# GSD from working lines?



## Maxx (Jun 23, 2012)

Is that the correct term? Working line vs work line? 

Anyway, after just a few minutes reading / researching this, I came to the conclusion that I'd be most interested in a working line GSD.

I don't know yet what the thoughts are regarding show vs working here but I think that it's a bit of a travesty what has happened to the breed. I always thought that the biggest problem was BYB not caring if one of the dogs wasn't a purebred or even a true GSD. 

But, I notice a lot of 'show lines' or sloped back GSDs out there. My family's dog, Max (my fav. out of 3) was probably one. He had hip dysplasia. :-( I looked at a bunch of pictures of dogs with sloped backs, these are now called North American Shepherds? I can see how the dogs won't have enough strength in their hips! There's not enough structure on their lower backs and above the tail! 

If I was getting a puppy, I'd want to have all the info regarding hip health, that's for sure. I'd also REQUEST working lines. However, they seem rare in NA especially Canada. Also, probably expensive, right?

Anyway, I was curious if that is a major topic here? How do you ensure you have working lines? Evidence or proof of registration of German working lines or what? It seems like it would be almost impossible to find and if you do, you need to be rich to afford it? Or the typical prices are around $1500? 

I guess I just wanted to say that the breeders that are dedicated to working lines and doing their part to continue the breed (to the standard) are to be commended. They probably have less health problems and the dogs are more likely to lead (less) pain-free lives. Good for them.

I'm not sure whether I'll be fortunate and lucky to be able to own a working line GSD but this site is great for knowing what to look for and obtain related info!

I guess my final question is how to find such breeders. I guess you have to google 'working lines' and GSD breeders in your area/locale? I already own a senior (toy breed) non-GSD and a bit apprehensive about introducing another dog. A family member is not liking that idea and I guess I'm ok with it. But, I want my next dog to be a GSD or GR. My favs. 

Anyway, thanks for reading...


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

You need to keep reading and learn more about the pedigrees and how to read them. To break it down easily, the WGSL (West German Show Line) dogs are generally the black/red "saddleback" dogs. The dogs will be Schutzhund titled since you need a working title to compete beyond the entry levels in that venue (another qualifying title is the herding title, HGH. Not as common). There are a few sable or blacks out there but for the most part you will see the black/reds. They will generally have a "V" and other high conformation ratings before their name. (Like VA4 or V2)
Here is the pedigree for my male WGSL, Ron. 
Ankormann von der Wolfenbach - German Shepherd Dog

The Working Line dog pedigrees will have a variety of colors throughout, with sable being dominant, but you will also see blacks, bi-colors and blanket backs. They will also have SchH titles, but you will also see the emphasis will be on the working titles. The conformation ratings before their names will be SG or G (if they have a conformation rating at all), with many less V ratings. But the working titles will have more info, like BSP (Bundesieger participant, the working dog championship), or WUSV meaning they were on a World team. Here is the pedigree for my WL female, Uma.
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=686620
The biggest thing to do is read pedigrees and learn the kennel names of the current and legendary kennels (both show and work) so you can figure out what you like and want. There are plenty of pedigrees where there will be some of both, as crossing show to work was much more common even 20 years ago. Oh, and $1500 is about average for a WL pup. Most around here go for about $1800-2000.
One good way to find a breeder is to get involved with Schutzhund in your area. Go watch some dogs and when you see some you like find out where they came from.


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## skew12 (Aug 28, 2012)

Exactly the info that I've been looking for/at. It's a bit much at first but it slowly gets easier. Trust me.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

There are some excellent breeders in North America that never get a chance because of the cache of an imported dog . What is your location .

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> But, I notice a lot of 'show lines' or sloped back GSDs out there. My family's dog, Max (my fav. out of 3) was probably one. He had hip dysplasia. :-( I looked at a bunch of pictures of dogs with sloped backs, these are now called North American Shepherds? I can see how the dogs won't have enough strength in their hips! There's not enough structure on their lower backs and above the tail!


This is not true. I second the suggestion to do more reading and learning.

They are not "North American Shepherds". They're German Shepherds like all the rest.



> They probably have less health problems and the dogs are more likely to lead (less) pain-free lives. Good for them.


Not really. They're all the same breed, they all share the same breed specific maladies.

I have American show lines, working lines, crosses, and German show lines all in my house. Temperaments and personalities are all varied, but everybody is healthy. I do have one dysplastic bitch (very unfortunate), but you'd never know it to watch her work and play.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

Many of us on here have workline dogs. I never knew they existed until about 6 years ago, but they were always what I was looking for in a dog. 

I would suggest you do more research before settling on a breed or type of dog. Goldens and GSDs are vastly different breeds and it's a bit different to be considering both. 

Have you considered the energy level of workinglines besides looking at their functionality? I will say that I am not a fan of the american or german showline dog. In my opinion, I find them generally lacking in functionality, workablity, and structural soundness. Yes, there are some that are ok, but they aren't in the same category as a workingline. The energy level of a workingline can be way more than most people can handle, but that's what I like in a dog.

If you still like the workingline dog and are ready to find a breeder, just ask on here for references. Give us your location and we can help you. Not all breeders are reputable and references can make all the difference. You don't need to be rich to own one and my understanding is they are about the same price as an american showline and cheaper than a german showline.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Xeph said:


> They are not "North American Shepherds". They're German Shepherds like all the rest.


I think what the OP is referring to is the issue a few years ago where the major North American registries tried to override and/or supersede the German breeding requirements, standard and paperwork. It was something of a battle and the SV(the parent club in Germany) basically said if a satisfactory agreement was not made then the SV would no longer recognize the GSDs that had been registered through those registries and that they would no longer recognize them as GSDs at all and would henceforth be considered North American Shepherds. 
They came to a mutual agreement and the matter was dropped but many people decided the SVs classification was valid and have continued to refer to the separate types this way on their websites or breeding blurbs.
I'm totally simplifying, but this is the rough draft of the origination of the term.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Elaine said:


> Many of us on here have workline dogs. I never knew they existed until about 6 years ago, but they were always what I was looking for in a dog.
> 
> I would suggest you do more research before settling on a breed or type of dog. Goldens and GSDs are vastly different breeds and it's a bit different to be considering both.
> 
> ...


The biggest problem with the working line dogs is that their owners think they are more valid then the other GSDs out there. There are great dogs out there from ALL the different lines. And there are extreme dogs in all the different lines (including working lines). Don't get hung up on color. There are black and tans in the working lines. And there are sables, blacks, bi-colors, blanket backs in the show lines. 

One thing though, if you want to go with a working line dog, you might want to get involved in those venues the working line dogs are more likely to be in. Find a good Schutzhund club in your area and start hanging around, maybe offer to help, I don't know, but get to know the people and their dogs. See what you like and what you don't like. Ask people where they got their dog, and ask them about the breeders and what they are known for or if they recommend them.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

There are great working line breeders in Canada. 
My dog comes from Narnia Kennels in NB.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Maxx said:


> I guess I just wanted to say that the breeders that are dedicated to working lines and doing their part to continue the breed (to the standard) are to be commended. *They probably have less health problems and the dogs are more likely to lead (less) pain-free lives.* Good for them.


