# Penalty for lying about service dog



## odins_raven

Hello,

I have been doing some research on service dog laws (state and federal) and i have not been able to come across any sanctions for lying about having a service dog. With that being said, i can see no down side to telling people he is a service dog so i can bring him places with me as long as there is no penalty for me lying about it.

With that being said, are there any penalties (fines, jail, etc.) that can be imposed if you say your dog is a service dog but really is not?


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## lalachka

I know someone that does it. She's able to bring her dog everywhere with a fake license. No one will call you out on it, people are too scared to question a legitimate disabled person and make him uncomfortable or be open to a law suit. 

However, if everyone will start passing off their dogs as service dogs then soon there will be regulations and laws and it will make things harder for the people that really need it.


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## lalachka

Another thing to consider. Service dogs are usually well trained. People with fake service dogs don't have well trained dogs (I know 2 people actually). After a while people get annoyed enough about dogs not behaving and will complain. 

But even if your dog is impeccably trained, i still think it's a bad idea. I'm far from a law abiding citizen lol and this one just doesn't sit right with me


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## misslesleedavis1

I am in Ont and i see some people have them with just a doctors note, and they have went ahead and ordered service dog harness's for them from sites and walllah service dog. The one i am thinking of is for a little boy with multiple mental issues, they have a docs note and that was all they needed- I do not think the dog has its CGC or if it matters


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## Thewretched

I actually have a service dog, even thinking about doing this, makes you a terrible person. as for your friend, you seem to keep terrible company, and allowing it to happen makes you just as liable, service dogs are on par with wheelchairs, do you want to take a wheelchair everywhere too?

Sentence removed by Mod for containing pseudo swearing. 


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## lalachka

Thewretched said:


> I actually have a service dog, even thinking about doing this, makes you a terrible person. as for your friend, you seem to keep terrible company, and allowing it to happen makes you just as liable, service dogs are on par with wheelchairs, do you want to take a wheelchair everywhere too?
> 
> What the **** is wrong with you?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free Appc



You talking to me? About my friend?


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## misslesleedavis1

OP lying about having a service dog makes is not cool, not only are you taking advantage, you are setting up a situation were real service dogs may suffer down the road.


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## SuperG

odins_raven said:


> Hello,
> 
> I have been doing some research on service dog laws (state and federal) and i have not been able to come across any sanctions for lying about having a service dog. With that being said, i can see no down side to telling people he is a service dog so i can bring him places with me as long as there is no penalty for me lying about it.
> 
> With that being said, are there any penalties (fines, jail, etc.) that can be imposed if you say your dog is a service dog but really is not?



From 2012....about 16 states have penalties for representing a service dog fraudulently....misdemeanors in most all cases.

This link covers the laws state by state. Hopefully, it helps your research.

Table of State Assistance Animal Laws


SuperG


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## Thewretched

First part, OP, second part, you. If I had a friend that was able bodied and used a wheelchair in public, I'd put a stop to it, it's not funny, it's not cute. 


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## lalachka

Thewretched said:


> First part, OP, second part, you. If I had a friend that was able bodied and used a wheelchair in public, I'd put a stop to it, it's not funny, it's not cute.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free Appc



I didn't say it was funny or cute, I said it was a bad idea and explained why. However, I can't put a stop to it. I don't believe in snitching and she didn't ask for my permission before doing it. She's also not a friend. Neither is the second person.


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## Thewretched

Then I don't suggest referring to them as a friend, "a terrible person I know loved to break laws." May have been a better sentence. What you said could easily been misread as "I have a friend that does it and it's easy, go ahead and do it!" 

People dumb enough to even think about doing this need to be scolded like a child so they know, in no way, is this a good thing. 


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## lalachka

Thewretched said:


> Then I don't suggest referring to them as a friend, "a terrible person I know loved to break laws." May have been a better sentence. What you said could easily been misread as "I have a friend that does it and it's easy, go ahead and do it!"
> 
> People dumb enough to even think about doing this need to be scolded like a child so they know, in no way, is this a good thing.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free Appc



I said 'I know someone that does it'. And I can name many things worst than passing off a dog for a service dog. But as I said a few times already, I think it's a bad idea. 

I did answer the op's question, as best as I can. People don't come here to be scolded. 
Then I gave my opinion.


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## Lilie

odins_raven said:


> Hello,
> 
> With that being said, are there any penalties (fines, jail, etc.) that can be imposed if you say your dog is a service dog but really is not?


I would imagine that should your dog bite someone while you are representing him as a service dog - then the punishment for said bite would be greater as you knowingly and willfully broke the law by stating he was a service dog.


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## odins_raven

Wow.... looks like i poked the hornets nest on this one. Not trying to turn this into an ethical debate but i do want to clarify my position. First and foremost, i meant no offense/disrespect to anyone with a service animal. I have no intention of taking him in public unless he is trained well enough to act like a real service dog would in public situations, i would not want to give service dogs a bad name, or any service animal for that matter. My dog provides me a lot of comfort for personal reasons and while i could go to the doctor and do things the right way for my situation, i would be labeled by insurance companies for the rest of my life. 

Saying that this will make it harder for people down the road is a bit misleading, you could easily compare this to the debate over gun registration laws. A law abiding citizen following the correct process will have no issue getting their service animal registered, you already followed the process today if you have a service animal and followed the rules. Also, everyone will always have their own opinion so for those who strongly disagree with me, lets agree to disagree, i respect your views. 

Thanks to the person who posted that table with state laws, my state was on there and there is no law/penalty for misrepresentation. My state laws don't even require a service animal to be registered. Also, my state laws clearly state that even a puppy who is in training or will some day be a service dog (and their trainer/owner) are afforded the same rights the ADA provides disabled people. We are planning on bringing him to service dog training classes anyway, so technically i am following the law in my state. (for those who think i am breaking the law, even though there is no law i would be breaking in my state either way)


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## Thewretched

PM me for helpful info on the matter


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## SuperG

odins_raven said:


> Wow.... looks like i poked the hornets nest on this one. Not trying to turn this into an ethical debate but i do want to clarify my position. First and foremost, i meant no offense/disrespect to anyone with a service animal. I have no intention of taking him in public unless he is trained well enough to act like a real service dog would in public situations, i would not want to give service dogs a bad name, or any service animal for that matter. My dog provides me a lot of comfort for personal reasons and while i could go to the doctor and do things the right way for my situation, i would be labeled by insurance companies for the rest of my life.
> 
> Saying that this will make it harder for people down the road is a bit misleading, you could easily compare this to the debate over gun registration laws. A law abiding citizen following the correct process will have no issue getting their service animal registered, you already followed the process today if you have a service animal and followed the rules. Also, everyone will always have their own opinion so for those who strongly disagree with me, lets agree to disagree, i respect your views.
> 
> Thanks to the person who posted that table with state laws, my state was on there and there is no law/penalty for misrepresentation. My state laws don't even require a service animal to be registered. Also, my state laws clearly state that even a puppy who is in training or will some day be a service dog (and their trainer/owner) are afforded the same rights the ADA provides disabled people. We are planning on bringing him to service dog training classes anyway, so technically i am following the law in my state. (for those who think i am breaking the law, even though there is no law i would be breaking in my state either way)


If I were in your shoes and planning to do what you suggest....please investigate the limits, exclusions and coverage your homeowner's policy provides for, with what you are planning. If you put your dog in a public place which normally has pet restrictions and any bad comes from it....make sure your insurance is adequate if you care. This day and age, if your soon to be service dog steps out of line in a pet restricted area.....it could get rather costly. I personally believe that a service dog attracts more attention at times in a location where dogs are not allowed...especially by children. All it would take is one snap, growl, nip etc to a young child in a store or wherever and the law suits will be flying.....

Continue to cover all the angles as you seem to be via your research and best of luck with the SD training.

SuperG


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## E.Hatch

"Not trying to turn this into an ethical debate" 

You started an ethical debate when you started this post. 

Don't expect people who have legitimately put the time and effort into owning a service dog not to be upset at someone who's lying about doing the same. 


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## odins_raven

Nothing has been done yet, simply doing research at this point so i can make an informed decision about this type of behavior and the consequences that come with it. Thanks for everyone's feedback.

Mods - feel free to close this thread if you want, guessing it will turn into a battleground, this is my last post on the issue.


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## lalachka

As I said, I can think of worse things than lying about a service dog. I wouldn't do it but it's not the worst crime out there. 

But what I meant when I said it makes it harder for legitimate service dog owners is that they will have more hoops to jump through, will have more business owners willing to ask them to prove their dog is legitimate and so on. So while they still can get their service dogs their lives will be made more difficult and from what I know, they already don't have it that easy.


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## Rocket

As a disabled veteran with a service dog I'll say this. Sentence removed by Mod for containing pseudo swearing. Don't do it.

Furthermore, *it is a federal crime to impersonate a service dog.*

It's nearly impossible to enforce because per the ADA I am not required to tell anyone what my disability is and Sammy is not required to have paperwork (as it's a violation of my HIPPA information).

Also, do you really want the stigma of having a disability? Blind, deaf, seizure disorder, severe anxiety disorder, PTSD, severe diabetes, etc..? This is something you WANT? Sentence removed by Mod for containing pseudo swearing. ... (or just misinformed about how "awesome" it is to be labeled "disabled"). I assure you it's not all that much fun to be on the receiving end of condescending stares from civilians that see my disabled vet license plates and then see my dog and ask, "what's wrong with you?".


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## martemchik

I’d kind of like to know what the reason is to have a dog with you 24/7. For me, most times its annoying to have to carry my dog’s leash with me if I have to pick something up, or move something. It’s annoying to have to watch for him (even when he’s heeling) and not accidentally stumble over him for some reason. As someone without a disability, my motion isn’t limited and I have full control of all my body parts, so it’s way easier for me to do something without my dog being there than when he’s with me.

I also hate the thought that a dog has to be with you all the time. People go to work, go to dinner, do things without their dogs all the time. It’s a dog, it’s not going to be mad at you for leaving it at home for an hour while you run to the grocery store. It’s not very difficult to plan out a trip (to stores) that doesn’t involve your dog being stuck in a hot car for a certain amount of time. I’ve noticed that going to a pet store (where the dog is allowed) is about three times faster without a dog than it is with one. Sure, I still usually take my dog, but if I'm out and about, and need to pick something up quick…I realize how much nicer it is not having my dogs with me.

BTW…it’s pretty easy to spot a “fake” SD. If you take one to a store, especially a pet store, a real SD would never stop working. No sniffing, no pulling, just following the owner and doing whatever the handler needs. I don’t believe any “pet with obedience” can pass for what I’ve seen out of real SDs. Even IPO dogs or more advanced dogs, wouldn’t heel the way an SD heels. The IPO style “attention heeling” although beautiful, would never pass for a service dog…


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## selzer

lalachka said:


> As I said, I can think of worse things than lying about a service dog. I wouldn't do it but it's not the worst crime out there.
> 
> But what I meant when I said it makes it harder for legitimate service dog owners is that they will have more hoops to jump through, will have more business owners willing to ask them to prove their dog is legitimate and so on. So while they still can get their service dogs their lives will be made more difficult and from what I know, they already don't have it that easy.


Murder, rape, child-molestation comes to mind. 

But really, passing a dog off as a service dog so you can take it places is pretty up there are the low-life-piece-of-raw-sewage list. 

Of course I would feel more comfortable if I had Babsy with me every day, wherever I go. She should be there when I get a filling. She should be there if I need to have stitches or a surgery. She should be there when I go to the bank or store and have to actually talk to people. She would make me feel a lot more comfortable. The question is, do I NEED her to be there, and the answer is no. 

For the OP the answer is also no. I am sorry, but, you say that you aren't doing it at this point, therefore at this point it is not necessary. And in most cases Emotional Support Dogs do not get all the same privileges as Service Dogs. 

The people that have serious afflictions to the point where they cannot function without the aid of a dog or another human doing, if possible, what the dog can do for them, those people need for access for their dogs. Everyone else needs to take their dogs to dog friendly places and leave their dogs at home if they are going where dogs are generally not permitted. 

It is not just that if you do it, 17 other people are going to do it. And for each of them 17 more people are going to do it. And while your dog is perfectly trained and social, many of those other dogs won't be. What a disabled person does not need is to be sitting in a restaurant and having her dog attacked by some faker's dog. 

But it isn't just that. It is the fact that people should not feel entitled to something that for others requires some type of diagnosis. We are an arrogant generation. We think that we hurt more than anyone else, we feel more than anyone else, we should be allowed more than anyone else. And our dog won't hurt anyone. 

Well, it does. The more abuses of this, the more people question it, and the more trouble people with real needs will have with it. And if you aren't sitting in a wheel chair with the dog's vest clearly stating what it is, then people will start questioning people who have legitimate service dogs. 

If you think that you qualify, go to a doctor and get disability labeled, and do it the right way. It will get your dog access to places that the rest of us can't take our dogs, but it won't stop you from being liable if your dog does something he shouldn't so you had better make sure your dog is bomb proof too. 

I could pass off one of my dogs as a service dog, all of us here probably could. I don't, for the same reason I don't park in handicapped spots: I don't need it. And I feel grateful that I don't. Maybe someday I will. And then, maybe I will figure it out that it isn't such a great thing to be able to take my dog everywhere. I'd rather have the restrictions on where my dog can go, than to have to have my dog with me everywhere. 

What is wrong with people? Really?


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## selzer

martemchik said:


> I’d kind of like to know what the reason is to have a dog with you 24/7. For me, most times its annoying to have to carry my dog’s leash with me if I have to pick something up, or move something. It’s annoying to have to watch for him (even when he’s heeling) and not accidentally stumble over him for some reason. As someone without a disability, my motion isn’t limited and I have full control of all my body parts, so it’s way easier for me to do something without my dog being there than when he’s with me.
> 
> I also hate the thought that a dog has to be with you all the time. People go to work, go to dinner, do things without their dogs all the time. It’s a dog, it’s not going to be mad at you for leaving it at home for an hour while you run to the grocery store. It’s not very difficult to plan out a trip (to stores) that doesn’t involve your dog being stuck in a hot car for a certain amount of time. I’ve noticed that going to a pet store (where the dog is allowed) is about three times faster without a dog than it is with one. Sure, I still usually take my dog, but if I'm out and about, and need to pick something up quick…I realize how much nicer it is not having my dogs with me.
> 
> BTW…it’s pretty easy to spot a “fake” SD. If you take one to a store, especially a pet store, a real SD would never stop working. No sniffing, no pulling, just following the owner and doing whatever the handler needs. I don’t believe any “pet with obedience” can pass for what I’ve seen out of real SDs. Even IPO dogs or more advanced dogs, wouldn’t heel the way an SD heels. The IPO style “attention heeling” although beautiful, would never pass for a service dog…


People train their own service dogs though, and they are not all strictly following the same protocol. A cardiac alert dog, or a siezure dog may not heel the same way a dog might whose function is to stablilize the owner or pick up stuff that they drop. Of course, I wouldn't know. I have seen some pretty badly behaved service dogs out there, but they could have been fakers.


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## Rocket

selzer said:


> People train their own service dogs though, and they are not all strictly following the same protocol. A cardiac alert dog, or a siezure dog may not heel the same way a dog might whose function is to stablilize the owner or pick up stuff that they drop. Of course, I wouldn't know. I have seen some pretty badly behaved service dogs out there, but they could have been fakers.


Sammy doesn't heel like a vision impaired service dog does. That's not what I need him for. He is attentive to me, and knows what I need and provides that. I do let people pet him if they ask, but he always keeps an eye on me. He knows to ignore other animals when we're out, or when he has his vest on. At home he's allowed to play with the other dog, or chase the squirrels.
When at a friends house he knows to wait for permission before playing with the other animals.

I usually have him wear his vest in public since my issue isn't overtly noticeable.


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## Mister C

E.Hatch said:


> "Not trying to turn this into an ethical debate"
> 
> You started an ethical debate when you started this post.
> 
> Don't expect people who have legitimately put the time and effort into owning a service dog not to be upset at someone who's lying about doing the same.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



Well said E.Hatch.



odins_raven said:


> Mods - feel free to close this thread if you want, guessing it will turn into a battleground, this is my last post on the issue.



