# How can 10 month old GSD have kidney failure?



## Veeru (Sep 1, 2011)

My GSD 'VEERU' is ill. His creatinine content is 4.44 and BUN is 48. He is only 10 months old and very active. I read that usually kidney failure occurs in old age. This guy is still a puppy. Its hard to believe that my love is failing 

I just now heard that inspite of 3 days of fluid flush therapy his numbers have increased!!

Is there any other case here in this forum where they had similar problems? Any suggestions please.


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## Veeru (Sep 1, 2011)

He has become lethargic since yesterday and not eating after 2 bouts of vomiting. Stools were normal though.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I am afraid sometimes young dogs (and people) have something serious enough wrong with them that they cannot make it.

I had a pup about the same age die of kidney failure (after much money we did not have to spend was spent at the vet)....

I do wish you the best and hope he pulls through.


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## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

We just lost two of our dogs to renal failure after they got into some antifreeze. Unfortunately it is a very difficult thing to beat unless you are fighting it aggressively, and even then it may not matter. I really wish you the best, I know exactly what you're feeling right now.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

In our case, some of the breeders dogs had been poisoned by antifreeze but he thought the pups had not. We got him at 8 weeks but it took that long for probably the very small amount they ingested to do the damage. But I am sure many many things can cause kidney failure. Our own cause of death was indeterminate....but it was over 25 years ago.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Has your dog been tested for juvenile renal disease? There are certain lines that carry it, and it is genetic. Do you mind PMing me the kennel and pedigree your dog came from?

Could be other things too like people have alluded to.


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

Have you been feeding him an Chicken Jerky treats? There has been a huge problem with Jerky treats made in China causing kidney failure. Especially Waggin Train brand...

Could be anything they ate, especially if from China. If they don't mind putting lead in kids toys, do you really think they would care if a few dogs get poisoned?


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

Gizmo went thru kidney failure at a little over a year. He did improve on fluids and now 3 years later he's 100% healthy.
Originally the vet thought it might have been genetic kidney disease, but after days on fluids his numbers improved and he made it through. We assume he must have gotten into something - maybe he inhaled a pill off the floor...that was the only thing we can think of since he is always carefully supervised. 
Hope Veeru continues to improve!


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

I hope he's going to be ok. Keep up posted


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

sorry that your young dog is in there fighting the fight , here's hoping for you ..

this gives an opportunity to remind people how toxic xylitol , a sweetner in a lot of gums, toothpaste, baked goods , is . In one case a dog required immediate veterinary care because he had ingested 3 gum wrappers . snopes.com: Xylitol Deadly to Dogs

Broccoli -- seen in so many home cooked meals for dogs has a substance , isothiocyanate , that according to AVMA and CVMA , that is toxic.

once again hope for the best 
Carmen


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

There is a member here, UConngsd, who has a dog named Wolfie who was diagnosed with renal failure at about the same age. In his case it was due to an e-coli infection. 

It really depends on the reason for the renal failure. As other posters have said, ingestion of toxins can also cause renal failure as can contaminated food. 

Hopefully his creatine and BUN will come down with the IV fluids.


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## 1sttimeforgsd (Jul 29, 2010)

So sorry that your young pup is so ill, hope that he will start improving soon.


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## Veeru (Sep 1, 2011)

*Just came back from the Vet Hospital.*

Thanks to all for your words of hope! If so many people are wishing then God must listen!

The latest report: Creatinine=4.72(was 4.44 3 days back)
BUN=33(was 48, phew decreased!, but range is 0-20)
Heamoglobin=11.4(was 12, minimum is 13.5)
SGPT=63 U/I(range 0-40)

The doc said it is rare that such a young dog has a kidney failure. He is suspecting infections and poisoning. Another one is Nephrotic syndrome which is also a possibility he says. The last option would be peritone dialysis. He was on fluids this evening and he ate rice and potato soup just after coming back home. Will be feeding an egg also. The doc prescribed 'Azodyle' tablets.

He is feeling a bit active now, probably due to the fluids he received. Lets see how he is tomorrow. I hope it is a case of infection or poisoning, and it is solved soon.


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## Veeru (Sep 1, 2011)

@phgsd: For how many days was Gizmo on fluids? Veeru is 3 1/5 days on fluids along with usual food.

Veeru is crazy about tomatoes and papaya, he eats even rottten ones lying on the side walk when i am not seeing. Maybe he has picked up some infection from there. Or was it from the raw meat i gave him few months back? I dont know.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Is there any chance he could have gotten Ibuprofen, Tylenol or Xylitol? 
One of our dogs is in kidney failure due to accidental ibuprofen ingestion in which he almost passed away. He's okay now but must be kept on a low protein diet.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Veeru--

Where do you live? 

The creatine is really the important number in the kidney values. The BUN indicates hydration. 

You should join this list: K9KIDNEYS : for owners of dogs with Kidney Disease

They should be able to give you the most help. 

I hope your dog recovers.


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## jprice103 (Feb 16, 2011)

BR870 said:


> Have you been feeding him an Chicken Jerky treats? There has been a huge problem with Jerky treats made in China causing kidney failure. Especially Waggin Train brand...


 
Where did you hear this? I tried to search the internet for this and couldn't find anything. We give our dogs Waggin Train Chicken Jerky...and now I'm scared!

NEVERMIND: I found all the info! Yikes! I will be throwing these away immediately!!!!


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

Raw meat will not cause kidney failure. Lots of us on the forum feed raw diets with great results.

For Gizmo - I don't remember the exact number of days he was on fluids. I didn't want to leave him alone at the vet's overnight, the first night because we weren't sure he'd make it and I didn't want him to die alone since the vet is not staffed at night. And I hoped that being at home with us would keep his spirits higher than being alone that the vet's. So they put him on Sub-Q fluids and gave him something to settle his stomach that evening and then had me bring him back first thing the next day for IV fluids all day, and then I brought him home again the next night with Sub-Q fluids and repeated that for maybe 5 days. 

After the first night he was perkier - still not completely himself, but not at death's door. In 3 days he was much much better and within a week or so he was back to normal.

It was really scary - and especially scary since he is a little guy at only 15 lbs and a pill (whatever it might have been) would have hit him a lot harder than a GSD. But he is a tough cookie! At first I didn't even think he was really sick - he was just acting depressed and lethargic. I thought maybe a nice hike would perk him up so took him out on a long hike and he just trucked along. But when we got back I tried to feed him and he wouldn't eat, and I knew something was really wrong. When we brought him to the vet, he knew what the problem was just from smelling his breath.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

If the raw meat had e. Coli on it, and the dog became infected with that, it could cause kidney failure. In humans it does that, and I've heard of dogs becoming ill with e. Coli.


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

Raw meat from months ago? Don't think so...some kind of toxin is more likely...


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## shilohsmom (Jul 14, 2003)

There are two drugs you might check out, Epakitin and Azodyl. They are put out by Vetoquinol. Ask you Vet about them.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/health-issues/148638-15-month-old-pup-renal-failure.html
This thread may be of help...though the outcome was not good, but there may be info in it that is of interest.


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## cta (May 24, 2011)

i cannot offer any wisdom, just well wishes for your pup. i hope it all turns out ok for him. best of luck to you guys.


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

jprice103 said:


> Where did you hear this? I tried to search the internet for this and couldn't find anything. We give our dogs Waggin Train Chicken Jerky...and now I'm scared!
> 
> NEVERMIND: I found all the info! Yikes! I will be throwing these away immediately!!!!


Yeah, we had Abbie eating them for a few weeks. She loved them. But then I came across the same info and nearly flipped. Threw all of them away immediately...


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## malinois_16 (Aug 8, 2010)

Veeru said:


> @phgsd: For how many days was Gizmo on fluids? Veeru is 3 1/5 days on fluids along with usual food.
> 
> Veeru is crazy about tomatoes and papaya, he eats even rottten ones lying on the side walk when i am not seeing. Maybe he has picked up some infection from there. Or was it from the raw meat i gave him few months back? I dont know.


My dog is on a raw diet..he doesnt have kidney failure. Raw meat is fine for dogs to consume..I lost my guy at 7 months to kidney/liver failure...


