# Why breed Sable with Solid Black



## k9trainersj (Jul 15, 2016)

I am curious to why it seems that people often breed sable with a solid black? This seems to be a frequent occurrence. Does it make the sables darker? Or is it because it is easier to know that will be produced since sable is dominant and solid black is recessive? Thanks for your thoughts!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Good breeders looks at lines, health and temperament, not color. If you are talking about WL, I would assume because those are the colors most prevalent in WL's.

As far as determining colors, the puppies get one gene from each parent. The blacks are a/a. The sables are aw and whatever other gene they got from their parents. The color of the puppies will depend on the combination of color genes in the parents but not necessarily the color of the parents.


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## k9trainersj (Jul 15, 2016)

Jax08 said:


> Good breeders looks at lines, health and temperament, not color. If you are talking about WL, I would assume because those are the colors most prevalent in WL's.
> 
> As far as determining colors, the puppies get one gene from each parent. The blacks are a/a. The sables are aw and whatever other gene they got from their parents. The color of the puppies will depend on the combination of color genes in the parents but not necessarily the color of the parents.


Yes, I understand color is not priority and all and agree it shouldn't be. Just have noticed it is a very common occurrence. I also understand the basics to the color genes just wasn't sure why you so often see the two colors paired together. Maybe it is just because they typically come from the same lines?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

If they are good breeders, then yes, because it's the prominent colors in WL. 

The sire of my dog is black. Mother is Sable. Mother's sire is black, mothers dam is sable. So a/a bread to aw/a. Only two choices for that litter! Black or sable!


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## k9trainersj (Jul 15, 2016)

Jax08 said:


> If they are good breeders, then yes, because it's the prominent colors in WL.
> 
> The sire of my dog is black. Mother is Sable. Mother's sire is black, mothers dam is sable. So a/a bread to aw/a. Only two choices for that litter! Black or sable!


Okay, thanks. Makes sense. So you do not believe that sable to solid black influence the sable coloring?


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## k9trainersj (Jul 15, 2016)

My puppy had a sable sire and solid black dam. The sire came from a dark sable sire and black and tan dam. My puppy's dam came from a black and tan sire and solid black dam. So if I am correct my dog carries the sable and solid black gene and if bred to a solid black dog he would produce sable and solid black only or if bred to a dog of different color that carries solid black gene he could produce sable, solid black and the other color that dog carries (black and tan or whatever). Is this correct? I do not have plans to breed.... just find it all interesting.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

k9trainersj said:


> Okay, thanks. Makes sense. So you do not believe that sable to solid black influence the sable coloring?


No. I don't. I know of several dogs that are half siblings to mine and full siblings. The variation of sable color depth is far and wide. Black is black and sable is sable. It's not a blend of the colors.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

k9trainersj said:


> My puppy had a sable sire and solid black dam. The sire came from a dark sable sire and black and tan dam. My puppy's dam came from a black and tan sire and solid black dam. So if I am correct my dog carries the sable and solid black gene and if bred to a solid black dog he would produce sable and solid black only or if bred to a dog of different color that carries solid black gene he could produce sable, solid black and the other color that dog carries (black and tan or whatever). Is this correct? I do not have plans to breed.... just find it all interesting.


Why? Why do you think your puppy doesn't carry a black and tan gene instead of black?


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## k9trainersj (Jul 15, 2016)

Jax08 said:


> Why? Why do you think your puppy doesn't carry a black and tan gene instead of black?


Is it not true that for my puppy to be sable in color then he has to carry the sable gene from his sire and since his dam is solid black she can only pass down solid black? Which would make him carry sable and solid black? Or maybe I am more clueless than I thought.....lol!!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

k9trainersj

Is your dog a sable? 

ONLY if he is a sable will he reproduce a sable. 

To my knowledge if I recall your dog he would be able to produce black and tan and black . Black if bred to a dog also carrying a black recessive. 

No sable though.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

k9trainersj said:


> Is it not true that for my puppy to be sable in color then he has to carry the sable gene from his sire and since his dam is solid black she can only pass down solid black? Which would make him carry sable and solid black? Or maybe I am more clueless than I thought.....lol!!


yes. I just didn't see where you stated his dam was black, only that she had a black and a black/tan parent.

Dam - a/a
Sire - aw/??

Puppy can only get "a" from mom. Must have gotten "aw" from sire to be sable so puppy is aw/a


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## k9trainersj (Jul 15, 2016)

carmspack said:


> k9trainersj
> 
> Is your dog a sable?
> 
> ...


Yes, he is sable. Dad is sable that came from a sable and black and tan.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

OKAY . He can produce sable. LOL

I was thinking of a totally different dog -- .

Nice looking pup by the way


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## k9trainersj (Jul 15, 2016)

Jax08 said:


> yes. I just didn't see where you stated his dam was black, only that she had a black and a black/tan parent.
> 
> Dam - a/a
> Sire - aw/??
> ...


