# Aggression and stuff about my dog



## lalachka

From the other thread 

Gtf, it wasn't a club that evaluated him. I didn't go there yet. I asked my trainer to eval him. My trainer competes nationally and I'd say def knows what he's doing. He also hosts a club though not taking any members now (or didn't want my dog)

In any case, I'm having a hard time dismissing what he says. I might still go for the eval and the club already told me they Will take him. They said any dog can do some parts. It is expensive, $500 down and $100 a month. So if anything, I'd be more inclined to ignore their eval because they'd tell me things I want to hear to get me to join. 

My trainer isn't gaining or losing anything. 

But my dog has nerve issues. There is no way around it. I can dance around and make excuses but there's no reason for him to bark at people. He barks at someone almost every day. He barks at every dog. 

My trainer saw him react to a dog and said It was defense, so fear but I already knew that. 

I'm almost sure he reacts to people out of fear too. 

The reason I'm trying to understand what drives his reactions is because I don't want to punish fear. I'm confused. 

Also, I can't correct him hard enough. Once he goes into a fit he doesn't feel anything. 

Even if he wants to sniff something really bad or pull - I can yank all I want, total ignore. 


If he's fear aggressive or insecure then where's this hardness coming from? How does he take all this pain and ignore it? Or he can be nervy and hard at the same time?


I'm soo confused if it's not obvious 


One more thing. I know I should catch the reaction before it happens (optimally) but since I've missed a few I think now I might be popping him thinking he was about to react and he wasn't. 
So unfair again


----------



## DJEtzel

He can absolutely be nervy and hard. I have a nervy/hard dog and a nervy/soft dog. Then there's patty. 

Have you tried look at that training? I never corrected Frag for reactivity towards dogs when he was young (he never reacted towards people) and used LAT instead with fantastic results. Now he's a demo dog for my classes and attends dog events and festivals frequently with no issues.


----------



## lalachka

DJEtzel said:


> He can absolutely be nervy and hard. I have a nervy/hard dog and a nervy/soft dog. Then there's patty.
> 
> Have you tried look at that training? I never corrected Frag for reactivity towards dogs when he was young (he never reacted towards people) and used LAT instead with fantastic results. Now he's a demo dog for my classes and attends dog events and festivals frequently with no issues.


I have looked into it and dabbled a little. He's ok if the dog is 5 ft away. He's not ok but I can say no before the reaction and he doesn't react. Anything closer - nope. 

Also, I don't have dogs to practice on. Usually we see a dog and go the other way. Or they walk up on us and then he lunges.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Look at that has really helped with Grim. He used to bark at everyone and every dog. We practice it every day on every walk unless we are in the forest up north.


----------



## llombardo

I got my dog evaluated for free at the GSD club. Do you have one of those? You have to figure out what to work on first, people or dogs, even though it will be almost the same kind of conditioning. I would prefer a dog to be dog aggressive versus human aggressive. What kind of prong are you using, the bigger or smaller links? First, you have to realize he might not ever change but managed. To ignore and tolerate. What would your dog do if a person of dog got right in front of him? Attack, cower, ignore?


----------



## lalachka

People for sure. There was a period when he didn't react to people. I don't know if my training worked or it was a coincidence but it was amazing. Then he got into a fight with a dog and again, not sure, coincidence or not, he started back again

If a person stands in front of him - not sure. We never got there. He lunges at whoever might be approaching so we never get to that point. I'd say cower based on what happened today


----------



## lalachka

I don't need him evaluated anymore. I saw all I needed to see today. I will ask my trainer some questions but as far as I'm concerned he's fear aggressive


----------



## lalachka

glowingtoadfly said:


> Look at that has really helped with Grim. He used to bark at everyone and every dog. We practice it every day on every walk unless we are in the forest up north.


I will give it an honest try 

I'm a little down. I didn't learn anything new but I'm starting to realize I can never trust him off leash. That's not the end of the world but it is hard to exercise him dragging a 30 ft. Recipe for disaster


----------



## glowingtoadfly

It's hard without a yard in NYC, I'm sure! Just socializing Grim at training has helped him a lot.


----------



## llombardo

Have you tried going somewhere where people are and you can start at a good distance? Maybe sit on a park bench and keep his focus on you with someone 50 ft away, after a week or so 30 ft away,etc. Your job is to keep him focused on you with obedience, focus, leave its, etc. if he is focused on you he won't even realize someone is walking past until they are past him. I would set a goal of something like 5 people 50 ft away, then 5 at 40 ft, 3 at 40 ft,etc. Once he does it don't push it, walk away. Set him up to succeed.


----------



## lalachka

Yeah that's what I did originally to get him to stop reacting. Used to stand at a busy bus stop. 

I still do it. Problem is that as long as people are ignoring him He ignores them. We play every day on a small patch of grass next to a busy road and building and people. Ignores everything. But let someone say he's cute.


----------



## lalachka

Hold on, I have a video of us waking the streets and you will see how close people are. I make him sit 5000 times, don't mind. Was trying something


----------



## llombardo

But you probably shouldn't start somewhere that has lots of people. You need to find a place in a calm setting that people pass by every so often. Your setting him up to fail if you think he is nervy and you throw him into an area that us hustling and bustling.


----------



## lalachka

Here. It's long but ignore most of it. Also you will see my bus stop there

2014-06-22 Boomer walking around the block: http://youtu.be/1QzFrGDJaK0


----------



## lalachka

llombardo said:


> But you probably shouldn't start somewhere that has lots of people. You need to find a place in a calm setting that people pass by every so often. Your setting him up to fail if you think he is nervy and you throw him into an area that us hustling and bustling.


But he does fine there. He doesn't react. Watch the first minute. See how many people are there and how close they are. 

He reacts when someone approaches. It can be in a busy street, my building, my staircase, someone coming from nowhere, someone coming up to him.


----------



## llombardo

I don't see a dog that is afraid at all. He looked at people, ignored the ad carry on. I know when my dog was reactive it was at everything, not just here and there. This was a decent walk without issue, so I'm not to sure its fear. Maybe someone else sees something I don't.


----------



## lalachka

Yeah he didn't react there. Then 2 mins later he barked and lunged at my neighbor. That's not on the video 

So he can be around people like this and he will even play with me but then something sets him off. 

Also, on the video, at some point I say nope, he was about to react there. At least that's what I thought.


----------



## lalachka

This is why it's hard for me to fix it. With dogs it's easier. Any dog will set him off. So we are working on that but it's been a year. Not much progress and I'm sure I suck at it


----------



## JakodaCD OA

Ok I watched the whoooole thing I don't see a dog who is afraid or people reactive in the video..He wasn't stressed , he walked well, and ignored people, minded his own business.

At the 3 minute range, I did see him perk up, focus on something? Maybe another dog? Like "alert"?? When you see another dog in the distance or near you, predict that behavior, and use a good LEAVE IT, BEFORE he focus's in on something like another dog..LEAVE IT and continue on, no big deal.

Like lombardo I don't see a thing wrong with his behavior in that video..He doesn't have to like ANYONE but YOU, he doesn't have to interact with ANYONE but YOU, he just has to mind his own business and that's what he did.

I see he likes carrying a stick, maybe get a special toy, have him 'carry it' on his walks..

I do not see any "fearful behavior" in that video.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

you posted when I did.. Just keep your distance from other dogs,,probably hard in your area, but if you see a dog, TURN AROUND, get him to refocus on YOU, LEAVE IT< TURN AROUND, LETS GO..and GO..I think having him 'carry' something, might be a good thing to.


----------



## lalachka

JakodaCD OA said:


> Ok I watched the whoooole thing I don't see a dog who is afraid or people reactive in the video..He wasn't stressed , he walked well, and ignored people, minded his own business.
> 
> At the 3 minute range, I did see him perk up, focus on something? Maybe another dog? Like "alert"?? When you see another dog in the distance or near you, predict that behavior, and use a good LEAVE IT, BEFORE he focus's in on something like another dog..LEAVE IT and continue on, no big deal.
> 
> Like lombardo I don't see a thing wrong with his behavior in that video..He doesn't have to like ANYONE but YOU, he doesn't have to interact with ANYONE but YOU, he just has to mind his own business and that's what he did.
> 
> I see he likes carrying a stick, maybe get a special toy, have him 'carry it' on his walks..
> 
> I do not see any "fearful behavior" in that video.


Omg that's almost like watching paint dry lol

no, if it was another dog you'd see a blow up. it was a person. either they were looking at him or walking towards him, I don't remember. 

I do bring toys but he spits them out after a while. and yes, loves sticks. wouldn't give it up. he does now 

I don't need him to interact with anyone, I'm totally fine and would rather actually him just ignore people. 

problem is that he does react sometimes. and I can't think of the reason being anything other than fear. 

I do exactly what you said, try to predict the reaction and say NO. it works most of the time. sometimes I don't notice it early enough. 


I walk while staring at him. so when I say I don't notice it it's not because I'm looking the other way, it's because I couldn't recognize the reaction coming fast enough


----------



## llombardo

lalachka said:


> Yeah he didn't react there. Then 2 mins later he barked and lunged at my neighbor. That's not on the video
> 
> So he can be around people like this and he will even play with me but then something sets him off.
> 
> Also, on the video, at some point I say nope, he was about to react there. At least that's what I thought.


So I would think a pop of the leash and a no and you keep moving forward with all the confidence you got.


----------



## llombardo

JakodaCD OA said:


> you posted when I did.. Just keep your distance from other dogs,,probably hard in your area, but if you see a dog, TURN AROUND, get him to refocus on YOU, LEAVE IT< TURN AROUND, LETS GO..and GO..I think having him 'carry' something, might be a good thing to.


I did use a ball for Midnite sometimes. Do you think that if a dog is fearful it will be fearful at all times? Is fear aggression hit or miss?


----------



## lalachka

JakodaCD OA said:


> you posted when I did.. Just keep your distance from other dogs,,probably hard in your area, but if you see a dog, TURN AROUND, get him to refocus on YOU, LEAVE IT< TURN AROUND, LETS GO..and GO..I think having him 'carry' something, might be a good thing to.


we do lol. sometimes no matter how hard i try they come out of nowhere 
I already walk like a spy lol, make him sit before any blind spots and I walk ahead and look but with the sidewalks being as small as they are and buildings and houses everywhere sometimes we bump into dogs. 

any reaction is a set back as you know and we have quite a few


----------



## lalachka

llombardo said:


> So I would think a pop of the leash and a no and you keep moving forward with all the confidence you got.


That's what we do now. problem is, if he's already in the mode it's not a pop on the leash, it takes yanking a few times and him lunging and standing on his back feet and bending. just ugly


----------



## llombardo

lalachka said:


> That's what we do now. problem is, if he's already in the mode it's not a pop on the leash, it takes yanking a few times and him lunging and standing on his back feet and bending. just ugly


I know I've been there. Part of the training problem is you, just like it was me. You most likely tense up and expect the worse . Take a deep breath, give yourself a pep talk and go. If he gets to the point of lunging and all that stuff, you need to be able to keep walking of go the other way with him with you. Don't worry what other people are thinking.


----------



## lalachka

llombardo said:


> I know I've been there. Part of the training problem is you, just like it was me. You most likely tense up and expect the worse . Take a deep breath, give yourself a pep talk and go. If he gets to the point of lunging and all that stuff, you need to be able to keep walking of go the other way with him with you. Don't worry what other people are thinking.


I don't care about people and I'm pretty calm because i know I can control him (thank the prong lol) but I'm sure I give him some cues. I'm trying to watch myself to control what I give off. 
I just yank yank while walking the other way. just feel bad that he has to go through this violence. even if he doesn't feel the pain at that moment I must be doing some damage.


----------



## llombardo

lalachka said:


> I don't lol and I'm pretty calm because i know I can control him (thank the prong lol) but I'm sure I give him some cues. I'm trying to watch myself to control what I give off.
> 
> most of his problems, if not all, were created by me. I'm learning on him and he has been very forgiving of all the dumbness I've done to him


Are you using large links or small links for the prong? How old is he?


----------



## lalachka

small. I'd say a micro prong 

http://leerburg.com/hermsprenger_BlackStainlesssteel_prongcollars.htm

small


----------



## llombardo

I don't know what to tell you. I do not see a fearful dog. Are there any GSD clubs around you?


----------



## JakodaCD OA

I do think fear aggression can be hit or miss..As I think in some cases downright aggression can be hit or miss as well.

In this case tho, since I have not seen the dog in person,,is it fear aggression? aggression? a case of he just downright doesn't like something about certain people? people staring at a dog can be perceived as a threat in some cases, someone coming at them full boar, confident in stature can be perceived as a threat..

I had a fear biter, years ago..This gsd was BIG, if someone he didn't know or was not real familiar with walked in my house, he would go right up to them barking, if they ignored him totally, in 2 minutes he'd be fine,,if you (person coming in) put their hand out for him to sniff it, (like they tell people to do!), he'd sniff it, when you pulled your hand back, he'd nail you and back off..Never broke the skin on anyone, but he did 'nip' a couple of guys thru the years..that failed to take my IGNORE the DOG seriously. 

I wouldn't say mine was 'fear aggressive',,he could go out in public, as long as he was left alone, he didn't lunge at people or just nail someone nilly willy..I would label him a fear biter tho.

I would wonder lalachka what yours would do if he did get face to face/nose to nose with another dog? one that's he barking at? and if he lunged at the neighbor, do you think he would have nailed him if he could? downright attacked him?? 

Obviously we can't set those scenerio's up, but just curious what you think he would actually do, what he would follow thru with...


----------



## JakodaCD OA

Isn't suzanne clothier in New York? She would be someone I'd have evaluate him..


----------



## Skywalkers Mom

I say heck no to prongs. My parents(deceased) had numerous Great Danes. Some were rowdy, imagine that with a dog that big. They bought prong collars, they didnt work and they hurt 1 dog. They have been set aside and never used again. They are unnessary cruelty.
I use a Gentle Leader and also at first a soft muzzle. I take it still but havent had to use it in months. And yes my guy would growl and bark and stand on back legs. Now he just wants to play.
And why are there mutiple posts of the same thing?


----------



## Jax08

Fabian Robinson is in NY as well. Depending on how far you want to drive.


----------



## Jax08

lalachka said:


> small. I'd say a micro prong
> 
> Leerburg | Herm Sprenger Black Stainless Steel Prong Collars
> 
> small


You shoudl be using the middle sized one on an adult dog. If he decides to, he'll snap that small one


----------



## Steve Strom

lalachka said:


> I don't care about people and I'm pretty calm because i know I can control him (thank the prong lol) but I'm sure I give him some cues. I'm trying to watch myself to control what I give off.
> I just yank yank while walking the other way. just feel bad that he has to go through this violence. even if he doesn't feel the pain at that moment I must be doing some damage.


 Lalachka, the odds are the yank, yank and going the other way aren't helping you. He needs to learn to behave and deal with not barking and lunging. That's what the trainer could help you with. When you go the other way yanking, he just got away with something and now you're just frustrating him. Its a cycle.


----------



## lalachka

llombardo said:


> I don't know what to tell you. I do not see a fearful dog. Are there any GSD clubs around you?


I will check but what do you mean you don't see a fearful dog? trust me I'm happy of that's true but are you saying fearful dogs have a way about them?

he looks normal until he reacts. then he looks aggressive. maybe he's not fearful but insecure. and tries to scare stuff away


----------



## Jax08

Have you considered an e-collar? 

As far as doing damage, you are far less likely to do damage with a prong when he's lunging (unless he's a maniac) than with a flat collar or a choke. That can damage their tracheas.


----------



## lalachka

JakodaCD OA said:


> I do think fear aggression can be hit or miss..As I think in some cases downright aggression can be hit or miss as well.
> 
> In this case tho, since I have not seen the dog in person,,is it fear aggression? aggression? a case of he just downright doesn't like something about certain people? people staring at a dog can be perceived as a threat in some cases, someone coming at them full boar, confident in stature can be perceived as a threat..
> 
> I had a fear biter, years ago..This gsd was BIG, if someone he didn't know or was not real familiar with walked in my house, he would go right up to them barking, if they ignored him totally, in 2 minutes he'd be fine,,if you (person coming in) put their hand out for him to sniff it, (like they tell people to do!), he'd sniff it, when you pulled your hand back, he'd nail you and back off..Never broke the skin on anyone, but he did 'nip' a couple of guys thru the years..that failed to take my IGNORE the DOG seriously.
> 
> I wouldn't say mine was 'fear aggressive',,he could go out in public, as long as he was left alone, he didn't lunge at people or just nail someone nilly willy..I would label him a fear biter tho.
> 
> I would wonder lalachka what yours would do if he did get face to face/nose to nose with another dog? one that's he barking at? and if he lunged at the neighbor, do you think he would have nailed him if he could? downright attacked him??
> 
> Obviously we can't set those scenerio's up, but just curious what you think he would actually do, what he would follow thru with...


i will try Suzanne but i have no reason to not trust my trainer and we tried getting a reaction from him. he wouldn't react. 

it's me labeling him as fear aggressive lol. the trainer didn't say that. 
I'm going back this week, i will ask a few more things 


about dogs, i know what he would do because I used to have him off leash at the park. he'd keep barking and lunging and backing off and I guess all the while checking out the other dog 
once he decided the dog wasn't a threat he'd do a play bow)))) he's adorable 

I don't let him near dogs anymore except two he knows. 


mine sounds like yours except so far thankfully, he hasn't bitten. I do realize he can at any point.


----------



## llombardo

lalachka said:


> I will check but what do you mean you don't see a fearful dog? trust me I'm happy of that's true but are you saying fearful dogs have a way about them?
> 
> he looks normal until he reacts. then he looks aggressive. maybe he's not fearful but insecure. and tries to scare stuff away


He seems to be a nice confident dog in the video, but of course I haven't seen him react. Are you sure he is just not reactive? Barking and lunging doesn't always mean aggression. You don't have a video of him reacting? I would think that a fearful dog would always show some kind of signs of watching, looking around, etc.


----------



## lalachka

Jax08 said:


> Have you considered an e-collar?
> 
> As far as doing damage, you are far less likely to do damage with a prong when he's lunging (unless he's a maniac) than with a flat collar or a choke. That can damage their tracheas.


imo he's a maniac sometimes

I have an Ecollar. lol took me a month to take it out of the box but he wears it now. I use it once a week or so, when he blows recall

in what way are you suggesting it? for reactions? I thought about it


----------



## lalachka

llombardo said:


> He seems to be a nice confident dog in the video, but of course I haven't seen him react. Are you sure he is just not reactive? Barking and lunging doesn't always mean aggression. You don't have a video of him reacting? I would think that a fearful dog would always show some kind of signs of watching, looking around, etc.


Oh I see. very possible he's just reactive. I'm stuck on fear because I think that's what drives the reactions. 

what does reactive means? how's that diff from aggressive?


----------



## llombardo

lalachka said:


> about dogs, i know what he would do because I used to have him off leash at the park. he'd keep barking and lunging and backing off and I guess all the while checking out the other dog
> once he decided the dog wasn't a threat he'd do a play bow)))) he's adorable
> 
> .


Um, my dogs play like this all the time . They bark, go forward then go backwards and bow, the same way you explain. So again are you sure you are seeing what your seeing and not knowing what it is? GSD's play differently then other dogs.


----------



## Jax08

lalachka said:


> imo he's a maniac sometimes
> 
> I have an Ecollar. lol took me a month to take it out of the box but he wears it now. I use it once a week or so, when he blows recall
> 
> in what way are you suggesting it? for reactions? I thought about it


I used mine with Jax for reactions. Shut the reaction down, use LAT. It should be paired with behavior modification and you need to be VERY careful that the dog does not associate the stim with the other dog. Talk to Lou Castle on this, or your trainer. It's not something to attempt without guidance.


----------



## llombardo

lalachka said:


> Oh I see. very possible he's just reactive. I'm stuck on fear because I think that's what drives the reactions.
> 
> what does reactive means? how's that diff from aggressive?


There is different reactive to. It can be aggressiveness or frustration. It's very possible it's leash reactivity. How old is he? If they don't know his to greet something or can't get to it, they become frustrated and react the only way they know how.


----------



## lalachka

Jax08 said:


> Fabian Robinson is in NY as well. Depending on how far you want to drive.


