# AKC Conformation for German bloodlines...?



## tsulli266

We were told not to expect an AKC conformation on our girls because they are German bloodlines. They said they walk "correctly" for German bloodlines, being that their rear legs (fetlock?)are more vertical...and that the American lines rear legs (fetlock?)are more horizontal when they walk. Is hard to describe or explain, but can you picture what I mean? Is this true, would we be wasting our time to show AKC? Thanks.


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## scannergirl

I know there are big differences in conformation, and I've been told that my German working line puppy will not have what the judges are looking for in AKC shows. 
But there are the German shows......Sieger Shows but I do not know a whole lot about them.


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## tsulli266

Hmmm...so I wonder if the AKC conformation is pretty much for the American lines (hence A = American in AKC)????


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## mkennels

it all depends on the judge, i have an american/german bitch they all can see the german in her but everyone has said she is a nice looking girl and would do well once she get her act together, there is also UKC united kennel club that german lines do well in I wouldn't do big akc shows for now just do some smaller ones, akc is so political and ukc is very nice and it seems more and more is going to ukc (it is all owner handle dogs there)


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## tsulli266

What do you consider a big akc show?


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## mkennels

over 500 total dogs and those are the ones that has some breeding with a speciality going on. http://www.infodog.com is a good place for upcoming shows if you havent looked there already


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## JenM66

Do you have to start out as a puppy or can you start older? Are spayed or neutered dogs allowed?


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## Chris Wild

Spayed/neutered dogs are not allowed in AKC or German conformation showing.

I know German conformation showing has classes for pups as young as 3 months old. Not sure about AKC.


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## VKristallaugen4

All Show dogs must be intact, a "show" is basically to compete against the Standard of the breed to determine breeding quality. Spayed/neutered animals obviously can not be bred. That goes for any conformation show ring.

You can start them at any age. MOST German lines will not do well in AKC shows, two completely different interperations of the "Standard".


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## VKristallaugen4

> Originally Posted By: Chris WildSpayed/neutered dogs are not allowed in AKC or German conformation showing.
> 
> I know German conformation showing has classes for pups as young as 3 months old. Not sure about AKC.


AKC does not allow under 6 months of age on the date of the show.


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## Chris Wild

Oops.. it's 4 months for German conformation, not 3.


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## umzilla

> Originally Posted By: Chris WildOops.. it's 4 months for German conformation, not 3.


At the national events (Sieger Shows), yes, 4-6. But at local shows, and probably regionals as well, you can find the 3-6 month class.

Christine


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## Andaka

Here are some links for your information.

GSDCA Club Info 

Jack Onofrio Dog Shows 

Infodog 

The first link is for German Shepherd Clubs in Florida. The second is for Jack Onofrio Dog Shows -- they put on dog shows all over the country. Infodog provides similar info on dog shows.

I recommend that you go to some dog shows, training classes, any place that you will see different styles of German Shepherds. Maybe show your dog once or twice to see how they fit in. 

The UKC may be a better fit for your style of dog. UKC Shows 

But I have a question for you -- why do you want to show your dog?


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## Deejays_Owner

* <span style='font-size: 14pt'>Most German dogs come in Last!!! </span>* 

Only a HANDFUL of AKC Judges like German dogs.
#1 find the right Judge
#2 NEED a Pro handler
#3 the dog has to present itself in a way that American dogs present themselves.

A good post about about German dogs in the AKC ring , see Post from Dan and Marilyn Smith.
Dan Smith is a AKC GSD Judge (has German dogs of his own).
If the German dog is better than the Americans he will put it up,
but the dog has to move like an American, be handled like an American.

German dogs in the AKC ring


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## SouthernBelle

Wow! That whole thread was harsh. I read one person say that the American Show Dogs can not do what they were originally intended to do... herd all day. That is a blanket statement, and an untrue one at that. I know plenty of show dogs that have herding titles, and many other titles aswell. 

