# Need Recommendation for Pet Quality GSD in IL



## GoonerChi (Feb 11, 2015)

We are looking for a pet quality GSD for our family.

Unfortunately, the places that tend to come up in the searches tend to produce very high drive dogs, and that's just not going to work for us.

We need a dog that is more low key, able to walk through a dense urban environment and not overreact to a stimulus. We have to feel confident that when the elevator door opens, the dog is not going to behave aggressively if he sees another dog.

We live in Chicago near Navy Pier, and would prefer an IL breeder but would consider others generally in the midwest.


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## GoonerChi (Feb 11, 2015)

Ok, looks like I posted this in the wrong sub-forum. Could one of the moderators move it to the section on breeders, or should I just re-post there?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Huerta Hof would be one to look at. Huerta Hof German Shepherds
I'm sure they breed pups that fill your listed requirements


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## GoonerChi (Feb 11, 2015)

I'd prefer to have a breeder that does not focus on Schutzhund. While I admire some of the dogs, I question whether they are the best option for where my family lives. A lot of those dogs are pretty dog-aggressive, and that's a pain when you are getting on and off an elevator three or four times per day.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

GoonerChi said:


> I'd prefer to have a breeder that does not focus on Schutzhund. While I admire some of the dogs, I question whether they are the best option for where my family lives. A lot of those dogs are pretty dog-aggressive, and that's a pain when you are getting on and off an elevator three or four times per day.



This makes zero sense. First...how many schutzhund dogs have you met? Second...why would a schutzhund dog which is taught to bite a human, be dog aggressive?

Any breeder that's recommended on this forum, will do schutzhund with their dogs. So if you're looking for one that doesn't, you won't find one here.


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## GoonerChi (Feb 11, 2015)

Martemick,
Needless to say that I find your comments needlessly insulting.
In direct answer to your question -- I know, because I owned one.
Some of these dogs are wonderful around people but they are bread with high drive making them dog aggressive. If you've never experienced it, it is perhaps you lack the necessary experience.
And if this forum is just for Schutzhund people, then I'm in the wrong place.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Have you met dogs from the kennel? Are they reactive/aggressive? 
To be honest, not sure how involved they are in IPO(Schutzhund) with all the dogs they breed. You are close enough to visit, have an open mind and see for yourself the temperament of the dogs.

Is a GSD for you? The IPO titles are geared for breed-worthiness of a GSD. Has nothing to do with uncontrolled aggression, but CONTROLLED obedience/agression triggered when deemed appropriate. And that aggression is mostly sleeve oriented bites. 
You need to look at this breed more carefully, and make sure the GSD is a breed you want to support and live with.


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## GoonerChi (Feb 11, 2015)

Onyx,
From which kennel? I'm not sure what you are referencing.

With regard to your other statements, we are going to have to disagree.
I've been around GSDs for roughly 45 years.
Too many dogs I've seen recently are bred for high drives that are a perversion of the breed standards. They are not the real working dogs that we used to see. Too many places are taking a great breed and turning them into maniacs.
That was never what the breed was about.

Read Von Stephanitz. This isn't what he had in mind. The nobility of the breed seems to be missing too often now in certain circles.

In any case I trust your intended response to my original post was simply "No, I'm not aware of any breeders that meet your requirements." Assuming that's the case, that probably would have been a better response.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

You owned a schutzhund dog or one from schutzhund trained lines?

Cause I have two fairly friendly schutzhund trained GSD. None of the GSD I train with are DA. Sure, they're powerful and they're confident so they can certainly have problems with each other. But they are no where near what I'd consider dog aggressive.

It's cool that you've been around GSD for 45 years. That means what? 4-5 dogs? Guess that's all the experience you need. And yet you're here asking for recommendations because you don't have enough experience to find the dog without help.

This forum isn't filled with schutzhund people, just people that believe that schutzhund is the true test of a GSD and should be done before a dog is bred (not bread - that's something you eat). So yes, you'll have a really hard time finding anyone on here that will recommend a breeder that doesn't breed dogs that are titled in schutzhund.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

then maybe a different breed would better suit your list of requirements. 
Not sure your agenda with asking for breeder recommendations. I can give several that would make very nice companion dogs, or whatever is asked...but they are a working breed and should remain that way. To ask for a couch potato, then NO....find a different breed and don't water down this one. 
My male is not a maniac, he is of solid temperament, yet is very happy on the field doing what is asked, no dog or human aggression, very neutral.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

You should also probably go back and read Von Stephanitz (the guy that CREATED Schutzhund in order to test the breeding stock). Maybe you missed that chapter?


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## GoonerChi (Feb 11, 2015)

Geez, I've never met people more in need of a beer than the two of you.

Can the two of you possibly take yourselves more seriously?

I'm new to this forum, and the two of you are genuinely rude.

Before training dogs, the two of you need to learn manners.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Woah...the guy that calls out my experience decides to then call me rude?

