# Defensive Aggression



## KidaRoo (May 21, 2018)

Hi All,

So our 8 mo. old puppy "Kida" is starting to be aggressive against other people and certain dogs. For dogs, if they're bigger than her, she'll get extremely defensive. Then after some time she'll either be fine with them or continue to be defensive. I'm guessing this isn't too big of an issue. However her behavior towards people is concerning. We tried to bring her to a town near us that a lot of people go to as a tourist trap. It's a nice little town on the river and plenty of people bring their dogs and walk around. Well, as soon as we got out of the car, two little girls wanted to pet Kida, and of course we said yes. So they approached and reached out and Kida started to growl. It was a low growl; she didn't bite or bare her teeth, she didn't bark either. Just a low group and backed closer to me. I scolded her and told her No, and she continued to growl. Throughout the day, Kida would walk up behind people and sniff them, but if they tried to pet her she'd run away and if they followed she'd growl. However, towards the end of the day random people would come up and Kida would let them pet her without her growling or being defensive. 

So, We've taken her to dog parks where she hasn't had the best of experiences. We've made she she's been in constant contact with plenty of people (difference sexes, races, ages, etc.) since we got her at 8 weeks. We've been stern with her behavior and she doesn't bite us anymore unless she's playing. She listens pretty well (though she can get distracted, go figure). I should also note that she was 1 of 12 and the people had 2 litters. So 24 pups outside of their garage in a medium sized cage in late October, Minnesota (so cold). When we picked Kida up she was 1/3 the size of her siblings and would desperately eat any leaf or twig she could find and consume water as fast as she could. We don't know for sure, but because she was 8 pounds and skin and bones we're guessing she was extremely malnourished. Since then, she's healthy and after some Vet appts. she been on the rebound. We've made sure she's not aggressive about food and humans (water too). I can reach into her bowl while she's eating and take some food out and feed her and she's perfectly fine with it. 

o my questions are these: Is this something I should be worried about, or is it just her being young and taking a while to get used to people before warming up and being social? If it is something I should be worried about, what's the best course of action? Lastly, What's the best method to stop her from growling at people when they want to pet her, without making her behavior get worse?

Thanks!


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Yes, be concerned.

Her growling - stop correcting her for growling. You want that communication from her. You want to know when she is uncomfortable/scared. 

What to do - find a trainer ASAP. Not Petsmart, not purely positive. Look for an extremely experienced balanced trainer/behaviroist that knows GSD and working dogs. 

Stop the dog parks. She doesn't need to play with other dogs and with bad experiences that will only increase the dog aggression.

People do not need to pet her. If someone asks to pet her, answer no she is in training, ask them to ignore her. Be firm if needed and don't be afraid to walk the other way if someone wants to ignore you saying 'aww dogs love me'. 

Condition her to a muzzle. Her growls are warnings - the next step is a bite. Prevent the bite. Dog Muzzles 101: Tips for Muzzling Your Dog - plus tons of videos on muzzle conditioning. 






Priority is finding the trainer. Take your time, be patient before selecting a trainer. Not all trainers are cut out for behavior modification.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Sounds like she has some nerves issues. I don't agree that you shouldn't correct her when she is growling at people who are not threatening her. You determine when she displays aggression, not her. The exception is if you are attacked. But this dog doesn't sound like she has the temperament for PP.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

GSDs generally are not social with strangers or most people outside of their immediate'pack'.Observing the world from a distance she's comfortable with and not allowing people to touch her or crowd her is the best thing for her.Take away the reason for her anxiety and she won't feel she has to defend herself.
Flooding her with attention and petting will make her more anxious and uncomfortable.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Showing that behavior at 8 months is nerves. It is in her and it won't change, however you can learn to manage it. It is imperative that you stop unwanted interaction (her growls indicate unwanted) and get a breed savvy trainer asap. I would recommend contacting your most local IPO club and ask for their guidance.

My dog was suspicious and forward defensive at 8 months old. Heck, at 7 months old. He did not cower or try to get away, he went forward and let out huge booming barks and would chase had he been allowed. What can appear as early confidence and bravery at that age is the EXACT opposite, it is a common misconception by novices that "his protection instincts are kicking in early". I was one of those people. Nope. It means he feels inappropriately threatened and is subsequently inappropriately reactive, It is actually based in a lack of confidence and bravery. It is hard to hear "it's nerves" but owning and getting educated on how to make your dog the best he can be is the only course of action that will get you a positive outcome here.

As for my dog, for example, doing IPO training and having sessions with a trainer that knows his lines has absolutely turned us around. The confidence he has gained from structured OB and especially bite work has upped his confidence. At 11 months old he is aloof but not on the offense anymore. As he ages I have to keep on the path. He is going to be a wonderful casual IPO and family protector. Had I not jumped on it, he would be a dog that would not be leaving the house too often I suspect. 

Relationship games are key too. Bonding and building trust. Tug, doing A frames ...if she trusts you, and succeeds at training, her confidence will improve. Getting her focus, being the most fun thing in her life, the most trusted thing in her life, will enable you to navigate her through situations she is uncomfortable with. Learn the focused heel, watch me command, make it fun. Make it a priority, it can save you from a sticky situation.

Also work on YOUR defense. She clearly does not want attention and pets from strangers. So do not allow it. She does not exist in this world to entertain people you encounter on walks. Be prepared to tell people in a calm but firm voice please ignore her, we are training. Be prepared to walk away when they do not listen. 

First step though...contact that club or trainer. Breed knowledgeable. In the meantime do not push her out of her comfort zone. Good luck and keep us posted!


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## Shane'sDad (Jul 22, 2010)

KidaRoo said:


> Hi All,
> 
> So our 8 mo. old puppy "Kida" is starting to be aggressive against other people and certain dogs. For dogs, if they're bigger than her, she'll get extremely defensive. Then after some time she'll either be fine with them or continue to be defensive. I'm guessing this isn't too big of an issue. However her behavior towards people is concerning. We tried to bring her to a town near us that a lot of people go to as a tourist trap. It's a nice little town on the river and plenty of people bring their dogs and walk around. Well, as soon as we got out of the car, two little girls wanted to pet Kida, and of course we said yes. So they approached and reached out and Kida started to growl. It was a low growl; she didn't bite or bare her teeth, she didn't bark either. Just a low group and backed closer to me. I scolded her and told her No, and she continued to growl. Throughout the day, Kida would walk up behind people and sniff them, but if they tried to pet her she'd run away and if they followed she'd growl. However, towards the end of the day random people would come up and Kida would let them pet her without her growling or being defensive.
> 
> ...


 For me I wouldn't hang an "aggressive" tag on this dog...she's young.. still developing behaviors and learning everyday....in this case she's fresh out of the car.. in a new and foreign place to her and two strangers approach her....likely talking goofy and arms out stretched....it doesn't matter to her they're kids--to her they're strangers walking towards her and her people.....she's a GSD not a Golden. For you as her owner.....don't...don't allow strangers to approach and pet her.....get her out of the car on a leash and start walking around.....don't allow people to touch/pet her until she's more relaxed/comfortable and "ready"... no one can "read" when that time is in your dog.... better than you.


The more often you can put her in situations like this and she has a good experience ....the better she'll be as an adult around groups/crowds of strangers....letting people put hands on her when she's not ready is not good for her developing into a stable adult...when it comes to strangers....contact should come on your dogs terms....NOT a strangers terms.......The proof of what she really is AND can be ....is in her good behavior by the end of the day.


I'd like to say... you did a great job telling the story with out a lot of "blank" spots which lead to members having questions:thumbup: and a great job raising this youngster so far.....with a little bit of "tweaking"....IMO in the future you've got a great adult dog :thumbup:---one that many newbies and members here would be lucky to have....based on your post I know I sure would !


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

KidaRoo said:


> ... Is this something I should be worried about, or is it just her being young and taking a while to get used to people before warming up and being social?


German Shepherds are supposed to be aloof, not social. I would expect this behavior to increase as she matures. I would not try to change who she is but change your expectations of this breed.

