# Got the new Ivan video on retrieves!



## cledford (Apr 5, 2005)

I got the new video and it is outstanding! Huge kudos to both Ivan and Canine Training Systems for such a great product! I used a similar method for teaching my former dog (method was taught to me by my trainer) the retrieves (including the hold) and it worked phenomenally! This video goes beyond and has a lot of additional techniques for proofing the hurdle and wall retrieves. Having said all this, the video should also generate some interesting dialog as it does introduce (in the terms of operant conditioning) positive punishment (physical and collar corrections administered by the handler) and the manipulation of stress to achieve a learning environment and isolate a skill you want the dog to learn. Granted the methods are much, much less severe than a traditionally taught “forced retrieve” but there does to be a perception among some people who bought the other Obedience Without Conflict videos that Ivan’s methods are “purely positive” (a term I gather to them means training without use of compulsion or physical correction) and I assume that people extolling such nonsense might expect more of the same. In this video corrections are used and the stress they generate harnessed to isolate the hold. Again, this is minimal compared to traditional methods, however, some people are so adamant about not using compulsion, they might be surprised with this edition.

I say all of this, as when I entered the sport 4 years ago Ivan’s videos were recommended to me as a “purely positive” (no “compulsion”) method of training. Now, with a few years in, I see the serious error in that perception, but come across people regularly who seem think what I did – that a Schutzhund dog can be titled using only “positive” methods. (This is because they, as I, hadn’t titled any dogs) 

The reality is that the first 2 videos showed a method of TEACHING the dog using “positive reinforcement” (play, verbal and food rewards, conditioners and bridges), along with negative punishment – which is the withholding of a reward, but DID NOT introduce “positive punishment" aka a correction. The problem is that while “teaching” is important, it is but only one step in a chain of moving a dog from knowing nothing, to performing the exercise with reliability on a trial field. One of the other steps not addressed in the first videos is proofing. People who never titled a dog (therefore not understanding the true requirements for precision in a trial expected by a judge or who’ve had a dog tested in a fashion that they could actually see if reliability truly existed or not) saw what they wanted to see, which to them was “dog training” without “positive punishment” (aka. Corrections), when in reality the ONLY saw teaching – a single phase of an overall process called “training.” Having attended an Ivan seminar (and having friends who have been to several and/or one-on-one training session with him), I can say that I don’t think he intended to ever lead people to believe that a Schutzhund dog could be “finished” (i.e. capable of successfully completing a trial) without training the included “positive punishment” – but I think he did intend to show people that a dog could be TAUGHT and therefore, preserving its spirit, drive and enthusiasm for the work – with the “work ethic” portion addressed last, therefore minimizing the need for the correction. My personal believe, after 4 years or reading EVERY book on dog training, watching every show & expert, going to every pet expo, attending every trial of every sort (except field trials which I’ve not had the opportunity to attend), purchasing hundreds of dollars worth of videos, spending thousands on professional training and investing hundreds of hours working with my dogs is that Schutzhund IS THE MOST DEMANDING DOG SPORT OUT THERE BY FAR. I do not feel that what qualifies as “performance” or “training” (even to experts you see competing or training on TV) comes close in most cases to what is required to simply pass a Schutzhund trial – much less to knock the ball out of the park. I believe the dog should love the work and the bond with its handler and I feel that minimizing compulsion to teaching only *work ethic* (ie. You will do “X” when I tell you to and nothing else) and NOT using compulsion when teaching exercises/skills is the best way to train a dog to not only see the performance we want but the joy in the dog as well. However, I do not feel it is possible under any circumstances to train a Schutzhund dog completely (where it has achieved a title) without using some correction.

Anyhow, the video is a great product and certainly will be cause for a lot of thought provoking discussion!

-Calvin


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

Ivan is def. not a completely positive training person. There is a time and a place for compulsion/corrections and he knows that. 

Guess I'm going to have to get one to compare what's on there versus how he taught me to do it with Joschy. 

I did hear on another board to watch past the ending credits for a good laugh, lol. 

where did you order yours from?


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

Thanks for the recommendation! You have me seriously considering ordering it! And I am not even doing Schutzhund!


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Thanks for the review, Calvin. The video is on our "to get" list but I've been waiting for some reviews before plunking down the cash.


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

http://www.caninetrainingsystems.com/cgi-bin/shopper.cgi?preadd=action&key=V-SCH-BAL-3-RET


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

do you have the first video as well? It seems that it is better to have seen the clear communication video first? Do you agree?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

We used to have both of his earlier videos, "Clear Communication" and "The Game". Yes, the two pretty well go together with the 2nd building on the 1st. Having not seen the new retrieve video yet, I have no idea if seeing the first two would be important background info or not.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

I like the earlier 2 videos. I bought them after attending one of Ivan's seminars with Doerak. Seminar was great. Almost like magic how he easily and quickly got my dog to obey. LOL! I'm definitely going to have a look at the new one.


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## cledford (Apr 5, 2005)

The 3rd video states that the first 2 are required to understand the principals of the process. I agree. You still need to know how to play the "game" (for positive reward), withhold reward (negative punishment) and use commands to mark proper and incorrect behavior as well as provide encouragement and secondary reinforcement. The 3rd video uses ALL of the tools but doesn’t miss a beat reviewing them – it jumps right in assuming you know it all from the first 2. 

I also should point out that for all my discussion about the “positive punishment” covered in the 3rd video, all of the teaching EXCEPT the hold is taught using the methods of “positive reward” (play/food) and “negative punishment” (withholding play/food) covered in the first 2 videos. The corrections are only used for enforcing the out command (not teaching it – it is assumed the dogs is already “fluent” in the out) and the hold. The corrections for the hold are a required building block to generate stress in the dog, when then causes it to clamp its jaws shut – therefore producing the grip you seek to achieve. The grip is then praised and the dog eventually makes the connection that it is what is required. As an interesting aside, the dog is NEVER taught “take it” and in fact during most of the training for hold the dowel is placed in the dogs mouth to isolate the grip to the grip only (biting down on the dowel) versus the “taking into the mouth, then biting down.”

-Calvin


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## cledford (Apr 5, 2005)

The "blooper" after the credits is pretty funny! Also, they state that a 4th video on the motion exercises, send away and recall is forthcoming!


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I just recently purchased the first two DVD's and I loved them, even tho I am not a SchH person. Obedience is obedience no matter the venue. I loved them!! 

I may purchase the retrieve one later as even tho I do AKC a retrieve is aa retrieve. Ivan seesm to have a good handle ob positive and use of compulsion when needed. It sure helped me clean up some of the mixed signals I was sending Havoc.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

lol, yes I remember that part vividly, lol. The thing I found though was once Joschy learned it this way and clamped down, he didn't want to out the dumbbell as he had just learned to clamp, so that was a little bit of a pain. But it works!


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## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

Yes, the comment about the end trailer on the other board was made by me. It's funny the way Ivan reacts. The man does have a sense of humor. Here's a clip of him having a little fun at a seminar.

Ivan seminar 

Cledford is correct. This DVD does show more "positive correction" and even mentions the use of collar corrections. Even shows Ivan grab the dog by the collar and give him a couple of quick pulls & NO's.

Although we know corrections are needed you just can't show it on a mass produced media to be viewed by the general public in this day and age.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

that is HILARIOUS!!!!

Lee


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## gsdlove212 (Feb 3, 2006)

gee who would have thought that lil yorkie would go after that toy like it did LOL....maybe I am considering the wrong breed for SchH LMAO


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Hey!! There may be hope fo Kaynya yet!!


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I took it seriously for the first 1/3 of the video, too funny!


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