# Amer. show line breeders near Ohio?



## SkyBox (Jul 15, 2014)

Beginning my homework now, but there are so many breeders and sites out there to wade through. I would appreciate any recommendations for quality breeders In Ohio or nearby states. It would be nice to narrow it down to a handful and go from there. 

I have done training with my last dog at "Whited k9" semi-local and they seem to be a reputable breeder and importer. I'm going to take my time to find the best fit - in no hurry. Still not over the loss of my last dog. 

Looking for a family and protection GSD. Not looking to show the dog or compete. I always thought the working lines were the purest of the breed with the best traits, but I've been reading that show lines could be a better fit for me.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

I would not expect an American show line to protect my house. The GSDCA banned schutzhund several decades ago, and very few American show line dogs even compete in obedience and other working competitions. The ones that do are very rarely the ones you'll see in the conformation ring.

If you are going to go this route, I strongly suggest you find an ASL breeder that emphasizes performance, health and temperament over show ring titles.

Read this link here to understand the differences in the lines: http://www.wildhauskennels.com/gsdtypes.htm


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Your title is EXTREMELY misleading!!!!!!!!


Your exposure is not to "American Show Lines (ASL)" if you were doing training at Bill Whiteds.....he has European lines, but is in Ohio......so I assume you are looking for an "American breeder" of European lines....

Defining reputable breeder can be a bit tricky!!!!!!!!!!! There are many that same general area with EUROPEAN lines that are selling puppies regularly.

www.germanshepherddogs.com is USCAs website....you will find clubs and breeders listed on this site who are within 2-5 hours from you....if you want to expand your search, several of us can make recommendations for reputable breeders. I am a few hours away in Pittsburgh and have trained up that way on and off for years. Another board member in the Akron area is getting a puppy from the midwest and will be making a road trip I understand. And Sunsilver may have some pups in a few months too! 


Lee


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Lee, good for you for catching the misleading title! Yes, HUGE difference! 

And yes, planning to breed my female to Lee's male, Komet!


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## SkyBox (Jul 15, 2014)

wolfstraum said:


> Your title is EXTREMELY misleading!!!!!!!!
> 
> Your exposure is not to "American Show Lines (ASL)" if you were doing training at Bill Whiteds.....he has European lines, but is in Ohio......so I assume you are looking for an "American breeder" of European lines....
> Lee


Sorry about the misleading title, but I'm interested in ASL - My shepherds have been AKC registered, but more of the Local breeder/family pet variety - not from Whiteds. While doing obedience with my Dog at Bill Whited's - is when I was introduced to European Lines and watching Schutzhund competitions.

The more I read, I feel that I'm going to get biased opinions on the different lines of the breed. I want my dog to be able learn obedience and home protection, and maybe I'm a bit naive in thinking an ASL can fit the bill. Just not sure that a working line is the most appropriate fit for me.

Can you tell me if reputable ASL breeders are less common than GSL or European working lines? Thanks for the info, I do want to expand my search if necessary. I'm not 100% set on a specific line, but I need a better understanding of what quality breeders are out there.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

@dogfaeries and @Jenny720 have ASLs and may have some breeder suggestions for you.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

SkyBox said:


> Sorry about the misleading title, but I'm interested in ASL - My shepherds have been AKC registered, but more of the Local breeder/family pet variety - not from Whiteds. While doing obedience with my Dog at Bill Whited's - is when I was introduced to European Lines and watching Schutzhund competitions.
> 
> The more I read, I feel that I'm going to get biased opinions on the different lines of the breed. I want my dog to be able learn obedience and home protection, and maybe I'm a bit naive in thinking an ASL can fit the bill. Just not sure that a working line is the most appropriate fit for me.
> 
> Can you tell me if reputable ASL breeders are less common than GSL or European working lines? Thanks for the info, I do want to expand my search if necessary. I'm not 100% set on a specific line, but I need a better understanding of what quality breeders are out there.


Sorry - my understanding from the context of your post, and the title, was that you wanted a dog with some trainability .....The last thing you want is an ASL if you want OB and home protection ability....they just are not bred for those attributes....I would totally agree that you are "naive in thinking an ASL can fit the bill"

I still think a good balanced working line would be your best bet.....I have been to many many AKC shows/ob trials/agility etc....the GSDs who do well, who show with attentiveness and energy are without fail all or part Euro working lines....as I said, I am in Pittsburgh, and have done the Canfield shows, Ravenna, Cleveland Classic etc....

A few of the very worse ASL dogs for temperament are from that part of Ohio....


Lee


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Do not listen to the crap that american showline will not protect you or your house it is crap. It seems to be that I learned on this forum there is a diligence In ones search to find a balanced dog who has any protections instincts who look and runs toward the fight with anticipation then a Dog who runs and stomp of foot or a swing of a bat in the real thick of things. Personally to me it’s dependant on the dog itself and not whether it’s a wl, wgsl or asl. Even though i stick around this forum because it has some good information I would have did a tremendous injustice to myself and family if I stumbled upon this forum before I found my asl and had been swayed away from my american showline. Never had such an unbreakable bond with any dog I had ever owned. The breeder who is reputable and honest is key regardless of the lines and this still is not a guarantee you will get what you want but makes the scales tip more in your favor. Do not know any breeders in Ohio but some asl breeders in closest surrounding states 
http://www.karizmashepherds.com/
http://www.kaleefgermanshepherds.com/the-handsome-boys/
http://casamoko.com/
http://www.caissonkennels.com/pb/wp_ab05c0c3/wp_ab05c0c3.html


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Aren't the Marcato dogs ASL? She's a member and I don't know where she is but maybe she has some input?


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Please READ the link you were given. This is one of the most accurate descriptions of the different GSD lines I have ever read, and this is what it says about the ASL:

(Types of German Shepherds, by Wildhaus Kennels )

Temperament, nerve, intelligence, and ability to work are not tested in the show ring so they are not considerations for many breeders. The responsible breeders of this type go the extra mile and prove their dog's trainability and health through performance titles and extensive health testing. Unfortunately, as with all the types, not all breeders are responsible.

