# Our new GSD pups!



## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Sorry in advance for lengthy post. We brought our little boys home 9 days ago and have been enjoying settling into our new life with these sweet little land sharks. Meet Trapper and Hawkeye (male litter mates). To all of you who tried so hard to discourage us from getting litter mates……….I get it!!! Holy Toledo is this a monumental challenge! My husband and I have devoted 24/7 to these puppies since the moment we brought them home. We haven't had a normal night's sleep and don't anticipate one for a while yet. But the puppies seem to be doing well so far. They are crate trained and they know a few basic commands (Hawkeye is more mature than Trapper for some reason and has made slight better progress). Hawekeye's ears are up, Trappers are not. They have met about 50 people this week. They spend time during the day with my husband in his "man cave/workshop" so are exposed to lots of power tool noises. They have taken a few, short (slow) 4-wheeler rides and have been in the pool a couple of times (in my arms for a couple of minutes). 
They are unflappable at this point. Currently are sound asleep in their kennels during a house-shaking thunderstorm….they just don't seem to care. 
We realize having litter mates may not work out but we remain optimistic. If they show signs of compromise related to living as litter mates we will consider doing what is best for them, even if it means re-homing one (can't imagine having to make that decision as we are madly in love with both of course). However, will do what's best for them. 
I have tons of questions but will start with one…….these boys play/wrestle all the time when together (and they seek each other out to play). Hawkeye is 10 pounds and Trapper is only 8 pounds. Hawkeye invariable is too rough with Trapper (bites an ear) or bites a leg, etc. Is this normal and when/how should we separate them? Will post pictures soon.


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## My2shepherds (Jun 10, 2014)

I do not have littermates but my girls are 6 weeks apart in age... Athena is now almost 7 mos. and Eden is almost 5.5 mos... It will be tiring at times but it does get easier I promise.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Thank you My2Shepherds for the words of encouragement. How did you manage when they were younger? How do you manage potty training during thunder/lightening/rain storms?


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## My2shepherds (Jun 10, 2014)

Jake and Elwood said:


> Thank you My2Shepherds for the words of encouragement. How did you manage when they were younger? How do you manage potty training during thunder/lightening/rain storms?


I was advised (from this forum) to train them seperately since there is too much distraction together while they are so young. This really does work out better than trying to do anything serious with them together. I "allowed" their WWE time but only after training/exercise periods when they were a little less energetic and interupted them as soon as it got too rough. I was told to watch their ears during playtime together as they can damage them easily with puppy bites. In all honestly it was tiring since everything was double duty but if you buckle down and do it now you will be glad for it later when they are too big to handle if they get out of control. 

As far as potty training we went out no matter what (unless it was too risky with lightening) if you act like it is nothing they will pick up on that and not care either. One thing though you may want to crate one to take the other out unless you have another set of hands helping you walk them. This will help to teach them that potty time is potty time not play.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

I am quickly learning that in order to spend quality time (training, pee/poo, etc) they must be separated. Overall, they seem to be doing well when we do separate them. However, they are extremely attached to each other and, when only one is crated, he cries (a little) until he sees his littermate. 1) Why did you choose to get two so close in age, and 2) If you could do anything different, what would it be?

Thanks for your support here. They are awesome (and silly, and funny, etc.) but exhausting.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

> However, they are extremely attached to each other


you need to try to get them past this while they are young
i have seen pairs of dogs so bonded they are emotionally crippled when not with their 'friend' or sibling
very sad as it is like a neurosis


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

That's what I was thinking Diesel. Is there anything else I should do in addition to increasing the amount of time they are separated at a time and increasing the number of times each day?


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

i really dont know as i have only seen the after effects 
i mean some people would rather the dogs entertained themselves
if that is not you then yes do everything with them apart 
take them places singly etc
just separating them may not be enough
every time they are together the bond will just get stronger 

the key is that they dont rely on each other to live and breathe
when it comes to that and they _cannot_ be apart that is when it is going to be a life long crippling problem


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Will separate them as much as possible. 
I'm trying to post pics but not sure how. Can anyone direct me to some instructions for uploading photos (from computer) to this forum?
Thanks in advance.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

They need to be separate more than thy are together. Together only for very short, supervised, structured times. What you're seeing is the beginnings of what you were warned about (littermate syndrome) and it will be an utter nightmare if you don't seriously nip it in the bud. Crate and rotate, train separately, play separately, feed separately. 


As for photos- an external hosting site like photobucket is the way to go! They'll automatically re-size everything you upload, which is awesome  Once you upload a picture there, if you click on the "direct" hyperlink, your computer will copy it. Then, in a thread here, click the little picture icon (near where link, break link, quote, etc are), then just paste the link and it'll insert it for you. Can't wait to see pics!

Breathe. Your best chances of success are keeping them apart as much as possible. Good luck and take it one day at a time.


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

I am glad you are up-dating us. 

I have no advice, but having a GSD is like having a human baby, except you can crate the puppy.