IMO, someone, on either side, who is snoddy, jealous or rude about the other, be it, Ambred vs. German or German vs. Ambred, probably just has nothing better to do than trash the other. Its just bad sportsmanship in my mind.

Sometimes the showring is good to me, other times it is not, but I feel like the people on the thread are making it a choose sides type of thing.
whatever, just my opinion. Thanks for posting the link though.


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## Deejays_Owner

There was nothing harsh about it, most was on topic too!
You want to talk harsh see posts on German working vs showing!!

And if you read the posts from the Smith's, its all about the LIKES/DISLIKES of the Judges not the STANDARD SV vs AKC!!


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## SouthernBelle

I'm sorry, but I do consider people calling dogs "crippled" and uncapable of working, harsh. My dog is not crippled and he won best of opposite at an AKC show just last weekend, owner handled. 

Sayin that about all am bred show dogs is the exact same thing as calling all german dogs roach back.... right? Its RUDE and not correct.

I would not want to read the "harsh" posts. I would like to see people of the same breed getting along and understanding that it is the dog that matters. A nice dog is a nice dog, be it German or American IMO.


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## umzilla

> Originally Posted By: SouthernBelle I would like to see people of the same breed getting along and understanding that it is the dog that matters. A nice dog is a nice dog, be it German or American...


...or show, or working, show x work, or Czech, or DDR....When municipalities ban GSDs, they don't differentiate. 

Can't agree with you more.












Christine


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## dOg

Folks tend to rant, be snooty, flame, opine, get indignant, soap box, berate, criticize, belittle and generally be morons, no matter the subject! 

Add anonymity and no ability to see facial expressions or hear tones,
delayed responses, it often only gets worse. 

Luckily for us all, dogs don't do that, and show us all how to be more tolerant, take ourselves less seriously, enjoy the moment.


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## kelso

> Originally Posted By: dOg
> 
> Luckily for us all, dogs don't do that, and show us all how to be more tolerant, take ourselves less seriously, enjoy the moment.


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## SouthernBelle

Oh yes, how I do love my dogs!


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## doggiedad

we have a German import and i've been told and experience the AKC judges view. there's lots of German shows. do both because all judges might not have the same opinon. i know people that only show in the German shows. i'll pm you.


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## denwil2007

You'll never know until you go... And AKC shows are not as political as people say. I think people say that because they are sore losers. I am doing fine as an owner handler.


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## arycrest

I agree that a good German style dog would do fine showing in UKC conformation shows.

If you want to show with AKC I suggest that you avoid the specialty shows which attract the more extreme structures and stick with all breed shows. Choose your breed judges wisely and who knows, you might end up doing very well. BUT as mentioned before, it's expensive since you usually need a professional handler in the AKC GSD conformation ring.

GOOD LUCK on whatever you decide to do!!!


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## denwil2007

you mostly need a handler in the specialty ring, because you are doubling, trying to get the dog to pull out in front of the handler. The all breed rings are usually not big enough to neccessitate having the dog pull out in front of you, and there are more moderate dogs and owner handlers.


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## Deejays_Owner

> Quote:You'll never know until you go... And AKC shows are not as political as people say. I think people say that because they are sore losers. I am doing fine as an owner handler.


What do you call a AKC Judge at a GSD Specialty Show, that makes a comment about * <span style='font-size: 11pt'> he must be a German Dog, </span>*
to my 13 yr old daughter? * <span style='font-size: 11pt'> And made her stay back for the last pass around the ring. </span>*

Here they are with AKC Judge Dan Smith, the same weekend but a different Specialty Show.









My daughter placed him SG1 in the Adult Open Class at the Canadian Nationals & Sieger Show a few weeks latter.
Were he HE measured 25" tall, by SV Judge Mr. Ernst Seifert.
The dog that placed behind him was handled by the Judges grand son, this dog went SG1 at the USA Sieger Show.

