# 6 month old GSD mauls out of nowhere



## Jlmaiorana

My 6 month old GSD gets very aggressive towards my husband and me when we take her out to the bathroom and on walks. She will be really good until we get far from our house and out of nowhere she will jump up at us and clench her jaws around our arm like in shutzhund and not let go. There is absolutely no distracting her when she does this. When she was younger she play bite/ankle bite, but we had her on the e-coller and a choker and she wasn't bad when using corrections. Now we are using a harness and today I had to drag her home with her jaws around my arm. there was no stopping her. She doesn't do this to other people, just my husband and me. When she is around our trainer, she acts good. I just don't know what is setting her off. She will be walking real good, we will give her high value treats, she seems happy and just out of no-where she starts schutzhund biting and growling and wont let go. No-one around, no dogs around no distraction and she does this. HELP!!!


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## Jlmaiorana

All the trainers say to raise your arms up so she cant get them, but then she starts aggressively biting your legs and Achilles tendon.


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## Freddy

The last thing I would do when walking a dog I can't control would be to put them on a harness. I would have her on a slip choke.


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## Jlmaiorana

I agree but my husband thinks its cruel and wants to go all positive training.


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## Freddy

It's not working. What is positive about a dog biting you repeatedly?


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## Msmaria

Is she in Schutzhund training? just wondering because you mention schutzhund


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## Jlmaiorana

My husband thinks the neighbor has something to do with it. We can tell they hate that we got our GSD and all the sudden they are throwing gum in our yard so that she would eat it and die. He thinks maybe they sprinkle black gun powder out there or shakes a can of pennies or blows a whistle to agitate her. I don't know, but I'd like to find out what is setting her off to do this. There is absolutely no warning before she does this.


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## Jlmaiorana

No shutzhund she is In beginners obedience class, but she is biting as if she is in shutzhund.


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## Freddy

I don't see how the neighbor's actions would cause aggression directed at you. If you think your neighbor is doing something that could hurt your puppy, set up a camera and see. 

In an earlier thread you said you had adjusted schedules so someone is home all the time with her. Does this mean you leave her outside unattended, for long periods of time?


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## Jlmaiorana

No, we are always with her. Always on lead when outside. We don't have a fence around our yard yet but plan on putting one up this summer. She is very attentive of this neighbor house all of the time.


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## ApselBear

Buy a bite sleeve for long walks.
Problem solved.


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## Galathiel

If the neighbors were doing something, you would know it as you are always out with her. Is it when you turn to come home? Does she have a favorite toy you can bring along and let her carry .. it's hard for her to bite you and carry a toy. Maybe you can have the trainer watch from a distance while you walk her and see what's going on.


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## Freddy

The things your husband suspects they are doing to agitate her (objects in can, whistle) you would witness if she was with you. 

Not trying to be argumentative, trying to say you are not communicating on the same level as your dog. In an elevated state of play when he was younger, my dog quickly learned I was not to be the target of one of his bites. 

Whether you choose to use the slip choke or not, please understand the harness gives the dog more power. By removing any stress on a body part created by pulling, the dog is free to pull to it's heart's content. I used one on my dog when we first started Schutzhund protection. Your problem at the moment is control.


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## Jlmaiorana

Her favorite toy is no interest to her nor is high valued treats at this point. If I can even get it in her mouth, she just drops it and immediately attaches to my arm. You throw the ball and she has no interest. I've thought of the bite sleeve, lol but that would just tell her its "ok" to do this. Something is setting her off and I cant figure what it is. She is walking and heeling good, attention on me with her treats and all the sudden out of nowhere she attacks. Then people drive by and Im pretty embarrassed when they watch me get mulled by my own dog.


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## Freddy

Just throwing it out there so those on the board with more knowledge can comment:

Is this fear agression brought on by a car or something?

OP, does this just happen on walks?


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## ApselBear

This is the only time when she'll chew on you? It just seems like a crazy odd reaction no matter what the stimulus. 

Honestly this is something you need a prof. trainer to view in person. They'll be able to dissect what the dog is actually up to.


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## Jlmaiorana

We did catch the neighbor kid swinging his keys around one night and said, "they got their f**n dog out." That agitated her, but my husband thinks they do things in their house and only our dog can hear it. It's only this particular neighbor she seems agitated about. Even when they aren't out, she is fixated on their house. No its not when we are heading home, but she does take off and bolts toward the house when we are on our way home and the house is in view.


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## Freddy

_*removed quote post removed previously*_

LF, how does that work with your "bite trained dog"?


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## Jlmaiorana

There were no cars and when one is coming we always use a treat to get her to sit and it works good.


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## middleofnowhere

These are my thoughts - they could be all wet as I haven't seen the dog in action, nor witnessed your training so far.

First, what is her threshold? It sounds like you know the distance when this happens -- work UNDER threshold - ie, turn around before she reaches this point.
Second, if you have used an electric on her previously, it is a little bit late to go to positive only... in that you have brought the fight out in the dog probably with the ecollar.
Try a flat leather collar if you want to move away from what you were using previously.
Third, is it true that if someone else has her on lead this behavior does not happen? If so, video how they handle her. Then video how you handle her in the same situation. See how your handling is different than the other persons. It will probably tell you a lot.
Fourth, Do the other people that she does not grip (I'm going to call it a grip because you haven't mentioned puncture wounds or needing to visit the er) walk the same route? 
And another question - what happens if you keep walking? Dog attached to your arm, you keep going. Forget luring her or anything and just keep walking? 
does she do this on every route you take?
what if you drive her away from the neighborhood and walk her? How long does she go without this behavior?


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## ApselBear

Jlmaiorana said:


> We did catch the neighbor kid swinging his keys around one night and said, "they got their f**n dog out." That agitated her, but my husband thinks they do things in their house and only our dog can hear it. It's only this particular neighbor she seems agitated about. Even when they aren't out, she is fixated on their house. No its not when we are heading home, but she does take off and bolts toward the house when we are on our way home and the house is in view.


Perhaps the pup is seeing your husband's fixation with this house and is then sharing his paranoia? I'm not sure how this is related to the arm work outs.


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## Jlmaiorana

Good questions middleofnowhere . We will look at that. Maybe we should have a friend walk her and see if she is the same with them and try walking her somewhere else too. There are a lot of dogs in our neighborhood, but I don't think that's what it is. She usually just barks at them and stands her ground. I did video tape taking her out to the bathroom and sent it to my trainer. Its hard to tape it though while you are being mulled. I think she needs to see a behavioralis myself.


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## Castlemaid

I think this is a big game for her. Does she get exercise other than leash walks? I suspect she has no outlet for her drives and redirects her frustrations onto you. What do you do when she clamps on to your arms? Make a big deal and try to get her off? She probably thinks this is the funnest game of tug ever. 

Do you play tug with her? Teach her that the proper thing bite when she wants to play with you is a tug. Bring one on walks, get her to carry it. She can't bite you if she is carrying something. Grab the tug handle when she is carrying it and start to play - she will learn that carrying the tug is part of the play. 

I'm concerned that she is only six months old, and she 'used' to be on a prong and an electric collar for control. I think you and your husband will need some training and coaching on how to interact with her, how to play tug with her in a positive, rewarding way, how to redirect to toys, how to act so to NOT reward her biting your arms, and you will need some activities for her that will give her appropriate outlets for her drives and energies. 

My rescue used to have no self-control, and would get into spastic modes of jumping on me, grabbing my jacket and clothing, and pulling like a maniac while growling up a storm. The more I tried to beat her off me, the more hyper and spastic she got. This kind of behavior was completely new to me, and honestly, it scared me. 

Since the more forceful I tried to be with her, the more riled up she became, I changed tactics completely. When she started this, I completely went limp, shut my eyes, turned my head, withdrew my energy to within, completely disengaged in every way. It took a few times, but it worked. Completely confused her, and was not the reaction she was looking for. 

I waited for her to let go, and get off me, and then slowly and calmly I came back to her presence and praised for her. The first few times I so much as opened my eyes and looked at her, she saw it as "GAME ON!" and would start up again. So disengage I would, mentally, emotionally, and wait her out. It took four, five times before she didn't try to start up the game and we could actually walk on. If I saw the look in her eyes that she was thinking of jumping up and grabbing clothing trying to start a new wrestling match, I would again stop, look away, close my eyes, go limp, withdraw my energy - it worked miracles! But had to be consisten. 

Another thing you need to do is find a Schutzhund/IPO/working dog trainer who can show you how to play tug properly, and show you how to work to control her. Giving treats for this kind of over-the-top drivey behavior and no-self control won't cut it. Forget the harness - stupidest thing ever on a dog this size. Go back to a prong, or at least a martingale if you are against the prong. 

Hard part is going to have to convince your husband, but he should acknowledge that what you have been doing isn't working, and it's time to change things up 180 degrees. 

So to recap:

- Ditch the harness, get a collar.
- Get this dog to play tug with a proper tug. Bring said tug on walks, stuff in mouth. 
- If dog grabs arms and won't let go - completely disengage your energy until you are an absent, lifeless wet noodle that completely shuts out your pup. I bet that is NOT what she is expecting as a reaction - she is expecting you guys to make a big deal of her on your arm, and whooo - what a fun game!!! 

- Find a trainer of working dogs that understands high-drives, redirecting to a tug, and work with said trainer. Treats re-enforce behaviours you want. Some behaviours are so self-rewarding, that extinguishing them takes a lot of skill. You will have to learn how to redirect to something else (tugging with a TOY - not your arms), and how to take away the reward (as in going limp and refusing to play her game). 

This puppy NEEDS proper outlets for her energies and drives. Get involved in activities galore and find ways to exercise her little heart out that is more demanding mentally and physically than leash walks. 

If you wonder what else I did with my rescue, I got her into obedience classes, intro to agility, tracking class, then I went on to Schutzhund with her. 

The more we did, the better behaved and easier to live with she became.


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## carmspack

She will be really good until we get far from our house and out of nowhere she will jump up at us and clench her jaws around our arm like in shutzhund and not let go. this is what you said.

I don't believe the neighbour has anything to do with this , because you are the target and only when some distance from the house.

Is the distance the same each time.

Where in the "treat sequence" are you when this happens. Is she pushing you for treats ?

this might not be popular with anyone - and so be it -- but I think a dog intimidating its owners with aggression needs to be fixed immediately and permanently. NO mouthing - at all , end of story.

I would have zero treats. I think some dogs are spoiled , treated to death. Have protests and tantrums or shut downs when the treat is not coming . They want to raise the ante . Some things in life you do because the have to be done. Using kids as an example , there are household chores which are shared for the common good . No payment - specifically. No strikes allowed and no catering on your part.

Get the dog out of the harness - useless . Get a proper fit collar , worn in the right spot, either chain (herm sprenger or other good quality) or pinch collar and be prepared to give a lightning fast stern correction , and then immediately forget / forgive and carry on matter of fact in a determined way to where YOU want to go. 

More obedience on the walk . 

Shorten the walk at first. End on a successful note.
Come home and put the dog in the kennel or the crate and walk away . No coddling.

Doggy needs to learn respect . You need to earn respect . 

treats and asking -- not at the moment -- first you command --

funny that this came up because I read about a super schutzhund dog from the perspective of 3 people --- but that could be another thread !


