# Ayla ~ Herding Foundation & Stock Manners



## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Now that my little girl is six months old, she was formally evaluated and passed her HIC eval last week.  Let the journey begin....

Her written critique was pretty darn exciting (if I do say so myself), and probably the best part is that she shows "Medium Eye", which isn't terribly common in GSD's - most are loose-eyed. My other GSD works loose-eyed, so this is very exciting to me. Readily corrected, works silently (no nonsense barking), and other really promising comments. This week we're starting real lessons, and I couldn't be happier.



















Since she's young, we'll be training formally once a week. On off-days, we'll be continuing work on livestock manners, at home and at friends' properties. Her poultry manners are improving, though she isn't calm enough to go into the coop and collect eggs yet (that one takes a while, but we're getting closer). The goal is for her to watch me, which is a pretty big feat when feathery lunches are squawking around you. It's a good sign when the birds settle down and start to eat when the dog in the pen - they can tell when a dog is bonkers, and when the dog is under control.










We also started the slow, patient process of acclimating her to our LGD (livestock guardian donkey). It's a two-way street - the donkey needs to learn that she's an "acceptable" canine, not a coyote or stray dog. She needs to learn that the donkey is un-herdable, and must be left alone. This isn't something to rush, so right now the goal is calm sniffing through the fence.










This will be the second GSD I've trained for herding work. It's 90% exciting, but 10% daunting when I think that we're starting from square one, especially when I look back at all of the obstacles and struggles I went through with my first dog (pictured below).... who is now sensible and trustworthy around all creatures great and small. I'm very proud of what I did with my first dog, but I have much bigger hopes and goals for Ayla.... wish us luck. :wub:


----------



## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

That is so awesome!


----------



## CindyMDBecker (Feb 22, 2013)

Very impressive!


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Superstar gorgeous girl. She is going to have a very exciting future.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I have no idea what "medium and loose eye" is.  

But love the pics, love to see GSDs doing the herding work.

Congrats on a very promising start!


----------



## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I have no idea what "medium and loose eye" is.


In a nutshell, it's a measure of how intensely the dog stares at the sheep - exerting pressure with their eyes, to make them move or cooperate. The best example of a strong-eyed breed is a working border collie. 

The other end of the spectrum, loose-eyed breeds ("upright workers") use body pressure, barking, gripping (or ankle/hock nipping like a cattle dog). They don't stare down the stock, and tend to be more physical. They can be significantly more challenging to work with small groups of livestock and/or in small spaces, like pens, or sorting.