Can't take the heat Odins Raven? If you were looking to cleanse your conscience then you came to the wrong place.





selzer said:


> Murder, rape, child-molestation comes to mind.
> 
> But really, passing a dog off as a service dog so you can take it places is pretty up there are the low-life-piece-of-raw-sewage list.
> 
> Of course I would feel more comfortable if I had Babsy with me every day, wherever I go. She should be there when I get a filling. She should be there if I need to have stitches or a surgery. She should be there when I go to the bank or store and have to actually talk to people. She would make me feel a lot more comfortable. The question is, do I NEED her to be there, and the answer is no.
> 
> For the OP the answer is also no. I am sorry, but, you say that you aren't doing it at this point, therefore at this point it is not necessary. And in most cases Emotional Support Dogs do not get all the same privileges as Service Dogs.
> 
> The people that have serious afflictions to the point where they cannot function without the aid of a dog or another human doing, if possible, what the dog can do for them, those people need for access for their dogs. Everyone else needs to take their dogs to dog friendly places and leave their dogs at home if they are going where dogs are generally not permitted.
> 
> It is not just that if you do it, 17 other people are going to do it. And for each of them 17 more people are going to do it. And while your dog is perfectly trained and social, many of those other dogs won't be. What a disabled person does not need is to be sitting in a restaurant and having her dog attacked by some faker's dog.
> 
> But it isn't just that. It is the fact that people should not feel entitled to something that for others requires some type of diagnosis. We are an arrogant generation. We think that we hurt more than anyone else, we feel more than anyone else, we should be allowed more than anyone else. And our dog won't hurt anyone.
> 
> Well, it does. The more abuses of this, the more people question it, and the more trouble people with real needs will have with it. And if you aren't sitting in a wheel chair with the dog's vest clearly stating what it is, then people will start questioning people who have legitimate service dogs.
> 
> If you think that you qualify, go to a doctor and get disability labeled, and do it the right way. It will get your dog access to places that the rest of us can't take our dogs, but it won't stop you from being liable if your dog does something he shouldn't so you had better make sure your dog is bomb proof too.
> 
> I could pass off one of my dogs as a service dog, all of us here probably could. I don't, for the same reason I don't park in handicapped spots: I don't need it. And I feel grateful that I don't. Maybe someday I will. And then, maybe I will figure it out that it isn't such a great thing to be able to take my dog everywhere. I'd rather have the restrictions on where my dog can go, than to have to have my dog with me everywhere.
> 
> What is wrong with people? Really?



I could not agree more. Thanks for turning up the heat Selzer.


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## my boy diesel

only the morally bankrupt do things like this
it is abhorrent behavior

eta just because you _can_ do it does not make it right


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## Lilie

Rocket - thank you for your service. You owe no one an explaination. As a country, we owe YOU the courtesy of not questioning your needs for a service animal. Sadly, due to the meatheads who don't feel they should have to comply with the law - you are forced to once again defend your rights to utilize a service animal. I apologize for them to you, as they never will.


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## Rocket

Lilie said:


> Rocket - thank you for your service. You owe no one an explaination. As a country, we owe YOU the courtesy of not questioning your needs for a service animal. Sadly, due to the meatheads who don't feel they should have to comply with the law - you are forced to once again defend your rights to utilize a service animal. I apologize for them to you, as they never will.


FWIW, I know a girl (not a friend, but a friend of a friend) who impersonates her dog as a service dog. Sentence removed by Mod for containing pseudo swearing. However, I do think there is a difference in someone's "criminal intent" to be a Word removed by Mod for containing pseudo swearing. and circumvent laws for their own benefit, vs. someone who's just ignorant and doesn't realize that what they're doing makes it harder on the people who actually need the service.
This girl is the latter, an ignorant person making Word removed by Mod for containing pseudo swearing. decisions because she's unaware of the impact it has on people.

I come off as the former because I don't want people to know that I struggle with a disability. I have DV tags on my truck, but most people only know of the physical injuries that I sustained. Not the Word removed by Mod for containing pseudo swearing. that is the darkness that fills my head.
As Word removed by Mod for containing pseudo swearing. as this is only 2 people (outside of counselors) know what I've been thru and how twisted my mind can get when it gets going, but outside of them I'd rather lie to people and tell them that Sammy is a imposter dog than let them know that I live in an inescapable prison trapped in my own skull. 

On the other hand, I don't have problems every day. Sometimes I go long periods where I feel normal.. but then there are those days, those inescapable days and it is for those days that I take Sammy with me.


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## my boy diesel

*And I can name many things worst than passing off a dog for a service dog.*
raping and murdering are the only things i can think of
do you even know how many people passing your dog off as an sd when it is not can hurt?
i am guessing you dont or you would not defend this behavior
saying other things are worse does not make it right 

two wrongs never make a right

ps i just read selzer reply and apparently we were thinking the same thing


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## lalachka

my boy diesel said:


> *And I can name many things worst than passing off a dog for a service dog.*
> raping and murdering are the only things i can think of
> do you even know how many people passing your dog off as an sd when it is not can hurt?
> i am guessing you dont or you would not defend this behavior
> saying other things are worse does not make it right
> 
> two wrongs never make a right


Was that my quote? 

Anyway, where do I defend it? I'm stating a fact. It's not the worst crime out there. Child abuse, spousal abuse, selling crack to kids, stealing from old people. Should i go on?

And then I say that I wouldn't do it and explain why I think it's a bad idea. 

You just look for things to call me out on, you miss half of what I say in the process.


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## Lilie

my boy diesel said:


> *And I can name many things worst than passing off a dog for a service dog.*
> raping and murdering are the only things i can think of
> do you even know how many people passing your dog off as an sd when it is not can hurt?
> i am guessing you dont or you would not defend this behavior
> saying other things are worse does not make it right
> 
> two wrongs never make a right


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## odins_raven

No problem with the backlash! Simply trying to do some research and i am glad that i did based on the strong response from the community. Like i said before, everyone has different opinions and as we can all see, they strongly support those opinions. This is just one of those subjects where people get very emotional and fired up about their beliefs. At the end of the day, i have the freedom to take my own actions whether you agree with them or not. And for everyone getting hung up on people "breaking the law" please keep in mind that not everyone here lives in your area and your local laws may not apply where they live. I was hoping for this thread to be informational for others who had similar questions in the future but clearly that is not going to happen


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## Rocket

sorry about my language, I tried to go back and edit the posts to remove the corse language but I no longer have access to edit.

Sorry!


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## Mrs.P

Just want to add that heeling doesn't = service dog one of my husband's combat buddies has bad bad PTSD and one of his pup's tasks(trained by an organization not owner trained) is to lead the way pulling him out of anxious/stressful situations looks like the dog is out of control but the dog is actually performing a task.


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## lalachka

lalachka said:


> As I said, I can think of worse things than lying about a service dog. I wouldn't do it but it's not the worst crime out there.
> 
> But what I meant when I said it makes it harder for legitimate service dog owners is that they will have more hoops to jump through, will have more business owners willing to ask them to prove their dog is legitimate and so on. So while they still can get their service dogs their lives will be made more difficult and from what I know, they already don't have it that easy.



Mbd, Read the rest of my post and get off your horse. I know all about the consequences. I wrote about them before you came here to educate me. 

What would I do without the morally upstanding people on this forum guiding me through life.


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## Rocket

Mrs.P said:


> Just want to add that heeling doesn't = service dog one of my husband's combat buddies has bad bad PTSD and one of his pup's tasks(trained by an organization not owner trained) is to lead the way pulling him out of anxious/stressful situations looks like the dog is out of control but the dog is actually performing a task.


:thumbup:


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## odins_raven

Here is some good info for anyone else researching this topic: Please Don't Pet Me


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## simba405

martemchik said:


> BTW…it’s pretty easy to spot a “fake” SD. If you take one to a store, especially a pet store, a real SD would never stop working. No sniffing, no pulling, just following the owner and doing whatever the handler needs. I don’t believe any “pet with obedience” can pass for what I’ve seen out of real SDs. Even IPO dogs or more advanced dogs, wouldn’t heel the way an SD heels. The IPO style “attention heeling” although beautiful, would never pass for a service dog…


I would bet you good money you couldn't tell the difference between some of the dogs I've known. Service dog style heeling? Word removed by Mod for containing pseudo swearing.


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## SuperG

odins_raven said:


> No problem with the backlash! Simply trying to do some research and i am glad that i did based on the strong response from the community. Like i said before, everyone has different opinions and as we can all see, they strongly support those opinions. This is just one of those subjects where people get very emotional and fired up about their beliefs. At the end of the day, i have the freedom to take my own actions whether you agree with them or not. And for everyone getting hung up on people "breaking the law" please keep in mind that not everyone here lives in your area and your local laws may not apply where they live. I was hoping for this thread to be informational for others who had similar questions in the future but clearly that is not going to happen



Hey....I was helpful and informative....

I probably am a bit different than many of the others who have strong opinions regarding the idea of disguising a dog as an SD in order to take the dog places where they are not normally permitted. Of course, everyone is entitled to their opinions and I have many....but...people are going to do what they are going to do just as I assume you will. I have come to understand that other folk's opinions will most likely not change another person's behavior if they have their mind set on proceeding as advertised. 

My goal with my latest greatest pooch is to be able to have her go anywhere and everywhere with me but still respecting the laws and enjoyment of others. So, even if my dog obtained behavior which would allow me to fake her as a SD...I wouldn't...it's just how I play the game...it is not contingent on what others do as I have to live with myself.

I do have to chuckle a bit as your original post was a powder keg and I believe you knew that going in...but that's fine..you obviously can handle the criticisms and slams many posters have thrown your way. 

At the end of the day, my bottom line on this whole debate is similar to all so many frustrations many have regarding "regulated" conduct by the citizenry....and that is simply...If the rules are not enforced than get rid of the rules.

SuperG


----------



## lalachka

Lol yep, i also think she knew it. It sounds like it was created to get a reaction. But maybe not


----------



## Mister C

odins_raven said:


> No problem with the backlash! Simply trying to do some research and i am glad that i did based on the strong response from the community. Like i said before, everyone has different opinions and as we can all see, they strongly support those opinions. This is just one of those subjects where people get very emotional and fired up about their beliefs. At the end of the day, i have the freedom to take my own actions whether you agree with them or not. And for everyone getting hung up on people "breaking the law" please keep in mind that not everyone here lives in your area and your local laws may not apply where they live. I was hoping for this thread to be informational for others who had similar questions in the future but clearly that is not going to happen


No problem with the backlash? Yeah, it sounds like you are going to ignore all of the advice you just received.

I don't think the people that commented are "hung up" on people breaking the law. They are upset at people like yourself who feel entitled to whatever they can get away with and don't seem to care what effect they have on others. 

So go head and use a fake handicap parking pass so you don't have to walk a few extra steps while you take your fake service dog into a business. It's not THAT illegal, right? You are so very special you deserve it, right?

Do you not see the negative effect you would have on service dog acceptance and the humans with real disabilities they serve? Really?

Your right to swing your arms ends just where the other man's nose begins.


----------



## martemchik

simba405 said:


> I would bet you good money you couldn't tell the difference between some of the dogs I've known. Service dog style heeling? Word removed by Mod for containing pseudo swearing.


Yeah...well trained service dogs heel differently than your regular pet dog. They heel way differently than an IPO dog. They're calmer, they're attentive to the handler, and are many times just very relaxed. 99% of pets, if they even know how to heel, are still looking to get to something, or are concentrating on something other than the handler, but still staying in heel.

Selzer...I wasn't talking about owner/handler trained SDs. I'm talking about people like OP...who think their "trained" pet is obedient enough to take into a store or somewhere else that the dog doesn't have legal access rights. There's a difference. And those that train their own, generally understand the standard to which their dog needs to live up to and their dogs are IMO very hard to differentiate from "professionally trained" ones.

Anyways...I've seen very few SDs and I've lived in two of the largest cities in the United States. Trust me, if someone came in with their "pet" and tried to make it look like an SD, I'd be able to tell. It's possible that someone who has trained for sport obedience could get by me, but I bet I'd be able to spot certain difference in the dog's demeanor.


----------



## odins_raven

I was not trying to get people fired up but had a feeling it was going to happen considering the topic.  

Just an FYI to anyone else, it IS a Federal crime in the USA to fake your dog as an SD however, i have not been able to find any information on the actual penalty for doing so, and whether it is a civil or criminal infraction. From what i have read, it seems that the penalty aspect of breaking the law is farmed out to the states, of which only about 16 have laws/penalties for faking your dog as an SD. I can definitely appreciate where people are coming from regarding this topic from all the research i have been doing, so for anyone considering doing this please take into consideration the outcome of your actions and how they could affect others, even if indirectly. 

Thanks to those of you who kept a cool head and stuck to the topic at hand, which was a factual discussion over the laws and penalties for faking your dog as an SD.


----------



## odins_raven

Mister C said:


> Do you not see the negative effect you would have on service dog acceptance and the humans with real disabilities they serve? Really?
> 
> Your right to swing your arms ends just where the other man's nose begins.


Thanks for making my point. People should be aware of the consequences their actions bring, BEFORE taking those actions. 

I made a general statement to get the discussion going, everyone else is jumping to conclusions about what i am going to do with my dog.


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## odins_raven

martemchik said:


> Anyways...I've seen very few SDs and I've lived in two of the largest cities in the United States. Trust me, if someone came in with their "pet" and tried to make it look like an SD, I'd be able to tell. It's possible that someone who has trained for sport obedience could get by me, but I bet I'd be able to spot certain difference in the dog's demeanor.


I believe this is why the law is the way it is, so people who "know" that a dog is not a service dog (when they really are) cannot mistakenly refuse service to a legitimate service dog. There have been numerous examples in this thread of service dogs that do not act like a "real service dog" because they are not trained for some of the more typical disabilities you see SD's used for like hearing impairment and blindness. 

Honest question: would you refuse service to someone you thought had a fake SD? (assuming you understand the charges/fines that can be brought against you for refusing service to a legit SD)


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## Mishka&Milo

All I can say to you is this. People like you and your friend are making the world even less pleasurable for me. The more fakers who take their pets places, the less welcoming people are to the REAL service dogs and the owners who have spent days and days to train a dog to put up with children grabbing its tail, people staring, laughing, yelling, humans barking in its face.... All of this just so I can be in a world full of liars and frauds. It makes me sick... Humanity never ceases to amaze me. And the dog, poor thing for having to go through all of that without training. I can only imagine the shock. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Rocket

odins_raven said:


> Honest question: would you refuse service to someone you thought had a fake SD? (assuming you understand the charges/fines that can be brought against you for refusing service to a legit SD)


Per the law if your service animal is disruptive or causing problems you can be asked to leave. Any real service dog (professionally trained or otherwise) would not become problematic.

So absolutely yes, if a dog was being problematic and I had reason to believe (based on service dog / handler interaction) that it was a fraud I would ask them to leave in a heartbeat.


While watching the world cup at a pub Sammy layed at my feet the entire time constantly monitoring me. When USA scored the whole place erupted, people jumping up and down screaming banging metal chairs on the concrete floor, it was loud, I was standing up cheering as well. Sammy stayed at my feet and never once payed any attention to the rest of the patrons at the pub. When I got up to hit the head (restroom) he followed at my side and stood next to the urinal and followed back to my table thru a heavily packed pub with no issue whatsoever. Layed back at my feet and when it was time to leave walked out with me and never even looked at the other people there.


----------



## lalachka

Mishka&Milo said:


> All I can say to you is this. People like you and your friend are making the world even less pleasurable for me. The more fakers who take their pets places, the less welcoming people are to the REAL service dogs and the owners who have spent days and days to train a dog to put up with children grabbing its tail, people staring, laughing, yelling, humans barking in its face.... All of this just so I can be in a world full of liars and frauds. It makes me sick... Humanity never ceases to amaze me. And the dog, poor thing for having to go through all of that without training. I can only imagine the shock.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



The 'friend' was from my post. It's someone at the park. So who makes you sick? Her for doing it and me for not lecturing her and telling the cops on her? Be specific.


