# choosing a back yard breeder



## fido (Oct 16, 2011)

what do you guy's and gals think about a back yard breeder if they do it like once a year type of thing, their dogs seem to have good behavior, and health, only thing is their not registered but are pure bred shepherds, they sell for 300 to 400, is there a real difference. they grow up to be just as smart and capable..thats my thought all input welcome, because I'm having trouble finding right breeder. don't think I need to spend more than 1000 for a good dog, looking for pet and possible shutzhund thanks


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

If you don't mind buying a dog of completely unknown lineage, having no idea the health status, hip status, elbow status, or temperament of any of the relatives, don't care whether the grandparents died at 4 or 5 years old of genetic disease, don't care if your dog is actually purebred or if there's a Husky in the woodshed somewhere, and have no problem whatsoever with the fact that you're supporting someone who doesn't bother keeping track of how many of their puppies end up dead in the pound. . . . go right ahead.


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

You got a helmet and pads on? Cause you're gonna need it... Just remember, bob and weave...bob and weave... opcorn:


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

why not post what your looking for and your area, you may get some suggestions


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## sharkey19 (Sep 25, 2011)

I don't know about backyard breeders. I know when I was looking for a dog, I didn't care so much about titles as I did about health and behaviour. Really, if you are not going to go to a breeder that does not get hips/elbows certified, isn't knowledgeable about the breed and doesn't keep track of their dogs, than why not go to a GSD rescue to get one?


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## fido (Oct 16, 2011)

i'm looking for a black and tan shepherd, mostly for family pet, but possibly sport. for about $1000 . possibly around Manitoba Canada, or at least in Canada. German or czech lines would be nice. I really do care about my pups hips and that it's pure bred and all, but I am so frustrated with alot of breeders seem too just want to make money you know like 1500 to 3500 for a pup with no training


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I honestly am geographically dumb when it comes to Canada, but I hope someone can chime in and offer you an alternative to what you first asked about)


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

fido said:


> i'm looking for a black and tan shepherd, mostly for family pet, but possibly sport. for about $1000 . possibly around Manitoba Canada, or at least in Canada. German or czech lines would be nice


Wow, this should be a good one... opcorn:


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

I don't know of any breeders in Canada, but I'm sure some members on the board will. If you REALLY wanna see the difference, go take a good look at your backyard breeder's dogs, and then go visit a breeder's dogs that does health testing, competes, and titles their dogs. It doesn't matter if you want the dog for show, sport, or companion. A good breeder with GOOD dogs will breed to meet all of these qualities, and when you see them in person, THEN you will understand.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Why would you want to support a breeder that won't give you support in return if you have a problem with your pup? Instead of thinking about the cost....do more research while saving more $ for a pup from a responsible breeder. Or go to a rescue/give them your $ instead. The price of a pup is minimal compared to the cost of vetting and training over the dogs lifespan.


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## idahospud49 (Jan 28, 2011)

My first GSD, Amadeus, was from a backyard breeder. I got him when I was 15 1/2 and all I knew was that I wanted a German Shepherd. He was an AMAZING dog, perfect first GSD, but NOT a perfect GSD. He was a lovely sable, had poorish nerves (hated thunderstorms, hot air balloons), was amazing with kids, because he was around a bajillion every day, extremely sweet. I paid $250 for him. He didn't have health problems, except for a nasty bout of panostetitis when he was a puppy. After he died in October I knew I would eventually want another GSD and this time started doing some research. I looked at different breeders and contacted a couple. Believe me I was FAR from well educated, still am, but tried to do a little bit better job than I did the first time. I have learned a ton from being on here in the past few months. Glock is a much better bred dog and it is amazing the difference. I was one who did have a very good experience with a backyard bred dog.


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## BGSD (Mar 24, 2011)

Emoore said:


> If you don't mind buying a dog of completely unknown lineage, having no idea the health status, hip status, elbow status, or temperament of any of the relatives, don't care whether the grandparents died at 4 or 5 years old of genetic disease, don't care if your dog is actually purebred or if there's a Husky in the woodshed somewhere, and *have no problem whatsoever with the fact that you're supporting someone who doesn't bother keeping track of how many of their puppies end up dead in the pound. . . . go right ahead.*


I think this is really the main point here. Try not support "breeders" that don't care about their dogs. It's better to go and adopt from a shelter and save a dog's life.

Having said that.....


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

fido said:


> I am so frustrated with alot of breeders seem too just want to make money you know like 1500 to 3500 for a pup with no training



You have this backwards. Many backyard breeders are in it for the money. Good breeders charge a lot for their dogs because it costs a lot to get the proper health checks for the parents, title the parents, take good care of the puppies, feed good food, etc. I know I spend around $3000 every year just to compete in agility. Imagine breeders competing and titling several dogs in sport, paying for their hip and elbow xrays, etc.

If you don't care about having the proper health checks done, knowing the lineage is stable and strong nerved, etc, why not rescue a dog? There are too many PURE BRED GSDs in rescue, partly due to the many BYBs.


