# Punishment in Today's Dog Training (Agility Only? or not?)



## MaggieRoseLee

Agility has to be fun, fun for us, fun for the dog. Otherwise, sniffing, slowing and avoidance along with all the other 'calming signals' rear their ugly head.

Great info to read from Susan Garrett:

http://www.agilityaddicts.net/agilityforum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=16240&start=30&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

You can give the dog info that they need to guess again and weren't right by using a 'non reward maker' NRM. This is NOT the word 'no'. 

http://susangarrettdogagility.com/2011/02/punishment-in-todays-dog-training/

http://susangarrettdogagility.com/2011/02/what-is-ideal-meaning-of-a-nrm/

http://susangarrettdogagility.com/2010/07/planning-to-fail-is-the-path-to-success/

How are people's experiences in their dog classes? Positive based or not so much?


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## Emoore

So what's the difference between a correction and a punishment? If Kopper bites Rocky on the tail and Rocky growls and puts Kopper's whole head in his mouth, is that correction or punishment? (I would consider having my head in Rocky's mouth punishment) Is it ok because a dog did it and it's ok for dogs to correct/punish another dog? Or should I punish the older dog for punishing the puppy? Wait a minute. . . .


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## MaggieRoseLee

Think the point of view is more with the human/dog relationship during 'training' rather than in general life skills. 

Agressions and inappropriate behaviors may need a bit more intervention from our part as well as another dog. Though, truthfully, if my dogs respect me and know I don't put up with over the top agression, MY DOGS won't start it. Though I use management and vigilance when my dogs are together to head off issues before they get to the level that strong action needs to be taken.


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## codmaster

Emoore said:


> So what's the difference between a correction and a punishment? If Kopper bites Rocky on the tail and Rocky growls and puts Kopper's whole head in his mouth, is that correction or punishment? (I would consider having my head in Rocky's mouth punishment) Is it ok because a dog did it and it's ok for dogs to correct/punish another dog? Or should I punish the older dog for punishing the puppy? Wait a minute. . . .


A very good question - what is the difference between punishment and correction?

Maybe the distinction is simply in the eye of the beholder? And your viewpoint?


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## MaggieRoseLee

codmaster said:


> A very good question - what is the difference between punishment and correction?
> 
> *Maybe the distinction is simply in the eye of the beholder? And your viewpoint?[/*QUOTE]
> 
> It would be a big help if you'd read some of the articles posted.
> 
> Both punishments and corrections will be avoided by dogs, and depending on the level used can end up with dogs shutting down and avoiding IN TRAINING.
> 
> I put this out for more in a *training* type of situation. Where we want our dogs to engage and want to learn with us. Exactly why everyone is confused is exactly why we have so many confused dogs that hate training with us, or learn really slowly causing alot of frustration for all.
> 
> Learning the difference and rarely using punishments/corrections in TRAINING is key.


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## lanaw13

It would be a big help if you'd read some of the articles posted.

.[/QUOTE]

Can you post a link please?


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## codmaster

MaggieRoseLee said:


> codmaster said:
> 
> 
> 
> A very good question - what is the difference between punishment and correction?
> 
> *Maybe the distinction is simply in the eye of the beholder? And your viewpoint?[/*QUOTE]
> 
> *It would be a big help if you'd read some of the articles posted. My deepest apologies to you!*
> 
> *Just a question, though (if you don't mind, of course!!!) - A big help to who? You? Me? An anonymous reader of your post? ??????*
> 
> Both punishments and corrections will be avoided by dogs, and depending on the level used can end up with dogs shutting down and avoiding IN TRAINING.
> 
> I put this out for more in a *training* type of situation. Where we want our dogs to engage and want to learn with us.
> 
> 
> 
> Gee, I am really sorry - do you mean that I should read YOUR articles before posting anything? Do you mean that just for me, or do you mean everyone who responds and posts any message on this forum?
> 
> With all of that - I guess that you just forgot to answer the question, perhaps? Or maybe you answered it in one of the mysterious "articles" that I failed to read.
> 
> Just in case anyone else also forgot to read those "articles" - could you try to answer the question that elicited such an emotional response from you?
> 
> "what is the difference between punishment and correction?"
> 
> Please feel free to ignore my question again if you choose, of course, if you do decide to respond to this post.
> 
> I hope that it doesn't upset you more but i did have a question on what you meant by the following - "......dogs shutting down and avoiding IN TRAINING."
> Just what are the dogs avoiding? I couldn't figure out what you meant by "IN TRAINING".
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> BTW, I happen to think of the distinction as one of degree and really don't see any difference in reality except for the connotation that a "punishment" is much harsher and bad for the dog and is often a term used by some dog trainers sometimes to refer to any type of correction given to a dog from a harsh leash correction all the way to even a verbal utterance like "No!".
Click to expand...


