# Reflections on Cesar Milan



## Sarah'sSita (Oct 27, 2001)

Found this on another training board I belong to. Interesting article on a different view on Cesar. http://www.4pawsu.com/cesarfans.htm

by Lisa Mullinax, CPDT 

Since writing The Dog Whisperer Controversy, I have received emails 
from fans who vehemently disagree with what I have written. In an 
effort to dispel many of the myths viewers have about the show, I 
have responded to the most common arguments below.

I HAVE NEVER SEEN HIM HURT A DOG

The majority of the critics are not referring to physical abuse, 
although some of the methods used on the show could be classified as 
such. In the episode Fondue, Chip, Hope & JoyJoy, small dogs are 
lifted several feet off the ground and swung by the scruff of their 
neck. In Teddy, a Lab's feet are pulled off the ground by hanging him 
from the leash. Most dog owners would not allow a person at the dog 
park to treat their dogs in this manner, regardless of the dog's 
behavior. 

JonBee, muzzled, is lifted off the ground by a choke chain, a 
procedure known as "stringing up". Prior to this, the dog had not 
only shown no signs of aggression but had been attempting to avoid 
interaction with the star completely. 

Ruby shows frequent multiple signs of stress during this episode. 
Shortly after this, she is offered a treat, which she does not take. 
Refusal of food in an otherwise healthy dog is a common sign that a 
dog's sympathetic nervous system has engaged, shutting down the 
digestive system in preparation for fight or flight. 
What critics are primarily concerned with, however, is the 
psychological stress that dogs are placed under during the show. Many 
dogs that offer avoidance behaviors at the start of the show are 
often pushed to the point of aggression. 

One disturbing example is JonBee, a Jindo who is forced to lie on his 
side. After a significant and dangerous struggle (during which the 
dog appears to have urinated), the dog finally gives up and allows 
himself to be rolled over. However, the dog is not relaxed. Quite the 
opposite. The dog exhibits all of the signs of stress listed in the 
previous article, and is exhibiting a phenomenon known as learned 
helplessness, sometimes referred to by trainers as "shut down." 

Learned helplessness was originally observed by scientists who placed 
dogs in a box with no escape and shocked them through the floor. The 
dogs first tried to escape and then, exhausted and finding no exit, 
simply lay down on the floor, despite continued shocks. The dogs 
weren't enjoying the shocks more than they were in the beginning, 
they had simply given up. 

It does not take physical injury to traumatize a dog. While some dogs 
can recover from traumatic experiences, others will have lasting 
behavioral problems as a result. 

Just as in humans, chronic stress causes serious medical problems in 
dogs such as weakened immune systems, digestive diseases and heart 
disease. Acute stress can sensitize the dog to specific environments 
and people, creating a more negative association than before and 
escalating behavior problems in the long run. 

So repeatedly stressing a dog does, in fact, hurt the dog. 

HAVE YOU EVER WATCHED THE SHOW? 

In fact, most of the professionals who have spoken out watch the show 
regularly. Andrew Luescher, a Veterinary Behaviorist at Purdue 
University, viewed tapes of the show sent to him by National 
Geographic before it aired. He voiced his concerns to the producers 
at that time. 

I regularly watch the show and download the video podcasts. I first 
watch it without sound, so that I can observe both the dogs' behavior 
and the star's actions, as well as the dog's response to the methods 
used. I find that the dramatic music, the announcer and the star's 
explanations frequently contradict what is actually happening on the 
screen. 

AREN'T CRITICS JUST JEALOUS OF HIS SUCCESS?

Many of the professionals who have spoken out against the show are 
immensely successful in their own right. They have the respect of 
their colleagues, are professors at universities and popular speakers 
and authors. Others include professional dog trainers and behavior 
consultants who successfully help dogs with serious behavior problems 
through shelters and other non-profit organizations that are 
dedicated to improving the welfare of dogs and other animals. 

Second, the popularity of the show has not created a loss in business 
for professional trainers and behavior consultants. In fact, quite 
the opposite. We have seen a tremendous increase in calls as owners 
realize that behavior problems are not something they have to live 
with, which is the positive influence of the show. However, at least 
half of the households we visit watch the show regularly and have 
attempted the methods on the show without success or with negative 
results. 

If the show achieved the same level of success with humane methods 
based on the current and ever-expanding knowledge of science and 
behavior, and not on one individual's personal interpretation of 
behavior, most professionals would be singing the praises of the show 
and the star. It is not jealousy behind the protests but concern for 
the safety and well-being of dogs and their owners. 

BUT HE DOESN'T TRAIN DOGS, HE REHABILITATES THEM 

While training for obedience and changing problem behaviors are not 
the same thing, they are not entirely separate, either. Successfully 
training a dog requires an understanding of how dogs learn and what 
motivates them to repeat behaviors. That understanding is also 
critical in being able to change behavior. 

Dogs that don't have even a basic foundation of obedience are harder 
to control and less responsive to their owners, which can make 
behavior modification (or rehabilitation) much more difficult. One of 
the things I frequently observe about the show is that, while the 
dogs may not be reacting to whatever triggers the behavior (other 
dogs, people, skateboards, etc.), they are also not looking at or 
responding to the owner. Instead, the presence of a tight leash and 
frequency of jerks on the leash suggest that the dog would not be 
quite as "calm-submissive" if the owner were to drop the leash. 

It is hard to imagine how one can rehabilitate a dog without a basic 
knowledge of how dogs learn or why they would want to skip this 
important step that encourages cooperation and puts the owner in 
a "leadership" position. 

DO YOU THINK THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY TO TRAIN A DOG? 

Not at all. However, what few people realize is that many of the top 
positive trainers (including "clicker trainers") started as 
traditional trainers 20-30 years ago and switched to reward-based 
methods after realizing the benefits in training for obedience, 
competition and behavior modification. So not only are they aware 
that there is more than one way, they have extensive experience using 
a variety of methods, including the compulsive methods used on the 
show. They also have extensive experience with the backlash that can 
occur after using such methods. On the other hand, there are few 
trainers who still use traditional methods today who crossed over 
from reward-based methods. 

Yes, there is more than one way to train a dog. I think what owners 
should ask themselves is why choose to start with a method that could 
stress or hurt the dog without trying less aversive methods first. 

Additional Reading
Traditional Training Methods

I HEARD THAT "POSITIVE" TRAINERS WOULD RATHER EUTHANIZE THOSE DOGS 

Given the extensive number of books written by positive trainers on 
how to change serious behavior problems, including aggression, not to 
mention the ongoing continuing education through seminars and 
conferences regarding how to change aggressive behavior, it is clear 
that positive trainers do not immediately choose euthanasia over 
modifying the behavior. 

An ethical trainer, positive or otherwise, knows that euthanasia is 
an option that is not to be recommended lightly, and never over the 
phone or internet. The ultimate decision should be made by the dog 
owner, after they have considered all factors including any disease 
or illness that may be causing and/or contributing to the behavior, 
extent of the behavior, available behavior modification options, 
ability to safely manage the dog while implementing a behavior 
modification plan, personal liability and the commitment of all 
household members. 

If a dog owner receives this recommendation over the phone or 
internet or from only one professional, we strongly advise seeking 
additional opinions.

BUT IT WORKS

I have not seen changed behavior on the show. I do see dogs with 
suppressed behaviors; dogs walking on very tight leashes, dogs that 
are stiff and immobile after being rolled onto their sides by force, 
dogs that are in almost every case restrained or shut down in some 
form or another. 

For me, as for many others who work with dogs on a daily basis, if 
the dog has to be restrained on a short leash to walk past another 
dog, to be groomed or to do any other task, the behavior has not been 
changed. 

