# Fear Periods



## Blitzkrieg1

Lets talk about fear periods in pups. I put this in the working section as Im only interested in this topic as it applies to work / sport, not the usual "my dog was timid as a puppy but now he is friendly stuff".

So I have recently seen a pup purchased by a guy I know at 8 weeks for schutzhund and protection. The dog is from a well respected breeder who works his dogs, and also from exceptional lines. Both parents titled, strong civil dogs. 3/4 Czeck 1/4 WG. The stud is fairley well known. This is a repeat breeding the last one apparently produced some exceptional pups.

So with that preface I see the pup taken out of her crate on the field, owner bangs the crate accidentally the pup startles a bit then goes to investigate the field. He is tooling around sniffing stuff at times he appears hesitent or unsure but seems to bounce back. Seems fairly social but aloof. 
Owner says the breeder also noted the pup was acting a bit off for the first time when they met up the previous day and noted that the dog must be entering a fear period as he has seen no such behavior previously. Breeder advises to keep the pup away from too much stress and exposure to too much until about 12 weeks. 
Also note the litter had coccidia which was cleared up but the pup was a tad under weight.

Owner tells me the pup can be a bit hesitent at times, has acted a bit fearful about random things like the cat a child running by etc. The pup does seem to recover in the main but can still be a bit hesitent or spooky at times. That being said he has not exposed the pup to much.

So that begs the question have you seen working pups go through fear periods and what has been the end product result in terms of work? 

Do these dogs lack some confidence as adults? 

Do you find they are weaker then pups that barely seemed affected by their fear periods or didnt even seem to have them? 

Are they weaker when it comes to ability to handle fight / pressure?

Are fear periods a red flag to you or do you expect them?

How long do you expect them to last?


Now my friend tells me that the breeder will guarentee the dog so he isnt worried but Im just curious about this topic.


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## Liesje

I don't really believe in "fear periods". I strive to find a balance between assuming that I've stacked the deck in my favor based on the research up front (observing the parents, other progeny, pedigree, etc), but also not introducing an inappropriate level of stress and pressure to a young puppy. I want my puppy to think he is The Poop, if you know what I mean, all the time. I try to set them up for success. I do expose my puppies to a LOT of things because all my dogs even sport/working dogs are house dogs that live in the city, travel with me quite a bit, *must* be safe with my family and friends (think running around off lead at a cottage with a dozen people and other dogs), and usually participate in other sports that involve a much higher level of chaos and environmental stress than Schutzhund. So far with 4 GSD puppies (two show line, two working line), none have gone through any sort of "fear period" so maybe I've just been lucky. I do believe that genetics trumps everything when it comes to temperament, but I also believe that *most* dogs have a pretty wide spectrum of behavior/temperament and there really is quite a bit of room for "nurture" type influence. I haven't raised that many GSD puppies but with each one I find that a lot of things can be self-fulfilling prophecies and the more I worry about my dog's reaction or behavior towards a certain stressor, the more likely the dog will react unfavorably. When it comes to puppies I try to be confident, communicative (I let them know when they are right and when they are wrong), predictable, and I want them to understand we are a team, we will always have each others' backs.


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## Roemly's Mama

Fear periods are a normal part of a dogs developmental stages. Usually when leaving the litter and then when they hit adolescence. Some show more, some don't miss a beat. Poor socialization and reactivity should not be confused as a fear period. That is for a behaviorist to determine. Fear periods are developmental phases that can be dealt with, not reactive behavior. 

If proper socialization continues thru these periods there is no reason the dog cannot be a wonderfully confident, loving adult companion.


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## onyx'girl

Czech lines tend to carry more suspicion and I think they are sometimes uber aware of their surroundings because of that.
And focusing on the handler is sometimes a challenge because the dog is watching the world, not just focusing on the handlers face.

Does the puppy engage with a tug/flirtpole or act inhibited?

I don't think keeping the pup away from "stress or exposure" would be helpful, nor would it be helpful in pushing it beyond its comfort level. 
There is a fine line in building confidence or pushing too quickly. 
I'd ask the the pup to try things~ encourage the pup on if it balks or shows some timidity towards trying, and throw a party when pup succeeds!
I'd try to set up scenarios for success, nothing too difficult. Taking to a kids Playground/the equipment is great, because of the different textures. 
It sounds to me that this pup may be a bit soft right now....doesn't mean it won't blossom with some good shaping/handling. 
I'd be more interested in checking out the puppy's thresholds and the recovery(which you say pup does recover).
As far as handling fight/pressure in the dogs future, that is individual and how the dog is worked(or not) early on. 
I think a young dog should grow a bit and not do any protection, work on the other phases. If the dog has "it"~ "it" will be there.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Oh Iv seen him play tug with the pup, it definitely has drive. 

I think a dogs ability to handle pressure is genetic more then trained. The question is are fear periods an indicator of a weaker dog down the road.


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## onyx'girl

I think the question still depends on the individual dog. My male never went thru any type of 'fear' stage', he isn't weak as an adult(Czech/WG WL's)
I've seen a couple dogs that show a bit of hesitant type behavior(but I wouldn't say they were in a fear stage) and they aren't weak nerved. 

If you put pressure on a young dog, it may avoid....as an example(not recommended), putting a young dog in the blind teaching a hold and bark. Will the dog show avoidance, leave the blind(or shifty behavior) because it was pushed too early instead of learning the H&B out in the open. There are many ways to put pressure on, and even a genetically strong young dog may show avoidance. And that avoidance may carry over at maturity.


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## Blitzkrieg1

So by no fear period you mean as a pup he never ever hesitated or showed avoidance what so ever?

If anyone has direct experience with pups that went through fear periods I would be interested to hear the end result good / bad.


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## Liesje

I agree with Jane, it still depends on the dog. Knowing the parents, siblings, repeat litters, etc is very useful. I've seen a few dogs that were awesome puppies, super confident and bold, never hesitated that got really weird as adults. I've also seen the same but with the drive plateauing an then fizzling out (often show lines). Even if a puppy doesn't ever have a "fear period" doesn't mean it's going to be a rock solid adult either.


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## cliffson1

There are working lines, both Czech and W German that carry weak nerves that can result in the behaviors that the puppy is exhibiting.


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## doggiedad

i don't believe in the stages/periods. i think the first year of a dog's
life is a delicate time for them. they're being exposed to so much.
i slowly introduced my pup to things and a lot of things i did from
a distance slowly moving closer to the pup.


