# GSD puppy neutered by shelter at 6 weeks! Will there be any future side effects?



## ALynott (Mar 3, 2013)

Hi there,

I'm new so I hope I'm posting in the right place - if not, please feel free to move me to somewhere more appropriate!

Basically, we've been looking to adopt a GSD puppy for a while now and just came across one at a local rescue, but the shelter they rescued him from neutered him at 6 weeks old!

Can anyone tell me, will he suffer any long term side effects from being neutered so young, physically or temperamentally?

This was recent, he's still 6 weeks old now, but on the small side and thin (I'm going back tomorrow to see him again and find out exactly how much he weighs). He was only rescued on Monday and he's pretty shell shocked so it's difficult to gauge temperament.

Apparently the shelter neuters with NO anesthetic and so I'm worried that the whole experience may have scared him - is that likely or is he young enough to get over trauma like that?

He also arrived at the shelter with only half a tail, god knows what happened to the poor little thing...

Any help would be much appreciated! Thanks so much,
Alanna


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

I've gotten dogs from the shelter that were neutered early and never had a problem. One boy I got at about 5 months and he was really traumatized from the shelter environment and whatever happened to him before. He is over a year now and the biggest social cuddle-bug on the planet. He was young enough that with socialization and love he forgot all about his trauma.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

The ones I have seen who were neutered at 8 weeks, never developed a proper penis. They don't develop muscle and grow too tall. it also seems to have a bad effect on their bone structure. I personally would not adopt a pup like that but that is MHO. I don't like to neuter the males if it isn't needed. People are so paranoid about intact males. I do spay my females though for health reason and for not getting puppies.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

wolfy dog said:


> The ones I have seen who were neutered at 8 weeks, never developed a proper penis. They don't develop muscle and grow too tall. it also seems to have a bad effect on their bone structure. I personally would not adopt a pup like that but that is MHO. I don't like to neuter the males if it isn't needed. People are so paranoid about intact males. I do spay my females though for health reason and for not getting puppies.


You and I are at totally different ends of this fence. LOL I wouldn't take a dog that wasn't neutered. The younger the better as far as I'm concerned. I let one dog go longer and I hated it. 

Intact male dogs are yucky. Humping everything, so full of boy hormones, and IMO they are more stinky too. Ugh! His male brother that we neutered younger actually looked the more male of the two... BTW none of my boys have ever had a messed up penis or grew too tall or any of that.


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## Karma6577 (Jan 22, 2013)

Boys do stink!! ???


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> You and I are at totally different ends of this fence. LOL I wouldn't take a dog that wasn't neutered. The younger the better as far as I'm concerned. I let one dog go longer and I hated it.
> 
> Intact male dogs are yucky. Humping everything, so full of boy hormones, and IMO they are more stinky too. Ugh! His male brother that we neutered younger actually looked the more male of the two... BTW none of my boys have ever had a messed up penis or grew too tall or any of that.


I never noticed any of that in my intact males. Doing research on it helps. There are some issues that can arise from early sputers, but not in all dogs. Why do you think this was done without anesthesia? I'd be WAY more concerned about that! Was it a rumor that you heard?


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

Sorry OP, I cant answer your question, but why in the world would they neuter the poor puppy without anesthesia...



Also, my spayed female is more smelly than my intact male


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## ALynott (Mar 3, 2013)

First of all, thank you for the replies - please keep them coming! I need to know as much as possible to help make the decision of whether to adopt this pup or not...

*Jag *and *gsdlover91* - Regarding the neutering w/out anesthesia I really have NO IDEA why they would do something like that!! It seems barbaric to me. A girl at the rescue center the puppy is at now told me that the shelter they found him at routinely neuter without anesthetic. She was quite young, but I don't know why she would say that if it wasn't true. I am going back tomorrow and I'll find out more....

*wolfy dog* - In Europe I never spayed or neutered my dogs, and we never had any unwanted pregnancies, etc., but in LA it's mandatory to spay/neuter a dog before it reaches 4 months (unless you have a breeders license) due to the large number of unwanted dogs in the city. I can see the sense in it, although I do worry about the effects of spaying this early...


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

There are other exemptions... which I'd be looking into. I'd rather pay the fine. Politicians shouldn't be getting involved in this without having all the info. I agree that if someone's going to be that irresponsible they probably can't be trusted with an intact animal. However, for those that are it doesn't seem right. Who is 'monitoring' this? I can't see them having people out in force to make sure this is done.... Yes, find out yourself what's done in the clinic. Taking things as the truth second hand can cause all sorts of problems.


