# To breed or not to breed, that is the question...



## BARBIElovesSAILOR

Hello all,

I have a question that I wanted to ask to see people's take on it. I personally, strongly disagree with buying from a breeder. I feel like every time a dog is bought from a breeder, a shelter dog loses their chance. However; I am open minded and would like to know people's arguments for breeding or buying from breeders. So the real question is:
is there ever a time when it's okay to buy from a breeder? And if so what are the circumstances that. Led you to this?why did you feel like there was no other option?and for the people who disagree with buying from a breeder, what are your reasons? I know how I feel, but at the same time I will try to be non judgemental and to learn from everyone's comments and their reasons. Thank you all for participating.


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## Athena'sMom

I see no problem with buying a puppy from a reputable breeder or buying from a rescue group. I have done both. The problem arises with rescuing adult dogs for me is I have small children and not knowing a dogs background or parentage can be dangerous.


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## onyx'girl

Buying from a breeder does not mean a shelter dog dies. That is such a ridiculous argument.
I will happily buy from a responsible breeder, those are the ones that don't have dogs ending up in shelter or rescue. 
I've also worked for rescues and have a rescued GSD. 
If people don't want to buy from a breeder, all good.
If people don't want to pay for a pup from a responsible breeder and go elsewhere for one that is cheap because a person putting two dogs together to make puppies for that market, not good. Those are the ones adding to the shelter population.


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## LoveEcho

Of course there are times when it's ok to buy from a breeder. It's a personal decision. Personally, I wanted something very specific in terms of temperament and drive, and I wanted the cards stacked in my favor. All of my rescues have been good dogs that I loved, but had major issues. I wanted to minimize those chances and know what I was getting. I also wanted a dog to compete in IPO with- something that is extremely difficult to find in a shelter (you have a slightly better chance with a rescue), and I'm too novice at the sport to know what to look for in an adult dog that would make them suitable for the sport. I also wanted a dog that would be suitable to work livestock and balanced enough to still be a house pet.

Good, reputable breeders take the time to ensure their dogs go to suitable homes where they won't be dumped, and if life circumstances change they will always take their dogs back. Most of the breeders I know are also active in rescue, through evaluating, fostering, etc. To say that a shelter dog loses their chance when someone purchases from a breeder is ignorant at best. I didn't kill another dog by buying my dog. I wasn't ready for a rescue at the time, so if I didn't buy my dog I would have ended up with NO dog- it's not just "get a dog for the sake of getting a dog, and you have two options." 

Rescues are also notoriously difficult. It is EXTREMELY difficult to adopt from GSD-specific rescues around here, especially if you have children or other animals. I've also had bad experiences with shady rescues (and yes, just like there are shady breeders, there are shady rescues). The time will come when I will take in a rescue, but there is only one person I trust at this point (and who I have enough of a relationship with where I'm not just a bulleted checklist on an application). 

As for breeding, the really good, reputable breeders do what they do to better the breed we all love. If careful breeding didn't happen, all that would be left are the genetic messes produced by Joe Schmoe with the cute puppies who would still be breeding no matter what. That would mean the end of this breed. Take the time to get to know some GOOD breeders and appreciate the amount of love and time and knowledge that goes into what they do... the work behind studying pedigrees, training and titling their dogs, etc... breeding isn't just slapping a male and female together. My female is pretty much EXACTLY what she was predicted to be when experts looked at her pedigree. It's nice to know what I'm in for... and that I also have the help and support of her breeder should issues ever arise in the future. 

Basically, it's not either-or. Many of us here have both breeder dogs and rescues, and many breeders participate in rescue. There's no, "for every puppy produced by a breeder, one dies in a shelter..."


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## wyoung2153

Hi there  Well I am glad you are at least curious. Mind you this forum is pro breeders so I do believe you will get some insight here. 

I bought Titan from a breeder before I knew why it was a good thing. And now, I am looking at rescuing. 

IMO there is no better choice between buying from a breeder vs rescue a GSD if you are wanting a companion. When it becomes important is when you want a certain temperament, a certain drive, a certain line, etc. With buying from a REPUTABLE breeder (big difference in a back yard breeder vs reputable) you are better able to predict the temperament and health of the puppies that are produced.. Reputable breeders are in business to better the breed-health, temperament, etc. and provide quality puppies to people who want that breed. 

There is nothing wrong with rescuing, but you have to understand that you don't get the same predictablity. That's really, IMO the only difference... in regards to finding a companion.

It is an entirely different ball game when you have a purpose for the dog you want. If you want to do a sport or working dog, it is, IMO, imperative you go through a breeder because you NEED to know the history of the line, the drives, temperaments, etc.


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR

Thank you everyone. Even though I still strongly believe in what I said and do not think I am ignorant, I enjoy hearing someone else's polar opinion, it helps me be more understanding even if I don't agree. So thank you all


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR

That was a helpful post. Thank you young, yes I can see why people who want their dogs to compete or take specialized training would be more inclined to purchase from a breeder.


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## d4lilbitz

I have done both...I started out with two rescue German Shepherds and the third is from a breeder. Several reasons I chose to go with a breeder is 1 ) breeder support 2) you know the parents and history and 3 ) health and temperament testing. There are more reasons, but these are my top reasons for choosing a breeder. I also foster German Shepherds and later down the road, will adopt another when the time is right. There is no right or wrong for choosing to buy from a breeder as long as the breeder is reputable. These breeders put effort into ensuring their puppies go to homes where they'll thrive. If for some reason a puppy has to be returned, they take the puppy back. 

I love my rescue boy I have now, but he is very nervy. He was an abuse/neglect case. I got him when he was 1.5 yrs old. He's come very far with training, but he has his issues. I always make sure to place him in situations where he'll succeed and feel confident. Over time, he learned to just focus on me when out and he's fine.


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## hunterisgreat

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I have a question that I wanted to ask to see people's take on it. I personally, strongly disagree with buying from a breeder. I feel like every time a dog is bought from a breeder, a shelter dog loses their chance. However; I am open minded and would like to know people's arguments for breeding or buying from breeders. So the real question is:
> is there ever a time when it's okay to buy from a breeder? And if so what are the circumstances that. Led you to this?why did you feel like there was no other option?and for the people who disagree with buying from a breeder, what are your reasons? I know how I feel, but at the same time I will try to be non judgemental and to learn from everyone's comments and their reasons. Thank you all for participating.


If you want or require a dog with certain traits. Say for example, you need a protection dog/police service dog. The *vast* majority of all GSDs are not suitable for this role. When you breed a female that is an ideal personal protection dog/police service dog to a male that is an ideal personal protection dog/police service dog, a breeder would be ecstatic if half the litter was able to fill the role of a personal protection dog. Realistically maybe one or two puppies would be. Trying to find the same quality dog in a rescue or shelter and the likelyhood drops to effectively zero.

Replace "protection dog/police service dog" with any other specific traits you may require and you have the same scenario.


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## Shade

Saying purchasing from a breeder is killing a shelter dog is truly a load of garbage. It's a chicken/egg argument, the dog was bred somewhere in the world and all dogs deserve a loving home. Where it comes from once it's born is irrelevant to the worthiness of the dog to live in a good home

If every dog was never bred again, well there would be no more dogs very quickly wouldn't there. What we need are more breeders that health test, title, and are truly working at sustaining and improving the breed rather than just breeding two dogs because they are pretty or the family wants a puppy from their special dog. Everyone believes their dog is special, but that doesn't mean they are special enough to add more dogs into the world.

I have a dog from a reputable breeder, I stupidly bought a dog from a BYB, and my first dog was rescued from a shelter. I currently volunteer with a local rescue and my parents foster for the same rescue. All my dogs were and are special in their own way, but from now on I completely leave the breeding to the people that spend years researching and planning. If you want a great dog, stack the odds in your favour


On the flip side there are many awful rescues and shelters out there just grabbing animals left and right so they can make a buck 'selling' them to Joe Public without a thought to the quality of life that animal will have. They just want to look good in the public eye and make money under the table. Those people disgust me just as much as awful breeders do


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## LoveEcho

Hey, learning is good


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## my boy diesel

> Buying from a breeder does not mean a shelter dog dies. That is such a ridiculous argument.


i have never understood this logic
if nobody adopts a shelter dog then yes it does die 

how is that not true


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## VALIUM

Shade said:


> Saying purchasing from a breeder is killing a shelter dog is truly a load of garbage. It's a chicken/egg argument, the dog was bred somewhere in the world and all dogs deserve a loving home. Where it comes from once it's born is irrelevant to the worthiness of the dog to live in a good home
> 
> If every dog was never bred again, well there would be no more dogs very quickly wouldn't there. What we need are more breeders that health test, title, and are truly working at sustaining and improving the breed rather than just breeding two dogs because they are pretty or the family wants a puppy from their special dog. Everyone believes their dog is special, but that doesn't mean they are special enough to add more dogs into the world.
> 
> I have a dog from a reputable breeder, I stupidly bought a dog from a BYB, and my first dog was rescued from a shelter. I currently volunteer with a local rescue and my parents foster for the same rescue. All my dogs were and are special in their own way, but from now on I completely leave the breeding to the people that spend years researching and planning. If you want a great dog, stack the odds in your favour
> 
> 
> On the flip side there are many awful rescues and shelters out there just grabbing animals left and right so they can make a buck 'selling' them to Joe Public without a thought to the quality of life that animal will have. They just want to look good in the public eye and make money under the table. Those people disgust me just as much as awful breeders do






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## VALIUM

Shade said:


> Saying purchasing from a breeder is killing a shelter dog is truly a load of garbage. It's a chicken/egg argument, the dog was bred somewhere in the world and all dogs deserve a loving home. Where it comes from once it's born is irrelevant to the worthiness of the dog to live in a good home
> 
> If every dog was never bred again, well there would be no more dogs very quickly wouldn't there. What we need are more breeders that health test, title, and are truly working at sustaining and improving the breed rather than just breeding two dogs because they are pretty or the family wants a puppy from their special dog. Everyone believes their dog is special, but that doesn't mean they are special enough to add more dogs into the world.
> 
> I have a dog from a reputable breeder, I stupidly bought a dog from a BYB, and my first dog was rescued from a shelter. I currently volunteer with a local rescue and my parents foster for the same rescue. All my dogs were and are special in their own way, but from now on I completely leave the breeding to the people that spend years researching and planning. If you want a great dog, stack the odds in your favour
> 
> 
> On the flip side there are many awful rescues and shelters out there just grabbing animals left and right so they can make a buck 'selling' them to Joe Public without a thought to the quality of life that animal will have. They just want to look good in the public eye and make money under the table. Those people disgust me just as much as awful breeders do


Lol I just posted without making any comment. What I was gonna say was "We'll said" ??



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## Shade

my boy diesel said:


> i have never understood this logic
> if nobody adopts a shelter dog then yes it does die
> 
> how is that not true


When I made the decision to get Delgado I had already exhausted the rescue/shelter route. I knew I was looking for a breeder so irregardless of what dogs were in the rescue/shelter I wasn't looking at adopting anyways. I wanted the health guarantee, I wanted the breeder support, I wanted the registered pedigree, I wanted a dog I could trust in most if not all circumstances - I wasn't even opening Petfinder or checking anywhere so yes a good match may have slipped through my fingers but truly I didn't and don't care.

People that have decided either way (and that is a high percentage) aren't going to be swayed. Or the opposite happens and they see a photo and fall in love within moments, where the dog came from at that moment doesn’t matter one bit.


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## zetti

LoveEcho said:


> Of course there are times when it's ok to buy from a breeder. It's a personal decision. Personally, I wanted something very specific in terms of temperament and drive, and I wanted the cards stacked in my favor. All of my rescues have been good dogs that I loved, but had major issues. I wanted to minimize those chances and know what I was getting. I also wanted a dog to compete in IPO with- something that is extremely difficult to find in a shelter (you have a slightly better chance with a rescue), and I'm too novice at the sport to know what to look for in an adult dog that would make them suitable for the sport. I also wanted a dog that would be suitable to work livestock and balanced enough to still be a house pet.
> 
> Good, reputable breeders take the time to ensure their dogs go to suitable homes where they won't be dumped, and if life circumstances change they will always take their dogs back. Most of the breeders I know are also active in rescue, through evaluating, fostering, etc. To say that a shelter dog loses their chance when someone purchases from a breeder is ignorant at best. I didn't kill another dog by buying my dog. I wasn't ready for a rescue at the time, so if I didn't buy my dog I would have ended up with NO dog- it's not just "get a dog for the sake of getting a dog, and you have two options."
> 
> Rescues are also notoriously difficult. It is EXTREMELY difficult to adopt from GSD-specific rescues around here, especially if you have children or other animals. I've also had bad experiences with shady rescues (and yes, just like there are shady breeders, there are shady rescues). The time will come when I will take in a rescue, but there is only one person I trust at this point (and who I have enough of a relationship with where I'm not just a bulleted checklist on an application).
> 
> As for breeding, the really good, reputable breeders do what they do to better the breed we all love. If careful breeding didn't happen, all that would be left are the genetic messes produced by Joe Schmoe with the cute puppies who would still be breeding no matter what. That would mean the end of this breed. Take the time to get to know some GOOD breeders and appreciate the amount of love and time and knowledge that goes into what they do... the work behind studying pedigrees, training and titling their dogs, etc... breeding isn't just slapping a male and female together. My female is pretty much EXACTLY what she was predicted to be when experts looked at her pedigree. It's nice to know what I'm in for... and that I also have the help and support of her breeder should issues ever arise in the future.
> 
> Basically, it's not either-or. Many of us here have both breeder dogs and rescues, and many breeders participate in rescue. There's no, "for every puppy produced by a breeder, one dies in a shelter..."



Unfortunately, there are shady rescues out there. I've adopted from them. I have also owned byb.

You're exactly right. Too much of the breeding goes on at the bottom. If good breeders who breed to the standard, get their health clearances, title their dogs, etc, didn't exist, the GSD would be complletely ruined.

Dogs are not fungible. My buying a pup for IPO doesn't mean there is a shelter dog I didn't take. It means I'm not likely to find a puppy with the right drives, nerves & temperament for IPO at the shelter.

I've done plenty of rescue, btw.


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## osito23

I have 4 dogs that all came from different places/situations. My lab mix came from a pregnant dog that we found on the streets of Mexico. A family member took the dog in, cared for her when she had her puppies, found homes for them (we took 1), got her spayed, and she still lives with her now. My aussie mix came from a high kill animal shelter. My chihuahua/dachshund mix came from a rescue. I have also fostered and volunteered at animal shelters, so I am well acquainted with the pet overpopulation problem. My 4th dog is a GSD from a responsible breeder. Why did we decide to go that route?

1. We wanted a GSD; a dog with specific traits and temperament. While we are definitely a "pet home," we also wanted a dog to get involved in sports with.

2. A well-bred GSD is a wonderful dog, but a poorly-bred one can be a disaster and a liability. We needed a dog that would be safe and social around people, kids, our other dogs, and our cat.

3. I wanted to stack the odds in my favor by getting a dog with a good genetic background and raising the dog the way I wanted to from a puppy. 

There are many wonderful dogs in shelters and rescues. I know it; I have 3 at my feet right now. But I strongly disagree with the idea that someone who buys from a responsible breeder is taking a home away from a shelter dog. I got my GSD with specific things in mind, and a shelter dog would not have fit my requirements. This doesn't mean that I won't rescue another dog in the future or that I don't help shelters and rescues now in other ways. Also there's a huge difference between the truly responsible, reputable breeders whose dogs do not end up in animal shelters and your average back yard breeder who pumps out puppies just to make a buck. But the biggest problem are the irresponsible pet owners whose intact pets continue to breed indiscriminately and fill up animal shelters.

Pet overpopulation is a serious issue, but good breeders and those who buy from them aren't the problem. If you want to make a difference: educate people on responsible pet ownership, spaying/neutering pets, only getting a suitable pet for your lifestyle, training your pets, and not getting rid of your pets when are no longer new and become an "inconvenience."


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## Chris Wild

my boy diesel said:


> i have never understood this logic
> if nobody adopts a shelter dog then yes it does die
> 
> how is that not true


Because it assumes that the shelter dog and the dog purchased from a breeder are the same, with equivalent traits. This is only very rarely the case. Most often, they are apples and oranges.

Now if someone is just looking for a sound family pet and doesn't have particular requirements for breed, size, color, etc... then certainly they may be able to find this dog in a shelter. If they are looking for a sound family pet that is also a purebred of a specific breed, their chances drop but it is still possible.

If, as has been said previously in the thread, someone is looking for a dog for a specific purpose... competition in any number of sports, police work, SAR, guide work, service work, show, then the chances of them finding such a dog in a shelter are very slim. If they want documented pedigree and known ancestry on the dog... which isn't just for ego but can provide valuable insight into any health or temperament problems that may be present in the bloodlines and thus arise in the future... then the chances of finding that in a shelter are pretty much zero.

So bottom line, for many pet owners the shelter is a viable option. For pet owners looking for something specific, it often is not. For people looking for dogs for sport or work, they'd have a better chance finding a needle in a haystack in most cases. Thus, there is really no competition. The shelter doesn't offer what some people want, and breeders are the only option. Likewise, the breeders with proven track records of producing quality dogs that can succeed in a variety of endeavors are typically not the ones whose dogs end up in the shelter. 

So it is absolutely NOT correct to say that when they buy from a breeder a shelter dog dies, because what they want isn't going to be found in the shelter.


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## my boy diesel

well usually what really happens is that people dont want a rescued dog but dont want to fork over the $1200 or more for a well bred one so they go to a bad breeder 

and get a crap dog from them

more people should encourage rescue when people dont want to spend or cannot spend $1000 + for a well bred dog

because until that happens bad breeders will always have a market

you do realize that people on this forum are a minority in actually caring about where their puppy comes from, right? 



> what they want isn't going to be found in the shelter.


 i replied to shade and when i hit the enter key i saw your reply
i do think that other than high level ipo for instance you can find good dogs in shelters
drug detection and bomb dogs and sar dogs often come from shelters and the people who train them visit shelters regularly to check for ball crazy dogs to be their next drug or bomb dog


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## LoveEcho

my boy diesel said:


> i replied to shade and when i hit the enter key i saw your reply
> i do think that other than high level ipo for instance you can find good dogs in shelters
> drug detection and bomb dogs and sar dogs often come from shelters and the people who train them visit shelters regularly to check for ball crazy dogs to be their next drug or bomb dog


I don't think it's "often." It does happen, sure... and usually the rescues that are used are actually really well-bred dogs that somehow ended up in a shelter (or more commonly, a breed-specific rescue). The chances of finding one are pretty small though, and then a fairly large amount of resources has to go into evaluation and fixing whatever problems the dog likely has. I know of someone who has a dutchie who would very likely have made an excellent narc dog, but a monumental amount of time and resources would need to go into fixing her issues in order for her to be functional for a police unit. He's a retired officer who solely does rescue now, so he's got that time, but most departments don't have that available.


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## my boy diesel

do you have those statistics loveecho? i cant find any atm
but i believe it happens more often than not they find a great dog for doing what they are needing if it is drug or bomb detection or what have you


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## onyx'girl

I know of a few people that go to shelters and get the beagle breed mixes for bedbug detection. Most all of them are successful in training to detect. 
When responsible breeders screen carefully their puppy owners they are doing their best to prevent the pup ending anywhere without their consent or being informed of the rehome. There are brokers/breeders that only care about a sale. Yesterday I alerted a trainer/breeder about one of his sales being on an adoption page. He had no idea, and I hope he'll get that dog back to place in a more appropriate home. 
It isn't always a breeders fault when one of their pups/dogs end up in a shelter.


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## Shade

No, most people realize that dogs without a registered pedigree can't be proven purebred any more than a shelter dog of unknown origin can. Where the BYB and the like make their money is off the bogus registries like the Continental Kennel Club. They sucker in those people that just see ‘pedigree’ or ‘papers’ and don’t look any further. But they're willing to take that chance because the parents *look* purebred enough and the puppies are too adorable to resist and cheap. 

Or a BYB gets their hands on a dog with a well-known sire/dam and breeds the dogs gloating over their ancestor’s success. Joe Public doesn't care if it's 4-5 or even 10 generations removed, they just like the thought that their dog came from Rin Tin Tin's lines or the like.


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## my boy diesel

i just did find this
Street dogs rescued from shelter given second chance as police dogs (VIDEO) » DogHeirs | Where Dogs Are Family « Keywords: shelter dogs, K9


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR

*Good points shanna*



Shade said:


> Saying purchasing from a breeder is killing a shelter dog is truly a load of garbage. It's a chicken/egg argument, the dog was bred somewhere in the world and all dogs deserve a loving home. Where it comes from once it's born is irrelevant to the worthiness of the dog to live in a good home
> 
> If every dog was never bred again, well there would be no more dogs very quickly wouldn't there. What we need are more breeders that health test, title, and are truly working at sustaining and improving the breed rather than just breeding two dogs because they are pretty or the family wants a puppy from their special dog. Everyone believes their dog is special, but that doesn't mean they are special enough to add more dogs into the world.
> 
> I have a dog from a reputable breeder, I stupidly bought a dog from a BYB, and my first dog was rescued from a shelter. I currently volunteer with a local rescue and my parents foster for the same rescue. All my dogs were and are special in their own way, but from now on I completely leave the breeding to the people that spend years researching and planning. If you want a great dog, stack the odds in your favour
> 
> 
> On the flip side there are many awful rescues and shelters out there just grabbing animals left and right so they can make a buck 'selling' them to Joe Public without a thought to the quality of life that animal will have. They just want to look good in the public eye and make money under the table. Those people disgust me just as much as awful breeders do


You made some good point shanna, I may not agree with you 100% and do not think what I say is garbage... Ha ha ha... Anyway, I do agree with you on people should not just be breeding because they want to make cute dogs. I guess if it has to be done, it should be done for a purpose more important than that, such as improving the health and temperament. I can understand this side of the argument.


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## Ace GSD

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> ... Anyway, I do agree with you on people should not just be breeding because they want to make cute dogs. I guess if it has to be done, it should be done for a purpose more important than that, such as improving the health and temperament. I can understand this side of the argument.