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## carmspack

are you talking about an 8 week old pup?


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## G-burg

I think some dogs do go through a period where they become somewhat unsure of things.. And then go back to there normal selves.. 

I've seen a lot of dogs that people would write off as spooky or nervy as a young dog and with maturity were totally different. More confident and outgoing..

So who knows...


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## Blitzkrieg1

cliffson1 said:


> There are working lines, both Czech and W German that carry weak nerves that can result in the behaviors that the puppy is exhibiting.


 
So Cliff are you saying that an obvious fear period is a sign of weak nerves? 
Yes the pup is 8 weeks.


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## cliffson1

It certainly can be, but could be other reasons. But the majority of times I see fear periods in young dogs, the nerves are not optimum. Lets put it this way, the dogs that I know with stellar nerves, very seldom have fear periods of any significance. One last thing, I did not equate what you wrote as fear periods, I SAID the behaviors you described..........more often than not are associated with weak nerves. Of course a lack of socialization can also duplicate the hesitancy.....but I am assuming you have a pup that has been exposed to things. My point really, is that there are working lines and working line dogs that are and will produce weak nerves on occaisons. It is important to know those lines so you don't have a working line pedigree that looks impressive because it has all working lines and is saturated with WL that will throw higher percents of weak nerves than is acceptable ....at least for me!
One last thing, it's similar to hips, just because you have two certified hip parents being bred, doesn't mean the litter won't have pups with bad hips, substitute weak nerves for hips and you get the picture.


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## mycobraracr

cliffson1 said:


> It certainly can be, but could be other reasons. But the majority of times I see fear periods in young dogs, the nerves are not optimum. Lets put it this way, the dogs that I know with stellar nerves, very seldom have fear periods of any significance. One last thing, I did not equate what you wrote as fear periods, I SAID the behaviors you described..........more often than not are associated with weak nerves. Of course a lack of socialization can also duplicate the hesitancy.....but I am assuming you have a pup that has been exposed to things. My point really, is that there are working lines and working line dogs that are and will produce weak nerves on occaisons. It is important to know those lines so you don't have a working line pedigree that looks impressive because it has all working lines and is saturated with WL that will throw higher percents of weak nerves than is acceptable ....at least for me!
> One last thing, it's similar to hips, just because you have two certified hip parents being bred, doesn't mean the litter won't have pups with bad hips, substitute weak nerves for hips and you get the picture.


 
Cliff, what are the lines have you seen produce weak nerves? Just curious.


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## cliffson1

Too many to name, practically all can produce a pup or pups with weak nerves in a litter. But you are missing the point, it's more about the combination of two dogs/lines that when the variables mix both sides give enough of the weak nerves to produce SOME pups with less than optimum nerves. It's not as much about individual dogs/lines as it is about combinations that combine or recombine. That's why when I see people make important breeding decisions on individual dogs, especially the stud....I know they have limited knowledge of breeding. This goes for temperament or health( hips).....there is not a dog in the world that does not have many mates that are incompatible for them....NONE!
So these people that select a stud because of hip rating, or movement, or structure.....ALONE.....are missing the point in my opinion. It's about compatibility as opposed to I'll breed to that OFA excellent to improve hips or I'll breed to that top schutzhund three champion to improve working performance. These are BYB tactics, IMO. 
So working lines can throw pups/dogs with weak nerves for sure, now they don't tend to through pups that are skittish to everything like some lines/dogs will....but there are weak nerves in workinglines that can be brought out with BYB practices....jmo!


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## holland

I think the pup deserves the benefit of the doubt-think its not fair to evaluate the pup over the internet and the best people to comment are the ones seeing the dog-the people he is training with and the breeder. I don't think not exposing a pup to things is the answer


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## Blitzkrieg1

Not my pup cliff but it will be interesting to see how it progresses. Thanks for elaborating.


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## cliffson1

I think ALL pups deserve the benefit of the doubt, but the benefit of the doubt won't change what is!.....but any and everything can grow, learn and be loved.....people or dogs!


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## carmspack

do we have a match ? Tazmania von den Sportwaffen


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## carmspack

how is the subject pup of this thread doing ?


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## wednesdaay

cliffson1 said:


> There are working lines, both Czech and W German that carry weak nerves that can result in the behaviors that the puppy is exhibiting.


Is there any place to read more about this? I just got a DDR line dog and all was good until the trash truck rolled by and her ran away as fast as he could..


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## Chip18

Michael Ellis on Fear Periods in dogs:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOuwZcqnwcs


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## MadLab

I wonder what the result of the pup was from the original tread? 

Did it work out?


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## cliffson1

Earlier in this thread Jane also made a good point. Oftentimes dogs that have very strong defense instincts/drives will show extreme caution as a pup that can be viewed as having less than optimal nerves. As these dogs mature, especially mentally, these behaviors evaporate. This seems more prevalent in DDR lines and some of the older Czech lines. This caution( especially the raising of hair on back) is often associated with fear( in pups) coming from weaker nerves. While this is often the case these days, it could also be caution which is a part of instinctive survival package. Usually, when this is the case, after the dog gets to examine the " environment or object" they don't have issue with it in future. Now if the repeated exposure to the stimuli produces anxiety or reaction, then I start thinking genetics as in nerves or very limited environment exposure.


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## wolfy dog

I prefer to get the pup from the litter at 10 - 11 weeks, given that the breeder exposed them to a variety of situations and environments. At that age they are more confident and stable than that "baby"-puppy at 8 weeks.


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## mycobraracr

cliffson1 said:


> Earlier in this thread Jane also made a good point. Oftentimes dogs that have very strong defense instincts/drives will show extreme caution as a pup that can be viewed as having less than optimal nerves. As these dogs mature, especially mentally, these behaviors evaporate. This seems more prevalent in DDR lines and some of the older Czech lines. This caution( especially the raising of hair on back) is often associated with fear( in pups) coming from weaker nerves. While this is often the case these days, it could also be caution which is a part of instinctive survival package. Usually, when this is the case, after the dog gets to examine the " environment or object" they don't have issue with it in future. Now if the repeated exposure to the stimuli produces anxiety or reaction, then I start thinking genetics as in nerves or very limited environment exposure.




:thumbup: With young dogs, I think it's just as, if not more important to see how they recover, rather than how they react.


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## Blitzkrieg1

This pup became an average dog in the end. Nerves were never what I would consider optimum. Some environmental insecurity, some grip issues and dog aggression. Not much the average person would spot by seeing the dog or even watching it work but those nerves were never what I would consider sufficient.