Dogs from this bloodline can make very nice family pets, and those from lines that are also performance titled can often do well in activities such as obedience, tracking, agility and AKC style herding. *But as a rule they do not have the hardness, drive and strength of character to make them suitable for schutzhund, personal protection or law enforcement.* While some few do participate and do well in these areas, they are the exceptions that prove the rule. The ability to excel in these fields is not a focal point of their breeding, nor has it been for many generations, and as a result most of these qualities have been lost in these lines.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Sabis mom said:


> Aren't the Marcato dogs ASL? She's a member and I don't know where she is but maybe she has some input?


Jackie has not been well. I doubt she has any dogs available, and she will certainly not be breeding another litter unless her health improves. However, she may be able to recommend someone reputable that has these lines.


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## SkyBox (Jul 15, 2014)

wolfstraum said:


> I still think a good balanced working line would be your best bet.....I have been to many many AKC shows/ob trials/agility etc....the GSDs who do well, who show with attentiveness and energy are without fail all or part Euro working lines....as I said, I am in Pittsburgh, and have done the Canfield shows, Ravenna, Cleveland Classic etc...
> Lee


So what would be some of your top recommended working line breeders around Ohio and neighboring states? Thanks


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Jenny720 said:


> Do not listen to the crap that american showline will not protect you or your house it is crap. It seems to be that I learned on this forum there is a diligence In ones search to find a balanced dog who has any protections instincts who look and runs toward the fight with anticipation then a Dog who runs and stomp of foot or a swing of a bat in the real thick of things. Personally to me it’s dependant on the dog itself and not whether it’s a wl, wgsl or asl. Even though i stick around this forum because it has some good information I would have did a tremendous injustice to myself and family if I stumbled upon this forum before I found my asl and had been swayed away from my american showline. Never had such an unbreakable bond with any dog I had ever owned. The breeder who is reputable and honest is key regardless of the lines and this still is not a guarantee you will get what you want but makes the scales tip more in your favor. Do not know any breeders in Ohio but some asl breeders in closest surrounding states
> Our Boys
> Casamoko German Shepherds Wisconsin-German Shepherd Breeder
> CaissonKennels.com - Cassie



WEll - I would say you have been lucky and got the exception to the rule.

I have spent 20 years plus in the breed. I have gone to innumerable AKC shows in PA/OH/MD - I have seen the GSDs in the ring and OB/etc.........I have known breeders of ASLs. The reason I got into European lines was because I saw these ASLs when I was showing my BYB black and silver mix WGSL/WL/BY black and silver...who won OB classes...

The most pathetic dog I have ever seen of any breed in my life was from one of these cited kennels. You had to feel sorry for the dog she was so afraid of the world and people. BUT - she *"moved like the wind"* and was bred...the person who raised her refused to breed her, the co-owner then took her, finished her and bred her....no one could touch her in the kennel, she dropped to the floor and trembled....this was when she was with the first owner....she was not abused, not man handled...just 110% fearful...but she was bred....she produced quite a few the same way....



I stand by 20 years of observing these dogs......there are always exceptions, but for the most part...you are not going to get an ASL with the kind of temperament you are looking for...you have a better shot with a BYB dog!


Lee


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Jackie’s contract information located out in New Jersey bIt her contact information is listed here. 
http://www.marcatogermanshepherds.com/


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Good grief, slow down here. We really jumped hard on that "ASL is nervy and can't do a darn thing" bandwagon. 

First of all, everyone comes on here saying they want a protection dog (or a dog for protection). What exactly does that mean to you, SkyBox? Do you want to do a protection SPORT, do you want to have a dog that is trained in protection, or do you want a dog that makes you feel safe when you are home and out and about?

Where in the world do you guys get that ASL can't do obedience? Seriously? My local GSD club is filled with people doing obedience with their dogs, and I don't just mean a CD.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

wolfstraum said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> > Do not listen to the crap that american showline will not protect you or your house it is crap. It seems to be that I learned on this forum there is a diligence In ones search to find a balanced dog who has any protections instincts who look and runs toward the fight with anticipation then a Dog who runs and stomp of foot or a swing of a bat in the real thick of things. Personally to me it’s dependant on the dog itself and not whether it’s a wl, wgsl or asl. Even though i stick around this forum because it has some good information I would have did a tremendous injustice to myself and family if I stumbled upon this forum before I found my asl and had been swayed away from my american showline. Never had such an unbreakable bond with any dog I had ever owned. The breeder who is reputable and honest is key regardless of the lines and this still is not a guarantee you will get what you want but makes the scales tip more in your favor. Do not know any breeders in Ohio but some asl breeders in closest surrounding states
> ...



Well this has been my very small experience - being happy with my asl -who is not untrainable and a bag of shaking nerves -and one thing is I am certainly not lucky. So luck there has nothing to do with it.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

I have a female that's a cross between very good ASL lines (Dallas) and very good German SL (Ursus). She got a BH but I was told she didn't quite have the nerves to get an IPO1. She's a good dog, though, and I'd trust her to protect my home. Not sure she would attack someone, but she sure SOUNDS like she might! 

I now have a working line dog, and the difference in nerves, drive, athletic ability and everything else needed for a working dog is like night and day.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

dogfaeries said:


> First of all, everyone comes on here saying they want a protection dog (or a dog for protection). What exactly does that mean to you, SkyBox? Do you want to do a protection SPORT, do you want to have a dog that is trained in protection, or do you want a dog that makes you feel safe when you are home and out and about?


This is a very good question. I have no interest in participating in protection sports and I don't expect my dogs to actually protect me in a situation where I'm at serious risk of harm (which, BTW, I've never been in before). But because they're big dogs that bark, they are a deterrent, and that's all I really need. I feel safe if I'm out with them, and if someone were casing my neighborhood for houses to rob I'm confident that my dogs' big scary barks would be enough to cause them to pass us by and pick another house. When this comes up on the board, which it does quite frequently, and the member is questioned further, this is what _*most*_ of them mean when they say they want a protective dog. Not all, of course, but most, which is why clarification is important.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I have a big goofy happy ASL sitting in my living room right now. Great with kids, fun, silly. I also wouldn't suggest you come into my house unannounced, or you'll meet the business end of him. He's not kidding around. This is from experience, not me thinking he'll act that way.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

While I personally prefer working line dogs, I have to say my male WL has weaker nerves than any well bred ASL dog I have ever seen. Sure, he has more drive, and sure, he very well could do a good job of deterring criminals, but he also has no threshold, isn’t clear headed and has more defense than judgment. I cannot see how that would be a better choice for most people. There are good and bad in all the lines. If the OP feels a well bred ASL dog would be a better fit for their situation, there is no need to lump every single ASL dog together and bash them all.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

dogfaeries said:


> Good grief, slow down here. We really jumped hard on that "ASL is nervy and can't do a darn thing" bandwagon.
> 
> First of all, everyone comes on here saying they want a protection dog (or a dog for protection). What exactly does that mean to you, SkyBox? Do you want to do a protection SPORT, do you want to have a dog that is trained in protection, or do you want a dog that makes you feel safe when you are home and out and about?
> 
> Where in the world do you guys get that ASL can't do obedience? Seriously? My local GSD club is filled with people doing obedience with their dogs, and I don't just mean a CD.


