# Couple Of Questions



## Derek W. (3 mo ago)

I am considering purchasing a puppy from this litter in my area, and was hoping ya'll could answer a couple of questions.

Father:




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Mother:




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I like how both parents have some lions mane, and was hoping at least my puppy would have the same coat length/pattern. Is it assumed all of the puppies from this litter will have the same coat length, colors, pigmentation, and patterns as the parents? I have went through a lot of pictures of long coat gsds and have seen some incredibly (no offense) goofy coats/patterns. 😄

However, I did notice the mother has more white patches of fur throughout her black saddle than the father. Is this a genetics or a gender trait? I was wondering if I could expect the same white markings throughout the saddle on male puppy. Are the white patches of fur throughout the black saddle considered a fault for a red/black west german showline gsd? 🤷‍♂️

The mother is a carrier of DM and the breeder is having the puppies tested, which ultimately is my deciding factor for obtaining one of the puppies, however I was merely curious about some of the other traits that I could expect from a puppy in this litter. Does the lineage have any complications or issues that an amateur like myself would need to know about? I am terrified of getting a puppy that's excessively cow-hocked with bad hips, elbow, or joint issues.


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## gsdsteve (Apr 24, 2010)

These, of course, are German showlines. Have you considered working lines?


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## DHau (Feb 24, 2007)

These are gorgeous dogs! I love long coated dogs and just got a German long haired show line puppy 2 weeks ago. The white hair along the back I think is called "bitches stripe.". Most GS dogs have it nowadays and would consider it genetics. I don't care for it myself, but found it difficult to find a dog without it. I don't think it's a fault if you are showing in conformation ring. 

I would stay away from any dog that may be a carrier of DM. I had a dog that had it and it's heart breaking to go through. If you go to a reputable breeder, the mother and father should have been OFA tested which is for hips and elbows as well as DM. I would ask the breeder if the sire has been tested for DM.

For the money you are spending on a purebred long coated dog, I would pass on this litter. There are lots of people who breed long coated German Shepherds.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

I can’t tell you about the lines specifically and what to watch for. I would expect the pull to very much resemble the parents. German showlines are all pretty close in appearance. I’d expect the same color.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

DHau said:


> I would stay away from any dog that may be a carrier of DM. I had a dog that had it and it's heart breaking to go through. If you go to a reputable breeder, the mother and father should have been OFA tested which is for hips and elbows as well as DM. I would ask the breeder if the sire has been tested for DM.


DM carrier has the same risk has a clear. This litter is a clear to a carrier, so it will only produce clear and carriers. That means all the puppies will be low risk. OFA doesn’t test for DM. They aren’t the only organization to certifihips and elbows either. While I’m not a showline person, there’s nothing wrong with this litter and I wouldn’t say the breeder is less than reputable based on what is here.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

You can actually order DM DNA tests from the OFA, that's where I got Halo's. That was before Embark, where you can test for it along with a bunch of other genetic diseases. OFA sends out the test kit, which is returned to a genetics lab at the University of Missouri College of Veterinary Medicine. 






Degenerative Myelopathy | OFA







ofa.org


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## Derek W. (3 mo ago)

gsdsteve said:


> These, of course, are German showlines. Have you considered working lines?


I have considered working lines, but I haven't been able to find any breeders within 500 miles with a beautiful long coat for both parents. There's something about the long coat that really draws me into the gsd, and the litter which I have mentioned is the only one locally that seem somewhat reputable and isn't asking more than $4,500. 



DHau said:


> These are gorgeous dogs! I love long coated dogs and just got a German long haired show line puppy 2 weeks ago. The white hair along the back I think is called "bitches stripe.". Most GS dogs have it nowadays and would consider it genetics. I don't care for it myself, but found it difficult to find a dog without it. I don't think it's a fault if you are showing in conformation ring.
> 
> I would stay away from any dog that may be a carrier of DM. I had a dog that had it and it's heart breaking to go through. If you go to a reputable breeder, the mother and father should have been OFA tested which is for hips and elbows as well as DM. I would ask the breeder if the sire has been tested for DM.
> 
> For the money you are spending on a purebred long coated dog, I would pass on this litter. There are lots of people who breed long coated German Shepherds.


Please, don't be afraid to attach a couple of pictures of your new long coat gsd pup! I've heard the term "bitches stripe" before, but I wasn't entirely sure on it's exact context, which had me wondering if it's something that's gender specific. I'm seeing "a-normal (a1)" for both parents in terms of hips and elbows, which I have been under the assumption that's acceptable.

The breeder is screening for DM and I would only be selecting a puppy that's clear of DM. The sire has been tested for DM and is clear, and the mother is only a carrier. I shouldn't imagine this being an issue since I'm looking for it before the purchase. Unless you know something otherwise?



Bearshandler said:


> I can’t tell you about the lines specifically and what to watch for. I would expect the pull to very much resemble the parents. German showlines are all pretty close in appearance. I’d expect the same color.





