# Working with Ike on the "Hold"



## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

This is where we are right now in our retrieve training. Mostly working on getting a good solid hold and getting him to move around freely with the dowel in his mouth. The teaching of the static hold took awhile but I think he's starting to get the idea.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

That looks great Jason!! Ike is doing really well!

Training question...Do you find that Ike gives you more problems holding the dowel when he has it further back in his mouth? I noticed on the one side shot that he looks like he prefers to carry the dowel in the back. Someone once told me to try and teach the hold right behind the canines because they were less likely to chew. I was wondering if that was true for you?

By the way...maybe you could get an electrician in to check the wiring on that off switch?  (He looks like a LOT of fun!)


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

When I put the dowel in, I try to put it right behind the canines and have him really clamp down on the dowel but his problem right now is with panting. Once he starts panting, then he seems to want to carry the dowel further back (maybe to keep his mouth open so he can keep breathing through his mouth). I don't know ... I need to teach him how to breath through his nose. I don't know if panting is viewed to be the same as chewing - but once he starts panting, the hold predictably starts to break down.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Nice!!! Super foundation for a good, calm, solid hold! His OB will be a joy to see when you get to trial with him. He is just so happy and eager to please you.

I'm a bit surprised that you let him drop the dowel for the tug? One thing that I'm careful with when I dog dowel/Dumbell work, is that I never let my dog drop the dowel/dumbbell. Of course, in the beginning, they sometimes do, but not because I want them to. If they do drop it, no big deal, I pick it up and try again. They have to hold, and release when I tell them to. I use "give" for a command. I trick them too by putting both hands on the dumbbell, but not ask for a give, so they have to hold until I do say give.

I just wonder if letting him drop the dowel for a reward, if later on that would give you issues? Never tried it your way, so don't know. 

Love the last little bit!!! too cute, and very much like a certain sable that I know, LOL.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Lucia, I was thinking about that. The marker word I use is "Yes". I use it as a terminal bridge/marker so it's also his release word. That's why you see when he hears the word "yes", he drops the dowel. If he were to drop to dowel before I give me the marker, then I would say "no" and go immediately to put the dowel in his mouth. So he does know not to drop it until given permission. My plan now is to start bringing out his reward (food/tug), wave it around while he is still holding the dowel and proof him against it so he understands when he can drop the dowel and when he can't. I've seen it done both ways, with an "out" before the marker/click and without. I think Denise and Liesje, who have both posted videos of training the hold with young dogs, do it without ... although the way I taught the hold with Ike is different than the way Denise did with Malakai and Lies with Nikon (my was a mandatory hold as opposed to a free shaping hold)


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I don't have sound on, I didn't hear the Yes, but that makes sense too! Ike seems to really understand the hold at this point, probably won't have any issues to bring in the longer holds. 

Funny though how each dog learns best in a different manner. I was getting a lot of trouble getting Gryff to open his mouth and take the dowel. I was using gentle force, but didn't want to push it, and he was dealing with the stress by tuning me out. So I changed tactics.

I called Keeta over and started doing dowel work with her, spitting wiener bits at her as a reward. Gryff was pushing his way in, wanting to be part of the fun, but I kept pushing him away, turning my back to him, fussing over Keeta and what a great job she was doing. So finally I turned to Gryff and held the dowel out to him, and he took it in his mouth (wasn't holding it yet, but openend his mouth and put his mouth on the dowel), looking at me with a hopeful expression that he was doing it right! Of course he was, and he got a wiener bit too! Sometimes a little competition for attention can do wonders, LOL!


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

It's funny how each dog learns differently. 

I knew I wanted to go through the process of teaching the retrieve myself and not just have a forced retrieve put on him when he is older - so I started researching and asking people about how to teach it and everyone told me the easiest way is free shape it with a clicker. Well, people who recommended that have obviously not met Ike because Ike is about as un-operant of a dog as they come. Give an operant dog a puzzle and he will try something and if that doesn't work, he will try something ELSE. Give Ike a puzzle and he will try something and if that doesn't work, he will try the same thing AGAIN, AGAIN, and AGAIN until he works himself into a frenzy (that or he will just try to eat the puzzle ...). 

