# The trouble with shepherds...



## Bridget (Apr 5, 2004)

My husband and I attend big air events with our labs. We see some GSDs participating, not a lot, but a few. We have often speculated on how come the GSDs usually don't do really well at these events (and please forgive me anyone who has a GSD who does well because I know there are some). We've talked about how athletic GSDs are and it seems like they ought to be stars of the big air world, but in general, they're not. My husband said he finally figured it out...he said they think too much, that you can even see the wheels turning when they're on the dock, that they are overthinking the whole process.


----------



## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

What kind of events are you talking about?


----------



## Heagler870 (Jun 27, 2009)

I'm probably totally wrong but I think it's where the dog jumps off into the water. That's what I got from reading it.


----------



## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

are you talking about dock jumping?! if yes, i think its because more shepherd owners have their dog involved in schultzhund and/or agility or they dont really know about the kind of sports they can participate in. I know with shepherds, i'm more interested in schulzthund (if i had a dog who could do it soundly) or agility or them just being a family pet who takes nice long walks with me.


----------



## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Just did a quick search and Big Air Events seems to be Dock Diving. I've seen a few shepherds do it but not many. Fun sport although we don't see it much around us.


----------



## Bridget (Apr 5, 2004)

Yes, sorry I didn't explain, it is dock dogs I am talking about. It has more retrieving type breeds, but a few shepherds too. The shepherds do do well in the extreme vertical, which is jumping up to get the toy in the air. I just thought the overthinking comment was kind of funny, because GSDs are so smart, but sometimes I think their smarts do get in the way of things.


----------



## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

lol i can understand the overthinking it. My dogs overthink things sometimes. By the time they finally get around to doing something its no use lol.


----------



## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

Dock diving is a relatively new sport that started in the hunting dog events. Most people don't even know that it exists yet and there are a whole lot of GSDs that don't like water. I am dying to try it and think my dog would do well, but I hear it's extremely expensive to do. I recently saw one of these events on tv and a malinut took first place so word is beginning to get out about it.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

My friend has dalmations, and they had the number something dock diver in the country. 

It simply does not appeal to me.


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Does anyone really think that the right GSD cannot outjump a Lab? 

Can you picture a Lab doing the work that GSD's do routinely in a sport like Schutzhund - maybe scaling a 6' wall?


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I know a lab who is a certified police dog, owned by our cheif of police here. I guess maybe in the course of his certification, he had to scale a wall.


----------



## Wildtim (Dec 13, 2001)

codmaster said:


> Does anyone really think that the right GSD cannot outjump a Lab?
> 
> Can you picture a Lab doing the work that GSD's do routinely in a sport like Schutzhund - maybe scaling a 6' wall?


I can picture a lab doing it easily. Seen it often. They aren't any less agile than a GSD.


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

selzer said:


> I know a lab who is a certified police dog, owned by our cheif of police here. I guess maybe in the course of his certification, he had to scale a wall.


Selzer, 

That is great to hear that there is a Lab who can scale a 6' wall, although you did say that *maybe* he did have to scale a wall in his certification! Does that mean that you are not sure he had to scale a wall, or that you are not sure that it was a 6' wall? 

And it was just the one lab that you had heard about that did so.

Do you mean to imply that Labs can scale walls like GSD's, or maybe are you saying that Labs can jump like or better than GSD's. 

Labs are certainly much more at home in the water than most GSD's.

Please note that my only intent was to suggest that MAYBE GSD's could also do well at dock jumping if their owners wanted to try it. they are certainly athletic enough to do so, I think.

I wasn't trying to denigrate Labs - I like Labs and think that thery are really neat dogs (please no more responses from irate Lab owners!).

Just as a matter of curiosity - is the Lab that you know of a police dog who does drug detection or one who aprehends the bad guys physically by biting and the like?


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Wildtim said:


> I can picture a lab doing *it *easily. Seen it often. They aren't any less agile than a GSD.


Wildtim,

That is very interesting to find that out. I have never heard of a Lab doing Schutzhund work.

No reason that they couldn't, I would think but I have never seen it.

Is that what you are referring to by "it" above, or are you just referring to scaling a 6' wall.

Can you give me a web site or other reference to a Lab doing this? I would love to see it (and also give the reference to a couple of Lab owners in my local obedience club).

Thanks!


----------



## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

dock diving is something i would be interested in doing with my dogs.... if they liked water and doing much of anything except sleeping on the couch, eating and MAYBE going for a walk to check the mail with me. i've seen some labs jump pretty darn far out there but i've seen some GSDs kick their butts all over the place. but i've also seen the smaller Mals kick butt too. I guess it just depends on the dogs, handlers and locations and who wants to go to that location. I would love to see a lab doing schulzhund work. I imagine its possible but the only time i ever see a lab on the police force is because its a drug dog and they dont have to scale walls to find the dope.


