# Calling the experts on Kira's fear. (video)



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Below are 3 videos.

The first video, is of Kira playing with her friend at her favorite dog park. It's a small park, designed for a few dogs. The dogs generally all get along well, and Kira plays with her select group of friends.

Here's the first video.... No problem at all.
Kira has a blast!





 


*Here's what concerns me:*

In this video, there's a GSD PUPPY. He's 8.5 months old, and licks everyone to death. He's a playful 65 pound mush, and wants to play with Kira in the worst way. His name is Bruno.

If Bruno is standing around,* Kira will go over to him*, and sniff. He'll lick her face, and visa-versa. He show's no aggression whatsoever. He's playful, and wants to* run, run, run*.

In THIS video, I was playing fetch with Kira. I had just thrown her ball. She picked it up, and saw that Bruno was waiting for her. Bruno wanted to chase her, as he had just finished doing with the other dogs (see third video below).
As soon as Bruno turned towards Kira, Kira ran and *yelped* for her life. Even though I laughed a bit, it was a nervous laugh for her. I knew that she was in no danger, and so did everyone else.

What do you think?





 

*Here's Bruno playing as he normally does:*

*



*


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I'm no expert, but I'll tell you what I see in all videos..The first one, the dog Kira is playing with looks like a big doofy boy/girl,,to me he's showing just that.

the 2nd video, Bruno is down in his "stalk" position,,now he may just wanna play, but I would say, he looks intimidating to Kira..heck I'd run to, if I had Bruno in his 'stalk/stare' zero ing in on me..

Third,,while he's playing, Bruno that is, he looks like a 'rough' player,,tail up, just going at things full boar..

I'm thinking Kira may be a tad intimidated by his size, his stature, just the rough vibes he may be giving off..You notice in the 3rd vid, I see her just come into camera range with the smaller dogs, and Bruno comes charging thru, she gets out of his way.

The first dog she was racing around with, you could tell she was very comfortable with him, the next two, unsure/uncomfortable with bruno..Kinda can't say I blame her, not sure she 'knows' how to take him


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## Frankly I'm Frank (Jan 2, 2012)

Exactly what Diane said. Bruno seems OK, he's just too much for Kira at this point.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I'm no expert, but I'll tell you what I see in all videos..The first one, the dog Kira is playing with looks like a big doofy boy/girl,,to me he's showing just that.
> 
> the 2nd video, Bruno is down in his "stalk" position,,now he may just wanna play, but I would say, he looks intimidating to Kira..heck I'd run to, if I had Bruno in his 'stalk/stare' zero ing in on me..
> 
> ...


As far as the "stalk" position, granted, it just happen to work out that way. He normally just chases. He was waiting for her, and regardless of his stance, the result would have been the same.

Your assessment is accurate. She is intimidated by him, but will go over to him, and maybe slap him with a paw, or nibble at his ear. As soon as he engages, she runs and cries.

If you watch the second video carefully, you'll see that Bruno backed off immediately.

I've seen this behavior with smaller dogs too. 
There was a small border collie there a few days ago. They were playing, Kira was fine. Then all of a sudden, the Border Collie wanted to chase her, and she screamed bloody murder.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Frankly I'm Frank said:


> Exactly what Diane said. Bruno seems OK, he's just too much for Kira at this point.


I can accept that.
Is this normal behavior for a 6 month old GS?

I see other puppies in there all the time. 
Geez... there were miniature dogs racing with Bruno in each video.

I really thought she was OK around other dogs.... Kira is terrified. I have concerns about this.


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## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

Bruno looks intimidating. Kira does not know what to do with that kind of energy and she does not want to challenge him in any way. I can't say I blame her. Imagine if you did not know the dog and he got into that position and zeroed in on you, I bet you would be nervous.


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## Frankly I'm Frank (Jan 2, 2012)

Anthony8858 said:


> As far as the "stalk" position, granted, it just happen to work out that way. He normally just chases. He was waiting for her, and regardless of his stance, the result would have been the same.
> 
> Your assessment is accurate. She is intimidated by him, but will go over to him, and maybe slap him with a paw, or nibble at his ear. As soon as he engages, she runs and cries.
> 
> ...


She is still a baby. She will probably quiet down with a little more maturity and confidence. She is still learning the rules of the game.
The stalking pose is a common part of play, at least it is in the group my dog plays with. They all do it to each other.


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## Rahrah (Oct 30, 2011)

That GSD rushed at her- I'd be afraid too!


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## chicagojosh (Jun 22, 2010)

sorry no advice, but i enjoyed the videos. watching dogs play is entertaining!


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## Rahrah (Oct 30, 2011)

Wanted to add that Fenrir does the same thing (if rushed upon) she doesn't know that she's not going to be attacked. (She's been rushed upon twice while been on a leash, from two unrestrained dogs- both attacked -separate incidences)

We don't go to dog parks- but do go to puppy obedience training- pups are close in age.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Anthony8858 said:


> Your assessment is accurate. She is intimidated by him, but will go over to him, and maybe slap him with a paw, or nibble at his ear. As soon as he engages, she runs and cries.


Vinca used to do the same thing when she was little. She'd grab a toy, and then dance around in front of another dog, tail high, taunting, as if saying "ha ha, I have a toy and you don't, wanna chase me?" and then she'd run around in big circles. As soon as the other dog would start to chase, she'd tuck her tail, drop the toy and yelp. Too funny to watch all this puppy "come and get me" bravado turn suddenly to "oh no, he's gonna GET me!"


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

The male GSD is stalking her, and yes she has every right to be afraid.
Not to mention, he's so intent that he redirects (maybe not the right word but) on a Pointer that interfered with his "stalking".
Perhaps that's how he plays but she probably thought he meant to harm her. And as others said, she's right to think that in light of the last incident where the other GSD beat her up.


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

She's a pup, he's an adult. He looked pretty intimidating charging up to her. He seems like a real nice fun dog but I think the intensity level is just too much for her, especially since she is still just a baby.


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

I agree with everybody else.

Is Bruno neutered? I find that many dogs, especially females, are intimidated by unneutered males, regardless of his intentions.


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## Marnie (Oct 11, 2011)

I'm a little surprised that you fault her behavior. Bruno is a big, intimidating dog and his posture is threatening. The first thing I picked up on was that when he started to move he swung around and the pointer yelped. No wonder your dog fled. I don't know anything about her history, but if she were mine, I would remove her from the dog park when Bruno or any other intimidating dogs were there. I would be working to build her confidence by letting her play with dogs she likes and does not feel threatened by. Always try to set your dog up for success and confidence building. Exposing her to scary things, especially at a young age, reinforce her fear. Your pup is a GSD, she has the couragel inside her somewhere. Help her get it back.

Bruno is exactly like my pup. He just wants to play but he is the playground bully. Your dog's fear is like a big target painted on her side. Every bully will go for her. Keep her leashed when the bullies are out and she will eventually regain her confidence.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

msvette2u said:


> The male GSD is stalking her, and yes she has every right to be afraid.
> Not to mention, he's so intent that he redirects (maybe not the right word but) on a Pointer that interfered with his "stalking".
> Perhaps that's how he plays but she probably thought he meant to harm her. And as others said, she's right to think that in light of the last incident where the other GSD beat her up.