IT WORKED ON MY DOG 

If the show's methods helped you and your dog and have not created 
additional behavior problems, then I can understand why it would be 
difficult to see the harm in them. However, in comparison to the 
limited number of dogs the average owner will own in their lifetime, 
professional trainers and behaviorists who speak out against these 
methods see thousands of dogs that develop significant behavior 
problems as a direct result of punitive methods. 

One must also define "work." What I frequently hear is something 
along these lines:

"It worked on my dog. Every time he does [enter behavior], I just 
give him a correction and tell him "Tsssht" and he stops." 

Note the words, "Every time he barks." This indicates that the dog is 
still repeating the behavior. The idea behind behavior modification 
is not that the dog simply stops the behavior momentarily, but that 
the behavior changes so that the dog's reaction in that environment 
is different, like looking at you instead of barking. Suppression of 
a behavior is not changing the behavior, itself. If the owner has to 
continually repeat the "correction" the behavior isn't changing.

SO WHAT IF HE DOESN'T HAVE A FORMAL EDUCATION? / HE ACTUALLY WORKS 
WITH DOGS AND DOESN'T JUST STUDY THEM IN A LAB. 

There are a lot of professional trainers and behavior consultants who 
do not have a formal education or advanced degrees. However, these 
trainers do educate themselves and continue their education, staying 
abreast of the latest in dog training and behavior. 

While it may be true that the scientists who work in laboratories 
studying behavior do not always work with problem dogs, the 
information that they provide is invaluable to those of us who do 
work with problem dogs. 

Ignoring over a century of research about animal behavior and 
learning furthers the ignorance of dog owners, the leading cause of 
behavior problems in dogs. 

DO YOU THINK PEOPLE SHOULD TREAT THEIR DOGS LIKE CHILDREN? 

Responsible parenting involves providing required nutrition, 
education, and rules and boundaries without the use of physical 
violence. All of those principles are also consistent with raising a 
healthy, well-mannered dog. So if more dog owners treated their dogs 
as they are expected to raise children, there should be fewer 
problems, not more. 

In 1992, The Journal of Applied Animal Welfare Science published a 
study1 of more than 700 dog owners which tried to determine whether 
or not anthropomorphic attitudes or activities were related to 
problem behaviors: 

"....dogs whose owners interacted with them in an anthropomorphic 
manner, 'spoiled' them in certain ways, or did not provide obedience 
training were no more likely to engage in behaviors considered a 
problem by the owner than were dogs not viewed 
anthropomorphically , 'spoiled' by their owner, or given obedience 
training. ("

Dogs do not develop behavior problems simply because people view them 
and/or treat them as child-substitutes. Many other factors such as 
genetics, early socialization (or lack thereof), and trauma all 
contribute to behavior problems in dogs. 

While it is not advisable to view a dog as a human, neither is it 
advisable to view them with an inaccurate and flawed interpretation 
of wolf behavior. 

POSITIVE METHODS DON'T WORK ON "RED ZONE" DOGS

Once again, many of the professionals who focus on force-free methods 
started using aversive methods similar to those used on the show as 
many as 30 years ago. Over time, they found that compulsive methods 
posed a significant risk of increased problem behavior in many dogs. 

When a dog is in a situation where the sympathetic nervous system is 
engaged (also called fight or flight), the digestive system shuts 
down to divert all energy to the muscles for survival. This is what 
is known as over-threshold. So, if one tries to feed a dog treats 
when they are over-threshold, the dog will not eat. This means that 
the owner or trainer has moved too quickly into an environment in 
which the dog is already reacting and unable to learn.

To use positive methods effectively to change behavior, one needs a 
basic understanding of how dogs learn. If they lack that 
understanding, they won't be successful. However, when one is 
unsuccessful with positive methods, there is no change in behavior. 
When one is unsucessful with punishment-based methods, there is often 
an escalation in the problem behavior. 

CONCLUSION 

Because one doesn't understand a method doesn't mean it won't work. 
Because one doesn't follow-through with training at home doesn't mean 
the methods failed. Because a method contradicts one's long-standing 
personal beliefs about behavior does not mean they are inaccurate. 
Because one has had success with a certain method doesn't mean other 
methods are ineffective. 

There was a time when I, too, believed, based on information gleaned 
from friends and well-meaning dog lovers, that serious aggression in 
large dogs was the result of a dominant personality trait and that 
the only solution was through physical, aversive means. Fifteen years 
ago, I would have been a fan of the show, myself. 

Much to the relief of Mac, my large, powerful and what the show would 
refer to as a "red zone" dog, I discovered the many benefits of 
reward-based methods. From that point on, the shock collar and prong 
collar collected dust while we enjoyed many long walks and off-leash 
adventures.

When it comes to working with dogs, the alternative to aversive is 
not permissive. Overly permissive dog owners are just as damaging at 
times as abusive owners. Reward-based trainers and behaviorists have 
extolled the benefits of exercise and boundaries for well over a 
decade. The difference is not in what we do or the results that we 
get, it is in how we get results. 

____________ _________ _________ ___

1. Voith, V.L., Wright, l.C. and Danneman, P.l., 1992. Is there a 
relationship between canine behavior problems and spoiling 
activities, anthropomorphism, and obedience training? Appl. Anim. 
Behav.Sci., 34: 263-272.


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## ThreeDogs (Mar 16, 2007)

I've only even a few of his shows. I am not a fan.

I took a look at that link you have posted which shows a picture of Ruby. Poor thing looks terrified. 

Excellent article.


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## lawhite (Feb 4, 2004)

thank you so much for this. I have always had a hard time explaining to people why I am uncomfortable with his methods (and yes, I watch it all the time as well).


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## Skye'sMom (Jul 11, 2004)

But a great marketer. Flipping thru the channels the other day, I saw him on QVC. Selling pet toys with CD's to show how to use them.









The show started with his aussie getting up, Cesar told the dog to sit and it walked off stage. Smart dog - lights must have been killer.

He had a seminar here in town and I was told he was very funny and not very informative. Good charisma and good marketing. As a trainer? Not my style at all.


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## Guest (Jul 6, 2008)

I've seen him do things I considered very bad and things I was surprised at that he did very well. As Bonnie said, not my style of training for the most part. 

I note with pleasure that the article is written by a CPDT trainer. As that is my certification as well I find it a good indicator of the value in this text.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Because Cesar has been criticized in the past, I think his new shows are trying to show him in a gentler way. He is a marketer, for sure... I don't agree with some of his methods, but I do still watch it when I can, just because I love shows about animals and behavoir, though I like "It's me or the dog" much better. I wish DogTown would have new episodes... 
Thank you for posting the article, Sarah!


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## jake (Sep 11, 2004)

If I could be sure show was NOT extremely edited I might believe.Some really dumb owners helped for SURE.I do watch the show but am not a true believer that Caesar is whisperer.WHY don't we see any failures?NO ONE is good enough to be totally successful!


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

While I don't agree with all of his methods, I do watch him occasionally.

What I think he is good for is this: people who don't have much insight into canine behavior will learn simple things that most of us here already know.

For expample - my neighbor is a cat person (she has 5) and a newly wed. Husband brought home a terror (opps terrier) pup. She has no idea how to relate to the dog and watching Cesar makes her feel better that at least her dog isn't THAT bad. She's also learned about how to have leadership skills without bullying the dog like her husband does.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Though on the flipside of that it can enpower foolish owners and be dangerous if people who don't know any better decide to roll their dogs or string them up just because they saw it (not knowing there is editing) and thought it would work...I don't think we will ever see Cesar do these methods again on his shows, luckily.


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## Maedchen (May 3, 2003)

Excellent article! I didn't know Cesar was still on the air







- 

I'm glad that now Animal Planet has a real dogtrainer- Victoria Stidwell- on, so hopefully people will see that they can successfully train their (even aggressive) dogs without choke chains, treadmill tortures, alpha rolls and other physical & mental abuse- and there's no warning disclaimer.