----------



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

GSD's have it over most dogs. they look good, they're smart
and they're so versatile. there's a reason why GSD's rule the
Schutzhund world.



codmaster said:


> Does anyone really think that the right GSD cannot outjump a Lab?
> 
> Can you picture a Lab doing the work that GSD's do routinely in a sport like Schutzhund - maybe scaling a 6' wall?


----------



## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

I have a lab, a lab/chessie, a pit and a dutchie. My labs are very graceful and agile. My mix was a trained SAR dog and a VERY hard worker. The disaster dogs on my team were labs, FEMA trained and extremely athletic and able to scale/climb some pretty amazing things.

I dock jump my dogs, Midas has a jump of 19+ feet:



I have started the training with Madix to get him to do this for dock jumping, and he will - into a river - but I haven't gotten into a competition yet. They trained pretty much the same - same time, amount of effort, "got it" the same. 

I have given consideration to trying my mix in SchH because I feel he may have what it takes - however, he is living with my ex so that would be difficult to "borrow" him every week for training. 

The sports I'm training/doing with Madix, I have done with my labs - they're who got me hooked on the sports to begin with. They are both wonderful breeds. And actually, sometimes it's easier to teach my labs - they're a little calmer and take the time to figure out what I want - Madix tends to start throwing behavior at me, offering things wildly when he doesn't get it "right" the first time. And yes, I recognize that Madix is not a GSD and has a different temperament. Just tossing my 2 cents out there.


----------



## gypsyrose (Nov 22, 2010)

i love a quot i read on here "Gsd's are the best at almost everythings and the things there not there secound best."


----------



## kidkhmer (Jul 14, 2010)

What about extreme reverse vertical diving ? I jumped off a 20ft high railway bridge last week ( into water ) And karma came off straight after me !!!! I almost had a heart attack but *kersplash* she loved it ................


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

codmaster said:


> Selzer,
> 
> That is great to hear that there is a Lab who can scale a 6' wall, although you did say that *maybe* he did have to scale a wall in his certification! Does that mean that you are not sure he had to scale a wall, or that you are not sure that it was a 6' wall?
> 
> ...


Not an irate lab owner. I do not have a lab, I really do not like the breed, but that is personal preference. ALL the dogs that ever charged me in training classes were.......LABS!!! Yupp, they can be aggressive.

I have no idea what the state boards require for certifying police dogs. This dog has passed the test. If there was an agility portion, he passed it. I really see no problem with a lab doing that if the owners did not feed him until he resembles a coffee table as so many lab owners do.

There is room in the dog world for other breeds of dogs. We do not have to put down one breed to make our breed look better. We probably wouldn't be on a shepherd site if we were not impressed with the breed.


----------



## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

selzer said:


> Not an irate lab owner. I do not have a lab, I really do not like the breed, but that is personal preference. ALL the dogs that ever charged me in training classes were.......LABS!!! Yupp, they can be aggressive.


My best friend has a Lab who is extremely DA, she snapped at her two year old once, she redirects to who ever is near human or dog when she can't get to the dog she wants to kill. Other than her DA reactive issues she's a good dog. Indy is the only lab I've known that's aggressive, but I have seen in the past few years more and more aggressive labs because people don't know how to work them properly IMO.


----------



## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

FG167 said:


> I dock jump my dogs, Midas has a jump of 19+ feet:


Is this Midas in the picture?? Great shot!!


----------



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Sometimes, when we get a lot of rain our back yard floods. Hondo likes to jump off the back patio (maybe 12" high) into the water after a ball. Problem is, as a dog who ALWAYS brings it back, he is highly interested in the fact that he can make the ball splash. He'll dunk the ball out of the water, and then let it drop down making a splash...then dunk the ball back out of the water....then let it drop down making a splash. I'm completely forgotten, and he is in his own little world. If he were in water over his head, he'd forget to swim attempting to get the ball to make another splash.....


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think that it is a couple of things. Their popularity -- they 3x the litters (usually large litters) of the next breed on the popularity scale month after month after month. I get this from looking at it in the AKC Gazzette.

So you KNOW there is a LOT of indescriminate breeding, probably LOTS of inbreeding, and breeding of dogs that have issues.

And then you have a dog, that is bred to be a hunting dog, with tons of energy. And slap them in a crate for the first four years of their life. Lab puppies are known to EAT everything, most people crate them a lot to protect them and the owner's sanity. But then you have a dog that is crated 16 - 20 hours per day, and this is a large and active dog. When the people do get them out, the exhuberance is kind of overwhelming. 

