# My GS bit my daughter, time to put down



## donkeyturtle

We have had our female german shepherd for 5 years, named bella. She is well trained in the usual commands, and even goes to the bathroom where we want in her kennel. She has always been an indoor dog, except for exercise or if we're away for hours we leave her in our fenced in yard. In terms of her personality she often does not want to be touched or petted except by my wife. My wife spent most of the time with her the first couple years we had her, and bella is her baby. Bella in general does not want to have much to do with me or my daughter, she just prefers to not be bothered. 

The other day, Bella was sitting on the ground and Abby put her face close to Bella's face, saying she loved her. Bella then proceeded to bite Abby on the nose, causing a large cut, a puncture, internal bleeding and bruising. Bella had never bit anyone before, but Abby did know that she shouldn't be in Bella's face.

At this point, since Bella bit our daughter after being in our family 5 years, I think we have to have her put down. She is so anxious and skittish as it is, and I would not trust her in being around other people or kids. We don't have any behavioral specialists near our small town, even if we did have the time and ability to put in multiple hours trying to cure her anxieties. This is obviously a very difficult decision, especially for my wife. Not sure what I'm looking for in posting this....but feel free to respond with any thoughts.


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## middleofnowhere

According to I think it was Bill Campbell, this is one of the main causes of dog bites -- people, especially kids, putting their faces in dogs faces. 

I don't know what to tell you. Your daughter knew she shouldn't do this. She will forever remember why especially when her action led to the behavior that causes the dogs death. Really sad situation all around. I'm sorry. That's all I got.


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## Sp00ks

I can't say my reaction would be much different given similar circumstances. However, instead of putting her down, maybe find someone that has experience with the breed to give her a good home and let her live out her years vs. putting her down. 

You say you have had her 5 years, how old is she? 5 I presume?


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## Harry and Lola

This must be difficult for you. I have found females GSDs are much more aloof and like their independence compared to males and we have to respect this. You don't say how old your daughter is. I wonder if everything is good with Bella medically wise? Sometimes if a dog is sick their personality changes. At the end of the day, you have to do what is right for everyone - Bella, your daughter, your wife, you etc, if you decide not to keep Bella, rather than euthanzing her you could contact your local German Shepherd group and ask if they could rehome her to perhaps an older person with no children.


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## pineconeforestGSD

my prayers are with you and your entire family.i hope peace finds you.i would take my time following thru with any options until you have time to explore what happened.
again my prayers are sent to you and your entire family.


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## carmspack

you can not put the responsibility for a child doing what innocent children do --- " don't know what to tell you. Your daughter knew she shouldn't do this. She will forever remember why especially when her action led to the behavior that causes the dogs death. "
Not the child's action , how wrong to blame the victim"

This was a dog with known anti social behaviour . "She is so anxious and skittish as it is, and I would not trust her in being around other people or kids" But you did .

just a terrible situation. I hope and prey that your daughter is okay .


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## selzer

We don't know that this was a child though. We do not know how old the person that was bitten is. 

Is this someone who lives with you? And, how old is she. If she is 1 or 2 or 3, yeah, I think I agree with your position. If your daughter is from a previous marriage and is 16 or 21, usually lives with her mother, or is away at college, and hasn't had much contact with this dog -- doesn't live there, then I think it is harder for you, because you would be asking your wife to put down her dog, because of something that your daughter did, that probably wasn't a smart move. 

If she is an older child, ie. teen or an adult, and does not live with you, then I think you need to understand that while your dog bit, she bit once, caused pain and a wound, but did not maul the daughter. I know it is still awful, especially in the face, but the dog is not crazy, uncontrollable, unpredictable. Maybe she can be safely managed by the person who loves her most -- your wife. 

Rehoming a dog that will bite someone like this, is really a question. If your daughter is a child -- aged 10 or under, either work with the dog and an experienced trainer, or take the dog to the vet and have her put down. I think the latter makes more sense, but would be very hard to do. 

Sorry you are going through this. Having a dog for 5 years, it would be devastating. Probably moreso for the wife. 

BTW, it is the my daughter, not our daughter that makes me think that maybe the daughter is a little older and not the wife's daughter.


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## RubyTuesday

Consider her having her professionally evaluated. Perhaps she can be carefully, properly placed. I agree with Carmen that this is what children do. It's not 'bad', just appropriately childish. For this reason the safety of children (including friends & neighborhood scamps) s/b TOP PRIORITY in acquiring, keeping & managing dogs.


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## Waldi

I grew up with dogs, including GS, I was bitten by dog when I was about 6 years old. Dog was friendly never attacked anyone and I think I try to hug it. Bit me in the face and reality is dog and kid cannot be left alone especially when dogs are skittish. I have golden retriever that is 11 years and GS that is 14 months. I am never at ease around kids, especially younger than 8 years as I know that they do not know how dogs behave and they treat dog in a human way. As I don’t know details, it is hard to make a blame, but I would really had difficult time to make such a decision, as I would way if this was isolated incident or perhaps, this is more behavioral case. My golden is wonderful dog with kids and always was, but I have seen her growl at my son’s friend younger brother who was about two years (lucky I was around to spot and prevent any incidents), kid was not doing mach but looking at the dog and waving hands in front of it (about 2-3 feet away), so something set my extremely friendly do to react. I gave general rule and I do tell kids this is not a toy, I do not want you to play with dogs without adult present, also, I stress do not hug dogs and do not pet dog on their head. I know am paranoid when kids are around but it is so easy to get dog, especially GS, to misunderstood play for threatening situation (dominant behavior).
I am so sorry that your daughter got hurt, hopefully it will heal and there will be no physical or emotional scars (I still have a bit of scar on my cheek), you do have to make sure that she will have save environment. Before you make decision about putting your dog down, perhaps explore other options such as evaluation if dog is aggressive and maybe potential for putting dog for adoption. Good luck with decisions.


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## carmspack

it doesn't matter how old the child is -- 

Management . 

If you keep an animal with behavioural problems you have to protect that dog from harm , and others from harm , by managing the dog .
All this could have been prevented had the dog been put away while the daughter was visiting - "Bella in general does not want to have much to do with me or my daughter" -- then keep every one safe and crate her while you have the visitor . Dogs with problems require vigilance all the time. For their sake .


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## nikon22shooter

I have to agree with carmspack on this one. It's a ticking time bomb, why risk it.


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## Saphire

carmspack said:


> it doesn't matter how old the child is --
> 
> Management .
> 
> If you keep an animal with behavioural problems you have to protect that dog from harm , and others from harm , by managing the dog .
> All this could have been prevented had the dog been put away while the daughter was visiting - "Bella in general does not want to have much to do with me or my daughter" -- then keep every one safe and crate her while you have the visitor . Dogs with problems require vigilance all the time. For their sake .


This!

My last GSD had some aggression issues, it is a huge responsibility AND you are liable should you fail. If you fail many pay the price and in this case, the daughter, the dog and the owners of the dog. I cringe every time I read an OP has a fearful or reactive dog as a puppy as it is soooo much work and with that comes much stress. My guard was never down with my last GSD, I could not afford to take anything for granted.

I am so sorry the OP and their dog is in the position but most of all I hope the daughter is ok and not scarred long term both emotionally and physically.


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## llombardo

Nobody should be putting their face in the dogs face. Especially a dog that doesn't want anything to do with anyone. I would not put this dog to sleep. I would manage the dog.


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## Gretchen

Find a rescue that would take her. I was a child once myself and occasionally did the wrong things around my beagle which ended up with bites, once on my cheek. My dog bit right above my neighbor's eye (he was about 8 yrs old) because he was blowing in my dog's ear. Children are unpredictable, and if your daughter cannot be trusted, then find a new home for your dog - don't pts!

From what you described it sounds like your dog has not had a very happy life, indoors most of time, must pee in kennel, no socialization. Give your dog the life it deserves, find it a better home.


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## JakodaCD OA

unfortunately a rescue most likely would not take this dog on, she has a bite history no matter who's fault or who did what, she bit

Very sad for the dog, management may be a pain in the butt, it should have been done a long time ago..Now a person (I don't know how old your daughter is), has been bitten, the dog will pay with it's life.


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## Saphire

Gretchen said:


> Children are unpredictable, and if your daughter cannot be trusted, then find a new home for your dog - don't pts!
> .


I am sorry but honestly....what child can be trusted??? Kids will be kids and a child should not have to learn a lesson by being bit in the face!!

The owners failed, not the child!

If this dog is so fearful of people in its own household that its bites a family member, how much fun is the dog going to have out in public with strangers?


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## JakodaCD OA

I agree with Saphire, it's not the child, it's not the dog, and sorry OP, don't mean to be harsh, but it's the owners


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## my boy diesel

*Bella in general does not want to have much to do with me or my daughter, she just prefers to not be bothered. *

my thoughts 
since you asked
your fault completely and the dog should not 
have to die because of that
u knew she was antisocial yet let the child play
on the ground in the dogs face 
you even state she doesnt want to be bothered
huge mistakes on your part

Family Paws-New parent classes dog and baby
read the above site 
which can help you understand
appropriate and inappropriate interactions
between your child and dog


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## selzer

We are all assuming this is a child. The OP never says that it is. I hope they come back and clarify that. 

The OP does say the the daughter did know not to get into the dog's face. That suggests the daughter is at least old enough to be able to be expected to understand things. I am 45 and I am someone's daughter. If I go and get into my brother's dog Tiger's face, it will probably lay open my face. It's a dachsund/beagle mix and has already laid open his boy's face. 

Good thing most 45 year olds don't go around putting their faces into dog's faces. But a daughter can be pretty much any age. Does it make any difference if this is an adult with whether or not we feel the dog ought to be euthanized?


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## shepherdmom

Saphire said:


> I am sorry but honestly....what child can be trusted??? Kids will be kids and a child should not have to learn a lesson by being bit in the face!!
> 
> The owners failed, not the child!
> 
> If this dog is so fearful of people in its own household that its bites a family member, how much fun is the dog going to have out in public with strangers?


:thumbup:


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## Saphire

Lets say the "daughter" is not a child and/or is old enough to "know better". Does that now make it ok for the dog to bite a family member? 
From what the OP says, this was a serious bite, not a warning nip.

I am not judging, just curious if that changes opinions.

If this was my dog and I failed it by allowing it to be in a position that it bit a family member (especially a family member), the dog would be pts and it would be my fault and only my fault for ever allowing it to happen. That in itself would be so very difficult to live with but even worse would be if it bit again. That would be inexcusable.


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## Stevenzachsmom

Sue makes a very good point. I, too, hope the OP clarifies the age of the child. I have three children living at home. My baby is 15. My oldest is 24 and most likely to be bitten. She does not respect the dogs boundaries or thresholds. That is her fault. The dog and I both warned her.

My middle child was bitten in the face by a dog, when she was 6. Fortunately, it wasn't a bad bite. It wasn't our dog. It was an old farm dog. She hugged him, because he looked sad. I guess you could blame me. I only had time to yell, "DON'T!" Things happen real fast. Don't be too hard on the OP.


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## Stevenzachsmom

"Lets say the "daughter" is not a child and/or is old enough to "know better". Does that now make it ok for the dog to bite a family member? 
From what the OP says, this was a serious bite, not a warning nip."

No. I am absolutely not saying it is OK for the dog to bite. This dog needs to be managed. If they are unable to manage him, the kindest, safest thing would be to put him to sleep.


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## shepherdmom

In my opinion if a dog puts a serious bite (not a warning or an accidental nip) on a pack member no matter what the age child, adult or grandparent. (One that currently lives in the household and isn't new to the pack) then that dog has issues and its time to seriously consider putting the dog down.


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## Jack's Dad

I'm tired of people excusing the lousy nerves in this breed and others. 

It's not the dogs fault for their genetics but it is also not ok for dogs to bite family members. No matter what age. 

Unless a kid or adult really hurts or torments a dog, the dog should not bite.

Dogs should enhance family life and family life should enhance the dogs life. If you have to spend your life tip toeing, and managing around your own dog what purpose does the relationship serve.

There are people who like to take on this type of dog but for most it is a major stressor and a liability that can take a heavy toll on a family.


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## sparra

Jack's Dad said:


> I'm tired of people excusing the lousy nerves in this breed and others.
> 
> It's not the dogs fault for their genetics but it is also not ok for dogs to bite family members. No matter what age.
> 
> Unless a kid or adult really hurts or torments a dog, the dog should not bite.
> 
> Dogs should enhance family life and family life should enhance the dogs life. If you have to spend your life tip toeing, and managing around your own dog what purpose does the relationship serve.
> 
> There are people who like to take on this type of dog but for most it is a major stressor and a liability that can take a heavy toll on a family.


Amen to that!!!


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## selzer

I guess, I am wondering if this is an older kid, 17 -24 age, that hasn't lived with the dog, lives with her mom elsewhere, so she is kind of like a visitor to the dog. For a dog to bite someone it was raised with for 5 years, that is awful. 

I don't know why my brother let the dachsund beagle live to bite his kid again. It's still living. But, I guess, if the daughter is more like a visitor, does that make a difference. I mean, if Cousin Louisa comes over and bends down and into your dog's face, is it still a trip to the needle?


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## selzer

The other thing is, these people know the dog doesn't really like people other than the wife. The daughter knows not to get in the dog's face. Is it still a trip to the needle if you know your dog has problems, and you haven't tried to work with a trainer, and you haven't managed the situations? 

If the daughter doesn't live with them. They should crate the dog when she is there. 

If the daughter has lived with this dog for five years, and it suddenly bit her in the face, then that's really odd. Dog's either ill, or needs to be released from its demons.


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## sparra

donkeyturtle said:


> The other day, Bella was sitting on the ground and Abby put her face close to Bella's face, saying she loved her.



Reading the above just sounds like a younger child to me...but I could be wrong.


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## doggiedad

listen , i think you have some training issues, socializing issues and
not knowing dog issues and not knowing dog issues involves your
dog. rehome your dog and tell the people to whom you're rehoming
what happened with your dog and daughter. maybe your dog shouldn't
be around children.

i think not knowing a dog has a lot to do with your issues.


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## Chip18

I was gonna say.. some people should only have Gold Fish!

But instead I'll take liberties with this quote: "The price of having a dog with behavioral issues, is constant Vigilance!


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## RiverDan

Just my 2 cents, for what its worth.
First. Sorry about your situation.
We have two dogs, a GSD male, and a female Malamute. We like to think we are bringing them up as happy, non-agressive dogs. And they are very happy. My girlfriends son is 8 years old, the dogs are both around 1 year old. They are never alone, never allowed to play rough, he has to pet the dogs properly. We watch them interact.
If either one of our dogs bit him, even once, they'd have to die. It's just the way I feel.


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## David Taggart

The dog shouldn't be put down, because the dog didn't do anything wrong. When a puppy jumps on the adult dog - that one will correct the puppy by biting in the muzzle. When a child tries to hug the dog - the reaction would be the same. Just the skin is of a different type, child's skin is not protected by fur. This behaviour is not agressive, in fact, it is of a parental - the dog meant to teach the girl better manners. The dog *would not* do it again if the girl doesn't pester the dog with petting, patting and hugging, but rather play ball. Dogs are great with kids outdoors, not indoors, because they cannot escape anywhere.
In order to train your dog to tolerate touch of strangers you need a trainer. Otherwise, you know, people tend to raise hand above dog's head, and dogs recognize it as human agression. I warn every stranger who wants to pet my dog not to do that, only to scratch under her chin. It always better to ask the dog, would he like to be petted or not. If he likes, he would come to the stranger/unknown child himself.


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## carmspack

it does not matter how old the daughter is -- it still comes down to management because the problem was very familiar to the owners . They knew . Doesn't matter if it is a neighbour , or a visitor to the house .


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## selzer

David Taggart said:


> The dog shouldn't be put down, because the dog didn't do anything wrong. When a puppy jumps on the adult dog - that one will correct the puppy by biting in the muzzle. When a child tries to hug the dog - the reaction would be the same. Just the skin is of a different type, child's skin is not protected by fur. This behaviour is not agressive, in fact, it is of a parental - the dog meant to teach the girl better manners. The dog *would not* do it again if the girl doesn't pester the dog with petting, patting and hugging, but rather play ball. Dogs are great with kids outdoors, not indoors, because they cannot escape anywhere.
> In order to train your dog to tolerate touch of strangers you need a trainer. Otherwise, you know, people tend to raise hand above dog's head, and dogs recognize it as human agression. I warn every stranger who wants to pet my dog not to do that, only to scratch under her chin. It always better to ask the dog, would he like to be petted or not. If he likes, he would come to the stranger/unknown child himself.



Ya know, I would almost agree with you on this, except for the severity of the bite. I had Babs and Karma at the park yesterday with a couple of kids. Karma is used to being with her mother who is totally permissive with her pups. Karma turned 1 on January 29th. Babs is Jenna's (pup's dam) littermate. She's 8 1/2 years old. The pup was being a spazz, and pestering Babs, and Babs is not usually around Karma. She knows her, but she is not ever loose with her. Sometimes she is loose with Hepzibah who is almost 2. While she is tolerant, she is not nearly as tolerant as Jenna. 

She ended up snapping twice at the puppy's muzzle. These were little pops. And no connection at all. I then separated them and put them back into the car. GSDs are perfectly capable of giving a correction to a lesser pack member without breaking the skin. Some of them make noise so it sounds awful. Babs did not. It was simple communication, "I've had enough Sprout!" And I took the hint and managed the situation. 

Dog's can rip each other up too. If they want to. Their hide is not so thick that canine teeth do not penetrate. 

I think that with the added information that this dog is very anxious, my take is that the dog was protecting itself. It took the person in its face as a threat and bit out as a fearful reaction to what it took as a threat. 

Why the dog is like this, probably weak nerves. Management is the ONLY way to deal with this. And if this is a child, then you have to really search long and hard about whether you want your kid to never be able to bring friends over, and if you want to possibly subject her to more of the same. I think it is pretty cut and dried. If she is an adult, then it gets trickier. 

We have a fear-reactive dog whose triggers are well-known. Don't get in this dog's face, manage her environment to keep her below her threshold. Crate her when you have friends over. You do not have to kill the dog. It really isn't that the dog is bad, it is more that the dog has a problem. The dog does not seem unpredictable. 

It's a hard choice. I think the age of the daughter does make a difference, as well as how familiar the dog should be with the daughter. If the daughter is there for two weeks in the summer and a few weekends the rest of the time, I don't know if the dog should feel all that familiar with her so that she sees her as a member of the family that she should trust completely, and tolerate completely.


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## JenniCB

Jack's Dad said:


> I'm tired of people excusing the lousy nerves in this breed and others.
> 
> It's not the dogs fault for their genetics but it is also not ok for dogs to bite family members. No matter what age.
> 
> Unless a kid or adult really hurts or torments a dog, the dog should not bite.
> 
> Dogs should enhance family life and family life should enhance the dogs life. If you have to spend your life tip toeing, and managing around your own dog what purpose does the relationship serve.
> 
> There are people who like to take on this type of dog but for most it is a major stressor and a liability that can take a heavy toll on a family.


I hope I'm not hijacking the thread here but I really liked what Jack's Dad had to say. I grew up with a GSD as a child who you could pretty much climb all over and do what you wanted and she would stay totally placid. Apparently my parents chose her because when they met the dam, she actually had a deep cut across her nose where a toddler had hit her with a mug and she didn't react one bit so they thought both Mum and puppy would have a great nature. So I guess from what you are all saying I should assume that my childhood dog just had good genetics and that it shouldn't be assumed that all GSDs (of course I'm not including rescue dogs here or those with known issues) might not all be the same. So what about my 5 month old GSD that I currently own? Should I assume she could bite if my children do certain things until I see enough evidence otherwise? (so far she has had her tail and paws stood on and not reacted at all). 

I'm just wondering if it would be helpful for newbies like me if someone with experience could post a quick list of "these are the things that might cause a GSD to bite". I find it sad that a child can't hug a dog though as a beloved member of the family....but at the same time no one wants to face the dilemma that the poor owner who started this thread is.


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## selzer

No, you can't expect all GSDs to have stellar nerves. But a GSD that is raised with children should be pretty darn tolerant. I don't have kids, so I have to borrow my nieces, and my dogs only get to interact with them sometimes. A pup that is raised with children should be totally comfortable with the way kids run and scream, and rough house, and let them do pretty much anything, play with their tail, their ears, dig their hands in their food dish. 

If a dog is painful -- bad hips or something and a child jumps on them, the dog might growl or snap, because it is hurt, or to tell the child to be careful. It should not bite, not right away. Often the first sign of a painful condition is some form of aggression. 

Certainly dogs should be respected. A child should not be allowed to lay on top of the dog, ride the dog, kick the dog, shove pencils down it ears, or dig around in the food dish or bother it while it is eating.


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## LifeofRiley

doggiedad said:


> listen , i think you have some training issues, socializing issues and
> not knowing dog issues and not knowing dog issues involves your
> dog. rehome your dog and tell the people to whom you're rehoming
> what happened with your dog and daughter. maybe your dog shouldn't
> be around children.
> 
> i think not knowing a dog has a lot to do with your issues.


I am with doggiedad on this one. 

I actually don’t understand how people who don’t know the dog, the OP, or the family dynamics, can just sign off on euthanasia as the best option on the Internet. That is a very final solution.

There are plenty of households that would do just fine with a dog that wants to be a one-person dog. Re-homing should be considered.

I could really care less what a GSD should be able to tolerate re: kids, this thread is about an individual dog, a dog that I think - based on the information given to date. - has a good chance of being just fine in another household.


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## JenniCB

selzer said:


> No, you can't expect all GSDs to have stellar nerves. But a GSD that is raised with children should be pretty darn tolerant. I don't have kids, so I have to borrow my nieces, and my dogs only get to interact with them sometimes. A pup that is raised with children should be totally comfortable with the way kids run and scream, and rough house, and let them do pretty much anything, play with their tail, their ears, dig their hands in their food dish.
> 
> If a dog is painful -- bad hips or something and a child jumps on them, the dog might growl or snap, because it is hurt, or to tell the child to be careful. It should not bite, not right away. Often the first sign of a painful condition is some form of aggression.
> 
> Certainly dogs should be respected. A child should not be allowed to lay on top of the dog, ride the dog, kick the dog, shove pencils down it ears, or dig around in the food dish or bother it while it is eating.


Thanks Selzer. That sounds like a very reasonable response and one with which I agree. You have helped ease my worries a bit as a first time owner of a GSD who is currently a major landshark. I have 3 kids of my own and several nieces and nephews who are often over and I can't imagine the drama I would be put through with my in-laws if something happened never mind issues regarding euthanising the dog! I too feel that if a puppy is raised with kids then an acceptable amount of carry on from the kids should be accepted. I would never allow any child to do anything mean or harmful to a dog and would also not allow them to continue to interact with my puppy if they had been playing too long and I could see she'd had enough, or if I thought she wanted to go to sleep. In fact, my SIL commented to me that one of her young kids (age 6) can be a bit spiteful to dogs and in her opinion, if he gets bitten that's his own darn fault (though I'd still rather that happens with someone else's dog and not mine!) I guess this is where having a crate for your puppy comes in really handy. If you have any hyper kids coming over.....in they go. As for the kids who live with them though I'd like to think that all my babies, fur and human should be able to live in safety together. I do tell them not to put their faces right in Penny's but at the same time have done that a little bit myself to she how she responds and to get her used to it.


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## CleoPatrick

From your post it sounds like it's your kids fault, you knew the dog didn't like your wife and kid. So, why let them interact? It reminds me of my childhood, When I was three my older brother had gotten a Black Lab puppy. I was bitten by the black lab, Shadow when he was a year, I got stitches on my right check. But, to this day I remember it was not the dogs fault but, my own childish behavior of smuggling the dogs face and pulling his ears. My family still has the dog. I never hold him biting me against him, he is like a family member. When I was a bit older I was bitten on the thigh by a GSD at a friends birthday when I was pretending to push over my friend. Yet again I blame my own stupidity, I now own a GSD. So, think about it from different view points.


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## Saphire

LifeofRiley said:


> There are plenty of households that would do just fine with a dog that wants to be a one-person dog.


This is more than being a one person type dog.


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## JenniCB

LifeofRiley said:


> I could really care less what a GSD should be able to tolerate re: kids, this thread is about an individual dog, a dog that I think - based on the information given to date. - has a good chance of being just fine in another household.


You are right LOR which is why I apologised in case I was hijacking this thread. This is about this one poor animal and her fate and I too don't think she should be put down. I just know (even from my own in-laws) that many have a negative view of GSDs as aggressive, biting dogs so it's an issue that I am always very interested to learn more about. But I hope the OP reposts soon and lets us know how things are going.


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## Jack's Dad

LifeofRiley said:


> I am with doggiedad on this one.
> 
> I actually don’t understand how people who don’t know the dog, the OP, or the family dynamics, can just sign off on euthanasia as the best option on the Internet. That is a very final solution.
> 
> There are plenty of households that would do just fine with a dog that wants to be a one-person dog. Re-homing should be considered.
> 
> *I could really care less what a GSD should be able to tolerate re: kids, this thread is about an individual dog, a dog that I think - based on the information given to date. - has a good chance of being just fine in another household*.


You should care LoR. Too many of these nervous fear biting dogs are being produced. There will never be enough homes for all these "one man/woman" dogs.
This one story is a drop in the bucket.


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## LifeofRiley

Jack's Dad said:


> You should care LoR. Too many of these nervous fear biting dogs are being produced. There will never be enough homes for all these "one man/woman" dogs.
> This one story is a drop in the bucket.


Yes, I agree. But, I don't think a discussion on fixing the breed problems is particularly useful to this thread, or the OP. As you know, it is a topic I am generally interested in... so I hear you.

But, again, based on the information the OP provided, I think this particular dog could find a good home. We have no idea if this is a nervous, fear biting dog... or maybe just a 5 year old that is sick and in pain. We just don't know. I will never put forward a recommendation of euthanasia on the Internet if I don't have a good understanding of the facts of that particular case.


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## selzer

The dog has managed to live for five years without an incident. 

Now there has been an incident. 