This i agree 100%... Some breeders are just in it for the quick money... God knows what happens to unsold puppies... I got Ace from a Backyard breeder and this guy seem to have litters every months. I dont regret having my puppy but in a way i regret of supporting that breeder.


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR

SORRY! SHADE! Not shanna, what was I thinking hahah, sorry!


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## Shade

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> You made some good point shanna, I may not agree with you 100% and do not think what I say is garbage... Ha ha ha... Anyway, I do agree with you on people should not just be breeding because they want to make cute dogs. I guess if it has to be done, it should be done for a purpose more important than that, such as improving the health and temperament. I can understand this side of the argument.


I'm saying the phrase is garbage, not the people saying it - most are simply repeating what they've been told. I apologize if you took it the other way as I didn't mean it in that way. Thick skins are needed when you can't hear inflections behind the words unfortunately


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## Shade

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> SORRY! SHADE! Not shanna, what was I thinking hahah, sorry!


lol My name is Shanna so either is correct


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## middleofnowhere

I've had a mix of purchased dogs and pound dogs and "other" (as in personal acquisition/rehome situation). 

A reputable breeder looks to produce exceptional dogs - re temperment and health and assure the future of the breed.

The people that I see causing problems with "shelter" or pound dogs are the ones that breed without health clearances, without the goal of a "better dog". Like people who just let their animals breed with whomever is in season/available. Or people who do not care or well-meaning but ignorant people who put two "nice looking" "sweet" dogs together.

To me it is "right" to buy from a reputable breeder when you want to and can afford it.


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR

*Wow*



my boy diesel said:


> i just did find this
> Street dogs rescued from shelter given second chance as police dogs (VIDEO) » DogHeirs | Where Dogs Are Family « Keywords: shelter dogs, K9


Bravo diesel! Thank you!


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## LoveEcho

my boy diesel said:


> i just did find this
> Street dogs rescued from shelter given second chance as police dogs (VIDEO) » DogHeirs | Where Dogs Are Family « Keywords: shelter dogs, K9


It does happen, and it's GREAT. Bear in mind, it's not going to happen for patrol dogs. But it also has a LOT to do with the resources available. On state and local levels, it's not as easy to go through large agencies that solely rescue and rehab dogs for this purpose. A K9 guy I know in town has said that they've tried it a couple of times (with maligators, mind you.... easier to find a well-bred mal in a shelter than a well-bred GSD, I would imagine), and it hasn't worked. They don't have the resources available to consistently rehab these dogs... there aren't teams of people lined up to take the months or years to rehab and train them, and most of them come with major issues. 

Plus, with how watered down the GSD is becoming (poorly bred ones are rapidly outnumbering well bred ones), I imagine this is going to continue to be harder and harder to do. The dogs they are pulling and rehabbing are usually still well-bred dogs that somehow ended up in rescues... not 5th generation BYB dog.


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR

*Ok*



Shade said:


> I'm saying the phrase is garbage, not the people saying it - most are simply repeating what they've been told. I apologize if you took it the other way as I didn't mean it in that way. Thick skins are needed when you can't hear inflections behind the words unfortunately


I do have a thick skin and am not bothered by what you said , I'm just more of entertained by how you said it lol. Anyway, for you and everyone else, please do not hold back and say what is on your minds, I am truly intrigued by the different opinions on this topic for which we all feel so passionate about


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## lalachka

if rescues weren't so picky and if they were willing to work with people on the neutering part (i offered vasectomy) then I would've rescued. 

for my first dog a rescue would've done just fine. my second will probably come from a breeder. I want to try sport.


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## LuvShepherds

It depends on why you want the dog, what you plan to do with it and your abilities as a trainer. A rescue dog might need to be retrained as part of the training process. Only an experienced trainer knows how to do that, so you could end up getting a less expensive dog and then pay more for the training. If you are a natural or experienced trainer and can do that yourself, then go for a rescue. There are beautiful purebred dogs in shelter and rescue groups. If you go that route, try to get a dog you can foster first or test out in your home before committing. It's kinder to you and the dog. When I've done that, the answer was clear. I've turned fosters back to the rescue when it wasn't a match. 

If you have a specific training plan in mind, like SAR or IPO, you have a more direct route toward your goal with a dog that was bred for that type of work and training. 

I've done both. What's important is to make the right decision for you at this point in your life, not because you think you should follow someone else's idea of the right way to obtain a dog.


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## lhczth

I used to train where US customs boarded their dogs. The procurement guy also would board dogs as he went around his territory looking for prospects. Sometimes he was able to find a trailer full (12 dogs) in his search and sometimes he found 2. Of those a small percentage ended up being able to do the job. There just are not enough rescue/shelter dogs available that are suitable for the working world and if we eliminated breeders there would be none at all. 

Not everyone wants a dog from rescue. Some people want and need a dog bred for a specific purpose. If breeders did not exist many of these people would not just go adopt a dog. They would just not get a dog at all. Blaming the death of a shelter dog on people who buy puppies from a breeder is a emotional guilt trip and nothing more. Blame should be laid at the feet of those responsible. The people who dumped them in the first place.


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## Lilie

If someone tells me they are looking for a dog with specific behaviors; good with children, quiet, good natured (etc.) I always direct them to rescues. Most have already housed the dog (with Fosters) and already know what could be expected from the dog. 

If someone tells me they are looking for a dog with specific traits, I'll provide information regarding reputable breeders. 

The big difference for me - is if someone comes to me and tells me they are looking for a dog because their dog of umpteen years just died, I'll direct to a rescue. I think it does their heart good.


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## lauren43

I was in your place once. I wholeheartedly believed that you could get any kind of dog from a rescue. And that not rescuing does take a home away from an animal in need. 

But here's the reality and it's a sad one, you simply can't save them all. And not all rescues are suitable for adoption. But it seems as humans we love to stand by the long shots, the dogs with bite records, while perfectly good, well rounded dogs die in shelters daily. {personally I think this the bigger issue with the rescue world}

And as others have said: not all rescues are created equal (neither are breeders for that matter). Some will lie about the dogs they have to get them adopted. Others make the adoption process so strenuous most of us here would not get the go ahead. And I do understand why these policies are in place, but where do you draw the line when finding the right home for a dog?

I did the whole rescue thing. My first dog was 8 months when I adopted him. I miss Avery every single day, but he simply wasn't easy to live with. His fear issues were so extreme he cowered in fear if something fell off the table or if I put the blinds down. He became very fear reactive to strangers and anyone outside his "inner circle"...to top it all off he had a MCT removed at 2 and he died of lymphoma at 4. 

And I later found out the lovely rescue I got him from that had a beautiful website filled with all these beautiful heart wrenching stories of dogs that found their way...was being run my a dog hoarder. Who kept at least 1/2 of their adoptable dogs caged in his basement without proper care (things as simple as a clean place to sleep and water), and you could forget about proper medical care. The dogs that died in his hands, well they still haunt me..

So for me, going with a breeder, was what I needed this time around. I want a dog with solid nerves and a dog with known lines so hopefully I can avoid the heartbreak of a short lived dog...


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Sunflowers

So, Barbie, where do you think the shelter dogs came from?


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## Lilie

Sunflowers said:


> So, Barbie, where do you think the shelter dogs came from?


If this is about the birds and the bees, hang on a sec and let me get something to take notes with.


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## ILGHAUS

Chris Wild said:


> Because it assumes that the shelter dog and the dog purchased from a breeder are the same, with equivalent traits. This is only very rarely the case. Most often, they are apples and oranges.
> 
> Now if someone is just looking for a sound family pet and doesn't have particular requirements for breed, size, color, etc... then certainly they may be able to find this dog in a shelter. If they are looking for a sound family pet that is also a purebred of a specific breed, their chances drop but it is still possible.
> 
> If, as has been said previously in the thread, someone is looking for a dog for a specific purpose... competition in any number of sports, police work, SAR, guide work, service work, show, then the chances of them finding such a dog in a shelter are very slim. If they want documented pedigree and known ancestry on the dog... which isn't just for ego but can provide valuable insight into any health or temperament problems that may be present in the bloodlines and thus arise in the future... then the chances of finding that in a shelter are pretty much zero.
> 
> So bottom line, for many pet owners the shelter is a viable option. For pet owners looking for something specific, it often is not. For people looking for dogs for sport or work, they'd have a better chance finding a needle in a haystack in most cases. Thus, there is really no competition. The shelter doesn't offer what some people want, and breeders are the only option. Likewise, the breeders with proven track records of producing quality dogs that can succeed in a variety of endeavors are typically not the ones whose dogs end up in the shelter.
> 
> So it is absolutely NOT correct to say that when they buy from a breeder a shelter dog dies, because what they want isn't going to be found in the shelter.



When my children were young all of our family dogs (pets) were rescues or strays that wondered into our yard. They were wonderful and loving and fulfilled the purpose for which they were needed.

Move ahead years later and when I began looking for a dog for me and my purposes I went to a breeder.

I have been involved in rescue and a bit of fostering for years. I pulled, dropped off & picked up dogs from the vet, transported, fund raised, joined groups, took and posted pictures on websites, and did home checks for rescues out of area that were adopting to people in my area. For a couple of years I sat on the Board of Directors for our local humane society. Besides the local HS I also did work with our county animal shelter and was part of a team that helped bring it from a high kill to low kill shelter. I know the highs of saving and the heart break of dogs being euthanized. 

I do not go along with that saying about buying a dog from a breeder means a shelter dog dies. I will not let anyone lay blame on me for any dog dying. *I could very well turn around and claim that because of them adopting only 1 dog from a rescue or buying only 1 dog from a shelter instead of two that they allowed a dog to die.* 

I have been a CGC Evaluator for a long while and I would say about half the dogs I have passed were full blooded and about half were mixes. The same ratio probably pretty close to those I have failed. So for pets for families this testing goes along with my previous statement that a good family pet (or even a pet for an individual) a rescue is a wonderful choice. I always recommend a rescue over a shelter dog for a family with children as most rescues have had the dog longer and a good many have had them in a foster setup of some type.

I am also very involved with Assistance aka Service Dogs for people with disabilities. I know how hard it is to find the proper dog for the work. I have evaluated dogs in shelters and found many that would make a great pet but never one that I thought was suitable to be pulled as a SD Candidate. I know many people who claim to have done so and I have seen some of the dogs during and after training. 

I am in the process of looking for a new pup for myself. It hasn't been easy as I have a want list that some items I could work around while some I hold as a very high priority. For this I need to go to a breeder who I can trust to be looking out for my needs as much as finding a good home for their pups. I need a breeder who knows about the parents and the grandparents and how siblings and others in the family lines have turned out. I need more than finding a pup that will grow up to be friendly with my guests and loving to family. I need a pup that I can raise and train to be my working partner in several venues.

As Chris mentioned track records for working dogs -- I need a pup from lines with certain proven track records. I need a dog that will grow to at a least a minimum height. I need a dog that has a very good chance to have a good work ethic and solid balanced temperament.


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## lalachka

nice point in bold. yeah, the guilt trips are annoying. it makes the rescue movement lose credibility when they resort to this kind of stuff.


ETA though that point only works for people thst wouldn't adopt if there were no breeders. if a person would've adopted if there were no breeders then there's logic in it. but i don't agree with these tactics. I didn't put any dogs in the shelter. I don't owe it to pick up other people's slack. I do feel bad for the dogs but this is never ending. more dogs keep turning up. I can see myself helping out if there was an end in sight. there's not. something needs to be changed.


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## my boy diesel

> Of those a small percentage ended up being able to do the job.


but how many purebreds from breeders wash out?
i mean we could go on all day but truth is many shelters dogs do make wonderful pets and also working dogs
my response anyway was towards people who believe you *have* to buy a dog to make it a bomb or drug dog and that is not the case


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## JakodaCD OA

I have had rescue dogs and I've had dogs from breeders. Each one I got for a reason. I don't hold it against anyone who chooses to do either. 

I don't feel guilty about buying from a breeder, I'm looking for something specific, I'm looking for healthy solid backgrounds. To each his own


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## Galathiel

If I opt not to get a dog at all, does that mean a shelter dog dies as well? That's why that phrase is a little skewed. Getting a dog from a breeder,doesn't mean that the spot in my home now can't be filled by a shelter dog. That spot was never going to be available for a shelter dog. *shrug* Sorry, but that's the truth. I'm not bothered by other people's perceptions and ideologies. I have to make the best decision for me and my household.


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## wyoung2153

My opinion on the "what about all the dogs in a shelter, no one should buy from breeders, etc, etc, etc..." 

There aren't so many dogs in shelters because people are buying from breeders. There are so many dogs in shelters because people in our society have lost the ability to care for animals throughout changes in their life or the dogs and have not educated themselves on what it takes to raise one. They don't think about the money it costs to care for a dog, they don't consider vet bills, or food bills, etc. and they are uneducated on dogs and their behavior. You have people giving them up because they are too old, they are sick, they are big, they are small, they moved, had babies, their kid poked the dog and it growled, etc. THAT is why there are dogs in shelters and that's why they are put down so often. The blame cannot be put on the breeders, this is our society that has caused that to happen.


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR

*Agreed*



wyoung2153 said:


> My opinion on the "what about all the dogs in a shelter, no one should buy from breeders, etc, etc, etc..."
> 
> There aren't so many dogs in shelters because people are buying from breeders. There are so many dogs in shelters because people in our society have lost the ability to care for animals throughout changes in their life or the dogs and have not educated themselves on what it takes to raise one. They don't think about the money it costs to care for a dog, they don't consider vet bills, or food bills, etc. and they are uneducated on dogs and their behavior. You have people giving them up because they are too old, they are sick, they are big, they are small, they moved, had babies, their kid poked the dog and it growled, etc. THAT is why there are dogs in shelters and that's why they are put down so often. The blame cannot be put on the breeders, this is our society that has caused that to happen.


I believe that the problem with so many dogs in the shelters is mostly what you are saying. I think it's irresponsible owners, people who aren't fit to be dog parents for whatever reason. Also not spaying and neutering, they give the puppies away, the puppies end up with other irresponsible pet owners, and those puppies get dumped and end up in a shelters not always but I would say its 50/50. Also to the person who asked me that poignant question, where do dogs from shelters come from. I think I just explained it above but let's look at "reputable breeders" shall we? A breeder breeds the dogs, and sells them to someone. The person has the dog for a while gets annoyed and doesn't want it anymore. They can return the dog to the breeder for free,they can sell it themselves and make a buck, or if they moved out of state the likelihood of them returning the dog is null so they again, sell it or give it away for free. In every scenario BUT returning the dog to a breeder, the new family could in essence dump the dog in a shelter after the novelty wears off. I do agree that not as much blame should be placed on adopters buyers as it should be placed on the owners, but then... Couldn't they end up being the same people? So therefore the blame is directed correctly? Then again, I don't set out to blame people or force my opinions on people, I am more interested in open dialogue and sharing ideas to reach an understanding. I don't agree with people who set out to shame others.mokay the end


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## Pax8

My first GSD was a rescue. I loved him, but he was a nervy, anxious, fear-biting mess. When his epilepsy escalated and he became too much of a danger to me and the people who lived with me, I had to make the decision to put him down. I knew I wanted another shepherd after him, but dealing with his anxiety and aggression was EXHAUSTING and he wasn't even around for years like some of the fear aggressive dogs other forum members care for. 

When I went to get my second GSD, I knew I wanted stable temperament and good health. I tried all kinds of rescues in my area, but I was immediately rejected by every single one because I was in my last year of college and I was going to be in an apartment after I moved out of the shared house. So no matter what GSD I found that may fit into my lifestyle, the rescue refused to adopt to me. Does that mean I don't deserve a GSD? I maybe could have gone the shelter route, but very little is known about their background, health is a crapshoot, and I just went through a year of dealing with a worst case scenario of both, so I felt like I was justifiably concerned about getting a shelter GSD. 

Finally, I researched an excellent hobby breeder (UKC registry). They work and health test their dogs. They have extensive information and good contacts with the owners of all the parents and grandparents going four generations back. They had previous customers who I was allowed to call and ask about how their dogs were doing three, five, seven years down the line. They will take back any of their dogs at any point in case anything happens (they were in the process of rehoming a dog when I got there after its owner was diagnosed with cancer). They have even tracked down their own dogs out of shelters and pulled them to find appropriate homes. They are not a big operation. They are more what someone might call a hobby breeder, but they have clear intentions to produce dogs with excellent health, temperament, and nerves.

To say that my dog killed a homeless dog when I bought him is ridiculous to me. A rescue would not adopt to me, and I was not going to adopt from a shelter. If I hadn't found a reputable breeder, I simply would not have gotten a dog. It doesn't matter what dogs are in the shelter, I was not going to adopt them anyways. Maybe much later in my life, I will consider adopting again, but it won't be happening anytime soon, and it certainly was not going to happen at the point that I was looking for a new dog. 

It's even more ridiculous to me the notion that Kaiju's breeders have contributed to the shelter population when they have actively tracked down their own dogs that have been given up for whatever reason and pulled them from shelters and used their own resources to find them new homes.

If you truly want to continue saying that, I would suggest learning more about a backyard breeder vs a responsible breeder and clarifying your statement to "backyard breeders contribute to overpopulation".


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## wyoung2153

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> I believe that the problem with so many dogs in the shelters is mostly what you are saying. I think it's irresponsible owners, people who aren't fit to be dog parents for whatever reason. Also not spaying and neutering, they give the puppies away, the puppies end up with other irresponsible pet owners, and those puppies get dumped and end up in a shelters not always but I would say its 50/50. Also to the person who asked me that poignant question, where do dogs from shelters come from. I think I just explained it above but let's look at "reputable breeders" shall we? A breeder breeds the dogs, and sells them to someone. The person has the dog for a while gets annoyed and doesn't want it anymore. They can return the dog to the breeder for free,they can sell it themselves and make a buck, or if they moved out of state the likelihood of them returning the dog is null so they again, sell it or give it away for free. In every scenario BUT returning the dog to a breeder, the new family could in essence dump the dog in a shelter after the novelty wears off. I do agree that not as much blame should be placed on adopters buyers as it should be placed on the owners, but then... Couldn't they end up being the same people? So therefore the blame is directed correctly? Then again, I don't set out to blame people or force my opinions on people, I am more interested in open dialogue and sharing ideas to reach an understanding. I don't agree with people who set out to shame others.mokay the end


But that's just it. A "reputable breeder" is going to be in contact with those the adopt to. They are going to know the ins and outs of what is going on and often times there is a clause in the contract about returning the dog back to the breeder if they cannot care for it anymore. Not only that but MOSTLY, reputable breeders are pretty good at screening people who adopt, not saying some don't fall through the crack but generally speaking they are a good judge of character. And someone paying $1500-$2500 for a puppy isn't going to "get bored" and all of a sudden give it away.. unless they are rolling in cash, and well.. then they can afford that. And reputable breeders WILL take their dogs back and not put them into shelters..

A Back yard breeder is another story. Someone who has a litter of puppies for no other reason than selling them to make a profit. Those are the types of breeders that "we" encourage others to stay away from. They have no intentions for their dogs other than breeding and making money, they usually have no education on dogs, and no idea where they came from, or anything with their health history. They are there to make a buck. The pump out puppies on demand because it's a business to them. They won't take dogs back, they don't care what happens to them after they are sold. 

This still doesn't mean that the blame is placed on breeders, even BYB (though some will argue that). In the end the blame, because yes it can be placed, is on society and the ignorance of people owning dogs. The lack of rules and regulations taken seriously in regards to owning and raising a dog. I can repeat what I said above, but those that are to blame are the people that dump them, then turn around and get another thinking it will be different.


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## Pax8

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> I think I just explained it above but let's look at "reputable breeders" shall we? A breeder breeds the dogs, and sells them to someone. The person has the dog for a while gets annoyed and doesn't want it anymore.


A reputable breeder isn't selling dogs to any old person. The breeder I got Kaiju from has rejected people because they were not prepared for a puppy, were looking for a first dog and it was obvious a shepherd wasn't for them, came in asking just for a certain color without any concern about the dog's temperament. A reputable breeder screens so their dogs have the best chance at getting a home where they stay permanently. 



BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> They can return the dog to the breeder for free,they can sell it themselves and make a buck, or if they moved out of state the likelihood of them returning the dog is null so they again, sell it or give it away for free. In every scenario BUT returning the dog to a breeder, the new family could in essence dump the dog in a shelter after the novelty wears off.


If a dog doesn't work out, reputable breeders WANT their dog back. They often keep up communication with people who have bought their dogs. I give Kaiju's breeders a call every few months to update them on how he is doing. If I didn't call, they would probably send me an email and make sure everything is alright. They keep up similar relationships with all their customers. Some they have yearly contacts with, some more often. But reputable breeders aren't just throwing their dogs out into the world and hoping for the best. Even after their dogs leave the house, they are often keeping tabs on them.

Plus, it is in Kaiju's contract and possibly many other contracts with reputable breeders that the breeders have right of first refusal. If you want to sell the dog or hand it over to rescue, you HAVE the contact the breeder first and give the breeder the option of taking it before you can sell it or give up to rescue. If not, the breeder can and most likely will take legal action against you.



BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> I do agree that not as much blame should be placed on adopters buyers as it should be placed on the owners, but then... Couldn't they end up being the same people? So therefore the blame is directed correctly? Then again, I don't set out to blame people or force my opinions on people, I am more interested in open dialogue and sharing ideas to reach an understanding. I don't agree with people who set out to shame others.mokay the end


Many people who go to reputable breeders are not the ones giving up dogs because they got too big or drooled too much. You're thinking of those who often buy from backyard breeders. People who go to reputable breeders and pass a breeder's evaluation to buy one of their dogs are probably one of the least likely to give up a dog because they have gotten a dog that they probably fully understand vis a vis temperament, health, and basic health and training requirements. Again, I think you need a lot more education before you throw out inflammatory statements like these.


