# "Typical GSD behavior??"



## Papanapa (Mar 1, 2008)

After obedience class last night I heard two of the instructors talking about GSD's. They seemed to differ on their opinions of the breed.

Keep in mind this was about my Marley. Marley wants nothing to do with any of the other people or dogs. She will bark at the dogs that try to get too close and if people try to pet her she will switch from my left side to my right and then sit there instead.

One instructor said that this was typical of a GSD. "They don't ask nor want people or dogs in their space."

The other instructor said that I need to get Marley to where she loves attention from everyone and wants to play with all the other dogs.

First instructor says, " If she wanted a dog that loves everyone and wants to play all the time she would have got a lab."

Thoughts???


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

A typical adult gsd is aloof to (human) strangers. However, your dog is still a pup and it sounds like she's somewhat fearful. I've had several gsds that were aloof and they just ignored people they didn't know. How is she when people come to your house or out on the street? 

The barking at other dogs is not typical for a gsd. That is typical of a dog that is fearful and needs more positive socialization with other dogs. I have seen dog aggressive or dog reactive gsds but it not typical of the breed nor would it be a desirable trait in breeding.


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## Papanapa (Mar 1, 2008)

Marley seems fearful to me. She is fine if she is the one approaching at obedience but if someone comes at her she acts "scared". The barking at the dogs is driving me crazy. I am hoping that as time goes by she will get better with that one.

Home is a totally different story. She LOVES everyone. The cable guys came in the house and Marley was licking them, bringing them her ball, following them and laying at their feet while they worked. This is what she does with anyone that enters our house. Stranger or not.

She seems to exhibit fearful behaviors while at class. 

I wanted opinions because I want to be the one making decisions on how to handle these situations. (with you guys all helping me...


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

my dog is super friendly with people and other animals. i don't know what typical GSD behavior is. i do know what the typical behavior of a well trained and highly socialized dog is.


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## Papanapa (Mar 1, 2008)

I guess "highly socialized" is my problem. 

Marley was 8 weeks old when we got her. Since that time she immediately started attending softball games 4-6 times a week for three months. We then immediately went into cheerleading season. This meant Marley was at the park with kids and dogs again for the next 4 months. Again 4-6 times a week. 

That took us to when Marley was 9 months old. Winter set in at that time. (November December January) Her only socialization at this time was riding in the car with me to drop off and pick up kids (again 4-6 times a week). I would get her out of the car and walk her on her leash around the kids before and after practice.

We then started Obedience in January. 

I have NEVER seen her shy away from a person or dog EVER until the first obedience class. 

Opinions on this behavior?? Corrections I could make??


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Does she interact with a lot of other dogs? It may be that she's just unsure of herself in the class environment. One thing you could do is to go a little early and do some OB with her off to the side. Be sure to set her up for success and use lots of yummy rewards. It sounds like you just might need to change her association to the place. 

The barking at other dogs may also be excitement. Rafi does that sometimes and it's because he REALLY wants to see the other dog and play with them. What is her body language like?


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I don't know if there is a "typical" GSD. As Ruth said, a lot of them are aloof with strangers but aloof is different from scared. And some are social butterflies like the last two fosters I've had (both working lines, if that makes any difference.) 

Obedience classes are pretty stressful for some dogs - lots of people sounds, other dogs, and total smell overload. But if Marley is okay with new people and dogs in other contexts (like on her own turf) then there's no reason that she can't learn to be the same way at obedience class.


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## Papanapa (Mar 1, 2008)

Ok. Now I also have two different instructors giving different advice.

Ex: Marley and I walk into the building 1/2 hour before class. I walk up and talk to some people who have non reactive dogs. They hold their dogs close to them and Marley is acting fine. Not totally interested but not barking either. I feed her treats and all is good.

THEN: another dog walks by or she just spots a dog somewhere and she starts barking. 

One instructor says "Tug her hard towards you and tell her NO BARK"

Second instructor says "Say, watch me and once she looks at you (a redirect) give her a treat.

What says you?????


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## Papanapa (Mar 1, 2008)

Body language:

She will start barking at the dog and lunging forward and back. Sort of like a hop?? The bark sounds ferocious but she is not trying to pull me towards them to bite. She doesn't jerk the leash on me or anything. Just hop forward, hop back, side to side, bark bark bark!!!


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Redirect and reward! Sounds like they need to get their act together around there!


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

I agree redirect. That is unfortunate they are giving conflicting advice! That can make a class pretty confusing!

I would work on approaching other non-reactive dogs to work on her reaction to seeing a dog as well. I would try to let her meet the dogs and interact (as long as she can do that safely). 