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## Jarkko

cliffson1 said:


> Earlier in this thread Jane also made a good point. Oftentimes dogs that have very strong defense instincts/drives will show extreme caution as a pup that can be viewed as having less than optimal nerves. As these dogs mature, especially mentally, these behaviors evaporate. This seems more prevalent in DDR lines and some of the older Czech lines. This caution( especially the raising of hair on back) is often associated with fear( in pups) coming from weaker nerves. While this is often the case these days, it could also be caution which is a part of instinctive survival package. Usually, when this is the case, after the dog gets to examine the " environment or object" they don't have issue with it in future. Now if the repeated exposure to the stimuli produces anxiety or reaction, then I start thinking genetics as in nerves or very limited environment exposure.


I think this is an excellent point. My male was extremely cautious as a pup, and still is (he's now 2,5 years). But this cautiousness was not because of his nerves, they are solid, but he just for reason or another has this very primitive instinct, he's like in constant war against the world. Always watching, always ready to work. Very sharp, sometimes acts before thinking, but is getting better day after day. He's dog aggressive, especially males and also challenges humans. In the training, he's very much defense/aggression, not so much prey. Last week in the BH test, he was calm and sweet like a puppy . So I think he fits perfectly to what you described above.

I've heard from many people that his nerves are weak, but I don't buy that anymore. I've come to the conclusion that these aggressive type of dogs are like that, and they needs lots of time to mature. If trained correctly, they will become extremely strong. But if not... Well, they get ruined and flagged as weak nerved.

On the other end, I've found that dogs said to have strong nerves often simply lack strong defensive instinct. They are innocent, and simply trust everything is nice and beautiful. Also incidents as a young puppy can turn on some sort of "jihad" gene


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## cliffson1

Excellent Post Jarko....we have redefined nerve today based on sport field etiquette, as opposed to reality working traits. Which is valid if you consider the sport field the epitome of work. Many very successful working dogs are considered lacking in nerve when judged from this perspective by these ardent practitioners.
Notwithstanding, there are some fine working dogs in sport, but the criteria for strong nerve for puppy has almost become Labrador temperament with ears standing.


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## martemchik

I have to disagree that the definition has been redefined due to sport. It was redefined due to pet ownership. A dog that is constantly on edge, always suspicious, and as a pup cautious about “every day” things, is an issue to pet people and not so much to sport people. I’ll admit that I wouldn’t want a dog like that being a "sport person", but the majority of sport people I know, are more than capable of dealing with a puppy/dog like that and not running off to the nearest internet forum for advice on how to socialize the dog and make it “normal.” Suspicion, and to a greater extreme, reactivity, is mostly a pet world problem. Sport people, even though many do live with their dogs and take them out into the world on a daily basis, have different goals and tend to have different expectations of the types of interactions their dogs participate in. They don’t really mind if the dog doesn’t want to greet every dog/person it sees, and that it might react “aggressively” in those situations. At the end of the day, most sport people greatly control their dog’s daily interactions and really do only care about how they perform on the field. It’s pet people that want rock solid nerves and a “go-everywhere” dog that loves everyone and everything that it meets.

The type of dog Jarkko describes…is successful in that home because Jarkko was ready and willing to take on that challenge. If that type of dog was placed in a family home, they’d be on this forum asking what’s wrong with their dog instead of understanding how that type of temperament can be used for your advantage, real working venue or sport.

I've yet to meet any Schutzhund or other bite sport person that wants a "Labrador with pointy ears," yet I've met plenty of pet people that want that exact thing.


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## Kaimeju

This is a really interesting thread to me, as someone new to working dogs and coming from a SAR perspective. Of the few people I have discussed this topic with, they described fear periods to me as being atypical of the dog's temperament almost by definition. It was also described to me as usually being a subtle and inexplicable change- fear of things the dog had already encountered before and not had a problem with- and also defined as being transitory. If not transitory and not atypical of the dog's temperament, then it's probably not a fear period but just fearfulness, period. I don't know how accurate that description is, but that was the assumption I was going on. 

One Belgian breeder I talked to had an interesting theory about fear periods: she said she thought they were the result of the pup's neurological sensitivity to stimuli developing faster than their ability to process it mentally. One day things are fine, the next things look scary and weird because their depth perception is different and objects literally look different to them. But this was more to explain environmental sensitivity- puppies that are suddenly afraid of stairs or trash cans they have seen before. 

My pup is 3/4 WG 1/4 Czech. I don't think I've ever seen a true fear period from him? Generally he is the life of the party and very confident. I have to acclimatize him to such a huge variety of things for SAR work, and he takes it all in stride. He's been climbing on metal playground equipment and playing with his flirt pole around train noise and construction noise since he was wee. People and dogs are no problem. He's probably met something like 200 people by now and never showed any avoidance of interacting with them. He was alarmed by horses at first but has recovered. However, he does do the hair raising (piloerection) thing seemingly at random every once in a while. He acts suspicious of people/dogs appearing "out of nowhere" when it is dark out, by which I mean piloerection and sometimes alarm barking if they get close to me or my vehicle. He's friendly once he meets them, however. I don't have enough experience to know whether that is related to a fear period, simply instinct to alert, or poor nerves. I assume the alarm barking around the vehicle is typical and will probably stick around. I think he can develop greater confidence in dark areas with gradual exposure. 

The thing is, I don't think he has poor nerves because he performs well under pressure. We were doing air scent exercises at the last training and one was set up so that he had to run by a van and the dogs inside started barking at him. He was distracted but not fearful and showed no hesitation at going back to work when I verbally encouraged him. My other dog, who does have poor nerves, would never have refocused completely after something like that.


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## Jarkko

martemchik said:


> Sport people, even though many do live with their dogs and take them out into the world on a daily basis, have different goals and tend to have different expectations of the types of interactions their dogs participate in. They don’t really mind if the dog doesn’t want to greet every dog/person it sees, and that it might react “aggressively” in those situations. At the end of the day, most sport people greatly control their dog’s daily interactions and really do only care about how they perform on the field. It’s pet people that want rock solid nerves and a “go-everywhere” dog that loves everyone and everything that it meets.


Exactly! My dog is not even on the extreme end. IPO people I train with generally consider dog good if it shines on the field. Bites hard, takes all the pressure etc, you know all that. What happens outside the field is irrelevant. If the dog is aggressive, well, then he is trained to behave. But of course most people would still like to have a social and friendly dog who is at the same time killer on the field. But the performance is the of course main priority.

