# Amazon UK bans Prong sales, U.S. Next?



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Time to fight back against the "Karen's Cat" people.

Let Amazon know you don't support the AR crowd and their agenda nor propaganda. Naturally they use the ONE same picture over and over again to try a make a 'point'. Then they ask if you would use a prong on a child. Well no, I also don't feed kids raw meat and make them sleep in a crate either. :crazy:

Amazon UK Bans the Sale of Prong Collars | Life With Dogs

There is a petition now, with over 2,000 signers trying to put pressure and get Amazon to remove prongs from sale on their site here in the U.S.


----------



## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Jeepers creepers, next they'll be banning all types of collars entirely  I'd *love* to send the AR people pushing this the study showing the damage caused by all the different type of collars and harnesses and see them sputter out excuses

I'd almost be willing to shave Delgado's neck to show that there are absolutely NO marks left by his prong :crazy:

Medieval torture devices indeed, it's almost laughable


----------



## Guardyan (Aug 29, 2005)

This is so maddening . . And what about the dogs who cannot be walked safely without a prong? Is euthanasia preferable to the use of a prong collar?!

I teach obedience classes throughout the year. A few years ago, an elderly woman signed up for classes. Her son was serving in Iraq and she was caring for his large, exceptionally strong pit bull. The woman was very weak from ongoing chemo treatments. She wanted to be able to walk the dog safely. This was a case where power steering was necessary for her safety as well as the safety of people & dogs in her neighborhood.

I suppose the smiley, happy, utopian society people would recommend the ongoing, costly, and in our area nonexistent services of a behaviorist. But guess what? In the real world people have real issues with their dogs and they need various tools at their disposal. 

Sorry for the rant - I just feel like banning prongs will lead to higher euthanasia rates for strong, large breed dogs.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Here's a petition to push back and stop this from happening with Amazon the U.S.

Please share, comment and sign:

https://www.change.org/en-GB/petiti...-rights-propaganda-about-training-tools#share


----------



## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

I signed the petition. thanks for notifying us, I don't want to lose my freedoms.


----------



## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Here's a petition to push back and stop this from happening with Amazon the U.S.
> 
> Please share, comment and sign:
> 
> https://www.change.org/en-GB/petiti...-rights-propaganda-about-training-tools#share


Thanks for the link, I signed it


----------



## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

That is rediculous. 
Signed. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## gsdheeler (Apr 12, 2010)

I signed, if the AR people have their way there will be no dogs at all. Did anybody see a Youtube video about PETA a few years ago, about how they got into shelters, pick up pets and the percentage of animals put down by them was more than 95%. It was an eye opener. Bottom of the barrel if you ask me.
At a AKC show a few years back there were PETA people letting dogs out of crates, "To run free"


----------



## CleoPatrick (Feb 12, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Here's a petition to push back and stop this from happening with Amazon the U.S.
> 
> Please share, comment and sign:
> 
> https://www.change.org/en-GB/petiti...-rights-propaganda-about-training-tools#share



https://www.facebook.com/notes/dogs...ith-embedded-collars-and-harness/456924481085

I found this, The picture that was caused by a prong is really a case of an embedded dog harness.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Thanks for signing! Please share the link to the petition on facebook and other sites. Let's send a message to Amazon and by default the AR people we aren't going to let them steamroll over us like they did in the U.K. 

They do not speak for us nor do their views represent the majority of dog owners. 

Every chance I can I try to politely educate people about the falsehoods and propaganda.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

That's the point. The picture circulating of the dog with the embedded prong (see my first post link) is being used to try and get bans.

So if that picture can be used to ban prongs why not ban harnesses based on one picture showing how it too can cause harm when not properly used. 

The picture of the embedded harness is being used as an object lesson.

The petition I linked is using that pic as an example of how illogical banning prong collars is.




CleoPatrick said:


> https://www.facebook.com/notes/dogs...ith-embedded-collars-and-harness/456924481085
> 
> I found this, The picture that was caused by a prong is really a case of an embedded dog harness.


----------



## CleoPatrick (Feb 12, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> That's the point. The picture circulating of the dog with the embedded prong (see my first post link) is being used to try and get bans.
> 
> So if that picture can be used to ban prongs why not ban harnesses based on one picture showing how it too can cause harm when not properly used.
> 
> ...


