# What would happen if a puppy is never properly socialized?



## Madisonmj97 (Mar 10, 2014)

He's really skittish around people and sometimes but now often, put in a little growl... So my question is what would happen if he was never socialized too well?


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

It really depends on the dog and it's genetic nerve strength. Some dogs grow up in a kennel, coming out only to work and are very social and stable, some dogs are heavily socialized as puppies and are fearful. 




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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

agree with gsdsar. Here is a good thread: 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...0-rethinking-popular-early-socialization.html


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

What do you think socialization is? That is a serious question. People have different ideas of it.

As gsdsar says, it depends on the dog. I got my puppy right before it got so cold and miserable so he missed the ideal socialization time. However, he has very good nerve so anything he is suspicious of he checks out and recovers quickly.

With your puppy, I would say get a trainer and work on behavior modification. Learn the tools. LAT, BAT.

Socialization is not having your puppy meet a ton of people and dogs. It's exposing him to many new things and helping him work through his fear.


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## Madisonmj97 (Mar 10, 2014)

So would he most likely be aggressive when he's an adult? The breeder I got him from had two young kids and they had even already named the pups and would play with them and all, but the dad is a police dog but they said the mom was more social... So that's why I'm worried about that considering the dad being a police dog. But I wouldn't think that'd have anything to do with genetics since they're trained to be .


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

If the dog is of good nerve with balance in the drives and temperament the aggression will only come out when necessary. That does come from genetics, not so much the training or socializing the dog has had. 
If your puppy is fearful and shows reactive aggression that is fear based, it is genetic.


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## Madisonmj97 (Mar 10, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> If the dog is of good nerve with balance in the drives and temperament the aggression will only come out when necessary. That does come from genetics, not so much the training or socializing the dog has had.
> If your puppy is fearful and shows reactive aggression that is fear based, it is genetic.


Ahhh... Not good, like he growled at my grandmother when she came in my room and I've never had a puppy growl nonplayfully.. So yeah, it kinda threw me off a bit


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

so what did you do when that happened?


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Two red flags are the use of "social but protective" and "police dog" (rarely true, just a sales pitch....). Be prepared for anything and everything. I have a genetically weak-nerved dog, and looking back I could have made everything a lot easier if I knew what I was dealing with from the start. Usually with dogs like mine, flooding them with all sorts of new experiences without knowing how to manage it is going to make the problem worse, not better. I definitely agree with learning about LAT/BAT.


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## Madisonmj97 (Mar 10, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> so what did you do when that happened?


Said NO pretty loud.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

He's just a baby. They're freaked out by things that we don't see immediately. Could be the smell of her laundry soap being different or a slight irregularity to how she walks.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

SunCzarina said:


> He's just a baby. They're freaked out by things that we don't see immediately. Could be the smell of her laundry soap being different or a slight irregularity to how she walks.


I hate the "he's just a baby/young" reasoning. That's such a crap excuse and people use it so often.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

an 8 week old pup is just a baby! Everything is new. Though....I'd want the pup to recover and show confidence in most situations. Keeping the confidence level up is most important, and not coddling a pup when it shows hesitation but encourage the puppy to think of those 'scary situations' as no big deal.


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## ZoeD1217 (Feb 7, 2014)

boomer11 said:


> I hate the "he's just a baby/young" reasoning. That's such a crap excuse and people use it so often.


I see this all the time. So what do you think about a pup growling at people? At what age is this a real problem? 

Mine has taken to growling and barking at everyone who walks past our fence. I'm not really sure what I'm supposed to do about the behavior. I've excused it as puppy behavior (she's 12 weeks) and I think part of the problem is It's a privacy fence so she really can't clearly see who is Walking by. She also barked and growled at kids walking by our car when I was waiting to pick my kids up from school yesterday. 

It's really hard to figure out at what point certain behaviors are not just puppies being puppies...I don't want to ignore a possible issue. 

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## belladonnalily (May 24, 2013)

Do they normally use intact males as police dogs? 

I've always heard that was a line byb breeders use to make their pups sound special and appeal to uninformed buyers...

I don't think a growling 8 week old would bother me much, personally.

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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> Do they normally use intact males as police dogs?
> 
> I've always heard that was a line byb breeders use to make their pups sound special and appeal to uninformed buyers...
> 
> I don't think a growling 8 week old would bother me much, personally.


I would be concerned with an 8 week old pup growling out of fear(and most often it IS fear based!) Temperament and genetics show very early. I'd much rather have a confident pup that is curious and intrigued by anything they are exposed to. 

Many LEO K9's are intact, but,yea, that buzzword probably plays into marketing with some breeders.


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## Madisonmj97 (Mar 10, 2014)

boomer11 said:


> I hate the "he's just a baby/young" reasoning. That's such a crap excuse and people use it so often.


I agree, they need to learn early if you're ever going to be a good GSD owner. They can be pretty aggressive dogs if not trained right.


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## Madisonmj97 (Mar 10, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> an 8 week old pup is just a baby! Everything is new. Though....I'd want the pup to recover and show confidence in most situations. Keeping the confidence level up is most important, and not coddling a pup when it shows hesitation but encourage the puppy to think of those 'scary situations' as no big deal.


I call his name and just stares at me and won't come... He'll only do it when I have a treat.


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## Madisonmj97 (Mar 10, 2014)

belladonnalily said:


> Do they normally use intact males as police dogs?
> 
> I've always heard that was a line byb breeders use to make their pups sound special and appeal to uninformed buyers...
> 
> ...


Yup, I saw him. Supposedly the man who owns the police dog is chief of whritsville GA


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## GSDluver4lyfe (Nov 15, 2006)

onyx'girl said:


> an 8 week old pup is just a baby! Everything is new. Though....I'd want the pup to *recover* and show confidence in most situations. Keeping the confidence level up is most important, and not coddling a pup when it shows hesitation but encourage the puppy to think of those 'scary situations' as no big deal.


So true Jane!