And if you looked at the link to the data base post about a VA male that had been was written up in Dog Sports Magazine for his bite-work.
Being told by an AKC Judge that <span style='font-size: 11pt'>*the dog was a mere pet quality dog*.</span>


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## SouthernBelle

> Originally Posted By: Deejays_Owner
> What do you call a AKC Judge at a GSD Specialty Show, that makes a comment about * <span style='font-size: 11pt'> he must be a German Dog, </span>*
> to my 13 yr old daughter? * [size:11pt] And made her stay back for the last pass around the ring. *


* 

I understand your feelings about him saying this to your DD. I think it was not the best idea in the world. Actually kind of rude. 
BUT, the thing is, if you want to show in this, you have to have thick skin. People, not just judges can be extremely hurtful.

But, would you still be this angry had he not made the comment and still held your dog back? That is the question. Maybe that particular judge wasnt fond of his type. Most of the dogs in the ring "fit" the standard... somebodys got to loose... I always hope for the best, and try not to expect the worst.








He is a very nice boy from the pics, I do love the red coloring.*


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## Deejays_Owner

Melissa

Do you show a German dog in the AKC ring?

This post is about how "German bloodlines" would do in the AKC Ring.


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## SouthernBelle

> Originally Posted By: Deejays_OwnerMelissa
> 
> Do you show a German dog in the AKC ring?
> 
> This post is about how "German bloodlines" would do in the AKC Ring.


No, my dog is Am bred. 

That does not change the fact that it is a tough sport. Do you think that because my dog is Am bred I havnt had days that I thought the judge stunk?
But I definently dont need anyone to explain to me what the topic is.


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## Andaka

> Quoteo you show a German dog in the AKC ring?
> 
> This post is about how "German bloodlines" would do in the AKC Ring.


Many of us show in the AKC ring. Sometimes we win, sometimes we lose.







Sometimes we even know that the best dog didn't win.







We see lots of different styles of dogs at the shows. So we can post about our opinions on German dogs in the AKC ring as well as anyone.


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## Deejays_Owner

Daphne

My 1st post still stands, its all about the Judges, not the true STANDARD or the dogs!!!



> Originally Posted By: Deejays_Owner* <span style='font-size: 14pt'>Most German dogs come in Last!!! </span>*
> 
> Only a HANDFUL of AKC Judges like German dogs.
> #1 find the right Judge
> #2 NEED a Pro handler
> #3 the dog has to present itself in a way that American dogs present themselves.


The German dog has to move like an American, be handled like an American with the *RIGHT Judge *and you will be in the points.


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## Andaka

> Quote: The German dog has to move like an American, be handled like an American with the RIGHT Judge and you will be in the points.


That holds true for any dog shown in the AKC ring. I am not capable of showing my own dogs anymore like I used to, so now I have to always hire a handler. Which means I can't show in the UKC shows because I need someone else to show them. So I bash UKC shows as being unimportant because I can't participate -- NO I don't. I also don't bash SV style shows for having only (insert your favorite stereotype here







) dogs and if they only judged to the standard then why didn't my AKC dog win?

I am of the philosophy that you buy a dog to fit the desires you have for that dog. If you want a show dog, then buy a dog from a breeder who competes at the style of shows you want to go to, and who is successful at it. One blue ribbon does not a show dog make. If you want a schutzhund dog, then buy from a breeder who is successful at that sport. Etc and so on.

I am going to go hug my ugly American Show Line dog now.


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## arycrest

Andaka said:


> Quote: ...
> That holds true for any dog shown in the AKC ring. I am not capable of showing my own dogs anymore like I used to, so now I have to always hire a handler. Which means I can't show in the UKC shows because I need someone else to show them. So I bash UKC shows as being unimportant because I can't participate -- NO I don't.
> ...
> 
> 
> 
> It's true you can't have a professional handler take your dog into a UKC ring, but you can have friends, other exhibitors, etc show him. Slider got his UKC championship in three straight shows and I never stepped in the ring. He was handled by a friend once and other exhibitors for the remaining two shows.
Click to expand...


