# Another brag, sorry



## wolfy dog

I can't get over Griff's fast progress. Sorry for another one but you guys understand this stuff where my hubby finds it all normal (I do all the training btw) and people around me are not interested in these brags.
OK, about this evening's dual fetching. I didn't have the energy to work them separately so I took them both out to the back field. They raced to the outdoor toy box when I asked them where their balls were. Stood there calmly but super excited at the same time, like they found it when I couldn't.
I have never played fetch with both of them off leash at the same time. Griff has learned to wait (either one-on-one or with Deja present in a down-stay) when I throw at toy and will get it on "Find It!" He releases it nicely and easily. So I decided to take a chance; have them both sit next to me, throw the ball for Deja and told Griff to stay next to me. And he did it!!!! while she got the ball . They took turns without any fails! 
Next: a basket full of toys. Both dogs sitting next to me. I throw the toys, one by one in various directions, some out of sight (Deja has always been good at this but I never played this with Griff, let alone with the two together) and both dogs remained in a sit!!! I couldn't believe it. Then they got "Find It!" and both searched frantically under peer pressure, no fighting over a 'find', returned the toys and released them. How's that for an 8 month old? He tested me a lot when he was between 5 and 7 months old but boy, did my work pay off. I know that some of you didn't agree with the early use of the prong but he also walks nicely on a flat collar now. He is a dog who demands proof of leadership but once we have an agreement, it is solid. Never experienced this in a dog. When he was in that intense stage at 5 - 7 months, I told my hubby that if Griff and I make it together, he will be my master piece and he is already. But....knock on wood :grin2:


----------



## Aly

Funny how it's always "amazing" when your hard work with a very good dog pays off.  Can't wait to see what the two of you accomplish in another year.


----------



## car2ner

bravo! It can be tricky working two off leash at the same time. Looks like your pair has figured out that they have fun if they follow directions.


----------



## dogma13

Excellent!May the good days continue to way outnumber the bad days
I think dogs enjoy playing and working together.Mine have great enthusiasm and focus in a pack situation.


----------



## tim_s_adams

Congratulations Wolfy! Griff sounds like an amazing dog already, and it will no doubt just keep getting better and better as he matures!

One thing that struck home with me in your description of his attitude over time, was the fact that 5-7 months were the most challenging. That has been my experience as well with Nyx. She was almost too darn perfect at 4 months. At just over 5 months was the first time in her life that she clearly decided to wilfully disobey a recall. Looked right at me, thought about it, and decided not to do what she was being told. She also started barking at people and dogs while riding in the car, and a few other things like lunging at dogs as we passed them...basic adolescent behaviors! 

We worked through these issues for a couple months, and by 7 months she was again back to her former perfect self - having learned that these things would not be tolerated >

My point is, I hear people all the time talking about dogs that are much older than 7 months as being "in" adolescence. But based on my experiences with puppies and young dogs, the adolescent period comes and goes much earlier than a year, even in slow maturing dogs. So any "adolescent " behavior your dog is showing at 1 or more years of age is more attributable to a lack of training than adolescence! And in my mind that's an important distinction because it helps to better target your approach in training at those ages...


----------



## wolfy dog

tim_s_adams said:


> Congratulations Wolfy! Griff sounds like an amazing dog already, and it will no doubt just keep getting better and better as he matures!
> 
> One thing that struck home with me in your description of his attitude over time, was the fact that 5-7 months were the most challenging. That has been my experience as well with Nyx. She was almost too darn perfect at 4 months. At just over 5 months was the first time in her life that she clearly decided to wilfully disobey a recall. Looked right at me, thought about it, and decided not to do what she was being told. She also started barking at people and dogs while riding in the car, and a few other things like lunging at dogs as we passed them...basic adolescent behaviors!
> 
> We worked through these issues for a couple months, and by 7 months she was again back to her former perfect self - having learned that these things would not be tolerated >
> 
> My point is, I hear people all the time talking about dogs that are much older than 7 months as being "in" adolescence. But based on my experiences with puppies and young dogs, the adolescent period comes and goes much earlier than a year, even in slow maturing dogs. So any "adolescent " behavior your dog is showing at 1 or more years of age is more attributable to a lack of training than adolescence! And in my mind that's an important distinction because it helps to better target your approach in training at those ages...


