# Rough week for young GSD's - When they bite....



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

There's been some very sad posts about regressions in training/improper home placement here this week. That's not even including all the people who get GSD pups for Christmas and have no idea how to properly care from them....

I have a feeling that this is the tip of the iceberg, the one's we are hearing about - and the one's we don't.

Some of these young or newly adopted dogs - it's obvious as the posts reveal that the problem had been brewing for some time. Others, seem to be unexplainable or just a case of "too much dog" for the owner. I fear, the bottom line result is the same.

It's really upset me. Normally, I can convince myself that "these things happen" as with the other things that turn to tragedy, I don't know - probably just the holiday thing - but man, this week's really opened my eyes. I hear where in the bigger shelters are full of young GSD's. I understand now, just plan on not opening and reading anymore posts on "aggressive" or "bite" posts for a while - just really sad I don't understand how things can go so wrong.

Summer is my 5th GSD and I've never had the problems, but I've always realized what I have and used extreme caution. I don't push them when I'm getting angry or ever feel I need to force leadership which may come out as dominance. They get a look in their eyes, that they don't know, but training has stopped and you're about to put me into fight or flee mode.... Still, it's seems with some of the posts - there is no specific thing that caused the problem and little that can be done about it once it accelerates???.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I think a lot of the problem with dogs in general lies in the big push from many rescues, shelters and the media quoting them in it is all in how you raise and train them. 

Dogs are there genetics, whose qualities can be enhanced or suppressed, with raising, training, and socialization, but not changed. That is why specific dogs are used for specific venues. This is why so many dogs wash out of specific venues despite training and socialization. It is more than how you raise and train them, it is the dog. You can't get out what wasn't there to begin with.

People need to research more than size, energy levels, shedding, or price. They need to carefully UNDERSTAND and evaluate a breed's temperament before deciding whether a specific breed would be an asset to and compliment their lifestyles.


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## Liulfr (Nov 10, 2015)

I think you've hit the nail on the head, MAWL.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Many shelters this time of year are emptying them out with free adoptions. I am not a fan of that because they boast that they adopted out all their dogs/cats, yet I wonder how well they actually screened and matched the animals to the home. How many will end up back at the shelter or worse. 

I did get a puppy as a Christmas surprise 9 years ago. She was a lucky pup, because had she ended up with a clueless owner, she'd probably have been rehomed or dumped due to her nerves/aggression. I've owned dogs all my life, Onyx was the first to show reactive aggression and less than steller nerves. If I didn't step up my game, she would have been failed. 


This article is worthy. https://paws4udogs.wordpress.com/2012/12/10/its-all-in-how-theyre-raised/


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I'm right there with you Stone.It is depressing.Don't you feel like actually going to where some of these folks are and helping them sometimes?
I think you are right in that it's just too much dog for them sometimes.The cute fuzzy puppy begins to show his genetic predispositions and it's not what they envisioned.Having a hard time working with and understanding the dog in front of them?


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I think a lot of the problem with dogs in general lies in the big push from many rescues, shelters and the media quoting them in it is all in how you raise and train them.
> 
> Dogs are there genetics, whose qualities can be enhanced or suppressed, with raising, training, and socialization, but not changed. That is why specific dogs are used for specific venues. This is why so many dogs wash out of specific venues despite training and socialization. It is more than how you raise and train them, it is the dog. You can't get out what wasn't there to begin with.
> 
> People need to research more than size, energy levels, shedding, or price. They need to carefully UNDERSTAND and evaluate a breed's temperament before deciding whether a specific breed would be an asset to and compliment their lifestyles.


But, but, but! How realistically - to 90% or better of future GSD puppy owners (or young or adult GSD's) have any of the information to use for this? I mean - in the perfect world, there would be predictable breedings where temperament was predictable, but that's not real life.... better odds with a repeat breeding, but still not fool proof. With the rescues or adoptions - it's blind. 

If every potential owner were to adhere to requiring their "best chance' of getting even temperament - IMO repeat breeding only being the best bet.... that would leave 90% or better of all GSD's risky for an owner (temperament wise)


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> But, but, but! How realistically - to 90% or better of future GSD puppy owners (or young or adult GSD's) have any of the information to use for this? I mean - in the perfect world, there would be predictable breedings where temperament was predictable, but that's not real life.... better odds with a repeat breeding, but still not fool proof. With the rescues or adoptions - it's blind.
> 
> If every potential owner were to adhere to requiring their "best chance' of getting even temperament - IMO repeat breeding only being the best bet.... that would leave 90% or better of all GSD's risky for an owner (temperament wise)


The first step in research should be to read the breed standard. Few people don't have access to books, libraries, and the internet. In the case of the German Shepherd, regardless of what registry's standard you read, they all mention temperament.

I could not disagree more with your thoughts on predictable breedings when applied to reputable breeders. Yes, puppies can be a crap shoot, but when you know the pedigree and what they produce for generations back and you have the parents in front of you, reputable breeders can come across as close to miracle workers, but they are not. They just comprehend and utilize genetics and experience to produce dogs suitable for specific goals, which should be the breed standard and one of the many venues for our beloved jack of all trades. Of course, each litter will have variations in the expected temperament, a reputable breeder can only plan and make good decisions, but can't coerce mother nature to cooperate.

Rescues and adoptions aren't necessarily blind, as long as the assessors are experienced people with the breeds they are assessing. A shelter volunteer sticking a plastic hand in a shelter dog's food dish should not be utilized as a good indicator of a dog's specific behavior. Shelters need to stop presenting themselves as the dog / breed authorities that they do for no other purpose than to push dogs into homes and off of euthanasia lists.

German Shepherds are a breed fraught with bad nerves and aggression issues. Perhaps the remaining 90% you speak of would be better left not bred in the first place. A dog should be a joy and a pleasure to own, not a lifelong battle of unexpected bad behaviors and fixing.

There is an old saying goes if the standard calls for erect, pointy ears, expect them. If the standard calls for a stable temperament, expect it. If the standard calls for a dog to be aloof, or have the ability to be used in a guarding capacity, expect it. I am not saying that you can't get that in the 90% bred in puppy mills and backyards, but am saying if you want to greatly increases your chances of having a compatible dog with few problems, you need to buy from a reputable breeder. This forum probably would not exist if people chose their living, breathing companion and potential liability for the next twelve years with one tenth the effort they put in to buying a car they are planning on keeping for five but won't share their home or act on its own volition.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

Someone that I "know" had asked me last summer about choosing a GSD puppy. I suggested the forum as reference. I saw pictures on FB this week of a 5 week old pup already in their home. I hope of course that against the odds all goes well, but chances are not stacked in their favor. Any breeder that would let the pup go so early...


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

ksotto333 said:


> Someone that I "know" had asked me last summer about choosing a GSD puppy. I suggested the forum as reference. I saw pictures on FB this week of a 5 week old pup already in their home. I hope of course that against the odds all goes well, but chances are not stacked in their favor. Any breeder that would let the pup go so early...


A very good example..... I guess, my point is - buyers will be what they are and that won't stop. So where does the buck stop? When notice owners post here about mistakes and problems, they get told that the problem is at the other end of the leash - which is only partially true. Where is there any source of information for future GSD owners to even get an honest temperament report from a breeder.

Everyone must tiptoe around breeders - cannot mention except for in the vaguest terms to warn, such as "I would not choose that breeding" or "not the right temperament for my needs" when, I think if they were able - as they do with older gone by lines and breeders) say - "that male has passed on so much negative temperament traits, yet he was bred to produce thousands".....

This site, because of the same restrictions is no source for information for future GSD owners - IMO then, if this gag order is in place - the blame must be put to the breeders as much if not more than these well intentioned purchasers...... 

Breeders are playing a shell game under full protection IMO. How some can hold themselves to high above a BYB amazes me. As the results are here - health and temperament issues abound and nothing to show they are actually doing any better.....


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

ksotto333 said:


> Someone that I "know" had asked me last summer about choosing a GSD puppy. I suggested the forum as reference. I saw pictures on FB this week of a 5 week old pup already in their home. I hope of course that against the odds all goes well, but chances are not stacked in their favor. Any breeder that would let the pup go so early...


Yeah ..mostly we'll be seeing them here ...this time next year!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Robyn was a Christmas gift to me and Apollo was probably someone's Christmas gift that decided they didn't want him and dumped him out in the side of the road. I put alot of training and socialization in all my dogs, but the GSDs more so because I know what the temperaments can be, along with energy and drives. Midnite didn't deserve to be in a shelter but he found himself there. 

It's not only GSDs, it's all these pups. Once people figure out they are more work then they wanted or their 5 yr old isn't feeding them, to the shelter they go. Maybe it's to easy to get a dog and/or give it up. If shelters made it harder to drop dogs off, we would most likely see lots more on the street. It's human error and society all rolled up together. A very sad thing.

There are a lot more aggressive posts out there lately


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

And GSD are number two or three on the most popular dogs list! They did not get there by any input from me!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> A very good example..... I guess, my point is - buyers will be what they are and that won't stop. So where does the buck stop? When notice owners post here about mistakes and problems, they get told that the problem is at the other end of the leash - which is only partially true. Where is there any source of information for future GSD owners to even get an honest temperament report from a breeder.
> 
> Everyone must tiptoe around breeders - cannot mention except for in the vaguest terms to warn, such as "I would not choose that breeding" or "not the right temperament for my needs" when, I think if they were able - as they do with older gone by lines and breeders) say - "that male has passed on so much negative temperament traits, yet he was bred to produce thousands".....
> 
> ...


Although I don't believe this forum is as strongly a pet dog forum as some would believe, I think a large part of the problem on here comes from the mentality "don't say nothing bad about my shelter / Craig's List dog" minority and the way they are babied rather than addressing the problem. Yes, you want to help that dog / puppy, and you don't want to drive that person away, but you also should not present the situation as something that is acceptable either. This forum, and those who choose silence, are in elbow deep just as much as the backyard breeders, but I will admit on their behalf, many people on here have a low threshold tolerance to honesty if they would speak up.

From what I see, everybody tiptoes around those who did not purchase from a reputable breeder. I think you don't see enough "I wouldn't choose that breeding" or "not the right temperament for the needs" because the person that is purchasing the dog all too often really has no concept of what the standard / terminology really translates to in real life. It is more complex than that. Sometimes a male is bred to anything that is put in front of him, sometimes he produces poorly when bred to less than females, sometimes he produces outstanding pups when bred to quality females. Sometimes what some people call faults, others don't see it the same way. That is why you need to trust your breeder, and hopefully go see the dogs in action for yourself.

I will agree that when a prospective purchaser comes on here, many are quick to point out go see the dogs in actions. Wouldn't that be nice? In reality, very few have access to clubs or other venues to go watch dogs in actions, but as somebody said to me the other day, and I hope they don't mind me quoting them: "depends on where you live! I have seen a few GSD sailing by in cars and suv's ...". I think that sums it up for most people. I once saw where there was an estimated 5,000 people involved in GSD sports in this country, that out of an estimated @320,000,000 people per last census. The odds really aren't that good of finding like minded people in one's area.

I really have to question your concept of a reputable breeder. As somebody who switched to nothing but in the mid 80s due to excessively poor temperaments and health problems, I can unequivocally state that all of my dogs have been healthy, and only one has not had the temperament I expected, but she still is a very stable dog that could easily fit in any family without years of training, no leash necessary. She would have made a great sport dog with the right person. That was just not my intentions with her.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> And GSD are number two or three on the most popular dogs list! They did not get there by any input from me!


GSDs are number two on the list for what a properly bred GSD is supposed to be when reputably bred.

If you had read the breed standard, I don't suspect you would have been sandbagged.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> There's been some very sad posts about regressions in training/improper home placement here this week. That's not even including all the people who get GSD pups for Christmas and have no idea how to properly care from them....
> 
> I have a feeling that this is the tip of the iceberg, the one's we are hearing about - and the one's we don't.
> 
> ...


When I brought Shadow home I went through a pretty rough time. I wanted desperately to go back and get the rest. As she grew, I came to realize that her siblings that survived wouldn't live long. This temperament is crap. I love Shadow, and I will always do my best to do right by her, but in the end I had to settle for knowing that I saved HER. That has to be enough. One of the things that my years in rescue taught me was that I can't change the world, but I changed her world. 
Too many people get sucked in by that sweet puppy face. By the time reality sets in the situation is already screwed. I can sit here all day long and tell all of you how sweet Shadow is, how she is really just scared. The reality is, she bites. That's the bottom line. She isn't bluffing, and she's freaky quick. In most hands she would have been dumped, killed or fighting years ago. I respect what she is and manage what I can't change. I don't push her, I never bully her and I keep her safe from herself. She is what she is, poorly bred and volatile. 
Like my dog, people are what they are. We can coax, teach and comfort but in the end they will do what they will. Generally speaking people are alienated by words like don't and wrong. Some will always believe their way is right, some are easily manipulated by a savvy sales pitch, some just hate admitting they screwed up.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Sabis mom said:


> Too many people get sucked in by that sweet puppy face. By the time reality sets in the situation is already screwed. I can sit here all day long and tell all of you how sweet Shadow is, how she is really just scared. The reality is, she bites. That's the bottom line. She isn't bluffing, and she's freaky quick. In most hands she would have been dumped, killed or fighting years ago. I respect what she is and manage what I can't change. I don't push her, I never bully her and I keep her safe from herself. She is what she is, poorly bred and volatile.
> Like my dog, people are what they are. We can coax, teach and comfort but in the end they will do what they will. Generally speaking people are alienated by words like don't and wrong. Some will always believe their way is right, some are easily manipulated by a savvy sales pitch, some just hate admitting they screwed up.


I understand what you are saying, I'm just really frustrated in what I've read in the last 18 month here. It is pretty predictable here when a poster asks a problem about a young GSD or adoption - that there is some kind of break in communication. I think the more realistic approach with this breed, until it gets more stable, would be - no guarantees with health or temperament - unleast until the breeders establish a track record that shows evidence of improvement over previous years.....

I really,am in total support of breeders who are trying to eliminate the physical and mental (temperament) problems in this breed. I just can't find one instance where a breeding program is consistent enough to say "these 30 or 100 or whatever breeders have proven their line"

Further complications for me - , it's really hard to read time after time about well bred dogs here - suffering every disease and every allergy and every temperament problem known to the breed...... When, my personal experience - blessed me with 5 GSD's thru my life that lived to be at least 13.5, happy and healthy and every one of them were from what is considered BYB's.????

The more I read here - the more I'm convinced that the breeders are either A. totally bull****ting about their efforts or, B. overcome by competition & unsure facts on bloodlines (because they're getting lied to) or C; just blowing hype - like all who are in it for the money do......

Just lucky with my GSD's? - I guess......


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> GSDs are number two on the list for what a properly bred GSD is supposed to be when reputably bred.
> 
> If you had read the breed standard, I don't suspect you would have been sandbagged.












Hey ... I got schooled! I'm good with that! The school of hard knocks, works out well for some of us!

The SUV GSD was a Blk and Tan ... for the record.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Sabis mom said:


> When I brought Shadow home I went through a pretty rough time. I wanted desperately to go back and get the rest. As she grew, I came to realize that her siblings that survived wouldn't live long. This temperament is crap. I love Shadow, and I will always do my best to do right by her, but in the end I had to settle for knowing that I saved HER. That has to be enough. One of the things that my years in rescue taught me was that I can't change the world, but I changed her world.
> Too many people get sucked in by that sweet puppy face. By the time reality sets in the situation is already screwed. I can sit here all day long and tell all of you how sweet Shadow is, how she is really just scared. The reality is, she bites. That's the bottom line. She isn't bluffing, and she's freaky quick. In most hands she would have been dumped, killed or fighting years ago. I respect what she is and manage what I can't change. I don't push her, I never bully her and I keep her safe from herself. She is what she is, poorly bred and volatile.
> Like my dog, people are what they are. We can coax, teach and comfort but in the end they will do what they will. Generally speaking people are alienated by words like don't and wrong. Some will always believe their way is right, some are easily manipulated by a savvy sales pitch, some just hate admitting they screwed up.


 Well I'll say thank you for saving her! 

The only reason I am here is "because" I was a foster, that was my role. GSD's were never on my radar?? Hence the lack of "research" and the stitches! 

I went from having dogs that when if someone asked if they could pet them, it was "geez please do!!!" To full step in front of my dog and saying "NO!"

It was quite a reset but we "got'er done" and despite the battle and the hard time we're good!

So a lot of us understand where you are coming from and doing the right thing by "this" dog despite the fact that is it a "problem" dog.

People like us are kinda the problem also ...life is like that.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I see a direct correlation between the rise of positive only training and the rise in aggressive dogs. We have to start understanding dog behavior and not looking at them as children. They are dogs, they don't reasos and they can't think things through. 

I have a working line puppy who is adorable, but I can't sit and baby him all day or he would already be walking all over me. I started training him the first week we got him. We began socializing him at home right away. He's not even 4 months old yet, and is already exhibiting independent behavior. I love my dog and I'm tough with him when I need to be, puppy or not. 

It seems from reading this board and talking to people in real life that people mix up positive training with being a pushover. Dogs will push us as much as they can unless we push back. They don't know any better. They do what is natural for them. My best socialized dogs were the one I owned when I was the busiest and the dogs had to wait their turn for attention. They were well trained but they were ignored during the regular day, unless it was my idea. I still do that and it works out well. I spend a lot of time training my dogs, and walking them when they are old enough, but on my schedule.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> I understand what you are saying, I'm just really frustrated in what I've read in the last 18 month here. It is pretty predictable here when a poster asks a problem about a young GSD or adoption - that there is some kind of break in communication. I think the more realistic approach with this breed, until it gets more stable, would be - no guarantees with health or temperament - unleast until the breeders establish a track record that shows evidence of improvement over previous years.....


I am seeing a huge disconnect here where you are speaking about adopting dogs while blaming reputable breeders for the problems. The dogs I know, and the people on here I see posting, that have been purchased from reputable breeders are not the ones as a rule posting about health and temperament problems. In fact, from my own experience and what I see posted on here, it is just the opposite. 



Stonevintage said:


> I really,am in total support of breeders who are trying to eliminate the physical and mental (temperament) problems in this breed. I just can't find one instance where a breeding program is consistent enough to say "these 30 or 100 or whatever breeders have proven their line"


I can easily point out 30 - 100 breeders that have proven lines over many years. It is a veritable smorgasbord out there with many fine breeders, and yes, some do post on this forum.



Stonevintage said:


> Further complications for me - , it's really hard to read time after time about well bred dogs here - suffering every disease and every allergy and every temperament problem known to the breed...... When, my personal experience - blessed me with 5 GSD's thru my life that lived to be at least 13.5, happy and healthy and every one of them were from what is considered BYB's.????


I think the problem is that you consider some of these dogs you are reading about as well bred when they are not. There will always be some dogs in well bred lines with some health problems, NOTHING is perfect. And you will always see health problems in poorly bred lines where health is not a consideration. I can't help but suspect you are giving people the benefit of the doubt by assuming their dogs are well bred when that is not the reality but the claim.




Stonevintage said:


> The more I read here - the more I'm convinced that the breeders are either A. totally bull****ting about their efforts or, B. overcome by competition & unsure facts on bloodlines (because they're getting lied to) or C; just blowing hype - like all who are in it for the money do......
> 
> Just lucky with my GSD's? - I guess......


I just don't see this at all. Can you document where you have seen reputable breeders being deceitful? Or where they don't know their bloodlines? Or where they are making significant money?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Hey ... I got schooled! I'm good with that! The school of hard knocks, works out well for some of us!
> 
> The SUV GSD was a Blk and Tan ... for the record.


LOL! I got my a major and a minor in the school of hard knocks!


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I am seeing a huge disconnect here where you are speaking about adopting dogs while blaming reputable breeders for the problems. The dogs I know, and the people on here I see posting, that have been purchased from reputable breeders are not the ones as a rule posting about health and temperament problems. In fact, from my own experience and what I see posted on here, it is just the opposite.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



All this could be answered very simply.... I have suspicions , you are certain... so you show the numbers that prove that these instances are eliminated or greatly reduced among any group of breeders through time - as opposed to any other (less conscientious) breeders..... I find nothing other than "trust me" on this - no numbers - where are your numbers?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> I understand what you are saying, I'm just really frustrated in what I've read in the last 18 month here. It is pretty predictable here when a poster asks a problem about a young GSD or adoption - that there is some kind of break in communication. I think the more realistic approach with this breed, until it gets more stable, would be - no guarantees with health or temperament - unleast until the breeders establish a track record that shows evidence of improvement over previous years.....
> 
> I really,am in total support of breeders who are trying to eliminate the physical and mental (temperament) problems in this breed. I just can't find one instance where a breeding program is consistent enough to say "these 30 or 100 or whatever breeders have proven their line"
> 
> ...


I'm in the Pet People camp also and yes "Temperament" is key in all things GSD!

But BYB are a problem, if you had five GSD form BYB and they all lived for 13.5 years?? You're doing pretty good! Most likely as most know I'm a Boxer guy also! (yes ...what else is new!) 

But my point is if you were into Boxers I highly doubt you would have had 5 dogs living to 13.5 years?? We have one on the forum now that is freaking 14!!! Everyone is stunned! Dogs dropping over in the 3 to 5 year range not uncommon!

And then if they make it to 8 yrs ... DM can strike??? Although ... actually to your point there was a real "Breeder" pup that dropped adead t 6 months with heart failure?? But to be fair it was a "BLK" Boxer and there are none .. so yeah, maybe not the best example there.  

But anyway the latest "biting the crap out of everyone GSD" does not appear to be a BYB GSD! Sometimes people do get the dog they ask for and it proves to be much dog for "that" owner! 

Sometimes people get the dog they want but not the dog they need!
*

Hey ... I think I saved this rambling post, oops did I type that??*


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Has there ever been a poll on here for temperament issues with dogs from a breeder versus other? I believe there was one for health and that was pretty split--just as many issues health wise both ways. 