That's not something you want to assume regardless of what line you decide to get. Check to make sure health testing is being done regardless of how great the line may look in a pedigree. 
[/QUOTE]


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## Maxx (Jun 23, 2012)

selzer said:


> There are black and tans in the working lines. And there are sables, blacks, bi-colors, blanket backs in the show lines.
> 
> One thing though, if you want to go with a working line dog, you might want to get involved in those venues the working line dogs are more likely to be in. Find a good Schutzhund club in your area and start hanging around, maybe offer to help, I don't know, but get to know the people and their dogs. See what you like and what you don't like. Ask people where they got their dog, and ask them about the breeders and what they are known for or if they recommend them.


I like the colors the the working lines often have, myself.  Prominent black...

Anyway, that sounds like a good idea. I'm not sure if I have the time and money to go visit them but contacting them is a good idea. Whenever I'd be ready, though, I would definitely visit whoever I can. 'Seems most will be a trip, though. 



bocron said:


> I think what the OP is referring to is the issue a few years ago where the major North American registries tried to override and/or supersede the German breeding requirements, standard and paperwork. It was something of a battle and the SV(the parent club in Germany) basically said if a satisfactory agreement was not made then the SV would no longer recognize the GSDs that had been registered through those registries and that they would no longer recognize them as GSDs at all and would henceforth be considered North American Shepherds.
> They came to a mutual agreement and the matter was dropped but many people decided the SVs classification was valid and have continued to refer to the separate types this way on their websites or breeding blurbs.
> I'm totally simplifying, but this is the rough draft of the origination of the term.


That would be true. Also, I think there is a problem with careless breeding and if someone doesn't like to hear/read that, oh well. Would von Stephanitz be proud of what's developed? Probably not. If it's difficult to locate or find genuine working lines, that is saying something. I look on kijiji and online breeder sites and there seems to be only some that make it clear they have working lines and/or schutzhund dogs. Then you have to worry about whether it's sincere - although, being part of a club helps. 

I don't think this is how it was envisioned to be. I'm so glad to read that they wont' be much more $$ than show lines or typical AKC/CKC dogs. I was worried about them being priced twice as much. Besides, why can't these dogs be displayed in the show ring anyway as most are just posing? These dogs are capable of agility and other events and they're more applicable to the breed standard. I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers. Just giving my perspective.

Remember, I did have four Shepherds and one female had two litters of puppies. I was a young kid then as this was years ago but they didn't exhibit the best traits. Loved 'em of course but let's face it, I can be objective and concede it was not a good situation. But, no one realized that it was harmful to the overall development of the breed. Multiply that by X amount of family breeders and some of us are wondering where working lines are when they should be the only one. 

I loved our dogs but the adults were afraid of thunder and the female had a streak of not being overly confident. I liked the male the best, Max, and he was the most independent but I'm not sure which lines they were although they were purebred. We had papers but I'm realizing that this is a very elaborate process and things need to be thoroughly screened. I hope $1000 - $2000 stays as the range for working line because I notice a lot of BYBers on online sites and this isn't regulated or anything. It just depends on whether people care enough and, sorry, I think many don't. The Working Line breeders don't get enough credit, imho.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Credit from who? People that are into the WL's know who is who, pedigree-wise. I don't think they breed for the status symbol, but for utility. 
They breed dogs to work or do sport, and be healthy and sound while doing it. 
Of course they love to see what they produce go on and be successful, but campaigning and high price brackets aren't part of their 'success'...they stand on what they produce.


> The biggest problem with the working line dogs is that their owners think they are more valid then the other GSDs out there.


If this is the biggest problem with working line dogs, I don't see 'the problem'.


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## Maxx (Jun 23, 2012)

Elaine said:


> Many of us on here have workline dogs. I never knew they existed until about 6 years ago, but they were always what I was looking for in a dog.
> 
> I would suggest you do more research before settling on a breed or type of dog. Goldens and GSDs are vastly different breeds and it's a bit different to be considering both.
> 
> ...


Sorry, I meant to reply to this, too.

Yes, I've read about the energy level. I can't imagine them having more energy than the Shepherds we owned but I am hoping one is no more energetic than the four or more we owned at one time.  We lived on a farm and at times, we wondered if they'd ever calm down. There's a lot of parks in my area so I like to think (prospective) he'd/she'd get enough exercise. I'm mostly just reading about WL GSDs and trying to obtain info for now anyway. It's good to be educated before anything is done and at the very least, I learned something about GSDs I wasn't aware of before. 

Thanks for the good advice and that goes to the other posters, too.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Maxx said:


> Anyway, I was curious if that is a major topic here? How do you ensure you have working lines? Evidence or proof of registration of German working lines or what? It seems like it would be almost impossible to find and if you do, you need to be rich to afford it? Or the typical prices are around $1500?


Working line GSDs mainly originate in Europe, but there are many, many breeders of working line GSDs in North America, some of them on this very forum. Don't be fooled by German pedigrees which show solid SchH titles--those might be show lines as well, since ALL GSDs in Germany must pass a Schutzhund trial in order to breed. If you study pedigrees you will learn which are working and which are show lines. Prices for a working line pup are in the $1500-2000 range, German show lines sometimes twice that, have no actual idea what American showlines go for.

So there are German show lines, working lines, and American show lines. There is essentially no such thing as an "American" working line, unless you count American breeders who started with European working line dogs.

All lines have strengths and weaknesses, all have faults, all have extremes. All lines have hip dysplasia as well, despite attempts to breed away from it.

The question is, what do you want to DO with your dog? Do you want to compete in sport? Have an active companion that you can take anywhere? A family dog? A protection dog? An obedience champion? A jogging pal?


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

How about just looking for the freaking line you like with out throwing the other lines under the bus, I get so tired of people who feel compelled to criticize a whole line of dogs because it's not their choice, Dude, just do your homework and buy the dog you like, that doesn't require you to degrade others.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

LARHAGE said:


> How about just looking for the freaking line you like with out throwing the other lines under the bus, I get so tired of people who feel compelled to criticize a whole line of dogs because it's not their choice, Dude, just do your homework and buy the dog you like, that doesn't require you to degrade others, cause guess what? I'll never trade my dog for yours.


:thumbup:This.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

LARHAGE said:


> How about just looking for the freaking line you like with out throwing the other lines under the bus, I get so tired of people who feel compelled to criticize a whole line of dogs because it's not their choice, Dude, just do your homework and buy the dog you like, that doesn't require you to degrade others.


Me too!


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Andaka said:


> Me too!


 Agree


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Take it easy on the new guy, folks. He doesn't know any better.


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## Maxx (Jun 23, 2012)

LARHAGE said:


> How about just looking for the freaking line you like with out throwing the other lines under the bus, I get so tired of people who feel compelled to criticize a whole line of dogs because it's not their choice, Dude, just do your homework and buy the dog you like, that doesn't require you to degrade others.


Not sure what the problem is.


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## Maxx (Jun 23, 2012)

Freestep said:


> Take it easy on the new guy, folks. He doesn't know any better.


I didn't 'degrade' anyone. That's a strange perception.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I wanted to chime in on this when OP first posted...

