# HGH training...progress, videos, from the start



## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

I am currently training my girl Kessy towards an HGH title. We have been training for about a year and a half now, and I plan to title in October of this year. Kessy was about 3.5 years old when we started. With HGH training, things are done a bit differently than in other types of herding. Here are a few links about it...
German Shepherd Herding
Herding Style is Not a Fashion Statement
STARTING GERMAN SHEPHERD DOGS IN HERDING 

I thought I'd share some of the videos of her progress from the start. I know a lot of this will be very boring to many  But hopefully it will be interesting to at least a few people!

First video: Instinct Test!






Basically - all the instinct test shows is that the dog has a sustained interest in the sheep, and that the dog has a solid temperament. A very spooky or aggressive or clingy dog will not be able to do this type of training. 
The sheep are in a pen, and the dog is brought up and down the border to see how it will react to the sheep. Kessy was a little hampered by one thing...
She grew up doing Schh training, tracking in particular. She learned for most of her life that a long line and tall grass means...we're tracking! So she wasn't sure whether to be in tracking mode or not when we did the instinct test. I was told not to talk to her, but towards the end I was allowed to tell her she was good when she paid attention to the sheep, and as soon as she heard that it clicked and she showed a lot of interest. So, she passed her instinct test. But it doesn't mean she's guaranteed to be trainable...it was impossible to say whether her interest in the sheep was purely prey drive or if there was some herding drive in there. Obviously since we are still training it did turn out to be herding drive as well as prey, but at the start you just don't know, at least most of the time. 
This instinct test is very different from tests where there are just a few sheep and the dog is brought in to see if it will "herd" them around the pen. I think a lot of dogs could herd small flocks, but it takes a pretty specific type of temperament to do HGH-style herding, and that temperament can't be seen right away. 

Second video:






In this video, she's been training for about a month. She is able to work off leash now, and the back and forth movement along the fenceline has been established. She is not trying to get through the fence at the sheep, except for moments when she gets overstimulated. She is not yet able to maintain a border on her own, and that was the most difficult part of training. She learned this between the video above and the next video I'm posting.
There are usually 2 methods for HGH trainers to teach the dog a border. One method is to create a gap in the fence, and have the dog run past it and then you gradually open up the gap so the dog is staying on the border. That did not work for Kessy - the fence got her more and more excited and it just wouldn't click. So we had to try the second method, which is where we walk up and down the border with her on a long line. She gets corrected when she tries to go into the graze. At first it didn't click with her and we didn't make much progress...but then it finally started sinking in and she progressed pretty well from there.


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

Next video...





This was taken about 3 months after we started training. I got a new video camera for Christmas  So I had to test it out! This video was the first time Kessy was allowed to work a cross border - up until this day, she had to remain on one border only. Once the dog is solid on two borders, you can add the third and fourth. Some dogs will just run and run once they are allowed to work the full graze and those dogs will have to be limited - but Kessy was never like that, she's always worked where she should which was really nice and unexpected - I was told from the start that just due to the fact that she's not from herding lines, she may not have a feel for the flock and I would always have to show her where the work was. But she blew that idea out of the water and she works really nicely in the graze.

The next videos were taken in May...










This was Kessy's first time with the brand new lambs. They got her a bit overstimulated. She is really amped up and doesn't listen as well as she normally does. But that is pretty common when they see lambs for the first time. We work through it and she does fine.

The next video was from last July. 





She is working the graze but is still a bit excited. She does settle down though and at this point she still doesn't completely understand her job. If the sheep are close to the border she bounces at them and scares them off. She should only be reacting if the sheep are on or trying to cross the border. But this is normal - it is something that takes a long time to develop! 
At about 3 minutes in, you can see the full size of the graze...this one is very large.
My favorite part of this video: at about 9:10 she is running and she cuts the corner. The next time around (at 11:03 ), she almost starts to cut it again but then catches herself mid-stride and corrects...that made me smile! LOL

Next video 





This was taken in September. In this video you can see that Kessy finally understands her job. She patrols well, and when she sees the sheep trying to cross, her body language changes and she will charge after them. This was when she really started to get that her job is to not allow the sheep to cross. It was a really good feeling getting to that point!


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

This video was taken this past week...