Have you let her approach any dogs in class?


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## Papanapa (Mar 1, 2008)

Ok. So you are saying no jerk on the leash? She is on a chock collar for classes as she is one year old now. (well she will be in one week)

One wants me to jerk on the leash and tell her NO BARK

The other says NO JERK and just say her name and reward when she focuses back on me.

Please clarify for me which one you think I should do??

I hope I am not being a pain, I am continuing on with Obedience 2 in two weeks and would like to keep going with classes continually because it is fun for her and me.


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## Papanapa (Mar 1, 2008)

I do let her approach other dogs since she is not aggressive in her approach as far as growling or biting. She just sniffs their butts









There are some nice people there who noticed how she was acting and approached me and told me there dogs would just sit and let Marley sniff them and go at her own pace. We have been working on this before every class.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i've read they can go through fear periods. maybe you're misreading the behaviour. maybe it's "i'm happy and barking to say hello".


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: ShellyG
> 
> One instructor said that this was typical of a GSD. "They don't ask nor want people or dogs in their space."
> 
> ...


This person is 100% correct.


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## Papanapa (Mar 1, 2008)

I could be misreading it. She just sounds like such a big girl and the instructors directions are not helping me. I know I want to continue greeting non reactive dogs and exposing her to all the dogs over and over. I am using some good good treats and saving them just for class.


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## EJQ (May 13, 2003)

I’ll go ahead and say that a lot depends upon the individual dog.

In all my years around GSDs I do recognize most of their common characteristics, behaviors and reactions but I’m still not sure what a typical GSD might be.

It sounds to me that up to the point of obedience class your puppy was getting a terrific amount of socialization. (keep in mind that she is still a puppy) Since her attitude seems to have changed as a result of the class, I would look to the class for the source of her change. I agree with * pupresq* in that the class is quite a change over all of her previous exposures. More stress and more sensory overload.

IMHO you need to make this as happy an experience as all of those other things that she enjoys so much. Are the instructors using positive reinforcement? Lots of praise and food rewards during class.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Getting her attention by making yourself more exciting (with a yummy treat) is much more effective than jerking on her collar. I would keep things really positive and make sure she understands what you want from her. 

I'm also surprised that they allow you to use a choke chain! Did they show you how to use it in class? Around here none of the trainer classes uses those anymore. It's all front clip harnesses which I prefer because if they pull forward it actually pulls them back toward you. 

I've had gsds for 22 years and Rafi is the first I've trained almost exclusively by using reward based, fun training. It has worked SO well! Today I walked him part way home from the park off leash in a heel position.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: BlackGSD
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: ShellyG
> ...


The first instructor is right.

My Morgan doesn't want other dogs in her space either. She doesn't bark and lunge though, never has. She'll lift a lip, if that doesn't get the other dog's attention, she'll growl. She doesn't do it with dogs she's comfortable with, if she's met a dog a few times, she's okay with them being near her. She is not fear aggressive, she's just plain aggressive.


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## Papanapa (Mar 1, 2008)

The choke chain is required in the class. There are 4 puppies that are 6 months old using it too. 

ALSO NOTE:

One instructor says use treats constantly and lavishly. Give them a treat for EVERY thing they do that is good and right.

Another instructor says use treats sparingly. We should be using praise more than treats.

ADVICE on this would be greatly appreciated. I have no problem standing up to an instructor and telling them what I think is best for my Marley but I want to get a feel for what is right first.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

As I said earlier, they need to get their act together. I would point out that they are giving out completely different advice and that it is confusing for people and this will result in confusion for the dogs as well! 

I like to use treats in a setting like OB classes or in any new setting or to teach a new command. Once the dog has it down then I fade the treats. I used treats initially a lot with Rafi and now just use them occasionally. I use his ball as a reward most of the time now. There is nothing wrong with using lots of treats though! You want your dog motivated and feeling confident. That's what reward based training is all about. 

The last class I took that required a choke chain was 22 years ago!







Most places I know of now would make you take it off if you came into class with one.


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

BowWowMeow great post. 

These instructors should be telling you the same thing. Treats (really good ones!) to teach commands, and fade out as they become solid. If your dog can perform the command at least 9 out of 10 times you are solid and should be moving on.

In my opinion giving a correction to any dog aggression or overstimulation is going to make matters worse. You want to equate others dogs to good things, not corrections, and can lead to a worse situation. So I would recommend the "watch me" command and treat. I have found that a head collar (I like the controlease, not gentle leader) is really effective for these situations as well.