Working lines (in general) do have more energy then the other lines. And that energy isn't just "staying up all day" its a drive to do things, not just run around in parks. These dogs need to do things, like agility or obedience, in order to truly get tired. I know you think that these dogs will be like the ones you had, but if you go to a breeder that knows what they're doing they will be very very different. Many times we see people come on the forum and remember their dogs when they were little and they don't realize the work their parents put into that dog to be that way.

The health thing...hips have nothing to do with the slope of the back. A weak back end is a weak back end and has nothing to do with show line or working line. In fact, the average show line has better angulation in the back end for more economic movement. A lot of your information is coming from the internet, its quite easy to tell that part, please get out and meet dogs. Go to clubs, go to AKC/CKC shows, go to Schutzhund trials/clubs, and actually SEE the difference in the dogs. Try to go up to an ASL breeder and tell them their dogs have bad hips and I'd love to see their reaction to that statement.

If you currently have a toy dog, and you're deciding between a GSD and a Golden Retriever, really do your research. A well bred working line is a lot of dog and a lot of work. A working line dog is a commitment...its not just a dog that you take to a park and expect to be obedient. Working lines also have their own issues, especially when the owners aren't able to put in the work that is required.

Please please please go out and meet dogs and breeders...don't just read things on the internet. You'll always see the extremes on the internet, you never see the median. You'll read many biased opinions, and a lot of outdated information.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Maxx said:


> I didn't 'degrade' anyone. That's a strange perception.


Maybe not intentionally, but this site has owners from all lines...and sometimes some heated discussions on what is the true GSD. So by saying a showline dog is a lesser dog, proponents of that type rightfully take offense. Of course it goes both ways.

For the most part we peacefully co-exist on this board and agree to disagree on some of the finer points.



Someone can add to this list if they want. I think they are the main breakdowns. I gather the tension has been there since the beginning of the SV, but the main split took place in the 70s where the differences increased and fewer people "crossed the lines" when selecting breeding pairs. But pendulums swing and time will tell what happens going forward.

Working line (West German, Czech, Belgian)
Show Lines (West German, North American, Canadian, British)
BYB (that is pretty much what you are going to find on kiji)
Schutzhund does not make a dog working lines. GSDs must have schutzhund titles in Germany to have registerable/breedable offspring over there. German Showline breeders over here often voluntarily follow suit and do the same. Sometimes you can get workingline dogs that have some parents with no schutzhund titles over here as they are not required by AKC (my pup has a working line dam who is a certified SAR tracking dog and she has untitled, but working police patrol dogs in her lineage)

Working line dogs are typically less expensive, not more, than showline dogs. Unfortunately, the "black sable look" has really caught on and many people buy working line dogs for the looks, so a lot are also BYB and it is just as possible for a working line dog to have problems as a showline dog. It depends on the dogs in the background and the knowledge and experience of the breeder in putting the right dogs together.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Someone can add to this list if they want. .

Working line (West German, Czech, Belgian, DDR)
Show Lines (West German, North American, Canadian, British)
BYB (that is pretty much what you are going to find on kiji)
Note to self. Do not answer threads before two cups of coffee. Forgot DDR so I added.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Sir/Ma'am, the key to getting a good dog is finding/dealing with a knowledgable breeder. You seem to have some basic knowledge of the breed, so talk to some breeders that are breeding the type of GS you prefer. Truthfully, if I was in your position, I would find a very creditable mentor and take their advice. It is difficult to discern quality from websites, from internets, and even from talking to many breeders. There is a lot of hyper sensitivity about the different lines,....some fair, some not fair. Find the mentor, and let them guide you to some nice possibilities.jmo


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

a good dog is a good dog is a good dog, while we all may have our preferences , one should appreciate that there are good dogs (and even great dogs) from all the lines out there. 

To the OP, unless you can get out there and MEET dogs, meet breeders, have hands on with different dogs you won't get a true sense of what you see via the net. 

And yes, I do think you rather threw the dogs that don't appeal to you, your perception of them under the bus..it would have been kinder to just say "I prefer xxx".

I have working lines, but can certainly appreciate a good dog even if he was a purple one that came from the moon


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## KatsMuse (Jun 5, 2012)

Maxx said:


> Is that the correct term? Working line vs work line?
> 
> Anyway, after just a few minutes reading / researching this, I came to the conclusion that I'd be most interested in a working line ...


IMO, you need to do more research...IN PERSON. I have to agree with cliffson and JACODA on this.
I have both...IMO, one is not 'better' than the other.
I find that it's a matter of preference and deciding what you actually _want to do with the dog._

Kat


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## Maxx (Jun 23, 2012)

That's fine but if people want to get upset, why don't they contact the SV and complain? I was merely saying I agree with promoting the standard. 

German Shepherds SV Standard

Verein für Deutsche Schäferhunde (SV) e.V.: Startseite


They're the ones that have a strict view and react to it. 
Obviously, there is a problem. Read:

Leerburg | The Split Between the German Police & The SV

I apologize if you somehow found yourself offended but it was not my intent. However, I won't change my opinion because some people prefer or use show lines or other lines of GSDs. Unless, I'm not allowed to give my opinion, I'll stick by what I said.

AFAIK, my family had show lines and even if there was a working pedigree in there someplace, they probably didn't exhibit many WL traits. So, as you can see, I am very objective about this. I'm just on the fence of thinking that it is a difficult project to promote 'the standard' as there's a lot of controversy and conflict (disagreements and opinions) out there so why not be understanding since they have the more difficult chore? 

Btw, any dog I'd get would probably be a 'companion' and pet. It would be a bonus if he/she is capable of typical working line work (agility, tracking etc.) and from genuine WLs. I'm just saying I sympathize with WL breeders and those who support that idea. I happen to agree with it. I'm a nobody who is just giving their opinion. 

Btw, I also read this thread and it was very informative:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...epherd-organizations-newbie-sv-wusv-usca.html


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

It is still clear you really don't understand the difference between the lines. I think Cliffson gave you good advice as was the advice to actually meet the dogs. 

I have workingline dogs, but based on your description so far many German showline dgos would probably meet, if not greatly exceed, your expectations.

We have a thread (I wrote) in the General Info section on internet experts. Might be a good read to get off on the right foot. To me, "opinions" are weighted based on my knowledge of the source from which they come...


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

selzer said:


> :thumbup:This.





> selzer @ page 1: The biggest problem with the working line dogs is that their owners think they are more valid then the other GSDs out there.


Well there are so many "breeding programs" based on breeding stock having no more than CGCs and a few Rally titles, if that! That is not substantial working ability in my books....??? And look at the ones producing enough litters to justify a monthly classified in Dog World - just pick up a few issues and look who advertises!!! THAT certainly this looks like the start of throwing working ability under the bus - not the responsible exeperienced WL breeders who frequent this board! 

Certainly get tired of posts condemning working lines when there are soooo many BYB animals in shelters and rescues....sure, some WL end up there too....but there are BYB using WL who just sell to whoever walks in with money.....I would love to be able to sell 3-7 litters a year and not work a real life job....but finding homes for that many pups does not allow you to be selective on homes - and THAT is why irresponsible, ignorant people end up with GSDs and end up dumping them. 