It is nothing terribly exciting, just Kessy working the narrow graze. The sheep really aren't pushing or trying to leave the graze so there's not a real challenge here. At about 3:34 if you listen carefully you can hear our trainer cluck to her - we just have to cluck and point to send her in a specific direction. Otherwise in the video she was working on her own. Due to the snow/ice all winter, we didn't get to herd from January through half of March. I really missed herding and am so glad to get back to work!

Here is today's video:





First was the exit from the pen. It was only her 2nd time doing this, so it is NOT perfect. Ideally I could send her to jump into the pen from the opening, but I showed her where to jump this time. She is supposed to hop in and stand, and then I start walking out with the sheep. Once the first few sheep have passed, she is called to the gate into another stand. Here, I give her mixed messages. My crook is still up as I call her forward - the crook is usually used as a block, so she was confused since I was calling her and blocking her at the same time. That was my fault. But she makes it into a stand. The sheep try to head off in the wrong direction but when I call her out, she brings them back. She circles behind the flock which is not what we want. But she doesn't do that very often. Ideally, she should go around the front of flock to the rear, then turn around and come back around the front and do it on the other side. With a large flock she may have to go down one side more than once, but with a flock this size (only 80) that would be too much and would push them in the wrong direction.
Sorry that I didn't get much video of the move. I had a 2nd camera sitting on a fence post, to pick up where the first cut off. But...the batteries died not long after I started it recording, and I didn't get anything 
The wide graze is another big one, and she works pretty nicely. Today she worked for 3 full hours. Here and there I went up to the border to stand with her and put her in a platz to rest for a few minutes. The first time I did this, I noticed 2 sheep crossing the opposite border. I didn't think anything of it - I figured they wouldn't really go anywhere and I could send the dog in a few minutes. Well the next thing I know I here a few "baa's," a few sheep start to move, and then the whole flock is taking off for the opposite border. I had to send Kessy to stop them, which she did and then everything was fine. But it caught me off guard! They tried it again when I let her rest a while later but I was ready that time. I didn't get it on video, I wish I had! It's kinda scary seeing the whole flock run for the hills but I know that Kessy will fly down there to get them when I send her so I didn't panic.

That's all for now...I will post again whenever I get more video.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Thank you for sharing those videos!

Now, jealousy is not a very becoming emotion so I have to move on!

I know it is work but it is also a lot of fun to partner with a German Shepherd on sheepies!!


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

Thanks you so much for these videos! I'll watch them many times. On Monday and Thurs, Stosh is going to be off lead with the sheep in the pen and him on the outside so we're up to your video #2 I guess. Maybe I should have him watch with me so he knows what he's in for! It's really nice of you to do this- these videos are the first I've seen as the training progresses. You could sell them!


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

I have some more video of our herding lesson today. In the last few weeks, we've made a lot of progress.

Two weeks ago we did a very long move, past 2 pastures that the trainer is leaving to grow...they were tall and green and lush. The sheep really wanted to go in as we went by and Kessy had to work to keep them in line. She did a really nice job though. We also did the "traffic" part for the first time...where the sheep are on the road and a vehicle drives by. She's had a vehicle drive down the border when she's been working with the graze here and there, but this was the first time we did it while moving. She did a great job though.

Kessy has also learned to walk in a loose heel at the front of the flock with me. This has its uses and was important to teach. The farm has some narrow areas that we have to go through, and the dog isn't able to work the sides without the risk of splitting the flock or turning them away. So that is one case we'd use this...in the video, we have to go through a narrow gate and I call her up front to walk with me. Also if the sheep are really pushing you (like if you're going down a steep hill, they can run you over), having the dog up front will keep them from doing that. 

This was a bit tricky to teach...originally we tried to call her up front and then block her with the crook to keep her from going down the sides. But it didn't work out, she just kept trying to go around. But then I tried telling her to "fuss" (heel) since she knows that very well, and she got the idea right away.

Right now she is almost ready for the HGH. The trial is not til October though. But she does great in the graze and is pretty solid at moving the sheep...now we will just be fine tuning, and working on the exit from the pen and repen which we haven't practiced a whole lot yet. But it is tricky for him to set those situations up and we have plenty of time to work on those.

The video is taken from 2 perspectives...we had a camera on a tripod and then my hubby was taking video, so if it goes back and forth a bit that's why. But I thought it'd be better to show both.

Here is the video...again I would open it up in YouTube to see it bigger...


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Awesome videos! I can't believe I missed these the first time!


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## KLCecil (Jul 1, 2010)

Very nice!