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

Yes 8 weeks is just a baby but a growl at ANY age means the dog is nervous/uncomfortable with something. The "he'll grow out of it when he's more mature" is another crap excuse. 

You shouldn't have to ease a pup along. They shouldn't need to meet more people so that they are comfortable. They should be born comfortable and confident. Of course new things can scare a pup but it needs to recover quickly. 

You can tell a lot about a dogs nerves at 8 weeks old.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

An 8 week old puppy should not be skittish. 

In truth he should still be at the breeders , getting ready to leave .

"but the dad is a police dog but they said the mom was more social... So that's why I'm worried about that considering the dad being a police dog. But I wouldn't think that'd have anything to do with genetics since they're trained to be . "

this I don't believe . For all the dogs that are supposed to be police dogs there would be a veritable army of K9's, outnumbering human law enforcement officers. And genetics has everything to do with it . This enables them to be trained .


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

@Madisonmj97 - How long has it been since you adopted your puppy? If I am right in assuming it has only been a couple of days, I think you should be focusing your energy on building a positive, trusting relationship with your puppy. 

I am not a puppy expert, but I am sure others can share with you positive activities you can be doing with your puppy to build a bond.

I worry that all of your threads are assuming a negative about your pup… OCD, growling, etc… this is not the mindset you should have with a new pup. You should be working on finding ways to positively engage the puppy so as to build a relationship of trust between pup and handler. 

As I mentioned, I don’t have a lot of experience with puppies. But, the first thing I do with any foster dog, or dog I adopt, is work on building trust. Once I have that, I know I have solid footing that will help me work towards other goals.


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## Madisonmj97 (Mar 10, 2014)

carmspack said:


> An 8 week old puppy should not be skittish.
> 
> In truth he should still be at the breeders , getting ready to leave .
> 
> ...


I got him at 7 weeks... He will be 9 weeks this Thursday. I saw both parents and the mom was sweet and affectionate but the dad... I'd say no


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## Madisonmj97 (Mar 10, 2014)

LifeofRiley said:


> @Madisonmj97 - How long has it been since you adopted your puppy? If I am right in assuming it has only been a couple of days, I think you should be focusing your energy on building a positive, trusting relationship with your puppy.
> 
> I am not a puppy expert, but I am sure others can share with you positive activities you can be doing with your puppy to build a bond.
> 
> ...


 yes well I got him 3 weeks ago from a breeder... And my last adopted black GSD was extremely aggressive and I was just be cautious about it. I've never had a GSD pup act like this one. 
We've bonded pretty well also, so that's not a prob


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

Madisonmj97 said:


> yes well I got him 3 weeks ago from a breeder... And my last adopted black GSD was extremely aggressive and I was just be cautious about it. I've never had a GSD pup act like this one.
> We've bonded pretty well also, so that's not a prob


Okay, reading back on this thread, I am not sure why I thought you adopted through a shelter. I must have gotten your story crossed with someone else's. 

However, my advice to you remains the same, don't obsess about all the possible negatives, rather work toward building behaviors you want in your pup. Have fun with your pup, be the source of all good things, reward behaviors you like... again, others will have better input here. 

But, my message is, don't just observe the pup and fret, engage the pup!


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## Madisonmj97 (Mar 10, 2014)

LifeofRiley said:


> Okay, reading back on this thread, I am not sure why I thought you adopted through a shelter. I must have gotten your story crossed with someone else's.
> 
> However, my advice to you remains the same, don't obsess about all the possible negatives, rather work toward building behaviors you want in your pup. Have fun with your pup, be the source of all good things, reward behaviors you like... again, others will have better input here.
> 
> But, my message is, don't just observe the pup and fret, engage the pup!


I shall


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

I have to agree with people who are thinking its fear, and while it is a puppy, some times I do think given their lack of experiences mixed with insecurity comes out in that kind of fearful manner. Someone walking into a room unexpected could surprise any dog, or really any thing that is in the room, human, cat etc. Just because the initial sound from the puppy was a growl does not mean it will automatically be an aggressive animal. It was likely surprised by the presence of another and reacted. 

The first time my new puppy met my golden was when he leaped out of my SUV when we went to put the crate up in there, and I had forgotten that he was wearing a soft blue e-collar due to having a grass awn removed from his side the day before. Doyle instantly started sounding off at him, doing a bit of a pattern of getting closer and backing off. I removed the e-collar from Myles and by and large ignored the behavior. Just put Myles back in after the crate was loaded, and put the puppy back into the crate then drove to our next location. 

By the time that we went to the clinic I work at, then out for a hike so that all the dogs could meet one another on neutral ground, he'd forgotten or gotten past the fact the first time that he saw Myles, he had this odd blue demon about his neck. Now they're the best of friends and play bitey face all the time, curl up to sleep together. 

Guess I wouldn't instantly slap the word aggressive to the puppy, but maybe rather try to find ways to introduce things that stay at a comfortable level for him. That rethinking link someone posted is a great thread honestly. You may have the potential for him to be fearful if you aren't careful, but you should just use it to help you aim for the goal of helping him feel more confident about his safety and the world around him so that he can ignore what bothers him or trust you to keep him safe from what scares him.


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## Madisonmj97 (Mar 10, 2014)

Colie CVT said:


> I have to agree with people who are thinking its fear, and while it is a puppy, some times I do think given their lack of experiences mixed with insecurity comes out in that kind of fearful manner. Someone walking into a room unexpected could surprise any dog, or really any thing that is in the room, human, cat etc. Just because the initial sound from the puppy was a growl does not mean it will automatically be an aggressive animal. It was likely surprised by the presence of another and reacted.
> 
> The first time my new puppy met my golden was when he leaped out of my SUV when we went to put the crate up in there, and I had forgotten that he was wearing a soft blue e-collar due to having a grass awn removed from his side the day before. Doyle instantly started sounding off at him, doing a bit of a pattern of getting closer and backing off. I removed the e-collar from Myles and by and large ignored the behavior. Just put Myles back in after the crate was loaded, and put the puppy back into the crate then drove to our next location.
> 
> ...