Lee


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

LARHAGE said:


> How about just looking for the freaking line you like with out throwing the other lines under the bus, I get so tired of people who feel compelled to criticize a whole line of dogs because it's not their choice, Dude, just do your homework and buy the dog you like, that doesn't require you to degrade others.


I don't breed dogs, nor have I purchased one, ours were all rescued, but I AGREE with this 100%!
Mostly it's uneducated passersby who do this.
They think dogs are "crippled" because of stacked photos, when nothing could be further from the truth.

To the OP, solid black can be found in all lines, not just working. Working lines often tend to be Sable which is not one of my favorite colors. 
Our GSD has perfect coloration and I'm guessing he's from American lines, although he was picked up as a stray. He's very dark with a dark face, and primarily a blanket back black/tan but I'm willing to bet some of his siblings are "bi color" which has "prominent black".


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I know folks like this, half-baked "titles" (that any decent PET dog can do) that and they ride the coattails of past dogs in the pedigree, without proving their _own _dog 



> Well there are so many "breeding programs" based on breeding stock having no more than CGCs and a few Rally titles, if that! That is not substantial working ability in my books....???


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Maxx said:


> That's fine but if people want to get upset, why don't they contact the SV and complain? I was merely saying I agree with promoting the standard.


You haven't been reading this forum very long, have you? 

You're not going to make any friends here by parroting what you read on the Leerburg site. He does not speak for everyone in the GSD world. Yes, someone is going to take offense if you insult show lines, because some folks here breed show lines.

Fact is, you don't really know much about the different bloodlines, so you can't make an objective judgment yet. I don't know if you have gone out and met actual dogs at shows and trials, but you probably should, so that you can form your own opinion. There is a lot of stuff on the internet that is misleading, exaggerated, and just plain false.

Working line dogs do tend to have a lot of energy, but so do some showline dogs. For what you want, a working line or German show line could fit the bill--but you need to visit breeders and see their dogs, to see what it is that YOU like.


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## Maxx (Jun 23, 2012)

Freestep said:


> You haven't been reading this forum very long, have you?
> 
> You're not going to make any friends here by parroting what you read on the Leerburg site. He does not speak for everyone in the GSD world. Yes, someone is going to take offense if you insult show lines, because some folks here breed show lines.
> 
> ...


I guess I shouldn't bother replying to this thread. Thanks for the info and advice all.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

This is a discussion board. Discussion, i.e. different opinions are voiced. You shouldn've bothered to join this board if you are not up to opening your mind and discussing subjects without falling apart if someone disagrees with your point of view. Good luck.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

No - don't quit reading -there is alot of experience here...the trick is to figure out who is blowing smoke and who is credible.....

lots of pet people love their dogs but have problems, and get alot of help here.

lots of people who have dogs with issues LOVE their dogs!!! But when they constantly refer newcomers to breeders who are NOT really producing sound dogs or working dogs or whatever, or refer people to breeders based on pretty photos...you have to look at the credibility of the person making the referral....

lots of experienced people here in ALL types of GSDs...

lots of agendas come up that do not appear to be related to the OPs questions...just like in real life, converstations go off on tangents....sometimes good info comes out of the tangents...

Stick around....just accept that there is alot of crossfire in any discussion!!

Lee


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I currently have a West German SL and a West German WL dog. They're actually pretty comparable in energy level, and they both have an off switch. I don't give either of them hours and hours of exercise daily because like most people, I work for a living! 

They're both fine with that, and are quite calm around the house. They don't drive us crazy if they don't go anywhere for a few days or even for a week, and we like to involve them as an active part of our life. They go to off leash parks to chase balls and swim, I take them (separately) on leashed hikes from 3-8+ miles at a nearby lake, Halo races in flyball and has done several dock diving events, my husband takes Keefer to visit his mother in assisted living once a week or so, and both dogs took nosework classes for awhile. Keefer has been to a huge music festival in Golden Gate park in SF, (5 stages, several hundred thousand people), he's been to street fairs (both were before we got Halo), they've been to wineries, they love going to the beach, and recently we took them for a weekend with relatives at a B & B.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Maxx said:


> I guess I shouldn't bother replying to this thread. Thanks for the info and advice all.


I thought you said you wanted to keep an open mind? You can browse breeder websites all day long, but at the end of the day, breeders are naturally biased in favor of their own dogs. You need objective viewpoints from others, as well as personal experience, to learn how to separate truth from fiction. 

If you're not comfortable hearing from a wide range of experience and opinion such as here on this board, you may not have the temperament to deal with a powerful, energetic, high-drive, potentially aggressive dog like a GSD. If you like gentle, soft, non-challenging, agreeable things in your life, you might want to go with a Golden Retriever.


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## Maxx (Jun 23, 2012)

Freestep said:


> I thought you said you wanted to keep an open mind? You can browse breeder websites all day long, but at the end of the day, breeders are naturally biased in favor of their own dogs. You need objective viewpoints from others, as well as personal experience, to learn how to separate truth from fiction.
> 
> If you're not comfortable hearing from a wide range of experience and opinion such as here on this board, you may not have the temperament to deal with a powerful, energetic, high-drive, potentially aggressive dog like a GSD. If you like gentle, soft, non-challenging, agreeable things in your life, you might want to go with a Golden Retriever.


I have the open mind, other's don't. I just stated my opinion and some people couldn't resist and whined about it. It's fine to have their own ideas on everything but some of the replies were really childish. 



GSD07 said:


> This is a discussion board. Discussion, i.e. different opinions are voiced. You shouldn've bothered to join this board if you are not up to opening your mind and discussing subjects without falling apart if someone disagrees with your point of view. Good luck.


What?!? They're not just disagreeing, they're offended and insulted and expressing so. For what? Because some stranger on a GSD forum said he agrees with the 'official breed standard?' I thought many breeders want this?!? 

What is really troubling is some mods are also posting giving the thumbs up to these replies. 



wolfstraum said:


> No - don't quit reading -there is alot of experience here...the trick is to figure out who is blowing smoke and who is credible.....
> 
> lots of pet people love their dogs but have problems, and get alot of help here.
> 
> ...


Thanks. All I did was ask about working breeds and said, I think the historical expression thereof by Von Stephanitz himself, "sounds good to me." I think the concerns and controversies expressed by people seems accurate when you are coming across a lot of BYBers for all breeds. That's all I said. Some people seemed to take offense for some reason. I even said that my family owned a show dog (which won champion a long time ago). I know there's lots to learn about the bloodlines but my initial IMPRESSION and insight suggest to me, whether I get one of these dogs or not, that I like the idea of WLs. :help:


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## Maxx (Jun 23, 2012)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I currently have a West German SL and a West German WL dog. They're actually pretty comparable in energy level, and they both have an off switch. I don't give either of them hours and hours of exercise daily because like most people, I work for a living!
> 
> They're both fine with that, and are quite calm around the house. They don't drive us crazy if they don't go anywhere for a few days or even for a week, and we like to involve them as an active part of our life. They go to off leash parks to chase balls and swim, I take them (separately) on leashed hikes from 3-8+ miles at a nearby lake, Halo races in flyball and has done several dock diving events, my husband takes Keefer to visit his mother in assisted living once a week or so, and both dogs took nosework classes for awhile. Keefer has been to a huge music festival in Golden Gate park in SF, (5 stages, several hundred thousand people), he's been to street fairs (both were before we got Halo), they've been to wineries, they love going to the beach, and recently we took them for a weekend with relatives at a B & B.


