# Loss of Drive on the Field



## K9raqs (Sep 12, 2013)

Hi everyone,
I have a 10 mo. old German Shepherd pup from workinglines. He’s super drivey at home withfood and the ball, but anytime we’re on the training field or even out at a localquiet park, he shuts down - he loses any and all interest in me, food, treats,balls, tugs, etc. Getting him to do eventhe most basic commands like “sit” or “watch me” is like a chore, no matter howpeppy/exciting I am or what yummy treats I use. The environment consumes 100% of his attention(even if it’s the same park/field we’ve been to 100 times before). He’s been well socialized from day 1 by hisbreeder and myself of course. So Ithought it might have just been a phase, but I haven’t seen anyimprovement. I have tons of saved Youtubeclips and DVDs on tugging, engagement training, etc. I even decided to take a break from SchHbecause we’re not getting anywhere with it. I’ve seen other young puppies on the field that are *solely* focused on their owner, so I can’t even blame it on his age.

So needless to say I am getting slightly discouraged at thispoint. I ended up a crazy, insane dog inthe house that is calm as anything on the training field. He’s ass-backwards – LOL! Anyone else go through this with their dogsor have any suggestions?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I'd just shut him down at home instead. No toys, playing, training. I'd crate him a little more for a couple of weeks or so, then take him to the park crated in the car and give him a chance to play with you. If he still doesn't, put him back in the crate, for a few minutes then give him another chance. Don't demand any firm obedience or anything, just a good effort playing with you.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Is he distracted by the environment so doesn't want to play/work or overwhelmed by the environment so is unable to play/work?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"The environment consumes 100% of his attention(even if it’s the same park/field we’ve been to 100 times before):="

what is he like in different environments (non-home) when you are just there and not in a training mode?

is he visually distracted or is he sound sensitive , does he look for confrontation that he has to avoid , which may include human or dog social encounters that pose no threat or aggression?

what are his lines (pedigree)


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## K9raqs (Sep 12, 2013)

Thanks for the responses so far.

So, he no longer has access to toys/balls around the house, and hasn’t for quite some time, but I’d really prefer not to crate him any more than I already do. 

And I believe he is just _distracted_by the environment. His nose generally goes straight to the ground the whole time we’re out & about. His hackles may go up a bit when we 1st get to a place if it is crowded, but he settles after the first few minutes. And if/when we do pass people walking other dogs and kids screaming on the playground – he’s un-phased it (no hackles,growling or barking), still just nose to the ground. 

I’m frustrated because it’s I know it’s me vs. the environment, and I don’t exist outside of the house and backyard. When I call him or run away from him in agame, more than ½ the time I have to bribe him. He has some days when he will be more focused, but most of the time it’s almost more work than its worth. I enjoy traveling and hiking with my dogs, so I certainly don’t expect him to be 100% focused on me the entire time, but if I say his name or tell him to sit, I’d like a better response from him, if that makes sense.


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## K9raqs (Sep 12, 2013)

I’m wondering if/when we go for walks, if I should:
· let him sniff awhile, get it out of his system,then try to engage; OR 
· try engagement 1st then continue onwith our walk.


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

K9raqs said:


> I’m wondering if/when we go for walks, if I should:
> · let him sniff awhile, get it out of his system,then try to engage; OR
> · try engagement 1st then continue onwith our walk.


Engagement 1st IMO. I have a 9 month old that gets overstimulated by her environment i.e. Others playing with any type of ball or bite work. I just have to keep working with her in those environments and slowly she is becoming more focused on me and not so crazy nuts. High drive pup. Not sure if that's the same problem you have? Steve made a good suggestion about focusing on you with playing tug or whatever. I'm doing a lot of that and she's becoming more focused on me.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Sniffing the ground can be a form of avoidance where he is telling you he is not comfortable with the environment. The hackles are also an indication of his not being comfortable. I would try to engage him on the walks like you mentioned above. Do a little, then free him up to sniff, do a little, then free him up. See if you can extend the duration of his engagement. 

You might avoid the busy park for awhile until you can get the engagement just on your walks.