My boy turns 7 months on Sept. 3rd. Soooo much easier now. My whole life has revolved around my pup. I have put so much time, money, effort into this guy and now i am seeing the results. He is an amazing dog.

Your situation is like having twins!! Best of luck to you


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I raise littermates all the time. I take them to training classes separately, otherwise they are together. I have never experienced littermate syndrome. And, I have homed them as old as a 12-15 months old, and they have had no trouble adjusting to being without their littermates. And I have separated them here as old as 15 months old, with no troubles. 

But that could be genetics. Who knows. Enough people have trouble trying to raise pairs of pups that the rule of thumb is to advise against it. 

Two things worry me about your post: First, that you have had these puppies 9 days and already seem overwhelmed. At this point, they should be making less trouble for you, as they are together and should not be keeping you up at night, should feel less disquieted from the change in ownership -- no dam and litter that most pups go through. Potty training two can be fun, as you have to grab both first thing to get them out, other than that, it really should be easier at this point and not harder to have two.

Secondly, is the attitude going into this that if it doesn't work out, we'll just rehome one of them. This is why we discourage people from doing it in the first place. Usually the problems raising two are not seen initially, but when the pups are adolescents, or young adults, or even when they become elderly. Each stage seems to have its own set of issues with having two close in age. And babies like you have are cute and sweet and so easy to conform to a new home, there's a reason puppies go home between 7 and 12 weeks normally. 

By the time you determine that it really wasn't such a good idea, lets get rid of one of them, well they may already have some less than desirable habits, are no longer at that point where you can easily nip it in the bud, and whoever ends up with the discarded pup, will have to deal with that. 

Sometimes, what is best for the individual dog is to be rehomed. But we should NEVER go into getting a puppy with the idea that if it doesn't work out, we'll just find it a home. Breeders that wash a puppy from their program often keep them. And if someone comes along that wants a dog and can convince you that they can give the dog more than you can, well, a good breeder may go ahead and sell them an older pup or adult. But in general, when we send puppies home, we want people to be committed to raising, training, and enjoying the pup for its lifetime. So going into this with your eyes wide open to the possible issues, the answer for you is, "well if it doesn't work out, we will rehome one of them." 

And this is why most good breeders will not place littermates, or pups close in age in the same home. I would strongly suggest sending one of the pups back at this point, but my guess is your breeder probably isn't the cream of the crop, so getting their puppy back from you will probably only benefit them -- they are unlikely to give you money back for it. So they can sell it twice. 

I guess my only question is, if this doesn't work out for you, what is your plan for the pup you no longer want to deal with?


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Selzer,

I understand and appreciate your concerns. However, I think the main reason for my anxiety is my fear of "not doing this right". I know the first couple of months are critical and just don't want our pups to be at a disadvantage because they are together. My husband took a month off from work to be with them and he is way more laid back in his approach. He wanted their first week at home to be all about bonding…..crating optional….which meant we set our alarm every 2 hrs at night for pee/poo breaks. We spent almost the entire week in his man cave (cement floor) while we bonded with our pups. We even slept in the man cave on a futon. On day #7 we crated them at night in the man-cave and they did great! On day #8 we moved them inside our house at night and 
are crating them at night without any trouble. Last night they slept 6 hrs. Yah! They are now 8 weeks and 1 day old so still babies but growing quickly. 
We lost our last dog to cancer 7 years ago at age 12. He was a Shepherd/lab mix and we didn't stress at all over his training. We just did it and he turned out great. This is just the first time we've used a breeder. I'm anxious to send pics and will keep trying. No luck so far. I've uploaded to photobucket but now have to figure out the key to post them here. Will keep trying.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg168/apache_33_2007/DSC_6089_zpsacc5a297.jpg

Trapper (ears not up yet)


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

They are young, VERY young. Be careful how much you try to perfect in baby puppies this age. You can over do it. Let them play, and do tiny training sessions, interspersed throughout the day. Make it all a game. 

Again, I have littermates, and I don't get the same problems. I leave mine together, and I let mine be puppies way longer than a lot of people do. When I do start training them, and I mean, once a week at training classes, I do that separately. 

But if I want to walk dogs together, then I socialize and train separately and I do it together.

The thing is, it sounds like you have done a TON of socialization and a lot of training already, and these babies should be coming home now, not 9-10 days ago. There is a thread on socialization mistakes, how sometimes less is better. The way I look at it, up to 16 weeks, no socialization is better than bad socialization. And bad socialization can be as simple as too much on any given day or outing, or it can be a really bad reaction. 

