# 2010 Dog Bite Fatalities - Do read!



## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Dog Bite Fatalites 2010 Final Report - KC DOG BLOG

I don't always agree with KC, but this is an interesting read. Read what they have to say about the attacks.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

very interesting read... I don't think anyone on the forum will be very surprised by the findings. Very sad how in several of the cases only the media call the dogs "pit bulls"


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

It was just so sad to read about the kids.. How could anyone leave a newborn with an animal?


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Very intersting breakdown of these cases. I think it safe to say that 100% of these cases stem from poor stewardship of the dog.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

It appears that poverty is the leading risk factor of dying as a result of a dog attack.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Dogs with a history of aggression + stupid owners + poverty + young children = Bad outcomes


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## JudynRich (Apr 16, 2010)

Excellent information...what stikes me is how so many of these deaths could have been prevented...in reality, for most of the child deaths, it appears to be a case of parental negligence. Very sad.


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## Kris10 (Aug 26, 2010)

YES to all of the above. Blaming a particular breed is easy and it sells. Blaming someone mourning the loss of a child is not PC...


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

I read about a fatal dog attack on a newborn infant by a Pomeranian! This is actually not too surprising if you realize that people treat their toy breed dogs like babies. I have always been a dog lover & have had or spent time with mastiffs of different types, GSDs, Boxers, Great Danes, English Bulldogs, French Bulldogs, etc. My one Frenchie is very dog aggressive at times, within our own pack. We deal with him in a firm manner- he always gets fed last, is told to sit before petting, is not allowed on our laps unless we invite him up, he NEVER sleeps on our bed with us, & so forth. The size of the dog is irrelevant when it comes to aggression - it is relevant in the amount of trauma they can cause. I have to admit that in spite of never being leery of any breed of dog, I am very afraid of the "pit bull" type/breeds. I am an educated person & a well-versed dog owner, but I simply cannot get over this fear of them. I have to wonder if this is because of all the poorly-bred BTB dogs that everyone here in Alabama have chained to a tree or fenced in their back yards. I believe if I met a serious breeder & show person of the different pitt type breeds, I would not be as fearful. Also, all the Mr. Tough Guys down South never have their dogs neutered - a girl at work said that her brother loves his dog's "junk" hangin' down. CraigsList is chock full of pittbull puppies - why don't people have their dogs spayed/nuetered? So many dogs are put down in the shelters, especially if they are of a pitt type. I feel so sorry for them.


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## GSD_Xander (Nov 27, 2010)

Very interesting to read, sad about all the irresponsible parents.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

maxtmill - I have met some really nice pit bulls. As a matter of fact, there is a sweet pit mix that lives behind me. Oddly, my dog aggressive GSD likes her. I do understand your fear though. While I have nothing against pits, it would not be my breed of choice. I live close to Baltimore City. Both the city shelter, SPCA and our county humane society are full of pit bulls and pit mixes. If you want to adopt from one of our local shelters and don't want a pit, you are pretty much out of luck. Likewise, Craigslist is primarily pit bulls - including tons of pit bull puppies. 

So - If you and I don't want to adopt a pit bull and many other people don't want to adopt pit bulls, it the dogs who suffer. Stupid people keep allowing the dogs to breed. It is a shame for the pit bulls.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

It is absolutely amazing to me that some people simply do not have any shred of common sense at all. What is the thought process that allows a parent to walk away and leave their infant or toddler in a room with large dogs unsupervised? Why would anyone ever think that would be an alright thing to do? 

The case that bothers me the most is the one of the little boy in Florida who was killed by the family dog while his mother slept on the same bed next to him. I would like to know what substances the mother was under the influence of to have slept through her baby being attacked by a dog!


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Chris - Isn't that the one where the mother was 16 years old? Babies having babies. Not enough maturity, or sense to be a mother. You're probably right about the drugs. Hard to believe someone could sleep through that.


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

I think people put too much trust into their pets. People want to believe that their baby will be fine with the dog for a few minutes because the dog would never do anything to hurt anyone. Well I disagree with that. I could never put 100% trust into an animal no matter what. They can't talk, we don't know what goes through their head, and I can't say I trust any human 100% anyway. I trust my dogs pretty well that they wouldn't do anything to hurt anyone in the family, but I would NEVER leave them unattended with a child.


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

I read or heard somewhere (?) that the cry or squealing of a baby or child is similar to an animal in distress, & may set off a dog with a high prey drive. Has anyone else heard this theory?


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

maxtmill said:


> I have to admit that in spite of never being leery of any breed of dog, I am very afraid of the "pit bull" type/breeds. I am an educated person & a well-versed dog owner, but I simply cannot get over this fear of them. I have to wonder if this is because of all the poorly-bred BTB dogs that everyone here in Alabama have chained to a tree or fenced in their back yards. I believe if I met a serious breeder & show person of the different pitt type breeds, I would not be as fearful. Also, all the Mr. Tough Guys down South never have their dogs neutered - a girl at work said that her brother loves his dog's "junk" hangin' down. CraigsList is chock full of pittbull puppies - why don't people have their dogs spayed/nuetered? So many dogs are put down in the shelters, especially if they are of a pitt type. I feel so sorry for them.


