# WHO is spreading this nonsense?!



## Anitsisqua (Mar 25, 2012)

I have been seeing more and more lately about people feeding their pets vegetarian/vegan diets. I have nothing but respect for people that make this decision, but cats and dogs?! I'm of the opinion that if you don't want some sort of meat product in your house, your pets should be rabbits or something.


Now, to the actual question: A college friend of mine is a vegan, and she has decided to put her cats on a vegan diet. She is convinced that it is safe and healthy for her cats. 

Any advice on how to talk her out of this? She makes me crazy, but I feel bad for the poor cats.

Also, as the title queries, are there people actually ADVOCATING this sort of thing?


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Explain to her that cats are carnivores. They absolutely need meat in their diet. No question..


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## Anitsisqua (Mar 25, 2012)

GatorDog said:


> Explain to her that cats are carnivores. They absolutely need meat in their diet. No question..


^ She gets this really big smile and says that hers aren't.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

I can't understand this way of feeding a dog or cat either. For the human, no problem.

Someone told me before their cousin was vegetarian and got a puppy and fed him/her a vegertarian diet and the poor bones were soft...not sure if that's possible? But obviously not a healthy well rounded diet for a dog...or cat.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Anitsisqua said:


> ^ She gets this really big smile and says that hers aren't.


That is absolutely selfish, in my opinion.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

My husband and I are vegetarians and our dog eats MEAT! I wanted to feed Mikko a humane diet, so he's eating local, pasture raised beef, local free range chicken, and locally raised and organic rabbit. And, I'm only paying $1.75-$2lb! 
If she is a vegetarian because of the treatment of the animals, she could feed humanely raised meat. If you find local sources and get weird cuts, it's not even that expensive.
But cats are pure carnivores!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Anitsisqua said:


> ^ She gets this really big smile and says that hers aren't.


Well I guess she's right in the sense that's she's forced them to be, in the same way that a human is a vegetarian because their diet does not include meat. But that doesn't change the fact that genetically, her cats are obligate carnivores. They need animal based proteins because they cannot utilize plant proteins as efficiently. Animal proteins have a complete amino acid profile, which plant based proteins do not. Humans can get some amino acids from one plant based source and some from another (rice and beans, for example) to get a complete amino acid profile, cats can't. 

I hope she's supplementing with Taurine, it's in meat but not in plants. Taurine deficiency is very serious and can cause blindness and heart problems.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO said:


> My husband and I are vegetarians and our dog eats MEAT! I wanted to feed Mikko a humane diet, so he's eating local, pasture raised beef, local free range chicken, and locally raised and organic rabbit. And, I'm only paying $1.75-$2lb!
> If she is a vegetarian because of the treatment of the animals, she could feed humanely raised meat. If you find local sources and get weird cuts, it's not even that expensive.
> But cats are pure carnivores!


yeah, I think most people who are vegeterian like you & your husband don't feed their pets meatless diets. Hey, Mikko is lucky with his diet, that's good meat!


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

My boyfriend is a vegetarian and I am on my way there myself. If she is choosing to feed because she doesn't agree with the treatment of animals and is incapable and unwilling to purchase food processed on a free range farm then she is neglecting the needs of her pets and should not own them, IMO.


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## Anitsisqua (Mar 25, 2012)

I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO said:


> If she is a vegetarian because of the treatment of the animals, she could feed humanely raised meat. If you find local sources and get weird cuts, it's not even that expensive.
> But cats are pure carnivores!


I will have to suggest this. I don't know how she'll take to having meat in the apartment, though. A really good friend of mine used to be her room mate, but she ended up moving out because this girl wouldn't let her have meat/dairy/eggs in the apartment and would throw it away. Kibble with meat managed to stay until just now, and I hope maybe she'll reconsider.


