# Wanted: Black & Red



## Tango7 (Dec 31, 2013)

I'm looking for a breeder of quality black and dark red GSD, (not black & red sable) with broad heads, 75 + lbs females and 100 + lbs males, NOT sloped!! (also no roach backs), ears that point directly up (not to the sides), family type dog personality's (not shy but also not overly aggressive), not too much scruff around the neck.
I've been able to find some gorgeous dogs that meet all my criteria, except the slope back (and that is definitely one thing I am not giving on). I've found that once you get into the no sloped working lines, they tend to look kind of sloppy, with scruffy necks and floppy ears (and I have been unable to find the deep red as well)! 
If anyone has any breeder recommendations please let me know!


----------



## MrsFergione (Jul 7, 2013)

It will probably be somewhat hard to find dogs that far out of regulation weight wise, and also not good for the dogs health.


----------



## Donovan514 (Dec 26, 2013)

Google big boned GSD breeders.


----------



## Donovan514 (Dec 26, 2013)

Long Coat German Shepherd Breeders of Long Coat German Shepherds - Long Coat German Shepherd puppies for sale


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Are you looking at the dog in motion or just pictures of the dog stacked? If you're looking at a proper stack...the back will be sloped no matter what. If you see the dog stand regularly, or move, the back will tend to flatten out if its properly conforming.

Even my dog, a working line who can use more angulation in his rear end, has a sloping back when he's stacked. He also doesn't look sloppy and has a very strong ear set. Surprisingly I personally find that its more the larger show lines that have weaker ears as the actual ear tends to be bigger.


----------



## BriskaBoo13 (Aug 20, 2013)

Sounds like you are looking for a German working line. They tend to be less sloped and pretty dark pigment. However, they may or may not be the weight you are looking for. Weight really isn't what breeders breed for, height is. So you could end up with that weight. But any working line, which are the non sloped lines, are going to be more drive and if that is not trained properly and given a good outlet can lead to or appear like aggression. And Martemchik is right...even working lines can appear sloped if in a stack position. Not as dramatic as show line, but still sloped.


----------



## BriskaBoo13 (Aug 20, 2013)

I meant to say WEST German working line.:crazy:


----------



## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> But any working line, which are the non sloped lines


Sorry, this is a misnomer, and one that really bothers me.

A correctly angulated dog will have good bend of stifle and not be so stick straight in the rear that the top line doesn't change in stack.

OP, you kinda describe a WL structurally, but it terms of color, Black and Tan saddled dogs are hard to find in those lines. You can find blankets and bi colors, but saddles are difficult to come by


----------



## BriskaBoo13 (Aug 20, 2013)

Xeph said:


> Sorry, this is a misnomer, and one that really bothers me.
> 
> A correctly angulated dog will have good bend of stifle and not be so stick straight in the rear that the top line doesn't change in stack.
> 
> OP, you kinda describe a WL structurally, but it terms of color, Black and Tan saddled dogs are hard to find in those lines. You can find blankets and bi colors, but saddles are difficult to come by


 
Oh gosh, you are so right, I didn't really word that properly, cause shepherds are all sloped but in a stack working are less sloped in appearance. So for the OP I was thinking that would be what he was thinking about. You can stack any line and get a major slope but the top line tends to be straighter on a working line. And yes, not many saddle backs with the working lines but some pretty dark blacks with red highlights (legs, sometimes head, bi-color)


----------



## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Sounds like you are looking for this? I found her in rescue. Which is why she is missing her tail. But she is West German Show Lines.


----------



## Rangers_mom (May 16, 2013)

shepherdmom said:


> Sounds like you are looking for this? I found her in rescue. Which is why she is missing her tail. But she is West German Show Lines.
> 
> So somebody docked her tail? Our did she lose it some other way?


----------



## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Rangers_mom said:


> shepherdmom said:
> 
> 
> > Sounds like you are looking for this? I found her in rescue. Which is why she is missing her tail. But she is West German Show Lines.
> ...


----------



## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Here is a good information site created by Wildwolf and others on this blog.
German Shepherd Guide - Home
Good luck!
Moms


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

working lines are rarely black and tan , never mind black and red .


----------



## Rangers_mom (May 16, 2013)

shepherdmom said:


> Rangers_mom said:
> 
> 
> > It was so infected when she was surrendered they had to amputate to save her life.
> ...


----------



## Rangers_mom (May 16, 2013)

carmspack said:


> working lines are rarely black and tan , never mind black and red .


