# Do I want to do this or not?



## Dooney's Mom (May 10, 2011)

I am REALLY new to Schutzhund- never heard of it until I got Dooney from the breeder. I wanted to get a better handle on Dooney and her obedience-so I brought her to the trainer that my breeder uses for OB and Shutzhund (same one that TrickyShepherd just went to). 

I went with the purpose of JUST doing OB but 2 of Dooney's littermate brothers and her older brother were staying for bitework, so I hung around for the bitework. When the decoy got into his gear and cracked the whip Dooney went NUTS- she wanted him. Needless to say I had the trainer evaluate her for bitework and needless to say she passed and is cleared to do it IF i am interested. So here is the question.. Do I want to do this?

Let me say- PLEASE nobody take offense to anything I say, I mean no harm or offense- I WOULD love to do this with her, but I need some education first.

I want to be able to have Dooney out around other people and be a (for lack of a better word here) "normal" dog. So many of the Schutzhund dogs I am around (including those at training) aren't out hanging out with their owners (even when NOT working on bitework) I don't want to turn her into a dog that can't be around other people, or that needs to be crated constantly if others are around, to feel like I can't "trust" her. I want to still be able to have my "pet" I guess as well as a "working" dog. Am I making any sense here? Is this even possible? Does she have to be one or the other, or can she both? Can I still trust her to be around kids? Especially my 4 year old nephew that she is already protective of. I know ALOT of this depends on the dog, training, etc and I am going to talk to the trainer some more this weekend. But I really wanted to get some helpful input from all of you as well. Thank you in advance!


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

I've actually never met a SchH dog that was truly aggressive. Of course it is possible for this to happen but I've never seen one myself. I think the biggest question is if you and Dooney will enjoy the sport or not.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

My Schutzhund dogs hang around people all the time. In fact I had one at work today. He visited a bunch of people in my office, went for a walk on the college campus where I work, let some strangers pet him and play tug, and then after work we went to Schutzhund training and did protection. Same dog ran around with my friends and their dog (with tons of people nearby since we train at a baseball field and there were games going on). This past weekend both my dogs were in a flyball tournament where they were around other people and dogs all weekend. Nikon got a dog massage from a complete stranger. At the last tournament he decided to go to bed with my friend!

Dogs need to be "put up" safely when they are not working. They don't hang out with their owners or other people on a serious training day unless its their turn to work. This has nothing to do with the dog, but the training.


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## Dooney's Mom (May 10, 2011)

Liesje said:


> My Schutzhund dogs hang around people all the time. In fact I had one at work today. He visited a bunch of people in my office, went for a walk on the college campus where I work, let some strangers pet him and play tug, and then after work we went to Schutzhund training and did protection. Same dog ran around with my friends and their dog (with tons of people nearby since we train at a baseball field and there were games going on). This past weekend both my dogs were in a flyball tournament where they were around other people and dogs all weekend. Nikon got a dog massage from a complete stranger. At the last tournament he decided to go to bed with my friend!
> 
> Dogs need to be "put up" safely when they are not working. They don't hang out with their owners or other people on a serious training day unless its their turn to work. This has nothing to do with the dog, but the training.


Thank you, that makes me feel MUCH better about training her. SHE definately enjoys it and I think I would if I wasn't worried. Thanks for the response- keep them coming!


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

You need to ask your self if you are interested enough to commit the time and effort that it takes to be successful in Schutzhund. Your dog will most likely be safer and more in control when trained but it takes time and effort to get there.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Does this make you feel better? My big bad Schutzhund dogs!









That's not me OR my Corgi...Schutzhund dogs can make people and dog friends too!


















In multiple parades, with LOTS of people/kids


















Not my kids (I don't have kids)









Second grade class obedience demo


















That's not me and the other three dogs are not mine


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

Liesje- you have GORGEOUS babies!


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

My girl and I are very active in schutzhund and other protection sports. I also take her everywhere I go. She is my velcro dog. When I allow it she will play with every dog in sight. She also loves people. Like others have said, during training it is safer and better for the dog to be crated. Plus it gives the dog time to reflect on what it was just doing.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

*Liesje- *Awesome! I love your pics.