Lol someone else suggested him to me a while ago. I will pm you later tonight. going out with my beauty lol


nothing bad but I don't want to give out details of a private convo on an open board


----------



## lalachka

Jax08 said:


> You shoudl be using the middle sized one on an adult dog. If he decides to, he'll snap that small one


he did yesterday lol while going at a dog. I always have a backup. that's why I'm not nervous, I know I got him no matter what. 
unless a leash breaks or both collars but then I'm really unlucky


I have the medium one too. I feel like I have better control with the small one. I asked my trainer today and he said it was fine. I know that people are against using micros on large dogs


----------



## lalachka

Steve Strom said:


> Lalachka, the odds are the yank, yank and going the other way aren't helping you. He needs to learn to behave and deal with not barking and lunging. That's what the trainer could help you with. When you go the other way yanking, he just got away with something and now you're just frustrating him. Its a cycle.


def not helping or I wouldn't be doing it a year later lol

i just don't know what else to do. if the dog was cooperating lol then I'd walk around him a few times until he calms but usually dogs are just passing by us and I don't have a chance to work with him. 

that's what the trainer does, has me walk around the dog and it works but on the street it's not like that


----------



## Jax08

I think the small prongs will over correct as well. More prongs, smaller, more pinch. It's possible that is happening and possibly causing some of the reactivity.


----------



## lalachka

Jax08 said:


> I think the small prongs will over correct as well. More prongs, smaller, more pinch. It's possible that is happening and possibly causing some of the reactivity.


I will use the medium today and see how it feels. but I used the medium for a while and same stuff. 
will give it a try though.


----------



## Jax08

So what are you doing to modify the behavior? You are yank yank yanking and irritating him but what does your trainer have you doing to mark good behavior so the dog learns? Any LAT? BAT? Anything? Or just correcting him and going the other way?


----------



## llombardo

Jax08 said:


> So what are you doing to modify the behavior? You are yank yank yanking and irritating him but what does your trainer have you doing to mark good behavior so the dog learns? Any LAT? BAT? Anything? Or just correcting him and going the other way?


Sounds like it, doesn't it? What about watch me, leave it, and all that stuff?


----------



## Twyla

First - good choice on the Leerburg leash. Love mine. The leather will continue softening. It is doubtful the leash will ever snap; very strong leather.

Also agree on using the medium prong size. 

The walk looked good. Saw the alert at 3.0, he refocused back on you 'good boy'. What happened at around 4.0? To me it sounded like you came out with a nervous pitch to your voice. Could be me hearing things, just think back about it.

The people he does react to. Think about what they were wearing - color, style; eye contact with him, looking/staring at you. It may seem to be random reactions, but a good chance there is something connecting them to trigger the reaction.

When you see your boy setting up to react, do you give him a command such as sit or heel; or just go the other way? If you do, and he follows the command sit, do you jackpot it until the person has passed you?


----------



## DJEtzel

lalachka said:


> I have looked into it and dabbled a little. He's ok if the dog is 5 ft away. He's not ok but I can say no before the reaction and he doesn't react. Anything closer - nope.
> 
> Also, I don't have dogs to practice on. Usually we see a dog and go the other way. Or they walk up on us and then he lunges.


So when you see other dogs and usually go the other way, find a safe distance and work on look at that instead. Frag and I went to dog parks and stood almost 50 yards away when we started. That was as close as he could be.


----------



## llombardo

Sometimes you have to gather all the info possible and start over.


----------



## llombardo

Twyla said:


> When you see your boy setting up to react, do you give him a command such as sit or heel; or just go the other way? If you do, and he follows the command sit, do you jackpot it until the person has passed you?


Jackpots are very important. I used raw venison, very messy but it worked.


----------



## Chip18

Hmm well I would take a slightly different approach. It's time to stop worrying about if your dog is fearful/aggressive and just let him know...what is not acceptable behaviour.

You need to modify "your" approach, the prong is not working for "you" and "this" if it was used correctly to start...you would not be having this problem.

As soon as the leash gets tight...you've lost the battle! The dog "expects a "yank" or some form of prong correction and he simple does not care! 

I would lose the prong and go with a flat collar and leash. It will be a new dynamic for both him and you. 

Sometimes answer aren't found where we expect to see them. 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5120529-post48.html

This came in the what to do if your dog is attacked thread. Back in the day while I was still working with dog, he is excellent on leash so no pulling but there were a couple of little dogs behind a fence and they were bark,barking in his face! He started to ramp up and get more and more agitated!

I popped him across the head "with the loose end of the leash" fairly lightly and it broke his concentration..."what the heck was that???" Problem solved that was 5 months go, never had an issue since! Dogs can bark bark bark in his face till they turn blue and they get 'Zero' reaction from him!

He already knows "daddy" has his back, so no point in him acting like a tool! 

Just a thought.

Couple of videos here that maybe of use:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html


----------



## Colie CVT

Just to throw out some things that have worked with my young male dog who decided to have dog reactivity issues. He hasn't really shown issues with people, but he got to be annoying with how he was acting about other dogs. For most of the issue when he would bark and lunge I didn't just keep going forward with a correction. I decided to switch up where I was walking him as far as his position to my body.

Having to walk all three of my dogs at times, I came up with a system. Leia is right against my left side, leash usually wrapped around my body. Myles is on the other side of her, since he likes to walk at a heel, but usually have like five feet between us lol. So I decided to put Doyle on my right side. Not only was I between him and the other dogs and people approaching, but the other dogs were too. He didn't seem to care about reacting as much. We still would go along with leave it and walking past. Some times I would stop and ask him to sit. He was watching them more easily, not as concerned. It made walking on our greenbelt so much easier with them all.

The other thing that I was doing was handing him his tushy when he would attempt to snap at dogs while we were walking on hiking trails with the club. Guess it could be seen as setting him up to fail, because whenever there was a new dog, if it passed by us, he would decide to snap at it. Any time that he did, I would pick his front feet off of the ground, physically step into him/push him off the trail away from the other dog while saying "No! Unacceptable!" The tone being more important than the words lol. After a moment, we would continue on. If the dog came near again, I would say leave it or just watch and praise him when he just kept on task. Him behaving also got him allowed off leash after a bit, which was the bigger reward for him than food or toys. Getting to be with my older dogs, or more importantly my golden, was the best reward for him. 

He now is calm and more relaxed around other dogs. If he is off leash and feels overwhelmed by a dog, he comes over to me so that I can deal with it for him. He has learned the human is the safe place and he trusts me to take care of whatever has him nervous. 

So just some ideas if it is insecurity or fear driving the aggression.  Doyle I am fairly sure was insecure and being low man on the totem pole at home, he figured if he was mean/scary first that they wouldn't try anything. Since then, we have had all kinds of good interactions with new dogs and he hasn't seemed to revert back any either.

Hopefully you can get things figured out.


----------



## lalachka

llombardo said:


> Um, my dogs play like this all the time . They bark, go forward then go backwards and bow, the same way you explain. So again are you sure you are seeing what your seeing and not knowing what it is? GSD's play differently then other dogs.


At this point I don't trust him with any dogs but one who's a husky and who he grew up with . 

They play really violent but there's never any aggression. I can tell the difference. They bite each other, knock each other over, run at huge speeds and flip each other. 
Any other dog after a few mins he starts doing stuff I'm not comfortable with so I don't let him play with anyone. 


When he barks and lunges at dogs it's aggression. He's in defense and my trainer confirmed that yesterday. He's scared until he decides the other dog is ok.


----------



## lalachka

Jax08 said:


> So what are you doing to modify the behavior? You are yank yank yanking and irritating him but what does your trainer have you doing to mark good behavior so the dog learns? Any LAT? BAT? Anything? Or just correcting him and going the other way?


I switch. Bad idea but I'm just telling you how this happened. 

Today I read some stuff, met with a trainer and decided that he doesn't have the right to react unless I tell him to. Basic obedience so he gets corrected. 

Few days go by, I start to doubt this is a good idea, besides I can't correct him hard enough to shut him up. So I read some more, meet with s diff trainer and decide I will distract with treats and toys. 

Some more time goes by, I realise that sometimes he's so stuck on whatever it is he doesn't want anything I have to offer. 


You get the idea. I keep going back and forth and confusing the heck out of my poor dog. 

So now I'm back to correcting. 

Few things. We are doing much better. I'm able to stop most reactions if I catch them in time. But he still wants to react, I'm not curing his fear


----------



## lalachka

llombardo said:


> Sounds like it, doesn't it? What about watch me, leave it, and all that stuff?


I've tried watch me. He can watch me at a bus stop with all those people no problem. When there's a dog near he will break his neck looking and if they're close enough he goes into the mode. 


How do I teach leave it for dogs? I asked here a little while ago and was told people just use NO for that and that's what I've been doing. 

I've tried many methods.


----------



## lalachka

Twyla said:


> First - good choice on the Leerburg leash. Love mine. The leather will continue softening. It is doubtful the leash will ever snap; very strong leather.
> 
> Also agree on using the medium prong size.
> 
> The walk looked good. Saw the alert at 3.0, he refocused back on you 'good boy'. What happened at around 4.0? To me it sounded like you came out with a nervous pitch to your voice. Could be me hearing things, just think back about it.
> 
> The people he does react to. Think about what they were wearing - color, style; eye contact with him, looking/staring at you. It may seem to be random reactions, but a good chance there is something connecting them to trigger the reaction.
> 
> When you see your boy setting up to react, do you give him a command such as sit or heel; or just go the other way? If you do, and he follows the command sit, do you jackpot it until the person has passed you?


Mine is pretty old lol. Nice and soft. I love it and I love the idea of a backup though my poor dog has 3 collars on every day and with ecollar it's 4 lol

At 4.0 there was a girl 10 years old or so. He also reacts to kids. So I don't remember whether she started walking towards him or leaned towards him. 

Yep, I panicked a little lol. Def almost screamed 

The people - no rhyme or reason. Yeah sunglasses, hats, umbrellas but kids set him off too (they look weird to him I guess), yesterday we stopped in the car and he started barking his head off at a lady holding her son in her arms who was wearing sunglasses. 

Maybe they looked at him. Who knows. People walking up on him, looking at him, talking to him but not always. 
We tried provoking him at the trainer's yesterday and his friend walked towards us talking and no reaction. 

Maybe he's just better behaved there, maybe not all people set him off. 


But here's a huge problem. Now I know that people walking towards us and talking to us will set him off so if anyone does, while I don't get nervous I do reach down and hold his head and leash closer and do move a way from them and do things I don't normally do. 


I know I shouldn't but I also know I must prevent a reaction. What's the solution?


To answer your last question. If I see he's about to react I say no, He doesn't turn head back to me fast enough then light pop. He usually does and I mark and treat but don't jackpot. Good idea, I will make sure to praise and jackpot like crazy. 

Sometimes even if I noticed in time he will react. Dogs too close he just can't handle. Then it gets ugly because I'm trying to shut him up and get away and it's not easy


----------



## lalachka

DJEtzel said:


> So when you see other dogs and usually go the other way, find a safe distance and work on look at that instead. Frag and I went to dog parks and stood almost 50 yards away when we started. That was as close as he could be.


There's no dog park I can go to consistently. The closest one is over an hour walking and by the time I'm home it's probably closed. I can make the trip every weekend but how much help is something so random?

What I do have access to every day and easy is a park with dogs walking around. I do follow dogs sometimes and work with him but I get weird looks and to be fair I wouldn't like someone using my dog without asking. 

And I can't ask because I can't get close enough with no reaction And screaming to a random person sets him off sometimes. 


Anyway, so we have dogs walking by. Sometimes they're far enough and I can work on it but sometimes they're not. I can't control the distance. 

Any ideas? I've been thinking about this for s while. 

A few times I lucked out and a dog was sitting down and the owner didn't mind and it took a while but we passed really close with no reaction. But this happens so rarely


----------



## lalachka

Chip the prong has worked and the reason I'm still having some reaction is for the reasons I described above. I keep going back and forth between methods because I can't decide on one. 
Also, we have setbacks that I can't control. But I'm able to stop most reactions. Huge change from before

Even if that wasn't the case I will never give up the prong. I'm calm because I know I can control him. Take away the prong and I will tense up and clutch his collar anytime anything gets close. 

Never. Even if he stops reacting I will have it on just in case, just won't pop It. 

Are you for real? Take a prong off a reactive dog? And control him how?


Next dog I get, with everything I know hopefully won't need a prong at all, but this one has been on a choker starting at 4 months (dumb trainer) he can take lots of force and ignore it. Never.


----------



## lalachka

Collie I'm sure it's fear or insecurity 

I'm able to stop reactions before they occur. I guess I was hoping for no reactions)))))


----------



## DJEtzel

lalachka said:


> There's no dog park I can go to consistently. The closest one is over an hour walking and by the time I'm home it's probably closed. I can make the trip every weekend but how much help is something so random?
> 
> What I do have access to every day and easy is a park with dogs walking around. I do follow dogs sometimes and work with him but I get weird looks and to be fair I wouldn't like someone using my dog without asking.
> 
> And I can't ask because I can't get close enough with no reaction And screaming to a random person sets him off sometimes.
> 
> 
> Anyway, so we have dogs walking by. Sometimes they're far enough and I can work on it but sometimes they're not. I can't control the distance.
> 
> Any ideas? I've been thinking about this for s while.
> 
> A few times I lucked out and a dog was sitting down and the owner didn't mind and it took a while but we passed really close with no reaction. But this happens so rarely


Honestly, this is my take on it and maybe others will disagree with me. 

It's a free country. If you want to walk your reactive dog and actually attempt to fix a problem he's having, by using the sight of other people's dog, on public land, you do you. 

I never asked a single soul if I could let my dog look at theirs and do training with my dog 20 yards away or three aisles away at a pet store. I think it would be silly to ask, and no one I noticed ever seemed to have a problem with it. Usually it sparked intelligent conversation, if anything. 

I know that *I* would not mind someone doing this with my dogs at *all* and frequently do have people at a nearby park work with their dogs in proximity to mine running off leash after Frisbees, etc. I think it's FANTASTIC when people want to do something with their dogs or fix a problem. If someone has a problem with you standing 20+ yards away and treating your dog, they can leave. JMHO. 

It doesn't have to be a dog park, that was just an example. We went to tons of public parks where there would be dogs, like you described, and we went to the PARKING LOT (not inside for a long time) of pet stores where there would be dogs walking in at peak times- Saturday and sunday afternoons. We did look at that with a clicker, and if we or someone else got too close before I could recover, we had lost that opportunity to train and we gave ourselves more distance. It will take a while to overcome, that is certain, but if you work on this regularly (Frag and I would go out 4 days a week, at least, to parks or stores and LAT + obedience around other dogs) it will be accomplished or have great progress within a few months. 

Keep in mind you CAN control the distance, if a dog is closer to you than you know he can handle, move AWAY. Maybe he's already reacting by the time you notice, but work on noticing quicker and distracting him quicker. LOAD his name at home, so that you have a quick response out and about and his head will whip around when you say his name, so that you can move him away. Keep eye contact to keep engaged with him. 

FWIW, I would keep the prong collar for power steering, but not actually correct on it.


----------



## Lilie

lalachka said:


> *I walk while staring at him*. so when I say I don't notice it it's not because I'm looking the other way, it's because I couldn't recognize the reaction coming fast enough


I have a stable GSD. I can assure you that if I had him out on leash in a crowded area and stared at him the entire time, he is going to react to something. That is like having a dog walk on a tight rope waiting for YOU to react. 

Add the fact that you have switched back and forth with training methods. You are letting him know you EXPECT him to react by "using spy actions" while you have him out. 

I have a handler sensitive dog. We do Agility. If I stare at him in the field, he shuts down. Stops. Done. He has no idea what it is I'm trying to tell him, so he does nothing.


----------



## Jax08

lalachka said:


> I switch. Bad idea but I'm just telling you how this happened.
> 
> Today I read some stuff, met with a trainer and decided that he doesn't have the right to react unless I tell him to. Basic obedience so he gets corrected.
> 
> Few days go by*, I start to doubt this is a good idea, besides I can't correct him hard enough to shut him up. *So I read some more, meet with s diff trainer and decide I will distract with treats and toys.
> 
> Some more time goes by, I realise that sometimes he's so stuck on whatever it is he doesn't want anything I have to offer.
> 
> 
> You get the idea. I keep going back and forth and confusing the heck out of my poor dog.
> 
> So now I'm back to correcting.
> 
> Few things. We are doing much better. I'm able to stop most reactions if I catch them in time. But he still wants to react, I'm not curing his fear


Then maybe you need to discuss an e-collar. Send me your PM on Fabian.


----------



## lalachka

DJEtzel said:


> Honestly, this is my take on it and maybe others will disagree with me.
> 
> It's a free country. If you want to walk your reactive dog and actually attempt to fix a problem he's having, by using the sight of other people's dog, on public land, you do you.
> 
> I never asked a single soul if I could let my dog look at theirs and do training with my dog 20 yards away or three aisles away at a pet store. I think it would be silly to ask, and no one I noticed ever seemed to have a problem with it. Usually it sparked intelligent conversation, if anything.
> 
> I know that *I* would not mind someone doing this with my dogs at *all* and frequently do have people at a nearby park work with their dogs in proximity to mine running off leash after Frisbees, etc. I think it's FANTASTIC when people want to do something with their dogs or fix a problem. If someone has a problem with you standing 20+ yards away and treating your dog, they can leave. JMHO.
> 
> It doesn't have to be a dog park, that was just an example. We went to tons of public parks where there would be dogs, like you described, and we went to the PARKING LOT (not inside for a long time) of pet stores where there would be dogs walking in at peak times- Saturday and sunday afternoons. We did look at that with a clicker, and if we or someone else got too close before I could recover, we had lost that opportunity to train and we gave ourselves more distance. It will take a while to overcome, that is certain, but if you work on this regularly (Frag and I would go out 4 days a week, at least, to parks or stores and LAT + obedience around other dogs) it will be accomplished or have great progress within a few months.
> 
> Keep in mind you CAN control the distance, if a dog is closer to you than you know he can handle, move AWAY. Maybe he's already reacting by the time you notice, but work on noticing quicker and distracting him quicker. LOAD his name at home, so that you have a quick response out and about and his head will whip around when you say his name, so that you can move him away. Keep eye contact to keep engaged with him.
> 
> FWIW, I would keep the prong collar for power steering, but not actually correct on it.


 
you were able to get it to go away completely? i can avoid a reaction if we are not blindsided and if there's room to get away (with our sidewalks sometimes there's no place to go).

he still wants to react though


----------



## lalachka

Jax08 said:


> Then maybe you need to discuss an e-collar. Send me your PM on Fabian.


i did last night. i sent you another pm last week. you don't get them?


----------



## lalachka

Lilie said:


> I have a stable GSD. I can assure you that if I had him out on leash in a crowded area and stared at him the entire time, he is going to react to something. That is like having a dog walk on a tight rope waiting for YOU to react.
> 
> Add the fact that you have switched back and forth with training methods. You are letting him know you EXPECT him to react by "using spy actions" while you have him out.
> 
> I have a handler sensitive dog. We do Agility. If I stare at him in the field, he shuts down. Stops. Done. He has no idea what it is I'm trying to tell him, so he does nothing.


there's no way to winh with this. i don't stare in his eyes, i look in the back of his head lol.

i started doing this after a trainer told me to (not this one, this one tells me to not look at him at all). she said my dog gives me a ton of warnings and i miss them because i'm not looking at him.

she's right, he does. i can see him tense up, ears perk and so on. but unless i'm looking at him i will miss every reaction.

about the spy. again, i started doing this at those corners and stairs where we had dogs coming out of nowhere. 

my goal is to avoid a reaction at any cost. once he reacts it's ugly and takes lots of force to stop him. 


i know that i'm doing things i shouldn't be doing. switching back and forth is probably the worst. i'm just explaining how this all goes down. there's a reason behind everything i'm doing, stuff that happened that i'm now trying to avoid.

that's why i'm on the net all the time, looking for ideas.


----------



## Jax08

lalachka said:


> i did last night. i sent you another pm last week. you don't get them?



No, can you resend them? they should be in your sent folder


----------



## lalachka

Jax08 said:


> No, can you resend them? they should be in your sent folder


i just did and added some more lol


----------



## DJEtzel

lalachka said:


> you were able to get it to go away completely? i can avoid a reaction if we are not blindsided and if there's room to get away (with our sidewalks sometimes there's no place to go).
> 
> he still wants to react though


Yes. As I said (which you might have missed in all the replies), my almost 5 y/o GSD is now able to walk within inches of strange dogs in stores, festivals, training classes, etc. without so much as batting an eye. He's used as a demo dog in my training classes and holds down stays while strange dogs work around him. I use him a neutral dog for reactive dog training, now, ironically. Never once used a single correction with him. 

