# Prong collar for 5 month puppy?



## Melisarayy

Hi everyone! 

I have a five month puppy named Sophie. She's a very smart, loving little girl. She just finished beginning puppy classes and is very good at her commands. BUT, is very distracted by people and dogs. I mean this in a negative way. I still get she's a puppy and very playful but she's also very timid of almost everything. ( I adopted her so now sure what kinda of experiences she had.) Every Time I walk her and she sees a dog or a person. She guards and growls and barks like crazy. She pulls the lead and is focused on them. Even at the vet, she gets in a barking battle with dogs. At home, barking is another problem too. She barks at everything even if not needed. I feel the dog trainer I have now, is way to sweet with my dog. Sophie just doesn't get it. She knows leave it, and I walk away from dogs when she gets into that mood. But seriously doesn't work. Which leads me to the prong collar... I was so against it at one point but now after reading about it. I feel like it might be best for Sophie. Any opinions on this? Please no negative comments. I literally can't have her do this when she's older or get used to the idea that it's okay. I want peaceful walks! And usually it happens when there's no dogs around.


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## NancyJ

I am a big fan of prong collars but I am afraid for this application it will backfire on you. If she is timid of everything her response to other dogs is one of fear and she really needs some desensitization first (JMO). She will learn other dogs, people = strong correction because once she goes into barking mode you will have to crank down on her to get attention and she will make a negative association. I do think corrections have a place with the fearful dog, but it is for violating an obedience command, and administered before the barking/lunging starts.


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## Stonevintage

Too young.


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## MustLoveGSDs

Not too young for a prong collar but yoo young for corrections without guidance. More importantly I would focus on finding a qualified trainer who has a great track record with behavior modification than worrying about the next tool to try. Professional guidance will be your best friend with this problem and let them choose a correct tool for her and teach you.


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## Stonevintage

MustLoveGSDs said:


> Not too young for a prong collar but yoo young for corrections without guidance.


So, you believe that a prong collar is good to use on 20 week old puppies?


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## MustLoveGSDs

Stonevintage said:


> So, you believe that a prong collar is good to use on 20 week old puppies?




If you are interested in my beliefs you can send me a PM. This post is asking for help from an owner that seriously needs it, this isnt about me.


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## kauffmds

Hi everyone,

I adopted a rescue shepherd in 2000. She was 6 months old. The SPCA in Cincinnati, Ohio (where we lived), included 18 weeks of obedience training when a dog was adopted. Cassie was dog aggressive, but a smart girl. The trainer noticed that she pulled the leash enough to get me off balance, so we fitted her with a prong collar. In the beginning, I wasn't sure about using something that looks so awful, but now that I understand how it works and how to properly fit one, I won't use anything else.

I believe that a dog is ready for a prong collar when it's large enough to pull severely and the dog ignores a regular collar. I will absolutely will NOT use a choker collar, and I don't care for the nose harness. Shy guys have confidence problems and that has to be addressed differently.

It's extremely important to properly adjust the links on a prong collar correctly, so if you've never used one, have it adjusted by a knowledgeable trainer.


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## Stonevintage

OP,

There is something called "the LAT game" (Look at That) that might be helpful to you. I cannot make the link work but it is posted on this site. It is a way to keep the stress/excitement level down so the puppy doesn't get to that uncontrolled level.


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## BauerWhite

I have a similar question so I'll piggyback on this thread.

I have a 5 month old male GSD. Sometimes on walks, he's pretty well behaved... but a lot of the time, he pulls pretty hard. There are times where he's basically pulling almost the entire time on our walk. When we see other people (especially kids) and other dogs... he just always wants to visit because he's a friendly dog. But he gets super excited and it's not always possible for him to interact with every dog and person we walk by. But most of the time, he's just pulling for no reason... like he's leading a dog sled team or something. He'll just pull in the normal direction that we're walking anyways.

When I walk with my wife, it's much better because she just keeps walking at a normal pace and the dog doesn't let her get too far ahead or behind. So if he stops to sniff something, my wife just keeps walking and then he'll run to catch up after she's about 10 feet ahead of us. I feel like he'd be great off leash because he would stay close to the pack, but we live in a city and that's not really possible where we live.

We're currently using a choker collar, but we don't put it on tight enough to really choke him much. We didn't really see any improvement in the pulling when we moved to a choker... but again, we don't put it on very tight. I've been considering getting a prong collar because he's getting really strong and he can pull really hard sometimes. I can handle him, but my wife just got pregnant and she wont be able to handle him if he keeps getting stronger. Normally though, I'm the one who walks him and she comes with us half the time (but I hold the leash). She sometimes walks him by herself, but I worry that this will be impossible if he gets a bit stronger and when she gets more pregnant.

Should I try a prong? I feel like he's a smart dog and I know he's still young, but I think he should be better behaved on our walks. Should I ditch the choke collar? Should I move to a harness? I do worry that he's hurting his neck by pulling so much. Even when the collar tightens, it doesn't stop him from pulling really whatsoever.


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## NancyJ

That is a different problem altogether. I would put in a new post so as not to derail this one.


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## Moriah

MustLoveGSDs said:


> Not too young for a prong collar but yoo young for corrections without guidance. More importantly I would focus on finding a qualified trainer who has a great track record with behavior modification than worrying about the next tool to try. Professional guidance will be your best friend with this problem and let them choose a correct tool for her and teach you.


I agree.


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## Stonevintage

My concern with using a prong collar on a 5 month old puppy is that it may be used improperly. It is my understanding that it is to be used as a reinforcement to a known command. 

If it was recommended that is was something to consider but "NEVER without instruction and training by a well qualified trainer" along with warnings, I could understand. 

As it is, with no explanation on what could be negative results of using one in the wrong situation, with wrong timing or an improper fit can be damaging.

It is a temptation for a new puppy owner to reach for one of these in Petco or wherever and forego the trainer suggestion, but - it is IMO not good to omit mentioning the damage these can do if not used exactly as instructed with such a young puppy. The knee jerk reaction is to go out and get one and heck - it works with walking so why not just use it for all other training too? 

Jocoyn made mention that use for this situation could cause a possible backfire. I just read an article by another trainer that goes into details on this, sending the wrong message to the puppy in this exact situation. 