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## fido (Oct 16, 2011)

thanks for the input, you guys are right, ecept anything more than 1500 for a pup is non sence


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Lakl said:


> You got a helmet and pads on? Cause you're gonna need it... Just remember, bob and weave...bob and weave... opcorn:


rope-a-dope a bunch if you get tired of bobbin and weaving. They coming at you non-stop :wild::wild::wild::wild::wild::wild:


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

You are right about that...unless the pup has had some training and is a bit older(with pre-lims and vetting done)
But if you are interested in SL's expect to pay $2,000 and up.


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

I've seen a lot of good showline breeders sell their pups for $1500? I think that's a very realistic price point for a good dog from a reputable breeder.


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## fido (Oct 16, 2011)

not looking for any show lines, I've seen that frog leg back end they look crippled, working dog for me, like the original shepherd


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

fido said:


> not looking for any show lines, I've seen that frog leg back end they look crippled, working dog for me, like the original shepherd


 Hold up! Let me get MORE popcorn! Doc! Grab some vaselline for the eyes!! We're gonna need damage control on the cuts!

I like to play leap frog with my showlines...


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## fido (Oct 16, 2011)

*watch video*



fido said:


> not looking for any show lines, I've seen that frog leg back end they look crippled, working dog for me, like the original shepherd


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

Instead of sarcasm, why not educate someone in the 'different lines' of GSD's available. Most people are under the assumption a GSD is a GSD. But PEOPLE have divided the breed. 

fido, the more research you do, the more you will find there are several quality GSD breeders out there in all lines. You have to weed out the weeds (that is what my drill sergeant used to tell us). Educate yourself by reading through as many posts on this site as possible. Mostly sitting back and taking it all in, then weeding out the weeds. There are several breeders that I know of, that fit into what you are looking for. And please get away from picking color first. That is the least of your worries.


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## blehmannwa (Jan 11, 2011)

I just had a convo with a guy who asked me about Havoc. Guy was looking for shepherds for about $400.00 so he could start breeding. Nice guy, but has no idea about hips and temperament issues. He also made the frog comment about show dogs.

I smiled and nodded and said that shepherds can have health issues so it's better to buy from a good breeder. As the TV judges say,"The cheap comes out expensive."


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I think one should appreciate a line for what it is and not what it's not, if that makes sense? Appreciate a working line for what makes it a working line, not just because it happens to not be the worse most exaggerated example of another line.


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

dawnandjr said:


> Instead of sarcasm, why not educate someone in the 'different lines' of GSD's available. Most people are under the assumption a GSD is a GSD. But PEOPLE have divided the breed.
> 
> fido, the more research you do, the more you will find there are several quality GSD breeders out there in all lines. You have to weed out the weeds (that is what my drill sergeant used to tell us). Educate yourself by reading through as many posts on this site as possible. Mostly sitting back and taking it all in, then weeding out the weeds. There are several breeders that I know of, that fit into what you are looking for. And please get away from picking color first. That is the least of your worries.


He seems to already know about the different lines as he's already referred to preferring a german or czech working line. What he doesn't seem to know is the difference in quality between a backyard bred dog and a dog from a reputable breeder, which I provided suggestions on as well about visiting breeders to see the difference. And I don't believe I was being sarcastic. I'm pretty sure it's called humor?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

One word - Pet adoption: Want a dog or cat? Adopt a pet on Petfinder < search your area (zip code) and breed you want.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

This thread is not going anywhere. I know lots of people like this who already know everything about dogs (and everything else) and see no value in paying someone else for their expertise. That's why I avoid answering questions about how much I spent on my dog. The information is meaningless to people who really don't care or understand.


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

Color doesn't matter? Are you kidding? Everyone has their preferences and I have seen many experienced people on this board that I respect talk about waiting for the next litter because the pups all came out sable and they wanted a black and tan.

My next german shepherd will be from a reputable breeder and I want a sable. Am I a bad person because I will pass on the litter because none are sables? Nope. I know what I want and I will have to wait atleast 3 years until I moved into a house and have room for 2 german shepherds.

If you are meaning that color is the least of their worries since they don't seem to know about hip/elbow dysplasia, temperament, etc..then you are right!

But it definitely isn't bad to know what color you want.


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## fido (Oct 16, 2011)

I think I found a breeder, she has a czech dog and a she seems reasonable, you guys can have a look sottoshepherds.com - Home the male is fly the female carli, the male is black the female is tan & black, mostly black, pups I think will be black or mostly black with some tan


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

why is it a crime for a breeder to make some money on a litter?? Do you understand the money spent to breed a GOOD litter? The work, the time to raise a litter??? That breeders may spend thousands of dollars to produce that litter??? Time off work, travel time, vet bills....and maybe did not get the last litter or two they tried to ger...so they can lose thousands of dollars when they miss - but making a few bucks on a litter means they are greedy??

