# Working line as Family Dog



## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

I've read a lot of comments lately in regards to working line GSDs being for "more experienced" homes, or people saying they didn't think they could handle a working line, so they went with a showline, that working lines are "crazy" or "super hyper" or "biting machines"....This blog/article is an oldie, but a goodie, and addresses some of the fears I've read and heard, as well as what a good working line breeder is working towards. 

*Not a showline vs working line debate*, only stating that both can make excellent family pets, and working lines don't HAVE to be in SchH, protection, KNPV, SAR, LE, military etc... To be fulfilled and happy, nor do they need some world class handler to own them to "handle" them. I'm sure many have read this already, just thought I'd post it because of some of the fear/intimidation I've seen from pet people considering working lines. If I wouldn't recommend a *well bred* GSD to someone, I probably wouldn't recommend a dog at all.


Working German Shepherds as Pets and Companions


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

I thought it was a pretty good article, I posted that on my FB page a little while ago


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

DaniFani said:


> If I wouldn't recommend a *well bred* GSD to someone, I probably wouldn't recommend a dog at all.


I'm calling hogwash on that statement.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

To a certain extent the argument is there because of a level of elitism. Oh this dog needs a strong experienced handler because otherwise it would level your house. This of course implies the person saying it is exactly that. Between common sense management and training the pup to be calm and providing mental stim and exercise it isnt that bad.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

I've got a 9 month old working line puppy in a pet home and he's been a breeze so far. Still pretty young, but I feel I have a pretty good grasp on his temperament. 

I think anyone with the basics on how to raise and train a puppy would be able to handle him. I actually found him easier than previous dogs at his age. 

A well bred and balanced dog, that is eager and quick to learn, and bonds with their family should be ideal for the family situation.


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## Sp00ks (Nov 8, 2013)

Good read.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Boo my work blocked the article.. must mean something


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

I have *East European line GSD*. They potentially can be great family pets, they love small children, even unknown ones, terribly loyal, they are silent dogs (they don't bark much), but they also need a lot of exercise. They are free of a terrible inherited desease in GSD - hip displacement. Czech and DDR Eastern lines were certified by German experts.

DDR East German Shepherd


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

David Taggart said:


> I have *East European line GSD*. They potentially can be great family pets, they love small children, even unknown ones, terribly loyal, they are silent dogs (they don't bark much), but they also need a lot of exercise. They are free of a terrible inherited desease in GSD - hip displacement. Czech and DDR Eastern lines were certified by German experts.
> 
> DDR East German Shepherd


DDR dogs are not free of HD. You put out so much incorrect information in your posts, I don't even know where to begin.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

David Taggart said:


> Czech and DDR Eastern lines were certified by German experts.


Certified, how?
Czech dogs are not free of HD, either. 
What I am told is that they can have DM and not-so-great teeth.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

David Taggart said:


> I have *East European line GSD*. They potentially can be great family pets, they love small children, even unknown ones, terribly loyal, they are silent dogs (they don't bark much), but they also need a lot of exercise. They are free of a terrible inherited desease in GSD - hip displacement. Czech and DDR Eastern lines were certified by German experts.


Where on God's green earth do you get your information from?? What certification are you even talking about? And Eastern lines absolutely do still get HD. 

Your posts need to come with a disclaimer. At least this time the stuff you're posting isn't dangerous, it's just wrong.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

David Taggart said:


> Czech and DDR Eastern lines were *certified by German experts.*
> http://www.vomhaussaffore.com/


How is that? Until the wall came down in the 1989, it was all controlled by Russia.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

> all controlled by Russia


But I have heard that Mr Putin and Mrs Merkel are lovers. They always had these secret meetings.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> How is that? Until the wall came down in the 1989, it was all controlled by Russia.


In Russia...you don't get HD, HD gets you...

But in regards to the original post...problem with discussing this on this forum is that even those on this forum that might consider themselves more "pet people" do more and expect a higher level of obedience from their dog than the average American/Canadian pet owner. They tend to give their dogs more exercise and generally understand their needs better than the average people out there.

I know my boy used to get pretty crazy if we had a string of bad weather where walks/play time weren't possible. We also lived in a smallish apartment so in home excersice wasn't as available either. Now with a larger house and a yard...he's easily worn out. I can also imagine that if he was in the hands of someone less dedicated, it wouldn't be very pretty and there is a large chance he'd go back to the breeder or a shelter. It's not that he doesn't have an off switch...its that he does have a certain level of exercise/work that's required within a period of a few days. He's not the type of dog that can lay around for a week...


