# What is a hard dog



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Carmspack, here you go, as requested. 



> the discussion was on a different forum. I've tried to explain what a hard dog means to me but ultimately lacked articulation and words. If I had the chance to explain it in German it would have been much different but even then, they probably wouldn't have agreed with it. They thought I was trying to cope out when I said that I can't give them more of a definition than I already had and they were literally laughing at me, saying I wasn't qualified.
> 
> A hard dog, what I have learned over the years from my father is a dog that has strong nerves, drive, sound aggression, is resilient and doesn't feel pain. Even if you accidently mis-treat the dog, the dog won't be mad at you.
> 
> ...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I always understood a hard dog to be one who is solid - nervewise, and you could give a strong correction to and they would recover right away. Dubya was hard. I had been working with him to stop jumping up on me (bad habit I allowed), but I was going to have a surgery on my hand and did not want to get it injured. Well after the surgery the first thing he did was jump right up on that bad wrist with his horrible toenails. I did not even think, in a fluid motion, I grabbed 80 pounds of dog by his neck and back and and swung him up and into the fencing while yelling. 

I let him down and he looked at me, like, Oh yeah, you didn't want me to do that, ok. If I did that to one of my girls they would hide in their dog house and not even look at me. 

The dog was not aggressive - certainly not handler aggressive, it was just a dog you could hit over the head with a 2 by 4 and he would be like, cool, lets do that again. (No, never did that.)

It is something not easy to explain. 

Frodo was independent and dominant, but not hard. If you accidently stepped on his foot he would cry like a baby. He was really more of a fearful dog. 

Rushie was softer, but not bad character. He was not fearful, just very handler sensitive -- a slight word was all that was ever necessary in training him -- very compliant. I do not remember ever giving him a stiff correction because it was NEVER necessary so I do not know how well he would recover.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Sounds like a cesspool of a forum.

_a dog that has strong nerves, drive, sound aggression, is resilient and doesn't feel pain. Even if you accidently mis-treat the dog, the dog won't be mad at you.
_
I think your/your dad's definition is spot on. Although "doesn't feel pain" --do you mean, doesn't feel pain when in drive or is always rather blithe to pain?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

a hard dog has emotional integrity.

they are stalwart .

they are forgiving . they are resilient . 

there is a quiet , stately prescence about them -- sizing up a situation , and confident , competent to handle it appropriately 

they have mental stamina . will work through harsh and difficult situations , no rest till the job is finished , even overiding personal needs (tired , wet, too hot, thirsty) 

they are reliable , you can count on them. 

committed 

the thresholds are high -- will engage when necessary and will stay in the fight even when the pressure and fight increases in intensity.

a hard dog does not have to be overtly aggressive 

it has nothing to do with being handler aggressive

good start --

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Yikes, was it PDB? Haven't even lurked there in about a year.

I hope this doesn't completely take the thread off track but is a "hard dog" the same thing as when people say a "real dog" ? 
I will have to re read this thread... http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/schutzhund-training/146415-sport-vs-real-dog.html


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Carmen, 

I would say your definition encompasses more than just hardness--that a dog can be hard but not have all of those traits.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

sagelfn said:


> Yikes, was it PDB? Haven't even lurked there in about a year.
> 
> I hope this doesn't completely take the thread off track but is a "hard dog" the same thing as when people say a "real dog" ?
> I will have to re read this thread... http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/schutzhund-training/146415-sport-vs-real-dog.html


IMO, no. A dog can be real without hardness. And a dog can be sporty WITH hardness.

But either way, the dog is going to be better/stronger at what he is if he has hardness.

And a real dog without hardness often ends up acting/reacting in fear. And a sport dog with hardness may end up doing less well bc he senses that the fight is not serious therefore is it really worth his time? --because he can handle more "fight" than he is getting in the sport training.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Mrs K - I personally think your input is invaluable about these things - ESPECIALLY as you have that wonderful resource of your father!!!!! there have been a few v Barenfang dogs I admired tremendously (yes, I admit, on paper and photo! LOL) Wotan and Pilot come to mind....I desparately wanted a Wotan x Romy alten Wingertshaus puppy....but there were none available when I contacted them (years ago!!)....

Your fathers explanation is exactly what I think of as a 'hard' dog - both my Xito and Ufo dogs show hardness in this way! with no handler aggression ......

Stay here and talk to us and share your father's wisdom and knowledge - I, for one!, greatly appreciate it!

Lee


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## dOg (Jan 23, 2006)

uhm, just guessing here, but sounds like the peddb forum..?

Like the thoughts on hardness...and have seen old school ways before there was a new school too. But like someone mentioned, you may never know how hard a dog might be if ya never go there. 

Trust your gut, and your Dad,K


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

carmspack said:


> a hard dog has emotional integrity.
> 
> they are stalwart .
> 
> ...


Heh. Some people call that "stubbornness"... Carmen, would you say that there is a difference between "hard" and "stubborn", or is it two different ways of looking at the same thing?


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## TankGrrl66 (Jun 29, 2010)

I always thought hardness in a dog was the ability to deal with and recover from a correction/opposition?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Is it possible that the term has changed over the years and that to many old-timers or people who have learned from old-timers a hard dog is a specific type of dog while to the newer generations it describes more of a trait?


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

I probably simplify definitions, but I have always thought of hardness as a mental and physical toughness.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

of course there is a difference between hard and stubborn .

A hard dog is those things that I have said AND those things that Ms Blackthorn gsd said .

A hard dog can have great desire and joy to work -- Bernd Lierberg 
A stubborn dog can be hard , but can be really pig headed , hard to get to comply - Umsa Bungalow comes to mind as an example.