----------



## martemchik

odins_raven said:


> I believe this is why the law is the way it is, so people who "know" that a dog is not a service dog (when they really are) cannot mistakenly refuse service to a legitimate service dog. There have been numerous examples in this thread of service dogs that do not act like a "real service dog" because they are not trained for some of the more typical disabilities you see SD's used for like hearing impairment and blindness.
> 
> Honest question: would you refuse service to someone you thought had a fake SD? (assuming you understand the charges/fines that can be brought against you for refusing service to a legit SD)


The point I was trying to make was that even if the dog is trained to do a different task than what someone might consider “conventional” the typical disposition of the dogs tends to be the same. The dog doesn’t look like its 100% focused on the handler (like you see in an IPO routine) but the dog is also not looking around at every single thing that moves and it just gives off the perception that it’s there for the handler and not for anything else. I think that’s extremely difficult to get with a pet…unless you’re training for it and most people aren’t. The way I’ve seen SDs walk and handle themselves is just different than what I would expect from a pet type dog in the kind of situation I’ve seen SDs in.

So…if a person is training their dog to that level of obedience, of course I won’t be able to tell. But I’m just talking about 99% of the pets and even sport dogs I’ve seen out in the real world and their disposition while out and about is just different than what you’d see from an SD. Even a K9…doesn’t give off the same energy as a service dog.

So of course I’d have a very difficult time telling the difference IF the dog was trained to that level…but I was speaking from personal experience and I don’t remember seeing a single dog that wasn’t trained to be an SD that has the kind of disposition you see from SDs. So maybe that clears things up? I just can’t imagine a dog that was raised as a pet, having that kind of energy about it.


----------



## odins_raven

Mishka&Milo said:


> All I can say to you is this. People like you and your friend are making the world even less pleasurable for me. The more fakers who take their pets places, the less welcoming people are to the REAL service dogs and the owners who have spent days and days to train a dog to put up with children grabbing its tail, people staring, laughing, yelling, humans barking in its face.... All of this just so I can be in a world full of liars and frauds. It makes me sick... Humanity never ceases to amaze me. And the dog, poor thing for having to go through all of that without training. I can only imagine the shock.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Just so we are clear, my dog has never been misrepresented as a service dog. I appreciate you sharing the negative impact this causes you so others considering this can consider the impacts their actions have on others.


----------



## martemchik

Rocket said:


> )
> While watching the world cup at a pub Sammy layed at my feet the entire time constantly monitoring me. When USA scored the whole place erupted, people jumping up and down screaming banging metal chairs on the concrete floor, it was loud, I was standing up cheering as well. Sammy stayed at my feet and never once payed any attention to the rest of the patrons at the pub. When I got up to hit the head (restroom) he followed at my side and stood next to the urinal and followed back to my table thru a heavily packed pub with no issue whatsoever. Layed back at my feet and when it was time to leave walked out with me and never even looked at the other people there.


This is what I'm talking about...unless a dog is trained for this type of situation, and unless it has the genetic temperament to deal in this way with that kind of situation, you're not going to slip the dog by most people. Even in a store...new sights, sounds, smells...most dogs will be reacting to these things, yet a service dog is extremely neutral to all of them and will hardly bat an eyelash or twitch an ear towards it.


----------



## odins_raven

martemchik said:


> The point I was trying to make was that even if the dog is trained to do a different task than what someone might consider “conventional” the typical disposition of the dogs tends to be the same. The dog doesn’t look like its 100% focused on the handler (like you see in an IPO routine) but the dog is also not looking around at every single thing that moves and it just gives off the perception that it’s there for the handler and not for anything else. I think that’s extremely difficult to get with a pet…unless you’re training for it and most people aren’t. The way I’ve seen SDs walk and handle themselves is just different than what I would expect from a pet type dog in the kind of situation I’ve seen SDs in.
> 
> So…if a person is training their dog to that level of obedience, of course I won’t be able to tell. But I’m just talking about 99% of the pets and even sport dogs I’ve seen out in the real world and their disposition while out and about is just different than what you’d see from an SD. Even a K9…doesn’t give off the same energy as a service dog.
> 
> So of course I’d have a very difficult time telling the difference IF the dog was trained to that level…but I was speaking from personal experience and I don’t remember seeing a single dog that wasn’t trained to be an SD that has the kind of disposition you see from SDs. So maybe that clears things up? I just can’t imagine a dog that was raised as a pet, having that kind of energy about it.


Completely agree with what you are saying, thanks for staying objective.


----------



## martemchik

odins_raven said:


> Completely agree with what you are saying, thanks for staying objective.


Yeah...unless I see your dog in action, I can't make any assumption. But statistically speaking, its unlikely that if you raise a dog to be a pet, you'd be able to slip it into an establishment as an SD. I believe you added that you are training an SD...so that completely changes the first situation you wrote about and makes my statements irrelevant to your situation lol.

I do have to add...I know people that raise puppies for Canine Companions, and they don't have the same public access rights as a full fledged SD. This is mostly because neither of the handlers are disabled themselves, and so they don't meet the requirement under the ADA. They do however call establishments they're planning on visiting, tell about their situation, and ask if it's fine that they bring a SD in training. The dog is always wearing a harness and his gentle leader so he is dressed like the public expects.


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## Rocket

martemchik said:


> This is what I'm talking about...unless a dog is trained for this type of situation, and unless it has the genetic temperament to deal in this way with that kind of situation, you're not going to slip the dog by most people. Even in a store...new sights, sounds, smells...most dogs will be reacting to these things, yet a service dog is extremely neutral to all of them and will hardly bat an eyelash or twitch an ear towards it.


Here he is that day. Not wearing anything identifying since I knew there would be huge crowds and didn't want any unnecessary attention, so he's just on a standard 6' leash. His "USA" apparel (headband) was put on after we got there. But he just sat right there below me at the pub for hours.


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## Rocket

Rocket said:


> Here he is that day. Not wearing anything identifying since I knew there would be huge crowds and didn't want any unnecessary attention, so he's just on a standard 6' leash. His "USA" apparel (headband) was put on after we got there. But he just sat right there below me at the pub for hours.


As we were walking out I heard people saying, "holy s... that's a huge dog, I didn't even know he was in here this whole time."

And that's how a service dog should be. People shouldn't know that he was ever there. The service dog should be silent (unless it's part of his service to "speak" to you) and just an extension of you that largely goes unnoticed.


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## WateryTart

What the OP is contemplating seems like such a bad idea for so many reasons.

I don't generally think call-outs are necessary, but I probably would go up to the line on this one. Someone I know wanted to tell an airline her dog was a service dog so that she would not have to pay for him to fly.

I did not say directly that she would be a horrible person for doing so, because I felt it would be disrespectful and unproductive to attack her. I did say enough to convey that I would think very poorly of a person who did something like that because it would be untrue and would make things more difficult for others in the future, and I did feel that speaking up - albeit softly - was the right thing to do rather than mind my own business.


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## lalachka

Since you mention this. Same person that passes off her dog as a service dog wants to pass him off as a service dog on the airline too except her reasons aren't to save money, she's ready to buy him a ticket, just wants to make sure he doesn't fly in the baggage dept. 

I don't know if this is how it works, passing her words on. Is it a noble enough reason if she's worrying about the dog's well being?

Once again, I wouldn't do any of it and I don't think lying about service dogs is acceptable. In case someone doesn't understand what I'm saying.


----------



## Rocket

WateryTart said:


> What the OP is contemplating seems like such a bad idea for so many reasons.
> 
> I don't generally think call-outs are necessary, but I probably would go up to the line on this one. Someone I know wanted to tell an airline her dog was a service dog so that she would not have to pay for him to fly.
> 
> I did not say directly that she would be a horrible person for doing so, because I felt it would be disrespectful and unproductive to attack her. I did say enough to convey that I would think very poorly of a person who did something like that because it would be untrue and would make things more difficult for others in the future, and I did feel that speaking up - albeit softly - was the right thing to do rather than mind my own business.





lalachka said:


> Since you mention this. Same person that passes off her dog as a service dog wants to pass him off as a service dog on the airline too except her reasons aren't to save money, she's ready to buy him a ticket, just wants to make sure he doesn't fly in the baggage dept.
> 
> I don't know if this is how it works, passing her words on. Is it a noble enough reason if she's worrying about the dog's well being?
> 
> Once again, I wouldn't do any of it and I don't think lying about service dogs is acceptable. In case someone doesn't understand what I'm saying.


FYI the flying is where you can get into some legitimate legal trouble... faking a SD to go to Costco or a restaurant and getting "caught" would likely result in just being asked to leave...... Doing it on a flight and getting "caught" can result in criminal proceedings and thru that you could be required to show proof of disability to a judge or have a doctor testify to your "need" without being specific as not to violate your HIPPA rights. I would advise against it..


----------



## odins_raven

lalachka said:


> Same person that passes off her dog as a service dog wants to pass him off as a service dog on the airline too except her reasons aren't to save money, she's ready to buy him a ticket, just wants to make sure he doesn't fly in the baggage dept.
> 
> I don't know if this is how it works, passing her words on. Is it a noble enough reason if she's worrying about the dog's well being?


I think that this is the reason a majority of the people out there do it, out of love for their animals. Who knows what kinds of environments and treatment they will be subjected to while traveling on a plane? Like lalachka said, not trying to justify lying about being an SD but i think this is the reasoning many people have behind doing so, thoughts?


----------



## WateryTart

Rocket said:


> FYI the flying is where you can get into some legitimate legal trouble... faking a SD to go to Costco or a restaurant and getting "caught" would likely result in just being asked to leave...... Doing it on a flight and getting "caught" can result in criminal proceedings and thru that you could be required to show proof of disability to a judge or have a doctor testify to your "need" without being specific as not to violate your HIPPA rights. I would advise against it..


I'll admit to wishing I'd known that at the time; it would have enabled me to persuade her it was a bad idea without potentially being a jerk about it.

I think the social pressure was enough; she looked embarrassed and backed off when I said in a rather disapproving tone that I didn't think it was a wise idea because it would make things harder for others if people claimed their pets were legitimate service dogs. But cautioning her with, "I don't want you to get in trouble" might have been a bit kinder.


----------



## lalachka

Rocket said:


> FYI the flying is where you can get into some legitimate legal trouble... faking a SD to go to Costco or a restaurant and getting "caught" would likely result in just being asked to leave...... Doing it on a flight and getting "caught" can result in criminal proceedings and thru that you could be required to show proof of disability to a judge or have a doctor testify to your "need" without being specific as not to violate your HIPPA rights. I would advise against it..


Tell me about it. I thought she was crazy and told her so. Not sure what she will end up doing. 

Also, everyone here is up in arms that I know someone who does it and I haven't put a stop to it. Who here would tell on someone they knew lied about service dog?

Is that a noble thing to do? So someone trusts you with some info and you go turn them in? I don't like the service dog scams but I dislike snitching much more.


----------



## lalachka

odins_raven said:


> I think that this is the reason a majority of the people out there do it, out of love for their animals. Who knows what kinds of environments and treatment they will be subjected to while traveling on a plane? Like lalachka said, not trying to justify lying about being an SD but i think this is the reasoning many people have behind doing so, thoughts?


Yep, I can understand this one. If things are the way she explained (can't buy a ticket and a dog must go in the baggage dept unless it's a service dog) then I can understand the worry. 

I still wouldn't do it, for many reasons. But I understand the train of thought. 

If I had the choice I either wouldn't fly or would find a way to legally have him with me.


----------



## martemchik

Rocket said:


> As we were walking out I heard people saying, "holy s... that's a huge dog, I didn't even know he was in here this whole time."
> 
> And that's how a service dog should be. People shouldn't know that he was ever there. The service dog should be silent (unless it's part of his service to "speak" to you) and just an extension of you that largely goes unnoticed.


That's what I mean...that kind of temperament and disposition is hard to find and easily noticed when it doesn't exist.

I've never heard an SD handler really command a dog...they just do stuff knowing its what they need to do. So an extra heel, or even a sit, or a stay would stick out when you see someone that might not have a legit one.


----------



## WateryTart

lalachka said:


> Tell me about it. I thought she was crazy and told her so. Not sure what she will end up doing.
> 
> Also, everyone here is up in arms that I know someone who does it and I haven't put a stop to it. Who here would tell on someone they knew lied about service dog?
> 
> Is that a noble thing to do? So someone trusts you with some info and you go turn them in? I don't like the service dog scams but I dislike snitching much more.


I guess it depends on how you look at it.

I tend to think more along the lines of, they took that risk when they told you about it. You know, how three people can keep a secret only if two of them are dead? Once you (general) disclose something, you can't control what happens to it.

With that being said, I don't know that I'd "tell on" anyone. I guess it would depend on circumstance - I really don't know. I don't think I really care if it's "noble" or not to tell, though, because the person who is doing it assumes that risk the moment they share the information with someone else.


----------



## counter

I'll admit, there are times when I see dogs pretending to be service dogs inside grocery stores, etc. and I get jealous. I would love to bring one of my dogs with me wherever I go. I love that I can take them in Lowes, Home Depot, Petsmart, Petco, etc. Wish they could go everywhere else with me too, but they can't, and I would never break the law to try. I've also read, I believe on this very board a long time ago, about people who like to "test" the system. Their mindset was "if the store doesn't have a sign saying 'no pets' then I'll take my dog in until we get told otherwise." I've been jealous of their bravery (stupidity?). But will I ever take it that far? Nope. Why? Because deep down I know it's wrong.

I believe Selzer mentioned handicapped parking. You want to know what upsets me on a similar level? We frequent grocery stores that have Stork Parking or Family Parking (for families with infants or younger children), and 80% of the time, the spots are all filled up. I'm forced to park somewhere else, and then I see people who are not pregnant or have no children at all, getting in and out of those cars. Makes me furious, and I know my hands are tied. If I go complain to a store manager, there probably isn't very much that they're going to be willing to do for me. I can only bet that someone with a real service dog and/or handicap must be upset 10-fold what I'm feeling.

I've posted about some of my experiences with seeing fake SDs in grocery stores, and how I complained to the store workers/manager and they didn't/couldn't do anything.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...arting-see-more-more-dogs-grocery-stores.html

(Edited to add that above link)


----------



## lalachka

WateryTart said:


> I guess it depends on how you look at it.
> 
> I tend to think more along the lines of, they took that risk when they told you about it. You know, how three people can keep a secret only if two of them are dead? Once you (general) disclose something, you can't control what happens to it.
> 
> With that being said, I don't know that I'd "tell on" anyone. I guess it would depend on circumstance - I really don't know. I don't think I really care if it's "noble" or not to tell, though, because the person who is doing it assumes that risk the moment they share the information with someone else.


To me it's not about that person. It's about me. I would hate myself if I told on someone like that


----------



## WateryTart

lalachka said:


> To me it's not about that person. It's about me. I would hate myself if I told on someone like that


Okay.

I guess I don't see it the same way. I tend toward minding my own business, myself, but if the question is about whether it's okay to tell or not, I think it is fine and no reason for self-flagellation. I just might choose not to do so depending on the circumstances. I really and truly don't know what I'd do, beyond trying to gently discourage the person.


----------



## lalachka

counter said:


> I'll admit, there are times when I see dogs pretending to be service dogs inside grocery stores, etc. and I get jealous. I would love to bring one of my dogs with me wherever I go. I love that I can take them in Lowes, Home Depot, Petsmart, Petco, etc. Wish they could go everywhere else with me too, but they can't, and I would never break the law to try. I've also read, I believe on this very board a long time ago, about people who like to "test" the system. Their mindset was "if the store doesn't have a sign saying 'no pets' then I'll take my dog in until we get told otherwise." I've been jealous of their bravery (stupidity?). But will I ever take it that far? Nope. Why? Because deep down I know it's wrong.
> 
> I believe Selzer mentioned handicapped parking. You want to know what upsets me on a similar level? We frequent grocery stores that have Stork Parking or Family Parking (for families with infants or younger children), and 80% of the time, the spots are all filled up. I'm forced to park somewhere else, and then I see people who are not pregnant or have no children at all, getting in and out of those cars. Makes me furious, and I know my hands are tied. If I go complain to a store manager, there probably isn't very much that they're going to be willing to do for me. I can only bet that someone with a real service dog and/or handicap must be upset 10-fold what I'm feeling.
> 
> I've posted about some of my experiences with seeing fake SDs in grocery stores, and how I complained to the store workers/manager and they didn't/couldn't do anything.
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...arting-see-more-more-dogs-grocery-stores.html
> 
> (Edited to add that above link)


Lol I remember your thread. 

