# Shock collar!!!! Some of u might be interestd



## SamP (Feb 25, 2010)

Quote:
*NSCC on Facebook!*

The No Shock Collar Coalition launched its Facebook Cause today, March 2, 2010. 
This will be one of the fastest and most effective ways for NSCC members and others to communicate and get our message out. If you're on Facebook already, please join our cause, and encourage all your friends to join. If you're not on Facbook, please join, make some friends, and then encourage them to join!

Our goal is to have 1 million supporters on Facebook by June 30, 2010!

This grassroots effort can only be successful if everyone takes a moment to pass the message along, so please take a moment and do your duty for the dogs! Find our Facebook cause at:

Causes | Facebook
Thank you in advance for your support. Remember that a handful of committed people can make a huge difference for good!

With gratitude to those who honor and respect our canine brethren, I remain

Sincerely,


Barbara Davis, CPDT-KA, CPDT
BADDogsInc
Family Dog Training & Behavior
Corona, CA 
yay, NSCC! 


*if U are NOT a Facebook member* - Go here to BROWSE 

___________________pasted copy __________________________________ 

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New to causes? Browse causes supporting:

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click on ANIMALS - a page to browse comes up - 
type No Shock Collar Coalition into the SEARCH box, at upper-right... (or copy-paste this phrase







) 
the Group-page comes up...










*edited to add:* 
an invitation to sign the original statement, too... 
Quote:
About
*In spring of 2006, a group of dog trainers and behavior consultants became increasingly alarmed at the proliferation of shock collar use among companion dog owners, inexperienced trainers and 'behaviorists', as well as the way the use of these devices was being promoted by their manufacturers.* 
From that concern, the No Shock Collar Coalition came about. 
The NSCC began merely as a *silent protest against the inhumane use of pain-delivering devices used in the name of 'dog training'*, and I created a single web page where principaled people could come and mark their name in a public place to protest *the inhumane use of shock on companion canines in the name of training.*

*These devices are appearing with ever-increasing frequency in commercially available and inexpensive training "tools" sold freely over the counter to people who are completely ignorant about their capacity for harm. They are available as "bark collars", "remote collars" and invisible containment systems for both indoor and outdoor use.*

We know that these devices are *designed to work by the application of an aversive* (pain, discomfort, fear, startle) which ultimately has a detrimental impact on the dog's learning, and *many of their proponents are attempting to sell this training to the unknowing public by characterizing the electric shock as a "stimulation", "stim", "nick" or "tap"; these are all euphemisms for an electric shock.*

Every day, we receive 5-10 more requests to join this list, and as we move into 2010, we anticipate having over 1000 names displayed here. *As a cohesive force, we'll be moving forward with plans to speak out more vocally against the use of these devices, and make our positions known to their manufacturers, distributors and retailers, and any individual or business who sells these units or advertises them. We'll also be amassing and presenting a library of information about shock collars and the harm done by these devices, as a reference to dog trainers, behavior consultants and dog owners.*

If you'd like to *add your name* to the growing list of professional dog trainers, behavior consultants, pet parents and others who want to take a stand against the use of electric shock collars for training dogs and controlling their behavior, please sign-up http://www.noshockcollars.com 

Positions
*1. Dogs have been effectively and humanely trained for hundreds of years without resorting to the use of shock
2. The use of pain, fear or intimidation in the training of dogs is inhumane and unnecessary
3. Domestic dogs are partners in our lives and work
4. We are the custodians of our dogs and have the responsibility to treat them with kindness
5. visit http://www.noshockcollars.com for more information *

:wild::happyboogie::happyboogie::happyboogie::happyboogie::happyboogie::happyboogie::happyboogie::happyboogie::happyboogie::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## crs996 (Sep 19, 2001)

E-collars have their place, if some people don't like them they shouldn't use them. For those that do, education is the key.

There was a show recently that documented a working farm dog that was obsessed with biting tires and had lost an eye from being run over and suffered various other injuries. The e-collar was used to prevent further injuries, which is more cruel?


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## SamP (Feb 25, 2010)

*Mmmm*



crs996 said:


> E-collars have their place, if some people don't like them they shouldn't use them. For those that do, education is the key.
> 
> There was a show recently that documented a working farm dog that was obsessed with biting tires and had lost an eye from being run over and suffered various other injuries. The e-collar was used to prevent further injuries, which is more cruel?


 

It's a personal thing, but i would prefer to bring in a trainer rather than inflict pain. I raise my dogs with my family & i certainy wouldnt put a collar on one of my kids for misbehaving!!!! Each to their own.:laugh:


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## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

Nevermind. Member asked for permission from the writer of this text to post it here. Thank you.


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## crs996 (Sep 19, 2001)

SamP said:


> It's a personal thing


Exactly...


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Education is the key - not outright banning. Shock collars have their place and their uses. 

I don't think a tool I have been using humanly (set so low it does NOT cause pain) should be taken away because other people out there are idiots and don't understand how to train a dog.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Castlemaid said:


> Education is the key - not outright banning. Shock collars have their place and their uses.
> 
> I don't think a tool I have been using humanly (set so low it does NOT cause pain) should be taken away because other people out there are idiots and don't understand how to train a dog.


Worth repeating

Same mindset of baning breeds, or anything you don't fully understand and fear.
:thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown:


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

I don't support this at all, and likely 99% of people who DO support it have never even seen a shock collar in use before, let alone are educated enough about them to make a proper decision.

I do not take training advice from the average 'oh-my-little-dog-is-biting-your-dog-how-cute' Joe.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

I've never used a shock collar, never plan on using one. BUT IMHO there is a place for them when used correctly and there's no way I would support such a movement.

There are too many busy bodies sticking their noses into everyone's business these days resulting in breed bans, mandatory spay neuter, groups wanting to eradicate animal ownership, etc. We don't need another "do good" movement to fight.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I've seen more damage inflicted by people leaving flat nylon collars on their dogs. Where's the coalition banning nylon collars?....


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## smerry (Dec 5, 2009)

Liesje said:


> I've seen more damage inflicted by people leaving flat nylon collars on their dogs. Where's the coalition banning nylon collars?....





arycrest said:


> I've never used a shock collar, never plan on using one. BUT IMHO there is a place for them when used correctly and there's no way I would support such a movement.
> 
> There are too many busy bodies sticking their noses into everyone's business these days resulting in breed bans, mandatory spay neuter, groups wanting to eradicate animal ownership, etc. We don't need another "do good" movement to fight.


:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup::thumbup:


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

They can be a very effective training tool when used properly. I am also against any outright ban on them.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Unfortunately this site will be viewed and supported by naive non dog people who believe the anti's propaganda. "Shock" collar sounds so cruel and inhumane. "Why would people want to fry their dogs?" or "the collars are cruel because they burn the dogs", etc.


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## JOSHUA SAMPSON (Feb 21, 2010)

*shock collars are not cruel*

I have been hit with a taser for training purposes, I have also been accidentally hit wth a shock collar. i can tell you from personal experience it is not what I would call "pain". you can most definately feel it and it is not plesant but also not painfull and it does no physical harm and it's not torture unless you abuse it. besides most e-collars have a beep before shock and beep only button. Taser has done encyclopedias worth of research on the taser use and it is the same concept with a shock collar. It is a very effective tool to keep a working k9 in check while working off leash. I personally think i want to start a facebook group called the Shock Collars Save Dogs Lives Coalition SCSDLC (couldnt come up with a good group name acronym) but i have to wait until i get off work. when i do i will post it here. It's ridiculous to think that such a valuable tool would be banned because some non dog hippies think it's cruel. Just like any tool it can be used in a cruel way. Just like the guy who bashed his dog in the head with a sledgehammer (post from yesterday) but we dont see any no sledge hammer coalitions do we? it is the person who is to blame not the tool. just like guns. If you ban guns people will use arrows and spears. ban them and people will use rocks, ban rocks and people will use fists, then you have to ban people. just my $0.02


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

I dont think I would want the collar BANNED.
I dont use one for my own reasons, but then you would also have to ban pinch collars,choke collars etc


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I do not use shock collars or prong collars, but I do not think that we should waste tax payer monies to ban them and enforce a ban on them. 

I think education IS the key. The pros and the cons can educate people and people can make up their own minds about how they want to proceed and with what tools. 

If we want to get on a ban band wagon, there are probably people out there who have tried to ban or that would ban one or more of the following:

Prong collars
crates
kennels
chains
collars
halti/head collars
harnesses
weight pulling
agility equipment
dog shows/trials
dog racing
ear cropping
tail docking
reproductive organs
dog clothing
choke chains
dog jewelry
hunting with dogs

and a bazillion other things I am not thinking of right now.


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## milkmoney11 (Feb 11, 2010)

SamP said:


> It's a personal thing, but i would prefer to bring in a trainer rather than inflict pain. I raise my dogs with my family & i certainy wouldnt put a collar on one of my kids for misbehaving!!!! Each to their own.:laugh:


You use a regular collar on your dogs though right? Would you put one of these on your kids? 

Naa...just messing with ya. But I am one who uses one responsibly so I don't support either. 

There is far worse damage being done to dogs out there outside of training collars that this energy should be put towards stopping instead.


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## JOSHUA SAMPSON (Feb 21, 2010)

I think the only member on this thread that supprts banning them is the OP


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

What a ridiculous concept. The problem is, it's easy for the uninformed to jump on anyones band wagon. Groups such as that represented by the OP play very loosely with the truth. They would prefer to live in a world with their eyes closed rather than know that truth. 

DFrost


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

JOSHUA SAMPSON said:


> I have been hit with a taser for training purposes, I have also been accidentally hit wth a shock collar. i can tell you from personal experience it is not what I would call "pain". you can most definately feel it and it is not plesant but also not painfull and it does no physical harm and it's not torture unless you abuse it. besides most e-collars have a beep before shock and beep only button. Taser has done encyclopedias worth of research on the taser use and it is the same concept with a shock collar. It is a very effective tool to keep a working k9 in check while working off leash. I personally think i want to start a facebook group called the Shock Collars Save Dogs Lives Coalition SCSDLC (couldnt come up with a good group name acronym) but i have to wait until i get off work. when i do i will post it here. It's ridiculous to think that such a valuable tool would be banned because some non dog hippies think it's cruel. Just like any tool it can be used in a cruel way. Just like the guy who bashed his dog in the head with a sledgehammer (post from yesterday) but we dont see any no sledge hammer coalitions do we?* it is the person who is to blame not the tool. *just like guns. If you ban guns people will use arrows and spears. ban them and people will use rocks, ban rocks and people will use fists, then you have to ban people. just my $0.02


Excellent post. Bolded to reflect the part that I think is most important


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

I think the shock collar is misused by most people, but I'm totally against banning them as I think most people misuse all training collars too. This is a tool that has it's place for some dogs in some situations by some people. Education is what's needed and not a ban.


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

I seriously doubt that you know "most" people that use shock collars. It's people making statements such as above that fuels moronic groups like the OP is supporting.

DFrost


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

SamP said:


> It's a personal thing, but i would prefer to bring in a trainer rather than inflict pain. I raise my dogs with my family & i certainy wouldnt put a collar on one of my kids for misbehaving!!!! Each to their own.:laugh:


You do realize that using a shock collar is the most humanly thing you can do, IF you use it properly and the right way?


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

"I seriously doubt that you know "most" people that use shock collars. It's people making statements such as above that fuels moronic groups like the OP is supporting."

Oh, baloney! There are so few people that actually know how to use these things correctly out there compared to how many people are using them and these require a lot of education and training to use which the vast majority of people do not have. Good grief, the general public still can't figure out how to use a regular training collar, much less a shock collar.

DFrost, maybe you didn't catch the part where I said I'm against banning them?!


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## Busters Mama (Feb 23, 2010)

Not being a profession like so many of you here I would like someone to explain to me what is a good use for a Shock Collar and Why. I am curious.


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## rome_lucyGSD (Mar 6, 2010)

milkmoney11 said:


> You use a regular collar on your dogs though right? Would you put one of these on your kids?
> 
> Naa...just messing with ya. But I am one who uses one responsibly so I don't support either.
> 
> There is far worse damage being done to dogs out there outside of training collars that this energy should be put towards stopping instead.


 
Exactly!!

like stopping ILLEGAL DOG FIGHTING!


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## Kayla's Dad (Jul 2, 2007)

Busters Mama said:


> Not being a profession like so many of you here I would like someone to explain to me what is a good use for a Shock Collar and Why. I am curious.


I have not used one, but for what I've read an electric collar is used to enhance behaviors and as corrections when the dog is not performing behaviors such as a recall (after you have called the dog) Like with other forms of corrections, you need to teach the behavior first before using an electric collar.