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## carmspack

There are a lot of dogs in our neighborhood, but I don't think that's what it is. She usually just barks at them and stands her ground

xxx you can't allow this --- correct and move on -- dog is too much in the drivers seat . 

question , who does she maul ? I take it you and your husband go out for the walks together? Does the dog "pick" the maulee or does she chose the person who has the lead ?

When walking this dog it should be at an energetic clip , not a lazy stroll. You should keep her second guessing what is coming next . Commands along the way . Demand compliance .


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## Msmaria

Does she just bite you, or does she try to pull you back in the direction of home. i only asked because my dog when a pup has grabbed my arm to pull me another direction when its getting dark and he wanted me to hurry up. (or maybe since she goes home when he bites you , this has become routine and this is her way of getting you to go home)


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## carmspack

msmaria , was your dog anxious about the dark and distance?


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## Jlmaiorana

Yes she punctures our flesh and her bite force has gotten pretty strong. I can feel my bones starting to crush.


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## Longfisher

*Only once.*



Msmaria said:


> Sounds like youve been through this before. Is there a reason your dog bites you?


I've had two GSDs. It only happened once with each. No more after the first "treatment". I guess it was memorable.

As for the reason, handler aggression, I suppose. Both became perfect little Gentlemen after a while, though.

I am lucky about something, though. I reserve the term BAD DOG for instances of especially dangerous or harmful behavior by the dogs. I issue that phrase at very high and, to the dogs, perhaps startling volume. And, quick and stinging corrections follow.

It's gotten to the point that I only have to use the phrase infrequently now, perhaps once a month.

LF


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## Msmaria

carmspack said:


> msmaria , was your dog anxious about the dark and distance?



He did this one time on a trail, we were getting back late and he heard a coyote. He was about 6 or 7 months. he was ahead of me playing on the trail but came back to me grabbed my arm and tried to get me to run all the way to the car. I should add ever since then, if he wants to get me somewhere for example to show me he wants water in his bowl, he will grab my arm in his mouth and take me over there. If I tell him to leave it, he does.


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## carmspack

Jlmaiorana said:


> Yes she punctures our flesh and her bite force has gotten pretty strong. I can feel my bones starting to crush.


you need to see a trainer .
this is dangerous . dangerous.
hit the right vein and .......

the dog is not clear -- needs to be taken down a few pegs.

probably many things in management that need to be changed.

how do you interact with the dog in the house?


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## llombardo

How old was she when she had an ecollar and choke collar on? If these tools aren't used correctly it can do more damage to the dog. I'm going with retraining without those tools. If she got zapped when she was younger for doing what puppies do instead of being redirected then I don't blame her.


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## Jlmaiorana

Good point carmspack, I plan on getting her in agility/scent work, but have to start with beg obedience. She know sit and down and all but has no recall whatsoever. Our 1st trainer who used choke/e collar is who made it clear that this dog is work/police dog and did wonders with corrections. Hubby thinks its cruel and that she will eventually turn. New trainer claims to have many years of experience with GSDs, but I doubt this particular breed of GSD. As soon as we get the fence up this summer, I will be able to really work her. My husband thinks she is attacking because we had the e collar on before and he always got bit, but he refused to use it. I used it and haven't been bit while using it. I used harness today and she almost ate me.


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## Jlmaiorana

She was 5 months old when trained with these collars and the trainer did well with them.


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## llombardo

*_previous quote removal*_

This is not good advice. There is no reason to send any dog reeling fro m a force of a hit to the head


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## llombardo

Jlmaiorana said:


> She was 5 months old when trained with these collars and the trainer did well with them.


I personally think that might be to young.


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## carmspack

"Good point carmspack, I plan on getting her in agility/scent work, but have to start with beg obedience. She know sit and down and all but has no recall whatsoever"

forget about agility where the dog will be zooming around and needing you to direct her . 

seems like the aggression is escalating . Personally I don't think this is the dog for you. 
It can't be easy when you and your husband are not on the same page as far as control and discipline . To have him fear that one day she will turn , well I think it has happened already , means that there is handler / owner fear which will impact on decisive leadership.
"I used harness today and she almost ate me. " how do you keep confidence with this.

one day someone will witness one of those aggressive events and with best intentions call for help - then what , the responding police shoot the dog?

this is a very big issue that has to be taken seriously.


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## carmspack

someone should change the title . I think it started off as GSD mulls,

now it is pulls , the dog is biting through flesh so I think the word needs to be GSD mauls -- get more people visiting and commenting


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## Susan_GSD_mom

Sometimes you read some of these posts and wish you could be there, y'know? I would love to be able to see this dog in action, read him so to speak. Then handle him (or her). This seems, and I say 'seems' since we can't be there to really assess the situation, but it seems like a case where some people shouldn't have GSDs. I hesitate to give any advice, because I suspect that the fault actually lies with the handlers.


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## Msmaria

I thought it was pulls too. If your dog is biting that hard shes hurting you and mauling you, you need professional help with a dog trainer or behaviorist. Im so sorry you are going through this with your dog.


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## selzer

I would take Carmspack's advice on this, but will add, if you are having problems with the neighbors, go the other way, or drive your pup to a trail or a better neighborhood. 

I suppose they could have a dog whistle in there and are antagonizing your dog with it. I just see that at terribly unlikely. 

It is a pretty extreme reaction though. I think you need a serious trainer/behaviorist -- not someone who is just going to slap a prong collar on the dog. 

I would NOT punch this dog, and I would NOT zap it with a stun gun. I would get some recommendations maybe from some people here for people in your area that they have confidence in. This behavior did not start yesterday, and it isn't going to go away overnight -- not an easy fix. You will probably have to change your leadership style and your training style. In the mean time, put a muzzle on the dog when you go for a walk.


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## nktigger99

Jlmaiorana said:


> Good point carmspack, . My husband thinks she is attacking because we had the e collar on before and he always got bit, but he refused to use it.


Are you saying while using the e collar the dog would bite your husband???


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## Lauri & The Gang

pineconeforestGSD said:


> *_removed quote*_
> 
> Jeez - what is with people advocating that you ABUSE your dog?? Tazing and punching so hard the dog is sent reeling???
> 
> Makes me physically sick to read this stuff. I hope NO-ONE ever listens to this type of advice.


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## Chip18

Jlmaiorana said:


> She was 5 months old when trained with these collars and the trainer did well with them.


To state the obvious clearly it didn't work or you would not need this thread for these issues.

You need to slow down, quit punching the dog and find a new approach. You need to establish a "real" bound with the dog. Finding a "competent" qualified certified trainer would be a step in the right direction!

Maybe this could help with establishing a relationship with your dog?
I just got a rescued dog – what do I do? | stickydogblog

When you have a "real" relationship maybe these approches would work better than throwing/abusing him with a bunch of tools has?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9e_1uCQUYvEhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FqtL6o7kDE






The most important element in getting the dog you want and not the dog you have is "you"!


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## SunCzarina

Castlemaid said:


> So to recap:
> 
> - Ditch the harness, get a collar.
> - Get this dog to play tug with a proper tug. Bring said tug on walks, stuff in mouth.
> - If dog grabs arms and won't let go - completely disengage your energy until you are an absent, lifeless wet noodle that completely shuts out your pup. I bet that is NOT what she is expecting as a reaction - she is expecting you guys to make a big deal of her on your arm, and whooo - what a fun game!!!
> 
> - Find a trainer of working dogs that understands high-drives, redirecting to a tug, and work with said trainer. Treats re-enforce behaviours you want. Some behaviours are so self-rewarding, that extinguishing them takes a lot of skill. You will have to learn how to redirect to something else (tugging with a TOY - not your arms), and how to take away the reward (as in going limp and refusing to play her game).


Yes.

It's a game for your pup. Bad dogs don't get walks, she starts for your arm, tell her just that and take her home at a tight heel. 

I would also double handle her. Both you and your husband walk the dog, one on either side with a leash. She goes for someone's arm, the other handler correct her firmly, 'NO! Unacceptable!'

It's going to take time. Forget about the neighbors. If you're always out with her and don't see them, I tend to agree wtih the poster who said your husbands fixating is making her fixate.


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## DaniFani

I love how everyone is pointing out how terrible LF and Pinecone's advice are....when Carm gave very similar advice, just worded it more PC...Swift, extremely stern, lightening correction, and move on, upbeat, and pleasant. 

For the record I agree with LF and Carm. We aren't talking about a dog breaking a down or pulling on a lead, we're talking about a dog breaking the skin of the owner. Don't know the whole story, or if it's true>>("bone crushing"...really?). Honestly, just sounds like an out of control dog, with no leadership, no guidance, no structure, and owners that are really letting emotions take the balance out of the dog's life. I think the dog will be fine with appropriate structure and balanced, clear, training. 

My advice is always to seek a trainer in these situations (with this would come a LOT of obedience, appropriate outlets for drive, etc....) However, I think swift, and as Carm put it..."lightening" corrections, will need to be in the dog's future. Dog is out of control. I feel like a broken record, but these scenarios are why BSL's and prejudices exist.

I've also now seen multiple, intense, out of control dogs, be put under control...it doesn't take much in experienced hands. Like LF said...most only need one "lesson." Dog's are very black and white. It's when WE make things grey because of our emotions, that the dogs get mucked up and confused.


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## SunCzarina

No PUPPY needs a Hand of God lesson being punched in the head. This is a misguided PUPPY we're talking about here. 

This puppy needs a prong collar and a short leash. Short FIRM and focused lessons. With a trainer. She's out of control.


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## ApselBear

*GSD pulls out of nowhere*



SunCzarina said:


> I tend to agree wtih the poster who said your husbands fixating is making her fixate.



:thumbup:



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## Jlmaiorana

Wow I never hit or punched my dog and never will. That would make the situation worse. I just played ball with her in the house for hours and she sits and waits till I toss the ball. She did great. It's just when we are on walks and sometimes bathroom. I kinda jumped into the first trainer I found. Now we are trying an all positive trainer. She did only have one class with her so far and she did well. Just don't know what is triggering her on these walks. I think my husband and I will start walking her together and not in our neighborhood. See if it's different. As far as the title? Lol blame my stupid phones auto correct. I need to turn that off.


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## selzer

DaniFani said:


> I love how everyone is pointing out how terrible LF and Pinecone's advice are....when Carm gave very similar advice, just worded it more PC...Swift, extremely stern, lightening correction, and move on, upbeat, and pleasant.
> 
> For the record I agree with LF and Carm. We aren't talking about a dog breaking a down or pulling on a lead, we're talking about a dog breaking the skin of the owner. Don't know the whole story, or if it's true>>("bone crushing"...really?). Honestly, just sounds like an out of control dog, with no leadership, no guidance, no structure, and owners that are really letting emotions take the balance out of the dog's life. I think the dog will be fine with appropriate structure and balanced, clear, training.
> 
> My advice is always to seek a trainer in these situations (with this would come a LOT of obedience, appropriate outlets for drive, etc....) However, I think swift, and as Carm put it..."lightening" corrections, will need to be in the dog's future. Dog is out of control. I feel like a broken record, but these scenarios are why BSL's and prejudices exist.
> 
> I've also now seen multiple, intense, out of control dogs, be put under control...it doesn't take much in experienced hands. Like LF said...most only need one "lesson." Dog's are very black and white. It's when WE make things grey because of our emotions, that the dogs get mucked up and confused.