It sounds like they're quite active, indeed! I probably have to wait for a while before I can entertain the idea of getting either WL or SL...any GSD. My toy breed dog is a senior and I am concerned that he won't be very open to another dog especially a big dog. But, my Father got a GR and he lived to 13 and was a decent apartment dog. When he was a teen, a GSD he owned won Best In Show. I read two 'GSDs in apartments? threads and paid close attention because I was thinking it would be hopeless. Contrary to what some ppl here think, I know the exuberance and energy these dogs have. Maybe not WL and it is apparently even greater, usually, so I would have my hands full, 'sound like it. I was glad to come across here to read and learn of people's experiences.

WL is cheaper usually so that sounded good to me, too. I would not consider such if I thought I could not handle it. Maybe, I'll conclude that, anyway, but I hope not. It sounds like fun to do all that.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Maxx said:


> My toy breed dog is a senior and I am concerned that he won't be very open to another dog especially a big dog.


That is definitely something you should take into consideration. Even a larger dog that's a senior might not be up to the energy of a GSD puppy, but with a toy breed who is going to be so much smaller, I think I'd wait. 

Mine are "active" in the sense that we like to participate in activities with them, but there are entire weeks that go by when they don't do anything more than chase each other around the house occasionally, or take naps. We have a very small yard, not even large enough to throw a ball for them, so we have to take them to off leash parks for play. At most, that happens once a week, but lately it hasn't even been that often because I'm going to flyball practice on Sundays, I'm gone all weekend for a tournament about once a month, and Tom has been dealing with his mom's health issues, which has disrupted our usual schedule. 

Since Keefer loves people and is gentle with them, Tom's been taking him to visit his mom while I'm at practice with Halo. I try to get him out once during the week for a nice hike after work, but we haven't actually been to the park in weeks, so they're really not getting all that much exercise.

Keefer (SL) turned 7 a couple of weeks ago and Halo (WL) is 3-1/2. She was quite active as a puppy, but she's matured nicely, and has adapted well to our lifestyle. She was $300 less than him.


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## Maxx (Jun 23, 2012)

Can I start over with everyone (in particular, those who didn't like 'my opinion?')?

I didn't mean to stir anything up.

I probably can't handle WLs anyway as I'm getting older. I just like what I read, is all. 

Maybe I'm stuck with going with something at kijiji or maybe I'll have health problems down the line and I need to care for my little guy still. 

People here are so fortunate.... I really liked our GSDs and they probably weren't even WLs. 

These dogs would often go after porcupines and kept doing it, even though quills were going into their faces! LOL So crazy.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Maxx said:


> I probably can't handle WLs anyway as I'm getting older.


How old are you?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

You don't have to start over, find someone that is very knowledgable who likes the type of dog you desire. Talk to them and get some informed recommendations of good kennels that produce what you want. Remember the term kennel blindness, remember the symptoms?, Well today there is "lines" blindness, and the sames symptoms define it. This is in all lines, that is why I think lines are one of the biggest detriments to the breed in conjunction with breeders that think this way. Just one lone opinion....so don't worry about defining lines....work on getting your pup or adult dog and get back into the breed.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I think you are getting a reaction because German Showline dogs are ALSO bred to the SV standard; it then comes down to interpreting the meaning and that is where the arguments occur. There is probably some right on both sides so it is better to be civil and learn from one another.

The page you linked with a comment on the SV standard - case del manago appears to be a showline breeder (well they kind of have a mix of breeds and types, but the E litter is definitely showline) [Question, can you get a koer rating without any schutzhund titles (she does have HIC)]?

American lines went down a very nasty road for awhile and it seems like folks are trying to bring them back to a more balanced dog and I have seen some that I think are quite fine...so if the dog is nice and balanced I would not automatically assume it is all bad...and the angulation is not the cause of hip dysplasia-though there are serious arguments between people about pretty side trots and a functionally sound conformation for working. And all the other lines have their own problems. Rank your priorities. FWIW There are lines of Golden Retrievers that are quite agressive as well! Not typical and there are also hunting lines vs show lines in that arena.

In my personal opinion the biggest issue I hear about is nerve strength and no matter what line you will find fearful spooky dogs or dogs that or too reactive to be safe. So it comes down to more about the dogs you are looking at. Just don't worry about color as it is the least consequential of all requirements then figure out what you really want. 

. I think GSD people tend to sometimes be more blunt and less touchy feely than, say, Golden people - something to consider. Could be wrong, but I feel that way. But most of us don't hold grudges. Hope you stay and figure out what you want to do.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Think about the traits you want in a German Shepherd Dog. If you plan to herd sheep, you would need herding instinct and would want to buy a dog from someone who has produced dogs that herd sheep. But if you do not plan to do this, then this is not what you need to look for. 

By what you have written thus far, some traits you might be looking for are:
trainablity
health
ability to live with other critters


And there are others like loyalty, intelligence, courage, etc., that most breeders will definitely list about their dogs. But how do you rate these as a buyer?

I suggest talking with a lot of breeders, listen for stories about their dogs. Look at their accomplishments. Look at their experience. Listen for their knowledge about the breed.

As for the bloodlines, what you describe about a dog doing tracking or agility -- any of the lines can produce a dog that can go out and learn to track or learn to do agility. If you are looking for an agility champion, well maybe a border collie is more your speed. Don't get me wrong, but the courses are just set up for BC size, etc. If this is something you might think is fun to train the dog to do (which it is), then you can train ANY dog, mixed breeds, etc, to do this on a fun level. So do not feel like you have to have a specific line of GSD to be able to train the dog in obedience, agility, etc. 

Be honest and realistic with the breeder on what you are looking for. If you tell them you intend to train the dog for police work, and what you really intend to do is take him out on a couple of weekends and do some schutzhund, you might be matched with a dog with a lot more drive or energy than you need. 

A litter may on the whole be higher drive than another litter depending on lines or the traits of the sire and dam. But within the litter there will also be dogs that are different in energy, drive, pack order, etc. If you provide your breeder with a good understanding of what you are looking for, a good breeder can pick a pup or a couple of pups that would work best for you. 

Good luck in finding a great pup.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> These dogs would often go after porcupines and kept doing it, even though quills were going into their faces!


This is not a trait to any particular breed of dog, any dog will do this - porcupines tend to enrage any dog


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Maxx said:


> I probably can't handle WLs anyway as I'm getting older. I just like what I read, is all.


You can't generalize like that. Each dog is an individual. Even within a litter, you can have many energy levels and personalities.

My dog comes from a litter of WL GSDs-- he was the mellowest one out of 10. One of his brothers was so hyper and bouncy that the breeder said she would never sell him to us. We told her we were looking for a laid back cuddler, and that is exactly what she chose for us. 