Fully agree. These are such interesting observations. I think what hinders many of us is NOT keeping an open mind but sticking to whatever is in fashion. Not in a million years would I have thought about putting on a prong on a 5 month old. But you know what? He doesn't know what pulling is and I don't have to fuss with treats on a walk. Sometimes walking back wards, even off leash but that's all. I did it based on his personality. And more of these revelations.
An opposite anecdote. In the breeder's group session is a guy with a young (1 year maybe) large Mastiff, fully cropped/docked protection breed. The dog is scared and overwhelmed and thus not successful with the old style techniques and his callous acting owner. Instead of confrontating him, I made sure I was in close proximity of him with Griff. I still use treats and reward for his good behavior unlike everyone else in that group and I hoped he would pick up on that as he must have noticed Griff's young age and good results. Yesterday for the first time I saw him praising and patting his dog. What I have learned from especially Griff, is to prevent issues by first to fully understand the dog before choosing which training technique/tools to use so you don't have to undo behavior. And yes, I think that time is way before the 5 month mark or whenever you see the first signals. Not thinking "Oh it's the puppy in him" but realizing that his canine pack members would not put up with any of that either. By really understanding their mind/soul the sky is the limit. I often compare it to horse dressage (in my younger years); that feeling of lightness of walking, trotting on air when they accept the bit and the reins feel soft in your hands and their mouth is moist. Oh, I loved that.


----------



## CometDog

That is fantastic! Patience, consistency, making it a point to always keep learning...makes for great dogs <3


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Any adolescent behavior shown around one year is science and biology. A year old dog maturity wise is @ equivalent to a 13 year old human. A five or six month old puppy is like a first grader starting to explore their world and beginning to be independent, much like a child in that stage begins to refuse to hold their mother's hand and begins to want to do things for their self, not to be confused with adolescence.

With all the dogs I have had and have now, only one gave me any issues starting at five months and I am humble enough to admit it was the trainer.


----------



## wolfy dog

I go by the dog I have in front of me, not by the books. I am not sure what you meant though.


----------



## tim_s_adams

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Any adolescent behavior shown around one year is science and biology. A year old dog maturity wise is @ equivalent to a 13 year old human. ...
> 
> With all the dogs I have had and have now, only one gave me any issues starting at five months and I am humble enough to admit it was the trainer.


Interesting, because your assessment is so diametrically opposed to what I've experienced! I'm curious how you hit on the 1 yr mark for a dog being equivalent to a 13 yr old human? If dogs progressed linearly, wouldn't that be equivalent to a 7 yr old human?

For me, adolescence is marked by when the puppy starts making their own decisions, and often acting in ways they used to, or seemed to, understand were inappropriate. Like barking at people from the car as we pass. My puppy did this when she was 3 months old, and I let her know it was not okay. She stopped...but spontaneously started again about the same time as she started willfully blowing off recall @5+ months. 

While a 1 yr old dog is still far from fully mature; behavior-wise, my dogs have all completely finished with their "challenging, bratty behaviors" by then. My dog is now 20 months, and has not shown any defiance after about 7 months. So, if during the intervening months she entered and exited her adolescence, she's been the best behaved teenager ever! Maybe I'm just lucky...


----------



## wolfy dog

MineAreWorkingline said:


> A five or six month old puppy is like a first grader starting to explore their world and beginning to be independent, much like a child in that stage begins to refuse to hold their mother's hand and begins to want to do things for their self, not to be confused with adolescence.


With all the pups I have raised and fostered I saw this very behavior at around 10 - 11 weeks. These were all different breeds and mutts and with various temperaments but all were sane. This is also the age of land-sharking and no way will I ever see the resemblance with a first grader (retired elementary teacher here). Generally speaking, once that is over at around 15 - 16 weeks, there is calm time until the 5 - 6 month when ****can hit the fan in some dogs. it did with Griff. I have the scar on my foot from a puncture wound. A first grader would not do that 
I actually don't think you can compare dogs' life stages with people's anyways.
I think this is an interesting discussion and maybe it should be moved in its own thread so more people could chime in. Possible moderators?


