# Sisters attacking each other



## Dmenz33 (Mar 29, 2016)

Hello I have 2 female German Shepherds from the same litter. They are 6 months old and are not fixed yet. We just got them back from obedience training. They were there for 5 weeks and it sounds like the trainer kept them separate when working with them and she said they were fine like that. Now that they are home and in our house together, they have been attacking each other to the extreme. Bitting, barking and tackling each other is just some of the things they have been doing. My wife and I think it is "litter mate syndrome". I am reaching out for help so we can get some help with dealing with this situation. The last thing we want to do is get rid of one or both of them. Does anyone have any ideas or tips they could share to help us deal with them? Thanks!


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Two females is a bad idea. Same sex aggression. Either crate and rotate for the next 12 years or so, or rehome one. What did your trainer say?


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I can't believe the trainer didn't intentionally avoid telling this owner there was most likely be a major life long problem between female sibs.... and what about the breeder? There's two people that should have informed this owner this was likely to happen. Makes me mad! They take the money and move on.....


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

At 6 months old, this is only the tip of the iceberg. The real instincts, drives and problems will kick in towards maturity. These fights will escalate, and you will one day come home to one dead dog, and another covered in blood. 

Understand that there are only two options here:
1. Crate and rotate for the rest of their lives. *Never* having both dogs out at the same time.
2. Re-home one now, while it is still a puppy.

You will be doing yourself and the dogs a disservice by doing anything else. Do not tempt yourself with the "we can fix this" delusions. No, you can not, no you will not. Don't even waste time trying. Once it happens - that's it, game over.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I just saw a post in a Facebook group about this same problem, only the two girls are older. I had the same thought, what kind of a breeder would sell two female siblings together.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Beyond that, I have a bitch with a bully streak, so I have only ever deliberately added males to our home. I did have a foster fail that meant we had a very submissive female lab mix for a few years. I laid down the law with the GSD, zero tolerance for bullying and the GSD could only have her special toys when the other dog was put away. I always segregated at feeding time or for food treats. It is not something I would willingly repeat, and half of that was the most submissive little dog on the planet. I shudder to think shat it might have been like if the female fought back or was as interested in toys as the GSD.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

OP... fighting between females is very serious and it increases and the wounds/damage can cause death. I'm so sorry you are getting this news in this way but two professionals have failed you.. Unless they warned you and you discounted it. The best is to rehome one while still young and people desire a younger dog. If you hold on, thinking you can fix mother natures way and you can't you will then offer that pup much less of quality of life in the future.

A very hard lesson and heartbreaking.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

5 weeks your dogs were away for training? This is disconcerting to me. You took two 4 almost 5 month old puppies and sent them together to an obedience school for 5 weeks? This sounds like it would have cost a pretty penny? Maybe you should call these people and ask them some questions, and get some recommendations.

Littermate syndrome I would imagine would cause issues further down the line. The pups are pretty young for SSA. I wonder, if you have two puppies that are basically reeling from being uprooted, _trained,_ and then placed back into a home. The rules for the pups have changed, and now changed again. I think they need to be re-acclimated. 

But, it is also true that females in particular can be royal pains when it comes to SSA. And if they are from the same litter, chances are they are similar in power, so unless one is clearly more dominant and the other clearly more submissive, you are in for trouble. 

You really aren't going to like the suggestion, but I think you have to think about rehoming one of them. 

I am curious, where did your puppies come from, a breeder, shelter, or rescue?


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## Remo (Sep 8, 2004)

Oh my - I don't envy your position. 

As the old saying goes "Bitches equal stitches". 

Every time I have ever had to go to the hospital for wound treatment, it has been breaking up a bitch fight. As I have gotten older and wiser, I have also learned a bit about busting up a dog fight without getting hurt! 

We always keep spray bottles and TV trays handy - spray bottles for stopping something before it starts, like a stare down, and TV trays to whack down between them if things go south. 

Shame on the person who put you into this situation. They should have known better.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Bitches.......


SuperG

( shortest post in my history excepting this )


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

How awful that your breeder and trainer failed you big time! Littermates, NO. Two puppies at there same time, NO. Two female littermates at the same time, GOD NO! I agree that , sadly, you are going to have to rehome one. I have lived tnrougn the nightmare of habing two females in my home - never again. Constant supervision, rotation of crates and sleeping areas. I did have two boys from the same litter once, but the second one joined our family after about one year, when his owner was diagnosed with cancer. I would never have wanted two pups from the same litter at the same time. Try contacting your breeder.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

SuperG said:


> Bitches.......
> 
> 
> SuperG
> ...


