# Biting and brattiness in 16w old female



## Breana' (Nov 9, 2017)

Guys, I’m going crazy with Nyx. I know we see these posts all the time, but her biting and nipping is getting worse toward me. I try to discipline her and she gets fired up and comes back harder. She doesn’t do this to my fiancé (who is male!)

1) I’ve contemplated getting stitches a few times from puppy teeth slices

2) I’ve been crating her more and more during out of control bouts of biting. This was not my intended purpose for the kennel!

3) Puppy classes start on Tuesday. She’s young, it’s more shaping than training, I already know. This is more for ME learning how to deal a growing biting machine with an attitude.

Talk me off a ledge, guys. I’m frustrated, annoyed, and it’s been one heck of a tough week. How did you enforce discipline on your pup without beating them senseless? Ignoring doesn’t work anymore, swatting doesn’t work anymore. Food rewards aren’t doing a thing. I think it’s so bothersome because I feel like I don’t understand what she’s trying to communicate and it leads to a confused puppy and a bit-up grouchy dog mom. 

Advice and critiques welcome and appreciated! Thanks for letting me vent here.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

don't let your pup get over tired and wound up. Human toddlers get cranky and whiny when they miss their naps. Dog toddlers get nippy and unreasonable. A structured routine will be your friend. Come out and play for a bit, and then go down for a nap, either on a doggy bed / pillow or the crate. Come out and eat and take pee break, go take a nap. Come out and play a few brain games, go take a nap. 

We also found what our pup liked to get mouthy on. For our big-boy it was leather work gloves. For my gal-dog it was cloth toys. We didn't let them just chew on them freely but we did use those to play with, simple tug and wrestling games. That helped them focus on something other than our naked hands and our feet, but it did not over night. It took some learning that toys meant more playing, nipping skin meant game over.

It does slow down once they get done teething.


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## JBjunior (Feb 8, 2018)

My puppy is 13.5 weeks. We had a few intense moments regarding biting and me making sure to not overcorrect. It worked for me. My wife on the other hand continues to struggle with her throughout the day. We have set-up training sessions with rewards for quiet/positive behavior when my wife is walking around and small corrections to let her know the appropriate way to interact. We have spent more money on toys/chews then I thought was possible and we also have spent more time watching the puppy than both of my children combined. We have puppy proofed our homes, at least the bedroom, living room, and hall where she is allowed to roam and do home obedience, tug/bite work, and socialize her constantly. No matter what, she will continue to explore with her mouth, setting those boundaries is critical, but also just be patient. We continue to do training sessions with rewards for the ideal behavior.

We have the puppy on a very dedicated schedule, though I try to avoid her in the crate as much as possible. We let her take naps in her Expen, or other designated areas, though I like the advice above about work/train/play, nap, potty, etc. We like naps for her, I think I am going to be a little more dedicated to them.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

It’s not brattiness, it’s normal puppy behavior. I agree, she needs quiet time in her crate. She also needs enough off leash exercise to wear her out. Not too much at her age and not forced, just enough. She is probably bored as well. By 16 weeks mine had a reliable off leash Sit and Down. I did a little each day, never for very long. But when he acted up, which he did, I could get him into a quiet sit or down and he could not bite. I also never let him bite me. Instead, I taught him to lick treats from a closed fist. He learned that putting teeth on me had negative consequences, usually isolation and licking or being quiet and calm had better consequences.

For play, try a flirt pole. That should wear her out.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Try getting something big and soft, a stuffed toy or large piece of fleece. Something she can bite and hold. Put a short line on it. 2, maybe 3' long so there's some separation from your hands. Tease her with the toy, let her chase it a little and catch it, then tug a little with it. You want to focus all that desire to bite on the object, not you. Make that object valuable to her, so that ending the play or giving her time in the crate for touching you with her teeth when playing is a clear consequence. 

Correcting her for biting is fine, but what you're running into is you aren't harsh enough to make her stop. You may not ever be able to without having the balance of something she'll find rewarding enough to do instead of biting you. Concentrate on what you want her to do, so you don't have to spend your time fighting to stop what you don't want. And for right now, don't look for much affection with her. Save that for later.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Before I got Eska, her breeder started working her on a flirt pole, with a rag. I NEVER had a problem with her biting me, or being mouthy. Of course, I continued the flirt pole work to tire her out, and she also had two adult dogs to use as teething toys. They'd put her in her place if she got too nippy, but I don't recall seeing that happen very often.