So a GSD that is showing some intense "eye" is really nice, since it means that the dog has that instinct as a tool to use. You can't train "eye" into a dog, it's either there or it isn't. The more tools they have in their toolbox (so to speak), the more adaptable and useful they may be, in a variety of situations. Sometimes eye is enough. Sometimes it's not. But adaptability is awesome when you're dealing with livestock, where every animal can be a wildcard.

~~~

Thank you guys for the nice comments, it's really nice to have some people to share our stories with. When I get excited about working sheep, most people think I'm nuts.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Thank you for the explanation. If I ever have the opportunity would love to learn about herding more. 

Keep on sharing!


----------



## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Progress continues, even in the recent crud weather we're enjoying in the Midwest. 

Like every dog I've ever owned, she has decided that the straw shed & hay bale piles are simply the best thing in the world. Obviously, I buy them just for her. 



















This morning I was so happy, she did her first "Real Work". By my definition, that means she helped me get something done, and made it easier than me doing it alone. The geese do not belong in the garage, but they try to sneak in when it's cold so they can steal corn, poop on the floor, and cause other mischief. We were able to group them into an orderly cluster and push them into the back of the building, so I could open the door and evict them back outdoors where they belong. If you look closely, you can see that her lead is loose. Not by much - but I'll take it. She's just starting to develop the confidence to stand still (quietly) and maintain eye contact, without freaking out the birds. 

Trials and precise maneuvers are wonderful, but sometimes it's the simple day-to-day help that means the most. How I love this little dog.


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I'm also enjoying your posts!I can't think of any better life for our dogs than to be our helpers and companions.


----------



## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Workin' Woolies in the snow, just shy of 8 months old. 

Two primary goals right now.... 1. Learning self control, and 2. Building calm confidence.

It's wonderful to watch a 40lb puppy come into her own, and understand that she can control large animals that are 3-4 times her size. You can literally see the "Aha!" moments when instinct and obedience combine, and good things happen. 

Off the stock, we're working on the all-important 'Stand' around distractions, and giving commands in a quiet voice to encourage her to listen closely for all verbal cues.


----------



## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

This week, we made some major progress in poultry manners. Now we're starting to practice self control, off-leash and outside of the pens.


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Wonderful!She's really doing greatCoincidentally,I let Samson outside off leash even though there were several turkeys out back in the field.He was pretty geeked up since he'd been watching them from inside.He started running but stopped on command and didn't follow when the turkeys ran.We can both be proud today


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

dogma13 said:


> Wonderful!She's really doing great
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's is great I don't think mine would ever hear me unless I had a bull horn but maybe then not. There is someone that does sheep herding close by when we are closer to being ready would love to try it.


----------



## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

dogma13 said:


> Wonderful!She's really doing greatCoincidentally,I let Samson outside off leash even though there were several turkeys out back in the field.He was pretty geeked up since he'd been watching them from inside.He started running but stopped on command and didn't follow when the turkeys ran.We can both be proud today


 Nice. Recall off wildlife is _hard_. Good Boy!



Jenny720 said:


> That's is great I don't think mine would ever hear me unless I had a bull horn but maybe then not. There is someone that does sheep herding close by when we are closer to being ready would love to try it.


Give it a try, for sure. We need more GSDs out there.


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Looking forward to more of Ayla's adventures and training!


----------



## dldolan (Aug 28, 2015)

I'm so glad I found this thread! I have a million questions. We no longer have a herding person (for lessons) around here, so I'm on my own. I have a 11 month old GSD, who was introduced to sheep at 5 months, but then nothing. I got her after our meat goats all went to fair, so she never got to meet them as a pup. We just got our spring goats, and will be keeping two of the females permanently. I'd like to train her to help me move them to and from an electric pen a few times a week. I'll train one of the female goats to lead, but would like Mina to help, and stay near them while they are in the electrified moveable pen.

On lead, she has been allowed to come near them in their pen and sniff. One of the whethers (4.5 months) lowered his head and stomped at her and she backed off right away. She did not show any predatory inclination, and just seemed interested in sniffing around.

Any "next steps" ideas would be welcome. For now, since they are still little, the four goats are in a 1/3 acre contained pasture with a shed.
Should I bring her in the pasture with me on a long lead, sit calmly watching and have her sit with me until it is not a big deal and she is calm? OR???

Last bit of information is that i have a Border collie/Anatolian mix 4 year old who has been trained to run the deer out of the vineyard. Mina has helped him twice. I'm worried that the goats act too much like deer, so have only let him sniff the goat through the fence, for fear of him chasing them. Suggestions? 

I realize that I clearly need to train one dog at a time, and might as well start with my big goofy GSD puppy, but thought I'd ask about the other dog, too.

Thanks for any help you can give. Dawn


----------



## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

@dldolan - I would make the trip to see Debbie Pollard in Vacaville. She is experienced with German Shepherds and would be much better at getting you started than trying out advice online.


----------



## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Hi Dawn, I agree 100% with mspiker's recommendation to work through foundation (and beyond) with a qualified trainer that has experience with multiple types of livestock. 

There are two things that are almost always needed, to reach the goal you described. 

1. You need "dog-broke" sheep (or goats) in order to train a new dog. They're calmer, aren't spooky, and are as predictable as possible. These are animals that respect a working dog, generally don't challenge the dog at every turn, but aren't terrified of the dog. 

2. You need a solid, predictable dog to "dog break" your own animals. Your instructor can give you more feedback/input on this. Your goats have to learn to respect dogs, and the best teacher is a confident stockdog that can train them, using only as much force as necessary.

After both of those pieces of the puzzle come together, you should be able to safely begin working your own dog on your own livestock. Green dog + wild goats = chaos at best, likely injuries or worse, unless the handler is very savvy with lots of experience and has FAST reflexes. I (personally) do not allow my dog to move our goats during later stages of pregnancy, or after kidding, until the kids are 100% weaned. Even the typically mild does can act erratically/aggressively if the dog enters the pen with their kid. If they need to be moved, I put the dog inside and bribe the goats with a grain bucket. (Note - plenty of farmers use their dogs during lambing/kidding, but since I only have a few animals and my dogs are not impeccably trained, the stress and risk aren't worth it, to me). Some individual goats can be stubborn or aggressive (as I'm sure you're well aware). I sold an otherwise nice quality buck because he was moody and unpredictable during certain seasons. Too risky, too annoying. 

RE: Chasing deer, I don't allow it. It has the potential to confuse the ironclad "NO CHASING" rules that pertain to chickens, cats, etc. I give a pretty firm leash correction for deer chasing attempts, they are absolutely thick in the parks around here and we encounter them regularly.

Do keep us posted if you're able to connect with the trainer recommended, I'd love to hear updates! There aren't enough goat keepers in the world, they're such interesting critters.....


----------