Ha! Isn't it amazing. In the human species, there are similarities. Men are all posturing and threats.... women eliminate the competition and they know it's survival of the fittest....


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

Some people just have to learn the hard way, sucks when it is at the expense of other living beings. These pups have been set up to fail since before they left the breeder's kennel. People can make this situation work and successfully manage it. There are breeders, trainers, and experienced owners who do this without issue. In the average pet home you can easily get in over your head and create a dangerous environment. I am sorry you ended up in a situation you should have never been in the first place. Seek a good trainer or do your household and sanity a favor and rehome one before things get a lot worse. The breeder should be stepping up to the plate to help you out.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Dmenz33 said:


> Hello I have 2 female German Shepherds from the same litter. They are 6 months old and are not fixed yet. We just got them back from obedience training. They were there for 5 weeks and it sounds like the trainer kept them separate when working with them and she said they were fine like that. Now that they are home and in our house together, they have been attacking each other to the extreme. *Bitting, barking and tackling *each other is just some of the things they have been doing. My wife and I think it is "litter mate syndrome". I am reaching out for help so we can get some help with dealing with this situation. The last thing we want to do is get rid of one or both of them. Does anyone have any ideas or tips they could share to help us deal with them? Thanks!


I'm not getting on the same sex aggression or rehoming bandwagon yet or even the sibling rivalry thing. Both of these are real things, but the way the OP describes it, it sounds like two GSDs playing. Mine do all of these things All the time. They sound like they are killing each other but they aren't, not even close. The female in my group is pretty vocal, can't imagine two. 

This is another case of everyone jumping right to aggression without really knowing what is going on. New owners read these dog wrong all the time. More info is needed. 

These are two puppies, are they expected to just sit and look at each other? Puppies play, they bark, they tackle each other, that is what they do. Did the op think because they went away to training this wouldn't happen?


Is it possible the OP is reading the dogs wrong? I agree that the breeder should not have sold two from the same litter, much less two females. 6 months old is kinda young to send away for training, that was valuable time they needed at home bonding and training with the owner, but that is just my opinion.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Stonevintage said:


> I can't believe the trainer didn't intentionally avoid telling this owner there was most likely be a major life long problem between female sibs.... and what about the breeder? There's two people that should have informed this owner this was likely to happen. Makes me mad! They take the money and move on.....


I'm with you Stonvintage. OP, people failed you. Rehome one of the dogs and give your all to the other. Sorry, but that is really sad.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I am shocked a trainer would take two young puppies out of a home and then separate them at the very time they should be learning to get along with one another. I don't have any advice for the OP. My female who is almost middle aged female and my male puppy play like that but one gives in and rolls over before anyone gets hurt. I like that they do that because it taught the puppy bite inhibition, but learned from an older dog, not a same age puppy.

Actually, I do have a suggestion. Get someone who can read dog behaviors to watch them interacting either in person or on video and tell you if its normal puppy jousting or if one is going to kill the other eventually.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

MHO: you cannot afford to wait until they kill each other. It can happen out of the blue on a random day at a random time.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

It's odd to me to read people say how evil bitches are and how like people. I can't think of too many women who start or participate in genocide or wars, there are far fewer female murderers, or violent criminals so, no I don't agree that human females are more violent than males. More nasty, and conniving, and snipey, yes. But more violent, no. 

It doesn't make sense from a biological standpoint either. In theory, all but a handful of male humans could survive, and still impregnate all the women. So why not kill off rival males? You see it in plenty of other species that live in social groups- lions, chimps, wild horses, elephants. 

For sure bitches fight, and once a fight starts the dogs aren't clear in the head, and killing each other is possible, but I don't think the situation is hopeless if (and only if) handled properly.

These dogs are very young, only 6 months? The OP has the perfect opportunity now, while they are still almost puppies to step in and stop fighting as an option. 

If this had been going on for years with adult females, it could still be stopped but would be much more difficult. 

Separating and then bringing them back together can certainly be a trigger for fights. Seems real young for board and train, too. 