So after weeks of getting nowhere with freeshaping, I changed tactic too and used Ivan Balabanov/Michael Ellis method of just sticking the dowel in his mouth and hold his big mouth shut with my hands and then gradually over time lessen my hand pressure against his muzzle (and marking/rewarding him for any tightening of the jaw muscle) until he was hold the dowel by himself. And if he drops it, immediately put the dowel back in and start over. Just basically telling him: "I know you don't like it, but - guess what - you have to do it." That method worked so much better with Ike. I think it was a relief to him to be told what he needs to do with the dowel. He was like: "Ohhhh ... so that was what you wanted me to do with the wooden stick. Why didn't you just tell me that from the beginning?"

Some dogs are problem solvers ... some just follow orders


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

I really appreciate you taking the time to produce the video and the thread discussion.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Ike is an awesome dog you have done an amazing job with him!! I like his crazy mode too,lol reminds me of my crazy girl and makes me feel better


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> I'm a bit surprised that you let him drop the dowel for the tug? One thing that I'm careful with when I dog dowel/Dumbell work, is that I never let my dog drop the dowel/dumbbell.


When I trained Nikon, dropping was OK as long as the dog was marked/clicked. In this situation, that mark/click ends the behavior. Since my dog was willing to drop the dumbbell to earn the reward (and I've never had problems with him dropping it prematurely) I started saying "aus" and taking it pretty quickly just for the fact that I already have joint problems in my toe and a dowel constantly dropping on it is painful. But, there were several times when *I* didn't catch it and I would not hold that against the dog. I did not do "drive building" FOR my dowel (like backtying the dog or playing tug with it) and we never had issues with outs with retrieves so I may just be lucky there but we added that in pretty quick. I entirely freeshaped my retrieve by backchaining and it took over 4 months from the dog touching his nose to the dowel to the dog doing his first retrieve on the flat and I don't ever recall having a dumbbell dropped prematurely.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Well, Ike is not dropping the dowel but the two problems I am running into right now are:

- Panting. Ike is an incorrigible mouth breather. Now I know he knows how to breath through his nose because he does it when there is a sleeve in his mouth. I don't see him spitting the sleeve out because he can't breath lol. But with a dowel/pvc, he just does not take it seriously enough to really really clamp down. He is not chewing it but I don't like the fact the dowel/pvc "vibrates" like that when he is holding it.

- somewhat related to the panting ... when he moves, he loosens his grip and then when he comes to a stop, he tightens it (I think because he knows I check his grip when he stops lol).

He is still very very young (as Samba often reminds me) so hopefully things will tighten up - literally and figuratively - when he gets older. But how do you go about getting a dog to really really clamp down the dumbbell. I know you can do it in forced retrieve but how about motivationally? Does the dog know the difference between holding so the object does not move vs. holding tight so that the object CANNOT move?


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Have you put any pressure on the object while in his mouth?

I am using an AKC DB right now. If I put pressure on either end of it, Hogan has learned to hold on tight. At first I could dislodge it and he got the non-reward marker and do over. I also worked hard to correctly mark any moment of biting down. The head muscles move when they do it. Also, much like my father opening his mouth when giving us medicine, I clamp my own teeth down like heck when teaching hold! I am not sure if this helps but if modeling behavior is of any use, I am using it.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Pressure as in pulling the string on the dowel to challenge his grip? I've done it with the dowel but not the pvc. With the pvc, I just tap the ends the pipe. Is that what you mean?


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Does he grip it then?


