# Please help! Need advice! About to lose our dog!



## Bondizzle21 (Jun 24, 2018)

Hi everyone, I need immediate advice about my German Shepherd/Belgian malinois mix, she has gotten us into trouble and my wife and I are so distraught and don’t know what to do. We moved to a new state for my wife’s work into a one bedroom apartment six months ago from a five bedroom house. We didn’t have much time to look for an adequate place for our dog bailey to play, so we only wanted to be here temporarily and we excersise her as much as possible. She’s 15 months old and has never quite grown out of her biting stage, although she has significantly progressed and just bites when playing. She also barks at people around the apartment complex and it’s an intimidating bark, but when people come up to her she just wants to jump on them and lick them. We have had construction workers working on our complex since day one and she barks at them the worst, and well, she slipped off her collar last Friday and ran towards a worker and jumped up and head butted his arm, but according to the worker she bit him and showed me a small dot sized mark on his arm that did not look like a dog bite, and the guy and his friends started talking in Spanish and saying they might have to take him to the hospital, but I knew they were exaggerating and were looking for an excuse to screw me over, but I was also at their mercy because my dog was the one who initiated contact. So they called animal control and we got slapped with a fine of 250$ for a permit to register her as potentially dangerous, on top of that we got a notice from our apartment that we have to remove her from the premises in ten days or get evicted. We don’t know what to do, she is our pride and joy and we love her so much, some people have suggested putting her down or re homing her, but both options have put my wife and I in constant tears just thinking about it. She’s so attached to us and can’t take being away from us and I would have an emotional breakdown if we had to put her down. Can anyone please give me any advice? We don’t know what to do. She’s such a sweet dog and yes she does get visicious if someone tries to take away a treat or bone but is instantly happy if you can distract her and get the item away. And yes she does bark at people a lot at home and gets super excited, when she bit that guy it was a play bite and not a viscous one, at the dog park she doesn’t bark at anyone and is actually the sweetest dog there. We just don’t know what the right thing to do is and don’t want to lose her.


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## Bondizzle21 (Jun 24, 2018)

This is our precious Bailey


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Have you asked in writing for a hearing to contest the dangerous dog designation? Have you researched the ordinances in your locale regarding dangerous dogs? Most importantly, have you hired an attorney? You really need an attorney to work through whatever the process is with AC and whatever administrative appeals are allowed -- it's all quite variable depending on local practices, so you need someone who knows what those are. If your state bar has an animal law section for the membership, they'll keep a roll of attorneys practicing in this area.


If you have a hearing, do you have a trainer who's worked with her who can testify? If not, why haven't you done some professional training, given the serious issues that you've described?



Hopefully you have renter's or canine liability insurance that covers her -- it's also essential. If you do, make sure the complex knows you have separate insurance for the dog. 

If your dog ends up having to be given up to a shelter, she will be put down with this history in most places. She won't be put up for adoption. She's also unlikely to be a rescue candidate with an animal control history and dangerous dog designation. If this all proceeds as you describe, what about dog-friendly hotel lodging until you can find another apartment?


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

holy cow, an attorney is your first course of action. Also check with Apartments.com. You might be able to find another place to move to. Other than that I have no clue.


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## dogbyte (Apr 5, 2002)

If the worst occurs, contact Julie through the Facebook site for the Malinois Ranch Rescue. If they have room they will take her. They have taken much more serious bite cases. They have fosters i other states and I have helped transport dogs that were being moved almost the entire length of the country. Prayers you can keep her.


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## Judy Untamed (Oct 26, 2018)

I don't know how viable this idea is...but if it could work out, you might consider a "board and train" facility that specializes in these kinds of dogs. It's pricey, but it gives her a safe place to stay while at the same time getting some excellent training that will help her mature into a more easily controlled dog. In the meantime, while she's "away at school" you can look for a more suitable living situation. 

She looks like an awesome dog and I agree wholeheartedly that you shouldn't just give up on her!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Lawyer. And start looking for a place for her to go while you find a new place to live.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I live in Canada where we aren't quite so quick to sue, so advice I have echoes what others have said. 
Hire an attorney first and start researching trainers because I agree that these are potentially serious issues. Buy a muzzle and make sure she wears it at any point when outside. Do you have an out of state relative or friend that can care for her short term while you find another place to live? I understand that moving is difficult but honestly you dropped the ball here, and I know that is not what you want to hear but it's the truth. You spoiled your dog, failed to train her, excused her behavior and then put her in a position that was guaranteed to go bad. So find a board and train that gets her out safely and find a new place to live. Last but not least get serious about training and control because she is doomed to fail if you don't
I am the worst dog owner ever, I encourage idiocy and condone foolishness, but under no circumstances would I take a dog that is known to jump and bite out in public without a muzzle. I will also suggest a martingale collar, they can't slip them so easily.

Good luck

I just reread your initial post. First you contradicted yourself so watch that, but also clarify this if you would please: If you fail to get the dog out in 10 days they evict? With how much notice? Because I don't know what it's like where you are but wouldn't letting them evict avoid issues with breaking a lease and can you find another place in time?