With all of the media frenzy over these dogs (and the people who are mostly attracted to them because of it) your fear is completely understandable.. But first, you must learn what a Pit Bull is before you fear it. I would say a good 80% of not more of the 'Pit Bulls' you see and hear about on the news are not Pit Bulls at all. So education is a must. Here is a quick example.

#1

















#2

















#3

















All three are breeds.. The 1st is American Bully. The 2nd is American Staffordshire Terrier. The 3rd is the only Pit Bull, the american Pit Bull terrier.

But all three would be considered 'Pit Bulls' by someone who isn't educated in the breed.. This is true so many other bull (or terrier) breeds, but I won't swamp this thread with differ breed pics.



Overbreeding is a HUGE problem with the breed, when I got on petfinder entire pages are Bull-breeds. Most puppy ad's are 'pit bulls', which are usually BYB mutts or American Bullies.

As for not neutering - if you're responsible I don't care, I like my males natural but I will never breed them.. However most people are not very responsible and seem to think a dog should have several litters to be happy - this goes for any breed.

Pit Bull's, the real ones not the mutts, are supposed to show dog aggression, at shows judges don't mind them firing up at other dogs as it's a breed trait. Human aggression, however, is looked down on and dogs of this breed who shows it need to the put down. 

Chaining a bulldog is actually a very good way to contain them.. A proper kennel is better (so other animals can't get onto their chainspot), but the price to make several (some yards have upwards of 10+ dogs) PROPER kennels is going to be high. You need a concrete bottom, a top, and very durable and strong sides. These dogs are escape artists and their tenacity makes all but the strongest of kennel out to be a joke.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> So - If you and I don't want to adopt a pit bull and many other people don't want to adopt pit bulls, it the dogs who suffer. Stupid people keep allowing the dogs to breed. It is a shame for the pit bulls.


Yes, it's a shame so many dogs will die... And call me cruel to say this, but I think we need to put down a lot more pit bulls in shelters. Shelters for the most part do not know how to properly place a pit dog. The send them home with families as companions for their other dogs, they don't educate them on animal aggression.. They don't tell them never to have this dog off leash in public, to avoid dog parks. It hurts me to go to my local shelter and see my very favorite dogs overflowing their cages, and that particular shelter (NNSPCA) will adopt to multi-animal households. 

Come to that, we need to put down a lot more dogs in general.. While admirable, when a shelter or rescue pours tons of resources into one dog because it's aggressive/fearful, sick or injured, how many healthy and stable dogs could have been saved with those resources? 

It sounds awful to say that, but take a stroll through some local kill shelters and sit in the lobby for a while and WATCH several dogs being brought in, by owners, by AC etc.
Overpopulation is a HUGE problem... And while I think just about every life deserves a chance, it simply can't be done. So I think it's unfair to put $100's - $1,000's into a single dog when that money could be stretched to save many who are healthy and stable. 

I _love_ dogs, but even I can't cast a blind eye over the problem. Kill Shelters have a 'save them all' mentality so often.. They push dogs on people who can't handle them. My friend adopted an American Bully from this shelter, she came in looking as some lab mix pups, but they really pushed this adult male on her until she fell in love and adopted him. She went back and talked to some of the people, looking to get a young female dog. They talked her into getting a male APBT mix. Many bloody fights later she is stuck with this dog, rotating him with her Bully or else he will kill the big mutt. The shelter said if THEY take him back, they will put him down, but she can't rehome him since it's against her contract. So she is between a rock and a hard place. Kill her dog or live with two adult males who will paint her walls with blood if they get loose. And this is from the shelters not educating people on these dogs and being uneducated themselves, and pushing the wrong dogs on people.


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## King&Skylar (Jun 3, 2010)

I for one, had NO idea what a pitbull actually was until a few weeks ago. I always heard stories about them, how vicious they were, etc. and pictured this big mean human aggresive dog- boy was i wrong... My mother owns a boarding/grooming shop and i've been clicker training some of the dogs that are there for awhile, and one of them is a pitbull- i was nervous going in to meet her, but she has become my best friend (in a matter of minutes, actually) she's much smaller than i thought and SO sweet, she completely changed my ideas of pitbulls, and i'm much more aware of when the media says its a pitbull, it might not actually be an APBT. Just thought i'd add that. 

Also, Its interesting to read all of the stories on that blog about thefatalities, how all of the children were left alone with the dog! it's shocking how the media changes things around for dramatic effect, really disgusting and no wonder people (like I was, sadly) have such wrong opinions on certain breeds of dogs.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

AbbyK9 said:


> It is absolutely amazing to me that some people simply do not have any shred of common sense at all. What is the thought process that allows a parent to walk away and leave their infant or toddler in a room with large dogs unsupervised? Why would anyone ever think that would be an alright thing to do?
> 
> The case that bothers me the most is the one of the little boy in Florida who was killed by the family dog while his mother slept on the same bed next to him. I would like to know what substances the mother was under the influence of to have slept through her baby being attacked by a dog!


Absolutely.. I recently put up a rant about this. People do not view their dogs as ANIMALS, animals who will eat your baby and not have regret or sorrow. They trust their dogs to the point of foolishness. WHO leaves a newborn, just a few days old, human baby alone with a DOG? 

My own idiotic neighbors let their 3yo go into the backyard, alone, with their three mutts who are not even socialized with the family.. 

