# Started new ob classes and they confused the heck out of me!



## Miss Molly May (Feb 19, 2010)

We stared more obedience classes with Molly with a different training facility.CKC(Canadian kennel Club). They have a totally 100% positive training method. They told us no leash corrections allowed, we can not be negative in any way(can't say the word NO), not allowed prong, pinch.... collars. With the last trainer we learnt in a positive manner(treat or toy reward) but we used leash corrections and we trained with a prong. 

How are you suppose to correct unwanted behavior?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

We have a SchH club member who does rally and CKC obedience with her dogs - just go along with the class, and when you are training on your own, use whatever correction you feel you need to proof the behaviour.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Miss Molly May said:


> We stared more obedience classes with Molly with a different training facility.CKC(Canadian kennel Club). They have a totally 100% positive training method. They told us no leash corrections allowed, we can not be negative in any way(can't say the word NO), not allowed prong, pinch.... collars. With the last trainer we learnt in a positive manner(treat or toy reward) but we used leash corrections and we trained with a prong.
> 
> How are you suppose to correct unwanted behavior?


 
By changing to another class!


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Miss Molly May said:


> We stared more obedience classes with Molly with a different training facility.CKC(Canadian kennel Club). They have a totally 100% positive training method. They told us no leash corrections allowed, we can not be negative in any way(can't say the word NO), not allowed prong, pinch.... collars. With the last trainer we learnt in a positive manner(treat or toy reward) but we used leash corrections and we trained with a prong.
> 
> How are you suppose to correct unwanted behavior?


Unless it was literally my _only _option, I probably wouldn't stick around..


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## Miss Molly May (Feb 19, 2010)

GatorDog said:


> Unless it was literally my _only _option, I probably wouldn't stick around..


We have very, very limited resources up here! I am open minded to different training methods and will give them a chance! I guess it will be another learning curve for us!


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

I say take the class & give it a try.

I do like a good leash pop every now & then...it wold be hard not to be able to do that! LOL


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Don't knock it until you've tried it!  I have used just about every method in the book but I trained Rafi without a prong, collar or leash corrections. In fact, I trained him primarily with play! I have also been retraining my partner's 9 yo dog using similar methods and she has come a long way in 2 years.

Generally people who are purely positive use redirection instead of corrections. Check out Pat Miller's books and articles. She is an excellent trainer and her instructions are very clear.

I used to be almost purely positive but have gotten lazy recently. :-( Rafi is super biddable and doesn't need corrections. In fact, it slows down his learning when I get sharp with him.


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## ShatteringGlass (Jun 1, 2006)

Can't even tell a dog "no"??? If it were me, I'd drop the class.


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## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

ShatteringGlass said:


> Can't even tell a dog "no"??? .


It hurts their feelings.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

BowWowMeow said:


> Don't knock it until you've tried it!  I have used just about every method in the book but I trained Rafi without a prong, collar or leash corrections. In fact, I trained him primarily with play! I have also been retraining my partner's 9 yo dog using similar methods and she has come a long way in 2 years.
> 
> Generally people who are purely positive use redirection instead of corrections. Check out Pat Miller's books and articles. She is an excellent trainer and her instructions are very clear.
> 
> I used to be almost purely positive but have gotten lazy recently. :-( Rafi is super biddable and doesn't need corrections. In fact, it slows down his learning when I get sharp with him.


*Your last sentence is the key!* For some dogs PO will probably work ok although it might it be slower and less reliable in some cases (this last from JEAN DONALDSON herself).

*BUT,* PO training will not work very well, if at all, for some dogs for some behaviors for some trainers. That is FACT.

A softer more submissive dog will often do pretty well with PO training. A hard headed, more independent, more confident dog will often decide that he wants to do what HE wants to do when he wants to do it; and the redirection and/or treat is not nearly as interesting as what he wants to do at the moment. SO then what does the trainer do? 

That is, what does the trainer do if the thing the dog is doing, is much more attractive than what you want him to do?

