# Hectic behavoir



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

When describing dogs as being hectic, is this a "dictionary definition" use of the term? Can hectic behavoir be due to over excitement, a need for capping and maybe some maturity? Can two different dogs be described as hectic, but have different reasons behind it?


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I think of hectic as the opposite of being "clear-headed"? (definitions in the dog world are very tricky).


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Muskeg said:


> I think of hectic as the opposite of being "clear-headed"? (definitions in the dog world are very tricky).


Can a normally clear headed dog display hectic behavoir from a confusing handler?


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Nigel said:


> Can a normally clear headed dog display hectic behavoir from a confusing handler?


Absolutely, a confusing handler can cause all kinds of issues that aren't! Did this situation come up for you recently, or is this a more general quesrion?


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

sure. 

I have one dog that is hectic when I first come home because she wants to go out and play. My other might get hectic if he doesn't understand a new skill I am trying to teach and instead focuses on the food lure. I had one who's middle name was Hectic until she got older. She was originally a stray. I had one who was never hectic but did love to bust out the door and stretch her legs in a good run. But that was more playful than hectic. 

We are always trying to figure out how a dog thinks, and that is great. But to be honest, how often do we even understand how another human thinks? Always a work in progress.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I describe hectic behavior in dogs in a few ways. Here are a couple off the top of my head:

1) Almost ADDish, where the dog can't focus. 
2) Frantic movements, wasted energy 

Can a handler cause this? Yes, training styles, handlers, can cause this, likewise a good handler/trainer can clean this up to some extent. Maturity can also sometimes help. With some breeding focused on extreme drives (mal level) in the GSD, I think some younger GSD's are hectic until their brain can catch up with their drives.


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

I really like @mycobraracr's examples of hectic behavior, particularly the focus (which other posters seem to share) on the dog's _behavior _as opposed to the cause/source of the behavior (e.g., genetics or bad nerves).

To me, the importance of distinguishing between observed behavior ('hecticness') and underlying causes frees the handler to focus on managing the behavior in front of them --- which is a very good thing in my book. Otherwise, I think we risk not pushing for and achieving what we want from the animal because, at some level, we implicitly assume that the animal can't do whatever it is that the handler wants to do. That may well be true in some instances, where the handler's needs are sharply defined and quite demanding (e.g., LE/military/IPO), but may not be in others. 

Here's an example. When I got Rachel (the Wild Child) last year her behavior, by any standard, was hectic: frantic racing hither and yon, barking, barking, barking, dog and stranger reactivity, SA, and high in what I called her redecorating impulses. What I had to do was drain that energy, in a controlled setting, so that she would be calm enough (and I am using the phrase very loosely here) for me to begin teaching her the very behaviors that would reduce her impressive hectic displays. Self control, in other words. Since I got her from a local shelter as a 4/5 month old, I didn't know her background nor what basic training she made have had (tho it didn't seem to be much). So, I had to deal with _what was in front of me_. 

Is she perfect? No, we're both a work in progress. But she's come a considerable distance from where she started, delights in learning new stuff and has become a mannerly companion. 

And she's perfect for me. 

Aly


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Labradoodles and Goldendoodles are the epiphany of hectic to me.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I think of hectic behaviour as stemming from different root causes, depending on the situation and on the dog. 

Stress: Some dogs show hectic behaviour when stressed. They redirect their stress into behaviour. Both dogs with solid nerve and dogs with fearful temperament can show hectic behaviour under stress. 

Lack of self-control: usually stemming from from excitement, or inability to cap drive. Dogs that are solid in environmental nerve and protection training can show this weakness. Difficulty capping drive, being crazy when excited despite excellent obedience in other situations. Skilled training can teach a dog self-control in these situations, but some dogs are so "high" that even though they will obey a command, they still show their inability to control their behaviour by vocalizing (these are the typical screamers - God preserve me from ever owning a dog like this!). 

Confusion, mixed signals from handler: A form of stress. Dog is really really really wanting to do the right thing, but confusing and ineffective training causes for confusion. Dog throws a zillion behaviours into the shortest amount of time span, hoping that they will accidently hit on the required behaviour. 

A dog that is always hectic and cannot settle has a temperament flaw. If a dog shows hectic behaviour only under certain conditions, it might be learned behaviour, or created behaviour from the handler. 

There probably are more specifics to hectic behaviour than the above, but that is all I can think of right now.


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

ETA: Argh, can't get the quote function to work, so am using italics instead. Sorry about that. 

_I think of hectic behaviour as stemming from different root causes, depending on the situation and on the dog. _

Yes, and I believe that the behavior often looks the same despite differences in underlying contributors/causes. 