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## shilohsmom (Jul 14, 2003)

From DogAware.com:
*Jerky Treats Imported from China Reportedly Causing Kidney Failure in Dogs*

Complaints about jerky treats causing kidney failure continue as of July 2011, and the cause is still unknown. Now dogs in Canada are also getting sick. See *Jerky treats for dogs still suspected in illness* for the latest information.Also see *Canadian VMA Cautions About Chicken Jerkey Treats* (June 2011). 
*Signs to watch for include decreased appetite; decreased activity (lethargy); vomiting; diarrhea, sometimes with blood; and increased water consumption and/or increased urination. *
*The type of kidney failure associated with chicken jerky strips is called acquired Fanconi syndrome. Urine test results consistently show glucose and granular casts. Blood tests may show hypokalemia (low potassium), mildly increased liver enzymes, and acidosis. *
*If your dog develops these signs and test results while being fed chicken jerky treats, the AVMA says, "you should contact your state Food and Drug Administration (FDA) Consumer Complaint Coordinator. For a state-by-state list of Coordinators, go to http://www.fda.gov/opacom/backgrounders/complain.html. Please include as much information as possible, including the specific product name, lot numbers, veterinarian's report and diagnosis, etc." *
*Please avoid feeding chicken jerky strips from China to dogs until we know conclusively that they are safe. Note that these products often appear to be made in the US, but if you search carefully, you'll find "Made in China" in tiny print somewhere on the bag.*
If you're looking for safe jerky treats, I recommend Smart Dog Jerky and Kona's Chips, made in the U.S. You can also make your own jerky using a dehydrator or a warm oven.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

Has your vet tested for Lepto (which if caught early enough can be treated!)

Leptospirosis - Page 1
Canine Leptospirosis, An Overview


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

The jerky from China really scares me, I only buy Kona's Chips- made in CA or I make my own. But th OP never said anything about feeding them. Hope Veeru is ok


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Anything foodwise from China is worrisome....
I hope Veeru pulls thru


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I'm going to assume that they checked the heart for things like murmurs, as that can cause those numbers to rise too, if the heart isn't pumping enough blood to the organs.

Infections can also cause this. E. Coli urinary tract infections. Lyme disease, which can also be passed from the mother, can cause this. Raw meat, to susceptible individuals, depending on what was in the meat, cannot be ruled out. Kibble cannot be ruled out, or treats.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Is he urinating? As much as he is bringing in? We have had a couple of young dogs recently with kidney failure, one was attributed to antifreeze, the other we nor the owners could figure it out.
His numbers are still high, but if his kidneys are putting out urine, that is a good thing.


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## EastGSD (Jul 8, 2001)

I have another one to add to the pile...

My best friend's male GSD was exposed to a neighbor's pup with Parvo when he was very young (was vaccinated) he did get *mildly* ill and recovered just fine. What my friend and I did not realize is that the Parvo virus can and does leave behind scaring on some organs and this dog got hit very hard in the kidneys  He was always happy and active but always on the skinny side. It was when my friend started looking into why he just would not gain weight (like maybe 2yrs of age) that others suggested having his kidneys looked at due to the parvo incident....they were right  The vet could not believe that this dog had been so active (showing in the US, traveled to Canada and got points at 2 shows etc) ....she lost him a few weeks later. Was tragic and just terrible  But yeah, sometimes we may forget something that does not seem to have been significant and then later on comes back to haunt it's victims....


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## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

I truly hope the best for you. We just lost two dogs to kidney failure, but by the time the vet was willing to take action it was too late for them. He is in my prayers.


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## Veeru (Sep 1, 2011)

*Today...*

He is diagnosed with 'Glomerulonephritis'. The Albumin content in urine is high. The Doc said something has/is poisoning his kidney, and his nephrons are dying...we should try to save as much of the remaining kidney as possible. He added in the end that he can come out and told me not to worry. I Hope with all my heart that he is successful.

His stool colour was dark orange and brown in colour this afternoon and just now(night) it was 'yellow as usual'. Brown is associated with kidney failure. He is active now but still some lethargy remains. He is not eating most of the things he used to and thats worrisome. He is not even touching the Prescription Hill's K/D food. He prefers the usual Royal Canine for German shepherds.

Tomorrow another check for creatinine!


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## Veeru (Sep 1, 2011)

Our previous GSD pup died of parvo virus. He was with us for two weeks only. But there was a gap of 3 months before this pup came in.


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## Veeru (Sep 1, 2011)

@wyomingrandma:Yes he is urinating, induced with Lasix and also drinking water.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I hope that Veeru is ok. i think it would be best to feed him a home cooked diet right now. Kibble is very hard on the kidneys. 


Does your vet know your previous pup died of parvo? I have always understood that you should wait 6 months to a year before bringing in a new pup after parvo.


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## malinois_16 (Aug 8, 2010)

I heard parvo can last for up to a year in an environment such as a house. My friends dog died of parvo and their vet said to not get another one for at least a year


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## Veeru (Sep 1, 2011)

@Stosh: No we didnt give him any of those Jerky treats.
@Barb E:May the Doc has considered it, but i will ask once.
@malinois_16: We never keep meat in the freezer for more that 2 days. Raw is given on the same day when the animal was slaughtered. We dont know much about meat preservation as our Family is vegetarian.
@onyx'girl:Thanks for the link!
@shilohsmom:Yeah he is on Azodyl now.
@phgsd: Veeru is on fluids 1 hr in the morning and 1 hr in the evening. Was Gizmo on I.V fluids the whole day for 5 days? Thats UREA smell from the mouth. He is feeling better than yesterday but not eating.
@BowWowMeow: I live in Bangalore, India. Thanks a lot for the link.

Thanks to you all for all the info.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Since you're in India I know it's easy to get homeopathic remedies. Nux vomica is very useful for kidney failure.

Here are some other remedies with specific indications: 

Dog Kidney Failure - ABC Homeopathy Forum


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## Veeru (Sep 1, 2011)

I am reading so much about the disease and the food i should be giving him, that i am overwhelmed. The Doc says confidently that veeru will pull through but the cases i read on the internet make me loose hope  Whatever it is I will try my best. 

Going for another round of fluids and a blood test now.
(He is still depressed and doesnt readily eat, it scares me!)


Thanks for the link Ruth!


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## Crabtree (Jan 6, 2006)

Nothing medical to ad, just hopes and prayers for a swift recovery. :hugs:


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I have been through this with my cat (who is 19 now and going strong) and I also know the person I mentioned from this board whose dog was diagnosed with renal failure due to an e-coli infection. Both of us went with a home made diet (she eventually transitioned her dog to raw) and holistic treatment.

Your dog is not eating because he feels nauseous. The nux vomica should help with that--I have used it for years with Cleo, my cat. Can you get slippery elm (the herb) there? If not you can also use marshmallow root for nausea. You make a paste and give it to them about 20 minutes before eating and it really helps. It also has nutritive value. 

Check out this article on kidney diets: Kidney Diet | B-Naturals.Com Newsletter


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## Veeru (Sep 1, 2011)

Back from the Clinic and veeru seems to be back to his norm!!!!!! He is feeling energetic and has started troubling my sister again. Hope he remains like that. 

I will now concentrate on developing a good diet for him.Still reading some web resources. I am getting hope that these dark clouds will pass 

I read the other thread about the 15 month old pup laid to rest. That was unfortunate. I feel the food we provide to our dogs is to be blamed for many illnesses. The stray dogs near my home eat exactly what their body needs and never have to go to the Vet.


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## Veeru (Sep 1, 2011)

@Ruth: I will definitely get that Nux Vomica but i am sure those herbs will be difficult to get here.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

So happy to hear he's feeling better. Where do you live?


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

shilohsmom said:


> There are two drugs you might check out, Epakitin and Azodyl. They are put out by Vetoquinol. Ask you Vet about them.


I second this recommendation. My senior cat has kidney disease and she is on these two medications (along with some others.)


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

The OP lives in India and the dog is already on Azodyl. 

Azodyl is basically a probiotic with some extra fiber. Instead of paying the money for Azodyl I give Cleo a high powered powdered probiotic. 

Epakatin is a phosphate binder. It is only necessary if your animal has high phosphorous levels.


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## Veeru (Sep 1, 2011)

*Good so far.....*

Hey all! I am sorry for the delay, i stay at the clinic till late night and theres not enough time when i get back home.

