# Is TOTW Pacific Salmon okay for puppy?



## HeyJude (Feb 2, 2011)

I've been feeding Harley TOTW PS for quite awhile now, he seems to do best on this food. Is this okay for a 3.5 m/o puppy? She looks quite heavy, so I am going to cut her way down (she was free fed). She was on some junk food, I didn't ask what it was, it looked to be one of the cheapest foods I've seen. I switched her right away (didn't want the crap food in the house for Harley or Hannah to try), she has some runny stools, but not too bad. Its only been a week on the food. Should I feed her something different? 
Thanks for all your advice. Oh, I live in the middle of no-where, there are no petstores within 40 or so miles, so TSC is the easiest to get to (24 miles).


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Too much calcium.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I don't know of many who would feed this food to a German Shepherd puppy.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I wouldn't feed it to a puppy. TSC has Blue Buffalo and Merrick. You might want to look into those.


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## HeyJude (Feb 2, 2011)

Checked out all the food. I bought the diamond naturals large breed puppy. Reason for this, it was the one I could afford since I have to buy two different dog foods. Around here the dog food prices have increased weekly almost. How much of this food should I feed her? It says 4-5 cups on the bag, but that seems like more than she was eating when I was free feeding them! She doesn't have a waistline, and she has lots of fat on her.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

At what age would you folks suggest switching back to TOTW? I had my boy on it but took him off it because so many people on this board said it was bad for pups. He likes it and the price is right but I don't want to switch him back to soon. Is there a general consensus on a safe age?


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## brandeeno (Jan 3, 2012)

Can anybody prove some proof from a valid article written by a valid person in the industry?.... thats regarding the amount of calcium thatbis good or bad. I see all the posts about it, but never anything to back it up. I have not found much whwn googling my self. Ideallu the proof would be a peer reviewed article.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

robk said:


> At what age would you folks suggest switching back to TOTW? I had my boy on it but took him off it because so many people on this board said it was bad for pups. He likes it and the price is right but I don't want to switch him back to soon. Is there a general consensus on a safe age?


Like anything else, depends on who you ask! LOL

I changed from Canidae ALS to TOTW when Siren was 12 months old. I prefer to feed all of my dogs the same thing, ( I had a puppy and 2 seniors.) so they were all on the Canidae, then I switched them all to the TOTW.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I don't think this article lists amounts of calcium, but it does speak to feeding a large breed pup....

http://www.lgd.org/library/Optimal%20feeding%20of%20large%20breed%20puppies.pdf

And this...

http://www.skeptvet.com/index.php?p=1_24_Large-Breed-Puppy-Food

https://www.msu.edu/~silvar/hips.htm


I didn't go looking for peer reviewed articles, but I think vet med has researched the calcium and skeletal issues pretty well. 

I try to grow them slow and keep them lean. Even a food with appropriate levels of Ca can be overfed and result in too much intake.


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## Jods (Dec 4, 2011)

I have been feeding Zeus, my 16 week old, Taste of the Wild Pacific Stream Puppy for about 2 weeks now and his stools are much better and his coat looks better, But now this thread has me worried. He has a Vet appoitment on Thursday I will get his opinion. the post what he says.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Jods said:


> I have been feeding Zeus, my 16 week old, Taste of the Wild Pacific Stream Puppy for about 2 weeks now and his stools are much better and his coat looks better, But now this thread has me worried. He has a Vet appoitment on Thursday I will get his opinion. the post what he says.


Don't take too much stock in what a vet tells you about nutrition. I know I wouldn't.

Do your own research and make you own decisions. If it were me, I'd get your puppy on something with less calcium than TOTW.


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## brandeeno (Jan 3, 2012)

Thanks jods. Let me know what s/he says


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## brandeeno (Jan 3, 2012)

Lucy Dog,

There is not much independent, valid and/or peer reviewed information out there for researching on it. Most of the info about this stuff is on forums, blogs, and random web sites which I don't consider to be valid information for something so important. Its not to say I don't trust these wonderful forums and people who contribute to them, but it would be nice to find some recent valid studies on it. Most "valid" information out there seems to be 10-20 years old, people are not clear if it applies to german shepherds, etc...