How ingrained can training such as focus, redirect, LAT or any of the other methods be at 5 mos? Not recommending the prong at 4 or 5 months of age, IMO would redirect the training efforts to safer methods. Some blog sites are recommending hard corrections at all times with a prong. Crazy dangerous. But that's just - my opinion. I could be wrong


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## Mrs.P

Stonevintage said:


> My concern with using a prong collar on a 5 month old puppy is that it may be used improperly. It is my understanding that it is to be used as a reinforcement to a known command.
> 
> *If it was recommended that is was something to consider but "NEVER without instruction and training by a well qualified trainer" along with warnings, I could understand.*
> 
> As it is, with no explanation on what could be negative results of using one in the wrong situation, with wrong timing or an improper fit can be damaging.
> 
> It is a temptation for a new puppy owner to reach for one of these in Petco or wherever and forego the trainer suggestion, but - it is IMO not good to omit mentioning the damage these can do if not used exactly as instructed with such a young puppy. The knee jerk reaction is to go out and get one and heck - it works with walking so why not just use it for all other training too?
> 
> Jocoyn made mention that use for this situation could cause a possible backfire. I just read an article by another trainer that goes into details on this, sending the wrong message to the puppy in this exact situation.
> 
> How ingrained can training such as focus, redirect, LAT or any of the other methods be at 5 mos? Not recommending the prong at 4 or 5 months of age, IMO would redirect the training efforts to safer methods. Some blog sites are recommending hard corrections at all times with a prong. Crazy dangerous. But that's just - my opinion. I could be wrong





MustLoveGSDs said:


> Not too young for a prong collar but yoo young for corrections without guidance. *More importantly I would focus on finding a qualified trainer who has a great track record with behavior modification than worrying about the next tool to try. Professional guidance will be your best friend with this problem and let them choose a correct tool for her and teach you.*


 Your concern was addressed you decided to ignore it.


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## Stonevintage

Mrs.P said:


> Your concern was addressed you decided to ignore it.


No Mrs. P - I didn't decide to ignore it. I felt it didn't go into enough detail. I thought that was clear in my post, but you decided to ignore it.


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## MustLoveGSDs

Stonevintage said:


> No Mrs. P - I didn't decide to ignore it. I felt it didn't go into enough detail. I thought that was clear in my post, but you decided to ignore it.


She needs a qualified professional. That will be someone who will address the concerns you stated. I didn't need to elaborate because that is my recommendation. Even trying R+ with LAT games can backfire if she has no idea what she is doing. Timing is essential for that stuff. 

The tool is not the problem.


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## Stonevintage

Fine. I give up.


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## MustLoveGSDs

Stonevintage said:


> Fine. I give up.


Stone, it's not a contest, just don't assume I don't know what I am doing personally in regards to training tools. I would have happily responded to a PM if you would have sent one if genuinely curious, but your public response felt more like an accusation.


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## Stonevintage

MustLoveGSDs said:


> Stone, it's not a contest, just don't assume I don't know what I am doing personally in regards to training tools. I would have happily responded to a PM if you would have sent one if genuinely curious, but your public response felt more like an accusation.


I know it's not a contest, I am not doubting your abilities. I know the dangers of not using one of these properly. My concern is - what the newbie reads into a post that states "Not too young for a prong collar but too young for corrections without guidence" That's why I questioned it. I posted "Too young" You came right on top of my post and said "Not too young" I suppose you could have followed that with "See qualified trainer for explaination".

My whole point is, trying to be aware that some who read the training suggestions here do not take the recommendation to go to a qualified trainer. That leaves a bit of information in their hands - just enough in some cases to be dangerous. That is why I would rather have you explain it here - instead of to me only in the form of a PM. 

I was also trying to help the poster. But, it sounds as if no suggestions can be made because they could all have their problems. 

I still don't know. Is the OP's question or explaination of the problem so serious that he must go directly to a trainer? That no training suggestions should be made because the problem is that bad?


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## Chip18

First video clip in here is how "I" would go. The dog is bigger the principle is the same. 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html

I use a Slip Lead Leash myself details on that and other tools can be found here can be found here:
Slip Lead leash - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums

If you want to understand how to use a "Prong Collar" these guys have it covered:
Free Advice – Solid K9 Training
Los Angeles Dog Training Photos - The Good Dog
Ty the Dog Guy: World Class Dog Training in Salt Lake City

Puppy stuff:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIKT8ZQOD5Q&ab_channel=DogerciseDogTraining


Welcome aboard.


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## Findlay

MustLoveGSDs said:


> *Not too young for a prong collar but yoo young for corrections without guidance. More importantly I would focus on finding a qualified trainer* who has a great track record with behavior modification than worrying about the next tool to try. *Professional guidance will be your best friend with this problem and let them choose a correct tool for her and teach you.*


I agree with MustLoveGSDs.
My pup started basic obedience at 5 months and the 1st thing the trainer did was fit him for the H Sprenger prong collar and showed me how to use it for walking and training.
I swear, at 5 months my pup could pull a sled across Alaska, walking him was very unpleasant and not fun at all.
There were 5 GSD pups in the class and they all wore Prong Collars for training and for walking.

Also. basic obedience class is a good way to get your dog comfortable with other dogs a supervised setting.


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## Findlay

oops. Sorry I edited because I think it's important to mention that my pup's trainer and his staff own GSDs. 
This particular trainer is the go-to guy for owners of GSDs.

I think if the trainer didn't have a good history of owning and training GSDs, I would have thought twice about putting a prong collar on a 5 month old puppy.


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## MustLoveGSDs

Stonevintage said:


> I know it's not a contest, I am not doubting your abilities. I know the dangers of not using one of these properly. My concern is - what the newbie reads into a post that states "Not too young for a prong collar but too young for corrections without guidence" That's why I questioned it. I posted "Too young" You came right on top of my post and said "Not too young" I suppose you could have followed that with "See qualified trainer for explaination".
> 
> My whole point is, trying to be aware that some who read the training suggestions here do not take the recommendation to go to a qualified trainer. That leaves a bit of information in their hands - just enough in some cases to be dangerous. That is why I would rather have you explain it here - instead of to me only in the form of a PM.
> 
> I was also trying to help the poster. But, it sounds as if no suggestions can be made because they could all have their problems.
> 
> I still don't know. Is the OP's question or explaination of the problem so serious that he must go directly to a trainer? That no training suggestions should be made because the problem is that bad?