Puppies are fun and exciting, but if I brought a pup home before eight weeks, that first week or so, it would be staying home, and I wouldn't bother introducing the pup to anything outside the immediate family (that lives there) and the natural rhythms of your household. Relax, and just let it happen.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg168/apache_33_2007/DSC_6013_zps0c40d88f.jpg


http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg168/apache_33_2007/DSC_6105_zpsd762f4fe.jpg

Hawkeye has purple collar (ears up)
Trapper (yellow collar (ears not yet up)


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Selzer,
I like (and share) your approach to litter mates. We are keeping the puppies home (except for vet appts. We have had neighbors over for short visits and a few friends….also for short visits. So even though our puppies have been exposed to lots of people, they spend the majority of their day "free style playing" in the back yard with just my husband and me. And they play for about 20 minutes and then sleep for a while…then back up playing again. I worry we don't have ENOUGH of a routine at this point. We're letting them pretty much dictate what they want to do (and that worries me a little). We practice VERY short training sessions (sit, down, stay, come)…..maybe 5 or 6 commands in a 3 minute session, twice a day….very little. Our instincts tell us to keep it all happy and low key at this point. We are keeping it all positive. Again, I'm nervous because I don't want to wreck these precious little pups. Thanks for your insight and helpful suggestions. It's greatly appreciated.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Moriah said:


> I am glad you are up-dating us.
> 
> I have no advice, but having a GSD is like having a human baby, except you can crate the puppy.
> 
> ...



Thanks Moriah! It does feel like having twins (lots of twins in our family and I've watched relatives with human twins). So much fun but lots of work. I laugh all the time. It's amazing how busy they are and to realize I don't have enough hands. I have a hard time crating them except at night and for feedings…I have to get better at giving them more crate time (they always have the option of going into their crate during the day if they choose…I just don't like to require it (except at night).


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

LoveEcho said:


> They need to be separate more than thy are together. Together only for very short, supervised, structured times. What you're seeing is the beginnings of what you were warned about (littermate syndrome) and it will be an utter nightmare if you don't seriously nip it in the bud. Crate and rotate, train separately, play separately, feed separately.
> 
> 
> As for photos- an external hosting site like photobucket is the way to go! They'll automatically re-size everything you upload, which is awesome  Once you upload a picture there, if you click on the "direct" hyperlink, your computer will copy it. Then, in a thread here, click the little picture icon (near where link, break link, quote, etc are), then just paste the link and it'll insert it for you. Can't wait to see pics!
> ...


Thanks for the information re uploading pics. That helped. At 8 weeks these pups could easily still be with their entire litter. Is it ok for them to spend a lot of time together for the next couple of weeks before we focus on separating them? They do eat separately, walk separately (too young for much walking), and train separately. Classes will be separate. However, they will probably still spend a fair amount of time together each day simply because we live in a rural area and we hang out together at home.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Trapper likes to sleep in the plants/flowers….have to watch him like a hawk so he doesn't eat anything he shouldn't. 

http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg168/apache_33_2007/DSC_6158_zpsf5ed69e8.jpg


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg168/apache_33_2007/DSC_6089_zpsacc5a297.jpg


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

My2shepherds said:


> I do not have littermates but my girls are 6 weeks apart in age... Athena is now almost 7 mos. and Eden is almost 5.5 mos... It will be tiring at times but it does get easier I promise.



Athena and Eden are beautiful!!!!!!


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

*Finally have pics*

Finally have a few pics! Trapper - yellow collar and Hawkeye - purple collar



Jake and Elwood said:


> http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg168/apache_33_2007/DSC_6089_zpsacc5a297.jpg


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

*more pics*

Meet Trapper (aka little Tank)



Jake and Elwood said:


> http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg168/apache_33_2007/DSC_6089_zpsacc5a297.jpg


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

*Sleeping Trapper*

Trapper sleeping with the plants


http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg168/apache_33_2007/DSC_6158_zpsf5ed69e8.jpg[/QUOTE]


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

*Trapper and Hawkeye*

Sorry for duplicate pics….just learning how to upload. 

http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg168/apache_33_2007/DSC_6013_zps0c40d88f.jpg


http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg168/apache_33_2007/DSC_6105_zpsd762f4fe.jpg

Hawkeye has purple collar (ears up)
Trapper (yellow collar (ears not yet up)[/QUOTE]


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## lauren43 (Jun 14, 2014)

They are super cute!

When you want to embed photos you want the IMG code. What you are current using is the direct link, which is fine, but the IMG code will put the pics right in the thread.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)




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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

lauren43 said:


> They are super cute!
> 
> When you want to embed photos you want the IMG code. What you are current using is the direct link, which is fine, but the IMG code will put the pics right in the thread.


Thanks Lauren! Got it (finally).


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## readaboutdogs (Jul 8, 2001)

Very cute! The pic of them playing with the water bottle looks just like one I have of Cody and Clipper playing with a stuffed toy! Cody and Clipper were litter mates, but I didn't have them as puppies together. Clipper was my daughters pup from the litter And Cody was mine! She brought him over a lot, nearly every day!! She moved out of state when Clipper was a little over a year old and that's when Clipper came to live with me and his brother!!! He had been over so much he fit right in, no problems! They truly loved each other, best buddies!!! On the going out to potty, sure, theyed play around some, but usually if one went potty, the other would stop and go too!!! Cody hated going out in the rain, but Clipper would go ahead and go, so then Cody would to! So in some things they encourage each other you might say!!! While they are young like this, it's been said here before, we always handled their feet, toes, all parts of body to get them used to being handled in any way!!! It helped with brushing and vet visits!!! They learned to take turns in playing and taking treats! I'd kick a scoccer ball or throw a toy for one, and there other would wait for his turn!! We are just a regular pet home, we didn't do any type of sport. They made a big impact on my life. So relax and enjoy them!!! It's some work, but any time you add to the family, it's just part of it!!!