FWIW, I have no pedigree for him, but he is a medium energy/medium drive dog, with great drive for herding, ball, dock diving, lure coursing, obedience, and nose work. So he is not a couch potato, gets along with everyone/everything type dog by any means.


----------



## lalachka

DJEtzel said:


> Yes. As I said (which you might have missed in all the replies), my almost 5 y/o GSD is now able to walk within inches of strange dogs in stores, festivals, training classes, etc. without so much as batting an eye. He's used as a demo dog in my training classes and holds down stays while strange dogs work around him. I use him a neutral dog for reactive dog training, now, ironically. Never once used a single correction with him.
> 
> FWIW, I have no pedigree for him, but he is a medium energy/medium drive dog, with great drive for herding, ball, dock diving, lure coursing, obedience, and nose work. So he is not a couch potato, gets along with everyone/everything type dog by any means.


Oh I read that and forgot lol

I've been at this for a year. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong then. 

I saw the video for lat but never tried it exactly what way. Is that what worked for you?

ETA I do a combination of things maybe that's what it is? Or that I can't prevent some reactions? I'm really lost.


----------



## Jax08

got it and answered


----------



## DJEtzel

lalachka said:


> Oh I read that and forgot lol
> 
> I've been at this for a year. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong then.
> 
> I saw the video for lat but never tried it exactly what way. Is that what worked for you?
> 
> ETA I do a combination of things maybe that's what it is? Or that I can't prevent some reactions? I'm really lost.


It's my opinion that corrections work for very few dogs with reactivity. I always believe that along with telling a dog what NOT to do, you need to tell them what TO do. Correcting doesn't offer that, which is why it *usually* doesn't work. 

All that I did for Frag was LAT. He looked, I clicked/marked the moment he glanced at the dog, and treated. Kept him under threshold until he was very quick to offer me a glance back after looking, then started decreasing distance again. I do this with all of my puppies as well, to PREVENT reactivity and so far, it has worked wonders. Patton was reactive for about a week, but that was that. Recon never had any reactivity, nor have any of my fosters. 

If you need any help with LAT information, feel free to PM me. I teach it in most of my classes, and have been meaning to make a video since many people struggle with understand it's application.


----------



## Chip18

lalachka said:


> Are you for real? Take a prong off a reactive dog? And control him how?




That's a reasonable question and you have to do whatever works for you! 

But something are basic, the leash has to stay loose in fornt of triggers are you will never get control!

Thresholds have to be managed so either distance or time. My guys was "people aggressive! I never gave him the opportunity to distinguish between short fat tall skinny,canes wheelchairs etc.! I didn’t give it crap not his concern...'we are moving now dog ...get over it!

If it took strength to train a dog then only men would be dog trainers?? Your doing as I said "the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result??"

I try and out think my dogs, works much better than battling with them. 

I have seen Caesar Milan work with dogs on TV...(who hasn't ) and usually 9 times out of 10. The first thing he does is dump whatever "crap" the owner has on the dog! It's usually not working the dog has an attitude or grown use to the ill handling.

Here is a video I like this guy myself, he's working with an aggressive dog, the dog came to him on a GL (which I consider a piece of crap myself) I thought the first think he would do was dump it! He didn’t??? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfiDe0GNnLQ

What "I" got out of that is it's not the tool it's the handler! 

Sometimes the solution to a problem is at the "other end of the leash."


----------



## DJEtzel

Chip18 said:


> What "I" got out of that is it's not the tool it's the handler!
> 
> Sometimes the solution to a problem is at the "other end of the leash."


While that is usually true, tools are needed to keep people and dogs safe, sometimes. 

I know at 150lbs and 5' 7" tall, I cannot hold a dog on a flat collar that weighs more than 45-50lbs that is lunging and pulling with all it's weight for something. A prong collar is necessary or me to maintain control.


----------



## DaniFani

DJEtzel said:


> *It's my opinion that corrections work for very few dogs with reactivity.* I always believe that along with telling a dog what NOT to do, you need to tell them what TO do. Correcting doesn't offer that, which is why it *usually* doesn't work.
> 
> All that I did for Frag was LAT. He looked, I clicked/marked the moment he glanced at the dog, and treated. Kept him under threshold until he was very quick to offer me a glance back after looking, then started decreasing distance again. I do this with all of my puppies as well, to PREVENT reactivity and so far, it has worked wonders. Patton was reactive for about a week, but that was that. Recon never had any reactivity, nor have any of my fosters.
> 
> If you need any help with LAT information, feel free to PM me. I teach it in most of my classes, and have been meaning to make a video since many people struggle with understand it's application.


Corrections in general, or corrections for the behavior as a result of reactivity?


----------



## DJEtzel

DaniFani said:


> Corrections in general, or corrections for the behavior as a result of reactivity?


Corrections for the behavior of reacting.


----------



## Jax08

A correction for the reaction worked for Jax. After years of not correcting, stuffing her face with treats, and the behavior continuing, a well timed correction paired with LAT worked for her. I had a dog that couldn't go into public without having a fit that would lay in the middle of Tractor Supply, relaxed, watching other dogs.


----------



## DJEtzel

Jax08 said:


> A correction for the reaction worked for Jax. After years of not correcting, stuffing her face with treats, and the behavior continuing, a well timed correction paired with LAT worked for her. I had a dog that couldn't go into public without having a fit that would lay in the middle of Tractor Supply, relaxed, watching other dogs.


I've definitely heard of it working, I've just never seen it in person.


----------



## Jax08

I shut Seger's punky reactions down with a correction too. Nope, not allowed. End of story. BUT he is not weak nerved or genetically dog aggressive. He was just being a punk.


----------



## Chip18

DJEtzel said:


> While that is usually true, tools are needed to keep people and dogs safe, sometimes.
> 
> I know at 150lbs and 5' 7" tall, I cannot hold a dog on a flat collar that weighs more than 45-50lbs that is lunging and pulling with all it's weight for something. A prong collar is necessary or me to maintain control.


No disagreement and as long as the "tool" is used correctly...that's how it should work!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrrQJto8xJU


----------



## DJEtzel

Jax08 said:


> I shut Seger's punky reactions down with a correction too. Nope, not allowed. End of story. BUT he is not weak nerved or genetically dog aggressive. He was just being a punk.


I don't get to work with many stable dogs that may take corrections well or understand. I also don't get to work with many owners that understand how to use corrections. I suspect this could greatly influence the success I've seen with corrections.


----------



## DaniFani

DJEtzel said:


> Corrections for the behavior of reacting.


I guess I would say, depends on the dog. For the reactive adult dogs I've been working, that have bite histories, and years of imbedded habits/behaviors, we use obedience to get over reactivity. The dog is corrected for breaking the obedience to be reactive. Dog breaks a down to react to a stressor, dog is corrected for breaking the down. 

I've now seen this "fix" several dogs, and I'm not talking, "my pet just blows me off" kind of dogs. I'm talking, the dog is potentially going to be ordered to be destroyed by the state for bite history, dogs. The same dog that two weeks ago wanted to bite any and every man that walked by, any dog within vicinity, chased cars, has at least three bites under his belt (that the owners admitted to), can now be in a relaxed, down/stay, while men, dogs, cars, lawnmowers, etc....go right past the dog. The dog actually laid all the way down on his side, borderline falling asleep, while things he used to want to eat, walk by, before he was released for reward. He walks right on by his stressors now, willingly and happily goes into vet clinics (a huuuuge problem for him), and he's acting like a fun "dog" now, instead of a dog that is stressed by every step he takes and the impending doom he was sure was coming his way. He plays, rolls on his back, jumps around, he's been kind of freed of those demons. It's really neat and was achieved in two weeks of intensive training.

Another dog we had was a female, not nearly as reactive as the one I just described, but she def had a bite response to some stressors...trained the same way (with some adjustments made based on her temperament and stressors), and now achieves the same relaxed, "free", state that we could not see in her when she first came.

My dog, hit about 6 months old and decided he was going to bark at other dogs on walks when they barked at him (if they were non reactive he was). I just straight corrected for that behavior and kept walking, it's a non-issue now. I guess you could say I corrected for breaking the "healing" obedience of the walk...but I would say I corrected the actual behavior of the reactivity to the dog, we weren't usually under obedience on the walk. However, I agree, for the most part, that correcting for the actual reactivity can cause more associations with the stressor than with compliance, but I would say it depends on the dog and the stressors.


----------



## Jax08

DJEtzel said:


> I don't get to work with many stable dogs that may take corrections well or understand. I also don't get to work with many owners that understand how to use corrections. I suspect this could greatly influence the success I've seen with corrections.


Agreed. I worked with Jax under the guidance of a good trainer and same with Seger. You have to have good timing, fair corrections combined with behavior mod.


----------



## DaniFani

Jax08 said:


> A correction for the reaction worked for Jax. After years of not correcting, stuffing her face with treats, and the behavior continuing, a well timed correction paired with LAT worked for her. *I had a dog that couldn't go into public without having a fit that would lay in the middle of Tractor Supply, relaxed, watching other dogs.*


Isn't that just a wonderful feeling?? Especially the "Relaxed" part. I need to read up more on LAT. But it's really neat to see a dog, learn that it doesn't have to be stressed or reactive. That life is good, and they can be calm, happy, nothing bad is going to happen. I love it.


----------



## lalachka

DJEtzel said:


> It's my opinion that corrections work for very few dogs with reactivity. I always believe that along with telling a dog what NOT to do, you need to tell them what TO do. Correcting doesn't offer that, which is why it *usually* doesn't work.
> 
> All that I did for Frag was LAT. He looked, I clicked/marked the moment he glanced at the dog, and treated. Kept him under threshold until he was very quick to offer me a glance back after looking, then started decreasing distance again. I do this with all of my puppies as well, to PREVENT reactivity and so far, it has worked wonders. Patton was reactive for about a week, but that was that. Recon never had any reactivity, nor have any of my fosters.
> 
> If you need any help with LAT information, feel free to PM me. I teach it in most of my classes, and have been meaning to make a video since many people struggle with understand it's application.


 
i have tried positive too, longer than i corrected. i usually decide to correct after positive hasn't worked and i can't go on correcting for a long enough perviod of time, i start feeling like i'm abusing him. so back to treats i go

problem with positive for me is that sometimes he blows me off. theres nothing i can do, no treat, toy, nothing that will get his attention. he doesn't hear or see me.

also, at this point, he has over a year of reacting. it's a habit. i can't see treats working. and i don't lol


however i will give LAT an honest try. i will post if i have questions about it


----------



## lalachka

Chip18 said:


> That's a reasonable question and you have to do whatever works for you!
> 
> But something are basic, the leash has to stay loose in fornt of triggers are you will never get control!
> 
> Thresholds have to be managed so either distance or time. My guys was "people aggressive! I never gave him the opportunity to distinguish between short fat tall skinny,canes wheelchairs etc.! I didn’t give it crap not his concern...'we are moving now dog ...get over it!
> 
> If it took strength to train a dog then only men would be dog trainers?? Your doing as I said "the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result??"
> 
> I try and out think my dogs, works much better than battling with them.
> 
> I have seen Caesar Milan work with dogs on TV...(who hasn't ) and usually 9 times out of 10. The first thing he does is dump whatever "crap" the owner has on the dog! It's usually not working the dog has an attitude or grown use to the ill handling.
> 
> Here is a video I like this guy myself, he's working with an aggressive dog, the dog came to him on a GL (which I consider a piece of crap myself) I thought the first think he would do was dump it! He didn’t???
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfiDe0GNnLQ
> 
> What "I" got out of that is it's not the tool it's the handler!
> 
> Sometimes the solution to a problem is at the "other end of the leash."


 
as i said many times, i'm definitely the problem, he's my first dog, i'm learning on him and if i didn't completely created all his problems i definitely contributed to them A LOT.

however, at this point it is what it is and he will wear a prong for life. it's unfair, it's my fault but i'm not doing him any favors if i take it off. 

my dog is people aggressive as well, he hasn't bitten but he lunges. i also don't stick around and let him go crazy, i keep walking but the force it takes to keep walking is ugly looking

i almost wish i can record his reaction. i'd think people know what it looks like but then i read comments like yours and i'm not sure. how do i make sure the leash doesn't go tight?


ETA it doesn't take strength to TRAIN a dog but it definitely takes lots of strength to control a dog in attack mode. either that or i have a monster. i've been caught a few times with him not having the prong on and him reacting. i was laying on top of him and i thought i'd let go a few times. i'm 170 lbs, he's 90


----------



## lalachka

Jax08 said:


> A correction for the reaction worked for Jax. After years of not correcting, stuffing her face with treats, and the behavior continuing, a well timed correction paired with LAT worked for her. I had a dog that couldn't go into public without having a fit that would lay in the middle of Tractor Supply, relaxed, watching other dogs.


 
i like this idea. can you explain in detail? how do you pair LAT with a correction?

at the stage where it is now i can't see him stopping unless hes corrected. actually, corrections did work for us. now i'm able to say NO and he will control himself as long as the trigger isn't right in front of him. before, nothing mattered.

also, i used the ecollar once and as i told you, he shut up right away. i'm just not sure about it yet. still thinking.


----------



## DJEtzel

lalachka said:


> i have tried positive too, longer than i corrected. i usually decide to correct after positive hasn't worked and i can't go on correcting for a long enough perviod of time, i start feeling like i'm abusing him. so back to treats i go
> 
> *problem with positive for me is that sometimes he blows me off. theres nothing i can do, no treat, toy, nothing that will get his attention. he doesn't hear or see me.*
> 
> also, at this point, he has over a year of reacting. it's a habit. i can't see treats working. and i don't lol
> 
> 
> however i will give LAT an honest try. i will post if i have questions about it


If that's happening then you are either too far over threshold and you need to increase distance, or you are not valuable enough and you need to do more engagement work at home.


----------



## lalachka

DJEtzel said:


> If that's happening then you are either too far over threshold and you need to increase distance, or you are not valuable enough and you need to do more engagement work at home.


 
i'm not talking about him reacting, i totally understand him blow me off then. just him sniffing, fr example. there are things he wants so bad that he doesn't want anything i have to offer.

i had a trainer try to get his attention when he really wanted to sniff. after she couldn't in 30 secs (she's against popping the prongs and all) she turned to me baffled and was like "he's blowing me off!!"

do i have a special dog? i doubt it. there are things they want more than anything we can give them. diff for diff dogs


----------



## DaniFani

I should add, my go-to-advice for anyone with reactivity problems is to find a trainer, irl. Internet training is silly when only a moment in time is described through an owner's eyes that might not know what they are seeing. We can talk about what we "think" the problem is and what we "think" the solution is, until the cows come home....but bottom line, over the internet, we could be completely off base. I also don't think people can learn to correct their dog over the internet, they need someone to show them in person about timing, balance, fairness, reward, etc...I also don't believe you can broadly classify what a dog can or can't take based only on genetics, reactivity, owners, etc....Each dog needs a plan dictated by that dog's temperament, stressors, handler capability, etc...Training (good training) isn't a "one-size-fits-all" program. There may be parameters that continually work, but adjustments need to be made and trainers need to be willing to think outside their "way of doing things." That first dog I talked about, his owner was told by a trainer when the dog was just around a year old, "this is just who he is...you need to manage it." Basically given a, "oh well" after taking their money and walking away....I hate that.


----------



## VTGirlT

I didn't read all of the replies, but most of them, and saw your video.

That is a very busy place, cars, buses, lots of people, kids in stroller, etc. For my dog that would be flooding.
He looked "relaxed" (was he? I dont know..), and i did notice him focusing on you a lot (which is great!)

My sister's dog reacts to other dogs and barks at people (she is not aggressive to people but barks at them), she takes her dog into tractor supply. And is fine.

When i took Zelda to the reactive rover class, there are about 6 other dogs, and about 12+ people in a room about 50 ft by 50 ft. Most of the dogs who are reactive to other dogs or people, were good. There was one dog that would growl at people and one other dog who was reactive to other dogs who would bark. Other than that, the dogs did great. Made it look like they were all practically perfect- of course they are not. But they were flooded, and shut down. Zelda shuts down by not taking treats, laying down and putting her head down, and not wanting to do anything. Other dogs can react different, and shutting down can happen on a walk too- doesn't necessarily mean they have to lay down, like my sisters dog.

I think its pretty obvious when a dog is fear aggressive, and a couple of trainers i worked with say that most of the time aggressive dogs, act out of fear. Insecurity, i am sure can be a reason and is a cause a lot of the time.

Just my thoughts!


----------



## DaniFani

lalachka said:


> i'm not talking about him reacting, i totally understand him blow me off then. just him sniffing, fr example. there are things he wants so bad that he doesn't want anything i have to offer.
> 
> *i had a trainer try to get his attention when he really wanted to sniff. after she couldn't in 30 secs (she's against popping the prongs and all) she turned to me baffled and was like "he's blowing me off!!"*
> 
> do i have a special dog? i doubt it. there are things they want more than anything we can give them. diff for diff dogs


This is ridiculous.


----------



## lalachka

i have a trainer, going there again tomorrow. he told me to pop him every time. he said it's just basic obedience, he's not allowed to react. period.

i'm afraid to commit to that, that's why i'm posting. also, when he's out there with the trainer (any trainer) his reactions are stopped very easily. takes a pop. once we are alone it's much uglier.


----------



## lalachka

DaniFani said:


> This is ridiculous.


many years experience, ME school. just doesn't believe in force

all these things make me believe that some force is needed. ive tried many things


----------



## lalachka

VTGirlT said:


> I didn't read all of the replies, but most of them, and saw your video.
> 
> That is a very busy place, cars, buses, lots of people, kids in stroller, etc. For my dog that would be flooding.
> He looked "relaxed" (was he? I dont know..), and i did notice him focusing on you a lot (which is great!)
> 
> My sister's dog reacts to other dogs and barks at people (she is not aggressive to people but barks at them), she takes her dog into tractor supply. And is fine.
> 
> When i took Zelda to the reactive rover class, there are about 6 other dogs, and about 12+ people in a room about 50 ft by 50 ft. Most of the dogs who are reactive to other dogs or people, were good. There was one dog that would growl at people and one other dog who was reactive to other dogs who would bark. Other than that, the dogs did great. Made it look like they were all practically perfect- of course they are not. But they were flooded, and shut down. Zelda shuts down by not taking treats, laying down and putting her head down, and not wanting to do anything. Other dogs can react different, and shutting down can happen on a walk too- doesn't necessarily mean they have to lay down, like my sisters dog.
> 
> I think its pretty obvious when a dog is fear aggressive, and a couple of trainers i worked with say that most of the time aggressive dogs, act out of fear. Insecurity, i am sure can be a reason and is a cause a lot of the time.
> 
> Just my thoughts!


 
this is a block we live on))))) this is what he's exposed to every day many times a day. people constantly in his space.

no, he was relaxed. he acts fine most of the time. i wish a good trainer can live with me for a week and see what goes on and explain it all and show me how to fix it. when we go for sessions he's much better behaved and much easier controlled. i get all happy, go home and then back to normal


----------



## VTGirlT

lalachka said:


> this is a block we live on))))) this is what he's exposed to every day many times a day. people constantly in his space.
> 
> no, he was relaxed. he acts fine most of the time. i wish a good trainer can live with me for a week and see what goes on and explain it all.


If someone were to stop and start talking to you? or put their hand out to your dog what would your dogs reaction be?


----------



## lalachka

VTGirlT said:


> If someone were to stop and start talking to you? or put their hand out to your dog what would your dogs reaction be?


bark and lunge. if the person kept coming then hide between my legs

yesterday we tried setting up a reaction at the trainer's and he didn't react. then later on at night he barked at 4 people when were back home. barked on 4 diff episodes


----------



## Steve Strom

Hey Lalachka, this will probably come across as, yeah, that's easy for you to say, but don't overthink it. Stick to what the trainer is showing you. Sometimes it isn't anything more complicated then "Knock it off"


----------



## lalachka

Steve Strom said:


> Hey Lalachka, this will probably come across as, yeah, that's easy for you to say, but don't overthink it. Stick to what the trainer is showing you. Sometimes it isn't anything more complicated then "Knock it off"


yeah, so many people have told me that. including the trainer lolol

the only problem is the amount of force is takes to get him to knock it off. that's why i'm afraid to commit and looking for other options


----------



## lalachka

at the trainer's it took one pop. he told me my dog is easy to handle and he most def was

i guess i'm wondering what he'd say if he saw what i have to do on the street. but i have no way of ever recording that


----------



## DaniFani

lalachka said:


> yeah, so many people have told me that. including the trainer lolol
> 
> the only problem is the amount of force is takes to get him to knock it off. that's why i'm afraid to commit and looking for other options


This is my last post, because I don't mean to come off as pushy, so I'll just say it once. I really do not understand this line of thought. You admit what the trainer's doing is working, you admit the trainer has no problem, very easily and with minimal pressure, stopping the behavior all together...with your dog...in front of you. Why on earth wouldn't you run with this, fix the problem, and go on your merry way. YOU are preventing progress, stress-free walks, and a dog that is happy and non-reactive, because you, what? Just want more options?? I don't get that, why keep your relationship with your dog in this confusing, unclear, state, rather than quickly using a method you say works...and moving on. I don't understand this at all. You also said the ecollar fixed the problem right away, but you stopped....because YOU didn't like it....your dog is telling you, through behavior, what is working. You are basically saying, "I don't care it's working, I don't like that, I'm going to keep you in this state of being with me, and we are going to ruminate in this issue." Don't get it.