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

OP, I dont assume it is the end of the world, but I dont think fixing a dog that early is healthy either. Its probably bound to cause some development issues..some you may or may not notice. I think the main issue as wolfy dog said, is immature development of the external genitalia. I dont know, it just wont have all those manly hormones they need to develop. Doesnt mean it wont potentially be healthy and live a normal life with the right person. Id make sure the puppy is healthy though. Going through a surgery THAT young without an anesthetic....i dont know.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

ALynott said:


> *wolfy dog* - In Europe I never spayed or neutered my dogs, and we never had any unwanted pregnancies, etc., but in LA it's mandatory to spay/neuter a dog before it reaches 4 months (unless you have a breeders license) due to the large number of unwanted dogs in the city. I can see the sense in it, although I do worry about the effects of spaying this early...


I also lived in Europe for many years and have the same experience. Ironically in these countries there is not an over population, just more responsible dog owners.

To Jag: I posted about the dogs I have seen (observations of dogs in classes), not what research I did or read.....

To Shepherd mom: it is OK to disagree. My male dogs don't stink, don't hump anything because they are healthy and trained. How else could police dogs function?

Male dogs are often portrayed as breeding monsters with only that on their mind including roaming, fighting etc. True, some require more management and training than neutered males. Kinda like riding a stallion versus a gelding.


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

Why would an intact male be stinkier than a fixed one? I don't get it. Wolfy dog I agree, my male is not stinky, and doesn't hump...and he's in the prime of his adolescence!


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

If you really like this puppy, don't let the early neuter/spay stop you from getting it. Way more things can go wrong than an early spay. The vets here routinely advocate spaying at 6 months, which I don't think is different from 6 weeks when it comes to hormones. My friend's kitten was spayed at 6 weeks in the shelter, and grew up to be a fine cat.


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## ALynott (Mar 3, 2013)

Ok, so far I've found research that indicates:

- no link between early spaying to arthritis or long bone fractures
- a rise of about 2% in hip dysplasia, although oddly enough it tends to be a less severe form
- separation anxiety, aggression, escape behavior and inappropriate elimination are often _reduced_, while noise phobia and sexual behavior can be _increased_.
- bone cancer & some kind of heart tumors can be more prevalent 
- prostate cancer risks are decreased
- can grow taller
- external genitalia can not develop properly, which can lead to urinary tract/incontience problems in female dogs

The thing is, in these studies there doesn't seem to be any differentiation between spaying at 6 weeks or 5 months - both are deemed to be 'early' spay/neuter....


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

But, the PHYSICAL differences in a puppy at 6 weeks and 6 months is vastly different. I know my boys cash and prizes looked WAY different at 6 months than it did when I first got him. Hormones fuel all that growth!


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

OP, if the puppy is otherwise healthy, I say go for it. As long as you want to give him a loving home, why not? Someone has to give it to him. Just make sure he is healthy!


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## Ksalrunner (Dec 31, 2012)

No anesthesia?!! That seems barbaric. Poor baby go save him! LOL My guess is that he probably won't have any lasting effects as long as you socialize him right away. I'd probaly make an appointment at your vet and take along plenty of treats so it's a 100% good experience. No vaccines only a gentle check up. As far as health, there are some benefits to waiting until a male is a bit older until he's neutered, but I wouldn't worry too much about that.
Good luck.


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

gsdlover91 said:


> But, the PHYSICAL differences in a puppy at 6 weeks and 6 months is vastly different. I know my boys cash and prizes looked WAY different at 6 months than it did when I first got him. Hormones fuel all that growth!


They will grow regardless of the spay/neuter. 

If growth and development in dogs can be equated to growth and developement in humans, the hormones affected by speuter affect the SECONDARY sex characteristics in dogs. So in boys, that'll be more muscle mass, etc. 

Both 6 weeks and 6 months are considered "pre-pubescent", which is before all the puberty hormones come.

Though you are right, 6 weeks and 6 months are different. Some vets aren't experienced with spaying 6 week tiny parts. Though, I think shelter vets don't fall in this category, since they probably routinely speuter that young for kittens and puppies.

Just my opinion.


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## AddieGirl (May 10, 2011)

I am in shock over the "no anesthesia" part. If that is true, whoever did the neuter should be reported to the proper authorities. I've never heard of anyone neutering anything without anesthesia, other than farm animals that are sometimes banded. But that is done over a long period of time, and there is no cutting! I'd adopt the little guy in a heartbeat. I've had altered animals my whole life and never ever had any problems. Good luck!