Carmen


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

carmspack said:


> of course there is a difference between hard and stubborn .
> 
> A hard dog is those things that I have said AND those things that Ms Blackthorn gsd said .
> 
> ...


Are you familiar with Pike von der Schafbachsmuehle an Basko vom Flughafenrand? 
Irus vom Foetzbachtal and Caro vom Allerswald?


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I think of it as a mental and physical resiliency to unpleasant experiences.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

why would I not be --- of course.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Mrs. K, it sounds to me like you were the victim of an ambush listener. This is a person who is not listening to you with an open mind, they are not seeking to learn anything from what you are saying. They are simply trying to find fault in what you are saying so that they can embarrass you or call you out on it. I am very sorry that you went through that experience.

*Don't let people like that chase you off of forums. Utilize the Block this Person option.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I think I know which forum Mrs. K was posting on, not the PDB but WDF? Too bad there is so much sniping and not enough openminded on the forums.


> Are you familiar with Pike von der Schafbachsmuehle an Basko vom Flughafenrand?
> Irus vom Foetzbachtal and Caro vom Allerswald?


My Karlo was named after Pikes daddy. I've watched this impressive routine several times, my Karlo's Great grandfather


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

carmspack said:


> A hard dog can have great desire and joy to work -- Bernd Lierberg
> A stubborn dog can be hard , but can be really pig headed , hard to get to comply - Umsa Bungalow comes to mind as an example.


The way I look at it, is that hardness and genetic obedience or "pack drive" are two different things that may or may not exist together. 

You can have a hard dog who has stubbornness, yet also has a strong desire to work with the handler. This would be a great dog to work with--to stubbornly persist in his duty, out of obedience drive as well as hunt/prey/defense etc. 

You can have a hard dog who is stubborn and couldn't care less about working with his handler--this could be a challenging dog to train, especially if the dog does not have prey or food drive.

What I want to know is... can you have a hard dog that is NOT stubborn, irrespective of genetic obedience? Stubborn being defined as persistent, single-minded, not easily swayed?

Am I making sense?


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

carmspack said:


> of course there is a difference between hard and stubborn .
> 
> A hard dog is those things that I have said AND those things that Ms Blackthorn gsd said .
> 
> ...


That's why I prefer to think of these type of definitions as more of a single trait that a general personality. The hardest dog I've owned was more of the first type and is what I generally think of. Someone else could have more personal experience with the second type and that is what they think of.

I *think* that is where a lot of our problems come from here when we try and define terms. We have a dog or two that we think of and tend to think of the total package then just that trait. 

Does that make any sense?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Betty said:


> That's why I prefer to think of these type of definitions as more of a single trait that a general personality. The hardest dog I've owned was more of the first type and is what I generally think of. Someone else could have more personal experience with the second type and that is what they think of.
> 
> I *think* that is where a lot of our problems come from here when we try and define terms. We have a dog or two that we think of and tend to think of the total package then just that trait.
> 
> Does that make any sense?


It's not just a single trait. In order to be hard. a dog has to have several different traits such as resilience, pain resistence, forgiving... etc. everything that has been named before to truly be a hard dog. 

Just like a hard dog can be easy to handle or handler aggressive it can also be stubborn or not stubborn, which would also play into the "how hard is the dog to handle" category. A hard dog is not necessarily a hard to handle dog.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> I think I know which forum Mrs. K was posting on, not the PDB but WDF? Too bad there is so much sniping and not enough openminded on the forums.
> 
> My Karlo was named after Pikes daddy. I've watched this impressive routine several times, my Karlo's Great grandfather Pike von der Schafbachmuhle - Protection - YouTube


Karlo has Basko in the Pedigree, he was one of the most intense dogs out there. Went through many different hands and barely anyone could handle him. He is referred to as "Killer" because of that. Also, was quite a few don't notice is that there is actually incest in that line via Blanka vom Koerbelbach. Blankas parents are Caro vom Allerswald and Friga vom Allerswald. Both dogs mother is Quicke vom Itztal.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

Mrs.K said:


> It's not just a single trait. In order to be hard. a dog has to have several different traits such as resilience, pain resistence, forgiving... etc. everything that has been named before to truly be a hard dog.
> 
> Just like a hard dog can be easy to handle or handler aggressive it can also be stubborn or not stubborn, which would also play into the "how hard is the dog to handle" category. A hard dog is not necessarily a hard to handle dog.


For me that are all things a dog would have to have in order to be physically and mentally tough.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

Brings up another point, is a hard dog forgiving or is it just not that big of a deal to begin with?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Betty said:


> For me that are all things a dog would have to have in order to be physically and mentally tough.


But isn't that sort of the same thing as "hard" just using a different word?

Isn't toughness just a synonym for hardness?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Betty said:


> Brings up another point, is a hard dog forgiving or is it just not that big of a deal to begin with?


Good point. I'd say it's overlapping each other. It's not that big of a deal, therefor it's forgiven.

Great topic so far, by the way


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

Physically and mentally tough is my definition of a hard dog...... So I guess so.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I do not know that dogs forgive, that seems like a really complex concept, but they come back to us perhaps are driven back to us, interesting. I think maybe I will start a thread about trust and forgiveness from a hard dog, soft dog stand point.


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## Kay Spencer (8 mo ago)

Mrs.K said:


> Carmspack, here you go, as requested.


Have you ever seen that movies with Sandra Bullock that dog reminds me of the kids she took in, Big and Gentle quite and shy you can hurt him all you want and he would keep coming back for aproval but don't hurt who protects him and who he love's AND THE MOVIE WATER BOY


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

This thread is 11 years old and the person you quoted is no longer a member.


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