----------



## onyx'girl

DaniFani said:


> I guess I would say, depends on the dog. For the reactive adult dogs I've been working, that have bite histories, and years of imbedded habits/behaviors, *we use obedience to get over reactivity. The dog is corrected for breaking the obedience to be reactive*. Dog breaks a down to react to a stressor, dog is corrected for breaking the down.


I agree with this, I'm working with a reactive dog right now and we are doing the above. We are going slowly, first getting the obedience and engagement with the owner solidified. The owner is much more exciting than whatever her dog is reacting to. Dog is allowed to look, but not hone in on another dog, owner puts dog into an obedience/engagement mode. If the dog doesn't do what the owner asks, dog gets corrected for not doing the command, but not for reacting. It removes that conflict backfire of getting corrected for the reactivity(dog thinks other dog is responsible for the correction) Meaningful corrections, not nagging ones are most effective. When the dog gets a nagging or reeling him in type, it just shows him he got away with whatever the correction was about.

Also working with the handler to be proactive and redirect dog back to her before he can be reactive. 
I agree, LAT works too, though her dogs food drive is nonexistent when he's reacting. She's tried it with other trainers and gotten little in the way of results.

We're having good results with this dog and handler doing obedience/engagement. I'm using my neutral dog to desensitize hers, we go to unfamiliar places and now and then random dogs appear....showing us how far hes come in just a couple of weeks.


----------



## lalachka

no, the ecollar disnt fix the problem right away, just shut him up that once. 

what I'm saying is that with any trainer around my dog is on his best behavior. it took me one pop to shut him up. when we go home and are alone it's not that easy. 

it takes much more force to stop the reaction. I'm wondering what the trainer would say if he saw it.


----------



## VTGirlT

So as long as they ignore him, he is fine? 

He is barking and lunging at him, probably to tell them to back off he needs space? 

He literally goes behind you?

Fear isn't always logical. But it does _sounds_ like he is being fear aggressive. 

I really like this, "First we teach calming behaviors like commands so that we can reprogram their reactions to people. So yes, we always go back to commands so that they can 'see' the picture clearly for what it is..." So what i understand from it, usually FA dogs have irrational fears, and then they , soon become a habit, and that habit is ingrained in them, that they do the action without remembering why they feared it. So helping them learn to manage their own emotions properly, and showing them an approved outlet of their actions so that they can be stable dogs. In the mean time, management.
I dont know, just some thoughts to think about


----------



## lalachka

VTGirlT said:


> So as long as they ignore him, he is fine?
> 
> He is barking and lunging at him, probably to tell them to back off he needs space?
> 
> He literally goes behind you?
> 
> Fear isn't always logical. But it does _sounds_ like he is being fear aggressive.
> 
> I really like this, "First we teach calming behaviors like commands so that we can reprogram their reactions to people. So yes, we always go back to commands so that they can 'see' the picture clearly for what it is..." So what i understand from it, usually FA dogs have irrational fears, and then they , soon become a habit, and that habit is ingrained in them, that they do the action without remembering why they feared it. So helping them learn to manage their own emotions properly, and showing them an approved outlet of their actions so that they can be stable dogs. In the mean time, management.


yep, you saw the video. tons of people. also, if a person is in his space out of nowhere he will react. like last night, we opened the door to go out and someone was coming up the stairs. 

yes, lol, goes behind me and barks from there lol.


----------



## lalachka

we are going out now. will try the ecollar again


----------



## lalachka

there was a dog downstairs. he saw him before I did. 

so he went off, I zapped on 20, nothing, 30, nothing. by then the dog walked away. 

I can feel 17 and it's not a good feeling. is it even healthy to zap them like this? 

last time I did 40, didn't realize it was that high. he jumped and did stop barking right away. 

I will give it a few more tries before I decide against it.


----------



## VTGirlT

Well heres my opinion. The way you are using it sounds like a red flag to me. 
I wouldn't keep using it the way you are.
Try messaging Lou Castle for his advice and look up his technique. Or try and find somewhere who uses e-collar similar to him.


----------



## Bear L

If you're worried about the amount of force it takes to get the dog to knock it off, keep in mind it's only once per incident. Far less than the sum of total lighter constant pops/corrections and pulls and lunges he does to himself on the collar over a longer period of time till you come up with a new method that will get him settled down. 

I had to do a hard correction once on my reactive dog. It was done by accident which I won't go into details here. Prior to that, I was a total newbie, not wanting to correct too hard and thought my corrections were adequate but the dog was just too reactive to care. By the way you described your trainer's correction, I'm willing to bet mine was even harder. After that one hard correction, her facial expression changed from one of extreme distraught to "oh ok, fine, i give up" and relaxed facial expression. After that one time, all the future encounters were MUCH easier and never do I have to do it that hard again. My dog is still reactive but compared to her first year... this is nothing. 

For me LAT did not work. In the sight of a dog, nothing mattered to my dog. If the strange dog is a mile away, maybe that'd work but I didn't want to consider how long that will take to go from a mile to 20 feet when I have other options.


----------



## lauren43

I haven't read through this whole post and I feel your pain. My last dog was a genetic mess, he reactions were not predictable. You are going to get to a point where you have to decide what you can live with.

Avery could walk in crowds, like your boy. But if we were on a hike and someone showed up on the pathway, he would explode. Or if we went to the parkway on a not so busy day. Any dog would cause him to get overly excited (and embarrassing) and then certain people would weird him out. We could not have ppl over. I had to have a plan to get him introed to new people and eventually, I didn't have ppl over or if I did he was put in the other room.

He had two negative encounters with neighbors and forever hated them. But if you were in his "inner circle" you were good for life...He had a couple of weird nights at my last apartment where his fearful state extended to me, but I realized very quickly ignoring him (pretended he wasn't in the room) was the key and he would recover rather quickly..Avery did not like any attention from anyone outside his inner circle, he did not like being looked at. 

And we were kicked out of Flyball, because even just one other person in the ring would cause him to loose focus. He would have to go to that person and bark at them.

With all that being said. I miss him every single day. 

Here's the day I brought my new car home. This is how he would react meeting a new person except with people he would get close enough to touch them:
IMG 0856 - YouTube

Here he is on an off day with me, before I discovered the answer to this behavior:
IMG 0895 - YouTube

Here he is walking through crowds of ppl with no issues:
http://youtu.be/z2rKKy7_62s

And here he is on a normal happy boy day!
IMG 0446 - YouTube


----------



## lalachka

what a beautiful boy!!!!

yeah, he sounds similar to mine though there are some differences. 

I can live with it the way it is today. it'd be nice to fix but I can go on managing

also, we had a period of 4-5 months when he stopped reacting to people. not sure if the training worked or just coincidence but it was amazing. so liberating 

he's a very affectionate boy. it was enjoyable to watch him with people. and most importantly it was nice to see him relaxed. 

and then he started back again. not sure if it was a coincidence again but he had two fights with a dog (no injuries) and that's about when he started reacting again. 

it was a disappointment. 

we are out now. I used the Ecollar twice already. for dogs both times. 

I will ask my trainer tomorrow whether I'm using it right and whether he thinks I should be using it for this. 

bear, i agree. him lunging isn't too healthy either. I have been praising like crazy the times he didn't react and thst happened twice as well. 

what if he reacts, then gets popped or shocked and stops. should I praise like crazy there too?

ETA I praise and treat like crazy, not just praise


----------



## lalachka

lauren, you said before you discovered the answer to this behavior. what was it? lat?


----------



## lauren43

I think, I know many people here have said it too, that you need to pick a method and stick with it. Period. I think the issue you are having with leash popping, is that many times he's so far over threshold you are dragging him along more so than correcting him. 

Whereas the trainer is doing a quick swift pop and he is getting the message loud and clear. And as you said the trainer has not seen him react the way he does around you.

This is what I hear from your responses. The only way to evaluate a dog is in person. And corrections are not my forte.


----------



## Gib_laut

lalachka said:


> there was a dog downstairs. he saw him before I did.
> 
> so he went off, I zapped on 20, nothing, 30, nothing. by then the dog walked away.
> 
> I can feel 17 and it's not a good feeling. is it even healthy to zap them like this?
> 
> last time I did 40, didn't realize it was that high. he jumped and did stop barking right away.
> 
> I will give it a few more tries before I decide against it.


You should stop before you ruin your dog.


----------



## lauren43

I'm just talking about the behavior of him reacting afraid of me. He had to be ignored completely.

If you can find an item (toy or food) that is higher value than anything outside, LAT can work wonders!

Avery just passed in May, at 4 years old, he was still reactive at this point. I ended up mostly managing him. He lived in a constant state of fear, from freaking out if I dropped something, to being afraid of the blinds, he had a fearful "moment" daily where he'd run and hide on my bed or his... Honestly his comfort with all the vet visits was another red flag that he truly didn't feel good.


----------



## lalachka

Gib_laut said:


> You should stop before you ruin your dog.


Yeah it doesn't feel right. what would you do?
which part is wrong? the level I'm using it on? the way I'm using it?

I will ask my trainer tomorrow but I'm curious

ETA is popping the prong better in your opinion? or you wouldn't use force?


----------



## Gib_laut

lalachka said:


> Yeah it doesn't feel right. what would you do?
> which part is wrong? the level I'm using it on? the way I'm using it?
> 
> I will ask my trainer tomorrow but I'm curious
> 
> ETA is popping the prong better in your opinion? or you wouldn't use force?


Way you're using it. Dog has to very clear why he is getting stimmed. I would only stim for breaking obedience commands. 


If you stim your dog every time he sees another dog then he might think the stim is coming from the other dog. Next thing you know you have a dog that completely freaks out or tail tucked between legs scared of dogs. It's called superstitious behavior. Google it.


----------



## lalachka

Gib_laut said:


> Way you're using it. Dog has to very clear why he is getting stimmed. I would only stim for breaking obedience commands.
> 
> 
> If you stim your dog every time he sees another dog then he might think the stim is coming from the other dog. Next thing you know you have a dog that completely freaks out or tail tucked between legs scared of dogs. It's called superstitious behavior. Google it.


****,I knew about it, superstitious associations, ust didn't think I was doing it. I do say no first. Probably doesn't matter, right?

He only knows sit and down somewhat reliably, doesn't know heel reliably. And I'm reluctant to put him in sit when dogs pass by because then I'm making an event out of it, drawing attention to It. 
I'd like to just keep going, nothing interesting, move on. 

What do you think?


----------



## Bear L

lalachka said:


> bear, i agree. him lunging isn't too healthy either. I have been praising like crazy the times he didn't react and thst happened twice as well.
> 
> what if he reacts, then gets popped or shocked and stops. should I praise like crazy there too?
> 
> ETA I praise and treat like crazy, not just praise


The praise thing depends on the dog. My dog could care less. I just mark it with a positive word - "good girl" and move on. The letting go of stress and sniffing the next smelly thing is much more rewarding to her than my praise and I want her to stay in a calm state.

I'm guessing what may be the problem is your timing and the amount of correction to match that timing (ie. the later you correct, the harder your correction will need to be). Maybe ask the trainer to go for a walk with you and trail behind you to see you do it before you start any other lessons with the trainer so the dog is not in the "training zone". 

For the e-collar, like others have said - your dog has to know what that correction is for or he's going to guess it and may guess it wrong. Have you taught him what the stim means and how to turn it off?


----------



## lalachka

Bear L said:


> The praise thing depends on the dog. My dog could care less. I just mark it with a positive word - "good girl" and move on. The letting go of stress and sniffing the next smelly thing is much more rewarding to her than my praise and I want her to stay in a calm state.
> 
> I'm guessing what may be the problem is your timing and the amount of correction to match that timing (ie. the later you correct, the harder your correction will need to be). Maybe ask the trainer to go for a walk with you and trail behind you to see you do it before you start any other lessons with the trainer so the dog is not in the "training zone".
> 
> For the e-collar, like others have said - your dog has to know what that correction is for or he's going to guess it and may guess it wrong. Have you taught him what the stim means and how to turn it off?


Mine does care and I also treat 

There are no streets there lol. He's in a remote area. Woods and stuff 
So it's always the training zone. I wish he can see what happens. I'm going to try to record. 

I'd think he knows, I say NO. But maybe not. 

Yes, I have conditioned him to the ecollar. I followed ME videos but I only conditioned for leash pressure and recall. I don't know if He knows how to turn it off in this situation. 

I'm assuming he knows he should stop reacting but who knows


----------



## Gib_laut

I wouldn't stim the dog every time you say no or he does something wrong. I would teach only one or two commands using Ecollar and stim him when he disobeys those. If he only gets stimmed for breaking a sit or down then it's clear to him why he's getting stimmed. 

I just would never stim for actually being reactive. That has the potential to end badly.

If you're completely honest with yourself then you'd understand that you'll always have to manage a nervy dog. It's never going to be 100% fixed and trustworthy in public.


----------



## lalachka

Gib_laut said:


> I wouldn't stim the dog every time you say no or he does something wrong. I would teach only one or two commands using Ecollar and stim him when he disobeys those. If he only gets stimmed for breaking a sit or down then it's clear to him why he's getting stimmed.
> 
> I just would never stim for actually being reactive. That has the potential to end badly.
> 
> If you're completely honest with yourself then you'd understand that you'll always have to manage a nervy dog. It's never going to be 100% fixed and trustworthy in public.


I figured it a while ago. After everything I saw him do I will never trust him all the way. 
I just feel bad that he goes through these fits. 

And yes, I'm trying to avoid using ecollar. Not my thing. I have it on for recall because I can't take the chance of him not coming back fast enough. I was hoping to not use it for anything else. 

I will think of a behavior I can ask for when dogs pass by. 
I don't know if I want to make him sit. That's asking too much of him. Setting him up to fail and then stimming for it. 

He does well if I can walk with a bunch of turns when dogs are around. so heel would be the ideal command but it's not reliable enough to stim for.


----------



## Blanketback

What about "Quiet" as a command to use? I'd bet his barking is fueling his excitement, leading to his lunging. Does he bark indoors, where it would be a simple thing to teach? Another thought: have you noticed him behaving differently once he's had a ton of exercise?


----------



## lalachka

Blanketback said:


> What about "Quiet" as a command to use? I'd bet his barking is fueling his excitement, leading to his lunging. Does he bark indoors, where it would be a simple thing to teach? Another thought: have you noticed him behaving differently once he's had a ton of exercise?


No. I haven't noticed but I will check tonight. We are going out with his husky friend and they wear each other every time. I will watch him afterwards 

He barks indoors but not a lot. At one of the cats (worse than dogs, he wants to kill him), turtle and people ringing bell. 

But this might be a good idea thank you. And it will help us when he barks at 2am.


----------



## Blanketback

Lol, yours barks at the turtle! Ha! We have a turtle here too, and originally my dog did bark when the turtle clanked his shell against the glass. Now he realizes this is a normal everyday sound, thankfully. But that would be a great place for you to start  And definitely watch him after the husky playdate, because I'll almost promise you (not quite, don't want to break it, lmao) that you'll see a different behavior. I hope so, anyway.


----------



## lalachka

Blanketback said:


> Lol, yours barks at the turtle! Ha! We have a turtle here too, and originally my dog did bark when the turtle clanked his shell against the glass. Now he realizes this is a normal everyday sound, thankfully. But that would be a great place for you to start  And definitely watch him after the husky playdate, because I'll almost promise you (not quite, don't want to break it, lmao) that you'll see a different behavior. I hope so, anyway.


That would be really nice. Can't wait to see what happens. I do doubt it. He reacts in defense and I thought no matter how tired a dog defense drive doesn't die down. 

He'd bark at mine when she came up to eat. She's trained to eat on her basking area, out of her tank. 
We moved the tank so now he doesn't see her. Also wants to kill my cat. He's leashed in the house outside my room. 
Fun stuff goes on here lol

ETA and we Wil be teaching quiet. Though same problem. He rarely just barks. He reacts. I'd say most of his reactions are in defense. So same problem, doesn't see or hear me.


----------



## LifeofRiley

@Lalachka – If I were you, I would take my focus off of “fixing” a specific problem and focus my efforts/attention on building confidence in the dog and on building a foundation of consistency and trust between you and your dog. 

You sound like you have been all over the place in terms of training techniques/strategies/mindset. I do not think that has been helpful to you or your dog.

Again, if I were you, I would enroll the dog in an Agility Class or perhaps a Rally-O class. These types of classes, I think, do a great job of building communication and connection between you and your dog in a way that focuses on what the dog is doing well vs. what the dog is doing wrong. I believe that these types of classes help to build trust between handler and dog and that trust, once established, carries over to many aspects of everyday life.


----------



## lalachka

I will see if there's a class around here.


----------



## Gib_laut

LifeofRiley said:


> @Lalachka – If I were you, I would take my focus off of “fixing” a specific problem and focus my efforts/attention on building confidence in the dog and on building a foundation of consistency and trust between you and your dog.
> 
> You sound like you have been all over the place in terms of training techniques/strategies/mindset. I do not think that has been helpful to you or your dog.


Agreed :thumbup:


----------



## onyx'girl

classes for a reactive dog may not be the right place at this time....I'd rather stay with the trainer you are working with, and bring in some dogs that are neutral with higher thresholds to proof some behaviors you are dealing with. THEN add in a dog that may show more excitement and proof your dog in that situation. 

The only class I'd go to with a reactive dog would be a Control Unleashed type class or nosework where the dog works independently but can still build confidence in a controlled 'distractive' environment. Agility has too much energy, rally is usually close quarters. Don't set the dog up to fail, stay with a consistent plan.


----------



## lalachka

onyx'girl said:


> classes for a reactive dog may not be the right place at this time....I'd rather stay with the trainer you are working with, and bring in some dogs that are neutral with higher thresholds to proof some behaviors you are dealing with. THEN add in a dog that may show more excitement and proof your dog in that situation.
> 
> The only class I'd go to with a reactive dog would be a Control Unleashed type class or nosework where the dog works independently but can still build confidence in a controlled 'distractive' environment. Agility has too much energy, rally is usually close quarters. Don't set the dog up to fail, stay with a consistent plan.


I don't like classes at all. I'd consider them only for the benefit of being able to work around dogs 

as far as a consistent plan, I'm trying to come up with one. I got some pointers from this thread. still deciding on some things. 

I'm working on his focus and motivation for the last few months. we don't train much, I'm just trying to get him to want to be around me it works some. not like ME ' S dogs though. not even close lol

I'm not sure how to build confidence. I let him win at tug, what else can I do?


----------



## onyx'girl

obedience and even fun tracking with lots of praise tossed in will build confidence. 
Also seeing _you_, as his handler that has his back, will do the same. 
If the dog knows the handler is the one in control, they can relax and not have to feel like they have to be 'on' all the time. This is done thru training, he respects you when you ask more of him and will really try to achieve success. Dogs do like to please, and seldom do they like to play by their own rules(though a few are more about themselves than pleasing their people)


----------



## LifeofRiley

onyx'girl said:


> The only class I'd go to with a reactive dog would be a Control Unleashed type class or nosework where the dog works independently but can still build confidence in a controlled 'distractive' environment. Agility has too much energy, rally is usually close quarters. Don't set the dog up to fail, stay with a consistent plan.