Lee


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

fido said:


> I think I found a breeder, she has a czech dog and a she seems reasonable, you guys can have a look sottoshepherds.com - Home the male is fly the female carli, the male is black the female is tan & black, mostly black, pups I think will be black or mostly black with some tan


Based strictly off the website, not bad.


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## fido (Oct 16, 2011)

wolfstraum, love your dogs.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

fido said:


> I think I found a breeder, she has a czech dog and a she seems reasonable, you guys can have a look sottoshepherds.com - Home the male is fly the female carli, the male is black the female is tan & black, mostly black, pups I think will be black or mostly black with some tan


The female Carli does not look to have any spectacular breeding... looks like North American show line, yet very few titles in that pedigree. I am not sure what the breeder means to acheive by mixing her with a Czech male.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i see a knock out in the 2nd. 



Lakl said:


> You got a helmet and pads on? Cause you're gonna need it... Just remember, bob and weave...bob and weave... opcorn:


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i want to be in the corner with you and Doc. vaseline won't
work on this one. we need that metal bar (frozen) then
placed in a bucket of ice. how are we doing?? :crazy:



Lakl said:


> Hold up! Let me get MORE popcorn! Doc! Grab some vaselline for the eyes!! We're gonna need damage control on the cuts!
> 
> I like to play leap frog with my showlines...


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

sarcasm is much more fun, much more. 



dawnandjr said:


> >>>>Instead of sarcasm,<<<
> 
> why not educate someone in the 'different lines' of GSD's available. Most people are under the assumption a GSD is a GSD.


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

doggiedad said:


> sarcasm is much more fun, much more.


That's what I was thinking??


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## fido (Oct 16, 2011)

I did meet the dogs carli and flyz, they seemed like very good dogs they have hips x-rays and all that stuff breeders talk about, shes working at titling her dogs, she is only a hobby breeder, some people may want to see more working titles. any thought


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the dogs may be fine as individuals , but that does not mean by any stretch that they will combine well , and that is precisely the area where this person has no or little knowledge . 
On the other hand she seems to be trying to do something good , is at the beginning , and is trying to establish herself .
I was surprised to see the name Schutzengel , which is a name that was registered to a USA breeder / importer of DDR dogs for many years . 
Went through her site , read each link -- pups should be wormed more than once , as in every 10 days to catch worms that have just hatched .
Like they say at the roadside carnival "ya pays yer money and ya takes yer chances".

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

Liesje said:


> I think one should appreciate a line for what it is and not what it's not, if that makes sense? Appreciate a working line for what makes it a working line, not just because it happens to not be the worse most exaggerated example of another line.


Lies, I have always liked your posts, and this right here is so well said that it is well worth repeating.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

The only comment I have on such a cross (and I know Czech lines can integrate well into the other working lines) is.....has the breeder bred these two before?

The worst conglomeration of a dog I had was a combination of two very nice dogs - a Czech male KKL1 for life ( I verified all his info), and a nice German showlines female ........the combo made for a dog with horrible structure and weak temperament, plagued with health problems. Not saying that is the typcial result of such a breeding but it is more of a gamble I think when the background of the breeding stock is so different.


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## Marnie (Oct 11, 2011)

You can understand why dog lovers loath back yard breeders. Most are no better than puppy mills. A few weekends ago, for kicks, I called six GSD adds in our local paper. One was advertising hip guanantee, imported lines, working titles. I began to question him and found that: no, the parents hips were not xrayed but the sires parents were because it said so on the pedigree. They were from imported lines many generations back, same with the working titles. Guarantee? Well, no, not in writing. Stay way away from a guy like this, he's an outright con artist. 

The other ads were almost as bad. One bitch had the run of the farm and was a "guard dog". Sire belonged to a friend. (Since mom was running free on the farm, wonder how they even knew who the father was The other adds were just puppies for $$$$$ for the owner.

Some people want a GSD but can't afford more than $500 for a pet. Rescue if you can. IMHO, the puppy experience is way overrated Rescues are full of adult dogs that won't eat your furniture and won't have to be on a round the clock potty schedule. Some rescues carry baggage from a previous bad home but it isn't any harder to work thru than the first year of puppyhood.

But do understand that a $1500 price tag is no guarantee against congenital health problems. I got a dog from a broker for a lot more than $1500 and his hips turned out to be a disaster. Sometimes you can get a really good price on an adult dog (no training) from a breeder for a variety of reasons. Don't be afraid to call the breeder's vet for references.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

fido said:


> I did meet the dogs carli and flyz, they seemed like very good dogs they have hips x-rays and all that stuff breeders talk about, shes working at titling her dogs, she is only a hobby breeder, some people may want to see more working titles. any thought


Like Carmen said, the dogs may be fine individually, but that does not mean their genes will blend well. This breeder sounds like a good person whose heart is in the right place, but who knows little to nothing about bloodlines or genetics. 

Ask her why she chose to blend the pedigrees of Carli and Fly, what qualities does each bring to the table? And I'm not talking about just the two parents themselves--I'm talking about grandparents, great-grandparents, and so on--what are they known for producing, and has this cross been done before? What were the results?

