# Clicker questions



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

*A question for clicker advocates* - How exactly does using a clicker to mark (prolong the very brief period in which a dog can associate the behavior (or lack of it) with the reward for that behavior?

*Related question* - how would using a clicker "increase a dog's confidence"? Good behavior followed by a real reward would increase their confidence perhaps but the "marker"?

Actually, using a verbal marker "YES" works just as well as an artificial sound made by a mechanical device to "mark" the proper behavioral action by the dog.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I don't understand your first question because of the unclosed parenthetical statement. 

For your second question- a clicker _doesn't_ increase confidence in the dog. However, the immediate, clear marking of a performed behavior does increase confidence because it provides clarity. This is something that a verbal marker can't do as well as a clicker can.



codmaster said:


> Actually, using a verbal marker "YES" *works just as well *as an artificial sound made by a mechanical device to "mark" the proper behavioral action by the dog.


Actually- you're wrong. Try _actually reading_ this article.
http://www.clickertraining.com/files/Wood_Lindsay_CLICKER_BRIDGING_STIMULUS_EFFICACY.pdf

...Or at least read this excerpt from it:


> The clicker trained dogs achieved behavior acquisition in significantly (p < .05) fewer minutes and required significantly fewer primary reinforcements than verbal condition dogs. The difference in effectiveness of the two bridging stimuli was most apparent at the onset of each new task component. It appears that use of the clicker, by providing a more precise marker than a verbal bridging stimulus, is responsible for superior acquisition of complex behaviors such as that studied here.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

I agree with Willy

I've always done clicker training with my dogs with great results. In Delgado's puppy class we used a clicker, but I switched trainers for his beginner obedience and they used the verbal marker "yes" instead of the clicker so I tried it out for the six week class and hated it. He would get confused very easily on new behaviors using the verbal marker and was much slower to respond

There was another dog in the class the same age which had done their program with the verbal marker and they were a great couple with lots of potential but there was a marked difference between the two dogs. Their dog was very smart and willing to please but couldn't match Delgado for speed and accuracy when it came to learning new cues

I would use the verbal marker in class then do it again with the clicker at home. Delgado's very smart and the clicker suits both of us.

There are certainly times it's misused and some people just can't figure it out and do better with verbal markers. Work with what works for you, not others


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

codmaster said:


> Actually, using a verbal marker "YES" works just as well as an artificial sound made by a mechanical device to "mark" the proper behavioral action by the dog.


It works but is not the same. Karen Pryor who is sort of the face of clicker training would disagree. A click *is* different than a marker word.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Clicker advocate? My only experience with this tool was at my puppy's basic manners course this spring. My timing wasn't what it should have been, and my trainer was anti-everything else, so I didn't give it the respect it deserved. However, to tech my puppy to drop the ball on recall, this tool ROCKED! The click that was instantaneous with the moment the ball fell from his mouth taught him that behavior right away. For me to say a marker word at that same time would have been a distraction, I believe.

Now, to try to repeat that same success outdoors didn't work. I was using the 2 ball technique and for some reason my puppy wanted to hear "Good boy!" after the drop. Why? I don't know, but you could tell by how much enthusiasm he gave the game what it was he wanted. Click with treat, so-so performance / praise only, full-on attention. I think he didn't want the interruption, just the game to continue. No time for treats, lol?

I think that the tool you choose to use has to fit you, your dog, what you're trying to teach, and also fits with the situation. And if you don't want to use the clicker then you don't use it. But I think it's wrong to write it off or think that a marker word is an exact substitute. This is only my opinion, based on my limited knowledge and very limited skill with the tool.

Not talking dogs for a moment: I just bought a great picture and I know exactly where I want it. Unfortunately, my favorite tool is the hammer. I know just by looking at the wall that there isn't a stud where the nail will go. So if I just go ahead and do it my way, the picture will pull the nail out of the drywall and smash to the floor. So instead I'm going to drill a pilot hole, set the plastic anchor, and take a whole lot more time to make sure the picture stays where I want it. This reasoning should also apply to our dogs: observe and decide what would give the best outcome, favorite tool or not.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

wildo said:


> I don't understand your first question because of the unclosed parenthetical statement.
> 
> For your second question- a clicker _doesn't_ increase confidence in the dog. However, the immediate, clear marking of a performed behavior does increase confidence because it provides clarity. This is something that a verbal marker can't do as well as a clicker can.
> 
> ...


