# In denial



## angryrainbow (Jul 1, 2012)

Not sure if this is the right place, but I'm feeling a bit in denial. 
I've always been positive, positive, positive, didn't think corrections did anything except create a short cut for those who didnt want to put the effort into doing things the right way.
I was the one with a pocket full of treats, ready to redirect my dog, do spurts of obedience or capture a promising behavior.

Over the past year I began being more understanding of corrections. I learned of the right way and the wrong way, read up a lot on timing, precision, the mechanics behind it all. Though I still hadn't attempted issuing them, it was mostly out of curiosity.

And then, this past month, I learned what corrections could really do. And I'm in denial of it all.

After a quick obedience session with a prong, my dog listens to me 100%, he looks at me with his bright eyes and is awaiting my next orders, I am completely in the drivers seat. I had imagined that he would be sulking, avoiding me, slow to respond.. 3 years of treats and positive training couldn't get me what I got in one session of using a prong. but I can't get over it. It is almost like my dog LIKES being corrected. Like that was all he needed, to be corrected. 

I understand it is probably the black and white-ness of it all, the additional structure it provides. But Its not something I'm able to justify to myself (if that makes sense).

Now, my dog is not, or was not, out of control or anything. He has mild dog reactivity, bad recall, and is slow to respond.. I only have to ask once but you can see him sigh and roll his eyes as he complies, even though he is getting a treat. Good dog though. 

After using the prong, though.. He recalled so fast, I thought he was going to knock me over. His down is faster than I can say the command and even when we are not training, he is glued to me, but he is also very visibly comfortable and happy.

I guess I need help processing it all. Trying to incorporate this training and such.. I don't know if I'd feel good about myself, issuing a correction in public. 

Can someone break this down for me, or help me come to terms with this new world of corrections ?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I found when I asked for more from my dog, I got more from my dog...and the respect came along with it. 
Structure is necessary and usually structured environments contain some rules. 

I was told this past weekend that when we give corrections, we should also give praise in the same measurement or more. Praise is so important, and if we are just correcting, but not praising, thats when conflict comes into the picture. Black and white is what dogs want, not grey!


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

First, I have to say, I applaud your ability to self-reflect and be so incredibly honest with yourself. Not many people can do that, including myself at times...so bravo.

Secondly, I think you already said it....it's the black and white of it all....the clarity....the dog is thinking, "OH!!! I completely understand what you are asking of me...this is awesome, and we can move forward faster!!!" Haha, I am completely humanizing the dog....but I am just trying to tell you, you already know why it is so much easier. 

Dogs aren't humans, they don't understand a human conversation, or reasoning...they only know what they understand...if that makes sense....a correction for doing something you don't want is how you *communicate* that you don't want that behavior....a dog, I think....wants and thrives on that communication...if they are only being treated for what's good, they have no idea what you don't want, yes you can "block" the bad behavior...but you just aren't letting it happen....you aren't *showing* the dog that it isn't allowed. How can the dog learn something isn't allowed if he/she is never *shown* that.

I honestly don't think I would have the reliable "down" that I have with my dog if I hadn't used compulsion/corrections to let him know that when he was supposed to be in a down, he HAD to stay down....and honestly, it *literally* saved his life today (I posted about it earlier)....now your dog completely understands what you want from him *and* what you don't want from him....that's super exciting, for both of you!!

Edit: Oh, and of course it's all about balance. My TD always says, "think of training like a bank account....every time you make a correction you make a withdrawal....you have to re-stock that bank account with praise/reward/play etc...if you don't re-stock, pretty soon you're in over-draft." lol I know it's silly, but it's so true....praise immediately releases the dog from the pressure of the correction...and it's equally important....*balance*!!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

If the dog enjoys work and has a good relationship with you, often he wants to be told/shown/corrected what to do. They want to please us and be right. With some dogs it's easy enough to capture or shape this with all "positive" methods but with most dogs they need some, uh, guidance and boundaries along the way


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

I think each dog needs a program geared towards their individual needs. We either short change the dog or ourselves if we refuse to change and adapt

I agree that a good balance between positive and negative is extremely important.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> I found when I asked for more from my dog, I got more from my dog...and the respect came along with it.
> Structure is necessary and usually structured environments contain some rules.
> 
> I was told this past weekend that when we give corrections, we should also give praise in the same measurement or more. Praise is so important, and if we are just correcting, but not praising, thats when conflict comes into the picture. Black and white is what dogs want, not grey!


