# Working Line - Puppy Class or Straight to Schutzhund ?



## AnisL

Hi everyone,

I'm hopefully getting a working line pup from a reputable breeder this spring and I want to get into sport right away.
There are a couple of IPO clubs near me that I'm looking at but I was also wondering if I should do puppy class before.

I can do basic obedience myself but with a working line dog I want to do things right. I don't want to create any habits or mix training methods that will confuse the dog or hurt his potential in sport.

Should I do puppy class from 2 to say 3-4 months and then start him on IPO or should I just start him right away at 8 weeks with the IPO? Will the IPO cover basic obedience outside sport?

Thank you!


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## Jax08

Take private lessons with an ipo trainer to get your foundation right. Take the puppy to club for socializing


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## Bearshandler

It depends on the club. Some may devote a lot of time to young dogs and teaching basics. Some don’t and expect you to have a certain level of knowledge coming in. It would also depend on the puppy class. You could be teaching your puppy some things that work against being successful in the sport. I don’t know that I’ve seen a lot of basic obedience outside the sport worked on in club settings. They don’t teach house manners and things like that IME. I would find a club I like before I got the puppy. I would start the puppy off in club immediately pretty much and I would take other classes if I felt I needed them.


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## AnisL

Jax08 said:


> Take private lessons with an ipo trainer to get your foundation right. Take the puppy to club for socializing


Thanks for the advice. You are saying I should do both at the same time private IPO classes & puppy club for socializing?


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## AnisL

Bearshandler said:


> It depends on the club. Some may devote a lot of time to young dogs and teaching basics. Some don’t and expect you to have a certain level of knowledge coming in. It would also depend on the puppy class. You could be teaching your puppy some things that work against being successful in the sport. I don’t know that I’ve seen a lot of basic obedience outside the sport worked on in club settings. They don’t teach house manners and things like that IME. I would find a club I like before I got the puppy. I would start the puppy off in club immediately pretty much and I would take other classes if I felt I needed them.


So it would be good to go to puppy class for the dog to socialize and learn obedience outside sport as long as the methods are in line with IPO training? Maybe I should discuss it with the IPO trainers and they can send me somewhere

Thank you


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## Jax08

AnisL said:


> Thanks for the advice. You are saying I should do both at the same time private IPO classes & puppy club for socializing?


In my experience, you can start puppy foundation (which is really games and luring) privately. At this stage you would just be luring the heel, teaching rear end awareness, maybe teaching them the board, recalls, sits and downs. Nothing stressful, all luring and all fun. When I first joined a club I was told by the TD to not bother spending hte money to join while he was young and just take lessons. If you are in a club, take the puppy and bring him out when allowed to socialize with the club members. Typically when the big dogs are done, or during a switchover from obedience to protection. Club is the safest place to socialize a young puppy. It's usually on someone's property and all the dogs are vaccinated and the people aren't stupid. 

Your foundation is critical. You don't want to teach a pet type sit or down that you might be taught in a general puppy class. You would certainly be better off asking these questions on a facebook page like IPO 1 Schutzhund 101 where you can get advice from people with many, many years in the sport. And you may be able to make contacts in your area for training thru the facebook pages too.


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## SuperAndre

What breeder did you end up going with?


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## AnisL

How do I choose a good IPO


Jax08 said:


> In my experience, you can start puppy foundation (which is really games and luring) privately. At this stage you would just be luring the heel, teaching rear end awareness, maybe teaching them the board, recalls, sits and downs. Nothing stressful, all luring and all fun. When I first joined a club I was told by the TD to not bother spending hte money to join while he was young and just take lessons. If you are in a club, take the puppy and bring him out when allowed to socialize with the club members. Typically when the big dogs are done, or during a switchover from obedience to protection. Club is the safest place to socialize a young puppy. It's usually on someone's property and all the dogs are vaccinated and the people aren't stupid.
> 
> Your foundation is critical. You don't want to teach a pet type sit or down that you might be taught in a general puppy class. You would certainly be better off asking these questions on a facebook page like IPO 1 Schutzhund 101 where you can get advice from people with many, many years in the sport. And you may be able to make contacts in your area for training thru the facebook pages too.


Thank you Jax08, that's what I tought, there is differences in the way we teach a pet and a working dog that even my inexperienced eye in dog sports can notice. I always trained my dogs myself but in this case I don't want to confuse the dog or have him to unlearn anything. That's great advice I appreciate it I will join the groups and ask


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## AnisL

SuperAndre said:


> What breeder did you end up going with?


Waiting on my puppy from Fraserglenn/Carmspack


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## Jax08

AnisL said:


> How do I choose a good IPO
> 
> 
> Thank you Jax08, that's what I tought, there is differences in the way we teach a pet and a working dog that even my inexperienced eye in dog sports can notice. I always trained my dogs myself but in this case I don't want to confuse the dog or have him to unlearn anything. That's great advice I appreciate it I will join the groups and ask


Definitely. There is a precision that needs to be in the foundation. We ask a lot of our dogs and when they are under stress (and trials will be stressful) they will fall back on their foundation so teach it right to begin with and you won't have to fix and correct behaviors.


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## SuperAndre

AnisL said:


> Waiting on my puppy from Fraserglenn/Carmspack


Cool cool me too. Which litter?
I am going with Nog and Jadzea


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## Jax08

SuperAndre said:


> I am going with Nog and Jadzea


What's the pedigree on this litter?


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## Steve Strom

Jax08 said:


> Definitely. There is a precision that needs to be in the foundation. We ask a lot of our dogs and when they are under stress (and trials will be stressful) they will fall back on their foundation so teach it right to begin with and you won't have to fix and correct behaviors.


And a part of that is a level of focus in your dog thats not very easy to create in a group setting. Its more like the last type of thing you introduce them to, along the line of distractions.


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## SuperAndre

Jax08 said:


> What's the pedigree on this litter?


Litter from Fraserglen’s Carmspack Nog and Fraserglen's Jadzea Dax Von Ryanhaus - this is them


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## Jax08

SuperAndre said:


> Litter from Fraserglen’s Carmspack Nog and Fraserglen's Jadzea Dax Von Ryanhaus - this is them


Interesting. why did you choose this litter? You were planning on doing sport, right?


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## CeraDean

I did OB foundation at club from 10 weeks old. That gave my pup a few weeks to settle in his new home. At club, my TD gave me things to practice through the week and I did my homework between club visits. Most of it was engagement and luring as @Jax08 said.

I also did a “puppy” class after the first round of shots but that was for engagement around distractions and exposure. I pretty much ignored the “OB” things taught and did what I was doing in club but in a different environment. The foundation taught in that “puppy” class was not good for Schutzhund OB. Especially bad sits and heeling. Knowing more now about training and having more skill, I will probably skip any pet focused classes for the next pup. 

At around 3 months, I started advanced AKC Obedience classes taught with the goal of CD title. That sequence of courses taught proper sits, fold downs, etc. It was a high precision OB and most of it transfers very well to Schutzhund. Finding a class like that might be difficult.


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## SuperAndre

Jax08 said:


> Interesting. why did you choose this litter? You were planning on doing sport, right?


After talking with David who recommended Carmen and Sheena I was very impressed. I talked to Sheena back and fourth for months and then gave Carmen a call who told me more about Nog who is out of some of her dogs and she knows all the pedigrees and dogs. She was telling me about the great trainability, focus, workability of all of her dogs and specifically puppies which had me very impressed. I then talked to Sheena and she said she would get the right pup for me. But mostly after talking to Carmen for an hour had me sold on getting a pup from them, Carmen knows so much and really wants the best for her dogs and the breed in general.

All of Carmens dogs have been able to work in the various areas. She has bred some which were great service dogs which were re-evaluated every year and passing again and again. She said Nog's father was an amazing tracker and so was Jadzeas. I definitely did not do her or her dogs justice in this paragraph but I am very confident in this breeding and the upcoming ones!


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## Jax08

@SuperAndre - ahh...so you didn't choose because of the pedigree or knowledge of the dogs, but on recommendations. Got it. Thanks


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## SuperAndre

Jax08 said:


> @SuperAndre - ahh...so you didn't choose because of the pedigree or knowledge of the dogs, but on recommendations. Got it. Thanks


No? I contacted them because of recommendations from @David Winners . Carmen bred Nogs mother's father, and all of the Carmspack dogs are well known and perform above the standard GSD. Carmen was apart of creating GSD Temperament test for the CKC and basically a long time to the breed. 

I am sure David and @Saphire could add to what I have mentioned as they have dealt with Carmen longer than I have.


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## Bearshandler

AnisL said:


> Maybe I should discuss it with the IPO trainers and they can send me somewhere


That is what I would do? I don’t know what kind of socializing you are looking to do, but it sounds like more of a pet thing. You don’t need to take your puppy out to play with a bunch of other different dogs. Doing that could actually lead to some other issues.


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## Jax08

lol I know who Carmen is. I was curious to know what you saw in the pedigree that made you want one. You answered the question. I'm really not that invested.


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## AnisL

SuperAndre said:


> Cool cool me too. Which litter?
> I am going with Nog and Jadzea


Ah Amazing me too Nog x Jadzea It will be great to see them evolve!


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## AnisL

CeraDean said:


> I did OB foundation at club from 10 weeks old. That gave my pup a few weeks to settle in his new home. At club, my TD gave me things to practice through the week and I did my homework between club visits. Most of it was engagement and luring as @Jax08 said.
> 
> I also did a “puppy” class after the first round of shots but that was for engagement around distractions and exposure. I pretty much ignored the “OB” things taught and did what I was doing in club but in a different environment. The foundation taught in that “puppy” class was not good for Schutzhund OB. Especially bad sits and heeling. Knowing more now about training and having more skill, I will probably skip any pet focused classes for the next pup.
> 
> At around 3 months, I started advanced AKC Obedience classes taught with the goal of CD title. That sequence of courses taught proper sits, fold downs, etc. It was a high precision OB and most of it transfers very well to Schutzhund. Finding a class like that might be difficult.


There is a obedience club near me that offer courses similar to those you are talking about I think, but to qualify looks like we first have to do the regular obedience class..

The website says: "For teams (both handler and dog) that have graduated from our Companion Pro class. To prepare for CKC Obedience Competition and to perfect previously learned behaviours and teach new ones such as retrieving, jumping on cue and scent discrimination. You can train for fun or to prepare for competition, it’s up to you!"


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## CeraDean

AnisL said:


> There is a obedience club near me that offer courses similar to those you are talking about I think, but to qualify looks like we first have to do the regular obedience class..
> 
> The website says: "For teams (both handler and dog) that have graduated from our Companion Pro class. To prepare for CKC Obedience Competition and to perfect previously learned behaviours and teach new ones such as retrieving, jumping on cue and scent discrimination. You can train for fun or to prepare for competition, it’s up to you!"


That might work or might not 🤷‍♀️ In your position, I would probably focus on finding a good club / TD / personal trainer and they might be able to suggest a class that would not interfere with Schutzhund. The advanced OB course was suggested to me by my TD.

There are people that have responded on this thread that are much more experienced than me. But I thought I would add the prospective from a novice handler.


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## AnisL

CeraDean said:


> That might work or might not 🤷‍♀️ In your position, I would probably focus on finding a good club / TD / personal trainer and they might be able to suggest a class that would not interfere with Schutzhund. The advanced OB course was suggested to me by my TD.
> 
> There are people that have responded on this thread that are much more experienced than me. But I thought I would add the prospective from a novice handler.


I will, like it was suggested higher join IPO groups and find an experience trainer in my area and go from there..

Thanks a lot


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## Roscoe618

Does Carmspack have a website?


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## SuperAndre

Roscoe618 said:


> Does Carmspack have a website?







__





Fraserglen Kennels - Ontario German Shepherd Breeders


Fraserglen Kennels Reg’d has been breeding German Shepherds who are “ready” for over 25 years, offering German Shepherd puppies, studs, and females across Ontario & Canada.




fraserglenkennels.com





Nog x Jadzea litter deposits are full but another pair will be bred in February.


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## Steve Strom

AnisL said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I'm hopefully getting a working line pup from a reputable breeder this spring and I want to get into sport right away.
> There are a couple of IPO clubs near me that I'm looking at but I was also wondering if I should do puppy class before.
> 
> I can do basic obedience myself but with a working line dog I want to do things right. I don't want to create any habits or mix training methods that will confuse the dog or hurt his potential in sport.
> 
> Should I do puppy class from 2 to say 3-4 months and then start him on IPO or should I just start him right away at 8 weeks with the IPO? Will the IPO cover basic obedience outside sport?
> 
> Thank you!


Since you and Andre are both looking for dogs for something specific, did you guys visit any clubs and speak to people about their dogs? I'm a show me type when it comes to dogs. I put importance on the two dogs being bred, more then previous dogs in the pedigree. Has anyone actually seen the two dogs in this breeding do anything relevant to what you want for sport?


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## AnisL

Steve Strom said:


> Since you and Andre are both looking for dogs for something specific, did you guys visit any clubs and speak to people about their dogs? I'm a show me type when it comes to dogs. I put importance on the two dogs being bred, more then previous dogs in the pedigree. Has anyone actually seen the two dogs in this breeding do anything relevant to what you want for sport?


From my part this is going to be my first experience in dog sports, I owned show dogo argentinos mostly before. I wanted a dog that comes from a line that has a record of sport but to be balanced enough to be a family dog. My involvement in sport is purely for bonding and giving the dog purpose and explore that functional side of them.

In show, I will look for a puppy that comes from champions and get me first choice in a litter that is going to be as close to the breed standard and with as much potential as possible, because if I got to that I would love the dog to be competitive at a high level.

Following the same logic if I wanted to win nationals at the highest level of IGP I would have done things differently


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## Steve Strom

Don't get me wrong, I hope you get a great National level dog. Its just that I can tell you from experience, with trialing at any level, passing is a lot more fun then failing.


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## AnisL

Steve Strom said:


> Don't get me wrong, I hope you get a great National level dog. Its just that I can tell you from experience, with trialing at any level, passing is a lot more fun then failing.


No you made a valid point and I can imagine nobody likes to fail lol. I've been talking to people involved in the sport and like you, they say to join a club even before choosing a pup, that some of them would have done different when they first started if they knew.. even the IPO club near me require 4 visits to even consider applications. 

So I'm certainly getting into a world that I don't quite understand yet and having a versatile dog that can adapt to whatever direction I end up following is important.


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## Beystar

Always recommend going with "specialized" training/trainers if that is the future for the dog. Find a place that can customize your pups training to his/her intended purpose in the future

Lane
Dog Training Institute Dallas


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## Steve Strom

AnisL said:


> No you made a valid point and I can imagine nobody likes to fail lol. I've been talking to people involved in the sport and like you, they say to join a club even before choosing a pup, that some of them would have done different when they first started if they knew.. even the IPO club near me require 4 visits to even consider applications.
> 
> So I'm certainly getting into a world that I don't quite understand yet and having a versatile dog that can adapt to whatever direction I end up following is important.


What it comes down to for someone like me is you see what types of dog and how they do things that will be fun vs what's going to be too much work. You see what a dog is like when they come off the field and how they interact with their owner. I'll bet the main thing people would do different is get a "better" dog, Lol.


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## AnisL

Steve Strom said:


> What it comes down to for someone like me is you see what types of dog and how they do things that will be fun vs what's going to be too much work. You see what a dog is like when they come off the field and how they interact with their owner. I'll bet the main thing people would do different is get a "better" dog, Lol.


Haha I get it, maybe I'll post impressions after my first visit. What I know for now is that I don't want a neurotic dog with excessive drive and no off switch, that is guarding against everything and can turn out to be frustrated in my hands... even if he is world champion material, I am no world champion handler lol. I need a dog that can just be a dog


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## SuperAndre

AnisL said:


> Haha I get it, maybe I'll post impressions after my first visit. What I know for now is that I don't want a neurotic dog with excessive drive and no off switch, that is guarding against everything and can turn out to be frustrated in my hands... even if he is world champion material, I am no world champion handler lol. I need a dog that can just be a dog


Are you picking the pup or will Sheena?


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## Jax08

AnisL said:


> . What I know for now is that I don't want a neurotic dog with excessive drive and no off switch, that is guarding against everything and can turn out to be frustrated in my hands... even if he is world champion material,


soooo....nothing about that description says "world champion material". Just for you information. If anyone told you that, they lied.


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## AnisL

SuperAndre said:


> Are you picking the pup or will Sheena?


She told me she is most likely going to have a few options tailored to me to choose from


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## Steve Strom

AnisL said:


> She told me she is most likely going to have a few options tailored to me to choose from


You're going to go in person and have a choice of different pups?


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## AnisL

Steve Strom said:


> You're going to go in person and have a choice of different pups?


 Yes I'm going in person and I will let the breeder direct my choice


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## Steve Strom

Can you go and see the dam and sire before that?


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## AnisL

Steve Strom said:


> Can you go and see the dam and sire before that?


My plan was to go when they are born, check the dame and sire and then again to pick up (Long drive)


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## Steve Strom

I'd like to see them before the puppies are born. Get an idea of her temperament before there's a litter of puppies influencing it. Its interesting to see how she is with you and her pups, with you having an idea of how she is the rest of the time. I wouldn't be too bothered by the male not being real accepting of you on his property. If he is, fine. If not maybe she's willing to meet you somewhere neutral for you to see him.


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## AnisL

Steve Strom said:


> I'd like to see them before the puppies are born. Get an idea of her temperament before there's a litter of puppies influencing it. Its interesting to see how she is with you and her pups, with you having an idea of how she is the rest of the time. I wouldn't be too bothered by the male not being real accepting of you on his property. If he is, fine. If not maybe she's willing to meet you somewhere neutral for you to see him.


Right, then maybe I'll schedule a visit before! This whole Covid thing just makes things more complicated @SuperAndre care to join??


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## Steve Strom

The more you guys can see for yourself, the better. At the very least it can make it clear what someone means when they describe anything related to drives or nerve. Social, civil, anything you may have read or are being told.


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## SuperAndre

AnisL said:


> Right, then maybe I'll schedule a visit before! This whole Covid thing just makes things more complicated @SuperAndre care to join??


I’m not visiting. Too far and with covid it’s really inconvenient. Otherwise I would! Sheena is picking the pup for me.


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## Chip Blasiole

You keep mentioning IGP. Is that something you want to dabble in or compete beyond club level? I think you can get a very nice dog from the breeding you selected but might be disappointed if you want to compete in IGP beyond club level. I consider the lines you are looking at to be working lines and not bred for high level IGP.


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## AnisL

SuperAndre said:


> I’m not visiting. Too far and with covid it’s really inconvenient. Otherwise I would! Sheena is picking the pup for me.


Ok yeah, I’ll go If I can get a visit..


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## AnisL

Chip Blasiole said:


> You keep mentioning IGP. Is that something you want to dabble in or compete beyond club level? I think you can get a very nice dog from the breeding you selected but might be disappointed if you want to compete in IGP beyond club level. I consider the lines you are looking at to be working lines and not bred for high level IGP.


Well the IGP idea came as I wanted to give the dog a purpose, put a working dog to work right? and since IGP involves various disciplines and looks like it can build a well rounded dog it’s appealing to me. That’s not the main reason I’m getting the dog. How far I want to get is wherever we can get having fun and creating a strong bond, if that’s club level I’m just fine with it. I have no interest in putting myself or the dog through a stressful pursuit.


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## Elisabeth Ann Parent

I am in Ontario and have been involved in SCHH/IGP for about 9 years. I think I have seen 1 of Carmens dog trial.

I can't speak on a program when I haven't seen the dogs work. I go to almost all of the SW Ontario trials. Work with most the decoys out this way at some point too.

If you want to IGP then talk to people in the sport. Ask around. Ask hard questions - it's your 10-15 year commitment.

If your in Ontario, your welcome to speak with me about involved IGP competitors and breeders with suitable dogs for a new handler. There aren't many but a few I would highly recommend.


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## AnisL

Elisabeth Ann Parent said:


> I am in Ontario and have been involved in SCHH/IGP for about 9 years. I think I have seen 1 of Carmens dog trial.
> 
> I can't speak on a program when I haven't seen the dogs work. I go to almost all of the SW Ontario trials. Work with most the decoys out this way at some point too.
> 
> If you want to IGP then talk to people in the sport. Ask around. Ask hard questions - it's your 10-15 year commitment.
> 
> If your in Ontario, your welcome to speak with me about involved IGP competitors and breeders with suitable dogs for a new handler. There aren't many but a few I would highly recommend.


Thank you for the advice! Unfortunately I’m in Montreal but yes well like I said I certainly want to get involved in some IGP but I don’t know how competitive or if I want to compete on a serious level


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## Bearshandler

Chip Blasiole said:


> You keep mentioning IGP. Is that something you want to dabble in or compete beyond club level? I think you can get a very nice dog from the breeding you selected but might be disappointed if you want to compete in IGP beyond club level. I consider the lines you are looking at to be working lines and not bred for high level IGP.