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## EastGSD

People need to understand and *ACCEPT* that you are simply paying an entry fee for that judge's opinion on that day..... and that opinion at that time on that day is what determines the results..but, has no effect on tomorrow.

~ A judge not placing your dog does not mean the dog is garbage or less important, it simply means other dogs met the judge's interpritation of the standard on that day.

~ Judges do not secretly look for the "German dogs" in an AKC ring as if they need to look at them differently, IMO they look at them all the same...but there are differences in the lines lets face reality and some people prefer one type and some another.

~ This is supposed to be a*sport* people and good sportsmanship is a requirement. Watch Westminster? What is the first thing all the "losing" handlers do when BIS is pointed out? They offer congratulations....

~ If you cannot handle this sport and find yourself losing too much sleep over an entry, getting too angry at show results and if you wear your heart on your sleeve this probably is not the "sport" for you....enjoy something else with your dog that causes you less stress and more enjoyment because not every dog can win in the ring every day, not all dogs become champions but all of our dogs are loved and love us in return.

That's my best advice










Cherri-


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## Deejays_Owner

Cherri

You are right its all about the Judges likes, but the German Dog stand out like a sore thumb! 




> Quote:~ This is supposed to be a*sport* people and good sportsmanship is a requirement. Watch Westminster? What is the first thing all the "losing" handlers do when BIS is pointed out? They offer congratulations....


Thats funny at the shows were we had entered people did NOT talk to us , turn their backs to us.

I read a post about Fred Lanting getting *BOOED* at a GSD specialty in Perry, Ga after putting up a German dog!! 

Some real good sportsmanship!!


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## SouthernBelle

If you dont like the AKC ring and have so many bad stories, then why put yourself or your dog through it? There are lots of other activities to do.


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## arycrest

> Originally Posted By: Deejays_Owner...
> Thats funny at the shows were we had entered people did NOT talk to us , turn their backs to us.
> ...


If it makes you feel any better, Slider is 100% all American show lines and people wouldn't talk to us either, turned their backs, wouldn't even smile (this was at all breed shows). His handler and his wife were the only people who treated me like I didn't have some sort of nasty disease. When we were spectators at other breed rings at the same shows, the people seemed friendly, talked, patted Slider, etc.

I was a spectator at a regional specialty over in the Daytona Beach area a few years ago and when I inquired about joining their club I was treated extremely rudly, and I mean the woman was just plain bloody rude, didn't even want to hear about my experiences in other dog clubs (I was even voted the member of the year at the Chesapeake Kennel Club of Maryland). I will never, ever attempt to join another regional GSDCA club again, screw 'em, I'd rather have a root canal without novacane than go thru that crap again with those bloody little snots.

FWIW I'm a content member of the GSDCA parent club. I've only been to one National and I'm not an active club member so maybe that's why I'm happy???


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## gagsd

> Quote:I'd rather have a root canal without novacane than go thru that crap again with those bloody little snots.











Try taking a working line into the AKC conformation ring I do believe we were the invisible pair!!
That was okay though, we were only there for socialization exercises.


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## Deejays_Owner

> Originally Posted By: SouthernBelleIf you dont like the AKC ring and have so many bad stories, then why put yourself or your dog through it? There are lots of other activities to do.


Melissa

That was the point of the thread, German dogs in the AKC ring.
Why do you want to paint a pretty picture for the OP, when you have not shown a German Dog in the AKC ring.
Yes the Judges gave your AM dog a fair Look, this is not the typical case for the German dog.

