# Thoughts on e collar training for 10 month old female



## shakariah (May 5, 2016)

She pulls when walking and jumping when greeting people. Wanted to use e collar on vibrate only as deturrant for those behaviord


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Probably easier options to correct these than an e-collar. Have you tried a prong or choke chain.


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## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

no. an e-collar is for remote training/attention getting and correcting at a distance. you can correct where you are in these instances. your dog just needs more training. the dog should already been in advanced off leash obedience training phase, either class or self taught, to be using an e-collar.


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## shakariah (May 5, 2016)

Just got prong collar to try


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

You can but only with a good, trustworthy, experienced trainer. It can be used for close work, but to develop the dog working at a distance. If you use it wrong, you will create a bigger problem than you have now.


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## der-schweinestall (Apr 26, 2016)

E collars are not allowed in Germany. So, normaly I don´t have to think about it. I would not use an e collar in that situation. I would be afraid that the dog connects the pain he feels with the people you meet. The result could be that the dog starts to be aggressiv against strangers. That has been my first thought. The same with the prong collar.


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## shakariah (May 5, 2016)

So how about some alternative suggestions.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

shakariah said:


> So how about some alternative suggestions.


Train you dog to loose leash walk. There are tons of videos on Youtube on how to do this using a variety of effective methods that don't involve a prong or e collar. Remember, it probably took months for you dog to learn to pull on a leash, be fair and don't look to fix this behavior overnight. 

Don't let people interact with her unless she is sitting although I am not sure why you are letting her interact with strangers. One bad encounter can take a lot of fixing.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

I would teach her to heel. Does she really know what you want? Are you sure? Then when I knew that she knows what a heel is, I would put her on a prong and work the heel in many situations. Get a trainer to help you use the prong. You don't want to nag her but you don't want to over do corrections either. You also need to pay attention to timing of any corrections. This is where a trainer can really help. Then I would teach her to sit any time we encountered new people. Over and over, sit and have the people ignore her. Reward good behavior. Then use the prong to enforce it once you are certain she knows what is expected of her. Do this over and over in many situations. Teach it, proof it, enforce it. Be clear, use few words, and don't be angry, just consistent.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

shakariah said:


> So how about some alternative suggestions.


Oh well since you asked for specifics. 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7837361-post12.html

For the jumping thing ... lots of ways to stop that ... hand in the face before the dog jumps, stepping on the leash, a Bonker or the "Knee" thing ... but for most people ... these days .. I just recommend a "Pet Convincer" and call it a day. Detail are in that link.

See the link on "New Dog a Challenge" lots of info there and the link on "Fearful or Crazy" has info on Sit on The Dog and The Place Command. 

And for a broad overview on the walk thing ... which is best taught "first" in a distraction free environment ... see here.:

Slip Lead leash - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums


.. my focus" was on my tool of choice a Slip Lead Leash but things change. You may or may not need all of it but that is what getting it right looks like .. in my view. Welcome aboard.


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## der-schweinestall (Apr 26, 2016)

shakariah said:


> So how about some alternative suggestions.


 
It's hard for me to write this in English, but I'll try it. Strangers should be uninteresting for your dog. First, practice at home with people you know. Take your dog on the leash, take your dog to your left or right side, go forward with your dog to the well-known person, stand at a distance to the person, tell your dog to sit and there he has to sit, he has to freeze. Go 1-2 steps forward without your dog, but hold the leash in your Hand, your dog has still to sit and then say hello to the person , your dog has to sit, if he is standing up, tell him to sit again ..... he has to sit whatever happens, if that is working go back to your dog stand next to the dog and go against the dog and take him with you, away from the person and don´t let the dog get in contact with the person. If that works for 100 % you can start practiceing with strangers. That´s the way I train with our dogs. They do not care about strangers.

It would be so much easier to write in German.:blush: Hopefully you know what I mean


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

The following is an excellent suggestion. I would add a food reward for the sit and make sure the person helping you, even once you work with "strangers", is totally passive and ignores the dog. 

Do not hit the dog or use the knee since, one, you could injure the dog with the latter and, two, you would not want a stranger or anyone else, for that matter, doing this to your dog. 




der-schweinestall said:


> It's hard for me to write this in English, but I'll try it. Strangers should be uninteresting for your dog. First, practice at home with people you know. Take your dog on the leash, take your dog to your left or right side, go forward with your dog to the well-known person, stand at a distance to the person, tell your dog to sit and there he has to sit, he has to freeze. Go 1-2 steps forward without your dog, but hold the leash in your Hand, your dog has still to sit and then say hello to the person , your dog has to sit, if he is standing up, tell him to sit again ..... he has to sit whatever happens, if that is working go back to your dog stand next to the dog and go against the dog and take him with you, away from the person and don´t let the dog get in contact with the person. If that works for 100 % you can start practiceing with strangers. That´s the way I train with our dogs. They do not care about strangers.
> 
> It would be so much easier to write in German.:blush: Hopefully you know what I mean


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

der-schweinestall said:


> It's hard for me to write this in English, but I'll try it. Strangers should be uninteresting for your dog. First, practice at home with people you know. Take your dog on the leash, take your dog to your left or right side, go forward with your dog to the well-known person, stand at a distance to the person, tell your dog to sit and there he has to sit, he has to freeze. Go 1-2 steps forward without your dog, but hold the leash in your Hand, your dog has still to sit and then say hello to the person , your dog has to sit, if he is standing up, tell him to sit again ..... he has to sit whatever happens, if that is working go back to your dog stand next to the dog and go against the dog and take him with you, away from the person and don´t let the dog get in contact with the person. If that works for 100 % you can start practiceing with strangers. That´s the way I train with our dogs. They do not care about strangers.
> 
> It would be so much easier to write in German.:blush: Hopefully you know what I mean


you did well there is google translate if you need it-love google


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## Waldi (Jun 14, 2013)

shakariah said:


> She pulls when walking and jumping when greeting people. Wanted to use e collar on vibrate only as deturrant for those behaviord


I have female GS and she was a big puller, hard to control for my wife. After research, we decided to use EZ harness for walks, and this was perfect solution. No need for chock or prong collar. We did buy electronic collar for training to stop barking as she was getting very excited starting walk and would back a lot. Never used shock option, but audible alert. GS are smart dog, we used only for a week and after that, we would only put collar on if needed and did not even bring controller with us, as she would keep quiet. If we go for walks, we still use EZ harness and it is easy to control her by my wife who is not that strong. Try either EZ or harness that has front leash attachment loop, or might combine this with e-collar. Stay away from one that cause physical pain. GS are very intelligent and quick learners, need to use right combination of tools to achieve right response. Good luck.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

lhczth said:


> The following is an excellent suggestion. I would add a food reward for the sit and make sure the person helping you, even once you work with "strangers", is totally passive and ignores the dog.
> 
> Do not hit the dog or use the knee since, one, you could injure the dog with the latter and, two, you would not want a stranger or anyone else, for that matter, doing this to your dog.


Aw gezz ... just becasue "one does not like a given "technique" does not make it "automatically" abusive or harmful???

Dog comes up, my knee comes up ... dog bangs into my knee on it's way down, usually the dog is thrown off balance ... well that was unpleasant (must be what they think???) Once or twice and they "figure it out" usually my friends and neighbors untrained dogs ... will "Sit" to greet "me." I never say a word and certainly ... don't have a pocketful of treats??? The dogs "offer the sit" works out fine. 

Nonetheless ... my observations from having done this since 2001???* It's not an easy skill to master or transfer* (to your point.) But it's not up to strangers to train ones dog in any case?? And "apparently" it's not a lesson that is transferred by osmosis (for the dog) unto others?? A given dog won't jump on me, but they will still jump on others??

But the "knee thing" is only one technique out of many to stop jumping ... "USOCDT" Ultimate School of Combat Dog Training, I suppose?? But if I have an hour to walk a rescue ... I'm walking that rescue. I don't have time to screw around. I prefer "simple direct and to the point" are you done here dog?? Good ... let's go. But yes ... sigh, they still jump and pull for "others" when I hand them back to there "regular handlers." So yeah there is that.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Chip here's something to consider.If the point is to teach the dog never to jump on anyone your knee method isn't working the way you ultimately want it to.Teaching a more acceptable greeting behavior would be a better strategy wouldn't it?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Having seen the results of a badly timed knee, I have just found better ways to train in the last 33 years.  

The dog being thrown off balance can be dangerous depending on the footing and the position of the back legs as the dog hits the knee. We stopped recommending this method many years ago because MOST people don't have the right timing. 




Chip18 said:


> Aw gezz ... just becasue "one does not like a given "technique" does not make it "automatically" abusive or harmful???
> 
> Dog comes up, my knee comes up ... dog bangs into my knee on it's way down, usually the dog is thrown off balance ... well that was unpleasant (must be what they think???) Once or twice and they "figure it out" usually my friends and neighbors untrained dogs ... will "Sit" to greet "me." I never say a word and certainly ... don't have a pocketful of treats??? The dogs "offer the sit" works out fine.
> 
> ...


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

lhczth said:


> Having seen the results of a badly timed knee, I have just found better ways to train in the last 33 years.
> 
> The dog being thrown off balance can be dangerous depending on the footing and the position of the back legs as the dog hits the knee. We stopped recommending this method many years ago because MOST people don't have the right timing.


LOL ... *"most people" and "33 years??"* I'm impressed ... most likely had you stated that "also." I'd have not replied. 


Boxers are "agile" (that's how I found) it not a transferable skill, to the well ... "clumsy and awkward." And Pity's tend to be short and uh ... stout. I "tried" to instruct my rather "large awkward" friend" to use the "knee thing" with my ... "Boxer" And while quite entertaining for me to observe .... it was a complete waste of time ... "zero chance" of him injuring my "Boxer."  

But we are good on this "point" thanks for the "clarification."


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Aw gezz ... just becasue "one does not like a given "technique" does not make it "automatically" abusive or harmful???
> 
> Dog comes up, my knee comes up ... dog bangs into my knee on it's way down, usually the dog is thrown off balance ... well that was unpleasant (must be what they think???) Once or twice and they "figure it out" usually my friends and neighbors untrained dogs ... will "Sit" to greet "me." I never say a word and certainly ... don't have a pocketful of treats??? The dogs "offer the sit" works out fine.
> 
> ...


Take a look at some canine anatomy diagrams of the forequarters. Skeletal and nerve diagrams especially. 

The post sternum area is not a place for hard physical contact. The areas immediately around the areas are not either.

Yes. Even the weight of the dog coming down on its own would be considered 'hard'. 

You catch the dog's armpit on his way down and you can easily cause a brachial plexus avulsion. Leaving the dog with limited use of his forelimb. Recovery from which can take 6 mos to a year and require surgery to repair. 