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## LedZep (May 4, 2008)

Treadmill tortures? Are you suggesting that putting a dog on a treadmill is torture?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I liked the article.

I do respect CM because I believe he is genuine in his love of dogs and something has to be said for having a stable pack of 40+ dogs. 

When people ask me my opinion, I say "Would I be honored to have lunch with him? Definitely. Would I let him touch my dogs? Not likely."

For one, I don't encourage what seem to be his two biggest techniques - flooding and physical corrections. I do use some physical corrections, but only for skills that I have already taught the dog. I do not use them to force submission out of my dog. And yeah...I don't use flooding on my dog. It does NOT work and just makes things worse. I've had much better luck using positive reinforcement, "click to calm" type training, and gradual desensitization.

Also, he sort of annoys me in that his big "philosophies" are really basic things that are common sense as far as dog training and every trainer I know has always advocated the same things (exercise the dog, don't inadvertently reward the dog for doing what we don't want, don't treat a dog like a child....). His "pop" phrases like dog psychology and rehabilitation annoy me because it's like he's trying to set himself apart from the rest, when really he is just another trainer (lacking the education and credentials that many others have earned) using the same basic philosophies as everyone else and implementing them using some out-dated methods.

This is no fault of his, but I am perturbed at how many people watch his show, accept his word as gold, and try what he does on their own dogs. This weekend I met another GSD fancier at the fireworks show and she told me that she loooves Cesar and his methods...then later in the conversation she tells me that her dog is spoiled and failed basic obedience. Hmmmmm.....


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## Maedchen (May 3, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: LedZepTreadmill tortures? Are you suggesting that putting a dog on a treadmill is torture?


Depending on the dog- yes. There might be some dogs who tolerate it well (I wouldn't say any dog will truly enjoy it), but most of them hate it (just look at the dogs!). It's very unnatural for dogs and there are much better ways to excercise a dog (like through mental stimulation)- but I understand he has to do it in order to better overpower them (an exhausted dog is less likely to protest against his abuse).


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## littledmc17 (Apr 9, 2008)

I enjoy watching his show. Only too see what stupid mistakes people make with their animals. Some of his training methods are ridiculous and my DH gets pissed when I watch.
I spoil Brady I'll be the first to say it but when I speak you know that he listens, especially when we are not at home. Let me just say this if you don't have time to train your dog then DON'T get one plain and simple


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Liesje
> 
> This is no fault of his, but I am perturbed at how many people watch his show, accept his word as gold, and try what he does on their own dogs. This weekend I met another GSD fancier at the fireworks show and she told me that she loooves Cesar and his methods...then later in the conversation she tells me that her dog is spoiled and failed basic obedience. Hmmmmm.....


More than these folks, I love the ones that come over to me and tell me how to train MY dog because this is how Cesar says to do it. Really. I'm proofing my dog for serious distractions (in a public place), perhaps working on downstays or sitstays, and some moron walks up and tells me "oh, this is what you need to do. This is what Cesar says to do." 

It's happened more times than I can tell you. 

There are three things things I like about Cesar is that he basically says: 

1. A "bad" dog is the fault of the owner. 

2. Get the dog out of the back yard and get him some exercise. WE all know that a tired dog is a good dog. But most people really believe that a decent size back yard is fine for a dog. Is a walk enough exercise? No, not for big dogs or certain other breeds. But it's a start, especially for really bored dogs that just hang out in the yard all day long. 

3. The owner is the leader. Act like one.

With these little tidbits, it's really helpful to speak to laypeople/neighbors usually when they say "I just don't know what to do with Fido. He's such a bad dog." You know the neighbor won't EVER take an obedience class, but they probably will read a book (or watch a TV show, though I try to steer people toward the book). One of my neighbor's dogs goes for walks almost every night after I suggested she pick up the his book. The result? The dog doesn't bark all day/night long; and seems happier; neighbor isn't planning to give the dog away (like she has her last 3 dogs, including the last one that was euthanized). Neighbor has lost 10 pounds and is thrilled. Just a simple daily 1-hour walk and an engaged owner. Could I have suggested the same thing? Sure. But I'm not a professional endorsed by Jada and Will Smith.

That said, we have no idea how many takes, cuts and video edits it takes to create his show. We don't know what Cesar *really* does on his show. We simply don't. So I don't trust him. I don't trust any television "reality" show, because I don't think I'm seeing much "reality" there.


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## song032005 (Dec 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: 3K9Mom
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Liesje
> ...


great post!! i especially liked the last part! cesar is interacting with the owners and dogs, as far as i know hes not the producer or the one editing the film. what you see [the final product], makes good tv and thats why its so popular.

guess what? i am a CM fan! and i have been long before his show went to the NGC. in addition to working with dogs, he is a good marketer and speaker, he is a businessman and a very successful one at that. but he also helps people with their dogs. 

im not going to comment on all the things i want to defend but my perception or interpetation of what CM is doing is different than what has been stated in the first post. not that i agree with all his methods because i dont, anymore than i agree with any one way for all dogs. i do feel strictly positive method training can be VERY successful for many dogs of all types and issues, but not for all. to point out, i feel "the walk" is a positive method. 

again this is just my opinion. 

the flooding or bringing on the behavior is to get the dog in the dogs bad place, its something ceasar does to deal with the issues the owners are having, he usually doesnt take on dogs for more than one session. and generally once the dog learns that this human [meaning ceasar] is not afraid of him or her and wont back down ceasar is changing the dynamic of the relationship this dog has had with humans [im refering to dogs that are acting aggressive towards their owner or another pack member human]. CM does it from the minute he walks onto the property, with his body language and not having eye contact with the dog. its clear to me he is sending a message to the dog and most times it doesnt take much for the dog to unlearn what his humans have taught him. but some dogs dont want to transform so easily, can it be handled differently than CM does it? sure! but he is the one the owners called! 

and honestly i am not so convinced so many of them were cured with one visit from him, i think the humans need a lot more insight most times than one visit can cover. how many of you went from knowing nothing about dogs, to knowing everything you know today in one sitting with one person who works with dogs?









so i will end this saying that CM methods are his and maybe there is some old school training within his practice, but being he was raised in a time when that was the way to handle dogs, i think he is a kitten in comparison. and i think he is doing alot more good than people give him credit for. i also think that some folks arent being realistic about how many trainers are out there that speak like they are all hip on new training methods and still resort to old methods in combination. to me its a matter of knowledge and based off that knowledge you get a preference. not everyone is going to be on the same page on dog training.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

Great post Angie.

I am with you on CM. No, I dont agree with ALL of his methods, but, well, chances are, theres always gonna be someone doing something that someone else doesnt like.

Its TV, so yes, alot of things are cut, but that doesnt mean its all bad. Why must people assume that only bad things get cut out all the time. We dont KNOW what got cut out. Maybe he had an hour long convo with the owners before they started, maybe he walked for 20 minutes with the dog.....etc etc etc.

I dont believe in a one size fits all in training. I think you have to take alot of things into consideration.

One thing about CM, is he's not a trainer, hes a behavorist and deals with canine behavor. Not training as in sit stay heel.

In the grand scheme of things...there are people who deal with dogs WAY worse an in an obvisous abusive way.


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## sklippstein (Apr 10, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: 3K9Mom
> 
> 
> Liesje said:
> ...


