# Warning about irresponsible breeder. (Subject line edited by Admin)



## danas831 (Jan 22, 2015)

This post serves as a warning about * * * . I have an offspring of one of her bitches who has now been diagnosed with epilepsy at the age of 3. I have been in touch with my breeder who owned the sire (with no health issues) and she told me that the bitch disappeared off of their website even though she had been showcased previously. My breeder kept my dog's brother and just told me today that he had to be put down last night after suffering from status epilepticus. This was only his second seizure activity. I had contacted her after my dog had his first seizure and at the time she was unaware of any other issues. Then about a month later she let me know that his brother had his first one and we later had a phone converstaton about * * * REmoved by Admin * * * 

We are certain that the epilepsy is genetically inherited from her bitch and that she either knowingly bred a sick dog or at the very least later learned she had epilepsy and never disclosed it. Please beware of this type of breeder who will do anything for the almighty dollar.


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

I don't think this kind of post is allowed but you could try posting on Ripoff report.


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## danas831 (Jan 22, 2015)

Sorry, I am not trying to post anything that is not allowed. I just assumed a GSD forum would have a place to warn others about problems they've experienced with breeders. What we have gone through is absolutely heartbreaking and I wouldn't want anyone else to have to go through this.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

They breed untitled, untested, oversized dogs. They're breeding their pets. This is a classic case of "buyer beware" and why people should look for _reputable_ breeders and read the threads about what makes a reputable breeder. I'm very sorry this happened to you- perhaps this will serve as a warning to others why breeders like this are exactly why people here groan when people ask about "oversized old-fashioned" breeders.

(Just want to clarify- that is NOT in any way a dig at you... it's a valuable lesson that many of us have learned)


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

jumping in before thread is deleted. what does your contract say? what are your state laws. none of which will help with the emotional issues. have you seen a vet to get the seizures under control?


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

A good neurologist is worth their weight in gold- they're usually able to properly address the complexities with epilepsy better than general vets can. My dog has complex partial seizures and the neurologist we saw was a godsend. Good luck


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## danas831 (Jan 22, 2015)

My dog is seeing a neurologist on Monday. He has had some help with the seizures from accupuncture and staples in the head. But he is still having seizures so he'll need medication. Especially now that his brother died!


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## danas831 (Jan 22, 2015)

LoveEcho said:


> They breed untitled, untested, oversized dogs. They're breeding their pets. This is a classic case of "buyer beware" and why people should look for _reputable_ breeders and read the threads about what makes a reputable breeder. I'm very sorry this happened to you- perhaps this will serve as a warning to others why breeders like this are exactly why people here groan when people ask about "oversized old-fashioned" breeders.
> 
> (Just want to clarify- that is NOT in any way a dig at you... it's a valuable lesson that many of us have learned)


In no way taken as a dig. I purchased my puppy from the breeder who had the sire on site. She is reputable but unfortunately got involved with this other breeder. I wasn't looking for an oversized GSD nor was my dog "marketed" as one.


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## danas831 (Jan 22, 2015)

huntergreen said:


> jumping in before thread is deleted. what does your contract say? what are your state laws. none of which will help with the emotional issues. have you seen a vet to get the seizures under control?


 
I really don't know what the laws are, nor if I can ever prove this is inherted from the dam. After all, for all I know she's been put down too.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

For a number of reason we don't allow buyer-breeder disputes and negatives that can be seen as breeder bashing on the board, so I edited breeder identifying info out of the original posts. People may PM the OP if they would like to know who the breeder is, but in general I think the responses have been very good at pointing out what to stay away from and why when looking to acquire a pup.


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## danas831 (Jan 22, 2015)

Thank you for allowing the warning to stay up.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

danas831 said:


> In no way taken as a dig. I purchased my puppy from the breeder who had the sire on site. She is reputable but unfortunately got involved with this other breeder. I wasn't looking for an oversized GSD nor was my dog "marketed" as one.


I'm confused. Whoever whelped the puppy is the breeder. Not sure who is who by your posts. Who exactly are you holding responsible here?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Also epilepsy can happen even in well-bred litters from very responsible breeders. It's one of those things you can't control 100%. You say that you are certain that the epilepsy is being passed down from the bitch? How can you be certain? Does the owner of the bitch KNOW that her bitch throws epileptic pups and told you so much? It sounds like you are just pointing fingers and accusing without any proof. 