*I must apologize for my missing parenthesis - I can see where that typo might really make it very hard to understand my question for some folks. *

*I guess that my question might have been a little too hard for you to understand.*

*So let's see if I can simplify it for you. *

*First, though, I will try to explain what I meant by the tough part that you were unable to understand - "Mark" = to signify to the dog that they did something correct. I.E. they do the behavior of sitting in response to a verbal and/or visual signal. *

*Now, let's see - do you understand what I meant by this statment? Let's assume that you could understand.*

*The next part of my statment, probably the more difficult part for you from your post, was that the trainer might want the dog to NOT do some behavior or to STOP doing some behavior (I.E. barking or lunging for example) so WHEN they stop doing this behavior (thus the "lack of the behavior") then we "Mark" the behavior cessation and reward accordingly.*

*I really hope that you can understand my questiuon now. (Even if you don't want to or can't answer it. That is ok, I understand.*


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Liesje said:


> It works but is not the same. Karen Pryor who is sort of the face of clicker training would disagree. A click *is* different than a marker word.


 
Not according to most other pro trainers that I have talked to.

You don't suppose that Karen just might have a small vested interest in maintaining the sanctity of using "Clickers" do you. I would really prefer to hear about it from someone who doesn't have such a big financial interest in clicker training. 

But in the interst of fairness, what does she say is the real difference? does she claim that a Click is not a marker bridge to the reward but the dog actually thinks that the Click IS the reward for good behavior? Or if not that what is the difference?

Do you have to have a clicker to train your dog - i.e. if you forget the clicker no sense to even try to do any training that session?


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

codmaster said:


> Do you have to have a clicker to train your dog - i.e. if you forget the clicker no sense to even try to do any training that session?


Sigh.... You're always so over the top in the statements/questions you ask about clicker training. This has been asked by you in the past, and answered plenty. Nobody has said that they can't train their dog because they forgot their clicker at home. Unless you are truly so hard headed that you just don't get it, it's a ludicrous agenda that you continue to try to push- that one cannot train without a clicker if it was somehow "forgotten at home."

You have reinforced us (me at least) to already anticipate your response. I should have known you wouldn't bother to open your mind and actually hear what people have to say on the subject. And look- you didn't even need a clicker to train us (me) with your anticipated behavior. Props to you.


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## Woof_Terrorist (Aug 3, 2012)

I prefer my voice commands to clicker. Its about training and conditioning. 

Yes speedo shaves off microseconds in swim speed.... but how many of us are going to compete in the Olympics?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Any training in which the dog is successful and able to understand what is expected of it - and learn/please it's owner is confidence building.

Many people give up or think a method has failed because they've misused it or have done it incorrectly. 

In our ACO training class we were actually given a bowl of hershey kisses. Another person decided what "behavior" they'd like to see the other person do. They then clicked and rewarded (hershey kisses) when the other party got it right. 

For instance. Touch your ear. So the other person would start moving around and if a hand got close to the ear, a click/reward. Through that, the other person was supposed to figure out where the hand was supposed to go. The success of the other person learning where that hand was supposed to go was directly related to the speed and accuracy of the person clicking and rewarding. 

If you think about it...the perfect training system (without a click) is a sink where the water is motion activated. 
You stick your hand there. Nothing happens. You start moving your hand around, and boom! There's water! Reward! So we try to recreate the situation to get more water. 
Same exact thing. We're moving our hands around trying to get the water to start and actually stay going! We catch on very quickly, don't we? 

It's simple. 
Same with dogs. They are rewarded for doing the right thing (the thing we're teaching them) and doing the wrong thing gets ignored. The click marks where they are starting to "get warm" and then when they are "hot", jackpot!!