I would correct the growling but I also would stop people from approaching her. She does not like it or want it. She is not, by nature, a social butterfly despite your nurture. Teach her to ignore people. I would work on putting strong obedience on this dog.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

people need to stop supporting these puppy farmers .

years ago when you had pet shops that would sell puppies and kittens as they would canaries and budgies , litters like this may have been in better (saleable) condition and sold as job lots to these stores.

the pet shops would have cleaned them up and put them in display pens -- AKC ! CKC ! registered - bah ias if that means something . 
Then they would slap on some exorbitant price , double that of breeders that were diligent in choosing best possible breeding pairs , socialized the pups, screened buyers carefully, gave honest guarantees, and made themselves available to be an interested extended support as much or as little as the new owner wanted.

People would be entertained, and in the energy of the moment being with friends would whip out their credit card and buy "a dog" . Impulse.

I am so glad that legislation was passed which prohibits sale of pups in this manner.

Two litters with 12 pups each ??? I bet you anyting that this was more than 1 litters . May have been a collection
of similar aged pups thrown together - maybe 3 or even 4 litters.
DNA would have been nice . 

Go back and visit these people -- see what they have available now . Might be deja vu , nothing changed .

Your dog at 8 months is not a pup --- think of her as a Dog - a young dog. 

You took a sketchy ill dog and brought some semblance of health to her . That is a good thing.

You had a pup that had no positive social experience - barely enough care and feed to keep body and soul together .
You wanted to to the best that you could , and that is good. 
But you took a dog with next to nothing to a flood of experinece , marinating her in commonly held thoughts on how to socialize 
" We've taken her to dog parks where she hasn't had the best of experiences. We've made she she's been in constant contact with plenty of people (difference sexes, races, ages, etc.) since we got her at 8 weeks."

When the dog was showing that she was at her tolearnce level , she gets a stern correction.

go to this thread http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...0-rethinking-popular-early-socialization.html 

the dog should not be biting you . Period . Not even in play. 

quote " as soon as we got out of the car, two little girls wanted to pet Kida, and of course we said yes."

of course? more like why in the world would you set up for a failed social experience.

The dog had not adapted to the new surroundings. You were boxed in , backed up by the car - no place
to go to in avoidance. 
Dhildren do not have to go see the "nice doggy" - . The parents are exposing them to a potential problem.
They don't know the dog .
Dogs are not community property . You don't owe anyone the chance to get familiar with your dog . 

" So they approached and reached out and Kida started to growl."

Liability . I assume some guardian of the children asked if they could "see the puppy"
The assumption is because you said okay.

But your dog is not okay . By you giving permission you are responsible for anything that follows.
So the girls approach -- eye contact -- arms out . and your dog clearly shows that it is not comfortble.

"It was a low growl;" right here and before , if you had been watching your dog's physical cues , stffening,
yawning , looking around , -- but a growl - right there you and the parents should have taken themselves out of this situation . 
You could have said something like - I guess not "puppy" must be upset from the car ride , or puppy is in a bit of a mood --- the parents should have said - "puppy doesn't want to see you today - let's go , maybe another time"

continue quote " she didn't bite or bare her teeth, she didn't bark either. Just a low group and backed closer to me.'

the dog was trying to avoid the contact . Best possible break for you as the dog could have easily gone forward with a pre emptive strike out at the kids. Fear - fight or flight options. Luckily for you , the dog chooses flight .
But you had the car behind you so the flight was restricted.

" I scolded her and told her No, and she continued to growl"

and at this point for a scold - which would add to her anxiety . This could have ended with an accidental
defensive bite to you out of panic.

No dog parks - especially since the experiences have not been positive for her.

She does not need to meet outher dogs. She does not need to be up close and familiar with people.

Her breeding probably has no rhyme nor reason . Not tested for clarity and stability. Not given important
first social contacts which begin at just over the 4 week mark and reach important milestones at 7 to 8 weeks of age .The nerves are not good . This is a shy dog who wants to avoid . 

So what to do?

Pack your dog into your vehicle . Use a crate so that you don't have passers by stimulate her.

Go by yourself . Give 100% plus attention and focus to the dog. No cell phone , no friend to chat with,
no ear buds to distract you . 
You bring dog out on a good , properly fitting collar and a good 6 foot leash . And , you walk , with confidence,
brisk pace . And you negotiate a route where there may be people which you will give wide berth to and continue
to walk and praise each time the dog has focus on YOU and you pass a person . Good dog.
If dog shows hesitation , you tell the dog let's go and keep walking . No social pressure.

Short bursts . Do this for 5 minutes -- remove yourself from that environment - find a place to sit -- no pedestrian traffic -- or make a loop so that your entire first walk is only 5 minutes and put the dog back into the car , in the crate , and you go away . Just out of sight. Give the dog 10 minutes to settle , think about what just happened .

Then you go and collect the dog -- without a big emotional reunion - try to keep the emotion out as theis dog is already emotionally sensitive.
Repeat a brisk confident walk - not stopping for people -- just keep on going . If "good" go a little longer.

Repeat.

Now you may want to drive a short distance , and start all over .
You do this -- short excursions which the dog can handle with an assurance of safety - the home base .
Home base will be phased out .


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Your dog has to know you have her back. She doesn't. You need to find a good balance trainer and stop forcing her into situations where she feels like she needs to defend herself.
Not a fan of correcting growling. She needs to learn that if she tells you she is uncomfortable you will understand. 
I taught Shadow touch. So when she is scared or uncomfortable she nudges my hand. If she has to resort to growling I screwed up!


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

Hi, 
We went through the same thing with our 5 year old rescue shepsky. 
We had a few incidents where he growled at strangers that tried to pet him on the head .. that low warning growl.
( At first I was letting them approach, because my childhood dog LOVED attention and adored all people, and I thought all dogs were like that. )
But I realize the shepherd breed just tends to be more suspicious of strangers...

For peace of mind, I've adopted a "No Pet" policy with strangers.
(yes, it breaks my heart with animal-loving kids...one girl told me solemnly that she wants a dog just like him when she grows up!)

When people ask to pet, I usually say, "Sorry, but he's not good with strangers." 

Rumo does like to sniff people, but since this usually leads to them reaching out to pet him on the head, I also keep him from sniffing them.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> German Shepherds are supposed to be aloof, not social. I would expect this behavior to increase as she matures. I would not try to change who she is but change your expectations of this breed.



I think it is a misconception that a social German Shepherd is a temperament fault or that social GSDs won't fight a person in a real situation. I would rather have an open, social puppy than an aloof, reactive one. You can teach some aloofness with a social puppy after they have been confident and social by teaching them to focus more on you and stopping let strangers pet the dog. The puppy we are talking about is not social and clearly has nerve issues. With maturity and bite work, a social dog will learn that everyone is not their friend and will have bonded with his handler if raised correctly.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip Blasiole said:


> I think it is a misconception that a social German Shepherd is a temperament fault or that social GSDs won't fight a person in a real situation. I would rather have an open, social puppy than an aloof, reactive one. You can teach some aloofness with a social puppy after they have been confident and social by teaching them to focus more on you and stopping let strangers pet the dog. The puppy we are talking about is not social and clearly has nerve issues. With maturity and bite work, a social dog will learn that everyone is not their friend and will have bonded with his handler if raised correctly.


There is no misconception that the breed standard calls for aloof. That would make a GSD that is overtly friendly to a stranger a fault. Aloof is supposed to be a genetic trait, that is why it is mentioned in the breed standard. It should not be a trained trait as trained traits do not pass on to a dog's progeny

"Aloof" is a trait why many people choose to own this breed, not caring for the social traits of Golden Retrievers, and should not be diminished or ignored in breeding programs. After all, the standard also calls for the natural ability to protect and guard, also genetic traits, not something that should have to be taught in this breed.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Chip Blasiole said:


> I think it is a misconception that a social German Shepherd is a temperament fault or that social GSDs won't fight a person in a real situation. I would rather have an open, social puppy than an aloof, reactive one. You can teach some aloofness with a social puppy after they have been confident and social by teaching them to focus more on you and stopping let strangers pet the dog. The puppy we are talking about is not social and clearly has nerve issues. With maturity and bite work, a social dog will learn that everyone is not their friend and will have bonded with his handler if raised correctly.