I completely agree, Onyx is the same way. If she is out with my other two the dyamics are so different than when Karlo and Kacie are out alone, without Onyx and her bullying.
It is bullying, stalking, chasing behavior~ not play. Bruno probably has high prey drive and lives to chase, not really play. But from those short clips of him, I may be wrong. He reminds me so much of how Onyx acts. If she doesn't have a ball in her mouth she is nipping the others too. Though she has very high herding instincts, and will keep Kacie from coming towards the house or even inside when I call them.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Kira is a soft dog and is inhibited .
Look at the second video first. Bruno and the gang , have all come to an agreement that one of the GSH pointers ? the darker one - has assumed the role of the chasee and Bruno is "IT" in this tag and is the chaser . All the dogs understand this and chase the GSH pointer . The object is not to catch but to chase. Kira stands at the fringe looking . She could join in but lacks the confidence. Even the little lap dogs are chasers. For a brief moment the little lap dogs drift away from the chase and are involved with each other , close to Kira . She advances - it almost looks like she gives a quick mouth to the black and white , who does something and Kira scoots back to the person doing the video . Those two smaller dogs were not interested in her .

First video -- the Bruno has fixed eye contact on her but everything about his position is neutral . She is away at a distance frozen . A tight crouch on Bruno would have been predatory. A tail up would have been aggressive. What he is doing is - pointing to her "hey kid, yeah you" . Had she come forward I bet you he would have accommodated her and become the chased . Seen it many times with my own - all ages. Had she done a play bow or jumped it would have indicated , yeah , chase me , can't catch me . When the pointer distracts him the motion of the game starts - just when she decides to come in to you she is included in the chase -- but she runs yipping in fear . What happened after that when you cut the video.

I think that this was her moment to "belong" to the club.

See what Kira was seeing . She is way way over there. She looks back at you . YOU are standing quiet and stiff and focused . Bruno is standing focused . You would not know there were other dogs there till one of them gives Bruno a touch to his mid section and then suddenly the bunch is there and they start to run. That means that Kira also saw them , probably looking at her . No one breaking the ice . You could have given some signal - this is fun , you clap your hand and you move in a direction - say to your right , your dog will follow you in that direction. You held , she held , Bruno held . 
She needs to be taken out of a situation where she plays a victim role, because that will become her pattern. 
This is one of the reasons I don't like dog parks in general. The bullies get rewarded and that behaviour becomes conditioned . The meek play victim , the under dog and that becomes part of their behaviour mechanism.
I don't see Bruno as aggressive or unstable--- he looks like a pretty nice dog all around. Not one of the dogs in this park scenario were anything to be concerned about . All seemed well adjusted .
interesting thread .
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Lesley1905 (Aug 25, 2010)

Poor little girl!! I bet she will gain some confidence as she gets older. She's just a little peanut


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Lesley1905 said:


> Poor little girl!! I bet she will gain some confidence as she gets older. She's just a little peanut


That "little peanut" is six months old, and should be showing some signs of confidence by now.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Great read, Carmen!


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

carmspack said:


> Kira is a soft dog and is inhibited .
> Look at the second video first. Bruno and the gang , have all come to an agreement that one of the GSH pointers ? the darker one - has assumed the role of the chasee and Bruno is "IT" in this tag and is the chaser . All the dogs understand this and chase the GSH pointer . The object is not to catch but to chase. Kira stands at the fringe looking . She could join in but lacks the confidence. Even the little lap dogs are chasers. For a brief moment the little lap dogs drift away from the chase and are involved with each other , close to Kira . She advances - it almost looks like she gives a quick mouth to the black and white , who does something and Kira scoots back to the person doing the video . Those two smaller dogs were not interested in her .
> 
> First video -- the Bruno has fixed eye contact on her but everything about his position is neutral . She is away at a distance frozen . A tight crouch on Bruno would have been predatory. A tail up would have been aggressive. What he is doing is - pointing to her "hey kid, yeah you" . Had she come forward I bet you he would have accommodated her and become the chased . Seen it many times with my own - all ages. Had she done a play bow or jumped it would have indicated , yeah , chase me , can't catch me . When the pointer distracts him the motion of the game starts - just when she decides to come in to you she is included in the chase -- but she runs yipping in fear . What happened after that when you cut the video.
> ...


 
I really enjoy reading your posts, and how you analyze dogs and their behaviors..and why we get the outcomes we do..


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Anthony8858 said:


> That "little peanut" is six months old, and should be showing some signs of confidence by now.


That won't happen when she is in a place where she can't feel her power. I would try to get her with dogs in a more structured environment that she's comfortable with so her confidence grows. She'll be better off in the long run.


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## Marnie (Oct 11, 2011)

Anthony8858 said:


> That "little peanut" is six months old, and should be showing some signs of confidence by now.


What is your basis for saying that? I can't recall every hearing anyone say a six month old female must be fearless.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Anthony8858 said:


> That "little peanut" is six months old, and should be showing some signs of confidence by now.


Not if you set her up for failure. :help:


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

don't push your dog. she has a lot of growing to do.
find some calm dogs for her to play with. set up some
play dates with dogs that she plays well with. your dog
is only 6 months old, she'll toughen up and gain more confidence
as she gets older. 

i never take my dogs toys to the dog park for him to
play with. to me that's asking for trouble.



Anthony8858 said:


> That "little peanut" is six months old, and should be showing some signs of confidence by now.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

well no not a peanut . If you maintain and consider the dog as a juvenile then that is where they stay . That is an emotional cripple. 
Okay . I am surprised at how many people saw Bruno as a big old intimidating aggressive dog . He is just the polar opposite . A bit of a sweety. Who ever bred him, who ever raised him did a very very good job . Here is a very balanced dog with good social skills. Social skills.
He is not the only one chasing. Here we see beautiful pack dynamics and co-operation among the dogs. They are falling short of catching . The intent is the chase . If anyone of them wanted they could have caught the GSH pointer many times over . The whole pack could have pinned him. Look at the expression of the chased . He is having a thrill . 
You help a dog by being a role model. We don't know how Kira was handled from birth to Anthony's home. 
It is a real good idea for breeders to incorporate mild stresses - prestressors , little pressures, changes in voice and tone , showing the dog that you are harmless even when you are shouting , this helps the to dog adapt .
You know the old RoseAnne Barr show (brother of one of the writers is in Toronto) . There was a line where she was called in to her kids teacher for an interview . The teacher says "your kid barks" . RoseAnne gives her the steely eye and then loudly and coarsely says "we all bark".
Well that had me laughing . My home is not ruff and tumble - but I sure could relate that to the dogs.
Treat them like babies , not good . Treat them as delicate and fragile and they will be . So now when Anthony raises his voice and it could be a comment about some football team guy making a bad move , the dog feels the pressure, takes it personal and runs to the crate.

I would close the crate door. You put her in when you want to . If she runs , you bring her to you and then forget about her . This then is normal.

In the park I would have given her some signal that situation is normal -- because it was , there was no threat , no danger . 
Remember you are part of the team . 

There was too much static . The Kira pup needed some communication , what is happening what do I do. 
If she had play bowed or bounced forward in a tease I bet you anything Bruno would have accommodated her and let her chase him.
Look at the video where Kira has a brief visit with the two little white lap dogs - who are thick as thieves chasing along side with Bruno , chasing the GSH pointer . They are not victimized even though they are one third the size of most of the others.
Sorry , so , when Kira briefly visits them she is tentative . The moment one moves looking at her she scurrys back to Anthony . She is surprised . She did not handle that -- got over whelmed. 

