# Flirt Pole she wont let go till I get the knife



## Micky (Jan 1, 2011)

Stella now 8 month has learned how to drop things and most of the time there is no problem and she does what she has been told. Of late there is a slight problem with the Flirt Pole, we have an old glove attached to it and under no circumstances does she let go, once she has the glove it is hers for ever. I have tried to ignor her and walk away, she will sit there for hours when I get back ou she takes the glove. I have tried to redirect she has none of it, I have tried to get her fav tread she doesn't let go, the only thing which works is to take cut the glove from the pole, take the pole and leave her there, then she will come in and leave the glove outside looking at me kinda, what the **** did you do.
Here is my ? how do I make her drop the glove any ideas. Thanks


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

I think it sounds like she thinks the glove is hers and not yours. So teach her it is your glove and you are letting her play with it so when done. Have her out and then tell her all done or finished and walk away with the flirt pole with glove on it.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Sounds like she simply needs to be taught the out command. Starting with a lower value resource until she understands what the command means, then gradually moving up to higher value ones like the glove.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

szariksdad said:


> I think it sounds like she thinks the glove is hers and not yours. So teach her it is your glove and you are letting her play with it so when done. Have her out and then tell her all done or finished and walk away with the flirt pole with glove on it.


This whole "all the toys are mine" concept that so many people get hung up on really has very little to do with this, or anything else, honestly.

But beyond that, the attitude described of "it's mine and you can't have it since you didn't out" will just make the dog less likely to out and more likely to hang on because everytime she lets go she is punished, not rewarded.

If one always equates letting go with the end of the game, then of course the dog isn't going to let go. Why would she? It is in her best interest not to because when she does it means all the fun goes away. Dogs learn much better when we show them that the things we want them to do bring reinforcement in the form of getting things they like. Certainly not in the form of removing things they like.

Right now she is reinforced for keeping the toy. Nothing good happens when she lets go. And having the toy in her possession sure beats having no toy at all, or ending the game. 

Easiest way to teach an out is to make it GOOD for the dog to out. Not bad by ending the game. Trade for a higher value item, so the dog learns giving up what she has is an opportunity to get something even better in order to establish the understanding of what "out" means and the dog seeing it's a good thing to do. Then move onto showing her that letting go brings the prey alive again, making the game resume and things even more fun. Lock up the toy so there is no reinforcement and no fun in her holding on, and wait her out. When she lets go, play again. Not the opposite.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Just wanted to highlight the following to make sure people just see this is another TRAINING issue that we can fix. Not a huge 'ALPHA DOG BOSS CHALLENGING ME OH MY GOSH' type thing 



> Easiest way to teach an out is to make it GOOD for the dog to out. Not bad by ending the game. Trade for a higher value item, so the dog learns giving up what she has is an opportunity to get something even better in order to establish the understanding of what "out" means and the dog seeing it's a good thing to do. Then move onto showing her that letting go brings the prey alive again, making the game resume and things even more fun. Lock up the toy so there is no reinforcement and no fun in her holding on, and wait her out. When she lets go, play again. Not the opposite.


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## Micky (Jan 1, 2011)

Hi I may be did not make the post very clear,...Stella does know the Aus comand and is really great at dropping all sorts of things that she should not have or things that we are playing with like her ball or stuffies so Aus is not the problem. When we play flirt pole she does drop the glove and the games continues really well, she just gets to a point when she will not drop the glove no matter what, all the Ausing in the world will not work, neither does her favourite treat, cheese:laugh:, she simply will not let go, so I then leave her with glove in mouth, pole on ground and walk away, she will sit and wait eventually drop the glove until I return to try to continue playing, that is when the glove is cut from the pole and game ends:shocked: So maybe she has decided in her own way when the game is done. But thanks for the replies I guess I will just have to keep buying rope for the pole!!


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## DolphinGirl (Nov 5, 2010)

I agree with the others on training Aus, which you stated she knows. Have you tried to pick her up to see if she'll drop it? One hand on the back of the collar and the other wrap around and pick her up by the belly. Most will drop the item once lifted.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Micky said:


> When we play flirt pole she does drop the glove and the games continues really well, she just gets to a point when she will not drop the glove no matter what, all the Ausing in the world will not work, neither does her favourite treat, cheese:laugh:, she simply will not let go


Sounds like it could be one of two things.