I signed and had my friends sign, I use a prong with my GSD, I have a trainer who works with me and I am slowly using a flat collar, since the prong is no longer needed. I think of it as a tool no a lifetime dog collar.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

:thumbup:




CleoPatrick said:


> I signed and had my friends sign, I use a prong with my GSD, I have a trainer who works with me and I am slowly using a flat collar, since the prong is no longer needed. I think of it as a tool no a lifetime dog collar.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The dog's neck looked like the prong had been embedded in it, kind of like embedding a regular collar looks terrible, is terrible. If you put a collar on a puppy and you don't check it, and wait for six or eight months, it will embed -- whatever collar, even my favorite, the martingale.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ok, I now saw the change.org and signed that. I should have wrote, "becuase I am for anything the AR people are against", but I was good.


----------



## dano1427 (Mar 19, 2013)

Amazon doesn't care about Change.org petitions (many of those petitions are paid for by the host petitioner, and Change.org will sell your personal info.) 

Contacting Amazon, directly, would be more efficient.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Folks can sign it anyways, it doesn't cost anything to sign it.

Further, if anything, it alerts people of what is going on. It's as much educational as it is proactive.

Also, I'm not sure how the petitions were done in the U.K. but change.org is one of the vehicles being used to stir up similar action in the U.S. 

...and contacting Amazon directly is good too! 




dano1427 said:


> Amazon doesn't care about Change.org petitions (many of those petitions are paid for by the host petitioner, and Change.org will sell your personal info.)
> 
> Contacting Amazon, directly, would be more efficient.


----------



## kiya (May 3, 2010)

Caring for your Dog's Neck and Spine: Dog Collar Issues - DogBreedz.com

I've used prong collars for over 20 years and never hurt my dogs,
That picture has been floating around FB for a long time.


----------



## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Here's a petition to push back and stop this from happening with Amazon the U.S.
> 
> Please share, comment and sign:
> 
> https://www.change.org/en-GB/petiti...-rights-propaganda-about-training-tools#share


I signed the petition. Whenever someone says to me that a prong collar is inhumane or gives me a look. Or even throws out the "You wouldn't put a prong collar on yourself or a kid would you?" I say no of course not, i wouldnt put a leash and collar on a kid either or make a kid go in a crate or eat from a bowl on the ground.  Harness, leash, flat collar, prong, martingale, choke can all be misused. I will say that some of those tools are harder to misuse than others, choke and prong _probably are _for more advanced dog owners. But proper fitting and being shown how to use it would be all it takes for someone to start using the tool.


----------



## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I have seen many embedded flat collars removed from dogs in shelter, I have yet to see an embedded prong.


----------



## nktigger99 (Aug 22, 2006)

That is crazy. I haven't ever used a prong but may in the future who knows. 

And if I could I swear there are days I would use an e collar on my kids....just kidding kind of.....

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

:wild: ah-ha someone with a cheeky sense of humor signed as "Victoria Stilwell".


----------



## Juliem24 (Jan 4, 2014)

When deciding about a prong, I first put a choke chain on my thigh and had my husband give it a strong yank, then the same with the prong on the other thigh. Omg the choke hurt like the dickens and left a significant bruise, the prong didn't actually hurt, just "pressed". Guess which I use?


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Julie, I think that was excellent what you did. Plus having someone else apply the pressure removes any potential bias....


BTW- Interestingly a LOT of comments from the U.K. Granted this is not scientific in any way but .... it shows that the anti-prong/P.O. people have been allowed to 'own' the dialog on this issue for far too long.

Also some really heartfelt stories about people who were at a loss with their dogs and the prong collar helped them make the break through they needed to get to a place where they could be positive with their dogs.

So we've gotta push back before it takes too much hold in the U.S. We can't allow these people to get the upper hand. No more silence, no more being brow beaten as though we are horrible abusers for using tools like prongs and e collars too.

BTW- on a couple of local facebook pet pages I'm monitoring - EVERY SINGLE DAY someone is 'dumping' a dog, which they refer to as their 'baby' because it's knocking the toddler over, or scratching the door, or running away. 