Even when the little dogs split from the main chase , they whole gang goes ripping by and they don't focus on the white dogs , they don't even bother with Kira . There is a clear understanding that this is a game and a clear understanding on who is "in" and who plays what role. 
The GSH pointer , if it did not want to be chased would say so.
Reading a dog is important .
Carmen


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

carmspack said:


> It is a real good idea for breeders to incorporate mild stresses - prestressors , little pressures, changes in voice and tone , showing the dog that you are harmless even when you are shouting , this helps the to dog adapt .


Just wanted to interject, one easy way to do this when the pup is very little, is to leave the TV on for them. They hear all kinds of voices, all kinds of tones, from whispering to yelling, music, car crashes, explosions (depending on what channel you leave on) and they get accustomed to hearing all kinds of sounds. I always leave the TV on for pups, and even kittens. Usually on Animal Planet, or Discovery or something like that.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Freestep said:


> Just wanted to interject, one easy way to do this when the pup is very little, is to leave the TV on for them. They hear all kinds of voices, all kinds of tones, from whispering to yelling, music, car crashes, explosions (depending on what channel you leave on) and they get accustomed to hearing all kinds of sounds. I always leave the TV on for pups, and even kittens. Usually on *Animal Planet, or Discovery or something like* that.


Sorry for going off track, but once i came home and the radio preacher was giving my dog what for. LOL!


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Carmen, you are a gem. Please clone yourself so you have more time.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

yes . when my son was still at home he used to bring his friends over and they would be in the puppy room which was divided . The kids would open the gate to the pup room a 3 foot plus barrier with a ledge . Son would sit on the ledge and practice his high school issue saxophone and the teen boys would guffaw and be loud and noisy , and the pups ran around just as comfortable as the kids --.

Pups start life in a large bright room which also has the laundry -- so I would find an excuse to shout upstairs - hey bring me your gym clothes or bring me the towels - loud so that I could be heard. The the person would rap on the door and I would loudly invite them in. They associate environment and responses , this is part of socializing them. If I were to walk down that sidewalk confident , the dog follows the same. 
I have handled many many dogs with problems with shyness. Back in the day I handled and prepared dogs for conformation shows that needed something fixed "fear of man with hat" , fear of man with clipboard etc. I got dogs , fresh German imports , sent up from a USA importer to fix problems . The worst was a dog that was horribly afraid of moving traffic -- just about pulled me into traffic flow when she bolted with my attached. 
There was only one dog ever , an canadian bred , american show line dog, that could not be helped . I gave up. Extreme fear of wide open spaces and people moving about. Nice in the home with my young kids . The agoraphobic of canines.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

cloning , only the reproductive cells , germ cells have no age . cloning me , poor baby , would start life off with cells with limited replications - telomeres having some wear and tear.
that is the nicest thing any one has said this year !


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## Marnie (Oct 11, 2011)

carmspack said:


> well no not a peanut . If you maintain and consider the dog as a juvenile then that is where they stay . That is an emotional cripple.
> Okay . I am surprised at how many people saw Bruno as a big old intimidating aggressive dog . He is just the polar opposite . A bit of a sweety. Who ever bred him, who ever raised him did a very very good job . Here is a very balanced dog with good social skills. Social skills.
> He is not the only one chasing. Here we see beautiful pack dynamics and co-operation among the dogs. They are falling short of catching . The intent is the chase . If anyone of them wanted they could have caught the GSH pointer many times over . The whole pack could have pinned him. Look at the expression of the chased . He is having a thrill .
> You help a dog by being a role model. We don't know how Kira was handled from birth to Anthony's home.
> ...


My experience with timid dogs at dog parks is very different. My male pup is exactly like Bruno. There is absolutely no harm in him, he is just a pup and all about play. After about 5 visits to the dog park, I decided not to bring my Temp back. He played beautifully with other dogs, give and take, chasing and being chased. After a time, he and the pack would pick a more timid dog and relentlessly pursue it until it was cowering under it's owner's legs. That is pretty much pack mentality in any species. IMHO it's like kids on a playground who always choose the littlest guy to pick on. Should we call that a wonderful example of playground dynamics. It is all very interesting but it won't help a timid dog regain confidence. 

I'm a firm believer in the first commandment of behavior modification. Set your dog up to succeed. Failure just reinforces the unwanted behavior. The easiest set up in this case is to allow only dogs that make the timid dog more comfortable. Changing behavior sometimes takes time and patience but if she continues to be put in stressful situations, her behavior may go forward into adulthood. That is just my opinion and of course everyone may not agree.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> In the park I would have given her some signal that situation is normal -- because it was , there was no threat , no danger .
> Remember you are part of the team .


One thing I noticed with many dog parks is that the owners stand there and do nothing. No sign, nothing. They stand there and talk. So sometimes the dogs get into a bulk and you can tell that the stress level rises and thats when the scruffels happen. An easy fix, for me, has always been to call them and to keep walking. 

However, that dog park seems to be quite small. Not sure if I would feel comfortable in there with so many dogs and not enough room to keep walking and the pack moving.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

That table bothered me, all I could see is a dog getting rushed and bashing into it while trying to get under. 
I still say Bruno is a bit of a bully, he may be stable/well bred(and handsome) but he was the king of that kingdom.


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

OP, I thought Jazz was a bit of a sissy at that age too. My hubby and I joked that he was going to be like that forever. When he hit 1 year of age we really saw confidence that we had never seen before. He's now over two years old and is an extremely confident dog. It's like night and day compared to what he was like as a pup. Give her time and create lots of positive interactions which I do not doubt you are already doing .


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> That table bothered me, all I could see is a dog getting rushed and bashing into it while trying to get under.
> I still say Bruno is a bit of a bully, he may be stable/well bred(and handsome) but he was the king of that kingdom.


Of course he was. It's a GSD thing.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Marnie - agree . Pretty much what I said to Anthony and to others before. What ever is basic to the animal , whether it is aggressive or fearful will be amplified by having the message driven home over and over. The bully puts notches on his belt and becomes super-bully , the weak and submissive keep getting tested and become convinced that this is what they are , and so they remain the underdog. 
In this group though , because we are only discussing this video , there really was nothing to fear . Even the reaction of the little lap dogs flustered her. 

There is another dog in the home that needs a bit of attitude adjustment . 
That will impress on Kira that there is justice in the world, and that she has a partner that is there for her -- 
I am beginning to get a little hot when I see people taking their dogs out for a walk . The dog is some 10 feet out on the flexi lead doing his thing in his little zone or world , the owner has a cell phone clapped to ear , in another world -- no connection. You go to the dog park and every one is standing there with their cup of coffee , yacking away -- dogs are doing their thing . Connection not there.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

The dog in charge was the dark coloured GSH pointer . That dog was deciding what was going to happen, all the others including Bruno , who is not a bully , REACTED .
If he were a bully dogs would have been flipping and flying . There was an understanding , a social contract as it were that no dog was going to be caught. A stable dog by definition is not a bully. He has great manners . He is not in a tight prey (think border collie almost on ground) , his tail is down, he maintains distance, a bully would have closed up quickly , close and intimate, in your face, his body posture is relaxed, his hackles are down, his head and neck are level with the top line. A bully would have an extended neck with arch , eyes up and slanted down in the eye contact.

later


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Yup, absolutely agree about that. 




carmspack said:


> Marnie - agree . Pretty much what I said to Anthony and to others before. What ever is basic to the animal , whether it is aggressive or fearful will be amplified by having the message driven home over and over. The bully puts notches on his belt and becomes super-bully , the weak and submissive keep getting tested and become convinced that this is what they are , and so they remain the underdog.
> In this group though , because we are only discussing this video , there really was nothing to fear . Even the reaction of the little lap dogs flustered her.
> 
> There is another dog in the home that needs a bit of attitude adjustment .
> ...