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO said:


> My husband and I are vegetarians and our dog eats MEAT! I wanted to feed Mikko a humane diet, so he's eating local, pasture raised beef, local free range chicken, and locally raised and organic rabbit. And, I'm only paying $1.75-$2lb!
> If she is a vegetarian because of the treatment of the animals, she could feed humanely raised meat. If you find local sources and get weird cuts, it's not even that expensive.
> *But cats are pure carnivores!*


THis was my thought... it is bad enough for a dog but cats systems are true carnivores!! They even can have a ton of issues eating kibble because there isn't enough moisture but to deprive them of any meat at all should be animal cruelty IMO. She will be slowly killing her cats...


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

You are not going to talk her out of it. Make sure she knows that cats NEED Taurine and Carnitine and at least that her cat is being fed (ack) a vegetairan CAT food and not just stuff she eats.

Ask her about feeding studies. Our normal cats had no trouble making 18-20 years. How long have these vegetarian cats lived?


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## Anitsisqua (Mar 25, 2012)

jocoyn said:


> You are not going to talk her out of it.


I really am afraid that this is true. Still, I can try...

Also, she is feeding some sort of "Cruelty-free" kibble...so it probably has taurine in it?


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

Anitsisqua said:


> I will have to suggest this. I don't know how she'll take to having meat in the apartment, though. A really good friend of mine used to be her room mate, but she ended up moving out because this girl wouldn't let her have meat/dairy/eggs in the apartment and would throw it away. Kibble with meat managed to stay until just now, and I hope maybe she'll reconsider.


Yikes... was she trying to make your friend become vegan? Now she's just taking it out on her cats?


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## Anitsisqua (Mar 25, 2012)

sashadog said:


> Yikes... was she trying to make your friend become vegan? Now she's just taking it out on her cats?


Well, she said my friend could eat meat, etc...she just couldn't have it in their apartment. Supposedly, it was disrespectful or some such.

And she really does love these cats (All 3 of them!) It's obvious that she does...I just wish she could see that this is not good for them.


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

One of my dogs ate a vegetarian diet for a couple years while I was also a vegetarian. The dog chose not to eat meat... I tried cooked and raw meat... nope, won't take it. The dog was also plagued with a lot of illnesses at the time and it seemed the vegan diet worked out for him and was what he wanted. After a few years when he's 100% healthy, he now only wants to eat meat.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Bear L said:


> One of my dogs ate a vegetarian diet for a couple years while I was also a vegetarian. The dog chose not to eat meat... I tried cooked and raw meat... nope, won't take it. The dog was also plagued with a lot of illnesses at the time and it seemed the vegan diet worked out for him and was what he wanted. After a few years when he's 100% healthy, he now only wants to eat meat.


A dog's diet differs greatly from a cat's diet. While a dog is scientifically an omnivore with carnivorous traits, a cat is a carnivore through and through. They need meat.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

If it's a commercial diet it will have taurine in it.

But have her do this - or do it for her :evilgrin:

Take a freshly killed mouse - slightly bloody - and lay it down for the kitty. Alongside it, lay a piece of broccoli and maybe a piece of celery stick. 

And see which the cat devours!!!

FTR, my cat eats at least 1 rodent a day on our farm. When rodents aren't out, he gets birds.


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

If she is vegan because of moral reasons you could explain to her that by depriving her cats of eating meat she's actually being cruel to them? The same way that we insist on feeding cows corn and other unspeakable things because it's cheaper even though they can't process it and it ends up killing them. She's doing the same thing by denying her cats their natural diet. Also, here's a website that promotes vegan diets for cats and dogs... interesting.

Vegan Cat Food - Vegan Dog Food - Vegan Animal Products - VeganCats.com


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Lack of meat and proper food is why the big cats kept as pets tend to have bone issues and don't live long.
She is an idiot.. Interesting, if you google Vegatarian Cat food, PETA has alot of articles recommending it for both dogs and cats.. Hmm, no wonder, if the dogs/cats die, PETA will be happy.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Anitsisqua said:


> and she has decided to put her cats on a vegan diet. She is convinced that it is safe and healthy for her cats.


Cats are OBLIGATE carnivores which means they HAVE to have meat in their diet because unlike a human, they can not produce their own taurine. Without taurine, they die. Heart failure, they will go blind. If she is feeding a kibble that has taurine in it, she is feeding a substandard diet to her cats but probably won't kill them.