With some management, and understanding, maybe the dog could live another five years without an incident. The key is management. The age of the family member that was bitten is significant in determining whether or not the dog should really be put down in my opinion. 

when you raise a pup from puppy on up, and have it for five years, I don't know if you should consider rehoming due to aggression. I think that if you can work with the dog, you work with the dog, if not you have the dog euthanized. For dogs that bite small children, the idea of rehoming to someone without small children sounds good, but the fact is, people without small children have contact with them. They sometimes have to rehome the dog for reasons of their own, and if they haven't seen the dog in action, they might not disclose the incident or the problems. A dog that seriously bites a small child without being in severe pain, total distress like drowning or something, a pencil down the ear maybe, well the dog needs to be freed from its demons. 

I think people really need to take responsibility for dogs they have raised for five years, and not shift the responsibility onto a third party.


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## Saphire

selzer said:


> I think people really need to take responsibility for dogs they have raised for five years, and not shift the responsibility onto a third party.


This I agree with.


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## Jack's Dad

Just to be clear I did not specifically recommend euthanasia. 

My point was that some on here automatically assume people are idiots and any incident with a dog is their fault. I can't say what their decision should be but there are not a lot of options.

There have been threads where some have admitted they like dogs better than people. Their choice.

I raised four kids and as much as I love dogs they will never be equal to, or better than my children. My kids safety was the most important thing to me.


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## Saphire

Selzer also mentioned the fact that you don't have to have your own children for your dog to come in contact with children.

Last week I met with a board member from here for coffee. We ventured into a Big Lots store and I had Gus with me for socializing and exposure. There were two little girls..hmmm 6-7 yrs old if I had to guess...running around the store screaming and playing like young kids do. Gus was watchig them as was I. I was watching Gus watch them and trying hard to keep an eye on where they were etc. I had one of them in view when I felt Gus jump. I turned to see the little girl giving Gus a bear hug from behind, arms wrapped around Gus' waist quite enjoying herself. Gus was calm and looking at me puzzled. I had to peel this little girl off him. I was annoyed..not with the child but with the dad who eventually came along. I told him he should teach his children how to approach dogs and to ask permission. He was offended and said "he is obviously trained so what is the issue". This whole event took only a couple minutes and happened so quickly. Gus is a solid dog who has had no interaction with young children, I was being vigilent but it can happen and so quickly. With the dog in question, this same event would be deadly. HUGE responsibility and a fail has already resulted in a serious bite taking place.

If you choose to manage this dog the stakes are massive. This dog needs to be crated when anyone other than you and your wife are in the house. If this dog leaves the house for any reason she must be muzzled. There must be NO chances taken ever again. She must never be outside in your yard unsupervised even if fully fenced. The list goes on and on.....EVERY precaution must be taken to keep the public AND your family safe.


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## Saphire

selzer said:


> I mean, if Cousin Louisa comes over and bends down and into your dog's face, is it still a trip to the needle?


If you have a dog like the OP it is your responsibility to make sure nobody can do this to your dog. Management is a must, there should be no excuses.


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## shepherdmom

Jack's Dad said:


> Just to be clear I did not specifically recommend euthanasia.
> 
> My point was that some on here automatically assume people are idiots and any incident with a dog is their fault. I can't say what their decision should be but there are not a lot of options.
> 
> There have been threads where some have admitted they like dogs better than people. Their choice.
> 
> I raised four kids and as much as I love dogs they will never be equal to, or better than my children. My kids safety was the most important thing to me.


haha I'm one that said I like dogs better than most people. Most people don't include my children. They always came first. 

I had a non GSD with FA. She had to always be managed with outsiders. But she was fine with pack. Had she ever even hinted that she would go for one of the kids she would have been PTS


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## trcy

When I was a child I was told what could and could not be done with a dog and I was monitored. I don't see this as being the dogs fault. It's the owners fault and the dog now has to pay the price. Some people should not have animals.


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## Jack's Dad

Of course children always do what their parents tell them!


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## trcy

Jack's Dad said:


> Of course children always do what their parents tell them!


If they don't they learn a hard lesson. Still not the dogs fault.


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## selzer

Jack's Dad said:


> Of course children always do what their parents tell them!


And this is why we need to know how old the daughter is. A five year old can be told not to get in the dog's face, and she can know not to get in the dog's face, but she may not understand the need of not getting in the dog's face, nor control her actions 100% of the time. A 19 year old can understand the need and control themselves. Little kids do not consider the long-term consequences of action, and older people ought to be able to. 

I am also interested in knowing how the daughter is. Depending on the age of the daughter it can be terribly difficult for her if the dog is euthanized because of the incident.


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## Saphire

selzer said:


> And this is why we need to know how old the daughter is. A five year old can be told not to get in the dog's face, and she can know not to get in the dog's face, but she may not understand the need of not getting in the dog's face, nor control her actions 100% of the time. A 19 year old can understand the need and control themselves. Little kids do not consider the long-term consequences of action, and older people ought to be able to.
> 
> I am also interested in knowing how the daughter is. Depending on the age of the daughter it can be terribly difficult for her if the dog is euthanized because of the incident.


The age is not important in my opinion. This was a failure by the OP.....period. Should they decide to pts....it is so very important they tell the daughter it is their failure..not hers.


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## sparra

trcy said:


> If they don't they learn a hard lesson. Still not the dogs fault.


So she put her face near the dogs face......do you think that really justifies a bite causing the damage that it did?
This scenario would play out in possibly millions of homes around the world on a daily basis .....kid leans over to tell fido he /she loves it without being bitten in the face.......personally I would go with one of those millions of dogs that choose not to bite a child in the face.....but that's just me.
Either way if this is a younger child the dog is not suited to the household.


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## sehrgutcsg

Very sad indeed. My words to every child my dog comes in contact with is told to hold out their hand and keep their face as far as possible. Again, maybe this was a slip up, but the dog was violated, reacted and the ending is terrible for the child and the animal. Some people just don't get it and it hurts, period every time. My pup's name is Bella, every child and adult will be instructed to not nose the dog and never left alone with her..SORRY !! (....


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## Jack's Dad

trcy said:


> If they don't they learn a hard lesson. Still not the dogs fault.


So basically dogs are completely off the hook. If a human, (child or adult, family or not) makes a mistake or does something out of ignorance they deserve to get bit.

Dogs must fit into the family just like everyone else. They don't get a pass just because they are an animal. You (general you) can walk around monitoring your pets and children if that's how you choose to live life but I'm not doing that. As an adult and a dad I spent much of my adult life working 40 to 60 or more hrs. a week, plus taking care of a house and raising kids.
The whole house has to function smoothly. That includes my dogs.

I've had dogs for over fifty years, a number of them GSDs. My kids not only never got a bite from any dog we had but I felt safer that the dogs were with my kids. 

I also never re-homed a dog (actually one to a friend because of rental problems) but never for behavior. 

Life is too short to have to constantly worry about what your dog may do.

There are also liability issues.


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## trcy

sparra said:


> So she put her face near the dogs face......do you think that really justifies a bite causing the damage that it did?
> This scenario would play out in possibly millions of homes around the world on a daily basis .....kid leans over to tell fido he /she loves it without being bitten in the face.......personally I would go with one of those millions of dogs that choose not to bite a child in the face.....but that's just me.


Some dogs do not like being face to face with children or adults. I have a grandson who when standing is face to face with my GSD right now. I work very hard desensitizing all my dogs. I put my face close to theirs. I will come in at eye level. Kiss them between the eyes, play with their feet and tails. I do this because when I was younger my neighbors Doberman bit a kid in the face when he came eye level with the dog. That dog was not put down. The parents realized it was their kids fault. This was a different time, when people actually took responsibility for their actions. The doberman was not trained well. He reacted to what he thought was a threat. 

Do I want kids to be bit? Of course not. As a dog owner it's my responsibility to help my dog not react that way. It's also my responsibility to make sure my grandson does not do anything that is over my dogs limits. They are monitored closely when they are together. We have not had any issues.


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## selzer

If it is a younger child, I think you have to bite the bullet and put the dog down. A younger child should not have to live in a house with a dog that will do that to them. Sorry. 

If this is an older child or an adult, then you need to make a decision. You need to decide whether you can commit to providing the management the dog needs. And ensure that nothing of the kind happens again. 

5-7 years is a long time. 

I really don't understand this bite at all. A scaredy-dog that isn't attached to a tether should have gone the other way. A dog that is punishing an breech of etiquette should not have punctured and cut up in the bite. I do think it makes sense to understand the why of the bite, if we are planning on trying to manage the dog rather than put it down.


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## trcy

Jack's Dad said:


> So basically dogs are completely off the hook. If a human, (child or adult, family or not) makes a mistake or does something out of ignorance they deserve to get bit.
> 
> Dogs must fit into the family just like everyone else. They don't get a pass just because they are an animal. You (general you) can walk around monitoring your pets and children if that's how you choose to live life but I'm not doing that. As an adult and a dad I spent much of my adult life working 40 to 60 or more hrs. a week, plus taking care of a house and raising kids.
> The whole house has to function smoothly. That includes my dogs.
> 
> I've had dogs for over fifty years, a number of them GSDs. My kids not only never got a bite from any dog we had but I felt safer that the dogs were with my kids.
> 
> I also never re-homed a dog (actually one to a friend because of rental problems) but never for behavior.
> 
> Life is too short to have to constantly worry about what your dog may do.
> 
> There are also liability issues.


It's called training. I don't see where the OP mentioned any type of training the dog has had. I don't know the past history the child and dog have had together. I don't think well trained dogs are just going to bite somebody unless they have been tormented in the past by someone. Children need to be taught how to act around dogs. Dogs need to be trained. 

I grew up around dogs too. I never got bit. I was around the doberman I mentioned above. He never bit me, but I never tormented him or put my face to his level. I did not witness it, but the owner of the doberman said the kid would poke sticks at his dog through the fence. Maybe the dog had enough...IDK, that kid was a handful. That is the only person the doberman ever bit. 

I just don't think out of the blue a family pet of 5 years just decided to bite a kid...JMO


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## Sunflowers

I don't think you can train the canine out of the dog. Meaning, I think that even the well-trained dog can, and might, bite. 
No amount of training in the world will make the dog be anything else than what he actually is.


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## sparra

trcy said:


> Some dogs do not like being face to face with children or adults. I have a grandson who when standing is face to face with my GSD right now. I work very hard desensitizing all my dogs. I put my face close to theirs. I will come in at eye level. Kiss them between the eyes, play with their feet and tails


I haven't done this with any of my dogs but they still don't bite my children in the face if they come too close.....my dogs are treated with respect 99% of the time ......the other 1% I expect tolerance of kids being kids.....if their is zero tolerance on the dogs part for the most minor of indiscretions then the dog is not suited to a family with kids.

I agree it does seem strange for the dog to do this after 5 years of no incidents.


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## boomer11

i'd wager theres more to the story. dog has known daughter for 5 years and no incidents and then suddenly out of absolutely no where gives her a hard bite??


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## Loneforce

>>>We have had our female german shepherd for 5 years, named bella. She is well trained in the usual commands, and even goes to the bathroom where we want in her kennel. She has always been an indoor dog, except for exercise or if we're away for hours we leave her in our fenced in yard. In terms of her personality she often does not want to be touched or petted except by my wife. My wife spent most of the time with her the first couple years we had her, and bella is her baby. Bella in general does not want to have much to do with me or my daughter, she just prefers to not be bothered. <<<< (quote)

This should of been the first clue for possible disaster, and should of been discussed and handled years ago.


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## carmspack

from page one 

"In terms of her personality she often does not want to be touched or petted except by my wife. My wife spent most of the time with her the first couple years we had her, and bella is her baby. Bella in general does not want to have much to do with me or my daughter, she just prefers to not be bothered."

Some indiscretion by the man , the OP may have met with a similar bite . Seems like the OP was wary of the dog , who favoured his wife only. Who knows why the problem exists .


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## carmspack

lol - pretty well the same ideas from loneforce.

as I said who knows why the problem exists . There may be some family dysfunction , the dog is used to act out hostility . The dog may have exhibited behaviour which was manipulated and exploited to the detriment of the dog -- rather than swiftly corrected.

we had a forum member who laughed about sicking the dog on the wife as a joke , for fun , the dog who had issues . 

I think this incident is the tip of the iceberg . Probably a lot of free and spontaneous activity in the house has been curtailed or inhibited "because of the dog" -- 

is the dog's life miserable ? does the dog enjoy a good social life or does its temperament or issues reduce contact to the house, the yard, the wife .


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## RocketDog

carmspack said:


> lol - pretty well the same ideas from loneforce.
> 
> as I said who knows why the problem exists . There may be some family dysfunction , the dog is used to act out hostility . The dog may have exhibited behaviour which was manipulated and exploited to the detriment of the dog -- rather than swiftly corrected.
> 
> *we had a forum member who laughed about sicking the dog on the wife as a joke , for fun , the dog who had issues * .
> 
> I think this incident is the tip of the iceberg . Probably a lot of free and spontaneous activity in the house has been curtailed or inhibited "because of the dog" --
> 
> is the dog's life miserable ? does the dog enjoy a good social life or does its temperament or issues reduce contact to the house, the yard, the wife .



I remember this. 


Also, about the dog exhibiting behavior that was manipulated and exploited-- I have a friend with a dog that is not the most stable and she does this exact same thing: exploiting, manipulating and making excuses for the behavior instead of managing and training what she can. The dog has bitten people several times.


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## carmspack

by manipulated and exploited I mean a dog being used as a tool to play out some personal issues --


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## Mocha

There has to be more to this. Possibly the dog did not know the child that long.


My female shepherd has been raised with kids of all ages since eight weeks old and I have seen the most random children (invited over for birthday parties) sit behind her and prop their feet up on her. I've seen small Infants play with her ears and kiss her and she gently kisses them back and if she's ever annoyed or irritated she just gets up and moves to the other side of the room. Never bites, never growls , never snarls. 


Maybe like mentioned before there is something medically wrong going on they don't know about. 

Really wish the OP would update. We need more info ! 


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## meek

I don't like anyone sticking their face close to my dogs face. I hope your child is going to be ok. I'm sorry to hear this. Did u ever think the dog got frighten? Take your dog to a rescue. Let her live the rest of her life out. I hope your make the right decision. 


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## Magwart

meek said:


> Take your dog to a rescue. Let her live the rest of her life out.


As others have already pointed out, once a dog has a bite history, it will be almost universally rejected by rescues -- they can't take that liability on, for good reason. I don't know of _any _GSRs that will accept an owner-surrendered dog with a known bite history--especially this kind of bite. 

Moreover, the purpose of rescue is not for owners to conveniently pass on the problems they themselves have created. There are many, many purebred dogs in kill-shelters who have no bite history, who have done well on a shelter temperament test, who are likely to be good family dogs--all waiting for foster spots in rescue. Those dogs don't have this history and are more adoptable. They are, quite frankly, a better use of scarce rescue resources.

Rescues don't have unlimited foster spots or money. Hard decisions have to be made on a daily basis among _good _dogs, for lack of foster space. Resolving this kind of issue (whether through management, behavior mod, euth or private rehoming) should be the owner's burden, not the rescues'. I hope the owner seeks some professional assistance to help with the decision -- a good behaviorist would be invaluable, even if the consultation had to be done remotely with lots of video of the dog, particularly in regards to consulting on the need for any "final" decisions.


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## carmspack

Mocha this is good that your dog indulges this kind of treatment 

"My female shepherd has been raised with kids of all ages since eight weeks old and I have seen the most random children (invited over for birthday parties) sit behind her and prop their feet up on her. I've seen small Infants play with her ears and kiss her and she gently kisses them back and if she's ever annoyed or irritated she just gets up and moves to the other side of the room. Never bites, never growls , never snarls"

BUT the best bite prevention is to have those kids taught this is not how to act with a dog , especially a dog that is not their own . They may attempt to hug or kiss the next dog with disasterous consequences.

socializing is a two way street


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## donkeyturtle

Wow - I did not expect this kind of response. I was waiting to get a email when a reply was made on the forum, and never did so I figured no one had responded yet. I really appreciate and am grateful for all the feedback, good and bad, and still have much more to read but I thought I would clarify a few things based on what I've already read. 

Our GS if 5 years old and we've had her since she was a puppy. Our daughter is 13 years old and has always lived with us. 

When I say I don't trust her now, it is because she bit my daughter. Our GS has had a very loving home and a great life. She prefers to be inside when we are inside, and has plenty of room outside when we are not. She has boundaries in the home, like she cannot go in the kitchen or the bathroom. She gets exercise, but generally just likes to follow my wife around. She is also well trained, and if we had a failure in that regard, it would be that she wasn't socialized enough. She is just not the kind of dog that like to be petted too much, wrestled with, hugged, things like that. She is also skittish, always cowering from me - she just seems to fear men in general.

She has always been a loved part of our family, however, it has been a constant source of frustration for our daughter and I that we can't give her much affection, cannot wrestle with her, etc and she usually moans at us if we touch her.... I have spoken to my wife in the past about finding a new home for our GS because of the stress it causes my daughter and I. Our daughter definitely knew better then to be "bothering" our GS, or to be in it's face, and we constantly are reminding her of this. In the end, I cannot control her 24/7 any more then I can the dog, unfortunately. Now that the GS has bitten her, I feel she will be an even bigger source of stress in the house.

I have found out that we have to wait 10 days to even put her down, due to state law. Which would mean March 3rd is the earliest. I will be looking to see if there are any options of a new home in the meantime, but it seems doubtful.... 

---hope this helps answer some questions. I will continue reading through the comments and post again as needed.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Germans shepherds do have the reputation of being a 'one person' type dog. I haven't found that to always be true but it is in your case. You shouldn't find it frustrating, it happens and happened with our family dogs in the past. Sometimes they bond to one person more then others. That's just the way it is and your and your daughters frustration probably made it worse, the dog could sense that.

I guess growing up on a farm in the 60s and 70s and having been around many animals I'll tell you what my Dad would have told me if I went into the pen with a mean old cow, angry rooster or a dog that had 'moaned' and warned me many times to give it space....then got hurt at age 13.... This is exactly what my father did and would have told me "Did you learn something?" 

Yes you have a difficult dog and not sticking your face in a dogs face is rule number one for adults and kids. 

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be harsh, but you set this dog up to fail.


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## donkeyturtle

I've read up through page 4 of these comments so far, and wanted to add a few more comments.

There are a lot of really good and thoughtful posts, a few that I wanted to mention so far.

Taggart mentioned that the dogs are generally better with the kids outside, I agree. ---- However, our GS spends much time in the house and wants to be.

Jack's Dad - mentions not wanting to spend life tiptoeing around the dog, it should be enhancing the family life, not a source of stress. ---- I totally agree with this, and that is why I've brought up trying to find her a new home in the past, but my wife would hear none of it until now. We don't want to need to worry about having visitors/friends/etc... over to visit and put a muzzle on her or something like that. There is stress without visitors, and it is very much increased with visitors.

Selzer --- many good comments and is reading correctly that this is a fear reactive, nervous fear biting dog with know problems and triggers. The only reason we haven't had issues in the past is because of constant vigilance and limiting contact with her. However, back to Jack's Dad, this is not how life should be with a dog.


I have to reiterate that this is an extremely difficult decision that we don't take lightly, as she has been considered a daughter since we got her as a puppy. However, her nervous, fearful nature was a stress to our 13 year old daughter and I before this happened, and at this point I feel responsible that I didn't take action earlier to find a new home or euthanize. It still does not seem likely we will find a new home.

As far as my daughter's injuries - she is healing extremely well, fand if we're lucky, may only have slight scarring if any, praise God. I also don't believe she has any emotional problems from this.


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## Blanketback

OP, by the title of this thread (which I hate, BTW) it sounds like you're resigned to destroying this dog, not rehoming her. I don't know the extent of your daughter's injuries but I know at her age it must be hard for her, regardless. I hope she heals well. 

It's unfair to expect a dog to behave in a way that's against its nature. If this dog wanted her space, and didn't like smothering, why couldn't you find other things about her to love, and other ways to show it? It's so depressing to hear of these wonderful dogs being PTS, and have to bear all the responsibility when things go wrong.

I ruined a friendship because someone's daughter (8 yo) was at my home and was grabbing my dog's head and staring in his eyes. I told her to stop, because dogs don't like that. Note: didn't _ask_, told. Her father said it was ok! He said he liked my dog, he was a good dog, and he wouldn't do anything! I told him I didn't want his daughter to learn the hard way that I was right, and I crated my dog, and they were never welcome in my home again. So this antagonizing the dog until it bites someone - I could also have been that owner, if I didn't intervene and make sure it never got to that point.


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## LoveEcho

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Germans shepherds do have the reputation of being a 'one person' type dog. I haven't found that to always be true but it is in your case. You shouldn't find it frustrating, it happens and happened with our family dogs in the past. Sometimes they bond to one person more then others. That's just the way it is and your and your daughters frustration probably made it worse, the dog could sense that.
> 
> I guess growing up on a farm in the 60s and 70s and having been around many animals I'll tell you what my Dad would have told me if I went into the pen with a mean old cow, angry rooster or a dog that had 'moaned' and warned me many times to give it space....then got hurt at age 13.... This is exactly what my father did and would have told me "Did you learn something?"
> 
> Yes you have a difficult dog and not sticking your face in a dogs face is rule number one for adults and kids.
> 
> *I'm sorry, I don't mean to be harsh, but you set this dog up to fail*.



Now that I'm hearing that the daughter is 13 (and not a small child who "doesn't know any better")... I agree with this. YOU knew better. Your daughter is certainly old enough to know better.

My dog is as tolerant as they come and I would NEVER allow someone to put their face close to his. With small children, accidents happen. Your daughter is a teenager. 

It's all well and good to say dogs should tolerate kids being kids. But to a dog, your daughter is pretty much an adult. People talk about the ideal of what a dog "should" tolerate, but that doesn't apply to every situation (some dogs just aren't tolerant... does that mean they should be culled?). You've known what this dog was for five years. Taking a standoffish dog, who is actually quite predictable, and putting her in a situation where her space is violated and being shocked when she reacts is failing her.

Try very hard to find a home for the dog. She sounds like she would be successful in a home experienced with the breed (I don't mean that you're not, but you are looking for a family-loving pet) and willing to put in some time and work. She doesn't sound like an unpredictable, off-the-wall biter. It sounds more like the dog doesn't mesh with your lifestyle than that the dog is dangerous- I totally get the stress that can bring, but that doesn't mean the dog should die.


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## donkeyturtle

After finishing up the comments, a few more mentions. 

I do not want to put our GS to sleep, however, from what I've found so far it seems that is my only choice. As others have mentioned, there are plenty of dogs with no bite history that need a home, and I wouldn't even feel right giving her to someone else. Especially considering the loving, structured, and consistent home she has been in since a puppy. I only have 1 daughter, and the house is not loose by any means - discipline, love, respect, and most importantly living for the Lord are the foundation of our house. We are not one of "those people" who just let dogs do what they want and make no excuses. Our GS was clear on her place in the pack. I'm not saying there is not more we could have done --- my daughter and I have tried our best to make it work while taking into account her personality. Taking away her nervous, fearful, and stand offish nature are way beyond my skill level though. Yes, my daughter is 13 years old and did know better, but her brain is still developing and she makes bad decisions and mistakes. That is one of the sources of stress in the house that I have to constantly get on her so she will tiptoe around our GS. She just wants a dog she can love on, and I can't blame her because I do too. Our GS was also a source of safety for her if she was in the home alone. In any case, it is ultimately my fault for keeping our GS in the house considering I am just unable to improve the environment. No matter how much effort I put in to raising our GS and my daughter, I cannot control what decisions they ultimately make....


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## LoveEcho

donkeyturtle said:


> After finishing up the comments, a few more mentions.
> 
> I do not want to put our GS to sleep, however, from what I've found so far it seems that is my only choice. As others have mentioned, there are plenty of dogs with no bite history that need a home, and I wouldn't even feel right giving her to someone else. Especially considering the loving, structured, and consistent home she has been in since a puppy. I only have 1 daughter, and the house is not loose by any means - discipline, love, respect, and most importantly living for the Lord are the foundation of our house. We are not one of "those people" who just let dogs do what they want and make no excuses. Our GS was clear on her place in the pack. I'm not saying there is not more we could have done --- my daughter and I have tried our best to make it work while taking into account her personality. Taking away her nervous, fearful, and stand offish nature are way beyond my skill level though. Yes, my daughter is 13 years old and did know better, but her brain is still developing and she makes bad decisions and mistakes. That is one of the sources of stress in the house that I have to constantly get on her so she will tiptoe around our GS. She just wants a dog she can love on, and I can't blame her because I do too. However, it is ultimately my fault for keeping our GS in the house considering I am just unable to improve the environment.



I totally understand the stress of the situation. Having a dog that requires skill above what you're capable or willing to deal with is such an overwhelming feeling. It really does sound like you're between a rock and a hard place  

Where are you located? Try getting in touch with any local Schutzhund clubs, etc- network the crap out of her.


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## blackshep

It's a tough situation for sure. I would also encourage you to work with a behaviourist and obviously management is key, but then again, there are worse things than being dead.

I agree with you that rehoming a biter is irresponsible and the main thing is that the dog isn't set up to be abused, neglected or bounced around from home to home, where she is going to be a risk to herself and the people in her life.

I hope you can find a way to work on training and management, but if those things are not working, than euthing is sometimes the kindest thing.

I'm very sorry you're facing this, it would break my heart completely.


----------



## Blanketback

Her "stand offish" nature isn't something that can be changed, with any amount of skill. This is who she is. The "nervous" and "fearful" could have been conditioned in, if she was always being harassed and being asked to be something she never was meant to be. How does your wife feel about this?


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## donkeyturtle

I will divulge a little more on what happened before the bite. My daughter was on the floor doing her homework with the books spread house, directly across from Bella who was laying beside the couch. Bella had one side to the couch, her rear to the wall, and my daughter was in front of her. My daughter leaned forward and said "I love you bella I love you!!", which she often does though I tell her not to, and bella bit her and got up and walked away, leaving my daughter sitting there in shock and bleeding. While my daughter knows Bella, Bella also knows my daughter and knows she would never hurt her. She should not have bit my daughter.