I work under the premise of any pressure I put on the dog with a correction, I take all back off with praise/reward when the desired behavior is gotten.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

This was my exact experience with my Smitty dog. The only 'correction' I would use was a firm 'No'.

He totally gave me the talk to the paw attitude. When he'd finally slowly comply I'd do the 'yeah great dog' happy party and he'd just look away.

I felt very frustrated with myself and disappointed in him that he didn't seem to care whether he was pleasing me or not. I stopped even trying with him, stopped taking him places and our world shut down. Not much of a bond either. 

With Ilda and Autumn they are far more into pleasing me. I'm happy, they are happy, virtuous cycle. Autumn is so soft that just a firm 'no' is a serious correction for her.

I'm not sure what it is that makes some dogs like yours and Smitty act that way. Maybe it's low pack drive?

All I know is like you I had to go through an adjustment about using corrections with a prong. However (and it does seem counter-intuitive) using corrections *fairly* with Smitty has opened up the world for Smitty and our bond has never been better. We really are buddies now.

(btw on the use of corrections my trainer said for every correction you need to come up with ten positives, so I look at it as one correction then positive X 10)



angryrainbow said:


> <snipped>
> Now, my dog is not, or was not, out of control or anything. He has mild dog reactivity, bad recall, and is slow to respond.. I only have to ask once but you can see him sigh and roll his eyes as he complies, even though he is getting a treat. Good dog though.
> 
> After using the prong, though.. He recalled so fast, I thought he was going to knock me over. His down is faster than I can say the command and even when we are not training, he is glued to me, but he is also very visibly comfortable and happy.
> <snipped>?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

hunterisgreat said:


> I work under the premise of any pressure I put on the dog with a correction, I take all back off with praise/reward when the desired behavior is gotten.


Definitely. I also think that corrections can help set a dog up for success. I've never bought into the idea that if you simply don't reward what you don't want, a dog will figure out what you DO want. For example if a dog is slow to sit in motion 2 of 3 times, reward the 1 good time...um, no. To me if a dog is "wrong" 2/3 of the time he doesn't KNOW what you are asking, so he's not just going to figure it out. Get the result you want and by "get" that can be any combination of free shaping, luring, using whatever prop or gimmick you like, AND +P and -R.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Our entire society is going downhill because of lack of corrections.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

While I don't have a problem with PP traing, whatever floats your boat and works for that particular dog, I am also a person who trains with corrections. I am fair, always praise/reward for good behavior and believe that corrections at some point IS necessary.

When I enrolled Masi in a PP class, the TRAINER, brought her PP dog out, it was an absolute idiot. The class was unstructured, alot of aggressive dogs, (mine wasn't), and even the trainer admitted, there were to many pushy dogs/puppies in this class. 

I yanked Masi out of it, after 2 classes because of non productive, negative experiences, took my aussie, who is a marshmellow and thrived on PP training..

I put Masi into a koehler based class, Praise only, and she LOVED it, she "wanted" to go in the building, she 'wanted' to work, and it made a big difference in her attitude, much more enthusiasm..

So whatever works is the way I train..


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Actually it could be said the lack of balance.

We don't praise people 10 X for every correction we make either.




Sunflowers said:


> Our entire society is going downhill because of lack of corrections.


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## Harbud (Aug 27, 2013)

angryrainbow said:


> Not sure if this is the right place, but I'm feeling a bit in denial.
> I've always been positive, positive, positive, didn't think corrections did anything except create a short cut for those who didnt want to put the effort into doing things the right way.
> I was the one with a pocket full of treats, ready to redirect my dog, do spurts of obedience or capture a promising behavior.
> 
> ...


