# Which type of tug/how to practice tracking



## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

I am going to order a tug off of Leerburg I think (or does anyone have anywhere better to order?) Which type of tug is best for an 8 month old???

Is it best to buy dumbells now to practice with? Do the plastic ones work?

What prong collar is best, and which fur saver is best? 

(and what is the purpose of a fur saver?)

*Also:* How do I start practicing tracking with him??? I have a 50 foot lead.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Tugs~ I like the two handle synthetic tugs. I got one from fordogtrainers.com and it is still in one piece 3.5 yrs later. I don't know if they still have them however, and I also have a couple from Elite: Synthetic Tug 12"-Elite K-9 I'd also get a couple gappay balls on strings(medium size) Hallmark K9 - Premium Dog Training Equipment - BALLS
Herm Sprenger for the prong and fursaver(fursavers are used in trialing, but the rules have now changed) Either site above will have them, make sure you get the size you'll need for an adult dog(fursaver for males are usually 25" though my male outgrew his 25)

Wait on the dumbbells until you get instruction on how to teach the hold. 

For tracking, you won't need a long line, because you'll be close to your dog for several sessions while teaching. The only thing you need to begin is some surveyor flags, and yummy bait.
Get with your club for instruction...remember no training is better than bad training! 
Here is a link to some good articles:
Schutzhund Village


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I prefer French linen with two handles.

You do not need dumbbells now. If you are going to backchain the retrieve usually you start with something else like a wooden dowel or piece of PVC pipe which you can borrow or get from a hardware store. Many people never have dumbbells but just borrow them or use them while at the club. I only have one and it's not a trial dumbbell, just an old training one someone gave me.

For prong I like my curogan prong, the links are 3.25mm I believe. For a fursaver it doesn't really matter. You get what you pay for as far as the metal or alloy used but I have an $8 Fursaver my dog trials wearing and it's fine (several years old, no rust). A Fursaver is required for trialing. As far as the purpose, it just depends on how you train. My dogs rarely wear one in training because they tend to wear a normal leather collar and/or a prong collar.

50' is way overkill for starting tracking. Heck my dog has tracked in two different types of trials and I rarely track more than 15' behind him and use a 20' line in training. You need to start *really* close (like bending over the dog) so you could probably use a normal obedience lead. You need a 33' line for trialing but I personally don't train at that distance until leading up to a trial.


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

Thanks for the magnitude of information Liesje and onyx girl! Okay so next question then, since im ordering him a tug today, what size? Liesje, where do you get your french linen ones? And thanks ill wait on the dumbbells, was just curious if anyone had trained with plastic ones that they sell on leerburg. So a fursaver isnt necessary right now. I do want to invest in a good quality prong (i bought a cheapie one from petsmart just to see how he did with it). So I will order one of those as well as a tug. Thanks for the info on the prong - helps a lot! 

Haha yeah im clueless with the tracking :blush: I obviously wasnt going to start with 50 feet, but wasnt sure if they use a 50 foot lead in the trials or not. I have a 6 foot lead, so ill start with that and then work up to a 20 foot one. 

onyx'girl, those gappay balls are cool, i will order some of those as well! Where can I get some surveyor flags? I have read about stamping out an area and putting the food there, by stamping they mean with my feet, correct? LOL im definitely new with this. Thanks for the articles! I printed out a bunch of stuff on the obedience and beginning tracking so I just want to start working with him at home to get him started. And I want to introduce a tug with him and try and work on getting him to release on command and what not. I am supposed to go check out the Indian Creek Schutzhund Club next month, so hopefully everything with that goes well. 

Again, thank you! You two have helped me tremendously.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I think my tug is about 8 inches long and 3-4 inches wide. I don't primarily use tugs as rewards though so it might be considered on the bigger side. Normally I order from elitek9 or my club does group orders from hallmarkk9.

I actually used a pet store brand prong collar for years and to be honest there's a lot I like about it more than my Herm Sprenger curogan one. You just want to make sure it has rounded tips, no matter the brand. Mine has never come apart on me while using it while both my HS brand ones have come apart (and yes I know how to fit and use a prong!).

Indian Creek is good, I bought my last dog from the breeders that host the club. I would not do too much before you get hooked up with a club for help. You might even wait on buying gear. Often you can borrow stuff or order through a club and get it cheaper.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

My strongest suggestion is to join a club, get instruction, and then buy whatever they tell you to buy. Do not try and train by yourself without professional help. It's much easier to teach a dog the right way to do something than have to retrain them to do it correctly, especially with tracking.