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

phgsd said:


> I know a lot of this will be very boring to many  But hopefully it will be interesting to at least a few people!


Not boring at all! How often do you get to work with her? (and the sheep)


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

Thank you!
We almost always go once a week, the only exception was through the winter this year when we had to stop completely due to all the snow and ice. We go twice a week at least one or two weeks each month. 

I also forgot to mention...if anyone has any questions I will do my best to answer them. I am not an expert but have learned a lot since we started and if I don't know the answer, I can ask.

We had another lesson today, and when I went to gather the sheep one ewe did not want to come. She had lambed right there as we were talking, and it is the CUTEST lamb ever! The ram is the one with the black head, and the lamb is mostly black but has a little white "mohawk" on its head, white socks, and a white patch on one (or both? not sure) side. As cute as the all white lambs are...I can't wait to see the markings on the ones this year!


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

These are excellent - THANK you for posting them and keeping us up to date.

Stark goes for his HIC this June and if he does well, we are going to be taking lessons as well. I have a feeling it will be more "his thing" than SchH so I will do herding with him and schH with the "mystery dog". 

Going to re-watch a few videos.. lol.. THANKS again!

I am sure I will have questions to come!


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

It's been a while - I thought it was time to post some updates!!

Kessy's training has been going well. The lambs were born in May and June and it makes tending more challenging. The ewes understand that the dog is there to keep them inside the borders and generally behave themselves and if they see the dog coming they'll get back in the graze if they were wandering. But for a while, the lambs have no clue what a border is so they'll cross and will sometimes run the wrong way when the dog comes after them. After a while they do learn to run back into the graze, but will still wander and so it keeps the dogs busy. Kessy has also been given more freedom to grip - it was something we discouraged a lot at the start. She had to learn to work WITHOUT gripping for a long time - otherwise all she'd want to do is grip. But now she is reliable so we are allowing grips when justified. There were a few sessions where she had to grip and chase lambs back into the graze constantly, but now those are tapering off as the lambs have learned the rules.

It is hard to keep the balance though - she now wants to charge in after lambs that are NEAR the border, but not across it. So she gets corrected for that and over time she's learning the difference.

We haven't moved the flock too much, because the lambs are very difficult to move. The last few weeks we've done some short moves. I have some video from today. I thought that maybe I shouldn't post it since it isn't pretty but oh well, I don't mind sharing my mistakes!

The sheep were very full and it was hot - and in the heat they seek out shade and don't want to move in the sun. We can usually get them going without a fuss, but today they were really obstinate and refused to move, even with Kessy pushing on them. It's funny - people say how the sheep are trained and how easy this type of herding is...but the sheep's good will only extends so far. The real mistake here was just my inexperience - I'd never had them refuse to move like this and was not sure what to do which resulted in my sending Kessy around the sheep in circles for a few minutes til our trainer brought his dog out to show me what to do.

I am glad that it happened - he said it is very rare for the sheep to do that, but I'm glad I've learned what to do just in case it should happen on trial day. 

Here is the video - the first minute is just her working in the graze, then it is us failing at moving them, and then us actually getting them going.






When we are moving the sheep, the side closest to my husband (who was recording) is her "weak" side and she doesn't go as far back. It is natural for a dog to have a weaker side and I have to stay on top of her to go back all the way.

Sorry if there is hardly any sound - my video editing program keeps crashing and I am fed up after trying to get it to work for 2 hours!


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

LOVE the videos!! 

Man I would love to get back into tending, I did some when the AKC program first started but didn't continue for a variety of reasons, primarily lack of good training and good sheep! It's hard to find good training......


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Where do you go for HGH style herding? I think there was a fellow somewhere around, I want to say, New England who does it? Ulf Kintzel(sp)?


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

Our trainer is Geary Loff - he is only about 20 minutes from me in Knowlton NJ. Regina you should come out and train - he has the room for another student or two!  
The link to our club is in my sig if anyone wants to see pictures and a few videos of the other dogs. Our trial is in October and anyone would be welcome to come out and watch.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

phgsd said:


> Our trainer is Geary Loff - he is only about 20 minutes from me in Knowlton NJ. Regina you should come out and train - he has the room for another student or two!
> The link to our club is in my sig if anyone wants to see pictures and a few videos of the other dogs. Our trial is in October and anyone would be welcome to come out and watch.



oooooh I know where that is.....it's just over an hour away. OMG I might have to do this. When I get back from my trip I might have to email you about this....

