# Landsharking and IPO



## Genalis_mom (Mar 9, 2018)

HI guys!

We are not really having a problem with landsharking at the moment, but I have noticed Genali being much more aggressive with her toys (She absolutely told her stuffed groundhog OFF this morning.) and some really aggressive chewing. SHe has some swollen buds in the back of her mouth, not bad swollen just obviously teething now.

She does pretty good with not gnawing on me, but she has got me a couple times. I don't do the yelp thing. I guess I am old school. I give her a stern loud NO!, walk away and ignore her. If she follows, I will leave the room and shut the door behind me.

BUT, reading the most current thread about biting puppies made me think. I am hoping that, once I get my health issue resolved, Genali and I can enter the world of IPO. I've been very careful in our training to not break confidence or drive, have actually been doing drive building games with the flirt pole. 

For those of you that do IPO, what methods do you use to prevent landsharking?


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## Mei (Mar 30, 2018)

Can someone explain what IPO is?


Mei is also getting aggressive with her toys, tearing them apart and what not.


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## I'm not a shark? (Apr 14, 2017)

How old is your pup? The whole land shark thing is normal and in my experiance little as I have, it usually stops when teathing is over. My dog actually got better once we started doing some bite work but that could have been because he had an outlit for his biting. I stay away from stuffed toys even now at a year and a half, he just tears them to shreads.

@Mei IPO also known as Schutzhunz is a dog sport with obediance, tracking, and protection.


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## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

I’m not following how the two are connected. 

Bitework in IPO comes way way after a GSD should be through landsharking. 

I guess maybe you’re asking how you deal with a pup you’re intentionally increasing the drives of for later IPO work?

Cause I personally don’t do that with a puppy that’s still teething, I just bond and enjoy them. You can maxamize a dogs drives in a couple weeks to a month, I’ve never received an adequate explanation of why it has to done at 20 weeks, other than it looking cool on instagram.


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## Genalis_mom (Mar 9, 2018)

Lol, I am pretty camera shy, so I don't do Instagram, or twitter or even Facebook. My true calling in life was to be the weird hermit-lady with dogs and goats.

I am bonding and enjoying Genali through time spent in play and in training. One does not have to choose between bonding and training, as training is an excellent way to build trust in the relationship and build confidence in a dog/pup. The way I train her now will impact her for the rest of her life, and because of this, the training now could hinder or help her success in IPO. I want to ensure that I am doing nothing that will hinder her. I want to give her the best start that I can.

My concern with the landsharking is ensuring that my corrections don't create a bite inhibition that will hinder the bitework that we will be starting in a couple weeks when we go to our trainer. I have my first session set up, but haven't gone yet, and am full of questions. I was hoping to find someone in here that could answer questions for a puppy in pre-IPO type training.









Tennessee said:


> I’m not following how the two are connected.
> 
> Bitework in IPO comes way way after a GSD should be through landsharking.
> 
> ...


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## Genalis_mom (Mar 9, 2018)

Well, that is good to know, lol. She does pretty good with being gentle with me. Genali has destuffed 2 toys today, so I have removed everything that has stuffing. She only gets stuffie skins now. I am reallylooking forward to starting some bitework training with her. 





I'm not a shark? said:


> How old is your pup? The whole land shark thing is normal and in my experiance little as I have, it usually stops when teathing is over. My dog actually got better once we started doing some bite work but that could have been because he had an outlit for his biting. I stay away from stuffed toys even now at a year and a half, he just tears them to shreads.
> 
> @Mei IPO also known as Schutzhunz is a dog sport with obediance, tracking, and protection.


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## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

Let me rephrase then as my comment was taken the wrong way. I was sarcastically deriding the let’s turn our pups into IPO 3 dogs by 9 months folks that are popular these days, not you specifically at all. 

What I was getting at is I do tons of stuff with my pups, I’ve had them tracking at 12 weeks after their first shots for example, what I don’t do is serious drive development/bite training etc till they’re old enough to handle it. 

Basically, if you’ve turned your teething age pup into a tiny **** hound you should dial it back a notch. 

I apologize my comment came off that way, pretty obvious reading it again that it would be. Mea culpa


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## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

Genalis_mom said:


> -snip-
> 
> My concern with the landsharking is ensuring that my corrections don't create a bite inhibition that will hinder the bitework that we will be starting in a couple weeks when we go to our trainer. I have my first session set up, but haven't gone yet, and am full of questions. I was hoping to find someone in here that could answer questions for a puppy in pre-IPO type training.


Oh, so that’s your question. Should have read your whole post. 

No, it won’t. There’s house rules and training field rules. she’ll figure out which is which. If you get bloodied up a bit training, let it ride though you’re right to want her to know it’s okay to go all out during training.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Way back when my big-boy was a big-baby, we gave him plenty of opportunities to legitimately "land shark". He learned pretty quickly that when the gloves came out, or the rags, or the ball that had finger holds in it, that it was time for bitey games. Things got better as he finished teething. It did take awhile for him to figure out that not every touch was an invitation to rough house. Since he never really had to be corrected for biting, he hit the helper's sleeve like a tank. 

