# wierd behaviour just started



## robpethers (Dec 20, 2009)

My dog, Sargent, 3yrs has some new wrinkles. I am new here and hope you can help. He has obediance training and listens to me well, not as much my wife and kids. He has never been aggresive until recently, he went after my 10 yr old daughter when she was rough housing with a sibling and bit her friend a week later when they were playing. Her friend freaked out and this may have contributed. I figured the other was protecting. He did no damage other than scratches and at 110lbs it could have been worse if he chose. The thing is he has also started "back talking" lately[for lack of better wording]. It has happened when he seems to not want to go in his crate, or is in his crate and we look in on him and occasionally when hes out. This is not an every time thing or even regular. It sounds kinda like growling,whining and talking all together. He does not show his teeth and I dont think he is really snapping, and generally looks away or sideways. It is intimidating and although I think I can deal with him when hes like this I'm concerned for wife and kids. Any ideas?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Wecome to the Board!!

What are you doing for mental and physical exercise? 
Does your family practice NILIF with him?
I would have your wife and children take a bit more stance of being "in charge" with him. 
They should give him his meals, and do some obedience daily with him, so he will see them differently. And if they are showing that they are intimidated by his act, then of course he knows he gets away with it and will try to correct my daughter.
As far as the kids roughhousing, my kids do that too, and it will ramp up the dogs, I try to keep the dogs with me, or crated when friends are over. 
If my teenage drama queen starts in with her show, Onyx has a hard time with it.


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## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

Ditto what onyx'girl said.


When your dog went after the kids; he probably thought they were fighting and he was probably trying to break it up and protect your child. I doubt he would deliberately hurt a nonaggressive 10-year-old; but a GSD can easily rip clothes and break skin. It sounds like what you're dog was doing was a variation of the herding instinct. It's also possible that he realized that they were playing; and he just wanted to join in with the play. Dogs typically play or heard by nipping and is not acceptable for them to play with people in that manner. He probably just needs to learn doggy and people etiquette and rank. This is difficult to do so you might want to just keep them separated from kids that are roughhousing or playing tag or other running and contact sports.

The "back talking" might be nothing; but it might be an indication that you and your family need to be more dominant and assert your family's position as leadership. You might want to discourage the "back talking". When he does it again; you might want to put him into a submissive position and hold him there until he is calm and relaxed submissive.

As precaution you might want to occasionally put the dog in a submissive position until he is relaxed and calm and submissive while you your family members and let other family members take a dominant position why your dog is submitting. Hopefully you can do it without a struggle so it is a friendly happy experience for him. Let him know that he is loved; but let him know that his family members out rank him.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Putting a dog in a submissive position other than a platz or a sit, will only cause negativity and sometimes ramp up a reaction. 
If you are talking about an "alpha roll", I don't agree.
Clicker or marker training goes much farther than dominating. 
Re-directing the behavior, and positive methods work, making a dog submit may appear to work at the moment, but is not the proper foundation to change the behavior.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

welcome. your dog went after your daughter and then bit
a friend. i would put him away when the children are playing
or when people are visiting. if you want him to be in a room with
other people leash him. slowly start working on his aggression.

the talking back; growling, whining and talking all together. i would
closely monitor this behaviour. maybe you need to take Sargent
to the Vet to make sure he's not feeling any discomfort.

keep a close watch on your dog, he bit 2 children. try to get a good read on the talking back. make sure it's not aggression
or a warning to stay away.

good luck.


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## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: onyx'girlPutting a dog in a submissive position other than a platz or a sit, will only cause negativity and sometimes ramp up a reaction.
> If you are talking about an "alpha roll", I don't agree.


I disagree. I've worked non-professionally with dogs for over 40 years and have never had it causes negativity. A dog may initially resist, so it may initially try to ramp up the reaction but you can't let the dog win, if you do it will only make things worse; that's why I've always made sure I won. My vet was a retired vet from the US military; for decades in the military he worked professionally largely with German Shepherds and other large dogs and he even used the same technique on his own dogs.