Yup you seem to know a good bit. I'll see if your advice helps. But I've had a lot of experience with GSD and puppies that I've had in the past. This is the only one that is a little more yappy then my usual ones that I've experienced. I was just asking what would happen if my pup wasn't socialized proper. Have you ever had an 7 week old GS pup?


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## Madisonmj97 (Mar 10, 2014)

It's a bit different with pups then with adults tbh...


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

My first dog was probably around 8ish weeks when I got her, and I know for a fact that I didn't socialize her well at all. I've worked in shelters and am a vet tech, so I tend to see all kinds of dogs from different backgrounds all the time. Kenai was not really a nervous or fearful dog. However, due to her being my first dog, she was not well socialized with dogs or strangers. Unless you lived in the house (which was just my parents, me, brother and sister and my grandmother for a time), you were considered a stranger. Even if we always had friends over all the time. 

She would be right in people's faces when they came into the house, barking with her ruff up. If you pushed, she would back off and while she looked intimidating, it was all bluster. She would quiet down when they would be sitting, but any time that they stood up, she would be on her feet and barking at them again. It was a nuisance, but she was not aggressive by any means. People could walk past her. She never came all the way up to them. 

That is the only real experience that I have there with a puppy of that age frame. 

My current puppy I received when he was around 22 weeks of age. He had been socialized by his breeder, and I literally picked him based on pictures and a bit of video. He was curious when the man in the video was raking leaves and kept following the woman around in it with interest. He appeared bold and curious. The fact that after having him a total of 10 minutes that he would stretch out next to me where I was sitting on the floor at the vet clinic, quietly observing things. Then within the half hour of landing (he flew in from Portland), we were on a hike and he was with two new humans and a good... seven strange new dogs, eagerly romping after them and hanging near the humans, it has been a vastly different experience so far. He handles things with a calm and curious demeanor. However he also is a much more talkative boy than my first dog was lol. 

Every dog is unique.  Exposure without force I think is key in actually "socializing" your dog. I don't make Doyle meet everyone who we come in contact with, or get concerned if he backs away when a person tries to touch him. Strangers are a passing curiosity. Other dogs are either ignored or yelled at, even when he's loose in the foothills with a ton of people and dogs. It's on his terms there, nothing forced, many odd things to see and smell. He recovers very well when nervous. Given my last puppy (the golden) hit his second fear phase and decided people were scary, I've played the desensitizing game a lot with him.  Helps though that he's also a golden and not nearly as sensitive as a shepherd lol.


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## Serbrider (Jan 30, 2014)

My older dog was not socialized as a puppy (I was 12 when we got her, didn't know better, and my parents didn't either).

As a consequence, she is dog reactive on a leash, and wants absolutely nothing to do with other dogs. She is OK with my puppy, but needs her away time. If she is in the same enclosure with other dogs she will be all bold and assertive and then ignore them no matter what they do to her, but if even just a small fence separates them, she will bark and bark and bark, try to go after them.

She's not aggressive because we did do a lot with bite inhibition, proper behaviors when around other people and stomped out any possibility of aggression (from her, the reactiveness if around another aggressive dog is still a possibility)... but I also wouldn't ever go to a dog park or let her loose with more than one or two dogs.

Granted... she's not a GSD, and her drive is nowhere near as strong.

HOWEVER... she was encouraged to be confident. So many people think "socialization" and start forcing puppies to do all sorts of things. And that is very incorrect and can be very detrimental. Confidence is the key. Take puppies places or not, but only do what they can confidently do. Growling at this young of an age could mean a serious aggression problem... but 99% of the time it's fear. Not aggression. They will defend themselves... and growling and biting is a part of that. Going back to what they are confident with and slowly building up again ONLY as long as they continue to be confident... in you and in themselves, is the best way IMO to work through these issues.

Not forcing socialization.


As for the age... my pup Arya came home with me at 7 weeks. She is a very confident and friendly dog. When she loses confidence, she comes by me, and feeds off of my own confident energy... and she regains it. I don't push her to do anything she isn't confident enough to do. I build that confidence by having her do a little more each time... but I never force it. She loves new people, and loves to do new things.

Several of her littermates are the opposite. They will accept the "socialization"... but don't wag their tails or eagerly look forward to it. Instead, given the opportunity, they would rather hide in their kennel until the people went away.

Socialization isn't about having them meet as many people and dogs as possible and see as many things as possible. It's about getting them to be completely confident in as many places as possible. And there could be some places that they are never comfortable or confident in... and so you just don't bring them there. Some dogs would never do well going to say... a state fair. Whereas others would just love it. Did you fail in socialization by not forcing the former to go to the state fair? No. If your dog is confident going into most new experiences, and has a confident demeanor overall, your job is done IMO.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Yes 8 weeks is just a baby but a growl at ANY age means the dog is nervous/uncomfortable with something. *The "he'll grow out of it when he's more mature" is another crap excuse.*


 Not necessarily a "crap excuse" depending on the dog and it's lines, they do need to grow and mature to learn how to deal with their aggression. And at times you can have a pup that shows insecurity/un-sureness/reactivity when young and grow up to be more confident and fine when everything comes together..

I guess when your around a lot of dogs, you learn these things.. You keep an open mind.. You see the actual dogs as they mature...


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## belladonnalily (May 24, 2013)

I worked with a trainer (we talked almost daily) from day 1 with my pup and this is what I did with my pup at that age.

I ALWAYS had treats when I called him. On the rare occassion I didn't, I had a toy and made darn sure I made myself exciting and worth coming to. I didn't expect him to learn compulsory commands.

I didn't have fear issues with my pup, but constantly worked on reinforcing his confidence. No negative corrections, I let him "win" games, and tried not to put him in situations that might frighten him at that age. When he did seem unsure, I ignored and acted if nothing was wrong. I made some mistakes along the way, but I was fortunate that my pup came from a good breeder and confident parents.