I also think if the training is successful, meaning true control, the dog is relatively easy to live with, no matter what type of dog it is. That is our goal in the end anyways, so it shouldn't really matter what kind of temperament the dog is. If he is okay in the head, he's a loving family dog just like any GSD. What happens outside home is a matter of training. We shouldn't expect the dog to "just know" how the human society works.


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## Blitzkrieg1

I was recently dealing with a Police dept. 

This was what they wanted:

Dog cant be to too civil
Dog cant be handler aggressive
Stranger should be able to take the dog out of his crate and walk him around
Dog has to be social
Dog has to take corrections well

Dog must have high hunt and high prey + good biting, but not too much drive that he overwhelms the handler.

This is what this particular end user was looking for. They are actually fairly reasonable compared to want lists I have heard from other depts.

That right there eliminates the majority of breedworthy dogs.

Thank god for sport, it keeps the rest of the world with a steady supply of working quality dogs at affordable prices.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Recently had a National level Mal who is also a stud dog come to train at the club. Very strong dog with excellent speed and intensity. Had a litter on the ground. Handler informed us that he was not much interested in protection until he hit 2 and a half. At which point I lost interest in any of the pups.

Puppies are a crap shoot enough as it is without having to waste time and resources for 2-3 years before you know if the dog will even work.

I personally view late maturing as almost a genetic fault, I want to know if the dog can work by the time he hits 12-16 months. Prior to that I want to see lots of positive indicators that show he is headed in that direction.

Maybe not so important for pet folks but for work every day is precious time not to be wasted. If the dog is occupying a space and training time that another dog could be in thats a reasonably sure bet, I know which one I will pick.


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## Jarkko

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I personally view late maturing as almost a genetic fault, I want to know if the dog can work by the time he hits 12-16 months. Prior to that I want to see lots of positive indicators that show he is headed in that direction.


Just wanted to make sure I wasn't talking about this kind of maturing, more like the maturing of defense drive and aggression. Good dogs for sure want to work before that...


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## cliffson1

Two questions Martemchik......who is producing and breeding the gene pool from which the "quote" working dogs come from? Pet people or Sport? Two, if you are a person of typical mindset of sport folks, why did you say you would not want one of these type dogs even though it's acknowleged that many are good working dog? I would think you are probably in the mainstream of sport thinking and thus I don't understand why this type dog is not a " choice" of sport folks
Anyway, if folks think it's a pet problem, that's okay with me. whatever the reason, these type dogs are in decline. So I agree with you Matemchik...


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## Kaimeju

Whoops, just saw this is in IPO/Schutzhund. My comment is OT. Please ignore/delete.


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## martemchik

The majority of what I consider high level and highly competitive sport people aren’t producing their own dogs. There are tons of breeders that refuse to breed a dog that those people would purchase because they still have to place the other puppies and to many, the risk of getting that dog back is too much. The majority of those types of people are getting their dogs the same way that working venues do…a year into their life when they’ve seen what the dog has developed into naturally.

The answer to your second question is quite simple. I have my own personal preferences for a sport dog just like you have your own personal preferences when it comes to working dogs. Plenty of people that I’ve met, don’t mind the type of dog I prefer for a real working venue as well. I’ve also met plenty of people through sport that still prefer the type of dog you speak of. It’s not hard to understand why “your type” of dog, isn’t the “choice” for sport people. You prefer one type, someone else prefers another type. While both types are capable of success in both venues, some trainers like stronger nerves, other trainers like more suspicion. I’ve seen this in both the working world and the sport world. There is no single, one right answer to this “problem.” The highest levels of sport require much more accuracy and precision than real world venues. Real world venues are goal oriented, sport is points oriented. For you, as long as your dog achieves the desired outcome, you don’t care how the dog looks doing it. For me, I need to worry a lot about how the dog looks while it’s performing the required task. Therefore, less suspicion and more focus from a stronger nerved dog is my preference. Again, not to say that a highly suspicious dog has “weak nerves” but it does to a certain extent have weaker nerves than a dog that shows confidence from day one. I also don’t need my dog thinking that everything in this world is life threatening and might need to be lit up at some point. I like the focus I can get on the task at hand, rather than having to work through the dog’s natural suspicion because it doesn’t trust the world around it.

The biggest difference I see is that a puppy out of a “stronger nerved” pedigree, is easier to handle for the pet population. So if you have a litter of 10 puppies, and 2 go to a sport/working home, the rest are going to pet homes. A suspicious, borderline reactive puppy, will freak out many pet owners…this has been proven time and time again with the almost weekly “how do I socialize my dog” threads on this forum. You and I both know there is a very small population of breeders that are truly aiming for working/sport homes…I’ve even seen breeders admit that they won’t place their puppies in those types of homes because then they’re “expendable equipment.” Great working dogs tend to have one thing in common…a capable handler that wants them to become a great working dog, no matter what the venue of choice, it’s generally up to the handler to allow the dog to reach its full potential.

I don’t have any doubts that a dog that performs well on the Schutzhund field, at a higher level event, would have any issue being a K9 or working in a different venue if the handler had chosen that path, and vice versa, a K9 or a successful working dog could achieve Schutzhund titles if that was the goal of the training from the start.


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## Jarkko

martemchik, I wish there was a like button (is there? I didn't see). I totally agree, this is mainly a matter of taste, and most likely it is something similar to a taste in cars - you like what you are used to. Some trainers really like dogs with a bit of edge, roughness and seriousness. Some people like more prey types. Overall, my opinion is that prey types with solid nerves are the best for sport.

When it comes to real work... Well we never know, IPO is just a game. I'd still like to think (what did I say about preferences? ) that dogs with some serious edge have advantages when the environment changes radically, because the basic assumption of these dog is that world is a hostile place, nothing comes as a surprise. That is of course if the dog has been successfully trained to handle pressure, not rushing things too much because it is not game for these dogs, they are for real.

I don't mind if this "edge" is called "weak nerve". Because that's what it is, if that is the definition of nerve strength.


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## martemchik

I really don’t like when people say IPO is just a game…I train my dogs in IPO, feel free to enter my house and test them on how they feel about an intruder in their home. It’s also not very difficult for myself, or my girlfriend, to give a command to any one of our dogs and get them to either watch or even bark at any stranger we see out in the real world.