If the people hang on until the dog is seven years old, it suddenly becomes the best dog ever, and maybe they will keep it to 12 years. But my guess is people are giving up on them around the time they reach their adult weight, 90 or 100 pounds, are still puppies, still chewing, still full of energy, still rambunctious.

Maybe that is why people let them resemble coffee tables. Maybe it slows them down. 

My guess is that a well-bred lab would be an awesome dog, but finding them might be harder than finding a good shepherd breeder. Only people interested in hunting would require field trials. No one is too worried about the dogs' skill set. The vast majority of buyers are pet people. Who cares if the dog has obedience titles.

I see them in obedience classes -- usually AFTER they are large and having serious issues. I rarely see them in the obedience or rally rings. For as popular as they are, one would think they would have a better turnout at such events.


----------



## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Lilie said:


> ,* he is highly interested in the fact that he can make the ball splash. *He'll dunk the ball out of the water, and then let it drop down making a splash...then dunk the ball back out of the water....then let it drop down making a splash.


LOL, Harley drops his ball in his water dish, over and over again. It's the only reason our kitchen floor is always clean.


----------



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Whiteshepherds said:


> LOL, Harley drops his ball in his water dish, over and over again. It's the only reason our kitchen floor is always clean.


Hondo put a Kong in the toilet. Did you know that at some point they sank? Did you also know that a Kong in the bottom of a toilet, in a dark bathroom, late at night, strangely closely resembles a huge snake head coming from the bottom of the toilet? Did you also know that a 47 year old woman can scream saprano while leaping from the bathroom, over the sleeping husband, onto her side of the bed in a single bound?


----------



## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Whiteshepherds said:


> LOL, Harley drops his ball in his water dish, over and over again. It's the only reason our kitchen floor is always clean.


Abby does the same, I think part of it is the fun of it and part is because she gets a reaction from us.

As to the dock diving: I agree that, generally, labs will outperform GSDs. Labs seem to have more quickness and power (once again, generally). I see it all the time at the dog park and elsewhere. With regard to the overthinking I also agree. GSDs give the impression: "What's in it for ME?!" Whereas most other dogs are just plain DOGS.
I see most dogs just acting and reacting while my dog stands there tilting her head trying to figure out what in the heck is going on. Eventually she will 'think', hey that looks like fun and amble into the activity. Then go nuts just like all the others


----------



## mssandslinger (Sep 21, 2010)

my gsd over thinks everything! it taked him forever to do "bang bang" tne min later he finally rolls on his side and whimpers,, lol. my lab on the other hand will jump off anything!


----------



## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Lilie said:


> closely resembles a huge snake head coming from the bottom of the toilet? *Did you also know that a 47 year old woman can scream saprano while leaping from the bathroom, over the sleeping husband, onto her side of the bed in a single bound*?


:rofl:


----------



## Wildtim (Dec 13, 2001)

codmaster said:


> Wildtim,
> 
> That is very interesting to find that out. I have never heard of a Lab doing Schutzhund work.
> 
> ...


I was refering to a lab scaling a 6' wall.

However:

Protection trial





French Ring





Schutzhund





With significant drive and confidence they can do it.


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

KZoppa said:


> dock diving is something i would be interested in doing with my dogs.... if they liked water and doing much of anything except sleeping on the couch, eating and MAYBE going for a walk to check the mail with me. i've seen some labs jump pretty darn far out there but i've seen some GSDs kick their butts all over the place. but i've also seen the smaller Mals kick butt too. I guess it just depends on the dogs, handlers and locations and who wants to go to that location. I would love to see a lab doing schulzhund work. I imagine its possible but the only time i ever see a lab on the police force is because its a drug dog and they dont have to scale walls to find the dope.


I think it would be really cool to see a big GSD sailing out over the water!

And to see a Lab (esp. a black one - my favorite) doing Sch would be equally cool so hopefully one of the Lab knowledgable people on the forum will respond with some references to this.


----------



## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Wait for the 1:50 mark and after...that Lab could be a shepherd..he's thinking for sure. LOL


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Very funny video!


----------



## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

Whiteshepherds said:


> Is this Midas in the picture?? Great shot!!


Yes it is  Thanks! At Traverse City Cherry Festival a couple of years ago. We didn't even place for finals with that jump lol


----------



## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

FG167 said:


> Yes it is  Thanks! At Traverse City Cherry Festival a couple of years ago. We didn't even place for finals with that jump lol


Wow, he looked like he was going to fly into the next county!! 

My business partner is originally from Traverse City and she orders a case of the special cherry wine they have each year during the festival. Small world!


----------