Cod, are you just bored today...??


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

wildo said:


> I don't understand your first question because of the unclosed parenthetical statement.
> 
> For your second question- a clicker _doesn't_ increase confidence in the dog. However, the immediate, clear marking of a performed behavior does increase confidence because it provides clarity. This is something that a verbal marker can't do as well as a clicker can.
> 
> ...


*OK, so I have read it, at least as much of the article as I could.*

*wildo - Have YOU read that entire "study" article? It sounds like a freshman research project.*

*A whole bunch of red flags jump out at anyone who has the least amount of knowledge and/or experience in the science of research.*

*Among them - who are the researchers themselves? I read about the dogs that were used but I didn't see anything about the folks doing the research. Maybe I didn't read far enough but i didn't see any bio/dog training experience, background in clicker use, etc. about any of them. That would be interesting to see.*

*The authors definitly did seem to be much in favor of Clicker training - quoting many things to back it up. HOWEVER, there was a BIG lack of a balanced approach to those who favored a balanced approach or even those who indicated that verbal markers also worked.*

*The dog subjects were picked from a shelter and had been there a week or so - and were mixed breeds, at least the vast majority were -- very representative of the dogs that most serious trainers use, don't you think? *

*One of the dogs selected was 12 weeks old - don't suppose that might make a difference*

*Plus consider - do you think that someones own dog might be just A LITTLE BIT more tuned in to their owners voice than a dog picked up from a shelter who has been in the shelter about a week? HMMM?*

*There are a number of other factors that make this supposed "Research Study" worthless as scientific research, but anyone (except a true "Clicker" advocate) reading it would soon recognize that.*

*As a passing thought, do YOU really think that such a statistically ridicuolus study is something that you would pin your whole case on?*

*If you do think that way, no problem for a true clicker advocate. And good luck to you.*


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Shade said:


> I agree with Willy
> 
> I've always done clicker training with my dogs with great results. In Delgado's puppy class we used a clicker, but I switched trainers for his beginner obedience and they used the verbal marker "yes" instead of the clicker so I tried it out for the six week class and hated it. He would get confused very easily on new behaviors using the verbal marker and was much slower to respond
> 
> ...


 
How did you wean your dog off the clicker use? Or do you need to use it all the time when you are training?


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

My first experience with a clicker was when I got Lakota, I personally think it helps make the association of what you want much faster. I used to have a hard time teaching "look" getting the dog to look at you eye to eye, my trainer told us to spit the treat, sorry not a fan of hot dogs or liver brownies. With the clicker it was so easy. I think it is a great "tool" and once the action is taught and the word association is learned you don't need to use the clicker.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

wildo said:


> Sigh.... You're always so over the top in the statements/questions you ask about clicker training. This has been asked by you in the past, and answered plenty. Nobody has said that they can't train their dog because they forgot their clicker at home.
> 
> 
> Unless you are truly so hard headed that you just don't get it, it's a ludicrous agenda that you continue to try to push- that one cannot train without a clicker if it was somehow "forgotten at home."
> ...


 
wildo, wildo, wildo


Let me guess - you also would never use a correction for you dog, is that correct? I am just curious as i really don't care except to see if I guessed right.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

codmaster said:


> *A question for clicker advocates* - How exactly does using a clicker to mark (prolong the very brief period in which a dog can associate the behavior (or lack of it)) with the reward for that behavior?
> 
> *Related question* - how would using a clicker "increase a dog's confidence"? Good behavior followed by a real reward would increase their confidence perhaps but the "marker"?
> 
> ....


 
So can any of you "Clicker Evangelists" answer my two questions about clicker use. 

Esp. the second one as i would really like to find a way to help a friend of mine here to increase her very timid dog increase her confidence and she is willing to try almost any reasonable approach to do so.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

codmaster said:


> How did you wean your dog off the clicker use? Or do you need to use it all the time when you are training?


