# Why is police dog training trying to be kept secretive?



## GSD_man

I was always wondering ... 

Unless you are K9 police officer or possibly press, you are not allowed to observe a police dog training sessions. I already tried. At least that's how it is here in the state of NY. Why is this? Are the cops scared that criminals are going to pick up on their "secret" training strategies or random john doe's are going to produce cop dogs which go out and bite the public. Does police dog training really have to be kept a secret? How come retired K9 cops are allowed to pursue a career in dog training and share their "secrets" with the public. 

What am I overlooking here. Your thoughts are appreciated.


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## onyx'girl

The criminals will find out about the favored rewards and then carry them...tugs, balls, treats.

JK

I would have loved to be a K9 LEO handler, wish I wasn't so old now.


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## selzer

I don't know, 

Maybe liability

Maybe they do not want just anyone to know the strengths and weaknesses of individual dogs

Maybe they do not want people to see how dogs are trained to track or trail so that people could work on ways to avoid being tracked.

Maybe the individuals have enough to be thinking about and doing that they do not want to be critiqued by the public while doing it. 

maybe after training with weed, they all get together at the end of class and have a little party???


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## Wolfiesmom

I know how they train K9's and it's not pretty. It's why the dogs are wired and hyper, and they don't live very long.


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## selzer

Hang on, there are as many ways to train police dogs as there are police departments. Many, many departments train their own dogs. I think they, for the most part, choose dogs that are high energy and high drive. 

Some of them are probably terribly hard on the dogs, to the point of being abusive.

I think that the rest are basically trying to prove those dogs inside and out. It is imperitive that police dogs are under control and perform on command and at the same time stay alert and protect. The rest of us can get away with a 78 or 95% performance. Police dogs have to be on the top of their game all the time. 

I would expect that would mean rigorous training, with very little room to move either way. 

The dog that came to our class for a demo was nine years and still active. I think that ensuring that those dogs are 100% all the time, might make them live longer than they might otherwise.


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## Wolfiesmom

I'm sure there are many ways, but I know for a fact that the big departments around here use the same methods, and it is very harsh. I come from a law enforcement family and know several K9 officers.


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## liv

The Royal Canadian Mounted Police (our federal police service) has there training facility about 40 minutes from where I love and they do training and skills demonstrations every week during the summer. You can see their training grounds from the highway, so I don't think they're super secretive about their training. From what I have heard (my breeder knows many of the trainers there) they run a good program and turn out really good police dogs. From what I understand, their dogs are the first response SAR dogs for the entire country, others get a call if needed. My brothers, however, are with our local police dept and their dogs are not only terrible at actual police work - they sound insane. It sounds like the dogs are just as likely to bite their handlers as a suspect (and then only if they can see the suspect because they can't track! They sound exactly like the dogs wolfiesmom is describing, and these are not dogs I would ever want to encounter.


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## Castlemaid

Wolfiesmom said:


> I know how they train K9's and it's not pretty. It's why the dogs are wired and hyper, and they don't live very long.


Agree with Selzer, you can't make a blanket statement like this and categorize trainers and dogs as all the same. 

I watch RCMP dog handlers work their dogs on a weekly basis - some have joined our Schutzhund club and work with our main helper in maintaining and improving the patrol dogs' tracking and fight skills. 

They focus on developing a strong relationship with their dogs as their life depends on it. One member brings his young son with him, and we all stand around and watch and cheer on the dog when he brings down the bad guy in training. 

As to your question about why? I don't know about the police in your area and their reasoning - I doubt that there is some deep nasty, unspeakable secret going on behind closed doors though - unless one is looking for yet another conspiracy theory.


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## GSD_man

Wolfiesmom said:


> I know how they train K9's and it's not pretty. It's why the dogs are wired and hyper, and they don't live very long.


I see what you are saying. Good point actually. I haven't thought of it like that. I think somewhere along the lines you are saying that some pro animal activists would have some serious problems with the training practices.


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## GSD_man

selzer said:


> maybe after training with weed, they all get together at the end of class and have a little party???


sons a bitches ...they want it all for themselves


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## bmasplund

I work in LE and I will tell you that some of the training is not conventional is still the old way of choking out your dog for disipline issues. Honestly if departments are still using this tactic for training which most are, would you want the public seeing you choke out5 your dog. NO. I remember a instence when a k9 dog bite the handler at a demonstration and they handler couldnt do anything because the public was there. I dont thinks its keeping secrets on training techniques as much as how harsh it can be.


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## selzer

I like my weed theory better.


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## GSD_man

When I dug up a local K9 officer on Facebook and asked him about the training, public observation blabla, he responded that the public is not allowed for "OBVIOUS REASONS"
I wonder what he meant with "obvious reasons", silly me, I should have asked.


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## Wolfiesmom

Castlemaid said:


> Agree with Selzer, you can't make a blanket statement like this and categorize trainers and dogs as all the same.
> 
> I watch RCMP dog handlers work their dogs on a weekly basis - some have joined our Schutzhund club and work with our main helper in maintaining and improving the patrol dogs' tracking and fight skills.
> 
> They focus on developing a strong relationship with their dogs as their life depends on it. One member brings his young son with him, and we all stand around and watch and cheer on the dog when he brings down the bad guy in training.
> 
> As to your question about why? I don't know about the police in your area and their reasoning - I doubt that there is some deep nasty, unspeakable secret going on behind closed doors though - unless one is looking for yet another conspiracy theory.


Did you ever think they do this for show? It's called public relations.Anyhow, I am just speaking of the initial training that they do. Once the dog is trained they do the normal practice that everyone else does. There is no need for any more of the type of correction that is used in the initial training because the dogs get the picture very quickly. 

I knew a guy that used to give his police dog, let's just say a certain pleasure as a reward for catching a criminal. He was the best dog in the area.


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## GSD_man

onyx'girl said:


> The criminals will find out about the favored rewards and then carry them...tugs, balls, treats.


I am starting to think, you won't see any rewards like that ....


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## Wolfiesmom

bmasplund said:


> I work in LE and I will tell you that some of the training is not conventional is still the old way of choking out your dog for disipline issues. Honestly if departments are still using this tactic for training which most are, would you want the public seeing you choke out5 your dog. NO. I remember a instence when a k9 dog bite the handler at a demonstration and they handler couldnt do anything because the public was there. I dont thinks its keeping secrets on training techniques as much as how harsh it can be.


This is what I am talking about. They pick the dog up by it's throat and choke it to the point of it almost losing consciousness when it needs a correction. Yes, they still do it.


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## DharmasMom

From what I have heard and seen the training of these dogs can be quite brutal. I know a guy at the dog park that ended up with a k9 the didn't make it through training. He said when he got the dog it had no fur on its neck where it had been choked repeatedly with a choke chain. 

I also saw how the military handlers treat the dogs. In fact the handler I was working with went so far as to choke the #%$& out of my dog with a choke collar he fashioned from her leash. His reasoning for doing it- it was to make her submit and be obedient.


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## Castlemaid

Wolfiesmom said:


> Did you ever think they do this for show? It's called public relations.


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl: Oh Wolfiesmom, THANK YOU For the laugh!!! 

That would be like saying that I train with treats and balls for show, because it is well known that Schutzhund people are brutal to their dogs. 

Anyways, the RCMP have some of the best-trained police dogs in the world, but I'm sure it might just be one or two dog that they bring out for the public, and keep the rest hidden, LOL! 

I have no doubt that there are some LA people out there who are idiots and don't know the first thing about dogs and resort to what others here are talking about.


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## GSD_man

DharmasMom said:


> I also saw how the military handlers treat the dogs. In fact the handler I was working with went so far as to choke the #%$& out of my dog with a choke collar he fashioned from her leash. His reasoning for doing it- it was to make her submit and be obedient.



sad ...that is soo 60's, Koehler method type training ... Are these methods really still necessary to train a good police or military dog?


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## selzer

I think that it is nice to think about police dogs, especially GSDs, the way we think about our pets. But their handlers have to have a special sort of mindset. They HAVE to be able to put that dog in danger -- front of the line type thing in situations, and KNOW that even with bullets flying and whatever chaos that dog will do what he is trained to do.

They have to be aware that the idiots out there might try to sabotage or kill their dog, and be ready to flush the dog if they do. but they also have to go into this whole thing knowing the dog can drop out or be killed at any time. 

I think that might make you a little more callous about the whole thing. 

And also, lots of cops are x-military. Military wants to get you home alive, not worried so much about how bad you feel in training, they want you to know how to do your job when the shtuff is hitting the fan. And I can see them treating dogs with a similar mentality.

But I would not suggest that all of them are the same. 

One fellow was telling me that the dog is not allowed any toys. He has one toy, and that toy he can play with ONLY when he does something really good. They do this starting from a puppy. Another told me her son was training a police dog, and the dog was chewing holes in the walls and they cannot correct it for this, because they might need for the dog to do just that down the line. And another guy told my dad that they switch handlers when they are training police dogs every month or so, so the dog does not get so attached to just one handler.

I think that there are different methods, and different levels of bonding with specific officers, depending on what the dogs are used for and how they are trained and how they are kept.


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## Wolfiesmom

Castlemaid said:


> :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl: Oh Wolfiesmom, THANK YOU For the laugh!!!
> 
> That would be like saying that I train with treats and balls for show, because it is well known that Schutzhund people are brutal to their dogs.
> 
> Anyways, the RCMP have some of the best-trained police dogs in the world, but I'm sure it might just be one or two dog that they bring out for the public, and keep the rest hidden, LOL!
> 
> I have no doubt that there are some LA people out there who are idiots and don't know the first thing about dogs and resort to what others here are talking about.


Hahaha! I'm glad I was able to make you laugh! Perhaps I worded this wrong. Here in the states at least in my area they do bring the dogs to clubs etc to do demonstrations. Only a few do them. The rest of the guys who like to train on their own time in public would never choke their dog in front of the public. It is too upsetting.


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## selzer

Our k9 units are funded by donations. If they see cops choking or kicking dogs, what will happen to their donations?


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## DharmasMom

I know a k9 officer. He continuously says his dog is NOT a pet and is not treated as such. The dog NEVER comes in the house. He stays outside in a kennel when not at work and he never gets treats or plays games. The officer says that when the dog catches a criminal his reward is he can bite the person and then he gets a hot dog (I don't think he was getting when he told me this either).


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## liv

From what my brothers have said, the K-9 officers in their dept do choke out their dogs on a regular basis, as well as other archaic forms of discipline, it makes me sick when the talk about the dogs. Plus it turns out really crappy dogs who are indiscriminately aggressive but can't do anything else - apparently the only thing they're good for is if they have a line of sight on the suspect and he's running and the police all freeze. However, I do enjoy watching the RCMP dogs work - any I have seen have done a great job and both them and the handler look like they're having a good time doing it. The difference between the two is night and day!


