# A little lost. Not sure where to go from here (long)



## DTS (Oct 19, 2010)

We have been training Titan at this schutzhund club for about 8 months. 
It's a great club for newbies because people give you positive critiques, are willing to help you, and it's not very cut throat. 
However, I have some concerns and I'm wondering if I should stay or go in a different direction. I just want what's best for my boy. 
Titan is a great high drive pup. He's ALWAYS ready to go no matter what we are doing; tracking, OB, or protection. He comes out of the crate swinging so to speak. 
I'm worried that we aren't getting where we need to be. Granted he's 11 months but I don't feel we are where we need to be as far as the BH goes. 
I know I can always do more on my end with training more but when I give an idea of what I think might be the problem, they say that isn't the problem. 
Titan loves his ball.. Will give you his right kidney for this ball. But using the ball for heel work makes him forge ahead. I've tried putting it under my arm pit, throwing it behind me for the reward.. No dice. But they say to keep using it although he gets too fixated on it. 
He "leaks" drive as he is extremely vocal during OB because of the ball. Should I be concerned? They don't seem all that concerned. 
Titan is obsessed with protection. Absolutely loves it. It's the only thing he loves more than his ball and food. We are just doing bites now without blinds or anything. At the beginning we let him keep the sleeve as it was supposed to help build drive. Now he won't let go at the end. He will out it during the session but once we let him "win" at the end he won't let go. 
And I'm not getting a clear answer as to how to out him. They don't want me to tell him No because it might hurt his confidence and drive however I feel like he has a ton of drive and it is time to insert some OB because he is so obsessed with the sleeve. 
Also, every one of their dogs comes into the blind "dirty" and now they are trying to fix this and it seems to be a never ending thing. 
I don't want Titan to do this and I have to spend months trying to fix this issue. 
I feel that maybe this club might be too lax. 
They also said that most people fail the BH the first time and to be prepared to do it more than once. 
I'm just unsure if this is the right way to train a dog. 
I want to get things right the first time and correct the first time so I don't spend months fixing an issue. 
Titan has so much drive I feel like OB should be put into everything he does because he becomes so obsessive with things so easily. 
I've brought this up to the head trainer and he dismissed this. 
What should I expect from a club? 
I feel like all the videos I watch here everyone's dog is more disciplined. And I want to be that way, but I'm so new I'm trying to learn from others and I feel like maybe I'm learning from the wrong people, especially of I want to be competitive.


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## Gib_laut (Jul 25, 2014)

I've been to clubs like this. Instead of spotting for obedience they just chit chat and socialize. All the while every single dog at that club expect for the td's dog forges. 

If the club isn't right for your training goals then find another club. The thing about most dogs fail bh the first time is ridiculous. I actually laughed out loud. That comment alone would make me pick up my dog and run away as fast as I can. 

If you posted a video of your heeling I'm sure members here will give you constructive advice. 

If the dog is dirty I'd put a prong and long line on him and pop him as he's entering the blind so he is mindful. 

Nothing wrong with a dog that's possessive over the sleeve once it's slipped as long as he outs when decoy is on the sleeve. 

If the club wants to take 5 years to title a dog that's fine. If you don't then move on to another club better suited with your goals.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Track record speaks for itself, it is black and white. If your trainer/club members have titled multiple dogs from pup to SchH3 level then listen to him/them. If not then find someone who has. 8 months is nothing in this sport but there has to be a plan, ask for the long term plan for your dog.

If there is no plan and no track record, then you are ok to panic


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

11mos? Its just about time to start adding some ob to the protection,,,,,,, but maybe not,,, I think you need to trust the TD and/or helper on that. Your feeling could be exactly right, but what are they seeing? After you leave the field, you can try walking him around with the sleeve a little more, till he settles. MAybe walk him back towards the field and see if his attention goes to the field and a little less on the sleeve he has, or just the opposite, farther away till he settles that little bit. Lot of help, huh? Lol.

One problem with leaking, I think, is if it escalates to control problems. You can try really working on capping, rewarding as soon as he's silent and then building on that. It can be tough.