You have two pups from a breeding that developed epilepsy. The sire has been bred before, without any health issues in the pups, right? So now that there are issues, you are saying that the owner of the bitch must have known! How do YOU know that she knew? Did you research the previous progeny of the bitch from other breedings to find other dogs with epilepsy?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Epilepsy can be inherited. It can also be something that is caused by other factors. 

But lets suggest this one is inherited. Your dog is 3 years old. And it has now had a series of seizures with a diagnosis of epilepsy. But the dam was probably 2 or older when she had her first litter, and then she could have had another, and another before your pup was whelped. There is no guaranty that litter 1, or 2 had an epileptic puppy in it. 

Usually people will disclose this to the breeder. But they may not. Even so, by the time a pup with the condition becomes symptomatic, and that is then known, the bitch may have produced several litters. 

Now, what to do. The sire has produced puppies without issues (that are currently known) so it is definitely the dam's fault. Really? Maybe she has been bred to him before without issue. Maybe she has been bred to other dogs without issue. We really don't know this to be the case at all. 

There was some testing done with beagles, and I believe the rule of thumb was, if you are producing more than 15% you need to look at your breeding program. Any dog can have a seizure. They happen for a lot of reasons. A series of seizures is called epilepsy. And if there is no cause that they can find for the seizures, they call it ideopathic epilepsy.

My mom's cousin had epilepsy. It was caused by a fall when he was twelve. He developed grand mall seizures and battled the condition for 9 years before giving up. 

My sister has epilepsy. She stopped breathing in the hospital when she was newly born, and my mom had to bring her back. Whether that lack of oxygen early on was the first symptom of the issue, or was the cause of the epilepsy, we don't know. 

I have heard that people have developed epilepsy after a surgery when there were issues with anesthetic. A friend of mine agreed to have an older -- 8 or 9 year old dog given a hip surgery. After the surgery, the dog started having seizures. 

If a bitch has produced a dog that has developed epilepsy, should they automatically throw out the baby with the bathwater?

In every line of dogs there is some horrible disease, more likely several horrible diseases. It is, in fact, part of living in a world where we are mortal. Some of them will not be realized until after the dam is pretty much done producing.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

I think it might have to be thought even further back to the bitches dam, or even the dams dam, to see if there was epilepsy in their lineage or pups... If the lines are in essence clean, then unfortunately, it is unlikely much recourse can be done for many of the reasons Selzer mentioned... I would let the breeder know though just in case... I am sorry for your dogs health problem


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## KentuckyFenway (Jul 27, 2014)

I wish we could thank posts on this forum. Selzer, that was really well said.


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## danas831 (Jan 22, 2015)

selzer said:


> Epilepsy can be inherited. It can also be something that is caused by other factors.
> 
> But lets suggest this one is inherited. Your dog is 3 years old. And it has now had a series of seizures with a diagnosis of epilepsy. But the dam was probably 2 or older when she had her first litter, and then she could have had another, and another before your pup was whelped. There is no guaranty that litter 1, or 2 had an epileptic puppy in it.
> 
> ...


 
You make valid points but there is more to the story that has not been disclosed here, which I am just not going to get into but it lays a foundation of mistrust for this breeder. This dog vanished off of the website at the exact same age my dog has started having seizures, while they continue to display other bitches that are now in foster homes. My point is that it is likely she had seizures and had to be put down like my dog's brother. Ethically speaking, if this is true she should have disclosed this to my breeder so that owners of the pups could be warned. But instead it is kept hidden and my dog's brother was bred multiple times and now these dogs run the risk of genetic epilepsy. There is not enough accountability for breeders!


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## danas831 (Jan 22, 2015)

Castlemaid said:


> Also epilepsy can happen even in well-bred litters from very responsible breeders. It's one of those things you can't control 100%. You say that you are certain that the epilepsy is being passed down from the bitch? How can you be certain? Does the owner of the bitch KNOW that her bitch throws epileptic pups and told you so much? It sounds like you are just pointing fingers and accusing without any proof.
> 
> You have two pups from a breeding that developed epilepsy. The sire has been bred before, without any health issues in the pups, right? So now that there are issues, you are saying that the owner of the bitch must have known! How do YOU know that she knew? Did you research the previous progeny of the bitch from other breedings to find other dogs with epilepsy?