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## Castlemaid

Wolfiesmom, these RCMP officer aren't coming to our club for public demonstrations. They come on their own time to improve their own handling and training skills. They come on weekday nights and stand in the rain and get soaked with the rest of us while they wait their turn on the field with the helper while the helper works our club dogs. There is no "public" there, only us club members. 

Acutally, the helpers/trainers at OUR club are the ones who got to police training events to put on dog-handling seminars. Our main helper is away doing a quarry course for the RCMP. (teaching people how to run and hide and act like a bad guy for the dogs to find and bring down). 

It just so happens that from my office window, I overlook some grassy fields that we, our club, use for tracking a lot - and I can see the weekly training sessions the RCMP have with their dogs out there - tracking, learning to handle a young dog, having some poor sap dress up in a bite suit and told to start running. Very entertaining, yes! But this is real training, not a demonstration.


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## bmasplund

One thing to remember is that Police dogs are in fact not pets. They have a job and departments pay big money for them. Once everything is said and done (Purchase, train and send dog/handler to training courses) it can cost well around $20,000 so this being said it is a very big investment for departments. 

As for the departments where I live th K9's stay with ONE handler their whole career and usually once the are retired the handlers purchase the dog for $1 and they live the rest of their lives with the handlers. 

Most of the retired k9's are very good dogs once retired. Great with kids, quiet and calm.


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## TitonsDad

My/Titon's trainer IS the trainer for Fort Carson Army Base, Peterson Air Force Base, El Paso County and CSPD K9 units. We can watch if we wanted to but I choose to leave them to their training out of respect for what they do. There is no secret to what a police K9 dog can do that our dogs can't do with training. 

But I will say this though, what they do to train the drug dogs can make you cringe. You thought ball drive was crazy. Try drugs...


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## ChristenHolden

My DH asked a cop the next town over about tempermrent testing for ShcH. And he said to tie my dog down to a table and poke her with a stick till she comes after me. And if she didn't she wasent any good and to git rid of her and find another dog  he said he had a booklet with all kinds of tests or training. We could barrow anytime. I'm tempted to then burn it so it can never be used again :angryfire :


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## PDXDeutschhund

LEO training is like that. I know that most tactical teams don't like the idea of their training becoming public (close quarters combat/MOUT), but there's really nothing unique or new about it. I guess I can understand why they'd be concerned that bad guys would know their SOP, but really the most important aspect of a breach is surprise and violence of action. I'd guess that K9 training is really no different. They just don't want the public familiar with their SOP.


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## Hit Factor

I used to be a Police Sergeant and I still work in this field, but not as a Police Officer. We never, ever, disclose our security vulnerabilities (crime if we do).

When asked to observe training, generally it's not going to be allowed because they don't know the spectator or have the priority or need to learn about the spectator (background investigation). Liability is another reason they won't allow spectators. If you are not there you can't get hurt by whatever happens.

If your neighbor is a K-9 Officer or you have some kind of relationship they will likely tell you a lot about the training.


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## DFrost

Wolfiesmom said:


> I know how they train K9's and it's not pretty. It's why the dogs are wired and hyper, and they don't live very long.


Being a police trainer and K9 Unit manager, it would be easy to take offense to such ignorance. I don't but would like to know exactly where you get your information. I have a 50 dog unit. The current average age of my "fleet" is 6. I just retired a bomb dog that was 13. At 11 he placed third in the nation in a national competition. He was actually tied for second. The tie breaker was the actual time it took the dog to complete the search. He was beaten by a 3 year old malanois by 12 seconds. I've had many dogs work into their 10th and 11th year.

Of course police trainers select dogs that are high drive, high energy. While there has been, on occasion, trainers that go overboard, regardless of what people think, they are rare and usually dealt with. Not to sound melodramatic, the dog is relied on and must be able to perform. What we do is not sport, it's not competition. We don't work with dogs as a hobby or just for the fun of it. While indeed, there is a special bond between a police officer and their dog, they still have the mind set to send the dog into a situation that could well cause serious injury or death. Yes, there may well be some aversive training when training police dogs. I think most would be surprised however, well over 90% of all police dog training is using nothing but positive reinforcement. 

I've fought this battle my entire career of seeing police trainers maligned with the "yank and crank" philosophy. Generally those tales are told by the person that knew a person who once talked to the mechanic that was third cousin to a police canine officer. Then it's reinforced by some bonehead police trainer doing something profoundly stupid. 

More to the thread. With few exceptions ie, some tactical moves, explosives used and search techniques, there is very little secretive about police canine training. I'm a state agency. People are permitted to attend, to view, our training. There isn't any double naught spy activities going on, unless it's double naught spy activities. That would be work though, not training. Dog training is not rocket science. There isn't any smoke and mirrors. The basic principles pretty much apply across the board. Response, reward = response. No different than teaching a dog to go through weave poles, retrieve a down bird, pursue and hold a suspect. It's all pretty much the same.

DFrost


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## Chris Wild

I have also trained with many K9 officers over the years, both participating in their actual K9 training and with them visiting SchH clubs (which was done for *training* not some PR scam) and some of the claims made in this thread really have my mind boggled at where people get these ideas. Sure, there may be a few cases of that sort of thing here and there, but it is far from common, much less the norm.

Thank goodness David saw this thread and responded with a dose of reality. And good posts by Lucia too based on some actual first hand experience. 

Given the ignorance, ridiculous theories and negative propaganda being passed around in this thread as "fact" I really DO think it obvious why K9 departments aren't inviting every Tom, **** and Harry out to watch their training.


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## Rerun

uh...you can't watch police training in general around here, K9 or otherwise.

Wolfiesmom - there are a lot of ways to train dogs, many that you likely wouldn't agree with. Doesn't make it right or wrong, just makes it different. The dogs here certainly aren't abused, and they definitely don't lead shorter lives. They are retired and most here live our their lives in the homes of their handlers.


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## Wolfiesmom

I will tell you where I got my info. I can see that different countries and different states employ different training methods. I am only saying what I have encountered, or been told in my area. I come from a law enforcement family. My father, 4 of my uncles, and my hubby are all police officers or retired police officers. We have a lot of family friends and one of my uncles that are or were K9 officers. The breeder where I got my dog, Chief, was an active K9 officer, as well as breeding dogs for show, one of his dogs won top dog in the USA many years ago. He also bred dogs for pets, and bred dogs for the police dept. My hubby and the breeder ,whom I mentioned but passed away in an accident, both work for a dept of 2500 officers. My dad and uncles all worked for smaller departments. One of my uncles worked K9 for the military. My grandfather breeds tracking hounds. This is where I get my information from. Just to let everyone know that I am not just making things up as I go along, or passing something along from my mechanics' cousin's friends mother in law who knows a K9 officer. Dfrost, I am glad to hear that in your dept the dogs are treated and trained well. I am not making a blanket statement of all dog units, just what I have learned and seen here over the years.


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## Rerun

It must be a very, very small dept if they are getting their dogs as puppies from a private breeder.

That could possibly explain where they get their ideas on training. However, you say several times "people in your family" and etc, but in reality how many direct family members do you talk to on a regular basis that are actual K9 handlers. Either way, one family who likely passes down methods to one another isn't an accurate picture of how K9's in this country are trained.


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## Wolfiesmom

Rerun said:


> uh...you can't watch police training in general around here, K9 or otherwise.
> 
> Wolfiesmom - there are a lot of ways to train dogs, many that you likely wouldn't agree with. Doesn't make it right or wrong, just makes it different. The dogs here certainly aren't abused, and they definitely don't lead shorter lives. They are retired and most here live our their lives in the homes of their handlers.


I didn't say anything was right or wrong. I was just saying that the average citizen, and especially the animal rights groups would find the choke method of training repulsive and abusive. If they open that part of the training up the the public, there would be an outcry from some of these groups. This is certainly not the only reason for not showing the training methods, but part of it. The K9 dogs that I have known , the longest lived one was 10. Your average GSD pet has a life expectancy of 12 to 14 years. These dogs are under high stress on the job, just like their human counterparts. Human officers suffer illnesses and many die younger due what the amount of job stress does to the body.


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## Jax08

Wolfiesmom said:


> The K9 dogs that I have known , the longest lived one was 10. Your average GSD pet has a life expectancy of 12 to 14 years. These dogs are under high stress on the job, just like their human counterparts. Human officers suffer illnesses and many die younger due what the amount of job stress does to the body.


Your original post made it sound as if these dogs were dying way younger than 10 due to abuse by the handlers. I think that might be what has people up in at your post.


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## Wolfiesmom

Rerun said:


> It must be a very, very small dept if they are getting their dogs as puppies from a private breeder.
> 
> That could possibly explain where they get their ideas on training. However, you say several times "people in your family" and etc, but in reality how many direct family members do you talk to on a regular basis that are actual K9 handlers. Either way, one family who likely passes down methods to one another isn't an accurate picture of how K9's in this country are trained.


I didn't say that they are getting the dogs as pups. I said I know a K9 officer that was also a breeder, that bred dogs that police depts used. This breeder has since passed away. Idk if you consider a dept of 2500 officers small or not.


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## Wolfiesmom

Jax08 said:


> Your original post made it sound as if these dogs were dying way younger than 10 due to abuse by the handlers. I think that might be what has people up in at your post.


Yeah I probably worded it wrong


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## Rerun

Unless he is breeding, raising, and putting the preliminary training on the dogs it's hard to believe the dept is buying dogs from him. That is very rare. Most buy green dogs; puppies are a crapshoot and they don''t have the time and money or inclination to invest in a bunch of pups that may not make it.

There are a lot of breeders that say they sell dogs as K9's and for the most part, they are lying.


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## Wolfiesmom

Rerun said:


> Unless he is breeding, raising, and putting the preliminary training on the dogs it's hard to believe the dept is buying dogs from him. That is very rare. Most buy green dogs; puppies are a crapshoot and they don''t have the time and money or inclination to invest in a bunch of pups that may not make it.
> 
> There are a lot of breeders that say they sell dogs as K9's and for the most part, they are lying.


I agree, but he was a K9 officer, a Major, in said dept. He sold these dogs when they were older, and I don't know the word for it, but they were trained somewhat. Is that what you are calling a green dog? Anyways in 1990, he was getting $10,000 for each dog that the dept bought from him. This is all I know about how his dogs got to be K9's. I can't call him and ask him anymore because he was killed in an accident a couple years ago.