I am not against a correction. I would not punch a dog that is acting like this puppy is, nor hit it with a stun gun. Not when there are so many other ways to train a dog. Not when, this is happening in a situation where I can set it up. 

Why not put a basket muzzle on this dog and walk it to get its exercise in, then take the muzzle off and play/work with it? The moment this dog gets crazy-aggressive, lightning fast, game over. 

I'm sorry, but I can't be afraid of a six month old puppy. I certainly am not going to punch one. But I am not going to let it bite me either. 

I think I am hearing that they were using e-collars and prong collars already on this puppy, and so now we have a puppy that needs a strong correction. Or needs to be outwitted. 

We should be able to outwit a puppy. If we can't maybe we should go for a different kind of dog, maybe a setter.


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## DaniFani

SunCzarina said:


> No PUPPY needs a Hand of God lesson being punched in the head. This is a misguided PUPPY we're talking about here.
> 
> This puppy needs a prong collar and a short leash. Short FIRM and focused lessons. With a trainer. She's out of control.


I don't understand, a prong can def be a "hand of god" lesson>>Whatever that is...you mean black and white? Clear?...it's just PC. A prong isn't always on the dog or available. I think it was Carm who mentioned in a recent thread about how she never really has an issue with puppy "land sharking" and "blooding and shredding" hands/feet/whatever....She's bred police dogs, the potential to bite is there. She said in the thread, when the puppy bites it gets a quick pinch, or flick of the nose (can't remember...sorry if I'm mis quoting carm), immediately becomes upbeat and positive, and moves on. SO many could learn from this. 

I have no issues with my pup biting me, my kids, anyone, in playing...he's 6 months old, has a great grip, great pulling, and LOVES tug. He learned from the get go, no biting me, my son, or anyone...that and "you can't jump on my son's head when he runs by" were two lessons the dog learned after ONE take. I didn't re-direct, I didn't set him up and then correct him, didn't get a pinch....just dealt with it when it happened, and it was over, we moved on and became super positive again...Never another issue. 

And trust me, I am NOT a professional, and I don't have some "unique" dog that wouldn't shred my hands given the chance, he absolutely would if I hadn't made that black and white from the get go...I'm blessed with some great mentors that are teaching me how to keep things black and white, and guiding me along the way with this puppy. 

Sorry for the tangent...just thought the "it's a PUPPY, it doesn't need the 'Hand of God" followed by..."it needs a pinch, short leash, and FIRM sessions." I think anyone that said correct the dog, would agree that a pinch would work the same/just as well.


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## Jlmaiorana

The end collar worked for me but not my husband because he didn't use it. Honestly I don't want to rely on a collar. I want relationship. That's why we are trying the new trainer. When I say bone crushing I mean you can feel the bones and tendons move or twist under the pressure. A gsd can crush the bones and even take fingers off. She really isn't a bad dog. She listens well most of the time.


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## Curtis

Since this only happens on walks and seems to be distance based, could this just be extreme anxiety? I remember the first time I took Empire to the beach, once we got pretty far up shore, he jumped up and bit my shirt a few times trying to pull me back as if to tell me "let's go home". As soon as I turned around and started toward the car, he stopped. 

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## SunCzarina

*GSD puppy mauls out of nowhere*

(fixed your title)
Positive reinforcement. Positive only strikes me as only cookies and shunning for bad behavior. Bad behavior deserves a correction - either with a choke collar up behind the ears or a prong collar. 

(there's a big difference between a prong collar and a punch in the head. *_removed*_

Try the double handler thing with her. My pup is 14 months. She thinks she's funny to jump up and grab my son by the arm when he walks infront of her. My other handler is a 95lb east german shepherd that she's coupled to. He's not jumping so she CAN"T. I can't get the correction in fast enough to keep her off my son. She's a wily little creature. She doesn't mean him any harm, just gets excited but when he's out of a thick winter coat, it's going to leave a mark...


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## Chip18

Jlmaiorana said:


> The end collar worked for me but not my husband because he didn't use it. Honestly I don't want to rely on a collar. I want relationship. That's why we are trying the new trainer. When I say bone crushing I mean you can feel the bones and tendons move or twist under the pressure. A gsd can crush the bones and even take fingers off. She really isn't a bad dog. She listens well most of the time.


No one is attacking your dog here we are trying to help. It just sounds like you have a hard dog and he got a bad start with the wrong "trainer."

It happens we all make mistakes. It's how we deal with them that makes the difference!


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## DaniFani

selzer said:


> I am not against a correction. I would not punch a dog that is acting like this puppy is, nor hit it with a stun gun. Not when there are so many other ways to train a dog. Not when, this is happening in a situation where I can set it up.
> 
> Why not put a basket muzzle on this dog and walk it to get its exercise in, then take the muzzle off and play/work with it? The moment this dog gets crazy-aggressive, lightning fast, game over.
> 
> I'm sorry, but I can't be afraid of a six month old puppy. I certainly am not going to punch one. But I am not going to let it bite me either.
> 
> I think I am hearing that they were using e-collars and prong collars already on this puppy, and so now we have a puppy that needs a strong correction. Or needs to be outwitted.
> 
> We should be able to outwit a puppy. If we can't maybe we should go for a different kind of dog, maybe a setter.


Yeah, you could do all that....or you could take one walk, with a pinch, and correct (the appropriate level) and that could be the end. It also depends on the dog...sounds like corrections aren't phasing the dog, but only a trainer could know/see that.

I have a 6 month old...a 6 month old isn't a 12 week old. You're right, some dogs can't handle corrections. Some can. This is something neither you nor I can tell at ALL right now. That's why I think EVERY aggression thread should mainly be, "get help." Ending it there. I just laugh when someone is saying their dog is latching on, breaking skin, unexpectedly, and so many scoff at correcting the dog (yeah yeah.."punching" isn't PC and got a bunch of hackles raised...I wouldn't punch, a quick smack on the top of the head? Yeah, maybe.)

I don't believe in "time outs"...I don't think that's clear at all, nor efficient and fast. Thats just mho. Doesn't sound like OP is the Merciel type, that is going to put a LOT of time and effort into taking the long road with this dog. I just think, if the dog's as hard as it sounds, there is a fast way to fix this. But we'll never know, we can't see this dog. 

I hope Blitz comments, he deals with pet dogs with these kinds of problems all the time at his training facility. I bet he would have an action plan full of treats and time outs....SOrry, Just being a smart aleck. 

Oh, and please don't pull the "us older trainers used to do the old school corrections and now we're finding positive is better...you youngens will figure it out....blah blah" Every one of my trainers is old, lol...They are about BALANCE. Clear corrections, LOTS of re-building/pressure release. And every one of them places HUGE emphasis on relationship, bonds, and playing with your dog....and everyone of them not only has HUGE success under their belts, but they also have helped countless others achieve huge success with their dogs....that shouldn't be past tense...they're all still doing that.

Anywho, Carm said she hoped more would comment....this thread should get interesting. Honestly, the "bone crushing" comment was a little over the top and made me question the sincerity of the post.


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## SunCzarina

*GSD puppy mauls out of nowhere*



Chip18 said:


> It just sounds like you have a hard dog and he got a bad start with the wrong "trainer."
> 
> It happens we all make mistakes. It's how we deal with them that makes the difference!


I think so too. No matter how hard the pup is, it's still a puppy at 5 months old. As in PUPPY BRAIN, not the excuse.

(Tried to fix that title again)


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## llombardo

Regardless of what training this dog needs it needs to be started over. I could not use an e collar in my dog because it was already used on him and used wrong. It took a long time to get to a prong. I had to go the long road and use redirection and positive, no correction in the beginning. If the correction is done wrong it can amp the dog up. Once the dog is controllable, corrections can come into play. I have never had to yank any of my dogs, it just was never needed.


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## my boy diesel

*but we had her on the e-coller and a choker and she wasn't bad when using corrections. *

i am curious how the e collar and choke chain were used and when exactly they were employed

for instance was she a nippy or bitey puppy and the e collar and choke were brought out to correct her mouthyness?

and how were the tools employed?
was it one of those huge zaps when she'd __________ fill in the blank
or was it the lowest setting?

was the choke chain on a puppy used to hang her at all? 

you say positive but those tools are heavy duty and can be abused easily

others asked
do you nilif with her or does she have the run of the house?


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## jafo220

Sent from Petguide.com Free App

I think castlemaid hit it on the head. Cruz still does this at times right at the beginning of a walk. He is relentless. I was told by my trainer who has two working GSD's to grab thier collar with both hands under thier chin so they can't cintinue to bite you and dont let go until they calm down. At first they will throw a fit. They try anything to get you to let go. 

It is a big game to them. They dont understand the pain it causes you. So you have to make it into not such a fun game for them by grabbing the collar. Once they settle down, have a treat handy and put them into a sit and go through some obedience commands then try to continue your walk. Your basically telling them that it's not the time to play this game.


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## Chip18

Start here if he starts crazy crap "DOWN" should put an end to it! But he has to know how first!


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## boomer11

Some of you are so dramatic. I dont care if the dog is being serious or trying to play with me; if he bites down on my forearm to the point of me hurting, I would in a sense punch him in the head or stun gun the little brat. Dog needs to learn what's acceptable and what's not. Sounds like a dog that bullies the owner. Some of you borderline animal rights people call it abuse. I call it making the dog see very clearly in black and white. 

Putting the dog in time out? You people realize that this is a dog and not a human child right? It doesn't have morals. It's not going to sit in the corner and think about what it did wrong. Stop humanizing dogs. 

This isn't mouthing. This is biting. Hard enough that both op and husband are concerned . I don't care what is the reason for the dogs actions, If my dog did this to me I'd punish him so hard he'd remember why he got punished for WEEKS. The dog can freak out and do whatever he wants but putting his teeth on you should be off limits no matter the situation. Excited, scared, nervous, aggression, etc the reason doesn't matter. 

Btw he could very very easily have developed superstitious behavior if you used the ecollar incorrectly. It could be a million things in the environment that he associates with the shock so he freaks out.


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## Jlmaiorana

Am I sincere? Why would I lie about this? This is only one of my hands when I got home. That's before all the raised red streaks started to appear later. I felt her teeth crunch my met a car plus together. As if she was grinding. My husband says he feels the pressure force too. This isn't cool and we need to find a stop to this. That is why I am seeking advice here. To get several opinions of course they are quite diverse but thanks.


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## Hector3

Have you had the dog checked out medically?


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## Jlmaiorana

She knows sit and down very well but sometimes when she doesn't want to she will wine or bark as she slides to the sit position. We even got her sitting and waiting at every door. She sits until we throw the ball too. All without collars. But when she mauls there is no sit or down to her.


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## Chip18

Another link maybe helpful and we all pretty much understand you have your hands full. No one is attacking you or your dog plenty of us would love to have a pup like that!

When you've been around awhile you start to see the patterns, The big dawgs start snapping and everybody gets riled up. 

http://www.cesarsway.com/dog-training/discipline/Challenging-Puppy


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## Chip18

Jlmaiorana said:


> She knows sit and down very well but sometimes wh" oren she doesn't want to she will wine or bark as she slides to the sit position. We even got her sitting and waiting at every door. She sits until we throw the ball too. All without collars. But when she mauls there is no sit or down to her.


