# Which Kibble would you choose?..



## Infamous_GSD (Oct 27, 2010)

After alot of reading and researching i came down to three Kibble Large Breed Puppy Brands. Below is listed which ones and how much i would get them for.



*Orijen* Large Breed Puppy Formula Dry Dog Food (29.7-lb bag) *$53.80*


*Wellness *Super5Mix Puppy Health Large Breed Formula Dry Dog Food (30-lb bag) *$53.97*


*Solid Gold* Wolfcub Large Breed Puppy- Bison (33-lb bag) *$48.02*

So which would you choose for your puppy and why? 


*I plan to feed only dry food*


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Nice price on the Orijen. Where are you getting it for that price? The best I've found online is about $58. There are two pet specialty stores near me selling bags for $62 and $68 each before tax.


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## Infamous_GSD (Oct 27, 2010)

Lucy Dog said:


> Nice price on the Orijen. Where are you getting it for that price? The best I've found online is about $58. There are two pet specialty stores near me selling bags for $62 and $68 each before tax.


Well there's two places where i can get the Orijen from. One is a local mom n pop pet shop here in NYC for $50 and some change but problem is supply isnt always 100% sure, so if i cant get it there i would get it here online.

Orijen Large Breed Puppy Formula Dry Dog Food | PetFoodDirect.com

*says today only but that coupon is always there  *


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Infamous_GSD said:


> Well there's two places where i can get the Orijen from. One is a local mom n pop pet shop here in NYC for $50 and some change but problem is supply isnt always 100% sure, so if i cant get it there i would get it here online.
> 
> Orijen Large Breed Puppy Formula Dry Dog Food | PetFoodDirect.com
> 
> *says today only but that coupon is always there  *


Where in NYC? Manhattan? I'm about 30 minutes outside of Manhattan, but I'm there almost every day. Definitely share that tip because that's a great price.


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## Infamous_GSD (Oct 27, 2010)

*Coral Aquarium*
75-03 Roosevelt Ave
Jackson Heights, NY 11372 (718) 429-3934

Like i said supply isn't always guaranteed but me and two other GSD owners have told the owner we expect to buy Orijen LBP 30lbs every month. The owner said he would start carrying more soon, So just give them a call.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Yeah... I'm not over in queens too much. That's over by long island city, right? I'm mostly in Manhattan, but hardly ever on that side of the river. Nice prices though... definitely take advantage.


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## Infamous_GSD (Oct 27, 2010)

Lucy Dog said:


> Yeah... I'm not over in queens too much. That's over by long island city, right? I'm mostly in Manhattan, but hardly ever on that side of the river. Nice prices though... definitely take advantage.


Its about 10-15mins from the City. 

Yeah Orijen at this price makes it very hard to not buy and now with all the votes on it i'm going to get it.

Thing is i still have 75% full Wellness LBP 15lb bag of kibble, so do i continue with it till its done or use it to slowly transition to the Orijen?


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i'm always switching brands of kibble
and can. i've never fed puppy food.
rarely do i feed my dog straight kibble.
i always mix something in the kibble.
i mix the kibble with, can food, chicken,
raw ground beef, rice, quiona, millet,
table scraps (depending), green veggies,
fruit, organic yogurt, salmon oil or 100%,
a variety of fish, olive oil and whatever else.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

Infamous_GSD said:


> After alot of reading and researching i came down to three Kibble Large Breed Puppy Brands. Below is listed which ones and how much i would get them for.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wouldn't use any of these. You are paying top dollar for no benefit. Neither of these foods have enough fat and Wellness & Solid Gold are really trash. The fat levels in those two are way way way to low. Protein level is too low as well. If you like the GA on Wellness & Solid Gold, then go to Costco. For half the price the Costco food is as good or better.

The best formula for any dog whether its a puppy or adult, small breed or large, is a traditional 30/20 type kibble. And frankly the best bang for buck are foods priced at $1lb. 

Some foods are better marketed than others but there is virtually no evidence that foods in the $1.5 lb and up range are any better.

It depends a lot on where you live and what you can get close by. Driving around looking for dog food is silly.


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

If you can get Origen for that price, go for it! I've never seen it retail for less than $60 locally- that's a steal! 

Quality wise, Origen is likely your best bet. The company who makes it, Champion Pet Foods, has a spotless record, own their own manufacturers (SUPER tight quality control), and ALL of the their ingredients are sourced locally in Canada (absolutely nothing from China or elsewhere). To make things even better, if you're into the who humanitarian thing, all of the meat that goes into their feed is free range, or wild caught (fish). 