Use the search function, and search for electric collars-IMO more often than not, when folks use the term "shock" collar, it is with negative opinions and conclusions toward it's use so you are more likely to heard the negative rather than the positive or neutral opinions that come out. Just be careful as this is a volatile topic-make sure those who are giving opinions or positions against the use of an electric collar (like the OP here) have actually used or seen them used properly.

You can also check Lou Castle's website for tons of information on the use of electric collars. He's a member here as well and pipes in quite frequently when this topic comes up.


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

Elaine;1780403DFrost said:


> I did catch that, didn't say anything about you supporting the ban. My comment was about the folks that use it. I know many that use it, and use it properly and to great benefit. While I don't doubt there is the occasional moron who has absolutely no idea about the proper use of the collar, I sincerely doubt, in relative terms, they outnumber those that use it properly.
> 
> DFrost


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

SamP said:


> It's a personal thing, but i would prefer to bring in a trainer rather than inflict pain. I raise my dogs with my family & i certainy wouldnt put a collar on one of my kids for misbehaving!!!! Each to their own.


 
Why do so many of you folks think that an Ecollar must _"inflict pain"_ to work? As a couple of posts in this thread say, _"education is the key."_ Perhaps if members of this _"coalition"_ learned something about the tool? 

Of all the tools used in dog training an Ecollar is probably among *the least abused! * If nothing else, it's about the number of them in use, relative to other tools out there.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Busters Mama said:


> Not being a profession like so many of you here I would like someone to explain to me what is a good use for a Shock Collar and Why. I am curious.


One of the most common reasons that people turn to an Ecollar is that they discover that their use of other methods has not given satisfactory results in the face of distractions, particularly for the recall command. And so, they go looking for something to help. Many of them find the Ecollar. 

It's a great tool to use to teach the recall. HERE'S how I suggest it be done. It happens at the level that the dog first perceives it. No one who has felt the level where they first perceive it, would call that _"pain."_ The problem is that FEW members of this _"coalition"_ have ANY experience with the tool. MOST of them are working off the myths, the misconceptions and outright lies that are told about it. And they're doing nothing to learn. They prefer to perpetuate the misinformation. 

Think about this, your dog is not obeying your command to recall and he's running towards a busy street. What do you do?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

What do I do?

Happened today. My puppy NORMALLY goes right to the front door when I let her out of my car. Today she decided to follow my track down the drive to my mailbox across the street -- rural road where people drive like maniacs. 

I did not notice right away because I was fiddling with the junk in the back of my vehicle. I turned and she was nearing the road. 

I called and ran toward the house. It worked. She turned and ran after me. No shock collar was needed. Puppy is safe. Owner's heart is back down to normal now.


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## crs996 (Sep 19, 2001)

Recall training might not be high on my priority list for e-collar use (although it is effective), but there are many situations involving obsessive behavior, poison proofing, or behavior that only occurs when the dog thinks you're not home that can quickly and easily curbed with e-collars. I don't know how poison proofing can be effectively done otherwise. They are effective in cases where standard corrections are not possible and you don't have 6 months for chicken treat clicker training.

An example is when I had a dog that was crazy about chasing livestock when we weren't home. He'd jump fences etc. to get to them, so I hired a trainer and in just one afternoon, the behavior was stopped with an e-collar. Where I lived, dogs could be legally shot for harassing livestock, so clicker food bribing was out of the question, it needed to be stopped NOW.

By the way, I had my dogs poison proofed with an e-collar due to some local dog poisonings, the avoidance of food thrown over the gate was amazing and lasted for years, and gave me peace of mind.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If I had a dog that chased livestock, I would not give it the opportunity to do so. That might mean crating or kenneling indoors. 

If someone is willing to throw poisoned meat to your dogs, they might shoot them with bow or gun. If you are that worried about hostile people, the dog should not be where they can get to them. 

I do not find these as reasons to put an e-collar on a dog. 

People zap themselves with the collar and say it is not so bad. But dogs seem to be hyper sensitive to electricity. For instance, they can sense electrical storms long before we can. And a dog will not let you know they are hurting until it is excruciating, so if the dog IS reacting to it, it may be bothering them much more than we think it is. 

Someone suggeste it is the only humane way to train, and I disagree completely. I also think that a dog that cannot be trained without the use of an e-collar, prong collar, halti collar, or special harness should be bred as I believe if a dog cannot be trained without such gadgets, there is something wrong with them. This does not mean that people using them as a shortcut to training have something wrong with their dogs. Only if the dog is considered untrainable without these devices, then they should not be bred.


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

selzer said:


> People zap themselves with the collar and say it is not so bad. But dogs seem to be hyper sensitive to electricity. For instance, they can sense electrical storms long before we can. And a dog will not let you know they are hurting until it is excruciating, so if the dog IS reacting to it, it may be bothering them much more than we think it is.


I think they use other senses to sense electrical storms though, not touch. I think every dog and person is different, and while one dog might not be able to feel level 20, that might be a horrible experience for another dog. People are different too. My boyfriend can't feel the shock until level 24. I can feel it on level 1.

I actually think dogs overreact to pain because they need to vocalize to tell the other dog(or person) "hey, what you're doing hurts!". When two dogs are playing and things get a little rough, a dog will yelp even if it didn't actually hurt that much, or if it just got pinched by accident. When I accidentally step on my dogs foot, he lets out a yelp. When I use a shock collar correction, he just blinks or looks down. I don't think dogs try to hide pain.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Syaoransbear said:


> I think they use other senses to sense electrical storms though, not touch. I think every dog and person is different, and while one dog might not be able to feel level 20, that might be a horrible experience for another dog. People are different too. My boyfriend can't feel the shock until level 24. I can feel it on level 1.
> 
> I actually think dogs overreact to pain because they need to vocalize to tell the other dog(or person) "hey, what you're doing hurts!". When two dogs are playing and things get a little rough, a dog will yelp even if it didn't actually hurt that much, or if it just got pinched by accident. When I accidentally step on my dogs foot, he lets out a yelp. When I use a shock collar correction, he just blinks or looks down. I don't think dogs try to hide pain.


And some dogs yelp before they got even touched at all...