Yeah, either the dog bit the baby's head one good time so he didn't make sound or smothered him or she was under some heavy influence.. Just kills me to think of these kids who died because their parents are morons.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

King&Skylar said:


> I for one, had NO idea what a pitbull actually was until a few weeks ago. I always heard stories about them, how vicious they were, etc. and pictured this big mean human aggresive dog- boy was i wrong... My mother owns a boarding/grooming shop and i've been clicker training some of the dogs that are there for awhile, and one of them is a pitbull- i was nervous going in to meet her, but she has become my best friend (in a matter of minutes, actually) *she's much smaller than i thought and SO sweet,* she completely changed my ideas of pitbulls, and i'm much more aware of when the media says its a pitbull, it might not actually be an APBT. Just thought i'd add that.
> 
> Also, Its interesting to read all of the stories on that blog about thefatalities, how all of the children were left alone with the dog! it's shocking how the media changes things around for dramatic effect, really disgusting and no wonder people (like I was, sadly) have such wrong opinions on certain breeds of dogs.


Yep, most people picture American Bullies when they hear 'Pit Bull', big, heavy, muscle-bound brutes wearing spiked collars.. Google 'Blue Pit Bull' and 99% will be American Bullies or Amstaff mixes.. Real APBTs range from -20lbs to 60+ (not usual, that's big for an APBT).

I'm glad that little girl changed your mind.

KC dog Blog has some interesting stories for sure. They are biased FOR pit dogs, but try to read around that..


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## irongrl (May 24, 2010)

APBTLove said:


> Yes, it's a shame so many dogs will die... And call me cruel to say this, but I think we need to put down a lot more pit bulls in shelters. Shelters for the most part do not know how to properly place a pit dog. The send them home with families as companions for their other dogs, they don't educate them on animal aggression.. They don't tell them never to have this dog off leash in public, to avoid dog parks. It hurts me to go to my local shelter and see my very favorite dogs overflowing their cages, and that particular shelter (NNSPCA) will adopt to multi-animal households.
> 
> Come to that, we need to put down a lot more dogs in general.. While admirable, when a shelter or rescue pours tons of resources into one dog because it's aggressive/fearful, sick or injured, how many healthy and stable dogs could have been saved with those resources?
> 
> ...


Our local Humane Society just started a new promotion, where they have decreased the adoption fees for Pit Bull type dogs and puppies. They do have a high number of these dogs (as do all the shelters in this area) and they are be trying to get more people to consider adopting them. 

What is your opinion on this? It seems to me they might be pushing the dogs on people who don't really understand the breed and who might not be prepared to handle them. I don't know how much education they provide to someone who does adopt so maybe I am wrong. I know they do temperament testing and the dogs they have seem very friendly.


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## Bridget (Apr 5, 2004)

When my son was 18 and still living at home, he informed us he was getting a pit bull puppy. All I knew about pit bulls was what I had heard on TV (no idea even what they looked like), so I said "Oh no, we're not getting one of those." Of course, being my son, he did anyway and after caring for the dog when my son was out of town, Petey became the apple of my eye. Unfortunately, Petey died young from a medical problem, but I became a fan of the breed. Since then I have kept my eyes open and studied and interacted with pit bulls whenever I can, and I have never seen one that was aggressive with people.


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## Deuce (Oct 14, 2010)

Interesting read, however before I even opened the link I knew that most would be from Pits. I, for one, am a huge advocate against the breed and personally do think they're nothing but trouble. I'm sure i'll receive an outcry of negative remarks to that statement but it's the truth which I always speak. I'm an attack victim, as are my children, of a Pit which belonged to my neighbor. I stand behind ASPCA's who euthanize any Pits who are brought in.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

irongrl said:


> Our local Humane Society just started a new promotion, where they have decreased the adoption fees for Pit Bull type dogs and puppies. They do have a high number of these dogs (as do all the shelters in this area) and they are be trying to get more people to consider adopting them.
> 
> What is your opinion on this? It seems to me they might be pushing the dogs on people who don't really understand the breed and who might not be prepared to handle them. I don't know how much education they provide to someone who does adopt so maybe I am wrong. I know they do temperament testing and the dogs they have seem very friendly.


I don't like it.. I would be fine if they made the adopters go through a class on the breeds, but most shelters/rescues don't know enough themselves nor do they have the resources. 

The thing with these dogs, most are wonderful with people and kids, but DA will likely pop up unexpectedly and fast, and then they go back to being goofy sweethearts, or some just stay completely DA after they 'turn on' (the term for a bulldog reaching maturity and becoming DA) I've known bulldogs in the same home to tear each other up, then after re-introduced lick each other's wounds. It's just instinct in their part telling them to fight other animals and that makes them hard pets to have for the usual owner.. and it's the average owners who cause the most harm for any working breed, because they expect them to be a lazy house pet.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Deuce said:


> Interesting read, however before I even opened the link I knew that most would be from Pits. I, for one, am a huge advocate against the breed and personally do think they're nothing but trouble. I'm sure i'll receive an outcry of negative remarks to that statement but it's the truth which I always speak. I'm an attack victim, as are my children, of a Pit which belonged to my neighbor. I stand behind ASPCA's who euthanize any Pits who are brought in.