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## Rerun

Wolfiesmom said:


> I agree, but he was a K9 officer, a Major, in said dept. He sold these dogs when they were older, and I don't know the word for it, but they were trained somewhat. Is that what you are calling a green dog? Anyways in 1990, he was getting $10,000 for each dog that the dept bought from him. This is all I know about how his dogs got to be K9's. I can't call him and ask him anymore because he was killed in an accident a couple years ago.


 Yes, that's what a dog with some training is called - green.


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## Wolfiesmom

Wolfiesmom said:


> I agree, but he was a K9 officer, a Major, in said dept. He sold these dogs when they were older, and I don't know the word for it, but they were trained somewhat. Is that what you are calling a green dog? Anyways in 1990, he was getting $10,000 for each dog that the dept bought from him. This is all I know about how his dogs got to be K9's. I can't call him and ask him anymore because he was killed in an accident a couple years ago.


Checked that rank, he was a Captain.


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## Lilie

I have never seen training for Police Dogs. I can't comment on if they are trained using brutal tactics or not. However, the trainer I use trains police dogs. She also boards them when their handlers are not on shift. 

She has never suggested that any of us (students) ever use any type of hanging or choking of our dogs. She even suggests the use of the halti. I've only seen her actually get physical with a dog once and that was with a 2 year old Pit that had many issues - the dog attacked her. She requested the handler take private lessons. 

We questioned her regarding housing the Police Dogs when they are not on 'Duty'. She said that when the dogs come off duty, she lets the run in a kennel for 1 hour. She feeds them and then crates them for the night. She said that it is best for the dog to have a scheduled time to be 'off'. If the officer took the dog home, the dog is still on duty. It creates too much stress in the dog's life to be on duty 24/7.


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## pac liter

I just wanted to point something out about the method of choking. 

Unless they are totally insane, I am guessing theses trainers use this method only when dog goes into defensive/fight drive when it should be calm. Certain situations require that a dog maintain a calm state. Especially when we are talking working dogs and dogs in class. 

Since we are discussing protection I am sure we are dealing with a lot of aggresive, dominant dogs, with strong drive. 

These dogs can be very challenging to get out of drive so options are limited and by no means is clicking a universal solution. 

You would be crazy to put your had near the mouths of certain dogs when they go into drive. Sometimes a food treat is not a viable option. In all fairness, the practice of "choking your dog" should not be demonized when used as a last resort for very aggressive dogs. 

I attend begginners obnce class and my trainer has a protection background. A lot of very dangerous aggressive dogs are referred to this guy. I have seen many dogs attack their owners during class. People are very dedicated and serious. I saw a guy finish a class after he had been bitten and obviously needed stitches on his hand. 

We use treats but we are taught to use corrections when the chit hits the fan and treats are no longer an option. One of the assistants did mention the hanging technique to me when I described certain aggression issues my dog has. I don't think she was wrong for doing so. I have never seen a dog hung in class but I have wittnessed some serious correction and they were effective. 

I think everybody in class cares for and loves their dogs. Nobody enjoys giving a forceful correction but they also don't want their dogs put to sleep.


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## DFrost

Wolfiesmom said:


> I didn't say anything was right or wrong. I was just saying that the average citizen, and especially the animal rights groups would find the choke method of training repulsive and abusive. .


 
Admittedly I don't know it all about police K9. I will say, no modesty intended, I do know quite a bit. I would ask for you help though in defining exactly what the "choke method" of training is. It doesn't sound at all like it would be fun for either the handler or dog. At any rate, probably few groups are more under the watchful eye of that fine guardian-of-animals (tongue firmly implanted in cheek) PETA. In addition to their watchful eye is the press. In addition to that is; we are a tax supported agency, meaning all someone has to do is request to attend trainind and, in most cases that request will be honored. No, they can't train with us. There are liability issues. The only thing some people like to see more than a police canine in trouble is one being sued for accidental bite etc. But that's another story altogether. 

Just a couple of highlights. Most police departments buy adult dogs. Reason - puppies are a crap shoot. You buy a puppy, spend 18 month or preferrably 2 years raising it and then it doesn't work out. You can test an adult both for the drives you need and the physical health of the dog. 

People talk about how much they think police dogs are abused. I won't talk about the 35 year old macho male cop with tears running down his cheek as they bury his partner, instead let's just look at common sense. I want this dog to trust me. I need to trust him. Do you think I"m really going to gain that trust by beating him, choking him, kicking him treating him like crap and the say, ok all is well I need you to work now. Yeah, I know there was a couple of videos of police trainers/officers abusing their dogs. Yes, it looked bad. Very few condsidered the hundreds of us out there ever day that were as repulsed as the non-law enforcement. Those programs usually don't last. Using some folks reasoning, no priest should ever be alone with a boy, dentists should never be allowed to sedate a woman before performing a dental procedure - - - well you get my drift. We have those in any profession that don't do the profession any justice. I guess when someone tells me they heard or they have seen A dog, then proceeds to draw conclusions and make inferences that malighn an entire profession, well, I just think they are jumping the gun and perhaps should become a little more familiar with their subject.

DFrost


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## DFrost

Rerun said:


> Yes, that's what a dog with some training is called - green.


 
A "green" dog is a dog with no training. Generally, the next level would be a dog with "some" training. Some training generally means the basics, a little obediance, what is referred to as "bite tested", meaning the dog will hit a sleeve. These dogs are often referred to as "partially trained" or "started" dogs. Pretrained, which one would think means fully trained are also available. These dogs still need some work. That work is completed with the dog's new handler during a class of anywhere from 2 to 6 weeks in duration. In the 90's and in fact, up through the horrible events of 9/11, the average price for a green GSD/Mal/Dutchie etc was around 1,200. Many green dogs were available for 800 to 1,000. After 9/11 the price of a suitable purpose GSD/Mal/Dutchie shot up unbelieveably. Today, for a good prospect, usually imported as it's difficult to find the quality of dog needed with the U. S. the price is 6 to 8 thousand. I'm not aware of any department paying 10,000 or more in the 90's for a dog. 

Another misconception is the type of dog. High drive, yes. All this talk of "dominance" though is generally breeder talk and not so much the talk of police trainers. The handler has the opposable thumbs. The dog knows who feeds it, waters it, cleans it's kennel and controls it during training. If there is a dog that is aggressive to it's handler it is usually because the dog either doesn't quite have the nerve it should have or it's in conflict because of training. Basically it just doesn't understand what the handler is trying to convey. At any rate, it's more than just because the dog is dominant. Those dogs selected for police work generally do not make good pets. Regardless of what you hear about the dog living with the family, which many do, they are not "pet quality" dogs.

DFrost


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## novarobin

Wolfiesmom said:


> I will tell you where I got my info. I can see that different countries and different states employ different training methods. I am only saying what I have encountered, or been told in my area. I come from a law enforcement family... I am not making a blanket statement of all dog units, just what I have learned and seen here over the years.


Your first statement was this 


Wolfiesmom said:


> I know how they train K9's and it's not pretty. It's why the dogs are wired and hyper, and they don't live very long.



Thats pretty blanket. You did not specify "where I live, this is my experience". 

I do agree there are some terrible K9 programs out there. Some of these people have no idea how to train, and the dogs should never be on the street, but to put all of them in the same category is wrong. 

Castlemaid and the others who have mentioned the RCMP are exactly right. It is NOT for show, it is how they trained. They have one of the most respected programs around, and their training is sought after across the country and the world. If you knew me, you would know that I don't compliment the RCMP lightly, it down right kills me. But I do give credit where credit is due. I have seen ALL stages of their training, their demonstrations are not public relations. Pretty much any department in Canada bases their training off the RCMP. 

As for the original question, I don't know. Here, you can find the unit training every Wednesday behind the main station, out at the airport and in random neighborhoods. We have had visitors observe, videotape and do regular demostrations. No hiding, no secrecy.


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## DFrost

novarobin said:


> As for the original question, I don't know. Here, you can find the unit training every Wednesday behind the main station, out at the airport and in random neighborhoods. We have had visitors observe, videotape and do regular demostrations. No hiding, no secrecy.


 
You've made a very good point. I forgot about the literally thousands of "YouTube" videos that are available. They show police training and actual deployments. There are as many as anyone wants to view. The problem is, the facts won't fit the beliefs so why bother. It's more fun to trash what they don't know about.

DFrost


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## onyx'girl

novarobin said:


> As for the original question, I don't know. Here, you can find the unit training every Wednesday behind the main station, out at the airport and in random neighborhoods. We have had visitors observe, videotape and do regular demostrations. No hiding, no secrecy.


Our SchH group trains at a fire/police station in a field behind the station. It is very visible to traffic and there are trains going by constantly(backing up the traffic).
We put on quite a show for the people waiting. I bet they think it is the police K9's training, people will come up to watch(apartments nearby as well). 
There are a couple of LEO's who train w/ us now and then, but not doing anything more than having fun doing SchH.


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## novarobin

novarobin said:


> We have had visitors observe, videotape and do regular demostrations. No hiding, no secrecy.


 
Just to clarify the WE. I come out as a quarry, I am not a handler. Just didn't want to mislead.


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## Wolfiesmom

Canine Training Articles :: United States Police Canine Association
There are some interesting articles here on police dog training. There is an interesting article on negative punishment and also one on doing public demos


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## DFrost

Wolfiesmom said:


> Canine Training Articles :: United States Police Canine Association
> There are some interesting articles here on police dog training. There is an interesting article on negative punishment and also one on doing public demos


some very interesting articles. Some, trainers will agree with, some, trainers disagree with. One thing to point out, it's not secret. People are able to gain access and read them, just as the OP did. The discussion about negative punishment, positive punishment etc means exactly that. It's a discussion. Anyone that trains dogs uses negative and positive punishment as well as positive reinforcement. It's kind of the basics of operant conditioning. Which, of course, is pretty much what all trainers do regardless of what they are training. Sure, there are new words to describe the funcitons. You can't sell books and go on the lecture tour using the same old terminology. It's kind of like the "clicker" phase. We were using in the the late 60's to train mine, tunnel and trip wire dogs. Nothing new, just new words to it. By all means, read the police articles pointed out. You'll find some very professional trainers and you'll see that there really aren't all that many secrets. 

DFrost


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## ladylaw203

I have been a police k9 handler and trainer for over 20 years as well as a certifying official for the largest police k9 organization in the nation. Although there are those who use poor methods as do horse trainers etc,police k9 training methods are not cruel. A large group of us use motivational training methods. So, NO, that is not why we do not allow spectators except at demos. You will not watch our SWAT team training either. We never know who is watching and any screwup can be fodder for some defense attorney. Now we have phone video and everything else so it is closed.


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## My GSD

selzer said:


> maybe after training with weed, they all get together at the end of class and have a little party???


You just made me crack up in the middle of class!!!


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## DFrost

My GSD said:


> You just made me crack up in the middle of class!!!


