# Neuter early or not??



## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

Jake has been going to the vet at PetSmart for his basic puppy care while I found the right vet, well through the grapevine I was referred to a vet about 45 minutes from me, she has tons of experience with the breed. Yesterday I made an appointment for her to meet Jake and I and get her opinions on him and her philosophies. The vet at PetSmart says neuter at 6 months and the other vet said wait to a year, if not a tad longer if I can. I find this whole subject mesmerizing. Why is it so hard for there to be a better timeline then that? Six months to at least a year is quite the range. I have read countless posts and find I am chasing my own tail.....can everyone weigh in? Those of you who neutered EARLY and those who WAITED?
__________________
Renee'


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I just got Sinister neutered eactly 2 weeks ago he is 15 months old.

He is 27 1/2 at the shoulders and he weighed in at 77 pounds.


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## GSD MOM (Apr 21, 2010)

We neutered early. Ace got the snip at 6 months. Vet suggested and we took her advice. I think this is a black and white subject. Don't seem to find much gray...
MY BF has a problem with male dogs that go around marking every thing in site. Ace is 17 months and he still doesn't raise his leg. Not sure if the neuter did that or not....


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## unloader (Feb 16, 2010)

My breeder has in her contract for limited reg. to alter at 8-12 months for males. Everything I read indicates waiting at least a year if you can. 

Now, I still don't know how long to wait since one testicle never dropped. That is another topic I would guess.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I never had a problem with Sinister marking, I didn't have any aggression issues or behavioral issues with him either.


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

I read that it is best to wait until a dog is physically mature, around 2 years. I read that the removal of hormones before a dog is done growing can cause harm to it's bones and increase it's chances of getting bone cancer, esp larger breeds. I am going to wait to neuter my GSD pup until he is 2 years. Perhaps someone else has found some useful information? Google "dangers of neutering too young" and see if you get any good info. Overall, what I read stated that for males, waiting until physically mature or not neutering at all is safer in regards to percentages of cancers, disease, etc. than it would be to neuter. Do alot of reserach and make the decision that is right by you!

This article helped me make my decision: http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf good luck!


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## tkarsjens (Nov 30, 2009)

This is not, IMO, a topic about aggression or marking. Yes, if your dog is aggressive, neutering might be something to consider as part of the solution, but it's not a solution by itself. For what it's worth, my intact male at 8 years old still rarely lifts his leg (and he's been bred). My three year old neutered dog marks everything. If you talk to enough people you can find every permutation.

Early neutering is for me, a health issue. Now, first and foremost if you can't control your dog and keep him from breeding, then neuter as soon as you can. But if you can and are willing to guarantee a dog will never be bred accidently, I am a firm believer in waiting until at least two years old.

Here's why: Nature gave dogs hormones for more reasons than breeding. They are used to help a dog grow and mature the way he's supposed to. Dogs (especially males) neutered young do tend to grow taller and lankier than males allowed to grow naturally. I've seen it over and over, especially with males. I can pick them out usually. In addition to growing taller and thiner, this leads to increase risk of things like ACL and CCL tears. I know many people who have had soft tissue injuries on dogs neutered young. Of course it happens on intact dogs too, but I find there is an increased risk with early spay/neuter.

I will also add that the earlier you spay/neuter, the bigger an issue this is. If someone wants to neuter at a year (as opposed to the two years I prefer) I don't think that makes much of a difference. If someone neuters at 8 weeks (yes people do) as opposed to 2 years, the difference is much bigger.

The following article has probably been posted many times but it's one I find to be accurate in terms of what I observe: Canine Sports Productions: Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete

I should add that for my personal dogs, I have decided I will never neuter another male unless I have a medical reason to do so. What my dog went through when he was neutered was not worth it to me.