Yes. This board is super biased toward working lines. There are good dogs out there who are not working lines. There are even good white dogs GASP, guess how I know? Because I have one.

And everybody says they want a dog for protection. Heck, I am one of them. But here is what protection means to me: I am not going to protection train my dogs. I am not going to compete at schutzhund. I want a dog that is a good watch dog, that alerts to unusual or suspicious behavior, notifies me in a nice booming bark when there is a stranger around, and is not so into people that it can't stand next to me acting neutral if I have a workman doing something around here.

My white dog does all that, and is easy to manage and when I tell him it's cool he stands there next to me neutral. 

My white dog's sire was an OTCH with tons of other performance titles besides obedience, my dog has finished a rally championship but I haven't had time to start him in traditional obedience. I think he will rock it if I can ever get him there. He is a heck of a tracker, and just did his second TD with very nice compliments from the judges (the club needed entries so we did it again since I don't feel we are quite ready for TDX) 

Whether I have a dog who would "get in the fight" or not, my dogs almost certainly never will need to. 

I know if a stranger enters the house without an escort and introduction he will charge and hold them at the door because I stupidly let it happen one time. 

Working lines can be awesome, but there really are good dogs out there who aren't WL too.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

There is another white GSD that I have competed against quite a bit--he is a rescue so who knows where he came from, conformationally he is kind of a wreck to look at, but he is a very stable dog at least from what you can see of him out competing. He looks like a byb dog. I've never seen him act fearful. He appears totally neutral about people but I have said hi to him and he will allow a person to pet him.

He usually smokes everybody, this last trial no exception, he smoked just about everybody there beating me and another lady who is competing with two GSDs--one is a working line the other looks like maybe a work/wgsl cross but could just be a different looking working line. I think she might have even told me she's a wgsl cross though. But I'm not sure.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Protection.

Last night, being a decent human, I let a man sleep off too many beers on my couch. A man I have known well for 20+ years. 
At some point in the middle of the night he (giving him the benefit of the doubt here) over shot the bathroom door and opened my bedroom door.
Without a seconds hesitation my ASL mill dog was on her feet between me and the door barking like a nut. When he pushed his luck and reached toward her, she bit him. 
She sleeps on my bed, but closer to the door. She knows and likes this person. At NO POINT did she leave the bed or my side. When he retreated and walked away, leaving the door open, she gave me a kiss and laid back down. I got up, and called him a cab. She behaved like she normally does and interacted with him in the living room.
This is not the first time she has threatened or snapped at someone for walking into my room. My husband, who helped raise her, entered my house early one morning and opened my bedroom door. He got the same reaction. 

My point is that for the average person this would be ample protection. We are not all looking for dogs that will chase down and apprehend an armed criminal. We are not all interested in deep, full bites or bark and hold.
For the average pet owner a dog that barks at an intrusion and is a deterrent is protection enough.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Yup it’s what I like best. Max has a sweet side funny side charming side, natural protective side and pain the but side- lol! I have kids and Lots of young crazy nephews who like to scream yell and not always listening -very stable and forgiving dog. he can be trained to do many things has great work drive and lots of fun! I had a gsd dog who was trained in real police work he would take someone out seriously out. He was a real serious different kind of dog a great dog for us at that time.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I guess my point is, if you are a celebrity or a politician or somebody who has reason to believe that you need legitimate protection, and you will protection train your dog and need that dog to really fight for you, then yeah, get a working line and not just any working line.

But that isn't the vast majority of us


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> And everybody says they want a dog for protection. Heck, I am one of them. But here is what protection means to me: I am not going to protection train my dogs. I am not going to compete at schutzhund. I want a dog that is a good watch dog, that alerts to unusual or suspicious behavior, notifies me in a nice booming bark when there is a stranger around, and is not so into people that it can't stand next to me acting neutral if I have a workman doing something around here.


Exactly. Well, Keefer is pretty into people, so he would not be so neutral. But that's okay with me, I love him exactly the way he is. 



> Whether I have a dog who would "get in the fight" or not, my dogs almost certainly never will need to.
> 
> I know if a stranger enters the house without an escort and introduction he will charge and hold them at the door because I stupidly let it happen one time.


Yep. It hasn't ever happened that someone just walked into our house though because the front door is locked at all times, but there isn't a doubt in my mind that if someone did they wouldn't get two steps in the door before making a hasty retreat. Actually, they probably wouldn't even take a single step in the door, they'd open it, see the dogs, and run like ****! Door to door salespeople often leave before we can even get to the door due to the dogs barking when they ring the bell. And those that stick around long enough for us to answer generally take several steps back as soon as they see them.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> There are good dogs out there who are not working lines. There are even good white dogs GASP, guess how I know? Because I have one.


Now, you are just making that up, LOL.



Thecowboysgirl said:


> But here is what protection means to me: I am not going to protection train my dogs. I am not going to compete at schutzhund. I want a dog that is a good watch dog, that alerts to unusual or suspicious behavior, notifies me in a nice booming bark when there is a stranger around, and is not so into people that it can't stand next to me acting neutral if I have a workman doing something around here.
> 
> My white dog does all that, and is easy to manage and when I tell him it's cool he stands there next to me neutral.


Russ is the same way. He's easy to manage too. If he wasn't all up in my business 24/7, I'd like it better, haha.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Last trial I was at it was the handler of a golden of all things complaining the wind was making the roof creak which scared her dog and made for a bad run.

None of the GSDs were bothered. Better bred white, poorly bred white, and the other two


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## SkyBox (Jul 15, 2014)

dogfaeries said:


> What exactly does that mean to you, SkyBox? Do you want to do a protection SPORT, do you want to have a dog that is trained in protection, or do you want a dog that makes you feel safe when you are home and out and about?