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

@Tim, it is not my assessment about adolescence. That has been predetermined by biologists and other professionals. It was established long ago that a year old dog equates to a 13 year old human, a 2 year old dog equates to a 24 year old human with each additional year averaging 4 years. According to biologists and other scientists, adolescence can begin as early as 9 months or much later, usually with small dogs starting sooner and larger breeds later. I am flattered that you think that I was involved in this research but no, like everyone else, I am merely one that benefits from it.

I am not saying that puppies may not begin to exhibit autonomous behaviors prior to adolescence, I am simply saying that many of those behaviors are a part of the growing up process but not a part of the adolescent phase. Just like the five or six year old child who wants to feed their self, dress their self or do other independent behaviors, it is a growing up process, not adolescence. Adolescence is a period that follows puberty, not one that occurs before or during.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

@Wolfydog, as I said to Tim, adolescence sets in after physical puberty. Nobody is saying that autonomous behaviors won't show up before then, just saying it is not the adolescent phase at such an early age.


----------



## tim_s_adams

MineAreWorkingline said:


> ... According to biologists and other scientists, adolescence can begin as early as 9 months or much later, usually with small dogs starting sooner and larger breeds later.
> 
> ...
> 
> Adolescence is a period that follows puberty, not one that occurs before or during.


I freely admit I have not done a lot of reading on this topic, just going by my experiences with my own and other people's puppies. So I googled it a bit...

Apparently Whole Dog Journal didn't get the memo either:

"The adolescent period typically begins around six months of age, and will be over when a dog reaches physical maturity around two to three years old.* The most pronounced behavioral issues will be noticed between six to 12 months old.*"

https://www.whole-dog-journal.com/i...ent-Dogs-6-Facts-You-Should-Know_21799-1.html

Of course I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be difficult to find alternate views on the internet, but maybe it's not as firmly "established" as it seems... >

Interesting topic though....


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

@Tim, even using that data, it supports the findings I use that puppies 3 to 6 months old are not acting out of adolescence. Just curious at what age your current dog came into heat as adolescence is the phase that occurs after puberty and lasts to mature adulthood. That in itself would more specifically answer when an individual female dog enters adolescence.


----------



## tim_s_adams

MineAreWorkingline said:


> @Tim, even using that data, it supports the findings I use that puppies 3 to 6 months old are not acting out of adolescence. Just curious at what age your current dog came into heat as adolescence is the phase that occurs after puberty and lasts to mature adulthood. That in itself would more specifically answer when an individual female dog enters adolescence.


Nyx's first heat was at 14 months, she's 1 week into her second heat today. Best teenager ever!


----------



## dogfaeries

Just some anecdotal stuff, but as a dog groomer for 40 years, I’ve seen nearly every puppy go through a stage around 8 months old. Suddenly, they become uncooperative. Their owners complain that their well mannered puppy acts like they know nothing. I tell them to just tough it out, it’ll get better, and it does.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

tim_s_adams said:


> Nyx's first heat was at 14 months, she's 1 week into her second heat today. Best teenager ever!


So she entered into adolescence at quite a bit over one year of age! Lucky you had plenty of time to lay a good foundation.


----------



## wolfy dog

MineAreWorkingline said:


> @Wolfydog, as I said to Tim, adolescence sets in after physical puberty. Nobody is saying that autonomous behaviors won't show up before then, just saying it is not the adolescent phase at such an early age.


In which age category does a dog that sired a litter at 6 month of age fit in? I knew of a St. Bernard who pulled that off. But what is comes down to, you need to adjust to the dog's behavior. There is no label on him that tells me if he is puppy or adolescent. Until then I work my butt off to get them the four year mark: full adulthood, yeah! Then there should be vaccine for puppy fever so we don't get sucked in it again.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

wolfy dog said:


> In which age category does a dog that sired a litter at 6 month of age fit in? I knew of a St. Bernard who pulled that off. But what is comes down to, you need to adjust to the dog's behavior. There is no label on him that tells me if he is puppy or adolescent. Until then I work my butt off to get them the four year mark: full adulthood, yeah! Then there should be vaccine for puppy fever so we don't get sucked in it again.