Bunny is 14 months old, should be a good age to start! She's been around sheep once or twice but hasn't done any actual herding (yet).


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

Yes that is a great age to start! It'd be great to have you come out, drop me a line anytime!!


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

It has only been a few weeks, but I wanted to post again before I forget what's been going on! 

We have had some moves like the one shown in the last video, where the sheep do NOT want to move, because it was hot and and because they were very full. But now I know how to get them going - by having the dog create a disturbance in the front of the flock - and am able to get them moving.

We have now progressed from "best case scenario" moves where the sheep are happy to gather and move, to some tough moves. The lesson after I posted last, we were in a HUGE graze (at least 1.5 times a football field size but more square). I called the sheep, they did not gather, so I had to use Kessy to gather them for the first time. In the past, she's just had to tighten them up a bit or gather a small cluster, but this time they were comlpetely spread out. A group of about 6-8 sheep did not come at all and they were at the complete other end of the graze - maybe 75 yds away. I was not sure what to do, and our trainer had left me alone and was waiting for me about 300 yds away where the move would finish. 
I tried to send Kessy out after those sheep, but she did not see them at first and was focused on the sheep that had already gathered. I took her by the collar and pointed to them, and she saw them. I charged her up a bit and then sent her, and she flew after them and chased them back into the main group.

A week or so later, our trainer showed us a different way of getting groups like that to gather. He explained that I should send her down the border to a little past wherever those sheep are, and then call her in off the border towards those sheep. He had me try it by calling the sheep just once and then starting to use her immediately when they didn't gather right away. I called her in off the border and the sheep came running when they saw her coming at them very intensely. This method is a bit safer because if I send her directly after a group and they decide to run the other way instead of going to the flock, it could get really ugly. But by calling her in from behind the sheep it ensures that they will run to the flock.

So we are getting prepared for things that might go wrong in the trial. Last year someone had the sheep refuse to gather and she did not know what to do and it took her at least 15-20 minutes to finally get them to gather and was lucky they gathered at all. I know that will not happen to us! 

So...her moving the flock is pretty solid now and we are learning how to handle any problems the sheep might give us. Now to be ready for the trial in October, we just have to work on the exit from the pen, the bridge, and repen. The exit and bridge should be fairly easy, the repen may be more tricky but with some practice we'll get the hang of it.

Our trainer is saying now that she's really shaping up and it looks like she could make a "real" farm dog which is a great compliment - many dogs can get through a trial but a farm dog is the type that can handle situations in real life. It's like the difference between a "sport dog" and a dog that could make a good police dog in schutzhund. So I am very proud of her


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Very very nice work and use of the breed....does my heart good to see these videos!!!!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

beyond excellent !!! I love to see herding in the proper context for this breed .
here is your Kessy SG1 Kessy vom Waldwinkel - German Shepherd Dog

I like everything about her. I love the picture showing that beautiful functional movement, the suspension, the strength through the back. I love her pedigree.
everything -- thanks for sharing the experience and the videos. There is hope, Cliff, there is hope.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

Thanks so much Cliff & Carmen, it means a lot to hear that. She just keeps getting better and better at herding and we both love it. After the HGH trial I would like to get back into Schh (while still continuing with the herding) to finish off her titles, but for now I am enjoying the peace and...serenity, I guess, that herding provides.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Just caught up on these! Darn I wish I had been able to see it when I was up there last year! 

Just tickled to death at how great Kessy is doing! Proud "godmother" LOL LOL

Lee


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

Lee...you should come out for the trial!!  Okay maybe that's a little far...LOL

But - without Lee, Kessy would not be here with me! I was looking for a puppy and she told me about her breeder. I contacted them, and they'd just had someone back out of one of the pups who were almost old enough to go home - I think due to a death in the family. They were a little hesitant about letting an American take a pup but I am glad they did. They were great people and I got to meet her mother, grandmother, and 1/2 brother.

And then we got stuck in a blizzard on the way home - 4 hr drive took 20 hours. Not fun with a 9 week old puppy in the car...although she was quiet and didn't really cry much, but getting out of the car into 2 ft snow every 2 hours to let her pee was not fun...but at least I'd brought food for her but none for ourselves LOL


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

love your updates!! Congrats to you both, your right, she's getting better and better.
Have fun


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

Well I thought I'd update this thread with the news - I have posted it elsewhere but I'll give some more details!

