# Dark sable coats



## HarleyTheGSD

I understand that it's very common to see German working lines with dark sable coats, including my male, but has anyone seen a dark sable coat on an American show line/pet line GSD? Whenever I see one with this coat, I immediately assume that the dog is from German lines. Maybe I assumed wrong?


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## Jaxx's mom

Interesting
Jaxx *may* be show lines, but I don't think so (we don't know) But if he is a show line, he has a REALLY dark sable coat. I'm sure some others will chime in with some info because I would like to know about this also. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## DaniFani

I think it's becoming more and more possible that a Sable on the street is a mix of show line, dark Sable is becoming increasingly popular (I've seen several around me lately), a lot of byb's are throwing a Sable into their lines to cater to the shift in coat preference. Just what I've been noticing. My previous us GSD came from a byb that had several "dark sables" that were American lines, that she bred to American lines and German show lines. It was one of her big selling points.


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## onyx'girl

Am pet lines are usually a mixed up bag of lines so getting a dark sable is very possible, but hard to trace pedigree because many who breed the pet lines don't have papers or pedigrees for the dogs they breed. Am show lines on the other hand~I doubt you'll see any dark sables if they are all Am showline.


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## Liesje

Am show lines seem to be a lighter, patterned reddish sable usually. I don't think I've ever seen a really dark Am show line sable in person.


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## hunterisgreat

i've never seen a show line sable as far as i'm aware


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## Lucy Dog

I've seen one show line sable. Very light sable. Kind of like the redish/tan patterned sable color that lies described. Had the typical ASL conformation though.


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## martemchik

If you see an ASL sable its probably a patterned one and won't be that dark. The reason is that the black/tan is preferred and therefore is bred for. It's very very difficult to get the sable coat out of your breeding program once you allow it in, and since its much more difficult to get a championship on a sable (even with proper conformation) many breeders don't use them in their programs.

The darker the dog, the easier it is to see their faults, which is why you don't see that many blacks as well.

As for pet lines...you probably see plenty just don't know it. Dark sables are becoming popular and are advertised as working lines. Many people get them from breeders that don't work them and don't prove them, but still call them working lines, so those people keep calling them working lines, even though they might've been mixed with something else.


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## carmspack

I have seen dark sable American show line dogs. "American" breeders didn't have the disdain for sables that the WGSL breeders did . One I can remember goes back to the early 80's , a Sundance Kid son , Rohan's Reaction . I owned one - a Sanhedrin bred female "Rosy" (who looked like a bi colour red sable )


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## carmspack

seriously --- having a library of The Canadian Shepherd and German Shepherd dog reviews that go back to the early 70 's and Red Books and Maturity books there are LOTS of sables. They won ! 1981 Maturity Victor -- Wencinschells Eros -- sable 
CH INT/US Frack von der Burg Arkenstede - dark sable ancestor on Eros


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## Susan_GSD_mom

carmspack said:


> seriously --- having a library of The Canadian Shepherd and German Shepherd dog reviews that go back to the early 70 's and Red Books and Maturity books there are LOTS of sables. They won ! 1981 Maturity Victor -- Wencinschells Eros -- sable
> CH INT/US Frack von der Burg Arkenstede - dark sable ancestor on Eros


Long live sables!

RIP my big boy, Cesar.


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## Harry and Lola

I actually met a dark sable working Australian line male (entire) recently. He was a very very good looking dog, although high maintenance for the owner, his prey drive is massive and she has trained a Lab to UDX and is finding his lack of focus a problem with what she wants to do with him. Not sure whether his issues in obedience training/trialling have anything to do with the fact he is working rather than show?


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## martemchik

Lack of focus is a genetic thing. I've met a few dogs with drive out the you know what but they don't have any food drive or tug drive so its very hard to get them focused on doing what the handler wants them to do. They'll do it without a problem, but getting them to realize that's what you want them to do when you say it is very difficult. This is something that I see in show lines as well...they'll just generally have less drive so the absence of focus isn't as noticeable because the dog isn't all over the place doing things, its just sitting by the owner. Just as difficult to train IMO.

And great...30 years ago there were sable winners in the show ring. That's not today. I'm sure there are plenty of sable AKC champions, but what I wrote comes straight from the mouth of an ASL breeder that consistently produces champion dogs. He also had a sable champion in the early/mid 90's, said it was a great dog, produced very nice dogs, but very difficult to champion in a small amount of shows.

