# Vet denied space in homeless shelter because of his Service Dog



## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

From combat to a parking lot | The Kennebec Journal, Augusta, ME



> He and his service dog, Mabel, a German shepherd/Lab mix, sleep in the back seat of the crew cab. His belongings are in plastic tubs in the truck bed.
> 
> Rollins said Mabel is what keeps him sane.
> 
> ...


The article says that Mabel was certified as a Service Dog in January 2010, but it does not further specify how she was certified or what she does for him. It also says that the only time she has barked was when someone came up behind them and touched her.

I have no opinion on whether or not Mabel is actually a Service Dog because there isn't enough information. But, regardless, I think it's sad that there are no shelters where he can stay because he has a dog (Service Dog or not).


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

If the dogs is certified as a service dog, then that is what he is. No need to question that-he is certified. I think that's horrible that this veteran is homeless. My community is opening up a homeless shelter specifically for veterans soon-and I am wondering….what the heck are veterans doing homeless anyhow? That is sad.


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

> If the dogs is certified as a service dog, then that is what he is. No need to question that-he is certified.


Places offering shelter have a right to ask additional questions then those limits placed on a worker in a store or employee in a restaurant. 

Also the thought was brought up here as there is *no recognized Fed/National or State Certifications.*

He was not denied access to the shelter. He was told after several times that the dog was not going to be allowed because it barked at other clients. A handler of any service dog that barks in any venue can be told to remove the dog.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

ILGHAUS said:


> Places offering shelter have a right to ask additional questions then those limits placed on a worker in a store or employee in a restaurant.
> 
> Also the thought was brought up here as there is no recognized Fed/National or State Certifications.


Well, it says the dog is certified, and there are no other details. So I am just going to take it at face value-that the dog is certified. Besides PTSD is a real condition-being in a war is not easy on the mind! And since that is a real condition then a dog that aids in that should be able to be certified at any level and recognized. I have seen too many soldiers come back all messed up in the head from the war. And the most important part of this story anyhow is that this vetern is homeless because of his dog who is instrumental in his recovery and not allowed in the shelter with him. For a veteran to be homeless is truly heartbreaking.


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

No one is saying PTSD is not real or of great concern. The story is dealing with someone who got a dog from a shelter and trained it himself. The dog barks at others and the handler is not taking the help offered him.

He was offered the help of a trainer to correct the barking ... He was offerend the ability to stay in a hotel room but it is too noisy and he prefers sleeping in his truck ... his dog runs loose inside of the shelter. His dog is making other Vets staying at the shelter uneasy.

This is a shelter for disabled Vets. Other Vets have stayed there with their SDs. Those in charge are trying to come up with other ways to help this particular person but he has to be willing to work with them. 

And no one here is putting his behavior down as it is probably in large part because of his condition. But if he doesn't want to go with their other suggestions there is no way they can force him but they can continue to not allow the dog inside until the dog behaves as a SD should.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

From the viewpoint of the general public, I would look at this article and say, "How horrible - he's denied access to the shelter because he has a Service Dog." But when you read the article more closely, you will find that that is not the case at all. 

This homeless shelter is not telling him he cannot be in the shelter because he has a dog. They're saying he can't be in the shelter with his dog as long as the dog is behaving in a way that is _inconsistent _with how a Service Dog should behave in a public place.

It is absolutely legal for any public place or business to ask someone with a legitimate Service Dog to leave if the dog poses a danger or behaves in a way that is inappropriate. Some of the things the law considered to be "inappropriate" are running lose outside of the control of the handler, barking or lunging at people, or peeing/pooping inside the store or building. The homeless shelter is well within their rights to exclude a real Service Dog if the dog is running loose and barking at people because those behaviors are inconsistent with the training of a real Service Dog.

The other thing is that the ADA applies primarily to places accessible to the general public. Because this is a homeless shelter specifically for disabled veterans, it would not be accessible to the general public, and if he needs specific accommodation for his Service Dog, they are well within their legal rights to require him to complete paperwork to be permitted to bring his dog and keep his dog at the shelter. (Along the same lines, colleges can require students using Service Dogs to fill in paperwork and the like because they, too, are not normally accessible to the general public.)

Lastly, it should be noted that there is no such thing as state or national certification for Service Dogs. Service Dogs are only then certified if they graduated from a specific organization that trains them - and those certifications are internal and specific to that organization. 