OP- the situation is not hopeless, but ask yourself if you are willing and able to step in and do what needs to be done- physical corrections with the right timing and attitude- to stop a fight. The posturing also needs to be stopped, same way.

If you are afraid of the dogs, it won't work. Yelling won't work. Throwing stuff won't work. 

You can stop fights from happening while you are there. I'd crate or separate when you leave the house. Always, always, always. Can't emphasize that enough.

I also like to have sisters with rivalry participate in "team building" activities, like pack walks or runs, fetch with two with waiting and OB mixed in (pups should have very solid OB from a month board and train), OB with two, and the best might be pulling together in harness for dog power sports. All these help cement the bond with you and with each other as partners, not rivals. 

But more than that you need to be very strong, step in and put a stop to the fights and posturing. If you need help knowing how, find a GOOD trainer and get it. Screen trainers very carefully. 

If you can't do this, as others said rehome now when they are still young, or plan to crate and rotate for life.


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

llombardo said:


> I'm not getting on the same sex aggression or rehoming bandwagon yet or even the sibling rivalry thing. Both of these are real things, but the way the OP describes it, it sounds like two GSDs playing. Mine do all of these things All the time. They sound like they are killing each other but they aren't, not even close. The female in my group is pretty vocal, can't imagine two.
> 
> This is another case of everyone jumping right to aggression without really knowing what is going on. New owners read these dog wrong all the time. More info is needed.
> 
> ...


Generally speaking, you're correct. It doesn't sound like full-blown fights, and OP could simply be overreacting.

However, this is clearly an inexperienced handler. One that cannot even handle doing basic obedience training with the pups (as evidenced by sending them away for *5 weeks!!*). This is not a case of "adjust your methods this way" and you'll see progress. The OP is _way_ in over their head, and it'll only get worse. 

Some people can handle raising GSDs, some cannot. These dogs are not for everyone, and there's no shame in recognizing a mismatch between dog & owner and rehoming one (or both) before things get serious. There are people on this forum who are experienced enough to be able to handle this situation, but OP is not one of them.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

I kind of agree that even if this isn't actual aggression, the deck is seriously stacked against the OP (dogs that are likely not of great genetics, female littermates, inexperienced owner). No reputable breeder in their right mind would let female littermates go in a scenario like this, and any trainer worth their salt (and not just out for a buck) would have alerted the owners to what was likely going to happen to them, so the OP has been screwed on multiple fronts. If there's time to remedy the "oops, I made a mistake, I shouldn't have gotten littermates!" situation while the puppies are still young, it's better to do it now than wait for the probability of a huge issue. You may be able to stop fighting for now, but once the hormones go into full swing you're going to have an entirely different scenario on your hands. 

OP, it sucks, I know- but better to have learned the lesson early rather than once they've already tried to kill each other.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Oh where, oh where is the OP????


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

She has her hands full with those two dogs.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Well it's going to need to start with better management so If they are still around?? They should have a look here:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7607634-post41.html


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Muskeg said:


> It's odd to me to read people say how evil bitches are and how like people. I can't think of too many women who start or participate in genocide or wars, there are far fewer female murderers, or violent criminals so, no I don't agree that human females are more violent than males. More nasty, and conniving, and snipey, yes. But more violent, no.
> 
> It doesn't make sense from a biological standpoint either. In theory, all but a handful of male humans could survive, and still impregnate all the women. So why not kill off rival males? You see it in plenty of other species that live in social groups- lions, chimps, wild horses, elephants.
> 
> ...


There is one problem with your overall theory. Bitches hold grudges. They are perfectly willing to sit back and wait for an opportunity to finish the job. GSD's are noted as a breed for SSA, specifically the females. It has also been noted with this particular breed that the females are much more prone to dog aggression in general then the males.
In a normal pack setting, you have an alpha bitch. Other females are normally siblings and offspring and have varying responsibilities and roles. These are defined almost from birth. They do not vary within that pack, until your alpha is too old to breed at which point, usually a daughter steps up. Also interesting to note that natural litters are much smaller then the artificial ones we create and often contain more males then females. Natural genetic diversity since females most often stay and males leave. Also understand that while male roles can change females do not appear to. 
In our world, we screw with natural order. We put dogs together that should not be or we inadvertently promote a lesser animal or allow it privileges it shouldn't have. For example, you bring home two females, one is a bit smaller and the other one is pushy. Being a good parent you step in and make sure that the smaller one gets her share of food and when she is being pushed around you pick her up to make it better. You just elevated her to a status she wasn't born to. Your girls grow bigger and one day the one who should have been your alpha says enough. But your little one that you babied, instead of submitting like she should, fights back! Had we left well enough alone, little one would have submitted at the first snark, there would be a small amount of growling and maybe some grabbing or pushing but because we altered the order of things it's a brawl.
I also think that perhaps because domestic dogs have larger litters, we may be duplicating status.
With regards to the OP's issue I do think these girls are young and I am not convinced that the 'fights' are really fights. BUT I also think this is an inexperienced owner who could well be in for a mess if one of these bitches isn't rehomed.
Our dogs are still just dogs. For all we treat them as family they are animals and instinctive behavior is part of that.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Also understand that while male roles can change females do not appear to. 

