# BAT, CAT or LAT?



## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

BAT, CAT or LAT. I know many on this forum subscribe to these methods and have used them. 

What are your experiences posative/negative? 
Were they successful? 
Did you find one method to be more preferrable then the others? 
How quick was your progress?
Did you work your dog on your own or go to classes?


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## prockerb (Sep 3, 2012)

Yay! Intresting thread. I can't answer all the questions but I did tried Lat. I think with Lat my dog started to associate the cue with panicking. He started to learn that LAT means dogs is near so panic, but that is our case. It would be diffrent from dog to dog.

I think Lat is awesome when you are happen to be training (a non fearful dog) and there is some dogs in the near distance that can be distracting for your dog. You can cue your dog to look at the other dogs, and then the dog knows to look at the dogs, and then look back at you because he/she will then get a reward. You will start to notice with time the dog will start to look so quickly at the other dogs that you might not even know that they did look. haha So it is a great way to keep on having your dog's attention. Of course you need to be at the right distance, blah blah blah..


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

prockerb said:


> Yay! Intresting thread. I can't answer all the questions but I did tried Lat. I think with Lat my dog started to associate the cue with panicking. He started to learn that LAT means dogs is near so panic, but that is our case. It would be diffrent from dog to dog.


If that's what happened then it was likely due to a flaw in the way you trained it. Did you start teaching it in a low distraction such as in the house, with a neutral object, before trying it in the presence of a trigger? 

And once your dog "gets" it and will quickly glance at something and then look back at you immediately after the click, you could take it outside but you still want the trigger to be far enough away that your dog is sub-threshold.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Has anyone on here done CAT and if so what were the long term effects. Did you still experience the intitial explosion upon sight of the trigger? Is there a method you prefer for a fearful aggressive dog, for a shy dog or excited dog.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

For those, like me, who tried to google "dog behavior modification CAT" and got a bunch of stuff about dogs attacking felines, this thread explains all three (though probably doesn't address the OP's question)

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-theory-methods/177594-what-lat-bat-cat-training-2.html


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## Neo93 (Apr 25, 2011)

We did LAT as part of our reactive dog class, and she'd look at the trigger and look back, get treated, rinse and repeat. Her threshold stayed at her threshold, though - LAT didn't do much to desensitize her to her triggers. We did LAT at 20 feet at the beginning of our reactive dog class, and three class series later, we were still doing LAT at 20 feet. Any closer would send her over her threshold.

I think we have had the most improvement with BAT, possibly because it helps her figure out what to do instead of throwing a massive hissy fit. It took maybe 10-15 BAT sessions before I saw obvious improvement, and we're still working at it. I went to class, and I worked with a trainer, and I worked on my own with her.

CAT didn't really do much for us, because once Frieda was over threshold - she was gone off to German shepherd planet somewhere. I could have waited all day, and she would not have offered an appropriate behavior. I'm not sure if that's because she really didn't have any idea what an alternative behavior would be or if she was so upset that she couldn't figure out what to do.

Is it successful? I suppose it depends how you measure success . It didn't make her into a dog neutral GSD whom I could take anywhere. She still is territorial, and any dog that she happens to see walk by the house would get an earful if I didn't put a stop to it. But... Frieda is definitely better. I can put a stop to the barking/lunging behavior. We can now exit the training facility and she doesn't lose it if she sees a dog, but I have to be on top of it all the time. She is much much better now than she used to be with people, especially adults. I don't know that I will ever fully trust her around children, but she is amazingly tolerant with my own kids. I have a very temporary foster dog in the house - separated from her, true, but she is able to relax and not constantly patrol the house because there is a strange dog crated in the office behind closed doors, and that would not have been possible last year.


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## Zeeva (Aug 10, 2010)

wildo said:


> For those, like me, who tried to google "dog behavior modification CAT" and got a bunch of stuff about dogs attacking felines, this thread explains all three (though probably doesn't address the OP's question)
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-theory-methods/177594-what-lat-bat-cat-training-2.html


THANK YOU! I googled as well but this may be more helpful! Maybe we will use it! 

THANK YOU!


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## prockerb (Sep 3, 2012)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> If that's what happened then it was likely due to a flaw in the way you trained it. Did you start teaching it in a low distraction such as in the house, with a neutral object, before trying it in the presence of a trigger?
> 
> And once your dog "gets" it and will quickly glance at something and then look back at you immediately after the click, you could take it outside but you still want the trigger to be far enough away that your dog is sub-threshold.


Yeah I did started in the house with a neutral object (I used a statue of a bird), but I think the big mistake I did was that I even did it when there where dogs in allmost over threshold situations which that might been the problem. When he is over threshold I don't really ask him to do it because there is no way I can grabbed his attention when he get soo aroused, but yeah you are right!


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## prockerb (Sep 3, 2012)

Any other CAT info? I never had heard of it!


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

With Woolf, LAT worked for the inanimate objects. Once dogs were added, 1/2 a block was as close could work and didn't improve from that. Humans, depending if they were dog smart, would get to about 10-15 ft before reactions occur.

CAT - Woolf completely zones out, aggression continues to escalate to the point of redirecting. Did not work.

Woolf has had the biggest improvement with BAT. I think because it gives him a choice, some control of saying 'ok this is enough'. Consistently now within 20-25 ft of dogs and just curiosity, occasionally getting within 10 ft of dogs but not even close to consistent with that distance. With humans he is now actively seeking the interaction. 