Remember all, a championship is attainable, just depends on how many shows you want to go to and how much money you want to spend. It's much more effective to have a dog that can finish in one weekend, than a dog that needs to be shown at multiple shows a year until it finally shows against lesser competition.


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## DaniFani

Re-read my post, I should clarify, it sounds like I said the sables from the byb were pure "american line." They were a mix, predominantly American line, with a sable "whatever" dog thrown in. OP, I think it is wrong to assume that any sable on the street is of German working lines, especially with the flavor of the week being "dark/black sables." I've become pretty pessimistic that I usually start out assuming the dog is from a byb, until I talk to the owner...I know that's terrible, there are just a lot of breeders in my area breeding for "sable" and the pedigree is an afterthought, a complete mis-mash of mostly show, with some "working" lines thrown in for color. Of course they are just catering to the market the pet community has created, which is "I want a sable...that's really all I care about...oh, and that it's good with kids I guess...I also want him to be 120+ pounds." lol, Sorry, I have a cold and I'm grumpy.

I DO think that 99.9999% of PURE showline pedigrees, are black/tan or black/red....maybe with some patterned sables thrown in here and there. As Carm has shown, there are a couple sables from way back in the day, but I think black and tan is the predominant coloration in the "pure" showlines. I just don't think much of what you see on the streets or in pet homes, is "pure" anything.


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## dogfaeries

martemchik said:


> And great...30 years ago there were sable winners in the show ring. That's not today. I'm sure there are plenty of sable AKC champions, but what I wrote comes straight from the mouth of an ASL breeder that consistently produces champion dogs. He also had a sable champion in the early/mid 90's, said it was a great dog, produced very nice dogs, but very difficult to champion in a small amount of shows.


As I've said many times before, we have lots of nice sable dogs showing around here. One of my good friends has a sable AKC Grand Champion. In fact I have several friends right now that have sable dogs in the ring, that are getting points. But no one that I know, not even the top handlers around here, are finishing a GSD in a weekend. 





> Remember all, a championship is attainable, just depends on how many shows you want to go to and how much money you want to spend. It's much more effective to have a dog that can finish in one weekend, than a dog that needs to be shown at multiple shows a year until it finally shows against lesser competition.


Not every dog is going to finish. I don't care how many shows you go to, and how much money you spend, you still have to get two majors (plus singles). I show wherever the numbers are, and sometimes I show against average dogs and sometimes I show against some really nice dogs. And sometimes we beat those really nice dogs. Yes, it would be nice and cost effective to get three 5 point majors in a weekend and finish my dog, but finding a show with entries that big is tough. I did recently go to a 4 day show in Louisiana that had majors every day. My girl took the 4 point major the first day, and ended the show with a major reserve on the last day. I would have loved to have gotten the major that last day and finished her, but it didn't happen. So, I enter shows, and see if any are majors...


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## DaniFani

dogfaeries said:


> As I've said many times before, we have lots of nice sable dogs showing around here. One of my good friends has a sable AKC Grand Champion. In fact I have several friends right now that have sable dogs in the ring, that are getting points. But no one that I know, not even the top handlers around here, are finishing a GSD in a weekend.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not every dog is going to finish. I don't care how many shows you go to, and how much money you spend, you still have to get two majors (plus singles). I show wherever the numbers are, and sometimes I show against average dogs and sometimes I show against some really nice dogs. And sometimes we beat those really nice dogs. Yes, it would be nice and cost effective to get three 5 point majors in a weekend and finish my dog, but finding a show with entries that big is tough. I did recently go to a 4 day show in Louisiana that had majors every day. My girl took the 4 point major the first day, and ended the show with a major reserve on the last day. I would have loved to have gotten the major that last day and finished her, but it didn't happen. So, I enter shows, and see if any are majors...


Are the sables you are seeing in the shows more patterned sables, dark, light, or all of the above?? In your opinion are they starting to show up more and more, or same as before? Now I'm curious. ;-)


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## dogfaeries

Both patterned sables and just sables. Mostly light. I've never seen the dark sable that is so popular these days.

Mostly dogs colored like Leroy Brown.