For the dumbbell...buy some wooden dowels at the hardware store. They'll work great for practice.


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

Liesje said:


> I think my tug is about 8 inches long and 3-4 inches wide. I don't primarily use tugs as rewards though so it might be considered on the bigger side. Normally I order from elitek9 or my club does group orders from hallmarkk9.
> 
> I actually used a pet store brand prong collar for years and to be honest there's a lot I like about it more than my Herm Sprenger curogan one. You just want to make sure it has rounded tips, no matter the brand. Mine has never come apart on me while using it while both my HS brand ones have come apart (and yes I know how to fit and use a prong!).
> 
> Indian Creek is good, I bought my last dog from the breeders that host the club. I would not do too much before you get hooked up with a club for help. You might even wait on buying gear. Often you can borrow stuff or order through a club and get it cheaper.


The prong I bought does have rounded tips, its just one of those easy to put on ones, here this is the one I have: Top Paw® Easy on Prong Training Collar - Collars - Collars, Harnesses & Leashes - PetSmart

Is that one doable for now? It works, its fitted correctly, has the rounded prongs. Yeah this one hasnt come apart on me - shocked that the HS ones have come apart! 

Well thanks, I guess i'll hold off on the training and what not - just work on perfecting his obedience, and working with the tug for now. I am supposed to go visit the club this Sunday, hopefully I can make it out there! And Bill Kulla hosts the club, correct? Im excited, his dogs are awesome, and he really seems to know what he's doing with schutzhund! It'd be awesome to learn from him. 



martemchik said:


> My strongest suggestion is to join a club, get instruction, and then buy whatever they tell you to buy. Do not try and train by yourself without professional help. It's much easier to teach a dog the right way to do something than have to retrain them to do it correctly, especially with tracking.
> 
> For the dumbbell...buy some wooden dowels at the hardware store. They'll work great for practice.


Thanks martemchik, ill hold off on the training - wasnt going to start on much because I dont want to do it wrong anyways! If I buy some dowels, is it okay if I start getting him used to picking them up and stuff? And i am just going to get him used to the idea of sniffing a small track and finding the food. I just want to introduce some of these things to him, in the most basic way possible.


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## yote54 (Nov 22, 2011)

"remember no training is better than bad training!" best advice ever. I have only done a bit of Schutzhund, son't plan to compete or anything, just the obedience has been helpful to learn from people that know GSDs. the club I go to was a HUGE help. Starting off on the wrong foot with the wrong group is hard to fix down the road. People on this forum have already had the 'bad' experiences and are happy to share what works. You will find what works for you and can leave the rest of it for someone else. All good suggestions from what I've read, most of them I got from here, too.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I personally don't use anything with plastic buckles. My off-brand prong is still made like an HS prong (and has a few elements that the HS ones do not).

For retrieves you really need to have help with this. There are lots of different methods but it's super important (it's almost half the points of the obedience routine) so you do not want to dabble around with it. Most dogs don't start this until they are a year old or so, some not until after the BH. The dowels are not for picking up, they are for training the hold.


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

I read about the retrieve, and yeah no idea how to train that, and definitely wasnt planning to by myself! I wasnt sure if it would be helpful to get used to holding the dowel or not. I will just wait on that though. No need to rush anything. Like I said, his obedience is first and foremost....and definitely need work on that! 

Any tips for training a reliable down stay? Heel? And how to ignore distractions? (other dogs, people, cars, etc) He barks at distractions. 

I have been working on the heel, but it is next to impossible to get him to do it outside where there are distractions. And he never looks at me while we are walking. 

Also Liesje, we are training to take the CGC as just a start, but plan on taking the BH afterward. Is it really hard? I printed out everything I need to know about it. When I join a club, they help train for that correct? Also, how/when does he get temperament tested, or does he not need to? 

What did you do with your dogs at home when they were this age, to help prepare them for IPO/SchH? Also, dumb question, but if Berlin earns a a title in SchH/IPO, does it HAVE to be IPO? They dont use SchH anymore correct?

And thanks yote, this forum is awesome for advice, ill agree on that. Been so helpful.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

You can get surveyor flags at home stores. French linen and synthetic tugs are the same thing. The12 inch tugs are what I use most often.


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> You can get surveyor flags at home stores. French linen and synthetic tugs are the same thing. The12 inch tugs are what I use most often.