I am not saying she knew in advance, I am saying this dog has vanished, which leads me to believe there were issues with her. The sire does not have any medical issues nor do any of his other pups. Again, I have no conclusive evidence. I have emailed this breeder to ask her about the dam and she hasn't responded. I told her my dog has epilepsy because she should know this for further breeding and she does not respond. How responsible is that??


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## Debanneball (Aug 28, 2014)

Sue, I love your posts..Very well explained. You teach us all the time, thanks. 



selzer said:


> Epilepsy can be inherited. It can also be something that is caused by other factors.
> 
> But lets suggest this one is inherited. Your dog is 3 years old. And it has now had a series of seizures with a diagnosis of epilepsy. But the dam was probably 2 or older when she had her first litter, and then she could have had another, and another before your pup was whelped. There is no guaranty that litter 1, or 2 had an epileptic puppy in it.
> 
> ...


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

So I'm still confused, is it just me? 
Who is your breeder....the owner of the bitch or the owner of the sire?


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## Debanneball (Aug 28, 2014)

Saph, if I read/understood correctly, the owner of the sire.....


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## danas831 (Jan 22, 2015)

Saphire said:


> So I'm still confused, is it just me?
> Who is your breeder....the owner of the bitch or the owner of the sire?


 
The owner of the sire. Since that breeding the owner of the dam refuses all of her phone calls.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Well that doesn't make sense to me. Someone correct me if I'm wrong please. I've never bought a puppy from the Sire of the litter assuming in this case the parents are owned by 2 different people...I think? . It's always been from the owner of the bitch. If perhaps the stud fee was a puppy and the owner of said puppy sold it then the complaint would be with the Sire owner would it not?


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## Debanneball (Aug 28, 2014)

Saphire said:


> Well that doesn't make sense to me. Someone correct me if I'm wrong please. I've never bought a puppy from the Sire of the litter assuming in this case the parents are owned by 2 different people...I think? . It's always been from the owner of the bitch. If perhaps the stud fee was a puppy and the owner of said puppy sold it then the complaint would be with the Sire owner would it not?


Makes sense..


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Ok Sooooooo your complaint should be strictly with the owner of the Sire, not the Dam.
It would be up to the owner of the Sire to discuss the issues with the owner of the Dam.

That's if I understand this right. How did the owner of the Sire come to have custody of the puppy you purchased from him?

This sounds like a really odd arrangement.


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## danas831 (Jan 22, 2015)

Please know that I am not looking to gain anything from this. I am not looking for a refund or anything like that. I merely want to warn people to really do their homework before buying a puppy. I got my pup on a kind of spur of the moment because I fell in love with him but I didn't do much research before hand. I would not trade him in for anything in the world, he is part of my family. I just have a major worry now that I will not have as much time with him as I would have hoped for. But I will get him the best care I can.


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## danas831 (Jan 22, 2015)

Saphire said:


> Ok Sooooooo your complaint should be strictly with the owner of the Sire, not the Dam.
> It would be up to the owner of the Sire to discuss the issues with the owner of the Dam.
> 
> That's if I understand this right. How did the owner of the Sire come to have custody of the puppy you purchased from him?
> ...


This is the other part of the story I was not getting into. The owner of the sire was supposed to keep the dam as part of the arrangement. The onwer of the dam got 2 females from the litter. The owner of the sire had some health issues and so the owner of the dam said she would keep her until her health issues were addressed. This was a verbal agreement. When the time came to get the dam back this other breeder told her there was no such arrangement and kept the dam and then ignored following phone calls. In the meantime the dam was bred with another dog and then following that disappeared. I have been in communication with the breeder I purchased my dog from and she has even offered me a free puppy in the future. I'm not really looking for that I just want to prevent future breedings that may perpetuate the epilepsy.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

danas831 said:


> Please know that I am not looking to gain anything from this. I am not looking for a refund or anything like that. I merely want to warn people to really do their homework before buying a puppy. I got my pup on a kind of spur of the moment because I fell in love with him but I didn't do much research before hand. I would not trade him in for anything in the world, he is part of my family. I just have a major worry now that I will not have as much time with him as I would have hoped for. But I will get him the best care I can.


I totally understand your concerns and what your trying to do but if your breeder is the owner of the Sire then your complaint should be going to him/her. It would then be up to him to contact the owner of the Dam to try and isolate the problem. At least that is what seems normal to me.

Here is a normal scenario that happens on this forum alot. 