Lol, the two people I know that have fake sds started off as 'pushing the limits'. he did it one day when I was there. It was embarrassing and I walked away before he got told to leave. 

I don't know if it's bravery or stupidity but I couldn't do it. I hate giving someone a reason to tell me what to do. So that'd be my main reason.

Also, the two people I'm talking about are in their late twenties. Does that excuse them a little? Since everyone has done bad things in their lives?


----------



## counter

lalachka said:


> Since everyone has done bad things in their lives?


Speak for yourself!

I've NEVER done ANYTHING bad in my life. Haha!

Does speeding count? Oh, that's breaking the law. Oh ok, maybe I'm not an angel either. LOL.


----------



## Lilie

lalachka said:


> I don't know if it's bravery or stupidity but I couldn't do it. I hate giving someone a reason to tell me what to do. So that'd be my main reason.


What couldn't you do?


----------



## lalachka

Lilie said:


> What couldn't you do?


Going inside the store without first asking if the dog is ok to go in. The two people I know would go inside stores (before they got the ids) and count on no one noticing.


----------



## Lilie

lalachka said:


> Going inside the store without first asking if the dog is ok to go in. The two people I know would go inside stores (before they got the ids) and count on no one noticing.


And you are seriously wondering if that is considered bravery or stupidity on your part?


----------



## lalachka

Lilie said:


> And you are seriously wondering if that is considered bravery or stupidity on your part?


Are you seriously that stuck on finding something to call me out on? I was replying to counter and using his words.


----------



## Lilie

lalachka said:


> Are you seriously that stuck on finding something to call me out on? I was replying to counter and using his words.


You have replied to nearly every post on this thread. It's difficult not to respond to you. I'm not calling you out. You are just all over the place on this topic. Now I have no idea what "I was replying to counter and using his words." means regarding you wondering if you were brave or stupid for not breaking the law.


----------



## Mishka&Milo

lalachka said:


> The 'friend' was from my post. It's someone at the park. So who makes you sick? Her for doing it and me for not lecturing her and telling the cops on her? Be specific.



Her for doing that. It's annoying that no one stands up for what's right anymore, but I can understand. 


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----------



## lalachka

Lilie said:


> You have replied to nearly every post on this thread. It's difficult not to respond to you. I'm not calling you out. You are just all over the place on this topic. Now I have no idea what "I was replying to counter and using his words." means regarding you wondering if you were brave or stupid for not breaking the law.


It's actually not that hard. Put me on ignore. 

I wasn't wondering whether I was being brave or stupid, I was replying to his post using his words. It's a style of speaking, you use some of the words from the other person's sentence. I don't know how else to explain it. It's also not that hard of a concept. 




counter said:


> I've also read, I believe on this very board a long time ago, about people who like to "test" the system. Their mindset was "if the store doesn't have a sign saying 'no pets' then I'll take my dog in until we get told otherwise." I've been jealous of their bravery (stupidity?). But will I ever take it that far? Nope.


----------



## jafo220

My father-in-law is blind. He's had quite a few seeing eye dogs. All Labs. Great dogs. Very very seldom have they ever acted up if ever. Fact wise, if you didn't know he was blind, you would never know in a restaurant or other settings that his dog was present. That's how quiet they are. 

I think it's a huge disservice to REAL service dogs to try passing off a normal dog as a service dog. Service dogs are selected for the work they are to be trained for. If you decide to try this, better be ready to be called out. You just may run into someone with a REAL condition you're trying to pass off with a REAL service dog and they will spot you as a fake a mile away. I wouldn't blame them for reporting you.

It's morally dishonest and wrong. The penalty shouldn't matter. Just because you can do it and get away with it doesn't make it right. Whats bad is you know it's not right but still may follow through. All you will do is wind up adding to the problem and it only winds up hurting not the service dogs but the ones who need their service. 

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----------



## Lilie

lalachka said:


> It's actually not that hard. Put me on ignore.
> 
> I wasn't wondering whether I was being brave or stupid, I was replying to his post using his words. It's a style of speaking, you use some of the words from the other person's sentence. I don't know how else to explain it. It's also not that hard of a concept.


You can call it what you'd like. I call it crawfishing.


----------



## selzer

In the Harry Potter book, The Order of the Phoenix the Care of Magical Creatures class was learning about thestrals -- weird skeletal reptilian flying horse creatures that are visible only to people who have witnessed death. Hermione was talking about them after the class to her buddies, Ron and Harry, and casually remarks, "I wish I could see them." 

Harry tells her something to the effect that she better hope they remain invisible. 

This is kind of like seeing service dogs in banks, or grocery stores, and wishing you could bring your dog. It's kind of like being on your feet shopping, and seeing someone in a wheel chair and wishing you could be in one -- nuts, right?


----------



## lalachka

Nope, not like it at all. They're not wishing to be disabled, they just want to be able to bring their dog places.


----------



## misslesleedavis1

I wish I could bring my guys with me everywere all the time, at the nail salon, at moksha yoga. All I have to do is go in ebay and order him up a fully patched service dog harness but I am not a douchebag so I guess he wont be talking "fab summer colors" and "down ward dogging" with me anytime evr. 

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----------



## DobbyDad

Too bad. Why do they get to be special? Just because they think they are, doesn't mean anyone else does. Whet kind of a madhouse would stores be if everyone who owned a dog brought them. If they are lacking morals and do this, then I would guess their dog probably isn't going to be trained well and they probably will not consider themselves responsible for damages done by their dog. Even considering this really says something about someone's character.


----------



## lalachka

Wishing is not OK either now? There's a difference between wishing and considering doing it.


----------



## Lilie

Great post, Jason.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

My mother has done this with her dog. It drives me insane. She seems cluelessly proud of it and will say "What? He's my therapy dog!"


----------



## lalachka

glowingtoadfly said:


> My mother has done this with her dog. It drives me insane. She seems cluelessly proud of it and will say "What? He's my therapy dog!"



Hurry up and call the cops. Can't be enabling these monsters. 

I don't want to come off like I'm approving of this because I'm not but the stuff in this thread has gone a little too far. The reason I mentioned that there are worse crimes was not to say that this is OK to do but to say that people are attacking the op like they've never done immoral things themselves. 

Everyone has. Every single person. 

But it feels good to know there's someone that might've done something that might be worse than the stuff you've done, right?


----------



## selzer

lalachka said:


> Wishing is not OK either now? There's a difference between wishing and considering doing it.


Wishing that your dog has the same privileges as a service dog, is wishing you had a service dog. 

Wishing that you have a service dog is kind of like wishing you could park in the handicapped spots. It is like wishing you need a wheel chair. 

Frankly, I would rather leave the dog at home, and not have the disability. If taking the dog to places that he does not belong means having a disability, then how many people would do it? I expect those people who are taking their dogs legally into places, would much rather be able to function without them and not have the disability.


----------



## jafo220

lalachka said:


> Wishing is not OK either now? There's a difference between wishing and considering doing it.


Think about this ^ for a minute. 

OK. Wishing for what? That they could bring their dog everywhere with them? Or wishing they could pass their dog off as a service dog so that they could take them everywhere with them? 

Think about this. Do you think blind folks would have a service dog if they had to? My bet is no. I'm sure that a blind person would much rather leave their dog at home for just one day of clear vision. Just one day. It doesn't stop there. I'm sure others with conditions would much rather leave their dogs at home than have to spend one more day with the condition they have. 

No, you have people taking advantage of someone else's situation in order just to bring themselves happiness. To me, it may not be murder or rape, but it's pretty low morally. 

No one says it's not alright to wish for things. People wish for more money, better job, a new car a better situation. Those are examples of things to wish for. Being an imposter of a person with a condition is not something people generally wish for. I think that's what people are saying here, other than it's lower than a snakes belly in a wheel rut kind of low.


----------



## lalachka

selzer said:


> Wishing that your dog has the same privileges as a service dog, is wishing you had a service dog.
> 
> Wishing that you have a service dog is kind of like wishing you could park in the handicapped spots. It is like wishing you need a wheel chair.
> 
> Frankly, I would rather leave the dog at home, and not have the disability. If taking the dog to places that he does not belong means having a disability, then how many people would do it? I expect those people who are taking their dogs legally into places, would much rather be able to function without them and not have the disability.



From someone who wished, I'm telling you that this is not how it goes down. People see a dog in the store and wish that they can take their dog anywhere without connecting it to a disability. It's just an unrelated 'it'd be so cool if dogs were allowed everywhere. 


Your handicapped spot example. I've wished that too when I really needed to park and couldn't find a spot for 20 mins. Again, it was an unrelated thought, not 'I wish I was handicapped' but 'I wish this spot was open for public use'. 


You guys want to convict someone this bad? Now thoughts are being prosecuted too?
I'd love to be able to dissect everyone's thoughts. Lots of nasty stuff would come up. Some people are honest about the things that go through their heads and some aren't. That's the only diff. No saints here. Not on this board and not in the world.


----------



## selzer

lalachka said:


> Hurry up and call the cops. Can't be enabling these monsters.
> 
> I don't want to come off like I'm approving of this because I'm not but the stuff in this thread has gone a little too far. The reason I mentioned that there are worse crimes was not to say that this is OK to do but to say that people are attacking the op like they've never done immoral things themselves.
> 
> Everyone has. Every single person.
> 
> But it feels good to know there's someone that might've done something that might be worse than the stuff you've done, right?


We, none of us are perfect, true. But making it more difficult for people who are already at a disadvantage is just not very sporting, is it?


----------



## jafo220

lalachka said:


> Hurry up and call the cops. Can't be enabling these monsters.
> 
> I don't want to come off like I'm approving of this because I'm not but the stuff in this thread has gone a little too far. The reason I mentioned that there are worse crimes was not to say that this is OK to do but to say that people are attacking the op like they've never done immoral things themselves.
> 
> Everyone has. Every single person.
> 
> But it feels good to know there's someone that might've done something that might be worse than the stuff you've done, right?


Take advantage of a handicapped person's condition so that it can benefit me? Um, no, I have not. Yeh, piggybacking on some ones condition to benefit me is something very low. I know people do it everyday, and it still doesn't make it right.


----------



## selzer

lalachka said:


> From someone who wished, I'm telling you that this is not how it goes down. People see a dog in the store and wish that they can take their dog anywhere without connecting it to a disability. It's just an unrelated 'it'd be so cool if dogs were allowed everywhere.
> 
> 
> Your handicapped spot example. I've wished that too when I really needed to park and couldn't find a spot for 20 mins. Again, it was an unrelated thought, not 'I wish I was handicapped' but 'I wish this spot was open for public use'.
> 
> 
> You guys want to convict someone this bad? Now thoughts are being prosecuted too?
> I'd love to be able to dissect everyone's thoughts. Lots of nasty stuff would come up. Some people are honest about the things that go through their heads and some aren't. That's the only diff. No saints here. Not on this board and not in the world.


When the thought or wish strikes you, THINK "it's better to have to park farther away, than to be in a wheel chair" or "it's better to have Fido at home than to have a siezure disorder, etc." If you cannot connect the one to the other when someone points it out, then maybe there is something missing.


----------



## lalachka

jafo220 said:


> Take advantage of a handicapped person's condition so that it can benefit me? Um, no, I have not. Yeh, piggybacking on some ones condition to benefit me is something very low. I know people do it everyday, and it still doesn't make it right.



Where are you getting this from? I don't know what op's plans were and I'm not speaking for her. This thing is about my sentence about wishing about being able to bring our dogs everywhere. 

This has nothing to do with disabled people. I've seen dogs in stores and every time had a thought 'it'd be so cool if dogs were allowed everywhere. I'd take mine with me 24/7'. I almost guarantee you that no one thinks 'I wish I was disabled so I can bring my dog places'.


----------



## lalachka

selzer said:


> We, none of us are perfect, true. But making it more difficult for people who are already at a disadvantage is just not very sporting, is it?



I'm not supporting the decision to get fake service dogs. Not once did I say I was OK with it. 

Actually, my first post where I said that no one will question her because people are scared of lawsuits was sarcastic and bitter because it's sad that things are the way they are (people afraid to question the fakes). I wasn't trying to say that she should do it because it's that easy. 

I went on to say it's a bad idea and explained the problems disabled people have because of people that abuse this. 

Which part of this tells you I'm OK with this? I'm not. 

But I'm also not OK with people acting like theyre so holy.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

I can't call the cops on my mother for publicly claiming her dog as something he isn't, but I do challenge her. I think she sees it as somehow rebellious and funny.


lalachka said:


> Hurry up and call the cops. Can't be enabling these monsters.
> 
> I don't want to come off like I'm approving of this because I'm not but the stuff in this thread has gone a little too far. The reason I mentioned that there are worse crimes was not to say that this is OK to do but to say that people are attacking the op like they've never done immoral things themselves.
> 
> Everyone has. Every single person.
> 
> But it feels good to know there's someone that might've done something that might be worse than the stuff you've done, right?


----------



## misslesleedavis1

lalachka said:


> Wishing is not OK either now? There's a difference between wishing and considering doing it.


Wishing is fine! 

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----------



## lalachka

selzer said:


> When the thought or wish strikes you, THINK "it's better to have to park farther away, than to be in a wheel chair" or "it's better to have Fido at home than to have a siezure disorder, etc." If you cannot connect the one to the other when someone points it out, then maybe there is something missing.



I'm not connecting them because I'm not thinking of it from that point of view. I think it's obvious that no one wants a handicapped spot. But when I was desperate to find a spot I've had thoughts like 'I wish this was public space'. That's it. No strings. Without thinking that if this was public then handicapped people would have to walk farther or that if I had rights to park there i'd have to be handicapped

Same way sometimes I wish there wasn't a fire hydrant on my block, or the 2 cars on the street were closer to each other and space for a third one would be made. 
Or wishing I can take my dog with me to my sister's house. 

You know, random, useless thoughts. Wishes.


----------



## selzer

lalachka said:


> I'm not supporting the decision to get fake service dogs. Not once did I say I was OK with it.
> 
> Actually, my first post where I said that no one will question her because people are scared of lawsuits was sarcastic and bitter because it's sad that things are the way they are (people afraid to question the fakes). I wasn't trying to say that she should do it because it's that easy.
> 
> I went on to say it's a bad idea and explained the problems disabled people have because of people that abuse this.
> 
> Which part of this tells you I'm OK with this? I'm not.
> 
> But I'm also not OK with people acting like theyre so holy.


No one is acting holy. You keep saying things like, it isn't the worst thing you could do, and now it isn't ok to even think these things or wish we could. Of course it is natural to see a dog where they are not allowed and think, "I wish I could have brought Babsy." But then I quickly think, "No, I don't!" Because the reason that dog is allowed is because its owner has a serious problem that I don't have. Then that thought is history, and I go away happy that Babs is not allowed. 

People are going way beyond a quick thought or wish. They are actually pretending their dog is a service dog and taking them where the dog is not allowed. Making the thought or wish repellent, by equating it as being a wish to need a dog will hopefully prevent someone from going beyond the wish/nobody is going to catch me/ and if they do, what's the penalty to actually doing it.

Making people understand that people really do not approve of people taking benefits designed for disabled people and using them though they are not disabled, is not acting holy.