_Confusion, mixed signals from handler: A form of stress. Dog is really really really wanting to do the right thing, but confusing and ineffective training causes for confusion. Dog throws a zillion behaviours into the shortest amount of time span, hoping that they will accidently hit on the required behaviour. _

That is so true. Your description reminds me of a 'spastic' horse that my old trainer put me up on when I was young and stupid. (Wouldn't have gotten on the horse as an adult). All the trainer old me was "Just sit chill and, when you're ready, give one.clear.aid. Just the one. If he don't get it, go back to chill and try again." We did this _forever_ before the horse starting to relax and listen for clear, simple signals. For me, it was an important lesson in not allowing myself to get caught up in the animal's (or human's, for that matter) hectic behavior of the moment. 

Interesting discussion @Nigel, thanks for raising the question. 

Aly


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Aly said:


> ETA:
> That is so true. Your description reminds me of a 'spastic' horse that my old trainer put me up on when I was young and stupid. (Wouldn't have gotten on the horse as an adult). All the trainer old me was "Just sit chill and, when you're ready, give one.clear.aid. Just the one. If he don't get it, go back to chill and try again." We did this _forever_ before the horse starting to relax and listen for clear, simple signals. For me, it was an important lesson in not allowing myself to get caught up in the animal's (or human's, for that matter) hectic behavior of the moment.
> 
> 
> Aly


excellent example!


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

@Tim s adams my girl has been labeled as being hectic some time ago. She has an "excitable enthusiasm" that might be curbed a little by a better handler than myself. 

I recently witnessed another dog given the same description, however this dog looked a bit nervous along with being "restless". This is not the same behavoir I've seen in mine and it got me curious how others use the term. This was a young male and the owner was a bit overbearing I thought. I'm told I can be too soft on mine, so who knows...I'm sure both methods of handling can have their own pitfalls depending on the dog.

Watching other dogs I've seen some of the behaviors everyone is describing in their posts, I just never connected the dots. So is it safe to say leaking can tied into this with some dogs as well?


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Castlemaid said:


> I think of hectic behaviour as stemming from different root causes, depending on the situation and on the dog.
> 
> Stress: Some dogs show hectic behaviour when stressed. They redirect their stress into behaviour. Both dogs with solid nerve and dogs with fearful temperament can show hectic behaviour under stress.
> 
> ...


Haha, my WL male can scream at times, it's bad. I'm not sure I'd call him hectic though. It only happens under a couple circumstances and never when training.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

What is the difference between this and The Zoomies.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Castlemaid " A dog that is always hectic and cannot settle has a temperament flaw. If a dog shows hectic behaviour only under certain conditions, it might be learned behaviour, or created behaviour from the handler. "

This could be Inga, an ordinarily strong nerved bitch, not liking to be in PetSmart. http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/728498-country-dog-not-liking-town.html I myself do not like Petsmart. I don't like being in there with her. It is like a dog ****. I only go in there for bird food. After Inga is out of heat I will try her again. If she still hates it it is my fault. If she doesn't hate it it must be hormonal.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Nigel said:


> @Tim s adams my girl has been labeled as being hectic some time ago. She has an "excitable enthusiasm" that might be curbed a little by a better handler than myself.
> 
> I recently witnessed another dog given the same description, however this dog looked a bit nervous along with being "restless". This is not the same behavoir I've seen in mine and it got me curious how others use the term. This was a young male and the owner was a bit overbearing I thought. I'm told I can be too soft on mine, so who knows...I'm sure both methods of handling can have their own pitfalls depending on the dog.
> 
> Watching other dogs I've seen some of the behaviors everyone is describing in their posts, I just never connected the dots. So is it safe to say leaking can tied into this with some dogs as well?


Did I mention I hate labels? Well I do and this is why > So, who labeled your dog as hectic? And for what specific behavior? How old is the dog?

I don't participate in dog sports, but I would guess that, as @Castlemaid said, lack of self control in certain circumstances could be rectified through training (or maybe more accurately by desensitization). Probably not for all dogs, but for many. I honestly would not refer to that kind of behavior as hectic though. I've heard people refer to leaking as being nervy, but I don't like that label either because it presupposes that it cannot be changed, and I don't believe that! Most behavior can be changed, the question is if in your particular case with your particular dog, it's important enough to warrant the effort.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

> I've heard people refer to leaking as being nervy, but I don't like that label either because it presupposes that it cannot be changed,


This is were it is so hard to discuss dog temperament, because there is no set terminology that is used universally. For example the part above - sounds plausible and yes, labels seem to limit how we see our dogs. Saying a dog leaks drive is always used in a negative context, but honestly, some leaking is normal. 

Normal for a pup to bark and jump and whine waiting for the ball to be thrown. Normal (maybe) for some dogs to spin in their crates with excitement, waiting to come out. Normal for some dogs to whine with anticipation in the car when approaching a favorite outing spot, etc. Though much of this can be trained out - for example, Gryffon was a crate spinner. I wanted a dog that would wait calmly and patiently to be let out, so worked on stopping the spinning, and it worked (ask me how if you are interested). Another example is when swimming, he'll whine all the way out to retrieve the stick I threw, because he is frustrated at not being able to get to the stick faster. That is also leaking drive, but not the same as the leaking of drive in hectic dogs. 