Since you are using choke collars I would assume that the trainer telling you to give her a correction would be the lead trainer.
Using a positive reinforcement and a choke doesn't make sense to me. 

Honestly, if they aren't answering these questions for you, or providing you with this knowledge during class, I would ask for a refund or at least approach them about it.

Is there another training class you could attend?

ps. I think clicker training for this situation could be very helpful and effective


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## Papanapa (Mar 1, 2008)

Thank you Ruth. I felt that treating Marley made her so excited to perform each command for me. I did tell the instructor last night that they were giving out conflicting advice and that I was going to do my own research and use what I felt was best for Marley and me.

Marley rarely needs any correction with the collar in class. I usually say eh eh and she falls back into heel position nicely. I wasn't aware that choke chains were so old fashioned. (I am relatively new at this..)

Also, I still need to hear opinions on how to treat her barking at other dogs.

Jerk the collar? and say No Bark

Call her name and once she focuses on me, treat?


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## Papanapa (Mar 1, 2008)

MTAussie thank you for posting.

I am definitely going to go with the positive only right now. No pulling on her leash and correcting her. I will refocus her and give treats.

I am not sure if this is a new teacher or not. The one giving me the same advice as you on this board has been there forever. That is going to be our instructor for OBedience 2 so I just need to get through this class (2 more weeks) and I have the "good" instructor again.

THANK YOU for the advice. I want to get this right.


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

Good luck Shelly, and kudos to you for your dedication to Marley. I am glad your next class will be with the other trainer!


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: ShellyGAfter obedience class last night I heard two of the instructors talking about GSD's. They seemed to differ on their opinions of the breed.
> 
> Keep in mind this was about my Marley. Marley wants nothing to do with any of the other people or dogs. She will bark at the dogs that try to get too close and if people try to pet her she will switch from my left side to my right and then sit there instead.
> 
> ...



Well, I've always thought that GSDs were supposed to be "aloof" however when I thought more about it I realized most of the ones I know are very people-friendly and love to play with people/other dogs. I was thinking about this because I have been paying close attention to Bianca's reaction to other people/dogs since I recently adopted her and I wanted to have her be a therapy dog. She is very alert and keeps an eye on strangers when we are out. However if someone comes up and asks to pet her, she will wag her tail and then lick them if they offer a hand (or face, if it's a small enough kid!). When I introduced her to my friends she mostly leaned against them and solicited petting the first time she met them. When she sees other dogs out on walks she raises her hackles (sometimes, not every time) but then she wags her tail and greets them if they are allowed to approach her.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I agree. I don't think the first instructor is correct - especially not when it comes to other dogs. As Ruth said - being wary of other dogs is not a GSD breed characteristic. And the main thing, as I said before, is that there is a BIG difference between a dog that is standoffish and doesn't want strange people/dogs in her space and a dog that is afraid. The fact that Marley is giving you one set of behaviors with strangers at home and a different set in class as well as the fact that she's fine with some dogs in class but going out of her way to be snarky at others is a dead giveaway that your gut is correct and this is not a breed thing, this is circumstantial fearfulness. 

I am going to add my vote for the redirect and treat. I am not a positive only trainer and when I became a trainer for my ASPCA 18 years ago was taught to use a combination of treats and leash corrections using a choke chain, so very similar to what these folks have going on. It CAN work but since then I've found a lot of things that work better. Clicker training is a big one! I will always start with a positive based technique but especially when you're talking about a fear response. She sounds like a very intelligent and responsive dog and I really think that once she gets some practice redirecting and starts feeling more comfortable in class generally you're going to see your old happy social dog again.


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## Papanapa (Mar 1, 2008)

Thank you pupresq. I feel better about the positive technique too. 

I am going to have to really work at this with her. I want my old Marley back....


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Kudos to you for recognizing it for what it is.







How many times have we seen folks on this board or out in the world who mistake fearfulness for "protectiveness" or "dominance." But it's only when you figure out what's really going on that you can solve the problem. I would say probably 80% or more of the cases I evaluate where the dog is supposedly being "overly protective" or "wanting to be boss" the dog is actually a. scared and b. confused. Once the handler helps them understand the desirable behavior and sets them up for success, the dogs do great. The fact that she's already okay with some nonreactive dogs in the class is a huge first step. 

IMO the worst thing you can do with a dog like that is give a scary correction that just reinforces in their mind that these things are something to be afraid of. She sounds like she's eager to please, so it's just going to be a matter of helping her understand what you want and that she's safe in class.


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## Papanapa (Mar 1, 2008)

Marley is definitely not a dominant or aggressive dog. She may look like it to other people at the class when she is barking but I do believe this is fear. 