----------



## jafo220

lalachka said:


> Where are you getting this from? I don't know what op's plans were and I'm not speaking for her. This thing is about my sentence about wishing about being able to bring our dogs everywhere.
> 
> This has nothing to do with disabled people. I've seen dogs in stores and every time had a thought 'it'd be so cool if dogs were allowed everywhere. I'd take mine with me 24/7'. I almost guarantee you that no one thinks 'I wish I was disabled so I can bring my dog places'.


You mentioned everyone here has done immoral things. Everyone.

That's where this came from.

It has everything to do with disabled people. We are talking in a thread concerning the OP being curious about the penalty for faking a service dog, correct? That has intention written all over it. I don't know why you think the OP is not considering this being they started this thread. If you "wish" or are looking for advice about having an imposter service dog, the last place to ask for information is a dog forum where there are REAL service dog owners. It's like going to a Police forum (if there is one) and asking if it's morally ok to rob a bank.


----------



## selzer

jafo220 said:


> You mentioned everyone here has done immoral things. Everyone.
> 
> That's where this came from.
> 
> It has everything to do with disabled people. We are talking in a thread concerning the OP being curious about the penalty for faking a service dog, correct? That has intention written all over it. I don't know why you think the OP is not considering this being they started this thread. If you "wish" or are looking for advice about having an imposter service dog, the last place to ask for information is a dog forum where there are REAL service dog owners. It's like going to a Police forum (if there is one) and asking if it's morally ok to rob a bank.


Ah, bank robbery, I always wanted to do that. It sucks being a chicken!


----------



## lalachka

selzer said:


> No one is acting holy. You keep saying things like, it isn't the worst thing you could do, and now it isn't ok to even think these things or wish we could. Of course it is natural to see a dog where they are not allowed and think, "I wish I could have brought Babsy." But then I quickly think, "No, I don't!" Because the reason that dog is allowed is because its owner has a serious problem that I don't have. Then that thought is history, and I go away happy that Babs is not allowed.
> 
> People are going way beyond a quick thought or wish. They are actually pretending their dog is a service dog and taking them where the dog is not allowed. Making the thought or wish repellent, by equating it as being a wish to need a dog will hopefully prevent someone from going beyond the wish/nobody is going to catch me/ and if they do, what's the penalty to actually doing it.
> 
> Making people understand that people really do not approve of people taking benefits designed for disabled people and using them though they are not disabled, is not acting holy.



I agree, people need to be made aware that this is the wrong thing to do and the consequences it has on the people that really need it. I thought I did that. First I answered her question, then I explained why it's a bad idea. 

Acting holy is when you say things like 'disgusting' despicable, what's wrong with people' and I don't remember what else was said. 

That's when I started to say that this is not the worst crime out there. The way she was being scolded you'd think she killed and ate her baby.


----------



## misslesleedavis1

Wait. I wish my guys could go everywere is not the same as wishing they were trained service dogs. No I do not need a service dog at the moment, no I would never pretend that any of my guys were but yes an epic gorgeous doggy side kik hanging with me? Sentence removed by Mod for containing pseudo swearing. 

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----------



## lalachka

jafo220 said:


> You mentioned everyone here has done immoral things. Everyone.
> 
> That's where this came from.
> 
> It has everything to do with disabled people. We are talking in a thread concerning the OP being curious about the penalty for faking a service dog, correct? That has intention written all over it. I don't know why you think the OP is not considering this being they started this thread. If you "wish" or are looking for advice about having an imposter service dog, the last place to ask for information is a dog forum where there are REAL service dog owners. It's like going to a Police forum (if there is one) and asking if it's morally ok to rob a bank.



Oh she did consider it and I don't agree with it and I wrote that a few times. 

But I was replying about the wishing part. Somehow this thread ended up saying that wishing (not considering) is not OK either.


----------



## misslesleedavis1

I also wish I had a firmer ass and thicker hair but im certainly not insulting or burdening those who do. 

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----------



## jafo220

selzer said:


> Ah, bank robbery, I always wanted to do that. It sucks being a chicken!


I'm sure if you wished hard enough, it could happen. You could even park in the handicap parking spot with a fake handicap tag. j/k :wild:

What's frustrating is discussing something people should already understand without this in depth conversation. There are just lines you don't cross.


----------



## misslesleedavis1

No you are right jafo if you dont need a service dog donot pretend you do.

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----------



## lalachka

misslesleedavis1 said:


> Wait. I wish my guys could go everywere is not the same as wishing they were trained service dogs. No I do not need a service dog at the moment, no I would never pretend that any of my guys were but yes an epic gorgeous doggy side kik hanging with me? Absolutely, I dont think im a ******* or have a some sort of character flaw.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



Exactly!!!! You can wish for dogs to be allowed places without wishing that you were allowed to have a service dog. THAT I never wished and never would. 

I've wished that handicapped spots were public spaces before, I've wished that there were no fire hydrants. I usually have these useless wishes when I can't find a spot or when I can't find a way to go inside the store while out with my dog. 

Lol I've had these thoughts many times. I can't believe I'm defending them


----------



## jafo220

lalachka said:


> Oh she did consider it and I don't agree with it and I wrote that a few times.
> 
> But I was replying about the wishing part. Somehow this thread ended up saying that wishing (not considering) is not OK either.


 Did you miss one of my posts on "wishing"? There is a big difference between wishing to be able to have a service dog and then wishing you could bring your dog in too. Maybe for you, not for me. I'm not calling you a bad person for this, but then remember what this thread is about and what your talking about doesn't fit the discussion. I think that's where we got some wires crossed.


----------



## Thewretched

We'll this got out of hand. Let me add to this

I have a service dog, everywhere we go, dog has to go.

People stare at you, people ask stupid questions, people will run away from her, come up yelling at her. 

10min trips can easily get turned into an hour long trip with all the distractions. 

Anyone who thinks it would be fun, obviously never had to deal with it. Sure it's fun for one trip every week, but it isn't fun every single day of your life, 

guess what, when your dog is sick, you can't go anywhere

When she's having an off day, no trips anywhere, even work.

It isn't cute, it isn't fun, it isn't convenient, it is a DISABILITY, she is a wheelchair, 

Sure getting into a wheelchair and rolling around for 30min isn't the worst, some would say fun, but never leaving it, isn't fun.

Think about it.


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----------



## lalachka

jafo220 said:


> Did you miss one of my posts on "wishing"? There is a big difference between wishing to be able to have a service dog and then wishing you could bring your dog in too. Maybe for you, not for me. I'm not calling you a bad person for this, but then remember what this thread is about and what your talking about doesn't fit the discussion. I think that's where we got some wires crossed.



I thought I replied to them all. 
But that's what I'm trying to say. There IS a difference. Yes, at some point something got confused. 

And as I said a bunch of times, i'd never do this, i'd never consider it. I've done both illegal and immoral stuff, probably more than most and this one I'm not comfortable with, even with my background and the fact that I'm not all about the law. 

I don't know how else to say that I'm totally against it. 

I also don't think that she deserved to be belittled. Educated, yes, belittled - no.


----------



## jafo220

misslesleedavis1 said:


> No you are right jafo if you dont need a service dog donot pretend you do.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I deal with it on a personal level in my personal life, not on a daily basis though. Father in law is blind. He will never see. My cousin is bipolar and he also utilizes a service dog. He is young and the dog does wonders for him. These people, would trade leaving their dog at home in a flash just to have a chance at being "normal". That's why this kind of frivolous ideology bothers me. You want a service dog for the impaired just so they can go everywhere with you? It comes with consequences you don't really want. Then there is Karma. That would be enough to scare me off by itself.


----------



## jafo220

Thewretched said:


> We'll this got out of hand. Let me add to this
> 
> I have a service dog, everywhere we go, dog has to go.
> 
> People stare at you, people ask stupid questions, people will run away from her, come up yelling at her.
> 
> 10min trips can easily get turned into an hour long trip with all the distractions.
> 
> Anyone who thinks it would be fun, obviously never had to deal with it. Sure it's fun for one trip every week, but it isn't fun every single day of your life,
> 
> guess what, when your dog is sick, you can't go anywhere
> 
> When she's having an off day, no trips anywhere, even work.
> 
> It isn't cute, it isn't fun, it isn't convenient, it is a DISABILITY, she is a wheelchair,
> 
> Sure getting into a wheelchair and rolling around for 30min isn't the worst, some would say fun, but never leaving it, isn't fun.
> 
> Think about it.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free Appc


 Agreed.


----------



## lalachka

Thewretched said:


> We'll this got out of hand. Let me add to this
> 
> I have a service dog, everywhere we go, dog has to go.
> 
> People stare at you, people ask stupid questions, people will run away from her, come up yelling at her.
> 
> 10min trips can easily get turned into an hour long trip with all the distractions.
> 
> Anyone who thinks it would be fun, obviously never had to deal with it. Sure it's fun for one trip every week, but it isn't fun every single day of your life,
> 
> guess what, when your dog is sick, you can't go anywhere
> 
> When she's having an off day, no trips anywhere, even work.
> 
> It isn't cute, it isn't fun, it isn't convenient, it is a DISABILITY, she is a wheelchair,
> 
> Sure getting into a wheelchair and rolling around for 30min isn't the worst, some would say fun, but never leaving it, isn't fun.
> 
> Think about it.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free Appc



I've thought about it many times and I have endless sympathy and respect for the people that have to deal with this every day. 

I don't know who'd think this is cute or fun. I'm sure no one does. 

The people that want to get fake service dogs don't think this is fun, they just want to be able to take their dogs everywhere and are willing to do whatever it takes to achieve it. 

I don't agree with it and I won't do it. I wouldn't even consider it. For me it's not an option. 

Actually, I was surprised that the girl that I know did it. It did tell me something about her.


----------



## my boy diesel

*they just want to be able to take their dogs everywhere and are willing to do whatever it takes to achieve it. *
selfishness pure and simple
its all about me and who gives a flying fig who gets hurt in the process
makes me


----------



## selzer

lalachka said:


> I thought I replied to them all.
> But that's what I'm trying to say. There IS a difference. Yes, at some point something got confused.
> 
> And as I said a bunch of times, i'd never do this, i'd never consider it. I've done both illegal and immoral stuff, probably more than most and this one I'm not comfortable with, even with my background and the fact that I'm not all about the law.
> 
> I don't know how else to say that I'm totally against it.
> 
> I also don't think that she deserved to be belittled. Educated, yes, belittled - no.


Sometimes, an idea needs to be shut down with conviction, not pitty-patted around. Someone was darn close to passing her dog off as a service dog. And hopefully now she won't. Maybe it was all a ruse to make for some fiery conversation. But any outsider that reads this thread needs to see right off that dog owners think people are low-life-bits-of-raw-sewage if they actually do this. 

And, yes, people should not have to get all the way to a forum board to _learn_ why they should not do this. What _is_ wrong with people?


----------



## lalachka

my boy diesel said:


> *they just want to be able to take their dogs everywhere and are willing to do whatever it takes to achieve it. *
> 
> selfishness pure and simple
> 
> its all about me and who gives a flying fig who gets hurt in the process
> 
> makes me



Yes, that's what I was saying, get what they want at all cost with no consideration for anyone else. 

In case you, again, trying to make it sound like I'm defending something.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

This thread is actually provoking quite an interesting conversation with my mother. I think she is starting to understand why she should not have claimed her dog as an SD.


----------



## misslesleedavis1

Whys that? 

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## glowingtoadfly

Well, I am actually going to talk to my doctor about getting a prescription for a SD on Friday. I think it might have put things in perspective for her. She isn't a bad person, she is just kind of rebellious. There is karma directly in action! Although I don't know if either of my pups could be trained for it.


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## misslesleedavis1

Yes there is a couple on my fb who just needed a docs note for there daughters service dog. Then they ordered the harness and that was it.

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## simba405

Service dogs for most things aren't even a necessity. It's a convenience. How many vets have ptsd? I don't see a bunch of vets with dogs. 

Want a service dog and you're poor? Haha good luck! 

As much as people with no disabilities take advantage of the lackluster laws; people with minor disabilities do the exact same to take their dog places. 

Sorry to sound harsh but a dog for things like panic attack, ptsd or depression is kind of a joke. The dog doesn't do anything except hang around. Other people have the exact same sicknesses and they don't require a dog. It's a convenience. Just my opinion. Now let the bashing begin.


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## selzer

simba405 said:


> Service dogs for most things aren't even a necessity. It's a convenience. How many vets have ptsd? I don't see a bunch of vets with dogs.
> 
> Want a service dog and you're poor? Haha good luck!
> 
> As much as people with no disabilities take advantage of the lackluster laws; people with minor disabilities do the exact same to take their dog places.
> 
> Sorry to sound harsh but a dog for things like panic attack, ptsd or depression is kind of a joke. The dog doesn't do anything except hang around. Other people have the exact same sicknesses and they don't require a dog. It's a convenience. Just my opinion. Now let the bashing begin.


For me, the decision as to whether someone needs a service dog, or an emotional support dog ought to be with the doctor that manages the disability or issue. And the designation ought to be up to the doctor. For example, if an individual suffering from agoraphobia has been house-bound for years, and with a dog she can attend college and work, then the dog would be a service dog. But it would still be up to her doctor to make that designation. 

I suppose it would depend on how a condition hampers a person's life, and how the dog can improve it. 

If people who shouldn't be having service dogs are getting them, that would be on the doctors, wouldn't it? 


There are a lot of vets with service dogs.


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## Thewretched

We need an admin to take care of that post, disrespecting disabled people is not tolerable. 


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## selzer

Thewretched said:


> We need an admin to take care of that post, disrespecting disabled people is not tolerable.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free Appc


I dunno about that. Let it stand, and then everyone can make their own judgement about the person who made the statement.


----------



## simba405

Thewretched said:


> We need an admin to take care of that post, disrespecting disabled people is not tolerable.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free Appc


I disrespected you because I said some disabilities don't need service dogs? 

What disability do you have? Does every person with your disability have a service dog? I bet the answer is no. If the answer is no then it's CLEARLY a convenience and not a necessity. You call my opinion disrespectful? I call it truth.


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## lalachka

simba405 said:


> I disrespected you because I said some disabilities don't need service dogs?
> 
> What disability do you have? Does every person with your disability have a service dog? I bet the answer is no. If the answer is no then it's CLEARLY a convenience and not a necessity. You call my opinion disrespectful? I call it truth.




Faulty logic. Two people can have the same surgery and one will opt out of pain meds. It doesn't make it less of a necessity for the second person.

ETA and are you really going to ask a disabled person what disability they have?


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## selzer

simba405 said:


> I disrespected you because I said some disabilities don't need service dogs?
> 
> What disability do you have? Does every person with your disability have a service dog? I bet the answer is no. If the answer is no then it's CLEARLY a convenience and not a necessity. You call my opinion disrespectful? I call it truth.


Two of the disabilities you mentioned, PTSD and Depression -- I have both, but I do not have a service dog. And yet, both of those problems are so varied that the idea that a dog would be able to help the people the same way is inconceivable. 

I think that not everyone with a diagnosis for either of these would be prescribed a Service Dog. Some would be prescribed Emotionals Support Dogs. And some would not want a dog, and a dog would not make a difference. 

Not every blind person has a seeing eye dog, but do you counter that blind people have seeing eye dogs out of convenience?


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## glowingtoadfly

As far as I know, it's illegal for business owners to ask. They can ask what tasks the dog has been trained to perform. I think it has to be three separate tasks.


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## selzer

Some one waited for the mods to go night-night before having some fun. 

Having fun at the expense of disabled people says a lot too.


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## Mishka&Milo

simba405 said:


> Service dogs for most things aren't even a necessity. It's a convenience. How many vets have ptsd? I don't see a bunch of vets with dogs.
> 
> Want a service dog and you're poor? Haha good luck!
> 
> As much as people with no disabilities take advantage of the lackluster laws; people with minor disabilities do the exact same to take their dog places.
> 
> Sorry to sound harsh but a dog for things like panic attack, ptsd or depression is kind of a joke. The dog doesn't do anything except hang around. Other people have the exact same sicknesses and they don't require a dog. It's a convenience. Just my opinion. Now let the bashing begin.