Is this club active? Trialing and titling dogs?


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Key item to remember is that in this sport there are a ton of people who give advice and opinions. There are "very" few who have a track record. Learn to differentiate between them.


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

I think without seeing the dog it can be hard to know for sure but I try to avoiding leaking in ob or it will lead to problems later. It also sounds like that while you are just beginning your dog it might be more of than this club can handle. I would look for another club to train with if that is possible. For the win of the sleeve maybe let him go the end of the field and calm him down to give before going all the way to the car with him.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

11 mos is pretty young. If he's forging with the ball, it is because you haven't positioned it right - put it further under your arm (ie back more). 

Most of us spend "months" working on something in Schutzhund. .. It's not a sport for the impatient trainer.


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## DTS (Oct 19, 2010)

As far as ball placement I will def try to shove it as far under my arm as possible. I'm on the small side and his ball barely fits under my arm. 
I've been using treats for the heel because he seems to listen better and doesn't leak as much. 
However I've been teaching the left turn where he has to go behind me and I've had to use the ball to gain his attention around to me. 
I'm thinking of maybe switching him to treats and then after the rutine play ball with him. That way he's more focused on me instead of his ball. 
My main thing I want to work on is his OB. Because of his obsession with the sleeve I want to have a solid OB foundation before we go any further 
He has a great bite and willingness to engage the helper. 
The one thing his heeling definitely needs is him looking at me. 
I've tried dropping the ball from my arm pit as soon as he makes eye contact but that has lead to him jumping up and grabbing the ball from my arm pit. 
Can I use a clicker for this until he gets it and then phase out the clicker? 
There is an SDA club about 2 hours from us back where my parents live. 
I was very interested in it as Titan came from a kennel that did that but couldn't find any in my area. But now I found this one. 
Can I switch to that since Titan would be considered green and it has the same fundamentals? 
They have titled dogs but it's only the head trainer and the main helper. 
Everyone else is working towards SCH 1.

ETA: I feel like Titan has all this potential and I'm failing him by being new and also that this club might be failing him because it's too lax and we need more discipline.


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## DTS (Oct 19, 2010)

Also, I asked them about doing perch work when we first started to help with rear end awareness for his heeling. He told me not to worry about that because it will come on its own. 
I would really like to teach this because the heeling should be more clean. 
Can I still teach this at this age? I know most teach this at a 3 months or so and it's one of the first things that get taught.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

There is no reason you can't do perch work with him. I'd switch to food and clicker and see what you get. It's not going to impede his drive and may help him think more instead of being in such a high state of drive for the ball. He's still very young so taking a few steps back is normal at this age. 
Get a few great paces with eye contact, click and treat. I'd also work on pivoting and positions. 
How is he in tracking? Does he have self control when he tracks?


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## DTS (Oct 19, 2010)

His tracking is a work in progress. Which is another huge thing we need to work on. 
When we started the club, we had to do 6 weeks of one on one training with the trainer which I liked. He taught us tracking and obedience. But now I'm on my own as far as what to do with tracking and OB. 
I've recently started tracking with 2 members to get a little help.
We do about a 50 ft straight track with a 45 degree bend that lasts about 20 ft. 
We are still using treats every 5 ft or so. 
They told me to lay a 10-15 ft track to begin with so he will settle down for the long track. Normally the first 10 ft he is a little spazzy and then will settle in nicely. 
But we need a TON of work on tracking. 
I'm thinking of asking him if we could set up private lessons for OB and tracking. 
There is a trail a few hours from us in February and I would like to get his BH then. I don't think that is unrealistic. 
I'm going to have a chat with the trainer and see what we can work out. 
I think we need some one on one training to help get us on track.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

DTS said:


> As far as ball placement I will def try to shove it as far under my arm as possible. I'm on the small side and his ball barely fits under my arm.
> I've been using treats for the heel because he seems to listen better and doesn't leak as much.
> However I've been teaching the left turn where he has to go behind me and I've had to use the ball to gain his attention around to me.
> I'm thinking of maybe switching him to treats and then after the rutine play ball with him. That way he's more focused on me instead of his ball.
> ...


