# When you think you found everything in a puppy...but the color



## brandydan (May 7, 2015)

Hi - FIRST, please note that I know that color should be the last thing one thinks about when picking a puppy, no matter the breed or mix. This is just a 'why?' question, so please, don't yell...

We have been searching pretty much nationwide for the right GSD for us. While we have been owned by a collection of different mixes as well as purebreds throughout our lives, this will be our first GSD. As I noted in my intro post, it's just the two of us, a glaring of 5 cats (which IMHO, is really what a group/clowder of cats do when you want them to do something), and a sheltie and scottie who are pretty much my shaggy shadows. We lost our Golden Retriever almost 2 years ago. 

We would love to be able to add a GSD to our horde, but need to be sure that the temperment is on the 'soft' side (sorry, still haven't figured out the terminology) because of our pets, and also because my husband is gone out to sea for months at a time; he is concerned about how quickly the puppy will accept him as co-Alpha to me when he comes home, only to head out again every 4 months.

We've opted that we would love to be able to add into our family a male, long coat, limited AKC (because I would love to be able to go through the CGC and further route, perhaps obedience and/or rally). I've been in contact through the web with several GSD breeders that have long coat males available. Every single one has been patient in responding and educating me as to any testing the parents have, the temperments of the parents, even if they've been shown (this is not a big deal for us but the health and temperment is). I guess (<newbie here) that we are therefore looking into show lines versus working lines?

I know this is a shallow thing (because it irritates even me), is that we are aiming for a sable, black sable if possible. Is this a particular color that is not really commonly found in show lines? I've found breeders with beautiful solid black (my second choice), and darker red/black and tan/black. I asked about the colors of the puppies at the end of long conversations with them about the parents of the puppies, their health/temperment/history of their kennels, etc. I used to breed and show Maine **** cats, and we purchased our dogs from breeders, so I (hope) asked pretty much the same questions I would ask when I got our other guys.

Again, the color will NOT be a dealbreaker, but I was just wondering how common would either a darker sable or a solid black tend to show up?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Black sables are not showlines. At all. I've seen some light sables in ASL. Some blacks in ASL. But you are not going to find black sables in either ASL or WGSL. In order for a sable to be born, one of the parents has to be sable. It's a dominant gene. In order for blacks, both parents need to carry the black gene. It's a recessive gene.


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## CountryGirl01 (Dec 10, 2014)

This site has sable long-coat gsd's. Puppy For Sale - Rehoboth Long Coat German Shepherd Dogs

The odds of ever finding a *black* sable gsd though are pretty much nonexistent. 

I understand how color matters, it does a bit. But you should really put that aside; especially since you seek a dog compatible with your household. A dog with a temperament to suit your family should seriously be at the top of the list of attributes you wish to find in this gsd.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

CountryGirl01 said:


> This site has sable long-coat gsd's. Puppy For Sale - Rehoboth*Long Coat German Shepherd Dogs


This is everything you should avoid in a breeder. 

As Jax said, pay attention to the genetics and pedigrees of potential pairings, but be willing to make concessions on either the lines or the color (preferably the color, as temperament is most important).


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Black sable is not ever found in showlines. There are ASL and WGSL sables, yes, but not black sables. True black sables aren't common even among working lines. Have you spoken with Huerta Hof in Illinois? They have some working line and show/work cross litters producing very dark sable dogs, some long coat.


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

LoveEcho said:


> This is everything you should avoid in a breeder.
> 
> As Jax said, pay attention to the genetics and pedigrees of potential pairings, but be willing to make concessions on either the lines or the color (preferably the color, as temperament is most important).


Hey Echo, why do you say this is everything you should avoid? I'm looking into getting a pup (years down the road) and would like as much info as possible on what I SHOULD be looking for, and what I should be avoiding. To someone like me, the only concerns I see are that they are not to breed standard, and she has a large amount that she swaps out to breed while they are being "fostered." Is there anything else that someone with lack of knowledge like myself should be on the lookout for?


