# family defender



## oldskoolsmg (Sep 14, 2016)

Let's say you wanted to create or buy a German shepherd that would be the ultimate family defender and property guardian. Traits I would be looking for would be -

Stable temperament - stable around children.
Medium thresholds - not so high that it won't react but not so low that it reacts over nothing. 
Low prey drive.
High defence drive.
High suspicion.
has to look large and intimidating.
Athletic.
Fearless. 
Highly watchful. 
Loving.
Bonds closely with family.
Has to be a natural born guardian and not so much of a trained guardian.

Are there any breeders - lines or kennels in the world with dogs of this type? Who are they? what bloodlines?


----------



## zetti (May 11, 2014)

High suspicion and high defense are traits you may not want in a family pet. You left out some crucial considerations--strong nerves and super clear headedness. High defense and suspicion in a dog without solid nerves and an extremely clear head are pretty much a guaranteed disaster unless you can secure the dog safely away from people.

Most GSDs are 'natural guardians' in the sense that they will bark at strangers and look intimidating. If you want a dog who will naturally know how and when to bite bad guys--it doesn't work that way.

Getting back to your highly defensive, suspicious GSD. What happens when your kids have friends over and they rough house, as kids are wont to do? What if the dog misreads harmless play as an attack on one of "his" flock?

Some defense drive is desirable, but pet owners should not attempt to handle a highly defensive dog on their own. Also, you will need to commit to a lot of ongoing obedience training with a dog like this.

My worry is that some breeder out there is going to give you exactly what you're asking for. An ethical breeder will educate you about drives, nerves and thresholds instead of just selling you a puppy.


----------



## oldskoolsmg (Sep 14, 2016)

fearless = strong nerves to me. And I did say Stable temperament which is my way of saying clear headedness. I'm not a complete novice, I have a czech working line living at home with my children so I do understand your point about children rough housing. This isn't the sort of dog I want to breed or sell to mis informed families. It's the sort of dog I'd like to own as I become an older man with less strength to defend myself and less energy for all that prey drive.


----------



## oldskoolsmg (Sep 14, 2016)

I heard that some of the van tiekerhook dogs were high defensively.


----------



## zetti (May 11, 2014)

oldskoolsmg said:


> fearless = strong nerves to me. And I did say Stable temperament which is my way of saying clear headedness. I'm not a complete novice, I have a czech working line living at home with my children so I do understand your point about children rough housing. This isn't the sort of dog I want to breed or sell to mis informed families. It's the sort of dog I'd like to own as I become an older man with less strength to defend myself and less energy for all that prey drive.


Ummm, not exactly. Nerves and clear headed have very specific meanings.

You can't get both 'fearless' and high defense. If the dog literally feels no fear, there is nothing from which to defend himself.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

zetti said:


> Ummm, not exactly. Nerves and clear headed have very specific meanings.
> 
> You can't get both 'fearless' and high defense. If the dog literally feels no fear, there is nothing from which to defend himself.


Not to be playing semantics, but in dog terms I think you can have a dog that is fearless and have high defense. Many of the early Czech dogs that I have owned/trained with LE would fall into this category. The dog just has to have stable temperament, but I think the OP indicated that also.
OP.....send me a pm, not sure this is best forum to discuss this type of dog.


----------



## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Why would you say low prey drive. I'd think you would want a good balance.


----------



## Erica0629 (Dec 21, 2016)

Hi, I just was curious how much experience do you have with the GSD breed and do you have any experience working with the kind of dog that you are looking for?


----------



## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

High suspicion (also called sharpness) is not a good thing, at least that's what I was told by someone more experienced than I am. I also thought it was a good trait of a guardian but you want them to be social and clear headed so you can actually take them places, otherwise what's the point of having one?


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Erica0629 said:


> Hi, I just was curious how much experience do you have with the GSD breed and do you have any experience working with the kind of dog that you are looking for?


Right on. OP, do you want the instant perfect dog for you? I doubt that you can find all this in one dog. That was my first thought when I read your requirements, especially this one "Has to be a natural born guardian and not so much of a trained guardian." And how much time and effort are you willing to put in? Owning (a good) GSd is a life style and not "just having a pet".


----------



## SamsontheGSD (Dec 23, 2016)

I always wonder about these type posts. I've never heard of a good GSD that wasn't naturally protective of it's family and home. Is the OP expecting some type of attack?


----------



## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

SamsontheGSD said:


> I always wonder about these type posts. I've never heard of a good GSD that wasn't naturally protective of it's family and home. Is the OP expecting some type of attack?


You have to be prepared when the enemy storms the compound :smile2:


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

SamsontheGSD said:


> I always wonder about these type posts. I've never heard of a good GSD that wasn't naturally protective of it's family and home. Is the OP expecting some type of attack?


It is more common than you think.


----------



## SamsontheGSD (Dec 23, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> SamsontheGSD said:
> 
> 
> > I always wonder about these type posts. I've never heard of a good GSD that wasn't naturally protective of it's family and home. Is the OP expecting some type of attack?
> ...


Unprotective gsds or attacks?


----------



## oldskoolsmg (Sep 14, 2016)

cloudpump said:


> Why would you say low prey drive. I'd think you would want a good balance.