 
Some is always in charge of snacks.

DFrost


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## selzer

My GSD said:


> You just made me crack up in the middle of class!!!


Thanks, glad someone chuckled. Knew the topic was going to get a bit heavy. 

I do not think anyone is lying or 100% wrong on this thread. I think there is some bad training going on. BUT, most police dogs have to be certified every year. Seriously abusive training will most likely put out dogs that are inconsistant or unstable. Programs that have a higher than average failure rate would probably undergo serious scrutiny, and Probably wouldn't last very long.


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## onyx'girl

When I was trying to get a grip on Onyx's fear aggression I consulted two retired LEO K9 trainers(one was a friend of my DH's best friend). 
Both suggested choking her off to get her to submit or use an e-collar and stim her when she acted aggressively. .

I talked with each one extensively and one guy I still keep in contact with.
They were trainers in the 60's thru late 90's...I think training has come a long way since then and so does the one I still talk with. 
He has his bitesuit and other equipment stored in his polebarn/I keep asking him when he wants to donate it to our club! I'd like to see the old sleeves just out of curiosity.
I chose to go with Leslie McDevitts Control Unleashed methods to manage her instead of their suggestions.


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## kiwilrdg

> I know how they train K9's and it's not pretty. It's why the dogs are wired and hyper, and they don't live very long.


I would like to know how you know about police K-9 training. I have seen many training sessions as a civilian observer. My wife has worked as a civilian volunteer in the kennels. As a Sheriff's Deputy Sgt. I have worked with the dogs from 6 departments. I saw no real stressful training practices. The drive of the dogs does tend to get them rather worked up when they have their collars on. I have played with off duty dogs and officers' kids.

As for restricting observation of training, I would assume it is to avoid civil liability issues. I did lots of paperwork to be listed as a civilian volunteer. It might also be to keep the general public from knowing the language each dog is trained in and if there is an off command that they will take from anyone.

The dogs retire early because if there is a health issue they will work too hard and make it worse. I have seen officers with two retired dogs at home and one at the kennel (no room for a third kennel at home).


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## kiwilrdg

I am sorry if I sounded snarky in the above post. I live in an area where we have very good trainers and I am sure there are some that do not have programs that are not as gentle on the dogs.


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## Jessiewessie99

bmasplund said:


> *One thing to remember is that Police dogs are in fact not pets.* They have a job and departments pay big money for them. Once everything is said and done (Purchase, train and send dog/handler to training courses) it can cost well around $20,000 so this being said it is a very big investment for departments.
> 
> As for the departments where I live th K9's stay with ONE handler their whole career and usually once the are retired the handlers purchase the dog for $1 and they live the rest of their lives with the handlers.
> 
> Most of the retired k9's are very good dogs once retired. Great with kids, quiet and calm.


My friend has w k9 officers near her and there poilce dogs are their pets, and a person around the block from is a k9 officer and his dog is his pet.


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## Jessiewessie99

Oh for the weed thing, where do you guys think I get the stuff to make my "special" brownies?


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## Chris Wild

Jessiewessie99 said:


> My friend has w k9 officers near her and there poilce dogs are their pets, and a person around the block from is a k9 officer and his dog is his pet.


But they are still not pets. Not as "pet" is generally defined. Companions? Yes, some are. Living in the house? Yes, some do. But that doesn't make them pets in the general sense. And being a pet is very secondary. So much so it isn't even on the priority list.


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## DFrost

kiwilrdg said:


> The dogs retire early because if there is a health issue they will work too hard and make it worse. I have seen officers with two retired dogs at home and one at the kennel (no room for a third kennel at home).


 
I don't get this "retire early" line of thinking. What is early? Put it in perspective for me. We spend a lot of money buying and training dogs. I'm going to keep that dog working as long as he can phycially perform. If you research the GSD breed, the average life span, depending on who you chose to believe is anywhere from 9.5 to 14. Personally, I think 14 is more the exception than the average. none the less, it's not uncommon for a dog to be working into it's 10th year. 

As for being secretive; we must not be doing a good job keeping it secret. Seems there are a whole bunch of folks that know all about it. All one has to do is read this thread. by the way, my dogs are taught in English, no fancy words. Sit, down, stay, mean exactly what you would think. Get him means, ---- well, get him. The key is, the dog only listens to the handler, not the word used.

DFrost


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## novarobin

DFrost said:


> by the way, my dogs are taught in English, no fancy words. Sit, down, stay, mean exactly what you would think. Get him means, ---- well, get him. The key is, the dog only listens to the handler, not the word used.
> 
> DFrost


 
ROTFL. 
That always cracks me up. I frequent another dog forum and always hear the "police dogs are taught German so no one else can give commands" or hear of "secret" code words. 
Here, the dogs are also taught English. They use "take em".


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## DFrost

Oh yeah, all the secret words and codes, ha ha. We won't even talk about the secret handshake, ha ha

DFrost


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## ILGHAUS

Wow at the beginning of this thread I was thinking that I sure have missed a lot. Hanging dogs until they about passed out and I think it was suggested that the dogs are given drugs so they will search harder for them. Yikes .... now I know the secrets too. (Well not the secret handshake yet but maybe someday.)

So, the things that I heard and saw have all been PR. No wonder the budget is tight. Double training is involved. 

And to think one of our local drug detection dogs is so dumb that he thinks a good reward is a tennis ball - stupid dog if he held out he could get part of the find. And then there is the patrol dog that after running someone down and holding he later gets to play with his handler with a tug. Another stupid dog as he could demand to be able to go chew awhile on "the bad guy".


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## DFrost

ILGHAUS said:


> Wow at the beginning of this thread I was thinking that I sure have missed a lot. Hanging dogs until they about passed out and I think it was suggested that the dogs are given drugs so they will search harder for them..


One of the reasons I started participating in some canine forums were because people actually believed what you just joked about. I do admit, there are some trainers that embarrass us and use techniques that are cruel and unneccessary. I'll also point out, there are doctors, lawyers, investment brokers etc that also break the law and now follow policy. Not all breeders are puppy mills, not everyone is in the breeding business solely for the money. 

At any rate, trainers giving dogs drugs to make them perform better is the second biggest myth when it comes to dog training. I'd point out that heroin, for example is an depressant. Just how is this dog supposed to work when he's stoned. ha ha. While it wouldn't take much to convince me that some Mals are indeed on crack, they really aren't. Imagine a dog that will work that hard for just a tennis ball, rolled up towel, jute tug. That's what we look for. Just one part of the test I use to select a dog. I pick it up from where ever it is. I take it to someplace it's never been, no one around the dog knows, I throw a ball in grass that is at least 1 foot tall. If the dog will not continually search for the ball for at least 2 full minutes, no marking, no messing around, just continually looking for the ball, the test is over and the dog goes back. If it can't do this simplest part of the test, there is just no sense in going on. Just for the record, we don't give them drugs, we don't give bomb dogs explosives either. We don't bite our patrol dogs to make them bite. We don't feed them gun powder to make them mean. Oh yeah, people really ask that. 

DFrost


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## AbbyK9

Well ... I can't speak for departments in general or specific states in particular, but I did just come back from the Green Mountain Iron Dog, which is a competition in Vermont that is for both police K-9 teams and civilians, with several of the competitive events being law enforcement only (such as the drug search and building search) and several being shared.

So, based on the folks I've met there - more law enforcement teams than civilians - and interacting with them, talking with them, etc. here's my opinion.

First, choking a dog off the bite is not the norm among law enforcement agencies. It is not with the military and it is not with the (mostly Vermont) K-9s I met at the event. Actually, one of the required tasks in the building search is to CALL the dog off the bite AND back to the handler, no physical contact allowed. (The officer remains at the threshold throughout the search and gives no commands to his dog except to call him off the suspect and back to him.) As most dogs ran 17 and 18 second times in the building search between entering and returning to the handler after getting a bite, it stands to reason that they had no issues getting their dogs to "out" on command and therefore have no need to choke their dogs off to get compliance.

All but one of the handlers I talked to at the event take their dogs home where they are a part of their family. Their kids play with the dogs - several of their kids and spouses were at the event, too, playing with the dog, petting the dog, holding the dog. These dogs go home after their shift and interact with the family, they don't go back to the kennel. (Military working dogs, on the other hand, go back to the kennel, not home with their handlers.)

As far as "obvious reasons" why civilians may not be allowed to observe normal training would be the liability factor. What happens if you position yourself where you shouldn't be and the dog bites you, for example? That seems to be the most obvious reason I can think of.

Then, of course, there would also be a concern about screening people to ensure that they don't show all their training secrets to crooks who would use them to "reverse engineer" the dog's training. When civilians request to do a ride-along with a local law enforcement officer, they generally have to do paperwork, get fingerprinted, and pass a background check before they're allowed - they don't just get to ride along. Again, it should be obvious WHY. I would assume that something similar could be done for someone wanting to observe K-9 teams but such a program, unlike ride-along programs, are not generally in place in most areas.

Just some thoughts.


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## DFrost

Is a dog ever choked off a bite? Let me present a scenario; You have a high drive dog. The dog was picked becasue he had solid nerves. He has the level of fight drive necessary. One of the strongest reinforcements for a dog like this is the fight. Now you take the instinctive behaviors of breathing and survival. Now you have a drugged out moron, the dog is deployed, which is one of his jobs and the moron wants to fight. He bounces the dog off the floor, walls, tries to choke him, hits him, kicks him etc, etc. This person is fighting with an animal that likes to fight. Most dogs in this situation are going to be reluctant to release on command. The dog is "in the zone". That's real life and situations like that happen. Choking is also a safety measure to lessen injury to the person being bitten in a situation like this. It's no secret. These dogs, as has been said, are not the type of dog you generally see in a living in someones house as a pet. they are truly working dogs.

DFrost


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## AbbyK9

> Is a dog ever choked off a bite?


Re: the above, I suppose one should also mention that there are some departments that maybe don't work as much on a reliable out (or on basic obedience) as they should. 

I believe K-9 Cop Magazine recently had an article on teaching a reliable out that cited exactly that (not enough basic obedience, not enough focus on the out) as two of the primary reasons why some dogs don't out and why some handlers take the "easy" route and choke their dogs off the bite.


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## Hit Factor

DFrost said:


> Oh yeah, all the secret words and codes, ha ha. We won't even talk about the secret handshake, ha ha
> 
> DFrost


When I was Copping the secret handshake was the same as a regular handshake. Did it change?


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## kiwilrdg

> When I was Copping the secret handshake was the same as a regular handshake. Did it change?


Since all cops are still Masons who are controlling the world it has not changed :laugh:


On the serious end, There are still a few officers that use outdated and cruel training techniques. Just as there are some civilian shepherd owners who do the same.