Tracie
www.atlaskennels.com


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## Wolfiesmom (Apr 10, 2010)

If you neuter before they are mature, there is a chance that he won't grow proportionately because the testosterone isn't being released. Have you ever seen a male GSD with a small head or feminine looking? It's because he was neutered too early. It also increses the risk of bone cancer and bone diseases if large breed dogs are neutered before maturity. I had a male GSD that was never neutered. He didn't wander, showed no marking behavior in the house, and was never aggressive. He lived until he was 12 years old. I don't plan on neutering Wolfie either.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

I have to make that decision myself. Lakota is 5 months now. I just recently met a vet, a young woman who believes in early spay/nueter, mainly for cancer issues. Lakota looks so tiny to me, compared to my big 125lb babies, I couldn't imagine getting her spayed now. Apache my male was just over a year & Kiya was about 20 months old. I am opting toward waiting till the 1 year mark. With all the info out ther I feel that you gather all the information you can then make what you feel is the best decission for you & your pet.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

What is her scientific basis for early neutering because of cancer? I have only been able to find studies possibly indicating just the opposite.

http://www.showdogsupersite.com/kenlclub/breedvet/neutr.html

I neutered a male with a retained testicle at 2 years old. The vet advised allowing him to reach maturity. 

Our current male to remain intact.


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## ZAYDA (Apr 22, 2010)

tkarsjens said:


> this is not, imo, a topic about aggression or marking. Yes, if your dog is aggressive, neutering might be something to consider as part of the solution, but it's not a solution by itself. For what it's worth, my intact male at 8 years old still rarely lifts his leg (and he's been bred). My three year old neutered dog marks everything. If you talk to enough people you can find every permutation.
> 
> Early neutering is for me, a health issue. Now, first and foremost if you can't control your dog and keep him from breeding, then neuter as soon as you can. But if you can and are willing to guarantee a dog will never be bred accidently, i am a firm believer in waiting until at least two years old.
> 
> ...


above is your answer spelled out perfectly.
Wait at least until 1 year closer to 2 if you can.


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

I think it's really all about you and how much male dog you can handle. I personally, have always ended up being the clear alpha and have had no problem waiting 12 to 18 months. If there are issues starting to occur with dominance, humping, marking, etc. and it's difficult for you to deal with, 6 months is probably right. You ultimately want a great dog that YOU can handle well. I like to let the full musculature and physique blossom, but I would never put that ahead of having a dog that I KNOW I can enjoy. I hope that helps.


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

ZAYDA said:


> above is your answer spelled out perfectly.
> Wait at least until 1 year closer to 2 if you can.


That's true under ideal conditions. Not so if the owner has control issues. IMO


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I say neuter at 1 1/2. Its right in between.lol.

It is really up to the owner and the dog.


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I say neuter at 1 1/2. Its right in between.lol.
> 
> It is really up to the owner and the dog.


Right on. She's been having some fairly frustrating issues with Jake already and it just might (maybe) be appropriate to do it earlier in this case. A sweet dog that is settled down can be a best choice for some people, even if it means early neutering.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Relayer said:


> Right on. She's been having some fairly frustrating issues with Jake already and it just might (maybe) be appropriate to do it earlier in this case. A sweet dog that is settled down can be a best choice for some people, even if it means early neutering.


Tanner was already neutered when we adopted him. He doesn't mark in the house, but he marks when go on walks. He is protective of our home and the kids across the street. We are thinking he was neutered around 1 1/2 to 2 years, because he looks fully matured. He just acts like a baby sometimes.lol


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

I have yet to neuter any of my dogs. So far no one marks in the house. Cade at 15 months still doesn't lift his leg. I've never had any problems with dominance and myself although I have seen dominant male-dominant male aggression develop especially when my female is in heat. 

I don't know...I think it's pretty easy to manage most behaviors that I would assosicate with neutering and neutering your dog certainly doesn't free you from concern about beahvior problems. Plenty of neutered dogs still mark, hump, dominate, because it's a function of their personality. You knwo all those puppy tests we do when your puppy is little?? Well those tests indicate personality. If you got a dominate, aggressive puppy...neutering won't change that. If you got a quiet laid back submissive puppy...leaving them intact really won't change that either. 