I think that high prey drive helps when training the type of dog that needs training to protect. Most people use prey drive to train attack type dogs like police forces do when the dogs run down criminals. 

A naturally protective dog doesn't need to have high prey drive. It doesn't need to be taught how to protect through prey drive training. Most flock guardian breeds have very low prey drive and are super protective. 

Lets Imagine that three men start sneaking around your property at night. I don't want the dog to wake up and chase one of the men half a mile down the road. That still leaves two bad guys close to me. I think low prey drive dogs are more likely to stick around. Low prey drive dogs should be easier to live with on a day to day basis. 

A dog with high prey drive could become easily tricked, - Open the gate then throw a ball and when the dog goes chasing after it you've just locked him out.

This is how I seem to see it. Somebody with more experience may put me straight however.


----------



## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

oldskoolsmg said:


> I think that high prey drive helps when training the type of dog that needs training to protect. Most people use prey drive to train attack type dogs like police forces do when the dogs run down criminals.
> 
> A naturally protective dog doesn't need to have high prey drive. It doesn't need to be taught how to protect through prey drive training. Most flock guardian breeds have very low prey drive and are super protective.
> 
> ...


Fight drive is tied into prey and defense drive. I'd think youd want a good balance. 
I'd want a dog that is protecting me to have enough prey drive and fight drive to stay in the fight.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

SamsontheGSD said:


> Unprotective gsds or attacks?


Unprotective GSDs.


----------



## oldskoolsmg (Sep 14, 2016)

Erica0629 said:


> Hi, I just was curious how much experience do you have with the GSD breed and do you have any experience working with the kind of dog that you are looking for?


As far as knowing about the different breeds of dogs and their natural traits then Id say that I'm quite knowledgeable. In this respect I definitely understand allot more than the average joe. As far as actual training goes then this is my weaker point. I did grow up with a gsd in my teen years and he traveled everywhere with me. I now own a 10 month old female czech shepherd that i'm doing quite well with, but this Is my first real dog. I'm quite knowledgeable with things like pack structure and dog language. I havent attended any schutzhund classes or anything like that. I do however reed about different dog breeds and behaviour almost every day as this is a passion of mine.


----------



## oldskoolsmg (Sep 14, 2016)

cloudpump said:


> Fight drive is tied into prey and defense drive. I'd think youd want a good balance.
> I'd want a dog that is protecting me to have enough prey drive and fight drive to stay in the fight.


How does this work with gsd then because breeds like anatolian shepherds or akita's have very little prey drive but they have bags of fight drive?


----------



## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

oldskoolsmg said:


> How does this work with gsd then because breeds like anatolian shepherds or akita's have very little prey drive but they have bags of fight drive?


Akitas have high prey drive. Anatolians are lgd. Pack drive?
Obviously I'm not an expert on drives. I just know that you'd be better off with balanced drives.


----------



## oldskoolsmg (Sep 14, 2016)

wolfy dog said:


> Right on. OP, do you want the instant perfect dog for you? I doubt that you can find all this in one dog. That was my first thought when I read your requirements, especially this one "Has to be a natural born guardian and not so much of a trained guardian." And how much time and effort are you willing to put in? Owning (a good) GSd is a life style and not "just having a pet".


No I very much doubt that I will ever find the perfect dog that has all the traits that I've mentioned. A dog with some or most of these traits would be a very good start however.


----------



## oldskoolsmg (Sep 14, 2016)

cloudpump said:


> Akitas have high prey drive. Anatolians are lgd. Pack drive?
> Obviously I'm not an expert on drives. I just know that you'd be better off with balanced drives.


akitas don't usually chase after balls. I believe this means that they have low prey drive.


----------



## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

oldskoolsmg said:


> akitas don't usually chase after balls. I believe this means that they have low prey drive.


Professional dog trainers in the dog protection industry for instance may look for this trait albeit not too over the top for they still have to have control to train a stop or get out. Dogs with high prey drive are not good though for the average pet owner. There are some breeds with a higher genetic predisposition to this and these are best avoided by the new or inexperienced owner and indeed many experienced owners, they are mentioned in the which breed section but to refresh The Husky, Malamute and Akita are most prolific. When taking on a new dog you should do some research on the breed or if a cross the breeds that are showing most in the cross as some of the other more obscure breeds will have a highish prey drive, the Coonhound, Rhidgeback, for instance, and if early learning, environment and socialisation are not good then prey drive could become a serious problem. 

The canine prey drive instinct


----------



## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

oldskoolsmg said:


> akitas don't usually chase after balls. I believe this means that they have low prey drive.


Chasing ball does not equal prey drive. Some dogs can express prey drive by fetch games but others not so much. Akitas and Huskies can be like that.

I had a dog that was high enough in prey drive that he killed a cat, but he had zero interest in balls, frisbees, thrown toys, etc.


----------



## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Unprotective GSDs.


This was is kind of funny for me. My new pup Shelby is nearly 3 years old. One of the reasons her owner wanted to get rid of her is because she wasn't protective, they'd never heard her bark and she was way to friendly for them. She was 100% an outside dog and was obviously beaten by them. Fast forward us having her 3-ish months and she now lives in the house and is getting more confident, she now does an alert bark, 1 or two times and then wants to go say hi.


----------