Sorry, there is an exception to this. Often, for a number of reasons, the beta leaves, and becomes an alpha in her own territory. Females that leave wild packs are always the alpha's and beta's in the alpha's litters. It is not uncommon for them to remain in the pairs they were born in, since most often the beta in a pack is the alpha's sister. I would imagine that in cases were this is not so, death is the cause of the anomaly.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Sabis mom said:


> There is one problem with your overall theory. Bitches hold grudges. They are perfectly willing to sit back and wait for an opportunity to finish the job. GSD's are noted as a breed for SSA, specifically the females. It has also been noted with this particular breed that the females are much more prone to dog aggression in general then the males.
> In a normal pack setting, you have an alpha bitch. Other females are normally siblings and offspring and have varying responsibilities and roles. These are defined almost from birth. They do not vary within that pack, until your alpha is too old to breed at which point, usually a daughter steps up. Also interesting to note that natural litters are much smaller then the artificial ones we create and often contain more males then females. Natural genetic diversity since females most often stay and males leave. Also understand that while male roles can change females do not appear to.
> In our world, we screw with natural order. We put dogs together that should not be or we inadvertently promote a lesser animal or allow it privileges it shouldn't have. For example, you bring home two females, one is a bit smaller and the other one is pushy. Being a good parent you step in and make sure that the smaller one gets her share of food and when she is being pushed around you pick her up to make it better. You just elevated her to a status she wasn't born to. Your girls grow bigger and one day the one who should have been your alpha says enough. But your little one that you babied, instead of submitting like she should, fights back! Had we left well enough alone, little one would have submitted at the first snark, there would be a small amount of growling and maybe some grabbing or pushing but because we altered the order of things it's a brawl.
> I also think that perhaps because domestic dogs have larger litters, we may be duplicating status.
> ...



This is an interesting explanation. I have 2 females(different breeds and a good age difference) but I can see the sharing of the role, with the younger female taking on more of the role and the older female allowing it as the older female gets older--it's like the changing of the guard. Others can't see it because they don't live with them, but I notice it because I know my dogs. They have gotten into it a couple times(neither time started with them directly--another dog started it). Both times the younger female GSD had the upper hand but the older female did not back down, held her ground(no injuries to either dog but there should have been, which leads me to believe the younger one didn't put everything into it even though it looked like it). Within minutes of the fight the younger female approached the older one and kissed her--almost seemed like hey I'm sorry I lost my cool. I was lucky they didn't seem to hold a grudge but it seemed to solidify the order of the pack with the older female still the top dog. Neither of the females start fights, they just kinda watch things, the males do not bother with them. If by chance one of the younger males gets to rough for the older female the younger female comes in and stops it--this would be Robyn and she is vocal--I can swear she is having a conversation with them and they heed her warning, she then sniffs the older female, makes sure that she is ok and walks away. 

Is it possible they are both alpha females and my observations are right? 