Not worth the risk when there are so many other ways to teach a dog not to jump IMO


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

voodoolamb said:


> Take a look at some canine anatomy diagrams of the forequarters. Skeletal and nerve diagrams especially.
> 
> The post sternum area is not a place for hard physical contact. The areas immediately around the areas are not either.
> 
> ...


Well stated. Using blunt force is not a good way to teach a dog.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Sigh ... no need to man the barricades folks, I merely mentioned the "Knee thing" becasue it's what I do. "lhczth" ... "clarified" the "problems" with the knee thing" to my satisfaction without going to "extreme" examples.

The "knee thing" as I stated is one approach out of many ... just becasue "something" does not get "mentioned here" does not mean it does not exist and that people won't find and try it?? I learned of it from a "Book" many years ago if anyone remembers those?? 

It's worked out fine for "me" ... ever since. And as they say ...* "No Animals were "ever" harmed in the execute of this technique."
*Still ... in the "Real World" I visit people with seriously out of control, jumping untrained dogs. I use the "Knee Thing" and the dogs owners "see nothing untoward??" And when I go back ... those dogs don't jump on me ... they "Sit Politely" and wait for my attention. That is not a "behaviour" I trained ... as they are not my dogs ... but that is what they do for "me." 

So ... to the "nay sayers" ... I'll throw it back at you. So ... it's not your dog but your "ignorant" dog owning friend/neighbor ... the dog jumps on "everyone!" I don't visit dog owning friends and neighbors with tools ... or treats?? It's not my dog to "train." But I will not be treated as a "Toy" either! I'm good myself those dogs don't jump on "me" ... but what are "you" (in general) going to do under those circumstances???


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Sigh ... no need to man the barricades folks, I merely mentioned the "Knee thing" becasue it's what I do. "lhczth" ... "clarified" the "problems" with the knee thing" to my satisfaction without going to "extreme" examples.
> 
> The "knee thing" as I stated is one approach out of many ... just becasue "something" does not get "mentioned here" does not mean it does not exist and that people won't find and try it?? I learned of it from a "Book" many years ago if anyone remembers those??
> 
> ...


It wasn't for "your" satisfaction. Just because you are comfortable with putting your pet's at risk for injury for training's sake doesn't mean others are. I think it's only fair that anyone who stumbles across this thread have as much information on the practice as possible. Including the risks so they may make an informed decision.

I shared what a trusted vet told me many years ago - back when books roamed the land. I asked him about it after overhearing him tell off a guy who suggest the vet use the technique if his dog tried to jump on the Dr. It's stuck with me ever since, and now that I have been further educated on dog anatomy, I can see the mechanics behind it. I simply suggest anyone with interest in this "technique" take a few minutes to familiarise themselves with how dogs are put together in that area and use some common sense.

I suspect the owners who see nothing wrong with you doing it to their dogs would feel differently if an accident were to happen and their dog does end up hurt. 

It "seems" like such a harmless practice, most don't give it a second thought. But the risk of injury is there. It small but there. You could probably knee every dog you encounter the rest of your life and not cause serious injury. But maybe you will get unlucky on the next one.

Hey. Problem solved. The dog certainly won't be jumping up anymore...

Anywho...I'd rather get jumped on then hurt a dog. 

However, I have found with "friends" honesty works. I explain I do not like being jumped on and ask them to have their dog leashed or put up. 

There is no reason I "have" to interact with an out of control dog.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

voodoolamb said:


> It wasn't for "your" satisfaction. Just because you are comfortable with putting your pet's at risk for injury for training's sake doesn't mean others are. I think it's only fair that anyone who stumbles across this thread have as much information on the practice as possible. Including the risks so they may make an informed decision.
> 
> I shared what a trusted vet told me many years ago - back when books roamed the land. I asked him about it after overhearing him tell off a guy who suggest the vet use the technique if his dog tried to jump on the Dr. It's stuck with me ever since, and now that I have been further educated on dog anatomy, I can see the mechanics behind it. I simply suggest anyone with interest in this "technique" take a few minutes to familiarise themselves with how dogs are put together in that area and use some common sense.
> 
> ...


I don't see why there has to be a battle every time alternative methods of training are discussed. The more tools in one's toolbox, hopefully the better one is equipped to deal with a variety of dogs. If one theory of training puts a dog at risk, endangers innocent victims or increases an owners liability, then absolutely it should be pointed out and discussed. No where is it carved in stone that there is only one method of training that should be used and no where is it carved in stone that one trainers methods are the only ones.


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## Pan_GSD (Oct 2, 2016)

voodoolamb said:


> You catch the dog's armpit on his way down and you can easily cause a brachial plexus avulsion. Leaving the dog with limited use of his forelimb. Recovery from which can take 6 mos to a year and require surgery to repair.
> 
> Not worth the risk when there are so many other ways to teach a dog not to jump IMO


question,

my dog jumps on me when i wake up in the morning to greet me, or when i call him to me from a park he will jump into my arms

i catch him on the chest, sometimes under the armpit, so he can land softly

this can cause injury?

would appreciate it if you could elaborate


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Pan_GSD said:


> question,
> 
> my dog jumps on me when i wake up in the morning to greet me, or when i call him to me from a park he will jump into my arms
> 
> ...


When the front leg is suddenly pulled away from the body, there is a risk of nerve damage to the brachial plexus. 