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Also in Canada, and on flip side re: questions about notice to move. Here a notice almost seems like an eviction. But a notice is just a notice to suggest and possibly get you out of lease if you have one or want to. Find out if there is a tenant board and/or tribunal that you have to go through a process first before being made to leave.
Where I am, you usually get a chance to rectify situation whether be rent arrears, damages, dog barking etc. The saying here is, a landlord cannot evict you, only the landlord and tenant board can. and they have to follow law.
As for muzzle advice. yes. and record. record all interactions and situations where dog is vocalizing to contractors.
My old guy was a good bad dog...when he went after contractors/renovators who were on break, he made a huge entrance into their lunch circle....but mostly to wait for mango guy.
Mango guy always came last, sat alone, and when almost done with his daily mango, he would share with Gator.
Other guys got jealous and tried to spoil him with pear and cheese and crackers.
But he was prevented from the circle at first. Until they warmed.
It was a great time for him


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I agree with what everybody else said. Try to find somewhere that you can board her in the interim.


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## Leigh Fields (Mar 23, 2019)

I can't add anything in the way of advice, but I am SO SORRY this is happening to you. How awful!!!


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Get a lawyer. They may be at fault if they have set up an unsafe situation in your normal common area. Your dog was reacting to strangers in what she considers her home. If they allow dogs, they need to make sure there is a safe path for you to get around. A lawyer might be able to get them to reverse their decision.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I too am sorry to hear this situation has happened. But honestly, I've never known a Mal that head butted anything, so for me that story is a little hard to swallow...if they run after it they bite it. That being said, it can be play, so designating your dog for a minor minor injury as "potentially dangerous" seems a little overzealous, whether it was a bite or not!

If it were me, I'd first buy your dog a good Martingale collar so that slipping the collar would NEVER happen again, and secondly I'd make every attempt humanly possible to make amends with this individual that was bitten! 

At the same time I would also strongly dispute every aspect of the incident, and adamantly challenge the eviction warning (which translates into, stop posting about it publicly and get a lawyer!)! As far as I know, unless otherwise stipulated in your lease AND allowed in your state, 10 days is pretty short notice and usually not enforceable! But DON'T EVER LET SOMETHING LIKE THIS HAPPEN AGAIN! 

I hope it works out well for you and your dog! But definitely learn from this incident. Work on training, and buy a collar that the dog can't slip out of!


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

I'm just pointing this out for information that may not have occurred to you that I picked up on. Often times Company provided health insurance benefits require any (no matter how minor) injury that happens on a job be reported and be seen by a doctor. The friend of the person that your dog jumped on could very well have reverted to his primary language to explain it better to him. This may not help much other than seeing the other side and softening the cynicism.

I hope you can follow the advice already given and your dog doesn't suffer the full extent of possible outcomes.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I hope you get out of the current mess. Have you considered a martingale to connect the leash to. It is not a correction collar, but it will prevent her from slipping her collar.


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## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

I'm a bit unclear about the dangerous dog designation. Was there a hearing? Have you admitted fault? Did you give a statement at the time? Did the others involved give statements? You should be able to access all records You can almost always contest ruling higher up in the actual court system. 

I'm not sure about malinois ranch rescue but very few "rescues" take in dogs with a bite history.

I'd try a board and train for temporary until you can find another housing situation. If it were me I'd live on National Forest land with my dogs rather than give them up, but that's no long term solution.


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## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

If you are able to PM or post general location, there may be someone who can help you find temp placement for your dog while you find housing.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I would talk with a lawyer being on the "other side" of a "play bite" by a 2 year old pit who went through a heavy winter coat to nick my skin I can tell you that it took an awful lot for anything to happen with that dog. 

She had a problem as the dog continued to get loose and it mauled another dog. After 5 more calls by different people the dog was taken and PTS and I imagine a lot of what happens is going to depend on where you are living.

This dog actually WAS aggressive BUT your post has the same kind of language she used about her own dog so I think you need lawyer and real evaluation from good dog trainer. Julie Neal does know her mals......... 

There is zero exuse for being 15 months and not past the biting stage. You need to ante up now and work with a very good dog trainer and show that you have fixed EVERYTHING and try to see what you and YOUR ATTORNEY can do to work through the dangerous dog because they would have (after all that) let this dog be declared dangerous but it would have cost her a special containment system,, and a high dollar liability insurance policy specific to the dog.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

My problem with "dog bites" is they are so subjective. What is a "bite"? If the dog did not break the skin, did not bruise the skin, didn't crush any muscle or bone, is it a bite? Really? Maybe the owner should get a ticket for dog off leash or dog at large or whatever they call it in that state/town. If this is the first and only time this has ever happened, a warning would be more fair. People running stoplights and actually endangering lives of numerous people can get off with a warning. This is far less severe. 

If it happened again, sure go ahead and call the calvary. 

In my opinion, this should have been a red flag warning to the owners that their dog can and will jump at and possibly bite a stranger. I don't think this is a dog who would full on actually bite someone- meaning break the skin with their teeth. I also don't think this is a dog who would be involved in a prolonged attack. So I strongly feel the dog should not die because of this. 

I also wonder what would have happened to a lab, collie, small breed, if the exact same incident happened. There is a double standard for shepherds, rotties, dobies etc. I think this is why there should be very clear objective definitions of "dog bite". Everywhere. 

Now, this isn't to excuse what happened. Obviously the dog needs training, needs to be on a secure leash, obviously. Nobody would argue with that.

But, if this "bite" required no medical attention, did not break the skin, rip clothing, bruise the skin or do any damage that is visible beside a red dot that may or may not be due to the dog, well then let's take a step back and give this dog and owner a chance to change. 

I think everyone is on tip toes because of liability and I think there are many reasons for that and I'll avoid the elephant in the room there because this thread isn't about that. 

