# American Show Lines -- The People Involved



## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

I was asked in another thread about the changes in the people involved in breeding and showing American show lines. I think the biggest, and worst, change is the evolution of the professional handler. In the old days (70's and 80's) an owner could usually show their own dog and have success doing it, even in the specialty ring. Kids, such as myself at the time, were asked to show puppies and novice dogs. A professional handler was often hired as a breeder/exhibitor aged and was unable to make all of those big circles. Handlers would show and promote a stud dog, including showing the progeny of that dog.

Now days, with the 12 ft leashes and the huge rings, it is very difficult to be competitve showing your own dog. The handlers charge high prices, and only the well off can afford them. So now instead of a family setting, the exhibitor pool is getting older. Young handlers are not coming to the sport because they are not given a chance by either judges or exhibitors. And with the "instant gratification" need of many, they are not willing to start at the bottom and work their way up.

More tomorrow.


----------



## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

That's a pretty valid point. I notice most of the handlers at conformation shows (on TV anyway) are older.


----------



## Dr89 (Nov 18, 2010)

I feel like a lot of times I see the same handlers over and over, is it kind of like horse jockeys, where owners hire them...or do I sometimes just see the same show more than once? Haha


----------



## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> I feel like a lot of times I see the same handlers over and over, is it kind of like horse jockeys, where owners hire them


People hire them, and continue to go to the same people they are comfortable with and have had success with.

The pool is getting older. When Jon and I go to a show, unless there are juniors, we are the youngest ones in attendance, and we're in our mid 20's


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I think there is real validity to this point. I was reading Barbara A.s interview and she mentioned that what is mostly needed now is the ability to write a check. People are often not personally involved in the exhibition of their dog. 

I think this makes the activity a lot less appealing to many people who might otherwise participate.

Jimmy M., in his recent interview, noted that if the current trend continues the only one's who will be gathered at a German Shepherd show ring are he and few old friends.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Where are Jimmy's numbers to make a statement like that!!!??? I learned on this forum you can't make statements like that even if they are true without numbers to support the statement....LOL
Seriously, If these things are affecting the ring that much, let me pose a question. 
"What is the responsibility of the Judge....to put up the best dog or put up the best presentation????


----------



## BluePaws (Aug 19, 2010)

In theory, the handler should be 'invisible' right? Only there to bring the best out of the dog?


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Let's make this a threesome....should it be the best dog?, or the best presentation, or the best handler, ?????
What seems to be the trend these days and what's the thinking of the Judges????


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

One of the reasons I like UKC over AKC...they look at the dog


----------



## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

Yes it is suppose to be the best dog and barring the politics involved there is going to be influence (conscious or unconscious) when Jimmy or Clint or any other top handler comes in the ring. Somewhere in the judges mind is 'he wouldn't bring a bad dog into the ring'. I don't think the handler should have anything to do with it...it's a 'dog' show, but unfortunately I think it does. Even though there are standards it's still subjective and there are often politics involved. Sometimes the best dog wins and sometimes it doesn't.


----------



## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

In my experience judges try to judge the dogs, BUT outside influences can color their choices. After all, judges are people too and have their preferences. If Judge A prefers a dark dog, and Handler X can have his choice of dogs to show, desn't it make sense that Handler X will choose to show the best dark dog in his stable? Handlers tend to do better than owners in the all-breed ring because they show more, have better insite into the judges' preferences, and can pick and choose dogs for a particular show or weekend.


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I think the best dog should win. But, if there is not a large difference in quality, then the presentation is going to matter. Should it? I think that to a degree yes.. if the dog is not well trained and does not present well, it perhaps should lose that round. 

I have heard that some judges tend to put up certain handler's dogs. Some people do look at that when entering if they feel a certain handler will be favored. It does seem that "being known" as a pro handler may have its benefits at times. Now, that can not be proven.

It also appears sometimes that who owns the dog may be a factor. Back scratching is rumored to happen also. 

Are these things real or just the grumblings of dissastisfied exhibitors? Who knows?


----------



## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Samba said:


> I think the best dog should win. But, if there is not a large difference in quality, then the presentation is going to matter. Should it? I think that to a degree yes.. if the dog is not well trained and does not present well, it perhaps should lose that round.
> 
> I have heard that some judges tend to put up certain handler's dogs. Some people do look at that when entering if they feel a certain handler will be favored. It does seem that "being known" as a pro handler may have its benefits at times. Now, that can not be proven.
> 
> ...