Kessy got her HGH over the weekend - with a score of 88 points (SG) and High in Trial. The judge is a very experienced shepherd with 1000+ sheep of his own. He's won the BLH (HGH equivalent of the BSP in Germany) several times, and was 2nd at this year's BLH. He was wonderful, very kind and friendly, but he also made us earn every point. He wanted to see correct work, but also strong working ability, temperament, and drive. 

My run with Kessy went really nicely. It was our first time trialing, but I really didn't get nervous and it helped that I could stay calm!
She jumped into the pen perfectly, her second stand was a little bit late, but she held it till all the sheep passed. She is so amped up when we start (even though I ran her before the trial), that stands can be hard for her right off the bat. But all of her stands were solid in the trial.

For the bridge, I placed her a tiny bit early, but otherwise it was nice and she came through when called.

The wide graze she did very nicely. She patrols very diligently and does not need much input about where she needs to work. The judge left us in there for a very long time - but I think he could see that she needed time to settle and it helped our overall performance. She tends to turn into the graze a bit when she turns, so lost some points for that. The placement was nice - I was not too far away from the border, but didn't want to risk doing it too far away. 

Leaving the graze, the sheep did not come when I called, so I had to use the dog and she gathered the sheep nicely. On the narrow road, she should move further back along the sides of the flock in general, so lost some points there. She also gripped a lamb who jumped up and kicked her right in the head. It stunned her for a second, but she went right back to work. The entrance to the narrow graze was very nice, and she patrolled very well on her own. There was one spot where she kept coming in as she turned and I had to keep reminding her to stay on the border. Of course that was where the sheep decided to face so she had to work that area a lot of the time. But otherwise the narrow graze was also very nice.

The traffic also went well - looking at the pictures I realize now that I pushed them a little too far off the road on the opposite side of the car, but didn't realize that at the time. But she did a nice job, switched over when called, and then worked the traffic side again.

The repen went nicely. She was placed correctly. The last few sheep took some time to go into the pen, but I didn't want to risk sending her back after the last few sheep since it is not something we practiced much, and I waited and let them go in on her own.

In the HGH, obedience, diligence, and independence are all 10 points each. 
Kessy got full points for diligence and independence, but lost some for repeated commands (mostly for the first 3 stands! the rest were solid). The judge was impressed with her and I am very proud that I could show her to the best of my ability. We have a few things to work on for next year but for our first time out I couldn't be happier!

I posted all the pictures on this thread:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/pictures-pictures-pictures/169045-pictures-our-hgh-trial.html


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

Meghan, after attending the HGH trail on Sat at Ulf's (my first time watching), I was able to picture everything you just spoke about. Sounds like you to did a fantastic job. Congratulations on your new title!


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

I wondered when you were going to post! It was a lot of fun watching you guys. Congrats again!!


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

I just thought I'd post a bit on Kessy's training since the HGH trial last month. 
We have been really challenging her and every time she's stepped up to the task. We've put her in HUGE grazes (like 3-4x the size of a football field!) and she worked them perfectly. We've left her alone in a graze to see if she'd work without us present, and have been teaching her to gather the flock at a distance. We've also been teaching her to work the front or back of the flock, which isn't something that's really needed for the trial, where you primarily work the sides, but is useful in "real life" situations.

We had a real challenge this week although it was not intentional!
The ram was turned out with the flock early this week. He's a new ram, he's HUGE (250+ pounds), and had never been worked with a dog before. The trainer worked him with his dogs all week and had no issues so he felt the ram was ready to be worked by students' dogs.
He was fine in the graze although he kept looking at Kessy. But when we moved the flock, he just wouldn't cooperate. He was not really staying close to the group and so Kessy would grip him, which usually makes the sheep stay with the bunch, but he just didn't seem to get it. After a number of passes and grips, I think he got fed up, and he just stopped and refused to move. Kessy gripped him on the leg, and again, normally the sheep understand that that means to stay with the group. But he turned on her and tried to ram her with his head.
That was kind of a scary moment - Kessy looked TINY next to him! But she is really quick and she got up under his neck and gripped him there (which is also allowed). But she just wouldn't let go! So I had to move to the back of the flock and when I got close enough and yelled, she let him go and he ran to the flock...so I think she got her point across!
But by that time, the rest of the flock had taken off on me, so I had to send Kessy to gather them. That is something we've done before, and I wasn't too worried about it, but one of the lambs tried to take off and I think she took some of her aggression from the ram out on the lamb. But the lamb was fine and the sheep made it to the next graze.

