# HELP--->Questions about Raw Diets?



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I'm fairly new at this and I'm still figuring things out, but I obviously have tons to learn. It's bern a little over two weeks and we have tried chicken, turkey, pork and beef is next. Midnite has had chicken, turkey, bison, and elk. My questions are basically on portions. 

Sample meals
In the morning
-they all get either a split chicken breast that I cut in hslf(still quite a bit of meat with the bone), a leg quarter or a couple drumsticks. My goal is about .5 to 1 pound depending on the dog for the am feeding.

In the evening
-some ground meat, some chunked meat, some ground chicken with bone and organ, liver(small amts daily), gizzard or lung(small amts daily) and either chicken feet, turkey neck, turkey wing. This would be about 1 pound for each(give or take), I think it's ususlly more like 1.5 pounds.

I do give them digest all every couple days along with sardines about three times a week. They also get goat milk and coconut oil rotated.To be honest all other bones scare me after Apollos almost blockage incident. Is this what would be considered a balanced diet? What do I need to add or take away? Do I give spleen, pancreas, and liver every day all together of rotate a couple?

I'm getting tripe, trachea, psncreas and spleen to add to that, but I think that liver is a must? Then kidney(which I'm looking for)?

They are loving these meals. Poop is great and very reduced. I just want to make sure they are getting all they need--they are my life


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

I'll let those with more experience comment on how balanced everything is, but boy am I jealous of how many proteins you've been able to introduce! I have one on just chicken and the other on chicken and beef. I can't wait to give them this kind of variety!


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

It's hard to tell since you haven't really given amounts but as you are feeding right now, no. i would say it's not balanced. You need more organ meat. Heart, lung, trachea, gizzards and tripe are all muscle meat. You should be aiming for around 10% organ and it doesn't seem like you are quite there yet. 

As far as organ feeding goes, I feed a ground mix of about 35% liver, 20% heart 15% kidney, 10 % spleen, 10% pancreas, 5% brain & 5% testicle almost daily. Just add a scoop to the rest of their food. The grind may change depending on what the grocery story and my raw supplier has in stock. Oh and depending on the weights of the product. I round for easy math. Feeding over time is fine. I like to do the grind daily for convenience and because I feel with my guys life stages they do better with more balanced meals opposed to balancing over time (Growing pup and geriatric dog).

To be honest I would not be comfortable feeding the diet you are. At least not without further supplementation. There are so many things I personally want to feed for long term health that they wouldn't be able to get from your plan. Astaxanthin, ergothioneine, lutein, allicin, lycopene etc - Basically all sorts of good stuff that studies have shown prevent degenerative diseases. 

I would up the organ content and then add in small amounts of greens (including sea greens) fruits, veggies and fungi to bridge the nutritional gaps and take advantage of their health benefits. I'd also add more variety to the seafood you offer and include heart and eggs. Or at least add a good quality supplement like feed-sentials, vetraceuticals or a good multi vitamin.

It's no secret that I am not a fan of whole prey model raw. Eating nothing but meat, bone and organ is not a natural diet for the vast majority of canids. Every species of the Canis genus has been observed feeding on plant matter. And those garbage heap scavenging dogs of ours adapted to starches long ago. I'm not saying dogs should be vegetarians by any means but including some plant in the diet is natural and in their best health interests. Personally I wouldn't go more then 15% plant myself.

Another thing that bothers me about whole prey diets is the quality of meat today. Something I urge you to take into consideration is the source of your meat. I grew up in farm country. Want to know my biggest take away from my upbringing? Chicken yolks are supposed to be orange - not yellow. We free ranged our chickens. They ate garden scraps, bugs, grasses, they went crazy for the fruit in the orchard, we only fed grain during the coldest parts of winter. All and all they ate the healthiest diet you can feed a chicken! Their yolks were orange. I have NEVER seen a grocery store egg come anywhere near the hue of a properly free ranged chicken. Just like everything what you put in is what you get out. Darker yolks are more nutritious. They have much higher levels of antioxidants, omega 3s, and vitamins. Meat works the same way. Unless you are springing for pasture raised and free ranged meats you are missing out on a lot of nutrition. Factory farmed meats are as nutritious as the wonderful grain that fattened them up - corn! Cheap commercial feeds have all the macros needed to get a bird up to slaughter weight but they don't have the micro nutrients for long term health. Meaning the meat you feed doesn't have them either. 