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

> DDR dogs are not free of HD. You put out so much incorrect information in your posts, I don't even know where to begin.


Probably, because you are unaware of new breeding programms Germany undertake today. *Eastern line is HP free*, that is the main reason to interbreed and to produce healthier lines.
Search German Shepherd Stud Dogs


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

David Taggart said:


> Probably, because you are unaware of new breeding programms Germany undertake today. *Eastern line is HP free*, that is the main reason to interbreed and to produce healthier lines.
> Search German Shepherd Stud Dogs


What? 

And What does a link for stud dogs have to do with anything you're trying to say?


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I agree that *most* working line dogs do make great family pets. However, I am currently caring for a bitch that is completely over the top and I would not recommend this particular dog to anyone but an expereinced handler.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

Pardon, I wanted to say *HD free*.


> And What does a link for stud dogs have to do with anything you're trying to say?


I want to advertise Eastern line for potential new owners in this particular Forum, because they are good family pets. Simply they have good genetics. I want to advertise Eastern line for American breeders as well.


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## Sprout (Apr 23, 2013)

DaniFani,

Back to your question.
My girls just over a year old now and from an amazing West German pedigree of working GSD's.

Sweet as the day is long without giving up her independence or desire to play, prey drive, protect etc. My 13 and 14 year old nieces are adored by her and my three smaller dogs never have had anything but a bond with her.

That being said her breeding shows when I work her on a small bite sleeve. And I do this for confidence and fun, not planning to have her in SCH etc. She has a wicked bite and loves to play fight. Obedience training and learning their roll is important from an early age in my opinion.

If you wanna have a look at her pedigree msg me.
I would not hesitate to say YES they make great house dogs but require attention for their active minds.


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## Waldi (Jun 14, 2013)

Lucy Dog said:


> I've got a 9 month old working line puppy in a pet home and he's been a breeze so far. Still pretty young, but I feel I have a pretty good grasp on his temperament.
> 
> I think anyone with the basics on how to raise and train a puppy would be able to handle him. I actually found him easier than previous dogs at his age.
> 
> A well bred and balanced dog, that is eager and quick to learn, and bonds with their family should be ideal for the family situation.


Agreed, I also have working line 13 month old puppy and she is great, yes there need more stimuli and love to "work", they are smart and willing to do anthing for interaction. No issue with damage to house, the only issues we had was toilet paper all over the house (2 months old), chew quietly subwoofer cable and nible on shoes of someone who came for visit.
All we do is to provide both physical and mental excercise everyday.


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## TexasCrane (Nov 13, 2013)

David Taggart said:


> Pardon, I wanted to say *HD free*.
> 
> I want to advertise Eastern line for potential new owners in this particular Forum, because they are good family pets. Simply they have good genetics. I want to advertise Eastern line for American breeders as well.


David,
Where are you located? You don't write like a native English speaker.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Sunflowers said:


> Certified, how?
> Czech dogs are not free of HD, either.
> What I am told is that they can have DM and not-so-great teeth.


My boy is Czech lines. Lost his brother to DM and he is 12 and his teeth are pretty well worn down to gone. However both had beautiful hips. Best hips she has ever see on a Shepherd according to my vet. 

from the article:

"Once a person has experienced a truly good German Shepherd from strong working lineage and good breeding, it is my opinion that you cannot go back to anything less"

Oh yes I can. I loved my working line boys but they were a handful. Even now at 12 Buddy is still very demanding. I've also got a show line girl. She is amazing. Going forward, when I rescue I'll be looking toward show line or whites.


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## GGb (Feb 4, 2014)

I had my dog for 15 years till he finally passed away last month. I only knew him as a German Shepherd and nothing else. It never occur to me to look up more info on him until he passed away. My father had got him back in 1999. After some research I found out he was a working line GS. I would describe my dog as protective, active, loyal and playful. From the time he was a puppy till the age of 12 he would be running all over the yard. I would do things with him like wrestle (lol), take him for jogs and he was always up for the challenge. My nephews ages 4-7 would come over and play with him, no issues. When strangers approached at night he would bark. He was a great dog in every aspect.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

*German Shepherds shed a lot and are too much work...*

As luck would have it...I just got a text for another owner surrender WL sable puppy needing a home from our local rescue. We're starting to see more and more WL GSDs in the shelters. On our local FB pet page there's a daily parade of dogs of all breeds "don't have time", "sudden alleries", "too rough with the kids" and lot of these are just lab mixes with some energy.

