# correct drives in Guarding!



## coloradojim (Jul 26, 2011)

one of the most informative things I have seen regarding guarding!!!!


----------



## coloradojim (Jul 26, 2011)

*did not work correctly*

sorry folks!!!!! did now work but this is pretty cool also!!!!

‪Obedience For Bites: Schutzhund Dog Training‬‏ - YouTube


----------



## clearcreekranch (Mar 18, 2010)

Cool


----------



## Two (Jul 18, 2011)

Wow that's a good video. How long did it take for your dog to learn to heel that well? He is always looking at you. Very interested as I would like something like this out of my future dog.

Thanks


----------



## coloradojim (Jul 26, 2011)

that is Jason Lake and honestly not sure got that from my buddys fan page who in my opinion is one of the premier trainers in the us...He and his wife are so passionate about the sport. He titled his first dog in 1978. Has titled/been the trainer for over 450 dogs. His club is High Plains Schutzhund in the country outside of Denver...His wife also happens to be one of 16 certified judges in the US.....Is pretty cool going to watch the trials as the last one I went to a judge flew in from Germany. They also have a sister club in Germany...Heck as you can tell I really respect him and I gain nothing from it as you can see there are no links which pay me! LOL....However if you like what you see "like" him on facebook at top schutzhund training, am sure he would appreciate that!!!!!


----------



## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Coloradjim,

Welcome to the forum. Why don't you post an intro in the Welcome section and tells us about yourself and your GSD(s).


----------



## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

What's going on in that video has nothing to do with protection. In fact I think it's the opposite of protection. They are teaching the dog to regard the helper has nothing more than a big toy. It's a total sublimation of what a GSD should be. It makes me a little sad.


----------



## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

To me, that was a nice obedience session where the dog was rewarded with a bite.


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Anyone wanna share their opinion (video) of a perfect B&H with correct drives?


----------



## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

For a BH wouldn't the ideal drive simply be pack drive? Biddable. I think many dogs navigate through a BH largely in prey drive.


----------



## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Not BH, B&H (Bark & Hold)


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Fast said:


> What's going on in that video has nothing to do with protection. In fact I think it's the opposite of protection. They are teaching the dog to regard the helper has nothing more than a big toy. It's a total sublimation of what a GSD should be. It makes me a little sad.


I'm inclined to agree. While I like the heeling, the total focus under distraction, I'm not sure I'd be OK using *that* type of distraction to proof my dog's heel. I value obedience, maybe even more so than a lot of people (I start my puppies day one and train in multiple venues) but as far as protection I also value my dog's ability to make a decision on his own. I'm not sure I'd be OK with the message it sends to my dog that he should heel while someone is coming up on us with a whip. That's not to bash the dog and handler in the video, it's just that this type of proofing is not a priority for me. Also I don't like the heads-up heeling in the protection phase. I think the dog should be biddable to the handler without losing sight of the helper.


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I'm inclined to agree. While I like the heeling, the total focus under distraction, I'm not sure I'd be OK using *that* type of distraction to proof my dog's heel. I value obedience, maybe even more so than a lot of people (I start my puppies day one and train in multiple venues) but as far as protection I also value my dog's ability to make a decision on his own. I'm not sure I'd be OK with the message it sends to my dog that he should heel while someone is coming up on us with a whip. That's not to bash the dog and handler in the video, it's just that this type of proofing is not a priority for me. Also I don't like the heads-up heeling in the protection phase. I think the dog should be biddable to the handler without losing sight of the helper.


So, to say that another way, while you want a nice attentive heel during obedience you are ok with the dog being in the heeling position but attentive on the threat rather than watching you... b/c you feel it is more appropriate in this case for the dog to be mindful of your commands and under your control, but attentive to the threat so that he can make the decision to bite when it is appropriate (i.e., when the helper chargers, posturing and stick high?). For example, its ok if the dog is glancing at you but primarily focused on the helper during bite obedience? Have I accurately described what you meant?


----------



## mareg (Mar 10, 2011)

probably better off going to the wally world parking lot and doing obedience for distractions. But, if they were having fun and really dont care if the dog is serious...no harm done.