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## poppy1677 (Sep 23, 2007)

I'll 'fess up, I'm a big fan too. However, all I get from simply watching his show is the importance of a sense of confidence and calm. My little (huge) Otis can drive me absolutely "red zone" crazy sometimes and I do use the take a deep breath, picture positive outcomes, and be calm tip. This is totally more for me than Otis, as I don't think anyone would be inclined to listen to a shrieking madwoman, much less obey. But I don't think I'd ever succesfully be able to work with a dog by just listening to any tv show. Ceasar's method of exercise, discipline, affection confused me to no end at first. Exercise obviously- Otis would walk from NY to California and back if I could keep up- and affection easy- of course I love him- but discipline? Was I supposed to break out the biker gear and crack the whip around the house to terrify my dog into submission? I'm pretty sure I'm not supposed to smack my dog around (not that I ever would or even could given that he's my size and equipped with way bigger teeth) so what was this 'Dog Whisperer' guy talking about? My solution was more research. Not only did I read and watch everything I could find on GSD's and dogs in general, I went out and read his books to learn more (yes I'm a nerd but I have a powerful curiosity







). I discovered discipline wasn't for my dog- narrow escape Otis!- but for me. Ahhh the light dawns, it will benefit my dog to establish a routine, enforce rules, be repetitive, and make sure that I don't slack off just because I may not feel like going for a walk or making sure my dog has good manners. If I had only watched the show, being nowhere near a professional, I probably would not have learned very much about how to raise a dog- but through more research and being open to try different techniques I think I'm doing an ok job. One also has to realize that he is working with owners that are a step away from taking drastic measures. My previous GSD had not been abused but nevertheless was a rescue/ruthless fear biter/hated everyone but us/one more bite reported to the police and you're gone doggie and it was a very different experience living and working with her than raising a clean slate puppy. We had 7 years with her and it was a constant state of vigilance so that she could have the best and most free life possible. It is totally different to work with a puppy we've had from two months old, he may be a naughty little monkey but I'm not calling Animal Control anytime soon. I would never use the same techniques with him as we had to use with Star, so why would I copy a man I see on tv working with aggressive dogs? I've picked up more useful and specific techniques from this forum than anything else, but I still enjoy watching the show. Because that is what tv is, entertainment and not something to blindly follow cause it seems easy. And enough from the soapbox, I'm off to practice some deep breathing so the next time Otis knocks over his water dish- I'll keep my cool, remember that it's not the end of the world, and try not to pitch a hissy fit. I'll save calling the 'Dog Whisperer' for a dog that really needs it, not one that's merely being himself and needs a wee bit of direction.


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## Rick Vervoort (Jul 30, 2008)

Well put Sarah,I think alot of people lose patience with GSd puppies
and look for the definitive answer.Patience first,read tons of advice
and never give up or you weern't destined for a GSD in the first place


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## Heidibu (Jul 22, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: brooksdaddyI think alot of people lose patience with GSd puppies and look for the definitive answer.Patience first,read tons of advice and never give up or you weern't destined for a GSD in the first place


Hear, hear! I completely agree with this statement having been one of those people that <u>would not </u>give up on my hard puppy. Although, she tested me every day.









I watch CM occasionally, altho I don't agree with some of the things he teaches. I'm a fan of Victoria's _Its Me or the Dog _series.


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## Lola1969 (Mar 6, 2007)

I think CM is worth his weight in gold if only for the fact that he stresses in practically every show how much our dogs NEED daily exercise.

I can't tell you how many neurotic dogs we pass on our walks every day cooped up in their yards, unsocialized, with so much pent up energy.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Lola1969I think CM is worth his weight in gold if only for the fact that he stresses in practically every show how much our dogs NEED daily exercise.
> 
> I can't tell you how many neurotic dogs we pass on our walks every day cooped up in their yards, unsocialized, with so much pent up energy.


True. If only his show really focused on that! I know of someone who is obsessed with CM but b/c of what is shown on the show, only does two 20 minute walks a day holding the dog's leash 8 inches from his neck as the dog's "exercise".


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

I wonder, though, Lies, if this person was just plopping her dog in the back yard and considering that "exercise" before? If so, even though it doesn't come even slightly close to our standards, it's an improvement. I don't know; I don't anything about this owner. (And I certainly understand what you're saying and I completely agree with you.) But for many, many dog owners, they don't walk their dogs EVER, especially if they have a yard. So 40 minutes of walk might be an improvement?









The 8" of slip leash has to go though.


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## GSDextrodinaire (Dec 15, 2002)

I am not of fan of CM at all. I see on a fairly regular basis the results for Joe Public watching him and trying those methods on their dog. The result is usually a surrendering of the dog who has bitten one or more members of the household. Previous to the "new training" the dog had not bitten.

The other thing he says that I disagree with is that exercise is best. Okay, don't freak out ! Yes, I agree dogs need exercise. BUT, exercise does not make a happy well trained dog. There are two kinds of exercise. There is exercise for the mind and there is exercise for the body. Both in moderation, and you have a well balanced dog. 

Take for example a weim with high energy. This is an athletic dog. Yes, it needs exercise. What the dog needs more, is having its mind worked. If you exercise the dog excessively in an effort to tire the dog out, so you do not have to deal with the behaviors, all you are creating is a dog that has built stamina. As you progress with the dog's exercise, you find as time goes on the dog needs more exercise to become tired. You are building an athlete. Consider the dog would tire and sleep after a 2 mile run, and maybe you are only able to run two miles. After a period of time, you notice after two miles, Fluffy the weim is very active and is getting into trouble. Fluffy has built stamina and needs more. 

Most owners, pet owners, do not understand the balance of mental and physical exercise. Truth be told, mental exercise will make a dog more tired than physical exercise, and in the process, the dog is learning, and becoming a more mannered member of the house. Plus if time is an issue for an owner, you can mentally tire most dogs in half the time it takes to physically exhaust them.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

dogs have been surrendered by the thousands every year long before CM has been around, and they'll continue to be long after he is gone. I highly doubt he's the cause of any of it.

I train nothing like him, and like someone said earlier, i'd have a lunch with him, but wouldn't let him touch my dog. That said, he's done more to make owners think about what they are doing with their dogs than any other trainer i've ever heard of.


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## Skye'sMom (Jul 11, 2004)

Anyone remember Uncle Matty? He was one of the first positive trainers on TV and was super with dogs in a totally fun style of training. He worked with the handlers and gave good feedback.

Cesar is 'today.' If he focused on exercise, consistency and remembering a dog is a dog he would be harmless as well as doing good. But he exercise becomes treadmills and as negative dog behavior excalates so does Cesars'.

Celebrity trainers will come and go. Someone will replace him and they too will have nothing new except a winsome personality.

Maybe there should be a new reality show like the ones for chefs and designers - "Who Will Be the Next 15 Minutes of Fame Dog Trainer."


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: GSDextrodinaireAs you progress with the dog's exercise, you find as time goes on the dog needs more exercise to become tired. You are building an athlete.


 I absolutely agree with that. When Yana was a younger pup she was very hyper and full of energy but didn't have any real drive to work. She could easily do 20 miles of off-leash running a day (7-10 miles hiking for me) and after 15 min rest she was ready to go again. She was (and still is) a never stopping machine when it comes to exercise. 

I did work on her obedience, tricks, retrieve and on surfacing all the drive she had and we added tracking as well. I knew that she was only to get more mature and stronger and I wouldn't be able to keep up with her at some point. 

Adding a second dog helped a lot too.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: 3K9MomI wonder, though, Lies, if this person was just plopping her dog in the back yard and considering that "exercise" before? If so, even though it doesn't come even slightly close to our standards, it's an improvement. I don't know; I don't anything about this owner. (And I certainly understand what you're saying and I completely agree with you.) But for many, many dog owners, they don't walk their dogs EVER, especially if they have a yard. So 40 minutes of walk might be an improvement?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, I don't want to get too into it here but let's just say this particular person should DEFINITELY know better. If I say I take Kenya on a one hour walk, plus the dogs need to run and play, plus a little bit of agility here and there, this person will come back with "well *I* do what CM does an my dog *only* needs a 20 minute walk" like emulating Cesar to the T is something to brag about.

And Dee, I agree. Kenya needs more mental than physical I think. If I'm sick, she can go like a week without any really hard exercise, but if I don't do at least a few minutes of training here and there, she is literally spinning circles.