But for this particular dog, if the incident actually happened as described by the OP, that "injury" is far less serious than injuries I've gotten from cutting carrots in the kitchen. Or from running into the side of a lab bench at work. 

It really bothers me how liberal authorities are in the use of "dog attack" and "dog bite" and how poorly these are defined. 

OP- I hope you can find a temporary solution and work with an experienced trainer to address these issues. It can't happen again, of course, but I'm sorry that such a minor incident may lead to the death of your dog. In my opinion, that is a tragedy.


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## Pan_GSD (Oct 2, 2016)

im really annoyed by owners who can't control their dogs.
aggressive dog? that's fine. AS LONG AS you can control it. strong leash, strong grip, and a fail safe collar, fully contained back yard, no half open front door, etc etc etc.

you let a dog out of your grasp and even though it may not have hurt the guy, the person on the other end could easily have been a kid or an elderly.

this is no fault of the dog, and i would be sad if anything were to happen to the dog.

sick and tired of people who let dogs off leash in a leash-only area, thinking their dogs are 100% safe.


going off tangent here but people should really learn to control their dogs. put a muzzle on, get a harness, lock the door, raise the fence, whatever it takes.

if i could, i would absolutely take the dog in my house and keep the dog for the time being while you guys get the situation under control. don't you have like family members who can do that for you?


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I don't want to turn this into a political thread, so I want to be careful here, but if dog owners had anything close to the equivalent of the NRA to protect their rights, I think we'd be in a much better situation. Wish we did. Somebody needs to be a voice of reason, and bring some clear definitions and a better system into play when it comes to situations like this.

I don't think this dog sounds aggressive. 

I know someone who was killed walking their daughters completely UN-aggressive dog when the dog pulled her down by pulling on his leash. Stuff happens, it's horrible but that is part of life and I don't think labeling every dog who jumps on someone as dangerous is the answer. I also don't think a lab who jumped on someone is nearly as likely to be labeled dangerous as a GSD who does... and that isn't consistent or fair. Life isn't fair, and this is why GSD owners need to be especially responsible, but I do think somehow, dog owners need to come together and advocate for better dog legislation. 

I agree about controlling dogs, completely. Don't get me wrong, but I think the system, as a whole needs to get updated from when dogs actually were sources of rabies, and even a scratch could be a huge risk to public health. Now, in US, next to no dogs carry rabies ... and the legislation needs to start reflecting that, and also the dog's role as more than just property.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

My read on this is that it wasn't a bite. You know if it's a bite. (lots of blood for one thing) Next thing is check your state's (city's, county's) land lord tenant law. Then find a lawyer. Eviction is a PIA from my few attempts at renting to people. It can take forever. 



I would also look into the rescue community maybe just for someone to foster your dog until you get another place. But one thing to discuss with the attorney is your right to break the lease and move if they demand you move the dog. So far as "these types of dogs" I just don't see that from the post. 



One thing to consider is that moving may be the easiest route for you and your dog --- that way all of you avoid getting a stigma attached. You're gone, the dog's gone, hopefully they drop everything and it blows over.


This is stuff we all fear and none of us need. May it all turn out well for you and your dog. Please keep us posted.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I am shocked at the number of people stating that this was not a bite and they should protest/fight it. Whether the dog bumped or bit, whether it was playing or not it slipped it's collar and rushed a human. Had this been someone more fragile there could have been serious injuries. 
The simple fact that she slipped her collar to do this makes me seriously question the harmless play idea. 
No I do not want the dog penalized. But the owners need to step up and take responsibility. 
The OP stated that the dog head butted, then stated that it was a play bite, and opened with "my dog jumps and bites". 
This looks like a classic case of an owner excusing poor or even dangerous behavior. At 15 months that behavior is not cute, not funny and not acceptable. Unfortunately these are the types of owners that cost dogs their lives and give their breed of choice a bad name.
I hope that they are able to keep their dog and I sincerely hope they take the advice to get this dog trained ASAP.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

There is a difference between an intentional bite and a dog that accidentally scratches someone with a tooth while amped up. I agree the dog should be kept under control, but it happened and they can’t redo it. All they can do is make sure it never happens again.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> This looks like a classic case of an owner excusing poor or even dangerous behavior. At 15 months that behavior is not cute, not funny and not acceptable. Unfortunately these are the types of owners that cost dogs their lives and give their breed of choice a bad name.[/QUOTE
> 
> Entitlement????? Manners seem to fly out the window when entitlement enters the door. "He just wants
> to jump and lick"
> ...


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## clipke (Nov 14, 2017)

I feel as though unless there was actual physical injury, like wound, it'd be hard to prove she bit him. I'm not familiar with the law in regard to this, but I'd contest it if possible. If there's no wound, there was likely no bite. I have a hole in my hand from my exes dog biting me. It's pretty noticeable, and definitely not a small dot.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

clipke, I've been thinking this ever since I read the first post: if it had been my dog, I would have been grabbing for my cell phone to take a picture of the (supposed) bite!

If it was really just a little dot, I'm sure a photo would have made a huge difference to this whole situation. 
But like they say...hindsight...[sigh!]


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## Shane'sDad (Jul 22, 2010)

This is just one more in many threads started on this forum where the OP has had some "ideas and suggestions" from members with no response from the OP....in many cases here that's typical....start a thread...get members attention....get them emotionally involved and disappear ....I get there's a lot going on now in the OPs life......but if you can take the time to start a thread...then take the time to watch and keep up with it......