Great question. I don't want a protection sport dog, but to have the ability to learn some basic protection if I wanted to put in the time in training. I not a trainer, breeder, or expert, but in my experience with GSD's - many seem to have a natural protective instinct. They seem to go into that mode once they sense aggression or physical contact. Maybe more bark than bite.

Fortunately, Ive never been in a situation where my dogs needed to attack anyone. I tend to think it depends on the individual dog and temperment as to whether they go into fight or flight. And maybe there is no such thing as teaching "Basic Protection". I guess a trainer would need to chime in on that. It seems that dogs trained in protection will wait for command rather than make their own judgement call - like biting your UPS driver since he's trespassing in their eyes.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

SkyBox said:


> Great question. I don't want a protection sport dog, but to have the ability to learn some basic protection if I wanted to put in the time in training. I not a trainer, breeder, or expert, but in my experience with GSD's - many seem to have a natural protective instinct. They seem to go into that mode once they sense aggression or physical contact. Maybe more bark than bite.
> 
> Fortunately, Ive never been in a situation where my dogs needed to attack anyone. I tend to think it depends on the individual dog and temperment as to whether they go into fight or flight. And maybe there is no such thing as teaching "Basic Protection". I guess a trainer would need to chime in on that. It seems that dogs trained in protection will wait for command rather than make their own judgement call - like biting your UPS driver since he's trespassing in their eyes.


Solid obedience is a deterrent in and of itself. Many people will see a GSD as formidable, but witnessing a well trained one even moreso.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I've shared this before, but in this past year there was a vehicle that was stopped out in western Oklahoma, a drug bust kind of thing, and several men fled into the countryside to hide. One of them ended up breaking into a girl's house that happens to own some ASLs. These are actual show dogs, that are closely related to my Scarlet. Her smallest girl apparently beat the snot out of this poor hapless guy, and held him until the police came. She'd only been trained to run around a show ring at that point.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Skybox that was my impression. Important to have your gsd well trained.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

How did a request for a breeder end up with a “my line is better than your line” thread? I like all lines for their abilities and their differences. Right now, I’m in awe of my WL who has finally matured and is done with all basic training. We are doing advanced work and he is a rock star. So smart, so good at everything. I love how I can take him anywhere and people comment on his beauty and his behavior. They want to know what breed he is. I am finally experiencing why people here love their WLs so much and have line bias. Personally, I love whatever dogs I have at the moment. Right now it is a WL and a rescue.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Luvshepherds- I never understood it and never will!!!!! I love all the lines had them all and each one had their strengths and weakness and their weakness were not a hindrance to our lifestyle at the time they were in our lives.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

LuvShepherds said:


> How did a request for a breeder end up with a “my line is better than your line” thread?


Ah, because it always does. 

Skybox, just do your homework. Decide what you realistically want, and go from there.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

LuvShepherds said:


> How did a request for a breeder end up with a “my line is better than your line” thread? I like all lines for their abilities and their differences. Right now, I’m in awe of my WL who has finally matured and is done with all basic training. We are doing advanced work and he is a rock star. So smart, so good at everything. I love how I can take him anywhere and people comment on his beauty and his behavior. They want to know what breed he is. I am finally experiencing why people here love their WLs so much and have line bias. Personally, I love whatever dogs I have at the moment. Right now it is a WL and a rescue.


Well, OP said they wanted an american show line. Pretty quickly people say well american show lines are quivering piles of nerves that can't do anything, least of all protect you. The only decent GSD is a working line

Some of us who have non working lines get tired of hearing that when we share our lives with good dogs and our breeders work hard and their dogs are out doing a lot of stuff besides conformation.

OP, you've probably gotten the most you will get from this board as far as people who like ASLs-- PM people from this thread for breeder recommendations, and go meet the dogs. Go see the dogs doing whatever they do. If they are nerve bags, move on. I hope you find what you are looking for.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

dogfaeries said:


> I've shared this before, but in this past year there was a vehicle that was stopped out in western Oklahoma, a drug bust kind of thing, and several men fled into the countryside to hide. One of them ended up breaking into a girl's house that happens to own some ASLs. These are actual show dogs, that are closely related to my Scarlet. Her smallest girl apparently beat the snot out of this poor hapless guy, and held him until the police came. She'd only been trained to run around a show ring at that point.


Yes there are often stories I hear of their gsds saving a family from fire a break into their home and many to me look like asl or are asl.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

dogfaeries said:


> Ah, because it always does.


The sound of laughter here.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

*Well, OP said they wanted an american show line*

Yes, and they said they wanted it to protect them, and maybe do bitework with it. And an ASL is NOT the ideal dog for this activity. We'd be remiss if we didn't point that out!

I know many people who made a mistake with the dog they chose as their first GSD. I am one of them. I love her dearly, but she was NOT what I was hoping to find, and if I'd been more experienced, I would have picked a different dog.

I am sure everyone here wants to help the OP make the wisest choice.


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## SkyBox (Jul 15, 2014)

Sunsilver said:


> I am sure everyone here wants to help the OP make the wisest choice.


This post has definitely given me a lot to think about and consider. Appreciate all the feedback from both sides of the fence!


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## Digs1 (Mar 5, 2018)

Not to take the discussion too far off course,but why would you want a show bred dog if you don't show?

You could pick up a mutt from the shelter that will likely be as capable of any fun activities and probably be far healthier.
I could spend £100 on a farm bred collie pup that'd almost certainly blow it out of the water in virtually every activity and be healthier too.

Is it just the look?


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Sigh.


Well, I show, so maybe I shouldn't answer this. I'll let you guys do it. I'm going to go play with my dogs.


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## SkyBox (Jul 15, 2014)

Digs1 said:


> Not to take the discussion too far off course,but why would you want a show bred dog if you don't show?
> You could pick up a mutt from the shelter that will likely be as capable of any fun activities and probably be far healthier.
> I could spend £100 on a farm bred collie pup that'd almost certainly blow it out of the water in virtually every activity and be healthier too.
> 
> Is it just the look?


No it's not the look. It's the peace of mind in knowing that they come from quality breeders and are of great health and temperment.