Just because a dog is WL doesn't mean he will have too much energy for you to handle. You have to find what you like and a breeder who will match you to the right dog for you.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Sunflowers said:


> You can't generalize like that. Each dog is an individual. Even within a litter, you can have many energy levels and personalities.
> 
> My dog comes from a litter of WL GSDs-- he was the mellowest one out of 10. One of his brothers was so hyper and bouncy that the breeder said she would never sell him to us. We told her we were looking for a laid back cuddler, and that is exactly what she chose for us.
> 
> Just because a dog is WL doesn't mean he will have too much energy for you to handle. You have to find what you like and a breeder who will match you to the right dog for you.


Same here. My Wolfy Dog is out of strong drive WL dogs but he is a mellow guy, even at his age (7 months). But off course, being a GSD, he is active with a good off switch.His litter sister was totally different. His breeder told me that he knew what I was looking for and that WD ws a good pup for me. And he is!! So I have the looks/conformation I love and the temperament I was after. It took me about 20 years to make the leap.
So take your time; it will be worth it.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

wolfy dog said:


> being a GSD, he is active with a good off switch..
> 
> It took me about 20 years to make the leap.


Yup, same here.

And funny, it took me over 20 years to make the leap, as well.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Now children, stop bickering and go play with your dogs


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I think what really got to people is that you generalized so much (that's what people really dislike on this website). The AKC standard is pretty much the SV standard, but the SV tests the temperament of the dogs more than the AKC does. Looks wise the standard is pretty much exactly the same.

I think I've known as many WL dogs with HD as SL dogs with HD...it really all depends on the breeder and how much health testing they do. Hock walking and roached backs (ooooooo the terms that shall not be used) do not cause health problems. They may look weird, but they are not the cause of many health problems. 

It's great that you have an opinion, but you're someone that hasn't dealt with GSDs in ages and you log on and have your first post be about how you think these are better than those. You haven't gone out and seen the actual differences with your eyes, you're just clearly using secondary research. When it comes to these animals, you can read all you want, but until you go to a show, there isn't much you can say that most people on this site haven't already heard or read.

It's when you can bring your own, new, fresh, first person account of the dogs that people really start to take you seriously (and it makes it very difficult to discount that opinion). You can't tell someone they're wrong when they've gone through whatever they're talking about. But you can tell someone they're wrong when all they've done is visited a website.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Maxx, have you considered getting a mature German Shepherd from a rescue group? They could help match you up with a more mature GSD that is settled and would get along with your toy breed. Perhaps a puppy would be too much at this time for your current dog but an older quieter GSD might work out just fine.

This will enable you to get used to having a GSD in your life again at the same time as giving a dog a chance at a loving permanent home.

Then, down the road, you can look into getting a puppy from a good breeder. 

I too had an ASL many many years ago and wanted to have another GSD in my life (addictive little buggers they are). I ended up going through a GSD rescue. We had a senior dog at the time too and were able to pick a rescued male who got along with her.

After she passed away I got my WGSL female and it's worked out really well.

Just some food for thought. 






Maxx said:


> It sounds like they're quite active, indeed! I probably have to wait for a while before I can entertain the idea of getting either WL or SL...any GSD. My toy breed dog is a senior and I am concerned that he won't be very open to another dog especially a big dog. But, my Father got a GR and he lived to 13 and was a decent apartment dog. When he was a teen, a GSD he owned won Best In Show. I read two 'GSDs in apartments? threads and paid close attention because I was thinking it would be hopeless. Contrary to what some ppl here think, I know the exuberance and energy these dogs have. Maybe not WL and it is apparently even greater, usually, so I would have my hands full, 'sound like it. I was glad to come across here to read and learn of people's experiences.
> 
> WL is cheaper usually so that sounded good to me, too. I would not consider such if I thought I could not handle it. Maybe, I'll conclude that, anyway, but I hope not. It sounds like fun to do all that.


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## Maxx (Jun 23, 2012)

I couldn't find very many rescue places for GSDs in my area. Maybe someone in ON would have an idea? From what I found, there wasn't much info... it appeared they mostly listed dogs that were already adopted. I am wondering if some are mixes, too?

Anyway, I was also curious for later on, potential future dogs. 

I was looking for breeder lists that included working lines and it was difficult. 

Since, alas, it probably isn't immediate, I was hesitant to post in some of the interesting 'breeder in Ontario' threads. But, it would be info I'd hope to use in the future. 

Perhaps, I'll jump in whenever (hopefully) look for a puppy.

Your idea was good, btw. My toy breed Pom (although, much bigger than what you'd think) doesn't mind dogs, I think I'd need him to be the alpha male or pack leader. I read someplace that the dog that was originally in the home first should always be treated as pack leader. So, you walk, take out and fuss over the original dog first. I guess this should be posted or asked in another thread? It's a big off topic but I really wish I had a GSD that would have guarded my little guy. I should have socialized him better but I try to get him to 'talk to' dogs when I can. 

He's just really spoiled and one of those dogs who is interested most in his owner(s).


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

Maxx said:


> My toy breed Pom (although, much bigger than what you'd think) doesn't mind dogs, I think I'd need him to be the alpha male or pack leader. I read someplace that the dog that was originally in the home first should always be treated as pack leader. So, you walk, take out and fuss over the original dog first. I guess this should be posted or asked in another thread? It's a big off topic but I really wish I had a GSD that would have guarded my little guy. I should have socialized him better but I try to get him to 'talk to' dogs when I can.


Wrong. You don't let an older resident dog get pushed around by a puppy, but you have nothing to do with how they decide who's top dog. You also don't do any of that original dog first nonsense. You do get to pet who you want, when you want, and the other dog has no say in that, but doing everything first with the original dog is just silly.

Why would another dog guard your Pom? I don't get this at all.

There are a few breeders in Ontario, but a lot of people end up importing their dogs from the midwest states. You can go to the looking for a breeder section of the forum and find some breeders that way.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

There are good breeders in Ontario-you really don't have to import a dog from the United States-there are also good breeders in other areas of Canada as well-there are old threads regarding Ontario breeders


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Truth is (whether it's hard to accept or not) there are a LOT of breeders who are not breeding to the standard. Breeding for color, conformation, Schutz., size, etc. seems to have take over instead of breeding for what the standard calls for. There are many ways to 'test' a parent's worthiness without titles. Some people choose to bypass the political implications which take away from the sport. Does not mean they aren't testing their dogs..or that they are unworthy. Why challenging someone's perception of SL dogs results in such an uproar is beyond me. It's known that some German imports have titles they shouldn't really have... they were driven by compulsion or other means until they achieved a title. If you want to know the 'truth' of the parents, then you have to dig. You have to actually talk to breeders (forearmed with knowledge) and look for referrals from others who have dogs not only from that kennel but maybe from that specific pairing, too. 

Breeding goes well beyond taking two dogs with titles and breeding them. Been there, done that. Going on kijiji to find a dog is going to land you with a sub-standard pup. Start researching breeders. Just going to a Schutz. club isn't going to tell you all you need to know. I've seen dogs at Schutz. trials who were dog aggressive, people aggressive... no where near the breed standard. You want to do more checking than if you were going to adopt a child. You'll need help reading pedigrees and knowing if a certain pairing is going to produce pups within that standard. There are those here that can help you do that. Good luck on your search!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Your wise beyond your years!