Veeru's creatinine has stabilised! 4.76 from 4.72 We are expecting that it will go down in the coming days. But the BUN has gone too high 92!!!! from 33 :help: and phosphorous is 2 times the max value. The rest of the details are within normal range  
His urine test report is showing E-COLI infection!!!! The doc is giving some big dose of antibiotics to overcome it. E-coli is the reason his creatinine levels are not coming down. Once e-coli is taken care of i think very soon all else will come down to normal levels. His urine test report came just now and shows that all is normal

He is still not eating enough and not drinking enough water We are now force feeding(with high water content) him. I am searching for Nux Vomica but not getting it. I will have to inquire in more places still.

I am now getting confidence that he will get through all of this mess. Moreover when so many such good people like you all are here to help, God will surely be listening


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## Veeru (Sep 1, 2011)

Ruth! That powdered probiotic you are giving Cleo, is it home prepared? if so is it easy to prepare? Azodyl will prove to be too expensive here (with import taxes) for long term usage!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Wonderful news that they know the cause and can now treat appropriately. Will keep you in my thoughts that he continues to get well.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

Thanks for the update. I'm sure he's glad to have you near


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## Veeru (Sep 1, 2011)

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/R_NHY23Wta7D9Hpuwv-QhQ?feat=directlink

He is taller but a lot thinner now.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

He's beautiful!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Nox vomica is a native tree to India !!! The tinctures are made in India India Nux Vomica, India Nux Vomica Manufacturers, India Nux Vomica Suppliers and Companies on Alibaba.com

Tree known as strychnine tree.

Maybe this will help.

I would give the dog probiotics as well. 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Ok, I've got to get you in touch with UConnGSD as her dog Wolfie's kidney problems stem from an e-coli infection. I sent her a message on FB so hopefully she'll be on to help you. 

I am glad to hear that things are improving but I guess once things stabilize he will still have CRF. 

I buy the probiotic mix but they do make it up by hand. Look at the ingredients in Azodyl and see if you can find the same probiotics.


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## UConnGSD (May 19, 2008)

Got your message, Ruth, thank you!

Veeru, I am so sorry that your little guy and you are going through this ordeal. As Ruth mentioned before, my Wolfie got diagnosed with Stage III chronic renal failure at 8 months and he is now 3+ years old. His creatinine is now at 6.7 and BUN 85 and Phos 8.3. While dogs don't deal with kidney disease as well as cats, there are still some things that you can do to slow down the progression of the disease. Unfortunately, allopathic medicine did not give me any hope other than the Hills K/D diet which Wolfie wouldn't touch -- he would rather starve. Plus, that diet is pretty much junk, imho. So, I cook for him and I give him a whole bunch of supplements. Let me address each issue one by one.

1) Diet: Since Veeru's creatinine is already over 4.5, I would take some drastic steps in terms of his diet. Dr. Martin Goldstein's animal health book recommends the following formula: 1/2 grains, 1/4 meat and 1/4 veggies. In fact, try to get as much green veggies into your pup as possible. Since they don't process veggies the way we do, I steam the veggies until they are a bright green color and then puree it in a food processor. I make a large batch at once enough for a month and keep them in small containers in the freezer and take them out as needed. About the meat, while I give mine raw meat, since you are in India, I would recommend cooking the meat. I am originally from Calcutta and my sister still lives in Pune & Bombay. Her Pune vet, even though he is a proponent of raw feeding, advised against feeding her GSD raw meat because of quality concerns about non-veg items in predominantly veg India (slaughtering of diseased livestock and so on). His views were that if she lived in the US, he would have heartily supported but not in India. If you do decide to cook the meat, please do not cook the bones as they will splinter and cause major internal problems. You can skip bones altogether and give calcium supplements instead (two 600 mg caps in split doses is usually what's recommended, if no bones are being given). As for grains, rice is an excellent option in India. You might have better luck getting him to eat the rice if you use ground meat and really mix it in.

A note regarding the green veggies: some dogs don't like them, like mine. So I spike my veggies with either butter, coconut oil, garlic, ghee or sesame oil. On the days he has even more problems with his veggies, I have had to add a little bit of the flavorings such as soy sauce, tomato sauce, mild paprika, bbq sauce, etc.

2) Supplements: Wolfie is on all of the following ones right now. Unless, otherwise mentioned, he gets them everyday.
a) Crystal Star Tinkle-eze: http://www.healthyhealing.com/downloads/crystalstar.tinkle-eze.pdf
b) Vitamin B-12 250 mcg
c) Raw kidney glandular: Swanson Premium Raw Kidney Glandular 500 mg 60 Caps - Swanson Health Products
d) Vitamin E 400 IU
e) Renal Essentials: Renal Essentials For Dogs - Kidney health support for dogs, vitamins, supplements
f) Vitamin A 10,000 IU (I make sure I don't give this with the Vit E, as they inhibit absorption)
g) Buffered Vitamin C 2,000 mg
h) Salmon oil 
i) Cod liver oil (as a natural Vitamin D supplement. If Veeru's Phos is under 6, you can give him Calcitriol, another form of the Vit D. Calcitriol also regulates the parathyroid hormone which acts up in dogs with renal disease)
j) Quantum Kidney-Bladder Formula: Bladder - Quantum Herbal Products - Kidney-Bladder Formula - 1 fl oz
k) Pet UTI Prevention Combo (once a week maintenance): Cat and Dog Urinary Tract Infections
l) Anemia supplement (3 times a week): Genesis Resources Blood & Energy Support Dog & Cat Supplement
Because kidney disease also results in anemia. You will need to see what Veeru's HCT counts are like to see if he needs it yet.

I know that this is a lot of info to process. But you can start with one and then add more as you get things squared up. My reason for giving the links is so that you can find suitable alternatives in India by looking up the ingredients list. Some of these natural remedies have Ayurvedic origins but you might need to find out the Indian names of the herbs in the ingredient list and then look it up. Also, as Ruth mentioned before, I always keep Nux Vom handy. Kidney disease often results in nausea and vomiting and Nux Vom works wonder for that.

I hope we can soon put the brakes on Veeru's kidney issues -- it's a tough road :hugs: By the way, Veeru is a very handsome guy :wub:


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Any updates?


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## Veeru (Sep 1, 2011)

If veeru could read he would have been ecstatic at being called handsome 

Veeru's creatinine has come down to 4.2!!! BUN is down to 30!!! All other details are in range i was told. He was receiving fluids twice a day, now it would be only once a day. Phew! Now i can clear up some pending office work. As i scour the internet for other cases, that FEAR is still sitting beside me,.....even though the Doc advises that he will come out for sure.


@Ruth: Thanks a lot for the referral. That was kind of you.
@UConnGSD:Hey that was really great of you to give all those info. You would be a great resource for me in future too. I will take some time to assimilate all the detailed info. You must have really worked hard for 3+ years.



We are right now giving him beef soup (with few meat pieces,bone-less) as it is low in phosphorous. Nothing raw yet. And egg yellow. The rest is home prepared veg food. Of course there is Hill's K diet but he eats little bit in excitement and then shuns it. Some times i mix usual royal canine kibbles to bring some taste. 

Actually, we are right now concentrating on giving him more and more water and making him urinate more so that his numbers come down...and his kidney heals. I will begin collecting/researching the right kind of food in a couple of days.

Oh my God! today one more case of kidney failure came to the hospital. 8 years old Lab with creatinine levels at 13!!! So bad. I feel there is some mistake being done by we human owners. We are not feeding our dogs the right kind of food. I believe food is the first and the biggest medicine.

Need some answers here please....
1)Veeru is sort of Hyper today. He wouldnt stay on the 'Hospital Bed' for long. Is it a sign of any problem (high blood pressure) ?
2) His stools colour is mostly yellow and 30-20% of the times it is dark/brownish. Is it any indication of his health?
3)Is wheat with milk any problem to his kidneys?
4)I always thought that once his kidney heals of the E-coli infection, it would start doing its work the usual way albeit in a lesser capacity. But why is Wolfie's creatinine level still high? Is it that Veeru (and wolfie) will always have to contend with impure blood all his life?
5) @UConnGSD: How much was Wolfie's creatinine levels when he was diagnosed with Kidney problem?(stage 3=?)
6)Is anemia an immediate threat? His blood count was in normal range.


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## Veeru (Sep 1, 2011)

He Vomited once 1.5 days back but that was all.....no continuous vomiting and no diarrhea. Since this problem started he has vomited only twice.