IMO, your friend might be an idiot who is unwilling to look at the natural diet of a feline. If she doesn't want to feed a proper diet, then she shouldn't have a cat. Let her get a rabbit...they eat grass.


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## Anitsisqua (Mar 25, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> If it's a commercial diet it will have taurine in it.
> 
> But have her do this - or do it for her :evilgrin:
> 
> ...


I don't think my 2 cats would ever forgive me if they found out that I had given a mouse to another cat.

I have an outdoor cat as well, and she eats her fill of lizards, mice, and birds. For this reason, I would be MUCH more supportive of this girl feeding a vegan kibble if her cats got any outside time. (They don't. They're indoors-only.)


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## Anitsisqua (Mar 25, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> IMO, your friend might be an idiot who is unwilling to look at the natural diet of a feline.


Well, the most ridiculous part of all this is that we were both biology majors. She should understand all of this, but she won't listen. She's not stupid... Self-deluding is more likely.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Cats would eat US if they could figure out how to kill us


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## Anitsisqua (Mar 25, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> Cats would eat US if they could figure out how to kill us


I'm pretty convinced mine tries. Sometimes, I wake up, and she is lying on top of me. She's probably trying to decide which part to eat first.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Or whether to use her claws, or teeth, and whichever she chooses, can she deliver a killing blow all at once so there's no retaliatory effort on your part?


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## Anitsisqua (Mar 25, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> Or whether to use her claws, or teeth, and whichever she chooses, can she deliver a killing blow all at once so there's no retaliatory effort on your part?


Or, perhaps, whether eating me is worth losing her litterbox cleaner.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Dogs can survive on a well balanced, vegetarian diet but it makes no sense at all for a cat because, as others have mentioned, they are obligate carnivores. 

I have several close friends who are strict vegans but all of them feed their animals meat and several of them feed raw.


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

That was the point I wanted to make - that dogs can do it, in response to OP's original email on the dog part only.


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## stealthq (May 1, 2011)

Anitsisqua said:


> Well, the most ridiculous part of all this is that we were both biology majors. She should understand all of this, but she won't listen. She's not stupid... Self-deluding is more likely.


To be honest, to me, this is the definition of stupidity. Or is that insanity? Sometimes it is just so difficult to tell the two apart 

Please, please, tell me that your friend is not planning a career in any form of health-related field - either human or animal.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

I don't even understand how people can be vegetarians. I can respect their reasons, but animal fats and proteins are very beneficial to humans. True a corn stuffed cow raised on a commercial feed lot isn't exactly producing the healthiest of meat, but that doesn't mean meat is bad for you, it means the way we raise it is bad for us. 

I guess if people want to feed themselves and their pets a diet that is lacking, that's their decision.


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

How would you even get a cat to eat a vegan diet? My future mother in law's cats are so picky she has to get one cat this special flavor of kibble, another cat this special kind of wet food, and her other cat a combination of a certain kind of wet food and a certain kind of kibble mixed together.

I think forcing _her_ lifestyle on her cats because of _her_ beliefs of animal treatment is cruel. It will only hurt them. A vegan shouldn't force a carnivore to be a vegan. She should try owning a different animal. She'll have greater joy owning a bird that will enjoy her lifestyle instead of forcing her cats to eat food they won't like and will probably only eat just to prevent starvation.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

If she's so passionate about her love of the earth she ought to pay more attention to it's creatures and their needs.
She could feed raw, and use organic/free range chicken and all that stuff.

Soy will never provide the type nutrition a cat needs, or even a dog for that matter. Dogs may survive on it, but that's not the type protein their body needs or utilizes in an optimum manner.
But I guess if you like dealing with the farts...


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## Anitsisqua (Mar 25, 2012)

stealthq said:


> To be honest, to me, this is the definition of stupidity. Or is that insanity? Sometimes it is just so difficult to tell the two apart
> 
> Please, please, tell me that your friend is not planning a career in any form of health-related field - either human or animal.