Sorry about the slight derailment here, I just like to know if what I'm observing is what I think it is?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

llombardo said:


> This is an interesting explanation. I have 2 females(different breeds and a good age difference) but I can see the sharing of the role, with the younger female taking on more of the role and the older female allowing it as the older female gets older--it's like the changing of the guard. Others can't see it because they don't live with them, but I notice it because I know my dogs. They have gotten into it a couple times(neither time started with them directly--another dog started it). Both times the younger female GSD had the upper hand but the older female did not back down, held her ground(no injuries to either dog but there should have been, which leads me to believe the younger one didn't put everything into it even though it looked like it). Within minutes of the fight the younger female approached the older one and kissed her--almost seemed like hey I'm sorry I lost my cool. I was lucky they didn't seem to hold a grudge but it seemed to solidify the order of the pack with the older female still the top dog. Neither of the females start fights, they just kinda watch things, the males do not bother with them. If by chance one of the younger males gets to rough for the older female the younger female comes in and stops it--this would be Robyn and she is vocal--I can swear she is having a conversation with them and they heed her warning, she then sniffs the older female, makes sure that she is ok and walks away.
> 
> Is it possible they are both alpha females and my observations are right?
> 
> Sorry about the slight derailment here, I just like to know if what I'm observing is what I think it is&#55357;&#56836;


What you are observing is a fairly typical mother/daughter relationship. It isn't uncommon for adult females to 'adopt' a young female in place of the pup they would have had to replace them, yes just like a changing of the guard. The defense that you see on the part of the younger dog is pretty typical 'don't touch my mom' behavior.


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

Last handful of posts have been very interesting. Nice to 'watch' from the sidelines.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Sabi- what do you mean by natural setting? Feral dogs? From the studies I've read, female-female aggression among feral dogs is low, especially compared to male-male aggression in feral dogs. 

Are you implying by the female dog holding a grudge that a female dog will bide her time, and wait until her sister is sick and then kill her? In a pet dog household?

I don't believe dogs think like that unless they are in a Jack London novel. I do think dogs are oppurtunists, and could try to take advantage of a sick or hurt dog but it's not because of a long standing grudge.

And then it is the dog owner's job to make it clear fighting or bullying remain not an option. I don't think dogs lie in wait, pretending to get along, playing together, but inside just chomping at the bit to hurt or kill their house mates. 

A good handler can read a dog pretty well, and stop fights or thoughts of fights. Still might need to be managed, in that the handler must be present, but actually breaking up of fights- it's rare if the owner knows what they are doing, even if the dogs are fighting breeds. 

That said, most pet owners don't want to deal with this or aren't able to. So, yes, the rehome or crate-rotate advice is sound. 

A forum like this isn't a good place to give advice on dealing with fighting GSDs. But if the OP wanted to, they could find a good trainer and figure this thing out.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Sabis mom said:


> What you are observing is a fairly typical mother/daughter relationship. It isn't uncommon for adult females to 'adopt' a young female in place of the pup they would have had to replace them, yes just like a changing of the guard. The defense that you see on the part of the younger dog is pretty typical 'don't touch my mom' behavior.


I thought that is what I was observing. I see nothing but respect between the two. The same respect I see with the males towards the females. Now the males are a little less respectful of each other, I stay on top of that, but I also don't want to interrupt the natural roles they play in the pack. It's become obvious that my male golden is the top male dog based on the simple fact he doesn't need to apply any leadership, it's very natural and they don't seem to mess with him either.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Muskeg said:


> Sabi- what do you mean by natural setting? Feral dogs? From the studies I've read, *female-female aggression among feral dogs is low, especially compared to male-male aggression in feral dogs. *
> 
> *Exactly. Left to their own devices things would balance, it is we who interfere. In a natural setting balance is achieved.
> 
> ...


We aren't talking about a good handler, and bitches flip like switches. They don't often posture and bluff, that's a boy game. They simply decide to fight. The average pet owner isn't up for that and where the boys will sometimes scuffle then chill, when bitches get into it they are playing for keeps.
I don't want to give advice on dealing with fighting, not to a seemingly new owner who is in a tough spot. I was just offering insight into why SSA is prevalent in female domestic dogs, specifically in the breeds less far removed from origin species. Also keep in mind what I said about male positions being fluid, females not so much and the theory that since domestic litters{6-10} are near twice the size of a feral/wild litter{2-6} there is a possibility that we are in fact duplicating positions.


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## RunShepherdRun (Oct 5, 2009)

How were they trained during these five (!) weeks?
How were they kept at the trainer's place?
What experiences with other dogs did they have at the trainer's place?

Behavior descriptions on the internet don't tell us what is going on.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I totally agree with you, Sabi that dealing with female-female aggression is beyond the scope of this forum and probably well beyond most pet owners. 

I would love to discuss the dominance-aggression issues some more, because I think you have some interesting ideas to offer, but I guess it wouldn't help the OP much. 

With the OP gone, this thread is limited to rhetoric.


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