I disagree. The OP lives in NYC, in Chicago I have seen Agility classes -from very well respected agility clubs/trainers - specifically announce that they can accomodate dogs that may be reactive, so I imagine they have the same in NYC. The point of my post re: agility, is that the act of training for, and running novice courses, is all about developing confidence in the dog and in improving communication & trust between handler and dog. These are elements I think the OP needs to work on with her dog. Of course, I am not an expert, so the OP can feel free to disregard... really : )


----------



## onyx'girl

So how do you build confidence when you are putting yoru dog in an environment that is over his threshold? Of course that would be the end goal, but not where I'd put him to begin. I don't do agility now but did an intro to agility with Onyx after we did a CU class, so am curious to know if a dog that shows that type behavior can deal with the energy that is going on in the venue.
My reactive dog couldn't be let off leash unless it was cleared of other dogs(certain breeds set her off BC/Aussie/Shelties) so we did the jump chutes alone, and ran the course on a line. 
I think the other handlers and instructors were intimidated by my dog, which didn't help(she didn't act out because I had her under threshold) The trainers were of NO help, and I didn't expect them to be, with Onyx's issues...we were basically taking this course to proof what the CU class set us up for. 
I didn't continue with agility as I was not happy with the instructors or the venue. The CU class worked for the most part, taught us both how to manage, but it wasn't a cure-all...Onyx is a work in progress, maturity has helped but she'll never be a stable go anywhere type dog.


----------



## selzer

Agility is a good choice. So is Rally. Going through training does not mean you are ready to go to a show where there are tons of people and dogs, etc. Usually the classes I go to have 8 max people in them. A lot have fewer, and the space is really dependent. Usually you can keep your dog far enough away until they are more comfortable with the dogs present, while still working. While doing the exercises, yours is the only dog in the ring, and they can actually feel very comfortable in there. 

Improving a dog's reactivity does not happen in a vacuum. Going to a six or eight week course where other people have dogs that are leashed and under control, can be very helpful. But the big thing is to build the bond between you and the dog, by building confidence in the dog. And Rally and Agility can be good for these.


----------



## onyx'girl

as long as the instructor is cool with a reactive dog in the class. Many aren't or won't deal with that and it upsets the other teams trying to focus on the class. I guess I'd rather go a couple times per week with a one on one before going to a group class. But it all depends on the dog and training. Reactivity is one thing, aggressive behavior is another, and fear/timidness is yet something else. Whatever works for the individual dog.


----------



## selzer

The last Agility class I have been in with was with Joy when she was a puppy -- about 4.5 years ago. There was a nasty tri-color corgi that wanted to eat Joy. I talked the the instructor after the first set of classes, and she felt that since Joy was so young at the time, it would be better not to bring her back at that point because were she to get attacked by the corgi it could be bad. I think the Corgi was competing in agility, as I knew of the dog through a sibling's owner. 

Anyhow, it seems like it just depends on the class/instructor.


----------



## lalachka

I've been able to prevent all reactions I noticed. the times he notices before I do he still reacts. I'm not surprised, just stating a fact. 

this is a huge step from before, when I didn't know how to prevent a reaction. but I'd still like to find a way to make him not want to react. 

and dealing with people reactions Is much harder. with dogs i know that any dog will set him off so I tell him leave it before he's in the zone. 
with people, since he reacts to random people, I'm not able to do that. 

unless I walk while staring at him and look for ears up, stiffening, tail up - I will miss every reaction to a person. 

also, I'm sure sometimes I misread him and he wasn't about to react and I just made a big deal out of him just being curious about someone. 
is that a big deal?

also, when he does leave it I praise like crazy and treat him. working well so far except the missed reactions. 

got a bunch of videos of him running with a few dogs at the park last night. bad quality, it was dark. can post if anyone wants to see. he knows the dogs though. 


oh yeah, one more thing. he guards from other dogs. Like If a dog goes near my bag (with his stuff) he will lunge at them. also, if i feed another dog or pet another dog (he's better at this though)

I know he shouldn't be guarding anything and I should be able to pet any dog. just saying what else he does. he did it last night so I remembered 

basically, my doggie has me well trained. I pet dogs if he isn't looking, I make sure my bag is on my back if there are dogs around and on and on lol


----------



## Lilie

onyx'girl said:


> as long as the instructor is cool with a reactive dog in the class.


I'm not convinced that this dog is actually a reactive dog at all. It sounds more like a confused, poorly trained young dog that doesn't have a clue what it's owner wants - not meaning to offend the OP, but she's all over the place with this dog. She freely admits she hasn't been training the dog, yet she's concentrating on correction methods. MAJOR correction methods - prong & e-collar. The trainer she uses doesn't see the dog as being reactive, so the OP second guesses them. 

The OP freely admits that she watches and waits for things for the dog to react to. I suspect the OP is reacting more than the dog is reacting. 

I don't think the dog has a clue what it is that is expected from it. Sitting in a beginner Agility class would be good for the OP and the dog. One of the very first things we were taught was how to ignore the other dogs. The dogs learn to watch the handler for instructions and not the other dogs. The handler learns that EVERY movement they make means something to their dog.


----------



## lalachka

I'd be very glad if you were right. I also freely admitted I don't know what I'm doing. 

Few notes. He has basic training, sit, down, recall. I said I'm not training much now, I went back to basics which following ME's methods means engagement and motivation. 

Also, this trainer hasn't seen the reactions. But I do agree and hope that he's just confused. I also think when he first reacted I didn't do the right things and made him reactive. 

And me watching him is the only way to prevent reactions. When I don't watch him he just reacts. It's def not the case of me expecting it and him obliging. 

Unless I watch him he will have 5-10 fits a day. I only started watching him 2 months ago when a diff trainer told me to. She said my dog gives off tons of warnings and I miss them because I'm not paying attention. She's right. I'm able to prevent any reaction I notice in time. 


Once I was training him downstairs by the entrance and had him in a sit. Some girls were passing by. I looked away for a moment and he lunged from the sit. I'm not making this stuff up. I have many stories. He has some fear issues. His hair goes up when He reacts.


----------



## lalachka

Fee more. Sometimes we open the door and someone is walking up the stairs. He goes into a fit. He's not feeding off me, I'm caught off guard. These days I look in the peep hole before going out. 

Does this make me paranoid and expecting reactions? You bet. But since this happened 30 times I think I have reasons to be paranoid. 

He also lunges at kids. Yep, I def watch him when any kid passes by

This is the case of what came first. His reactions came first and my paranoia came after.


----------



## Lilie

They are NOT fits!!! Your dog is being disobedient! Perhaps he is reactive. Nothing to be proud of. But a true reactive dog isn't reactive sometimes and not other times. A disobedient dog does as he pleases. When he pleases. As he pleases.


----------



## lalachka

Where did you see me be proud? He reacts to every dog and some people. In defense. I don't know if that makes him reactive or a nerve bag but he's genuinely worried about what he's seeing


----------



## Jax08

Lilie said:


> But a true reactive dog isn't reactive sometimes and not other times..


Since I have a reactive dog, I'm going to respectfully disagree with this. Much of her reaction can be measured by the other dog's body language. Reactive is reactive. It's managed thru obedience.


----------



## Lilie

Jax08 said:


> Since I have a reactive dog, I'm going to respectfully disagree with this. Much of her reaction can be measured by the other dog's body language. Reactive is reactive. It's managed thru obedience.


True - and I don't want to drudge back through this thread - but the OP stated she takes her dog to a trainer. The trainer doesn't see the dog as being reactive. I would suspect that the trainer is requiring obedience from the dog not waiting until the dog reacts and then correct. The OP is waiting for the dog to react to it's environment.


----------



## lalachka

No, the trainer said he'd have to see a reaction to say for sure. We tried getting a reaction to a person and couldn't. They're random, as I told you. 

However, we were able to get a reaction to a dog because he reacts to any dog and he confirmed that my dog is in defense. 

He then said that I should correct him any time he does that. 


Problem is that it took one pop to shut him up, he's always easy around trainers. When I'm alone it takes lots of force, yanking and dragging him along. 

So I'm trying to avoid reactions by watching him and preventing them before he goes in the zone.


----------



## lalachka

Actually, not true. It depends on the dog. Some dogs I can stop him pretty easy. And others it takes a lot. Size has nothing to do with it. Probably the dog's behavior does. He was going crazy at a few small dogs that were barking at him


----------



## DJEtzel

Jax08 said:


> Since I have a reactive dog, I'm going to respectfully disagree with this. Much of her reaction can be measured by the other dog's body language. Reactive is reactive. It's managed thru obedience.


I do have to agree with this. Frag reacted to people in his growling fits randomly, and dogs as he got better, where only dogs that were throwing fits themselves, would stare, or were really close. 

There are definitely varying levels of reactivity, especially in an unsure/not confident dog.


----------



## Lilie

DJEtzel said:


> I do have to agree with this. Frag reacted to people in his growling fits randomly, and dogs as he got better, where only dogs that were throwing fits themselves, would stare, or were really close.
> 
> There are definitely varying levels of reactivity, especially in an unsure/not confident dog.


Frag is a trained dog. You had a foundation to build on. You weren't jacking around with CORRECTIONS on Frag. When Frag reacted, were you walking around in stealth mode waiting for the reaction? Did Frag just magically know what OB was, or did you spend your time training your dog, building a foundation - working THROUGH reactions not building on them?


----------



## Lilie

lalachka said:


> Problem is that it took one pop to shut him up, he's always easy around trainers. When I'm alone it takes lots of force, yanking and dragging him along.


THIS is the point I'm trying to make. THIS is what the OP needs to work on. Not flipping around correction methods to see which one works best. WHY is her dog ignoring her? 

One pop stops this crazed, reactive fits - when the trainer does it. BUT the OP is now using an e-collar. Because......


----------



## lalachka

lalachka said:


> Actually, not true. It depends on the dog. Some dogs I can stop him pretty easy. And others it takes a lot. Size has nothing to do with it. Probably the dog's behavior does. He was going crazy at a few small dogs that were barking at him


I thought about it and added this

The dog we used at the trainer's just sat there. So that's why it was easy. It's distance and dog's behavior that affects the strength of his reaction. 


But I said many times, I'm a beginner and made many mistakes. I'm trying to learn to fix them.


----------



## DJEtzel

Lilie said:


> Frag is a trained dog. You had a foundation to build on. You weren't jacking around with CORRECTIONS on Frag. When Frag reacted, were you walking around in stealth mode waiting for the reaction? Did Frag just magically know what OB was, or did you spend your time training your dog, building a foundation - working THROUGH reactions not building on them?


I definitely see what you are saying now! Sorry, I was not reading between the lines.


----------



## lalachka

I'm not using an ecollar. I used it one night and decided against it. 

You're trying too hard


----------



## Lilie

lalachka said:


> I'm not using an ecollar. I used it one night and decided against it.
> 
> You're trying too hard


No, my friend, you aren't trying hard enough for your dog.


----------



## lalachka

You have no idea what I'm trying and how hard


----------



## Lilie

lalachka said:


> I'm working on his focus and motivation for the last few months. *we don't train much*, I'm just trying to get him to want to be around me it works some. not like ME ' S dogs though. not even close lol
> 
> I'm not sure how to build confidence. I let him win at tug, what else can I do?


You are right, I don't know how hard you try. I can only go by what you've written. 

You are saying you want to stop your dog from having fits. I'm telling you it starts with you training your dog. If you are looking for some magic wand - or smaller prongs - or a higher stem - then it's your dog. Do it. You can already see how well that's working for you.


----------



## lalachka

Lilie said:


> You are right, I don't know how hard you try. I can only go by what you've written.
> 
> You are saying you want to stop your dog from having fits. I'm telling you it starts with you training your dog. If you are looking for some magic wand - or smaller prongs - or a higher stem - then it's your dog. Do it. You can already see how well that's working for you.


You want to keep skipping the parts that don't prove your theories - go on. It says in the same paragraph that I'm working on motivation following Michael Ellis videos (ME) 

He feels as though you should learn to motivate your dog before you do any training. 

.we are out doing things every night, rain or snow, for 2 hours. I don't feel I'm able to get his attention the way ME does with his dogd (also said in the same quote) so I haven't moved on to training. Though he knows the basic commands. 

We are playing food games, tug, I'm trying to develop a reward system by following what he teaches. I'm working on the foundation, on how to make sure he wants to work for me. So that I can always have something he wants. 



And once again, on reactions, after thinking about it, the dog at the trainer's was sitting and not moving, that's why it was easy to stop him. Now that I thought about it, sometimes I'm able to stop him with a pop. 
But some dogs scare him so much that I can't.


----------



## selzer

I think that there are a lot of problems:

You're inexperienced
You're looking for advice on the net
You're watching videos
You're working with a trainer that maybe you don't trust
You're checking through the peep hole
You're afraid of doing the wrong thing.
You're getting very defensive when people are trying to help you. 

The dog has no confidence at all in you to protect him. It isn't easy to fool a dog about your emotions, but you have to try. You have to step out in confidence. If the prong collar gives you enough control over the dog NOT to let him get into a state of barking and lunging, than use it. 

The thing is, you need to train your dog on basics where there is no distractions, and be very consistent, very positive, very engaging and interesting and fun and the whole nine yards. And when you go out, try to see before the dog does things that are likely to make him react. Instead of waiting for a reaction, back up and call your dog front, have him watch you. Have him sit. Have him do a little obedience -- this is ONLY if you have acted before he reacts. 

If he gets to the point of reacting, then you have missed your threshold, and the thing to do, is to matter of factly say, "Eh!", maybe a quick pop with the prong, but whatever you do, keep moving. Move so that you are not running away or backing away from the problem, but you are not decreasing the distance between you and the problem. So if you are on the side walk and they are on the side walk. veer off the path toward the street, but keep moving and get him past the object before he has a chance to get into one of his fits.

A reactive dog is a nerve bag. They are just manifesting it by barking and lunging, rather than cowering behind you. The cure is to build the confidence of the dog, and often times the answer to that is in building the confidence of the owner. Three years from now, your dog is going to step out of the door with you and be fine, either because he has grown enough confidence in himself and in you, or because you will have learned to manage the environment enough and have confidence in yourself and in him.

I am not a Cesar fan, but a LOT of dogs can be turned around just by the demeaner of the person doing the handling. Step out in confidence. Be the leader. Carry a stick if you have to. Take a self-defense course it can build you up. And when you go out with your dog, fake it if necessary, but go out with the mindset that you are in charge of it all. 

I think you have to decide whether your trainer knows more than you do about stuff or not. If she does not, dump her and get another trainer. If she does, than follow what she is trying to do with you. TALK to her if you do not understand something, or are having a problem with something. And forget the rest of the venues for advice and training. 

Keep a diary, a daily journal. And when after six months, after a grueling day with your dog, go back and read where you were, and where you are now with him. If the progress isn't enough, decide then if you want to go with another trainer, different classes, a different viewpoint.


----------



## lalachka

So there's no confusion. I follow what my trainer says. It's a he (I had a few) 
But he hasn't seen everything I'm seeing. Also, when my dog reacted to a dog we used over there and he stopped after a pop I attributed it to the fact that the trainer was there. 

It took me a few days and reading something here to understand why he was so easy to stop. That's where the forum helps me. 

I'm not asking for advice in the sense that I will disregard what my trainer said and do something I was told here. I get some ideas and reading and writing helps me understand some things. 


And again, I'm able to stop any reaction I notice in time. I see a dog before he does - and I can make him not react. If he sees the dog or person before I do - then it takes more force which I'm trying to avoid. 

I can put on all the fronts I want, he will react. There's been times I was walking and reading, not scared of anything, not paying attention. He reacted if he saw a trigger. 

He's not feeding off me. Maybe he was and that's how it started but at this point it's a habit, a learned reaction.


----------



## lalachka

If I notice the dog before he does - that's what I do, watch me, good boy, heel, and I can avoid the reaction. 

Once he reacted and a dog is really scary to him - It takes much more than Eh and a pop. It takes yanking to get away from there. 
I def don't stick around and make a scene. I keep moving but to keep moving I have to YANK him. So it's a setback and an ugly scene

That's why the peep holes and looking around corners. The only way for me to work him is to notice before he does. 

Or there's another way? 2 trainer's told me to watch for triggers and notice before he does. Why is that a problem?


----------



## lalachka

Maybe someone doesn't understand the peep holes. 

Many times (20-30?) we'd open the front door to go out and someone would be standing there opening their front door or coming up the stairs. It's a tiny space. So he'd go into a fit. Yanking, popping, saying things. Nothing works, he doesn't see, hear or feel. So I drag him inside and wait for him to calm down. 


Once, a family was coming up the stairs. 4 people and they were a minute apart, so I didn't know someone else was coming. 

Drag him in, he calmed down, opened the door, another person, another fit. Drag him in, calmed down. Again, go back out, one more coming up. Fit, drag him back in. Go back out. One more. 
After this I started looking in the peep hole. 

So I'm interested to know what the experts would do. Keep opening front door without looking and risk a fit if anyone is there? Or look in the peep hole and then at least get a chance to work on it. 

Answer this question. Since you're picking on the peep hole.


----------



## Steve Strom

I like to keep things real simple Lala. I would forget all the engagement stuff, all the videos, everything. I would just teach him to sit on command and not move till he's released to. 

Do it away from active dogs, add your own distractions that he will want to break the sit for, but not go crazy over. When I walk my dogs, no matter what their temperament and we come across another dog walking with someone, I automatically move to the left and sit my dog. I don't try to keep moving because I don't trust the other person to control their dog and I don't want them coming up from behind. With my dog sitting on my left, I'm between everything and just that much more in control of it all.

I don't look for triggers or anything else. If he's sitting, everything is fine, I don't care what the other dog is doing as long as they don't make contact.


----------



## lalachka

I thought about doing this. I posted earlier, I'm afraid that by making him sit when a dog goes by I'm making it an event. I'd like a 'keep going, nothing special' approach. 

But it does sound appealing because it's breaking the sit he's being punished for


----------



## lalachka

And why forget the videos lol? This is separate from reactivity. I like to have him have fun during training. Any trainer I go to isn't too interested in it. They make the dog do what's told. To me that sounds like the easy way out. Maybe I'm wrong


----------



## lalachka

Steve, one more. With dogs it's easier, any dog I see I will do what I decide on (sit, keep walking, whatever) 
Any dog sets him off so I work on every dog.

What about people? It's random. If I make him sit for every person we will never leave the house. Did you see the block I live on?


----------



## JakodaCD OA

why not keep going and nothing special approach.

I don't want to sound harsh, but I think we've all gone thru this whole thing with you and the dog months ago, you got mad and left, your back and nothing has changed.

The dog sounds totally confused, your doing this, then doing that, stick to one thing and GET ON HIM, stop placating, confusing and babying him..STICK TO ONE THING, and make it work. 

Maybe you should think about sending him off for training/reconditioning because what your doing with him isn't working for you..Just my opinion


----------



## onyx'girl

Or lala should be sent away for training. The dog can learn easily enough when he isn't confused and conflicted.


----------



## Steve Strom

By sticking to the one, simple thing you'll get so good at it and he'll be so solid with it, it'll make it easy to do anything else you want afterwards. If there's a lot of people, you may be sitting there for a while. Be patient, consistent, and don't look for any specific time frame.


----------



## lalachka

JakodaCD OA said:


> why not keep going and nothing special approach.
> 
> I don't want to sound harsh, but I think we've all gone thru this whole thing with you and the dog months ago, you got mad and left, your back and nothing has changed.
> 
> The dog sounds totally confused, your doing this, then doing that, stick to one thing and GET ON HIM, stop placating, confusing and babying him..STICK TO ONE THING, and make it work.
> 
> Maybe you should think about sending him off for training/reconditioning because what your doing with him isn't working for you..Just my opinion


I won't send him away. 
I got mad at something else, nothing to do with training questions. It was a thread about suicide 

We made progress. I'm able to stop reactions if I notice them in time. 

I tried sticking to one thing, saw it didn't work after a few weeks or so, try another. How long do I stick with it? I saw many trainers and tried many things.


Why not keep going and nothing special? Because if he already reacted then I'm dragging him away. I'm not mad, don't make a scene, just keep walking but he's yanking me and I'm yanking him. Ugly and violent. 

If I look around and notice things in time we are ok. I guess I'd like him to stop reacting whether I'm looking or not.


----------



## lalachka

onyx'girl said:


> Or lala should be sent away for training. The dog can learn easily enough when he isn't confused and conflicted.


Yeah I know))))) but I go for training regularly. I thought they are training me. I guess I'm dense))))))


----------



## onyx'girl

Meaningful corrections are much fairer than a nagging dragging.
Stay with your trainer, and use his methods only, if you don't understand ask questions to him. He sees your dog, we are only assuming here.


----------



## lalachka

Steve Strom said:


> By sticking to the one, simple thing you'll get so good at it and he'll be so solid with it, it'll make it easy to do anything else you want afterwards. If there's a lot of people, you may be sitting there for a while. Be patient, consistent, and don't look for any specific time frame.


I mean yeah. I dealt with it for over a year I can go for another few years. 

