# Try to explain what I witnessed today...



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Try to picture this scenario:

2 dogs playing nicely in a small dog park / pen. No other dogs in there. One dog was a golden retriever about 70 lbs, the other looked like a wire terrier mix about 40 lbs.

Along comes a very excited GSD about 15 months about 70 lbs. She enters the arena. The GSD and Golden go into an immediate play bow, and start roughing it up. The GSD starts to get too rough, and the Golden seemed to get annoyed and correct the younger GSD.
Immediately after being "corrected", the GSD turns around and attacks the terrier, while avoiding the Golden that just brushed it back. Suddenly a bad dog fight, with the GSD getting very aggressive.

I witnessed the entire incident. Kira wasn't with me. My wife was jogging with her on the other side of the park. I stopped to say hello to the golden owner.

Why did the GSD suddenly turn aggressive on the smaller dog, after getting corrected by the Golden Retriever?

Just curious about your thoughts.


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

Redirection? The GSD was corrected by the Golden, so took out his anger on the smaller dog.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

With out being there my guess would be the dog was establishing rank. He was rebuffed by the golden so he felt the need to assert him self over the terrier to make sure his position as middle ranked dog was established. Again, just a guess.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

robk said:


> With out being there my guess would be the dog was establishing rank. He was rebuffed by the golden so he felt the need to assert him self over the terrier to make sure his position as middle ranked dog was established. Again, just a guess.


 
+ 1


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Redirected aggression maybe.

I had a couple of bitches at my place that would have killed each other. They would fence fight, down and up, and after coming away from the fence, the one would grab a squeeky toy and squeek and shake the heck out of it. Once she grabbed a young male pup -- not hers. I was right there and she let go immedieately, but at that point I realized the fence fighting had to stop and put up a large tarp so they could not make faces at each other. 

I think it was misplaced or re-directed aggression.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Mary Beth said:


> Redirection? The GSD was corrected by the Golden, so took out his anger on the smaller dog.


Yes, I saw the redirection. My dog does this when I used to correct her biting (as a pup)at home. She would immediately turn to a dog toy, and take out her frustration.



robk said:


> With out being there my guess would be the dog was establishing rank. He was rebuffed by the golden so he felt the need to assert him self over the terrier to make sure his position as middle ranked dog was established. Again, just a guess.


I suspected this as well. 

I found the behavior very interesting, and I wanted to learn more.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Poop rolls down hill


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Nigel said:


> Poop rolls down hill


True..
But how in this case?


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Anthony8858 said:


> True..
> But how in this case?


Just a guess, but if the GSD is a social climber, he may want to retaliate, but knows the golden is the dominate, so he turns to the terrier instead.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

robk said:


> With out being there my guess would be the dog was establishing rank. He was rebuffed by the golden so he felt the need to assert him self over the terrier to make sure his position as middle ranked dog was established. Again, just a guess.


Yep, pecking order.

I scolded my Pebbles (pscho Dachshund) the other day and as soon as I did, she snarked at up the "newbie" dog to our house, Meyer. He's fairly laid-back and really likes her, so he tolerated it without return snark.

But it's like...all doo-doo runs down hill?

LOL 


Nigel said:


> Poop rolls down hill


I typed my reply before I saw yours...


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## Jo Ellen (Aug 30, 2011)

Golden retrievers are known for being friendly to all but they sure can stand up for themselves when they need to -- they are not dogs to be "picked on."


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

lol i still am trying to pin-point exactly when and how GR's and Labs became the international icons of doclility - both breeds were serious working dogs not for pet owners way back when i was a kid, especially the lab, many were quiet civil aggressive.


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## Jo Ellen (Aug 30, 2011)

My golden retriever will not pick a fight but she will quickly settle one.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Redirected aggression. My oldest dog has done this. For example she is barking at the window and another dog approaches, she is mad that the other dog is at the window, but she can't get to it, so she goes for the dog inside that is in her way. I stop her immediately and my two other dogs do not attempt to go near her when she is in this state..they back down and let her have the window. It doesn't happen all the time by any means, but it has happened.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Very interesting replies.

I love this stuff 

One day, I'm gonna have a long talk with Cesar Milan.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I'd agree w/redirection if they attacked any old dog, but they pick an underling in these situations


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

my young man-oriented gsd will stop barking at someone if my older female mutt comes over and decides she wants to bark at the same stimulus - i often wondered if it was deferring behaviour to a senior/higher ranked dog???


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> I'd agree w/redirection if they attacked any old dog, but they pick an underling in these situations


So you're saying that it's a better chance of establishing pack order?


That small scene reminded me of a thread a number of months ago. I think it was Cliffson1 talking about how there's always an evolving rank system in a dog park, and that's one of the main reasons why dog parks generally don't work.
In this case, maybe it was small, but it appears to be the same.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Not necessarily "establishing" but "reinforcing"?

I injured Pebble's 'pride' and she was going to remind the lowest on the totem pole that he was still the lowest and she was definitely above him.

I have seen her redirect and she redirects on the closest dog - regardless of rank. 

I see redirection as being a different type of 'frustration' than what occurred with me disciplining her, or the dogs @ the park disciplining that dog.

Redirection is a 'heat of the moment' and because they can't bite the object of their anger/frustration, they turn to the closest dog there. Often the dog they redirect on is injured or taken so by surprise they back off and if an owner or other human is nearby (or even walking the dog who redirected) they can control the situation.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

x11 said:


> my young man-oriented gsd will stop barking at someone if my older female mutt comes over and decides she wants to bark at the same stimulus - i often wondered if it was deferring behaviour to a senior/higher ranked dog???