They'll dump the dog they call their 'baby' but will rail against anyone who dares to use a prong collar to try to fix a problem and KEEP the dog in the family.

Another item to put on my 'stupid human tricks' list. *sigh* /vent off


----------



## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

How does that petition work? When I signed, it said it needed 100. Just now when I checked to see the results, it now says it needs 500. What's the story there?


----------



## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

Blanketback said:


> How does that petition work? When I signed, it said it needed 100. Just now when I checked to see the results, it now says it needs 500. What's the story there?


It looks like the need/want a total of 500 signatures. When I look at it it says it still needs 272.


----------



## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Back when I signed, it was 29 signatures with 71 needed. So now I'm wondering what the increments mean.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

At first the goal was 100 then it goes up incrementally each time the next goal hits.

Probably helps incentivize people to sign to help meet the next goal post and then the goal reset to encourage the next batch of signers.

I don't think there's actually a certain goal amount, just to get as many to agree and sign as possible.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

I was banned from the UK gsd forum for calling bs on the nonsense they spread on there about prongs and e collars. Not surprisingly no one there had video of their dog doing any kind of decent training.

They also deleted the whole thread were I provided numerous actual examples of how a prong and e collar are applied successfuly in training. Video evidence a study etc, but in the end I was one of those abusive people that feels more masculine when I zap dogs with shock collars and torture them with spike collars! They also believed the e collars regularly burn dogs necks even though thats impossible with the way they are made now, then posted pics of embedded e collars to prove their point...
Nothing worse then when the truth gets in the way of your perceptions! Lol. Its always interesting to me that the most vehement anti prong/e collar folks tend to have no experience with the tools or much actual experience period.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

hehehe you are a trouble maker you know. You want the link to Victoria Stilwell's forum?  hehehe (don't worry mods I won't post it on the open forum....J/K)

I suspect you'll last, oh maybe 24 hours there. 

eta: I don't know if you saw it up earlier in the thread but I noticed a lot of people from the U.K. are commenting on the petition how they are very disappointed at what happened with Amazon U.K. but they have GOTTA speak up and fight back......



Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I was banned from the UK gsd forum for calling bs on the nonsense they spread on there about prongs and e collars. Not surprisingly no one there had video of their dog doing any kind of decent training.
> 
> They also deleted the whole thread were I provided numerous actual examples of how a prong and e collar are applied successfuly in training. Video evidence a study etc, but in the end I was one of those abusive people that feels more masculine when I zap dogs with shock collars and torture them with spike collars! They also believed the e collars regularly burn dogs necks even though thats impossible with the way they are made now, then posted pics of embedded e collars to prove their point...
> Nothing worse then when the truth gets in the way of your perceptions! Lol. Its always interesting to me that the most vehement anti prong/e collar folks tend to have no experience with the tools or much actual experience period.


----------



## belladonnalily (May 24, 2013)

Question about that picture of the supposed prong collar injury:

If it was indeed due to misuse, would the "holes" in the dogs neck be so "neat"? It seems like to yank the dog with enough force to break the skin, it would tear the skin. Unless of course the prongs were sharpened. I just cant imagine the level of force it would require to do this with a normal prong collar.

I also agree that its imbedded due to being left on a growing pup, but I was just curious about what it would look like if someone DID yank hard enough to break the skin. 

I use one on my dog, now mainly when out in public where we might run across obnoxious people and dogs, just as a precaution. I weigh 10 lbs more than my dog and he is still a pup at just under a year. When hiking he's on a harness but I keep a tab on the prong just in case. Without it, I'd probably be nervous about taking him out at this stage. I don't expect to need it forever...I imagine the people that think its so awful wouldn't appreciate me "skiing" behind my pup as it bounds up to greet their 10lb Pomeranian (he loves little dogs). Or when they let little Precious run between his legs on its retractable leash (it has happened) and their little darling winds up tied to my beast (which would happen if I lost control of him).

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Blitzkrieg, that's so disappointing that the forum deleted the thread. I really appreciate it when other people take the time to link material on whatever subject's being discussed, so that I can delve into it further. How can people form opinions without facts or experience? This I'll _never_ understand.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Some people are Vulcans some are not. 