Yeah i figured that out, sorry im a newbie! haha are these balls okay? 

Elite Working Balls with T-tug Handle-Elite K-9

The medium ones. Not sure if those are the same thing as those balls you posted. Just trying to order from one place!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Those are fine, though the t will hit the dog in the face when they run w/ball in mouth! They are strong balls/hold up pretty well


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

So the ones without the handle?  thanks so much!! 


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

For tracking start by reading " tracking from the beginning" by Gary Patterson.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

gsdlover91 said:


> I read about the retrieve, and yeah no idea how to train that, and definitely wasnt planning to by myself! I wasnt sure if it would be helpful to get used to holding the dowel or not. I will just wait on that though. No need to rush anything. Like I said, his obedience is first and foremost....and definitely need work on that!


I would not do any formal hold or retrieve training yet. Fetch is good. Basically you want to encourage playing WITH you, not just grabbing a toy and running off. Ideally the dog will run back to you and slam the toy into your hands or on your chest.



> Any tips for training a reliable down stay? Heel? And how to ignore distractions? (other dogs, people, cars, etc) He barks at distractions.


Again, work with the club. I train my down in motion and long down using a prong collar and pairing negative and positive reinforcement but obviously wait with this until the dog is mature enough for this type of training because I'm using some pressure and physical corrections (usually 10 months or older but depends on the dog and the level of handler sensitivity).



> I have been working on the heel, but it is next to impossible to get him to do it outside where there are distractions. And he never looks at me while we are walking.


Personally I make walks about walking and only do formal heeling in the context of training short, intense sessions and only after the dog/puppy understands the heel position, keeping focus, and being very willing to train and work with me (see vids below for what I do *before* heeling). Usually this is at home, at the training club, or we go somewhere specifically to train. The last thing you want is to be giving commands you know the dog can't or won't obey. For me leash walking and manners are separate from Schutzhund training. The dogs are free to sniff around and look forward as long as they aren't trying to drag me down the street. Walking is for them and the rules are much more relaxed.



> Also Liesje, we are training to take the CGC as just a start, but plan on taking the BH afterward. Is it really hard? I printed out everything I need to know about it. When I join a club, they help train for that correct? Also, how/when does he get temperament tested, or does he not need to?


Yes they will definitely help with this!! You don't need a BH first to join a club. They will help you with the obedience and setup "mock" trials for you to practice the different elements before the trial.

They will probably do some sort of evaluation the first time or first few times you visit.



> What did you do with your dogs at home when they were this age, to help prepare them for IPO/SchH? Also, dumb question, but if Berlin earns a a title in SchH/IPO, does it HAVE to be IPO? They dont use SchH anymore correct?


I work on basic stuff like sit and down, perch work for rear end awareness, learning to make eye contact in front and basic position. Below are some videos of what I did with Pan as a puppy (3 months, 4 months, 5 months...note that the luring with food is not how I train *heeling*, I do that later on with a prong collar and toy reward, but I use food with a puppy to help train body awareness and make that position a rewarding place to be). The dog in these videos is the one I bought from the Indian Creek people. I would do the same stuff with a beginner dog even if the dog is not a little puppy. I personally start right away but even seasoned SchH people will not do any obedience until 1-2 years so you are not behind, there's just different schools of thought. I *like* doing obedience with my puppies so that's how I do it  You can see how sloppy he is at 9 weeks (literally trips over himself and his sits are crooked) but then he slowly gets better, more precise, more focused...























Yes it is all IPO now so the titles will be IPO1, IPO2....


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I would hold off until you have some instruction on how to do this stuff. Even playing tug wrong can create issues. There is more to it than a normal game of tug-o-war.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

mycobraracr said:


> I would hold off until you have some instruction on how to do this stuff. Even playing tug wrong can create issues. There is more to it than a normal game of tug-o-war.


Other than not rewarding for a shallow bite, instead encouraging the pup to counter to get a better grip, I see no problem with playing tug. 
If the dog has 'it' genetically, then it shouldn't matter. And if the dog doesn't have 'it', then it shouldn't matter, because it will show up regardless of how tugging was introduced.


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

I am not going to do any formal hold and retrieve, i will wait. I do play fetch with him, he does come back to me, but more so to "flaunt" the toy to me, like hey I have it you don't. How do I get the enthusiasm to get him to slam it into me like that? 