You can work your obedience however you want DTS. The club can help, but you arent under their command to do it only one certain way. I think the biggest thing is the helper work. You need good helper work.

At 11mos, you expect some inconsistency in his attention and heeling. BE patient. At 15mos and then at 2yrs, he's going to be a different dog. Switching to something else isnt going to change that.

On the heeling, you don't really want eye contact. Thats real tough to keep up and the idea of the ball under the arm is focus on the ball, then that part of your body.


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## DTS (Oct 19, 2010)

That's they grey area I am having the most difficulty with. I am not sure what to expect out of him at 11 months. 
When I ask I get a round about response. 
He gets extremely excited about doing things. He will scream and bark all the way to the car. 
When he gets out of his crate he does the same. He will foam at the mouth and drool and kind of chatter his mouth when we get ready to leave for training or when we put his harness on for protection. 
Is all this normal? 
Can a dog have too much spirit? 
Should I allow him to do this? 
He will bark when fussing to my side and when we start to heel. 
Other than that he is always willing to work and listen. 
It's difficult for me where to draw the line of what's ok at this age because he is so smart and loves to work so much.
I try and keep it short 10-15 min sessions.
And then a nice fetch session afterwards. 
Should I shorten this or is this okay for 11 months?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Yeah, everything you're seeing can be normal, and a lot of the time with this stuff, there isnt a firm, right now answer. You have to adapt things sometimes and give it a little time.

I'd look at ways to work him a little calmer, teaching him to cap that drive and focus. You may have to correct him to interrupt the leaking so he doesn't cross over into hectic.

Have you ever watched any of Ivan Balabanov's videos? There's a lot of simple, easy to follow stuff that I really like for capping.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Not trying to be funny, but it sounds like you know more than the people who know more than you. ....you keep interjecting about you question where he is on this and that, but what are your point of reference for these conclusions. If you have not gotten to point of titling a dog, and your TD or other members have....I don't understand your basis for questioning them when you are novice with a pup that is baby. I'm really confused.


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## Gib_laut (Jul 25, 2014)

cliffson1 said:


> Not trying to be funny, but it sounds like you know more than the people who know more than you. ....you keep interjecting about you question where he is on this and that, but what are your point of reference for these conclusions. If you have not gotten to point of titling a dog, and your TD or other members have....I don't understand your basis for questioning them when you are novice with a pup that is baby. I'm really confused.


Well that's why they're here asking what should be expected of a pup this age and of a club. 

Just because a td has a titled dog doesn't mean much. Has he helped other members titled any dogs? The op said they are all working on getting an ipo1. Op sounds like she has lots of questions and if there aren't enough knowledgeable people there to help (other than the td) then it's better to find a club with more resources to fit your needs. A club where there are multiple members with titled dogs who have been there done that.


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## DTS (Oct 19, 2010)

I don't have a point of reference.. Which is why I am asking here. 
I'm confused in this whole thing. 
I watch videos here of OB and protection from dogs only a few months older or around the same age and I think.. We aren't there. 
I see the dogs at club practice their OB and they normally have multiple flaws each an every time.
One guys dog always creeps and stand during a long down. Every single session. 
One guys dog must pee on everything and never seems to want to work. 
I see others who have to command the dogs more than 2-3 times to do a command. These dogs are 2 plus years old.
One dog only does obedience because he recently bit 2 people. To
Me, I think that should mean he isn't cut out for this.
As a newbie I wouldn't think that is normal. But maybe I'm wrong. 
I was always under the impression that you would correct the unwanted behavior and nip it in the bud so it doesn't become a habit. 
Also, as I said before all the dogs come in dirty into the blind. 
In my mind that isn't right and should have been corrected this first time. 
I'm just really new and want to train the right way and this doesn't seem right. 
The trainer has told me before to be careful what I see and hear from other members and they aren't as serious in training. 
Only the trainer and helper have ever titled a dog. 
I'm just really confused on what my dog should be able to do at this age. Everytime I ask I never get an answer from the trainer. 
I want to know what areas I should focus on. I'm trying to learn as much as possible but the trainer told me to stop reading books and watching videos because the only thing two trainers can agree on is what the third one is doing wrong. 
Which I get, to an extent. 
I only go to the club every 2 Sundays and Wednesdays for bite night. And when I do go the trainer isn't very attentive and every time I ask questions I wait until the end and then he seems like he doesn't have time. 
Basically I'm just confused and need some direction. Bottom line.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I think that you are very observant and are trying to learn the right way. I also think that you worry a little too much. Have fun with your dog. Keep reading and learning from multiple sources. If you can, go check out other clubs. If that is not an option, then just keep working at it with your club and keep practicing perfection with your dog. You will probably leave the other members in the dust.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