What are the traits you expect to see?


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## Chip Blasiole

I don't think you will see a high enough level of prey drive to get flashy obedience. Tracking and protection phase shouldn't be an issue, which can take some of the fun/satisfaction out of training depending on your goals. Primarily DDR pedigree.


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## AnisL

Chip Blasiole said:


> I don't think you will see a high enough level of prey drive to get flashy obedience. Tracking and protection phase shouldn't be an issue, which can take some of the fun/satisfaction out of training depending on your goals. Primarily DDR pedigree.


The breeder talks about how the sire's nose is good, quote from the website: 
"Nog displays excellent natural air scenting. His puppies could be considered for activities sport/work that require a good nose."
So his pups should be decent at tracking and for the protection part, well from what I undestand from their record and the heritage of Carmen's dogs, that is what they were bred for. 
Now in this particular litter the dame/sire are not titled, and the more I know the more I understand that for IGP people it's unthinkable if you want to dabble in sport.. I trust that a good breeder is breeding enough drive into his dogs to secure a basic level of obedience and control. I am confident that hopefully we can secure IGP1 and have fun doing it.


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## SuperAndre

AnisL said:


> The breeder talks about how the sire's nose is good, quote from the website:
> "Nog displays excellent natural air scenting. His puppies could be considered for activities sport/work that require a good nose."
> So his pups should be decent at tracking and for the protection part, well from what I undestand from their record and the heritage of Carmen's dogs, that is what they were bred for.
> Now in this particular litter the dame/sire are not titled, and the more I know the more I understand that for IGP people it's unthinkable if you want to dabble in sport.. I trust that a good breeder is breeding enough drive into his dogs to secure a basic level of obedience and control. I am confident that hopefully we can secure IGP1 and have fun doing it.


Carmen said Nog's pedigree is extremely easily trained, high intelligence, and had an extreme need to please its owner (she used the example of Carmspack Nick who is seen being handled by a child). Carmen said that dogs in Nog's pedigree have excelled in IGP but most importantly working tasks. I would be surprised if these pups did not excel as well, but time will tell. Personally, if the pup I get does not have interest in Personal Protection then I will focus on tracking / scent work. The entire pedigree on Nog's side is said to be genetic trackers and Nog seems to do well with "air scenting". I am flexible if things do not go as planned and mainly am focused on just having fun!


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## Bearshandler

AnisL said:


> The breeder talks about how the sire's nose is good, quote from the website:
> "Nog displays excellent natural air scenting. His puppies could be considered for activities sport/work that require a good nose."
> So his pups should be decent at tracking and for the protection part, well from what I undestand from their record and the heritage of Carmen's dogs, that is what they were bred for.
> Now in this particular litter the dame/sire are not titled, and the more I know the more I understand that for IGP people it's unthinkable if you want to dabble in sport.. I trust that a good breeder is breeding enough drive into his dogs to secure a basic level of obedience and control. I am confident that hopefully we can secure IGP1 and have fun doing it.


Do you know what the hips and elbows of these two are like?


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## AnisL

Bearshandler said:


> Do you know what the hips and elbows of these two are like?


"Both Jadzea and Nog’s hips and elbows have been informally examined and given a passing grade. Formal certification is pending. Both dogs are DM clear. The puppies are expected to be healthy, within the breed standard, heavy boned with stable temperaments. Previous breeding displayed superior natural focus and trainability. They will make excellent sport/working dogs and remarkable companions."


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## AnisL

SuperAndre said:


> I am flexible if things do not go as planned and mainly am focused on just having fun!


That is the main thing, let's not get caught up in a never ending what can or can't they do best. For me having a well bred stable confident solid dog that is not going to shy away from any activity we decide to do toghether is most important. Competition if any is extra


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## Chip Blasiole

That sounds realistic. It has been a long time, but I have had discussions with Carmen and know her breeding goals are for stable balanced working dogs and not high prey drive sport dogs. That is why I asked earlier about you goals if you decide to try IGP. IGP is more about training and the appearance of a dog’s performance and those expectation have changed a lot over the years. The DDR dogs were not bred for sport but certainly can be protective. The sire of my dog is not titled, but he has very good prey drive and aggression. I was looking for a breeding where the at least some of the pups had enough prey drive to make sport enjoyable, enough aggression to be civil but a higher threshold for defense and weaned at 33.5 days.


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## AnisL

Chip Blasiole said:


> That sounds realistic. It has been a long time, but I have had discussions with Carmen and know her breeding goals are for stable balanced working dogs and not high prey drive sport dogs. That is why I asked earlier about you goals if you decide to try IGP. IGP is more about training and the appearance of a dog’s performance and those expectation have changed a lot over the years. The DDR dogs were not bred for sport but certainly can be protective. The sire of my dog is not titled, but he has very good prey drive and aggression. I was looking for a breeding where the at least some of the pups had enough prey drive to make sport enjoyable, enough aggression to be civil but a higher threshold for defense and weaned at 33.5 days.


There is a litter coming of Gus, the breeder and people that know the dog told be that his a serious civil dog, you can ask people that have one of his puppies how the prey drive is. As for the 33.5 days that’s so specific lol what is your goal with that? You want to separate the puppy or just move him to solid food? I guess It will depend on the breeder, I can imagine that most breeders will not accept as it is not the norm. I had a 30 days dogo argentino sent to me from argentina once I had him for 2 years, He was still socialized but eventually had to give him to a hunter in spain let’s just say city life was not what he was created for..I don’t know how much of that was due to the 30days


----------



## Chip Blasiole

The 33.5 days for weaning was for berno. I have no idea or concerns when my dog was weaned.


----------



## January

AnisL said:


> "Both Jadzea and Nog’s hips and elbows have been informally examined and given a passing grade. Formal certification is pending. Both dogs are DM clear. The puppies are expected to be healthy, within the breed standard, heavy boned with stable temperaments. Previous breeding displayed superior natural focus and trainability. They will make excellent sport/working dogs and remarkable companions."


Is it common for dogs to be bred before getting their final OFA results? Considering genetically predisposition and informal examination


----------



## SuperAndre

January said:


> Is it common for dogs to be bred before getting their final OFA results? Considering genetically predisposition and informal examination


They both have pre-lim. I think both of the parents of the sire and dam of this litter had good rating which more than likely mean they will. I could be wrong.


----------



## Jax08

January said:


> Is it common for dogs to be bred before getting their final OFA results? Considering genetically predisposition and informal examination


Lol. No.


----------



## SuperAndre

Jax08 said:


> Lol. No.


Many of the breeders I talked to in Ontario do not do official OFA ratings.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

A vet who is very qualified at reading X-rays can give same results as OFA. His/her opinion is just not certified.


----------



## Bearshandler

SuperAndre said:


> They both have pre-lim. I think both of the parents of the sire and dam of this litter had good rating which more than likely mean they will. I could be wrong.


I wouldn't buy a puppy out of parents with just a prelim. Granted, the S.V. will certify hips and elbows at a year and OFA won't until 2 years of age. These two dogs have been bred multiple times which makes it curious to me to say that they are pending still. Different people here have their own ways of going about it. The simple answer if they haven't been certified is to ask to see the x-rays and ask a vet experienced in hip and elbow problems to give you their opinion.


----------



## Jax08

SuperAndre said:


> Many of the breeders I talked to in Ontario do not do official OFA ratings.


How interesting. First sign of a questionable breeder is not having official ratings thru the OFA, SV or pennhip.


----------



## Elisabeth Ann Parent

SuperAndre said:


> Many of the breeders I talked to in Ontario do not do official OFA ratings.


Not sure which breeders you are referring too.... The ones I know do either SV, OFA or both....


----------



## Elisabeth Ann Parent

Chip Blasiole said:


> A vet who is very qualified at reading X-rays can give same results as OFA. His/her opinion is just not certified.


Not really.... But ok. 

Also, most breeders I know prefer SV.


----------



## Elisabeth Ann Parent

Jax08 said:


> How interesting. First sign of a questionable breeder is not having official ratings thru the OFA, SV or pennhip.


Ding, ding, ding.

Funny how the people who are active in the dog world in the exact area this breeding is happening is being ignored. 

Funny how in 10 years in the same area I have seen 1 dog compete at club level and have spoken to local K9 teams who have no clue who these dogs are.... But hey... Enjoy your pup.


----------



## Jax08

Elisabeth Ann Parent said:


> Not really.... But ok.
> 
> Also, most breeders I know prefer SV.


I think more are going to SV with the back ratings.


----------



## Elisabeth Ann Parent

Jax08 said:


> I think more are going to SV with the back ratings.


For sure.

After having a dog with spine issues, we will be doing SV with Freya once everything opens up again (have had to reschedule xrays like 3 times due to lockdowns...).


----------



## Steve Strom

I wonder if his Sch1 is pending?


----------



## Elisabeth Ann Parent

Delayed by covid.


----------



## Steve Strom

SuperAndre said:


> Many of the breeders I talked to in Ontario do not do official OFA ratings.


Many? Thats kinda surprising to hear. There are always certain practices with pure bred dogs that breeders, breed clubs, most any organization involved in the breed put together and agree to, especially involving health checks. Even if they do go about it differently in other countries, I would still expect them to follow whats standard where they are. Short cuts and just take my word for it in one thing, always leaves me wondering about everything.


----------



## Elisabeth Ann Parent

Been involved in the breed and IGP for 10 years and trust me with breeders who are out there working their dogs... It is the standard. 

Not sure where that comment comes from.... Maybe hanging with the wrong crowd.


----------



## January

SuperAndre said:


> They both have pre-lim. I think both of the parents of the sire and dam of this litter had good rating which more than likely mean they will. I could be wrong.


I looked at this pairing, the “passing grade” seemed to imply it could be anywhere from “fair” to “excellent”. I couldn’t find the dogs on the OFA for preliminaries, however I’m not sure if they’re doing them through Virginia Tech like they’ve said some of their other dogs have been. These dogs have been highly recommended on this board so I found it confusing as it’s also recommended to choose breeders that have titled parents with certified hips and elbows. It seems difficult to make an informed decision on purchasing a puppy, as a buyer you want to make sure you have the greatest odds of getting a stable, healthy dog that can do what you want them to do. I guess it comes back to getting out there, asking questions of people who are using the dogs in the field you want, and trying to make as informed a decision as possible.


----------



## AnisL

January said:


> I looked at this pairing, the “passing grade” seemed to imply it could be anywhere from “fair” to “excellent”. I couldn’t find the dogs on the OFA for preliminaries, however I’m not sure if they’re doing them through Virginia Tech like they’ve said some of their other dogs have been. These dogs have been highly recommended on this board so I found it confusing as it’s also recommended to choose breeders that have titled parents with certified hips and elbows. It seems difficult to make an informed decision on purchasing a puppy, as a buyer you want to make sure you have the greatest odds of getting a stable, healthy dog that can do what you want them to do. I guess it comes back to getting out there, asking questions of people who are using the dogs in the field you want, and trying to make as informed a decision as possible.


Your comment and the ones above raised some important points. When choosing a puppy the first thing I think of is asking for recommendations, but in the internet you can find a hundred different people with a hundred different experiences and plans with their dogs.

Then there's the facts: Certifications, health checks, titles.. that are just black and white, you have them or you don't.

For someone looking for a companion, this things might be irrelevant but for someone like me that is looking for the best possible option to commit to for the next 10+ years, it would just be irresponsible to ignore these things.

I'm sure the dogs in this litter will produce excellent dogs, I just never been the type to gamble and hope for the best. I sure am the type to put all the chances on my side, and getting a puppy from titled, OFA or SV certified dogs, that are active and known in the circles I'm planing on joining si just that.

That's why I decided to withdraw from this litter and allow myself more time, my plan is to visit the clubs around me and get to know people and their dogs, get a real life feel for what I'm getting myself into then make a decision with the criteria mentioned above as baseline.

Thank you all for helping!


----------



## SuperAndre

January said:


> I looked at this pairing, the “passing grade” seemed to imply it could be anywhere from “fair” to “excellent”. I couldn’t find the dogs on the OFA for preliminaries, however I’m not sure if they’re doing them through Virginia Tech like they’ve said some of their other dogs have been. These dogs have been highly recommended on this board so I found it confusing as it’s also recommended to choose breeders that have titled parents with certified hips and elbows. It seems difficult to make an informed decision on purchasing a puppy, as a buyer you want to make sure you have the greatest odds of getting a stable, healthy dog that can do what you want them to do. I guess it comes back to getting out there, asking questions of people who are using the dogs in the field you want, and trying to make as informed a decision as possible.


I have been in contact with Sheena the breeder of Fraserglen for a while and Carmen who is the mentor of Sheena who was THE massive reason for my decision. I myself have been searching for a GOOD breeder for 10+ months and I have high expectations which has made things extremely difficult to find the right breeder. I have talked to 15+ breeders across Ontario, Quebec, BC, Saskatchewan which have all been helpful and great but some were better than others. None of the highly respected breeders I was recommended cut it for me OR I felt uncomfortable moving forward with them. In addition, I talked with clubs, breeders, trainers, forums, respected members of these forums and every single person had a different idea of where you should get a dog, one person would highly recommend a place and the other would say that same place was horrendous. To me, one of the most important things when finding a breeder is trusting them and their decisions. As I mentioned previously, I was in contact with Sheena for a while before making a decision asking numerous questions, asking others with dogs from her about their experience, and all the feedback was EXACTLY what I wanted to hear. Everyone who has a puppy out of Fraserglen all said amazing things about their dogs, never was there a bad review unlike many of the other breeders I talked with. The breeding I made a deposit with has been done before and the pups are exactly the kind of dog that I want.

I was making a decision between two breeders before I decided going with Sheena and Carmen but what made me go with Fraserglen was the fact that Carmen tells you how it is and shocked me with the amount of knowledge she has about each dog she has bred and their lines. After talking with Carmen I had no doubt in my mind about how this was the right place for me. Something that really stuck with me about the titles was that the sport was not the dogs real purpose, the GSD was bred to guard and heard sheep. So if that is the case why has the sport of IPO/SCHH/IGP made or broken a good dog with the right temperament with the same workability as the breed was intended. Anyways to me, I feel more than comfortable going with Sheena and know I will be getting a good dog.

You mention making the best decision possible and this is where I felt the most comfortable, I trust that Sheena and Carmen do the best for their dogs and that my puppy will be healthy... NO doubt about it.


----------



## Elisabeth Ann Parent

AnisL said:


> Your comment and the ones above raised some important points. When choosing a puppy the first thing I think of is asking for recommendations, but in the internet you can find a hundred different people with a hundred different experiences and plans with their dogs.
> 
> Then there's the facts: Certifications, health checks, titles.. that are just black and white, you have them or you don't.
> 
> For someone looking for a companion, this things might be irrelevant but for someone like me that is looking for the best possible option to commit to for the next 10+ years, it would just be irresponsible to ignore these things.
> 
> I'm sure the dogs in this litter will produce excellent dogs, I just never been the type to gamble and hope for the best. I sure am the type to put all the chances on my side, and getting a puppy from titled, OFA or SV certified dogs, that are active and known in the circles I'm planing on joining si just that.
> 
> That's why I decided to withdraw from this litter and allow myself more time, my plan is to visit the clubs around me and get to know people and their dogs, get a real life feel for what I'm getting myself into then make a decision with the criteria mentioned above as baseline.
> 
> Thank you all for helping!


I think this is an excellent idea. Please keep us updated as you navigate the working dog world in your area and continue your puppy search.

I


----------



## AnisL

SuperAndre said:


> I have been in contact with Sheena the breeder of Fraserglen for a while and Carmen who is the mentor of Sheena who was THE massive reason for my decision. I myself have been searching for a GOOD breeder for 10+ months and I have high expectations which has made things extremely difficult to find the right breeder. I have talked to 15+ breeders across Ontario, Quebec, BC, Saskatchewan which have all been helpful and great but some were better than others. None of the highly respected breeders I was recommended cut it for me OR I felt uncomfortable moving forward with them. In addition, I talked with clubs, breeders, trainers, forums, respected members of these forums and every single person had a different idea of where you should get a dog, one person would highly recommend a place and the other would say that same place was horrendous. To me, one of the most important things when finding a breeder is trusting them and their decisions. As I mentioned previously, I was in contact with Sheena for a while before making a decision asking numerous questions, asking others with dogs from her about their experience, and all the feedback was EXACTLY what I wanted to hear. Everyone who has a puppy out of Fraserglen all said amazing things about their dogs, never was there a bad review unlike many of the other breeders I talked with. The breeding I made a deposit with has been done before and the pups are exactly the kind of dog that I want.
> 
> I was making a decision between two breeders before I decided going with Sheena and Carmen but what made me go with Fraserglen was the fact that Carmen tells you how it is and shocked me with the amount of knowledge she has about each dog she has bred and their lines. After talking with Carmen I had no doubt in my mind about how this was the right place for me. Something that really stuck with me about the titles was that the sport was not the dogs real purpose, the GSD was bred to guard and heard sheep. So if that is the case why has the sport of IPO/SCHH/IGP made or broken a good dog with the right temperament with the same workability as the breed was intended. Anyways to me, I feel more than comfortable going with Sheena and know I will be getting a good dog.
> 
> You mention making the best decision possible and this is where I felt the most comfortable, I trust that Sheena and Carmen do the best for their dogs and that my puppy will be healthy... NO doubt about it.


I understand a big part of choosing a breeder is about feeling and trust. Also new owners, myself included, make emotional decisions. because getting a shadow to share 10 years of your life with is emotional. 

I haven't had a third of the exchanges that you had with Sheena or Carmen, never seen the dogs, never been to the kennel.. at the end of the day I don't know these people and I have to trust the opinions of people that I don't know either. 

Maybe it's my personality, maybe what I do, I'm a pilot and I like clear procedures facts and checklists and for this litter for now I only had words. 
I would never dare to speak badly about this breeder or their dogs I trust their work they come highly recommended and maybe they are doing an amazing job and in a few years they will get titles and certifications and recognition in all circles of the breed but for now I won't be part of a project, even if it's the succession of a great name..


----------



## AnisL

Elisabeth Ann Parent said:


> I think this is an excellent idea. Please keep us updated as you navigate the working dog world in your area and continue your puppy search.
> 
> I


Will do, thank you!


----------



## Jen84

I'll just throw this out there for anyone interested:









Why is it so necessary to some to title a dog?


There are plenty of untitled dogs by highly skilled breeders and handlers with some of the best genetics possible that are not remotely backyard breeders. “The one eyed man is king in the land of the blind.”




www.germanshepherds.com


----------



## SuperAndre

AnisL said:


> I understand a big part of choosing a breeder is about feeling and trust. Also new owners, myself included, make emotional decisions. because getting a shadow to share 10 years of your life with is emotional.
> 
> I haven't had a third of the exchanges that you had with Sheena or Carmen, never seen the dogs, never been to the kennel.. at the end of the day I don't know these people and I have to trust the opinions of people that I don't know either.
> 
> Maybe it's my personality, maybe what I do, I'm a pilot and I like clear procedures facts and checklists and for this litter for now I only had words.
> I would never dare to speak badly about this breeder or their dogs I trust their work they come highly recommended and maybe they are doing an amazing job and in a few years they will get titles and certifications and recognition in all circles of the breed but for now I won't be part of a project, even if it's the succession of a great name..


I understand where you are coming from. I am sure you have considered this but I might as well mention it as it was nice to have at the back of my mind when making my decision; everyone in this post or others are people you do not know personally just as you mentioned, all with different ideas, but what makes one persons idea or decision/opinion more important? At the end of the day it is your decision as this will be YOUR friend for the next 10+ years and I wish you luck on your journey of finding a breeder that you feel more comfortable with as I have no intention of pushing you to go with someone you are not comfortable with. 

If you have indeed withdrawn from the litter you should look at Vom Haus Le in Montreal, they maybe up your ally and they were also my back-up if things with Fraserglen did not work out.


----------



## David Winners

An important thing to note is that the goals of Carmen and Sheena have always been to produce working dogs, not sport dogs. That doesn't mean they can't do well in SCH, but they are not podium dogs. My dog Valor is much better suited for military/LE than SCH. 

I would encourage everyone to go see dogs. Watch them work. Talk to their owners/handlers. Learn what you like and along the way you will find out where to get what you like.