You say your dog has never quite grown out of her biting stage.....then you say.. head butted the guy....later changes to bit the guy ???.......I really--REALLY hope for the dogs sake that you can find someplace to board your dog while you get your living situation "fixed"....I completely understand why AC would want you to pay for a permit for a "potentially dangerous".. note they didn't say dangerous....they put potentially in front of the word dangerous....they could have picked up your dog and in short order euthanized it...and YES that happens somewhere everyday.....IMO you're very fortunate it didn't end worse than it did.....If I was your landlord I'd want your dog out also....Why would I want the risk of a "potentially dangerous" dog on MY property in this crazy "sue someone"....liability driven....hope you've got insurance world we live in today??...what happened here is just one more negative statistic added to a list somewhere... of dogs I really love....


To any new member who reads this thread don't put your dog in a situation like this....hire a trainer early rather than waiting until later... most new owners "think" they know what they're doing OR they "think" they can fix every issue by posting here.....NOPE !.....one of the first things ANY decent trainer would do would be give some advice on the "right" collar and how to fit that collar to your dog....I wish you luck...I hope this turns out for you and your dog...


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

This is a good reminder for everyone. No one wants to be rushed by a strange German Shepherd, even a friendly one. One of the first things we learned in puppy class is to wait calmly to greet people, then give permission to “go say hi.” Not that mine always do that, but we work at it. One of mine is not friendly at all to strangers and will not approach a stranger. The other is a bit more excited.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

While I agree that this doesn't sound like ..from a the post at least.. a "dangerous dog" deserving case. But, it was an out of control dog. My grandmother use to have a Chihuahua when I was little. She would chase kids and nip. She slipped the door one day and chased a 12 year old girl who SLAMMED her thigh on a metal car bumper (bumpers in the 70s were for real lol). She was a dancer and I recently saw her at a high school reunion. She still had a permanent deep dent in her thigh. And she was still angry. 35 years later. She said she hated the way her leg looked, it affected her dancing and the way she looked in dance clothes and cheer clothes. She quit both. Is it life ending? No. Was the teacup Chihuahua big enough to do more than rip her sock? Nope. It doesn't matter though. Our dog caused trauma. Period.

That said too, anyone who has never had a dog break out of a door, dig under a fence, or slip a collar has merely been lucky. Or they live alone with dogs, and have no kids or elders to make a mistake when they aren't looking. The important part is learn from it and change it. 

OP, take the time to update us if you can. People here care for sure. I agree you need an attorney. I hope you get to keep your dog and can get past this and work with a trainer who can help you with Obedience and proper collars etc.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Cometdog. Accidents can and do happen. And most of us know at anytime there is a fine line that our dogs cannot cross. 

My concern is statements made by the OP that indicate this would have been an anticipated outcome.

At 15 months the "puppy pass" has worn off and there is no such thing as a play bite - If I read the last few lines of the first post I see all kinds of red flags and denial.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

You don't have to have a puncture to be liable. 

I had to go to bat for a 3-4 mo. old GSD pup that was off leash and SCRATCHED a child by jumping up -- it was impounded by AC, held in the "bite unit" of the shelter for 10 days, and was going to be euthanized because it hadn't yet had its rabies vaccine due to age. The owners didn't want it back due to fines and liability. The shelter vet and I petitioned AC to spare the pup and release it to rescue -- it was going to die at 5PM, and finally at 1PM the AC director said we could have it if it was gone by the end of the day. That's all over a SCRATCH.

I've also known a dog that ended up in hot water with AC for jumping and knocking a kid down on the street. 

Another dog I know spent weeks in AC, had dangerous dog proceedings started, and was subject to a law suit that had a 5-figure settlement eventually because it was off-leash in the front yard, bounded over to greet the neighbor who was edging his lawn, surprised the guy and caused the string trimmer to slice the guy's leg (surface cut, no medical care needed, but still a cut). The guy claimed the dog bit him and the slice was from a tooth. His owners' lawyers spent 6 months resolving that case with both the injured party and AC. The injured party initially wanted the dog put down as part of the settlement, but with enough money offered decided to give up that demand.

So...bad stuff happens when dogs aren't under control.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

This thread is full of great examples of why it is bad for a dog to not be under your control regardless of their temperament of disposition. The girl I told about with the dent in her thigh. I had all but forgotten that ever happened 35 years ago. She has been reminded of it every single day.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Yes, the puppy pass has definitely expired at 15 months! And as these two videos show, there's no excuse for a dog that old NOT being trained. The first one was posted by clipke on the trhead about biting and jumping, and the second one is from the breeder of one of my dogs, who is working with her current litter. Pups that have not been sold yet are getting some early training, so they will adjust more easily when they go to their new homes:



https://www.facebook.com/tbirdgrl86/videos/pcb.2263275330360827/10214494395854454/?type=3&theater&ifg=1

Edit: how do I get this to be a live video instead of a link?


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## Kyrielle (Jun 28, 2016)

Heartandsoul said:


> Op, 16 different members offered 3 pages of advice and thoughts trying to help because you cried out for help but not once in these pages was there a response with an acknowledged thank you at the very least. It is a sad state when manners are absent and it needs to be taught and practiced for both humans and dogs. It helps keep both species out of trouble.





