# Destructive Behavior While We Are Away



## knwilk44 (Apr 19, 2012)

So, in the last 4 days I've had to be gone at some point during the day. We usually confine Zach to our bedroom just because we don't have a crate large enough for him. He has been doing fine. Monday we came home to trash strewn everywhere as he had let himself out of the bedroom. Tuesday we came home and he hadn't let himself out of the bedroom, but had climbed up on our mattress and took a huge crap and ruined our mattress. Yesterday we came home to trash and crap all over the place as he had let himself out yet again. Then just now my brother and I left to go get something to eat and we were gone MAYBE 30 minutes and what do we find when we come back? Zach had let himself out of the bedroom and destroyed our kitchen trash can and had trash strewn all over the house. He is being trained daily in obedience training and he knows that he isn't supposed to even stick his nose up next to the trash can, as that has been a stuck in stone rule since day one when we first got him. What can I do to deter him from doing these things and why is he doing them? I would really hate to have to get rid of him, and I won't if I can prevent him from doing these things while we are gone. It's not like we are gone for 8 hours everyday. All of the times I have been gone this week have all been under 3 hours. I'm getting pretty desperate and seeking your advice. PLEASE HELP!!!


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## Anastasia (Oct 7, 2011)

How old is he and why don't you have a crate that he can fit in? I bought an xlarge crate on ebay for 60.00 so you can get them fairly inexpensively. 

It sounds to me that a crate will solve this problem.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

Yep, buy a crate - for your sanity and Zach's safety.

There must be thread on crate training here somewhere... if not, google it.

My dogs are now well trained, but still go into their crates (never shut the doors anymore) to sleep.

I have two similar to these Pet Crates Blog Archive Precision Metal Pet Crates


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## knwilk44 (Apr 19, 2012)

He is two years old and we didn't buy a crate when we got him because he had been doing wonderfully until now. So, seems like we will just have to fork out more money, because we already have to buy a new mattress to replace the one he ruined a couple days ago.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Crate, lots more physical exercise, even more mental exercise. Zach will tell you when he has had enough because he will be happy to pass out while you're gone.  Use baby gates for further access control. What exactly do you do for daily obedience? He might not be challenged enough.


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## knwilk44 (Apr 19, 2012)

Right now we are only starting him with obedience. We go for daily walks/jogs and he also gets work on obedience training as well during that time period. Right now he knows sit, will sit beside me when I stop walking, and knows stay pretty well. The new thing we are teaching him is lay down. We start out working on the things he already knows, then I take a few minutes to work on getting him to lay down and we always end with him doing something he knows and he does good. Then we go for our walk/jog and by the time we are done and back inside his tongue is lolling out, he is breathing pretty heavily and is VERY thirsty.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Dogs, young dogs in particular crave attention. In our world there is good attention, (praise, treats, talking to, petting, etc) and there is also bad attention,(hollaring, corrections, chasing them, etc), when you leave you remove the attention from them. If they tear up things when you are gone, (not just because of attention, but also boredom, lack of human interaction, availability) etc, then when you come home the first thing you do is address them and the situation thus giving them attention. Use the crate!
The dog is not ready to be left alone yet!


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Hi knwilk44

How long have you had your dog?
________
Sue


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

If you can't get a crate, is there another room with NOTHING in it that you can put him in when you're gone

How is he letting himself out? If he can turn the door knob there are cheap safety covers made for kids that you can purchase so he can't grab the knob

Definetely exercise can be extended, a tired dog won't usually misbehave


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## sheep (Dec 2, 2011)

He's 2 years old, how long do you have him? If you guys have him for a long time and only in the last 4 days he's acting like that, then the reason is probably about something recent.

You've mentioned that he knows that he shouldn't go to the trash, and that you've started obedience training lately. How did he learn not to go for the trash?

When a dog learns the joy of destruction (like finding something really rewarding in the trash), he will probably continue going doing it. He might be bored due to lack of entertainment (physical exercise and mental stimulation are different things) so that he started to find entertainment by himself.

IMO, positive training to train a dog not to get to the trash might not be efficient all the times, since the dog might know that since owner isn't there he wouldn't have any reward for withholding the impulse for the trash, or that he might simply find the trash more rewarding. With positive punishment, if applied by the owner, the dog can still go for it when owner is not around, as there's an opportunity to have a rewarding experience without punishment.

There are a few things you can do to minimize or extinguish the behavior thought:
- bitter taste spray - it might or might not work, personally the one I've got was more like a scent repellant for us since the bitter scent was so strong on the air;
- use some strong menthol oil - it worked with my dog, to not allow him to chew on whatever I don't want him to chew;
- leave some toys and chew bones - make sure your dog is not a swallower so that it would be safe to do so, make sure to rotate them too so that he won't get bored;
- leave some kongs for him;
- restrain him to some safe place, you can use a baby gate too;
- crate train him - there are very big crates like even 52", since he's only there for a short time he would probably sleep (dogs sleep a lot, possibly more than 15 hours).

My own dog is restrained in the kitchen while we are at work. We tried a medicinal oil with a strong menthol scent and it worked. But well, the oil is ran out now so that we are hoping that his focus will continue to be on the toys.

There's also a way that helps, although I wouldn't recommend it if your dog is soft or fearful. It also has to be done correctly, or your dog can become stressful permanently.
You can use an e-collar with a remote and try to catch him attacking the trash. The key is to have your dog associating his own action and the trash with the correction, and not the owner, so that he will leave the trash alone even when you're not around.
But again, you have to be careful with it. The dog must know why he's zapped for, and you also shouldn't do it too often, since with any of this can make your dog feel stressed in the environment he's often being zapped at. Just imagine you're getting zapped and you can't figure out why, you would also feel stressed being in that place too.