I have no interest in the show ring, my 13 yr old daughter wanted to do it.
We were at a trial, and a the VP of the GSDCC came up to us and liked my dog.
Wanted us to enter him in the *GSDCC National*, said he would do good.
Note: the Judge that year was *Morton Goldfarb *the only SV/AKC Judge (one of the handful I talked about.)
Anyway I told her if she took handler classes, and train him for the ring, I would pay & support her.
She trained under a ex CKC Judge, that also like him.

She does not want to show him anymore in the CKC/AKC ring!
Thank god she did well in the Canadian Sieger Show, THE ONLY JUNIOR.
Got her picture and story in the local paper.


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## SouthernBelle

I wish her the best of luck! Its nice to hear that kids are interested in things like this. If she sticks with it, it will get better. The judge for Jr.'s should be judging her and not the dog so even if they dont like the dog, I would think she could still get somewhere with it.


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## Deejays_Owner

> Quote:I do believe we were the invisible pair!!












We were at a 3 day (shows) Specialty Event, It was like being in the movie* "Little Miss Sunshine".*
We were treated like the family in the movie, when they go to the child beauty pageant.
What a funny movie









Melissa

She was not showing in Jr's, anyway she got a bad taste in her mouth for the Conformation Ring.
Wants to do performance now, were its only about points!


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## denwil2007

This post seems like it was designed to hide American dog bashing. 


Try taking an american dog in the german show ring. You don't think you'd get the same treatment? 

Many people on this board are treated like crap for just having an American dog, who most of you consider crippled and dumb. Now you see it happen to you on the other side, and you think they should have been more considerate? 

You play on your side of the fence, I'll play on mine. But if you try to cross over, you should probably read the playground rules first. 

As for the cruelty of poeple, no one would even speak to me when I had my amer. bred pet quality dog at the show. 

They wouldn't speak to me either when I brought my Bailey son. 
The world is full of snobs and hypocrites, why should dog shows be the exception?


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## SouthernBelle

Exactly, Chasethedog. 2 sides to each coin.



> Originally Posted By: Deejays_Owner
> Yes the Judges gave your AM dog a fair Look, this is not the typical case for the German dog.


Because you and your friends didnt get put up? To be honest, I havnt seen any German bred dogs in the ring with us.

I know ppl who breed using the German lines and they seem to be doing ok. And I guarentee.. they are not the snotty ppl you refer to.


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## Deejays_Owner

I'm not bashing Am dogs, Why!!
The OP asked the question and I'm telling her what we have learned by doing it.
I just found it funny that someone would say that there is GOOD sportsmanship at a AKC event.
*When the crowd would Boo the Judge for putting up the best dog on that day.*
We have had a fair look from AKC Judges that are know to like the RED dog, were the Judge spends the same
time with every dog in front of him. Has nothing to do with being put up, having a fair look is all that
really matters. Let the best dog win, but remember its all about movement and the look in the AKC ring not the Standard. 

The SV is very different, you stand your dog for the Judge the dogs height is taken, if
over sized you are dismissed. The teeth are counted, everything is recorded. You do your
up & down, then you go around the ring and a gun is shot off, if your dog is not solid under
the gun fire, you are dismissed. Then the judge moves the dogs into rating groups & placement.
*The Judge gives a detailed Critique of all dogs, one at a time for the crowd, giving the pro's and con's.*
The Judge will give your Am dog a Look, if its within the standard and passes the gun shot.
Not saying the people would be any better, not saying the Judge will not give your dog a low placement,
but the rating that he gives will be to the SV (the world GSD) standard.
Some Judges are better than others, but the standard does come into play, were it does not in the AKC ring.


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## VKristallaugen4

I know of a few Germ/American crosses that have done well in the ring. One was an Am Champion and actually ranked #4 nationally for all GSD shown the year she was campaigned, and had multiple BOB and Group placements. Her litter brother was also an Am Champion, he was also the Adult Sieger in the Northeast Region under German judge Lothar Quoll. He has his CD, TT and AD.

Now yes, they maybe crosses and not full german bloodlines, but it does happen. I still beleive that nine times out of ten a full german showline dog is not going to do well in the AKC ring. 

