# breed worthiness and picking pups early on



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

this is from another thread. 

what makes a dog breed worthy in general?

how are these dogs picked out at a young age. 

what do you look for before 8 weeks when you decide which pups you're going to sell and which you're keeping?

what do you look for later on when deciding who will title?

basically, which behaviors of a dog tell you about who he is?



I'm obsessed with learning to read dogs, that's why the questions. I know it won't happen here but I don't know where I can find someone who will sit around and teach me so I'm here bugging the forum


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

one more. what do people see when they see a gsd trot? to me it looks like any other dog but I'm sure that's because I don't know what to look for

also, it's amazing that people look at stacked dogs and can tell about their build and predict how they'd move. how is this done?


ETA everywhere I say 'dog' I mean gsd, not just any dog. only obsessed with gsds


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't think it's a good idea to decide a dog is breed worthy at a young age. You can definitely decide a dog is NOT breed worthy at a young age though.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Knowledgeable breeders have a good idea of what a dog CAN be. But, my trainer made the comment that you never know and that's why she likes young dogs over puppies.

Seger has the pedigree to be "breed worthy". However, proving he is that is completely on me. Health checks, breed surveys, titles to prove working ability. 

In his litter, there were 4 males. He was the top two working "prospects".


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

You know what I really want to know? Which signs tell you about the dog's character.


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> Knowledgeable breeders have a good idea of what a dog CAN be. But, my trainer made the comment that you never know and that's why she likes young dogs over puppies.
> 
> Seger has the pedigree to be "breed worthy". However, proving he is that is completely on me. Health checks, breed surveys, titles to prove working ability.
> 
> In his litter, there were 4 males. He was the top two working "prospects".


Lucky you. I wish I can get a dog like that some day just to experience it
I love my dog with all his problems and he's the highlight of my day. I'm just interested in what a well bred dog with high drives is like


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Liesje said:


> I don't think it's a good idea to decide a dog is breed worthy at a young age. You can definitely decide a dog is NOT breed worthy at a young age though.


I was going based of lhtzl's comment in the other thread saying that she usually knows if the dog is worthy around a year or so

But since breeders sell pups at 8 weeks, how do they know which to hold back?

Like which signs tell you about the dog?


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

lalachka said:


> Lucky you. I wish I can get a dog like that some day just to experience it
> I love my dog with all his problems and he's the highlight of my day. I'm just interested in what a well bred dog with high drives is like



???? I'm not sure how to take this. Maybe I'm wrong but there seems to be some snark in your comment. I was trying to explain that 

1. I don't think a breeder knows for sure and to illustrate that I mentioned by trainer's comment on how you just never know.
and
2. that just because the dog has a "breed worthy" pedigree doesn't mean it should be bred without the necessary testing, breed survey, titling (all of which are SV standards prior to breeding)

I have an idea what my breeder was looking for when evaluating the puppies for working vs. pet but I don't think I'll comment further.

Since there are very few experienced breeders, and it doesn't sound like you want any anecdotal comments, maybe you should just PM Lisa and ask her.


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I watch pups from early on.....heck, from out of the sac! Food drive, tenacity, pushiness all can be observed with nursing babies. By the time they are 5 weeks old, I have a pretty good idea who the more dominant pushy pups are, and which are less pushy....By 8 weeks, after doing separation/strange place/object exercises, I know which are going to pet homes and which are staying/working....not to say that "pet" pups are not still capable of doing work...in my As....the "pet pup" as pronounced by a training director of a club, ended up 6 or 7 times Schh3. In G's, the male that was a bit lazier and just a cool personality is several times IPO3 and has V rated in every phase under tough judges. In K's I had 3 males...all three showed signs that said they would be good working prospects...the "pet" home has a very very strong male who is treated by respect by the TD/Helpers in her club...not a sport/prey dog at all, and a force to be reckoned with. But he was the least dominant/pushy of the 3 males....the most pushy is here after being returned when owners had a baby....another board member has the 3rd and he will be titled maybe this winter/next spring.

It is understanding what you expect from the genetics/pedigree, what you have, ie how it is expressed, and what your priorities are in a home. Then it is up to the x-ray gods, and the owners to take that potential and go forward. My Komet was sold to a promising working home...but they faded and as a working couple with a new baby...with the husband traveling alot...they could not do him justice even as a pet and gave him back...if I can get my body to work enough, I will get him titled....albeit he is much more talented than I can possibly utilize competitively...and that is after evaluation from people who have been competitive on a National/World level - not just a breeder's rose colored glasses.

Lee


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

You can test pups at around that age. And the more time you spend with them, the more you see which ones have certain levels of drive. Like…throwing a ball or another prey object and letting them go after it. You see which ones are the bossy ones in the litter, which ones like to stir up trouble, which ones are the ones “winning” the wrestling matches. Which ones are leaders, which ones are followers.

There is also a lot to do with the interaction with the humans. Some dogs will follow people around right away, others won’t. Some will offer certain behaviors (even at that age) while others are more standoffish and independent. So then it depends on what you want…which of the dogs fits the kind of dog you want to train and which dog has the drives that you want to see/develop for whatever it is you’re interested in.


----------



## McWeagle (Apr 23, 2014)

I hope you get lots of answers from knowledgeable people on this. I'm really interested in learning this too! 

I can sort of see how they would know, conformation-wise, which puppies would most likely grow up to be prospects. But I'd like to know how they choose which pups to hold back based on drive, character, bite, etc. How do they know at such a young age?

Or, like Liesje said, they can tell which pups are NOT breed-worthy and aren't held back. From a good, well-bred litter, how would they make this decision?


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> ???? I'm not sure how to take this. Maybe I'm wrong but there seems to be some snark in your comment. I was trying to explain that
> 
> 1. I don't think a breeder knows for sure and to illustrate that I mentioned by trainer's comment on how you just never know.
> and
> ...


No I'm sincerely jealous. You said you got one of the two top prospects and I know who your dog is from. 
I want to experience a dog like that some day

Why not comment further? I really want to know. Not so much to pick pups (maybe later) but to understand what defines a dog. 

And I don't like sending pms first. I pm'd two people with no reply and I get annoyed when it happens))))


----------



## McWeagle (Apr 23, 2014)

Oh, great answers Lee and Martem! (Sorry, the "knowledgeable people" part of my post isn't a dig at you guys! I was writing my post while your posts came up, so I didn't see them till after my post was up.)


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

McWeagle said:


> Oh, great answers Lee and Martem! (Sorry, the "knowledgeable people" part of my post isn't a dig at you guys! I was writing my post while your posts came up, so I didn't see them till after my post was up.)