I'm currently using an e-collar for that, since I don't want him to go for the kitchen counter nor for the phone on the wall of the hall. I can't figure out a way to train him not to get them while I'm gone, and I can't just proof the house completely anyways.

The e-collar I've got is not painful, but the stimulation can be very annoying. Just imagine a painless static shock that feels as if something is pressing your skin and your skin reacts involuntarily by tensing up and distancing. I'm not sure of other collars and e-collar training methods, but I don't think that this is that bad at all, at least compared to many forms of correction. Also, at least it's better than simply just restrain my dog for the sake of not trusting him around.

But again, only use it if your dog is not fearful nor soft, nor stressed, and make sure he doesn't react too negatively first. This is something to make him thing "yaak this trash seems unpleasant" and not make him yelp or cower in pain (I'm not sure how much it hurts with more intense levels of shock, but we only used levels that we don't feel pain at all).


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

While the physical exercise is awesome, it is often not enough to exhaust a dog beyond the short term. If I bike my dog, he is floppy for a couple hours and then ready to rock again. Conversely, if we had an intense agility class, I would practically forget I had a dog for a couple days because he is just that chill. Agility is physical but involves a lot of mental work. Plus, being in an actual class really stresses my dog in beneficial ways. Would you consider formal obedience classes with your dog? Obedience, rally, agility, all would be great options. You can even work from home by bringing your dog places like the big box pet stores and outdoor stores, lumber yards, downtowns, and work your dog in obedience. When you haven't done any hard physical exercise but your dog's tongue is hanging out the side and he's panting hard, you have seriously worked his brain!


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## knwilk44 (Apr 19, 2012)

Well we have only had him for about a month. We don't have door knobs that turn. We actually have the handle types and I'm assuming he just reaches up with his paws and opens the door. We thought about possibly locking the door to the room that he is in and that way he can't escape from his designated room. The good thing is now I don't have anything going on for the next two weeks so I can really work on this aggressively. In reference to the question of how he knows he isn't supposed to bother the trash: when we are at home and he even goes up to sniff the trash can I tell him "NO!" and make him come away and lay down. I would consider taking him to formal obedience classes, but the ones here locally charge an arm and a leg price for classes. As far as the crate idea, that will have to wait another two weeks. Until then we will try actually locking the door so that he cannot escape and see what he does. I'm guessing that he will destroy whatever is in that room. I've tried leaving toys and chews down for him when we leave and he won't play with any toys and he won't chew on any bones. He doesn't take treats even. So, I don't know if he would even like a kong toy. I will also try the bitter taste spray on the trash can and see if that works as well.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

Obedience classes and a crate are much cheaper than having to replace your mattress. You've only had him a month and the honeymoon period is over and now his true personality is coming out. 

By not crating him, he just learned that he can destroy things and have a great time while you are out. I know dogs that have removed the flooring and put new doors in the walls. If you want a good long term relationship with this dog, get the crate now and crate him every time you can't directly watch him.

I don't know too many dogs that won't get in the trash given the opportunity, especially once they have discovered how much fun it is to get in it. Getting after him while you are home is a good start, but it's all up to him whether he's going to get in it when you aren't there.


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## Bismarck (Oct 10, 2009)

buy the crate NOW and teach him it's a good place to be.

depending on how stubborn he is, dogs can actually hurt themselves if they're not crate trained correctly.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> In reference to the question of how he knows he isn't supposed to bother the trash: when we are at home and he even goes up to sniff the trash can I tell him "NO!" and make him come away and lay down.


Forgive me, but if he knew to stay away from the trash, he wouldn't go sniff it in the first place.... all he knows is to obey when you are around. OF COURSE he will go to the trash when you're not there. Now if you put mouse traps in the trash and let him get the fur scared off him when you're not home, then he will likely associate garbage = scary loud little snappy things trying to bite my face - GARBAGE BAD.

Sock the money away for a crate and classes. They are both significantly cheaper than a mattress, furniture, emergency surgery on the dog, etc. Locking him in a room is more isolating than having him in a safe crate where he can see the living area of the house. I'm sure he sees the room door as a challenge. Do you want him to escalate from the doorknob to chewing the door and frame?


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## knwilk44 (Apr 19, 2012)

Guys, I'm already having to replace our mattress as it is. I had to buy a new mattress with what little money I had left over and won't have any extra for the next two weeks so I'm going to have to figure something out temporarily. But, fortunately, I don't have to be anywhere for the next couple of weeks so everything should be okay until we can get paid and get the crate.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

You can always find a cheap one on craigs list.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Hi Kristin

I'm been reading your post about Zach and your lovely family. It's really kind of you to rescue Zach, he's a very lucky boy. 

Apparently poor Zach was abandoned in the back yard by his previous owners, and relied on the neighbours throwing food over the fence to survive. Can you imagine how terrified he must be every time you leave him. He doesn't know how long you'll be gone or even if you'll come back at all. If you don't come back he'll starve.

He's not naughty and destructive - he's panic struck. You need to reassure him and let him understand that you will come back and it's ok to be alone.

During the next two weeks you can start to work on desentisizing him to being alone. 

Decide what room you'd ideally like him to stay in when you're away, and make sure he has somewhere comfortable to sleep and a stuffed frozen kong to leave with him. It's also a good idea to leave a radio or TV on. 

Start leaving him in that room. Be very casual about it, just say to him "see you later" and shut the door - wait 20 seconds - go back in and say casually "Hello Zach" (or whatever)- don't make a big issue of it - if you do - he will as well. 

Do this several times a day slowly extending the length of time you leave him. 

Once he seems ok with you leaving him in the room - but remaining in the apartment - you can then start to actually leave the apartment for very short periods. Behave exactly the same, only now you'll need to pick up your keys and put on a coat. But still be casual about leaving and coming back. 

I appreciate with two small children it won't be easy - but it will be worth it. 