Most people, once their mind is made up, refuse to change it. Then it becomes a belief and it must be enforced on others to validate it. 


I used to be an anti prong person myself. When presented with evidence to the contrary I did change my mind.


Blanketback said:


> Blitzkrieg, that's so disappointing that the forum deleted the thread. I really appreciate it when other people take the time to link material on whatever subject's being discussed, so that I can delve into it further. How can people form opinions without facts or experience? *This I'll never understand*.


----------



## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

But that's the ludicrous part: how do you make up your mind in the first place? Would more people like prongs if they made them in fancy colors, lol?


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

It depends.

For me it seemed intuitively correct that using a prong was abusive because of A) the propaganda I had heard about them previously B) it does look like a harsh tool, especially when we empathize imagining that tool being used on our thin skinned necks.

The problem is truth and reality are often counter intuitive.

Think Plato's Cave. 



Blanketback said:


> But that's the ludicrous part: how do you make up your mind in the first place? Would more people like prongs if they made them in fancy colors, lol?


----------



## Guardyan (Aug 29, 2005)

At this point, when prongs are being banned in different countries, the decision isn't whether you use a prong or whether you agree with their use. The decision becomes do I personally agree with this tool being taken away from every dog handler in the country?


----------



## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

That's what I mean Gwen - you must have known that although you had formed an opinion about them, your ideas were based on what others told you and how it looks. But since we're talking about a training tool, then your opinion _should_ be based on seeing that tool being used and seeing the results - nothing else is indicative of the actual tool. My favorite hammer is a masonry hammer, and I bought it because of how it looks, lol! But you should hear the comments I get from people who actually know about hammers, and see me pull mine out to gently tap in a small nail. Too funny! Obviously I didn't put much thought into my purchase.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Learning is a process though, right? I had had great success training with NO prong collars with my previous dogs. It wasn't until Smitty came into my life that I had to re-think my position. 

I don't fault anyone for ignorance, the problem is when it becomes willful ignorance.

I think you and I have chatted enough that we know both we are critical thinkers, it's just that I don't apply critical thinking to every single decision I make. It's too time consuming, so I go with what sounds right/feels right at the moment for decisions that at the time don't seem super critical. 

When I was looking to get a new dog then I went into full research, learn and question everything mode because I knew enough to know how important being critical was in selecting a new dog.

The key becomes a willingness to change one's mind you know?

It's when people don't want to change their minds when confronted with new information that things like this become a problem.



Blanketback said:


> That's what I mean Gwen - you must have known that although you had formed an opinion about them, your ideas were based on what others told you and how it looks. But since we're talking about a training tool, then your opinion _should_ be based on seeing that tool being used and seeing the results - nothing else is indicative of the actual tool. My favorite hammer is a masonry hammer, and I bought it because of how it looks, lol! But you should hear the comments I get from people who actually know about hammers, and see me pull mine out to gently tap in a small nail. Too funny! Obviously I didn't put much thought into my purchase.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

That's it -IMO- as well.

If someone can train without a prong and get the results *they* want more power to them.

No one is trying to force people to use prongs. 



Guardyan said:


> At this point, when prongs are being banned in different countries, the decision isn't whether you use a prong or whether you agree with their use. The decision becomes do I personally agree with this tool being taken away from every dog handler in the country?


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Also, one more though Blanket Back, above, that's my experience and how I got to where I am on this issue.

I personally know of a person who was abused as a child. Now this person is hyper sensitive to anything she thinks may be abusive to her dogs. So that's the driver of why she is against prongs. It may not be rational but I share that to illustrate there's many reasons why people become so stubborn on the idea of using prongs to train.


----------



## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I know what you're saying. But IRL I'll tell people point blank to come back when they're more educated on the subject, if they persist with the "because I think so" line of reasoning. It's too frustrating to try to attempt a logical conversation when logic isn't being considered, lol. 