The problems she is having with this puppy are not uncommon and are pretty easy to fix. I've done GSD rescue for 7 years and have managed or fixed these issues in many young and adult dogs. The fact that she is here asking for help tells me she needs a professional. I can give out my advice step by step all day long but for me personally, and knowing that the owner cannot control this puppy, I don't want to try and explain something over the internet that could backfire since I am not there in person to help, especially in regads to a traininh tool that can have negative effects if misused. I am the same way with veterinary medical advice when people ask, as I am a vet tech and have to(or should) be careful with the info i put out there to pet owners. 

If you or anyone else feels comfortable to help this person with behavior mod over the internet then that is certainly your right. There are plenty of training things I will help with online but not these kinds of issues when I can't be there in person. I am plenty aware of not putting much faith into some people to follow direction which is why I just said all that I did


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## Stonevintage

Thank you. That answered my questions.


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## Chip18

MustLoveGSDs said:


> The problems she is having with this puppy are not uncommon and are pretty easy to fix. I've done GSD rescue for 7 years and have managed or fixed these issues in many young and adult dogs. The fact that she is here asking for help tells me she needs a professional. I can give out my advice step by step all day long but for me personally, and knowing that the owner cannot control this puppy, I don't want to try and explain something over the internet that could backfire since I am not there in person to help, especially in regads to a traininh tool that can have negative effects if misused. I am the same way with veterinary medical advice when people ask, as I am a vet tech and have to(or should) be careful with the info i put out there to pet owners.
> 
> If you or anyone else feels comfortable to help this person with behavior mod over the internet then that is certainly your right. There are plenty of training things I will help with online but not these kinds of issues when I can't be there in person. I am plenty aware of not putting much faith into some people to follow direction which is why I just said all that I did


That is a legitimate position. Not everyone can "fix" there Dog/Puppy over the internet!

But ... I did and I'm not that special! I am the self proclaimed "King of Links!" Most likely only "tens" of people can get through all of them?? It's a small audience but that's who I aim for.

If it's to much "work" for some then yes indeed hire a "Pro" but even then they'll have a better understanding of how someone that can help them will work.


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## MustLoveGSDs

Chip18 said:


> That is a legitimate position. Not everyone can "fix" there Dog/Puppy over the internet!
> 
> But ... I did and I'm not that special! I am the self proclaimed "King of Links!" Most likely only "tens" of people can get through all of them?? It's a small audience but that's who I aim for.
> 
> If it's to much "work" for some then yes indeed hire a "Pro" but even then they'll have a better understanding of how someone that can help them will work.




I'm all for great links to articles and videos!  I've learned a lot via that route.


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## Stonevintage

Chip18 said:


> That is a legitimate position. Not everyone can "fix" there Dog/Puppy over the internet!
> 
> But ... I did and I'm not that special! I am the self proclaimed "King of Links!" Most likely only "tens" of people can get through all of them?? It's a small audience but that's who I aim for.
> 
> If it's to much "work" for some then yes indeed hire a "Pro" but even then they'll have a better understanding of how someone that can help them will work.


Chip, your links helped me out a lot too. I think it was you who referred me to "who pets my dog" and also the reason I found the Leerburg site. Thanks!


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## LuvShepherds

Can we please not argue the pros and cons of prongs every time someone asks about one? They are an excellent training tool if used properly at 5 months. They key is using it the right way. It's not to hurt the dog, ever. It's similar to a clicker when used the way it is supposed to. It must be fitted and sized correctly. Most GSDs need a medium size collar. It needs to be snug. The point is to give a quick squeeze and make a metallic sound that acts as a reinforcer. It doesn't hurt the dog, the metal pieces slide sideways and never cut into the dog's skin. Try it out on your bare thigh first if you don't believe me. It just squeezes. Then try a choke collar on your leg, it will hurt when pulled correctly. Then you will know for sure. For some reason Martingales, which work the same way, don't work on a lot of big dogs. There may be too much give in the materials.

Another option is a Gentle Leader or Halti. The dog can't look up at you when heeling but for general ease as a tool for walking, it also works. Those can be used on young dogs.


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## Chasegsdlove

The prong collars are great I have one on my almost 6 and half month old Shepherd Chase. He has a problem with barking too. I first got it for leash training now I'm using it to stop the barking it is working


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## Chip18

Stonevintage said:


> Chip, your links helped me out a lot too. I think it was you who referred me to "who pets my dog" and also the reason I found the Leerburg site. Thanks!


Hmm well thank you for that. I hope this means you've forgiven me for my "seriously" "mis-aimed" reply way back when?? 

I've whined to "others" in pm's about doing that! It serves as a great bad example of how not to behave!

It's as much about "people" as it the "dogs" everyone trying to help others needs to bear that in mind ...just saying. 

Back to the topic at hand ...yes a "Prong Collar" can be a "horrible" tool in the hands of an unskilled user! 

Hence the advise "find a trainer!" Nothing wrong with that! Pretty sure if I would have come here first and said "My dog is aggressive with strangers???"

No one would have suggested "Who Pets my Puppy" and "Place" as rehab tools??

I did not any better so I went with it and it worked out fine! I do those with every dog I work with, as I don't know there back story and don't really care. Under my watch, with dogs I work with, "I keep people out of there face!" Works out fine. 

No less than Sean O'Shea apparently has had "problems with clients and there use of "Prong Collar" corrections. Hence he uses a DDC on a short "traffic leash" for corrections so in effect two leashes?? These days that seems to be what he instructs his clients to do?? He explains it in here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zR_tfAVvFdA

The "few" that do use a SLL (my tool) of choice will realize that "hey I can do the same thing with a SLL!" 

I never had to myself, I just don't have "problems" with a dog when "I" use a SLL. For everybody else ... Jeff Gellman say you can't "correct" a dog with a SLL! Well ...he would know. 

But back to the "prong" yep it can be abused but "every" tool can be abused! I like to "think" I take away at least one variable from people looking for answers "online" ... where to go???

Those that can, are able to see what the "pro's" do and for "some" of them that's all they need!

Kids involved or a "potential" up leash dog" yes a skilled pro is highly advised but they still need to know where to find one??

I know Jeff Gellman and Sean O'Shea can help people find a trainer local to them and most likely the other two can as well?? Without being hands on as it were, that's all we can do.

A long time ago Seltzer said in a post, she stepped away from the keyboard for 24 hours before responding. I remember that!

My time came when I saw a post from someone that wanted to know, if it was OK to keep an Elisabeth collar on here dog 24x7 because it solved her dogs "chewing problems???"

Now that was someone that was truly "clueless!" Stepping away I was able to resist the urge to start a post with "how freaking clueless ..." it would have gone down hill from there! Don't remember the thread but I did better than that!  