I would also change the door handle to a door knob in the room you want to leave him in. We did that with all our doors to stop the dogs opening them.

As for the trash can, you'll find if you remove it from his reach, even it means putting in another room when you leave him, and couple it with teaching him to leave it when you are there - as he feels more secure he'll stop going after it anyway. 

If you have a look at these two sites there are some lovely videos showing you how to train your dog using treats 

Clicker Training Dog Tutorials (Free)

Dogmantics Dog Training the official ?Kikopup? website

Good luck
____________
Sue


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## knwilk44 (Apr 19, 2012)

jakes mom said:


> Hi Kristin
> 
> I'm been reading your post about Zach and your lovely family. It's really kind of you to rescue Zach, he's a very lucky boy.
> 
> ...



Sue

I had thought about that when he started doing this. He's became VERY attached to me and sees me as his leader and provider of food, love, and comfort so it would be reasonable to expect this behavior from him considering what he went through before. I will start desensitizing him to me leaving over these next few weeks. You are right about it being hard but it will get easier as time goes on and he learns that I'm not going to abandon him as the last people did. I'm also going to get him a kong toy within these next few weeks and see if he will play with that. I love him to death and wouldn't get rid of him for every dollar in the world, but it is rather annoying to have to come in and start cleaning up messes and have to deal with two children, too. But, it's part of being a responsible dog owner and I'll do any means necessary to make Zach feel more comfortable with us leaving.


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## Bismarck (Oct 10, 2009)

Start leaving him in that room. Be very casual about it, just say to him "see you later" and shut the door - wait 20 seconds - go back in and say casually "Hello Zach" (or whatever)- don't make a big issue of it - if you do - he will as well.

can't stress the, "don't make a big issue" enough.
when you come back in, say hello or whatever then go about your business, ignore his happy attempts to interact with you. when he's calm, then you should go say hello physically, with a pat on the head or whatever.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

DianaM said:


> Forgive me, but if he knew to stay away from the trash, he wouldn't go sniff it in the first place.... all he knows is to obey when you are around. OF COURSE he will go to the trash when you're not there. Now if you put mouse traps in the trash and let him get the fur scared off him when you're not home, then he will likely associate garbage = scary loud little snappy things trying to bite my face - GARBAGE BAD.


Absolutely. It's very common for people to give their dogs entirely too much credit for what they think they "know". Dogs learn in very specific ways, and often must be taught to generalize. Just because my dog won't get in the trash or try to steal food off the kitchen counters if I'm in the room, I would NEVER assume that they "knew" that these things were bad, and wouldn't do them if I wasn't right there. They're DOGS - of course they would! 

Because it's much more difficult to train your dog not to misbehave when left unsupervised, the best thing is to find a way to manage the situation so he does not have an opportunity to get into the trash.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

You could also look at it like this - "If I'd sprung for a crate that fits in him the first place, I'd not be having to spend money on a mattress".

You're already talking about getting rid of him 
It's not his fault, he's a dog; it's really up to the human to guide their dogs and help teach them how to behave.

Read Craigslist and get a cheap crate, but do get a crate.


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## knwilk44 (Apr 19, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> You could also look at it like this - "If I'd sprung for a crate that fits in him the first place, I'd not be having to spend money on a mattress".
> 
> You're already talking about getting rid of him
> It's not his fault, he's a dog; it's really up to the human to guide their dogs and help teach them how to behave.
> ...



I have NEVER said that I was getting rid of him! Where did you conjure that up from???? I have said that even though he's doing this I WOULDN'T take every dollar in the world for him and I LOVE him! Had you really read and comprehended my posts you'd know this. You'd also know that he's been acting up for about a week now and this other dog that we took in YESTERDAY is NOT the cause for him acting up. He was abandoned by his previous owners in their backyard and their house condemned so he has severe seperation anxiety that is just now manifesting itself. Please don't go and assume I'm getting rid of him when I have said that I will NEVER get rid of him! That irritates me, sorry. I also have said a few times that I'll be looking for a crate and working on desensitizing him over these next few weeks until I can get the money to get a crate for him. I've been looking on CL and can't find any crates for sale that would fit him that are local.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

knwilk44 said:


> I would really hate to have to get rid of him, and I won't if I can prevent him from doing these things while we are gone.


This is where you were talking about getting rid of him, so don't blame anyone for saying you said so.

Are you sure this is seperation anxiety? You've only had him a month and you said he was acting up for the last week. This pretty much goes with getting a new adult rescue. There is a honeymoon period where they are stressed and either are crazy out of control initially or they are weirdly good initially. Once they settle in in about two weeks, you see their true personality. 

Your dog may well have been on his best behavior initially and is now back to his normal self. He may very well have never been taught how to be safe in the house and that's what you are seeing: a happily destructive dog.

I don't know which is the case with your dog as I can't see him. Can you give a little more info about why you think it's seperation anxiety? It makes a big difference in how you handle him.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Elaine thank you. That jumped out at me while reading through the thread.

I wish you'd endorse the "two week shut down" (call it "breaking in period" if "shut down" offends you!), too 
We advocate using it to help head these issues off at the pass.

It's harder to go back and try to crate train now than if the precedence had been set from the git-go.
Not saying it can't be done - but it'll take more dedication now.