So I don't have a right to feel as safe as you? Not everyone in a wheelchair has a dog. Not everyone who cannot walk has a wheelchair! But you know what, they deserve to. I would LOVE to be able to walk through a store alone. I would LOVE to not be asked what is wrong with me. If there was a way for me to function as a normal human, don't you think I'd rather not take a dog everywhere I go? It might seem like a good time for a while... But after enough times of being asked to sit outside, and being told by your own father to not be a bother.... I don't enjoy everyone knowing something isn't right with me, but you know what? Being able to look at something besides a floor is pretty nice. To know that, when I can't see, or speak... She is going to go get me the help I need. If I feel like I am going to fall, she can hold me up. 


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## Thewretched

glowingtoadfly said:


> As far as I know, it's illegal for business owners to ask. They can ask what tasks the dog has been trained to perform. I think it has to be three.



Service dogs are required ONE task by FEDERAL law, MOST known at least three, many times, more. 

They can ask you if it is a service dog, and what it's task is. NOT what the cause of the task is


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## simba405

selzer said:


> Not every blind person has a seeing eye dog, but do you counter that blind people have seeing eye dogs out of convenience?


Does every blind person need a dog? If not then yes it's convenience. Plain and simple. 

A service dog makes life easier but not required by any means. Are they useful? Of course. Especially for people with physical disabilities. 

But you people are lying to yourselves if you don't think people say things to doctors just to get a dog. Glowingtoadfly just said she was going to the doctor to get a note for a service dog. Happens all the time. Those people are just as immoral.


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## glowingtoadfly

So, for a person with panic attacks, PTSD, and/or psychoses, a service dog could be absolutely invaluable.


Thewretched said:


> Service dogs are required ONE task by FEDERAL law, MOST known at least three, many times, more.
> 
> They can ask you if it is a service dog, and what it's task is. NOT what the cause of the task is
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free Appc


----------



## Thewretched

glowingtoadfly said:


> So, for a person with panic attacks, PTSD, and/or psychoses, a service dog could be absolutely invaluable.



Correct, most will carry a business card explaining they have a disability and that they have trouble talking to others, the dog will lead them out of stressful situations. Even serve as a punching bag, letting them hit them instead of losing control in a public place, they'll bark or jump on the shoulders of some PTSD patients that are "zoning out" 


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## selzer

simba405 said:


> Does every blind person need a dog? If not then yes it's convenience. Plain and simple.
> 
> A service dog makes life easier but not required by any means. Are they useful? Of course. Especially for people with physical disabilities.
> 
> But you people are lying to yourselves if you don't think people say things to doctors just to get a dog. Glowingtoadfly just said she was going to the doctor to get a note for a service dog. Happens all the time. Those people are just as immoral.


Part of one's self-worth sometimes depends on their independence. A dog can allow a person that might otherwise need a human to accompany them everywhere to go on their own. This can be huge for them, and I am talking about blind people, but other disabilities as well. It is not a convenience just because some others manage a condition without a dog. It is the simple fact that different people cope in different ways. 

For someone with two eyes and two legs to be suggesting that people who depend on service dogs do not need them but are just using them for convenience is rather cold. Nobody _needs _a wheel chair either. They could drag themselves along the ground. What a bunch of lazy disabled people! To think that we should all just be accepting of them having their dogs in restaurants and grocery stores!!! 

I guess I must be still alive, because there is still stuff written that surprises me.


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## Mishka&Milo

selzer said:


> Part of one's self-worth sometimes depends on their independence. A dog can allow a person that might otherwise need a human to accompany them everywhere to go on their own. This can be huge for them, and I am talking about blind people, but other disabilities as well. It is not a convenience just because some others manage a condition without a dog. It is the simple fact that different people cope in different ways.
> 
> For someone with two eyes and two legs to be suggesting that people who depend on service dogs do not need them but are just using them for convenience is rather cold. Nobody _needs _a wheel chair either. They could drag themselves along the ground. What a bunch of lazy disabled people! To think that we should all just be accepting of them having their dogs in restaurants and grocery stores!!!
> 
> I guess I must be still alive, because there is still stuff written that surprises me.



You give me hope for humanity 


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## simba405

Selzer if you noticed all I listed were emotional disabilities. Those you can easily get diagnosed by a doctor. 

Physical disabilities there is no black and white. Those people are clearly disabled. Stuff like depression? Not so much. 

Also go ahead and call the mods. Not sure for what though? I didn't personally attack anyone? I don't see any cuss words? I'm talking about dogs. I just posted an unpopular opinion.


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## Mishka&Milo

simba405 said:


> Selzer if you noticed all I listed were emotional disabilities. Those you can easily get diagnosed by a doctor.
> 
> Physical disabilities there is no black and white. Those people are clearly disabled. Stuff like depression? Not so much.
> 
> Also go ahead and call the mods. Not sure for what though? I didn't personally attack anyone? I don't see any cuss words? I'm talking about dogs. I just posted an unpopular opinion.



Looks like someone likes to argue and poke sore wounds. 


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## glowingtoadfly

People who never have experienced depression are sometimes judgmental about the needs of those who have.


----------



## selzer

simba405 said:


> Selzer if you noticed all I listed were emotional disabilities. Those you can easily get diagnosed by a doctor.
> 
> Physical disabilities there is no black and white. Those people are clearly disabled. Stuff like depression? Not so much.
> 
> Also go ahead and call the mods. Not sure for what though? I didn't personally attack anyone? I don't see any cuss words? I'm talking about dogs. I just posted an unpopular opinion.


Mental problems are every bit as debilitating as physical ones. Maybe moreso, because one can see the wheel chair and give them space. 

I suppose there are individuals that might like to get themselves labeled with some type of disability to be able to take their dog with them places -- but really, that's crazy if they do not have a disability. I mean, really. Who would want a big old file on them with a diagnoses just so they could get their dog to go out to eat with them? 

Ok, you can go to the doctor and say you feel all heavy, and don't want to get up in the morning, and probably get some antidepressants. But, you have to undergo some pretty extensive psychological testing to get a designation for disability due to PTSD or Depression. 

It actually can be rather involved. First, you go see a therapist for a couple of years, and they mark down some adjustment disorder or something to keep the insurance companies happy. And after months, and months of no good days and only bad days, you can probably get some disorder or another to keep the insurance companies paying.

Finally they shift you over to a psychiatrist who gives you a test and asks you a bunch of questions and then diagnoses you with PTSD, SAD, Depression and the like and they put you on meds and if you live in the north, they will have you buy a little light. So long as you are getting to work, there is no talk about disability. 

I highly doubt that you walk into the nice doctor on your very first visit, and tell them that you want a dog, and they write you a prescription for one. They actually want to see some markers for how debilitating your condition is. Have you gotten in trouble with finances, do you have drug or alcohol addictions, have you been an inpatient, have you had trouble with the law, have you been unable to maintain gainful employment, suicide attempts. 

Mental illness is something that people who have no experience with can laugh about and joke about, and suggest that they just need to suck it up and snap out of it. But it really is no joke for a lot of people. 

If you have experienced mental illness, have a family member who has or is experiencing it, or have lost a family member to it, you probably wouldn't be so quick to judge them.

If someone's psychiatrist writes a prescription for a service dog, who am I to argue with them?


----------



## Pax8

selzer said:


> Mental problems are every bit as debilitating as physical ones. Maybe moreso, because one can see the wheel chair and give them space.
> 
> I suppose there are individuals that might like to get themselves labeled with some type of disability to be able to take their dog with them places -- but really, that's crazy if they do not have a disability. I mean, really. Who would want a big old file on them with a diagnoses just so they could get their dog to go out to eat with them?
> 
> Ok, you can go to the doctor and say you feel all heavy, and don't want to get up in the morning, and probably get some antidepressants. But, you have to undergo some pretty extensive psychological testing to get a designation for disability due to PTSD or Depression.
> 
> It actually can be rather involved. First, you go see a therapist for a couple of years, and they mark down some adjustment disorder or something to keep the insurance companies happy. And after months, and months of no good days and only bad days, you can probably get some disorder or another to keep the insurance companies paying.
> 
> Finally they shift you over to a psychiatrist who gives you a test and asks you a bunch of questions and then diagnoses you with PTSD, SAD, Depression and the like and they put you on meds and if you live in the north, they will have you buy a little light. So long as you are getting to work, there is no talk about disability.
> 
> I highly doubt that you walk into the nice doctor on your very first visit, and tell them that you want a dog, and they write you a prescription for one. They actually want to see some markers for how debilitating your condition is. Have you gotten in trouble with finances, do you have drug or alcohol addictions, have you been an inpatient, have you had trouble with the law, have you been unable to maintain gainful employment, suicide attempts.
> 
> Mental illness is something that people who have no experience with can laugh about and joke about, and suggest that they just need to suck it up and snap out of it. But it really is no joke for a lot of people.
> 
> If you have experienced mental illness, have a family member who has or is experiencing it, or have lost a family member to it, you probably wouldn't be so quick to judge them.
> 
> If someone's psychiatrist writes a prescription for a service dog, who am I to argue with them?


THANK YOU! I feel like if more people had an understanding of how complex and stressful the mental health sector is, it would not be such a joke. Even my family does not fully understand. They seem to be under the impression that you go to a therapist, talk a bit about your problems, then a psychiatrist might give you a drug or two to fix it. 

I got extremely lucky (sort of) that my process of going through doctor, therapist, psychologist/psychiatrist, specialist was streamlined since my first two episodes landed me in the hospital for multiple day stays. And without the intense supervision I was under after that, I would have been back in the hospital again. So it was clear pretty quickly that it was a serious problem and not just a passing condition. Even so, with aggressive, multiple visit per week treatment, it took a year to get a decently accurate diagnosis. I couldn't even imagine how much longer it would take to get a service dog. The doctor would of course want to make sure it was serious enough for them to write a prescription like that with confirmation/communication between them and the psychologist/psychiatrist (which is a full time job in itself). And it would not be immediate. I am absolutely certain that even with my history, I could not just walk up to my doctor and have them write a service dog prescription. It would be another entire round of therapy/treatment/speculation/observation between all the professionals as well of more psychological profiles and studies. 

I don't see how anyone wants this. I don't see how anyone can look at a system like this and say "yes, I want to deal with this so I can have a cool service dog." I understand that some people have the more innocent thought that they just want to take their dog with them. But I have also run across people that actually think it is cool (mental disability and all) because it's special or something. It baffles me.


----------



## Rocket

glowingtoadfly said:


> Well, I am actually going to talk to my doctor about getting a prescription for a SD on Friday. I think it might have put things in perspective for her. She isn't a bad person, she is just kind of rebellious. There is karma directly in action! Although I don't know if either of my pups could be trained for it.





misslesleedavis1 said:


> Yes there is a couple on my fb who just needed a docs note for there daughters service dog. Then they ordered the harness and that was it.


Therapy dogs need a docs note. Not service dogs. Therapy dogs help with depression and bi-polar and psych stuff like that, they are there for moral support, they do have some privileges but they are limited. SD's require a *DISABILITY* and the dog actually has to perform a service for the handler. Per the ADA service dogs aren't required to have a prescription or doc's note because that would be a violation of the disabled person's rights per the ADA.

just FYI


----------



## Rocket

Thewretched said:


> When she's having an off day, no trips anywhere, even work.


Today, after my posts this morning about how great Sammy is he had a bad day. Just distracted and looking at anyone who wanted to give him attention, more interested in the world than me. I felt like a real ******* when I went in the grocery store... Some older veteran saw me and shot me this condescending stare as Sammy started sniffing the cashier. I was so embarrassed.


----------



## Rocket

And for the people who are curious. I don't take my service dog to work. Due to the nature of my job and the reason that I have him it's not an acceptable mix, and my coworkers are adequately equipped to address any issue that may arise.


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## Pax8

Rocket said:


> Therapy dogs need a docs note. Not service dogs. Therapy dogs help with depression and bi-polar and psych stuff like that, they are there for moral support, they do have some privileges but they are limited. SD's require a *DISABILITY* and the dog actually has to perform a service for the handler. Per the ADA service dogs aren't required to have a prescription or doc's note because that would be a violation of the disabled person's rights per the ADA.
> 
> just FYI


Service dogs don't need a doctor's note, but I have been told it can be helpful if your dog is contested or in cases such as taking a service dog on an airline flight. Again, just what I have been told, not really sure how true that is. 

A friend's relative acquired a doctor's note stating that it was recommended by her health care professional that she have a service dog because people were less likely to badger her about it if they felt she had medical documentation. It was completely illegal to badger her about it anyways, but it seemed like it did relieve some of her stress and the pressure on her to provide some sort of proof that her dog was legitimate.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Rocket said:


> And for the people who are curious. I don't take my service dog to work. Due to the nature of my job and the reason that I have him it's not an acceptable mix, and my coworkers are adequately equipped to address any issue that may arise.


Right. I agree. My dog would not be on the clock with me.


----------



## gsdsar

simba405 said:


> Does every blind person need a dog? If not then yes it's convenience. Plain and simple.
> 
> A service dog makes life easier but not required by any means. Are they useful? Of course. Especially for people with physical disabilities.



Actually Simba you did bring physical disability into this. Why back down now? 

Faking a service dog is wrong. Black and white. 

Wishing I could take my dog places is not the same thing, or I'd be wishing I lived in France as well. And I don't. 






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## Thewretched

Rocket said:


> Today, after my posts this morning about how great Sammy is he had a bad day. Just distracted and looking at anyone who wanted to give him attention, more interested in the world than me. I felt like a real ******* when I went in the grocery store... Some older veteran saw me and shot me this condescending stare as Sammy started sniffing the cashier. I was so embarrassed.



We were home due to an off day today as well, poor girl had to be shut up inside lately due to bad weather, 


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## lalachka

glowingtoadfly said:


> I can't call the cops on my mother for publicly claiming her dog as something he isn't, but I do challenge her. I think she sees it as somehow rebellious and funny.



I just saw this. You do know I was being sarcastic, right? Didn't want you to think I really suggested that


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## simba405

What did I back down from? I don't say stuff and back down. You must be comprehended wrong....


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## Rocket

simba405 said:


> Service dogs for most things aren't even a necessity. It's a convenience. How many vets have ptsd? I don't see a bunch of vets with dogs.
> 
> Want a service dog and you're poor? Haha good luck!
> 
> As much as people with no disabilities take advantage of the lackluster laws; people with minor disabilities do the exact same to take their dog places.
> 
> Sorry to sound harsh but a dog for things like panic attack, ptsd or depression is kind of a joke. The dog doesn't do anything except hang around. Other people have the exact same sicknesses and they don't require a dog. It's a convenience. Just my opinion. Now let the bashing begin.


I'll out myself here for the sake of argument.

I have PTSD from some stuff that's none of your business. I am a disabled vet. I work in emergency response (my specific involvement is none of your concern). I recently was on an emergency response call that involved the shooting of a couple of police officers. Shots were still being fired as I was walking into the scene. I took cover and then once the shooter was down provided care for the downed officers. fast forward to later that night I finally get back to the station and everyone else goes to bed and I'm left standing there alone in a room wishing I just had a gun shot wound because that pain is easy to see easy to treat easy to understand... instead I am stuck in my own skull in a dizzying whirlwind of emotional pain and no idea how to alleviate the pain. At 0230 I find myself on the phone with the veterans crisis hotline (available 24hrs for people like me) because I don't know what to do, and I'm wandering around this room like a zombie on the verge of tears, just wishing Sammy was there to bring me back to earth, in the way that only he knows how.

So do us all a favor and take your pathetically uninformed opinion about "invisible disabilities" and go patronize someone else.


----------



## lalachka

lalachka said:


> I just saw this. You do know I was being sarcastic, right? Didn't want you to think I really suggested that



This is so weird. I changed my avatar a few days ago to the pic below and my posts show up with the new one but when quoted it shows the old one. 

What do you guys see? This one or the blueish pic?


----------



## Rocket

simba405 said:


> Selzer if you noticed all I listed were emotional disabilities. Those you can easily get diagnosed by a doctor.
> 
> Physical disabilities there is no black and white. Those people are clearly disabled. Stuff like depression? Not so much.
> 
> Also go ahead and call the mods. Not sure for what though? I didn't personally attack anyone? I don't see any cuss words? I'm talking about dogs. I just posted an unpopular opinion.