I personally avoid most of the commonly identified PPs (i.e. prong, choke chain & shock). I still do believe in primarily capturing and rewarding the correct behaviours I want. That said there are situations that call for positive punishers (prongs) and I would not judge someone on the street for administering a correction as long as it was fair. 
Remember +P/corrections are NOT the same as abuse and you are not necessarily failing your dog when you use it. By definition +P is anything you add to your training to reduce a behaviour. If you want to stop someone who questions your choice use the following example; my use of a Halti is +P because my dog doesn't like it. But he walks better, he understands it, and he know what he has done to warrant its use.  Try not to be hard on yourself. Sometimes the dog definitely appreciates the black and white in a situation. It sounds like you are the type of person to think things through and assess just what and how much is fair.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think good discipline does make for happier children and better dogs. 

Children and dogs are in a state of confusion or constant testing when the boundaries and limits are not clear. You do not need to pound on a kid to have good discipline and disciplining a child will be different from a dog, but I have never ascribed to the ideology that we should not say "NO!" or "Eh!" or physically remove a dog from doing something he shouldn't or prevent a dog from continuing, etc. 

Treat training is very effective with some dogs, and not nearly with others. One can find other things that are more effective with those dogs, praise, or playing with tug or toy, or even allowing the dog to jump up as a form of "good girl!" 

I think partying with a dog for a mediocre response is praising mediocrity, and giving the dog a clear signal that ignoring and doing what he wants when he wants to, is what you want. I can see that not working at all.

The big thing about treats in training, is that most people rely too heavily on them, and do not get to the next step at the right time. Timing is important, yes, but there is also a time when you should go from treating every single time, to treating some times, treating for the best response. Witholding a treat for a shoddy performance seems common sense, but it is more than that. They find with humans and dogs, the response is best when the reward is intermittent. 

It does seem that this stage of training with treats is totally ignored by some, and not done well by others. 

I ascribe to what I think is a balanced approach to training. Of course people on both sides of the fence probably feel the same way. The right way is balanced, and that is what they do. I guess, I have no problem with letting a dog know he did the wrong thing. I want to teach a dog something before correcting in most instances. But if a puppy does something the very first time, that is totally unacceptable, I am going to correct it. I will feel no guilt about it. 

I am not against prong collars, or other training devices. But using voice corrections from early on, I usually have good response without them, and have no need of them. I could always use them as a shortcut for a puller, but for me to do that, I feel, personally, that I am giving in. I am definitely the stubborn one when it comes to me and any dog. So even if it is easier to train, I am not necessarily going to go that route.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Sunflowers said:


> Our entire society is going downhill because of lack of corrections.


And yet the USMC, the most dependable, feared, and effective fighting force in the world is still taught *exclusively* through "corrections" lol.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I train with positive methods. During training, I don't correct. I'm not clear the dog understands what behavior I'm asking for, therefore I can't fairly correct it for the wrong behavior. 

If my dog is handler sensitive, I'll refrain from any corrections which I know will cause a great deal more work on my part, but worth it to build my dog's confidence. 

However, I am aware that even my body posture can and will be read as a correction to a sensitive dog.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

hunterisgreat said:


> And yet the USMC, the most dependable, feared, and effective fighting force in the world is still taught *exclusively* through "corrections" lol.


LOL like doing gymnastics. Hey who doesn't want to get called slow, fat, and clumsy for several hours a day? It's even called the same thing, a "correction" when you're getting shouted at.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

I do wonder to what extent people's training preferences are shaped by their own personal experiences. All my best teachers took the support-and-inspire approach and emphasized creative/critical thinking over rote memorization, and (if I do say so myself) I think it worked pretty well. I doubt I'd have accomplished what I have without that background.

And now I find myself training my dogs the same way, because that's what worked for me, and therefore that is what I expect will bring them to the greatest heights of success.