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## Shaolin (Jun 16, 2012)

General comment: I wonder if they use those castration bands instead of surgical. At the same time...I don't think the testes have dropped to band them...

I actually had more humping problems with my netuered male than I did with my unaltered males. I've also just not had that many "issues" that are usually associated with non-neutered males. I do know with my early neutered male, he never lifts his leg to pee and he's taller than the standard for the two dogs he's mixed with...


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

shepherdmom said:


> You and I are at totally different ends of this fence. LOL I wouldn't take a dog that wasn't neutered. The younger the better as far as I'm concerned. I let one dog go longer and I hated it.
> 
> Intact male dogs are yucky.* Humping everything, so full of boy hormones, and IMO they are more stinky too. * Ugh! His male brother that we neutered younger actually looked the more male of the two... BTW none of my boys have ever had a messed up penis or grew too tall or any of that.


This is sooo not true!! I don't want others to read this and believe it. My intact male doesn't hump or try to mount...he's very well behaved and has no odor whatsoever. If your dog smells, look at what you are feeding. 
Wow, sometimes posts are so out of this world it makes me wonder.....

I wish rescue/shelters would do tubal ligation/ vasectomy's instead of full neuters on young pups. Then the pup could grow up with hormones intact but not be able to reproduce. It is less invasive and much cheaper as well. When will they get on board with this!?


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## AddieGirl (May 10, 2011)

Shaolin said:


> General comment: I wonder if they use those castration bands instead of surgical. At the same time...I don't think the testes have dropped to band them...


I was wondering the same thing.. did they go in to the abdomen to get the testicles? And if so, that would be even MORE painful without anesthesia and virtually impossible with a squirming puppy. I hope the OP clarifies whether this is just a rumor or how they know this to be true.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I would really hope that the dog was under anesthesia, but a neuter is not like a spay. Dogs get their tails docked without going under? I think that might be worse then a neuter. A neuter would consist of a small incision, which was probably numbed before hand. There is no way that a puppy could be neutered without something, because it would just move around to much. Circumcision's are done on baby boys without being put under, kinda the same thing. I think that the dog will be fine and if you want a puppy, this one needs a home just as much as the next. All my dogs my whole life have been fixed at or before 6 months, with no problems. The boys were still boys Good Luck and please post pictures when you get him


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> This is sooo not true!! I don't want others to read this and believe it. My intact male doesn't hump or try to mount...he's very well behaved and has no odor whatsoever. If your dog smells, look at what you are feeding.
> Wow, sometimes posts are so out of this world it makes me wonder.....
> 
> I wish rescue/shelters would do tubal ligation/ vasectomy's instead of full neuters on young pups. Then the pup could grow up with hormones intact but not be able to reproduce. It is less invasive and much cheaper as well. When will they get on board with this!?


I don't believe all male dogs are this way, but the few I have rescued that weren't fixed were obsessive humpers...almost couldn't find homes for them because of it. The worst one finally stopped humping about a month after being neutered. As far as being stinky, I have never come across that. The whole point of spaying a female is to get the parts out that could eventually become cancerous, a tubal won't do that. It would make no sense to me to have my dog put under and only do half of the job, do it all since they are under. The main hormone that is affected are the sex hormones and personally I don't think that a dog needs to have a "sex drive", what does that do for the dog?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

It isn't about 'sex drive' but about having testosterone to grow properly.


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## AddieGirl (May 10, 2011)

llombardo said:


> I would really hope that the dog was under anesthesia, but a neuter is not like a spay. Dogs get their tails docked without going under? I think that might be worse then a neuter. A neuter would consist of a small incision, which was probably numbed before hand. There is no way that a puppy could be neutered without something, because it would just move around to much. Circumcision's are done on baby boys without being put under, kinda the same thing. I think that the dog will be fine and if you want a puppy, this one needs a home just as much as the next. All my dogs my whole life have been fixed at or before 6 months, with no problems. The boys were still boys Good Luck and please post pictures when you get him


I work at a spay/neuter clinic so I know how a neuter is done, and it would still be much worse than a tail dock. They pull the testicles out and tug really hard before cutting and tying them off. You are right about the puppy moving around though. We are a low-cost clinic and people like to start rumors saying that we must not use anesthesia since the pricing is so low (mostly funded by our humane society). We always joke with eachother about how "FUN" it would be to chase animals around all day trying to remove their parts while they are awake.. Yeah. LOL. I'm hoping that this is just a similar rumor.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

It is very possible that the young girl who said this doesn't have a clue what she is talking about. I bet what they use is isoflorane gas, which is so quick and easy. On a young puppy a few breaths into a cone, asleep fast, a quick surgery and then taken off gas and puppy wakes up. They would not even intubate this young, just let them breath through the nose cone. Same way they spay females young, quick gas, quick surgery, very little blood loss and awake.
I know lots of pros and cons about neutering young. At least there is no chance of the puppies coming out of this particular shelter producing puppies.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

I'm laughing at the comments regarding intact males...stinky, humping everything, raging hormones. Never experienced any of these things & I don't believe it's because I got lucky with my intact male. 