Who knows, that dog may be one serious *******....so this type of thing may not effect his real world protection at all.


----------



## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

I HATE watching a B+H when the dog is jumping in the blind with all 4 legs off the ground. Boing WOOF Sproing WOOF. He is barking in the decoys face just jumping there. If my dog did that, I think I would honestly ask the decoy to hoof him mid jump... (not enough to hurt the dog. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to hurt the dog. But I would appreciate the dog giving the decoy a little respect...so the decoy setting him off balance would not be a bad thing, in my mindset.)


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

mareg said:


> probably better off going to the wally world parking lot and doing obedience for distractions. But, if they were having fun and really dont care if the dog is serious...no harm done.
> 
> Who knows, that dog may be one serious *******....so this type of thing may not effect his real world protection at all.


At my local wally world that might cause a panic and stampede... the folks that frequent there seem to have some personal experience with working shepherds


----------



## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

‪VitGlisnik3's Channel‬‏ - YouTube

Here is an example, imo, that shows a very strong bark and hold, and focused obedience during bitework. Notice though that when the helper is moving, the dog is allowed/expected to focus on the helper.


----------



## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

OP- Here is the video in your initial post (I actually missed it until just now)


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

hunterisgreat said:


> So, to say that another way, while you want a nice attentive heel during obedience you are ok with the dog being in the heeling position but attentive on the threat rather than watching you... b/c you feel it is more appropriate in this case for the dog to be mindful of your commands and under your control, but attentive to the threat so that he can make the decision to bite when it is appropriate (i.e., when the helper chargers, posturing and stick high?). For example, its ok if the dog is glancing at you but primarily focused on the helper during bite obedience? Have I accurately described what you meant?


Yes. IMO good, correct, attentive heeling does not have to mean head-in-the-armpit prancing during the protection phase. I wasn't really sure how I felt about this until I saw two dogs nearly miss the attack b/c of how they were heeling during the back transport. This is not to say that I do not think I should be able to call my dog back to heel or do obedience during protection, only that I personally would not proof heeling by having a helper pestering us with a whip from behind.

Like mareg said, I'm not saying what they did was bad or the dog is not serious. All I'm saying is I personally didn't like it all that much and do not find it useful. The dog looks like it can already heel just fine under a lot of distraction.

Just a training/style preference, I guess.


----------



## coloradojim (Jul 26, 2011)

coloradojim said:


> that is Jason Lake and honestly not sure got that from my buddys fan page who in my opinion is one of the premier trainers in the us...He and his wife are so passionate about the sport. He titled his first dog in 1978. Has titled/been the trainer for over 450 dogs. His club is High Plains Schutzhund in the country outside of Denver...His wife also happens to be one of 16 certified judges in the US.....Is pretty cool going to watch the trials as the last one I went to a judge flew in from Germany. They also have a sister club in Germany...Heck as you can tell I really respect him and I gain nothing from it as you can see there are no links which pay me! LOL....However if you like what you see "like" him on facebook at top schutzhund training, am sure he would appreciate that!!!!!





Liesje said:


> Yes. IMO good, correct, attentive heeling does not have to mean head-in-the-armpit prancing during the protection phase. I wasn't really sure how I felt about this until I saw two dogs nearly miss the attack b/c of how they were heeling during the back transport. This is not to say that I do not think I should be able to call my dog back to heel or do obedience during protection, only that I personally would not proof heeling by having a helper pestering us with a whip from behind.
> 
> Like mareg said, I'm not saying what they did was bad or the dog is not serious. All I'm saying is I personally didn't like it all that much and do not find it useful. The dog looks like it can already heel just fine under a lot of distraction.
> 
> Just a training/style preference, I guess.


Just look at video on post18...gagsd was kind enough to post video. The video everyoneposting about one was just a video I liked.....the video on post 18 is great....if peoplefault it they do not know what they are talking about....crackem is right there is so much crap online. Why I posted mark....top shelf trainer and even better person if that is possible. His club has titled more dogs than this entire board combined.