----------



## Steve Strom

AnisL said:


> I understand a big part of choosing a breeder is about feeling and trust. Also new owners, myself included, make emotional decisions. because getting a shadow to share 10 years of your life with is emotional.
> 
> I haven't had a third of the exchanges that you had with Sheena or Carmen, never seen the dogs, never been to the kennel.. at the end of the day I don't know these people and I have to trust the opinions of people that I don't know either.
> 
> Maybe it's my personality, maybe what I do, I'm a pilot and I like clear procedures facts and checklists and for this litter for now I only had words.
> I would never dare to speak badly about this breeder or their dogs I trust their work they come highly recommended and maybe they are doing an amazing job and in a few years they will get titles and certifications and recognition in all circles of the breed but for now I won't be part of a project, even if it's the succession of a great name..


My advise is always the same. Meet people and see the dogs. Even if you've never owned a dog of any kind, believe your eyes. When it comes to dogs, blind faith isn't the way I'll ever go. Dogs don't always work out, a lot of mine haven't in one way or another but even with that, It was easier for me to enjoy them knowing I wasn't mislead or sold on fanciful stories. I don't want to look back and say " Why weren't the xrays just submitted ?" "What else did I fall for?"


----------



## Steve Strom

Jen84 said:


> I'll just throw this out there for anyone interested:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why is it so necessary to some to title a dog?
> 
> 
> There are plenty of untitled dogs by highly skilled breeders and handlers with some of the best genetics possible that are not remotely backyard breeders. “The one eyed man is king in the land of the blind.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.germanshepherds.com


You've probably heard that old saying about the best dog in the world is laying in someone's back yard right now. And thats exactly what he should be sold as, a great dog who lays in the back yard.


----------



## Jen84

Steve Strom said:


> You've probably heard that old saying about the best dog in the world is laying in someone's back yard right now. *And thats exactly what he should sold as, a great dog who lays in the back yard.*


Sorry, can you please clarify in english?


----------



## Bearshandler

AnisL said:


> Maybe it's my personality, maybe what I do, I'm a pilot and I like clear procedures facts and checklists


I'm a nuke. I don't know if it is who I am or the work, but I am also like this.


----------



## AnisL

Bearshandler said:


> I'm a nuke. I don't know if it is who I am or the work, but I am also like this.


REMOVED BY MOD

NO SWEARING

Thanks,

David
Mod team

Lol, Edit: Cool*


----------



## Chip Blasiole

SuperAndre said:


> Something that really stuck with me about the titles was that the sport was not the dogs real purpose, the GSD was bred to guard and heard sheep. So if that is the case why has the sport of IPO/SCHH/IGP made or broken a good dog with the right temperament with the same workability as the breed was intended.


The breed was originally bred to herd sheep but with industrialization, the need for having flocks of sheep and dogs to tend to them lost demand. The founder of the breed decided to promote the dog as a police and military dog. That is why years ago, people would call GSDs German police dogs. Schutzhund was originally a breed suitability test. As time went by and more inductive training methods starting being used, breeding practices changed to increase things like prey drive to facilitate newer training approaches which started a shift in the genetics of the working lines. Also keep in mind, there was not always the severe divide between show and working lines. Things snowballed from there and schutzhund/IGP became big business with people wanting dogs from top sport winning dogs. The other thing to consider is if you buy a working dog, what will his work be? If you are not a military or police dog handler, protections sports are about all that is left that has some semblance to man work. IMO, IGP has lead to a negative shift in genetics where it is harder and harder to find genetics for very good police dogs. I also don't think IGP challenges a dog in any significant way. There are pockets of people who breed for working dogs and some specifically for police dogs, and some top sport dog breeding can produce dogs capable of police service work, but that is increasingly becoming the minority due to the influence of sport. It is not a whole lot different than the promotion of the German show lines which devolved into essentially a separate breed, and which also have to have titles to be bred with papers, which tells you something. Those changes are a major reason for the popularity of the Malinois as a police and military dog. The pet market is also a factor because it increases the market but you can't sell strong dogs capable of police or military work to most pet families so the breed becomes more watered down. Most people who have strong Malinois will tell you they don't make good pets and need to be worked and handled by someone with experience. IMO, that breed is also starting to go the way of the GSD with the old style, aggressive Mals being selected away from in favor of extreme prey/hunt drive dogs who are still very effective but the shift might come back to bite the breed on its arse like with the GSD.


----------



## AnisL

@Bearshandler Does that level of precision seeking translate in your relationship with your dogs and their training?


----------



## Bearshandler

AnisL said:


> @Bearshandler Does that level of precision seeking translate in your relationship with your dogs and their training?


It very well could have. I don’t believe I should spend a lot of time doing something and not be good at, so I am very driven to improve my processes and the performance of my team. That definitely transfers over to training. If something isn’t the way I like with my dogs training, I get a knawing urge to fix it. The overall relationship is built on a love of animals and what I’ve learned as I’ve gone through dogs. Bear brought a very different temperament from the dogs I had before so pretty much everything with him as been a learning experience.


----------



## AnisL

Bearshandler said:


> It very well could have. I don’t believe I should spend a lot of time doing something and not be good at, so I am very driven to improve my processes and the performance of my team. That definitely transfers over to training. If something isn’t the way I like with my dogs training, I get a knawing urge to fix it. The overall relationship is built on a love of animals and what I’ve learned as I’ve gone through dogs. Bear brought a very different temperament from the dogs I had before so pretty much everything with him as been a learning experience.


Good to know. This is going to be my first experience training a dog for a goal not just for house manners and very basic obedience. I can be very hard on myself to learn and perform sometimes to obsession that’s why I think I need to be careful not putting that same pressure on the dog and just enjoy it


----------



## Steve Strom

AnisL said:


> Good to know. This is going to be my first experience training a dog for a goal not just for house manners and very basic obedience. I can be very hard on myself to learn and perform sometimes to obsession that’s why I think I need to be careful not putting that same pressure on the dog and just enjoy it


If you're having fun, your dog probably is too.


----------



## Bearshandler

AnisL said:


> Good to know. This is going to be my first experience training a dog for a goal not just for house manners and very basic obedience. I can be very hard on myself to learn and perform sometimes to obsession that’s why I think I need to be careful not putting that same pressure on the dog and just enjoy it


I’ll give you this opinion. You want a dog that will do well at schutzhund. You will have plenty of lessons to learn even then. You might learn more with a less ideal candidate, but you won’t enjoy the experience. You will also end up with a lot of moments where you see other dogs easily performing, and performing well, things it seems like your dog never will. You will still probably see that even with the best candidates, but you are far less likely to end up with a hopeless feeling. Schutzhund takes a lot of time and effort. The more you do it, the more serious you’ll probably take it. You specifically, not everyone else. Don’t handicap yourself from the beginning with the dog. Steve said something here and I’ll give my answer to the question. What I wish I knew from the beginning is how training would go and what would is needed and desired in a dog. So I could start with a better dog.


----------



## AlexLafram

Anyone who’s interested in following Kai’s journey through IPG is more than welcome too, I plan to title him in IPG, he’ is currently training with an experienced and successful trainer here in Ontario and so far the trainer has had nothing but quality comments about him, he’ doesn’t strike me as a person that is driving out 4-6 hours for a poorly dog that has zero capability, he also isn’t striking me as a person that would invite me down to train if he felt i was a waste of his efforts 
Kai is a Nog and Jadzea pup
He’s 15 weeks 
Maybe those who criticize the breeding pair or question it would enjoy seeing him navigating the sporting world


----------



## SuperAndre

AlexLafram said:


> Anyone who’s interested in following Kai’s journey through IPG is more than welcome too, I plan to title him in IPG, he’ is currently training with an experienced and successful trainer here in Ontario and so far the trainer has had nothing but quality comments about him, he’ doesn’t strike me as a person that is driving out 4-6 hours for a poorly dog that has zero capability, he also isn’t striking me as a person that would invite me down to train if he felt i was a waste of his efforts
> Kai is a Nog and Jadzea pup
> He’s 15 weeks
> Maybe those who criticize the breeding pair or question it would enjoy seeing him navigating the sporting world


I totally believe in Kai and do not question you, him, trainer, or the breeder in the slightest. But I am totally interested in seeing how he progresses!


----------



## AlexLafram

SuperAndre said:


> I totally believe in Kai and do not question you, him, trainer, or the breeder in the slightest. But I am totally interested in seeing how he progresses!


So am I!
He’s a sprocket rocket with potential !


----------



## Steve Strom

AlexLafram said:


> Anyone who’s interested in following Kai’s journey through IPG is more than welcome too, I plan to title him in IPG, he’ is currently training with an experienced and successful trainer here in Ontario and so far the trainer has had nothing but quality comments about him, he’ doesn’t strike me as a person that is driving out 4-6 hours for a poorly dog that has zero capability, he also isn’t striking me as a person that would invite me down to train if he felt i was a waste of his efforts
> Kai is a Nog and Jadzea pup
> He’s 15 weeks
> Maybe those who criticize the breeding pair or question it would enjoy seeing him navigating the sporting world


Hey Alex, I hope you succeed to whatever level you want and that you have as much fun as I did. My comments and advice will always be the same to someone looking for a dog to do anything specific like sport or whatever. 2 unproven dogs and a pedigree full of cgc's combined with "pending" not submitted 3mos ago xrays would not be where I'd be looking.


----------



## AlexLafram

Steve Strom said:


> Hey Alex, I hope you succeed to whatever level you want and that you have as much fun as I did. My comments and advice will always be the same to someone looking for a dog to do anything specific like sport or whatever. 2 unproven dogs and a pedigree full of cgc's combined with "pending" not submitted 3mos ago xrays would not be where I'd be looking.


Yeah I understand completely where you are coming from, I really was sincere in my post, if you are interested keep an eye out for the Kai progress- 
I will be upon recommendation from my trainer having him also x rayed at 6 months. 
let’s see how that goes


----------



## AlexLafram

And to add to that,
My trainer echoed exactly what you’ve said so it’s not like a news flash on my end however I can’t and he can’t ignore the potential and the confidence of my pup so we are certain a shiny bright future is in the cards!


----------



## SuperAndre

AlexLafram said:


> Yeah I understand completely where you are coming from, I really was sincere in my post, if you are interested keep an eye out for the Kai progress-
> I will be upon recommendation from my trainer having him also x rayed at 6 months.
> let’s see how that goes


I thought you could only get x ray done at 2.


----------



## AlexLafram

SuperAndre said:


> I thought you could only get x ray done at 2.


He is certain 6 months 
I will ask him the reason on it 
He also does at 2


----------



## Steve Strom

2 is for certification. You can have them evaluated earlier. It would generally be for some people maybe with an eye towards breeding or seriously competing so they aren't wasting the time on a dog that will have dysplasia. I would think 6mos may be a little early? I don't know for sure though, I've never done anything with serious thought towards breeding or competing.


----------



## SuperAndre

AlexLafram said:


> He is certain 6 months
> I will ask him the reason on it
> He also does at 2


Sounds good. It will be super in timing since I pick up my Nog pup in May making Kai around 8 months. Which makes me more excited because as he will be quite a good bit through his training. Definitely excited to see where he excels and hear all about the stories!!


----------



## AlexLafram

SuperAndre said:


> Sounds good. It will be super in timing since I pick up my Nog pup in May making Kai around 8 months. Which makes me more excited because as he will be quite a good bit through his training. Definitely excited to see where he excels and hear all about the stories!!


Me too! 
It’s a journey  
Let’s see how she goes


----------



## SuperAndre

AlexLafram said:


> Me too!
> It’s a journey
> Let’s see how she goes


Carmen told me when I inquired that Nog x Jadzea should have no issues working at whatever I wanted but would excel and do the best in scent work as her dogs seem to all be natural trackers.


----------



## AlexLafram

SuperAndre said:


> Carmen told me when I inquired that Nog x Jadzea should have no issues working at whatever I wanted but would excel and do the best in scent work as her dogs seem to all be natural trackers.



When I started a scent pad with Kai, I went over the recommended 10 minutes to let sit, actually it was more like an hour because I had emergency with a contractor that I needed to sort out and had to boot up the lap top, well when I finally got out there his nose hit the ground and he dug for his Kibbles, 
He’s dug thru a mountain of snow to find my daughter who was playing a game with us. 
He loves using his nose


----------



## SuperAndre

AlexLafram said:


> When I started a scent pad with Kai, I went over the recommended 10 minutes to let sit, actually it was more like an hour because I had emergency with a contractor that I needed to sort out and had to boot up the lap top, well when I finally got out there his nose hit the ground and he dug for his Kibbles,
> He’s dug thru a mountain of snow to find my daughter who was playing a game with us.
> He loves using his nose


Yea ! Sounds like fun. I have massive yards by my house perfect for tracking. Looking forward to it! Definitely excited to see the port training when you guys get there


----------



## AnisL

Bearshandler said:


> I’ll give you this opinion. You want a dog that will do well at schutzhund. You will have plenty of lessons to learn even then. You might learn more with a less ideal candidate, but you won’t enjoy the experience. You will also end up with a lot of moments where you see other dogs easily performing, and performing well, things it seems like your dog never will. You will still probably see that even with the best candidates, but you are far less likely to end up with a hopeless feeling. Schutzhund takes a lot of time and effort. The more you do it, the more serious you’ll probably take it. You specifically, not everyone else. Don’t handicap yourself from the beginning with the dog. Steve said something here and I’ll give my answer to the question. What I wish I knew from the beginning is how training would go and what would is needed and desired in a dog. So I could start with a better dog.


I understand that just getting a pup from proven healthy titled dogs doesn't win the battle of course but that's where I'll start. I also have to be careful picking the right dog for a new handler like me and be ready to put in the work.


----------



## SuperAndre

AnisL said:


> I understand that just getting a pup from proven healthy titled dogs doesn't win the battle of course but that's where I'll start. I also have to be careful picking the right dog for a new handler like me and be ready to put in the work.


Breeders can pick too!


----------



## AnisL

AlexLafram said:


> Anyone who’s interested in following Kai’s journey through IPG is more than welcome too, I plan to title him in IPG, he’ is currently training with an experienced and successful trainer here in Ontario and so far the trainer has had nothing but quality comments about him, he’ doesn’t strike me as a person that is driving out 4-6 hours for a poorly dog that has zero capability, he also isn’t striking me as a person that would invite me down to train if he felt i was a waste of his efforts
> Kai is a Nog and Jadzea pup
> He’s 15 weeks
> Maybe those who criticize the breeding pair or question it would enjoy seeing him navigating the sporting world


Kai sounds like a good dog and I wish you success. I am not trying to criticize anything.. Just a future owner trying to be neutral and learning to make an educated decision.


----------



## AlexLafram

AnisL said:


> Kai sounds like a good dog and I wish you success. I am not trying to criticize anything.. Just a future owner trying to be neutral and learning to make an educated decision.


Oh I’m really neutral too
I’ve learned that it is what it is
I got the dog I really wanted, I can’t wait to really dig into my adventures with him 
I am confident that you will find your perfect dog from a great breeder


----------



## Steve Strom

AlexLafram said:


> When I started a scent pad with Kai, I went over the recommended 10 minutes to let sit, actually it was more like an hour because I had emergency with a contractor that I needed to sort out and had to boot up the lap top, well when I finally got out there his nose hit the ground and he dug for his Kibbles,
> He’s dug thru a mountain of snow to find my daughter who was playing a game with us.
> He loves using his nose


I like doing 3-4 scent pads in one session. If he's digging at all, I'd calmly interrupt that. What you're looking for is that he understand the difference in the disturbed cover (grass you crushed) vs the undisturbed cover. The first thing that shows that is they follow the edge of the shape without leaving it.


----------



## AnisL

AlexLafram said:


> Oh I’m really neutral too
> I’ve learned that it is what it is
> I got the dog I really wanted, I can’t wait to really dig into my adventures with him
> I am confident that you will find your perfect dog from a great breeder


Thank you Alex. Share pictures and stories with us!


----------



## SuperAndre

AnisL said:


> Thank you Alex. Share pictures and stories with us!


Did you look into the Quebec breeder I suggested? He does all sports with his dogs which maybe of interest to you.


----------



## AnisL

SuperAndre said:


> Did you look into the Quebec breeder I suggested? He does all sports with his dogs which maybe of interest to you.


I tried, couldn’t find a website. it possible that the changed names?


----------



## SuperAndre

AnisL said:


> I tried, couldn’t find a website. it possible that the changed names?


He only has Facebook. You can find pedigrees and everything from him. He just bred a female to Irck De La Hutte Du Berger the 2017 champion.


----------



## Nscullin

Bearshandler said:


> I'm a nuke. I don't know if it is who I am or the work, but I am also like this.


I’m a RN. This is me also


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Elisabeth Ann Parent

AlexLafram said:


> Anyone who’s interested in following Kai’s journey through IPG is more than welcome too, I plan to title him in IPG, he’ is currently training with an experienced and successful trainer here in Ontario and so far the trainer has had nothing but quality comments about him, he’ doesn’t strike me as a person that is driving out 4-6 hours for a poorly dog that has zero capability, he also isn’t striking me as a person that would invite me down to train if he felt i was a waste of his efforts
> Kai is a Nog and Jadzea pup
> He’s 15 weeks
> Maybe those who criticize the breeding pair or question it would enjoy seeing him navigating the sporting world


At 15 weeks you have an infant on your hands. It is almost impossible to know how the dog will perform once higher levels of pressure and stress are added at this age... Unless you can look at the parents history with the same level of pressure and try to decifer a guess. 

Being in Ontario, I am curious who you work with. Most people travel for IGP training, trainers included.

I am not saying your puppy isn't nice - I am sure he is. But to recommend a breeding from untitled, uncertified health scores, with no current history of work to someone interested in pursuing a very specific sport with their potential puppy is extremely risky and just wrong... Especially from a breeder who knows better. To be quite honest..its lazy and detrimental to the breed itself. 

Maybe we will see one another out on the field one day soon. I wish you lots of success with your puppy.


----------



## Elisabeth Ann Parent

David Winners said:


> An important thing to note is that the goals of Carmen and Sheena have always been to produce working dogs, not sport dogs. That doesn't mean they can't do well in SCH, but they are not podium dogs. My dog Valor is much better suited for military/LE than SCH.
> 
> I would encourage everyone to go see dogs. Watch them work. Talk to their owners/handlers. Learn what you like and along the way you will find out where to get what you like.


David, I'd be curious how many puppies from the last 3 litters produced by them went on to actual work?

I have a dog here (now retired from sport) that is definitely not a "sport dog". She did well in the sport (unfortunately health was terrible) but was very hard for a newbie to handle... Granted she taught me a lot. 

I have had many people in both working venues and sport venues watch her work so feel pretty qualified to say she would of excelled as a working dog but.. Alas had me as an owner so only got to play on the field with a sleeve.


----------



## Elisabeth Ann Parent

Steve Strom said:


> Hey Alex, I hope you succeed to whatever level you want and that you have as much fun as I did. My comments and advice will always be the same to someone looking for a dog to do anything specific like sport or whatever. 2 unproven dogs and a pedigree full of cgc's combined with "pending" not submitted 3mos ago xrays would not be where I'd be looking.


100% this.


----------



## David Winners

Elisabeth Ann Parent said:


> David, I'd be curious how many puppies from the last 3 litters produced by them went on to actual work?
> 
> I have a dog here (now retired from sport) that is definitely not a "sport dog". She did well in the sport (unfortunately health was terrible) but was very hard for a newbie to handle... Granted she taught me a lot.
> 
> I have had many people in both working venues and sport venues watch her work so feel pretty qualified to say she would of excelled as a working dog but.. Alas had me as an owner so only got to play on the field with a sleeve.


I don't have that information. Unfortunately Carmen is having issues with her eyesight and can no longer read the forum and respond. I am in no way capable or in a position to remotely represent them in any fashion. ETA: nor am I here defending anyone. 

I have been friends with Carmen for a long time. We talked often when I was a new handler and then throughout my deployments and later as a trainer.

I helped Saphire with Gus, the sire of my pup, throughout his early years. She was in a bit over her head as Gus is a lot of dog.

I have very little SCH experience myself compared to most in this conversation. I come from the working dog world. I had very specific desires when selecting this puppy and performing well on the sport field was not one of them.

I have no doubt that I can title him if I choose to put in the work. Much like your girl, he is not a sport dog per say and would be a challenge for an inexperienced handler.

Right now, at 8 months, I am very happy with him. His primary role in my life is to be my partner. He goes virtually everywhere with me. I lost my retired military dog in 2018 and my service dog in 2020. Without getting terribly long winded, this left me in need of the right kind of dog. I believe I have that dog.

Selecting a breeder, a puppy, a trainer, a venue, a lifestyle are all very personal. I try and share my personal experience with my dog. I think he is what a GSD should be. It is up to the reader to interpret how my opinion aligns with their own and to do their homework. I always suggest that people go experience dogs in person and talk to handlers and trainers about the dogs they like and don't like.