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## gsdraven

lanaw13 said:


> It would be a big help if you'd read some of the articles posted.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can you post a link please?
Click to expand...

To the articles mentioned? They are in the first post of this thread.


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## gsdraven

codmaster said:


> Gee, I am really sorry - do you mean that I should read YOUR articles before posting anything? Do you mean that just for me, or do you mean everyone who responds and posts any message on this forum?


MRL posted this thread with several articles related to punishment/corrections in terms of agility training (this thread is in the agility forum in case you didn't notice) so, yes, reading the articles posted would help you to understand and participate in this particular discussion.


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## lanaw13

my apologies, for some reason my mind read that wrong..... i was looking for a sticky


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## Cassidy's Mom

gsdraven said:


> MRL posted this thread with several articles related to punishment/corrections in terms of agility training (this thread is in the agility forum in case you didn't notice) so, yes, reading the articles posted would help you to understand and participate in this particular discussion.


Yeah, I thought that was kinda the point of this thread - to comment on the articles that she linked to.


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## Emoore

I did read the articles posted. In the first article, she specifically mentions people correcting their dog for urinating indoors and for chewing on items. That's why I originally though we were speaking of corrections in general, not just in training.

As far as training goes, I agree that corrections/punishments shouldn't be used when training a behavior, whether it be teaching a puppy to sit or teaching an agility dog weave poles. I agree with the non-reward marker which isn't so much a correction as a "sorry please try again" but think that corrections and punishment can dampen the enthusiasm for learning new things.


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## wildo

I read all four articles (the first was not an article). Actually, I have no idea what the intent was with the first link. It seems it is a post from a person with a very extreme perspective. They basically state that all "punishment" (not any of the articles seemed to define the difference between punishment and correction as far as I could tell, BTW) is about the worst thing you could possible do, ensuring that your dog will 100% of the time misinterpret the punishment. I feel this is unfounded, and ultimately unprovable. Generally speaking- absolute extreme perspectives on subjective ideas are almost always dismissible as nothing more than simple conjecture.


As to the Susan Garrett articles, well- admittedly, I got little from them. I feel she has said a lot without saying anything at all. I mean- what exactly _is_ she saying? I feel she is making the claim that your dog should understand a NRM so intently that it wants to immediately try the task again to attempt to receive a reward marker. If I am understanding her correct- the way to accomplish this is basically to work solely in an environment where you 100% control the reward stimulus. This way when you give the NRM, the dog has no choice- has absolutely no opportunity- to "steal" reward. This seems like a fantasy to me. If the dog finds reward in a victory lap, you cannot eliminate this. You can make the room as small as you want, but ultimately you cannot 100% deny the dog from "stealing" reward.

Let's take this simple example:
* You 100% control reward by working in a very, very small enclosed room, with nothing but walls, carpet, you (with your treat pouch), the dog, and a set of weave poles.
* You send the dog and he enters improperly.
* You give the NRM, and the dog runs off to a corner...

At this point, the dog has already stolen reward since he still had more choices than to *only* run back to you to try again... I mean, the idea falls apart pretty much immediately... You cannot work in a room that is so small that the dog has "no opportunity" to "steal" reward.