I don't know I guess the attitude I get from CM lovers gets my back up. I'm sorry, but it should not take watching three seasons of an over-hyped TV show to learn some BASIC common sense about dog ownership (what? dogs need exercise?1!?!?). Not only that, but then to come off like you know this and that about "training" dogs and bla bla bla....whatever. I do use a few of the same methods and techniques as CM, but I definitely did not learn them from his TV show, I learned them from experience with dogs, going to training classes with different types of trainers, talking with other dog owners, etc.


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## Arobryn (Nov 1, 2007)

One of the biggest things I took away from the Cesar Milan shows is that it's not a dog training show. He's spending minutes demonstrating that a 'problem' can be corrected AND explaining that the owners then need to step in with the (boring) daily routines.

Oh, and that a dog needs exercise, discipline, and love in that order.

It's funny how other people take away what they want from the show and use it to justify their own behaviours.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: L'auraOne of the biggest things I took away from the Cesar Milan shows is that it's not a dog training show. He's spending minutes demonstrating that a 'problem' can be corrected AND explaining that the owners then need to step in with the (boring) daily routines.
> 
> Oh, and that a dog needs exercise, discipline, and love in that order.
> 
> It's funny how other people take away what they want from the show and use it to justify their own behaviours.


Exactly. The people I see desperately trying to apply his methods are going about it all wrong, like just trying to do basic potty training, or teach a young dog to sit. They are stringing up the dog on a choke leash and giving all these leash corrections for a behavior the dog doesn't know/understand yet. That's what's so frustrating. He has all these disclaimers and explicitly states is NOT a dog training show and yet people just don't listen....


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## GSDextrodinaire (Dec 15, 2002)

I run the local shelter that services 16 local communities as both the town/city shelter and the local pound. No less than three times a week do we end up with a dog either being surrendered or comes in on a bite quarantine where during the interview it is revealed that at some point the owner chose to "alpha roll" the dog. Yesterday, a boston terrier, age 4 was brought in by the owner to be euthanized because the dog had bitten three people, his behavior had escalated and they couldn't keep him. As part of the intake we discussed what had transpired. Well, lo' and behold, another owner who received a suggestion from a "professional" who instructed them, verbally on how to dominate the dog. At no time was any true evaluation conducted on this dog. My staff and I were playing with this "dominant alpha" in the tech room. He crawled into my lap, licked my chin, and snuggled. An employee went to pick the dog up and he screamed in pain. This morning after running some tests, this dog's behavior with his family was directly related to kidney issues. Not only was he peeing blood, he had high levels of protein in his urine. Every time this family touched the dog, moving him, picking him up, and then alpha rolling him because of his "aggressive behavior" the behavior escalated. A phone call was made to them to discuss more about how they handled the dog. Guess what, after being told to watch Milan, they determined their dog's problem themselves, and he required an alpha roll, so he would learn who was leader. Oh did I mention the family had only had this boston for 3 months.

That is just one story from this week, alone. I can give additional stories of cattle dogs, huskys and shelties who have been forced into fight or flight behavior because some one suggested to a novice owner how to "handle" their dominant dog. Force the dog to give you its respect, is what NOVICE owners walk away with.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I wish you could forward this story to cesars website so he can see what the effects of his behavioral correction do...Uncle Matty should come and give Cesar some positive corrections!


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

That's why I prefer the English lady's show (what IS her name??).

She spends time evaluating the dog, talks to the owners about their problems, shows them how to work with the dog and then comes back to see how it's going.

And sometimes she goes that one step further. Like the time she took the owner to the shelter to see where her dogs could end up if she didn't straighten up and WORK with her dogs. The owner was really affected and it worked.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

Victoria Stilwell "It's me or the dog"


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Thanks, Barb!! I REALLY like her show!


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

I am a CM fan. I like the show. With everything I see on TV you cannot take it as gospel. 
I feel bad for the people that are not in tune with their dogs to know they have a health issue, like the Boston. There is more wrong with people like that then trying something they saw on TV. 

I do not force my dogs to walk beside me. Even though you probably should, but that is up to me. We just walk. I take want I want from the show. He got me walking. 
I believe he cares. I believe he has done good. He is not a saint he is a tv personality, that is trying to get people to enjoy their dogs and making money at it. 
I believe he says over and over do not try this at home...


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## Skye'sMom (Jul 11, 2004)

> Quote: I believe he says over and over do not try this at home...


His show is directed to people in their homes. If it shouldn't be tried at home, don't show it on TV.

Another reason to vote for Victoria Stillwell - she teaches the family to work with the dog and it's all things they SHOULD do in their homes.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Skye'sMom Victoria Stillwell - she teaches the family to work with the dog and it's all things they SHOULD do in their homes.


 I like her show but she really doesn't deal with problem dogs. She deals with utrained stable dogs that were not tought any manners. She's a trainer, not a behaviorist, and her only suggestion for an agressive dog is to neuter him.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: GSD07
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Skye'sMom Victoria Stillwell - she teaches the family to work with the dog and it's all things they SHOULD do in their homes.
> ...


Erm....not the Stillwell I've been watching! The past three episodes I've seen were all pretty aggressive dogs, quite a bit more aggressive than most of the dogs I've seen on CM (who I think waaaay too often labels a reactive dog as "red zone" aggression).


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Quote:Another reason to vote for Victoria Stillwell - she teaches the family to work with the dog and it's all things they SHOULD do in their homes.


I LOVE her! She comes up with behavior modification things to try I never would have thought of. She tries things and if they don't work, she will TRY SOMETHING ELSE! 

And while her specialty isn't the 'real' aggressive dogs, she does deal with aggression. Most dogs are NOT really aggressive, but they are out of control and what the owners/neighbors/friends/relatives see is alot of jumping/biting/frustration and teeth that may be merely out of control inappropriate behavior.... but when I see teeth coming my way, I can see how I'd label it as aggression.

And the fact she pretty much always sees the problem is with the family members (human wise) and knows that when she gives them a plan of action to work on to change then the dog changes also! I agree with her that the vast majority of the time when we see problems in the dogs, it's because of lack of leadership, firmness, training (and just not knowing better) from the owners. They are DOGS not people and need to be worked with from that framework. And it's not enough to just love them, we have to actually teach/train and work with them.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

http://animal.discovery.com/convergence/its-me-or-the-dog/its-me-or-the-dog.html

I have never seen this show! It's on right now-two episodes. A Doberman right now. "Harvey is an anti social out-of-control Doberman puppy who hates other dogs with a passion and can't be controlled on walks by owner Jane as he pulls off in any direction to chase any dog who crosses his path."

What Cesar does reminds me of what we did with juvenile delinquents at times-staff members who didn't have good counseling or behavior management skills would force or bully kids to get desired behaviors, which was not the point of the program. So those kids would do as they were supposed to-FOR THAT MINUTE-and continue to have no new replacement behaviors other than avoidance, and not really learn to control their own behavior-just have someone else control it. 

Meanwhile, the program was intended to use rewards and consequences so that kids could internalize good behaviors, and apply them to other situations. 

SO-with dogs-to me it is the same. I can yank and crank my dog into a desired behavior, but they just perform to avoid correction. OR-I can work intensely on the behavior and have them learn it and apply it. 

Cesar-method one, vs. learning-method two.


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## Heidibu (Jul 22, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: GSDextrodinaireTruth be told, mental exercise will make a dog more tired than physical exercise, and in the process, the dog is learning, and becoming a more mannered member of the house.


True, true! Prime example: Heidi after a k9 manners class 11 months ago). One pooped pup. LOL


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## mjbgsd (Jun 29, 2004)

> Quote:...Guess what, after being told to watch Milan, they determined their dog's problem themselves, and he required an alpha roll, so he would learn who was leader. Oh did I mention the family had only had this boston for 3 months.