I really love these discussions on the forum, but the biggest issue we have is that we make everything an absolute or an extreme. It’s hard to discuss particular dogs or actions because there are so many different reasons why a dog might act the way it does. All of the dogs in my house have strong nerves. One of them definitely has lower thresh holds and will bite quicker. She’s also the most “prey” dog in the house and has what most would consider the strongest nerve. The other dog is definitely “defensive” and more suspicious. She’s focused, but not as focused as the first dog I mentioned. There is also a huge disparity in the type of training the dogs received in the first two years of their lives, which has more than likely led to some of the behaviors we see in both dogs today. Neither dog has any environmental issues and can be approached by anyone and anything when we're just walking around in the real world. The “suspicious” dog, that I have a feeling cliff would actually really like, has a littermate that is balanced a lot like her and was at the USCA nationals this year. So clearly, even though both dogs are defensive and on the spectrum of things much more suspicious and do have weaker nerves than some of the higher prey/stronger nerve dogs I’ve seen, they’re still both capable of high level sport. The “prey” dog, has a littermate that is an active K9 in Florida. Kind of interesting that what most people consider the “better sport dog” has a sibling in an active working home, and that the dog which more people might consider the “better working dog” has a sibling that went to the highest level of sport competition in our country.

As an aside…that male littermate was bred to the “prey” dog in my house. So that aggression which comes from the more defensive dogs is definitely not something we’re trying to avoid or ignore. Natural aggression is definitely a welcome ability in the dog I prefer to train/handle/own. Makes training guarding and barking much easier…just needs to come with enough prey to where the dog can show the power, focus, and willingness to obey the handler at a high enough level that the other phases of the routine don’t suffer.


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## Baillif

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Recently had a National level Mal who is also a stud dog come to train at the club. Very strong dog with excellent speed and intensity. Had a litter on the ground. Handler informed us that he was not much interested in protection until he hit 2 and a half. At which point I lost interest in any of the pups.
> 
> Puppies are a crap shoot enough as it is without having to waste time and resources for 2-3 years before you know if the dog will even work.
> 
> I personally view late maturing as almost a genetic fault, I want to know if the dog can work by the time he hits 12-16 months. Prior to that I want to see lots of positive indicators that show he is headed in that direction.
> 
> Maybe not so important for pet folks but for work every day is precious time not to be wasted. If the dog is occupying a space and training time that another dog could be in thats a reasonably sure bet, I know which one I will pick.


Ivan's current national champion Ebor was a puppy he sold and had returned to him because it "didn't care for the work."


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## carmspack

I like Jarkko's posts which bring an old part of the GSD back into discussion. If you were to read early breed standard "character" descriptions you would find , aloof and something along the lines of suspicious or sharp.
That sharp doesn't mean - on edge or shy aggressive . It means observant, aware, watchful . 
Some dogs , particularly some of the DDR lines held a resource of this. When this was known and appreciated , one could make wise breeding decisions and use this positively . There is real need for balance in the breed because there are so many traits which are contradictory or in conflict to each other . What other breed(s) are highly independent , able to analyse and take charge of a situation -- and at the very same moment need to be totally compliant and biddable to the handler . This is why the herding genetics are important .
This breed is not specialist .

If you have too much suspicion then the dog can be reactive and make errors in being aggressive or need relief and need to resort to escape or flight.
If you have too little then the dog is too dull , blasé and offer no initiative to defend . Neither end is good.

One particular strong dog that comes to mind is the DDR dog Zorro Laagerwall , who was and threw good aggression , said to be anti social . 
Pups need to be shown what is the big world , and what is normal . Not having every stranger loving on them. Not forcing attention or romping with dogs . No pressure to meet hallmarks -- just allowed to grow up , be an apprentice to life . 
I don't think these kinds of dogs are understood.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Baillif said:


> Ivan's current national champion Ebor was a puppy he sold and had returned to him because it "didn't care for the work."


Sounds like it is a genetic trait in those lines. Very nice dogs but 2 years without knowing what you have still doesn't work for me personally. If he sold the dog it doesn't sound like he expects that either. If Ebor is anything like the dog I saw (they are at many of the same competitions) I can understand why the owner returned him when he woke up..lol.


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## Baillif

The owner returned the dog because it didn't wake up but the problem ended up not being the dog. They just didn't motivate the dog the right way and squashed drive


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## onyx'girl

carmspack said:


> I like Jarkko's posts which bring an old part of the GSD back into discussion. If you were to read early breed standard "character" descriptions you would find , aloof and something along the lines of suspicious or sharp.
> That sharp doesn't mean - on edge or shy aggressive . It means observant, aware, watchful .
> Some dogs , particularly some of the DDR lines held a resource of this. When this was known and appreciated , one could make wise breeding decisions and use this positively . * There is real need for balance in the breed because there are so many traits which are contradictory or in conflict to each other* . What other breed(s) are highly independent , able to analyse and take charge of a situation -- and at the very same moment need to be totally compliant and biddable to the handler . This is why the herding genetics are important .
> This breed is not specialist .
> 
> If you have too much suspicion then the dog can be reactive and make errors in being aggressive or need relief and need to resort to escape or flight.
> If you have too little then the dog is too dull , blasé and offer no initiative to defend . Neither end is good.
> 
> One particular strong dog that comes to mind is the DDR dog Zorro Laagerwall , who was and threw good aggression , said to be anti social .
> Pups need to be shown what is the big world , and what is normal . Not having every stranger loving on them. Not forcing attention or romping with dogs . No pressure to meet hallmarks -- just allowed to grow up , be an apprentice to life .
> I don't think these kinds of dogs are understood.


agree, and yet, the dog for sport that is a bit edgy isn't as easy to work so most want that dog who doesn't show any suspicion or a dog that may be a thinker...they want a dog that does 'because l said so, here is your reward'.


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## GatorDog

I prefer a dog who works for a reward, yes. Not one that I have to convince. Shame...I know.


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## Baillif

GatorDog said:


> I prefer a dog who works for a reward, yes. Not one that I have to convince. Shame...I know.


Amen to that.


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## onyx'girl

GatorDog said:


> I prefer a dog who works for a reward, yes. Not one that I have to convince. Shame...I know.


l think most of us do...no shame in that 
The thinking dog is much more a challenge, but then, some love a challenge.


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## GatorDog

onyx'girl said:


> l think most of us do...no shame in that
> The thinking dog is much more a challenge, but then, some love a challenge.


I've had the challenge. Finished him, retired him. Wasn't nearly as much fun as I'm having now.