I would encourage everyone looking for a puppy to make a list of what is important to them and stick with that list. I don't think anyone should become enamored with some videos or text on the interweb and make a knee jerk decision about a dog or breeder. I'm happy to share my experience with my breeder and dog, but who am I, really? Just a boy with his dog, rambling on the internet while watching woodworking videos.


----------



## Sabis mom

David Winners said:


> I have very little SCH experience myself compared to most in this conversation. I come from the working dog world. I had very specific desires when selecting this puppy and performing well on the sport field was not one of them.


A decade of searching left me with a really short list. Three to be exact. Well known in sporting world was not on my list of criteria.


----------



## AlexLafram

Elisabeth Ann Parent said:


> At 15 weeks you have an infant on your hands. It is almost impossible to know how the dog will perform once higher levels of pressure and stress are added at this age... Unless you can look at the parents history with the same level of pressure and try to decifer a guess.
> 
> Being in Ontario, I am curious who you work with. Most people travel for IGP training, trainers included.
> 
> I am not saying your puppy isn't nice - I am sure he is. But to recommend a breeding from untitled, uncertified health scores, with no current history of work to someone interested in pursuing a very specific sport with their potential puppy is extremely risky and just wrong... Especially from a breeder who knows better. To be quite honest..its lazy and detrimental to the breed itself.
> 
> Maybe we will see one another out on the field one day soon. I wish you lots of success with your puppy.



I haven’t recommended anything to anybody, I’ve stated multiple times that I understand where people who would question this breeding are coming from, but I will answer questions about Kai honestly, he is a confident puppy, he does settle in the house, he is determined and I welcome anyone to follow our journey into the IPG world, even if we fail or succeed. 


I disagree though about not knowing the type of dog we could become. If my trainer had of come out come out cracking a whip and he had of hit the roof in fear, that would be a pretty good indicator that he is not suitable no? Or when my trainer was making large movements with the stick over his head and Kai didn’t flinch, let go or blink, that is a good indicator

Also my trainer had sat me down and asked why on earth I bought from untitled parents etc, so the feeling people are having on the thread are mutual. 

And yes people travel for training, I get it but for a minimum amount of cash vs travel time just to stoke a an ego and throw some false hope on a dumpster fire? Doubt it, i wouldn’t be wasting my entire day for something that was a waste of my time would you? Unless you’re dishonest and you like to drive endless amounts of hours. 


Thinks that’s all I got for now, I got a couple years of work before I see anyone on a trail field with my dog, thank you for the well wishes! Means a lot


----------



## Jax08

I've been chewing on this for a couple of days. Carmen has a very good reputation thru the years. She is very knowledgeable. I've spoken to her on the phone and she did what she could to help me with one of my dogs healthwise. A person I hold in very high regard has said previously that she has produced some really good dogs. I don't think anyone is taking that away from her. I've always liked Cathy when she was active on the board.

But in my opinion, in this particular situation, if any other breeder was being asked about that was breeding two dogs that were barely 2 years old - in fact the male couldn't have been 2 yet when bred the first time if the current puppy above is 15 weeks - with no titling/training/work accolades to prove they are breed worthy, prove they have the drives to do what people are paying for and no formal certification of orthos, every person on here would have told them to keep looking because these are all the signs of a backyard breeder. To ride on the reputation will eventually lead to disaster. Standards are standards. They apply to everyone all the time. It's hypocritical to give one breeder a pass because of association.

I also think that a person experienced in training military dogs has the experience to handle a dog that someone looking for their first dog. Your dog, and Sheena's Gus as you said you had to help her with him when he was young, is probably not a good choice for a first time handler looking to do sport. I know this because I know of a dog from this kennel that needed to be rehomed thru no fault of his. He was just simply in a home that was not suitable for him and the family made the right choice for him. That's not on the family or the dog. I'm not saying the dogs aren't great dogs. I don't know them and I won't give an opinion on that. I do know the reputation of other kennels in some of the pedigrees and would advise people to research that. But I will give an opinion on the circumstances of this particular situation and I'm willing to bet if a person looked thru old posts those opinions would be given by people involved in this thread.

Now...I have a dog to track before the freezing rain gets here.


----------



## David Winners

Jax08 said:


> I've been chewing on this for a couple of days. Carmen has a very good reputation thru the years. She is very knowledgeable. I've spoken to her on the phone and she did what she could to help me with one of my dogs healthwise. A person I hold in very high regard has said previously that she has produced some really good dogs. I don't think anyone is taking that away from her. I've always liked Sheena when she was active on the board.
> 
> But in my opinion, in this particular situation, if any other breeder was being asked about that was breeding two dogs that were barely 2 years old - in fact the male couldn't have been 2 yet when bred the first time if the current puppy above is 15 weeks - with no titling/training/work accolades to prove they are breed worthy, prove they have the drives to do what people are paying for and no formal certification of orthos, every person on here would have told them to keep looking because these are all the signs of a backyard breeder. To ride on the reputation will eventually lead to disaster. Standards are standards. They apply to everyone all the time. It's hypocritical to give one breeder a pass because of association.
> 
> I also think that a person experienced in training military dogs has the experience to handle a dog that someone looking for their first dog. Your dog, and Sheena's Gus as you said you had to help her with him when he was young, is probably not a good choice for a first time handler looking to do sport. I know this because I know of a dog from this kennel that needed to be rehomed thru no fault of his. He was just simply in a home that was not suitable for him and the family made the right choice for him. That's not on the family or the dog. I'm not saying the dogs aren't great dogs. I don't know them and I won't give an opinion on that. I do know the reputation of other kennels in some of the pedigrees and would advise people to research that. But I will give an opinion on the circumstances of this particular situation and I'm willing to bet if a person looked thru old posts those opinions would be given by people involved in this thread.
> 
> Now...I have a dog to track before the freezing rain gets here.


I don't disagree with any of this.

And to be honest, I have only recommended a Gus pup to one person on this forum, a SAR handler who trains with me occasionally and a retired LE handler.

The information I pass on about Nog litters is simply what I have heard and what is public knowledge. I always say contact Sheena and Carmen.


----------



## GSD07

Everyone thinks their dog is the best thing since sliced bread, and this is the way it’s supposed to be. However, if I were a new inexperienced dog owner looking for a puppy reading these stories promising a dream dog, ‘not for everyone but only for the best of the best’, I would be extremely influenced. 

That said, in the right hands, even the first time dog owner’s with no military dog experience, assuming they invest some effort, these dogs will be the best partners and companions and will make the handlers appear to be much better trainers than they actually are. Tracking should be natural and superior, should be very in tune with their owner, may be handler soft, a bit independent, because of the DDR dogs and the particular combination that I am familiar with (took a quick look at Valor pedigree), serious dogs with an inner puppy. I do not see anything over the top there. I would love to have one for life but not if I wanted to do sports.


----------



## AlexLafram

Controversy is never a bad thing 

I know people that are still talking about things that happened 15 years ago, when you have doubters, you have fans


----------



## Chip Blasiole

Super Andre,
Are you planning on housing your pups separately for any length of time?


----------



## Sabis mom

I think a lot of folks are banking on the fact that Carmen is no fool. She knows her dogs, knows bloodlines and has the history to back it up. I'm good with that. A different breeder? I would be taking a different stance. 
I'm not looking for a sport dog, so ability to impress an IPG judge is far, far down on my list. I want an actual working dog. Others have different criteria.
For me? I know for a fact that Carmen can, and will, produce what I am looking for. In fairness though. Fraserglen was not my first choice.


----------



## AlexLafram

Sabis mom said:


> I think a lot of folks are banking on the fact that Carmen is no fool. She knows her dogs, knows bloodlines and has the history to back it up. I'm good with that. A different breeder? I would be taking a different stance.
> I'm not looking for a sport dog, so ability to impress an IPG judge is far, far down on my list. I want an actual working dog. Others have different criteria.
> For me? I know for a fact that Carmen can, and will, produce what I am looking for. In fairness though. Fraserglen was not my first choice.


I wish Carmen was active and could throw her 2 cents at this thread 
It would be nice to read what she thinks


----------



## Sabis mom

AlexLafram said:


> I wish Carmen was active and could throw her 2 cents at this thread
> It would be nice to read what she thinks


I agree. I miss Carmen's input. Did not always like or agree with, but always solid.

My first choice was T17, Jeremy has a really solid idea what I want and based on the first two litters they could have provided it. Wolfstraum was my second choice, I've been "stalking" Lee and her dogs for YEARS! Lol. Absolutely no question those dogs would work for me. I would be thrilled with a Wolfstraum pup!
Border closures, travel restrictions and fluctuating exchange rates are screwing with those plans though. I reached out to Fraserglen largely because she is breeding a bitch I quite like and have for a while, who just happens to be Valor's mama. Recommendations played some role but really only because they seem to confirm my thoughts. 
FYI Weberhaus bitch that I wanted a pup from is half sister. 
I still like Weberhaus, I just am not certain that those dogs are what I need. If I was looking for a sport dog, without hesitation.


----------



## January

SuperAndre said:


> You mention making the best decision possible and this is where I felt the most comfortable, I trust that Sheena and Carmen do the best for their dogs and that my puppy will be healthy... NO doubt about it.


*edit to reflect the subject of my words 

My comment was meant as a general statement. I myself am inexperienced and also trying to make an informed decision, my post was a reflection of my own musings as I navigate my journey.

We all want that perfect match. We see others with theirs and it inspires us to seek our own. The perfect match is not equal amoungst us all.

These dogs sound excellent. They sound like a great match for their owners that love them.

The reputation of Carmen is exemplary. I am not trying to diminish that.

In general, and as the OP has also stated, I love black and white data. It’s part of how I evaluate and feel confident in any decision I make. Puppies are a gamble no matter what, and one should hopefully feel confident in making a selection. Whatever ones criteria and methods for coming to a decision, it’s a very personal one and as long as one is comfortable with it, I’m truly happy for them. If another chooses a different path or even questions the process in an attempt to gain understanding, it does not have to diminish the excellence of the dog for oneself and their journey unless one lets it.

@AnisL your responses are respectful and full of class, and I wish you and everyone the very best as they navigate their journey.


----------



## Steve Strom

AlexLafram said:


> I wish Carmen was active and could throw her 2 cents at this thread
> It would be nice to read what she thinks


Its not that easy anymore on here, but search back for her comments on other breeders.


----------



## AlexLafram

Steve Strom said:


> Its not that easy anymore on here, but search back for her comments on other breeders.


I am aware 

Carmen is someone I really respect and for the most part even the naysayers who don’t like her have a level of respect for her,
I’m happy I have a pup from her male, 
I’m glad I chose the breeder I did and like, I will be even happier once I can title him and hey if ipg really isn’t a go for us, there’s other venues, trainer mentioned protection, he uses his nose, he can be head down chewing a bone and the minute I pull out food from the fridge, head shoots straight up and the nose leads him right to the fridge, I’m excited about our future together, also I like how social and friendly he is with people- 
He’s always down to meet and greet which is lovely


----------



## SuperAndre

Chip Blasiole said:


> Super Andre,
> Are you planning on housing your pups separately for any length of time?


Housing separately? Like to avoid separation anxiety ? Sorry didn’t see this.

Usually won’t check unless I’m quoted or tagged.

happy New Years btw


----------



## SuperAndre

AlexLafram said:


> I am aware
> 
> Carmen is someone I really respect and for the most part even the naysayers who don’t like her have a level of respect for her,
> I’m happy I have a pup from her male,
> I’m glad I chose the breeder I did and like, I will be even happier once I can title him and hey if ipg really isn’t a go for us, there’s other venues, trainer mentioned protection, he uses his nose, he can be head down chewing a bone and the minute I pull out food from the fridge, head shoots straight up and the nose leads him right to the fridge, I’m excited about our future together, also I like how social and friendly he is with people-
> He’s always down to meet and greet which is lovely


Is he aloof as well?


----------



## Chip Blasiole

No, the new pup separated from the older pup for at least six months with brief supervised time together. I think I mixed you up with Alex.


----------



## SuperAndre

January said:


> My comment was meant as a general statement. I myself am inexperienced and also trying to make an informed decision, my post was a reflection of my own musings as I navigate my journey.
> 
> We all want that perfect match. We see others with theirs and it inspires us to seek our own. The perfect match is not equal amoungst us all.
> 
> These dogs sound excellent. They sound like a great match for their owners that love them.
> 
> The reputation of Carmen is exemplary. I am not trying to diminish that.
> 
> As the OP has also stated, I also love black and white data. It’s part of how I evaluate and feel confident in any decision I make. Puppies are a gamble no matter what, and one should hopefully feel confident in making a selection. As I said, whatever your criteria and methods for coming to your decision, it’s a very personal one and as long as youre comfortable with it, I’m truly happy for you. If another chooses a different path or even question the process in an attempt to gain understanding, it does not have to diminish the excellence of the dog for you and your journey unless you let it.
> 
> @AnisL your responses are respectful and full of class, and I wish you and everyone the very best as they navigate their journey.


I just wanted my opinion to be clear that for me this works. 

I never pushed a litter or breeder on anyone but rather expressed my opinion and excitement about the future for the previous litter and the upcoming one of this pairing.

Infact when Anis told me he was withdrawing his deposit I suggested someone who he maybe more interested in. I respect everyone’s opinion regardless of whether they match mine. I am also always available to talk if people have questions or want my opinion or thoughts as I have been for the recent months.

where did you decide to get your pup?


----------



## SuperAndre

Chip Blasiole said:


> No, the new pup separated from the older pup for at least six months with brief supervised time together. I think I mixed you up with Alex.


No worries. I don’t think Alex is getting another dog, I could be wrong.


----------



## Sabis mom

@SuperAndre off topic for a sec but did your Lab come from Mary Anne?


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## SuperAndre

Sabis mom said:


> @SuperAndre off topic for a sec but did your Lab come from Mary Anne?


Yea he did. Do you know her?


----------



## AlexLafram

SuperAndre said:


> Is he aloof as well?


umm
He likes to say hello and he likes to get the pats 
He’s just a little guy right now so it may change, probably will, I have a nervous wreck of a dog though so I’m enjoying this confidence


----------



## AlexLafram

Chip Blasiole said:


> No, the new pup separated from the older pup for at least six months with brief supervised time together. I think I mixed you up with Alex.


Not me 
Is there another Alex?
My dogs are together, old man is living the dream


----------



## Sabis mom

SuperAndre said:


> Yea he did. Do you know her?


Know her in passing from years past. Kennel name just caught my attention.


----------



## SuperAndre

Sabis mom said:


> Know her in passing from years past. Kennel name just caught my attention.


Had dogs from her for years and nearly got another. Always had super temperament, personality and health. Definitely recommend if you are looking for a lab!


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## Sabis mom

Her dogs that I saw were lovely dogs, absolutely what a Lab should be. Bold, friendly, happy, outgoing dogs. 
I used to have a boss that was into showing-Dobes- travelled to a few shows with them.


----------



## SuperAndre

Sabis mom said:


> Her dogs that I saw were lovely dogs, absolutely what a Lab should be. Bold, friendly, happy, outgoing dogs.
> I used to have a boss that was into showing-Dobes- travelled to a few shows with them.


Cool! Whose the Doberman breeder? My girlfriends a handler at shows and her family bred but now just have booths. We actually never picked Marry-Anne as our breeder, got a dog from her because my uncle had a deposit and gave it to us when something happened. Ever since have gotten all our labs from her. Even people who don’t love Labs love ours.


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## Sabis mom

Mary White was the breeder and handler. Freespirit was the kennel.


----------



## Bearshandler

I don’t believe dogs should be bred without the proper health clearances and that’s not going to change, no matter the breeder or our relationship. I think this one is personal to some because they know Carmen, have dogs from her, or are planning to buy from her. I have the same expectations of her as everyone else. It always unsettles me when I see programs I respect do things like this and give the same answers no one would accept from a lesser known breeder. You don’t just buy off on the health of dogs being produced based on the pedigree. I’m not a fan of dogs without proven working ability being bred either. This conversation brought another thread to mind. I don’t see many differences between them.








Rugueux K9 in Kennedale, TX?


I have been researching breeders in TX and have been talking with this one. Anyone have any feedback with them? I found them on the AKC marketplace. Rugueux K9 in Kennedale, TX? Here is info on the Sire and Dam and we are looking at the 10 week old male pupply Sire: Crater Laroja (DN60887901)...




www.germanshepherds.com


----------



## Elisabeth Ann Parent

There is no doubt that Carmen knows what she is doing.. she has years of experience... BUT.. every dog is so different and genetics can fall in any direction even with the best intentions and planning (yes, even in a very set program). 

Proving your animals are what you say they are is what I am asking - especially from someone who should know better.

Show me proven health, proven working ability (especially in the last 2-3 gens). That is how you prove your stock is of quality. Not on a reputation you built... that has a place - for sure it does - but it doesn't tell me about the animals you are currently breeding.


----------



## AlexLafram

Elisabeth Ann Parent said:


> There is no doubt that Carmen knows what she is doing.. she has years of experience... BUT.. every dog is so different and genetics can fall in any direction even with the best intentions and planning (yes, even in a very set program).
> 
> Proving your animals are what you say they are is what I am asking - especially from someone who should know better.
> 
> Show me proven health, proven working ability (especially in the last 2-3 gens). That is how you prove your stock is of quality. Not on a reputation you built... that has a place - for sure it does - but it doesn't tell me about the animals you are currently breeding.


I don’t disagree with that 
Let’s see where this litter takes the people who bought pups to do specific venues


----------



## Jen84

AlexLafram said:


> Maybe those who criticize the breeding pair or question it would enjoy seeing him navigating the sporting world


Those who are criticizing the breeding pair have NO clue how basic genetic works or the dogs in the pedigree and how balance is achieved. 

I will agree that if all you wanted was high prey sport monkey to perform circus tricks and stoke your ego then a different breeder might have been in order. But if you wanted the entire German Shepherd package that can obtain a sport title and have balance then I am confident you'll be fine.



AlexLafram said:


> I disagree though about not knowing the type of dog we could become.


Of course the breeder who knows their stock and has the experience will be able to tell which pups have potential for what by 6.5 weeks. I would trust what Sheena told you about the pup.