Shane'sDad said:


> This is just one more in many threads started on this forum where the OP has had some "ideas and suggestions" from members with no response from the OP....in many cases here that's typical....start a thread...get members attention....get them emotionally involved and disappear ....I get there's a lot going on now in the OPs life......but if you can take the time to start a thread...then take the time to watch and keep up with it......


So, I'm gonna totally derail this just for the sake of these comments.

Guys. It's been like 3 days. People have lives. Ya'll probably shouldn't get all bent out of shape over internet people not saying "Thank You" or responding. Chill out.




Now just so I can say something remotely on topic, OP get a lawyer.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Somehow the link to clipke's post got edited out. Reposting:

https://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/9157813-post18.html


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## Shane'sDad (Jul 22, 2010)

Kyrielle said:


> So, I'm gonna totally derail this just for the sake of these comments.
> 
> Guys. It's been like 3 days. People have lives. Ya'll probably shouldn't get all bent out of shape over internet people not saying "Thank You" or responding. Chill out.
> 
> ...





Every member here who took the time and put thought into their answer also have lives....some have day to day very busy lives and yet only one member actually has a vested interest in the responses....that would be the OP.... the problem is his and his alone.....so NO I don't think it's asking to much to expect the one person involved in this thread who could actually benefit from the posts... that would be the OP...... to stay involved with the post... You see on rare occasions here with a few threads the OP does stay involved and actually does offer "thank yous"....but in 2019 I don't expect much in the way of..."please" or "thank yous" or just simple common courtesy and so...I'm usually not disappointed ......I hope the OP does actually finish this thread because I want to know the fate of the dog....as far as hiring a lawyer goes for the OP that will be a true reality check IMO-----OMG.. it's not always someone elses fault and yes I am responsible for what my dog does....pretty sure that's referred to as liability.....but I'm sure a judge could explain that better than me


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Sad if you have to hire a lawyer because your dog jumped on someone... reality check, yes, but tough way to learn. I guess it keeps lawyers, judges, paralegals in business. I wish it could be solved with an "I'm very sorry, I will pay any expenses, and I will ensure it will never happen again." At least the first time. And then do ensure it never happens again- when it comes to this type of incident.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Sunsilver said:


> Yes, the puppy pass has definitely expired at 15 months! And as these two videos show, there's no excuse for a dog that old NOT being trained. The first one was posted by clipke on the trhead about biting and jumping, and the second one is from the breeder of one of my dogs, who is working with her current litter. Pups that have not been sold yet are getting some early training, so they will adjust more easily when they go to their new homes:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Facebook doesn’t allow embeds, so you can’t make the video live here. They want to force people to log into their site rather than watching it on another one.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Bondizzle21 said:


> Hi everyone, I need immediate advice about my German Shepherd/Belgian malinois mix, she has gotten us into trouble and my wife and I are so distraught and don’t know what to do. We moved to a new state for my wife’s work into a one bedroom apartment six months ago from a five bedroom house. We didn’t have much time to look for an adequate place for our dog bailey to play, so we only wanted to be here temporarily and we excersise her as much as possible. She’s 15 months old and has never quite grown out of her biting stage, *although she has significantly progressed and just bites when playing*. She also barks at people around the apartment complex and* it’s an intimidating bark, but when people come up to her she just wants to jump on them and lick them.* We have had construction workers working on our complex since day one and she barks at them the worst, and well, she slipped off her collar last Friday and ran towards a worker and* jumped up and head butted his arm*, but according to the worker she bit him and showed me a small dot sized mark on his arm that did not look like a dog bite, and the guy and his friends started talking in Spanish and saying they might have to take him to the hospital, but I knew they were exaggerating and were looking for an excuse to screw me over, but I was also at their mercy because my dog was the one who initiated contact. So they called animal control and we got slapped with a fine of 250$ for a permit to register her as potentially dangerous, on top of that we got a notice from our apartment that we have to remove her from the premises in ten days or get evicted. We don’t know what to do, she is our pride and joy and we love her so much, some people have suggested putting her down or re homing her, but both options have put my wife and I in constant tears just thinking about it. She’s so attached to us and can’t take being away from us and I would have an emotional breakdown if we had to put her down. Can anyone please give me any advice? We don’t know what to do. She’s such a sweet dog and* yes she does get visicious if someone tries to take away a treat or bone *but is instantly happy if you can distract her and get the item away. And yes she does bark at people a lot at home and gets super excited, *when she bit that guy it was a play bite and not a viscous one*, at the dog park she doesn’t bark at anyone and is actually the sweetest dog there. We just don’t know what the right thing to do is and don’t want to lose her.


I think some folks should re read this post, pay attention to the bolded parts and especially to the bolded underlined statement at the end.
They know she bit him, and contrary to popular belief not all bites result in bloody, gapping wounds. The dog that CRUSHED my arm and cost me months of physio left only very tiny punctures. The damage looked really minimal except that my arm was twice it's normal size and I couldn't move my fingers or wrist.

I suspect the worker is blowing it up, but the reality is that an out of control dog, and a large one, jumped on him and nipped/bit/scratched whatever. Dogs require training and control, hopefully this girl gets the chance to be a good dog.


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## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

The person who started this thread appears to have gone. 