We have e-fences for the horses. Do you know how many times one of the dogs peed against it or even ran into it while they were playing? I touched it plenty of times myself and "yelped" myself but not because it hurt me. It was more the surprise that I got a light electro hit myself.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

selzer said:


> What do I do? … I called and ran toward the house. It worked. She turned and ran after me. No shock collar was needed. Puppy is safe. Owner's heart is back down to normal now.


You seem to have missed this part *"your dog is not obeying your command to recall" *unless you mean for your answer to be _"run toward the house."_ if so it merely points out that your dog is not very highly driven to run down the drive. If a dog IS highly driven you might as well set off a bomb, it's not going to turn to see what you are doing. 

So I'll rephrase. Your dog, who lives to chase cats, is chasing one towards a busy road and is not obeying your repeated commands to recall. What do you do. Please don't waste our time with comments like _"… my dog doesn’t like to chase cats."_ That's just begging the question.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

crs996 said:


> Recall training might not be high on my priority list for e-collar use (although it is effective)


 

It is QUITE high on the list for many. It's effectiveness, as you say, is one reason for this. Another reason is the frequent failure of dogs to recall when distractions are present when some methods are used.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

selzer said:


> People zap themselves with the collar and say it is not so bad. But dogs seem to be hyper sensitive to electricity. For instance, they can sense electrical storms long before we can.


I think we've had this exchange before and you've been asked to provide a scientific source for the claim that dogs are "hypersensitive to electricity." I've never seen such a citation. Your statement regarding their ability to sense electrical storms before we can may also be due to (and is much more likely to be due to) a change in barometric pressure that occurs as these storms approach. 




selzer said:


> And a dog will not let you know they are hurting until it is excruciating, so if the dog IS reacting to it, it may be bothering them much more than we think it is.


Many dogs hide chronic (that means long–term) pain. The sudden onset of pain, as is the case with an Ecollar, is *never hidden *to someone who is a good observer. And even a beginner can learn the signs with a small bit of training. 

But we're back to a discussion of pain again and it's not necessary that an Ecollar cause pain to get results. Pain, as any reasonable person knows, is a continuum. It ranges from the highest possible level that makes you jump up and run out of the room. To the lowest level, where the basic work with the Ecollar is done. It's closer to _"It's chilly; I think I need a sweater." _The most common response from a dog who's feeling his first Ecollar stim is to sit and scratch as if from a single flea bite or to look at the ground. If you want to call that "pain" feel free but I think it's absurd! 

I think, as does any reasonable, rational person, that the discomfort of an Ecollar stim used at the appropriate level is not pain. Dogs (all animals in fact) respond to the sudden onset of pain the same way. They move away from it as quickly as they can, often jumping, often vocalizing. 




selzer said:


> Someone suggeste it is the only humane way to train, and I disagree completely.


 

I don't think that anyone has said any such thing in this discussion. Perhaps you mean it happened elsewhere? If so, please provide a link. 




selzer said:


> I also think that a dog that cannot be trained without the use of an e-collar, prong collar, halti collar, or special harness should be bred as I believe if a dog cannot be trained without such gadgets, there is something wrong with them.


There's nothing wrong with such dogs, it's the ineffective training methods that people insist on using (even though they don't produce results) that are at fault. Among people who compete or those who search for lost persons or criminals, such highly driven dogs are VERY desirable. Dogs with lesser drive levels quit when the going gets tough. 

When people talk about _breeding better dogs _drive level is one thing they're talking about. For a working dog, higher is generally better when the drive goes towards the work.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Mrs.K said:


> We have e-fences for the horses. Do you know how many times one of the dogs peed against it or even ran into it while they were playing? I touched it plenty of times myself and "yelped" myself but not because it hurt me. It was more the surprise that I got a light electro hit myself.


Any idea of how an Ecollar stim relates to a charged fence used for livestock? An Ecollar used, as I advocate, emits 0.000005 Joules. An electric fence charger emits 3.2 Joules, *640,000 times more powerful. *Notice that the _"Coalition"_ is not opposed to livestock fences.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

LouCastle said:


> Any idea of how an Ecollar stim relates to a charged fence used for livestock? An Ecollar used, as I advocate, emits 0.000005 Joules. An electric fence charger emits 3.2 Joules, *640,000 times more powerful. *Notice that the _"Coalition"_ is not opposed to livestock fences.


yes, it is much more poweful. And many people just don't understand how an e-collar really works. All they see is the E in front of the collar...


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

if i remember correctly my kids use to
put a blade of grass around the e-fence
or one of them would touch the e-fence
and hold a blade of grass in the other
hand and another kid would touch the blade of
grass or their bare hand and they would send the shock
to the other kid.

i'm not sure why i never corrected this behaviour? :crazy:



Mrs.K said:


> We have e-fences for the horses.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

I think using the term "shock" collar also puts a bad thought in many peoples minds. And the way they are frequently used in tv and movies for humor, such as in bruce almighty I think when he puts the ecollar on and the dog leaps into the air in pain. Ecollars used correctly are NOT used as punishment, they are used as negative reinforcement. You do not shock the dog to punish a behavior, but use it to proof behaviors and increase liklihood to behave and time taken. Such as calling the dog, applying the collar, and releasing when the dog responds to you. 

I was going to use a ecollar to proof Logans "leave it" when it came to the cats. He had a very high chasing drive, he would stop as soon as I called him but I thought maybe working with the ecollar I could get him to a point where he didn't even start the chase. I did a lot of research, but opted not to try it since there weren't any local ecollar trainers. 

I originally thought prong collars were abusive, until I worked with a trainer and understood their purpose. I use a prong collar on my service dog. Is it needed? Probably not. But the act of putting on her collar and harness puts her immediately into work mode. Because of being disabled, I feel more comfortable with her having the prong in case of an emergency. It allows me to remain calm and confident. Every animal and human are individuals and what is going to work for one team isn't necessarily going to work for another.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

selzer said:


> If I had a dog that chased livestock, I would not give it the opportunity to do so. That might mean crating or kenneling indoors.


I think that if you ask many dogs, mine included, to endure a few sessions of discomfort versus to spend the rest of their lives kenneled and on leashes they will choose the first.

And there are dogs, as SAR dogs, who you can't give them the choice. You need them to work unleashed and you'll need, sooner or later, to work near cattle.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Lin said:


> I think using the term "shock" collar also puts a bad thought in many peoples minds … I was going to use a ecollar to proof Logans "leave it" when it came to the cats. He had a very high chasing drive, he would stop as soon as I called him but I thought maybe working with the ecollar I could get him to a point where he didn't even start the chase. I did a lot of research, but opted not to try it since there weren't any local ecollar trainers …I originally thought prong collars were abusive, until I worked with a trainer and understood their purpose.