Saying that, Mulder came to me from his breeder on Solid Gold Wolfcub, and I don't really have any complaints. A good, albeit grain inclusive food for a better price than the Origen.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I have fed all three of these foods. I feed Orijen now.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

atravis said:


> If you can get Origen for that price, go for it! I've never seen it retail for less than $60 locally- that's a steal!
> 
> Quality wise, Origen is likely your best bet. The company who makes it, Champion Pet Foods, has a spotless record, own their own manufacturers (SUPER tight quality control), and ALL of the their ingredients are sourced locally in Canada (absolutely nothing from China or elsewhere). To make things even better, if you're into the who humanitarian thing, all of the meat that goes into their feed is free range, or wild caught (fish).
> 
> Saying that, Mulder came to me from his breeder on Solid Gold Wolfcub, and I don't really have any complaints. A good, albeit grain inclusive food for a better price than the Origen.


You call three recalls one of which was BSE spotless? How do you know about quality control? Have you been there? What are its certifications? AIB? EU?

Are you an expert on quality control?

And you are 100% wrong on everything being from Canada. All of the Chicken Meal comes from the United States, the same place where much cheaper brands buy it, same grade as well. Chicken Meal is the primary protein source in Orijen. Orijen kinda glosses over that in the warm and fuzzy video.

LOL


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

You mean three voluntary recalls that were handled swiftly and professionally whith 0 casualties to pets? 

Yeah. Pretty spotless, considering the HUNDREDS of pets that died from the Menu food recalls? WHO HOO, IAMS AND ROYAL CANIN! Killing America's pets, one can of food at a time


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

sable123 said:


> How do you know about quality control? Have you been there? What are its certifications? AIB? EU?
> 
> Are you an expert on quality control?
> 
> ...


Are YOU an expert? Course, I should know better than to ask... of course you are.

Uh, sources please? I'd like to see where they're importing their chicken from.

ETA:

And to the point, even if they were sourcing their chicken from here... WHOOPTY FREAKIN DO. 

Better than the slop many companies pull in from China and toss into their labels. If chicken from the US is the worst thing they're using in their food, then by all means... bring on the Origen!


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

atravis said:


> Are YOU an expert? Course, I should know better than to ask... of course you are.
> 
> Uh, sources please? I'd like to see where they're importing their chicken from.


There is a letter on here from a women named Bonnie from Orijen confirming this. You can search for it. It is the truth, sorry to disapoint you. One of the forum members requested the information and pasted the letter here.

And I said Chicken Meal, not chicken, Chicken Meal is the core protein in all the formulas. I am not saying its a bad thing I am just saying the company's marketing is highly misleading.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

UGH! :rolleyes2:

Both of you need a Time Out!


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

LaRen616 said:


> UGH! :rolleyes2:
> 
> Both of you need a Time Out!


I am right.

_Derek, _

_Chicken meal is a good example. Although there are producers of chicken meal in Canada, none are capable of producing from chickens passed fit for human consumption and as such no Canadian chicken meal meets the European Union Pet Food Regulation 1774. At present, Canadian chicken meal is made with spent hens (from egg laying operations) as well as chickens that have died, but are not processed in a federally inspected facility, or were not passed as ‘fit for human consumption’ by the Government of Canada. _

_So, while our focus is “fresh and regional” our primary objective is always to achieve the highest standard in nutrition, palatability and food safety. Until chicken meal from human grade chickens is available in Canada, Champion will source its chicken meal from one of 2 USA chicken processors, whose chickens and facility are USDA certified, and who have the appropriate European Union qualifications (EU 1774)._

_ORIJEN is made with special 'low ash' chicken meal. This ingredient is prepared by removing the bones before cooking, which creates a very high protein and low ash ingredient. The result is a moderated amount of calcium and phosphorus in the final ORIJEN kibble. There are definitely different qualities of meat meals out there, just as there are many different grades of meat for you to choose from at your local grocers. If you start with ingredients that are mostly muscle meat (as is the case with our meat meals), this results in a quality meal that is very high in protein. most of the content of our meals will be muscle meat._

_Best Regards,_

*Bonnie*
Customer Care
Champion Petfoods LP
p 780.939.6888
f 780.939.6858


I also found an issue with the claim of "fresh, wild caught fish" that is impossible all year round because the salmon season is only about 3 months.