He's almost seven months now so I only use the clicker for new tricks or obedience

I started with hand signals using the clicker, then voice and hand signals using the clicker, then weaned him off the clicker and treats for obedience he already knew. It was basic obedience and 95% of the class was things he either already learned in puppy class or I had taught him so it was easy when it was something he knew but harder when it was something he didn't

For example. When we were working on loose leash walking they started us having the dogs sit at our side on command when we stopped walking. Delgado was trained to sit facing me so he struggled with staying to my side and dropping into a sit. It was much faster with the clicker because as soon as he started to sit when asked while still at my side I clicked. He quickly deduced that what I wanted was him to stay in position at my side and sit. 15 minutes in class using voice marker = 5 minutes with a clicker


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

codmaster said:


> So can any of you "Clicker Evangelists" answer my two questions about clicker use.
> 
> Esp. the second one as i would really like to find a way to help a friend of mine here to increase her very timid dog increase her confidence and she is willing to try almost any reasonable approach to do so.


Question 1. The clicker is a 100% happy sound when used correctly. It's a instant YAY signal to their brain. Voices change in tone with mood, the clicker never changes

Question 2. A clicker *might* be able to help with confidence because it's a feel good thing. Regardless of whether it's a simple sit or running through a tunnel in agility it's a "GOOD DOG!" with exclamation marks to their brain. I've never seen a clicker used that way personally so it's just my opinion on what it would promote especially in a timid dog. Every little step for a timid dog is a milestone so I can see how it might help speed the process possibly but I wouldn't see it as a sure fire weapon in that instance. I could be wrong though


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## Freddy (Apr 23, 2009)

So, clickers may be slightly faster than a marker word, but I think I'm with Codmaster on this one. 

First, the study was not representative of what IPO, Agility, AKC trainers are doing, shaping behaviors over long periods of time and tying them together in the end objective. My issue was yet another piece of equipment, and the fact that I already have the yes command, spoken in my dog's favorite voice in the whole world. An upbeat "yes" with a smile on your face is infinitely better than an impersonal click (think computer generated "good") with a dog you've bonded with and regularly work. I'd like to see the study repeated after the dogs and researchers lived together for a while. 

I attended a Debbie Zappia seminar 4 or 5 years ago and I believe she thought both the clicker and marker were effective, and seem to remember her saying women were far more likely to use clickers than men. Timing is everything, and like many things in life there is no "right" way for everyone. 

Use what works for you and your dog.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

codmaster said:


> *Related question* - how would using a clicker "increase a dog's confidence"? Good behavior followed by a real reward would increase their confidence perhaps but the "marker"?
> .


I think then we are agreeing that a dog can have, or not have confidence - and it is good that we all are starting at that point. 

I have one example of this. HOW it worked - I am not exactly sure. But here is the situation...Annalise...her latest thread is in the rescue stories section. Her first two were deleted with all the board changes. 

Got a dog who had been messed with - so that words that you typically use had bad associations - sit, down, floor, whatever as did any pointing, hand gestures, movements. Also making it worse was that she did not have a good association with food - we surmised but do not know, that she may have been offered food, then punished for taking it. She was a mess. 

I would know that she was not feeling good about things all the way to being terrified because she had very clear body language, and would urinate, defecate or blow her anal glands - no way to miss that!

So I was really limited in what I could do. I was quiet with her in my actions and voice, could not use food, I could use quiet praise but it didn't seem to register with her. If you've ever hung out with shelter dogs it takes them a while to acquire language - you can see them trying to "get" words, and then see when they do (which is why a click is nice for them in general). She was so afraid that she couldn't process words. Physiologically like a person in the middle of a crisis and asking them to please set the table - uh, the house is on fire, yes, but please set the table. Not going to happen!

I had never tried any clicking of any sort other than the noise you make with horses, whatever that's about (they go faster!). I contacted a guy that was recommended to me by another rescue volunteer. He was a former FBI agent (that part was just interesting to me) and I emailed him. He helped via email for free, which was nice. I was VERY skeptical that I would be able to implement this. 