But that's THEIR problem, not CM fault. THEY determined it was dominance and not some other problem. They were the ones who where at fault for not seeing the signs of kidney failure, ie the blood in urine. Don't blame CM for their dumb faults.









Yes, I do like CM and I'm not afraid to say. A lot of his techniques work and I use _some_ of them, not all of them because my dogs aren't "red zone" cases, nor are they crazy. Some things I don't agree with though. My dogs walk beside me and it's nice. I'm not being pulled by two large GSDs like a lot of people I see walking down the road. Heck I've seen poodles pulling their owners... I think it looks horrible. Of course having to walk twice a day every day isn't something I have to do because my dogs aren't "uppity" type shepherds. Actually they are lazy so I don't need to exercise them all the time like he says.


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## Sarah'sSita (Oct 27, 2001)

I'll pipe in. CM is very good at reading dogs. He has exquisite timing. He is very good at handling dogs. He is NOT a behaviorist. Period.
I cannot watch his show anymore. A training club nearby has had a increase in business since CM, and this is a good thing; more fols interested in training. There has also been an increase in dogs coming in AFTER their alpha rolls got them bit or close, and their "flooding" technique made them a worse ball of nerves than before. 
I enjoyed the article as I felt it summarized the arguments and concerns of many effectively.


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## GSDextrodinaire (Dec 15, 2002)

I guess, we have to agree to disagree. That's what is nice about this forum. 

I feel that if you, anyone, provide an "educational" program to the mainstream public, via the media, you have a certain responsibility to do so in a manner that does not put the public and in this case animals at risk. A disclaimer, no matter how many times repeated, is not effective, when you only show "portions" of a training program.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Sarah'sSitaHe has exquisite timing.


I agree, and I think that is where I see a huge gap between him on the show and people trying to emulate him, not stupid people but people who are a bit (or think they are) dog savvy. Regardless of WHAT methods people use to train or rehab dogs, timing of corrections, rewards, commands, lures, body signals, noise aversions, etc is crucial and not something that can be learned overnight.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAANOR-I can work intensely on the behavior and have them learn it and apply it.


Jean, what do you do after your dog learnt the behavior and chose not to perform it?


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## Sarah'sSita (Oct 27, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: GSD07
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAANOR-I can work intensely on the behavior and have them learn it and apply it.
> ...


Not Jean , but I'd say it depends on my dog. Dog Obedience and examining behavioral issues are very different things. I would ask myself...
How do you know the dog truly understands? What is the nature of the relationship with the dog? Built on trust and mutual respect?
Has the reward for getting right been big enough in the eyes of the dog?
Many behavior problems are not about power/dominance and disobedience. They are deep rooted and involve a physiological response response to the a stimulus. Often there are severe temperament and nerve issues present. SOmetimes management of dog is the best one can hope for.
Have you, the trainer, got to the core of the behavior, the "why?"
I guess its a bit off -topic really and may need its own thread.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Dee-I have been floored by your posts-in a very sad way. Thank you for telling us what you see in your position. 

Sarah-that is way better than my answer would have been-but exactly it. Looking at the why of the behavior. 

Dogs shut down. I think that is often the root of what we think of as disobedience. 

I use people examples because I think they are easier to relate to. If you are a kid with a bad LD and the teacher calls on you to read out loud, you might misbehave to avoid doing so, or you might totally shut down and not respond. There is a possibility that you will, under great stress, attempt and fail to do as told but a lot of that is dependent on the relationship with the teacher. But in general, a good teacher will not set a child up to fail. So we try to be good teachers to our dogs and set them up in situations where they will succeed. 

And I think a lot of that is we have to accept and understand what each dog brings to the table and realize that like people, not all are going to be good at all things. If you got a dog thinking that it would be something it's not, that can be discouraging and there probably is a period where you come to acceptance that you are going to be managing behavior. And I am sure that is not a happy thing. 

I choose my dogs based on what they are not because it is something I enjoy-and it fits me-but I realize not everyone wants to have individual treatment plans for their dogs.







So a lot of the time we don't hit that point of them not doing something when asked because I generally move SO slowly with them that they are able to deal with what I am asking. That varies from dog to dog-some dogs I do move more quickly with because they are capable of it-and as long as they are not showing signs of discomfort or popping out a weird behavior, we move forward. I have two therapy dogs and 5 dogs have their CGCs-and the 3 of those are...well...managed behavior cases-but you wouldn't know it to see them, I bet. Because I try not to put them into situations where they will show you their issues.







(but that doesn't mean I don't do it!)

I also believe that you see that shutting down a lot on Cesar's show, and the crank and yank snaps them into performing a behavior but doesn't mean that the dog has learned anything-so each time it will appear they have "chosen" not to do and the crank and yank cycle will begin again. 

I am not at all purely positive, but I try hard to just be fair and have reasonable consequences and not push. If my dog is consistently "misbehaving" in a certain situation, I smack my head and say I bet she's not ready for this and back up. I was lucky to fall into Volhard style classes both in Erie and here and saw the benefits of more motivational methods. 

I still think Sarah's answer is great!


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## Maedchen (May 3, 2003)

_Dee-I have been floored by your posts-in a very sad way. Thank you for telling us what you see in your position. _

Ditto! I think she should go further and write an article for her local newspaper and other pet magazines. It's so important, that her stories & real experiences regarding the after effects of Cesar's training methods are getting out and warn the public. Those people have no clue of what they're doing to their dogs and how they destroy their relationship and trust.









I don't understand how anyone who has the slighest experience in dogs, dog behavior and is able to read their language can agree with Milan. It's beyond me. 

Victoria Stilwell rocks!








And my kids are allowed to watch it, too.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Sarah and Jean, thanks for your replies. I am not talking dog obedience here but behaviour, and believe me I have a dog with issues over the top so I understand what you mean with getting to the source of the problem. But there is a moment when correction is nesessary in order to make it very black and white for the dog, provide direction to the dog and manage him. 

I was very much into positive methods only and missed the moment when I had to start expecting something from the dog not just agonizing on how to teach it better without stressing him. A session with a behaviorist was a true turning point in my relationship with Yana. I started expecting and correcting and the result? A much happier and calmer dog that is a pleasure to be with and train with. 

For many people a session with Cesar Millan does the same, i.e. open their eyes and their minds. That's just how I see it.

Oh, when we are talking people examples, why we are always talking about ADD kids or super shy ones? What about bullies? Would you keep endlessly explaining to them that it's bad to torture other kids or at some point you say 'enough' even though the bully comes from a disfunctional family? We live in a real world, and if we want to have our dogs out there with us, not just keep them in a steril environment in our backyards where they always succeed and whatever they do is beautiful, we need to start having some expectations from them. Dogs are smarter and tougher than we give them credit for.


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## Doreen210 (May 28, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: MaedchenExcellent article! I didn't know Cesar was still on the air
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I couldn't agree with you more! I used to be a fan of CM & still watch his show occassionally. The good thing for me that I got out of watching him was not his method, but the idea of finding a good trainer with excellent credentials to come to my home & work on some behavioral issues I had with Jake. He used the reward based "NILIF" method. There was nothing wrong with Jake.... the problem was "me". I was taught the proper way to use this method & have not had an issue with Jake since. I also love watching Victoria Stidell & am very glad that she is on Animal Planet as well.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: GSD07Sarah and Jean, thanks for your replies. I am not talking dog obedience here but behaviour, and believe me I have a dog with issues over the top so I understand what you mean with getting to the source of the problem. But there is a moment when correction is nesessary in order to make it very black and white for the dog, provide direction to the dog and manage him.
> 
> I was very much into positive methods only and missed the moment when I had to start expecting something from the dog not just agonizing on how to teach it better without stressing him. A session with a behaviorist was a true turning point in my relationship with Yana. I started expecting and correcting and the result? A much happier and calmer dog that is a pleasure to be with and train with.
> 
> ...