I'm sorry that happened to you and I respect your opinion. But I do beg you to educate yourself on what a pit bull is.

I will NOT say there are only bad owners, as with any breed at all some dogs are born with temperament issues and those dogs need a bullet. 

And I agree with the ASPCA on that too, I would have 99% of bulldogs in shelters killed for the breed's sake, but they are a filthy group of hypocrites and if you don't know about them, research on them as well, Humane Watch is a good place to start, I have a thread in this section about them too. 

I can certainly explain the high numbers of 'pit bull' attacks and why attacking the breed is not a working theory - if you'd like to hear me, if not that's fine.


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## Deuce (Oct 14, 2010)

APBTLove said:


> I'm sorry that happened to you and I respect your opinion. But I do beg you to educate yourself on what a pit bull is.
> 
> I will NOT say there are only bad owners, as with any breed at all some dogs are born with temperament issues and those dogs need a bullet.
> 
> ...


I respect your opinion, too, and knew you'd be the first to chime in on my comment  Am Staffs, Bulldogs, Pits...they're all the same. They're bred to fight and be agressive and that's what they do. Just because there are other members of the Pit family aside from actual Pit Bull Terriers doesn't mean they're any less dangerous or agressive. That's like saying if you hate the taste of apples you should eat a Granny Smith one because it's green.... it's still an apple.

Do Labs and German Shepherds bite? Sure, but do they have the reputation that PBT's do? Not even close. There's a reason why PBT's and close family members are banned from many dog parks, apartment complexes and Home Owners Assocations and why they don't end up as police dogs.....

Everyone's going to have their own thoughts, comments and opinions on this topic...it's like politics.  But it's really a total load of crap when anyone says "it's not the dog, it's the way they are raised".


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Deuce said:


> Do Labs and German Shepherds bite? Sure, but do they have the reputation that PBT's do? Not even close. There's a reason why PBT's and close family members are banned from many dog parks, apartment complexes and Home Owners Assocations and why they don't end up as police dogs.....
> 
> Everyone's going to have their own thoughts, comments and opinions on this topic...it's like politics.  But it's really a total load of crap when anyone says "it's not the dog, it's the way they are raised".


GSDs, Dobes, Rotties, have all had the same/similar reputation in the past as Pits. They are also banned by many apartment complexes, insurance companies, even groomers and vet techs often fear them. How many times growing up did I hear people explain that a Dobe should never be trusted - their brain gets too large for their skull and then they go crazy with the pain and start killing people!

The reason that Pits don't end up as police dogs is that most areas use "dual purpose" k9s and a Pit would be useless to apprehend criminals. While they ARE bred to be animal aggressive, Pits should never be human aggressive. If you think about it, it would be more logical to fear GSDs/etc because they are bred with the intention of being willing to engage humans.

ETA: I will agree that you can't "raise" a Pit to not be dog aggressive. However, it can be controlled and responsibly handled, just like any other dog problem.


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## irongrl (May 24, 2010)

APBTLove said:


> I don't like it.. I would be fine if they made the adopters go through a class on the breeds, but most shelters/rescues don't know enough themselves nor do they have the resources.
> 
> The thing with these dogs, most are wonderful with people and kids, but DA will likely pop up unexpectedly and fast, and then they go back to being goofy sweethearts, or some just stay completely DA after they 'turn on' (the term for a bulldog reaching maturity and becoming DA) I've known bulldogs in the same home to tear each other up, then after re-introduced lick each other's wounds. It's just instinct in their part telling them to fight other animals and that makes them hard pets to have for the usual owner.. and it's the average owners who cause the most harm for any working breed, because they expect them to be a lazy house pet.


Thanks for your answer. I agree and have thought that the shelters here may be pushing a little too hard to put these dogs into homes. The Humane Society here does require adopters to bring in any dogs they already have to meet the dog they want to adopt. Not sure how much that would help though.


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## Locknload (Nov 8, 2010)

Deuce said:


> But it's really a total load of crap when anyone says "it's not the dog, it's the way they are raised".


It is not a load of crap, and to say it is shows an ignorance in canine behavior and training that I find somewhat sad in a pet owner.

Some dogs, just like some people, are "born bad". This is the exception, not the rule. Most dogs are *made* bad.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Interesting read. I knew most would involve something with people calling the dog a pitbull. The first story took place where my aunt lives. 

Poor dog ownership + poorly handled/trained unsocialized dog + poverty + children left unattended + other stupidity = disaster.


All the Pitbulls I have met were very sweet, and nice, some had dog aggression issues, and some didn't it. Many aggression issues(no matter what the breed) and other behavior issues can come from being poorly trained, unsocialized, and genetics etc. In a way it all comes back to the owner, the owner is responsible for keeping control of their dog, socializing it training it, etc. As for geneitcs, yes it in a way that does come back to the owner if they have a dog they know has behavioral problems or any other issues they should either have the animal spayed/neutered OR if they want to keep the dog intact they better make sure that dog does NOT reproduce and is able to pass on any issues to its offspring. Thats the is issue with BYBs they aren't aware, or don't care if their dog has any problems and will just breed.