Stone--as far as luck? I have three in my house that I have no clue where they come from and they are solid, stable dogs with great temperaments. I really couldn't ask for better dogs, so if it is luck, I'm right there with you!

I was slightly nervous today with Apollo, I had 20 people over for the holidays. He really hasn't seen them often(since last Christmas, maybe twice) and does not know them like the other dogs. He was perfect, played with the kids and enjoyed all the festivities. I was very relieved and proud of him. We even had two people who never been here before over without any issue. It's nice not to have to crate a dog because they aren't acting right or might bite. I understand that some dogs don't handle lots of hustle and bustle well, but I'm grateful that mine love being around family and show no stress whatsoever. Even Robyn who is recovering from surgery wanted to be by everyone--she is a trooper 

I think I do have a hard time understanding how all these people have all these issues when I read some of the posts. I wonder if they are misunderstanding the dog? They don't know how to burn that energy? Are they expecting to much to soon? The list goes on and on.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> All this could be answered very simply.... I have suspicions , you are certain... so you show the numbers that prove that these instances are eliminated or greatly reduced among any group of breeders through time - as opposed to any other (less conscientious) breeders..... I find nothing other than "trust me" on this - no numbers - where are your numbers?


Aww you guys/girls and your numbers! We got "paws" on the ground here and people need solutions!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Chip18 said:


> Aww you guys/girls and your numbers! We got "paws" on the ground here and people need solutions!


I think people think this breed is smart and they learn on their own. I don't think they consider the energy or drive level. I guess I really just think that some people just don't think


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

llombardo said:


> Has there ever been a poll on here for temperament issues with dogs from a breeder versus other? I believe there was one for health and that was pretty split--just as many issues health wise both ways.
> 
> Stone--as far as luck? I have three in my house that I have no clue where they come from and they are solid, stable dogs with great temperaments. I really couldn't ask for better dogs, so if it is luck, I'm right there with you!
> 
> ...


I have seen GSD's like that at a wedding party! I was impressed! 

I don't have one ... my Boxer made the men giggle and the women want to leave! I think they were all "envious" of her slender figure myself.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> LOL! I got my a major and a minor in the school of hard knocks!


Ok then I never heard the "bad" times.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> All this could be answered very simply.... I have suspicions , you are certain... so you show the numbers that prove that these instances are eliminated or greatly reduced among any group of breeders through time - as opposed to any other (less conscientious) breeders..... I find nothing other than "trust me" on this - no numbers - where are your numbers?


How about five GSDs right now from five different breedings, three different breeders, no health or temperament problems except one dog with flea allergies and another that is suitable for IPO and an excellent family companion, just not suitable for heavy duty PPD? How about the last 11-12 dogs from reputable breeders, no health problems, no temperament problems? Those are pretty good stats and I am just one person. Would I use these breeders again, yep, each and every one. When people come on here and post about looking for breeders in their areas, do I publicly post, nope, but I do send them a PM recommending these breeders. I can't say that I have checked out every breeder on this forum, but those that I have, I would highly recommend them and their programs as well. I know that people have dogs from these programs posting on this forum, look at the signatures. I certainly have not read every thread on here, but I can say I have never seen anyone of those people posting problems with their dogs. Does that mean that none of them have problems? No, it means they bought from a reputable breeder who doesn't BS and will get their buyer and their program's progeny moving in the right direction. 

How about all the dogs you see posted on here in these problem dog threads? Where did they get those dogs... oh yes, 90% from some backyard breeder. I can only speak for myself, but I do pay very close scrutiny to where people get their dogs, who knows, maybe I will check their breeders out next time, if they are reputable.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

llombardo said:


> I think people think this breed is smart and they learn on their own. I don't think they consider the energy or drive level. I guess I really just think that some people just don't think


Uh yeah! I never considered that being smart could lead to problems???

I did see that with Rocky all my dogs respect the front door, they wait till I release them. THe back door I open and "boom" out they go, fenced yard no biggie never gave it second thought. Rocky one of the first things I noticed when I first got him.

He does not see a door, he see's a "threshold??" I remember opening the door to let him out in the backyard and he stands there waiting, What The Heck??? I look at him confused?? I stare at him and say ... OK??? And out he goes! Front or Back a threshold is a threshold!! 

I would have thought being "smart" was a good thing?? But maybe "that" enables them to quickly figure out who is a "tool??" Rocky did manage to find every issue I had no experience in ... pack fights and Human aggression. I was Zero (pack fights) and One (HA I got solved) there. 

I guess if you know close to nothing to start with about dogs, yeah most likely there will be "issues."


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> I'm in the Pet People camp also and yes "Temperament" is key in all things GSD!/QUOTE]
> 
> Yes, Chip - I agree that there is much confusion on this. Nobody has proof one way or the other. I think the thing that got me started today is I was reading about a giant horse 19hh, a Percheron named "Moose" that was a recent winner of many shows, young with a very promising future.... In truth he had dropped dead of colic complications (which colic is not a diagnosis - just means digestive disorder or pain/inflammation) by the time most of the stunning reviews were given by that breed industry. Something was wrong and the breeders are not sharing a word with others who are their competitors..... they have other's and they are in the breeding business....
> 
> ...


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> Chip18 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm in the Pet People camp also and yes "Temperament" is key in all things GSD!/QUOTE]
> ...


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Stonevintage said:
> 
> 
> > I think you would be hard pressed to find many reputable kennels that make their living off of breeding dogs and only that.
> ...


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## Apexk9 (Sep 13, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I think a lot of the problem with dogs in general lies in the big push from many rescues, shelters and the media quoting them in it is all in how you raise and train them.
> 
> Dogs are there genetics, whose qualities can be enhanced or suppressed, with raising, training, and socialization, but not changed. That is why specific dogs are used for specific venues. This is why so many dogs wash out of specific venues despite training and socialization. It is more than how you raise and train them, it is the dog. You can't get out what wasn't there to begin with.
> 
> People need to research more than size, energy levels, shedding, or price. They need to carefully UNDERSTAND and evaluate a breed's temperament before deciding whether a specific breed would be an asset to and compliment their lifestyles.


I just think its too much affection not enough structure.

You know they bring the dog and they shower him with affection and love because they feel like he needs it from where he has been now this dog is also not himself because he is in a new area so hes assessing the situation.

Then their real personality comes out but they also have been through some **** because they ended up in a shelter so they already have psychological trauma.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Apexk9 said:


> I just think its too much affection not enough structure.
> 
> You know they bring the dog and they shower him with affection and love because they feel like he needs it from where he has been now this dog is also not himself because he is in a new area so hes assessing the situation.
> 
> Then their real personality comes out but they also have been through some **** because they ended up in a shelter so they already have psychological trauma.


 I guess I was thinking more of a blanket effect where people are misled by shelter workers who just simply aren't qualified to make that judgement. You can't read a dog attack, mauling or fatality article without some shelter worker or volunteer being quoted it is not the dog but how it was raised and trained. I think the attitude and misconception is very pervasive in society today.

But I do agree that many people are too soft on some breeds that need more structure and leadership.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

It would be nice to stick to the GSD breed. I don't think that attacks, maulings and fatalities by GSD's are the topic. I don't think this is a thread about how GSD's attack, maul and kill.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Apexk9 said:


> I just think its too much affection not enough structure.
> 
> You know they bring the dog and they shower him with affection and love because they feel like he needs it from where he has been now this dog is also not himself because he is in a new area so hes assessing the situation.
> 
> Then their real personality comes out but they also have been through some **** because they ended up in a shelter so they already have psychological trauma.


And what about for the people who had the dog since it was 8 weeks old? Same household it's whole life and then between a year old and two the dog turns into a ticking bomb?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> It would be nice to stick to the GSD breed. I don't think that attacks, maulings and fatalities by GSD's are the topic. I don't think this is a thread about how GSD's attack, maul and kill.


 I agree with GSDs not being in the thick of things for maulings and fatalities but I have seen where the pervasive misconceptions are being uttered by millions: "It is all in how you raise and train them", and unfortunately, it is being applied to all breeds.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

llombardo said:


> And what about for the people who had the dog since it was 8 weeks old? Same household it's whole life and then between a year old and two the dog turns into a ticking bomb?


Yea, that's what the original part of my post was about. Like a house of cards - one comes out and suddenly between 18-24 mos worse than just another training regression. My dog is just entering that age and I have been enjoying how shes turning out. For me to think, that can all be gone in the next couple of months just horrifies me. 

But on the other hand, I don't get it. This is my 5th GSD and I've never had that kind of problem, nor has anybody I know in this town with GSD's..... just trying to figure out why others do - something's different. Is it the 12 hour crating, lack of exercise or interaction? I don't know what's changed if it's not still negligent breeding and there's a temperament problem .


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I agree with GSDs not being in the thick of things for maulings and fatalities but I have seen where the pervasive misconceptions are being uttered by millions: "It is all in how you raise and train them", and unfortunately, it is being applied to all breeds.


OK - I'll put it more plainly - let's keep Pit Bulls out of this thread.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> Yea, that's what the original part of my post was about. Like a house of cards - one comes out and suddenly between 18-24 mos worse than just another training regression. My dog is just entering that age and I have been enjoying how shes turning out. For me to think, that can all be gone in the next couple of months just horrifies me.
> 
> But on the other hand, I don't get it. This is my 5th GSD and I've never had that kind of problem, nor has anybody I know in this town with GSD's..... just trying to figure out why others do - something's different. Is it the 12 hour crating, lack of exercise or interaction? I don't know what's changed if it's not still negligent breeding and there's a temperament problem .


Maybe never being allowed to be just a dog, never being off leash to run as nature intended for their bodies, maybe too much structure, maybe a life quiet of desperation.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> OK - I'll put it more plainly - let's keep Pit Bulls out of this thread.


 Not trying to bring Pit Bulls into this thread. What I am saying that the perceptions and misconceptions are being applied to all breeds of dogs. There was a day when you did not see GSDs frolicking with newborn babies, or any other breed, plain old common sense, but other breed owners have something to prove and now the internet is infested with pictures of all breeds with newborn children.


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## Apexk9 (Sep 13, 2015)

llombardo said:


> And what about for the people who had the dog since it was 8 weeks old? Same household it's whole life and then between a year old and two the dog turns into a ticking bomb?


Well I'm gonna do a hypothetical situation.

If the Dog is nervous and a person is overly affectionate the dog will be reinforced on his nerves. A nervous dog is usually fearful and a fearful dog can be aggressive.

Im sure there is an exception to every rule but I think people are overly affectionate as a result they condition a bunch of bad behaviors when the dog is a puppy and super cute so he can get away with murder. Then when the dog is older they try to fix it but if they are inexperienced and the dog is "hard" its not gonna wanna take that **** when hes becoming a adult.

So they get frustrated and angry and you know how humans can act in those moments and that dog wont take it. They also probably cant read subtle body language if its their first pup and they cross a boundary and chomp.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Stonevintage said:
> 
> 
> > I think you would be hard pressed to find many reputable kennels that make their living off of breeding dogs and only that.
> ...


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Apexk9 said:


> I just think its too much affection not enough structure.
> 
> You know they bring the dog and they shower him with affection and love because they feel like he needs it from where he has been now this dog is also not himself because he is in a new area so hes assessing the situation.
> 
> Then their real personality comes out but they also have been through some **** because they ended up in a shelter so they already have psychological trauma.


By and large your pretty much on point but as has been noted its not just rescues!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

There are 5-10 breeders on here that come recommended. When people post a breeder they might want to use, it's shot down and people say pass on the puppy. So where are people suppose to go? There is what most would consider a good breeder, produces great dogs, but is higher priced with multiple litters that had puppies ready by Christmas--I won't ever look at that breeder again. 

Pups are being mismatched by breeders(not any that I've seen recommended)and rescues and it never ends well. People can not read GSDs at all. Everything the GSD does is aggressive, when in fact most of the time it's not. Mouthing=Nipping/Aggression. Leash Reactivity=Aggression. Hackles Up=Aggression. Herding=Aggression. Everything the breed does equals aggression? Then you have fearful dogs, which is another thing lots of people jump to. Maybe it's not fear, but the true guarding instinct these dogs have? Two different things and most likely should be handled differently, but it's not and by the time they realize it, the issue is beyond their control. I'm sure there are some out there that have issues, but I highly doubt it's as many that are here on a daily basis. Everything the breed is wanted for and supposed to be is being dismissed. They are loyal, family dogs that have a guarding instinct. 

The most important thing for me is that they(any dog really) has to be 150% great with kids. That is non negotiable. I spend hours watching them play with the kids. It's the most beautiful sight. They don't knock them down, nip at them, jump at them. They roll on the ground, play catch and swim. they are super careful with the smaller ones. At night they sleep with them and keep watch. They are exactly what they are suppose to be. 

i will eventually get a dog from a breeder one day, it just so happens that every time I talk to her another GSD comes along--this has happened twice and we laugh about it, but she understands. I'm confident I will get what I'm looking for from her, but I also know I can walk into a shelter with 10 GSDs and pick the one that will fit in and either be what I'm looking for or what I can work with to make that way.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Maybe never being allowed to be just a dog, never being off leash to run as nature intended for their bodies, maybe too much structure, maybe a life quiet of desperation.


I think if you zoom out and look at the typical lifestyle paradigm, you'll see some more patterns that may answer your question. On a BIG scale.

We live in a culture where it's "normal" to go out and buy what you want, on a whim, or because you _think_ you want it. Because you think something is beautiful, popular, a status symbol. People buy Hummers to go grocery shopping and pick up the kids from school. They buy full size F150 trucks, drive to the golf course every weekend, and never put a single scratch on the hitch because they own it for years and it never touches a trailer. Many of our kitchens are outfitted with restaurant quality gadgets and stainless appliances, and yet the family rarely cooks at home. People own expensive technical mountaineering brands of outdoor clothing, and they wear their $400 Marmot or Arc'teryx vest to the mall to go shopping. They have never, and will never, climb a mountain, yet they want to own gear worthy of K2.

The examples go on and on. Is it surprising, then, that these same people go out and buy a dog that is worthy of the police - the military - the dedicated rancher? A large, imposing, beautiful dog that is the subject of admiration and a little bit of fear? I think not. 

But unlike the shiney 4x4 truck that never drives off road, unlike the Japanese sushi knives that occasionally slice apples but usually just look nice on the counter, the German Shepherd is *not* content simply being a silent trophy. The people I've encountered in my personal life, frustrated or having problems with their GSD, often fit what I described above. That is my experience and why I've formed this opinion.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

WIBP...beat me to it. 

A lot of it is cultural.

I'd add to it that it's somewhat unique to the US and the contrarian streak for the sake of being contrary.

It's a severely imperfect market where conformity is rejected even amongst breeders that show and compete.

The AKC doesn't even enforce physical breeding standards on breeders, let alone work or temperament, so even 'old fashioned large straight back' dogs can register and breed. 

Mythology (pushed by certain breeders and online) such as "WLs never get HD" (and many more) lead people astray.

The different training fads from 'alpha leader' to Positive Only actually disempower a lot of people and they can't break free from the one-size-fits-all training mindsets.

In the U.S. we tend to set people up to fail and then blame them, that's one part of it. We have a lack of conformity, no organization in the US (outside maybe the SV for GSDs and some other breed clubs) enforcing at least some minimum breed standards for breeding, an unwillingness to learn and let go of what is mythology vs reality (attitude), combined with human nature.

I fell into some of these pitfalls myself. It's been a long journey to get where I've gotten today and I realize that it's an ongoing journey too.

All one person can do is try to help others along the way. Educate those willing to learn and accept those that don't want to learn can't be helped.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

btw. SV, as I recall based on your posts here you too have made some missteps and had some go 'rounds here too.

The difference, *in general*, is how willing a person is to learn from their mistakes. 

One more thought, let's also remember a lot of times people come and post here when they are in need of help or are in trouble. There are a lot of people with only 4 or 5 posts who then leave.

I don't post a lot about how things are going pretty well with my dogs, come to think of it. They're all good for the most part.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Maybe never being allowed to be just a dog, never being off leash to run as nature intended for their bodies, maybe too much structure, maybe a life quiet of desperation.


Its an important part of the structure, letting them know when it ok to just be a dog. That was some of the best advice I was ever given. I always talk about routine and structure, but maybe it doesn't get mentioned enough. Work, training, whatever, has a beginning and an end. Then its down time.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

WIBackpacker - I see that too. That's what I meant about some people acting like 10 year olds with a toy that does not work the way they expected or wanted it to. Cast it aside and go on to the next. But I like your comparison better. 

American consumerism and expectations. Funny stuff with goods and services. Sad with a GSD pup. 

I sell online for a bit of supplemental income and I depend on buyers wants. Some buy because the items flashy or in style, some look for quality and usefulness - those in the first group are likely to cancel or have "buyers remorse" those who shop for quality and usefulness are more likely to be very pleased with their choice.....


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

WIBackpacker said:


> I think if you zoom out and look at the typical lifestyle paradigm, you'll see some more patterns that may answer your question. On a BIG scale.
> 
> We live in a culture where it's "normal" to go out and buy what you want, on a whim, or because you _think_ you want it. Because you think something is beautiful, popular, a status symbol. People buy Hummers to go grocery shopping and pick up the kids from school. They buy full size F150 trucks, drive to the golf course every weekend, and never put a single scratch on the hitch because they own it for years and it never touches a trailer. Many of our kitchens are outfitted with restaurant quality gadgets and stainless appliances, and yet the family rarely cooks at home. People own expensive technical mountaineering brands of outdoor clothing, and they wear their $400 Marmot or Arc'teryx vest to the mall to go shopping. They have never, and will never, climb a mountain, yet they want to own gear worthy of K2.
> 
> ...


I think you've hit the nail on the head. I think this starts with how many children are being raised. The teachers and coaches are wrong, never the student or athlete. Teams are all participants not winners and losers. This has spread to treating dog/pets like little people. They aren't and shouldn't be treated that way. Are my dogs indulged? Yes, if you consider that they sleep in the house, travel with us often, are well fed, and loved. They don't receive Christmas/birthday presents. They have to mind their manners, but in return they travel with us often.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

IMO going far afield with the no winners or losers, which I think is more myth then reality. Proper training includes building confidence in young dogs (letting them think they will be winners) same with kids. That's a new meme with a political agenda. If anything I think over all we're harder on each other and kids these days in our hyper competitive environment. (see mom's and dad's fighting at soccer/b-ball/f-ball) Kids pushed onto the field after they've had a concussion....

The pets are people too deal is mostly a contrivance of big box pet suppliers and some trainers too for profit. They increase sales by anthropomorphizing animals. 

P.S. my dogs got to open their Christmas presents 'cause they were good dogs this year. :dancingtree:




ksotto333 said:


> I think you've hit the nail on the head. I think this starts with how many children are being raised. The teachers and coaches are wrong, never the student or athlete. Teams are all participants not winners and losers. This has spread to treating dog/pets like little people. They aren't and shouldn't be treated that way. Are my dogs indulged? Yes, if you consider that they sleep in the house, travel with us often, are well fed, and loved. They don't receive Christmas/birthday presents. They have to mind their manners, but in return they travel with us often.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I am seeing a huge disconnect here where you are speaking about adopting dogs while blaming reputable breeders for the problems. The dogs I know, and the people on here I see posting, that have been purchased from reputable breeders are not the ones as a rule posting about health and temperament problems. In fact, from my own experience and what I see posted on here, it is just the opposite.
> 
> I can easily point out 30 - 100 breeders that have proven lines over many years. It is a veritable smorgasbord out there with many fine breeders, and yes, some do post on this forum.


That's part of answer. Owners who take the time to research breeders and line, then pay a hefty price for a dog are more likely to make the effort to learn how to train and socialize a German
Shepherd.

I have a shelter rescue whose behavior and temperament are excellent but when I adopted her I knew what to look for. The only problem I have with her is scavenging, which is a direct result of living in the wilds before she landed in a shelter. I refused this time around to take a dog that had dog or human aggression. I still had to work with her for over a year to solidify her good qualities and knock out her less appealing ones.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

WIBackpacker said:


> I think if you zoom out and look at the typical lifestyle paradigm, you'll see some more patterns that may answer your question. On a BIG scale.
> 
> We live in a culture where it's "normal" to go out and buy what you want, on a whim, or because you _think_ you want it. Because you think something is beautiful, popular, a status symbol. People buy Hummers to go grocery shopping and pick up the kids from school. They buy full size F150 trucks, drive to the golf course every weekend, and never put a single scratch on the hitch because they own it for years and it never touches a trailer. Many of our kitchens are outfitted with restaurant quality gadgets and stainless appliances, and yet the family rarely cooks at home. People own expensive technical mountaineering brands of outdoor clothing, and they wear their $400 Marmot or Arc'teryx vest to the mall to go shopping. They have never, and will never, climb a mountain, yet they want to own gear worthy of K2.
> 
> ...


WOW!! I'm impressed! That certainly speaks to my question as to why GSD's are always in the top Three on the most popular dog breeds! :dancingtree:


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

:thumbup:

Not just adopting but also buying from BYBs.




MineAreWorkingline said:


> I am seeing a huge disconnect here where you are speaking about adopting dogs while blaming reputable breeders for the problems. The dogs I know, and the people on here I see posting, that have been purchased from reputable breeders are not the ones as a rule posting about health and temperament problems. In fact, from my own experience and what I see posted on here, it is just the opposite.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> That's part of answer. Owners who take the time to research breeders and line, then pay a hefty price for a dog are more likely to make the effort to learn how to train and socialize a German
> Shepherd.
> 
> I have a shelter rescue whose behavior and temperament are excellent but when I adopted her I knew what to look for. The only problem I have with her is scavenging, which is a direct result of living in the wilds before she landed in a shelter. I refused this time around to take a dog that had dog or human aggression. I still had to work with her for over a year to solidify her good qualities and knock out her less appealing ones.