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

What kind of information are you looking for? Opinions on which food to feed or something specific like calcium and LBP's?

A lot of these companies that feed high calcium foods will flat out tell you not to feed those formulas to a LBP. Wellness is one that comes to mind regarding their core formula.

Samba also posted some very good articles and studies.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with feeding TOTW puppy to a puppy, even a larger breed puppy. I don't feel that 1.3 or 1.4% calcium on an "as fed" basis is too much.


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## brandeeno (Jan 3, 2012)

Lucy Dog,

No, I am not looking for opinions. I am look for some hard facts based on actual tests. What were the dogs fed, what problems did the high calcium in-takers have, did the ones with low calcium intake fair better? how so? etc... I just feel like all this talk about calcium intake in not documented enough. and it might be possible that all the forums have taken off with this "theory" without any proof. Has anybody fed their dog Taste of the Wile or any other dog foods with higher calcium content as a puppy? Can they provide any insight as to how their dogs were at mid age and older age? I just feel like I have not heard any facts. Everybody avoids the high calcium, but they don't base it off any facts. It would be nice to hear from people who have fed the higher calcium diets.

As for the companies that say not feed their high in calcium food... where do they say this? Do you have any links to their sites?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

*Brandeeno, do you have access to Academic Search Complete or another database that will let you read scholarly journals?
*
Lauten SD. Nutritional risks to large-breed dogs: from weaning to the geriatric years. Vet Clin North Am Small Anim Pract. 2006 Nov;36(6):1345-59.

Hazewinkel H, Mott J. Main nutritional imbalances in osteoarticular diseases. In: Pibot P, Biourge V, Elliott D, editors. Encyclopedia of canine clinical nutrition. Aniwa SAS; 2006. p. 348-83.

LaFond E, Breur GJ, Austin CC. Breed susceptibility for developmental orthopedic diseases in dogs. J Am Anim Hosp Assoc. 2002 Sep-Oct;38(5):467-77.

Kealy RD, Lawler DF, Ballam JM, et al. Five-year longitudinal study on limited food consumption and development of osteoarthritis in coxofemoral joints of dogs. JAVMA. 1997;210:222-25.

Hedhamer A, Wu F, Krook L, et al. Overnutrition and skeletal disease: an experimental study in growing Great Dane dogs. Cornell Vet. 1974;64(1; Suppl 5):59.

Kastrom H. Nutrition, weight gain, and development of hip dysplasia. Acta Radiol. 1975;344(suppl):135.

Lavelle RB. The effect of overfeeding of a balanced complete commercial diet to a young group of Great Danes. In: Burger IH, Rivers JPW, editors. Nutrition of the dog and cat. Cambridge (MA), USA. Cambridge University Press; 1989. p. 303-15.

Grondalen J, Hedhammer A. Nutrition of the rapidly growing dog with special reference to skeletal disease. In: Anderson RS, editor. Nutrition and behavior in dogs and cats. Oxford, UK. 1982. 81-8.

Dammrich K. Relationship between nutrition and bone growth in large and giant dogs. J Nutr. 1991 Nov;121(11 Suppl):S114-21.

Hazelwinkel HAW, Goedegeburre SA, Poulos PW, et a;. Influence of chronic calcium excess on the skeletal development of growing Great Danes. J Amer Anim Hosp Assoc. 1985;21:337-91.

Schoenmakers I, Hazelwinkel HAW, Voorhout G, et al. Effects of diets with different calcium and phosphorus contents on the skeletal development and blood chemistry of growing Great Danes. Vet Rec. 2000;147:652-60.

Weber M, Martin L, Dumon H, et al. Growth and skeletal development in two large breeds fed 2 calciu levels. J Vet Int Med. 2000;388.