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## K9raqs (Sep 12, 2013)

lhczth said:


> You might avoid the busy park for awhile until you can get the engagement just on your walks.



Yes! Good call! I'll take a few steps back.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I have a dog that is much the same. He would rather track/hunt than engage with me. Especially in new places with different scents. It is not avoidance at all, but his need to scent. I track him before we do obedience and it is still over the top. Food drive is high, so I can engage him with food, but then he'll try to find what may have been dropped. I don't want to bang on him for it, and get frustrated which will not help at all. 
Tug, ball, fetch is not valuable on the training field, I can tug at home but it isn't really high value for him to win, or does he push me for more. 
My other older dog is so unlike this one that I am digging into that toolbox with little success. 
I will get there, but won't expect miracles. 
I know I do give this dog more freedom than I should, but my personal life has taken over for the time being(stepmom is in hospice, taking care of the family/support is my focus at this time) so training is not the big priority now. I hope and pray I can get us engaged and tug/fightdrive for that tug kicks in.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

This may be really dumb to ask but, are looking to title, or just doing something to play/work your dog? Of it is to title, I will bow out of any further comments (after this one) as it is out of my expertise.. But, if you are looking to do something fun with your dog and enjoy his talents, then my suggestion is to utilize his drive to sniff and explore.. Start doing trailing or tracking... You might find that once he has the opportunity to utilize his drives in the way he really appreciates, that he is more willing to engage in the areas you want... Just my thoughts


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## K9raqs (Sep 12, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> I have a dog that is much the same. He would rather track/hunt than engage with me. Especially in new places with different scents. It is not avoidance at all, but his need to scent. I track him before we do obedience and it is still over the top. Food drive is high, so I can engage him with food, but then he'll try to find what may have been dropped. I don't want to bang on him for it, and get frustrated which will not help at all.
> Tug, ball, fetch is not valuable on the training field, I can tug at home but it isn't really high value for him to win, or does he push me for more.
> My other older dog is so unlike this one that I am digging into that toolbox with little success.
> I will get there, but won't expect miracles.
> I know I do give this dog more freedom than I should, but my personal life has taken over for the time being(stepmom is in hospice, taking care of the family/support is my focus at this time) so training is not the big priority now. I hope and pray I can get us engaged and tug/fightdrive for that tug kicks in.


 
Yes, this is exactly my issue! To the tee!!!!!!!!!!!

I originally got him in hopes to compete in SchH, but Search& Rescue is a definite Plan B (if I can’t get the drives out for SchH - Iknow they’re there, they just turn off outside of the yard for sniff time).


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

K9raqs said:


> onyx'girl said:
> 
> 
> > I have a dog that is much the same. He would rather track/hunt than engage with me. Especially in new places with different scents. It is not avoidance at all, but his need to scent. I track him before we do obedience and it is still over the top. Food drive is high, so I can engage him with food, but then he'll try to find what may have been dropped. I don't want to bang on him for it, and get frustrated which will not help at all.
> ...


So I may be a tad sensitive to this, but SAR is not a "plan B" because can't do IPO. Your dog ignores you on the IPO field and you don't get a title. In SAR people die. 

If the dogs drive is not strong enough to overcome either distractions on the field or the stress of just being on the field then he is not an appropriate SAR candidate.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

So what did your club training director have to say about all this? Were any seminars that might help you teach your dog engagement recommended? Deb Zappia is an excellent resource for this. Any training tips to keep your dog engaged? Games? Recommended time off from training?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

definitely not suitable for SAR


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Well I personally think the dog might be suitable for SAR if it's drives are for the scent.. My girl probably wouldn't be good for IPO, but she is a solid certified trailer, as is my boy. .. They live for the trail (and soon to be certified HRD) However I truly agree that SAR cannot be a secondary plan.. The immense amount of work, time, money, training etc that is necessary for human and dog is not something to be taken lightly.. And as another poster mentioned, the stakes are enormously higher then title or no title.. Luke life and death high... So I agree wholeheartedly that it is not a light undertaking...


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> So what did your club training director have to say about all this? Were any seminars that might help you teach your dog engagement recommended? Deb Zappia is an excellent resource for this. Any training tips to keep your dog engaged? Games? Recommended time off from training?