I saw it with my own eyes, even with "TOP" handlers behind the lead. He was a gorgeous dog, but ...........


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## DancingCavy

Actually, I have seen a German-style dog place well in an AKC show (not specialty). Saw him out here last year. Was a very nice-looking dog (as were many of the AKC-style dogs).


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## SouthernBelle

You know what? I seem to remember hearing about a specialty judge who wore a cowboy hat all the time. I have no idea the mans name, but if the dog placed under a specialty judge, that would make it even better for him


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## Andaka

> Quote: seem to remember hearing about a specialty judge who wore a cowboy hat all the time. I have no idea the mans name, but if the dog placed under a specialty judge, that would make it even better for him


I think that the judge is Mr. Norm Herbel. He is from Oklahoma, and has raised German Shepherds for years. His son and DIL are herding judges.


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## denwil2007

no one expects everyone to be fair. that's too much to hope for. Amer or german aside, the best dog does not always win all the time.


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## denwil2007

What bothers me is when people refer to it as the AKC's standard. The AKC has no standards, the GSDCA dictates the standard. With a minor translation glitch, there are no changes or deviations from the original.

It's just that most AKC all breed judges don't really even know the standard, and to tell the truth, not all breeders know it either. They breed what's flashy, because the standard says motion and gate is important, so it's all out for a good mover, and let all else hang. 

Many judges wouldn't know a good gsd if it stared them in the face, and things are put up that shouldn't be.


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## DancingCavy

> Originally Posted By: Andaka I think that the judge is Mr. Norm Herbel. He is from Oklahoma, and has raised German Shepherds for years. His son and DIL are herding judges.


You're 100% correct. That's exactly who that is. I checked my book.


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## doggiedad

> Originally Posted By: chasethedogYou'll never know until you go... And AKC shows are not as political as people say. I think people say that because they are sore losers. I am doing fine as an owner handler.


 is your dog an import??


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## Deejays_Owner

Jamie

Do you have a picture of the dog that won breed?


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## DancingCavy

I believe I do, Brian.








Here's Best of Opposite too:









Personally, I really liked this bitch:









I would have liked to have been there all three days to see what the other judges chose to put up. But I could only do a half day last year.


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## Deejays_Owner

Lets do a little Poll just for fun, which dog would you put up & why?

*#1*








*#2*








*#3*


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## EastGSD

> Originally Posted By: Deejays_OwnerI'm not bashing Am dogs, Why!!
> The OP asked the question and I'm telling her what we have learned by doing it.
> I just found it funny that someone would say that there is GOOD sportsmanship at a AKC event.
> *When the crowd would Boo the Judge for putting up the best dog on that day.*


Correction, I did not claim there is always good sportsmanship, I said people should display good sportsmanship...not everyone does. That is no excuse for others to have none either. As for the Fred Lanting incident, you had to be there....it was a bit more complicated IMO than you are explaining.

Cherri


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## EastGSD

Brian, I would put up number two as he is a very balanced looking dog. Without giving a full critique and without seeing any movement I like #2.

Cherri


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## DancingCavy

Movement of #3:









(Please excuse poor picture quality, I had not thought to increase my ISO that day.)

I might have a movement shot of #2. . .but it's not currently uploaded to my Photobucket account and I'm on my work computer. I'll try and remember to look for one later this weekend.


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## arycrest

> Originally Posted By: EastGSDBrian, I would put up number two as he is a very balanced looking dog. Without giving a full critique and without seeing any movement I like #2.


Judging solely on the photographs which are taken at an angle, I agree that I also like No. 2 best.


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## SouthernBelle

This IS hard, because of the angles and- or the grass and the blocked part of the view by the judge on #1.

I will tell you what I like or dont like about each dog....

#1 I like his masculinity, nice topline and tailset. I think I would like a bit larger ears, although, hard to see with the table there, and a better turn of stifle, again, the judge is in the way.

