# working a dog in defense???



## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

sooo I went to see some people that I trained with when Anna was a baby, and they did something's that I didn't really agree with, just out of curiosity, what age would you/have you worked a dog defensively or "civil" I think I've hear it called? 

The decoy argued with me and said thy raise police dogs and will start training this way at an early age, I just thought that sounded wrong 


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

IMO a puppy with good genetics, can be brought up balanced. I personally don't like working puppies/young dogs only in prey. Keeping everything age appropriate is key.


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## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

mycobraracr said:


> IMO a puppy with good genetics, can be brought up balanced. I personally don't like working puppies/young dogs only in prey. Keeping everything age appropriate is key.


How did you work the puppy in defense? I've had a few people tell me that in IPO you don't want a defensive dog because its gets them in to trouble (not sure what that means) and my girl is 10 months old and up until that day I have never had any one say something negative about her, I don't really want to post who the trainer was because I don't want them to look bad 

But basically I went out there to see one of them and to do a session of bitework, they asked me what is like to do with her and I said I'd like to work on introducing her to stick hits and the whip because she has only seen it a few times.....

He told me he wanted Anna to focus on him and not the sleeve so he threw it on the ground (Anna will always focus on the sleeve because she has been trained to do so, she's an IPO dog not a police dog) and basically he back tied my puppy and whipped her, with a whip agitating her with no sleeve until she was SO MAD that when she finally did get a bite she bit the inside of her mouth and blood was pouring out. 

After all this he proceeds to tell me that's dog has bad grips (which she 100% DOES NOT) and that I will never make it above club level with her because she genetically didn't have it.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

There are a lot of trainers like that...they truly do test the dog. I just wouldn't go back. You seem to be in it for the fun/sport so there's no need to push your dog to those limits, especially at that age.

High defense...will cause weaker grips. What you want is a dog that barks in defense (lots of power, deep barks) and then switches into prey for the bite. It should happen very quickly...

A good helper will work the dog in the respective drives in order to get what you want out of the dog. So a dog that's more prey...should gradually be transitioned into defense. To teach it (during training) that it can work in both. A dog that's more defensive, needs to be taught to work in prey.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Liz&Anna said:


> He told me he wanted Anna to focus on him and not the sleeve so he threw it on the ground (Anna will always focus on the sleeve because she has been trained to do so, she's an IPO dog not a police dog) and basically he back tied my puppy and whipped her, with a whip agitating her with no sleeve until she was SO MAD that when she finally did get a bite she bit the inside of her mouth and blood was pouring out.
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


IPO is not about focusing on a sleeve. It's sad that people seem to think so. 

Whipping her until she was mad is very wrong! I sent you a PM.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

I'm so sorry that happened to Anna. You must be upset.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

mycobraracr said:


> IPO is not about focusing on a sleeve. It's sad that people seem to think so.
> 
> Whipping her until she was mad is very wrong! I sent you a PM.


This. I have seen the club around here work and they will throw the sleeve on the ground and stand still until the dog reacts to the helper then its quick to the sleeve and they jump around and make it fun and eventually tbe wups get to bite the sleeve. 

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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

Just don't go to the decoy if he isn't in line with your training goals. 

With that said there's nothing more unimpressive than a dog with a high pitched bark in the bark and hold. Or just high pitched bark in general.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

I love Anna's bark.


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

Big difference between a whiny bark wanting the sleeve and a bark wanting to intimidate the decoy.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

She's a puppy...


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

We all know a 10 month puppy has a deep bark. Also a deep bark doesn't mean the dog is working in defense. 

Sounds like excuses. Plus the OP wants her dog to concentrate solely on the sleeve so it's OK. Different strokes for different folks.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

We are all here to learn..


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I'm not commenting on the OP's dog. From what I've seen, the dog shows enthusiasm for the work at this point. For a frame of reference, this is a video from 2 weeks ago of my little girl. Listen to the different barks as the helper switches her between drives. Now this dog, I call my "house dog". I don't consider to be a stand out dog or anything extraordinary. That being said, she is a blast to work, does everything I ask of her and seems to enjoy it. She goes everywhere with me, lives inside and is a great snuggler on the couch. 

Kimber 8.5 months old - YouTube


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

There is a dog at my club that will bite you for real and barks like he sucked in half a tank of helium.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> There is a dog at my club that will bite you for real and barks like he sucked in half a tank of helium.