Plus I grew up with a GSD. Once you've had German Shepherds you always want to to have all those fine characteristics in every dog. My first instinct was do go with a working dog this time around, but I don't want one to be underworked and anxious.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Ok. I didn't think the OP said they wanted to do bitework. If OP. wants to do schutzhund then they should find a breeder who is titling their dogs in schutzhund and no that won't be an ASK.

If they want a shepherd for a pet that will also be protective in the sense discussed above that most of us want our dogs to be protective then an ASL may be fine for them. They said they wanted one which leads me to believe they've seen them and like them.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Digs1 said:


> Not to take the discussion too far off course,but why would you want a show bred dog if you don't show?
> 
> You could pick up a mutt from the shelter that will likely be as capable of any fun activities and probably be far healthier.
> I could spend £100 on a farm bred collie pup that'd almost certainly blow it out of the water in virtually every activity and be healthier too.
> ...


I went back and checked your previous posts. You don’t own a purebred German Shepherd, so from that perspective your question makes sense. Most of of us here now have or have previously owned purebreds. If someone owns and loves a mixed breed or another pet breed, then I’m happy for them. But there is no comparison anywhere to a well bred German Shepherd of any line. GSDs are bred to be both pets and working dogs. ASLs were once all working dogs. There were no line differences. Temperament, abilities, stamina, loyalty, protectiveness are all reasons to get a purebred.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

no matter how many times I try to type O P it autocorrect to P.O. so you are now the parole officer whether you like it or not


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

Digs1 said:


> Not to take the discussion too far off course,but why would you want a show bred dog if you don't show?
> 
> You could pick up a mutt from the shelter that will likely be as capable of any fun activities and probably be far healthier.
> I could spend £100 on a farm bred collie pup that'd almost certainly blow it out of the water in virtually every activity and be healthier too.
> ...


Why would you want a Greyhound if you don't race them?

Why would you want a terrier if you don't hunt small rodents?

Why would you want a Border Collie if you don't herd?

I'm sure we can all come up with a million answers for that, but the main one being that we like our breed, and we like strong, healthy, and capable representations of our breed. 

Nothing wrong with a mixed breed dog, but breeds exist for a reason, and good breeders keep those reasons in mind. No idea where this idea that mutts are healthier than a health tested, well bred dog. My next door neighbours have always had mutts, and they have probably paid for a brand new luxury car with the amount of vet care they have put into their dogs over time.


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## Digs1 (Mar 5, 2018)

LuvShepherds said:


> I went back and checked your previous posts. You don’t own a purebred German Shepherd, so from that perspective your question makes sense. Most of of us here now have or have previously owned purebreds. If someone owns and loves a mixed breed or another pet breed, then I’m happy for them. But there is no comparison anywhere to a well bred German Shepherd of any line. GSDs are bred to be both pets and working dogs. ASLs were once all working dogs. There were no line differences. Temperament, abilities, stamina, loyalty, protectiveness are all reasons to get a purebred.


I have owned pure shepherds,a couple working bred and an 'alsation',also been around them most of my life,I love the breed still and will likely get a working line bitch in when i have the kennel space.

There were no differences,but there are now.
imo show bred dogs are more often than not just shells of the real breed,similar in looks but no longer worthy of the name.

That goes for all breeds who've been show bred long enough,if it can't be a shepherd/police dog is it a German shepherd?
If it can't find,flush and retrieve game is it really a Labrador retriever? 
I reckon my 10 year old donkey of a lurcher could run rings around a lot of these frail show bred whippets I see.

That's just pragmatic imo,no offense intended,some people spend a lot more money collecting rare stamps!
it takes all sorts as they say.


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

Digs1 said:


> I have owned pure shepherds,a couple working bred and an 'alsation',also been around them most of my life,I love the breed still and will likely get a working line bitch in when i have the kennel space.
> 
> There were no differences,but there are now.
> imo show bred dogs are more often than not just shells of the real breed,similar in looks but no longer worthy of the name.
> ...


No offense, taken. That all comes down to finding the breeder who matches the ideals of the breed, whether show or sport. I know of many show line breeders who breed dogs perfectly capable of being in both the show ring and in Schutzhund, and who have placed several of their dogs with the police. There's just as many working line breeders who breed dogs that are not good representations of the breed - they go for extremes. I have a show line dog in my Schutzhund club who is miles ahead of my working line dog in terms of workability. Does that mean my dog is bad even though she's a "better representation"? 

If we go back to the roots of a German Shepherd, they should have been ideal herding dogs for large herds over vast distances, and yet they started to lose that ability so instead we decided to focus on what they might be better at instead - Schutzhund. A sport specifically made for the breed because we still wanted them to be a working dog. How many working line GSDs do you know of that have a herding title? If they don't have it, does that mean the working dogs we have today are only shells of their original existence since they don't title in herding very often? Some people might think that way. 

It really makes for a cyclical argument, and once again we're back where we started - "this line is better than that line". The OP wants a German Shepherd. If that happens to be from a specific line, it's up to them to find a line that matches their lifestyle and goals. I'm never going to discount a well bred show line because it can't match up to a well bred working line. Different purposes were in mind during the breeding. Doesn't mean either of them isn't a good dog to have granted they both come from ethical, well studied breeders. 

And I think that's where a lot of us lose focus... a good breeder is going to keep those core characteristics in mind. When you breed to extremes, you aren't really breeding a dog anymore, you're breeding a characteristic and that's a loss for the breed IMHO.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Look at this, the last sentence > 20 Things You Didn't Know About German Shepherds

West German Show lines have to be titled to register their puppies (or used to anyway). Usually, that is titled in Schutzhund. West German show lines are bred from dogs, as the article says, " Some of the traits tested by this sport include the desire to work, intelligence, courage, the bond with the dog handler, trainability, sense of smell, perseverance, and protective instinct."

American showlines just need to trot around a ring and be physically examined by judges. In my opinion the West German show lines are balanced dogs and are all a GSD should be for family pets. American showline are more light boned and delicate with Collie noses and tend to be soft natured.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Nurse Bishop said:


> American showline are more light boned and delicate with Collie noses and tend to be soft natured.




Feel free to come over and meet Scarlet, who has great bone, not Collie nosed, and is definitely not soft natured or delicate. 

While I find all this ASL bashing to be great entertainment, I’m putting on my moderator hat and saying enough is enough. The OP thanked us for our perspectives. No need to rev this back up again.