Did you see what Jax asked? I'm curious too, what someone who's seen your pup has to say. Another way of looking at what your describing is he's ignoring you. That makes it pretty tough to figure what he'd be suitable for work or sport wise.


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## K9raqs (Sep 12, 2013)

My club director says to work on engagement and prey/balldrive, which I have been trying to do. And it’s not that he “ignores” me necessarily – he just doesn’t want to engage in play or formal obedience (like he does at home) when there are new things to smell. I started reading up on SAR recently. I think channeling his scent drives towards something good, would be awesome for us. I understand it is quite a commitment, but Iam hoping to meet with a group soon to learn more about the whole process. 
I have also registered for a Focus through Games class which starts in a few weeks, so fingers crossed that also helps us in the meantime.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

SAR and any of the scent detection disciplines require tenacity and focus in extremely stimulating environments - 
and they require the dog to have the obedience to search for what YOU want him to work on , not his random , crittering , food litter , self explorations.
At the moment you don't have a dog that is connected to you, and nothing that will motivate him .

what is the pedigree?


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## K9raqs (Sep 12, 2013)

East German/Czech working lines. I'd say about 95% of his pedigree consists of SchH 3 titles.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

K9raqs said:


> My club director says to work on engagement and prey/balldrive, which I have been trying to do. And it’s not that he “ignores” me necessarily – he just doesn’t want to engage in play or formal obedience (like he does at home) when there are new things to smell. I started reading up on SAR recently. I think channeling his scent drives towards something good, would be awesome for us. I understand it is quite a commitment, but Iam hoping to meet with a group soon to learn more about the whole process.
> I have also registered for a Focus through Games class which starts in a few weeks, so fingers crossed that also helps us in the meantime.


I don't mean this disrespectfully, but if he's choosing the environment over what you are telling him to do or offering him, even if you want to use the word engaging instead of attention, that's ignoring you. Prey/balldrive, focus through games, are meant to give you ways to keep his attention through motivation.

Some others will disagree, but depriving him of the fun except on your terms can help. If he's satisfying himself in some other ways, playing with you isn't as important.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

K9raqs said:


> East German/Czech working lines. I'd say about 95% of his pedigree consists of SchH 3 titles.


Would you mind PMing me the pedigree and your club? And how close you are to Baltimore MD and Hawthorne, NJ?


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

There is a way to 'test' and see if it is smelling what he wants, or smelling period... Some methods of training trail dogs hold off on the strict obedience (obviously obedience is necessary, but I mean sharp IPO type obedience) until the dog has fully engaged in the game of Trailing.. Then, obedience is cleaned up... Anyhow, have someone hold your pup while you make high noises, call his name, and run away (drop a scent article about 3ft in front of him before you run off about 50ft and hide behind something). Have the person holding him let go and see if he comes and finds you... I would do this in a safe place before doing this like at a park or somewhere where trouble if he blows you off occurs... Once you have done this a few times (No more than 3 at one period) please let us know how it goes.. We can give more advice from there... I agree that if he is blowing you off totally to do what he wants he might not have the drive for SAR, which requires an immense amount of drive and determination on both partners part... In the other hand, if he is blowing you off for other reasons but has the drive and just needs the right funneling of those drives, you might be ok... Just my thoughts


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## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

@onyx'girl

"I know I do give this dog more freedom than I should, but my personal life has taken over for the time being(stepmom is in hospice, taking care of the family/support is my focus at this time) so training is not the big priority now. I hope and pray I can get us engaged and tug/fightdrive for that tug kicks in."

Do you think too much freedom is a deterrent? I have always wondered if this actually works? With mine, I have not found it so. But maybe I have not restricted long enough?


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## K9raqs (Sep 12, 2013)

Actually I play the hide and seek game quite often and he loves it regardless of our location. He runs to me at 100 mph, so I can’t complain about his recall, which is a wonderful thing. 

I’m really curious to see how he does in this upcoming Focus class we’re registered for. He did pretty good in previous puppy classes I took him to (when I first got him) as far as having motivation and focus. 

