# My thoughts on the 2012 Working Dog Championships



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I was asked by a forum member to share my thoughts on the 2012 Working Dog Championships. Instead of doing it in a PM, I figured I'd just share with everyone. One thing to keep in mind is that I don't participate in Schutzhund. I know the sequences of the routines, but I don't really know the nuances that make a score a 96 over a 94. Also- this is my perspective- nobody has to agree with it. I just thought that perhaps it would be an interesting perspective for some people.

I only was able to see protection and obedience, I missed tracking as I didn't arrive until after noon. During obedience, I decided that speaking to Cliff was MUCH more interesting than watching the dogs. I'll tell you- I certainly enjoyed talking to him!! He really set my mind at ease about wanting a "true" GSD for agility. As some members have told me- the GSD should not be extreme. It should be a thinking dog. It should be a dog that is balanced in drive and weighs decisions. As Cliff has said in the past- the GSD should be a dog that would _not_ chase a ball over a cliff. These kinds of statements concern me when thinking about the fast paced agility world; a world where quickness is valued and needed- and a world I am totally infatuated with. Cliff helped me to understand that the GSD is more concerned about the "team" than the individual. It is a dog that wants to do its work, not just to work- but because that work pleases its owner. I don't want to take Cliff's comments out of context, or misquote him- so I'll just say that one thing I really "heard" him say (which is to say- something that resonated with me) is that it's all about the team. Which is a superb thought for agility- and one that I hold quite dear.

I've said it many times in different threads- the bond that has developed between Pimg and I from doing agility is beyond anything I've ever experienced or imagined. In agility, I have the job of directing the course to my dog in a _timely_ manner while directing myself through the course without tripping over anything. My dog has the job of paying attention to my signals and actually performing (to a set of rules) each obstacle as fast and as satisfactory as possible. We each have a job, but without each other- we have nothing. We are, without question, a team. We work in unison with each other, and we feed off each other. This is the true nature of a GSD. This is what Cliff helped me to understand. I feel much better about getting a "well balanced" GSD now for agility as I no longer think that it might be slow... I think the dog will enjoy- no- _thrive_ off of our teamwork in the very same way that Pimg has thrived off of our teamwork. We have incredible trust in each other. When I stop and think about it, I find it so interesting how much my "puppy mill" dog has taught me about the breed. She really is an incredible dog, and she really does teach me so much!

So that is a long winded way of saying that, yes- my conversation with Cliff was really enlightening. I LOVED hearing stories about his dog  Chris (the bicolor) from the field. Incredibly long (3/4 mile) tracks leading right to the perpetrator's house... Incredible take downs... Total stability- playing with his grandkids... Sounds like a truly amazing dog.

As to the dogs in the show- well, obviously they were all top notch; it was the Nationals after all. But, I have to say that while I was rightfully impressed with them all, only Lee's Furious vom Wolfstrum stuck out to me. That dog had energy. Good energy. The dog had joy and _clearly_ loved what it was doing. The other dogs were just so serious. And yes, I get it- it's a serious sport... but most of those dogs were just "too much" for me. I don't know how else to put it. 

I think the thing that I noticed most was that the dogs would still be what I'd refer to as "on edge" at the end of the protection routine. As the dogs were being walked on lead to the front of the field waiting for the judge's comments- many of them were still totally fixated on the helper as he walked off the field. I mean- looking at the helper is one thing but I felt these dogs could have, with the slightest command from the handler, took off after the helper. Oh, I don't know... again, these dogs are trained in protection. Of course they'd go after the helper... I guess what I mean is that the didn't appear "settled" to me. They still appeared "on" even though the routine was done. I'm not sure if that's a fair thing to say or not, but that's what my novice eyes saw.

Anyway- between getting to met and speak with Cliff, and getting to met Furious and speak with her owner Dan Cox, I really am happy I went. I learned a ton and had a good time watching.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Oh- one thing I definitely forgot to mention was the stick hits! Oh wow! I am really not sure how some of those stick hits didn't break ribs... I knew going in that not every swing hits the dog. In fact- I think I read somewhere that the helper is supposed to make contact only three times (not sure if that's accurate or not). But man- in those three times- those hits actually _resonated_ throughout that football stadium! Those were *hard* hits! I was surprised by that, and I will _definitely_ be watching to see if that's what I see at the Sieger show. (Not a line bash. Just saying that some people like to point out the difference between WL and Highline protection work. I'll be looking with my own eyes to see if there's truth to this.)