It most commonly happens when when there is direct trauma to the shoulder, if the dog does a "split" on a slipper floor or ice, if the dog gets lifted or grabbed incorrectly, or if the leg gets caught up on something (My concern with kneeing - the leg goes on one side and the body goes on the other, the force of gravity may be enough to cause damage) etc. Just imagine what would happen if your arm got pushed the "wrong way"

There is probably nothing wrong with you "catching" him, but if one of you were to slip up, a bad catch, weird wiggle on his part... there may be a risk of injury. But that can be said about almost everything in life. 

This is a brachial plexus avulsion





It can take a long time to recover from, if they recover from it, often the dog has to wear a leg brace, there are surgery options to try to repair some of the damage, but it is still fairly common to amputate the leg in severe cases.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

voodoolamb said:


> It wasn't for "your" satisfaction. Just because you are comfortable with putting your pet's at risk for injury for training's sake doesn't mean others are. I think it's only fair that anyone who stumbles across this thread have as much information on the practice as possible. Including the risks so they may make an informed decision.
> 
> I shared what a trusted vet told me many years ago - back when books roamed the land. I asked him about it after overhearing him tell off a guy who suggest the vet use the technique if his dog tried to jump on the Dr. It's stuck with me ever since, and now that I have been further educated on dog anatomy, I can see the mechanics behind it. I simply suggest anyone with interest in this "technique" take a few minutes to familiarise themselves with how dogs are put together in that area and use some common sense.
> 
> ...


And round and round we go?? You're certainly not going to get "objection" from me about putting information out "here." 

Still the predisposition by those that "don't/can't/won't" do the knee thing, is that it "automatically" hurts and injuries dogs?? Yess and on "rare" occasions ... the NHP informs me that "speed" kills. Pretty sure the "Wright Brothers were told ... man can't fly and I can prove it??

So ... yet again ... "I'm that guy." The "conscience" here is "clearly" for the "unskilled" don't do the "Knee Thing." Fine no problem ... but when it comes down to saying it's "dangerous and harms dogs??" Most likely that particular argument carries more weight with those who can't than those who can??? 

Sorry "no one can tell "me" I can't do something I do all the time?? And my "challenge" for other people's "jumping dogs still stands,* "no tools no treats" ... what would you do???* It seems your choice is to get jumped on our don't go?? In the "Real World" some of us have to deal with the consequences of others people's "ill" trained dogs. My neighbor who has one of those ill trained "Beast" too much I refer ... could not breath "chronic lung failure." When he had a crisis ... he did not call 911 ... he called "me" becasue of his dog! He understood that I had "zero" issues with his untrained jumping 90 lb Boxer/APBT. And of course ... he was correct. I put both his dogs in the back yard for him and I called 911 from his place ... worked out fine. 

And in anycase ... "vets" are not dog trainers ... but that's another topic I suppose.


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## Pan_GSD (Oct 2, 2016)

that video is hard to watch

when i first came to this forum, there was an article someone posted about wooden floors being a factor in causing dysplasia in dogs
my dog does "splits" on the floors since its slippery
i have immediately stopped throwing balls inside the house since i read that article, and even bought rubber dog boots but they won't stay on, not to mention uncomfortable for my dog, so i gave up on that idea

it's sad that you get to think this is a strong, sturdy breed, but can be so weak and fragile at the same time...


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

voodoolamb said:


> When the front leg is suddenly pulled away from the body, there is a risk of nerve damage to the brachial plexus.
> 
> It most commonly happens when when there is direct trauma to the shoulder, if the dog does a "split" on a slipper floor or ice, if the dog gets lifted or grabbed incorrectly, or if the leg gets caught up on something (My concern with kneeing - the leg goes on one side and the body goes on the other, the force of gravity may be enough to cause damage) etc. Just imagine what would happen if your arm got pushed the "wrong way"
> 
> ...


That looks nasty!


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> And in anycase ... "vets" are not dog trainers ... but that's another topic I suppose.


No, but vets understand anatomy and injuries better than trainers.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> That looks nasty!


Oh yeah. It is. The rescue I worked with had a blue tick **** hound come in with the same injury once. Most likely form getting hit by a car. They named him hub cap. Ended up amputating it because he was chewing it fierce. He knew something was wrong with his leg but had no feeling in it so it got yucky quick. 

I guess that's the silver lining it isn't a painful condition for the dog.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

voodoolamb said:


> Oh yeah. It is. The rescue I worked with had a blue tick **** hound come in with the same injury once. Most likely form getting hit by a car. They named him hub cap. Ended up amputating it because he was chewing it fierce. He knew something was wrong with his leg but had no feeling in it so it got yucky quick.
> 
> I guess that's the silver lining it isn't a painful condition for the dog.


I knew you could do damage kneeing a dog and it is not recommended but I never knew it could be that bad. Makes me rethink a lot of things I see my dogs do that might cause similar damage.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I knew you could do damage kneeing a dog and it is not recommended but I never knew it could be that bad. Makes me rethink a lot of things I see my dogs do that might cause similar damage.


Long odds I'm sure. But physiology and physics can't be changed.