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

When I started my search I did look for rescue groups but didn't find any that were still active. You can just try local rescues and let them know you're looking for a GSD and they'll contact you if one comes in

Otherwise there are good breeders in Ontario or Canada for that manner. Sunflowers has already mentioned Narnia which was on my short list though it's in NB, for inside Ontario contact Carmen (carmspack on this board) or I got my WL from Stalworth Kennels. Both are excellent breeders and even if they don't have any dogs available will point you in a good direction

My WL lives with three cats and two dogs under 11 lbs quite peacefully, it can be done with a little training


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Maxx said:


> I couldn't find very many rescue places for GSDs in my area. Maybe someone in ON would have an idea? From what I found, there wasn't much info... it appeared they mostly listed dogs that were already adopted. I am wondering if some are mixes, too?
> 
> Anyway, I was also curious for later on, potential future dogs.
> 
> I was looking for breeder lists that included working lines and it was difficult.


You are in Ontario? You are close to Carmspack and she is a member on this forum. Talk to her, she will be able to help. She breeds working line GSDs.


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## Maxx (Jun 23, 2012)

Yep. There's so many breeders with dogs that have backs which are sloping quite a bit. I am not sure how to tell, I guess. I've googled and checked google images for pictures and many seem to show there's not much angulation (for WL dogs) even when they're posing and have a leg back. 

Examples:

German Shepherd Puppies For Sale, Imported Czech Border Patrol Lines, from RuffGSD.

SG Arras van't Leefdaalhof - German Shepherd Dog

Just a tad, there. 

The Carmspack dogs look really good! I read of those GSD fans who favor 'straight backs.' Is that what it means? When it's not a SL dog, they are likely not to have the sloping or roached backs? I don't like the look of it. 

I should convert some of our photo album pics with our GSD male.  I am not sure but I don't think it was that bad. I know he was from West German lines and from SLs, I believe, but I don't think his back was as sloping as some even if you got him to pose. 

I still think that the WL will have less hip problems but if that's not true, I still like the look of WL better. I also like that the Carmpack dogs look to have a variety of colors. It's not nearly as important but I like the 'bi-colour', 'blanket-black' (or whatever it's called) and even dark sable. 

I didn't know about all this before. I was so used to seeing SL with the standard 'saddle' look.  

It's good if there's a few WL breeders around.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Maxx said:


> Yep. There's so many breeders with dogs that have backs which are sloping quite a bit. I am not sure how to tell, I guess. I've googled and checked google images for pictures and many seem to show there's not much angulation (for WL dogs) even when they're posing and have a leg back.


The "sloped" appearance to the back actually has nothing to do with the back, it is caused by angulation in the rear legs (and also has nothing to do with hip dysplasia as many people think). When one leg is pulled back in the show stack, it causes the rear end to appear lower than the front end. This is particularly evident in American show lines. So when people refer to a "straight back", it's actually a misnomer. What they really mean is that the dog lacks angulation in the rear.



> I still think that the WL will have less hip problems but if that's not true, I still like the look of WL better. I also like that the Carmpack dogs look to have a variety of colors. It's not nearly as important but I like the 'bi-colour', 'blanket-black' (or whatever it's called) and even dark sable.


I am not sure if there are any hip statistics on working line dogs as opposed to show lines. As far as I know, it occurs at essentially the same rate among all lines (unless you're counting BYB "pet" lines who are not x-rayed prior to breeding). 

I too like to see all colors of GSD. Working lines and, somewhat surprisingly, American show lines show the most variety in terms of color and pattern.

You are incredibly lucky to be close to Carmspack; her dogs are actually working in law enforcement, SAR, etc. She is one of a handful of breeders who selects for solid nerve, correct temperament, and true working ability beyond the sport field. From what she says, such dogs also make good family companions as they posess an "off" switch when not working. If half of what she says about her dogs is true, I would kill or die for one of them, for when I am ready for another dog.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Maxx said:


> Is that the correct term? Working line vs work line?
> 
> Anyway, after just a few minutes reading / researching this, I came to the conclusion that I'd be most interested in a working line GSD.
> 
> ...


Maxx, look at these dogs and choose one of their breedings. You can't go wrong, these are the best of the best. 
Leistung


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## Maxx (Jun 23, 2012)

Packen said:


> Maxx, look at these dogs and choose one of their breedings. You can't go wrong, these are the best of the best.
> Leistung


Mein Deutsch ist nicht besonders gut.


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## scuba_bob (May 5, 2008)

Max 

I have a dog from Carmspark lines although not direct from her kennel she recommended me to a breeder in BC, my dogs dad was a dog from Carmspark breeding and I'm really happy with him amazing temperament, beautiful looks, healthy, and everyone thinks he a cop dog haha. It's pretty impressive although I didn't socialize him a lot he is still very friendly with people and other dogs, very dependable.

Carmen was a huge help in helping me find this pup and helped with some questions after I got him, I know I'll buy a gsd from her down the road, you want a very nice and healthy working line gsd and you live in Ontario? Then I really think its a no brainier to get a pup from her and you'll get one of the best breeder after care support you can find.

I know I have nothing but great things to say about Carmen at Carmspark kennels and Ruth Yeulett from Shannon lake kennels.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

well I don't just breed working line dogs I breed working dogs -- a fine point but a very important one. 
Colour is never a consideration. Strong natural health and longevity , very important. Hips very important as this is the first hurdle to jump when it comes to even being considered for a life of work.
I believe Scuba bobs dog is a Bugati son, well I just brought in a Bugati son - solid black out of Brandi Geefacker -- just love this dog http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/bloodlines-pedigrees/177660-geefacker-any-ideas-mrs-k-2.html

here is one of my latest pups from a June 2012 litter Nickolas -- this is just the way the dogs are All Things "Dog": September 2012
Here is Sue Coutts blog - who has Carmspack Trust Urban Tracking Dog Excellent (among other titles) , Carmspack Blast TDX Urban Track (UTD) , and Carmspack Kira - just beginning her trialing after having spent a year in prep for bed-bug detection . http://birchbarkhill.blogspot.ca/

ScubaBob you need to send me a good picture of your dog !

Carmen
http://www.carmspack.com


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Maxx said:


> Mein Deutsch ist nicht besonders gut.


Better than mine


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## Maxx (Jun 23, 2012)

carmspack said:


> well I don't just breed working line dogs I breed working dogs -- a fine point but a very important one.
> Colour is never a consideration. Strong natural health and longevity , very important. Hips very important as this is the first hurdle to jump when it comes to even being considered for a life of work.
> I believe Scuba bobs dog is a Bugati son, well I just brought in a Bugati son - solid black out of Brandi Geefacker -- just love this dog http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/bloodlines-pedigrees/177660-geefacker-any-ideas-mrs-k-2.html
> 
> ...


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Maxx said:


> But, I don't know where people in Ontario find them. So far, not much luck.


Carmspack is right there.  When you are ready for a dog, she will not steer you wrong.


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## Maxx (Jun 23, 2012)

Freestep said:


> Carmspack is right there.  When you are ready for a dog, she will not steer you wrong.