Nah, she's doing some sort of wetland ecology research.



Syaoransbear said:


> How would you even get a cat to eat a vegan diet? ...
> She should try owning a different animal. She'll have greater joy owning a bird that will enjoy her lifestyle instead of forcing her cats to eat food they won't like and will probably only eat just to prevent starvation.


I guess they'll eat anything if they're hungry enough...and she probably SHOULD have a different sort of pet...but she loves those cats, and she's not going to get rid of them.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I think she loves to have the cats, but does not love the cats. 

If you love something, its needs come first.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

I have a couple friends who are vegan, and they have two little dogs and they don't feed them anything non-vegan. I supposed it can be done, but I would think that you'd need to really do your research to make certain your dog was getting the proper nutrition. And vegan cats... Bad idea.

I think if you are so morally opposed to the consumption of animal products, why would you even own an animal? That's what I don't get about my vegan friends. They are members of PETA, so how can they justify having dogs? I don't mind people who think a certain way, but they need to be consistent in their beliefs, lol.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

This is a great cat feeding website: Feeding Your Cat: Know the Basics of Feline Nutrition :: healthy cat diet, making cat food, litter box, cat food, cat nutrition, cat urinary tract health Written by a vet, trying to get people to feed cats what they need as obligate carnivores, as people have said. 

That's too bad. 

Veggie Cat Food? Why Not All Cats Need Meat: Scientific American

WOW - was this written by the Scarecrow - so this is the Straw Man: Ethical Pets Blog obligate carnivore If you have cat food that has things in it that are not normally what cats would eat in the wild (because yeah, most pet owners aren't going to buy Rat canned food) or they have ingredients in it that aren't just right, then all meat based cat food is bad. Which eliminates meat based canned and raw foods...So this is what the vegan feeders are eating up, information wise.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Interestingly enough, when I was home cooking I sometimes used tofu or beans (in addition to meat) to ensure the dogs were getting enough protein. They never got gas from it! I was really surprised.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

It would be my supposition that plain tofu would be a "cleaner" source of protein and without all the other byproducts found in cheaper dog food.

When I worked at the shelter, all we were donated was cheap dog food- which is fine - but on the cleaning side of things, it was a mess.
Big bloated stools, stinky dogs, often poor coats (on some we were obligated to keep longer due to court cases). But then again, soy was the main ingredient, along with "meat and bone meal", etc.
So who knows what causes the gas - all I've found is that any dog food with soy usually does make them reek.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I know what causes the gas: the plant sugars raffinose and stachyose, aka oligosaccharides. 

They are more complex type of carbohydrates than other sugars and contain three to 10 saccharide units, making them really hard to digest.

Simple sugars are called monosaccharides and are shorter chain sugars, broken down much easier.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Ah, so it's like lactose intolerance??
The milk sugar is hard for some to digest


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Yes, it is. The sugars in beans are very long chains, and many animals, us included, do not have the necessary enzymes to break them down. That is why the gas, because the sugars begin to ferment in the gut. 
Got this info from a doctor's radio show in the 80s.  Remembered it because I finally understood why I could never eat beans without feeling as if knives were being plunged into my gut.


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## asja (Mar 22, 2011)

Sunflowers said:


> Yes, it is. The sugars in beans are very long chains, and many animals, us included, do not have the necessary enzymes to break them down. That is why the gas, because the sugars begin to ferment in the gut.
> Got this info from a doctor's radio show in the 80s.  Remembered it because I finally understood why I could never eat beans without feeling as if knives were being plunged into my gut.


Several years ago I took a cooking class in Santa Fe. The chef said to cook beans with an herb called epazote to avoid the gas problem. It seems to work.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Anitsisqua said:


> Nah, she's doing some sort of wetland ecology research.


If she is so hard into ecology, she shouldn't even own cats. They are responsible of more birds extinction than any other animal (with our help, of course).

People just have too much time and too much money nowadays...