And please don't say, as I have heard MSO ANY times "Get a higher value treat", unless you can tell me a higher value treat than a small piece of raw meat!

Corrections work! And done right also result in a VERY happy working dog as well as a Reliable dog!

And personally in my case with Baron (4+ yo male GSD with a few DA issues) a much more sociable dog!

Even Jean Donaldson in one of her books says that PO training will result in a slower to teach and less reliable result for some things.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Stick with it. I know my last rescue dog was turned around using it, when firmer methods failed.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Miss Molly May said:


> We stared more obedience classes with Molly with a different training facility.CKC(Canadian kennel Club). They have a totally 100% positive training method. They told us no leash corrections allowed, we can not be negative in any way(can't say the word NO), not allowed prong, pinch.... collars. With the last trainer we learnt in a positive manner(treat or toy reward) but we used leash corrections and we trained with a prong.
> 
> How are you suppose to correct unwanted behavior?


 
If that is the ONLY class available I would say that you should go to it. If there are more traditional classes around i would say look into them unless your dog is a very soft biddable dog who will probably do pretty well with that approach and of course you can always throw in a small correction or two while you are training him/her outside of class.

You might even be able to do it in class if you talk to the instructor before class and explain that is what you have been doing. They might let you do some small corrections (I.E. leash tugs and/or voice corrections) in class as long as they are not disruptive to others in class.

I have done this in a couple of classes in our local obedience class as well as some lessons with a local behaviorist.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I say stick with it.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

hey wildo,

*"I say stick with it. And I'm sick of seeing the comment that PO only works with soft dogs. Entirely false claim. It might not work with all hard dogs (which I still would argue is lack of trainer experience) but to say it only works with soft dogs is real BS.*Who and where did anyone say that PO "works ONLY with soft dogs"? Doesn't ANY method of training depend on the experience (and skill?) of the trainer? Or are you suggesting that PO will work REGARDLESS of the experience and skill of the trainer? If so, I think I will switch to that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And if so, I would also love to have seen you (with PO and redirection) work with my dog a while ago when we met the other male GSD in our group that he had decided that my guy wanted to kill!


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

That's why I edited it, codmaster. I thought you did make that claim, but then realized you said "often."


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

codmaster said:


> Or are you suggesting that PO will work REGARDLESS of the experience and skill of the trainer?


Even in what I edited out, never once did I make such a claim that PO training doesn't require skill.



codmaster said:


> I would also love to have seen you (with PO and redirection) work with my dog a while ago when we met the other male GSD in our group that he had decided that my guy wanted to kill!


There are PO trainers in this world who on a daily basis work with dogs like that. So I'm not sure what your point is.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

codmaster said:


> *BUT,* PO training will not work very well, if at all, for some dogs for some behaviors for some trainers. That is FACT.


 It doesn't work at all for *some* dogs, *some* behaviors, *some* trainer. That's an interesting "FACT".


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

Try it. 

A behaviorist I went to was positive only. I couldn't even give her a verbal eh eh, and never ever a collar correction. We were allowed to have the dog on a prong but not use it to correct. 

I enjoyed working that way.


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## cowboy17 (Sep 26, 2011)

I have never collar corrected mine.

Ideally, one shouldn't require a collar correction at all. If you do, you probably set the dog up for failure in the first place.


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## Miss Molly May (Feb 19, 2010)

Thanks guys!! I will for sure stick with it! It won't do any harm and I am always willing to learn! It will be more of a challenge to break my training habit and adapted to a new one!


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

If pup didn't have any behavioral issues, I'd be 100% positive all the way. It must be interesting to try this new course and new teaching method.
Maybe it works better!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I have done exactly the opposite in the training. My pup is very high energy and we did the positive training with flat collar and she is the only one in that class that is still on a flat collar versus a harness or gentle leader. Now I have dabbled in other drop in classes to try to figure out where I'm going next and both those require prongs, which I got for her but I don't like to use and don't need to use. She is very well behaved when we go to school and I'd have to say about 98% of her training has been positive with food and she can be strong willed


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

go for it, it's always interesting to try new approaches..One warning tho, (and this is from me, who took a Purely Positive training class with masi, BIG MISTAKE!) watch other people's dogs, who seem to let them get away with murder and run rampant in class

The one I took, believe you me, the trainer's dog was the worst one in the class, when ya got a trainer who has a dog that she can't control, well that's rather telling

Good luck! Have fun


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

wildo said:


> That's why I edited it, codmaster. I thought you did make that claim, but then realized you said "often."