The first thing my trainer drilled in to me was that I wanted my pup to be confident and trust me to keep him safe. It was totally new to me that I couldn't tell him NO all of the time and take things away (without a trade), but I believe it paid off.

You're getting better advice from the more experienced here, but this was just my journey. If your pup is nervous, which seems to be the consensus, I'd go overboard to build his confidence and not worry about "training" at this age (mine would only come when called for a treat at this age too). 

Good luck 

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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Madisonmj97 said:


> Yup you seem to know a good bit. I'll see if your advice helps. But I've had a lot of experience with GSD and puppies that I've had in the past. This is the only one that is a little more yappy then my usual ones that I've experienced. I was just asking what would happen if my pup wasn't socialized proper. Have you ever had an 7 week old GS pup?


Unfortunately, it sounds like you have a lot of experience with poorly trained/weak nerved/aggressive GSDs, so I would take the warnings and advice of those here and maybe you can help this one turn out alright.


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## Madisonmj97 (Mar 10, 2014)

DJEtzel said:


> Unfortunately, it sounds like you have a lot of experience with poorly trained/weak nerved/aggressive GSDs, so I would take the warnings and advice of those here and maybe you can help this one turn out alright.


Maybe, but I rather him be somewhat on alert then a scared skittish dog. Especially for when I go on walks at night... But just not over the top you know.


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## Madisonmj97 (Mar 10, 2014)

belladonnalily said:


> I worked with a trainer (we talked almost daily) from day 1 with my pup and this is what I did with my pup at that age.
> 
> I ALWAYS had treats when I called him. On the rare occassion I didn't, I had a toy and made darn sure I made myself exciting and worth coming to. I didn't expect him to learn compulsory commands.
> 
> ...


 thanks I'll try that!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

get your pup into training classes, learn how to read his body language correctly. Be proactive and redirect before reactivity happens. Fear aggression is not always something that the dog outgrows. It is up to the handler to manage and help the dog either overcome or deal with.

An 8 week old pup should know that the handler has its world under control so it can feel secure and grow confidently. You have your work cut out for you. I hope you can do it successfully.


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## Madisonmj97 (Mar 10, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> get your pup into training classes, learn how to read his body language correctly. Be proactive and redirect before reactivity happens. Fear aggression is not always something that the dog outgrows. It is up to the handler to manage and help the dog either overcome or deal with.
> 
> An 8 week old pup should know that the handler has its world under control so it can feel secure and grow confidently. You have your work cut out for you. I hope you can do it successfully.


Yup thanks!


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Madisonmj97 said:


> Maybe, but I rather him be somewhat on alert then a scared skittish dog. Especially for when I go on walks at night... But just not over the top you know.


You can have an alert dog that is not aggressive. 

I took my 4 y/o GSD out for a walk last night in the dark at a trail with a lot of traffic. He's confident and despite it being dark, did not get aggressive towards any of the people walking/jogging by, but showed great posture that he knew they were there and he was watching them. That said, I had full control over him the entire time and was not worried one bit. 

Dogs need to understand what is a threat and what isn't. It's likely that your dogs had weak nerves, potentially because of the quality of breeding, that caused their extreme reactions, both aggressively and fearfully.

If you want to stack the chances in your favor next time, get a well bred dog.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Should add that I hear all the time that its a "police dog" because its a dog who belongs to an officer.

A pet dog owned by a police officer does not equal a police dog.


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## Madisonmj97 (Mar 10, 2014)

GatorDog said:


> Should add that I hear all the time that its a "police dog" because its a dog who belongs to an officer.
> 
> A pet dog owned by a police officer does not equal a police dog.


It does with this one though obviously cause here's the dad.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Madisonmj97 said:


> It does with this one though obviously cause here's the dad.
> View attachment 190122


How does that "obviously" how that the dog is a police dog? It's a German Shepherd with a flat collar and a leash, next to a person cropped out of the picture. That means absolutely nothing.


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## Madisonmj97 (Mar 10, 2014)

GatorDog said:


> How does that "obviously" how that the dog is a police dog? It's a German Shepherd with a flat collar and a leash, next to a person cropped out of the picture. That means absolutely nothing.


... I saw him in person, the dog has a vest and badge on it. Like how are you trying to tell me he's not when I clearly saw him for my self and talk to the cheif? He has papers and everything. I wouldn't get a puppy from a breeder who lies and good breeders aren't stupid enough to lie. There's no point.


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## Madisonmj97 (Mar 10, 2014)

GatorDog said:


> How does that "obviously" how that the dog is a police dog? It's a German Shepherd with a flat collar and a leash, next to a person cropped out of the picture. That means absolutely nothing.


Also FYI the collar had a yellow k9 badge on the back


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Madisonmj97 said:


> It does with this one though obviously cause here's the dad.
> View attachment 190122


I'm not sure how this proves that he's a police dog? 

Cause nothing is police issued, here...


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Nevermind :headbang:


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

Should've asked for a demo from the police dog.


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## Madisonmj97 (Mar 10, 2014)

DJEtzel said:


> I'm not sure how this proves that he's a police dog?
> 
> Cause nothing is police issued, here...


First off idk why you're so worried about it? A police dog doesn't mean anything extra special... Did you go to the breeder with me? No. Did you see the sire? No. There for you have no reason to put your two cents in. This thread wasn't about police dog, it was about socialization. I'm not meaning to come off rude but I don't like that people are trying to prove themselves right when clearly I know what I'm talking about.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Madisonmj97 said:


> ... I saw him in person, the dog has a vest and badge on it. Like how are you trying to tell me he's not when I clearly saw him for my self and talk to the cheif? He has papers and everything. I wouldn't get a puppy from a breeder who lies and good breeders aren't stupid enough to lie. There's no point.


People lie on forums and about this all the time. If you can't prove it and it sounds unlikely, why would we believe you? 

eta; It is NOT clear that you know what you're talking about, based on your experience with dogs and the questions you're asking and responses you're giving. That, paired with your attitude, is why we are skeptical.