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## robfromga (May 10, 2012)

Another liberal fantasy. Cats and dogs kill and eat meat


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## GSDkid (Apr 19, 2011)

To answer the OP's question, this was actually shown on Animal planet where an old lady was convinced her cat could safely become vegans. Neighbors complained about the unhealthy look of the cats and AC came to inspect. You could tell that the old lady wasn't all there. The cats were nothing but skin and bones but they still ate their vegan diet. I believe it was Rice, carrots and potatoes... One of the cats became blind I believe.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Catu said:


> If she is so hard into ecology, she shouldn't even own cats. They are responsible of more birds extinction than any other animal (with our help, of course).


They are also responsible for keeping the rodent population in check.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

bird extinction? Sure cats kill some birds, but then because humans put up houses all over their yards, build buildings prefect for putting up nests, and put our an unnatural amount of seed and other food for birds, the population is already at a much higher level than an ecosystem could naturally sustain.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Wow... I looked this up and found this article. Very educational!
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/02/magazine/02cats-v--birds-t.html


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## nitemares (Dec 15, 2005)

haven't read all 5 pages, but when it comes to cats they absolutely 100% need an amino acid called Taurine. Taurine ONLY exist in dark meats. It does not exist in fruits and vegetables. 
Taurine deficiency in cats cause poor vision, hair loss, bad teeth, slow growth and most importantly dilated cardiomyopothy. Could also cause the cat not to reproduce, and/or miscarriage.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

crackem said:


> bird extinction? Sure cats kill some birds, but then because humans put up houses all over their yards, build buildings prefect for putting up nests, and put our an unnatural amount of seed and other food for birds, the population is already at a much higher level than an ecosystem could naturally sustain.


Cats are already responsible of the extinction of 33 species. Without considering the other 41 species eradicated from their island environment.

Now, I'm not saying that people shouldn't own cats. I'm saying that if someone is so extremist on her mindset as to feed a cat with a vegan diet in the name of ecology and "ethic reasons", then the impact of cats is something she should consider.

Just as those vegetarians that don't eat meat, but don't care how their tuna is captured nor the living conditions of the chickens from where their eggs come from.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

GSDkid said:


> cats were nothing but skin and bones but they still ate their vegan diet. I believe it was Rice, carrots and potatoes... One of the cats became blind I believe.


That's not even the half of it. Remember here a while back the couple that starved their infant to death by giving it only vegan stuff? Which kinda ticked me off, because they make soy formula if you were dead set against milk products. 



> Taurine ONLY exist in dark meats.


If you read the ingredients on the label of a commercial vegan cat food, it does include taurine. It could not be marketed without it. I don't know how accessible it is to the cat as an additive but most regular cat foods do add taurine and don't rely on however much is in the meat they add to it.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Catu said:


> Just as those vegetarians that don't eat meat, but don't care how their tuna is captured nor the living conditions of the chickens from where their eggs come from.


I, personally, get a kick out of the vegetarians who wear leather and don't make that connection back to the animal they refuse to eat.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

robfromga said:


> Another liberal fantasy.


No, it isn't.  She's just wrong, plain and simple.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

I used to groom a tiny mixed-breed dog that the owner insisted on feeding a homemade vegan diet. She started out feeding a vegetarian kibble but for some reason that wasn't good enough....so she started feeding her dog beans and rice. Trust me, this dog was NOT digesting the beans, they were coming out pretty much the same way they went in! 

Anyway the dog started having severe health problems...went completely blind very suddenly, and started losing weight......vets couldn't find any disease, but the dog finally got to a point where she couldn't walk anymore and was just skin and bones. The owner STILL refused to adjust the diet. When I talked to the owners about the dog's condition, they'd just shrug and say "She's old, that's why she has these problems." Dog died at 12, which is actually pretty young for an 8 pound dog, and she was miserable for the last 2 of those years.


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## SusiQ (Jul 27, 2007)

Depriving a creature of sustenance that they need to survive and enjoy good health (meat, in the case of dogs and cats) is animal cruelty IMO - these individuals should have herbivores for pets.


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