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

readaboutdogs said:


> Very cute! The pic of them playing with the water bottle looks just like one I have of Cody and Clipper playing with a stuffed toy! Cody and Clipper were litter mates, but I didn't have them as puppies together. Clipper was my daughters pup from the litter And Cody was mine! She brought him over a lot, nearly every day!! She moved out of state when Clipper was a little over a year old and that's when Clipper came to live with me and his brother!!! He had been over so much he fit right in, no problems! They truly loved each other, best buddies!!! On the going out to potty, sure, theyed play around some, but usually if one went potty, the other would stop and go too!!! Cody hated going out in the rain, but Clipper would go ahead and go, so then Cody would to! So in some things they encourage each other you might say!!! While they are young like this, it's been said here before, we always handled their feet, toes, all parts of body to get them used to being handled in any way!!! It helped with brushing and vet visits!!! They learned to take turns in playing and taking treats! I'd kick a scoccer ball or throw a toy for one, and there other would wait for his turn!! We are just a regular pet home, we didn't do any type of sport. They made a big impact on my life. So relax and enjoy them!!! It's some work, but any time you add to the family, it's just part of it!!!


Thank you! Stories like yours give me hope that we haven't made a mistake by having two. We are enjoying them soooooo much even though they are keeping us busy 24/7 right now. I think I will just relax and not worry so much....just make sure we're doing the best we can do and giving them separate and together time...and mostly just loving them to pieces!

Do Cody and Clipper ever fight or have problems being separated? Not sure when I will feel comfortable leaving them alone (without being crated). I suspect it will be 6 months or more...thoughts?


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

> I have never experienced littermate syndrome


that is like saying two bitches can live together because you have not personally dealt with same sex aggression
sure you may get lucky a time or even two or three but when things go south they go south in a big and ugly way

while i have not personally raised littermates together i have seen them with friends who have them and even at a shelter where they were so broken without each other that one would die quite literally if taken from each other 
in that scenario someone adopted the brother and not the sister and she developed such severe anxiety she had to finally be put to sleep as nobody wanted a dog that anxious
i do not know how the brother did but i did not hear of the people returning him :shrug:


btw i did not know there was a term for this until just now but i looked it up and there is plenty of advice here on google on the situation!
https://www.google.com/webhp?source...6&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=littermate syndrome


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## readaboutdogs (Jul 8, 2001)

Cody and Clipper are at the bridge now. Cody was almost 12 and Clipper was a month away from being 12 and a half. Ostesarcoma. Very seldom they'd get in a little tiff!! It was always very short lived, never a blown out fight!! Like Cody would go by and mouthe Clipper, and I guess Clipper wouldn't be in the mood and bite back!! Cody would have a look like "why did you do that!!" But was easily broke up with a "hey!!", then they'd be fine!! I had an outdoor kennel that I that I used for a while till they were trusted to stay inside, except in bad weather of course!! My daughter had crated Clipper, I did not crate Cody, so had to kennel outside while I was at work to make sure Clipper was ready to be free in the house, they were both out there till ready!!! They had full run of the house in the evenings and at nite then. They probably were ready to be left inside sooner, but I'd say they were closer to 2 years since I had to get Clipper more housebroke!!! After that they were free reign in the house! They did kinda throw a fit if I took one out and not the other, but didn't destroy the house or anything like that!!! They'd just be happy to see each other!!! As far as when I decided they were ready to stay in while I was at work, if the weather was bad, I left them inside, then one time when the weather was bad, I started just leaving them in and they were fine!!! Shepherds are so smart, probably like I said, they are ready before we think they are!!!


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## readaboutdogs (Jul 8, 2001)

I was going to add, it was very hard on old Snip(Clipper!) when Cody went on to the bridge first. It just took a lot out of him, he missed his brother. Clipper developed that lump on his ribs a few months after Cody passed. That was the hardest part of having the two of them, losing them both within 9 months of each other. But they are together again, and I surely would not wanted to miss the gift of having them!!!