A mal? Every mal I have ever worked has a crappy bark.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Nope GSD, he is a prey monkey for sure. Very hard to put in defense and even when you really push him his bark changes minutely. 

Costs his handler who has been to the worlds points everytime. 

Have a Mal here to that drops the sleeve and heads for the decoy after a slip, same deal. High pitchy bark..lol.


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

My girl is very much in defense/fight drive when I am working her. However she was started as a nearly five year old dog and her personality is extremely serious. She only now is starting to get a more high pitched bark and starts screaming when we head out to the field to work. It has been an interesting road to try and bring the prey drive up. She has it in other avenues, however, she takes the job seriously when it comes to protection, and I know she would bite someone if push came to shove. 

My puppy I am kind of dabbling in getting him into bitework going from an opposite frame. Still a challenge since I got him at five months, basically untouched, but he is one smart little guy. It has already started out differently for me. The trainer I work with strives for a balanced dog, regardless of what you plan to do with them. However there is no doubt what Leia's focus is on. Only way she holds the sleeve after it's dropped is if we either run after the trainer or I run around him in a circle so that she can watch him. 

Just so you know, just because a dog works in defense doesn't mean that it causes problems.  Leia is my most social dog out of the three that I own, and I know that she is trustworthy to behave herself around people and other dogs. She literally had people walking over her the other day when we were eating on the patio of a pub downtown. Nothing more than a brief glance as they passed by. A good balance is nice IMO. But you can't always judge a dog by its cover lol. Heck, the other day I fell onto my face and Leia didn't drop the bite while I peeled myself off of the grass. >>

However I definitely don't think that man was right in what he did. Here's hoping that it won't translate into the next time that she works. Ugh. I would have been rather furious myself. Not all trainers are created equal. Its why I am stumped on what to do right now since the trainer I work with has moved upstate for the next two years. He says he will try to come down once a month but at the same time its only once a month lol. We had been doing at least once if not twice a week.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Liz~ Best thing you can do right now is stick with one helper for your girl.. The one that will build her up/tab into her drives the correct way..


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## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

simba405 said:


> Just don't go to the decoy if he isn't in line with your training goals.
> 
> With that said there's nothing more unimpressive than a dog with a high pitched bark in the bark and hold. Or just high pitched bark in general.


First off- IM FINE WITH HER BARK- she's my dog and I really don't care if you don't like the sound she makes


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## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

glowingtoadfly said:


> I love Anna's bark.


Lol, thank you, 

I just figured every dog was different and they mature there own way, I have no issue with the fact that she works in prey, she loves to work and to me that's what matters 


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## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

I was only wondering if this was normal, and if this was a normal age to do something like that, all this being said- Anna DID NOT back down even after being pulled away from me and whipped by a large man that she didn't know, she didn't shut down or turn away (which surprised me, but then again I'm surprised by everything she does) 


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Liz&Anna said:


> I was only wondering if this was normal, and if this was a normal age to do something like that, all this being said- Anna DID NOT back down even after being pulled away from me and whipped by a large man that she didn't know, she didn't shut down or turn away (which surprised me, but then again I'm surprised by everything she does)
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


It's not the my preferred way, or many other's preferred way of getting the defense out, but people do it. To do it the first time you see a dog is questionable, but again, people do it. I'm assuming this guy probably thought this was maybe a one time deal to see what the dog has and that you were probably not going to keep going back to him?

I have a bitch who's prey drive was murdered...to the point that at the age of three she would basically practice avoidance when a flirt pole was presented and played with. It took me about 4 months to finally get her to start playing tug with me, and about that amount of time for my helper to figure out what to do with her. He did end up pinching her and pissing her off to get her defensive, get her to recognize the toy, and then take that frustration and move it onto the toy and then into prey and a bite.

My male...who started at 3.5 years old. He was taught not to bite people (like all normal dogs) and my helper did notice the focus on the sleeve. He wanted it to move to the helper so slowly but surely there was whipping and pissing off of the dog until he stopped guarding the toy and started guarding the man. It wasn't really bad, both my dogs could take it. But none of this was done the first time the helpers saw the dogs.

10 months...she's not that young anymore. But I do question when a helper is that forward with a new dog. Just doesn't make any sense to test a dog to that level without finding out more about the dog that's not coming from the biased mouth of the owner/handler (sorry, we all do it lol).


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

I had a male once who would only work in defense in ScH. On his home turf, he had plenty of prey, but on the field, he was 100% defense, which is stressful for a dog. I was always amazed that our helper would trust him on long bites but he always hit the sleeve & stayed calm in the grip.