So nope we don't know the individual skill sets of poster's unless they state them. And sometimes people come on for conformation that what they are doing "wrong" is just fine thank you very much!

But sometimes people that are truly lost just need to be pointed in the right direction! By and large that's all "we" can do.


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## Jax08

sent you a PM


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## NancyJ

Guys a dog yanking your shoulders out of their sockets is NOT the same as a dog that is reactive and the pup needs to be assessed to see if it is just a little punk or it is reacting out of fear. I would put odds on fear reactivity at that age.........


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## Jax08

jocoyn said:


> Guys a dog yanking your shoulders out of their sockets is NOT the same as a dog that is reactive and the pup needs to be assessed to see if it is just a little punk or it is reacting out of fear. I would put odds on fear reactivity at that age.........


Exactly


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## Stonevintage

Chip - there was never any problem with that post way back. The conversation went on and all was good. Sorry if I left that impression.

I think I understand what you are communicating. It's just that when someone posts here and they are talking about doing something that can physically harm a puppy - I lose it. Even the potential scares me for the pup. 

Just in the last 2 months, we have seen people who decide to let their puppies ride in the back of pickups at 65 when they've jumped before, now they are concerned because they don't want to "ride" anymore, puppies that have been "drugged" to try to create improved training thru "mind expansion, people who let puppies bite into electrical cords so they learn their lesson, people who feed "fermented" rotten food, people who slap and punch their puppy in play and for discipline, those in abusive homes - and the list goes on.

I think I am over sensitive at this point. But I'm just concerned about some of the posters that come here asking for help. Some of the answers may be above their level of understanding and they really need stuff spelled out...... I don't know..... Some, I hate to see just get referred to a pro because a great number of them just aren't going to do that. This is where I feel your links come in and in a big way. Otherwise, they will take the bits and pieces they get here and call it good....


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## Melisarayy

To everyone: thanks for the responses. I failed to say that I DO have a professional helping me with the prong collar. Sophie has a trainer and going to a special obedience class specifically for German shepherds. They use prong collars. My question was is it a good idea to use as her age? (5 months) I have decided that the prong collar is the way too go for my dog.


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## Stonevintage

Melisarayy said:


> To everyone: thanks for the responses. I failed to say that I DO have a professional helping me with the prong collar. Sophie has a trainer and going to a special obedience class specifically for German shepherds. They use prong collars. My question was is it a good idea to use as her age? (5 months) I have decided that the prong collar is the way too go for my dog.


Well, that's really amusing. Thanks...... why in the heck - nevermind. Come back anytime you want to second guess your trainer and play games.....


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## Chip18

Stonevintage said:


> Well, that's really amusing. Thanks...... why in the heck - nevermind. Come back anytime you want to second guess your trainer and play games.....


Aww come on now ..yeah "we" got sand bagged! 

But I think I said, if they look at the links I posted, they have an idea of what they should see!

And finding a competent qualified trainer can be a struggle! Lot's of folks have poured money down a rat hole figuring that one out. It's all good.


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## Stonevintage

Chip18 said:


> Aww come on now ..yeah "we" got sand bagged!
> 
> But I think I said, if they look at the links I posted, they have an idea of what they should see!
> 
> And finding a competent qualified trainer can be a struggle! Lot's of folks have poured money down a rat hole figuring that one out. It's all good.


That's where you and I differ Chip. I sent her a "special" PM. There were other posts that needed information that not get the attention they deserved because of this one post. Maybe you're right - your information was useful.

I want that hour of my life back.....


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## Chip18

Stonevintage said:


> Chip - there was never any problem with that post way back. The conversation went on and all was good. Sorry if I left that impression.


 Good to know! 



Stonevintage said:


> I think I understand what you are communicating. It's just that when someone posts here and they are talking about doing something that can physically harm a puppy - I lose it. Even the potential scares me for the pup.
> 
> Just in the last 2 months, we have seen people who decide to let their puppies ride in the back of pickups at 65 when they've jumped before, now they are concerned because they don't want to "ride" anymore, puppies that have been "drugged" to try to create improved training thru "mind expansion, people who let puppies bite into electrical cords so they learn their lesson, people who feed "fermented" rotten food, people who slap and punch their puppy in play and for discipline, those in abusive homes - and the list goes on.
> 
> I think I am over sensitive at this point. But I'm just concerned about some of the posters that come here asking for help. Some of the answers may be above their level of understanding and they really need stuff spelled out...... I don't know..... Some, I hate to see just get referred to a pro because a great number of them just aren't going to do that. This is where I feel your links come in and in a big way. Otherwise, they will take the bits and pieces they get here and call it good....


Well somehow I missed a lot of that craziness?? 

Your concerns are valid and as much as I don't have faith in JQP's ability to control there dogs. I also see the other side "because" I'm a "Boxer" guy! I mean be "chatty" over here but it's tame for the most part compared to alot of my post on BoxerForum. And over there I've seen new members coming on that have been lurkers and they have already started Crate training and training "Place" with puppies! 

In one of those long wordy post I was once asked by a "Pro" over there, why I bother? My answer was "If I can help one person struggling with there dog, then it's worth the trouble!" I've found way more than one these days. 

So more than likely you have seen more of the failures and I have seen more of the ones that get it.

There is no right or wrong it's all about balance and we all see things differently but usually people seeking answers, are looking for something more that "find a trainer" ... not that there is anything wrong with that!


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## Melisarayy

She left me a crazy message! Wow, simple minded people these days. I appreciate everyone's help and want the opinions on others for prong collars. Thanks to the help of everyone, I came to decision that I want to use a prong collar. Hint, I even have a professonial that is going to help use this properly. As some people use it wrong.


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## Chip18

Melisarayy said:


> Hint, I even have a professonial that is going to help use this properly. As some people use it wrong.


Well there you go as long as you understand that ...your good!


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## Chip18

Stonevintage said:


> That's where you and I differ Chip. I sent her a "special" PM. There were other posts that needed information that not get the attention they deserved because of this one post. Maybe you're right - your information was useful.
> 
> I want that hour of my life back.....


Aww you don't get time back for making an effort. Op is going forward with a better understanding I believe??

Really I have seen only two fails one was here and one on Boxerforum. 

To much dog ..it happens. But ... the next effort by the "collective" will go better.