Lee's is amazing, exactly what I was looking for but have some questions. martem's didn't read yet. we are going out, will reply later. 

this is a fascinating subject to me, I'm glad you're also interested


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Basically…the more time you spend around dogs or puppies, the easier it is to see the differences and the easier it gets to figure out what you like and what you don’t like. Puppies show their drive levels. It’s fairly apparent when you see 10 puppies in an exercise pen, which ones will have what types of drives and what level of drive. You’re basically comparing them to themselves, so you can rank them from a 1-10 very easily.

As for conformation…that takes a lot of experience, but young puppies do show certain traits that you can tell when they grow up, they’ll perform well at a show. I personally don’t care for conformation shows, so I never focused on that. As far as conforming to the standard…a good breeder will have all their dogs conform to the standard and hopefully not have any major physical deficiencies that don’t allow the dog to work (weak pasterns and things of that nature). In a good litter…the dogs won’t be that different conformation wise, and should all be able to work. As far as show performance, same as in work, you’ll have different levels of possibility of success, and one will always be the best. For that, you have to understand what judges look for, and how that presents itself in a puppy. The thought process behind the “best show prospect” is that if the litter was competing against itself…which puppy would get “best of breed” 9/10 times. This actually happens a lot in the less popular breeds because there might only be one breeder of that breed in the area, so it’s not rare to compete against littermates.

For those that don't consistently train with a group of GSDs...it's tough to understand. But even the most novice of people (like me) catch on very quickly on the huge differences between dogs. The more you watch, listen, actually engage with people and ask questions while watching...the more you figure out. I can easily take the 15 or so dogs I train with on a weekly basis and rate their levels of drive...I see them so often that it becomes very easy to see and understand how the individual dog is processing things. Same with puppies...spend 8 weeks with a litter, you'll see their different personalities and drives.

Remember...you're comparing them to each other...not to other puppies or dogs you've dealt with before.


----------



## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

My breeder sends out weekly "pupdates" to prospective owners with all their observations of the litter. Things they look for is which puppy is really pushy, which one is always first at the milk bar, which ones gets pushed out of the way too easily. Which pups are going to investigate new toys, which ones are the first ones to escape the whelping box and go exploring. Which ones prefer the security and company of their littermates, which ones will seek out people and attempt to interact on their own, etc. 

Looks at energy levels - which pups will chase the flirt pole until they pass out from exhaution, which ones are more balanced, which ones will give a bit of an effort then get distracted by something else. 

Pups are watched all the time - when presented with an obstacle to get to their food or buddies, which ones try to actively figure out how to get around the obstacle and persist until they succeed. Which ones try but then give up and go do something else, which ones just sit there crying, then realize no one is coming to rescue them, so set themselves to figure out the issue on their own, and which ones just don't care, or just cry and don't attempt anything, and so on.

All these things give a lot of insight into a pup - their independence, willingness to fit into a pack, persistance in problem solving, ability to deal with frustration, etc - 

I needed a confident dog for IPO, and easy-going enough to put up with Keeta's pushy-ness and bullying - but still confident enough to not be negatively affected by Keeta's bullying. Enough drive and energy to do IPO and "kick-butt" (my words  ), but mellow enough with an off switch so that we can chill in the house without constant activity - important in this part of the world where the days are short and frigid and covered in snow for more than half the year. I wanted a friendly, outgoing dog, as opposed to a more aloof one. etc . . . 

By the time pups are 7 weeks old and have their "official" puppy testing, the breeder has a good handle on each pup, their potential strenghts and weaknesses, and what kind of home they would fit in best. I know I was just amazed looking back at the puppy description of Gryffon how accurate it was, and how he fit exactly what I was looking for.


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

wolfstraum said:


> I watch pups from early on.....heck, from out of the sac! Food drive, tenacity, pushiness all can be observed with nursing babies. By the time they are 5 weeks old, I have a pretty good idea who the more dominant pushy pups are, and which are less pushy....By 8 weeks, after doing separation/strange place/object exercises, I know which are going to pet homes and which are staying/working....not to say that "pet" pups are not still capable of doing work...in my As....the "pet pup" as pronounced by a training director of a club, ended up 6 or 7 times Schh3. In G's, the male that was a bit lazier and just a cool personality is several times IPO3 and has V rated in every phase under tough judges. In K's I had 3 males...all three showed signs that said they would be good working prospects...the "pet" home has a very very strong male who is treated by respect by the TD/Helpers in her club...not a sport/prey dog at all, and a force to be reckoned with. But he was the least dominant/pushy of the 3 males....the most pushy is here after being returned when owners had a baby....another board member has the 3rd and he will be titled maybe this winter/next spring.
> 
> It is understanding what you expect from the genetics/pedigree, what you have, ie how it is expressed, and what your priorities are in a home. Then it is up to the x-ray gods, and the owners to take that potential and go forward. My Komet was sold to a promising working home...but they faded and as a working couple with a new baby...with the husband traveling alot...they could not do him justice even as a pet and gave him back...if I can get my body to work enough, I will get him titled....albeit he is much more talented than I can possibly utilize competitively...and that is after evaluation from people who have been competitive on a National/World level - not just a breeder's rose colored glasses.
> 
> Lee


thank you!!! this is exactly what I was looking for.

so, tenacity, pushiness, dominance. 
is dominance a good thing? who would want a dominant dog and why?

how are nerves tested? sights and sounds? what's an acceptable reactiin? 
do some pups really ignore any sound?

let's say you had a really confident pup, not scared of any sounds. and then after every sound you'd duck for cover. would that affect his reactions in the future? 

also you said you can tell which are sport prospects. how? 

and this is unrelated but quickly. do you resent people giving pups back? having a baby is life changing but we knock people for not thinking things through when getting a dog. same with not having enough time. 

as much as I try not to ever judge I probably couldn't help myself.


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

martemchik said:


> You can test pups at around that age. And the more time you spend with them, the more you see which ones have certain levels of drive. Like…throwing a ball or another prey object and letting them go after it. You see which ones are the bossy ones in the litter, which ones like to stir up trouble, which ones are the ones “winning” the wrestling matches. Which ones are leaders, which ones are followers.
> 
> There is also a lot to do with the interaction with the humans. Some dogs will follow people around right away, others won’t. Some will offer certain behaviors (even at that age) while others are more standoffish and independent. So then it depends on what you want…which of the dogs fits the kind of dog you want to train and which dog has the drives that you want to see/develop for whatever it is you’re interested in.


do you want the leader or the follower? 
and about human interactions. who would ever want an independent dog and why?

as far as sport. is there a set of qualities that the dog must have? 
I don't care for sport per se, i only keep bringing it up because it seems the best pups go for sport and the best for pets. 
so I'm trying to see what makes the best pup. 

or it's something that makes a good sport dog will make a bad pet? so it's about your goals?

but since the consensus is that dogs should be bred to work the ones that have IT are the true gsds, no?


