# TOTW Vs Orijen Puppy



## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

Ok,... Zeva's getting low on OP and they need to order it in where I get it.. no one else around here sells it. I haven't heard from him yet and we're getting ANOTHER snow storm coming and I don't want to get stuck rashening out food. 

I picked up a bag of TOTW, prairie. It's only 5lbs just to try it out. I opened it up and sprinkled a little bit in her bowl and she inhaled it. Mind you, there was still some Orijen in the bowl, which she gobbled up too. I added a little more, again the same thing. She's not a big eater.. she eats but she doesn't come running for it. She'll take a few bites and tries to graze on it. I don't really want to do that. I'd like for her to eat and be done w/ it. I'd hate to think that if we're out somewhere that she's hungry, you know? 

Anywhooooo... I see that the protein is slightly lower on the TOTW than the Orijen puppy so I guess it's ok to feed her this. I couldn't find the puppy formula.. not sure if they make one. 

Another thing is the cost factor. It's cheaper. We can afford the OP, if we HAVE too, but it would be nice to spend a little less, you know. Also, She likes canned added, maybe I can save on that too. She usually has a bit of loose stools at the end and I assume that's from the canned?


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## Prinzsalpha (Jul 6, 2005)

My poochies love TOTW. We serve Salmon and Sweet Potatoe as my dog has allergies to kibble chicken. That is the only one that doesnt have Chicken. Why fight it...lol ...feed it.


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## Powell (Oct 13, 2006)

TOTW says "All Stages"


Powell


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## balakai (Feb 9, 2005)

You need to check calcium/phosphorus levels, not protein--if I remember correctly, the Prairie is too high for large breed puppies.

Also, keep in mind that TOTW is much lower in calories than Orijen. You may need to feed more of it than the Orijen--think price per feeding instead of price per pound.

~Kristin


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I would rather go with Wellness super5mix large breed puppy than TOTW. The calhos levels are supposed to be correct. It does contain barley, so not a grain free.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Be sure your Orijen puppy is for large breed puppies. They have an LB formula. My other dogs eat TOTW sometimes, but not the pup.


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## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

It's just Orijen Puppy. It's not Large Breed. How much of a difference is there? I've been weighing her every week. This past week she gained 2lbs. The week before was like 3. that's normal for her.... around in those. I finally got rid of her worms too, so that helps. 

I'm just getting annoyed w/ this whole food thing. I'm obsessing about feeding grains. I was going to try Chicken soup for the dog lovers, but they were out of the puppy. I dragged three kids and a dog around to two stores today reading labels and trying to decide in 2' of snow! I'm sick of winter, sick of obsessing. Sometimes I think it was better when I didn't know better! *sigh* I'm getting frustrated!


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## georgiapeach717 (Jan 28, 2010)

i understand your frustration. I have now read almost 35 pages of threads in their entirety in 2 day on this matter. I have 40 sample bags of food on my desk, 5 pages of notes, and a headache.

I think I have found my food choice, but I am still quadruple guessing myself.

Clover in the meantime is more than happy to hork down his own poop...yet I have had kibble on my brain for 36 hours straight!!


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## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

What did you settle on? I tell you what? Once I put Zeva on Orijen she stopped eating her own poop, so that might be an easy problem for you to fix.


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

TOTW is not well designed for large breed pups. it is typical of Diamond to be irresponsible and label it an all life stages food, IMHO.

Orijen Puppy Large isnt much different than the Puppy formula in regard to Ca levels or Ca ratio, but if its available, you might as well use that instead of the Puppy.

this is just my experience, but when i fed TOTW for about a month, i had to feed a fair amount more of it than i did the Orijen (likely due to the Orijen having about 100 more claories per cup). in the end, i calculated that the TOTW barely saved any money (less than $5 for a month) vs a food with more meat, more calories, and made by a company i (currently) trust.

really, though, no need to get caught up in the whole grain free thing. if my pup could have handled grains, i would have been fine feeding her something like Eagle Pack Holistic Large Breed Puppy or Innova Large Breed Puppy.


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## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

I'm not sure the guy can get it. He has a hard time getting just regular Orijen Puppy. 

Evo was 'mislabled' also


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: georgiapeachGSD
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Yes, there is a difference and Orijen puppy is not recommended for the large breed puppy. 

I too think I would find a good large breed puppy formula ahead of trying to find grain free.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

You could also go RAW with Do It Yourself... and the calc/pho ratio will be like nature intended. I used to be a "grainy" guy but moved to the DARK side!