 
You edited it before I saw the web site but i did get your email that the site sends out. No problem - we just disagree on methods. Happens a lot among trainers.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

cowboy17 said:


> I have never collar corrected mine.
> 
> Ideally, one shouldn't require a collar correction at all. If you do, you probably set the dog up for failure in the first place.


I'd like to hear more on this. "Ideally" seems to be a pretty key word here. How would it be that a person set the dog up for failure if a collar correction was necessary? How so? Curious.



JakodaCD OA said:


> go for it, it's always interesting to try new approaches..One warning tho, (and this is from me, who took a Purely Positive training class with masi, BIG MISTAKE!) watch other people's dogs, who seem to let them get away with murder and run rampant in class
> 
> The one I took, believe you me, the trainer's dog was the worst one in the class, when ya got a trainer who has a dog that she can't control, well that's rather telling
> 
> Good luck! Have fun


Very telling, indeed if the trainer's dog is no better behaved than the students! 

Miss Molly May, I hope you'll keep updating this thread or start another on how this training works for you. I can't imagine *never* telling a dog so much as no. I am super curious what they advise to do when dealing with an undesirable behavior. I'm even more curious as to how effective it turns out to be!


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

cowboy17 said:


> I have never collar corrected mine.
> 
> Ideally, one shouldn't require a collar correction at all. If you do, you probably set the dog up for failure in the first place.


Excuse me? How are you setting the dog up for failure? I have had MANY wonderful dogs who grew up collar corrected. While I understand there are new and better ways, for many years it was the accepted way to raise a dog and lots of dogs turned out just fine with it.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

shepherdmom said:


> Excuse me? How are you setting the dog up for failure? I have had MANY wonderful dogs who grew up collar corrected. While I understand there are new and better ways, for many years it was the accepted way to raise a dog and lots of dogs turned out just fine with it.


I sure second this shephermom.

I'm all for positive training for as long as it works.

I've raised a bunch of dogs in my life with only a flat collar or choke chain.
That's what we had to use. They all turned out stable wondrful family companions. No matter what tool you use it can be abused.

Some people have a weird idea that correction or compulsion training equals abuse. It doesn't unless your an abusive person.

I'm not suggesting that older training methods are better, just that millions of dogs for hundreds of years did ok with those methods.

With my puppy Zena we are using marker training to teach but I will use a prong collar at times for her.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

cowboy17 said:


> I have never collar corrected mine.
> 
> Ideally, one shouldn't require a collar correction at all. If you do, you probably set the dog up for failure in the first place.


Hmmm, interesting.

I have never been more curious for a further explanation to a post than I am with yours..if you would please explain?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

gsdraven said:


> It doesn't work at all for *some* dogs, *some* behaviors, *some* trainer. That's an interesting "FACT".


 
Thank you!



I wonder what redirection/treat would you use to stop your pet Beagle from chasing rabbits?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Originally Posted by *cowboy17*  
_I have never collar corrected mine.

Ideally, one shouldn't require a collar correction at all. If you do, you probably set the dog up for failure in the first place."_

_Have you ever heard of the concept in dog training of "Proofing"? If not, let me know and I will try to explain it to you._

_It is a major part of having a "reliable" trained dog._


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## Miss Molly May (Feb 19, 2010)

We are starting agility tomorrow with the same trainers I will try getting a better understanding of this method!


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I realize that the OP is keeping an open mind and congratulate him for doing so. There really is a lot to learn. 

However, others on this thread are determined to close their minds and/or perpetuate stereotypes about reward based training. 