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR

*Response*



wyoung2153 said:


> But that's just it. A "reputable breeder" is going to be in contact with those the adopt to. They are going to know the ins and outs of what is going on and often times there is a clause in the contract about returning the dog back to the breeder if they cannot care for it anymore. Not only that but MOSTLY, reputable breeders are pretty good at screening people who adopt, not saying some don't fall through the crack but generally speaking they are a good judge of character. And someone paying $1500-$2500 for a puppy isn't going to "get bored" and all of a sudden give it away.. unless they are rolling in cash, and well.. then they can afford that. And reputable breeders WILL take their dogs back and not put them into shelters..
> 
> A Back yard breeder is another story. Someone who has a litter of puppies for no other reason than selling them to make a profit. Those are the types of breeders that "we" encourage others to stay away from. They have no intentions for their dogs other than breeding and making money, they usually have no education on dogs, and no idea where they came from, or anything with their health history. They are there to make a buck. The pump out puppies on demand because it's a business to them. They won't take dogs back, they don't care what happens to them after they are sold.
> 
> This still doesn't mean that the blame is placed on breeders, even BYB (though some will argue that). In the end the blame, because yes it can be placed, is on society and the ignorance of people owning dogs. The lack of rules and regulations taken seriously in regards to owning and raising a dog. I can repeat what I said above, but those that are to blame are the people that dump them, then turn around and get another thinking it will be different.


I never said a breeder would put their dog in a shelter? They put their dogs in homes of people they trust to care for the dog for its lifetime. But even in the best case scenario where breeders try to remain in constant contact and try to search rescues to make sure none of their dogs end up there, there is still a huge chance they can not prevent every one of their dogs from ending up in shelters, run over, tortured, beaten, strays, etc... So maybe it's not the breeders fault, but like I said irresponsible pet owners, so we do agree on that. And YES people will spend thousands of dollars on a dog but for whatever reason will surrender it. It could be health related, it could be they had a baby and now don't have time, and rather than giving it back to the breeder for free they would rather recoup some of their money so they sell it. This is a more realistic view of what actually happens. To say that breeders will hunt down their dogs and will always take them back and a good breeder will make sure their dogs don't end up in shelters can not be 100% predicted. I think we can both agree on that, just as we can both agree that just because a breeder breeds dogs doesn't mean their dogs can go to perfectly lovely homes and never contribute to overpopulation in shelters.


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR

*Oops*



wyoung2153 said:


> But that's just it. A "reputable breeder" is going to be in contact with those the adopt to. They are going to know the ins and outs of what is going on and often times there is a clause in the contract about returning the dog back to the breeder if they cannot care for it anymore. Not only that but MOSTLY, reputable breeders are pretty good at screening people who adopt, not saying some don't fall through the crack but generally speaking they are a good judge of character. And someone paying $1500-$2500 for a puppy isn't going to "get bored" and all of a sudden give it away.. unless they are rolling in cash, and well.. then they can afford that. And reputable breeders WILL take their dogs back and not put them into shelters..
> 
> A Back yard breeder is another story. Someone who has a litter of puppies for no other reason than selling them to make a profit. Those are the types of breeders that "we" encourage others to stay away from. They have no intentions for their dogs other than breeding and making money, they usually have no education on dogs, and no idea where they came from, or anything with their health history. They are there to make a buck. The pump out puppies on demand because it's a business to them. They won't take dogs back, they don't care what happens to them after they are sold.
> 
> This still doesn't mean that the blame is placed on breeders, even BYB (though some will argue that). In the end the blame, because yes it can be placed, is on society and the ignorance of people owning dogs. The lack of rules and regulations taken seriously in regards to owning and raising a dog. I can repeat what I said above, but those that are to blame are the people that dump them, then turn around and get another thinking it will be different.





BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> I never said a breeder would put their dog in a shelter? They put their dogs in homes of people they trust to care for the dog for its lifetime. But even in the best case scenario where breeders try to remain in constant contact and try to search rescues to make sure none of their dogs end up there, there is still a huge chance they can not prevent every one of their dogs from ending up in shelters, run over, tortured, beaten, strays, etc... So maybe it's not the breeders fault, but like I said irresponsible pet owners, so we do agree on that. And YES people will spend thousands of dollars on a dog but for whatever reason will surrender it. It could be health related, it could be they had a baby and now don't have time, and rather than giving it back to the breeder for free they would rather recoup some of their money so they sell it. This is a more realistic view of what actually happens. To say that breeders will hunt down their dogs and will always take them back and a good breeder will make sure their dogs don't end up in shelters can not be 100% predicted. I think we can both agree on that, just as we can both agree that just because a breeder breeds dogs doesn't mean their dogs can go to perfectly lovely homes and never contribute to overpopulation in shelters.


Sorry! Health related as in the human has a health condition and can no longer care, not the dog has a health condition sorry!


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## wyoung2153

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> I never said a breeder would put their dog in a shelter? They put their dogs in homes of people they trust to care for the dog for its lifetime. But even in the best case scenario where breeders try to remain in constant contact and try to search rescues to make sure none of their dogs end up there, there is still a huge chance they can not prevent every one of their dogs from ending up in shelters, run over, tortured, beaten, strays, etc... So maybe it's not the breeders fault, but like I said irresponsible pet owners, so we do agree on that. And YES people will spend thousands of dollars on a dog but for whatever reason will surrender it. It could be health related, it could be they had a baby and now don't have time, and rather than giving it back to the breeder for free they would rather recoup some of their money so they sell it. This is a more realistic view of what actually happens. To say that breeders will hunt down their dogs and will always take them back and a good breeder will make sure their dogs don't end up in shelters can not be 100% predicted. I think we can both agree on that, just as we can both agree that just because a breeder breeds dogs doesn't mean their dogs can go to perfectly lovely homes and never contribute to overpopulation in shelters.


Nothing in life is 100% So of course things fall through the cracks. BUT it sounds to me like you are more upset with BYB.. (not literally upset). So is it to say that those that rescue dogs don't get tired of them and surrender them again or leave them out on the streets?


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## Pax8

wyoung2153 said:


> Nothing in life is 100% So of course things fall through the cracks. BUT it sounds to me like you are more upset with BYB.. (not literally upset). So is it to say that those that rescue dogs don't get tired of them and surrender them again or leave them out on the streets?


This too, good point wyoung. I worked with a city shelter for almost a year and we had maybe 20-30 people every month that would return a dog they had adopted. I guess that returned dog is now the reason a dog on the street is being run over, killed, euthanized at the shelter?


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## wyoung2153

Pax8 said:


> This too, good point wyoung. I worked with a city shelter for almost a year and we had maybe 20-30 people every month that would return a dog they had adopted. I guess that returned dog is now the reason a dog on the street is being run over, killed, euthanized at the shelter?


I almost want to say.. in my personal experience, volunteering at our shelter... more dogs are returned because the person didn't realize it needed to be trained or didn't have the education to train it the way they thought, or deal with some of the issues shelter dogs have. 

I also can second the returning the dog to the breeder because I have done it. I bought from a BB breeder and we had some issues with my girl. Luckily she was a reputable and responsible breeder.. not only was the breeder's right of first refusal directly in my contract, but we kept in contact weekly while I was having issues and after we established I couldn't continue with the care she needed, I agreed to send her back to the breeder with a puppy replacement clause.. that is still being honored today.. 

The original contract had me agree to included pictures of the dog every 3 months until it was a year then every 6 months til it was 3 years. Then after that she asked for yearly updates on them and she would periodically call or email if she was curious. She wanted health updates, Basic OB certs, etc as well. Spay/neuter was mandatory, and anything going on with the dog should be relayed to her to ensure it was not genetic. THIS is a reputable breeder. It wasn't easy to get her approval either. I had to be screened and filled out forms and interviewed by 2 people and all that. It's not as if I could go "hey can i have one.. here's $2500" That would NOT fly. 

OP Not insulting your intelligence, but please research backyard breeders.. it is vastly different then a reputable one.


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## WateryTart

I'll bite.



BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> is there ever a time when it's okay to buy from a breeder?


Yes, anytime you want to, for any reason.



BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> And if so what are the circumstances that. Led you to this?why did you feel like there was no other option?


For myself personally, I wanted the dog I wanted. My husband had his own conditions for being okay with the dog. The result was something very very specific, and going to a breeder was going to stack the deck in favor of us getting that.

Frankly, I think the argument that "every time you buy a shelter dog dies" is just silly. My home wasn't open to ANY dog. It was open to MY dog, and that's it. If I hadn't purchased her, I wouldn't have a dog at all.


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## my boy diesel

i am finding it very interesting that so many reject the entire idea of shelter or rescue dogs


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR

*Response*



wyoung2153 said:


> Nothing in life is 100% So of course things fall through the cracks. BUT it sounds to me like you are more upset with BYB.. (not literally upset). So is it to say that those that rescue dogs don't get tired of them and surrender them again or leave them out on the streets?


Your absolutely right, even people with good intentions who rescue dogs can give them up, and I think this happens even MORE often than people who buy from breeders, so yes, I think everyone on this forum can agree it really falls down to the responsibility or lack thereof a dog owner.


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## WateryTart

my boy diesel said:


> i am finding it very interesting that so many reject the entire idea of shelter or rescue dogs


I don't find it remarkable at all.

I think people are free to make the choices that best suit their households and their goals, and it's a wonderful thing that we have good options - reputable breeders and reputable rescues.


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## Andaka

If someone calls me looking for an adult dog I send them to rescue. However I feel many of the St. Louis area rescues are filled with unadoptable dogs -- severe health or temperament problems. These are the dogs that are causing good healthy dogs to die.


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## WateryTart

Andaka said:


> If someone calls me looking for an adult dog I send them to rescue. However I feel many of the St. Louis area rescues are filled with unadoptable dogs -- severe health or temperament problems. These are the dogs that are causing good healthy dogs to die.


I have a good friend who is involved in rescue who has said the same: People get very emotionally invested in saving a particular dog (even though said dog has severe behavioral issues), or dogs of breeds in high demand, while perfectly healthy and stable dogs of less desirable breed background are put down.

I agree with my friend that the logic is flawed and that it's much more practical - and safe - to decide that either a dog is safe to adopt out or it isn't, regardless of breed/mix, and then go from there in terms of the specifics of placing it.


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## gsdsar

This is hot topic, and very interesting. 

I have bought all the dogs that I have owned as an adult. I feel no guilt in doing so, and I don't like people guilting be by saying that shelter dog died because of it. 

A shelter dog died because an irresponsible person brought a dog into the world, sold it to an irresponsible person who did not care for something about it, or thought more of their needs and took it to a shelter or a rescue. 

I have never given a up a dog. Even when I spent lots of money and the dog did not work for what I wanted. I get an animal and I have it for it's entire life period. I am not to blame for dogs dying in shelters, any more than a parent is to blame for children in foster care and orphanages because they choose to get get pregnant and raise their own child. 

But just because I have chosen to buy my dogs does not mean I abandon those that need homes. I foster for my local rescue, I help the local animal control, and work with clients to fix problems before they give a dog up. My sister and my mom have only ever had rescues. In fact one was a foster GSD of mine. When they are looking for their next dog, I am sure they will go the rescue route again. And I will help them find a perfect match. 

And yes. It is possible to find a dog in the shelter that can be a working dog. I have placed one as a patrol dog personally. Search and Rescue Foundation mainly takes shelter dogs and turns them into USAR dogs. It happens. A good friend got a rehomed dog and is working her in Wilderness SAR, when her purchased puppy did not work out. It happens and I am always on the lookout through my rescue for dogs being placed in working homes. 

Funny thing being, one if the Lab Rescues I work with hates placing dogs in a working home. They don't feel like dogs should have to work, they deserve to be only pets. Go figure, even though I have seen quite a few cone through their rescue that I could easily train and place in a detection home. They won't do it. 

I buy because I wanted to. I wanted something specific. The end. I don't need to justify my reasoning. That's what I wanted to do. And it's no one place to judge that decision. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## WateryTart

I'm fine with people judging me for buying a dog. I'm used to it by now - where I am, people default to assuming you rescued and it's considered cool to have rescued your dog. I've actually had people gush over my girl and how cute and sweet she is, then ask where I rescued her from and when I say, "I didn't rescue," all of a sudden they get this look on their face like they just smelled something terrible and they turn away. (Being a perverse human being, I had to hide my amusement at this.)

What I'm not fine with is people subjecting me to their judgment. I assume people judge me every minute of every day for something I did or didn't do, and I can't be bothered with worrying about that. When they inflict their judgment on me and expect me to listen to it because they think it should matter to me, that's when I get annoyed and either mock them inside my head or think and bite back snappy retorts that would just get me in trouble if I uttered them out loud.


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## gsdheeler

Well said WateryTart, some people have the idea that if you do not have a rescue you are some kind of pond scum. What I enjoy is after they are done looking down their noses at you they comment on how pretty she is and how well behaved she is.


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## carmspack

I think I can understand where the OP is coming from having just lost an animal , her Sailor, who meant the world to her. He happened to have been adopted from a shelter situation . The combination seemed "meant to be" very beneficial to both .
I think the question is partly cathartic , wondering what to do , should she be ready to open her home - go to a breeder , or go try a shelter adoption.

You can't repeat the experience . Not fair to the new dog who needs to be accepted for his/her unique self .

Sailor was the dog that he was because something went right with his breeding , not because he came from a shelter.


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## LifeofRiley

To the OP, this quote resonates with my outlook:

_“Saving one dog may not change the world, but surely for that one dog, the world will change forever.” _

I have always chosen to adopt and I have never been disappointed. 

I also have fostered -and otherwise volunteered - for many local shelters and all-breed rescues. I know from experience that there is no shortage of highly adoptable dogs in municipal shelters/pounds, no-kill shelters and all-breed rescues in this country. 

For some reason, many on this forum like to make it seem like the majority of dogs that make it to the adoption floor of shelters/rescues (mutts and purebreds alike) are health and temperament disasters - this is not true.


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## my boy diesel

> I think people are free to make the choices that best suit their households and their goals, and it's a wonderful thing that we have good options - reputable breeders and reputable rescues.


what everyone here keeps forgetting is that you few on this forum who bothered to join a forum and learn about good breeders are few and far between
the majority of the dog owners in america are pet owners and as such do not feel compelled to buy a $1200 + dog from a reputable breeder 

but by all means encourage them to purchase from a breeder which,
translated means any ol breeder that will sell them a dog for under $600
all it means is that bybs will stay in business because rescue dogs are "so horrible' :shrug:


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## my boy diesel

> For some reason, many on this forum like to make it seem like the majority of dogs that make it to the adoption floor of shelters/rescues (mutts and purebreds alike) are health and temperamental disasters - this is not true.


thank you
i was begining to think my perception was all off :shrug:


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## lalachka

rescues aren't horrible but all they're doing is making it easy, both mentally and physically, for people to dump their dogs. I know that if there were no shelters and rescues then people would just kill or release their unwanted dogs
i don't know what the answer is but the way things are today nothing will ever change. 
more people will get on the rescue bandwagon, more dogs will be saved but nothing is done to stop people from dumping their dogs. 
I'm not thinking in terms of not letting people dump but rather not letting people get dogs that easy. maybe licensing with mandatory tests that make sure people know how to deal with and avoid behavior problems, that educate people on health issues (believe it or not the thought of health issues didn't cross my mind when I bought my dog. I just didn't think about it I thought all gsds are the same and there's no problems just training. I'm sure there are more like me), on the commitment it takes, on the fact that dogs grow out of cute puppies, thst it's hard to find a place that accepts dogs and on and on

just so people stop and think about it for a minute. maybe this won't do much but maybe it will. but letting things go on the way they are and then guilt people into rescuing more dogs isn't the way to go. 

also, now that so many people are commited to rescue this becomes a lucrative business and many scammers are hopping on. the AR people do all the work for them by getting people to want to adopt, all they need to do is buy dogs and resell.


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## my boy diesel

well if someone is gonna dump their dog they are gonna dump it with or without a rescue or shelter there

there is craigslist for starters and then those who drive their dog to the middle of the country and dump it

who is guilting whom into rescuing?? 
i dont see it 
most people rescue because they wanna save a life and they know there are awesome dogs in shelters and rescues :shrug:

and fyi my post said 'rescued dogs' (the dogs themselves) not 'rescues' (the business and people)


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## lalachka

I was taking about the slogan 'don't breed and buy when shelter dogs die'

and yes, I know, I did say thst stopping shelters and rescues and not letting people dump isn't the answer. there needs to be a way to stop letting people want to dump. or not let just anyone get animals 
continuing the cycle the way it is today isn't working

ETA but as I said, shelters make it not only convenient but also provide mental comfort. if you shoot your dog or let him loose you have an idea what happens. here you can dream that your dog gets adopted before you're out the door

I know there are many good dogs in shelters. I've seen tons of them. I would've rescued if i thought I had a chance of approval and if they budged on neutering


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## katieliz

what is really the MOST important thing is that EVERY dog, whether rescue or purchased from a breeder (or WHEREVER they have come from), have a safe and secure life, where their needs are met, and where they're loved and cared for by their guardians. the slogan about breed and buy when shelter dogs die, is marketing. pay it no mind, there will always be breeders (of all levels of ethics and integrity), and there will always be rescues. it is up to each and every one of us to take good care of our animals and speak out and stand up for those who aren't cared for properly. and educate the coming generations about responsible pet guardianship.


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR

Just for me to say once more so everyone is clear. This post was not meant to shame or force anyone into my opinions. I read some posts where people seem insulted and that they don't want anyone telling them what they can and can't do and that they are going to breed and buy from breeders and to heck with anyone else. Please people, simmer down! Hahah it's just a forum, take it easy, no one is telling you you can't buy from a breeder or is judging you or shaming you. I simply stated my own opinion, and so are others even if we don't agree. And to the person who said this forum was cathartic for me, it really wasn't my intention at all. This is apples to oranges with my dog dying. I was just trying to create a conversation. And by the way, my next dog. If I decide to get one, will not be from a breeder I can assure you , but those of you with your reasons to keep buying from breeders, you can keep on because I think we have all realized on this forum that no matter what anyone does, this problem of pet overpopulation is not going to be solved by one person buying from a breeder vs a rescue...


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## katieliz

you gotta be ready for all kinds of responses here barbie, lolol...people tend to feel passionately about their own point of view...didn't read the whole thread, i'm sure there were some panties in a twist, lolol...


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## lalachka

yep. totally agree on all this. it's about the dogs. and hopefully something changes and the dumping goes down. but all these people dumping have kids watching and thinking this is what you do. I believe that people are formed for the most part by age 5. the core personality and values. so parents need to be educated too. it's very hard to shake off childhood stuff. so these kids already subconsciously think dumping dogs is ok. hopefully some change minds later but it's not that easy 
i know this is a bad comparison but off the top of my head. a kid growing up in a kkk family will have a rough time reforming to not be a racist


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## my boy diesel

people sure can do what they want to but i am tired of seeing the myth that all rescued dogs are bonkers and sick nerve bags
that is just not the case
and not to mention there are many sick dogs from breeders and some that are nerve bags as well even reputable breeders dont hit the jack pot every time


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## katieliz

by 5 for sure, some things quite a bit before that, lala. so many people do not know or understand this. early childhood development (as well as relationship management), should be compulsory education.


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## katieliz

mbd, i have never heard that "myth". do what you can to educate that out of people who would believe that way!!


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## lalachka

oh I don't believe that. I know there are many good dogs in rescues. probably most are good. 
I think the myth comes from the fact that they are stressed from the conditions and aren't at their best behavior. and also that they weren't trained and maybe had problems created by bad handling and conditions (chained, crated 24/7) 
no one is looking their best in jail either.

ETA mbd, i thought you were replying to me. didn't see all those posts


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR

*Riightt!*



katieliz said:


> you gotta be ready for all kinds of responses here barbie, lolol...people tend to feel passionately about their own point of view...didn't read the whole thread, i'm sure there were some panties in a twist, lolol...


I know hahaha!


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## selzer

Barbie, 

There are breeders out there that source pet stores, sell puppies at inns and road sides, and over the internet. 1 person can have 600 dogs, and breed all of them, twice a year. What doesn't sell can be culled, dumped in a shelter, or marked off at the pet store. 

A LOT of the general public wants puppies. Shelters have puppies some of the time. This is true of breeders also. But, usually you can find some breeder somewhere with a litter of puppies. And so the general public can get its puppy, and usually they do not have to wait for it. They are not going to go for an adult dog from a shelter, they want a puppy. 

And if they cannot find a puppy at a local breeder, they will go to a pet store and buy a pup from there. And the fellow with the 600 dogs gets and order from that store and he breeds another bitch. 

It is all supply and demand. If the small breeders all close up shop and say they won't breed again until all the shelters are empty, the fellow with six hundred dogs will hire a few people and keep 12 hundred and produce 2 or 3 times as many puppies. 

It will not empty the shelters. It will only change the dynamics of where purebred puppies are produced. Even someone who cuts corners, but has a reasonable number of dogs and even if they are breeding for the pet market, it is better that these people are breeding dogs, better for the breeding dogs, than the dogs that are kept to the USDA standards for dogs. 

Because most of those puppy mills that are raided, actually have passed inspections. After a number of years, someone gets sick or falls on hard times, and stuff gets out of control, and they start failing their inspections. But prior to failing, those dogs have no life at all. Living in conditions approved by the USDA is the bare minimum to maintain life. And there are no standards that address treating the critter as a being with a personality, and individual needs. 

Dogs that are unsuitable for breeding or come up dry, will be culled, no point spending money feeding bitches that don't produce puppies. 

Breeders who are maintaining a number of dogs, dogs that are retired from their program, dogs that wash from breeding, dogs that are currently being bred, dogs that are up and coming and in training, who are able to care properly for them and have a reasonable number of litters per year, actually keep the large scale breeders from getting even larger. And most of them are breeding for some purpose, though some are breeding only for the pet market.

But the pet market wants puppies, and they will get puppies. And the shelter is not where the majority are going to go for a laundry list of reasons. Shelters have even imported puppies from outside the country to provide puppies to people. 

The reason for dogs in shelters is because people don't commit to training and providing for a dog's needs when they obtain one from whatever medium. A small breeder who has a limited number of litters and sells to each individual himself, may be able to make better choices where their puppies go, may keep track of them, and may take them back if the need arises. Someone with 600 bitches isn't keeping up with where the dogs go, aren't selling them with any amount of discretion, most of them he is not selling, rather some high school kid is selling the dog in a pet store in a mall. But some dogs from smaller breeders may land in shelters, because a price tag does not guaranty that pup a forever home, neither does a long complicated application, nor does any clause about rehoming and first right of refusal. 