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

it depends i think on the owner and how involved they want to be in their dogs lives
if you want your dog to bond to you and not siblings then keep them separated the majority of the time
do not let them become so dependent on each other neither is a good pet

this article explains why they get so bonded it can cripple them

Raising Siblings

*Dogs MUST be allowed to develop as individuals. At seven weeks of age, they are ready to look to the outside world for bonding and individuality. They are ready to leave the pack and move on. Pups at seven weeks bond easily to the human UNLESS they do not leave their litter. Maintaining siblings from the same litter interferes with this transfer. *

*They can play together, but I cannot stress the importance of these separation procedures enough. Keeping the siblings together at all times will create two parts of a whole, not two individuals.  9 out of 10 cases that I see show some signs of littermate syndrome. Some of the more severe cases are heartbreaking.*


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

readaboutdogs said:


> I was going to add, it was very hard on old Snip(Clipper!) when Cody went on to the bridge first. It just took a lot out of him, he missed his brother.


I have to agree with this. When we lost Levi early last year, it was heartbreaking to watch Leyna - it made it that much worse for us to see her. She went from a young 8 to a much older 8. She sort of recovered when we added Paisley, but it was never the same.

I will also add to another post - we didn't trust Leyna and Levi out of the crate when we were gone until they were 3 years old! At 6 months, they were still getting into things. I believe around then, they were out in our bedroom (door closed) at night. But anything beyond a few minutes without us around - they got into trouble. They were/are pretty low drive dogs and I think that made the whole littermate thing a lot easier for us (plus it was a male/female which I think makes things a bit easier as well). I could never imagine two of my Paisleys at the same time.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

There needs to be no "hanging out" for a while...and this is more important now than later. It's easier to build a solid foundation than to go back and fill in holes, and the time for that is now. Crate and rotate, all the time. They need to be independent of each other. 

I wouldn't leave them out alone unsupervised until they're both mature adults. You're asking for trouble doing it at six months.... aside from the fact that they're likely to be destructive together, two sexually maturing males can get ugly, fast. Honestly, at six months I would still be heavily limiting interaction.


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## My2shepherds (Jun 10, 2014)

Jake and Elwood said:


> I am quickly learning that in order to spend quality time (training, pee/poo, etc) they must be separated. Overall, they seem to be doing well when we do separate them. However, they are extremely attached to each other and, when only one is crated, he cries (a little) until he sees his littermate. 1) Why did you choose to get two so close in age, and 2) If you could do anything different, what would it be?
> 
> Thanks for your support here. They are awesome (and silly, and funny, etc.) but exhausting.


I guess in all honesty I just wanted two... my plan had been to get littermate females but due to one of the girls from the litter not making it I ended up getting Athena from another breeder however my girls are still related. Athena's father is Eden's grandfather... kind of crazy how it all worked out.. lol.

If I could do anything different? I would have kept them apart at a much earlier age... by the time I finally caught on to separating them more they had developed some bad habits of ignoring me and wanting to wrestle each other... Of course I was able to reverse this with time but it would have been much easier to have kept it from ever being an issue. It led to a lot of frustration on my part in the begining and a bit of whining and crying till they got the gist of it. One other thing was bringing one outside to the kennel or puppy fence while training the other.. wish I had done that sooner too. It taught one patience and the other to be able to follow commands with distractions.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

LoveEcho said:


> There needs to be no "hanging out" for a while...and this is more important now than later. It's easier to build a solid foundation than to go back and fill in holes, and the time for that is now. Crate and rotate, all the time. They need to be independent of each other.
> 
> I wouldn't leave them out alone unsupervised until they're both mature adults. You're asking for trouble doing it at six months.... aside from the fact that they're likely to be destructive together, two sexually maturing males can get ugly, fast. Honestly, at six months I would still be heavily limiting interaction.


Thanks for the advice. I'm grateful for all the advice here. Obviously there are several different opinions but a consistent theme is the need for separation early in their lives. I can already see the problem emerging (at 8 1/2 weeks). They are ultra focused on each other. When my husband takes one and I take the other (for purpose of separation) they are fine. But when they are both crated (side by side crates) and I take one out, the other displays separation behavior. If I had only one pup and left him crated and alone in a room, would he/she do the same? or would the singleton pup be fine alone in his crate without his human in the same room? Not sure how much of this is "normal puppy behavior" vs "separation anxiety" from humans or "separation anxiety" from littermate. Anyone have specific suggestions? Should we move their crates to different parts of the house so they aren't crated in the same room? 
Should we let them cry when they are alone? We haven't seen a huge problem but that's probably because we are with them almost constantly. The only reason I'm on the computer now is they've just eaten lunch and are sleeping blissfully in their crates. Thanks again to all constructive criticism/advice from members of this forum.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Thanks! Working on increasing separation time. How did you reverse the problem once you realized it was an issue?


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

How about boarding one for a week and rotate a few times a year?


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

wolfy dog said:


> How about boarding one for a week and rotate a few times a year?


I would worry about the consequences to the boarded puppy. That seems like a good idea for the puppy who isn't boarded but can't be good for the boarded little guy…..can it?
I think a better option is to separate them as much as possible within our home/property. They are only crated at night (~ 10 pm to ~ 6am) and for about 1/2 - 1 hr for each of their three daily feedings. All other times they are supervised, mostly outside.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Or at a friend. Of course you only choose a boarding facility you trust 110%. My thought was that they are really separated from each other than. It was just an idea that I threw out there.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Think we'll take one of them to the Woof Room once a week (cool place for puppy/dog supervised play in St. Paul) and will spend that time with the other…and rotate that plan weekly. It's not the whole solution but hopeful will play a part in helping to increase their independence.