When people talk about nervy, hectic dogs that leak drive, it is more in the context of work, of formal obedience, or protection work. I've seen dogs so "high" they whine through an entire 10 min obedience routine. Dogs that nip and bite in frustration show the negative leaking of drive. I've seen an on-line video of a dog barking NON-STOP through a SchH III OB routine, even barking with the Dumbbell in its mouth. Dogs in protection that can't settle and focus. A dog in protection training waiting for a command from the handler to engage the decoy, visibly shaking with the effort to control itself, rather than waiting with calm, focused, concentration all show the negative leaking of drive. 

The type of leaking in the above paragraph is very difficult to eradicate - something in the dog that just won't go into the "simmer" setting, and is alway on "boil". But again, it comes down to the core temperament of the dog. With Gryff, he used to shake with all his being expecting a bite in bite work when he was a young dog. We (the club members, our decoy) were able to stop that and get him calmer in the work, and cap the leaking. Other dogs, like the dog in the OB video that barked non-stop, are so hectic at core, that even years of training has had no effect on controlling the leaking of drive.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

@Tim s Adams: don't pay much attention to what non-gsd people say. For many pet dog trainers, anything a GSD does is, in their eyes, over-the-top, when in fact, they just have never seen a confident, energetic, drivey GSD. Many people are afraid GSDs: First time I went to a Rally-O trial, people were picking up their little dogs, pressing them against their chest and plastering themselves against the wall as Gryffon and I walked by (Gryff completely calm, ignoring everything, and focused on the course ahead). It was surreal.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Castlemaid said:


> Lack of self-control: usually stemming from from excitement, or inability to cap drive. Dogs that are solid in environmental nerve and protection training can show this weakness. Difficulty capping drive, being crazy when excited despite excellent obedience in other situations. Skilled training can teach a dog self-control in these situations, but some dogs are so "high" that even though they will obey a command, they still show their inability to control their behaviour by vocalizing (these are the typical screamers - God preserve me from ever owning a dog like this!).





Castlemaid said:


> Normal for a pup to bark and jump and whine waiting for the ball to be thrown. Normal (maybe) for some dogs to spin in their crates with excitement, waiting to come out. Normal for some dogs to whine with anticipation in the car when approaching a favorite outing spot, etc. Though much of this can be trained out - for example, Gryffon was a crate spinner. I wanted a dog that would wait calmly and patiently to be let out, so worked on stopping the spinning, and it worked (ask me how if you are interested). Another example is when swimming, he'll whine all the way out to retrieve the stick I threw, because he is frustrated at not being able to get to the stick faster. That is also leaking drive, but not the same as the leaking of drive in hectic dogs.


Halo.  :rofl: Actually, she leaked drive and "vocalized" (shrieked like a demented chimpanzee) in the flyball ring and at dock diving but not really anywhere else. Oh, and in the car on the way to the park to play ball and go swimming. Since it was so situational and she was very calm and quiet in the crate between races I never bothered to do anything about it. She has an excellent off switch and she just turned on then turned back off again. 

To me, it was much more annoying when dogs would be barking their heads off in their crates. Going nuts in the ring is just one of those flyball things. You get a bunch of high drive dogs in a very stimulating environment doing something they all love and it's going to happen. If they're too "up" to be able to focus and do their job, that's a problem. But if all that energy and enthusiasm is focused on running down the lane and getting the ball so they can run back and grab the tug to play with the handler, it's not really a problem. I think people who had never seen Halo outside of flyball would be surprised at how good she is around the house.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

> I've seen dogs so "high" they whine through an entire 10 min obedience routine. Dogs that nip and bite in frustration show the negative leaking of drive. I've seen an on-line video of a dog barking NON-STOP through a SchH III OB routine, even barking with the Dumbbell in its mouth. Dogs in protection that can't settle and focus. A dog in protection training waiting for a command from the handler to engage the decoy, visibly shaking with the effort to control itself, rather than waiting with calm, focused, concentration all show the negative leaking of drive.


Can or do dogs with these kinds of behaviors be awarded a Sch III title?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

tim_s_adams said:


> Can or do dogs with these kinds of behaviors be awarded a Sch III title?


Yes. They might loose points, and the judge would probably note the unwanted behaviours in his/her critique, but as long as the dog completes all exercises as written in the rule book, they can title. 

It also depends on the venue - a judge will be more forgiving with a first-time handler in a club trial than judging a National or Regional event, for example. 