The problem with shelters is that people get dogs that they probably shouldn't get, and fail to manage or maintain them properly, or fall into situations where they need to let them go, or they die and fail to leave some avenue for the dogs to be provided for. Some may be within the breeder's ability to help, and some may not. Breeders retire and die. 

I think rather than having a philosophy that all dogs should come from shelters. A better philosophy would be to see where your dog is coming from. How are the puppies kept, how are the breeding dogs kept. You can't do this by looking at a website. A website is what a breeder chooses to show the world. Teach people to not buy from pet stores, inns, roadsides, and auctions. 

The only way to cut down on the number of dogs kept in truly horrendous conditions is to stop buying sight unseen. When their pups will not sell, they will not breed as many litters and give up some dogs. 

And then they will figure out some other way to sell their pups to the public. 

The problem is not going to a breeder, because no one walks into these large organizations and comes away with a puppy. These litters are pretty much called for and shipped out without the public ever coming onto the property. 

Go to shelters, and go to breeders for pups, stay away from pet stores, etc, and use the internet to narrow your options and then go and visit.


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## my boy diesel

> The problem with shelters is that people get dogs that they probably shouldn't get,


lol this _never _happens when people _buy_ dogs though!


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## Magwart

my boy diesel said:


> people sure can do what they want to but i am tired of seeing the myth that all rescued dogs are bonkers and sick nerve bags
> that is just not the case
> and not to mention there are many sick dogs from breeders and some that are nerve bags as well even reputable breeders dont hit the jack pot every time


:toasting:I couldn't agree more. There are thousands of _awesome_ rescue dogs happily living good lives, in great homes, because of rescue.

I would add: I'm also tired of frequent insinuations that people involved in rescue are mean/crazy/hoarders. I'm not talking about this thread, but it's been a running theme in other threads.

OP, as a rescuer, I'm grateful when (real) breeders sell pet-quality pups with only limited registration, with contracts requiring the dog to come back to them if rehoming is needed, with training obligations, with microchips leading back to the breeder, and provide serious support...what they produce won't ever end up on a euthanasia list or as the subject an "urgent--dies tomorrow" email in my in-box. I'm glad they produce good dogs and respect the work they do to preserve (what's left of) the gene pool.

I recently had to think about this issue when our rescue was asked to sign onto a petition by an anti-breeder group a few cities over. Many reputable rescues signed it. Some of their ideas are fine -- small licensing fees, microchipping, registration with animal control, instead of a free-for-all. I researched the group who was circulating the petition and saw that they filled up their FB page with "don't buy while others die" rhetoric. I declined to sign. I'd rather work together with the local breed club on education and fundraising events -- they aren't my enemy. AGSRA (funded by breeders, through the AKC) has been good to my rescue, with a grant that helped with vet care for two sweet seniors.

We love many of the well-bred dogs who come through rescue. It's not nearly as rare as people think, either. Many of us who rescue have at least one of those too -- off the top of my head, I know of rescuers with WGSL, ASL, and even a panda. At least, that's true in areas where there are hundreds of GSDs to choose from for very small numbers of foster spots--we see many _awesome _dogs (including pedigreed dogs--we just rehomed two WGSL dogs whose pedigrees were full of "vom Kirschental").

The idea that rescues make it "safe" to dump GSDs at shelters is utterly wrong. The numbers are pretty grim--rescues can't possibly keep up:

5,000+ GSDs euthanized last year in just 30 shelters whose data were tracked. More GSDs were euthanized than adopted. The data show that GSDs are the #4 most euthanized breed in the USA right now:
Filling the Pit | ASPCA Professional
_(scroll down past the pit analysis and look at the tables)_


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## hunterisgreat

my boy diesel said:


> but how many purebreds from breeders wash out?
> i mean we could go on all day but truth is many shelters dogs do make wonderful pets and also working dogs
> my response anyway was towards people who believe you *have* to buy a dog to make it a bomb or drug dog and that is not the case


Scent detection is one thing. Bite dog is another ball game. A strong bite dog is a rare thing and the best breeders in the country criss cross the country and the world chasing the right genetics


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## WateryTart

my boy diesel said:


> what everyone here keeps forgetting is that you few on this forum who bothered to join a forum and learn about good breeders are few and far between
> the majority of the dog owners in america are pet owners and as such do not feel compelled to buy a $1200 + dog from a reputable breeder
> 
> but by all means encourage them to purchase from a breeder which,
> translated means any ol breeder that will sell them a dog for under $600
> all it means is that bybs will stay in business because rescue dogs are "so horrible' :shrug:


I don't encourage anyone to do anything beyond do their research. I assume the people in my life are not idiots and can use their God given intelligence to make discerning choices. 

So I stand by my opinion: It is a fortunate thing that we have these freedoms so that we may use our own reasoning to determine what we believe in good faith is the most moral. Aren't we lucky to live in a society in which we have that choice? I think so!


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## my boy diesel

hunterisgreat said:


> Scent detection is one thing. Bite dog is another ball game


if you read back on my responses i never mentioned bite work did i?
there are a lot more people doing scent work and tracking and drug and bomb detection and therapy and agility and service work and herding and and and
then there are doing bite work btw 
and there are plenty of dogs out there in shelters and rescues that will fit those bills just fine!


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## my boy diesel

> I would add: I'm also tired of frequent insinuations that people involved in rescue are mean/crazy/hoarders. I'm not talking about this thread, but it's been a running theme in other threads.


oh thank you for mentioning that
i am disturbed too at all those comments about crazies and what not in rescue
simply more myths to try to dispel!! 

yes i am sure there are some but then again theres tons of breeders with the same issues!!! rescue does not hold the market on nut jobs and hoarders!!


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## LifeofRiley

Magwart said:


> :toasting:* I couldn't agree more. There are thousands of awesome rescue dogs happily living good lives, in great homes, because of rescue.[*]
> 
> *I would add: I'm also tired of frequent insinuations that people involved in rescue are mean/crazy/hoarders. I'm not talking about this thread, but it's been a running theme in other threads.*
> 
> OP, as a rescuer, I'm grateful when (real) breeders sell pet-quality pups with only limited registration, with contracts requiring the dog to come back to them if rehoming is needed, with training obligations, with microchips leading back to the breeder, and provide serious support...what they produce won't ever end up on a euthanasia list or as the subject an "urgent--dies tomorrow" email in my in-box. I'm glad they produce good dogs and respect the work they do to preserve (what's left of) the gene pool.
> 
> 
> *We love many of the well-bred dogs who come through rescue. It's not nearly as rare as people think, either. *Many of us who rescue have at least one of those too -- off the top of my head, I know of rescuers with WGSL, ASL, and even a panda. At least, that's true in areas where there are hundreds of GSDs to choose from for very small numbers of foster spots--we see many _awesome _dogs (including pedigreed dogs--we just rehomed two WGSL dogs whose pedigrees were full of "vom Kirschental").
> 
> *The idea that rescues make it "safe" to dump GSDs at shelters is utterly wrong. The numbers are pretty grim--rescues can't possibly keep up*:
> 
> 5,000+ GSDs euthanized last year in just 30 shelters whose data were tracked. *More GSDs were euthanized than adopted. The data show that GSDs are the #4 most euthanized breed in the USA right now*:
> Filling the Pit | ASPCA Professional
> _(scroll down past the pit analysis and look at the tables)_


Magwart, great post! The bolded and underlined parts are those that particularly resonated with my experience.


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## Sagan

Galathiel said:


> If I opt not to get a dog at all, does that mean a shelter dog dies as well? That's why that phrase is a little skewed. Getting a dog from a breeder,doesn't mean that the spot in my home now can't be filled by a shelter dog. That spot was never going to be available for a shelter dog. *shrug* Sorry, but that's the truth. I'm not bothered by other people's perceptions and ideologies. I have to make the best decision for me and my household.


I completely agree. If I'm going to make a 10+ year commitment I'm going to try and stack the odds in my favor as best I can. I never entertained a shelter dog and likely never will. I'm okay with that.


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## selzer

selzer said:


> ...
> 
> *The reason for dogs in shelters is because people don't commit to training and providing for a dog's needs when they obtain one from whatever medium.* A small breeder who has a limited number of litters and sells to each individual himself, may be able to make better choices where their puppies go, may keep track of them, and may take them back if the need arises. Someone with 600 bitches isn't keeping up with where the dogs go, aren't selling them with any amount of discretion, most of them he is not selling, rather some high school kid is selling the dog in a pet store in a mall. *But some dogs from smaller breeders may land in shelters, because a price tag does not guaranty that pup a forever home, neither does a long complicated application, nor does any clause about rehoming and first right of refusal. *
> 
> *The problem with shelters is that people get dogs that they probably shouldn't get, and fail to manage or maintain them properly, or fall into situations where they need to let them go, or they die and fail to leave some avenue for the dogs to be provided for. Some may be within the breeder's ability to help, and some may not. Breeders retire and die.
> *
> ...





my boy diesel said:


> lol this _never _happens when people _buy_ dogs though!



I think I was clear. I am sorry that you did not understand my post. So I cut out some so it will be a little more clear.


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## WateryTart

Sagan said:


> I completely agree. If I'm going to make a 10+ year commitment I'm going to try and stack the odds in my favor as best I can. I never entertained a shelter dog and likely never will. I'm okay with that.


Yup, this was us too. My husband and I sat down and laid out what we each needed to know to be okay with taking the risk, and it came down to a young puppy with known bloodlines, with the opportunity to meet and spend time with dogs related to our future pup, purposefully bred for health and temperament - that meant searching out a careful, intelligent, ethical breeder was our first and only stop, and we never even considered rescue. And I don't see us doing so in the future either. I'm also okay with this.


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## llombardo

LifeofRiley said:


> To the OP, this quote resonates with my outlook:
> 
> _“Saving one dog may not change the world, but surely for that one dog, the world will change forever.” _
> 
> I have always chosen to adopt and I have never been disappointed.
> 
> 
> 
> For some reason, many on this forum like to make it seem like the majority of dogs that make it to the adoption floor of shelters/rescues (mutts and purebreds alike) are health and temperament disasters - this is not true.


Agreed 100%. If in my lifetime my family or I've owned 50 dogs, 49 of them were rescues of some sort. Never had an issue with any of them. You really do get what you put into them.


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## Nigel

WateryTart said:


> I don't find it remarkable at all.
> 
> I think people are free to make the choices that best suit their households and their goals, and it's a wonderful thing that we have good options - reputable breeders and reputable rescues.


Agreed, get the dog you want. I have nothing against rescue/shelter dogs, I know when we looked into rescuing very few dogs were listed as good with children, the vast majority specifically stated "not good with children under 12" I don't know if this is some kind of CYA blanket statement rescues use to protect themselves? Either way I wasn't taking a chance.


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## carmspack

OP said "it's just a forum, take it easy, no one is telling you you can't buy from a breeder or is judging you or shaming you. I simply stated my own opinion, and so are others even if we don't agree. And to the person who said this forum was cathartic for me, it really wasn't my intention at all. This is apples to oranges with my dog dying. I was just trying to create a conversation. And by the way, my next dog. If I decide to get one, will not be from a breeder I can assure you "

well that would have been my post .

so this thread is about breeder hostility? 

The title to breed or not to breed, that is the question....
would lead one to think that someone was wondering if they should be breeding their dog .


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## Blanketback

I'm looking at breeding in the same light as any other industry. Because it is an industry, and the shelters are an off-shoot of that industry. It's no different than anything else: you'll get what you support. So if everything you buy is made overseas, then you're slowly killing off our manufacturing industry. If you support the horrible puppy mills, then they'll keep pumping out puppies. If you get a pet without making any kind of commitment, and dump it, then you're keeping the shelters busy and they continue. I don't see the connection of: a breeder puppy means a shelter dog dies, because those 2 things are distinctly different. A person will 'shop' for what they want, and what they're looking for will determine where they look.


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## LARHAGE

There are people like me that like specific breeds for specific reasons, this applies to my selection and purchase of horses as well. I want the breed I select to have the qualities that are the reason I selected it in the first place, if people are guilted into only rescuing from shelters than the breeds themselves will suffer severely, the dogs representing the breed will be randomly bred dogs that come from God awful back yard breeders who think AKC papers are a badge of honor and the only criteria needed to breed, I want both my dogs and horses to express the qualities that several generations of quality individuals produce. I have had and still have rescues of breeds from shelters, but they are not the epitome of the breed and should not be viewed as such, or the only way to obtain a breed, I need my purebred dogs AND horses, to be what they were selectively bred to me, that's just my opinion.


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## my boy diesel

i dont even mind that people prefer a breeder dog but when they sit and run down rescued and shelter dogs without even having adopted or owned one it makes their argument pretty invalid :shrug:



> the dogs representing the breed will be randomly bred dogs that come from God awful back yard breeders who think AKC papers are a badge of honor and the only criteria needed to breed,


proves my point perfectly


----------



## lesslis

Posted something similar a while back but if I were to adopt a GSD from a reputable rescue I would ask my reputable breeder to assist. Is it rude or a inconvenience, possibly and probably, but think most with a passion for this breed just want the right dog with the right owners. Be it their dogs or a rescue. I don't think a reputable breeder is clamoring for my $. They have plenty of buyers and waiting lists. Besides, who better to see a nice dog then a great breeder!


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## Blitzkrieg1

There is no real question or conversation to be had. 
Go to the shelter, obtain a mutt or "pure"bred GSD of likely byb origins and be happy. The ByB still sells his junk, the shelter still gets that junk second hand or the progeny of that junk. Then they can post a sad story on their adoption page blaming environmental experience for genetic weakness. "He is afraid of men because he was probably beaten by a man.." if I had a dime for everytime I heard that line.

Most importantly the breeders producing quality sell out usually before the litter hits the ground because there are still people out there that care about quality.


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## Blanketback

My 2 GSDs that I adopted as adults came from private individuals that needed to rehome their dogs. I think in the future I'll continue with this practice, since many people are thrown into this scenario for various reasons, and it's always very sad for them. I don't believe that GSDs are good candidates for the shelter environment, and that it's too easy for them to fail the adoptability tests, even though they're great dogs in their own right. I think people should be more concerned about their own actions than what other people are doing. Unless it's a huge issue, like running a crack house next door...


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## WateryTart

my boy diesel said:


> i dont even mind that people prefer a breeder dog but when they sit and run down rescued and shelter dogs without even having adopted or owned one it makes their argument pretty invalid :shrug:
> 
> 
> proves my point perfectly


I understand what you're saying - don't paint with a broad brush and don't knock it 'til you've tried it - but it does seem logical to infer that when careful producers stop producing, the haphazard producers fill the market. I don't know whose post that was, because you didn't leave the tags there, but I think that was the point that poster was making if I recall correctly from upthread.

I'm not running down rescued or sheltered dogs - they're no less deserving than any other dog. That post just doesn't seem too far off the mark to me when I think through what the likely unintended consequences would be.


----------



## my boy diesel

the other point i have tried to make is 
how many of you bought a dog then it had megaesophagus? hip dysplasia? elbow dysplasia?
allergies? pancreatic insufficiency? other digestive woes?

plenty of you have! i read about it all on the health section here

how many others purchased a dog from a good breeder then the dog had behavioral issues? again all this can be found on the temperament forum section

so when people say 'i'm gonna buy a dog because i wanna stack the odds in my favor' but they have never even been to a shelter to view a dog or visited a rescue to see their dogs it seems like people are just missing a huge piece here in their arguments
you could have gotten the same dog from a rescue or shelter

and in fact if the dog is juvenile or young adult or adult you can actually see what you are getting
with a puppy you cannot and its even more of a crap shoot

in reality you cannot guarantee you wont have hip or elbow or stomach or even temperament issues just by visiting a breeder 
now if that breeder had other dogs from the same parents that have grown up and been fine and you could view that and judge from that it might be different


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## WateryTart

my boy diesel said:


> the other point i have tried to make is
> how many of you bought a dog then it had megaesophagus? hip dysplasia? elbow dysplasia?
> allergies? pancreatic insufficiency? other digestive woes?
> 
> plenty of you have! i read about it all on the health section here
> 
> how many others purchased a dog from a good breeder then the dog had behavioral issues? again all this can be found on the temperament forum section
> 
> so when people say 'i'm gonna buy a dog because i wanna stack the odds in my favor' but they have never even been to a shelter to view a dog or visited a rescue to see their dogs it seems like people are just missing a huge piece here in their arguments
> you could have gotten the same dog from a rescue or shelter
> 
> and in fact if the dog is juvenile or young adult or adult you can actually see what you are getting
> with a puppy you cannot and its even more of a crap shoot
> 
> in reality you cannot guarantee you wont have hip or elbow or stomach or even temperament issues just by visiting a breeder
> now if that breeder had other dogs from the same parents that have grown up and been fine and you could view that and judge from that it might be different


Okay...but if you understand basic probability and sampling (actually, even if you don't), you can start to see how you can use knowns vs unknowns to stack the deck. What can be known and what can't be depends on situation and on what matters to you - what cards you personally wish to have in your hand.

NOTHING is a guarantee, and you won't find anyone debating that point. You can have a great dog or a nightmare from any kind of source. 

So I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here? Nobody is trying to say that a shelter dog is guaranteed to have problems and a breeder dog is guaranteed not to. People just look at the risks they're okay with versus the ones they're not, and they pick their poison. That's it.


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## Magwart

my boy diesel said:


> and in fact if the dog is juvenile or young adult or adult you can actually see what you are getting with a puppy you cannot and its even more of a crap shoot


This is a point I wish could be better shared with people who "just" want a "good pet dog"--not a performance dog or a competition dog, just a wonderful companion. Rescue can serve those people--the _vast_ majority of adopters--very well!

A fostered adolescent or adult dog has been tested and assessed for several weeks--sometimes several months--to see who it really is. Dogs have had time to relax from the shelter, decompress, and show their character: energy level, sociability, and prey drive are on full display in the foster home. We learn whether they have pig-headed tendancies requiring a strong handler, tend to bully other dogs, or if they require an adult-only home.

Often, the dog will have lived with kids, experienced social situations out in the community, and had the foster family start the foundation of basic OB. When people write to ask if we have dogs good with kids...I know which ones are thriving in foster homes with kids.

When we say "he's good with kids," we don't mean_ other dogs he's related to_ are good with kids. We mean the foster family is comfortable letting their own kids play with him on a daily basis....and he adores those kids. When we say "he likes cats," it's probably because he's been licking and snuggling with the foster family cat for a month like it's his best friend. 

For a pet home that "just" wants a good pet dog, I don't know how you could better stack the deck than getting a young adult that's been fostered and thrived with the kinds of stimuli you'll have in your own home.


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## lalachka

any idea why a rescue won't accept vasectomy over neutering? it doesn't really matter now because I probably will buy my next dog but I don't understand the logic behind it.


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## Sagan

my boy diesel said:


> now if that breeder had other dogs from the same parents that have grown up and been fine and you could view that and judge from that it might be different


This is what makes a reputable breeder. Time and energy goes into titling and health checks. Furthermore they will reach out to their customers in the future to get feedback on how the dog is maturing to compare with the parents and expectations. 

For me going to a breeder was important because how big of a decision getting a dog is. It's a commitment I don't take lightly. I am always very deliberate with my decisions and I am unwilling to burden myself with someone else's mistakes.


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## Magwart

lalachka said:


> any idea why a rescue won't accept vasectomy over neutering?


Possibly state law. Every dog we adopt here has to be "spayed or neutered"--that's the statute's language. It's likely as simple as that.


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## lalachka

Magwart said:


> Possibly state law. Every dog we adopt here has to be "spayed or neutered"--that's the statute's language. It's likely as simple as that.


Lol I'd never thought of that. ok makes sense


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## middleofnowhere

A vasectomy will not remove the urge to mate with a female in heat - just eliminate the sperm ejection. The dog may still roam in search of a female.


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## lalachka

middleofnowhere said:


> A vasectomy will not remove the urge to mate with a female in heat - just eliminate the sperm ejection. The dog may still roam in search of a female.


isn't that my problem though? I thought the goal is to make sure there's no more unwanted pups and vasectomy accomplishes that. I understand thst all the behavioral issues remain and I'm ok with dealing with them that's why I'm so intent on keeping my dogs unaltered.


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## WateryTart

Magwart said:


> This is a point I wish could be better shared with people who "just" want a "good pet dog"--not a performance dog or a competition dog, just a wonderful companion. Rescue can serve those people--the _vast_ majority of adopters--very well!
> 
> A fostered adolescent or adult dog has been tested and assessed for several weeks--sometimes several months--to see who it really is. Dogs have had time to relax from the shelter, decompress, and show their character: energy level, sociability, and prey drive are on full display in the foster home. We learn whether they have pig-headed tendancies requiring a strong handler, tend to bully other dogs, or if they require an adult-only home.
> 
> Often, the dog will have lived with kids, experienced social situations out in the community, and had the foster family start the foundation of basic OB. When people write to ask if we have dogs good with kids...I know which ones are thriving in foster homes with kids.
> 
> When we say "he's good with kids," we don't mean_ other dogs he's related to_ are good with kids. We mean the foster family is comfortable letting their own kids play with him on a daily basis....and he adores those kids. When we say "he likes cats," it's probably because he's been licking and snuggling with the foster family cat for a month like it's his best friend.
> 
> For a pet home that "just" wants a good pet dog, I don't know how you could better stack the deck than getting a young adult that's been fostered and thrived with the kinds of stimuli you'll have in your own home.


I actuallly think people know that, at least in my experience. In my offline circle, this is pretty common knowledge (even with people like myself and my husband who chose not to consider rescue). If someone doesn't choose rescue, I have to conclude that they weighed the risks differently from someone who did choose it. Because everything we do in this life is a risk and that's just a fact, we have to each pick what's important to us.

That's really what I've been trying to say, in a roundabout way: That people prioritize what's important to them, gather the information they can, and make the decision that _in their minds for their situations_ mitigates the risks.