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## kauffmds

BauerWhite said:


> I have a similar question so I'll piggyback on this thread.
> 
> I have a 5 month old male GSD. Sometimes on walks, he's pretty well behaved... but a lot of the time, he pulls pretty hard. There are times where he's basically pulling almost the entire time on our walk. When we see other people (especially kids) and other dogs... he just always wants to visit because he's a friendly dog. But he gets super excited and it's not always possible for him to interact with every dog and person we walk by. But most of the time, he's just pulling for no reason... like he's leading a dog sled team or something. He'll just pull in the normal direction that we're walking anyways.
> 
> When I walk with my wife, it's much better because she just keeps walking at a normal pace and the dog doesn't let her get too far ahead or behind. So if he stops to sniff something, my wife just keeps walking and then he'll run to catch up after she's about 10 feet ahead of us. I feel like he'd be great off leash because he would stay close to the pack, but we live in a city and that's not really possible where we live.
> 
> We're currently using a choker collar, but we don't put it on tight enough to really choke him much. We didn't really see any improvement in the pulling when we moved to a choker... but again, we don't put it on very tight. I've been considering getting a prong collar because he's getting really strong and he can pull really hard sometimes. I can handle him, but my wife just got pregnant and she wont be able to handle him if he keeps getting stronger. Normally though, I'm the one who walks him and she comes with us half the time (but I hold the leash). She sometimes walks him by herself, but I worry that this will be impossible if he gets a bit stronger and when she gets more pregnant.
> 
> Should I try a prong? I feel like he's a smart dog and I know he's still young, but I think he should be better behaved on our walks. Should I ditch the choke collar? Should I move to a harness? I do worry that he's hurting his neck by pulling so much. Even when the collar tightens, it doesn't stop him from pulling really whatsoever.


Hi,

IMO, if you've progressed to a choke collar, than your dog is ready for a pronged collar. I'm not a fan of choke collars at all, having seen permanent injuries from them to necks and throats. Until a trainer fitted my Cassie with a prong collar, I would have told you that they were cruel devices and I would never use one.

When I took our 6 month old girl through obedience training, the trainer noticed how she was pulling me. She fitted Cassie with a prong collar, which took care of the situation and focused her attention on me. I'm disabled, so it doesn't take much of a pull to throw me off balance. My Maggie was about 5-6 months old when we fitted her with her prong collar. Now I won't use any other collar on my GSD's, but I've been taught how to adjust and use them properly.

The key here is to have a knowledgeable trainer fit the collar and teach you how to use it. Please don't assume that you can do this yourself, you have to be taught how to use it; you don't use it like a choke collar. The links have to be fitted properly, by someone who knows what they're doing, to prevent injury. Also, there are prong covers which further blunt the ends for use on a younger, or more sensitive dog.

I'm not a fan of the nose halters either, since a dog's nose is extremely sensitive. I hope this answers your question.


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## kauffmds

LuvShepherds said:


> Try it out on your bare thigh first if you don't believe me. It just squeezes. Then try a choke collar on your leg, it will hurt when pulled correctly. Then you will know for sure. For some reason Martingales, which work the same way, don't work on a lot of big dogs. There may be too much give in the materials.
> 
> Another option is a Gentle Leader or Halti. The dog can't look up at you when heeling but for general ease as a tool for walking, it also works. Those can be used on young dogs.


You definitely hit the nail on the head here. I'm a firm believer in testing on myself first, then my GSD. 

The first thing I did after the trainer fit my Cass with her pronged collar, was take it home and try it on my thigh. It doesn't hurt and when properly fitted, won't do damage. I absolutely deplore choke collars. I'm not the biggest fan of Halti's, but I've used one. They're effective and a much better alternative to the choke collar. 

My Cassie was a rescue shepherd, who has a lot of issues to work through, and we worked through them all. However, she showed aggression towards my Mother, when she visited. She never snapped, or bit, but she would guard the hallway and not allow my Mother out of her bedroom. One day, I caught her "smiling" at my mother, from behind my chair when I couldn't see her (how smart is that? LOL). 

The next time my mother visited, I decided to get a training collar for Cass, to correct her should she show aggression. The first thing I did was to put the thing on my wrist. I put it on the LOWEST setting and pushed the controller. The shock to my wrist was beyond unpleasant. Back to the store it went, never having been used on my dogs.

My Maggie went nuts when the mail carrier came, or when I took her leash and collar down for walks. She was so loud and obnoxious with the collar and leash, that it sounded as through we were beating her to death. She was an extremely high prey drive dog that was an athlete. Even with her advanced training, she liked the fact that she could bark and act up with the mail carrier, which of course was reinforced by his "leaving" the premises, which in her mind meant that she'd done her duty. With the leash and collar, she simply loved those walks, which included new smells and scenarios, since she was my natural tracker.

I finally got a vibration only collar to divert her attention on these two points. I tried the collar first on my wrist, then my neck. It didn't hurt at all and was if anything, a diversion. It worked like a charm.


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## kauffmds

kauffmds said:


> I'm not a fan of the nose halters either, since a dog's nose is extremely sensitive. I hope this answers your question.


I wanted to edit this answer, but I guess there's a time limit. 

I wanted to qualify my answer about the nose halter, otherwise called a Halti. I'm not the biggest fan, but I've used one, and it's a valid and much better alternative to the choke collar. 

My concern is because of the sideways pulling of the dog's head. I like to take my dogs to the park and release them from heel, to allow them to explore an area, while on long leash. As they're sniffing around and come to the end of the lead, they're heads are jerked sideways if they suddenly pull, which happens if they catch a scent that they like. 

As with any equipment, proper training in fit and use is a must. But I'd use a Halti any day of the week and twice on Sunday, rather than a choke.


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## ksotto333

Stonevintage said:


> Well, that's really amusing. Thanks...... why in the heck - nevermind. Come back anytime you want to second guess your trainer and play games.....


There isn't anything wrong with asking for a second opinion. Happens all the time on this forum and in life. She might have had more questions for her trainer if everyone on here was adamant that her pup was too young. How many times has someone been told to dump their current trainer and look for a different one? I doubt she was playing games. Your response certainly doesn't encourage anyone to ask questions.


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## Jax08

Melisarayy said:


> She left me a crazy message! Wow, simple minded people these days. I appreciate everyone's help and want the opinions on others for prong collars. Thanks to the help of everyone, I came to decision that I want to use a prong collar. Hint, I even have a professonial that is going to help use this properly. As some people use it wrong.