Oh, okay. Gotcha!


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## k9trainersj (Jul 15, 2016)

carmspack said:


> OKAY . He can produce sable. LOL
> 
> I was thinking of a totally different dog -- .
> 
> Nice looking pup by the way


No problem! Thanks for the compliment. Can't wait to see how he turns out. He is 13 weeks in this picture. Black has started coming in the last week. Wanna guess to how he will look as an adult??


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## Cschmidt88 (Nov 24, 2010)

k9trainersj said:


> Yes, he is sable. Dad is sable that came from a sable and black and tan.


Were any of your puppy's littermates black? If so then your pup's sire is "aw a". As black will only be produced if both parents carry the gene for it.

What other colors were in the litter? If there were black/tan or bicolor pups, then the sire would carry for whichever of those were produced.


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## k9trainersj (Jul 15, 2016)

Cschmidt88 said:


> k9trainersj said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, he is sable. Dad is sable that came from a sable and black and tan.
> ...


There were sables and what I call black and tan. I'm sure my dog's sire carried sable and black and tan. Some say though that some pups were bicolor but I don't think true bicolor just dark black and tan to me. I have attached a pic of the litter.. well most of them. No solid Blacks in the litter though.


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## Cschmidt88 (Nov 24, 2010)

I agree that they look black and tan. If that's the case, then the sire is definitely "aw as". : )


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

you would need to see the full body to determine whether the pups were bi colour .


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## k9trainersj (Jul 15, 2016)

carmspack said:


> you would need to see the full body to determine whether the pups were bi colour .


This is one of them....they all looked similar.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

k9trainersj said:


> Yes, he is sable. Dad is sable that came from a sable and black and tan.


Nice looking pup. How big is the guy. He looks huge. Although everyone else's pup looks bigger than mine. I suppose it's because I see mine every day so I can't notice the growth. Cause everyone else comments on how big Athena is getting. LOL. I still look at Rosko and see a little puppy and he's 65ish lbs.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

k9trainersj said:


> This is one of them....they all looked similar.


so that pup will probably look like my Kilo Carmspack Kilo


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## k9trainersj (Jul 15, 2016)

cdwoodcox said:


> k9trainersj said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, he is sable. Dad is sable that came from a sable and black and tan.
> ...


He turned 14 week today and weighed 36lbs yesterday. I don't know if that is considered big, small or average for his age but he definitely seems to have a very solid bone structure. 

Do you have pics of your to share? Love seeing everyone's pups!


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## k9trainersj (Jul 15, 2016)

Just another couple pics of my Axel!


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

k9trainersj said:


> cdwoodcox said:
> 
> 
> > k9trainersj said:
> ...


He seems to be within a pound or two of Athena. Last time she was at the vet she was 35.3. Haven't weighed her since. That was a couple weeks ago and she is 16 weeks old. Talking to my vet he estimates her adult weight 75-80 lbs. Mother is 75# father is 120. I sure hope she is more like her mother at 75. Father is standard coat sable mother is a long coat black and tan.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

One more.


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## k9trainersj (Jul 15, 2016)

cdwoodcox said:


> k9trainersj said:
> 
> 
> > cdwoodcox said:
> ...


Beautiful dog!!! How old is she in these pics? My dog's is estimated to be between 95/100lbs.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

The top 2 are today. The bottom is the other day. My vet said the rule of thumb he uses for weight is to take the weight at 4 months and double it. He was within 5 lbs of roskos weight. He estimated Athena weight as of last visit at 4 months with her gaining 3-4 lbs a week until 4 months. I hope he's right. I like a 75-80 lb dog over a dog her father's size. 120


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## k9trainersj (Jul 15, 2016)

cdwoodcox said:


> The top 2 are today. The bottom is the other day. My vet said the rule of thumb he uses for weight is to take the weight at 4 months and double it. He was within 5 lbs of roskos weight. He estimated Athena weight as of last visit at 4 months with her gaining 3-4 lbs a week until 4 months. I hope he's right. I like a 75-80 lb dog over a dog her father's size. 120


Interesting.... I was large breeds are typically 1/3 their adult weight at 3.5 months of age. So whatever they weigh then multiple it by 3 and it puts you in the ball park. Guess time will tell huh? Haha


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

So that formula would put her in the 90's. I am sure there are as many formulas as there are vets or owners. LOL. I remember with Rosko I was so preoccupied with how much he weighed. With Athena I am like whatever. She will weigh whatever she is genetically coded to weigh. My only concern is making sure she is getting plenty of exercise and fed a quality food. Like you said. Time will tell.


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## k9trainersj (Jul 15, 2016)

Yep, everyone will say something different. I did do this on a website and notice the results! 

I too am not as concerned either just want him healthy!


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