I think ultimately, you can only strive to try to get to this point by ensuring your reward stimulus is a higher value than any other stimulus in the room. Even then, when you give the NRM, you are asserting a negative punishment by not supplying the high-value reward.

It just isn't possible to work 100% positive reenforcement. I think when it comes down to it, we just strive to be as positive as possible, and allow our dogs to have a good time. I find that negative punishment techniques (something like Ivan B's "The Game") to be ultimately the most effective for my dog. She gets lots of positive praise, treats, encouragement, etc, etc for doing things right. When she does something wrong, she gets a NRM and is not provided a reward- effectively negative punishment. (Well, if she is being increasingly difficult- I still incidentally fall back to positive punishment techniques. It is engrained in my upbringing, and I am working to overcome this. We NEVER use positive punishment in Agility training!)


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## MaggieRoseLee

Wildo, thanks for reading the links posted and commenting... THAT'S what I why I posted them. For us to read them, think about them, compare our training methods and comment.

Maybe even learn something new


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## wildo

I will add that it isn't that I didn't get anything out of the SG links, it's just that I didn't enjoy them being so open ended. I felt that she was trying to make a point about how to accomplish a behavior, but left us hanging on actually providing some training techniques.

As a matter of pure observation/learning- I find it totally remarkable that her dogs could understand a NRM to the point where they immediately stop what they are doing and return for a second chance. Some people find it difficult to train their dog to sit immediately when given a "sit" command. It's funny because training "sit" is a situation where you have all the tools in the world to help you accomplish such a task! But Susan is referring to a situation where the positive reinforcement is so incredibly strong that a NRM (which is negative punishment) invokes a reaction in the dog with such haste that it is setup for a second go in no time... That really is something remarkable! I wish she would have given some concrete examples of how to accomplish this. 

To the point of the thread, I've seen *MASSIVELY HUGE* improvements in Pimg's drive and desire to work by switching to primarily positive reinforcements, and we continue to use those with negative punishment in Agility class. (It should be obvious I am referring to constructs of the Operant Conditioning theory, by the way.) But just because we aren't doing positive punishment; collar corrections, or verbal corrections, doesn't mean we are simply not using punishment/corrections.

I don't know if I saw you say it or not, MRL, but Agility should be a game. All games have rules and structure- but that doesn't make them any less fun. We get excited from playing the game, and as long as we stick to the confines of the rules- we're rewarded with entertainment. The same can be true for our dogs. They should feel that as soon as they step on that astroturf, the game is on- and that is crazy exciting. I would hope that it is obvious that using positive punishment techniques (I would TOTALLY include penalty walks in this!) would degrade the quality of the game, and therefore should be avoided.

I see in class many times when owners continually back their dogs up to retry a jump or to resend to a tunnel or whatever. I don't see how this is any different from a penalty walk, and I personally think it should be avoided.


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## codmaster

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Wildo, thanks for reading the links posted and commenting... THAT'S what I why I posted them. For us to read them, think about them, compare our training methods and comment.
> 
> Maybe even learn something new


 
I read the first one, and I didn't see anything in it that even tried to distinguish between "corrections" and "punishment' - which if you remember was the question that I posed that got you so upset and asked me to "read the articles". 

Maybe I just missed it in this article so just in case, could you point out where this distinction was covered in the article?

In fact, the first reference seemed to be a very emotional plea to never "punish" a poor dog no matter what they did. Seemed that even just using one's voice was frowned on by the auther. Didn't even really define "punish" as far as I could tell.

Wonder if the dog does something bad, and you catch them in the very act of doing it; what the author would want one to do?

Nothing? Just ignore the bad behavior and just hope the dog will stop doing it by itself?

What if the bad thing that the dog is doing is attacking another dog or barking very aggressively at a person??? What should one do then at the very moment?

With this approach, how would the dog even know that it was exhibiting a "bad" unwanted behavior?