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## DFrost

kiwilrdg said:


> Since all cops are still Masons who are controlling the world it has not changed :laugh:
> 
> 
> .


Interesting. I didn't know that. You'd think someone would have told me, after this many years. 

DFrost


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## Castlemaid

DFrost said:


> Interesting. I didn't know that. You'd think someone would have told me, after this many years.
> 
> DFrost


 If they did, it would have only been for show.


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## Hunther's Dad

DFrost said:


> Interesting. I didn't know that. You'd think someone would have told me, after this many years.
> 
> DFrost


The "secret handshake" is actually the first part of a thirty-eight step move that will DEVASTATE your attacker! That's why they don't show or tell anyone about it. Except for police and Navy SEALs.

But I'll sell you a DVD on how to do it, for $49.95. Shipping not included. :rofl:


----------



## DFrost

Hunther's Dad said:


> The "secret handshake" is actually the first part of a thirty-eight step move that will DEVASTATE your attacker! That's why they don't show or tell anyone about it. Except for police and Navy SEALs.
> 
> But I'll sell you a DVD on how to do it, for $49.95. Shipping not included. :rofl:


chuckle, chuckle.


----------



## raybeez

After dealing with/and trying to deal with police departments for many years, and being a dog trainer, I have to put an opinion here.
The police seem to think that because it's a police dog, you should not and could not know anything about their dog or their training. The attitude I get from the local police is "You're not a cop, so you don't know anything about training police dogs". 
I always point out that the police wear nice boots for work, and I don't think a cop put their boots together. And they drive around in a nice, big police car. And I don't think a cop built their police car! 
So the local police live in their ignorance, and try to train their dogs. The sad part is, I've been doing Schutzhund, the basis of police k-9 training, for about 20 years. I've also trained dogs for narcotic detection. But because I am not a civilian police officer, I am considered useless to the local police. (I spent 6 years as a military police officer in the Air Force).
And after dealing with/trying to deal with police departments for many, many years, I've come to a conclusion. 85% of police officers are/were bullies, know-it-alls, or bullies who know-it-all. The other 15% are honest, hard working people who are pretty much normal.


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## raybeez

To give you an example of what I'm dealing with here in Az. - I had a FULLY TRAINED Malinois I imported from Germany. He could detect 3 types of narcotics, do protection work, and obedience. Little kids could hug him, and he loved it. I had him for sale for $4500. And I let all the local departments know about the dog, and that he was for sale. It took me over a year to sell him...and I sold him to a Native American tribe. This dog would be their first k-9. He worked out great, found many many pounds of narcotics, and is now retired.
One of the local departments that wouldn't even look at this dog went and bought a 15 month old shepherd that had no training for $5500! A GRAND more than my fully trained dog!
Wonder why taxes are always going up?!?!


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## DFrost

There isn't anything secretive about police dog training. Schutzhund is NOT the basis of police dog training. while there may be some similarities, PSD is not a sport. I don't know why some department didn't want to buy your dog. My guess is, it just didn't meet the standards required. There are many trained dogs purchased by police departments, from civilian vendors each year. The vast majority of them still go through a course specifically for police. Generally, as in dogs with most sport venues, such as schutzhund, ring etc, they are equipment fixated. That must be worked on before being put on the street. You said the dog you were selling was trained on three drugs. Where did you get the drugs to train? What drugs was the dog trained to detect. Since untrained dogs are going for anywhere between 5 and 7 K, I know I would sure at least take a look at any dog for 4,500. In the end it's selection, not price that makes the difference before a purchase. I personally evaluate and have the vet checks done before I buy any dog. I don't know why they didn't buy your dog. My guess would be it just didn't have those characteristics we look for. It sure wasn't because of some double naught secret spy stuff, only us police canine trainers know. I spent 23 years in the Air Force. All but 3 of those years were in the MWD Program. I would disagree with you about only 15% of police officers being hardworking and honest. I've been a police officer for the past 21 years. I'm sorry you got your feelings hurt, but the dog business is a tough business. You're basing this, from what I can read anyway, on one incident that happened several years ago. 

DFrost


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## GSDElsa

Anyhow, back to the original question. K-9 training for police is no different than anything else. They don't want the public watching qaulifying with guns. They don't want the public around when their officers are being tased. They don't want the public around when their officers are being sprayed in the face with mace. Despite how "fun" it would be for you, me, and your mother to watch the different training methods, the last thing officers in training (whether dog or human) need is to micro-manage the public while trying to get serious training done.

Sure YOU might quietly sit off to the side and observe from a distance. But Joe Blow and his wife Jane have 3 obnoxious little kids who they can't control, think it would be fun to let the kids run around the field, and make snide comments like "ugh, that's not how I do it with MY dog." And I'm sure if a prong was brought out you might have some crazy woman screaming about how they should only be using positive methods. Or some loadmouth guy loudly declaring that they are all idiots that can't train. Or.....ok, well I hope you get the point.


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## Jessiewessie99

I think each department trains their dogs differently and gets their dogs from different places.

So can a person go and watch police dogs being trained or no?Does it depend on the department?(My department closes to me with a k9 unit is LAPD).


----------



## DFrost

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I think each department trains their dogs differently and gets their dogs from different places.
> 
> So can a person go and watch police dogs being trained or no?Does it depend on the department?(My department closes to me with a k9 unit is LAPD).


Training may be different. It's the jobs or specific tasks that are pretty much the same. Police dogs are certified to a standard. The standard, whether it's a state POST standard, a certifying organization such as; California Police Working Dog Association, North American Police Work Dog, Unites States Police Canine Assoc, International Police Work Dog Association etc all have relatively the same standards. What that means is, while training may differ from department to department, the tasks the dog is required to perform are pretty much the same and are measured, regardless of the certifying agency, to pretty much the same standard. For example; drug dogs may be "trained" differently. Almost all certification agencies, including state POST require; an observable response at an acceptable proficiency rate, with a minimum falst response rate. No matter how the trainer may train the dog, they still have to perform that task to be a drug dog. Police Canine standards, while not actually set by courts, are very sensitive to previous court rulings. Most of what a PSD is required to do is a result of some court ruling. 

People are permitted to observe us train. There are no secrets. There is of course some training that people aren't permitted to observe, but that's because of location, not the type of training. Some places we train are restricted entry. Some places we train may be a closed business, with the approval of the business owner of coure, at midnight. They (business owners) don't want other people around for several reasons. Sometimes we're doing training where there could be some liability to innocent bystanders, of course we are not willing to accept that liability. I have people stop by and observe us train quite often. There really isn't any smoke and mirrors or double naught secret spy stuff. There are only a few things I do not share in public forums about what we do. One is the explosives we train the dog to detect. Another would be tactics for deployment in dangerous situations. While mostly, it is common sense, it's just something police officers, canine or otherwise, don't discuss. 

DFrost


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## fatmit1

In delaware we have a LOT of K9 units, mostly i think because of the huge amount of violent crime in wilmington. Litteraly every other squad car or police SUV has a dog in the back of it. Because we are so crammed in in this little state of ours, If you go by any local little league field or soccer field, there is a good chance you'll see a k9 working desperatly to recive a pat on the head and a chance to chew on his favorite kong, if they are keeping secrets here, they need to work a lot harder on it...


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## Lexi

selzer said:


> maybe after training with weed, they all get together at the end of class and have a little party???


:rofl:


----------



## lcht2

GSD_man said:


> I was always wondering ...
> 
> Unless you are K9 police officer or possibly press, you are not allowed to observe a police dog training sessions. I already tried. At least that's how it is here in the state of NY. Why is this? Are the cops scared that criminals are going to pick up on their "secret" training strategies or random john doe's are going to produce cop dogs which go out and bite the public. Does police dog training really have to be kept a secret? How come retired K9 cops are allowed to pursue a career in dog training and share their "secrets" with the public.
> 
> What am I overlooking here. Your thoughts are appreciated.


 
its business, its all about the competition and who can produce a stronger dog. dogs in programs are sold, and if you have others learning your practice then your training value goes down.


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## kiwilrdg

In the city where I live the police training is "secret" but it is still pretty easy to gain access. My wife has helped with dog training and for tactical training last week they had about 40 people helping as a mall crowd for a shooting scenario. No one is allowed to video or take pictures but it is a pretty open secret. I have checked a little more and it does vary a lot in how hard it is to get access to LEO training. I found several areas where even other officers are not allowed to watch dog training. I think it is to prevent law suites from people who are denied access, just keep everyone out.


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## ladylaw203

Most agencies conduct public controlled demos from time to time. The main reason we do not allow random to folks to watch is simple. In this day of cell phone video etc, we do not want video of dogs working. When I give seminars, no video. There are tons of "expert" witnesses for the defense that use that video against us in court. Folks on juries are not dog trainers. Some fast talking "expert" can get on the stand and convince them that a dog was false alerting, handler solicited the alert etc. Not true, but it comes down to who is the best talker. Just a fact.


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## Fast

ladylaw203 said:


> Most agencies conduct public controlled demos from time to time. The main reason we do not allow random to folks to watch is simple. In this day of cell phone video etc, we do not want video of dogs working. When I give seminars, no video. There are tons of "expert" witnesses for the defense that use that video against us in court. Folks on juries are not dog trainers. Some fast talking "expert" can get on the stand and convince them that a dog was false alerting, handler solicited the alert etc. Not true, but it comes down to who is the best talker. Just a fact.



What a laugh. Are you saying that the justice system all comes down to who the best talker is?  Great atitude for a member of the "justice system" to have.:crazy:


The reason most departments don't want you to see them train is because the dogs are not able to consistently meet the standards. When they can't meet those standards in a training situation it becomes hard to prove that they are meeting those standards on the street. They also want to keep up the facade that police dogs are super dogs. I don't think that LEO officers are wrong in their stance of no spectators, but let's try to keep it real.


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## kiwilrdg

> What a laugh. Are you saying that the justice system all comes down to who the best talker is?  Great atitude for a member of the "justice system" to have.:crazy:


A realistic attitude, spend any amount of time in court and you will see that often it is not a matter of the truth as much as it is being able to verbalize your side of the truth. "If the glove don't fit..."



> The reason most departments don't want you to see them train is because the dogs are not able to consistently meet the standards. When they can't meet those standards in a training situation it becomes hard to prove that they are meeting those standards on the street.


Are you basing this on time with the dogs. I am in an area that allows some public access and I am a LEO so I see the standards that are well maintained in my area. We even have friendly competition to keep the best dogs. It is fun to see the other department's dogs come out and help us with searches.



> They also want to keep up the facade that police dogs are super dogs.


I agree with that. Any limitations in a security system should be kept confidential so it will not be abused.