And one more reason why titles aren't everything - seeing the dog in action will reveal a lot more.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Its considered faulty and there are deductions with every exercise, I don't know how much though. My dog leaked his tail off in obedience when we did his 3, but not in protection. Go figure, Lol. It was pretty much what Lucia said, the heeling sucked but his drive and focus on individual exercises like the retrieves etc, was enough to hold onto more then 70 points.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

That's my training mantra Steve: 70-70-80 is a PASS!!! Yes!!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I always point out what you said seeing the dogs. Two exact scores, for complete opposite reasons. See the dogs, hear the critique and it will make more sense.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I guess if one wanted to put a positive spin on it, if a dog leaks like that to help bleed off some of its excitement so it CAN stay focused on the work, it's actually a good thing >


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

tim_s_adams said:


> I guess if one wanted to put a positive spin on it, if a dog leaks like that to help bleed off some of its excitement so it CAN stay focused on the work, it's actually a good thing >


Lol, I'm not going to spin it. I loaded him up, and he leaked like a demon.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

steve strom said:


> lol, i'm not going to spin it. I loaded him up, and he leaked like a demon.


LOL! Did the critique mention the leaking, or just call him a Demon on the field? That has a nice ring to it as well. >


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

It was mentioned, right after "With a dog like this, you buckle up and hold on" Lol.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Castlemaid said:


> @Tim s Adams: don't pay much attention to what non-gsd people say. For many pet dog trainers, anything a GSD does is, in their eyes, over-the-top, when in fact, they just have never seen a confident, energetic, drivey GSD. Many people are afraid GSDs: First time I went to a Rally-O trial, people were picking up their little dogs, pressing them against their chest and plastering themselves against the wall as Gryffon and I walked by (Gryff completely calm, ignoring everything, and focused on the course ahead). It was surreal.


I took 3 sets of 8 week classes last year with Ranger my 5 yr old sable coatie WL male. He's been idle for sometime and I thought rally would be good for him. Ranger is....ok with other dogs for the most part and during all those classes we only had one "event" and he was not the instigator (a standard poodle was). The people and their dogs were friendly and I thought all went well overall.

Fast forward a couple months and my wife is taking one those same classes. At class my wife went to sit down with her dog Ollie (blk/red wgsl coatie)and a woman with a small dog got up and moved a couple seats down. My wife asked if Ollie was a problem and she answered "no, my dog had a bad experience with a different GSD from a previous class and now is afraid of gsds" my wife asked what the GSD looked like and who owned him? The woman described Ranger and I to a "T" so my wife asked what did this GSD do? and she replied " well.. nothing physically, he just had this look about him that scared my dog" my wife, lol'd

My wife owned up to "that guy" was her husband and Ranger was our dog. My wife then went on to play both sides of it when she got home and asked me what Ranger and I did to that poor woman and her dog.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

LOL, what a great story Nigel!


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

tim_s_adams said:


> Did I mention I hate labels? Well I do and this is why > So, who labeled your dog as hectic? And for what specific behavior? How old is the dog?
> 
> I don't participate in dog sports, but I would guess that, as @Castlemaid said, lack of self control in certain circumstances could be rectified through training (or maybe more accurately by desensitization). Probably not for all dogs, but for many. I honestly would not refer to that kind of behavior as hectic though. I've heard people refer to leaking as being nervy, but I don't like that label either because it presupposes that it cannot be changed, and I don't believe that! Most behavior can be changed, the question is if in your particular case with your particular dog, it's important enough to warrant the effort.


The trainer has a lot of experience with gsds, though her breed of choice was bouviers. She actually really liked Zoe and pointed out that her problems were coming from my end of the leash, which is accurate. Handling a dog is much tougher than I'd thought it would be. 

I went to this trainer to fix Zoe's "fronts". The problem developed after doing a lot of pivot work. Her fronts were good prior to the pivots, but since then she'd only come in at a 45 degree angle to my left. Attempting to fix it at home I confused her more and she would run the gamut of other commands she knows or as Castlemaid said "throwing behaviors". Trainer had both cleared up quickly. 
This has shown up again a couple times when training something new, only now I back off and rethink my approach before trying again. 

She's also gets excited and air snaps. Sometimes she rears up on her hind legs and air snaps as we move forward in heel. This may be more in line with leaking. She looks happy so I let this stuff go.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Nigel said:


> The trainer has a lot of experience with gsds, though her breed of choice was bouviers. She actually really liked Zoe and pointed out that her problems were coming from my end of the leash, which is accurate. Handling a dog is much tougher than I'd thought it would be.
> 
> I went to this trainer to fix Zoe's "fronts". The problem developed after doing a lot of pivot work. Her fronts were good prior to the pivots, but since then she'd only come in at a 45 degree angle to my left. Attempting to fix it at home I confused her more and she would run the gamut of other commands she knows or as Castlemaid said "throwing behaviors". Trainer had both cleared up quickly.
> This has shown up again a couple times when training something new, only now I back off and rethink my approach before trying again.
> ...


This post makes me laugh for several reasons! We've always called my girl the May West of the dog world because from a very early age she's always sasheyed backwards doing air snaps and smiling when she's told to back up. Clearly she doesn't want to back up, and it's been her way of showing that, which I've never tried to extinguish because it's too cute! At one year it's almost extinguished, but I miss it now because it was so adorable! 