No, it’s not a misconception, it is breed standard. A social puppy is not unusual, but they usually become more aloof as they mature. Mine was very social as a puppy and would go with anyone. Now, if I let someone else work with him or walk him, he clearly prefers to be with me. Once he was the demo dog for an offleash exercise in class. He has known the trainer since he was a puppy. The trainer called him to a heel from a distance, my dog hesitated, and then ran over and heeled next to me instead of the trainer. Someone commented that my dog made a mistake, but to me, it was not a mistake. He prefers to work with me. 

Aloof means just that, distant. It does not mean reactive. The two terms and behaviors are different.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Sabis mom said:


> *Your dog has to know you have her back*. She doesn't. You need to find a good balance trainer and stop forcing her into situations where she feels like she needs to defend herself.
> Not a fan of correcting growling. She needs to learn that if she tells you she is uncomfortable you will understand.
> I taught Shadow touch. So when she is scared or uncomfortable she nudges my hand. If she has to resort to growling I screwed up!


Can you explain how you get your dog to know you have it's back?


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## Mame (Mar 13, 2018)

cloudpump said:


> Can you explain how you get your dog to know you have it's back?


Time. 

It's about the relationship, the bonding, and the trust that comes with it. Sounds like maybe you dropped the ball somewhere along the way. Giving the dog a job--training, games, usefulness, utility. Becoming a team. That's how you bond. A lot of people see their dogs as a fun buddy to take for walks, but this not that kind of dog. It's about learning body language, yours and the dog's. Your body language communicates more than your mouth. Trust building means putting yourself confidently between the things the dog fears and the things you shouldn't. Have fun together...but calm, confident, pack leader behaviors are also a must. If your dog doesn't want to socialize, accept that and give it time. The relationship you're after is not a trick you can learn, or simple, it's a whole package.

And yes, get a good trainer to help you with this. You specifically. The dog will follow.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> There is no misconception that the breed standard calls for aloof. That would make a GSD that is overtly friendly to a stranger a fault. Aloof is supposed to be a genetic trait, that is why it is mentioned in the breed standard. It should not be a trained trait as trained traits do not pass on to a dog's progeny
> 
> "Aloof" is a trait why many people choose to own this breed, not caring for the social traits of Golden Retrievers, and should not be diminished or ignored in breeding programs. After all, the standard also calls for the natural ability to protect and guard, also genetic traits, not something that should have to be taught in this breed.


I said the misconception is that an open, social dog is considered by some a temperament fault, not that the breed standard doesn't say the GSD should be aloof. Just because a GSD is social doesn't mean he is going to be a Golden Retriever when it comes to protective instincts. I see way too many nerve issues in the breed. If aloofness is genetic, is it a trait that develops with maturity, or should puppies be aloof? Are most aloof puppies confident? Should GSDs be aloof with children? Mistrust/natural suspicion is a genetic trait that some value and it has its place depending on the use of the dog. I have come to value confidence and openness in GSDs, but also the genetics for a GSD to fight a person for real. If those genetics are there, do they have to be trained, and if so, will they be passed on to the dog's progeny if he is bred? There are many possible combinations of traits that make up an individual GSD's temperament. I prefer to see pups that are not aloof or reactive. For me, it is more complicated than to say the standard calls for the breed to be aloof. Some of the best dogs out there are not aloof at all, and they will bite for real and are super confident.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

LuvShepherds said:


> No, it’s not a misconception, it is breed standard. A social puppy is not unusual, but they usually become more aloof as they mature. Mine was very social as a puppy and would go with anyone. Now, if I let someone else work with him or walk him, he clearly prefers to be with me. Once he was the demo dog for an offleash exercise in class. He has known the trainer since he was a puppy. The trainer called him to a heel from a distance, my dog hesitated, and then ran over and heeled next to me instead of the trainer. Someone commented that my dog made a mistake, but to me, it was not a mistake. He prefers to work with me.
> 
> Aloof means just that, distant. It does not mean reactive. The two terms and behaviors are different.



I agree the two terms/traits are different. My point is that often, when you see young pups that people call aloof, you are seeing insecurity and it is often paired with reactivity. It is not black and white though.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Chip Blasiole said:


> I think it is a misconception that a social German Shepherd is a temperament fault or that social GSDs won't fight a person in a real situation. I would rather have an open, social puppy than an aloof, reactive one. You can teach some aloofness with a social puppy after they have been confident and social by teaching them to focus more on you and stopping let strangers pet the dog. The puppy we are talking about is not social and clearly has nerve issues. With maturity and bite work, a social dog will learn that everyone is not their friend and will have bonded with his handler if raised correctly.


I think it is a misconception that an aloof puppy has nerve issues....lol, I have seen aloof GS that have nerve issues, just as I have seen social GS with golden retriever temperament that is absolutely faulty, imo,.......but more times than not an 8 month puppy is going to do a lot of maturing in many different areas including interactions with folks outside their pack and animals. Most owners really don’t know what they are looking at at 8 months, in terms of genetic vs nurture.
Look, if I described my current 12 months pup’s behavior at 4,6,8 months anonymously, there are many here who would have said he had nerve issues. The dog is rock solid in nerves, but was very aloof as pup, especially on LEASH; when most people assess their pups’s interactions with other dogs and people. 
This pup could have nerve issues, but I haven’t been given enough information to make that assessment, and I don’t allow my likes( in terms of what I look at) cloud my assessments. Hey but that’s my shortcoming......


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Just to clarify, I'm not saying aloofness in pups or adults is necessarily a nerve issue. I am mainly stating my preference.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Mame said:


> Time.
> 
> It's about the relationship, the bonding, and the trust that comes with it. Sounds like maybe you dropped the ball somewhere along the way. Giving the dog a job--training, games, usefulness, utility. Becoming a team. That's how you bond. A lot of people see their dogs as a fun buddy to take for walks, but this not that kind of dog. It's about learning body language, yours and the dog's. Your body language communicates more than your mouth. Trust building means putting yourself confidently between the things the dog fears and the things you shouldn't. Have fun together...but calm, confident, pack leader behaviors are also a must. If your dog doesn't want to socialize, accept that and give it time. The relationship you're after is not a trick you can learn, or simple, it's a whole package.
> 
> And yes, get a good trainer to help you with this. You specifically. The dog will follow.


That's fine and dandy, but would a civil dog know you have it's back? Would working a dog in defense be having it's back? Would a pp dog feel the same?


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

cloudpump said:


> Can you explain how you get your dog to know you have it's back?


Take him to flight school.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

cliffson1 said:


> I think it is a misconception that an aloof puppy has nerve issues....lol, I have seen aloof GS that have nerve issues, just as I have seen social GS with golden retriever temperament that is absolutely faulty, imo,.......but more times than not an 8 month puppy is going to do a lot of maturing in many different areas including interactions with folks outside their pack and animals. Most owners really don’t know what they are looking at at 8 months, in terms of genetic vs nurture.
> Look, if I described my current 12 months pup’s behavior at 4,6,8 months anonymously, there are many here who would have said he had nerve issues. The dog is rock solid in nerves, but was very aloof as pup, especially on LEASH; when most people assess their pups’s interactions with other dogs and people.
> This pup could have nerve issues, but I haven’t been given enough information to make that assessment, and I don’t allow my likes( in terms of what I look at) cloud my assessments. Hey but that’s my shortcoming......


