# Question on Medical Clearance from GSD Breeders



## cadavenc (Oct 19, 2021)

I have been looking a GSD puppy and contacted several highly praised breeders according to this forum. However, for medical clearance, most of them only did Hip and Elbow (from their pedigreedatabase link and phone conversations). I thought they should do OFA Hips/Elbows/Cardiac/Eyes and DNA test including DM and Hemophilia A. Are they cutting the corners or something else?

Look forward to your input. Thanks!

Dave


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## UnlimitedGSD (Oct 16, 2012)

The more health testing I do on my breeding dogs, the better I sleep at night. But that's just me - Everything is important, health testing isn't the only important thing, but it's definitely a big one!

I do 2 different hip certifications (because I like PennHip), elbows, spine, OCD (this is new and I still don't completely understand it LOL), genetic DNA (including DM and 201 other things - most don't even pertain to the breed!), Cardio, Eyes, Hypothyroidism (recommended by OFA so I did it on my new female). A lot of these tests are new from when I got into the breed and some older breeders may not do them. Unfortunately there are multiple ways to cut corners when it comes to breeding.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

hips/elbows and DM are the normal testing. I don't feel a breeder is cutting corners but I do wonder why an Embark panel isn't done on their breeding stock when it gives so much information. Spine is something new the SV and OFA are looking at but I don't think they really know what path to go down yet with the informaiton. I don't know why Hypothryroidism isn't tested for since it seems to be in our breed. I also send in a full dentition to OFA when I knock them out for hips/elbows since missing teeth is a real thing in the breed.


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## UnlimitedGSD (Oct 16, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> I don't know why Hypothryroidism isn't tested for since it seems to be in our breed


Funny, my vet asked why I was doing it. She said she'd never seen an issue.



Jax08 said:


> I also send in a full dentition to OFA when I knock them out for hips/elbows


Same


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## cadavenc (Oct 19, 2021)

When I asked those breeders why they didn't do other tests, their typical answers I received were like "we didn't see those happened in our breeding DDR bloodline" or "our dogs' longevity and health are superb so we don't need to test those". 

To all those breeders and/or other breeders), they all have increased the price from $2000+ to over $3000 or $3500 in 2022. I understand there are most testing requirement now and cost for those vet tests goes up, too. However, I'm disappointed to hear that most of them only do hip/elbow, not even DNA test to clear DM and Hemophilia, with this price markup.


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## UnlimitedGSD (Oct 16, 2012)

I think of the health testing that I do as a drop in the bucket of my breeding costs. It's not cheap (I probably will spend $2500 to test my current female) - but if you divide that by the number of puppies she could possibly produce, it's not expensive (and again, I sleep well). 
I also train in SchH so IMO these tests are necessary to make sure she is sound enough to do the sport.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Jax08 said:


> hips/elbows and DM are the normal testing. I don't feel a breeder is cutting corners but I do wonder why an Embark panel isn't done on their breeding stock when it gives so much information. Spine is something new the SV and OFA are looking at but I don't think they really know what path to go down yet with the informaiton. I don't know why Hypothryroidism isn't tested for since it seems to be in our breed. I also send in a full dentition to OFA when I knock them out for hips/elbows since missing teeth is a real thing in the breed.


Here is my experience with hypothyroid, the test is a picture of the day it was done only. I did hypothyroid tests on my Schipperke before breeding, she was good to go or so I thought. She had a very large litter and after started gaining weight. Then the patterned balding. Straight in to vet, full panel thyroid test done again but this time it showed autoimmune hypothyroid positive aka genetic. I spoke with Dr. Dodds and she explained, they all test negative until the thyroid has diminished enough to test positive. Sooooooo to my surprise OFA thyroid is useless. My vet and I discussed at great length and he himself was not aware how this works. He was then very upset to find out that once thyroid meds are started, they again will test clear of thyroid issues, he’s had many breeders do OFA after meds are started. He’s changed his policy now as a result. OFA states the dog must be off any thyroid meds for a certain time frame before OFA testing, kinda leaves the door wide open.



https://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/sites/g/files/dgvnsk491/files/local_resources/pdfs/lab_pdfs/OFA_THYROID_INFORMATION.PDF


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## UnlimitedGSD (Oct 16, 2012)

interesting! thanks


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

UnlimitedGSD said:


> Funny, my vet asked why I was doing it. She said she'd never seen an issue.
> 
> 
> 
> Same


I wish I’d thought to have dentition done when I had hips/elbows done. 
I did hips/elbows/DM/Embark.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

UnlimitedGSD said:


> Funny, my vet asked why I was doing it. She said she'd never seen an issue.
> 
> 
> 
> Same


I think it was one of the j litter olgameister dogs had it. Jai's brother. I think OFA recommends it?

I have the embark done on Faren plus dentition, SV hips, elbows, spine. I never thought about cardiac or eyes.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Jax08 said:


> I think it was one of the j litter olgameister dogs had it. Jai's brother. I think OFA recommends it?
> 
> I have the embark done on Faren plus dentition, SV hips, elbows, spine. I never thought about cardiac or eyes.