I do have sympathy for people who are equating this tool with abuse, because I do have compassion for others' sensitivities. But what bother me is that I'm expecting the same consideration in return, and I'm not always receiving it. I believe that it's far more damaging to a dog to be under the constant stress of failure, and that a well-timed correction will eradicate this problem, and I think this is better for the dog. For someone else to tell me that I'm being abusive is so insulting! This is said without even _seeing_ what I'm doing: just my admission alone is enough to get them going off on me. So the combination of not understanding the tool and not understanding the training is annoying to say the least


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Yup, I'm on the same page with you there. I'm willing to share knowledge but I won't argue with someone who chooses just to be stubborn and not willing to learn.

....and I've tried over the years. I used to debate on political forums and if I had a good solid argument backed up by data/empirical evidence the other person *usually* would resort to ad homs. In the case of prongs it's what you mention below, the accusation of being abusive. If anything the better the job I did of proving my point the more upset and shrill those who disagreed became.


So the question that I ponder is why become SO entrenched in what amounts to a belief? 



Blanketback said:


> I know what you're saying. But IRL I'll tell people point blank to come back when they're more educated on the subject, if they persist with the "because I think so" line of reasoning. It's too frustrating to try to attempt a logical conversation when logic isn't being considered, lol.
> 
> I do have sympathy for people who are equating this tool with abuse, because I do have compassion for others' sensitivities. But what bother me is that I'm expecting the same consideration in return, and I'm not always receiving it. I believe that it's far more damaging to a dog to be under the constant stress of failure, and that a well-timed correction will eradicate this problem, and I think this is better for the dog. For someone else to tell me that I'm being abusive is so insulting! This is said without even _seeing_ what I'm doing: just my admission alone is enough to get them going off on me. So the combination of not understanding the tool and not understanding the training is annoying to say the least


----------



## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> So the question that I ponder is why become SO entrenched in what amounts to a belief?


Good question. The simple answer, to me, is that these people are lacking in a basic curiosity - otherwise they'd want to investigate more thoroughly. But then, why not just say "I don't know" instead of insisting on a baseless viewpoint? That's so common these days - or maybe this was always a typical attitude, and we're just noticing now, as we become older and wiser, lol? Or maybe "I don't know" is just as hard to spit out as "I was wrong" or "I'm sorry."


----------



## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

I just found that the whole thread was deleted to be telling. NO names were called (except at me..) nor was there any libel. Nothing worse then trying to hide the truth because you dont agree.

When you are open minded training becomes a lot easier. Was having issue with a force fetch and have recently gone to freeshaping. Training for me is about results not the process. 
Anyways unfortunately the UK is a lost cause. This is a place that now confiscates any dog that remotely looks like a pitbull. If the owner isnt interested in going through a lengthy legal process the dog is put down. I saw a London K9 officer actually sieze a little 40lb mutt (owner was just going through the train station) that looked like there might be 1/8 pitt in there. Then go on to tell the TV cameras about how vicious and dangerous these dogs could be. The dog was very social, and was put down.
Talk about hypocrasy, how can you deal with people that have such a mindset?

Luckily I dont think the USA is in danger of that type of issue, Canada...maybe. Good thing y'all are just a few hours away... 

Victoria's forum sounds like a great way to jack up the blood pressure...lol. Still cant get over that episode were she actually papered the windows of a client's car so the dogs couldnt see out to make them stop barking!


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Yup!! That's what it's about. I'm of the same mind. It was when I wasn't getting results with Smitty that I had to re-evaluate. Having been involved with horses for many years there are just some problems they present that you just can't live with due to their size and strength. 

I had one horse that wouldn't load on the trailer. He was an inherently lazy horse so lunging him for a bit and then asking him to load was the key. He'd rather load then work. Lol! The other horse was an energizer bunny ex race horse with him it was insisting that the only direction he could move was forward onto the trailer. Two totally different approaches based on the animals unique personalities.

So...the mission is....should you choose to accept it, raise some blood pressures.   




Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I just found that the whole thread was deleted to be telling. NO names were called (except at me..) nor was there any libel. Nothing worse then trying to hide the truth because you dont agree.
> 
> When you are open minded training becomes a lot easier. Was having issue with a force fetch and have recently gone to freeshaping. Training for me is about results not the process.
> Anyways unfortunately the UK is a lost cause. This is a place that now confiscates any dog that remotely looks like a pitbull. If the owner isnt interested in going through a lengthy legal process the dog is put down. I saw a London K9 officer actually sieze a little 40lb mutt (owner was just going through the train station) that looked like there might be 1/8 pitt in there. Then go on to tell the TV cameras about how vicious and dangerous these dogs could be. The dog was very social, and was put down.
> ...