 There it is. Down means down! You have to convince your dogie you mean business "you" need to change how you do that.

Are you asking "down" or telling "DOWN"! Say ii once and grab the leash pull him down if he does not do it and repeat "DOWN"! When he knows your serious you'll see it in his eyes.


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## LoveDogs

I try not to get involved in these discussions for one reason- I am not a trainer by any means. I've had dogs my entire life and all different breeds. One thing I do know, when a dog is stressed they do one of the following:

1) turn their head away, eyes become white, and their body becomes very still
2) their posture become rigid, tails tuck, hair stands
3) they drool, pant harder, you'll sometimes hear a vocal tone to their breathing

A stressed dog will take no interest in toys or treats. Trying to get them to take interest in them may get you bit. Take a step back, observe your dog's behavior prior to the lunge, maybe there is a reason behind it all. Maybe there is something about the smell of the area that your dog does not like, maybe the house looks like the house they came from which scares them. I'm not humanizing the dog, I'm merely trying to understand the dog's reaction. If you go in unfamiliar territory, do you get the same reaction? If you're away from vehicles passing by, do you get the same reaction? If there are no other dogs, children, etc in the area is the reaction the same?

I am willing to bet that once the dog latches on to you, you immediately turn around and go home. I mean, who would want to continue to walk the dog when the dog is hurting you? Maybe the dog knows that when he/she is done walking, this is what he/she needs to do to go home. I don't know, but this is only my 2 cents worth. I am sure these questions have crossed your mind and you obviously want to figure it out but in the process keep all your fingers. 

I suggest go for a shorter walk, turn around come home. The next few times keep it that short walk. Lengthen it a bit the next time, turn around go home. The walk doesn't have to be long but the walk has to have you focus on the dog and the dog focus on you. Find the trigger, notice the warning sign no matter how subtle.


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## Jlmaiorana

Not yet Heater but it has crossed my mind


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## David Taggart

> with her jaws around my arm.


She's 6 months? Her jaws are itching, 6 months is the age when puppies start to bite hard because their jaw muscles need to be strenghthened. The wish to hang on something is absolutely natural, it's her jaws are asking for that, not her mental state. Do you provide enogh of big raw beef bones? Does she have chewing toys?
She doesn't have any toy to rip out of your hand, so, she rips your arm instead, she is playing! In order to teach her out of this get a ball on a rope, or simply a rope toy. Cry "A-a-a!" in a high pitched voice every time she exercises her jaws on your body, play and say "Good dog!" every time she hangs on the rope. Don't walk out of your house without a toy.


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## carmspack

Jlmaiorana said:


> The end collar worked for me but not my husband because he didn't use it. Honestly I don't want to rely on a collar. I want relationship. That's why we are trying the new trainer. When I say bone crushing I mean you can feel the bones and tendons move or twist under the pressure. A gsd can crush the bones and even take fingers off. She really isn't a bad dog. She listens well most of the time.


 Before we get into the meat and bones of this problem I suspect a lot of the dogs problems were formed by owner dynamics . 
This topic or parts of it - this reply - could / should go straight to early socialization .

I did ask on page 4 "probably many things in management that need to be changed.
how do you interact with the dog in the house? "

did not get an answer --- until later on page 8 "She knows sit and down very well but sometimes when she doesn't want to she will wine or bark as she slides to the sit position. We even got her sitting and waiting at every door. She sits until we throw the ball too. All without collars"

All without collars -- okay the story is starting to reveal.

before we go further get a collar on the dog . 

when I started this post it was yesterday - and then interruptions got in the way. Each time I came back just to see what was going on .

want to get to the bottom of this , then we have to start right at the beginning .

so breaking the suggestions into smaller nuggets.

.


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## David Winners

David Taggart said:


> She's 6 months? Her jaws are itching, 6 months is the age when puppies start to bite hard because their jaw muscles need to be strenghthened. The wish to hang on something is absolutely natural, it's her jaws are asking for that, not her mental state. Do you provide enogh of big raw beef bones? Does she have chewing toys?
> She doesn't have any toy to rip out of your hand, so, she rips your arm instead, she is playing! In order to teach her out of this get a ball on a rope, or simply a rope toy. Cry "A-a-a!" in a high pitched voice every time she exercises her jaws on your body, play and say "Good dog!" every time she hangs on the rope. Don't walk out of your house without a toy.


The OP already said the dog is not interested in toys in these situations.

David Winners


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## David Winners

I would not use a prong on this dog. I would use a slip lead or DD collar and calmly lift the dog until it calms down.

I think you need to take a serious look at how you live with the dog and implement a leadership program. 

David Winners


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## Blanketback

I would like to know how you "got her to sit" at the door, and before each ball toss. Because to me this is a puzzle - it doesn't make sense to me how you can have such absolute control over a puppy when she's in an excited state (like waiting for the ball to be thrown) an yet have her acting so out of control on a walk. I'd think it would be an either/or situation: either she's absolutely doing her own thing and is wildly untrained or she's learned to inhibit her natural inclinations, and so why then would it be difficult to stop her from latching onto your arm? This confuses me, OP.


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## JakodaCD OA

some good advice here and some bad advice..

*_removed*_

It's no wonder there are so many screwed up dogs out there 

There is something wrong here that this PUPPY is a seemingly angel at home, in class but can't go on a walk without almost breaking the owners arm? 

I also think it's a lack of exercise, HARD exercise, (and not just walks), a PUPPY, to many different 'training methods', and (sorry dont mean to be harsh or insulting), a lack of owner understanding.

If she likes tug toys/toys, (and I think one poster mentioned this),,teach her to CARRY ONE, take it with you on a walk, tug with her on a walk, teach her to keep her teeth to herself or a toy, and you don't need to punch/taser/ecollar to do it.


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## llombardo

JakodaCD OA said:


> some good advice here and some bad advice..
> 
> _*removed*_
> 
> It's no wonder there are so many screwed up dogs out there
> 
> There is something wrong here that this PUPPY is a seemingly angel at home, in class but can't go on a walk without almost breaking the owners arm?
> 
> I also think it's a lack of exercise, HARD exercise, (and not just walks), a PUPPY, to many different 'training methods', and (sorry dont mean to be harsh or insulting), a lack of owner understanding.
> 
> If she likes tug toys/toys, (and I think one poster mentioned this),,teach her to CARRY ONE, take it with you on a walk, tug with her on a walk, teach her to keep her teeth to herself or a toy, and you don't need to punch/taser/ecollar to do it.


You are correct with the toy , a ball would work great . And it's very unsettling that people are suggesting punching a dog or using any kind of violence. In fact I think those people should be entitled to a time out for suggesting something like that on a public forum


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## JakodaCD OA

I'm kinda ball paranoid, always worry an active dog/puppy is going to end up choking on it...Tugs which I can grab as well if I need to/want to, is the way I like to go


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## llombardo

JakodaCD OA said:


> I'm kinda ball paranoid, always worry an active dog/puppy is going to end up choking on it...Tugs which I can grab as well if I need to/want to, is the way I like to go


I always get a way bigger ball and one without a hole. I had a dog get his tongue stuck in the hole before. A medium size jolly ball that can be squeezed is good.


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## carmspack

right off the bat to get this out of the way , do I think the dog has something medically wrong -- answer NO.

at the core is a dog and owner that are mismatched .

there is nothing wrong with the dog . In other hands this dog likely could be stellar . Now is the age to harness this dogs particular temperament . 
Take electricity , a great power, and picture the that cord that you plug in and voila you have light and heat . Great . Now picture a power line , damaged and downed in a great storm, snapping and sparking , no predictable direction and deadly . 
Same power .

pedigree always of great interest -- if you prefer to keep it anonymous you can PM me . If you want I can keep it my eyes only , or if you permit I would share the information with one trusted person to "check my homework" .

how did you choose this pup?

were you clear on what you wanted and what your capabilities were .

have you contacted the breeder to get help from them.

why did you get a trainer ? because there was a problem?

what was the ratio of males to females in the litter?

your idea of positive training needs to be examined . 
luring and bribing are not positive training. You are begging the dog .
The dog looks at you when it does not want to comply , (maybe always) and the thought balloon would be "yup you and whose army?"

without that collar on the dog just walks away -- wins 

there is a phrase that I have and that is "the power to will and the will to power" 
you have to exert authority to get a yield / comply , and you have to be prepared and able and desire to control.
I will compel you to do this , and then I will reward when you have complied . 

being in control does not mean being harsh or withholding , definitely not cruel. Decisive . Able to command. Able to enforce . 

Tension free .

no anger , no punishing or time outs , no apologizing .

At the moment the dog has no respect . Lesson one is going to be two part , a handler (you) who is willing to control , and a dog who must learn to accept guidance from the handler.
Does not appear to be particularly biddable .


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## carmspack

I don't for one moment think the dog is an angel at home .
I think the dog , with no collar, moves away , and gets to do it's own thing . On the walk , the dog is confined , restricted, has to "work" with the OP . The dynamics between person and dog away from home are not consistent with the dynamics in the home . And so there is this challenge where the dog tries to assert itself . The dog trying to control the person through physical might and aggressive intimidation . It has found that this works. 

the whole thing is dysfunctional . 

wonder what happens to the dog once it gets home.


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## carmspack

You want a relationship .
You don't have one , at least not a functional one . Evidence "but has no recall whatsoever"

" Her favorite toy is no interest to her nor is high valued treats at this point. If I can even get it in her mouth, she just drops it and immediately attaches to my arm. "
"You throw the ball and she has no interest"

"but she does take off and bolts toward the house when we are on our way home and the house is in view. "

xxxxxxxxxx so home has to change . when you get home - crate time . The dog probably has too much freedom . Playing for hours in the home before the walk! why would it go on the walk and do what you want it to do. 

"There were no cars and when one is coming we always use a treat to get her to sit and it works good"

xxxxxxxx so the dog either becomes conditioned to sit every time a car is in site -- or will only sit when lured or bribed with a treat .


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## carmspack

doggy needs an attitude adjustment


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## Blanketback

The simple solution to me would be to get a sturdy 8' leather leash, and every time my puppy went for my arm I'd drape the extra length on the ground and step on it to prevent further jumping and biting, and not move until the puppy was calmed down. It takes patience but the puppy has to learn that unruly behavior gets them nowhere, literally.


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## carmspack

review your relationship with the dog in the house.

have one person in charge of training . 

start with simple obedience . ask for one thing at a time , and get it .
no confusion with multiple requests or begging the dog 

once the dog understands what you want of her , then when you have defiance and disobedience , then you use an effective correction

no more "bumming" around from the dog - 

get a good trainer -- see what resources your breeder is able to offer 

if it is a poor fit , this is still the age where the dog can be turned around and have a useful good life . 

maybe this is not the dog for you ?


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## Lilie

carmspack said:


> I don't for one moment think the dog is an angel at home .
> I think the dog , with no collar, moves away , and gets to do it's own thing . On the walk , the dog is confined , restricted, has to "work" with the OP . The dynamics between person and dog away from home are not consistent with the dynamics in the home . And so there is this challenge where the dog tries to assert itself . The dog trying to control the person through physical might and aggressive intimidation . It has found that this works.
> 
> the whole thing is dysfunctional .
> 
> wonder what happens to the dog once it gets home.