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## knwilk44 (Apr 19, 2012)

Okay. I do see where I said that now. I didn't mean for it to sound as if I would get rid of him because I won't no matter what. Apparently, the previous owners that abandoned him in their back yard had kept him inside along with his sibling their entire lives. It's not that he's not used to being inside, I don't think. I'm not 100% sure that its not seperation anxiety, but that's what it seems like. If it weren't he would also be destructive while I was at home and he is not. No need to preach to me about dedication. I'm 110% dedicated to him regardless of how long it takes to crate train him. It won't bother me one bit if it takes months on end to get him crate trained. Then again....I haven't decided if I want to put up a baby gate at the end of our hallway and give him run of the hallway and our smaller bathroom or if I want to crate him. I personally think he might do better with us leaving the TV on when we leave and giving him a little space to wonder around and him still being confined to a smaller area of the house. I'm also going to start putting the trash can and anything he can reach in a seperate room until we get back. All of this on top of desensitizing him to us leaving.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

For the moment, I would assume the dog is just destructive and doesn't have seperation anxiety. Many dogs are fine in the house when you are there, but due to various things, are destructive as soon as you leave and that has nothing to do with seperation anxiety. That's a bored dog that has learned to keep himself entertained when alone. Are you saying the dog never went outside even to potty?

At this stage in the game, your dog has proven that he's very destructive. Leaving him loose in any way when he's alone, even briefly and even with a baby gate is a disaster waiting to happen unless you really want your house renovated. He needs to be crated every single moment where you aren't there,where he will be safe and secure and your house will be in one piece when you get home.

I have been fostering dogs for years and no matter how well behaved people say their dog is, all new dogs are crated at my house when I'm not home. I'm not crazy in believing my house will be in the same condition as when I left. This means the dog isn't allowed to misbehave so he doesn't learn that destruction is fun.


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## knwilk44 (Apr 19, 2012)

Elaine said:


> For the moment, I would assume the dog is just destructive and doesn't have seperation anxiety. Many dogs are fine in the house when you are there, but due to various things, are destructive as soon as you leave and that has nothing to do with seperation anxiety. That's a bored dog that has learned to keep himself entertained when alone. Are you saying the dog never went outside even to potty?
> 
> At this stage in the game, your dog has proven that he's very destructive. Leaving him loose in any way when he's alone, even briefly and even with a baby gate is a disaster waiting to happen unless you really want your house renovated. He needs to be crated every single moment where you aren't there,where he will be safe and secure and your house will be in one piece when you get home.
> 
> I have been fostering dogs for years and no matter how well behaved people say their dog is, all new dogs are crated at my house when I'm not home. I'm not crazy in believing my house will be in the same condition as when I left. This means the dog isn't allowed to misbehave so he doesn't learn that destruction is fun.


HE WAS ABANDONED IN HIS PREVIOUS OWNERS BACKYARD! What makes you think he wouldn't have seperation anxiety after the people he loved for the first year and a half of his life just up and left him???? I don't want to crate him and keep him locked up all of the time when we are gone. If you don't show your dog that you trust them things will NEVER get better IMO. No offense, but you have your opinion and I have what I KNOW about my dog's background and I know that it's not just destructiveness. If he was bored and doing these things out of boredom he would do it while I was at home. I've had a truly destructive dog before and she would destroy whatever was near even if I was sitting right beside her! The fact that he only does it while I'm away is the key clue in telling me that it's indeed seperation anxiety. I don't need anymore help from people telling me what they think they know about my dog. I know his background and have posted it a couple of times on here. So, IMO for anyone to think it's not seperation anxiety just goes to show that they haven't really comprehended what happened to him. Can you imagine being a spoiled house pet and one day being perfectly happy with your family and then the next day they leave and NEVER return? The grass grows high, the house starts to stink with mold, nobody ever comes to play with you and love you like you were so used to, you have to fend for yourself and drink scarce rain water, and then you might get fed once a week due to the nice neighbors two streets over bringing you and your brother table scraps from that week and you have to fight with your own brother over food to survive? Can you imagine going through that and then bonding with another family and then them leaving and being gone for a while for a day? Any NORMAL animal would naturally freak out over being left alone after going through what he has been through. Sorry for the long post and seeming hostile in some of my words, but I've been dealing with quite a bit of stress this weekend with dealing with my younger brother and dealing with my own relationship problems. I don't feel like venting and ranting about it here so forgive me.


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## knwilk44 (Apr 19, 2012)

Just to clarify, yes I did ask for help with this. I know that and understand that. What I meant is I don't need anymore people telling me he's just a bad dog and just being destructive out of boredom when they clearly haven't read about his background as of yet. If you've dealt with seperation anxiety before then by all means; post your experience and what helped your dog. But don't sit there and tell me my dog is horrible and he's just destructive and it's just out of boredom when I know otherwise.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

knwilk44 said:


> HE WAS ABANDONED IN HIS PREVIOUS OWNERS BACKYARD! What makes you think he wouldn't have seperation anxiety after the people he loved for the first year and a half of his life just up and left him???? *I don't want to crate him and keep him locked up all of the time when we are gone. If you don't show your dog that you trust them things will NEVER get better IMO.*
> 
> *This attitude is going to cost you -- financially and in other ways.*
> 
> ...





knwilk44 said:


> Just to clarify, yes I did ask for help with this. I know that and understand that. What I meant is I don't need anymore people *telling me he's just a bad dog* and just *being destructive out of boredom* when they clearly haven't read about his background as of yet. If you've dealt with seperation anxiety before then by all means; post your experience and what helped your dog. But don't sit there and *tell me my dog is horrible* and he's just destructive and it's just out of boredom when I know otherwise.


I don't think anyone called your dog horrible or bad? Even if he was being destructive out of boredom, it doesn't make him a bad dog. Just a bored dog. So what? These are intelligent, demanding dogs and speaking only for my mixed boys, they get bored pretty dang easy.


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## knwilk44 (Apr 19, 2012)

Ok, so what am I supposed to do??? I have absolutely ZERO money left until these next two weeks so unless somebody just GIVES away a crate large enough for him I won't be getting one for another two weeks! Not everyone is made of money and its irritating for people to say just go buy a crate right now, knowing that I already had to pay our last $150 for a new mattress so we would have a bed. The only thing that makes him destructive is he's had accidents in the house while we were gone and demolished the trash one time! That's not destroying my house and I think people are blowing this out of proportion a bit.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

knwilk44 said:


> Apparently, the previous owners that abandoned him in their back yard had* kept him inside along with his sibling their entire lives*.