You will get good








Soft coat








Good energy levels:








and you know what they are eating!









Doing RAW is so much easier than I ever thought and it is economical.

Do try the Orijen Large Breed if you are doing a grain-free with Large Breed Puppy. Or another good Large Breed Formula (but will most likely have grains - Angeles was on Iams Large Breed and did fine)

And I highly recommend this book:

http://astore.amazon.com/dogbyt03-20/detail/0646396242 (Raw Meaty Bones by Tom Lonsdale)
or
http://astore.amazon.com/dogbyt03-20/detail/0975717405 (Works Wonders: Feed Your Dog Raw Meaty Bones - same author but a cliff notes version of the one above).

Even a few days a week getting some Raw Meaty Bones will help a dogs teeth and gums which in turn helps their overall health.


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## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

Fudge on a stick! I swear I'm gonna go buy a bag of DADS or What's Walmart brand ?? oh yeah Ol' Roy LOL. 

I was also looking an Eukanuba Large breed Puppy. While it is not grain free, it looked like a pretty decent dog food w/o tons of crap in it.. well, less than most brands. 

I'm not going to do raw. If I did anything I'd cook it, but still... I got three kids and a hubs to cook for, not looking to cook for a dog when I can feed her a good balanced food that I don't need to worry about (once I decide on a brand lol)

I guess my question is.... how bad are grains, REALLY for a dog that doesn't have a grain allergy?


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I have never enjoyed Eukanuba... but, hey I am not a dog! I don't think it is as palatable as some foods either. It is not the worst, I suppose. My friend feeds it and my vet feeds it to their GSDs and the pups look good and grow appropriately. The food seems pricey for teh ingredients... but what a pickle, eh?!

I feel your pain!!


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## georgiapeach717 (Jan 28, 2010)

OK so I was going to put him on the Natural Balance Venison and Sweet Potato, but I just came upstairs to check my mail and he found the bag full of sample bags....and apparently if he had HIS way his choices would be:

Checking them all out...









First Bag torn into:
Eagle Pack Holistic Select









After wrestling that away from him..
His second choice (which is like a kid choosing chocolate cake for dinner)









The damage...









Silly Boy!
Back to the drawing board! LOL!!!


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: FuryanGoddess
> I was also looking an Eukanuba Large breed Puppy. While it is not grain free, it looked like a pretty decent dog food w/o tons of crap in it.. well, less than most brands.
> 
> I guess my question is.... how bad are grains, REALLY for a dog that doesn't have a grain allergy?


Seriously, Euaknuba is one of the most overpriced foods on the market. You can pick a plethora of foods for less that are better. 

I'd second the Wellness 5 vote. That's my top choice for fosters. It's a good company and good food. 

My general rule of thumb is trying to stick with Old Mother Hubbard brand (Wellness, etc), Natura (EVO---way too much for puppies though, Innova, Cal Natural, etc), Champion (Orijen/Acana), and Blue Buffalo. There are some other good ones out there, but these are the ones readily available in my area. 

I try to stay away from Diamond foods (ie TOTW and a ton others)...but it can't always be avoided. Elsa's tummy agrees best with Natural Balance, so that's what her main food is.

One thing to remember about grain allergies. Your dog likely is not going to develop an allergy if it isn't exposed to grains. So why mess with it? Or at least if you ARE going to feed grains, go with something high quality (ie oatmeal). And pllllllllllleeease stay away from corn!


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## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

Yeah, Lady had ear issues. GOD did they stink! OMG, ear infections and stuff... they said to put her on a high protein diet... I have to admit... I had NO idea that brands like Evo and Orijen existed. I feel so bad. Vet never recommend them and we didn't have a large pet store around. I'm sure she had issues and allergies... 

Wellness 5, is that the brand name? is it grain free? Do they have puppy? Blanhhh, more research! My head







Stupid dog has no idea how much time and energy is going into her!

Oh and I was looking at the Eukanuba and it was pretty much the same price as TOTW and that's grain free, [censored]?


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Yes, it's the same price as some really good foods...and the ingredients have by-products, corn meal, brewers yeast (HUGE culprit in ear infections), etc. 

A really good website to try is dogfoodanalysis.com. Anything 4 stars and up is going to be considered a premium food and would be good to try in my opinion. 