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Willy, thanks for posting your feedback. I do not partcipate in Schutzhund either but admire those who do with their dogs. I would love to get the chance to see The Working Dog Championships some day, sounds very interesting and I sight to see.

Out of everything you said what resonates with me is "team" and I appreciate Cliff's comments. I say partnership (samething) and have one with my boy as you do with Pimg.

Congrats to Lee/Wolfstraum & Furious owner, job well done!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Thanks for the report -- Here is Lee's Furious vom Wolfstraum V Furious von Wolfstraum - German Shepherd Dog - what a nice little female , size, beautiful front , good working structure , bright intelligent look to her !!!


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

(Opps- sorry for misspelling the kennel name: Wolfstraum.)


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

wildo said:


> (Opps- sorry for misspelling the kennel name: Wolfstraum.)


LOL I copied & pasted from your post


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## OriginalWacky (Dec 21, 2011)

Thank you for sharing these thoughts here. I've been so involved in rescue and having 'mutts' for so long that the breed world is pretty new to me, but I'm finding it fascinating to learn so much. Even though we don't plan on doing anything that involves bitework with Koshka, I'm interested in learning about SchH, so I'm probably going to get past my busiest part of summer and then see if I can connect with a club that isn't too far away and do some watching and learning. Who knows, maybe down the road I'll be interested enough to get my own SchH dog. Hehe.


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## TimberGSD2 (Nov 8, 2011)

Thanks for the report. I would have loved to be there, my breeder and my pups sire were both competing this weekend!


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

wildo said:


> I will _definitely_ be watching to see if that's what I see at the Sieger show.


They will not be like that at the Sieger.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

You eloquently relayed the concept of being a team with our dogs. That partnership is how gsds take 'dog' to a whole different level in my opinion. The way you describe how you and Pimg run an agility course is how Stosh and I work in herding. Well mostly him more than me. He will sometimes come over to me and look in my eyes as if to say "What were you thinking? Can't you see that I have this?" He's great at making me a team player


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

There was one dog there I really like but I can't remember his name. He "only" got a 90 in protection but wow was he ANGRY. He ran the blind angry, did his H&B angry, bit angry, guarded angry (it was a silent guard and he was way crooked and he guarded really low, almost in a platz position), he even heeled angry lol. And when he was called out of the blind, you could see smoke coming out of his ears. He backed up from the guard position into heel position without ever taking his eyes off the helper. But he didn't do it in that happy flashy way like Tobias Oleynik's or Jenny Seefeld's dogs. His was slow and you could tell he was fuming! I don't know at the moment who he was more pissed at: the helper or the handler! Good dog


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Jason L said:


> and he guarded really low, almost in a platz position)


Did this happen Saturday? I think I might have video of this dog. I do recall a dog that was almost (I thought it was) in a down. I'll check later tonight for video...


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

wildo said:


> Did this happen Saturday? I think I might have video of this dog. I do recall a dog that was almost (I thought it was) in a down. I'll check later tonight for video...


Yup, Saturday afternoon. If you can find it, it would be great! He was the only dog I saw that day that back pedaled into the heel position on the call out and he almost backed straight into the handler because he was staring so hard at the helper. Like I said: sticky out, silent guard, crooked (sleeve side), almost in a platz.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

There were only three dogs that got a 90 in protection:

61 Steve Gregalunas Yargo ot Vitosha IPO3 84 92 *90* 266 
40 Maria Karas Iwo von der Olgameister IPO3 25 90 *90* 205 
53 Chris Thompson Tyras vom Schindergraben IPO3 15  83 *90* 188

Was it a Mal? I think I have video of contestant #61 (the number 61 rings a bell) and Vitosha is a Mal kennel, isn't it? [EDIT]- haha, of course it is. I thought I recognized that kennel name- that's Ivan Balabanov's kennel.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Oh- your lucky day! Not only do I have the videos here at work, I also have video of this dog. It's an all black GSD (though admittedly, I was unsure if it might be an all black Mal). I'll upload to Youtube now, but my notes on who this is are at home.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

As best as I can tell from the video, that looks like "53" to me.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Here you go Jason. Like I said, I'll have to check my notes to confirm who this is, but that sure looks like a "53" to me...