It was unexpected and not something I'd want to happen again, but it is kinda cool to know that she will not back down from a ram that is 3 or 4 times her size!!! She'd never been truly challenged by a sheep before, and you never know how the dog will react (although I had a feeling), but she was up to the challenge.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Meghan, I really enjoyed reading through this and watching the videos! Congrats on your's and Kessy's accomplishment!


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## Richiegs (Nov 10, 2011)

Amazing. Your GSD was very hardworking! Did she need any guidance from you or did she work instinctively?


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

Thank you 
In the beginning she needed a lot of guidance. She mostly wanted to chase sheep - she didn't understand that she needed to stay on the border. But she got the idea and over time we developed her instincts to their full potential. Now, when she's working in the graze, she rarely needs any input from me. I could lay down for a 2 hour nap and when I get up she'd still be patrolling and the sheep would be where they're supposed to 
When moving them, we do have to work as a team but she does most of the work and I just send her where I think she's needed most. She has very good instincts for gathering and keeping them together so it helps A LOT!


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

I have 2 more videos to share.

The first is of us bringing the sheep out of the orchard. It looks simple but it's deceptive - it's very advanced due to the hairpin turn we have to make. Kessy is placed in a stand inside the orchard, and if she breaks the stand early, it would split the flock in two and half would be inside the orchard and the other half on the outside. The sheep don't understand to go around to the gate and would probably try to go through the fence and when that didn't work they'd probably take off to eat apples. So it's important that the dog holds the stand.






The second video was from yesterday. She'd worked for 2 hours before we moved them so was nice and settled for the move.
I like the perspective, you can see how "light" the flock is. It's down to 115 sheep and the smaller the flock, the lighter the sheep. You can see how when she switches sides, the whole flock moves over from side to side like they're drunk. If the flock was 200+ that wouldn't happen.
At one point I send her for a grip on a lamb that was in the front but was away from the flock. She doesn't let the lamb go so I have to tell her to leave it. But the grip was justified because the lamb wasn't with the flock. The sheep know that as long as they're with the flock, they're safe, but sometimes they like to test things! 

You can also see that the left side (looking at the flock) is her weaker side. She goes all the way back on the right side with no prompting, but I do have to make her go back on the left side. It's funny - her weak side has switched since we started, it used to be the other way around! But it's getting easier and easier to make her go all the way back, and hopefully we can phase that out over time.


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## Richiegs (Nov 10, 2011)

Since there are so many sheep to look after, I think it will be nice if there are 2 GSDs to do the this herding work.


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

In the BLH...which is the national herding competition in Germany, they are allowed to use 2 dogs, and most do. The flock size is 400+, I think up to 1200. Only one dog is judged - the other dog is just there for support. However the 2nd dog must be well trained because if it messes things up for the main dog, it will cost it points.

For a flock this size, 2 dogs would be too many. A good dog can tend 200 sheep by itself with no problem, and when it's down to 115 the flock is very light and a powerful dog like Kessy can make them a little nervous when we're moving them.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

Meghan it's so cool to watch these videos, especially now that we've been out on those fields! You guys do such a great job.


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

Thanks Regina!! I hope I can make it out soon to see Bunny, I am dying to meet her!


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

We're both enjoying our time with the sheep. The long line is gone (YAY!) and I'm able to stand out with the sheep, tho Bunny does test the situation once in a while. Hey better to get that over with now, right? Geary keeps apologizing for how slow he's taking us.....it doesn't seem particularly slow to me, heck we only started in the middle of October! 

Bunny understands that she isn't supposed to enter the graze, but hasn't quite made the connection that her job is to keep the sheep IN the graze. We're getting there tho!


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## anjum (Oct 29, 2011)

Absolutely fascinating, IMO anyways! I hope to train in herding someday, as I also hope to have a farm someday.  Very cool to see Kessy's progress, helps me to understand an overview of how the training works. Thanks for sharing!

Oh, and congrats on the HGH title! Seems like you two earned it pretty quickly - a testament to your training & her temperament.


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## Richiegs (Nov 10, 2011)

phgsd said:


> In the BLH...which is the national herding competition in Germany, they are allowed to use 2 dogs, and most do. The flock size is 400+, I think up to 1200. Only one dog is judged - the other dog is just there for support. However the 2nd dog must be well trained because if it messes things up for the main dog, it will cost it points.
> 
> For a flock this size, 2 dogs would be too many. A good dog can tend 200 sheep by itself with no problem, and when it's down to 115 the flock is very light and a powerful dog like Kessy can make them a little nervous when we're moving them.