Often people use the term _"shock collar"_ just for that purpose. It's an emotional club. 

I'd suggest that to stop your dog's crittering you take a look HERE. Lots of people with no training experience of any kind, much less with an Ecollar have used it to their complete satisfaction. 

I'm always interested in the opinions of people who have made the switch from _"I think they're abusive."_ to _"I'm a user."_ Can you tell us why you initially felt that they were abusive, what changed your mind and what the trainer did to push you over the edge into _"user?"_


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

Logan passed away in November, so chasing of cats is no longer a problem.

I can't remember specifically why I thought prong collars were abusive, I think just having heard it plus they do look scary if you aren't familiar with how it works. The trainer that taught me how to use it explained its purpose and I even tried the links on myself and saw that it did not hurt. Watching the change in my dog from trying to choke herself with excitement to calmly walking beside me is what sold me on it. I think behaving on a prong, is much more humane than a dog choking itself in a flat collar! Also being disabled I don't have a lot of strength and can get hurt very easily. Once in a flat collar Tessa went from a sit to 60 mph completely pulling me off my feet and dragging me through the grass about 6 feet before realizing what she had done and stopping. We were at the park and I was having a conversation with a friend when she decided she just couldn't stand it any longer, and REALLY wanted to go say hi to a dog across the park!


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## WISLADY (Apr 9, 2007)

IMHO, the e collar is just another tool that can be used in training. I have used prong collars and e collars. I went to a trainer who teaches remote training, and had several sessions to practice the proper use of the e collar. I use the e collar when I have my dog off lead for exercise.

I don't think the e collar is harmful (with proper use), and it is to the TENS unit I have used for myself. The stimulation can be felt, but I wouldn't say it is painful.


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## crs996 (Sep 19, 2001)

Catu said:


> I think that if you ask many dogs, mine included, to endure a few sessions of discomfort versus to spend the rest of their lives kenneled and on leashes they will choose the first.
> 
> And there are dogs, as SAR dogs, who you can't give them the choice. You need them to work unleashed and you'll need, sooner or later, to work near cattle.


Exactly!! All the e-collar did was stop them from "checking out" and getting wild at a great distance. I lived on 10 acres at the time, with 3 fully fenced.

Selzer, are you _*seriously*_ saying that that instead of allowing my dogs to enjoy the daily freedom to just be dogs and play on 3 otherwise secure acres I should have crated or kenneled them, because of one easily correctable issue??? Which is more cruel in that scenario?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Yes, I guess I am saying that dogs should not enjoy freedom if they cannot be properly contained because they will go through or over a fence to chase cats or cattle. 

I have used a cattle fence along the inside of my fence to keep my dogs from molesting the fence. But the fence DOES keep other critters out, and my dogs will run to the wire, look for it so they KNOW how far they can go, and then go that far. They do not ever try to go beyond that wire, they respect it because they do not like being zapped. 

I do not feel that is cruel because it is visible. The dog knows to stay away from it. And it is specifically safe for cattle and dogs. I have zapped myself with it, and do not like it either. But the dogs can see it and keep away. To me that makes a lot of difference. They cannot keep away from their collar. 

Out here chasing cattle will get you killed, simple. Better the dog be crated or kenneled than dead. There is nothing inhumane about a properly built kennel. Considerable crate time is another story. But I will take that over the dog running free to be smooshed in the road or shot by a neighbor.


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## JOSHUA SAMPSON (Feb 21, 2010)

What is worse 

1. a stubborn dog who has high drive and focus and chases anything and roams and sniffs where they want to go. even though on leash (30') they have been thoroughly trained to recall and do everything correctly but they get hit on the road because they dont understand that that van cannot dance around them like a cow or deer could. is permenantly disabled or gruesomely and painfully killed!

2. The same dog who when he runs to the road is "corrected" utilizing the latest in e-collar technology to correct the bahavior and force the dog to pay attention while off leash. consequently he learns that if he does not mind and pay attention to commands he will recieve a correction wether he is on leash or not. and now not only does not go to the road to get killed by oncoming cars but also sits, lay's, recall's and all other commands while off leash. Makes for a well mannered dog who does as they're told in a dangerous human world.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If I have a dog like you mentioned, I will not give it the opportunity. You can certainly manage a dog without zapping it, but it means not letting it get to the road. 

There is nothing that anyone can tell me to make me believe that shock collars or e-collars if you like, are perfectly ok. But, as I already said, I would not try to have them banned which is the point of this thread, not to make converts to the e-collar camp. 

We can go round and round all day about training without gadgets, training with praise and treats vs. training with corrective collars. And and the end of the day I will STILL think that prongs, haltis, and e-collars are unnecessary. So maybe we should stick to the topic.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

do you realize that an e-collar has less of a zap than the wire you ran? they would learn exactly the same thing - where the boundary is.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am not sure that is the case, this little job is a solar powered unit that does not have much oomph. But it is different because they can see it and avoid it. They may be able to avoid something because of a collar, but the collar itself is on them and zapping them. I don't like it. 

But as I said, there is no converting me on this. But I am not asking for them to be banned. I do not understand why people think that if you are not in favor of them, you are wrong and must be converted.


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## crs996 (Sep 19, 2001)

selzer said:


> They do not ever try to go beyond that wire, they respect it because they do not like being zapped.
> 
> I do not feel that is cruel because it is visible. The dog knows to stay away from it.


Ha! This is the ultimate hypocrisy, a zap is a zap. Many dogs also know when the collar is on, no different than "seeing" a fence. You must feel it's a pretty evil tool to use for _one afternoon_ to justify kenneling a dog for it's lifetime! 

P.S. I have seen these "mild" little solar fences kill birds and squirrels.



selzer said:


> But as I said, there is no converting me on this. But I am not asking for them to be banned. I do not understand why people think that if you are not in favor of them, you are wrong and must be converted.