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## Dooney's Mom (May 10, 2011)

Liesje- Wow--- awesome dogs and YES it makes me feel TONS better.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Honestly, I think a lot of Schutzhund people think their dogs are way more [email protected]$$ than they really are. Most times these people just don't prioritize bringing their dogs in public. Schutzhund can be very demanding and time consuming so not many people get seriously involved in Schutzhund AND a ton of other stuff, but I do know plenty of people that train in Schutzhund for fun with their pet/house dogs. Other SchH people might have no interest in bringing their dogs to family events, walking in parades, playing with kids, etc and that's just fine. My dogs do all of the above because that's just my lifestyle. I don't have a kennel where I just toss my dogs in so I can do what I want 90% of the time as if I didn't have dogs. I'd still have the same dogs I have now even if we couldn't do Schutzhund at all. They are my pets and my companions and I enjoying having them with me, and plenty of other people enjoy them too. I don't really concern myself with other people and their dogs. I do what I want to with my dogs


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the answer is IF your dog starts out right he will end up right. 
So think about your dog . Strong points and temperamental weak points. The stable dog will be more or less the same --- the dog which is reactive or fearful will now have a reason to react and permission to aggress when frightened.

I don't know why schutzhund clubs go so quickly to bite work . Even as a club , with liability issues I would want to super test the dog and the owners first . Many clubs have you sign waivers making you solely responsible for your dogs conduct should there be any issues involving bites etc. 
Do the obedience, BH , first , do tracking first . Bite work last.

Lots of dogs fire up quickly when stimulated . Dogs working in prey and stimulated by prey -- no indication that they will hold steady with pressure or threat .

Lots of strong stable dogs take a lot of stimulation to get them to spark -- but then they are serious and mean it.

Liesje's dogs look to be wonderful dogs , which they are because that is what they are to their core - not because of schutzhund. (Nice dogs - look to be great breed ambassadors which we really need now!)

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

FWIW, my young dog (the sable one), who will do much better at SchH than the black and red dog Nikon, is actually *too* friendly for my personal tastes, lol. But, knowing that we are close to starting a family, I wanted to err on the side of a social, permissive type of dog even though normally I prefer a dog that's more aloof and discerning (but I already have that with Nikon).


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Dooney's Mom said:


> I want to be able to have Dooney out around other people and be a (for lack of a better word here) "normal" dog. So many of the Schutzhund dogs I am around (including those at training) aren't out hanging out with their owners (even when NOT working on bitework) I don't want to turn her into a dog that can't be around other people, or that needs to be crated constantly if others are around, to feel like I can't "trust" her.


Do you mean at the club or in daily life?

Because it is pretty normal to keep dogs crated in a Schutzhund training session, but it doesn't mean the can't be out around with the owners, it i more part of SchH culture and the fact that most of us prefer the dogs being concentrated when it is their turn to work and also to keep the owners concentrated on what is going on with the dog that is also working, to learn from others dogs and to be ready to help if needed. Personally I prefer that kind of training versus those where everyone is doing their business, hanging around with their dogs and just wanting for their turn to use the field. It doesn't mean that the same dogs can't hang with me when I take them with me to college and we spend full days studying in the yards surrounded by other people.

Now if you mean that they NEVER are allowed with other people, and since all the dogs you know are somewhat related... I'd guess someone is giving the owners some bad advice.


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## MilesNY (Aug 12, 2010)

Somebody just the other day came to club to watch after purchasing a puppy from our club president. Very nice lady, with her granddaughter I think... maybe 8 years old. Dante was up next in bite work and was in his harness and ready to go. Her little girl came up and asked if she could pet him. I said sure no problem but watch out he is a kisser!! So she did, she hugged him, got kisses, etc. Then we went in and did our bite work. Dante is not the prey only type of dog. He has a bit of an edge to him, but did his stuff and we walked out. The grandmother's face was a little shocked I think. I laughed and said, "aren't you happy you asked to pet him before you saw this!?" She laughed too, but it just goes to show, what happens on the field doesn't change the nature of the dog. Dante is very stable, my nephews play with him, kids run up to his face at parks and he just licks them. He went to Easter dinner with us at family's house. I have walked him around NYC in crowds. If the dog is stable to begin with, training will just help you fill your dogs potential, not change his nature.


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## MilesNY (Aug 12, 2010)

Nothing is cuter than this little guy saying "payatz Dantee, PAYATZ!!!" before throwing his ball for him. Here they are almost three and Dante is 9 months. Liam still has the best control over Dante above his older brother and my other nephews.