I also think it’s true that many people assign the descriptor “aloof” to their puppy when it really IS nerves. Same goes for “protective”. Sometimes it’s really just fear. I think the subtleties in a puppy’s temperament are really mislabled far too often. I try not to assume it’s a nerve issue when people describe their puppy’s behavior, but sometimes it is blatantly obvious that it is a nerve issue. A puppy that doesn’t want to be touched by a stranger doesn’t signify a nerve issue to me. A puppy that gets whale eyes, hackles and runs for cover at the sight of strangers... well... I tend to believe that is probably weak nerves. But there is a full spectrum of nerve in between those two examples, that could mean plenty of different things.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Nerves is a super tricky subject, along with a sensitive one. A dog that runs and cowers is generally nervy. One that avoids (aloof) strangers or is reactive to them, unknown. Could be, couldn't be- depends a lot on different things. 

My husky at age ten now is truly aloof with other people and dogs, as in walk by and not even acknowledge. I once asked a helper try to "activate" him... he wasn't scared or nervous by it, he just wanted to play and was a bit confused- tried to lick the helper's face eventually. It was actually super interesting, if you want to see genetics at work, try this, it's kind of cool. My husky is absolutely not cut out (or bred for) protection work, but neither is he nervy. So there's that, too. A dog of a different breed that isn't suitable for protection work, isn't a nerve bag if he's typical for the breed... but protection is part of the GSD temperament. So what isn't nerves in a husky, may be in a GSD. 

Nerves are complicated. 

I personally like an aloof dog who is very social (lap dog) with those he/she knows, when it comes to shepherds. 

Aggression to known family, or aggression that is unpredictable, is a whole 'nother ballgame, and one that I'm not sure I could tolerate in a personal dog.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip Blasiole said:


> I said the misconception is that an open, social dog is considered by some a temperament fault, not that the breed standard doesn't say the GSD should be aloof. Just because a GSD is social doesn't mean he is going to be a Golden Retriever when it comes to protective instincts. I see way too many nerve issues in the breed. If aloofness is genetic, is it a trait that develops with maturity, or should puppies be aloof? Are most aloof puppies confident? Should GSDs be aloof with children? Mistrust/natural suspicion is a genetic trait that some value and it has its place depending on the use of the dog. I have come to value confidence and openness in GSDs, but also the genetics for a GSD to fight a person for real. If those genetics are there, do they have to be trained, and if so, will they be passed on to the dog's progeny if he is bred? There are many possible combinations of traits that make up an individual GSD's temperament. I prefer to see pups that are not aloof or reactive. For me, it is more complicated than to say the standard calls for the breed to be aloof. Some of the best dogs out there are not aloof at all, and they will bite for real and are super confident.


The breed standard calls for aloof and if something deviates from the standard such as in this case openly friendly, then it is a fault. When a breed's standard calls for aloof, a purchaser should expect their puppy to be or become aloof. 

I never said or implied that a dog that is social is genetically linked to a dog that lacks protective instincts. I never stated that this breed doesn't have nerve issues. Especially, I have not stated or implied that a dog with bad nerves is representative of the standard (any more than an adult GSD openly social with strangers would be). 

I have seen aloof puppies, and I have seen more social puppies mature into aloof adults ...without training. If a GSD is well bred, you should not have to train what should innately be already there.

You ask if a GSD should be aloof to children. Does the breed standard state that a GSD should not be aloof with children? Are children people? Yes? No? Are you saying that a GSD that doesn't fawn on children is against the breed standard? Where does it say that? Should a dog be able to distinguish between an adult size child and an adult? What about a 13 year old? What if that 13 year old was 6' tall? When does a child stop being a child? How about a child and a midget? Yes, it is complicated. 

Mistrust and suspicion do not equate to a lack of confidence, neither is social openness genetically linked to confidence, ask any Golden Retriver owner as that is a breed rife with some serious nerve issues as well, while remaining genetically open and social. 

I have had dogs from both camps, open and social, (one with bad nerves) and you can have them. I ultimately rehomed mine as they were more of a nuisance than anything else. I have had aloof dogs with bad nerves, but none were reactive. I kept and enjoyed them although I never expected much out of them. They weren't exemplary GSDs but they certainly weren't a nuisance either. 

Your choices and preferences are exactly that, same as anybody else on here. The bottom line is that the standard is the genetic blue print of the breed. If it calls for erect ears, then we should expect them. If it calls for the natural ability to protect and guard, then the dog should do so. If the standard calls for a medium sized dog that weighs between 48#s - 88#s, we should not expect giant sized dogs weighing 100+s. If the standard calls for aloof, then we should expect naturally aloof dogs. 

This is not a breed that is supposed to be a community dog, everybody's friend. Being aloof is one of this breed's flagship traits that many sport breeders are either ignoring or shunning. It does not benefit the breed and only serves to pander to some people's preferences regardless of the breed standard not much different than those who pander to the black and red dog fan clubs. There is nothing enjoyable about a GSD that helps pack up the truck with its owner's belongings when the house is being robbed, or a GSD that happily gets into that same truck and rides away with his new "owner", nor should this be considered expected GSD behavior according to the breed standard. 

Some of the best dogs out there in your opinion, might be those who are friendly, confident and will bite for real but the breed standard calls for the best dogs to be aloof, confident and to bite for real. I guess the breed stewards disagree with you as well as many who appreciate the whole GSD package and not just selective traits that some find appealing.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Muskeg said:


> Nerves is a super tricky subject, along with a sensitive one. A dog that runs and cowers is generally nervy. *One that avoids (aloof) strangers or is reactive to them, unknown.* Could be, couldn't be- depends a lot on different things.
> 
> My husky at age ten now is truly aloof with other people and dogs, as in walk by and not even acknowledge. I once asked a helper try to "activate" him... he wasn't scared or nervous by it, he just wanted to play and was a bit confused- tried to lick the helper's face eventually. It was actually super interesting, if you want to see genetics at work, try this, it's kind of cool. My husky is absolutely not cut out (or bred for) protection work, but neither is he nervy. So there's that, too. A dog of a different breed that isn't suitable for protection work, isn't a nerve bag if he's typical for the breed... but protection is part of the GSD temperament. So what isn't nerves in a husky, may be in a GSD.
> 
> ...


I don't agree with the definition of the term aloof as it is used here. Aloof has nothing whatsoever to do with avoidance or reactivity. The way I define aloof in a GSD is a dog that has situational awareness, has assessed a non threat, and then chooses to ignore and react to the person(s) as if that person(s) is simply not present.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

"Horrand embodied for the enthusiasts of that time the fulfillment of their fondest dreams. He was big for that period, between 24" and 24 1/2", even for the present day a good medium size, with powerful frame, beautiful lines, and a nobly formed head. Clean and sinewy in build, the entire dog was one live wire. His character was on a par with his exterior qualities; marvelous in his obedient fidelity to his master, and above all else, the straight forward nature of a gentleman with a boundless zest for living. Although untrained in puppy hood, nevertheless obedient to the slightest nod when at this master's side; but when left to himself, the maddest rascal, the wildest ruffian and incorrigible provoker of strife. Never idle, always on the go;* well disposed to harmless people, but no cringer, mad about children and always in love. *What could not have been the accomplishments of such a dog if we, at that time, had only had military or police service training? His faults were the failings of his upbringing, never of his stock. He suffered from a superfluity of unemployed energy, for he was in Heaven when someone was occupied with him and was then the most tractable of dog."
~Captain von Stephanitz
Originator of the breed


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## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> "Horrand embodied for the enthusiasts of that time the fulfillment of their fondest dreams. He was big for that period, between 24" and 24 1/2", even for the present day a good medium size, with powerful frame, beautiful lines, and a nobly formed head. Clean and sinewy in build, the entire dog was one live wire. His character was on a par with his exterior qualities; marvelous in his obedient fidelity to his master, and above all else, the straight forward nature of a gentleman with a boundless zest for living. Although untrained in puppy hood, nevertheless obedient to the slightest nod when at this master's side; but when left to himself, the maddest rascal, the wildest ruffian and incorrigible provoker of strife. Never idle, always on the go;* well disposed to harmless people, but no cringer, mad about children and always in love. *What could not have been the accomplishments of such a dog if we, at that time, had only had military or police service training? His faults were the failings of his upbringing, never of his stock. He suffered from a superfluity of unemployed energy, for he was in Heaven when someone was occupied with him and was then the most tractable of dog."
> ~Captain von Stephanitz
> Originator of the breed


Where can I get one like this? I SO remember this passage from the book. sigh......