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## codmaster

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Agility has to be fun, fun for us, fun for the dog. Otherwise, sniffing, slowing and avoidance along with all the other 'calming signals' rear their ugly head.
> 
> Great info to read from Susan Garrett:
> 
> http://www.agilityaddicts.net/agilityforum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=16240&start=30&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
> 
> You can give the dog info that they need to guess again and weren't right by using a 'non reward maker' NRM. This is NOT the word 'no'.
> 
> http://susangarrettdogagility.com/2011/02/punishment-in-todays-dog-training/
> 
> http://susangarrettdogagility.com/2011/02/what-is-ideal-meaning-of-a-nrm/
> 
> http://susangarrettdogagility.com/2010/07/planning-to-fail-is-the-path-to-success/
> 
> How are people's experiences in their dog classes? Positive based or not so much?


 
Ok I now can say that I read all of the articles.

Could be that the approach the author is obviously very taken with would work very well in Agility (the training area that seems to be the topic of the articles). Don't know as I am not very familiar with training in Agility. 

But i didn't see anything that the author discussed that would answer the question posed about the difference between a "correction" and 'punishment'. 

Again I will ask - if I missed where the author of these articles explained and differentiated between these two things; I would very happy if someone could please point it out to me.

Was I wrong in making an assumption that the author seemed to feel that ANY correction of any sort would be treated as a nasty "punishment"?

With the approach of the author, I could see a behavior of a dog that one doesn't want, i.e. counter surfing, that is self rewarding to a dog doing it. If we do not "correct" a dog by making it plain to him that this behavior is not acceptable, why would he ever stop doing it? The "reward" for the dog is self accualizing (they do not need any "reward" from the owner to reinforce it as it is self rewarding!); so it will continue, wouldn't it?

Just a thought or two?


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## TaraM1285

wildo said:


> ]I felt that she was trying to make a point about how to accomplish a behavior, but left us hanging on actually providing some training techniques.
> 
> As a matter of pure observation/learning- I find it totally remarkable that her dogs could understand a NRM to the point where they immediately stop what they are doing and return for a second chance.
> 
> ...
> 
> But Susan is referring to a situation where the positive reinforcement is so incredibly strong that a NRM (which is negative punishment) invokes a reaction in the dog with such haste that it is setup for a second go in no time... That really is something remarkable! I wish she would have given some concrete examples of how to accomplish this.


When I use a NRM in weaving or during shaping (which I try not to do, but they slip out anyways), I don't expect that my dog will run off and find reinforcement somewhere else. I expect that she will continue working for me and try something different. The value of working with me and training with me is high enough that she knows that's where the good stuff is. 

An earlier article in Susan's series on NRMs gives an example of breaking down the behavior into such small steps that the value for the correct behavior is so high that a NRM does give the required feedback. 

Non Reward Markers: Reducing the Use | Susan Garrett's Dog Training Blog

I think a good example in agility training is going back to the weave poles. Specifically, in SG's 2x2 weaving method, the dog really has no opportunity to be wrong and need a NRM. First, the dog just has to interact with the poles by passing between them. Next, you shape for an entry - no need for a NRM, you just only reward the acceptable direction and establish that by rewarding along a specific line. By the time the dog is weaving a full set, there is so much value for doing it correctly that a NRM gives immediate feedback. From the few dogs that I've seen trained this way, thinking dogs will hesitate to consider the NRM. They're not going out and seeking reinforcement elsewhere.

In another SG article, she gives another example of a NRM and the negative punishment used in proofing a behavior.

Testing Feature | Susan Garrett's Dog Training Blog

I think it's important to note that the tools she uses in this example (collar grab and crating) may be positive punishers for some dogs. I think in her case, though, she takes a gamble that Feature has enough reinforcement built in a collar grab and in playing crate games that neither of these things are particularly aversive to this dog.

For the record, I try to use only positive reinforcement and negative punishment in agility. I don't think positive punishment is necessary for the agility ring, but I have found myself reverting to it in some ways. My dog finds a collar grab mildly aversive, but I have had a tough time breaking the habit.