Now that you mention this, I may have witnessed this in my own house.
In addition to my 18 month female GSD, I have a 7 year old Maltese. My GSD will make some noise if she hears something in front of the house. However, if the Maltese starts barking AFTER my GSD, the GSD will stop barking, and allow the maltese to continue.

Also witness a similar food ritual....
I've given my GSD a Milkbone. There are times, where my GSD will bring the bone, and place it right in front of the Maltese. She will then lay down directly in front of the Maltese, and watch as the maltese eats "her offering".
What's up with that? Is she respecting her senior higher ranked canine?


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> Not necessarily "establishing" but "reinforcing"?
> 
> I injured Pebble's 'pride' and she was going to remind the lowest on the totem pole that he was still the lowest and she was definitely above him.
> 
> ...


Thanks for explaining this.
So interesting.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Redirection is a real issue and some dogs _will_ redirect on humans, if no other dog is around.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> Redirection is a real issue and some dogs _will_ redirect on humans, if no other dog is around.


I can see this happening.


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

x11 said:


> lol i still am trying to pin-point exactly when and how GR's and Labs became the international icons of doclility - both breeds were serious working dogs not for pet owners way back when i was a kid, especially the lab, many were quiet civil aggressive.


That's what I was thinking....:crazy:

Just saw on a dog show (can't remember which one) that said GR's are fast becoming the most biting breed. The lead-in was the biting story, but I admit, my mind went to other breeds (before GR was announced). Figures, only our society can take a beautiful, intelligent, soulful breed - & ruin it.

Yep - sure sounds like "Poop runs downhill" to me!


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## NoVAGSDGuy (Mar 7, 2011)

Jo Ellen said:


> Golden retrievers are known for being friendly to all but they sure can stand up for themselves when they need to -- they are not dogs to be "picked on."



This is very true, a friend of mine had a Golden that I was very close to, and she was the epitome of what a good dog should be....except when another dog tried to take the toy she was playing with....then she established that she was not to be messed with and would usually make that dog bleed, even as it was running away....

His dog has since past, and its probably for the best that Abby and her never got to play, because Abby doesn't really understand your toys and hers, she shares hers, and kind of expects the same in return. To the point her and a dog with a similar disposition can even naw on separate ends of the same bone....lol She probably wouldn't take to kindly to the Golden attacking her whatever the reason....lol


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

I had an issue of redirection by a collie against Dharma the last time we went to our old dog park. There was a woman, Linda (who I actually thought was a friend) who had an older collie named Kit. Kit like to chase balls. Well Pippa doesn't like to chase balls but she likes to run with the dogs that chase them. I tried repeatedly to keep her from running with Kit but Linda continued to say it was okay and allow it. So when Linda would throw the ball I would distract Pippa long enough to give Kit a long head start and then release Pippa since Pippa was much faster. This arrangement worked well, for awhile. One day Linda threw the ball while I was on the other side of the park cleaning up after Dharma. Pippa caught up to get and knocked Kit over. I didn't see it so I can't say if it was done on purpose or an accident. Pippa does like to play rough and will body slam her sister but at the same time she is faster than Kit and it could have been an accident as well. I looked up to see Kit getting rolled. Now to be fair, this is a dog park and dogs to get rolled. I know mine have, it happens

Well, Kit took GREAT offense at it and jumped up ready to fight. However, Pippa was long gone but Dharma was nearby minding her own business. She has a ball she loves and was playing with by herself. Kit then charged her and attacked her. Dharma tried desperately to submit. Linda and I were running across the park yelling at Kit but Kit just continued to bite Dharma's neck and growl. Dharma continued to show every sign of submission and tried to walk away with a collie attached to her neck and biting her every step of the way. Just before we reached them, Dharma decided she had enough and turned and let Kit have it. She growled and grabbed Kit by the face and wouldn't let go. She never punctured her skin or made any mark. It was more of a warning of "bitch, if you don't STOP". We had to pry Dharma off of her so of course Dharma got blamed for being the aggressive, dangerous one. Linda actually had the nerve to report us. 

Next thing I know the head of AC is telling us that because my dogs "play too rough" if we are going to be in the park, my dogs have to be leashed. I even tried to explain to him that having leashed dogs in an unleashed park can CAUSE aggression but he didn't agree. We left and haven't been back since. We have since found a much better park to go to.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> Redirection is a real issue and some dogs _will_ redirect on humans, if no other dog is around.


Absolutely. I groom an Irish Terrier that is very dog-aggressive. Generally, he's fine while in the shop, but if another dog barks at him or even makes eye contact, it's on, and if I'm not careful he will redirect on ME.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

This morning, Kira was laying on her ottoman in front of her window. She would sit there most of the day, just observing everything.
Occasionally, someone would pass by with a dog, and she would start barking. If I'm home, I call her off, and do my best to discourage this behavior.

Yesterday, she starts going bonkers at the window, and I call her off. She listened, and turned away. However, whatever it was, was irresistible, so she turned and wanted more. Again, I called her off. Se was all puffed up, and in a heightened state.

As she turned to walk towards me, she grabbed a nearby shoe, and started growling and shaking it like crazy.

Is this an example of redirected aggression?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Yes that sounds like it. 
I'll try to record my Doxies getting hyped up and Pebbles redirecting, but honestly, it's something I prefer to avoid.

Kira's adrenalin was worked up and she needed somewhere for it to go. Another dog may have grabbed your leg, she grabbed a shoe and shook it.
Honestly, it's a good idea to keep things like that around (not a shoe but a dog toy!) so they can do that and work out their tensions safely.


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