I got a few ideas from here. Will try them out. Yesterday no reactions ( I stopped them)

Hopefully one day


----------



## lalachka

onyx'girl said:


> Meaningful corrections are much fairer than a nagging dragging.
> Stay with your trainer, and use his methods only, if you don't understand ask questions to him. He sees your dog, we are only assuming here.


He did say that. That I'm not correcting hard enough. I will try.


----------



## Bear L

Can you meet your trainer at the location that will most likely have triggers for your dog and have him watch you from a distance? If the dog is fine in a sterile environment, no point to keep repeating that.


----------



## lalachka

Can I break his neck if I pop hard?


----------



## selzer

How long?

If the very first time your dog decides it doesn't like something and puts on a doofus act, you give a strong, no nonsense correction and move on immediately, then likely you're done. It might not change the fact that the dog is uneasy around other dogs, but since he isn't putting on his show, he may actually have enough close encounters with other dogs to find out that they are not all hairy monsters, and he has learned that what he tried doesn't work. 

But, we are past that tiny window of opportunity. Every time the dog barks, lunges, sticks his hair up and acts like the Tasmanian Devil and comes away unscathed it is reinforcing this behavior, and it has been months, and it is going to take TIME to recondition him to a different frame of mind. 

I think what they are doing is having you correct the dog every time he does this. Personally, if the dog is already going ape, correction or no correction you have failed. Because the correction can be attributed to the situation, people, dogs, children, and not his behavior. 

I think you want to really get there before there is a reaction. And if leaving your apartment is that traumatic. Put a cloth muzzle on your dog and get the heck out of there. Don't drag him back in and "calm him down." Use a muzzle and get out of the building. Going backwards is generally increasing his general uneasiness about your ability to protect him. Put a muzzle on before checking your peep hole. And I would then forget about the peep hole. Go out of the building whether there are people or not. Then remove the muzzle and go into the mode where you try to act before he reacts. Before coming back into your building, put the muzzle on again. 

It may not be forever.


----------



## lalachka

Bear L said:


> Can you meet your trainer at the location that will most likely have triggers for your dog and have him watch you from a distance? If the dog is fine in a sterile environment, no point to keep repeating that.


He's in the woods and charges much more to come down But good idea. My friend goes there too and has same problems, dogs don't act out there. I will see if she wants to chip to bring him down


----------



## selzer

Move to the woods.


----------



## lalachka

Selzer, exactly!!! If he reacted it's a setback. That's why I go out of my way (peep hole, around corners, looking around) to avoid reactions. If I notice before he does then I can work on them. 

I'd do the muzzle but he'd react anyway just won't get a chance to bite. Isn't that a setback?


----------



## lalachka

Thank you though!!!! You're right, going back inside was wrong.


----------



## Bear L

lalachka said:


> Can I break his neck if I pop hard?


I'd be more worry about you desensitizing the dog to the prong collar. The longer you prolong this pop-without-effect process the closer you are to that day. 

It may be worthwhile having one lesson out in the real world than multiple lessons in the trainer's place. That will also let you know if your trainer is worth her price!


----------



## lalachka

Bear L said:


> I'd be more worry about you desensitizing the dog to the prong collar. The longer you prolong this pop-without-effect process the closer you are to that day.
> 
> It may be worthwhile having one lesson out in the real world than multiple lessons in the trainer's place. That will also let you know if your trainer is worth her price!


Just texted my friend. I can't afford it alone. It's like 500 or more. He's over an hour away no traffic


----------



## lalachka

selzer said:


> Move to the woods.


Thought about it many times since I got my dog.


----------



## selzer

lalachka said:


> Selzer, exactly!!! If he reacted it's a setback. That's why I go out of my way (peep hole, around corners, looking around) to avoid reactions. If I notice before he does then I can work on them.
> 
> I'd do the muzzle but he'd react anyway just won't get a chance to bite. Isn't that a setback?



Yes and no. The dog has to pee outside. To get outside, you have to leave your door. If you are taking 30 minutes several times a day just getting out your door and booking it down the steps so your dog can potty, then it is a setback no matter how you manage it. I would think the thing to do is to minimize the set back. With the muzzle, he can't hurt anyone and that is the main thing. You need to get from A to B, and if that means muzzling the dog and then going through whatever he fears most, that's what it means. At least you won't be dwelling on it. Why I said a cloth muzzle, is because a basket muzzle will allow him to bark and growl, and carry on. The cloth muzzle will shut his trap, and his insanity will make it harder on him, I am not saying it will force him to behave, but it will get him out and past the problem with the least amount of hoopla.


----------



## lalachka

selzer said:


> Yes and no. The dog has to pee outside. To get outside, you have to leave your door. If you are taking 30 minutes several times a day just getting out your door and booking it down the steps so your dog can potty, then it is a setback no matter how you manage it. I would think the thing to do is to minimize the set back. With the muzzle, he can't hurt anyone and that is the main thing. You need to get from A to B, and if that means muzzling the dog and then going through whatever he fears most, that's what it means. At least you won't be dwelling on it. Why I said a cloth muzzle, is because a basket muzzle will allow him to bark and growl, and carry on. The cloth muzzle will shut his trap, and his insanity will make it harder on him, I am not saying it will force him to behave, but it will get him out and past the problem with the least amount of hoopla.


Lol no we don't take 30 mins. That time it was 5 mins, usually a minute with all the sits. 

But I still like your idea. And I don't like having to go back in. Muzzle it is. On my way to get one. 

I doubt he'd bite. He would've bitten by now but still. Just in case. And I like that it shuts him up. And he'd be busy trying to get it off. 


Thank you!!!! This board helps a lot. I got many ideas from here.


----------



## lalachka

Hmm. Another question. I'd get a basket muzzle too and would maybe stop worrying about people approaching and talking to us. 

Is it a good idea to put a basket muzzle on him and see what he does when people approach or talk or whatever sets him off. 

Or will a muzzle make him feel vulnerable and he'd react in situations that he usually wouldn't


----------



## Twyla

lalachka said:


> Hmm. Another question. I'd get a basket muzzle too and would maybe stop worrying about people approaching and talking to us.
> 
> Is it a good idea to put a basket muzzle on him and see what he does when people approach or talk or whatever sets him off.
> 
> Or will a muzzle make him feel vulnerable and he'd react in situations that he usually wouldn't


Do it. Don't do the on and off, have him wear it. You will be more relaxed as a bonus and better able to give your dog direction without the worry/panic of what to do if your dog reacts.


----------



## lalachka

Twyla said:


> Do it. Don't do the on and off, have him wear it. You will be more relaxed as a bonus and better able to give your dog direction without the worry/panic of what to do if your dog reacts.


Yeah I like the idea. This is something else I've been thinking about. About to order one. 

I want to get a leather basket. Any good ones or they're all the same?


----------



## selzer

A basket muzzle is good for aggressive dogs. It allows the dog to breathe while exercising and aggressive dogs need the exercise. I really don't know if it is a good idea to have people approach a muzzled dog. A reactive dog is on the edge. And it is best in general not to push them over the precipice. I am sure some dogs, by flooding them when they can't bite, only snarl and bark, might get the reaction that you want. But I think it is just as likely to go the other way, and have the dog that much farther out of his mind with terror. I don't really like flooding. 

Also a dog with a large basket muzzle is viewed as aggressive. It will change people's smell. They will be fearful of the dog as they are approaching which will play into the dog's fear. 

The muzzle in the hall is small, black, and you are not trying to engage with your neighbors, you are trying to walk your dog past them to get out of the door, so he can do his business.


----------



## Bear L

lalachka said:


> Just texted my friend. I can't afford it alone. It's like 500 or more. He's over an hour away no traffic


Is there no place to meet closer to his place but still may have the triggers? A nearby popular store?


----------



## lalachka

Bear L said:


> Is there no place to meet closer to his place but still may have the triggers? A nearby popular store?


Store MIGHT work for me but won't for her. She has problems inside her house as well so she would want him to come over. 

Also, we live in a crazy packed neighborhood. I doubt anything close to him is the same intensity. 

If we already going to do this then we need to make sure they react.


----------



## Twyla

lalachka said:


> Yeah I like the idea. This is something else I've been thinking about. About to order one.
> 
> I want to get a leather basket. Any good ones or they're all the same?


Something like this one 



 . Check the sizes. Keep in mind, this is to work to the side of your sidewalk, not in the middle of the crowd with your dog over threshold. Take the time to condition your dog to wearing it, instead of just putting it on and going.

As for your trainer, honestly if she isn't able to work with you in the real world, find another trainer. How can she know what you need help with on training, if she doesn't see it?


----------



## lalachka

Twyla said:


> Something like this one Amazon.com : Italian Basket Muzzle - Size 8 - Tan : Pet Muzzles : Pet Supplies . Check the sizes. Keep in mind, this is to work to the side of your sidewalk, not in the middle of the crowd with your dog over threshold. Take the time to condition your dog to wearing it, instead of just putting it on and going.
> 
> As for your trainer, honestly if she isn't able to work with you in the real world, find another trainer. How can she know what you need help with on training, if she doesn't see it?


It's another problem we have, finding a good trainer. I've been through 6. I loved one of them but he's in CA. Just came here once. 

I stopped with pet trainers after the 3rd, now sport trainers only. 

Anyway, I like the Leerburg leather basket. Looks just like that but leather. 

Why not over the threshold? I mean yeah, my goal is to keep him under but I Also want to see how he does if someone comes up to us. 

He's fine in crowds, as long as he's ignored. It's people coming up to us or blocking his path that scare him. Not always. That's why I wanted the muzzle so I can stop walking away just in case and see what exactly sets him off


----------



## lalachka

selzer said:


> A basket muzzle is good for aggressive dogs. It allows the dog to breathe while exercising and aggressive dogs need the exercise. I really don't know if it is a good idea to have people approach a muzzled dog. A reactive dog is on the edge. And it is best in general not to push them over the precipice. I am sure some dogs, by flooding them when they can't bite, only snarl and bark, might get the reaction that you want. But I think it is just as likely to go the other way, and have the dog that much farther out of his mind with terror. I don't really like flooding.
> 
> Also a dog with a large basket muzzle is viewed as aggressive. It will change people's smell. They will be fearful of the dog as they are approaching which will play into the dog's fear.
> 
> The muzzle in the hall is small, black, and you are not trying to engage with your neighbors, you are trying to walk your dog past them to get out of the door, so he can do his business.


I just saw this. Yeah, that's my worry. My friend's dog wears a muzzle though and people are not scared at all lol. She had a trainer at petco hassle them while the dog growled through the muzzle. I think people relax thinking the dog can't do much. 

I will think some more on this. We also have dogs in the building. 

Also, the muzzle I'm buying is black. Leather black basket muzzle. Not easily seen. 

I don't think he'd bite. But I'm sure all owners whose dogs bite didn't think they would.


----------



## Bear L

Or get a doggie wear that says something like "Dog need space". 

Yellow vest here:
Dog In Training Vest - The Pawsitive Dog


----------



## lalachka

Bear L said:


> Or get a doggie wear that says something like "Dog need space".
> 
> Yellow vest here:
> Dog In Training Vest - The Pawsitive Dog


No one will look or care. 

I will buy the muzzle but will sleep on wearing it. I have to measure him when I get home.


----------



## lalachka

If anything, a vest or a muzzle will just make people want to come up and ask a bunch of questions. 

Why a vest? What is he training for? Why in need of space? Aggressive? I'm good with dogs, let me try.


----------



## Twyla

lalachka said:


> It's another problem we have, finding a good trainer. I've been through 6. I loved one of them but he's in CA. Just came here once.
> 
> I stopped with pet trainers after the 3rd, now sport trainers only.
> 
> Anyway, I like the Leerburg leather basket. Looks just like that but leather.
> 
> *Why not over the threshold?* I mean yeah, my goal is to keep him under but I Also want to see how he does if someone comes up to us.
> 
> He's fine in crowds, as long as he's ignored. It's people coming up to us or blocking his path that scare him. Not always. That's why I wanted the muzzle so I can stop walking away just in case and see what exactly sets him off


When your dog is over threshold, he isn't learning anything. His thinking brain has checked out and he is running on instinct. Each time he reacts, it sets the behavior even more. 

What you want him to do is learn that you have it handled, part of building trust and confidence. You don't have it handled if he is over threshold. 

The muzzle is there to prevent bites and allow you to relax enough to think ahead and work with your dog. It isn't used to allow him to go over threshold and react.

Have someone walk with you, recording the walk. You want to see how and what your dog is doing. You want to see yourself as well; your actions, how you relate to your dog and the surroundings. A video like this can be eye opening.

If you are staying with your current trainer, get on board with their methods, if you disagree with them, discuss the reasons why they want to use the particular method, why you disagree or want to move to something else. If you still can't agree on training methods, it is time to find another trainer. The multiple changes in training methods is confusing your dog; and yourself as well I imagine.


----------



## lalachka

I understand that keeping him under threshold is the goal. The reason I was thinking about a muzzle is because now if anyone walks towards us with the intention to talk or makes a comment about him I tense up a bit and start acting unnatural. I reach down and cover his mouth, hold the leash closer and so on. 

Maybe he wasn't going to react half of the time but I'm not taking a chance with people And kids. With dogs I can but not with people. 

I'm almost sure he won't bite meaning I'd be able to stop him in time but first, I don't want to scare anyone. And second, any reaction is a setback. 

So in was hoping to have the muzzle on him that way I can just sit there and see what he does. So I can see what exactly sets him off. 


It's nit easy to find a good trainer. I haven't had luck. The one I have now is a top sport competitor so I can at least be sure he knows what he's doing. But it hasn't worked out well because I can't get there often enough and he doesn't react over there. 


I'm going to a club this Sunday, there's lots of dogs there and people that know what they're doing. I'm hoping I will get some answers. 

For now, I'm doing what the trainer told me. Pop if I missed the reaction. But my goal is to prevent them. 

Also, if I'm able to prevent it then I praise and treat


----------



## lalachka

About recording. Yes, I decided to try to record. I don't have anyone to ask But I will tape a phone to my body


----------



## lalachka

I have a video of him going after my cat. It's the same thing but at people. Want to see?


----------



## lalachka

Actually, I just watched it and it's not that bad. If I had a leash on him a pop would've stopped it. 

Maybe I'm not popping in the right direction. Sometimee he ends up on his back feet and I'm yanking him, just looks bad. People are looking on in horror.

. Anyway, we are doing ok so far. I will see how tonight goes.


----------



## E.Hatch

I'm pretty new to the training world but I do know this. If you're "pretty" sure your dog won't bite and your reasoning behind this is that you'd be quick enough to stop him I think you're mistaken. 

Dogs are way faster than us.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## lalachka

E.Hatch said:


> I'm pretty new to the training world but I do know this. If you're "pretty" sure your dog won't bite and your reasoning behind this is that you'd be quick enough to stop him I think you're mistaken.
> 
> Dogs are way faster than us.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Lol I know he's way faster than me. I mean he's on leash and I can pull him off. And He hasn't bitten yet. So I do feel pretty safe. 

But I know a dog can bite at any point in their life. If I thought he can't do damage I wouldn't worry about it this much.

If I had a reactive Chihuahua I wouldn't be on the forums asking About aggression. I know he can do lots of damage or even kill before I can do anything.


----------



## David Winners

Has a trainer walked this dog in public, with you out of the picture or following behind? 

If so, how did the dog respond to situations that would normally cause a reaction? 

David Winners


----------



## lalachka

David Winners said:


> Has a trainer walked this dog in public, with you out of the picture or following behind?
> 
> If so, how did the dog respond to situations that would normally cause a reaction?
> 
> David Winners


Nope. I will ask next time I'm with a trainer

It would be interesting to see what happens


----------



## David Winners

I just think you may have a picture in your head about how the dog is going to act, and everything about you is driving the dog to that reaction. 

I may be totally off the mark, but it definitely happens. 

David Winners


----------



## lalachka

So what if it turns out they don't react with s trainer. Do I give my dog to the trainer then?

I can't change my personality.


----------



## lalachka

David Winners said:


> I just think you may have a picture in your head about how the dog is going to act, and everything about you is driving the dog to that reaction.
> 
> I may be totally off the mark, but it definitely happens.
> 
> David Winners


I do for sure. But can you blame me after everything I saw him do?

I most def see a dog and imagine what's about to go down. Or see a person walking up to us and seeing what he's about to do. 

How do I fix this?


----------



## onyx'girl

David Winners said:


> I just think you may have a picture in your head about how the dog is going to act, and everything about you is driving the dog to that reaction.
> 
> I may be totally off the mark, but it definitely happens.
> 
> David Winners


I completely agree...


> That's why I go out of my way (peep hole, around corners, looking around) to avoid reactions. If I notice before he does then I can work on them.





> Maybe I'm not popping in the right direction. Sometimee he ends up on his back feet and I'm yanking him, just looks bad. People are looking on in horror.





> now if anyone walks towards us with the intention to talk or makes a comment about him I tense up a bit and start acting unnatural. I reach down and cover his mouth, hold the leash closer and so on.


----------



## selzer

lalachka said:


> So what if it turns out they don't react with s trainer. Do I give my dog to the trainer then?
> 
> I can't change my personality.


Lala, there are so many times when the trainer will know (and not necessarily say) that the problem is not with the dog but the handler. It would not be uncommon if this were the case. 

LOL, when I was getting my first RNs, I had a nearly perfect run with both my bitches, and when I looked at the score, one had a 90 and the other an 89. I was rocked. I asked the judge. She said, the dogs were great, I love your dogs. I want to get them a new handler. Welcome to showing in the AKC! But really, I had made the mistake. In real life -- life outside the ring, we often are the problem more so than our dog. 

That's not the problem. The problem is not knowing that we are the problem. If we _know _that we are the problem, then we can change our approach, we can try something different. We can work at our end of the story, and help our dog build its trust in us. 

I am not saying you are the problem. I am saying you may be. This does not mean you have to get rid of the dog. It means that continuing to do what you are doing is only going to make things worse. And correcting the dog when we are at fault, will not improve the dog's confidence or trust in us. 

So, it is good to know. If the trainer can take the dog down the street and the dog doesn't react, then you need to work on what it is that you are communicating to the dog that the trainer is not.

Shooting the messenger won't help in any way.


----------



## lalachka

What about times when I didn't see the dog. Sometimes I walk while reading and I come back to earth because he reacts. 

But I do expect reactions once I see a dog or a person in a situation that I think he might react to


----------



## lalachka

We are going out now. Will see what we cone across. I will watch myself.


----------



## onyx'girl

your nerves are going right down the leash to him. Everyone keeps telling you that you need to show confidence in your handling so he will feel that you have his back. He needs to look to you for safety so he won't feel that need to be 'on' all the time. 
Step up your handling skills, keep him engaged and in obedience when you think he's possibly going to go off. don't correct for the reactive behaviors but for the lack of obedience. And make it worthy, not a nag.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Reading what? Him? ( I hope)


----------



## selzer

lalachka said:


> What about times when I didn't see the dog. Sometimes I walk while reading and I come back to earth because he reacts.
> 
> But I do expect reactions once I see a dog or a person in a situation that I think he might react to


If you have a reactive dog, then you have no business multitasking on a walk. So don't walk and read. How do you even do that. You walk with your nose in a book or with audiobooks and are not paying attention to what the dog is doing? 

If he is reactive, how can you possibly stay below his threshold if you are not paying attention to him. 

Lots of times a dog will give a heightened reaction when we tighten up on the lead. Staying calm, leaving the leash loose and increasing the distance so that no one gets injured no matter what, can actually help a lot. When we tighten up on the leash, we are transmitting to our dog: "BAD SHTUFF IS GOING DOWN!!!" When we grab their muzzle the dog is thinking, "Yo, wha??? What's happening, Why??? who-What is that???" And this does exactly the opposite of what you want, the dog is more dangerous, because now he is frightened. It is something we create in our dogs sometimes. 

That doesn't mean that dogs don't learn it too. I mean if you tighten up whenever you see big black dogs, and the dog starts to react to big black dogs. After we have taught him that big black dogs are scary, he may react even if we don't tighten up because we have taught him to be wary of them.