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## cliffson1

@ Martemchik?....the dog I raised and sent to police last year was primarily defense with strong aggression and good nerve. The dog before him was high prey and high fight and he went to LE. Dog before that was high prey great hunt drive and fabulous tracker, currently a very nice Sch three dog....my question to you is which of these is supposedly " my type". I don't remember saying what my type was but maybe you could refresh my memory.


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## lhczth

I enjoy thinking dogs, smart dogs who tend find their own way to do things. They keep me on my toes and make me constantly look outside the box. Not always easy dogs to handle, but so much fun to work. Probably why I prefer working bitches. They just HAVE to do things their own way.


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## gsdsar

lhczth said:


> I enjoy thinking dogs, smart dogs who tend find their own way to do things. They keep me on my toes and make me constantly look outside the box. Not always easy dogs to handle, but so much fun to work. Probably why I prefer working bitches. They just HAVE to do things their own way.



Dear God woman. You just described Lena to a tee. Totally made me a better handler. Dog is too **** smart. I am pretty sure she is positive she is smarter than me. Most likely correct!!

I also like a thinking GSD. I like my labs happy go lucky goofy, I like my GSD a partner. Like we are "in this together". Unfortunately. That means I often have to do some convincing that I am right. I do love a challenge.


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## Jarkko

carmspack said:


> One particular strong dog that comes to mind is the DDR dog Zorro Laagerwall , who was and threw good aggression , said to be anti social .
> Pups need to be shown what is the big world , and what is normal . Not having every stranger loving on them. Not forcing attention or romping with dogs . No pressure to meet hallmarks -- just allowed to grow up , be an apprentice to life .
> I don't think these kinds of dogs are understood.


My opinion is that dog can be antisocial and even plain aggressive as long as he is trainable and accepts guidance from (responsible and fair) handler. I don't think this is what we should aim at, but it's ok. But it's funny sometimes when people talk about socializing... but really they want dogs that doesn't need that, they are social automatically. Well some dogs really need this, and they need it a lot! They might need some serious training also when socializing. How about that?

Sometimes I think our world has changed so much that we don't even understand what people were talking about 100 years ago. For example this quote from Blitzkrieg1's signature "Such shy animals...". I'd like to know if working dogs back then really were the all-loving pets (and at the same time killer beasts in work) we like to think. I don't think so. I think they were antisocial and aggressive by our standards.


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## lhczth

gsdsar said:


> Dear God woman. You just described Lena to a tee. Totally made me a better handler. Dog is too **** smart. I am pretty sure she is positive she is smarter than me. Most likely correct!!
> 
> I also like a thinking GSD. I like my labs happy go lucky goofy, I like my GSD a partner. Like we are "in this together". Unfortunately. That means I often have to do some convincing that I am right. I do love a challenge.


She is one of my dogs. ROFL Her niece KNOWS she is smarter than me and that I am always wrong and she is right and at times she is more than willing to inform me of that. :O


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## onyx'girl

Jarkko said:


> My opinion is that dog can be antisocial and even plain aggressive as long as he is trainable and accepts guidance from (responsible and fair) handler. I don't think this is what we should aim at, but it's ok. But it's funny sometimes when people talk about socializing... but really they want dogs that doesn't need that, they are social automatically. Well some dogs really need this, and they need it a lot! They might need some serious training also when socializing. How about that?
> 
> Sometimes I think our world has changed so much that we don't even understand what people were talking about 100 years ago. For example this quote from Blitzkrieg1's signature "Such shy animals...". I'd like to know if *working dogs back then really were the all-loving pets (and at the same time killer beasts in work) we like to think. I don't think so. I think they were antisocial and aggressive by our standards.*


my step-dad had two GSD's that were his guard dogs back in the 70's. He owned a service station and impound lot for the local police dept. The dogs were huge deterrents to anyone trying to get to their rides once they were impounded...the dogs weren't social by any means, yet when they did come home now and then to swim in the pool, get brushed out and take a break from the station, they were fine with family. But they were not social with other animals or people they didn't have a relationship with. 
Many stories of how they protected the station, many people were stopped tresspassing/breaking in. Who even uses guard dogs for this type situation anymore? I'm glad they don't...video cameras are much more humane.


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## lhczth

My first GSD was from VERY old lines. She was aloof, but totally sound around people. Definitely not a junk yard dog. I think there has always been variety in our breed as far as temperament. There were nerve issues in the early dogs too, but also very sound dogs. They would have never become popular if they were antisocial animals that were unsafe in crowds (guide dogs anyone) or all sharp dogs with a low threshold for defense. The breeders used to just be better at maintaining the balance.


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## lhczth

This was to be a thinking breed, bred to work WITH their handlers, protect their people, yet be safe with children and those welcomed into the home. 

As far as the topic. I have seen dogs go through some odd stages as they mature and learn about the world, but I don't actually believe in "fear periods" as most people use the term.


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## Jarkko

lhczth said:


> They would have never become popular if they were antisocial animals that were unsafe in crowds (guide dogs anyone) or all sharp dogs with a low threshold for defense. The breeders used to just be better at maintaining the balance.


Are you absolutely sure? From what I've read, this was true to dogs who were not sound around SHEEP. Meaning dogs who couldn't resist the temptation and went on chasing sheep without permission. Those dogs were hung to the nearest tree. Shepherds were poor people who couldn't afford any sheep to be killed by an unsound dog. I've never read anything about dogs attitude towards people, especially strangers... I guess it would have an advantage for a dog to just nail any stranger approaching the flock 

To be honest, of course clear-headed GSD is neutral to people who are _neutral_ (I think this is in the breed specification). But this is the big but: what about people who stare, who sweat, who act weird, who are unstable? What I mean is this: I know my dogs are stable around neutral people, because they have been tested multiple times for that. But if some guy approaches them with even a slightest hesitation, stares, or anything like that, he simply stops being neutral, and in that situation my dogs most likely need to be under command.

I think this "neutrality" is by large a mental thing, a chain reaction. If the handler is unsure, the dog doesn't really radiate trust around people. So what happens is that people also start to be unsure, and the dogs gets alert because of this, which makes the handler even more unsure, and so it eventually leads to reaction.


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## onyx'girl

Jarkko said:


> I think this "neutrality" is by large a mental thing, a chain reaction. If the handler is unsure, the dog doesn't really radiate trust around people. So what happens is that people also start to be unsure, and the dogs gets alert because of this, which makes the handler even more unsure, and so it eventually leads to reaction.