Also I don't really take much stock in vets who advocate spay neuter at 6 months...that's sort of the standard line for vets and you also need to consider that your Vet was at Banfield. Not necessarily knocking your vet, but I know people who have worked there and they are very tied by regulations. It is a business associated with a corporation and then have checklists for things that they are to recommend and do if at all possible. The vet I knew who worked there compared to being a 911 operator- you follow a flow chart. What's wrong? Flip to Page 12 and do #1-5, Did that work? No? Go to page 9. A vet who says, you know I would rather wait to have your money for the surgery when it's healthier for the dog...is more my kind of vet.

I agree that if I was going to neuter I would wait until min. 1 year...but I would prefer 2yrs. But I also agree that neutering really isn't about the dog. It's about you and what you can handle. If you are in over your head, taking hormones out of the equation can give you a little less to have to contend with. Many dogs are fixed early and live long healthy lives. So it's up to you.


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

JKlatsky said:


> But I also agree that neutering really isn't about the dog. It's about you and what you can handle. If you are in over your head, taking hormones out of the equation can give you a little less to have to contend with. Many dogs are fixed early and live long healthy lives. So it's up to you.


That part!


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## Ryder&SophieSue (Nov 25, 2008)

i know with my dachshunds when we decided to get out of breeding, my male and female that i had fixed were 5 years old and they did pretty good, valley gained alot of weight but she also like to eat, and river actually became more aggressive, but we later found out that he had started havin back trouble....
But with my shepherds, i had ryder neutered at 6 months (probaly should have waited) he had a retained testicle, but had it done anyway. With ace we actually had him done at like 4.5 months bcause he was humping everything in site. He was an awful humper...once we had him fixed he didn't do it again...With Sophie we are having her spayed this weekend while we are out of town, well she will be spayed monday...
I personally don't believe in the whole i want them to have a litter b4 we spay because its better for them....or the whole let them reach their full maturity.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

unloader said:


> My breeder has in her contract for limited reg. to alter at 8-12 months for males. Everything I read indicates waiting at least a year if you can.
> 
> Now, I still don't know how long to wait since one testicle never dropped. That is another topic I would guess.


My personal preference is not to neuter before a dog's 18 to 24 months old at the earliest. In fact, I think a vasectomy is the way to go.

As far as dogs with a retained testicle, I've been told you can wait up to 2 years before getting him neutered, but I would definitely have the retained testicle removed by 2 to avoid the chance of it becoming cancerous.


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

I want to thank everyone for weighing in on this controversial subject. I like the experienced GSD vet that I met with and she basically gave me all the answers I wanted to hear. I think it is correct JKlatsky, the Banfield vet has to follow protocol...and that's wrong. I just wanted everyone here who had an opinion to give me one. I feel like Jake really is a VERY laid back puppy and I should be able to handle it...so my goal is at least a year...if issues arise sooner I will be posting on how to handle them....


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I neutered Cujo early before giving him to mom and dad. They were older and had had some surgeries and I erroneously felt he would be easier to handle for them. They would have to put him out on a chain to potty, and I figured if he had his parts he would do his best to get loose and sow his oats. I knew he would not get a lot of training with mom and dad. He had a bluish tint to his coat, and was the runt of the litter, so, I figured it was the right thing to do. 

Well, Cujo is the only pup out of both litters who has had a string of problems. He had pano -- lots of shepherds do -- they grow out of it no big dea. He had skin problems, tried allergy food, tried to fix the environment, etc. Then at two he had a cluster of siezures. Siezures that they do not know the cause of they call idiopathic epilepsy. People who have had an operation, with a problem with anesthetic can develop siezures down the line. Dogs can too. They do not have to start immediately after the surgery. Dogs after speuters can become low-thyroid. Low thyroid can cause siezures. Once the dog is on phenobarbitol, phenobarbitol can affect T4 levels, but the dog is NOT low thyroid, so even testing the thyroid might not show up because of the possibility that the medicine could be causing the difference. But all of this is circumstantial. And my vet told me that they have lots of siezure dogs, that I would be surprised how many. It makes me wonder why are so many dogs having siezures. 