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

Well, then maybe someone needs to tell them to update their website, as they do clearly state that their chicken ingredients are sourced from "ALBERTA CHICKEN PRODUCERS".

Still does not tarnish my impression of the food.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

To answer your original question- I switched to Orijen LBP because I had been feeding Nature's Variety, and 'all life stages' food. But Stosh didn't seem to care for it- he loves the Orijen and is doing really well on it, great poops, lots of energy, enjoys eating for the first time in his life. I pay less than $40 in Dallas


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

atravis said:


> Well, then maybe someone needs to tell them to update their website, as they do clearly state that their chicken ingredients are sourced from "ALBERTA CHICKEN PRODUCERS".
> 
> Still does not tarnish my impression of the food.


There is a similar letter confirming my suspicion on the source of fish. By the way the BSE recall was not voluntary. Many people don't know that not long too long ago, Champion was a private label pet food producer.


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

Again, sources? On the fish, and where the BSE was not voluntary? 

And for the record, while I appreciate why the recall happened, there is no evidence whatsoever that BSE has any effect on dogs at all. There was no harm to your dog to be fed this food, only cautionary measures to be taken by the US, who did not want any trace of the disease to make it into the state.


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

BTW sable, you seem to have a pretty extensive knowledge of all the going-ons of Champion petfood. 

Care to share all the dirt you have on companies like Nestle/Procter & Gamble/Hills (Purina/Iams/Hills/etc)?

Surely you haven't been obsessing on just ONE food, right?


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

In the USA all recalls of pet food is voluntary as in the FDA doesn't have authority to force the recall. That is why you see "voluntary withdrawal" as the big buzz word now...cause it is all voluntary.

Here is the story in 2003 about BSE.

Mad Cow Prompts Dog Food Recall - CBS News


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

i use orijen because it has a higher protein level, which in and of itself wouldnt mean much, but they at least state how much of the product comes from animal sources, so i know most of the protein is from animal sources.

yes, they procure their chicken meal from Kentucky. a gentleman from another forum i frequent seems to have extensive knowledge of that plant. there are presumably 5 different grades of chicken meal, and that is a plant that produces the highest grade.

if Canada has no plants producing chicken meal that meat EU certification (the standard required by Champion), then Champion has no choice but to get their chicken meal from a plant outside Canada.

it makes sense to me that so many dogs thrive on Orijen since there is more animal product in it than anything else. i think most people who pay extra $$ for Orijen are pretty cognizant of their dogs health, and if it didnt work so well would do the research and move on to something else.

i think it is pretty condescending to treat people who use orijen as though they are so stupid as to blindly buy orijen because of Champions marketing.....id say a majority of buyers simply like the ingredient profile and the health of their dogs on Champions products.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Sable, I'm curious as to what you recommend considering the foods listed in this thread are some of the best around? Pretty much any grain free food without poopoo fillers like corn are going to be great for your dog. Granted, some individual dogs don't do well on these diets due to food sensitivies. But those are the exception rather than the rule.

Feed whatever your dog does well on that is of the best quality you can afford. And don't listen to people who tell you otherwise. Considering that near bottom of the barrel foods like Eukaneuba are almost the same price as the foods you have in this poll it's not rocket science who has creative marketing campaigns.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

SORRY- that price was for the 15 lb bag not the 30! It was under $40 with tax.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

GSDElsa said:


> Sable, I'm curious as to what you recommend considering the foods listed in this thread are some of the best around? Pretty much any grain free food without poopoo fillers like corn are going to be great for your dog. Granted, some individual dogs don't do well on these diets due to food sensitivies. But those are the exception rather than the rule.
> 
> Feed whatever your dog does well on that is of the best quality you can afford. And don't listen to people who tell you otherwise. Considering that near bottom of the barrel foods like Eukaneuba are almost the same price as the foods you have in this poll it's not rocket science who has creative marketing campaigns.


First off corn is no filler. Don't misunderstand that statement I am not advocating corn as a primary source of protein. When people speak about corn in dog food they don't have a clue what they are talking about.

Grain free is a gimic, although they are high quality foods in almost all cases but potato is not as good as rice or corn. I like to keep total carbs arounds 30%, and you can do that easily for regular performance kibbles.

I know your eyes are rolling right now about corn but take your "internet science" hat off and look at the facts, whether its real allergy data or real digestibility data.

I will take a high meat-based diet with ground, slow cooked corn any day of the week over one with potato.