From my own experience:

FACTS: Rafi is either a pb mal or a mal x gsd. He has very high play and prey drive. He is a highly intelligent, high-spirited, energetic, joyful, intense and powerful dog. He could have been a disaster with the wrong handler. People on this board have met him and met me. Both of us have strong personalities. Rafi will walk all over someone he doesn't respect and I just might do the same.  


When I adopted him he came with quite a few challenges. He was dog reactive, had poor dog social skills and was impulsive and lacked basic manners. His idea of a good time was grabbing his leash and trying to drag me down the street, jumping up and snapping in my face (excitement) or grabbing toys out of my hand. When we saw other dogs while out walking he would jump straight into the air and bark wildly. Those are just a few of his early challenges. However, he bonded very strongly to me almost immediately (and was just as bonded to his foster dad before me) and I knew that would make it easier to work with him. 

I trained him myself using rewards and re-direction and (in the case of his separation anxiety) counter-conditioning. The rewards started out as food but v. quickly we moved to toys and play. That is still what I use. He is not a robot by any means but he is a very well behaved, playful and happy dog. In other words, he is an excellent companion. 

I can walk him, off leash, past a leashed dog and he will stay by my side. He greets other dogs nicely and with a word or whistle will call out of a dog interaction, off of a bunny or deer chase, etc. He is very, very reliable and is welcome in the homes of all of my family and friends. He will stay with me in my (unfenced) front yard even if his beloved ball or squirrel goes in the street. I can trust him with other dogs, people of all ages and sizes and other animals (he's great with my kittens and was excellent with my very old cat). 

And his favorite reward is to play with me. :wub:

I don't think there are dogs out there who cannot be successfully trained with positive reinforcement and counter-conditioning and re-direction but there are lots of people who aren't cut out for that type of training. And I say that as someone who does sometimes fall back on verbal corrections that really aren't necessary and are sometimes counter-productive.


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

BowWowMeow said:


> I realize that the OP is keeping an open mind and congratulate him for doing so. There really is a lot to learn.
> 
> However, others on this thread are determined to close their minds and/or perpetuate stereotypes about reward based training.
> 
> ...


I completely agree with you in that positive training can do wonders and solve most problems. I agree with you even MORE that it does take skill. I for one, do not have the skills to communicate and redirect to the level needed to make the message clear for my puppy. 

But I also think that for those who CURRENTLY do not have the skills to do it, or are not finding great success at a certain method, there is nothing wrong in using a different one. 

I would like to be purely positive, but cannot use it effectively for the leg biting. I think it would've been to the detriment of our relationship to let it continue on while I tried different ways to communicate and redirect positively, rather than a clear concise correction. 

So I think for those who can use it WELL, positive training is a great great tool. But for those who do not have a clear understanding, become permissive, or have horrible timing and body language, it might not work as well.

But I do think that purely positive is the way to go for all LEARNING.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> I sure second this shephermom.
> 
> I'm all for positive training for as long as it works.
> 
> ...


Zena what an awesome name.  Our Xena lived to be 12.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

BowWowMeow said:


> I realize that the OP is keeping an open mind and congratulate him for doing so. There really is a lot to learn.
> 
> However, others on this thread are determined to close their minds and/or perpetuate stereotypes about reward based training.
> 
> ...


*Congrats on a super job with your dog!*

It does sound like you do not use a PO approach. Are you claiming that all of your corrections are counter productive (or just some of them?).

It would be very interesting if you could say which corrections were counter productive (and whatever you actually mean by that?). Did the correcxtion just not work or did it cause your energetic dog to shut down or resent you or ???

I would also agree that generally a great trainer (of any approach) could probably get good results with almost any dog! Not so much for the rest of us however.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

llombardo said:


> I have done exactly the opposite in the training. My pup is very high energy and we did the positive training with flat collar and she is the only one in that class that is still on a flat collar versus a harness or gentle leader. Now I have dabbled in other drop in classes to try to figure out where I'm going next and both those require prongs, which I got for her but I don't like to use and don't need to use. She is very well behaved when we go to school and I'd have to say about 98% of her training has been positive with food and she can be strong willed


This is me, too. 