Cujo was the runt of the litter. And he grew slower than the others. It is certainly possible that he had some congenital issues that stunted his growth. But he did not stop growing until he was over two. He grew taller by inches then the other dogs in the litter. 

My vet agrees that if you neuter before the growth plates close, then the long bones can continue to grow. I have heard on this site that that is only 1/2 inch, Cujo is over 29 inches. The un-neutered dogs are 26-27, and the bitches are 23.5 -24.5 inches. Again circumstantial, but even if it is only 1/2 inch difference, then how come that 1/2 inch longer than nature intended would not affect how the ball fits into the socket??? 

None of my girls have the problems Cujo has had. Was it because I neutered him? It is a possibility. When I think about how much the thyroid affects, all the different things, hair, reproduction, weight, etc, it begs the question whether the lack of the hormones that the testes or ovaries produce, what is the effect on other functions. Does it speed up the cells that promote aging? 

The ugliness of this, is that I performed this surgery because I thought I was doing the right thing, the responsible thing, the best thing for the dog and people involved, and perhaps in order to prevent possible issues, I caused real issues. And maybe not.

Now, I understand that the incidences of some very nasty cancers are increased for dogs neutered young. 

At this point, I will not neuter or spay without a problem with that part of the anatomy. I can manage dogs and contain them whether they are intact or not, so it is not a problem.


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## Gib Laut (Feb 21, 2010)

selzer said:


> At this point, I will not neuter or spay without a problem with that part of the anatomy. I can manage dogs and contain them whether they are intact or not, so it is not a problem.


 Excellent post!....sorry about Cujo. I was feeling highly pressured to neuter mine (and still am but now I ignore!) but after dozens of hours of research I decided not to for the reasons you mentioned. 

This is an excellent review of the literature with several tables at the very end that summarize it well.....I think it's a must read for all considering whether they want to spay or neuter.

http://www.akcchf.org/pdfs/whitepapers/3-23-08DiscoveriesArticle.pdf


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

selzer said:


> It makes me wonder why are so many dogs having siezures.


Not to get off the topic here, but I get one of Kiya's seizure meds, Potassium Bromide from a local CVS drug store since November 2005. When I went to pick this bottle up the pharmacist came up to me and told me that because they have "so many dogs" on it, they changed the formula so it would be a uniformed solution, I just have to change my dosage. 
Kind of makes me wonder too. Booster vaccines every year, early spay/neuter, crap food.


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## we4elves (May 11, 2010)

My vet highly encouraged me to get my female spayed before 6 months( her first cycle) because it greatly reduces the chance of mammary cancer...she said a common problem with GSD


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## Gib Laut (Feb 21, 2010)

kiya said:


> Kind of makes me wonder too. Booster vaccines every year, early spay/neuter, crap food.


Seizures have been linked to vaccination, heavy metal poison/toxins, thyroid and aspects of diet. In my reading I haven't come across a real link to neutering. 

Kiya, if you are interested, here is an interesting question posed to Dr. Pitcairn about homeopathy and seizures.

Leading Voices in Homeopathy :: View topic - homeopathy vs phenobarbital with seizure/epilepsy dog


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

No, and you will probably not. But any time a dog goes under the knife, there can be accidents with anesthetic. Any time oxygen is delayed in getting to the brain, it could cause siezures. So it is possible.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Its starting to seem like you need to do a background check on vets too.lol


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## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

I'm waiting to spay Ursa till she's an adult, maybe when she's 2 yrs old. She's 11 months old now. All my others were altered at 6 months except for Kaiser - he was neutered as an adult just after I adopted him. He never marked and never lifts his leg - in fact I wish he would so he'd stop peeing on his front legs! 

