# Q about breeding pairs



## SewSleepy (Sep 4, 2012)

First of all, I am not exactly interested in breeding. My pup came from a shelter and is spayed.

I see posts on here about various breedings and lineages. I'm curious how one goes about responsibly breeding their dog. Specifically, if I were to buy a male puppy from a responsible breeder with good lineage and get him titled through Sch1 or 2 (or go all the way 3), would a responsible breeder be interested in using him, and does the breeder approach the owner or the other way around?

As I said, my pup will not be bred, but I already know that when the time comes we'll get another GSD and will consider a pb breeder rather than rescue, and while I'm imagining things that won't happen for another 10 years why not consider breeding a hypothetical dog with some hypothetical titles  

Just curious - thanks for indulging me.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

SewSleepy said:


> Specifically, if I were to buy a male puppy from a responsible breeder with good lineage and get him titled through Sch1 or 2 (or go all the way 3), would a responsible breeder be interested in using him, and does the breeder approach the owner or the other way around?


There are so many variables, it's hard to say.

Let's say for the sake of argument that you get your hands on a dog whose bloodlines are valuable and sought after, has a fantastic temperament, conformation, and excellent working ability, you title him to SchH3 and get a V and kkl1 in conformation.

If he is truly a breedworthy specimen, you may find some of the people in your club are interested in breeding to him. If word of your dog gets around the GSD community, bitch owners would be contacting you if they are interested in breeding. You might buy a print ad in SchH USA or other publication announcing your male is available for stud, if you really wanted to campaign him, but most of your advertising is going to be word of mouth from people who have seen your dog work.

Now, on the other hand... let's say you get a male with very common bloodlines that are available just about everywhere, you title him to SchH2, and he gets an SG kkl2 in conformation. He may be the best dog in the world for you, but he may not get much attention from breeders because there are so many of his kind out there, and since bitch owners can take their pick of studs they are going to want the very best that they can get. Your dog would probably be overlooked by all except backyard breeders in your neighborhood.

But like I said, there are so many variables that it's hard to speculate. At the point of a beginner, I would never count on raising a dog FOR stud. You get your well-bred dog, do everything you can to acheive your goals with him, have fun and learn a lot... but unless he is really exceptional you probably shouldn't count on getting stud fees. If it happens, it's icing on the cake.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

If you want to be a breeder, start with a female. If she is truly awesome you can go to almost any stud in the world.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

If you really want to have the dream of breeding or acquiring or raising breeding stock.....you have to invest yourself in the dog world in training, and attending the type of events that your breed is prevalent in. There is no short cut in this breed....if you want to be a potential player, you have to get off the Internet, and couch and get involved in breed events. You will see a whole different perspective than can be learned from books and forums. The breed needs energy, commitment, and involvement from new people to remain strong and viable. 
One last point, go to trials, conformation shows, breed clubs, so you can see first hand what you read on websites....it will be eye opening...trust me!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Maybe I can comment because I'm sort of in your place. I'm not a "breeder" per se and don't aspire to be, as in I have no interest in owning and breeding females. Right now I own an intact male (and some other breeds/foster dogs). I've trained him in many sports/venues so we have traveled many states for trials, events, shows, etc. and now that he is an adult and has many titles, conformation ratings, KKL, health certificates, etc a few people have approached me about using him for breeding. I don't advertise him as a "stud dog" but these are people that have seen him in person and liked what they saw and/or the pedigree and have made further contact with me. He hasn't been bred yet, might be this coming spring but again, my priority is training and trialing with my dog and if people like what they see, they're welcome to inquire. I think it's easier to learn and meet people that might be interested in breeding arrangements if you are active training, trialing, and exhibiting your dogs than deciding to breed *first* and then making a name for yourself. Maybe it is too altruistic of me but I tend to think that my dog(s) quality will speak for itself and if he's good enough for breeding, people will come forward without me making a concerted effort just to get him bred. I put my effort into training and reaching his potential as best I can. For me earning titles is not a means to an end (breeding under the German system) but it's the process that has value, learning about my dog and the breed in general.


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## ponyfarm (Apr 11, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> If you really want to have the dream of breeding or acquiring or raising breeding stock.....you have to invest yourself in the dog world in training, and attending the type of events that your breed is prevalent in. There is no short cut in this breed....if you want to be a potential player, you have to get off the Internet, and couch and get involved in breed events. You will see a whole different perspective than can be learned from books and forums. The breed needs energy, commitment, and involvement from new people to remain strong and viable.
> One last point, go to trials, conformation shows, breed clubs, so you can see first hand what you read on websites....it will be eye opening...trust me!


What cliffson said. I recently had the opportunity to attend a trial and show! Finally got to see in person some really nice dogs, and realized now my next puppy needs to be from V rated stock. (still love my Max!) 

Dont discount what you can learn thru research, but actually "being there" trumps all.


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## SewSleepy (Sep 4, 2012)

Thanks so much for the insight. It's interesting to learn how the whole thing works. 

It sounds like my hypothetical dog with his hypothetical titles has a small chance of becoming a stud dog, but as I suspected there is the much greater chance that going through all of the titling etc would simply lead to just having a great dog. 