> I don't think that LEO officers are wrong in their stance of no spectators, but let's try to keep it real.


I agree with that as well


----------



## DFrost

Fast said:


> The reason most departments don't want you to see them train is because the dogs are not able to consistently meet the standards. When they can't meet those standards in a training situation it becomes hard to prove that they are meeting those standards on the street. They also want to keep up the facade that police dogs are super dogs. I don't think that LEO officers are wrong in their stance of no spectators, but let's try to keep it real.


That's absolutely untrue. First, no court in the U.S. has ever required perfection in police service dogs. It is why training records are so important. Accurate training records will show when the dog "messed up" or was not perfect on a certain training day. In addition, training records will indicate what was done to correct any deficiency. I've testified on the proficiency of working dogs many times in both state and federal courts, never, and it's important to repeat that, never has perfection been a court requirement. If you understand what "discovery" is, then you'd know there isn't much to hide from a lawyer. 

As for the facade that police dogs are "super dogs", that's laughable. You can buy the same dog I buy from a vendor. He/she in most cases, will take your 6 to 8 thousand dollars just as fast as he'll take mine. I said earlier in this thread, my K9 unit is paid for with taxpayer money, except for a few places I train, where entry is restricted, anyone is able to stop by and watch whatever we are doing on that particular day. It ain't rocket science and it sure isn't smoke and mirrors. I don't do anything to train a drug dog other than basic operant conditioning, nothing more and nothing less. Same with a bomb dog, although admittedly there are a few tactical measures and the list of odors, we don't make public. Anyone with common sense though can pretty much figure out what odors are used. as for patrol/apprehension dogs, the police really don't do anything more, except possible meeting higher standards, than any protection dog trainer does. Many of whom are ex police or military canine trainers. It's really laughable, from my perspective that people think it's really some deep dark secret. Except for the secret handshake of course.

DFrost


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## scuba_bob

Fast said:


> What a laugh. Are you saying that the justice system all comes down to who the best talker is?  Great atitude for a member of the "justice system" to have.:crazy:
> 
> 
> The reason most departments don't want you to see them train is because the dogs are not able to consistently meet the standards. When they can't meet those standards in a training situation it becomes hard to prove that they are meeting those standards on the street. *They also want to keep up the facade that police dogs are super dogs.* I don't think that LEO officers are wrong in their stance of no spectators, but let's try to keep it real.


The RCMP will sell dogs that didn't cut it....


Dogs for Sale


----------



## ladylaw203

Fast said:


> What a laugh. Are you saying that the justice system all comes down to who the best talker is?  Great atitude for a member of the "justice system" to have.:crazy:
> 
> 
> The reason most departments don't want you to see them train is because the dogs are not able to consistently meet the standards. When they can't meet those standards in a training situation it becomes hard to prove that they are meeting those standards on the street. They also want to keep up the facade that police dogs are super dogs. I don't think that LEO officers are wrong in their stance of no spectators, but let's try to keep it real.


 
And exactly how many police service dogs are you exposed to? I am a certifying official for the largest police service dog organization in the nation. If a dog fails a cert, the agency takes him off of the street until he passes. The rest of your post is not worth responding to.


----------



## novarobin

Fast said:


> What a laugh. Are you saying that the justice system all comes down to who the best talker is?  Great atitude for a member of the "justice system" to have.:crazy: .


Spoken like someone who has never spent hours being cross examined on a witness stand or watched closing arguments. 
Great attitude or not, it is a fact. There is a reason why there are high priced law firms. Loopholes and fancy talking. 



Fast said:


> The reason most departments don't want you to see them train is because the dogs are not able to consistently meet the standards. When they can't meet those standards in a training situation it becomes hard to prove that they are meeting those standards on the street. .


Again, like I said, the unit here trains every Wednesday. You can find them training in any part of the region this Police. Typical spots they go are an industrial park, the airport (nice long open fields), open fields through out, the back parking lot of the station, and random neighborhoods (tracking). 

Also, like DFrost mentioned, detailed training logs are kept. Every year our dogs recertify. 



Fast said:


> They also want to keep up the facade that police dogs are super dogs. I don't think that LEO officers are wrong in their stance of no spectators, but let's try to keep it real.


I have never claimed that all Police dogs are well trained. I admit there are departments who training is lacking. But that is not the system as a whole. 

PS- it makes the job a whole lot easier when the other side does think that the dogs are super dogs.


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## bocron

The K9 guys around here used to have observers on a regular basis. They trained here with us and the only days that were closed to outsiders was when they were working on area searches since we didn't random people wandering through the training. Sometimes it would be closed when there were new guys since it made them nervous to be watched while they were trying to learn new skills.
When we used to train the Macon guys, they used the local high schools football stadium and there were always people in the stands watching (including the "groupies").


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## Fast

novarobin said:


> Also, like DFrost mentioned, detailed training logs are kept. Every year our dogs recertify.


And who makes and retains those logs? 

And just because a dog certifies once a year does not means that his training is maintained at that level year around. 




> I have never claimed that all Police dogs are well trained. I admit there are departments who training is lacking. But that is not the system as a whole.


I never said anything about the system as a whole. But, as you admit, there are departments that are "lacking". Do you think that those departments might not want people to come watch them train? 



> PS- it makes the job a whole lot easier when the other side does think that the dogs are super dogs.


And that's why, as I said, LEOs want to keep up that facade. Nothing wrong with that.


----------



## Fast

ladylaw203 said:


> And exactly how many police service dogs are you exposed to? I am a certifying official for the largest police service dog organization in the nation. If a dog fails a cert, the agency takes him off of the street until he passes. The rest of your post is not worth responding to.


I work with a few dozen a year...mostly when it's time to re-certify and they have to put control back on the dog so they can fool the certifying officials.


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## ladylaw203

A few dozen. You have very limited exposure. That explains a lot. 
One does not fool a certifiying official. The dog passes or the dog does not.
There are agencies with dogs that need better maintenance training just as there are trainers and vendors who put out junk.  Nothing is 100%


----------



## Fast

ladylaw203 said:


> A few dozen. You have very limited exposure. That explains a lot.
> One does not fool a certifiying official. The dog passes or the dog does not.
> There are agencies with dogs that need better maintenance training just as there are trainers and vendors who put out junk.  Nothing is 100%


Don't even try it. :laugh: I WORK a few dozen. 

If a dog is tricked into the correct behavior and it's known that that behavior will not hold up for very long once the dog is back on the street, and a someone certifies that that dog is fit for the street, that person has been fooled.

But I'm sure that wouldn't happen to you. With your skill and vast experience you could never be fooled by my shabby training.


----------



## ladylaw203

Fast said:


> Don't even try it. :laugh: I WORK a few dozen.
> 
> If a dog is tricked into the correct behavior and it's known that that behavior will not hold up for very long once the dog is back on the street, and a someone certifies that that dog is fit for the street, that person has been fooled.
> 
> .


 
Dogs don't get "tricked" into correct behavior. there are those who don't worry about a cert until right before it is up,then panic management sets in and a LOT of compulsion in order to hope the dog passes. then they go back to status quo. NO certification is a thorough evaluation of a dog's total capability on the street. It is a MINIMUM set of standards. Period. If a dog passes the standard,we have to pass the dog. Standards are not meant to be very subjective otherwise personalities can come into play. I have a little wiggle room,but not much. dog passes the written standard, he passes.


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## DFrost

Fast said:


> If a dog is tricked into the correct behavior and it's known that that behavior will not hold up for very long once the dog is back on the street, and a someone certifies that that dog is fit for the street, that person has been fooled.
> 
> .


I'd like to know exactly how the dog is "tricked" into the correct behavior. When you say: "it's knows that the behavior will not hold up", who is it exactly that "knows" this. The handler or the evaluator. Exactly how long is: "not hold up for very long". You talk like a trainer of great experience, dozens of dogs, and I admit mine is limited so if you could answer those questions it would be of great benefit.

If I understand correctly, when the handler draws his order during the apprehension trial how does he trick the dog into the recall when it is 1st as opposed to 3rd? 

Just curious

DFrost


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## ladylaw203

DFrost said:


> You talk like a trainer of great experience, dozens of dogs, and I admit mine is limited so if you could answer those questions it would be of great benefit.
> 
> 
> 
> DFrost


Yea, me too..... you are so bad.......


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## DFrost

ladylaw203 said:


> Yea, me too..... you are so bad.......


I know, sometimes I can't help myself.


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## ladylaw203

I hear ya. cops... LOL We are not right........


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## Lesley1905

selzer said:


> I don't know,
> 
> Maybe liability
> 
> Maybe they do not want just anyone to know the strengths and weaknesses of individual dogs
> 
> Maybe they do not want people to see how dogs are trained to track or trail so that people could work on ways to avoid being tracked.
> 
> Maybe the individuals have enough to be thinking about and doing that they do not want to be critiqued by the public while doing it.
> 
> maybe after training with weed, they all get together at the end of class and have a little party???


LOL I agree  I've watched the K9s at my husbands department train before. I'll have to ask him if the general public is aloud. I know they are trained in German, maybe they don't want criminals to learn their commands...but then again, I know the dogs only listen to the handler and thats it so I guess that doesnt make sense...sorry, just typing as I'm thinking


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## kiwilrdg

> I work with a few dozen a year...mostly when it's time to re-certify and they have to put control back on the dog so they can fool the certifying officials.


Sounds kind of like the type of lax training that a few officers do that everyone is complaining about. Isn't a trainer who tries short-term tricks and teaches the officers to fool the officials the problem?


----------



## DFrost

kiwilrdg said:


> Isn't a trainer who tries short-term tricks and teaches the officers to fool the officials the problem?


The standard is: the dog must release the bite and return to the heel, upon command. Please explain to me how the officer fools the official. 

The standard is: the dog will, when commanded, stop pursuit of the suspect, without biting and return to the handler. 

The measurement of both these behaviors is very simple. The dog either did it or he didn't. There isn't a graduated scale of almost, close, 70%, good enough etc. How exactly, unless the official is just plain crooked, does the "dog team" get credit for doing it correctly, if they don't. Is the dog being "tricked"? I don't know some may call it a trick. I prefer to call it training. Bottom line is, the dog either does it or he doesn't. 
That's why I asked for an explanation of "tricked" or "fooled". Obviously you folks have certified many dogs in police service work and know some secrets many of us just haven't learned yet. Please share. I mean I was even taught the secret handshake, but still don't know the trick or how to fool the certification official. If you mean they cheat, say so. A serious charge however, I would hope if someone was to make that charge they would have proof. 

DFrost


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## kiwilrdg

Sorry if I didn't sound sarcastic enough. That was not meant to imply that I thought short term fixes could get one through certification. 