Shelter and rescue dogs can be excellent options for those who know specifically what they want in an adult dog, and have the ability to recognize it when they see it.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

llombardo said:


> There are 5-10 breeders on here that come recommended. When people post a breeder they might want to use, it's shot down and people say pass on the puppy. So where are people suppose to go?


We are enthusiastic about dogs and good breeding but people here go to extremes in trying to find the perfect dog. There are no perfect dogs. There are no perfect breeders. We act like there is something wrong with a breeder wanting to make a profit. Why? I looked at an enormous list of breeders, then started visiting Websites and crossing them off. I looked at pros and cons of those mentioned here but didn't use the opinions given to cross them off. When I had a smaller number, I started contacting breeders. Several had no dogs for sale, ever, so I'm not sure how they call themselves breeders. One had a litter that was close to perfect for us in temperament, energy levels, look, line, and said her dogs are spoken for years in advance. She only has one or two litters a year. I finally had to move to breeders with multiple litters a year, which I know people here would discourage me from.

I ended up finding exactly the dog we wanted from a breeder who has pros and cons. I'm not going to mention the name because it's not even relevant. I don't care what anyone here thinks about the breeder, I care that we got an excellent dog that is perfect for our family. He's not a perfect puppy, but he's just what we needed and wanted. I appreciate suggestions given here to me and to other people, but in the end, we did what was right for us.

If I knew little about shepherds and came here for the first time, listened to what everyone says, I would not have a working line dog. Or I would have bought one with much higher drive than I need because the lines people here like best tend to be high drive dogs for IPO. Or I would have said forget this and looked for a breeder in the paper, and ended up with a BYB.

One more thing, every rescue we have ever owned or fostered has been from a BYB. Not one was a quality purebred, but they were all good pets in their own ways. Breeding is the start, but we can't rule out training and socialization and common sense handling.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Shelter and rescue dogs can be excellent options for those who know specifically what they want in an adult dog, and have the ability to recognize it when they see it.


They can also be good for a first time owner if they let someone reliable help them select a dog, then the new owners train them. Even if a rescue is obedience trained, going through a class together bonds the dog and owner and teaches a new owner something about dog behavior in a controlled setting. I could train any dog at home, but I take them all to group classes, even if the fosters if I have them long enough.


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## maverick_sablegsd (Dec 23, 2015)

@LuvShepherds ..Well said, this sounds like exactly what I am going through. Your insight was great. I agree with you.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

llombardo said:


> There are 5-10 breeders on here that come recommended. When people post a breeder they might want to use, it's shot down and people say pass on the puppy. So where are people suppose to go?


Nine out of ten times when I see a breeder shot down on this forum it is because they are NOT a reputable breeder. 

The other 10% when I see a reputable breeder is not recommended, it is usually because their goals in breeding are not a good match for what he prospective buyer is looking for.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Maverick, you need to research and then trust your instincts. The people offering advice here mean well and are excited for you. They want to help you avoid mistakes. But it gets complicated because we all have our own opinions and ways of making decisions.


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## maverick_sablegsd (Dec 23, 2015)

yes, I know. So far I have only felt good intentions from all the forums I have been on. I am new but I love being a part it. I have made a choice to not go with True haus only because they may be too high drive for my family although they are wonderful dogs. I feel confident and excited about my decision. New puppy coming in Feb!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Nine out of ten times when I see a breeder shot down on this forum it is because they are NOT a reputable breeder.
> 
> The other 10% when I see a reputable breeder is not recommended, it is usually because their goals in breeding are not a good match for what he prospective buyer is looking for.


The issue is what is considered a reputable breeder? Because the breeder is not considered reputable to some, does that mean they aren't reputable? Like someone else said they decided for themselves based on what they were looking for in their life.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

llombardo said:


> The issue is what is considered a reputable breeder? Because the breeder is not considered reputable to some, does that mean they aren't reputable? Like someone else said they decided for themselves based on what they were looking for in their life.


Just because somebody has a website does not make them a reputable breeder. I know what constitutes a reputable breeder has been hashed out many times over on this forum.

Reputable breeders breed to meet or exceed the breed standard with each and every litter. Reputable breeders have a plan and a goal in mind. They do appropriate health testing, put their dogs out there in different venues for third party opinions and for the whole world to see what they are doing with their dogs so that there is much to go on by what other people know and see, not just what a breeder tells you. 

They know their pedigrees for many generations back, what they produce, the good and the bad, they make informed decisions based on this knowledge on what dogs to breed to improve or enhance qualities while compensating for lesser ones. They look at the whole picture of the dogs, not just bits and pieces, and make overall breeding decisions, not single quality breedings. Most train in their venues, even if they don't title, in order to have a solid working knowledge of their dogs and the breed in general.

Reputable breeders have a high desire for their puppies and their new owners to succeed in their respective venues, be it a police K9 or a GSD that will excel as an active companion.

That is about it off the top of my head, I am sure there is much to be added, perhaps somebody else would like to chime in with more.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> Originally Posted by* llombardo*
> The issue is what is considered a reputable breeder? Because the breeder is not considered reputable to some, does that mean they aren't reputable? Like someone else said they decided for themselves based on what they were looking for in their life.


I'd rather describe a good breeder as being responsible...their reputation speaks for itself. They tend to be the ones breeding to the standard and prove themselves in generations of what they are producing, dogs that can excel in many venues and do whatever is asked, with longevity as a given/ bonus.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

So a good breeder has proven themselves with generations, titling, etc. How did they start? Everyone has to start somewhere. So if someone is on their first breeding, has done everything the right way(testing and titles), they are not considered reputable because they don't have the years of experience or generations of pups?

Just looking for clarification here. How does one get that good reputation if they are just starting out and people don't consider them reputable?


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Usually they started with good foundation puppies/dogs they purchased from another reputable breeder. Therefore they have many dogs in the pedigree showing the breed worthiness of their founding dogs.

They continue on with with testing, titling, showing under their kennel name.

Reputable breeders will create positive relationships with other reputable breeders.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

llombardo said:


> So a good breeder has proven themselves with generations, titling, etc. How did they start? Everyone has to start somewhere. So if someone is on their first breeding, has done everything the right way(testing and titles), they are not considered reputable because they don't have the years of experience or generations of pups?
> 
> Just looking for clarification here. How does one get that good reputation if they are just starting out and people don't consider them reputable?


Proven and reputable are two different things that can go hand in hand but not necessarily. An established reputable breeder is proven, a newer reputable breeder usually works with the mentorship of an established reputable breeder.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

dogma13 said:


> I'm right there with you Stone.It is depressing.Don't you feel like actually going to where some of these folks are and helping them sometimes?
> I think you are right in that it's just too much dog for them sometimes.The cute fuzzy puppy begins to show his genetic predispositions and it's not what they envisioned.Having a hard time working with and understanding the dog in front of them?


On the failed owners part, I think that you are correct. If you were to ask a group of people that had surrendered their dogs, I think that you would find these commonalities among them;

We really didn't know that the training would have to be constant. It's a never ending job. 

All we really wanted was a dog that would fit in with our lifestyle. We don't understand why people told us crating all day and both working long hours could work out. It didn't.

We thought it might be fun to participate in a sport so we chose a suitable dog to to this. In reality - we have neither the time or inclination and never got around to doing anything. We ended up with a dog unsuitable for what we really needed.

We paid more money for a dog because we felt we would be getting a better quality pup. What we got was an uncontrollable dog (or a sick dog or a dog with tons of allergies). 

We didn't know until our pup reached the beginning of maturity what we really had. The problems surprised the breeder too. How could we have done differently?

We certainly never expected our dog to bite someone, there was something wrong with that dog. It wasn't our fault. 

All this can be classed as "too much dog", incorrect training or a temperament (breeding) problem. 

I don't see how the basic inexperienced GSD owner has much of the information they need up front to prevent these train wrecks from happening. 

I would rather see more honesty provided to them in general about the breed, such as;

This dog will require constant training or it can become destructive. If you can't commit to this - it's not the breed for you.

There are health issues with this breed, while we try to minimize that, it's still a problem. You need to be ready for this, no one wants this but it happens.

It's great to think that you want to do sports or _____ training with this dog. We have to warn you - if we place this type of pup with you and you do not work this dog, you may end up with behavior problems.

This dog may require special food/medication to maintain health and it can get expensive, you need to be able to afford this. 

Many times people get in over their heads with these dogs. You need to be willing and able to bring in the services of a qualified trainer. If you cannot or will not do this, this is not the breed for you.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> Originally Posted by* llombardo*So a good breeder has proven themselves with generations, titling, etc. How did they start? Everyone has to start somewhere. So if someone is on their first breeding, has done everything the right way(testing and titles), they are not considered reputable because they don't have the years of experience or generations of pups?
> 
> Just looking for clarification here. How does one get that good reputation if they are just starting out and people don't consider them reputable?


A breeder starting out is hopefully being mentored by one or a few experienced breeders that knows what they are doing(as far as producing good working dogs). They are working/titling their dogs and doing health testing. They have a network of experienced people they train regularly with that is also giving them input in making breeding decisions.
Most of the 'new' breeders I know are not doing it willy nilly, but understand their dogs pedigree and make choices about the breeding match based on the strength/weaknesses of both dogs.
One reason belonging to a supportive club(s) if your goal is to be a breeder, is making good friends with those already experienced in the breed(whatever breed). 
Even some who may only want a litter to get their next working prospect aren't doing it out of convenience, but out of learning about the dogs they are actually breeding and what they will produce. Before the pups are even on the ground, people know about it through word of mouth and the dogs producing the litter are good dogs, so selling the litter isn't hard to do. 
I don't mean breeding to the top names, either, but what people see at training, how balanced a dog is, that is what sells puppies.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> On the failed owners part, I think that you are correct. If you were to ask a group of people that had surrendered their dogs, I think that you would find these commonalities among them;
> 
> We really didn't know that the training would have to be constant. It's a never ending job.


That is simply not true, I don't train for life. I train some manners, I train some basic commands, I train some advanced commands depending on the dog and its purpose. I do refresher work from time to time. But more than anything, I take my dogs out with me and enjoy them. A dog that needs constantly trained is a burden. I think way too many people harp on the train train train bandwagon rather than addressing the core issues with the dog, always trying to solve things their way instead of viewing the dog as a living, breathing entity with innate needs to be satisfied as nature intended.



Stonevintage said:


> All we really wanted was a dog that would fit in with our lifestyle. We don't understand why people told us crating all day and both working long hours could work out. It didn't.


I agree with this, but doesn't crating all day really only pertain to a dog's younger years when chewing and housebreaking are issues when left alone all day? Isn't the ultimate goal to be allowed loose once proven trustworthy? And whatever happened to basements? So many used to give a room in the basement or run of the entire cellar when gone for long periods of time. I never see that offered as a suggestion anymore.



Stonevintage said:


> We thought it might be fun to participate in a sport so we chose a suitable dog to to this. In reality - we have neither the time or inclination and never got around to doing anything. We ended up with a dog unsuitable for what we really needed.


Perhaps the intentions to participate in sports are good, perhaps the locality is where the problem lies. I know one breeder near me that travels two to four hours one way to train with her dogs. That is simply not feasible for most with jobs and a life beyond just their dog. Not being able to participate in IPO, dock diving, or agility should not preclude a dog from being a good active companion and family pet.



Stonevintage said:


> We paid more money for a dog because we felt we would be getting a better quality pup. What we got was an uncontrollable dog (or a sick dog or a dog with tons of allergies).


Paying more for a dog does not mean getting a better quality pup. I have seen puppy millers and backyard breeders charge and get more money for their puppies based on one quality such as size or color than any reputable breeder gets paid for one of their puppies.



Stonevintage said:


> We didn't know until our pup reached the beginning of maturity what we really had. The problems surprised the breeder too. How could we have done differently?


This one it too easy, they could have bought from a reputable breeder who would have ensured the purchaser would have known what to expect at maturity before selling them one of their pups.



Stonevintage said:


> We certainly never expected our dog to bite someone, there was something wrong with that dog. It wasn't our fault.


Why not expect it to bite? They bought a German Shepherd that was created and bred throughout the decades to perform in various venues, especially protection, whose breed standard specifically calls for the dog to have the ability to guard. Dogs don't have opposing thumbs, they can't use a sling shot to protect their property or owners, they use their teeth. 



Stonevintage said:


> All this can be classed as "too much dog", incorrect training or a temperament (breeding) problem.


It can also be classified as trying to cheap their way out by buying from a backyard breeder and then being shocked when not only problems arise, but the breeder is long gone.



Stonevintage said:


> I don't see how the basic inexperienced GSD owner has much of the information they need up front to prevent these train wrecks fro
> m happening.


Ignorance can be a choice, it is not for a lack of information out there.



Stonevintage said:


> I would rather see more honesty provided to them in general about the breed, such as;
> 
> This dog will require constant training or it can become destructive. If you can't commit to this - it's not the breed for you.
> 
> ...


If you really mean your statement about seeing honesty provided, then you you need to be more supportive of reputable breeders. 

The dog will require constructive time, not necessarily training, or it can become destructive.

There are health issues in the breed, we do the best to test our dogs and produce the healthiest of pups, failing this, we offer a guarantee on the health of our puppies.

Any dogs not given suitable outlets for instincts and natural behaviors may wind up with behavior problems. 

Any dog can be afflicted with health issues that can be costly, you need to be able to afford vet care, but do remember we have a comprehensive bumper to bumper guarantee. 

Many times you can find yourself over your head. Your best option in resolution of these problems in first and foremost contacting your reputable breeder for your lifetime support on the puppy you bought from them.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> That is simply not true, I don't train for life. I train some manners, I train some basic commands, I train some advanced commands depending on the dog and its purpose. I do refresher work from time to time. But more than anything, I take my dogs out with me and enjoy them. A dog that needs constantly trained is a burden. I think way too many people harp on the train train train bandwagon rather than addressing the core issues with the dog, always trying to solve things their way instead of viewing the dog as a living, breathing entity with innate needs to be satisfied as nature intended.
> ----------------------
> the refresher work and taking the dogs out and doing things with them every day is what people mean when they say "lifetime of training". Sadly, many people tend to think that you do a puppy class at 6 months old and then TADA the dog knows everything and will never forget it.
> --------------------
> ...


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Dainerra said:


> MineAreWorkingline said:
> 
> 
> > That is simply not true, I don't train for life. I train some manners, I train some basic commands, I train some advanced commands depending on the dog and its purpose. I do refresher work from time to time. But more than anything, I take my dogs out with me and enjoy them. A dog that needs constantly trained is a burden. I think way too many people harp on the train train train bandwagon rather than addressing the core issues with the dog, always trying to solve things their way instead of viewing the dog as a living, breathing entity with innate needs to be satisfied as nature intended.
> ...


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I never said that any of these were "valid reasons" for a fail. They are excuses in order to remove the blame from themselves, the exception being plain bad breeding.

As far as a breeder being brutally honest about the breed. I feel that overkill on the warnings may prevent some of these owners from taking on a dog they can't handle.

By training, I certainly didn't mean the type of training that is needed in their younger years. Refresher ______ (insert whatever term you want to call it if you don't like the word). 

You can quote me sentence by sentence and tell me how wrong I am. But, it's my opinion and I have a right to post it. The rebuttals to each sentence are lengthy and very boring. I am not a member of a debate team and that's not why I post.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> I never said that any of these were "valid reasons" for a fail. They are excuses in order to remove the blame from themselves, the exception being plain bad breeding.
> 
> As far as a breeder being brutally honest about the breed. I feel that overkill on the warnings may prevent some of these owners from taking on a dog they can't handle.
> 
> ...


Nobody quoted "how wrong you were", although things you posted were rephrased to be seen from a different perspective, the reputable breeder side of the coin. No where was it implied that you weren't entitled to your opinion, or that you did not have the right to post it, but I don't understand why you seem to feel that I am not entitled to present another side simply because you found it lengthy, very boring, and in direct conflict with what appears to be the products of backyard breeders and puppy millers. This is a forum, a form of debate, one should expect responses to what one posts, especially when your comments appear to disparage reputably bred German Shepherds and the reputable breeders that act as stewards of this great breed so that the breed as we know it will be passed on to generations to come in the capacity for which they were bred on a German Shepherd forum.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Hmm ... well by and large I seem to be kinda of an odd duck type kinda guy on both my chosen forums?? Really the only thing I'am very good at is by and large understanding how JQP thinks??

To that end ... with GSD always in the top in three of most popular dogs ... most likely 9 out of top 10 members of JQP, have no idea what "drives" in dog means ??

Since "now" I do know what drives in dogs is ... I am no longer "qualified" to speak for "them" but by and large ...that is where they are. Just saying.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Responding to the original post by Stone.....Yeah, the flood of unwanted/"unruly"/not trainable/"more than we imagined" etc. dogs that end up with a screwed deal ....in my opinion, goes back to an old adage claiming "there are no bad dogs, just bad owners".... a sweeping generalization of course but there is some merit to the words. In defense of "bad owners" all too many simply see the finished product of a dog/breed and make assumptions as they rush to get their dog. Unfortunately, their assumptions didn't include all the integral components to end up with the dog they thought they would have. 

Best pup from the best breeder, bloodlines, temperament etc., living it's life with "bad owners" still ends up as a "bad dog". 

SuperG


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

SuperG said:


> Responding to the original post by Stone.....Yeah, the flood of unwanted/"unruly"/not trainable/"more than we imagined" etc. dogs that end up with a screwed deal ....in my opinion, goes back to an old adage claiming "there are no bad dogs, just bad owners".... a sweeping generalization of course but there is some merit to the words. In defense of "bad owners" all too many simply see the finished product of a dog/breed and make assumptions as they rush to get their dog. Unfortunately, their assumptions didn't include all the integral components to end up with the dog they thought they would have.
> 
> Best pup from the best breeder, bloodlines, temperament etc., living it's life with "bad owners" still ends up as a "bad dog".
> 
> SuperG


Very true. I just wish there was a way to more effectively communicate with these potential owners so they know and do not end up in these bad situations - and the dog always ends up paying. If this responsibility doesn't lie with the breeder - then where will they get accurate information?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

SuperG said:


> Responding to the original post by Stone.....Yeah, the flood of unwanted/"unruly"/not trainable/"more than we imagined" etc. dogs that end up with a screwed deal ....in my opinion, goes back to an old adage claiming "there are no bad dogs, just bad owners".... a sweeping generalization of course but there is some merit to the words. In defense of "bad owners" all too many simply see the finished product of a dog/breed and make assumptions as they rush to get their dog. Unfortunately, their assumptions didn't include all the integral components to end up with the dog they thought they would have.
> 
> Best pup from the best breeder, bloodlines, temperament etc., living it's life with "bad owners" still ends up as a "bad dog".
> 
> SuperG


This just isn't supported. Ask any rescue, or person who has rescued, about dogs that have been neglected, abused, unsocialized and untrained and they will all have stories to tell of the stable dogs that came out smelling like a rose. Genetically a good dog will always be a good dog and a genetically bad dog will always have problems. 

There is another thread on this forum right now about how a well bred GSD was not properly raised? trained? who knows? And how some feel he should be able to become the dog he was bred to be with skillful help from a good trainer because he has the right stuff genetically, despite his upbringing.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> This just isn't supported. Ask any rescue, or person who has rescued, about dogs that have been neglected, abused, unsocialized and untrained and they will all have stories to tell of the stable dogs that came out smelling like a rose. Genetically a good dog will always be a good dog and a genetically bad dog will always have problems.
> 
> There is another thread on this forum right now about how a well bred GSD was not properly raised? trained? who knows? And how some feel he should be able to become the dog he was bred to be with skillful help from a good trainer because he has the right stuff genetically, despite his upbringing.


I think you missed my point....and your words "_ Ask any rescue, or person who has rescued, about dogs that have been neglected, abused, unsocialized and untrained and they will all have stories to tell of the stable dogs that came out smelling like a rose._" ...are absolutely correct...but the defining factor is the dog blossomed in the hands of a good owner.

A genetically "bad" dog in the hands of a worthy human still has an ample chance to live a quality life. Perhaps my " still ends up a "bad dog"" did not include a change in ownership and that is where I created question.


SuperG


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

I've been weighing whether to chime in. There's a lot more to all this, really. So this is going to be long post...so I'll add some headings for those who want to skim.

*1. Screening buyers and adopters (because raising a puppy is hard work)
*
First, I want to highlight that the recent run of bite threads seems to be people who bought from _breeders. _They aren't rescued dogs. That tells you a lot about where some of the problems are coming from -- sometimes unethical breeders selling potentially drivey pups to inexperienced newbies who have no idea what they're buying! The dogs may not even be genetically faulty. They may just be in the wrong hands.

I totally agree that consumerism is part of the problem. Not just the profit motive on one side, but also too many people expect all GSDs to come out of the womb ready to be Rin Tin Tin. They have the money to buy a GSD, so they feel entitled to getting the pup of their choice.

I've said before that the most common age group of dog I see surrendered to shelters is adolescence -- about the time the cute fluffy puppy turns into a 75# uncivilized, energetic, out-of-control mess, having not been trained or socialized. The vast majority of those dogs _can _turn out to be great dogs once they're in the hands of an experienced foster volunteer who does a two-seek shut-down, creates a routine, crate trains, practices NILF, and gives them an outlet for energy and whatever drive they have. They're sometimes diamonds in the rough with the misfortune to fall into the hands of well-meaning, affluent newbies who simply had no business owning this kind of dog at this stage of their lives. They don't have time, don't know what to do, and have no inclination to learn. A very few dogs genuinely have screws loose and need to be put down. Most are just normal dogs who didn't get what they needed growing up, so the need someone with time and experience to do the remedial work to turn them into nice pets.