This is very true and new handlers with a growing puppy that begins to show reactivity around 7-8 months doesn't always read the dog correctly and then fears taking the dog out and about...which does go down the line. 
When the handler isn't confident the dog feels that and then feels the need to be in control...mentally can't deal with all that control so reacts unnecessarily.
The young dog should always know the handler is the one to control the dogs world, so the dog doesn't have that burden.


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## Cassidy's Mom

lhczth said:


> As far as the topic. I have seen dogs go through some odd stages as they mature and learn about the world, but I don't actually believe in "fear periods" as most people use the term.


Halo went through a weird, spooky phase that we'd never seen before. I wouldn't call it a fear period either, but she'd bark at a lot of really benign stuff (older grey haired women - really??? ), but she matured out of it just fine and nothing really phases her anymore. She's actually pretty social with people, and can be quite kissy, even when meeting new people. Unless there's a ball around, and then she doesn't give a crap about anyone - "gimme the ball!", lol. 



Jarkko said:


> To be honest, of course clear-headed GSD is neutral to people who are _neutral_ (I think this is in the breed specification). But this is the big but: what about people who stare, who sweat, who act weird, who are unstable? What I mean is this: I know my dogs are stable around neutral people, because they have been tested multiple times for that. But if some guy approaches them with even a slightest hesitation, stares, or anything like that, he simply stops being neutral, and in that situation my dogs most likely need to be under command.


That was another thing about Halo's weird phase - she was super sensitive to people acting "off". If they came right up to her without hesitation she'd typically greet them in a friendly fashion, but if they stood a few feet away and stared at her she might bark at them. She'd be totally fine with someone in a wheelchair, but might react to someone who appeared physically normal but was clearly not quite right mentally. We were a bit concerned about it at the time, but again, she's matured into a pretty fabulous dog, and she's always been super confident and full of herself.


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## carmspack

the fear shouldn't be incapacitating , more of an awareness and intelligent caution --- a moments pause , maybe a slight rise of the hackles - but still forward movement .


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## lhczth

Yes, agree, Carmen.


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## MadLab

I own a bitch that was quite environmentally fearful as a pup. She is non gsd and a bully mix/ don't know if is so relavent to you guys here but my 2 cents shall be added. Anyone with serious bs gsd detector can tune out now lol. I can see how she would be clearly a bad dog to train for sport but she is a man stopper and showed some serious human aggression as a pup. That could have been nurtured and developed but i rather developed ways to accept and stop the aggression. Kind of reverse engineered protection training. It took from around 9 months to 21 months to make her safe around children and people and to cure the environmental stress of streets noise, bins, prams and push chairs.

I saw her as having serious prey instinct(real prey like here comes danger or dinner). No play drive as a pup. She didn't chase a ball. She chased people and barked and held them as a distinct instinct. If they concealed anything like something under her jacket she was much more aggressive. If they showed fear she got more intense.

She knew she is a serious predator and also that people are predators and she was in competition with them. I feel some people forget a human is a predator.

I guess my point is a fearful temperament dog can be a serious protection dog or guard dog but will not have the right temperament for a protection sport or a working dog.

in some regards i see the environmental stress as a plus in working terms. This dog anyways noticed if anything was different on the street like a stray shoe box or bag on the ground. She spotted security cameras when we were on walks and would bark at them. Anything un-natural was possibly bogus to her. Any one different or nervous was suspect.

A big thing she hated was umbrellas. Especially if someone opens one on front of her. 

This is a traditional courage test for prospective schutzhund gsds. I feel it would be important for a dog to have a positive or inquisitive reaction when people open an umbrella on front of them. It is a simply test of a pups worth. 

With my girl i got like 4 umbrellas and opened them and made her walk around them and lie under them and embrace them. It verged on cruelty but it got her over this irrational fear. Also plagued her with bin bags blown up or coats or anything really.

Muzzled her let her follow me through people in busy streets or the beach. It took a long time but she actually likes people now.

In the trad schutz tests a dog should not react badly to friendly or non threatening strangers. It should be frightened by very little. 

At the end of this post i shall simply say the old tests are as relevant today as ever to access courage in a dog from a young age. A sport dog or working dog should have sound nerves and be clear headed enough to accept non threatening people and objects. 

When some one is assessing a dog these tests should be carried out. Nobody really mentions these tests now even when discussing fear periods etc.

From my own experience i see that a sound pet and serious guard dog can be achieved from a fearful temperament but it takes too much work to actually achieve anything and a lot of uncertainty exists when in the mist of fear. 

The original formula should be followed for the gsd breed and overly fearful dogs and bitches should not be bred to preserve the breeds integrity. 

Well done to anyone who made it this far.  Hope wasn't too far off topic or interrupted the conversation too much.


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## zetti

lhczth said:


> This was to be a thinking breed, bred to work WITH their handlers, protect their people, yet be safe with children and those welcomed into the home.
> 
> As far as the topic. I have seen dogs go through some odd stages as they mature and learn about the world, but I don't actually believe in "fear periods" as most people use the term.


Lisa,

Have you ever seen a pup go backwards? I've got a 12 mo old WGWL who was, until recently, very outgoing with humans--jumped up & joyfully greeted everyone he met. He just, out of nowhere, developed a fear of men. He shies away from them. He still bounces up to women.

This has been happening on walks, not when he's in drive. I plan to take him to the club when we get to our new city just for the socialization. He loved the TD at our old club.

He's not showing any defensiveness, just shyness. I'm so disappointed, he seemed so promising--tons of drive, high energy, trainable, intelligent, outgoing--well, he was.


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## Cassidy's Mom

I wouldn't give up on him yet, zetti. It could be just a phase. Halo is also WGWL, and her weird phase started when she was a little over a year old, but was over before she turned two. 

Now she's one of the "bombproof" dog on our flyball team, that we bring out when working with green dogs who might chase, because she's so focused that she doesn't care.


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## lhczth

Yes, at about that age. Don't make a big deal about it. Don't force him to like people. Allow him to be totally neutral and ask the people to also be that way. Don't coddle or baby him. Keep training him. The dogs I have seen like this tend to be more aloof as they mature. Not aloof like in wanting to avoid people, but as in just not caring for non family. They also have been totally sound around people as they mature and some of my most serious protection dogs (and I mean dogs that bite out of confidence and not out of just a defensive position). They did need strong leadership as they matured so they learned how to behave in a neutral situation. 