AlexLafram said:


> I wish Carmen was active and could throw her 2 cents at this thread
> It would be nice to read what she thinks


Here are two threads that I recommend people read and grasp. They answer most of the questions you or others may have and Carmen's insights can be easily seen:









Iceberg Breeders


I bring this up as a term I use to identify many of the breeders of German Shepherds today. Often people query the board about whether to breed a dog with an outward expression of an health issue or temperament problem. I see the breed as an iceberg in that there is a part that is apparent on...




www.germanshepherds.com












Titles vs Certifications (working type)


People often ask me why I think the breed is better or worse than in the past. Overall, I think that the breed has suffered from the emphasis placed on breeding dogs for show/sport titles as opposed to breeding dogs for use in working certifications. I think the most important attributes of a...




www.germanshepherds.com







AlexLafram said:


> Carmen is someone I really respect and for the most part even the naysayers who don’t like her have a level of respect for her,


_"I saw Carmspack listed as a potential kennel.This kennel has been breeding working dogs for thirty years. She has probably bred and placed more dogs in police,RCMP,SAR,and military than 98 percent of the people on this board. When it comes to WORKING temperament people like this breeder and people like Larry Filo walk the walk with what they have bred and PLACED over time as opposed to many people who talk the talk. The irony is that most police k9 officers don't think that sch dogs are REAL working dogs! So the thought process that ONLY dogs from titled, ko'er, bitches are capable of producing working dogs is erroneous and ignorant. Because the facts don't support the assertion! Now I am not saying that titled, koered dogs DON'T produce good working dogs if the homework is done, but breeders of knpv dogs, many of which aren't titled, have consistently produced a higher quality of WORKING dog than the santimoniuos "titled dogs only" people are producing these days. SPORT is not the savior of german shepherds nor should it be.JMO The breeder of Carmspack has forgotten more about german shepherds in terms of genetics,health issues, and longevity, for true working dogs than most people I have met in my life. She can give you 6 to 10 generations knowledge of every dog in her dogs pedigree. Police dept repeatedly return to her for dogs. I am only speaking for this kennel which I know of their record,but that in itself is enough to make me laugh at some of the ALL-INCLUSIVE statements made on this board.JMO "_ - gustav AKA @cliffson1


----------



## Jen84

Here is another great thread to read. You will easily see who the teachers, students, and clueless are:









Ball drive vs old time work ethic


On a closed thread Carmen said this: ball drive has little to do with anything . it is the modern way to engage and motivate, lure and bribe it says nothing about the instinct about an intrinsic , self rewarding drive and that does include obedience , see all the threads about genetic...




www.germanshepherds.com


----------



## Bearshandler

Jen84 said:


> Those who are criticizing the breeding pair have NO clue how basic genetic works or the dogs in the pedigree and how balance is achieved.
> 
> I will agree that if all you wanted was high prey sport monkey to perform circus tricks and stoke your ego then a different breeder might have been in order. But if you wanted the entire German Shepherd package that can obtain a sport title and have balance then I am confident you'll be fine.
> 
> 
> Of course the breeder who knows their stock and has the experience will be able to tell which pups have potential for what by 6.5 weeks. I would trust what Sheena told you about the pup.
> 
> 
> Here are two threads that I recommend people read and grasp. They answer most of the questions you or others may have and Carmen's insights can be easily seen:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Iceberg Breeders
> 
> 
> I bring this up as a term I use to identify many of the breeders of German Shepherds today. Often people query the board about whether to breed a dog with an outward expression of an health issue or temperament problem. I see the breed as an iceberg in that there is a part that is apparent on...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.germanshepherds.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Titles vs Certifications (working type)
> 
> 
> People often ask me why I think the breed is better or worse than in the past. Overall, I think that the breed has suffered from the emphasis placed on breeding dogs for show/sport titles as opposed to breeding dogs for use in working certifications. I think the most important attributes of a...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.germanshepherds.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _"I saw Carmspack listed as a potential kennel.This kennel has been breeding working dogs for thirty years. She has probably bred and placed more dogs in police,RCMP,SAR,and military than 98 percent of the people on this board. When it comes to WORKING temperament people like this breeder and people like Larry Filo walk the walk with what they have bred and PLACED over time as opposed to many people who talk the talk. The irony is that most police k9 officers don't think that sch dogs are REAL working dogs! So the thought process that ONLY dogs from titled, ko'er, bitches are capable of producing working dogs is erroneous and ignorant. Because the facts don't support the assertion! Now I am not saying that titled, koered dogs DON'T produce good working dogs if the homework is done, but breeders of knpv dogs, many of which aren't titled, have consistently produced a higher quality of WORKING dog than the santimoniuos "titled dogs only" people are producing these days. SPORT is not the savior of german shepherds nor should it be.JMO The breeder of Carmspack has forgotten more about german shepherds in terms of genetics,health issues, and longevity, for true working dogs than most people I have met in my life. She can give you 6 to 10 generations knowledge of every dog in her dogs pedigree. Police dept repeatedly return to her for dogs. I am only speaking for this kennel which I know of their record,but that in itself is enough to make me laugh at some of the ALL-INCLUSIVE statements made on this board.JMO "_ - gustav AKA @cliffson1


I believe I have asked you this before. What is it you do with your dogs? What dogs do you even have? I have not once ever seen you talk about your dogs or what you do. It gets kind of annoying when I see people who don't do anything with their dogs throw around insults like trained to do "circus tricks" and prey monkeys. Those are strong statements tomake for someone who does nothing with their dog. I think people here have given very objective opinions on this pairing and some others have taken it personally or made it personal. Advising someone to not buy from a pair without health testing is something that I stand buy 100%. Telling someone that they should get dogs with proven success in the venue they want to pursue is something I will stand by 100%.


----------



## Elisabeth Ann Parent

Fraserglen Kennels - Ontario German Shepherd Breeders


Fraserglen Kennels Reg’d has been breeding German Shepherds who are “ready” for over 25 years, offering German Shepherd puppies, studs, and females across Ontario & Canada.




fraserglenkennels.com





Is this the kennel website?


----------



## AlexLafram

Elisabeth Ann Parent said:


> Fraserglen Kennels - Ontario German Shepherd Breeders
> 
> 
> Fraserglen Kennels Reg’d has been breeding German Shepherds who are “ready” for over 25 years, offering German Shepherd puppies, studs, and females across Ontario & Canada.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fraserglenkennels.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is this the kennel website?


Yes 
That would be it


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

I have no dog in this fight...no real opinion....but I was surprised to see a few dogs appearing overweight on the Fraserglen website. 

I did pass on a breeder who has been recommended quite on here a bit. When I visited and met the dogs, I liked them. But it seems this person no longer titles. When discussing the dogs the person made a statement something like "I'm not sure what this dog would act like in town. I would be interested to see how they responded". Loosely paraphrase by me of statement made probably 3 or 4 years ago now. I _think_ there was even some breeding of a dog who had not yet had final hip/elbow ratings. I liked the person and the dogs but the other stuff made me uncomfortable so I passed. Maybe my loss, idk

I don't know if there comes a point where a person knows their dogs so well that it is no longer so important to take them off the property and do stuff with them?


----------



## mycobraracr

I didn't read every comment, so I may have missed something. 

I know Carmen, and would trust her. She breeds to the standard, not to a specific sport. I am a little surprised looking at the pedigree some of the choices she made, but... 

That being said, sport is very different these days. So if you're serious about wanting to do IGP, then I'd go check out the clubs. This is for a few reasons. One, to see the dogs you like. Talk to the owners, see how the dogs are at home, ask for pedigrees and so on. Chances are you'll see some similarities. Two, every club has different training styles. So you want to make sure you're getting a dog that will work in the way the TD/Helper trains to get the most out of your dog. It's team effort, so you may get a good dog but it may not fit the way training style. Just some food for thought.


----------



## Elisabeth Ann Parent

Well, I have two dogs VERY closely related to one of these breeding males. 

If your saying all of these dogs were chosen for bettering the breed for EITHER work or sport... I very much disagree.

Knew probably 50+ dogs related to one of them both in first and secondary breedings. 

I'm gonna let this thread go now..

But if you have a pup from the ones related to my dogs (i will let you do the digging) then get insurance or a goooood savings account and befriend your vet.


----------



## AlexLafram

mycobraracr said:


> I didn't read every comment, so I may have missed something.
> 
> I know Carmen, and would trust her. She breeds to the standard, not to a specific sport. I am a little surprised looking at the pedigree some of the choices she made, but...
> 
> That being said, sport is very different these days. So if you're serious about wanting to do IGP, then I'd go check out the clubs. This is for a few reasons. One, to see the dogs you like. Talk to the owners, see how the dogs are at home, ask for pedigrees and so on. Chances are you'll see some similarities. Two, every club has different training styles. So you want to make sure you're getting a dog that will work in the way the TD/Helper trains to get the most out of your dog. It's team effort, so you may get a good dog but it may not fit the way training style. Just some food for thought.


When I went to Fraserglen I saw 2 dogs, Nog and Jadzea, 
Both of them appeared to be shiny, healthy and not overweight,
The property was kept immaculate and the pups where really thriving and healthy.
Meeting Gus, I can honestly say that he is quite healthy, actually meeting him twice before I knew of Fraserglen, he was in really quality shape


----------



## Jax08

First, I'm just going to point out again...THIS is NOT Carmen's kennel. This is Fraserglen under some person named Sheena (I mispoke in a prior post. I thought Sheena owned Gus. Saphire (board name) owns Gus and her name is Cathy. 

I don't believe anyone criticized the pair. I know I said the dogs in the Nog/Jadzea pairing could be great and I wasn't going to speak to their quality or capabilities but what I criticized was backyard breeding methods of breeding dogs not even 2 years old with informal orthos and no titling/work in the upfront pedigree and is selling them to IGP homes. Any other kennel that did not have Carmen's name attached to the thread would be torn apart on this board. Standards and quality control are required no matter what your name is. What I personally criticized was knowing that a dog, from a different breeding out of this kennel, that was far to civil for a family with little experienced had to rehome their dog. What I also know, given the region I live in, is some of the kennel names in the pedigrees aren't highly regarded for quality, and one of those opinions came from a K9 officer who has worked these dogs and also trains and sells police dogs. 

I can't stand the hypocrisy of it all. Everyone get a dog from Fraserglen. I'm sure it will work out great.


----------



## Elisabeth Ann Parent

Wonder how much Carmen is really involved.. Seems like her name is being thrown around a lot.

My posts are not about Carmen... See Jax post above... THIS is what we are saying!


----------



## mycobraracr

I miss understood this thread. I thought it was Carmens kennel since everyone was bringing her up. That's why I surprised by some of the breeding decisions. Since it's not, it makes more sense.


----------



## AlexLafram

Jax08 said:


> First, I'm just going to point out again...THIS is NOT Carmen's kennel. This is Fraserglen under some person named Sheena (I mispoke in a prior post. I thought Sheena owned Gus. Saphire (board name) owns Gus and her name is Cathy.
> 
> I don't believe anyone criticized the pair. I know I said the dogs in the Nog/Jadzea pairing could be great and I wasn't going to speak to their quality or capabilities but what I criticized was backyard breeding methods of breeding dogs not even 2 years old with informal orthos and no titling/work in the upfront pedigree and is selling them to IGP homes. Any other kennel that did not have Carmen's name attached to the thread would be torn apart on this board. Standards and quality control are required no matter what your name is. What I personally criticized was knowing that a dog, from a different breeding out of this kennel, that was far to civil for a family with little experienced had to rehome their dog. What I also know, given the region I live in, is some of the kennel names in the pedigrees aren't highly regarded for quality, and one of those opinions came from a K9 officer who has worked these dogs and also trains and sells police dogs.
> 
> I can't stand the hypocrisy of it all. Everyone get a dog from Fraserglen. I'm sure it will work out great.


It is criticizing 

And there’s nothing wrong with being critical, 
Absolutely nothing wrong with having an opinion either.
I invited people who criticize the breeding pair to engage in my dogs journey, there’s nothing wrong with that, 
As for recommendation on the Kennel?
I bought from Fraserglen, I like my dog , I wouldn’t recommend anyone do anything though honestly.

Carmen is mentoring Sheena
She picked (Carmen) Nog pairing with Jadzea 
That’s why she keeps being brought up


----------



## Steve Strom

Jen84 said:


> Here is another great thread to read. You will easily see who the teachers, students, and clueless are:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ball drive vs old time work ethic
> 
> 
> On a closed thread Carmen said this: ball drive has little to do with anything . it is the modern way to engage and motivate, lure and bribe it says nothing about the instinct about an intrinsic , self rewarding drive and that does include obedience , see all the threads about genetic...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.germanshepherds.com


Thanks for finding that. It actually concluded much later when Hineni started a thread discussing her training, it clarified 3 or 4 questions I had. That thread, I did a pretty poor job naming so it turned into a typical My sheps better then yours and believe what I say, not what I do. It was meant to be about very specific pieces in the training, not wonderful stories about potential and the good ol days.


----------



## Sabis mom

mycobraracr said:


> I miss understood this thread. I thought it was Carmens kennel since everyone was bringing her up. That's why I surprised by some of the breeding decisions. Since it's not, it makes more sense.


More importantly, where the heck have you been?


----------



## mycobraracr

I've been sooooo busy! I've partnered up in a police dog company, so that's taken off. I'm in a bite suit about 4 days a week for that. I'm still doing pet dog training so I have about 5-8 board and trains at any given moment. Plus I'm still running my club and have paired up with another club decoying for them a couple times a month. I don't think I sleep anymore haha.


----------



## AlexLafram

mycobraracr said:


> I've been sooooo busy! I've partnered up in a police dog company, so that's taken off. I'm in a bite suit about 4 days a week for that. I'm still doing pet dog training so I have about 5-8 board and trains at any given moment. Plus I'm still running my club and have paired up with another club decoying for them a couple times a month. I don't think I sleep anymore haha.


That is very exciting!


----------



## Sabis mom

I messaged you ages ago! And would have loved your input on some stuff. This thread included.
Glad things are going well for you! Update on Miss Kimber when you can!


----------



## AlexLafram

Elisabeth Ann Parent said:


> Wonder how much Carmen is really involved.. Seems like her name is being thrown around a lot.
> 
> My posts are not about Carmen... See Jax post above... THIS is what we are saying!


Carmen picked the breeding pair 

also you looked at the pedigrees? 
just out of curiosity, see anything you like in there


----------



## Elisabeth Ann Parent

Pedigree, yes. There is POTENTIAL. 

If Carmen did pick this pair and gave her blessing on untitled or unworked dogs with no health certs than I am very disappointed. I stand by my comments.

The two generations previous to both dogs have nothing of note... Prove the quality in some degree. Prove the strengths of the genetics you are claiming are superior and should be bred. 

That is all.

No one said or is saying the dogs can't do it - we are saying if they are to be bred - PROVE IT.

Lots of other kennels out there producing the same type of dogs with proven genetics in all generstions.

If you claim a pair will produce a dog good for work or sport than THOSE DOGS SHOULD BE WORKING OR HAVE PRODUCED DOGS WHO HAVE! NOT 5-10 YEARS AGO! 

Okay, done with this. Drink your koolaid. 

Going to go perform circus tricks with my poorly bred sport dog... Oh wait, there are dogs working in real venues from the same parents... Better not tell my dog that... Lol


----------



## AlexLafram

Elisabeth Ann Parent said:


> Pedigree, yes. There is POTENTIAL.
> 
> If Carmen did pick this pair and gave her blessing on untitled or unworked dogs with no health certs than I am very disappointed. I stand by my comments.
> 
> The two generations previous to both dogs have nothing of note... Prove the quality in some degree. Prove the strengths of the genetics you are claiming are superior and should be bred.
> 
> That is all.
> 
> No one said or is saying the dogs can't do it - we are saying if they are to be bred - PROVE IT.
> 
> Lots of other kennels out there producing the same type of dogs with proven genetics in all generstions.
> 
> If you claim a pair will produce a dog good for work or sport than THOSE DOGS SHOULD BE WORKING OR HAVE PRODUCED DOGS WHO HAVE! NOT 5-10 YEARS AGO!
> 
> Okay, done with this. Drink your koolaid.
> 
> Going to go perform circus tricks with my poorly bred sport dog... Oh wait, there are dogs working in real venues from the same parents... Better not tell my dog that... Lol


Well to be fair, 
I didn’t call your dogs circus performers, It not my character to cut things down like that, I think anyone that can get there dog to do a beautiful routine has really earned a level of respect, think about it, it’s a wonderful connection handlers have with their dogs. 
I also am on the road to proving my dog can do sport but at 15 weeks don’t expect to see a title anytime soon, and as for the Koolaid we are drinking , well I don’t know about that one nobody seems to be screaming “buy from this breeder” from the rooftops, I do know that Carmen did pick this pair I didn’t ask why because I trust her and I don’t think there’s anything wrong in trusting her, I like Carmen, always have- even when she came over to my house many years ago and told me that my dog was poop and i should be happy that I got him as far in training as I did, she wasn’t wrong,


----------



## Steve Strom

AlexLafram said:


> Well to be fair,
> I didn’t call your dogs circus performers, It not my character to cut things down like that, I think anyone that can get there dog to do a beautiful routine has really earned a level of respect, think about it, it’s a wonderful connection handlers have with their dogs.
> I also am on the road to proving my dog can do sport but at 15 weeks don’t expect to see a title anytime soon, and as for the Koolaid we are drinking , well I don’t know about that one nobody seems to be screaming “buy from this breeder” from the rooftops, I do know that Carmen did pick this pair I didn’t ask why because I trust her and I don’t think there’s anything wrong in trusting her, I like Carmen, always have- even when she came over to my house many years ago and told me that my dog was poop and i should be happy that I got him as far in training as I did, she wasn’t wrong,


There's always some cross talk on these threads Alex, but I think thats an important question to have asked. You can find legit thoughts and comments about the different dogs, but when I see one type of titling replaced over a couple of generations, thats something I want to ask about because thats generally where I think things end up being a little deceptive. Sch3 to a cgc's. That type of change, and then nothing? Why?


----------



## AlexLafram

Steve Strom said:


> There's always some cross talk on these threads Alex, but I think thats an important question to have asked. You can find legit thoughts and comments about the different dogs, but when I see one type of titling replaced over a couple of generations, thats something I want to ask about because thats generally where I think things end up being a little deceptive. Sch3 to a cgc's. That type of change, and then nothing? Why?


Well 
I just had a 2 hour convo with her about the history of the GSD she had as always, had so many useful things to say 
But I must take my daughter out sledding or I will be dealing with a very bad scene, so I will update when I have time tonight


----------



## Jen84

Bearshandler said:


> I believe I have asked you this before. What is it you do with your dogs? What dogs do you even have? I have not once ever seen you talk about your dogs or what you do. It gets kind of annoying when I see people who don't do anything with their dogs throw around insults like trained to do "circus tricks" and prey monkeys. Those are strong statements tomake for someone who does nothing with their dog. I think people here have given very objective opinions on this pairing and some others have taken it personally or made it personal. Advising someone to not buy from a pair without health testing is something that I stand buy 100%. Telling someone that they should get dogs with proven success in the venue they want to pursue is something I will stand by 100%.


"Prey monkey" and "circus tricks" are not insults but rather common vernacular in the working world. Further, a prey monkey temperament is even a positive for certain dogs.

Here is a thread about prey monkeys that you can add to your list:








Prey monkeys?


So there has been a lot of discussion on here about dogs with an abundance of prey drive or "prey monkeys". This brings to mind a question? If the prey drive is coupled with a strong nerve base is this really such a bad thing? What brings this to mind is discussion elsewhere in which Mike...




www.germanshepherds.com





I don't believe you asked about my dogs and I think you're lying. I'll make you a deal Bear. You show the quote where you asked about my dog and I'll post a picture of my personal protection dog; and another one that will also roughly illustrate my background in genetics.

If you don't produce this quote, then I want you to apologize to the forum for lying. Thanks Bear.


----------



## AnisL

Jen84 said:


> "Prey monkey" and "circus tricks" are not insults but rather common vernacular in the working world. Further, a prey monkey temperament is even a positive for certain dogs.
> 
> Here is a thread about prey monkeys that you can add to your list:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Prey monkeys?
> 
> 
> So there has been a lot of discussion on here about dogs with an abundance of prey drive or "prey monkeys". This brings to mind a question? If the prey drive is coupled with a strong nerve base is this really such a bad thing? What brings this to mind is discussion elsewhere in which Mike...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.germanshepherds.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't believe you asked about my dogs and I think you're lying. I'll make you a deal Bear. You show the quote where you asked about my dog and I'll post a picture of my personal protection dog; and another one that will also roughly illustrate my background in genetics.
> 
> If you don't produce this quote, then I want you to apologize to the forum for lying. Thanks Bear.


I think that neither Bear nor the people in this thread are interested in knowing who said what when or in any type of confrontation. This thread is meant to provide the knowledge to a new owner like me to make the right decision when purchasing a working line german shepherd, depending on what the plans are for the dog.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

There was some old post of Carmen’s put up on this thread where she mentioned ball drive. Technically there is no such. Dogs highly motivated for a ball or tug are expressing characteristics of their prey drive. If you want to compete in sport, you need a dog with the type of prey drive where they are highly motivated for a toy as well as having high food drive. They both make the training more fun and successful. In sports, you get points for flash like focused heeling, prancing heeling, very fast sits and downs in motion, recalls, etc. None of these thing are relevant to some working dogs. Not much at all with an apprehension dog, very much with a detection dog. For me, the trick is to find a dog with enough prey to get the flash and enough aggression to be civil if the need arises. It doesn’t make sense to put years of training into a protection sport and end up with a dog that won’t actually protect. Terms like prey monkey or sleeve sucker are derogatory in that they infer the dog is extreme in prey but lacks aggression. KNPV is different from other sports in
that many trainer just try to get a PH1 and then sell the dog as a police dog prospect and get another dog. The fog is not a family companion. Interestingly, many MalX’s are extreme in prey drive and lack defensive aggression because their prey drive is so extreme that frustration aggression and possessiveness compensate. The Dutch want extreme prey for man work, not obedience. They was their dogs to work in prey and fight, not prey and defensive aggression. But they are different breeds with different nerve bases. Sport has taken the GSD away from its origins.


----------



## David Winners

Ball drive is a common phrase in the working dog world. No, it is not scientifically correct, but common vernacular nonetheless.


----------



## Steve Strom

Jen84 said:


> "Prey monkey" and "circus tricks" are not insults but rather common vernacular in the working world. Further, a prey monkey temperament is even a positive for certain dogs.
> 
> Here is a thread about prey monkeys that you can add to your list:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Prey monkeys?
> 
> 
> So there has been a lot of discussion on here about dogs with an abundance of prey drive or "prey monkeys". This brings to mind a question? If the prey drive is coupled with a strong nerve base is this really such a bad thing? What brings this to mind is discussion elsewhere in which Mike...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.germanshepherds.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't believe you asked about my dogs and I think you're lying. I'll make you a deal Bear. You show the quote where you asked about my dog and I'll post a picture of my personal protection dog; and another one that will also roughly illustrate my background in genetics.
> 
> If you don't produce this quote, then I want you to apologize to the forum for lying. Thanks Bear.


I'd like to see your dog, handled by you. So many fakes get banned and then rejoin over and over, it would be refreshing to see someone like yourself, obviously the real deal, help a few "students"


----------



## Chip Blasiole

Yes,I think most people know what the term conveys. I was just pointing out to people learning about dog jargon that a drive is related to a survival instinct, where chasing a base is not instinctively based like the term prey drive or predatory aggression.