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## dogfaeries

I've only been showing my dogs for 3 years, and I always see sables in the ring.


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## HarleyTheGSD

Thank you all for the replies. I was just curious, something that has been on my mind for a while. I've seen light sables and patterned sables in ASL dogs. I've just never seen anything darker.
Though, I do believe that I recall a dark sable dog from the breeder I got Harley from ("pet lines"). Thanks for the insight!


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## Xeph

Here's some darker sables (all show lines)


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## Liesje

I guess I should have qualified my statement...*In the past 7 years or so*, the only ASL sables I've seen in the ring were lighter sables. I have seen one ASL "regular" sable at a club meeting, the dog was a lot like the last dog Jackie posted. Not light, but not really what I'd call a dark sable either (not that it matters). The sables I've seen in the ring that were darker or what I'd call dark were working lines. All the full WGSL sables I've seen were patterned red sables.


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## carmspack

"If you see an ASL sable its probably a patterned one and won't be that dark" 
don't agree - not what I saw when I was handling 
nor with this " The reason is that the black/tan is preferred and therefore is bred for."
the American show line breeders never had the agenda for colour , so you have blacks, bi-colours, black and tans and sables -- 
This has no basis at all "It's very very difficult to get the sable coat out of your breeding program once you allow it in". Since sable is a dominant gene , either parent needs to be sable. If you don't want sable , then only breed those progeny which are NOT sable. Only breed the black and tans . Simple. No surprises. 

"its much more difficult to get a championship on a sable (even with proper conformation) " -- totally not true . Not AMERICAN show line breeders. Not when you have (as an example) Ch. Lor-Lockes Tatta of Fran Jo , 1974 USA and Canadian Grand Victrix , clearly a sable .
There is no conformation title greater than that in American show line competition.

Acquaint yourself with one of the all time great producing "American" dogs KORY WALDESRUH and his siblings 

Korry of Waldesruh and his legacy , including Select Champion Ravenhaus Noah , CH Wynthea's Jonn


These dogs , all, at a time when WGSL had long become fanatic about black and red , no sables in sight.

Show me one American bred show line dog that was denied a title because of his colour being sable.

On the other hand I can show you a sable that should have placed higher , VA2 Timo vom Berrekasten , who was booed when placed in first positon (Fred Lanting report) 2X VA2 VA1(A) Timo vom Berrekasten

when west German show lines have been generations of black and reds , sable disappeared , sable a dominant gene, you can not have
"All the full WGSL sables I've seen were patterned red sables."

what you are seeing and calling sable are dogs with fading pigment .


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## martemchik

carmspack said:


> "If you see an ASL sable its probably a patterned one and won't be that dark"
> don't agree - not what I saw when I was handling
> nor with this " The reason is that the black/tan is preferred and therefore is bred for."
> the American show line breeders never had the agenda for colour , so you have blacks, bi-colours, black and tans and sables --
> This has no basis at all "It's very very difficult to get the sable coat out of your breeding program once you allow it in". Since sable is a dominant gene , either parent needs to be sable. If you don't want sable , then only breed those progeny which are NOT sable. Only breed the black and tans . Simple. No surprises.
> 
> "its much more difficult to get a championship on a sable (even with proper conformation) " -- totally not true . Not AMERICAN show line breeders. Not when you have (as an example) Ch. Lor-Lockes Tatta of Fran Jo , 1974 USA and Canadian Grand Victrix , clearly a sable .
> There is no conformation title greater than that in American show line competition.


When was the last time you handled?

And thank you for bringing a dog from 1974 into the discussion. That's clearly "today."


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## martemchik

dogfaeries said:


> As I've said many times before, we have lots of nice sable dogs showing around here. One of my good friends has a sable AKC Grand Champion. In fact I have several friends right now that have sable dogs in the ring, that are getting points. But no one that I know, not even the top handlers around here, are finishing a GSD in a weekend.
> 
> Not every dog is going to finish. I don't care how many shows you go to, and how much money you spend, you still have to get two majors (plus singles). I show wherever the numbers are, and sometimes I show against average dogs and sometimes I show against some really nice dogs. And sometimes we beat those really nice dogs. Yes, it would be nice and cost effective to get three 5 point majors in a weekend and finish my dog, but finding a show with entries that big is tough. I did recently go to a 4 day show in Louisiana that had majors every day. My girl took the 4 point major the first day, and ended the show with a major reserve on the last day. I would have loved to have gotten the major that last day and finished her, but it didn't happen. So, I enter shows, and see if any are majors...