As a result of the flirt pole work, she was very fixated on towels and washcloths and would frequently steal them, or grab any dangly items of clothing, or go after the tea towel as you were drying dishes, but hey, at least she wasn't going after skin!


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

If she comes back at you and not your fiance, that means YOU are not correcting her hard enough. It has nothing to do with you being female and him male. Except, you know, us ladies are taught to be gentler... :rolleyes2:


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## girardid (Aug 13, 2015)

dont correct a puppy for nipping. the dog is playing. Her coming back is just her getting more amped up. If you are correcting a puppy hard enough that are stopping nipping you are just tearing down their confidence as well as hurting your relationship. Instead redirect her to a toy. If she is coming after your hands than think about why your hands are more fun for her to bite and chase than a toy. then make sure hands are boring and toys are fun.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Teeth on skin gets a correction, unless it's very gentle (mouthing rather than nipping). Puppies get corrected by adults for biting too hard. I would give a verbal correction 'no bite!', then take the pup by the scruff, and hold it so it wasn't able to come back at me, until I could find an appropriate toy to put in its mouth.

Should have said 'your corrections are not effective' rather than 'you are not correcting her hard enough.' My bad!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Sunsilver said:


> Teeth on skin gets a correction, unless it's very gentle (mouthing rather than nipping). Puppies get corrected by adults for biting too hard. I would give a verbal correction 'no bite!', then take the pup by the scruff, and hold it so it wasn't able to come back at me, until I could find an appropriate toy to put in its mouth.
> 
> Should have said 'your corrections are not effective' rather than 'you are not correcting her hard enough.' My bad!


I think you should either correct for teeth everytime, or never. No grey area like that. For every dog that wouldn't create confusion in, there's another one that is going to look at that as unfair and an invitation to fight. You aren't ever going to convince me they confuse us with other dogs either. You'd be better off planning ahead with the toy, being prepared, rather then building the frustration level while you search for one. Nothing personal Sunsilver, but those are things that I would worry about making things worse for the op.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Steve, we had a cat at one time that was very, very hyperactive when it was young. He was able to learn the difference between being gentle with his teeth and claws, and biting/clawing too hard. We'd tell him 'gently!' and he'd pull his claws in, and sometimes start licking us instead. My way of looking at it is this is something they have to learn when playing with other dogs, so it shouldn't be that hard to teach them to do it with humans, too. And if the puppy has already bitten you, holding it by the scruff prevents a second bite until you can get a toy into its mouth.

Putting an overtired pup in its crate is fine, but a pup that just wants to play really isn't going to understand a time-out. With no outlet for its energy, it's just going to be MORE playful when you let it out again.

Found this video of my pup at 9 weeks, playing with the flirt pole:


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I agree with Steve. Mine was a landshark and I had to set a no teeth policy right away because if I gave in on anything, he pushed for everything. Once he outgrew the mouthy stage and stopped biting, he occasionally nibbles on my sleeve, which for him is a way of communicating. My early no teeth rule didn’t affect that at all even though no teeth at the time also meant no nibbling. I’ve seen other family members get into messes with my dog by being inconsistent. They let him mouth gently and he kept biting them long after he had stopped nipping at my hands. Each dog is different. Mine is so drivey that giving in at all was permission.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

If you're training cats, I give you full credit there. That's out of my league.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Steve Strom said:


> If you're training cats, I give you full credit there. That's out of my league.


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

That is SO cool!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Wow. Thats pretty cool.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Steve Strom said:


> Wow. Thats pretty cool.


All positive. :x


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> All positive. :x


Ah, thats why she slows down coming out of the tube. How do cats do with E ?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Steve Strom said:


> Ah, thats why she slows down coming out of the tube. How do cats do with E ?


I am not aware of anybody using e to train cats but I do know of people who use e with underground containment systems.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Until 3:46 today, I wasn't aware of anyone training a cat to do anything beyond use a litter box. This is why it can be a good thing to let threads run a little.


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## wolfebergk9 (Oct 11, 2014)

Yep. Cats can be very trainable. It's interesting the kind of things you can train a cat to do.


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## wolfebergk9 (Oct 11, 2014)

Breana' said:


> Guys, I’m going crazy with Nyx. I know we see these posts all the time, but her biting and nipping is getting worse toward me. I try to discipline her and she gets fired up and comes back harder. She doesn’t do this to my fiancé (who is male!)
> 
> 1) I’ve contemplated getting stitches a few times from puppy teeth slices
> 
> ...