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## Loneforce (Feb 12, 2012)

I love the names! :thumbup: I am a MASH fan myself. Handsome little pups you got there!


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Thanks! They are rockin' our world in a wonderful way! And Hawkeye is an appropriate name for his personality….trouble and laser focused and smart!!!!!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Adopting Littermates… (Don’t)

Interesting article you might want to read thru. There is a link to another article that I haven't read


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## My2shepherds (Jun 10, 2014)

Jake and Elwood said:


> Thanks! Working on increasing separation time. How did you reverse the problem once you realized it was an issue?


Once they realized everything was on my terms it just went away. They both were following my commands when they were alone with me really well before I started increasing their "together" time. We still train separately but we are all together most of the time now since they have learned to not pay so much attention to each other because all the good stuff comes from me..  We can walk together now (casual walking of course) without any issues at all... lol took them a little while to learn they both could not heel at the same time on the same side.. lol It was quite humorous watching them try though.. :laugh:


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Jake and Elwood said:


> Think we'll take one of them to the Woof Room once a week (cool place for puppy/dog supervised play in St. Paul) and will spend that time with the other…and rotate that plan weekly. It's not the whole solution but hopeful will play a part in helping to increase their independence.


I would definitely try to get them away from each other more than one day a week. 

There's nothing wrong with crating the dogs more during the day to rotate them, or taking on a trip to the store/park/training for bonding/engagement work while the other stays home in a crate or the backyard. Even crating them in the car and taking one out at a time in new locations would be awesome.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

DJEtzel said:


> I would definitely try to get them away from each other more than one day a week.
> 
> There's nothing wrong with crating the dogs more during the day to rotate them, or taking on a trip to the store/park/training for bonding/engagement work while the other stays home in a crate or the backyard. Even crating them in the car and taking one out at a time in new locations would be awesome.


I know you're right and I need to increase their separation time immediately. They are 8 1/2 weeks old now (many pups wouldn't have been separated from litter at this point…right)? I think the one I leave behind would be fine but I am having a hard time having confidence that nothing bad will happen to him while I'm gone with the other. Will I cause long-term fear/anxiety If I take one away and the crated pup cries for two hours ...or is it all just part of training pups? Right now we have a puppy-proof side of our garage with a doggie door to a 16 X 24 ft outside dog run. Outside of the dog run is our fenced back yard. I spend the majority of my day in the garage. I sit on the floor and play with them, brush them, etc. or sit at a table with my laptop working on work-related stuff. Puppies have their beds, toys,etc. and enjoy just being close to each other and to me. I'm noticing that they are getting better about going outside on their own and leaving their littermate inside. I honestly feel I'm neglecting them if I leave them at all…..


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

My2shepherds said:


> Once they realized everything was on my terms it just went away. They both were following my commands when they were alone with me really well before I started increasing their "together" time. We still train separately but we are all together most of the time now since they have learned to not pay so much attention to each other because all the good stuff comes from me..  We can walk together now (casual walking of course) without any issues at all... lol took them a little while to learn they both could not heel at the same time on the same side.. lol It was quite humorous watching them try though.. :laugh:


Thanks! I find your posts helpful as I figure this out.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Jake and Elwood said:


> I know you're right and I need to increase their separation time immediately. They are 8 1/2 weeks old now (many pups wouldn't have been separated from litter at this point…right)? I think the one I leave behind would be fine but I am having a hard time having confidence that nothing bad will happen to him while I'm gone with the other. Will I cause long-term fear/anxiety If I take one away and the crated pup cries for two hours ...or is it all just part of training pups? Right now we have a puppy-proof side of our garage with a doggie door to a 16 X 24 ft outside dog run. Outside of the dog run is our fenced back yard. I spend the majority of my day in the garage. I sit on the floor and play with them, brush them, etc. or sit at a table with my laptop working on work-related stuff. Puppies have their beds, toys,etc. and enjoy just being close to each other and to me. I'm noticing that they are getting better about going outside on their own and leaving their littermate inside. I honestly feel I'm neglecting them if I leave them at all…..


Most pups are separated from their litters at 8 weeks. The vast majority. 

Why would you think something bad would happen to the one left behind? Puppies are ok by themselves for a few hours, if appropriately contained. Crate the one left behind. They need to learn to be independent. If you don't do this now, you're going to foster such an attachment that down the road something bad WILL happen if you separate them. Separating them now is not going to cause anxiety, it's going to prevent it. 