I train in Schutzhund about an hour north of you, if you're interested in coming out and meeting some breeders, PM me. You'll see for yourself how dog aggressive the dogs are.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Lollll, you must be a troll. 

If you're offended by the opinions and experiences that members are offering you in direct relation to a completely incorrect statement that you've made, then maybe you're the one in need of a few beers. 

For the love of god, just don't bother getting a German Shepherd. Someone as ignorant as you probably couldn't handle it to begin with. Maybe a medium apartment sized breed would be more fitting. Perhaps a Beagle..


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## GoonerChi (Feb 11, 2015)

onyx'girl said:


> then maybe a different breed would better suit your list of requirements.
> Not sure your agenda with asking for breeder recommendations. I can give several that would make very nice companion dogs, or whatever is asked...but they are a working breed and should remain that way. To ask for a couch potato, then NO....find a different breed and don't water down this one.
> My male is not a maniac, he is of solid temperament, yet is very happy on the field doing what is asked, no dog or human aggression, very neutral.


Hmmn, you can but you chose not to. Instead you just insulted me.

Odd choice there.

And no, I'm not looking for a couch potato. But it doesn't really matter. At this point, your posts have made clear than you are an odd, defensive, and very angry person, and the last thing in the world I would do is take advice from you. 

Settle down. Stop taking yourself so seriously. Learn to relax.


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## GoonerChi (Feb 11, 2015)

martemchik said:


> Woah...the guy that calls out my experience decides to then call me rude?
> 
> I train in Schutzhund about an hour north of you, if you're interested in coming out and meeting some breeders, PM me. You'll see for yourself how dog aggressive the dogs are.


The lack of self-awareness in your posts is fascinating.

If you behave that way, I can't imagine how horrible your dogs must behave.

In any case, I came here seeking some advice.

Rather than providing advice, you all have proven to be pretty miserable excuses for people.

I have no interest in advice from your kind.

And now go back to patting yourselves on the back and telling yourself about your great skills. Know your limitations. That's what you do best.

I'm out of here.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

mkay.... Karlo wishes you a very,happy fat Tuesday!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

GoonerChi said:


> I'd prefer to have a breeder that does not focus on Schutzhund. While I admire some of the dogs, I question whether they are the best option for where my family lives.* A lot of those dogs are pretty dog-aggressive,* and that's a pain when you are getting on and off an elevator three or four times per day.


This is very false. There are many, many dogs out there that are not dog aggressive. I have one laying next to me right now from high level competition dogs. Not only is he NOT dog aggressive, he taught my female, who is dog aggressive from being attacked when she was young, how to play again. And let me say...that was a beautiful thing to watch.

It's all in the breeding. If you go to a good breeder and tell them what you want then you should easily be able to avoid this situation.

I told my breeder I wanted a dog that could settle, that within this dogs lifetime there could be grandchildren, NO dog aggression (because I AM totally sick of dealing with it), a dog that would be capable of doing whatever sport I chose. I got all that and more.

I would highly suggest you go watch some dogs at clubs and talk to some people. Find the dogs you like and then talk to those breeders.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

GoonerChi said:


> Too many dogs I've seen recently are bred for high drives that are a perversion of the breed standards. They are not the real working dogs that we used to see. Too many places are taking a great breed and turning them into maniacs.
> That was never what the breed was about.


I would agree that people are breeding dogs wth unbalanced drives and no off switch for sport. There are many threads on this board on exactly that topic.

But that doesn't mean that all of them are like that or that good ones are hard to find.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

this is his happy place =balanced aggression


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

6/1/13 by Gator_Dog, on Flickr

6/1/13 by Gator_Dog, on Flickr

Carma IPO1 by Gator_Dog, on Flickr

12/12/13 by Gator_Dog, on Flickr

5/4/14 by Gator_Dog, on Flickr

5/4/14 by Gator_Dog, on Flickr


Tulah by Gator_Dog, on Flickr

Tulah by Gator_Dog, on Flickr

So much dog aggression..Right.

3/14/2014 by Gator_Dog, on Flickr


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

My Schutzhund titled dog does flyball, which is a sport where there are 8-12 dogs at a time all *racing* each other off leash in a small ring while humans are running and screaming, tug toys are dragging on the ground, food is being thrown, and loose balls are rolling around. He has never gone after another dog; he is focused on me and he knows what is expected in that environment. His reward is getting to race and then tug with me, not terrorize other dogs. I would not get a GSD and expect the dog to seek out interactions with non-pack dogs or be a safe "dog park" type dog, but there's no reason a GSD cannot be raised to live with other dogs in the family pack. Same sex aggression especially between intact dogs can be a problem but is not a guarantee. Neither of my male GSDs are OK with random dogs charging up to their faces, but both are fine working off leash around other dogs in very high drive environments with other off leash dogs (flyball and agility), both have dog friends and do fine with other dogs while boarding or foster dogs I have in my house. Most of the dog-aggressive GSDs I know are not from breeders that are doing Schutzhund (or titling their dogs at all, really, not much priority for strong, stable temperaments).