----------



## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

lalachka said:


> do you want the leader or the follower?
> and about human interactions. who would ever want an independent dog and why?
> 
> as far as sport. is there a set of qualities that the dog must have?
> ...


Personally, I want one that's in the middle. A dog that's not afraid to think for itself but always biddable and wants to work with me

Some people like independent dogs because they don't want a dog that will follow them around the house, whining if the door is closed, etc. There are different levels of dependence - Jazzy is extremely dependant, she freaks if I don't allow her to follow me and is literally glued to my side. Delgado is not so dependant, he loves to see where I am at all times but he doesn't need to be right at my feet. He'll play outside without freaking if I ask, though he prefers if I come out as well

That's the problem, there is no BEST dog. Each dog is unique and fitting them to the best home possible is what good breeders learn to do. So Delgado may not fit into your home and your dog may not fit into my home. That doesn't mean that either are bad dogs in any way, it just means that it's not a good fit.


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

martemchik said:


> Basically…the more time you spend around dogs or puppies, the easier it is to see the differences and the easier it gets to figure out what you like and what you don’t like. Puppies show their drive levels. It’s fairly apparent when you see 10 puppies in an exercise pen, which ones will have what types of drives and what level of drive. You’re basically comparing them to themselves, so you can rank them from a 1-10 very easily.
> 
> As for conformation…that takes a lot of experience, but young puppies do show certain traits that you can tell when they grow up, they’ll perform well at a show. I personally don’t care for conformation shows, so I never focused on that. As far as conforming to the standard…a good breeder will have all their dogs conform to the standard and hopefully not have any major physical deficiencies that don’t allow the dog to work (weak pasterns and things of that nature). In a good litter…the dogs won’t be that different conformation wise, and should all be able to work. As far as show performance, same as in work, you’ll have different levels of possibility of success, and one will always be the best. For that, you have to understand what judges look for, and how that presents itself in a puppy. The thought process behind the “best show prospect” is that if the litter was competing against itself…which puppy would get “best of breed” 9/10 times. This actually happens a lot in the less popular breeds because there might only be one breeder of that breed in the area, so it’s not rare to compete against littermates.
> 
> ...


problem is, as I pmd you, I don't have anywhere I can go where I can watch and ask questions. it had to be a gsd place because I'm only interested in them. 
right now I don't know anything so I see videos of training or videos of dogs trotting and it all looks amazing to me. I can't tell much.

but i see what you mean. I will keep looking. I know that only rl experience will teach me what I want to know. 

and for pups. that's why I'd like to breed some day. that's a huge learning experience.


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Castlemaid said:


> My breeder sends out weekly "pupdates" to prospective owners with all their observations of the litter. Things they look for is which puppy is really pushy, which one is always first at the milk bar, which ones gets pushed out of the way too easily. Which pups are going to investigate new toys, which ones are the first ones to escape the whelping box and go exploring. Which ones prefer the security and company of their littermates, which ones will seek out people and attempt to interact on their own, etc.
> 
> Looks at energy levels - which pups will chase the flirt pole until they pass out from exhaution, which ones are more balanced, which ones will give a bit of an effort then get distracted by something else.
> 
> ...


fascinating)))))) I reread your post 7 times lol. just imagining what it looks like irl. 

so what happens with the pup that gets pushed out of the way easy? pet home lol?
I'm looking for the connection between the observations and what it might translate into once they're grown.
you said that your breeder's description was on point. if it's not too personal, can you post her observation and then how it manifested into the dog you're living with


or a pup that will chase until they drop. when is that ever useful? is that what sport people want?

and I asked Lee this but she probably didn't see it yet. who wants a dominant dog and why? are there any good things you get out of dominance? bad thing I'd imagine is living with a dog like that


----------



## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

It is the same here. Watched from the get go. We handle our dogs and pups, not someone else. So, we see the little things, as well. The different testing, watching, situations.

Plus, personally knowing the pedigrees, from dogs that we know and Gabor works/seen progeny from. Know what to watch for, etc, because you do this with your own dogs that you train and test yourselves.


----------



## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

lalachka said:


> problem is, as I pmd you, I don't have anywhere I can go where I can watch and ask questions. it had to be a gsd place because I'm only interested in them.
> right now I don't know anything so I see videos of training or videos of dogs trotting and it all looks amazing to me. I can't tell much.
> 
> but i see what you mean. I will keep looking. I know that only rl experience will teach me what I want to know.
> ...


The New York Schutzhund and Police Dog Club is pretty close to Queens, if you can get out there I'd check them out!

Personally, I wouldn't really want a really independent dog. I don't want a needy dog, either. I want a dog who is interested in me, and what I'm doing, and what they can do for me (this is not the same thing as neediness). Biddability makes training so much easier. A dog who is too independent says "eh.... who cares?" In my own experience, it's much harder to harness and use drive to your advantage if your dog couldn't care less about what you're doing and what you want. My female was very easy to work with because she is extremely motivated by food and toys- and she learned pretty quickly on that I control those rewards. She will work her little butt off for me trying to figure out what I want, because I control all the things that make her excited. Eventually, when I phased out rewards, she was just as biddable because she had made that connection. Some dogs never really do, and it's much harder to work with them when there's nothing "in it for them." 

When my girl was a young puppy, she was very gregarious... explored everything, constantly, all the time. Always on the go, and very motivated by toys and treats from the start. She wasn't shy and nothing phased her in terms of surfaces, sounds, etc. She wasn't the pushiest of the siblings, but she was pretty high up there in the pecking order. On the flip side, while she was a little explorer, she was always very interested in what people were doing. She was very intense- even when she was young she would stare at you forever if you had food. Focus was not something we had to work on, ever. You could do obedience for days with her and she'd keep coming back for more. She was exactly what the breeder said she would be from day one, and exactly what the "pedigree people" said she would be.

None of that has changed as she's grown. She'll chase a ball or find articles until she keels over, but she settles vey nicely in the house. She is still very intensely focused during obedience, even as we've phased out rewards for learned behaviors. She is the "queen bee" but isn't pushy about it. She doesn't need to be slowly introduced to things. On a sport level, she definitely has the drive and biddability and enjoys the work. She gets crazy about nose work (in a good way). The small share of bite work I have done with her, she turned on and it "clicked" pretty much immediately (which was the coolest thing ever to watch) and turned off just as easily. She is also exactly like the sibling of hers from a previous litter that made me decide to pick her.