Do I "need" my SD? No. I can survive without him. 

Is my quality of life substantially diminished without him? Yes. 

Do I deserve to have the same level of comfort in my daily life as someone who has not experienced a living ****? I believe so.

Do I need him 24/7, 365 like a blind person needs their cane or SD? No. I only need him when I'm experiencing an episode. 

Do I take him nearly everwhere because I don't know when I may experience one? Yes. 

Can I survive an episode without him? Yes, I've done so for years.

Is my life better now because the episodes are less traumatic with him? Yes.


So, do I in your almighty opinion "deserve" to have him around?


----------



## simba405

Rocket said:


> I'll out myself here for the sake of argument.
> 
> I have PTSD from some stuff that's none of your business. I am a disabled vet. I work in emergency response (my specific involvement is none of your concern). I recently was on an emergency response call that involved the shooting of a couple of police officers. Shots were still being fired as I was walking into the scene. I took cover and then once the shooter was down provided care for the downed officers. fast forward to later that night I finally get back to the station and everyone else goes to bed and I'm left standing there alone in a room wishing I just had a gun shot wound because that pain is easy to see easy to treat easy to understand... instead I am stuck in my own skull in a dizzying whirlwind of emotional pain and no idea how to alleviate the pain. At 0230 I find myself on the phone with the veterans crisis hotline (available 24hrs for people like me) because I don't know what to do, and I'm wandering around this room like a zombie on the verge of tears, just wishing Sammy was there to bring me back to earth, in the way that only he knows how.
> 
> So do us all a favor and take your pathetically uninformed opinion about "invisible disabilities" and go patronize someone else.


Right so you survived without your dog. Thanks for proving my point. He's a convenience. Something that isn't even with you 24/7 can't be a necessity. 

Btw if your ptsd is so severe you shouldn't even be doing that job.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Yes. You need a service dog, without question. I'm not going to out myself because I am a coward, among other things.


Rocket said:


> Do I "need" my SD? No. I can survive without him.
> 
> Is my quality of life substantially diminished without him? Yes.
> 
> Do I deserve to have the same level of comfort in my daily life as someone who has not experienced a living ****? I believe so.
> 
> Do I need him 24/7, 365 like a blind person needs their cane or SD? No. I only need him when I'm experiencing an episode.
> 
> Do I take him nearly everwhere because I don't know when I may experience one? Yes.
> 
> Can I survive an episode without him? Yes, I've done so for years.
> 
> Is my life better now because the episodes are less traumatic with him? Yes.
> 
> 
> So, do I in your almighty opinion "deserve" to have him around?


----------



## Rocket

simba405 said:


> Right so you survived without your dog. Thanks for proving my point. He's a convenience. Something that isn't even with you 24/7 can't be a necessity.
> 
> Btw if your ptsd is so severe you shouldn't even be doing that job.


Just like what was stated earlier physically disabled people can survive without their wheelchairs. They could use crutches or drag themselves around, that's what you believe, right?

Blind people don't need "seeing eye dogs", they should just chance traffic or uneven walkways. That's what you believe?

I have had this job since before I got diagnosed, it only surfaced after a non work related event triggered some memories that I had (temporarily) successfully buried, and I don't experience my specific triggers in my field very often.

It doesn't hinder me from getting my job done.

I also never said that my SD was an absolute necessity. But for many people with disabilities *for them to experience a "normal" quality of life* the SD is a "necessity".

I don't wish evil on people, even people like you, but it would certainly benefit you to walk a mile in one of our shoes, and then you'll see what's a convenience vs. a necessity. Keeping in mind that the driving force behind the ADA (which regulates service dogs) is to allow people with disabilities to experience the same quality of life that "normal" people get to experience without any outside assistance. The ADA also allows us to be employed and the employer can't ask about our disabilities as long as it doesn't prevent us from accomplishing the task that we're paid to accomplish.

I'm beginning to wonder, are you against hearing aids as well? I mean deaf people don't "need" them..... but Hellen Keller survived and she had it worse than those people who are "just deaf". Do they not deserve to be able to hear their own child's voice? I mean it's certainly not necessary for their survival.


----------



## Rocket

Simba, I think the biggest thing you're missing here is just like what I posted above. The ADA is in place to support people with disabilities so that, despite their specific ailment, they can be allowed provisions to live as close to normal as possible and not be hindered (anymore than what is absolutely unavoidable) by their disability.


----------



## simba405

I'm not here to debate whether you yourself should or shouldn't have a service dog. That's a touchy subject. Not to mention I don't care if you have 10 service dogs. 

My original point was that as much as normal people break the rules I'm sure there are just as many people with minor disabilities that use that to take their dog everywhere. IMO that is just as immoral. 

If I saw a dog at a store I don't care if it's real sd or not. I love seeing dogs out in general. 

Hearing aids and wheelchairs help people with those disabilities function like a normal member of society. Not sure how a dog helps people with depression or ptsd function normally? Last I checked only therapy and medication can do that.


----------



## llombardo

simba405 said:


> Hearing aids and wheelchairs help people with those disabilities function like a normal member of society. Not sure how a dog helps people with depression or ptsd function normally? Last I checked only therapy and medication can do that.


----------



## counter

llombardo said:


> Service dog denied entry at Walgreen's - YouTube


So that's probably part of the problem. The guy looked healthy. He spoke normally. Not missing any limbs. Dog wasn't wearing a vest (I understand they don't have to, but it can sometimes help separate them from a pet [and yes, I understand any old Joe can go buy a SD vest online if they really wanted to take it that far]). Anyone can probably replicate that ID card, so the manager wasn't buying it and harassed him until he left. Vet or not, this should've never happened. But when people bring their pets into stores pretending to be SDs, it only takes a few times getting caught by a store manager before everyone with real SDs gets harassed and kicked out. Should the guy have kept his cool. Sure. Would I have been able to? Nope. It would probably be wise to carry a laminated copy of the state or federal ADA law to show a store worker, letting them know that these are the only things you can ask me. If you have a problem, then call the cops. I wouldn't leave, and would no longer talk to whoever it was that was harassing me. Of course, if you take this out futher, maybe the manager would not allow you to make your purchase, so all of this becomes a big waste of time. I guess you could always sue, right? Lots of sue happy people. Again, it should never get this far.


----------



## gsdsar

simba405 said:


> Selzer if you noticed all I listed were emotional disabilities. Those you can easily get diagnosed by a doctor.
> 
> Physical disabilities there is no black and white. Those people are clearly disabled. Stuff like depression? Not so much.




Here. This is what I referenced. When you say all you listed were mental disabilities. But you didn't. You included blindness. 

On my phone. Can't figure out how to multiquote. 


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----------



## odins_raven

Guessed this would turn into a battle ground on the 2nd page, and here we are 17 pages later... lmao...


----------



## counter

odins_raven said:


> Guessed this would turn into a battle ground on the 2nd page, and here we are 17 pages later... lmao...


It's OK. You'd never learn about all this (facts, feelings, etc.) without asking questions. Sometimes this is the best way to learn, even if you don't like or agree with the answer. And 50% of the time the answer you'll get isn't the answer you were hoping for. Just stick with this forum. It's filled with passionate people who love their GSDs like you do. You'll learn who to avoid over time. And sometimes it's best to hit that "unsubscribe" button if you want to remain happy and stress free, by not being constantly reminded of some silly debate that irks you. Good luck! I know this board can sometimes feel like your thread is dripping blood in shark infested waters. 99% of the people are on here to help others, and to help themselves by learning through others, even if they butt heads from time to time. It'll be worth it in the end. Trust me!


----------



## jafo220

simba405 said:


> Service dogs for most things aren't even a necessity. It's a convenience. How many vets have ptsd? I don't see a bunch of vets with dogs.
> 
> Want a service dog and you're poor? Haha good luck!
> 
> As much as people with no disabilities take advantage of the lackluster laws; people with minor disabilities do the exact same to take their dog places.
> 
> Sorry to sound harsh but a dog for things like panic attack, ptsd or depression is kind of a joke. The dog doesn't do anything except hang around. Other people have the exact same sicknesses and they don't require a dog. It's a convenience. Just my opinion. Now let the bashing begin.


This is not for YOU to choose really. For some it is a necessity. For some it may not be. It's their choice not for you to judge whether it is necessary or not. 

It doesn't offer an excuse to fake a disability just to have your dog with you 24/7 either.

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----------



## JakodaCD OA

well odin you did start it.

Simba, I agree with Jafo above.

Maybe you see them as not being a necessity but there are many out there who these dogs help immensely whatever the disability may be.

To 'fake' one just because you want to take your dog everywhere is WRONG, people who do this, probably do alot of other 'lying' within their lives as well.


----------



## misslesleedavis1

Rocket said:


> Therapy dogs need a docs note. Not service dogs. Therapy dogs help with depression and bi-polar and psych stuff like that, they are there for moral support, they do have some privileges but they are limited. SD's require a *DISABILITY* and the dog actually has to perform a service for the handler. Per the ADA service dogs aren't required to have a prescription or doc's note because that would be a violation of the disabled person's rights per the ADA.
> 
> just FYI


When you say limited privileges what do you mean?
what are the requirements of a therapy dog, and why would they get a doctors note then?

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----------



## misslesleedavis1

I cannot connect to the forum to edit my post- I read your post wrong rocket, scratch the whole part at the bottom, "why would they get a doctors note then" 

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----------



## Rocket

misslesleedavis1 said:


> When you say limited privileges what do you mean?
> what are the requirements of a therapy dog, and why would they get a doctors note then?


I don't have a therapy dog, so I'm not super familiar with the restrictions, sorry.
Doctors note is required because a therapy dog is not there to assist with a disability as set forth in the ADA.

Remember service dogs are a protected right per the ADA. If it doesn't fit into those parameters, then is not a service dog.


----------



## Rocket

misslesleedavis1 said:


> I cannot connect to the forum to edit my post- I read your post wrong rocket, scratch the whole part at the bottom, "why would they get a doctors note then"
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Too late. Haha


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## martemchik

I don’t want to put words in simba’s mouth…but he keeps talking about taking “your dog” everywhere with you. That’s probably a lot of people’s biggest issue when it comes to emotional/mental disabilities…somehow, the pet they’ve had being “just a pet” at home becomes their service dog. Like, a light bulb goes off, they realize they are legally entitled to a service dog, and magically…their current dog fits that bill. And the commentary about it being a convenience and not a necessity just backs that up…the people choose when and where they take their dog with them. If it’s somewhere that the dog might be a hindrance and tough to deal with, it stays home, but if it’s just a walk through the local grocery store, or a few hours of shopping at the local shopping mall…well why not bring the dog? Better that then to leave it at home…

BTW…I’m not calling anyone out for doing this. I don’t really care how people choose to live with their service dog, I’m just pointing out that simba’s reasoning has some logic. It’s just one of those things that’s hard to comprehend how one day you don’t have a SD, the next day you do…and it just happens to be the dog that’s been living with you for years with no actual “service dog” training.

I guess I’ve read too many threads, and discussed this with a friend who raises puppies for an SD organization, where the success rate is less than 50%, and it’s hard to believe that the dog that you haven’t searched out for this job…can magically do it. The fact is, the handler is biased, the handler wants THEIR dog to work out…and they generally (especially if it’s their first) don’t understand the standard their dog needs to be trained to. So you get a less than optimal dog out there, I don’t want to say it but “masquerading” as an SD, and giving other SD teams a bad name by not having the proper training or temperament that society expects from that type of dog. Yet…legally, it’s hard to question, hard to do anything about, so the person continues on doing what they’re doing.


----------



## Sunflowers

odins_raven said:


> Guessed this would turn into a battle ground on the 2nd page, and here we are 17 pages later... lmao...


Wow. You are laughing your -- off? 

I never even clicked on this until now.
I thought this was a thread about you wanting to report someone!


----------



## lalachka

Martemchik, Yep, that's what I meant when I wrote my first post. I wasn't saying that it's so easy and you should do it, rather I was describing how it is (people are afraid to question and she can just take him anywhere and her dog is not trained at all) and being sarcastic about it. 

It's hard to pick up on tones on the forum but I def wasn't saying that it's a good thing to do.


----------



## ILGHAUS

It is going to take me a while to wade through this thread. Just doing some glancing is I do see some violations of group rules and will be notifying all of those here in this thread that I see who are doing the pseudo swearing. I will be posting this message where I spot such .... Sentence removed by Mod for containing pseudo swearing. 

Let me once again try to also state some basics here as someone will be posting away before I can get from beginning to end.

*In the U.S.*, in order to have a Service Dog there is no regulatory law that you must have a prescription from a doctor to use an Assistance / Service Dog under Title II or Title III of the ADA.

A SD does not need to be taught 3 tasks. This is a much quoted number from the fact that there are several SD organizations that require their members to have a minimum of 3 on their dogs. The Dept. of Justice says "tasks or work" or in their revised definition: _ “Service animal means any dog that is individually trained to do work or perform tasks for the benefit of an individual with a disability, including a physical, sensory, psychiatric, intellectual, or other mental disability. ..." _

An Assistance / Service Dog does not have rights -- it is the person with disabilities that has rights. The ADA is a Civil Rights Law. Animals of any type do not qualify for civil rights. Is this nitpicking? No, as it is important in some points of law.

Service Dogs are NOT ALLOWED EVERYWHERE where their handler goes. There are exceptions. 

Now, I need to get back and begin to do some Mod cleanup on this thread.


----------



## Rocket

martemchik said:


> I don’t want to put words in simba’s mouth…but he keeps talking about taking “your dog” everywhere with you. That’s probably a lot of people’s biggest issue when it comes to emotional/mental disabilities…somehow, the pet they’ve had being “just a pet” at home becomes their service dog. Like, a light bulb goes off, they realize they are legally entitled to a service dog, and magically…their current dog fits that bill. And the commentary about it being a convenience and not a necessity just backs that up…the people choose when and where they take their dog with them. If it’s somewhere that the dog might be a hindrance and tough to deal with, it stays home, but if it’s just a walk through the local grocery store, or a few hours of shopping at the local shopping mall…well why not bring the dog? Better that then to leave it at home…
> 
> BTW…I’m not calling anyone out for doing this. I don’t really care how people choose to live with their service dog, I’m just pointing out that simba’s reasoning has some logic. It’s just one of those things that’s hard to comprehend how one day you don’t have a SD, the next day you do…and it just happens to be the dog that’s been living with you for years with no actual “service dog” training.
> 
> I guess I’ve read too many threads, and discussed this with a friend who raises puppies for an SD organization, where the success rate is less than 50%, and it’s hard to believe that the dog that you haven’t searched out for this job…can magically do it. The fact is, the handler is biased, the handler wants THEIR dog to work out…and they generally (especially if it’s their first) don’t understand the standard their dog needs to be trained to. So you get a less than optimal dog out there, I don’t want to say it but “masquerading” as an SD, and giving other SD teams a bad name by not having the proper training or temperament that society expects from that type of dog. Yet…legally, it’s hard to question, hard to do anything about, so the person continues on doing what they’re doing.


FWIW, other dog stays at home. He is not fit to be a SD. So I got Sammy. We work on training stuff everyday. I've had the other dog for years, Sammy is new to me, because I recently got diagnosed.


----------



## Rocket

ILGHAUS said:


> It is going to take me a while to wade through this thread. Just doing some glancing is I do see some violations of group rules and will be notifying all of those here in this thread that I see who are doing the pseudo swearing. I will be posting this message where I spot such .... Sentence removed by Mod for containing pseudo swearing.
> 
> Let me once again try to also state some basics here as someone will be posting away before I can get from beginning to end.
> 
> In order to have a Service Dog there is no regulatory law that you must have a prescription from a doctor to use an Assistance / Service Dog under Title II or Title III of the ADA.
> 
> A SD does not need to be taught 3 tasks. This is a much quoted number from the fact that there are several SD organizations that require their members to have a minimum of 3 on their dogs. The Dept. of Justice says "tasks or work" or in their revised definition: _ “Service animal means any dog that is individually trained to do work or perform tasks for the benefit of an individual with a disability, including a physical, sensory, psychiatric, intellectual, or other mental disability. ..." _
> 
> An Assistance / Service Dog does not have rights -- it is the person with disabilities that has rights. The ADA is a Civil Rights Law. Animals of any type do not qualify for civil rights. Is this nitpicking? No, as it is important in some points of law.
> 
> Service Dogs are NOT ALLOWED EVERYWHERE where their handler goes. There are exceptions.
> 
> Now, I need to get back and begin to do some Mod cleanup on this thread.