Woolf is 2 yrs old, got him at 19 weeks as a feral pup (long back story). Soon after he got to the point of trusting us and crate and house training done, we realized the full scope of issues we were dealing with (we thought lol). Worked with 2 different positive only trainers and achieved the results as said with LAT and CAT. Obviously not happy with the results, then located the behaviorist we are going to now. The bonus is she has worked with feral dogs in the past. We began work with her late fall last year, began BAT early summer this year and continue to use it. This has been with private classes and on our own. The next goal is growly dog classes to transfer him over to a class setting then nose work classes.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Very interesting, of the three methods I would have assumed CAT to be the most effective followed by BAT. Seems like its the other way around based on what I have been reading. I also get the impression that most of you on here dont see results for quite a few sessions. When reading on the BAT site it was suggested that one could observe measurable results after the first session or two. Perhaps this is a method as with all methods that work better with some dogs then others.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I haven't really formally done any of these. I did take a "reactive dog" class with my dog though. They mostly had us work on eye contact, have the dogs watch us/hold eye contact when another dog was nearby. I guess that is something similar to BAT? They didn't call it that so I don't know.
I found that this helped to some extent, except sometimes my dog would be so focused on me she wouldn't realize a dog was too close, and then she'd suddenly realize and would react (this was mostly in the early days of her training, when we were in the class). Also I noticed she preferred to be able to watch the environment and it raised her stress level if I made her 'watch me' when she really wanted to be keeping an eye on what was going on around us. 
So I did a little work somewhat similar to LAT later after we were done with that class. However I didn't actually use a "LAT" cue, I just clicked/rewarded her for calmly looking at other dogs, no staring and not giving any other signs that would mean she was close to a reaction. This did help also.
She's gotten a LOT better since the beginning, from very reactive when I first got her(would bark/lunge/growl if we saw a dog in the distance); to now where we can go places around other dogs with no problem and she generally does not react, if she does it is only barking and I can usually redirect her before she does if I notice the early signs or can stop her after a few barks. She was never aggressive at all though, just leash reactive.


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

Doing the LAT. I've found if you use the cue, which I did early on when I first read about this and poorly trained it myself, it creates stress for the dog because the cue predicts the stressor.

What we are doing now in reactive dog class is just clicking when she looks at the trigger, and trying to turn her back towards me with the treating action. We are at 2 weeks in, and I feel she may have gotten more reactive to dogs in the mean time. Her distance to react on the street is more than 40 meters away. But in class, we are very good, can be just 3-4 meters away.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

marshies said:


> Doing the LAT. I've found if you use the cue, which I did early on when I first read about this and poorly trained it myself, it creates stress for the dog because the cue predicts the stressor.


If you train LAT correctly, that shouldn't happen. The cue would be letting the dog know that it's time to interact with their owner in a familiar game, which should alleviate stress. LAT means that the dog will not have to interact with the trigger, it's a "look but don't touch" protocol. Staring is a big trigger, and part of why LAT works is that it's a series of very quick glances - the dog learns to self interrupt a stare and refocus back on the owner.


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> If you train LAT correctly, that shouldn't happen. The cue would be letting the dog know that it's time to interact with their owner in a familiar game, which should alleviate stress. LAT means that the dog will not have to interact with the trigger, it's a "look but don't touch" protocol. Staring is a big trigger, and part of why LAT works is that it's a series of very quick glances - the dog learns to self interrupt a stare and refocus back on the owner.


Of course, which is why I said when I taught it incorrectly in the beginning. 

Edit: I just noticed I didn't explain myself properly in my original post. What I meant to say was, when I taught it wrong in the beginning, the cue became a stressor for my dog. But right now, I'm just doing it not on-cue.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> When reading on the BAT site it was suggested that one could observe measurable results after the first session or two. Perhaps this is a method as with all methods that work better with some dogs then others.


I would think degree of aggression would play into the speed of results as well. I know in the DVDs on some of the demonstrations, she indicates she has been working with the particular dog for some time.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Kind of off topic....

I haven't seen any mention of anyone doing this anywhere. Would using LAT and BAT during alternate sessions improve progress or simply cause confusion?

After the above post on Woolf's results with both methods, I started wondering about this. Also with Woolf being a completely different dog, confidence wise, then what he was when we first did LAT, that may make a difference.

Comments anyone?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Twyla said:


> I haven't seen any mention of anyone doing this anywhere. Would using LAT and BAT during alternate sessions improve progress or simply cause confusion?


I haven't tried BAT, but I don't think it would be incompatible with LAT, which I have done. A dog that really _needs_ BAT might not be able to do LAT though, unless they were much further away from the trigger. 

Halo is very good at LAT, but she's also not that reactive, and there's no fear there at all, (she is VERY confident!) she'll just snark at another dog that snarks at her first, which is why we sometimes use LAT.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I haven't tried BAT, but I don't think it would be incompatible with LAT, which I have done. A dog that really _needs_ BAT might not be able to do LAT though, unless they were much further away from the trigger.


That leads me to think LAT may be backing up some in one way, but then if he could tolerate it now, he may/would benefit from controlled responses instead of the number of choices he can make with BAT.

With Woolf, it's all fear, just no flight to it. He is going to get the scary dog to move away from him.


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## prockerb (Sep 3, 2012)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> If you train LAT correctly, that shouldn't happen. The cue would be letting the dog know that it's time to interact with their owner in a familiar game, which should alleviate stress. LAT means that the dog will not have to interact with the trigger, it's a "look but don't touch" protocol. Staring is a big trigger, and part of why LAT works is that it's a series of very quick glances - the dog learns to self interrupt a stare and refocus back on the owner.


You know I am going to "re train" it with another cue. I want to see how it goes.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Have you read Control Unleashed? I think a lot of people hear about LAT but haven't read the book, which tells you exactly how to train it. If you haven't, it's an excellent book and I can highly recommend it.


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