Science is about facts. The fact is corn is well over 90% digestible, has tons of anti-cancer properties (read Cornell 2004 study) and is very good for coat quality. Much better in all regards than rice or potato. Corn also keeps blood insulin levels very stable. Keep in mind that even if you see ground corn in second, third or fourth place that it only has 8-9% protein so it is not a big contributor to protein at all. Corn Gluten is but I wouldn't use those products.

The fact is also that rice and corn are equally allergenic, both are very low.

So I have favorites and generally they are 30/20's kibbles. Some are very regional and some are not. I uses what professionals use. Guys that run dogs and compete with dogs.

You live in Central NY? Look for Annamaet Ultra. I also do like Rob's GF's but they are pricey. There are very few people in the dog food business that know as much as Robert Downey.


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

sable123 said:


> Grain free is a gimic.................I will take a high meat-based diet with ground, slow cooked corn any day of the week over one with potato.
> 
> .


that argument would hold some water IF there were grain inclusive foods that had the type of meat content that the many of the grainless foods have. the grainless foods that have 35-40% protein with 70-80% of that protein coming from animal sources may use potato, but i dont think they depend on it as heavily as grain inclusive foods that are 25-30% protein depend on grains. obviously the higher the meat content of a food, the less room there is in that food for non animal components such as corn, rice,etc.... 

i dont even care if a food uses corn as an ingredient...im more interested in a high content of animal sources..........so, for me grainless foods/feeding raw are currently the best way to get this.

in short, ill take more meat and some potato combo over a less meat and more grains combo.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Where is Great Life manufactured?


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

roxy84 said:


> that argument would hold some water IF there were grain inclusive foods that had the type of meat content that the many of the grainless foods have. the grainless foods that have 35-40% protein with 70-80% of that protein coming from animal sources may use potato, but i dont think they depend on it as heavily as grain inclusive foods that are 25-30% protein depend on grains. obviously the higher the meat content of a food, the less room there is in that food for non animal components such as corn, rice,etc....
> 
> i dont even care if a food uses corn as an ingredient...im more interested in a high content of animal sources..........so, for me grainless foods/feeding raw are currently the best way to get this.
> 
> *in short, ill take more meat and some potato combo over a less meat and more grains combo*.


:thumbup:


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

I agree with you 100%. Almost any quality 30/20 without corn or wheat gluten will be above 75% from animal sources. I know several that are in the 90's. 

Bil Jac which is the poster child for crappy Petco food is about 90% from animal sources.

You simply can't tell from the sequence of ingredients on the bag. Look at this list of ingredients and let's guess what the protein from animal sources is:

"Poultry Meal, Fish Meal, Kibbled Corn, Pork Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), Extruded Rice, Beet Pulp, Plain, Dried, Blood Meal, Sodium Bentonite, Corn Oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols), Cane Molasses, Feeding Oat Meal, Liver Digest, Flaxseed, Potassium Chloride, Vitamins and Minerals"

Roxy take a crack at the riddle.


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

here is another:

*Chicken Meal, White Rice, Menhaden Fish Meal (Select Grade), Lard (Source of Omega 6 and Omega 3 Fatty Acids) Beef Meat and Bone Meal, Sunflower Oil (Non-genetically Engineered Variety), Chicken By-Product Meal(Highest Quality), Beef Fat, Undefatted Beef Liver (Human Grade), Whole Dried Eggs (Human Grade), Flaxseed Oil (Organic), Menhaden Fish Fat plus Minerals and Vitamins. *

Rice is #2


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Mine grew up on Wellness and Orijen. Free feeding. Her weight, health and energy were always excellent. Now she is on Orijen adult. No complaints.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

I'm having deja vu

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/diet-nutrition/138013-question-about-kumpi.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/diet-nutrition/137725-i-am-curious-about-corn-etc.html

**internet science hat is off** A few small things wrong with your above posts sable.. 1. Chicken is not used in all Orijen formulas, majority yes but not all. 2. Wellness is not trash. Alpo is trash. You may not like the food but that doesn't mean it is trash. 

Orijen marketing??? I've never seen an ad for Orijen other than the video on their website long after I'd been feeding it. I started feeding it from word of mouth praise of the food and then looking into the ingredients. 

What does that even mean "I feed what professionals feed." I've heard of "professionals" feeding everything from RAW to Pedigree

Thanks for trying to educate all of us sheep on dog nutrition. I wonder what you think of raw feeding.