## dldolan (Aug 28, 2015)

Thanks to you both! I wrote Debbie this morning, but it says she is not accepting new clients on her website. Hopefully she'll email back, and if she isn't taking clients, maybe she knows someone up near me. If not, I'll need advice, for sure!

Totally makes sense about the young dog, trained stock, and than an experienced dog to work my young goats. They are 4.5 months old, and not super goofy due to the good job of the farmer down the road I got them from. They are used to his big blocky lab and rat terrier being near them, so aren't too fearful of my dogs, and came right over to the fence where they were to see them. 

I need the dogs to keep the deer & turkeys out of the vineyard, which is actually the #1 priority for me. They also keep the raccoons and opossum away, and deter other predators from my Marans breeding operation, so they are working dogs in that sense. As for the goats, at a very minimum, I need the dogs to respect them. I will train the goats to lead so I can move them into hot fencing during a few hours per day. Preferably, the dogs would help guard while the goats are in the electric fencing during the day (back into their main pasture at night). Best case, Mina would help me move them!

I need to think in baby steps, I know.


----------



## dldolan (Aug 28, 2015)

BTW, I grew up in Waunakee and Stoughton! Left WI after college at UW-Madison, but still love it when I go.


----------



## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

Debbie's website (from when I have looked) seems out of date (upcoming events in like 2011). If she doesn't respond to email, I would call. I know my herding instructor rarely checks email.

And from all the times I have asked about trainers around the Bay (for friends), she is the one that gets recommended - especially with German Shepherds.


----------



## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

dldolan said:


> BTW, I grew up in Waunakee and Stoughton! Left WI after college at UW-Madison, but still love it when I go.


That is my alma mater as well. 

It's much easier to teach a dog to respect a different species (don't chase it, don't bite it, don't bark at it) than teaching it to work/herd them. "Don't touch the cookie!" is easy to teach. "Touch the cookie, pick it up, dunk it in the milk, set it on the plate, but don't eat the cookie" is much, much harder. 

It was explained to me, like this - 



> Imagine a dog’s brain flooding with the color “Blue” when you give it a command it knows away from livestock, such as “Stand/Stay.” Livestock stimulates predatory urges in a dog, and the dog’s brain floods with the color “Red.” When you say “Stand/Stay” to a beginner herding dog in front of sheep, “Blue” PLUS “Red” EQUALS “Purple.” Your dog doesn’t recognize the meaning of “Purple” yet and doesn’t obey.


 ^ Quoted from another trainer's website, not my words, but it's a great way to explain it. It's hard to describe in words/online, but it's unmistakable, when you see it.


----------



## dldolan (Aug 28, 2015)

mspiker03 said:


> Debbie's website (from when I have looked) seems out of date (upcoming events in like 2011). If she doesn't respond to email, I would call. I know my herding instructor rarely checks email.
> 
> And from all the times I have asked about trainers around the Bay (for friends), she is the one that gets recommended - especially with German Shepherds.


I am glad to hear that! I will call if she doesn't email back. Good advice.


WI Backpacker: Good analogy. I like the color thing---that seems true. Right now both dogs will stay where I put them outside the goat fence. If the goats move out of sight, my older dog will look to me (can I move to see them), but Mina can only take it so long and will then follow them down the fence. She does recall when asked to "go back", so it is mildly encouraging that she'll obey, albeit slowly. If I keep calling out, "stay" every few minutes while I am cleaning the goat shed, she does better. 

Red is hard...! Purple confusing. I get it. Doing the same training I use for the mailman, UPS driver, gas guy, etc might be a good start, but that is countering any protectiveness in their nature, not dealing with prey drive. I use "leave it" for my older dog if he spies a chicken who flew over into the vineyard, but I haven't done tons of work with her on that. Mostly just to leave my shoes alone! (She is a bit of a hoarded--we know to look in her crate for missing...anything.)

Thanks. I feel better being able to talk this through!


----------



## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Some pictures from last week, working on a controlled "Stand" out of motion. 




























These pictures make me pretty happy, because you can see all four paws (and all four hooves, in the case of the sheep) on the ground. Motion actually _stops.... _which is a big deal, especially for this little girl..... my 90MPH, flying-four-off-the-floor, wild child. We're getting there. :wub:


----------



## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

More progress this week.... Better pace, more reliable 'Stand', and getting calmer working in her less-comfortable direction, counter-clockwise.


----------



## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Ayla looks great! I'd love to see what Bash would do on sheep, but I worry he would just see them as dinner. Maybe one day I'll get brave and see what he can do (with an instructor, of course).


----------



## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

GypsyGhost said:


> Ayla looks great! I'd love to see what Bash would do on sheep, but I worry he would just see them as dinner. Maybe one day I'll get brave and see what he can do (with an instructor, of course).


I was hesitant but an instructor took Della in three weeks ago. She was so good, no barking, loose leash, watching the sheep, and listening to the instructor. She was on lead the whole time, she didn't own the sheep but said she would have had her off leash if we were at her farm. My instructor has Aussies and was pleasantly surprised by Dell. Hoping we can continue.


----------



## osito23 (Feb 17, 2014)

Thank you for sharing - I've enjoyed reading this thread  She is really looking grown up.


----------



## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Gypsy, Karen - go for it! It'd be great to see more GSD's, there aren't too many (at least in this area). 

Five years ago when I was training my other dog, we were the minority.








Fast forward to now, deja vu - one of these things is (still) not like the others.  









Osito, thanks! I agree, she's definitely growing up.


----------



## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

GypsyGhost said:


> Ayla looks great! I'd love to see what Bash would do on sheep, but I worry he would just see them as dinner. Maybe one day I'll get brave and see what he can do (with an instructor, of course).


I suspect mine saw dinner; she kept trying to cut one out of the flock! (Nothing wrong with her prey drive...) She FINALLY quit doing that toward the end of her second slot in the pen, but she left us in the dark as to her potential. I was told to try her again with an instructor, because there may be something there despite her not showing herding instinct immediately.

It's on my list of things to do, to get her to an instructor for another evaluation. 

WI, I noticed that too: the shortage of GSDs. I was told about one WL breeder and one SL breeder in my area who are fairly active. The general tone at the event I attended, though, was that standard required equipment for herding was a border collie.


----------



## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

This week was a really good one, made nice progress. We're moving beyond circling/distance/reverse basics, on to walking in (deliberate) directions.

Her job is to keep the sheep with me, at a sane pace, wearing (back and forth, not in a full circle). Some really nice things happened this week.










The hardest thing right now, for me, is developing trust in the dog. Trusting her enough to turn my back and walk away, having confidence she will be correct and bring the sheep to follow, in line, behind me. Trusting she won't have an outburst of puppy zoomies or go "bowling" when she knows I'm not watching. For now, I'm cheating.... by looking over my shoulder quite a bit. But she's starting to earn that trust.










And look at this.... A beautiful, deliberate, controlled pause/stand. From a 10 month old puppy.


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Lolol!


----------



## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

dogma13 said:


> Lolol!


 @dogma13, next time I need to drink more coffee before posting. I'm pretty sure I managed to link the puppy album instead of lesson pictures when I first posted this. WHOOPS. I shouldn't use Photobucket till the coffee pot is empty..... 