There is nothing wrong with using a prong on a 5 mth old as long as your corrections are followed with reward. As I explained in my PM, not doing so will shut your dog down. I used one at 4 months, a light one with light pops, paired with food. It was motivational rather than a correction. No pain, just light taps. I used on on Jax at 4 months that was only used for corrections and it ruined her. So just be aware of that when you are training.

I tried to use a prong in the same circumstances as you describe and it only ramped her up. A choke collar, a nylon choke collar, is better suited to this situation paired with behavior modification.


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## BauerWhite

kauffmds said:


> Hi,
> 
> IMO, if you've progressed to a choke collar, than your dog is ready for a pronged collar. I'm not a fan of choke collars at all, having seen permanent injuries from them to necks and throats. Until a trainer fitted my Cassie with a prong collar, I would have told you that they were cruel devices and I would never use one.
> 
> When I took our 6 month old girl through obedience training, the trainer noticed how she was pulling me. She fitted Cassie with a prong collar, which took care of the situation and focused her attention on me. I'm disabled, so it doesn't take much of a pull to throw me off balance. My Maggie was about 5-6 months old when we fitted her with her prong collar. Now I won't use any other collar on my GSD's, but I've been taught how to adjust and use them properly.
> 
> The key here is to have a knowledgeable trainer fit the collar and teach you how to use it. Please don't assume that you can do this yourself, you have to be taught how to use it; you don't use it like a choke collar. The links have to be fitted properly, by someone who knows what they're doing, to prevent injury. Also, there are prong covers which further blunt the ends for use on a younger, or more sensitive dog.
> 
> I'm not a fan of the nose halters either, since a dog's nose is extremely sensitive. I hope this answers your question.


thanks for the reply. 

I think i'll stick with choke collar for now. But again, I'm not putting it on very tightly, but when he pulls, it will tighten enough so that he can't back out of it... but I don't think it's really choking him much. 

But in any case, I think I found a good solution to my problem. I think the problem was that he just wanted to walk faster. So I've started going at a slow jog pace. For my dog, it's just kind of a quick walking pace (he doesn't go into a full run). Anyways, he likes this a lot better and he sticks by my side throughout most of the jog/walk. I jog on the sidewalk and he's doing his quick walk / slow run on the grass next to the sidewalk for the most part. I know I'm not supposed to run a young dog... but I think this is the pace that he is happiest with. Our backyard is pretty small, so he doesn't really get a chance to run very often. So ya, this had made our walks much better. He doesn't really pull at all now because I just run at the pace that he wants to travel. This is much better for me too because it allows me to get some exercise during our walks.


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## LuvShepherds

kauffmds said:


> I wanted to edit this answer, but I guess there's a time limit.
> 
> 
> My concern is because of the sideways pulling of the dog's head. I like to take my dogs to the park and release them from heel, to allow them to explore an area, while on long leash. As they're sniffing around and come to the end of the lead, they're heads are jerked sideways if they suddenly pull, which happens if they catch a scent that they like.
> 
> As with any equipment, proper training in fit and use is a must. But I'd use a Halti any day of the week and twice on Sunday, rather than a choke.


You are using the Halti incorrectly. My friend is a professional service dog trainer. She uses a Halti only while training. The dog is never allowed to sniff or run off while on it. If they give the dog free sniff time, they switch out the collars to a flat buckle. The purpose of the head collar is to teach walking without pulling and to provide intentional corrections. It's not something anyone can buy and use. You would need to be trained on the proper way to use one. I have used one with mixed success, but when I used it only as recommended by her, it worked fine. During the training period when going on a fun walk, I use a different collar. I also used a prong in class because there were too many distractions and my dog was getting hurt by trying to look at the other dogs. Instead, I worked on focusing on my face organically.


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## Chip18

ksotto333 said:


> How many times has someone been told to dump their current trainer and look for a different one?


Well ...that would be "me" for one!

If people describe there situation accurately enough, you can sense whether there "trainer" is a help or a henderence.


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## Steve Strom

BauerWhite said:


> thanks for the reply.
> 
> I think i'll stick with choke collar for now. But again, I'm not putting it on very tightly, but when he pulls, it will tighten enough so that he can't back out of it... but I don't think it's really choking him much.
> 
> But in any case, I think I found a good solution to my problem. I think the problem was that he just wanted to walk faster. So I've started going at a slow jog pace. For my dog, it's just kind of a quick walking pace (he doesn't go into a full run). Anyways, he likes this a lot better and he sticks by my side throughout most of the jog/walk. I jog on the sidewalk and he's doing his quick walk / slow run on the grass next to the sidewalk for the most part. I know I'm not supposed to run a young dog... but I think this is the pace that he is happiest with. Our backyard is pretty small, so he doesn't really get a chance to run very often. So ya, this had made our walks much better. He doesn't really pull at all now because I just run at the pace that he wants to travel. This is much better for me too because it allows me to get some exercise during our walks.


Hey Bauer, just a couple points for you to consider. For walking, a tight collar is the opposite of what you want. You don't want choking at all. One thing that does is create opposition reflex and you end up with even harder pulling.

You may regret trying too hard to match your pace to what he wants also. You may find that his pace is going to get faster and faster and then at times when you need some control, you won't have it.

With a choke or prong its a quick pop and release that interrupts what he's doing incorrectly. It gives you the chance to show him whats correct with praise or reward and it punishes whats not, the pulling. When you tell him to heel, he has to walk on a loose leash. Anything else isn't behaving. I like to have a clear release and let him wander sniffing and peeing at the very end of whatever length line he's on, but heel means heel right next to me.


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## Stonevintage

Steve Strom said:


> Hey Bauer, just a couple points for you to consider. For walking, a tight collar is the opposite of what you want. You don't want choking at all. One thing that does is create opposition reflex and you end up with even harder pulling.
> 
> You may regret trying too hard to match your pace to what he wants also. You may find that his pace is going to get faster and faster and then at times when you need some control, you won't have it.
> 
> With a choke or prong its a quick pop and release that interrupts what he's doing incorrectly. It gives you the chance to show him whats correct with praise or reward and it punishes whats not, the pulling. When you tell him to heel, he has to walk on a loose leash. Anything else isn't behaving. I like to have a clear release and let him wander sniffing and peeing at the very end of whatever length line he's on, but heel means heel right next to me.



Steve, this is exactly the problem that I ran into. I had posted here a couple of days ago about the problem of issuing the pop correction because the collar kept slipping down. It was suggested that I remove a link which I did and took her out to do some walking in front of our house.