----------



## Jen84

Steve Strom said:


> I'd like to see your dog, handled by you. So many fakes get banned and then rejoin over and over, it would be refreshing to see someone like yourself, obviously the real deal, help a few "students"


Who said I was anything? I'm an idiot to tell you the truth lol.

That is why I cite my information from people who are the REAL DEAL. I provided four links in this thread that will help the beginner sort through all the fake BS. And what you're doing is "shooting the messenger".

Here is one of your quotes:
" I'm not much into pedigrees and my only real thought on breeding is as simple as breed good to good to keep it that way. Not real deep or informative, but maybe someone else will see this and fill in some blanks."

^^^^^^^ this is the breeding strategy of a clueless BYB. "Nice doggy to nice doggy". lol

If you read the threads I provided you may start to have a clue.


----------



## Steve Strom

Jen84 said:


> Who said I was anything? I'm an idiot to tell you the truth lol.
> 
> That is why I cite my information from people who are the REAL DEAL. I provided four links in this thread that will help the beginner sort through all the fake BS. And what you're doing is "shooting the messenger".
> 
> Here is one of your quotes:
> " I'm not much into pedigrees and my only real thought on breeding is as simple as breed good to good to keep it that way. Not real deep or informative, but maybe someone else will see this and fill in some blanks."
> 
> ^^^^^^^ this is the breeding strategy of a clueless BYB. "Nice doggy to nice doggy". lol
> 
> If you read the threads I provided you may start to have a clue.


I have a few clues once and a while, but before they trace your IP and toss you, show us something. Come on.


----------



## David Winners

IP is clean.


----------



## Steve Strom

David Winners said:


> IP is clean.


Ah, perfect. One of those times I'm glad to have been wrong. A great opportunity for some shared insight, hopefully beyond what other people have posted.


----------



## Jen84

And for those interested in Nog's pedigree. I just want to share a really nice quote that sums things up nicely IMO.

In regards to Asko von der lutter, from Nate Harves:

_"One thing to keep in mind, this was not a flavor of the month dog used by internet idiots listening to other internet idiots...this dog got breedings from knowledgeable kennels and individuals, for several, several years, right up until he died at almost 15 years of age." -_ nate harves





__





Asko von der Lutter - Page 7







www.pedigreedatabase.com


----------



## Bearshandler

Jen84 said:


> "Prey monkey" and "circus tricks" are not insults but rather common vernacular in the working world. Further, a prey monkey temperament is even a positive for certain dogs.
> 
> Here is a thread about prey monkeys that you can add to your list:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Prey monkeys?
> 
> 
> So there has been a lot of discussion on here about dogs with an abundance of prey drive or "prey monkeys". This brings to mind a question? If the prey drive is coupled with a strong nerve base is this really such a bad thing? What brings this to mind is discussion elsewhere in which Mike...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.germanshepherds.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't believe you asked about my dogs and I think you're lying. I'll make you a deal Bear. You show the quote where you asked about my dog and I'll post a picture of my personal protection dog; and another one that will also roughly illustrate my background in genetics.
> 
> If you don't produce this quote, then I want you to apologize to the forum for lying. Thanks Bear.


Maybe you aren’t Jakub, usadogs, or whatever other names they used, but the you sure do act awfully similar. As for those terms you used. Circus tricks isn’t something commonly used and sounds like something someone who didn’t participate in sports would use as an insult. I know the phrase, and it’s not something ever used in a positive light. As for prey monkey, that is commonly used in the dog world. That doesn’t change the fact that it is absolutely an insult. There are many commonly used words that are insults, and no one here needs me to make a list to come up with some. I ask what you do with your dog for a very specific reason. You seem to be someone who has built their entire opinion and mindset on dogs off of internet forums and articles. You remind me of a crowd that called Chris Spod Lazov a weak dog with no fight but heaped praise on Bordy Blendy for his performances.


----------



## SuperAndre

Jen84 said:


> And for those interested in Nog's pedigree. I just want to share a really nice quote that sums things up nicely IMO.
> 
> In regards to Asko von der lutter, from Nate Harves:
> 
> _"One thing to keep in mind, this was not a flavor of the month dog used by internet idiots listening to other internet idiots...this dog got breedings from knowledgeable kennels and individuals, for several, several years, right up until he died at almost 15 years of age."_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Asko von der Lutter - Page 7
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.pedigreedatabase.com


Before I made a deposit on Nog / Jadzea I called Carmen to inquire more. Everything I heard from her was truly impressive. Nog's pedigree has some very amazing dogs in it with natural ability to work in Scent and Herding. Nog's Uncle Nicholas was extremely bright and easily trainable and in fact was easily handled by a 6 year old. Though Carmen had so much amazing things to say it was at times hard to follow with all of the different dogs name. But everything about Nog and his pedigree was all very impressive.


----------



## Jen84

Steve Strom said:


> I have a few clues once and a while, but before they trace your IP and toss you, show us something. Come on.





Steve Strom said:


> Ah, perfect. One of those times I'm glad to have been wrong. A great opportunity for some shared insight, hopefully beyond what other people have posted.


Hey Steve, I know you like riddles. You ever watch this movie?


----------



## Bearshandler

Jen84 said:


> And for those interested in Nog's pedigree. I just want to share a really nice quote that sums things up nicely IMO.
> 
> In regards to Asko von der lutter, from Nate Harves:
> 
> _"One thing to keep in mind, this was not a flavor of the month dog used by internet idiots listening to other internet idiots...this dog got breedings from knowledgeable kennels and individuals, for several, several years, right up until he died at almost 15 years of age." -_ nate harves
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Asko von der Lutter - Page 7
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.pedigreedatabase.com


You bring up a world champion in comparison to an untitled, untitled dog? How about you tell me about nog and his pedigree? Tell me about Aron vom poppitz, the dog he is line bred on.


----------



## Jen84

Bearshandler said:


> You bring up a world champion in comparison to an untitled, untitled dog? How about you tell me about nog and his pedigree? Tell me about Aron vom poppitz, the dog he is line bred on.


How about you apologize for lying?


----------



## Bearshandler

Jen84 said:


> How about you apologize for lying?


What lie?


----------



## Steve Strom

Uh oh, clever use of memes and strong use of other peoples thoughts. I'm done.


----------



## Tikkie

I am with Jax here.
How many of those talking the talk about titling, preymonkeys and circus tricks have actually walked the walk and titled a dog in all three phases?

Let alone put a BH or a single phase on a dog? 

People on here seem to know a lot in theory, but once you actually see their training videos the talk does not match up with their training skills!


----------



## Sabis mom

Not sure any of this is helpful to the OP, who just wanted some info.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

How about everyone cools their jets, so we don't have to start handing out suspensions. 

- Moderator


----------



## Tikkie

Sabis mom said:


> Not sure any of this is helpful to the OP, who just wanted some info.


OP asked about whether she should take puppy classes or go straight to a club because she wants to get into sport. That question is best answered by those who are actively participating in that sport because they know what it takes to title a dog in all three phases.
If I want to learn how to bake a cake, I am not going to a plumber. 😉


----------



## CeraDean

I think if a person wants to do Schutzhund, find a breeder that titles their own dogs in IGP, confirm that puppies bred from that breeder have also titled. And then start from that list.


----------



## Sabis mom

Tikkie said:


> OP asked about whether she should take puppy classes or go straight to a club because she wants to get into sport. That question is best answered by those who are actively participating in that sport because they know what it takes to title a dog in all three phases.
> If I want to learn how to bake a cake, I am not going to a plumber. 😉


Yup. Then we have about 8 pages of slamming a breeder who has probably forgotten more then most will ever know and a bunch of bickering about who has the biggest.
Welcome to the world of online gods.
OP clearly and repeatedly said he wanted to have fun with a stable family dog.


----------



## Steve Strom

Sabis mom said:


> Yup. Then we have about 8 pages of slamming a breeder who has probably forgotten more then most will ever know and a bunch of bickering about who has the biggest.
> Welcome to the world of online gods.
> OP clearly and repeatedly said he wanted to have fun with a stable family dog.


The OP never once said anything like that. He has specific goals in mind.


----------



## AlexLafram

Bearshandler said:


> You bring up a world champion in comparison to an untitled, untitled dog? How about you tell me about nog and his pedigree? Tell me about Aron vom poppitz, the dog he is line bred on.



What about Aron Vom Poppitz?
I’ve heard nothing but positive things ?


----------



## Steve Strom

AlexLafram said:


> What about Aron Vom Poppitz?
> I’ve heard nothing but positive things ?


There's good dogs back there in the pedigree, the question would be what does Nog have in him from them.


----------



## AlexLafram

Steve Strom said:


> There's good dogs back there in the pedigree, the question would be what does Nog have in him from them.



Ahh 
I thought that there was something specific to Aron, what kind of dog he was


----------



## Steve Strom

AlexLafram said:


> Ahh
> I thought that there was something specific to Aron, what kind of dog he was


I just accept that those dogs were good dogs and someone thought enough of them to breed them. What matters to me most is what I can see in the parents of my pup. If those dogs aren't active and proven to some extent in the venue I'm interested in? I'm just not willing to take someone's word for it. No one I've ever known or been involved in dogs with has ever tried to convince me otherwise.


----------



## Jen84

Steve Strom said:


> The OP never once said anything like that. He has specific goals in mind.


Just for the record, from page three:




AnisL said:


> That is the main thing, let's not get caught up in a never ending what can or can't they do best. For me having a well bred stable confident solid dog that is not going to shy away from any activity we decide to do toghether is most important. Competition if any is extra


----------



## AnisL

Like I told the breeder, I simply decided to go with an option that is going to be safer. Official health certificates are safer no one can question that. I've also come to understand that Titles prove trainability and ability to do the work on paper. Now some of you disagree with that, but I had two options: make a decision based on opinions or make it based on official qualifications. My desire to pursue sport also grew the more I learned about it. Maybe these dogs can do the work and can stay healthy for 15 years, but I'd rather not gamble it.


----------



## Bearshandler

AlexLafram said:


> What about Aron Vom Poppitz?
> I’ve heard nothing but positive things ?


There’s a reason I chose Aron but that’s not important. When you look at a pedigree and see a dog being line bred on, you should ask questions about that dog, what they bring to the table, and why they were line bred on. The conversation should always start and be centered on the actual dogs involved in the breeding.


----------



## Jen84

AnisL said:


> Like I told the breeder, I simply decided to go with an option that is going to be safer. Official health certificates are safer no one can question that. I've also come to understand that Titles prove trainability and ability to do the work on paper. Now some of you disagree with that, but I had two options: make a decision based on opinions or make it based on official qualifications. My desire to pursue sport also grew the more I learned about it. Maybe these dogs can do the work and can stay healthy for 15 years, but I'd rather not gamble it.


I think you're doing the right thing for what's comfortable with you. The most important thing for you is to decide exactly what you want. Then find a breeder that produces what you want and be able to trust them fully to pick you the correct puppy to suit your lifestyle.

Take your time and keep researching.


----------



## Max’s Owner

Elisabeth Ann Parent said:


> Well, I have two dogs VERY closely related to one of these breeding males.
> 
> If your saying all of these dogs were chosen for bettering the breed for EITHER work or sport... I very much disagree.
> 
> Knew probably 50+ dogs related to one of them both in first and secondary breedings.
> 
> I'm gonna let this thread go now..
> 
> But if you have a pup from the ones related to my dogs (i will let you do the digging) then get insurance or a goooood savings account and befriend your vet.


Which dog?


----------



## Chip Blasiole

AnisL said:


> Like I told the breeder, I simply decided to go with an option that is going to be safer. Official health certificates are safer no one can question that. I've also come to understand that Titles prove trainability and ability to do the work on paper. Now some of you disagree with that, but I had two options: make a decision based on opinions or make it based on official qualifications. My desire to pursue sport also grew the more I learned about it. Maybe these dogs can do the work and can stay healthy for 15 years, but I'd rather not gamble it.


I understand your reasoning, but as I stated before, a vet who is skilled at reading hip and elbow radiographs can give just as good of an assessment as a panel of vets from OFA. The value of titles to me, is learning how to become a better trainer and recognizing what your dog's strengths and weaknesses are. Pups are always a gamble. It is less about titles as it is what you want to do with the dog and what type of dog you would like to do it with. Looking at a pedigree to see if the dogs are titled doesn't tell you much about a particular dog in a predigree or how he/she produces. The way IGP has changed over the years, as a sport, I don't think it tells you a lot about the dog as it is a trainer's sport and the success of the dog says a lot about the trainer's skills. Many high level trainers only want to train a dog that fits into their training program rather than adjusting to what will get what you want out of the dog.


----------



## Nscullin

The thing about official OFA/SV hip and elbow ratings is that the ratings are the gold standard. Lets look at humans for example: Can a general practitioner look at an X Ray and see whats going on? Yes, of course they can, however, each x ray is still sent to a radiologist for an official report. 

Titling dogs:

Titling dogs is a second gold standard. It is what is expected. Now, for me, a dog gets a free pass if they are actually working (MWD, LEO, PPD) and I think that most feel that way. Standards exist for a reason. Titling an animal can explain so much about the dog. Example: There was mention in this thread earlier of a dog being rehomed from this kennel bc it was too civil for family life (ill keep it clear in saying that it was also mentioned that this was not the dog or owners fault). Did the breeder not know that the breeding would produce dogs that would be too much for a family? Did they not know this puppy was one? Things happen, no doubt about that, but this is a failure of the breeder in my honest opinion especially when you take into account the owner was barely a teenager and this is the dog that was put in their hands. How could titling have helped this situation? Well, lets assume the breeder did not know they were producing civil dogs.. When checking in during and IPO trial there is a temperament analysis, the parents of these dogs might have failed, the may have bit, they may have been declared "dangerous dogs" by your big schutzhund organizations. 2, during a trial the dog cant just bite whatever it wants and its a struggle for several sports dogs not to bite the judge, etc. If one of the parents in a pair struggles to get through check in, even if it is an excellent dog on the field, it may be a good idea to do a very good analysis of the puppies from that litter before just handing them out like stimulus checks (haha). 

Third, and most important for me in this situation is the OP. OP, you have the right to do anything you want. If this pairing is the dog you want, go for it. Just remember in doing so, you get what you get. All you will know about some most of the dogs is what someone told you. Take it for what its worth and roll the dice, or get a pup from a breeding where you can see accomplishments and worthiness on paper. Up to you. Ive always been a fan of objective rather than subjective data. Believe half of what you see and none of what you hear.

Lets not forget that standards exist for a reason. Most follow them and if you dont, you should have a **** good reason. Last thought, I got my female from a breeder who sounds very similar to carmen, the dog is great. Her health...not so much. This month alone Ive spent $100 on food and $145 on cytopoint. While some things cant be predicted, they happen and if i would have been more knowledgeable at the time, i wouldnt have purchased a dog linebred on falk and tom


----------



## Katsugsd

Was OP's original question answered? I'd stick with a club that can help you as a first time handler unless the trainer at the facility doing puppy class has experience training sport dogs. I've seen one trainer use two different philosophies for dog training. The pet training was more compulsion and the sport was more positive, reward based.


----------



## Chip Blasiole

A GP can tell a broken bone from an x-ray. Reading x-rays for ED/HD is not rocket science. The assessor has to be knowledgeable. What is titling dogs a gold standard for and in what sport? GSD show line dogs have the same titles a GSD working line titles. Do those same titles explain much about the dog or about the system? Judging is subjective. A breeder that doesn't know that he is likely to have some civil dogs in a litter should not be breeding. Civil is on a continuum. Largely due to the influence of IGP, you now have sport lines and working lines in the breed, with a minority of dogs that can do both but probably excel at one or the other. 
Katsugsd,
Compulsion for pet training and inducement for sport training is the norm.


----------



## Nscullin

Chip Blasiole said:


> A GP can tell a broken bone from an x-ray. Reading x-rays for ED/HD is not rocket science. The assessor has to be knowledgeable. What is titling dogs a gold standard for and in what sport? GSD show line dogs have the same titles a GSD working line titles. Do those same titles explain much about the dog or about the system? Judging is subjective. A breeder that doesn't know that he is likely to have some civil dogs in a litter should not be breeding. Civil is on a continuum. Largely due to the influence of IGP, you now have sport lines and working lines in the breed, with a minority of dogs that can do both but probably excel at one or the other.
> Katsugsd,
> Compulsion for pet training and inducement for sport training is the norm.


Yes, yes they can but what they cannot do is certify. That matters. Titling is the gold standard. Always has been chip, it’s no big secret. And I’ll go as far to say that I do not disagree in the point you’re trying to make but that’s another topic. Ipo was it for a long time. Now people seem more open. Psa, ipo, ring etc seem to becoming widely accepted. 

And in regards to civil, yes. But this is the breeder in question. 

Also, I know your dogs parents are not titled but the big difference here is that you knew what you wanted. Same with David. You knew enough about the dogs in questions. This person does not seem to have that knowledge base at this time


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tikkie

How many regular vets dont even know how to properly position for OFA xrays?
So excuse me if I dont trust just any vet to make a proper judgement on my dogs health.
How many people have we seen over the years on forums and facebook talking about their vets recommending a full hip replacement and it turns out the dogs were terribly positioned by said vets and actually completely healthy. 

Just because someone is a veterinarian, does not mean they have the experience to position a dog and/or read those xrays!


----------



## Nscullin

Honestly x rays without certification is what I expect to see from the average pet owner with no intentions to breed or anything. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Chip Blasiole

To clarify, I didn’t say any vet, I said a vet skilled in reading x-rays, and the dam of my pup is IPOI. I didn’t based my selection on titles but likely genetics.


----------



## Bearshandler

The simple thing with titles, I would expect someone who has worked and titled a dog, or trained a dog for a working venue, to know more about the dog than someone who doesn’t. If you tell me a dog can handle pressure from a decoy, maintain a calm full grip while bringing fight and be clear headed enough to follow commands accurately on the first try, how do you know that if the dog has never been worked? The titles tell me the dog has actually done something and I’m not just taking your word for it. There’s also the fact that dogs actively used in sports are seen by multiple people, so you can get opinions on them different people. I agree that success at the high levels of sport, all of them, is heavily dependent on great training.


----------



## Bearshandler

Chip Blasiole said:


> To clarify, I didn’t say any vet, I said a vet skilled in reading x-rays, and the dam of my pup is IPOI. I didn’t based my selection on titles but likely genetics.


How many vets do you know that you trust to do this and how did you find these vets?


----------



## Bearshandler

Getting great obedience is about more than prey drive. The things I wanted when I got my last puppy that I felt would help me be successful are high prey dive, high food drive, high pack drive, medium high level of handler sensitivity, strong nerves that where rarely phased and quickly bounced back when they were, generally hard, and the ability to bring strong active aggression without breaking under pressure. So far, it has made training the younger dog easier and more enjoyable than the first. These were based on my preferences, and someone else’s may be different. A lot of these things you can see in the parents, some you can see in young puppies. While I did look for titled parents, I didn’t go looking for dogs that were on the world teams or national champions necessarily. While the sire of my dog is titled, he isn’t the type of dog that’s going to compete and win at a high level. High level being nationals and such, not not obtaining an IGP3. It s also important to consider the other half. The dam was very achomplished in her own right. She was a softer, more biddable dog than the sire and I felt had a good chance to balance out what he brought to the table. So far I’m very happy with the dog I have. This is what I looked for and found.


----------



## Tikkie

Whats your definition of “great obedience”?

Strong and active aggression? Just from your videos, I can see you are at a beginner level with lack of guidance. Thats not a bad thing. But what you describe is not always easy to handle for a beginner. A dog that takes all the pressure, with strong active aggression and medium handler sensitivity...?

Most beginners wouldnt even know how to handle a dog like that at 2-3 years of age. Especially with mediocre obedience and control.


----------



## Bearshandler

Tikkie said:


> Whats your definition of “great obedience”?
> 
> Strong and active aggression? Just from your videos, I can see you are at a beginner level with lack of guidance. Thats not a bad thing. But what you describe is not always easy to handle for a beginner. A dog that takes all the pressure, with strong active aggression and medium handler sensitivity...?
> 
> Most beginners wouldnt even know how to handle a dog like that at 2-3 years of age. Especially with mediocre obedience and control.


Interesting. I would say great obedience is a dog that scores consistently in the 90s in this context. What videos are you referring to?


----------



## Nscullin

I find your dog description a little contradictory 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tikkie

Bearshandler said:


> Interesting. I would say great obedience is a dog that scores consistently in the 90s in this context. What videos are you referring to?


your training videos with your “aus dem Tal” dog.


----------



## Bearshandler

Tikkie said:


> your training videos with your “aus dem Tal” dog.