Admittedly I'm leaning to a cynical side here but maybe it would be a good thing for the *general* public to think working lines are too much dog....because for a lot of people anything with fur, four paws and a mind of it's own is too much.

IF someone asks what kind of dogs I like it's beagles or bassetts depending on how much energy they (the people) have.....:crazy:


(btw congrats on the new puppy!!! So jealous, I've seen the pics and some videos you posted LOVE him.  )




DaniFani said:


> <snipped>
> 
> *Not a showline vs working line debate*, only stating that both can make excellent family pets, and working lines don't HAVE to be in SchH, protection, KNPV, SAR, LE, military etc... To be fulfilled and happy, nor do they need some world class handler to own them to "handle" them. I'm sure many have read this already, just thought I'd post it because of some of the fear/intimidation I've seen from pet people considering working lines. If I wouldn't recommend a *well bred* GSD to someone, I probably wouldn't recommend a dog at all.
> 
> ...


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## Eiros (Jun 30, 2011)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> As luck would have it...I just got a text for another owner surrender WL sable puppy needing a home from our local rescue. We're starting to see more and more WL GSDs in the shelters...


That's how I got my sable pup, owner surrender on Craigslist. I wonder if the "rarer" and unique look of some of the WL colors are becoming more appealing to backyard breeders because they can try and sell them for more, or lend credibility to their operation. Not saying all rescue WL dogs are byb, but I'd imagine that people who do their research and buy a pricey pup from a truly reputable breeder are less likely to just rehome them when they get too energetic.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

David Taggart said:


> I have *East European line GSD*. They potentially can be great family pets, they love small children, even unknown ones, terribly loyal, they are silent dogs (they don't bark much), but they also need a lot of exercise. They are free of a terrible inherited desease in GSD - hip displacement. Czech and DDR Eastern lines were certified by German experts.
> 
> DDR East German Shepherd


No not free of HD. Wrong.

DDR dogs bark the same as any other type...some more, some less.

I am not sure if you are using a translator that skews your posts into misinformation or you really just are limited in correct information.

Lee


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

More people are being exposed to WLs and don't do the research. More BYBs are pushing them out now a days. They market the WLs as being healthier, never having hip dysplasia (uggh just saw David Taggert's comment to boot, see.....), having great grand parents with SchH titles and therefore better for protection. Naturally they don't educate the buyers about training or exercise because they don't know themselves and/or don't care, they just want to make money off the puppies.

I personally know a 'breeder' locally (use that term loosely of course) who is crossing UKC BYB pet line females with his working line male. 

It's bad enough when the BYBs are breeding pet lines only, now they are messing with the WLs and it's really bad news. 

I just got off the phone with my friend about the latest WL rescue and they can be hard to place too. Serious WL people usually want to get a pup from a good breeder and start the foundation training to compete. The fuzzy pink slipper crowd that wants a Golden with a GSD coat aren't always a good fit because they don't want to invest the time and energy into training and exercise needed. 

So they can be hard to place...not impossible...but finding the right family is harder.



Eiros said:


> That's how I got my sable pup, owner surrender on Craigslist. I wonder if the "rarer" and unique look of some of the WL colors are becoming more appealing to backyard breeders because they can try and sell them for more, or lend credibility to their operation. Not saying all rescue WL dogs are byb, but I'd imagine that people who do their research and buy a pricey pup from a truly reputable breeder are less likely to just rehome them when they get too energetic.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I know we like to jump on BYB for this, but it happens to the best most reputable breeders as well. They sell a dog to someone that does their research, thinks they want a WL, and don’t realize what they get themselves into. I’ve seen a lot of returned dogs because a person had plans to work the dog in Schutzhund, or agility, or some other dog sport and then either something came up in life or they actually got into the sport and realized how much time it takes and just give up. They let obedience or manners slip for a little bit (usually within the first few months) and then they end up with a poorly trained, no manners, WL GSD that runs the house.

And no…it’s not about having an off-switch. Even dogs with an off-switch need to do something with themselves at least once in a while.