Oh and sorry I didn't make it clear. Walks are for walking/running, sniffing and enjoying. I have short heel training sessions in the house usually. Have seen some improvement. I have tried to take him outside in the drive way to do the same (not go on a walk) but he has no desire. So I should just keep practicing inside until he understands it more. Also, he is pretty good with loose leash walking, he lags behind sometimes, but isn't a big puller. 

I noticed some dogs have a temperament test title thingy, that isn't required?

What is perch work? If by rear end awareness you mean like sitting straight etc, I need to work on that with him. He heels next to me at an angle with his butt out. Glad to know I'm not behind! I just don't want to come to a club and have a dog who is crazy and has no idea what to do.  thanks for posting those videos, ill check them out when I get home and onto my computer. 

One other thing, he is very barky towards other dogs, and gets excited when he's around new people ( like REALLY excited) is that normal? Will it have an affect on training him in IPO? I have a flirt pole and he is great with the prey drive, and he is a fast, learner, and is very eager to learn too. Eh I'm over here worrying, he's probably more cut out for it than I am, I need the formal training :crazy: Liesje, thanks SO much for all this information, you have been more than helpful. I appreciate it very much!


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> Other than not rewarding for a shallow bite, instead encouraging the pup to counter to get a better grip, I see no problem with playing tug.
> If the dog has 'it' genetically, then it shouldn't matter. And if the dog doesn't have 'it', then it shouldn't matter, because it will show up regardless of how tugging was introduced.


I read about the tug in that article you posted, and he displays many of those behaviors with the flirt pole, rag, and other things I have used to play with him. That article explained alot in terms of just how to get the puppy to bite right and treat the tug/rag like a prized possession. Since I have been doing alot of that with him already, I am just going to build on it like how they say in the article, no 'formal' training. Just building a foundation! Thanks very much for the information onyx girl. 


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I agree it Jane on tug. Personally I don't like to discourage people having fun with their dog, regardless of their goals. Just use common sense. Don't overdo the obedience (making the dog constantly "out", taking the tug away....you want to build the dog's confidence so let him WIN!), don't physically overpower your dog, don't rip hard on the tug while teething...common sense stuff. Just have fun. If the dog is really into it, then you're doing it right. 



gsdlover91 said:


> I am not going to do any formal hold and retrieve, i will wait. I do play fetch with him, he does come back to me, but more so to "flaunt" the toy to me, like hey I have it you don't. How do I get the enthusiasm to get him to slam it into me like that?


I let the dog "win" (I get dramatic about letting him pull me around and then I give up the toy) and then I sort of praise and clap for him while he flaunts and then I jog backwards and call him back to me. At first I reach the tug but after a while the dog catches on and will press it into you. Be careful though, some dogs really get into the chest slamming and will slam their handler when they're not expecting it!



> Oh and sorry I didn't make it clear. Walks are for walking/running, sniffing and enjoying. I have short heel training sessions in the house usually. Have seen some improvement. I have tried to take him outside in the drive way to do the same (not go on a walk) but he has no desire. So I should just keep practicing inside until he understands it more. Also, he is pretty good with loose leash walking, he lags behind sometimes, but isn't a big puller.


Yes, I do most of my obedience at home (with other dogs and toys put away) or at Schutzhund club. Pretty quickly Schutzhund club stops being distracting because the dogs learn they are their to WORK and they *want* to do obedience with you.



> I noticed some dogs have a temperament test title thingy, that isn't required?


If you mean the ATTS TT (or the parent club's version) that is different and not required. I do it because I used to rent a house and my landlords liked my dogs having CGCs and TTs. I had to prove they had basic training (as far as pets go) and were not crazy aggressive so I show the landlords their certificates.



> What is perch work? If by rear end awareness you mean like sitting straight etc, I need to work on that with him. He heels next to me at an angle with his butt out. Glad to know I'm not behind! I just don't want to come to a club and have a dog who is crazy and has no idea what to do.  thanks for posting those videos, ill check them out when I get home and onto my computer.


Celeste Meade has some good videos on perch work. Basically it's teaching the dog to keep the front feet in position and move the rear around, so the dog can execute left turns on a dime or flip from front to basic position. She uses a brick; I use a thick plastic dog bowl upside down. You can also use a phone book or a box as long as it doesn't slide around.













> One other thing, he is very barky towards other dogs, and gets excited when he's around new people ( like REALLY excited) is that normal? Will it have an affect on training him in IPO?