----------



## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

It would be the dogs who would benefit from prohibiting the use of the prong, not humans.+R training was developed first with dolphins in 1965, then discovered that a clicker training is applicable to any animal including humans. Many though it was the end of the "prong era" for dogs. But, +R training, though simple, takes time, considerable experience in dog training, patience and perseverance. If you cannot train your dog - you shouldn't have it, people in UK are refused to buy puppies of certain breeds if they failed to pass the test. Why should people have what they like if they cannot handle it? Prong in UK is not only considered to be a tool of torture, it also is considered to help unexperienced owners who want to handle more than they can. Better to cut down the number of potentially dangerous owners, and depriving people from the tool, discouraging them to use it is better for non-agressive society, because prong collar is absolutely unnecessary tool in dog training.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

David Taggart said:


> It would be the dogs who would benefit from prohibiting the use of the prong, not humans.+R training was developed first with dolphins in 1965, then discovered that a clicker training is applicable to any animal including humans. Many though it was the end of the "prong era" for dogs. But, +R training, though simple, takes time, considerable experience in dog training, patience and perseverance. If you cannot train your dog - you shouldn't have it, people in UK are refused to buy puppies of certain breeds if they failed to pass the test. Why should people have what they like if they cannot handle it? Prong in UK is not only considered to be a tool of torture, it also is considered to help unexperienced owners who want to handle more than they can. Better to cut down the number of potentially dangerous owners, and depriving people from the tool, discouraging them to use it is better for non-agressive society, because prong collar is absolutely unnecessary tool in dog training.


 
Show us your training.


----------



## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

> Training for me is about results not the process.


Process always was more important for me than the results. Process is about me, my knowledge and capabilities. Results totally depend on a dog and his genetics with any training, if you are capable of modifying the process according to the dog's character - you can get the best of him in something you wouldn't guess before you started training. Many dogs may fail at something you hoped them to become, but revealed some talents which amazed you. Dog is not a blank piece of paper you can start writing, complete the text and say "Here we are".


----------



## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

So thats a no...


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I think - MHO of course - That *some* people prioritize *being* right over every thing else including actual results. Another word is denial. We human beans are pretty good at that.





Blanketback said:


> Good question. The simple answer, to me, is that these people are lacking in a basic curiosity - otherwise they'd want to investigate more thoroughly. But then, why not just say "I don't know" instead of insisting on a baseless viewpoint? That's so common these days - or maybe this was always a typical attitude, and we're just noticing now, as we become older and wiser, lol? Or maybe "I don't know" is just as hard to spit out as "I was wrong" or "I'm sorry."


----------



## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

> Show us your training.


Not necessary. There are plenty enough of videos on YouTube.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Ah-ha so I think we know where our mysterious Mr. Taggert hails from.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Yes there are plenty but most of those people arent on here talking about something like they have a clue.. I was just curious about what you were basing your commentary on. Experience, learned or observed or internet hearsay..? 
I find myself confused by the majority of your commentary..so I was looking for some reality to ground me.


----------



## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

Good. Just - I never hail. Dogs hate high pitched tunes. People don't appreciate them either.


----------



## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

> confused by the majority of your commentary


Sheer words... What exactly did I say you didn't like? Try to post your comment in time next time. Please.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Just about 99% of your posts would be about right. Thats why I wanted to see you training so I could correct a perception that I have developed..


----------



## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

> perception that I have developed


It is an open Forum... We have a good saying: "Hear everyone, but don't listen to anyone". Because your dog is unique, an individual, demands individual approach as any other dog. You are welcome.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

### PERSONAL COMMENT REMOVED BY MOD###

Speaking of 'torture' on more then one occasion you've put forth some very dangerous advice that others have had to quickly correct for those new to the GSD world. 

Further you've not put forth any bonafides to support some of your outlandish statements. 