1. She is finished and that is her way of telling you.

2. You don't let HER win often enough and she has decided to take matters into her own hands.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Micky said:


> Hi I may be did not make the post very clear,...Stella does know the Aus comand and is really great at dropping all sorts of things that she should not have or things that we are playing with like her ball or stuffies so Aus is not the problem. When we play flirt pole she does drop the glove and the games continues really well, she just gets to a point when she will not drop the glove no matter what, all the Ausing in the world will not work, neither does her favourite treat, cheese:laugh:, she simply will not let go, so I then leave her with glove in mouth, pole on ground and walk away, she will sit and wait eventually drop the glove until I return to try to continue playing, that is when the glove is cut from the pole and game ends:shocked: So maybe she has decided in her own way when the game is done. But thanks for the replies I guess I will just have to keep buying rope for the pole!!


Stop using the glove. You are reinforcing bad behavior. Try something else on the flirt pole or stop playing with it.

Bison went through this phase too with the squirrel that comes with the pole. We had to put it up for a few months because what was happening is just as Chris described. He learned that if I let go, the game ends. 

When I re-introduced the flirt pole, I let him carry the toy inside and hold it for a bit. Then did just like Chris described. Completely ignore the squirrel and get out one of his favorite treats, like Frosty Paws. Once he is engaged in the treat, I pick up the pole and squirrel quietly and put it in the closet.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

If she knows Aus and can do it with any other object in her mouth and won't with the glove, then she needs a correction. Choker or pinch.


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## Micky (Jan 1, 2011)

thanks all for the tips, have removed the glove and put a ball on the pole much better woohoo, she lets it go and life is great, there must have been somnething about the glove  anyhow now that the glove is removed she doesn't care at all for it... happy days


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Micky said:


> thanks all for the tips, have removed the glove and put a ball on the pole much better woohoo, she lets it go and life is great, there must have been somnething about the glove  anyhow now that the glove is removed she doesn't care at all for it... happy days


Awesome! I am glad that worked out for you.


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## TitonsDad (Nov 9, 2009)

This is a huge 'ALPHA DOG BOSS CHALLENGING ME OH MY GOSH' type thing. 

Gonna take a lot of work... I'm kidding of course. I just had to be the one says it at least once in this thread. :rofl:

But yes, it is now time to train the "out" or "aus" command. Whichever you prefer. I bet if you tried using some high quality food treats like Vienna sausage as a replacement for the glove when teaching "out/aus", you'll have it down pat in no time at all. That is, if the puppy has high food drive. 

-E


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Glad you found a solution.

Only thing that gets me is that you can't get her to out on the glove so you just remove the glove. I just don't feel like you are correcting the issue head on.

But again you solved it and you are happy and that is good.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Ace952 said:


> Glad you found a solution.
> 
> Only thing that gets me is that you can't get her to out on the glove so you just remove the glove. I just don't feel like you are correcting the issue head on.
> 
> But again you solved it and you are happy and that is good.


 
If the issue is only with that one item is it really an issue? I have had some toys with my dogs that they just completely obsess over. Why would I continue to fight with them about that toy when I can just remove it and life is happy? (Added Example) I bought Grizzly one of those "no stuffing" toys. He obsessed so much about the squeeker in the tail that he was swallowing the tail. I took had to hold his jaw to get it out of his mouth before he choaked on it. I tried cutting off the tail and giving it back to him the next day and he got obsessive with it again. Why would I continue to correct him and fuss over him with the toy when I can just put it away and give him his Snoopy to play with. Maybe in another 6 months he can handle that toy without overloading.

I think it would be very different if this issue was with more than one item.
JMO


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## MicheleMarie (Mar 29, 2011)

TitonsDad said:


> This is a huge 'ALPHA DOG BOSS CHALLENGING ME OH MY GOSH' type thing.
> 
> Gonna take a lot of work... I'm kidding of course. I just had to be the one says it at least once in this thread. :rofl:
> 
> ...



:laugh:
i just started the aus command and the first time it took 9 minutes for the puppy to let go the first time!!


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Ruthie said:


> If the issue is only with that one item is it really an issue? I have had some toys with my dogs that they just completely obsess over. Why would I continue to fight with them about that toy when I can just remove it and life is happy? (Added Example) I bought Grizzly one of those "no stuffing" toys. He obsessed so much about the squeeker in the tail that he was swallowing the tail. I took had to hold his jaw to get it out of his mouth before he choaked on it. I tried cutting off the tail and giving it back to him the next day and he got obsessive with it again. Why would I continue to correct him and fuss over him with the toy when I can just put it away and give him his Snoopy to play with. Maybe in another 6 months he can handle that toy without overloading.
> 
> I think it would be very different if this issue was with more than one item.
> JMO


I guess I don't have one of those dogs obsessed with a item. I have 2 and they aren't obsessed with anything. if it was 1 item, we would work on that 1 item. For me and training (personal protection & Sch) I feel they need to release anything i tell them to. When I say "Pust" they gotta give it up, I don't care what it is.