All puppies cry in their crates initially. They need to learn to be alone... and this includes being separate from you. Leaving them alone is not neglect.... most of us work and raise puppies successfully.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

I'm more of a mother hen and worry about my dogs as well, but it is beneficial to do separate things. Jazzy gets groomed every 6 weeks and Delgado stays home while I'm at her appointment for a few hours, I feel a little bad but he's learned it's ok to be alone for a bit. Delgado goes on walks or outings where we focus on obedience and Jazzy stays home so I can focus on Delgado alone, again she's content lying on the couch chilling until we get back. 

They won't be able to be around each other for every moment of their lives, there will be times that they need to be separated so getting them used to it now is actually kinder rather than cruel. Take one for a walk and leave one behind, then switch. Take one out for a play session and then switch as well. The sooner they realize it's ok the better and the easier it will be to train them when they're not panicking or focused so heavily on where the other is.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Jake and Elwood, I have had siblings in my class and they were not able to work with their owners because all they wanted was to get back with each other; pulling, whining, not attention for their owners, ignoring treats etc. It was a disaster.
They were only 6 months old and had not been separated since the adoption.
When the next set of sibling registered I put them in two different classes to get them away from each other. Fortunately, it worked.
A crying puppy in its crate is an awful thing to have to listen to but in the end you will be glad you stuck it out. Can you separate them at night as well? That gives them a long time away from each other. Or at least at both sides of the bed.
I worked with a couple who had adopted 2 Aussie siblings and followed up all the advice given here on this forum and the dogs turned out great, are 4 years old now, like other doggie room mates without the sibling-syndrom.
For my own dogs, I practice the same techniques when I get a new pup while the other is already grown.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

Let me start this post my stating….Tomorrow is the day I will crate one and take the other for a little trip for a new harness (will take about an hour). Thanks to all of you for your patience and persistence. I know your advice is correct and I realize most (if not all) of you have tons of experience and have raised many healthy, well-adjusted GSD's. That's my goal too. Following is a brief "day in the life" of Trapper and Hawkeye. Please offer suggestions.

They are crated in side-by-side wire kennels for the night (~ 10 pm until ~ 6 am). I sleep on the sofa beside them so I will hear them. They usually wake me about 1:00, 4:00, and then around 6 am. Each time they both are awake. I leash one, pick him up and take him out to his "pee/poo" spot. They are both usually quick to do their business. Then I pick them up and bring them in and repeat the process with the second puppy. They like a little drink of water after their 4 am outing. At ~ 6 am they are done sleeping and ready to play. After they've gone out to pee/poo, we come in and play on the floor in the living room for about 15 minutes. Then I feed them (in their kennels). After that they usually stay in their kennels for a nap for about 1/2 hr…then out to pee/poo and play. This is their free play time (supervised) in the back yard where they pick up sticks, smell plants/flowers, pick flowers, and play fight (a lot) with each other). After play time we go into "their space" which consists of a one-bay heated side of the garage with a dog door to an outdoor dog run. They spend the next couple of hours in there going in an out, taking naps, playing with their chew toys, balls, squeak toys, etc. They eat lunch at noon (in plastic crates located in "their space"). Today we watched Jeremiah Johnson on a little TV on the floor (they seemed to enjoy that) while laying on their karunda beds. They are good about going out to their dog run to pee/poo from "their space". At ~ 5 pm we go back into the basement for dinner in their wire crates. After dinner it's outside free play for a little while and then back to "their space" for supervised play/naps. At about 8 pm (after they pee/poo)we go to the basement for play time on the floor with their toys and me and my husband. When they get tired (~ 10 or so) they usually go into their crates without being directed. Throughout the day we practice sit, down, stay, come. They enjoy the training and are even pretty good about following commands when they are beside each other. When I'm giving one a reward for following a command, the other patiently waits for his turn and his treat (or at least that's what has happened yesterday and today). 
I'm writing all this because I want to raise these pups to be awesome, well-adjusted dogs we can take into any environment. I know they have tons of potential and I just don't want to wreck it….so I'm humbling myself to the experts who will keep it real, keep me on track and help me give these boys a great life. Thanks in advance!


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Jake and Elwood said:


> I know you're right and I need to increase their separation time immediately. They are 8 1/2 weeks old now (many pups wouldn't have been separated from litter at this point…right)? I think the one I leave behind would be fine but I am having a hard time having confidence that nothing bad will happen to him while I'm gone with the other. Will I cause long-term fear/anxiety If I take one away and the crated pup cries for two hours ...or is it all just part of training pups? Right now we have a puppy-proof side of our garage with a doggie door to a 16 X 24 ft outside dog run. Outside of the dog run is our fenced back yard. I spend the majority of my day in the garage. I sit on the floor and play with them, brush them, etc. or sit at a table with my laptop working on work-related stuff. Puppies have their beds, toys,etc. and enjoy just being close to each other and to me. I'm noticing that they are getting better about going outside on their own and leaving their littermate inside. I honestly feel I'm neglecting them if I leave them at all…..


Most litters start going home anytime after 7 weeks and many are completely broken up by 8, some linger until 9-12 wks. I brought my BC pup home at 7 wks. 