My wife is devastated by this, but is in agreement that we will likely have to euthanize her..... I so much want to tell her not to worry about it, that we can keep Bella. All I see is the good in Bella now, it's much harder to remember the pre-bite issues in my mind now that we pretty much know what has to be done. I feel absolutely terrible about it. In my post title, I meant to make "time to put her down" a question.... did not mean to offend with this. We live in a small town in northern Indiana.


----------



## bga

middleofnowhere said:


> According to I think it was Bill Campbell, this is one of the main causes of dog bites -- people, especially kids, putting their faces in dogs faces.
> 
> I don't know what to tell you. Your daughter knew she shouldn't do this. She will forever remember why especially when her action led to the behavior that causes the dogs death. Really sad situation all around. I'm sorry. That's all I got.


What an absurd position. Blaming an innocent child for showing affection to her family pet... Stable GSDs (or dogs of any kind) don't do this. At the very least, this dog should never again be in a home with children. It would take some major management no matter where it went...


----------



## LoveEcho

donkeyturtle said:


> I will divulge a little more on what happened before the bite. My daughter was on the floor doing her homework with the books spread house, directly across from Bella who was laying beside the couch. Bella had one side to the couch, her rear to the wall, and my daughter was in front of her. My daughter leaned forward and said "I love you bella I love you!!", which she often does though I tell her not to, and bella bit her and got up and walked away, leaving my daughter sitting there in shock and bleeding. While my daughter knows Bella, B*ella also knows my daughter and knows she would never hurt her. * She should not have bit my daughter.
> 
> My wife is devastated by this, but is in agreement that we will likely have to euthanize her..... I so much want to tell her not to worry about it, that we can keep Bella. All I see is the good in Bella now, it's much harder to remember the pre-bite issues in my mind now that we pretty much know what has to be done. I feel absolutely terrible about it. In my post title, I meant to make "time to put her down" a question.... did not mean to offend with this. We live in a small town in northern Indiana.


You're anthropomorphising here (bolded part). That's not necessarily how dogs work. 

Nobody is blaming you for admitting you're in over your head with your dog, or trivializing how hard of a situation that is. People just tend to get frustrated when it was a situation that could have been avoided, and the dog will pay the price. 

It's so hard to say "euthenize her" and that it's irresponsible to pass a biter off... usually that's what I would say with a dog who is clearly out of control, clearly unpredictable, and who wouldn't succeed without a ton of management. To me, this dog doesn't sound like that.


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## donkeyturtle

It actually gives me comfort to see these comments that stable GSD's (or other dogs) should be okay with showing affection -- petting, maybe even hugging and things like that. My daughter would still like to have a dog like this, and has always expressed her want for that before the bite, and after. I always told her to just try and love Bella the best she can... From my perspective, our GS never returned near the love that my wife showered on her either. My wife does not want to talk about getting another dog at this point, but maybe sometime.


----------



## LoveEcho

donkeyturtle said:


> It actually gives me comfort to see these comments that stable GSD's (or other dogs) should be okay with showing affection -- petting, maybe even hugging and things like that. My daughter would still like to have a dog like this, and has always expressed her want for that before the bite, and after. I always told her to just try and love Bella the best she can... From my perspective, our GS never returned near the love that my wife showered on her either. My wife does not want to talk about getting another dog at this point, but maybe sometime.


Therein lies the rub, and what makes this such a heartbreaking scenario for you  The "what a dog should be" vs "the dog you have."


----------



## Blanketback

If it was a question, then I guess you're here to ask all of us GSD enthusiasts what we would do? That's a tough one, because many of us grew up in an era when dogs did bite us, and this was something we learned not to provoke. 

Some members are breeders, and they've said that you're going to need to manage her. Some members didn't have GSDs with their small children, intentionally, because they didn't think this was the best choice. 

What would I do? I wouldn't PTS my dog. But I'm not in your shoes. You have to wrestle with this decision.


----------



## donkeyturtle

LoveEcho said:


> You're anthropomorphising here (bolded part). That's not necessarily how dogs work.
> 
> Nobody is blaming you for admitting you're in over your head with your dog, or trivializing how hard of a situation that is. People just tend to get frustrated when it was a situation that could have been avoided, and the dog will pay the price.
> 
> It's so hard to say "euthenize her" and that it's irresponsible to pass a biter off... usually that's what I would say with a dog who is clearly out of control, clearly unpredictable, and who wouldn't succeed without a ton of management. To me, this dog doesn't sound like that.


I wouldn't say our GS is out of control by any means, but I do feel she is beyond our skill level to manage as a family. Keeping her would mean continuing to tip toe around her to cater to her fearful, nervous, and anxious issues. Only it would be even worse because if she thought it was okay to bite my daughter, now I would have to muzzle her in the presence of anyone else, or put her in a cage or something. That is not how I want us to live -- the dog should be a source of love and companionship, not stress. I'm not saying I have no fault in this, maybe there is something more I could have done, especially in socializing, or maybe she just has mental problems.... It's definitely a sad and hard decision either way....


----------



## LoveEcho

donkeyturtle said:


> I wouldn't say our GS is out of control by any means, but I do feel she is beyond our skill level to manage as a family. Keeping her would mean continuing to tip toe around her to cater to her fearful, nervous, and anxious issues. Only it would be even worse because if she thought it was okay to bite my daughter, now I would have to muzzle her in the presence of anyone else, or put her in a cage or something. That is not how I want us to live -- the dog should be a source of love and companionship, not stress.


That's definitely understandable. That level of management is a lot for a pet-oriented family. 



Blanketback said:


> If it was a question, then I guess you're here to ask all of us GSD enthusiasts what we would do? That's a tough one, because many of us grew up in an era when dogs did bite us, and this was something we learned not to provoke.
> 
> Some members are breeders, and they've said that your going to need to manage her. Some members didn't have GSDs with their small children, intentionally, because they didn't think this was the best choice.
> 
> What would I do? I wouldn't PTS my dog. But I'm not in your shoes. You have to wrestle with this decision.


I think this is what I was getting at. I wouldn't PTS either, because I'm equipped to deal with a dog like that and have the skills necessary to make it so it wouldn't be so stressful. On the flip side, I also have resources to find the dog a more appropriate home.


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## shepherdmom

This child has lived with the dog her whole life. This is not a new kid, or a new thing. The dog should not have bitten. It is not the kids fault it IS the dogs fault! 

Even my FA mutt let the kids crawl all over her. It was strangers she feared not her pack. 

I grew up with dogs, raised kids with dogs, and never once had a dog bite for getting a face near the dog. There is something wrong with the dog. IMO it should be put down.


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## LoveEcho

shepherdmom said:


> This child has lived with the dog her whole life. This is not a new kid, or a new thing. The dog should not have bitten. It is not the kids fault it IS the dogs fault!
> 
> Even my FA mutt let the kids crawl all over her. It was strangers she feared not her pack.
> 
> I grew up with dogs, raised kids with dogs, and never once had a dog bite for getting a face near the dog. There is something wrong with the dog. IMO it should be put down.


Teenagers should know not to stick their faces in the dog's, especially if the dog is one that doesn't like to be touched/hung on/etc. It's everybody's fault and nobody's fault. 

It's hard to say there's something wrong with the dog when the dog would be fine and thrive in a different home with actually fairly minimal management (if you know what you're dealing with). That goes back to "the ideal dog" and "the dog you have." There was absolutely nothing unpredictable about what the dog did- just the opposite, actually. I venture into destroying the dog when the behavior is unpredictable or an extraordinary level of management would be required.


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## crackem

I think there is something wrong with the dog, I don't have much tolerance for dogs biting kids for ANY reason. I've been around enough dogs that would eat an adult that deserved it, but wouldn't even think of nipping a child when it jumped on it's stomach. I think people need to demand more out of their dogs.

That said, YOU KNEW your dog wasn't safe in those situations. you knew it didn't like them and it was known for 5 years. SO, when you decide to keep a dog like that you must do what is necessary to keep everyone safe. Though a dog like this might not be perfect, it can live a complete, full, and happy life and so can the owners. But you have to manage situations like this.

Whatever you decide, it is your decision to make. I don't tend to judge too harshly because it's not my situation. Me? from the brief description I gathered at the beginning, I think this dog could do very well and make someone very happy in a house with no kids as a companion animal with someone willing to make sure they manage iffy situations. Lots of dogs and owners are completely happy in this situation. I'd try and rehome to a place like that with the help of a rescue. I'm of the opinion it's my dog, it's my responsibility to do the best I can for it.

If I decide I think the dog is too dangerous, I'm not giving it up to anyone, I'm putting it down. It's nobody else's decision to make, so I don't give them that opportunity.

In the meantime, you have to keep your family safe, and I think with some simple management strategies, it can be done. You might just find the dog can fit in just fine with some small changes on your part.

But whatever you decide, as long as you put honest thought and time into it, who cares what everyone else thinks?


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## GatorBytes

Blanketback said:


> If it was a question, then I guess you're here to ask all of us GSD enthusiasts what we would do? That's a tough one, because many of us grew up in an era when dogs did bite us, and this was something we learned not to provoke.


 
A dog is neither good nor bad.
It's just being a dog.


Well at least we have the luxury of discarding our pets when they don't fit the mould. If a dog after 5 yrs. of no bite history suddenly bites - Euth.

Just get another dog. No biggy. 

OP - Has your dog had any symptoms of any illness at all, any recent trips to vet for check-up, new heartworm or flea prevention....recent vaccines

Does your daughter feed the dog?

Define anxiety - the dog seems aloof, but you talk about nervous dog.


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## carmspack

a less than temperamentally robust dog by birth .
issues that the dog has naturally can be compounded , reinforced by very subtle rewards for that behaviour . 

" In terms of her personality she often does not want to be touched or petted except by my wife. My wife spent most of the time with her the first couple years we had her, and bella is her baby. Bella in general does not want to have much to do with me or my daughter, she just prefers to not be bothered. "

maybe something in the dynamics in the relationship the dog had with the wife created a bias where the dog is rewarded , by being shielded , indulged , handled with kid gloves by one member , and more matter of fact by other family members. Of course the dog would prefer the one who babies her , setting up a us - against them . When the dog is stressed she runs to mommy and is rewarded.

All behaviour is the result of complex interplay between genes and environment .


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## stmcfred

I'm sorry your daughter got hurt. I hope she heals quickly.

I'm curious though, did you get the GS from a breeder? Have you contacted them to see if they would be able to help? Either by taking the dog back and working with her or finding a better suitable home?


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## shepherdmom

LoveEcho said:


> Teenagers should know not to stick their faces in the dog's, especially if the dog is one that doesn't like to be touched/hung on/etc. It's everybody's fault and nobody's fault.
> 
> It's hard to say there's something wrong with the dog when the dog would be fine and thrive in a different home with actually fairly minimal management (if you know what you're dealing with). That goes back to "the ideal dog" and "the dog you have." There was absolutely nothing unpredictable about what the dog did- just the opposite, actually. I venture into destroying the dog when the behavior is unpredictable or an extraordinary level of management would be required.


and this is why there are so many dogs with bad behavior out there. When I was growing up this dog would have been destroyed without hesitation or agonizing over it.


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## carmspack

"B*ella also knows my daughter and knows she would never hurt **her. "*


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## LoveEcho

shepherdmom said:


> and this is why there are so many dogs with bad behavior out there. When I was growing up this dog would have been destroyed without hesitation or agonizing over it.


On the flip side, when I was growing up I would have been smacked upside the head for sticking my face in the dog's, and if the dog corrected me I would have been asked what I learned. 

All parties were set up to fail here. As carmspack said, the behavior has not been managed and subsequently has been subtly rewarded, setting the family up for failure. Conversely, a dog who knowingly does not like having her space invaded will now die because of a lack of management on the part of the daughter. All in all, the family is/has been in over their head in dealing with a dog like this, which is sad and stressful for all involved. The dog could easily thrive in a different home, and may never have been a problem to begin with in an appropriate home, so what does that mean moving forward? It all comes down to what the OP wants to do- if they want to put in the effort to find a suitable home, etc.


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## Lilie

shepherdmom said:


> and this is why there are so many dogs with bad behavior out there. When I was growing up this dog would have been destroyed without hesitation or agonizing over it.


No, this isn't why there are so many dogs with bad behavior out there. Sadly, it's because there are so many people out there breeding crap dogs and selling them to folks who think they are going to get a dog like they had back in the day. Owners who do the best they can, but were already in way over their heads the day they brought the puppy home.


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## Saphire

Without seeing and observing this dog in her current environment you cannot possibly say she can easily thrive in a new environment.

The current owners have missed much with this dog and lack the knowledge to identify her behaviour and causes thereof. There could be a ton of posturing going on that has been missed possibly making this dog more dangerous then even they know.

If not pts.....a reputable trainer needs to be brought in to assess before any consideration is given to rehoming. 

For me any future bite whether in my home or not would still be my fault. My mother rehomed our Afghan when I was young because he bit my friend. Two years later he bit a baby sleeping. My mother was devastated.


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## Saphire

My heart goes out to this young girl. A young girl that loves this dog unconditionally. Loves this dog even though she cannot interact with it. Leans forward to say "I love you Bella". This dog inflicts a serious bite and now this young girl sees her parents are devastated...she is no doubt devastated. She did NOT deserve this and I hope her parents are making sure she knows this is not her fault. The dog would be the least of my worries right now.


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## Blanketback

OP, I'm wondering: is your wife the one who always feeds you dog, and is your dog allowed on your furniture? Because if the answer is "yes" to both, then simply changing that will make a world of difference in the dynamics. I can attest to that.


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## LoveEcho

Saphire said:


> Without seeing and observing this dog in her current environment you cannot possibly say she can easily thrive in a new environment.
> 
> The current owners have missed much with this dog and lack the knowledge to identify her behaviour and causes thereof. There could be a ton of posturing going on that has been missed possibly making this dog more dangerous then even they know.
> 
> If not pts.....a reputable trainer needs to be brought in to assess before any consideration is given to rehoming.
> 
> For me any future bite whether in my home or not would still be my fault. My mother rehomed our Afghan when I was young because he bit my friend. Two years later he bit a baby sleeping. My mother was devastated.


Yeah, I guess that's true. It is hard to say based on the OP's description. The dog should definitely be assessed at the very least.



Saphire said:


> My heart goes out to this young girl. A young girl that loves this dog unconditionally. Loves this dog even though she cannot interact with it. Leans forward to say "I love you Bella". This dog inflicts a serious bite and now this young girl sees her parents are devastated...she is no doubt devastated. She did NOT deserve this and I hope her parents are making sure she knows this is not her fault. The dog would be the least of my worries right now.


I'm so glad she is talking about how she would still like to have a dog. It must be so hard for her to live in the house with the current dog


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## RocketDog

carmspack said:


> a less than temperamentally robust dog by birth .
> issues that the dog has naturally can be compounded , reinforced by very subtle rewards for that behaviour .
> 
> " In terms of her personality she often does not want to be touched or petted except by my wife. My wife spent most of the time with her the first couple years we had her, and bella is her baby. Bella in general does not want to have much to do with me or my daughter, she just prefers to not be bothered. "
> 
> *maybe something in the dynamics in the relationship the dog had with the wife created a bias where the dog is rewarded , by being shielded , indulged , handled with kid gloves by one member , and more matter of fact by other family members. Of course the dog would prefer the one who babies her , setting up a us - against them . When the dog is stressed she runs to mommy and is rewarded.
> 
> All behaviour is the result of complex interplay between genes and environment *.


This is what I meant earlier in regards to my friend's dog. The dog is nervy to begin with, and she is not equipped nor knowledgeable enough to handle this dog. People won't come over to her house anymore and the dog is only happy at home with 'mom'. 

I agree that the dog doesn't sound stable to me at all. This is a very difficult decision and I'm sorry that you have to bear the burden. If you are able to have a trainer that you feel is knowledgeable in this area, you could have an evaluation. But I agree with others here who have said this is not the average GSD.


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## donkeyturtle

We did get our GS from a breeder, not sure if they are still breeding though. Funny now that you mention it though, my sister had gotten a female GS from the same breeder, which she put down a couple years ago due to aggression. They had a completely different family environment from us.

This dog has not bitten before, nor did we think that she would bite, especially family. It was such a horrible and helpless feeling to walk in the door and see what Bella had done to my daughter, and to be able to do nothing about it. Prior to the bite, we had managed the nervousness, anxiety, fear in our GS the best we could. We all fed her, let her out to the bathroom, brushed her, disciplined her, played with her, took her on walks, gave her treats. This wasn't a matter of us letting her get away with being a baby with the wife, and not being accountable to us. The dog was not allowed on any furniture, though my wife does like to lay on the floor with her.


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## Sunflowers

Nothing will change the fact that this dog is, and always has been, a nerve bag.
There isn't always an excuse or a solution to something. I don't like using clichés, but in this case, it really is what it is.
No family member the dog has always has been around should be bitten in the face. I don't care if it there is couch access, no couch access, training, no training. 
Not everything can be saved or improved or fixed.


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## Saphire

donkeyturtle said:


> We did get our GS from a breeder, not sure if they are still breeding though. Funny now that you mention it though, my sister had gotten a female GS from the same breeder, which she put down a couple years ago due to aggression. They had a completely different family environment from us.
> 
> This dog has not bitten before, nor did we think that she would bite, especially family. It was such a horrible and helpless feeling to walk in the door and see what Bella had done to my daughter, and to be able to do nothing about it. Prior to the bite, we had managed the nervousness, anxiety, fear in our GS the best we could. We all fed her, let her out to the bathroom, brushed her, disciplined her, played with her, took her on walks, gave her treats. This wasn't a matter of us letting her get away with being a baby with the wife, and not being accountable to us.


If this description is accurate, your belovd GSD is not wired correctly and is not stable. Nothing can undo what has been done but you can prevent it from happening to anyone ever again.


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## carmspack

B*ella also knows my daughter and knows she would never hurt **her. "* 
__________________

failed to complete my thought. there was a reply "You're anthropomorphising here (bolded part). That's not necessarily how dogs work"

and if she did ? even accidentally ? the response was over the top , too defensive from the dog.

hurt is part of life. A few wicked winters ago we had a thick sheet of glare ice making walking impossible. Still chores have to be done , dogs need to get out , be fed and watered. My pattern is that when I am out there is always or two of my dogs running free . This time I had one out with me . He lost his footing and bambied into me , flipping me off my feet, bucket flying . Our trajectory meets and I land on top of him like a foot ball tackle , and we continue to spin.
If ever there was a moment which could induce panic in the dog , that would have been it . Had I received a snap I would have forgiven it .
But I did not . The relationship was solid . The dog was solid . There was no avoidance . The dog got up , we hobbled back to the house where I got more water and we continue. 

Hurt - when I groom my long coat , Gus's sire , to rip out burdocks that he collects from the wanders in the back field , that hurts , and no bite , a little wiggling fuss , but that is all. No animosity .

Step on a toe when backing up and a dog is following too close behind , a yelp , no bite to my calf.

The vet -- bet this dog had some major problems being treated .

It is very very very hard to imagine an unsocial , anti social dog as a fine companion dog , given a better family situation , because the dog is not companionable.


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## Mary Jane

What a sad situation for your family and your dog. Although your dog sounds fearful, she has not previously been fear-aggressive. Have you checked her thyroid hormone levels? Low thyroid sometimes results in changes in behavior that can be reversed with treatment. Sorry if this has already been ruled out.

I hope you find a solution for your family and your dog, if at all possible

MJ


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## my boy diesel

*My daughter leaned forward and said "I love you bella I love you!!", which she often does though I tell her not to,*

13 yr old girl should know better
dog relies on u to keep people out of her space
at 13 she should listen to you as this is proof positive 
what happens when you disobey 
what your parents are telling you
this isnt an excuse for the dog but obviously
you have learned to read dog body language
13 yr old needs a crash course in doing so

did you look at Family Paws-New parent classes dog and baby ? 
the whole website is devoted to helping 
people look at how dogs are really quite 
uncomfortable when children invade their space
for those crowing about how
my dog lets children crawl all over it
read the site

your dog is a good dog with good breeding
or at least not genetically flawed breedings
but you are still asking for it
dogs who have bitten kids all start out like that

owners letting kids crawl all over it 
then being shocked when the dog bites
u could have see it coming a mile away!


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## Sunflowers

Mary Jane said:


> What a sad situation for your family and your dog. Although your dog sounds fearful, she has not previously been fear-aggressive. Have you checked her thyroid hormone levels? Low thyroid sometimes results in changes in behavior that can be reversed with treatment. Sorry if this has already been ruled out.
> 
> I hope you find a solution for your family and your dog, if at all possible
> 
> MJ


Thyroid problem since birth? Very unlikely.


----------



## carmspack

too classic ! " directly across from Bella who was laying beside the couch. Bella had one side to the couch, her rear to the wall, and my daughter was in front of her"

visualize this . the dog , from the dogs perspective , with low tolerance levels to proximity WAS CORNERED . no way to back out , back away , bite . quote " bella bit her and got up and walked away"

obstacle out of the way.


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## JakodaCD OA

I sympathize with your daughter and your family. However, this may not make me popular, and not meant to be harsh/judgemental, I'm ok with that

This dog has lived in your family for 5 years with no bite history, sure temperament issues, not a sound/stable dog, your daughter is 13 and should absolutely know better since she was told before to not put her face in the dogs face. 

I am not excusing what the dog did by any means, totally unacceptable, BUT she nailed her got up and walked away. She could have done alot more damage (not that she hasn't already) and NOT walked away. 

There's blame to go around, but then again, no one's to blame. The dog will suffer because the dog is the offender. 

What happens if you get another and the same thing happens? 

I feel terrible for your daughter, I feel bad for the dog who's going to pay with her life. No one wins in this situation


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## carmspack

"
your dog is a good dog with good breeding
or at least not genetically flawed breedings
but you are still asking for it
dogs who have bitten kids all start out like that"

this is wrong -- even in the von Stephanitz book there is a special attention drawn to the GSD being a lover of children, tolerant of the young -- I can pull the page and quote -- but not today


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## RocketDog

Doesn't anyone else find it odd the dog never liked the child from the beginning? Most dogs, nerve bags they may be, whether they don't like "other" children, like their own. Blaming this girl for showing affection to her (in her eyes, I guarantee-- 'beautiful') GSD is ridiculous. 

(Not that I'm saying you're doing that Diane.) 

But I guess I could see more if this was a friend over of the daughter's, dog didn't know. But a quiet evening at home with just the two of them involved in this incident? I don't like it.


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## carmspack

a home-dog should not have everyone walking on eggshells. Life is supposed to be joyful and spontaneous . 
What if it had been a friend of the 13 year old ?

lol -- it happened again rocket dog and I asking about a friend at the same time


----------



## Stevenzachsmom

Jack's Dad said:


> I'm tired of people excusing the lousy nerves in this breed and others.
> 
> It's not the dogs fault for their genetics but it is also not ok for dogs to bite family members. No matter what age.
> 
> Unless a kid or adult really hurts or torments a dog, the dog should not bite.
> 
> Dogs should enhance family life and family life should enhance the dogs life. If you have to spend your life tip toeing, and managing around your own dog what purpose does the relationship serve.
> 
> There are people who like to take on this type of dog but for most it is a major stressor and a liability that can take a heavy toll on a family.


I have come full circle back to what Jack's Dad said. Bella is not what a family dog should be. Having a dog should be fun and enjoyable, not stressful and miserable. If my family dog bit one of us in the face, I wouldn't even be on here having this discussion. This dog cannot simply be passed on to another home. I don't know anyone who is looking for this type of dog. I would free Bella of her demons and allow my family to heal. That is what I would do. The OP, needs to do what is right for his family. Only they can make that difficult decision.


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## my boy diesel

* this is wrong -- even in the von Stephanitz book there is a special attention drawn to the GSD being a lover of children, tolerant of the young -- I can pull the page and quote -- but not today 
*

well duh its wrong
but so are thousands of dogs today
i saw it mentioned eariler in this thread

what the dog *should* be vs what the dog *is*

platitudes about what this breed ought to be 
have little bearing on this discussion 

if all dogs were like they are supposed to be
there would not be bitings and even killings by dogs
including gsds

eta platitudes about what she should be
do have bearing i suppose if you are talking about wiping
badly bred gsds from 
the face of the earth
dogs that dont live up to the standard of 
being a jungle gym for kids i guess


----------



## RocketDog

my boy diesel said:


> * this is wrong -- even in the von Stephanitz book there is a special attention drawn to the GSD being a lover of children, tolerant of the young -- I can pull the page and quote -- but not today
> *
> 
> well duh its wrong
> but so are thousands of dogs today
> i saw it mentioned eariler in this thread
> 
> what the dog *should* be vs what the dog *is*
> 
> platitudes about what this breed ought to be
> have little bearing on this discussion
> 
> if all dogs were like they are supposed to be
> there would not be bitings and even killings by dogs
> including gsds


But a dog that bites it's own family member is a serious issue. You mentioned it was 'good breeding'. How do you know this? If it were truly good breeding, as carmspack said also, the dog would be true to most of the standard-- which indicates an affinity for children.


----------



## shepherdmom

LoveEcho said:


> On the flip side, when I was growing up I would have been smacked upside the head for sticking my face in the dog's, and if the dog corrected me I would have been asked what I learned.


Well apparently I set my dogs up to fail.... But you know what. They didn't. This is what I expect out of a dog with kids. Anything less is unacceptable.


----------



## my boy diesel

i didnt say the ops dog
has good breeding 
what i was saying is 

*for those crowing about how
my dog lets children crawl all over it
read the site

your dog is a good dog with good breeding
or at least not genetically flawed breedings
but you are still asking for it
dogs who have bitten kids all start out like that*

the dogs who let kids crawl all over are from
good or better breeding than the ops
but still dogs will surprise you
the only saving grace in that case
is learning dog body language and removing it
if it becomes stressed and uncomfortable with the kids 
on its back

eta nice pics shepherdmom
but those dogs are differently tempered
and not to mention have an escape
where this dog was cornered when the kid leaned over

yes all dogs should be able to tolerate a kid loving on it
but the plain fact is obviously some cannot
last year a mastiff killed a toddler that had formerly 
climbed all over it
one day it had enough and seeings as how no adults
stepped in to take said child off its back or head
the dog bit and killed the child

there is* what should be* and then there is *what is*


----------



## Sunflowers

my boy diesel said:


> dogs that dont live up to the standard of
> being a jungle gym for kids i guess




This was not a kid using the dog as a jungle gym. 