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## Digs1 (Mar 5, 2018)

Femfa said:


> No offense, taken. That all comes down to finding the breeder who matches the ideals of the breed, whether show or sport. I know of many show line breeders who breed dogs perfectly capable of being in both the show ring and in Schutzhund, and who have placed several of their dogs with the police. There's just as many working line breeders who breed dogs that are not good representations of the breed - they go for extremes. I have a show line dog in my Schutzhund club who is miles ahead of my working line dog in terms of workability. Does that mean my dog is bad even though she's a "better representation"?
> 
> If we go back to the roots of a German Shepherd, they should have been ideal herding dogs for large herds over vast distances, and yet they started to lose that ability so instead we decided to focus on what they might be better at instead - Schutzhund. A sport specifically made for the breed because we still wanted them to be a working dog. How many working line GSDs do you know of that have a herding title? If they don't have it, does that mean the working dogs we have today are only shells of their original existence since they don't title in herding very often? Some people might think that way.
> 
> ...



I have no stats but I'm fairly confident mongrels are more healthy and long lived than show GSD's on average.

The GSD to my knowledge (I'm not a historian of the breed) was saved from becoming nothing more than a show dog when it's job started to disappear,by becoming a police dog.
I think it's fair to say the breed has changed since it was primarily used as a herding dog,it's probably lost and gained some qualities,if it had become just a show dog back when it's job disappeared by this point it would have lost all of it's practical qualities.

I'd get a greyhound as a pet if I didn't course/race,because as it is the greyhound makes a good pet for a lot of people,that's not the same as bastardising a square peg until it fits a round hole.

The OP wants a dog that has some ability to protect him is healthy and of good temperament,none of which is necessary for a show dog, even IF a show bred pups parents fit the bill it's probably got more ancestors in the last 60 odd years who were bred solely for size,gait and colour rather than any of the above qualities,so that's hardly stacking the deck in your favour.

Anyway I think I've offended enough people for one night!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

German Shepherds were originally herding dogs that shortly after were then used as police dogs, just a couple of years after their recognition.

When you start mixing breeds, all you do is add the genetic health conditions of one breed to that of another so you double up on health issues.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Jenny720 said:


> Well this has been my very small experience - being happy with my asl -who is not untrainable and a bag of shaking nerves -and one thing is I am certainly not lucky. So luck there has nothing to do with it.



I made no comment about your specific dog....I was citing my own personal observations and knowledge of specific kennels you recommended....

the ASLs I see doing OB have less energy and drive than the Corgi's and the Shelties in the same classes....they amble in recalls, they lag in heeling, they fail to sit at halts....they still get CDX and even UDs...they just don't have the desire or enthusiasm in even simple obedience work...I have done training at an AKC oriented club for about 18 years now....I train with an AKC judge ....and every pup I place locally goes there if possible....the instructors are the ones who tell me these things as well....

Lee


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

First of all, the GSDCA most certainly participates in Schutzhund. They have clubs, nationals, participate in the WUSV. Are they using ASL? No. But IPO is NOT banned by the GSDCA.

Second, I'm sure you can find a good ASL breeder. There is one in Clarks Summit PA, Hollow Hills, who breeds both WGSL and ASL. I like both her lines. Her dogs are very well suited for obedience. I can't speak for the ASL doing protection but they are very stable dogs.


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

Digs1 said:


> I have no stats but I'm fairly confident mongrels are more healthy and long lived than show GSD's on average.
> 
> The GSD to my knowledge (I'm not a historian of the breed) was saved from becoming nothing more than a show dog when it's job started to disappear,by becoming a police dog.
> I think it's fair to say the breed has changed since it was primarily used as a herding dog,it's probably lost and gained some qualities,if it had become just a show dog back when it's job disappeared by this point it would have lost all of it's practical qualities.
> ...


Honestly, I meant it when I said no offense taken. Not sure how that random comma got in there, but I know at the very least I'm not. Rather, I'd just hate to paint every line except working lines with a horrible brush and deter the OP from getting a dog that best suits them because we would rather push a specific idea on them. If the OP wanted a true home protector, they'd be better off looking into a breed such as the Cane Corso.

And just to touch on health a bit, for OP and anyone else interested, I actually looked into the research that has been done by a few veterinary schools myself because this bothered me greatly: the claims that a mixed mutt has more health than a health tested dog. A health tested dog with health tested ancestors is going to be far healthier (and come with a guarantee if otherwise) than a mixed breed dog with no testing done. Luck of the draw does not equate to a healthier dog... correlation is not causation. I'm really not sure where this idea was perpetuated, because I myself grew up with it until I researched it more. Now I have a hard time believing it. Used to believe purebreds were dumb and bad, with poor health, and were inbred. That's when I learned purebred does not mean well bred. Two very different things.

We have to also do our best to remember that protection doesn't mean the same thing to everyone. It's been said many times before, and will be again... a working line dog is no more likely to protect you than a show line because they've simply not been trained to. They'll make great deterrents - regardless of line - because GSDs are perceived as "mean" and "dangerous", and a barking dog is a great prevention for theft/break ins according to police departments. If someone will break in or go after you not caring about the presence of a medium/large dog, then chances are they mean harm and personally I'd rather my dog not get involved in a scenario like that. I mean hey, I'd love to watch anyone decidedly walk into any home with some show line dogs and just test the theory that they won't be a great deterrent or home protector, or prevent people from approaching you on a walk. If it looks like a GSD, chances are no one is going to mess with you. If it barks like a GSD, chances are no one is going to want to open the door without you there.

The only way to stack the deck in your favor is to be realistic about what you want, and to do research (as the OP is) to find a breeder who produces what you need. Discounting a line that may work best for the OP because of our own personal biases is not going to help them. And this is coming from someone who will only ever own working line dogs, because they're more my jam. I love IPO, I love working my dog, and working in a show ring doesn't really appeal to me. But I'm not gonna throw down the gauntlet on specific lines when they make great companions for others, so long as they choose to support ethical breeders.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Nurse Bishop said:


> American showlines just need to trot around a ring and be physically examined by judges.


...and crate well, travel well, handle unfamiliar surroundings, crowded venues, frequent grooming, lights, cameras, strange dogs...

just sayin.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

wolfstraum said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> > Well this has been my very small experience - being happy with my asl -who is not untrainable and a bag of shaking nerves -and one thing is I am certainly not lucky. So luck there has nothing to do with it.
> ...