This was taken this past Christmas, Rielly is six here and Dante is 20 months. They love to play tug on the hard wood and let Dante drag them around... Clearly Dante is about twice his wieght...


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

All of our dogs participate or have participated in Schutzhund. They are all social with people *AND* other dogs. All the dogs in our club are family dogs and can be out and about with the other club dogs before and after practice (off leash hanging out while we clean up, chat about practice, whatever). 
Now, having said that, our club is a bit different than many since our club meets at a private dog park and the dogs in the club must not cause issues within the facility.
You also have to look at the club you are hoping to train with. The people and their dogs are the best barometer of the club's philosophy on this subject. There are clubs that insist that all the dogs be crated 24/7 and not be allowed to socialize at all or it will "ruin" the dog. So would I join that club, no, but the people in that club are fine with it and that is their choice.(this is a club out of state, the guy who moved here from there told us this was his old club's SOP)
If the training director or someone in that club tells you to do things (like isolate the dog from all people) and you are uncomfortable or unsure about it then talk it out. For example, we have a new guy who has a very distractible young dog. We have told him to limit the dog's social time before practice since it seemed to make him even worse. The owner has arrive a bit early and leave the dog in the crate until his turn and we make him go almost last at this point. It has made the dog more excited to get out and work and as he matures it probably won't have to always be this way. The owner is fine with this and it is not detrimental to the dog's overall psyche, so yay. 
Whatever training plan gets developed for your dog, just remember you are your dog's partner and you should be clear and comfortable with the methods and their reasons.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Dooney's Mom said:


> I want to still be able to have my "pet" I guess as well as a "working" dog. Am I making any sense here? Is this even possible? Does she have to be one or the other, or can she both? Can I still trust her to be around kids?


Pictures are worth a thousand words.......

































A good GSD can do it all...Bite work, Therapy work, Dress-up.


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## Dooney's Mom (May 10, 2011)

Thank everyone so much for the input. The crating issue is just a Schutzhund thing during the training so I get it now and I see why it is done, so I am more understanding of it now. We went again today and did just some OB work, and she was pretty good, we'll get there. The trainer says she has alot of potential. I want to get her a tug and get her used to playing with that and see if I can build up a bit of a drivewnith her (for the tug and not human flesh) 

treats helped tremendously with getting that focus I have been looking for. I will let you know how it goes next time we do agitation/bite work.

Again thank you all so much, your pictures and stories have def put me at ease.


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

Dooney's Mom said:


> Thank everyone so much for the input. The crating issue is just a Schutzhund thing during the training so I get it now and I see why it is done, so I am more understanding of it now. We went again today and did just some OB work, and she was pretty good, we'll get there. The trainer says she has alot of potential. I want to get her a tug and get her used to playing with that and see if I can build up a bit of a drivewnith her (for the tug and not human flesh)
> 
> treats helped tremendously with getting that focus I have been looking for. I will let you know how it goes next time we do agitation/bite work.
> 
> Again thank you all so much, your pictures and stories have def put me at ease.


She has a lot of potential for sure! She looked nice during OB. Though, I could only see in small side glances since they had Duke and I out at the same time... next time hopefully I can actually watch you two! I am sure, one the time comes, she will also be awesome at bite work!


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## >DRIVEN< (Apr 2, 2012)

Great post!



W.Oliver said:


> Pictures are worth a thousand words.......
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

I agree that a good dog should be able to do it all! 

Here are my two at home:

Canada Day Parade - we are in the middle, I am wearing a white hat and my son is sitting on Ironhide.










My female on a bike ride to the park!



















And at work:

































 
Gladiator at 10 1/2 months!


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Wow.. I really love this thread. You guys are showing fantastic examples of the breed!

I agree, the German Shepherd dog should be able to do it all.. Bite the bad guy, then go home and snuggle in bed with the kids.


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## Dooney's Mom (May 10, 2011)

Tug and Long line ordered!!! Any inputs of do's and don'ts on what to do and not do to get her drive up more and focused on the tug? I got a 12 inch 2 handled tug. I know to always let her win and to make a big deal when she gets it- what else??


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Dooney's Mom said:


> .....Any inputs of do's and don'ts on what to do and not do to get her drive up more and focused on the tug? I got a 12 inch 2 handled tug......


Work with your training director on engagement and learning how to constructively play with your dog.