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The GSD's in this thread do IPO, no dog agression but play in these photo's: 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...6-boys-burning-off-some-energy-pic-heavy.html


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Actually someone that lives relatively close to the OP and spends lots of time in Lincoln Park and lives in a building with an elevator has a pup from Huerta Hof and has no issues.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

So the OP wants a German Shepherd from non-Schutzhund dogs. That's not a crime. There have got to be some good American Show Line breeders in the Chicagoland area, or somebody breeding working dogs for things like rally, agility, obedience, herding, detection, therapy, etc?


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Emoore said:


> So the OP wants a German Shepherd from non-Schutzhund dogs. That's not a crime. There have got to be some good American Show Line breeders in the Chicagoland area, or somebody breeding working dogs for things like rally, agility, obedience, herding, detection, therapy, etc?


Not a crime, but definitely ignorant in saying that Schutzhund dogs are dog aggressive. Come on...


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Emoore said:


> So the OP wants a German Shepherd from non-Schutzhund dogs. That's not a crime. There have got to be some good American Show Line breeders in the Chicagoland area, or somebody breeding working dogs for things like rally, agility, obedience, herding, detection, therapy, etc?


I'm waiting for a recommendation then...


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

GatorDog said:


> Not a crime, but definitely ignorant in saying that Schutzhund dogs are dog aggressive. Come on...


The statement that Schutzhund = dog aggressive is fallacious, but you're not going to convince anyone by web-arguing and posting pics of Shutzhund dogs. So far we have 3 pages of arguments and zero answers to the OP's question. At this rate they'll end up buying a dog off Craigslist. One thing I can promise you is they won't be buying a dog from SchH parents. So why not answer the question? Something like, "Well, I disagree with you on the dog aggression aspect but XXXXyyyy is a great kennel in Illinois that breeds dogs specializing in herding and agility. . ."


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Emoore said:


> Something like, "Well, I disagree with you on the dog aggression aspect but XXXXyyyy is a great kennel in Illinois that breeds dogs specializing in herding and agility. . ."


How can someone disagree with what a breeder is doing (not titling in Schutzhund) and recommend them anyways?


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Emoore said:


> The statement that Schutzhund = dog aggressive is fallacious, but you're not going to convince anyone by web-arguing and posting pics of Shutzhund dogs. So far we have 3 pages of arguments and zero answers to the OP's question. At this rate they'll end up buying a dog off Craigslist. One thing I can promise you is they won't be buying a dog from SchH parents. So why not answer the question? Something like, "Well, I disagree with you on the dog aggression aspect but XXXXyyyy is a great kennel in Illinois that breeds dogs specializing in herding and agility. . ."


I'm not arguing with anyone. Just stating that the statement made was incorrect, and backing it up with proof. 

I don't know of any breeders who "specialize" in herding or agility in IL and therefore, wouldn't recommend any to OP. Like I said, if they're looking for a laid back, low key dog of a non aggressive breed, maybe another breed would be better suited.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

GatorDog said:


> I'm not arguing with anyone. Just stating that the statement made was incorrect, and backing it up with proof.
> 
> .


To be fair, the first thing you did was call him/her a troll. It's a rare person who remains open to intelligent discourse if the first thing you do is call them names.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Emoore said:


> To be fair, the first thing you did was call him/her a troll. It's a rare person who remains open to intelligent discourse if the first thing you do is call them names.


A lot like when the first thing a person does is call out another person for their perceived lack of experience and then decides to make statements about how that person's dogs are probably poorly behaved and takes shots at their ability to train a dog?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Emoore said:


> The statement that Schutzhund = dog aggressive is fallacious, but you're not going to convince anyone by web-arguing and posting pics of Shutzhund dogs. So far we have 3 pages of arguments and zero answers to the OP's question. At this rate they'll end up buying a dog off Craigslist. One thing I can promise you is they won't be buying a dog from SchH parents. So why not answer the question? Something like, "Well, I disagree with you on the dog aggression aspect but XXXXyyyy is a great kennel in Illinois that breeds dogs specializing in herding and agility. . ."


I've been to/entered in many events in the Chicagoland area over the years and know breeders there, have seen many dogs from kennels in that area (and plenty have produced wonderful family pets), but they are all SchH titled lines (work and show) so are apparently irrelevant. I'm coming up emtpy on suggestions for dogs from lines with zero SchH.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Emoore said:


> To be fair, the first thing you did was call him/her a troll. It's a rare person who remains open to intelligent discourse if the first thing you do is call them names.


OP 's response to the first two people who gave them compltely reasonable suggestions..

"Geez, I've never met people more in need of a beer than the two of you.

Can the two of you possibly take yourselves more seriously?

I'm new to this forum, and the two of you are genuinely rude.

Before training dogs, the two of you need to learn manners."

I'm not sure they're all that open to "intelligent discourse"..


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## nezzz (Jan 20, 2013)

GoonerChi said:


> Read Von Stephanitz. This isn't what he had in mind. The nobility of the breed seems to be missing too often now in certain circles.