As far as punishments versus corrections go, punishment has a scientific definition that is something that decreases the chance of a behavior occurring. A correction is something aversive that is used to fix a behavior - turn the wrong behavior into the right one. So, in my mind, a correction could be either positive punishment or negative punishment. I don't think that my understanding is consistent with what people, in general (not just dog trainers), think of when they think of punishment vs. correction. I think punishment has a much more extreme connotation, maybe even to the point of indicating cruelty, whereas correction has a slightly gentler connotation (e.g. a teacher "correcting" a paper).

By the way, I read the first few pages of the thread in the first link, but I didn't make it through all 9 pages, so if I missed something, my apologies.


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## MaggieRoseLee

Tara1825, thanks for your post and the additional links, hopefully that will add to the discussion.

*Wildo's*



> As a matter of pure observation/learning- *I find it totally remarkable that her dogs could understand a NRM to the point where they immediately stop what they are doing and return for a second chance. *Some people find it difficult to train their dog to sit immediately when given a "sit" command. It's funny because training "sit" is a situation where you have all the tools in the world to help you accomplish such a task! But Susan is referring to a situation where the positive reinforcement is so incredibly strong that a NRM (which is negative punishment) invokes a reaction in the dog with such haste that it is setup for a second go in no time... That really is something remarkable! I wish she would have given some concrete examples of how to accomplish this.


My dog's do this in agility all the time, and I would hope obedience could have it too. My dog takes an off course tunnel, pops out and sees I'm still way back there and will tear back to see what the problem it to fix and so we can go on! For Bretta (my older dog) the coming back is kind of a 'oops try again' that she does at top speed. And the looking to me to then help 'fix' it (or not if I'm still a loser with the information) is her second (or 3rd if I'm really bad) chance. 

Watch this video, at about 37 sec it all went into the crapper and our run gets disqualified cause she enters the poles in the wrong place. Look at me (she knows something happens) and look at her attitude as she tries to fix it (twice). No punishment, no 'correction' but I marked what was going on to her and she IMMEDIATELY started working out how to fix it (but being high drive wanting to GO more than THINK caused the issue). When it was fixed, then we moved on, which is her reward.





 
This is a great video showing my agility instructor doing a demo with her dog to teach US how to move on with our dogs to get them to 'weave'. Up to this point we only practiced the proper entries (dog going into weaves with first pole on their left shoulder no matter what their angle) and had NOT continued on. Look how the dogs learn and listen to what the instructor is saying. Watch how both the older dog and my Glory keep trying over and over to figure out what we handlers are trying to get them to do. This may answer some of *Wildos*:



> That really is something remarkable! I wish she would have given some *concrete examples of how to accomplish this*.


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## wildo

Wow- great replies from both of you! Thanks Tara for the extra links, and MRL for the videos. Very helpful- as always.


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## Samba

How would agility training be any dfferent from other dog training? I have never understood differences in venues...it is all dog training to me. Why would any techniques used be different in effect because it is agility?


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## codmaster

I think it would be a little different in that Agility to me is more like teaching a dog some tricks as opposed to say a sit or a down or a stay. little easier to make a dog do these than it might be to shake or roll over for example. Easier to *force* the stay rather than the running through a tunnel I would think.

just a thought!


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## Achielles UD

On punishment vs correction:

To me punishment is doing something the dog doesn't like and offends them without giving them information. Think along the lines of new owner comes home to find puppy has soiled the floor and ripped up the sofa cushions, strung out the trash and chewed on the wall. Owner is so angry they "spank" the puppy, collar correct the puppy, yell/cuss/scream at puppy and throw it in a crate. That is punishment. The poor pup has no idea why on earth owner did unpleasant things to her.

Corrections were explained the best (IMHO) by Connie Cleveland. Corrections give the dog information. Each correction is taught to the dog so they know how to stop a correction and how to avoid a correction. It is offensive enough to have the dog not want it again, but the dog understands how to avoid and stop it in the instance it is justified.