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## Madisonmj97 (Mar 10, 2014)

boomer11 said:


> Should've asked for a demo from the police dog.


I did, that's why I believe he is one. Not only did the officer show me his badges and pictures and papers. So I have no reason not to.


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## Madisonmj97 (Mar 10, 2014)

DJEtzel said:


> People lie on forums and about this all the time. If you can't prove it and it sounds unlikely, why would we believe you?


The real question is here... Why would I care if you do or not?


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## Madisonmj97 (Mar 10, 2014)

GatorDog said:


> If you clearly knew what you were talking about then you wouldn't have started this thread in the first place.
> 
> And if it wasn't anything special, then why did you bring up the fact that he's a "police dog" in the first place?


Cause they are aggressive?.. Why else would I? That has everything to do with socialization..


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## Madisonmj97 (Mar 10, 2014)

Maybe you should read the whole thread before making assumption after assumption


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Madisonmj97 said:


> The real question is here... Why would I care if you do or not?


 You made the point to bring it up and try to prove it. 



Madisonmj97 said:


> Cause they are aggressive?.. Why else would I? That has everything to do with socialization..


No they aren't. That shows your entire lack of knowledge right there. They are trained to bite people on command or search for drugs, weapons, etc. 

They are very stable dogs that live in homes around kids, other dogs, cats, etc. and are bombproof in public.


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## Madisonmj97 (Mar 10, 2014)

DJEtzel said:


> You made the point to bring it up and try to prove it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's exactly why I asked. I've never owned a puppy with a K9 sire. So indeed, I was iffy about it. Sorry idk german shepherd 101 like you


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## Madisonmj97 (Mar 10, 2014)

Also I was told ON HERE it can be genetic.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Madisonmj97 said:


> Also I was told ON HERE it can be genetic.


 Aggression can be a genetic issue, sure. 

but neither of the parents are aggressive, from what you say. The father being a police dog is a good sign of his strong nerves and LACK of uncontrolled aggression.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

Police dogs aren't randomly aggressive. You know so little yet get so defensive. It saddens me that you have yet to meet a stable german Shepherd. 

Anyways this thread is about to go down hill. Getting my popcorn ready....


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## Madisonmj97 (Mar 10, 2014)

DJEtzel said:


> Aggression can be a genetic issue, sure.
> 
> but neither of the parents are aggressive, from what you say. The father being a police dog is a good sign of his strong nerves and LACK of uncontrolled aggression.


 I'm not complaining with it, ha I guess every puppies personality is unique. I'll just train more point blank.


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## maxdog630 (Feb 22, 2014)

Madisonmj97 said:


> Cause they are aggressive?.. Why else would I? That has everything to do with socialization..


 I had aggression issues with my female, it was mostly due to my lack of knowledge...

And I have had several dogs in the past..


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## Madisonmj97 (Mar 10, 2014)

boomer11 said:


> Police dogs aren't randomly aggressive. You know so little yet get so defensive. It saddens me that you have yet to meet a stable german Shepherd.
> 
> Anyways this thread is about to go down hill. Getting my popcorn ready....


My grandfather has one... It's not like it's only in museums lol, and this shows me that you get little action on this website and when a little disagreement shows, boyyyy youll jump on that.


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## Madisonmj97 (Mar 10, 2014)

maxdog630 said:


> I had aggression issues with my female, it was mostly due to my lack of knowledge...
> 
> And I have had several dogs in the past..


I had a GSD that my friend socialized and she still ended up aggressive that's why I was a little concerned


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## Madisonmj97 (Mar 10, 2014)

And I did say the dad was less approachable and less affectionate then the mom.


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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

Back to your original question, I'm by no means an expert but I'll answer based on how I've handled raising my new puppy. 

Life changed the week I brought him home which put a kink in my time to socialize but I took him everywhere possible with me so he could experience a number of different environments. From Day 1, he's treated every situation with gusto as if he owns the world. This confidence wasn't taught, it's genetic and came from me doing my homework when picking a breeder to go with. He's curious and checks out everything. 

My older dog, I did everything right except picking the a proper breeder and taking her home at 6 weeks. She's afraid of her own shadow and if wasn't properly managed would probably be a fear biter as she's a very defensive dog (most would take this as being strong and protective, I know it's all a show)

I guess what I'm trying to say is generally it boils down to the genetic makeup of your dog, if you end up with a weak nerved dog don't try to make it something it's not by saying it's agressive or protecting you, work with and manage what you have. It'll be less stressful for everyone involved and the next time around you'll be better informed what you're looking for.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

OP, where are you located? Someone may know a good trainer in your area.


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## Madisonmj97 (Mar 10, 2014)

gaia_bear said:


> Back to your original question, I'm by no means an expert but I'll answer based on how I've handled raising my new puppy.
> 
> Life changed the week I brought him home which put a kink in my time to socialize but I took him everywhere possible with me so he could experience a number of different environments. From Day 1, he's treated every situation with gusto as if he owns the world. This confidence wasn't taught, it's genetic and came from me doing my homework when picking a breeder to go with. He's curious and checks out everything.
> 
> ...


Thank ya, I will be sure to take that into consideration. I also appreciate you actually talking about sosializing my pup and not about him his dad being diff from what I had said. But yes, I'll take him places more and help him be more confident!


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## Madisonmj97 (Mar 10, 2014)

Twyla said:


> OP, where are you located? Someone may know a good trainer in your area.


Georgia!


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Cool. There are several of us in Georgia. If you give a town/city, someone may be able to point you to a good trainer.


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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

Madisonmj97 said:


> Thank ya, I will be sure to take that into consideration. I also appreciate you actually talking about sosializing my pup and not about him his dad being diff from what I had said. But yes, I'll take him places more and help him be more confident!


I don't know anything about police dogs which is why I didn't comment, I was under the impression that while they are in active service they aren't bred but I'm not sure where I heard that. 