----------



## VTGirlT

*Muzzle:* Get one where they can get treats pretty easy, can pant, and smell, are comfortable and think about year round wear (as in no metal for winter).
This is a muzzle i got. I love it, Zelda is okay with it, and my Vet loves it so much he wanted to know what it is to refer it to another client. It's the Leather Basket Muzzle from Dean and Tyler










Royal Leather Basket

*Vests:* Unlike what you think, people do actually read them, or at least will have an automatic response to a particular color vest you have on your dog. Yellow and black i believe is the best color. 
For your dog, i would get either "Please Give Me Space" https://www.etsy.com/listing/167352...to=US&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery

or what i am getting my dog "IN TRAINING No Touch, No Talk" I chose this one over the other one, because i don't necessarily want them to give her space, just to ignore her, while i work with her. And i got the jacket in yellow and black. 
https://www.etsy.com/transaction/205140614?ref=shop_review


*Some ideas:*
My first trainer told me to try this. Go into a park. Tie her leash to a park bench and hang out with her. When someone walks by and she reacts. Get up and walk away from her. To basically let her know you find the behavior unacceptable to the point of even leaving her. (You can even put a sign up next the bench or something, saying you are training and to ignore the dog while walking by)
Another trainer said, to do slow interactions at her pace. Treat and treat and treat for every time she looks at the person without a reaction. She can look alert. And slowly work your way up with each person where they make slight eye contact, reward and treat. "Have parties." Where you get all excited and treat them like crazy for looking without reacting. Counter conditioning them to the scary thing. Making the scary thing into a good thing basically.
Another trainer told me, to basically do hand targeting to a level where she is REALLY Into it. (Where you say "Touch" and hold your hand anywhere, and she is to touch her nose to it) And then eventually transfer that to a stranger.
And another trainer said, to basically do obedience and every time she disobeys while even distraction is around she gets corrected and praised once she starts obeying. For instance she knows heel well and she is to heel next to me and not concentrate on anything but me. Because this trainer believes that once they are in a particular pattern. Barking, lunging at strangers, it soons becomes habit. And i can go into more detail at some point when im not in a hurry!


----------



## lalachka

selzer said:


> Lala, there are so many times when the trainer will know (and not necessarily say) that the problem is not with the dog but the handler. It would not be uncommon if this were the case.
> 
> LOL, when I was getting my first RNs, I had a nearly perfect run with both my bitches, and when I looked at the score, one had a 90 and the other an 89. I was rocked. I asked the judge. She said, the dogs were great, I love your dogs. I want to get them a new handler. Welcome to showing in the AKC! But really, I had made the mistake. In real life -- life outside the ring, we often are the problem more so than our dog.
> 
> That's not the problem. The problem is not knowing that we are the problem. If we _know _that we are the problem, then we can change our approach, we can try something different. We can work at our end of the story, and help our dog build its trust in us.
> 
> I am not saying you are the problem. I am saying you may be. This does not mean you have to get rid of the dog. It means that continuing to do what you are doing is only going to make things worse. And correcting the dog when we are at fault, will not improve the dog's confidence or trust in us.
> 
> So, it is good to know. If the trainer can take the dog down the street and the dog doesn't react, then you need to work on what it is that you are communicating to the dog that the trainer is not.
> 
> Shooting the messenger won't help in any way.


I won't get rid of him no matter what happens. I was being sarcastic. 

I'm sure I'm the problem. I believe if my trainer had my dog he'd fix him in a few days.


----------



## lalachka

onyx'girl said:


> your nerves are going right down the leash to him. Everyone keeps telling you that you need to show confidence in your handling so he will feel that you have his back. He needs to look to you for safety so he won't feel that need to be 'on' all the time.
> Step up your handling skills, keep him engaged and in obedience when you think he's possibly going to go off. don't correct for the reactive behaviors but for the lack of obedience. And make it worthy, not a nag.


I'm able to stop a reaction if I notice before he does. Most of them unless I do something stupid and I know what I did wrong so I do right next time. 

The reactions he's still having are those I didn't notice in time. .
Also, I failed him so many times that I don't think he can trust me now. I'm not sure how to show him that He can. 

I'd love to be able to put him in a down when a dog is running at us and step in front And deal with It but I can't. He won't stay. I'm working on a solid down and sit now.


----------



## lalachka

glowingtoadfly said:


> Reading what? Him? ( I hope)


An ebook on my phone))))


----------



## lalachka

selzer said:


> If you have a reactive dog, then you have no business multitasking on a walk. So don't walk and read. How do you even do that. You walk with your nose in a book or with audiobooks and are not paying attention to what the dog is doing?
> 
> If he is reactive, how can you possibly stay below his threshold if you are not paying attention to him.
> 
> Lots of times a dog will give a heightened reaction when we tighten up on the lead. Staying calm, leaving the leash loose and increasing the distance so that no one gets injured no matter what, can actually help a lot. When we tighten up on the leash, we are transmitting to our dog: "BAD SHTUFF IS GOING DOWN!!!" When we grab their muzzle the dog is thinking, "Yo, wha??? What's happening, Why??? who-What is that???" And this does exactly the opposite of what you want, the dog is more dangerous, because now he is frightened. It is something we create in our dogs sometimes.
> 
> That doesn't mean that dogs don't learn it too. I mean if you tighten up whenever you see big black dogs, and the dog starts to react to big black dogs. After we have taught him that big black dogs are scary, he may react even if we don't tighten up because we have taught him to be wary of them.


I read on the way back from the park at 1-2 am. 

But this is amazing. I say I walk while staring at him to catch a reaction in time and people say I'm transmitting to him that I'm expecting a reaction. I say I'm not paying attention to him and now I should be staring. 


Anyway, I gave that as an example. 

I doubt he's feeding off my reactions, neighbors told me he sticks his head out of the window and barks at their dogs when I'm not home. Also, as I said,these days he only reacts if he notices the trigger before I do. 
If he noticed it before me and reacted then he couldn't have been feeding off me. I didn't see anything so I didn't transmit anything. 


What's possible is that he just doesn't trust me. So many times I let him get roughed up by dogs and made him endure petting from people when I could tell he's uncomfortable that I think at this point he lost faith in my ability to protect him. 

There are a few holes there too, he reacts when my daughter's bf walks him and my sister's bf. 


So I think my other trainer is right. He's been doing it so long that now it's s habit. But I do think that I created this habit by making a ton of mistakes.


----------



## lalachka

Vt, that's the muzzle I was looking at. This one and a similar one. 

I will not do the sign and vest, that will just attract attention to us. At the very least people are looking towards us to read the signs. That sets him off when some people look at him. 

I can't tie him up and walk away, that alone will send him in to a frenzy though I do like the idea. 

Yeah, the obedience is what we are doing. And it's a habit for him at this point, I agree


----------



## David Winners

lalachka said:


> I won't get rid of him no matter what happens. I was being sarcastic.
> 
> I'm sure I'm the problem. I believe if my trainer had my dog he'd fix him in a few days.


You say he acts well at the trainers. 

What do you think the trainer is going to do different? 

How will his behavior effect the outcome (reaction of the dog) of a given situation? 

David Winners


----------



## Sunflowers

lalachka said:


> An ebook on my phone))))


If you think he doesn't know you are not paying attention-- think again. 

Consider leaving the phone in your pocket and concentrating on walking briskly and with purpose. 
Reading on the phone will make your gait slow and hesitant and he will feel that he has to be in charge on the walk.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

You don't have to stare at your dog the entire time you take a walk, or gee did I read that right? Your READING your IPHONE? Put him on a leash, walk like your on a mission and be done with it 

I'm glad you've said your the problem, because I think you've hit the nail on the head. 

You won't let your trainer take him for a few days to straighten him out, you wont straighten him out..I say, quite complaining about it, learn to live with what you've got, because ya know what? There will be no change because you are hampering it. 

Again, you've got a novel going here, that is just that, a novel. You have managed to confuse this dog, which you admit, you need to learn to live with what you have and deal with it because all this 'posting' has been of no benefit to the dog. 

Maybe I sound harsh, so be it, it bothers me to see people with probably NICE dogs, screw them up and then just whine and moan they can't fix the dog..You've gotten tons of suggestions over the past couple years, and STILL seem to have not been able to apply one of them..

Again, sorry I'm sounding harsh, but geeeez stop talking about it, consider the dog's life and find a reputable trainer that will make a change, otherwise, live with the way he is and deal..done..


----------



## Blanketback

I have the same D&T muzzle, it's very nice. I don't _need_ it with my dog, but I think it's good to have them muzzled trained, just in case. If you're going to get one, this is a good one.

I can't help but laugh, reading this thread. Not at you or your dog, but at the whole situation: it really reminds me of my work environment! As soon as the boss is gone, you can tell! People start texting their friends, or stand around chatting - just generally goofing off. Like how your dog is when you're not paying attention to him. Smart dog, he knows when he can start having fun, lol. Because barking and jumping around is fun, ask any dog 

Queens sounds like a very nice place to live. There's no way I could walk around at 2am without paying attention, when I lived in the city. Yikes, that would have been inviting trouble!


----------



## lalachka

David Winners said:


> You say he acts well at the trainers.
> 
> What do you think the trainer is going to do different?
> 
> How will his behavior effect the outcome (reaction of the dog) of a given situation?
> 
> David Winners


They are consistent. They know what they're doing and won't flop back and forth. They know how to deal with things that are not 'by the book'
He knows how much he can get a way with me. I'm working on being consistent.

ETA the big problem is that I start flopping if I don't see results fast enough. I never know how long anything should take (anything, him learning a command, Or fixing reactivity) so after a little while with no results I try something else


----------



## lalachka

Sunflowers said:


> If you think he doesn't know you are not paying attention-- think again.
> 
> Consider leaving the phone in your pocket and concentrating on walking briskly and with purpose.
> Reading on the phone will make your gait slow and hesitant and he will feel that he has to be in charge on the walk.


That's true. I never thought about this. I do slow down. 

I won't do it again with him.


----------



## lalachka

JakodaCD OA said:


> You don't have to stare at your dog the entire time you take a walk, or gee did I read that right? Your READING your IPHONE? Put him on a leash, walk like your on a mission and be done with it
> 
> I'm glad you've said your the problem, because I think you've hit the nail on the head.
> 
> You won't let your trainer take him for a few days to straighten him out, you wont straighten him out..I say, quite complaining about it, learn to live with what you've got, because ya know what? There will be no change because you are hampering it.
> 
> Again, you've got a novel going here, that is just that, a novel. You have managed to confuse this dog, which you admit, you need to learn to live with what you have and deal with it because all this 'posting' has been of no benefit to the dog.
> 
> Maybe I sound harsh, so be it, it bothers me to see people with probably NICE dogs, screw them up and then just whine and moan they can't fix the dog..You've gotten tons of suggestions over the past couple years, and STILL seem to have not been able to apply one of them..
> 
> Again, sorry I'm sounding harsh, but geeeez stop talking about it, consider the dog's life and find a reputable trainer that will make a change, otherwise, live with the way he is and deal..done..


I am dealing with it. I came to terms with It a while ago. If I fix it - good, if not then oh well. 

I only care about the reactivity because I know it doesn't feel good to him to have these fits. If I knew He is content reacting I wouldn't care. I'd just stay away from people

The posting is helping me see things I don't see on my own

I am looking for a trainer that can work with me on the streets


----------



## VTGirlT

Most trainers will want to work with you first way under threshold before going to maximum, without so much liability.

My trainer and i are working for 3-5 sessions before going into a highly populated place. In which i plan on muzzling her. Who is to say a little kid (or even adult) isn't going to come up running to you, not listening to you saying. "Give him space!" and goes to grab your dog for a hug? Or from behind and you didn't see it coming? Better not needing it and having it on, than needing it and not having it on.

I think it's unsafe and not responsible of anyone to have a dog without a muzzle with any reactivity to humans in such a highly populated area, with the sounds of what your boy is doing and my girl. Ultimately, not fair to them either. Setting them up for failure.


----------



## lalachka

Blanketback said:


> I have the same D&T muzzle, it's very nice. I don't _need_ it with my dog, but I think it's good to have them muzzled trained, just in case. If you're going to get one, this is a good one.
> 
> I can't help but laugh, reading this thread. Not at you or your dog, but at the whole situation: it really reminds me of my work environment! As soon as the boss is gone, you can tell! People start texting their friends, or stand around chatting - just generally goofing off. Like how your dog is when you're not paying attention to him. Smart dog, he knows when he can start having fun, lol. Because barking and jumping around is fun, ask any dog
> 
> Queens sounds like a very nice place to live. There's no way I could walk around at 2am without paying attention, when I lived in the city. Yikes, that would have been inviting trouble!


My area is not bad at all. But I'm also not the most cautious person. Without him I'm always reading. With him it's only after I looked around for triggers. But I'm stopping this. Sunflowers has a good point. 

Yeah,all my threads are insane. I'm insane too. 

Does everyone do better with their first dog? Am I really failing this bad? 

But I try my best, I really do. If I wrote everything I've done this wouldn't be a novel,it'd be I don't know how long

I also try to be honest about things I do wrong.


----------



## Blanketback

Sunflowers has an excellent point, lol. Honestly, walking really slow and ignoring your dog must be so boring for him - no wonder he's on the prowl for something to bark at. If the most exciting thing he gets to do on a walk is pee on a bush, you almost have to expect some mischief. A nice quick pace would definitely make a big difference. Don't worry, I'm insane too - I talk to my dog on walks, "Yeah, I saw that frog too! He was a big one!" We have a good time together, and I think you're missing out on that.


----------



## Sunflowers

Music helps you speed up.
I put on my favorite music with the iPhone in my pocket, and do not even bother with head phones. I even sing along sometimes... Gets Hans to do a doggie grin. That dog loves to be sung to, LOL!

And it puts me in a happy mood. I'm sure it travels down the leash.


----------



## lalachka

Blanketback said:


> Sunflowers has an excellent point, lol. Honestly, walking really slow and ignoring your dog must be so boring for him - no wonder he's on the prowl for something to bark at. If the most exciting thing he gets to do on a walk is pee on a bush, you almost have to expect some mischief. A nice quick pace would definitely make a big difference. Don't worry, I'm insane too - I talk to my dog on walks, "Yeah, I saw that frog too! He was a big one!" We have a good time together, and I think you're missing out on that.


No, we usually walk fast. Once in a blue, at night, I'd read on the way home. I gave that as an example to say he can't be feeding off me because sometimes I don't see things. 

He barks because he's scared. I'm sure I could've done things different when this started to not have this problem today But at this point he's scared. Walk fast, slow, he will bark. 

I will ask a trainer when I find one to walk him without me. I'd say he will still bark but I believe a trainer can shut him up quicker and possibly stop this behavior if he was their dog. 


We just came back. Nice walk. Did a little food trail in the grass and let him find it. People walking by everywhere and he just kept sniffing. We didn't see any dogs though. 

I loved the nose stuff. I will be doing this every day


----------



## lalachka

Also, tried ordering a muzzle and they don't have a leather muzzle for his measurements lol. Will try a different place. 

I'm not sure about the muzzle though it'd be interesting to see what happens. I have a feeling it will make things worse. He will feel vulnerable 

I will go a few more days and see how we do. Its been good lately. Not to jinx


----------



## Blanketback

It'll be interesting to see how he reacts to other dogs when he's involved with the food trails your doing with him. Then you'll have your answer, if he ignores them for the better fun he's having.


----------



## lalachka

Blanketback said:


> Sunflowers has an excellent point, lol. Honestly, walking really slow and ignoring your dog must be so boring for him - no wonder he's on the prowl for something to bark at. If the most exciting thing he gets to do on a walk is pee on a bush, you almost have to expect some mischief. A nice quick pace would definitely make a big difference. Don't worry, I'm insane too - I talk to my dog on walks, "Yeah, I saw that frog too! He was a big one!" We have a good time together, and I think you're missing out on that.


I'm not missing out on good time for sure. We spend at least 2 hours out together every day, more on weekends. We have tons of fun, have made up games we enjoy, I talk to him, make jokes to him and about him lol and I don't remember what else but taking him out at night is the highlight of my day. 

I don't write about it because no one wants to read about It.


----------



## lalachka

Blanketback said:


> It'll be interesting to see how he reacts to other dogs when he's involved with the food trails your doing with him. Then you'll have your answer, if he ignores them for the better fun he's having.


Good point. Another question. Sometimes he ignores the dogs I saw and I think he didn't see them. I'm almost sure he didnt because his ears didn't perk up, his didn't focus. I know when he does. 

Does this count? He didn't react but he didn't see them. People tell me they notice everything. I don't think he does. 

If a dog passes right by I don't see him not reacting but who knows.


----------



## lalachka

Sunflowers said:


> Music helps you speed up.
> I put on my favorite music with the iPhone in my pocket, and do not even bother with head phones. I even sing along sometimes... Gets Hans to do a doggie grin. That dog loves to be sung to, LOL!
> 
> And it puts me in a happy mood. I'm sure it travels down the leash.


I will try this too. I'd choose reading over music any day but music does change moods


----------



## Blanketback

Your question is a good one, and this is partly why I think your dog is reacting out of boredom. I know we have better eyesight than they do, but their sense of smell is incredible. So if you see a dog in the area, even if your dog can't see it, I'd imagine he can smell it. If he's not reacting to it at that distance, then he's fine with them not right directly in his face. But if he was truly frightened by them, wouldn't he be reacting as soon as he knew they were there? IDK. I know my dog will bark at other dogs or people, out of excitement. But if he's in the middle of a game then nothing else interests him in the least - not people, dogs, you name it. That's why I like to use "Quiet" for the yapping and "Leave it" for nosiness. And after he's had a good workout, he's the best behaved dog in town, lol.


----------



## David Winners

Walking the dog while reading is like 2 people sitting at the same table with one checking Facebook. No engagement. 

The first thing I train people to do is engage with the dog. You're in it together. If Fama is sleeping and I move in my chair, she is checking me out to see if I'm doing something or going somewhere. 

I also can't even fathom a trainer that wouldn't want to see the dog performing the problem behavior before beginning training. A general assessment is the first thing they should be doing, especially with behavioral issues. 

David Winners


----------



## lalachka

David Winners said:


> Walking the dog while reading is like 2 people sitting at the same table with one checking Facebook. No engagement.
> 
> The first thing I train people to do is engage with the dog. You're in it together. If Fama is sleeping and I move in my chair, she is checking me out to see if I'm doing something or going somewhere.
> 
> I also can't even fathom a trainer that wouldn't want to see the dog performing the problem behavior before beginning training. A general assessment is the first thing they should be doing, especially with behavioral issues.
> 
> David Winners


My dog does the same. I haven't been in the bathroom alone since I got him. He follows me everywhere inside and outside. Sometimes I take a break from him lol and zone out or read. 

Me walking and reading happened a few times for 5 mins at a time. I gave it as an example that I'm not feeding his reactions because twice when I did that we bumped into dogs. 

And I agree about the trainer. It's been really hard for me to find a good trainer. This guy is top in sport. How do I find a good one????

He's number 6. 1 I liked but he's in CA. The other 5 I didn't like for different reasons. 

There's one more that's been working with me long distance. She's amazing and I wish she was here.


----------



## lalachka

David Winners said:


> Walking the dog while reading is like 2 people sitting at the same table with one checking Facebook. No engagement.
> 
> The first thing I train people to do is engage with the dog. You're in it together. If Fama is sleeping and I move in my chair, she is checking me out to see if I'm doing something or going somewhere.
> 
> I also can't even fathom a trainer that wouldn't want to see the dog performing the problem behavior before beginning training. A general assessment is the first thing they should be doing, especially with behavioral issues.
> 
> David Winners


Also, engagement is what I've been working on all these months. I read on the way back from the park after engaging lol for 2 hours. I'm spent, he's spent. 

Reading is a bad idea, I know. I won't do it anymore.


----------



## lalachka

Ok lol I'm a believer. We just came back. Had 3 reactions. One was my fault. I'm still struggling with this, telling owners with dogs I know to not come over. Hopefully one day. 

The other two I didn't see the dogs. They were pretty close and he had the fits I was trying to describe here. 

One hard pop shut him up both tines. Especially the second time. That was the scenario I'm most scared of. Dog coming out of nowhere on a 4 ft sidewalk. 

I popped him hard and he shut up. 


So I will give this a try. We have a few aggressive dogs here and I'm still scared of bumping into them but will deal with that when it happens. 

Thanks to Steve for the idea to sit him down on the side and stand between him and everything else. 

He doesn't want to sit, I'm having to correct for that too. To be honest I feel bad correcting this much and this hard but if this fixes reactivity pretty quick I'm ready. 



Question. He does this thing sometimes when we are walking, he tries to jump on me, as a way to get me to stop, I don't let him But I stop and he lies down and on his side and waits for me to pet his side and stomach (opens legs but he always does that when we pet)

It's really adorable and I don't mind but is he stressed and that's his way of asking for reassursnce? Also sometimes he goes between my legs and that's also looking for comfort, right?