She is a "flight" dog. She barks and then flees which shows me fear. I am hoping that conditioning her with the calm dogs will help us move on to more reactive dogs eventually. 

The advice on this post has been invaluable to me. Thank you all.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Here's my take on things: Marley sound not only fearful, but kinda eager/excited, too! I would do as much POSITIVES with her as possible. Another dog just entered this stimulating class building? Look at Mama-- here's a treat for focus! Loose leash! Heel by me! GREAT job-- have a treat for more focus!









*HOWEVER: Keep your praise low and calm and soothing. *No excited happy yippie praise-- _she is stimulated enough in this setting._ *Stroke her soothingly and warmly with your words.* "Fiiiiiiinnnnne.... fiiiiiinnnnne...." (or whatever word you use with her) It should feel like warm, soothing stroking .. while you gaze lovingly into her warm brown eyes.

She's still tense and zippy? That's okay! You are using positives-- treats and _calm, soothing praise_. You have her on a _loose lead_. You are doing same ole, same ole rutines she already knows. In time, the overexcited barking will lessen!


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

After a while of this, a new person or dog will enter, and she'll look to you: 

"Mom, MOM!! What's it gonna be, huh? Huh? A sit? A down? I can heel, ya know! Wassit gonna BE, Ma? Huh? I gonna earn my loving praise? Gonna earn my treat? Ma! I'm givin' great FOCUS here!"


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## Lola1969 (Mar 6, 2007)

I have a pretty shy/fearful GSD although he has been getting better as he's gotten older. He would get very stressed in a traditional obedience class indoor training ring setting - so many noises, smells, sensory overload.

The funny thing is though that we have since switched to an obedience class that does all of its training outside - in parks, at malls, etc. and he is much more confident in this situation. Not sure why as I would think that there would be just as much noise, smell, etc.

It just seems that the obedience ring is stressing the puppy out for some reason. Ozzy does much better outside of a traditional training environment.


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## mother7 (Feb 10, 2009)

I've just read thru this thread and just want to say I am learning so much. I love getting to read about different situations and how to respond. I feel like the more I read, the more I will know so that when I come across something simular with my puppy, I will already have a good idea of what's going on or how to react.

This site is so helpful and everyone is so great about sharing their knowledge/experiences.

Thanks Ya'll!
kris


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: ShellyGOne instructor said that this was typical of a GSD. "They don't ask nor want people or dogs in their space."
> 
> The other instructor said that I need to get Marley to where she loves attention from everyone and wants to play with all the other dogs.
> 
> ...


Funny, we were just discussing this in Mausers class last Saturday.

It's him, a Boxer, a Lab, a Golden and a Bassett. One of the things were work on is Greeting People. As with most of the exercises I do it slightly differently. The instructor has people walk up to the puppy, tell them to Sit and then pet them. I have people walk up to Mauser, *I* tell him to Sit and then tell them they can pet him.

The other pups can hardly contain themselves - they want to jump up and lick everyone, especially the kids. Mauser just sits there and accepts the attention. The only time he moved was when one of the kids was hugging him. Mauser simply got up and moved away from the kid. The instructor had us do it again while the whole class watched and explained why dogs do this and what it means. He had had enough of the hugging or was uncomfortable with it and decided to put a stop to it.

Someone in the class asked how I got Mauser to be so well behaved in greeting people.







I told them it was a breed thing. GSDs _*allow*_ you to pet them. With Riggs you always felt he was lowering himself to the common people's level to allow them the pleasure of his company.









IMHO a solid temp'd GSD should not have a problem with another dog being near them. Invading personal space (crowding, jamming noses in private places, etc.) is a different matter.

From what I've read I agree - Marley sounds fearful/reactive.

Any chance you can get together with someone that has a VERY stable dog and let them together - off leash? Sometimes the leash can cause the problems.

I would also get both instructors together before the next class and tell them they are causing problems by giving you conflicting instructions.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Lauri & The Gang
> Mauser just sits there and accepts the attention. The only time he moved was when one of the kids was hugging him. Mauser simply got up and moved away from the kid. The instructor had us do it again while the whole class watched and explained why dogs do this and what it means. He had had enough of the hugging or was uncomfortable with it and decided to put a stop to it.
> 
> IMHO a solid temp'd GSD should not have a problem with another dog being near them. Invading personal space (crowding, jamming noses in private places, etc.) is a different matter.


And this is how a GSD "should" be. They aren't Labs or Goldens, they shouldn't have to LIKE other people or dogs being in their faces. Not being fearfull or aggressive is enough, they don't need to be "friends" will every strange dog or human they meet.