I did think of eyes but seeing Gus was already 7yrs old at time of testing, my repro vet said generally see these problems by now.
Are cardiac issues popping up a lot now?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Saphire said:


> I did think of eyes but seeing Gus was already 7yrs old at time of testing, my repro vet said generally see these problems by now.
> Are cardiac issues popping up a lot now?



The vet did a cardiac exam on Seger when he was out for OFAs but I never sent it in.


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

I agree with comment above on breeders current price increases. I looked at a recent litter but declined for both the price and bloodlines. $3500.00 full registration where it had been $1000 less a year before. And the testing scope was the same. Most of all, even though the male blood line is legitamate, it’s overhyped. I see it everywhere right now for this male (whose name I won’t reveal) two generations back, and I have yet to be impressed with any grandsons from his lineage, regardless of the bitches used. I am eyeballing litters/pairings four states away that I will travel to, to see before the mating. Another top breeder in my area has some good dogs, but one of his bitches is so squat and out of conformation I would not gamble on a pup from her. I believe he’s also over $3k, with no additional testing.


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## drparker151 (Apr 10, 2020)

Our breeder went up $500 from 2020 to 2022. With increases in food, medicine and vet bills I don't think that is unreasonable.


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## Hexenrudel (Feb 26, 2018)

Lee @UnlimitedGSD has written a nice article on her website in regards to all the expenses breeders have.
I'm a breeder too. Even when asking $3500 for a pup, I don't break even. It's a very expensive and time consuming hobby for small breeders.

The cost to feed my dogs, regular vet care, health testing, training (my decoy is $90/hour), trial fees, motels, gas, stud fees...the list is looooooong.

So even if the price of a pup has increased, it is still too low to cover the expenses of small dedicated breeders.


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## cadavenc (Oct 19, 2021)

I believer some breeders are working hard to title their dogs and do all the required medical clearance whom should charge a decent fee for their puppies; however, some other breeders are cutting corners (like the hip/elbow test only) and not even try hard to title their dogs are also charge a high mark-up fee. The issue is we can't tell who's trustworthy and who's not. Jus a reminder, the breeders I contacted are considered reputable breeders from this forum. I just don't understand why they don't do all the required tests listed from AKC website for GSD since they've been breeding for over 20 or even 30 years now.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

once upon a time, not very long ago, only hips were the standard… then hips/elbow, then hips/elbow/DM became the bare minimum. as medicine advances, and more test become available, the standard evolves and it can take some people longer than others to get on board….for a myriad of reasons. the people who have the power to change or expedite things are the puppy buyers. whether breeders believe in the tests or feel it’s relevant to their lines….or not.

but one thing that crossed my mind…. even tho it’s for the greater good of the breed, there are sometimes devastating results and moral/ethical dilemmas that can come from sudden/increased changes in testing. i work for a large service dog organization that has their own breeding program… this past year a new test became available and we “accidentally” found out that some of the dogs in our lines carried a gene for some condition that has the potential to effect their eyesight. even tho we weren’t seeing any trends of dogs being retired early due to poor eyesight, the organization still made the huge decision to eliminate that gene from our breeding pool. this meant retiring some very successful breeding dogs and interrupting/ending the training for at risk dogs and puppies already on the ground.

like i said, i imagine this could be devastating for a smaller scale breeding operation. you can’t unlearn that information.

certainly not excusing these breeders… just trying to offer a different perspective and make some sense of why someone might be hesitant, or may move more gradually.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

cadavenc said:


> I believer some breeders are working hard to title their dogs and do all the required medical clearance whom should charge a decent fee for their puppies; however, some other breeders are cutting corners (like the hip/elbow test only) and not even try hard to title their dogs are also charge a high mark-up fee. The issue is we can't tell who's trustworthy and who's not. Jus a reminder, the breeders I contacted are considered reputable breeders from this forum. I just don't understand why they don't do all the required tests listed from AKC website for GSD since they've been breeding for over 20 or even 30 years now.


Valid points. 🙂 what does the SV recommend for testing?


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## drparker151 (Apr 10, 2020)

3 years ago when I started research into getting a GSD I found very few breeders listing DM results, heck there were a lot only listing hips. It was because a breeder I was interested in listed the results that I learned about DM and the testing. 

Now I see a lot more elbow and DM results listed. 

Remember even people who work in fast changing high tech industries personally resist change. "What I/we have always done works, why change?"

As mentioned above the consumer drives change. The complete novice puppy buyers don't know enough to ask for it, the very experienced sport or breeder buyers have deep understanding of the pedigree and traits passed on and don't care so much if they find a pairing they like. 

It's buyers who know enough to ask but not enough to go on pedigree and history that really care.


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## cadavenc (Oct 19, 2021)

Very good insight in this. One thing I'd like to add is it also depends on whether this is a buyer market or seller market. If I knew enough to ask all the questions and found out some breeders don't do all the tests and the decline to buy from them, under the current situation (esp. this pandemic), they have no problem to sell their puppies so why change. Only time can tell.