Since you wish to bring up Max von Stephanitz, then please answer me, how is a pet breed GSD "noble", if anything, the working breeds and show breeds more closely typefy what the breed is, one with looks, the other with work ethic. Pet lines on the other hand are furthest away from what a GSD is all about, they are lazy, scared and will run from a fight if they ever needed to protect their owners.

Also you should know, Max von Stephanitz created schutzhund precisely as a breed suitability test. If a GSD can't do schutzhund, why would you breed it? It clearly did not fit his vision of a GSD and neither would it yours since you're trying to follow his vision.

Lastly, the GSD breed has moved on since Max and Horand left us. Schutzhund and GSDs have moved on with the times and there are really great dogs now that do schutzhund AND are family pets. I suggest you keep up or try and find a way to clone Horand von Grafrath.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I understand that a lot of the members here compete in various sports involving bitework. I get the appeal. I understand the desire to see a working dog work. I appreciate the hours and bruises that go into it.
What I do not understand is your desire to attack, insult and drive off people who want pets. I don't think anyone would call me or my dogs couch potatoes. And I think some of you forget that a majority of puppies are not going to sporting people or LEO's, they are going to go home to play with the kids, hang in the yard, go camping, or hiking, or shopping. Some will do Agility or Nosework or Dock Diving, but at the end of the day they are the family pets. 
Should we go back to a time when pups that didn't make the cut were culled? If my dog can't take the pressure should it by put down? 
For crying out loud the OP simply isn't interested in the same things you are, it isn't criminal and as some of you pointed out there are breeders who do other things with their dogs. Perhaps you could steer people toward a nice SL breeder instead of making them feel bad, or maybe one of you knows of a pup that isn't going to make the cut. Educate instead of alienate. If this is the greatest breed perhaps you should try to promote it instead of trying to convince people that they attract assholes for owners.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

nezzz said:


> Since you wish to bring up Max von Stephanitz, then please answer me, how is a pet breed GSD "noble", if anything, the working breeds and show breeds more closely typefy what the breed is, one with looks, the other with work ethic. Pet lines on the other hand are furthest away from what a GSD is all about, they are lazy, scared and will run from a fight if they ever needed to protect their owners.


I call BS on this statement. The percentage of "pet" GSDs versus "working" GSDs is huge. My pet GSDs are noble and they are versatile. Versatile is key here. I want a dog that can do several things, not just one. There are tons of dogs out there that have never touched a sleeve and are great dogs. There are also dogs that work that sleeve that wouldn't protect in real life. It's important for these dogs to have a on/off switch. Bite work can bring that out in them but it certainly shouldn't determine which GSDs are _*real*_ GSDs.
A true GSD has loyality, versatility, aloofness and nobility about them. My pet GSDs are not lazy and I truly don't know what they do to protect me, I prefer to protect them.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Well, here I was afraid to recommend a rescue. 

This thread is kind of sad. Let's keep it on topic. 

Dog aggression is a really important thing for someone living in close quarters with elevators. 

As always, the requirements of a pet dog are much higher than dogs that live in kennels - so, in my opinion, you want to look for breeders who live with their dogs, who will know how they are in the house, how they are not just with the pack dogs, but how they are with strange dogs of all sizes. 

I met a very nice girl named Panther - her puppy xray is posted somewhere around here (if you go to my name above my avatar, click, then click on show more posts I posted on the thread). She is a stunning black GSD who is going to have a litter. She did really well with my Sheltie mix who was wearing a collar with bells on it. Now this little dog of mine was younger then, he moved even more hectically and like a prey item. Some dogs look at him in a very leering way that makes me extremely nervous. I was at first cautious with her because he was dancing around like a nut, with bells, but because I trust her handler, I let them interact and she was great with him. I'd say check her out. She does Schutzhund and flyball both and is a house dog. 

But pet dogs, dogs living in homes, have so much more required of them - noises and movement, discerning strangers, people and their craziness...

You can also check with rescues. You may find a dog that's a perfect fit there. Most would be listed on Petfinder. Look for a good rescue that has the foster dogs in homes, around other dogs, people, and who evaluates them every step of the way. 

*And again - let's keep this on topic. *Emoore, thank you. 

Jean admin


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think our only point, at least mine was and I know Jane's was as well, is that not all dogs from working lines are crazy sport dogs with no ability to cap their drives. It really has nothing to do with whether our dogs do sport. It's simply that they do make great pets. It's a shame to nix an entire line of dogs that would be perfectly suited as a pet because of an incorrect assumption. These dogs have super solid nerves that are more than capable of handling the noise and activity of a busy apartment building and city street.

And the dog Panther was bred to? He won Nationals for IPO last year, was second the year before and competed in WUSV last year. You don't get much higher in the Schutzhund world than that. Same sire as mine. Phenomenal dog, great in sport, social, no inappropriate aggression. Panther is a doll. Very sweet and I've never seen any inappropriate aggression from her either.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

First...anyone that brings up Max von Stephanitz and wants to quote him to say "how GSDs should be." Should know that he created Schutzhund in order to preserve the working ability of the breed. So if you're going to use him as your reasoning behind why you don't want a dog that has Schutzhund behind them, it makes absolutely no sense.

