# Cat that won't defend himself? Warning: long post



## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Ok, so I feel like I'm starting a million threads, but this one is really bothering me. Those of you with cats please weigh in:

So we have two outdoor cats--one 16 months old, Bandit (full claws), and the other 9, BlackJack (no front claws). For lengthy reasons, they don't live in the house, (Fully insulated garage with heated beds that they are locked in at night) but they do come in during the day to lay with us/kids or while we're watching a movie. 

When Rocket first met them a month ago, at 9 weeks, he was very good--cautious, let the cats approach him. BlackJack of course was and still is extremely growly, he rarely sniffs noses when we hold Rocket by him and is not afraid to swat (but no claws), but prefers to run. Bandit on the other hand, liked him right away, and would play briefly with the pup before deciding to run off to do other things. We've had Rocket on a leash so he never learns to chase them, but of course he wants to. So I know that just takes time. BUT--here is where I'm afraid I made a mistake. Since they got along so well, and I knew Rocket didn't have any aggression at his young age, and Bandit seemed to like him and wanted to play, I brought them in the house about 2 weeks ago together, and under our supervision, right in the front room, we took Rocket off his leash and let them play. At first Bandit got "mauled" because Rocket was so excited, but he didn't seem to really mind and we figured he'd let Rocket know if he was being too rough. He has extra thumbs, so extra claws! After a few minutes I pulled Rocket back and Bandit didn't go anywhere, and they continued playing, now with Bandit under a kitchen chair where he could paw and play but not get mauled so much. I even videoed it, (from my phone, I wish I could figure out how to post it here) and re-watching it, it looks good. There are a couple of loud "YIP"s from Rocket, where Bandit obviously got him, which we figured was great, as long as it wasn't his eyes. When Bandit kinda started looking like he wasn't as patient anymore, we held Rocket and let Bandit go back outside. 

So, next day: Same scenario, except now Rocket sees Bandit and thinks "FRIEND!!!" and gets really excited, and when I let him off his leash (in our small front room, we're all there) he LEAPS on Bandit and starts chewing his neck...his ears, and dragging him around by his head. My kids start freaking out a bit, but Bandit doesn't really do anything, and Rocket isn't hurting him, just being --in retrospect--rough. My DH is kinda watching this, though, and Rocket just keeps dragging Bandit by his head...so he says we should stop. I said that EVERYONE, my vet and trainers included, says that the cat will defend himself. But after another minute or two go by, (by now, it's been like 10 mins maybe total) I pull Rocket off and Bandit just kind of lays there in a small, crouched position--upright, but with his eyes closed. We had to pick him up and put him on the couch. Which I always figured he'd at least get himself up or out of the room if he needed to. He just layed on the couch and acted totally subdued, and I made Rocket lay down on the floor and chew his bone. 

So this was 7-10 days ago, and Bandit still acts that way whenever he sees Rocket. The last 5 or so days I've brought them in and had not only a leash on Rocket, but held his collar, said "NO" when ever he's tried to bite (playfully), just kept repeating "gentle, gentle" (which he knows fairly well) and praised licking and sitting and laying. The first 5 minutes are terrible straining, (which I won't let him advance without sitting and if he pulls we stop, so it takes us 2 minutes to get 6 feet), whining, barking...I swear to god puppies have memories like elephants, and he wants to play like he did and will never forget it! He will _slowly_ start to settle, and after 15 minutes or so, will just lay down and co-exist in the same room. 

But my thing is, Bandit acts TOTALLY SUBDUED AND SUBMISSIVE now when Rocket's around. He won't play at all, he won't even bat at Rocket. I'm totally stressing out that I've set them way back, by letting Rocket play so hard that second day. The family that we got Bandit from has a gentle border collie, and I talked to the mom and she said Bandit maybe just doesn't get that a dog can be dangerous, and of course my old dog was a yellow lab who was the epitomy of mellow. He totally ignored the cats, and when they'd try to rub, he'd tolerate it a bit then get up and move. 