Too many times I’ve spoken to some very good breeder friends who say that someone is interested in Schutzhund or some other sport, so they end up giving them a puppy that is in the upper half of drive in the litter and then the person ends up not doing it and not knowing what to do with the dog. Many of them will admit that 95% of their dogs go to “pet homes.” Pet homes that might dabble in a sport, but not really compete or train in the way that many of us do (at least once a week). Sometimes, placing those higher drive dogs is very very difficult because you just don’t know people. I know someone that just had seven pups, at least five have gone to homes where the breeder has known the people for years through various clubs. How often does that happen? Probably very rarely.

I just think about all the things I do with my dog…training 2 or 3 times a week, trialing certain weekends. If I had a kid, that would quickly get cut down because the kid is going to need to be going to things throughout the week, money will need to be spent on that rather than dog training.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> .
> 
> I just got off the phone with my friend about the latest WL rescue and they can be hard to place too. Serious WL people usually want to get a pup from a good breeder and start the foundation training to compete. The fuzzy pink slipper crowd that wants a Golden with a GSD coat aren't always a good fit because they don't want to invest the time and energy into training and exercise needed.
> 
> So they can be hard to place...not impossible...but finding the right family is harder.


That's assuming they even make it out of the shelter and into a rescue. Many shelters look at them, say dangerous dog, rescue only. They won't attempt to place a dog like that because they just get brought back. So many I see posted daily being euthanized because there are just not enough homes. Its not limited to WL Shepherds or even just Shepherds but still it breaks my heart seeing all these beautiful shepherds with RIP next to their name.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

OK but that's shoving some angels on a head of pin....

The Core drivers: You take misinformation *see David Taggert's post* you mix in lack of research, BYBs who push that misinformation and the fact the majority of the pet owning public are not dog nerds (like most of us on this site are) and you've got problems.

Truly reputable breeders know what they are breeding, screen buyers, offer support and will take a pup back if it does not work out with the family. One of the local BYBs I was talking to sells his pups for around $300-$400. He has people driving from out of state to see his puppies and they aren't even OFA'd. His females come from a long line of CKC dogs with nothing but names on the pedigree, no kennel titles or work. A reputable breeder is going to charge more and the clients who spend more will most likely be more invested in the puppy in more then just goals.....

So it follows that we're going to see far fewer WLs in shelters from reputable breeders (given that no one, no situation is ever perfect all the time) BUT looking at it from a macro perspective, yes BYBs (and who knows maybe puppy millers will/be are jumping on the WL band wagon) are a big part of the problem.




martemchik said:


> I know we like to jump on BYB for this, but it happens to the best most reputable breeders as well. They sell a dog to someone that does their research, thinks they want a WL, and don’t realize what they get themselves into. I’ve seen a lot of returned dogs because a person had plans to work the dog in Schutzhund, or agility, or some other dog sport and then either something came up in life or they actually got into the sport and realized how much time it takes and just give up. They let obedience or manners slip for a little bit (usually within the first few months) and then they end up with a poorly trained, no manners, WL GSD that runs the house.
> 
> And no…it’s not about having an off-switch. Even dogs with an off-switch need to do something with themselves at least once in a while.
> 
> ...


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

yup.... 



shepherdmom said:


> That's assuming they even make it out of the shelter and into a rescue. Many shelters look at them, say dangerous dog, rescue only. They won't attempt to place a dog like that because they just get brought back. So many I see posted daily being euthanized because there are just not enough homes. Its not limited to WL Shepherds or even just Shepherds but still it breaks my heart seeing all these beautiful shepherds with RIP next to their name.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Gwenhwyfair; said:


> I just got off the phone with my friend about the latest WL rescue and they can be hard to place too. Serious WL people usually want to get a pup from a good breeder and start the foundation training to compete. The fuzzy pink slipper crowd that wants a Golden with a GSD coat aren't always a good fit because they don't want to invest the time and energy into training and exercise needed.
> 
> So they can be hard to place...not impossible...but finding the right family is harder.



I just had a former teamate(she is still on the team, I not) that washed a well bred bought male and found a rescue for SAR. I think most rescues would be surprised to find SAR people open to a rescue. Most if us are not wealthy, and most if us do it for the love of doing it and don't care where the dog came from, as long as it works. 

Just saying. Not trying to derail the thread, but if a rescue gets a nice, young(under 2) WL dog, it would behoove them to get the word out to SAR agencies. 

Ok thread, back on track. 


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

The dog that is in rescue is a 7-8 month old male! 

Owners said he is working line and the rescue may be able to get his pedigree to confirm.....if you have anyone who may be interested I'll be happy to get contact information and PM it to you. 