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## Clyde (Feb 13, 2011)

That dog does not look like what Jason was describing.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Hmmm... It's the only one I saw that was in a down while guarding. I did notice that this was not the dog that backed up into the handler at the Bark and Hold. I saw a dog do that- but I didn't get video of it. Perhaps Jason was combining that dog's backup from the bark and hold with this dog's guarding in a down... Anyhow- no, I don't have video of the dog that backup up out of the bark and hold.


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## Clyde (Feb 13, 2011)

To bad I was interested to see if the intensity of the dog would be as obvious on a video.


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

Clyde said:


> That dog does not look like what Jason was describing.


You are right, that is not the dog. I haven't talked to him, but I am pretty sure he liked the dog I liked. I believe he was a black-and-tan...and he crawled during the transport, stalking the helper. NO down in guarding, neither of us likes that...but I think he kept ducking down to really eyeball the helper...


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Sorry guys, I guess I don't have video of that. I got there about noon- they were starting a round of protection. I took video of all the dogs in that round. Then they did obedience and then a second round of protection. I didn't take any video of that second round. I do recall a dog that made me think to myself, "that dog stalks like a border collie!"


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Thanks! Furi was with me growing up and went to Dan at 2+ with minimal training....When you talk about the dog and handler as a "team" - that IS the key....Furi loves Dan so much his wife jokes about it....Furi will curl up on the couch with Dan and sleep...no deprivation training there!!! This is what a good working line dog should be - a family member who can work when asked and be good wiht the kids....one who enjoys the training and work! Furi has only been trialed at 2 club trials....and handled the crowd and stresses of a National event absolutely easily!

The thing about Furi is that she is from a very very very strong female line, one which produces very good females as well as males! Dan's clubmate Terri has a Furi x Chuck daughter, Ava, and I still have Hexe (partnered with Kristi, who has done all her training!) for breeding .... another maternal sister - Elsa- has a son competing at the AWDF I think.....

Again, thanks for the compliments on Furious, she is pretty special!!!

Lee


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Speaking of- as I was trying to find video of that dog Jason and Falon are talking about, I stumbled on this:








wolfstraum said:


> This is what a good working line dog should be - a family member who can work when asked and be good wiht the kids....one who enjoys the training and work!


I'll also say- after their obedience run, I made it a point to track down Dan and talk to him about her. She jumped up on me and if not for the lead getting tight, she would have given me kisses on the face. She was all about her ball, carrying it proudly. She was a happy dog...


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Based on the three listed, I am going to say it's Tyras. I know that's not very helpful lol. But believe me it was about as angry of a dog as I've ever seen on a trial field! And like Falon said, it STALKED the helper in the back transport.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Jason L said:


> Based on the three listed, I am going to say it's Tyras. I know that's not very helpful lol. But believe me it was about as angry of a dog as I've ever seen on a trial field! And like Falon said, it STALKED the helper in the back transport.


Was it a male or female handler? That can help figure it out, too.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Willy, just an FYI. The dogs receive two stick hits on the reattack/drive after the escape and then two more on the reattack/drive after the long bite. There are specific rules about where it can be applied and the padded stick is more noise than anything else. Nothing like the old reed sticks.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

lhczth said:


> Willy, just an FYI. The dogs receive two stick hits on the reattack/drive after the escape and then two more on the reattack/drive after the long bite. There are specific rules about where it can be applied and the padded stick is more noise than anything else. Nothing like the old reed sticks.


Thanks for this info! I didn't know the actual number, and I definitely didn't know it was a padded stick. That thing sure makes a lot of noise!


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

The handler was a man. Maybe I'll recognize them when the official photos are ready.\


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

Tyras (Freitag) is a dark sable dog and his handler is a male.. if that helps.

He is a very nice dog - won the Southeastern Regionals this year, but I've never seen him do any of the behaviors you describe.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

I'm curious as to why you would talk as though it's a bad thing that the dog doesn't turn "off" when still on the field. Personally, I wouldn't want to see a dog to turn off just because the trial is over. The dog shouldn't treat it as a "trial" or a game and it's "game over" at the end. In my opinion, the dog should be serious and treat it as a real threat, and if that person had to be watched, guarded, bitten, only minutes before, they should still be watched. Leashed or not, the dog won't go after the helper when walking off the field just like they didn't go over the helper ON the field until they were directed to do so.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I don't participate in the sport- so that's why I said initially that this is just my opinion. Perhaps it's different in protection sports, but I don't believe dogs are dumb. I don't think for a second that they really think that bad guy is a real threat. It _is_ still a sport. Just like when a dog steps into an agility ring, or flyball ring, or obedience ring, or whatever- that dog has done it a hundred times before- and they absolutely know what is about to happen. I have a very hard time believing that they really perceive it as actually threatening. Then again- I don't do the sport, so maybe they do. Must suck for the dog to think that every time he steps onto the field, his owner is purposefully putting him in an ultra threatening situation.