That and I was having a similar problem with fronts. So I'm curious if your trainer used a method similar to mine to rectify the problem. I just used a wall as a barrier to build physical memory and it seems to have worked well. What did your trainer do? 

On another note, in another thread on the forum people were talking about needing to teach a 3 step backup in a healing position for rally. So, idiot that I am, I thought I'd try it with my pup tonight...She already knows backup, forward, stand, and heel. So my thought was that a 3 step backup shouldn't be too hard using known commands.

Took a little thinking to get the idea across, but initially when I tried, at one point my pup started throwing behaviors at me...which, of course, meant she was thoroughly confused, so it made me stop and re-think my approach. Trying a different tack she seemed to have gotten the idea pretty well with about 15 minutes of work. We'll see how well it sticks! But the idea that the air snapping or throwing behaviors is some how a genetic flaw is beyond me. IMHO these are indicators of great personality and a willingness on you puppy or dog's part to communicate. 

That being said, I see no reason why these idiosyncrasies couldn't be extinguished quickly if they're undesirable in competition...

I think you're being a bit too hard on yourself. Everyone has to at times step back and rethink an approach to training a thing. It goes with the territory!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

mycobraracr said:


> I describe hectic behavior in dogs in a few ways. Here are a couple off the top of my head:
> 
> 1) Almost ADDish, where the dog can't focus.
> 2) Frantic movements, wasted energy
> .


This would be my definition as well. It's a dog unable to cap their drive, due to genetics or handling, but in my experience mostly due to genetics. I don't think it's their drives that make them hectic. They could have great drives but their energy is hectic causing their lack of focus.

Leaking drive wastes energy. Mine only leaks prior to working protection if he has to wait more than 2 seconds. So now, he has to wait. And he has to do obedience. All while the helper is standing in the blind. It's extinguishing the leaking and by capping that, he's exploding into the blind.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

@Tim Trainer had me start with Zoe sitting at my left side, call for front while taking a small step back with my right foot leaving my left slightly extended just enough for Zoe to have to move around it and this worked well. It was a simple exercise we could do whenever. Calling Zoe to front from somewhere else at a distance involved correcting my body posture and hand signals. I was leaning a bit and pulling both hands toward myself only I let my left arm relax a little as she came in (my right arm has been broken and does not fully straighten). She had me stand square and keep my hands at the same level and that was it. It was all on me, not being hard on myself it's just a fact. 

I played several sports growing up, I played rec hockey well into my 30s. I always thought of myself as having good coordination and timing, however working with dogs has been an eye opener and sometimes humbling experience. It is fun and helps that I'm not super competitive about it, much like the IPO scores Lucia posted, I too am perfectly fine with good enough to pass.:smile2:


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

tim_s_adams said:


> That being said, I see no reason why these idiosyncrasies couldn't be extinguished quickly if they're undesirable in competition...


We always hope so Tim, but with some things you don't find out until you take the leash off and go for it. Give it a shot. I said this to someone else on a different thread you may have seen, but don't think of nerves or anything I'm saying about them as strictly a negative. Its not that absolute and specific. They're a piece, with good, bad, everything in relation to the total dog.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Anyone get concerned that capping might suppress a behavoir too much and "flatten" a dog out?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

That wouldn't be capping. That would be squishing.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Steve Strom said:


> That wouldn't be capping. That would be squishing.


and this is why I leave well enough alone and live with it. If it doesn't come out in the "wash" or normal training it stays.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Nigel said:


> Anyone get concerned that capping might suppress a behavoir too much and "flatten" a dog out?





Steve Strom said:


> That wouldn't be capping. That would be squishing.



If you had a soft dog that couldn't take a correction and unable to cap due to weak nerves. That dog shouldn't be in IPO anyways.

I would imagine that if I let mine lay there and leak while nailing him with electric as a correction then it would "flatten" him. 

Capping him, in the training context, is to stop him in a way that he has to control himself. They can't bark at the helper if you gave the Sit command. They can't lay there and whine if you make them fuss. There are corrections involved but not in a way to flatten them. But they WANT to do bark and bite so the control they have, the control they've been taught with less of a stimulant, is in play and they put themselves on simmer instead of boil.

Now go trial without any tools. That's where we lost the most points in our 1. I went to pick up after the long bite, Sit! Helper step Back. Fuss! And Seger said "hold my beer. I'm not done here"

That was him putting himself back on boil for a couple of reasons but primarily because he had never gone an entire routine without having the reward of slipped sleeve so he wasn't able to stay capped. The holes you have in training are found in trial.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

When you cap them, there's that expectation or anticipation of release to do something. Bite, chase, run, whatever. If you flatten that, you may end up with some conflicts, and to your thread here, hectic. You can have times for squishing, but I think you have to be careful and be able to bring it back to capping and that expectation of reward or whatever at some point, but that's getting beyond my skill set.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

For example, building on my post and Steve's.