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

sable123 said:


> I agree with you 100%. Almost any quality 30/20 without corn or wheat gluten will be above 75% from animal sources. I know several that are in the 90's.
> 
> Bil Jac which is the poster child for crappy Petco food is about 90% from animal sources.
> 
> .


i never claimed you can tell the meat content of a food by looking at the ingredient panel...the manufacturer has to state that, otherwise there is no way to really know.

im curious, what foods are in the 90% range in animal product content or even have 90% of their protein coming from animal sources?.....and where does BilJac state that 90% of their food is from animal sources?

thanks.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Interestingly, Purina states the % on their bags in Europe of the two main ingredients it appears - Chicken and Rice from France.

PRO PLAN ADULT ORIGINAL
CHICKEN & RICE

http://www.purina-proplan.fr/fr/dog/adultAllSizesOriginal_more.asp 

Recommandations journalières
Les recommandations journalières doivent être adaptés en fonction des conditions climatiques (les quantités seront augmentées par temps froid si le chien vit dehors), du niveau d’activité de l’animal et de sa condition physique. Veillez à toujours laisser de l’eau propre et fraîche à disposition de votre animal. Conservez l’aliment dans un endroit sec et frais.

Ingrédients
Poulet (20%), Riz (15%), Maïs, Protéines de volaille déshydratées, Gluten de maïs, Blé, Graisse animale (conservée avec un mélange de tocophérols), Hydrolysat, Pulpe de betterave, Huile de poisson, Poudre d’œuf, Levures, Phosphate de calcium, Chlorure de potassium, Chlorure de sodium, Carbonate de calcium, Sels minéraux.

Vitamine A : 21000 UI/Kg 
Vitamine D3 :1600 UI/Kg
Vitamine E (α tocophérol) : 500 mg/Kg 
Vitamine C (acide ascorbique) : 100 mg/Kg

*I wish this was required in the United states but for all ingredients.*


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Funny, because those threads were what I was thinking about as well!!!



sagelfn said:


> I'm having deja vu
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/diet-nutrition/138013-question-about-kumpi.html
> 
> ...


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

rjvamp said:


> Interestingly, Purina states the % on their bags in Europe of the two main ingredients it appears - Chicken and Rice from France.
> 
> PRO PLAN ADULT ORIGINAL
> CHICKEN & RICE
> ...


Mmmm...brewer's rice, chicken feathers, and soy....oh my!


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

roxy84 said:


> i never claimed you can tell the meat content of a food by looking at the ingredient panel...the manufacturer has to state that, otherwise there is no way to really know.
> 
> im curious, what foods are in the 90% range in animal product content or even have 90% of their protein coming from animal sources?.....and where does BilJac state that 90% of their food is from animal sources?
> 
> thanks.


The first one I put up is National Performance Plus which is 92% protein from animal sources, a 34/20 performance food. Not a GF food.

The second one I put up is Abady State of the Art M&S. This food is 95% protein from animal sources. This is 35% protein, 30% fat I think. This is not a GF either. The lower end formula is still 93% of protein from animal sources.

There are many others, including other sled dog non-GF formulas.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Out of curiosity, Sable, what do you feed and to how many dogs? What kind of dogs?


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## sable123 (Jul 11, 2010)

I have a GSD that I am taking care of for a friend that is overseas now and a variety of sporting dogs, some 12 now and I co-own a few as well. Never had a GSD so that is why I poke around on here. 

I feed two feeds Annamaet Ultra & Pro Pac. I prefer Annamaet to all other kibbles but Pro Pac High Performance which is made by the same company that makes Earthborn is a very solid food for dogs requiring a lot of calories.

The GSD was on a grain free before my friend left and I didn't like the way he looked. He looks better on Pro Pac.

I like the Abady feeds as well but I have several dogs with beards and its gets caught in there on accounts it is a granular food.


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

sable123 said:


> The first one I put up is National Performance Plus which is 92% protein from animal sources, a 34/20 performance food. Not a GF food.
> 
> The second one I put up is Abady State of the Art M&S. This food is 95% protein from animal sources. This is 35% protein, 30% fat I think. This is not a GF either. The lower end formula is still 93% of protein from animal sources.
> 
> There are many others, including other sled dog non-GF formulas.


thanks. i knew about the first one, but hadnt looked at it in a while. i dont care some of the animal sources they use, but i cant argue they are designed well for the needs of sled dogs.


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