I don’t think I’ve ever posted a video of me training anything.


----------



## Bearshandler

Nscullin said:


> I find your dog description a little contradictory
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Which part?


----------



## Tikkie

Nscullin said:


> I find your dog description a little contradictory
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not at all, you can have all of that in the same dog. People often misunderstand handler sensitivity as soft. Its not the same.


----------



## Tikkie

Bearshandler said:


> I don’t think I’ve ever posted a video of me training anything.


You posted videos of Cion and your channel is public. Its all right there. Again, we have all been beginners at a point. Obviously you are very passionate. 









My new guy, Cion


Neither of my dogs like walking on this thing. They will do it, but there’s no enthusiasm for it. I decided to see how Cion would handle it when a ball was involved. I still owe David a working video, but I didn’t end up working him the last time out. I’ll try to get that video the next time...




www.germanshepherds.com





Just be careful what you wish for in a dog. Beginners always want these strong dogs with tons of active aggression when they have already problems handling a medium driven dog.


----------



## David Winners

Tikkie said:


> Not at all, you can have all of that in the same dog. People often misunderstand handler sensitivity as soft. Its not the same.


My current challenge, with myself, is breaking old habits formed by training very handler hard dogs (KNPV). Having a handler sensitive/biddable dog is very refreshing. This sensitivity has no connection to being soft in work so far.


----------



## Jax08

Handler sensitivity is tricky. Both my dogs are very sensitive to me so correcting them is a very fine balancing act. It makes them easier to train in obedience but harder to train in tracking. I've learned to not create conflict when there are better ways. Especially with my female who was redirecting at me in frustration as a puppy. However, they are not sensitive to others and the more pressure put on them, the better they are.

Biddability is not necessarily connected to sensitivity. A dog can be biddable and not handler sensitive.


----------



## Tikkie

David Winners said:


> My current challenge, with myself, is breaking old habits formed by training very handler hard dogs (KNPV). Having a handler sensitive/biddable dog is very refreshing. This sensitivity has no connection to being soft in work so far.


Its a beautiful thing and makes them want to be right. It is important to have in dogs that are already very strong. Especially now, where training methods come under scrutiny.


----------



## AnisL

Katsugsd said:


> Was OP's original question answered? I'd stick with a club that can help you as a first time handler unless the trainer at the facility doing puppy class has experience training sport dogs. I've seen one trainer use two different philosophies for dog training. The pet training was more compulsion and the sport was more positive, reward based.


Thank you. About my original question, following I think Jax advice I redirected my question to sport specific groups and had 50+ answers that covered it. Most of them agreeing that sport and pet obedience is very different and must be done separately. It was also recommended that I visit different clubs and see the dogs, meet handlers, watch the dogs interact with the owners in and outside the field to see what type of dog I would want. Most also told me that If they knew the first time what they now know, they would have gotten a very different dog. And that before even considering picking a breeder, I do my research in person and that is exactly what I’m doing. I will not attempt to make another decision remotely.


----------



## GSD07

A question for knowledgeable ppl - can a young hard dog become more sensitive with age/training? Is it possible to develop a partner relationship and bond with an independent, hard, not naturally very biddable dog? Not talking sport here, just regular life and companionship.


----------



## Jax08

AnisL said:


> Thank you. About my original question, following I think Jax advice I redirected my question to sport specific groups and had 50+ answers that covered it. Most of them agreeing that sport and pet obedience is very different and must be done separately. It was also recommended that I visit different clubs and see the dogs, meet handlers, watch the dogs interact with the owners in and outside the field to see what type of dog I would want. Most also told me that If they knew the first time what they now know, they would have gotten a very different dog. And that before even considering picking a breeder, I do my research in person and that is exactly what I’m doing. I will not attempt to make another decision remotely.


yes Yes and YES. I always tell people to go watch the dogs. If nothing else because what I like might not be what you like. If you watch them, you will learn about drives, make contacts and you can see what hte dogs are coming on and off the field. Take your time. Get first hand knowledge. You very well might import a dog because of one you saw on the field. You never know. Don't limit yourself.


----------



## Jax08

GSD07 said:


> A question for knowledgeable ppl - can a young hard dog become more sensitive with age/training? Is it possible to develop a partner relationship and bond with an independent, hard, not naturally very biddable dog? Not talking sport here, just regular life and companionship.


Just going off my own dogs and dogs that I know are hard and not biddable, I don't think that's the same thing. I think a hard dog can be biddable and in tune to the handler because of trust and relationship but a sensitive dog is a genetic thing. IMO, handler sensitive goes back to nerve.  I think whether it's a bad thing depends on the severity of it. What's your opinion on that?


----------



## Bearshandler

I didn’t want a dog that was too handler sensitive because I wanted a dog less likely to shut down because of a correction. I don’t always have a finesse with corrections.


----------



## Tikkie

GSD07 said:


> A question for knowledgeable ppl - can a young hard dog become more sensitive with age/training? Is it possible to develop a partner relationship and bond with an independent, hard, not naturally very biddable dog? Not talking sport here, just regular life and companionship.


Sometimes the energy and drive of a young dog covers up nerve and sensitivity and once they mature it seems like they are becoming more sensitive when in reality it has always been there but was overriden by all that energy.

Yes, you can certainly build a relationship and bond of mutual respect with a hard dog. It truly depends on the type of dog too.

You can have a sweet and neutral dog that is super chill at home, best pet dog ever, and on the field he is a super resilient and hard dog with explosive drives and strong active aggression. A dog where you would never know whats in him if you didnt saw him works. Those are generally very forgiving dogs. No matter what you do to them, they will pick up and just go with the flow.

And then you have those where you can see a strong presence. They carry themselves in a way that demands respect. Those that make you stop in you tracks. If they so much as sense some insecurity they will take advantage and bully you around and will test anyone that handles them. But its all in good fun. They are the jocks!

You have the really serious unforgiving ones. They wont take any unfair correction and will come up the leash if they feel like they were treated unfairly. Those are the ones where you truly have to earn your respect.

Thats just a small selection of the different types I have seen and owned.


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## Chip Blasiole

Bearshandler said:


> How many vets do you know that you trust to do this and how did you find these vets?


I know people,who breed KNPV Mal X's and they have vets they trust and don't go to OFA. In reality, certification means nothing. The x-ray and the correct reading is what matters.


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## David Winners

Tikkie said:


> Its a beautiful thing and makes them want to be right. It is important to have in dogs that are already very strong. Especially now, where *training methods come under scrutiny.*


This is an interesting point. There is a current thread about the handler punching the dog. I am not getting involved because my answers would be controversial at best and would be seen as abusive by some (most?). Shutting down handler aggression in a handler hard dog is far more about attitude and winning than any particular training technique. 

A dog that is handler oriented is far easier to handle in this situation, even if they have decided that the reward is worth a fight.


----------



## Tikkie

Chip Blasiole said:


> I know people,who breed KNPV Mal X's and they have vets they trust and don't go to OFA. In reality, certification means nothing. The x-ray and the correct reading is what matters.


It means everything for others to do research on health results!
If I want to breed to another dog I want public results from as many of the dogs a male has sired. I want to see the track record of the dog and the history behind them. If I cant do that research, its useless to me!
And being certified by an independent organization also means you cant screw around with the results and fake them!


----------



## Tikkie

David Winners said:


> This is an interesting point. There is a current thread about the handler punching the dog. I am not getting involved because my answers would be controversial at best and would be seen as abusive by some (most?). Shutting down handler aggression in a handler hard dog is far more about attitude and winning than any particular training technique.
> 
> A dog that is handler oriented is far easier to handle in this situation, even if they have decided that the reward is worth a fight.


I am with you. I currently have a dog that is very hard and it is a constant fight even over the little things. It is rare to have a female like this. She is biddable but not sensitive at all. She also frustrates very quickly and she will bite me. The only way to get through to her is via the dominant dog collar. It is subtle and effective. She is also closely related to Jax female. Basically the same type of breeding. So we see the same mannerisms and behaviors.

I had strong females before, but her? I get the punching part. I would lie if I said I didnt have days where I wanted to just punch her 🙈


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## Chip Blasiole

The people I'm referring to know a lot of the people they sell their pups to and generally, if the pup doesn't work out, they take the pup back and refund the money. They even let you test out the pup for a while and you can bring it back if it is not what you wanted.


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## Sabis mom

I think something that I have seen a lot of is people expressing an interest in bite sports and then ending up with dogs that are likely great dogs but far too much for a novice owner to handle. It's the equivalent of putting a green rider on a grand prix horse. Or a rookie driver behind the wheel of a McLaren.
The other issue I see is loading novice owners with terminology that they then regurgitate to breeders, giving a false impression of knowledge where there isn't any.


----------



## Bearshandler

Tikkie said:


> You posted videos of Cion and your channel is public. Its all right there. Again, we have all been beginners at a point. Obviously you are very passionate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My new guy, Cion
> 
> 
> Neither of my dogs like walking on this thing. They will do it, but there’s no enthusiasm for it. I decided to see how Cion would handle it when a ball was involved. I still owe David a working video, but I didn’t end up working him the last time out. I’ll try to get that video the next time...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.germanshepherds.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just be careful what you wish for in a dog. Beginners always want these strong dogs with tons of active aggression when they have already problems handling a medium driven dog.


I've been training for schutzhund for 2 years. Overall, I've had about 10 dogs. I'm very aware of what I want in my dog. As for the videos, if you want to see what his training looks like I can try to film that for you. There isn't really any training posted there, aside from one video about something else.


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## Jax08

Tikkie said:


> She is also closely related to Jax female. Basically the same type of breeding. So we see the same mannerisms and behaviors.


Breed Kinski to Karn...it'll be fun they said....


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## Tikkie

On second thought, sitting on top of the dog and punching the dog is exteme. Not something I personally would do. There are better ways to deal with situations like these.


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## Tikkie

Bearshandler said:


> I've been training for schutzhund for 2 years. Overall, I've had about 10 dogs. I'm very aware of what I want in my dog. As for the videos, if you want to see what his training looks like I can try to film that for you. There isn't really any training posted there, aside from one video about something else.


I would love to see some of your current training and will be more than happy to share my thoughts. We have all once been beginners and young handlers need to be supported.🙂


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## Lukas77

Would a person new to SCH know anyway what level of titles and points are relevant for a certain breeding? In a way you have to trust the breeder they are serious about workingability and health of the parents and relatives. There are very good dogs with very little or no sporttitles that produce better dogs healtwise and workingwise than a pedigree with famous dogs from nice titles from both IPO and KNPV. Many malinois breeders rarely title females in ringsport for example what I´ve seen, just like there are good breeders of working GSDs for various tasks that don´t only use dogs with IPO or other sporttitles. Titles and points in itself can´t be the goal but of course it would be nice if every dog for breeding was also titled, don´t know where to draw the line thou and it would still be up to breeders to evaluate if the titled dog is fitting for their breeding goals. In my country you need HD/ED-free and a form of working/charactertest to be able to breed the dogs, not so much but it tells you something, even more so if the whole litter is evaluated, this is mandatory for breeding and here is a young dog with some DDR-linage doing it,





This is the korung, a bit more advanced but this is all some breedingdogs have and they still get breedings becasue obviously it´s the breeder who in the end decides if the dog is interessting for breeding or not, like this dog and his brothers that have been used some recently and lacks a pedigree full of IPO-titles, it´s more mix of everything from policedogs to tracking/searchdogs, post the pedigree of his littermate below,




Rapport's Min Kompis


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## Tikkie

Nobody is even talking about points...


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## Saphire

So I said I wasn’t going to enter this conversation but I do need to clear up a couple of things. The X-rays in question were done by a top repro vet who does have the experience and knowledge to assess. They have been sent to OFA.
The next is, no puppy has been returned to Fraserglen for being too civil. One puppy was returned the day after it was picked up due to a family emergency in India. They had the puppy for one night. 
Gus was worked at a club until about 2yrs old until work injuries and surgeries side lined me. Carmen came to every training session to observe Gus and I. Carmen and I met regularly to train with just her and I. He has been assessed by two top level trainers, both of which loved the dog he is. Yes Gus is owned by me and my name is Cathy if that serves as some importance lol. I gave Carmen the all clear to use Gus for stud, no questions asked. Why? Because I trust her beyond what words can explain. She’s an incredible woman with knowledge that would blow most away. Sheena and Carmen go back 35 years, they know each other very well. Carmen is no longer able to whelp litters so they are breeding together, 2 like minds. They trialed and trained together years ago. They know what they want and like. They are NOT looking for the approval of members of this forum. If these two don’t meet the approval of a buyer, they are just fine with that. Lots of breeders to choose from, find the one that feels right and go with it.


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## Jax08

I never said a puppy was returned to Fraserglen. I said it was rehomed. I also don't think I brought up Gus other than to correct your name when I thought your name was Sheena. 

Cathy - I don't think anyone thinks Carmen, or anyone one else, needs the approval of the members of this board. But a person came on here and asked for opinions. We gave them. And they were fair. If anyone other than Carmen was involved in this, people would be up in arms over breeding dogs not even 2 years old with nothing to show they are breed worthy. I'm sorry you are upset and think we are being unfair but nobody is above scrutiny. Nobody.


----------



## Saphire

Jax08 said:


> I never said a puppy was returned to Fraserglen. I said it was rehomed. I also don't think I brought up Gus other than to correct your name when I thought your name was Sheena.
> 
> Cathy - I don't think anyone thinks Carmen, or anyone one else, needs the approval of the members of this board. But a person came on here and asked for opinions. We gave them. And they were fair. If anyone other than Carmen was involved in this, people would be up in arms over breeding dogs not even 2 years old with nothing to show they are breed worthy. I'm sorry you are upset and think we are being unfair but nobody is above scrutiny. Nobody.


If a dog has been rehomed, it was not discussed with Carmen or Sheena as they are not aware of this. That would also be in breach of a signed contract where the breeder is to be notified and given first option to take dog back.


----------



## Jax08

Saphire said:


> If a dog has been rehomed, it was not discussed with Carmen or Sheena as they are not aware of this. That would also be in breach of a signed contract where the breeder is to be notified and given first option to take dog back.


That's not my circus. My point was that some of the litters may not be suitable for first time owners who want to do sport while they may be perfect for experienced people like David.


----------



## Saphire

Jax08 said:


> That's not my circus. My point was that some of the litters may not be suitable for first time owners who want to do sport while they may be perfect for experienced people like David.


It is your circus, you brought it up on this thread.
None of these litters are bred for sport, that is never hidden. People who want to learn and grow with their dogs, will. I did.


----------



## Nscullin

Saphire said:


> So I said I wasn’t going to enter this conversation but I do need to clear up a couple of things. The X-rays in question were done by a top repro vet who does have the experience and knowledge to assess. They have been sent to OFA.
> The next is, no puppy has been returned to Fraserglen for being too civil. One puppy was returned the day after it was picked up due to a family emergency in India. They had the puppy for one night.
> Gus was worked at a club until about 2yrs old until work injuries and surgeries side lined me. Carmen came to every training session to observe Gus and I. Carmen and I met regularly to train with just her and I. He has been assessed by two top level trainers, both of which loved the dog he is. Yes Gus is owned by me and my name is Cathy if that serves as some importance lol. I gave Carmen the all clear to use Gus for stud, no questions asked. Why? Because I trust her beyond what words can explain. She’s an incredible woman with knowledge that would blow most away. Sheena and Carmen go back 35 years, they know each other very well. Carmen is no longer able to whelp litters so they are breeding together, 2 like minds. They trialed and trained together years ago. They know what they want and like. They are NOT looking for the approval of members of this forum. If these two don’t meet the approval of a buyer, they are just fine with that. Lots of breeders to choose from, find the one that feels right and go with it.


No one said the board is judge, jury, and executioner. We’re all just here stating our opinions. And the same way they don’t care about pleasing us, I don’t necessarily care about my comments pleasing them. Just opinions. Take it or leave it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Steve Strom

I would fully expect Carmen not to care what I think.


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## Saphire

Jax08 said:


> I never said a puppy was returned to Fraserglen. I said it was rehomed. I also don't think I brought up Gus other than to correct your name when I thought your name was Sheena.
> 
> Cathy - I don't think anyone thinks Carmen, or anyone one else, needs the approval of the members of this board. But a person came on here and asked for opinions. We gave them. And they were fair. If anyone other than Carmen was involved in this, people would be up in arms over breeding dogs not even 2 years old with nothing to show they are breed worthy. I'm sorry you are upset and think we are being unfair but nobody is above scrutiny. Nobody.


I’m not upset at all. I’m good with my choices and sleep well. I also don’t think anyone is being unfair. I simply wanted to add some missing information. I bought Gus from untitled parents and a health guarantee that said “I guarantee this dog to be free of all genetic illness/conditions”, something I’d never seen before.

I also would not recommend Carmen’s dogs for a first time dog owner. I feel if someone has owned and trained any breed of dogs for years, is willing to learn and has someone of experience to guide them, they could do well with some of Carmen/Sheena’s breedings but that is ONLY if the buyers are up front and honest about their goals and experience.


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## Jax08

Saphire said:


> It is your circus, you brought it up on this thread.
> None of these litters are bred for sport, that is never hidden. People who want to learn and grow with their dogs, will. I did.


No. It is not my circus and I won't break that confidence. Really, it's not your circus either. You aren't the breeder. 

I don't know why you are arguing with me or that you think anyone is above scrutiny. I wasn't even rude about anything. I certainly gave Carmen her due respect. But....Facts are facts. A person asked on an open forum about a breeder and received opinions. We advised them to not get a litter from two unproven dogs who were bred at less than 2 years old with informal xrays. We advised if they wanted to do sport to go to a breeder whose dogs were successful in sport. I advised that not all these litters may be suitable for general family life based on what I know. 

So thank you for noting "none of these litters are bred for sport". Our point was if you want a sport dog buy from someone successful in sport. My point on the rehomed dog was it was not for sport and not for an inexperienced owner. So thanks again for backing up my point. A person can grow and learn with their dogs even if they buy from other breeders who may be more suitable for their desires.

Nobody twisted anyone else's arm, as you seem to think you can do to me on this rehomed dog. One person is still committed to buying from a litter and another person already has a dog. I wish them the best. And another person chose to do more research. I also wish him the best. 

So...conversation over as far as I'm concerned.


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## Saphire

Jax08 said:


> No. It is not my circus and I won't break that confidence. Really, it's not your circus either. You aren't the breeder.
> 
> I don't know why you are arguing with me or that you think anyone is above scrutiny. I wasn't even rude about anything. I certainly gave Carmen her due respect. But....Facts are facts. A person asked on an open forum about a breeder and received opinions. We advised them to not get a litter from two unproven dogs who were bred at less than 2 years old with informal xrays. We advised if they wanted to do sport to go to a breeder whose dogs were successful in sport. I advised that not all these litters may be suitable for general family life based on what I know.
> 
> So thank you for noting "none of these litters are bred for sport". Our point was if you want a sport dog buy from someone successful in sport. My point on the rehomed dog was it was not for sport and not for an inexperienced owner. So thanks again for backing up my point. A person can grow and learn with their dogs even if they buy from other breeders who may be more suitable for their desires.
> 
> Nobody twisted anyone else's arm, as you seem to think you can do to me on this rehomed dog. One person is still committed to buying from a litter and another person already has a dog. I wish them the best. And another person chose to do more research. I also wish him the best.
> 
> So...conversation over as far as I'm concerned.


Michelle
It is convenient to hide behind the condition of anonymity when trying to make a point.


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## AlexLafram

Saphire said:


> I’m not upset at all. I’m good with my choices and sleep well. I also don’t think anyone is being unfair. I simply wanted to add some missing information. I bought Gus from untitled parents and a health guarantee that said “I guarantee this dog to be free of all genetic illness/conditions”, something I’d never seen before.
> 
> I also would not recommend Carmen’s dogs for a first time dog owner. I feel if someone has owned and trained any breed of dogs for years, is willing to learn and has someone of experience to guide them, they could do well with some of Carmen/Sheena’s breedings but that is ONLY if the buyers are up front and honest about their goals and experience.



When I put my deposit down I told Sheena my goal, she was honest about which litter would suit me, 
I myself think that Kai is NOT a puppy for a first time owner to be realistic, I don’t think he will grow up and be a breezy easy dog, 
The way he turns and comes back at me if I tell him no, i touched him during a playful game and he came right back and bit me at 12 weeks, 
Just the fact that he commando crawls under couches, gates, smashed thru things, that’s not first time owner stuff haha 
That off course doesn’t have anything to do with anything anyone’s chatting about but something you said in the post up.
2 hours of convo with Carmen had my head spinning though 
The woman in a German Shepherd encyclopedia, 
I would go her absolutely no justice by trying to even explain to anyone what the litter brought and why she chose it, but there’s tons of reason’s and not once did she mention sport or advertise sport


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## Jax08

Saphire said:


> Michelle
> It is convenient to hide behind the condition of anonymity when trying to make a point.