Would I buy a pup from this breeder? I wouldn't touch one with a ten foot pole. They may turn out just fine, but it's more of a gamble than I would be comfortable taking. Especially when there are breeders out there who know what they are doing, why take chances?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

fido, you say you are interested in Schutzhund? Do you have any nearby Schutzhund clubs? I would contact them and ask for recommendations. I would NEVER recommend a breeder that does not do Schutzhund themselves or has not any hands-on experience in training working dogs to breed and select dogs for work or sport. High drives alone does not mean that they have the nerve base to do the work.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Here are some contacts for Schutzund clubs in Manitoba:
http://www.gsscc.ca/regions-and-clubs/prairies.aspx

And you should easily find a reputable working line breeder who does all the health tests and has hands-on experience with training, titling working/sprot dogs, and has a proven record of finding and matching pups with owners that will meet their expectations and goals. in the 1000-1500 dollar range. You may need to look at driving out of province or geting a pup shipped to you to find what you are looking for.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

if you like the dogs I would delve more into it..I looked at the website, and while I'm not a 'genetics' expert and have no way to 'predict' what might come out of the breeding of these two, she is showing/titling her dogs, they are ofa'd. 

I think she's doing 'right' by her dogs and wouldn't right them off as a backyard breeder by anymeans.

Has she had litters before? I would ask if she could give you the names of anyone who has gotten puppies from her and call them ask, about their dogs..

IF you are planning on doing schutzund, I am in agreement, you want a breeder who is doing that, titling in it, and knows their stuff when it comes to that.

IF your looking for a pet/companion, do some obedience, rally, whatever, I would seriously consider this breeder but again, I am no genetics expert so couldn't tell you what she's 'getting' out of her breedings.


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## IllinoisGSD (Sep 21, 2011)

I wouldn't think she has done this breeding before. The male she is using was born 2/2010...


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Liesje said:


> I think one should appreciate a line for what it is and not what it's not, if that makes sense? Appreciate a working line for what makes it a working line, not just because it happens to not be the worse most exaggerated example of another line.


This is the best statement I have ever seen (or heard in real life, for that matter) during a conversation regarding the different lines.
Sheilah


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## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

My girl came from my neighbor who is one of those accidental ooops litter breeder.
I too was in the market for a GSD and figured I would have to pay about $1500-$2000 for a dog after doing research.

I found a sign on my corner and visited my neighbor and got one of her puppies because she was pushing them out the door at 4.5 weeks.

So far my dog is almost 9 months. We have just begun Shutzhund because on the initial look see it appears she has good prey drive.

That being said, I have not yet xrayed her hips or elbows, I have no papers, she came with no shots. I am battling a lesion of demodemic mange, but her temperament is fantastic and like I said her prey drive is good. She also loves to scent and I am hopeful that she will do will in that aspect because she keeps her nose on the ground the whole time she is on a trail while walking.

My neighbors bitch got pregnant again..right after that litter, had 2 more pups who died . 

I hope they do the responsible thing and spay their female since they have the papers for the male.

I would like to get a 2nd pup after my girl turns 2. I can tell you this, I will buy from a respectable breeder next time around and have already begun a file of prospective kennels.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

If you are not sure about what your goals are and really want a family companion, I think this breeder is okay. If you are serious about soing Schutzhund I would probably do a little more comparison work as Lucia suggests. 

Not all showlines walk like frogs, mine certainly don't. Many showlines have excellent working drive as well. Mine do. I do agree - appreciate each line and each individual dog. 

My first GSD came from a byb, I did npot know any better. She also was my first obedience competition dog. I had to retire her as she was very dysplastic, her parents were never xrayed so who knows if they had bad hips. On the other hand, Lucky was a wonderful comapnion for my family and she is the reason I still have GSD's 22 years later.

Good luck in your seearch.


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## fido (Oct 16, 2011)

thank you all for your helpful input, it gives me alot to think about, in order to try and make my best informed decision. sorry about comment about gsd with frog legs, it was that I saw ! at a dog show and was horrific what the show lines are coming to be more so in the american lines I think, but your right I'v seen others that look better


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Pet Search Results: Adoptable German Shepherd Dog Dog Pets in Winnipeg, MB: Petfinder

Don't rule out finding purebreds puppies in rescue, as in our rescue right now have 4 female purebred puppies. 

Don't rule out adopting either, if I had to choose between a BYB dog and a rescued one, due to finances, I'd choose rescued every time.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

I can't disagree with rescue, but you still may end up with what was a byb's dog.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

chelle said:


> I can't disagree with rescue, but you still may end up with what was a byb's dog.


Yes, but now he is saving a life! Not giving a byb reason to continue on with breeding by _buying_ one of their pups. 