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

SewSleepy said:


> Thanks so much for the insight. It's interesting to learn how the whole thing works.
> 
> It sounds like my hypothetical dog with his hypothetical titles has a small chance of becoming a stud dog, but as I suspected there is the much greater chance that *going through all of the titling etc would simply lead to just having a great dog. *
> 
> ...


Thats my way of thinking!


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Cliff makes very good points!!!! I totally agree!

One thing that does bother me is the conception that a "V" is necessary....in Showlines this is true - if a dog goes SG, no one will want to use him...two of the very best showline males I know of were SG in conformaton - but they had work ethic....they were bypassed even by their own breeders as not being sufficient for breeding...

In working lines, there is NOTHING WRONG with a SG or even some G ratings in conformation....the conformation rating is one man's opinion, and depending on where/who awards this, it is next to meaningless as a abritrator of the dog's breeding value....My 'G' female has produced at least one V female, and 2 other males who would go V if shown again - one with a Sch2, he stood in front of 2 other already koered, V rated males in a show ring....but could not get a V due to not being koered yet. That G female would have gone at least SG if shown to a less rigid show judge as well....quite a few of her offspring do have an SG already and as this is sufficient for a koer, will not be presented again for an "upgrade". Do not discount working line breeding stock because they are not V rated!!! Sure it is nice, but that rating is as much a result of who shown under as the judge - G, SG or V!!! And remember, form follows function, and the working dog IS totally capable of working with G or SG conformation!

As I have always concentrated on females, I get inquiries and offers of stud service from owners of males regularly......I have a definite game plan on what I want to use and not use. But it often opens up a new dog I did not know of and my K litter was bred using a male whose owner approached me with an offer of a breeding....

I do co-own a young male that I am hopeful will be breed worthy....pedigree, character and ability are promising....and he fits into MY big picture.....if he fits into anyone else's great - if not...well that is their loss!   

Lee


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Lee I've had a few people ask me about using Nikon and he's not V rated. He was SG rated at 13 months and if that's good enough for Koer then it's good enough for me! I guess if people who are only obsessed with show ratings are looking for a stud he's not their dog anyway since showing is last priority for me (I do it, but only when it doesn't conflict with another trial/event or money I need for other entries).


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## ponyfarm (Apr 11, 2010)

Thanks Lee..always good info!


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Cliff, Lee and Lies - great posts.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Cliff and Lies, excellent posts. Lee, excellent point.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

wolfstraum said:


> One thing that does bother me is the conception that a "V" is necessary....in Showlines this is true - if a dog goes SG, no one will want to use him...two of the very best showline males I know of were SG in conformaton - but they had work ethic....they were bypassed even by their own breeders as not being sufficient for breeding...
> 
> In working lines, there is NOTHING WRONG with a SG or even some G ratings in conformation....the conformation rating is one man's opinion, and depending on where/who awards this, it is next to meaningless as a abritrator of the dog's breeding value....


This is one of those "variables" I was talking about--I didn't want to get too deep into the differences between show and working bloodlines in my first post, because it was late and I was tired, but I totally agree with Wolfstraum. So much depends on the bloodline, and the goals of the breeder. That SG showline male that the show breeders turn their nose up at, may be the best working showline dog you've ever seen, and therefore could be of great value. And many great working line dogs go SG or G, and it doesn't necessarily mean they are better or worse than a V-rated dog--it all depends on what you need for your breeding program. You have to look at the whole dog, as well as what is behind him.

That said, if you have an SG showline dog who can only acheive a SchH2 by a whisker, he probably won't be sought after by reputable breeders--but it doesn't reduce his INTRINSIC value as the best dog you ever had.

For that matter, titles aren't the be-all and end-all of everything--some of the best dogs are "untitled" dogs working in law enforcement, SAR, service, etc. The key is that the dog is tested and well understood.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

SewSleepy said:


> Specifically, if I were to buy a male puppy from a responsible breeder with good lineage and get him titled through Sch1 or 2 (or go all the way 3),


By the time you title a dog to a SchH3, even a 1, after all the work, the years of training, the investigation to look for that breeder of great bloodlines, the people you train with, the club, the seminars, the trials... then you don't need to ask how a dog is used a stud, you will already know.


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## SewSleepy (Sep 4, 2012)

Catu said:


> By the time you title a dog to a SchH3, even a 1, after all the work, the years of training, the investigation to look for that breeder of great bloodlines, the people you train with, the club, the seminars, the trials... then you don't need to ask how a dog is used a stud, you will already know.


Aww...thanks so much for your insight and sharing your knowledge with a novice who's curious. You must be a real peach in person 


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

SewSleepy said:


> Aww...thanks so much for your insight and sharing your knowledge with a novice who's curious. You must be a real peach in person


Can't tell if this is sarcasm or not, but what Catu says is correct. By the time you've proven your dog breedworthy, you will have learned much of what you need to know.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Exactly, I don't mean to be snotty at all, but to show how in breeding the important part is not the goal (having a dog with great genetics and training to breed) but the journey (acquiring the knowledge to tell what is good genetics and training).

In some way it answers your question, people who have such studs dogs (provided they didn't only bought something in Europe) then their word and work will have some weight to both scenarios you provide. The most common is that the dam's owner chooses the dog as a stud, but I've seen too someone suggesting a male for a given female. Though at the end, is the female's owner the one who has the last word.


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