Second...any serious SHOW breeder, will still train their dogs in Schutzhund. They have to have a minimum of an IPO1 in order to show their dog in the working class (the class that matters, where you get all those Vs, Gs, and SGs). A breeder like that was recommended, and was shot down for having IPO1 behind their dog's name.

Third...I know some American show line breeders that I just can't recommend because I don't believe what they're doing is right. Why would I recommend dogs that I think are ruining the breed and point someone in the direction of a breeder that I don't believe should be supported? Just doesn't make sense. I used to belong to the largest GSD club in our region. Kent Boyles (popular name lately) belongs to that club. Truthfully, I saw more dog aggression and fearful dogs in that club than I have at my Schutzhund club. So why would I recommend those dogs? They're softer, they aren't as confident, and those are two things that lead to unnecessary aggression.

I don't think anyone here was calling anyone's dogs that don't do bite sport less than those that do. But at the end of the day, many of us will always believe that IPO is the way to test a dog's nerve and breedworthiness. So if you're not planning on breeding your dog, I really don't care what you do or don't do. But I'm not about to sit here and recommend what basically amounts to a BYB.

llombardo...it's interesting that as someone who lives in Illinois, you took the time to rant about the nobility of your dogs rather than giving a list of breeders for the OP to check out.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Isn't Daphne in the midwest? She breeds American Show Lines that do agility.


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## Athena'sMom (Jan 9, 2014)

I just have to say, my well bred working line German shepherd is the best dog I have ever owned. She is confident and can go into any situation I ask of her. She is neither dog aggressive or people. 
My WGSL, which is my heart dog, struggles with leash reactivity from time to time with other dogs. She has been in obedience since day one but tends to lack confidence when she views another dogs excitement as a threat. Show or working does not matter. It is the temperament of the dog. Make sure you choose a breeder who is knowledgeable about his pups and can direct you to the right fit for your lifestyle.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

martemchik said:


> llombardo...it's interesting that as someone who lives in Illinois, you took the time to rant about the nobility of your dogs rather than giving a list of breeders for the OP to check out.


I gave my opinion early on in this thread. I think Huerta Hof would be a great choice of a breeder. There are others, but not that I'm fond of and not what the OP is looking for


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Sable mom,Llombardo,Eemore, the voices of reasonIf only we all could discuss and exchange opinions without attacks and arrogance.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I just think it's funny that the people who referred to the responses as "attacks" are the people who don't actively train in Schutzhund, and the "attackers" are those trainers just providing evidence to disprove a false statements.


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## KathrynApril (Oct 3, 2013)

GoonerChi said:


> I'd prefer to have a breeder that does not focus on Schutzhund. While I admire some of the dogs, I question whether they are the best option for where my family lives. A lot of those dogs are pretty dog-aggressive, and that's a pain when you are getting on and off an elevator three or four times per day.


http://youtu.be/Pxjjh6MSLqs

My guy is from Mittelwest. Does that look dog aggressive to you??? He loves to play with other dogs at the dog park. And especially enjoys being chased by multiple little dogs. As he has aged he plays with me at the dog park and goes to "say hi" on command to other dogs. While he will bark at dogs at PetSmart/Petco if I don't lead him away, he does fine on leash at other places and the vets office. I think his leash issues were my poor training more than anything. I think whatever breeder you choose, even if it were a Schutzhund breeder, will help you find the right dog for your family if you let them know what you are looking for. 

A few of the pups that came from my boys litter were listed on the breeder's website as not canidates for Schutzhund. In other words, just because they breed for a specific purpose doesn't mean that all those pups will live up to their goals.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

KathrynApril said:


> I think whatever breeder you choose, even if it were a Schutzhund breeder, will help you find the right dog for your family if you let them know what you are looking for.
> 
> .


Best comment on this thread!


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## Lobo dog (Sep 19, 2014)

I wasn't going to chime in here, but in a recent thread (http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/523658-tre-good-german-shepherds.html) They were discussing this breeder who seems to share a lot of the same views and opinions as the OP. They are located in Arizona so not close to IL but I figured I would post them here just in case the OP was interested. 

This is taken from her "A Step Above; young trained family companions" page

"The story explains why we have become so very specific about the dogs we train and breed. I began breeding German Shepherds in my late teens and twenties. When I became a mother I decided to let my line end and focus on my family. Later in life, I decided to buy a German Shepherd for my family. I was shocked when I had to reject dogs for being too aggressive, high energy/drive, or just plain neurotic. These were not the dogs I grew up with...so I began to do research. I learned that many German Shepherd Dogs are now bred for sport rather than for family life. I have nothing against sport or dogs bred for police work, but they do not always make the best family companions. *Selective breeding for traits such as aggression (sport) and high activity levels (sport) greatly increase the risk of behavior problems that a normal family cannot handle*. When a dog is bred strictly to produce puppies that will title in sport or conformation, family companion traits can be overlooked. I believe that the naturally protective German Shepard Dog should also be available to families--not only for show and work." 