A lot of times, if BYB's can't sell their pups, they will dump them at the shelter, and won't breed again - not worth the effort if they can't make any money off the puppies. Puppy in shelter gets adopted by someone who wants to give an unwanted pup a good life, it's a win-win situation for the puppy and for the adopter, and maybe we have one less BYB breeding their pet dog because it isn't worth their while anymore.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

My rescue GSD bitch is likely from a BYB. She was at a kill facility. I was not supporting BYB in adopting her. But, I got a dog who is super social, happy and easy to live with. She has obedience titles, is working on tracking and therapy dog cert. just s nice dog. Now, she is not all that I would look for in a GSD, but would suit many people well as she is an easy dog. 

I have an older rescued girl. She is pretty good looking WGSL bitch. Another delightful dog who is great in house and super with family. She is a stable, great dog. I have kept her because she is older and no one looking has wanted an older dog. She is just really nice though.

One cost me 50.00 and the other 20.00!


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## Pepper311 (Sep 11, 2011)

Castlemaid said:


> Yes, but now he is saving a life! Not giving a byb reason to continue on with breeding by _buying_ one of their pups.
> 
> A lot of times, if BYB's can't sell their pups, they will dump them at the shelter, and won't breed again - not worth the effort if they can't make any money off the puppies. Puppy in shelter gets adopted by someone who wants to give an unwanted pup a good life, it's a win-win situation for the puppy and for the adopter, and maybe we have one less BYB breeding their pet dog because it isn't worth their while anymore.


Very well said. I could not agree more.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Castlemaid said:


> Yes, but now he is saving a life! Not giving a byb reason to continue on with breeding by _buying_ one of their pups.
> 
> A lot of times, if BYB's can't sell their pups, they will dump them at the shelter, and won't breed again - not worth the effort if they can't make any money off the puppies. Puppy in shelter gets adopted by someone who wants to give an unwanted pup a good life, it's a win-win situation for the puppy and for the adopter, and maybe we have one less BYB breeding their pet dog because it isn't worth their while anymore.


Amen!
I know our orphaned litter is BYB, I heard the story when we got the puppies in. Not to mention mama died when they were 3 days old!

The difference is, now that they are here, they'll be microchipped, spayed, they've started their vaccines, and have been dewormed 2-3 x by the time we find them homes. The BYB would not have done those things for these puppies, they'd have been lucky to get one vaccine! 

And the adopters are supporting our rescue and the care of the animals, rather than paying a breeder to buy more Ol' Roy for the dogs they barely cared for in the first place. Win-win!
To give them money would reinforce their belief that dogs have reproductive organs so they can get rich of them


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I have never understood why people who are on a budget and do not understand why a good dog from a good breeding goes for more just doesn't go a rescue route from the beginning. You can save even more money, you are not supporting someone throwing 2 dogs together just for the heck of it and to make a few $$, and you will likely end up with the same or better dog. If you go with a young adult you can gauge health somewhat, drives for work you might want to do, etc. All for $50-$400 or so.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

GSDElsa said:


> I have never understood why people who are on a budget and do not understand why a good dog from a good breeding goes for more just doesn't go a rescue route from the beginning.


Stereotypes. There's this huge myth that when you get a dog as a puppy, he's basically a blank slate and you can "raise him however you want him." People walk around with this vague idea that German Shepherds are prone to bad hips, but they think it's kind of a roullette wheel. They think that temperament is in the raising and training. I've lost count of how many times people have said, "Is he a rescue? He must have been badly abused," upon meeting sweet, shy, nervous Rocky. Since you have no control over how a rescue dog was raised, you have no control on their temperament and they could be ticking time bombs.


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## df1960 (Nov 6, 2009)

I know everyone says go the rescue route.....but not all rescues are easy to rescue from... 

About 8 years ago we decided we wanted another dog, I knew of a few rescues which I contacted - - - WELL, there was so much you HAVE do to this and you have to do that. 

First think you HAVE to take it to obedience classes... I said I've had other dogs don't feel I need obedience classes (Oh boy that didn't go over well)
Next were will the dog live....my answer with us in the house (good answer)
Next were will the dog be when you go to work....my answer indoor/outdoor I have a dog door the dog can come and go as it please (OH boy was that a bad answer...the dog must be crated during the day if I was as work)
ETC.....ETC....,.

After being on the phone for over an hour getting bashed for wanting to rescue. I told them that if I had to abide by their rules I'd get my dog somewhere else.....

So for us a rescue just didn't work....

Yes I've bought dogs from BYB, my GSD was from a backyard breeder 15years ago..... I don't think I will ever find another dog as obedient, as faithfull, as good, as friendly, as perfect as my beautiful Keisha was.... she did have hip problems - - - But a friend spend at lot on a pup from a Breeder with proper health testing and all the bells & whistles that go along with being a reputable breeder and at the age of 20months found out her pup has hip and elbow dysplexia she still has the dog he's now 6 years old, but has health problems.

The dogs I have now are from BYB. Would I buy another dog from a BYB - yes I would..... I know others say they would not....