I'm not trying to convert anyone, I don't really care how others train, I only care when I see more ignorant legislation coming down the pike inspired by ignorant people like this Facebook nonsense. I think it just gets tiresome how those who have such visceral hate for these tools are so unbalanced about them, using such words as "violent", "frying", "torture" etc, espousing the moral high ground while hesitantly & condescendingly accepting the fact that there are still portions of the unwashed masses who use such "primitive" training tools.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

The zap from a live wire fence and the stim from a collar, at least the levels I have used on myself, are not comparable. A carpet shock is far more painful. The low levels of stim I use on my dogs are either so low that my body doesn't even register them, or they feel almost more like vibration. I was testing an e-collar's levels on my left thumb and the stim almost felt like it was helping my arthritis so I looked into TENS units. I would never, ever use a live wire fence (and they are illegal where I live).


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

selzer said:


> Yes, I guess I am saying that dogs should not enjoy freedom if they cannot be properly contained because they will go through or over a fence to chase cats or cattle.


 
Conveniently overlooking the fact that such dogs can easily be controlled and trained with an Ecollar. 




selzer said:


> *I do not feel that is cruel because it is visible.bbb The dog knows to stay away from it. And it is specifically safe for cattle and dogs. I have zapped myself with it, and do not like it either. But the dogs can see it and keep away. To me that makes a lot of difference.  They cannot keep away from their collar.  [Emphasis added] *


*

Any dog that's been properly trained with an Ecollar knows that he can avoid FOREVER a stim. All that's necessary is that he obeys commands he's given. Yours is just an excuse that allows you to rationalize your use a tool that gives a shock that's well over half a million times more powerful than one from an Ecollar. 




selzer said:



Out here chasing cattle will get you killed, simple. Better the dog be crated or kenneled than dead.

Click to expand...

 
Better than crating or kenneling is that he be trained. 




selzer said:



There is nothing inhumane about a properly built kennel.

Click to expand...

 
But there is a LOT of inhumanity in never allowing a dog to run free because your methods are incapable of controlling him. 




selzer said:



Considerable crate time is another story. But I will take that over the dog running free to be smooshed in the road or shot by a neighbor.

Click to expand...

 
Or you could just train him. *


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

At work today we were talking about how scary it is when ignorant people ban together for a cause..then this FB link 

Personally I don't think I'd ever use an ecollar (so far I also do not have a need for one) but I would never ban the use of them. I really don't feel like ticketing people for having one or checking for efences on patrols...sounds like a complete waste of tax money to me.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

selzer said:


> If I have a dog like you mentioned, I will not give it the opportunity. You can certainly manage a dog without zapping it, but it means not letting it get to the road.


 
And since management depends on a human, it will always break down. FAR better to train the dog. Of course, in this case, your methods are ineffective and so you make excuses and argue against Ecollars. 




selzer said:


> There is nothing that anyone can tell me to make me believe that shock collars or e-collars if you like, are perfectly ok. But, as I already said, I would not try to have them banned which is the point of this thread, not to make converts to the e-collar camp.


 
We know from this conversation that your mind is made up and you don't want to be confused with facts or reasoning. You prefer not to learn anything new that might change your mind. Nothing's changed here.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Dainerra said:


> do you realize that an e-collar has less of a zap than the wire you ran? they would learn exactly the same thing - where the boundary is.





selzer said:


> I am not sure that is the case, this little job is a solar powered unit that does not have much oomph.


Yet ANOTHER rationalization. The solar cells power the batteries, the exact same batteries that are used in other units. Some are powered by AC power. They have a transformer that reduces the current to the wires. ALL charged fences give very similar power shocks that are over half a million times more powerful than those that come from an Ecollar. 




selzer said:


> But it is different because they can see it and avoid it.


ANOTHER rationalization. It's not different. as I've already pointed out. You've convinced yourself that it is so that you can sleep easy. 




selzer said:


> They may be able to avoid something because of a collar, but the collar itself is on them and zapping them. I don't like it.


The collar isn't _"zapping them."_ Their failure to comply with a command is. But if they obey, it doesn’t happen. Conveniently you ignore this vital fact. 




selzer said:


> But as I said, there is no converting me on this.


I doubt that anyone is trying to convert you. I'm certainly not. Rather I'm pointing out the obvious (to everyone but you) logical flaws in your argument.


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## RSpencer (Feb 11, 2010)

we've used them for years training our labs and bird dogs, used the right way it is no different than a whistle. ecollars are for getting attention, not for punishment and as many have already stated education is the key, and by education i mean you fullly charge the unit and hold it in your hand and see how much is takes to get your own attention, i have personally done this cause i am the type tht will never do anything to my dogs that i wouldnt do to myself. ecollars are very useful tools and yes if it is used incorrectly it will damage a dog, but a person has to knw the limits. People tht own them should seriously try the differnt levels on themselves and see that it is low voltage and it gives more of a tingle then a shock, and if you cann't test it on yourself then you have no right to put it on your dog...

jus my 2cents....


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## gmcenroe (Oct 23, 2007)

*I don't support this ban on e-collars*

I don't think e-collars should be banned. If the user is educated on proper use, these can be effective training tools. If they inflict pain they are set too high and your dog will let you know. For recall training they are very effective when your dog is 50yards away and you can't use a long line. I don't think they should be used as a crutch and they can be used in conjunction with positive rewards. I only use an e-collar when I am too far from my dog to make a leash correction, and I tried it out on myself before I used it on my dog.


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## ozzymama (Jan 17, 2005)

I think you will have groups and organizations against everything. E-collars is no different, of course there will be persons for and against them. At the end of the day it is a personal preference. I have never used one and to be honest would prefer never to have to, of course I felt the same way about the prong, however without it I probably never would have gotten Ozzy's pulling under control and I would have one arm which drags the ground and one which doesn't.
It doesn't matter what method you use to train your dog, there will be people vehmently against it and those who stand up and applaud you. Both parties have no right to say anything about it. Cruelty, pain, abuse mean different things to different people. And varying degrees exist within each in regards to each word. I make my 14 year old collie go up and down 22 stairs each day several times a day and all she gets is a baby asprin for pain. Some people would think I was horribly cruel, would think a dog that age I must be ignoring her pain. Same dog walked over 5kms on Sunday with us....... Slept most of Monday  but did the walk no problem! 