Look, quit yelling at us when you are the one saying these things.

Your dog's story is sadly very common and I have personally had many dogs just like this and worse come through and they DON'T have seperation anxiety just because they have been badly neglected. Seperation anxiety is usually a mental disorder that the dog is born with and then it's not dealt with so it gets bad.

I'm not saying your dog is bad; he's destructive. Crating your dog every moment when you can't watch him, not only prevents the destruction, but it teaches him to chill out and go to sleep when alone. This isn't a punishment, it's a safety and training tool. 

Maybe your dog would need to be crated forever, but most likely just for the next several months until he can be trusted again. You would begin to leave him out for very short periods of time and if he's good, then you can try to leave him out for slightly longer periods of time. As he's learned how much fun it is to entertain himself, it's going to take longer to break him of this.

If you don't want to crate your dog, that's your business, but you will have to live with consequences of it.


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## knwilk44 (Apr 19, 2012)

Elaine said:


> Look, quit yelling at us when you are the one saying these things.
> 
> Your dog's story is sadly very common and I have personally had many dogs just like this and worse come through and they DON'T have seperation anxiety just because they have been badly neglected. Seperation anxiety is usually a mental disorder that the dog is born with and then it's not dealt with so it gets bad.
> 
> ...



What I meant by they had been inside their entire lives was not that they were never let outside but that they were both used to being inside. He does need to learn his house manners again and he's not destroying parts of my house other than my mattress that I had to replace. SO, sorry for yelling, but I just can't seem to get my point across that you have your opinion and this is my experience. I'm not the only one that's said it's seperation anxiety. I don't believe that dogs are born with that issue. I believe that it's an acquired issue with very well socialized and bonded dogs and it develops and then isn't dealt with. Unforunately, we as humans have created most canine problems we experience. I'll be getting him a kong toy to try while we are away but how do you cure boredom in a dog that won't play with anything?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

There is craigslist. Maybe if you post an ad, someone WILL give you one. 
But it sounds like that's only half the battle.

You cannot teach a dog to not be destructive when you are not home, and leaving them home alone uncrated will only worsen the problem.



> I'm not the only one that's said it's seperation anxiety. I don't believe that dogs are born with that issue. I believe that it's an acquired issue with very well socialized and bonded dogs and it develops and then isn't dealt with.


I believe it's defective wiring in their brains. Not all dogs get this. Weak nerved dogs of all breeds develop it.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

knwilk44 said:


> Ok, so what am I supposed to do??? I have absolutely ZERO money left until these next two weeks so unless somebody just GIVES away a crate large enough for him I won't be getting one for another two weeks! Not everyone is made of money and its irritating for people to say just go buy a crate right now, knowing that I already had to pay our last $150 for a new mattress so we would have a bed. The only thing that makes him destructive is he's had accidents in the house while we were gone and demolished the trash one time! That's not destroying my house and I think people are blowing this out of proportion a bit.


Look, I feel your frustration, it is screaming thru your posts!

I'm not made of money either. 

Ok so we'll take this at face value that you can't get a crate right now.

Keep looking on Craigslist. Search for "kennel" as well as "crate." Ask friends. Maybe someone has one you could borrow until the funds are there.

Limit his abilities to destroy anything. Put things up. Put the trash in another room. Make the area as dog proof as possible so you won't incur future financial hardships.

ETA - Has he ever had a bully stick?


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## Sherry (Mar 2, 2012)

I was a foster mom at one time while a dog was in rescue. She didn't like being in a crate but she had heart worms and we were helping her to be calm and quiet during the treatment. If we left the door of the crate open while we were gone -- she peed all over the carpet. I've learned since then that with a new, older dog coming into the home, we needed to treat it just like training a puppy coming into the home for the first time -- at least in some areas. I believe if I had known more about how to make the crate more enjoyable for her -- it would have been better. Dogs naturally enjoy being in a den unless they have associated it with things that are bad (our rescue was at the shelter for quite a while). They also will normally not pee in the place they sleep. At first the crate I had was too big for her. She would pee on the half she didn't sleep on. I had to put in a wire divide that came with the large crate to make it smaller. Just enough room for her to stand up, and turn around a bit in her bed. She stopped peeing in the crate. I think you could swap out the information about peeing on the carpet with being destructive and crapping on the bed. A crate is not a bad thing to do for a dog but rather a good thing. It really helps with puppy training and I believe a new, older dog in a home needs this structure in the beginning until they earn your trust. There will come a day when you will probably not need to do this. I know my sister had large dogs who between 3 - 6 months of age tore out and chewed the dry wall from her walls till she decided to crate them. As they got older they were fine in the house and one of them liked to plant herself in the middle of the house so she could "guard" the front and back door at the same time. A neighbor's dog at 4-5 months systematically chewed up an entire sofa (over a week, every time they left) while they were gone till she started to crate him. He is happy in a crate. She decided to also crate the other dog they had (the dog they had began reverting some of her house training when the new dog came) and got her a very comfy bed inside so she loves to be in it. They can't put anything for the puppy to lay on as he destroys it. 

The "lock-down" thread on this forum is good advice. I wish I had known about this with our foster.

How to Teach Your Dog to Love the Crate: 7 steps - wikiHow 

American Dog Trainers Network -- How To Successfully Crate Train Your Puppy

Is there a place on this forum for someone wanting to sell a crate? Maybe this would be a good resource for you.