Also, Bowwowmeow, I liked your last post. 

I have a prong for Rocket, I've used it just once or twice. I do not walk him on it, I don't take him out in public on it, I use it for a specific situation. I don't think it's wrong to use it, but so far I'm able to convey what I want without it usually. 

He does hear "NO" occasionally in the house, mostly when he tries to climb the ladder up to where his treat basket is. :crazy:


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

I admit I've copied the majority of the following from another site, because it explains it so much bettter than I could. 

As I understand it, the whole idea of positive training is not to try and stop our dogs doing all the things we don't want our dogs to do - e.g. Pull us down the street, run away, raid the trash can, jump up on people etc etc. etc........ but to show them what we do want them to do, in order to live happily with us in our human world. 

It's to work on the reason why dogs do the things they do, and alter their mind set, so we have happy. well balanced, well behaved dogs because it makes us happy - and dogs love to please. 

For instance dominance training treats the action of the dog, but positive training treats the _reason_ for the action. It's the difference between putting a band-aid on the problem and treating/curing the underlying reason for the problem. The thing is that band-aids seem to work at first, but they aren't long term solutions. Eventually the band-aid falls off and the problem is still there, sometimes worse than before. Treating the underlying cause for the action through positive training gives long term results that make for a healthier, happier dog and owner.

For example if a dog is reacting our of fear, and a shock collar is used to stop the dog reacting. It may well stop the dog reacting, but it hasn't stopped him being afraid, it's just that now he is afraid to even let the owner know that he's afraid. Hope that makes sense.

If any emotional in any animal (us too) is suppressed, then it comes out another way, especially if the suppression relies on fear and/or pain. Instead of a dog howling e.g , he might progress to self-mutilation, or stereotypical pacing and circling, or chewing or.....any one of lots of behaviours that are undesirable.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

jakes mom said:


> I admit I've copied the majority of the following from another site, because it explains it so much bettter than I could.
> 
> As I understand it, the whole idea of positive training is not to try and stop our dogs doing all the things we don't want our dogs to do - e.g. Pull us down the street, run away, raid the trash can, jump up on people etc etc. etc........ but to show them what we do want them to do, in order to live happily with us in our human world.
> 
> ...


 
So then how does one redirect a dog from doing an action that he really likes to do ("self rewarding" in layman's terms) in prefernce to anything that his owner can offer? 

I have never heard a good explanation of this question from any PO advocate except "Higher Value" - could it be possible in at least a few cases that there is no "higher value" thing to offer?

Then do we just let the dog do his thing? Or maybe just "Avoid the temptation".

I.E. if we want the dog to "leave something on the floor alone"; we just don't put it on the floor to begin with????

Because in PO, my understanding is that I am not allowed to tell the dog "NO", or give him a little "Tug" on the leash to indicate that the dog is not supposed to grab the thing on the floor, correct? This correction would ruin the bond between my dog and me and/or destroy his pscycological well being or cause his trust in me to disappear?


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

codmaster said:


> I.E. if we want the dog to "leave something on the floor alone"; we just don't put it on the floor to begin with????
> 
> Because in PO, my understanding is that I am not allowed to tell the dog "NO", or give him a little "Tug" on the leash to indicate that the dog is not supposed to grab the thing on the floor, correct? *This correction would ruin the bond between my dog and me and/or destroy his pscycological well being or cause his trust in me to disappear?*


You teach the dog to leave things alone that are not his. This can be done through teaching leave it and take it. Not sure exactly how a tug on the leash _teaches_ a dog that something on the floor is off limits. And your last sentence is just ridiculous. As has been pointed out many times, you do not understand positive training and instead of constantly trying to argue that it doesn't work, how about taking a class under those methods and simply trying it out or reading up on it.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

I like a good mix. I feel that a good helicopter really reminds a dog its place.