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## drparker151 (Apr 10, 2020)

cadavenc said:


> Very good insight in this. One thing I'd like to add is it also depends on whether this is a buyer market or seller market. If I knew enough to ask all the questions and found out some breeders don't do all the tests and the decline to buy from them, under the current situation (esp. this pandemic), they have no problem to sell their puppies so why change. Only time can tell.


The glut of dogs hitting shelters and rescue now I think will switch things to a buyer's market. However, the really good known breeders who do a handful of breeding a year always have a waiting list building for planned pairings. Of course the bigger what I call "commercial" breeders seem to always have puppies for sale.


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

Hexenrudel said:


> Lee @UnlimitedGSD has written a nice article on her website in regards to all the expenses breeders have.
> I'm a breeder too. Even when asking $3500 for a pup, I don't break even. It's a very expensive and time consuming hobby for small breeders.
> 
> The cost to feed my dogs, regular vet care, health testing, training (my decoy is $90/hour), trial fees, motels, gas, stud fees...the list is looooooong.
> ...


Just for clarity, the recent liter I looked at used an untitled female, limited work on the male, and was relying most on the accomplishments of the male’s sire. I’m on board with business’s covering their cost, but there’s no justifying legacy feed/training/titling costs of all a person’s kennel on a 8-10 week old pup as described above. If memory serves, one of the dogs wasn’t even property of the kennel, but of a contact. That doesn’t mean there wasn’t promise with both dogs or the litter, but it does point to more pervasive pricing upticks to the next $1000 increment. In economics language, marginal utility is obviously an issue and we’re seeing diminishing returns in some cases. Last of all, 8 week old pups, even from nice pedigrees, and apparent consistent litters, are no guarantee of getting all the great qualities in one dog two generations back. They’re still a bit of an unknown quantity until proven otherwise, and at that age they’re not titled or trained.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

An Embark panel runs about $150 on sale. I really find no excuse to not do this on all up and coming potential breeding dogs. It tells you EVERYTHING.


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## UnlimitedGSD (Oct 16, 2012)

the SV is now doing hips/elbows/spine(LUW) and OCD. Even my vet (who is certified to do their x-rays) is confused with the OCD aspect. Regardless, I will do it - the more testing the better. Total SV testing recently cost me about $1500 (included PennHip). Would I take my female out of the breeding pool for less than perfect results - no. 
My kennel started with a DM carrier - always bred to a clear.
My last litter of 1 cost me $5000.00 (stud fee, c-section, 2 ultrasounds, progesterone & antibiotics because of issues). That female had a total of 7 puppies in 3 litters (and now will be spayed) and if I look at the math I didn't make a dime.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

UnlimitedGSD said:


> the SV is now doing hips/elbows/spine(LUW) and OCD. Even my vet (who is certified to do their x-rays) is confused with the OCD aspect. Regardless, I will do it - the more testing the better. Total SV testing recently cost me about $1500 (included PennHip). Would I take my female out of the breeding pool for less than perfect results - no.
> My kennel started with a DM carrier - always bred to a clear.
> My last litter of 1 cost me $5000.00 (stud fee, c-section, 2 ultrasounds, progesterone & antibiotics because of issues). That female had a total of 7 puppies in 3 litters (and now will be spayed) and if I look at the math I didn't make a dime.


And that's without taking into consideration the hundreds of hours you spent training to decide if she was breedworthy in drives and temperament.


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## UnlimitedGSD (Oct 16, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> And that's without taking into consideration the hundreds of hours you spent training to decide if she was breedworthy in drives and temperament.


Exactly! That part of breeding is far more expensive and just as important than anything else. This is why I don't believe in breeding untitled dogs.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

It used to be a good breeder on this board who always stated that she does not include cost of training into the calculation. Why? Because she would train her dogs regardless, travelled, trialed. A hobby breeder should not expect to recoup all costs by breeding puppies but simply to off set costs of his or her expensive hobby, i.e. dogs and dog training. Just my, obviously, unpopular opinion.


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## UnlimitedGSD (Oct 16, 2012)

I don't expect to recoup any of that - and yes, I would do it anyway. But when I see dogs being sold from untitled parents for the same $ as mine and they did nothing with theirs....it's annoying.
There are other costs besides health that are directly related to training/trialing - like looking at stud dogs, meeting them, watching them train/trial. Can't always do that sitting at a computer.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

UnlimitedGSD said:


> Exactly! That part of breeding is far more expensive and just as important than anything else. This is why I don't believe in breeding untitled dogs.