Of course, it sounds like you are already budgeting for this over the next couple of weeks and that's great.





knwilk44 said:


> Just to clarify, yes I did ask for help with this. I know that and understand that. What I meant is I don't need anymore people telling me he's just a bad dog and just being destructive out of boredom when they clearly haven't read about his background as of yet. If you've dealt with seperation anxiety before then by all means; post your experience and what helped your dog. But don't sit there and tell me my dog is horrible and he's just destructive and it's just out of boredom when I know otherwise.


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## knwilk44 (Apr 19, 2012)

chelle said:


> Look, I feel your frustration, it is screaming thru your posts!
> 
> I'm not made of money either.
> 
> ...



We have tried literally EVERY treat/bone imaginable from Feeder Supply and he won't touch them. He sniffs them and then leaves them alone. Plus, I've heard some bad things about dogs that chewed on bully sticks. It made their stomach upset and his is already sensitive.


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## Sherry (Mar 2, 2012)

Pieces of fresh cooked chicken or steak 

Make it a high value reward to get him in the crate. 

The same destructive puppy that I told you about destroying an entire couch, I taught to do a "lay down" in a matter of minutes with some chunks of steak... but he didn't just "lay down" -- he went all the way down on the floor flat and looked up at me with adorable eyes with his chin on the floor because he wanted a piece so bad. It was kind of incredible and sweet. High value rewards.


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## knwilk44 (Apr 19, 2012)

Sherry said:


> Pieces of fresh cooked chicken or steak
> 
> Make it a high value reward to get him in the crate.
> 
> The same destructive puppy that I told you about destroying an entire couch, I taught to do a "lay down" in a matter of minutes with some chunks of steak... but he didn't just "lay down" -- he went all the way down on the floor flat and looked up at me with adorable eyes with his chin on the floor because he wanted a piece so bad. It was kind of incredible and sweet. High value rewards.



I hadn't thought about that! Great idea. Can I put like small chunks in the kong toy to encourage him playing with that, too? I need MAJOR ideas to get him to play with toys/chews/treats instead of the garbage lol.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

knwilk44 said:


> We have tried literally EVERY treat/bone imaginable from Feeder Supply and he won't touch them. He sniffs them and then leaves them alone. Plus, I've heard some bad things about dogs that chewed on bully sticks. It made their stomach upset and his is already sensitive.


They're high in protein, so sure, some dogs may have some digestive problems with them.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

knwilk44 said:


> I hadn't thought about that! Great idea. Can I put like small chunks in the kong toy to encourage him playing with that, too? I need MAJOR ideas to get him to play with toys/chews/treats instead of the garbage lol.


You could... and maybe even freeze it so it's more work to keep him busy?


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## Midnight12 (Jan 6, 2012)

I got a 2 year old rescue in dec, wish I had known then about the 2 week shut down talked about on this site. she was tearing up stuff when I would leave too. Started using the crate never had one before but it helped. I don't use it any more don't need it. If you have only had the dog for a month give it some time and take some of the very good advise you have been given' It really took mine almost 3 months to adjust and now she is doing great A month is not really all that long


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

It definitely takes older dogs longer to adjust than puppies under 6-8 mos.

The two week shut down is a lifesaver


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## Sherry (Mar 2, 2012)

Oh sure! I think cooked brown rice (personally I like Jasmine rice) is affordable and usually pretty safe for digestive systems. Make it for you and your dog!

A high quality canned dog food stuffed in a kong works, too.

Here is a toy that he might enjoy that looks affordable and has some pretty good reviews 

Amazon.com: Jolly Pet 8-Inch Romp-n-Roll, Red: Pet Supplies






knwilk44 said:


> I hadn't thought about that! Great idea. Can I put like small chunks in the kong toy to encourage him playing with that, too? I need MAJOR ideas to get him to play with toys/chews/treats instead of the garbage lol.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> The two week shut down is a lifesaver


It truly is and I'll praise it every chance I get.


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## Sherry (Mar 2, 2012)

Hey, here is a free online book that would be very helpful. I know the title says, "Puppy" but in your case it is pretty similar because it is a new dog.

Here is an excerpt, "Most doggy "disobedience" and wanton house destruction
occurring in the owner's absence has nothing to do with
separation anxiety. In fact, separation relief might be a more
precise and descriptive term. The dog chews, digs, barks, and
soils the house only when the owner is absent because he has
learned it would be foolhardy to indulge in these pastimes when
the owner is present."

This is on page 22 and the whole page is worth a read and then the whole book. It offers great solutions.

It's an excellent price -- FREE.

http://www.dogstardaily.com/files/AFTER You Get Your Puppy.pdf


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

I think this is seperation anxiety, and as I see it, the OP has no spare money at the moment for a crate, she's not even sure if she really want one, and has two weeks to work on this issue - not a lot of time I know - but probably enough to discover if it is wanton destruction or not. 

Isn't it better to treat it as though it is seperation anxiety and be wrong, than assume it's just a dog who enjoys destroying things when the owner is out of the way.

I don't deny that crates have there uses, But I also think they can be used to contain problems - rather than solve them. 

I've never used one. They are not in common use in the UK - probably because the rooms in our houses are smaller, and crates especially for a GSD's take up a fair amount of space.

I'm sorry, but I don't see how a dog, left alone, trapped in a crate and chewing on a kong, a bone or a toy is a happy dog - I think it's a stressed dog or a bored dog - coping with the stress or boredom. No different in my opinion from a dog who chases his tail, or self harms. Crying, whining, and barking, as had no effect so they they do the only thing left and chew to relieve the stress. 

All I know for sure - apart from one dog we had 40+ years ago, who did suffer from seperation anxiety - because we never got him used to us leaving him gradually - no dog we have ever owned, has ever ripped anything up or even chewed on bones we left for them when we haven't been there. We just say "Go and lie down, see you later" - and they do. 