You don't see dogs going around in focused heeling at the end of obedience...
You don't see dogs box jumping everything in sight at the end of a flyball run...
You don't see dogs jumping everything in sight after an agility run...

They're not dumb creatures- they know it's a game. I'd expect them to settle (which is to say- to not be "on") when the game is over. That's just my opinion. In a real situation; one not happening on a field that is set up the exact same every single time; with a real bad guy; with real punches, kicks, pokes, guns, etc- then sure- I absolutely expect the dog to stay switched on. _That_ is a real threat.

[EDIT]- I'll elaborate to say that I think the dog sees it as a serious sport, one where it might get really intense for a few seconds, but still a sport no less. Just like if I go mountain biking, I expect there will be a few ultra tight turns at the bottom of a big hill that I might fly off into a river if I don't make. It's going to get my blood pumping, palms sweaty, really nervous to make that turn. But I know it going in, and I expect it. And after I make that turn- I feel excited and relieved. I'm certainly not continuing to worry about it. In the same way, I'd think the dog knows what is in store in protection. He has _countless_ hours of training protection. He knows it will be intense. But he should also understand it's a game. Schutzhund isn't real life. It is a series of shaped responses- we call it a sport.


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

wildo said:


> I don't think for a second that they really think that bad guy is a real threat. I have a very hard time believing that they really perceive it as actually threatening.


I have seen dogs trained to believe that yes, the helper IS a threat. Always. 



> You don't see dogs going around in focused heeling at the end of obedience...
> You don't see dogs box jumping everything in sight at the end of a flyball run...
> You don't see dogs jumping everything in sight after an agility run...


LOL actually I do!!! In fact, when I taught Kastle to heel between my legs, I taught him outside. I tried to take him hiking in the midst of this and he insisted on heeling between my legs for over 1/2 mile before I could refocus him on the hike. He was somewhere around 4 months old. I had the same thing happen when I started teaching him flyball...I am going to start him in agility next month, I anticipate the same behavior.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

wildo said:


> *I don't participate in the sport- so that's why I said initially that this is just my opinion. *
> 
> You don't see dogs going around in focused heeling at the end of obedience...
> You don't see dogs box jumping everything in sight at the end of a flyball run...



Eh, well....you've never trained with my dogs!!! The main reason I use a long tug-toy and harness with Pan for flyball is so that I have a way to stop and CATCH him at the end of his runs or he will turn around and go again, as he has several times if I'm not fast enough. He's a flyball machine, he lives for it and that is always what he wants to do unless you show him/tell him we're doing otherwise. When I take him down in the basement to train he starts doing his pushboard drills. My dogs have turned off furniture, the contact end of a-frames, walls...you name it they will turn off of it! One Sunday I took them to the facility where we train flyball but we were there for obedience. I let Nikon in the door for his turn and he assume it was flyball time. There is always agility equipment setup there so he ran over to one of the sequences and did three jumps, did a box turn off the contact part of the a-frame, came back over the jumps and looked at me like "see?". And yes often we are just out enjoying the weather and I have to push him away or use his release word over and over because he is offering heeling when we're not working on obedience.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Even so- I still think it's a shaped behavior and it doesn't _have_ to be that way.


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## Clyde (Feb 13, 2011)

It is a sport to us but it depends on the dog and/or the training whether it is a "sport" to the dog.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Anyway, I actually do agree with you Willy, IMO too many dogs are too keyed up (for the wrong reasons) at the end of a protection routine and I don't really like it either. I suspect this is why they've change the rule regarding control at the end. I trialed in Nov but our judge at that time had us abide by the Jan 2012 rule. We were told to heel away from him down the field to show control of the dog, then stop/sit and attach the leash. I've got a dog that turns on/off rather easily in protection (as long as a helper is not in his personal space) and does not have control/obedience issues so this is a no-brainer for me, but I'm also not one that likes or strives for the "over the top" drives either.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

wildo said:


> Even so- I still think it's a shaped behavior and it doesn't _have_ to be that way.