In the puppy example I gave, there, in my view, is no correction available to give. So ignoring it, supervision and management next time are the only choices besides punishment. However in a training scenario, corrections would be simple. I have lured, C/R and shaped a sit. The dog fully understands "Sit" means put your rear on the ground when there are no/few distractions. So when a distraction is introduced, I say "Sit" and puppy fails to sit, I teach a correction for not sitting, a pop straight up with the leash (once!) then show what I wanted (lure into sit) praise and release and repeat. I teach the dog/puppy what is expected for corrections and how to stop and avoid them.

Now, since this seems to strictly be an agility question, I am not sure where to go with it. I don't see anything wrong with adding some sort of correction or at the least a NRM. I use the NRM in teaching agility mainly because it is always with me... and btw I use "NO" as a NRM and have no fall out from it. It is just a word.. why would you say not to use "No"? Anyway, I don't use leash corrections mainly because I am not using a leash in agility. 

Corrections regardless of venue are not meant to terrify or bully your dog into doing what you ask, but to give information as to what is correct and what is not. A dog will learn much faster if told when they are not correct as well as when they are....

In the end... dog training is dog training.


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## Samba

I can force a dog through a tunnel.... not that I am going to do that. I don't force sits either or any other behavior that I am training. Maybe I think it is all the same still. Behaviors... not tricks. Though, tricks are behaviors they just are not sanctioned in any competition really.. yet! 

Bad training won't serve a person or dog well in any venue. Maybe, sometimes, people are talking about bad training rather than a particular venue. I see this get confused a lot.


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## MaggieRoseLee

More good posts, thanks...


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## GermanShepherd<3

Not just agility, but other dog sports as well (even basic house manners) still involve force methods. Why? Because yes positive reinforcement does take longer results sometimes, but in the end more PRODUCTIVE results. 
I've seen dogs being pushed on equipment full of fear and resistance towards agility, when it could of been much simpler and better to shape the dog or lure or wait at the end of the obstacle at its own pace. That dog is pretty much ruined to ever compete with good results in agility. Or have you ever seen the dogs on choke chains dragged around the agility course, with the poor dog not even knowing what a jump or tunnel is, let along dragged on an A frame. <--- this was on puppies too! 
I have seen dogs pushed towards the flyball box during their first lesson, that dog was so scared to go to class or be around a fly box. 
Or on the street a dog is expected to be magical without training, and is forced into sits and downs, dragged by the leash..
And i think the worst force I have seen is in Sch. 
Force methods are everywhere..but luckily more and more positive reinforcement methods are becoming known. Awareness should be spread whenever possible! 
Good luck to everyone in agility and other things you are involved in. I can't to one day have my dream shepherd to give actual first hand advice!


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## Rerun

German shepherd, you stated in another post that you were 16 and hadn't had a GSD. In what capacity have you been involved in agility, flyball, schutzhund training, etc? I'm not talking about what you've seen on youtube.


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## codmaster

Positive only methods are great when they work but I do believe that this method only will not work for some dogs and some people.

All good trainers will use methods and techniques appropriate to the individual dog and what is being taught.

Reward only methods will not work when the behavior of the dog is self rewarding to the dog - if the dog decides that it would rather do the alternative behavior than what you want him/her to do.


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## Lin

Samba said:


> How would agility training be any dfferent from other dog training? I have never understood differences in venues...it is all dog training to me. Why would any techniques used be different in effect because it is agility?


Corrections can sometimes make a dog worried and shut down, and afraid to offer behaviors for fear of offering the wrong one. 

In agility you're asking the dog to do some awfully strange things. And as I understand it, the fastest way to get there is shaping with positive reinforcement. I have a service dog, and in teaching service tasks using a clicker with positive reinforcement is WONDERFUL. Tessa frequently shuts down when I try to teach her new things, she had too much correction based training in the past and doesn't want to offer behaviors on her own. This makes trying to teach a new service task MUCH harder! I know with Emma I want to preserve that enthusiasm for offering behaviors until you found the right one. 