I recently had a friend that has a Dogo Argentino that was starting to get aggressive, I taught my friend how to put his dog in a submissive position when it was showing signs of aggression and ever since the dog has not been a problem. It's best if it's done in a gentle loving assertive way; if it's done in an aggressive way the dog might act defensively and the discipline may not work. It's stimulating what dogs do to other dogs. It's stimulating what wolves due to other wolves.

Why would something that has worked for decades not work now?

The first dog I had was a trained GSD guard dog. My grandfather had a heart attack or a stroke and we got the dog. He got the dog because he was a metal shop foreman for the Michigan state prison system and he had many threats on his life. Apparently some of them were Al Capone’s thugs.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I don't think it is about "winning". It is about redirecting a behavior.
Old school methods may have worked, but there are better ways to get a dog to change a behavior because they want to, not because they are forced to. 
Dog training has many different facets, and all are individual, what technique may work for one personality, may not for another, but to me it isn't about winning or losing, just having a happy well adjusted companion. I wouldn't suggest alpha rolling a dog to get them to submit, there are better options.
In this case, it is the relationship Sarge has with the wife and children, how would her or them putting the dog in that position help? I think it could turn into a dangerous situation and there are much better ways to handle this problem they are having.


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## robpethers (Dec 20, 2009)

Thank you all. I will take him to the vet, he has a knickle size lump on his upper shoulder that needs to be looked anyway. It doesnt appear to cause pain but I want the vet to look at it. The alpha role has always worked well for me with dogs and chickens lol [roosters] however, each person is differant as are dogs and if you dont do it right or consistantly the lesson could be painful with such a large dog. I do not believe its just the "alpha" thing either, I have found that with large dogs, horses or other powerful animals that it is best to keep the natural fear and/or respect for humans intact. After all some dogs and horses ect have a natural personality to be "alpha", I have seen many trainers and owners get seriously injured by lowering themselves into an animals world and mimicing their behavior, a freind of mine actually got his nose bit clean off by a horse he owned for 7 years! I do not beat any of my animals but I do not let them think of me as another dog, horse ect. after all these animals use methods of challenging for dominance that I dont want them to try on me lol! 
I do use "language" they understand and am willing to try the submissive position thing if you let me know what position to put him in that will work best for the wife and kids. We use a pinch collar on him as recomended by our vet and obediance trainer, they taught us the correct method without being to harsh and the vet showed me autopsy photos of the damage choke collars or harsh pinch collar use can do. Thanks for all your imput.


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## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: onyx'girlI don't think it is about "winning". It is about redirecting a behavior.
> Old school methods may have worked, but there are better ways to get a dog to change a behavior because they want to, not because they are forced to.


Winning “domination” is a very important to redirect behavior. Dominating a dog especially important in this type of situation is more should be more effective because it acts on and reinforces instincts and behavior that the dog should have learned as a puppy.

If the dog is going for your child’s throat, what do you think would be more effective:

1: Physically restraining the dog and putting it into a submissive position to stop the attack and to teach it thet that behavior is not acceptable?

2: Or do you hope that you can redirect the attack by offering the dog a ball to play with?

Unlike you I’m not telling other people that other techniques shouldn’t be used. I’m fine with other techniques being used but particularly in this situation it is very important that the dog knows its place in the household.

I think the most important need in this case is to establish rank, rules boundaries and limitations. ( dominating your dog is just part of that strategy).

I think the second most important thing to do to redirect the behavior is to give the dog a job to do. Play IE: Frisbee, ball, or get some saddlebags and weigh down the dog a little and take it on walks or better yet rollerblading. (The dog whisperer often wears rollerblades and has the dog pull him around the neighborhood to make the dog work to burn up the energy and frustration) (a technique I use is to have a remote control car and I have the dog run around and chased the car until she’s tired)

I would avoid games like wrestling, tug a war; with the dog.

I would try to keep the dog away from the children especially when they are running; or physically playing. I would instruct the children to be careful not to run, play tag, fight, or make sudden movements around the dog. Make sure that your children know not to tease or be abusive of your dog.

If you’re not a strong leader a dog and if there isn’t an established hierarchy the dog may vie for power/control. If there isn’t a good established hierarchy it can be very dangerous.