I'm all for early spay/neuters for rescues and have done many myself because I don't trust people enough to rely on them to get it done at 6 months before the animal reproduces. Seen that happen too many times. 

But for my own personal pets I have decided to postpone it till they are adults now. I am perfectly capable of keeping an intact animal from breeding so I will wait.


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## ElvisP (May 19, 2010)

My vet also stated it would be ok as young as 4-6 months. I hand my deceased dog, King, chopped at 6 months and he was 125 lbs, no health issues and lived until 11 1/2 years. 

For Elvis (only 9 weeks now), I'll do more research prior to making a decision. Interesting topic and good replies.


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

Yes, it's a great topic...I am learning so much...let's keep it going!


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i've never neutered any of my dogs
and all of them have healthy with
no social problems.

if i were going to neuter i would wait
untill my dog was 2 yrs. old or more.


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## Elliehanna (Mar 17, 2010)

I had Goren neutered at 15 weeks or so, best thing I ever did, (had to get him done before 6 months because of the rescue I got him at), he had no issues, healed within 5 days fully, he might be taller than he would be if I did not get him neutered so early but he has never marked, squats when peeing, still as playful as ever, not gained weight like people say they do when you get them fixed, he is like 18 months now and had no ill effects. With Lola I am shooting for 5 months if I can get the cash together by then (cross your fingers I have a job interview on Monday) I do not want her to go through a heat cycle, but want to wait as long as I can so she might not become incontinent (heat cycle = more chance % of cancer, no heat cycle = more chance of incontinent...I am doomed either way, but would rather chance pee than chance her life)


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

15 weeks???????


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## Gib Laut (Feb 21, 2010)

jakeandrenee said:


> 15 weeks???????


 ditto.....


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## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

I've neutered and spayed puppies at 9 weeks old, kittens as soon as they weigh 2 pounds. That's what alot of rescues are doing these days. Removes any possible chance that the adopter might not follow up and get them altered.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

not spayed before the first heat = increased risk of mammary tumors, some of which are cancerous.

spayed before the first heat may = increased risk of hemangiosarcoma and osteosarcoma as well as incontinance. 

We had this very discussion in my vet's waiting room, she said that if they don't get spayed or neutered early, she deals with the old age diseases. I thought, well, it is nice if they make it to old age, to have the old age diseases -- mammary cancer, testicular cancer, and prostate problems, usually hit when the dog is older. These other problems often hit younger dogs, and prognosis is not good.

Unfortunately, vets do not give you the whole story, perhaps because they really believe that speutering is the best for the majority of companion animals. 

I guess I will take my chances on the old age diseases. 

The one thing that we can pretty much guarantee, is that unless the dog dies young from injury or illness, it will get some type of old age disease before passing.


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## Gib Laut (Feb 21, 2010)

spiritsmom said:


> I've neutered and spayed puppies at 9 weeks old, kittens as soon as they weigh 2 pounds. That's what alot of rescues are doing these days. Removes any possible chance that the adopter might not follow up and get them altered.


just because rescues do something, doesn't always make it in the best interest of the 
pet; many times it's in the best interest of the human......example:

RSPCA Shock Admission

I don't need to mention the last two fiasco's with our SPCA and Human Society to people of Ontario....we still need to question the actions of rescue organizations some times.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

If it was the case that it prevented "normal behaviors," then spaying/neutering at ANY age would violate that.

not to mention, some dogs (even un-neutered) never lift their legs. And neutered dogs/spayed will mark. 

pretty much everything we do with ANY domestic animal is a disruption of "normal behavior patterns"

For most rescues, it's a simple black and white decision. Either do the spay/neuter at an early age or keep puppies in rescue until they are "old enough" Too many people will sign contracts, but then not do the procedure. If they set the limit at 2 (age most recommended to avoid most of the problems mentioned in the article) that is the opportunity for SEVERAL litters of puppies from a single female. Not to mention a limitless opportunity for even a single male.