She was bred to be a sport dog, and was sold to me as a sport home. However, my life circumstances have changed and I can't commit the time to sport, so she's in an active pet home. I do a lot of work with her (nose work, obedience) and she will eventually work my livestock. But, on days when I'm super busy and can't do squat with her, she's fine. She's not eating the walls or spinning in circles. She's laying under my feet. A lot of people mistake drive and neurotic energy.

I guess my point is, pet or sport homes are not mutually exclusive. It depends a lot on the home and a lot on the dog. Delta would be a nightmare in a totally inexperienced home, but with someone willing to seek out some guidance and to put in the time and effort to figuring out what makes her tick, she'd make a fine pet. She'd also make an excellent sport dog (I always feel like I have a Ferrari that I use to drive around the block).


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Sometimes you also have to consider not what sport people want...but what sport people can deal with. Sport people have a higher tolerance for "bad behavior" or over the top drive than a pet home would...so as a breeder, you don't want to place that crazy puppy into a pet home because chances are higher it comes back to you.

People that work their dogs...have the dedication and the resources to work through some problems that many pet people wouldn't understand. Or they'd try to "fix" issues without realizing what the core of the problem is. There are a lot of things to think about when placing puppies.

Like...I like an independent dog. I don't need a cuddly dog. I don't need a dog that needs to look at me for direction and one that can entertain himself/herself without needing me. It also shows up in the work...when a dog doesn't come back to you when there is a lot of stress, and doesn't need it's handler to get through situations. Families...might not like that, they'd start to think the dog doesn't love them, doesn't want to be near them, ect. It's just a different mind frame.


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

LoveEcho said:


> The New York Schutzhund and Police Dog Club is pretty close to Queens, if you can get out there I'd check them out!
> 
> Personally, I wouldn't really want an independent dog. I want a dog who is interested in me, and what I'm doing, and what they can do for me (this is not the same thing as neediness). Biddability makes training so much easier. A dog who is too independent says "eh.... who cares?" In my own experience, it's much harder to harness and use drive to your advantage if your dog couldn't care less about what you're doing and what you want. My female was very easy to work with because she is extremely motivated by food and toys- and she learned pretty quickly on that I control those rewards. She will work her little butt off for me trying to figure out what I want, because I control all the things that make her excited. Eventually, when I phased out rewards, she was just as biddable because she had made that connection. Some dogs never really do, and it's much harder to work with them when there's nothing "in it for them."
> 
> ...


I'm willing to drive. I emailed that club 6 times I think. got some automated email with the price and that's it. 
actually, it's on my outlook calendar as a reminder to call and it pops up every few weeks. I don't give up)))))
no luck yet. 

if you only knew how many people I've asked. people on this board too)))) 

I also tried another club in long island and they're full. however, the guy said I can just come train with him. I'm thinking about it. 

see, that sounds amazing (your dog)
I sometimes feel like I'm pulling teeth when I train with my dog. it might be that I'm boring or that there are too many distractions but he wants anything else but me.
once I give up and sit on the grass he comes right up to me, licks me to death and then lays down next to me to chew a stick. so it's not that he doesn't want to be next to me, he's just not interested in my training. I probably bore him to death. or he has low drives. 

actually sticks make him go nuts. not sure how to transfer that into anything. 
balls do too. 

and yeah, your dog doing bitework (or anything really) is amazing to watch. I love anything he does. even just listening to his barks, they're so different and pretty


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

martemchik said:


> Sometimes you also have to consider not what sport people want...but what sport people can deal with. Sport people have a higher tolerance for "bad behavior" or over the top drive than a pet home would...so as a breeder, you don't want to place that crazy puppy into a pet home because chances are higher it comes back to you.
> 
> People that work their dogs...have the dedication and the resources to work through some problems that many pet people wouldn't understand. Or they'd try to "fix" issues without realizing what the core of the problem is. There are a lot of things to think about when placing puppies.
> 
> Like...I like an independent dog. I don't need a cuddly dog. I don't need a dog that needs to look at me for direction and one that can entertain himself/herself without needing me. It also shows up in the work...when a dog doesn't come back to you when there is a lot of stress, and doesn't need it's handler to get through situations. Families...might not like that, they'd start to think the dog doesn't love them, doesn't want to be near them, ect. It's just a different mind frame.


I have more dedication and willingness to learn what lies under the problem than a few sport people put together lol

I bugged many people to death when I was trying to fix reactivity. some avoid me now))))) but my dog doesn't react anymore)))))

but I'd never be able to prove that to a breeder. that's why I'm so bothered with the pet home labels. I don't want leftovers from sport homes. not being mean. 

and i def need a cuddly dog. actually, my dog wasn't cuddly when I got him lol. I made him this way. they do take on your personality to an extent.


----------



## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

lalachka said:


> I'm willing to drive. I emailed that club 6 times I think. got some automated email with the price and that's it.
> actually, it's on my outlook calendar as a reminder to call and it pops up every few weeks. I don't give up)))))
> no luck yet.
> 
> ...



If he offered to let you come out and train, take him up on it! Even just going and watching, without bringing your dog, is so helpful (and a lot less overwhelming initially). It's a huge commitment to actually join a club, so take as much time as you can in any outlet you're given to explore.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

lalachka said:


> I have more dedication and willingness to learn what lies under the problem than a few sport people put together lol


Not being mean or anything...but do you? You don't currently belong to a club, you don't want to go longer than a certain distance to get to one? You have to prove that kind of stuff rather than just say you have it. I know you're on here trying to figure stuff out all the time...but a computer/keyboard is easy. It's at home. It doesn't take that much time, or money. I know you've done a lot, and always ask questions. But its one thing to work through your current problems with internet help and another to actually dedicate time to training something like IPO or PSA.

And just to elaborate on my point...most sport people wouldn't find a lot of things problems that pet/family people do. Like...dog chasing small critters could be considered a problem in a pet home...a sport home wouldn't think twice about it.


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

LoveEcho said:


> If he offered to let you come out and train, take him up on it! Even just going and watching, without bringing your dog, is so helpful (and a lot less overwhelming initially). It's a huge commitment to actually join a club, so take as much time as you can in any outlet you're given to explore.


the only thing stopping me is i want to make sure he's good. I thought all clubs are good but then read and saw that some are not. how can I research a trainer? Google doesn't help much or I'm not looking right


----------



## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

lalachka said:


> I have more dedication and willingness to learn what lies under the problem than a few sport people put together lol
> 
> I bugged many people to death when I was trying to fix reactivity. some avoid me now))))) but my dog doesn't react anymore)))))
> 
> ...