Not knowing the breeders but heard good things about the kennels I mentioned in the closest area to where the op lives. I grew up with asl kennel down our block my friends father bred and showed asl. I tagged along on many shows. Seen asl in obedience classes and herding lessons. Our experience and opinions on asl are clearly different. If for once second I thought asl were spooks, unsound and nerve bags there would be no place in my family for them as have I kids and many young nephews and family and friends coming over to visit often a stable dog a priority. Knowing asl’s I also knew when I had the time to bring one into my home because I knew they were not low drive lazy dogs.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

*ASL bashing will stop now!*

I've seen plenty of nervy dogs from all lines, and there are plenty of fine dogs from all lines. It depends on what the person likes and wants. 

Reading the OP's first few posts, I get the impression that they are looking for a West German show line with AKC registration.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Check with the German Shepherd Dog Club of Northern Ohio. GSDCNO inc

There is usually a contact that knows who has litters, puppies available and can give you names of folks that show their dogs -- these are the breeders who are doing their best to breed the ASL dogs to the standard, and compete against each other. If I was looking for an ASL pup, I would go there for names of breeders.


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## Digs1 (Mar 5, 2018)

Femfa said:


> Honestly, I meant it when I said no offense taken. Not sure how that random comma got in there, but I know at the very least I'm not. Rather, I'd just hate to paint every line except working lines with a horrible brush and deter the OP from getting a dog that best suits them because we would rather push a specific idea on them. If the OP wanted a true home protector, they'd be better off looking into a breed such as the Cane Corso.
> 
> And just to touch on health a bit, for OP and anyone else interested, I actually looked into the research that has been done by a few veterinary schools myself because this bothered me greatly: the claims that a mixed mutt has more health than a health tested dog. A health tested dog with health tested ancestors is going to be far healthier (and come with a guarantee if otherwise) than a mixed breed dog with no testing done. Luck of the draw does not equate to a healthier dog... correlation is not causation. I'm really not sure where this idea was perpetuated, because I myself grew up with it until I researched it more. Now I have a hard time believing it. Used to believe purebreds were dumb and bad, with poor health, and were inbred. That's when I learned purebred does not mean well bred. Two very different things.
> 
> ...


Yeah I know you're not offended,but others seem to be.
Inbreeding and line breeding exaggerates characteristics the breeder wants,but can bring some very unwanted problems too,so you're safe from that with a mutt.

GSD's are riddled with health problems and are short lived,whereas racing and coursing greyhounds (which are often much bigger than GSD's) are often very closely bred,2 in 1 out is an old saying about greyhound breeding,they're generally fed poor quality food,never health tested,go through vigorous training in early life but are still very healthy and longer lived,because they're bred purely for performance.

I knew a successful old sporting dog breeder who said 'putting even a drop of show blood in your dogs is like putting a drop of poop in your ice cream,it might be well hidden in good stuff but it'll show up eventually'.

That's a less polite way of saying all of those show dog ancestors who were bred despite being very poor specimens,even if the pup's parents are ok,are still there and there's a good chance their traits will show up.

I still see no point in them unless you're showing them,you can get much more functional,healthier,cheaper,longer lived dogs that aren't wired to the moon very easily.

But I'll leave it there,because I'm not trying to bash people's beloved pets


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Digs- No one is offended because you sound like a troll nut. Keep talking thought it is good. You prove my point regarding the internet.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Google German Shepherd Breed clubs in your State. Get in touch with some breeders of ASL and you should be able to get an ASL as you desire. Enjoy, love and train your dog! Good luck!


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

" If the OP wanted a true home protector, they'd be better off looking into a breed such as the *Cane Corso*."

^Hideously ugly breed^

My WGSL bitch has removed unknown men, sounder of wild hogs, even a bear from the yard. Thats protective enough for me.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

(and of course she was held back from biting the men and also the bear, but the hogs were removed on her own)


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

SkyBox said:


> Beginning my homework now, but there are so many breeders and sites out there to wade through. I would appreciate any recommendations for quality breeders In Ohio or nearby states. It would be nice to narrow it down to a handful and go from there.
> 
> I have done training with my last dog at "Whited k9" semi-local and they seem to be a reputable breeder and importer. I'm going to take my time to find the best fit - in no hurry. Still not over the loss of my last dog.
> 
> Looking for a family and protection GSD. Not looking to show the dog or compete. I always thought the working lines were the purest of the breed with the best traits, but I've been reading that show lines could be a better fit for me.


I haven't read the rest of the thread. Going to assume people have it covered but I'll offer my two cents just in case.

This really depends on how you define "protection." If you mean formal protection training, then no I wouldn't consider a show line dog. If you mean you want a big, formidable looking dog, a show line will do just fine. Plenty of people hesitate to approach us or even just walk past, even when she's quietly walking or sitting at my side. Delivery people will back way off when they see her even if she's not barking. The general public sees "German Shepherd" and will probably think twice about approaching you. Of course, a good working line dog will do the same.

So it depends on what you really want. An excellent family pet can be found in show lines, and even if you're not competing with or showing the dog, there's value in looking for a pet from among those lines. In an ideal situation, the breeder is taking care to produce stable dogs with good temperaments - dogs that can go into a show situation and do their thing amid crowds and noises and throngs of the public eager to meet one of the most popular breeds in the country. Those same traits translate into a solid family pet. They do tend to be lower drive, though I would caution that my show line dog still needs a good deal of engagement and exercise; she's an opinionated smart aleck who wants me to work or play with her. She isn't a potato. But for an active family, a dog like her would be ideal. She's calm and solid enough to handle sick days or work time (my husband works from home), and she's energetic and happy to get up and go as soon as you ask, "Hey, do you want to _____?" I do Nosework with her because we both enjoy it, but she'd likely be just as happy if (for example) I had an active teenager who wanted a good hiking companion.

There's also no reason why a good working line dog, well matched to you, couldn't do those things. So it really comes down to deciding what you want, learning about the differences between lines (and they're nuanced), and choosing what works best for you.

My advice would be to find a breed club and an IPO club, go to some dog shows, go to some IPO trials, and watch dogs. Meet dogs. Talk to their owners. Meet some breeders. Find out who seems to be breeding dogs you like. What's a great match for you might not be for someone else, so try as much as you can to get to know the programs face to face before deciding.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

WDC IS IN Grove City Ohio in a couple weeks. 100 entries so there will be lots of working line dogs and breeders.