Here is her site http://www.tregoodgermanshepherds.com/. I do not have any experience with this breeder.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

dogma13 said:


> Sable mom,Llombardo,Eemore, the voices of reasonIf only we all could discuss and exchange opinions without attacks and arrogance.


Voices of reason that haven't recommended a single breeder...

Oh, and voices of reason that have never done Schutzhund, so all their information about the sport and the dogs comes from reading websites and other people's opinions. I guess they're the ones we should be getting the information about how ALL Schutzhund dogs are like.

My suggestion...go out and see some Schutzhund clubs, if you think that all those dogs are over the top and crazy high drive dogs, you have no idea what "high drive" is or even having enough drive to do any kind of work.

The biggest problem with doing internet research, is all the dogs you see video of are more than likely the highest, best, top of the class dogs. So of course those are going to be the higher drive dogs that more than likely an average owner can't handle, and those are the dogs that shouldn't be in "pet" homes. But then there are the other dogs...the dogs that are owned by people that bought them as pets and have gotten into Schutzhund. They're not amazing, they're not crazy, but they can do the work. Sure...they'll never get a score of 295, but they can pass with a score of 250 and get the title. But those of you that don't really know the sport further than what you've seen on the computer screen...you'll never get that.


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

martemchik said:


> Voices of reason that haven't recommended a single breeder...
> 
> Oh, and voices of reason that have never done Schutzhund, so all their information about the sport and the dogs comes from reading websites and other people's opinions. I guess they're the ones we should be getting the information about how ALL Schutzhund dogs are like.
> 
> ...


I agree with the last paragraph but i think you are being so aggressive now lol


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## GoonerChi (Feb 11, 2015)

martemchik said:


> A lot like when the first thing a person does is call out another person for their perceived lack of experience and then decides to make statements about how that person's dogs are probably poorly behaved and takes shots at their ability to train a dog?


Did you even read your own post? The first thing you said was to call me an idiot, and then you actually got upset because I responded in kind.

I stand by my former comments regarding you.

You have no manners and no self-awarenss and I would hate to see how your dogs behave.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Lobo...read my post from above. Guarantee you that this woman decided to do all her "research" online. And on top of that...why would I trust HER opinion to be correct. Because she bred dogs as a teenager? Who says those dogs were successful at ANYTHING. What is "naturally protective?" A dog that barks at people? Barks at a knock on a door? I know yorkies and Chihuahuas that would do that...does that mean they're protective? How do you know a dog is going to protect unless you actually test it? Or are we just supposed to trust that some woman, who probably has never dealt with a dog in a protection setting or a working setting?

People tend to forget that this was once meant to be a working breed. Which means the dogs need to work. A sign of working ability isn't sitting around inside a house, not reacting to a crying baby, not reacting to a hair dryer, and then once in a while going on a walk and playing some fetch.

People really need to look at the resources they get their information from. This is probably the #1 thing that makes me angry about this forum. Too many people who tend to influence other people way too much when no one knows who they are or how they got to the opinion they did. Way too often I see an OPINION taken as FACT. Like it was pointed out earlier...the people that agreed with OP...none of them have ever done Schutzhund, and yet...there was a member who decided that their opinions on the matter carry more weight than those opinions of the members who are currently actively involved in the sport. Does that make any sense? I don't think it does. But that's what constantly happens...because their opinions sound better to the person and fall more in line with either what they think, or where they got their dog. So it makes them feel warm and fuzzy inside, and they decide that those are the opinions they're going to agree with and spread.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

GoonerChi said:


> Did you even read your own post? The first thing you said was to call me an idiot, and then you actually got upset because I responded in kind.
> 
> I stand by my former comments regarding you.
> 
> You have no manners and no self-awarenss and I would hate to see how your dogs behave.


Please point out where I called you an idiot. You've got the ability to use the "quote" feature of this forum. So I'd like to see where that exact language was used.

I've invited you to a training session. Please feel free to contact me for more information so that you can see how my dogs behave.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Sabis mom said:


> I understand that a lot of the members here compete in various sports involving bitework. I get the appeal. I understand the desire to see a working dog work. I appreciate the hours and bruises that go into it.
> What I do not understand is your desire to attack, insult and drive off people who want pets. I don't think anyone would call me or my dogs couch potatoes. And I think some of you forget that a majority of puppies are not going to sporting people or LEO's, they are going to go home to play with the kids, hang in the yard, go camping, or hiking, or shopping. Some will do Agility or Nosework or Dock Diving, but at the end of the day they are the family pets.
> Should we go back to a time when pups that didn't make the cut were culled? If my dog can't take the pressure should it by put down?
> For crying out loud the OP simply isn't interested in the same things you are, it isn't criminal and as some of you pointed out there are breeders who do other things with their dogs. Perhaps you could steer people toward a nice SL breeder instead of making them feel bad, or maybe one of you knows of a pup that isn't going to make the cut. Educate instead of alienate. If this is the greatest breed perhaps you should try to promote it instead of trying to convince people that they attract assholes for owners.