#2 Nice expression and ear set, nice topline and tail set, love the tail itself not sure if he is not a very mature dog, if he is, would like to see a little more masculine head. A little down in the pasturns? Or is it me?

#3 Nice head and agian, tail. But, looks like a roached back to me.

Again, I am critiquing using these photos, so thats about all I could say.

So, my vote would be #2, #1, #3

JMO


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## denwil2007

> Originally Posted By: doggiedad
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: chasethedogYou'll never know until you go... And AKC shows are not as political as people say. I think people say that because they are sore losers. I am doing fine as an owner handler.
> 
> 
> 
> is your dog an import??
Click to expand...


No, but I do have a working line/showline and I show him also. I don't consider the import thing political. I consider it a difference of opinion and a matter of taste. People are allowed to have different tastes in dogs right? That doesn't make them political.

Define that word anyway... I'm not rich, white, male or well connected, raised in dog sport... all the things that would make a political sport complicated for me. Still I show, and and welcomed by people who are welcoming. in my club, they are breeding imports to amer bred dogs like mad, trying to fix the problems with outcrosses. No one has been laughed at yet for the type of dog they have. We are all members of the same club.


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## denwil2007

#3 I like the dark dogs. Does seem roachy, but has a nice short back.
#2 back might be a bit too long, I agree with southernbelle. He looks like Chopper, perhaps they are about the same age, cause I think he should have a bigger head with all that body. Looks like he has a short crop.

#1 compared to the other two, I'm not a fan of this one.


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## denwil2007

that's not in any order


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## DancingCavy

Again, excuse the poor picture quality. If I make it to the show again this year, I'll be adjusting my ISO appropriately.

Dog #2 (AKC-type) and Dog #3 (FCI-type) gaiting:








Dog #2 and Dog #3 right alongside each other:








And dog #3 in a freestack:


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## Andaka

I would put up number 2, number 1, then number 3. Number one seems to have better balance, a smoother topline, and a better croup. The number 1 dog has very short upper arm, roachy back, and a more abrupt stop than I prefer. The number 3 dog also have a short upper arm and a roachy back, but also isn't as masculine in appearance and also has a steep croup. Notice in his gaiting shot how his rear is higher than his withers.


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## Deejays_Owner

Remember this is just for fun,
#1 in free-stack with dimensions added.








#1 gaiting with the chairs and feet cropped out.


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## denwil2007

He doesn't have the kind of extension that amer judges are looking for.









But he got a nice head, and is not long in the back, which is something I think Amer breds need.


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## Barb E

I learned something very important about 4 years ago from Daphne.
(Don't know if you remember my apology, I do, and to this day I regret that post)

That each type of GSD has good and bad *and* each type of GSD has things that some people love and others hate. 

All American lines are not hock walkers, all German showlines are not banana backed and all working lines aren't out of control monsters. 

Is it too bad the breed has split so obviously into 3 (at least) types?







I can't answer that anymore than I can answer why there are Appaloosas that look just like Nez Perce horses and others look like Quarter Horses or Througbreds with spots. Obvious split in the breed due to what people like.


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## Andaka

> Quote: I learned something very important about 4 years ago from Daphne.
> (Don't know if you remember my apology, I do, and to this day I regret that post)
> 
> That each type of GSD has good and bad and each type of GSD has things that some people love and others hate.
> 
> All American lines are not hock walkers, all German showlines are not banana backed and all working lines aren't out of control monsters.


Thanks Barb.


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## Deejays_Owner

I agree too Barb.

Daphne also made a great point in this thread also.



> Quote:I am of the philosophy that you buy a dog to fit the desires you have for that dog. If you want a show dog, then buy a dog from a breeder who competes at the style of shows you want to go to, and who is successful at it. One blue ribbon does not a show dog make. If you want a schutzhund dog, then buy from a breeder who is successful at that sport. Etc and so on.