Goodness, if it were normal for a GSD to bite someone's face for getting close, I would no longer have a face. 

The dog has always been around this 13-year-old. 
No excuse for this.


----------



## RocketDog

my boy diesel said:


> i didnt say the ops dog
> has good breeding
> what i was saying is
> 
> *for those crowing about how
> my dog lets children crawl all over it
> read the site
> 
> your dog is a good dog with good breeding
> or at least not genetically flawed breedings
> but you are still asking for it
> dogs who have bitten kids all start out like that*
> 
> Where did you get this information? How do you know this is a 'good dog with good breeding'?
> 
> 
> the dogs who let kids crawl all over are from
> good or better breeding than the ops
> but still dogs will surprise you
> the only saving grace in that case
> is learning dog body language and removing it
> if it becomes stressed and uncomfortable with the kids
> on its back



Maybe I missed something?


----------



## Blanketback

OP said his sister PTS another dog from this breeder. I'm wondering about the circumstances around that.


----------



## Castlemaid

> Well apparently I set my dogs up to fail.... But you know what. They didn't. This is what I expect out of a dog with kids. Anything less is unacceptable.
> ]


I get where you are coming from, but posting these pics and declaring that this is normal just sets up OTHER dogs to fail. There are too many nervy, unpredictable, un-safe dogs out there, and too many people with unreasonable expectations of what a dog should put up with. They read that GSDs are good with kids, see pics like this with comments about how this is the expectations people should have of their dogs, and end up with a child that has been mauled. 

How we deal with our own dogs is our business, but we have to be responsible in what information we give out there for everyone to follow.


----------



## shepherdmom

my boy diesel said:


> eta nice pics shepherdmom
> but those dogs are differently tempered
> and not to mention have an escape
> where this dog was cornered when the kid leaned over


Thank you but the dog in the middle did not have a good temperament. She was a FA nerve bag outside her pack. The difference is my daughter was part of her pack. No dog should attack a pack member. That violates not only human behavior but doggie behavior. Something is seriously damaged in that animal. IMO.


----------



## shepherdmom

Castlemaid said:


> I get where you are coming from, but posting these pics and declaring that this is normal just sets up OTHER dogs to fail. There are too many nervy, unpredictable, un-safe dogs out there, and too many people with unreasonable expectations of what a dog should put up with. They read that GSDs are good with kids, see pics like this with comments about how this is the expectations people should have of their dogs, and end up with a child that has been mauled.
> 
> How we deal with our own dogs is our business, but we have to be responsible in what information we give out there for everyone to follow.


I disagree. I think any dog that is not that safe around children should be removed from the gene pool. The problem is that we are breeding these nervy, unpredictable, un-safe dogs rather than destroying them as we should be doing. That is no way for a dog to live and it is unfair to expect average pet owner to try and manage that.


----------



## Saphire

RocketDog said:


> Maybe I missed something?


I think we all read it the way it was typed but because "my diesel boy" does not use full sentences or punctuation it was interpreted differently than what was meant.


----------



## Barb E

RocketDog said:


> Maybe I missed something?


I THINK that (s?)he is making that good breeder statement to the folks that are "crowing about how my dog lets children crawl all over it"

I thought the same as you when I read it the first few times, the formatting is odd


----------



## Blanketback

Castlemaid said:


> I get where you are coming from, but posting these pics and declaring that this is normal just sets up OTHER dogs to fail.


_TOTALLY_ agree with this. There's a reason GSD rescues don't adopt out to families with young children. Are those dogs even GSDs? Let's be more responsible here, please.


----------



## RocketDog

Oh, you mean mbd is talking about people who are referencing their own dogs? Gotcha.


----------



## GatorBytes

OP - Is your dog currently being treated for any inflammation via steroids, or anti-inflammatories for hip dysplasia...is she on any Hw, flea, tick prevention - spot-on or oral? Did she receive a recent (within past month) rabies vaccine, do you vax. annually?


----------



## wolfy dog

I think it is tricky to take advice over the internet when it comes down to the life of the dog. In this case why don't you take her to a veterinary behaviorist? Then make the decision on what to do. At least you know then that you have tried everything.


----------



## donkeyturtle

Saphire said:


> My heart goes out to this young girl. A young girl that loves this dog unconditionally. Loves this dog even though she cannot interact with it. Leans forward to say "I love you Bella". This dog inflicts a serious bite and now this young girl sees her parents are devastated...she is no doubt devastated. She did NOT deserve this and I hope her parents are making sure she knows this is not her fault. The dog would be the least of my worries right now.


Thank you for that reminder Saphire. We are definitely trying to be loving to our daughter about this situation. When I first walked in, I held her while she cried and told her how sorry I was, I did my best to comfort her and clean up and bandage the wounds. I even shared to her how helpless I felt, there was nothing I could do to Bella, nothing I could do to take back what was done. Later, I also made sure she knew what she did was wrong, that she made a bad choice and there are consequences from that. This is definitely a life lesson for her. --- now and going forward, we need to be sure to continue to be loving towards her, and for her to know that her part is forgiven and she is loved no matter what. It is understandable for her to feel some guilt and blame, but she is forgiven (grace), and will hopefully learn and grow from it. I and my wife need to be sure not to let this weigh on our daughter in an unhealthy way. To be honest, my wife struggles with wanting to blame our daughter, and wants her to be as upset about it as she is. We can’t let that happen, and need to focus on moving forward, and the good memories. The other bummer is that our GSD was a source of protection for the wife and daughter if I wasn't around.



Stevenzachsmom said:


> I have come full circle back to what Jack's Dad said. Bella is not what a family dog should be. Having a dog should be fun and enjoyable, not stressful and miserable. If my family dog bit one of us in the face, I wouldn't even be on here having this discussion. This dog cannot simply be passed on to another home. I don't know anyone who is looking for this type of dog. I would free Bella of her demons and allow my family to heal. That is what I would do. The OP, needs to do what is right for his family. Only they can make that difficult decision.


I have to say -- I am so grateful and blessed that I found this site and posted on it. I am amazed by the variety of opinions and experiences shared by loving people who actually care. I am also inspired by pictures such as Shepherdsmom. I know in my heart what needs to be done, and reading through everyone's thoughts and comments has allowed me to really think things through, without letting the emotions cloudy and muddy things up too much. 

I also want to say though, the dog was not cornered with no way out. It was wide open to the side, and that’s where she went after biting. Additionally, she is up to date on all meds, no apparent health issues. She has always been on K9 Advantix 2 for fleas/ticks. Unfortunately, with her nerves and anxiety, it does not surprise me that she decided to bite, and I should have taken action before….


----------



## middleofnowhere

bga said:


> What an absurd position. Blaming an innocent child for showing affection to her family pet... Stable GSDs (or dogs of any kind) don't do this. At the very least, this dog should never again be in a home with children. It would take some major management no matter where it went...


The OP stated that the daughter knew she shouldn't do this. If one knows one shouldn't do it, one does it anyway -- there are consequences. And part of that is if one is aware one remembers the consequences. It is sad for the child, sad for the dog, sad for the family. You can twist that in to "blaming the victim" but it sort of shakes down to similar to the stove burner is hot, you know it will burn if you touch it, you touch it, you get burned. Is that the stoves fault? Sure the dog "shouldn't" have bit - BUT it was known that the dog didn't like this. I do stupid things, too. And sometimes I suffer the consequences.

So yeah, I don't think my position is so absurd. The daughter WILL live with the consequences of her action and feel bad about it. And that is sad. How is that absurd? 

BTW I think the OP is handling the situation with the daughter well.


----------



## blackshep

But in the case of the stove, you would expect to be burned. I would not expect to be bitten by my dog, even if I did something dumb.

The daughter is partially at fault, sure, but that doesn't mean there isn't a very serious problem with the dog that needs to be addressed in some manner.

I hope the OP will seek to a good behaviourist, before making any rash decisions and if the dog is on any meds, see if that is possibly contributing to the problem? Some meds have some strange side effects like aggression.


----------



## middleofnowhere

never said there wasn't a problem with the dog - didn't mean to imply that


----------



## nikon22shooter

If you were told the stove was hot, would you still touch it to see if it was hot?

The daughter was told to stay out of the dogs face (in fear of being bitten) the daughter chose to test the water. 

No ones fault, just a terrible accident and it should of never happened. I know my dog bites, when people are around, I don't let her out of arms reach.


----------



## carmspack

thank you rocket dog "If it were truly good breeding, as carmspack said also, the dog would be true to most of the standard-- which indicates an affinity for children"

In some cases dogs get out of hand , have no discipline , landshark because the are teething (all fodder for the early socialization thread) --- not raised properly -- and have problems because they have had a permissive , dog-centric house hold.
In some cases no matter what you do , the basic temperament of the dog fails to be workable , at some point there is the breaking point and you don't know when. 
I truly believe the OP when he says that the dog was in a "loving" home and was trained . All his posts and responses have been very level and rational in spite of the enormous stress he is under. Ultimately he and his council , of vet and behaviourists (if he chooses that route) will have to make the decision. 

Even at best the dog living out a natural life may have another 5 years . Quality ? or Quantity ? has to be considered for the dogs sake .

The young girl , at 13, could live another 80 , god willing . She should not be crucified with guilt for being spontaneous and loving toward her dog .


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Yes, *especially* if you *knew* one of the dogs in the pics below had issues prior to the bite, then you failed the dog and if the child is really young, the child too. 

I guess because we grew up around and handled many animals that were potentially dangerous on the farm and my mother was raised on a farm as well, we were taught from a very young age you do not treat or handle dogs this way. I depended somewhat on the dog but we simply were not allowed to straddle, ride, push or pull our dogs tails. We were told to 'leave the dog alone when it's eating'. The way it was taught to us, was respect for the animals. Even though some of them may end up on our dinner table the animals were to be treated with respect.

If we disobeyed, at the age of 13, warnings of my parents regarding the handling or care of our animals I (or my sister) were punished, not the animal. Maybe it's a rural thing or a pre 1980s thing, I don't know. That's just how I was raised, take responsibility when I disobeyed or didn't apply what was taught to me for the wellbeing of myself and the animals.

When I read the OP was 'frustrated' because the dog was not bonded with he or his daughter that's when I decided to post my thoughts. It's not the dog's fault they weren't bonded and that's probably why the daughter got in the dog's face, trying to overcome that frustration of feeling 'rejected' by the dog. 

Wrong all the way around. 





shepherdmom said:


> Well apparently I set my dogs up to fail.... But you know what. They didn't. This is what I expect out of a dog with kids. Anything less is unacceptable.


----------



## my boy diesel

the take away from this should be
learn to read dog body language and 
stop treating dogs like humans
dogs greet and interact with each other directly opposite of how humans do
what humans find wonderful loving and kind
dogs are often uncomfortable with that same behavior such as face to face greetings

dogs sniff each others butts to greet each other; people shake each others hands; and people cant figure out why dogs are uncomfortable when we stick their faces into theirs?

Body Language & Calming Signals | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Reading Animal Body Language

but a few examples


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

No, your position is not absurd at all and IMO (in blue) this is what is lacking these days.




middleofnowhere said:


> The OP stated that the daughter knew she shouldn't do this. *If one knows one shouldn't do it, one does it anyway -- there are consequences*. And part of that is if one is aware one remembers the consequences. It is sad for the child, sad for the dog, sad for the family. You can twist that in to "blaming the victim" but it sort of shakes down to similar to the stove burner is hot, you know it will burn if you touch it, you touch it, you get burned. Is that the stoves fault? Sure the dog "shouldn't" have bit - BUT it was known that the dog didn't like this. I do stupid things, too. And sometimes I suffer the consequences.
> 
> So yeah, I don't think my position is so absurd. The daughter WILL live with the consequences of her action and feel bad about it. And that is sad. How is that absurd?
> 
> BTW I think the OP is handling the situation with the daughter well.


----------



## mcdanfam

GatorBytes said:


> OP - Is your dog currently being treated for any inflammation via steroids, or anti-inflammatories for hip dysplasia...is she on any Hw, flea, tick prevention - spot-on or oral? Did she receive a recent (within past month) rabies vaccine, do you vax. annually?



Our female did get moody when on oral steroids...we just gave her the space she needed for the 10 days she was on the steroids. I had fully anticipated the moodiness since our teen has asthma and has been on steroids in the past....boy....kids and dogs....should have mood stabilizers when on steroids. 

Do all of these medications have input on moods..? 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## my boy diesel

Castlemaid said:


> I get where you are coming from, but posting these pics and declaring that this is normal just sets up OTHER dogs to fail. *There are too many nervy, unpredictable, un-safe dogs out there, and too many people with unreasonable expectations of what a dog should put up with. They read that GSDs are good with kids, see pics like this with comments about how this is the expectations people should have of their dogs, and end up with a child that has been mauled. *
> 
> How we deal with our own dogs is our business, but we have to be responsible in what information we give out there for everyone to follow.


this whole thread could end with the above sentence in bold 

dogs aren't robots and some people really need to get a stuffed animal instead of a living breathing feeling pet


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## nikon22shooter

I couldn't agree more.


----------



## Blanketback

Considering that the majority of dogs bites are inflicted on children, by dogs known to them - can we please have these pictures removed? The dogs might pay a price with their lives, and the children could be disfigured for life. Why are we encouraging this when we know better? And if we don't know better, why aren't we off googling 'hugging dogs bite prevention' instead of saying that this is what we expect to be able to do to all our dogs, all the time? Cripes.


----------



## mcdanfam

donkeyturtle said:


> Thank you for that reminder Saphire. We are definitely trying to be loving to our daughter about this situation. When I first walked in, I held her while she cried and told her how sorry I was, I did my best to comfort her and clean up and bandage the wounds. I even shared to her how helpless I felt, there was nothing I could do to Bella, nothing I could do to take back what was done. Later, I also made sure she knew what she did was wrong, that she made a bad choice and there are consequences from that. This is definitely a life lesson for her. --- now and going forward, we need to be sure to continue to be loving towards her, and for her to know that her part is forgiven and she is loved no matter what. It is understandable for her to feel some guilt and blame, but she is forgiven (grace), and will hopefully learn and grow from it. I and my wife need to be sure not to let this weigh on our daughter in an unhealthy way. To be honest, my wife struggles with wanting to blame our daughter, and wants her to be as upset about it as she is. We can’t let that happen, and need to focus on moving forward, and the good memories. The other bummer is that our GSD was a source of protection for the wife and daughter if I wasn't around.
> 
> 
> 
> I have to say -- I am so grateful and blessed that I found this site and posted on it. I am amazed by the variety of opinions and experiences shared by loving people who actually care. I am also inspired by pictures such as Shepherdsmom. I know in my heart what needs to be done, and reading through everyone's thoughts and comments has allowed me to really think things through, without letting the emotions cloudy and muddy things up too much.
> 
> I also want to say though, the dog was not cornered with no way out. It was wide open to the side, and that’s where she went after biting. Additionally, she is up to date on all meds, no apparent health issues. She has always been on K9 Advantix 2 for fleas/ticks. Unfortunately, with her nerves and anxiety, it does not surprise me that she decided to bite, and I should have taken action before….



I have no advice...and with it not being my child I have no opinion. As a mother I would not want to be judged for protecting my child, as a dog owner I would also not want to be judged in that area. I know as a parent and dog owner I have made mistakes daily. It is part of life...:-( 
While things did happen....your daughter is safe and that is what matters most. I just wanted to say I am sorry you are having to makes choices for a matter like this. I can't imagine having to make that choice. You and your family's hearts must be breaking. You, your family and your dog are in my thoughts and prayers. 



Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

EXACTLY!

and...yes, I was googling a child's dog bite prevention picture that I saw yesterday and now can't find. 



Blanketback said:


> Considering that the majority of dogs bites are inflicted on children, by dogs known to them - can we please have these pictures removed? The dogs might pay a price with their lives, and the children could be disfigured for life. Why are we encouraging this when we know better? And if we don't know better, why aren't we off googling 'hugging dogs bite prevention' instead of saying that this is what we expect to be able to do to all our dogs, all the time? Cripes.


----------



## SiegersMom

I would never stick my face into the face of a dog I did not know. This dog was stand offish so they should not have interacted that way with it BUT my dog comes up to my face and licks my nose. I close my eyes and rest my forehead on his and it is just his normal greeting. A household pet should be tolerable of the family members if is normal and well adjusted. And to people inferring that a 13 year old is an adult...do you have kids? They are still kids and kids are kids. They make mistakes and it is sad that this kid has a dog that is not loving or playful. Even knowing the dog has some fear issues I'm sure they never expected to be bitten by their long time pet. I love the pics posted of the kids rolling with dogs. This is how kids in homes with loving dogs interact. It is just sad. In a home with no children this dog may be fine but who knows.


----------



## Saphire

nikon22shooter said:


> The daughter was told to stay out of the dogs face (in fear of being bitten) the daughter chose to test the water.


This is not correct. The father himself has already stated he never thought the dog would bite anybody especially a family member. 

Where in this thread was it stated the daughter was told the dog may bite her face if she got close? Did I miss it?


----------



## Saphire

carmspack said:


> The young girl , at 13, could live another 80 , god willing . She should not be crucified with guilt for being spontaneous and loving toward her dog .


This exactly!


----------



## bga

middleofnowhere said:


> The OP stated that the daughter knew she shouldn't do this. If one knows one shouldn't do it, one does it anyway -- there are consequences. And part of that is if one is aware one remembers the consequences. It is sad for the child, sad for the dog, sad for the family. You can twist that in to "blaming the victim" but it sort of shakes down to similar to the stove burner is hot, you know it will burn if you touch it, you touch it, you get burned. Is that the stoves fault? Sure the dog "shouldn't" have bit - BUT it was known that the dog didn't like this. I do stupid things, too. And sometimes I suffer the consequences.
> 
> So yeah, I don't think my position is so absurd. The daughter WILL live with the consequences of her action and feel bad about it. And that is sad. How is that absurd?
> 
> BTW I think the OP is handling the situation with the daughter well.


It doesn't take any twisting .... you blamed the victim, and you continue to do so. Sure she will continue to suffer the consequences. Will she feel bad about it? I can't answer that. If it happened to me I would likely grow up believing that GSDs should be banned for everything except for working purposes. 

The bottom line is that a dog such as this should never be in a family home. So ya, I'll stand by the assertion that your statement is absurd. No family dog should bite simply because someone invades its space. The dog should be euthanized not because the child got in its face, but simply because it is an unstable dog.

I disagree with your stove-top comparison. Even though stove tops have been domesticated for a far shorter period than dogs, the former is, generally speaking, far less mobile. In addition, stove tops are much more tolerant of having things in their face. We put pots on ours all the time!


----------



## nikon22shooter

Saphire said:


> This is not correct. The father himself has already stated he never thought the dog would bite anybody especially a family member.
> 
> Where in this thread was it stated the daughter was told the dog may bite her face if she got close? Did I miss it?


Go back through the 16 pages, its somewhere.

She was told to stay out of the dogs face. Unless another member said that.

Why would anyone tell a kid to stay out of a dogs face? Afraid its going to lick them to death.

The only valid answer is fear of bite.


----------



## carmspack

the dog needed better management . when you live with a certain condition the family tends to accept it as new normal -- things are taken for granted -- the situation has not "snapped" yet , in this case it did .

is there hypocrisy then when a dog is rescued from shelter , in a home for one week , and pictures are posted with very close , head to head pictures. Luckily this dog is stable and tolerant . But still this is an ADULT who should KNOW BETTER , especially with a dog that they do not know (yet). Didn't see any "oh you shouldn't be doing that posts" there , just the opposite , some probably envious because their dog is not a cuddler. 

Can't blame the child.


----------



## my boy diesel

again with the "no dog should" 
of course no dog should but the blatant fact is that some dogs do
the family knew this dog to be a potential bite risk
perhaps they aren't saying as much but perhaps they saw a lip curl or something
the child is 13; the dog is 5 
they got the dog when the child was 8 years old
and have told her repeatedly to stay out of the dogs face
what other conclusion can one draw except that this was not a totally unexpected occurrence?
rather the owner seems almost resigned as in "it finally happened"


----------



## carmspack

"what other conclusion can one draw except that this was not a totally unexpected occurrence?"

as I said you live with a potential condition for so long and nothing has happened , the concern goes on the back burner -- you almost forget -- 

this is not a dog for a home.


----------



## shepherdmom

bga said:


> The bottom line is that a dog such as this should never be in a family home. So ya, I'll stand by the assertion that your statement is absurd. No family dog should bite simply because someone invades its space. The dog should be euthanized not because the child got in its face, but simply because it is an unstable dog.


This ^^^ :thumbup:


----------



## Saphire

donkeyturtle said:


> she usually moans at us if we touch her....


This may be a serious missed cue. I suspect the "moan" is more likely a growl and serious warning. How many more postures were missed?


----------



## bga

Gwenhwyfair said:


> No, your position is not absurd at all and IMO (in blue) this is what is lacking these days.


I agree with you in general. I think society as a whole very much reflects what you say. But I don't think that applies to this situation where there is a pretty harsh, perhaps potentially deadly, consequence? If the girl had been killed, would you stand by that position, and smugly say, "Well, she should have known better"? 

I guess what really irritates me about this is that some people seem to be suggesting that this is somehow normal or acceptable behavior for a dog. It's not.

A child should not have to watch her / his every move for fear of being mangled by the family pet, even if they "knew better".


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Exactly and the fact of the matter is most children are bitten by their OWN family dogs. So what's absurd is expecting dogs to be 100% bomb proof around children 100% of the time.

And yes, the OP did write and I'll dig it up his daughter was warned.



my boy diesel said:


> *again with the "no dog should"*
> of course no dog should but the blatant fact is that some dogs do
> the family knew this dog to be a potential bite risk
> perhaps they aren't saying as much but perhaps they saw a lip curl or something
> the child is 13; the dog is 5
> they got the dog when the child was 8 years old
> *and have told her repeatedly to stay out of the dogs face
> *what other conclusion can one draw except that this was not a totally unexpected occurrence?
> rather the owner seems almost resigned as in "it finally happened"


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

First post.



donkeyturtle said:


> We have had our female german shepherd for 5 years, named bella. She is well trained in the usual commands, and even goes to the bathroom where we want in her kennel. She has always been an indoor dog, except for exercise or if we're away for hours we leave her in our fenced in yard. In terms of her personality she often does not want to be touched or petted except by my wife. My wife spent most of the time with her the first couple years we had her, and bella is her baby. Bella in general does not want to have much to do with me or my daughter, she just prefers to not be bothered.
> 
> The other day, Bella was sitting on the ground and Abby put her face close to Bella's face, saying she loved her. Bella then proceeded to bite Abby on the nose, causing a large cut, a puncture, internal bleeding and bruising. Bella had never bit anyone before, but Abby did know that she shouldn't be in Bella's face.
> 
> At this point, since Bella bit our daughter after being in our family 5 years, I think we have to have her put down. She is so anxious and skittish as it is, and I would not trust her in being around other people or kids. We don't have any behavioral specialists near our small town, even if we did have the time and ability to put in multiple hours trying to cure her anxieties. This is obviously a very difficult decision, especially for my wife. Not sure what I'm looking for in posting this....but feel free to respond with any thoughts.


----------



## carmspack

the dog has won many a battle with manipulation through subtle aggression ,


----------



## Jack's Dad

So the average family wants a family pet to love and take care of, to hang around with and have fun. They would like it if their dog did not bite anyone, especially any family member.

Well not so fast average family. Your dog may have temperament issues or health issues. So before you rush out and pick up that cute little puppy or rescue that dog, or save one from animal control be prepared.

Make certain all family members understand your dogs frustrations and health problems. Do not invade your dogs space. If your dog is unhappy with something stop what you are doing. Teach children not to go near the dog for fear of upsetting said animal and causing the dog to feel a bite is necessary.
Don't allow friends or neighbors to stare at or encroach on your dogs space. Do not pet, especially with hand on head.
If neighbors, friends an relatives won't comply, dump them. You have a dog to care for.

If precautions fail anyway, then you need help. Be sure to retain an emergency vet, a chiropractor, acupuncturist, a trainer, behaviorist, and an attorney.
It helps to also have fifty thousand dollars or so in a bank account to cover any health issues and to pay the above people as needed.

Now get on out there an get that puppy/dog and have yourself a good time.

Oh you might have to quit your job to stay home and "watch" the interaction with your children. That way your dog won't be set up to fail.


----------



## nikon22shooter

Thank you gwenhwyfair. I knew I wasn't crazy


----------



## Blanketback

I think Carmen is onto something with the "new normal" comment. I know in my grandfather's day, any dog that bit was promptly disposed of. But he was a farmer and his dogs worked. To have a dog that was unstable wasn't a consideration. But these days, with so many dogs cooped up in the house and without any outlet, are we helping to create instability? Is it possible that they're living very frustrated lives?


----------



## Eiros

I don't have any input on the situation except that its sad for the family and the dog.

Unfortunately, even if some dogs "shouldn't" be in existence, they are. Treating them as if they were a different dog, with a different personality, is setting them up for failure. 

A dog that I had to "watch my every move" around would not be a good fit for most people. I don't think that's what this dog is. She reacted to something that many dogs might see as an aggressive move towards the face. Many dogs do and are expected to tolerate this, but not every dog can. Whether or not that's an acceptable trait does not matter, because dogs like Bella still exist.

Expecting the dog to be something she isn't is not very fair. That doesn't mean the behavior should be tolerated at all by the family, and it doesn't mean that it's their fault at all. This has to be a really tough position. Overall, I think it's important to understand and respect what your pet is. I don't think its fair to expect GSDs, or dogs in general, to not have different personalities, good or bad. 