----------



## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

I dont think there is an definitive answer to this question. I have had three rescues and one BYB whose grandmother was sold w/ the agreement that she not be bred but she was. I love my four shepherd ,god knows some may not consider them real GSDs but Ive seen enough commonality in them to say they have many breed characteristics. However I want a GSD w/ some genetic obedience who could do therapy work or perhaps be a service dog for me. I want to meet their parents hear from other folks who have dogs from that line.Ill be honest Im not a great trainer,I need to work on that but Id like some tangible evidence of what the dogs genetic or hereditary(MSP) make up looks like. Can I get a great dog from rescue who meets these qualifications ?" Yes I can and hopefully I will again have a rescue whether its a GSD,Lab or a Corgi. I have a picture of what I want in my next dog where that dog comes from that picture isnt filled in yet.Neither source is wrong its a personal choice.


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## carmspack

Is it a hypocrisy to go in to a shelter to "safe a life" "rescue" which is a loaded word , and insist on it being a GSD or appearing to resemble one as much as possible.

If you want a great pet/companion why not choose the first best suited dog .

Chances are the GSD at the shelter quote 
"I have had and still have rescues of breeds from shelters, but they are not the epitome of the breed and should not be viewed as such"

They are good and deserving souls for sure .

Over the years on this forum many newbies have come on to crow about the "gsd" that they just got from a shelter .
There is an excitement , like beating the system , and getting a $$$$ dog for $$. Don't need to go to a breeder .

And then they ask if it is a purebred or how much of a gsd is it? Maybe some friend questioned the looks or size or coat or color.

When gently told by the forum ,that the pup may be a mix , or cross bred , you can almost feel the deflation, the air going out of the tire.

Either you like the dog , for what it is , or you do not, and if you do not then don't make a pact to adopt the dog .


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR

*To buy from breeders or not to buy*

I think I mistakenly titled this post as one person mentioned. The true title of this thread should have been to buy from breeders or not to buy. Thanks


----------



## lauren43

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> "He is afraid of men because he was probably beaten by a man.." if I had a dime for everytime I heard that line.



I cringe when I hear that line. Not every dog that cowers has been beaten! I think some ppl just love to feel bad for their dogs and even the speculation is fun.

But guess what? The reasons why your dog cowers are so insignificant at this point. You have the dog now, so just work on making it feel comfortable in it's own skin and environment!



Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## carmspack

some dogs just have a bad set of nerves . 
Recognizing the problem goes toward being able to solve the problem.
To pity-party , "he's been abused" , does nothing , except maybe prolonging the problem , or making the person feel nobler for coming to the aide , while enabling the dog to remain stuck in this state.


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## WateryTart

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> I think I mistakenly titled this post as one person mentioned. The true title of this thread should have been to buy from breeders or not to buy. Thanks


So for fun - because I think this would be fun - I have a question.

Let's take it as a premise that if Anthony Jones gets a dog, he will buy the dog. Either he buys the dog from a breeder, or he will not get a dog at all.

Is Anthony Jones still killing a shelter dog with his choice? Should he not have any dog at all because he is not willing to rescue one?


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## WateryTart

lauren43 said:


> I cringe when I hear that line. Not every dog that cowers has been beaten! I think some ppl just love to feel bad for their dogs and even the speculation is fun.


What I've seen is this bizarre oneupmanship game where people gain status based on whose dog came from the worst situation before they were rescued. It's really strange to me.


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## lalachka

WateryTart said:


> What I've seen is this bizarre oneupmanship game where people gain status based on whose dog came from the worst situation before they were rescued. It's really strange to me.


Lol yeah that's true. But not strange. Rescue movement uses that to get people to buy from them. You get to feel like a hero. 

I don't like the word rescue either. You didn't rescue. You bought a dog from a shelter. Maybe getting an animal off the street can be called a rescue. And only some cases. I'd say my cat was probably rescued. She was 8 weeks old with a broken back and couldn't walk. Though it healed after a few weeks so maybe she would survive either way. 
Also, I didn't rescue her (if it's a rescue), my sis did. I just ended up keeping her.

ETA If you got an animal from death list in the shelter then that's a rescue too


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## carmspack

Exactly , that is why I said "rescue" is a loaded word, emotionally loaded to make you feel nobler, superior .

It makes the dog somehow indepted .

Adoption , as wording though , puts the responsibility , with no expectations , on the person who has taken the dog in , to guide it through life .

And yes the worse the real or created back story the easier the manipulation .

Dogs with a miserable background should be given the best opportunity to become as normal as they can be , not coddled and kept in that state. No one else needs to know so that any other person the dog meets greets and deals with the dog honestly, "in the moment" of its being , not with extraneous emotions which charge the dog .
Normal creates normal.
No more wet puppies or kitty cats with background lyrics from In the Arms of an Angel , as much as I love the song , as much as I love Sarah McLachlan as an artist .


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## LARHAGE

my boy diesel said:


> i dont even mind that people prefer a breeder dog but when they sit and run down rescued and shelter dogs without even having adopted or owned one it makes their argument pretty invalid :shrug:
> 
> 
> proves my point perfectly


 
I not only have owned and own 2 right now, but there is hardly a person at my place of employment that has not received either a rescue dog or cat from me, I love all dogs, but the reality is the majority of dogs in shelters are from irresponsible people who purchased their dogs from pet shops, Walmart parking lots, Craigslist and such, that doesn't make them bad dogs, but neither are they the best of the breed, it's not their fault, but they have not been bred to be either, this is not a putdown, one of my very favorite dogs I currently own is a dog rescued from death row, she's not the epitome of a Cairn Terrier, but she's priceless to me and a **** of a rat killer.


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## Merciel

Magwart said:


> This is a point I wish could be better shared with people who "just" want a "good pet dog"--not a performance dog or a competition dog, just a wonderful companion. Rescue can serve those people--the _vast_ majority of adopters--very well!
> 
> A fostered adolescent or adult dog has been tested and assessed for several weeks--sometimes several months--to see who it really is. Dogs have had time to relax from the shelter, decompress, and show their character: energy level, sociability, and prey drive are on full display in the foster home. We learn whether they have pig-headed tendancies requiring a strong handler, tend to bully other dogs, or if they require an adult-only home.
> 
> [...]
> 
> For a pet home that "just" wants a good pet dog, I don't know how you could better stack the deck than getting a young adult that's been fostered and thrived with the kinds of stimuli you'll have in your own home.


I snipped a little of it, but I wanted to quote this to say that you actually _can_ find really good sport prospects in the shelter/rescue system, depending on your sport, IF you have good contacts and know how to accurately evaluate dogs.

If you want to do bite sports then this is not so true, and I'm of the opinion that you should probably go to the very best breeder you can find (as I'll be doing with my next dog, for exactly that reason). But if you want to do obedience, agility, Rally, nosework, flyball, or pretty much any _other_ sport, it's not impossibly hard to find a good prospect through rescue. I've had a few foster dogs that I think would have excelled. Not the majority, but certainly a decently sized minority of them could have been stars in those sports.

As I spend more time in the sport scene and get a better sense of how it all works, I've come to the opinion that a novice handler is probably not going to be handicapped by working with a sound, stable, biddable pound mutt as a first sport dog. That dog will be capable of excelling up to your ability and more. World level? Probably not. But capable of helping you learn the skills to hit that level with your next dog, or the one after? Maybe.

So I wouldn't even rule out shelter and rescue dogs for people who do want performance prospects, depending on their experience, choice of sports, and intended level of competition. They can do just fine, if you get the right one.


----------



## Merciel

carmspack said:


> Is it a hypocrisy to go in to a shelter to "safe a life" "rescue" which is a loaded word , and insist on it being a GSD or appearing to resemble one as much as possible.
> 
> If you want a great pet/companion why not choose the first best suited dog .
> 
> Chances are the GSD at the shelter quote
> "I have had and still have rescues of breeds from shelters, but they are not the epitome of the breed and should not be viewed as such"
> 
> They are good and deserving souls for sure .
> 
> Over the years on this forum many newbies have come on to crow about the "gsd" that they just got from a shelter .
> There is an excitement , like beating the system , and getting a $$$$ dog for $$. Don't need to go to a breeder .
> 
> And then they ask if it is a purebred or how much of a gsd is it? Maybe some friend questioned the looks or size or coat or color.
> 
> When gently told by the forum ,that the pup may be a mix , or cross bred , you can almost feel the deflation, the air going out of the tire.
> 
> Either you like the dog , for what it is , or you do not, and if you do not then don't make a pact to adopt the dog .


Also this is a really good post and I agree completely.


----------



## my boy diesel

> For a pet home that "just" wants a good pet dog, I don't know how you could better stack the deck than getting a young adult that's been fostered and thrived with the kinds of stimuli you'll have in your own home.


exactly this


----------



## dogfaeries

I want to show dogs, so obviously getting a dog from a shelter won't work for me. For the last 35 years, I've bought dogs (Sheltie, Doberman, Yorkie, Italian Greyhound, GSD) from people who show dogs. It's what I prefer. 

That said, I have had 3 Italian Greyhounds that were not purchased from a breeder. One was a puppy mill rescue, adopted from the Italian Greyhound Club of America Rescue. The other two were handed over to me by a local puppy miller. One was 2 years old, and one was 7 years old.

I was a foster home for a 14 year old Doberman that was on her way to a shelter, when her family went through a divorce. Well, I started out as a foster home for her. One look at the sweet old girl, and she was mine. 

I took a lot of flak from people when I bought my Siamese cat from a breeder that shows her cats. Yes, I know there are a zillion cats that need homes. That's not what I want. I wanted a modern show Siamese, and that's what I got. 

I think rescued/rehomed/adopted dogs are great, _if that is what you are wanting to get._ I've had them. Actually, I still have one of the IGs, and she's a GREAT dog. BUT, guilting people when they want to buy a well bred dog, instead of getting a shelter dog, just ticks me off. I do tell people to look into rescue, if they ask me about getting a dog, but ultimately it's their dog. Their choice.


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## Jmoore728

Everything I went through with my female GSD that we had to put down at 4.5 years old, I prefer a reputable breeder. I learned the hard way. Very expensive lesson learned. Health is a major concern for me along with temperament. Plus, I wouldn't know where to start on finding a rescue. I also have young children, makes it even more tough from what I've heard.


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## my boy diesel

jmoore did you rescue or purchase your female?

as for young kids rescuing makes more sense actually since you can tell what kind of dog it is and not have to wait for a puppy to grow up to figure out what it is

a young adult or adult that has lived with children would be my preference since a puppy is a biting machine until at _least_ 6 mos. and your kids will be the bitees

people somehow think getting a puppy is 'safer' but the reverse is true - for young kids a stable adult would be a better choice

as for finding that young adult or adult that is good with kids you just ask the rescue
usually they have one in foster with kids or a back history on the dogs that come there


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## selzer

my boy diesel said:


> jmoore did you rescue or purchase your female?
> 
> as for young kids rescuing makes more sense actually since you can tell what kind of dog it is and not have to wait for a puppy to grow up to figure out what it is
> 
> a young adult or adult that has lived with children would be my preference since a puppy is a biting machine until at _least_ 6 mos. and your kids will be the bitees
> 
> people somehow think getting a puppy is 'safer' but the reverse is true - for young kids a stable adult would be a better choice
> 
> as for finding that young adult or adult that is good with kids you just ask the rescue
> usually they have one in foster with kids or a back history on the dogs that come there


Maybe some of this has to do with location, but I find this not to be the case at all. 

Many shelters and rescues will not home any GSD in a home with small children. 

Furthermore, you have to ask questions, like "How long has the dog been fostered." Because dogs do not necessarily show their true colors until they get settled. This means once the dog has been in the foster home for a month or several months, they become settled enough to display some behaviors that they have acquired. If the dog was rescued 3 weeks ago and had not chewed up a visiting niece on the third or fourth day, it could be deemed good with kids. Which might or might not be true. 

If you have small kids, getting a puppy does actually make sense. 

They are NOT all biting machines until they are 6 months old. I have 3 four month old puppies right now and they are NOT biting machines and are even more careful with my nieces. The nieces have more trouble with their toenails than there teeth. It depends on the puppy. And you can quickly teach a puppy not to bite. 

For someone with small children, I would suggest a puppy over an adult dog. Mostly because people are simply not honest. They want rid of the dog. They will say whatever they think to make you take it. Raised with kids -- yeah great selling gimmick. The thing is, even if that is true, how do you know it wasn't dumped because it had a problem with the kid, and who knows what the kid or kids might have done to the dog while they were raising it. 

If I had kids, I would want to be in charge of the interaction my dog had with kids from the beginning. I am not saying there aren't great rescues with good fostering programs out there. But I wouldn't risk a small child on my ability to find one.


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## my boy diesel

not every rescue out there are liars
wow
this is what we keep saying because of the myths perpetuated here and your post is a good example of those myths



> Mostly because people are simply not honest.


so what people are you referring to?


----------



## Moriah

selzer said:


> Maybe some of this has to do with location, but I find this not to be the case at all.
> 
> If you have small kids, getting a puppy does actually make sense.
> 
> If I had kids, I would want to be in charge of the interaction my dog had with kids from the beginning. I am not saying there aren't great rescues with good fostering programs out there. But I wouldn't risk a small child on my ability to find one.


Totally agree. I did not have rescues until my children were grown. Neighborhood kids, chance of a child letting a dog out loose, etc. I needed to know the dog really well and have raised and socialized the puppy myself. I did return a GSD to the breeder when my kids were younger because of temperament problems. By 5 months old, I told the breeder I could not take a chance on a fear biter and kids. It was a crises waiting to happen.

The breeder placed the dog somewhere else where it caused havoc within a week. Breeder took the dog back and said she would keep the dog herself.


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## my boy diesel

yikes moriah
see in your case an adult that had lived with kids successfully before being given up for other reasons would have been a better choice


----------



## Moriah

my boy diesel said:


> yikes moriah
> see in your case an adult that had lived with kids successfully before being given up for other reasons would have been a better choice


Went with 7 month old Old English Sheepdog from very good breeder. Awesome dog. Patient, kind, reliable. If kids left gate open, he stayed on the front porch.

Thirty years ago, there were no 'rescues.' You went to the pound and took your chances. Rescues are a more recent invention.

Taught me to be more diligent about bloodlines when getting a GSD. The dog I have now is my second GSD. I waited a loooong time. This guy is my 'heart dog."


----------



## SDG

In 38 years of marriage, we have always had dogs that we purchased from breeders where we could see the parents. This is because we had children and wanted to stack the deck in favor of a good temperament around them.

Our latest GSD, a 15 month old female, comes from decades/generations of working titled (IPO) GSD's. Her ability to read our minds and assess what is going on around her, yet be calm about most of it, is just stunning. Not saying you cannot get a dog like this from a rescue, but I think it's a bit less likely.

And yes, of course, we feel compassion for the homeless animals, but if you are raising children/grandchildren, their safety has to be a priority. There are never any guarantees, but you do what you can to try to create the best environment for the children and the animals, and for me, this included getting dogs whose parentage was known.

I never felt qualified to judge a rescue/shelter dog's temperament vis a vis being around my children....so I chose to leave that to the professionals who know how to assess temperament.


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## Nigel

my boy diesel said:


> jmoore did you rescue or purchase your female?
> 
> as for young kids rescuing makes more sense actually since you can tell what kind of dog it is and not have to wait for a puppy to grow up to figure out what it is
> 
> a young adult or adult that has lived with children would be my preference since a puppy is a biting machine until at _least_ 6 mos. and your kids will be the bitees
> 
> people somehow think getting a puppy is 'safer' but the reverse is true - for young kids a stable adult would be a better choice
> 
> as for finding that young adult or adult that is good with kids you just ask the rescue
> usually they have one in foster with kids or a back history on the dogs that come there


The rescues we looked into dont seem to share your view point on rescue dogs & kids. This is the disclaimer from one of the rescues we looked at, they do not adopt out to families with children under 8. There are others with a similar disclaimer, some used a cut off of children under 12 years old. Surely some of the dogs came from homes w/children, at least you would think. 

Disclaimer

Our volunteer staff does its utmost to evaluate the dogs in Rescue. We utilize information from prior owners who have surrendered their pets, notes from shelter staff who evaluate the dogs that are in shelters prior to entering Rescue, and observations from foster families once the dogs are in Rescue.Our intent is to make the best placement for the dogs based on our observations, and to disclose to adopters as much information as possible. However, adopters must realize that the dogs’ behavior can (and often will) change based on their environment and household dynamics. Our desire is for a successful, long-term placement, and we will do our very best to walk adopters through any behavior issues that may arise. *The rescue does not adopt any of our dogs into homes with children under the age of 8 years old*.Changing families, households, and canine and/or feline companions can cause stress during the first several days/weeks in a new family. In the event an issue develops, please email*[email protected]*for guidance and suggestions to ease the transition. Our goal is for a successful adoption and we will do our very best to make that happen.


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## my boy diesel

nigel i doubt it is there to be mean but rather for safety but if they had a dog who lived with kids i bet they make an exception :shrug:


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## Nigel

my boy diesel said:


> nigel i doubt it is there to be mean but rather for safety but if they had a dog who lived with kids i bet they make an exception :shrug:


Not mean, I believe its a liability issue, too many unknowns with both dog and kids, i get that. We invole our kids in training, nothing extensive, but they do need to be able to have some understanding and at times control with our dogs. We bought two 2 gsds and have 2 that were rehomed to us. Next time around our kids will be older, we may look at rescue again.


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## my boy diesel

well that video a week or two ago with the baby taking the food bowl from the gsd is enough to convince me that people are idiots who shouldnt have large powerful dogs around their kids 
present company excluded!!


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## selzer

my boy diesel said:


> not every rescue out there are liars
> wow
> this is what we keep saying because of the myths perpetuated here and your post is a good example of those myths
> 
> 
> so what people are you referring to?


Actually, I said people are dishonest. 

People are breeders, rescuers, shelter workers, people wanting to purchase a particular dog, people desperate to find a home for a particular dog, people dropping their dog at a shelter or rescue, and so forth. 

Yes, some people realize that being honest about the dog and maybe losing a home for the dog is much better than putting the dog in a bad situation, but that's not everyone. People wanting dogs want them so bad that they are willing to overlook most of the cautions that the other guy is throwing up, and people who want to get a dog rehomed are often willing to overlook some of the signs a do might be showing to suggest that they are really uncomfortable in some situations. 

Not all people are dishonest, but frankly, I believe that it makes more sense to go with a puppy if you have small children than to go the rescue route. With a puppy, if you do get one with the wrong temperament for your situation, you have a chance to rehome the pup before it ends badly. With an adult dog how you find out that the dog is not suited for your family might just be serious, and some things you can't take back.


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## LoveEcho

selzer said:


> Actually, I said people are dishonest.
> 
> People are breeders, rescuers, shelter workers, people wanting to purchase a particular dog, people desperate to find a home for a particular dog, people dropping their dog at a shelter or rescue, and so forth.
> 
> Yes, some people realize that being honest about the dog and maybe losing a home for the dog is much better than putting the dog in a bad situation, but that's not everyone. People wanting dogs want them so bad that they are willing to overlook most of the cautions that the other guy is throwing up, and people who want to get a dog rehomed are often willing to overlook some of the signs a do might be showing to suggest that they are really uncomfortable in some situations.
> 
> Not all people are dishonest, but frankly, I believe that it makes more sense to go with a puppy if you have small children than to go the rescue route. With a puppy, if you do get one with the wrong temperament for your situation, you have a chance to rehome the pup before it ends badly. With an adult dog how you find out that the dog is not suited for your family might just be serious, and some things you can't take back.



Well said. PEOPLE are dishonest. There are dishonest breeders (we all know that), and there are also dishonest rescues (not many people know that). I had a rescue briefly that bit me severely... turns out the dog had a bite history, had never been fostered with children or other dogs, etc... they lied about everything. Turns out this was not the first dog they had lied about. I think the POINT is that people should be equally as diligent about researching rescue organizations as they are (or should be) about breeders.


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## Lilie

I won't be made to feel guilty about choices I make when it comes to my animals. I don't just wake up in the morning and think, "Gee, I certainly don't have enough to do to keep me busy. Think I'll run out and find another mouth to feed and something else that will consume any loose change I happen to have in my pocket."

I make an informed, educated decision. My dogs each serve a specific purpose. They were sought after and purchased for a reason. The only exception are my 'lap dog(s)'. I like having a small dog. I don't care which breed it is. I always go the rescue/shelter route when I'm seeking a lap dog. 

EVERY lap dog I've had for the past 33 years have had some sort of behavioral problem, which was why they were 'thrown away'. So I suppose even then, they are sought after for a specific reason.


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## LaRen616

Lilie said:


> I won't be made to feel guilty about choices I make when it comes to my animals.


:thumbup:

My GSD is from a byb.

My Dalmatian is from a reputable show breeder.

3 of my 4 cats are from a rescue.

I've gone all 3 routes, if ever I were to get another cat (NEVER) I would rescue. Whenever I get another dog, I will always go through a reputable breeder.


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## robinhuerta

There is no *better way*....Rescue vs Breeder.
BOTH are excellent choices when making the decision to add a "living, breathing, depending creature" to one's family.
Breeders are not the reason that there are so many animals in the shelters and rescues.....HUMAN OWNERS are the reason.
OWNERS have chosen to no longer feel the need or responsibility for the lives of their pets.
OWNERS have chosen to neglect, harm or otherwise DISPOSE of their pets.....not the breeders.
Buying from a breeder does not cause the death of a rescue or shelter dog.....the HUMAN/OWNER who placed them in that situation is the reason & cause of their death.

Rescue & Shelters are a wonderful place to find a very needing. unfortunate animal...that deserves a better chance to live life to it's fullest.
Buying from a breeder is also another way to find an exceptional animal to share your life with.
Do what is BEST for YOU. Don't regret your decision.....but more important....don't make the animal "regret" the decision that you made. JMO


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## katieliz

Don't make the animal regret your decision...wonderful ending to great post! What a GREAT way to express that thought!


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## WateryTart

robinhuerta said:


> Do what is BEST for YOU. Don't regret your decision.....but more important....don't make the animal "regret" the decision that you made. JMO


I just wanted to add that this sums up right here what I personally mean when I say I wanted to "stack the deck."

Getting a pet might or might not be a moral decision, but how to get that pet almost certainly is. And a moral decision doesn't necessarily mean, "Choice A is more moral than Choice B" - a moral decision is about the reasoning that underlies why Choice A was the decision over Choice B. It means, "Choice A was the better one for Jim for these reasons." Choice B could be a more moral decision for Susan for other reasons, or because she had different answers to the same questions Jim asked himself.