So is it possible that a cat will not defend itself? What can I do to help them learn to be friends? Rocket will be 16 weeks tomorrow, so there's still time, right? I know it would be easier if the cats lived inside, but that is just not possible. Right now, bandit is laying in the other room on the couch and Rocket is in here sleeping by me. Just a few minutes ago, we sat in there and I could drop the leash, but after a few minutes, he would whine a bit and get up and nudge Bandit and softly grab his head or ear, (because Bandit's head was the closest part of him). I said NO and leave it and rewarded him. But I think Bandit was traumatized and now won't do anything. It's weird and I've not seen anything like it.


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## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

Wow, I would never have let my puppy play with my cat like that.

The cats have now begun to trust that Stella won't get rough with them and if I think she is being too energetic around the cats, I separate them.

I would definitely pick the cat up and away from the dog if he is playing that rough in the future.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

This is why I have never let my dogs play with my cat. My cat will beat the crap out of a dog but years ago my neighbors let their dogs play too roughly with their cat and the cat ended up with neurological problems! My 19yo cat sleeps with and grooms Rafi (and has done so with most of my other dogs over the course of her life) but they don't play. It's too risky. 

Anyway, at this point I think the best thing to do is to teach Rocket a firm "Leave it" command. In fact, I would teach him to lie down whenever he sees the cat so that he automatically does it. Eventually he will forget about playing with the cat. 

Also, I would get some really yummy treats (even fresh chicken or fish) and start rewarding Bandit for being around Rocket. Hopefully he will recover from the trauma and be comfortable again and hopefully he wasn't injured! 

Just remembering about 5 years ago when my friend brought her gsd over and he did not respect Cleo's hissing and swatting and instead picked her up in his mouth. It was really scary and she ran upstairs and didn't come down for 3 days. 

Also, I would never leave Bandit outside unattended. If he won't defend himself against your dog he's unlikely to defend himself against anything else and that makes him a sitting duck if something comes into your yard.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Yes it is possible that a cat wont defend itself in this situation.

I have 3 dogs (2 GSD) and a lab and 3 indoor only cats. And for the most part everyone gets along just fine. I have 1 cat that rules the house, 1 that ignores the dogs entirely, and 1 that is a scardy cat.

It is my belief that the dogs need to know from the get go that the cats are not toys, they are not playmates, in fact I work very hard to make my dogs think they are lower on the totem pole than the cats. Even with claws, my dogs can KILL my cats. So for me, the teeth of my dogs will NEVER be allowed to touch my cats. It is my job to make sure that all members of my family are treated fairly and dont have to feel like they could be pounced at any second.

I dont think that your pup should be veiwing your cat as a play thing or toy. If you would not have let your dog drag your human child around by its head then why would let your cat suffer through that. Your cat did what it needed to protect itself. Maybe it realized that if it struggled or ran then the pup would be on it again. So it has now learned to "play dead" or be as inconspicuous as possible.

I do have one GSD that loves to chase one of my cats, the scardy cat. And that cat has learned that if she walks into the room and gets the attention of said dog, she freezes. Once I notice, I call the dog to me and she continues to walk into the room. She knows that I will not let anything hurt her and once we are all settled she will even sit on my lap and knead said dog around the neck.

It is important that every animal you care for feel safe, and to be honest you failed your poor kitty in this instance. Your p[up is young and impressionable, now is the time to teach it that teeth are a no no on other animals, to be calm and respectful of other animals in the house, to focus on other things when the cat is in the room.

Good Luck


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Oh boy.  Well, to be fair, Bandit has lived outside since he was born. I've watched him challenge a raccoon, and other dogs that friends have brought over. He's a HUGE mouser and unfortunately birder, too. 

My friend's dog comes over and Bandit will totally swat at her if she gets too close. That particular dog is a great dog, a mix, and I've watched her and her own cat play so awesomely together. In my defense, I asked my vets (that I've gone to for 20 years), two separate trainers in Spokane that are super well known and respected, and they said if they'd already played a bit, to let them try if off leash. I even searched on here in the beginning, and several people said in other threads to let them have it out. I know not everyone did, but it's not like I threw them in a room the first day and shut the door. 