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## UConnGSD (May 19, 2008)

You are welcome! 

To answer your questions:

1) Maybe he's feeling a bit better and doesn't want to be in bed anymore? That's understandable.
2) Poop color sounds fine to me...
3) I would avoid milk when it comes to dogs. Very few can tolerate it. But yogurt is very good for them. Wolfie loves it! 
4 & 5) Unfortunately, kidney disease is degenerative. Severe e-coli infections can cause permanent damage to the kidneys and it is very very hard to reverse. When Wolfie got diagnosed with Stage III CRF at 8 months, his creatinine was 3.2 and BUN was 53. The most significant number is the creatinine. The BUN mostly reflects the level of hydration, however hydration is not going to bring down the creatinine. What we try to do is slooooow down the progression of the disease as much as possible. 
6) Anemia becomes more of a threat when the creatinine gets around 7, from what I'm seeing. It's just one more thing to look out for in future bloodworks.


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## Veeru (Sep 1, 2011)

@UConnGSD: Thanks for the answers. 
He seems to be normal till now. No lethargy, no continuous Vomiting, no loose motion. Playful as usual. Whatever it is, he must lead a normal life, now and in future, somehow. Otherwise i am going to put a final curse on god. It will be over forever.

There is a blood test coming up tomorrow. I will tell you all when i get the report on Tuesday.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Veeru said:


> There is a blood test coming up tomorrow. I will tell you all when i get the report on Tuesday.


Good luck with the blood test.

Just a word of caution.

Hopefully he will get to the point where he appears recovered from this ( :fingerscrossed: ), however, do not let your guard down. These bacteria are pretty nasty, and if there are any left in the "pipe" so to speak, they may still do damage. If they get out, further into the system, they can cause more systemic damage. So definitely ongoing monitoring and care, targeted specifically towards eliminating e.coli.

I wish I knew a good long term herbal for this. There are herbals and supplements to support the kidneys, digestive function, etc., all the things that UConnGSD has been so great at doing (she has done wonders with Wolfie!!), but I wish I had a better idea to target the e.coli specifically. I think that UConn's item (k) is doing this?


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## UConnGSD (May 19, 2008)

Aww, thanks Lisa for the kind words :wub: You and Ruth lit the fire of learning more about canine health and disease in me and I learned a lot from you guys.

Fingers crossed for Tuesday. I have to reiterate what Lisa said about not letting your guard down. E-coli infections are nasty things to begin with and they have a horrible habit of recurring. I am using item (k) to (hopefully) prevent future e-coli infections. Is Veeru on antibiotics right now for the e-coli?


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## Veeru (Sep 1, 2011)

Even my dad said E-Coli is hard and takes a long time to tackle. I will keep checking his blood/urine regularly. 
Yes he is getting a strong dose of antibiotics for E-coli right now.


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## Veeru (Sep 1, 2011)

Creatinine 4.46 BUN 54 Phosphorous 9(max 6) 

The rest all is in range.

The Doc says he is going to be normal confidently. I am hoping that he is right. Creatinine is actually stabilized. The antibiotic was being given in a 24hr gap interval. Where as the gap should have been 12hr. So have brought the antibiotics home. Will give it to Veeru myself. And around 4.5 ltrs of water per day! Phew!
I have got the test reports with me, if anybody wants to analyse is i will mail it to them. The Lab i was talking about earlier was put to sleep 
The battle is still on.


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## Veeru (Sep 1, 2011)

Is this going the same way as other cases?


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## Veeru (Sep 1, 2011)

@UconnGSD: How did you take care of the E-coli infection? Was it a long drawn fight?


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## gsd_newbie (Aug 23, 2011)

Few years ago my friend's puppy die due to the kidney failure, this little puppy was only 9 months old. At the same time, more than 100 greyhounds of the Vungtau Race Track died and the operator has forced to suspend races. The given reason was that dogs being feed with low quality Pedigree kibble, caused their kidneys failure.


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## UConnGSD (May 19, 2008)

Thanks for the update. I am very glad that the creatinine has stabilized. Let's hope it stays that way. I hate to say this... and I know that it is absolutely essential to stay positive as your doctor is, BUT once the creatinine gets that high, imho the kidney function is already compromised. Mind you, Veeru will remain his bouncy self, hopefully for a long time to come. (Wolfie, even with a creatinine of 6.7, is a happy, naughty and fairly active dog.) But realistically, I am doubtful of the doctor's claim that his kidneys will be normal again and I'll be perfectly honest with you, it worries me that a vet would make a claim like that... 

This is a degenerative disease and unlike the liver, kidneys cannot unfortunately be healed to the point of complete normalcy once their function has been compromised to this extent. Especially, with the phosphorus level so alarmingly high. Again, you know... I understand how we desperately hope for a normal prognosis at the end of the tunnel... I have been there myself. And I had taken Wolfie to Cornell University vet hospital several times (which is one of the best vet hospitals in the US) and he got diagnosed with CRF there and the vets there were very clear on this issue of degeneracy of the kidney disease. I took that information, cried my eyes out for a day, toughened myself up for Wolfie's sake and got down to business making it my mission to slow down the disease progression. 

This was a little over 2.5 years ago. Every birthday that Wolfie has is a personal victory for me. And looking at him, no one can tell that he is walking around with only 1/3 of his kidneys working (that's essentially what his creatinine of 6.7 means). So Veeru WILL have a normal life in the sense that he will be his cheerful, happy self but some accommodations must be made to help him deal with his weak kidneys. Sorry for the long response and I sincerely apologize for going off like this, but it did bother me when I read what your vet said. I am a very practical, realistic person and I feel most effective when I know what I am up against as opposed to somebody painting me a rosy picture just to make me feel better. So probably that's why it bothered me so...

So what can we do to help Veeru? The diet is the most important thing. So let's figure that one out first. Can you please post what his diet is like now? We can start from there. Since the phos is so high, you can ask your vet about phosphate binders. They help quite a bit in bringing that down. Calcium tablets can also be used as phosphate binders but that depends on what else Veeru is eating. That's why I will have a better picture if I see his current diet. Also, is his calcium value within normal range?

Now about the e-coli, Wolfie actually had an e-coli infection first, was put on Clavamox for 10 days, urine was checked, e-coli cleared up. A week later e-coli appeared again and this time it was a really bad infestation. He was put on Clavamox again. Around that time, we started consulting the Cornell vets and he was actually put on a higher dose of Clavamox (12 hour gaps) for an entire month to make sure that the bugs are completely out of his system.


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## Veeru (Sep 1, 2011)

Thanks for your reply. For some reasons my heart refuses to believe that it is degenerative disease. But my mind knows that the signals it is getting, points to hard times ahead. Thanks again for being direct in your response.

We havent sat down and planned his diet yet. Waiting for the vet to complete his treatment. But this is what we are giving him these days:
-Curd Rice*
-Beef soup(couple of meat pieces)+Rice*
-Chapati+Milk*
-Bananas*
-Papaya*
-Milk+Rice
-Finger Millet porridge
-Hills K/D(with 1/3 usual kibbles)*
-Chicken/Mutton soup
-Dosa
-Idly(rare)
-Icecream/Biscuits(rare)
-Egg yellow*

*only these are being given now. 

Mostly meals are specially prepared for him i.e no salt and no cooking oil.

He is getting Cefotoximine injections for E-coli, 12 hr intervals from today. For the past 3 days, he was given 1 litre IV fluids and one antibiotics shot(per day). It wasnt enough so the creatinine has slightly risen/refusing to come down/seemingly stabilized. I am taking this as a good sign. By being more aggressive it will come down most probably. Looking at your case i think the injections will continue for a longer period.
He is being given calcium acetate tablets since yesterday. 'Envas' for maintaining his blood pressure. And lots of water and urination.

Do you mean to say that his creatinine will always be above 4 from now onwards?


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## UConnGSD (May 19, 2008)

Veeru said:


> Thanks for your reply. For some reasons my heart refuses to believe that it is degenerative disease. But my mind knows that the signals it is getting, points to hard times ahead.


 :hugs: I know... it's tough when they go through these things...