Like I said at the very least pop a bottle of centrum. I prefer whole food nutrition though, so I just toss some berries and spinach in the blender.

Very glad your pups are enjoying their new food! Nothing like the enthusiasm they show over such yummy and healthy foodstuffs


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## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

Id say also that they need more organ meat, I'm ALSO jealous of the variety that you are able to get!! The best I can get here is, liver, kidney... And meats I can only get chicken, beef and horse... Sometimes goat. 

For bone I give them chicken backs/carcass, and also beef or horse necks. 
I also supplement a lot more, but have been told that it's not necessary... It just gives me more of peace of mind when I do. 
Eggs is another thing, they are very rich, so I try to give them eggs just a few times a week. 

I also only feed mine once a day, which I think is a more personal thing. 

I don't think you're too far off, I've been feeding raw for 5 years and it's still a learning process!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

They do get a scoop of a mix daily--it's bone, heart and liver. I don't know if that is enough so I do add additional liver daily. They also get spirulina and digest all. On occasion they get Kale and green beans or whatever other fruit veggie I have on hand. I have allergies in the house as far as seafood goes-no tuna, no shrimp and no salmon is allowed. We are kinda stuck with herring and mackersl only. I go through a farm for the chicken. I do my best to get the best meats I can. I can get free range eggs(locally and neighbors have chickens)!! I have tried the feed sentials, but there are a couple things in there that the dogs are allergic to or it doesn't agree with them

Now I feel like this raw isn't working out


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Is digest all a good supplement? It seems to work for them.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

bob_barker said:


> Id say also that they need more organ meat, I'm ALSO jealous of the variety that you are able to get!! The best I can get here is, liver, kidney... And meats I can only get chicken, beef and horse... Sometimes goat.
> 
> For bone I give them chicken backs/carcass, and also beef or horse necks.
> I also supplement a lot more, but have been told that it's not necessary... It just gives me more of peace of mind when I do.
> ...


I'm working on more organ meat, I'm going slower with that because it's so rich. I have to stay away from beef because of allergies, so I'm looking at bison, chicken, goat and turkey. I'm placing an order soon for all these things plus I am still giving the organ mix(just in case). 

These are my babies, I have no room for error!!


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## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

llombardo said:


> Is digest all a good supplement? It seems to work for them.



I've not heard of digest all. 

I order all of my herbs individually so I know exactly what they are getting of each one. 

It's stressful worrying that you are not giving them a balanced diet... But my "mentor" has drilled into my brain that it doesn't necessarily need to be balanced everyday, just over time. 
I mean, do we eat a balanced meal every single day? No, most of us don't.. As much as we try. 

Don't stress too much, you're doing great


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## osito23 (Feb 17, 2014)

The thing is, you can ask 10 different people about raw diets and get 10 different answers. Everyone has their own thoughts about raw feeding, and raw feeding can be tweaked so many different ways. My advice would be to slow down and not worry so much. I would be careful with organs being so new to raw. Every meal does not need to be balanced - balance over time is fine. Percentages do not need to be exact. I aim for mostly red meat, 10-15% bone, 10% organ, and then I don't worry about the rest. Sometimes they get rice or oatmeal, sometimes they get yogurt, sometimes veggies, tripe, eggs, fish, etc. Some people believe in a lot of supplements while others just use fish oil - again, everyone has their own opinion here.

Let your dogs be your guides: how do they look? Any health problems? Skin/coat issues? Stool issues? Energy levels? If all checks out, then you're probably doing just fine


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

They are super soft, I notice less shedding, very energetic, no itching, less stool, but solid and small. By looking at them I would think its working great.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Raw is probably working very well for them. 

You and I are so new to this, and it's easy to stress. The worry of an improper diet is real! I wouldn't worry yet. It's only been a couple of weeks. If they aren't getting all the organ meat they need right off the bat, it's probably no big deal. We are taking it super slow with adding new things (one protein every two weeks) so there is no way their diet is complete at this point. I'm also not feeding 10% organ meat yet, as they simply can't handle it at this time. It is quite rich. I know if I keep going slowly, we'll get there!