I know someone that shows Pugs and she said that it is common.


----------



## Hunther's Dad (Mar 13, 2010)

Samba said:


> I think the best dog should win. But, if there is not a large difference in quality, then the presentation is going to matter. Should it? I think that to a degree yes.. if the dog is not well trained and does not present well, it perhaps should lose that round.
> 
> I have heard that some judges tend to put up certain handler's dogs. Some people do look at that when entering if they feel a certain handler will be favored. It does seem that "being known" as a pro handler may have its benefits at times. Now, that can not be proven.
> 
> ...


Here's the quandary: I have a very definite opinion on the subject. Do I voice it here, and risk having it get back to the people who are in a position to say, "Oh yeah? See if YOU ever win a big event!" 

At one regional event I attended, the judge went on and on about how he broke into the sport at the host club, all the good times he had there, etc. What a coincidence...nobody who wasn't a member of that club placed higher than fifth. And I'm not having sour grapes; by any objective measure, my dog's performance in one phase was awful. But in the one phase he always does well in, I could tell by the looks on the spectator's faces that they thought he was full of, er, "what I have to go clean up in the back yard."


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

So say if Judges preference, handler, or presentation are the reasons a dog is put up over a superior specimen. I would think that dogs that win in the ring would get more breedings and thus have more influence on the breed than dogs that don't win. Now it would seem to me that Judge's preference, handlers, and presentation won't pass genetically to the puppies. So over time will this practice have a negative impact on the breed? or does it not really mean much?
ps I think that in europe in which I know more about it seems that Judge's preference,(color), and breeder kennels, seem to impact winning.
I'm trying to figure out if this is beneficial or not to the breed?


----------



## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

I think an interesting fix would be to have all owners show their own dogs in the ring...eliminate the professional handlers. (because unemployment isn't high enough ) 

Seriously, I've always thought that part of what makes the GSD unique is it's loyalty and willingness to work for their "master". Might as well put master in the ring with the dog and see how they do.


----------



## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Until health issues made it impossible for me to show my GSD's, I often put points on my dogs and would even take dogs back in for my handler if she won more than one class.



















I really miss being able to show my own dogs -- that is why I got the Schipperke. It gave me a dog to show. But if we limited dog shows to just owner handlers, there would still be politics. That is the nature of people. It exists in some Schutzhund clubs as well -- dogs not bought from club members are not welcome.

And Cliff -- just because a dog does a lot of winning does not mean he will sire a bunch of puppies and have a large impact on the breed. Tag had 102 Best of Breed wins and 25 group placings, but only sired 2 litters, one of which was on my bitch.


----------



## unloader (Feb 16, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> One of the reasons I like UKC over AKC...they look at the dog


While I have no ring experience yet, this is why I would only want to show in the UKC ring.

United Kennel Club: About UKC
At the bottom of the page.

"*Events and Activities. *Our event emphasis is on the owner-handler and breeder, and their dogs. The environment is friendly, open, fun, educational and competitive. While maintaining a degree of difficulty to preserve the integrity of the degree, UKC events and titles are attainable accomplishments for the amateur trainer and handler. 

UKC events are, to a great degree, devoid of the pressure and disappointment experienced in similar events provided by competitive organizations. UKC encourages the owner/handler philosophy to aid in the growth and bond between owners and their dogs. This is proven over and over in the success and growth of our events across the country."


----------



## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Judges are people and people are subjective and wherever there are people there is(are?) politics. If you don't go into showing with that in mind your disappointments will be compounded.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I understand your point, by your example you gave, I guess I am curious again if you are staing the exception or the norm. I'm curious if we were to look at the ROM's in the country, how many would be from bigtime winners and how many would be from less significant dogs in terms of winning. 
I know in Germany the SV lists the dogs who are getting the most breedings, and it seems that the VA dogs do better than the other V dogs in the showring.


----------



## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

I guess it just goes to further show the seperation between the all-breed and specialty dogs within the American Show Lines. Most of the studs getting the breedings are specialty dogs, even to produce the all-breed dogs. Few of the big winners in the All-breed ring become big producers.


----------



## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Coming from the horse world, one thing I've always been curious about is the fairly lax attire in the competitive dog world. 

Competing in horse sports originating with the military and Royal presentations has given me a very keen appreciation for the **** and span appearence of competitive horses. 