I'm sorry you're having trouble with the pup. The persistent biting can be annoying! Have you tried redirecting her with a toy when she starts up?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Steve Strom said:


> Until 3:46 today, I wasn't aware of anyone training a cat to do anything beyond use a litter box. This is why it can be a good thing to let threads run a little.


Most cats naturally use litter boxes, no training needed.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Fake cat.....


SuperG


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## Armistice (Oct 12, 2017)

I know I was able to tell when my pup was getting wound up and would be soon time for some exercise. Remember, a tired puppy is a good puppy. If they're too tired to bite or do Puppy Races, you'll be good

Could also be boredom. I feel I got pretty lucky as my pup wasn't a landshark. Her biting was more in regards to playing and just having an open mouth that would catch you rather than actually trying to bite you

I'd say redirect with toys. Remember, you can't just push a toy in their mouth and walk away expecting pup to play with the toy. YOU need to make the toy fun. Play with the toy. Do some fetching. Give the toy a name and do some name recognition

Puppy may need some positive timeouts. Nap times. That's what I did. Crate for an hr. Then out to potty. Play/ explore time for about 30mins (potty breaks in between), then back to crate for an hr

As puppy gets older, their stamina will increase and need more to tire

Also, if you do training, you'll only get a few commands in before they're bored. End training before they're bored and ignore you. My pup would get about 3-4 commands before I had to stop and do something else. Even at 16wks, I couldn't get too many commands


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

But have you seen the agility chicken?


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## Breana' (Nov 9, 2017)

See, these are all really good pointers and that’s why I love this forum. My main issue with the entire situation is that I’m ineffective with correcting her as previously stated. It feels like a huge miscommunication between us or something. We have a make shift flirt pole, I’ve stuffed toys in her mouth, I’ve scruffed her, held her down, made loud noises to get her attention off of biting me, take her for walks, run in the yard, have little training sessions, completely ignore her, and crate her as a last resort when whatever method I’m using is exhausted. I stay as consistent as possible with corrections but I still can’t figure out what I’m doing wrong. I know she’s a normal puppy but it’s evident she doesn’t go after my fiancé as much as she does me. I’m just trying to figure out what we do differently.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Your pup might be enjoying the challenge you present. You will get through it. I would also be good to have a trainer see you in action. Another set of eyes can be very valuable. Just make sure they are familiar with GSD>


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## wolfebergk9 (Oct 11, 2014)

Breana' said:


> Guys, I’m going crazy with Nyx. I know we see these posts all the time, but her biting and nipping is getting worse toward me. I try to discipline her and she gets fired up and comes back harder.





Breana' said:


> It feels like a huge miscommunication between us or something. We have a make shift flirt pole, I’ve stuffed toys in her mouth, I’ve scruffed her, held her down, made loud noises to get her attention off of biting me, take her for walks, run in the yard, have little training sessions, completely ignore her, and crate her as a last resort when whatever method I’m using is exhausted. I stay as consistent as possible with corrections but I still can’t figure out what I’m doing wrong. I know she’s a normal puppy but it’s evident she doesn’t go after my fiancé as much as she does me. I’m just trying to figure out what we do differently.





car2ner said:


> Your pup might be enjoying the challenge you present. You will get through it. I would also be good to have a trainer see you in action. Another set of eyes can be very valuable. Just make sure they are familiar with GSD>


Like car2ner said, she might be enjoying the challenge you present. Perhaps you could try to stop the scruffing and holding her down as this may be making things escalate, and instead just try redirecting her with a toy every time she starts this. Make the toy fun, make her chase it, drag and throw it around, etc. But if she is persistent on ignoring the toy and biting you, put her up for a time out; not frustratedly, but in a neutral style. Consistency, patience, and eventually she will probably grow out of it. Let us know how things go. Those pups can be awfully nippy when they're young!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Here, you have not tried all of the options on this list. 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/8333337-post1.html


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Steve Strom said:


> If you're training cats, I give you full credit there. That's out of my league.


Steve, this cat was just totally crazy as a kitten/young cat. He was literally bouncing off the walls, and everyone in the house had at least a couple of bad scratches or bites on their hands, arms or legs from him. He wasn't mean or vicious, just INCREDIBLY high energy!