Many housing and apartment complexes, insurances dog parks have breed restrictions, and NO it does NOT only have Pitbulls on that list. Before my family and I got Molly we had to make sure we were allowed to own a GSD. We are allowed to own a GSD, but we can't own a Rottweiler, Doberman, or a Pitbull. So no, BSL does not only affect Pitbulls, it also affects GSDs, Rottweilers, Dobermans, and many other breeds. You can look up the list online. I always suggest or more rather advise people to EDUCATE themselves before they go around saying Pitbulls are bad, evil, etc. Its sad these attacks happen, but it gives no one any right to blame the dog IMO Look into the reasons WHY the dog attacked you and educate yourself on the dog breed. Just because one was bad doesn't mean ALL are bad. Remember people say the EXACT same thing about GSDs. BSL effects all breeds.I hate ignorance and many people(NOT all) who are for BSL are ignorant and don't know much about the breed(or breeds) they are trying to eliminate.

I am 100% against BSL, and always will be. I believe any dog that is involved in a dog attack should be evaluated to figure out WHY the dog attacked and see if the dog can be rehabilitated or be at least be managed. I have met many people who can handle DA and HA dogs without a problem. How? Because they are responsible owners, know how to handle a dog with these issues. I like to try all options before having the dog put down. 


EDUCATE yourself on the breeds you dislike, or want put down. Because not all are like that. And BSL not only effects that breed, but it won't only effect those breeds, but also your breed, and in our case its GSDs, GSDs are on the list and many cities right now are trying to ban them.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Deuce said:


> I respect your opinion, too, and knew you'd be the first to chime in on my comment  Am Staffs, Bulldogs, Pits...they're all the same. They're bred to fight and be agressive and that's what they do. Just because there are other members of the Pit family aside from actual Pit Bull Terriers doesn't mean they're any less dangerous or agressive. That's like saying if you hate the taste of apples you should eat a Granny Smith one because it's green.... it's still an apple.
> 
> Do Labs and German Shepherds bite? Sure, but do they have the reputation that PBT's do? Not even close. There's a reason why PBT's and close family members are banned from many dog parks, apartment complexes and Home Owners Assocations and why they don't end up as police dogs.....
> 
> Everyone's going to have their own thoughts, comments and opinions on this topic...it's like politics.  But it's really a total load of crap when anyone says "it's not the dog, it's the way they are raised".


Many GSD's are "bred to bite people" (ScH and K9 lines) - does that make them bad dogs? Of course not!

With rare exceptions it is "how they are raised" that makes the difference.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

codmaster said:


> Many GSD's are "bred to bite people" (ScH and K9 lines) - does that make them bad dogs? Of course not!
> 
> With rare exceptions it is "how they are raised" that makes the difference.


I agree  Pits have been bred for years to not be human aggressive. A good GSD would have to have that willingness in order to do their job!


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## Valkyrierider (Jul 21, 2010)

The sad truth is many large breed dogs have been on these lists. In the 60s and 70s you seen GSDs and Dobermans. 70s and 80s they added Rotties and Akitas. 90s on they added the Pit type or fighting breeds (a term I don't like to use). Reality is people created the situation by irresponsible breeding, ownership and training. Many of the attacks that occur on children are also the fault of the parents by not properly supervising them. The biggest reason you don't see small and toy breeds listed is simply size does matter. If one of them bites, you end up with a smaller wound compared to that from a GSD or Pit. Besides it is much easier to pull a Chihuahua off someone then a Pit. I'd bet there are far more bites from the small breeds that go unreported because they can be treated at home. This results in skewed statistics that the insurance industry uses and results in breed bans by the various places.


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

codmaster said:


> Many GSD's are "bred to bite people" (ScH and K9 lines) - does that make them bad dogs? Of course not!
> 
> With rare exceptions it is "how they are raised" that makes the difference.


That's not a totally accurate statement. The dogs used in police work are not bred to "bite" people. they are bred to have the behaviors, drives and NERVE necessary to be trained to bite people. That is more than just a play on words. It's the training of a suitable dog that makes them bite, not the breeding.

DFrost


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Valkyrierider said:


> I'd bet there are far more bites from the small breeds that go unreported because they can be treated at home. This results in skewed statistics that the insurance industry uses and results in breed bans by the various places.


Unfortunately, insurance companies really don't care how many people a dog bites, they're only interested in how many insurance claims they have to pay because of the bites.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

DFrost said:


> That's not a totally accurate statement. The dogs used in police work are not bred to "bite" people. they are *bred to have the behaviors, drives and NERVE necessary to be trained to bite people*. That is more than just a play on words. It's the training of a suitable dog that makes them bite, not the breeding.DFrost


And exactly what does the trainer do to "train a suitable dog" to bite people? 

They encourage their natural behavior (drives) - what I said! They are bred to bite people - they already know HOW to bite people - all we do to train them is to teach them WHEN!

My ScH trainer once told me "That is a natural ScH" about a male dog I had who was a german import - sounded a lot to me as if he was bred to bite people (and also good in the other two aspects of ScH - obedience and tracking as well)!


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## Valkyrierider (Jul 21, 2010)

Whiteshepherds said:


> Unfortunately, insurance companies really don't care how many people a dog bites, they're only interested in how many insurance claims they have to pay because of the bites.