Our goal was never to show, gave it a season. Back to our original goals.
Got a few 1st place ribbon in the CKC ring, and a know one is going to know he the only one in the ring at the time








Also went the *2007 Canadian Open Sieger *to boot!!


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## Xeph

I personally think that the biggest difference in the style of the AKC and SV dogs is the amount of angulation in the rear that each standard calls for.

And hey, if any of you have imports that you'd really be willing to try AKC, I'm always here xD People think I'm joking...I'm serious. I'd take an American dog in the German ring too.

Maybe I'm just stupid.


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## DancingCavy

> Originally Posted By: XephMaybe I'm just stupid.


Nah. I don't think you're stupid. Unless I am too. I'm planning on showing my future pup in the SV and AKC rings, despite the fact that he'll be workinglines.


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## VKristallaugen4

> Originally Posted By: XephI personally think that the biggest difference in the style of the AKC and SV dogs is the amount of angulation in the rear that each standard calls for.


It is ONE standard, it's the interperation of the standard that is different.


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## DancingCavy

Agreed. The standards do vary slightly. Mainly in pastern angle and emphasis on gait. Otherwise, they're almost exactly the same.


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## Xeph

It is ONE standard, it's the interperation of the standard that is different.

If it were one standard, the only thing that would vary is a bit of the wording in terms of description of gait or color....the fact that the AKC standard calls for 90 degrees of angulation in the rear and the FCI standard calls for 120 seems a big difference to me (and no, I don't mean numerically, I mean just structure wise...the presentation of rears creates a pretty dramatic difference)


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## SBrieGSD

There have been some German line dogs that have completed their AKC Championship - Dan and Marilyn Jones have finished a number of German and German cross dogs and bitches. If I wanted to show in the AKC conformation ring with a German lines dog, I would go to a show and ask a handler to evaluate my dog. DO NOT do this during the show though. They would be nice but very busy. And Good LUCK!!


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## EastGSD

> Originally Posted By: SBrieGSDThere have been some German line dogs that have completed their AKC Championship - Dan and Marilyn Jones have finished a number of German and German cross dogs and bitches. If I wanted to show in the AKC conformation ring with a German lines dog, I would go to a show and ask a handler to evaluate my dog. DO NOT do this during the show though. They would be nice but very busy. And Good LUCK!!


That's Dan and Marilyn Smith. Dan is an AKC judge and has titled dogs in ScHh years ago and yes uses a number of German dogs in his program that I like very much.

Cherri


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## SBrieGSD

Cherri, you are EXACTLY right!! LOL Sorry - having a Senior moment here. I too know Dan and Marilyn SMITH. Just was thinking of another guy named Dan Jones. Thanks for the correction.


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## Xeph

The Darby-Dan dogs are indeed very nice










I also like what Amari and Fairway are putting out.


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## denwil2007

> Originally Posted By: XephIt is ONE standard, it's the interperation of the standard that is different.
> 
> If it were one standard, the only thing that would vary is a bit of the wording in terms of description of gait or color....the fact that the AKC standard calls for 90 degrees of angulation in the rear and the FCI standard calls for 120 seems a big difference to me (and no, I don't mean numerically, I mean just structure wise...the presentation of rears creates a pretty dramatic difference)


actually, the difference is where the americans are measuring the angle from vs where the germans are measuring it from. the mistake was in the translation, not because the standard was altered. But that comes from lack of proper education of many, most folks don't read the standard (excepts of things about major faults before they show or breed. You would be surprised how many SHOW breeders feel that other SHOW breeders aren't really well versed on the standard.


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## denwil2007

I really like what those three are producing and I think it's a good trend in german shepherds. I really like what Daphne produces too, because if they're pretty but dumb, who cares!

Soemone on this board, I think it is wolfstram, has a working line that I think would do quite well in an AKC ring. 

He's a handsome fella


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