I'm definitely not a conformation person, but the sneakers and warm-ups pants look of most dog sports irks me deep down. Although i don't think appearence should at all be a deciding factor with a judge.

HOWEVER...I think with anything, appearence does matter. 2 equal candidates for a job--likely the cleanly and professionally turned out individual will secure the job.

Anyhow...this post is a little OT since that's not really what the thread is about, but I noticed someone talking about presentation and that does play a small part in it.


----------



## horsegirl (Aug 11, 2010)

I have to have a handler show my dogs. My dog shows much better when I am outside of the ring, as he is looking for me. For fun I tried to handle him at a practice, all he wanted to do was trot around next to me and jump on me, he thought we were playing. Sometimes it just doesn't work to show your own dogs, hence having a handler. As far a Judges are concerned , they are individuals, they all have thier own likes and dislikes. In my opinion it is a crap shoot at any dog show, One day you win everything the next you get nothing.


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

If people are going to the big winners primarily because they won, then that could be a limiting and unbalanced approach to the gene pool. At least to my way of thinking. 

Daphne, I bet you are correct that most of the "top" sires are out of the specialty environs. Was Dallas an exception to this?


----------



## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Yes, Dallas was the exception. But Dallas was promoted by Jimmy.


----------



## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> Seriously, I've always thought that part of what makes the GSD unique is it's loyalty and willingness to work for their "master".


That is the reason most people INSIST that you get a handler and double your dog. Because the dog will move out better and look for you. They are not terribly attached to the person showing them so they don't look behind them.

I personally have not found this to be true, and am often complimented on how well my bitch shows for me. I cannot rely on a doubler even if I wanted to. Mirada shows well for me, but she's Jon's dog. She's very bonded to him. If he's at a show, he needs to ignore her for awhile before ring time, and if he wants to watch, he either hides, or doesn't acknowledge her. 

Mirada does not look for Jon when we're in the ring because at that time she is working for ME, and any doubling would only make her a bit hectic.

BTW, I always dress up nicely for a show, but I DO wear tennis shoes. I cannot run very well as it is, I'm not going to make it worse by wearing dress shoes. I'm not even sure how much longer I'll be able to exhibit my own.


----------



## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Xeph said:


> That is the reason most people INSIST that you get a handler and double your dog. Because the dog will move out better and look for you. They are not terribly attached to the person showing them so they don't look behind them.


I'm super confused by this. Not at all a show person, so can someone explain this more? How will having someone the dog is attached to outside the ring make the dog move out better?


----------



## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Because the dog wants to get to them. The person calls the dog, the ears go up, the head comes up, and the dog moves way out on the lead to get to that person.


----------



## horsegirl (Aug 11, 2010)

GSDElsa said:


> I'm super confused by this. Not at all a show person, so can someone explain this more? How will having someone the dog is attached to outside the ring make the dog move out better?


In my case , my dog hates being away from me , he knows I am somewhere outside the ring , if I am hiding or in plain site, he is alert (looking for me).


----------



## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

In showing German Shepherds, there is usually a handler who is in the ring with the dog, and a double handler who is outside the ring with various and assorted noise makers. At SV style shows the doublers often carry dog pans with food or tennis balls. At AKC Specialty shows, the doubler use whistles, horns, squeaky toys, etc. to keep the dog's head up and moving with animation while on a loose lead.


----------



## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> In my case , my dog hates being away from me , he knows I am somewhere outside the ring , if I am hiding or in plain site, he is alert (looking for me).


And I'm one of those weird people that uses food, lol


----------



## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Andaka said:


> In showing German Shepherds, there is usually a handler who is in the ring with the dog, and a double handler who is outside the ring with various and assorted noise makers. At SV style shows the doublers often carry dog pans with food or tennis balls. At AKC Specialty shows, the doubler use whistles, horns, squeaky toys, etc. to keep the dog's head up and moving with animation while on a loose lead.


Oooh. So they are basically in the ring in front of the dog when he's trotting towards them?

Somehow that seems like cheating!


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Yes, German Shepherds show best when they are alert and looking for their owner. It shows their expression well. A good German Shepherd can be so sound that they do not show well if not doubled to a degree.

I don't know how long the German's have exhibited the breed this way, but for a long time. Double handling is the way they are shown. There is a Belgian breed that is evaluated this way also with a doubling person in some fashion, I was told recently. This doubling is not cheating in Germany, the doublers have a designated ring to run in. Okay, at times the doubling gets a bit over the top. But the reason the dogs are shown this way is real.