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I'm pre-approved with the local rescue so I get the pics and info of every GSD that comes through and there really aren't that many. There are more in shelters but I think we've got some really difficult shelters that do not want to work with rescue. I originally got pre-approved before my first GSD, I had applied to the rescue but they didn't have anything for me and actually referred me to a breeder who had what I was looking for. Since then I've helped out the rescue on occasion (pulled a few dogs from one shelter that does work with the rescue, home visit, etc) but haven't seen a dog come through that really fit my lifestyle in years. I've seen many that caught my eye but always had needs or conditions that could not be met (like no other dogs, no kids, someone home b/c of severe SA, etc).

I think rescue is great and should always be considered but some areas aren't as saturated with adoptable GSDs as others and I don't think it is wrong for people to have certain criteria they adhere to in order for the dog to be a good lifestyle fit. For example my Nikon doesn't really like other male dogs that aren't part of our pack unless they are young so in fairness to him being part of my household that will limit me to puppies and very young dogs.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

The rescues I have....abused, I doubt it. Many many many in rescue not abused! No ticking time bombs in my rescues. They were close to adulthood or adult. Easy to evaluate and know what they were. Sure there can be a problem dog, but puppies can grow into problems if the breeder did not well understand the dogs they were combining. 

I have never gone through a rescue org. We actually have GSDs end up in the several kill shelters. Fees are minimal and it really does save a life!


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

carmspack said:


> pups should be wormed more than once , as in every 10 days to catch worms that have just hatched .


I have NEVER wormed my puppies. I take stool samples in at 5 weeks and 8 weeks and I have NEVER had one that needed to be wormed.


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## KSdogowner (Jun 22, 2011)

GSDElsa said:


> I have never understood why people who are on a budget and do not understand why a good dog from a good breeding goes for more just doesn't go a rescue route from the beginning. You can save even more money, you are not supporting someone throwing 2 dogs together just f


I think a part is that the dog does not come with any sort of history and many rescue dogs come with issues. We have three rescues and all three have issues. While we love them, we are limited as to what we can do with them due to their issues. Because of this, my next dog will come from a reputable breeder. So, I can completely understand that people on a budget seek out BYBs.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

KSdogowner said:


> I think a part is that the dog does not come with any sort of history and many rescue dogs come with issues. We have three rescues and all three have issues. While we love them, we are limited as to what we can do with them due to their issues. Because of this, my next dog will come from a reputable breeder. So, I can completely understand that people on a budget seek out BYBs.


My BYB dog has far more issues than my rescue had. My current foster (and most of my fosters) are/were issue-free. You can get a good dog from anywhere, or a bad dog from anywhere and I have no problem with people purchasing from a responsible breeder. It's this idea that getting a puppy for $500 out of Craigslist or the newspaper is a better way to get a good dog than going through rescue that I have an issue with.


At my last count, there are _far_ more "I can't deal with this puppy" threads than "I can't deal with this rescue" threads. You spend about a year to turn a puppy into something resembling a well-trained, well-behaved dog. It often takes less than that with a rescue.


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## KSdogowner (Jun 22, 2011)

Emoore said:


> You can get a good dog from anywhere, or a bad dog from anywhere
> 
> It's this idea that getting a puppy for $500 out of Craigslist or the newspaper is a better way to get a good dog than going through rescue that I have an issue with.


For the most part those people have not done their research. If they had, many would more than likely not make those choices. Even here on this forum, I have seen more than once where a poster stated they would not have gotten the pup from a BYB had they had the information/knowledge they have now regarding breeding, stability, etc of a dog. So, it's in educating people about these things. The more "I can't deal with this rescue" threads, the more potential in educating and reducing the amount of times people refer to a BYB for their next puppies. The more people get the word out about proper breeding, etc, the better. That is our weapon IMHO.... to educate on here and also while we meet various people by sharing our experiences, etc. 

This is why I so appreciate this forum and the willing people bearing with owner ignorance without making the person feel like they are a criminal for having thought of using a BYB. Granted not everybody will heed the advise but if just one person has changed their mind..it's a win.


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## saraja87 (Jul 12, 2011)

I also have to say rescue! I live right by Westside German Shepherd rescue and many of my family friends foster for them. My family might be fostering as well now that we have our own GSD girl. Last I heard they have over 80 pure bred GSDs (plus mixes as well) and holy cow are they gorgeous! Many already have training and they have both puppies and adults. 

Take a look at these beauties: Our Dogs | Westside German Shepherd Rescue

Maybe there is a rescue out near you that you could look into?


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## CaliBoy (Jun 22, 2010)

My two friends who got their dogs from GSD rescues are very happy; plus they have the contentment of knowing that they took in a GSD in need. However, they were experienced dog owners to begin with, so my only concern about getting a GSD from a rescue is that you know what you are doing as far as handling the German Shepherd (although many rescues are great about matching the right GSD for a less experienced owner). So, I hope that the OP will not rule out that option of looking at a GSD rescue.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

CaliBoy said:


> my only concern about getting a GSD from a rescue is that you know what you are doing as far as handling the German Shepherd (although many rescues are great about matching the right GSD for a less experienced owner)..