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## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

What color would you consider this ?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

plain old richly pigmented sable in nice condition


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

jschrest said:


> Hey Echo, why do you say this is everything you should avoid? I'm looking into getting a pup (years down the road) and would like as much info as possible on what I SHOULD be looking for, and what I should be avoiding. To someone like me, the only concerns I see are that they are not to breed standard, and she has a large amount that she swaps out to breed while they are being "fostered." Is there anything else that someone with lack of knowledge like myself should be on the lookout for?


They're breeding FOR coats, which means they're not selecting breeding pairs based on anything other than who will produce coats.. all other factors that are much more important (health, temperament, conformation) take a back seat. They heavily emphasize size and coat length, which are really the last things that should be emphasized. The emphasis on "level backs and large bone structure" are fancy buzzwords for oversized dogs with shady conformation. The two always seem to go hand in hand, because very frequently the "level back large boned dog" is actually swaybacked with poor conformation. If you're a new buyer, don't be drawn in by the "level back" marketing gimmick- roach backs and extreme angulation actually aren't as common as you think and most people who are inexperienced see a picture of a stacked dog and assume that that is how the dog is actually built. 


Most importantly...
They don't appear to health test their dogs in any capacity. They also don't appear to title their dogs in any capacity. Health testing is critical for obvious reasons, especially hip/elbow scores, but titling and working the dog in some venue means that they've had a third party evaluation of the dog's temperament and drive. Someone who doesn't work their dogs likely has absolutely no idea what "medium drive" actually means. 

They don't appear to put any thought into breeding pairings based on complementary pedigrees and traits- it's just throwing two dogs together based on whoever will produce the biggest dogs with the longest coats.


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

Thanks Echo, that was very informative!


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

LoveEcho said:


> They're breeding FOR coats, which means they're not selecting breeding pairs based on anything other than who will produce coats.. all other factors that are much more important (health, temperament, conformation) take a back seat. They heavily emphasize size and coat length, which are really the last things that should be emphasized. The emphasis on "level backs and large bone structure" are fancy buzzwords for oversized dogs with shady conformation. The two always seem to go hand in hand, because very frequently the "level back large boned dog" is actually swaybacked with poor conformation. If you're a new buyer, don't be drawn in by the "level back" marketing gimmick- roach backs and extreme angulation actually aren't as common as you think and most people who are inexperienced see a picture of a stacked dog and assume that that is how the dog is actually built.
> 
> 
> Most importantly...
> ...


Right on. Just a fuzzy looking website with tons of cute kids and puppies but without any information about health and temperament. Dogs look overweight and out of shape.


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## brandydan (May 7, 2015)

You guys are great! Lots of more information for me. I had looked at that website months ago, and while I thought those puppies (like every puppy ever born) look adorable, the website confused me, and I couldn't find any health testing, though maybe if I had contacted them I would have received information.


The breeders that I am in contact have long coats in the same litters as stock (that's the right term?). They do test their breeding pairs prior to accepting them into their breeding and I've been able to 'stalk' puppies from their breedings to people who post pictures on FB so I can contact them and ask them about the temperments of their puppies. So far, so good. A few AKC STAR puppies, several CGCs, even therapy-type dogs. 


As for black sable, I guess I had that term wrong as well. Prior to looking at long coat GSDs, hubs and I had focused on Shilohs, mostly for the temperments and because pretty much every single 'official' breeder from both sides of their registries list all the testing they do. Almost all the Shilohs that we liked were the gray sables, and sometimes the darker hues we read as black sables. 


In a way, looking back, hubs was and is really hot on having a pet that looks like a wolf. Though this could backfire since we're making plans to move back to the New England area where both wolves and coyotes are rampant...