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

So is the breed standard the gold standard, and who are these breed stewards? Is it USCA, the SV, the GSD Club of America, all of which have probably done more harm than good to the breed as a working dog. I get your point that all dogs like people, are individuals and you can't paint them with a broad brush stroke based on one or two traits. For me, ideally, I like to see an open, confident pup who is not aloof and who matures into having a strong bond with his handler, has solid nerves and is clear headed. The old DDR Wertmessziffern rated sharpness and IMO, the best rating was a 5-"The dog is relaxed and friendly but violent when provoked." That doesn't sound like aloofness. Sabis mom cited the breed's founder saying the first registered GSD was "always in love." That doesn't sound like aloofness either. With the breed having so many nerve issues, I lean toward a more open temperament in pups because I think it increases the odds of getting a dog with good nerves. That doesn't mean aloof pups all have nerve issues and all open pups don't. It is just a way of stacking the deck.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I don't know, I guess those who breed for what the GSD is meant to be vs what they want it to be would be the breed stewards.

Odd that you like a strong bond with a dog yet like an open and social dog. If anything, those are two traits that don't really go hand in hand in this breed and in others where dogs are highly social. That is another reason I prize a dog that is aloof, I love the deep bond and the loyalty that comes attached to it that seems to be lacking in highly social dogs or breeds.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

When I look at a dog or a puppy I want to see open and honest responses. I am ok with them being afraid or wary of new things, I just want to see a willingness. 
But... My perfect dog is not your perfect dog. I want the go anywhere, try anything dog. I could care less about deep, full bites. I need a natural curiosity and a certain devil may care attitude. Two erect ears and color and coat length are meaningless. Natural alertness and adaptability are for me. 
I always remember looking at patrol dog prospects and being told "pick the one with more not less, because you can train it down but you can't train it up"


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I don't know, I guess those who breed for what the GSD is meant to be vs what they want it to be would be the breed stewards.
> 
> Odd that you like a strong bond with a dog yet like an open and social dog. If anything, those are two traits that don't really go hand in hand in this breed and in others where dogs are highly social. That is another reason I prize a dog that is aloof, I love the deep bond and the loyalty that comes attached to it that seems to be lacking in highly social dogs or breeds.


I really hope that this question is not taken the wrong way. But what exactly does social mean to you? To me, in this breed, social means that a dog will accept other people/friendly strangers, but is not fawning all over them trying to get attention. My girl is what I would consider more on the social end of the spectrum, but she does not seek attention from people she does not know. She is definitely focused on me, but if a stranger were to slip past me and pet her, I wouldn’t worry about her reaction. And if a nice person asked to pet her, she would accept it if I allowed it. But I still also consider her to be aloof, as she has no need or desire to meet strangers on the street. Just curious how you define social, as many people probably think social has to equate “acts like a Golden”.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Chip Blasiole said:


> So is the breed standard the gold standard, and who are these breed stewards? Is it USCA, the SV, the GSD Club of America, all of which have probably done more harm than good to the breed as a working dog. I get your point that all dogs like people, are individuals and you can't paint them with a broad brush stroke based on one or two traits. For me, ideally, I like to see an open, confident pup who is not aloof and who matures into having a strong bond with his handler, has solid nerves and is clear headed. The old DDR Wertmessziffern rated sharpness and IMO, the best rating was a 5-"The dog is relaxed and friendly but violent when provoked." That doesn't sound like aloofness. Sabis mom cited the breed's founder saying the first registered GSD was "always in love." That doesn't sound like aloofness either. With the breed having so many nerve issues, I lean toward a more open temperament in pups because I think it increases the odds of getting a dog with good nerves. That doesn't mean aloof pups all have nerve issues and all open pups don't. It is just a way of stacking the deck.


And the majority of DDR dogs were aloof, they were not known for open, friendly dogs, ....just sayin!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

GypsyGhost said:


> I really hope that this question is not taken the wrong way. But what exactly does social mean to you? To me, in this breed, social means that a dog will accept other people/friendly strangers, but is not fawning all over them trying to get attention. My girl is what I would consider more on the social end of the spectrum, but she does not seek attention from people she does not know. She is definitely focused on me, but if a stranger were to slip past me and pet her, I wouldn’t worry about her reaction. And if a nice person asked to pet her, she would accept it if I allowed it. But I still also consider her to be aloof, as she has no need or desire to meet strangers on the street. Just curious how you define social, as many people probably think social has to equate “acts like a Golden”.


I would say social is along the lines of welcoming or seeking interaction with strangers whereas aloof could be defined as tolerating and accepting unwanted overtures from strangers. Aloof by no means describes a dog that cannot be safely taken out in public.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

GypsyGhost said:


> I really hope that this question is not taken the wrong way. But what exactly does social mean to you? To me, in this breed, social means that a dog will accept other people/friendly strangers, but is not fawning all over them trying to get attention. My girl is what I would consider more on the social end of the spectrum, but she does not seek attention from people she does not know. She is definitely focused on me, but if a stranger were to slip past me and pet her, I wouldn’t worry about her reaction. And if a nice person asked to pet her, she would accept it if I allowed it. But I still also consider her to be aloof, as she has no need or desire to meet strangers on the street. Just curious how you define social, as many people probably think social has to equate “acts like a Golden”.


Aloof like anything else has a wide spectrum....but we are deviating from the OP. We are talking about an eight month puppy, now my experience is that almost all dogs as they grow from puppy to adolescents to adults they mature in a lot of areas....from the limited description given by the OP I fail to see how folks cannot determine its nerves as opposed to lack of maturity....I really don’t think it’s fair to judge the pup by personal preferences, but rather by reasonable expectations given information and age at time of post.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I don't know, I guess those who breed for what the GSD is meant to be vs what they want it to be would be the breed stewards.
> 
> Odd that you like a strong bond with a dog yet like an open and social dog. If anything, those are two traits that don't really go hand in hand in this breed and in others where dogs are highly social. That is another reason I prize a dog that is aloof, I love the deep bond and the loyalty that comes attached to it that seems to be lacking in highly social dogs or breeds.


A) I would assume that the founder of the breed knew what he wanted said breed to be.
B) I owned a very social dog and have never had a dog more bonded. I was her absolute world but being the queen she was perfectly willing to soak up her due admiration from JQP.

And all children belonged to her anyway. Lol.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

My Whippets were aloof; not caring whether someone approached them or not so I considered them socially adapted since they were stranger-neutral. I see that in my GSDs as well. They are appropriately socialized and can be petted when I allow it. They don't seem to care. Griff is still young so he is quietly inquisitive which I like. Deja doesn't care and is neutral. I want them to allow to being (briefly!) petted to show people the other side of their misconception about the breed. When people go like,"ohhhh, he is so cuuuuuute! Can I pet your puppeeeeeee?????" in a high pitch whiney tone, I don't allow it, nor when more than two people approach.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

cliffson1 said:


> Aloof like anything else has a wide spectrum....but we are deviating from the OP. We are talking about an eight month puppy, now my experience is that almost all dogs as they grow from puppy to adolescents to adults they mature in a lot of areas....from the limited description given by the OP I fail to see how folks cannot determine its nerves as opposed to lack of maturity....I really don’t think it’s fair to judge the pup by personal preferences, but rather by reasonable expectations given information and age at time of post.


I never said I thought it was a matruity issue for the OP’s dog. It does sound like a nerve issue to me, as well. I was just looking for clarification as to how another member defined social.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I think I added an "avoid" in there that was taken the wrong way. When I say aloof I mean the dog sees, acknowledges, but doesn't seek out either positive or negative interactions with strangers. My husky who is aloof, just walks on by people- it's not that he's ignoring them- he certainly knows they are there- but he doesn't seek out an interaction. If someone pats him, he'll interact normally. 