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## Richmond Custodio (Jan 28, 2017)

In my honest opinion, I have used a lot of techniques to train mine including e collar with vibrate, prong, and choke. There's a ton of ways to teach this. An e collar would do as well. You treat them like a leash. When they do something you don't like, you shock or vibrate them. The only thing is that you should set up the e collar properly or you can damage your dog big time. I've seen some dogs that look flat out depressed because it's too much for them. Choke and prong would be a much better alternative but an e collar will give faster results if used correctly. I use my e collar to train him this when I don't have a leash available. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

I rarely have other dogs jump on me and I train and work with a lot of highly driven and at times unruly dogs. I also would not "knee" one of my dogs and absolutely would not do that to a strangers, colleagues or client's dog. If a friend or stranger kneed my sweet female GSD we would have a big issue. It is my job as a responsible owner to prevent her from being able to jump on people. My male dogs will not jump on people and kneeing them would cause a very undesirable response from either of them. 

This is an internet forum and people need to be very careful in the advice they give to other dog owners perusing the "net." Advocating a training technique, that may have worked for one person may cause another to injure a dog. Again, I have found found the need to "knee" a jumping dog. I simply reward the dog with praise and affectionate when it is calm and not jumping. Most dogs simply want attention and providing it when the dog is sitting or standing next to me is generally enough to get a positive response.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Correction:
I have NEVER found the need to knee a dog for jumping on me. Especially, with the dogs I am around on a regular basis. It would certainly mean getting bit in the thigh unit or chest. 

I would do it to a strange dog either. Some dogs can switch from being friendly to aggression rather quickly. One must be very careful with a technique like that and it is not something I would do.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

dogma13 said:


> Chip here's something to consider.If the point is to teach the dog never to jump on anyone your knee method isn't working the way you ultimately want it to.Teaching a more acceptable greeting behavior would be a better strategy wouldn't it?


Well ...it's months late but I did not see this until now?? 

To your point and unsolicited ... I heard from JQP average "Boxer" mom and she also uses the "Knee, thing" and she discovered ... the exact same thing I did ... it stopped her dog from jumping on her but it was not transferable to others. But you know ... no general outrage and universal commendation to be found on "Boxerforum" from the masses??? Apparently "Boxers are not as fragile as GSd's??? 

But my suggestion was for the OP ... to stop there dog from jumping on them. Nowhere did I advocate that being "appropriate" for use by "strangers???" My postion on dogs and strangers is pretty clear I would imagine??? But to restate ... do "nothing dog." If one has a dog that can't do that or is prone to hopping on "Strangers" then that dog ought not to be meeting and greeting strangers ... until he can "Sit" politely and wait to be greeted to be "CLEAR." That is stated for clarification purposes ... as to the knee thing in general and LE,MWD and PPD which I don't do and have never encountered (OK well once) ... and the knee thing ... yeah ... I got more. 

But since those dogs are "NOT" the topic ... I'll :


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Better advice than "kneeing a dog" in the chest for some one with a dog that jumps on people would be to teach the dog "HI." You simply teach the dog to come up to you and touch your hand, while you say "Hi." The dog is rewarded for the touch with a treat and / or praise. Then you make the dog come up to you or a friend and touch the hand and sit. When the dog touches the hand and sits it gets rewarded with praise and or a treat. Very quickly the dog will learn that in order to get petted or get affection when the owner comes home or a friend comes over, the dog simply needs to sit when some one says "Hi." A very easy skill and behavior to teach. It avoids kneeing the dog in the chest or any other adverse techniques and the dog sits for praise and affection rather than jumping. Behaviors that are reinforced are likely to be repeated. 

Using an approach like this with proper repetitions, patience and reward changes the behavior pretty easily. This approach will not cause any injury, negative associations or get anyone bit. This is the approach I use when training dogs. I have the skill, ability and means to correct a dog effectively, I just think it is not necessary for training simple things. I also think it is not the best advice to offer to folks who are reading dog forums looking for help.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Slamdunc said:


> Better advice than "kneeing a dog" in the chest for some one with a dog that jumps on people would be to teach the dog "HI." You simply teach the dog to come up to you and touch your hand, while you say "Hi." The dog is rewarded for the touch with a treat and / or praise. Then you make the dog come up to you or a friend and touch the hand and sit. When the dog touches the hand and sits it gets rewarded with praise and or a treat. Very quickly the dog will learn that in order to get petted or get affection when the owner comes home or a friend comes over, the dog simply needs to sit when some one says "Hi." A very easy skill and behavior to teach. It avoids kneeing the dog in the chest or any other adverse techniques and the dog sits for praise and affection rather than jumping. Behaviors that are reinforced are likely to be repeated.
> 
> Using an approach like this with proper repetitions, patience and reward changes the behavior pretty easily. This approach will not cause any injury, negative associations or get anyone bit. This is the approach I use when training dogs. I have the skill, ability and means to correct a dog effectively, I just think it is not necessary for training simple things. I also think it is not the best advice to offer to folks who are reading dog forums looking for help.


Crap ... darn it!! I was not expecting ... this as a response??? Sigh ... but yes ... by and large I agree! The "knee thing" is clearly ... not a transferable skill! 

As it happens on "Boxerforum" I also offered the same advise ... cept I quoted Lou. And he did not add the "Hi" thing?? It was just simply a "Hand in the face" before the dog jumped! Simple enough and easily transferable. 

Still that should not be necessary for actual people friendly dogs. Such a dog ought to know how to behave when greeting people. Sit politely and wait to be greeted. But based on first hand experiance, if people have dogs that are not bite risk ... they tend to get a little lax and then when they have company ... they tend to end up with uh ... chaos ... a lack of discipline. Most people with no bite risk dog's, tend to think ... what's the problem.??? 