His diet overall looks very good at this point. Just a few comments/questions:

1) How is his poop after he gets milk?
2) Bananas are perfectly fine, as long as his potassium is in the normal range.
3) Papayas are excellent !!
4) Is Veeru's blood pressure high? If so, no salt. Otherwise, if bp is normal, a little bit of iodized salt is actually good for them.
5) There are actually some oils which are very beneficial for dogs, especially those with kidney disease. Here we get salmon oil which might be hard to get in India. But I'm sure you can get very high quality pure coconut oil -- that would be excellent! Give it to him raw though, not cooked, as that may remove almost all of the essential fatty acids (Omega-3s and -6s -- these help tremendously with kidney disease) from the oil. Dogs usually love coconut oil, so I don't think you will have any trouble getting him to eat that. The only issue is the amount. You can start with maybe half tablespoon, see if his poop is still solid, and then slowly increase it to 1 full tablespoon. Some dogs have no problems with oils, some do -- so it's hard to tell without some experimenting. A side benefit you may notice very soon after you start giving him the oil is that his coat will get more shiny and soft.
6) The Hills K/D diet... unfortunately they charge an arm-and-a-leg (especially in India, since it's imported) for a, frankly, poor quality kibble. Since Veeru has a nice menu of healthy home-cooked meals, I personally would just stick with that and ditch the kibble.



Veeru said:


> Do you mean to say that his creatinine will always be above 4 from now onwards?


There is actually a good probability that it can be reduced to less than 4 but at this point, whether it can be pushed all the way down to less than 1.2 (i.e. the normal range)... I don't know, I mean I would be LOVE to be wrong on this account but unfortunately, all the things that I have read so far tell me a different story... Just FYI, as a point of reference, I can tell you what Wolfie's creatinine has been since his diagnosis. Maybe that will give you a clearer picture.
3.2, 3.1, 3.3, 3, 3.1, 3.3, 3.1, 2.7, 2.7, 2.8, 2.8, 2.8, 2.8, 3.2, 3.1, 3.4, 3.8, 3.8, 4 (this is till Jan of this year -- I don't have the numbers from Feb onwards on my machine, so I'll upload them later).
Couple of notes:
a) These readings are never 100% accurate, there's usually a margin of error. So a couple of decimal points jump here and there don't necessarily mean much.
b) The drop that you see going from 3.1 to 2.7 -- that is significant and was achieved by ditching the kibble and switching to a fully home-prepared diet. But eventually, as you can see towards the end of that series, the disease is slowly taking over his kidneys.


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## UConnGSD (May 19, 2008)

Forgot one important thing... 

Egg yolks are VERY high in phosphorus and in kidney disease you want to keep this down (preferably get it to normal range), so I would cut that one out.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Egg whites are low in phosphorous and very beneficial for kidney disease. 

And I agree about ditching the Science Diet! It has no benefits...except for the people who make and sell it.


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## UConnGSD (May 19, 2008)

Yes, agree with the egg whites. Ruth, I have read in many places though that while the yolks can be given raw, the whites must be cooked. Because of biotin binding.


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## TheLittleBlackBook (Feb 26, 2010)

I don't know why your dog has kidney failure, but a lot of potential factors/reasons have already been stated.

My first thought (as another mentioned) was antifreeze. 1 tsp of antifreeze is enough to kill a dog, so all a dog has to do to get "really sick" is lick a drop of the stuff. For this reason, I never let any dog "go sniffing" _anywhere near_ my car or the garage. For some reason, antifreeze is irresistable to a dog, and all it takes is a single lick or two in a spot with antifreeze on it and you have either a dead dog or a huge vet bill.


Yet a lot of people don't realize that _*many household cleaners contain ingredients very similar to antifreeze*_! There has been a big outcry over the Swiffer household mop. The deadly ingredient in antifreeze is ethylene glycol, and the Swiffer Mop contains <I>Propylene glycol n-propyl%


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## TheLittleBlackBook (Feb 26, 2010)

Don't know what happened to my post above, but it got chomped :laugh:


Anyway, I will re-post (and the moderator can delete the previous post).

I don't know why your dog has kidney failure, but a lot of potential factors/reasons have already been stated.


My first thought (as another mentioned) was antifreeze. 1 tsp of antifreeze is enough to kill a dog, so all a dog has to do to get "really sick" is lick a drop of the stuff. For this reason, I never let any dog "go sniffing" _anywhere near_ my car or the garage. For some reason, antifreeze is irresistable to a dog, and all it takes is a single lick or two in a spot with antifreeze on it and you have either a dead dog or a huge vet bill.

Yet a lot of people don't realize that _*many household cleaners contain ingredients very similar to antifreeze*_! There has been a big outcry over the Swiffer household mop. The deadly ingredient in antifreeze is ethylene glycol, and the Swiffer Mop contains _Propylene glycol n-propyl ether_ which is a solvent similar to ethylene glycol. The Swiffer company claims that its chosen ingredient is "much safer" than ethylene glycol, but what exactly does "much" safer mean? Will it take 20 licks off of a Swiffer floor to kill your dog whereas it only takes 1 lick to kill it with antifreeze? Gee, how reassuring. What I do know is the Swiffer product *directly states* "may be unsafe for animals and children" on the side warnings ... and I also know that pets have a tendency to lick-and-lick the floor after this perfumed mop is used ... and finally there are a lot of people who claim the use of this mop has killed their dogs. (The truth is, many more household products than just Swiffer use potentially-deadly ingredients ...)


The point for your consideration is puppies eat and lick a lot of things, and the more chemicals you use in (and around) your home, the greater the chance your dog might ingest something that can have grave effects.


Regarding the idea that "feeding raw" can cause kidney disease, this in all likelihood is malarkey. The truth is, feeding cheap kibble is harder on a dog's system than is feeding raw. As "gsd_newbie" stated a few posts above, sometimes these low-quality kibbles can kill-off a whole yard of dogs in one fell swoop, due to an improper ingredient (or due to being chronically-difficult to digest). Aside from "gsd_newbie's" account of a kennel of dogs having been run into the ground due to poor-quality kibble, I know that ALL the aflatoxin poisonings/deaths that went 'round a few years back traced to a mold found in the rice-ingredients that were "purchased cheap" from China (though the organ affected here was the liver). The point is kibbled dogfood is generally more likely to contain some kind of toxins than feeding raw, human-grade ingredients.


Speaking of another danger caused by eating kibble, I notice that someone else's dog just died of bloat ... which, while very tragic, is *yet another* (fairly) common malady that kibble-fed dogs can get, usually deep-chested breeds, that you _never_ see happen to raw-fed dogs. But I digress ...


So, whatever caused your dog's kidney problem, it would be a good idea to pinpoint it ... lest he run into it again.


Best of luck to you,


Jack




.


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## TheLittleBlackBook (Feb 26, 2010)

UConnGSD said:


> Forgot one important thing...
> Egg yolks are VERY high in phosphorus and in kidney disease you want to keep this down (preferably get it to normal range), so I would cut that one out.


 
Maybe by the pound this is true, but 1 egg yolk only has about 60-70mg of phosphorus to it, which is a relatively low amount, so it really depends on how many eggs are given.

IMO, the biggest problem to kidneys processing proteins/micronutrients are when they're *low-quality/indigestible* ingredients. For example, high amounts of glutens, corn/soy proteins, etc. are going to be _much_ tougher on a dog's kidneys than will a clean, highly-digestible protein source like eggs. In fact, egg white is the most highly-digestible protein there is ... however ... that is in (lightly-) cooked form ... while egg yolks contain a variety of other nutrients.

Even though I am a raw fanatic, the truth is *soft-boiled* is the most nutritious manner in which to eat eggs. For some reason, the white of the egg is most nutritious/digestible when cooked ... while the yolk of the egg is its most nutritious/digestible raw ... and soft-boiled eggs address both realities by cooking the white while leaving the yolk as a liquid.

So you are correct in the statement about raw egg whites causing a biotin deficiency, and for this reason the whites are best eaten cooked, but neither they (nor a yolk or two) are a big concern in regard to phosphorus. Phosphorus can become a problem with the calcium levels are not in-sync (ideally, they should be at a 2-to-1 calcium-phosphorus ratio). This is why adding the egg _shell_ to the dog's diet is likewise recommended.

_Nitrogen_ imbalance is also a big fear, which again can come from poorly-digestible protein sources (corns/glutens/soys), which are almost invariably found in kibbles, where the the dog's body doesn't get enough *usable* protein, which means the dog's kidneys are forever over-stressed filtering these un-usable proteins out of the body.