Puppy buyer finds breeder (usually the owner of the Dam...could also own Sire) Let's say in this case the Sire is owned by another kennel. You have your receipt, Health guarantee etc. from the person you paid the money too. Puppy develops problems, you notify breeder and discuss options etc. You would not call the owner of the Sire to complain as your guarantee if you have one is not with him.
Your breeder should be researching and contacting the owner of the sire. 

Right now you can not confirm where this problem has originated IMO. It very well could be that owners of both parents have not had any issues with epilepsy up to this point as pointed out earlier.

In the end I'm really sorry your pup is going through this and I hope you can find ways to control it and therefore enjoy a long life with him.

Regardless, your complaint should be with your breeder.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

danas831 said:


> This is the other part of the story I was not getting into. The owner of the sire was supposed to keep the dam as part of the arrangement. The onwer of the dam got 2 females from the litter. The owner of the sire had some health issues and so the owner of the dam said she would keep her until her health issues were addressed. This was a verbal agreement. When the time came to get the dam back this other breeder told her there was no such arrangement and kept the dam and then ignored following phone calls. In the meantime the dam was bred with another dog and then following that disappeared. I have been in communication with the breeder I purchased my dog from and she has even offered me a free puppy in the future. I'm not really looking for that I just want to prevent future breedings that may perpetuate the epilepsy.


Ok I get it now. Your complaint should still be with the owner of the Sire. This owner should be the one tracking down the owner of the Dam to investigate.


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## danas831 (Jan 22, 2015)

Saphire said:


> Ok I get it now. Your complaint should still be with the owner of the Sire. This owner should be the one tracking down the owner of the Dam to investigate.


Yes, and I have addressed it with her and we have had numerous conversations about it because she had the other male who just died of status epilepticus. Unfortunately, she has no luck with other breeder getting back to her.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

The bottom line is you bought from a backyard breeder and the contract on the website is garbage. I'm truly sorry your dog has health issues. Very much so. But I think you are out of luck.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Jax08 said:


> The bottom line is you bought from a backyard breeder and the contract on the website is garbage. I'm truly sorry your dog has health issues. Very much so. But I think you are out of luck.


Regardless, the contract on the website doesn't cover this dog as it was purchased from the owner of the Sire not the owner of the website kennel and dam.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Considering the owner of the stud didn't exactly hold high standards in who they studded their dog out to, I'm going to go out on a limb and say they probably don't have much knowledge of potential health issues from their dog either. It's really not a sure bet that it's from the dam, if it is genetic. Sorry OP


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> The bottom line is you bought from a backyard breeder ... I'm truly sorry your dog has health issues. Very much so. But I think you are out of luck.


I'll take out the blurb on the contract part since it distracted from my main point.


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## danas831 (Jan 22, 2015)

LoveEcho said:


> Considering the owner of the stud didn't exactly hold high standards in who they studded their dog out to, I'm going to go out on a limb and say they probably don't have much knowledge of potential health issues from their dog either. It's really not a sure bet that it's from the dam, if it is genetic. Sorry OP


I can only go by what I am told but she apparently has known the owner of the dam for 20 years and has also never had any health issues in her dogs. Again, I can only go by what I'm told. At this point it will be a cold day in you know what before I buy another dog. This isn't the first time I've had an issue with a breeder. I had a golden retriever that had horrible hip displaysia at the age of 6 months and who died by the age of 8. I really think the world is due for much more stringent laws and health tests when it comes to breeding and sellling dogs.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm truly am sorry you've had health issues with the dogs that you bought. However, I looked at the website you posted before it was taken down and I can say with confidence that it was not a good breeder. 

There are wonderful breeders out there who do health testing. A person needs to do their homework when looking for a breeder. I wish there was a comprehensive site that would automatically come up when ppl start an internet search for breeders in their area but there isn't. All I can so going forward, is really look hard next time.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Most of us don't know just how much we don't know when it comes to finding a good breeder. It took years of involvement with dogs at a high-level of performance training and for me to start to understand and appreciate the difference between a truly responsible, knowledgeable breeder, and one that may seem impressive to a newbie, but is not well regarded by those in the know. 

Health issues are heart breaking, and while they can show up even in the healthiest of lines and from the most reputable of breeders, there is a lot we can do to educate ourselves about responsible breeders and make a confident decision when buying a puppy that will stack the deck in our favour. 