The thing for me is I have never had a dog requiring a shock collar, prior to Ozzy I never had a dog requiring a prong, Sandi never wore a leash until we got Ozzy, she was off-lead trained and perfect at being off-lead. So I cannot say what I would or would not try to train my dog. I know what would be my last resort........ And if it were a choice I had to make I would hate for anyone to have anything to say about it. Owning dogs is hard, you have to be responsible for them 24/7, you have to watch them, their diet, their coat, their training, protect and nurture them. I mean with kids, ya just throw a piece of astroturf down, enough food for the night and out you go, dogs, now that is a difficult creature to raise. (Being slightly sarcastic, a non-breeder so I do make cracks like that to the chagrin of my breeder friends) The fact of the matter is it is an individual choice, not always one made lightly and no matter what you do, at some point in some way an individual or group of people is going to have something to say about something you do. That I believe is the crux. A group has formed on facebook, (insert nasty comment about facebook addicts here LOL) against something that is controversial in the dog world, but something that garners support from non-sporting, competitive, working dog owners, people who may not understand how or why a product is used, even those of us who do understand don't always like it.
I think the world just loves controversy.
Sorry for being long-winded, off now to start a blog about how I don't like picking up dog crap, anyone want to join my facebook page?


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## mjbgsd (Jun 29, 2004)

I've never thought of them as cruel, it's the people behind them that use it wrong.


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

Maybe someone should tell this FB group they should ban these abhorrent shock devices used on humans as well...

Contour Abs : Trial Offer : As Seen On TV

Electric Stimulation - Electrotherapy Equipment

TENS Unit, TENS Units, Muscle Stimulator, Ultrasound Unit -TENS

It's technically the same thing...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

All of my dogs are well trained without any type of correction collar. I can take them to parks and run them off-lead. Their recall is excellent. I have called them off of actively chasing rabbits, and they have complied, no problem. 

If I had a dog that could not be called off, prey drive too high to listen to my recall, I would not give them the opportunity to run after something in the road. That is simple. 

As for my solar powered fence that is connected to my back gate, I have been zapped by it numerous times. The dogs stay away from it. But it is not there for when I am with them. It is there in the event that I did not latch a kennel gate properly and my dog is now in the yard. They stay away from my fences and my gates. It is a last defence agaist the possibilty that one of my dogs might get out and running around loose in my neighborhood can easily get a dog killed by farmers, hunters, and cars in the roadway. It has nothing whatsoever to do with training the dog. It has to do with containing the dog when you are not home to supervise. 

An e-fence or a cattle fence is not how I am containing my dogs, they are contained in kennels. Only if they got out of a kennel would they ever be in my fenced area. This is fenced around with visible fencing that keep out coyotes and raccoons. The weak point is the gate. And that is where I have the added solar wire. 

I am an electrical engineer and know about Alternating Current and Direct Current, I have been zapped with both times more times than I want to think about. And I know why and how each is dangerous. I may just have a little more understanding of this than the knowledgeable Lou Castle. There have probably been more deaths due to stun guns run from batteries, than from electric fences, but whatever. 

Perhaps the Knowledgeable Lou is not trying to convert, and not trying to annoy, but I think he should stop suggesting that MY dogs are not trained, because MY dogs ARE trained, and have been trained without the use of his nasty little gadgets.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I do not view e-collars as containment devices and am not comfortable with e-fences or any sort of live wire. I think that is a common misconception, that people only use them because they have to "resort" to them and that they are only used for containment or for recall. I own and use an e-collar and do not use it for containment or recall, nor is it something I "resort" to using. I use whatever tool I feel is most appropriate given the dog or the skill. I don't try food and then switch to a prong and then an e-collar if things don't work out. If the tool I choose is not working, then I'm doing something wrong. It has nothing to do with the tool. When I use the e-collar, I use it first because that's the tool that makes sense, not because I've tried other tools and failed. Incidentally, I've never used or tried using an e-collar on my highest energy, highest drive, Schutzhund dog. It's never been the right tool for what we've intended to accomplished.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

selzer said:


> All of my dogs are well trained without any type of correction collar. I can take them to parks and run them off-lead. Their recall is excellent. I have called them off of actively chasing rabbits, and they have complied, no problem.


Some reason you feel the need to tell us this? I don't see how it has anything to do with the topic under discussion. 




selzer said:


> If I had a dog that could not be called off, prey drive too high to listen to my recall, I would not give them the opportunity to run after something in the road. That is simple.


So in other words you'd manage them. As any reasonable person knows since management depends on humans to do things; it always will break down. NO ONE on the planet always does everything perfectly. And so one day you, or someone else. will leave a gate open. You, or someone else, will forget to securely lock or close it. You or someone else will not put a collar on correctly and a dog will pull out of it. A leash will break. The dog will pull it out of your hand. If you deny these things can happen, you'll be lying. If they haven't happened yet, it's just a matter of time. 

And when it does you dogs (perhaps not the ones you own at this moment) will be off to do as they please. If your methods are so ineffective that the dogs have not successfully be trained not to chase they will, if they come across the right situation. 




selzer said:


> As for my solar powered fence that is connected to my back gate, I have been zapped by it numerous times. The dogs stay away from it. But it is not there for when I am with them. It is there in the event that I did not latch a kennel gate properly and my dog is now in the yard. They stay away from my fences and my gates. It is a last defence agaist the possibilty that one of my dogs might get out and running around loose in my neighborhood can easily get a dog killed by farmers, hunters, and cars in the roadway. It has nothing whatsoever to do with training the dog. It has to do with containing the dog when you are not home to supervise.


You've simply made the decision that your use of a charged fence is OK but using an Ecollar is not. The fact remains that your fence puts out over a half million times more power than an Ecollar used as I advocate. It's a hypocritical view at best. 




selzer said:


> An e-fence or a cattle fence is not how I am containing my dogs, they are contained in kennels. *Only if they got out of a kennel would they ever be in my fenced area. *[Emphasis added]


And so we can see that* "if they got out of a kennel"* they'd be exposed to the charged fence. It's pretty funny that you're in denial about this obvious fact! The fact that you use it only as a last defense does not change the fact that *you do, in fact, use it. *So that you can feel good about yourself, you use the excuse that it's _"only"_ a "last resort containment." The obvious fact is that it's still there and it's still in use. Use whatever rationalization makes you feel good but you should simply admit that you're using a charged fence that puts out LOTS more power than an Ecollar used as I advocate, instead of hiding behind a rationalization. 




selzer said:


> I am an electrical engineer and know about Alternating Current and Direct Current, I have been zapped with both times more times than I want to think about. And I know why and how each is dangerous. I may just have a little more understanding of this than the knowledgeable Lou Castle.