Oh well, Cathy. My name is Michelle Jeffery. I'm not that hard to find, *Saphire*. And I have no reason to lie and I've always been pretty open and honest on any experience I have and my dogs. There isn't much any of us can do about you being offended because your friend was critiqued on her breeding practices. Good day to ya now.


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## Steve Strom

All the great traits of the previous dogs, once they are no longer being tested for, there's no proof they're still there.


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## Saphire

Jax08 said:


> Oh well, Cathy. My name is Michelle Jeffery. I'm not that hard to find, *Saphire*. And I have no reason to lie and I've always been pretty open and honest on any experience I have and my dogs. There isn't much any of us can do about you being offended because your friend was critiqued on her breeding practices. Good day to ya now.


I thought you were out and conversation was over. Again, I’m not offended at all, I just dislike misinformation being distributed.


----------



## Jax08

Steve Strom said:


> All the great traits of the previous dogs, once they are no longer being tested for, there's no proof they're still there.


Thank you. It's only been said in this thread 100 times in 100 different ways. That goes for any "product". Quit testing and just start riding on reputation and quality degrades. It's really that simple. Every time a dog is bred, the product is a different combination with different attributes. That logic really shouldn't be offensive to anyone who cares about what they are producing.


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## Tikkie

Jax08 said:


> Oh well, Cathy. My name is Michelle Jeffery. I'm not that hard to find, *Saphire*. And I have no reason to lie and I've always been pretty open and honest on any experience I have and my dogs. There isn't much any of us can do about you being offended because your friend was critiqued on her breeding practices. Good day to ya now.


On top of that, I know Michelle personally, we have trained many times together over the last two years. We also title at the same clubs. Nothing anonymous about Michelle. She is a great handler and we share knowledge and help each other. ☺


----------



## Saphire

Tikkie said:


> On top of that, I know Michelle personally, we have trained many times together over the last two years. We also title at the same clubs. Nothing anonymous about Michelle. She is a great handler and we share knowledge and help each other. ☺


Of course you do lol


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## Jax08

Tikkie said:


> On top of that, I know Michelle personally,


Let it go. I'm not going to feed into someone trying to intimidate others and whose goal is being nasty to pick a fight that isn't even there to be had. I wasn't rude to anyone so I'll sleep just fine tonight. It's all good. It's just sad.


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## Thecowboysgirl

"The way he turns and comes back at me if I tell him no, i touched him during a playful game and he came right back and bit me at 12 weeks,"

I'm curious how common this is and how acceptable?


----------



## AlexLafram

Thecowboysgirl said:


> "The way he turns and comes back at me if I tell him no, i touched him during a playful game and he came right back and bit me at 12 weeks,"
> 
> I'm curious how common this is and how acceptable?


I’m not worried
It was corrected appropriately and there’s been no issue since.
So that’s that.


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## Steve Strom

From the German Shepherd club of Canada code of ethics:

Plan all litters with the goal of improving the Breed giving consideration to individual health benefits and concerns. Breed only mature dogs and bitches that have passed all health clearances (OFA or SV hips, elbows), that have a stable temperament and no disqualifying physical faults according to the Parent Club recognized German Shepherd Dog Standard. Implement genetic screening of breeding stock (DM, Cardiac, Thyroid, Dentition) for use in further studies and making it available to other responsible breeders and data bases (OFA, Canine Health Information Center) for the preservation of our breed.


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## Steve Strom

Fraserglen Website:
All of our breeding stock are x-rayed for hip dysplasia, elbow dysplasia 
Ofa website:
_DN53763205_ -No entries match your search entries. Please try again


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## Jax08

Thecowboysgirl said:


> "The way he turns and comes back at me if I tell him no, i touched him during a playful game and he came right back and bit me at 12 weeks,"
> 
> I'm curious how common this is and how acceptable?


I think it depends. 12 weeks? We are stilling teaching bite inhibition at this age. Was the puppy already fired up? What was the bite? Angry? Out of frustration? it's something I would watch if it continued. 

I don't think it's that uncommon in higher drive dogs. I was spoiled with my male. His dam taught her pups exceptional bite inhibition. And then came the Velociraptor. She redirected a few times in frustration when in high drive but stopped as she matured and always looked shocked when she realized it was me she had redirected at.


----------



## AlexLafram

Jax08 said:


> I think it depends. 12 weeks? We are stilling teaching bite inhibition at this age. Was the puppy already fired up? What was the bite? Angry? Out of frustration? it's something I would watch if it continued.
> 
> I don't think it's that uncommon in higher drive dogs. I was spoiled with my male. His dam taught her pups exceptional bite inhibition. And then came the Velociraptor. She redirected a few times in frustration when in high drive but stopped as she matured and always looked shocked when she realized it was me she had redirected at.


yes he was fired up !
And now when I remove something or say “No” sternly, he makes the most godawful noises, won’t use his mouth, I know he thinks about it though because he will protest and bump me with his nose, but the noises.
My god, my 5 year old thinks he sounds like an angry ornery Elmo, which he does, he’s the most vocal dog I’ve met


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## Chip Blasiole

Why do you teach bite inhibition?


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## Steve Strom

Can someone point me to the Virginia Tech exemption in the Breeders code of ethics for the GSDC of Canada? This almost looks like an odd pattern of misinformation?


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## Tikkie

Chip Blasiole said:


> Why do you teach bite inhibition?


Why wouldn't you? Most people live with their puppies. There is no reason not to teach them manners.


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## Chip Blasiole

Because I don’t want to imprint bite inhibition. With my current dog, it would have required extreme measures so I just used negative punishment and left him to himself when things got out of control. Positive punishment had no effect, nor did redirection. He matured out of it fine and has excellent control which PSA requires.


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## Thecowboysgirl

If the xrays have been submitted to OFA what's the big mystery? I don't think I've waited longer than 2 weeks since xrays went digital?


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## SuperAndre

Thecowboysgirl said:


> If the xrays have been submitted to OFA what's the big mystery? I don't think I've waited longer than 2 weeks since xrays went digital?


Sheena told me the xray results should be in any day. The prelim done by the vet said both should pass.


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## Steve Strom

Thecowboysgirl said:


> If the xrays have been submitted to OFA what's the big mystery? I don't think I've waited longer than 2 weeks since xrays went digital?


They weren't submitted before the dogs were bred. Mom still isn't either. Ofa is not only for certification, but its a public database meant to create a record for future use and decisions.


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## Nscullin

Steve Strom said:


> They weren't submitted before the dogs were bred. Mom still isn't either. Ofa is not only for certification, but its a public database meant to create a record for future use and decisions.


Ding ding ding


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jax08

Thecowboysgirl said:


> If the xrays have been submitted to OFA what's the big mystery? I don't think I've waited longer than 2 weeks since xrays went digital?


I don't know which dog Steve looked up but If there is already a 15 week old puppy per one of the poster then the male was bred before he was 2 years old. Per pedigree database, he turned 2 in Oct. OFA could not have results. You can't submit before 2 years.


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## Steve Strom

Jax08 said:


> I don't know which dog Steve looked up but If there is already a 15 week old puppy per one of the poster then the male was bred before he was 2 years old. Per pedigree database, he turned 2 in Oct. OFA could not have results. You can't submit before 2 years.


Nog not being submitted was already established so the reg. number I searched is the female. I looked at another female on the website, and it says she got a passing grade from a university. I don't know where that counts as anything more then my vet says. 

These are all things you tend to see with people being less then upfront. The cynic in me thinks someone started getting questions, went uh oh, and started trying to catch up.


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## Thecowboysgirl

I wondered what's special about Virginia tech? Especially when they are in Canada? 

Wondered why send them there...if sending somewhere why not just to OFA in the first place?


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## Elisabeth Ann Parent

We also habe a leading hospital here who use to certify hips for Canada (OVC) and Dr. Graham who is Ontario's "go to" clinic for both SV and OFA rads... Why not ask them to read them... That's their bread and butter? It's also like an hour away....


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## HollandN

Maybe the dog was bought from the US and was older and had hips done??


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## Saphire

Elisabeth Ann Parent said:


> We also habe a leading hospital here who use to certify hips for Canada (OVC) and Dr. Graham who is Ontario's "go to" clinic for both SV and OFA rads... Why not ask them to read them... That's their bread and butter? It's also like an hour away....


Interesting you say this as Dr. Graham is the vet who took and assessed the X-rays.


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## Elisabeth Ann Parent

Saphire said:


> Interesting you say this as Dr. Graham is the vet who took and assessed the X-rays.


Then why does it say virgina something?

Also.. Even though I trust her and her team, she doesn't certify and will tell you that.

Doesn't justify the fact that an underaged, non titled, non certified dog was bred. THAT is our point.

Pick and chose what to read and respond too... Facts don't change.


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## Tennessee

Jax08 said:


> Take private lessons with an ipo trainer to get your foundation right. Take the puppy to club for socializing


Quoted so you'll read it again. I'm struggling with getting my male's aggressive instincts under control right now with people he doesn't like the looks of for whatever reason, because I didn't put in the time with the latter. Steller OB from Schutz though. The goal is just to get them to passively observe their surroundings, if you need their assistance you'll let them know.


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## GSD07

Thanks Jax08 and Tikkie for responding and giving me food for thought! It's very interesting and relevant because I found myself in the situation kind of opposite to David's. My previous dog was responding to my thoughts, he was very handler focused, bonded since the moment I held him in my arms... I think just sensitive/in tune even though he was not a soft dog by any means. Right now I have a pup who could not care less what I think or want lol He's just so different, not what I expected but regardless I really really like him and want to build the mutual trust and understanding. I am so happy to hear that both of you think this is achievable.



Jax08 said:


> Just going off my own dogs and dogs that I know are hard and not biddable, I don't think that's the same thing. I think a hard dog can be biddable and in tune to the handler because of trust and relationship but a sensitive dog is a genetic thing.





Tikkie said:


> Yes, you can certainly build a relationship and bond of mutual respect with a hard dog. It truly depends on the type of dog too.
> You can have a sweet and neutral dog...
> And then you have those where you can see a strong presence. They carry themselves in a way that demands respect....
> You have the really serious unforgiving ones...


That's a great description of different types. My previous dog was in the first group. The current one I have no idea. It took him 10 months to finally look into my eyes with that special look. I don't even know how to describe it... At that moment I felt that he decided that he likes me  He's my work in progress...

Sorry for the off topic but very much appreciated your input!


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## Jax08

@GSD07 

I hear ya. Seger will work for me just to be with me. Faren would like an itemized list of what's in it for her. It took a while to convince her there was value to me.


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## GSD07

@Jax08 Yes! Itemized list lol I never had to work so hard, puppyhood was a blur  but we are moving in the right direction.


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## Tikkie

Do you know Susan Garrets Ruff Love protocol? Basically shutting him down for a while and that all food comes through you? That in combination with Forrest Mickes should build a good solid bond.


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## Elisabeth Ann Parent

Tikkie said:


> Do you know Susan Garrets Ruff Love protocol? Basically shutting him down for a while and that all food comes through you? That in combination with Forrest Mickes should build a good solid bond.


Off topic: Forrest Mickes 😍 Lol two reasons to watch his vids 😂


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## Jax08

GSD07 said:


> @Jax08 Yes! Itemized list lol I never had to work so hard, puppyhood was a blur  but we are moving in the right direction.


Big difference in Faren changing from a ball to a tug in OB. she would victory laps with the ball. She pushes back at me with the tug and interacts with me.


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## GSD07

Tikkie said:


> Do you know Susan Garrets Ruff Love protocol? Basically shutting him down for a while and that all food comes through you? That in combination with Forrest Mickes should build a good solid bond.


 I know and use the concept and will look both of them up, thank you!


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## patches

Glad the OP is taking his time and learning more about the sport and dogs before committing to a puppy. It's much more fun to do sport with a dog who is bred with the right combination of drives, nerve, and desire to do the work. My first GSD is a WGSL that I got with intentions of playing around in rally obedience and agility. We did pet style obedience classes when he was a puppy and then transitioned into AKC obedience classes. Somewhere along the way I decided to try shutzhund and started private lessons when my dog was about 9 months old. I got hooked, joined the club, and was able to title him to IGP3, but it wasn't easy. I always struggled in obedience with him because of our messy foundation, and he is a naturally more independent dog that wasn't willing to work with me just for the sheer pleasure of heeling. I love my boy and still work him for fun, but he is retired from competition.

I got my next GSD with a more clear idea of what I wanted in a working dog. She is a working line, and she is naturally very biddable and wants to work with me. I did an AKC CGC puppy course with her and agility courses with her for my own fun, not to help with IGP. A private trainer or club is the best place for IGP foundation and handling working dogs. Doing her BH was a breeze of fresh air after trialing my male.

Best of luck to you and have fun with it! As for breeders, I agree strongly with the advice to go meet the dogs and see them training before making a commitment. People love to brag about their dogs, but talk is cheap and means little. My male is titled, breed surveyed, OFA hips/elbows, and he has not been bred. I see no excuse for a breeder not to do this bare minimum with their breeding stock.


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## AnisL

Thank you for the advice @patches Great accomplishments! I wish you success for the future


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## AlexLafram

I’m going to throw this out here because I find it interesting, 
3 pups including Kai are little IPO prospects, and the two others who are not on the forum are not newbies.


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## SuperAndre

AlexLafram said:


> I’m going to throw this out here because I find it interesting,
> 3 pups including Kai are little IPO prospects, and the two others who are not on the forum are not newbies.


Genetics don't lie


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## Nscullin

AlexLafram said:


> I’m going to throw this out here because I find it interesting,
> 3 pups including Kai are little IPO prospects, and the two others who are not on the forum are not newbies.


Update when they’re titled. I’ll be more than happy to congratulate 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Elisabeth Ann Parent

AlexLafram said:


> I’m going to throw this out here because I find it interesting,
> 3 pups including Kai are little IPO prospects, and the two others who are not on the forum are not newbies.


Have the others titled in the sport before? Would be curious at what club their training and who their handlers are? I'm pretty familiar with the IGP community so to be honest would be pretty surprised a IGP competitor would purchase a puppy like this. Feel free to PM me.


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## AlexLafram

Elisabeth Ann Parent said:


> Have the others titled in the sport before? Would be curious at what club their training and who their handlers are? I'm pretty familiar with the IGP community so to be honest would be pretty surprised a IGP competitor would purchase a puppy like this. Feel free to PM me.


I rounded them all up on the gram
I will find out for you, 


Nscullin said:


> Update when they’re titled. I’ll be more than happy to congratulate
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That’s good
Thanks


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## David Winners

GSD07 said:


> A question for knowledgeable ppl - can a young hard dog become more sensitive with age/training? Is it possible to develop a partner relationship and bond with an independent, hard, not naturally very biddable dog? Not talking sport here, just regular life and companionship.


Yes, a hard dog can form a great relationship with the handler. I don't think they become more sensitive. They learn that you can me trusted and that doing what you want is beneficial for them. Hard dogs often take time to bond with a handler, but that bond will come if you are fair and consistent.


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## Max’s Owner

Elisabeth Ann Parent said:


> Well, I have two dogs VERY closely related to one of these breeding males.
> 
> If your saying all of these dogs were chosen for bettering the breed for EITHER work or sport... I very much disagree.
> 
> Knew probably 50+ dogs related to one of them both in first and secondary breedings.
> 
> *I'm gonna let this thread go now..*
> 
> But if you have a pup from the ones related to my dogs (i will let you do the digging) then get insurance or a goooood savings account and befriend your vet.





Max’s Owner said:


> Which dog?


Which dog?


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## Elisabeth Ann Parent

Max’s Owner said:


> Which dog?








Summerview’s Nashville Boy :: Fraserglen Kennels


Nash is a son of Wild Winds Nitro Express “Nitro”. Just like his Dad he is a handsome boy...




fraserglenkennels.com


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## AlexLafram

Elisabeth Ann Parent said:


> Summerview’s Nashville Boy :: Fraserglen Kennels
> 
> 
> Nash is a son of Wild Winds Nitro Express “Nitro”. Just like his Dad he is a handsome boy...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fraserglenkennels.com


I don’t think Nash is being utilized 
I think currently she’s been using Gus and Nog and has been for a while


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## Elisabeth Ann Parent

He is on there under studs 🤷

He shouldn't be used at all based on pedigree and the dogs being produced on both sides.


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## Max’s Owner

Elisabeth Ann Parent said:


> Summerview’s Nashville Boy :: Fraserglen Kennels
> 
> 
> Nash is a son of Wild Winds Nitro Express “Nitro”. Just like his Dad he is a handsome boy...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fraserglenkennels.com


Ahh I thought we were referencing Nog or Gus.


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## AlexLafram

Elisabeth Ann Parent said:


> He is on there under studs 🤷
> 
> He shouldn't be used at all based on pedigree and the dogs being produced on both sides.


I could always ask Sheena but I don’t believe he’s being used current


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## SuperAndre

AlexLafram said:


> I could always ask Sheena but I don’t believe he’s being used current


I have been talking with Sheena for months. Never was there mention of a litter out of the sire Nash and from my understanding this years breeding's will not include Nash either.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Nash is part ASL? Interesting....

Why should he not be used at all?


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## Elisabeth Ann Parent

Nash's lines are riddled with VERY bad health... On both sides in the first two gens... Definitely would be pulled if I was considering to use him as a stud. No matter how nice of a dog he could be.

Sheena can find me here or on FB if she wants proof.


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## Elisabeth Ann Parent

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Nash is part ASL? Interesting....
> 
> Why should he not be used at all?


Extremely bad health on both sides of his pedigree in the first two gens. Especially through the sire line.


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## GSD07

David Winners said:


> Yes, a hard dog can form a great relationship with the handler.


 Thank you David! I am glad that you also believe and I’m sure base it on your experience that the strong bond will come. Right now we are in the “I like you a lot” stage. We train, do things together, do nothing together, go and experience the world. The connection is finally there but it’s not like that love and adoration from the first sight that usually happens with puppies. I don’t think he cared much for me as a puppy but he does now. I am fair and consistent to the best of my abilities, and I am willing to learn. Time will tell.


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## Tikkie

GSD07 said:


> Thank you David! I am glad that you also believe and I’m sure base it on your experience that the strong bond will come. Right now we are in the “I like you a lot” stage. We train, do things together, do nothing together, go and experience the world. The connection is finally there but it’s not like that love and adoration from the first sight that usually happens with puppies. I don’t think he cared much for me as a puppy but he does now. I am fair and consistent to the best of my abilities, and I am willing to learn. Time will tell.


I have two males. Both very resilient and hard dogs. 1 in the first description of personalities and one in the second description.

The one that didnt care for me is the one that has the hardest time to be separated. They may seem like they dont care for us when they actually do. They dont have to be on top of us all the time. They are aloof, dont seek out too much affection and may just lay at our feet. Every once in a while they come for five minuted of head or but scritches, but thats it.

Than you have the super sweet one. That comes and wants to be close all the time. Needs your attention, wants to be on top of you, almost a little controlling. But dropping him off somewhere and living with a new person? He could care less. Thats where my aloof males world would fall apart.


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## David Winners

It took 6 months for us to really get to know each other. It's worth it.

This is the day she retired and I picked her up at Ft Bragg. It had been almost 2 years since I'd seen her.


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## GSD07

♥ Her eyes are shining, and that smile! What a beautiful picture! Yes, they are absolutely worth it.


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## BleuHaus

AnisL said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I'm hopefully getting a working line pup from a reputable breeder this spring and I want to get into sport right away.
> There are a couple of IPO clubs near me that I'm looking at but I was also wondering if I should do puppy class before.
> 
> I can do basic obedience myself but with a working line dog I want to do things right. I don't want to create any habits or mix training methods that will confuse the dog or hurt his potential in sport.
> 
> Should I do puppy class from 2 to say 3-4 months and then start him on IPO or should I just start him right away at 8 weeks with the IPO? Will the IPO cover basic obedience outside sport?
> 
> Thank you!


Hello...I have trained dogs for quite awhile...I train in Schutzhund and dogs for Police Depts...If you have Schutzhund Clubs in your area you ought to visit them and see if you like not only what Schutzhund is but also the Club Members...These clubs will probably have some nice dogs and they might have some puppies...But check out the training and the members...
All Schutzhund Clubs are different...Some are better at helping new members whereas others don't help them as much...I would not only visit these clubs and see what they do and what they train or help new members with...
When you find your puppy a Group Basic Obedience Class would be very helpful in teaching the basics but in Socializing too...
Your welcome in contacting me...I can help you where to find a good puppy...but remember Puppies are a crap shoot...Your buying their parents...


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