I wasn't aware of the recessive gene for solid black, nor that the sable is dominant (something new I learned today). I'm going to keep looking, ask a few more questions of the breeders, see if they can even videotape the puppies that they do have right now, see if the breeders themselves can determine which puppy would be a better fit for a potential owner, which is ultimately what I would like as well, along with a healthy, confident, stable puppy.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Once you live with a dog you won't see its color anymore, just your awesome dog. 
I tested that one time when a foster dog home. There were a bunch of dogs that were going to be put down. My daughter and I started looking for temperament while ignoring looks. I wanted this to be lesson for both of us. We took home an Aussie mix with ugly chocolate colored faded shaggy hair, a brown nose (something I never have liked) a docked tail (hate the look of docked tails) and cow hocked. And you guessed it: she was just a nice family dog , lost that shaggy hair and found a great home. Once she lived with us that brown nose and the docked tail never bothered me and we loved our Java.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

The sable gene *is* the dominant color, if I'm not mistaken.

Black sable is a sable that is so dark he appears black unless you are petting the fur backwards and can see the sable ticking.

This is a sable West German Show Line, but not a black sable:


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## brandydan (May 7, 2015)

I love that coloring, but to the still-untrained-eyes<this is me, my first reaction was a 'traditional' GSD coloring...aw, the heck with sable this and that and blanket-vs-saddle...I have breeders to call and talk with!!!!!yay!!!


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## astrovan2487 (May 29, 2014)

If you are still set on getting a solid black long coat this breeder has one but it's a female
Misty Ridge Puppies, Breeding, German Shepherds For Sale
Most of her breeding dogs aren't titled but they are health tested. I've been looking for puppies also and really don't see many long coat solid blacks.


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## weberhaus (Jan 2, 2008)

Also to point out that dogs are not reg as black sable or light sable its just reg as Sable. Iwan is refered to as a black sable but papers say just sable.


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## brandydan (May 7, 2015)

astrovan2487 said:


> If you are still set on getting a solid black long coat this breeder has one but it's a female
> Misty Ridge Puppies, Breeding, German Shepherds For Sale
> Most of her breeding dogs aren't titled but they are health tested. I've been looking for puppies also and really don't see many long coat solid blacks.


I HAD to follow the link to the cutest living teddy bear ever...oy, now I'm thinking about getting a girl...you guys!!!! giving me way too much help *smiling as I write this.:hug:

And Malinda, I tried sending you a PM, but I have to wait until I have enough posts...


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

weberhaus said:


> Also to point out that dogs are not reg as black sable or light sable its just reg as Sable. Iwan is refered to as a black sable but papers say just sable.


Drooling over Iwan...

He is absolutely gorgeous!


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## Keisha1 (Aug 28, 2013)

Are you talking black sable or dark sable? Here are a couple dark sable puppies from a breeder I know.


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## Persinette (Jan 31, 2015)

Weberhaus throws some dark and black sable long coats from time to time with her pairings. They are working line, but in my conversations with Malinda she was very open about her dogs and suiting temperament with the right family. Some working line dogs are born with softer temperaments and not enough drive for competitive sport. She really knows her dogs, their lines, and does health testing. She also works and titles her dogs. I believe her next planned litter is listed as having possible long coats, not sure the coloration. Her pairings have also thrown blacks. She breeds Czech and DDR so dark pigmentation mostly.

Home

There aren't many examples on the website, but if you look at the Facebook and research the photos of pups from the pairings through the registry, you will see dark sable long coats. A board member here has one I believe?

*Edit: As a quick side note, while we all prioritize health temperament, etc. over color (or should imo) I also don't think it's wrong to have a color preference! I certainly do! haha. You might have to wait longer to find the right pup, but color can have meaning or importance to us. If it is important to you, just be willing to be patient.


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## brandydan (May 7, 2015)

Persinette said:


> Weberhaus throws some dark and black sable long coats from time to time with her pairings. They are working line, but in my conversations with Malinda she was very open about her dogs and suiting temperament with the right family. Some working line dogs are born with softer temperaments and not enough drive for competitive sport. She really knows her dogs, their lines, and does health testing. She also works and titles her dogs. I believe her next planned litter is listed as having possible long coats, not sure the coloration. Her pairings have also thrown blacks. She breeds Czech and DDR so dark pigmentation mostly.
> 
> Home
> 
> ...