My friend groomed him for the rescue and said he was sweet and enjoyed the attention.





gsdsar said:


> I just had a former teamate(she is still on the team, I not) that washed a well bred bought male and found a rescue for SAR. I think most rescues would be surprised to find SAR people open to a rescue. Most if us are not wealthy, and most if us do it for the love of doing it and don't care where the dog came from, as long as it works.
> 
> Just saying. Not trying to derail the thread, but if a rescue gets a nice, young(under 2) WL dog, it would behoove them to get the word out to SAR agencies.
> 
> ...


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I re-read your post more carefully and edited mine above accordingly. 

OR....can you give me contact info for SAR groups in the SE that may want to check this puppy out? I'll forward it on to the foster and rescue.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I re-read your post more carefully and edited mine above accordingly.
> 
> OR....can you give me contact info for SAR groups in the SE that may want to check this puppy out? I'll forward it on to the foster and rescue.



By SE, do you mean Arizona and the like? Let me see who I can find. I would also encourage them to look at some if the resources online for "testing" a SAR dogs potential. Hunt, ball, social, pushy, work ethic, so they have a better idea what to tell a potential handler. 


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

SE, South East. Dog is located near Atlanta at this time.

The foster isn't too dog savvy, unfortunately, and wouldn't be able to test.. BUT I'm going to find out more and see what I can do to help hook them up with a SAR knowledgeable person and/or information and see if we can help this pup with what you mention below. 



gsdsar said:


> By SE, do you mean Arizona and the like? Let me see who I can find. I would also encourage them to look at some if the resources online for "testing" a SAR dogs potential. Hunt, ball, social, pushy, work ethic, so they have a better idea what to tell a potential handler.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> SE, South East. Dog is located near Atlanta at this time.
> 
> The foster isn't too dog savvy, unfortunately, and wouldn't be able to test.. BUT I'm going to find out more and see what I can do to help hook them up with a SAR knowledgeable person and/or information and see if we can help this pup with what you mention below.



LOLOLOL!!! Sorry. That made me laugh. Never was good at map and compass!!!! 


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

*Gwenhwyfair, I PMed you a group that has taken rescues in the past.*


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## meldy (Oct 23, 2013)

Does this issue not also come down to breeders and producing balanced, sane, dogs? 
Is that were the BYB argument comes in...so it comes back to buyer beware and learning what you are buying and understanding what that entails. I don't think stupid buyers is something that anyone can stop and I seriously doubt any of those people are here. There will always be people who peddle puppies for money, don't care about the breed at all or what they put out there, and there will always be people with too much money to burn who want a certain looking dog. 

Admittedly Im new, limited experience but most of the WL dogs Ive 'heard' of that were unmanageable or had issues with regard to aggression were not the product of any decent breeding program. Their homes didn't seem to have much to do with it. Many of them had other GSD's already.

Additionally...on the topic of these dogs as rescue dogs...being poorly bred (or a product of a breeder who just didn't really care to do anything resembling thought into what they were producing) even produce dogs that can be rehomed and retrained?


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

There are lots of very good dogs.... that are horrible dogs for certain homes. Not anything against the dog or the person, just not a proper match.

Example: Some really nice dogs are not "dog-park" type dogs. Put them in a home where they are expected to welcome loose dogs belonging to friends/family coming and going, and they may be labeled "bad."


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

meldy said:


> Does this issue not also come down to breeders and producing balanced, sane, dogs?
> 
> Additionally...on the topic of these dogs as rescue dogs...being poorly bred (or a product of a breeder who just didn't really care to do anything resembling thought into what they were producing) even produce dogs that can be rehomed and retrained?


Yes.

And yes, even the ones that have issues can be rehomed and retrained. The problem, as a couple of people have already mentioned in this thread, is that there's a very limited subset of homes (and an even _more_ limited subset of foster homes) that have both the skills and willingness to do it.

Serious sport and working homes will not take a dog that can't do whatever they want to do with the animal. If your goal is to be able to achieve a very high level of performance in _anything,_ then you're going to seek out a dog with the maximum chance of success in that endeavor. There are hard limits to what you can accomplish with a dog that has shaky nerves and/or physical structure (see also: why I will be buying my next puppy from a performance breeder).