Last Activity: 04-05-2019 12:03 PM


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Kyrielle said:


> So, I'm gonna totally derail this just for the sake of these comments.
> 
> Guys. It's been like 3 days. People have lives. Ya'll probably shouldn't get all bent out of shape over internet people not saying "Thank You" or responding. Chill out.
> 
> ...


kyrielle, I don't normally go off like that but even if I did go off often, it is just an observation and an opinion that was made. I did open a thread in the chat room stemming from that observation, and there is some good conversation going on if you would like to join in. Most of the topic is not about rudeness but some of the reasons why an op shows up only once. Some I never considered. It's interesting if you haven't seen it or wish to offer your opinion.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

NancyJ said:


> Cometdog. Accidents can and do happen. And most of us know at anytime there is a fine line that our dogs cannot cross.
> 
> My concern is statements made by the OP that indicate this would have been an anticipated outcome.
> 
> At 15 months the "puppy pass" has worn off and there is no such thing as a play bite - If I read the last few lines of the first post I see all kinds of red flags and denial.


I agree that the puppy pass at 15 months is gone. 

In law there is no such thing as a play-bite. 

In reality, there is a few things that could be considered a "play bite." Some young dogs are incredibly mouthy, and they may grab with their teeth onto clothing, hair, hands, etc. Usually this would be someone the dog knows, a bad habit certainly, but not an aggressive or defensive bite, simply a mouthy-play type bite. 

There is also the spectrum of communication: barking, growling, snarling showing teeth, nipping, snapping, and biting. I know there is contact with a nip, and no contact with a snap (unless accidental), but a snap is a stronger form of communication in my opinion as it is accompanied with more of a startle factor and the dog definitely seems ready to bite for real, while a nip is like, well, if a snap is the equivalent of a human saying "I'm going to break your nose if you don't get out of my face!" than a nip is more like, "I really don't like what you are doing, please stop." 

How the law handles the various bites and reasons for biting is dependent on who you are, where you are, who your victim is, and who the judge/court/police/animal control are. It can have everything or nothing to do with the reasons for the contact or the extent of the contact. 

But, for us, the dog owner, it has everything to do with how we manage the situation. Communication/nipping can be training. Fear biting/nipping can be building confidence or using a muzzle or both. Unpredictable or unreasonable attacking might mean euthanasia. We may fight more to prevent court-ordered euthanasia if the contact was something that came from some reasonable cause. But, I think fighting court-ordered euthanasia also depends on who you are that who the dog is. I don't say that is a good thing. 

Personally I think the fraction of dogs that are wired badly or have a physical illness that causes them to be dangerous is so small that we shouldn't even mention it. Which means, most of the time, the reason the dogs have managed to put teeth onto someone is because we have failed our dog. Sometimes the owners of these dogs have allowed these dogs to become so dangerous before something actually happened, that they themselves are not equipped to change up their management and leadership and solve the problem. Sometimes these dogs will have to be euthanized. That is unfortunate. 

But I also think that a lot of folks are in the state of denial with their dogs and when they say stuff like "play-bite" they are unable to see what is right before them. What do you do with these folks? I dunno. Usually home-owners insurance or landlords do this job. When folks have to give up their dog because their dog is a serious liability and they just can't see it. They also learn nothing and are likely to repeat the scenario with another dog, maybe another breed, maybe a new housing situation. 

I don't know what the answer is. Just kind of walking through the possible problems. I do think that if the bite is really a nip, or a bite that showed incredible bite inhibition, I think as owners we go about dealing with the situation different, than if it was an outright offensive or defensive bite. 

And when dogs leap up on someone, toenails can cause tears/blood. Someone who is frightened of the dog in general may truly believe they were bitten. And it is still our fault, because our dog should never be put in that position.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

Imho, this is a case that isn't going to end well for the dog. People adopted a cute puppy, but in reality had no idea what they were getting into. No training, no control and now have no idea what to do. From the original post the incident was predictable. My advice is to place the dog with the rescue someone posted so hopefully a more responsible/knowledgeable owner can work with is dog. If nothing changes, the inevitable conclusion will be another mismanaged dog will be put down.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

Dunkirk said:


> The person who started this thread appears to have gone.
> 
> Last Activity: 04-05-2019 12:03 PM


That's ok, maybe this thread help new folk in the future to understand they need to research and the importance of training.


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## crittersitter (Mar 31, 2011)

Sorry but it sounds like you have to move or re-home your dog. If you do move and keep her because get some professional training for her. At 15 months old she should not be biting or becoming vicious when you take something away from her. I'm afraid you have gotten in a little over your head.


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## Pan_GSD (Oct 2, 2016)

huntergreen said:


> That's ok, maybe this thread help new folk in the future to understand they need to research and the importance of training.


well for "most" folks, if they want a GSD, they will GET a GSD.
no research.

and that really goes with any breeds, really.
it takes real responsibility to bring in an intelligent life form such as a dog.
it's not a toy that you play with momentarily and stash away in the corner of the house, but sadly, that's how some dogs are treated.

i see too many videos on youtube where dog gets obese, you can tell there's no exercise that is being done, and basically lives a sedentary life as a "therapy" dog for the owner who just comes home to cuddle the dog.
that just breaks my heart.

dogs are complex, intelligent beings, and they have needs and wants also.
and if someone makes the decision to bring a dog into their life, they should be willing and capable of stepping up to meet those needs.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Perhaps the OP is no longer posting, because he/she consulted an attorney. I imagine an attorney would advise against posting a legal issue on a dog forum. I could have sworn a member already alerted the OP to stop posting here. Someone usually does, in these situations.

The OP has probably read the advice, even if not responding.

Wishing you and your dog all the best.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

That is a good point! 