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## Blanketback

Another problem is letting the puppy bolt for the house. Not even getting into why it's not a good idea if you want to keep the tone of the walk in a calm atmosphere, but if you're worried about your neighbors then why are you allowing your puppy to be off-leash and not under your control, when they could step outside at any moment and then who knows what will happen. You can't allow this.


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## dpc134

Have you tried "NO" when she bites? If so, and she continues, then a correction is needed. If you are against physical correction, then I recommend that you immediately end the walk and crate her and don't feed her for 1 day (just water and bathroom breaks). This will not necessarily make the dog realize that biting was wrong and she is being punished, but more around you being the leader (or alpha). Leadership does not appear to be defined in this relationship.
This is just my opinion and it has worked for me with my limited experience.


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## carmspack

absolutely 

"Another problem is letting the puppy bolt for the house"

the dog is pushing the OP's buttons . It wants to go home . The OP frustrated, afraid , out of her own levels to manage , drags the dog home which is exactly what the dog wants . This is going to increase the bites , and may happen sooner along the walk.

If it were me I would be going opposite . Grab that collar , lift have the dog walk on the tip toes of the hind feet , and we are going to walk - where I want -- away from the house. The dog has to learn that this is counter productive to what it wants to gain . It seems to be a very smart dog . It learned quickly how to get what it wants and so will learn this . 

The dog would be skipping beside me , learning that it can't control me. Take some of the wind out of the sails . The moment the grip lessens you soften up a bit so the dog gets the message of how her action is shaping your behaviour.

I have experience . One dog in training I actually had people stopping their cars and asking if I needed help. No thanks . And on we went . Dogs like comfort . Make something uncomfortable and they will change. After a while the dog was "resigned" that this wasn't working . Released, put the four on the floor and we continued for the full 8.2 kms around my rural block (exactly 5 miles) . That was the day it changed.


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## selzer

I think your dog is scared while on the walk, and her response to being scared is to jump up and bite your arm and not let go. Ok, will humanize for a moment, and say, scary movie, a kid might jump up and hang on to its mother. This dog seems to be afraid and acting this way on the walk. 

Is there some reason you are not willing to consicer buying a basket muzzle and taking the dog on walks with it? Because if this is the ONLY time this dog is doing this, than preventing the biting, might be the thing to do, until you can get to a better place with the puppy. 

A basket muzzle will allow the dog to breath, pant, bark, exercise, but it will prevent the blood on your hand and arm. 

IF the dog is terrified from something, than correcting it with a punch to the head, or a zap with a stun gun, or an e-collar, or a prong correction, will not help. It will make the dog MORE afraid and sooner. 

If the dog is hyper, amped up, jerks with a prong collar, can actually intensify that. They use them sometimes in training and it can increase whatever is going on.

You really have to go some to HURT a dog. Their heads are hard as rocks. But a dog that can bounce back after a crushing blow can wilt under a minor correction. When we get crazy -- yell, smack at them, wave our ours, get angry, we LOSE respect or trust from our dogs. A dog is a natural follower of a strong leader. Strong leaders to not lash out, plead, get angry, act scared, over-react, freak out. Strong leaders stay calm and maintain control of the situation. 

If the dog needs exercise get a muzzle on the dog, and exercise the dog.


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## selzer

If the dog is terrified of something during the walk, then it can be perfectly fine at home in its comfort zone. 

It just seems more of a fearful reaction than anything else to me.


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## boomer11

selzer said:


> IF the dog is terrified from something, than correcting it with a punch to the head, or a zap with a stun gun, or an e-collar, or a prong correction, will not help. It will make the dog MORE afraid and sooner.


Completely disagree. A dog can act fearful. That's ok. It can whine, pull, bark, pee etc but biting is NOT ok. In what universe is it OK for a dog to bite it's owner because it's fearful? 

And a dog loses trust and respect when you correct/hit it? There is no respect here to begin with. Fair but firm earns respect. 

Also crating the dog sounds good in theory but do you really think the dog will remember why it's being crated by the time it gets home from the walk? A correction or punishment needs to come when the infraction occurs, not minutes or hours later.


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## Lilie

boomer11 said:


> Completely disagree. A dog can act fearful. That's ok. It can whine, pull, bark, pee etc but biting is NOT ok. In what universe is it OK for a dog to bite it's owner because it's fearful?


I don't think she was saying that it was OK for the dog to bite. She was giving a possible cause for the behavior - and that a severe correction could make the behavior worse.


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## Blanketback

The trouble with punching the dog (lol, I can't believe I just typed that) is that if the relationship between the owner and the dog has deteriorated to the point that the only correction that will get the dog's attention is so dramatic, then it might not even be safe to suggest it in the first place. Maybe the dog is playful, maybe the dog is fearful, maybe there's an electrical surge driving the dog bonkers, who knows why it's acting like that - they need a qualified trainer to help them work with this puppy.


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## Blanketback

I'm not squealing no, I'm just using a moderate voice to suggest that there's a slight chance that this puppy might decide to bite in protestation of a punch to the head. Or should I say, bite and mean it, since the biting's already an issue.


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## Liesje

It's not that I'm against the suggestion, but question why the dog is already biting on the owners each time it goes for a walk or to potty? A puppy testing me once or twice and then us having a little "chat" about that and it not happening again is one thing, but if the dog has some issue of trust or respect (I won't make conjectures about whether the dog is scared or is just a jerk), clocking the dog on the head in a moment of frustration is not really going to help at this point, it will probably just escalate things further. I think the owners need to start over. The dog is acting like a baby with no control so that's how it gets treated. Confinement, structure, consistency, predictable routine, lots of praise and rewards for the good, setup the dog for success, follow through with consequences. Doesn't sound like it's just an issue of getting the dog to walk around on a leash but the dog needs an attitude adjustment from square one.


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## Lilie

*_previously deleted post*_

Here's the funny thing. I'm a female. I've owned my own dogs for over 30 years. Those dogs include GSDs. NEVER has a GSD come up the leash at me. NEVER has a GSD attached it's mouth to my arm as I walked along. NEVER have any of my own GSDs showed ANY aggression towards me. NEVER have I EVER had to punch ANY of my dogs. If this is something you've had to do, perhaps you could learn something from all the high pitched ladies on this fourm.


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## selzer

boomer11 said:


> Completely disagree. A dog can act fearful. That's ok. It can whine, pull, bark, pee etc but biting is NOT ok. In what universe is it OK for a dog to bite it's owner because it's fearful?
> 
> And a dog loses trust and respect when you correct/hit it? There is no respect here to begin with. Fair but firm earns respect.
> 
> Also crating the dog sounds good in theory but do you really think the dog will remember why it's being crated by the time it gets home from the walk? A correction or punishment needs to come when the infraction occurs, not minutes or hours later.


Did I suggest time outs, or crating the dog? Ever. If the dog bit me in the middle of a walk, doing something once I am home is ridiculous -- except for maybe googling NILIF, and changing my leadership style -- as that might not be working with the dog.

I said that if the the dog bites, game over. I will stop the biting. If I have to muzzle a dog to stop the biting, I will muzzle the dog. If I need to correct with a firm voice and by removing my exposed parts from the dog's teeth, well that might be what I have to do. Depending on the circumstances, I might do a quick, firm correction. But if the dog is repeatedly acting a certain way at the same point during a walk, then I would figure out a way to outwit the dog, without punching or zapping it. 

If the OP wants a relationship with this dog, punching or zapping is not going to get them there. They need to project themselves as a leader, fake it until you make it people, it's a PUPPY. 

If you are afraid of the puppy, it is time to send it back to the breeder, before there is even more serious damage done. 

Over-reacting, punishing the dog physically for a fearful-reaction, will probably not make the dog more confident.


----------



## selzer

Lilie said:


> Here's the funny thing. I'm a female. I've owned my own dogs for over 30 years. Those dogs include GSDs. NEVER has a GSD come up the leash at me. NEVER has a GSD attached it's mouth to my arm as I walked along. NEVER have any of my own GSDs showed ANY aggression towards me. NEVER have I EVER had to punch ANY of my dogs. If this is something you've had to do, perhaps you could learn something from all the high pitched ladies on this fourm.


THIS! 

No, I have had countless GSDs, and some of them jump on me and make me pretty crazy on occasion, but they don't bite me. And I don't punch them. I don't use crates for punishment, either. I have had scaredy dogs jump on my back though, and that sounds like what this dog might be doing -- just different. The answer is not to beat them down when they do this, even if it hurts when a toenail gets you on the back. I usually do a "oh, cut that out" sort of think and keep on moving. It seems like it is a stage they need to get over. Having a big puppy crawling up your back is no joke, but it isn't aggression it is fear, and some dogs manifest fear in different ways.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

> Here's the funny thing. I'm a female. I've owned my own dogs for over 30 years. Those dogs include GSDs. NEVER has a GSD come up the leash at me. NEVER has a GSD attached it's mouth to my arm as I walked along. NEVER have any of my own GSDs showed ANY aggression towards me. NEVER have I EVER had to punch ANY of my dogs. If this is something you've had to do, perhaps you could learn something from all the high pitched ladies on this fourm.


I'll change this to 40 years..and totally agree..


----------



## Blanketback

I also follow people's progression with their dogs, and draw my own conclusions regarding their training styles in relation to how their dogs behave. I'm not knocking LF, but I wonder if his dog's extremely fearful reaction to the vet (to the point of needing sedation) may have been influenced in any way by something that some people think is just a perfectly normal way to train a dog - like punching them into submission. Maybe there's a connection there? Maybe not, but I've also had GSDs for 30 years without a single punching incident. You can't fault me for wondering.


----------



## Chip18

So far we have Punching, E Collar ,Prong Collar, DD Collar and Stun Gun! " Thinking" has been mentioned but not much of a response?? Man I'd love to have this dog myself.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

Chip, I'm with you, I like those feisty dawgs


----------



## SunCzarina

Blanketback said:


> I also follow people's progression with their dogs, and draw my own conclusions regarding their training styles in relation to how their dogs behave. I'm not knocking LF, but I wonder if his dog's extremely fearful reaction to the vet (to the point of needing sedation) may have been influenced in any way by something that some people think is just a perfectly normal way to train a dog - like punching them into submission. Maybe there's a connection there? Maybe not, but I've also had GSDs for 30 years without a single punching incident. You can't fault me for wondering.


I didn't catch the vet sedation incident but yeah, I've trained GSDs since I was 8 and never punched one of them. Slapped a couple noses to get their attention but punch my dog? Never. Also never had one freak out at the vet, growl and try to intimidate yes but freak out so bad they needed to be sedated, no. You're doing something wrong.


----------



## gsdsar

Wow this thread is crazy. 

I personally take issue with someone telling a complete stranger on an internet web board to punch, cattle prod, starve their dog. No one here knows the OP, no one here knows the dog, the training used, or actually seen the dog doing the bad behavior. Not only that, but no one can know the frame of mind of a person when they try suggestions like this. ANY PHYSICAL PUNISHMENT DONE OUT OF ANGER IS ABUSE. Period. Way more people than those participating in this thread, read this thread. Hence the big issue with giving advice like this on an open forum. What is to stop someone who reads this, thinking punching and shocking their 12 week old puppy for mouthing is a good thing to do. We have zero control how others take our advice when posted on this board. It's not safe to suggest. 