Also, if anyone is curious, some of the ewes were recently bred, which explains those fashionable chalk marks. :grin2:


----------



## Chai (Dec 11, 2014)

WIBackpacker said:


> In a nutshell, it's a measure of how intensely the dog stares at the sheep - exerting pressure with their eyes, to make them move or cooperate. The best example of a strong-eyed breed is a working border collie.
> 
> The other end of the spectrum, loose-eyed breeds ("upright workers") use body pressure, barking, gripping (or ankle/hock nipping like a cattle dog). They don't stare down the stock, and tend to be more physical. They can be significantly more challenging to work with small groups of livestock and/or in small spaces, like pens, or sorting.


This is fascinating! I see working BC's at some local places where they try and herd my dog and I as we walk through the fields. They seem to be able to stare right into your soul :crazy: they go really still and low, and I find myself moving involuntarily. But I also see working cattle dogs (like the Pilbara Working Dogs on fb) and they work sooo differently, very physical.

I haven't tried it with my pup but I love following it because it's just so interesting. Keep up the great work! The dogs looks great


----------



## Mudypoz (Mar 3, 2016)

dldolan said:


> We no longer have a herding person (for lessons) around here, so I'm on my own.


Have you talked to Joyce Shephard? Or is she no longer around? I used to take herding lessons from her with my ACD. I'm in Sonoma County too :smile2:


----------



## Niexist (Feb 19, 2016)

This is very cool to see! My mom raised border collies when I was young, and her dog Julie was extremely highly ranked, like #2 in the country at one point. They have an intensity that isn't matched by any other kind of dog I have ever seen. I'm not sure how the breed is doing these days now that they are AKC recognized, and the dogs look like this.










Ah, another lovely working breed ruined by dog shows.


----------



## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

@Niexist, actually the ("real") working BC people - the ones that run farms and the others that compete in ABCA/ISDS trials - don't really care about the AKC ring anymore. They've separated themselves. The ABCA is a completely separate registration, and they go so far as to DE-register any dog that is exhibited to Champion status in the AKC ring. No questions asked, they're off the registry, and their offspring are ineligible for ABCA registration as well. They have a complete and total divide. They will not accept any AKC pedigree as proof of breed, and if you want to obtain ABCA registration from non-ABCA lineage, the only way to do it is through performance in certain herding venues. 

If you'd like to go into this in more detail maybe a new thread can be started? I say that with total politeness, but I'm more than a little bit weary of this topic.... The two dog venues I enjoy most, herding and agility, are dominated by BC's and it's nearly impossible to attend a seminar or workshop without this topic coming up and being argued for hours on end. I don't even own one, but I'm inundated with their breed politics constantly.


----------



## dldolan (Aug 28, 2015)

Mudypoz said:


> Have you talked to Joyce Shephard? Or is she no longer around? I used to take herding lessons from her with my ACD. I'm in Sonoma County too :smile2:


I just did a herding instinct "test" with Debbie at Herding 4 Ewe in Vacaville (CA). There were five dogs there, 2 GSD, 1 BC, 1 McNab, and my mix breed Anatolian Shepard/BC cross. So cool! My GSD was calm and collected, and although only 12 months, was attentive, relaxed with the sheep, but intentional about it. The light bulb went off after just a few minutes, and you could see her thinking about it.The trainer said she showed a lot of good instincts, and is the type of dog for actual herding work that she likes to work with. I was pleased. My other guy is clearly a guardian, and we'll keep him doing what he does now...keeping deer out of the vineyard and coyotes warned away. He was cool to watch as well, though clearly he didn't understand why the sheep didn't jump over the fence when he charged them, like the deer do! A great experience. Cool to watch the other dogs and listen to her explanations about how they were (or weren't) thinking and acting.


----------



## dldolan (Aug 28, 2015)

WIBackpacker, do you have more photos of Ayla? I'm looking at body language now. The gal who did the test encouraged me to take Mina in with the goats, and (even if I help by waving at them) get "her" to move them a bit in a direction we pick. Just so she understands that moving them off with some pressure and intent is what the goal is (for now). So, I've been taking her in the goat pen for 3-5 minutes, having her be successful, then taking her out. Concerns: My 6 month old baby Boer goats (females have horns, males are tipped for fair) are so friendly that they want to come right up to me, and are not afraid of her. One female will touch noses with her, one male will sniff her, but then stomp and threaten to butt her, the other female doesn't want Mina near, so will ndeavor to butt with intent, and the other male ignores her. Mina is very relaxed around them, and would probably sniff them, then look for poop and ignore them if I let her. Once we start "moving them" (I'm waving my leash while telling her "Forward" and "stop", then she is more attentive, and gets that we are working. Any suggestions? The little dude goats go to fair in 3 weeks, but I don't want the big one to scare her by butting her...or should I let him so she's respectful? How do you handle (mildly) aggressive sheep/goats with Ayla?
Thanks!


----------



## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

@dldolan, do you have the ability to take short video clips, maybe with a cell phone? I started picking up more quickly on some of my (human handler) errors watching video of my lesson work afterward. Everything tends to go very fast during those 3-5 minutes, doesn't it?

We (instructor and I) decided that she won't be let loose in with my goats or geese until she has a very solid foundation in place. My goats aren't ideal "training" animals either, they're too people-friendly, too pushy, one is old and grumpy, etc. My older dog formed some bad habits growing up with lots of freedom and I'm trying to lay a better foundation With Ayla. Honestly I'm not sure what I would do in your situation. Maybe try and take a few video clips, there are some posters here that may be able to offer insight. 

I do have more pics, I'll try and upload some more later this week.


----------



## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

PS - I'm so excited for you and your progress! It's neat to find another goat owning shepherd soul.


----------



## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

dldolan said:


> WIBackpacker, do you have more photos of Ayla? I'm looking at body language now.....


 @dldolan, here are a few more that show snapshots of human/dog body posture. Keep in mind she's a puppy and we have _lots_ to improve on.  I can't recommend enough, get someone to take video. You can watch yourself and see where things go right (or wrong), watch when the sheep (or goats) turn their head, which happens right before they change direction, watch how your dog responds to little tiny changes in your body movement. I went to a seminar last month and we spent hours critiquing split-second snapshots, projected on a wall, while the instructor showed us where and when things happen.


Handler walks, dog keeps sheep with the handler, circling isn't allowed anymore.


























Practicing Stand/Good Girl. She's still dragging a long line, but it's intended to be an emergency brake only. Multiple times during a lesson, she's asked to Stand so that I can approach, pet, praise, touch her collar, and then let her go back to work. This prevents bad "Keep Away!" games, and so she doesn't associate Stopping = End of Game. Good Girl.










And now, some less-great moments, for the sake of comparison..... 








Her eyes were darting all over the place and she was fidgeting during this "Stand". The sheep knew it, and two of them are already considering making a run for it. You wouldn't guess that, unless you look at the sheep.... but there it is.








And above, bad flanking/trying to cut in. She's trying to cut across instead of go back around correctly. Woolly traffic jam.

Sometimes the best way to critique yourself is to watch the stock (not the dog). And a final disclaimer, these pictures were taken during an absolutely miserable 38 degree rainy morning. Gotta love the Midwest.


----------



## dldolan (Aug 28, 2015)

These are great photos! Thank you so much for posting them! I like the comments you have made, and am reviewing the photos daily! 