All of the breeders that my SchH dogs have come from sell many, maybe even *most* of their dogs as active pets. But the OP made it clear they are not interested in breeders that focus on SchH, so that negates recommending great breeders that DO consistently produce stable pet dogs because they are breeding breed-surveyed (titled) dogs. 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting a stable GSD bred to the standard as a pet. I have one right now! He is training in a few sports but I picked him because of his "pet"-like temperament and knew he would make a good pet if I decided not to continue in his sports. He is not being trained in Schutzhund but his parents/lines are.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

martemchik said:


> Voices of reason that haven't recommended a single breeder...
> 
> Oh, and voices of reason that have never done Schutzhund, so all their information about the sport and the dogs comes from reading websites and other people's opinions. I guess they're the ones we should be getting the information about how ALL Schutzhund dogs are like.
> 
> ...


Excuse me? I not only recommended a breeder I sent the OP a message apologizing for how people act. You are one of the most defensive people I know of on here. I personally don't do the sport and I have nothing against it. I don't bash people that do the sport. I will watch it every now and then. I don't see any problems with dogs that do the sport or dogs that don't. While it's extremely important to you it's not so much so to others. There is no other option for you and it comes across very close minded. Some people just don't care about the sport. I personally have an issue in my area with the attitude that these people have, it's a lot like yours and very annoying. Others on here do the sport and just don't come across like people I have met on the field, which gives me some hope that it's not like that everywhere. Then I read these responses and every condescending conversation I have had in real life with those sport people comes flooding back....


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## KathrynApril (Oct 3, 2013)

I thought Huerta Hof also breeds with focus on Schutzhund. No?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Liesje said:


> All of the breeders that my SchH dogs have come from sell many, maybe even *most* of their dogs as active pets. But the OP made it clear they are not interested in breeders that focus on SchH, so that negates recommending great breeders that DO consistently produce stable pet dogs because they are breeding breed-surveyed (titled) dogs.
> 
> There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting a stable GSD bred to the standard as a pet. I have one right now! He is training in a few sports but I picked him because of his "pet"-like temperament and knew he would make a good pet if I decided not to continue in his sports. He is not being trained in Schutzhund but his parents/lines are.


Exactly! My dog has full siblings in guide, active pet, SAR and sport. It's all about the individual breeding.

I see the OP is back. I have no idea what dogs you've seen to give such a poor opinion of working dogs. None of us know that. I can only strongly suggest you find clubs in your area and perhaps go watch and meet some of the dogs. Of course some will be exactly as you described. And others are going to be like mine and like Lies. They will be the stable dogs that the breed is supposed to be and not prey monkeys with no ability to cap.

And WHERE is Daphne at? Isn't she in Illinois? Huerta Hof is definitely one to check out. Specify to these breeders...must be social enough to live in the city and no genetic dog aggression. After all, dog aggression is part environment and training as well as genetics.

**** All clubs including AKC clubs where you can see other lines and meet those breeders as well.


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## KathrynApril (Oct 3, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> Best comment on this thread!


You just made my day  hee hee


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

KathrynApril said:


> I thought Huerta Hof also breeds with focus on Schutzhund. No?


As far as I know. They now have some working line as well as show.


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## Lobo dog (Sep 19, 2014)

martemchik said:


> Lobo...read my post from above. Guarantee you that this woman decided to do all her "research" online. And on top of that...why would I trust HER opinion to be correct. Because she bred dogs as a teenager? Who says those dogs were successful at ANYTHING. What is "naturally protective?" A dog that barks at people? Barks at a knock on a door? I know yorkies and Chihuahuas that would do that...does that mean they're protective? How do you know a dog is going to protect unless you actually test it? Or are we just supposed to trust that some woman, who probably has never dealt with a dog in a protection setting or a working setting?
> 
> People tend to forget that this was once meant to be a working breed. Which means the dogs need to work. A sign of working ability isn't sitting around inside a house, not reacting to a crying baby, not reacting to a hair dryer, and then once in a while going on a walk and playing some fetch.
> 
> People really need to look at the resources they get their information from. This is probably the #1 thing that makes me angry about this forum. Too many people who tend to influence other people way too much when no one knows who they are or how they got to the opinion they did. Way too often I see an OPINION taken as FACT. Like it was pointed out earlier...the people that agreed with OP...none of them have ever done Schutzhund, and yet...there was a member who decided that their opinions on the matter carry more weight than those opinions of the members who are currently actively involved in the sport. Does that make any sense? I don't think it does. But that's what constantly happens...because their opinions sound better to the person and fall more in line with either what they think, or where they got their dog. So it makes them feel warm and fuzzy inside, and they decide that those are the opinions they're going to agree with and spread.