Thats my take from much of this thread...


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## codmaster

I would suspect that many, if not most, service dogs would have a much more biddable and softer personality than many other high drive pushy dominant dogs. thus these dogs would probably be much more amenable to a PO training approach. Don't see them working nearly as well for the real pushy, self confident, hard dogs - these dogs would be very interested in whsat they want to do when they want to do it. Reasonable corrections do not phase these dogs and do not 'shut them down' whatsoever. they do cause them to listen and pay atention to their handlers.


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## Lin

codmaster said:


> I would suspect that many, if not most, service dogs would have a much more biddable and softer personality than many other *high drive pushy dominant *dogs.


You just described my service dog there. High drive, pushy, and of every dog thats been through my care (which is a lot, when you start counting up fosters) or roommates dogs she's the dominant one. 

I don't consider high drive to be incompatible with biddable or handler soft (going from "soft personality" to handler soft here.) So its really not so much about the personality of the dog in this case. It definitely makes a difference, as does where you are in the training. But purely positive shaping brings out an enthusiasm for trying out behaviors that I have not seen with any other training method. And thats what works for certain types of training.


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## Lin

codmaster said:


> Reasonable corrections do not phase these dogs and do not 'shut them down' whatsoever. they do cause them to listen and pay atention to their handlers.


My dog never stops listening or paying attention. But she stops offering random behaviors and waits for me to instruct her with what I want. And if thats something crazy and new like flipping a light switch, its not easy to teach without that enthusiasm for offering up strange things.


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## codmaster

Lin said:


> You just described my service dog there. High drive, pushy, and of every dog thats been through my care (which is a lot, when you start counting up fosters) or roommates dogs she's the dominant one.
> 
> I don't consider high drive to be incompatible with biddable or handler soft (going from "soft personality" to handler soft here.) So its really not so much about the personality of the dog in this case. It definitely makes a difference, as does where you are in the training. But purely positive shaping brings out an enthusiasm for trying out behaviors that I have not seen with any other training method. And thats what works for certain types of training.


What does your service dog do? i.e. what is his/her job? I would assume that different jobs would require a different personality.

Also, I am curious as to what your dog would do if you yelled at him? 

Most of my past dogs would have shown at least some degree of submission - head down, ears lowered, a little bit of the tail between their legs, a "guilty" look or some such action. Not my current boy! He has shown that behavior only once or twice in the three years that we have had him from a 7 week old.

He is a very "hard" dog and I realize that not many dogs are like that. 

That is why the "best" training approach is based on the individual dog and what you are training for.

Positive training mostly - yes! Only positive with NO corrections - no! Impractical in many cases.


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## Lin

She is a mobility assistance dog. I don't know about different personalities for different types of service dogs, but it does take a specific type of dog to be a good service animal. But its also the same type of dog that can make an excellent working or sport dog. Very strong nerve, confidence, stability etc. 

If I yelled at her she would hang her head and lay her ears back. Tessa and my other dog Emma would be on the handler soft side. My boy Logan who passed away was the opposite when it came to corrections. Yell and he doesn't even notice (in fact there were times I yelled out to him and Tessa reacted) or blow through corrections, but then if I was in danger it would be Tessa protecting me and Logan hiding behind me. 

I agree that an approach needs to be customized for the individual dog. And I never said that all training had to be positive with no corrections. I don't use all positive training with no corrections with Tessa. But when I'm teaching service tasks or agility obstacles, positive only and encouraging that enthusiasm to try different behaviors was the fastest and easiest way. And I've seen that in the service dog training organization in my city, with a wide variety of dogs. Now if I tell Tessa "give" and she doesn't release, I'm going to give a verbal correction to her. But thats a learned command and I expect her to follow it. Teaching to flip the light switch? I'm just going to ignore everything thats "wrong" because I don't want to hinder her enthusiasm to try. I want her, NEED her, to try different things. You can't force or use a food lure for everything.