That said, I correct my dogs. My personal training style is very balanced, I think. Lots of shaping, teaching, proofing and then corrections. I don't have an issue with appropriately given and timed corrections. I just don't think that someone that is having this issue, is in anyway capable of dealing with it based on the advice on a forum. 

So while I may personally think the dog needs a firmer hand, I am going to recommend that this be dealt with in the presence of a capable trainer. Only then is someone there to actually witness the issue, and to guide the owner into a safe way to stop the behavior. I guarantee that the puppy is giving plenty if signs prior to the latching on, and a good trainer will spot them and help the OP to redirect or correct as needed at a level appropriate to the infraction. 


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----------



## glowingtoadfly

OP, my girl used to be pretty bad too. Just letting you know someone else has been there.


----------



## Jusdy

Here's a quick tip. Use either lemon juice or Cayenne pepper juice and rub along the sleeve of your coat or jacket. When the dog bites you the "sting" from the spicy pepper or sour lemon should make the dog let go. Lemon juice and cayenne pepper juice does sting the dog's mouth but it's better than shocking and beating her and the "sting" only last a good two minutes. I've used this tactic before with my brother's GSD and it worked fast.


----------



## Longfisher

gsdsar said:


> ANY PHYSICAL PUNISHMENT DONE OUT OF ANGER IS ABUSE.


So are you OK with giving a beating if you're afraid for your life and limb?

I'll defend myself not matter what you say. You'll be the one getting stitches repeatedly, not me.

LF


----------



## Lilie

Longfisher said:


> So are you OK with giving a beating if you're afraid for your life and limb?
> 
> I'll defend myself not matter what you say. You'll be the one getting stitches repeatedly, not me.
> 
> LF


You are missing the point. The point is to be smart enough when dealing with animals not to put yourself in the position to ever be afraid of life and limb. *said in a high, whiney voice*


----------



## Longfisher

SunCzarina said:


> I didn't catch the vet sedation incident but yeah, I've trained GSDs since I was 8 and never punched one of them. Slapped a couple noses to get their attention but punch my dog? Never. Also never had one freak out at the vet, growl and try to intimidate yes but freak out so bad they needed to be sedated, no. You're doing something wrong.


Dog was perfectly cool with vet until a tech stabbed a thermo into his ******* without vaseline or warning. Then it was game on from there on out.

_*removed insulting comments*_

Not everything that went before is BS. You do still breath air don't you? Or, is doing so too PC?

LF


----------



## Longfisher

Lilie said:


> You are missing the point. The point is to be smart enough when dealing with animals not to put yourself in the position to ever be afraid of life and limb. *said in a high, whiney voice*


I guess many of the rest of us simply don't have your esteemed intelligence, huh?

LF


----------



## Lilie

Longfisher said:


> I guess many of the rest of us simply don't have your esteemed intelligence, huh?
> 
> LF


Sadly, many, many folks on this forum are smarter than me. That's why I'm here. I like to learn.


----------



## gsdsar

Longfisher said:


> So are you OK with giving a beating if you're afraid for your life and limb?
> 
> I'll defend myself not matter what you say. You'll be the one getting stitches repeatedly, not me.
> 
> LF



Defending your life is a situation this OP is not in. The two are not comparable. 

The advice given should not be the same. 


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## Harry and Lola

Longfisher I'm not convinced of your skills and abilities to handle fearful/aggressive dogs and am concerned you would advocate such violence when dealing with these situations in a public forum like this website where you may get some easily led type people thinking all they have to do is start getting violent with their dog that may be exhibiting aggression from fear or abuse. I find your attitude scary, old fashion and disappointing.


----------



## Longfisher

Harry and Lola said:


> I find your attitude scary, old fashion and disappointing.


 I find that it works quickly and in most cases permanently.

LF


----------



## SunCzarina

Can we get a mod, someone needs to shut this fool LongFisher up before this thread goes completely astray of the OPs issue.

Yeah whatever, if you don't even know how to spell YUPPIE, I doubt you even know what it means. 

My dogs will do anything for my daughter's high pitched whiney dog trainer voice so it's kinda funny you bring that up. Otto's a hard dog too, he has to want to work for us squeeky voiced girls.


----------



## selzer

Longfisher, the OP's dog is a six month old GSD PUPPY. So you want her to treat it like a half lab, half mastiff starving dog that reacted to you over your over-reaction.


----------



## Lilie

I would really love to see a video of this pup's behavior. That would really be interesting to see. 

OP - is there any way you can get a video of this behavior? Perhaps as a learning tool for others as well?


----------



## SunCzarina

Meanwhile back on target, I think you're onto something Sue. Venus acted all brave and somewhat psycho at that age too. She's the most level headed, dare I say softest shepherd I've ever had. If she accidentally gets her toe stepped on she gives me this look like 'Mommy how could you?' 

At 6 months old, she was ready to take on the world. One day she completely flipped out and wanted to attack a brass statue in the park. Sgt Pepper was just standing there being a big brass man with a trumpet. Then it was park benches in styles she'd never seen. Random dogs. She wanted to go after them all. 

Viv will still try to jump and bite the kids arms when she comes to get them from school. Never does it at home, just on the walk home from school where she's so excited to see them and then they walk out in front of her where she tries to nail them. She's quick too, I can't get the timing right on the correction so I use what I have, couple her to Otto and teach the Berlin Wall to pull her away from the kids. 

Second fear period I think. Thankfully she GOT OVER THAT and is back to being the charming young shepherdess I have sleeping on the couch behind me.


----------



## selzer

Longfisher said:


> _* removed quote*_
> 
> 
> LF


Ya know what, my dogs do not freak out when I put a thermometer in their bum. I don't use Vaseline. And they don't when my vet or the vet tech does, or any scary thing. Do you know why? They don't because I am there and they trust me. Maybe they trust me because I do not punch them.


----------



## Longfisher

selzer said:


> Ya know what, my dogs do not freak out when I put a thermometer in their bum. I don't use Vaseline. And they don't when my vet or the vet tech does, or any scary thing. Do you know why? They don't because I am there and they trust me. Maybe they trust me because I do not punch them.


Maybe not.

LF


----------



## Konotashi

_*removed quote* *no name calling*_

That's a good way to make a dog bite your hand off, cause the dog to distrust you, and then you just have a psycho dog on your hands because you thought beating it was a better idea than actually fixing the problem.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

LF your situation was no where close to what the OP has talked about.

GSDSar posted this :


> Defending your life is a situation this OP is not in. The two are not comparable.
> 
> The advice given should not be the same


I have no problem giving a correction when a correction is due _*removed*_

As the quote above says, the advice given should not be the same.


----------



## Jusdy

Longfisher- It would be best if you just not comment anymore. It's obvious nobody wants your advice and frankly you're only digging a deeper hole for yourself with every post you make on this thread.


----------



## selzer

Whether advice is good or bad, calling a poster a fool or an idiot, will probably get this thread locked. Probably not the worst thing to happen anyway, but certainly we can disagree with someone without calling him names.


----------



## Jusdy

selzer said:


> Whether advice is good or bad, calling a poster a fool or an idiot, will probably get this thread locked. Probably not the worst thing to happen anyway, but certainly we can disagree with someone without calling him names.


I agree:thumbup:


----------



## jafo220

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As much as I hate to admit it. I have taken longfishers approach to an aggressive GSD one time some 30 yrs. ago and it had the desired effect. It basically put the dog into the pecking order. Don't get me wrong. Looking back, it may have been the wrong thing to do, but at the time being young and really dumb, it seemed logical in the situation. The situation was much like longfishers. I don't condone hitting a dog as you can do long lasting damage. Hitting can cause trauma depending on how hard you hit. But all bets are off if the dogs intent is to do major harm to you or someone else.

I've done training mostly myself. But those were softer less aggressive GSD's. Cruz is alittle like the OP's. He is making progress as he matures and I work with him. As carmspack mentioned, there is nothing wrong with the dog. It lies with the handler. Thats where I'm at. The training classes are as much for me as they are for the dog if not more. This is the first workingline "hard" GSD I've owned and he is my 5th GSD. 

The collar technique that carmspack mentioned I also use. It makes sense to take control of the walk. I also have found once you gain control, some turn arounds also let them know your in charge not them. But when he gets like the OP's dog. It's two hands on the collar and he settles down pretty quick now. 

I also like someones idea of standing on the leash. For people like my wife who are physically unable to wrangle a large dog by the collar, this is good. My wife uses the sitting on the dog technique, and it works well for her. It calms him right down and puts her in charge of the situation.


----------



## selzer

Sitting on the dog?

What does that entail?


----------



## jafo220

selzer said:


> Whether advice is good or bad, calling a poster a fool or an idiot, will probably get this thread locked. Probably not the worst thing to happen anyway, but certainly we can disagree with someone without calling him names.




Sent from Petguide.com Free App

While I understand your point, it would be an injustice to others who may be following this thread as there are many more good posts than not so good. Yours, castlemaid's, carspack's are all top notch stuff. There are other good ones too. This is definitely a worth while discussion. 

Just delete the offensive stuff.


----------



## selzer

jafo220 said:


> Sent from Petguide.com Free App
> 
> While I understand your point, it would be an injustice to others who may be following this thread as there are many more good posts than not so good. Yours, castlemaid's, carspack's are all top notch stuff. There are other good ones too. This is definitely a worth while discussion.
> 
> Just delete the offensive stuff.


Sometimes a discussion goes from being good information for the problem in question, to individuals arguing a point, getting defensive, arguing for the purpose of arguing. And when that happens, they will generally close the thread because they haven't gotten us all fitted for e-collars yet.


----------



## Longfisher

Konotashi said:


> You're a special kind of idiot, aren't you?


i guess so. But this idiot's 17 - 18 month old GSD at 110 lbs. is not clamping down on my arm with his razor sharp teeth after I used a prong collar and an e-collar for just walking him now is he?

He walks at perfect heel when we're out no matter how far and no matter how long and no matter how dark...as long as I want him too do so.

And, I ain't commin' on this board to find out how to keep him from eating me and my spouse, am I?

OP, rise to the occasion. He's trying to hurt you. Show him whose the boss and what is and ain't tolerated. It'll be over in seconds and the relief you'll feel will last for years.

LF


----------



## selzer

_*removed*_

I do not remember reading anything about DWs dog beating incident, how old the dog was, what the dog did, what type of dog it was, etc. 

But the OP has a puppy, and they are asking advice on a dog forum. The chances are better that this is a wienie dog than a super sharp military/police prospect. Since we cannot diagnose that without seeing the dog, suggesting punching a six month old puppy seems irresponsible.

I also have to admit, that the majority of dogs whose owner say they are defiant, or stubborn, or hard, are usually confused, scared, handler sensitive dogs that are shutting down under the handler treatment. Too many defiant, stubborn, hard puppies out there, and too many people too quick to bring out the big guns against them.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

The thing is, these owners do not sound like they are really 'up' on dog behavior or training (and thats not meant as an insult),,with that, I think telling someone to punch the dog in the head is not good advice to owners who aren't experienced. 

THere is a way to impart advice and then there is a way to impart advice,


----------



## boomer11

Lol I meant he basically got in a fight with her. I think pinned her down and punched her a few times. You people should go read his blog about when he first got Fama and their adventures. It would be really eye opening to all you over dramatic pet people who's never dealt with a strong dog. 