I know they're there...but they're much rarer. And the ones I see are not even close to what would be considered "dark sable." Most of the ones I see are lighter than my boy and he's what I would consider a regular sable.

I know the dogs are there, people are mixing in the German blood into their lines and getting the darker dogs. But as of now, I don't see that many. Considering how large of a percentage sable is of working lines, and the fact that it is the dominant allele, you should be seeing way more of them in the American show ring, but you're not. You're seeing a very small percentage of American show dogs being sable...and with all the information we have about the sable color, you should see more. Therefore its pretty easy to make the connection that American breeders DO breed for color and choose to not breed to sable dogs. Last year at our regional specialty show, out of the 30 or so dogs and bitches that were there, maybe 2 were sable and I think there was one black.

BTW I've heard this from American breeders within the last 3 years at my club, its not that they won't breed to sables, but all things being equal, they'll stick with black and tan. And these are fairly successful breeders that produce champion dogs.

As for the finishing within a weekend...yes its pretty hard these days.


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## Freestep

I have seen dark sable dogs in the AKC ring, but not for a long time. Pity.


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## dogfaeries

I currently show in Oklahoma, Texas, Louisiana, Arkansas, Kansas and Missouri. I see sables every time I show. And yes they are the lighter sables of the ASL, because that is what the ASL sables are. Frankly most ASL breeders _aren't_ crossing their dogs with the working lines, so you aren't going to see more dark sable crop up. 

I don't know anyone that is breeding for color, or _away_ from a color. Everyone wants good dark pigment, and doesn't want a washed out looking dog. Every GSD in the ring is not a black and tan. I show against solid black, bi-color, sable, the very occasional black and red. I'd take a sable in a heartbeat to show. There are sables all over the place in the pedigrees of my ASL show dogs. Carly's grandsire and great grandsire (the great Leroy Brown) were sables, as well as many of the bitches on her dam's side. My breeder has shown sables, has finished sables, has bred sables, loves sables, just doesn't have sables right now.

Hey Jackie! Are you seeing a different thing in your part of the country?


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## carmspack

there were some very successful , very dark sables coming out of von Trommels -- a kennel that I admired and followed https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=508682-trommels-ivan-of-berlindale

Interested because of his use of Bodo Grafental.
His dogs were used by guide dog breeding programmes.

I knew Han of the Dutch Hill kennels in Manitoba who used von Trommel dogs , owning Trommel's Iwan Dutch Hill , dark sable , Champion, and his son https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=602089-dutch-hills-encore 

I sent a female to him to breed - sort of a last chance to get that close to some of those old DDR genetics.

that brings us to about 2005

this "And thank you for bringing a dog from 1974 into the discussion" regardless what you said could not be done was DONE , can't go better than this .


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## Mikelia

Xeph, the second dog you posted is Eros, I LOVED that dog. 
I was raised around strictly ASL gsds and there are quite a few sables that are shown. I do not know of any breeder that avoids using sables in their lines - it is more about conformation. 
Eros - eros 1999 Futurity Victor and did very well in his show career
baby Gibbs Kaixstella took best male baby puppy at the GSDCA nationals 2013
Kat - katara she has done exceptionally well in the show ring, and is still a baby
These are just a few, all from the same web page and what I could easily find in 5 minutes on my lunch break. Yes there are more black and tan showlines but at this years national there was a TON of black dogs, a few sables and some bicolours.


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## carmspack

it has never been an issue with American show breeders ! nice examples -- , side gait is the focus .


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## HarleyTheGSD

Xeph said:


> Here's some darker sables (all show lines)


Thank you for posting pictures. I see that it's definitely possible.


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## Xeph

> you should be seeing way more of them in the American show ring


And what do you base this on? The fact that sable is a DOMINANT gene makes it EASY to breed out or "avoid". There are plenty of sables that show in my area, including a beautiful dark sable coated bitch that has a couple of points already.