The general buyer has no idea what it takes to get a dog to "breedworthy". Right up until I did Faren's 1, I was on the fence. Then she really showed me what she had in trial. Now as we move forward I can pick out her weaknesses and strengths. What parts are her and what parts are training, or lack of. And outside opinions of people matter. When I go someplace and experienced people say "I like her! Love to see a hard hitting female!" It validates what you see without the bias. I also think they do not understand breeders, good breeders, aren't breeding for the buyers. They are breeding out of love of the breed and to maintain our breed. It's not as simple as run a medical test and breed to another good medical test. Our time is worth something. Risking my female to produce a litter is worth something.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

GSD07 said:


> It used to be a good breeder on this board who always stated that she does not include cost of training into the calculation. Why? Because she would train her dogs regardless, travelled, trialed. A hobby breeder should not expect to recoup all costs by breeding puppies but simply to off set costs of his or her expensive hobby, i.e. dogs and dog training. Just my, obviously, unpopular opinion.


I would not expect to recoup my costs. Nor would a litter come close to offsetting my time or costs. I do expect my effort to be respected and not dismissed as "well you should do that anyways so it doesn't mean anything" and have people complain about prices of puppies as if a breeder is obligated to lose money. That's the part that sticks with me. It's an entitlement factor


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## UnlimitedGSD (Oct 16, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> The general buyer has no idea what it takes to get a dog to "breedworthy". Right up until I did Faren's 1, I was on the fence. Then she really showed me what she had in trial. Now as we move forward I can pick out her weaknesses and strengths. What parts are her and what parts are training, or lack of. And outside opinions of people matter. When I go someplace and experienced people say "I like her! Love to see a hard hitting female!" It validates what you see without the bias. I also think they do not understand breeders, good breeders, aren't breeding for the buyers. They are breeding out of love of the breed and to maintain our breed. It's not as simple as run a medical test and breed to another good medical test. Our time is worth something. Risking my female to produce a litter is worth something.


yes, all of this! 
And your last sentence is why I have retired my IGP 3 female from breeding after 3 litters. The last two were too difficult IMO. Not worth it to sell someone a puppy.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I agree with all the above. I simply think that no justification and accounting attempts are needed to defend the price. If I feel my time and my expertise are worth a certain amount I surely will not be justifying anything to my potential clients or competition.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I actually think that’s the breeders always say they lose money. As a buyer I am focused on different things and the breeders income statement is not one of them.


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## UnlimitedGSD (Oct 16, 2012)

I definitely don't lose money on every litter. I also don't want to focus on the $ aspect of breeding because I'd probably give up! Overall I don't make money - but I could if I did things differently. Getting rid of females when they were done producing, only minimal titles, no surveys, local trials only, minimal health testing, breeding more, using my own stud dog over and over... 
I'm just not that smart!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

UnlimitedGSD said:


> I don't expect to recoup any of that - and yes, I would do it anyway. But when I see dogs being sold from untitled parents for the same $ as mine and they did nothing with theirs....it's annoying.
> There are other costs besides health that are directly related to training/trialing - like looking at stud dogs, meeting them, watching them train/trial. Can't always do that sitting at a computer.


sooo annoying! or when someone says they are going to rush thru a title to get the 1 so they can get stud fees while we are trying to do things the right way to maintain our breed.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

For the record - I'm not "justifying" anything to anyone. I just want buyers that are complaining about prices to understand all the components that go into proving a dog breedworthy before a litter is even considered. If you aren't on the field doing, then you can not possibly understand the hours of yourself that you pour into these dogs both the ups and hte downs, the dogs that have been washed out of breeding for whatever reason, the heartache of seeing your female almost losing her life and the entire litter (yes, that happened to a good friend). If people don't think all that is worth $3000 a puppy...then don't buy one. 

I'm as adament about that as I am that there is no reason for a breeder to not run all the genetics tests and do the proper xrays to ensure the dog is healthy.


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

Some of the testing is fluff, even DM is overblown. Some of it is absolutely missing. A while back, @wolfstraum commented to me that folks are knowingly breeding dogs with bad backs, and producing bad backs, but do it for the marketing. Again, if a dog is worth it is one thing, but breeders that lock arms and all seem to land at the $3000, $3500 mark, or any mark are simply skimming the market. If both sides of a pairing warrant higher prices AND have shown they produce litters that carry that forward then there’s justification for premium pricing. But just because certain kennels do that for a while, then brood stock changes and outside dogs are leased, the new litters are up for scrutiny, and don’t always justify status quo prices. In fact a responsible breeder might hold those dogs back. People can ask whatever price they want, and some people will pay it, but it isn’t justified. And yes, most people take back a Big Mac at McDonalds when it’s missing pickles, so it isn’t unreasonable to make breeders tow the line. And NO, every litter on every yard should not be priced the same because of someone’s ego, or their attempt to unload every expense they have for the year on a marginal,
quick money pairing.


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

UnlimitedGSD said:


> I don't expect to recoup any of that - and yes, I would do it anyway. But when I see dogs being sold from untitled parents for the same $ as mine and they did nothing with theirs....it's annoying.
> There are other costs besides health that are directly related to training/trialing - like looking at stud dogs, meeting them, watching them train/trial. Can't always do that sitting at a computer.


Very true, just like any business. Hidden costs abound If you’re committed to the end product, at least for the business owner.