To put it into perspective, please imagine a well-bred, high-drive adolescent GSD--high defense drive, high prey drive, suspicious, and even a little hard--as a puppy growing up in the hands of a busy, early-20-something, first-time dog owner who has never owned _any_ dog at all, much less a GSD. That person has plans to _maybe _eventually do a class at the local big box store someday, walk a mile at most, twice a day, and only knows about dogs what he or she has seen on TV. Now add in a couple of kids under the age of 10 and a busy family who barely has time to shower because so much is going on with school, sports, and activities. They allegedly "love" the dog, but mostly ignore it because they're just too busy. It's a flipping disaster waiting to happen. The dog, no matter how "well bred," will run the house within 6 months, destroy furniture and who knows what else, start barking and growling at everyone and everything that comes near the door, and generally being a jackass. Why? Because the dog never learned boundaries and the human is unable to instill them, and gives the dog no outlet for its energy because it pulls on the leash, and generally just gets upset and frustrated over how miserable life has become with the dog. Bad things will happen with that dog--not because it was a dog with poor genetics, but because it's in a situation that dog should never have been put in. In a different situation, it would have thrived. Is it easily fixable? Yes, but probably not in that home.

Not everyone should own a GSD. That honestly needs to be said much more often. They're often not "easy dogs," and they can be downright miserable to own as puppies if you aren't prepared for landsharkery. They take _a lot _of time, esp. when they are young. Many of them are simply inappropriate "starter dogs."*

2. "I ONLY want a puppy--not an adult!"*

The mushy, soft, friendly middle-aged (5-7 y.o.) adult dogs who already know how to be nice pets and live with kids are sometimes really the right dog for some first-time owners. Whether a retired breeder or a fostered rescue, these dogs are sometimes incredibly forgiving of novice handlers because they _already know _how to behave because someone else already taught them. They're often "turn key" dogs. For them, a Petco class and a walk a day can end up being quite okay. Some of them will genuinely enjoy hanging out at the kids' soccer practice or whatever and being loved on by random kids who come running up to them. I've had those kind of dogs in foster care, and I could adopt them out all day, every day...because so many inexperienced applicants need _exactly _those kind of "easy" dogs. Those are the dogs I take out to be in our rescue booth during festival events -- incredible breed ambassadors. 

The problem is those easy-going, older dogs simply aren't what many of these newbie owners _think_ they need. They have convinced themselves (sometimes with a little help here) that you "avoid problems" by getting a puppy. Uh...not always. Sometimes you create problems of a whole different magnitude! These recent bite threads illustrate that.

Then layer on the fact that the "look" of WL dogs is very fashionable right now...so inexperienced people simply want to own one. I know that when we get adolescent (or younger) dark-sable, or darkly pigmented black-and-tan with a big, blocky "DDR head" in rescue, inexperienced people swoon. They blow-up the email with messages about how they "love the straight-backed dogs" because they read it somewhere. If it's a puppy, I brace myself for a hard search for the right home. They are the most at risk of being returned because they are so exhausting.

No matter how much warning we put on the bio about the time and patience needed for a young dog, or the need for breed-experience with a particular kind of temperament, we get newbie applications from people who have no idea what to do with that kind of dog. They don't read--or think it doesn't apply to them because they want _that dog_. They put on the app that they have no plans to do any professional training, have never done any before, and will walk it for a mile a day and go to the dog park for exercise -- but they "want a protection dog." Then they get mad when we say "no." They come here and post about how hard it is to get a dog out of rescue ....and they scream about how mean and nasty rescue people are for not giving them the specific dog they wanted and daring to recommend some older, easier dog instead. Or they post about how this-or-that reputable breeder wouldn't ever get back to them (when the reality is that breeder learned enough about them to hope that they'd just go away!).
*
3. The importance of saying "no" to some buyers & adopters*

I honestly believe that both good breed rescues AND good breeders are usually screening owners and saying "no" when it needs to be said. That's a GOOD thing. "No" needs to be said a lot, frankly. Both types of entities care deeply about good matches, because both are in it for the long-haul for "their" dogs -- being there for support, and if needed, to take the dog back if it doesn't work out. So we have all the incentive in the world to make sure we pay attention to good matches, so that dogs don't come back. Both are on the same side of the fence about all this, though people here like to pit them against each other.

The problem is that there aren't enough "good" homes for all the dogs that need them. So some of the dogs end up with homes none of us would probably think are perfect. Good breeders and good rescues can stay in touch with those homes, provide support, follow-up on training, and help people troubleshoot issues. That can help "so-so" adopters hopefully turn into much better owners over time as they learn and gain experience.

The problem is in the other side of the fence. Both BYBs/puppy millers AND big public shelters are the source of many of the issues here. Adopting from a shelter is NOT adopting from a rescue. It's a whole other world. They are the ones saying "yes" to anyone with the money, without any concern for repercussions.They offer no follow-up support whatsoever: when you walk out the door with a dog, you are on your own for whatever comes next.
* 
4. Public shelters, lack of breed experience, and "open adoptions"*

I volunteered for _years _as a breed advocate in a high-kill public shelter, before co-founding a breed rescue--we decided it was time to break away and co-found the rescue in part because we wanted complete control of adoption decisions (not only the right to say "no," but the right to have an adoption contract requiring novice OB training course completion within 4 months). In breed rescue, I temperament test _a lot _of GSDs in shelters -- one local shelter gets over 100 a year, and another two an hour away get at least that many.) A good friend and I _choose_ which dogs to pull. They don't all leave with us. We leave behind dogs that display human aggression during an evaluation. We even try to "kid test" with my friend's young kids, who are experienced and fantastic helpers. We actively look for good breed ambassadors. Public shelters don't have that luxury -- if they are open-intake, they have to accept whatever dogs come through the doors.

I try to help the staff at public shelters when I evaluate GSDs by sharing my thoughts on any dogs we decide not to pull. I notify the shelter management, if I've seen something in the dog during the eval that makes me believe the dog is a ticking time bomb. If I'm not sure, I sometimes go back several times to think carefully about what I'm seeing. The shelters I pull from tell me that they trust me because I'm honest: if I think a dog is dangerous, I don't just leave it behind--I tell them what I saw so that they can decide whether they want it in their own adoption program. I tell them how to replicate what I saw too. If it's a menace to the public, I'll tell them that very directly. What comes next is up to them.

Every GSR that has signed the AGSRA code of conduct has promised not to adopt out dogs with human aggression. I know of no GSR that adopts out known human-aggressive dogs. If real human aggression reveals itself with a dog in our care, every good rescue I know will take time to figure it out and make the "hard decision." 

Shelters vary in terms of what they will adopt out. Some are very strict about temperaments -- and hardly any GSDs make it through because natural aloofness and suspicion doom them all. Many use the flawed APSCA SAFER protocol, and most GSDs score poorly. They require a more experienced eye not cookie-cutter check-lists. Some shelters are very lax and adopt out any dog that the public might find attractive. All shelter managers will take a dog out of an adoption program if it bites or tries to bite a human. Not all are good at seeing _potential _bites that haven't yet happened but are just waiting for the right trigger. That takes a lot more experience than most shelter staff have available.

Many shelters have young, idealistic volunteers who think all dogs can and should be saved, and those volunteers get terribly angry at rescues that decline to pull a dog based on temperament. _They_ may not realize what a certain ear position, whale eyes, or body tension means (yet)...and will someday say the dog "bit without warning." Nope, the was telegraphing it loud and clear, but you didn't see it. So they post on FB about what meanies the rescue people are for not taking it, and they find the dog a home straight out of the shelter. What happens next is on the shelter who chose to adopt it out, not us. 

Worse, with that dog we left behind, clueless applicants who couldn't get the dog they wanted from the breed rescue then rush to adopt one straight out of a shelter, congratulating themselves on only paying $80 instead of $350 for an adoption fee by "scooping" a dog out of the shelter before the "mean old breed rescue" could get it (ignorant of the fact that we actually declined to pull the dog). They have no idea what they did, and the shelter let them do it, cheerfully chalking up another "live release" that month. We shake our heads, glad to not be involved in the impending mess.

Most shelter employees have NO CLUE how to read GSDs--even the most experienced of them. The largest shelter in my area sees a lot of GSDs, but their head intake manager for a long time thought they are all "unreadable." She genuinely thought that the breed was prone to biting without warning. Most of us who know the breed well know that GSDs nearly always telegraph intentions loud-and-clear, if you know what to look for. I've now spent a lot of time with her getting her to stop looking at whatever she looks for in other breeds and instead focus on GSD ears and eye positions. Their ears "talk" with incredible clarity. She's getting better at realizing that a difference of 1/4 inch in an ear angled to the rear can be the equivalent of the dog trying to yell, "I'm feeling threatened enough to bite. Back off now!" 

Additionally, there is a toxic sheltering trend among high-kill public shelters in the U.S. to bring down euth rates through a program called "open adoptions." It started from a well-intentioned idea that it's unacceptable to have major cities in the U.S. where 80% of healthy dogs are being euthanized in shelters -- literally millions of dogs a year, including tens of thousands of GSDs. It's being pushed by a non-profit out of Jacksonville, FL called the Target Zero Institute--a group pushing shelters in the South toward "no kill." As implemented, it results in anyone who walks through the shelter door leaving with whatever dog they want. Participating shelters sign onto a program where they will never decline to adopt a dog to anyone who wants one. There are no reasons for denials, only "opportunities for education." It's the antithesis of the adoption process in breed rescue -- no references, no home checks, no effort to match appropriately. Want a Cane Corso or Presa Canario as your first dog? You've got it! Pay the $80 adoption fee to the cashier, and you're good to go! 

When TZI arrived in my city, they undid 3 years of volunteer work I'd done to get the shelter to better screen adopters of GSD and Mals, so that the dogs went to appropriate homes. I'd managed to nearly eliminate the return rate on those breeds over 3 years, through better screening of adopters. The adoptable dogs were getting out of the shelter, to the right homes. Overnight, it was undone. Now anybody can get one of those dogs, with hardly any questions asked. Often they even hold $10 adoption events, so anyone with very little cash in the wallet can walk out with a purebred GSD -- and then even resell it on Craigslist for a few hundred bucks! *sigh*

When "open adoptions" comes to the shelter management in your city, be afraid. There will be photo ops with politicians who claim to be animal lovers. They won't talk about the returned dogs, or the problems that happen -- bites and other issues that would have never happened, had the shelter screened and matched applicants appropriately. Secretly they'll congratulate themselves on being able to run shelters with very lean staffs, and few adoption counselors, since no one has time anyway to inquire much about potential adopters.

Nothing matters more in rehoming dogs than putting dogs in the _right_ kind of home for what the dog needs. Not every well-intentioned home is the right fit for every dog. Yes, this may result in "hurt feelings" on the part of the human. Admittedly, we may even sometimes miss out on some "good" adopters that way. I can live with that if it means not having to ever see one of my adopters post a "my dog bit someone" thread here. I'm pretty sure good breeders feel the same way. 

Good breeders and good rescues can sometimes take a "flier" on an inexperienced person when the person is committed to training. I love it when I get a text from the trainer recommended on our website that an applicant named "Mr. So-and So" just called him to inquire about enrolling a dog he's trying to adopt--it tells me the person is serious about learning, and we can write enrolling in that course into the adoption contract. I've _never _had an inexperienced home fail to work out when the adopter followed through on the training commitment with our recommended trainer. Not once. This is a totally different situation than the average shelter adopter, who thinks he or she can train the dog at home on his or her own, by watching the Dog Whisperer reruns.

Dogs with good genetics don't fix themselves after their first puppy-placement fails. It's work to turn them around. It's enjoyable work, but still work. I've seen some really good dogs in rescue that were fairly badly behaved dogs with prior owners in previous lives--I read the owner surveys about all the "problems" these dogs had with misbehavior that lead to the dog being surrendered. Those dogs often become dogs their former owners wouldn't recognize in just 2-3 weeks in an experienced foster home. They become truly _awesome _dogs in experienced hands, with a perceptive person paying attention to the individual dog and what it needed. They need help to get there and bring out their potential. Good genetics don't just produce a well behaved dog. That's earned. 

In one case, an adopter I know decided to start her "difficult" rescued WL dog in IPO to give him an outlet for all the stuff that was causing her problems--voila! He became the dog she wanted, and once he had an appropriate outlet for the behavior his genetics told him he needed to engage in, he became "pure awesomeness." She ended up with a dog everyone now wants to own...but that awesome dog could have ended up a very different, trouble-prone dog, in the hands of a less committed, newbie owner. Had he been at an "open adoption shelter" he'd have likely become a problem dog--not due to faulty genetics but due to _good _working genetics that desperately needed to be channeled and given an appropriate outlet to keep the dog from getting into trouble. 

I can't help but think that many of the dogs in these "adolescent dog bit someone" could easily be the same kind of dog who ended up in the completely wrong kind of home. I think SuperG is absolutely right about that.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Great posts Magwart and SuperG.


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> Many shelters this time of year are emptying them out with free adoptions. I am not a fan of that because they boast that they adopted out all their dogs/cats, yet I wonder how well they actually screened and matched the animals to the home. How many will end up back at the shelter or worse.
> 
> I did get a puppy as a Christmas surprise 9 years ago. She was a lucky pup, because had she ended up with a clueless owner, she'd probably have been rehomed or dumped due to her nerves/aggression. I've owned dogs all my life, Onyx was the first to show reactive aggression and less than steller nerves. If I didn't step up my game, she would have been failed.
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing the article - it was insightful.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> This just isn't supported. Ask any rescue, or person who has rescued, about dogs that have been neglected, abused, unsocialized and untrained and they will all have stories to tell of the stable dogs that came out smelling like a rose. Genetically a good dog will always be a good dog and a genetically bad dog will always have problems.
> 
> There is another thread on this forum right now about how a well bred GSD was not properly raised? trained? who knows? And how some feel he should be able to become the dog he was bred to be with skillful help from a good trainer because he has the right stuff genetically, despite his upbringing.


So many variables. Good genetics help. One can only hope in a "stacking the odds" way.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Great post Magwart. Thanks! I do have a question regarding your foster comment in the third to last paragraph.

This sounds like this would be the best hope for a problem dog in some cases. With the problems that have come up here, specifically this one and the one a few days ago (in which the new owner with kids - dropped her dog off at a night receiving area at an animal rescue) - would a foster take dogs like these if they had an opening?

I see where the one that was dumped at the rescue was immediately deemed not adoptable because there was a bite that drew blood, is that also the policy with fosters? 

If it's not, than perhaps these people should be referred to a foster first (if it was suspected that the dog just got into a very bad situation with an unsuitable owner)? Realizing that there are dogs that are not likely to be rehabbed, but many that could be - it's just such a horror to me to watch these dogs get put down because there's simply not enough good homes. so there's a process in which many good dogs lose their lives because of lack of time or space. 

I'm just curious about the general rules of a foster, must the dogs always be surrendered or is there a chance that the pup could be placed back with an owner (but only on their approval)? Are most fosters too full and there are seldom openings? Just wondering if there should be more referrals to fosters instead of rescues in situations like these as a last resort. Thanks!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Magwart, thanking you for sharing a lot of good information and experience.

When we were kids, there were no computers and no leash laws and there wasn't a huge disparity between lines of GSDs. 

One day our free roaming GSD brought home an emaciated @ six month GSD pup that would not leave. Of course we gave him food and water. After about two or three days, he started barking and lunging at children walking to and from school. This is probably the type of dog most rescues would leave behind or put down.

Of course, my family was concerned so my father chained the dog to protect children until we could find the owner. When we could not find the owner, we kept the dog. There were three children in the household, and another adult GSD as well as a cat. Except for occasional lunges at the cat, the dog never showed any sign of aggression with a family member. 

Another two to three months later a car stopped and a man said: Hey! That's my dog! So we gave him his dog back. A day or two later the dog was back. My brother ran into the man and told him his dog was back at our house again. This time the man said keep him. He said the neighborhood kids were really cruel and abusive with the dog, and always had been since he was a pup, and he was afraid that now that the dog was older he might hurt one of the kids.

So we kept the dog, no training, no socialization, no nothing but a home. He was the most aggressive GSD I ever encountered in my life, but stable, sealed my love for the breed. He never, ever raised a lip to a family member, but as children we had been taught to respect sleeping and eating dogs. This was also the very same dog that ran off leash with the kids for walks in the neighborhoods. True to his breed, he was aloof, he never attacked anybody on these excursions. He was very stable. On the other hand he was also very protective and territorial of the home. This is the kind of dog I am speaking about. No training, no socializing, even abused, placed in a home where he received no training, no socializing, but no abuse, just good genetics and he was a good dog right from the start regardless of his history. Back then, he was just but one of many GSDs to be found lost, abandoned or wondering the streets, history, training, socialization unknown, given a home without further training or socialization. Our older dog was acquired under similar circumstances, followed one of the kids home, wouldn't leave, found the owner who took him back, dog came back and owner said to keep him. It was not unusual back in those days. Those two were only two of many to share my childhood and early adult days, once again, no special training or socialization, just good genetics. 

I understand why a rescue or shelter needs to be concerned about aggression, but the truth is that a German Shepherd is supposed to have some aggression, and that is the kind of dog that I am talking about, although the aggression should never be directed at the immediate family, neither should it be viewed as undesirable. 

Despite the lineage of my current dogs, their genetics, their heritable behavior, I still, to this day, view that emaciated pup as one of the finest German Shepherds that even my current dogs can't touch.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

LuvShepherds said:


> I see a direct correlation between the rise of positive only training and the rise in aggressive dogs. We have to start understanding dog behavior and not looking at them as children. They are dogs, they don't reasos and they can't think things through.
> 
> I have a working line puppy who is adorable, but I can't sit and baby him all day or he would already be walking all over me. I started training him the first week we got him. We began socializing him at home right away. He's not even 4 months old yet, and is already exhibiting independent behavior. I love my dog and I'm tough with him when I need to be, puppy or not.
> 
> It seems from reading this board and talking to people in real life that people mix up positive training with being a pushover. Dogs will push us as much as they can unless we push back. They don't know any better. They do what is natural for them. My best socialized dogs were the one I owned when I was the busiest and the dogs had to wait their turn for attention. They were well trained but they were ignored during the regular day, unless it was my idea. I still do that and it works out well. I spend a lot of time training my dogs, and walking them when they are old enough, but on my schedule.


One of the threads that spurred this post was a dog whose owner did NILIF with him since they got him as a puppy, and was using a prong collar on him to correct. 

Bad training is bad training, whatever the type of training. 
Bad timing is bad communication, whatever the type of communication.
Bad temperament is bad temperament, whatever type of training you employ.

Along with the rise of positive training methods, are people who have little to no experience with dogs, understanding of how to train and manage dogs, undisciplined themselves and afraid to discipline their dogs. 

It is true that some people consider positive training being a pushover, both those who train it badly, and those who criticize it. 

The more experience I get, the fewer and fewer corrections I need to make. What does this mean? It means that for some dogs, they can be trained with positive reinforcement, with excellent results, and the problem is on the other end of the lead in many cases.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Just wanted to mention that the dogs I see in other forums with biting issues do not seem to be from breeders as one person posted except for one with words being tossed out there like adopted, etc.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

> Not everyone should own a GSD. That honestly needs to be said much more often. They're often not "easy dogs," and they can be downright miserable to own as puppies if you aren't prepared for landsharkery. They take a lot of time, esp. when they are young. Many of them are simply inappropriate "starter dogs."


I've thought about this a lot, as well. I can't help but wonder if this scenario isn't terribly common: First time owner wants a German Shepherd. First time owner is declined by conscientious breeder, for sensible reasons. First time owner is also denied by conscientious rescue organization, for the same reasons. First time owner gets offended, feels entitled to own their very own GSD, and storms out the door, cash in hand, determined to find their "dream dog". First time owner walks straight into the waiting arms of the backyard breeder, the open shelter adoption event, or similar.

When you combine consumerism, entitlement, and stubborn pride, it's a recipe for disaster.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Stone, foster homes are provided thru the rescue. therefore the dog must be surrendered to the rescue or pulled from the shelter. the dog is not returned to the owner.

anyone who fosters dogs independently of a rescue or privately funded shelter would have their own set of standards and policies. many are not willing to foster in this manner.

I do not believe it was a rescue organization in the case of the woman who put her dog in the night drop box. I know what she said but that is highly unlikely and much more common among county and city shelters.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Fodder said:


> Stone, foster homes are provided thru the rescue. therefore the dog must be surrendered to the rescue or pulled from the shelter. the dog is not returned to the owner.
> 
> anyone who fosters dogs independently of a rescue or privately funded shelter would have their own set of standards and policies. many are not willing to foster in this manner.
> 
> I do not believe it was a rescue organization in the case of the woman who put her dog in the night drop box. I know what she said but that is highly unlikely and much more common among county and city shelters.



That post, and the way it all went down still has me very upset. I do feel that some of the comments here with her were directly responsible that helped her to justify doing what she did. I still can't fathom the judgment to put a dog down when it has not been properly evaluated, let alone to give this advice based on the posts over the internet. I think she just dumped him too. I tried to get her to calm down, not panic and just separate the dog from the kids and other pet, so she could try to resource and do right for herself, her kids AND THE DOG - but apparently she heard exactly what she needed to here in order to send that dog to it's death. Very sad. 

I never saw any of her posts say that the bites/nips drew blood - yet she was apparently asked that by where ever she dumped the dog and told them yes - it did draw blood. 

I know several people that work at our local Humane Society Thrift Store that foster. I know that they have taken in animals directly and not thru the shelter - some in cases where there is a death of an owner and some when there is some type of disruption in the home that the dog can't be kept. 

So what you are saying is if a dog nips/bites - he hasn't got a chance? There is nowhere to refer to that won't kill them?


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Not many people who foster want to put their families at risk with human aggressive dogs. Many have kids. Most also don't want to deal with dog aggression that could result in an injury to their own personal dogs either. 