I'm not talking about dogs who willingly go into an open crate to sleep or chew their bone. I think these are more than likely going in there because there's another dog or children in the household - and they want to keep the bone for themselves, or just want peace and quiet away from people walking around the place and moving them out of way all the time. 

This is an review of a book by John Bradshaw who as studied dog behaviour for more than 25 years.


> Creating Expectations For Dogs And Owners
> 
> Bradshaw says humans also expect dogs to be companionable when they're needed and unobtrusive when they're not. City dogs, he says, are expected to be better-behaved than the average human child and as self-reliant as adults. But these expectations, he says, create problems for modern dogs.
> 
> ...


__________
Sue


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

I'd hate to see this thread turn into one of those pros and cons of crate usage.

I just hope the OP finds the proper solution so she isn't buying another mattress in two weeks.

Never seen a crated dog destroy a mattress! Might not make my dog happy to be in there, but it sure makes me happy to have a mattress to sleep on. Although, mine is getting lumpy and I need a new one.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Although it may "mask" the problem, what else is there? Short of erecting a kennel run in a spare room or basement, or building a nice big kennel run on the patio, there's nothing else to protect the home - and the dog.

And so what if it just "masks" the problem? As long as the dog is not destroying itself while in a crate, at least everyone is happy. 
People who say "it seems to mean to stick a dog in a box", would you rather "be mean" or come home to destroyed furniture, shoes, sheetrock, etc.??

Dogs generally just curl up and go to sleep while in a crate. It's certainly not the worst thing in the world.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

I've been reading the link that Sherry posted. 
http://www.dogstardaily.com/files/AF...ur%20Puppy.pdf 
IMO - it ought to be a sticky thread, if it isn't already - very useful for anyone with a new puppy. 

I'd like to make it clear that I am not against crates as such - I believe they can be very useful, for the owners and the dogs. 

For instance I'm willing to admit that a crate for a new puppy is a sensible idea - if used as Ian Dunbar recommends. But when I read on here, as I do regularly, that dogs as old at 8-12 months are still locked in crates at bedtime and when the owner's at work, I just can't understand it. 

Btw I'm not refering to rescued, fostered or the 2 week shutdown of rehomed adult dogs. I'm refering to family dogs who are going to be lifetime companions. 

I think crates as a safe refuge and a place to sleep are a brilliant idea, as long as the dog enjoys going in there of his own accord - and the crate is left open. But I don't like the idea that the dogs are locked in routinely when the owners go out. 

Now I know this seems like a total contradiction - but we are thinking of getting one for Jake, because at the moment we have to lock him in another room when visitors turn up, because of his possible aggression. It would be nice if he could stay in the same room as them. That being said, space is a problem - we really don't want to have to move other needed furniture to make space for a crate - we're still thinking on that. 
_____________
Sue


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

jakes mom said:


> ....For instance I'm willing to admit that a crate for a new puppy is a sensible idea - if used as Ian Dunbar recommends. But when I read on here, as I do regularly, *that dogs as old at 8-12 months are still locked in crates at bedtime and when the owner's at work*, I just can't understand it.
> 
> Btw I'm not refering to rescued, fostered or the 2 week shutdown of rehomed adult dogs. I'm refering to family dogs who are going to be lifetime companions....


Do you have multiple dogs? My worry is primarily in four dogs running lose in a house all day and what might happen between them. My two oldest have been out of a crate for years. The two youngest haven't earned that privilege when I'm away. And they won't for a time yet. 

One of the two still in the crate during the workday is not crated in the overnight. He actually never was crated in the overnight. The other guy has only been here a couple of months and the one time it was tried to let him sleep loose in the bedroom, the boyfriend lost the armpits out of his tee-shirt. Now, I thought that was outrageously funny and pretty gross, but boyfriend said we should wait before trying again. I said he should've put the clothes somewhere other than the floor....

I'm guessing multiple dog households likely use crates more than single dog households. Just a guess on my part though.


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

jakes mom said:


> For instance I'm willing to admit that a crate for a new puppy is a sensible idea - if used as Ian Dunbar recommends. But when I read on here, as I do regularly, that dogs as old at 8-12 months are still locked in crates at bedtime and when the owner's at work, I just can't understand it.
> 
> 
> _____________
> Sue


 
Tybor is 1 yr and still crated at night. He loves the cats but is way to rough in his play. I would never leave him unsupervised with the cats while I sleep. 

When I work and nobody is here to be with the dogs, Falko has free run of the house. Tybor is confined to the cellar. Once again, I don't trust his rough play with the cats and I would never leave two males home alone for any length of time.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Chelle

We've only got Jake left - but it's the first time we've only had one dog.

Before Jake we had 3 dogs an 3 cats. We had a safe place for the cats - but only one cat ever used it for some reason - I can only assume they weren't bothered about the dogs. 

Falkosmom



> Tybor is 1 yr and still crated at night. He loves the cats but is way to rough in his play. I would never leave him unsupervised with the cats while I sleep.


That's understandable 



> When I work and nobody is here to be with the dogs, Falko has free run of the house. Tybor is confined to the cellar. Once again, I don't trust his rough play with the cats and *I would never leave two males home alone for any length of time. *


I'd be curious as why that is - but I think we might end up hijacking the thread. 
__________
Sue


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

Jazz is 2.5 years old and still has to be crated when were at work because he becomes destructive. He gets a lot of exercise and we do training with him as well for mental stimulation. I'd love to be able to leave him loose but it's safer for him and my stuff if he's crated .

A couple of months ago I decided to try him loose and see how he does. I exercised the two of them off leash in the field behind my place for an hour. They ran and played and seemed tired. I went to Walmart for 1 hour and when I came home Jazz had destroyed 3 dvd's. Back in the crate he goes. I question whether it's an anxiety issue because whenever I leave the apartment to go get my laundry he's fine and sometimes I'm gone for 20+ minutes. He knows the difference it seems between going to get the laundry and me really leaving.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

sheep said:


> He's 2 years old, how long do you have him? If you guys have him for a long time and only in the last 4 days he's acting like that, then the reason is probably about something recent.
> 
> You've mentioned that he knows that he shouldn't go to the trash, and that you've started obedience training lately. How did he learn not to go for the trash?
> 
> ...