Hmm, I didn't know that. I have a dog that was bred by the Seeing Eye and I thought you guys told me that he was likely a working line. He is black and reddish. I really have no idea of his pedigree. The Seeing Eye has been breeding them in house for decades. Obviously they do not breed for appearance, purely for suitability to be a guide dog. I don't know much about the different kinds of GSDs and some people here said he was probably working lines.


----------



## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

carmspack said:


> working lines are rarely black and tan , never mind black and red .


Never heard this before. What color are working lines?


----------



## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

When people say black and red, they're usually looking for a saddled animal. WL's are practically never saddled. They're bi color or blanketed


----------



## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I cannot understand the main criteria being so much specific on the appearance. I'd look for good temperment then good health. Then I'd worry about color if I got that far. 
A breeder that is focused on size (larger than standard) and color (black and red or any other specific color) would not attract me. Good temperment, good health, good drives and then overall pleasing to me in appearance. OK then gotta say that one of my really wonderful dogs was pretty awkward looking as a pup. Her coat was a rumpled, largely black, shaggy mess; her ears were all akimbo. I'd take another one in a minute.


----------



## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> I cannot understand the main criteria being so much specific on the appearance.


Temperament is important, but people should be able to state they want x color without getting the temperament spiel all the time. I don't think anybody goes out looking for a nutter of a dog.

And there are plenty of GSD breeders out there that one can choose to forego a litter if it's a color they really don't want. Another litter is bound to have the color they do want with a good match for them.


----------



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

you can find a healthy, sound pup in the color and
gender that you like. i wanted a blk&red dog male pup.
i found a reputable breeder and the rest is history. because
you want a certain color and gender doesn't mean you're
going to forgo health, temperament, confirmation, reputable
breeder and so on. i never understand why people say they
pick for health first. good health comes in all colors and gender. 



middleofnowhere said:


> I cannot understand the main criteria being so much specific on the appearance. I'd look for good temperment then good health. Then I'd worry about color if I got that far.
> 
> 
> 
> A breeder that is focused on size (larger than standard) and color (black and red or any other specific color) would not attract me. Good temperment, good health, good drives and then overall pleasing to me in appearance. OK then gotta say that one of my really wonderful dogs was pretty awkward looking as a pup. Her coat was a rumpled, largely black, shaggy mess; her ears were all akimbo. I'd take another one in a minute.


----------



## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

doggiedad said:


> you can find a healthy, sound pup in the color and
> gender that you like. i wanted a blk&red dog male pup.
> i found a reputable breeder and the rest is history. because
> you want a certain color and gender doesn't mean you're
> ...


I agree. It's pretty easy to find a reputable breeder that can give you everything you want. Including color. 

Personally, I knew the look of what I wanted. So I searched out a breeder that had that look and then delved deeper. 

I get a bit annoyed at the "temperament and health before everything" argument that comes up whenever someone is looking for a specific color. 

Yes, those are very important, but it's entirely possible to get the look, health and temperament that you want. I see no reason a person can't put looks on the important list. You need to love the way your dog looks as well, and with so many good breeders out there, you can have it all. 

All that said, I am the proud owner of the ugliest Labrador on the planet. But she is a good worker, so I overlook her hound like appearance. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

I agree about picking for color, but it has to be 'part' of the whole package. The package needs to include: health testing, titling, proper temperament, proper size to standard, gender you want, etc. They are out there, you just have to look and do your own research.


----------



## Rangers_mom (May 16, 2013)

I'm sorry but I would like to go back to the WL not being black and red. What is the difference between saddle and blanket. I am just curious as to what kind of GSD I have.


----------



## BriskaBoo13 (Aug 20, 2013)

Rangers_mom said:


> I'm sorry but I would like to go back to the WL not being black and red. What is the difference between saddle and blanket. I am just curious as to what kind of GSD I have.


 
Saddle back is just the amount of black on the dogs back (the amount that resembles a saddle on a horse, right in the middle of the back) Blanket back is the black that lays over the whole back of the dog.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

rangers mom - post a pedigree . working line is understood to be the genetics of the bloodlines rather than the dog being able to work.
the black and red/ (tan) associated with the WGsl took hold in the late 60's thanks to Canto Wienerau . go find a wealth of information on an older thread Iceberg Breeders http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breeding-general/163886-iceberg-breeders.html excellent input from several members . 