The best bet for a lot of working-breed rescue dogs is casual sport homes and/or active, dedicated, knowledgeable pet homes. You want owners who know and care enough to give an appropriate, structured outlet to the dog's intelligence, drive, and energy, but who are not so competition-oriented that they are going to be seriously disappointed if the dog can't rock high scores after two years of intensive training.

Those homes are out there, and they can do fantastic things with project dogs. But there aren't that many of them and it's a rare, lucky dog who wins that life lottery.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

As usual, Merciel nails it, most eloquently.  

(p.s. got a nasty bite from a WL/BYB CKC Pet line dog this past summer...while he was on leash, rescue too, new owner couldn't handle him at all)


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

A SAR person not good with map and compass?  

Thanks for popping in with your comments as well! Got Mary's PM and I'll see what we can do from here. 

Now back to the regularly scheduled topic. 



gsdsar said:


> LOLOLOL!!! Sorry. That made me laugh. Never was good at map and compass!!!!
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Gwen, I laughed at that too. Not sure a SAR person should admit to that. :rofl:


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

The question whether or not to licence the breed didn't lose its actuality, more and more people don't recognise GSD as a working class dog and want to raise him like a cactus in a pot, for their children to ride him, and the strangers to hug him. The trouble is not the dog, but people. If you tell the owner that hugging means agression in doggy language, and that was the only reason why his daughter was bitten - that person would raise his brow in disbelief. People are driven by their own ideas, they don't read anything - that is where the trouble starts. In Europe you would be simply rejected as a potential owner of a certain breed if you fail to answer certain questions about the puppy breed you intend to get at exam:Dog Control - Department of the Environment, Community & Local Government. You cannot have GSD if you don't have much time, if you are not physically fit, if you like alcohol and like to have big parties in the garden too often, if you are an argumentative, mentally unstable person, and especially - if you have a conflict in your family or about to divorse. Seems, the issue is getting tougher with time, no blame on the dog, only on the owner:Dog owners face written and practical tests - The Local, 
The majority of working line GSD can potentially be great family pets. All depends who you are.


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## meldy (Oct 23, 2013)

David Taggart said:


> The question whether or not to licence the breed didn't lose its actuality, more and more people don't recognise GSD as a working class dog and want to raise him like a cactus in a pot, for their children to ride him, and the strangers to hug him. The trouble is not the dog, but people. If you tell the owner that hugging means agression in doggy language, and that was the only reason why his daughter was bitten - that person would raise his brow in disbelief. People are driven by their own ideas, they don't read anything - that is where the trouble starts. In Europe you would be simply rejected as a potential owner of a certain breed if you fail to answer certain questions about the puppy breed you intend to get at exam:Dog Control - Department of the Environment, Community & Local Government. You cannot have GSD if you don't have much time, if you are not physically fit, if you like alcohol and like to have big parties in the garden too often, if you are an argumentative, mentally unstable person, and especially - if you have a conflict in your family or about to divorse. Seems, the issue is getting tougher with time, no blame on the dog, only on the owner:Dog owners face written and practical tests - The Local,
> The majority of working line GSD can potentially be great family pets. All depends who you are.


 
Should not a lot of these issues be weeded out by good breeders? I hate to put the responsibility on the breeders out there but I was picky as all **** about the buyers I sold to when I was breeding horses.

As a buyer I certainly noticed the difference with WL breeders. The good breeders wanted to know about me, what I was looking for and why. WHY was the big question (and the one that most impressed me as stupid as it sounds)...the bad breeders just offered a price and a date and possibly told me how amazing the cousins-sisters-grandsire twice removed was back in Germany and listed that dogs titles. And then they usually asked silly things like what colour/size/sex I was looking for. (literally these were the things I have been offered by people producing registered WL dogs)

It seems to me the issue still stems from a lack of breeder responsibility or caring. If we assume that temperament is the main cause of unmanageability and aggression issues and it really seems to be just based on answers I got in my other thread about WL dogs that don't 'work'

It's something that cant really be resolved. There will always be crappy breeders willing to sell dogs to people who don't care what they are buying they just want a big 'police dog' to impress their friends. Or that's my naïve and brand new soon-to-be-owner take on the whole process.