Adults are defined by more than sexual maturity, physical and mental maturity play key roles too. Adulthood is a package deal. So even if a six month old Saint Bernard were sexually mature, we know that physically he is far from it. That places him in the phase after puberty but pre adult, i.e., adolescence.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

dogfaeries said:


> Just some anecdotal stuff, but as a dog groomer for 40 years, I’ve seen nearly every puppy go through a stage around 8 months old. Suddenly, they become uncooperative. Their owners complain that their well mannered puppy acts like they know nothing. I tell them to just tough it out, it’ll get better, and it does.


Just out of curiosity, do you primarily groom smaller dogs or do you get a good mix of size in?


----------



## dogfaeries

Yes, small dogs. I meant to add that. And they typically mature much faster than larger dogs.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

dogfaeries said:


> Yes, small dogs. I meant to add that. And they typically mature much faster than larger dogs.


So it would be normal for adolescence to show up at 8 months in smaller dogs and to show up even later in larger breeds. Thanks for sharing your experience.


----------



## dogfaeries

Yes!


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Just out of curiosity, and I am well aware that people are not dogs and vice versa, but I did a quick search on stages on child development. What I found was that many of the behavioral traits of prepubescent humans at various stages matched right up with the behavior of prepubescent (before puberty) puppies that some were attributing to adolescence which occurs after puberty. 

Since we know that a 1 year old dog equates to a 13 year old human, let's just assign the arbitrary value that 1 month in a puppy's first year of life equates to 1 human year. Over 12 months, that assignment would equate a 1 year old puppy to a human age of 12 years, close enough to illustrate my point. 

Infant: birth to 12 months (1 month in puppies)

- When frightened, infants cry and look surprised and afraid. They cry to express anger, pain and hunger. It is their way of communicating. They are easily excited or upset. They turn to locate the source of sounds. Infants can focus on and follow moving objects with their eyes. *They explore things with their mouths.* *They put anything they can hold into their mouths.* They begin to fear being left by their parents. 

Toddler: 1 and 2 years (2 months in puppies)

- One major task for the toddler* is to learn to be independent.* The toddler stage is characterized by much growth and change, mood swings and some negativity. This is why* they are often frustrated and "misbehave." *Some adults call the toddler stage "the terrible twos." Toddlers bursting with energy and ideas need to explore their environment. Toddlers sometimes get frustrated because they do not have the language skills to express themselves. Temper tantrums are common. They want to do things independently. They cannot remember rules. Their attention span is short. They are curious. They use "NO" frequently. They become frustrated easily. They still need security. They still have a very limited attention span. 

Preschoolers: 3 and 4 years (3 - 4 months in puppies)

- Preschool children want to touch, taste, smell, hear, and test things for themselves. They are eager to learn. They learn by experiencing and by doing. They are more independent than toddlers. *You can expect the preschool child to test you over and over again.* Preschoolers need clear and simple rules so that they know the boundaries of acceptable behavior. They need a variety of activities. They need indoor and outdoor space. They need a balance between active and quiet play. *They tend to brag and be bossy.* *They can be aggressive *but want friends and enjoy being with other children. They appreciate praise for their achievements. They need opportunities to feel more freedom and independence. They ask lots of questions, including "how" and "why" questions. They are very talkative. Their language includes silly words and profanity. 

School Age: 5 years until the onset of adolescence (5 months until the onset of adolescence)

- With school-age children, it is important to set limits and let children know what is expected of them. Be patient and kind. Provide clear and consistent discipline. *They show their ability to be independent by being disobedient, using back-talk and being rebellious. *They are easily motivated and eager to try new things. They usually do best when the work is done in small pieces. They need guidance from adults to stay at a task to achieve their best.

And then puberty sets in followed by adolescence. Now maybe it is just me, but I have seen many of these prepubescent behaviors in my own puppies. 
@Tim, are the bolded above some of the behaviors you were attributing to post puberty adolescence?


----------



## tim_s_adams

MineAreWorkingline said:


> ...
> 
> Infant: birth to 12 months (1 month in puppies)
> 
> - *They explore things with their mouths.* *They put anything they can hold into their mouths.*


Sounds accurate, though with puppies this mouth exploration continues much much longer!