Just remember that taking him more places still may not help his confidence, it's worth a try but don't over stimulate thinking you're doing good as it may cause more harm than anything.


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## Madisonmj97 (Mar 10, 2014)

gaia_bear said:


> I don't know anything about police dogs which is why I didn't comment, I was under the impression that while they are in active service they aren't bred but I'm not sure where I heard that.
> 
> Just remember that taking him more places still may not help his confidence, it's worth a try but don't over stimulate thinking you're doing good as it may cause more harm than anything.


Some can be intact yes. But okay, thanks for the tip


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## Madisonmj97 (Mar 10, 2014)

Twyla said:


> Cool. There are several of us in Georgia. If you give a town/city, someone may be able to point you to a good trainer.


St Simons Island, GA


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

" I was just asking what would happen if my pup wasn't socialized proper"

the answer is that it depends on the basic good or not temperament that you are dealing with .

the responsibility is on you to socialize your dog properly . End of story.

this thing about the somewhat anti social police dog sire gets in the way you taking responsibility -- the dog will be what the dog can be determined by his genetic gift given to him by his sire and his dam.

It is the COMBINATION .

Even if the dog is a working PD , that doesn't make for great breeding material as many dogs may be owner distress sales -- a dog gone wild that can't be managed anymore by the owners --- not trained or certified under the national police dog association - so real questionable training , standards for performance , accountability to a higher authority. 
Even if all that is okay, that does not make a k9 handler , or k9 owner , a breeder.

To get that odd colour I wonder what the female is like. 

You have the dog . The dog is skittish. You have to manage the dog. 

visit the early socialization thread


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## Madisonmj97 (Mar 10, 2014)

carmspack said:


> " I was just asking what would happen if my pup wasn't socialized proper"
> 
> the answer is that it depends on the basic good or not temperament that you are dealing with .
> 
> ...


The female is what they call a izabella or fawn GSD... I researched on it. It's poor pigmentation I believe from a blue and liver sable GSD. As a puppy she had a black mask then the mask got smaller and she got lighter. Here's a pic


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Who is 'they'? The breeder? You seem to be missing the point everyone is trying to make to you... Responsible breeders do not breed GSDs with the coloring above.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Madisonmj97 said:


> The female is what they call a izabella or fawn GSD... I researched on it. It's poor pigmentation I believe from a blue and liver sable GSD. As a puppy she had a black mask then the mask got smaller and she got lighter. Here's a pic
> View attachment 190210


That's just a washed out GSD. No sable or liver pigment at all. Black nose and black markings around the eyes. Not liver or blue. And if she had a black mask as a puppy then she's obviously not blue or liver.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the color Isabella is from Queen Isabella in honour of her dingy underwear . Yes .
have you got a pedigree? just curious .

the color is not desirable --- breeding game plan probably not in place (at all) 
(very faded) 

gaia_bear - the no breeding of PD in service is CANADA , where dogs do not belong to the individual handlers but to the Country, Province , Municipality - which also is responsible for standards in training , accountability for performance, certification and yearly recertification of dog and handler as a team. They may be sent for remedial training, and if the failure to perform is ongoing the dog is washed.

While in service , providing a breeding is the quickest one way ticket for the handler to be relieved of duties -- he is retired .


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Oh, selling on craigslist? What a fantastic breeder.


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## gaia_bear (May 24, 2012)

carmspack said:


> the color Isabella is from Queen Isabella in honour of her dingy underwear . Yes .
> have you got a pedigree? just curious .
> 
> the color is not desirable --- breeding game plan probably not in place (at all)
> ...


Thanks Carmen, that's what I thought.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Madison, what everyone is telling you is it really is up to you to make sure your pup is socialized to the best of it's ability. The fact your pup is skittish around people, growling at this age is a very good indicator that you have some work ahead of you. Also at this age, it is probably genetic and while your pup can be trained, he will have to be monitored.

Forget the fact that the sire may have been a K9 - this is the pup you have now. Begin a search for a trainer now. Talk with several, sit in and observe classes, check references, be willing to drive if you have to. Explain the behaviors you are seeing in your pup. This will be a huge learning curve for you, especially since you want to avoid the same aggression as your last GSD had.

Do some serious reading at the link onyx posted: http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...0-rethinking-popular-early-socialization.html There is excellent information about socializing pups, what may be to much for them, ways to approach socializing.


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## Madisonmj97 (Mar 10, 2014)

Y'all are a piece of work I sweaaaar... Like honestly okay, I'll agree to disagree on all the ones trying to act like they know it all. You didn't invent the breed so take a step down seriously. I particularly like the fawns which is why I got the puppy that looked most like the mom so what y'all are saying to me if you're aiming to try and prove me wrong, I like how he is. As long as he is GSD he's perf. So please hop off me, where are the nice GSD owners on here that aren't always trying to prove points and ignoring what my thread was mainly about... SOCIALIZATION. Not breeding and colors and what's a police dog and whats not. Idc, I'm wanting to know about socializing or I would have asked something similar to breeding. Anyways... I will take the advice that the people had do with my main thread and not about the color or whatever opposite.


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## Madisonmj97 (Mar 10, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> Who is 'they'? The breeder? You seem to be missing the point everyone is trying to make to you... Responsible breeders do not breed GSDs with the coloring above.


Okay and tell me exactly what you're trying to say? Are you talking about my puppy or the dam? Enlighten me


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Where or who you got your dog from is irrelevant at this point. You have him, you love him. 

I would be getting him out, lots of treats during new experiences, lots of praise. Don't push him past him limits, keep things positive. Bring lots if treats to give to people to feed him. 

Good luck!!!


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Madisonmj97 said:


> Okay and tell me exactly what you're trying to say? Are you talking about my puppy or the dam? Enlighten me


The point is that from a less-than-reputable breeder, you've got the deck stacked against you in terms of temperament- which you're already starting to see with a fearful, skittish 8 week old. 