OP described a "head butt" and was uncertain if it was a bite, described it as a "small red dot" that didn't really look like a bite.

The thread evolved with more members seeming to doubt that the dog was just intending to play...
saying that dog needed more serious training...that OP had been too easygoing with the dog, etc. 
Of course that's not going to be a direction that's safe to go in, from any legal standpoint...

I do hope they find a solution for the 10-day mandate and don't lose their dog.


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## Kyrielle (Jun 28, 2016)

Heartandsoul said:


> kyrielle, I don't normally go off like that but even if I did go off often, it is just an observation and an opinion that was made. I did open a thread in the chat room stemming from that observation, and there is some good conversation going on if you would like to join in. Most of the topic is not about rudeness but some of the reasons why an op shows up only once. Some I never considered. It's interesting if you haven't seen it or wish to offer your opinion.


Cheers. Thank you.


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## germanshepowner (Oct 26, 2018)

crittersitter said:


> Sorry but it sounds like you have to move or re-home your dog. If you do move and keep her because get some professional training for her. At 15 months old she should not be biting or becoming vicious when you take something away from her. I'm afraid you have gotten in a little over your head.


Ugh. My dog just got attacked by a vicious 15 month old because the dog was ball possessive. My dog was just walking by and I didn’t even see a ball. My dog didn’t take anything either. It was because the owner was inexperienced and should 100% not have a GSD


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## dojoson41 (Oct 14, 2018)

ALL DOGS/ANIMALS BITE and ALL willdo so in their lives, so by their thinking all dogs /animals should be put down-NO WAY! This is so typical people either dont care or have no socalation with animals/dogs(helpers act the same on my farm with my farm animals) and make a mountain out of a molehill over small things like this to get a buck$. If I got bit by a dog/s (which I have and also by horses not mine as well) I would just say did it have it's shots, they pay any medical bills if needed and get over it. We had a case where the landscaping guy (helper) who didn’t speak English went thru a closed gate after the lady stood there and told him to stay out/beware of dog signs and saw the GSD in the yard but still came thru with the tool raised like he was going to strike the lady so of course the dog attack-that is what dogs do. Dog went to prison (pound) and there was a long legal battle to put the dog down but owners got a good lawyer and got the public/news on their side and dog's life was spared. If you want to keep your dog leave the apartment now and rent a small house with a yard, or you could leave that state for a better job elsewhere not to mention dog training. I could never put my dog to sleep for such a small deal like a bite-now if it was an all-out vicious mauling then that IS a different story.


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## dojoson41 (Oct 14, 2018)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> Perhaps the OP is no longer posting, because he/she consulted an attorney. I imagine an attorney would advise against posting a legal issue on a dog forum. I could have sworn a member already alerted the OP to stop posting here. Someone usually does, in these situations.
> 
> The OP has probably read the advice, even if not responding.
> 
> Wishing you and your dog all the best.


 YEP yer most likly right


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## dojoson41 (Oct 14, 2018)

selzer said:


> I agree that the puppy pass at 15 months is gone.
> 
> In law there is no such thing as a play-bite.
> 
> ...


 
 You are so right. WhenI took my 3 month old puppy to the fair for socialization like other dog owners so of course people with kids wanted to pet/play with him. Kid’s mom asked(wow) if they could pet the pup. My dog is very friendly and loves kids, I asked the family to stay calm, quite and use slow movements around pup so of course the young girl got excited and jumped into my pup's face and of course puppy wanted to jump and play so the girl got a little toe nail scratch on her. Thank God the mom was a sane person and told her kids that is why the owner (me) asked you kids NOT to jump at the dog andall was ok. We all miss those days.


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## Graychamp (Nov 17, 2014)

Magwart said:


> You don't have to have a puncture to be liable.
> 
> I had to go to bat for a 3-4 mo. old GSD pup that was off leash and SCRATCHED a child by jumping up -- it was impounded by AC, held in the "bite unit" of the shelter for 10 days, and was going to be euthanized because it hadn't yet had its rabies vaccine due to age. The owners didn't want it back due to fines and liability. The shelter vet and I petitioned AC to spare the pup and release it to rescue -- it was going to die at 5PM, and finally at 1PM the AC director said we could have it if it was gone by the end of the day. That's all over a SCRATCH.
> 
> ...


Good on you for saving that poor pup. 

Good lord. I get needing to control your dog but this isn't even an obedience issue. When did people get so soft yet malicious? Even if I got full on bit by someone's dog I'm going to be asking two things of them - cover my hospital/doctor visit (if it's needed) and proof that they were adamantly seeking the necessary training help for the dog and themselves to hopefully prevent such a thing from happening again. The problem is me thinking that people want to and are willing to put in the time needed. That's where the logic breaks down for me and I just don't get it. I didn't know what I was doing when I got a GSD but it didn't matter because I was ready and willing to do whatever it took to learn as I went and figure it out. More people need to be like that. If you want something cute that you don't want to teach get a tiny dog. But even then I advocate training any breed so I guess just get a fish.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

tim_s_adams said:


> I too am sorry to hear this situation has happened. But honestly, I've never known a Mal that head butted anything, so for me that story is a little hard to swallow...if they run after it they bite it. That being said, it can be play, so designating your dog for a minor minor injury as "potentially dangerous" seems a little overzealous, whether it was a bite or not!
> 
> If it were me, I'd first buy your dog a good Martingale collar so that slipping the collar would NEVER happen again, and secondly I'd make every attempt humanly possible to make amends with this individual that was bitten!
> 
> ...