So while you may not 'hail' you certainly mislead and misinform.




David Taggart said:


> Good. Just - I never hail. Dogs hate high pitched tunes. People don't appreciate them either.


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

### FEEL FREE TO EXPRESS YOUR OPINION. NO PERSONAL BASHING ALLOWED###

Having some type of verifiable experience helps others to believe your opinion is valid.

David Winners


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

No worries David Winners!


What David Taggert inadvertently illustrates, (back on topic) is how painting with a broad brush and using emotionally charged rhetoric over actual experience and evidence works....well sometimes it works.


----------



## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Blitzkrieg, I found something for you:

"...do you not feel as Admin that you could perhaps apply a rule to the forum that* bans/discourages the discussion of negative training methods? Another dog forum I am on does this* and to be honest I like the fact that I can go on there and won't be frustrated by thread..."

In any doubt e-collars are mental (and physical) abuse?

LOL! That on the 1st page - out of 206 pages long! I obviously didn't read the whole thread, but there's some good posts. LuvMyDogs talks about prongs in the 160's and it's informative - but go figure that most in the 'pro' camp are now banned members. This is a UK site, and if they can argue for 206 pages (with the thread being closed) then I'm guessing that there's more to the ecollar ban than just 'only bad trainers use them.'

"Charles Wall, founder specialist dog training company A1K9, told the BBC: 'In the right hands they have probably been responsible for saving lots of dogs' lives - dogs that would otherwise have been shot, dogs that would have been run over from running out onto the main roads, dogs that are persistent fighters.
'There are many, many things that you can use this apparatus for.'"
Electric collars that shock pets into obedience are banned in Wales | Mail Online
banned-Wales.html

"Yet, still I and hundreds of others, are successfully working alongside these people and when we need to use equipment that abruptly stops or reduces the aberrant dog behaviour, that’s a fact of life. Moreover, because we help and get results, not just fancifully wishing, we can more often than not teach the now listening owner into the general dog training scheme using as much reward and intelligent dog training as is possible, alongside use of appropriate equipment."
The Guild of Dog Trainers - Dog Training, Dog Training and Behaviour, Dog Training Courses, Dog Behaviour Courses

Those links are my reply to David Taggart. Obviously, there are trainers in the UK who understand the tools we're speaking about. Are they cruel or incompetent trainers?


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

OH wow, that first link, from comparisons to humans and electro shock therapy (a friend of a friend knows someone's daughter who got fried by an electro shock therapy treatment and she can't remember what she forgot now LOL!) then there's that evil Russian Doctor...(aka Pavlov) and that's just the first page. 

That's exactly how it works. Incite anecdotal and embellished stories or blame Pavlov. 

:crazy:


----------



## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I know someone who's had electroshock therapy too. I'm keeping that tab open, and I'm slowly going to plow through all those pages. There's an awful lot of weeding to get to the posts worth reading, lol! I noticed Adam P mentioned in one post that he was originally an anti, and that's why he started reading about ecollars in the first place.

What I find really disturbing is the amount of censorship involved. It seems that you're either not allowed the freedom to exchange information, or when you are, then the actual information available is limited through forced absenteeism. Yuck, that's not very intellectually stimulating.


----------



## LuvMyDog_Worldwide (Jul 23, 2011)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> :wild: ah-ha someone with a cheeky sense of humor signed as "Victoria Stilwell".


That'd be me


----------



## Juliem24 (Jan 4, 2014)

Signed.
Thank you.


----------



## Deno (Apr 3, 2013)

We seem to be living in the twilight zone, up is down, down is up, wrong is right and so on.

You have people who don't have a clue forcing their dumb ideas on the rest of us.


----------



## Keeno Beano (Jul 19, 2014)

I am new on this site and hope to learn from responsible german shepherd folks.


----------



## crazy_chicken (Jun 18, 2014)

Look at how many dogs are ran over each year...perhaps all those crazy extremist animal rights people should protest the use of vehicles and walk to all of their rallies and peaceful demonstrations...