It's perfectly possible that he took and passed a Public Access Test with his dog, which is great but wouldn't be a Service Dog certification. I've found that most of the time when people say their owner/handler trained dog is "certified", it means that they sent some online company money for a certificate and dog vest. Not saying that is the case here, but that is the case in the majority of cases where an owner/handler dog is described as "certified".

And none of this has to do with his disability. I think everyone here is aware that PTSD are real and how Service Dogs can help people with PTSD. TJ and I certainly do.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

In my previous comment I was only going by the information given by the OP, I do think this veterans behavior is caused by his condition, and I see that he is homeless because his soon to be ex-wife is getting most of his money right now.

I am dumbfounded with the information I found concerning service dogs. I went online to determine what the requirements were to have your dog certified. I found out that by checking a box stating (on my word only) that my dog was trained as a service dog, and well behaved that for $250, I could have one of my dogs certified and get the certification, vest, and be good to go. I had no idea that it was so simple-I though the dog had to be tested by a professional. Now I understand why his dog may very likely need additional training.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

If you check some of the other threads about Service Dogs, you will find that there is a big hole in regards to certification.

According to the ADA, a Service Dog is a Service Dog if two requirements are met - the handler is considered to be legally disabled and the dog is trained to do specific tasks that mitigate the disability of the handler. Those are the requirements for a dog to be a Service Dog.

Because there is no such thing as a national or state certification, there are a lot of scam businesses that offer "certification" for a price. You basically click a box saying that your dog is a Service Dog and send them your money. What you get for that money are a piece of paper saying your dog is a "certified" Service Dog, a laminated ID collar tag, and a vest. You can print those certificates and collar tags on your computer at home and they would be every bit as valid as the ones you BUY through those websites. (And you can purchase vests and Service Dog tags for a fraction of the cost those websites charge.)

The reason the law is written the way it is written is to allow knowledgeable people to select and train their own dogs. Bear in mind that just because a dog was trained by the owner/handler doesn't mean the dog is NOT well trained nor that the dog is NOT a real Service Dog. If the dog has excellent manners and obedience in public and does specific tasks for the disabled handler, the dog IS a Service Dog - even without any kind of printed ID tag or certificate.

The only "true" Service Dog certification that exists is through organizations that train dogs in their programs - for example, a dog trained by Canine Companions for Independence would be certified through them, by completing the training program satisfactorily.

A lot of the time, questions arise about supposed Service Dogs if they behave in a manner that suggests bad (or no) training or being unfit to work as Service Dogs. The law is actually pretty good at explaining why a dog and handler may be asked to leave, what behaviors are "no-no's" for a good Service Dog.

And no, even if you were to send in $250 and get a "certificate" for your dog, your dog would NOT meet the legal requirements to be a Service Dog. You'd still need to be legally disabled AND the dog would need to do specific tasks for you. Even if you have a piece of paper and a vest saying he's a Service Dog.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Legally yes, but my point is that you could pull it off on most people-how would they ever know the difference?


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

> Legally yes, but my point is that you could pull it off on most people-how would they ever know the difference?


That is one reason why people like Chris, Lin, Renee, and I and several others have posted here, on our own blogs and websites, and those of others for years. We are trying to educate people on the laws so all sides know their rights and their responsibilities.  Some of us also give talks and meet with various groups to point out some of the problems and try to work on solutions.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

ILGHAUS said:


> That is one reason why people like Chris, Lin, Renee, and I and several others have posted here, on our own blogs and websites, and those of others for years. We are trying to educate people on the laws so all sides know their rights and their responsibilities.  Some of us also give talks and meet with various groups to point out some of the problems and try to work on solutions.


This. 

Knowing the law is how you know the difference. Knowing the law makes things go smoother for those with service animals, and allows businesses to protect themselves. 

When you know the law and what you can or cannot ask, what to look for, etc, it becomes quite obvious. For example, the fact that certification itself was mentioned is a huge red flag. But you didn't know the laws, so you made the comment that certification was certification and so there was no doubt about the dogs status. 

There is no certification for service dogs. Certifications are meaningless because they mean nothing legally. There are no requirements or regulation of certification under the ADA, and the law specifically states that people cannot request certification. Since it is not regulated, it means nothing other than someone was willing to give the dog certification. This could be a piece of paper from a reputable organization stating the dog passed their requirements, or it could be a piece of paper someone clicked boxes online for and paid $200. 

So whenever someone uses certification as a defense, typically its because they are not familiar with the laws. If they are not familiar with the laws... Is this a reputable service animal? Or a pet someone paid money and ordered a sheet of paper for?