Only one helper was ever able to get any prey out of him in his life--Anne Kent, when she did a seminar at my place. And did she ever have to work for it, but she got it. That's skill.

I envied the people with the prey monkeys--less liability to worry about.

Eventually, I decided to take him out of ScH.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Any helper that must attack a 10 month old puppy with a whip should have the whip taken out of their hand and beaten with it. It shows a total lack of talent. 

Your dog is very young. I do not care for sleeve focused dogs so I tend to wait until they are mature enough to use all of their drives. LB has had only a few bites in her year of life. The genetics are there so we wait until the brain catches up. 

Zetti, there aren't many out there with Anne's talent.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Ty has a bark that sounds so very high pitched. I am actually surprised my manly looking dog can sound like that..

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## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

yes, a one time deal with this helper, although I think it stressed me more then her, she is my first working dog so every day I'm learning new things, so you can imagine my surprise to what was happening. I have a few friend who do IPO here where I live and they yelled at me and lectured me about the session when I told them what the helper did, which was really my reason for the post, wondering if this training method was normal. I feel like allot of dogs would shut down in a situation like this. My friend said "congratulations you may have just really messed up your puppy" (we had training with my normal guy yesterday and I can tell you she was not messed up in any way thank god)


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## Jarkko (Feb 7, 2013)

Just a general question: what's wrong in using whip? It's just used for making the dog focus on the helper, it's not hurting the dog or anything like that. Some helpers might of course do it (make the dog angry) without a whip, just by "being there", but in the end, what's the difference?

Some dogs have very high threshold for defence (they basically need a real threat until they learn "the game"), so they need to be pushed a little bit. For example, my dog is very hectic kind of dog, very high prey drive, mad for the sleeve. He really need to be switched to defence, because otherwise he basically trashes himself completely in a minute. Too much lactic acid, too much everything, not listening anymore, not learning anymore. It's not productive at all. With this very high threshold, he needs a "real" signal for switching to defence. And yes, that might involve whipping, how much, depends on the helper. But in the end, the goal is to switch him off the prey and in the end the "drive state" of the dog is the same, no matter how it was achieved.

This is not hurting, it's just to make the dog pissed off with a little bit of intimidating!

About the only bad thing about whip I can think of is the sound. Some dogs might get very reactive to the snapping sound.

Of course there is the question that is this kind of a dog (the kind that needs strong signals) suitable for the sport? I guess it would be better to have a dog that explodes easily to real aggression? Or is it so that dog who needs "whipping" is not really balanced and has too much prey drive?

For example, this puppy seems to be genetically very balanced: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aM-HAEZrhS8

LOL, that 18-weeks pup is much better in the sport than my 18-months old


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## Kyndaara (Mar 3, 2014)

First of all--be careful what you ask for. Second, you don't like how someone is relating to your dog--stop it. Third, before you hand your dog over, make sure you know specifically what they intend to do with it and that you agree with it. 

Terrasita


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Anna sounds like a good dog.


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## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

Kyndaara said:


> First of all--be careful what you ask for. Second, you don't like how someone is relating to your dog--stop it. Third, before you hand your dog over, make sure you know specifically what they intend to do with it and that you agree with it.
> 
> Terrasita


You don't always question trainers in bitework, I'm new, and when I first started working Anna I had doubts about everything and wondered why they did anything they did, the only thing 2 trainers agree on is what the third one is doing wrong.... That being said this was just a question as to weather training this way was normal, I've never seen it before, buuuut like I said ^^^ I'm new to every bit of this 


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## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

robk said:


> Anna sounds like a good dog.


Thank you!!! She's a beast, she's getting stronger, and faster, every time she's worked. All the people from the clubs around me and the people who have seen her work say they can't wait to see how she matures. 


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Liz&Anna said:


> You don't always question trainers in bitework, I'm new, and when I first started working Anna I had doubts about everything and wondered why they did anything they did, the only thing 2 trainers agree on is what the third one is doing wrong.... That being said this was just a question as to weather training this way was normal, I've never seen it before, buuuut like I said ^^^ I'm new to every bit of this
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Thus the reason to ask questions. You should try to understand the why's and what fors to be the best handler you can be. To trust the helper blindly can go really, really well, or bite bigtime.
To be fair to your dog, ask *before* the session begins, what you'll be working on, and communicate during the session if the plan changes up. Consistency with one helper is best when the dog and handler are learning.


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