Why wouldn't you be able to prove it to a breeder? Most breeders get really good at reading dog people- they can tell who isn't going to give a hoot and who is really invested (if anything, based on how much research the person did beforehand, how much time they spent working with another dog, etc)

Like I said, pet homes and sport homes are not mutually exclusive. It's not necessarily that breeders put "leftovers" to pet homes. Will a breeder ensure that a puppy with a lot of drive who shows tremendous promise for work goes to a sport home? Sure- it's how they get their name out there (the common thread of advice is always "go see dogs working and see what you like"). But that doesn't mean that they say, "well, these puppies are crap, we'll give them to a pet home." If you're bored with pet home labels, what would you prefer be used? My dog isn't working, so she's a pet :shrug: it's not offensive. Do you want to be a sport home? An active pet home? What exactly are your goals? Those are the things that breeders pay attention to.


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

martemchik said:


> Not being mean or anything...but do you? You don't currently belong to a club, you don't want to go longer than a certain distance to get to one? You have to prove that kind of stuff rather than just say you have it.
> 
> And just to elaborate on my point...most sport people wouldn't find a lot of things problems that pet/family people do. Like...dog chasing small critters could be considered a problem in a pet home...a sport home wouldn't think twice about it.


I know about your second paragraph. about your first - I'm willing to drive. I can't find a club that takes me. and I've proven it to myself with the stuff I've done for my dog. but I'm still looking for a club
I'd drive up to 2 hours.


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

LoveEcho said:


> If he offered to let you come out and train, take him up on it! Even just going and watching, without bringing your dog, is so helpful (and a lot less overwhelming initially). It's a huge commitment to actually join a club, so take as much time as you can in any outlet you're given to explore.


I meant to pay for training. I'd still do it just would like to know who he is first


----------



## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

lalachka said:


> I meant to pay for training. I'd still do it just would like to know who he is first


I know, but I mean that most clubs will let you come out and watch and ask questions, even if they're full (it usually takes a while before they let someone join, anyways). 

As for finding out who is legit... talk to people. Ask them if they know this person, what their experiences were. Go out to that club, see what the vibe is like, talk to members. Talk to members of other clubs about him. You'll likely get a good read on whether the guy's a nut or not.


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

LoveEcho said:


> I know, but I mean that most clubs will let you come out and watch and ask questions, even if they're full (it usually takes a while before they let someone join, anyways).
> 
> As for finding out who is legit... talk to people. Ask them if they know this person, what their experiences were. Go out to that club, see what the vibe is like, talk to members. Talk to members of other clubs about him.  You'll likely get a good read on whether the guy's a nut or not.


thank you for this!! I'm going. 

sorry, back to the thread


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Go find a group of people training dogs to do something and do it. Every hour spent watching and working dogs is worth 100 reading stuff on this board. 

Just do it. Agility, Nosework, flyball, lure coursing, OB, IPO, PSA, herding, dock diving, disc dog, dog dancing, something... Don't worry so much about finding the perfect thing. Just go do something and if you both like it, keep doing it. 

If you want to understand dogs, you have to put yourself in a position to learn about them. Sitting at a computer is not going to get it done.


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

LoveEcho said:


> Why wouldn't you be able to prove it to a breeder? Most breeders get really good at reading dog people- they can tell who isn't going to give a hoot and who is really invested (if anything, based on how much research the person did beforehand, how much time they spent working with another dog, etc)
> 
> Like I said, pet homes and sport homes are not mutually exclusive. It's not necessarily that breeders put "leftovers" to pet homes. Will a breeder ensure that a puppy with a lot of drive who shows tremendous promise for work goes to a sport home? Sure- it's how they get their name out there (the common thread of advice is always "go see dogs working and see what you like"). But that doesn't mean that they say, "well, these puppies are crap, we'll give them to a pet home." If you're bored with pet home labels, what would you prefer be used? My dog isn't working, so she's a pet :shrug: it's not offensive. Do you want to be a sport home? An active pet home? What exactly are your goals? Those are the things that breeders pay attention to.


My goal is to have a happy pet. If doing sport makes him happy then I'd do it. Maybe then I'd be doing it for me, once I tried and liked It. Right now it's for him. 

Lol so where do the crap pups go then?

Its not the label itself, that's just a word. It's what's behind it. Maybe I'm reading too much into it.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I'm with echo...

If you know where and when they train...just show up. What's the worst they can say?

I can guarantee you the club has dealt with countless people that have emailed and been interested and just don't show up. So they just don't do that anymore. Plus...the people answering those emails, are volunteers, they work their dogs, but the club isn't their job. Most people...care about their dog and their dog only. So it's not their top priority to answer back emails from people they don't know and don't think will stick it out.

9/10 people...don't come back after 3 months so it gets annoying communicating with people that don't actually do anything.


----------



## marshies (May 18, 2011)

I don't see what's wrong with getting "leftover sports pups' for pet homes.
These are just my 2 cents, and I definitely am a pet home.

For example, a working home might want a dog with a higher drive, and higher energy level. I know for a fact my dog is lower-medium energy level in comparison with other working breeds (lab, etc). I don't think I would would want a higher energy dog. Though that dog might be the "better" dog, it's not a dog I have the energy, experience, or time for. 

If you wanted that in your dog, I'm sure you could communicate it to your breeder. The breeder has an incentive to place their most promising working dog in a working home so they can get their name out, but I'd like to think most of them are also interested in seeing their puppies in happy fitting homes. 

I think for most inexperienced owners, it's articulating the traits that you want from a dog to the breeder. Prior to getting pup, I really just told my breeder send me whatever. Now I know some of the traits I want more in a dog, and some of the traits I like about my dog.


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

David Winners said:


> Go find a group of people training dogs to do something and do it. Every hour spent watching and working dogs is worth 100 reading stuff on this board.
> 
> Just do it. Agility, Nosework, flyball, lure coursing, OB, IPO, PSA, herding, dock diving, disc dog, dog dancing, something... Don't worry so much about finding the perfect thing. Just go do something and if you both like it, keep doing it.
> 
> If you want to understand dogs, you have to put yourself in a position to learn about them. Sitting at a computer is not going to get it done.