Wellness is the brand, and they have several "lines" of dog food. The Super 5 isn't grain free, it just has good grains like barley and oatmeal in it. Wellness does have grain-free food (it's their Core line) but I believe the phosphorus/calcium ratios are off for puppies. But it's a good animal food company and you can't go wrong with anything they have.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: GSDElsa
> 
> 
> FuryanGoddess said:
> ...


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## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

yeah, this is what confuses me. What is the protein % that a large breed should have? I don't want to over protein her.. and can't that cause Kidney failure w/ too much protein?


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

if he likes the eagle pack holistic select, that is a fine food (they make a large/giant breed puppy formula)..

i think most of us could agree this would be a much better choice than the Eukanuba.

for example, corn is the first real ingredient in the eukanuba (if first ingredient is not in meal form, it is highly likely the first ingredient is the next 1 or 2 ingredients, which are corn and ground whole grain sorghum). the grocery store brands often list a meat first because they are allowed to list ingredients by weight before the cooking is done. once it is dehydrated. it isnt really the first ingredient. named meat in meal form are already in a dehydrated state. if you see them listed first (ex: chicken meal) then meat is actually the first ingredient. look for any foods that have a named meat meall before any non meat ingredients.

the eagle pack holistic large breed puppy has chicken meal as the first ingredient. this is good.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Yes, meat proteins can be an allergen too. When everyone got high on switching to lamb foods years ago... quickly the allergy to lamb rose among dogs.
It takes exposure. If you don't eat though....


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Meat allergies more prevlant than corn or brewer's yeast? Hmm. Not sure I'm buying that, but if I can see a study on it I'll buy it. But overexposure to things is definitely one of the causes of allergies......also one of the theories as to why so many dogs are developing chicken allergies thanks to all the "chicken by-product" that has been going into dog food.

Obviously a dog can develop an allergy at any time. There just isn't a point in going to a food with ingredients with some of ingredients linked to the highest amount of food-based allergies and problems (ie corn and brewer's yeast).

And on top of allergies it's just a bunch of carp that has no nutrional value and is primarily used as a cost-saving filler.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Here is a great article on that:

http://doggybytes.ca/vet-protein-hard-dogs-kidneys/2244/

"The fact is that nobody knows what too much protein means with respect to dogs, but a dose of common sense tells us that if they evolved eating meat, and large quantities of it, that it’s probably pretty difficult for a dog to OD on protein. The myth of too much protein has been propagated by the pet food industry because corn and wheat are cheaper than meat. Plain and simple!"

....


"“In general, high-quality animal source proteins provide superior amino acid balances for companion animals, compared with the amino acid balances that are supplied by grain proteins.” (page 174)

Nature designed dogs to be meat eating machines. She, (Mother Nature) wrote the blueprint. Are we so arrogant as to assume that the plans she was working from were flawed and that dogs are better off eating processed kibble or tofu and beans?

“The grain-based diets for dogs did not even exist until seventy years ago when we humans demanded the convenience, simplicity and economy of dog food in a bag.” - The Pet Center"


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: FuryanGoddessyeah, this is what confuses me. What is the protein % that a large breed should have? I don't want to over protein her.. and can't that cause Kidney failure w/ too much protein?


no. lower protein is only indicated for a dog in some stage of renal disease. old research that suggested high protein was bad for large breed pups was done on rodents and used very low quality protein sources. higher protein from high quality sources is fine for a healthy pup. 

two of the most highly regarded things to feed a pup are RAW and Orijen large breed puppy. in both of these cases, the pups are eating a pretty high protein diet.

i also agree with Robert. some of the large players in the pet food industry have supported the myth of high protein. companies like Hills/Eukanuba make a killing charging high prices for foods made up of mostly cheap grains rather than actual meat.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

This is from:

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+1587&aid=143 

There are several studies cited, but I don't want to pay for them.

"Several studies have shown that some ingredients are more likely to cause food allergies than others. *In order of the most common offenders in dogs* are beef, dairy products, chicken, lamb, fish, chicken eggs, corn, wheat, and soy. As you may have noticed, the most common offenders are the most common ingredients in dog foods. This correlation is not a coincidence. While some proteins might be slightly more antigenic than others, many proteins are similar in form and the incidence of allergic reactions are probably associated with the amount of exposure."


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: FuryanGoddessyeah, this is what confuses me. What is the protein % that a large breed should have? I don't want to over protein her.. and can't that cause Kidney failure w/ too much protein?