I am wondering if goats are tons harder to move than sheep? They are not very concerned about her. I need to swing the long line she is on to get them to move about 50% of the time. 20% of the time, one turns around to try and butt her (I prevent this!) and maybe 30% of the time they move out pretty well in front of her while she ranges behind on command and we get them nicely into the corral. Whew! Yesterday we had one of those great days! Today, one goat just wanted to sniff her, one moved off her (and my!) pressure, with two standing their ground a lot. I settles for getting them all to take steps in the right direction and we stopped. Good girl! She is mellow when we enter the pen, and will touch noses or lick them until we start working. Jeesh. Puppy still, right? And young goats, so I'm very careful not to spend more than 4-5 minutes at a time.

Are you using the traditional commands? Away? Go bye? Walk on? I've added "wait" and "all done".


----------



## dldolan (Aug 28, 2015)

Here is a shot with her and my goats today before we started working. Also with the assessment trainer on her sheep.


----------



## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

dldolan said:


> I am wondering if goats are tons harder to move than sheep?


 
When I trained my older dog on goats (instructor's goats, before mine), we she worked only on goats (no sheep) for about 4 months. They move differently, they're slower, they don't group together as tightly, the dog has to work harder to keep them together, they're more stubborn. Some of them have a nasty habit of teasing the dogs through the fence (mine do), which gets the dog revved up. Tica learned to drive on goats, and that's still how she moves them (not gathering).


I'm not experienced enough to know what will work best for others, but our goats definitely don't see the dog as a buddy. I'm the good cop, the dog is the bad cop, the enforcer. But I only use the dog when the goats need to be penned for meds, or to corral escapes (which doesn't really happen any more, since I changed my fencing), they don't interact every day. It might be worth describing the dynamic of your goat herd & your dog on the BC Boards, to get a few experienced opinions. 




> Are you using the traditional commands? Away? Go bye? Walk on? I've added "wait" and "all done".


 
We were just talking about picking commands. Right now, we're only using/proofing "Stand", "Wait", "Walk-Up", "Here". 


I'm planning on using "Go Bye", but haven't picked an Away-To-Me. Since I'm already using "Wait" and her name is *AY*-la, instructor wants something that's phonetically completely different, even when shouted from a distance. 


I'll probably use "About" (emphasis: "*HUH*-bout!"), but I'm not certain, yet.


Watching them work on their own stock is so cool. Your dog is a lucky pup.


----------



## dldolan (Aug 28, 2015)

Worrisome, as the goats are young and also the dog, which is generally NOT good, right?  But I guess we are all learning together, and I am not pressuring either the goats or the dog. Sigh. It seems to be going alright, so slowly, slowly we advance! If she can "only" help me to pen them up, that will be awesome!


----------



## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

dldolan said:


> Worrisome, as the goats are young and also the dog, which is generally NOT good, right? * But I guess we are all learning together,* and I am not pressuring either the goats or the dog. Sigh. It seems to be going alright, so slowly, slowly we advance! If she can "only" help me to pen them up, that will be awesome!


For sure. At the end of the day, if she helps you accomplish what needs to be done, you have a working dog, and that's what matters. Not many dogs in this day and age get to do that. 

This month we also started introducing her to ducks & geese. She's not allowed to chase the chickens at home, so she's slowly being acclimated to the fact some birds are different than others. For the first exposure, she was on a long line, walking around them in wide circles, and learning that they can be moved/grouped like sheep. They'll respond to pressure, they'll move away, they'll stay together. For the most part.


I don't think trialing with ducks will be a priority for us, but since I'm aiming for greater versatility with her, why not shoot for the moon?


----------



## dldolan (Aug 28, 2015)

WIBackpacker said:


> I don't think trialing with ducks will be a priority for us, but since I'm aiming for greater versatility with her, why not shoot for the moon?


So cool! Duck herding is neat-o! Was Ayla calm about it?

Unfortunately, my other dog taught Mina that if a chicken flies over the fence into "their territory", they are food. Oops, no helping with the chickens! My previous chickens were safe as he learned to help me get them in at night and not to mess with them as a puppy, but when I started a new flock up in a new pen, he did not see them in the same way as when I had them in the lower coop. Another person told me her dog also had the same issue...when the chickens moved locations, they were no longer safe. He'll still guard from raccoons and hawks, but that is less about guarding the chickens, and more about territoriality. 

Anyway, both dogs have jobs, and as you say, they are lucky! I think Mina will do fine with helping me with the goats. Eventually.


----------



## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

dldolan said:


> So cool! Duck herding is neat-o! Was Ayla calm about it?
> 
> Unfortunately, my other dog taught Mina that if a chicken flies over the fence into "their territory", they are food. Oops, no helping with the chickens! My previous chickens were safe as he learned to help me get them in at night and not to mess with them as a puppy, but when I started a new flock up in a new pen, he did not see them in the same way as when I had them in the lower coop. Another person told me her dog also had the same issue...when the chickens moved locations, they were no longer safe. He'll still guard from raccoons and hawks, but that is less about guarding the chickens, and more about territoriality.
> 
> Anyway, both dogs have jobs, and as you say, they are lucky! I think Mina will do fine with helping me with the goats. Eventually.


She was initially kind of incredulous when we walked into the duck arena, I think she was expecting me to tell her to lie down / leave it (a la chicken yard mode). But she "clicked" into gear after a few slow circles. I think ducks and geese will be our backburner/side project, after sheep and goats.

I think it is an ongoing life lesson, setting parameters and teaching the dog when to generalize, and when not to. I agree, and understand how hard it is. I want chickens to be off limits 100% of the time, my geese are off limits when they're in with the chickens but NOT when they're alone and in a place they shouldn't be, but wild geese are ALWAYS off limits, and so on. 

A lot of people I train with have had chicken-killers that turned out okay, so there is hope. .


----------



## dldolan (Aug 28, 2015)

We had a break-through last night! My nephew called me and asked if I could come with Mina to help him pen the goats as they didn't want to go in, and he'd been at if for 20 minutes and it was almost dark. The goats were very, very naughty, and we drove them down the pasture three times as one would break away and run back up like crazy, taking the others. Mina immediately was on this, but she is on a long lead, so couldn't get ahead of them to head them off. But by the last trip down, she was moving back and forth behind them to keep them going, and saw it and cut one off before he could turn. All four goats successfully penned! My nephew (14) now thinks Mina is a rock star! So cool! :grin2:


----------



## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

dldolan said:


> We had a break-through last night! My nephew called me and asked if I could come with Mina to help him pen the goats as they didn't want to go in, and he'd been at if for 20 minutes and it was almost dark. The goats were very, very naughty, and we drove them down the pasture three times as one would break away and run back up like crazy, taking the others. Mina immediately was on this, but she is on a long lead, so couldn't get ahead of them to head them off. * But by the last trip down, she was moving back and forth behind them to keep them going, and saw it and cut one off before he could turn. All four goats successfully penned!* My nephew (14) now thinks Mina is a rock star! So cool! :grin2:


Super! That's awesome, I hope it's the beginning of a long and useful partnership for you and Mina. I love watching dogs that figure out how the stock moves, anticipate the naughtiness, and put an end to it.