I can't speak to Mals, but my GSD will head butt. She's not doing it out of aggression, but she has zero understanding of physics and how two objects cannot occupy the same space. Dog in the OP is half Mal, half GSD, so I don't know? (Now off to read the rest of the thread.)


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Magwart said:


> You don't have to have a puncture to be liable.
> 
> I had to go to bat for a 3-4 mo. old GSD pup that was off leash and SCRATCHED a child by jumping up -- it was impounded by AC, held in the "bite unit" of the shelter for 10 days, and was going to be euthanized because it hadn't yet had its rabies vaccine due to age. The owners didn't want it back due to fines and liability. The shelter vet and I petitioned AC to spare the pup and release it to rescue -- it was going to die at 5PM, and finally at 1PM the AC director said we could have it if it was gone by the end of the day. That's all over a SCRATCH.
> 
> ...


Yes. My state has strict liability dog bite laws, and the dog doesn't have to touch the person for it to be a problem. If she's the "but for" factor in an injury, that's really all it takes. So in the case of startling someone who falls down, it counts. I'm less and less in favor of strict liability and much more in favor of balanced laws that *actually* take into account what if any provocation exists (our law has something about provocation in the wording, but it's basically impossible to actually prove it). It's why my dog is never off leash unless we're in an off leash park, or in my own backyard. She's calm, well trained, and responsive, but she's a large GSD and the "could startle someone" factor is already higher than for a lot of other dog breeds.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Bondizzle21 said:


> Hi everyone, I need immediate advice about my German Shepherd/Belgian malinois mix, she has gotten us into trouble and my wife and I are so distraught and don’t know what to do. We moved to a new state for my wife’s work into a one bedroom apartment six months ago from a five bedroom house. We didn’t have much time to look for an adequate place for our dog bailey to play, so we only wanted to be here temporarily and we excersise her as much as possible. She’s 15 months old and has never quite grown out of her biting stage, although she has significantly progressed and just bites when playing. She also barks at people around the apartment complex and it’s an intimidating bark, but when people come up to her she just wants to jump on them and lick them. We have had construction workers working on our complex since day one and she barks at them the worst, and well, she slipped off her collar last Friday and ran towards a worker and jumped up and head butted his arm, but according to the worker she bit him and showed me a small dot sized mark on his arm that did not look like a dog bite, and the guy and his friends started talking in Spanish and saying they might have to take him to the hospital, but I knew they were exaggerating and were looking for an excuse to screw me over, but I was also at their mercy because my dog was the one who initiated contact. So they called animal control and we got slapped with a fine of 250$ for a permit to register her as potentially dangerous, on top of that we got a notice from our apartment that we have to remove her from the premises in ten days or get evicted. We don’t know what to do, she is our pride and joy and we love her so much, some people have suggested putting her down or re homing her, but both options have put my wife and I in constant tears just thinking about it. She’s so attached to us and can’t take being away from us and I would have an emotional breakdown if we had to put her down. Can anyone please give me any advice? We don’t know what to do. She’s such a sweet dog and yes she does get visicious if someone tries to take away a treat or bone but is instantly happy if you can distract her and get the item away. And yes she does bark at people a lot at home and gets super excited,* when she bit that guy it was a play bite and not a viscous one,* at the dog park she doesn’t bark at anyone and is actually the sweetest dog there. We just don’t know what the right thing to do is and don’t want to lose her.


Once again folks, the OP admitted that the dog bite the guy. There was no head butt. It may have been a restrained bite, I don't like the word nip, but a bite none the less.
As far as head butting, both Bud and Sabi would muzzle punch. I would guess it's what the OP was talking about, but I have had more then my fair share of black eyes and busted lips from GSD's who thought our heads should meet so apparently at least GSD's do head butt.
The dog reads as poorly trained, spoiled and improperly handled. I hope the OP is still reading and has sought legal help. I sincerely hope that they get the help needed and have many more years to enjoy their girl.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

dojoson41 said:


> You are so right. WhenI took my 3 month old puppy to the fair for socialization like other dog owners so of course people with kids wanted to pet/play with him. Kid’s mom asked(wow) if they could pet the pup. My dog is very friendly and loves kids, I asked the family to stay calm, quite and use slow movements around pup so of course the young girl got excited and jumped into my pup's face and of course puppy wanted to jump and play so the girl got a little toe nail scratch on her. Thank God the mom was a sane person and told her kids that is why the owner (me) asked you kids NOT to jump at the dog andall was ok. We all miss those days.


A number of years ago, I took Mufasa as a pup to a soccer game. He was a perfect gentleman, but one of the little girls did something and he put his paw up on her arm and there was a small scratch. She started crying and I felt terrible, but it wasn't my fault or the dog's fault and at least the parents understood that. You can't be too careful, but how the heck are you supposed to socialize young dogs to strangers of different sizes if we are all afraid of our own shadows? 

Are world is so upside down. A woman who is 8 months along stops her car in a parking lot and allows her 3 year old boy to pee in the parking lot because he wasn't going to make it to the toilet, and she gets arrested and faces 60 days in jail and/or a 5,000 dollar fine. A 17 year old boy rapes a one year old baby and he will see little or no time. And if your dog scratches someone, you can be sued or worse. They say the first 100 years are the hardest, well, I am glad that is half over because we live in a world I don't understand the rules to anymore.


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