But ... I suppose ... the next time ... I'm faced with a jumper ... sigh ... instead of the knee thing ... I'll try the hand in the face approach. I'll not add "Hi" myself as I'm not big on conversion with dogs I deal with.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

I have no idea what the "hand in the face" approach is, but based on the source it's probably a technique I wouldn't be using.

It is not what I was recommending.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Slamdunc said:


> Better advice than "kneeing a dog" in the chest for some one with a dog that jumps on people would be to teach the dog "HI." You simply teach the dog to come up to you and touch your hand, while you say "Hi." The dog is rewarded for the touch with a treat and / or praise. Then you make the dog come up to you or a friend and touch the hand and sit. When the dog touches the hand and sits it gets rewarded with praise and or a treat. Very quickly the dog will learn that in order to get petted or get affection when the owner comes home or a friend comes over, the dog simply needs to sit when some one says "Hi."


Target training.  Easy to teach, with a myriad of possible uses.


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

I think knee to the chest is only to put the dog off balanced so it has to have all four on the ground, it's a reasonable approach. I prefer just taking a step toward the dog every time it jumps on me, but this is only what I do when a dog does not belong to me and I am just trying to gain some personal space. For my own dogs I simply kennel them until they relax, once the ambiance is calmer and they appear to have relaxed they get released. After awhile they seem to get it and have less desire to become hyper when guests arrive. I've mostly had larger dogs though and they tend to jump less.

Not every physical repercussion is painful, I don't think Chip is advocating beating your dog into submission.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

*Not every physical repercussion is painful, I don't think Chip is advocating beating your dog into submission.*

I don't think anyone said that Chip is advocating beating a dog into submission. However, some physical forms of corrections can do damage and can be painful. I'm sure there are many people that use the "knee to the chest" technique, that doesn't make it a good training technique. I have never had the need to knee a dog to stop it from jumping. I train pet dogs, working dogs and sport dogs and I've dealt with some unruly dogs and have never used that on a dog. Impulse control and capping go along way to getting desirable behaviors. Advocating or recommending putting a knee into a dog's chest is not something I am comfortable with. I think there were a couple of posters that showed what injuries can occur from this.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I didn't read every response but did anyone mention just using a leash? I was still in the pure positive camp when my girl was a puppy. She was pretty into jumping on people in greeting. I would just ask people to be patient and if her front feet started to leave the ground I would just promptly draw her away with the leash. She realized pretty quickly that if the front feet left the ground she lost access to the person and if she kept 4 on the floor she could go on greeting. She really likes people and the prospect of losing her greeting or getting to keep greeting was enough once she learned the rules.

I did not let her greet people offleash until she had proven she understood. If people came in my apartment I just put a leash on her real quick until we had gotten through it.

I would just tell people up front, she is learning not to jump and if she tries I'm going to take her away for a minute. If she didn't give me a better effort at staying all four down on the second try she lost her chance altogether. Lots of praising the right behavior too.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

The cowboysgirl, that is an excellent approach as well.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I had to leash Max for the longest time -even now -when friends /family come over I will have to leash him till he settles down - sit on the dog. When Max is completely calm - about to take a nap state of mind and settled I will take him off the leash. He will make his rounds to say hello but will be less excited and more in a calm state. I will also give him a ball as he can transfer his excitement into the ball has helped much with jumping. I have tried many things and this is the only thing that worked for us.


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

OP-I have no idea where this thread has gone, the last thing I read was about kneeing a dog in the chest to keep it 'off' which is a bad idea imo. To your post-I started with an e collar per my trainer at younger than 10 months which is also a bad idea imo unless your puppy definitely knows why it's being corrected or how to turn it off. I used it when my pup didn't understand what I wanted and it was unfair. Fortunately she is very resilient. You can teach 'with me' loose leash walking with a flat or pinch collar and change direction or pop the collar before your puppy hits the end of the line. As for your puppy jumping on ppl, teach her to sit or she gets no attention/reward. I still use an e collar for off leash obedience, it's a great tool, but at 20 months my pup understands why.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

ausdland said:


> OP-I have no idea where this thread has gone, the last thing I read was about kneeing a dog in the chest to keep it 'off' which is a bad idea imo.


Oh by and large ... that was me. >


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Aww well ... back again ... my "assumption" was the OP's dog jumped on them??? The knee thing was not a recommendation for introducing a dog to "strangers??" It was "suggested" as a way to stop the owner's dog from jumping on them, simply that. But then ... we get ... telling strangers to knee your dog, people kneeling protection trained dogs, dogs turning aggress because they can't jump on you and apparently clumsy awkward dogs being rushed off to the ER for twisted knee surgery ... whatever??? I guess the high desert air ... makes dogs less clumsy ... don't know??

But what I do know ... becasue I tried and have heard from others and they discovered what I did. The knee thing stops there dog from jumping on them but it does not stop there dog from jumping on others. And it is not an easily transferable skill. I can state that as fact becasue I tried, to instruct my friend and while quite entertaining to watch him try it with my Boxer ... it was a miserable fail. Maybe I need less awkward friends??? If people can't understand the difference betweening using there knee to* block *a dog and *driving there knee* into a dog's chest??? Then yes those people ought not be doing the "Knee" thing.