She was afraid of the clicker I bought. He said use your mouth and click. Shape and mark - I knew how to do the behavior stuff in terms of shaping and realized how small the behaviors could be that I could mark for her. Exciting because she was not going to offer one big behavior - it was going to be teeny steps. So if she glanced toward me, click. Stayed toward the front of her crate for meals, click. Walking instead of crawling, click. All in smaller versions of those things. 

She quickly associated that sound with doing something well - I don't know how. I have used that noise with her for 7 years and when we are in a new situation, I click for her, and I am not sure she's hearing it, so I make sure she sees the click motion with my mouth - she looks for it and knows she's on the right track. 

And that's how I think it works - she could try things and get reinforced easily and quickly. It helped her to shape her behaviors and I created opportunities for her to gain confidence and reinforce those behaviors, getting her on a positive feedback loop and building competencies which = confidence. 

The clicker for her was the difference between being asked to draw a house and then having the teacher walk away, and being asked to draw a house and having the teacher sit and say this is what I am hoping the house will look like in the end, but since you can't do that right yet, first we'll draw the walls, then we'll draw the roof, and as you are doing it, guiding you by letting you know you are getting it.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

wildo said:


> Nobody has said that they can't train their dog because they forgot their clicker at home.


:thumbup: This question or concern has been asked and addressed DOZENS of times here, by numerous different people. It really is impossible to have a rational conversation when people are ignoring that, and starting their argument with a false premise. 



Woof_Terrorist said:


> I prefer my voice commands to clicker.


A clicker isn't a command, it's a marker. You can still give voice commands with a clicker.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

codmaster said:


> How did you wean your dog off the clicker use? Or do you need to use it all the time when you are training?


Have you read any of the previous clicker threads on the board? People ask this question all the time and it's been answered over and over and over again if you are really interested in information and not just interested in starting an argument.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

codmaster said:


> Let me guess - you also would never use a correction for you dog, is that correct? I am just curious as i really don't care except to see if I guessed right.


Nope- you guessed wrong. I use an aversive correction sometimes when I get frustrated and lose my cool- pretty much like 99% of the rest of dog trainers in this world.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

Woof_Terrorist said:


> I prefer my voice commands to clicker. Its about training and conditioning.
> 
> Yes speedo shaves off microseconds in swim speed.... but how many of us are going to compete in the Olympics?


 a better question is how many of us should even be seen in a speedo


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Freddy said:


> So, clickers may be slightly faster than a marker word, but I think I'm with Codmaster on this one.
> 
> First, the study was not representative of what IPO, Agility, AKC trainers are doing, shaping behaviors over long periods of time and tying them together in the end objective. My issue was yet another piece of equipment, and the fact that I already have the yes command, spoken in my dog's favorite voice in the whole world. An upbeat "yes" with a smile on your face is infinitely better than an impersonal click (think computer generated "good") with a dog you've bonded with and regularly work. I'd like to see the study repeated after the dogs and researchers lived together for a while.
> 
> ...


 
*That is the KEY!*


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

crackem said:


> a better question is how many of us should even be seen in a speedo


 
HEH! HEH! HEH!



Could be the last word on this subject!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Have you read any of the previous clicker threads on the board? People ask this question all the time and it's been answered over and over and over again if you are really interested in information and* not just interested in starting an argument*.


Nope!

I just wanted to find out what some particular folks thought at this time, not in looking up old similar threads from differenht people.

Sorry if that was not the thing to do


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

wildo said:


> Nope- you guessed wrong. I use an aversive correction sometimes when I get frustrated and lose my cool- *pretty much like 99% of the rest of dog trainers in this world*.