The collar stayed seated where it should be, however she was pulling harder. (opposition reflex). Because she was in front of me, the corrections were not effective.

It does seem to me that the dog needs to be in the heel position for any correction to be effective. A correction with a tight leash does not work. I purchased a 24 pack of string cheese today. We will see how the combination of treat, heal command and prong correction do....


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## Longfisher

Stonevintage said:


> Too young.


Agreed.

LF


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## Orson

All training methods in terms of collars have proven to be successful. You just need to find what works for you along with being well informed on how to use it as a training tool not a dominance tool. I personally am not a fan of choke / prong collars and I just joined a obedience class where they actually banned the use of them. People were not happy. 

I know it says all over the internet that prong collars protect your dogs trachea but trachea collapses happen over time and there is no study to see if prong collars progressively makes the trachea vulnerable. I have seen / heard of a few cases where collapsed tracheas happened and the owner had to switch from a prong collar to a gentle leader. The fact that your are squeezing (even lightly) the neck over and over and over as a training method in my opinion leaves the dog vulnerable to progressive trachea problems. Like I said before all training methods in terms of collars can be successful it's just about what feels right for you and your dog.


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## Steve Strom

Stonevintage said:


> Steve, this is exactly the problem that I ran into. I had posted here a couple of days ago about the problem of issuing the pop correction because the collar kept slipping down. It was suggested that I remove a link which I did and took her out to do some walking in front of our house.
> 
> The collar stayed seated where it should be, however she was pulling harder. (opposition reflex). Because she was in front of me, the corrections were not effective.
> 
> It does seem to me that the dog needs to be in the heel position for any correction to be effective. A correction with a tight leash does not work. I purchased a 24 pack of string cheese today. We will see how the combination of treat, heal command and prong correction do....


The problem there is that if they're in heel position, you don't want to correct them. Try giving one good pop straight back with your left hand and stop moving, two more pops straight back to show her to come backwards into position and don't move till she settles into that position, maybe looks at you or just relaxes enough that she's not going to lunge out forward as soon as you start moving. 

Throw in some sudden stops to make her pay attention to you and if she isn't use the three pops. Praise her when she's correct. Give her some cheese.


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## onyx'girl

Yep, I never correct in heel position, instead the slack in the line with my quick move away from the dog self corrects and the dog see's that being by my side is the safe zone. And praise/reward immediately when dog is back with me.


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## Stonevintage

Good advise, thank you. No, I would never correct in the heel position, I meant the second she goes out ahead. This would be with a distraction that she breaks the heel. I had her on cheese only with no corrections but her heat came in and we slacked off.


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## selzer

Sometimes, a meaningful correction, followed immediately by moving on and then praising the moving on, is more humane than allowing a pup/dog to become entrenched in a negative behavior. Don't let the dog pause in the behavior or pause in the correction, move on, move on and then praise like nothing happened at all, and keep going. 

The positive trainers will tell you to bring treats and drop treats for your dog when it reacts. Crazy. Some dogs won't even go for a treat when they are in a state like that. I suppose they want you to get to the point where the dog sees another dog and then looks to you, for a treat. It can work. But it can also back-fire. You can have the dog staying in a negative state far longer than he should. When the other owner drags his dog away from your nasty dog, his behavior works, he gets what he wants, and look at you, you are there with treats for him.

Other trainers will have you stay far away from what they react to, slowly getting closer, and using lots of treats, and time, while building the dog's confidence in other ways, so that as he becomes more confident in himself and in you, he will be less likely to react. This hinges on how well you are able to keep the dog at a distance below his threshold, and every time you fail to stay below the threshold, you run the risk of his negative behavior being reinforced, like in the above.

So, a meaningful correction, coupled with moving on, and then praising the dog, can train the dog that is behavior is going to get a negative response which you are in control of. At the same time, whatever he is afraid of did not eat him, and each subsequent encounter, where he is not attacked and where you move on and then praise can help him to be less concerned with other critters being around -- he doesn't need to bark and lunge to make it go away. At the same time, if you think it is fear-based, improving his confidence in you and in himself, through training and bonding, will work right alongside that correction to improve the problem.

Correction deals with the symptom.
Confidence building training deals with the problem. 

Sometimes you need drugs and therapy.


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## Melisarayy

Posting PM's on the open forums is not allowed. If a member is bothering you then follow Jax08's recommendation and block them. You can also send a notification to the ADMIN, but we can't do much about it unless the person is really stalking and harassing you. 

ADMIN Lisa


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## Jax08

Melisarayy:

If you click on a persons name, you will see an option to "view public profile" . ON that page, below their name, you will see a drop down "User Lists". There you will see an option to "Ignore" 

Choose that and crazy people can't send nasty PM's.


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## MustLoveGSDs

Melisarayy said:


> Quote has been removed since it violated board rules about not sharing PM's. ADMIN



Not surprised and I disagree that this post was a waste of our time. For every one person who interacts in this posy there are probably 5 more viewing it silently. Good advice in here and you never know who is reading and who will be helped because sone people took the time to respond.


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## ksotto333

Stonevintage said:


> That's where you and I differ Chip. I sent her a "special" PM. There were other posts that needed information that not get the attention they deserved because of this one post. Maybe you're right - your information was useful.
> 
> I want that hour of my life back.....


Op.. I thought you might get an odd pm when I read this. Please ignore the source and continue to ask your questions. Good luck and take care...


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## Jackal

IMO: corrections should be kept to a "Aggg" sound, then redirect/refocus your pup onto you. Corerctions in my book and solely for this purpose alone: Only when i am 100% sure the dog understands the exercise, and is being willfully disobedient, do i correct it. A five month old dog reactive puppy, is not the scenario for a correction. More shaping calm relaxed behaviour, or focus work. 

As prong collars are illegal here in Australia, you will only ever see them in Schutzhund. They are not available in shops either, you must purchase on line. And those i see in Schutzhund with them, its in the bite work ONLY, to switch dog from prey to fight drive. So the fact you are wanting to use this, to prevent avoidance behaviours in a weak nerved dog, is odd to me, and could be counter productive for you. 

A dog that is dog reactive, will become more stimulated on a prong and react more to the threat of other dog nearby, IMO.
Prongs increase fight drive, Not a problem in Schutzhund, but in a pet?