Perhaps and perhaps not. But AGAIN this has nothing to do with the subject of discussion. It's already been shown that you're living in denial of the reality that you use a charged fence, something that puts out FAR MORE power than an Ecollar. Somehow you think that's OK but using an Ecollar is not. Can you say _"double standard?"_ 




selzer said:


> There have probably been more deaths due to stun guns run from batteries, than from electric fences, but whatever.


Please provide support for this statement. Without it, it's just another worthless opinion. 

In any case, it's an apples and oranges comparison. A stun gun is meant to incapacitate a person by _"short circuiting" _the electrical pulses that control his muscles and a charged fence is meant to cause pain to whoever or whatever touches it. Two COMPLETELY different ends. AGAIN your statement has nothing to do with the topic under discussion. Just another diversion! lol. 

And let's not forget that your fence charger runs from batteries. The solar cells don't provide direct power to the fence, all they do is keep the batteries charged so you don't have to plug it into the mains. 




selzer said:


> Perhaps the Knowledgeable Lou


Wondering how you'd feel if I was to start calling you _"the ignorant selzer?"_ Your rudeness and sarcasm are obvious and you always go this way in these discussion because you're unable and/or unwilling to stay professional and polite. But it's exactly what I'd expect from someone who spends so much of their time in denial and hypocrisy. 




selzer said:


> is not trying to convert


No _"perhaps"_ about it. I've said as much quite clearly. AGAIN, I'm just pointing out your logical fallacies. There are lots of them. 




selzer said:


> and not trying to annoy,


I pretty much don't care whether you're annoyed or not. As long as you live in a fairy land and try to influence others I'll point out where you're wrong. 




selzer said:


> but I think he should stop suggesting that MY dogs are not trained, because MY dogs ARE trained


Please point out where I've said that your dogs are not trained. This is commonly known as a Strawman Argument. You attribute to your opponent, a position that he's NEVER taken and then condemn him for it. ANOTHER of your logical fallacies! 




selzer said:


> and have been trained without the use of his nasty little gadgets.


Only a rude person with an agenda would call an Ecollar a _"nasty little gadget." _


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

You win Lou, I am a close-minded ignorant hypocrit who will not use an e-collar or suggest their use to anyone else.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

It appears to me that an e-collar, which I have never used personally but have seen used by a close friend to get a reliable recall on her headstrong male GSD, can be a very useful training tool when used properly.

if anyone decides not to use it, fine for them. If anyone chooses to use it, then they should learn from an expert experienced in it's use.

A tool is simply a tool!


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

selzer said:


> You win Lou, I am a close-minded ignorant hypocrit who will not use an e-collar or suggest their use to anyone else.


_"Closed minded?"_ – Can you show us where you've changed your mind or learned anything new in this discussion. 

_"Ignorant?"_ – I asked a very simple question, _"your dog is not obeying your command to recall and he's running towards a busy street. What do you do?"_ You _pretended _to answer but really did not. When I rephrased the question, you avoided it. 

You made the claim that _"dogs seem to be hypersensitive to electricity."_ When asked for support for that statement, you did not supply any. 

You made the claim that someone had said that an Ecollar _"is the only humane way to train."_ I asked for a link to such a statement (I don't believe that anyone has said this) and you did not supply it. 

You want to dumb down any breed of dog that can't be trained with your methods. Ignoring the fact that it's your methods that are at fault, rather than the dog. 

You think that the answer to some chasing issues is management and we all know that management will always break down, putting the dog at risk. 

You think that there is pressure on you to _"convert"_ to using an Ecollar. 

You pretend (in spite of claiming to be an _"electrical engineer"_) that because your charged fence uses solar power to keep its batteries charged that it somehow has less power than a charged fence that uses AC power to keep its batteries charged. 

You think that because YOUR dogs are trained that no one else should use an Ecollar. 

You compare a stun gun to a charged fence. 

You claim that I've said that your dogs are not trained, but when challenged, can not provide ANY instance of me saying it. 

_"Hypocrite?"_ – You decry Ecollars but use a charged fence that is more than half–a–million–times more powerful. 

I've not called you any of these names. I have said that you show these symptoms. But if the shoes fit …


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

codmaster said:


> A tool is simply a tool!


Waaaaay too much logic and reason here. 





 Here's a video of a dog being trained with an Ecollar Anyone can see how badly the dog is being abused and how INHUMANE the training is.


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## Shandril2 (Nov 26, 2003)

Castlemaid said:


> Education is the key - not outright banning. Shock collars have their place and their uses.
> 
> I don't think a tool I have been using humanly (set so low it does NOT cause pain) should be taken away because other people out there are idiots and don't understand how to train a dog.


:thumbup:


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

LouCastle said:


> You made the claim that someone had said that an Ecollar _"is the only humane way to train."_ I asked for a link to such a statement (I don't believe that anyone has said this) and you did not supply it.


I think selzer was refering to this post



Mrs.K said:


> You do realize that using a shock collar is the most humanly thing you can do, IF you use it properly and the right way?


because that's how I understood it as well.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Earlier Mrs.K wrote,


> You do realize that using a shock collar is *the most *humanly thing you can do, IF you use it properly and the right way? [Emphasis added]


 




Syaoransbear said:


> I think selzer was refering to this post because that's how I understood it as well.


You may be right. But there's an important difference between the two statements. Selzer's statement was this


> Someone suggeste it is *the only *humane way to train, and I disagree completely.


There's a significant difference between *"the most" *and *"the only." *

But selzer would probably disagree either way. LOL.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Syaoransbear, thank you for finding the statement for my good buddy Lou. 

Every group must have someone who will argue until they are blue about semantics. Life is too short.

"For what do we live, but to make sport for the neighbors and to laugh at them in our turn." Jane Austen


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

selzer said:


> Syaoransbear, thank you for finding the statement for my good buddy Lou. Every group must have someone who will argue until they are blue about semantics. Life is too short.


Anyone who says that there's no difference between _"the *MOST *humane" method_ and _"the *ONLY *humane" method _is either *** removed by Admin******* trying to hide the truth, or some combination of these. I leave the readers to decide which is going on here.


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## Kayla's Dad (Jul 2, 2007)

Time to give it a rest, Lou. Selzer took the higher road and tried to disengage. Why not try to do the same. The value of what you contribute to e-collar training and information, at least on the forum here, really gets so lost and diminished when you go on these continued attacks like this, it's ridiculous. Maybe in your world, you're enlightening folks in this manner but to the reader, it just looks like you're going on (another) back and forth attack. JMHO.


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