As long as the OP is happy then for them that is all that matters.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

I am not saying that the dog shouldn't out every toy. That is exactly why I would take it away. Why set the dog up to fail if you know that they are so obsessed that they aren't going to out with out major corrections, especially with a young dog. It will just create negative associations with the "out" command.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Ruthie said:


> I am not saying that the dog shouldn't out every toy. That is exactly why I would take it away. Why set the dog up to fail if you know that they are so obsessed that they aren't going to out with out major corrections, especially with a young dog. It will just create negative associations with the "out" command.


I will use a ball as an example. You have a dog that has an extreme ball drive. He/she still needs to out when I say out. It's not like you take it and never get it back. You take it to show them that they can get it back once they "out".

My dog Jax will sometimes refuse to out on a ball despite knowing the command. I would then correct him. As soon as he would out (i praise him like crazy)...I would throw the ball and yell "aport" Teaching him that outing is a godo thing in that he can play longer.

When he outs he gets it right back. Now Jax realizes this. I only need to say "pust" once and the ball comes out and he sits and waits for me to throw and I do it immediately. When we are done he gets to keep it until he is tired of it.

I just see the "out" command the same as the "no" command. They gotta know what it means and do it if I say it.

Now that is just my dog and I know every dog is different...

FWIW


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

I do understand what you are saying and I completely agree with you, but I don't think it is the same concept. 

Using your example it would be like if you had a ball with bumpies or a smooth ball. For some reason your dog won't out a ball with bumpies, you can correct him and he will eventually out, but each time you work with the ball with bumpies you have to work on the "out" command. Now the same dog will out automatically, no problems with the smooth ball. Which ball are you going to train with?

Are you going to train with the bumpy ball anyway because you want to "show him who's boss" and not be able to work on other things until you whip him into submission, or are you going to train with the smooth ball and move on?


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

I hate hypothetical questions like that as it is hard not being in the situation first hand. Also ball surface is different from a totally different item as the OP had a issue with a glove and no other object. Comparing apples & oranges.

I wouldn't buy 2 balls of different surfaces. I would just buy 2 balls of the same surface. I expect the dog to out on it. If we lost the balls and I bought 2 more that had a different surface, my expectation wouldn't be different. Gotta out.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Ace952 said:


> I hate hypothetical questions like that as it is hard not being in the situation first hand. Also ball surface is different from a totally different item as the OP had a issue with a glove and no other object. Comparing apples & oranges.
> 
> I wouldn't buy 2 balls of different surfaces. I would just buy 2 balls of the same surface. I expect the dog to out on it. If we lost the balls and I bought 2 more that had a different surface, my expectation wouldn't be different. Gotta out.


:smirk: How is a flirt pole with different materials different so different than balls with different surfaces. LOL!

Anyway, this is really isn't about the toy or what example, it is a different core philosophy. It sounds like you are saying that your dog must out anything no matter what it takes. I assume that you are saying would continue to correct and correct and correct over an object that doesn't even tie into training. (Meaning, not a tug, ball, or sleeve)

My philosopy is that I am only going to put up a fight with my dog if it is for a reason. So, yeah, I would absolutely put away a toy to prevent unnecessary fights... especially with a puppy.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Ruthie said:


> :smirk: How is a flirt pole with different materials different so different than balls with different surfaces. LOL!
> 
> Anyway, this is really isn't about the toy or what example, it is a different core philosophy. It sounds like you are saying that your dog must out anything no matter what it takes. I assume that you are saying would continue to correct and correct and correct over an object that doesn't even tie into training. (Meaning, not a tug, ball, or sleeve)
> 
> My philosopy is that I am only going to put up a fight with my dog if it is for a reason. So, yeah, I would absolutely put away a toy to prevent unnecessary fights... especially with a puppy.


I make my won flirt pole and use either a few white socks, leather rag and at times tie a tug to it. My dog doesn't have a issue with anything that's on it. 

Yes that is my philosophy. After 11 months I haven't had any issues with this. He outs on whatever I tell him to out on, even his favorite toy. Again it is all about how serious it is to you. To me it is but to others it isn't, no big thing.

I certainly understand your philosophy. 

It is all about what you are training for as well as the dog itself and what kind of dog you have.


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