What are you worried about happening to the one you leave behind? 

You will not create long-time fear/anxiety by taking one away from the other for a few hours. You'll be teaching it that it's NORMAL and that his friend always comes back, but guess what? It's more fun to work with YOU than the brother. 

The problem is, if you don't separate them now and work them separate, they are going to form a bond that WILL cause anxiety and stress, and possibly destruction. What will you do if one has to be at the vet for a procedure/monitoring (knock on wood) and the other can't cope at home and destroys your house/yard/pen to the point of severely harming himself or escaping and getting injured? What happens when one dies much later in life and the other is so stressed out that he loses all will to live, or again breaks out/hurts himself trying to find his friend? THAT is unhealthy and a huge problem for you.

What do you think puppies in single dog homes do at this age? With people who work 8 hour days? They grow up just fine without their litter around.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Jake and Elwood said:


> Let me start this post my stating….Tomorrow is the day I will crate one and take the other for a little trip for a new harness (will take about an hour). Thanks to all of you for your patience and persistence. I know your advice is correct and I realize most (if not all) of you have tons of experience and have raised many healthy, well-adjusted GSD's. That's my goal too. Following is a brief "day in the life" of Trapper and Hawkeye. Please offer suggestions.
> 
> They are crated in side-by-side wire kennels for the night (~ 10 pm until ~ 6 am). I sleep on the sofa beside them so I will hear them. They usually wake me about 1:00, 4:00, and then around 6 am. Each time they both are awake. I leash one, pick him up and take him out to his "pee/poo" spot. They are both usually quick to do their business. Then I pick them up and bring them in and repeat the process with the second puppy. They like a little drink of water after their 4 am outing. At ~ 6 am they are done sleeping and ready to play. After they've gone out to pee/poo, we come in and play on the floor in the living room for about 15 minutes. Then I feed them (in their kennels). After that they usually stay in their kennels for a nap for about 1/2 hr…then out to pee/poo and play. This is their free play time (supervised) in the back yard where they pick up sticks, smell plants/flowers, pick flowers, and play fight (a lot) with each other). After play time we go into "their space" which consists of a one-bay heated side of the garage with a dog door to an outdoor dog run. They spend the next couple of hours in there going in an out, taking naps, playing with their chew toys, balls, squeak toys, etc. They eat lunch at noon (in plastic crates located in "their space"). Today we watched Jeremiah Johnson on a little TV on the floor (they seemed to enjoy that) while laying on their karunda beds. They are good about going out to their dog run to pee/poo from "their space". At ~ 5 pm we go back into the basement for dinner in their wire crates. After dinner it's outside free play for a little while and then back to "their space" for supervised play/naps. At about 8 pm (after they pee/poo)we go to the basement for play time on the floor with their toys and me and my husband. When they get tired (~ 10 or so) they usually go into their crates without being directed. Throughout the day we practice sit, down, stay, come. They enjoy the training and are even pretty good about following commands when they are beside each other. When I'm giving one a reward for following a command, the other patiently waits for his turn and his treat (or at least that's what has happened yesterday and today).
> I'm writing all this because I want to raise these pups to be awesome, well-adjusted dogs we can take into any environment. I know they have tons of potential and I just don't want to wreck it….so I'm humbling myself to the experts who will keep it real, keep me on track and help me give these boys a great life. Thanks in advance!


This sounds like a great routine. 

The only thing I would suggest, is whenever you're having play time with them, to crate one and play with the other, then rotate. Play ONE ON ONE with the puppies and incorporate some training. When your husband and you are both playing with them, put them both on leads in the same room and you guys can work with them individually around each other. Lots of tug, short fetches and obedience, then switch off and do the same. 

When they're just laying around napping and you're working, crate and rotate them. Let one hang out loose with you for a while, while the other sleeps in the crate and vice versa. 

Maybe pick a time of the day while one goes inside and is crated while the other is loose with you in the garage, and switch it off every other day.


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## Jake and Elwood (Feb 1, 2014)

DJEtzel said:


> This sounds like a great routine.
> 
> The only thing I would suggest, is whenever you're having play time with them, to crate one and play with the other, then rotate. Play ONE ON ONE with the puppies and incorporate some training. When your husband and you are both playing with them, put them both on leads in the same room and you guys can work with them individually around each other. Lots of tug, short fetches and obedience, then switch off and do the same.
> 
> ...


Makes perfect sense! The picture is getting clearer. They actually both seem to enjoy a little crate-protected time from the other so can take advantage of that. I am working on a new "command" every day. They are troopers and loving their little world. The indulgent side of me allowed them to slip and slide on the pool cover (with ~ 6 inches of water on it). They thought it was the best giant wading pool ever. Will work on re-training next spring. Don't like them on the pool cover but can't resist their puppy happiness and love of the pool cover activities. Today we conquered "focus"…aka look into my eyes…they do really well. Tomorrow will be all about "calm". One day at a time. Loving tho new life and these new adorable, smart little pups!


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