Remember, this is a hobby for people--when it stops being enjoyable, they're done. Subjecting foster volunteers to genuine aggression is a very common reason people choose to stop fostering for shelters or rescues that aren't careful in their evaluation process -- meaning lots of dogs can't be saved in the future because a great home stopped wanting to help. Rescues that "abuse" foster homes by sticking them with dangerous dogs--human aggressive, dog aggressive, whatever--tend to lose really good foster homes.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Magwart said:


> Not many people who foster want to put their families at risk with human aggressive dogs. Many have kids. Most also don't want to deal with dog aggression that could result in an injury to their own personal dogs either.
> 
> Remember, this is a hobby for people--when it stops being enjoyable, they're done. Subjecting foster volunteers to genuine aggression is a very common reason people choose to stop fostering for shelters or rescues that aren't careful in their evaluation process -- meaning lots of dogs can't be saved in the future because a great home stopped wanting to help. Rescues that "abuse" foster homes by sticking them with dangerous dogs--human aggressive, dog aggressive, whatever--tend to lose really good foster homes.


Thanks for the information. I'm just not sure some of these are "genuine aggression" and not simply an unruly pup that is untrained and not likely to be trained in the unsuitable environment that it was brought into. Would you have considered either of these two cases "genuine aggression" based solely on the postings or would you rely on an experienced person with actual access to the dog to do an evaluation? I'm just trying to gauge what people should or should not be recommending the next time a post like this appears here.....


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Here's a way to think about it that may give some perspective, Stone:

There aren't enough foster spaces for all the GOOD dogs that have never bitten and are unlikely to ever bite. 

If you opt to take up a foster space for a dog with a bite history, and invest 6 months in rehab to MAYBE turn it around (and maybe still end up finding it to be unadoptable), in that time, there were 6 other dogs who needed nothing more than potty-training, house manners and a little basic OB, who could have found good homes in under a month. Do you let the 6 other "easy" dogs without bite histories die while you take on that project dog that may or may not turn out to be fixable? It's a crappy way to have to think about lives, but it's real.

There's no possible way for anyone here to know whether someone was talking about enthusiastic play-nipping or real bites. Even when professional shelter staff send me their own evaluation reports, I can't rely on them. I need to see the dog myself to see what's going on with it. It sometimes takes me several hours with the dog to make a decision. Sometimes clueless owners totally misunderstand overly excited landsharkery --declaring it to be a bite when the heathen-pup is really playing and hasn't learned a soft mouth. I've seen that on surrender paperwork, then looked at the dog, and it was a freaking 12-week old, friendly puppy whose annoying, excited play-nips were totally misunderstood. Sometimes young kids torment the dog to the point of a quick "leave me alone" air-snap that someone calls a "bite." Other times a bite is really a bite, and the dog was deadly serious. That's not something that's easy to tell from posts here.

The fundamental thing that owners like that need to realize is that they need to put on their big-kid pants and deal with the problem THEY created -- not dump it on someone else. That may mean investing in sessions with a behaviorist or qualified trainer. If those professionals feel the dog is so bad that it's too dangerous to keep in the community, can't be rehabbed, and ought to be euthanized, then these owners ought to go to THEIR vet to euthanize, and be there in the room with their dog as it passes. Sending the dog to die with strangers is honestly appalling.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I agree with Magwarts super long post. It was everything I was trying to say but much more detailed

I don't agree with a dog being deemed a biter and being destroyed based on a new owners experience. I think the dog should be fully evaluated to see if it is truly aggressive. Midnite redirected on me once and I had a huge bruise on my leg within a week of bringing him home. I remember thinking what did I do wrong and how do I fix it? There was no way he was going back, I became determined to look at him as an individual dog and his needs. It did not take long to bring out the very best in him. The shelter also did not list on his bio that he was brought in for nipping at kids, I found that out later after I called them a week later to try to get more info on him. The scary part? I brought him right into the house with 4 kids under 8 yrs old, without having that knowledge. This could have been diasterous, but Midnite never displayed any behavior besides love for the kids. 

When I got my first dog, non-GSD they didn't know how she was with kids. I remember waiting for the perfect moment to get her out of the cage when small kids were near. I had to see her reaction, which was in fact good and I felt comfortable bringing her home. No problems ever.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

This forum is part of the problem and this is why...

I still don't believe there is as many nervy GSDs out there that people think. In fact I almost cringe when I hear people use nerves or fear as reason why a dog is acting this way or that way. It's an easy out and used to frequently. We generally only get the story of the dog bit this one or that one and right away everyone is jumping to destroy the dog without further info. I'm not one that will give up on a dog if it bites, when we were younger and got bit we were asked what did you do to get bit? Guess what, there was always a reason and we learned the hard way and never did it again. A good example is the dog that bit the dog walker, the very first post was the dog went away for training. I read that and my gut told me this was an issue and in the update the new trainer in fact did see it as a problem. There are lots of posts with biting dogs and its hit or miss on here. Some dogs get a pass and some don't? Who are we to decide the fate of the dog or the liability it may or may not carry? What we do as a group is scare the owners. The same goes for dogs that have killed other dogs. There are dogs that were involved in such an act that are doing fine today around other dogs and have never showed aggression to another animal. No one here knows these dogs personally and these diagnoses shouldn't be allowed to be used in an opinion form. I despise a dog being diagnosed as such online and putting that dog at risk to end up in a not so good place. We don't know these people posting or what the whole story is. There is no way that ANYONE should deem a dog aggressive from an online post. It should not even be allowed. I think the majority of them are decent dogs that end up with no energy outlet and poor training. I also believe that this breed does just awful in a shelter environment. So putting a dog that has no manners and no training into a shelter could be a death sentence for a dog that just doesn't know better.

This is a great place to learn, but sometimes I don't think that people posting realize what their posts are telling the person with the issue. Some of these people are new, new owners, first time dog owners and they don't know what info to use because everything is really an opinion. They have no way knowing who is experienced with the issue. There are plenty of people that are experienced, but lots that aren't. It ends up confusing them and making things much worse. It doesn't help that they never give the full story, there is always something missing and by the time it comes out its 5 pages into the post, then everything changes but by then it's to late.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Thank you both for the posts. Magwart - this is the very ugly side of what happens when training goes wrong. I think it stresses the importance of how the nip/bite problems posted here are addressed. 

I'm not sure how to get the point across to these owners. The fact that if they don't intervene, act responsibly and get a professional to fix the problem, they are surely condemning their dog to death? 

Not that it will make a difference to some. - There will always be those who dump their dogs. But, if the knowledge is passed here more often, in a clear but unoffensive way - it may save some......

Instead of all the little recommendations - well, I did this or try this trick.... in these cases - with a nip or bite.....they need more - they've got to be educated and directed to the pro's and they need to know what their failure means if they don't take the advise - it's that serious and deadly of a topic. 

I believe the general thought is... well, I just can't handle him but somebody will adopt him because he's a purebred and I'm sure they will be happy the rest of their days - a much better life than I could ever give him - when in reality nothing could be further from the truth..... 

I'm going to try to put together a couple of sentence paragraph that should be posted by one of us every time the topic is active. Please help to refine it or any suggestions at all. (I'll post it here by the end of the day so you can review and comment) We need to do this here guys...


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

but.... I don't see lots of suggestions for dogs to be PTS, and I don't see lots of dogs ultimately losing their lives. I see MANY suggestions being offered, most often they are for the posters to seek professional help. next are training (different from management) tips which I feel can be just as harmful as deciding a dogs fate. both are diagnosis based on very very limited info.

when looking at who is making which suggestions and when... I think a lot has to do with the presentation from the OP. again it's only a guess but regardless of the nature of the bite a third party needs to be brought in, time, money, education, dedication, and ability all need to be present to help these dogs and honestly a lot of people don't have that - so perhaps the recommendations are based on the perception of that persons ability. sometimes we need to read situations a little better... know when to push and know when to save or breath. if a copy and paste paragraph makes you feel better... that's fine, but no situation is copy and paste so again the only advice should be to manage the dog while awaiting a professional.

for the dog that was likely PTS this past week - I wholeheartedly agree that it was a case of a young dog that could have been turned around in the right hands... a owner who has allowed the dog to bite every single member of the household, including children, in a couple days time and quickly becomes defensive when hearing that her training methods are incorrect is not only the wrong home for that dog but also not someone who is going to be receptive to the other suggestions given. but also, shame on that shelter!! to eval a dog the morning after being retrieved from a night drop box is extremely unfair. but...that's the story we were given. no way to verify.

most people have an idea in their heads of what they want to do and are just looking for someone, anyone, who agrees so that they can move forward. there is a man with 33 stitches on his face and they are going to work with the dog. there is a young person who spent Christmas Day desperately looking for help with her dog...she found it and is going to work with him even after deciding for herself to call animal control. in both cases they were given contrary suggestions to what their doing.... seemingly, hopefully, for the better.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

^ my last paragraph was a little unclear... my point is that there are those who listen and those who don't... in some cases for the better and sometimes for the worse - only time will tell.

I pointed out those specific cases because in one the couple is advocating for their dog despite what some (of us) have said. in the other case the poster went thru a back and forth transformation but is ultimately working with her dog.

more dogs living than not.

don't let one unverifiable case bring you down!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> next are training (different from management) tips which I feel can be just as harmful as deciding a dogs fate. both are diagnosis based on very very limited info.


I think talking training is ok. Telling someone how to train certain things, sit, place command, lots of things obedience related isn't diagnosing anything and obedience in general is good for any dog. Corrections can be a problem online, but rewarding, praising, that can be general enough even on limited info.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

^ you're right. I guess what I'm getting at is a growl or bite being down played and some sort of training being offered as a solution to someone that appears to clearly be in over their head. if sit and place can be done without conflict that's great but it's hard to read some of these situations and give credit or benefit of the doubt.

for example a dog charging and growling at guest that enter the house and having been given the opportunity to nip one or two. insert place command yes, BUT there's a lot of work in my opinion before that can be implemented.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

The solutions are so individual. There is no one-size-fits-all solution for these cases. There are also so many charlatans out there calling themselves trainers and behaviorists who take advantage of panic-stricken owners.

I've known one dog that would have gone after kids who became a different dog after he started IPO and got to start biting a sleeve--he just needed an outlet. He wasn't a fear biter, just a frustrated dog whose prey drive told him he needed to chase and catch small, loud creatures running away. He _needed _to be challenged on the field and pushed to excel. That brought out the best in this dog--going to positive OB classes bored the dog senseless, and he hated them.

OTOH, I know of a "fear biter" who was transformed via clicker training -- _totally _transformed. She's like a different dog now. She needed to trust a human, and the woman who got her made her life about never, ever giving the dog a reason to not trust her. That particular dog would have been shattered by some of the hard, aversive training techniques some people like to recommend for biting dogs (prongs, e-collars, hard corrections, whatever). She'd already been abused and beaten--more hurt was not what she needed! She was lucky the woman who got her had the experience to really look at the dog in front of her, and figure out the root cause of the lashing out--fear. So she made the rehab about helping make the fear go away. That's not an easy thing to teach. She was listening to the dog, and letting the dog tell her what it needed. The same woman knows how to train aversively with "hard" dogs, but she also knows when _not _to. The dog won the lottery with the person who got her.

Telling the difference? That can take a life time of dogs teaching you. Some people don't want to be taught by dogs because they already know it all (because they read it somewhere online or saw a video).


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Steve Strom said:


> I think talking training is ok. Telling someone how to train certain things, sit, place command, lots of things obedience related isn't diagnosing anything and obedience in general is good for any dog. Corrections can be a problem online, but rewarding, praising, that can be general enough even on limited info.


Absolutely - simple training tips are the lifeblood of this site. More specifically, just addressing the bite/nip situations and not done in such a way to scare the life out of new puppy owners UNLESS..... you know the posts - I play slap my dog in the face, sometimes punch - I think it's funny, but my parents think it's wrong (no this was not a kid but an adult man with his own house).... you know the type...

The one situation did get me down but sometimes, a little reality can benefit others. I know the remedies can be expensive and very time consuming if not corrected early on. But to just say oh well, no point because they're going to do what they want anyway.... maybe so - but at least we tried and I've seen enough success stories here to know, some do pursue more serious training and some of it does work 

I would be nice if - with these posts, that everyone try for the best possible outcome for the pup/dog and make no judgments that can kill - but instead, referrals for safety and to qualified evaluators.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Magwart said:


> The solutions are so individual. There are also so many charlatans out there calling themselves trainers and behaviorists who take advantage of panic-stricken owners.
> 
> Geez Magwart - you are taking away viable recommendations/options at every turn - What the best way for a GSD owner with this problem to proceed? At some point someone has to be trusted..... any suggestions that are sufficient to give an owner a direction to go for help or an evaluation?. A list of questions to screen trainers? - is there any type of certification for behaviorists?
> 
> I suggested to one (that has put thousands into bad training) that they actually contact the references this time, it's that important at this late date with her dog - but it doesn't sound like she did - hired the first one that showed up to break her panic on Christmas Day.... hope that works out - maybe she'll get lucky...


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

^ but, if I'm not mistaken, it just so happens that the one who broke her panic on Christmas Day comes highly recommended by one of the largest GSD rescues in Southern California... nearly all of their difficult dogs are sent to him at some point. it's not like she went thru the phone book, called 100 and accepted the first who bit.

his training might not float everyone's boat and ultimately may or may not be the best for her.... but for what the dog needs, a lot is stacked in their favor.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Great news. I looked at the website yesterday but didn't see much.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

^ he's actually not the person I had in mind from years ago but fingers crossed as he's still associated with the same rescue i'm referencing.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Fodder said:


> ^ you're right. I guess what I'm getting at is a growl or bite being down played and some sort of training being offered as a solution to someone that appears to clearly be in over their head. if sit and place can be done without conflict that's great but it's hard to read some of these situations and give credit or benefit of the doubt.
> 
> for example a dog charging and growling at guest that enter the house and having been given the opportunity to nip one or two. insert place command yes, BUT there's a lot of work in my opinion before that can be implemented.


Yes ...yes there is! I'll add use a muzzle in the future and muzzle conditioning ,if an owner "chooses" to have the dog out with "company!" 

I must have missed the "PTS" as solutions?? OP got and paid for a lot of bad advice to arrive where they are with the one dog! It was pretty much the biggest full on "meltdown" I've ever seen here?? 

But they did step back took a breath and reviewed the situation and are now proceeding forward, in hopefully a better direction and with a more solid understanding of what to look for in a trainer!

Pretty markable outcome for "their" dog at least.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Fodder said:


> ^ but, if I'm not mistaken, it just so happens that the one who broke her panic on Christmas Day comes highly recommended by one of the largest GSD rescues in Southern California... nearly all of their difficult dogs are sent to him at some point. it's not like she went thru the phone book, called 100 and accepted the first who bit.
> 
> his training might not float everyone's boat and ultimately may or may not be the best for her.... but for what the dog needs, a lot is stacked in their favor.


LOL as they say ... "I'd rather be "lucky than skilled!"


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> Magwart said:
> 
> 
> > The solutions are so individual. There are also so many charlatans out there calling themselves trainers and behaviorists who take advantage of panic-stricken owners.
> ...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Some dogs need to be euthanized. Dogs that bite children. I don't mean biting a sixteen year old nephew that walked into a house uninvited, or nipping a 6 year old as she ran around with the puppy. I am talking about biting. GSD biting children. 

It isn't easy to tell someone, even over the net that you wouldn't give the dog to anyone else, and you wouldn't keep the dog. You would do what was necessary to keep other children safe from your dog. A dog that bites (stitches, bruising, etc.) a child, unprovoked and clearly not an accident well, it is just hard, when you have or have known GSDs that allow all sorts of painful and terrifying situations without growling, snarling, biting people, to see a breed knocked down by people who want to save every dog, and people who have no business owning a box turtle, trying to manage a dog that has bitten several people. And I am not talking about any individual post. I am talking about dogs biting people, real bites, more than one person. 

At some point, you have to wonder if this is a miscarriage of socialization, training, exercise, management, experience, or does the dog have a couple of wires crossed. Because I have dogs that haven't seen anyone but myself and my nieces in a year that I can take out in public that won't bite a child that runs up and throws their arms around the dog's neck. I have dogs that have never been socialized outside my home that aren't going to bite a groomer or a vet when they shove needles in them or stuff in their ears, to do toenails. 

You have to wonder if these dogs that are biting people and in particular, children, because an argument can be made for someone over say 12 years as being a threat, but a 5 or 6 year old is no threat. If a dog has to bite a kid that size, and lots do, then that dog really, maybe doesn't need thousands of dollars of rehabilitation. Maybe that dog needs a needle. And those thousands of dollars can be used to give a home to a dog that has a great temperament that is being euthanized because there isn't space in the shelter and the dog's time is up. 

Because the dog with a good temperament is not likely to give the breed a bad name, and not likely to increase the cost for all dog owners of owning dogs. 

Dogs are supposed to lower our blood pressure, and make life more full. We get them because we want a companion, we want someone to take with us on drives, when we exercise, to family events. We don't want a dog we have to put a muzzle on before we let them see anybody. We don't want a dog running around in the back yard that we are afraid of. We don't want a dog that is likely to get us sued if one of our kids makes a mistake and lets the dog go when we have someone at the front door.

And it isn't right to take a dog when it is a few months old, keep it for a year or more, and then dump it in a shelter when we become afraid of what it might do to us, or our kids, or our bank account. We either have to find someone who is really experienced with aggressive members of our breed who is looking for a project, or we need to put the dog down. Posting it on Craigslist as "Free to Good Home" doesn't cut it.

I don't believe in Positive Only training. I don't think anyone does it. Not anyone. I think people either use negative markers, No, enough, Clap!, or people restrict treats and praise and ignore if the dog does not do the right thing. And that is right. Dogs need clear communication, and dogs can be trained with mostly positive reinforcement and not be aggressive to anyone. That is mostly what I use. The more experience I have, the better I am with timing, the more effective I am with communicating what I want, the better my dogs respond, and so on. So I don't think this is a problem with PR. They aren't the only ones that will put a dog down that is biting, seriously biting people. Read Leersberg -- or however you spell that. I think there is a bite categorizing tool on there, and they do not suggest working with all dogs that bite. 

And, I think there are conditions that make a dog too dangerous to live with. The dog is not going to be in a good place living with such a condition. We cannot solve every problem. Sometimes the kind thing to do, the responsible thing to do, the right thing to do even though it tears us up inside, is to put the dog down. -- Not the first thing we do. Certainly, get the dog assessed. But a dog that makes an attack on a child -- which is more than a bite or two, -- I wouldn't waste the money. Sorry. 

PS. Positive Reinforcement training doesn't require "cookies." I give my dogs treats if I have them for nothing. Just because. I train my dogs with praise, and it works. I think the disparaging remarks about PR training are unfair and unkind. I am sure there are people in all schools that have not been dogs' best friends, but it seems you have an axe to grind on the PR, probably didn't work to well for you at one point.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

This post was not questioning what steps need to be taken for the truly "aggressive biter" or anything on that level.

When a dog is not known to bite, but did so in a situation that "provoked" the bite or a puppy or young dog is "nippy" and obviously poorly trained they don't necessarily need to die.

When a dog or puppy is in a situation where the living conditions are extremely stressful, or it is injured and bites.... they don't necessarily need to die.

Every puppy/dog owner needs to be aware, that if their dog/puppy bites or nips and is brought to a shelter, humane society or rescue with a bite record - that dog/puppy will be euthanized. This is why proper training is so important and an owner simply can't ignore the required care and training of any dog/puppy they take into their home. 

They are not going to "better homes" with someone with "more time" or "better with dogs" when you drop them off - they are going in through the shelter gates and they are not coming back out again, ever. 

I think it's a reality that gets shoved under the rug because it's unpleasant. Yea it's unpleasant - unless the dog is mentally unbalanced or truly human aggressive - it's the ultimate training fail by an owner and that cost the dog/puppy his life.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Stonevintage said:


> This post was not questioning what steps need to be taken for the truly "aggressive biter" or anything on that level.
> 
> When a dog is not known to bite, but did so in a situation that "provoked" the bite or a puppy or young dog is "nippy" and obviously poorly trained they don't necessarily need to die.
> 
> ...


Yep. Midnite was extremely lucky that the shelter took his nipping as a young untrained dog and not aggression. I got the feeling that they seen the previous owners explanation of nipping kids and they were afraid because a third child on the way as an excuse to dump the dog. I'm glad they didn't jump to euthanize him, what a waste that would have been. His temperament is beyond good and those people were nothing more then idiots.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Stonevintage said:


> This post was not questioning what steps need to be taken for the truly "aggressive biter" or anything on that level.
> 
> When a dog is not known to bite, but did so in a situation that "provoked" the bite or a puppy or young dog is "nippy" and obviously poorly trained they don't necessarily need to die.
> 
> ...


Oh it is so heartwarming to see **** Goddard showing you some shelter dog and its new home, or the Animal Planet, but the unpleasant reality people NEED TO KNOW is that owner turn-ins generally don't live through the day, whatever their temperament or history was. 

I am not going to lose sleep over biting dogs being put down when their owners dump them at a shelter. In fact, if they are GSDs, then I hope they ARE put down, because a biting dog in a new environment, possibly without proper disclosure is likely to bite another person, and another person before that dog is put down, and the breed takes hit after hit.

Read the synopsis on the dog bite fatalities. These aren't fluffy little dogs whose first offense managed to sever an artery, and the victim, being frail, died. These are dogs that bit and bit again, and probably again. 

People divorce themselves from their dogs when they decide they need to get rid of them. Not everyone, but some of them do. At that point, they simply do not care what becomes of the dog. They BLAME the dog -- why couldn't you be good? he was retarded! He couldn't bond with me. But it makes them FEEL better thinking their dog, because it is purebred, or because it is a good looking dog, or because it is young will get another home. 