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## Frankly I'm Frank (Jan 2, 2012)

Rahrah said:


> Wanted to add that Fenrir does the same thing (if rushed upon) she doesn't know that she's not going to be attacked. (She's been rushed upon twice while been on a leash, from two unrestrained dogs- both attacked -separate incidences)
> 
> We don't go to dog parks- but do go to puppy obedience training- pups are close in age.


Dogs react based on their level of confidence.
In a situation where they know the dogs and have played with them they are OK and can be chased and stalked and pounced on and chewed on.
In a situation where they don't know the dogs they are likely to respond with fear or aggression unless they are calm and confident dogs.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

carmspack said:


> cloning , only the reproductive cells , germ cells have no age . cloning me , poor baby , would start life off with cells with limited replications - telomeres having some wear and tear.
> that is the nicest thing any one has said this year !



I'm trying to bribe you to look at Rocket's pedigree....


But I meant what Isaid. You just have so much KNOWLEDGE and such a great delivery.


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

I agree with RocketDog. I learned a great deal from you CarmsPack, in this thread alone. And I want to say that in reading your posts here, I could feel MY confidence building in my handling of my dogs too. 

I love reading posts like this. The education one can take from this and apply to their own lives is invigorating! Thank you


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

It is so important to understand what is going on. To recognize when the dog is normal and correct.

For any of those who thought Bruno is a bully , show me where , show me where he needs a correction.

Dogs are corrected at the wrong time, praised at the wrong time . 

- so ms Kira , what do you see on her?

Look at her in the few frames in which she appears in the Bruno playing , I believe 3rd video.

Do you see that SHE is a good dog?

Do you see that she stands apart from the video guy who I asssume is Anthony . Do you see that she is pretty neutral, interested in the activity . Do you see that she is not hackling, not fear aggressive . She does not advance in fear. She is not chasing the dogs off when they come zooming by her .

The dog park is not the place for her to gain confidence.

Dogs don't raise dogs .

This is where the owner comes in . Like making a pie crust -- too much working the dough too much pressure and you get some unedible hard crust , too little and you have a mouthful of flour. Takes practice to get it right .

Just like the recommendation on the dog running in to the crate , Kira needs to experience little increments of pressure , something she probably missed in the first 7 weeks of life . 
Skip the dog park for a month or so and do some plain old walking with her on lead , both of you focused on each other - casual but attentive heeling. You Anthony are at the helm , the dog follows you. A short walk to start - few a day . Not to cover distance but to work in position of heel -- we are not talking about drilling or military precision or trialing perfection. You want the dog on the left , close to you but not interfering, not cutting in front or crowding . You want the dog to adapt to changes in speed . Each time the dog does it , shows an indication of attempting to comply , you praise . There is where confidence comes from . Improve the relationship . Take her off property to do this . Start in an area with no distraction . Here is an idea . Pick an area that you like . Pop pup into the car . Right from the start put some order into bording and exiting the car . That is pressure .
You have her wait until you invite her in . Exiting the same thing you don't ever want a dog who bolts out when you open a door . So request that she wait until invited to come out . 
Take only the one dog . Personal attention - one on one.
Go to the spot . Now you bring her out . You do 5 minutes of brisk work . Walk , do a wide circle dog on outside so she has to walk faster as her arc is wider . Brisk. Motion makes happy . Give her soft eye contact . Show the pleasure in your face . Encourage her . Do some straight walking . Change speed . Help her be right by not testing her but showing her what you want and recognizing it so the dog clearly understands when it is right and that the effort is appreciated. 
End early and on a high note long before it becomes a drudge. Drive to your coffee shop , for a break , read the paper , watch the TV screen - give her about 20 minutes.
Learning is soaked in during the pauses . When you go back to the car she will be all excited to see you. Bring her out under control -- don't get flustered or angry or you'll blow the whole thing to this point. Bring her out on lead and start moving with her while she is still in this state. Just a short few minutes, once around the building or parking lot. All you are doing is solidifying that you are happy with her . Back in car - home.
No work at home - that's the place to hang out . Of course basic good house manners enforced.

When you get home downplay it a bit . Make it exciting and then you have a dog that wants to get home . You want the opposite , you want a dog happy to go and meet the world.
So when you get home don't party it up . Don't give treats . Put her quietly in her crate to rest , think things over . You do what you need to do and then you let her out when you want her out. 
Don't overplay the going in or coming out . 

I think you can get a very good result - especially after seeing the little snips of her on that video. 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

The pup from the very first video. Let her play with that pup. Those two seem to be on the same level. If you have to have her play with a dog, let her play with that one. 

If too many dogs come in that are much stronger than your girl. Take her out. Put her into the car. Don't set her up for failure. 

Also, if she's all around a timid dog, do things that will raise her confidence level in you. Black and White rules, help a lot with timid dogs. Clicker training, the easy stuff, like easy tricks, can raise her confidence because she can't do anything wrong and they more confident she gets they more you can raise the level. 

If she gets older, Agility is a HUGE confidence booster. (BTDT with one of mine and it helped tremendously) 

This girl needs to be motivated, not put down. You need to be the leader in this one. If you constantly put your own dog down because you think she's a chicken, it won't work. YOU need to be pro-active in this one.

She's still young. Just because she's a little on the softer side, doesn't mean she can't be an outgoing dog. But you need to be the one showing her that it is okay. Not by baby-pampering her but by setting up situations where she can succeed. 

Believe it or not, it's just as important for dogs as it is for humans.


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## blehmannwa (Jan 11, 2011)

Thanks Carmen, reading your analysis is very helpful for dealing with Hav's reactivity and behaviors. I especially like what you said about "learning is soaked in during the pauses."
I'm coping with a very changed household and trying to do my best with a very high performing athletic boy. Your insight into social behaviors helps me with my frustrations and confirms my instinct to stay within his threshold. I do pressure him but when I ask a lot, I need to reward with praise and calmness... and give him a break. A belly rub or a command that he can execute flawlessly, or a play session with a tug.
He's a lovely boy and does so well when I focus on him and give him feedback.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

_First off, I'd like to thank each and every one of you for taking the time to offer your personal assessment. 
I've gotten to rely on some of the experiences, and knowledge that many of you bring to this forum.
Again, thank you_

Back to the discussion....

Ok, today I'm feeling very overwhelmed. I feel as if I've put in 1000s of man hours into raising our pup, and still can't seem to understand my roles as her owner and leader.

I'll jump straight to the dog park....

Looking at the videos, it's clear that going there is hit or miss. I have a few regulars that Kira knows and plays with, and then "SNAP", something goes off in her head that puts her into a fearful state.
Her sense of who's' safe, and who's not, has not been too accurate.
Bruno is a safe dog. She's played rougher with pit bulls, and larger golden doodles. That video is not an accurate description of Bruno's behavior (the so called stalk stance). He likes to run, but never touches.

The other day, I was walking with Kira, and we came face to face with friend / dog owner. His dog was a three year old little hairy dog. It resembled a larger Pomeranian. Maybe 15-20 pounds at most. Kira wanted to play, and so did the other dog. They sniffed, bowed, and licked each other. THEN, the other dog jumped in the direction of Kira to play a little rougher (just a double paw on top of Kira). Kira yelped as if she was bitten. Both of us were stunned by this.

