# What do you think?



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I met a lady today who got her puppy (non-GSD) from a breeder who only OVC's her dogs. She does not submitt them to the OFA.

Her dogs are titled in obedience and do feild work (retrieving?) and I believe they even do some dock diving but that is it.

Would you consider this good form, to breed dogs who are only OVC'ed?

I'm just curious as to what everyone's opinions would be on this matter.

I personally, would not purchase a puppy from a breeder who did not have OFA (and/or OVC) ratings, especially with our breed.


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## Stephanie17s (Jun 16, 2009)

I would prefer the OFA results because they give a bit more detail (Fair, Good, Excellent), over the OVC (normal for all three). However, the SV follows the same grading system as OVC as far as non-dysplasia scores go. Would I choose not to purchase a pup from a breeder who used OVC over OFA? No, not from what I have read on it.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

My thought is this: if I am purchasing a dog, I would want to know the degree in which the hips and elbows are okay.

If both parents were fair, I would be leary to purchase a puppy from those parents depending on the sport in which I am considering pursuing; such as agility. I would want a puppy from parents who had either good hips and elbows or excellent (as well as the dogs behind the parents).

Just my thought though.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

"Pups" can not have an official OFA grade until age 2. They can be prelimed before that age. It's a tough call to make. PennHipp is a much more accurate measurement and predictor of DJD.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

For me it depends on who is doing the x-rays and interpreting them. I take my dogs to one of the best radiologists in the world. Frankly, submitting the rads to OFA or the SV in Germany is merely a formality. I trust the opinion of this person the same if not more than any results from the OFA (which he has served on the panel) or a-stamp or PennHIP (which was started based on his research). Nikon's will be submitted only so that they are accessible in the databases for others who might be interested in his lines and how they score. That is why I like OFA and a-stamp, they have publicly accessible databases. I can't really comment on which methods are better or more accurate. IMO, they are as accurate as the person taking and interpreting the rads.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Free of HD = Free of HD

Really individual grades are much less of a concern, especially since they are COMPLETELY subjective. I have seen the exact same x-ray sent to OFA 3 times come back with 3 different grades.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with OVC and I don't agree with the idea of "it's *only* rated through OVC, what about OFA?" I also think country of origin needs to be taken into consideration.. if someone is in Canada, of course they are going to use OVC. Why wouldn't they? To expect them to also use OFA or some other system seems a bit ridiculous to me.

What matters is the dog either has HD, or it doesn't. What matters just as much, if not more, is the general hip genetics in the bloodline. I'd get a pup from 2 OFA Fair parents, who's littermates were also all Fair, before I'd get a pup from 2 OFA Excellent parents with a bunch of dysplastic or untested/unknown littermates.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Doc"Pups" can not have an official OFA grade until age 2. They can be prelimed before that age. It's a tough call to make. PennHipp is a much more accurate measurement and predictor of DJD.


Yes, I understand that.

But my concern was purchasing a puppy from parents who do not have a rating on them, just a clearance from OVC.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Chris WildFree of HD = Free of HD
> 
> Really individual grades are much less of a concern, especially since they are COMPLETELY subjective. I have seen the exact same x-ray sent to OFA 3 times come back with 3 different grades.
> 
> ...


I understand the point you are trying to make, and it is a vaild one, but I still wonder...

If a breeding pair were cleared through OVC and another breeding pair were cleared through both OVC and rated say, "Excellent" through OFA (along with all the littermates, etc.) wouldn't one perfer to get the ones that were rated "Excellent"?

Wouldn't that be a predictor that this breeding pair (the one that rated "Excellent") would have less of a chance of something occuring to them and to their puppies?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Personally, I have little faith in OFA's gradings much of the time. Their ability to tell whether a dog has HD or not, yes. Their ability to fairly pigeon hole it into an Excellent, Good, Fair category.. not so much. I've just seen way too much inconsistency. Inconsistencies that have left world class radiologists who probably have more skill and knowledge than many sitting on the OFA board scratching their heads. 



> Originally Posted By: elisabeth_00117Wouldn't that be a predictor that this breeding pair (the one that rated "Excellent") would have less of a chance of something occuring to them and to their puppies?


Not at all. One cannot say an Excellent has less chance of producing HD than a Fair. It doesn't work that way. That is trying to simplify it way too much and genetics just aren't that simple. 

Whether the parents have HD or not themselves is only a piece of the puzzle, not the whole thing. And the individual grades of the parents are, in my experience, an infinitesimal piece of the puzzle that are greatly outweighed by other factors. The way to gage the risk of HD is to look at the parents in terms of whether they have HD or not and then look at the general hip genetics in the bloodline. And of course the absolute best predictor in the world is to look at the past hip production of both parents. This is why the German ZW system takes those things into account in the calculation, because they are well aware that it goes way beyond the grade of the parents.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Thanks Chris!

You made some great points and cleared up a few things for me.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Thanks Chris !!


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## FredD (Jul 5, 2009)

Thanks again Chris. Good points to remember...


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## Northern GSDs (Oct 30, 2008)

Hi Chris,



> Quote:if someone is in Canada, of course they are going to use OVC. Why wouldn't they? To expect them to also use OFA or some other system seems a bit ridiculous to me.


Just curious if you could elaborate a bit more as to why the OVC would be a better choice than OFA in Canada? 

Thanks in advance!


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

I think Chris makes some good points about OFA's grading system - it isn't always accurate. What if you have a dog who is rated as borderline when xrays were first sent in, then OFA Good when they are resubmitted? I have heard of that happening. Certainly people unhappy with a Fair rating may resubmit and they may get a "better" rating the next time. Also it has been brought to my attention that there are vets who are known for getting dogs who failed OFA to get a passing xray and some people travel a good way to have such vets take their xrays. OFA is not infallible. I would be more concerned that a breeder is having their dogs evaluated than where they are getting their certification from. Another thing to consider is that in some breeders HD is pretty uncommon, which could factor into why a breeder isn't as worried about specific ratings.

Personally more than knowing the exact ratings of the parents, what seems to be more telling is knowing the ratings of as many relatives as possible - aunts, uncles, full and half siblings. You can have a parent that is rated Fair but if there is a lot of info about their littermates and their parents/parents' littermates and all had normal hips. That scenerio would weigh the odds in favor of normal hips more than a parent who is rated Excellent but has several dysplastic littermates or close relatives.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

> Quote: Just curious if you could elaborate a bit more as to why the OVC would be a better choice than OFA in Canada?


Well, I'm not Chris, but I think that she means it is easier to use the local system (cost, postage, time) than to use one from another country. Also it may be that Canadian buyers would more readily trust the Canadian OVC.

But I'm not Chris.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Andaka
> 
> 
> > Quote: Just curious if you could elaborate a bit more as to why the OVC would be a better choice than OFA in Canada?
> ...


Exactly.

Not saying either is a better or worse choice, but it comes down to where the person lives. To me it seems natural for a breeder to use the hip certification system in their home country and that has ties with their home country's kennel club/registering body and is more recognizable and probably more accepted to the majority of their customers who probably live in that same country.

And it seems silly, even arrogant, for say an American buyer looking at a Canadian breeder to take the attitude of "well, your Canadian OVC system isn't good enough, you should use my American OFA."


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## Northern GSDs (Oct 30, 2008)

Thanks for the replies! 

I was wondering if that was the reason or if maybe I was missing out on some other good tidbits that I was not aware of .


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