Most important advice I can give is be aware of your fingers with respect to the two handled tugs....my two dogs have broken three of my fingers, each on diffent occassions, over the past 18 months. Clearly I cannot learn from my mistakes. 

Darwin might suggest I am not fit to train dogs!!!!:wild:


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Wayne, and I was wondering why you weren't posting much lately - I guess typing with broken fingers can get a bit tricky!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I can't access my pics right now, but Gryffon is another Schutzhund dog that is balanced, friendly and safe. World level trainers/competitors that have seen him in training love him, "He is a dog with heart" when it comes to protection training.

Yet he is just fine in everyday situations. I have no worries at all in having him out in public, around other dogs, among little kids.

I bring him in to work when I go in after-hours, he chills in my office and eats up the attention other people give him. He snuggles with the cats.

I walk into a new environment like a Rally-O trial, and he doesn't care about the people and the other dogs, he is ready to focus and work.

As others have said, a solid dog is a solid dog, bite-training teaches him self-control that carries over into everyday situations. Think of it as martial arts training: Someone with a black belt in Karate doesn't go around knocking strangers to the ground willy-nilly just because he can. On the contrary, the training this person went through probably gave them more mental clarity, increased their self-confidence, and developed their mental self-discipline. Protection training often has the same effect on dogs, as long as the dog is stable to start with.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

The one thing that you may want to think about is liability. It sucks, but in this day and age of hair-trigger litigation, bite training a dog puts you in a position of liability. In the eyes of the law, you have a dog that is trained to bite people.

This should never make a difference in day-to-day life, if your dog is stable and well trained. But if she should ever break someone's skin with a tooth--be it accidental, or even in defending you from a would-be mugger--that person can sue you, and if it comes to light that you've done bitework, you are sunk.  It's an awful state of affairs, but it's something you need to be aware of.


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## Dooney's Mom (May 10, 2011)

Freestep said:


> The one thing that you may want to think about is liability. It sucks, but in this day and age of hair-trigger litigation, bite training a dog puts you in a position of liability. In the eyes of the law, you have a dog that is trained to bite people.
> 
> This should never make a difference in day-to-day life, if your dog is stable and well trained. But if she should ever break someone's skin with a tooth--be it accidental, or even in defending you from a would-be mugger--that person can sue you, and if it comes to light that you've done bitework, you are sunk.  It's an awful state of affairs, but it's something you need to be aware of.


Thanks- already thought of that- I have been in property insurance for 20+ years now. I checked with my company and once my house is done I will also get an umbrella policy. :thumbup:


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## Dooney's Mom (May 10, 2011)

W.Oliver said:


> Work with your training director on engagement and learning how to constructively play with your dog.
> 
> Most important advice I can give is be aware of your fingers with respect to the two handled tugs....my two dogs have broken three of my fingers, each on diffent occassions, over the past 18 months. Clearly I cannot learn from my mistakes.
> 
> Darwin might suggest I am not fit to train dogs!!!!:wild:


OUCH!!!!! will definately try to learn from your mistakes!


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## m1953 (May 7, 2012)

A lot of you all mentioned about taking your dog everywhere you go..I am waiting on my new pup who I will get next week and also would lover to take her with me as much as possable. My question is what to you do if you have to run into a store or something to pick a few things up..I thought about leaving her in the truck with the AC running but not sure how safe that would be..


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

m1953 said:


> A lot of you all mentioned about taking your dog everywhere you go..I am waiting on my new pup who I will get next week and also would lover to take her with me as much as possable. My question is what to you do if you have to run into a store or something to pick a few things up..I thought about leaving her in the truck with the AC running but not sure how safe that would be..


I have done in the truck with the a/c on. I have done in the truck with the windows down. I have a crate in the bed of my truck and 9 times out if 10 that's where she is. That is if I can't take her in the store with me.


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## Dooney's Mom (May 10, 2011)

so are you in Deland now or GA? 

If you are going to use a crate I would say go for it and leave the car running (be sure to have your spare key with you if are going to do this- so you can lock the car)I don't recommend leaving a young puppy uncrated in the car- too much stuff to chew on and too much trouble to get into! I usually don't take mine places that I can't bring dogs. But bring yours out often once she is old enough, socialzation is necessary- good luck!


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## m1953 (May 7, 2012)

Thanks very much. Will definitley have her crate with me especially during the puppy months


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