I'm not relating his dog to this dog but isn't that abuse? Did you guys read that thread where the k9 handler picked the dog up above his shoulders and slammed it into the ground? All these military and police abusing dogs huh? Pet people have allllll the answers. 

Not everything is abuse. I'd rather get the point across once instead of nagging a dog for months. What the op needs is a trainer because I'm positive the problems with her dog go way deeper than just walks.


----------



## Doc

Don't TAZE me bro. Maybe they should add tazing and head punches to the sporting events?


----------



## Lilie

Doc said:


> Don't TAZE me bro. Maybe they should add tazing and head punches to the sporting events?


:spittingcoffee:


----------



## Lilie

Longfisher said:


> So, how do your credentials compare to those, my non-canine friends.
> 
> LF


So in other words, you've got ziltch.


----------



## selzer

Lilie said:


> So in other words, you've got ziltch.



That's what it sounds like to me. But you put it so eloquently.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

Lillie LOL,,


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Something our behaviorist recommended was an Elizabethan cone, a clicker, and a lick stick. Step, click, lick. And the dog can't mouth with a plastic e-cone on. Got our girl out of the habit.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

OP, I'd show you pictures of my bruises from her lovely phase in solidarity, but I can't post them from my IPod. Sounds like you've got quite the fireball <3


----------



## SunCzarina

Meanwhile back to the OP, hello? Did you try anything different today on your walk.

I still think Sue's right, the pup is in her second fear period and something is freaking her out.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Sue is Selzer, right? All of her comments are well thought out and a pleasure to read


----------



## SunCzarina

Yes, that Sue. Her comments lead me to remember Venus' behavior at that age. It would have seemed pretty aggressive to someone who hadn't had 7 shepherds before her but Viv is one of the least human agressive dogs of the lot. And if I punched her, she'd look so hurt. LOL when she was learning to catch at 6, 7 months old (she had to be taught, it's not where her talents lie), I'd throw it right at her, the ball would hit her off the nose and she'd give me the most pathetic You Hit me! look.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Yeah, we were told by our vet and behaviorist that our girl's mouthing was not aggression. Nerves, being over excited, frustrated, wanting to go home.. What also helped was learning her signals and stepping on the leash.


----------



## selzer

SunCzarina said:


> Yes, that Sue. Her comments lead me to remember Venus' behavior at that age. It would have seemed pretty aggressive to someone who hadn't had 7 shepherds before her but Viv is one of the least human agressive dogs of the lot. And if I punched her, she'd look so hurt. LOL when she was learning to catch at 6, 7 months old (she had to be taught, it's not where her talents lie), I'd throw it right at her, the ball would hit her off the nose and she'd give me the most pathetic You Hit me! look.


LOL! I know we aren't supposed to treat them like they were made out of glass, but I usually teach them to catch with a soft felt ball. Mine have really soft mouths and can be very gentle. I like that about them.


----------



## DaniFani

boomer11 said:


> *Didn't everyone's hero mod David winners whoop his dogs behind when she bit him? I'm talking punches? Why isn't anybody giving him a hard time? Isn't that abuse?*
> 
> Don't be so short sighted. There are dogs that are incredibly sharp and have their own agenda and have no problem going up the leash. Giving a really hard and memorable correction is warranted given the situation and if the dog can handle it.
> 
> I would trust a video. I don't trust the Ops view because it's her dog so it's hard to be objective.


No doubt! Winners was my first introduction to "bouncing" a dog...obviously extreme cases and in working circles. The dog is PICKED UP OVER THE HEAD OF THE OWNER AND DROPPED TO THE GROUND....no one said boo about that.

There are plenty of rough dogs out there, if you haven't seen it, you haven't seen it. 

Yeah, OP's dog is a 6 month old. It's also breaking skin and getting away with murder. Like I said before *balance*. I do not think there is a magic age that corrections are suddenly "okay." Depends on the dog. Yeah, I'm sure a lot of you have never had to correct a dog in all your pet owning years. That's great, there was probably a foundation in place that lead to never having an issue and you had a dog that didn't require it.

Those involved in training PROBLEM dogs, have differing opinions. Man oh man did the lynch mob come out on LF. It's fascinating to see who the MOB will go after, and when the same advice (or more severe) comes from one of the "big dogs" (still a stranger on the internet), that same mob is as quiet as a church mouse. Silly and entertaining.


----------



## SunCzarina

Oh please, I have a dog who's so hard I ended up in conversations with Lou Castle about getting him to pay attention to me on walks. The only solution Lou had was e-collar. Nope, not zapping my dog, I figured out how to get into Otto's big thick skull without one. Otto's still a stubborn head at almost 6 and he wants me to walk faster than I want to walk but he's not eating my kids or walking around like a liability. Yes he is a pet. Sorry but 90% of the dogs here are PETS.


----------



## Blanketback

Something tells me that when David sees this thread, he's not going to be in a good mood when he sees you (boomer & Dani) equating his training methods with punching a puppy in the head - and advocating it under the guise of 'what a real working dog needs.' LOL!


----------



## SunCzarina

selzer said:


> LOL! I know we aren't supposed to treat them like they were made out of glass, but I usually teach them to catch with a soft felt ball. Mine have really soft mouths and can be very gentle. I like that about them.


Viv came here knowing what a ball was, picked one right up as soon as she got in my yard. She loved chasing a ball but catch it, that took months! Remember Thing One and Thing Two of Crooked Creek, the black twin puppies Karen had like 4 years ago? The more athletic Thing (LOL) is Venus' mother. So she was born with the skills, just not the concentration.

I got exactly what I asked for in Venus, an athletic dog who would stand up for herself but not challenge Otto. Otto doesn't like bitchy bitches and after Morgan, I didn't want another uberbitch. 

It was just weird for me to have a pup who had to be taught how to catch. The last puppy I raised was Otto, Mr Ball Drive, 9 weeks old catching a ball. Otto does a trained seal trick where he likes me to throw him a ball so he can bash it with the soccer ball he already has in his mouth. 

He can nail the craziest throws in mid air and then there's his minion who lets the ball go between her ears. She's been studying him though, she really wants to catch that 10" jollyball in mid air like he can.


----------



## DaniFani

Blanketback said:


> Something tells me that when David sees this thread, he's not going to be in a good mood when he sees you (boomer & Dani) equating his training methods with punching a puppy in the head - and advocating it under the guise of 'what a real working dog needs.' LOL!


Omg....no one is equating it to the "punching a dog in the head." For goodness sake. Winners already commented, didn't he? I think he said corrections, fairness, probably not a prong, but a slip lead? Lots of structure, obedience, more balance in the home. Which is what I agreed with and most others said too, only my advocacy has always been with the FIND A TRAINER, mindset.

My response about the bouncing was in the response to "any correction done out of anger is abusive."...the name calling LF for his corrections to the dog that attacked him. I said if my dog jumped up and LATCHED onto my arm...yeah, I'd probably smack him in the head. 

Why is it always the pet people that are sooooo dramatic about their delicate flowers?? Yeah, dog should have had a better foundation and this never should have been an issue...OP is beyond that....now it needs fixed, can't go back to foundation work from 10 weeks old.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Welp....


OP who, based on her previous 'is it a Malinios mix' thread and pics, looks to have a working line pup. 

They'll need to find a 'positive only' trainer (per husbands wishes) that knows how to deal with what sounds like a higher drive pup (eta which will be much harder) or find a trainer that uses more food/luring M. Ellis method where no force/compulsion is usually used with puppies.

Either way, OP, please don't get stuck on the 'positive only' training as the litmus test of whether a trainer is good or not. There are PO trainers that are not good trainers and they will blame lack of results on everything else. Find a trainer that is used to working with higher drive dogs, preferably involved in bite sports and that will try to keep things as positive as possible with your puppy. 

Really, the key I found woking with my dogs is finding the right trainer who can help guide you through the stages with you and your husband. It truly is the key that unlocks positive progress .... Which is more important then rigidly sticking to a training ideology.


----------



## onyx'girl

boomer11 said:


> Don't be so short sighted. *There are dogs that are incredibly sharp and have their own agenda and have no problem going up the leash. Giving a really hard and memorable correction is warranted given the situation and if the dog can handle it. *
> 
> I would trust a video. I don't trust the Ops view because it's her dog so it's hard to be objective.


 I agree, but it is the last resort and the dog that is dealt that hand is a dog that can handle it. And whoever is on the end of the leash had better know what they are doing. 
In this case with a *6 month old puppy!* I don't know if a hard and memorable correction is necessary. BUT, there are those dogs that need a come to Jesus meeting, and best to do it when the time comes, instead of letting things get more and more out of control. 
There's someone I train with that had a pup that showed food aggression. The owner had a very good trainer(and trusted close friend) take the pup (at about 5-6 months of age) for a bit to try to fix it. She had to make the puppy understand that it isn't acceptable to chase and bite the hand that feeds it.
I do find that carrying a ball is a great pacifier for the dog I have that bites the other dogs. She knows that ball is a necessity.


----------



## selzer

Excuse me if I am on ground I really don't know about, but when you have a military working dog or police dog prospect, you start when they are in the litter, building their confidence, bite stuff, with tugs, flirt poles. I knew someone whose kids were raising a police dog. She told they they NEVER corrected for biting or tearing at the walls, etc. because the dog would have to do those things. 

If you have a puppy bite sleeve and are planning on this dog doing this stuff for real. You are going to know a lot about the temperament of that dog, what in its genetics gives you the traits you see, and what you might need to do with this dog to get them trained, may not be the same as what most people need to do with their pets. 

You want a dog who will bite though punches and kicks, and continue to go go go. Not you, but you will have raised such a dog to be uber confident all the time, to use its brain, to be a little head strong -- you want that in that kind of a dog. 

If such a dog going through it adolescent stage feels that it might challenge you for some reason, than I suppose backing down could be the worst thing to do. Again, these are waters I do not tread in. But such a trainer of such dogs ought to be very well versed in how to train them. And such a trainer of such dogs, probably would not tell you and me to punch our puppy or hit them with a stun gun.


----------



## SunCzarina

*removed name calling not allowed*


----------



## SunCzarina

*removed name calling not allowed*


----------



## DaniFani

*removed*:shrug:


----------



## Blanketback

DaniFani said:


> Man oh man did the lynch mob come out on LF. It's fascinating to see who the MOB will go after, and when* the same advice *(or more severe) comes from one of the "big dogs"...


You wrote it. If you don't mean it, then say so.


----------



## DaniFani

*removed arguing back and forth*


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## Liesje

My issue with a lot of the suggestions here is not that they wouldn't work in the moment, but I don't think the issue is really the PUPPY biting at the owner while outside. I think it is more a general lack of control and lack of respect, so the answer is not just going to be rubbing clothes with pepper or smacking the dog on the head one time. I have NO problems being assertive with dogs (yes even puppies, and my puppies don't get a free pass on bad behavior just because they are young, they are SMART!), but when you have a puppy from the get-go, it's so much easier to do that from day one by shaping the behavior you want, making the behaviors you don't want impossible/incompatible by setting up the dog for success, so that 4 months later when the dog is now 6 times as big and 66 times as strong as he was at 8 weeks old, he isn't treating you like a chew toy or a doormat. That is why regardless of how the OP wants to correct this behavior as it happens, I think there will need to be a more complete approach to how this dog is trained and managed. JMHO


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## DaniFani

Blanketback said:


> You wrote it. If you don't mean it, then say so.