Sheep 

You're clearly not too happy about using the shock collar - and there really is no need to.

There are better ways to stop you're dog counter surfacing and attacking the trash. 

I'm generally into positive training - but on this one I'm not - I really don't appreciate dog and cat hair on the worktops. 

I can't guarantee it will work with your dog - but it always has with mine - and the cats as a matter of fact. 

Whenever your dog puts his paws on the worktop push him off and very firmly say "OFF" and turn your back on him for ten seconds or so. Don't tell him he's a good boy or anything just ignore him with your back to him. 

Don't use his collar to pull him away from the worksurface - you need to push him off with enough pressure to make him get off - not too much - you don't want to send him flying :laugh:. Do the same with the phone, and the bin. He's not going to get the message the first time - but you don't need to do it that many times before he does. 

Obviously just like the shock collar you can only do these things if you're there with him. So for a while - at least a month - manage the situation as well. Clean up before you leave him alone, don't leave temptation in his way - he's a dog after all - and put the trash either in a cupboard or another room. 

In fact it easier and wiser just to manage these things really. JMO 
____________
Sue


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## sheep (Dec 2, 2011)

jakes mom said:


> Sheep
> 
> You're clearly not too happy about using the shock collar - and there really is no need to.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the suggestion.  I'm wasn't very happy about the idea of shocking my dog at first, but after trying it, I'm actually happier with the results.

I prefer positive ways (management, positive reinforcement) to teach my dog, but I do use correction whenever I think is necessary and I can't figure out a positive way to deal with it. What I believe is that dogs and animals (generally speaking) are biologically capable of learning what's ok and not ok through aversive experiences too without it necessarily being that bad (traumatizing as some believes).

The e-collar has been effective in teaching my dog what he shouldn't go after (for example, counter is mean), as well as responding to the "no" or "out". The problem of corrections is that the dog learns that as long as the owner is gone, he can still go after things. But with the e-collar, I can correct him and make him think that it was the counter that corrected him and not me. Therefore, he will stop jumping on it after a few attempts. This is actually similar to people teaching dogs not to go to rattle snakes with the e-collar.

Also, the shock delivered is not painful, more like very annoying. Our skin reacts involuntarially in a quite unpleasant way. But of course, it can still hurt if one sets the shock level high. For example, my dog doesn't need a very high level, I've tried the level I apply on him on myself, and it's not painful at all.

Actually, before having the e-collar, I let him know what he shouldn't go after by a way similar to yours. I use body block and even slightly push him away, and I say "out" (like "off") while pointing to the direction I want him to go. I also use "sshht!" if I see him attempting to go after something. I find it that by acting like claiming space, I'm more effective at passing on the message.
But well, the problem of this method is that the dog still learned that as long as the owner isn't there, he can still get what he wants.
Also, with the hall phone for example, he learned to throw the phone to actually get our attention, since we always went back to him (even for correction) after hearing the crash.

We can of course manage many situations, but it would be restraining the dog's freedom all the time. For example, I wouldn't be able to leave him for a few minutes then (not even to the WC) as he might go after the kitchen dishes or hall phone.
Also, just imagine that he suddenly decided to jump at the cooktop (I'm not sure if this is the correct term - English is not my first language) after I finished cooking. It could really hurt him and I might not be able to stop him. He might have decided to jump coz he thought that he could get away with what he could get (potentially rewarding), since he associated going after counter = correction by owner and not going after counter = counter gives correction.


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

jakes mom said:


> I'd be curious as why that is - but I think we might end up hijacking the thread.
> __________
> Sue


Two reasons I do not let my boys home alone together. 

1.) Falko's failing health is not compatible with Tybor's puppy play. 

2.) Falko is a mature adult male. Tybor is a yearling testing the world, so very full of himself. I will not take the chance that he may challenge Falko when I am not there.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Falkosmom said:


> Two reasons I do not let my boys home alone together.
> 
> 1.) Falko's failing health is not compatible with Tybor's puppy play.
> 
> 2.) Falko is a mature adult male. Tybor is a yearling testing the world, so very full of himself. I will not take the chance that he may challenge Falko when I am not there.


Sorry Falkosmom, I hadn't thought about Falko's health. I just thought you didn't trust two males together. Do you think if Falko was well Tybor would try and challenge him? I always thought that was more of a bitch problem. My two intact males were great together - but there was only a two year age difference. 
__________
Sue


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## Sherry (Mar 2, 2012)

The author of this book is a respected dog trainer. 

Dr. Dunbar was born in Great Britain and grew up there on his family’s farm. He went on to study veterinary medicine at the Royal Veterinary College (London University) and animal behavior at the University of California in Berkeley.
Dr. Dunbar joined the Society for Veterinary Ethology (now the International Society for Applied Ethology) over 35 years ago, at which time he was the only member specializing in dog and cat behavior problems. Later he was involved in the establishment of the American SVE (now the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior).

Dr. Dunbar has written numerous books, including How To Teach A New Dog Old Tricks, the Good Little Dog Book and a series of educational behavior booklets on the most common pet behavior problems. He also developed, and for seven years wrote, the American Kennel Club's Gazette behavior column.



Sherry said:


> Hey, here is a free online book that would be very helpful. I know the title says, "Puppy" but in your case it is pretty similar because it is a new dog.
> 
> Here is an excerpt, "Most doggy "disobedience" and wanton house destruction
> occurring in the owner's absence has nothing to do with
> ...


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