Any comments on this?


----------



## lalachka

I'm having a problem telling people I know to stay away. Today he reacted but then calmed down and let the man pet him and do all kinds of stuff. 

Do people here really do that or just write that they do to sound tough?


----------



## angierose

"Please stay back, we are training." Does that sound tough? Or just smile and walk away, and explain later without the dog if you feel the need. 

It's your dog, your world. Own it.


----------



## lalachka

angierose said:


> "Please stay back, we are training." Does that sound tough? Or just smile and walk away, and explain later without the dog if you feel the need.
> 
> It's your dog, your world. Own it.


I look at things from the perspective of how I'd like it if it was done to me. If I don't like it I try not to do it. I wouldn't like this. 
It doesn't sound tough but I'd say you need a mean streak to ignore someone you approached with your dog many times before.


----------



## VTGirlT

I have two very nice neighbor ladies, who are always saying hi to me, and one is offended Zelda still doesnt like her. And the other lady is always saying "hello Zelda" from a distance.

I've approached both of them, without Zelda, to tell them about Zelda. So they already know.

And i have no problem telling people that my dog has fear aggression and i'm trying to keep her under threshold, or to just give her space, or that were in training. But usually i am the one crossing the street, or having her sit and wait while people pass, and turning my back towards the people. (that is my body language) And people get it. Usually people will than pass by and say how beautiful she is. And i say "Thank you!" And once they pass we keep walking. 

One lady asked me the other day, because she was going by and i couldnt cross the street cause a car was coming, asked if she was mean. I had Zelda in a sit and wait, and i crouched in front of her and held her, the lady asked if my dog was "mean." I am like "nope, she has fear aggression and doesn't trust people." 

My last resort is already planned out. If someone approaches and i am telling them off and i have no where to go and i can guess their intention are going to be way past Zelda's threshold. I will pick Zelda up (She is only 70 pounds) And YELL, "I SAID KEEP THE (insert swear word) AWAY (Insert another swear word)." That should help. If i have to be mean, to keep everyone safe. I sure will!


----------



## lalachka

keeping away people I don't know is different and easy, I just say he's not friendly and thank those that compliment and walk on. I've gotten dirty looks and weird reactions but those don't bother me. 

it's those that I 'know' (casual like seen a few times) that I'm uncomfortable with because in the past I let them approach. so I feel a little weird walking away from them or telling them to not come close because I've let them all the other times. 

maybe one day but so far I wasn't able to.


----------



## Chip18

lalachka said:


> I'm having a problem telling people I know to stay away. Today he reacted but then calmed down and let the man pet him and do all kinds of stuff.
> 
> Do people here really do that or just write that they do to sound tough?


http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html

"Who Pets My Puppy or Dog" Custom made! You can add '"he's in training so I'd rather you didn’t" if you like."

And add if they ask training for what?? You could add "he's learning not to bite the crap out of people!!" 

I don't play! My dog did not need a bite history on his record! After awhile he learned his place was behind me when I spoke to folks and people were no big deal!

Today he is safe in public and I do allow people to pet him...he could careless, good enough!


----------



## lalachka

I read everything there is on leerburg many times over. 

people that I can't say no to aren't going to stop for signs. even if they read the sign they will assume it's there for others because we know each other. and will def want to come over to ask me about it. 

and also my boy already wears 3 collars (sometimes 4 with ecollar) so not looking for anything else to add 

I will try saying no to people I know.


----------



## selzer

You have to be your dog's advocate. A true friend, an acquaintance worth continuing to know will accept it if you tell them not to approach your dog properly. If someone continues to come forward -- "no, really, all dogs love me." -- then step forward and say "Do NOT approach him. We are working on a problem." 

The thing is, best case scenario is that you go over the dog's threshold, he reacts, doesn't hurt anybody, but it is a set back, because you were unable to protect him from the semi-stranger. The worst case scenario is that someone gets hurt and then we have a different kind of thread with all sorts of complications. Please, we do not want to get to that kind of a thread with your pup. 

So, if necessary, take a self-defense course. They will teach you to assert yourself. It will help with your dog too. It's good exercise and really worth the time and effort. Every woman should take some form of self-defense.


----------



## lalachka

lol I will think about it


unrelated. is it true that strong sex drive equals dominance and therefore absence of one is submission? my boy doesn't have a strong sex drive 

also, some dogs after pooping do this thing with the back legs, like spreading it. same dogs i see doing it are also those that started lifting legs early, can't leave a female alone and so on. so I'd say the strong sex drive dogs do the thing with the back legs after pooping though I only know a few dogs. just thought it was an interesting coincidence. 


trying to read my dog. I'd say he's pretty submissive to me, not that I like it. just stating a fact

approaches with head low ears back, any time I go for his stomach to pet opens his legs (so adorable and touching), is very affectionate overall. sometimes 'talks back' to me and makes it look like he wants to nip me (extremely adorable)))))))

but with dogs i don't see any signs of submission. is that possible? I thought a dog is either submissive or he isn't 

am I wrong on anything I said here?


----------



## lalachka

selzer, i have no problem asserting myself and telling people to get lost if they're being dicks. it's much harder for me to say no to anyone who's being nice and in my head doesn't deserve any negativity. 

I will try.


----------



## DaniFani

JakodaCD OA said:


> why not keep going and nothing special approach.
> 
> I don't want to sound harsh, but I think we've all gone thru this whole thing with you and the dog months ago, you got mad and left, your back and nothing has changed.
> 
> The dog sounds totally confused, your doing this, then doing that, stick to one thing and GET ON HIM, stop placating, confusing and babying him..STICK TO ONE THING, and make it work.
> 
> Maybe you should think about sending him off for training/reconditioning because what your doing with him isn't working for you..Just my opinion


Every time I think about commenting on this thread or to Lala again, I re-read this. lol

I however, disagree that sending the dog away would work....because that doesn't fix the main problem, the owner. I do understand your sentiment, though. Lala just finds excuses for every trainer she see's, even the things that work. For some reason excuses are made...even then.

After working pet behavior modification with pet owners for a short time now....I am now a FIRM believer some people just shouldn't have dogs...at least not a working/utility/herding breed.


----------



## lalachka

llombardo said:


> I don't think your dog is fear aggressive or a nerve bag, I said that a long time ago. You can get the same results with a prong, so I'm not sure why they preferred a choke collar on a dog that pulls and lunges, practically breaking its neck? For that sole reason I wouldn't go back there unless I was allowed to use the collar of my choice. Any obedience training is stressful for dogs, they are forced to work and it's hard with so much going on. So now take what you learned and use it on your dog. It's more stressful for him to feel frustrated and reacting. Get him past that so you guys can enjoy each other.. Remember to never let him focus on anything, if he does you lost and he won.


i am. I know people said it here many times, you too. I just wanted it confirmed by people that saw him and not went by ny descriptions. 

I'm actually excited that it's me and not him. I will fix this. 


anyway, their thing with the prong is thst first of all, they say it amps them up, in diff words though. 
second, they said the prong is always felt by the dog. especially with the heavy leather leash i use. they have a point. but I'm not using a choke

*** TEXT REMOVED BY MOD PER MEMBER ***


i wasn't prepared to see stuff like that. however, they had these horrifying looking dogs that would eat me for lunch and i felt safe because i knew they have total control. 

I'm just digesting everything I saw. trying to come to terms with it.


----------



## lalachka

DaniFani said:


> Every time I think about commenting on this thread or to Lala again, I re-read this. lol
> 
> I however, disagree that sending the dog away would work....because that doesn't fix the main problem, the owner. I do understand your sentiment, though. Lala just finds excuses for every trainer she see's, even the things that work. For some reason excuses are made...even then.
> 
> After working pet behavior modification with pet owners for a short time now....I am now a FIRM believer some people just shouldn't have dogs...at least not a working/utility/herding breed.


Can I see videos of your first dog?


----------



## DaniFani

lalachka said:


> i am. I know people said it here many times, you too. *I just wanted it confirmed by people that saw him and not went by ny descriptions.*
> 
> I'm actually excited that it's me and not him. I will fix this.
> 
> 
> anyway, their thing with the prong is thst first of all, they say it amps them up, in diff words though.
> second, they said the prong is always felt by the dog. especially with the heavy leather leash i use. they have a point. but I'm not using a choke
> 
> *** TEXT REMOVED BY MOD PER USER ***
> 
> 
> i wasn't prepared to see stuff like that. however, they had these horrifying looking dogs that would eat me for lunch and i felt safe because i knew they have total control.
> 
> I'm just digesting everything I saw. trying to come to terms with it.


You've had so many freaking trainers tell you this, take the dog, get it to be completely under control, and "fix" everything in their hands...but you never listen. Gah! Aren't you tired of this circle, over and over and over again? It's crazy to me. The term "broken record" has never been more appropriate. I don't think you want your dog fixed, then you'd have nothing to contradict, confuse, and talk about, over and over and over again.


----------



## lalachka

I don't trust any of them. actually I don't know if I can trust the ones from today either but I'm just going to go with it. 

I'd rather think before I commit to using this much force as opposed to dive in head first.


----------



## Steve Strom

Its right that you should think about what to do with Boomer, but I wouldnt comment online about other dogs and their training there.


----------



## lalachka

Steve Strom said:


> Its right that you should think about what to do with Boomer, but I wouldnt comment online about other dogs and their training there.


I didn't name them. so I thought it was OK.


----------



## lalachka

you're right, I will ask to delete this


----------



## DaniFani

lalachka said:


> Can I see videos of your first dog?


Don't have any videos of obedience and he's deceased. I can tell you, he (my first GSD) would "down" no matter where I was or what I was doing, was CONSTANTLY complimented on how "well behaved" he was at the park, home depot/lowes, hiking, markets, parades, he loose leash walked, ignored other dogs, etc....He was NOT from good genetics, and could have easily turned into a lunging, barking, guy...

I didn't get the dog knowing *anything*. I picked a trainer/s with a very successful track record, respected their methods by not questioning, contradicting, and second guessing everything they were doing (how dare I do that, they have titled dogs, trained dogs, and successfully taught a TON of pet dogs good manners..I was a noob with a poorly bred dog that had all the potential to be out of control with maturity), followed their methods, became a leader, and "made it happen" when it came to getting my dog well behaved.


----------



## lalachka

DaniFani said:


> Don't have any videos of obedience and he's deceased. I can tell you, he (my first GSD) would "down" no matter where I was or what I was doing, was CONSTANTLY complimented on how "well behaved" he was at the park, home depot/lowes, hiking, markets, parades, he loose leash walked, ignored other dogs, etc....He was NOT from good genetics, and could have easily turned into a lunging, barking, guy...
> 
> I didn't get the dog knowing *anything*. I picked a trainer/s with a very successful track record, respected their methods by not questioning, contradicting, and second guessing everything they were doing (how dare I do that, they have titled dogs, trained dogs, and successfully taught a TON of pet dogs good manners..I was a noob with a poorly bred dog that had all the potential to be out of control with maturity), followed their methods, became a leader, and "made it happen" when it came to getting my dog well behaved.


your first dog. the first dog you ever got.

compliments don't mean anything. believe it or not, I get compliments on how obedient my dog is. it doesn't take much for the public


----------



## VTGirlT

DaniFani said:


> Don't have any videos of obedience and he's deceased. I can tell you, he (my first GSD) would "down" no matter where I was or what I was doing, was CONSTANTLY complimented on how "well behaved" he was at the park, home depot/lowes, hiking, markets, parades, he loose leash walked, ignored other dogs, etc....He was NOT from good genetics, and could have easily turned into a lunging, barking, guy...
> 
> I didn't get the dog knowing *anything*. I picked a trainer/s with a very successful track record, respected their methods by not questioning, contradicting, and second guessing everything they were doing (how dare I do that, they have titled dogs, trained dogs, and successfully taught a TON of pet dogs good manners..I was a noob with a poorly bred dog that had all the potential to be out of control with maturity), followed their methods, became a leader, and "made it happen" when it came to getting my dog well behaved.


Sounds like you did it right. What type of training method and tools did your trainer use?


----------



## lalachka

also. there are no good trainers here. I've been looking for a year. go ahead. find me one. I'd love to just follow for once and not Google everything I'm freaking told because I'm seeing things that makes me not trust them


----------



## DaniFani

lalachka said:


> *I don't trust any of them.* actually I don't know if I can trust the ones from today either but I'm just going to go with it.
> 
> I'd rather think before I commit to using this much force as opposed to dive in head first.


And here in lies your problem. Continuing this line of thought you insist on pushing, YOU should never be trusted with a dog that has an ounce of brains and self sufficiency. YOU have never proven yourself to be able to properly train, expose, socialize, and care for a dog successfully in society (in fact some would argue you continually prove the opposite)....so why should you be trusted with dogs? You hold others to this line of "not trusting" why can't others do this to you? 

You are constantly questioning those that know way more, have accomplished way more, and have way more experience than you (and I'm talking about the people irl you constantly come running back here to write about after they tried to help you)....If I were them I'd tell you to hit the road and good luck. I am NOT saying that one should not question and learn from those teaching, you aren't doing that imo. You question and "distrust" in a manner that the time and effort of those you seek for help, is wasted.


----------



## lalachka

are you for real? you don't even know who I'm seeing and who I'm questioning. wasn't it you thst got on my case because I mentioned sticking matches in a dog's butt to make them go to the bathroom?
a trainer told me that.
I disnt question anything then. I did everything he told me (except the matches), slapped a chocker on him at 4 months and yanked him until I realized this isn't the way to go. 

these days I don't trust anyone. I don't know how to tell who's good and who's not and every trainer I saw so far has done or said things that don't sit right with me

for all you know they're all clueless. but i must trust them because they call themselves trainers? 


good for you that you found a good trainer. I know a few trainers I'd love to go to but they're way too far.


----------



## DaniFani

VTGirlT said:


> Sounds like you did it right. What type of training method and tools did your trainer use?


Basic operant conditioning. The basics were taught quickly in a semi-sterile environment through luring, treats, toys...my first dog it was treats. Then the dog was asked to comply under slight distraction (proofing), rewarded for compliance, punished for non compliance, and as time went on distractions and duration increased, with slight modifications based on what my dog was showing (I'm talking for basic/manners obedience...the sport/competitive world is different, I train my sport dog way different than the pet obedience/behavior modification dogs we get or my house/pet corgi).

Every dog needs a system made to fit that dog's needs, imho, based on temperament, including drive levels, nerve strength, threshold levels, etc. That's why everyone has been telling Lala to pick a trainer and stick with them. I don't believe there are no good trainers around her, Lala has gone to countless trainers since she joined here. Including a recent one that "fixed" the dog when he handled him, is very qualified (she has said he's trained to competitive levels), and "doesn't need her as a client"....but she doesn't feel "comfortable" with the system he is using, for whatever reason....that's why I'm convinced she doesn't want the dog fixed. Consciously or subconsciously...then there would be nothing to complain about, question, and discuss.


----------



## lalachka

and one more thing. I have a tendency to be hard on myself. anyone else in my place wouldn't make this look so grim. 
as a matter of fact, I'm sure you'd be bragging if you were me. 

so don't tell me what I'm capable of. you don't know. you only see what I write and I always put myself down. you don't know until you see my dog. watch the video I posted and tell me again what I should be trusted with. not thst I care what you think. 

get over yourself.


----------



## Lilie

:headbang:


----------



## Baillif

I like how PSA guys see a GSD and an owner that cant control it and they immediately attempt to put the dog on defense. Genius!


----------



## onyx'girl

Even though a trainer has competed at national level doesn't always mean they can train a dog with behavioral issues...or train a handler either. It does take a skillset to work with handlers dealing with their pets. Competive sport people may not even know how to deal with such a situation(not saying that is the case here).
But they do know that consistent methods pay off and if the method isn't working, look at what the handler/trainer is doing wrong, it isn't usually the dogs fault.


----------



## DaniFani

onyx'girl said:


> Even though a trainer has competed at national level doesn't always mean they can train a dog with behavioral issues...or train a handler either. It does take a skillset to work with handlers dealing with their pets. Competive sport people may not even know how to deal with such a situation(not saying that is the case here).
> But they do know that consistent methods pay off and if the method isn't working, look at what the handler/trainer is doing wrong, it isn't usually the dogs fault.


The trainer I was referring to, OP has said several times, the methods work, she likes the guy (she keeps going to him), the dog is "fixed" using the methods....yet she won't follow through. I don't get it. 

Yeah, I realize just because a handler competes nationally, doesn't mean they can train pet obedience. You can say that for anything...."Just because they are good at ...fill in the blank...doesn't mean they are good at....fill in the blank." But it's like Winner's said about the medical equipment. Certain experience yields knowledge, that knowledge should be taken into consideration more than someone who has never done it before. And one that has the background experience, AND per OP, methods are working. I don't get why that isn't utilized to fix the issues and followed through to success.

She is going to a LOT of trainers. Admitted what some of them are doing is working. Yet she's uncomfortable. With one post, the trainer's methods work....the next post is that there are no good trainers around her. Then we are supposed to read her mind, that what she is saying is being exaggerated. It's like the woman who's husband asks, "what's wrong?" She says, "nothing." And then is peeved off that the husband assumes nothing is wrong. The whole thing is nonsensical. 

I still have no idea why PSA people were brought into this. But I'm not touching that with a ten foot pole lol.


----------



## lalachka

Onyx, thank you. This is the last post about my dog. 

There's so much more to all of this but I can't say a lot of it. I def don't go around trying to find things wrong with trainers. I spent lots of money and hundreds of hours working on this. 

But in short. I'm upset that I can't fix it using positive methods. Also, a trainer I met a few months ago (moved away a week after I met her) told me I can and using force is the lazy way out and what she showed worked... IF I saw the dog before him, if there was enough space to keep a safe distance, if he took treats, if the other dog wasn't going at him and I forgot what other ifs were there. 

It was hard for me to commit to using lots of force just because I couldn't figure out the positive way. She said it's possible, people here said it's possible. And now my dog is going through pain because I couldn't get it done. 

Whatever. I'm doing it and I'm not posting anything about him anymore. I was using this board to get some of the stress out and get some ideas but it's a tank with pirahna here.


----------



## llombardo

lalachka said:


> Onyx, thank you. This is the last post about my dog.
> 
> There's so much more to all of this but I can't say a lot of it. I def don't go around trying to find things wrong with trainers. I spent lots of money and hundreds of hours working on this.
> 
> But in short. I'm upset that I can't fix it using positive methods. Also, a trainer I met a few months ago (moved away a week after I met her) told me I can and using force is the lazy way out and what she showed worked... IF I saw the dog before him, if there was enough space to keep a safe distance, if he took treats, if the other dog wasn't going at him and I forgot what other ifs were there.
> 
> It was hard for me to commit to using lots of force just because I couldn't figure out the positive way. She said it's possible, people here said it's possible. And now my dog is going through pain because I couldn't get it done.
> 
> Whatever. I'm doing it and I'm not posting anything about him anymore. I was using this board to get some of the stress out and get some ideas but it's a tank with pirahna here.


Do you think correcting him with a prong like they showed you today is force? Do you realize how fast your dog responded today once he knew he couldn't do what he wasn't suppose to do? Once they are taught what you want them to do, corrections can be very minimal if at all. Once you get him to understand that you can use positive training, but you can't let him think it's ever okay to do. You have to be consistent and firm, which doesn't mean using force at all.


----------



## Baillif

F=ma


----------



## DaniFani

Pft, I don't trust Newton, he's too old school. Get with the new age, bailiff. There are better equations now. Untested and unproven... But better. ;-)


----------



## Baillif

Relativity is hard though


----------



## glowingtoadfly

lalachka said:


> Onyx, thank you. This is the last post about my dog.
> 
> There's so much more to all of this but I can't say a lot of it. I def don't go around trying to find things wrong with trainers. I spent lots of money and hundreds of hours working on this.
> 
> But in short. I'm upset that I can't fix it using positive methods. Also, a trainer I met a few months ago (moved away a week after I met her) told me I can and using force is the lazy way out and what she showed worked... IF I saw the dog before him, if there was enough space to keep a safe distance, if he took treats, if the other dog wasn't going at him and I forgot what other ifs were there.
> 
> It was hard for me to commit to using lots of force just because I couldn't figure out the positive way. She said it's possible, people here said it's possible. And now my dog is going through pain because I couldn't get it done.
> 
> Whatever. I'm doing it and I'm not posting anything about him anymore. I was using this board to get some of the stress out and get some ideas but it's a tank with pirahna here.


Lala, I think this place can definitely amplify anxieties...


----------