 
Thanks. I appreciate the assistance. I had found two separate breeders which had everything on my list (health, tests, temperament, etc), but the colors were...my husband, especially, is set on a sable (we first were looking at Shilohs, and most have the lighter sable coloring). We came thisclose to choosing either breeder, but opted to wait until either one in the future might have what we need.

And now a Shiloh breeder who I had been corresponding with months ago wwho also does all the requisite testing, temperament testing, etc., (everything but showing since it's still not recognized), has a litter of sables....what to do, what to do...?

I like this forum, just don't know if anyone can 'legitimately' belong if none of the pets are GSDs...though if we DO get a Shiloh, in the near future (when the proposed Shiloh would reach adulthood), we would still want to add a GSD into our lovely crazy house.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

All breeds are welcome, there are many members who don't even own a dog yet  I wish you all the best in your search


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

OP - there are several breeders who health test and produce some really nice dogs. All my boys paperwork says sable. He's very dark and I love it! He's exactly what I wanted but I would have been okay sacrificing color for the right dog too. That's not to say I don't get it though. I wanted a very dark sable dog and I got it. I consider him a black sable because his outer coat is black. 












Just beware, if you're looking for temperament and color preference, you're looking at working line dogs so make sure you're prepared for the energy. Health testing should definitely be priority above all. Good luck!


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## brandydan (May 7, 2015)

Wow, that is one strikingly beautiful (and very energetic) big puppy! Yeah, we know the coat color thing is weird, but first and foremost is the health and temperament of the puppy. Both breeders are nice, both responded that they can understand, and that when they do get a sable in a litter (they have sables, just not planning on having more than one litter at a time, which is understandable, plus one is in the middle of showing one of her dogs), that they will let me know. 

In the meantime, we can focus on getting our move back east underway, and if we do still get the Shiloh, we know we can add a GSD later on.

I still love going through these forums; I've found advice and suggestions that I have already started using even for my scotty and sheltie (though I still lack the nerve to start them on a raw diet but am seriously considering)


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## Kahrg4 (Dec 19, 2012)

KZoppa said:


>


Krystal this photo is hilarious! I legitimately L-O-L'ed! He's such a handsome boy and this is such a silly photo. Perfect!


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## McWeagle (Apr 23, 2014)

That last photo is fantastic! And I love his collar, too.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Kahrg4 said:


> Krystal this photo is hilarious! I legitimately L-O-L'ed! He's such a handsome boy and this is such a silly photo. Perfect!


Kate, he's a riot. Keeps me on my toes too. Did you see my post on FB about him doing his leap before looking? Yeah.... 



McWeagle said:


> That last photo is fantastic! And I love his collar, too.




haha Thanks! Superman is my ultimate favorite and the color is perfect.


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## Charlie W (Feb 12, 2013)

Hello, I just want to say that I don't think it is "shallow" to want a particular colour if it's a pet you're after. You have your priorities right insofar as you are more concerned with temperament and all the important stuff. But as you are not after a working dog, then you should not feel guilty about wanting a colour that you like. I mean, you'll be looking at your dog for a lot of years! I have 2 GSD's, both sable, one is a very pale sable, the other one is a very dark sable. They are both fabulous dogs, the dark sable (Bismarck) is still a pain in the butt because he's only 10 months old, whereas Norah is often described by us as the perfect dog because her behaviour is faultless. Here's the thing though, when we got Norah, we were after a sable, but if I'm honest, I really wanted a dark sable.. I think I got Bismarck because that "want" didn't go away. Now don't get me wrong, we have the space, means and knowledge for the dogs we have, and the decision wasn't as simple as that, but it did play a part and I don't feel guilty for that..

Norah is WL x SL.. Bismarck is full W/L, we have sheep, horses and cats, and neither of them have been a problem to train around the other animals, they are clever dogs and learn quickly what is acceptable. I do notice that the WL has a heap more energy, although we also have a doberman, so high energy is something we are used to!