Believe me, the training was a matter of self-preservation!! :help:

And believe me, when a cat grabs your hand/arm with all 4 sets of claws, and starts to bite as well, you do two things: keep your arm as still as possible to avoid triggering their prey drive, and scruff the cat's neck to (hopefully!) remove the threat of the teeth! Most cats will freeze when you do this, as it's what the mom does when moving the kittens around.

I have never, ever had one quarter of the problems with the pups I've raised as we did with this cat!!

Oh, and cats don't need to be taught to use the litterbox. I saw this for myself when I bottle raised a litter of kittens from a feral mom!


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

BTW, when I talk about scruffing, I mean grabbing the skin on the scruff of the neck, and holding it, without shaking or excessive force.


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## CaesarJoy (Jan 30, 2018)

I feel your pain! I had a rough week with my guy biting.....he’s 13 weeks. I recd so many helpful hints from my post earlier in the week. I increased his exercise, playing tons of fetch, using more of the kong type toys for mental stimulation and I have also learned to STOP and BREATHE when he gets nuts because when I am calmer he is calmer.....what has been working also is saying the word GENTLE as soon as he starts biting.....he pulls away and starts to lick 90% of the time. Good luck and I hope things settle down!!!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Breana' said:


> See, these are all really good pointers and that’s why I love this forum. My main issue with the entire situation is that I’m ineffective with correcting her as previously stated. It feels like a huge miscommunication between us or something. We have a make shift flirt pole, I’ve stuffed toys in her mouth, I’ve scruffed her, held her down, made loud noises to get her attention off of biting me, take her for walks, run in the yard, have little training sessions, completely ignore her, and crate her as a last resort when whatever method I’m using is exhausted. I stay as consistent as possible with corrections but I still can’t figure out what I’m doing wrong. I know she’s a normal puppy but it’s evident she doesn’t go after my fiancé as much as she does me. I’m just trying to figure out what we do differently.


A 16 week old puppy and look at all the things you've tried.

Look, I am not being mean and I'm sorry if I come across as rude but she's a puppy. They bite. This to shall pass. 
You can't punish misbehavior without teaching a behavior. And as I tell everyone puppies, like children, learn what they live. You getting rough with her will only teach her that this is how problems are solved. Respect what drives her to challenge you right back. One of the hellions I had shortly before Shadow had me wearing work gloves around her. She loved to bite! But she grew out of it, it just took some patience. Every time she started I would shove a toy in her mouth, if she kept it up I would crate her for a few minutes and then start over. I like the big, floppy, under-stuffed teddy bears. They flop around nicely, aren't heavy enough to break anything if they get flung and provide enough of a shield for your hands to save your sanity. 
One thing I can tell you is that every puppy I have ever tried the "OUCH" thing with has gone into prey frenzy over it. I never do that anymore.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

If my 16w old puppy DIDN'T bite, I'd be worried. It will pass... Put puppy in crate or xpen... Take a break yourself. Regroup... Try again.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

> what has been working also is saying the word GENTLE as soon as he starts biting.....he pulls away and starts to lick 90% of the time. Good luck and I hope things settle down!!!


Ha! Glad to know someone else had this work for them, but with a puppy rather than a cat! And I don't know what gods I've sacrificed to that I've never had a puppy (yet!) that was a landshark. Maybe it's because I had other dogs for the puppies to play with, or maybe I've just been lucky.

I think the reason a loud 'OUCH'! escalates things is because that's what happens when a carnivore attacks prey - they squeak in pain. And that's the reason dog toys are DESIGNED to squeak - it fuels the prey drive, and encourages the dog to continue its attack on the toy!


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

LuvShepherds said:


> It’s not brattiness, it’s normal puppy behavior. I agree, she needs quiet time in her crate. She also needs enough off leash exercise to wear her out. Not too much at her age and not forced, just enough. She is probably bored as well. By 16 weeks mine had a reliable off leash Sit and Down. I did a little each day, never for very long. But when he acted up, which he did, I could get him into a quiet sit or down and he could not bite. I also never let him bite me. Instead, I taught him to lick treats from a closed fist. He learned that putting teeth on me had negative consequences, usually isolation and licking or being quiet and calm had better consequences.
> 
> For play, try a flirt pole. That should wear her out.


I like your advice, but isn't 4 months a little young for a flirt pole? I would be concerned with their growing joints.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Nurse Bishop said:


> I like your advice, but isn't 4 months a little young for a flirt pole? I would be concerned with their growing joints.