On the subject of shelters... When I was homeless I was denied at the homeless shelters due to my service dog. However there was a program that helps get the homeless into apartments and they were fine with me having a service dog. But I was unable to find someone to short term watch/foster my second dog so I ended up living in my car until I was able to find a place to live.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

Here is an update on this one, too.

Readers respond, help homeless veteran | The Kennebec Journal, Augusta, ME

It doesn't have any more info on his Service Dog, Mabel, except this -



> For the times he must mix with the public, Mabel helps him cope. He adopted Mabel from an animal shelter in December 2009 and trained her himself, getting her certified in Maine as a service animal.


I did find the following for Maine, which is kind of interesting. It's for people applying for a dog license. Maine has a program where licensing fees are waived for Service Dogs, and in order to qualify for the Service Dog license, the following verification form has to be provided - http://www.maine.gov/agriculture/aw/documents/ServiceDogVerificationForm.pdf

According to that form, owners of ESAs could license their dogs as Service Dogs in the state of Maine as it requires the dog to either come from a Service Dog organization OR be prescribed by a medical professional as being "beneficial". (Owner-trained Service Dogs don't qualify for this license unless a doctor signs up on it, they have to pay for a regular dog license.)


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## Rogueokie (Apr 27, 2012)

There is no law that says a service dog has to be trained to do anything specific. In the case of a therapy animal, the dog just is, and in doing so helps the owner with mental stress and social disfunction. The owner must be disabled, and must have a written prescription from a health professional. Check out FHAct 504 for details. 

Never mind the type of service dog, (ADA makes no distinction between a service dog and a theraputic companion animal regarding housing, they are treated the same) The loophole is in the kind of shelter the vet was asking for help from. If the shelter recieves federal funds, then it must abide by federal housing law and house the vet with his dog, unless the shelter Director can show that doing so would endanger others in the shelter. If the dog does any damage, the vet can be held liable for that damage, but they can not assume that the dog will do damage, they must have evidence of it. 

If however the shelter is run by a private or religiously based non-profit using community based funds and donations and does not recieve any government help, it can deny any animal access to the shelter, even a certified, state trained seeing-eye dog. If the shelter recieves no federal money and is not charging anyone rent (not for profit), it does not have to abide by federal housing law.


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## guitarest (Jun 22, 2005)

ILGHAUS said:


> Places offering shelter have a right to ask additional questions then those limits placed on a worker in a store or employee in a restaurant.
> 
> Also the thought was brought up here as there is *no recognized Fed/National or State Certifications.*
> 
> He was not denied access to the shelter. He was told after several times that the dog was not going to be allowed because it barked at other clients. A handler of any service dog that barks in any venue can be told to remove the dog.


Again 100% Correct


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## guitarest (Jun 22, 2005)

Rogueokie said:


> There is no law that says a service dog has to be trained to do anything specific. In the case of a therapy animal, the dog just is, and in doing so helps the owner with mental stress and social disfunction. The owner must be disabled, and must have a written prescription from a health professional. Check out FHAct 504 for details.
> 
> Never mind the type of service dog, (ADA makes no distinction between a service dog and a theraputic companion animal regarding housing, they are treated the same) The loophole is in the kind of shelter the vet was asking for help from. If the shelter recieves federal funds, then it must abide by federal housing law and house the vet with his dog, unless the shelter Director can show that doing so would endanger others in the shelter. If the dog does any damage, the vet can be held liable for that damage, but they can not assume that the dog will do damage, they must have evidence of it. And the most important thing is this dog has to be social and not bark at others, no going to bathroom in the facility. It has to receive certain training to be a PTSD Dog, you cant just grab a dog and say its your PTSD dog.
> 
> If however the shelter is run by a private or religiously based non-profit using community based funds and donations and does not recieve any government help, it can deny any animal access to the shelter, even a certified, state trained seeing-eye dog. If the shelter recieves no federal money and is not charging anyone rent (not for profit), it does not have to abide by federal housing law.


Wrong, a ESD is not trained to do anything other than chill with its master. All other forms of service animals up to guide dogs have to have specific training. For a dog to be considered to be a service animal it has to do at the very least 3 tasks on command for its master. Any less its not a service animal. It has to receive certain training to be a PTSD Dog, you cant just grab a dog and say its your PTSD dog.This dog has to be at the very least social and barking can and will get you tossed out in the cold.And the most important thing is this dog has to be social and not bark at others, no going to bathroom in the facility.


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