I meant that if a trainer had such "tricks" that the trainer who claimed to help the officers would be the problem if these "tricks" were used.


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## ladylaw203

The problem is not whomever is helping the k9 unit. The problem is a lack of supervision over the k9 unit. I was the training director for a k9 unit for one of the largest Sheriff's dept in Texas. I had my own set of requirements over and above any national cert that also had to be passed. I had mandatory maintenance training etc. There is no reason for a last minute fix to pass a yearly cert if the unit has proper supervision.


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## robinhuerta

Renee,
It's been my understanding that most K9 handlers & their dogs, continue to "train" on a regular basis...(at least the Training Center I know of in Illinois does)??
Is that also common practice elsewhere?


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## DFrost

K9 handlers in our department are required to have 16 hours of canine inservice monthly. All of the training is documented and reviewed by the K9 Director. To the best of my knowledge, the three largest K9 certification agencies recommend 16 hours per month as well. As Renee stated, while we adhere to the requirements of one of the larger canine certification agencies, the department has its' own standards that exceed those of the certifying agency. 

DFrost


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## kiwilrdg

In addition to the 16 hours of mandatory inservice there is also a great deal of extra work that is done to ensure that officers in the street know what to do while the dog is working and so there will be efficient searches if the dogs work with other dogs from the same, or other departments at the same scene.

Perhaps some areas are shoddy in their training, but I am not in an area like that.


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## ladylaw203

Absolutely. And that ongoing maintenance training had better be documented especially if one is doing highway drug interdiction.


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## onyx'girl

> I was always wondering ...
> 
> Unless you are K9 police officer or possibly press, you are not allowed to observe a police dog training sessions. I already tried. At least that's how it is here in the state of NY. Why is this? Are the cops scared that criminals are going to pick up on their "secret" training strategies or random john doe's are going to produce cop dogs which go out and bite the public. Does police dog training really have to be kept a secret? How come retired K9 cops are allowed to pursue a career in dog training and share their "secrets" with the public.
> What am I overlooking here. Your thoughts are appreciated.


Vohne Liche Kennels

This kennel is the real deal...many of my states K9's come from here. I don't think they want or need an audience to view training, and if you did, IMO, you should pay the same as what the depts are charged to train these great dogs.


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## novarobin

robinhuerta said:


> Renee,
> It's been my understanding that most K9 handlers & their dogs, continue to "train" on a regular basis...(at least the Training Center I know of in Illinois does)??
> Is that also common practice elsewhere?


Here, and in several of the larger departments across my country I am familiar with, one 8 hour shift a week is designated as a training day. Our day is Wednesday. 
Recertifications are done over the course of a week once a year.


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## ladylaw203

onyx'girl said:


> Vohne Liche Kennels
> 
> This kennel is the real deal...many of my states K9's come from here. I don't think they want or need an audience to view training, and if you did, IMO, you should pay the same as what the depts are charged to train these great dogs.


 Liche is a vendor. There are many nice vendors around.


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## onyx'girl

They also have Training


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## ladylaw203

Again, many of them do. I have been dealing with these vendors for well over 20yrs.


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## DFrost

ladylaw203 said:


> I have been dealing with these vendors for well over 20yrs.


 
You younguns' ha ha ha.


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## ladylaw203

haha


----------



## Fast

ladylaw203 said:


> Dogs don't get "tricked" into correct behavior. there are those who don't worry about a cert until right before it is up,then panic management sets in and a LOT of compulsion in order to hope the dog passes. then they go back to status quo. NO certification is a thorough evaluation of a dog's total capability on the street. It is a MINIMUM set of standards. Period. If a dog passes the standard,we have to pass the dog. Standards are not meant to be very subjective otherwise personalities can come into play. I have a little wiggle room,but not much. dog passes the written standard, he passes.


Are you saying that you don't have to have any knowledge training and behavior to be an evaluator because it's so "subjective"? Is an evaluator simply an accountant?

But I did love to read this little snippet of truth:

*NO certification is a thorough evaluation of a dog's total capability on the street.*


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## DFrost

Fast said:


> Are you saying that you don't have to have any knowledge training and behavior to be an evaluator because it's so "subjective"? Is an evaluator simply an accountant?
> 
> But I did love to read this little snippet of truth:
> 
> *NO certification is a thorough evaluation of a dog's total capability on the street.*


Perhaps you should read her post again. In her post she stated: 
"Standards are not meant to be very subjective otherwise personalities can come into play." The emphasis is on the "NOT subjective". Meaning an evalualtion is meant to be objective. The dog will **********. When the evaluator observes that behavior, the dog either did or didn't. 

As for your comment about "little snippet of truth". Actually, it once again shows your ignorance of police working dogs. The comment is more than just a snippet. It's a mantra for all trainers and canine officers. No certification will tell you what a dog is going to do during an actual incident. Good training combined with a solid certification will give some predictability as to expect results. Try as we may however, there are some situations that we just can not replicate during training. We do more than just recognize the truth in that statement. Until that dog has been "baptized" under fire, it's all an unknown.

To be honest, your comments appear as if you have some axe to grind with police canine. In truth, your comments also display a very limited knowledge. Probably limited to watching some sport dogs and "You Tube" presentations of poorly trained/deployed dogs. I don't know. Don't really care. I will however, in the interest of giving you correct information, answer any question you have about PSD's. As I've said, there isn't any smoke and mirrors in this business. Just good solid technique.

DFrost


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## ladylaw203

Fast said:


> Are you saying that you don't have to have any knowledge training and behavior to be an evaluator because it's so "subjective"? Is an evaluator simply an accountant?
> 
> But I did love to read this little snippet of truth:
> 
> *NO certification is a thorough evaluation of a dog's total capability on the street.*


 
Ditto what Frost said. You are obviously not informed with regard to what any yearly certification is supposed to represent.
As far as the other, wow............
If you cannot post something other than sarcasm ,refrain. I will just delete it and lock the thread. You obviously have some kind of resentment toward cops, k9 cops or something. Post logical questions or comments or let it go.


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## cliffson1

Good post Renee and Frost,
People have so little knowledge of some things and such big opinions...recipe for ignorance.
BTW, We just had our annual SDA trial and we had active police officers from Region 15 USPCA, trial in our Police Dog title. (Region 15 is home of K9 Schultz and I was told his handler was at the trial that day....I was competing so missed him). Anyway, though this isn't training it is a public forum in which people could see active police dogs work. Different states and departments have different rules and regs often based on the opinions of the Solicitor for the K9 units governing body.


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## ladylaw203

Very good deal.
Most departments put on demos. Maintenance training though is normally closed to the public just as is our firearms,defensive tactics yadda yadda.


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## Catu

I have not posted in this thread because I'm not from your country not your culture but, regarding to the original question: 

*Why is police dog training trying to be kept secretive?*

My only answer is... why they should show anything but results? :shrug:


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## psdontario

I am a civilian that has been invited to and attended training sessions during a 16-week police dog certification program in Ontario, Canada during which I watched one of the dogs that I raised be trained for building searches, obedience, tracking, article/area searches, narcotic searches, bark and hold work, agility and bitework. I did not attend all sessions, but the sessions I did attend WERE NOT brutal at all (and this is coming from a reward-based trainer). All dogs were composed, no unwarranted aggression and all were safe to be around on and off leash. I have had 2 dogs go through and certify under this program and neither one is any different in their character and temperament, both are still very spirited. All of my questions were answered by the head trainer, I was involved in a few exercises as well.
I have had access to "ride-alongs" with my local community K9 unit where we went on real calls (I stayed in the car when they tracked the criminal though), drank coffee LOL, did some obedience and laid a 1/2 km track in my bitesuit in the middle of winter only to be found and detained by the dog.
I have been invited to attend law enforcement K9 seminars held in the U.S. as well (but have yet to attend, my budget is not quite there).

The agencies have been very, very good to me, the difference being, I had assisted them with their own dogs (working through training issues privately) and provided other agencies with dogs that are now in service. 
I believe, from my experience, that law enforcement is a serious line of work. The K9 officers are bombarded with all kinds of ridiculous and often repetitive questions from the general public on a daily basis. On top of that, people who do not even have a clue what the job entails seem to stop to give them training advice. I can understand why they are so guarded about having people out to their sessions. I found that if you keep your mouth shut, get to understand what the job is about, ask intelligent questions (and keep your opinion to yourself), and keep your mitts off the dogs the officers and trainers are more receptive to allowing you to view training exercises. This has been my experience at least, and I have met some truly excellent, knowledgeable people that have and continue to provide me with guidance as I prepare and place more dogs into service.
Of course, there are always going to be conflicting personalities that, for one reason or another, have a bias against civilian involvement or have ego issues, but the majority are very willing to share information with you and answer questions. They are human so they are not all perfect.

Cheers,

Mike


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## psdontario

BTW, greetings LadyLaw, I believe I recognize you from Euro list. Nice to see another familiar face!

Cheers,

Mike


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## Lora

We donated our Black Lab (for reasons I won't get into on the public board) to a training facility for Police Canines. She was trained to be a dang good K9, Alley became the first Drug Detection K-9 in Thunder Bay, Ontario and made one of the largest drug busts ever. I know she was treated with love, sometimes that love had to be "tough love", her life as a K9 was a good life, but the "tough love" was necessary for her to do her job and for her to have a life.


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## hunterisgreat

They won't cross train with our club (I've been told)... which is odd because several club members are on the LEO K9 supply & training side for a living lol. They source dogs from them, and will let them train their dogs, but won't cross train with a civilian club


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## DFrost

hunterisgreat said:


> They source dogs from them, and will let them train their dogs, but won't cross train with a civilian club


There are number of reasons. Our department is the same way. Any law enforcement can train with our department at no cost. We do not train with civilians for a couple of reasons.

1. Liability. Like it or not, this is a society that loves a good law suit. Lawyers can hear a potential law suit a mile away. someone gets hurt (and it is possible) The department is thought to have deep pockets - - viola' you have a law suit. 

2. I'm the trainer for a large department. I can't charge people to train, I'm paid, by the state, to do that. If I train them for free (at the state's expense) then I'm competing with someone that is trying to train dogs for a living. I have no overhead, no expenses that come out of my pocket. Plus I don't have to take off work to train a dog, it is my work. It just isn't fair. 

That is just a couple of the reasons.