I agree their statistics are based on claims. What I was saying was if the bite is home treated and not claimed or reported. They don't have to pay out therefore as far as they are concerned it didn't happen. The bigger the dog the potentially more severe the bite and the more likely for medical care or a claim would be filed.


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

codmaster said:


> And exactly what does the trainer do to "train a suitable dog" to bite people?
> 
> They encourage their natural behavior (drives) - what I said! They are bred to bite people - they already know HOW to bite people - all we do to train them is to teach them WHEN!
> 
> My ScH trainer once told me "That is a natural ScH" about a male dog I had who was a german import - sounded a lot to me as if he was bred to bite people (and also good in the other two aspects of ScH - obedience and tracking as well)!


Your description is inaccurate. I'm just pointing that out. If you care to believe that the dog is "bred" to bite, rather than a dog of solid nerve, and the proper drives, that's your right to believe it. I just want other participants in this post to read the truth. 

DFrost


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## 1der_girl (Aug 16, 2006)

I must say that I am very surprised to find such intense anti-pit sentiments on a GSD board. Our dogs also suffer from a bad reputation (not as bad as the pit for sure). Who here can honestly say that NOBODY has EVER snatched their child away from your GSD because "that dog will bite you!" or had someone at a park comment about your mean "police dog"?
I've met GSDs that can't be trusted, and pits and other bully-breed dogs who were bomb proof.
It's also possible that we should be wary of dogs belonging to ignorant people who know nothing about proper socialization and training... and for whatever reason, pitbull-type dogs are popular with that segment of the population at the current moment.
Just my thoughts.
~Aimee


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

DFrost said:


> Your description is inaccurate. I'm just pointing that out. If you care to believe that the dog is "bred" to bite, rather than a dog of solid nerve, and the proper drives, that's your right to believe it. I just want other participants in this post to read *the truth*. DFrost


*Thank goodness, we have you to tell all of us THE TRUTH! *

And also about the "proper drives" - just out of curiosity, would these be "Prey" and "Defense" drives? Wonder what those are the primary basis of - probably not Rally, huh?

And solid "nerve" - sort of like courage and a good discerning attitude?

I must also thank you for letting me believe what I believe - many Sch dog breeder breed their dogs to get dogs that are very good at biting. "Full deep grip" and all that. Even if you obviously don't seem to believe that they do select dogs for this.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

DFrost said:


> That's not a totally accurate statement. The dogs used in police work are not bred to "bite" people. they are bred to have the behaviors, drives and NERVE necessary to be trained to bite people. That is more than just a play on words. It's the training of a suitable dog that makes them bite, not the breeding.DFrost


So if they weren't "trained", then they wouldn't bite people?

I thought that GSD's and some other dogs were naturally protective and would bite people without any special training to bite? If they were bred to have the courage and temperament to do so. Are you suggesting that this is not true?

Just asking what you think?


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## Lesley1905 (Aug 25, 2010)

I'm sorry but it just makes me so mad when people are ignorant and think all pits are bad. People don't do enough research. They open their mouths before they actually educated themselves and base their opinions on what the media and some stupid rap star raps about. And I do think alot of it does deal with how you raise it. Yes, animals are animals first but for the most part it IS how you raise your dog. You can train almost any dog to be aggressive. Some dogs are cooky. My mothers 15lb mini schnauzer has been around many dogs before in his life and has never had an issue. Last week he was outside and charged the neighbors 50lb dog and went right for the throat. The other day I was walking my pitbull, zella, and the neighbors 5 lb maltese lunged at her and she hopped over the bushes to get away from it. Man...what an aggressive pitbull I have. 

And no, I would never leave any of my animals with any babies...not even my cat. Cats have been known to suffocate babies because they smell the milk on the babies mouth. 

I think people should just stop following others, listening to the media and educate themselves before they say their opinions on dogs they know nothing about. 

It is pretty sad that most people wrongfully identify a dog. There is a study I read that said most people say "Some pitbull or pitbull looking dog attacked the kid". They think any dog that is short, brindle, and/or muscular or a dog that has any of those characteristics is automatically a Pitbull. It could work the same way for GSD's. Alot of people confuse GSD's with Belgium Sheepdogs. Yes, it does sound rediculous. Us owners of GSD's know the breed standard like the back of our hands and would get offended at that statement. People who aren't educated in the breed don't know any better. That's how wrongfully identifying dogs works. 

Phewww I feel better now!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Deuce said:


> Interesting read, however before I even opened the link I knew that most would be from Pits. I, for one, am a huge advocate against the breed and personally do think they're nothing but trouble. I'm sure i'll receive an outcry of negative remarks to that statement but it's the truth which I always speak. I'm an attack victim, as are my children, of a Pit which belonged to my neighbor. I stand behind ASPCA's who euthanize any Pits who are brought in.


The problem with most statistics and dog bites etc, they NEVER provide the population of the breed itself with comparison of who is doing the biting. 

For instance, if poverty/poor communities tend to have a much higher bite incidence then it makes sense to consider what dogs are most popular in those communities, with those people. 

Pitts are popular, and when I say pitts, I am talking about bully breeds in general, breeds that the media, cops, shelters, witnesses will call pitts. Any of those dogs in the pictures. If there are 75 million dogs, 37.5 million are not going to be pit bulls. BUT, if they were, would it then make sense if pits and their mixes and their look alikes would have been the culprit in half of the incidents?