A dog that jumps on strangers is not ready to be meeting and greeting, strangers until he doesn't. Easily transferable to even the awkward is "The hand in the face" bit, go with "Slam's" explanation for that (I'll just stick with my terminology) anyone can do and it won't risk injury to "Roofus." That's most likely what the OP needed to know?? Nuff said.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Super simple: dog attempts to jump. You turn your back on him, tucking in your hands into your arm pits. Repeat if needed and reward as soon as he gets it. 
Kneeing a dog is just dumb and shows that you have not been caught up with the smarter training techniques. Some breeds are not pain sensitive and will just jump back for more fun. Think Labs and Pits.


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

wolfy dog said:


> Super simple: dog attempts to jump. You turn your back on him, tucking in your hands into your arm pits. Repeat if needed and reward as soon as he gets it.
> Kneeing a dog is just dumb and shows that you have not been caught up with the smarter training techniques. Some breeds are not pain sensitive and will just jump back for more fun. Think Labs and Pits.


That was unnecessarily rude toward Chip. Just sayin.

We're all here to give out advise, bringing others down isn't needed. We can say our part without referencing other's ideas, and even if we do we don't have to insinuate someone is unintelligent.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

wolfy dog said:


> Super simple: dog attempts to jump. You turn your back on him, tucking in your hands into your arm pits. Repeat if needed and reward as soon as he gets it.
> Kneeing a dog is just dumb and shows that you have not been caught up with the smarter training techniques. Some breeds are not pain sensitive and will just jump back for more fun. Think Labs and Pits.


Interesting.

I kneed my friend's lab. That dog is terrible from a manners perspective. I really don't care what I have to do to keep the jumping from happening. With my own dog, I'll do it right (turn away, back toward dog, immediately praise for four on the floor). For someone else's dog that they can't be bothered to teach basic manners? Don't care if it's dumb or mean or whatever.

The knee to the chest worked AMAZINGLY with that dog. She's a little dumb (her owners will even say so), but she learned quickly that she is NOT to jump on Tart. She skids to a halt and sits for me now.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

To add: If someone is actively trying to teach alternative behavior, or if the dog is a puppy, I don't knee their dog. I ask what they want me to do so my response is consistent with theirs.

The people to whom I refer are people who simply don't bother to train their dog in any form or teach her house manners. "Oh...sorry, she jumps" and don't do a thing about it. That's why I don't feel bad about using the knee so that I didn't get knocked over or scratched by the claws they don't bother to clip. It was very effective. It took about four times and she quit.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

This is a very simple problem to solve. All the cute tricks I learned here just reinforced misbehaving. I have a jumper. I got advice here last year to just turn my back. He began bouncing off my butt and it became a very fun game for him. I tried sidestepping so he would fall on his own, and he learned to lunge sideways. All ideas that sound workable but in practice, taught him even worse behaviors and reinforced them. Then I found a private trainer and he said never turn your back on a dog that is jumping on you. It's a good way to be knocked over or hurt and it teaches bad manners. Instead, we worked on a simple sit or down. Both work in all kinds of situations where you need your dog to be calm.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Slamdunc said:


> *Not every physical repercussion is painful, I don't think Chip is advocating beating your dog into submission.*
> 
> I don't think anyone said that Chip is advocating beating a dog into submission. However, some physical forms of corrections can do damage and can be painful. I'm sure there are many people that use the "knee to the chest" technique, that doesn't make it a good training technique. I have never had the need to knee a dog to stop it from jumping. I train pet dogs, working dogs and sport dogs and I've dealt with some unruly dogs and have never used that on a dog. Impulse control and capping go along way to getting desirable behaviors. Advocating or recommending putting a knee into a dog's chest is not something I am comfortable with. I think there were a couple of posters that showed what injuries can occur from this.


Yes. This.

There are soooo many ways to manage and train alternative behaviors for jumping. 

And the injuries that can be caused by kneeing are not minor injuries either. 

One bad slip and your dog could literally end up losing its leg. 

Why risk it?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Dracovich said:


> That was unnecessarily rude toward Chip. Just sayin.
> 
> We're all here to give out advise, bringing others down isn't needed. We can say our part without referencing other's ideas, and even if we do we don't have to insinuate someone is unintelligent.


Oh no sweat ... the only dog that ever bit me with intent, was an untrained dog I turned my back on. 

I got luck becasue it happened to be a Chi but he did get me in the back of the heel (ankle biter) is apparently a real thing?? I turned my back on him and he was ... all like ... "How you like me now!!" :surprise:

Fortunately ... I was wearing boots, that would have been a fairly embarrassing ER visit otherwise. I had ... too much contempt and not enough respect for that dog based on "Breed" and "Size." But if folks want to turn there backs on jumping dogs ... go for it. Most likely "Victoria" would approve???

https://positively.com/dog-behavior/nuisance-behaviors/jumping/


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

To clarify; I am not saying the person who knees is dumb; it is just a dumb way of training. Being uneducated doesn't make you dumb necessarily unless you are not willing to do better while having the capacity to learn.
By the way, how would you expect/make an out of control, jumping dog to sit on command?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

wolfy dog said:


> To clarify; I am not saying the person who knees is dumb; it is just a dumb way of training. Being uneducated doesn't make you dumb necessarily unless you are not willing to do better while having the capacity to learn.
> By the way, how would you expect/make an out of control, jumping dog to sit on command?