"Stacking the deck" might mean getting what you want, but on a deeper level it might also mean giving that dog the best chance of being successful in your home.

Rescue vs breeder is like the choice to live in a city or the country, to have children or not, whether to adopt those children, whether or not you go to church: It's very personal and no one else's business. Period.


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## Vandal

> I personally, strongly disagree with buying from a breeder. I feel like every time a dog is bought from a breeder, a shelter dog loses their chance.


 The math disagrees with this idiotic claim. Even one of the biggest breeder hating organizations of all admitted it....probably by accident since their specialty is deception but it's right here for you to watch and listen to:http://www.nathanwinograd.com/?cat=9

If people _really_ wanted to help dogs in shelters, they would do something about the way they are operated. I realize it's easier to just point fingers on forums rather than get off your rear ends and do something about what you constantly complain about. 

BTW, the over-population thing has been a myth for years now....but letting go of an effective, albeit dishonest "marketing campaign" is hard for the likes of PETA and HSUS.


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## my boy diesel

correct me if i am wrong but winograds ramblings are not gospel truth to my knowledge
anyone who has worked in shelters knows that they are overburdened and overpopulated
and the animals just keep flowing in


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## Vandal

I am actually talking about the video but I realize what is said there just doesn't fit what you want to believe. There are other people who are also familiar with these facts but it was interesting to hear HSUS say it. Sooner or later, you have to spill the truth...at least before it becomes indisputable. 
BTW, your sources are not exactly credible. Do they have statistics? Please share.


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## my boy diesel

actually it is a pretty good point because in this small sampling of people which is probably representative of a portion of the population in the us 
we have heard 3-4 or more of you state flatly you would never adopt a rescue or shelter dog
that rules out those homes for rescued or shelter pets so yes there is still a huge issue
AnimalKind.org: Pet Overpopulation: The Facts
as long as people believe shelter and rescue pets are defective or they want something prettier or nicer or more stable or whatever there will always be too few responsible homes to adopt them


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## WateryTart

my boy diesel said:


> actually it is a pretty good point because in this small sampling of people which is probably representative of a portion of the population in the us
> we have heard 3-4 or more of you state flatly you would never adopt a rescue or shelter dog
> that rules out those homes for rescued or shelter pets so yes there is still a huge issue
> AnimalKind.org: Pet Overpopulation: The Facts
> as long as people believe shelter and rescue pets are defective or they want something prettier or nicer or more stable or whatever there will always be too few responsible homes to adopt them


I think it depends on how you define your population. You're saying essentially that all current and prospective dog homes are the same population. Of course your points make sense if you're coming from that assumption, which frankly I think is flawed.

Others are saying they're _not_ the same population, and I think that's more accurate. As far as rescues are concerned, some homes don't exist. As far as breeders are concerned, some homes don't exist. For every person who says they would never consider X, there are probably people who would never consider Y.

So what's the problem? I guess I'm really not seeing how your arguments hold water. People will make the choices that work for them, and that will look different for different people.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

katieliz said:


> Don't make the animal regret your decision...wonderful ending to great post! What a GREAT way to express that thought!


 
This :thumbup:! Thank you Robin for stating it and katieliz for bringing it back. in the end whatever you decuide be responsible and take care of this companion.


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## Vandal

> Originally Posted by *my boy diesel*
> _actually it is a pretty good point because in this small sampling of people which is probably representative of a portion of the population in the us
> we have heard 3-4 or more of you state flatly you would never adopt a rescue or shelter dog
> that rules out those homes for rescued or shelter pets so yes there is still a huge issue
> AnimalKind.org: Pet Overpopulation: The Facts
> as long as people believe shelter and rescue pets are defective or they want something prettier or nicer or more stable or whatever there will always be too few responsible homes to adopt them_


 Guessing, by you or people you know, has nothing to do with statistics. The link you offered leaves out the one very important statistic....the 17 million people looking for pets. This is the way the AR groups operate. They only tell you what they think will persuade you to think just like they do. 

The fact remains, there are many more people looking for pets than those being euthanized. Trying to guilt people into buying or “adopting” something they really don’t want is a pretty stupid way to operate. Might work once but the second time people get wiser and a bit more resentful. I think we see that happening now with some of the bigger AR organizations.

As for people saying they would never get a rescue. I’ll have to go back and see what was really said but I personally, have quite a few rescues here at the moment and many more have passed through on their way to new homes. Nope, I do not consider myself a “rescuer”, I run a boarding kennel, I train dogs and I am a dog breeder...and I am also someone who really likes animals. Shocking I know. 
I always have been, in spite of what the AR groups would like you to believe about people like me. I also know many more people just like me. They just don’t get on the internet and proclaim themselves to be holier than the rest because they help animals in need. It’s just something they do freely with their time and money.
I will always use dogs from my breedings for SchH or whatever else requires a certain temperament. That doesn’t exclude doing the rest of what I just talked about.

It’s a shame the temperament of many of the rescue people is not a bit different. Or maybe they could be smarter. Dividing people may work to get politicians elected and to manipulate people into agreeing with bad ideas but I have not seen it work out well for animals. So many breeders have the skills, (and facilities), to care for animals properly, yet they are demonized by many rescues and of course, the AR groups. I personally will never work with dog rescuers. Some of the meanest people I have ever encountered. Last incident was when a group of us offered to help and a dog breeder offered to foster a dog in a high kill shelter. The vicious way they attacked that breeder was disgraceful. We simply went around them to get the dog. No one deserves that treatment when they simply step up to help an animal but I see that behavior ALL the time.


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## WateryTart

Vandal said:


> It’s a shame the temperament of many of the rescue people is not a bit different. Or maybe they could be smarter. Dividing people may work to get politicians elected and to manipulate people into agreeing with bad ideas but I have not seen it work out well for animals. So many breeders have the skills, (and facilities), to care for animals properly, yet they are demonized by many rescues and of course, the AR groups. I personally will never work with dog rescuers. Some of the meanest people I have ever encountered. Last incident was when a group of us offered to help and a dog breeder offered to foster a dog in a high kill shelter. The vicious way they attacked that breeder was disgraceful. We simply went around them to get the dog. No one deserves that treatment when they simply step up to help an animal but I see that behavior ALL the time.


Point well taken. I've met exactly 3 people offline involved with rescue, with whom I would think about working. Three. And why would I, when I can find pretty much exactly what I'm looking for with a good breeder? Not one of the emotional or moral imperative arguments is going to win me over, nor will the "you find exactly the right dog" argument because I think we've already established that at least some people believe there's more than one right route to the right dog.

I was thinking about this thread yesterday when my husband and I were walking our girl and we were stopped by yet another person who made the assumption we had rescued her. She clearly admired our puppy and commented several times not only on how pretty she is but also how calm and collected for a 16 week old, and how nice it was that her angulation wasn't as pronounced as "those show bred dogs." And I decided, _You know what, I _want_ people to know that my pretty girl was the result of careful and ethical breeding. I _want_ people to realize that there are breeders out there producing these lovely dogs with amazing temperaments._ And I said, "Actually, her sire and dam are show dogs, and I was specifically looking for a breeder who valued health and structure and temperament." And there was surprise. Because breeders apparently don't love dogs?


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## middleofnowhere

Just a reminder "always" and "never" are often words of regret - they're strident words and can lead to embarrasment when circumstances change and you end up doing "never" and the heck with "always." So be careful with those vows!


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## lalachka

middleofnowhere said:


> Just a reminder "always" and "never" are often words of regret - they're strident words and can lead to embarrasment when circumstances change and you end up doing "never" and the heck with "always." So be careful with those vows!


Lol for sure. I try not to, I've felt stupid many times


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## WateryTart

middleofnowhere said:


> Just a reminder "always" and "never" are often words of regret - they're strident words and can lead to embarrasment when circumstances change and you end up doing "never" and the heck with "always." So be careful with those vows!


Strident? Definite, yes. And they should be used judiciously. But they're not necessarily strident or wrong to use; people _can_ know things definitely and I tend to give them the respect of believing them when they say they know their own minds. 

But thanks!


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## my boy diesel

the overall climate of this thread is that you cannot find a good dog in rescue
a good balanced stable whatever key word you want to use 
and that is not the case
what people are saying is that if you go to a shelter it may be a bit of a crap shoot because of not enough evaluating of the dogs 
but in a good rescue (and yes there are some) the dog has been evaluated often by living in foster care and there the wheat is separated from the chaff so to speak

you can find safe and reliable stable healthy dogs in rescues 
for those who say "i will never get a rescue dog" you ought to open your minds and see what is out there before running to a breeder if all you want is a nice healthy and stable family pet


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## WateryTart

my boy diesel said:


> for those who say "i will never get a rescue dog" you ought to open your minds and see what is out there before running to a breeder if all you want is a nice healthy and stable family pet


Why? Convince us.

Honestly, my response to your claims is, "So what?" Not in a snide way, but in a, "persuade me" way.


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## WateryTart

*To add (because I can't edit):* Keep in mind I've never claimed you can't find a good dog in rescue. I didn't say that. I've only said I think I stand the best chance of getting what I want by going through a breeder, and that's what I did. I don't see why I should change my approach in the future, and frankly, I have no plans to consider changing my approach in the future, but I'm very interested in what you might say to convince me otherwise.


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## lalachka

WateryTart said:


> Strident? Definite, yes. And they should be used judiciously. But they're not necessarily strident or wrong to use; people _can_ know things definitely and I tend to give them the respect of believing them when they say they know their own minds.
> 
> But thanks!


you don't know what you'd do unless you're in that situation. you can have an idea but that idea doesn't always match what happens once you're in that situation. 

also, people change over the years, their values and beliefs change. 

but yeah, believe whatever you want.


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## WateryTart

lalachka said:


> you don't know what you'd do unless you're in that situation. you can have an idea but that idea doesn't always match what happens once you're in that situation.
> 
> also, people change over the years, their values and beliefs change.
> 
> but yeah, believe whatever you want.


I am not claiming that I always know my own mind. But I do believe that people can, so my personal approach is to treat their definite response with respect: Okay, this is what you are saying, and I will believe you.

for instance, if someone says, "I will never believe in God." Okay. I will assume you've thought that through, and this is a statement you believe to be true. I won't try to tell them, "Oh, you'll change your mind someday." I'll say, "Okay."


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## lalachka

WateryTart said:


> I am not claiming that I always know my own mind. But I do believe that people can, so my personal approach is to treat their definite response with respect: Okay, this is what you are saying, and I will believe you.
> 
> for instance, if someone says, "I will never believe in God." Okay. I will assume you've thought that through, and this is a statement you believe to be true. I won't try to tell them, "Oh, you'll change your mind someday." I'll say, "Okay."


ohh that. yeah i believe people too. 
I was talking about ourselves. like me looking at a woman being abused and saying 'if this was me I'd never let anyone treat me like that' because I know that with the 'right' man it can happen to almost any woman. and stuff like that. I'd never use drugs, i'd never commit a crime, and on and on


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## my boy diesel

watery i cannot persuade you because i cannot visit you in person and take you to a shelter
i would advise to visit and volunteer at shelters before making up your mind one way or another

actually as for your "persuade me' comments i would simply say keep an open mind in all areas of your life
shelter dogs included

volunteering is a very good start


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## WateryTart

my boy diesel said:


> watery i cannot persuade you because i cannot visit you in person and take you to a shelter
> i would advise to visit and volunteer at shelters before making up your mind one way or another
> 
> actually as for your "persuade me' comments i would simply say keep an open mind in all areas of your life
> shelter dogs included


I've been to shelters. I don't foresee ever considering a shelter dog. With the whole "never say never" caveat - I just don't ever think I'll do it. And I don't see why I should. I know all the reasons why others do it, but I've never felt moved to act in this particular way and don't predict I will in the future.

So really the question is, Why should I? I don't see why I should. I think all people _should_ do is seek out an ethical source for a pet, and that isn't a single resource.

*Edit:* I've volunteered with a rescue as well. I'm still not feeling a sense of urgency here for considering a rescue dog.


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## lalachka

WateryTart said:


> I've been to shelters. I don't foresee ever considering a shelter dog. With the whole "never say never" caveat - I just don't ever think I'll do it. And I don't see why I should. I know all the reasons why others do it, but I've never felt moved to act in this particular way and don't predict I will in the future.
> 
> So really the question is, Why should I? I don't see why I should. I think all people _should_ do is seek out an ethical source for a pet, and that isn't a single resource.
> 
> *Edit:* I've volunteered with a rescue as well. I'm still not feeling a sense of urgency here for considering a rescue dog.


Can you explain the sense of urgency part? it's not the first time I hear that there's no overpopulation problem. to me that's too big of a conspiracy but it does feel fake sometimes. 

sorry if I'm wrong but sometimes I get the feeling that this is just a new business, flipping dogs under the guise of rescuing. this is just a feeling I get, not anything I read.


----------



## WateryTart

lalachka said:


> ohh that. yeah i believe people too.
> I was talking about ourselves. like me looking at a woman being abused and saying 'if this was me I'd never let anyone treat me like that' because I know that with the 'right' man it can happen to almost any woman. and stuff like that. I'd never use drugs, i'd never commit a crime, and on and on


I don't think it's useful to tell people, "You just never know..." - it comes across as super condescending. So I just believe them and it might turn out to be true or it might not be. It's far more respectful to just go with it. As for myself, I think there are some things that I can be confident I know for/about myself, and some things I probably can't.

There isn't anything wrong with deciding those things.


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## lalachka

WateryTart said:


> I don't think it's useful to tell people, "You just never know..." - it comes across as super condescending. So I just believe them and it might turn out to be true or it might not be. It's far more respectful to just go with it. As for myself, I think there are some things that I can be confident I know for/about myself, and some things I probably can't.
> 
> There isn't anything wrong with deciding those things.


i agree, I never say that either. but I do know that we really don't know ourselves as well as we think and I do think that sometimes people say things that aren't true. I don't tell them they never know but If I'm in the mood then I will explain that we don't know how we will feel 10 years down the line. 

we change every day, our beliefs change too. 

when it comes to adopting I feel the same way, I probably won't. but this is me of today saying that. today I'm doing things I'd never believe I'd be doing a year ago. 

so yeah  never know. or maybe I'm just not stable lol



ETA to your latest post. yep same here. I don't feel I owe people to pick up their slack. I do feel bad for the dogs, it's not their fault. I would've rescued my first dog but the neutering clause and their application made me not to. now my next dog will probably come from a breeder because I'm looking for something specific.


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## WateryTart

lalachka said:


> Can you explain the sense of urgency part? it's not the first time I hear that there's no overpopulation problem. to me that's too big of a conspiracy but it does feel fake sometimes.
> 
> sorry if I'm wrong but sometimes I get the feeling that this is just a new business, flipping dogs under the guise of rescuing. this is just a feeling I get, not anything I read.


Sure.

All I meant was that I don't feel like I'm contributing to any kind of problem by choosing not to rescue. I am doing my ethical duty by getting the dog who fits into my home and who will stay in my home. If I don't dump my dog, I'm not a part of the problem, and my obligation ends. I feel no sense of urgency in the sense that I feel no moral imperative to rescue or even to consider doing so.


----------



## WateryTart

lalachka said:


> i agree, I never say that either. but I do know that we really don't know ourselves as well as we think and I do think that sometimes people say things that aren't true. I don't tell them they never know but If I'm in the mood then I will explain that we don't know how we will feel 10 years down the line.
> 
> we change every day, our beliefs change too.
> 
> when it comes to adopting I feel the same way, I probably won't. but this is me of today saying that. today I'm doing things I'd never believe I'd be doing a year ago.
> 
> so yeah  never know. or maybe I'm just not stable lol


I operate under the assumption that there are mostly fluids and some key absolutes, and every person probably has some things that they absolutely know about themselves. There are some things that can be constants. Nobody gets to tell me I don't know my own mind, because they know it even less than I do! I will negotiate with myself, and they can do the same. I'll probably change my mind on plenty of things, and there are some things I can say with confidence I won't.

There's nothing wrong with that. Deciding some of these things is perfectly acceptable and part of growing up, just as accepting that some things do change is part of growing up.


----------



## IllinoisNative

LaRen616 said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> My GSD is from a byb.
> 
> My Dalmatian is from a reputable show breeder.
> 
> 3 of my 4 cats are from a rescue.
> 
> I've gone all 3 routes, if ever I were to get another cat (NEVER) I would rescue. Whenever I get another dog, I will always go through a reputable breeder.


That's how I feel.

My first dog (Golden Retriever) was from a byb before I knew better.

My GSD/Rottie mix and my chow/aussie/lab mix were from shelters.

My cat was from a rescue.

I also volunteered for a rescue where I fostered, trained, helped with shows, and transport since we rescued dogs from down south (ie, Katrina, etc.). In my twenties, I also worked at dog boarding/grooming facility. The wife bred and competed in agility with boarder collies.

I have a pretty good understanding regarding all forms of acquiring an animal...lol.

If I get a cat again (also NEVER), it will be an adult from a rescue. My next dog, however, will be from a breeder.

I only want a puppy. Do you know how hard it is to find a well-bred GSD puppy from a shelter or rescue? I want specific things from my dog, I want a certain temperament, I want a certain look. I need to know what goes into my dog from the time they are babies. Even my two shelter dogs were puppies when I got them. I got the outgoing puppies in their litters because I know temperament is genetic. 

That's why I rebuke the claim that getting a dog from a breeder would cause a shelter dog to die. I only get puppies and those go quick. Getting a puppy from a breeder wouldn't cause a dog to die when I was never going to get an adult dog from a shelter/rescue in the first place.

I want to stack the odds in my favor of a good temperament...the rest is up to me. I'm around a lot of kids, other animals, and people. My dog has to be reliable. I need to know every quirk, tick, thought my dog has...which is why I always go the puppy route. I can anticipate what my dogs do before they do...lol. That's the type of reliability I need. It's far easier to prevent problems than try to fix them once they are established. I don't want an adult dog with issues. I don't want to correct housebreaking in an adult dog...or correct resource guarding...or possible aggression/fear issues.

I want a breeder that breeds for reliable temperament so that the rest is up to me. If you like a breed that is considered aggressive or has aggressive/protective tendencies like the GSD...it's safer/easier to go with a reputable breeder.

And I want to support reputable breeders.


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## DJGinger

My dog is a German Shepherd from a breeder of working dogs, donated as a call went out when my son's service dog was poisoned 2011. Instead of 5 year wait for fully trained dog or longer wait for fully trained single coat (Sara was a oversize Dobie. No good for show but great lines and donated with about 50k in training. And his behavioral dog Ernie was a min pin that they threw the CGC fail sister in because she could sense my migraines. Both were fed antifreeze laden food through fence where they were boarded over a weekend)
My son has autism and can be quite startling to dogs. Knowing she is from lines that are not nervous is good. She may have to high a drive in the end and maybe end up a sport dog and guardian and companion. The breeder will take her back anytime. Pay the shipping.
My last personal dog was a mutt, we had chows. In my youth I bred and showed Brittany Spaniels. I was a Persian cat breeer (btw- I trust no one, my babies that didn't pass muster or retirees-were sterilized BEFORE they left. I had a vet working with me)

In Phoenix area, I rescued and rehabbed E-list dogs for 3 years.
But I did not expend energy on broken dogs. Pragmatism says save the best and safety first. Plus better candidates train solid and don't end up rehomed (2 did end up rehomed. Apartment problems- they contacted me by FB and I found previous requesters) I screened carefully over a week.
First visits, play time, walk near other dogs, often some aggressive, tested in the cat room . Tested with my **** minpin. Then came meeting my son and other children. And final phase controlled meet with calm chickens.
Ironically, I would say 50% of the dogs that passed were pit breeds. I wouldn't foster more than 2 at a time. Some were fast because their extreme motivation and desire for socialization. The toughest was longhair doxie I got right after owner turn in and a Kelpie escape artist (who I didnt break of habit). I fostered and re-homed 35 dogs total. Most large. Many purebred. 4 were over 10. 1 had blindness. All at my own expense, adoption fee was: proper sized crate bought, home inspection, insurance, and tags. And 20 bucks when I surrendered the microchip info as transfer of animal. Total fail and surrender back to pound was a huskey mix.. hidden aggression that came out when he was comfortable in week 2. Certain age children and dogs of similar appearance.
My fosters all passed CGC, and basic obedience, were house and crate trained. But I wouldn't go to pound for a service dog unless it was simply a behavior dog like therapy or emotional support. Seeing eye dog? Full autism dog? No way! Some realism is needed on wonder dog being a hidden gem at the pound.

And though I had dog training experience, Melasa's breed is mostly unfamiliar to me in practice and I'm getting stumbling points. If she was badly bred that could've been disastrous.
If Melasa fails at the particular service needed (my one beef was I was supposed to get an older male dog selected by the donation agency. Not a fresh baby girl.) She still is a very good dog in foundation. 


Being a mom of a disabled child and a person about to have more young children in the house, the base temperament being predictable is paramount.
*Reputable* breeders also have health guarantees and pre-screened candidates as well as screening on parents. It lowers chance of illness or strange health problem cropping up.

The entire question is not either/ or. The question is, can I find what I want and need at shelter? Personally in my case, not at this time of my life. I am not going to even try.
Every dog I own from this point forward is likely going to be selected at a breeder or referred thru a breeder for specific fit and traits.


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## SilverShipGSD

Just wondering. Why is only a puppy acceptable?


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## katieliz

different strokes for different folks? whatever works for a person? again, what's important is that people are responsible and caring for the dogs they DO get, wherever they get them. 

shelter dogs? every day's like Christmas morning, you never know exactly what you're gonna get. there is a way to stack the deck in your favor (behaviorally) even with shelter dogs tho. something called shelter favorites. I have found over and over again, that any dog who is singled out by a shelter worker as worth advocating for, is a pretty darn good dog. like maybe even an exceptional dog. 

about "knowing yourself" and absolutes...you tend to know yourself better and better as you get older and older, lolol...


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## WateryTart

SilverShipGSD said:


> Just wondering. Why is only a puppy acceptable?