My malinois tend toward see and be suspicious initially- just as their knee-jerk reaction. This can be tuned/changed to aloof with proper training and socialization. They do not run or cower... like ever.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Sabis mom said:


> A) I would assume that the founder of the breed knew what he wanted said breed to be.
> B) I owned a very social dog and have never had a dog more bonded. I was her absolute world but being the queen she was perfectly willing to soak up her due admiration from JQP.
> 
> And all children belonged to her anyway. Lol.


1) I would assume that the founder knew what he wanted said breed to be and that is why within a year or two after recognition he turned to police and military work for this breed vs a family pet that would thrive in just any home.

2) There will always be a dog here and there that is an outlier. People have long chosen GSDs due to their aloofness, which goes hand in hand with their loyalty and bonding. 

LuvShepherds' story beautifully illustrated the aloofness and loyalty of this breed. 

ALL of the very social dog's I have ever encountered, regardless of breed, viewed their owners as nothing much more than a poo shoveler. 

Most shelter workers will also agree that the higher the degree of sociability goes hand in hand with dogs that thrive in shelter settings because it matters little to them where the human attention derives, just that it does, while dogs who are more aloof struggle as they are deeply bonded to their families and stranger attention is not welcome.

IME, the greater the degree of sociability is diametrically opposed with a marked decrease in loyalty and bonding. Like I stated in a previous post, I rehomed both of my dogs that were highly sociable, as both dogs did not seem capable of bonding not to mention letting them out in the yard or taking them in public created nothing but a three ring circus, but that's another story. LOL


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> 1) I would assume that the founder knew what he wanted said breed to be and that is why within a year or two after recognition he turned to police and military work for this breed vs a family pet that would thrive in just any home.
> 
> 2) There will always be a dog here and there that is an outlier. People have long chosen GSDs due to their aloofness, which goes hand in hand with their loyalty and bonding.
> 
> ...



We can agree to disagree. I often wondered if Sabi made herself the focus due to my issues with anxiety. I was always ok in uniform but suffered major panic attacks with pressure in social settings. She seriously adored small children though and was not above trying to steal them. Lol. Either way Bud was definitely aloof, almost to the point of aggression but controllable certainly.
And I totally agree that in general social dogs do better in shelters, with some exceptions. Great Danes suffer horribly.
And I was under the impression that the focus of the breeds work shifted due to a rise in industrialization, and the decline in demand for herders. I seem to remember something he was quoted as saying to that effect. If the breed was to survive it had to adapt. He intended the breed to be a jack of all trades anyway, and did specifically address the fact that they were intended to be good at home, with family and never to be kept as kennel dogs.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I would say social is along the lines of welcoming or seeking interaction with strangers whereas aloof could be defined as tolerating and accepting unwanted overtures from strangers. Aloof by no means describes a dog that cannot be safely taken out in public.


Well shoot. Mine is a pretty friendly dog. She’s selectively reserved but is generally pretty open. I mean, if you’re a human or dog, she is. Not if you’re a rabbit or squirrel. That rabbit she killed in the backyard would probably not have rated my dog as friendly. But she is usually pretty happy to meet you. (Happier if you have treats, but she will probably be pleased to make your acquaintance regardless if I’ve deemed you friendly.) On the other hand, she’s also pretty oriented to us; I don’t ever think she will pay attention to a stranger over me. We are the ones she looks to for guidance and cues.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

WateryTart said:


> Well shoot. Mine is a pretty friendly dog. She’s selectively reserved but is generally pretty open. I mean, if you’re a human or dog, she is. Not if you’re a rabbit or squirrel. That rabbit she killed in the backyard would probably not have rated my dog as friendly. But she is usually pretty happy to meet you. (Happier if you have treats, but she will probably be pleased to make your acquaintance regardless if I’ve deemed you friendly.) On the other hand, she’s also pretty oriented to us; I don’t ever think she will pay attention to a stranger over me. We are the ones she looks to for guidance and cues.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well shoot! Mine ignore people, most dogs, and just cast an inquisitive eye and nose at rabbits and squirrels... and they think I am the cat's meow! They came out of the box like that, no training involved. 

Seems like sociability as you define it comes with a heavy price tag such as having to train the dog to ignore strangers, train it not to take food from strangers, train it to have to look to you for cues as to whether they can or should be social or not every time you meet a stranger, train it not to kill passive, peaceable wildlife... even possibly train the dog to prefer the owner over a stranger... or at least act like it. 

Naw, I'll stick to my aloof dogs. There is a reason I choose to own GSDs and aloof is definitely one of them. I have other things I would rather be doing with them rather than spend so much time training them how to act with strangers. Ignore, naturally, is just fine with me.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

My first GSD was very social but was DA toward small dogs. I had young children, so we wanted a friendlier dog, but we had two unexpected problems. That dog would not bark if a stranger walked in. That meant the dog was not protective at all. The dog also loved everyone, so we never had the one on one bond I have had with dogs since then. So we had a very beautiful Golden type German Shepherd. Since then, I have selected dogs, either from breeders or rescues that were more aloof and closer to standard and would make good watch dogs. I don’t want my dogs going up to every stranger. If I eventually get a therapy dog and want to stick with the same breed, I will pay my trainer to help me select a dog that can do both. If I can’t find one, I may get one dog of a different breed or change my plans.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

This has been bugging me since this started on it's current track. People are saying aloof is breed standard, I could not recall that being anywhere in the breed standard. 

I was correct, it's not.

The German Shepherd Dog must be, in its essential image, well-balanced, firm in nerves, self-confident, *absolutely calm and impartial, and (except in tempting situations) amiable*. He must possess courage, willingness to fight, and hardness, in order to be suitable as companion, watchdog, protector, service dog, and guardian.

German Shepherds » SV Standard

Impartial is not aloof and amiable is certainly not aloof.

im·par·tial (ĭm-pär′shəl)
adj.
Not partial or biased; unprejudiced. See Synonyms at fair1.

a·loof (ə-lo͞of′)
adj.
1. Emotionally reserved or indifferent: an aloof manner.
2. Distant or uninvolved: remained aloof from political movements.


a·mi·a·ble (ā′mē-ə-bəl)
adj.
1. Friendly and agreeable in disposition; good-natured and likable.
2. Cordial; sociable; congenial: an amiable gathering.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

https://images.akc.org/pdf/breeds/standards/GermanShepherdDog.pdf

*Temperament*

The breed has a distinct personality marked by direct and fearless, but not hostile, expression, self-confidence and a certain aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships. The dog must be approachable, quietly standing its ground and showing confidence and willingness to meet overtures without itself making them. It is poised, but when the occasion demands, eager and alert; both fit and willing to serve in its capacity as companion, watchdog, blind leader, herding dog, or guardian, whichever the circumstance may demand. The dog must not be timid, shrinking behind its master or handler, it should not be nervous, looking about or upward with anxious expression or showing nervous reactions, such as tucking of tail, to strange sounds or sights. Lack of confidence under any surroundings is not typical of good character. Any of the above deficiencies in character which indicate shyness must be penalized as very serious faults and any dog exhibiting pronounced indications of these must be excused from the ring. It must be possible for the judge to observe teeth and to determine that both testicles are descended. Any dog that attempts to bite the judge must be disqualified. The ideal dog is a working animal with an incorruptible character combined with body and gait suitable for the arduous work that constitutes its primary purpose.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

This thread got me thinking about my own dogs when they are out and about. 

At dog shows or at the park, when people come up and want to see my dogs, they are usually disappointed. If I tell the dogs to say hi, they will just stand there and let the person give them a pat, then they deliberately look away as if to dismiss that person. There's no interaction, no tail wagging or asking for more attention. UNLESS you are a kid. Kids are different. They generally have snacks and love to throw a ball. Kids are great. 

My dogs ignore other dogs. They are taught early on that dogs aren't anything you need to concern yourself over. Walk by, no staring, and mind your own business. Easily learned at dog shows. 