SO my answer is socialization. I continue to expose her to playful dogs, in the hopes that she will overcome that tendency to back off and cry bloody murder.
IMO, she is NOT responding well to what I've been doing.

Carmen....

I do 90% of what you suggest in your last post. I do the walks. I'm extremely close to her , and her attention level is very high. I can walk with her at heel, and she can look at me for the entire walk. I did take basic obedience with her, so her leash work base is there, and she is receptive to learning.
I have the opportunity to start a new 8 week module in a beginner 1 class tonight, and I may take advantage of it. It's designed for 6 months - 9 month pups. She'll be surrounded by pups her age, and in a controlled environment.

Here are some of the things that I stress with her:

1) Every time I exit or enter a door, I "sit / wait" Kira. I enter the door, she waits for my release. Same thing for steps.

2) She waits for her release for her food.

3) She walks tight heel, UNLESS I give her some space with a longer lead. This is a topic I mentioned in previous posts, and was unsure whether or not I should be doing this. I do take her for casual walks, but always throw some training in there. The start / stop / speed thing you mentioned, is an exercise that I learned in her obedience class. It is something I practice with her, and I don't have any leash issues at this time. Walking with her, is a pleasurable experience.

4) As you recall in a previous thread, I do work her recall. I found that her recall is 100%, when she's NOT in fetch mode. If she's simply roaming, I can call her back on a dime. If I'm playing fetch, she wants me to chase her. I'll work on that with a high level treat or other method.

5) Home is relax time for her. She has her bed, and I do allow her on the sofa. She is well behaved at home. No issues whatsoever. No biting, no destruction, sleeps all night in her crate, and never cries or barks when we go out without her. She is a good pup.

** I have a suspicion that having a small aggressive Maltese might be sending the wrong signal to Kira. Coconut does NOT like to play with her. She used to play zoomies, but as of late, Kira will hover over Coconut's head, and mouth her, and Coconut will always respond with a bark / correction to Kira. Kira backs off and protests, but never shows aggression. I call Kira off Coconut as soon as I see the excitement level increase, and then they both could sit there, and chew a bone side by side, with incident.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

It doesn't matter what else is going on. What matters is your dog and her perception and her reactions to what is going on. And you to be proactive and stop it for her. 
We could speculate all day about whats and whys but that does not matter as much as you reading her correctly and intervening at the right time.


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## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

Anthony8858 said:


> I can accept that.
> Is this normal behavior for a 6 month old GS?



None of my dogs displayed Kira's behavior, but then again, I always have males.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Josie/Zeus said:


> None of my dogs displayed Kira's behavior, but then again, I always have males.


It's not so much about the Gender but if the dog is more on the softer side or not. I've seen it in males too. When I was gone at SAR Training, my husband had both our males, the old (7years) and the young (around 1 year at that time) outside in the yard and "forgot" about it. 

When I got home, the young male had a nice wound right underneath his eye and I could tell that the old male seriously went after the young male. I would have never called the young male on the softer side but the old male must have "put him down" really good. I wasn't there but just from the behavior and the wounds of the young male I knew that I was lucky that the young boy was still alive meaning, that nothing worse happened. 

Needless to say I was super mad. For the next couple of days, if the old male only looked into his direction. Just a tiny glance and the young male ran, yelping into the different direction and peed himself. 

He was always one of the crowd, always rambunctious and outgoing. He bounced back quickly but for two days he literally ran from the old male until I stepped in. 

I was so mad at my husband for leaving the two out there alone. I knew what could happen and told him NOT to leave the two outside unsupervised but he fell asleep on the couch and both of them were out there doing their own thing. 

So I believe that the young male pestered the old male and Yukon simply answered the pestering with the only way he knew how to gain himself some respect. Since Judge was so young at that time it left quite an impression but two days later he was back at pestering Yukon and didn't run anymore so it couldn't have been all "that" bad.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Everything Carmen said and two more suggestions.

Buy Turid Rugaas's books, especially Calming Signals for Dogs. Lots of great insight into how dogs communicate. 

Play your video's back in slow motion. It makes it easier to pick up things you don't notice in real time.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Whiteshepherds said:


> Everything Carmen said and two more suggestions.
> 
> Buy Turid Rugaas's books, especially Calming Signals for Dogs. Lots of great insight into how dogs communicate.
> 
> Play your video's back in slow motion. It makes it easier to pick up things you don't notice in real time.


 
Calming signals for dogs looks interesting. I just ordered the Ebook. I'll read it tonight.

As far as the slow motion video.... I don't know what I'm looking for.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Anthony8858 said:


> As far as the slow motion video.... I don't know what I'm looking for.


You will after you read the book.  Also search online for articles about canine body language, there's a lot of information out there. Print out Carmen's posts, see if you can see the things she was talking about. 

A group of us got together and did this when our dogs were younger just to see if we could spot the calming signals and how the dogs were "talking" to each other. It was surprising to see what was actually going on as the dogs were chasing and playing together. One of the most interesting exercises I've ever done with dogs and really fun. I feel like I understand our dogs better now because of it. (But you still have to train them!! )


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

ohh I am so mad at myself - had this long post and get distracted , multi - tasking getting ready for double duty at market tomorrow after a 2 week holiday --- and so I come and go and add things and then instead of scrolling to see Anthonys post I hit the x in the red bar on the upper right hand deleting everything -- grrrrr .

Bruno is not stalking. A predatory stalk will show you tensed muscles . His body would have been lower . Those pictures of dogs reclining head between paws are not stalking . They are resting , ready for play. A stalk , ready to pounce is low but not on the ground , far too much effort to spring forward - like getting out of couch . 
Border collies are experts at stalking .

So if this version is clipped , forgive me , it is now time constraints. 
to the chase - Anthony too many times you are embarrassed or apologetic about your dog . Seems like something you buy and it is "not exactly as described". This is a good companion -- still young . Seems like YOU want to go to the dog park .
Dogs are wonderful social facilitators . They provide an opening to approach and speak with someone , ice breakers. They also represent an image that we want to project . Personally I think she is a great little dog to learn from . 
obedience --- don't make it rigid and stiff , stern . You are not competing so you don't need drills - you need a dog who is compliant and responsive , has manners and partners with you . 
Here is a very old book that is excellent - helps you as the trainer relax , makes a proper response to training fun for the dog [ame]http://www.amazon.com/Playtraining-Your-Patricia-Gail-Burnham/dp/0312616910[/ame] keeps it spontaneous , one action flows in to another. The doling out of treats is a little low on dynamics - good for pigeons, your timing has to be right . New book out which I have not read 



 -- there is also another one called Happy Dog , a woman who trained her malamute, and another title unknown till I go through my books in storage by a woman who trained borzoi and got UD titles. 