You say your friend socialized her dog and he still ended up being aggressive- which is exactly why that "rethinking early socialization" thread is so important. Most people don't actually have any clue what "socialization" means, and with a puppy like yours, flooding him with all kinds of new people, etc is going to be a disaster if you don't approach it right. As others have said, socialization isn't about exposing the puppy to everything, it's about teaching the puppy to work through what he's experiencing.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The mother of your puppy is breedworthy why? Were the hips/elbows done, other health tests in place?
Responsible breeders breed to keep it going in the right direction, not breeding off colors or poor pigment. 
They carefully match pedigree to try to make certain the dogs produced are of sound temperament, workability and healthy.
There is more to breeding than putting a 'rare' color with a 'police dog', then selling the pups on craigslist~all that is not setting the puppies up for success nor doing the breed justice. Has nothing to do with you, Madisonmj97, but everything to do with where this breed is heading with so many doing things irresponsibly.
Please read the thread I linked on the first page of this thread, and do right by the pup you have now....so this one is not failed.


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## Madisonmj97 (Mar 10, 2014)

LoveEcho said:


> The point is that from a less-than-reputable breeder, you've got the deck stacked against you in terms of temperament- which you're already starting to see with a fearful, skittish 8 week old.
> 
> You say your friend socialized her dog and he still ended up being aggressive- which is exactly why that "rethinking early socialization" thread is so important. Most people don't actually have any clue what "socialization" means, and with a puppy like yours, flooding him with all kinds of new people, etc is going to be a disaster if you don't approach it right. As others have said, socialization isn't about exposing the puppy to everything, it's about teaching the puppy to work through what he's experiencing.


So what are you saying I should do? Let him come to them? Or opposite?


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## Madisonmj97 (Mar 10, 2014)

gsdsar said:


> Where or who you got your dog from is irrelevant at this point. You have him, you love him.
> 
> I would be getting him out, lots of treats during new experiences, lots of praise. Don't push him past him limits, keep things positive. Bring lots if treats to give to people to feed him.
> 
> ...


Appreciate it!!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Did you read the link? You don't need people touching your pup at all right now.....socializing is experiences, not strange people petting your puppy. If he solicits it, fine, but don't push him.
Take pup on fun outings, keep the pup under the threshold and all experiences should be positive. 
Read Carmens thread.


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## Madisonmj97 (Mar 10, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> The mother of your puppy is not a recognized color. Responsible breeders breed to keep it going in the right direction, not breeding off colors or poor pigment.
> They carefully match pedigree to try to make certain the dogs produced are of sound temperament, workability and healthy.
> There is more to breeding than putting a 'rare' color with a 'police dog', then selling the pups on craigslist~all that is not setting the puppies up for success nor doing the breed justice. Has nothing to do with you, Madisonmj97, but everything to do with where this breed is heading with so many doing things irresponsibly.
> Please read the thread I linked on the first page of this thread, and do right by the pup you have now....so this one is not failed.


Is this false info?


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## Madisonmj97 (Mar 10, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> Did you read the link? You don't need people touching your pup at all right now.....socializing is experiences, not strange people petting your puppy. If he solicits it, fine, but don't push him.
> Take pup on fun outings, keep the pup under the threshold and all experiences should be positive.
> Read Carmens thread.


I can't seem to find the link no..


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Madisonmj97 said:


> I can't seem to find the link no..


from post #3 in this thread and others have also posted it, but here it is again:


onyx'girl said:


> agree with gsdsar. Here is a good thread:
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...0-rethinking-popular-early-socialization.html


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Madisonmj97 said:


> Is this false info?
> View attachment 190338


the website k9-pines.com? I would not trust one thing posted on that website. Though it is a great example of what I posted above.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

I stopped reading on k9-pines after the first paragraph I read said something about the man of the house being a police officer and she's the mother (of adult children). Went up my feminist arse.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Madisonmj97 said:


> Is this false info?
> View attachment 190338


Yes.


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## mego (Jan 27, 2013)

Madisonmj97 said:


> *Y'all are a piece of work I sweaaaar.*.. Like honestly okay, I'll agree to disagree on all the ones trying to act like they know it all.* You didn't invent the breed so take a step down seriously*. I particularly like the fawns which is why I got the puppy that looked most like the mom so what y'all are saying to me if you're aiming to try and prove me wrong, I like how he is. As long as he is GSD he's perf. So please hop off me, where are the nice GSD owners on here that aren't always trying to prove points and ignoring what *my thread was mainly about... SOCIALIZATION. Not breeding and colors and what's a police dog and whats not. Idc, I'm wanting to know about socializing or I would have asked something similar to breeding. *Anyways... I will take the advice that the people had do with my main thread and not about the color or whatever opposite.


You get offended by a lot in here but the reason this thread took this spin is because socialization is directly impacted by breeding. Sometimes you can socialize a puppy a ton and they won't turn out well, sometimes you can improve them a little bit. The bottom line is it is mostly genetic, so when people come to the forum with a problem it's easier to give you a solution or learn more info if they know the origin of the puppy.

There are many people on the board that know A LOT about gsds and they are not getting in your face. The reality of the breed is that it is kind of in a state of crisis, there is a deviation from solid, stable dogs in favor for things like color (not saying your puppy is one of those) so as an effort to better the breed in the future, people try to teach others what sorts of things to look for to get close to the 'ideal gsd'. If more people discouraged poor breeding with no health tests, the gsd wouldn't be afflicted with so many health and nerve problems. 

I know you are 17 (saw in another thread) and you just want a dog that you are happy with - and people are happy for you, but a lot of these questions really come from the genetic component of the dog and no one here wants to see someone get a nerve-bag dog because it is no fun to live with. I believe everyone here has the best intention for the breed as a whole and wants to help you socialize your puppy, but the main message is: you wouldn't have to worry about this perhaps if you had selected another breeder that breeds more stable dogs. That's all. no one is attacking you.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Thank you Megan...very nice post!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

no where is there any mention of the male dog being a working police service dog ---

the man , Jason is in law enforcement .