They should call pounds, pounds. There should be no doubt about what happens there. If a dog is picked up stray, it has 3-5 days or maybe even 2 weeks for an owner to claim him. Usually. If the dog is dropped by its owner, it will often be dead before they leave the parking lot. Oh, if it is a small dog, or if it is a purebred dog of popular breeds, they may send it to another shelter, let it occupy a spot on the floor, but GSDs they often don't do well in a shelter environment anyway. When people come to look at them, they will bark. If they bark it may be considered barrier aggression or territorial behavior and the dog will be labeled rescue only or just euthanized. 

People should not go around thinking that the dogs they take to shelters are going to be adopted out to a nice family that has lots of money and will love their dog. 

Someone was complaining that too many people die and their dogs end up at a shelter -- that's pretty much the ONLY reason dogs should be in shelters. 

Ah well. 

The thing is, people will go out of their way to help a dog that is broken all over or aggressive, leaving behind Uncle Louie's dog whose only fault was living longer than his owner, because that dog anyone could manage. That dog will die because he lasted too long, while these self-proclaimed dog whisperers will take the hard cases and try to prove how wonderful they are. 

Too much. I'm probably preaching to the choir anyway.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

That's why this post was not questioning what steps need to be taken for the truly "aggressive biter" or anything on that level.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

selzer said:


> Oh it is so heartwarming to see **** Goddard showing you some shelter dog and its new home, or the Animal Planet, but the unpleasant reality people NEED TO KNOW is that owner turn-ins generally don't live through the day, whatever their temperament or history was.
> 
> I am not going to lose sleep over biting dogs being put down when their owners dump them at a shelter. In fact, if they are GSDs, then I hope they ARE put down, because a biting dog in a new environment, possibly without proper disclosure is likely to bite another person, and another person before that dog is put down, and the breed takes hit after hit.
> 
> ...


The problem is that said dogs are not aggressive and a nip is considered a bite to lots of people. No one is saying anything about truly aggressive dogs, whether they are GSDs or not. The problem is people that take it out of context and don't know what they are dealing with and think that a young GSD that mouths will turn on them one day and kill them all. They are mouthy dogs, they can be nippy, they need an outlet. The problem is that people don't know how to give these dogs what they need. The problem is the people. 

Maybe it's because I have one of those GSDs that some feel should have been destroyed that makes me understand what is happening. There is no way one person here would believe that Midnite was one of those dogs if they met him. He never deserved to be in the shelter or dead. He seriously has the best temperament that you could get in a GSD--he just needed the right home and training. I'm happy that they gave him a chance, I'm happy he didn't fall apart at the shelter, I'm happy that he didn't bark and show any aggression, most of all I'm happy that I took a chance with him and I would do it all over again.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

There is a situation that I have seen several times. Not so much recently, but I'm thinking it is still a reality. 

A woman with kids wants "a guard dog" and a "companion dog" for the kids. She, for whatever reason isn't able to train the pup/dog properly or establish leadership so she rehomes the dog. 

A man takes the dog and has not one problem with it or maybe a couple of trys of acting up but the man will have none of it. And, it works.

Some of these situations, where women are not single - I wonder with a problem pup/young adolescent dog - why the primary training remains with the woman when the dog needs a firmer hand? And not as a last resort either to turn the training over to the SO - early on when it's obvious the dog needs a stronger trainer.

Shoot, when my dogs acted up and weren't recalling for me when I was married - one whistle or "Yey!" from my husband and they stopped everything and obeyed like champs! (pissed me off). 

It sounds really sexist - can't help it - but I've seen it more than a few times.
When asked, it seems these women don't turn it over because they are sure they can do a better job, yet........


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Well, I do get nervous when a dog's owner gets 37 stitches in his face and we have a family that is looking to add children soon. 

I know the guy put him in a position and shouldn't have happened, but it still makes me nervous. That isn't playing. That is guarding your resources with some seriousness. 

My brother's dog bit him in the face. Wasn't a nip. But the dog had a dislocated hip from a car accident that just happened and my brother picked her up. That is understandable. 

This dog did not bite him in the face for messing with his food, but for escalating after the growl by an alpha roll. Good way to get bit. But, is that ok? Is this a dog you want around kids? I guess there are just some things I don't understand and would be over my head with. 

I could alpha roll any of my dogs and not get bit. But if I did it with emotion, lots of angry emotion (not saying that is what happened) could one of my dogs fight for what they perceived to be their life? I still don't think my dog would bite me like that. Another dog, that would be otherwise fine, maybe?? I just don't know. 

A baby/toddler/small child is not going to alpha roll a dog. But, dogs don't think like we do. A dog who is willing to bite an owner like that, might need something extreme to challenge him that far. But a lesser pack member might be "corrected" by such a dog for a much lesser offense. And that is where we have a problem with a young dog that is willing to bite. We just don't know. And while kids should always be supervised with dogs, kids that live with dogs are not always, 100% protected from the dogs. Attacks happen fast, and while you might be aware of Johnny in the dining room doing his homework and the dog lying near him, you might just be straining the spaghetti noodles and not right there ready to yank the dog away at the exact moment. 

Nobody should live like that. I'm probably over-reacting.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Stonevintage said:


> There is a situation that I have seen several times. Not so much recently, but I'm thinking it is still a reality.
> 
> A woman with kids wants "a guard dog" and a "companion dog" for the kids. She, for whatever reason isn't able to train the pup/dog properly or establish leadership so she rehomes the dog.
> 
> ...


Sometimes spouses complement each other. Sometimes the male as seen as the push over. Sometimes the dog barks at the husband, but listens to the wife -- my parents. Mom, who is definitely weaker physically, could do anything to or with Cujo I. She had the stature, the gravitas so to speak. Where Dad was the push over, and even if the yelled or carried on with the dog, it did not get the respect from the dog that my mom just had from day one. 

They did become best of friends and lived happily ever after, or until cancer killed Cujo. But the point is, that people do have different capacities, natural or learned capacities to handle dogs. And if the wife is having issues, the wife needs to fix them, because no one should live with a dog they cannot control.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Stonevintage said:


> A man takes the dog and has not one problem with it or maybe a couple of trys of acting up *but the man will have none of it*. And, it works.


Consistency goes a LONG way in having a well trained dog...some people are better at it than others.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I believe that in some cases the male human has a natural presence that gives him the edge where it would take more concentrated effort for most women. 

LOL - these days not all men fill the same father/husband head of household roll. But it's still a rather dominant system. I know it's not right to compare human child/adolescent obedience/correction to a dog's obedience training but - it's hard not to when you see it. When my dad got mad at me - I didn't try to weasel around like I did with my mom. He was twice her size and he didn't mince words and he didn't make excuses and you did what he wanted. End of story. That's exactly how my dogs took it with my husband - when the leader of the pack was ticked at them - they ALWAYS Payed Attention.

I wonder how many hard case trainers or military men are in the dog training career vs women these days?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

An "Aggressive" dog and a "Vicious" dog are "not" the same thing! One can be "salvaged" one cannot! It's up to any given individual to "determine" if they are capable of doing so or if they need help. I try and help people not pour money and heart break down a rathole ... sorry to offend.

"Corrections" however are subject to "interpretation!" I now (also) suggest that people that don't know how to apply a proper "correction" ... use a "Pet Convincer" problem solved. Hand free teache no and delivers a consequence for "poor decisions made by the dog." 

Perhaps I should have said "Hot Dogs" instead of "Cookies??" Maybe that would have worked better for me??

JQP neither knows or cares about the Four Quadrants of OC, but if they have "serious" issues they should! Because a "Trainer" that can "actually" help them ... will use them! If I can made more people aware of that ...then I'm good with that. 

And lots of folks "automatically" assume that "correcting" a dog by not offering a "treat" changes behaviour and means, therefore, "Yank and Crank??" To wit ... "What bit the mailman again, Rafie "No treat for you ...Bad Dog!" 

If Positive only trainers can fix dogs with serious Aggression "Issues??" Then where are the videos "Show your work!" Seems simple enough to me??

Oh the "Clicker" thing ... yeah no problem it's not the tool it's how it's used!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Consistency, timing, predictability goes much farther than brute force, strength. Little old ladies, small women, are often much better than men when it comes to managing and training dogs. All the alpha-bunk is bunk. Dogs know who is a push-over and who isn't. People who are confident and no-nonsense are going to get a dog to where they need to be much better than guys trying to be Cesar. 

It isn't all about dogs trying to be dominant. It is more dogs just being dogs and knowing that what Momma says goes, what Papa says, well maybe. Or vice-versa. It depends on which one repeats themselves, fails to follow through, nags, asks, etc. and which one does the opposite, tells the dog one time, enforces it, follows through every time, praises the desired response, and doesn't stop until the desired response is achieved. It isn't about dominance, it is about discipline -- the human's self-discipline. 

Dogs do not look at a bloke and think "He'll kick my butt because of their size." Why can a little terrier walk in and act like he owns the place, and the big dogs will follow. It is because the little dog carries himself like an alpha-dog, and is more alpha than the big dog. There is alpha between dogs. I don't think it crosses specie lines. Sorry. 

The dog listens to the trainer whose communication/management/training style is effective, regardless to size/strength.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Chip18 said:


> An "Aggressive" dog and a "Vicious" dog are "not" the same thing! One can be "salvaged" one cannot! It's up to any given individual to "determine" if they are capable of doing so or if they need help. I try and help people not pour money and heart break down a rathole ... sorry to offend.
> 
> "Corrections" however are subject to "interpretation!" I now (also) suggest that people that don't know how to apply a proper "correction" ... use a "Pet Convincer" problem solved. Hand free teache no and delivers a consequence for "poor decisions made by the dog."
> 
> ...


 I don't use gadgets, hot dogs, clickers, e-collars, prong collars, head collars, etc, etc, etc. 

Whatever. 

I don't really care anymore, Chip. It just seems to me that a lot of people are using the training aids, prong and e-collars, NILIF, and dominance-crap and they are having serious problems including aggression issues. I'll stick with what I am doing. It works for me.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> I don't use gadgets, hot dogs, clickers, e-collars, prong collars, head collars, etc, etc, etc.
> 
> Whatever.
> 
> I don't really care anymore, Chip. It just seems to me that a lot of people are using the training aids, prong and e-collars, NILIF, and dominance-crap and they are having serious problems including aggression issues. I'll stick with what I am doing. It works for me.


Hmmm, I did say "no disagreement" and as you listed ...neither do I.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Well Selzer - I didn't mean to imply it's all about size and strength. When you think about the differences between (many) men and women. A man is "trained" as an adolescent in a different way. Not necessarily to be dominant or threatening or aggressive but consistent and certain (once he makes a decision). They stand their ground and there is little room for weaseling.

We women have been known to use other methods to get what what we want done. We're pretty good at it too - but you can't do this with a dog and it seems to stymie some women (all the reasoning and talk won't make that dog obey)..... That's what I was trying to move to.

Also, the pitch and tone of voice - there's a difference that has to be compensated for at times IMO. My X boss (Godloveher) looked very professional and was very professional in everything she did - but in meetings where things got heated and she opened her mouth to stress a point - Minnie Mouse came out:laugh: - nobody listened to her - or beast. At least all my dogs responded better with a firm, lower volumed command than an every day tone or the one that comes out when we praise.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Stonevintage said:


> Well Selzer - I didn't mean to imply it's all about size and strength. When you think about the differences between (many) men and women. A man is "trained" as an adolescent in a different way. Not necessarily to be dominant or threatening or aggressive but consistent and certain (once he makes a decision). They stand their ground and there is little room for weaseling.
> 
> We women have been known to use other methods to get what what we want done. We're pretty good at it too - but you can't do this with a dog and it seems to stymie some women (all the reasoning and talk won't make that dog obey)..... That's what I was trying to move to.
> 
> Also, the pitch and tone of voice - there's a difference that has to be compensated for at times IMO. My X boss (Godloveher) looked very professional and was very professional in everything she did - but in meetings where things got heated and she opened her mouth to stress a point - Minnie Mouse came out:laugh: - nobody listened to her - or beast. At least all my dogs responded better with a firm, lower volumed command than an every day tone or the one that comes out when we praise.


The voice is the best tool we have. We can be happy higher voice and ramp the dog up, or we can temper commands and praise to let the dog know we are serious/working. Or we can give them that tone that says, the shouldn't do that or to be careful. Or we can give them the YOU-WILL-DIE definitive tone that is usually the equivalent to any form of punishment. 

I think that when we are fair, give a dog a chance to get used to their surroundings, have reasonable expectations, good communication, predictability, dogs respond. It takes discipline in the human. 

When we blame the dog, what we do is limited to management and force. When we are open to the fact that something about our leadership style isn't working for the dog, we can make great leaps with most dogs. 

The dominance theory stuff bothers me a lot because if, in nature, there were as many dominant dogs that people think there are, the canine species simply wouldn't have survived. Most of these dogs are not dominant or stubborn or stupid, they are just unable to make sense of someone who is unpredictable and inconsistent and therefore untrustworthy. And when people apply the dominance crap to these dogs, they are as likely to bring out aggression in a dog that need never have been an issue. And they are far more likely to dump the dog. Mostly it is inexperienced owners, and I haven't a clue how to change that.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Well then as they say common ground! I cringe when I see people mention Dominance Theory. It usually leads people down a bad path ...hence the drag leash advice I tend to offer. 

And yes tone of voice! I saw my little APBT/Boxer mix fold like an umbrella with a harsh "SIT!" He looked up at me like he was going to cry and sat down!

Never did that again! My wife has no issue with controlling our dog's ...well Ok once Gunther (Am Band Dawg) got away from her at the Vet office, and scared the crap out of uh "everyone" when he bum rushed a lab! 

He went up to him and went "nibble nibble nibble" on the labs neck! No intend to harm, he was just rude and at that time still did not know how to play well with others but he did not try to harm the dog either! A different dog as a target however ... that could have been bad! He was still a work in progress at that time. 

I will say he most likely would not have done that under my watch, so there is that.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I agree. I agree with everything in your last post I will mark this day in history!

This one young one I have now though, l little different than my past experiences. Not a problem but very intriguing (for lack of a better word). 

In house and yard - she's down to simple voice commands with everything (she's awesome) - no special "presence hat" needed for some months. Sometimes however - I'll tell her to do something or go somewhere in a normal tone of voice and she'll hesitate. Like "go to bed" or "out of the kitchen" or "go get your ball and let's go inside".

She'll hesitate.....pushing, waiting...... and I'll say "do it" or "get er done" and she responds like a bullet wagging her tail and waiting for a big pet atta girl or a treat. I don't do those hardly anymore (treat or big praise for every single thing) but - she seems to remember and misses it. 

I think this is her way to CLEARLY show she loved the intense training and rewards and misses the INTERACTION and wants it again.... It's winter and I know she's getting bored. I think I need to get her back in to daily training with new stuff pronto. This just dawned on me yesterday - how clearly she is showing me - I feel like an idiot

This is though, some of the little stuff that new dog owners need to look for to IMO... to be able to know it's time to step it up to prevent slacking or bad behavior in their dogs and MAYBE this is another reason why there's such a high "dump rate" with the 16-24 month old young adult GSD's.... they don't notice, don't step up and things "digress" and start destroying the relationship.....?

I'm still trying to put components, suggestions together in my mind to possibly help the pup/dog from getting discarded like yesterday's trash. It it can help with just one poster that's ready to do that - I want to help say the words that will stop that thought and possibly redirect....


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> I agree. I agree with everything in your last post I will mark this day in history!


LOL Ok then.

Well if the goal "here" has actually shifted?? And pertaining to your use of "random treats" I just stumbled on this and it was yet another of the "things I did not "know" I did???":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZNDi7wqjHA

Moving on ...

The problem is "some" total "dog" newbies, in my view, make a pretty poor choice if they decide to "start" the "dog" thing with a GSD??

They do a halfway decide job for a year ... and then ...here comes trouble! All the "holes" in what they got wrong show up big time! Happened to me and I was pretty good but my dog found the two areas where I had no "experience" pack fights and Human aggression!

I figure poor management skills in the 7 month to one year zone was my problem. In retrospect, I see them "now" but I did not at the time?? Rocky got along fine with Gunther as far as I could see??

Crate training most likely would have prevented my "issues" but "Wobble" Dog and all. a Crate was not really practical. And ... down goes the first "Domino!" They were little things but they stacked up.

Happens a lot here.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

All that has been said, discussed and dissected. Tomorrow someone will decide to go online for a puppy. They will see puppies not yet born and say don't want to wait. They will see puppies for $1500 and say too much for just a dog. Then they will see puppies for $600 or less, call, and then go pick up. Its just a dog....
Its astonishing this day and age to be unaware of what you are getting into. And then have issues. This is why people get bit, breeds get banned and villified.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> LOL Ok then.
> 
> Well if the goal "here" has actually shifted?? And pertaining to your use of "random treats" I just stumbled on this and it was yet another of the "things I did not "know" I did???":
> 
> ...


Sorry Chip - I was referring to the conversation that Selzer and I had been having for the last couple of hours on the men/women issue and the training differences. That's what I was making the joke about finally agreeing with, her last post.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

cloudpump said:


> All that has been said, discussed and dissected. Tomorrow someone will decide to go online for a puppy. They will see puppies not yet born and say don't want to wait. They will see puppies for $1500 and say too much for just a dog. Then they will see puppies for $600 or less, call, and then go pick up. Its just a dog....
> Its astonishing this day and age to be unaware of what you are getting into. And then have issues. This is why people get bit, breeds get banned and villified.


This breed is not getting banned or vilified because somebody paid $600.00 for a dog instead of $1,500. Of course temperament is a factor but so is proper training and suitable environment (especially for an adoption of an older pup). The money you spend is not the end all of what it takes to end up with a good family pet..... or should we just kill em all that didn't cost 3k?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I


cloudpump said:


> All that has been said, discussed and dissected. Tomorrow someone will decide to go online for a puppy. They will see puppies not yet born and say don't want to wait. They will see puppies for $1500 and say too much for just a dog. Then they will see puppies for $600 or less, call, and then go pick up. Its just a dog....
> Its astonishing this day and age to be unaware of what you are getting into. And then have issues. This is why people get bit, breeds get banned and villified.


Wrong. I have one on got off CL($200), one from a kill shelter(Reduced to $99), and one from the side of the road(free). All wonderful dogs. I don't buy for a second that there are as many nervy, unstable dogs out there. Yes there are some, but it's very few truly "there is nothing that can be done" with these dogs. Because this breed has so many variables with energy and drive, an inexperienced person doesn't have a clue when this end up with a high drive, high energy busy GSD. How about don't get one or get your butt up and do something with the dog?


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

llombardo said:


> I
> 
> Wrong. I have one on got off CL($200), one from a kill shelter(Reduced to $99), and one from the side of the road(free). All wonderful dogs. I don't buy for a second that there are as many nervy, unstable dogs out there. Yes there are some, but it's very few truly "there is nothing that can be done" with these dogs. Because this breed has so many variables with energy and drive, an inexperienced person doesn't have a clue when this end up with a high drive, high energy busy GSD. How about don't get one or get your butt up and do something with the dog?


Ha, let me clarify what I was trying to say. Not the cheaper dog being the issue. It's the person that doesn't want to invest the time or effort because they just wanted a dog. To them it's just a dog. An animal to be semi trained. That's why I put the point at the end of my post saying about not knowing what they could be getting into because they don't research. And then have issues.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

cloudpump said:


> ...
> Its astonishing this day and age to be unaware of what you are getting into. And then have issues. This is why people get bit, breeds get banned and villified.


Yes, culpability is becoming a thing of the past......


SuperG


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

I think their is blame enough to go around. 

Yes, certainly with backyard breeders, although others can address this better than me since I did not get either of my dogs through a breeder. 

But with adoptions, many people don't do any research, don't ask any questions and have an unrealistic view of their own capabilities. Never had a dog before? Get a GSD. Never had a GSD? Get a former police dog or a military dog. Or how about a nice wolf hybrid? It will look so picturesque posing on a Christmas card beside our three young children. And then wonder why it fails.

But the blame also seems to fall with the system. (I love Magwart's post, they are always so interesting.) If ordinary people should know better than to adopt a dog that is way outside their league, then what can be said about a system that allows and even encourages it to make their numbers? That is more concerned about being able to boast that they have no dogs waiting to be adopted than whether a placement is at all appropriate?

I did some research on the breed, although probably not as much as I should have. I asked a lot of questions and was very specific about the kind of dog I was looking for, but I also had a rescue that was honest with me and told me the truth about Newlie. What if, instead of Newlie, they had given me a full gown 80 pound, snarling, biting monster. I had a severely disabled husband and young children coming in and out of my backyard. So, the placement would have failed and whose fault would that have been?


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Responsibility and ability both have to be there. I suppose places could start running background checks and credit reports before they hand a pup to a person..... maybe personality tests. This is all done for employment purposes now. 

I am not sure how we can help here. I don't see much to try to dissuade anyone from getting a GSD pup when they post here. Lots of encouragement with few questions asked. Have to be away from home 9-12 hours per day hey, no problem! Live in an apt or condo, hey, no problem! Crate your dog all day year in and year out, that's fine! 

Try to tell a newbie that it's not a good environment to bring a pup into and you'll get jumped on..... and some of those same people are the one's that are the harshest with the newbies when they post that it's not working out......

There's a difference between promoting the popularity of the breed and communicating what's best for the dog....


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> Responsibility and ability both have to be there. *I suppose places could start running background checks and credit reports* before they hand a pup to a person..... maybe personality tests. This is all done for employment purposes now.


Interestingly, some of them do. Or pretty darn close. One organization asked for a copy of two prior years' tax return statements from me. I wasn't comfortable handing this information over - which had nothing to do with a dog - it was because my husband and I are not comfortable with such private information floating around. Our state has 100% public (online) access to circuit court records, so you can find pretty much anything you seek, even down to speeding tickets. Heck, we were smart enough to figure this out when we were kids and we used to look up each other's parents because we thought it was funny. 

I think there are many people out there with flawless credit and zero run-ins with the law that would make pretty awful, miserable owners of GSDs.