MineAreWorkingline said:


> Toddler: 1 and 2 years (2 months in puppies)
> 
> - One major task for the toddler* is to learn to be independent.* ... This is why* they are often frustrated and "misbehave." *


I haven't seen this with any puppy I've ever been around of any breed...but that could be a perspective thing. In my view 2 month old puppies are not capable of misbehaving, since you cannot have taught them what "proper behavior" consists of yet! Of course, in raising my kids I never saw any misbehavior at that age either, and I've always wondered about the people that actually believe in that "terrible two's" myth! In my mind, kids and puppies are never cuter or more fun and full of life!




MineAreWorkingline said:


> Preschoolers: 3 and 4 years (3 - 4 months in puppies)
> 
> - *You can expect the preschool child to test you over and over again.* ... *They tend to brag and be bossy.* *They can be aggressive *but want friends and enjoy being with other children.


With children I've seen these things, but not with puppies at this age.



MineAreWorkingline said:


> School Age: 5 years until the onset of adolescence (5 months until the onset of adolescence)
> 
> - ... *They show their ability to be independent by being disobedient, using back-talk and being rebellious. *


This is exactly what I stated previously as adolescent behavior, yes! Wilful disobedience, reactivity toward dogs and/or people, not minding commands that were previously taught, biting or attempting to bite, barking uncontrollably, etc., are all behaviors that are referred to in numerous threads on this forum as adolescent behaviors. 

Examples:

"He is 2 years old...He tried to bite a friend of my daughter's a couple of weeks ago, and just today my adult sons are here visiting, and I made sure to try to introduce them and had Klause by his collar. He was being okay, and out of the clear blue he tried to bite my son."
RESPONSE: "Sounds like he's a largely untrained adolescent male who may be pushing the boundaries ..."

"I have a 1 and a half year old German Shepherd. ... But the past 6 months he keeps attacking my in-laws and I don't know what to do. He lunged at my mother-in-law gouged arm out and lunged at my father-in-law and gouged his hand pretty good after they tried to correct him for him biting the carpet. I don't know what to do I don't want to give him up but I don't want to see him injure anybody."
RESPONSE: "He lacks respect and is becoming an adolescent and thinking for himself..."

"I have a 9 month old GSD who won’t listen one bit unless I have a treat in my hand and even then he’s not all there. He has a bad habit of mouthing and jumping, mouthing feels like a bite as he has sharp teeth. "

RESPONSE: "He just entered adolescence and he's getting really naughty and defiant."

"My 9 month old male german shepherd, Mako, has a pretty major problem with human strangers. We initially didn't know what to tell others to avoid when meeting him, so we sought help from our local Petsmart trainers. They told us about eye contact, though they said in their testing him with it he showed no issue, as well as body position (e.g. facing him directly, leaning forward quickly, etc.)."
RESPONSE: "He is just a bratty adolescent who knows what he can get away with and with whom."

"Male almost 6 months old puppy has a nasty habit of biting me if he doesn't get the attention, treats or toys he thinks he deserves. "
RESPONSE: "I'm no trainer or expert, but I think it sounds like normal adolescent behavior."





MineAreWorkingline said:


> And then puberty sets in followed by adolescence. Now maybe it is just me, but I have seen many of these prepubescent behaviors in my own puppies.
> 
> @Tim, are the bolded above some of the behaviors you were attributing to post puberty adolescence?


So, if adolescence is, physiologically speaking, a post puberty period, then I agree that my dog could not have been in adolescence at 5-7 months. BUT, it was the only period in her life to date that she's exhibited the behaviors that are "commonly" referred to as being adolescent. And there have been no defiance or other problem behavior issues since. That being said, perhaps I, and others, have been mislabeling that period as adolescence, when more correctly it should be referred to as prepubescent. 

Either way though, IMHO dogs 1 yr and over that are having behavioral issues, are having them more due to a lack of training, than to anything related to adolescence.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

@Tim, all but one of the examples you cited were for pups 9 months of age on up, so yes, adolescence could very well be part of the problem, six months, not so much.


----------



## wolfy dog

Today's progress update: both dogs on a down stay, 4 feet from each other, with a ball lying in front of them (released on command). I throw the ball in two different directions, waited until the balls stopped rolling, told them "Find It!" and both went and got their own ball and returned. Then I gave them "Yours!" for them to keep it and play together, which they did. I am waiting with the dual retrieve and sit in front of me until Griffin's is more solid.


----------