JK JK  
Do I need a disclaimer as well? I do not helicopter my dog unless he's attached to me by a tug in his mouth lol

But really though, what's wrong with having a good mix of +R for teaching behaviors, then using corrections when the dog refuses the behavior, at which point he performs the behavior and gets rewarded for it? Something like NePoPo training (look it up, its a real term that stands for Negative-Positive-Positive)? Why does it have to be so black and white?


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## Chance&Reno (Feb 21, 2012)

ayoitzrimz said:


> I like a good mix. I feel that a good helicopter really reminds a dog its place.
> 
> JK JK
> Do I need a disclaimer as well? I do not helicopter my dog unless he's attached to me by a tug in his mouth lol
> ...


I agree.

The sign of a good trainer is one who is always continuing their education, thinking outside of the box, attempting different, HUMANE methods, having an open mind and not bashing other forms of training just because they don't understand it or have a closed mind. 

I am a +R teacher, BUT I have also used Prong and Chokes on certain dogs that needed more than just a treat. I don't bribe my students or my dogs using food. They have to earn it. I have used this as a rehabilitation technique for DA/HA and I find it successful. I have the ability to do so. If I find that method may not work with a particular dog, I'm going to reach in my magic bag and pull out something else. Being closed minded to a form of training because you are stubborn is not the mark of a good trainer/instructor. I stress this with my staff. I have continuing education for all of my instructors, that way they keep up with the times and are more flexable, I require it and it's in the job description!


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

Chance&Reno said:


> I agree.
> 
> The sign of a good trainer is one who is always continuing their education, thinking outside of the box, attempting different, HUMANE methods, having an open mind and not bashing other forms of training just because they don't understand it or have a closed mind.
> 
> I am a +R teacher, BUT I have also used Prong and Chokes on certain dogs that needed more than just a treat. I don't bribe my students or my dogs using food. They have to earn it. I have used this as a rehabilitation technique for DA/HA and I find it successful. I have the ability to do so. If I find that method may not work with a particular dog, I'm going to reach in my magic bag and pull out something else. Being closed minded to a form of training because you are stubborn is not the mark of a good trainer/instructor. I stress this with my staff. I have continuing education for all of my instructors, that way they keep up with the times and are more flexable, I require it and it's in the job description!


Where the "LIKE" button, for both this post and *ayoitzrimz*'s post!! 

The Bunny is a thinking, handler sensitive dog. I can train her VERY positively. She values interaction and approval. Time Outs mean something to her. For example last week she wanted to go outside....not because she needed to pee or anything, but because Ianna was already out there and she wanted to be out too. She was repeatedly leaping 6' in the air and body slamming the back door. I told her "PLATZ" and got no response. Took her by her flat collar and put her back in her crate....counted to 10 and let her out again. Same thing, but less forceful, and no response to PLATZ. Repeated the time out. Counted to 10, released her from the crate, she ran to the back door and hit the deck, looking back over her shoulder like "NOW please open the door???" A week later and all I have to say is a quiet "platz" and she hits the deck instead of body slamming the door. 

I could have repeated that correction ALL DAY with Mike and it would not have made that kind of impression on him. He just doesn't think the same way she does. I can smack him on the head and he looks at me like "YES? were you talking to me?" A smack on the head would make Bunny look at me with huge eyes, like "OMG WHAT???" Related dogs, but very different!


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## ShatteringGlass (Jun 1, 2006)

I personally wouldn't go to a trainer who limits their training methods. I use what works for each individual dog. Same way I wouldn't go to a trainer who doesn't use ANY rewards or positive reinforcement, I wouldn't go to one who doesn't use some kind of negative reinforcement.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

ShatteringGlass said:


> I personally wouldn't go to a trainer who limits their training methods. I use what works for each individual dog. Same way I wouldn't go to a trainer who doesn't use ANY rewards or positive reinforcement, I wouldn't go to one who doesn't use some kind of negative reinforcement.


Same here. And going to someone with extreme closed-minded views just brings out my argumentative side anyway!!