Depending on age, yes. Both my boys went through a phase from about 6-10 months where they were distracted by other dogs and always trying to bark or one-up the other dog if I let them. It effects training in that it's something you'll need to work through but it's not a huge red flag, not for me.


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

Awesome, thanks again. Great advice. Yep he's 8 months old, and have noticed since sometime around 6 months, hes been really vocal. Nothing aggressive, or anything, so i'm sure once he matures, and with proper training, it will fade. How do you train them not to bark? Im having a hard time with the quiet command, and once he starts barking, he just keeps going, until the dog is out of sight.



Liesje said:


> I agree it Jane on tug. Personally I don't like to discourage people having fun with their dog, regardless of their goals. Just use common sense. Don't overdo the obedience (making the dog constantly "out", taking the tug away....you want to build the dog's confidence so let him WIN!), don't physically overpower your dog, don't rip hard on the tug while teething...common sense stuff. Just have fun. If the dog is really into it, then you're doing it right.


Yeah thats common sense, I let him win sometimes, I win sometimes, and I've been doing this for a long time (couple months) He knows not to come to me and initiate a tug session, we only play tug when I initiate it. He definitely has confidence, he gets really into it! He enjoys it alot, especially because its a game we don't get to play all the time. 



> I let the dog "win" (I get dramatic about letting him pull me around and then I give up the toy) and then I sort of praise and clap for him while he flaunts and then I jog backwards and call him back to me. At first I reach the tug but after a while the dog catches on and will press it into you. Be careful though, some dogs really get into the chest slamming and will slam their handler when they're not expecting it!


Thanks, Ill have to try this. 



> If you mean the ATTS TT (or the parent club's version) that is different and not required. I do it because I used to rent a house and my landlords liked my dogs having CGCs and TTs. I had to prove they had basic training (as far as pets go) and were not crazy aggressive so I show the landlords their certificates.


Yes, thats what I was referring too. IF i did want to take the test with him, where do I do that at? With the AKC or with the Schutzhund club?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

It's through the ATTS (atts.org). The dog has to be 18 months old.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

The TC is kind of hard to come by...but my club will be having one in March or September. We're around the Milwaukee, WI area and that might be the closest place you'll see it. We've had people drive in from Michigan to get their dog's temperament certification. I'll try to remember to let you know when I have more information on it.

If you're as serious as you sound about training...get yourself and your dog to a club ASAP. You need someone to watch you train and watch your dog work. As a novice trainer there are things you won't pick up just from reading a book, or an article. You're not really going to spot your dog making those 1/2 point and 1/4 point mistakes...and the more of those you allow your dog to make when he's young, the harder it will be to retrain him to do it right. Pet training, and training for competitive obedience are very different things, and you really need professional or at least experienced help watching you in order to figure them out.

For the temperament test through the GSDCA the dog has to be one year old...not 18 months.

I know you're excited about all this stuff, and its really fun (I got my first dog 2 years ago) but the only way to learn to do it right is at a club...not online.


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

martemchik said:


> The TC is kind of hard to come by...but my club will be having one in March or September. We're around the Milwaukee, WI area and that might be the closest place you'll see it. We've had people drive in from Michigan to get their dog's temperament certification. I'll try to remember to let you know when I have more information on it.
> 
> If you're as serious as you sound about training...get yourself and your dog to a club ASAP. You need someone to watch you train and watch your dog work. As a novice trainer there are things you won't pick up just from reading a book, or an article. You're not really going to spot your dog making those 1/2 point and 1/4 point mistakes...and the more of those you allow your dog to make when he's young, the harder it will be to retrain him to do it right. Pet training, and training for competitive obedience are very different things, and you really need professional or at least experienced help watching you in order to figure them out.
> 
> ...


No I know, I have already emailed the club, just waiting for their visitor day, so I can check it out and talk to them. They have 1 or 2 visitor days a month, one is this Sunday, and I *hope* I can make it out there. If not, I will go to the next one. I do know someone who has titled their dogs to SchH3 and is actively involved in it, and have talked to her about it. Shes with the club in West Chicago though. Im not completely in the dark, just dont know all the specifics. But I know the club is where I need to start. Milwaukee is not too far, probably an hour. Im located in the Northern suburbs of Chi, so closer to the border of WI. If you could let me know, that'd be awesome! Thanks for the advice. 



Liesje said:


> It's through the ATTS (atts.org). The dog has to be 18 months old.


Thanks


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