Topics like this always remind me of folks that get on the "dogs are descended from wolves" kick. Do folks know what wolves do to other canines that aren't a member of the pack? They either run it off or KILL it. They don't play with them! As long as my DOGS aren't trying to go after a strange dog (OR freaking out trying to get away from it), that is good enough for me.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Lauri, ideal advice about both having this dog meet stable calm dogs off lead... and in telling the instructors that the conflicting advice IS a real problem!

Lauri, my last GSD was like Mauser when greeting folks. That's a WONDERFUL temperament in Mauser!!







My current one (Grimm) wants to rapidfire kiss, squiggly-snuggle, etc and has trouble controling his affection upon meeting people. Is this how they repelled folks from trying to cross the Czech/East German border?


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

Shelly, something I would encourage you to do is to observe your dog to see what sort of signals she gives just prior to lunging and barking. The best thing to do is redirect her BEFORE she barks. So when she tenses, or stops and stares, or lifts her head up stiffly (whatever she does right before she barks), thats the time to cheerfully say "Hey, Marley! Let's go over here and do a sit!" while you quickly back away, encouraging her to follow and then rewarding the following and the sitting.

If you redirect every time she barks, she may learn to bark in order to get you to interact and reward her. The redirect/reward may be taken as a reward for the barking behavior instead of what you're intending. So ideally you note her pre-barking behavior and that's when you redirect.

You will probably also note certain dogs that she's more reactive to, or certain situations (when she feels a bit trapped, perhaps, or when a dog is within a certain distance). These are also times to redirect prior to barking.

Personally I think the proper (maybe not typical, but proper) GSD personality is confident, calm, accepting without necessarily being overly friendly. My shepherds lean toward the friendlier end of the spectrum, I will admit. Unfortunately it seems there are a lot of shy, timid, reactive GSDs out there and many people are starting to think that the reactiveness is "typical" even though it's not proper. I know that the vet I go to made a comment when I first brought Tazer in - she said they're seeing mostly shy, aggressive shepherds in the clinic these days and she was glad to see I had a shepherd because she knew I wouldn't let it be that way. 

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## EJQ (May 13, 2003)

> Quote: One instructor says use treats constantly and lavishly. Give them a treat for EVERY thing they do that is good and right.
> 
> Another instructor says use treats sparingly. We should be using praise more than treats.


I guess I'm a bit slow on the take up but are you saying that your class actually has two instructors and they have different opinions??!

That's unusual to say the least - stick with the positive reinforcement guy!!


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Quote: Marley wants nothing to do with any of the other people or dogs. She will bark at the dogs that try to get too close and if people try to pet her she will switch from my left side to my right and then sit there instead.
> 
> One instructor said that this was typical of a GSD. "They don't ask nor want people or dogs in their space."
> 
> The other instructor said that I need to get Marley to where she loves attention from everyone and wants to play with all the other dogs.


" *She will bark at the dogs that try to get too close and if people try to pet her she will switch from my left side to my right and then sit there instead." *

This is a reaction based on fear, and it needs to be addressed so you end up with a confident and secure dog. Do NOT be confused with aloof and fearful. Aloof is a confident and secure dog that just kind of IGNORES anyone not worth their interest. 

Barking and moving is from FEAR and either barking to make the scary thing stay away at a more comfortable distance. Or moving away to be at a more comfortable distance. But either reaction is based on the fact your dog is AFRAID and needs the distance to at least cope.

So I'm all about agreeing with the trainer who's saying become the Pez dispensor of treats when around the things that start making your dog uncomfortable. But BEFORE they react (cause then you would reward the barking, or reward the moving). So BEFORE that happens, use distance to YOUR advantage. Use the treats to keep your pups attention and focus, with calm praise while your pup is good. But food, real treats not dog treats, are a huge help.

Can't say enough, barking and moving away is NOT aloof behavior.

Some good info with help is on these sites:

http://www.doglistener.co.uk/fearful_dogs/fearful_dogs.shtml

http://kimmurphy.net/shy-k9s-faq.html


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## elly1210 (Jan 4, 2009)

Sonny does the same thing we are working with him with the fearful behavior. When people come to the door he is to wait, sit and we give him treats. We ask people not to pet him until he feels comfortable coming up to them. It has worked wonders. I also do the knocking sound here and there so I get a confident reaction from him not a fearful bark and when I knock I say who is here lets see and we do sit, wait, and shhh (no bark command) and then I open the door and pretend someone is there if he completes it he gets a treat


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