----------



## Deno (Apr 3, 2013)

David Taggart said:


> Process always was more important for me than the results. Process is about me, my knowledge and capabilities. Results totally depend on a dog and his genetics with any training, if you are capable of modifying the process according to the dog's character - you can get the best of him in something you wouldn't guess before you started training. Many dogs may fail at something you hoped them to become, but revealed some talents which amazed you. Dog is not a blank piece of paper you can start writing, complete the text and say "Here we are".


 
I glossed over this at first, and made my initial post.

I have been trying to maximize my time. 

But after reading this again, I just can't help myself. 

Anyone who puts process over results is one confused puppy.


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Can someone explain the Karen's cat part?


----------



## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

I play alot of poker, and results are not meaningful- but its always nice to win. The goal is to play right, you wont always get the desired results. Results are very short term, and you can get idiots who hang their dog by the neck to get it to sit. Thats how result oriented thinking can go downhill. The people making the rules are stupid so they cant wrap their head around how non stupid people think- so they make more rules.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

lalachka said:


> Can someone explain the Karen's cat part?


Not 100% sure if this is what you mean, but I believe it is Karen Pryor who wrote some book about positive training and doesn't believe in anything but. Well, I guess in her book she tell about a cat she had that kept peeing on the stove (I think) and she ended up euthanizing it. So rather than using some aversion training, she would rather kill a critter.

If I am totally in left field on that, someone can please correct me.


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Lol my cat has been peeing on the stove for years. It's amazing to smell boiled cat piss once we start to cook thankfully we don't do it often lol

I see. I was talking about this in another thread. I met this really good positive trainer. She dubbed anyone who used force as lazy and said there's no excuse for it. She was very knowledgeable, very passionate. I had a friend with a problem dog so I figured she can help him. 
I was stunned when she said not only she couldn't take him on and he should be euthanized but she recommended euthanasia more than she cares to think about. 

If your methods don't work on all dogs then you have no right to knock those that do. 
My not so humble opinion lol


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I have to say though, when the Boston-looking mix showed up to class wearing a tiny prong collar, I guess I can see their point. The pup is 11 weeks old, and weighs about 3 pounds. The collar is too big for it, and draped all around its neck. The guy with the dog is over six feet tall, big guy. Why he needs a prong collar on a baby puppy is beyond me, and he isn't doing any prong collar people any favors.


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I don't know about that story and there are idiots everywhere. And they def help the ar agenda


----------



## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Has anyone read the comments? alot of them are they are pure nut!


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

On the anti prong petition, yes they are nuts. My favorite nuttery is the comparison of putting prong collars on human children. We also don't crate kids or feed them kibble in bowl on the floor. 



misslesleedavis1 said:


> Has anyone read the comments? alot of them are they are pure nut!


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Nope, not out in left field. You are correct.



selzer said:


> Not 100% sure if this is what you mean, but I believe it is Karen Pryor who wrote some book about positive training and doesn't believe in anything but. Well, I guess in her book she tell about a cat she had that kept peeing on the stove (I think) and she ended up euthanizing it. So rather than using some aversion training, she would rather kill a critter.
> 
> If I am totally in left field on that, someone can please correct me.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> On the anti prong petition, yes they are nuts. My favorite nuttery *is the comparison of putting prong collars on human children. We also don't crate kids or feed them kibble in bowl on the floor*.


Maybe that's why kids these days are such whiney, spoiled, snots. Maybe we should just go straight to the e-collar for them. Instead of no-bark collars, no whine collars. I like it. Back talk -- crank that collar up. 

It probably is a good thing I don't have any kids.


----------



## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

dano1427 said:


> Amazon doesn't care about Change.org petitions (many of those petitions are paid for by the host petitioner, and Change.org will sell your personal info.)
> 
> Contacting Amazon, directly, would be more efficient.


I contacted Amazon directly and received a very nice email back saying that the my message was sent to the proper department and that Amazon values customer feedback. 

I was satisfied with the response from Amazon. I am a regular customer and felt that contacting directly was the best method for me.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

:spittingcoffee:

:thumbup:




selzer said:


> Maybe that's why kids these days are such whiney, spoiled, snots. Maybe we should just go straight to the e-collar for them. Instead of no-bark collars, no whine collars. I like it. Back talk -- crank that collar up.
> 
> It probably is a good thing I don't have any kids.


----------