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I enjoyed everyone's stories photos so cool!!!We had our first sheep herding experience which I posted a video in another thread. I was previously reading the threads on the evaluation test trying to get an idea what to expect. I was nervous and voiced concerns with instructor did not know how he would react to sheep or being corrected by a stranger with a paddle/ stick. Lol he did great though. He did get ramped up when one sheep left the group but got the sheep back quick. She was very good keep him from getting to close which he tried a few times. The instructor knew I wanted to take lessons if he passed and was good at keeping him from starting any bad habits. a few lessons in the small pen and then will move to the big field. They say sheep herding helps with dog reactivity I do hope it builds confidence so he is not as tense being near a strange dog then just behaved. I happy with my herding instructor she is breeds/shows trains Swiss mountain dogs, trains in agility, behaviorist and also does boarding in her home. Looking forward to hearing everyone's herding experience stories!

List of some the commands we will be using-


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

dldolan said:


> We had a break-through last night! My nephew called me and asked if I could come with Mina to help him pen the goats as they didn't want to go in, and he'd been at if for 20 minutes and it was almost dark. The goats were very, very naughty, and we drove them down the pasture three times as one would break away and run back up like crazy, taking the others. Mina immediately was on this, but she is on a long lead, so couldn't get ahead of them to head them off. But by the last trip down, she was moving back and forth behind them to keep them going, and saw it and cut one off before he could turn. All four goats successfully penned! My nephew (14) now thinks Mina is a rock star! So cool!


You must of been very proud! Mina needs a pink bandanna now!


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

WIBackpacker said:


> dldolan said:
> 
> 
> > Worrisome, as the goats are young and also the dog, which is generally NOT good, right? * But I guess we are all learning together,* and I am not pressuring either the goats or the dog. Sigh. It seems to be going alright, so slowly, slowly we advance! If she can "only" help me to pen them up, that will be awesome!
> ...


Why not! Great photo! 
We have wild turkeys that sometimes visit our yard max was intrigued as a young pup


----------



## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Jenny, welcome to sheep addicts anonymous. Very excited for you! 


Progress for us last month - We did a looooot of walking, turning, walking, turning, to square up her flanks. It's coming along. On her initial gather, she still prefers to start going Bye, which is fine. Circling is officially not allowed any more. Even though a little bit of circling can be allowed/excused for beginning dogs in test classes, she doesn't need it any longer (it's almost a crutch because it's easy and the dog gets comfortable), so she gets verbally corrected and "pushed" out with body pressure if she tries to circle instead of wearing. This makes it infinitely easier to move around and walk in straighter lines. 

Check this out... she *does* have eye. :wub:










She's getting so much better at keeping correct distance when my back is turned. Dogs are so in tune with our body posture, it's a big step forward for them to be correct around livestock when your body is directed away from them. 












And our proudest moment last month, I sent her around on her off-side (Away, counter clockwise), while walking away from her. Zero body pressure. She did a beautiful gather, and brought them to me at a trot.





















After the lesson above, we moved up to a bigger arena and now we're having even more fun. Last week she worked sheep (in the new, larger pen) with another dog inside, and next to the pen where the guardian llama resides during lessons. Besides an initial "Holy Cripes Batman... DID YOU SEE THIS THING?!" stare at the llama and then back at me, she got down to business and didn't bother the fencelines or the set-out BC in the arena.

Have I mentioned how happy I am to find others traveling this crazy journey? Post away, guys!


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Thank you and I like that SAA!!! Never knew would be this exciting! Great photos and wow she does have eye- she must have border collie dna in there somewhere lol!!! She looks like she is doing fantastic! Llama all kinds of exposure is great! It is going to be a interesting and very exciting journey for sure!


----------



## dldolan (Aug 28, 2015)

WIBackpacker said:


> Jenny, welcome to sheep addicts anonymous. *AND GOATS!* Very excited for you!
> 
> And our proudest moment last month, I sent her around on her off-side (Away, counter clockwise), while walking away from her. Zero body pressure. She did a beautiful gather, and brought them to me at a trot.
> 
> ...


I have that reaction to llamas as well! They are huge! :grin2:
Great work. She looks SO great doing her gather!! Hopefully we will advance to this stage. Naughty young goats...some days cooperative, but often NOT. Like last night. Three times down the pasture kicking and snorting and breaking away, only to follow me in very quietly when I put Mina away. Dufuses. She is doing well, but I still am keeping her on a long line i hold, so when they break away, she can't turn them as the line is too short. I'll wait until the other two Alpine wethers come up into the pasture with the two remaining Boer girls, giving me a herd of four again, before i start working her with a loose long line. (The two Boer boys went to fair last week.)
Jenny, how old is your boy? Sounds like you have found a great trainer! Keep posting!
Do you all feel like I do some days? It's like getting a 5 year old to play soccer. "Chase the ball. Kick the ball. Oh, look at the chalk lines! Can I eat the chalk? Oops, the ball rolled by. Mom, can I have a piece of candy? Kick the ball... "


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Just here loving these updates <3


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

All good stuff! I can imagine goats being very stubborn! Max is 19 months old. Our first lesson is this week so we will I'm sure will be finding out soon the trials and tribulations of sheep herding! I'm a well versed in 5 year olds playing soccer though- Aack as when my son was 5 he stopped in the middle of the game to pick dandelions and ran across the field to give to his mom. It was hard not to smile though and find some joy in that! As the pages turn- lol!


----------



## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

dldolan said:


> Do you all feel like I do some days? It's like getting a 5 year old to play soccer.



Yep. We certainly have our moments. We've started introducing some distractions.... I thought that having another dog in the arena would be a tough one, since Ayla is still very much a social puppy that likes playing with other dogs. I was pleasantly surprised that she ignored the border collie. Watering tubs, on the other hand, still require investigation..... 


The level of control expected out of these dogs has always impressed me, ever since the first time I set foot at a trial. It gives us a lot to strive for.


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

She is doing extremely well and for the water tub -I'm sure she was making sure there was no wolf or sheep their hiding in it(smiley face)It is a very intriguing to see the intensity and level of control dogs at work. We also do nose works max whose is dog reactive and loose in a gated off section, so focused on the scent he does not even pay any mind to the dogs that are three feet away seperated by a flimsy gate. Which is very big for us and really not appreciating it all until I played back a video my daughter recorded.


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Max did great on his first lesson we practiced "get out" everytime I said "get out"I thought Arnold schwartzanager- i didn't sound like him though! A command to teach him to turn away from away from the sheep when he gets to close and turn around and sit down facing the sheep. He was reluctant on sitting so I practiced that on lead with him while instructor managed sheep. When it was time to get him off lead. He was real happy he barked a lot and almost looked like he was smiling like he was proud of himself and having a blast. He tried to bite the sheep a few times and she had to whack him with the paddle. She said all the gsds try to bite the sheep. He seems to be getting "away to me" and "come by" He was really having fun and seemed to be absorbing much more at the second half of the lesson and we worked on "get out" again. His focus was on the sheep the whole time. We watched the next two lessons in the big field. It was interesting to see the different levels of focus of the different dogs and the way the sheep react to the different presence of different dogs.