You set up for the escape and the dog has to lay there ready to go. Controlling him/her self. You build up the time in that down so they don't break. Fuss! Platz! Go! The Go is the release for the reward of the chase and bite.

Your dog has done the escape, you've outed him and now he has to sit there - capped. You build that ability by rewarding. Out! Sit! and then as a reward - Bite.

Capping = Control.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

And when they can cap and explode into something like that, its a lot of fun.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Adrenalin. Like you being at the starting line waiting for the flag to wave.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> This would be my definition as well. It's a dog unable to cap their drive, due to genetics or handling, but in my experience mostly due to genetics. I don't think it's their drives that make them hectic. They could have great drives but their energy is hectic causing their lack of focus.
> 
> Leaking drive wastes energy. Mine only leaks prior to working protection if he has to wait more than 2 seconds. So now, he has to wait. And he has to do obedience. All while the helper is standing in the blind. It's extinguishing the leaking and by capping that, he's exploding into the blind.





Steve Strom said:


> When you cap them, there's that expectation or anticipation of release to do something. Bite, chase, run, whatever. If you flatten that, you may end up with some conflicts, and to your thread here, hectic. You can have times for squishing, but I think you have to be careful and be able to bring it back to capping and that expectation of reward or whatever at some point, but that's getting beyond my skill set.



ok, this makes sense. I think I may have misunderstood exactly what capping entails.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Watch a dog do a silent guard after an out. That's a good place to really see capping.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I also think that dogs and handlers feed off of each others energy. For me to have a genetically hectic dog would be a nightmare. I'm genetically hectic enough on my own. I need a clear headed dog with the ability to cap. 

My husband? He's Joe Cool and his energy compliments those type of dogs.

A SAR handler once told me that the energy you put in is the energy you get out. So, depending on the dog, the exercise, the desire for the level of capping will be different.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Steve Strom said:


> Watch a dog do a silent guard after an out. That's a good place to really see capping.


A friend of mine is supposed to take his dog for his 1 with some club on the west side of the state and I'm hoping to tag along. I have a ton of questions, probably gonna drive him nuts if this pans out.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Trying the bh and coming from ukc/akc rally stuff with courses only 2-3 minutes long. Should I be building up duration some how?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Nigel said:


> Trying the bh and coming from ukc/akc rally stuff with courses only 2-3 minutes long. Should I be building up duration some how?


Yes. And being able to repeat most of a pattern on and off leash. Know the routine so you don't have to think at all, and practice how you'll report in with another dog so you don't lose him at the beginning doing something he's never seen before. The long down is ob too, so don't just casually walk to the place on the field.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Nigel - if you PM me your email, I'll send you the instructions for the BH. A judges wife wrote it up. It tells you exactly what you have to do right down to taking off the leash


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Steve Strom said:


> Yes. And being able to repeat most of a pattern on and off leash. Know the routine so you don't have to think at all, and practice how you'*ll report in with another dog* so you don't lose him at the beginning doing something he's never seen before. The long down is ob too, so don't just casually walk to the place on the field.


I have not seen this yet, how does this work?


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

Another thing I did was practice the long down while another dog was either doing recalls or fetch.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

The judge is at the beginning or opening of the field. You heel out to him or her with another dog you're paired up with. You shake hands and report in. "Joe Smith with dog, reporting in for BH obedience" The other dog may heel right along with you, a few paces behind, or ahead, and they sit at a distance that kinda depends on the judge. They have some discretion there. But what you don't really want is to have a dog right behind you or right in front for the very first time on trial day. Its on leash, but that initial loss of attention can snowball.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

mspiker03 said:


> Another thing I did was practice the long down while another dog was either doing recalls or fetch.


I'm heading out in a bit to do this. My wife will work Ollie for distraction. A strange dog might be better though.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Nigel said:


> I'm heading out in a bit to do this. My wife will work Ollie for distraction. A strange dog might be better though.


But at least this lets him see the picture. Heel out together, sit them, talk a little, then heel him away to a spot to down him, sit him, remove the leash, have your wife wave to you and down him. Then leave him at some distance, and turn your back to him, and see how it goes and what you may need to work on.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Hey Nigel, keep in mind that a BH is only partially about obedience. Its also a temperament test. So if your losing your dog in the heeling, don't panic. Calmly encourage him. Don't be afraid to praise here and there. Its pass or fail, but the judge has a fair amount of discretion to see what he needs to see for that pass. You don't get carried away with that, but I'd rather give a little encouragement then have my dog 3' behind or sniffing the ground like a casual stroll at the park.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Steve Strom said:


> But at least this lets him see the picture. Heel out together, sit them, talk a little, then heel him away to a spot to down him, sit him, remove the leash, have your wife wave to you and down him. Then leave him at some distance, and turn your back to him, and see how it goes and what you may need to work on.


ok, we will try this. I'll get a different dog next time.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Nigel said:


> ok, we will try this. I'll get a different dog next time.