I would have been cool with an adult (maybe a retired breeding dog or a placement from a breeder), but my husband wanted the dog to grow up with our cats. This was one of his stipulations for me getting a GSD. I said fine. And honestly, I like having a puppy. I'd go this route again, because I had a great experience with my breeder and I enjoy my puppy.


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## HarleyTheGSD

Someone probably already posted this, but I'll go on.
Some people purchase a GSD from a reputable breeder who raises their dogs for IPO. The pups are often IPO prospect. Some people (myself included) actually buy a puppy to raise it for IPO or other dog sports. Looking through a pup's pedigree will give you an idea on how that pup will do in sport. My next GSD will be from Czech working lines. I will raise that pup for IPO. Because I love the sport. And, if I get it from the right place, the puppy will excel in that sport. 

Someday, I would love to take home a rescue. I'm actually considering getting my next Parrot from a rescue.


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## SilverShipGSD

WateryTart said:


> I would have been cool with an adult (maybe a retired breeding dog or a placement from a breeder), but my husband wanted the dog to grow up with our cats. This was one of his stipulations for me getting a GSD. I said fine. And honestly, I like having a puppy. I'd go this route again, because I had a great experience with my breeder and I enjoy my puppy.


I see. Just something to think about. All my GSDs have been shelter rescues (I also have fostered for the GSD club of America and the Newfoundland club of America for the last 20 or so years) but the first one.
He was from a working line bred by a police officer for shutz and police work. When I bought him as a pup we thought he had a lower drive and calmer manner than the other pups in that litter and took him home. 
He was a sweet wonderful boy just great with my young children. About a year later we took him to a meet and saw another side to him. He paced the fence around the other dogs staring at the participants. Stood perfectly still when the other dogs were focused on their handlers and jumped a foot in the air when he heard "Los!" His breeder saw all this and after the meet offered me twice what I paid for him. I saw how driven Fritz was and happy in this environment so we agreed. He went on to become a canine officer with titles as well. 

My only point to this is that as a puppy you just don't all ways know what you are going to get. If I have the option I would much rather get an older dog. And I have had many pups that hate cats no matter what age they are. Lol?


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## WateryTart

SilverShipGSD said:


> I see. Just something to think about. All my GSDs have been shelter rescues (I also have fostered for the GSD club of America and the Newfoundland club of America for the last 20 or so years) but the first one.
> He was from a working line bred by a police officer for shutz and police work. When I bought him as a pup we thought he had a lower drive and calmer manner than the other pups in that litter and took him home.
> He was a sweet wonderful boy just great with my young children. About a year later we took him to a meet and saw another side to him. He paced the fence around the other dogs staring at the participants. Stood perfectly still when the other dogs were focused on their handlers and jumped a foot in the air when he heard "Los!" His breeder saw all this and after the meet offered me twice what I paid for him. I saw how driven Fritz was and happy in this environment so we agreed. He went on to become a canine officer with titles as well.
> 
> My only point to this is that as a puppy you just don't all ways know what you are going to get. If I have the option I would much rather get an older dog. And I have had many pups that hate cats no matter what age they are. Lol&#55357;&#56841;


My stipulation was knowing dogs from my dog's bloodlines and having a general idea of the heredity - so I won't be thinking about rescue in the future. I'm good with breeder puppies.  I chose carefully and did my homework and it's been a positive experience for us. I think I can say it works for us and right now I don't see any reason to do anything differently in the future! Thanks, though!


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## SilverShipGSD

WateryTart said:


> My stipulation was knowing dogs from my dog's bloodlines and having a general idea of the heredity - so I won't be thinking about rescue in the future. I'm good with breeder puppies.  I chose carefully and did my homework and it's been a positive experience for us. I think I can say it works for us and right now I don't see any reason to do anything differently in the future! Thanks, though!


Gotcha! ?


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## WateryTart

Off topic, what is that box supposed to be? I'm guessing it's some kind of fun emoticon we don't have on the forum, but I can't see it!


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## Shonya

*The Pitfalls of Larger Scale Breeders*

I have had 3 dogs from breeders, while my sister has had 5 from rescues. One of the most critical issues from breeders is how much the dogs get handled. The breeder dogs I have had have been more oriented towards other dogs than they have people, which strongly suggests that they are not being handled enough by humans during their critical weeks before they get to their owners. Unfortunately, this sets a lifelong, unchangeable pattern. I worked like mad to train my puppy, socialize it with other people, and to develop my bond, to no avail. All of my sister's dogs have been more oriented towards people. She always has two at a time, and each dog is more bonded with her than it is with the other dog, though they get along with each other very well. Rescue dogs can usually be taken home on a temporary basis to make sure there is a good fit, so you can make a very informed opinion about the dog's behavior, which you cannot do with a breeder.

Furthermore, breeders are far more likely to behave unethically if you are not happy with your dog. I posted a year ago and made the mistake of not walking away from my deposit. I am in a much worse situation now, with thousands lost instead of a deposit, and heartache to boot. The breeder is well thought of on this forum and has definite friends here who post regularly. A small hobby breeder, however, who does it for the love of it rather than the income is a different "breed," if you will. I would consider going to that kind of person if I could meet many of the dogs to evaluate them. 

(Note: I'm not yet prepared to identify my breeder, but I will do so via PM, of course, as soon as I am ready so that others can be fully informed when making their decisions. There are some legal issues I am checking into before I can disclose. I will post again when I am ready in the Breeder area of the forum.)


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## glowingtoadfly

PM me your breeder please?


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## gsdsar

Shonya said:


> I have had 3 dogs from breeders, while my sister has had 5 from rescues. One of the most critical issues from breeders is how much the dogs get handled. The breeder dogs I have had have been more oriented towards other dogs than they have people, which strongly suggests that they are not being handled enough by humans during their critical weeks before they get to their owners. Unfortunately, this sets a lifelong, unchangeable pattern. I worked like mad to train my puppy, socialize it with other people, and to develop my bond, to no avail. All of my sister's dogs have been more oriented towards people. She always has two at a time, and each dog is more bonded with her than it is with the other dog, though they get along with each other very well. Rescue dogs can usually be taken home on a temporary basis to make sure there is a good fit, so you can make a very informed opinion about the dog's behavior, which you cannot do with a breeder.
> 
> .)



I am sorry you are having trouble with your dog. But I have to disagree with you on this. I have bought all my dogs from breeders and all of them are happy, healthy, love people. 2 are from larger operations, though not commercial, but more than 3 litters a year. 

Rescue dogs are bred by someone too. They don't appear fully grown in a pound. Someone bred, bought, raised them. 

I wish you all the best with your dog.


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## selzer

gsdsar said:


> I am sorry you are having trouble with your dog. But I have to disagree with you on this. I have bought all my dogs from breeders and all of them are happy, healthy, love people. 2 are from larger operations, though not commercial, but more than 3 litters a year.
> 
> Rescue dogs are bred by someone too. They don't appear fully grown in a pound. Someone bred, bought, raised them.
> 
> I wish you all the best with your dog.


 Agree with this. Small breeders with 3 or less litters per year can also be unethical and lack in some of how they raise them. And rescues are bred by someone. 

Just because you had a problem with your breeder, doesn't mean they are all like that, it just means you had a problem. If you have problems with multiple breeders, maybe the problem is not so much with the breeder, or maybe it is where/how you are finding them.


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## JakodaCD OA

and I'll add to this as well, I have / had 6 dogs all from breeders, some I never met and purchased a puppy via them. Every single one of them, (and at one point I had 4 at the same time), never bonded to the other dogs over me, they all lived together in my home, not kenneled. I have also had 2 rescues as well, same thing with them. 

While it seems you haven't had good experiences with breeder(s), certainly can't lump them all in the same bucket..


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## Castlemaid

Also wanted to add, please do NOT post your breeder's name/kennel name here. The board has a no- breeder bashing policy, so any negatives should be communicated by PM only. 

This is to protect the board and its members from legal action (you wouldn't believe the stuff we have to deal with some breeders - constant treath of legal action, constant PM harassment over the most innocent comment made by someone that isn't 2000% gushing about how wonderful they are). Also, the board is not a public vehicle to air out breeder/buyer disagreements - those should also be dealt with privately.


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## SusiQ

I have had both as well and my next dogs will be from rescue - not because I have anything against breeders - but simply because I am personally beyond the place in my life where I want to do the "puppy thing" all over again - in fact, I think I'll be looking for a senior (or two) to love next time!


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## Girl_Loves_Hydraulics

I think this could be turned into a monthly topic from the looks of it lol...This is the hard question because it is such a polarizing topic. This is my take on it. I'm going to do WHATEVER I want regardless of what other people say or feel. I've had bad experiences with both breeders (and ones that when I joined this board had such a "great" reputation, yeah ok), and rescues (gotta love when you live in a country that anyone can have a kid, but I have to sell my soul to adopt a dog). So, in short, do what makes YOU happy. If you want to breed, then I hope you do so with the correct knowledge and care it takes to do so. If you want to adopt from a rescue group, go ahead, you can now tell everyone how you saved a life. Point is, who cares what everyone's opinion is? It's all about your judgment and what you feel is best. But make a decision that is best not just for yourself, but your dog also.


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## finndog

I would never ever get a rescue GSD. Too big, too hard a bite, too much dog for there to be a potential temperament problem around me or my family.


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## Sabis mom

finndog said:


> I would never ever get a rescue GSD. Too big, too hard a bite, too much dog for there to be a potential temperament problem around me or my family.


 Aside from the fact that this is an old thread, that statement is astounding. 
How is an adult rescue with a known temperament a risk?


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## Nigel

Most of the rescues I've come to know must of had a people problem as their reason for surrender, nothing wrong with the temperament. Too many people go into dog ownership with rose colored glasses. Once they find out there's work involved they bail, not the dogs fault.


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## Stonevintage

If you want a very specific type of GSD behaviour - and absolutely expect it if the pup is to remain with your family, then yea - don't ever consider a rescue or an adoption of an older pup. I don't think that some have the patience or understanding that an older dog requires. For the more flexible - thanks for giving another chance and it's great to read all the success stories!


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## Stevenzachsmom

Like Sabis already mentioned - this is an OLD thread, so I wasn't going to bother responding. But, wow, I just have to. My Annie was a 2 year old shelter dog. She was brought directly from the shelter into our home, with three young kids. She was wonderful.

Annie was completely housebroken, not destructive and adored the kids. There was nothing hard about her. She was my first GSD, but not my first dog. 99.9 percent of dog ownership is common sense, IMO. I agree with Nigel. I'd say it this way. Rescue dogs aren't bad. They just had bad owners.


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## Magwart

Sabis mom said:


> Aside from the fact that this is an old thread


Do you think there's any chance this is the return of Lykoz? It has "troll" written all over it.


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## llombardo

Magwart said:


> Do you think there's any chance this is the return of Lykoz? It has "troll" written all over it.


I thought this morning that some posts are very familiar but I couldn't put my finger on it.


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## finndog

Sabis mom said:


> Aside from the fact that this is an old thread, that statement is astounding.
> How is an adult rescue with a known temperament a risk?


Nothing astounding about it.

We gave a dog away because it was going for my nephew. Nephew was standing on its tail playing with it because he was only 18 months old and thought it was funny.

The dog, with the most fanstastic temperament ever, even around kids, would snap at him with bared teeth in certain situations, and when my nephew had certain body language about him.

Someone adopting him could never know that, until he decided to bite their child.

A friend was badly mauled [only on the arms] by his otherwise fanstastic dog from a shelter, because he was jet washing his decking and the dog flipped. He'd had him for years. Turns out that in puppyhood he was with a scum bag family who used to spray him with a jet wash [if you've ever felt the spray from one, it HURTS]. Something else nobody could have known.

If i don't know how my pup's been treated from before 8 weeks old then it doesn't come home with me. It's that simple. Again, sorry if this hurts your feelings or contradicts what you read in some book, but this is real life experience talking here.


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## finndog

Oh right i see, certain people have rescue dogs so therefore my preference to not have unknown quantities around my family cuts to the bone.

Instead of accepting my opinion though, it's better to accuse me of being a 'troll' because you don't like what i say despite the fact that i've been totally courteous with everyone.

And no, i'm not the return of whoever that person is. Mods can check IP addresses, don't you know.


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## yuriy

finndog, most of your post I can agree with, but...



finndog said:


> We gave a dog away because it was going for my nephew. Nephew was standing on its tail playing with it because he was only 18 months old and thought it was funny.


... You gave a dog away because it didn't like having someone standing on its tail? Are you actually serious?


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## Sabis mom

finndog said:


> Nothing astounding about it.
> 
> We gave a dog away because it was going for my nephew. Nephew was standing on its tail playing with it because he was only 18 months old and thought it was funny.
> 
> The dog, with the most fanstastic temperament ever, even around kids, would snap at him with bared teeth in certain situations, and when my nephew had certain body language about him.
> 
> Someone adopting him could never know that, until he decided to bite their child.
> 
> A friend was badly mauled [only on the arms] by his otherwise fanstastic dog from a shelter, because he was jet washing his decking and the dog flipped. He'd had him for years. Turns out that in puppyhood he was with a scum bag family who used to spray him with a jet wash [if you've ever felt the spray from one, it HURTS]. Something else nobody could have known.
> 
> If i don't know how my pup's been treated from before 8 weeks old then it doesn't come home with me. It's that simple. *Again, sorry if this hurts your feelings or contradicts what you read in some book, but this is real life experience talking here*.


Your ego is astounding. I own a dog who was horrifically abused for basically the first year of his life. Never had a problem, it's all about knowledge. He just turned 13 in August. I have had more dogs then I can count through my home, some had demons some didn't. Well over a hundred rescues, two put down for temperament issues that were not, in my opinion, able to be resolved. 
Half the members on this forum have rescues, some have multiple rescues.
My mother is missing a fist sized chunk of her thigh, courtesy of a run in with a German Shepherd when she was about 10. She loves my dogs, and networks for me in Ontario when needed, and owns a rescue. My niece has a scar on her face from a friends dog when she was about 5. She now owns a rescue Pit Bull. My son has a scar on his face from a neighbors dog when he was about 3, he loves dogs and helps me all the time. I have scars all over my arm from a foster I had years ago, didn't stop me for a second. Real life experience talking here.
Letting a child torture a dog is beyond irresponsible. Blaming the dog is just wrong.


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## Magwart

So we learned above that FINNdog allegedly rehomed a dog that he let a child torment. And then he goes after at least three people who've actually done the work, many times, of saving countless really good dogs....from homes like his. :crazy:

100% troll.


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## Sabis mom

Magwart said:


> So we learned above that FINNdog allegedly rehomed a dog that he let a child torment. And then he goes after at least three people who've actually done the work, many times, of saving countless really good dogs....from homes like his. :crazy:
> 
> 100% troll.


 :thumbup:


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## finndog

yuriy said:


> finndog, most of your post I can agree with, but...
> 
> 
> 
> ... You gave a dog away because it didn't like having someone standing on its tail? Are you actually serious?





Sabis mom said:


> Your ego is astounding. I own a dog who was horrifically abused for basically the first year of his life. Never had a problem, it's all about knowledge. He just turned 13 in August. I have had more dogs then I can count through my home, some had demons some didn't. Well over a hundred rescues, two put down for temperament issues that were not, in my opinion, able to be resolved.
> Half the members on this forum have rescues, some have multiple rescues.
> My mother is missing a fist sized chunk of her thigh, courtesy of a run in with a German Shepherd when she was about 10. She loves my dogs, and networks for me in Ontario when needed, and owns a rescue. My niece has a scar on her face from a friends dog when she was about 5. She now owns a rescue Pit Bull. My son has a scar on his face from a neighbors dog when he was about 3, he loves dogs and helps me all the time. I have scars all over my arm from a foster I had years ago, didn't stop me for a second. Real life experience talking here.
> Letting a child torture a dog is beyond irresponsible. Blaming the dog is just wrong.





Magwart said:


> So we learned above that FINNdog allegedly rehomed a dog that he let a child torment. And then he goes after at least three people who've actually done the work, many times, of saving countless really good dogs....from homes like his. :crazy:
> 
> 100% troll.





Sabis mom said:


> :thumbup:


What would you suggest? Putting an 18 month old baby in a cage? Yes it was rehomed to a fantastic ex army dog trainer who had no children. I don't know about you people on here but in our family kids come first. When you have a 30", 60kg GSD snapping at a BABY it's time for the dog to go because it's hard to train a BABY to stop stepping on a dog's tail when it can barely talk and is still toddling. It was also impossible to keep them separated due to the layout of the house where this happened, due to the fact that unlike most of you our family doesn't keep its animals in cages [which you like to call 'crates'].

Oh and also....it wasn't my dog. DERP! It was my mum's dog and i was living at home when it happened.

Letting a baby 'torture' a dog lmao you people are so fluffy. 

Yes i'm a troll because i don't agree with you bunch of wet wipes and put my family before a pet dog.

But then i don't know why i expected more when this forum is populated by people who lock their dogs in cages, feed them biscuits and let them sleep on their beds. 

Putting my nephew before a dog after the damage had already been done from the tail stamping point of view (which happened randomly one day and could NOT be stopped)....i'm basically Hitler! What a super troll i am!

This is also happening on a forum where people recently suggested someone rehome a dog if they couldn't spend vast sums of money on personal training. Snapping at baby good, no money for personal training = insta rehome.

Hilarity reigns.


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## yuriy

Layout of the house didn't allow to keep the child separate and you have an issue with crates? Okay. I guess asking to control the child is too much - some parenting might actually be required.


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## Sabis mom

finndog said:


> What would you suggest? Putting an 18 month old baby in a cage?
> I would suggest parenting, and supervision.
> Yes it was rehomed to a fantastic ex army dog trainer who had no children. I don't know about you people on here but in our family kids come first. When you have a 30", 60kg GSD snapping at a BABY it's time for the dog to go because it's hard to train a BABY to stop stepping on a dog's tail when it can barely talk and is still toddling. It was also impossible to keep them separated due to the layout of the house where this happened, due to the fact that unlike most of you our family doesn't keep its animals in cages [which you like to call 'crates'].
> Actually I call them kennels, and when my dogs need vet care they aren't further upset and/or injured by being put in one. Also when people who lack parenting skills come to visit I can keep my dogs safely out of harms way.
> Oh and also....it wasn't my dog. DERP! It was my mum's dog and i was living at home when it happened.
> Letting a baby 'torture' a dog lmao you people are so fluffy.
> 
> Yes i'm a troll because i don't agree with you bunch of wet wipes and put my family before a pet dog.
> 
> But then i don't know why i expected more when this forum is populated by people who lock their dogs in cages, feed them biscuits and let them sleep on their beds.
> My bed is not in a cage..that would be weird
> Putting my nephew before a dog after the damage had already been done from the tail stamping point of view (which happened randomly one day and could NOT be stopped)....i'm basically Hitler! What a super troll i am!
> 
> This is also happening on a forum where people recently suggested someone rehome a dog if they couldn't spend vast sums of money on personal training. Snapping at baby good, no money for personal training = insta rehome.
> 
> Hilarity reigns.


Kids always come first, that's why I taught mine to respect other living things.


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## llombardo

I have a rescue dog that was given up because he was snapping at the kids. He has never once showed that behavior in my home, in fact he adores kids and would do anything for them. That same dog let 3 mentally challenged kids not only approach him, but he laid down so that they could hug him. When I tried moving him he wouldn't move, he wanted to stay with those kids.,my other rescue let a 10 yr old with autism/bi-polar hug and squeeze her neck. She didn't like it and I stepped in, but the kid wouldn't stop. My dog wriggled away from her and went across the room. No teeth, no growling-she simply left the situation. 

So I guess it all depends on the owner, training, and genetics(which I don't know of in either case).

I expect no less from my dogs and they know it. I also expect kids to be controlled by their parents, but I know that isn't going to ever happen. A kid should NEVER be allowed to pull a dogs tail or ears. Shame on anyone who allows this or thinks it's funny.


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## Galathiel

I guess I'm confused, finn. You just joined the forum this month. Was it just to mock and ridicule people? Are you incapable of having a civil disagreement without name calling? Bizarre.


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## Stevenzachsmom

I don't believe in putting children in cages, but if one of mine had ever purposely hurt the dog, he would have red marks on his backside. I do believe in spanking. Being a parent, I understand that things happen. Accidents are one thing. My dogs have always been very forgiving of accidents. When my kids were young, they were always closely monitored with the dog, not just for their own safety, but for the dogs' as well.


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## WateryTart

Stonevintage said:


> If you want a very specific type of GSD behaviour - and absolutely expect it if the pup is to remain with your family, then yea - don't ever consider a rescue or an adoption of an older pup. I don't think that some have the patience or understanding that an older dog requires.


I would absolutely agree with this.

The farther in I got with my puppy, the more I realized that I need a high level of control. I can deal with it when my puppy goes off script, but her breeder wrote the screenplay and I'm the director. Puppy is not. I do not think I am the right personality type for teasing out problem behaviors or doing any level of rehabbing. So I couldn't agree with you more.


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## counter

I will add that we bought Nara from a breeder at 7 or 8 weeks old. Paw Paw came to us as a rescue at 8 months old. Beowulf was an abused, starved and neglected 14-week old, and Kaze was a tormented (trained/exercised with laser light pointers causing OCD) 2.5-year old. Nara is the only one of the pack that has zero quirks or issues. She was raised and loved from the earliest age in our home with our training and lifestyle, and overall she has been the best overall dog when it comes to personality and temperament. Maybe it's due to her pedigree, as it's far superior to our other dogs. Not sure what plays into this more: bloodlines/genetics, or coming to us earlier than the other guys, and also being with loving breeders her first 7-8 weeks of life instead of coming from an abusive situation. Maybe both?!

We've raised 3 (soon to be 4) young children (10-yr old who was 2 when we brought Nara home, 7-yr old, and a 4-yr old) around all of these dogs despite whatever issues and quirks each dog has. Like others have said, you have to train the children AND dogs to respect and know each other's limits and boundaries. ALL of our children are excellent around dogs, both our own and any neighbor's or stranger's dogs, or even loose dogs that we see roaming the neighborhood. We're the family that will get these dogs to come to us and then we bring them in our house or backyard until its owners can be found and reunited.