While the specifics of what I actually _do_ with each dog vary according to the individual dog's preferences and abilities, the underlying philosophy is always based on what _I_ liked and what worked for _me_ in the past.


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## Harbud (Aug 27, 2013)

Merciel said:


> I do wonder to what extent people's training preferences are shaped by their own personal experiences. All my best teachers took the support-and-inspire approach and emphasized creative/critical thinking over rote memorization, and (if I do say so myself) I think it worked pretty well. I doubt I'd have accomplished what I have without that background.
> 
> And now I find myself training my dogs the same way, because that's what worked for me, and therefore that is what I expect will bring them to the greatest heights of success.
> 
> While the specifics of what I actually _do_ with each dog vary according to the individual dog's preferences and abilities, the underlying philosophy is always based on what _I_ liked and what worked for _me_ in the past.


I LOVE this insight, I think you are right and on to something! My first go to with my dogs is to reward the stuff I like. When teaching I like to explain, and explain again, then practice, then let them fiddle to figure it out themselves if needed... if they show an understanding of the command and don't do as they have been taught then a warning is provided followed by a fair correction if necessary. I work this way with my dogs (and sometimes even people) and it is much like I was raised. My parents/teachers explained, then showed, provided themselves as role models and if we still got into trouble they cautioned us not to proceed. If necessary one swift smack on the bum (I'm not saying to hit your dog!) got us straight. They didn't beat us but they did have a habit of saying "OK, that enough now because you know better". When we were doing well and behaving they never failed to notice and reward us in some way. I also feel it produced great results IMO


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Merciel said:


> I do wonder to what extent people's training preferences are shaped by their own personal experiences. All my best teachers took the support-and-inspire approach and emphasized creative/critical thinking over rote memorization, and (if I do say so myself) I think it worked pretty well. I doubt I'd have accomplished what I have without that background.
> 
> And now I find myself training my dogs the same way, because that's what worked for me, and therefore that is what I expect will bring them to the greatest heights of success.
> 
> While the specifics of what I actually _do_ with each dog vary according to the individual dog's preferences and abilities, the underlying philosophy is always based on what _I_ liked and what worked for _me_ in the past.


To Merceil: I guess my response to this is, I don't agree with taking a method used by humans to learn, and expecting a dog to be *just as successful on those methods because it worked on another species....I am not saying it cannot work, just that I don't agree with the thinking that it should work as well on one species because it worked so well on another species....if that makes sense...I am a huge proponent of "if it works for you and your dog, great." I just am always curious if an owner, like OP, is refusing to even try a method because they don't *want* to believe it will work. 

Just thoughts in general: I think it's sad because then dog and owner could be missing out on what OP, Gwen, and others have said VASTLY improved not only their relationship with their dog, but also their dog's downright excitement to train....I just think it's awesome that those relationships took such a 180 degree turn for the better...and ~gasp~ it was done through evil corrections....[sarcasm]....


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

DaniFani said:


> To Merceil: I guess my response to this is, I don't agree with taking a method used by humans to learn, and expecting a dog to be *just as successful on those methods because it worked on another species


I'm not talking about the same _methods_. I'm not running speed SAT drills with my dogs and I don't expect them to go Ivy or bust (and not just _any_ Ivy, it has to be one of the good ones  ).

It's more about the underlying philosophical approach: _why_ you do what you do. What's your first instinct when tackling a novel problem? Why? What are your priorities? Why? That sort of question.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Merciel said:


> I'm not talking about the same _methods_. I'm not running speed SAT drills with my dogs and I don't expect them to go Ivy or bust (and not just _any_ Ivy, it has to be one of the good ones  ).
> 
> It's more about the underlying philosophical approach: _why_ you do what you do. What's your first instinct when tackling a novel problem? Why? What are your priorities? Why? That sort of question.


I get what you're saying, I just am of a different movement when it comes to training my dogs. I can see in my dogs eyes the absolute boredom and frustration when I am taking several sessions to get him to do something...to figure out his priorities, instinct, etc....I want training to always be a super enjoyable, fluid, experience. I don't want to take years months or even weeks to get what I may be able to get in a few short sessions with corrections/reward/balance.