Yes, Jimmy is a well known handler and could promote Dallas. Dallas is in a lot of specialty dog pedigrees these days, I have noted.

I sure some people breed to the top winning dogs, but I do know of some who look at other sires for their particular purposes in breeding. How much that type of breeding goes on versus the flocking to a popular, winning sire... I don't know.


----------



## HeidiW (Apr 9, 2009)

Are there any youtube videos of the ASL shows? Has anyone ever heard of Bill - Mars Here comes Trouble?


----------



## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

If someone could post youtube videos that would be awesome


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Specialty






All breed


----------



## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> Bill - Mars Here comes Trouble?


Bil-Mar's Here Comes Trouble. I saw Trouble in 2006 at the GSDCA National in St Louis

If you go to youtube and type in German Shepherd Specialty, you'll get several results


----------



## HeidiW (Apr 9, 2009)

He is my Bella's grandfather and I recall they made a big deal about that, I had no clue why. Thanks !


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Bill-Mars Here Comes Trouble

Bil-Mar’s Here Comes Trouble


----------



## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Because he's a 3 time Select Excellent Champion


----------



## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

What does that mean?


----------



## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

It means the dog went to the GSDCA National, and the judge thought the dog was worthy of the award. Dogs that are related select excellent are OFA'd. Dogs that are only rated select are not.


----------



## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Thanks!


----------



## HeidiW (Apr 9, 2009)

OMG he is gorgeous!! Thanks for the link. wonder if he is still alive.


----------



## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

He should be...he'd only be 9


----------



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

GSDElsa said:


> I'm definitely not a conformation person, but the sneakers and warm-ups pants look of most dog sports irks me deep down. Although i don't think appearence should at all be a deciding factor with a judge.


I'm just the opposite, what irks me is that if you are working with animals why people dress like if they are about to go to a wedding.


----------



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Samba said:


> Bill-Mars Here Comes Trouble
> 
> Bil-Mar’s Here Comes Trouble


Wow! That dog is extreme!


----------



## HeidiW (Apr 9, 2009)

Catu said:


> Wow! That dog is extreme!


I am sure it is the pose/stance. His daughter and granddaughter are not extreme.


----------



## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Yeah, I'd actually consider Trouble to be a pretty moderate dog.


----------



## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Re: video.

It actually seems like the second handler person is more distracting than anything. Interesting.


----------



## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> It actually seems like the second handler person is more distracting than anything. Interesting.


I can't watch, so would you mind describing what you're seeing?


----------



## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Xeph said:


> That is the reason most people INSIST that you get a handler and double your dog. Because the dog will move out better and look for you. They are not terribly attached to the person showing them so they don't look behind them.
> 
> I personally have not found this to be true, and am often complimented on how well my bitch shows for me. I cannot rely on a doubler even if I wanted to. Mirada shows well for me, but she's Jon's dog. She's very bonded to him. If he's at a show, he needs to ignore her for awhile before ring time, and if he wants to watch, he either hides, or doesn't acknowledge her.
> 
> ...


Tennis shoes and tie-dyed tee! You'd get first every time if I were judging!:wub:


----------



## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Xeph said:


> I can't watch, so would you mind describing what you're seeing?


The double handler is standing in the left corner of the ring doing their thing and the dog they were obviously there to help kept wanting to drag the main handler over to that person. At one point when they were trotting around the ring indiviudally it looked like he was beelining it over to the second person. And I didn't have sound on but he seemed like he was being whiny and distracted by the person when they were standing by that corner.


----------



## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> The double handler is standing in the left corner of the ring doing their thing and the dog they were obviously there to help kept wanting to drag the main handler over to that person.


Yup. That's acceptable in the specialty ring.



> Tennis shoes and tie-dyed tee! You'd get first every time if I were judging!


LOL Doc! I'm trying to keep that shirt in good condition for you xD


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Once she got trained, Minnie quit doing a lot of that pulling. She learned the only way to get to your person is to gait. But they do have to be trained and learn it. Minnie will run the ring now without a lead because she has it down. Depending on how much they get out and how much training... they can be balky jumping and starting and stopping. Sometimes it seems people may rely too much on the doubling and not get enough training in.

Doubling isn't allowed in the all-breed ring and generally isn't needed.