That biting and wrestling and chasing are part of the natural growing process. It is good if you can find legitimate ways for your pup to use that skill.


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## Genalis_mom (Mar 9, 2018)

@Tennessee
No need for apologies, its all good. I work in law enforcement, so I've developed a thick skin and a blunt tongue (not always an asset). I do appreciate your apology though, thank you.

I am in the same boat as Genali. Neither of us has ever done any sort of IPO. I may very well get to this trainer to find him amused by my silly notion. If so, we will just try something else. 




Tennessee said:


> Let me rephrase then as my comment was taken the wrong way. I was sarcastically deriding the let’s turn our pups into IPO 3 dogs by 9 months folks that are popular these days, not you specifically at all.
> 
> What I was getting at is I do tons of stuff with my pups, I’ve had them tracking at 12 weeks after their first shots for example, what I don’t do is serious drive development/bite training etc till they’re old enough to handle it.
> 
> ...


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## Genalis_mom (Mar 9, 2018)

Genali is madly in love with her flirt pole. In all honesty, I am slightly jealous of the thing. She loves to chase and catch the "critter". She'll run after it, but has started cutting corners and cheating a little. The most fun part is when I let it be still on the ground and she stalks it only to have me jerk it away right before she nabs it, this makes for an awesome chase and a growling keyed up puppy. She has also learned to hold tight to the critter because it will just randomly jump right out of her mouth. I am pretty sure that she realizes that I am controlling it because she turned and barked at me the first time I did this, lol.

Honestly, I like the flirt pole because it is the one thing that I can do to give her solid exercise while still obeying the limits placed on me by the doctor. I will be so glad when this mess is over!

Now don't laugh, but the other thing that I am trying to figure out is the commands. I don't know German, and had out of habit given her commands in English. I am switching "drop it" to "Aus" and she is catching on quickly, so I am less worried about it now.

Anyway, I am rambling. My meds are keeping me up at night while everyone else is asleep. I'll go lay down and pretend to sleep, lol.





car2ner said:


> Way back when my big-boy was a big-baby, we gave him plenty of opportunities to legitimately "land shark". He learned pretty quickly that when the gloves came out, or the rags, or the ball that had finger holds in it, that it was time for bitey games. Things got better as he finished teething. It did take awhile for him to figure out that not every touch was an invitation to rough house. Since he never really had to be corrected for biting, he hit the helper's sleeve like a tank.
> 
> That biting and wrestling and chasing are part of the natural growing process. It is good if you can find legitimate ways for your pup to use that skill.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

I never discouraged my female from biting. I just redirected to a tug. Once we started IPO then the tugs or ball on strings were for training only. Now she has a couple ropes that she can chew but certain toys she knows mean training. Flirt poles are good for building drive and working obedience. With my female she was high enough in prey naturally that I was able to utilize the flirt pole as a drive capping tool instead of drive building. And sometimes deprivation of flirt poles, tugs, etc... can be better than overload. Where are you training?


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## Mei (Mar 30, 2018)

I'm not a shark? said:


> How old is your pup? The whole land shark thing is normal and in my experiance little as I have, it usually stops when teathing is over. My dog actually got better once we started doing some bite work but that could have been because he had an outlit for his biting. I stay away from stuffed toys even now at a year and a half, he just tears them to shreads.
> 
> @Mei IPO also known as Schutzhunz is a dog sport with obediance, tracking, and protection.


Thanks! I watched several videos on the YouTube. Pretty cool!


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## hoytn (Oct 1, 2017)

I was wondering the same thing about correcting nips and its effect on possible IPO involvement. For me when she gets over nippy I get the towel or ball, wife brought home a Lasar pointer and Luna loves it.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

hoytn said:


> I was wondering the same thing about correcting nips and its effect on possible IPO involvement. For me when she gets over nippy I get the towel or ball, wife brought home a Lasar pointer and Luna loves it.


I'd never use a laser pointer. Too many possibilities to create issues. There are a lot of better ways to interact with your dog than having them chase a dot, and they wont cause neurotic behavior.


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## Mei (Mar 30, 2018)

hoytn said:


> I was wondering the same thing about correcting nips and its effect on possible IPO involvement. For me when she gets over nippy I get the towel or ball, wife brought home a Lasar pointer and Luna loves it.


Every GSD is different but I remember reading a thread about someone using a laser pen to play. Essentially the person said he regrets doing it because it got to the point his dog became obsessed with the red dot and was constantly looking for it. Even when it was put away. He said his dog seemed to have a lot of anxiety wanting to find the red dot, always ready for it to appear. 

How has it worked with your dog? I've considered it to try and get mine to play with the cats but haven't because of that person's experience.