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## Gib Laut (Feb 21, 2010)

Dainerra said:


> For most rescues, it's a simple black and white decision. Either do the spay/neuter at an early age or keep puppies in rescue until they are "old enough" Too many people will sign contracts, but then not do the procedure. If they set the limit at 2 (age most recommended to avoid most of the problems mentioned in the article) that is the opportunity for SEVERAL litters of puppies....
> 
> If you're reference here is to the article I posted, what they did say is this "In conclusion, I am all for spaying and neutering, *but at the right time* *and for the right reason,* thereby allowing your dogs to reach full maturity in both body and mind."....while 2 may not be possible is most situations in a rescue, that isn't an excuse for neutering at 6 weeks.....or 8, or 9 weeks for that matter, period IMO......that's the point.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

yes, but even 8 or 9 weeks is considered a pediatric neuter, with exactly the same issues as doing the procedure at 6 weeks.

The only way to avoid the issues mentioned in the article as far as behavior and development is to wait until the dog is fully mature (approx 2 years old) until neutering.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Gib Laut said:


> Seizures have been linked to vaccination, heavy metal poison/toxins, thyroid and aspects of diet. In my reading I haven't come across a real link to neutering.


 Not a direct one but altering does something to change the way the immune system functions. Altered dogs are more likely to be hypothyroid, at greater risk for vaccine reactions and at greater risk for certain types of cancer.

That said, IME their are some bitches who seizure that stop once they are spayed. The trigger for their seizuring seems to be hormonal and these bitches would generally only seizure at certain point of their heat cycle. 

As for why the divide on age to alter - it is extremely PC to push altering as early as possible.


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## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

I'm fully aware of the fact that waiting is better, but honestly for rescues it is simply a wiser decision to have them already fixed. When I first worked for a shelter we did s/n contracts and gave $40 back after proof it had been done. Part of our job was to follow up on ones we hadn't received proof on and many times the animal was still not altered or worse yet had already had a litter - that happened too many times. We finally took one female back and had her spayed after the owner brought us her 4th litter - she'd been adopted from us as a puppy unaltered and although her owners had altered dogs in the home they just never got around to getting her fixed so every time she went into heat some neighborhood dog would get to her. These looked like your average family - they didn't look like bad pet owners yet through their inability to get her fixed 4 more litters were born. How is that responsible for a shelter or rescue to allow that possibility to happen. I can't keep every foster animal till they are 6 mos old to get them fixed at that age. And I adopt out of state so it makes it harder to force someone to get their pet fixed if they live far away. I don't have extra money lying around that I could afford to take someone to court over not getting their pet fixed according to contract. People do not always do as they say. People are not always great at keeping an intact pet from breeding - how many accidental breedings have we seen posted here over the years, and posters here are usually more into dog care than your average adopter. 

Until I can be 100% certain no animal adopted from me would ever be bred then I will continue to alter before adoption. If someone doesn't want a pet that was altered at 9 weeks then they don't have to adopt that pet from me - there are plenty more in shelters that don't care if their adoptions get altered or not. Over the years of doing that I've only had one guy argue with me about it. He wanted the purebred male GSD puppy I had. He was neutered at 16 weeks and the guy was mad because he wanted him to be intact - guess why? He openly told me he wanted a stud dog. I of course told him that wasn't going to happen. Other than him I've had no one take issue with their pet being altered so young. 

I think the topic needs to be looked at differently when you are talking about a pet adopted from a shelter/rescue or when you purchase from a breeder. Breeders don't usually sell to the huge number of homes that rescues/shelters deal with so when they get someone who wants to delay altering it's easier for them to followup on it because the volume is lower. 

I've already stated that for my own pets purchased from breeders I am preferring to wait till adulthood to alter. And I know there is no difference in waiting till 9 weeks versus 6 weeks of age. I just prefer them to weigh a little more and be a little more sturdy when undergoing anesthesia.


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