 
*Very true!*


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I use marker words more often than I use a clicker but the fact remains that the term "clicker training" does not mean any sort of marker training, it means using a clicker in a certain way. There is clicker training, and then training with a clicker, or training with a marker. For me it is not about the study and whether it's valid. If you use a prong collar and then decided to use a flat collar instead of a prong collar, you don't say you are "prong collar training but with a flat collar". If you started training a Michael Ellis method and then switch to Koehler you don't say you are training ME method with your own twist. The term "clicker training" implies certain criteria and how the tools are used.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

codmaster said:


> HEH! HEH! HEH!
> 
> 
> 
> Could be the last word on this subject!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


 I do believe that would be when picture evidence started being posted, but with this group, who knows


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Liesje said:


> I use marker words more often than I use a clicker but the fact remains that the term "clicker training" does not mean any sort of marker training, it means using a clicker in a certain way. There is clicker training, and then training with a clicker, or training with a marker. For me it is not about the study and whether it's valid. If you use a prong collar and then decided to use a flat collar instead of a prong collar, you don't say you are "prong collar training but with a flat collar". If you started training a Michael Ellis method and then switch to Koehler you don't say you are training ME method with your own twist. The term "clicker training" implies certain criteria and how the tools are used.


True, but the OP specifically asked about using a clicker to mark behavior and then went on to compare it to a verbal marker, so I don't know if he's referring to "clicker training" per se, or just marker training with a clicker.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

codmaster said:


> Nope!
> 
> I just wanted to find out what some particular folks thought at this time, not in looking up *old* similar threads from differenht people.
> 
> Sorry if that was not the thing to do


Here's one from last week: http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...s/187921-question-about-clicker-training.html

Here's one from a couple of weeks ago that you actually commented on: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-our-puppy-basic/186490-opinion-clicker-training.html

Since those threads are so recent it's probably going to be mostly the same people commenting, not "different people".  Or maybe some of those people participating on the other threads aren't going to bother answering the same questions all over again since they've already answered them not long ago.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

codmaster said:


> i would really like to find a way to help a friend of mine here to increase her very timid dog increase her confidence and she is willing to try almost any reasonable approach to do so.


How old is her dog? What breed? How much exercise, and what type of exercise is her dog currently getting? How much of the owner's time does the dog receive? That's just a start...

Using the clicker or not, wouldn't starting a thread about building confidence be more beneficial? I'm sure many readers would find it helpful. Just like many readers probably find your attitude towards the clicker tiresome. "Evangelists"....c'mon - get one, try training your dog a new trick with one, and then comment on it. Or is it just too newfangled?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I did not see the part about the very timid dog. 

I hope that my post was seen - I am more than happy to answer any questions, timid dogs are my favorites.


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

I have actually tried training both ways, with and without a clicker. For the same dog, different exercises. I think the clicker helped mark the correct behavior better, therefore the reinforcement was better. For the timid or shy dog, I really think the clicker is more consistent. No voice fluctuations to react to. No hand movement to shy away from. That could be the key for this particular dog. Reinforce appropritate behavior with a click. Even as simple as looking at something and not barking, then looking back at the owner. Reinforcement of that type will let the dog know what is expected of it in that situation.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

dawnandjr said:


> I have actually tried training both ways, with and without a clicker. For the same dog, different exercises. I think the clicker helped mark the correct behavior better, therefore the reinforcement was better. For the timid or shy dog, I really think the clicker is more consistent. No voice fluctuations to react to. No hand movement to shy away from. That could be the key for this particular dog. Reinforce appropritate behavior with a click. Even as simple as looking at something and not barking, then looking back at the owner. Reinforcement of that type will let the dog know what is expected of it in that situation.


Very well said, and concise (though others are trying to say the same thing).

Because we do NOT use our voice, there is no emotion involved. ZERO. Not to add stress or pressure for a dog. What Is Clicker Training? | Karen Pryor Clickertraining



> A click is more powerful for training than a spoken word because it is not a sound heard by the animal in other circumstances. It means one thing only: _a reward is coming because of what you did when you heard the click_. It can be produced instantly and at the exact moment a behavior occurs. Even a very quick and subtle behavior, the twitch of an ear for example, can be clicked.
> Unlike our voices, which can say the same word in different ways, and so express different emotions or meanings each time, the click sounds the same every time it is heard; its meaning never varies. Humans are highly verbal creatures, but our pets are not. It can be difficult for them to pick out a single word from the stream of meaningless words they hear us speak every day. The click’s meaning, however, is always clear. It is always directed at the animal, and it is always good news.
> The clarity with which a click enables trainers to communicate with their animals has a profound effect on their relationships. Their level of interaction increases, and trainer and animal become more interesting and fun for each other.