Make sure its a well behaved, hopefully indifferent dog. Don't make him worry about another dog until you've had a lot of reps showing him the overall picture. Add a judge first.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Steve Strom said:


> Hey Nigel, keep in mind that a BH is only partially about obedience. Its also a temperament test. So if your losing your dog in the heeling, don't panic. Calmly encourage him. Don't be afraid to praise here and there. Its pass or fail, but the judge has a fair amount of discretion to see what he needs to see for that pass. You don't get carried away with that, but I'd rather give a little encouragement then have my dog 3' behind or sniffing the ground like a casual stroll at the park.


So you can talk to your dog? I got the impression it was restricted to certain times? My wife is trailing soon (akc) and she's been talking a lot so maybe I'm getting what she said/what I've read mixed up.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

It technically is, to small praise between exercises. But, its only a BH, you aren't competing against anyone at that point. Its more about showing a good relationship between you and your stable dog to see if you should be allowed to go on in IPO. The judge has a little wiggle room as far as too much handler help. Don't do a big dance and throw a party, but I'd rather give an extra heel command and get dinged for saying "Good" quietly, then have my dog wander. Later on, those point losses can matter more.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

You can praise your dog between every exercise. Once your dog is back in basic position, you can pet htem on the head and praise them. Watch some of the videos of the higher levels. You'll see that moment being used to give signals to the dog for the next exercise. Stroke of an ear, pet on the side of the face to direct the focus forward, etc.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

I got four minutes, eleven seconds before she lifted up. Its a very busy intersection and she held tight with a dog hanging out of a car window barking like a fool, a dog/owner walking up to ask what we're doing, but a dude on the bike was too much and she stood. We did a few 2 minute warm ups before hand and some "ok" focused heeling intermixed. 

My wife asked about what my position would be during the long down?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

> My wife asked about what my position would be during the long down?


30 paces ahead, with your back to your dog, hands straight down your sides (i.e.: no hands behind your back, no hands in pockets.)

Also go out and practice long downs in rain, snow, hail, etc. I've been know to run outside in raging thunderstorms to practice long downs in the pouring rain.  Paid off too - it started hailing when Keeta did her OB1, but she never broke position.

Four minutes with distractions is a good start. Now that you know her limit, practice just within that, and gradually extend it. You NEVER want her to break on her own. Much better to cut it short but you are the one to release her. As you push for longer time, start by being closer to her, and re-enforcing the the down with extra commands, praise, etc. You can also give her treats partway during the down to reward the position. Walk up to her slowly and calmly and bend down to give her a treat. Re-enforce the down as you approach so she doesn't anticipate a release command. 

I usually aim for my dog to be able to do twice what the excercise requires: BH requires at least 10 minutes of focused OB - I train my dog to ensure 20 minutes of focused work. Long down is 10 to 15 minutes: my goal is at least 30 minutes of a long down. 
This way, when I go to trial, I KNOW my dog can do it, without any worries.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

In my club we have a dog that is very vocal, leaky and early on, his handler fed into his excitement level. It could have been thought of as being hectic. During that foundation, he possibly never learned to cap it but he learned to work through it.

Yet, he is a thinker, he does have control, even though he is barking, vocalizing and whining during obedience and protection. His handler has learned to be calm, and it has helped somewhat, but he is who he is. 
There is progress, yet, he will never be that dog that is quiet so creating conflict to keep him quiet isn't going to happen. Better to take a few points on that lack of control than to suppress him to the point of exploding. We compare it to having mice running in a wheel and his expression of vocalizing helps him to be NOT hectic. If he had to suppress it, he would explode.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Nigel said:


> I got four minutes, eleven seconds before she lifted up. Its a very busy intersection and she held tight with a dog hanging out of a car window barking like a fool, a dog/owner walking up to ask what we're doing, but a dude on the bike was too much and she stood. We did a few 2 minute warm ups before hand and some "ok" focused heeling intermixed.
> 
> My wife asked about what my position would be during the long down?



First, are you going in periodically and rewarding her? 

Second, don't wait until she breaks. 

Go in and reward. That rewarding will keep her looking forward at you and focused. The judge's want to see that. Also the reward frees her up some.

If you see a distraction, get in there and remind her to down. Reward her. Once she breaks, you have to give a correction of some kind even if it's just vocal. Don't put her in that position yet.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

onyx'girl said:


> In my club we have a dog that is very vocal, leaky and early on, his handler fed into his excitement level. It could have been thought of as being hectic. During that foundation, he possibly never learned to cap it but he learned to work through it.
> 
> Yet, he is a thinker, he does have control, even though he is barking, vocalizing and whining during obedience and protection. His handler has learned to be calm, and it has helped somewhat, but he is who he is.
> There is progress, yet, he will never be that dog that is quiet so creating conflict to keep him quiet isn't going to happen. Better to take a few points on that lack of control than to suppress him to the point of exploding. We compare it to having mice running in a wheel and his expression of vocalizing helps him to be NOT hectic. If he had to suppress it, he would explode.