Socializing around other dogs . 

quote "The other day, I was walking with Kira, and we came face to face with friend / dog owner. His dog was a three year old little hairy dog. It resembled a larger Pomeranian. Maybe 15-20 pounds at most. Kira wanted to play, and so did the other dog. They sniffed, bowed, and licked each other. THEN, the other dog jumped in the direction of Kira to play a little rougher (just a double paw on top of Kira). Kira yelped as if she was bitten. Both of us were stunned by this"

dogs do not need to get in to each others face . 
Take her out in the proximity of dogs but have her under your direction -- focus on you . The other dog also under control . (this is whole topic on its own -no time for it ).
If truth be known if two dogs met on their own with no people present , they would approach not go nose to nose - that is aggressive -- the two dogs in your scenario are BOTH uncomfortable - both of them throwing out calming signals , licking , nose flicking -- ew don't harm me, I'm harmless , they do not kiss -- so back to the two strange dogs meeting they would be more cheek to cheek , cursory check and then glide on by and the "face-book" "bio" would be checking out the rear end. That is how dogs socialize. Even a fearful dog will stand and have its rear examined. They may clamp , but the stronger dog will use his nose as a wedge to get to page 3 of the history of the dog being examined. A very bold dog will have his vent fully exposed -- here let me hand you my card and my CV . 
This is one thing you could do if you insist on going to the dog park. Bruno seems a good candidate. Ask his owner to hold him on leash and let your Kira approach from the rear -- let her take her time , then let the other dog examine her , while you hold her steady and you maintain an emotional equilibrium. If you get nervous Kira will read it and copy .
So you were embarrassed by your dogs behaviour - ?
By the way the other dog was rude . Two paws up is rude, the owner should have brought her down - in a way putting his two paws on her . Standing over is a social dominant action. 

quote "SO my answer is socialization. I continue to expose her to playful dogs, in the hopes that she will overcome that tendency to back off and cry bloody murder.
IMO, she is NOT responding well to what I've been doing.
"
see that is your agenda - you're going to like this if it is the last thing I do . 

You work with her first - no dogs - you get her confident in you -- you give her a reason to trust you .

Play - retrieve -- don't throw the ball so far. Get down on her level and tease her with the ball . Roll it so that you are in control - like a hockey guy passing the puck teasing the goalie , keeping the tension and focus. The game is close . Let her win it , close , and then she gives it up to continue the game . This includes you in the game . 

all I can do for now till late late tonight or Sunday

in the meantime - to the tune of S Sills - Love the One Your With --- extremely changed - Cowell and Abdul would say "you've made it your own" - ending on fun 

*If you’re down and confused, and you don’t remember who you’re talkin’ to. Concentration slip away, ‘cause your baby is so far away*

*Don’t be angry, don’t be sad, and don’t sit cryin’ over good times you’ve had. There’s a girl right next to you, and she’s just waitin’ for something to do*

*Well get it together, make it real nice, 
You ain’t gonna need anymore advice*

* honey, love the one you’re with, love the one you’re with, love the one you’re with, love the one you’re with. 
Well get it together, make it real nice, 
You ain’t gonna need anymore advice*

* honey, love the one you’re with, love the one you’re with, love the one you’re with, love the one you’re with. 
Dit dit dit dit dit dit dit dit, dit dit dit dit dit dit dit dit, dit dit dit dit dit dit dit dit, dit dit dit, dit dit dit*

* love the one you’re with, love the one you’re with, love the one you’re with, love the one you’re with. *

*(s sills) *

*Carmen*
*Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs *


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## cta (May 24, 2011)

i like the post by carmspack a lot. i think that there are a lot of valid points there. now, by NO means am i qualified to give advice, as i am brand new to this breed, however, i do like to share my thoughts based on my own personal experiences. my dog is a lot like kira. when we used to take him to the dog park, he was put in certain situations and reacted fearfully. i don't mean biting or anything, but tucking his hind end and basically having this look of "why the heck did you people bring me here?" had i known then what i know now, i wouldn't have allowed these things to happen. end of the dog park. no good ever came out of it. that's not to say that he didn't have good experiences there from time to time, because he did, but the majority of the time...it just wasn't good. all the hard work you are putting into training with her seems to be undone by things like this. i could be totally wrong, but to me, it's kind of like taking one step forward and two steps back. when we first got chobahn, i had all these ideas of what he was going to do or what he was going to be. i thought he was going to be everything a german shepherd is *supposed* to be, but boy was i wrong! i had all these preconceived notions and when i started to learn he wasn't the dog i thought he was, admittedly, i was a little upset. but, i learned his limitations and we continue to push through the best way i know how. i think that when something isn't working, you (i'm not pointing fingers here, just saying "you" meaning people in general) have to change it. for example, i used to be very hard on him with obedience...very rigid. well, turns out that didn't work, so *I *had to find a different way to teach him things i wanted him to do. He learned a lot of manners through play. i taught him to wait while i disappeared from sight while we played "find it" with his ball. i used the game of tug to teach him how to use his off switch and how to sit down and wait for the rope instead of jumping like a maniac to get it. sorry to ramble, i guess the point i'm trying to make is try not to get caught up in making her something she's not. maybe she's a little soft? my dog definitely is and it's not something i wanted to admit at first, but he is what he is. once i let go of my own agenda i was able to really focus on trying to overcome these obstacles, i got to know *him *and his behaviors better and our bond really grew to be very strong. again, sorry for the rant, i'm not trying to be preachy, just wanted to give my two cents.


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## Razzle J.Dazzle (Sep 8, 2011)

Hands down best post of the year (and it's only January!). So informative!! It makes me want to do better for Razzle!! Thanks Anthony for sharing and thanks Carmen for providing such educational explanations!


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

I'm not ignoring you. 

I'm doing my best to read this over and over, until I fully understand.


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## Frankly I'm Frank (Jan 2, 2012)

cta said:


> i like the post by carmspack a lot. i think that there are a lot of valid points there. now, by NO means am i qualified to give advice, as i am brand new to this breed, however, i do like to share my thoughts based on my own personal experiences. my dog is a lot like kira. when we used to take him to the dog park, he was put in certain situations and reacted fearfully. i don't mean biting or anything, but tucking his hind end and basically having this look of "why the heck did you people bring me here?" had i known then what i know now, i wouldn't have allowed these things to happen. end of the dog park. no good ever came out of it. that's not to say that he didn't have good experiences there from time to time, because he did, but the majority of the time...it just wasn't good. all the hard work you are putting into training with her seems to be undone by things like this. i could be totally wrong, but to me, it's kind of like taking one step forward and two steps back. when we first got chobahn, i had all these ideas of what he was going to do or what he was going to be. i thought he was going to be everything a german shepherd is *supposed* to be, but boy was i wrong! i had all these preconceived notions and when i started to learn he wasn't the dog i thought he was, admittedly, i was a little upset. but, i learned his limitations and we continue to push through the best way i know how. i think that when something isn't working, you (i'm not pointing fingers here, just saying "you" meaning people in general) have to change it. for example, i used to be very hard on him with obedience...very rigid. well, turns out that didn't work, so *I *had to find a different way to teach him things i wanted him to do. He learned a lot of manners through play. i taught him to wait while i disappeared from sight while we played "find it" with his ball. i used the game of tug to teach him how to use his off switch and how to sit down and wait for the rope instead of jumping like a maniac to get it. sorry to ramble, i guess the point i'm trying to make is try not to get caught up in making her something she's not. maybe she's a little soft? my dog definitely is and it's not something i wanted to admit at first, but he is what he is. once i let go of my own agenda i was able to really focus on trying to overcome these obstacles, i got to know *him *and his behaviors better and our bond really grew to be very strong. again, sorry for the rant, i'm not trying to be preachy, just wanted to give my two cents.


Well said. I think you and I have the same dog and reacted similarly.
He is what he is and we love him just as he is.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Frankly I'm Frank said:


> Well said. I think you and I have the same dog and reacted similarly.
> He is what he is and we love him just as he is.


Of course.
And if we didn't love her, we wouldn't be so concerned.
This post has a lot to do with looking out for her safety, while at the safe time, learning some of the better methods to having a socially adapted GDS.

Living in the city is a lot tougher than many of you have it around here. Dog parks are a way of life. Without them, the task of giving our dogs exercise could be a challenge. The key is to find the right combination of dog park and the dogs that frequent them.