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## SkyBox (Jul 15, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> WDC IS IN Grove City Ohio in a couple weeks. 100 entries so there will be lots of working line dogs and breeders.


That's a far drive for me. Was considering checking out the OG BUCKEYE SCHUTZHUND CLUBTRIAL on 5.20. Probably a smaller competition/gathering though.
Thanks


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Where in OH are you located?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

castlemaid said:


> *asl bashing will stop now!*
> 
> i've seen plenty of nervy dogs from all lines, and there are plenty of fine dogs from all lines. It depends on what the person likes and wants.
> 
> Reading the op's first few posts, i get the impression that they are looking for a west german show line with akc registration.


thank you


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

wolfstraum said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> > Well this has been my very small experience - being happy with my asl -who is not untrainable and a bag of shaking nerves -and one thing is I am certainly not lucky. So luck there has nothing to do with it.
> ...


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

I've never had an ASL, but my WGSL has been a wonderful companion--stable, smart, active, and healthy (so far at age 3). I also have a white shepherd who is smart, healthy, and fun to be around. In the past, I had a working line GSD that I still miss and think about often. I would probably choose a working line dog if I was serious about participating in a protection sport. Whatever "flavor" of GSD you choose, people will be afraid of it, workmen will not want to come inside your house, and pedestrians will cross the street to avoid you.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

The cowboys girl - Yes a excellent point training is also a huge factor. I have seen the dulled eyelook and thought training or genetics could be both one or the other. I have seen how some dogs are trained and can see why they dull look may happen. I went to a very reputable excellent positive trainer for our foundation with max and training it did not dampen max spirit and now i have passed that down to Luna.

Castlemaid said it best there are great dogs in every line and not so great. Even if they all the stars line up for there to be great sometimes it just does not happen. Not one is perfect. Mine are not but they are perfect for me. 

Lol love those boys! Max -did that so far once on our first nosework class outside Marked on the building wall near a hide outside yikes we contaminated the scene. 

We are not pros but we sure are learning. He has some spunk I like spunk. A few videos multitasking not the easiest to take all the time out. Calling over Max ,asl, and Luna, wgsl over on a trail- which is flooded with distractions - in slow motion!!! Feel like I had to add Recall in regular time and Max and Luna finding cameron in the woods. I love how max changed snapped his head and changed direction in a blink of an eye and found cameron. I want to get some tracking videos Luna’s nose does not pop up off a trail when she catches a scent of something- my sweet Luna becomes a beast. Max Gotten much better from this video longer and just better. 
https://instagram.com/p/BhtfCtPFuyt/
https://instagram.com/p/BSR4Hrlleki/
https://instagram.com/p/BcLblOpnnJD/
https://instagram.com/p/BDvbNH3DEJR/
https://instagram.com/p/BLv5q-0lPYt/


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## SkyBox (Jul 15, 2014)

Xeph said:


> Where in OH are you located?


Akron/Canton area. About 2.5 hours from grove city...


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

wolfstraum said:


> I made no comment about your specific dog....I was citing my own personal observations and knowledge of specific kennels you recommended....
> 
> the ASLs I see doing OB have less energy and drive than the Corgi's and the Shelties in the same classes....they amble in recalls, they lag in heeling, they fail to sit at halts....they still get CDX and even UDs...they just don't have the desire or enthusiasm in even simple obedience work...I have done training at an AKC oriented club for about 18 years now....I train with an AKC judge ....and every pup I place locally goes there if possible....the instructors are the ones who tell me these things as well....
> 
> Lee


This is what I meant to quote when I said I see dogs with no desire or enthusiasm because the training and motivation by their handlers sucks.

I wonder: working line people often train schutzhund, and my impression is that the obedience is trained in drive and it's very flashy.

american showline people aren't training Schh--are they more likely to have just trained with some of the old school AKC folks. I've trained with some of them and just....meh. 

I've trained my dog by myself and with online Michael Ellis classes and I'm very happy with his obedience, engagement and enthusiasm. Most of the other dogs I see are not anything I look up to. There is a lady who has competed a lot, she is a breeder and her dogs usually smoke everybody including me. But they also creep into their downs looking whipped. When I look at trial pics they are walking along beside her looking around like they'd rather be anywhere else. Meh. No thanks. Sometimes her scores are better than mine because I still struggle with some crooked sits because my dog has a super long body and I made some mistakes in his foundation that I am still trying to fix. So we usually lose a few points on straightness and she doesn't. But I am happier with my dog. He tries hard and he is happy and his mistakes are really my mistakes because he really does me proud on anything I've taught him properly.


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## Breaker's mom (May 27, 2008)

The overall message I get from this thread is seeking a pup for a series of specific purposes is difficult.

I have, for the first time in my life been spending a lot of time training with a reactive pup. 

I have always just "farm trained" my dogs. I am really enjoying my travels with him and learning a lot. So is he. That said, I suspect he will never be at a point where he can compete. I would love to get a dog next spring that I can compete with in obedience and do some tracking with. I was going to ask you guys what you thought regarding the lines for this particular path...but this thread provides the answer. Any might work and any might not!


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Breaker's mom said:


> The overall message I get from this thread is seeking a pup for a series of specific purposes is difficult.
> 
> I have, for the first time in my life been spending a lot of time training with a reactive pup.
> 
> I have always just "farm trained" my dogs. I am really enjoying my travels with him and learning a lot. So is he. That said, I suspect he will never be at a point where he can compete. I would love to get a dog next spring that I can compete with in obedience and do some tracking with. I was going to ask you guys what you thought regarding the lines for this particular path...but this thread provides the answer. Any might work and any might not!


If you want a dog to do obedience and tracking, buy from a breeder who is doing obedience and tracking with the dogs. I didn't know I wanted a dog to do obedience and tracking but we are hooked---especially the tracking. My dog passionately loves it and he's good at it. My dog's parents and a bunch of other dogs from this breeder are doing well in tracking, obedience and nosework.

You don't know the dogs can do it unless they are doing it. Or, go watch a tracking test and meet the people there tracking GSDs, there are always a couple. Ask them where their dogs came from.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

SkyBox said:


> Akron/Canton area. About 2.5 hours from grove city...


I'm in the Akron area once a week for herding lessons, so you aren't very far from me (I'm in PA)


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