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## cadavenc (Oct 19, 2021)

I'm willing to pay $3000 for a puppy from a litter if breeder did all the required testing and properly titled; if that's not the case, then I will decline. Just like I buy a sandwich from a restaurant, if they kept increasing the price of that sandwich, I tasted it no better than before (or even missing some ingredients), I will decline. I know the restaurant owner may say they're losing money, but all I want is a good sandwich with a reasonable price and quality. Just my humble opinion.


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

I would imagine that’s what most dog buyers want as well, just fairness and not myth marketing.


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## mnm (Jan 9, 2006)

I don't do Embark testing. There's only a limited number of results that are pertinent to our breed. I do offically test Hips, Elbows, Back and DM. So far, all mine have been DM Clear and the males that I have bred to are also DM Clear, except for one male, quite a few years ago that was tested after I had bred to him and he was affected. That was right around the time the testing was coming out and people were just beginning to test. The last few, I submitted to OFA for prelim's or officials, depending on their age, and also to the SV. I know what colors my females carry. I know what coat length they carry. I just sent off DNA samples on my current litter of 6 puppies, because both parents carry a coat gene, and some puppy buyers do not want a coat, which I totally understand. That's why I spend the extra to test for it. I include copies of all health testing for the puppy buyer's with all their paperwork. 

The basics for the breed are Hips, Elbows, Back and DM.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Rionel said:


> Some of the testing is fluff, even DM is overblown. Some of it is absolutely missing. A while back, @wolfstraum commented to me that folks are knowingly breeding dogs with bad backs, and producing bad backs, but do it for the marketing. Again, if a dog is worth it is one thing*, but breeders that lock arms and all seem to land at the $3000, $3500 mark, or any mark are simply skimming the market.* If both sides of a pairing warrant higher prices AND have shown they produce litters that carry that forward then there’s justification for premium pricing. But just because certain kennels do that for a while, then brood stock changes and outside dogs are leased, the new litters are up for scrutiny, and don’t always justify status quo prices. In fact a responsible breeder might hold those dogs back. People can ask whatever price they want, and some people will pay it, but it isn’t justified. And yes, most people take back a Big Mac at McDonalds when it’s missing pickles, so it isn’t unreasonable to make breeders tow the line. And NO, every litter on every yard should not be priced the same because of someone’s ego, or their attempt to unload every expense they have for the year on a marginal,
> quick money pairing.


Well I have to take exception to the bold text .......breeding is much much more than the investment in ONE litter - for example - I purchased frozen semen on 2 males...........I have well OVER $25,000 (Twenty Five Thousand Dollars) in that semen, shipping, storing, testing, paperwork, and attempting to get a litter (at least 4 failures). Training, trialing, vet work, vehicles and crates (good ones, not airlines), insurance - all those expenses are part of a breeding program. Prices when I started were less than $1000, and I never asked $3000/3500 for an 8 week old puppy. Puppies are NOT a Big Mac, produced to a cookie cutter recipe!!!! There is an inherent risk in producing any living creature - dog, horse, cattle....and anyone looking seriously into this breed should educate themselves and must accept that risk as well. Unfortunately, not all breeders feel the same way about what is an acceptable risk.

The problem is with citing my comments about bad backs is that priorities for many breeders are to use what is winning, and the lack of honesty in the US about issues - or just the plain don't give a flying squirrel about health issues if the lines are winning.

Now - stud fees - that is another story....

Lee


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## cadavenc (Oct 19, 2021)

wolfstraum said:


> Well I have to take exception to the bold text .......breeding is much much more than the investment in ONE litter - for example - I purchased frozen semen on 2 males...........I have well OVER $25,000 (Twenty Five Thousand Dollars) in that semen, shipping, storing, testing, paperwork, and attempting to get a litter (at least 4 failures). Training, trialing, vet work, vehicles and crates (good ones, not airlines), insurance - all those expenses are part of a breeding program. Prices when I started were less than $1000, and I never asked $3000/3500 for an 8 week old puppy. Puppies are NOT a Big Mac, produced to a cookie cutter recipe!!!! There is an inherent risk in producing any living creature - dog, horse, cattle....and anyone looking seriously into this breed should educate themselves and must accept that risk as well. Unfortunately, not all breeders feel the same way about what is an acceptable risk.
> 
> The problem is with citing my comments about bad backs is that priorities for many breeders are to use what is winning, and the lack of honesty in the US about issues - or just the plain don't give a flying squirrel about health issues if the lines are winning.
> 
> ...


I welcome more input from breeders' side. I think the purpose of this forum is to exchange information for people who love GSD.