I could not believe your GSD was so focused to her work and hardworking. Kessy kept running up and down non-stop. If I were in the business of raising sheep, I definitely would use 2 GSDs to herd and to protect the sheep and to lessen the heavy workload. I wish I could have a human worker like that! Did Kessy decide when and where to run by herself or you have to give her command constantly?


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## gsdheeler (Apr 12, 2010)

WOW, Watching these videos has given me some hope. I had my third lesson today out in the mud and rain. You make it look easy.
I'm afraid I had my hands full with only 4 sheep, the fat buggers almost knocked me on my ars.


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

Thanks gsdheeler...it looks so easy in the videos but we had our moments too! But Kessy is just so good and SMART that she is *usually* a pleasure to train. She is so drivey that sometimes it can get in the way - but now that she knows what she's doing it usually only helps.

And for tending sheep the GSD is great - but for guarding them, you wouldn't want to leave a GSD alone with the flock. They see the sheep as prey and would chase/injure/kill them. That's what a LGD is for - our trainer has a maremma and she is great at her job. She stays with the flock whenever it's not being tended. We do have a lot of coyotes and bears and she keeps them safe.


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## anjum (Oct 29, 2011)

phgsd said:


> And for tending sheep the GSD is great - but for guarding them, you wouldn't want to leave a GSD alone with the flock. They see the sheep as prey and would chase/injure/kill them. That's what a LGD is for - our trainer has a maremma and she is great at her job. She stays with the flock whenever it's not being tended. We do have a lot of coyotes and bears and she keeps them safe.


Interesting! I was just wondering about this today - does the GSD act as a LGD also, or not. So you just answered that question. I'm kinda glad - gives me more breeds to have on my future farm (I really like LGDs too) 

But do you know, does the LGD hang out when the flock's being tended by you & the GSD? Would the GSD be expected to take on a predator if one approached while tending the flock? Just curious.


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

The LGD goes in a crate when the trainer is tending or when students are there. She is very dog aggressive, and although she is familiar with the trainer's dogs and doesn't act aggressively towards them, they don't mix. If you had a farm and the LGD saw your GSD's as part of the "pack" then I don't think there would be an issue. 

I am not exactly sure if a GSD would be expected to take on a predator - but the protection test in the HGH trial is supposed to simulate the dog protecting the flock from a person. Immediately after you finish and close the pen, you leash your dog and a helper comes up to agitate the dog. 

I did have an incident once, maybe a year ago, where Kessy did show that she would protect me while tending. It's kind of a long story - but the farm is pretty far back from the main road so it's very secluded. I was alone with the flock while the trainer was on the other end of the farm doing chores - which is a common setup for us since Kessy is trustworthy in the graze.
I was tending the sheep, and I noticed a man drive up and park nearby, and he got out of his car and walked over to me. That had never happened before and it made me a little nervous. He came over to me and Kessy ran up and sat right in front of him, she was VERY stiff and was watching him like a hawk. She didn't bark or growl, but I knew that if he made one wrong move she would have gone after him. I tried to send her along the border to keep patrolling - but she didn't want to leave him. And she is a dog who's totally stable and social around people - but maybe she could sense that I was nervous or that something was off, who knows. The guy explained that he was a "security" guy for the property owner (the farm is leased), and he patrols the various properties that the owner has. He eventually left without incident, and it wasn't a situation I've run into again, but I definitely feel safe with Kessy. I always wondered if maybe she's so focused on the sheep that she wouldn't notice a threat - but she's always watching! 

If a bear or coyotes did approach/attack, I don't think I'd want Kessy to protect the flock, although I don't doubt that she would. But I wouldn't want to risk her being hurt or killed. And I think our trainer would feel the same way - he'd probably just go get his shotgun  But in the "old" days I think that the situation probably would have been different.


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## anjum (Oct 29, 2011)

Thank you for sharing that!


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## krylos (Oct 19, 2006)

I haven't had time to read through this whole thread yet, just wanted to say thank you for posting the videos and the very good details on everything! I'm going to read through the whole thing as I have time.