No, you will not cause kidney failure. For puppies, my personal belief is to keep protein around 28-30%ish until around 6 months or so just because it can be too "rich" for them and a lot of the grain free foods aren't completely appropriate for pups (Orijen is the only exception I can think of off the top of myhead). Once they get older, the more protein, the better as long as it is a good quality. After 18-24mo or so you don't need to worry about the phosphorus/calcium ratio.

Just be aware of what is working and what isn't. The better quality the foods as a younger, the less likely you will be to have problems down the road. But you might find a super-high protein, chicken, fish--whatever might not work for your girl. Just keep the learnin' up and you'll be prepared to switch it up if you need to.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

And even in renal failure dogs, lower protein didn't seem to help according to a study linked on Champion Pet Foods website (the Orijen folks)...seemed inconclusive that high protein would cause any more harm.


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## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

has anyone ever heard of 4health? I saw it today at Tractor Supply and it claims no corn, soy or artificial stuff 

http://www.tractorsupply.com/pet-care/do...-18-lb--5138507


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: AngelesVonLobosAnd even in renal failure dogs, lower protein didn't seem to help according to a study linked on Champion Pet Foods website (the Orijen folks)...seemed inconclusive that high protein would cause any more harm.


yes, now i recall that as a conclusion of some studies. so it seems lower protein has questionable use even w/ renal failure.

ive seen some calculations that indicate dogs fed a RAW diet, when adjusted to a dry matter basis, are actually eating the equivalent of 45%-55% protein, so id see no worry with kibbles at 30-40% protein (with the caveat that it is imperative that dogs eating high protein, dry food drink plenty of water)


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: FuryanGoddesshas anyone ever heard of 4health? I saw it today at Tractor Supply and it claims no corn, soy or artificial stuff
> 
> http://www.tractorsupply.com/pet-care/do...-18-lb--5138507


never heard of it, but it looks better than some grocery store foods.

still id favor something like innova large breed puppy, eagle pack holistic large breed puppy, primarily because i know who makes those foods.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I think 4Health is Tractor Supply's own food. I do believe it is manufactured by Diamond. Which again, I try to avoid unless I have to.

But it does look like a decent food from the link you provided going off the ingredient list. 

If money is an object, it might be a good alternative. If not, I'd still stick with a company that manufacturs their own food.

ETA: That PARTICULAR food looks good. But be careful. I'm definitely not feeling the ingredients in some of the other forumulas (I'm currently looking at the Chicken & Rice).


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## georgiapeach717 (Jan 28, 2010)

ok i think i am going with Eagle Pack Holistic Select for kibble, Wellness Bites for snacks and training along with some things like chicken breasts, chicken livers, venison and marrow bones from the butcher shop.

Now I get to rest my brain! Thanks for all the help everyone!
Furyan, I am anxious to see what our final choice is!


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## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

I've been on the dog food review board and I don't really care for the reviews that the eagle pack is getting... ?? my head is swimming. I thought I had this all worked out.







, I should just stick w/ the Orijen


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## georgiapeach717 (Jan 28, 2010)

> Originally Posted By: FuryanGoddessI've been on the dog food review board and I don't really care for the reviews that the eagle pack is getting... ??


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

When I see Potato Protein it kind of makes me laugh.....if people don't want a gluten meal because of it being from grains, why would someone want a protein from a potato instead of meat? Glutens from grains are used to pump up the protein in some dog foods just like Alfalfa meal and potatos.

Lamb, Lamb Meal, Egg Product <--- meats plus meal plus diary


Cracked Pearled Barley, Millet, Ground Rice <--- grains


Chicken Fat (Preserved With Mixed Tocopherols) <--- name fat source

Potato Protein, Oatmeal, Potatoes <--- roots, grains

Tomato Pomace <--- does the same things a dried beet pulp in other foods

Flaxseed <--- would rather see fish oils come first over flax or not have flax and have more omegas from fish

Natural Flavor

Salmon Oil (Source of DHA), Ocean Fish Meal <--- good to see salmon oil and fish meal, which also provides EPA/DHA


Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride


Dried Chicory Root <---- good for stomach/digestion

......then the rest


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Best thing to do is find something your dog will eat and is nutritious! If your dog isn't dying then you did something right!









Too much change can cause upset...so be careful.


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## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: georgiapeachGSD
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: FuryanGoddessI've been on the dog food review board and I don't really care for the reviews that the eagle pack is getting... ??


sorry LOL I feel your pain!


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## georgiapeach717 (Jan 28, 2010)

OK...so ummmm....Innova??? 