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Yes. As soon as he sees that I am about to test him, he will grip down and the panting will stop. And then I take my hand away and the panting starts and the pvc starts to vibrates so I am assuming the grip loosens.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Samba said:


> Also, much like my father opening his mouth when giving us medicine, I clamp my own teeth down like heck when teaching hold! I am not sure if this helps but if modeling behavior is of any use, I am using it.


Ok, never in my wildest dream would I think to try that! So, of course, I am going to try that tonight. Heck, if I have to put a pvc in my mouth to teach Ike to clamp down, I will!


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Please video!


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

...and you say good, good, while he holds down on it with your hand on it? 

He responds when you say "hold" by clamping down? Is the "hold" on cue yet?


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

He still needs a little help from me (hands on his muzzle at the start) so the "hold" is not on cue yet. Got to work on that.


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

Very nice!


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## Achielles UD (May 26, 2001)

Hey Jason! I was just wondering how things were going with his dumbbell work?


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Per Samba's suggestion I've decided to take a few steps back and really work on getting a hard, solid clamp from him from a stationary position. So I have changed the way I set up the exercise and also my criteria. Now I just put the PVC pipe in his mouth and I am not putting my hand on his muzzle at all and at the command "hold" I am looking for him to clamp down on his own. 

I've also started to showing him his reward food or toy while he is holding the PVC. That fact that he wants to let go of the dowel to get his food/toy BUT he knows that he shouldn't ... that seems to make him be a little bit more serious about the hold. Anyway, right now all I want is a good hold with ZERO movement of the dowel, not even a quick re-adjustment or re-grip. And none of that panting shenanigans.

He is 11 months right now and I'm finding that I've to go back a few steps on a lot of his obedience. As he gets more fluent in them, he seems to also get sloppier and start to take the little things for granted. I guess that's entirely normal and to be expected.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Jason, 

I am working on the hold with Bison right now too. I was having a similar problem. I started training him with a small DB that I found at a local pet store. I used the clicker like Lies described. He alternated between having it too far back in his mouth and having it rest lightly right behind his canines. Then when he would pant and the DB would roll in his mouth. Apparently, he thought that was cool, because he started rolling it on purpose. I tried clicking when it was still or when he actually clamped down but that backfired because he then started to bite down HARD and ended up biting through the DB handle. (He has some mighty chompers)

When working on this on a club day (to get some advice), we brought out the standard size DB and without any additional training he held it perfectly. It must have been something with the weight and larger size of the handle. He has no problems with holding it now. 

I also picked up a training DB that has a spongy grip and pulls so you can offer resistance if they get loose on the hold. Seems to be working well so far, but I will let you know if it creates any problems as we continue. 

Here is a link since I probably didn’t describe the training DB well http://www.dogsportgear.com/Sport_training_dumbbell.html


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Amy, thanks for the link. I like the dumbbell there. Almost looks like a toy! Too funny about Bison breaking the practice DB! Only Bison ... 

I don't think I'll have him on the dumbbell for awhile because the hold is still not super solid and the way I am doing it has a bit of mild compulsion (his hold is not shaped with a clicker. Rather I just put it in his mouth and make him hold it) so I don't want him to sour on the dumbbell. He can sour on the PVC pipe all he wants ... makes no difference to me


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Jason L said:


> Amy, thanks for the link. I like the dumbbell there. Almost looks like a toy! Too funny about Bison breaking the practice DB! Only Bison ...
> 
> I don't think I'll have him on the dumbbell for awhile because the hold is still not super solid and the way I am doing it has a bit of mild compulsion (his hold is not shaped with a clicker. Rather I just put it in his mouth and make him hold it) so I don't want him to sour on the dumbbell. He can sour on the PVC pipe all he wants ... makes no difference to me


That completely makes sense. I wonder if you fill the PVC with something heavy and cap it off with tape if it would help him hold it still. Dowel and PVC are both pretty light compared to a DB.



> Too funny about Bison breaking the practice DB! Only Bison ...


 Yeah, only my knuckle head!


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