----------



## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Time to start asking for some precision, and more organization. Which in this type of herding work, means cones. Orange cones here, orange cones there, cones, cones, everywhere. Some to walk through, some to walk toward, some to walk around, some to turn at. Cones, Cones, *CONES*. 












We also started working panels, which is one of the easier obstacles that will later transition to chutes, gates, bridges, and beyond. She's figuring out where to position herself so the sheep go through the panel in the desired direction, in an orderly manner. We've started some figure-8 style moves around cones and panels, all the while reinforcing that she needs to wear back and forth, not circling. We're starting to move beyond basic foundation stuff, and things are getting a lot more fun.


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Sounds real exciting!!!! Looks like you beat the storm rolling in. Cones I think I will like more of a direction. My daughter watched Max's lesson the other day and thought sheep herding was real fun she understands the fever!!!


----------



## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

Mishka my pup and Ayla's litter mate is doing a little herding as well! Though our main focus is IPO our obedience is now finally getting to a point I feel more comfortable working her on stock. We're not as advanced as miss Ayla here but last week we actually got a controlled sit stay! That's a big deal for this devil dog LOL. We're still dealing with the circling but at least she works super wide and doesn't dive bomb in as much as Ollie does to take a cheap shot, well as much as Ollie used to.


----------



## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

But you guys are doing an awesome job, I fully understand the difficulty and how impressive it is for a young GSD to be working that way.  The sport is nowhere near as easy as it looks, I guess unless you cheat and get a BC haha!


----------



## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

So exciting! I love hearing of her progress.


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

They do make it look easy! This is not easy. Max can do brilliant sit stays. Changing direction is where he tries to get sneaky ignores the get out and gets whacked. The small little rake thing broke. This is going to be incredibly challenging and I like to see how this plays out for us I really can't imagine being in a big field anytime soon. The sheep are really cute to!


----------



## dldolan (Aug 28, 2015)

Holy smokes. Got a call from my niece while we were away. Xavi (Anatolian/BC cross) was locked in the goat pasture, and the goat girls and Mina were on the deck of my house. No clue how this happened, but I'd have loved to be a fly on the wall to see if/how she herded them up stairs onto my front deck 400 yards away from their pasture!!  Nobody bitten or gored, so all was okay. I guess.


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

That's an interesting story sounds like she was bringing them to you. Good to hear all safe and sound!


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Our previous lesson max seemed to be less responding to the paddle and weapons of sheepherding. He seems to be ignoring them now. The previous lesson a small rake was broke on him. 
Our most recent lesson max is becoming more respondent to the get out. He was not exactly sitting as I can see the wires in his brain could not make that connection but he was giving the sheep more distance- so improvements and when close a few times had refrained from trying to nip towards end of lesson. 
In photo -We are watching this one border collie in the big field making huge improvements since last I saw this dog in action. Max's little flock checking him out while max is distracted.


----------



## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

dldolan said:


> Holy smokes. Got a call from my niece while we were away. Xavi (Anatolian/BC cross) was locked in the goat pasture, and the goat girls and Mina were on the deck of my house. No clue how this happened, but I'd have loved to be a fly on the wall to see if/how she herded them up stairs onto my front deck 400 yards away from their pasture!!  Nobody bitten or gored, so all was okay. I guess.


Wow. Talk about lucky! That's pretty crazy.... 


I think the most stressful part about having animals is trusting people when you're gone. A few years ago on the 4th of July it was brutally hot, and I had out of town family visiting. My usual, trusted, go-to people were all either out of town or enjoying their own holiday parties, so I offered to pay a neighbor to stop by and check and fill all of the water buckets/fonts midday. This person didn't latch the gate securely, so I ended up getting a panicked phone call, and having to leave the picnic early (luckily I had my dog with me) and rushing back to round up the escaped goats that were happily gorging themselves on some potted plants. Sigh. The Golden Rule: SHUT THE GATE.


----------



## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

The last few weeks have been pretty buggy and hot. This lesson ended on a high note - we started moving stock through gates, the very basics of penning/re-penning. 

It might sound like a trivial thing, but it adds one more item to think about: Sheep, Dog, Stick, and now, Gates + Latches. The dog was not allowed to follow the sheep through the gate in this exercise. "Aiming" the sheep at a gate in a long line of fencing is similar in some ways to shooting for a center pocket in a game of pool.

Such an intricate dance, learned in small steps....


----------



## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

She is so awesome. I am so glad you share her/your progress here!


----------



## dldolan (Aug 28, 2015)

A problem has come up with Mina and the goats. She is biting at their vulvas when behind them. If I am close enough, she will "leave it" when told to. This started one day when a goat got out of the pasture and was out on the farm with the dogs. They left her alone until I got home, but then started biting at her when I was trying to round her up. I'm worried about this behavior. Any great ideas on how to deal with this?


----------



## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

WIBackpacker said:


> The last few weeks have been pretty buggy and hot. This lesson ended on a high note - we started moving stock through gates, the very basics of penning/re-penning.
> 
> It might sound like a trivial thing, but it adds one more item to think about: Sheep, Dog, Stick, and now, Gates + Latches. The dog was not allowed to follow the sheep through the gate in this exercise. "Aiming" the sheep at a gate in a long line of fencing is similar in some ways to shooting for a center pocket in a game of pool.
> 
> Such an intricate dance, learned in small steps....


Hey WIBackpacker, I've been following this thread a bit. Are you training your dog in the AKC-style of herding or the HGH-style? Do you have extensive experience with one or both forms of herding?

Also, do you find that herding is compatible with other types of training (like IPO or scent/blood tracking)? Or do you only focus your dogs on one type of training at the exclusion of other types?


----------



## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Dalko43 said:


> Hey WIBackpacker, I've been following this thread a bit. Are you training your dog in the AKC-style of herding or the HGH-style?


Thanks for following along! The honest answer to this question is "Neither". There's a weird belief/stereotype, mostly in online GSD circles, that it's AKC vs HGH. In reality there is actually a huge spectrum of livestock skills that you can spend a lifetime learning and training. In the United States there are multiple venues to compete and title in, including AHBA, ASCA, and USBCHA (though the latter is almost exclusively BC's, any breed or mixed dog wth the correct skill set can enter), aas well as a few more obscure opportunities. There are many, many levels of difficulty. For example, AHBA has three levels of RLF (Ranch Large Flock) that can include any sort of course with multiple areas, and may require the dog to work a mixed group of stock (more than one species in a mixed group). That's one class I hope to compete in, among others. 

"AKC Herding" is a phrase used by some people who are looking down their nose and poo-pooing it. There are three courses (A, B, C) originally designed to replicate the type of Aussie/arena (A) work, BC (B) work, and GSD/Tending (C) work. Sure, plenty of people don't like it, which is fine, but achieving an HX title, especially on multiple courses, is nothing to snark about. Some handlers (actively competing) tend to not like AKC due to certain judging and stock rotation parameters, at least that has been my firsthand experience. AKC herding was not meant to be a breed suitability test for border collies, that argument is a nasty one....