Yes-shut down in behavior. Not in obedience-but it might be both. 

I think you can provide a black and white approach without a lot of corrections or corrections that stop the learning. 

I think high expectations and positives are not mutually exclusive. 

I think groundwork and making sure a behavior is understood is key. Proofing and then adding distractions. Before you get to the correction phase. 

In the amount of time that one session lasts-or appears to last on that show, that is not going to happen, I don't think-not in a motivational way. 

My instinct in dealing with bullies is to be the bigger bully.







But I don't think that is a good thing or a good method. I have seen bullies dealt with that way and with kids or dogs it can be dangerous and no one wins. I would prefer to use a win-win and if I needed to, use NILIF at its most restrictive to establish the leadership to lay the foundation for learning. So I try to go opposite of my instinct. I think bully examples are also great ones.

What I think with Cesar is that you are not seeing dogs that have many real issues, other than their owners. And that there are some dogs who may have to stay in a sterile backyard environment for their own safety, or who need an owner who is going to protect them from their own instincts and behaviors. And that is a concept that needs to be explained (as does the other stuff) so that people are not putting themselves at risk in terms of liability, or their dogs at risk of being PTS-and I don't think they've explained that very well. So that is a concern. 

I do have to say, doing the things the way I do (having been more into corrections with poor Kramer-until I saw that they didn't work with him-chow mix) with the types of dogs I have, I am always pleasantly suprised on our outings at how well they are able to take general skills and apply them. High expections, building competencies, structure, reasonable consequences. . . especially one on one. As a pack-it's a lot more work!


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN
> 
> I think high expectations and positives are not mutually exclusive.
> 
> I think groundwork and making sure a behavior is understood is key. Proofing and then adding distractions. Before you get to the correction phase.


What I am trying to say is that positives and corrections are not mutually exclusive either. And at some point you have to get to a correction phase, after all the steps you listed.

I do not like CM learning thru corrections approach but I still think that he delivers a good message about owners taking responsibility for their dogs.

With bullies we definitely disagree







You obviously haven't been in a street fight







I'm not going to wait when a bad boy or girl uses their baseball bat twice, my first instinct is to protect the weaker and abused.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote: With bullies we definitely disagree You obviously haven't been in a street fight I'm not going to wait when a bad boy or girl uses their baseball bat twice, my first instinct is to protect the weaker and abused.


I think you're talking about two totally different things here. Stopping a dog attack or intervening to protect one dog from another isn't training - it's necessary but the priority is helping the weaker dog. Rescuing the weaker dog is important but it doesn't do anything to discourage the behavior in future. In fact, if accompanied by harsh corrections to the attacking dog it can actually escallate future aggressive encounters. 

If we're talking about training - then that's totally different. Bullies bully for the same reason that shy dogs retreat - they are reinforced for doing so. Something about the behavior results in something that is rewarding for them and they are getting something out of it. If we want to change the behavior we have to remove whatever is reinforcing the thing we don't want and substitute a positive behavior that is more reinforcing than the one we're replacing. 

For me one of the most interesting things about training dogs is going beyond the obvious to figure out exactly what is being reinforced and why - and then come up with some alternative.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I mentioned kid bullies because I don't like parallels between kids and dogs, I don't believe they are similar, sorry. So I wasn't talking about dogs here, separating or training, I apologize if I wasn't clear on that.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I think people, as animals, are very similar to dogs.







Just from observing behavior in groups and packs and individuals of both species. I don't expect everyone (or even a majority) to agree with me of course! But while we are not canine/lupine type animals, wow, do we have some similar behaviors (when you turn the volume off so to speak). 

As far as street fights...well, I've had to break up a lot of fights (maybe not in a street) and you push the kid away who wants to fight less. And hope you get the right one! I worked with adjudicated male adolescents, before going into regular schools (where there will still fights) and it was actually a lot of fun. But just like with Chow type dogs, you had to use your head more than your brawn. Because I was not going to overpower those boys, believe me! So I had to come up with other things that would work.

So for some dogs, I still say corrections will not work as well as other things. Yes, they might work-for that minute-but IF I can find something that works better for more long-term solutions, I'd prefer to do that. WHERE the dog can replicate the behavior on their own-without you being there. And there are some dogs that get a slight correction and learn immediately without issue. It may even end up that the long term solution has to involve a type of correction-but the groundwork needs to be done. Which I just don't feel has been done in his work.


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## GSDextrodinaire (Dec 15, 2002)

I have really enjoyed this thread. Really well thought out and communicated posts.

One of the things I was waiting to see posted, and may have been and I just didn't see it is...

we forget that the majority of people watching CM's show, are novice dog owners. They have a situation, maybe, they watch the show in hopes of finding an "easy, inexpensive" fix, and they do not realize they are missing IMPORTANT pieces of the picture as a WHOLE. 

With dogs, and training, there are a LOT of variables to take into consideration, that your novice owner does not see. Think about how many times you see someone walking a dog, on the street, at a dog park or at a pet store, and you can clearly see they are having issues. You watch this display, and you see at least 10 things the "handler" is doing wrong. You are itching to get in there and show them, that the collar is on wrong, too big, the leash isn't condusive to training, they aren't even able to get the dog to focus, and when the dog does do something right, they don't mark the behavior.

Some knowledge is a dangerous thing. When you do not have all the information, it becomes more dangerous for the dog, the handler, and at times others. 

Most of us who are experienced dog owners, trainers, handlers, can watch these shows and know that what is being demonstrated could or would work with our dog(s) and we can see what we should NEVER do with our dog. We have the knowledge behind us, and the experience to pick and choose what works for the dog we have. The general public and the novice owner, does not or has not developed those skills yet.

We are in an economic situation that brings concerned owners with dogs who have issues to the less expensive method for training. Sometimes this is the local petstore training, or the dog shows on TV. Everyone is busy these days, trying to make ends meet, so the quick inexpensive fix is the method they search for. How many times a day do you see these situations and think, "I could be a millionaire, if I could develop a pill that fixes this."?

Some dogs train so well, you would swear they were born as canine einsteins....then there are the dogs that require life long teaching. We, as experienced owners, trainers and handlers know that training is ongoing. It is not a 6 week class, that once ended means our dogs are perfectly trained. We know that owning a dog is a huge commitment, and a major part of that commitment is training. Training that meets our dog's needs, and hopefully our own. 

Dog training is a LOT of common sense, and a bit of knowledge as to cause and reaction. We are a society that says, "because I said so." Some people do not understand that dogs are opportunistic, they all think "what's in it for me?" that is the beginning of the training phase. Through training, the dog learns, "Oh boy! if I do this, I get that!" On the way to that point, all dogs go through the "susperstitious" phase. "What did I do that got me what I wanted?" enter the rolodex of "things" your dog has learned. We, as trainers learn early that when the dog goes through the metal map trying to figure out what we want, that we have reached a milestone. We know we have communicated well, and now we fine tune the communication. We have the patience for this and we have the time, because we know what it takes to BUILD A FOUNDATION for the ongoing training. Your novice owner, usually does not have the time, nor do they recognize the extensive amount of time that goes into teaching behaviors, and substituting behaviors.


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## LedZep (May 4, 2008)

I agree that this is a good thread. 

I am always leary of any self-proclaimed "expert". I sometimes enjoy watching the show, just to feel better about myself and my ability to be a leader and companion to my dog. I view it more as entertainment - seeing so many people that are completely clueless. 

The danger (besides some of the controversial methods) is that implication that in 30 minutes everything is solved and the problems are gone for both dog and owner.


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## krystaltiger (Oct 6, 2004)

I just came across this thread and wanted to add my 2 cents worth as I would probably be considered a "novice" dog owner. Jordan is my first dog, and I know that some on this board would question my getting a GSD as a first dog, while others would praise it.