My sympathies for the family


----------



## my boy diesel

we are missing much of this puzzle already
how is the dog handled on a daily basis?
does she resource guard, etc are their other warning signs?

jacksdad
you and a few others seem to believe dogs are little people in fur coats
with morals and capacity to think and reason 
"oh my this is a family member, i can't bite him or her"

gwen makes extremely valid points that we were taught growing up to be careful around animals
why? BECAUSE THEY ARE ANIMALS

nowadays dogs are family members and people buy little cutesy toys and diapers
and coddle 
and for all that the dog "shouldn't" bite us and if it does it is now an evil creature that deserves to die


----------



## LoveEcho

bga said:


> I guess what really irritates me about this is that some people seem to be suggesting that this is somehow normal or acceptable behavior for a dog. It's not.


Definitely not normal... but this goes back into the "dog you want" vs the "dog you have." We can talk all day about what the ideal dog should be like and tolerate, but there are dogs who don't fit into that mold- what then? They knew the dog had issues, and this behavior was not at all unpredictable based on what the dog had displayed in the past. Could it have been prevented? Probably. Should a family have to deal with that level of management for a pet? Probably not. This is a scenario where there is no easy answer, at all, especially based on limited information from an online forum.

So sad for the OP and his family to be going through this, and sad for the dog. Sad all around


----------



## carmspack

Meanwhile we had a dog in the house so when we were out, delayed from coming home on schedule , our kids could come into the house and know that no one who shouldn't be there was there , and no one who shouldn't be there would come in.
We were all secure with this.

Another house , another dog (progeny of the first one mentioned) , my child and my dear friend's child about a year younger would lounge under the kitchen table playing with toys while the dog was there legs outstretched which great mountains in the play scenario. The dog rather liked the baby , mmm diapers . If she was bothered she picked herself up and left --- not ever a hint of animosity . Baby bonked with a squeaky plastic hammer . 

Many years later, mentioned in another thread, maybe genetic obedience or buffy badge on my collar , Leroy , immediately after 3 man agitation in American street ring type training would run to visit my grand daughter , 3 years at most who was supervised by other moms with babes in umbroller strollers . He loved the little baby boy , who is now shaving and driving and gainfully employed --- loved the tubby sweaty arms and would lick them. Most people in this training club had dogs of mine and they were raised right in the hearth and bossom of the family , babes, young animals , farm hands, and they never ever ever were a concern. 

On my web site , I believe on "our record" there is a picture of two New Hampshire state troopers having just graduated certification with "Kai" -- and on the bottom of the same page you can see him with his brand new baby in the family , the first born , in a lime green jolly one piece.

Le Roy adored children .


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

The child lived with the dog from the age of 8 to 13 without incident.

She then broke a rule (see quoted post from OP above) and got in the dogs' face. I also noted the comment about 'moaning' earlier in this thread which I suspect as Saphire does, it was a low warning growl.

Then the OP commented about being 'frustrated' having a dog that seemed to only be bonded with his wife and didn't enjoy interacting with he or his daughter.

So I'll admittedly go out on a limb and conjecture, that his daughter disobeyed earlier warnings to stay out of the dog's face because she did not like feeling 'rejected' by the dog.

Also the dog probably sent many other body language warnings before the bite that the girl ignored in her zeal to 'get the dog to love her'. The dog bit her nose and released as the OP did not describe anything further. So therefore your comparison to a mauling/mangling type situation is is inaccurate and appeals to an emotional level. A dog that mauls and kills is entirely different then the family dog biting,* once* and releasing.

In this particular case, given the description by the OP, the age of his daughter, the 'moaning', warning, comments about he and the daughter feeling 'frustrated' that this young lady made a mistake.

I've been reading up on the stats today and most bites are kids, vast majority by dogs they live with at home. Given that the humans are the ones responsible for training not only the dogs but the kids who *in general* is to blame for this problem? Not the dogs......



bga said:


> I agree with you in general. I think society as a whole very much reflects what you say. But I don't think that applies to this situation where there is a pretty harsh, perhaps potentially deadly, consequence? If the girl had been killed, would you stand by that position, and smugly say, "Well, she should have known better"?
> 
> I guess what really irritates me about this is that some people seem to be suggesting that this is somehow normal or acceptable behavior for a dog. It's not.
> 
> A child should not have to watch her / his every move for fear of being mangled by the family pet, even if they "knew better".


----------



## Saphire

There are certain expectations we have for children. Making mistakes are part of growing up.

If some of you believe this was the childs fault and its ok to lay it on her to carry with her for a lifetime...do you also believe the child who is playing with daddy's gun, accidentally shoots himself then dies is all part of consequences and learning curve? Parents had always told said child to never touch dads gun. 

Parent at fault or child at fault?


----------



## nikon22shooter

A gun and a dog bite, really? Oh boy here we go


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

I have to part ways with you a bit on the below.

My mom was bit by the neighbor's farm dog and they didn't put the dog down. This was 1940s and the dog was guarding milk cans (mom was a farm girl too and was helping the neighbors when she was bit).

I recall dogs in our neighborhood that were warned to stay away from.

A good friend of mine was bitten as a child by her neighbor's GSD when she was over playing with their daughter. The dog owners paid all the medical bills but did not put the dog down.

Now if the dog went after livestock, different story. 

IMHO we had friendly dogs, guarding dogs, nervy 'scaredy' dogs and so on going back in time.....



Blanketback said:


> I think Carmen is onto something with the "new normal" comment. I know in my grandfather's day, any dog that bit was promptly disposed of. But he was a farmer and his dogs worked. To have a dog that was unstable wasn't a consideration. But these days, with so many dogs cooped up in the house and without any outlet, are we helping to create instability? Is it possible that they're living very frustrated lives?


----------



## carmspack

by "new normal" I meant that within a family, let's say , someone has dementia after a while it just becomes a part of who that person is -- there is an acceptance --- then when that person wanders off , or the condition becomes more pronounced there is a wake up call , and new conditions have to be adapted to .
sometimes a third party will see something as glaring , to you it is normal


----------



## my boy diesel

this is getting ridiculous
how about a child playing in the road?
learning curve? 
child is now smashed lying in icu or cemetary

who is at fault?
certainly the parents for not spanking the child and teaching them to stay out of the road
but whoops cant spank nowadays!

seriously we could do this all day

sometimes there is no right or wrong but there just IS


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Like the poster below states, common sense and these were the common sense rules I grew up with....


----------



## carmspack

those dogs were doing a job .


----------



## my boy diesel

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Like the poster below states, common sense and these were the common sense rules I grew up with....


oh but it is a dog
i feed it every day and provide a shelter so it must know we love it and since it knows that, we expect it to *not *behave like a dog!
irony that everything that would bug a human and that we would discipline our kids for, the dog cannot resort to same disciplines for the rudeness 

we would be furious if a waiter took our food mid-meal but the dog is expected to tolerate having it's food taken away without question or good-night fido!


----------



## Saphire

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Like the poster below states, common sense and these were the common sense rules I grew up with....


I too grew up with dog rules and was taught to respect a dogs space. My children were taught the same. Not everyone teaches their children how to interact properly with animals.


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## Blanketback

I get what you're saying Carmen. People do get used to things, overlook behaviors..."quirks" that you or I would see as red flags.

Gwen, that dog was guarding the milk. I'm sure my greatgrandfather would praise a dog doing its job - but going after my grandfather or one of his 10 (OMG, the poor women back then, lol) siblings would be entirely different.


----------



## Jack's Dad

my boy diesel said:


> we are missing much of this puzzle already
> how is the dog handled on a daily basis?
> does she resource guard, etc are their other warning signs?
> 
> *jacksdad
> you and a few others seem to believe dogs are little people in fur coats
> with morals and capacity to think and reason
> "oh my this is a family member, i can't bite him or her"*
> 
> gwen makes extremely valid points that we were taught growing up to be careful around animals
> why? BECAUSE THEY ARE ANIMALS
> 
> nowadays dogs are family members and people buy little cutesy toys and diapers
> and coddle
> and for all that the dog "shouldn't" bite us and if it does it is now an evil creature that deserves to die[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> 
> 100% wrong. Treating dogs like little humans is one of the major factors in what's wrong these days.
> 
> What I do believe is dogs have to fit in to family and society. I also believe that unless there are genetic issues, like weak nerves etc....that dogs will pretty much live up to what you expect of them.
> 
> In my family there are dos and don'ts and kids and dogs will generally live up to those expectations. However we, kids,dogs adults all make mistakes.
> 
> If humans punch someone out they usually pay the consequences. It may not seem fair to you because animals don't reason the way humans do but they still have to fit in or face the consequences.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Yup. Given that stats show most kids are bitten by their own dogs it is fair to say - parents aren't teaching their children.

This poster does a good job because it shows that we should treat dogs with respect, just as we would want to be treated.

This is how my father framed these lessons to me growing up. It was about respecting the animal no matter if it's a pet or livestock.

Not to pick on the OP too much....but I run into to people who get so hurt that my Ilda doesn't run up to them and love them the instant she lays eyes on them. She's aloof with strangers. What I often hear is 'but all dogs love me'. 

So I wonder if the shift isn't that we've become too narcissistic about dogs?

and...anthropomorphize too much (which IMHO may be one of the main causes the OPs dog is in danger of being PTS).




Saphire said:


> I too grew up with dog rules and was taught to respect a dogs space. My children were taught the same. Not everyone teaches their children how to interact properly with animals.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Yes, he was guarding the milkcans, you are correct., but he knew my mom and she had helped there before. 

Still if that happened now a days, everything else being the same, I suspect the outcry would be to put the dog down and that the dog was 'unstable'.

In blue, true as well! 




Blanketback said:


> I get what you're saying Carmen. People do get used to things, overlook behaviors..."quirks" that you or I would see as red flags.
> 
> Gwen, that dog was guarding the milk. I'm sure my greatgrandfather would praise a dog doing its job - but going after my grandfather or one of his 10 (OMG, the poor women back then, lol) siblings would be entirely different.


----------



## my boy diesel

* I also believe that unless there are genetic issues, like weak nerves etc*

and you have just described the majority of dogs out there today!
so where does that leave us?
treat them all like a potential bite risk
makes sense to me!

and don't post up pics of your kids riding the dang dogs for gosh sake 
maybe that ought to be the new shelter test
can my child ride this dog with ease or will they be bitten??


----------



## shepherdmom

Jack's Dad said:


> So the average family wants a family pet to love and take care of, to hang around with and have fun. They would like it if their dog did not bite anyone, especially any family member.
> 
> Well not so fast average family. Your dog may have temperament issues or health issues. So before you rush out and pick up that cute little puppy or rescue that dog, or save one from animal control be prepared.
> 
> Make certain all family members understand your dogs frustrations and health problems. Do not invade your dogs space. If your dog is unhappy with something stop what you are doing. Teach children not to go near the dog for fear of upsetting said animal and causing the dog to feel a bite is necessary.
> Don't allow friends or neighbors to stare at or encroach on your dogs space. Do not pet, especially with hand on head.
> If neighbors, friends an relatives won't comply, dump them. You have a dog to care for.
> 
> If precautions fail anyway, then you need help. Be sure to retain an emergency vet, a chiropractor, acupuncturist, a trainer, behaviorist, and an attorney.
> It helps to also have fifty thousand dollars or so in a bank account to cover any health issues and to pay the above people as needed.
> 
> Now get on out there an get that puppy/dog and have yourself a good time.
> 
> Oh you might have to quit your job to stay home and "watch" the interaction with your children. That way your dog won't be set up to fail.


:spittingcoffee: 

I probably shouldn't laugh but you sure nailed it!


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

I guess, in general, I reject the argument that there are dogs biting kids primarily/or more often because dogs are 'less stable' or are 'nervy' now then dogs in the past.

My premise is that dogs bite, especially in the case of family dogs, as much if not more because we are expecting them to have a much higher tolerance of interaction with humans then in the past. 

In reading around on the net, I'm not alone in this. The AVMA, ASPCA and other organizations are putting out bite prevention programs which address this.


----------



## nikon22shooter

Typical emotional response. smh.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Lol!!! 



my boy diesel said:


> * i also believe that unless there are genetic issues, like weak nerves etc*
> 
> and you have just described the majority of dogs out there today!
> So where does that leave us?
> Treat them all like a potential bite risk
> makes sense to me!
> 
> And don't post up pics of your kids riding the dang dogs for gosh sake
> *maybe that ought to be the new shelter test
> can my child ride this dog with ease or will they be bitten??*


----------



## Blanketback

I'm not really suggesting the dogs are 'less stable' as far as their temperaments go - more along the lines of "a tired dog is a good dog" and some of our dogs are lucky if they get a walk once a week...on a Sunday, if it's nice out.


----------



## RocketDog

The fact remains-- this girl wasn't really invading the dog's space that much. I would like to ask all of you who say she is at fault, how do you pet your dog? Do you only stand by it's side, facing parallel with the dog, so you're not looking it in the eye--aggressive--, stroking it's shoulder,--safe-- standing up so you're not 'in it's face'?  Please. People bend down, squat down, scratch their dog's cheeks, face, ears all the time. 

This young girl was laying there doing her homework, reached out to scratch her dog's head. For god's sake. Quit acting like she attacked it and squeezed it or something. This is a girl the dog has GROWN UP WITH. I teach bite prevention classes to young kids. You know what? THEY ALL STILL WANT TO HUG HIM AT THE END OF CLASS. It's called "KIDS". I wonder if some of you saying it's her fault have kids. Teenagers have no frontal cortex. They make mistakes. Again....reaching out to pet her dog is perfectly freaking NORMAL.


----------



## nikon22shooter

I'm sure there is more to the story than "petting" the dog.


----------



## shepherdmom

my boy diesel said:


> * I also believe that unless there are genetic issues, like weak nerves etc*
> 
> and you have just described the majority of dogs out there today!
> so where does that leave us?
> treat them all like a potential bite risk
> makes sense to me!
> 
> and don't post up pics of your kids riding the dang dogs for gosh sake
> maybe that ought to be the new shelter test
> can my child ride this dog with ease or will they be bitten??



Those pictures are over 20 years old. Showing how dogs used to be and how they should be. They were taken way before the PC police took over. The baby sitting on her dog now has a college degree. The dog she was sitting on died of old age at almost 14 without ever once having bitten someone. Somehow nerve bag dogs have become acceptable and the norm. I don't know how that happened.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

There is and the OP has given clear indications of it.



nikon22shooter said:


> I'm sure there is more to the story than "petting" the dog.


----------



## Lark

RocketDog said:


> The fact remains-- this girl wasn't really invading the dog's space that much. I would like to ask all of you who say she is at fault, how do you pet your dog? Do you only stand by it's side, facing parallel with the dog, so you're not looking it in the eye--aggressive--, stroking it's shoulder,--safe-- standing up so you're not 'in it's face'?  Please. People bend down, squat down, scratch their dog's cheeks, face, ears all the time.
> 
> This young girl was laying there doing her homework, reached out to scratch her dog's head. For god's sake. Quit acting like she attacked it and squeezed it or something. This is a girl the dog has GROWN UP WITH. I teach bite prevention classes to young kids. You know what? THEY ALL STILL WANT TO HUG HIM AT THE END OF CLASS. It's called "KIDS". I wonder if some of you saying it's her fault have kids. Teenagers have no frontal cortex. They make mistakes. Again....reaching out to pet her dog is perfectly freaking NORMAL.


I feel terrible for everyone involved, including the dog. But I agree with this post - I love to hug and kiss my dog. Thankfully he has an awesome disposition and seems to enjoy physical affection. I can't imagine him ever biting somebody in the face. So sorry your family and your dog has to go through this - what a mess. One of those situations where there is no good solution.


----------



## Courtney

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I guess, in general, I reject the argument that there are dogs biting kids primarily/or more often because dogs are 'less stable' or are 'nervy' now then dogs in the past.
> 
> My premise is that dogs bite, especially in the case of family dogs, as much if not more because we are expecting them to have a much higher tolerance of interaction with humans then in the past.
> 
> In reading around on the net, I'm not alone in this. The AVMA, ASPCA and other organizations are putting out bite prevention programs which address this.


I agree. Some kids shouldn't even have access to a gold fish let alone a dog. 

Of course what happened to this girl is _awful. _Some don't walk away from a dog bite without having reconstructive surgery. Emotional scars will last forever for some - always nervous around dogs. I have no idea if the dog in the OP's post should be put to sleep. I will never comment on such things.

I cringe when seeing some kids around dogs. My parents neighbors come to mind. The parents believe any dog that comes into their home should have to deal with kids and their unpredictable behavior. For instance - giving the dog a toy - then snatching it back - slamming into the dogs while running full force - squeezing the dogs face for kisses and on and on.

Whatever. I'm not drinking that Kool-Aid. I bet a lot of breeders on here who breed exceptional dogs would not want one of their pups in that constant environment - a free for all just because it's a child.


----------



## RocketDog

Gwenhwyfair said:


> There is and the OP has given clear indications of it.


The OP said the dog was never 'bonded', not that it was aggressive towards them. If you think that in 5 years, starting with a puppy and an 8 year old girl, she's never petted that dog before, you're living in a different world than I am. Do you have kids? Have you seen how kids act? How do you pet your dog? Do you avoid their face area at all times? 

I'd bet not. It is unreasonable to expect her not to want to pet the dog that is part of her family. If you do have kids, how do your kids act with your dog? I'd venture to say they have petted them while down on their level.


----------



## Jack's Dad

RocketDog said:


> The fact remains-- this girl wasn't really invading the dog's space that much. I would like to ask all of you who say she is at fault, how do you pet your dog? Do you only stand by it's side, facing parallel with the dog, so you're not looking it in the eye--aggressive--, stroking it's shoulder,--safe-- standing up so you're not 'in it's face'?  Please. People bend down, squat down, scratch their dog's cheeks, face, ears all the time.
> 
> This young girl was laying there doing her homework, reached out to scratch her dog's head. For god's sake. Quit acting like she attacked it and squeezed it or something. This is a girl the dog has GROWN UP WITH. I teach bite prevention classes to young kids. You know what? THEY ALL STILL WANT TO HUG HIM AT THE END OF CLASS. It's called "KIDS". I wonder if some of you saying it's her fault have kids. Teenagers have no frontal cortex. They make mistakes. Again....reaching out to pet her dog is perfectly freaking NORMAL.


Amen. Nice post Rocket. I lean over and hold the side of both my working line GSDs faces and pet them while they try to lick my face. I would not do that to a strange dog but I'm not a threat to my dogs so why would they be concerned.


----------



## Blanketback

RocketDog, why are these kids not learning what you're teaching them? Why waste your time, and theirs? Maybe they need to meet someone who's had their life changed by a dog bite.


----------



## my boy diesel

Courtney said:


> I agree. Some kids shouldn't even have access to a gold fish let alone a dog.
> 
> Of course what happened to this girl is _awful. _Some don't walk away from a dog bite without having reconstructive surgery. Emotional scars will last forever for some - always nervous around dogs. I have no idea if the dog in the OP's post should be put to sleep. I will never comment on such things.
> 
> I cringe when seeing some kids around dogs. My parents neighbors come to mind. The parents believe any dog that comes into their home should have to deal with kids and their unpredictable behavior. For instance - giving the dog a toy - then snatching it back - slamming into the dogs while running full force - squeezing the dogs face for kisses and on and on.
> 
> Whatever. *I'm not drinking that Kool-Aid. *I bet a lot of breeders on here who breed exceptional dogs would not want one of their pups in that constant environment - a free for all just because it's a child.


:thumbup:
the mind set that dogs should tolerate it all just because they are dogs is pervasive and persistent to the dogs' detriment 

rocket the girl did not scratch the dogs head, she put her face down and tried to kiss the dog which she had been told multiple times to not do


----------



## RocketDog

Blanketback said:


> RocketDog, why are these kids not learning what you're teaching them? Why waste your time, and theirs? Maybe they need to meet someone who's had their life changed by a dog bite.


They do learn, most of them. But the point is: I teach this to grade schoolers. Kids 12 and under. Some learn faster than others. BUT THEY'RE KIDS. Funny, two high school girls were killed this fall in a car that was speeding to get air. No alcohol or drugs, just speeding. It was devastating to the entire high school. The whole community, in fact, including other high schools. Do you think that this means none of those teens will ever speed again?


----------



## Saphire

Courtney said:


> I bet a lot of breeders on here who breed exceptional dogs would not want one of their pups in that constant environment - a free for all just because it's a child.


Buyers will allow breeders to see and know what they want seen and known. I don't envy the job breeders have trying to assess buyers and what kind of home they offer.


----------



## RocketDog

my boy diesel said:


> :thumbup:
> the mind set that dogs should tolerate it all just because they are dogs is pervasive and persistent to the dogs' detriment



Once again: The OP has not stated that this dog was asked to tolerate anything other than NORMAL PETTING AND FAMILY AFFECTION. He never once said the girl pulled, hit, teased, punched or in any other way treated this dog disrespectfully. They had rules, they had training, they tried. They may have failed on management a little, but this was a freaking family member-- not a stranger! 

Victim shaming.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Irrelevant.

There was more then just the daughter 'petting' the dog here and that was addressed and I agreed with Nikon22Shooter.





RocketDog said:


> The OP said the dog was never 'bonded', not that it was aggressive towards them. If you think that in 5 years, starting with a puppy and an 8 year old girl, she's never petted that dog before, you're living in a different world than I am. Do you have kids? Have you seen how kids act? How do you pet your dog? Do you avoid their face area at all times?
> 
> I'd bet not. It is unreasonable to expect her not to want to pet the dog that is part of her family. If you do have kids, how do your kids act with your dog? I'd venture to say they have petted them while down on their level.


----------



## nikon22shooter

RocketDog said:


> Once again: The OP has not stated that this dog was asked to tolerate anything other than NORMAL PETTING AND FAMILY AFFECTION. He never once said the girl pulled, hit, teased, punched or in any other way treated this dog disrespectfully. They had rules, they had training, they tried. They may have failed on management a little, but this was a freaking family member-- not a stranger!
> 
> Victim shaming.


No they failed big time.

If a dog doesn't bond with anyone "heres your sign".


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

If this keeps up 'family' dogs will be a thing of the past. Problem solved.



RocketDog said:


> Once again: The OP has not stated that this dog was asked to tolerate anything other than NORMAL PETTING AND FAMILY AFFECTION. He never once said the girl pulled, hit, teased, punched or in any other way treated this dog disrespectfully. They had rules, they had training, they tried. They may have failed on management a little, but this was a freaking family member-- not a stranger!
> 
> Victim shaming.


----------



## RocketDog

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Irrelevant.
> 
> There was more then just the daughter 'petting' the dog here and that was addressed and I agreed with Nikon22Shooter.



What is irrelevant? The question whether you have kids? How you pet your dog? I don't believe so. It's easy to say what others should do when 1) You have no experience in the arena or 2) you do differently than you advise. 

I would bet my life you have kissed your dog on it's head.


----------



## nikon22shooter

RocketDog said:


> What is irrelevant? The question whether you have kids? How you pet your dog? I don't believe so. It's easy to say what others should do when 1) You have no experience in the arena or 2) you do differently than you advise.
> 
> I would bet my life you have kissed your dog on it's head.


And I'm sure his dog is bonded to him. Therefore your questioning is irrelevant.


----------



## donkeyturtle

RocketDog said:


> Once again: The OP has not stated that this dog was asked to tolerate anything other than NORMAL PETTING AND FAMILY AFFECTION. He never once said the girl pulled, hit, teased, punched or in any other way treated this dog disrespectfully. They had rules, they had training, they tried. They may have failed on management a little, but this was a freaking family member-- not a stranger!
> 
> Victim shaming.


This is absolutely true, and to address some of Gwenhwyfair's and others comments. My daughter did not do anything that she hasn't done before. She often pets Bella tries to hug her and kiss her --- as do I. The reason I’ve told her not to get in her face, and try to get her not to touch Bella at all, is because Bella is always moaning about it. However, Bella often moans when my wife pets her too, the same moan. I have heard low growls before, like if the vet wants to check her temp, which are different. 
Bella is not always unloving, sometimes she'll want to lick our face, and for us to pet her -- but there's that underlying moaning or tail between the legs that always unsettles me. Sometimes she'll wag her tail and push my hand for me to pet her, but then we I do the tail stops wagging and she'll moan. She often jumps out of the way in fear when I'm walking down the hallway. We have a cat too, and the GS and the cat like to play. Bella will get on her back and let the cat attack her. She is gentle with the cat. Bella seems to love women. ----- 
There was no warning before biting Abby, and Abby didn’t do anything unusual or threatening, nothing that she hasn’t done before. Regardless, I have to say she definitely has issues and is unstable, anxious and nervous, is not suitable for a family dog, is not manageable in a loving home who has put a lot of time and effort into her. Not only did we invest a lot of time in the dog, we also researched before getting her, took classes, etc… I should have done something about it years ago but couldn't bring myself to do it because of how devoted my wife was to her.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Well said.

I am not unsympathetic to the little girl, but she, per her own father's admission in the very first post, knew better.

As to your last point, another reason to not become a breeder! 



Courtney said:


> I agree. Some kids shouldn't even have access to a gold fish let alone a dog.
> 
> Of course what happened to this girl is _awful. _Some don't walk away from a dog bite without having reconstructive surgery. Emotional scars will last forever for some - always nervous around dogs. I have no idea if the dog in the OP's post should be put to sleep. I will never comment on such things.
> 
> I cringe when seeing some kids around dogs. My parents neighbors come to mind. The parents believe any dog that comes into their home should have to deal with kids and their unpredictable behavior. For instance - giving the dog a toy - then snatching it back - slamming into the dogs while running full force - squeezing the dogs face for kisses and on and on.
> 
> Whatever. I'm not drinking that Kool-Aid. I bet a lot of breeders on here who breed exceptional dogs would not want one of their pups in that constant environment - a free for all just because it's a child.


----------



## RocketDog

Wow. There's a lot of glass houses in this thread.


----------



## Blanketback

Maybe you'd all like to argue with Karen Pryor? Get her to retract this page?
Dog Bite Prevention Week: Dogs Don't Like Hugs | Karen Pryor Clicker Training


----------



## RocketDog

nikon22shooter said:


> And I'm sure his dog is bonded to him. Therefore your questioning is irrelevant.