I'd like whatever it is be specific to gsds 

I'm going to see that guy and also see if he lets me watch them train. I didn't realize that was possible until Echo said it. I thought you either join and go or don't go at all.


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

martemchik said:


> I'm with echo...
> 
> If you know where and when they train...just show up. What's the worst they can say?
> 
> ...


I'm going. I didn't realize I can do that. It didn't even cross my mind to ask him but I will once I go for the eval for training. You're probably right, they don't want to waste time until they see commitment.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I think your idea of the range of dogs is very broad. The dogs aren’t that different. A good breeder, will have a lot of very good dogs. All the puppies will be good. It’s just that some of them will be better for something and others will be fine for another thing.

My idea of a “crap” dog is one that has uncontrollable aggression, some sort of genetic disease, or something else that makes it either a financial or a psychological hardship to the owners. Those dogs shouldn’t exist period. 

I think you’d be really well served to see a few dogs out of the same litter develop. You’ll understand the difference between an outstanding IPO dog and one that will do it, but not be that amazing at it. Not saying one that can’t be titled…just one that probably shouldn’t be bred over its sibling. Those small differences aren’t hard to see even when the dogs are 8 weeks old.


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

lalachka said:


> I'd like whatever it is be specific to gsds
> 
> I'm going to see that guy and also see if he lets me watch them train. I didn't realize that was possible until Echo said it. I thought you either join and go or don't go at all.


The only breed specific things will be a breed club. 

It doesn't make sense to me to limit yourself. Just go do something with your dog. Fama would be happiest doing bite work, but she enjoys doing anything and everything with me.


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

martemchik said:


> I think your idea of the range of dogs is very broad. The dogs aren’t that different. A good breeder, will have a lot of very good dogs. All the puppies will be good. It’s just that some of them will be better for something and others will be fine for another thing.
> 
> My idea of a “crap” dog is one that has uncontrollable aggression, some sort of genetic disease, or something else that makes it either a financial or a psychological hardship to the owners. Those dogs shouldn’t exist period.
> 
> I think you’d be really well served to see a few dogs out of the same litter develop. You’ll understand the difference between an outstanding IPO dog and one that will do it, but not be that amazing at it. Not saying one that can’t be titled…just one that probably shouldn’t be bred over its sibling. Those small differences aren’t hard to see even when the dogs are 8 weeks old.


I'm really hoping I will meet someone there that will let me do that. 

You meant to show up at the second club without asking? Lol I would. Is that ok to do?

For now I will meet the one that's full and see if he lets me cone watch. But the second one is much closer too


----------



## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

We welcome people out, even if we are full, so they can see how a club works, how our club works and how we train. We do ask to schedule ahead of time, so we can ensure that our club members are still able to focus and train and that there is someone to answer questions and to explain what is going on.

A club being full is not an excuse to block people from visiting - that tells you that they are not really training or something else....


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Smithie86 said:


> We welcome people out, even if we are full, so they can see how a club works, how our club works and how we train. We do ask to schedule ahead of time, so we can ensure that our club members are still able to focus and train and that there is someone to answer questions and to explain what is going on.
> 
> A club being full is not an excuse to block people from visiting - that tells you that they are not really training or something else....


I didn't ask. It didn't even cross my mind TO ask. Now that I know it's a possibility that's my goal. To get them to let me come. And then hopefully they see I'm committed and make room even if my dog might not be the best dog for this.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I can guarantee you that 50% of the dogs aren't going to be amazing IPO dogs. It's just not possible. Most people have a dog, start training, and just do it. The chances a club has even ONE national level dog in it are slim to none.

My "region" just had its regional to qualify for nationals. There were 6 IPO3 and 2 IPO1 dogs. That was at our "biggest trial" for the year that's pulling from at least a dozen clubs in the region.

Don't expect to be wowed.


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

martemchik said:


> I can guarantee you that 50% of the dogs aren't going to be amazing IPO dogs. It's just not possible. Most people have a dog, start training, and just do it. The chances a club has even ONE national level dog in it are slim to none.
> 
> My "region" just had its regional to qualify for nationals. There were 6 IPO3 and 2 IPO1 dogs. That was at our "biggest trial" for the year that's pulling from at least a dozen clubs in the region.
> 
> Don't expect to be wowed.


I will be wowed. it doesn't take much for me)))) to me any dog that heels is amazing


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

David Winners said:


> The only breed specific things will be a breed club.
> 
> It doesn't make sense to me to limit yourself. Just go do something with your dog. Fama would be happiest doing bite work, but she enjoys doing anything and everything with me.


My dog also doesn't care what we do as long as I'm there. I think that's all dogs. But I'm the one who has to commit the time, money and effort so I have to like it as well. 

Out of everything I know so far ipo is the one that might interest me. 
I want to learn to train heel. I think it looks beautiful. Also out of motion stuff. And a few other things I like in ipo. Nosework doesn't excite me but I probably am not doing it right. Bitework - kind of. So ipo obedience is what I really like. But I'd try the other 2 parts. 

And I want to learn about gsds. Their drives, how to read them, how to motivate them. Everything I'm reading about here I want to try. 
Another thing. I'm sure if I tried I'd like many other things. Like if agility was downstairs and I got to try it it's possible I'd fall in love with it. But it's not. To get anywhere I have to drive and first get the car (It's kept by my father's) so it's an effort. There's more that goes into it too. 
So for me to make that effort I want to be excited about where I'm going. Ipo is the thing that excites me now. Actually, watching heeling on old schh competition videos is what started my obsession with training to begin with. Agility didn't do that for me. 

I guess I don't understand why I have to constantly defend my choice when ipo is being suggested for novices on this forum left and right.


----------



## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

lalachka said:


> My dog also doesn't care what we do as long as I'm there. I think that's all dogs. But I'm the one who has to commit the time, money and effort so I have to like it as well.
> 
> Out of everything I know so far ipo is the one that might interest me.
> I want to learn to train heel. I think it looks beautiful. Also out of motion stuff. And a few other things I like in ipo. Nosework doesn't excite me but I probably am not doing it right. Bitework - kind of. So ipo obedience is what I really like. But I'd try the other 2 parts.
> ...


You're not being asked to defend your choice- just to help us figure out what your goals are and what experiences you hope/expect to gain  You're a little all-over and I think narrowing your scope a little, so the questions are just being asked so people can guide you to what suits you the best to meet those goals. That's all!


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

LoveEcho said:


> You're not being asked to defend your choice- just to help us figure out what your goals are and what experiences you hope/expect to gain  You're a little all-over and I think narrowing your scope a little, so the questions are just being asked so people can guide you to what suits you the best to meet those goals. That's all!