If you give me access to my posts I'll edit the language. Sorry about that.


----------



## martemchik

Rocket said:


> FWIW, other dog stays at home. He is not fit to be a SD. So I got Sammy. We work on training stuff everyday. I've had the other dog for years, Sammy is new to me, because I recently got diagnosed.


Oh you don't have to explain yourself to me or anyone. I was just saying what I've seen/heard happen a lot more in recent years after congress made PTSD a part of ADA. And I do think they should've done that...I'm not saying they were wrong. But we've had numerous news articles posted on this thread about how PTSD service dogs have attacked people in/out of the home because they were the former pet of the handler...and not a trained SD. That's the stuff we need to protect against, because it gives all SDs a bad name.

I know there are a few people on this forum that have their "pets" and they have their SD. All dogs are treated equally at home, just one has more responsibility when out and about. 

I just think too many people automatically think their current dog can do the job...mostly because the "task" in the case of a psychological disability, isn't a visable/trainable task that we would conventionally think of. It's things like...dog puts his paw on me, dog puts his chin on me, dog lets me pet him when I get X. No big deal...I won't say those aren't helpful...I'm just saying that there is a portion of a population that looks as that as things their pets dog anyways and so that means their pet is qualified to be an SD...that's the part I think is wrong.


----------



## Rocket

martemchik said:


> Oh you don't have to explain yourself to me or anyone. I was just saying what I've seen/heard happen a lot more in recent years after congress made PTSD a part of ADA. And I do think they should've done that...I'm not saying they were wrong. But we've had numerous news articles posted on this thread about how PTSD service dogs have attacked people in/out of the home because they were the former pet of the handler...and not a trained SD. That's the stuff we need to protect against, because it gives all SDs a bad name.
> 
> I know there are a few people on this forum that have their "pets" and they have their SD. All dogs are treated equally at home, just one has more responsibility when out and about.
> 
> I just think too many people automatically think their current dog can do the job...mostly because the "task" in the case of a psychological disability, isn't a visable/trainable task that we would conventionally think of. It's things like...dog puts his paw on me, dog puts his chin on me, dog lets me pet him when I get X. No big deal...I won't say those aren't helpful...I'm just saying that there is a portion of a population that looks as that as things their pets dog anyways and so that means their pet is qualified to be an SD...that's the part I think is wrong.


Ahh. Very good point. I had not thought about that. I fully agree, any "pet" + a disability =/= Service dog. I hate that I have to leave my other dog at home. It breaks my heart cause I know he's sad about being left, but he's not my SD so he doesn't come with.


----------



## ILGHAUS

martemchik said:


> " It's things like...dog puts his paw on me, dog puts his chin on me, dog lets me pet him when I get X. No big deal...I won't say those aren't helpful...I'm just saying that there is a portion of a population that looks as that as things their pets dog anyways and so that means their pet is qualified to be an SD...that's the part I think is wrong.


The Dept. of Justice has addressed this in their Revised definition of “service animal”.
_" ... the provision of emotional support, well-being, comfort, or companionship do not constitute work or tasks for the purposes of this definition.”_


----------



## martemchik

ILGHAUS said:


> The Dept. of Justice has addressed this in their Revised definition of “service animal”.
> _" ... the provision of emotional support, well-being, comfort, or companionship do not constitute work or tasks for the purposes of this definition.”_


Thanks for that!

Now...how would someone, who's dog does only provide those types of tasks legally constitute their dog as a service dog? Or are they messing with the law (taking advantage that no one will probably ask) and skirting their "emotional support animal" by as a service dog?

Does this mean the dog does have to perform some sort of physical aid to the person, that can be measured/observed, to be a true SD?


----------



## Rocket

martemchik said:


> Now...how would someone, who's dog does only provide those types of tasks legally constitute their dog as a service dog? Or are they messing with the law (taking advantage that no one will probably ask) and skirting their "emotional support animal" by as a service dog?


The same way that everyone else breaks the law. By taking a chance, and hoping for the best.

Like I said way back at the start of the thread, it's nearly impossible to enforce because we're protected by the ADA meaning we don't have to tell you what's wrong (I exposed my PTSD for the sake of argument, but I don't have to, that's protected information per the ADA)


----------



## ILGHAUS

Main points on what makes a SD in the U.S.

Part I. Person must have a legal disability.

Part II. Dog must have been individually trained tasks or work to mitigate the owner/handler's disability.


----------



## scarfish

i'm not reading 6 pages but would like to throw out there that only a complete scumbag would lie about needing a service dog. really must've had no mother or a failure mother who couldn't teach manners or morals.


----------



## Rocket

scarfish said:


> i'm not reading 6 pages but....................must've had no mother


Yeah, on page 3 he reveals that he's a test tube baby, born from a petri dish.










 Just messing with you.


----------



## ILGHAUS

This whole thread is full of violations ...* Consider this post here a reminder to all who have violated before this post and may violate after this post. Continue and the next warnings will be official.*

INFORMATION SPECIFIC TO THIS BOARD: To be a participating member of this board you must follow these simple rules of conduct:

*1. Be courteous to other members at all times;*

*2. Be respectful of the feelings of others;*
...

*5. Do not use defamatory statements or statements that attack the character of another;*
...

*9. Do not use statements that incite conflict among members;*

...

*16. Since this is an open forum and we have members of all ages the using of acronyms, replacing letters with other letters or symbols to avoid being censored will be considered as breaking the rules. We can not and will not put every possible acronym or modified word on the censored list. The use acronyms, replacing letters with other letters or symbols as a work around the censor rules we will consider it a violation of the rules and you will be treat accordingly.*
...


----------



## WateryTart

Edit: Holy cow, never mind, I missed some stuff here!


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## ILGHAUS

I did what clean up of the thread that I could here at the present time but now I must take my pain pills and get off the computer.


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## Rocket

ILGHAUS said:


> I did what clean up of the thread that I could here at the present time but now I must take my pain pills and get off the computer.


Sorry.


----------



## jafo220

Meh, said my peace. Out.

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----------



## blehmannwa

This is one of those threads where I typed a long reply.....took a break and never hit post.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

My hubby says I'm too functional for a SD. Works for me...


----------



## SuperG

ILGHAUS said:


> This whole thread is full of violations ...* Consider this post here a reminder to all who have violated before this post and may violate after this post. Continue and the next warnings will be official.*
> 
> INFORMATION SPECIFIC TO THIS BOARD: To be a participating member of this board you must follow these simple rules of conduct:
> 
> *1. Be courteous to other members at all times;*
> 
> *2. Be respectful of the feelings of others;*
> ...
> 
> *5. Do not use defamatory statements or statements that attack the character of another;*
> ...
> 
> *9. Do not use statements that incite conflict among members;*
> 
> ...
> 
> *16. Since this is an open forum and we have members of all ages the using of acronyms, replacing letters with other letters or symbols to avoid being censored will be considered as breaking the rules. We can not and will not put every possible acronym or modified word on the censored list. The use acronyms, replacing letters with other letters or symbols as a work around the censor rules we will consider it a violation of the rules and you will be treat accordingly.*
> ...


I never knew there were so many rules when we communicate amongst humans...but I have been duly notified.

SuperG


----------



## misslesleedavis1

glowingtoadfly said:


> My hubby says I'm too functional for a SD. Works for me...


Funny mine told me tonight that i am very disfunctional and could use a dog to go places with.

I dont know what he ment by that....he is in the freezer in the basement now so i guess i will never know.


----------



## SuperG

Okay...the penalty for lying about a service dog should be...a Bobby Hull/110 mpg slapshot to the nads.


superG


----------



## lalachka

misslesleedavis1 said:


> Funny mine told me tonight that i am very disfunctional and could use a dog to go places with.
> 
> 
> 
> I dont know what he ment by that....he is in the freezer in the basement now so i guess i will never know.



I love some of your posts))))))))))))


----------



## ILGHAUS

Board rules are accessible from many areas of the site. For those who wish to read them in full here is the link.

German Shepherd Dog Forums - Announcements in Forum : Administrator Messages


----------



## Juliem24

scarfish said:


> i'm not reading 6 pages but would like to throw out there that only a complete scumbag would lie about needing a service dog. really must've had no mother or a failure mother who couldn't teach manners or morals.


Or maybe a fallure dad.


----------



## blehmannwa

misslesleedavis1 said:


> Funny mine told me tonight that i am very disfunctional and could use a dog to go places with.
> 
> I dont know what he ment by that....he is in the freezer in the basement now so i guess i will never know.


I have a few freezers.


----------



## Juliem24

blehmannwa said:


> I have a few freezers.


And I have some nice chainsaws!


----------



## Rocket

SuperG said:


> 110 mpg slapshot to the nads.


110 MPG??? I wish my truck were as efficient as that slapshot!


----------



## SuperG

Rocket said:


> 110 MPG??? I wish my truck were as efficient as that slapshot!



LOL....yep..Bobby Hull was efficient...

Good catch....thanks.

SuperG


----------



## Zimom

glowingtoadfly said:


> This thread is actually provoking quite an interesting conversation with my mother. I think she is starting to understand why she should not have claimed her dog as an SD.


Just found this thread.. I realize it is a month old. As my daughter has a service dog, fake service dogs are a hot button issue for me. 

For the list and for your mom: My daughter, a pre-teen, is asked about her visible disability every single day of her life. Every day. One of the things her service dog does for her is to take the attention away from her disability, which can be good and bad. Kids see the dog and not her disability. However, she will still be stopped in stores and questioned about her dog even though she has her vest on, is the most well-behaved dog, etc etc. We have been told more then once it is because they have had poorly behaved dogs in their stores/restaurants. Every fake service dog makes it harder for us. We just want to go about our business and be left alone.


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## MichaelE

Only dirtbags without a conscience would pass a dog off as a Service Dog.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

I' m still working on her, thank you! I don't think that the store she went to understood the law, because she claimed her dog as a therapy dog and they have no legal rights. ( He is not a certified therapy dog either ) I don't think she has no conscience, I just think she doesn't understand how serious it is.


----------



## Tratkins

Zimom said:


> Just found this thread.. I realize it is a month old. As my daughter has a service dog, fake service dogs are a hot button issue for me.
> 
> For the list and for your mom: My daughter, a pre-teen, is asked about her visible disability every single day of her life. Every day. One of the things her service dog does for her is to take the attention away from her disability, which can be good and bad. Kids see the dog and not her disability. However, she will still be stopped in stores and questioned about her dog even though she has her vest on, is the most well-behaved dog, etc etc. We have been told more then once it is because they have had poorly behaved dogs in their stores/restaurants. Every fake service dog makes it harder for us. We just want to go about our business and be left alone.


Yes! We were in San Diego this weekend which is a very dog friendly place. However, there are certain beaches and other places that dogs are not allowed. Unfortunately, we saw several dogs in forbidden places (one was the zoo) with service vests on and the dogs were barking and reacting to everything around them. One little poodle was barking so much and didn't even have a clue what was going on with its owner...not what comes to mind when I think of a trained service dog. I would have loved to have had my dog there too..but I pay to board him when I go places he is not allowed. 

I am sorry others make it more difficult for your daughter.


----------



## Chip18

I just saw this today and yeah....I "don't" have a service dog and I think, doing something like that places someone on the same low level as scum that park in a handicapped zone and aren't disabled!


----------



## ILGHAUS

glowingtoadfly said:


> I' m still working on her, thank you! I don't think that the store she went to understood the law, because she claimed her dog as a therapy dog and they have no legal rights. ( He is not a certified therapy dog either ) I don't think she has no conscience, I just think she doesn't understand how serious it is.


Just for your info on Therapy Dogs -- most organizations "register" their graduates while only a very few "certify". The difference is the level of legal responsibility that is taken on by the organization. 

For those who need a definition for their own understanding or to help inform someone else:

In the U.S. --
Therapy Dogs are legally classed as pets. 
The owner and dog work as a team to visit others to bring happiness or to in some cases help a medical caregiver in a treatment plan. 
The owner* may or may not* be disabled. 
The owner does not have any rights to take the dog anywhere that is not pet friendly or where the dog has been invited to visit. 

In the U.S. --
Service Dogs are classified as medical equipment per the *Dept. of Justice (DOJ) and the IRS*. 
The owner handler *is legally disabled* per the DOJ.
The dog has been individually *trained to mitigate* the handler's disability per the DOJ.
The handler for whom the dog was trained, does have Public Access Rights to take the dog *almost anywhere* where the handler is legally allowed to go per the DOJ. 

People who claim their dog as a Service Dog when all qualifications are not met:
1) Are in violation of Federal Regulatory Law -- under the Department of Justice, Civil Rights Division. 
2) In some states, people who claim their dogs as an Assistance / Service dog when all qualifications are not met *may be* in violation of their State's Statutes, Criminal Law and may be fined and/or sentenced to serving some time in jail.

In regards to Federal or State Laws: whichever gives the handler the greatest benefit or protection is the law which takes precedence.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

I just let her know! Hopefully she realizes.


----------



## kburrow11

Rocket said:


> As we were walking out I heard people saying, "holy s... that's a huge dog, I didn't even know he was in here this whole time."
> 
> And that's how a service dog should be. People shouldn't know that he was ever there. The service dog should be silent (unless it's part of his service to "speak" to you) and just an extension of you that largely goes unnoticed.


^^^THIS^^^

I've got Vida, who's a week shy of 6 months old who's in training as a service dog. 2 weeks into her training (8 weeks old at that time) I had her in my college classes with me. By that time she was already so accustomed to what the vest meant in terms of her working and not being free to play, that for 3 days, two of my professors didn't even know she was in class, and I sit in the second row. That's how quiet she was. And that's at 8 weeks old. Imagine how much the training has to progress in the 18-24 months service dogs are in training before they're considered fully trained.


----------



## wyominggrandma

I know of a mother who got a mixed dog from the pound, did really no training on it, got a vest for it off ebay and then gave it to her daughter because of her problem of being social around people saying it was a therapy dog. The daughter would take the dog into all the stores in this small town and stand in the aisles talking, while the dog peed and pooped every time it went into the stores. She refused to clean up after it and just said" call the cops, I don't care, my mom will sue you". The store owners let her get away with it, small town, everyone knows everyone and didn't want problems. This girl no more needed a therapy or service dog, but she attracted attention and that is what she wanted.
I had another lady stop me at the store, wanting the vet to give her Maltese a note saying it was her service dog for asthma so she could take it anywhere. Told me she was told by the breeder who bred these Maltese to be service dogs for asthma because they had a small hole in their skulls that when they started to get an attack, they just pressed the chest and a special powder substance came out that would help stop the attack. Now I am not kidding, she was totally serious. Had to explain that there was no hole in the dogs head, that there would not be a "powder" coming out of the dogs head to help her asthma attack and that the vet could not do that.
I had a hard time not laughing while I was trying to be professional, went back to work and we all had a laugh about it. Felt sorry for the woman actually falling for the breeders story and big price for special therapy/service dogs. 
I am sorry, but can you picture a person squeezing this poor dogs rib cage and sniffing its head to get the special powder to come out?
I also had a worker get a note from her Dr to give to the landlord to say she had to have a service dog for her well being. Trailer park was a no pet policy, but she got to get a dog. Has since married and now they have two dogs. This person no more needed a service dog, she had no issues. Total fake to keep her dog.
I think folks that want to fake needing a service dog/therapy dog so their dog can go everywhere with them is unethical, but its so easy to get service vests online anymore. How sad.


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