Dave


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

I don’t pretend to speak for you or anyone Lee. You made the comment and I fed it back to the forum. MY comments were for a breeder that gets bandied about here and WDF sometimes, who has a decent rep, but who really skimped on the litter I mentioned. I believe one of the dogs didn’t even have orthos. So it doesn’t matter what overhead a given breeder has, if they skimp on one litter and try to cover all their costs by marking up those pups, it’s just unethical. And I’ve been a breeder with plenty of healthy pups, and I have ample education and business experience. And just how much trialing, vet work and training do you have in an 8 week old dog? Let’s use your figures. $25k over four failed litters. That’s what accounting write offs are designed for. As I stated above, IF the work is put into a litter that has PROVEN offspring from a previous pairing of the two dogs, premium prices are warranted. Just not breeders working only off their previous success for dogs that are retired or dead. I never made derogatory comments about your program so it’s a shame for this to devolve into tribalism.

And by the way, maybe try live cover. The success rates are better.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Another way for some established breeders to maintain their small and hobby status is to farm out their female dogs so the supply of puppies sold under the kennel name can be constant, and no need to take care of breeding females, do any training, have additional room etc. This is a general observation, not related to anyone in particular, I just noticed this when I was looking for a puppy.


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## cadavenc (Oct 19, 2021)

GSD07 said:


> Another way for some established breeders to maintain their small and hobby status is to farm out their female dogs so the supply of puppies sold under the kennel name can be constant, and no need to take care of breeding females, do any training, have additional room etc. This is a general observation, not related to anyone in particular, I just noticed this when I was looking for a puppy.


Do you mean co-ownership? All the breeders I contacted have a lot of co-owned dogs.


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

GSD07 said:


> Another way for some established breeders to maintain their small and hobby status is to farm out their female dogs so the supply of puppies sold under the kennel name can be constant, and no need to take care of breeding females, do any training, have additional room etc. This is a general observation, not related to anyone in particular, I just noticed this when I was looking for a puppy.


I agree and it’s totally fine, but unfortunately, many breeders try to pass the pups off as optimum. First, I’ve never seen a complete litter be perfect in every regard for the breed at hand, and as I was apparently admonished for, puppies are NOT Big Macs, which I never said. Second, when a kennel does lease a female or use outside stud services, all continuity is out the window for the kennel- UNLESS the pairing has been proved in prior breedings. Serious breeders don’t even like the point when they have to outcross from their stock. I am not sure what all the excitement was about but I have no problem with never ( yeah, I know that’s a double negative, but I’m a pedantic SOB) quoting Lee again. The sad part is that the quote I used was from where she responded to my question about a trainer named Avi Cohen. I got flack for bringing up his name as well, though I don’t know him and asked a genuine question. And I don’t know Lee, and don’t mean to tarnish her in any way. I have no idea why she took my comments so personally.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Rionel said:


> I don’t pretend to speak for you or anyone Lee. You made the comment and I fed it back to the forum. MY comments were for a breeder that gets bandied about here and WDF sometimes, who has a decent rep, but who really skimped on the litter I mentioned. I believe one of the dogs didn’t even have orthos. So it doesn’t matter what overhead a given breeder has, if they skimp on one litter and try to cover all their costs by marking up those pups, it’s just unethical. And I’ve been a breeder with plenty of healthy pups, and I have ample education and business experience. And just how much trialing, vet work and training do you have in an 8 week old dog? Let’s use your figures. $25k over four failed litters. That’s what accounting write offs are designed for. As I stated above, IF the work is put into a litter that has PROVEN offspring from a previous pairing of the two dogs, premium prices are warranted. Just not breeders working only off their previous success for dogs that are retired or dead. I never made derogatory comments about your program so it’s a shame for this to devolve into tribalism.
> 
> And by the way, maybe try live cover. The success rates are better.



I did not take the comments personally at all. Just presenting info regarding the costs involved with breeding programs. Tribalism??????? It makes not an iota of logic to offer the concept of pricing an 8 week old pup on the vet work and training for that specific pup??? And as you know, in business, there are many ny costs that go into a finished product....you don't change the pricing each and every day taking into account variables in cost each day. 

What is ironic, is that the litters I have seen at this $3000-3500 are generally very commercial breeders who produce a product - like many of the showline and DDR/niche breeders - not breeders with an actual program developing a consistent family through generations...and I do think geographic economics can also affect pricing.

And as far as trying live cover - if you know a way to bring back the males from the dead, or restore fertility in an older dog - please share 

Lee


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

@wolfstraum Agreed! Look, I’m a fan and recommend your posts because of your experience. I am glad you ARE out there. We might not agree on business models lol, but I absolutely meant nothing derogatory about you. Sorry I got up on my heels about my education about dogs or otherwise. Peace.

also, the litter was WL from. LE breeder.


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

Btw, thanks for clearing up my apparent misunderstanding!