Do you know the pedigree on this dog? I do agree with you that trying to quite the dog may cost more in the long run. A good, patient, calm handler can usually cap the dog and stop this leaking and vocalization. It comes down to teaching the dog that screaming, whining, etc will not get the dog any benefit. It takes a lot of time and a fair amount of work. If the dog is doing everything extremely well, I'd leave it alone. If it is a relatively young dog, I'd work on it. I had a dog like this years ago and would scream in obedience. It was my fault for letting it go for too long. I did HOT title the dog to a SchH 3, IPO 2 and she scored very well in all phases. High 90's in tracking and protection, low 90's in obedience. I decided that going for the extra 5 points was not worth it. Today, I might think differently and would definitely train differently.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Slamdunc said:


> Do you know the pedigree on this dog? I do agree with you that trying to quite the dog may cost more in the long run. A good, patient, calm handler can usually cap the dog and stop this leaking and vocalization. It comes down to teaching the dog that screaming, whining, etc will not get the dog any benefit. It takes a lot of time and a fair amount of work. If the dog is doing everything extremely well, I'd leave it alone. If it is a relatively young dog, I'd work on it. I had a dog like this years ago and would scream in obedience. It was my fault for letting it go for too long. I did HOT title the dog to a SchH 3, IPO 2 and she scored very well in all phases. High 90's in tracing and bite work, low 90's in obedience. I decided that going for the extra 5 points was not worth it. Today, I might think differently and would definitely train differently.


Yes I know the pedigree...dog is now 5 yrs old so mature and the foundation was set early on. We also train with a local IPO judge that has a dog very similar, he will also take the points instead of squashing the leaking. Had either dog had different foundation when very young, the leaking could possibly have been removed. I think both dogs will title, but get dinged for 'control' in both obedience and protection. I also think the handlers energy plays into it bigtime(handlers also agree)


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Out of curiosity would you mind PM'ng me the pedigree? I'm just curious as I had a dog that leaked and screamed and I think it had a genetic component to it. I'm curious to see what is back a few generations in the pedigree. I appreciate dogs with drive and verve for the work, even if they get noisey doing it.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> First, are you going in periodically and rewarding her?
> 
> Second, don't wait until she breaks.
> 
> ...


I was fairly sure during the two minute downs she'd hold position, she did so I returned, rewarded and moved to some heeling before repeating again. There were a couple times I had to verbally correct and signal her back down when I got around the three minute mark. On the times I corrected I kept her down for a little bit longer before going back to praise/reward. Last time around I waited until I saw her focus turn to the bike guy and so I called her to me as soon as she stood. She's never been a bike chaser so I should have corrected her, but my knee jerk reaction was call her in. My wife call out me on this as well.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Yeah don't call her to you. Put a 15' line on her for safety. Don't worry about duration so much as reward. Go in and reward her a lot. Then go longer between rewards. Sounds like you corrected her a lot. Why correct her for looking at the bike? It's natural for her to want to look. What you missed was a chance to really reward her for not breaking her down.

Don't break the down to heel and then go back to it. Just go in, reward, remind to down and walk away. Don't break to heel and restart. Just work the down. When you are done, be done. Let her think on it.

If you want to give her a chance to break the down, then reward with a ball. Ply play play and platz. Walk away. The thing with this is to make sure she does not break in anticipation of the ball. She can only break when you release her.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I always go to the dog in a platz...never ever reward by calling them to me. Recalls are very important, but if the dog is holding a platz position, then it is always rewarded in that position because we all know the dog will recall easily. If I work on recalls, it is throwing food or toy and calling to me to heir position.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> Yeah don't call her to you. Put a 15' line on her for safety. Don't worry about duration so much as reward. Go in and reward her a lot. Then go longer between rewards. Sounds like you corrected her a lot. Why correct her for looking at the bike? It's natural for her to want to look. What you missed was a chance to really reward her for not breaking her down.
> 
> Don't break the down to heel and then go back to it. Just go in, reward, remind to down and walk away. Don't break to heel and restart. Just work the down. When you are done, be done. Let her think on it.
> 
> If you want to give her a chance to break the down, then reward with a ball. Ply play play and platz. Walk away. The thing with this is to make sure she does not break in anticipation of the ball. She can only break when you release her.


I only corrected a couple times. No corrections for any of the 2 minute downs. We did 3 more downs for about 3 minutes each and I verbally corrected one time during the first, once during second, and none on the third. The last one at 4 minutes she stood up and didn't correct. Clear as mud right?


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Sound travels pretty far at 330am. fyi for any hectic/leaky dog owners out there thinking about pre-work training sessions.


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