My goal is to train Ayla to be versatile - different numbers and species of stock. She's working mostly sheep at the moment, but has been exposed to runner ducks and geese, and has some basic work done with goats. I hope to enter different trials in different venues as we move forward. We started last fall in AHBA.



> Do you have extensive experience with one or both forms of herding?


Nope. I got involved about six years ago, though I've become a lot more serious in the past year and a half. Compared to most people competing right now, that's a mere blink of an eye. I either own or have owned most species of livestock commonly used for herding (excluding cattle) , so if I have any sort of objective advantage, that would be it. Understanding the stock is half the battle.



> Also, do you find that herding is compatible with other types of training (like IPO or scent/blood tracking)? Or do you only focus your dogs on one type of training at the exclusion of other types?


That, I don't know. I started watching and learning about IPO when I was puppy-searching about two years ago. While I love watching my friends train and trial, I don't have first hand experience training both side-by-side. There are a lot of opinions on the matter, some people have very strong ones. Frankly, there are so very few German Shepherds really involved in herding, I've not formed my own opinion on the matter. Yet. 

Some of the people I train with (non-GSD) participate and/or compete in agility, tracking, and nose work. A few do competitive obedience, but quite a few people are of the opinion that precision obedience and herding are not compatible and may result in a loss of communication/clarity to the dog. Like I said, I'm not sure yet what my opinion is at this point in time. 

Thanks again for following along.


----------



## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

Dalko43 said:


> Hey WIBackpacker, I've been following this thread a bit. Are you training your dog in the AKC-style of herding or the HGH-style? Do you have extensive experience with one or both forms of herding?
> 
> Also, do you find that herding is compatible with other types of training (like IPO or scent/blood tracking)? Or do you only focus your dogs on one type of training at the exclusion of other types?


I own Ayla's sister, also quite a natural herder and we also do IPO. The only issue we've had with doing both is my female tends to get snarky with the herding stick when given a correction, she was trying to bite back. My instructor immediately asked if we were also doing bitework but in the scheme of things it was a very small problem(if it's even related). Dogs are smart and they understand the difference between the different sports. It is however a huge commitment to try and do both, all of my free time was devoted to training. The only real issue I can see and that was noted above is that herding requires a lot more independent thinking than IPO which could possibly have a negative impact with obedience... Mishka and I did not have any issues but that said, Carma puppies are special.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Hey I finally got to the end. I must say ... most impressive and I learned stuff! Lot of work but it looks like you have a farm and live stock??? Is "herding" something a dog could do/learn on weekends or would one have to have daily exposure to live stock?? 


I was looking at this list of choices and I saw Herding here.:
Truckee Meadows Dog Training Club - Farm Dog Certification


----------



## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> Hey I finally got to the end. I must say ... most impressive and I learned stuff! Lot of work but it looks like you have a farm and live stock??? Is "herding" something a dog could do/learn on weekends or would one have to have daily exposure to live stock??
> 
> 
> I was looking at this list of choices and I saw Herding here.:
> Truckee Meadows Dog Training Club - Farm Dog Certification


The people we've trained with span the full spectrum from for-profit farmers, to competitive trial competitors, to white collar "do it for fun on the weekend" handlers. There's no reason you can't get involved.


----------



## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

I would pass on truckee meadows for herding. That isn't what they really do - they do agility, obedience, etc. They are putting on an event elsewhere (where Sandy Moore trains I think). If you are looking into actually herding - I would contact Sandy directly or Lisa Edwards (also in Gardnerville). I train with Lisa (call her don't email) and chose her over Sandy, for what it is worth. But knew someone who at one point trained with Sandy.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

mspiker03 said:


> I would pass on truckee meadows for herding. That isn't what they really do - they do agility, obedience, etc. They are putting on an event elsewhere (where Sandy Moore trains I think). If you are looking into actually herding - I would contact Sandy directly or Lisa Edwards (also in Gardnerville). I train with Lisa (call her don't email) and chose her over Sandy, for what it is worth. But knew someone who at one point trained with Sandy.


It might be them running the Truckee Program??? The actual training I think?? List Dresslerville Rd in Gardnerville as "Sheep Camp??" 

I used to have a client out that way (I'm a PCA) and I have actually been on Dresslerville Rd, Gardnerville is a lot closer! I never saw anything out there that looked like a Sheep Camp??? But a lot of space and homes and I was not looking for a Farm??? Who knew. 

How do you know where Gardnerville is???


----------



## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

Chip18 said:


> It might be them running the Truckee Program??? The actual training I think?? List Dresslerville Rd in Gardnerville as "Sheep Camp??"
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Truckee Meadows is putting on a farm dog event at Sandy Moores facility. Sandy Moore trains and teaches herding lessons at 3/4 ranch (or whatever it is called). Her training company is sheep camp and you can google Sandy Moore sheep camp and get right to it.

Lisa Edwards also teaches herding. She is off Waterloo out a ways. I currently train with Lisa so I know Gardnerville. I am up at the lake.

Truckee meadows is more an obedience and agility place and they train in Reno somewhere. I have never been to their place but have friends that go there.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

WIBackpacker said:


> The people we've trained with span the full spectrum from for-profit farmers, to competitive trial competitors, to white collar "do it for fun on the weekend" handlers. There's no reason you can't get involved.


OK thanks, if "fun on the weekends" is also an option then "herding" is still, on the table. 

Apparently there is more dog stuff going on out here than I realized?? Truckee Meadows, seem to be the contact point and they conduct get to know stuff meetings locally??? So people can find out about what's available.

Maybe that's where all the GSD's I see in Pick Up's and Subarus are going ... on there way to do stuff.


----------



## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

You can pretty much find any dog sport in the Reno Carson area. You just have to look because it is out there. Truckee Meadows isn't the only place that offers dog sports. Recommending a place to try would be based on what sport they are interested in. I send anyone wanting to herd to Lisa. I think dog sports often start as something fun to do on weekends and then turn into more (wanting to compete).


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

mspiker03 said:


> Truckee Meadows is putting on a farm dog event at Sandy Moores facility. Sandy Moore trains and teaches herding lessons at 3/4 ranch (or whatever it is called). Her training company is sheep camp and you can google Sandy Moore sheep camp and get right to it.
> 
> Lisa Edwards also teaches herding. She is off Waterloo out a ways. I currently train with Lisa so I know Gardnerville. I am up at the lake.
> 
> Truckee meadows is more an obedience and agility place and they train in Reno somewhere. I have never been to their place but have friends that go there.


LOL ... how much technology was involved in me find out something was happening 35 miles from me??? :laugh2:

Sheep camp is a Training Company ... who knew??


----------



## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

Bitterbrush Stock Dogs (Lisa's place) is also probably just as close as well. So, two places close to you. But close is relative - it takes me an hour + to get to Lisa's and almost 2 to train IPO (I go down towards Sac and have chosen to stay there vs train in Reno).


----------