----------



## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

I think when it comes to heeling in protection, it really depends on how much control you have on the dog (and to some extent, what kind of dog you have). There are definite disadvantages in asking for heads up heeling in transport ... but again sometimes you don't have a choice.


----------



## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

where is there heeling in this video?


----------



## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Castlemaid said:


> Not BH, B&H (Bark & Hold)


Thank you!!:blush:


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Anne Marie's B&H video is excellent. Wish a few judges would watch it. As for the first video with the heeling, I tend to agree with those who dislike that approach to protection work, and the question of who the dog should be looking at when there is a helper on the field can be quite a stimulating debate for another thread. But to each his own. There are many roads to Rome and indeed different dogs need to be trained differently.

But geeze, Jim, what is with the attitude? No one is questioning Mark or Anne Marie as people or trainers. They're fantastic as both but IMO no one, no matter who, should be elevated to godhood status nor is it appropriate to go around insulting this board and it's members telling them they don't know anything and don't have any experience. All in your first month of membership and with a whopping 13 posts? Maybe stick around a bit and get to know some people before you presume to judge everyone and what they know or have done, and post something about yourself so we can get to know who you are rather than just posting videos and deifying certain people and demonizing everyone else, none of whom you even know?


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Chris Wild said:


> Anne Marie's B&H video is excellent. Wish a few judges would watch it. As for the first video with the heeling, I tend to agree with those who dislike that approach to protection work, and the question of who the dog should be looking at when there is a helper on the field can be quite a stimulating debate for another thread. But to each his own. There are many roads to Rome and indeed different dogs need to be trained differently.
> 
> But geeze, Jim, what is with the attitude? No one is questioning Mark or Anne Marie as people or trainers. They're fantastic as both but IMO no one, no matter who, should be elevated to godhood status nor is it appropriate to go around insulting this board and it's members telling them they don't know anything and don't have any experience. All in your first month of membership and with a whopping 13 posts? Maybe stick around a bit and get to know some people before you presume to judge everyone and what they know or have done, and post something about yourself so we can get to know who you are rather than just posting videos and deifying certain people and demonizing everyone else, none of whom you even know?


Regarding the heeling focus in a trial, how does watching, or not watch the helper or handler effect scoring? Or is it at the judges discretion?


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Judge's discretion. Some don't mind it, some don't like it and will take points and comment negatively about it in the critique. The other thing people need to be aware of is the other things it can effect that can also lead to a point loss. The dog watching the helper might forge on the transport and to lose points for that. Maybe he wouldn't forge if watching the handler. The dog watching the handler might miss the attack and fail to engage properly or get a good bite, and lose points for that. He wouldn't miss it if he were watching the helper. It's a balancing act.


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Chris Wild said:


> Judge's discretion. Some don't mind it, some don't like it and will take points and comment negatively about it in the critique. The other thing people need to be aware of is the other things it can effect that can also lead to a point loss. The dog watching the helper might forge on the transport and to lose points for that. Maybe he wouldn't forge if watching the handler. The dog watching the handler might miss the attack and fail to engage properly or get a good bite, and lose points for that. He wouldn't miss it if he were watching the helper. It's a balancing act.


Would it be fair to say, that what should be taught might be dependent on the individual dog? For a bad forger maybe teach to watch the handler? For a dog with some engagement hesitation or weaker bite watch the helper? Sort of a, address the most likely mistake for that particular dog?


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Yes that but it also depends on the goals, how the trainer sees the work. I won't ever train my dogs to do the prancy face/armpit-focused heel in protection because I just plain don't like it. Other people love it. Doesn't matter to me one way or the other. Doing it that way doesn't fit with how I view protection work and how I train so it serves no purpose for me. If I have a control issue or a dog that forges, yes it could help but I personally would choose to address that in a different way. It works for a lot of other people and it's no skin off my back.


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Yes that but it also depends on the goals, how the trainer sees the work. I won't ever train my dogs to do the prancy face/armpit-focused heel in protection because I just plain don't like it. Other people love it. Doesn't matter to me one way or the other. Doing it that way doesn't fit with how I view protection work and how I train so it serves no purpose for me. If I have a control issue or a dog that forges, yes it could help but I personally would choose to address that in a different way. It works for a lot of other people and it's no skin off my back.