I think if we add one item to your first sentence, I would agree with: 

_"Responsibility, ability, *and desire* all have to be there."_ 

If someone wants to learn how to train dogs, _really_ wants to learn, they will seek out resources and mentors, and they can succeed. Regardless of socioeconomic status. Even the most elite and successful trainers had a "first dog", at some point.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Not trying to bring Pit Bulls into this thread. What I am saying that the perceptions and misconceptions are being applied to all breeds of dogs. There was a day when you did not see GSDs frolicking with newborn babies, or any other breed, plain old common sense, but other breed owners have something to prove and now the internet is infested with pictures of all breeds with newborn children.



Then there are posts I see like this young German Shepherd up for adoption on Rescue me.

Beautiful Shepherd isn't she? lol


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Stonevintage said:


> Responsibility and ability both have to be there. I suppose places could start running background checks and credit reports before they hand a pup to a person..... maybe personality tests. This is all done for employment purposes now.
> 
> I am not sure how we can help here. I don't see much to try to dissuade anyone from getting a GSD pup when they post here. Lots of encouragement with few questions asked. Have to be away from home 9-12 hours per day hey, no problem! Live in an apt or condo, hey, no problem! Crate your dog all day year in and year out, that's fine!
> 
> ...


There is nothing wrong with a GSD in an apartment--in fact it can be better for the dog because you have no choice but to walk it. I had 4 dogs in an apartment(2 were GSDs) without any issues. There is nothing wrong with crate training if done right--its a safety measure for some dogs. I do prefer to have the end goal there freedom and sometimes that can take two years, but in the end the dog is safe and happy. People here always suggest lots of exercise and someone coming in during the day to take a younger pup out. No one would have dogs because they work full time--that's not reality, people have to work. It matters what is done with the dog when you are home. Breeders and rescues are selective. Some shelters are to, but not all. The only reason I did not have a home check with Midnite was because Robyn impressed them and I had GSD experience. There is no way that all GSDs can go into rescue or foster, because there are just to many. There are lots that come from breeders that end up there too. Breeders and rescues should be able to microchip their dogs and be contacted if said dog ends up at a shelter, then they can claim them legally.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

WIBackpacker said:


> Interestingly, some of them do. Or pretty darn close. *One organization asked for a copy of two prior years' tax return statements from me.* I wasn't comfortable handing this information over - which had nothing to do with a dog - it was because my husband and I are not comfortable with such private information floating around. Our state has 100% public (online) access to circuit court records, so you can find pretty much anything you seek, even down to speeding tickets. Heck, we were smart enough to figure this out when we were kids and we used to look up each other's parents because we thought it was funny.
> 
> I think there are many people out there with flawless credit and zero run-ins with the law that would make pretty awful, miserable owners of GSDs.
> 
> ...


Our local high kill shelter wants proof that you own your home to adopt a cat. Yep, you have to produce the title to your house.



shepherdmom said:


> Then there are posts I see like this young German Shepherd up for adoption on Rescue me.
> 
> Beautiful Shepherd isn't she? lol


Anything to force an adoption that probably would not have taken place. Yes, too many unadoptable dogs deliberately mislabeled to fool the public.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> Sorry Chip - I was referring to the conversation that Selzer and I had been having for the last couple of hours on the men/women issue and the training differences. That's what I was making the joke about finally agreeing with, her last post.


Aww my mistake ... Ok, back to never agreeing with you then.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> Responsibility and ability both have to be there. I suppose places could start running background checks and credit reports before they hand a pup to a person..... maybe personality tests. This is all done for employment purposes now.
> 
> I am not sure how we can help here. I don't see much to try to dissuade anyone from getting a GSD pup when they post here. Lots of encouragement with few questions asked. Have to be away from home 9-12 hours per day hey, no problem! Live in an apt or condo, hey, no problem! Crate your dog all day year in and year out, that's fine!
> 
> ...


By and large I would tend to think?? That the majority or is it the few posters that come here first and actually listen to the "Pro's" and "Con's" don't tend to be the one with "issues??"

The vast majority of "freak out" situations are in the "aggression" forum and those people already have "paws on the ground" as it were.

I personally managed to "mix" it up as it were, a combination of a decade working with "real" dogs ...( and yes Boxers are real dogs )) and "zero" research on a different breed! Just a big furry dog with a pointy face (OS WL GSD) no biggie, it's just "a" dog .... school of hard knocks .... here we come! :crazy:

But .. it worked out for me, so my taken away was well if I can do vie the "internet so can others. But yes having some experience with "dogs" does at least give one a basic understanding of "training" a dog.

I would not want to start with an "untrained" dog of "questionable background" and then there is the whole screwing up with a puppy, thing??

Oh well, lots of ways to get it wrong, I guess??


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

shepherdmom said:


> Then there are posts I see like this young German Shepherd up for adoption on Rescue me.
> 
> Beautiful Shepherd isn't she? lol


LOL ... "mutant freak" GSD??


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Here's a positive example to start the New Year off with!  I think many people who are doing well with their dogs tend not to post as much. 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/pictures-pictures-pictures/607874-been-long-time-coming.html


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Here's a positive example to start the New Year off with!  I think many people who are doing well with their dogs tend not to post as much.
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/pictures-pictures-pictures/607874-been-long-time-coming.html


It's true. I only ask questions if I'm having a problem or I'm curious about something. I spend most of my time here trying to help other people.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

LuvShepherds said:


> It's true. I only ask questions if I'm having a problem or I'm curious about something. I spend most of my time here trying to help other people.


I wasn't going to go there because I'm certainly not perfect, but I don't post much about my dogs here either. 

As for helping, it's hard to do on the internet. I tend to only step in if I have specific knowledge that may help. 

The internet is great for specific things like supplements for joints, or getting emotional support when you have lost a beloved dog, or suggestions for supplements that help joints, or like in my case figuring out how to safely bike with a dog. For that I think we can help on the internet.

A lot of non-specific training problems, especially those that involve aggression, no.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

As an aside, something I've pondered, why don't we post more positive things?

The reasons I don't are as follows: 

1) I don't want to come off as a know it all, internet expert because I know I'm not perfect, nor are my dogs. 

2) On the rare couple of occasions I posted something positive about my dogs it was pretty much ignored. I don't take this personally because it seems to be a pattern. "HELP Dog ripped the face off mailman what do I do!!!!" Is more interesting.   

I posted a cute video of my rescue Smitty doing his best imitation of Bailiff's Zebu sit/stand/down drill (and it was just an imitation LOL! not as precise as Zebu for sure), asked others to do same, to share positives, nothing. I am SO boring.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I posted a cute video of my rescue Smitty doing his best imitation of Bailiff's Zebu sit/stand/down drill (and it was just an imitation LOL! not as precise as Zebu for sure), asked others to do same, to share positives, nothing. I am SO boring.


Resurrect it for the New Year. Something with Stihl?


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> As an aside, something I've pondered, why don't we post more positive things?
> 
> The reasons I don't are as follows:
> 
> ...


I actually made a video of Samson's puppy push ups but couldn't figure out how to post it.I thought it was a fun thread


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I finally found a basic explanation of the main types of dog behavior professionals. If you do have a problem with your dog nipping/biting and are looking for help, this article will give you the basics on their training and background. This type of professional should be able to provide you with an evaluation you can trust. Please have your dog evaluated prior to surrender. There may be a solution to the problem. 

Attached is a basic explanation of credentials for animal behaviorists. More details and different alternatives can be on the ASPCA website.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I have to share this, because I'm proud of my guys. Yesterday I had to get my furnace replaced. I put Midnite and Robyn in the bathroom with a small gate and Apollo went upstairs. Thd first guy was there for over an hour, not a peep out of the dogs. As soon as he left I looked and Midnite was out of the bathroom(jumped gate), but didn't do so the whole time the guy was there. Second crew came out, same set up but Apollo with me on the couch. Again not a peep, they walked in and out, banged for four hours. No barking, lunging or aggressive behavior, nice calm dogs just watching(Midnite did throw his ball over the gate 2x with the hopes I would let him get it). I thought of this thread and I was even prouder of my guys(not just the GSDs either, everyone one of them were quiet and not an issue). Maybe I just can't comprehend dogs being any other way? I always train and pretty hard for the first year, but the results are amazing--if you put the time in


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

You can't fix aggression issues vie the "internet???" That is news to me???There are "literally" thousands of people across the globe that would be surprised to know that also! Not "everyone" that has "serious" issues goes to a "Dog Forum" to find solutions. I suppose they are much like myself and "we" weren't looking for a "debate." We looked for people "online" that dealt with dogs with "serious" issues. And many of them apparently included in there search "Trainers" that showed their work!" 

As I say "some people" can't fix there dog over the "internet" but "some people" can." I like to serve as a "crap filter" for them. 

I did it and I'm not that special. And I know "they" can because I have heard from some of them on here and "Boxerforum" and they have said to me "Thank You for helping." 

When I had serious "serious" big time "I will hurt you or someone else if you screw this up issues" I went to the "internet" also looking for solutions. The only thing I did different then some?? Was I did not bother with "crap" advice from uh ... the other camp.

My dog showed me clearly that "treat" or "no treat" was not going to cut it. So I looked for trainers that 
1) Deal "effectively" with dogs with "serious freaking issues"
2) Trainers that "show there work."

And "despite" what people chose to believe based on my style of writing?? I did it "Force free" and with the use of the word "NO." I taught my dog to "make better choices!"

David Trainer for one helped me out with my last remaining "issue." Rocky would start to get "agitated" in the presence of little dogs barking in his face. He would start to hobby horse and prance in place .. ticked me off! But ... what to do?? A leash pop or heel tap or finger pokes were not options for "me" because of Rocky's Wobblers?? 

Most likely I administered the leash pop with a bit less vigor than "David" suggested but I got my point across ... "you will not act a fool!" My reply is post 50 ..my result "worked out fine, problem "solved" just like that ... "No treat involved."

David's advise to me is here:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5120529-post48.html

.


Jeff Gellman, Sean O'Shea and Tythedogguy, and Gary Wilkes( I do have trouble with the halti thing with him but ...whatever) all work with dogs with serious "aggression" issues and they all "show there work" they don't do open forums because they have a pretty low threshold for "crap!" But if people are "respectful" they "all" have FB pages and "anyone" with questions about there work that "I" post can go stright to the source and *"ask them."*

And yeah I only post to help others, my "problems" were solved years ago, and admittedly ... by and large "I" tend to consider "Rocky" having saved me "uh" 2.5 times from charging strays as pretty routine. We are unclear on the third encounter, (hence .5) he wanted a piece of that dog and I was "ticked" at Rocky because ,off leash he failed to stay and wanted to engage, so I had to block him! Roc ticked me off, I turned my back on the charging Pit. Pit decided to make a better choice because "apparently" he decided "we" were crazy and disappeared??  

Anyway that aside ...I'd have to post stuff like ...day 1,200 of life with Rocky formly HA, OS WL GSD with High Rank Drive, we went for a walk encountered people nothing happened.

Day 1300 went to a "Dog Park" people took off when they saw us pull in no dogs there ...nothing happened. 

Day 13330 talked to folks with a seriously "insane scary looking dog aggressive Boxer behind a fence" a first for me!!! (Insane,aggressive, Boxer???) I was stunned spoke to owners "Rocky" was unimpressed, no reaction from him at all. (Thanks David! ) Nothing happened.

So yeah well maybe a couple of exceptions but by and large these days "Rocky" is just a dog *"because of what I learned on the internet" *If I can do it so can others, I'm not that special.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Steve Strom said:


> Resurrect it for the New Year. Something with Stihl?


I notice you have some nice videos too. 

I've got some of Stihl on FB. However I limit the audience for a couple of reasons. 

One - he's a SL so that's going to be a knock on him here. People either stick up for WLs or BYB dogs before they will SL (American and German) on this site.

Two - my handling skills are below par for IPO big time. It is much harder then pet OB, as you and I have discussed. So I do not want my crappy training to reflect poorly on my dog before an audience that won't be able to clearly see that I'm the problem, not my dog. Especially at this foundation level I'm at. I agonize that I'm holding my dog back actually.

Three - it's boring, apparently.  

I appreciate the spirit of your suggestion though, thank you.

Happy New Year!!


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

And happy New Year to you too Chip!!!


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Chip, the problem is not all dogs have the kind of issue your dog had behind the biting. What worked for your dog could be _exactly wrong _for a different dog. What works for a different dog could have been _exactly wrong_ for your dog. 

Generalizing your dog to "all dogs that bite" has the potential to cause more problems, since there are a lot of different reasons dogs bite -- and at least one of them is fear and past abuse. I really worry that offering one-size-fits all suggestions for every dog is going to screw up a subset of dogs even more. It's so hard to know what's going to work until the dog is in front of you. Maybe the one common thread in helping all of them is a committed, consistent, fair, perceptive, leader of an owner, dedicated to following through. Training that creates good leadership in the person (not the same as dominance) helps all dogs. Maybe that suggests these threads ought to be focusing more on the people than the dogs?


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

That's where the animal behaviorist comes in. I would think that any trainer would welcome a chance to work with a credentialed behaviorist on a bite/nip case. It would undoubtedly be pricey but a simple evaluation would not.

If I were an owner of a dog with this type of problem, I would certainly want an evaluation done prior to selecting any kind of training method or trainer. The right tool for the job and there is a toolbox full to choose from.......


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Magwart said:


> Chip, the problem is not all dogs have the kind of issue your dog had behind the biting. What worked for your dog could be _exactly wrong _for a different dog. What works for a different dog could have been _exactly wrong_ for your dog.
> 
> Generalizing your dog to "all dogs that bite" has the potential to cause more problems, since there are a lot of different reasons dogs bite -- and at least one of them is fear and past abuse. I really worry that offering one-size-fits all suggestions for every dog is going to screw up a subset of dogs even more.


I think what I'm seeing is that lots of these dogs are diagnosed over the Internet as younger dogs. Advice is given, but if the owner was reading the dog wrong, the wrong advice was given and the mess began. I don't think that the training is the same for different issues and if wrong training is done it makes it worse, which I'm starting to see a pattern. Can we really say that a 6 month old is fear aggressive instead of truly aggressive because that is what is believed and no 6 month old can be aggressive or territorial? Do we know what lines or where that dog came from to make that assumption? Fear and aggression would be handled completely different IMO. I havd 3 GSDs and I can see thst Apollo has the more aggressive behavior or tendency to be aggressive out of all of them(and it's not bad but different then the other two) There is no fear there, but everyone would assume so. I read some of the posts and some I can relate too and I have dealt with, but not any of the responses are the way I went and it worked out well for me. I want to scream no that's wrong, but I just mind my own business and hope for the best. I will also say this is my first time dealing with an intact dog and based on my experience I can see the difference. It has nothing to do with training because I'm on top of that, I'll make my final decision once he is fixed. Let's just say there is a reason that military and police dogs are kept intact.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Stonevintage said:


> That's where the animal behaviorist comes in. I would think that any trainer would welcome a chance to work with a credentialed behaviorist on a bite/nip case. It would undoubtedly be pricey but a simple evaluation would not.
> 
> If I were an owner of a dog with this type of problem, I would certainly want an evaluation done prior to selecting any kind of training method or trainer. The right tool for the job and there is a toolbox full to choose from.......


Most people are not going to pay for a behaviorist to evaluate the dog, that can be super expensive.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I agree with this SV - vetting trainers. That is good advice. Maybe not with a behaviorist though.

On choosing a trainer, I'll flesh out some of my personal criteria.

Where I draw the line is trainers who are not balanced and willing to adjust to the dog before them.

I've tried to help several people find trainers recently (some may not know this but I work with dogs, not a trainer though).

If I read the credentials and the trainer lacks or does the following I do not recommend them:

1) They do not participate in any dog sports or train for work. This is not limited to bite sports btw. If the person wants a companion dog, then I recommend a trainer that is titling dogs in rally, OB or other venues of that nature. A trainer that can not only title his/her dog but also clients dogs is the sign of trainer who can communicate with dogs and humans. 

2) If the trainer ascribes to extreme zero sum training ideology. This includes trainers who demonize the use of prong or e.collars without any discretion or experience. Conversely trainers who would slap a prong collar on *each and every* 3 month old puppy that comes into the class, regardless. Though those are fairly rare. 

3) Generally some experience with German Shepherds is important too. I've found that some trainers who aren't used to some of the drives shepherds bring to the table (guarding/protection) will default to blaming dog/handler due to *their* lack of experience. Not always but preference is for some solid GSD experience if possible. Which is why I like trainers with IPO experience, they *usually* understand/read GSDs better.


I know of a local trainer personally who started out as an ABC graduate cookie pusher. She later found her way to some bite sport trainers and was willing to change and adapt. Now she's mostly positive but will use other tools as needed. I very much respect her for that.

Another trainer I've known for ten years is locked down anti-prong and I know of a dog, personally, that was euth'd based partly on her suggestion because they didn't want to use a prong or e collar. 

I've had a hard time helping people find balanced trainers in some areas. Mostly it's trainers who can't get off the PO franchise for various reasons.




Stonevintage said:


> That's where the animal behaviorist comes in. I would think that any trainer would welcome a chance to work with a credentialed behaviorist on a bite/nip case. It would undoubtedly be pricey but a simple evaluation would not.
> 
> If I were an owner of a dog with this type of problem, I would certainly want an evaluation done prior to selecting any kind of training method or trainer. The right tool for the job and there is a toolbox full to choose from.......


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

llombardo said:


> Most people are not going to pay for a behaviorist to evaluate the dog, that can be super expensive.


How much is it? Is it more than "doggie boot camp" or trainer hopping? It's up to the individual on how much he wants to spend. But, I think we should be at least putting the suggestion out to people who come here rather than what they're getting now. As you (and many others) said, a wrong method it can cause problems.

People suggest here for small injuries/ailments but most refer to a vet for the more serious or unknown stuff. IMO for a bite/nip a referral to a behaviorist for an evaluation is equivalent to a referral to a vet and both are equally important.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Stonevintage said:


> How much is it? Is it more than "doggie boot camp" or trainer hopping? It's up to the individual on how much he wants to spend. But, I think we should be at least putting the suggestion out to people who come here rather than what they're getting now. As you (and many others) said, a wrong method it can cause problems.
> 
> People suggest here for small injuries/ailments but most refer to a vet for the more serious or unknown stuff. IMO for a bite/nip a referral to a behaviorist for an evaluation is equivalent to a referral to a vet and both are equally important.


A behaviorist can be a few hundred dollars a pop. Better route then boot camp? Probably. Boot camp is nothing more then someone else training your dog, which I do not agree with at all. Do you know why people trainer hop? They probably don't like what they are being told and they come here and someone disagrees with the method and completely confused them. There has to be a point where these people can think on their own because they know their dogs, people on the Internet do not.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> The internet is great for specific things like........(but), especially those that involve aggression, no.


I don't think this is true at all. It is also unclear, why not just say, "Dog aggression can't be fixed via the Internet."

Aggression is the thing that people are afraid of and so they think that is hard to fix but it is not. 

Basically if things aren't nipped in the bud then they can escalate and thus the dog gets aggressive. 

So many theories on a dogs upbringing can help to stop aggression from arising

Good leash work and place command can actually help stop future aggression. 

Learning how to correct a dog can help with aggression escalation.

The many concepts on dog behavior and training, behavior modification on the Internet will help with aggression.

Skypeing a good trainer can help with aggression.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Here's the thing with behaviorists. They're aren't many of them. 

There are maybe 70 or so credentialed DVMs in the U.S. who are members of the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists -- that's 70 in the _whole _country. That's the _entire membership_ of the ACVB. I would expect them to charge $200 or so for an initial consult. I've heard of one charging $400. Here's a link to the directory:

http://www.dacvb.org/resources/for-the-public/

Beyond the ACVB, there's no national organization that licenses, certifies, or oversees people who call themselves "behaviorists." The ACVB vet behaviorists are the specialists who can _really_ recognize any medical component and think through the entire dog beyond just behavioral expressions. There just aren't many of them. My state has a major vet school...but not a single one of these specialists, and no residents in training in that specialty either. I _wish _we did.

Behaviorists with any other credential have to be scrutinized carefully. There are tons of online credentialing programs--most are for profit (a few thousand bucks). University of Washington has an online non-profit series of classes that costs what regular university classes cost. How good are the programs? I just don't know.

I know someone who went through one of those for-profit programs, and he's knowledgeable about (some) dogs, especially little dogs, but not someone I'd ask to fix a problem in a GSD. I don't think he'd even try, as it's so far out of his expertise. I can't generalize him to all those programs though because I honestly don't know. Some may be better, but online training is still...online training.

I think getting references for people who call themselves behaviorists is _very _ important if they aren't ACVB vet behaviorists. If they have access to an ACVB specialist, that's the "gold standard" for behavior.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

MadLab said:


> I don't think this is true at all. It is also unclear, why not just say, "Dog aggression can't be fixed via the Internet."
> 
> Aggression is the thing that people are afraid of and so they think that is hard to fix but it is not.
> 
> ...


The problem is that people go right to aggression for everything. We do not know if it's aggression, but we give advice like it is--that is the problem.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

This. Also it's hard to tell what type of aggression. Is it genetic, environmental, fear, guarding. This cannot be determined over the internet. 

Further, anyone who gives bad advice over the internet and the dog goes on to bite others (people or dogs) *is* partly responsible.



llombardo said:


> The problem is that people go right to aggression for everything. We do not know if it's aggression, but we give advice like it is--that is the problem.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> So many theories on a dogs upbringing can help to stop aggression from arising


I guess you should read before you quote it


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> Further, anyone who gives bad advice over the internet and the dog goes on to bite others (people or dogs) *is* partly responsible.


This is your opinion. At least you edited it to say 'partly responsible' rather than responsible. 

Here's my opinion, People who post are not at all responsible for a dogs behavior and or an owners lack of ability to control there dog. The handler is totally responsible at all times and nobody can go saying "*The internet told me to do i*t". 