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## codmaster

What would you do after she knows "flip the light" and doesn't do it when told to? I assume, of course, that you do need to give a command to "flip the light".

Isn't that the same as "sit' and she doesn't sit?

And there is obviously a big definite difference in "teaching" the dog to do anything, and then "proofing" it; and expecting the dog to do what you tell them after they know what the command means and you know that they know what the command means.

By the way, even Bill Kohler, (the very devil himself in the view of many pos only folks from those that I have talked to) was adament that you don't "correct" a dog until you are sure that he knows the command!


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## Lin

codmaster said:


> What would you do after she knows "flip the light" and doesn't do it when told to? I assume, of course, that you do need to give a command to "flip the light".
> 
> Isn't that the same as "sit' and she doesn't sit?
> 
> And there is obviously a big definite difference in "teaching" the dog to do anything, and then "proofing" it; and expecting the dog to do what you tell them after they know what the command means and you know that they know what the command means.


I would give a verbal correction, just as I do if she didn't sit or didn't give etc. But it would usually be in the form of an "eh eh" that means "what you're doing is wrong" and then repeat or reinforce the command. Really not too much different from an NRM in my opinion. 

But there is also a difference between competing in agility where speed is involved. It may depend on the dog, especially if you have a hard dog, but keeping everything as positive as possible has also been the speediest way to get results imo. For example with Tessa again.... Her early training was very much with compulsive based trainers. When she came to me, I tried one of those completely positive only trainers and it was so ineffective that I unfortunately swung the other direction and chose some overly compulsive trainers. And she learned the commands, but I didn't like the way she did them. Slow-mo downs etc. But when I pull out the clicker, she starts snapping down or up etc. 

And I do think it very much has to do with the correct balance for the specific dog and the specific place where you are in the training. But I guess what I'm saying here (in oh-so-many words) is that it also has to do with WHAT your training... Which depending on your goals can overshadow some other things. I use less correction and more ignoring, or more subtle corrections (eh-eh instead of a collar snap) in general because I am hyper aware of not wanting to tarnish that enthusiasm to try. And from my limited experience with agility, its very similar to SD task training.


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## GermanShepherd<3

Rerun said:


> German shepherd, you stated in another post that you were 16 and hadn't had a GSD. In what capacity have you been involved in agility, flyball, schutzhund training, etc? I'm not talking about what you've seen on youtube.


Hello! 
I have friends who go to classes and are very active. They invite me to go with them. This is how I learn about things. I went to some GSD Sch trials and saw different attitudes, and I looked up the places and I was allowed to watch. In my area there is a force trainer and a clicker trainer for Sch, how cool is that to have clickers in the MIGHTY sch? 
I have friends (they are seniors) who still compete in Flyball. I was with them when they changed classes with their JRT. 
In agility, it was outdoor training, this was far from my area and they people around the fields were allowed to watch. I witnessed it firsthand, it was terrible!! They were dragging the pups and the adults were forced because they believe once they do it one time, they will be confident about the obstacles. 
I just now started to watch agility classes with a cocker my parents friends have. I went to two classes they had. I am going to go see the AKC trials coming up. 
Sorry I wasn't too clear. I hope this fixed some misunderstandings, although I would love to have a dog. So in short, I have family friends who as adults do dog sports and their kids as junior stuff sometimes. One thing I would love to see if dock diving. 
Have a great day everyone. Keep up the positive reinforcement. 
-Nicole :crazy:


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## Rerun

While it's great that you have observed it an have an obvious interest in learning (watching/reading) about sports, you really should be careful giving actual training advice to those who are actively working and training their dogs until you have actual hands on experience training in these sports with your own dog. JMHO


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## codmaster

Rerun said:


> While it's great that you have observed it an have an obvious interest in learning (watching/reading) about sports, you really should be careful giving actual training advice to those who are actively working and training their dogs until you have actual hands on experience training in these sports with your own dog. JMHO


Seems like great advice!


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