I could have purchased a dozen puppies by now from people who would happily have sold me anything I asked for. Im just smart enough to know I don't know what to ask for....yet. Gotta wonder about the people buying those dogs.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

> It seems to me the issue still stems from a lack of breeder responsibility or caring. If we assume that temperament is the main cause of unmanageability and aggression issues and it really seems to be just based on answers I got in my other thread about WL dogs that don't 'work'


Please, it is not true. First of all - a good puppy is costly, a good breeder would ask you not less than $1.500 - 2000, otherwise the whole breeding business would lose any sense, because the breeder's investment in his dogs was huge. A good puppy is on demand, you order him/her before his mother was mated. First born puppies are the most valuable, you may post here on this Forum yet another question about filling a contract between you and the breeder who is responsible for your puppy health, temperament and intellectual potential, all these three qualities are genetically inherited in dogs. Every GSD carries a potential to become agressive, and that would be your responsibility not to trigger that devil, but to raise a confident and obedient companion. Dogs don't train themselves from birth, GSDs are terribly obedient dogs, but you should consider training from the very first day you get him. Schutzhund protection is only one of three parts of competition, it uses playful dogs and their prey drive, and agressive dogs are disqualified. If you asked about good trusting breeder - many professionals in this Forum would suggest one or several.


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## meldy (Oct 23, 2013)

David Taggart said:


> Please, it is not true. First of all - a good puppy is costly, a good breeder would ask you not less than $1.500 - 2000, otherwise the whole breeding business would lose any sense, because the breeder's investment in his dogs was huge. A good puppy is on demand, you order him/her before his mother was mated. First born puppies are the most valuable, you may post here on this Forum yet another question about filling a contract between you and the breeder who is responsible for your puppy health, temperament and intellectual potential, all these three qualities are genetically inherited in dogs. Every GSD carries a potential to become agressive, and that would be your responsibility not to trigger that devil, but to raise a confident and obedient companion. Dogs don't train themselves from birth, GSDs are terribly obedient dogs, but you should consider training from the very first day you get him. Schutzhund protection is only one of three parts of competition, it uses playful dogs and their prey drive, and agressive dogs are disqualified. If you asked about good trusting breeder - many professionals in this Forum would suggest one or several.


 
Costly and good are not mutually exclusive. Every breeder I looked at started at 1500$ that was the going rate. Regardless of the lines, titles etc. 
Even the breeders who would sell me anything I want. And why wouldn't they charge the going rate? That doesn't mean you are getting what you pay for.

I stand by my assessment that a lot of it is breeder responsibility. I can name at least one WL breeder whose dogs are all over the place. On paper they look great (to someone like me with minimal knowledge) but they're mentally scattered with no consistency. As in NO consistency at all. This is not an issue of owner irresponsibility or lack of training. This is genetics and lack of care in what gets crossed with what.
It's puppy milling of WL dogs. 

And dogs like Boban having such a bad rap...training? or genetics? You imply it's all training and only training...
Interesting...Im sure there are a number of breeders here who would disagree. 

I know a little of how genetics works just from a history of breeding sport horses. There are lines that are workable, there are lines that produce a certain kind of athleticism and there are lines that are known for being borderline dangerous and moody. Regardless of how they are raised or handled. This is just a fact. I would assume the same is true of dogs.

Im not sure what you mean about asking about a puppy contract? Ive never asked such a thing anywhere on this forum?? If you could clarify what you mean by that statement that would be great!


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

I'd suggest you to register here and ask your question about a contract directly:
Micah Von Kraftwerk


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## meldy (Oct 23, 2013)

What question about contract? I have no question about contracts and I never have had one...hence my confusion??

I have my breeder picked out. If I had any such questions I'd ask not some random other person. That's just silly.

But the point remains Ive never asked the question to begin with so Im not sure where your information is from??


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

meldy said:


> Im not sure where your information is from??


Yes, that's a common refrain.


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## meldy (Oct 23, 2013)

Lol ok I'll let it be...very confused right now! Lol but I'm ok with that! 
Also should have edited my previous post properly in that if I have a contract question I will ask MY breeder not some random person as her contract is going to be the only one that matters to me


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

> Im not sure what you mean about asking about a puppy contract?


Now you know that such a thing exists.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

quote "They let obedience or manners slip for a little bit (usually within the first few months) and then they end up with a poorly trained, no manners, WL GSD that runs the house."

and that is different from show line , byb gsds, any dog at all?

Hopefully a working line , with more attention put to secure nerves and social and environmental confidence can find the "calm" , can focus and learn more easily , be an interested partner in the dog to human relationship.

I don't see the problem with a working line being a good and memorable family dog. Pedigree and slant matters . 
In the working lines you can have variations , once again , based on how the pedigree is built .


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