> baby Gibbs Kaixstella took best male baby puppy at the GSDCA nationals 2013


I think you mean GSDCC 

I've been looking for a sable boy to breed to Wesson. My issue isn't finding a sable dog...it's finding a sable dog that right for my bitch.

Darker sables are definitely more than possible. Are you ever going to get a BLACK sable from ASLs? No. But you can get more than light patterned sables.

Here's another one









And there are more going farther back. That said, it can be hard to tell because the pictures are black and white/greyscale


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## mharrisonjr26

Xeph said:


> Here's some darker sables (all show lines)


Me personally I dont consider these dogs dark sable at all.


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## onyx'girl

I don't like the way dogs are stacked like the above. It really isn't flattering at all. There is no muscletone~ other than the second photo, that dog looks in good working shape. 

Even if the dog shows ribs(lean) it just looks like a fluffy loose skinned dog with a small head in comparison to the chest.


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## mharrisonjr26

I dont mean to change the subject but can someone explain to me why the HECK the ASL people stack the animals that way.?


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## carmspack

tell me how it is different than dogs stacked here Welcome to Eurosport K9 - Eurosport K-9 Training and Import Services - Josef Mravik homepage


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## Xeph

> I don't like the way dogs are stacked like the above. It really isn't flattering at all. There is no muscletone~ other than the second photo, that dog looks in good working shape.


I thought this was a discussion on color, not stacking preferences.

You would have to have your hands on a lot of these animals to judge muscletone. Saying there is none is ridiculous. The bitch in the 3rd picture was a Grand Victrix...you don't get a top honor like that with a flabby out of shape animal.


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## dogfaeries

/rant alert

OMG guys. Why does a discussion about sables in the AKC show ring have to turn into an angulation/stacking "discussion"? When someone posts a photo of a working line dog stacked, I don't jump in and talk about how stilted and stiff and awkward it looks to me. And it _does_ look that way to me. But I don't feel the need to talk about it every time someone shows a stacked working line dog. We get it. "Everyone" hates the stack. We are still going to stack our dogs in the show ring and for show photos.

As for the photos, if I were to post a photo of my Russell stacked, I'm sure I would get the same criticism of him. Loose, furry, no muscle tone. But if you ran your hands over him you would feel the muscles in that dog. He runs ALL THE TIME. Photos can be deceiving. 

I swear I've gotten to the point that I don't want to post photos of my ASL dogs, because of the anti-ASL sentiment. I look at every cute photo of my dogs with a critical eye. I've been beaten up over more than one photo of my dogs. So I don't post photos, except puppy photos. 

/end rant


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## SuperG

dogfaeries said:


> /rant alert
> 
> 
> I swear I've gotten to the point that I don't want to post photos of my ASL dogs, because of the anti-ASL sentiment. I look at every cute photo of my dogs with a critical eye. I've been beaten up over more than one photo of my dogs. So I don't post photos, except puppy photos.
> 
> /end rant


Your dog is proficient in ASL ??? American Sign Language ....WOW !!! And I thought I was getting somewhere just teaching my pooch to fluff my socks first before she shreds them. By the way, shredded socks make excellent dental doggy floss.


SuperG


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## dogfaeries

Well, Russell _IS_ a pretty smart boy.


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## onyx'girl

My comment wasn't about ASL's, but the way the dogs look in those stacks. Don't take what I posted personally, it was just my opinion. The chests/body look out of proportion to the size of the head. I bet if the head and neck wasn't so upright the chest wouldn't be the focus? I don't know....just my opinion. The third photo...the dogs ears are flipped back at the tips.


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## carmspack

another sable making it to the top GV Aspen of Fran Jo .


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## martemchik

carmspack said:


> another sable making it to the top GV Aspen of Fran Jo .


An EXTREMELY patterned sable...in 1980.


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## Xeph

> The third photo...the dogs ears are flipped back at the tips.


They were probably taped.


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## Castlemaid

I love browsing the board, I'm always learning new stuff! Those sables you posted Xeph are pretty cool! I wouldn't call them dark sables either, but they do have very nice pigmentation. When I pictured ASL sables, I always had a vision of more washed out patterned sables - these dogs have awesome coats! Agree too, that they look in good shape. 

I'm also tired of all the ASL bashing on this board. You can find good and bad examples in any line, there really is a gang-up on the show-line mentality here. 
If it gets really bad, we might have to make a no-show-line bashing rule, and send out warnings!