Canto was a result of a breeding programme set by Walter Martin of Wienerau kennels . Martin was **** bent to remake the GSD into a physical type that was his version and the deep mahogany red was definitely a goal. You see he began in a working mind-set , and then abandoned that to achieve his new standard , which became "the" standard. Two factors . Factor one, Power (SV president) - the Martin stranglehold , Walter and brother Hermann being Wienerau and Arminius kennels - which to this day are the heavy duty line- in - breeding in the background of modern show lines , a group set apart from working by deliberate selection process. Factor two, Money . 

the RED colour came in from Berta , apparently a crazy dog . In the litter , Dixie , maternal grandmother of Canto , was one of the first to exhibit this colour. The rest as they say is history.

The colour sure was flashy -- peacock flashy -- when the rest were more natural doggy colours if that makes any sense to you, comparatively plain - sables , blacks, greys, dogs like this in colour
VA 3 Bernd vom Lierberg V Zita vom Busecker Schloß 

for a time period Canto Wienerau and Quanto Arminius were to be found on almost all pedigrees 
History - Zwinger von der Wienerau


----------



## Rangers_mom (May 16, 2013)

carmspack said:


> rangers mom - post a pedigree . working line is understood to be the genetics of the bloodlines rather than the dog being able to work.[/url]



I cannot get a pedigree. Ranger was bred within the seeing eye program at their facility in Morristown NJ. They keep in depth records of their breeding for temperament and health but have no interest or need in registering them. I posted all of this about a year ago because I was curious whether anyone here knew anything about the type of GSDs they bred. Someone (sorry can't remember the name) on this board had adopt a GSD from them and told me they were working line. 

From what you have described I think that Ranger is a saddle back. His back started out all black but now the black is sort of surrounded by tan/red. I was kind of disappointed when he lost the all black back because I thought it was cuter, but he is cute now too. The Seeing Eye has videos of GSDs from their program on their facebook site. Ranger looks alot like most of them.


----------



## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Xeph said:


> Temperament is important, but people should be able to state they want x color without getting the temperament spiel all the time. I don't think anybody goes out looking for a nutter of a dog.
> 
> And there are plenty of GSD breeders out there that one can choose to forego a litter if it's a color they really don't want. Another litter is bound to have the color they do want with a good match for them.


For me it's not so much a problem for someone to have a color preference, but when it is the first priority there is something wrong. The OP may have done this unintentionally, being the internet I read it as priority startef with coat color followed by oversized then came temperment etc.

Sometimes..actually, many times things are misinterpeted through text.


----------



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

explain what's wrong with picking a color first? you're not
giving anything up because you want a certain color.
you pick a color, gender, find a reputable breeder, pup
is from good stock and good health, titled and tested parents. 
if all of these qualities are included in your picking what difference 
does it make in what order you pick?



Saphire said:


> >>>>> For me it's not so much a problem for someone to have a color preference, but when it is the first priority there is something
> wrong. <<<<<
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Priority for me was Temperment and Health. Color was not important. 

My pup was identified by the breeder as a good SAR prospect which was what I wanted. To pick a different puppy because I preferred a specific coat color would be rediculous IMO.

Most good breeders pick the puppy best suited for the buyer based on Temperment/personality and the buyers "want" list. Coat color being preference may get you a great puppy but maybe not the best fit for personality. You could be bypassing the perfect fit for a look instead.


----------



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

1 >>>> good temperament and health comes in all colors, yes or no?

2 >>>> i suspect a good SAR prospect comes in all colors.

3 >>>> i don't have much faith in the breeder picking a puppy. 
the puppy you get at the time the breeder picks for you isn't the 
same puppy weeks later, months later or a year later. 

when a person pays for pick of the litter how is the breeder
picking a dog best suited for that person?



Saphire said:


> 1 >>>> Priority for me was Temperment and Health. Color was not important.
> 
> 2 >>>> My pup was identified by the breeder as a good SAR prospect which was what I wanted. To pick a different puppy because I preferred a specific coat color would be rediculous IMO.
> 
> 3 >>>> Most good breeders pick the puppy best suited for the buyer based on Temperment/personality and the buyers "want" list. Coat color being preference may get you a great puppy but maybe not the best fit for personality. You could be bypassing the perfect fit for a look instead.


----------



## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

doggiedad said:


> 1 >>>> good temperament and health comes in all colors, yes or no?
> 
> 2 >>>> i suspect a good SAR prospect comes in all colors.
> 
> ...


1. Depends on the breeder.

2. Not necessarily. Again depends on the breeder.

3. If you don't have faith in the breeder, the only one who knows their puppirs best...or should. Then its not a breeder I would go to. A good breeder KNOWS their puppies and knows what they see now and what they will develop into.

4. Pick of the litter depends on what the buyer is picking for so again the breeder is looking for something specific.


----------