A dog is often 'bonded' to one person more than others. But a dog that lives in a family should realize who they are and not be prone to biting. My dog is my dog. He always has to know where I am. He listens to me much better than anyone else-- really, perfectly to me but not so perfectly to the kids. But he is affectionate and loving to the rest of my family, including my kids.


----------



## crackem

nikon22shooter said:


> No they failed big time.
> 
> If a dog doesn't bond with anyone "heres your sign".


I think you're being a tad bit unfair.

I often wonder if others live by the same standards they hold everyone else to????? Everyone has "failed" to be perfect in the management of their dogs. Thankfully most of us have never had that result in any issues or harm to anyone else.


Some fail more than others and when it becomes gross negligence, then jump on, in the meantime try and recognize something for what it is.


----------



## RocketDog




----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Correct.

Additionally if I made a made a mistake and one of my dogs bit me I wouldn't PTS the dog unless there was a pattern of increasingly extreme aggression. (such was the case with a friend whose golden had brain cancer. at first thought the problem was behavioural, after a scan brain tumor was found and the dog was PTS)



nikon22shooter said:


> And I'm sure his dog is bonded to him. Therefore your questioning is irrelevant.


----------



## shepherdmom

Blanketback said:


> Maybe you'd all like to argue with Karen Pryor? Get her to retract this page?
> Dog Bite Prevention Week: Dogs Don't Like Hugs | Karen Pryor Clicker Training


She is entitled to her opinion even if its WRONG!


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Fair and your earlier post was fair as well, but there's also a lot of minimization of the other side of this as well.

Personally, I don't like the extreme that dogs have to be 100% kid proof, 100% of the time no matter what and if they aren't they are automatically 'nerve bags'. That is where the pendulum swings too far the other way.



crackem said:


> I think you're being a tad bit unfair.
> 
> I often wonder if others live by the same standards they hold everyone else to????? Everyone has "failed" to be perfect in the management of their dogs. Thankfully most of us have never had that result in any issues or harm to anyone else.
> 
> 
> Some fail more than others and when it becomes gross negligence, then jump on, in the meantime try and recognize something for what it is.


----------



## RocketDog

Maybe we should have the graduation age be at gradeschool level. Since everybody thinks kids are done learning and they're fully mature at 13, why do they need to finish or even go to high school?


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Including glass dog houses.........



RocketDog said:


> Wow. There's a lot of glass houses in this thread.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

:thumbup:

There's actually a lot of good information and push back on child/dog safety out there. Good to see!



Blanketback said:


> Maybe you'd all like to argue with Karen Pryor? Get her to retract this page?
> Dog Bite Prevention Week: Dogs Don't Like Hugs | Karen Pryor Clicker Training


----------



## Saphire

donkeyturtle said:


> This is absolutely true, and to address some of Gwenhwyfair's and others comments. My daughter did not do anything that she hasn't done before. She often pets Bella tries to hug her and kiss her --- as do I. The reason I’ve told her not to get in her face, and try to get her not to touch Bella at all, is because Bella is always moaning about it. However, Bella often moans when my wife pets her too, the same moan. I have heard low growls before, like if the vet wants to check her temp, which are different.
> Bella is not always unloving, sometimes she'll want to lick our face, and for us to pet her -- but there's that underlying moaning or tail between the legs that always unsettles me. Sometimes she'll wag her tail and push my hand for me to pet her, but then we I do the tail stops wagging and she'll moan. She often jumps out of the way in fear when I'm walking down the hallway. We have a cat too, and the GS and the cat like to play. Bella will get on her back and let the cat attack her. She is gentle with the cat. Bella seems to love women. -----
> There was no warning before biting Abby, and Abby didn’t do anything unusual or threatening, nothing that she hasn’t done before. Regardless, I have to say she definitely has issues and is unstable, anxious and nervous, is not suitable for a family dog, is not manageable in a loving home who has put a lot of time and effort into her. Not only did we invest a lot of time in the dog, we also researched before getting her, took classes, etc… I should have done something about it years ago but couldn't bring myself to do it because of how devoted my wife was to her.


To the OP...I commend you for being so very honest and I hope you understand where so many different points of view come from. They come from a wide variety of people all with different life experiences. In the end we all come together with a passion and love for animals.

Many things went wrong with your dog and family and without living it ourselves we try to fill in the blanks.

My worry here is for your daughter. For her to feel responsible after repeated behavior from both you and her trying so hard to bond with your dog is not fair in my opinion. You yourself state you made repeated attempts of affection, have watched your daughter do the same until finally she is injured. If you yourself did not refrain from showing this dpg affection, how do you expect your 13 year old not to do the same?

Please move past this and help her to understand this is not her fault and that this poor dog is just not right, never has been. As a parent myself I would apologize to her for allowing this to go on so long and to the point where she was hurt.


----------



## Eiros

Im not sure how anyone can insist that because their dog is a certain way, that all dogs should behave a certain way. I think it's awesome if someone has a dog that loves affection, but isn't it reasonable to think that not all dogs are this way? Isn't it reasonable to think that not all dogs have the same tolerance level? Of course, a family environment is probably not the best for a dog that won't tolerate affection, and it's not anyone's business to place blame on anyone when an accident happens. In general though, I think we should respect the boundaries of an animal and know well enough what they are. 

I kiss my dog all the time, pet my dog, whatever. I wouldnt do this to a dog that didnt welcome my affection, and I think it's shortsighted to think that because "my dog" welcomes it, that all dogs should be assumed to be the same way.


----------



## RocketDog

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Fair and your earlier post was fair as well, but there's also a lot of minimization of the other side of this as well.
> 
> Personally, I don't like the extreme that dogs have to be 100% kid proof, 100% of the time no matter what and if they aren't they are automatically 'nerve bags'. That is where the pendulum swings too far the other way.


You know, if this was a party with 12 13-year-olds running around I would agree with you. I would agree that most or many dogs would not be able to handle that. But this was a household interaction with no one at home on a quiet evening. You want to minimize the fact that the dog is unstable.


----------



## nikon22shooter

crackem said:


> I think you're being a tad bit unfair.
> 
> I often wonder if others live by the same standards they hold everyone else to????? Everyone has "failed" to be perfect in the management of their dogs. Thankfully most of us have never had that result in any issues or harm to anyone else.
> 
> 
> Some fail more than others and when it becomes gross negligence, then jump on, in the meantime try and recognize something for what it is.


A tad, but thats only to make a point. I kiss and even play bite my dogs (3) faces all the time. Not once has one of them bit with out of aggression. Ever.

Have they gotten rough and gave me a nice cut or scratch, sure.

What happened to the OP, its a tragic accident that could of been avoided. Dogs don't bite for no reason. Especially for just "petting" them.

"You can only pick on that fat kid so much before he snaps".

I'm not saying the girl was messing with the dog, who knows. But she did something that dog didn't like and 'knew' better bc she was warned on 'multiple' occasions. So there was always the thought the dog could snap, otherwise there would never of been a problem for getting in his face.


----------



## Jack's Dad

We are not supposed to talk about what family dogs should be as opposed to what they really are.

However, it's ok to talk about how children should be and not how they really are.

It is relevant to me if people have or have not had children.


----------



## RocketDog

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Including glass dog houses.........


Oh I almost missed this little gem. (which doesn't make any sense anyway. Glass doghouses? I'm not the one throwing stones pretending I live in a glass house ) And you know what since you're so bent on avoiding the subject, I'm going to go ahead and say you don't have kids, yet you know that a kid should be able to resist affection for dog at 13.


----------



## nikon22shooter

RocketDog said:


> Oh I almost missed this little gem. (which doesn't make any sense anyway. Glass doghouses? I'm not the one throwing stones pretending I live in a glass house ) And you know what since you're so bent on avoiding the subject, I'm going to go ahead and say you don't have kids, yet you know that a kid should be able to resist affection for dog at 13.


Your avoiding the whole fact that she shouldn't of been in the dogs face to begin with.

For every action there is a reaction.


----------



## Blanketback

What does age have to do with anything? I work with idiots who drive drunk, repeatedly. They'll only stop when they're injured so badly they can't operate a vehicle.


----------



## RocketDog

I'm not avoiding anything. The fact is, the OP in his last post indicated that the dog is clearly nervy. Being frightened by someone walking down the hall is not a of a stable dog. Did they fail on management to some degree, yes; however-- what are they supposed to do in reality? Keep the dog crated at all times? Should they have put the dog to sleep before this happened? People are jumping all over him for entertaining the thought now after a bite. If they had put the dog to sleep before the bite, they would've been horrible monsters. I think they did the best they could trying to live with a dog that has its own demons.


----------



## Jack's Dad

nikon22shooter said:


> Your avoiding the whole fact that she shouldn't of been in the dogs face to begin with.
> 
> For every action there is a reaction.


If a family member can't get close to a dogs face after living in the same house for five years, the dog has nerve issues. It's the dog.


----------



## shepherdmom

nikon22shooter said:


> Your avoiding the whole fact that she shouldn't of been in the dogs face to begin with.
> 
> For every action there is a reaction.


Your avoiding the fact that the dog should not have reacted that way even if she was in the dogs face.


----------



## nikon22shooter

Jack's Dad said:


> If a family member can't get close to a dogs face after living in the same house for five years, the dog has nerve issues. It's the dog.


That is irrelevant. The dog has its problems. Everyone was aware of said problems. The girl was warned over and over about the DOGS PROBLEMS. The girl IGNORED it and pretended it was okay to get in the dogs face. The girl is 13 years old. Plenty old to know better.

Does that make it okay for the dog? NO. The dog has problems.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

You're amplifying by trying to compare to unrelated situations.

As to this particular case:

Clearly there were different issues here with the dog, who and how the dog bonded with the family, training or lack thereof, feelings of 'frustration' and such thrown into the mix since they got the dog.

I think this 'could' have been avoided and for that reason the humans are the biggest part of the 'fail' in this particular scenario. And to the OPs credit he's admitted he/his family could have done better.

Based on the information presented I think the dog should be given the benefit of the doubt and not be PTS at this point** because it's not part of an escalating pattern of aggression but rather the daughter put her face into the dog's when *per the OP*, she should not have.

*Note* that is my reasoning and I've not used any absolutes in my above comments......... 





RocketDog said:


> You know, if this was a party with 12 13-year-olds running around I would agree with you. I would agree that most or many dogs would not be able to handle that. But this was a household interaction with no one at home on a quiet evening. You want to minimize the fact that the dog is unstable.


----------



## RocketDog

Jack's Dad said:


> *We are not supposed to talk about what family dogs should be as opposed to what they really are.
> 
> However, it's ok to talk about how children should be and not how they really are.*
> 
> It is relevant to me if people have or have not had children.



Oh snap!


----------



## nikon22shooter

shepherdmom said:


> Your avoiding the fact that the dog should not have reacted that way even if she was in the dogs face.


Your avoiding the fact I never said the dog didn't have problems. It clearly does.


----------



## shepherdmom

nikon22shooter said:


> Your avoiding the fact I never said the dog didn't have problems. It clearly does.


A dog that unstable needs to be put down.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

You're ignoring the stats that show a LOT of dogs react this way. 

There's no evidence to indicate that the average run of the mill mix breeds, labs, goldens, beagles, shi tzus, doodles and what not that are owned by the millions of families across this country are having some sort of collective doggy nervous break down.

Hence the various and numerous dog related professional organizations and trainers that state - don't put your face in a dog's face.



shepherdmom said:


> Your avoiding the fact that the dog should not have reacted that way even if she was in the dogs face.


----------



## Blanketback

"But I _want_ to!"


----------



## RocketDog

To the OP:

As someone said earlier in this thread, your posts have been rational,intelligent, and well thought out. You don't sound like someone who is acting out of emotion or irrationality or rushing to judgment. You sound like a very intelligent dog owner who has a gut feeling. This is not an easy position to be put in and I don't envy you at all.

No one here can tell you what to do because no one here is there. But I would urge you to listen to your gut. Whether that means rehoming him to someone without kids, with a lot of experience who lives away from society and is happy with that or whether that means putting him to sleep in a kind manner so that he doesn't have to suffer through A rehoming, another bite, a quarantine, and being put to sleep at the shelter by state agencies. Maybe a behaviorist will even be able to help change things and you'll end up keeping the dog for another five years and this was a happy ending. Either way, I wish you the best of luck.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

YES. It is O.K. to talk about 13 year old children who per the admission of their own father, knew better.

At some point we humans must be smarter then the dogs....

btw the argument that this always happens because dogs always have 'poor nerves' is a logical fallacy of the extreme.



Jack's Dad said:


> We are not supposed to talk about what family dogs should be as opposed to what they really are.
> 
> However, it's ok to talk about how children should be and not how they really are.
> 
> It is relevant to me if people have or have not had children.


----------



## nikon22shooter

shepherdmom said:


> A dog that unstable needs to be put down.


There are no history of bites, there was one quick snap and that was it.

The girl did not deserve it, but she knew better and she 'provoked' the dog.

Your slightly overreacting by saying the dog needs put down. Thats a little extreme since it was just a freak accident.


----------



## my boy diesel

Eiros said:


> *Im not sure how anyone can insist that because their dog is a certain way, that all dogs should behave a certain way.* I think it's awesome if someone has a dog that loves affection, but isn't it reasonable to think that not all dogs are this way? Isn't it reasonable to think that not all dogs have the same tolerance level? Of course, a family environment is probably not the best for a dog that won't tolerate affection, and it's not anyone's business to place blame on anyone when an accident happens. In general though, I think we should respect the boundaries of an animal and know well enough what they are.
> 
> I kiss my dog all the time, pet my dog, whatever. I wouldnt do this to a dog that didnt welcome my affection, and I think it's shortsighted to think that because "my dog" welcomes it, that all dogs should be assumed to be the same way.


finally a voice of reason!
and then further insist all dogs who fail to be like *their* dogs be taken "out of the gene pool"


----------



## donkeyturtle

Saphire said:


> To the OP...I commend you for being so very honest and I hope you understand where so many different points of view come from. They come from a wide variety of people all with different life experiences. In the end we all come together with a passion and love for animals.
> 
> Many things went wrong with your dog and family and without living it ourselves we try to fill in the blanks.
> 
> My worry here is for your daughter. For her to feel responsible after repeated behavior from both you and her trying so hard to bond with your dog is not fair in my opinion. You yourself state you made repeated attempts of affection, have watched your daughter do the same until finally she is injured. If you yourself did not refrain from showing this dpg affection, how do you expect your 13 year old not to do the same?
> 
> Please move past this and help her to understand this is not her fault and that this poor dog is just not right, never has been. As a parent myself I would apologize to her for allowing this to go on so long and to the point where she was hurt.


Thanks for your comment. I agree, you are absolutely right. I actually have apologized to her for letting it go on so long, and I'm lucky it didn't happen to me first. I'm not done talking to her about this, and rest assured I will do all I can to make sure she doesn't have any lingering guilt or responsible feelings. She did not deserve to be bitten, and this dog has issues and she knows it. When I think about it, it was never really reasonable for me to try and have her not touch Bella - it was a family dog. It was just something where I let my wife's devotion to the dog stop me from taking action when I should have. We will move past this, and I feel much better about it now.


----------



## donkeyturtle

RocketDog said:


> To the OP:
> 
> As someone said earlier in this thread, your posts have been rational,intelligent, and well thought out. You don't sound like someone who is acting out of emotion or irrationality or rushing to judgment. You sound like a very intelligent dog owner who has a gut feeling. This is not an easy position to be put in and I don't envy you at all.
> 
> No one here can tell you what to do because no one here is there. But I would urge you to listen to your gut. Whether that means rehoming him to someone without kids, with a lot of experience who lives away from society and is happy with that or whether that means putting him to sleep in a kind manner so that he doesn't have to suffer through A rehoming, another bite, a quarantine, and being put to sleep at the shelter by state agencies. Maybe a behaviorist will even be able to help change things and you'll end up keeping the dog for another five years and this was a happy ending. Either way, I wish you the best of luck.


Thank you RocketDog, I appreciate your sage advice in this thread, and I'm feeling 100% better!


----------



## LoveEcho

RocketDog said:


> To the OP:
> 
> As someone said earlier in this thread, your posts have been rational,intelligent, and well thought out. You don't sound like someone who is acting out of emotion or irrationality or rushing to judgment. You sound like a very intelligent dog owner who has a gut feeling. This is not an easy position to be put in and I don't envy you at all.
> 
> No one here can tell you what to do because no one here is there. But I would urge you to listen to your gut. Whether that means rehoming him to someone without kids, with a lot of experience who lives away from society and is happy with that or whether that means putting him to sleep in a kind manner so that he doesn't have to suffer through A rehoming, another bite, a quarantine, and being put to sleep at the shelter by state agencies. Maybe a behaviorist will even be able to help change things and you'll end up keeping the dog for another five years and this was a happy ending. Either way, I wish you the best of luck.


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

So sorry you're finding yourself in this scenario  There is no right answer, really- except to go with your gut.


----------



## bga

Jack's Dad said:


> We are not supposed to talk about what family dogs should be as opposed to what they really are.
> 
> However, it's ok to talk about how children should be and not how they really are.
> 
> It is relevant to me if people have or have not had children.



Game. Set. match.

He's got you apologists with this double standard .... he really does

Thank-you Jack's dad, for injecting some common sense into this discussion.


----------



## shepherdmom

Gwenhwyfair said:


> You're ignoring the stats that show a LOT of dogs react this way.
> 
> That doesn't make it right!
> 
> There's no evidence to indicate that the average run of the mill mix breeds, labs, goldens, beagles, shi tzus, doodles and what not that are owned by the millions of families across this country are having some sort of collective doggy nervous break down.


Where did I say they were? I said this dog needs to be put down. Nice red herring fallacy though.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

I think that's part of the reason my Smitty was stuck in a rescue for so long. He's an independent spirit. He's not a 'snuggly' dog at all. Now that I think about it, though he's never aggressive to kids, he's always got this open mouthed, tongue lolling out happy look to him, he doesn't like to be grabbed and hugged even by me and I don't do it at all. Instinctually I don't get in his face where Ilda will crawl into my lap and demand (if I let her) physical affection.

Yet he's a great dog that if put with the wrong family may have been misunderstood and run into a similar situation as here. Never really though about it because I just accepted Smitty as he is. Good posts.

It must be real hard for folks in rescues too........



my boy diesel said:


> finally a voice of reason!
> and then further insist all dogs who fail to be like *their* dogs be taken "out of the gene pool"


----------



## nikon22shooter

shepherdmom said:


> Where did I say they were? I said this dog needs to be put down. Nice red herring fallacy though.


SAVE the WORLD, think of the CHILDREN.

Typical soccer mom haha


----------



## bga

nikon22shooter said:


> There are no history of bites, there was one quick snap and that was it.
> 
> The girl did not deserve it, but she knew better and she 'provoked' the dog.
> 
> Your slightly overreacting by saying the dog needs put down. Thats a little extreme since it was just a freak accident.


I'd bet you don't have kids .... and if you do, I feel really really bad for them... It would just be heart warming to have little Johnny break a leg doing something he shouldn't be doing and have you smugly proclaim, "Well Johnny, it's your own fault. You knew better!" 

I reject your viewpoint entirely. I'm done here.


----------



## gsdsar

Jumping in late to this party. 

OP, no matter what you decide, I am very sorry you are in this position. Your daughter did not deserve to be bitten. Full stop. Your daughter should not have to continue living in a home with dog that has proven aggression towards her. Your daughter and her safety must be the number one on your priority list. There can be no argument. 

Anyone suggesting that the dog should remain in the home is ludicrous. Whether you euthanize or rehome. The dog should not stay with the family. I don't really care WHY the dog bit, bad nerves, bad child, anxiety, a butterfly farted in Japan, irrelevant. The dog is not safe in your house and poses a proven threat to your daughter. 

I don't have children. But that does not mean I am going to lay blame on them if my dog bites them. They are children. A 13 yo child is PHYSIOLOGICALLY incapable of understanding all possible outcomes of their actions. Ever asked a kid "why did you do that?" And gotten "I don't know". It's not being a smart Alec, they ACTUALLY don't know why they do things. Am I saying that children should not he punished or held accountable, no. What I am saying is that the child cannot be held responsible. Especially not for doing something very natural with a family pet. The end. 

This dog is not safe to remain with your family. 

I wish you luck. You sound like a very caring parent. This is not an easy decision. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## my boy diesel

bqa
i have kids
and if my dog nips one of them when my kid does something 
i WARNED them not to do
it is their fault
silly me
accountability is huge in my book

ps you guys are gonna be very very busy putting down all the dogs that shouldnt be in homes and all the dogs that bit kids when kids did crap they were not supposed to do


----------



## nikon22shooter

bga said:


> I'd bet you don't have kids .... and if you do, I feel really really bad for them... It would just be heart warming to have little Johnny break a leg doing something he shouldn't be doing and have you smugly proclaim, "Well Johnny, it's your own fault. You knew better!"
> 
> I reject your viewpoint entirely. I'm done here.



There's a difference between sticking your face where it doesn't belong and breaking your leg by falling. Nice try though but you fail entirely.

Oh no! Not rejection!!!!! Lol. Dude it's the internet, get use to it.


----------



## LoveEcho

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I think that's part of the reason my Smitty was stuck in a rescue for so long. He's an independent spirit. He's not a 'snuggly' dog at all. Now that I think about it, though he's never aggressive to kids, he's always got this open mouthed, tongue lolling out happy look to him, he doesn't like to be grabbed and hugged even by me and I don't do it at all. Instinctually I don't get in his face where Ilda will crawl into my lap and demand (if I let her) physical affection.
> 
> Yet he's a great dog that if put with the wrong family may have been misunderstood and run into a similar situation as here. Never really though about it because I just accepted Smitty as he is. Good posts.
> 
> It must be real hard for folks in rescues too........



This is why I find this discussion so fascinating- this is a place many of us could have easily found ourselves at some point or another. I'm rather pleased that (until now) the discussion was so productive... I learned a lot, at least. I don't have teenagers, so it's hard to understand that POV. I have a dog who doesn't fit the "perfect dog" mold, so it's interesting to understand that POV. I think this thread has made some of us evaluate a lot of our own beliefs and what we would do in this scenario. 

Guys, with the smart comments back and forth- don't degrade what was actually a productive discussion from differing points of view and experiences... that's a rare thing on this board


----------



## RocketDog

As I just said somewhere else, teenagers often make worse decisions than children around the ages of eight or nine. They're growing so fast and there's an introduction of hormones that completely offsets any type of balance. Someone asked what age had to do with it. Well, when adult continues to make bad decisions (such as the drunk driving that was mentioned), two things are shown: one is that people sometimes are just idiots. Two, that even adults make mistakes and don't make rational decisions. 

When a child is a teenager there is no frontal cortex action going on. Expecting them to make rational decisions is foolhardy. You hope, you practice, you preach. But in the end, the majority of the DUH moments happen in teenage years. It's also the most fatal time in raising a child.


----------



## RocketDog

gsdsar said:


> Jumping in late to this party.
> 
> OP, no matter what you decide, I am very sorry you are in this position. Your daughter did not deserve to be bitten. Full stop. Your daughter should not have to continue living in a home with dog that has proven aggression towards her. Your daughter and her safety must be the number one on your priority list. There can be no argument.
> 
> Anyone suggesting that the dog should remain in the home is ludicrous. Whether you euthanize or rehome. The dog should not stay with the family. I don't really care WHY the dog bit, bad nerves, bad child, anxiety, a butterfly farted in Japan, irrelevant. The dog is not safe in your house and poses a proven threat to your daughter.
> 
> I don't have children. But that does not mean I am going to lay blame on them if my dog bites them. They are children. A 13 yo child is PHYSIOLOGICALLY incapable of understanding all possible outcomes of their actions. Ever asked a kid "why did you do that?" And gotten "I don't know". It's not being a smart Alec, they ACTUALLY don't know why they do things. Am I saying that children should not he punished or held accountable, no. What I am saying is that the child cannot be held responsible. Especially not for doing something very natural with a family pet. The end.
> 
> This dog is not safe to remain with your family.
> 
> I wish you luck. You sound like a very caring parent. This is not an easy decision.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Excellent post, as usual.


----------



## shepherdmom

nikon22shooter said:


> There are no history of bites, there was one quick snap and that was it.
> 
> The girl did not deserve it, but she knew better and she 'provoked' the dog.
> 
> Your slightly overreacting by saying the dog needs put down. Thats a little extreme since it was just a freak accident.


Wow go back and re read this entire thread again. It was no freak accident. This dog grew up with the kid, lived with this family for 5 years, never bonded, always skittish and then one day freaked out. The dog is not right. If you want to take on a dog like that go for it. I doubt anyone else will. There are not enough homes for all the stable wonderful family dogs in rescue. Just how many people do you think are out there willing to take on a unstable dog with a bite history? and do you think the dog would be happy losing the only home and family she has ever known? Do you really think placing an already skittish dog that was unable to bond with her first pack into a new situation is going to improve life for the dog?


----------



## misslesleedavis1

GSDSAR is correct, i got my lip ripped in half at age 7 for grabbing my dogs butt, i dont know why the heck i did it, but i did it, i really was not thinking about the outcome of doing it. Even though i was brought up in a home that enforced the dog rules.

My parents decided to not put the dog to sleep, Finny never bit me again and i never grabbed his butt again


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

See, that's what happened with me too. I did something stupid, I got lectured, sent to my room and it didn't happen again.

Not to say the dog in this case should stay in the home for sure but .... accountability is important.



misslesleedavis1 said:


> GSDSAR is correct, i got my lip ripped in half at age 7 for grabbing my dogs butt, i dont know why the heck i did it, but i did it, i really was not thinking about the outcome of doing it. Even though i was brought up in a home that enforced the dog rules.
> 
> My parents decided to not put the dog to sleep, Finny never bit me again and i never grabbed his butt again


----------



## Blanketback

I think the dog bonded just fine, except only with the wife. Our family dog was like this too, bonding with my mom. I was bitten by our dog a few times, too.