By contrast, when properly-prepared, eggs are among the most complete, most easily-digested source of protein/nutrients there is, causing the kidneys no stress whatsoever.

Cheers,

Jack


.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Jack,

Thanks for trying to help but please read the thread. Veeru has kidney disease because of an e-coli infection. 

And just in case anyone else is reading this: raw fed dogs DO bloat. There are several raw fed dogs on this forum who have bloated.


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## UConnGSD (May 19, 2008)

Further, when the phosphorus level is as high as 9, why take chances with continuing on high phosphorus foods. Granted that egg yolks have a lot of other nutrients and they are great for dogs with healthy kidneys. But when creatinine is already over 4.5, I would try to do everything to keep the phosphorus down. And if that means trading off some nutrients, so be it.


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## TheLittleBlackBook (Feb 26, 2010)

BowWowMeow said:


> Jack,
> Thanks for trying to help but please read the thread. Veeru has kidney disease because of an e-coli infection.
> And just in case anyone else is reading this: raw fed dogs DO bloat. There are several raw fed dogs on this forum who have bloated.


 
Interesting.

The only dogs I know of that had bloat were fed kibble (usually with water added to it).

Jack


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## TheLittleBlackBook (Feb 26, 2010)

UConnGSD said:


> Further, when the phosphorus level is as high as 9, why take chances with continuing on high phosphorus foods. Granted that egg yolks have a lot of other nutrients and they are great for dogs with healthy kidneys. But when creatinine is already over 4.5, I would try to do everything to keep the phosphorus down. And if that means trading off some nutrients, so be it.


 
The amount of phosphorus that any food item gives a dog is, naturally, dependent upon a) the amount of the food given and b) the size of the dog.

Giving 2 eggs to a tiny 5-lb pomeranian would be a huge amount of phosphorus given, whereas giving those same 2 eggs to a 90-lb German shepherd would be quite minor.

Certainly a dog can survive without egg yolks, so omitting them isn't going to be pivotal. However, the point I was trying to make is that clean, biologically-available sources of food are less stressful to a dog's kidneys and system than tring to digest and pass poor-quality, hard-to-digest sources of food.

And keeping the calcium at 2x the amount of phosphorus given is what is also pivotal ...

Jack


.


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## UConnGSD (May 19, 2008)

Even though for dogs with kidney failure, it is said that calcium: phosphorus ratio can be as high as 3:1, I'm not so sure if we can just keep raising the amount of calcium to help bind the phosphorus in high-phos foods. From what my vet is telling me, high amounts of calcium can cause calcification of the kidneys, which would be deadly under these circumstances. That's why we have to keep checking their ionized calcium levels on a regular basis.

I can tell you this from my own dog's experience, during a single month, I had added an egg a day to his diet. Basically, my rationale had been the same as yours, Jack. Big mistake! His phosphorus was right on the upper bound of the normal range before that. This single diet change pushed it 2 points above normal.


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## Veeru (Sep 1, 2011)

Hey all! I am very very sorry for the delayed response. I am caught up in pending office work and looking after veeru. I will be back today evening. Going for another blood test today! Thanks for the responses still.


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## Veeru (Sep 1, 2011)

Result out just now: Creatinine 3.94 Phosphorous:Just under 6, BUN 44 Heamoglobin 10.5 (min 13.5) Calcium is normal.

I am keeping the Kibbles at bay, well 90% of the times.


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## Veeru (Sep 1, 2011)

@Jack: He had chewed a floor cleaning liquid bottle once. He took it straight out of shopping bag when no one was around. I found two-three holes in the plastic bottle with the liquid dripping on the floor. Most probably this was the cause. But there is one more point i want to tell, he was lean with less muscular mass from the 5th month(till then he was the star of the locality  ) and he used to drink a lot of water even before this bottle incident. So i really dont know what the real cause is  
I would love to feed him raw but i fear microbes like e-coli and others.

@UconnGsd & BWM: His stools are normal and colour is also ok. Just occasional vomit and sometime loose motions. But thats negligible i guess. Milk seems ok with him. He likes it a lot so we pour little milk and lots of water. Thats how we make him drink water. We are keeping his diet to the minimum (is it ok?) My thinking is to reduce the load on kidneys but still should not miss out on the basic nutrients till he heals. So now it is mostly curd rice milk and beef soup and others in very small quantities. Now that his creatinine is coming down Should i revise his diet or wait for some more time?


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## UConnGSD (May 19, 2008)

Alright!! Awesome :happyboogie:

My vote would be to stick with the curd-rice, beef-soup combo for now, since it's working for Veeru. Let's try to help the downward trend on the creatinine as much as we can. How's his weight? Energy-level?

My understanding regarding the South Indian curd is that it is very high in probiotics (multiple strains of good bacteria), plus it has a lot of essential fatty acids and other vitamins and minerals. If so, this is great for Veeru! You probably make this at home, right?


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## Veeru (Sep 1, 2011)

Hope the downward trend continues

Yes our curds is home made. Maybe we will stick to the same diet(+ one boiled egg) for another 4 days. We are giving him food in small quantities spread through out the day.

He received a steroid like medicine to stimulate his bone marrow to up the hemoglobin levels today.Otherwise we will be continuing the same treatment. 

One surprising thing is that he has gained weight(29) by 1 kg in 3 days!...even with minimal diet.
@UconnGSD: Yes he is his peppy self! The vet has advised not to let him run around too much. Just take him out for pee and come back, he said.


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## Veeru (Sep 1, 2011)

One question: For how many days does fresh beef meat last if kept in the freezer ?


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

In the freezer or in the refrigerator? If it's totally frozen then it will last indefinitely. If it's in the refrigerator then no more than 5 days.


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## Veeru (Sep 1, 2011)

BowWowMeow said:


> In the freezer or in the refrigerator? If it's totally frozen then it will last indefinitely. If it's in the refrigerator then no more than 5 days.


Ok, Its in the freezer 0 deg C. Thanks!


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Just read through this thread. I'm so sorry to hear you are going through this. Will be keeping yall in my thoughts and prayers. Hope for continued good news that he is improving.

Also - you have a handsome boy there!


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## TheLittleBlackBook (Feb 26, 2010)

Veeru said:


> @Jack: He had chewed a floor cleaning liquid bottle once. He took it straight out of shopping bag when no one was around. I found two-three holes in the plastic bottle with the liquid dripping on the floor. Most probably this was the cause. But there is one more point i want to tell, he was lean with less muscular mass from the 5th month(till then he was the star of the locality  ) and he used to drink a lot of water even before this bottle incident. So i really dont know what the real cause is
> I would love to feed him raw but i fear microbes like e-coli and others.
> 
> @UconnGsd & BWM: His stools are normal and colour is also ok. Just occasional vomit and sometime loose motions. But thats negligible i guess. Milk seems ok with him. He likes it a lot so we pour little milk and lots of water. Thats how we make him drink water. We are keeping his diet to the minimum (is it ok?) My thinking is to reduce the load on kidneys but still should not miss out on the basic nutrients till he heals. So now it is mostly curd rice milk and beef soup and others in very small quantities. Now that his creatinine is coming down Should i revise his diet or wait for some more time?


 
Aha! How long before he went downhill did this happen?

Out of curiosity, what were you feeding him previously? (The reason I ask is that many kibbles _in-and-of-themselves_ cause a dog to drink a ton of water, simply by dehydrating them).

Hope things are better 

Jack


.


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## TheLittleBlackBook (Feb 26, 2010)

UConnGSD said:


> Even though for dogs with kidney failure, it is said that calcium: phosphorus ratio can be as high as 3:1, I'm not so sure if we can just keep raising the amount of calcium to help bind the phosphorus in high-phos foods. From what my vet is telling me, high amounts of calcium can cause calcification of the kidneys, which would be deadly under these circumstances. That's why we have to keep checking their ionized calcium levels on a regular basis.


I never said to totally imbalance the calcium : phosphorus ratio with unreasonable amounts of calcium, you did. A dog dying of "kidney calcification" is not going to happen with a reasonable diet. The truth is, a person would have to try pretty hard to get that to happen to one of their dogs 

Bouncing from one extreme nutritional imbalance to another is not an idea I believe "I" ever brought up at all 

What I _did_ say was that phosphorus becomes problematic primarily when _not enough_ calcium is given along with it, which is true. If you wish to spin this truth into something else, this is entirely of your own devising ...