The click is just a marker, not a command. It's sharp, concise, and only means one thing EVER, that was brilliant.... here's a reward.

Helping Shy Dogs Blossom Using Targeting | Karen Pryor Clickertraining

Let's Make Some Noise!: Techniques to Build Your Dog's Confidence | ClickFlicks Learning Center

http://pamsdogtraining.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Navigate-your-way-through-clicker-training.pdf

I'm always amazed when people argue against clicker training and say it's not worth the bother. Because the fact is though it does mean THE HUMAN has to learn something new too (apparently it's easier to train/blame the dog and use older methods) clicker training really does work.

There is a reason all the top trainers in most dog venues clicker train. Because it works. Faster and clearer for our pup means the training progresses faster and better. 

So CLEARLY everyone can agree dogs can be trained without the clicker. Dogs can also be trained without treats. Without toys. Without praise. Without a leash. Without a collar. Without.........

If using ANY of those 'tools' benefits my dog and their learning, then I choose to add it to my bag of tricks.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Someone seems to like clickers, for sure.

ALL the TOP trainers in MOST dog venues use clickers? Interesting fact.

I never noticed that before. In fact in the ScH training that I have done in the last year plus exactly 1 used a clicker, some of the time.

Maybe i will have to try one - seems almost like one can't go wrong with it.

OTOH, I think that maybe it is a good thing to have a little emotion in my training with my dog. At least he "seems" to smile himself when he can hear the happiness and excitement in my voice when Italk to him when he does something just right.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

codmaster said:


> he "seems" to smile himself when he can hear the happiness and excitement in my voice when Italk to him when he does something just right.


Yeah, I like that too. Alot! But what in tarnation does it have to do with the clicker? Is this your reasoning behind not using one, seriously? If that's the case, I'd bet my last dollar that you didn't bother trying to understand anything that people have posted in this thread.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

dawnandjr said:


> I have actually tried training both ways, with and without a clicker. For the same dog, different exercises. I think the clicker helped mark the correct behavior better, therefore the reinforcement was better. For the timid or shy dog, I really think the clicker is more consistent.


This is why using a clicker to mark *is* different than using a marker word. A clicker is ONLY ever a clicker. The ONLY time that dog hears noise is to mark a behavior. Our voices are everything from markers to commands to corrections to NRM to bridge...

I use a marker word far more often than a clicker but it's still different to the dog.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Blanketback said:


> Yeah, I like that too. Alot! But what in tarnation does it have to do with the clicker? Is this your reasoning behind not using one, seriously? If that's the case, *I'd bet my last dollar* that you didn't bother trying to understand anything that people have posted in this thread.


 
*You lose!*


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Prove it please


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I've posted a video of step by step instructions on working with food aggression that have been similarly ignored. 
It's SO easy - takes moments, and a child could do it. In fact the child SHOULD do it, after the parents have done it a few times.
Same thing here. 
Same tune different day.

I think a lot of the folks who can't wrap their brains around the success of clickers have dominance on their brains, and think a GSD cannot learn with one, at least that's what I'm starting to see - a pattern.

If anyone's bored today, browse away--
clicker training for dogs - YouTube


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

These clicker posts never make sense to me. If you use one and like it, great. If you've never used one and don't want to, that's fine too. 
But to carry on a debate about them if you've never used one makes no sense AT ALL. It's like saying steak is better than lobster when you've never eaten lobster.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

people often like to talk the most about things they know the least about


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Blanketback said:


> Prove it please


 
Heh! Heh!

You just did!

Thank you and you have a great day!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> I've posted a video of step by step instructions on working with food aggression that have been similarly ignored.
> It's SO easy - takes moments, and a child could do it. In fact the child SHOULD do it, after the parents have done it a few times.
> Same thing here.
> Same tune different day.
> ...


I was bored today so I looked at the video, and now ...........