I have a select group of dogs that Kira will play with. I know what time they're there, and I'll meet them a few times a week. In this particular case, I stayed there in the hopes that Kira will bond with a GSD much like her. She obviously didn't.

This morning, we met the dog in the first video. She had a good hour of play time with her, and she was exhausted, and ready to go home. 

Tonight, we attended obedience class. There was no social time, but all the dogs in the same area, had no ill effects on her. she was fine.


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## cta (May 24, 2011)

being in the city can definitely be difficult, i totally agree with this because i'm in a similar situation. really for me the only place to let my dog run off leash is in my yard or at a dog park. i will not let him off leash unless he is in a fenced in area. i know i kind of took the post elsewhere and it's very obvious you love your dog and work very hard with her, but it was just the one comment by carmspack about having an agenda that got me thinking about how i dealt with my own dog when he was a puppy. sometimes what you initially think is good for them or is right for them isn't. and realizing that is kind of the point i was trying to drive home. but trust me, i always see these awesome pictures of dogs swimming, people letting their dogs run in big fields and i'm always like baaaah i want that too! get me to the country!


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

cta said:


> being in the city can definitely be difficult, i totally agree with this because i'm in a similar situation. really for me the only place to let my dog run off leash is in my yard or at a dog park. i will not let him off leash unless he is in a fenced in area. i know i kind of took the post elsewhere and it's very obvious you love your dog and work very hard with her, but it was just the one comment by carmspack about having an agenda that got me thinking about how i dealt with my own dog when he was a puppy. *sometimes what you initially think is good for them or is right for them isn't*. and realizing that is kind of the point i was trying to drive home. but trust me, i always see these awesome pictures of dogs swimming, people letting their dogs run in big fields and i'm always like baaaah i want that too! get me to the country!


And THAT"S why I'm here and asking loads of questions!!!!!

This IS what forums are for, isn't it??

Just because I've had a few challenges along the way, doesn't mean I failed, or have a dog that failed. It's a learning process.

As I said, tonight we attended obedience class. It was the first class of the new module. All new dogs, and new people.
I was so proud of her, when the instructor used Kira to demonstrate loose leash walking, and how well her attention / focus was while heeling.


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## cta (May 24, 2011)

ur totally right. i'm not disagreeing with you whatsoever. i've just read some of your other posts and kind of feel like maybe at one point i was in the same boat you are. that's why i always put a disclaimer in the beginning of my posts...i'm NO expert, i just like to share my experiences, because after all...this is a learning process for everyone and that's what forums are for...right again. i have acknowledged the work you have put in with her...it's very evident from your posts that you train with her a lot. i guess i was just hoping that you didn't feel like your dog was a failure or that you have failed your dog, which is why i shared my story. i did feel like that at one point in time because when you try so hard and work so much with your dog and you don't see the outcome you want, it can be discouraging. that's all.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Sometimes a person can train to hard/long also. A lesson I had to learn this last week with Woolf. It resulted in behavior problems, stomach problems, loss of focus, reactivity was back almost as bad as ever.

We backed up a couple of steps, spent a few days just playing, used that time for him to de-stress, no new exposure, just play and Woolf having fun just being a dog.

Focus is back as good as or better, behavior good, reactivity back at current level, stomach issues cleared up just from play.

Something to think about..


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## cta (May 24, 2011)

Twyla said:


> Sometimes a person can train to hard/long also. A lesson I had to learn this last week with Woolf. It resulted in behavior problems, stomach problems, loss of focus, reactivity was back almost as bad as ever.
> 
> We backed up a couple of steps, spent a few days just playing, used that time for him to de-stress, no new exposure, just play and Woolf having fun just being a dog.
> 
> ...


 
that's a very good point too. i took a hiatus from the more formal training when he was going through his adolescent stage. he is way more focused now and makes training a pleasure instead of it feeling like a chore.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

just checking in to see what's cooking--

I know city life - at the height of my involvement in competitive obedience and show handling I lived in the heart of downtown Toronto (for 15 plus years). 
Never used a dog park or found the need to have the dog run with strange dogs . 
Besides Kira has a canine companion at home . 
Carmen


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

carmspack said:


> just checking in to see what's cooking--
> 
> I know city life - at the height of my involvement in competitive obedience and show handling I lived in the heart of downtown Toronto (for 15 plus years).
> Never used a dog park or found the need to have the dog run with strange dogs .
> ...


Just out of curiosity, how did you exercise your dog when you lived in the city?
Everything I've read, and heard about, stresses the importance of getting these dogs to expel their energy. 

I'm not a fan of dog parks either. I'm very much aware of the risks, and dangers of having so many dogs in a confined area. But what choices do I have to give my dog ample play time?


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## Francise (Oct 20, 2011)

Well you can take it for a walk or play with your it in evening.On week days you can spare more time for it.Also teach it different tricks, it will really help to strengthen your relation.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Francise said:


> Well you can take it for a walk or play with your it in evening.On week days you can spare more time for it.Also teach it different tricks, it will really help to strengthen your relation.


Tricks are fun, and a walk is a nice way to bond. but I'm talking about some good old fashioned, tongue hanging, panting exercise. 
She has a friend that sets the tone for some wild chasing. She needs that, and loves it.
I just need to find the right place to give it to her.

As far as my relationship..... We're very close. She's by far, my best friend.


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## JanaeUlva (Feb 5, 2011)

Minka gets good tongue hanging panting exercise everyday with me! Take one big field, or a small grassy area with barn and a Chuck-it and/or a tug, then start throwing the ball and/or mix it up with tugging. 

We vary the throwing from straight up fetch (throw and she retrieves) with two ball where she runs back to me and without stopping drops her ball on command and i throw another. We even have rules that she can't drop her first ball until I tell her to drop-it or I don't throw the second ball.

I use this time to do obedience - say a command then throw the ball when she responds correctly. Use two balls and really get some long haul flat out running exercise in. 

Sometimes I throw the ball to her so that it bounces off the ground and she has to judge the trajectory in order to catch it. If we play in tall grass or snow, there is often a hunt to find it, that stimulates the brain and nose as well as the body thru casting about trying to find the ball. 

We play in the dark with glow-in-the-dark balls. She has learned to listen for her ball. 

Sometimes I tell her to drop her ball and hold the tug out for her to run and launch at (that can be scary for me!). We tug then I tell her to out and throw a ball for her.

We also play two ball off the wall of the barn, again the can't-drop-it-until-I-say-so rule applies, then i throw the second one at the barn wall. When she is running back to me I can tell her to sit, stand, down, heel, whatever, and she does it on a dime. Sometimes I throw the ball away from the barn wall. Lately, this game has become a favorite.

It's all fast moving and exciting and the best thing about these games? The interaction is all with me, not another dog. I am the center of her tongue hanging, panting fun! And I don't ever run the risk of dog aggression. 

Just some suggestions that have worked for me. Obviously, not everybody has a big field or a barn wall  but it's fun thinking up games that are fun, exercising and a way to learn all at the same time.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Update.....

Ok, I'd like to add a little something to the thread:

My wife has been the one that's been pushing the dog park issue. I honestly don't feel comfortable, but my wife felt it was a way of dog life, and I should just let her work through it.

Well... Today, it was an incredible 60+ degrees in NY. After showing my wife ths thread, she agreed to leave Kira at home, and visit the dog park with me. I expected a crowd of dogs, and it was my intention to point out the potential problems. 