Yes, an inexperienced owner really should go through a good rescue with a strong foster family program. I've had many inexperienced families fall in love with the website pictures of a young, handsome, strong-willed, spoiled dog that I'm having to put a lot of time and effort into straightening out. I've had to say, "I'm sorry but this dog is just not a good match for you." They're probably out there somewhere complaining that it's impossible to get the dog you want from rescue, but this is exactly what good rescues do-- make the right match between the person and the dog.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

CaliBoy said:


> However, they were experienced dog owners to begin with, so my only concern about getting a GSD from a rescue is that you know what you are doing as far as handling the German Shepherd .


As opposed to a genetic hot mess puppy who grows up fear aggressive from a BYB? I mean, this entire thread is is it OK to knowingly buy from a BYB because you don't want to spend the $$. One thing to be ignorant about buying from one. It's another to actively and knowingly to seek one out to save money.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

df1960 said:


> I know everyone says go the rescue route.....but not all rescues are easy to rescue from...
> 
> About 8 years ago we decided we wanted another dog, I knew of a few rescues which I contacted - - - WELL, there was so much you HAVE do to this and you have to do that.
> 
> ...


 
So because of that 1 incident at that 1 rescue, you will not go the rescue route? Pretty silly and ignorant of you.

I would much rather give my money to a responsible breeder or a shelter/rescue than someone who is just breeding for the heck of it with no regards to temperament, health or the overall well being of the dogs and breed in general.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

My boy is from a shelter, never had any issues at all. He has his quirks, he was originally turned in as a stray, adopted then brought back. My family didn't have the money to buy from a responsible breeder.Our other dog came from a BYB, she doesn't have issues, but has her quirks such as fear of loud noises(her mother had fear issues.) so obviously the BYB had no regards to temperament. I love both of my dogs very much and wouldn't trade them for the world.

But my next dog will be from a rescue/shelter or responsible breeder.Because I know where my money is going and my money is going for a good cause. If I give my money to a BYB it goes towards nothing. BYBs want nothing but $$$$.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

GSDElsa said:


> As opposed to a genetic hot mess puppy who grows up fear aggressive from a BYB?


Really? "Genetic, hot mess puppy?" A little overstated there, I think! I'm certainly not trying to defend ANY byb, but not every dog that comes from one is what you've stated. That's ridiculous.



Jessiewessie99 said:


> BYBs want nothing but $$$$.


Not always true. My own SON is, in this board's opinion, a "byb." He had an OOPS litter. There was no intention of making money. 


I will never defend a byb. People far too often breed dogs for money, obviously, and I would never defend that when they don't do the health checks and simply don't care what they're breeding for. I find that reprehensible. Others, like my own son, screw up because they're irresponsible. I don't approve of the latter either, but it doesn't make him/them evil - it makes them stupid.

Those of you with purebred dogs - awesome, fantastic. I have two purebreds and a mix. I'm personally pretty sick and tired of hearing about the "hot mess, genetic mess, weak nerved, blah and so on" of a dog that's a mix or of unknown genetic origin. He's not perfect and well, neither are anyone else's dogs. Yours may be *more* perfect, I'll concede that. Just means I have to work a little harder than you do I suppose. And I will.

I see plenty of posts here about plenty of pb's that have major issues as well. A pb isn't the answer to all your woes.

I'll reinterate, I DO NOT CONDONE, RECOMMEND OR APPROVE OF BYB'S THAT BREED FOR MONEY WITHOUT REGARD FOR HEALTH OR TEMPERMENT, but it does NOT automatically mean that every dog, other than pb, is doomed to fail, doomed to be a "hot mess."


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

All BYBs are not equal. Some are very much into the breed and they are intent in making the best choices based on research and experience. They simply are not in it as a big business. Some BYBs are former serious breeders and showers who became disenchanted with the politics of showing and decided to go small-scale. And, yes, there are the BYBs who are just in it for the money. They are not all the same people.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

PaddyD said:


> All BYBs are not equal. Some are very much into the breed and they are intent in making the best choices based on research and experience. They simply are not in it as a big business. Some BYBs are former serious breeders and showers who became disenchanted with the politics of showing and decided to go small-scale. And, yes, there are the BYBs who are just in it for the money. They are not all the same people.


To me those are Hobby breeders, the term BYB doesn't come to me about if someone make or not money from it, but from the knowledge behind. Here in the boards we have several breeders who do not compete or show any more, for different reasons, and in no way they automatically become Back yard breeders because of that.

Someone who has an oops mating is not a BYB either to my standard, is someone who made a mistake. When there is the third oooops litter that year then yes, BYB trying to hide the truth.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I DO NOT CONDONE, RECOMMEND OR APPROVE OF BYB'S THAT BREED FOR MONEY WITHOUT REGARD FOR HEALTH OR TEMPERMENT, but it does NOT automatically mean that every dog, other than pb, is doomed to fail, doomed to be a "hot mess."