UConnGSD said:


> I can tell you this from my own dog's experience, during a single month, I had added an egg a day to his diet. Basically, my rationale had been the same as yours, Jack. Big mistake! His phosphorus was right on the upper bound of the normal range before that. This single diet change pushed it 2 points above normal.


Eggs weren't the only food item you were using in your dog's diet that had phosphorus; you merely chose to blame "the egg" for this 2 point overload. The truth is, you could just as easily have omitted other food items containing phosphorus and kept the eggs.

Again, my view on the matter is that the stress of processing _indigestible food items_ is harder on a dog, ultimately, than anything else ... which is why IMO small amounts of *highly-digestible* / *biologically-available* food items *in* *the right proportions* is what's best for the long term.

I also know that in 23 years of feeding/raising a kennel of between 10 and 80 dogs, I have *never* had one single dog suffer kidney failure ... ever .... but I know of many people whom I've met on my journey that have run into this problem repeatedly. It has always puzzled me that some people can't seem to get "one" dog from youth to old age without repeatedly running into this problem, or spending thousands of dollars getting them through dialysis, etc. Yet they always think "they're" the experts on proper diets 

My own personal view is that, if a dog happens to run into antifreeze (or some other toxin or poison), which causes a kidney problem, that this is understandable and could happen to anyone. If this ever happened to one of my dogs, I too would try my best to get that dog back to good health again, *if* it was determined that the cause of their malady was my own negligence, some random bacteria, or some other one-time unfortunate circumstance.

However, if (as has been suggested here) some of these dogs are just born with weak kidneys genetically, and require kid gloves and hundreds of dollars in vet bills just to keep them alive, then IMO these dogs should be put down. I would never waste my time trying to keep any dog *unfit to live* "alive." This just makes no sense. Yes it is sad, but legitimate sorrow is a valid part of life. IMO it is pathologically "sadder" to desperately try to keep eggshell dogs alive, prolonging their suffering in the process, not to mention wasting hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars trying to make a silk purse out of sow's ear.

That same time, effort, and love could be put into a *strong*, *vibrant*, *healthy* dog ... with good genetics to pass on into the future ... as opposed to spending thousands of dollars only to preserve the potential to pass on such lousy genetics and create these same problems all over again.

Responsible dog owners should step back from "the tree" of their own doggie ... so they can see *the whole forest* ... and do what has to be done to keep that genetic population healthy.

Jack


.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Jack, 

*The OP started this thread to get help for her young dog, Veeru, who has kidney failure. * If you can help her out then great but please save the judgements and rambling for your own threads. 

Also, your comment about euthanizing a young dog with CRF was insensitive and uncalled for. Again, this is a thread in the Health section from someone who is trying to help her dog. Your experiences as a commercial breeder are irrelevant. 

And for the record, CRF is not a painful or a difficult disease to handle in a dog or a cat. My 19 yo cat has been living with it for 3 years and there are dogs and cats who live happily with CRF for many years.


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## Veeru (Sep 1, 2011)

Hey everybody cool down! Let it go....

@rjvamp: Thanks a lot, veeru will be grateful to you 

Going for one more blood test tomorrow. Otherwise he is doing fine. No change in his behaviour.


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## Veeru (Sep 1, 2011)

I have to say this though..... to any commercial breeders out there reading this......
For our family, veeru is not a dog, he is just another family member. The sky and earth becomes one when a family member is having a problem such as this which could be fatal. But when you have a 'manufacturing line' running in your back yard, you wouldnt care less if there is one defective product. Next season there would be profits to offset the previous seasons losses. Oh! Die, this sad world.


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## UConnGSD (May 19, 2008)

Well said, Veeru! 

One thing I am wondering about the frequency of the blood tests -- how long does it take for blood to regenerate? Any inputs on this, other forum members? One vet advised me not to do blood tests more than once a month, unless there is a blood-related infection which needs to be monitored until it is cleared up. I remember when Wolfie had his e-coli infections, we were checking his urine about every couple of weeks. But the blood work was once a month.


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## Veeru (Sep 1, 2011)

Got the blood test done only today! 
Creatinine:3.74
Bun:50
Phosphorous:6.74 

I must admit we were a bit lax in our efforts. So gonna try again. The next blood test will be in next Monday.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Veeru said:


> Got the blood test done only today!
> Creatinine:3.74
> Bun:50
> Phosphorous:6.74
> ...


Can you post the normal ranges?

Also, with the phosphorous you can either use a conventional phosphate binder or there is some evidence that ground eggshells can lower phosphorous. I have been using barley grass with my cat and her phosphorous has gone down using that but that is just my experience--no hard evidence to back it up.  Barley grass is excellent for kidney function though.


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## UConnGSD (May 19, 2008)

I think the upper bound on phosphorus normal range is 6.8, although we are supposed to aim for no more than 6 with kidney failure. 

Is Veeru still getting the calcium acetate tablets? That ought to bind the phosphorus.


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## Veeru (Sep 1, 2011)

I am so sorry for my delayed replies. Been busy with other things. But thanks for keeping patience with me.

Todays Blood test report:

Creatinine:3.74
Bun:94(max 20)
Phosphorous:7.5(max6) 
I dont know what to say! But happy that at least creatinine hasnt increased.

Please help me out on these doubts:
1. Tell me how to prepare probiotics at home. To replace Azodyl. I heard the biotics in them are dead very soon without careful refrigeration.
2. I feel i have to feed him less so that the load on Kidneys comes down. Is it ok if i feed him only once in a day or will i be pushing him towards anemia?

I sometimes give him boiled egg with the shell on. Along with that he is getting calcium acetate tablets. Barley Grass!!! I will try now.


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## Veeru (Sep 1, 2011)

Side-effects of Azodyl? - Holistic Care For Pets - MedHelp

Veeru is having loose stools and running nose sometimes.


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## UConnGSD (May 19, 2008)

Regarding the homemade probiotics: My understanding is that homemade curd already has probiotics in them. Perhaps someone else can confirm this?

About the food though, it is not the quantity of food that stresses the kidneys but rather the type of food. In fact, if the dog is maintaining a healthy weight, I would not reduce his food -- that can cause real damage to the rest of the body. Veeru is still a growing pup. Saving the kidneys shouldn't come at the expense of the other organs in the body. What DOES help is feeding small meals throughout the day. 

For instance, Wolfie, who is at severe kidney failure right now, gets 3 meals. This is what he eats in a day, split into 3 meals: 6 ounces (170 grams) of pureed green veggies flavored generously with ghee, butter or coconut oil; 1 lb (450 grams) of cooked rice; 12 ounces (340 grams) of meat. 

My personal assessment is that Veeru's creatinine has plateaued. Which is actually not bad, considering that this is moderate stage kidney disease. You CAN control the phosphorus however. One thing to consider: yogurt or curd is unfortunately pretty high in phosphorus. I am wondering if that's what's affecting the phosphorus levels?? You might want to try cutting the curd quantity in half, increase the proportion of rice, also add a little bit more meat, give it a month and then repeat the bloodwork.


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## Veeru (Sep 1, 2011)

Creatinine: 10 !

Yesterday was his birthday. Life is cruel.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

Thanks for the update- sending my best wishes for continued recovery. Happy Birthday!


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I am so sorry to hear about the creatinine :hugs:

I thought that barley grass was rich in phosphorous? I'm not sure that I would add it in kidney disease with high phosphorous already, although I know that Ruth has had good luck with it. 

I am still hoping for that dramatic turnaround!


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## UConnGSD (May 19, 2008)

Oh no.... how on earth?? It was under 4 just a few weeks ago, right? I mean, is it at all possible for this to be a lab-related error? I cannot fathom how it can spike so high in such a short period of time... Lots of pats, scratches and kisses to the sweet little boy. Happy birthday Veeru! I am sure he fully appreciates the care you provide him :hugs:

Yes, Lisa, from what I have read on barley grass, it is kind of high in phosphorus and it did negatively affect Wolfie's phosphorus levels when I tried it. I am wondering if physiologically cats process phosphorus differently than dogs and that's why it helped with Ruth's Cleo?


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## Veeru (Sep 1, 2011)

Veeru is sleeping beside me right now. His both eyes are blind now. Due to high blood pressure. Even after peritoneal dialysis his creatinine levels have reached 12.48. BUN 64. I did not understand this. He had started vomiting heavily but has stopped it since yesterday night with wheat grass tonic(god send potion). he is not taking any other tablets.
Doctors say 90% of his kidney function is gone and sent him home. But he is still urinating enough. I will try till the last.