Ok, this comglameration of dogs and breeds that for the vast majority will just call pit bulls, what is their percentage in poor communities? I think there are more pit bulls than GSDs or Labs in the Ghetto. My guess is if you counted all the dogs in these communities, you could probably put pits on one end of the teeter totter and ALL THE REST on the other side and they thing would either even out or the pitts side would rest on the ground.

So if poverty plays a roll, and I do not believe it is because of the dogs themselves, but maybe because of attitudes and cultures, then does it make sense that pit bulls are listed in more attacks than other dogs?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Deuce said:


> Interesting read, however before I even opened the link I knew that most would be from Pits. I, for one, am a huge advocate against the breed and personally do think they're nothing but trouble. I'm sure i'll receive an outcry of negative remarks to that statement but it's the truth which I always speak. I'm an attack victim, as are my children, of a Pit which belonged to my neighbor. I stand behind ASPCA's who euthanize any Pits who are brought in.


I countered your post twice, partly because I USED to feel very negative about the breed. My thing is, what do they do FOR people, and why do we hear about them so often? So, I am understanding you negativity of the breed as I have been negative on it. But I do not get your reason why.

Have you ever fell on your bum roller skating? Did the skates go in the fire? I sprained my ankle really bad roller skating. 

Have you ever fallen off a bicycle? Has anyone that you have known ever been hit by a car riding a bicycle? Have you pressed your city council to ban bicycles. I busted up my shoulder and had pain in it for two years. I hit a wire under my throat and went over backwards and woke up with a cuncussion. My sister's shoe went into my front spokes and she fell backwards, and I went over the handlebars, and we were both in the hospital. My brother and my sister were hit by cars riding bicycles. The only reason one of my siblings or I did not DIE on a bicycle has been luck. 

Go swimming, boating, canoeing, driving down the road? 

Ok, 32 deaths in a years' time, and that INCLUDES incidents with pits. Yes this is only deaths. There are many, many bites, and many of them require an ER visit. 

Let me count my bites, HV listed for those requiring ER. 

Black Poodle -- at least six times same dog (I was a paper carrier)
small black mutt -- 1
Newfoundland -- 1
schnauzer --1 
GSD -- 1 Hand HV
GSD -- 1 Leg HV
GSD -- 1 hand Doctor's visit tetnus shot/antibiotics
Pit Bull -- none. 

So you are a survivor of an attack of pit bulls as are your children. You are alive? Are your children? Are you disfigured? Did you lose an arm, hand, face? 

I am sorry, one of those GSD bites took a year to heal. But I could not live my life without GSDs. 

I think you have a better chance getting injured or killed by giant rodents (deer) then dogs.


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

codmaster said:


> *Thank goodness, we have you to tell all of us THE TRUTH! *
> 
> .


You're welcome.

DFrost


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

codmaster said:


> So if they weren't "trained", then they wouldn't bite people?
> 
> I thought that GSD's and some other dogs were naturally protective and would bite people without any special training to bite? If they were bred to have the courage and temperament to do so. Are you suggesting that this is not true?
> 
> Just asking what you think?


Generally speaking, no they won't. Most people that deal with PPD, PSD's etc will tell you the same thing. Don't depend on an untrained dog to protect you. Most bites that occur with untrained dogs of most any breed are because of fear issues. Dogs with fear issues are not good candidates for police service work. I don't comment on schutzhund or other sports because I'm not involved in sport. 

DFrost


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## Lesley1905 (Aug 25, 2010)

selzer said:


> I countered your post twice, partly because I USED to feel very negative about the breed. My thing is, what do they do FOR people, and why do we hear about them so often? So, I am understanding you negativity of the breed as I have been negative on it. But I do not get your reason why.
> 
> Have you ever fell on your bum roller skating? Did the skates go in the fire? I sprained my ankle really bad roller skating.
> 
> ...


 
Nice to see someone that uses their head! I wish more people thought like you!


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

I am not a fan of Pit bull or mixes of. At least where I live, the VAST majority of the people that own them are young people who do drugs or engage in shady behavior, hang out on street corners, or stir up trouble. People use pits as a status symbol so to speak, breed them because puppies are cute, and that's about it. If you "want" to be tough, you need to own a pit or a mix of. You can probably guess how the dogs end up and how they behave towards strangers; such as me trying to take a peaceful walk. It's scary when a dog is lunging at the end of it's rusty chain about 5 feet from the sidewalk. It's too bad that they are bred so uncontrlled, and it's ruined the breed for me at least. I do understand it's how these dogs are raised and the amount of overbreeding. It's not the dog's fault, but it has caused me to dislike them; whatever the reason. When I see a pit or a mix, I don't think it's something I want to approach based on what I have seen personally in my area.

I do understand that the population of the breed is not disclosed, but there always seems to be a common few types of breeds I see in these statistics. Pit bull types, rotties, husky types, boxers, and mutts. I know as far as AKC ranking the GSD is very high but they don't seem to be topping the charts here, and I don't see alot of Labs and Goldens either.