DFrost


----------



## hunterisgreat

DFrost said:


> There are number of reasons. Our department is the same way. Any law enforcement can train with our department at no cost. We do not train with civilians for a couple of reasons.
> 
> 1. Liability. Like it or not, this is a society that loves a good law suit. Lawyers can hear a potential law suit a mile away. someone gets hurt (and it is possible) The department is thought to have deep pockets - - viola' you have a law suit.
> 
> 2. I'm the trainer for a large department. I can't charge people to train, I'm paid, by the state, to do that. If I train them for free (at the state's expense) then I'm competing with someone that is trying to train dogs for a living. I have no overhead, no expenses that come out of my pocket. Plus I don't have to take off work to train a dog, it is my work. It just isn't fair.
> 
> That is just a couple of the reasons.
> 
> DFrost


I can understand that. Would be nice to get use of their facilities though. Our city banned dogs from any athletic field so finding places to train is tough


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## RowdyDogs

I realize this is an old thread, but in case anyone is just stumbling on it like I did, I can personally vouch for the fact that it's not all secret. One of our local K9 units trains with the local Schutzhund club regularly (sort-of separate but some stuff jointly, it's neat to watch), and their trainer also regularly works with local K9 SAR teams as a volunteer clinician. The latter isn't quite the same as watching them train, but we're still learning his methods and he talks a lot about training police dogs. Both the local K9 units (county and city) also regularly give demonstrations at public events like the State Fair or animal-related fundraisers (recently I saw them at a big fundraising event for a new facility for the county animal shelter), and actually try to bring a mixture of dogs from ones just starting in their training to experienced K9s.

A random member of the public wouldn't be allowed to sit in on one of their regular training sessions (except the weekend one they do at a public park with the SchH club), but I think that's more about liability and distraction than anything. Having curious onlookers at every training session would get very tiresome I'm sure, so a blanket ban makes sense to me. It's the same reason why they now restrict ride-alongs to people who have a reason--people who want to become LEOs or other first responders and need the experience, volunteers like police chaplains who do it as part of their training so they can understand what the officers are experiencing, that sort of thing. They used to allow anyone with an interest to go, but it became overwhelming and distracting (and thus dangerous) to the officers, so they restricted it to special circumstances.

Some methods they use in training might be bad publicity because training working dogs isn't always pretty, but honestly I think that's a pretty minor concern for my local police. I've actually seen one of their closed sessions and didn't see anything that most people would really have a problem with. I realize that's just one session and as others have said, training methods vary by department, but I'd be surprised if it's a PR thing for them. In fact, generally APD encourages interest in and questions about their training methods, as part of a strategy to rehabilitate their image (as a department they had many problems with corruption and excessive violence, to the point that the current chief of police was appointed specifically to reform the department, so it may be a bit of an unusual case, I will admit).

My mom is a police chaplain, I give clinics to the mounted police unit occasionally, and I'm a member of a K9 SAR team that works with the police trainer I mentioned, so that's where my knowledge is coming from, just for full disclosure.


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## k9barco

One of the guarded secrets is how to effectively hide scent from a k9. Not too many ways but a major secret.

Also most cops only train with cops. The problem is that just because you are a LEO k9 trainer, that does not make you a good trainer.

Sometimes problems that are created at their facility are fixed by non LEO trainers.


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## Tim Connell

In our area, there is quite a bit of crossover among our civilians and police...

Having said that, there are some who feel they are a bit elitist, and won't train with civilians at all...they probably don't want people to see their less than impressive dogs. 

Some places simply won't let them train outside their "training circle"...they are not even allowed to train with other police that are not part of their clique.


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## cliffson1

Any organization that has been in place for a length of time develops folks that take an eldest attitude about what they do and who they will do it with. I agree with D Frost about the logistical reasons depts. frown on or prohibit commingling of training with civilians. Even though I am granted access through my USPCA membership, and consulting in training, and a state vendor for procurement,....I still find officers that ask to train with me on the QT. it is what it is.


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## DFrost

k9barco said:


> One of the guarded secrets is how to effectively hide scent from a k9. Not too many ways but a major secret.
> 
> .


I think that statement is funny. What we know about hiding scent from K9's is learned from those that are doing it. Drug runners can be very crafty in their concealment. There are no schools that I know that teach the proper way to hide drugs. While we certainly try to replicate what we see in the real world, it is that "real world" that is the teacher. 

DFrost


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## flynbyu2

LEO K9 handler here. I haven't read every comment but some are a bit disturbing to me.

As far as watching our training sessions, it wouldn't be beneficial to us if every person knew our dog's commands. We don't want the bad guy being able to "OUT" our dog and make him lay down. My working dog was trained in Israel and understands commands in Hebrew. Some are in Dutch, some in Polish, some German and so on. Some handlers make up their own commands just for the above mentioned reason. 

Our dogs are chosen because they are super high prey & hunt drive. These dogs would make terrible pets but are well suited for police work. They need to be mentally stimulated numerous times throughout the day, even on our days off.

Our dogs typically hit the streets when they are 18-24 months old. These dogs LOVE to go to work. They hate it when their handlers have a class or court and are forced to stay at home.

These dogs are treated like NBA superstars; being with your dog 40 hours a week you notice little things about your partner. As soon as we see something irregular, they're taken to the vet and get superstar treatment and leading edge care.

Our GSD police K9s usually retire at the age of 7 and typically live with their handler to a nice ripe old age. We have lost several dogs to gunshots, getting hit by cars and one during a horrific accidents while riding in their K9 vehicles. However civilian dogs can also suffer these types of fatal endings. The big difference is when a regular dog dies, the funeral is not attended by 200+ police officers and another 100 K9s.

Police dogs do many functions that their human counterparts are unable to accomplish, and they love every minute of it.

If you want to see some police dog training in action, watch the show "ALPHA K9" on NatGeoWild. It is a very typical police/military K9 training facility.


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## Tim Connell

An aside to my earlier post: 

I have found it is very important to not alienate civilians when it comes to LE in general, and especially with regard to K9. Civilians, and sport dog people in particular (at least in my area of the country) are some of the biggest advocates and supporters of LE dogs.


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## flynbyu2

Tim Connell said:


> An aside to my earlier post:
> 
> I have found it is very important to not alienate civilians when it comes to LE in general, and especially with regard to K9. Civilians, and sport dog people in particular (at least in my area of the country) are some of the biggest advocates and supporters of LE dogs.


I would never alienate civilians, in fact I typically put on at least two K9 demonstrations each month; mostly for schools and scouts but have also done them at community meetings.

I just think having people watching/video-taping k9 training is about as smart as having them watch/videotape us practice our handcuffing techniques. It's much easier to defeat when you watch it a few times.


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## Tim Connell

Agreed, did not mean you specifically, just "us" , collectively as LE. We need all the support we can get sometimes.

When it comes to LE specific training and tactics, certainly there is a line.


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## Debbieg

Missed this thread until now. Wow; how easily people assume the worst and spread it. 

I know very little about how K9’s are trained, but my family has been friends with two K9 Officers in our town for many years. The first, now retired got his first dog, a GSD from the pound and he served for many years and retired to the officers home. This dog and handler came to our home several times when our oldest son as a teen was getting on the fringe of gang related activity, and with patience and toughness talk with him about the reality of that life. 


His second dog also a GSD also served for many years, and his last dog before retiring was a Giant Schnauzer who rode in the side car of his motorcycle. The other K9 Officer also had a GSD who served many years and retired to live with his family. He said he trusted the do so much that if he had opposable thumbs he would let hi drive! This officer and his family grieved terribly when his test K9 died suddenly of bloat. He was instrumental a few months ago in getting a GSD out of our high kill shelter after it was surrendered by the owner for barking too much.



Every year in Sacramento Sheriffs dept sponsor area there is a race/walk to help pay for medical needs of K9’s. This was started by an officer to pay for treatment when his dog developed cancer. I have seen this dog after treatment happily playing with the officers young children. 

Welcome to the Annual Kaleo’s 5K Run




The bond between these officers and their partners are something all of us dog lovers should strive for. It is clear that this bond could only be was created through fair training. I doubt many high drive dogs could be trained without the humane use of aversives . My own dog does not have the drives or nerve to be a K9 but when amped up he is oblivious to a steak waved under his nose. From my admittedly limited experience I think most K9 have a great life ( a job they love to do and a human partner they love to do it with)


Of course there are some K9 Officers who abuse dogs, but they are in the vast minority, and I am sure no one is more enraged by them then the many K9 Officers who love their dogs and work. PETA has nothing on the what these officers must feel. 

I say this because I work for the Catholic Church and regular spend time, socially and at work with many priests who are true servants giving 24/7 to their people. No one is more hurt or angry with those who have abused people than they are. Some of these priests tell me that they are tempted to not wear their collars when travelling to avoid being called names, but they wear them anyway, just in case a person feels in need of a priest.

I wish people would not be so quick to buy into the media which loves play up the bad side of humanity because it sells, rather than seek the truth.


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## Buzz.babes

flynbyu2 said:


> LEO K9 handler here. I haven't read every comment but some are a bit disturbing to me.
> 
> As far as watching our training sessions, it wouldn't be beneficial to us if every person knew our dog's commands. We don't want the bad guy being able to "OUT" our dog and make him lay down. My working dog was trained in Israel and understands commands in Hebrew. Some are in Dutch, some in Polish, some German and so on. Some handlers make up their own commands just for the above mentioned reason.
> 
> Our dogs are chosen because they are super high prey & hunt drive. These dogs would make terrible pets but are well suited for police work. They need to be mentally stimulated numerous times throughout the day, even on our days off.
> 
> Our dogs typically hit the streets when they are 18-24 months old. These dogs LOVE to go to work. They hate it when their handlers have a class or court and are forced to stay at home.
> 
> These dogs are treated like NBA superstars; being with your dog 40 hours a week you notice little things about your partner. As soon as we see something irregular, they're taken to the vet and get superstar treatment and leading edge care.
> 
> Our GSD police K9s usually retire at the age of 7 and typically live with their handler to a nice ripe old age. We have lost several dogs to gunshots, getting hit by cars and one during a horrific accidents while riding in their K9 vehicles. However civilian dogs can also suffer these types of fatal endings. The big difference is when a regular dog dies, the funeral is not attended by 200+ police officers and another 100 K9s.
> 
> Police dogs do many functions that their human counterparts are unable to accomplish, and they love every minute of it.
> 
> If you want to see some police dog training in action, watch the show "ALPHA K9" on NatGeoWild. It is a very typical police/military K9 training facility.


This rings true to me. I was stationed at Lackand in SA TX and have great respect for the majority of these handlers and have first hand seen the love between them. God speed all the amazing handlers and K9's keeping us safe. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## pache11

Police dogs are not trained in foreign languages so the perp can't give a command to the dog. I haven't met a working K9, police or sport that will listen to a command from a stranger unless trained or conditioned to do so. Police dogs that use foreign language commands are usually bred and raised in the country that speaks that language. It is very difficult to find domestic working shepherds in the U.S. that have the capability to do police and hard defense work, most don't have the protection drive or have other issues that disqualify them.


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