Ohh)))) It's just that it's not the first time this conversation comes up. I was told I shouldn't try ipo. 

I don't have goals. He's trained enough to go about life comfortably so anything I'm doing is for fun and to learn. 
We spend a few hours a day (more on weekend) outside together and I'm looking for things we can do. 

I'd like to learn how to train for ipo. I love the exercises there and they're challenging enough. I doubt he has the drives or the nerves for protection phase but I'd try 

I also want to learn to read gsds. So if I'm at a club and there's a patient person there lol I can just ask him what different things mean when dogs do them. You know what I mean? Like point them out and ask what they mean. 

I want to learn anything I can about gsds.


----------



## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

I think what David was saying,(and I could be wrong) is... participating in any venue with your dog you will learn.. Getting out there and actually getting involved with something, rather than trying to learn on a message board or watching videos.. 

Make an effort to go out where events are being held.. Doesn't have to be just GSD related..

The only real way to learn about dogs is to get involved, hands on stuff or having a mentor or trainer guide you.. 

If nothing else find a good dog training facility and see if you can watch or volunteer your time..


----------



## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

G-burg said:


> I think what David was saying,(and I could be wrong) is... participating in any venue with your dog you will learn.. Getting out there and actually getting involved with something, rather than trying to learn on a message board or watching videos..
> 
> Make an effort to go out where events are being held.. Doesn't have to be just GSD related..
> 
> ...


:thumbup:

To join an IPO club is a HUGE commitment, which is why most clubs don't just let anyone join immediately. Why were you told you shouldn't do it?


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

G-burg said:


> I think what David was saying,(and I could be wrong) is... participating in any venue with your dog you will learn.. Getting out there and actually getting involved with something, rather than trying to learn on a message board or watching videos..
> 
> Make an effort to go out where events are being held.. Doesn't have to be just GSD related..
> 
> ...


For me it does  I'm shallow this way. I'm only interested in learning about gsds. 

But I'd go to gsd events. How do I find where they're held. 

Yes, I'd LOVE a mentor. I don't know where to find one. 
I'm going to see a trainer that has a club (club is full) so I'm hoping something comes out of it. 

I'd volunteer my time but same thing, don't know where to find a good one. 
If I like this guy I will offer to volunteer for him. 
That's a good idea, thank you. I will ask someone else if they'd want me to volunteer but I think he has enough already. 
Still, this is a really good idea. Thank you


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

LoveEcho said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> To join an IPO club is a HUGE commitment, which is why most clubs don't just let anyone join immediately. Why were you told you shouldn't do it?


I didn't realize it. I thought if they say no then that's it, no other options. I didn't realize I can prove my commitment and get a chance this way. I have hope now))

I don't know. Maybe martemchik knows, he was on that thread. I think it's because my dog is reactive and weak nerved (from my observations) so they thought it'd make him dangerous. 
I thought a club won't take a dog that's not suitable so I was confused why I was getting this reaction. There were some other things. 

Maybe martem can explain


----------



## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

lalachka said:


> I'm going to see a trainer that has a club (club is full) so I'm hoping something comes out of it.



Just for an FYI, my old IPO club was always "full". Then if someone was coming out all the time and really working hard. The club could vote to open a spot. Then they would vote on the person to fill that spot. I believe per that clubs by-laws, a person could be a guest for up to three or four months before a vote had to be taken. Every club is different, but this is how they did it. Also, I should add, the amount of people allowed had more to do with how long training days went. Otherwise I think they would allow more people.


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

mycobraracr said:


> Just for an FYI, my old IPO club was always "full". Then if someone was coming out all the time and really working hard. The club could vote to open a spot. Then they would vote on the person to fill that spot. I believe per that clubs by-laws, a person could be a guest for up to three or four months before a vote had to be taken. Every club is different, but this is how they did it. Also, I should add, the amount of people allowed had more to do with how long training days went. Otherwise I think they would allow more people.


thank you so much. I had no idea. I thought it was written in stone and had no idea they want to see commitment first. 

but now that you guys said it it makes perfect sense.


----------



## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

my breeder was supposedly doing testing for shutz prospects. I came in as a first time pet owner but did alot of research prior, they were on the first ever working line litter and basically let me choose? They told me all were similar but they had a couple favs., I let them choose for me.
My girl is great but with dogs she is submissive (not a problem in any way, she just lowers her ears and lets it be known shes not trying to boss anyone)so she was probably that way as a pup and they gave her to me knowing I had no experience. 
one noteworthy point= I visited my breeder for a shutz training session at around 9 months old. They had a strange handler hold her back while the helper made her bark. She passed the tests but he showed pics from the litter- one dog out of the litter wasnt fed a raw diet, mustve been free fed kibble. That one dog looked like crap, It was unrecognizable as a littermate to my 55 lb girl.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

lalachka said:


> For me it does  I'm shallow this way. I'm only interested in learning about gsds.


 Then your knowledge and understanding of training will be very limited. Open your mind to learning from all and you will be a significantly better handler, training and, thus, have a better understanding of GSD. A closed mind is an empty mind.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

On that thread…it was one person, who doesn’t know anything about how Schutzhund works commenting that your dog shouldn’t do it. She’s established herself as an idiot.

IMO…Schutzhund is the perfect place to take any dog. If it has issues, that’s the place where you’ll find people that will figure out how to get around those issues. I’ve seen amazing things happen with dogs when they were finally able to be themselves and become more confident within themselves. I’ve also seen how helpful it is for a handler to be more comfortable with the dog they have, finally understand why their dog is doing what it’s doing, and have the tools to manage it.

I guess I haven’t been to a club that “excludes” people yet. They try to get as many as possible. You want to train? Train. Show your commitment. Beginners will work protection at the end. I like the rule where EVERYONE is required to do tracking and obedience in order to do protection. Eliminates the people that just want a “protection dog.”

I’ll tell you this as well…other venues, will make you connections, and you’ll find places to train. It’s amazing how many groups aren’t on the internet, how many good helpers are out there that aren’t part of a club and are just training dogs. The guy I train with…isn’t part of a club. We have a good group of people, some EXTREMELY knowledgeable people in there that will help you with tracking and with obedience. I have a feeling, with as many people are there are in New York, there are more than just the clubs you’ve seen on the interweb.


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

lhczth said:


> Then your knowledge and understanding of training will be very limited. Open your mind to learning from all and you will be a significantly better handler, training and, thus, have a better understanding of GSD. A closed mind is an empty mind.


yeah I changed my mind already)))). I was at the park last night and caught myself being interested about other dogs as well, like what drives them, what their body language means. 