I am currently training a year old rottie right now for her BH until we get our next shepherd. She is SO fun to work with, loves her tug, great grips, amazing attention, but after one session of focus I can see that she is like, "okay, I got it...let's do something else!" It's so much more fun than capturing, luring, etc....I use those in the very very beginning seconds, usually only one session, until the dog understands that "foos" means "look at me." Then there is a slight pop on the fursaver if she breaks the focus, then huge reward/praise for returning focus. Two sessions, "foos" is down(including distractions/proofing)....now we start healing/stepping while maintaining focus...etc...but it's always very fluid, very fast passed...not so fast that the dog is lost, but fast enough that we never hit boredom or frustration.

I have the same experience as OP when it comes to corrections being involved with my training, it's like an "aha!" moment for my dog....okay...not that...this? Yes!! And lets proof it, and move on. 

I could honestly believe that I could not have gotten the unbelievable, spin on a dime, mid-sprint, "down" that I got the other day when my dog was two seconds away from being splattered by an SUV. That reliable "down" took two sessions, using compulsion and rewards, to be proofed and reliable on not only a "down" but a down during mid-sprint or mid-jump...and my dog isn't a soft cookie, he's very hard...it took a pinch collar on him (he's 35 lbs) and people couldn't believe that this little dog was blowing off the pinch like a 100 pound rottie...but he is seriously the happiest dog you will meet, and now he flies into the down/sits/recall, whatever, as if it's the most fun thing he could possibly be doing......I know I am always harping on that reliable down, but I really think it's the best safety net to have for a dog.

It just struck a cord with my when OP said she thought that people who used corrections just didn't want to take the "time" to do it the "right" way, and somehow implying that anything else is the "wrong" way....That is a common thought amongst those against prongs/ecollars/corrections (harder than a pop on a flat collar)....and I always think that is so strange, because I feel just the opposite...frustrating, confusing, and boring the dog to death, is just as "wrong" to me as corrections are "wrong" to those against them....oh well. I am just happy for OP and that her relationship with her dog and her thoughts towards training are so much more pleasant now....dog is "excited" to work. I think that is just awesome!!! ;-)


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Merciel said:


> I do wonder to what extent people's training preferences are shaped by their own personal experiences. All my best teachers took the support-and-inspire approach and emphasized creative/critical thinking over rote memorization, and (if I do say so myself) I think it worked pretty well. I doubt I'd have accomplished what I have without that background.
> 
> And now I find myself training my dogs the same way, because that's what worked for me, and therefore that is what I expect will bring them to the greatest heights of success.
> 
> While the specifics of what I actually _do_ with each dog vary according to the individual dog's preferences and abilities, the underlying philosophy is always based on what _I_ liked and what worked for _me_ in the past.


Oh, and I had an AMAZING psychology prof my first year of undergrad that emphasized the human mind and how it took in information and retained it...very much against rote memorization, notecards, etc...he changed how I looked at learning....and I swear I Aced my years of Ochem, Gen Chem, Physics, and biochem, because of the way that man taught me to learn....rote memorization as a learning method should be kicked out of school systems everywhere...but, I digress... ;-)


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Dogs have FEELINGS too! Neuroscientist reveals research that our canine friends have emotions just like us | Mail Online


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I'm sure everyone's experiences shape how they train. I also think that people who train a lot and who have trained many dogs tend to over the years obtain dogs that they know are more and more likely to "fit" their mold. I have not been training dogs long and already am this way. I look for specific traits that seem to mesh well with the methods and tools that I am most comfortable with. I do lots of freeshaping in obedience (retrieves are shaped, no forced retrieves or play-based retrieves), I prefer using toy rewards and engaging with the dog over using treat rewards, I use a prong collar but don't use e-collars, etc. The actual balance of operant conditioning entirely depends on the dog and the behavior, though.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Liesje said:


> I also think that people who train a lot and who have trained many dogs tend to over the years obtain dogs that they know are more and more likely to "fit" their mold. I have not been training dogs long and already am this way. I look for specific traits that seem to mesh well with the methods and tools that I am most comfortable with.