Actually, clicker training can work if done properly, no question about it; just like using a voice marker in place of the clicker (I always have my voice with me which is one advantage to voice markers, just for me) can
and does work as well.

Timing is critical with the marker in either tool - hence the reason for the use of either "marker" rather than just using the reward itself.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Codmaster, we're talking about my very last dollar in the world here. I'll graciously give it to you, if I've lost the bet. I'm merely asking for proof that I have indeed lost the bet. Quoting my quote of your quote isn't proof of anything, except that you can use the quote function. 

Thank you for wishing me a nice day though  I hope it rains later so I can go biking with my pup. Cross your fingers for us, lol. You have a great day too!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

mvsette,

I looked at the first video in the list you referenced in your post.

*"It is also a ethical way to bond with your companion animal as you train the animal to want to do what you want them to do, rather than physically or psychologically intimidating the animal to do what you want." 
*
*Sounds like the author is one of those "positive only" advocates who think dogs are people. From the quote above, could you tell me what would be an "unethical" way to bond with my dog? I sure wouldn't want to do one of them!*

*And also did you know that one should "muffle" the clicker when you are first introducing the clicker to your dog? Otherwise the sound of the click could frighten the dog!  She really said this on the video!! *

*Wow! I never would think that my 85lb GSD who I am training in protection would be frightened by the sound of a clicker! *

*Wow! It turns out that I must have been just very lucky that I didn't scare him when we tried the clicker in a group obedience class at my local OB club.
*


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Blanketback said:


> Codmaster, we're talking about my very last dollar in the world here. I'll graciously give it to you, if I've lost the bet. I'm merely asking for proof that I have indeed lost the bet. Quoting my quote of your quote isn't proof of anything, except that you can use the quote function.
> 
> Thank you for wishing me a nice day though  I hope it rains later so I can go biking with my pup. Cross your fingers for us, lol. You have a great day too!


 
What proof would you like? Keep your last dollar and spend it to buy a treat for your dog!


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Okeydoke 

I guess if you really wanted to prove it to me, you could compose a list of members participating in this thread, with a brief synopsis of what you were able to take away from their posts. Other than, "Oh, another clicker fan. Geesh!"


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Blanketback said:


> Okeydoke
> 
> I guess if you really wanted to prove it to me, you could compose a list of members participating in this thread, with a brief synopsis of what you were able to take away from their posts. Other than, "Oh, another clicker fan. Geesh!"


Probably not going to happen although I would be glad to review your very own synopsis by poster.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Hopefully Blanketback, other people will find and be able to learn from this thread, so it will have served a very useful purpose. For those who do, a big click and even a <gasp> treat!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

You know, I don't know of a single person - not one, who thinks dogs are people.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

jeankbbmmmaan said:


> hopefully blanketback, other people will find and be able to learn from this thread, so it will have served a very useful purpose. For those who do, a big click and even a <gasp> treat!


 
heh! Heh!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@ Cassidy'sMom.....I may not know anyone that thinks a dog is a person, but I know a lot of people on this forum that think that dogs rationalize, expect, are motivated, conceptualizer, and feel the same way about training tools as people. Lol.....you see it all the time in their posts.
Like every pup that I have ever started with a leash, it has caused STRESS! Gradually, just like with any other tool, they become very comfortable with said tool if continued to be used fairly and correctly. Eventually, they get to point that when you pick up leash, they show exuberance, just like any other tool used right. I have seen flat leather collars, pinch collars, remote collars, choke collars, all picked up and the dogs show this positive excitement, because it represents something positive coming FROM the dogs perception. The problem is often the owners/humans perception of the tool that makes it negative, though it is used correctly and the dogs behavior (positive), does not coincide with the humans view. 
The same with clickers, great tool that has been proven to be part of the dog training industry, though some have negative perceptions of the tool. Much of the negative perceptions and comments about tools are based on human emotion, or uneducated feelings, when the tool is used right. The last post of Crackem really sums it up.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> they become very comfortable with said tool *if *continued to be used fairly and correctly.


That is one huge IF, my friend.

I mean _HUGE. _


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I y o !


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