In the hour or so, I pointed out numerous pinning, soft stools, dogs hiding in corners, aggressive dogs attempting to mount anything that moves, and pit bull testosterone kings, that gloat because their dogs walk around in the hunt. 

At the end, she agreed that the dog park was not in Kira's best interest.... Or ours.

I am asking for your input suggesting various ways to get Kira her much needed socialization, without having to expose her to a bunch of strange dogs every day,


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> I am asking for your input suggesting various ways to get Kira her much needed socialization, without having to expose her to a bunch of strange dogs every day,


What people don't seem to understand is that even a normal walk, outside the house, exposing her to streets, cars, bikes, pedestrians, dogs on the other side of the road, different towns, parks... pretty much anytime you take that dog out of the house, is exposing her to new things. 

You don't have your dog to play with other dogs to socialize her. Just walking by another dog and her tolerating that dog without going off, IS socializing. 

Anytime you walk by a person, IS socializing.

Socializing doesn't mean that you have to force your dog to play with other dogs or onto people, it simply means to expose your dog to every day, normal life, so she accepts things as normal. 

Teach her obedience. She's in a great age to go through obedience lessons. That will boost her and your confidence in the dog. But don't go with class where you've got ten dogs. Go with something that has two or three dogs where everybody gets his turn. Depending on where you are at in NY you might even be close to Debbie Zappia. She's one of the best, if not THE BEST Obedience Trainer, NY has to offer. 

If you want her to play with another dog... go with that puppy from the first video. Those two seemed to be to get along great.


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## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

I suggest walking her everyday, if she is out there everyday, seeing different people or encounter dogs during walk time, that should be good enough.

I don't socialize my dog, he has a very stable temperament. Like I said, he gets to see his golden retriever cousins probably once a month for a few hours. I take him to Petsmart once in a while. 

We exercise everyday through walking, playing fetch with his jolly ball for 30-40 minutes (with breaks of course). In the summer, his exercise is swimming since it's way too hot to walk.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

hello again - what did I do to exercise and satisfy the dogs. I would have about an hour after husband came home to spell me off on caring for young daughter. In that time the dog was with me on lead and we would walk briskly around the residential neighbourhood . While doing so I had my full attention on the dog - and I kept throwing surprises at her , changing speeds , direction, doing spontaneous figure 8's , about turns, dropping her, recalls, stays out of motion , sit stays , down stays where I would leave , turn around walk over and past her. It was the mental stimulation .
Sometimes I would take a indian rubber ball (lacrose ball -super bouncer ) and head to the back of grocery store parking lot and ping that ball hard against the brick wall . The dog would be wild running after it and the ball hit the wall and you never knew where it would careen - unpredictable direction long before the kong. 

Later on the dog learned to be hitched to a chariot , take directions , left , right, wait, slow , forward , stay . My daughter would sit in the chariot , we would go to the grocery , daughter riding . We would go inside , dog and cart waited outside . Steady and reliable . I would spend many times in the training phase positioning myself inside a shop ready to spring out and correct (direction not punitive!) until she was "bomb proof" which meant a dog could go up to her , or a person could pat her and she would not budge . 

I would bike her . Regulated speed about 5 to 7 miles per hour . 
The satisfaction comes from being connected , being appreciated , feeling that your services have value . The dog felt like a valued team member. 

This is the same female that became 1981 Obedience Grand Victrix with a score of 199.5 / 200 - with a litter at home - (ready to leave - basically finished weaning.) However, we went to trial "cold turkey" after a 4 month maternity leave - a little out of condition and out of practice. I always chose judges that were demanding . She got her title under Howard Ward who was known for throwing in speed and rapid fire changes . He also wanted the dog to show spirit.

All the training I did was on the street . Then I joined an obedience class in a church basement for the experience of working under control in close proximity to other dogs .
When I was heeling with the dog and a raised municipal planter with tree was in the way - the dog had to board the planter , keep in heel position , keep in time. Same if I wanted to "hot dog" it - now would I being doing that - you bet because that put the fun into it -- spontaneity -- because in real life you never know what is around the corner. This keeps the dog focused , not day dreaming. So say a park bench was there and I was heeling toward it , bench to the left of the dog , I would close up on the space between so that the dog had to jump over the backrest - keep in time.
The dog knew what "heel" was . 
How many dogs KNOW what come means. Want to test it.
Take your dog walk , have dog sit stay - not Kira she's not ready and you do not set your dog up for failure . A partner in trust does not do this . Sit - stay . Continue walking, walking , stop . Do NOT turn around. Call your dog who is looking at your backside . Call the dog to come -- which should always be a front finish , reporting for -here I am ready, what is next . A casual "here" is to get in close proximity . A come should be consistent. Present yourself in front . So you have called the dog to you with a come. Where is YOUR dog going to end up???

I have done this so many times in clinics that I have held for people brushing up for obedience competition and I have not been often disappointed in what I wrote down on a paper predicting what the dog would do.

Answer? The dog (s) almost to a one would do a nice brisk straight recall and face the persons rear end. They did not swing to face , which necessitates the dog passing to swing in front !!! But that is what COME means.

Same with heeling . Really what does it mean . It means to follow on the left leg without interference , lagging or forging. Do you want to see if the dog understands "HEEL" ?

Here is what I did . Dog at heel. Good . Now you walk backwards . 
Can you predict what most dogs did?

They would swing around the persons front (remember person is walking backwards) and the dog would be walking forward on the person's right . 
That is not a heel . A heel says the dog is to be on the persons left . So in essence the dog does not know heel. 
He has not learned position to YOUR LEFT LEG . He has learned position of HIS right shoulder. When the dog swings in front and walks on the persons right leg , he has positioned HIS right shoulder .

See games . 

Now Kira. Basic to her temperament is a bit of softness . She , from description , seems to lack resiliency , recovery . This you can work on . Requirement is your own state when dealing with her. She is self conscious about displeasure , so do things which will be successful . The more she is "good" the more you will ease up , one feeding the other , till the two of you catch up to each other and you have a team.

Don't worry about people looking at you -- blot them out . Don't worry about them judging you or the dog - they can mind their own business . You have higher things in mind for your dog --. You'll be rewarded in spades. 

Think of yourself as a teacher . 

Here is a very old book







Amazon.com: City Dog (9780876901489): Richard A. Wolters: Books

Wolters is a good writer. 

Another thing that I will say is that I find fault with GSD owners . They tend to be so enthusiastic that they are GSD fanatics. I undertand . When someone says "I have a dog" in conversation at a party or overheard , automatically a GSD pops in to my head. For me that IS 
d o g . And then you find out it is a goldendoodle or a schnauzer --, yeah. But this means that GSD people only look to GSD activity. I tell you I have been blown away by a young man training his field trial lab in the foot ball fields of a local high school where I do laps with my dogs.
The fire power of that dog rushing out to get the bumper , and then the dead stop on a whistle - total control - under conflict in drive . I saw him recently starting another young pup. 

There is a lot of good information to be picked up in books on training water dogs -- because the work is done off lead at a distance --

something to chew on .







Amazon.com: The 10-Minute Retriever: How to Make an Obedient and Enthusiastic Gun Dog in 10 Minutes a Day (9781572233034): John Dahl, Amy Dahl: Books

It's not the exercise that you are training it is the enthusiastic team work !!

** edit - just read Mrs K. ditto what Mrs K said. My dog did not run off lead with other dogs , have play dates, go to doggy day care, need to sniff other dogs . They can sniff and read each other at a distance. 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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