I still want to try ipo though. so far from everything I saw that's the only thing that excites me enough to go through the trouble of getting there. 
dock diving looks cool too but now that I know what swims in water it doesn't look that cool. flyball and disc is nice but I will lose all my hair watching him jump. he's really heavy. agility - from the videos not my thing. very possible that if I got to try it I'd like it. maybe some day.


----------



## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

What about treibball? That looks like tons of fun! 

Try Treibball! The New Herding Sport - No Sheep Required - Whole Dog Journal Article


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Blanketback said:


> What about treibball? That looks like tons of fun!
> 
> Try Treibball! The New Herding Sport - No Sheep Required - Whole Dog Journal Article


it does look cool. actually we will play a version of this at the park. thank you for this. 
I wouldn't train for this though. I like ipo obedience. that's where I want to put my energy. 

heel, out of motion and long distance commands. once I learn to train that I will see where I go from there.


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

martemchik said:


> On that thread…it was one person, who doesn’t know anything about how Schutzhund works commenting that your dog shouldn’t do it. She’s established herself as an idiot.
> 
> IMO…Schutzhund is the perfect place to take any dog. If it has issues, that’s the place where you’ll find people that will figure out how to get around those issues. I’ve seen amazing things happen with dogs when they were finally able to be themselves and become more confident within themselves. I’ve also seen how helpful it is for a handler to be more comfortable with the dog they have, finally understand why their dog is doing what it’s doing, and have the tools to manage it.
> 
> ...


thank you for this. that's what's brewing in my head too. whether I'm right or wrong I will find out. but i have it stuck in my head that ipo will help me learn about him and help him become confident. 

and yes, I also can't believe there are only 2!!! 
and none are in nyc. both are in long island. there are a few upstate 5 hours away. 

I've seriously thought about moving to the woods closer to the trainers lol. I'd do it if I knew I'd never fired or laid off because looking for programming jobs in the woods isn't easy)))))


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

IPO needs space. Cities don’t have that space. With real estate as expensive as it is, you have to be out in the middle of nowhere. You also don’t want people asking questions. Truth is, the public doesn’t understand training dogs to bite, and so you don’t want them seeing it. Public also thinks “stick hits” are animal cruelty…don’t need them seeing that either.

I know there are training places in Chicago that rent field houses. It’s super expensive. The training is crazy expensive due to that and is highly restrictive because of that. Club fees end up pricing a lot of people that would do the sport, out of it when you start moving training indoors and have to rent facilities. I know gas can get expensive, but in truth, it doesn’t get near as expensive as some of the club fees I’ve seen/heard of in Chicago. Can’t imagine what that would be in New York.


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

martemchik said:


> IPO needs space. Cities don’t have that space. With real estate as expensive as it is, you have to be out in the middle of nowhere. You also don’t want people asking questions. Truth is, the public doesn’t understand training dogs to bite, and so you don’t want them seeing it. Public also thinks “stick hits” are animal cruelty…don’t need them seeing that either.
> 
> I know there are training places in Chicago that rent field houses. It’s super expensive. The training is crazy expensive due to that and is highly restrictive because of that. Club fees end up pricing a lot of people that would do the sport, out of it when you start moving training indoors and have to rent facilities. I know gas can get expensive, but in truth, it doesn’t get near as expensive as some of the club fees I’ve seen/heard of in Chicago. Can’t imagine what that would be in New York.


yeah I came to the same conclusion about space. 
oh well, I'd drive. probably not on weekdays but def every weekend. 
my doggie also throws up on every ride lol. poor thing.


----------



## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Regional Clubs - Northeast

These are not Schutzhund clubs, but there are places to learn about GSD's.

Daphne


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Andaka said:


> Regional Clubs - Northeast
> 
> These are not Schutzhund clubs, but there are places to learn about GSD's.
> 
> Daphne


The closest is 3 and a half hours away. 

I'm going tomorrow to meet this trainer whose club is full and if it doesn't work out for whatever reason then I will badger the second club. 
As long as he's not pure force I'm sticking around though. Maybe I should've asked before going but oh well.


----------



## Aimeanda (Aug 14, 2014)

Look under the Mid Atlantic clubs: Regional Clubs - Mid Atlantic

Still a drive, but the Northern New Jersey Club is about an hour and a half depending on where you live in Queens.


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Aimeanda said:


> Look under the Mid Atlantic clubs: Regional Clubs - Mid Atlantic
> 
> Still a drive, but the Northern New Jersey Club is about an hour and a half depending on where you live in Queens.


thank you)))) NJ def works. 

I suck at geography. I never thought midatlantic is here lol
it actually sounds like it's in a diff country all together 

next time I will click just in case))))


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I went to there today. He said I can def get good obedience on him, showed me a few things. I will train there

Then my doggie was tested with a flirtpole and he went in total avoidance. Trying to hide behind me (I was told not to let him) 
He still liked him though, said good dog and looks good and I'm doing everything right except not buying a working dog lol. I still adore my dog, with his weak nerves and all)))))) I have weak nerves myself so we make a perfect couple. Two paranoid beings. 

But omg what a mal I saw there. What a beast. The energy is scary. But it's amazing to watch.


----------



## lauren43 (Jun 14, 2014)

Andaka said:


> Regional Clubs - Northeast
> 
> These are not Schutzhund clubs, but there are places to learn about GSD's.
> 
> Daphne



The ones in NY are no more than 2.5 hrs from me. I watched a trial. I loved watching the dogs perform and nearly every dog that trialled that day got their ipo1 or the next level. But as much as I enjoyed I'm still not really sure it's for me. It's a huge time commitment and with the added travel, well that's a ton of time.

I'm willing to do two nights a week, one local, one within an hour but that's about it for me. Though I'll be honest I can't wait to start! We will be doing agility and either fly ball or puppy pre-k (if we can't get into flyball)...


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

lauren43 said:


> The ones in NY are no more than 2.5 hrs from me. I watched a trial. I loved watching the dogs perform and nearly every dog that trialled that day got their ipo1 or the next level. But as much as I enjoyed I'm still not really sure it's for me. It's a huge time commitment and with the added travel, well that's a ton of time.
> 
> I'm willing to do two nights a week, one local, one within an hour but that's about it for me. Though I'll be honest I can't wait to start! We will be doing agility and either fly ball or puppy pre-k (if we can't get into flyball)...


I think this one is right by you
You said you're in Syracuse,right? This is the one from that page with no address 


http://www.iroquoisgsd.com


----------