What about my own blood? I am sure I can get an IV hook up straight to him...it would be less trouble!

Of course...I probably have the wrong blood type!


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## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

snorts.. or perhaps we could just feed them our sanity and cash money LMFAO Wrong blood type LOL. Too funny It shouldn't be this hard. Man, the crap I feed my kids, why and I so worried about grains in my dogs food? 

used to have to feed my oldest a gluten and dairy free diet... that was a PIA, this is just as bad


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

maybe you would feel better about the innova large breed puppy then. it is made by Natura in their own plant. lots of people here have been happy feeding it to their german shepherd pups.


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## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

I just don't know if I can FIND it.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Oh, you shoudl be able to find Innova! 

I'd def do either Wellness 5 or Innova.........and you've got to be able to find it! They are fairly common. What big pet food chains do you have?


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## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

There is a Petco and a Burton's Total pet around here. Also Tractor Supply and a few other feed stores


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Well, Petco definitely has Wellness...and that and Innova are pretty much on par. Out of everything that Petco carries, I think that would be my choice.

Are there any smaller specialty stores (where were you getting the Orijen from--you'd think they had other good foods)...

But, if you're around Pittsburg, I'm pretty sure there are a ton of places that carry Natura (Innova) foods.


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## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

yeah, I'm about 10 min from the burgh!


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Oh, you'll definitely not have a problem finding Wellness 5 or Innova then! It's a big city and those aren't nearly as obscure as Orijen (even though a lot of people on here feed it, your average dog feeder not so much). I'm in 'lil Syracuse, NY and I have a couple options for Wellness 5 and at least one for Innova, so there's got to be lots of places around you.


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## georgiapeach717 (Jan 28, 2010)

So are you going to be my Innova buddy?







I guess THAT is my final choice!!!

I do feel bad I fed my toddler scooby doo mac and cheese but spent 3 days now on food choices for the dog! LOL!


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Innova Large Breed puppy should be appropriate... hopefully it all goes well!

Just wait until you are cooking for the dog! My kids really enjoyed that!!


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## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

Well.... Zeva chose for me.. She prefers the TOTW over the Orijen. She runs over to her bowl and eats up w/ the TOTW. I put some of each in a pile on the floor.. she sniffed them both and then ate the TOTW and left the Orijen... so... guess we're going w/ that then.


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## georgiapeach717 (Jan 28, 2010)

Glad you finally got it figured out! Clover snubbed the TOTW completely even after opening the bag! Which flavor is she having first? Wetands, Prairie, other?


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## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

Prairie


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

FuryanGoddess said:


> Prairie


 
just food for thought (no pun intended). the Ca levels in all TOTW varieties are around 2+%, whereas the common reccomendation is to keep large breed pups around 1.5% or less. it is the exact same reason that wellness Core (and EVO ) specifically warns against feeding their food to large breed pups. Diamond just chooses not to warn anyone about this.

does she actually not like the orijen if that is all she is offered?


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## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

No, she eats the Orijen, but every day it seems like a struggle to get her to eat. She's not a huge food dog. When I called Evo, they said about not feeding LB pups their food, but if I did, keep a close eye on their weight. Weigh them ever week, which is what I'm doing w/ Zeva anyway. the place is right up the street anyway and it's fun to see how she grows week to week and gets her out and around ppl. 

Right now at 19 wks, she weighs 38lbs.


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## georgiapeach717 (Jan 28, 2010)

BIG GIRL!!! holy carp!


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## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

georgiapeach717 said:


> BIG GIRL!!! holy carp!


Really? She seems kinda thin to me.... We think she's gonna hit 80 or so lbs. She's still got huge paws and ears

Ok, so we had our morning poop and it was more than normal, not liquid or anything and she decided to try and eat it. that was the first time she's done that since we put her on Orijen. She mostly had the TOTW yesterday so looks like it's back to the Orijen. She don't need to be eating poop when I'm paying 2$ a lb for her food... WTF and ICK!


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## georgiapeach717 (Jan 28, 2010)

LMAO the poo eating is the grossest ever!!!! I hear for some reason (i think something to do with ancestors eating human poo, i dont know i have seen so much crap online) that it is very common in GSDs. 

and to me 19 weeks is a tiny baby! 38 pounds??? Thats a lot!


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

not to say this is what is happening, but a higher calcium food, in theory, is going to promote faster growth than one would want in a gsd pup, thus the reccomendation to stay away from TOTW, EVO, Core, Imtinct.....until one year of age.


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