I don't think there is much testing for temperament and no priority for good stable temperament. This is an invented market niche. "rare" colours .


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I checked out the K-9 pines website and Facebook page. They are not far from me, in the same county where we do training with police and sheriff departments. Have never met them nor seen any of their dogs but there is a very unusual focus and mix of colors with structures that are not typical of any lines of GSDs I have ever seen.

I have trained around a lot of the police dogs in the area and the GSDs are all typical West German or Czech/DDR types unlike the ones on the K9 Pines page and have nice temperaments as well. Safe dogs to be around. Nothing but respect for what I see in the departmental dogs. There is also the standard complement of Malinois as well. 

I am not sure there ARE restrictions on department dogs being bred in the South, Carmen. Some of the officers own their dogs outright and others were imported through more traditional channels. Most (in this area) are intact males with a few spayed females. So I don't think it is that uncommon for a working dual purpose dog to be bred


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Hi Jocoyn , I know that there are US working police service dogs that are bred , Mike and his Brawnson, years ago Alk Osterburg quell , the team at von der Polizei About US - von der Polizei Shepherds , those are the ones I know .
And that is a good thing !

unfortunately too many times dogs are said to be and simply are not


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Understood. I don't think Jason owns the sire though based on the statement the officer is in Wrightsville GA which is many miles away in a very rural area. Jason is just her husband who happens to be a police officer (I don't think he is a K9 handler).


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

great insight: 
The Naughty Dogge
Socializing a Puppy:

There is nothing more fun than having a puppy around. These are the moments that our television remotes collect dust, and rather our evenings are spent on the floor with our puppies.

Here is a socialization list that I wrote for one of the last puppies that I raised. This is the type of thing that I teach in my puppy class, which is starting this Monday at Eight. Please spread the word to new puppy owners!

1) Ridden in a wheelbarrow. 
2) Many, many bridges of different surfaces, widths, heights, gaps inbetween planks etc. She can now take a slippery plank over my pond at a gallop, and stay on!
3) Climbing Driftwood at the beach for footing, balance, and learning how to use her body
4) Climbing rocks at botanical beach. This rock is thin sheets, so you need to focus on your feet and balance.
5) Sooke Home Hardware 
6) Pet Smart where she shopped - but be careful of overly-friendly strangers who may not heed your instructions 
7) The Gorge Waterway past heavy traffic, an odd pedestrian bridge, people, bikes, dogs, joggers etc
8) Canadian Tire, with a slippery, shiny entrance that she didn't even notice
9) Many types of floor surfaces
10) Only one dog-park trip with most pass-bys done in my arms, and several on the ground with very safe, kind dogs.
11) One walk with a friend and her dog
12) Children, and sat outside playgrounds
13) Hung out with chickens, ducks, and goats.
14) Been tossed into a giant box stuffed full with Teddy Bears, then got covered with Teddies and had to crawl her way out
15) Had towels thrown over top of her head. We have now graduated to entire sheets
16) Been held for cuddling and kisses every night
17) Had her toe-nails worked on twice, with a dremel
18) Been cuddled and kissed while she chews on her bones
19) We walk at a new beach, forest or Mountain every single day. We are yet to repeat a walk.
20) Got stuffed into my jacket so I was 'wearing her', and we went for a bike ride down the galloping goose.
21) Is crated every single day for varying lengths of times
22) Has travelled in two vehicles, in different types of crates or seating arrangements. 
23) Has been to Dintner Nurseries, and made friends with all the staff inside.
24) Because she is so friendly, she has had to learn the art of walking past people without always saying hello. We walk past at least four out of five people without greeting, otherwise her friendliness with be annoying when she is big and strong. 
25) Maybe one of the most important things: She can pee and poop on grass, gravel, asphalt, or cement, on a leash, or free. This makes traveling very simple. 
26) Every day she is presented with small problems that she must solve... how to get her ball that rolled under the couch, how to get the marrow out of her bone, how to stay on a bridge without falling off, how to climb over a downed tree that is higher than she thinks she can climb. I help her but NEVER do it for her. And I only help enough so that she has the confidence to do the rest. If she puts in no effort, I will not help her.
27) She is learning to come running back fast on her name, no matter the distraction. If she is running with my dogs, saying 'hello' to the chickens, seeing a person that she want to run to - 'Come' means chase me. 
28) The Boardwalk in Sooke. It is a walk on a raised bridge - and is a fabulous experience for puppies.
29) She is learning that scratching up at, and holding onto my adult dog's heads while you passionately kiss them is not allowed.
30) Play Dates with trusted dog-friends
31) Walk on all types of stairs.
32) Been in a boat
33) Go swimming with a slow steady introduction to water
34) gone into the petting zoo to see all the animals, and more importantly, all the children
35) Walked on the weird decks at Fisherman's Wharf and explored this fun place. Be careful your puppy does not get eaten by the seals - and no, I am not joking. Don't allow them on the edge, peering into the water, just incase!

Socialization means teaching life skills. I am exposing her to every possible skill that she might need to be a functional adult. With all of her exposure and success comes a level of confidence and bravery; she will get to the point where she believes she is invincible. Even when she does get into trouble, she knows I am right there behind her to help her with her difficulties.

When she has felt overwhelmed or scared, we do the experience in my arms, rather than on the floor. By not asking her to brave it, she watches from up high, and then starts wriggling like a mad woman wanting to get down and do it herself. Rather than asking her to try it, by taking that option away and making her feel safe she has to then demand that she is allowed to try it. Because it is her choice she is then brave as soon as she is put down on the ground.

My last puppy never did have one 'bad' experience. Unfortunately, it will happen, and even when it does, she will know that I am there to protect her and help her. As she goes on her adventures in the world, both good and bad, we are a team, and I have her back.

Monique Anstee
Victoria, BC
Naughty Dogge - Monique Anstee | Dog Training and Dog Obedience Victoria BC


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