----------



## nikon22shooter

shepherdmom said:


> Wow go back and re read this entire thread again. It was no freak accident. This dog grew up with the kid, lived with this family for 5 years, never bonded, always skittish and then one day freaked out. The dog is not right. If you want to take on a dog like that go for it. I doubt anyone else will. There are not enough homes for all the stable wonderful family dogs in rescue. Just how many people do you think are out there willing to take on a unstable dog with a bite history? and do you think the dog would be happy losing the only home and family she has ever known? Do you really think placing an already skittish dog that was unable to bond with her first pack into a new situation is going to improve life for the dog?


Thats actually the definition of a freak accident.

They had the dog for FIVE years with NO ACCIDENTS. Then one day, BAM. Accident. 

Thats what a freak accident is! WOW hahahhaha


----------



## LoveEcho

Gwenhwyfair said:


> See, that's what happened with me too. I did something stupid, I got lectured, sent to my room and it didn't happen again.
> 
> Not to say the dog in this case should stay in the home for sure but .... accountability is important.


I'm not getting the impression that the daughter hasn't been talked to about the stupidity of her actions. OP sounds like a pretty rational guy and a good parent- I'm sure she knows exactly what she did wrong, and what the consequences are. I'm sure this will be an important lesson for her moving forward (I don't mean that at all in a "I hope this haunts her!" sort of way, I mean it in the "there is a valuable lesson to be learned from this for personal growth" sort of way). I think that, moving forward, if the family decides to get another dog (I'm thrilled to hear that the daughter still wants this), there will have been valuable lessons learned from this experience in terms of what to look for in a dog, and how to properly manage any issues that might arise.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

:thumbup::thumbup: Agreed.




LoveEcho said:


> This is why I find this discussion so fascinating- this is a place many of us could have easily found ourselves at some point or another. I'm rather pleased that (until now) the discussion was so productive... I learned a lot, at least. I don't have teenagers, so it's hard to understand that POV. I have a dog who doesn't fit the "perfect dog" mold, so it's interesting to understand that POV. I think this thread has made some of us evaluate a lot of our own beliefs and what we would do in this scenario.
> 
> Guys, with the smart comments back and forth- don't degrade what was actually a productive discussion from differing points of view and experiences... that's a rare thing on this board


----------



## nikon22shooter

100%!!!


----------



## my boy diesel

Gwenhwyfair said:


> See, that's what happened with me too. I did something stupid, I got lectured, sent to my room and it didn't happen again.
> 
> Not to say the dog in this case should stay in the home for sure but .... accountability is important.


i was bitten at 3yrs of age
i have no memory of the event but my parents tell me about it
strange mutt showed up at my grandparents and apparently was a grumpy or growly thing
we went to visit g-parents and they told me repeatedly not to be around or 
interact with the dog and on the last day
when everyone was distracted i leaned over to kiss the doggy goodbye
got bit puncturing bottom lip and a puncture under my chin 
i don't know if the dog lived or died but guessing it lived
and it was my fault for not listening
now i was 3y old and have a lifetime scar
but i can safely say it was my own fault and probably that of the humans for not supervising me 
my mom said i told her, after the stitches were in place
i still want a dog, mommy!

not sure what the point of that was 
but i wouldnt have blamed them if they kept the dog and didn't put it to sleep


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Fair enough! 

BUT... on the macro side of this all dogs who do not want to be hugged and have people in their face (including family members) are not automatically nerve bag cases. 





LoveEcho said:


> I'm not getting the impression that the daughter hasn't been talked to about the stupidity of her actions. OP sounds like a pretty rational guy and a good parent- I'm sure she knows exactly what she did wrong, and what the consequences are. I'm sure this will be an important lesson for her moving forward (I don't mean that at all in a "I hope this haunts her!" sort of way, I mean it in the "there is a valuable lesson to be learned from this for personal growth" sort of way). I think that, moving forward, if the family decides to get another dog (I'm thrilled to hear that the daughter still wants this), there will have been valuable lessons learned from this experience in terms of what to look for in a dog, and how to properly manage any issues that might arise.


----------



## carmspack

and then further insist all dogs who fail to be like *their* dogs be taken "out of the gene pool"
------------ and by the way no one said this 

GENE pool does need , like any other pool , regular maintenance. Yes it does have to be improved.

How many threads recently have started with .... I saw this pitiful shy pup and I just had to have it, safe it , and brought him home , and now many months later the situation is near unbearable , wrought with problems , which may not be fixable because , using the test pilot analogy again, the plane has been pushed to its limits of design . Can't do it . 

Life at home , understanding and respecting them as DOGS , guidance while growing , fair treatment and policies which are in the best interest of the dog ,all have to be improved. Not having dogs as tools as a means to an end , a glorification of ego - yes that has to happen . 

We have a huge spectrum of expectations on this forum. Hollywood fluff and fur babies to being proud that their dog will let no one approach them . Some where in the middle --


----------



## RocketDog

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Fair enough!
> 
> BUT... on the macro side of this all dogs who do not want to be hugged and have people in their face (including family members) are not automatically nerve bag cases.


OP did not come on here to discuss whether other dogs are nerve cases. He came in to discuss his. And with the information he provided further, it does appear that the dog has definite nerve issues.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

I dunno, since you were only 3 year old I'd cut you some slack on that.  

I think you've done a good job advocating for the dog's side of this too. 

As my dad, who obviously I really respect, taught me fundamentally, animals deserve respect too (not to humanize them) but they are living creatures.






my boy diesel said:


> i was bitten at 3yrs of age
> i have no memory of the event but my parents tell me about it
> strange mutt showed up at my grandparents and apparently was a grumpy or growly thing
> we went to visit g-parents and they told me repeatedly not to be around or
> interact with the dog and on the last day
> when everyone was distracted i leaned over to kiss the doggy goodbye
> got bit puncturing bottom lip and a puncture under my chin
> i don't know if the dog lived or died but guessing it lived
> and it was my fault for not listening
> now i was 3y old and have a lifetime scar
> but i can safely say it was my own fault and probably that of the humans for not supervising me
> my mom said i told her, after the stitches were in place
> i still want a dog, mommy!
> 
> not sure what the point of that was
> but i wouldnt have blamed them if they kept the dog and didn't put it to sleep


----------



## nikon22shooter

RocketDog said:


> OP did not come on here to discuss whether other dogs are nerve cases. He came in to discuss his. And with the information he provided further, it does appear that the dog has definite nerve issues.



So lets go hug it hahahhaha


----------



## my boy diesel

u took that completely out of context carmen
the gene pool is laughable since breeding dogs is out of control 
in every way shape and form with regards to pets
but dont spay or neuter anything, ever or you're killing them 
see, i view spay and neuter as cleaning the gene pool
since few owners can be responsible about their pets reproductive lives
all i can do is shake my head


----------



## misslesleedavis1

My POV is,
I lived easily with Finny after he bit my face. I was very young and i had no fear of him even after he did it. My dad gave me one heck of a talking to about the rules and why i did not follow them. I have had dogs since and i have dogs now, i never developed a fear of them. 
I respect my dads choice for not putting Fin to sleep, i would have been heartbroken for Finn.

My fiance expressed his POV to me about this same thing (we were having a theoretical convo about dog bites) he said that if one of our dogs ever bit one of the kids they would not be living in this home, whether they be rehomed or PTS. I respect his opinion, and if it ever happened here i would fight hard to rehome the dog but i would not go against his decision regarding the kids safety, absolutely not.

I think someone gave really good advice when they said "go with your gut" you know that dog the best, we are just reading the story and giving input.

Good luck in whatever you decide to do


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

The more 'macro' POV was brought up by others as often happens with threads of this nature, especially when they involve kids. I responded.

As to whether this dog has nerve issues, or health or environmental but that's best determined by a professional behaviourist/trainer/vet in person.



RocketDog said:


> OP did not come on here to discuss whether other dogs are nerve cases. He came in to discuss his. And with the information he provided further, it does appear that the dog has definite nerve issues.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

:wild:



nikon22shooter said:


> So lets go hug it hahahhaha


----------



## LoveEcho

Gwenhwyfair said:


> The more 'macro' POV was brought up by others as often happens with threads of this nature, especially when they involve kids. I responded.
> 
> As to whether this dog has nerve issues, or health or environmental but that's best determined by a professional behaviourist/trainer/vet in person.


:thumbup:


----------



## donkeyturtle

gsdsar said:


> Jumping in late to this party.
> 
> OP, no matter what you decide, I am very sorry you are in this position. Your daughter did not deserve to be bitten. Full stop. Your daughter should not have to continue living in a home with dog that has proven aggression towards her. Your daughter and her safety must be the number one on your priority list. There can be no argument.
> 
> Anyone suggesting that the dog should remain in the home is ludicrous. Whether you euthanize or rehome. The dog should not stay with the family. I don't really care WHY the dog bit, bad nerves, bad child, anxiety, a butterfly farted in Japan, irrelevant. The dog is not safe in your house and poses a proven threat to your daughter.
> 
> I don't have children. But that does not mean I am going to lay blame on them if my dog bites them. They are children. A 13 yo child is PHYSIOLOGICALLY incapable of understanding all possible outcomes of their actions. Ever asked a kid "why did you do that?" And gotten "I don't know". It's not being a smart Alec, they ACTUALLY don't know why they do things. Am I saying that children should not he punished or held accountable, no. What I am saying is that the child cannot be held responsible. Especially not for doing something very natural with a family pet. The end.
> 
> This dog is not safe to remain with your family.
> 
> I wish you luck. You sound like a very caring parent. This is not an easy decision.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Thank you gsdsar, I couldn't agree more. And yes - I do sometimes get the "I don't know" which is quite annoying, but I understand she's 13


----------



## carmspack

where is the dog now , how are you managing the dog now ? 

I assume that animal control paid a visit because you said you had to wait 10 days before doing anything? 

what did they see or say?


----------



## David Taggart

> living in a home with dog that has proven aggression


Agression is defined by dog behavourists as an emotional state caused by frustration due to inability to get to vital sourses. This behaviour cannot be called agression. The dog simply corrected the child for bad behaviour. The first time I was bitten by a dog - I was three years old, and, believe me or not, I remember every bit how it happened - I was pestering our family dog. I have learned there and then to respect other creatures privacy, and later on to respect human privacy. It was a good lesson from the dog, and my parents blamed me, not the old dog, despite the fact that my little finger was bleeding badly, I remember that as well!
I don't understand why here is so much fuzz about it. I'm very sorry for the girl, and hope that her wound heels quickly. But it would be very wrong to tell the girl "My poor little child, that bad dog has hurt you", very wrong. The girl shouldn't be pitied personally, it was her, who caused the trouble, though so naively. 
IMHO, I'd suggest mom to start a different relationship with her dog, and definitely read about GSD in families with small children. Every dog as any human has a unique personality, but the rules for your own behaviour happen to be the same.


----------



## Twyla

David Taggart said:


> Agression is defined by dog behavourists as an emotional state caused by frustration due to inability to get to vital sourses. This behaviour cannot be called agression. The dog simply corrected the child for bad behaviour. The first time I was bitten by a dog - I was three years old, and, believe me or not, I remember every bit how it happened - I was pestering our family dog. I have learned there and then to respect other creatures privacy, especially human privacy. It was a good lesson from the dog, and my parents blamed me, not the old dog, despite the fact that my little finger was bleeding badly, I remember that as well!
> I don't understand why here is so much fuzz about it. I'm very sorry for the girl, and hope that her wound heels quickly. But it would be very wrong to tell the girl "My poor little child, that bad dog has hurt you", very wrong. The girl shouldn't be pitied personally, it was her, who caused the trouble, though so naively.
> IMHO, I'd suggest mom to start a different relationship with her dog, and definitely read about GSD in families with small children. Every dog as any human has a unique personality, but the rules for your own behaviour happen to be the same.


:headbang:


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Well, David, you're in for it now! Good luck.


----------



## nikon22shooter

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Well, David, you're in for it now! Good luck.


 bahaha


----------



## my boy diesel

Gwenhwyfair said:


> The more 'macro' POV was brought up by others as often happens with threads of this nature, especially when they involve kids. I responded.
> 
> As to whether this dog has nerve issues, or health or environmental but that's best determined by a professional behaviourist/trainer/vet in person.


this is the best advice yet
the op i believe came here to gain justification for putting the dog to sleep
i notice he or she overlooks so many posts that say this may have been a one time thing and to manage the dog and kid better in the future

but truth is you have just as many people saying to not put her down
as there are those saying put her down

i am truly curious if the child who claims to love the dog
is in agreement that she needs to die

so get an in person professional eval and go from there
meanwhile keep the dog separated from the kid


----------



## misslesleedavis1

nikon22shooter said:


> bahaha


LOL, funny i had a OH crap! thought run thru my head.


----------



## nikon22shooter

misslesleedavis1 said:


> LOL, funny i had a OH crap! thought run thru my head.












:wild: :happyboogie: :hammer:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Good question........



my boy diesel said:


> this is the best advice yet
> the op i believe came here to gain justification for putting the dog to sleep
> i notice he or she overlooks so many posts that say this may have been a one time thing and to manage the dog and kid better in the future
> 
> but truth is you have just as many people saying to not put her down
> as there are those saying put her down
> 
> i am truly curious if the child who claims to love the dog
> is in agreement that she needs to die
> 
> so get an in person professional eval and go from there
> meanwhile keep the dog separated from the kid


----------



## donkeyturtle

carmspack said:


> where is the dog now , how are you managing the dog now ?
> 
> I assume that animal control paid a visit because you said you had to wait 10 days before doing anything?
> 
> what did they see or say?


I called and spoke to a couple vets, and they told me about the 10 day rule. We have a large fenced in yard, and are keeping her there or with us if we're home. I'm glad for the 10 days because it is a good period of time for us to really think things through.


----------



## Jack's Dad

my boy diesel said:


> this is the best advice yet
> the op i believe came here to gain justification for putting the dog to sleep
> i notice he or she overlooks so many posts that say this may have been a one time thing and to manage the dog and kid better in the future
> 
> but truth is you have just as many people saying to not put her down
> as there are those saying put her down
> 
> i am truly curious if the child who claims to love the dog
> is in agreement that she needs to die
> 
> so get an in person professional eval and go from there
> meanwhile keep the dog separated from the kid



Better yet, How about one of you volunteer to take the dog? 

Seems to be a lot of folks qualified to understand and appreciate this dog.


----------



## my boy diesel

Jack's Dad said:


> Better yet, How about one of you volunteer to take the dog?
> 
> Seems to be a lot of folks qualified to understand and appreciate this dog.


i can honestly say I would take her
there are some on here i would not
the owners knew the triggers in this case and it could have been avoided


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

:thumbup:



my boy diesel said:


> i can honestly say I would take her
> there are some on here i would not
> the owners knew the triggers in this case and it could have been avoided


----------



## misslesleedavis1

My boy Diesel could have just fixed the whole thing.


----------



## nikon22shooter

misslesleedavis1 said:


> My boy Diesel could have just fixed the whole thing.


:happyboogie:


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

btw- the 10 day rule is a rabies hold. Even if the dog is vaccinated most states require the waiting period to euth after a bite incident.

AC does not always get involved unless a complaint was filed.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

yup.

That was a classy response to a snarky comment 

I don't know about locations but if help is needed with transport I'll do what I can.



misslesleedavis1 said:


> My boy Diesel could have just fixed the whole thing.


----------



## misslesleedavis1

Gwenhwyfair said:


> yup.
> 
> That was a classy response to a snarky comment
> 
> I don't know about locations but if help is needed with transport I'll do what I can.


I apologize i was not trying to be snarky,


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Speaking of managing dogs, got some dogs needing my attention -now....

My Boy Diesel, I meant what I said if needed.....


----------



## nikon22shooter

I'm on the clock for another half hour


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

OH NO...not you! 

The one My boy diesel responded to.... 





misslesleedavis1 said:


> I apologize i was not trying to be snarky,


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Just stay away from the soap, it'll make you go blind.  



nikon22shooter said:


> I'm on the clock for another half hour


----------



## my boy diesel

the snark was jacksdad misslee, 
not you
thank u gwen, we will see how this plays out!


----------



## Jack's Dad

Gwenhwyfair said:


> yup.
> 
> That was a classy response to a snarky comment
> 
> I don't know about locations but if help is needed with transport I'll do what I can.


If you are referring to me that wasn't snarky. It's real easy for people to sit at a computer and tell others how to live. Make judgements about their lives, their spouses, their children and especially how to be a proper dog owner. 

My boy Diesel at least stepped up.

That's more than I can say for the glass house people.


----------



## David Taggart

OP, please, simply imagine yourself, your daufgter and your dog one year later happily together. If you put it for yourself a goal, you'd see that all things are working for it. Not without help from specialist, of course. If you asked how many people were bitten by their family dog when they were little, you will see that more than half of this Forum were, I'm absolutely sure about it. All of us are horrified by a dog attack, but it is not what happened in your house. Your baby will forget what happened (children are so generous to forgive!), think about reconciliiation between her and your dog. Everything should be alright, honest!


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Jack's Dad said:


> If you are referring to me that wasn't snarky. It's real easy for people to sit at a computer and tell others how to live. Make judgements about their lives, their spouses, their children and especially how to be a proper dog owner.
> 
> My boy Diesel at least stepped up.
> 
> That's more than I can say for the glass house people.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

:thumbup:




my boy diesel said:


> the snark was jacksdad misslee,
> not you
> thank u gwen, we will see how this plays out!


----------



## nikon22shooter

Bahahahaa, I hope I remember to put on my undies 

:wild: :rofl::happyboogie:


----------



## my boy diesel

* Make judgements about their lives, their spouses, their children and especially how to be a proper dog owner. *

isnt that was people are asking for when they come on here asking for advice?


----------



## David Taggart

OP, please, simply imagine yourself, your daufgter and your dog one year later happily together!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## RocketDog

It's funny how people on this thread who have said too many people in society today are guilty of thinking dogs are in people in little fur coats, yet they're the same people who refuse to accept that some dogs simply don't live quality lives and that the answer when they bite a human is maybe one they don't want to think about. They're so sure the answer is not to put to sleep but they're not there either to see that rehoming is clearly the answer... but they're sure of that!

Maybe they have magical glasses that allows them to see things others can't.


----------



## donkeyturtle

my boy diesel said:


> this is the best advice yet
> the op i believe came here to gain justification for putting the dog to sleep
> i notice he or she overlooks so many posts that say this may have been a one time thing and to manage the dog and kid better in the future
> 
> but truth is you have just as many people saying to not put her down
> as there are those saying put her down
> 
> i am truly curious if the child who claims to love the dog
> is in agreement that she needs to die
> 
> so get an in person professional eval and go from there
> meanwhile keep the dog separated from the kid


I am not overlooking any of the posts, regardless of the view point. Nor did I come on here to gain justification, I really just wanted to see what people had to say. I stated previously that I am very thankful for all the feedback and opposing views, and remain so. It has taught me a lot and really allowed for me to think it through. I do believe we could redouble our efforts to manage things, and that she may not bite again. That has been a strong possibility on my mind. However, this is a major risk, especially she has bitten and I am on notice about it. It was stressful in the home before, and would be more so now, especially if we had people over. I live in a small town, and have not found any great professional to work with. Further, I can honestly say that we've done the best that we could to lead her and love her as she is, but is has done nothing to relieve her nervous/fearful/anxiety issues. My daughter could go either way on the subject, but she truly does want a dog that she can pet, play with and love --- not one that stresses her out, as do I. Additionally, it is unacceptable that Bella bit my daughter, and I agree with some others comments such as gsdsar, who said it better than I could.


----------



## Bridget

I'm really late getting into this and didn't read every word of all the posts, as there are so many, but just want to relate my own experience. Heidi bit my daughter in the face, just like your situation, when daughter was in her middle teens and Heidi was 3. Rose was giving Heidi a bear hug. We had Heidi since she was a puppy and up to that time never had an incident. It wasn't a bad bite, but did break the skin. I immediately contacted my trainer and we worked with Heidi extensively. Rose didn't put her face down to Heidi anymore and she didn't get bit. The trainer and I came to the conclusion that this was a management issue. Heidi just has a thing about people's faces getting too close. Either she is intimadated by it or just plain offended. Ever since the bite, we don't put our face down to her. We don't play on the floor with her. All guests who come to our home know this too. We have a neighbor and a granddaughter who spend time at our home, ages 10 and 9 respectively. They are responsible kids and they know the rules also. If toddlers or small children or children who are not reliable come over, Heidi goes in the other room. It's just that simple. If I had had young children living in my home, I probably would have had her put down. It does make an enormous amount of difference the age of the child, whether it can be managed or not


----------



## my boy diesel

RocketDog said:


> It's funny how people on this thread who have said too many people in society today are guilty of thinking dogs are in people in little fur coats, yet they're the same people who refuse to accept that some dogs simply don't live quality lives and that the answer when they bite a human is maybe one they don't want to think about. They're so sure the answer is not to put to sleep but they're not there either to see that rehoming is clearly the answer... but they're sure of that!
> 
> Maybe they have magical glasses that allows them to see things others can't.


it does not take magic glasses to see we have only a tiny portion of this entire story
and what portion we have seen is not great but not the worst thing ever
this dog had no bite history until today or yesterday
if managed properly she will likely never bite again
that doesnt take magic glasses to see

if the dog had walked up and laid open the childs face as the child sat there doing nothing
that would be as they say, a whole 'nother ball of wax


----------



## RocketDog

my boy diesel said:


> it does not take magic glasses to see we have only a tiny portion of this entire story
> and what portion we have seen is not great but not the worst thing ever
> this dog had no bite history until today or yesterday
> if managed properly she will likely never bite again
> that doesnt take magic glasses to see
> 
> if the dog had walked up and laid open the childs face as the child sat there doing nothing
> that would be as they say, a whole 'nother ball of wax


We do have more than a tiny portion. We have the owner who said the dog has been fearful from the beginning. We have the owner who said the dog was afraid of people who walked down the hallway. We have the owner who said that the dog always kept its tail tucked between its legs. 

As I said earlier, regardless of what you would like to cherry pick, the owner is the only one qualified to make that decision. If he had posted on here before the bite in regards to possibly rehoming the dog because it wasn't a good fit, he would've been vilified and labeled a horrible monster because he was considering rehoming. I'm surprised frankly that he's not vilified now for letting it go on this long and then there was a bite.

There's no winning with people like you. There's only your way.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

You now have an offer to take the dog off your hands. I believe My Boy Diesel is sincere. 

I very respectfully suggest you PM with My Boy Diesel to verify. and discuss.

Your daughter won't have to feel bad about the dog being put down, your wife will feel better as well.

I will do what I can to help with transport.






donkeyturtle said:


> I am not overlooking any of the posts, regardless of the view point. Nor did I come on here to gain justification, I really just wanted to see what people had to say. I stated previously that I am very thankful for all the feedback and opposing views, and remain so. It has taught me a lot and really allowed for me to think it through. I do believe we could redouble our efforts to manage things, and that she may not bite again. That has been a strong possibility on my mind. However, this is a major risk, especially she has bitten and I am on notice about it. It was stressful in the home before, and would be more so now, especially if we had people over. I live in a small town, and have not found any great professional to work with. Further, I can honestly say that we've done the best that we could to lead her and love her as she is, but is has done nothing to relieve her nervous/fearful/anxiety issues. My daughter could go either way on the subject, but she truly does want a dog that she can pet, play with and love --- not one that stresses her out, as do I. Additionally, it is unacceptable that Bella bit my daughter, and I agree with some others comments such as gsdsar, who said it better than I could.


----------



## my boy diesel

*There's only your way.*

i suppose the irony is you cannot see yourself as being that way as well

a dogs life is at stake and the owner cant find resources
well i'm going to try, anyway :shrug:


----------



## RocketDog

Really. I didn't tell the OP what to do did I? I haven't tried guilting him into giving the dog away either. I told him I didn't envy him and I hoped that he could come to peace with whatever decision he was making. And in my opinion, rehoming the dog to complete stranger on the Internet would be the absolute worst thing I could possibly do.


----------



## donkeyturtle

Gwenhwyfair said:


> You now have an offer to take the dog off your hands. I believe My Boy Diesel is sincere.
> 
> I very respectfully suggest you PM with My Boy Diesel to verify. and discuss.
> 
> Your daughter won't have to feel bad about the dog being put down, your wife will feel better as well.
> 
> I will do what I can to help with transport.


We shall see, I've already found he is in Washington...which is a ways away..... Hopefully we'll have an update soon


----------



## Lilie

OP - I am very sorry this is happening to you and your family. I truly wish you the best. 

Personally, if I had young children living in my home, I could not and would not expose my family to the liability regarding a dog who now has a history of an aggressive bite. I could not take the chance of my child or my child's friend getting bit and disfigured. Not to mention the financial liability you will have if your dog bites and you are sued. You have been fore warned. You have knowledge of your dog's tendency to bite. It wouldn't look good for you in a court of law. 

I may sound brutal. But as an adult, I have to do what is best for my family and their future. 

I am truly sorry this has happened to your family. I hope this entire situation draws your family tightly together.


----------



## carmspack

my boy diesel has a dog , would this dog be suitable , would his current dog have a quick change in his life style.

there is another thread with a similar dog --- between a rock and a hard place -- a dog that won't tolerate being touched , has bitten twice - rejected for rehome . 

apparently that dog is available --


----------



## shepherdmom

nikon22shooter said:


> SAVE the WORLD, think of the CHILDREN.
> 
> 
> 
> Typical soccer mom haha



Sonny boy I'm most assuredly old enough to be your mama if not your grandma. My soccer mom days are well behind me. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

O.K. 

Thank you for updating.

I've already extended my hand to My Dog Diesel for what type of help I can provide in transport. 

This may have a happy ending after all. Take care.



donkeyturtle said:


> We shall see, I've already found he is in Washington...which is a ways away..... Hopefully we'll have an update soon


----------



## selzer

I deal with 2 seven year old kids. And dogs not raised with kids. I expect certain behavior from the kids and from the dogs. Karma was weirded out by the sleighs that the kids were riding at the park. I hoped that by having her there while they were doing it, she would get used to it. She didn't. I suppose I allowed her to be out of her comfort zone longer than I should have. No aggressiveness, just fear of the sleighs not the kids. But driving away, I remember the police dog that busted out of its kennel and tore up a child's arm that was sleighing there. _That _dog did not have weak nerves. How could it? It was a registered k9. 