A bit of a long reply, but basically, don't feel guilty about wanting a certain look, as long as you are prepared to wait for a dog that also ticks all the temperament / breeding boxes, then you shouldn't feel that it's shallow, and you are not alone!


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

Kahrg4 said:


> Krystal this photo is hilarious! I legitimately L-O-L'ed! He's such a handsome boy and this is such a silly photo. Perfect!


I laughed out loud too - this picture is great!


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## weberhaus (Jan 2, 2008)

Persinette- Thank you for the kind words about me and my dogs. Just in case you wanted to see progeny pictures the past litter page you may click on any litter letter and see all puppies from Every litter and they are updated.
Krystal awesome photos I love seeing Dax just be himself a big dork like his dad. 
Good for the OP in doing some research and being jumping in


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## mburitica181 (Jul 22, 2015)

KZoppa said:


> OP - there are several breeders who health test and produce some really nice dogs. All my boys paperwork says sable. He's very dark and I love it! He's exactly what I wanted but I would have been okay sacrificing color for the right dog too. That's not to say I don't get it though. I wanted a very dark sable dog and I got it. I consider him a black sable because his outer coat is black.
> 
> 
> Just beware, if you're looking for temperament and color preference, you're looking at working line dogs so make sure you're prepared for the energy. Health testing should definitely be priority above all. Good luck!


 
he is beautiful by the way!


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## noregrets (May 16, 2012)

Liesje said:


> The sable gene *is* the dominant color, if I'm not mistaken.
> 
> Black sable is a sable that is so dark he appears black unless you are petting the fur backwards and can see the sable ticking.
> 
> This is a sable West German Show Line, but not a black sable:


<3 ahh waiko. My next pup, if I'm going WGSL, I'd pick him as the sire


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## Lobo dog (Sep 19, 2014)

OP if you are still on the search for a puppy I must recommend Schone Stadt kennels. They are so supportive and responsive even though we have never bought a puppy directly from them. They only breed working line but they might have a puppy in there E litter who will have the temperament and energy level you are after. Their current litter (E litter) consists of mostly long coated puppies and a few are dark Sable! The parents are health tested (OFA hips and elbows, DM tested ect). If my parents ever get another shepherd my mother has said she will go directly to this breeder. Here are some photos of the LC Sable pups in the current litter.

and the link to their website http://www.schonestadt.com/e-litter.html


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## WestHouse1232 (Aug 22, 2015)

All this talk about colors an no one mentioned white! Is it that uncommon? First two pictures are Mom and Dad then our baby Arya. First of her was from last week and the second ears down was at 7 weeks old.


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## Lobo dog (Sep 19, 2014)

WestHouse1232 said:


> All this talk about colors an no one mentioned white! Is it that uncommon? First two pictures are Mom and Dad then our baby Arya. First of her was from last week and the second ears down was at 7 weeks old.


The reason nobody is talking about white is because the OP is specifically looking for a dark sable. Your baby is very cute though


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## wolfgurl (Sep 28, 2015)

For me, on a GSD breeder site, if a lot of info about health testing is not a first priority and very visible, then I don't look further. Tests that need to be done include: DM gene, hips and elbows, CERF. Other testing per the breeders' focus. I avoid all AKC show lines as I cannot stand roach backs, slope backs or any of that other stuff that has become common in the past 40 years but was unheard of prior to that. When you go to a dog show with "dog lovers" (vs. breedists) and they look in the Shepherd ring and see those sloped-out waggle-hocked dogs trotting around, they always - without exception - ask me, "what's wrong with those dogs?" That is what people with open eyes and no bias see when they see a slope-backed, hobbledy dog go by. If the handler opens up to high speed then the dogs do often show a flying trot, but that is no reason to cripple them for life. So health is first consideration, biddable temperament (drives aside) second, and after those two things are straightened out, you can talk about sex, colors, and drives.


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