I was very much against "cage training" when we first got Nara, until I came on here to research and learn more from the very knowledgeable GSD lovers and owners. I didn't want to put my dog in JAIL, but I soon wised up and realized that the benefits outweigh all else, for both the dog AND the humans. Now we have 4 big crates, one for each dog, and the doors are always left open. They chose to go in them at will, and can come and go as they please.


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## Blkgp1

*Question on breeding- opinion*

ok folks question for you. I just finished having a heated discussion with my sister. 

She also has a gsd. a long coat. She wants to breed hers. Personally i think the only reason to breed is to better the breed. There are too many dogs in shelters, especially shepherds. Her dogs has papers but she never got them. Her dog in inbred. Its father is also its grandfather. Per SV standards that is a no no. I agree that its messed up.Its doggy incest. She wants to get another dog from someone giving it away who supposedly has papers but she hasn't seen them , and thinks that having two young dogs under a year one boy and one girl will be easy. i told her i tough it would e difficult especially since she hates noise. She basically called me a few choice names and said there was nothing wrong with what she wants to do. 

I think if she wants to breed she should get her dogs papers, and enter her into competitions and make sure she is good enough to better the breed, and thats not even taking into account the inbred thing. She things the shows are stupid and titles mean nothing. She is convince that her puppies would all find loving homes and nothing bad would happen. I know that isn't always the case. Especially since she herself got rid of her first shepherd because she couldn't handle it.

I know there is no use trying to convince her, but it drives me crazy. Yet she insists on going over it again and again. Am i stupid in my thinking? Because i can't see it from her view. IT just seems elfish and narrow-minded for her to think that it is ok. Oh and her last shepherd i paid for all of it vetting for 6 years before we got into a fight and didn't talk for over a year and guess what.... her dog died. Coincidence, i don't think so. 

Anyone have any thoughts on the subject? Am i just a Bit**?


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## selzer

Blkgp1 said:


> ok folks question for you. I just finished having a heated discussion with my sister.
> 
> She also has a gsd. a long coat. She wants to breed hers. Personally i think the only reason to breed is to better the breed. There are too many dogs in shelters, especially shepherds. Her dogs has papers but she never got them. Her dog in inbred. Its father is also its grandfather. Per SV standards that is a no no. I agree that its messed up.Its doggy incest. She wants to get another dog from someone giving it away who supposedly has papers but she hasn't seen them , and thinks that having two young dogs under a year one boy and one girl will be easy. i told her i tough it would e difficult especially since she hates noise. She basically called me a few choice names and said there was nothing wrong with what she wants to do.
> 
> I think if she wants to breed she should get her dogs papers, and enter her into competitions and make sure she is good enough to better the breed, and thats not even taking into account the inbred thing. She things the shows are stupid and titles mean nothing. She is convince that her puppies would all find loving homes and nothing bad would happen. I know that isn't always the case. Especially since she herself got rid of her first shepherd because she couldn't handle it.
> 
> I know there is no use trying to convince her, but it drives me crazy. Yet she insists on going over it again and again. Am i stupid in my thinking? Because i can't see it from her view. IT just seems elfish and narrow-minded for her to think that it is ok. Oh and her last shepherd i paid for all of it vetting for 6 years before we got into a fight and didn't talk for over a year and guess what.... her dog died. Coincidence, i don't think so.
> 
> Anyone have any thoughts on the subject? Am i just a Bit**?


 
I think that sometimes we allow things that we care about to come into the way of family.

First of all, if she breeds two unpapered dogs, most of them will find homes, and none of them will have two heads. The sun will come up tomorrow, and it won't be the end of the world.

There are so many people breeding GSDs that one more is just another drop in the bucket so to speak. 

But that doesn't mean that your arguments aren't right. What it means is that you have to win your sister over, carefully. 

I mean, if her bitch was certainly going to die, if she did this, it would be much easier to convince her not to do this. If the puppies were extremely likely to have serious deformities, it would be easier to convince her. 

Some people just want to have puppies. And if the dogs do not have papers, then papers are stupid. If their dogs aren't show dogs, then showing dogs is stupid. It is next to impossible to convince someone who just wants to make puppies that it is a bad idea. 

If she already had the bitch, and thought the world of her you could maybe tell her of someone that you were reading about that lost her bitch when pregnant. 

But the chances are still good that she will not have serious complications. And she doesn't have the bitch yet, so she doesn't think the world of her, so that argument is a hard sell.

I guess you just have to be delicate in how you approach it. Win her over. You can catch more bees with honey...


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## yuriy

Blkgp1 said:


> ok folks question for you. I just finished having a heated discussion with my sister.
> 
> She also has a gsd. a long coat. She wants to breed hers. Personally i think the only reason to breed is to better the breed. There are too many dogs in shelters, especially shepherds. Her dogs has papers but she never got them. Her dog in inbred. Its father is also its grandfather. Per SV standards that is a no no. I agree that its messed up.Its doggy incest. She wants to get another dog from someone giving it away who supposedly has papers but she hasn't seen them , and thinks that having two young dogs under a year one boy and one girl will be easy. i told her i tough it would e difficult especially since she hates noise. She basically called me a few choice names and said there was nothing wrong with what she wants to do.
> 
> I think if she wants to breed she should get her dogs papers, and enter her into competitions and make sure she is good enough to better the breed, and thats not even taking into account the inbred thing. She things the shows are stupid and titles mean nothing. She is convince that her puppies would all find loving homes and nothing bad would happen. I know that isn't always the case. Especially since she herself got rid of her first shepherd because she couldn't handle it.
> 
> I know there is no use trying to convince her, but it drives me crazy. Yet she insists on going over it again and again. Am i stupid in my thinking? Because i can't see it from her view. IT just seems elfish and narrow-minded for her to think that it is ok. Oh and her last shepherd i paid for all of it vetting for 6 years before we got into a fight and didn't talk for over a year and guess what.... her dog died. Coincidence, i don't think so.
> 
> Anyone have any thoughts on the subject? Am i just a Bit**?


Sounds like your sister wants to make a few easy bucks without any consideration for the animals themselves. All too common, unfortunately. I'm in agreement with you - those dogs should not be bred. Then again, if she had two of the most amazing GSD specimens in the world, I'd still say she shouldn't be breeding them. These are animals, not ATMs. 

I'm of the opinion that people who are not professional breeders (that do breeding for a living) should not be breeding dogs, period. There are more than enough abandoned animals and irresponsible backyard breeders in this world. Breeders at least have the facilities, equipment, and knowledge to take care of a litter and hopefully place pups in good homes. The average dog owner on the other hand... 

Acquaintances of mine bred their boxer with the sole reason of making money. They had a litter of eight or nine, and two of the pups managed to die (in their care) before reaching eight weeks. Their feelings on the subject were "****, we lost a grand." I can't stand people who think of animals as objects.


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## WateryTart

Blkgp1 said:


> ok folks question for you. I just finished having a heated discussion with my sister.
> 
> She also has a gsd. a long coat. She wants to breed hers. Personally i think the only reason to breed is to better the breed. There are too many dogs in shelters, especially shepherds. Her dogs has papers but she never got them. Her dog in inbred. Its father is also its grandfather. Per SV standards that is a no no. I agree that its messed up.Its doggy incest. She wants to get another dog from someone giving it away who supposedly has papers but she hasn't seen them , and thinks that having two young dogs under a year one boy and one girl will be easy. i told her i tough it would e difficult especially since she hates noise. She basically called me a few choice names and said there was nothing wrong with what she wants to do.
> 
> I think if she wants to breed she should get her dogs papers, and enter her into competitions and make sure she is good enough to better the breed, and thats not even taking into account the inbred thing. She things the shows are stupid and titles mean nothing. She is convince that her puppies would all find loving homes and nothing bad would happen. I know that isn't always the case. Especially since she herself got rid of her first shepherd because she couldn't handle it.
> 
> I know there is no use trying to convince her, but it drives me crazy. Yet she insists on going over it again and again. Am i stupid in my thinking? Because i can't see it from her view. IT just seems elfish and narrow-minded for her to think that it is ok. Oh and her last shepherd i paid for all of it vetting for 6 years before we got into a fight and didn't talk for over a year and guess what.... her dog died. Coincidence, i don't think so.
> 
> Anyone have any thoughts on the subject? Am i just a Bit**?


That she's dead wrong and it's a really bad idea? Stupid at best and selfish at worst? Those are my thoughts.

But I don't think you are going to convince her otherwise by laying out any arguments. Maybe you could get her to think twice by conversationally asking if she's thought of this, that, or the other thing (contingencies, bonus points if said contingencies will be very very expensive). Does she think you are going to help her with vet costs? Maybe now would be a good time to disavow her of that notion. The only way I can see her changing her mind is if it actually sinks in that she will be left holding the bag for some very expensive puppies if anything goes wrong.


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## Magwart

WateryTart said:


> The only way I can see her changing her mind is if it actually sinks in that she will be left holding the bag for some very expensive puppies if anything goes wrong.


BYBs never really get left holding the bag. When there are life-threatening, expensive issues, the BYBs can just hand the whole mess off to any public shelter in the United States and wash their hands of it. If she lives in an affluent city, esp. in the north, the shelter's vet will deal with it all when they are dumped, and possibly save them, and homes will be easily found...probably with happy endings all around at tax payer expense. If she lives in a rural area or a non-affluent urban area, esp. in the South, the shelter will just euthanize them all upon arrival--they'll go from the intake bay straight to the euth room, puppies and all. Or if purebred, they might call a breed rescue -- and then some private rescue will step up and take them on if they have a litter foster home (few and far between), and they'll start the process of desperately raising the money to get the needed vet care for parvo, life-threatening complications in the dam, or whatever else went wrong.

These people _always _have ways of externalizing the costs for their mistakes. That's why we're in the situation we're in with thousands of GSDs dying in the United States -- it's virtually risk-free for the BYB, and easily generates a few thousand dollars on Craigslist, esp. if they provide zero vet care, no adoption support, and don't care what happens when placements don't work out.

The only way I've ever seen these people reached is if can we get them to tour the public shelter, and I arrange ahead of time for the shelter manager to make an exception and take them into the cooler (normally not part of any tour), to allow them to see entire litters of young, dead puppies, euthanized even though they were perfectly healthy because the shelter has too many of them, can't afford to transport them north, and is out of space. Those are shockingly common here...and most people can't fathom that there's a poor, agonized soul whose job it is to put the needle in a little wriggling fluff ball that still has puppy breath. Some of the BYBs still will insist it won't happen to _their _byb litter. Yeah, sure. If you don't know what happened to all the dogs you sold on Craigslist down here, chances are pretty good at least one ended up hit by a car or euthanized in some shelter. Or worse.


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## WateryTart

Magwart said:


> BYBs never really get left holding the bag. When there are life-threatening, expensive issues, the BYBs can just hand the whole mess off to any public shelter in the United States and wash their hands of it. If she lives in an affluent city, esp. in the north, the shelter's vet will deal with it all when they are dumped, and possibly save them, and homes will be easily found...probably with happy endings all around at tax payer expense. If she lives in a rural area or a non-affluent urban area, esp. in the South, the shelter will just euthanize them all upon arrival--they'll go from the intake bay straight to the euth room, puppies and all. Or if purebred, they might call a breed rescue -- and then some private rescue will step up and take them on if they have a litter foster home (few and far between), and they'll start the process of desperately raising the money to get the needed vet care for parvo, life-threatening complications in the dam, or whatever else went wrong.
> 
> These people _always _have ways of externalizing the costs for their mistakes. That's why we're in the situation we're in with thousands of GSDs dying in the United States -- it's virtually risk-free for the BYB, and easily generates a few thousand dollars on Craigslist, esp. if they provide zero vet care, no adoption support, and don't care what happens when placements don't work out.
> 
> The only way I've ever seen these people reached is if can we get them to tour the public shelter, and I arrange ahead of time for the shelter manager take them into the cooler to show them entire litters of young, dead puppies, euthanized even though they were perfectly healthy because the shelter has too many of them, can't afford to transport them north, and is out of space. Some of them still will insist it won't happen to _their _byb litter. Yeah, sure. If you don't know what happened to all the dogs you sold on Craigslist down here, chances are pretty good at least one ended up hit by a car or euthanized in some shelter. Or worse.


**** well I tried. I was hoping maybe she could somehow plant the seed of paranoia in her sister and scare her out of it. I forgot you have to care in order to get scared.


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## Magwart

WateryTart said:


> **** well I tried. I was hoping maybe she could somehow plant the seed of paranoia in her sister and scare her out of it. I forgot you have to care in order to get scared.


You could maybe tell her that there are criminal penalties for withholding vet care to sick animals. Maybe she won't know those laws are rarely enforced in most jurisdictions. :smirk:


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## middleofnowhere

A friend just went through this with her daughter and son in law. Nice enough dog but no health clearances, no showing of any kind - nada and probably a sire with similar "background" (aka none). Emergency C section, some pups died, one is with my friend, they still have four and have "lowered the price" -- they were evidently asking 1k for these pups.... BUT the good news is that this turned out not to be a money maker. It turned out to be expensive and time consuming and heart-breaking. 

If the OPs sister keeps insisting on going over this, hang up or walk out. Just say "I am not talking about this anymore. If you say anything more I will hang up/leave" She is not listening so quit hearing her. When things go badly wrong, I would pull out the "told you so" card. Enough is enough.


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## Castlemaid

Magwart said:


> Do you think there's any chance this is the return of Lykoz? It has "troll" written all over it.


That did cross my mind - but the IP checks out.


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## yuriy

Castlemaid said:


> That did cross my mind - but the IP checks out.


It's very, and I do mean _very_ easy to disguise one's IP via a proxy or VPN. I don't know the "Lykoz story" so I've no opinion on the subject, just commenting on the IP-check bit.


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## Blkgp1

Thank you all for your comments. I am fed up with her. I know I won't change her mind but I tried. Knowing her she does thing i will end up paying the vet bills for her dog/puppies. She thinks i am made of money since I don't have kids. I wish there was an easy answer. It had me up all night and was still irritated by it this morning. I mean i understand her want to have puppies etc, i get it. They are cute. But I just can't justify it. **** i still feel guilty buying my girl instead of getting another shelter dog. i have 2 shelter mutts and 4 shelter cats. But this time I wanted something specific and none of the shelters had what i wanted or wouldn't adopt to someone out of state, for obvious reasons. I wish she wasn't so selfish.

And I am not a troll, no clue who that Lycos (sp)? is you are talking about. I just needed to vent and make sure Im not crazy. She has a way of turning things around and making me feel like I am wrong when I know I am not.


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## yuriy

Blkgp1 said:


> Thank you all for your comments. I am fed up with her. I know I won't change her mind but I tried. Knowing her she does thing i will end up paying the vet bills for her dog/puppies. She thinks i am made of money since I don't have kids. I wish there was an easy answer. It had me up all night and was still irritated by it this morning. I mean i understand her want to have puppies etc, i get it. They are cute. But I just can't justify it. **** i still feel guilty buying my girl instead of getting another shelter dog. i have 2 shelter mutts and 4 shelter cats. But this time I wanted something specific and none of the shelters had what i wanted or wouldn't adopt to someone out of state, for obvious reasons. I wish she wasn't so selfish.
> 
> And I am not a troll, no clue who that Lycos (sp)? is you are talking about. I just needed to vent and make sure Im not crazy. She has a way of turning things around and making me feel like I am wrong when I know I am not.


Cut her off. Think of it like training a dog - every time you give in and fix her mistakes, she learns that she can get away with it. In a way you're conditioning her to continue making those bad mistakes, just like feeding a dog that's begging at the table. Make it clear that if she does this, she's 100% on her own, in absolutely every sense (with regards to the puppies/dogs). Don't let her guilt trip you. Some people need to learn the hard way.


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## dogfaeries

Blkgp1 said:


> And I am not a troll, no clue who that Lycos (sp)? is you are talking about. I just needed to vent and make sure Im not crazy. She has a way of turning things around and making me feel like I am wrong when I know I am not.


Nah, the troll comment was aimed at someone else, not you.

I know how frustrating it is to deal with someone who refuses to listen to reason. Feel free to vent!


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## FIREBLADE

I believe in giving a shelter dog a second chance I give to the ASPCA monthly.
But when you have a goal in mind as far as where you want to go with your dog you have to have a good start the right dog.
Being born and raised in Germany I grew up with German Shepherds my Grandfather used to breed them when I was a child I loved his dogs.
But I have to say there is a lot of garbage being breed and that is sad my Shepherd I imported him made it to 17 and no issues health wise.
I have seen some of the things that people offer as German Shepherd and I am not talking reputable breeders but people who look to make a buck and puppy mills.
Having said that if you know what you want from your dog than you know where to look.


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## onyx'girl

FIREBLADE said:


> *I believe in giving a shelter dog a second chance I give to the ASPCA monthly.*


How much of your donation goes to really help the animals? While I commend you for helping financially, the ASPCA and HSUS are paying out huge administrative salaries. I'd rather give funds to the small local shelters or rescues that put it right into helping the animals in my community.


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## Jax08

The ASPCA is a single shelter in NYC. Local shelters do not see any of the money donated. Give directly to your local shelter.

https://www.activistfacts.com/organ...r-the-prevention-of-cruelty-to-animals-aspca/


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## Magwart

I agree about keeping money local to donate to your local shelters and rescues. Every time we see their commercial with the sad music, DH and I say, "Wow, what clean, large cages. That's a really nice shelter. Imagine pulling clean dogs from that kind of facility. Must be nice." Compared to the broken down, decrepit, filthy, over-croweded southern shelters we visit, where nearly every dog is covered in its own urine and feces....That one in that sad commercial looks like a pet spa to those of us visiting unfunded public shelters.

That said, it simply isn'ttrue that the ASPCA gives no money to other shelters. They have a robust grant program for shelters. They've funded an enormous number of transports of dogs from our local southern shelters up north. They also fund community speutering programs. You can find their grant program on their "Pro" site for shelters at the bottom:

ASPCA Professional | ASPCA Professional

They report as follows:


Since 2008, over $89 million has been granted
This is nearly 8,200 grants to date (as of September 30, 2015)
In 2014, the ASPCA awarded nearly 1,300 grants totaling $14.4 million to 850 organizations
The other big thing the ASPA does for other shelters is research into shelter protocol guidance. They're really the only one doing that kind of research. Some of it is helpful to shelter managers who literally have no idea how to run a shelter, manage disease, or disinfect properly. They are essentially the protocol-making body for most public shelters, since nobody else is doing it.

Some of their other work is less helpful. Their behaviorist/statistician makes my brain hurt. They developed the (badly designed) temperament test nearly all shelters use, and have online training for shelter employees to use it. They also research into adoption policies and are strongly advocating for open adoptions (= not saying "no" to anybody who wants a dog), adopting pets as gifts, etc. They claim this is data-driven, by looking at outcomes in shelters where this has been done, and that the outcomes are just as good as shelters who have adoption standards. To my thinking, their data-crunching is full of data-set bias, from what I can tell, selecting data that will omit all the problems. I keep telling them they're externalizing the costs of failed shelter adoptions to private rescues who have to deal with the messes the shelters create with these policies....and they keep ignoring me. I regularly post comments on their blog to point out the statistical errors, data bias, and outright falsehoods in her posts, and they never respond. I've even linked to pictures of the state of some of these "shelter adopted dogs" a year later--emaciated, demodex infested, HW positive when we got them from their previous "shelter adopters." Those pictures get ignored too.


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## WateryTart

Magwart said:


> Some of their other work is less helpful. Their behaviorist/statistician makes my brain hurt. They developed the (badly designed) temperament test nearly all shelters use, and have online training for shelter employees to use it. They also research into adoption policies and are strongly advocating for open adoptions (= not saying "no" to anybody who wants a dog), adopting pets as gifts, etc. They claim this is data-driven, by looking at outcomes in shelters where this has been done, and that the outcomes are just as good as shelters who have adoption standards. To my thinking, their data-crunching is full of data-set bias, from what I can tell, selecting data that will omit all the problems.


As someone with an academic background in research methodology, this makes my brain sad.


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## FIREBLADE

onyx'girl said:


> How much of your donation goes to really help the animals? While I commend you for helping financially, the ASPCA and HSUS are paying out huge administrative salaries. I'd rather give funds to the small local shelters or rescues that put it right into helping the animals in my community.


I didn't forget my local shelter I volunteer and give donations.


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## mkculs

In an ideal world, there would be no shelter dogs. It would be cool if no one bought a dog until all shelter dogs had homes, right? Maybe someday, our entire country will get on board and declare a moratorium on breeding until all rescue dogs are neutered and have a home. I doubt it, but it could happen. 

But until irresponsible breeding ends, it is wrong to expect people to get shelter/rescue dogs when they have specific needs and wants in a dog. For one thing, about 80% of the shelter dogs I see are short-haired dogs that look like they have hound or pit bull in their DNA. Those are specific types bred for specific purposes, and they do not make the right pet for many families. My sister has Coonhounds and does Coonhound and Bloodhound rescue. She cannot have small animals in her home--they will kill them (cats, bunnies, etc). That's ok with her, but it would not work for a lot of folks and would lead to the euthanizing of small animals that can't be placed in homes with some types of dogs.

Shelter and rescue dogs do not fit into every home. Many people get a puppy rather than an adult dog b/c they want to make sure it is safe with their family. An adult dog can have habits that do not fit with the family's life style and/or problem behaviors the family is not equipped to correct. How much time do folks need to spend trying to find a dog that is a right fit? And what about numerous placements for a dog that don't work out? That's not good for them, either. 

Irresponsible breeding--not responsible breeding--is the problem.


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## car2ner

My broken record is "people spend more time researching their next car or vacation than they do their next pet. The car will sit in the driveway a few years. The vacation will last a week. The dog will be sleeping on their couch for a decade, maybe more!" 

Educated people would put mills out of business. They would be less likely to take home a shelter dog that didn't match their life. But people chose emotionally way to often, and that is how many place raise money...give bucks and you'll feel less guilty.

Which reminds me, our local shelter was looking for a new director. I hope they find someone wise. It's not an easy position.


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## ADogCalledQuest

I will never regret owning well bred animals, or doing my best to produce them. They are one of the finest joys in life. When I see someone starting out on the wrong foot, I generally try to give any help and advice I can, with no judgement. They'll do it anyway. Cherish the chance to be kind and educate


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