I really don't think people were saying that, or if it seemed that way, it was not intended that way.
The problem, that I see all the time, is you have a bunch of people out there with purebred dogs who probably came from "iffy" breeders and they then breed those dogs, who become more "iffy" as things progress - generation after generation.
I don't think there is one breed that is an exception from overbreeding at this point, if not physically, then mentally, or both. 

As for your son, he had an "oops", I doubt he did it deliberately, and thus, isn't what I would term a BYB, and most folks, when we think of BYBs, are thinking people who simply want to breed their dogs, often purebreds but sometimes the so-called "hybrids" like Labra-doodles and the like. Basically, it was more of a deliberate act intended to "make money" on the dogs. That's what I think of, when I think of BYBs, anyway.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

chelle said:


> Really? "Genetic, hot mess puppy?" A little overstated there, I think! I'm certainly not trying to defend ANY byb, but not every dog that comes from one is what you've stated. That's ridiculous.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I don't consider "oops litters" BYBs. To me a BYB is someone who deliberatly breeds dogs with no concern for health and temperament or anything that will the breed or breeds they want to breed.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I agree with Jessiewessie 100% and have been constantly saying" A BYB is a breeder who breeds with no concern for health or temperament", I have stood by this and people hate me for it. The only difference is some people think if you do these things and have a FANCY website or titles then you are exempt.:hammer: You breed dogs not websites, and if the shoe fits, we must admit!!!


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

GSDElsa said:


> One thing to be ignorant about buying from one. It's another to actively and knowingly to seek one out to save money.


Exactly!

My Sinister is from a byb, I had no idea what a byb was at the time, well when he was 8 or 9 months old there was concern for his hips, when I told his breeder that, she told me to bring him back, they'd put him to sleep and give me another dog!   Even if it was only mild HD she said they would still put him down because no one wants a dog with HD. 

They dont do any health testing, they are all pet lines, they only do prelims on 6-10 month old puppies and not all of them have their prelims, she breeds 10 and 11 month olds, she has 8-10 litters a year. 

I love my boy, he is perfect IMO but I would NEVER give my money to a greedy piece of crap byb breeder again.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Fido,

You might want to mention to this breeder that when you breed a solid black to another solid black, ALL PUPPIES from said mating will be solid black. That is "German Shepherd breeding 101". It is apparent that she doesn't know this as on the website it says she is expecting solid black, and possibly sable and black and tan puppies from the Fly and Soda breeding. Not going to happen since they are BOTH black.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I forgot to mention that she sells them for $1000


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

Umm... rescues ARE BYB dogs... the difference is that you're not SUPPORTING the BYB when you rescue. 

Yes, there is the potential that those BYB dogs have gone through the ringer and will have "issues." If you're patient, you can usually find a puppy in rescue and have the same crap shoot chance that you'd take when buying from a BYB, except you haven't supported the BYB.

Heck, with Nova, we were actually approached by a trainer who had pulled him from a shelter and asked if we would be willing to adopt him. You just have to get the word out about what you're looking for, and develop a good reputation. (This trainer worked at a vet clinic, and knew us from attending her puppy class with our other GSD).

Additionally, as others have mentioned, not all dogs in rescues/shelters have issues.



df1960 said:


> I know everyone says go the rescue route.....but not all rescues are easy to rescue from...


True enough but there are plenty of county/city run human societies/shelters that all you have to do is show up and sign a paper and they send you home with a dog, no questions asked. You just have to stalk Petfinder and wait for the dog of your choice to show up.

Additionally, I've found that if you develop a relationship with a rescue, they are more likely to "bend the rules." If you show up and say, "no way no how, not gonna do it," they're going to send you on your way, but if you take time in describing to them exactly what plan you have in place, they are more apt to listen. Example: the rescue I adopted Apollo from required fenced yards, but after speaking with me for awhile via email and phone, and having me outline my plans for exercise, etc. the rescue owner was willing to look past the fact that we didn't have a fence (though we do now), and adopted to me anyway. 

And, really... I don't understand not being willing to attend a training class. Even if you technically know what you're doing, training class can be beneficial, even if it's purely for socialization.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

No, rescues are not necessarily BYB. I have placed too many well bred, well trained GSDs (who came into rescue with all their paperwork and titles in hand, and verifiable) to think otherwise. It isn't the norm, certainly. But it does happen, and a lot more often than people might think. Especially in this economy.
Sheilah


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

sit said:


> No, rescues are not necessarily BYB. I have placed too many well bred, well trained GSDs (who came into rescue with all their paperwork and titles in hand, and verifiable) to think otherwise. It isn't the norm, certainly. But it does happen, and a lot more often than people might think. Especially in this economy.
> Sheilah


Well... I guess it depends on what a person's idea of a reputable breeder is.

One of the first criteria I base my decision on the worth of a breeder is: what happens if the family decides to give up the dog? A good breeder better demand the pup/dog back.

Of course, I can see certain situations where a reputable breeder's dog ends up in rescue (the breeder is deceased, the rescue refuses to give the dog to the breeder, people take off with a dog and the breeder can't find them).


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