Nap RC, Hazelwinkel HAW, Voorhout G, et al. Growth and skeletal development in Great Dane pups fed different levels of protein intake. J Nutr. 1991;121:S107-113.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Brandeeno, you are certainly free to do your own research here. Google is very helpful.

Just two links that do appear to be reputable, and that was a five second search:

https://www.msu.edu/~silvar/hips.htm
Large Breed Puppy Food Skeptvet.com

Good luck in your research.


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## brandeeno (Jan 3, 2012)

Emoore, no I do not.

Chelle, only one of these is posted at an .edu address, but still... 1) it is from 1995 (LOTS has has changed in dog diet research since then) and 2) it only states ideas... but does not show any of the details or research and 3) it often relates this to grate danes, who I believe are significantly physiologicaly different then GSDs.

As for the skeptvet, the guy/girl does not even post his/her references. 

All,
I just want to be clear I am not trying to create and hub-bub and make noise. I just want to let you know, and perhaps open some others eyes as to the lack of valid information out there on this topic and we might want to reconsider all these thoughts about particular brands having X percent more calcium than the other, or that puppies will get X problems by consuming too much of vitamin X. Perhaps I should believe everything everybody says here, and perhaps there is plenty of valid information out there (but I have yet to find it). 

Also, I don't want to follow that thought of "if there is the slightest chance it is bad, why should i bother...". If I followed that thought process in life, I wouldn't use cell phones, watch TV, or eat meat.


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## brandeeno (Jan 3, 2012)

btw, Emoor and Chelle, I really appreciate the information you provided. thanks!


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

brandeeno said:


> btw, Emoor and Chelle, I really appreciate the information you provided. thanks!


You are welcome. The skeptvet did note a number of study references farther down. 

At the end of the day, the owner has to make the final decision, based on the entirety of the information found. I would never fully trust info on a forum, but it is an excellent starting point. People raise points and it is then our duty to further research those points and arrive at the conclusion.

As it concerns calcium, I suppose I do "buy" into that. I think there have been enough studies done, whether dated or not. And actually, a lack of studies to invalidate it is further "proof" to me. I would rather err on the safe side I suppose. It would seem there is no harm in keeping the calcium levels down for at least the first year, so that is what I'm doing.


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## Kaz (Nov 21, 2011)

Diamond naturals rocks!

Its cheap AND good. I feed my pure bred show quality import pup kirkland's supreme puppy signature chow from costco, which diamond naturals makes.

His breeder recommended it, and Manfred (my pup) is happy, healthy, glossy coat and growing like a weed.

dogfoodadvisor.com is a good resource for determining the quality of food. The web site is maintained by a dentist, and not a vet, but he has put in significant effort in to it. 

The decision is yours, but the website helps you determine the facts.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

brandeeno said:


> Emoore, no I do not.


Ok cool. If you ask for references to studies, most of the studies on this stuff are published in scholarly journals and are not available for free to the public. Someone can post references to the studies like I did, but if you're not able to access the journals, the best you can get is second-hand articles like chelle posted, where someone has read the journals and then posts their opinion about them. For the research, you have to read the journals.




brandeeno said:


> Also, I don't want to follow that thought of "if there is the slightest chance it is bad, why should i bother...". If I followed that thought process in life, I wouldn't use cell phones, watch TV, or eat meat.


I tend to disagree with this. There is a large opportunity cost involved in giving up cell phones, TV, or meat. Giving up any of those things would alter your life radically. Since there are lower-calcium Large Breed Puppy and All Life Stages foods available for the same price as their higher-calcium counterparts, there is practically no opportunity cost in opting for the safer choice.


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## brandeeno (Jan 3, 2012)

I hear ya


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## HeyJude (Feb 2, 2011)

So, I gradually started feeding Uschi/Holly Diamond Natural Large breed puppy lamb and rice. And, the more she gets the yuckier she feels. Her poop is awful and she moans more now. I'm going to try blue fish and potato for both of them. Harley does so well on the totw fish, so maybe he will do just as well on blue fish? It is so darned difficult feeding GSD's.


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