I would counter train your dog, and teach a new behaviour using reward based training. Shut the **** up, and i feed you something nice. 
But do so at a distance from the other dog(s), so the dog notices the other dog, but does not bark. That maybe on outskirts of oval where dogs are, if so, that's where you start, and each session, you move closer.

I had a very dog reactive rottie, and local dog club, allowed me to use its 20 or so dogs training session, as a massive counter training for my rottie. I was not interested in the clubs training session, just needed a heap of dogs for my dog to bark at, so i could capture the behaviour and counter train my own dog. 
By week four, she would sit at end of line, focused on me, not barking at others. 
At which point we left the club, who were training using methods that would bore the crap outta me n my working dogs, but each to their own i guess. 
Consider the function of your dogs behaviour of barking?
It is a flight/fight initiation behaviour. Every time you remove the threat (vision of other dog) by leaving with your dog, you reinforce barking. I bark, you rescue us by leaving. Dog gets to put increased distance between it, and perceived threat. 

Dogs dont socialise naturally, only with members of its family. Be that fur or human family. 
Many folks want their dog to play nicely with other dogs. This is about the owners needs, not the dog. I personally prefer indifference to other dogs.


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## Chai

Jackal said:


> As prong collars are illegal here in Australia, you will only ever see them in Schutzhund.


FYI Prong collars are not illegal in all Australian states. I see occasionally them used outside of Shutzhund, but they are not nearly as widely used as they are in the states.


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## RueAndBree

BauerWhite said:


> I have a similar question so I'll piggyback on this thread.
> 
> 
> Should I try a prong? I feel like he's a smart dog and I know he's still young, but I think he should be better behaved on our walks. Should I ditch the choke collar? Should I move to a harness? I do worry that he's hurting his neck by pulling so much. Even when the collar tightens, it doesn't stop him from pulling really whatsoever.


Do not use a harness, most encourage pulling. My dogs pulled much more with harnesses and I've had almost thirteen dogs. A prong would be great, but speak to a professional.


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## David Winners

RueAndBree said:


> Do not use a harness, most encourage pulling. My dogs pulled much more with harnesses and I've had almost thirteen dogs. A prong would be great, but speak to a professional.


Good advice, but the thread is 6 years old.


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## helenwiener

Melisarayy said:


> Hi everyone!
> 
> I have a five month puppy named Sophie. She's a very smart, loving little girl. She just finished beginning puppy classes and is very good at her commands. BUT, is very distracted by people and dogs. I mean this in a negative way. I still get she's a puppy and very playful but she's also very timid of almost everything. ( I adopted her so now sure what kinda of experiences she had.) Every Time I walk her and she sees a dog or a person. She guards and growls and barks like crazy. She pulls the lead and is focused on them. Even at the vet, she gets in a barking battle with dogs. At home, barking is another problem too. She barks at everything even if not needed. I feel the dog trainer I have now, is way to sweet with my dog. Sophie just doesn't get it. She knows leave it, and I walk away from dogs when she gets into that mood. But seriously doesn't work. Which leads me to the prong collar... I was so against it at one point but now after reading about it. I feel like it might be best for Sophie. Any opinions on this? Please no negative comments. I literally can't have her do this when she's older or get used to the idea that it's okay. I want peaceful walks! And usually it happens when there's no dogs around.





Melisarayy said:


> Hi everyone!
> 
> I have a five month puppy named Sophie. She's a very smart, loving little girl. She just finished beginning puppy classes and is very good at her commands. BUT, is very distracted by people and dogs. I mean this in a negative way. I still get she's a puppy and very playful but she's also very timid of almost everything. ( I adopted her so now sure what kinda of experiences she had.) Every Time I walk her and she sees a dog or a person. She guards and growls and barks like crazy. She pulls the lead and is focused on them. Even at the vet, she gets in a barking battle with dogs. At home, barking is another problem too. She barks at everything even if not needed. I feel the dog trainer I have now, is way to sweet with my dog. Sophie just doesn't get it. She knows leave it, and I walk away from dogs when she gets into that mood. But seriously doesn't work. Which leads me to the prong collar... I was so against it at one point but now after reading about it. I feel like it might be best for Sophie. Any opinions on this? Please no negative comments. I literally can't have her do this when she's older or get used to the idea that it's okay. I want peaceful walks! And usually it happens when there's no dogs around.





Melisarayy said:


> Hi everyone!
> 
> I have a five month puppy named Sophie. She's a very smart, loving little girl. She just finished beginning puppy classes and is very good at her commands. BUT, is very distracted by people and dogs. I mean this in a negative way. I still get she's a puppy and very playful but she's also very timid of almost everything. ( I adopted her so now sure what kinda of experiences she had.) Every Time I walk her and she sees a dog or a person. She guards and growls and barks like crazy. She pulls the lead and is focused on them. Even at the vet, she gets in a barking battle with dogs. At home, barking is another problem too. She barks at everything even if not needed. I feel the dog trainer I have now, is way to sweet with my dog. Sophie just doesn't get it. She knows leave it, and I walk away from dogs when she gets into that mood. But seriously doesn't work. Which leads me to the prong collar... I was so against it at one point but now after reading about it. I feel like it might be best for Sophie. Any opinions on this? Please no negative comments. I literally can't have her do this when she's older or get used to the idea that it's okay. I want peaceful walks! And usually it happens when there's no dogs around.


My 4 month old has a trainer who gave her a prong collar. It worked well with her pulling but punctured holes in her neck and they got infected. DO NOT USE!!!!! I hate my trainer for doing this. My baby was terrified of her when she first met her. My baby sensed something. She is not shy about approach others in a friendly way but hated her before anything happened, hated her on sight. No, no, no.


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## Pytheis

helenwiener said:


> My 4 month old has a trainer who gave her a prong collar. It worked well with her pulling but punctured holes in her neck and they got infected. DO NOT USE!!!!! I hate my trainer for doing this. My baby was terrified of her when she first met her. My baby sensed something. She is not shy about approach others in a friendly way but hated her before anything happened, hated her on sight. No, no, no.


Were you not there when the prong collar was being used? Did you leave the prong collar on 24/7? Did you not do anything when your girl screamed? She would have had to have made some serious noise if she was corrected hard enough to put holes in her neck. That is a misuse of the tool and on the handler, not the fault of the tool.


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## Biscuit

Pytheis said:


> That is a misuse of the tool and on the handler, not the fault of the tool.


This. Whoever put holes in your puppies neck would have managed to do damage to the pup whatever collar was around their neck.


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