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## carmspack

1980 GV CH (US) Aspen of Fran-Jo

you think that is extremely patterned sable? this is SG Alk vom Osterburg Quell

I knew Aspen and Lonnie Fran Jo .


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## carmspack

don't know if I provided a visual for Kheigh Deigh , so here he is CH (US) Holiday's Kheigh Deigh


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## martemchik

Not sure if our definitions are off but my idea of a patterned sable is one where a sable coat is in the pattern of a saddle. So Aspen matches that definition. Alk just looks like a dark sable to me...not sure where the "pattern" part comes in.


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## JakodaCD OA

Xeph posted some gorgeous dogs And I to, get sick of the asl bashing, gets old ya know?

Anyhoo, back in the day when I was diving into the show ring, there were a few sables around here, I don't recall them being really dark, probably not even as dark as the ones in the pictures Xeph posted.

Brownhill (kennel), in my neck of the woods, has always had alot of really nice sables (again not dark dark), and has been quite successful in the conformation ring, ASL conformation ring. that is.


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## onyx'girl

Xeph said:


> They were probably taped.


Why were they taped?

FWIW, again, I was not bashing ASL's! I was commenting on the stack. And the question by mharrisonjr26 was never answered on_ why_ they are stacked that way. What is it showing exactly?


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## onyx'girl

I bet the dogs in the above photos would look darker if the undercoat was not fluffed....most of the sables who have a tan undercoat look much darker when it's not heavy. I think they have nice color, regardless.


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## Xeph

> Why were they taped?


Many people do prophylactic taping. I cannot say for sure if hers were or were not. She wasn't my dog. I will say I saw Cookie *in person* in 2006 and she was a VERY dark girl! Honestly, in person, I think many here would have appreciated her color.

And yes, Jane, you are correct. If not fluffed out, the sables will show their natural darker color. Blowing the dogs out exposes their undercoat (which as you can see is often reddish) and makes them look lighter.



> What is it showing exactly?


It's a matter of style in AKC. Showing off length and arch of neck (if you let the dog lean forward, you lose length of neck), showing shoulder layback, accentuating the high wither. I'm sure there are some tricks being had to hide certain faults as well (changing how you stack the rear will alter the appearance of the croup, for example).

I apologize for being so defensive.

Here are two pictures of Loch, one blown out after a bath, and one of him ungroomed


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## onyx'girl

Is high withers good or bad? I asked for a 'perfect' type of critique on a fb page, and got some flack because of course no dog is perfect. The standard doesn't say this or that like a critique would. Even without showing a photo of a dog, I'd like to read an imaginary perfect critique. Though, I know....it is always up to the opinion and interpretation of the person critiquing!


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## dogfaeries

At our last GSD club meeting, we decided to bring in a couple of AKC champions, put them up on a table, and then critique them. We have a lot of members that don't show in conformation, so it was fun to see their take on the dogs. We have a member who is an AKC judge, so it was very very informative. My bitch Carly was one of the dogs that was critiqued, and the other was a champion bitch of the judge. The two bitches are different from each other, and both have GCh points as well. After the champions, we critiqued a 6 month old puppy, and my girl Sage. 

It was a pretty cool experience. I got to tell the judge the comments that I've heard about both of my bitches, and get her take on them. When the weather gets warmer, we are going to another member's house and discuss movement. I can't wait for that one, since it's Carly's strong suit.


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## Xeph

High withers are good. Flat withers are not. I have way too many "pet peeves" to list. I can't even pick a structural thing that bothers me "most", because there are all sorts of thing that bug me


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## dogfaeries

Toplines drive me out of my mind. It better darn well be straight.


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## Xeph

Flat withers, arched backs, bat ears, crappy feet, dirty rears, extreme tuck ups, super dry dogs (no hair)...those are my big ones. Shepherds should have hair. They don't need to be Yetis, but it's a GSD, not a Malinois

Combine an extreme tuck up with an arched back and no coat, and it's a giant NOPE!


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## dogfaeries

Xeph said:


> Combine an extreme tuck up with an arched back and no coat, and it's a giant NOPE!


Yikes, you are scaring me with that one!


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## dogfaeries

IMO Russell has a crappy ear set. Too relaxed and he looks like a donkey. He can pull them up if he's alert, but those big ol' ears bug me.


