I'm no expert, but I think I could have helped improve the situation.


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## Cassidy's Mom

G-burg said:


> Why not use a trainer that *might* employ compulsion..


That's not always easy to find. Around here, it's VERY easy to find trainers that use motivational training methods with food and toy rewards and don't allow training collars of any kind. It's also easy to find pure compulsion trainers who think that food and toys are for wimps and that "your dog should work for you". Training collars are mandatory and the only "reward" is praise. Finding a trainer that teaches behaviors motivationally but knows how to use compulsion properly and when it's appropriate to introduce it? Much more difficult.


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## Good_Karma

Cassidy's Mom said:


> That's not always easy to find. Around here, it's VERY easy to find trainers that use motivational training methods with food and toy rewards and don't allow training collars of any kind. It's also easy to find pure compulsion trainers who think that food and toys are for wimps and that "your dog should work for you". Training collars are mandatory and the only "reward" is praise. Finding a trainer that teaches behaviors motivationally but knows how to use compulsion properly and when it's appropriate to introduce it? Much more difficult.


It's the same here. One extreme or the other.


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## pac liter

Good_Karma said:


> I'm not even close to linebacker material! But the trainers I used said they DID see it happen where dogs neck was punctured by the prongs. Maybe it was in a breed that is fairly insensitive to pain???


I had to stop using my sprenger prong on my lab. He puts his head down to start sniffing and pulls like a Mac truck. He ignores corrections and is H*ll bent on sniffing and pulling. Not a lot of aggression. Just excitement and a high pain tolerance. I noticed a couple small scabs a couple weeks back. Didn't seem to bother my lab too much but still felt bad. Had to switch to the fur saver choke.

No matter how hard I tried I couldn't keep the prong high on the neck. Even on a very snug fit, he would pull and after several minutes the prong would get pulled down to the lower neck. 

My other dog, the GSD uses the prong and it works miraculously for us. She has some aggression probs and high prey drive but a normal pain tolerence so the corrections, which are a mild flick of the wrist, work effectively.

Just putting it on makes a big difference for the GSD. 

My conclusion-Prongs are less effective for dogs with a high pain threshold.


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## Liesje

I would conclude that they are less effective if the dog is allowed to be constantly pulling into them. But that gets back to what I said earlier, that to me they are not a self-correcting device. You use a prong _because_ you are OK with giving corrections (not to avoid them). That means giving an appropriate correction (depending on the temperament, drive, and pain threshold of the dog) but not using it like you would a no-pull harness. The collar itself doesn't really do anything unless the dog is fairly soft, then I suppose it might work to self-correct but IMO not really how it's meant to be used.


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## Taylor

I saw a lady who was walking her dog with the prong collar on backwards. The prongs were pointing out. oh my goodness. She should realize that if she can walk her dog nicely (obviously without the prong) then she could just take it off ya know.


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