It’s important to keep your dog exercise and to make it think it has a job to do or at least keep it so occupied with play that it doesn’t become frustrated and look for a job to do on its own. German shepherds are worked dogs if you don’t give them a job to do, oftain they instinctively will try to do their job of herding and of protection this can go awry if there is kids running and playing.

IIRC German shepherds committed most of the documented bites in the United States. They are a breed that have to be taken especially seriously. I would hate to see anyone get hurt or sued or to see the dog have to be put down.

If you have a dog that is excessively alpha you may have to physically put the dog into a submissive position. It shouldn’t be violent and/or aggressive like most of the people that are protesting against it are trying to stereotype. Sure there are probably are some people that get excessively physical. It shouldn’t be done in a way that terrorizes or significantly hurts the dog. At first it might hurt his dignity but after he surrenders there will probably be very little if ever need to physically force the situation again. After they submit I typically give them praise for submitting. Some of the trainers try to stereotype people that physically use the alpha roll as being so violent that they grab their dog by the neck and pick them up into the air. That’s obviously not what I’m talking about; I wouldn’t do that to a dog and even if I wanted to I have a broken back and couldn’t. 


The only time that I know that it is necessary and effective to pick up a dog by the scruff is if it is like a pitbull that is latched onto another dog with its jaws. Knock on wood. So far I’ve never had a situation where I needed to use that; but like I said I couldn’t even do that if I wanted to.



> Originally Posted By: robpethersThank you all. I will take him to the vet, he has a knickle size lump on his upper shoulder that needs to be looked anyway.


Good luck. I hope it’s trivial.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Some alpha articles:

http://www.4pawsu.com/leaderadv.htm

http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001/dominance.htm

http://www.4pawsu.com/alpharoll.pdf

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubb...212#Post1298846

http://4pawsu.com/pmdominance.htm



> Originally Posted By: robpethers....... am willing to try the submissive position thing if you let me know what position to put him in that will work best for the wife and kids......


Please don't try an alpha role or take that dominance thing too seriously. NILF will work, with consistent, fair, firm, and benevolent leadership. Forceful and aggressive techniques with a dog that may already be challenging is usually going to make things worse.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree with Lisa. It's a good way to get your face bit or some other part bit off.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> Quote:Unlike you I’m not telling other people that other techniques shouldn’t be used. I’m fine with other techniques being used but particularly in this situation it is very important that the dog knows its place in the household.


I am not telling other people other tecniques shouldn't be used, but in THIS case an alpha roll will NOT help the relationship the wife and children have with Sarge.
They need to build a relationship/bond with him. Plain and simple...


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Yes to what Jane is saying. 

Glad you are taking him to the vet. You never know. 

1. Absolutely Sarge should be kept separated when the kids are over. We have no idea if his prey drive is kicking in or what. It might not be any kind of aggression whatsoever, just yeeee-haaaaaw! Time to play.

2. NILIF and a nice, positive based training class will help to build that bond. There are two websites with certified trainers. I would also check out the Volhard method. 
http://www.apdt.com
http://www.ccpdt.org
http://www.volhard.com
He wants you to lead him. 

3. Malamute people I know say their dogs "alpha peak" at this age. They said they always get calls to take young, unneutered male Mals who have subtly begun to expand their territory. You can bet they aren't rolling those big boys! They use the relationship with the dog to help change the behavior. They have to use their heads and not their bodies to do so. They don't get caught up in the alpha stuff either - they say they don't care about it and that transfers to the dog. 

4. Clickers! I love clickers! I don't use them well, I can only do a little with them, but wow does a dog want to work with and for you with those stupid little things! I want to try one on my nephew who is 1 - I was doing some basic obedience with him the other day and wow, what a great response! (seriously-I know-sicko!) Anyway, I have a Chow-BC mix who likes to do things her way (I call her Liza Minnelli because she's flashy like that). She would wander all over the place during obedience class heeling-she'd do circles, do-se-dos...it was like a dance routine! I get out the clicker and she's military in her obedience! It's bizarre but very cool. 
http://www.clickertraining.com
anyone else got good sites for the clicker?

Once you find a good, calming, positive trainer who can teach the dog and help him learn, not just comply, involve the family. 

Good luck!


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