I ask b/c I'm pretty happy with our obedience heel, but compared to obedience, the heel during protection is... challenging. I don't see myself getting the same heel without some major effort. Personally, I'd rather keep them intense on the helper than lower the actual protection performance severing the connection out there demanding a perfect heel.


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

It definitely depends on the dog. And the handler and the training. The ideal, perfect performance would be a dog in correct heel position, but watching the helper. That is easier said than done with some dogs, so often one needs to decide on which less than ideal manner will be used with that dog in order to maximize performance and minimize point loss and that will depend a lot on the dog and also a lot on the training and how the dog views protection as a result of that training. Or one may decide that their own philosophy on protection and what is correct dictates how they will train the dog, and if that means the occasional point loss then so be it.


----------



## coloradojim (Jul 26, 2011)

Chris Wild said:


> Anne Marie's B&H video is excellent. Wish a few judges would watch it. As for the first video with the heeling, I tend to agree with those who dislike that approach to protection work, and the question of who the dog should be looking at when there is a helper on the field can be quite a stimulating debate for another thread. But to each his own. There are many roads to Rome and indeed different dogs need to be trained differently.
> 
> But geeze, Jim, what is with the attitude? No one is questioning Mark or Anne Marie as people or trainers. They're fantastic as both but IMO no one, no matter who, should be elevated to godhood status nor is it appropriate to go around insulting this board and it's members telling them they don't know anything and don't have any experience. All in your first month of membership and with a whopping 13 posts? Maybe stick around a bit and get to know some people before you presume to judge everyone and what they know or have done, and post something about yourself so we can get to know who you are rather than just posting videos and deifying certain people and demonizing everyone else, none of whom you even know?


Not at all what I was trying to do if it came across that way I apologize profusely. Just some of the comments above in m opinion where saying this or that was wrong. was just trying to post a cool video I thought. Heck I have gotten a handful of private messages agreeing with it.....So sorry if I offended anyone at all particularly yourself.........The problem with the dog world is just like my wife says in the horseworld, everyone is an expert and bash everyone else even if it is someone who is at the top of their game, especially in this day and age of the internet with everyone being an expert.

Again I apologize to anyone if I offended them, not at all what I was trying to accomplish..


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Not offended, more just left scratching my head. It was the comment in the other thread about how so and so had "titled more dogs than everyone on this board combined" that really seemed presumptuous and demeaning to the board and left me thinking there was some sort of ax to grind with the members. Glad to hear that wasn't the case and just a miscommunication.


----------



## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

i don't care if the dog looks at the handler or the helper. It's only one aspect, that's it, ONE. while it can be telling in the presence of many other things, it might also mean nothing. 

I like to see proper aggression in the blind too, but dangit, some of these dogs have seen it a thousand times, and no matter how many times you kick their ass with a dead helper in the blind, sometimes they just don't get all threatened in there. So a prey bark is not the end of the world either.

There's a hundred things to look at and all must be taken into account. a moment doesn't define the test.


----------



## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

oh man, I just went back and read thru this again to find this heeling video everybody was talking about about. Seriously? This is what has everyone so excited? That dog knows what he's doing. It's obedience for bites. It isn't protection work, he doesn't even see that guy as a helper, as he shouldn't. There's no protection in that at all, and the dog knows, and it's being trained like that. 
Everybody in that video is on the same page, the dog, the handler and the guy holding the pillow.

What's the big deal? The dog is totally clear as to what's going one, more so than the humans I guess watching I guess. ever see him do protection? he knows who to look at and when.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

hunterisgreat said:


> I ask b/c I'm pretty happy with our obedience heel, but compared to obedience, the heel during protection is... challenging. I don't see myself getting the same heel without some major effort. Personally, I'd rather keep them intense on the helper than lower the actual protection performance severing the connection out there demanding a perfect heel.


Some people actually have more control doing the heads up heeling (like Jason was getting at earlier). Sort of like many people can say "Fuss!" and get their dog to heel off the field whereas if they snapped the leash on and just walked off the dog might drag them.