That's true, I can see myself moving in that direction over time as well. Not yet, since I still have the current two mutt monsters and no other pup on my horizon (as a keeper, anyway), but... eventually.

It'd probably help if I had some actual idea what my methods ought to look like "on the ground," though. It's all been in flux again lately. Seems like every time I'm about to imagine I don't completely suck at this, I get reminded that nope, actually, still bad.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

And don't forget, dogs are NOT robots...our feelings definitely go down the leash.
So for every great session, there are probably 3 or more that are a work in progress. 
I trialed this past weekend and the obedience was horribly embarrassing. My dog was so disengaged with me, probably because he thought he did something wrong due to my nerves and tight expression. Having a handler sensitive dog is great, but it is also a challenge!


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

You need to be fair. 
That means correcting when necessary and praising when necessary. 
There is no balance anywhere without the other.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Sunflowers said:


> You need to be fair.
> That means correcting when necessary and praising when necessary.
> There is no balance anywhere without the other.


In trialing, there is no correction(without points taken) and praise only in basic position.
Because we seldom train that way, during a trial, dogs are confused. 
I can understand the stress felt on both ends of the leash during trialing, it is so unbalanced!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

In AKC trials, no corrections are tolerated, it will get you NQd or DQd. And depending on the venue, praise can be used or can't be used, but no touching the dog. 

Of course it is pretty quickly over, so I don't think the dogs are too freaked out by it. And when we praise intermittently, the dog keeps trying to do good until the end, when we can praise, pet, etc. 

I usually don't even bring treats to a show, if you have them in the ring, you're done. But I will buy them a hot dog after all is done.


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## Guest (Oct 9, 2013)

Hi there. New to this group. What I heard you saying, is that your dog is HAPPY because you have finally taken a LEADERSHIP position. You have standards for his performance. And it is no longer for him to GUESS what they are (which is stressful for him).


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Great question.

Ironically I tried to give all my pets (from horses to hamsters) the treatment I wish I had received more of....I was saving me, through them.

Mostly I value fairness and loyalty and while not perfect it has always been my core desire to treat my animals the way I wish to be treated.





Merciel said:


> I'm not talking about the same _methods_. I'm not running speed SAT drills with my dogs and I don't expect them to go Ivy or bust (and not just _any_ Ivy, it has to be one of the good ones  ).
> 
> It's more about the underlying philosophical approach: _why_ you do what you do. What's your first instinct when tackling a novel problem? Why? What are your priorities? Why? That sort of question.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

So to what Gwenhwyfair and Merciel are saying - I have worked with humans in my professional life. With humans, when shaping behaviors, you aren't allowed to (in my field anyway) pinch their ears, push them, yank their head, etc, etc, while at the same time, have a need to shape, control, mold their behaviors for their continued progress, safety and learning. So you have to rely on your brain. 

That is my habit. When I got my first dog, I was told, when I went to a great trainer of Rottweilers, that this dog was not going to respond to physical correction (in a way that worked - it was going to result in blowback or shutdown or both), so to use what I use on humans, and see how it works. It completely worked. Two years of using more old school (early 90's) methods, switching to hands off, calmer methods, great gains and results (from wanting to bite kids to being tolerant and safe with kids as one example) that stayed a lifetime. Did not change the dog as the core of who he was - but neither did the corrections - and in the end, that dog was the dog I wanted (he could be kind of a jerk - I like that!). 

With both people and dogs, clarity is needed. Clarity does not have to be opposite of praise or treats (corrections) to be clear. People and dogs read faces and body language. People and dogs respond to enthusiasm, and lack of. The question to ask ourselves is_ how can I be perfectly clear with my dog, and do that without a correction_? The answer will vary due to differences in dogs. And the answer is often partially that clarity is paired with consistency - not just in training formally - but in how we deal with the dog all the time.


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