Yes, I didn’t think about that because I never used one. What about a tug rag?


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Nurse Bishop said:


> I like your advice, but isn't 4 months a little young for a flirt pole? I would be concerned with their growing joints.


Nurse Bishop, watch my video, and see how Melissa does it. She starts all her pups with the flirt pole from a very young age. You avoid making them jump, though. Pretty much all of her dogs have sound hips and elbows. Certainly everyone who's been x-rayed so far in Eska's litter has good hips and elbows, so the flirt pole certainly didn't hurt them!


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## Breana' (Nov 9, 2017)

Sabis mom said:


> A 16 week old puppy and look at all the things you've tried.
> 
> Look, I am not being mean and I'm sorry if I come across as rude but she's a puppy. They bite. This to shall pass.
> You can't punish misbehavior without teaching a behavior. And as I tell everyone puppies, like children, learn what they live. You getting rough with her will only teach her that this is how problems are solved. Respect what drives her to challenge you right back. One of the hellions I had shortly before Shadow had me wearing work gloves around her. She loved to bite! But she grew out of it, it just took some patience. Every time she started I would shove a toy in her mouth, if she kept it up I would crate her for a few minutes and then start over. I like the big, floppy, under-stuffed teddy bears. They flop around nicely, aren't heavy enough to break anything if they get flung and provide enough of a shield for your hands to save your sanity.
> One thing I can tell you is that every puppy I have ever tried the "OUCH" thing with has gone into prey frenzy over it. I never do that anymore.


Not rude at all, I appreciate the encouragement! I really just wanted some back up in knowing things would be fine with continued patience and shaping. I know that it really isn't her doing anything wrong, but I want to make sure that I'm not the one misleading her. The knowledge and experience on this forum is incredible. I just want to be on the right track with her, and if you guys see some errors in my ways, I want to know so I can fix it!:wink2:

Today was better. I was able to easily redirect, crate for naps, and play without becoming one of her chew toys. Training starts tomorrow! Looking forward to a new pair of experienced eyes to watch us interact. Thanks, all! Will probably post some updates as everything plays out!


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## [email protected] (Dec 13, 2017)

Breana' said:


> Guys, I’m going crazy with Nyx. I know we see these posts all the time, but her biting and nipping is getting worse toward me. I try to discipline her and she gets fired up and comes back harder. She doesn’t do this to my fiancé (who is male!)
> 
> 1) I’ve contemplated getting stitches a few times from puppy teeth slices
> 
> ...


OMG you have just described my experiences with my 12 week old. I have tried everything. He is good, smart pup, but my hands are hamburger. He does nip at my wife, but not nearly the way he does me. Please help!


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## [email protected] (Dec 13, 2017)

*Update*

I started reading this thread yesterday. I made myself a flirt pole. I used an old fishing rod, monofilament line, and tied on an old tee shirt. It is sooo fun! I love to fish, so when the pup latches on I’m pulling on a 32#r! You guys are right. Exercise is key! I also took him for a leash walk. His second one. Not only did it work him a bit, but he got to socialize with strangers. I have to say, I’m a little surprised by his response to strangers. He suddenly became very shy and even whittled a bit when being petted. We also worked on drop it and leave it. I try this when he is latched on to me and it is starting to work a little. He is also learning “gentle” which is also working. I’m starting to see light at the end of the tunnel. I have every confidence he will be a good dog. 

Thanks for the advice. 

J


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

your job is to protect your pup from strangers now. Not everyone has to pet him so judge wisely. Most people will understand if you tell them that "my pup is a bit tired from training, so no petting today". That way your guy doesn't have to worry about that big stranger trying to touch them when you are around...or wondering if he should nip or bark, etc. 

Glad you are seeing light at the end of the tunnel. Many of us have been in your shoes, stocking up on bandages and neosporen.


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## wolfebergk9 (Oct 11, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> But have you seen the agility chicken?


I would love to see a chicken doing agility. :grin2:


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## wolfebergk9 (Oct 11, 2014)

Breana' said:


> Guys, I’m going crazy with Nyx. I know we see these posts all the time, but her biting and nipping is getting worse toward me. I try to discipline her and she gets fired up and comes back harder. She doesn’t do this to my fiancé (who is male!)
> 
> 1) I’ve contemplated getting stitches a few times from puppy teeth slices
> 
> ...


How is she getting along now? Any improvement?


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