Time will tell I guess.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

OK, but how do you play the hide and seek game? The reason I ask is because the little thing I told you is to engage prey drive, if he is past that, then the next steps really start engaging the nose and we can see his drive and determination more... Please explain how you play hide and seek  That we can move on from there, or add something.. Remember, we are trying to diagnose a problem that you said you were having, so information is necessary... Especially over the Internet, lol..


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

gsdluvr said:


> @onyx'girl
> 
> "I know I do give this dog more freedom than I should, but my personal life has taken over for the time being(stepmom is in hospice, taking care of the family/support is my focus at this time) so training is not the big priority now. I hope and pray I can get us engaged and tug/fightdrive for that tug kicks in."
> 
> Do you think too much freedom is a deterrent? I have always wondered if this actually works? With mine, I have not found it so. But maybe I have not restricted long enough?


absolutely. His freedom with the other dogs is the main reason. BUT my other dog is free as well and is great interacting/tug/working with me.
I know that crating and not allowing the younger one to interact with the other dogs all the time may help, but he is still who he is and is more of a challenge to engage. 
I have so many excuses, it really does fall on me. ugh.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

But that's life. I have days where I just leave them to themselves too.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Steve Strom said:


> But that's life. I have days where I just leave them to themselves too.


Life/work is hard to balance for me at this time. 
I wish I was one of those that worked dogs at leisure and not have to work for a living. haha
I don't leave my dogs to themselves unless I am at work. Otherwise we are together, even though me doing yardwork/chores has them romping/running taking me out at the knees. Karlo pushes me to engage in tug or fetch, Gambit headbutts me because he's running, running running and a nutjob. Onyx is old and will try to nail them as they pass 
https://www.facebook.com/jane.biegh...000076707255/1214338308578714/?type=3&theater


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Ha, when mine hit the concrete or deck like that, if they start sliding it gives you a heart attack. I'm lucky, mine goes to work with me so I can get some things worked on during the day.


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## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

I have noticed, some dogs are just naturally more environmentally sensitive, distracted etc.

Can it be attributed to genetics, lack of drive for toys.... or?

I also think there can be great use for dogs like this. I am more comfortable walking my big goof of a male at night because he notices EVERYTHING and it keeps my attention to possible problems. But he is not a competition dog, just useful for safety, LOL!:grin2:


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> I am more comfortable walking my big goof of a male at night because he notices EVERYTHING and it keeps my attention to possible problems.


Darkness may raise your dogs suspicion level, and yours as well....the emotions may run down the line. 


> I have noticed, some dogs are just naturally more environmentally sensitive, distracted etc.
> Can it be attributed to genetics, lack of drive for toys.... or?


Gambit isn't what I would call environmentally sensitive. He is neutral to dogs and people. Quite high in his thresholds. Though his darn nose is comparable to a beagle because sniffing everything is so interesting to him. Hunt and food drive are his talents. He enjoys sniffing and learning when going to places he isn't a regular to.

Today we went to a public park/boat launch (with a new to him person and female intact bitch) to train. Gambit was great with the environment, wanted to sniff but I praised when he engaged with me and worked him with food. 
I also gave a correction or three when he was in working mode, that sniffing the ground was not acceptable. He never shuts down with corrections, in fact it is helpful information to him~ finally.

We then took them swimming(my dogs one at a time) They were fine with the female and she with them. 
All these individual cases, reading the dog in front of us is really what it boils down to .


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## K9raqs (Sep 12, 2013)

Just wanted to give a quick update on my pup. We took a break from SchH training for a few months. In the meantime I had registered him for a "Focus thru Games" class; that was fun and we just completed the 8 week session. He turned 1 on the 13th so I figured I would give the SchH thing another shot. We had an evaluation by a trainer that day (the day of his birthday) and then started training this past Saturday. It was like the light bulb went off! I couldn’t believe what I was seeing with him. The focus was good, the OB was good (for an untrained dog and an inexperienced handler) and his ball drive and bitework were awesome! I guess he was just a little bit of a late bloomer. So needless to say I’m thrilled. I plan to continue our training sessions as often as time/money will allow. I have a good feeling that he will progress nicely.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

That's great! So happy for you!


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