Why did this happen to veeru? He is flawless in every way. He is the heart of our family. Why did we get this punishment? I dont know where i went wrong. I am a sinner. You people kept our spirits high like angels. Veeru, become normal again please. This love starved person needs you very much.

Is there any way to lower his BP without inducing vomiting?


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## bianca (Mar 28, 2010)

I am so very sorry, this is just awful. I know somebody knowledgeable will come on soon but in the meantime... did the vet send you home with any BP medication. I know he is not taking pills but if you have to shove it down his throat?

My cat has kidney failure and her blood pressure was so high she is blind now too. But I 'think' if you can treat it relatively quickly there is some chance of reversing that before the retinas detach.

I am keeping you and Veeru in my thoughts and prayers :hugging:


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I can't answer your question about BP but I'm so sorry to hear that Veeru isn't doing well. 

Please remember though that his health problems have NOTHING to do with you. It isn't fair but it isn't your fault. You cannot cause such problems; Veeru is just unlucky, nothing more. 

I will be keeping you and Veeru in my thoughts.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

Beaming positive thoughts your way.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Veeru said:


> ...... I dont know where i went wrong. I am a sinner. You people kept our spirits high like angels. Veeru, become normal again please. This love starved person needs you very much.


:hugs: :hugs:

Please do not feel this way.

Veeru was sent to you so that he would know the love that you have given him. I'm sorry that it has been for such a short time, it's so unfair. This is not a punishment, and you in no way caused this.

Anything that you can give that dilates the blood vessels (vasodilation) may lower the blood pressure. I can't think of anything off the top of my head that would be appropriate, but will think on hit some more.


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## southernfiction (Oct 5, 2011)

*BP*

As for lowering blood pressure a friend of mine uses Hawthorn berries. Wouldn't know if they're appropriate for canines.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

Thinking of you guys today and beaming positive thoughts.


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## Veeru (Sep 1, 2011)

_VEERU_
17-October-2010 to 30-October-2011

'Veeru' means 'The courageous'. True to his name he did not show fear on his face. Till the last he just sat down enduring the pain. In the last moment, even though fully weak, he sprang up and stood. My mom shouted for everybody to come. She uttered the words 'Anna will come' meaning 'brother will come' and he turned back towards the door expecting me. By the time we rushed in he had collapsed on my mom's thighs and breathing heavily. From then on it was just few more seconds before he left. It was 12:08 pm today, and i was on the porch talking to the doc on phone about putting him down.

Right now i am not in a situation to say much but i will tell this. He was like a 'light at the end of the tunnel' in my emotional life. Now that he is gone, my mind cant think of the future without him. My be i will forget the grief sometime soon, and think of all this as bad luck, But his touch, his looks, his eyes, his bark/voice, will always be remembered. His whistle to call me or my mom will be missed the most. Its is hard to describe here, but if you had lived with him and looked into his eyes you would know what he wanted to say. Very expressive face. Just half an hour before the end, we gave him his favourite....a car ride...in his personal seat, just beside the driver. Inspite of being weak, he stood in the small seat. I could see that he was eager to ride, even in the last moments. I will be preserving that car for years to come. It is not my car, it is veeru's car.

My dad took us out to a restaurant just now, to change the mood and get something to fill our empty stomachs. When we came back, i was expecting his 'Whistle' and his face poking out of the window. But no, he wasnt there. Tears rolled down my eyes. Why should there be such injustice in life? Why such pain for such a small baby? I am asking the question again and again and pressing my ears to hear an answer. But zilch. Perhaps, life is just a series of random events. No god, no plan no such dumb ****. My family even made a pilgrimage to our 'Home god' after 30 years just for Veeru, but no use. Some of the people around me thought we were crazy, but trust me we had never seen just amazing behaviour and we wanted it to last for more time. That is why, when he came to our home all we wanted was a guard dog, but he soon became my brother. Sorry if all this is crazily emotional but we had high hopes.

Before i go i want to thank all those who helped me here on this forum, especially UconnGSD and LisaT.


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## UConnGSD (May 19, 2008)

:teary: I am so so sorry for your loss. You have to take comfort in the following:

1) Veeru was much loved and cared for. If he had been in the care of many other people, they might have given up on him a long time ago and not known the wonderful soul that he is. I say "is", because even though you don't see him, he is there and he will be with you for as long as you want. As crazy as this sounds, for several days after our childhood dog died, both my mother and one of our maids heard our dog around the house. I too have felt his presence throughout my life, years after he had passed.

2) Veeru was brought in your life for a reason. Perhaps he has changed the way you view life or people or most importantly, yourself and the way you are with others. His earthly life had a profound purpose. I firmly believe in this -- our dogs can teach us a great many lessons that no human being can teach. There are many positive changes that we have made in our lives that we can attribute directly to the dogs we have had over the years. These changes range from our view on life to diet to health to the way we deal with people. Isn't that a great legacy of the lives of these beings!

3) You did good with Veeru. He was blessed to have had you as his companion. :hugs:

It was my privilege to have known Veeru through you.


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

I am so very sorry for your loss.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

I'm so very sorry you lost Veeru. I've rarely seen anyone do more and try anything to save their dog's life, you truly struggled together. I hope one day another lucky dog will become part of your family and feel the love you shared with Veeru


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

:teary:

I am so very sorry that there were no miracles for Veeru. I am very glad that he had that last car ride with you.

I don't think I can add to the wise words of UConn's, and I agree with them completely. I will say that I do not believe that you were given Veeru only to lose him - I see no meaning in the loss, only unfairness, genetics, etc.. 

I do believe that you and he found your way together and were meant to be together though. And each one of these precious beings do teach us, and often change our lives forever. We honor them by respecting the lessons that they leave us.

I don't know if they are available there, but there are two Bach remedies - Star of Bethlehem for grief, and Pine for guilt. You can can get a small dropper bottle, put some purified water in it, and put 5 drops of each in it. Throughout the day, take 4 drops. It will help. UConnGSD told me about that when my girl passed last year.

Please be kind to yourself, Veeru lived with love, and left this world surrounded in love, and he will always be with you :hugs:


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I am very sorry that you lost Veeru. I understand the pain you're going through right now and I hope that as the pain fades you will be able to take comfort in the memories of the wonderful times you shared. 

Take good care.


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## Miss Molly May (Feb 19, 2010)

I am so sorry for your loss!! You did everything possible for him!
My heart goes out to you and your family


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## BahCan (May 29, 2010)

So very sorry for your loss of Veeru, it is obvious the love you had for him. Know that you did everything you could do to save his life. One day the pain will start to ease and you will have the wonderful memories of him which will bring joy to your heart again.

*Veeru*
*Everyday you were loved*
*Everyday you will be missed*
*Rest in peace my friend*
*Until your family meets you again*

*RIP*


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I am so very sorry for your loss. I know how you feel, I lost dogs myself after a battle that lasted several months. The battle brought us closer and taught me so much. I sometimes feel that God wants the best to be with him. Somehow these dogs I lost sent me a sign, another dog that was somehow related, to rescue. I found comfort in that.
Veeru is, a shining star and he is watching over you.
Run free Veeru...


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## Veeru (Sep 1, 2011)

Thanks all for your condolences.
Veeru is a symbol of the purest and flawless Love.
I am starting out on a new business and Veeru will be my logo. I will live with him all my life.


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## bianca (Mar 28, 2010)

I am so very, very sorry :hugs:

Run free sweet boy.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I have my BoBo's and Zoebel's collars around the headrest of my car. They loved to travel and they go with me wherever I go.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Another so sorry for your loss. I know the pain. Every year when the leaves fall from the Black Walnut trees (the day he died, every single leaf fell of of that tree) I think of Oscar who left us with kidney failure also at 1 year old years ago. I wish I had something to offer you to help but had not.

Veeru will live on in your memories.


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## Veeru (Sep 1, 2011)

Some of his photos....

VEERU | Facebook


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I am so very sorry...what a beautiful soul he was...


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## bianca (Mar 28, 2010)

Oh such a darling :hugs:


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## UConnGSD (May 19, 2008)

Veeru was gorgeous, inside and out!


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