This board offers a lot in terms of educating, hope you hang around and read some posts and ask questions. Many of us have been blessed with gorgeous, healthy dogs when we went with high personal criteria in picking a breeder, guided by some of these philosophies in dog breeding:

http://rufflyspeaking.net/how-to-tell-a-good-breeder-website-from-a-bad-one/

Choosing a Good Breeder - German Shepherd Rescue of Central Colorado

(German Shepherd Breeders, by Wildhaus Kennels)


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## danas831 (Jan 22, 2015)

Castlemaid said:


> Most of us don't know just how much we don't know when it comes to finding a good breeder. It took years of involvement with dogs at a high-level of performance training and for me to start to understand and appreciate the difference between a truly responsible, knowledgeable breeder, and one that may seem impressive to a newbie, but is not well regarded by those in the know.
> 
> Health issues are heart breaking, and while they can show up even in the healthiest of lines and from the most reputable of breeders, there is a lot we can do to educate ourselves about responsible breeders and make a confident decision when buying a puppy that will stack the deck in our favour.
> 
> ...


You are indeed correct, and I know better. I got caught up in adorable puppy and made a rash decision. I still wouldn't trade him for the world. He is beautiful and the most loving dog I've ever had but the epilepsy is truly heartbreaking. Thanks for sharing the information!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Castlemaid said:


> *Most of us don't know just how much we don't know when it comes to finding a good breeder.* It took years of involvement with dogs at a high-level of performance training and for me to start to understand and appreciate the difference between a truly responsible, knowledgeable breeder, and one that may seem impressive to a newbie, but is not well regarded by those in the know.


Well said! If it weren't for this board, I would have been wandering aimlessly looking for a good breeder. Either there is not enough information, or to much conflicting information


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Jax08 said:


> Well said! If it weren't for this board, I would have been wandering aimlessly looking for a good breeder. Either there is not enough information, or to much conflicting information


I'm right there with you.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Let's discuss health testing for a moment. 

There is the OFA, SV=system, and Penn Hip for hip dysplasia, and possibly elbow dysplasia. HD and ED. Some people check the spine as well when they are x-raying. I did on a few. But there was no certificate for that. 

There is a test for DM that is pretty controversial. 

You can do Cardiac through the OFA, but there are actually a couple of different methods. If the vet just listens to the heart and sends it in, they still give you and OFA cert on that. 

There is thyroid through the OFA. 

You can CERF test for the eyes. 

You can do a test for vWd. 

Beyond that, there really aren't that many tests out there. Really. There is no health testing this person could have done to ensure her dog would not throw epileptic puppies. 

There are some great producers back in the lines that have been known as carriers of hemophilia and epilepsy. But the only way to know that is to really dig back into the pedigrees, and to know people, and maybe to happen upon it in a genetics book along the way. There is NO way for a new puppy buyer to have researched the lines free of that disease. Sorry. 

Perhaps your big red flag was them saying they have had GSDs for 20 years and have had no health problems in their lines. That is impossible. I suppose all of their dogs are still hobbling around and 15, 18, and 20? There are health problems in ALL lines. If you breed long enough you will probably hit most of them sooner or later -- at least, that is what a vet told my friend who is a breeder. 

Buying a dog from a breeder does not guaranty you a healthy dog for 13 years that then lets you know it's time so you can put the dog down humanely. If only it did work that way. But it doesn't. Unfortunately, there are a lot of issues in this breed. And GRs are very popular and also have a lot of issues. 

Each breed is known for some problems. 

The other thing you have to realize is that breeders put on their pants every morning the same way the rest of the world does. They are human beings and not one of them is perfect. They often know other breeders and work with them closely. And sometimes, they become disappointed in the other breeder, or they have a falling out. Sometimes, if things are not documented properly due to friendship, people do not honor their word. 

I guess what I would remind the OP of, is that they are hearing one side of the story. There are probably two sides of the story, and the truth is probably somewhere hitting neither completely. 

I think that sometimes, we just have to accept that the life we are responsible for has a problem, and that is life. Some problems are worse, some are less trouble to deal with. But, problems are part of the package when we choose to share our life with a live critter.


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

I once bought a pup who died of a (probably) genetic condition that couldn't be tested for. I didn't hold it against the breeder until she bred the exact same pair again. It's entirely possible for both parents to not express a disease but still produce it. Ironically, I almost died of the same disease but neither of my parents had it nor grandparents. It's hard being alive.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

selzer, good post. first epilepsy is usually easily and cheaply controlled. the op does or should have some kind of health guaranty in writing to fall back on. lets not forget, there are some breeders who shouldn't be breeding.


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