I gave the name of a breeder who says she trains her dog' in agility, and certifies them as medical alert dog's as well as therapy dog's. She states on her website that all of her dog's are DM negative and OFA certified. I gave the name of breeder who appears to meet all of the OP's criteria. 

I agree with much of what you post (even in this thread). I enjoy reading your responses. But I think you are making this a personal battle. The OP has made it clear that his mind cannot be changed, I simply answered his original question and left it at that.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

llombardo said:


> Excuse me? I not only recommended a breeder I sent the OP a message apologizing for how people act. You are one of the most defensive people I know of on here. I personally don't do the sport and I have nothing against it. I don't bash people that do the sport. I will watch it every now and then. I don't see any problems with dogs that do the sport or dogs that don't. While it's extremely important to you it's not so much so to others. There is no other option for you and it comes across very close minded. Some people just don't care about the sport. I personally have an issue in my area with the attitude that these people have, it's a lot like yours and very annoying. Others on here do the sport and just don't come across like people I have met on the field, which gives me some hope that it's not like that everywhere. Then I read these responses and every condescending conversation I have had in real life with those sport people comes flooding back....


 If your idea of defensive, is giving people actual facts about things, than sure, I'll be defensive.

I don't care if YOUR dog does it or it doesn't do it. I care that people that have never done the sport, like to throw around opinions about it. And the ideas about Schutzhund on this forum, by people that have never done it (and not just gone to watch a trial or two) are constantly inaccurate. If you think you need some crazy, out of control, bite anything that moves, never settles dog to do Schutzhund. You're completely wrong. The OP came here with the idea that all Schutzhund dogs are DA...that's completely wrong. I can guarantee you the percentage of DA Schutzhund dogs, is either exactly the same, or even less than the percentage of DA dogs out of the whole population...mostly because, people that train in Schutzhund and want to eventually trial, don't want to deal with having to train a dog to down against its will when all it wants to do is kill the dog that's currently on the field.

DOING the sport isn't important to me. But if you're going to be breeding the dog, it is important to me that you do it. Or something else that shows the dog has nerve and can handle something more than life as a pet. The idea that pets don't come out of Schutzhund trained dogs is a joke. And if anyone thinks that two dogs that have never seen anything outside of their own backyard, can produce a more stable dog than a couple dogs that have gone through the trials and training for Schutzhund, I will try to change that opinion. If I can't...oh well, just another person supporting the downfall of this noble breed.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

GoonerChi said:


> We are looking for a pet quality GSD for our family.
> 
> Unfortunately, the places that tend to come up in the searches tend to produce very high drive dogs, and that's just not going to work for us.
> 
> ...


I don't want dog aggression either, its a pain, but there's really no way to tell exactly what the dogs are like from someones website. Too many of them are going to try and make their couch potato's look like monsters, when they really aren't. 

Have you had time to get out and meet face to face with anyone yet?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Lobo dog said:


> I gave the name of a breeder who says she trains her dog' in agility, and certifies them as medical alert dog's as well as therapy dog's. She states on her website that all of her dog's are DM negative and OFA certified. I gave the name of breeder who appears to meet all of the OP's criteria.
> 
> I agree with much of what you post (even in this thread). I enjoy reading your responses. But I think you are making this a personal battle. The OP has made it clear that his mind cannot be changed, I simply answered his original question and left it at that.


No worries, I really don't care about changing OP's mind. Not my fault that people won't openly recommend BYBs on this forum...they know the wrath that would come down on them if they recommend a breeder that breeds their pets.

I'm also sure that both Daphne and Robin would love to see the fact that when someone asks for "pet quality dogs" their names come up. I haven't met a breeder yet that believes their dogs are just "pet quality."

As a side note...both of my bite work trained dogs have done therapy work. All it takes is obedience and a stable temperament, not really any special skills.


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## Girl_Loves_Hydraulics (Apr 13, 2014)

I think this thread needs to be locked, it has seriously went far into the realm of negativity. OP, please note this is a great community and to not be discouraged. Everyone has opinions, but it's ultimately up to you as to what you see as the best for you and your family. I do agree that perhaps just looking at a couple of breeders in your local area is a very good thing. As others have mentioned, there are puppies that do meet the standard but are definitely more of a companion animal. Please keep us updated, and I am sure you will find a good fit!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Oh great...the wise one is back.

Why lock it? Why is it that anytime there is a difference of opinion it's automatically branded as "negativity." The OP, and other members need to know the experience behind the opinions that are stated. Someone that has been on this forum for a month, hasn't had the time to figure out who does what and where their opinions are coming from. So therefore...they think everyone's opinion has the same weight. On top of that, people tend to agree/listen to opinions that are already lined up with theirs rather then the ones that are telling them that they're incorrect.

I found it interesting that in this thread, the few members that agreed that it's alright to not go with a breeder that does something with Schutzhund, are the ones that don't do Schutzhund. And yet the members that do Schutzhund, then try to prove that their dogs are just fine, get branded as "attacking" the opinions (about Schutzhund) of those that don't.


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