I just read through everything posted today. Some things jump out at me:

The teenager was told repeatedly not to get in the dogs face, so she must have done it repeatedly, and there must have been enough signs that the dog was uncomfortable for the adults around her to continue to admonish the teenager.

I expect to tell 7 year olds repeatedly, "don't scare my dog." When these girls are six years older, I hope that they will be telling me a thing or two. 
I think that 13 year old kids are at an age where they should be expected to understand things. For heaven's sake in a few years she can be going to college, driving, having a job. They don't go from innocently incapable of anything to responsible adult by flipping a switch when they are sixteen or eighteen. I think the OP, in stating that she knew better, agrees with that to a certain extent.

This dog has given signals all along, but one day she bites. Why did she bite this time? I think that she did feel cornered. She had the couch on one side, the wall against her butt, the homework spread out and the daughter in front of her. Coming into her. In her face. Pow! She gave a quick correction and beat it out of there. If she is as skittish as the OP has been saying I couldn't understand why she let the daughter get right in her face without moving away. Now I know. The dog was cornered. The only way to get away was toward the person she really doesn't trust. So she struck and then moved away. 

Why does this dog, who was raised from a puppy in this home, not trust the husband or the daughter? Is it wired wrong? I really don't know. The dog is obviously not a match for everyone in the home. There seems to be no trust whatsoever between the husband and the dog, or the daughter and the dog. How sad. GSDs usually like children, especially when they are raised with them. I have heard of children being irritated with having to do a chore with a dog, and so that when they got out of sight, they then kicked the dog or worse. But that just doesn't seem to be the case here. 

Another line sticks out and that is, when Pop isn't home the dog is expected to be protection for the daughter and the wife. How so? Has the dog had training in protection? Has the dog been encouraged to bark, growl, menace to look the part of a bad GSD? 

Maybe this dog never bit before, because before there was always a way out for the dog. This time the dog was, in its opinion cornered. 

We get a puppy for a lot of reasons, family dog, companion, health, protection, enjoyment. We have a lot of expectations for a family dog. Heck, my parents named their English Setter Pip, because they had Great Expectations for him. Let me talk a moment about Pip. Pip was a Llewlyn line ES. That's the hunting line, or the field dog for those of you who are unfamiliar with the breed. I think now they are separating in them into English Setters and Llewelyn Setters. But like the German Shepherd, the show dog and the field dog are quite different. They do have similarities though. Intelligence is not one of their great attributes. 

In fact my mother claims my dad chose the only ********* dog in PA. The dog took 7 years to learn how to back himself out of a corner. He could set on a bird though in the field, and he set on the kitty when he was just 10 weeks old. Good for a dog meant to be a hunting dog. 

The thing was, my parents got Pip when my sister was 15. A little older her than this girl. A lot older. But, she would yell at this dog. Pip was a marshmallow. It took him some doing to learn a behavior, but he was soft as butter. We said afraid of his own shadow. My dad attributes some of that to how my sister would yell at that dog. God, I don't know what my point is, except that sometimes, kids do treat dogs poorly, sometimes they are downright abusive to dogs. Sometimes, a dog might avoid an individual because the have learned not to trust that individual. Sometimes, the gruffness of their voice, or the tone and level of their voice makes a dog nervous.

Cujo -- my dad would yell about the dog being over here, and my mom would tell him she was puppy sitting him. And then one day she said that the dog was hers, and she was keeping him so tough. At that point, my dad tried to suck up to the dog, and the dog was having none of it. He would bark at him, and didn't want to go past him, and was totally untrusting of him. Had my mom not gone into the hospital, leaving Cujo and Dad to learn to tolerate each other, I don't know if they ever would have bonded. 

Sometimes dogs can not trust a family member. Sometimes that does have some bases in a reality that the dog perceives. To live with a dog for five years, to not be surprised when the dog bites the kid -- not really. I get the impression that most dogs bite when they are 1-2 years, getting out of the puppy stage, and still way too insecure, but getting their big boy voice and finding that a little aggression makes things they want to happen, happen -- people back up. People go away. Momma pets me, that's what I should do.


----------



## Stevenzachsmom

I think MBD's offer is very generous. I mean no disrespect, but is this wise? None of those involved actually know each other. Who is to say this is going to be a good match for the people and dogs involved? There are a lot of "what ifs?" in this scenario.


----------



## mego

Stevenzachsmom said:


> I think MBD's offer is very generous. I mean no disrespect, but is this wise? None of those involved actually know each other. Who is to say this is going to be a good match for the people and dogs involved? There are a lot of "what ifs?" in this scenario.


I think it's better than euthanasia in 10 days and worth a shot, I hope it works out too though


----------



## carmspack

my boy diesel - rock and a hard place where they said - 

"the dog will always be a bite risk
honestly instead of trying to rehab him
and in truth it cannot be done 
he will always need managed
then put him to sleep before he does real damage

story i heard today about a mixed breed dog
who bit and nearly killed someone as she 
nailed the arm and got the artery
woman spent 3 days in the hospital
unless you are independently wealthy
and can afford that kind of hospital bill
put him to sleep
as sheila said
there's worse things that can happen

ps to chip 
yes rescues want dogs with minimal issues
they do not want to be saddled with a bite case immediately
wow 
why would anyone? "

seems a bit in conflict


----------



## my boy diesel

carmspack said:


> my boy diesel has a dog , would this dog be suitable , would his current dog have a quick change in his life style.
> 
> there is another thread with a similar dog --- between a rock and a hard place -- a dog that won't tolerate being touched , has bitten twice - rejected for rehome .
> 
> apparently that dog is available --


that dog sounds like a wild card to me!
if this female comes here she will be assessed and rehomed responsibly if that can be done
i don't want her for my own pet but rather to get her training more reliable and go over what bad habits she may have developed
as the op has no resources available as per his posts
i havent committed anyway, we are in the early stages of communication 
and i'm hoping to provide some resources for them while keeping her which would be my primary goal


----------



## Stevenzachsmom

There are worse things than euthanasia. What happens if Bella makes it to mbd and things go south? ie...Bella bites someone in transport, or after arrival? Bella and the resident dog aren't a good match? mbd isn't able to manage Bella? Now Bella is far from her original owner. Where is she going to go? The shelter? 

I am only speaking for myself.....I would rather have my dog put down, with me at her side, than send her into an unknown future - where she may still be pts, but alone and frightened. Again, I am only speaking for myself.


----------



## my boy diesel

carmspack said:


> my boy diesel - rock and a hard place where they said -
> 
> "the dog will always be a bite risk
> honestly instead of trying to rehab him
> and in truth it cannot be done
> he will always need managed
> then put him to sleep before he does real damage
> 
> story i heard today about a mixed breed dog
> who bit and nearly killed someone as she
> nailed the arm and got the artery
> woman spent 3 days in the hospital
> unless you are independently wealthy
> and can afford that kind of hospital bill
> put him to sleep
> as sheila said
> there's worse things that can happen
> 
> ps to chip
> yes rescues want dogs with minimal issues
> they do not want to be saddled with a bite case immediately
> wow
> why would anyone? "
> 
> seems a bit in conflict


that dog bit multiple people multiple times
and for the crime of 'moving too fast'
this dog was arguably provoked after the teen was scolded numerous times for putting her face too close
the dog did not savage her it nipped and walked away
vastly different behaviors imo


----------



## RocketDog

Who are you? How would anyone know whether you're capable of assessing this dog or not? You're a behaviorist? I think only a trained behaviorist with lots of experience is qualified here. 

Funny how now you say that you would rehome her or then towards the end even just "help them with resources" which is different than your first post where you "would take her" in a heartbeat.


----------



## Stevenzachsmom

*"Bella then proceeded to bite Abby on the nose, causing a large cut, a puncture, internal bleeding and bruising."

*MBD, You and I have an entirely different definition of "nip."


----------



## carmspack

mbd "if this female comes here she will be assessed and rehomed responsibly if that can be done
i don't want her for my own pet "

so mbd , you don't want the dog for yourself , you want to offer remedial training and then re-home her . The dog can barely live a secure life in her own home where she has been for the total of her 5 years.
do you have qualifications to do this ?


----------



## nikon22shooter

RocketDog said:


> Who are you? How would anyone know whether you're capable of assessing this dog or not? You're a behaviorist? I think only a trained behaviorist with lots of experience is qualified here.
> 
> Funny how now you say that you would rehome her or then towards the end even just "help them with resources" which is different than your first post where you "would take her" in a heartbeat.


Who are YOU to question him? What qualifications do you have questioning anyone?

You say its only one way or another but yet you seem pretty well stuck in your ways. :roll eyes:

Funny how that works. smh


----------



## nikon22shooter

Stevenzachsmom said:


> *"Bella then proceeded to bite Abby on the nose, causing a large cut, a puncture, internal bleeding and bruising."
> 
> *MBD, You and I have an entirely different definition of "nip."


It didn't MAUL the girl. :wild:

Its a german shepherd, a nip, bite, whatever. It'll do damage to the face. DUH


----------



## nikon22shooter

shepherdmom said:


> Sonny boy I'm most assuredly old enough to be your mama if not your grandma. My soccer mom days are well behind me.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Oh mama


----------



## Stevenzachsmom

No! A German Shepherd can most definitely have bite inhibition. Even a shepherd can nip without breaking the skin.


----------



## carmspack

that dog bit multiple people multiple times
and for the crime of 'moving too fast'
this dog was arguably provoked after the teen was scolded numerous times for putting her face too close
the dog did not savage her it nipped and walked away
vastly different behaviors imo 

xxxxxxxxxxx not vastly different because to date the OP's family has been aware of the dogs problem and have been very accommodating , trying to not ignite a situation.

you take this female , you change up her environment , you need to touch her , just to get to her collar so you can put her on lead -- likely she will behave the exact same way as this panicky dog in the "hard rock- hard place " thread , which is why I brought it up.

you? have you trained a dog, titled a dog, dealt with problem dogs, dealt with soft dogs, handler hard dogs, nervy dogs --- ???


----------



## Stevenzachsmom

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...o-you-know-where-dog-going-w-rhayas-post.html

And this is why we want to know WHO people are and WHERE the dog is going. Very legitimate questions.


----------



## carmspack

"Who are YOU to question him? What qualifications do you have questioning anyone?"

Obviously an intelligent person who looks at the big picture .


----------



## RocketDog

nikon22shooter said:


> Who are YOU to question him? What qualifications do you have questioning anyone?
> 
> You say its only one way or another but yet you seem pretty well stuck in your ways. :roll eyes:
> 
> Funny how that works. smh


I'm not the one offering to assess the dog now am I? You put yourself out there on a public forum saying that you're going to do it, you better be prepared to back it up with some facts. 


"Stuck in my ways"-- if by that you mean not telling people what to do over the Internet, I'll stay stuck thank you very much.


----------



## nikon22shooter

RocketDog said:


> I'm not the one offering to assess the dog now am I? You put yourself out there on a public forum saying that you're going to do it, you better be prepared to back it up with some facts.
> 
> 
> "Stuck in my ways"-- if by that you mean not telling people what to do over the Internet, I'll stay stuck thank you very much.


Yeah, he put himself out there. Trying to do the right thing and you have the nerve to call him out and question his qualification. I highly doubt he would even offer especially after this VICIOUS dog just ate half a girls face.

All it was is a OFFER, the OP isn't forced to do anything, its his choice.

For crying out loud look at the title of this thread. "Time to put down".

Yeah this dog is much better off with a 'stranger on the internet' than being killed.


----------



## RocketDog

Yes it is. Read the above thread. In fact some years ago, there was a poster on this board who everybody thought was such a nice person and "rescued" all these dogs. Some of the old-timers here will remember what I'm talking about. And you don't want to know what he did with the dogs.

Not to mention, you don't have any idea what the "right thing "is. The only person that will know what the right thing to do here is the OP.


----------



## sitstay

shepherdmom said:


> Well apparently I set my dogs up to fail.... But you know what. They didn't. This is what I expect out of a dog with kids. Anything less is unacceptable.


I am sorry shepherdsmom, but none of the dogs pictured looked comfortable with the handling they were receiving in the photos. I don't think they prove that a good family pet will tolerate anything thrown at them by children. They just prove that that particular dog, in that particular moment in time, hadn't reached it's threshold yet. Based on the body language? There most assuredly is a threshold with the dogs pictured.

Now, that said, I do think that our family pets need to have more stability than a lot of the working dogs out there. Our pets are expected to deal with a whole lot more than a lot of working dogs. 
Sheilah


----------



## carmspack

NO to this

" Yeah this dog is much better off with a 'stranger on the internet' than being killed."

the dog is either better off with her own family , with careful management , maybe some anti anxiety meds, or euthanized , not passed on to uncertain futures -- not fair for the dog , not fair for the family


----------



## nikon22shooter

RocketDog said:


> Yes it is. Read the above thread. In fact some years ago, there was a poster on this board who everybody thought was such a nice person and "rescued" all these dogs. Some of the old-timers here will remember what I'm talking about. And you don't want to know what he did with the dogs.
> 
> Not to mention, you don't have any idea what the "right thing "is. The only person that will know what the right thing to do here is the OP.


So since there is one sick person out there you treat everyone like their sick until they prove you wrong?

I don't know how you leave your house every day then.


----------



## boomer11

doesnt seem like a bad dog to me. maybe not the best nerves but certainly doesnt seem like the worst. just the wrong situation. 

the family wants a dog that is affectionate and wants to cuddle. the dog isnt a good fit for the family. 

i will say its easy to sit behind the computer and defend the dog until you've actually been in the situation. when a dog bites a family member it really changes how you look at the dog. when anyone or anything hurts your family you suddenly think more clearly. its a clarity and a feeling that you just have to experience. it wouldnt be so easy for some of you to defend the dog if it sent YOUR child to the er (no matter whos fault it was)

the op wants a dog that is affectionate towards the daughter and one that she can be friends with. thats completely understandable. i would rehome the dog and get another one. make sure its confident and has high pack drive. my current dog you can wake it up and give it kisses and its fine. some people are ok with a dog that has issues and can deal with the stress that comes with it. other people want a pet that they can enjoy and not have to "manage".


----------



## nikon22shooter

carmspack said:


> NO to this
> 
> " Yeah this dog is much better off with a 'stranger on the internet' than being killed."
> 
> the dog is either better off with her own family , with careful management , maybe some anti anxiety meds, or euthanized , not passed on to uncertain futures -- not fair for the dog , not fair for the family


I couldn't agree more. I would NEVER give my dog up. Unless it was physical seized from me.


----------



## RocketDog

nikon22shooter said:


> So since there is one sick person out there you treat everyone like their sick until they prove you wrong?
> 
> I don't know how you leave your house every day then.


Researching, asking for information, verifying facts, is hardly treating someone like they're sick. 

If you want to take an Internet strangers word for it with your own dog, go for it. Hopefully the OP has more sense.


----------



## nikon22shooter

RocketDog said:


> Researching, asking for information, verifying facts, is hardly treating someone like they're sick.
> 
> If you want to take an Internet strangers word for it with your own dog, go for it. Hopefully the OP has more sense.


Well I would hope the OP would question him and talk to him before just handing a dog over to him, but theres no reason to question him like he's not good enough without even knowing him.


----------



## sitstay

> Yeah this dog is much better off with a 'stranger on the internet' than being killed.


Absolutely NOT true!!!! And a very dangerous mind set to have. Not so much dangerous for the people involved, but very, very dangerous for the dogs.
Sheilah


----------



## RocketDog

nikon22shooter said:


> Well I would hope the OP would question him and talk to him before just handing a dog over to him, but theres no reason to question him like he's not good enough without even knowing him.


Asking what qualifications he has when he himself says he's going to "assess the dog" is insinuating he's not good enough? Actually more people should make sure the people handling dogs are "Good enough".


----------



## RocketDog

sit said:


> Absolutely NOT true!!!! And a very dangerous mind set to have. Not so much dangerous for the people involved, but very, very dangerous for the dogs.
> Sheilah


No no. It's rude to ask people anything before you hand your dog over to them.


----------



## selzer

I remember. 

I don't think that everyone that offers to help a dog on the internet is a crack-pot though. 

I euthanized a seven year old dog that I had from a 10 week old puppy, for aggression. But also because the dog was in chronic pain. Still, the aggression was deliberate and toward myself. He also growled at a friends' little girls age 1 and 2, like he wanted to attack them, and he tried to attack my sister. 

I like to think that if I had that dog today, I would have never made the mistakes with him, and there wouldn't be the same outcome. 

That was my first GSD, and he taught me a lot. I made a lot of mistakes, and still blame myself for everything that happened to him. 

Euthanizing a dog is not an easy choice. I think with kids, and 13 still is a kid, you have a whole other dimension to think about. 

I guess we can analyze this situation until the cows come home. In the end, the guy in the mirror has to live with the decision. I think there are good arguments for euthanizing, and good arguments for trying to work with the dog. 

I am sorry that you are going through this.


----------



## nikon22shooter

sit said:


> Absolutely NOT true!!!! And a very dangerous mind set to have. Not so much dangerous for the people involved, but very, very dangerous for the dogs.
> Sheilah


OooooooooooKAY! Let me rephrase for all your sensitive untrusting people!!!!

Its much better to give the dog to someone who will love it and give it a better home than its current "unstable" environment than KILLING it.

Better!?!? wow


----------



## nikon22shooter

RocketDog said:


> Who are you? How would anyone know whether you're capable of assessing this dog or not? You're a behaviorist? I think only a trained behaviorist with lots of experience is qualified here.
> 
> Funny how now you say that you would rehome her or then towards the end even just "help them with resources" which is different than your first post where you "would take her" in a heartbeat.


This is just asking if he's a good guy or not?

No, this is a douchbaggery comment and calling him out. Nice try though :roll eyes:

Remember, its the internet. People can't always read your mind and how you translate things


----------



## RocketDog

nikon22shooter said:


> This is just asking if he's a good guy or not?
> 
> No, this is a douchbaggery comment and calling him out. Nice try though :roll eyes:
> 
> Remember, its the internet. People can't always read your mind and how you translate things


"Who are you" = are you a dog trainer. 
"How would anyone know whether you're capable of assessing this dog or not?" = see question one. 
"you're a behaviorist?" = again, see question one.

And I'm going to edit this to add, there's been some douche bags on this forum today alright. And I'm done responding to those.


----------



## nikon22shooter

RocketDog said:


> "Who are you" = are you a dog trainer.
> "How would anyone know whether you're capable of assessing this dog or not?" = see question one.
> "you're a behaviorist?" = again, see question one.


Your reiterated one question, repeating yourself over and over. Drilling it in his head he may not be good enough. When all you had to do was ask.

What experience do you have to handle a dog in this situation?


----------



## ken k

to the OP, sorry this happened, I never allow *anyone* to hug or put their face to any of my dogs, and never have, I dont care how good the dog is, you just cant trust them that close up, this i have learned in the 45 years of having GSD`s

putting the dog down is difficult decision, also your daughter will know that her dog bite did resulted in the death of your dog, you have to take a step back and try and figure how your daughter is going to handle this

re-home, maybe, putting the dog down, I`d rather not see that, with education on your part, and some training for the dog, I think the situation can be managed


----------



## selzer

Is "douchbaggery" an acceptable word for a family-friendly site?
Is "douchbaggery" a word? 

We used to call each other pukes, when we were kids. One day I thought about what that was. I didn't like the idea. "You're such a puke." Ew! Well... Ew on that word too.


----------



## Jack's Dad

nikon22shooter said:


> Your reiterated one question, repeating yourself over and over. Drilling it in his head he may not be good enough. When all you had to do was ask.
> 
> What experience do you have to handle a dog in this situation?



Could I suggest that if you have a viewpoint that you make it known. You just seem to take pot shots at almost everyone thread after thread.


----------



## nikon22shooter

selzer said:


> Is "douchbaggery" an acceptable word for a family-friendly site?
> Is "douchbaggery" a word?
> 
> We used to call each other pukes, when we were kids. One day I thought about what that was. I didn't like the idea. "You're such a puke." Ew! Well... Ew on that word too.


Probably not, sorry 

I'll fix that


----------



## RocketDog

selzer said:


> Is "douchbaggery" an acceptable word for a family-friendly site?
> Is "douchbaggery" a word?
> 
> We used to call each other pukes, when we were kids. One day I thought about what that was. I didn't like the idea. "You're such a puke." Ew! Well... Ew on that word too.


Well considering you can buy "dishes" in the supermarket...


----------



## ken k

selzer said:


> Is "douchbaggery" a word?


well, learn something new every day, i`ll have to remember this new word


----------



## my boy diesel

jacksdad asked who would volunteer to take the dog
not give it a forever home
i said i would because yes i would not be afraid to have this dog in my home
i have taken one before with just such issues and found her a wonderful home

that said
my goal at this point is to give the op some resources as to how to manage this dog
and even improve her behavior a bit

for the ops part
they thought they were getting a wonderful stable dog 
and they didn't get that, they got a dog that is a fearful and probably genetic mess

they are quite capable of managing this dog 
the question now as always has been is 
"do we want to continue to manage her"


this thread is a trainwreck!!


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## nikon22shooter

Jack's Dad said:


> Could I suggest that if you have a viewpoint that you make it known. You just seem to take pot shots at almost everyone thread after thread.


Isn't that what a forum is for? And I only have gotten "into" it twice that I can think of, regarding hitting a dog and killing a dog. 

Its been a long day though, who knows. What can I say? I'm passionate about dogs and can be stubborn haha


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## RocketDog

ken k said:


> well, learn something new every day, i`ll have to remember this new word


This isn't new. Especially to anybody who is either a teenager or has teenagers themselves. Actually, now that I think about it, we use it on my running forum all the time.


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## RocketDog

I love all the, "they are quite capable of doing this and doing that". How do we know? Maybe their work schedule, school schedules etc. preclude managing anything to the extent that this animal might need it.


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## misslesleedavis1

Douchbaggery is totally a word. How much douche could a douchebag douche if a douchebag could bag douche? 
I could not help myself, lol

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## nikon22shooter

RocketDog said:


> I love all the, "they are quite capable of doing this and doing that". How do we know? Maybe their work schedule, school schedules etc. preclude managing anything to the extent that this animal might need it.


Its not *your* job to find out whose good enough. That would be between the OP and MBD.

Opinions and asking questions are one things. But when you drill questions how you did, that wasn't trying to find out if he's a good guy. You were trying to prove a point and wanted him to feel incapable.


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## nikon22shooter

misslesleedavis1 said:


> Douchbaggery is totally a word. How much douche could a douchebag douche if a douchebag could bag douche?
> I could not help myself, lol
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


:rofl:


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## selzer

my boy diesel said:


> jacksdad asked who would volunteer to take the dog
> not give it a forever home
> i said i would because yes i would not be afraid to have this dog in my home
> i have taken one before with just such issues and found her a wonderful home
> 
> that said
> my goal at this point is to give the op some resources as to how to manage this dog
> and even improve her behavior a bit
> 
> for the ops part
> they thought they were getting a wonderful stable dog
> and they didn't get that, they got a dog that is a fearful and probably genetic mess
> 
> they are quite capable of managing this dog
> the question now as always has been is
> "do we want to continue to manage her"
> 
> 
> *this thread is a trainwreck!!*


No, you are wrong. This thread is not a train wreck. 

There are a lot of people and a lot of opinions about something that matters a whole lot. The OP has a difficult decision to make concerning their pet of five years. If we can all be respectful of each other, than even if our opinions vary greatly about this dog, just maybe the person that matters in this conversation will be able to make the decision with his wife that they will have to live with. 

I think all the opinions are good to have, and I hope that no admins come along and shut this down, because this is a real issue, not only for these people, but maybe for someone who has a dog that is groaning and grumping and seems a little freaked out when people get in its face.


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## my boy diesel

RocketDog said:


> I love all the, "they are quite capable of doing this and doing that". How do we know? Maybe their work schedule, school schedules etc. preclude managing anything to the extent that this animal might need it.


1. because they have for 5 yrs successfully and 
2. i spoke to them on the phone 

now who has to be right all the time? :crazy:


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## RocketDog

my boy diesel said:


> 1. because they have for 5 yrs successfully and
> 2. i spoke to them on the phone
> 
> now who has to be right all the time? :crazy:


Be right? Between you and that other er "poster" that's responding on the thread, I'm the only one that hasn't given the OP any directive. The two of you seem to be telling him what to do. In fact never once did I presume to know what was best for the dog, unlike yourself.


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## Blanketback

Yay, a party! 

OP, you never did elaborate on what happened to your sister's dog from the same breeder, the one she PTS at 3 years of age. This could mean something.


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## nikon22shooter

RocketDog said:


> Be right? Between you and that other er "poster" that's responding on the thread, i'm the only one that hasn't given the OP any directive. The two of you seem to be telling him what to do. In fact never once did I presume to know what was best for the dog, unlike yourself.


I never once did either. I said not to kill him ahhahahahha


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## Jack's Dad

selzer said:


> No, you are wrong. This thread is not a train wreck.
> 
> There are a lot of people and a lot of opinions about something that matters a whole lot. The OP has a difficult decision to make concerning their pet of five years. If we can all be respectful of each other, than even if our opinions vary greatly about this dog, just maybe the person that matters in this conversation will be able to make the decision with his wife that they will have to live with.
> 
> I think all the opinions are good to have, and I hope that no admins come along and shut this down, because this is a real issue, not only for these people, but maybe for someone who has a dog that is groaning and grumping and seems a little freaked out when people get in its face.


I agree selzer:

These are topics worth discussing no matter where one falls within the spectrum of views.


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## my boy diesel

giving ones opinion does not constitute 
telling him what to do
we gave our opinions the same as everyone else
he asked for opinions 
i guess that means only ones you agree with


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## ken k

RocketDog said:


> This isn't new. Especially to anybody who is either a teenager or has teenagers themselves. Actually, now that I think about it, we use it on my running forum all the time.


I have Grand kids that are teenagers


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