I've been taking my dog Lana (Echo in my signature line) herding for a couple years now... not real regularly, more as a stress reliever from SchH training. She loves it and shows good instincts, but I don't have an HGH style trainer here. The place we go has up to around 50 sheep depending on the time of year. The sheep's owner only lives about 15 minutes from me which is a blessing, but doesn't own enough property to set up an HGH course for us. We could probably just barely shoehorn one in, but then again she doesn't have enough sheep. Catch 22. Anyway, this lady breeds and trains Bearded Collies, so a different style of herding. We passed our instinct test with flying colors. The trainer said she could take Lana out that weekend, without training, and put a basic title on her. I just don't know what I'm doing training-wise and your videos help a lot!

I've put 9 SchH3's on my "little girl" and I think this year I might put a little more focus on herding if I have the chance. I love being out there in nature with her and seeing her do what she was intended for. It blows my mind how much instinct remains in these dogs, even after all these years!

Thanks again for the videos!


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

Thanks Krylos, I am very happy to hear that this thread is useful!! I don't know if it'd be possible but if you could set up a mini-HGH course up there on the smaller flock, you *might* be able go to an HGH club to trial. There is someone in CT that did that at our first trial, along with one of her students. They did come out to practice a few times, ahead of time, but the dogs were able to make it through the trial without issues from the flock size. They weren't perfect runs but both got their HGH's.


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

phgsd said:


> Thanks Krylos, I am very happy to hear that this thread is useful!! I don't know if it'd be possible but if you could set up a mini-HGH course up there on the smaller flock, you *might* be able go to an HGH club to trial. There is someone in CT that did that at our first trial, along with one of her students. They did come out to practice a few times, ahead of time, but the dogs were able to make it through the trial without issues from the flock size. They weren't perfect runs but both got their HGH's.


Great thread, I certainly won't be titling my rescue gsd but I do plan to start my own small sheep operation and would love to have her working with me. This thread has been great to see.

I'd like to see more about how you first introduced your dog to the stock, seems like a very important part.


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

In the first video you can see her first exposure to the sheep. Our first lessons were similar, allowing her to run along the netting. 
Different dogs may need different approaches - Kessy is very high drive and super confident, and had a strong attraction to the sheep, so we did not really need to build her drive. For her it was about teaching her to run the border and teaching her control. With other dogs (and young dogs) you may need to build up their drive and confidence and not introduce any corrections or control for a while, and they may need encouragement, until they are more confident.


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

phgsd said:


> In the first video you can see her first exposure to the sheep. Our first lessons were similar, allowing her to run along the netting.
> Different dogs may need different approaches - Kessy is very high drive and super confident, and had a strong attraction to the sheep, so we did not really need to build her drive. For her it was about teaching her to run the border and teaching her control. With other dogs (and young dogs) you may need to build up their drive and confidence and not introduce any corrections or control for a while, and they may need encouragement, until they are more confident.


I won't need to build Hope's drive, it's more like I need to keep her from going too far and getting teeth on them. I'm sure if she encountered them on her own she would likely end up a sheep killer. I'm more concerned with how to keep her drive in check and teach her self control and not to bite them.

I don't know if I will be able to find help starting her off, I'll get a try at it and if it doesn't work out she'll just end up fenced away from them with no access. 

Right now I'm working her up for more control with other prey like squirrels and deer other critters, and she pretty much goes into hyperdrive when she sees any livestock even when just seeing them in a pasture from my SUV's window so I have not allowed any close exposure yet, at least until I can get a handle on her and have her responding reliably to commands when there's a deer in sight and that switch turns on in her head.

I know she has a strong instinct, the determining factor is going to be on my end and how I handle her early exposure.


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## Questforfire (Apr 18, 2012)

Absolutely wonderful videos and it is a real help to see the training from the start. I have trained border collies to herd sheep in the past with the help of my husband, who is a professional shepherd and therefore the experienced and skilled one  

I haven't watched all of Kessy's videos yet, but will do over the next day or two. It is fascinating stuff - and great to see a GSD herding sheep as it was originally meant to. 

I have just started to train my young (17 month old) working line GSD on sheep, but ours are wild, horned sheep and so I am not sure I will ever achieve the same level as Kessy and yourself.


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

Thank you 
That would be another good discussion - breed/temperament of the sheep. I know dorpers are the most popular breed in the US for tending since they are very calm and have a strong flocking instinct. Offhand, I'm not sure what breed they use in Germany...I'd have to look into that.
I'd imagine it would be really tough with flighty sheep!


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