Don't get me wrong, I feel really the same way. I hope it's not too late. I know Rocket was not trying to hurt the cat, he really is very good and gentle most of the time and just wants to play. Just now I picked the cat up and he sat up so I took the kitty over and let them sniff while I held the cat, and Rocket thumped his tail and gave him a big lick on the face. Didn't get up until I got to the door, but didn't try to jump up or anything, and I put the cat out and he didn't try to follow, so maybe I'm making a bit of progress.


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## spidermilk (Mar 18, 2010)

As others have said- I have a dog and a cat (my cat was declawed before we got him) and I would never allow my dog to chase, bite, run into, or smack the cat. He can lay by the cat, lick the cat, or (their favorite game) the dog can lay on his back while the cat crawls on him and licks him.

If your dog can't behave around the cat- I would keep him on leash so that if he starts to misbehave (any of the above mentioned behaviors) you can immediately stop it.

I also don't leave my dog and cat together- even if my cat tried to defend himself he would not be successful if my dog was out of control. 80 lb dog vs. a 11 lb cat? Even if the cat did have claws he would be too easily hurt by a clumsy or playful dog.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Fair enough. 

To be sure, labradors are different dogs, but my 95lb lab lived for 10 years with all three of my cats, some of which were indoors. They were always unsupervised. Lived in perfect harmony.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

My cat can be left alone with only one of my dogs. The other two, no.

The Shiba somehow scared the cat so much at some point that if the Shiba gets too close to the cat, the cat immediately lays down and sort of curls up. He makes no attempt to defend himself, just gives up. I've never let those two be together alone, but when the Shiba was first giving the cat grief, apparently she scared the cat enough to get to this point. 

Bailey wants to play with kitty. Um,,, NO. They're dealt with harshly for attempting to play, annoy, chase or anything with kitty. There is no kitty-doggy interaction. Those that attempt that get a nice squirt of water from mama's water bottle. They don't like that.


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

My cat doesn't defend itself either. I have always intervened between them but Jazz would keep trying until a couple of months ago and he just turned 2 . If I said "leave it" he would but he'd be back at it later. 

I remember once when Jazz was a puppy and woke up in the middle of the night. I took him outside and he did his business and then I put him back in his crate. Well I guess the cat had climbed into the crate while we were out and I ended up locking him in his crate with the cat. Poor kitty :blush:


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I have 4 indoor cats, and the three dogs at the moment, My cats have been raised with the dogs and the puppies raised with the cats..All the cats seem to gravitate towards masi and jynx (my females), they stay away from Jag (male), he's growly and that's all it takes for them to steer clear of him tho he has never hurt them.

Masi gets kinda rough with a couple of the cats, who get rough back OR will just turn opposum(sp) and not move..There is NO dragging them around, jumping on them, just mostly, mouthing, and slobbering them up..

So in my household, I have seen when an otherwise feisty cat will just 'play dead' and not move when masi starts in,,I would never allow her to drag the cat around by it's neck or other body parts...

Sounds like Rocket has alot of puppy in him and just doesn't know appropriate play


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I did not want to come off as saying that you wanted your cat to get to get hurt. Obviously you dont, or you would not be posting this thread

A few suggestions when it comes to training everyone to live in harmony.

1. When the pup gets too excited by seeing the cat, redirect. Find something better.

2. dont find something that gets the pup all riled up. They need to realize that calmness is the way to be around cats. So dont tug, play fetch or otherwise rile the pup up.

3. Do basic focus excersises when the cat is around, i.e "watch me" or "down" or "touch" they are good ways to redirect without getting the pup crazy.

4. make sure the cat has easy ways to get away if the pup gets crazy.

5. make all session short and sweet with lots of praise for calm behavior.

6. Dont let them together if the pup is not exhausted. Do any introductions after a good play session or walk or training, so that the pup is always tired and calm when the cats comes in the room.