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

I agree with @CometDog, ditch the Laser pointer! The risk of OCD behaviors developing in consequence is too high, IMO. It's also a potential problem with cats, though, for some reason, people seem less concerned about it. 

Dogs and Laser Pointers - Ask Dr. Caryn

https://paws4udogs.wordpress.com/2014/12/22/the-dangers-of-playing-with-laser-lights/

Laser Pointer Games are Bad for Dogs | Dog Training Nation

https://www.catbehaviorassociates.com/should-you-use-a-laser-light-toy-with-your-cat/


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## hoytn (Oct 1, 2017)

Ok. Relax I use it very sparingly and when I finish it I stop it on a toy. That way she gets something at the end.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Fine if you want to do it with your dog despite it all, but a lot of new owners come here and read for advice.

Every experienced person here is going to take the opportunity to say ANY laser play with dogs is BAD. You can take the advice or not, but nobody here will let you defend it without pointing out otherwise, out of a responsibility for the greater good. Bad advice or info won't be ignored by most well meaning experienced people here. 

Plenty of people did not know about the dangers of creating OCDs with laser pointers, especially with dogs that have prey drive..now they know.


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

hoytn said:


> Ok. Relax I use it very sparingly and when I finish it I stop it on a toy. That way she gets something at the end.


Yes, well, do beware of falling into a well of misleading self-assurance. There are no studies of which I am aware that outline the necessary and/or sufficient conditions for OCD behaviors in this specific context (e.g., once weekly exposure for 5 minutes vs. twice weekly, etc). Might be nice to have that information, but we don't. Because we don't know precisely how/why this happens (viz., post mortem brain studies would be required), one can't and shouldn't take comfort from the "sparing" use of such toys. Similarly, ending on a good note (that is, ensuring that "she gets something at the end") isn't likely to reverse the hypothesized neurological damage that's been done. 

Aly


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

Aly said:


> I agree with @CometDog,


I often agree with @CometDog, but I meant to say that I agreed with @cdwoodcox's comments. Sorry for the misattribution. 

:blush: 

Aly


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Aly said:


> I often agree with @CometDog, but I meant to say that I agreed with @cdwoodcox's comments. Sorry for the misattribution.
> 
> :blush:
> 
> Aly


Are you talking about the laser pointer poster (that's a mouthful) because if so that would be @cloudpump LOL


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

Pytheis said:


> Are you talking about the laser pointer poster (that's a mouthful) because if so that would be @cloudpump LOL


Maybe...

I've been up all night finishing a ms. Have a call in an hour and am then taking my sorry self to bed. I'm not even sure I'm in the right thread. It's Friday right?

:rofl:


Aly


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## hoytn (Oct 1, 2017)

ok, i will stop. i also did not want to hijack the thread.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Aly said:


> Maybe...
> 
> I've been up all night finishing a ms. Have a call in an hour and am then taking my sorry self to bed. I'm not even sure I'm in the right thread. It's Friday right?
> 
> ...


This honestly made me laugh way too much. Get some sleep!


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

hoytn said:


> ok, i will stop. i also did not want to hijack the thread.


It is relevant and good information/topic  Plenty genuinely do not know.


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## Genalis_mom (Mar 9, 2018)

@cdwoodcox

RIght now, we are only doing some light training in the backyard. I have found a local IPO trainer and his club, but we can't participate until Genali has all her shots and I am cleared by my doctor. I can not WAIT to get started! I am completely green, a total blank slate, so I really hope that this trainer and I hit it off well.

I am wondering if we have any IPO folks from NC on this forum, now. Yes, I agree with you the deprivation works. But, I have found another benefit to the flirt pole. Genali loves the flirt pole but hates the car with a golden passion. For a while, if she sees me opening the car door, she'd take off in the opposite direction. Not cool. So, I started storing the pole in the car, so that every time she gets the pole we have to get it out of the car. Now she will literally climb into the car to make sure I find it!




cdwoodcox said:


> I never discouraged my female from biting. I just redirected to a tug. Once we started IPO then the tugs or ball on strings were for training only. Now she has a couple ropes that she can chew but certain toys she knows mean training. Flirt poles are good for building drive and working obedience. With my female she was high enough in prey naturally that I was able to utilize the flirt pole as a drive capping tool instead of drive building. And sometimes deprivation of flirt poles, tugs, etc... can be better than overload. Where are you training?


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## Genalis_mom (Mar 9, 2018)

If ya'll want to talk about laser pointers, that is fine. I give permission to highjack! lol

I personally don't allow laser pointers in the house. Not even for the cats anymore. I saw a friend playing with his dog and a laser pointer. The jerk was having a blast putting the red dot on the dogs body and cracking up with the dog freaked out. It didn't take long before the dog was self-mutilating so bad that he was PTS.

Laser pointers may seem fun to us, but they are prey that the animal has no hope in ever catching. That is unfair and just mean (I am not saying that to anyone in particular).


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