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## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

osito23 said:


> The thing is, you can ask 10 different people about raw diets and get 10 different answers. Everyone has their own thoughts about raw feeding, and raw feeding can be tweaked so many different ways. My advice would be to slow down and not worry so much. I would be careful with organs being so new to raw. Every meal does not need to be balanced - balance over time is fine. Percentages do not need to be exact. I aim for mostly red meat, 10-15% bone, 10% organ, and then I don't worry about the rest. Sometimes they get rice or oatmeal, sometimes they get yogurt, sometimes veggies, tripe, eggs, fish, etc. Some people believe in a lot of supplements while others just use fish oil - again, everyone has their own opinion here.
> 
> 
> 
> Let your dogs be your guides: how do they look? Any health problems? Skin/coat issues? Stool issues? Energy levels? If all checks out, then you're probably doing just fine



Perfectly said! 

Have fun with it! Sounds weird to say, but it's fun ! lol 

And it really is wild how different each dog is and how you can tell just by looking at them what the are lacking in or getting too much of.
Like I said, you will never stop learning after years of feeding.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

llombardo said:


> They do get a scoop of a mix daily--it's bone, heart and liver. I don't know if that is enough so I do add additional liver daily. They also get spirulina and digest all. On occasion they get Kale and green beans or whatever other fruit veggie I have on hand. I have allergies in the house as far as seafood goes-no tuna, no shrimp and no salmon is allowed. We are kinda stuck with herring and mackersl only. I go through a farm for the chicken. I do my best to get the best meats I can. I can get free range eggs(locally and neighbors have chickens)!! I have tried the feed sentials, but there are a couple things in there that the dogs are allergic to or it doesn't agree with them
> 
> Now I feel like this raw isn't working out


Nooo Nooo it is! it is working out!!!! Raw is a fantastic choice for your dogs!!!! You're only two weeks in. You will be a pro in no time! 

As other posters have said since you are just starting out it not being perfectly balanced is ok for now while you are testing and seeing what works best for your guys. I had my pit bull on an allergy elimination diet and he went weeks without getting proper -macronutrients-! He was fine. Wouldn't feed like that long term but a few weeks even a month or two while digestive systems are learning to handle new foods is not a problem.

Once you work your way up to 10% organ you will be well on your way to having a balanced diet. But Like I said, I would still supplement though. I personally have problems with the idea of using your dog as the only guide to what you are feeding. By all means yes look at your dog but also know what research on nutrition has discovered. There are some issues that you just CAN NOT see on the outside. Not enough calcium in an adult dog? You won't know until he breaks a bone or gets osteoporosis. Some things don't raise their ugly head for YEARS. Not enough magnesium in the diet? You may not figure that out until the dog has hind leg paralysis in his senior years. 

http://dels.nas.edu/resources/static-assets/banr/miscellaneous/dog_nutrition_final_fix.pdf

^ Easy to read RDA guide for dogs.

I was fooling around one day and I plugged in a meat and organ mix into a online recipe analyzer to compare to the above RDAs. Minus the bones of course. So ignore the calcium content (bones don't offer much else nutritionally) The recipe is 89% muscle meat (Lamb, Beef, Chicken, Heart, and Lung) and 11% organ with half of that being liver (The rest being kidney, spleen and pancreas) I tried to do the percentage of body weight for the amount but it ended up being a bit low caloric wise, so you'd have to double the serving size for a 33lb dog like in the guide

Here's the analysis page Nutrition Facts and Analysis for WHole Prey

Now this is really just a rough guide, some values are unknown in things like the spleen and pancreas. I have checked the nutriondata values against the USDA ones and they are pretty spot on. 

That meat and organ mix is critically low on vitamin E it only has 1/4 of the RDA. It's very low in vitamin K. It's low in maganese and magnesium as well. It's borderline on zinc. And may be low in choline (unknown values for choline in spleen and pancreas)

There are fantastic whole food sources for what's missing. A few cups of dark leafy greens, a handful of sunflower seeds, some canned oysters and a few eggs each week would solve it. 

There are also many multi vitamins on the market as well. It's up to you what you feel most comfortable with. 

Heck. You could decide that you don't trust the studies that guide was based, or the authors or what ever. That they are in with big dog food and you are most comfortable feeding dogs as obligate carnivores. 

The hardest part about home prepared diets is figuring out your own feeding philosophy.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I just got some grass fed goat meat, liver and kidneys they will have spleen for me next time. They are also willing to give me a better deal next time I go in.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Someone sent me a real nice spreadsheet and I have to say I was right on target with everything. I feel much better. I went and got a scale, reorganized the refrigerator and freezer. I still don't have much space for other stuff. I do have the meals separated by days for the most part.


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