Hope that makes sense.


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## Cassidy's Mom

lhczth said:


> They did need strong leadership as they matured so they learned how to behave in a neutral situation.


^This!!!


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## lhczth

Nike was an interesting dog as a young dog. She was very social as long as people allowed her to jump up and greet them. IF they pushed her away, she would have nothing more to do with them. She matured into a super confident dog with high social aggression yet was very sound around friends and family including kids. She also was very aloof. She loved me, my husband and my parents. For a long time the rest of the world didn't exist except when working. As she aged she became more social with others, but as a young dog she liked to push people. 

Deja, Nike's granddaughter, also went through a strange stage about people at around a year. Same thing, showing avoidance especially around men. It went away. She is also very aloof though as she ages (she is 6) she will greet people at some point for a quick pet and then is off to do her own thing again. She, again, is extremely strong in protection, but very sound in a social setting. She, though, is a bully and I have to keep a strong eye on her at times especially at home if I have a visitor that she is not familiar with. She likes to push people and look for weakness.  

LOL As I write this I realize how similar they are.


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## onyx'girl

Onyx is like that too at maturity...though it was women she would act differently with when she was immature. Her vets were mostly women, after her spay she changed bigtime. 
She is my bully, now with Kacie gone, she is a bit lost, no one to bully, no one to herd, no one to act like a bully to as the boys don't fall for her act.


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## Carriesue

My boy went through a couple of odd phases, one at about a year old he suddenly didn't want anything to do with kids but it went away quickly... I just ignored it and kept going and training but not forcing kids on him. Then at about 2 he suddenly decided strangers weren't allowed to approach me anymore and would bark at them. I did the same thing, didn't make a big deal of it and it went away a couple months later.


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## lhczth

I am not talking about bullying other dogs (though that is there too), Jane, but wanting to bully people.


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## onyx'girl

lhczth said:


> I am not talking about bullying other dogs (though that is there too), Jane, but wanting to bully people.


onyx does the same, though l manage her so she never gets an opportunity...she looks for weakness as well. l remember saying l'd never want a do over with her, but l think l would now that l know her quirks.


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## zetti

My pup's dam sounds like Lisa's Deja. She'll jump up & give you a quick greeting, then she's off.

She has her Protection Dog I title through SDA.

I really don't want to give up on this guy, based on his confident behavior when he was younger. I've been very matter of fact with him around men, praising him when he finally does approach--his natural inquisitivness eventually gets the better of him.

The really odd thing is, he gets really excited when any human approches, dragging me over there to see them, then skitters away when a man gets too close.


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## lhczth

Don't praise him for approaching. Ignore him. You and those around you need to act naturally and neutral. If you can't control the encounters it is better to not allow them at all.


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## carmspack

making strong social overtures isn't exactly right for the breed . The dog should be aware , yet neutral , neither attracting or avoiding attention. When attention is given there should be an aloof indifference , tolerance .
GSD that are too attention seeking tend to have anxiety , feel social pressures . 
A young pup might be rude and mob someone but this is different.

I remember going to one big show Nationals conformation and the dogs would go up to the judge , get on their hind feet and lick the judge who then said "and they say we have a temperament problem in the breed".
Yet in the lineup the physical tension , the tightness of the tail , the darting eyes and the jumpiness was very apparent .


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## cliffson1

And these Judges are considered experts by virtue of their position and title.......smh!!!


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## WesS

carmspack said:


> making strong social overtures isn't exactly right for the breed . The dog should be aware , yet neutral , neither attracting or avoiding attention. When attention is given there should be an aloof indifference , tolerance .
> GSD that are too attention seeking tend to have anxiety , feel social pressures .
> A young pup might be rude and mob someone but this is different.
> 
> I remember going to one big show Nationals conformation and the dogs would go up to the judge , get on their hind feet and lick the judge who then said "and they say we have a temperament problem in the breed".
> Yet in the lineup the physical tension , the tightness of the tail , the darting eyes and the jumpiness was very apparent .


You do realise it's really easy to mask or change the reaction of dogs to such stimuli rather easily with a bit of training, irrelevant of breed. I think this is where asl fail in that they don't have any titling requirements. It's one thing to train a dog to conform to the things you mentioned, and it's another thing to have it titles and sound outside of the field too. 

End of the day I could care less what most of those judges have to say. It's about the reputation of breeder, or the dogs being bred. Without proof of work, or official titles, indicating better balance and sound temperament. I think the rest can't stand on its own. 

I could and can still not understand how these guys look at a dog and judge how it should interact, move and so on, with a bit of trot, and a lineup. This is for the money pot. It's easy. They award dogs in their circles. I don't think there is anything great about the whole process.

Knew a lady involved intricately in the system (not gsd), and got out gasping in horror with how the inner circle were awarding wins to dogs with financial interest attached.

With the sports however, sure there is points and subjectivity, but at the end of the day, the dogs either can or can't perform. It's just a matter of how well.


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## MadLab

"in the lineup the physical tension , the tightness of the tail , the darting eyes and the jumpiness was very apparent" . 

"You do realise it's really easy to mask or change the reaction of dogs to such stimuli rather easily with a bit of training" 

I would think those signs of weak nerves are really subtle and cannot be masked at all. And I think that was the point, and maybe you should read between the lines a bit more. 

When Carmspack speaks you should listen. lol


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## carmspack

I have no idea what your intention was with this comment WesS "You do realise it's really easy to mask or change the reaction of dogs to such stimuli rather easily with a bit of training, irrelevant of breed"

I did handle GSD in specialty and all-breed conformation shows. Saw the best and the worst from both sides of the ring.

Too much resistance and outright opposition , I was one of two or three people that spearheaded the institution of a temperament test at the National club's annual show which crowned the respective country's Grand Victor / Grand Victrix. 

How does a breeding programme progress or a breed's character be kept with integrity is everything is a sham . These trials are there to reveal not to hide .

So how bad did it get ?
There was CKC licensed judges and his pal a well known handler , that would try to unnerve me with heckling and physically blocking me from entering the ring . Win or lose I was there to represent a dog , an ideal , which may very well have been very different from the status quo , counter trend . One time this judge/handler , spectator that day , with his own dogs entered , took it upon himself to hurl an empty pop can at me . Not disciplined. Put down the excitement of the moment. 

Sour grapes . I don't think so . I have produced ROM's , Best in Show, and High in Trial (same day , same dog , amateur owner/handled) , dogs used that produced Specialty Winners .


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