I hope and trust people with basic levels of comprehension can realize they need to think about the options before doing something.

People also need to realize this is an Internet forum, where you'll get many differing opinions. I think some people take it too seriously.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I didn't edit to say 'partly'. I edited it to bold the word, *is*. Now I edit to underline it as well.




MadLab said:


> This is your opinion. At least you edited it to say 'partly responsible' rather than responsible.
> 
> Here's my opinion, People who post are not at all responsible for a dogs behavior and or an owners lack of ability to control there dog. The handler is totally responsible at all times and nobody can go saying "*The internet told me to do i*t".
> 
> ...


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> Also it's hard to tell what type of aggression. Is it genetic, environmental, fear, guarding. This cannot be determined over the internet.


Depends on the information provided. If there is video of a behavior or a good explanation then the cause of the aggression can be determined.

If people want to discover something about there dogs behaviors and are persistent then they can get answers/ theories/ techniques which will help them. 

Need help training your dog? Learn all the best methods!

This web site contains a lot on info from an x military handler/trainer with 30 years experience. I think if people read it all then they will be prepared to deal with a lot of scenarios.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

MadLab said:


> I hope and trust people with basic levels of comprehension can realize they need to think about the options before doing something.
> 
> People also need to realize this is an Internet forum, where you'll get many differing opinions. I think some people take it too seriously.


This, the whole reason I started this thread. We've had some pretty direct adverse results from recommendations given here on how to deal with this problem recently. They apparently leave the "need to think about the options" at the door and do what sounds good to them from someone at random who posts an unqualified opinion here. 

My simple idea, is that we build in disclaimers and referrals into our opinions and suggestions when a bite/nip thread is posted. I think that is our responsibility and yes, it does end there.... I wonder if a list could be compiled from the breeders/trainers/individuals that have contact information on qualified individuals?

After learning what I have here (thank you Magwart)... I would not recommend a trainer for this problem (bite) unless their experience or credentials could be checked out. Specific experience with the breed, preferred. 

I just really can't see anything to argue about here. Magwort has given some great information and let us see what these owners are up against when someone here refers them to a trainer to "fix" this problem....


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> My simple idea, is that we build in disclaimers and referrals into our opinions and suggestions when a bite/nip thread is posted.


Wouldn't that be taking it too seriously.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

MadLab said:


> Wouldn't that be taking it too seriously.


Sometimes it's a matter of life or death for a dog, so it should be taken more seriously.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

MadLab said:


> Wouldn't that be taking it too seriously.


you have to have a basic level of comprehension on the topic to know how serious it is....


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

See i take dog behavior very seriously and would encourage people to treat it likewise.

Taking peoples opinions seriously is another thing. An opinion is what it is. 

But people freely expressing their opinions should be encouraged. Everybody learns through their experience and no body is perfect or has the perfect perspective to know everything. 

Out of 10 peoples advice one might resonant with someone in a difficult situation with their dog. For people to be afraid to post because they might be wrong is not productive imo. Looking at things from different perspectives will help examine any problem, and so why forums are invaluable. People don't agree. That helps to consider other points of view and options.

It might help to link every aggression issue to a recognized trainer like Tyler Muto as i generally do. His videos will help people fix their dogs. As will many other trainers on the net.


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

llombardo said:


> Most people are not going to pay for a behaviorist to evaluate the dog, that can be super expensive.


I paid for one--a behaviorist with all the credentials and she was good at relational information. She helped Simon and myself connect better and I learned to read him better. She was not helpful with training, in that he needed corrections. She admitted he was a handful. And he is dog reactive.

A Schutzhund training director said Simon was no ***** cat--that he needed to be clearly shown what he could and could not do. Watching experienced IPO handlers correct him was the best help I got.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

MadLab said:


> See i take dog behavior very seriously and would encourage people to treat it likewise.
> 
> Taking peoples opinions seriously is another thing. An opinion is what it is.
> 
> ...


And you are including someone who's dog has bitten multiple people in this referral to trainers on the net? That's what we are talking about....


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Moriah said:


> I paid for one--a behaviorist with all the credentials and she was good at relational information. She helped Simon and myself connect better and I learned to read him better. She was not helpful with training, in that he needed corrections. She admitted he was a handful. And he is dog reactive.
> 
> A Schutzhund training director said Simon was no ***** cat--that he needed to be clearly shown what he could and could not do. Watching experienced IPO handlers correct him was the best help I got.


I sounds as though a behaviorist would have better success working with a qualified trainer than an unknowledgable individual. The trainer is the one that needs the information to shape a program that will work for that particular dog.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Magwart said:


> Chip, the problem is not all dogs have the kind of issue your dog had behind the biting. What worked for your dog could be _exactly wrong _for a different dog. What works for a different dog could have been _exactly wrong_ for your dog.
> 
> Generalizing your dog to "all dogs that bite" has the potential to cause more problems, since there are a lot of different reasons dogs bite -- and at least one of them is fear and past abuse. I really worry that offering one-size-fits all suggestions for every dog is going to screw up a subset of dogs even more. It's so hard to know what's going to work until the dog is in front of you. Maybe the one common thread in helping all of them is a committed, consistent, fair, perceptive, leader of an owner, dedicated to following through. Training that creates good leadership in the person (not the same as dominance) helps all dogs. Maybe that suggests these threads ought to be focusing more on the people than the dogs?


Aww, yes my "one" badly behaved aggressive dog"... what did I learn?? That well, nope others with a "problem dog" just can't do because you know everybody is an Expert on the internet (not me of course) so I cite them.

Lesson one use a drag leash, so you *"don't have to lay hands on a dog"*wonder how that could have helped??

"Sit on the Dog"
"The Place Command"
"Who Walks my Puppy or Dog" I work with rescues, I don't know those dogs?? I keep people and other dogs out of there face as a matter of course, works out just fine. Lesson from "Rocky." And if you have a dog that may bite?? Use a freaking muzzle, helps both the dog and owner to relax. ( ... Rocky yet again.) 

Oh and use a "Pet Convincer" if you struggle with corrections. (not my thing "PC" but it seems to work for others) oh and tell your dog "NO" ... again the "PC" is helpful for "some" in getting that point across.

And yeah use some kind of "common sense." Nothing radical in any of that as far as I can discern?? 

And I cite sources, if people have question, they can go to FB and "ask the 
author themselves."

But hey that stuff only works on "my lone dog" and well yeah "every" dog I work with."

Most likely they all have been "aberrations" because I have had "zero" issues, with any of them?? And I use a SLL and sigh ... no "yank and Crank" and no discussions, I keep my mouth shut and we get on with business. Yep "nothing to be learned there??

All "stuff" that is conflict free, by the way but hey "one problem dog and all" only works for him I guess?? Maybe I need to get busy on FB and start telling the "Pro's" they and the people they help with "aggressive dogs, daily" over the internet are all wrong. 

Oh gezz I hope I won't have to start "PMing" people and telling them "sorry untrain your dog" with advice pointed out to you by me! That would suck!


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

This is what is so frustrating. I don't think that anyone is arguing the ability to teach basic commands from simple training video's on the internet. That however is not what we are talking about here - yet it gets lumped in and people take it personally and get offended. 

We know that some people think that any problem can be simply resolved and give advise accordingly. That is why I tried to separate out only the worst of training gone wrong cases - dogs with multiple bites to people who are in jeopardy of being killed.

Still - arguments..... I was hoping that this post would be useful to those experiencing this problem down the road. But, it becomes just another tower of babel to the novice that is easily confused and already frustrated when they get here..... 

Really - why should anyone spend a dime on training or an evaluation when this problem can so simply solved over the internet? Is that really the message that should be sent? That's not even rational thinking....


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> Still - arguments..... I was hoping that this post would be useful to those experiencing this problem down the road. But, it becomes just another tower of babel to the novice that is easily confused and already frustrated when they get here.....
> 
> Really - why should anyone spend a dime on training or an evaluation when this problem can so simply solved over the internet? Is that really the message that should be sent? That's not even rational thinking....


I won't say a word.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Dude, you're picking and choosing. You also linked to David suggesting wacking a dog in the face with a leash. THAT with a fearful dog could make things a whole lot worse. David has the experience to know the dogs he's working with, and he works with dogs as a group that may be harder than some pet dogs. 

Wack a truly fearful dog in the face with a leash? It will never trust you. Never! That's the kind of advice that could screw up the wrong dog -- even though it may work for some other dog.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

There is such a thing as a hard fearful dog


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

MadLab said:


> There is such a thing as a hard fearful dog


Oh yeah. Those require licensed Doggie psychologists, massage therapists, behaviorists, chiropractic, holistic vets, and about ten hours of exercise a day.

Really. You can't monitor advise, opinions or referrals on a forum.

There is as much crap on here as there is good advice. People have to figure out who they choose to listen to.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Jack's Dad said:


> Oh yeah. Those require licensed Doggie psychologists, massage therapists, behaviorists, chiropractic, holistic vets, and about ten hours of exercise a day.
> 
> Really. You can't monitor advise, opinions or referrals on a forum.
> 
> There is as much crap on here as there is good advice. People have to figure out who they choose to listen to.


You're absolutely right. Why even bother? I'm done with it.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I've only read this one page of this thread so can only respond to these comments.



Jack's Dad said:


> Really. You can't monitor advise, opinions or referrals on a forum.
> 
> There is as much crap on here as there is good advice. * People have to figure out who they choose to listen to*.


Here's the problem as I see it. First, we no longer live in a thinking society. We think all the answers are at the other end of the keyboard. Can't beat common sense into a rock.

Nothing. NOTHING beats a hands on trainer. NOTHING. Aggression issues should be referred to a trainer. Not one that another person found in a google search but from people with first hand knowledge of them. Certainly nobody should be telling these people that they don't even need a trainer because that person never needed one. You don't know what the aggression trigger is!!

The more I'm around dogs, the less I know. There are so many nuances to behavior. Genetics, environment, health, training, unfair corrections. I know dogs that live for their owners but will not take an unfair correction from them. Other dogs that will get anxious about an external noise and turn on other dogs or people. Each a case of aggression with nothing similar.

There was a study done once on whether people will believe anything if it comes from a reputable source. Yes. They do. Just look at what happens in our media today. Same holds true here. A person makes a long, word smithy, post with confidence and people looking for help think it's true. I understand the desire to help people. But sometimes the best advice is none.

And ain't nothin' gonna change any of it. People need to be responsible for their own actions and decisions.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Magwart said:


> Dude, you're picking and choosing. You also linked to David suggesting wacking a dog in the face with a leash. THAT with a fearful dog could make things a whole lot worse. David has the experience to know the dogs he's working with, and he works with dogs as a group that may be harder than some pet dogs.
> 
> Wack a truly fearful dog in the face with a leash? It will never trust you. Never! That's the kind of advice that could screw up the wrong dog -- even though it may work for some other dog.


 Aww the "straw man" that's what you saw first that was 

Please point out where I ever advised someone whack a Fearful Dog across the face?? 

David was able to help me because I did describe my situation to him "accurately!" In any case the leash pop thing was "here" not the other thread!

And again leash pop, David may have used more vigor than I did?? I used a light pop on the top of the head and you apparently have me bashing the crap out of "Rocky" oh and Rocky also.

And as I say yet again "corrections" are subject to interpretation. Hence the "Pet Convincer," I adjusted "David's" advice to scale to fit the dog in front of me.

Am I the only one in the "world" that is capable of doing that?? If people can't use some kind of "common sense" then they should stick with "Gold Fish."


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> I've only read this one page of this thread so can only respond to these comments.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


BUT it's on the internet..

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...a0WArc&usg=AFQjCNEBFh0qGMis5YhzLdf0L-T1jV8KFw


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

ksotto333 said:


> BUT it's on the internet..
> 
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...a0WArc&usg=AFQjCNEBFh0qGMis5YhzLdf0L-T1jV8KFw


So it must be true


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

ksotto333 said:


> BUT it's on the internet..





llombardo said:


> So it must be true


Only if there is a youtube video


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MadLab said:


> There is such a thing as a hard fearful dog


Most likely but it was a silly point of reference (fearful dog). The advice I do reference is conflict free. If you have a dog that comes "up leash" on you because you did "Sit on the Dog" or "The Place Command" yeah you have a problem and "professional" help recommend and I will add good luck with a PO only trainer with such a dog! 

And most "newbies" with such a dog would by and large have no idea what a PO trainer is??? 

"The Good Paws" guys would sound pretty good to them ...good luck with that.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MadLab said:


> Depends on the information provided. If there is video of a behavior or a good explanation then the cause of the aggression can be determined.
> 
> If people want to discover something about there dogs behaviors and are persistent then they can get answers/ theories/ techniques which will help them.
> 
> ...


Hey I got advice from an Ex Military handler ... worked out fine!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Magwart said:


> Dude, you're picking and choosing. You also linked to David suggesting wacking a dog in the face with a leash. THAT with a fearful dog could make things a whole lot worse. David has the experience to know the dogs he's working with, and he works with dogs as a group that may be harder than some pet dogs.
> 
> Wack a truly fearful dog in the face with a leash? It will never trust you. Never! That's the kind of advice that could screw up the wrong dog -- even though it may work for some other dog.


 I own a fearful dog that would be devastated if I hit her at all, never mind in the face. And my fearful dog, attacks first and asks questions later. I may take training tips off the internet, but I have the wisdom to gauge the dog in front of me and know when I need to ignore people. I had a guest in my home grab Shadow by the scruff and pin her on the floor because she was too wound up and getting feisty. It had impact enough on her that well meaning persons reaching to pet her or grabbing her collar ended up dodging teeth. It also made her avoid contact. It did not stop her getting amped up and feisty. And although she went limp instantly, when I pushed him off her she lunged for him.
I have had any number of internet gurus advise a firm hand, hard corrections and hitting for her. I have had a few trainers advise 'teaching her who's boss'.
Bud will take a swat and shake it off, take a leash pop and smarten up.
Shadow? Trapped on a leash, unable to run? She would attack, and never go near you again.
People need to not take advice from strangers on the internet.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> Only if there is a youtube video


Of course..:rolleyes2:


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sabis mom said:


> I had a guest in my home grab Shadow by the scruff and pin her on the floor because she was too wound up and getting feisty.
> .


what is wrong with people? A boyfriend of my daughter's slapped Jax one day. She was playing with Seger. I was standing right there and he just reached out and whacked her upside the head. Unfortunately, there were extenuating circumstances so I couldn't toss his ass out that day but he didnt' stay long and he didn't come back.

Why do people think it's ok to lay their hands on someone else's dog? Especially to correct the dog? Stupid.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> what is wrong with people? A boyfriend of my daughter's slapped Jax one day. She was playing with Seger. I was standing right there and he just reached out and whacked her upside the head. Unfortunately, there were extenuating circumstances so I couldn't toss his ass out that day but he didnt' stay long and he didn't come back.
> 
> Why do people think it's ok to lay their hands on someone else's dog? Especially to correct the dog? Stupid.


Well "people do be acting like fools!"


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> I sounds as though a behaviorist would have better success working with a qualified trainer than an unknowledgable individual. The trainer is the one that needs the information to shape a program that will work for that particular dog.


I agree.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Sabis mom said:


> People need to not take advice from strangers on the internet.


Wait, you give advice, I give advice, we all give advice. That's the whole reason they have sub-forums on training or raising, aggression, feeding, etc.. people passing along advice based on their experiences. Right?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Steve Strom said:


> Wait, you give advice, I give advice, we all give advice. That's the whole reason they have sub-forums on training or raising, aggression, feeding, etc.. people passing along advice based on their experiences. Right?


We do! 

But don't you think there is a line where some topics should be referred to a professional? Or where you see people giving advice that they've found on the internet and are just passing along?

I can give advice on fear based dog aggression in a weak nerved dog based on that dog being attacked by another dog. Advice on what I did that worked for her. That's the scope of my knowledge and it's limited to that one dog. 

My issue is with people that give advice outside their knowledge of behavioral issues, breed lines (like people yapping about WL's who have never owned or worked a dog in their life), health issues they've never encountered. And on and on.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Yeah, and then you end up trying to define a worth while professional, Lol. I'm saying the same thing as you pointed out, as far as passing on experiences. That's all I mean.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Steve Strom said:


> Yeah, and then you end up trying to define a worth while professional, Lol. I'm saying the same thing as you pointed out, as far as passing on experiences. That's all I mean.


And then my head aches and then...well...vodka...

I don't share with many but I'll share with you! lol

oh...btw...my worth while professional gave me yet another lessons in left turns


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> We do!
> 
> But don't you think there is a line where some topics should be referred to a professional? Or where you see people giving advice that they've found on the internet and are just passing along?


Well as that is my "thing" ... maybe a FB campaign to stop Jeff Gellman, Sean O'shea, Tythedogguy, Tylor Muto and Lou Castle among a few (notables) from posting information on the internet that can "help people."

Add "Bailiff to the list also, it's his fault that I understand "training calmness into a dog." And respond to PM's asking me about "Sit on The Dog." 

From my experience people with a dog with uh people issues should train the dog in "Place" and keep people out of his face. And exercise "constant vigil" to ensure that happens. A muzzle is a good safety as a fall back for those less "anal" then myself.

If doing that is to much effort for those with a problem dog ... put the dog in a "secure location." 

And I'm pretty much a no "Dog Park" kinda guy, I don't need to be fixing problems created by other peoples badly behaved cur"s and encourage others to do the same. (For the record) five attempts "thwarted" thus far and all occurred close to home, no (Dog Park encounters ...) so there is that.
*
Most "attacks" occur close to home?? *I became "aware" of that here so thank you MAWL for that. 

That's kinda how I use forums, myself. My "base" "assumption" is that others can do so also if they understand it can be done. 

That is kinda how "I" work, I have no idea what other's do??


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Steve Strom said:


> Wait, you give advice, I give advice, we all give advice. That's the whole reason they have sub-forums on training or raising, aggression, feeding, etc.. people passing along advice based on their experiences. Right?


You are right. I stand corrected. 

It is a constant source of fascination to me that people get puppies and expect that the puppy will behave. Puppies don't behave, they bite and bark and pee and puke and chew and chase and cry. It is the equivalent of bringing home a newborn baby and saying there's the kitchen, get a job. 

But when people ask about aggression, or potential aggression my advice tends to be prevent the possibility and seek professional help. If your dog is lunging at guests, stop letting it near guests.
When the crazy lady came to assess Shadow, I turned first to the folks here to see if I might be nuts-always a possibility-then I found a reputable trainer and asked for a second opinion.
Just like when people post things like 'my 8 week old puppy is listless and not eating' my advice is always vet NOW!


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Yes, Jax, absolutely. Anyone with a training or behavior problem they can't handle or are nervous about should consult with a behavior specialist or private trainer. 

Thanks to rescue experience I never wanted, I've dealt with several highly aggressive dogs. I'm far from an expert and I know enough to tell someone to find one if they need it. I learned a lot by experiencing and reading about it, though. My take away from my own experience was to get a puppy and work with him daily to avoid the kinds of issues my fosters and rescue had. I hope I'm successful.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Rescue is hard. 

One dog we had is the reason Jax is DA. His anxiety was crazy and way above my skill set. Would get nervous and turn on the nearest dog. Begged the rescue to move him. They finally did 9 months later when Jax had enough of being attacked and sent him to the e-vet for stitches. So many things I learned for this experience!

Another was almost euthanized at the shelter for aggression. I cried when I handed him over to the rescue. I would have kept him. THere was no aggression. There was an intact male walked by a cage full of other intact males there were nasty and he reacted. 100% mismanagement at the shelter and blamed him.

Saddest case, Caspian. He went thru the 2011 flood, came into the shelter with a huge wound on his shoulder. Had such high anxiety they couldn't keep weight on him. So he started spending weekends with me. I saw some inappropriate aggression, told the new full time foster everything. They had him for 7 months. did everything right. Training, behaviorist, vet workup at Cornell. In the end, the only solution was to euthanize him. He was becoming dangerous. No known triggers. He was happy happy till he wasn't.

So many different causes for aggression. Or aggression that really isn't. You can not diagnose it on the internet.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

No it can't be diagnosed from a message board post. Not only does someone need to see the dog, an owner with a problem is explaining from their own perspective, and might be leaving out important information. I like rescuing and fostering, and I like the concept of saving dogs, but if we ever foster again, I'm going to be much pickier about the dogs we take in. And they might be a different, smaller breed if they are going to be here temporarily. I keep thinking I would be an awesome trainer with an easy breed, knowing what I know now.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Ditto!!!!


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Magwart said:


> Here's the thing with behaviorists. They're aren't many of them.
> 
> There are maybe 70 or so credentialed DVMs in the U.S. who are members of the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists -- that's 70 in the _whole _country. That's the _entire membership_ of the ACVB. I would expect them to charge $200 or so for an initial consult. I've heard of one charging $400. Here's a link to the directory:
> 
> For The Public « ACVB


Interesting, the ONE number I was able to get for a behaviorist for a cat was at UMN (so, not the person listed in MN on the ACVB directory), and that person was out on medical leave for an undetermined time. At any rate, there were not other options that my vet could recommend. Just for grins, I asked UMN what their going rate was, and it was $300 just for an initial consultation.

(And that's all I have to add to the thread, I'm just reading through.)


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Yes.




Jax08 said:


> We do!
> 
> *But don't you think there is a line where some topics should be referred to a professional? Or where you see people giving advice that they've found on the internet and are just passing along?*
> 
> ...


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Some good content here on animal behaviorists and what they know above and beyond a trainer - though some trainers have these skills. It may help to understand why you need someone with this background to help with nip/bite 
issues.Who Should Treat Behavior Problems in Dogs & Cats?


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

And after reading all of this, I want to thank every experienced person on here for sharing their personal opinions, experiences, and knowledge. With my puppy coming, I'm going to take something from each and everyone and use what works best. It has given me a game plan with the idea that audibles will be needed. I've got Deb Zappia's training team lined up, and a vet appointment my first day.


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