That was in reference to Carm saying LIGHTENING correction....she said "a lot won't like this"....but she would correct the dog...even string it up on it's tip toes to keep it walking...again...no one said boo.


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## selzer

We both used the word "uber" at the same time. 
It's not a word I use all that much.

Are you thinking to me???

That's kind of scary, ya know. 



SunCzarina said:


> Viv came here knowing what a ball was, picked one right up as soon as she got in my yard. She loved chasing a ball but catch it, that took months! Remember Thing One and Thing Two of Crooked Creek, the black twin puppies Karen had like 4 years ago? The more athletic Thing (LOL) is Venus' mother. So she was born with the skills, just not the concentration.
> 
> I got exactly what I asked for in Venus, an athletic dog who would stand up for herself but not challenge Otto. Otto doesn't like bitchy bitches and after Morgan, I didn't want another uberbitch.
> 
> It was just weird for me to have a pup who had to be taught how to catch. The last puppy I raised was Otto, Mr Ball Drive, 9 weeks old catching a ball. Otto does a trained seal trick where he likes me to throw him a ball so he can bash it with the soccer ball he already has in his mouth.
> 
> He can nail the craziest throws in mid air and then there's his minion who lets the ball go between her ears. She's been studying him though, she really wants to catch that 10" jollyball in mid air like he can.


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## RocketDog

Hey Jenn. Expert level means reaching the one year mark with your dog, don't you know? First working line dog, a little Schutzhund training, means you're not a pet person. You're an Expert!


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## JakodaCD OA

I think that is enough. 

I doubt the OP will be coming back here, to much junk to sift thru that, as usual has nothing to do with the original post.

Like I said earlier, there's advice and then there's advice.



I correct my dogs, and I'm not a wimp who thinks I'm going to hurt my dogs feelings, but I also know when I give a good correction what the result is going to be..

I don't think telling a novice/inexperienced owner to punch their dog in the head or taser them is good advice.


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## Blanketback

Dani, no one said boo because it was sound advice. To administer a correction and keep walking, to give the dog no choice in the matter except to carry on with the walk. How can you possibly mix that up with a punch to the head?!


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## glowingtoadfly

RocketDog said:


> Hey Jenn. Expert level means reaching the one year mark with your dog, don't you know? First working line dog, a little Schutzhund training, means you're not a pet person. You're an Expert!


Bahahahahahaha


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## DaniFani

Blanketback said:


> Dani, no one said boo because it was sound advice. To administer a correction and keep walking, to give the dog no choice in the matter except to carry on with the walk. How can you possibly mix that up with a punch to the head?!


But an all out smack is ok?? Sorry LF said "punch," I don't think I could punch my dog, I don't know that I've ever punched anything in my life. Everyone is so caught up on "punch" but if the same level of force was given with an open hand and called a "smack" it's okay...I just don't get it. Anyway, I concede...you're all right. OP send your dog to one of these folks. They'll fix it proper.


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## G-burg

There's some crazy stuff in this thread... It's unbelievable..

I hope the OP seeks out a good trainer that can help them get their pup under control and to have a better understanding at what's really going on..


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## Liesje

As a mod I'm kind of treating this thread like I do my almost-6 month old puppy when he's being annoying....I just completely ignore!! I guess I thought it went without saying that treating a 6 month old PUPPY like a stray mastiff attacking a grown man repeatedly over food is beyond the realm of apples to oranges... I'm looking at my puppy right now imagining what he'd have to do to cause me to clock him in the head, taze him, or string him up by his collar so his toes are skipping.....coming up blank.....


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## Blanketback

I'm not being abusive. Unless me questioning LF's dog's behavioral problems is considered abuse?
I do think there may be a correlation, that's all. Problem behavior starts somewhere.

ETA: I think I just got it, Dani - did you mean that you thought Carmen's "lightning" was a literal strike???


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## glowingtoadfly

Liesje said:


> As a mod I'm kind of treating this thread like I do my almost-6 month old puppy when he's being annoying....I just completely ignore!! I guess I thought it went without saying that treating a 6 month old PUPPY like a stray mastiff attacking a grown man repeatedly over food is beyond the realm of apples to oranges... I'm looking at my puppy right now imagining what he'd have to do to cause me to clock him in the head, taze him, or string him up by his collar so his toes are skipping.....coming up blank.....


Yeah... Coming up blank for my almost two year old and nine month old too. Feel bad for some people's dogs...


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## selzer

DaniFani said:


> You're right selzer, I've jumped on that train against you in some intense aggression threads...sorry. You have success with your dogs, can't deny that.
> 
> Don't think I've ever told you to watch your back because you "picked the wrong dog to bark at." That's a first for me....I just hate that the disagreeing has to turn into name calling, bolstering the "ranks" of people to start beating the other down...guess I've done my fair share. Everyone needs some time on the chopping block. And then there's the lovely's that ONLY come on to throw a passive aggressive punch, then run back to their corners. Those are my favorites.


I've been on this thread since it started. I was in the conversations with LF. And I am here now. But I do not call people names -- tried to head that off earlier. And it was kind of working. 

We've had some pretty interesting exchanges in the past, and I have felt that some of them were pretty passive aggressive, and not on my part. But whatever, that is not what this thread is about. 

I think this is a puppy who is scared and jumping up and biting, in its canine language saying, GET ME OUT OF HERE!!!! SAVE ME!!! But because I cannot see the dog, I cannot be sure about that. 

None of us have seen the dog. 

If the dog is actually saying, "I'm not listening to you anymore and you can't make me, we're going now, and if you won't I will keep biting your arm until we are home," then maybe giving this dog a solid, strong correction will do what needs to be done. But what if it is actually scared and reacting strongly. 

What will smacking it or punching it do?

Frankly, it is true, little taps are annoying and it takes something significant to stop a dog enough to zap it out of zone. So giving it a quick, minor slap isn't going to phase a dog in this mode and you will appear weak if the dog notices it at all. 

If you do something bordering on abuse, you are likely to scare the dog pretty badly, and maybe crush some of the trust/relationship/bond you want. 

Which means the OP NEEDS a trainer and not to listen to people on this site telling her to punch or taze her dog.


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## sehrgutcsg

*Wow!*

I've been on dozens of discussion Forums since before 2002. I've seen just about every behavior known to man. As someone looking in, from the outside, and as a newer member here, who try's to respect everybody opinions.. I feel that anybody with a brain who takes the advice of people who sit and bark at the computer all day is naive. It was Chuck Norris who said; and I quote; "I never criticize anybody else for any reason because I am constantly working on improving myself." Sorry to the good one's and the mods. the advice on the Forum besides; "Coconut Oil" is pretty sad and such bickering. Nice I met someone HERE, I can really count on as the nonsense; is as thick a Tully Fog... :help: 

I'm learning you people don't like each other...:wild:

Improve and educate your animals, humans seem to be immune to Internet education..


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## boomer11

Blanketback said:


> Something tells me that when David sees this thread, he's not going to be in a good mood when he sees you (boomer & Dani) equating his training methods with punching a puppy in the head - and advocating it under the guise of 'what a real working dog needs.' LOL!


Please tell me where I said any of this? Some people just read what they want to read. I was speaking about hitting a dog being abuse. Your reading comprehension clearly needs a lot of work. 

There are two very different lines of thinking here and neither will see the other side. The only laugh out loud ridiculous advice was to taze the dog. That had to be a joke right? But physically correcting the dog yourself whether it's with a closed or open fist or your foot or even head butting the dog I think is sound advice. 

A lot of you never have to deal with a difficult dog because you've raised it right and it learns do's and dont's along the way. When you get a difficult dog that never has been reprimanded, then the training is more difficult.


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## David Winners

I will address this more later, as I've been up for 29 hours.

There is a big difference in working with a puppy, and working with a 4 year old KNPV dog with a history of street bites and handler aggression. 

I think the OP needs a good trainer.

Time for bed 

David Winners


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## Lilie

DaniFani said:


> You can't have a differing opinion around here without being called abusive, unintelligent, inexperienced, etc...Can't believe this nonsense hasn't been shut down.


.....Or being accused of having a mob mentality. Or being part of the "Pet Population" like it's a bad thing. If you thing that because you feel you have a working dog and that punching a puppy in the head is an accepted training tool, then sadly you've missed the boat. 

I don't think anybody disagrees that this 6 month old puppy is exhibiting behavior that shouldn't be tolerated. 

I think where the line has been drawn in the sand is punching the puppy in the head to correct it.


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## JakodaCD OA

*I am going to say this only ONCE.*

*I have reopened this thread after deleting/editing, the name calling, OT postings and other things that I felt were irrelevant to the orignal Topic.*

*If anyone wishes to offer advice/suggestions to the original poster, do so. *

*I reopened it because there is some good advice here that the OP may have missed or wishes to respond to.*

*The first post I see with name calling or going OT, I'll close the thread for good.*

*I've left a couple of posts re: David Winners that he can respond to if he chooses..*

*With that PLAY NICE or Don't Play at all..*


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## David Winners

I have no idea what the Hero MOD statement was about. Plenty of people have differing opinions from me and challenge what I have to say. 

If you feel that I have been abusive to dogs, that is your opinion and you are certainly entitled to it. I would disagree.

Every time I have mentioned getting physical with a dog, I have explained the situation, my reason for doing so, and strongly cautioned about anyone doing such things with a dog. I have worked hundreds of military dogs. All of these dogs are 18 months or older. The majority are protection trained, or at least tested. Many are kennel raised dogs from KNPV breeders in Europe. Out of these hundreds of dogs, there is a very, very small percentage of dogs that I have been physical with. Sometimes it is necessary IMO. If you haven't experienced working an imported green dog with an attitude, you don't really have something to compare it with.

By comparison, most military and police trainers I am familiar with still train most behaviors through compulsion, with corrections being a big part of everyday training. 


To the OP: I recommend an evaluation with a professional trainer who is willing to spend the time necessary to develop and help you implement a leadership program that will change how you interact with the dog in daily life. You may find that the problem behavior goes away if the dog has a clear picture of who you are as a leader and what is expected of the dog. 

I like the idea of a muzzle on walks to keep you safe. I also suggest avoiding the behavior until you can get some help with the situation. There are many ways to exercise your dog mentally and physically that will avoid long walks.


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## Courtney

OP- where does your dog sleep? Does she have free reign of the house, up & down on furniture with the family as she pleases? Generic questions but I'm curious of the snapshot of how she ranks himself.


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## selzer

I really hope they can post that video.


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## Lilie

selzer said:


> I really hope they can post that video.


I couldn't agree more!


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## SunCzarina

Courtney said:


> OP- where does your dog sleep? Does she have free reign of the house, up & down on furniture with the family as she pleases? Generic questions but I'm curious of the snapshot of how she ranks himself.


To add to what Courtney said, take a look at NILIF - nothing in life is free. Dog has to work for every privedge. 

Best behaved dogs who ever lived in this house were the rescues/fosters who were strictly NOT ALLOWED upstairs to the master's dens and certainly not allowed to butthead into the bathroom in use. Until they earned that privilege through exceptional behavior.


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