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## Miss Molly May (Feb 19, 2010)

The class tonight was allot of fun and very interesting Molly seem to really enjoy it! I did get told a few times about saying AH, Hey and no! Its a bit of a learning curve but I think she will do very well with this method!


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

So glad the class is fun for Molly.
Old habits die hard for us humans. Hope you'll both catch on soon.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Miss Molly May said:


> The class tonight was allot of fun and very interesting Molly seem to really enjoy it! *I did get told a few times about saying AH, Hey and no!* Its a bit of a learning curve but I think she will do very well with this method!


What did they advise you to do in place of the AGH, Hey, No ??? What was the "undesirable" behavior? I need details.  Enquiring minds want to know. :laugh:

I'm open to all kinds of training methods, but a little stubborn on any method that is ALL one way or another. Seems too rigid.


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## cowboy17 (Sep 26, 2011)

Courtney said:


> Hmmm, interesting.
> 
> I have never been more curious for a further explanation to a post than I am with yours..if you would please explain?


Pretty simple explanation and not much to it.
I have a $2.99 flat collar. Have not used a choker and don't plan on it.
Spent the last 3 months imprinting with NO corrections such as collar pops. When he follows me he gets treats. When he looks at me he gets treats. NO commands for any of this.
I do use a verbal "ah-ah" to mark where he went wrong but no collar discipline.

In terms of setting up to fail....
If I let him in the house and he goes to chew on a shoe, that is my fault. I can't correct him for that. I set him up to fail.
If I am walking with him and his attention focuses on another dog, that is my fault for not redirecting him sooner and I can't correct him for it.
If he is in the house and chases the cat, I can't correct him for that, I let the cat into the room in the first place, or didn't have the dog crated. I set him up to fail.

As for proofing. Imprinting takes time, and if done well, will proof every time. (as example, if another dog is approaching, he will look at me for instruction and generally sits and stares at me wating for the treat to pop out of my mouth)


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

cowboy17 said:


> Pretty simple explanation and not much to it.
> I have a $2.99 flat collar. Have not used a choker and don't plan on it.
> Spent the last 3 months imprinting with NO corrections such as collar pops. When he follows me he gets treats. When he looks at me he gets treats. NO commands for any of this.
> I do use a verbal "ah-ah" to mark where he went wrong but no collar discipline.
> ...


Are you really serious? 

I am guessing that you practice "Positive Only" appraoch - that is what the local advocates have told me - don't correct a dog for bad behavior, just remove the temptation (i.e. don't leave something good to eat anywhere the dog can see/get it! 

Otherwise you have "set him up to fail" and it is your (the owner) fault!

Ridiculous! That is NOT TRAINING - Only a poor form of mismanagement!

In your example above - what the heck would your dog do if "a dog approaches" and you are not there?????

Why not train him to just ignore another dog or to ignore good things to eat left on the counter???

Or even, believe it or not, train him to ignore the cat and just coexist with the cat!

Do you really believe that it is impossible to teach a dog to do these things?

If you do believe this, then please contact any compentent trainer to help you train your dog.

It may take a little time but it is entirely possible to actually TRAIN a dog to obey even if you are not physically there.


BTW what in the world do you refer to as "Imprinting"? It certainly is not Training, so i am curious as to what you are referring to by the term?????


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

chelle said:


> What did they advise you to do in place of the AGH, Hey, No ??? What was the "undesirable" behavior? I need details.  Enquiring minds want to know. :laugh:
> 
> I'm open to all kinds of training methods, but a little stubborn on any method that is ALL one way or another. Seems too rigid.


 
Sounds like maybe the instructor wanted the OP to *reason *with the dog to convince (ask nicely with "please"?) them to do what they are asked to do? Heh! Heh! Heh!


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

codmaster- you're exhausting on this subject.

[EDIT]- I'll elaborate. You always try to counter with extremism. 



codmaster said:


> Do you really believe that it is impossible to teach a dog to do these things?