Bearshandler said:


> DM carrier has the same risk has a clear. This litter is a clear to a carrier, so it will only produce clear and carriers. That means all the puppies will be low risk. OFA doesn’t test for DM. They aren’t the only organization to certifihips and elbows either. While I’m not a showline person, there’s nothing wrong with this litter and I wouldn’t say the breeder is less than reputable based on what is here.


Thanks for the input! I was assuming that most of the puppies would typically represent at least one of the parents in a specific spectrum. I felt like most characteristics would carry over and mostly was concerned about the white patches of fur in the black saddle. Aesthetically, I was mostly interested in the black mask, dark reds, size/weight, and long/full + dense coats.. the mostly black saddle on the father is nice though.

You reaffirmed what I have read about the mother being a carrier for DM, and I'm only interested in taking a puppy that's DM clear so this shouldn't be an issue with my situation, correct? You mention that you're not a showline person.. could I bother to ask why you're inclined to feel this way? 



Cassidy's Mom said:


> You can actually order DM DNA tests from the OFA, that's where I got Halo's. That was before Embark, where you can test for it along with a bunch of other genetic diseases. OFA sends out the test kit, which is returned to a genetics lab at the University of Missouri College of Veterinary Medicine.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I remember reading something along the lines of a DNA testing mentioned on the breeders website testing for various genetic diseases... can only assume it's one of the newer testing kits that you have mentioned. Embark sounds familiar, but I cannot remember exactly at this moment.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Derek W. said:


> You reaffirmed what I have read about the mother being a carrier for DM, and I'm only interested in taking a puppy that's DM clear so this shouldn't be an issue with my situation, correct? You mention that you're not a showline person.. could I bother to ask why you're inclined to feel this way?


TheDM status along with the rest of the health testing shouldn’t be an issue. Unless you are breeding, there’s no difference between carrier and clear. As for my preference, the temperament I like and look for isn’t found in show lines. While you can find showlines that bring a certain edge and power to their work, the overall package isn’t there. It’s not that I hate them. I’ve seen some I really like, just not the type of dog I’m looking for.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Long coat working line


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

DHau said:


> These are gorgeous dogs! I love long coated dogs and just got a German long haired show line puppy 2 weeks ago. The white hair along the back I think is called "bitches stripe.". Most GS dogs have it nowadays and would consider it genetics. I don't care for it myself, but found it difficult to find a dog without it. I don't think it's a fault if you are showing in conformation ring.
> 
> I would stay away from any dog that may be a carrier of DM. I had a dog that had it and it's heart breaking to go through. If you go to a reputable breeder, the mother and father should have been OFA tested which is for hips and elbows as well as DM. I would ask the breeder if the sire has been tested for DM.
> 
> For the money you are spending on a purebred long coated dog, I would pass on this litter. There are lots of people who breed long coated German Shepherds.


I know this thread is a month old but I think a few things in this post need to be address.

1. A DM carrier is not affected. You can not throw out an entire portion of the breed because they are carriers and reduce the gene pool even further. You breed those dogs to clear dogs. And the OP said the breeder was testing the entire litter. That's above and beyond.

2. These are West German Show Lines. Looking at pedigreedatabase links, it shows their hips and elbows were evaluated under the SV. The SV, and now the USCA, no longer accept OFA eval's because of the inconsistencies in the results. So why do you think they must be tested under OFA when the links clearly show SV results?

3. White on a dog is not the same as a bitches stripe. A bitch stripe is a poorly expressed saddle. Neither the dam or sire have this. White on the chest, toes are a fault if there is to much. This is called residual white. The chest and toes are the last place to produce color in utero. It just sometimes happens and yes, to much is a disqualifying fault.

There is ZERO reason to pass on this litter. These dogs are titled, both lifetime breed surveyed, and health tested. I'm not sure what else you expect from a breeder. Your reasoning is based on a lack of knowledge, not facts. 

Here is all the info on these dogs.




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## mnm (Jan 9, 2006)

DM Clear to a DM Carrier is a completely acceptable breeding. You will get Clears and Carriers. The breeder individually testing puppies is a plus, but not necessary. Not sure where the breeding happened and litter is located, but this is a Long Stock Coat to a Normal Stock Coat. If the mother carries a coat gene, then there will possibly be some long stock coat puppies. If she doesn't, then there can not be any coated puppies. (FYI - Germany doesn't allow Normal to Long Stock breeding's, but it is completely acceptable here in the US with AKC.)

As for coloring, you'd get Black and Red puppies. The Grizzling in the Saddle will come in with age, and does seem to be more pronounced in certain dogs. More than likely. it is genetic. A Bitch Stripe is the white marking across the shoulder blades, and common on all Show Lines.

As for hips, elbows or joint issues, cow hocked, etc... Joint issues are a combination of Genetic and Environmental influences. They are also the luck of the draw, so to say. Most breeders do everything they can to stand the odds for good orthopedics in their favor when doing a breeding, but things can and do happen. Cow hocked seems to show up more in Show Lines, due to the extreme angulation being bred into the rear legs. 

You can get what you are looking for, from working lines, as long as you are upfront with what you want to do and the breeder matches the right puppy with you.



















Two working line Long Coats... full siblings different litters.


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