She is almost 4 years old, and while we had a bumpy start and some hills and valleys, I know that this was the best decision for me - and I strive to keep learning more and more every day.

Anyway...

I have just recently started watching episodes of the Dog Whisperer as I just got the National Geographic Channel and was curious about what all the fuss is.

After TiVoing a number of episodes and catching some on a marathon of shows this Labor day, I can really see both sides of the Pro/Con of Caesar.

Do I think that he presents some good information - Yes. Do I think that everything he says and does should be followed to a tee? Heck no. Kinda like all the millions of books out there - none of them are 100% the way to go.
First, I did notice one thing, that I didn't see mentioned in this thread or in the article, but almost every episode when he comes to the front door - he clearly states he is there for the consultation.

Now, to me, a consultation is just that. You get information from the homeowners about the problem, evaluate the dog, and then take initial action, then proceed from there with the best solution - be it additional training, training of the humans, or whatever. some action on what can be done to correct the behavior

Of course, hopefully everyone of these people on the show are encouraged strongly to seek professional help after most evaluations that require it.

Some things I have seen and like are the importance stressed on getting the dogs exercised. Walks obviously are a great way to engage the dogs physically, and some mentally, and he has even shown that some dogs need to go above and beyond that - like herding dogs. I don't agree that just a 20 minute walk will fix the dog. Jordan and I can go for miles, come home and she will still be full of energy. All dogs are just different and I know I need to find ways to channel it.

For example ine thing that is great for her is the "find it" game. I hide kick ass treats, and she finds them and loves the game.

I don't agree with the choke chains personally, but then I am sure some would have a coronary because I do work with a prong collar. We are working toward flat collar only.

One thing I have seen/heard even before reading the article and thread is that it is possible that more people who are watching CM are seeking professional help in their own situations before just giving up on the dog. So if anything "good" were to come from the show - that may just be it.

Caesar's show is kinda like anything else. here is some information for you the viewing audience. You can take it, leave it, learn from it, or just flip the channel - just like other informational shows.

I know there are a number of great trainers and handlers here, and trust me I wish we all lived closer to one another, as I would like to work with someone more familiar with Shepherds. Our current trainer does, and she has been a great help, but its always good to get other ideas and opinions...just like watching CM - you get one type of info, check out others and do what works best for you and the puppers









Anyway, just wanted to add to this.


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## wesleyb (Jun 11, 2008)

I'll chime in too. I watch the Dog whisperer whenever i have time and use it as a guide. The only things i have taken from the show and used in RL is how alex acts. His show has taught me how to read alex and learn what she is thinking before she does it. 

But all the other stuff is pretty much no brainers and i really feel sorry for some of the owners that he televises.


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## Bernadette (Aug 11, 2008)

I have never seen him hurt a animal or pick them up by the collar .(maybe I missed those shows) I only watch from time to time and have a few recorded. I am probably going to get a lot of remarks but I don't completely agree with everyone's comments about him.I have seen him correct problems that no other trainer would touch or could not get the dog to change.But I also think any point can be argued. If you are shhshing a dog and it works what is the difference in saying a word and it working? Nothing..... different sound that's all... also he does not claim to be a trainer.He is a people trainer.He teaches how a dog response to other dogs .Not the tricks and such and how HUMANS WANT dogs to act.I have never ,ever seen a person run 30 + dogs UNLEASHED and under control except him.I just think nobody is right all the time.And nobody is wrong all the time either.I personally don't use ALL of anyone's training techniques.I use a little of everything.


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## hethir (Sep 25, 2008)

Ok, this maybe a stupid question but I am fairly new to the dog world and am wondering what sorts of things you would suggest to wear a dog out mentally. Do you mean like for instance a Kong stuffed with peanut butter where they have to work to win the reward? If so, are there other kinds of things you can do so they don't get a weekly overdose of treats? Is there a certain toy you would recommend? Or is it like training, playing hide and seek, etc??? Thanks!!


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## CookieTN (Sep 14, 2008)

Interesting article. I'm not a fan of Cesar myself, but I do admire him somewhat. I prefer Victoria Stillwell as a trainer.


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## CookieTN (Sep 14, 2008)

Yeah, and "mind games" like having the dog guess what hand you have the treat in. Cookie loves that trick.
If you feed raw, then you can give the dog a tricky cut of meat and the dog has to figure out how to get all the meat off the bone.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Sarah'sSitaI'll pipe in. CM is very good at reading dogs. He has exquisite timing. He is very good at handling dogs.


I don't agree that he is good at reading dogs. I have not seen a large number of episodes but in the ones I have seen I often don't see the same thing he is describing as far as the dog's mood or behavior. In some episodes where he says a dog is being "calm and submissive" for example I often see a dog who is stressed, too exhausted to resist, fearful or shut down. I have seen him label a dog's behavior as "aggressive and dominant" when what I see is an untrained unruly adolescent.

I have to applaud everyone on this forum though. This is the most civil Cesar-related thread I've seen! I belong to some other forums and things always degrade by the second or third page on the Cesar threads elsewhere.


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## SuzyE (Apr 22, 2005)

I Named one of my dog's after Cesar millan.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

I agree with Chicagocanine. The episode with the beagle puppy that grabbed everything and chewed everything drove me nuts.



> Quote:I belong to some other forums and things always degrade by the second or third page on the Cesar threads elsewhere.


I think we've been through that before on here.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

CookieTN said:


> Interesting article. I'm not a fan of Cesar myself, but I do admire him somewhat. I prefer Victoria Stillwell as a trainer.


I have watched her show and not seen much to take from it. She seems to be a "bit" pompous and "know-it-all".


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Chicagocanine said:


> I don't agree that he is good at reading dogs. I have not seen a large number of episodes but in the ones I have seen I often don't see the same thing he is describing as far as the dog's mood or behavior. In some episodes where he says a dog is being "calm and submissive" for example I often see a dog who is stressed, too exhausted to resist, fearful or shut down. I have seen him label a dog's behavior as "aggressive and dominant" when what I see is an untrained unruly adolescent.
> 
> I have to applaud everyone on this forum though. This is the most civil Cesar-related thread I've seen! I belong to some other forums and things always degrade by the second or third page on the Cesar threads elsewhere.


What might be the signs that a dog is "stressed"? One obedience trainer in our area (No CA) once told me that because my dog was sniffing the ground on a "down stay" that he was "stressed". I thought he was sniffing the ground because he wanted to sniff and something on the ground smelled good.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Codmaster, both are true. This is where the handler needs to learn their dog's body language to decipher whether it is a sniff for sniff's sake or if it is stress. A very wide, tight lipped pant is stress, panting hard is stress, sniffing is stress, looking away is stress, licking the lips is stress.. These are not ALWAYS signs of stress but good indicators.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

codmaster said:


> What might be the signs that a dog is "stressed"? One obedience trainer in our area (No CA) once told me that because my dog was sniffing the ground on a "down stay" that he was "stressed". I thought he was sniffing the ground because he wanted to sniff and something on the ground smelled good.


Could be one or the other. Can't say without being there but it's entirely possible that the dog was stressed. Down stay with distraction is one of the most stressful exercises for a beginner dog to do.


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## Josiebear (Oct 16, 2006)

Did anyone see that episode recently where Cesar was dealing with a horse and when the horse owner was using the whip Daddy held his head up and started growling? Cesar snapped him out of it?. Even though people bash on the guy's method, he sure gets dogs. I may not agree with everything he does but i have used some of his techniques and it has helped me alot. He had helped me to teach Josie to walk nicely on leash, so the man obviously did something right .


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

I know the original post is old, but I have to say I disagree with most of the observations made in it.

Cesar uses forceful methods on some dogs that I wouldn't, but the writer in the OP is not seeing the reality of what's going on.


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