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## irongrl (May 24, 2010)

selzer said:


> I countered your post twice, partly because I USED to feel very negative about the breed. My thing is, what do they do FOR people, and why do we hear about them so often? So, I am understanding you negativity of the breed as I have been negative on it. But I do not get your reason why.
> 
> Have you ever fell on your bum roller skating? Did the skates go in the fire? I sprained my ankle really bad roller skating.
> 
> ...


 
Great post!


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Lesley1905 said:


> I'm sorry but it just makes me so mad when people are ignorant and think all pits are bad. People don't do enough research. They open their mouths before they actually educated themselves and base their opinions on what the media and some stupid rap star raps about. And I do think alot of it does deal with how you raise it. Yes, animals are animals first but for the most part it IS how you raise your dog. You can train almost any dog to be aggressive. Some dogs are cooky. My mothers 15lb mini schnauzer has been around many dogs before in his life and has never had an issue. Last week he was outside and charged the neighbors 50lb dog and went right for the throat. The other day I was walking my pitbull, zella, and the neighbors 5 lb maltese lunged at her and she hopped over the bushes to get away from it. Man...what an aggressive pitbull I have.
> 
> And no, I would never leave any of my animals with any babies...not even my cat. Cats have been known to suffocate babies because they smell the milk on the babies mouth.
> 
> ...


I agree with you 100%. Sometime last year there was a newsreport about a dog attack, and the news and witnesses were saying it was a pitbull. A few days later they did a followup the dog turned out to be a Boxer. The dog was allowed to roam, the people in the the neighbor knew the dog was aggressive, and knew it roamed and didn't even bother to call Animal Control.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

selzer said:


> I countered your post twice, partly because I USED to feel very negative about the breed. My thing is, what do they do FOR people, and why do we hear about them so often? So, I am understanding you negativity of the breed as I have been negative on it. But I do not get your reason why.
> 
> Have you ever fell on your bum roller skating? Did the skates go in the fire? I sprained my ankle really bad roller skating.
> 
> ...


Excellent post.

Funny thing is, at my shelter, the nicest dogs are Pits or Pit Mixes.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

I don't know if most of you guys will believe this.. but some years ago I _hated_ 'pit bulls'.. no, I didn't know what a 'pit bull' really was other than this:









NO, that's not a pit bull but still, that was what came to mind. Because that's all I'd ever heard... I didn't even recognize that a dog who lived across the street was a pit bull, or one I always walked by and petted on walks. They were medium-sized sweet dogs, I just thought they were mutts. 

I just KNEW, however, that is was a pit bull when a dog attacked mine.. I screamed pit bull, I told AC a pit bull attacked my puppy.. Noo, it was a chow mix. It was even fluffy.

Thankfully I ran into one very awesome pit dog who made me rethink things and think FOR MYSELF. I decided I wasn't going to let the media and others think for me and form my opinion. I did my own researching... YEARS later look what I am. I'm an enthusiast of the breed I wished had been destroyed utterly. Now, if they were an unstable breed as a whole who needed to be culled, wouldn't I, already predjuduced against them, have continued to wish them death after my researching? I proved myself wrong and moved on from there.


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## Lesley1905 (Aug 25, 2010)

^^^I wish more people thought like you!


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## Lesley1905 (Aug 25, 2010)

Here's my girl


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Thank you Lesley. I'm very glad I did because they are a big passion of mine now.. Zella is just beautiful.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

The first pitbull I met in person(all I saw were ones one TV) was named Stella. She was a beautiful light brown color. Super sweet and sat on my lap.lol.

I am constantly asked if I am scared when I have to get into a kennel with a pitbull, my answer "Yes, just like all the other dogs, I am scared to be licked to death."


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## GSD Fan (Sep 20, 2010)

I'd like to comment on this part:



> 4) Understanding that if your dog shows signs of aggression, you must be a responsible owner and work with a trainer to solve the problem. A dog's aggression will not just "go away" without work and training...and as Karen Delise likes to say, an severe act of aggression by a dog isn't ever its first sign of aggression, but is most certainly its last.


Knowing my father, if I read this to him, he'd argue that the agression never really leaves the dog. 

I look at dog shows in which there are red zone cases and it makes me wonder: Does training just contain and control the aggression? Or can training alone get rid of aggression?

It's just things that I'm wondering about. Most you probably know the answers to those questions, but I don't.


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## 2CrazyDogs (Jan 19, 2011)

When I was 16 my oldest brother saved a boxer/pit mix from a neighbor he lived by that trained/raised fighting dogs. The neighbors were going to kill him because he got into a fight with one of the other dogs and almost killed it and my brother somehow managed to talk them into letting him have it (everyone in my family are HUGE animal lovers). Because he had pit in him he wasn't allowed to keep him at his complex so he convinced my mom to take him. He didn't tell her his story or anything about him except how "sweet and good" he was. Anyway, we all fell in love with him the instant he came home. He was the best dog we EVER had. My sister's kids would crawl all over him and he would sit there and lick them. Taking him on walks was the hardest thing ever and people would stay as far away from us as they could which always upset me. He was a total lover with people. When people first came to the door he would bark like crazy but once they were inside he would smother everyone with kisses. And I know for a fact that it's not just pitties that get a bad rap. I've lived in complexes that wouldn't even let boxers in because they couldn't tell the difference between them and pits (that's what the complex manager personally told me). It's sad...


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