----------



## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

You want them "intense on the helper" but not TOO intense. And sometimes you have a dog where it's just better that the dog NOT stare uninterrupted at the helper for 20-30 seconds ...


----------



## mssandslinger (Sep 21, 2010)

thats cool!!!! i wanna work on my dogs attention to me like that!


----------



## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

crackem said:


> oh man, I just went back and read thru this again to find this heeling video everybody was talking about about. Seriously? This is what has everyone so excited? That dog knows what he's doing. It's obedience for bites. It isn't protection work, he doesn't even see that guy as a helper, as he shouldn't. There's no protection in that at all, and the dog knows, and it's being trained like that.
> Everybody in that video is on the same page, the dog, the handler and the guy holding the pillow.
> 
> What's the big deal? The dog is totally clear as to what's going one, more so than the humans I guess watching I guess. ever see him do protection? he knows who to look at and when.


If the dog dosen't see this training as protection, then why use a helper? Why not put a toy on the field and send the dog to that?


----------



## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

why should the dog see it as protection? there was no aggression or threat from anyone, the dog wasn't "turned on" to aggress at a stationary or non-threatening person, it was just obedience for a bite on the pillow.

They could have put a toy on the field, but just as some dogs like balls, and some get more juiced for a thrown ball and some get amped for a tug, and others more amped for a bigger tug, some dogs will perform a bit better biting a pillow with a person. 

In the end does it really matter? Dogs know what they're doing. It's not hard to differentiate obedience bites from "protection" and dogs do just fine with it. Plenty of dogs that have and will bite for real are really clear when it's obedience bites or not. and besides, when I tell the dog to look at me, it has to look at me helper or not. If it wants to bite and tell it no, it can't, no matter how much it wants to. If a guy is running towards or away and I call them back, they have to come back.

the video clearly showed someone providing distraction, not threat and it was obvious to the dog what was happening.


----------



## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

crackem said:


> They could have put a toy on the field, but just as some dogs like balls, and some get more juiced for a thrown ball and some get amped for a tug, and others more amped for a bigger tug, some dogs will perform a bit better biting a pillow with a person.


Why would a dog perform better if it bites a pillow being held by a person?


----------



## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

The video is obviously an effort to make control in "c" phase. Most people I know use some variation of this exercise to make control. As some have stated it is not advantages for the dog to heel like this in some portions of the routine, actually three times in the routine (two sides, and back transport). In other portions of the routine it is advantages to have this heeling (I always think that if you have a dog's eyes then you have his mind). Of course in those three portions the command is "transport" as oppossed to "fuss". "Fuss" is always to the handler and "transport" is always to the helper.


----------



## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

Fast said:


> Why would a dog perform better if it bites a pillow being held by a person?


 why would a dog like the ball in my hand and not the one laying dead on the ground? why would a dog like the ball I throw away, better than the one I hold in my hand?

maybe the dog doesn't like any of those choices (though I highly doubt it, looks like he'd like them all in the video), but these two like to train together so they do it. It ooesn't matter. The dog sees the exercise and obedience for bites as he should. Someone is providing distraction, not threat and dogs can discern the difference very well.


----------



## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

crackem said:


> why would a dog like the ball in my hand and not the one laying dead on the ground? why would a dog like the ball I throw away, better than the one I hold in my hand?


Ok now your just obfuscating and being disingenuous. Even the most new of the newbies knows the answer, as do you. The answer is ...Because dogs tend to be at their highest state of drive when they are doing protection. And they are using that high drive state to make obedience. There is no way in **** to get around that simple fact. The dog does see this as protection.




> The dog sees the exercise and obedience for bites as he should.


I know he does and that's a shame, IMO.

One of the points of this type of training is to trick the dog to believe that that during a trial he will get a bite for his obedience. And this is one of my problems with this style of training. I have never met a dog that could carry aggression throughout c-phase that was trained like this. Dogs can't go from, "I'll be good and go take the sleeve from my good buddy Mr. Pez Helper" to "I want to hurt and dominate that ******* over there" and maintain aggression. They stop viewing the helper in the proper context.


----------