Why can't I edit my post? Anyway, I got the breeder name mixed up with a similar-sounding one and then realized.... lol

Then the edit got messed up. 

Anyway, yes, it's a bit far (from me) but is very impressive. I hope I am not too much of a bother when I am able to look for a dog.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

where do you live Maxx and why are you having such a hard time finding a dog?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Maxx, go to the German Shepherd Schutzhund Club of Canada website:

The German Shepherd Schutzhund Club of Canada

Then click on "Regions and Clubs" and select "Ontario Region"

http://www.gsscc.ca/regions-and-clubs/ontario.aspx

You will get about a dozen clubs listed. Contact the clubs that are in your area and ask for working dog breeder recommendations. Though as you have found out, good working dog breeders are not that common, and most people will travel to get their dog, or get it shipped in, but Ontario should have enough breeders and activity for you to find something more local.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Maxx said:


> It can be really confusing but I prefer a WL GSD since any puppy or dog from a reputable breeder will cost me $1000+ and I just prefer it.
> 
> The more I think about it, I read that you can find one with an 'off' switch so whatever that is, it sounds interesting. But, I would like a dog for protection or at least, a good guard dog. I live in an apt. and although it's ok, I think it's a bonus if the dog is smart and trained enough to be a good watch dog but without the nerves.


on the first point, nothing wrong with getting a dog that meets your preferences! You just have to find a breeder who has dogs that you like and who is also responsible. Now, if you are super detailed about what you want, then it might be a longer wait. But just wanting a healthy dog of a certain type should be easy to find from any good breeder!

on the second point, an "off switch" usually just means that the dog will settle down. There are some breeders who (incorrectly in my opinion) have pushed the limits on their dogs and are producing animals that are constantly on the go. If they aren't actively doing a job, they are pacing or spinning or just basically over the top with energy. (of course GSD puppies always seem that way! lol) A dog should be able to settle down and be a normal part of the family - that is an off switch.
Of course, you have the other extreme where people are breeding super-mellow couch potatoes. Some of them I'd say don't have an "on" switch


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## Maxx (Jun 23, 2012)

*Adult - cost and location?*

Can I bump this?

I know, I'd inquire about Carmen's dogs if I was buying one for certain or if I'm buying a puppy. I visited her page (before) and they look and sound ideal. I would like to see about getting a puppy in the future. I'm just not sure how things would be with a senior Pom in my place. Would he have the patience?  

But, I was wondering about cost and I thought I'd inquire about adult dogs. If I get an adult dog, I'd prefer one from a breeder and not from BYB or kijiji 'sellers.' Know what I mean? It would be nice to have papers and be able to trace the dog back not to mention know that hips/back/elbows/ (eyes, too?) etc. were checked and the dog has a high probability for continued health provided nutrition and everything else is provided for.

But, are these dogs going to be over $1K? I read a thread on some dogs from good breeding programs going to 'permanent' homes but some people don't like the fact their dog was spayed or neutered. I am not looking to breed the dog nor would my Dad so that wouldn't be a factor for me. Even if I thought a puppy was very exceptional, I would not do anything unless the breeder okay'ed it with a contract or whatever the procedure is. I agree with being responsible.

Anyway, I was just wondering what one does if looking for an adult from a breeder and what the cost usually is. Most of the info is about puppies and the locations are usually very far from me. So, unless one is looking for a puppy, it seems like there are few opportunities to get a dog from a reputable breeder.

I'm just inquring. I am looking at Retrievers, too, since GSDs are hard to come by. The Rescue places look like they are GSD mixes and little info is provided. 

Any thoughts?


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Adult or older puppies (depending on the level of training) can be more expensive because the breeder has put more money and effort into them. Then again you get the benefit in a adult of seeing the complete dog with little to no surprises as to health or temperament...

There are good points to both for sure


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## Maxx (Jun 23, 2012)

Shade said:


> Adult or older puppies (depending on the level of training) can be more expensive because the breeder has put more money and effort into them. Then again you get the benefit in a adult of seeing the complete dog with little to no surprises as to health or temperament...
> 
> There are good points to both for sure


Yeah, just read that including the older pup or adult possibly (or probably?) being more expensive. So, that crosses out that advantage. 

I guess being able to bond and decide on your dog's care and training is good when you acquire a puppy but having a good idea of where you stand with the dog as an adult are two obvious pros respectively.  

Maybe, I should just wait until I can get a pup and look for the GR since it seems there are more available or at least, it seems so. I mean, I don't have to scrutinize as much when looking for the 'ideal' dog for temperament. 'Hard to explain. :-/


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

A GR is a completely 100% different dog than a GSD. They are not without their own set of health and temperament issues (including, believe it or not, some lines with serious aggression issues). They also have show and "field" lines.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

oh yes you do ! " I mean, I don't have to scrutinize as much when looking for the 'ideal' dog for temperament. "

Also be prepared Golden Retrievers are high on the list for breeds dealing with risk for cancer. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704342604575222062208235690.html

http://kikoshouse.blogspot.ca/2010/07/epidemic-of-cancers-in-golden.html

thanks to the supplements I get to meet and hear from owners heart broken by their loved canines fight with cancer --- very very sad


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## Maxx (Jun 23, 2012)

jocoyn said:


> A GR is a completely 100% different dog than a GSD. They are not without their own set of health and temperament issues (including, believe it or not, some lines with serious aggression issues). They also have show and "field" lines.


Yep, I know. I guess I worded it in an unintentional way. I found it easier to find GR breeders that had good reps and a few were nearby. On kijiji, there were a few cases in which the adult dog available had papers and was purebred. 

For GSDs, I only find Carmspack as a breeder to be interested in, in Ontario. 



carmspack said:


> oh yes you do ! " I mean, I don't have to scrutinize as much when looking for the 'ideal' dog for temperament. "
> 
> Also be prepared Golden Retrievers are high on the list for breeds dealing with risk for cancer. The Cancer Risk for Purebred Dogs - WSJ.com
> 
> ...


Right. My Dad's GR got cancer.

I am just wondering how much GSD pups would cost. WL, that is. 

It would be good to know for future plans. 

My Dad wants a GR but for me, I like both breeds but I was pleased to read the threads (I think there's at least two) of the question of whether GSDs can do okay in apartments.


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## KB007 (Aug 27, 2003)

I paid 1100 for mine, working lines, plus shipping. When I was researching I found the price range from reputable, respected, and recommended breeders to fall between 1,000-1800.


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## Maxx (Jun 23, 2012)

KB007 said:


> I paid 1100 for mine, working lines, plus shipping. When I was researching I found the price range from reputable, respected, and recommended breeders to fall between 1,000-1800.


Thanks.

I'm going to send some emails, too. I guess the breeder's comments were removed. That was a bit far. I don't know anything about the scenarios in which dogs/pups are shipped.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

WL's usually run 12 -1800 for puppies, some may be a little higher, some may be lower.

I wouldn't discount an adult dog..Some breeders may have adult/older dogs that they just wish to place in a home or sell cheaply in order for them to retire to a good home.

How about a rescue?? It sounds like you don't want to ship?


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