Correct, so you've answered your own question I think. What you were watching were mostly people who take this sport to the extreme so you were seeing more extreme behavior throughout, including the conclusion of the routine. Not everyone trains/shapes that way or finds that behavior desirable. IMO a dog can turn drive on/off and still be willing to re-engage the fight even after the end of the routine but doesn't need to be whining with his eyes bugging out and get dragged off the field. You should come watch and SDA trial..... *every* protection routine begins AND ends with a friendly greeting where the decoy gets in the handler and dog's personal space, shakes hands with his bitesuit inches from the dog's face if not touching it.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

The vast majority of SchH dogs are not all that serious in a trial. That doesn't mean that the dog isn't capable of being serious, many very well are. But most, particularly at that level of competition, have seen this same routine so many times that that edge of seriousness is often gone just because of over familiarity.

Those few who are still serious, and view the helper as a threat, are indeed going to keep an eye out for him. The majority who view it more from a game standpoint are also going to keep an eye out, because they're having so much fun that they don't want it to stop, they want it to continue. Though it is true that the more serious the dog is working, the quicker he will shut off when it is over due to the different drives involved.

One has to remember that these dogs are really riled up into a very high state of drive and excitement. And just from a purely physiological standpoint it takes a while after the action is over for brain chemistry to return to normal. When people get really excited about something, we don't just turn right off again. We're still wound up for a bit afterwards, and it's no different in dogs. They can be shut down by the handler with obedience, but they are more in a state of capping than truly off, for at least a few minutes.



wildo said:


> You don't see dogs going around in focused heeling at the end of obedience...
> You don't see dogs box jumping everything in sight at the end of a flyball run...
> You don't see dogs jumping everything in sight after an agility run...


The obedience analogy is a very poor one, as the excitement and drive of an obedience trial is absolutely nothing like that of a SchH trial. The flyball and agility analogies are a bit better. And while you might not see dogs at those events doing boxes and jumping, what you do see is a lot of tugging, grabbing the leash, barking, spinning in circles, jumping around... or often other displacement behaviors that the handler has taught the dog to focus that energy into. They don't come right out of the ring, shut right off and go take a nap. A few minutes later once settled down, or put back in their crates, sure. But not right away, and not while the energy of the environment is still high. Again, simple physiology and it taking a while for a hyper aroused nervous system to return to a state of equilibrium.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

wildo said:


> Even so- I still think it's a shaped behavior and it doesn't _have_ to be that way.


I agree a bit with what you are saying.... but think of the adrenalin rush. Kind of hard to just go from 100 to ZERO.

(Just saw that Chris posted. She alwasy writes things much more clearly and thoughtfully than I  )


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

gagsd said:


> I agree a bit with what you are saying.... but think of the adrenalin rush. Kind of hard to just go from 100 to ZERO.
> 
> (Just saw that Chris posted. She alwasy writes things much more clearly and thoughtfully than I  )


LOL.. no I just take a lot more words to make my point. Your first two sentances pretty much summed it up perfectly!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Also, Willy, and easy explanation is that a LOT of people train the transports using obedience bites. Instead of marking and rewarding with food or toy, when the dog is under control and correct, he gets sent for a bite. The dogs are using to getting a bite after the transport to the judge is complete. Many times the only time they *don't* get one is in trial, so yeah they're a little keyed up because like you say, this is how they've been trained/shaped. Sort of like how in agility many dogs will check the ground after a contact obstacle because in training there's always a marker lid there. In flyball my dogs will lift their rear's onto the box higher than they have to because in training there's always an additional obstacle in front of the box.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

^^ Very true, Lies about how the transports are often taught. Though with the new heel away rule that technique will probably be going the way of the Dodo for most people.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Thanks guys- I can definitely accept the physiology explanation; that isn't something I considered. I also agree with Lies that this particular show was certainly the extreme with extreme behavior portrayed.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

FG167 said:


> You are right, that is not the dog. I haven't talked to him, but I am pretty sure he liked the dog I liked. I believe he was a black-and-tan...and he crawled during the transport, stalking the helper. NO down in guarding, neither of us likes that...but I think he kept ducking down to really eyeball the helper...


For what it's worth, I found the video of the dog! From the classified section of Pedigree Database of all places. The dog is on the market now.

Rigley Protection 2012 UScA WDC, Columbus, Ohio - YouTube


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