LuvShepherds story reminded me of Sage. If I wasn't in the room, then she was pretty amenable to hanging out with whoever was around. But the minute we were together, she ignored everyone. No responding to her name or offer of a treat, nothing. She only listened to me. It aggravated everyone, but I liked it.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

So the AKC and CKC both state aloofness but the SV says entirely the opposite and even the CKC says that the dog should be willing to accept overtures without fawning.

The breed has a distinct personality marked by a direct and fearless, but not hostile, expression, and self-confidence and a certain aloofness which does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships. The Shepherd Dog is not one that fawns upon every new acquaintance. At the same time, it should be approachable, quietly standing its ground and showing confidence and a willingness to meet overtures without itself making them. It should be poised, but when the occasion demands, eager and alert, both fit and willing to serve in any capacity as companion, watch dog, blind leader, herding dog or guardian; whichever the circumstances may demand.

https://www.ckc.ca/CanadianKennelClub/media/Breed-Standards/Group 7/German-Shepherd-Dog.pdf

Since the SV is the standard for the breed I would deduce that like everything else North Americans have simply decided that the breed should be altered to suit.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

As it was explained to me, the SV lost the conveyance of aloofness simply through translation.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Well shoot! Mine ignore people, most dogs, and just cast an inquisitive eye and nose at rabbits and squirrels... and they think I am the cat's meow! They came out of the box like that, no training involved.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wasn’t being sarcastic. I know my dog sometimes, maybe even often, tips farther toward friendliness vs aloofness. It isn’t generally a problem in that she’s a calm, laidback pet, but I freely acknowledge that she isn’t as reserved with humans and dogs as maybe she should be. Is she aggressive with them, or behaving problematically in their presence? No. I don’t allow that, she’s well trained. But she’s less reserved than one might expect, and happier to meet people than one might expect. I was being perfectly serious in my “well shoot.”


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

For anybody that might be interested, this was brought to my attention. It is from The German Shepherd Dog In Word and Picture by V. Stephanitz, translated by J. Schwabacher, published in 1923. There goes that dirty word again, translated. I guess it all depends on the translators interpretation. 

Helpful Hint: Aloof (definition): Reserved and remote.

"The shepherd dog should appear to the observer straightforward, bold, open, *but reserved*, his eye should not flinch, nor avoid the gaze of the inspector moodily or in craven fear."

So there you have it, from Max himself, via a translator. LOL


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

So we could argue translations all night. Lol. Or not.
I don't want a dog that rushes to great everything with exuberance. But neither do I enjoy a dog that is rude. I think the general tone is that the dog should not be bonding with strangers over cookies and frisbee but should be at ease and open to neutral strangers. 
So perhaps aloof is a strong word. 
And children are specifically addressed a number of times. These dogs are in fact from inception supposed to be good with children. They were always intended to be family companions regardless of their jobs.
He says in at least one book that the dog should be capable of work as well as entertaining the family.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

The different variations of interpretation of the breed standard is in part why we see multiple lines today. There are other factors at play in those divisions, but if no one can agree on the "directions" we are gonna have problems. :smile2:


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Some not uncommon tests when police dog handlers are looking at green dogs to purchase, look for traits that are counter to aloofness. They want to see a dog that will engage with a tug with a stranger. They like to see a dog that is comfortable being handled by an unfamiliar/capable handler. Some want to see a dog that allows an unfamiliar evaluator to pick up and carry the dog with little to no resistance. They look for dogs that tolerate or welcome a variety of people approaching the dog. They look for a dog that is able to work around unfamiliar people without being distracted.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> 1) I would assume that the founder knew what he wanted said breed to be and that is why within a year or two after recognition he turned to police and military work for this breed vs a family pet that would thrive in just any home.



I think von Stephanitz turned to promoting his dogs for military and police because, being originally used as herding dogs (not pets), there was a big decline in the need for herding dogs and he believed the working abilities of the breed would decline unless they were put to other uses. Plus, he was a cavalry officer/soldier. Then schutzhund was developed as a breed worthiness test which focused on man work instead of herding.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Another thing to consider is how the relationship between man and dog developed. It wasn't via aloofness. I don't have a problem with a GSD being aloof as long as the confidence is there. Like all traits and thresholds, they are on a continuum. Sometimes, IMO, aloofness is masking insecurity. And I don't think sociability is correlated with bonding deficits.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I also believe there is overlap in traits and it is not always easy to read a dog's emotional state. For example is an aloof GSD simply aloof, or does his also possess some mistrust. If mistrust is a component of aloofness in some dogs, is the dog aloof, mistrustful, yet confident, or is their an element of thin nerves as a catalyst for the aloofness and mistrust. With a social dog who is confident with strong defensive aggression and solid nerves, the lack of aloofness eliminates the possible likelihood of underlying insecurities.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

GypsyGhost said:


> I never said I thought it was a matruity issue for the OP’s dog. It does sound like a nerve issue to me, as well. I was just looking for clarification as to how another member defined social.


I’m very sorry , I did not proofread my post. I MEANT to say I don’t know how people CAN determine it is a nerve issue with the age and information given.....unless you know the dog personally.


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## Mame (Mar 13, 2018)

I'm green on subjects like these and have a question...

Looking at the etymology of aloof (because dictionaries change over centuries as languages evolve): mid 16th century: from a-2 (*expressing direction*) + luff. The term was originally an adverb in nautical use, meaning ‘away and to windward!,’ i.e., with the ship's head kept close to the wind away from a lee shore, etc., toward which it *might otherwise drift*. From this arose the sense ‘at a distance’ literally or figuratively.

Bolding by me.

I feel as though a working dog, especially one meant for the fields most discussed, would need a degree of disinterest in order to be trained to stay on task. Having a dog that can stand at a gate and ignore protesters, or harmless people wandering past a flock of sheep, and also not straying with its loyalty and obedience to any degree, seems like the desired outcome while at work. Social skills with family and friends outside of the job seems like a separate issue from ignoring strangers--and ignoring them without any aggressive or fearful undertones, of course. So is this not the purpose for breeding this type of trait into the dog? Does it not need a certain degree of detachment for performance purposes? I'm just confused why anyone would think aloof is not a positive trait in a breed meant to have the quality, specifically because of the tasks it's meant for.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

cliffson1 said:


> I’m very sorry , I did not proofread my post. I MEANT to say I don’t know how people CAN determine it is a nerve issue with the age and information given.....unless you know the dog personally.


True. There’s no way to tell 100% that it is nerves over the internet. But it’s also unwise for this owner to assume it is not nerves and continue down the path they are on. It sounds like the puppy had a rough start, and now it’s being forced into situations where the owner is not in charge while the dog is displaying signs of being uncomfortable. The owner also bothers the dog while it is eating (sticking hand in food dish), so it’s clear, at least to me, that they need help outside the scope of the internet. While genetics certainly play a huge part in what a dog’s temperament ends up being, there is also that pesky “nurture” thing. I do believe some people create issues that may not otherwise have been present. OP, I do hope you have or find a good trainer that can help you in person.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

dogfaeries said:


> This thread got me thinking about my own dogs when they are out and about.
> 
> At dog shows or at the park, when people come up and want to see my dogs, they are usually disappointed. If I tell the dogs to say hi, they will just stand there and let the person give them a pat, then they deliberately look away as if to dismiss that person. There's no interaction, no tail wagging or asking for more attention. UNLESS you are a kid. Kids are different. They generally have snacks and love to throw a ball. Kids are great.
> 
> ...


This is my interpretation of aloof. Can be pet, but not called off his handler. Main focus is on handler, but is neutral to advances by non threats, mildly friendly. My dog was showing a lot of suspicion and was sounding off warnings at a young age. He is becoming very confident and I have not seen that behavior since. I know it's there though. Have to keep the structure.