I know you were writing to someone else since I never mentioning kneeing, but I can tell you with mine reinforcing basic obedience worked better than anything else. My dogs like to scuffle at the door. I don't want them to, so they have to sit quietly, then they get permission to go out one at a time. The one who sits first and is the quietest gets to go out first. Sit should be a mandatory behavior. If I say Sit or Down, they have no options.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

LuvShepherds said:


> I know you were writing to someone else since I never mentioning kneeing, but I can tell you with mine reinforcing basic obedience worked better than anything else. My dogs like to scuffle at the door. I don't want them to, so they have to sit quietly, then they get permission to go out one at a time. The one who sits first and is the quietest gets to go out first. Sit should be a mandatory behavior. If I say Sit or Down, they have no options.


Your dogs are trained and obedient so I guess they don't jump either? I have always trained my dogs well and no one jumped unless I invited them to.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

wolfy dog said:


> To clarify; I am not saying the person who knees is dumb; it is just a dumb way of training. Being uneducated doesn't make you dumb necessarily unless you are not willing to do better while having the capacity to learn.
> By the way, how would you expect/make an out of control, jumping dog to sit on command?


Not Chip, but that method of stopping the behavior worked beautifully for me with that particular dog. The owners made it very clear they weren't training and didn't intend to. I knew the risks of kneeing the dog and went ahead anyway, because I figured it was likely to be the fastest way to show the dog that jumping on me was no fun. I didn't ever ask it for an alternate behavior, but when it got the message, it started coming to a stop in front of me and would sit for petting. It was immediately praised and patted for doing so. That was a year ago, and it now jumps all over everyone else, but not me.

I'm good with that. It worked for me.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

wolfy dog said:


> Your dogs are trained and obedient so I guess they don't jump either? I have always trained my dogs well and no one jumped unless I invited them to.


Mostly no. They are high energy and one is high drive. Sometimes they need a reminder. No one is perfect.


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

LuvShepherds said:


> Mostly no. They are high energy and one is high drive. Sometimes they need a reminder. No one is perfect.


I've always wondered about that question. A dog can always learn more, and most dogs are trained somewhat, whether it's just sit and no, and there's so many levels of training. My GSD knows the basics, but he doesn't always come when I call even though he knows what I'm asking. If someone were to ask me if my dog is trained I would say yes, he did complete basic obedience after all, but is he 100% reliable? Nope. Probably 80% responsive to commands, I have had ones I would say are 99% responsive, but still capable of doing something they know they shouldn't. I feel this just depends on the dog.
Lets just say my Pyrenees has both oars on the same side of the boat and as lovely as she is she will never be a trick dog or even responsive to commands beyond COME, and only if you say it with a happy voice LOL !


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

wolfy dog said:


> To clarify; I am not saying the person who knees is dumb; it is just a dumb way of training. Being uneducated doesn't make you dumb necessarily unless you are not willing to do better while having the capacity to learn.
> By the way, how would you expect/make an out of control, jumping dog to sit on command?


LOL ... so now I'm dumb also, OK ... then. I suppose ... I could say ... I also have a "BSIT" but ... that's more or less irrelevant to the topic at hand ... so ... I'll play. 

Bailiff, started a topic on "Sit" and I do belive, he said "Sit" was irrelevant at least unless "actually trained as an actual command?" I saw the thread and did not contribute becasue I already knew that ... yeah he's right! 

Speaking for myself and in my experiance ... the "modification" to the hand in the face thing with jumping dogs and adding "Hi" ... is one word more than I bother to say. I work with rescues also and I have a limited amount of time to screw around with a dog, so we are getting down to business ... right freaking now! So "Hi" is one step more than I ... am willing to bother with.

Sit ... is pretty much a useless behaviour as I've found ... I use a SLL and with known claimed pullers ... I've found. That with using a "SLL" snugged up high and snug. The dog will struggle for a bit ... stop and stand ... and at some point, stop ... look up at me and then ... "Sit Down!" I then say "OK" and off we go.

But I ... never say a word ... the dogs offered that behaviour! At that point ... I look down at the dog and say ... OK. And off we go ... pretty much issue free ... typically it takes "me" less than four minutes! And an onlooker ... would observe "nothing" untoward happening while "this" is going on! So adding the "Hi" bit ... is more time than I am willing to take, if the dog happens to be a jumper ... others can do as they see fit but I will use a knee. If the dog happens to be a jumper ... the knee thing says ... I'm not here to screw around ... get with the program dog ... and I don't say a word! As for actually training a "Sit" apparently that is fairly simple, for those who care ... and it looks like this. :






Apparently upward pressure on the leash and two fingers on the butt ... is your answer. Add the command "Sit" for those who care. I've never bothered myself as I am quite content with the dog doing "nothing" if I stop and talk. But you know ...toys, treat, eye focus ..etc, when dealing with dogs with people issues ... who am I say to say that does not work?? But what I can say is that I still have my dog with former people issues and "I" did none of that with my dog. And others with similar issues that followed "conventional wisdom" do not. And yes ... "Rocky" could "Sit" if required ... but I never bother.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

WateryTart said:


> Not Chip, but that method of stopping the behavior worked beautifully for me with that particular dog. The owners made it very clear they weren't training and didn't intend to. I knew the risks of kneeing the dog and went ahead anyway, because I figured it was likely to be the fastest way to show the dog that jumping on me was no fun. I didn't ever ask it for an alternate behavior, but when it got the message, it started coming to a stop in front of me and would sit for petting. It was immediately praised and patted for doing so. That was a year ago, and it now jumps all over everyone else, but not me.
> 
> I'm good with that. It worked for me.


LOL ... that is my neighbors untrained dog.


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