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## Hopps (Dec 5, 2021)

Jax08 said:


> I would not expect to recoup my costs. Nor would a litter come close to offsetting my time or costs. I do expect my effort to be respected and not dismissed as "well you should do that anyways so it doesn't mean anything" and have people complain about prices of puppies as if a breeder is obligated to lose money. That's the part that sticks with me. It's an entitlement factor


People can be so entitled and honestly a bit monstrous. I think most of the issue comes from a serious lack of respect for what reputable breeders do. Before adopting Fern I had entertained the idea of buying a puppy for about $3k. My friends gave me a lot of crap for it because it's so expensive and how "they would never pay that much for a dog when there are cheap ones in the shelter". One of them bought a French Bulldog from a BYB, they paid about $15k. Their justification was that it was a business opportunity and they had gotten it for "free". The BYB explained to them that the initial $15k investment would double or triple when the dog has puppies. They can then sell the puppies for $10k each and they only need to wait for 8 months to 1.5 years for the breeding to start. The breeder would offer a discount on the studfee from $2k to $500 if you bought a dog from her. It was essentially a pyramid scheme, using dogs as the item. The BYB literally invited her to a facebook group so they can see how "successful" the other people were. I saw people like this at a store I worked at. They weren't even wealthy, they just wanted a fad breed with the opportunity to make money. Literally a BYB pyramid scheme.

Of course at the end of it, they said the breeders I looked at were "scammers" because they don't allow you to have the freedom to breed your dog etc. On the other hand I sent a breeder a question via email and she literally called me in 3 days. She had a litter of GSD puppies screaming in the background while driving to the vet for their shots, all because I had sent a email with a question. It's crazy what excellent breeders are willing to do to educate even an ignorant random like me.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

@Hopps yeah...that sucks. more poorly bred unhealthy dogs  

Just to address a couple of things. First, my female was a greatly reduced price and the breeder has the first two litters from her. It was an agreement between me and her. It's not uncommon and the agreement itself has nothing wrong with it. So we can't demonize a handler/owner - Breeder agreement where the breeder has rights to a litter. It's often about a bloodline. Would I do it again? No. But only because I'm cringing at the idea of having to give my dog up for several weeks during the whelping and I didn't know I would feel that way when we made this agreement. So you really have to look at the whole picture in those types of agreements. After those two litters, I know who I want to breed her to and it's a dog that died a few years ago so it will be AI. I want THAT bloodline and want to bring a certain line in there close up because I know what it produces. 

Limited registration protects the dogs. My female still has limited registration on her. Eventually it will get changed to full. And you can explain to your friends that an owner simply has to title the dog to get full registration.


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## Hexenrudel (Feb 26, 2018)

Saphire said:


> Here is my experience with hypothyroid, the test is a picture of the day it was done only. I did hypothyroid tests on my Schipperke before breeding, she was good to go or so I thought. She had a very large litter and after started gaining weight. Then the patterned balding. Straight in to vet, full panel thyroid test done again but this time it showed autoimmune hypothyroid positive aka genetic. I spoke with Dr. Dodds and she explained, they all test negative until the thyroid has diminished enough to test positive. Sooooooo to my surprise OFA thyroid is useless. My vet and I discussed at great length and he himself was not aware how this works. He was then very upset to find out that once thyroid meds are started, they again will test clear of thyroid issues, he’s had many breeders do OFA after meds are started. He’s changed his policy now as a result. OFA states the dog must be off any thyroid meds for a certain time frame before OFA testing, kinda leaves the door wide open.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/sites/g/files/dgvnsk491/files/local_resources/pdfs/lab_pdfs/OFA_THYROID_INFORMATION.PDF


You bring a very interesting point here.

A long time ago, I had a talk with a CERF vet. In some breeds, cherry eyes ( prolapse of the third eyelid gland) is common. He said owners could have it fixed surgically and he would never know. Thus, this dog with a genetic problem could end up having a CERF certification.
I'm guessing some problems likes Pannus in GSD could also be hidden with eyedrops.
So to me, some health tests are not necessarily relevant.

I have my dogs Embark tested now. I was a little bit skeptical at first but after seeing a few reports, I must say they seem very reliable.
I'm more interested in knowing the dominant/recessive/sex-linked genes that my dogs carry than testing for a disease that may not be genetic.
Of course, I do test for hips/elbows and the OFA will look for a LTV as well. I like to see the H/E results of the littermates, uncles/aunts and so son, not just the dogs on the pedigree.

Other diseases like heart, I trust my regular vet. Some issues are common in certain breeds but not ours.
Breeding such a versatile breed is not an easy task when a breeder cares.


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## Hopps (Dec 5, 2021)

Jax08 said:


> @Hopps yeah...that sucks. more poorly bred unhealthy dogs
> 
> Just to address a couple of things. First, my female was a greatly reduced price and the breeder has the first two litters from her. It was an agreement between me and her. It's not uncommon and the agreement itself has nothing wrong with it. So we can't demonize a handler/owner - Breeder agreement where the breeder has rights to a litter. It's often about a bloodline. Would I do it again? No. But only because I'm cringing at the idea of having to give my dog up for several weeks during the whelping and I didn't know I would feel that way when we made this agreement. So you really have to look at the whole picture in those types of agreements. After those two litters, I know who I want to breed her to and it's a dog that died a few years ago so it will be AI. I want THAT bloodline and want to bring a certain line in there close up because I know what it produces.
> 
> Limited registration protects the dogs. My female still has limited registration on her. Eventually it will get changed to full. And you can explain to your friends that an owner simply has to title the dog to get full registration.