The person you quoted was explaining what "setting up for failure" meant to them. They made no claims of how they train "leave it" and if they think "leave it" is impossible to train. Why do you have to be so counter-productive with false reasoning? Why is it such a big deal to you if people train differently from yourself? Why do you have to attack the idea EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. it's posted??


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

wildo said:


> codmaster- you're exhausting on this subject.
> 
> [EDIT]- I'll elaborate. You always try to counter with extremism.
> 
> ...


Thank you!

And I was trying to explain the concept of "Proofing" as I understand it and have used it; and that until you can do that, then your dog is not trained.

So to try again to explain why "Proofing" is important - if your dog doesn't obey under a heavy distraction, TO ME the dog is not trained and reliable. If I have to avoid a situation, i.e. a cat (note this is from the OP message) then the dog has not been trained to avoid the cat and obey under a distraction. HENCE - not "PROOFED"!

Better?

BTW, anyone can train anyway and to any degree that they want to - wouldn't you also agree with that idea? Even me?

One can train their dog anyway they see fit and if they can't or do not want to "Proof" their behavior, then of course one can just manage their behavior by simply removing any distractions that one can or just don't "set him up to fail" by bringing them around any temptations! Sounds simple enough!


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

codmaster said:


> And I was trying to explain the concept of "Proofing" as I understand it and have used it; *and that until you can do that, then your dog is not trained.*


All training is management. Why get caught up with that? Even correction-based trainers don't start training a "sit" under high distraction. They use management. Well-they manipulate the environment, which is management. A trainer should be able to manipulate the environment in a way that removes distractions until the dog is properly executing the behavior. Then the trainer should start bringing in distractions. And once again- it would be foolish of the trainer to bring in the _highest_ distraction they can think of all at once; that serves nothing. Training is absolutely about management. 

And proofing is not a one-time event that allows you to dub a dog "trained." There will almost certainly be _something_ out there that will distract the dog. For example, a person's dog may "sit" under many distractions- but perhaps if they were to take the dog to an airplane show and ask for a "sit" right as a fighter jet flies over breaking the sound barrier just tens of feet above the dog's head- perhaps the dog may not sit. Are they then dubbed "untrained" because proofing failed? Certainly not. They're still trained to sit- it's just that training and distraction proofing never ends... 

I don't understand the need to call the dog "untrained" because he isn't proofed. No... it's all about a running total in my opinion. There is no 'end point' in training; training continues for the life of the animal. A dog may be trained while not proofed.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

cowboy17 said:


> As for proofing. Imprinting takes time, and if done well, will proof every time. (as example, if another dog is approaching, he will look at me for instruction and generally sits and stares at me wating for the treat to pop out of my mouth)


 
Imprinting takes place when the dogs are a very young age and has nothing to do with training.  What you're referring to is a type of conditioning and training.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Whiteshepherds said:


> Imprinting takes place when the dogs are a very young age and has nothing to do with training.  What you're referring to is a type of conditioning and training.


Thanks for the explanation.


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## Miss Molly May (Feb 19, 2010)

We have now been 6 classes (2 on Tuesday and 1 on Thursday) and it is going really well. I am starting to get a grasp of this method. Basically all you do is get your dog attention with a valuable toy or treat. The instructors I am working with want the dog to focus just on you and nothing else they have us doing tons of focus exercises in class and at home. Molly's focus has improved greatly! I haven't said "no" or gave her a leash correction since we have started and the training is proving to be successful!


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

Way to go.


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## cowboy17 (Sep 26, 2011)

Miss Molly May said:


> We have now been 6 classes (2 on Tuesday and 1 on Thursday) and it is going really well. I am starting to get a grasp of this method. Basically all you do is get your dog attention with a valuable toy or treat. The instructors I am working with want the dog to focus just on you and nothing else they have us doing tons of focus exercises in class and at home. Molly's focus has improved greatly! I haven't said "no" or gave her a leash correction since we have started and the training is proving to be successful!


That's GREAT to hear.
Focus and engagement are the base for succes.


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