Small kids though, the 13 and under crowd....loves little kids. Full body wiggle. The kids on my block (also including my own 3) have helped enormously with his long down for BH. After he achieves it, we do the BH pattern as we would at trial...then he gets to play football or soccer with all the kids on my dead end. The kids are respectful and so is he. However they are never unsupervised. 

As far as older kids/kids unknown to us/adults.. just have to accept that it is "in there" no matter how much you can bury it through training. Goal is it only comes out on the field or of course, you know, the rare real occasion that we hope never happens. Once you are inner circle with him, you are golden. I can have a friend come over and let him out and they get proper greetings. I will always use protocol of proper introductions with new people though. I know some people like it and beam with pride, but I find it to negative if my dog is warning off benign people in public. He is containing his barking lunge at strangers through training. It is in him though, so I am always mindful of it. Heck I didn't smoke for 14 years then one day in my 40s at a particularly good party I lapsed lol I quit again of course...but, it's in there. 



GypsyGhost said:


> True. There’s no way to tell 100% that it is nerves over the internet. But it’s also unwise for this owner to assume it is not nerves and continue down the path they are on. It sounds like the puppy had a rough start, and now it’s being forced into situations where the owner is not in charge while the dog is displaying signs of being uncomfortable. The owner also bothers the dog while it is eating (sticking hand in food dish), so it’s clear, at least to me, that they need help outside the scope of the internet. While genetics certainly play a huge part in what a dog’s temperament ends up being, there is also that pesky “nurture” thing. I do believe some people create issues that may not otherwise have been present. OP, I do hope you have or find a good trainer that can help you in person.


I always say this on every post of this nature. We can make suppositions, we can help by rambling education threads and story sharing like this one..but experienced people here have IMO a responsibility to preface any advice with "get a breed specific trainer, we cant say for sure if you are even using proper terms to describe this, someone needs eyes on it" 

On another thread I had used a personal anecdote. I had this friend that had described her dog, her dogs training, etc with such blinding inaccuracy it took like a week for me to be able to chuckle about it after I finally met him. She said she had a balanced trainer, he got excited to meet people (some jumping, but he was young yada yada), but they were making great headway, and her 16 year old son was learning to be quite the handler! Dog was almost ready for CGC...

Well the day I finally met him..she cracked the door. He nearly killed her busting out. He tackled my at the time 10 year old daughter aggressively playing and then proceeded to hump her HARD. He was hurting her. He was a huge labradoodle. I was pulling on him to try and get him off my child. 16 year old comes running out, is big and strong enough to pull the dog off. Proceeds to pin his dog in like a wrestling hold, then starts vigorously humping the dog back, while chastising him.

I swear on my first born, it was just like that, and they said the trainer preferred humping to alpha rolling. Exact words.

Sometimes you have to see it to see the reality of it lol


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

A trainer is a good important also helps you with timing and stuff. No one can tell on the internet growing pups do have their moments. 

A gsd can be open and greet with a smile and still be aloof. I have not yet met a german shepherd who resembled a golden retriever and blindly loved someone. I have had dogs with different degrees of aloofness with strangers. The aloofness develops as a pup matures. I have had dogs that were just plain nosey. Karat our first gsd did not interact with strange dogs or even dogs that were part of the house. They did not exist to him nor did strangers. He was super aloof. You would never catch having fun with another dog even if that dog livedunder the same roof. He would use a stranger for a game of fetch and oddly would jump into anyone’s car if the door was open lol! With strangers he was easy in the fact you can bring construction workers in the house, service people and he would just lay in his spot and watch them calmly. - Luna would get a whiff and lie down. Max I would just put away he is dog who is super nosey and watchful. All friendly with new and old close friends and close family members with varying degrees with max being on the higher end of that degree wanting to be in the middle of it all. I have and had strong bonds with all of them.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Mame said:


> I'm green on subjects like these and have a question...
> 
> Looking at the etymology of aloof (because dictionaries change over centuries as languages evolve): mid 16th century: from a-2 (*expressing direction*) + luff. The term was originally an adverb in nautical use, meaning ‘away and to windward!,’ i.e., with the ship's head kept close to the wind away from a lee shore, etc., toward which it *might otherwise drift*. From this arose the sense ‘at a distance’ literally or figuratively.
> 
> ...



"The breed has a distinct personality marked by direct and fearless, but not hostile, expression, self-confidence and a certain aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships."
I think unsound temperament is a much more serious problem than a lack of aloofness, as long as the dog has strong drives and nerves.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Some not uncommon tests when police dog handlers are looking at green dogs to purchase, look for traits that are counter to aloofness. They want to see a dog that will engage with a tug with a stranger. They like to see a dog that is comfortable being handled by an unfamiliar/capable handler. Some want to see a dog that allows an unfamiliar evaluator to pick up and carry the dog with little to no resistance. They look for dogs that tolerate or welcome a variety of people approaching the dog. They look for a dog that is able to work around unfamiliar people without being distracted.



I know some smaller departments are moving away from dogs with higher defense finding them to be more of a liability than they care to take on when their needs lie primarily in narcotics detection and perhaps tracking a lost child. Maybe this is one of the reasons some departments are moving away from using German Shepherds. I suspect there are many other breeds better suited to perform in those capacities. 

The question remains, should we change the breed to accommodate the changing needs or should a breed that is better suited be selected? I guess I am preaching to the choir but the GSD is supposed to be a jack of all trades, master of none, capable of performing in any and all venues. Should the GSD lose its versatility and become specialized?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I know some smaller departments are moving away from dogs with higher defense finding them to be more of a liability than they care to take on when their needs lie primarily in narcotics detection and perhaps tracking a lost child. Maybe this is one of the reasons some departments are moving away from using German Shepherds. I suspect there are many other breeds better suited to perform in those capacities.
> 
> The question remains, should we change the breed to accommodate the changing needs or should a breed that is better suited be selected? I guess I am preaching to the choir but the GSD is supposed to be a jack of all trades, master of none, capable of performing in any and all venues. Should the GSD lose its versatility and become specialized?


The GS should never lose its versatility, that is paramount to its legacy. BUT, there is a wide scope of temperaments that are acceptable to allow the dog to be able to be versatile. Still, we always must judge acceptable by functionality to do the tasks that made it the jack of all trades. The nature of the tests ( Herding, Schutzhund) that the originators used to assess the dog shows the scope of acceptable temperaments and tasks expected with adequate training. So to my way of thinking, bold and confident is good as is aloof and suspicious, and many variations in between. They all can be functional with training .....extreme shyness or extreme aggression is faulty to me if the training cannot modify or neutralize the extremity. I have no personal preference for type, as I try to look at each dog impartially in terms of this wide scope.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

" GSD Breed Standard Temperament " I like this. German Shepherd Breed Standard

The breed has a distinct personality marked by direct and fearless, but not hostile, expression, self-confidence and a certain aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships. The dog must be approachable, quietly standing its ground and showing confidence and willingness to meet overtures without itself making them. It is poised, but when the occasion demands, eager and alert; both fit and willing to serve in its capacity as companion, watchdog, blind leader, herding dog, or guardian, whichever the circumstance may demand. The dog must not be timid, shrinking behind its master or handler, it should not be nervous, looking about or upward with anxious expression or showing nervous reactions, such as tucking of tail, to strange sounds or sights. Lack of confidence under any surroundings is not typical of good character. Any of the above deficiencies in character which indicate shyness must be penalized as very serious faults and any dog exhibiting pronounced indications of these must be excused from the ring. It must be possible for the judge to observe teeth and to determine that both testicles are descended. Any dog that attempts to bite the judge must be disqualified. The ideal dog is a working animal with an incorruptible character combined with body and gait suitable for the arduous work that constitutes its primary purpose.

Edit: I see Luvs Shepherds posted this 2 pages ago. When Inga was a little wiggly puppy she loved everyone. Now- not so much. 

If someone comes up to this ranch she barks the big girl bark at them from within her kennel. She will play with their children if invited to play and I am also playing. In town and on leash, she looks to me to see what my take in on a stranger and does not try to approach on her own. If this is aloof, I like it.


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