Yeah I noticed that reputable breeders fiercely protect their dogs with limited registration, which is something I completely agree with. Unfortunately, my friends (no longer friends) think that is a huge infringement of their rights to not have a full registration. I believe one of them got a pedigree for their dog but no registration with the AKC (lol). Another person paid an extra for full registration, I believe it was around 2-3k. Her aunt also got a frenchie from the same breeder, it lost use of the back legs at the age of two due to some sort of spine issue. They just carry the dog in their purse and asked the vet if the dog can still breed. That's what they all seem to be worried about. I'm probably way too dramatic but I pretty much ended my friendship with them over it and many other friendships. They were great people in other aspects but I guess you never know a person until you see how they treat their dogs imo!

Regardless of the cringey and imo terrible people I just talked about, there's still so many amazing breeders and dog owners out here. It's great that the breeder of your dog and you have a trustworthy relationship to do that. I hope I will find a breeder that I can have a solid relationship with for when I get myself a pup in a few years. I started the legwork a few weeks ago and it's a complicated world.


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## UnlimitedGSD (Oct 16, 2012)

Hopps said:


> it lost use of the back legs at the age of two due to some sort of spine issue. They just carry the dog in their purse and asked the vet if the dog can still breed.


Wow!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Rionel said:


> Some of the testing is fluff, even DM is overblown.


I don't know if you'd say that if you've ever had a DM dog. I raced Halo in flyball for 5 years. She started showing signs that something was wrong a couple of months past her 8th birthday. It took a few more months before we ruled out everything else it could be and confirmed that it was DM. When I retired her she was the #19 ranked GSD of all time in the North American Flyball Association. She was gone by 9-1/2. It was devastating and heartbreaking to watch our athlete slowly go paralyzed and turn into an invalid. 

It's not something I'd wish on anyone and I never want to go through it again. I'm aware that there's some controversy about how accurate the DM test is, but I still want to see it done and I won't even consider a puppy from parents that haven't been tested. 

Cava is our first GSD that came with full registration. I didn't care either way and I don't think the breeder even discussed it with me beforehand, that's just what was on the paperwork. We have a good relationship, she knew what I was looking for, which was not a dog to breed and make a bunch of money off of. She doesn't breed often, and this specific litter was for her. She ended up keeping two of the four, so I know she didn't make any money, lol. She chose the sole male as her next working dog and her husband wouldn't let her part with the other longcoat female, so she's working both of them.


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## cadavenc (Oct 19, 2021)

I take my hat off to those breeders with their hearts for the love of GSDs. They care the financial side since everyone needs to eat but money should never be the #1 priority in list, imho.


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I don't know if you'd say that if you've ever had a DM dog. I raced Halo in flyball for 5 years. She started showing signs that something was wrong a couple of months past her 8th birthday. It took a few more months before we ruled out everything else it could be and confirmed that it was DM. When I retired her she was the #19 ranked GSD of all time in the North American Flyball Association. She was gone by 9-1/2. It was devastating and heartbreaking to watch our athlete slowly go paralyzed and turn into an invalid.
> 
> It's not something I'd wish on anyone and I never want to go through it again. I'm aware that there's some controversy about how accurate the DM test is, but I still want to see it done and I won't even consider a puppy from parents that haven't been tested.
> 
> Cava is our first GSD that came with full registration. I didn't care either way and I don't think the breeder even discussed it with me beforehand, that's just what was on the paperwork. We have a good relationship, she knew what I was looking for, which was not a dog to breed and make a bunch of money off of. She doesn't breed often, and this specific litter was for her. She ended up keeping two of the four, so I know she didn't make any money, lol. She chose the sole male as her next working dog and her husband wouldn't let her part with the other longcoat female, so she's working both of them.


Actually I buried my female Rough Collie last year with DM (as far as the vet ruled out) . It is truly gut wrenching. My comment about DM was more about the fear it induces in people. A lot of writings indicate it is less an issue than decades back (kudos to testing and conscientious breeders). As another poster mentions above, when a dog has one gene (carrier) but is a really good specimen, it can be responsibly bred to a clear dog. Sorry you lost one to DM too!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Rionel said:


> As another poster mentions above, when a dog has one gene (carrier) but is a really good specimen, it can be responsibly bred to a clear dog.


Agreed. Carrier to clear should be fine and I know limiting the gene pool too much can carry its own issues. Halo was born in November 2008, I don't think the test had been out for long then and was certainly not being routinely used. The sire was later tested as a carrier, so the dam must have been a carrier too. I don't know of any other dogs from that litter who got DM, so the dam was probably not A/A like Halo. She was retired to a pet home and I don't know if they ever tested her. 

Sorry about your dog, it really is an awful thing to go through, particularly with a young, healthy dog.


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## Hopps (Dec 5, 2021)

UnlimitedGSD said:


> Wow!


Same here dude. All I can say is "wow" sometimes. I found it better for my sanity if I just cut them out


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