----------



## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

There are also many people that like to let their dogs just "learn on the job" :-/


----------



## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Xeph said:


> There are also many people that like to let their dogs just "learn on the job" :-/


That's for sure. Dog shows become expensive training classes!


----------



## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

I don't like it simply because it seems to result in a hectic dog. I fully understand that people have jobs and kids, but just taking 5-10 minutes every day to at least teach the dog how to stack would be nice.

I overall very much enjoy showing, but have learned I prefer all breeds to specialties.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Catu said:


> I'm just the opposite, what irks me is that if you are working with animals why people dress like if they are about to go to a wedding.


Me too! If your going to be doing a bunch of running around you should be able to wear comfortable clothes. And a woman wearing a skirt and blouse looks ridiculous in sneakers.


----------



## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> And a woman wearing a skirt and blouse looks ridiculous in sneakers.


That's why I wear pants! xD


----------



## emjworks05 (May 30, 2008)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Me too! If your going to be doing a bunch of running around you should be able to wear comfortable clothes. And a woman wearing a skirt and blouse looks ridiculous in sneakers.


Glad that I am not the only one who thinks it looks funny! I always wear pants too.


----------



## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Me too! If your going to be doing a bunch of running around you should be able to wear comfortable clothes. And a woman wearing a skirt and blouse looks ridiculous in sneakers.


I do agree THAT looks a little silly. But I think there is a happy medium being looking skuzzy and looking properly turned out.

Hey, if I can sprint after my horse for a mile in tall boots, a helmet, and a vest after her dumps me on the cross country course...dog people in all venues can wear nice slacks, a trim polo, and a pair of non-white 80's sneakers!


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Funny, I think Kelly and Liz always look pretty good in their "skirts". It is easier to run in than pants and is actually tennis wear. If I still had the legs, I'd do it but that's not going to happen!

In the all-breed ring, I see actual skirts and athletic shoes. I guess I never thought about it... me, always too attracted by dogs!


----------



## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Samba said:


> Funny, I think Kelly and Liz always look pretty good in their "skirts". It is easier to run in than pants and is actually tennis wear. If I still had the legs, I'd do it but that's not going to happen!
> 
> In the all-breed ring, I see actual skirts and athletic shoes. I guess I never thought about it... me, always too attracted by dogs!


They do look good in their skirts...it's just the skirt and tennis shoe combo that looks a little silly!

Maybe they need to design a shell for tennis shoes that look like dress shoes :rofl:


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

when I showed , I usually work a skort, nice shirt (not a real dressy shirt but appropriate) and high top black sneakers, they rather blended in and didn't stand out to much especially showing a black dog

I never wore jeans or t shirts, even in obedience, but I don't think I overdressed either. Agility, ? whole different ballgame, jeans, shorts, t shirt and good running sneakers

I'll have to see if I have any pics I can scan of my old 'show' days


----------



## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> It is easier to run in than pants and is actually tennis wear.


Really? I find skirts to be extremely uncomfortable.


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Well what our handler has on is not a skirt. It is a tennis skort, short with built in undergarment of same material. I used to wear them all the time in tennis. Very comfortable and allows easy movement. I would definitely choose one over pants to run in.
For sure, athletic shoes "go" with them. I think that varicose veins do not though.


----------



## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Samba said:


> Are these things real or just the grumblings of dissastisfied exhibitors? Who knows?


 A bit of both. There certainly are political judges. There are breeds which are much more competitive than others and show ring politics often seem to be more widespread in those breeds (and GSDs are one of them). However, there are a lot of owner-handlers or breeder-owner-handlers who do just fine with their dogs. 

The fact is, most dogs at dog shows are well bred dogs who are considered show quality by at least some people. And at every show, no matter how many dogs are entered only one male and one female will get points. We've seen GSD entries here of 60+ dogs, that leaves room for a lot of disappointed people after judging. Standards present an outline of an ideal dog of the breed. Dogs with disqualifying faults per the standard are not going to finish. Dogs with glaringly obvious, very serious faults are not going to finish. Everything else is extremely subjective. 




HeidiW said:


> I am sure it is the pose/stance. His daughter and granddaughter are not extreme.


 The "stance" doesn't alter the structure of the dog. Dogs have to have fairly extreme rears to be stacked in that manner. Just because a dog is extreme, doesn't mean he will always sire extreme dogs, it would depend on what he was bred to.


----------