DTS said:


> I don't have a point of reference.. Which is why I am asking here.
> I'm confused in this whole thing.
> I watch videos here of OB and protection from dogs only a few months older or around the same age and I think.. We aren't there.


Dogs mature and progress at different rates. Sometimes early and more are not better. 




> I see the dogs at club practice their OB and they normally have multiple flaws each an every time.
> One guys dog always creeps and stand during a long down. Every single session.
> One guys dog must pee on everything and never seems to want to work.
> I see others who have to command the dogs more than 2-3 times to do a command. These dogs are 2 plus years old.
> ...


 Depends on the style of training. Not everyone believes in giving corrections. 2 years old is still a young dog for most people. Not everyone is ready to get out there and rush their dogs to IPO3 by 2.5. Training is always on going and sometimes it doesn't go as we would hope. 





> Also, as I said before all the dogs come in dirty into the blind.
> In my mind that isn't right and should have been corrected this first time.
> I'm just really new and want to train the right way and this doesn't seem right.


 It happens, but if a constant, than, yes, IMO something is lacking in the training. 



> The trainer has told me before to be careful what I see and hear from other members and they aren't as serious in training.
> Only the trainer and helper have ever titled a dog.
> I'm just really confused on what my dog should be able to do at this age. Everytime I ask I never get an answer from the trainer.
> I want to know what areas I should focus on. I'm trying to learn as much as possible but the trainer told me to stop reading books and watching videos because the only thing two trainers can agree on is what the third one is doing wrong.
> Which I get, to an extent.


 You can learn a lot from books and videos, but you can also end up confused. I have seen people that switch from one idea to the next never spending time actually training and progressing with their dog. Always in a hurry to get to the final picture without taking the steps needed to get there. 




> I only go to the club every 2 Sundays and Wednesdays for bite night. And when I do go the trainer isn't very attentive and every time I ask questions I wait until the end and then he seems like he doesn't have time.
> Basically I'm just confused and need some direction. Bottom line.


I am confused. You only go every other Sunday and then Wednesdays for protection work? Are you going and training with the club when they are doing tracking and obedience too? 

Your dog is very young. Enjoy the ride and stop being in such a hurry. I have a female that will be 14 months old tomorrow. She just officially started bitework yesterday. She has had some barking and puppy circles sessions, with a few bites, but only here and there. She is a bit behind in obedience from where I would like to be. Last winter made training difficult and then I have run into some time constraints. She will be ready when she is ready. Right now I am working on the retrieve. She is doing IPO1 plus tracks though I haven't done articles on the track yet. No hurry, no rush. 

With that said, FROM YOUR DESCRIPTION, your club would drive me crazy.


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## DTS (Oct 19, 2010)

Wednesdays are just protection. 
Sundays which I go 2-3 Sundays a month depending on my work schedule. 
I just started tracking with a few members of my club on Sundays before we head to the trainers house for OB and protection. 
And then I do OB and some tracking on my own during the week.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I would try to get together with the TD or even the helper (the two people who have titled dogs) and talked to them about obedience. Find a time when they are not tired from a long day of training. Maybe you can meet up with one or the other on another day to track and do obedience. Tell them you need help instead of complaining about a lack of progress.

** Suggestions from a former TD


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