7. Teach the pup to give the kitty room. I do this by calling my dog to me and rewarding their attention on me whenever the cats approaches. they will learn that the sight of the cat means " go to mom and get a treat"

8. Teach the cat basic dog warnings. By this I mean, teach the cat to scoot if the dog is growling. I have one cat that wants to knead and be rude even if my GSD is growling. I make sure that all animals in my house understand each other. So If I have cat that decides to curl up to a dog and the dog growls, the cat gets put off the dog. Everyone needs to learn each other. And the dogs need to learn that their warning are rescpected as well.

I know a lot of people think a GSD and a cat cannot get along, but that's wrong. Many of us have that situation in our homes. As the owner you must be aware of the dogs and the cats and make sure that everyone is safe and secure. It can be done.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

My cats just don't understand that a dog can be dangerous, so they won't try to defend themselves. A friend of mine brought her dog over once and he wanted to chase the cats, but they didn't understand they should keep away from him. Of course he was on a leash and we didn't let him actually chase them. Once when I had the cats outside in a carrier, my neighbor's Lab got loose and ran over. The cats didn't even blink an eye when he ran right up to them. He managed to lick one of them in the face through the carrier (he was friendly.)
Then again I raised my cats from 3 weeks old and so they never learned any fear of dogs. They grew up with my dogs who were very gentle and never bothered the cats.

I've never had a problem with Bianca and the cats either. She was raised with cats in her previous home. She did want to play (nicely) with them when I first got her but I just told her 'leave it' a few times and she stopped. She also wanted to play with the cats' wand toys at first but same thing, I told her uh-uh and now she doesn't even pay attention when I'm waving the wand around. The cats treat Bianca like a room fixture or something most of the time. They usually pay her no attention and if she's in the way they'll just leap over her. Once in a while one of the cats will try to groom her face or will rub on her.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

It's definitely not too late! I've trained 5 year old dogs to behave around cats. 

You just have to change the rules so that your cat feels safe and your dog knows he can't play with the cat. He's still a puppy so he will catch on quickly. 

I am more cautious than lots of people with dog/cat interaction. I do leave my cat out with my dog(s) but allow no chasing or roughhousing instigated by either the cat or the dog. When my cat is ticked off she will chase the dogs and swat them (claws out) on the butt.  I don't allow that either. 

We all make mistakes: it's great that you came on here and asked for help.

Here are my two snuggle buddies


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Thank you everyone! I can take my lumps, I'm not offended, gsdar. I knew I'd done something that wasn't great, which is why I posted. Thank you so much for the tips. I'm a bit relieved to know that at least I've been doing _that_ right since the "episode". I'd been doing that all along, I guess I just thought I could hurry things up. Sigh...I'm not always the most patient person. I really want them to get along, at least peacefully even if we never have a "snugglebuddie" picture like the above one. 

Rocket is only 4 months old tomorrow, so hopefully it will soon be a forgotten episode. I am pleased at his progress after the first 5 mins or so go by...that's encouraging, right? LOL 

Any more tips are always appreciated. I'm so glad I have this site to post questions on. I just hope no one gets tired of them.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I have several cats. Vinca, the puppy, loves them all but has to be taught respect and manners. Our outdoor cat put up with a lot when Vinca was little, but now that she's 10 months old, the cat just goes to higher ground to get away from her.

With the indoor cats, I supervise their interactions closely. They play pretty well, but when I hear a hiss or a growl, Vinca gets called off. If she persists, she goes in her crate. The cats must be protected, as a big dog can hurt them without meaning to, and I don't expect the cats to have to defend themselves constantly. And some cats, like yours, simply won't defend themselves. I once had a cat that let the puppy chew on him until he was soaking wet with slobber--once the dog got over the puppy stage, they got along well and even slept together. So, it's not too late for them to be friends. Just keep a close eye on them.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Freestep, when you say chew, what did your cat do? Did he defend himself or just lay there like Bandit? I mean, Bandit does a bit of pawing and will growl lightly, but he's just different a bit around the pup since then. I wish I could figure out how to load that video from my phone, I'd post the first one and then post one of them together now.


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