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## Rbeckett

My able comes from Show lines in the US and her mother is from Canadian show lines too. My second GSD is coated and comes from East German border stock and the same Father as my Sable.. So sable is not necessarily indicative of a region as much as a result of breeding...

Wheelchair Bob


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## Xeph

> Yikes, you are scaring me with that one!


I can find you plenty of pictures with animals like that


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## martemchik

Just to make a point...how do I know black/tan is preferred? Look at the breed ring at Westminster, the top dogs in the country, and not a single one is sable. No one can tell me that the top dogs (breeders) don't avoid sable on purpose...


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## carmspack

the American / Canadian GSD show crowd tends to take its cues from the results of specialty shows , especially the show to end the year - the annual National Specialty where a Grand Victor / Grand Victrix is crowned . 

In Canada it happened to be a solid black GV CAN SEL CH Billyjo's Man In Black - (sister?) going Best of Opposite.
His mother also a GVX , progeny of a sable , progeny of a sable.

If there is a deliberate avoidance of sable these dogs would never have been implemented in a top flight breeding program.


here is your USA equivalent "Megabucks" 



 -- a big dog ! but don't mind the movement -- balanced , dogs moving away from the extreme of recent years and looking more like the dogs in the early 80's (as per Review, Red Books, etc) GV AM/CAN SEL EX CH Woodsides Megabucks


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## dogfaeries

martemchik said:


> Just to make a point...how do I know black/tan is preferred? Look at the breed ring at Westminster, the top dogs in the country, and not a single one is sable. No one can tell me that the top dogs (breeders) don't avoid sable on purpose...


Just because there are no sables that came to Westminster this year, doesn't mean "top" breeders aren't breeding sables. _You_ might know someone that doesn't like sables, but that doesn't mean that "No one can tell me that the top dogs (breeders) don't avoid sable on purpose...". I don't know why you are so adamant to "prove" top breeders don't breed sables. It's just not true.


AM/CAN Ch. Ranita's I'll Have Another is a sable bitch that got a Group placement LAST WEEK. 

Sergio Espejo shows A LOT of sables. Has for years.

Laurie Jeff Greer is breeding sables. One her sable puppies went Best Puppy at the Dallas GSD specialty last month.

I could keep typing names of sable dogs that are out there showing and winning, but I guess unless they were standing in the ring at Westminster this morning, then I'm just imagining things.


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## dogfaeries

dogfaeries said:


> AM/CAN Ch. Ranita's I'll Have Another is a sable bitch that got a Group placement LAST WEEK.


This particular bitch's dam is a sable (GCH Ranitas Princes Of Zyeata), and her sire just happens to be a full brother to Fritz, that took Breed today at Westminster. (Ch. Wolf Creek Phoenix of Merivern ROM)

I would consider the Wolf Creek Merivern dogs to be from top breeders. Fritz's full sister Am.& Can.Sel.Ch. Wolf Creek Kallie of Merivern is a sable.


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## dogfaeries

I'm done. I'm tired of typing. I'm going to go eat Mediterranean food, and then watch the Groups tonight.


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## dogfaeries

Okay, Im back.

I just wanted to add that "Fritz" today's Best of Breed winner at Westminster, SELECT #2 GCH Wolf Creek Galaxy Of Merivern, has a sable mother, sable grandmother, sable great-grandmother, and sable great great grandmother. These are Tazzman and Woodside bitches.

Okay, I'm seriously done beating this horse. I'm going to start seeing sables in my sleep....


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## carmspack

exactly . thank you dogfaeries .


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## dogfaeries

thank you, Carmen.


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## mharrisonjr26

I remember some years ago, I saw a nice sable in a dog show on espn. I cant remember the name, but that was a beautiful dog and the first time I saw a sable on tv. Maybe around early 2000s.


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## dogfaeries

Could've been Ch. Windwalker's Leroy Brown. He was a multiple Best in Show winner, Award of Excellence winner.


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## mharrisonjr26

dogfaeries said:


> Could've been Ch. Windwalker's Leroy Brown. He was a multiple Best in Show winner, Award of Excellence winner.


 Definitely possible, actually probable. He had a very dark mask and he was a gray patternend sable with good pigment.


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