Anyways...OP neutering at 6 weeks is not ideal by any means. But this is a pup that needs a home, you want a GSD & considered rescue or you would not have been there. This pup could be the best buddy for you


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## AddieGirl (May 10, 2011)

wyominggrandma said:


> It is very possible that the young girl who said this doesn't have a clue what she is talking about. I bet what they use is isoflorane gas, which is so quick and easy. On a young puppy a few breaths into a cone, asleep fast, a quick surgery and then taken off gas and puppy wakes up. They would not even intubate this young, just let them breath through the nose cone. Same way they spay females young, quick gas, quick surgery, very little blood loss and awake.
> I know lots of pros and cons about neutering young. At least there is no chance of the puppies coming out of this particular shelter producing puppies.



That is a possibility. Iso could have been used. We do that with male cats, but since we require all animals to be 12 weeks for surgery I didn't think about just using gas on a puppy. But still the puppy would have been completely asleep so still considered under anesthesia. I wish the OP would come back and explain.. I know the puppy is fine, I'm just really curious.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

They had to have used some kind of anesthesia - you need to go to the source and clarify it. I am sure that they would appreciate you doing so. 

Doesn't develop a proper penis??? If this were even to happen, how would this impact the dog? 

I have a dog who was neutered very early - about 5/6 weeks - from the shelter before going to rescue. While I would have preferred a little wait there (!) he's 7 this year and we also did not have a choice when he was pulled for rescue (see below for why). 

He's the black dog - normal legs:









Head is not at all pin-sized:









Active and playful (he's the one putting his breaks on as he bites his friend)









I will say that they did use anesthesia for his surgery and it did not go well. He has had some issues (vertigo, motion sickness) from being gone for a minute - however, had he not been neutered, he would have been gone forever having been scheduled to be put to sleep with his two sisters, both of who have no issues - one is a therapy dog.

He's gone to the vet yearly for his wellness exams and had diarrhea once last year, and one other time, 4 years ago.


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## Shaolin (Jun 16, 2012)

Courtney said:


> I'm laughing at the comments regarding intact males...stinky, humping everything, raging hormones. Never experienced any of these things & I don't believe it's because I got lucky with my intact male...


Think the smell comes from being more active? I know Finn starts to get a little ripe after about a month without a bath, but to burn off all his energy, he gets almost 3-4 hours of exercise/play a day whereas my non-GSD mixed neutered male only needs an hour or so a day and he sleeps like a baby.

Yeah. I'm laughing as well. Never had a problem with an intact boy.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> He's the black dog - normal legs:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A picture is worth a thousand words.... Should have thought of this myself. 










Buddy neutered young second dog from left. Shadow left intact. Second dog from right. Brothers and littermates. Which one looks more male? 

Buddy (neutered early) is 11 today and still for the most part going strong...









Shadow who we waited to neuter passed away over a year ago from DM


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

I wouldn't put too much stock in what the rescue says, if they don't have proof to back it up. This is not meant as a rescue bash! I love most of them and donate my time, effort and money local efforts. However, this wouldn't be the first time a rescue (or shelter, for that matter) charged up an animal's condition with a biography that isn't true.

This could be a situation where the puppy doesn't look like the rescue thinks it should at 8 weeks, and has "decided" that it is actually 6 weeks. Maybe they think it is a purebred GSD, but it is too small to be an 8 week old purebred, so it becomes a 6 week old. Maybe this is a purebred puppy, but it had some nutritional deficiencies earlier and is a little on the scrawny side and the rescue has decided that saying it is 6 weeks old is better than saying it is scrawny.

My point is that there is no way to tell, and to hear that the rescue is telling potential adopters the shelter doesn't use anesthesia because that is "what they heard" tells me that they might be a little loose with their definition of "fact".

Regarding the potential side effects of pediatric neuters, as long as the penis works (i.e., the dog can urinate without problem), does it really matter in the long run if the external genitalia is less "developed"? And being fractionally taller won't be a deterrent to the dog enjoying many happy years with his family, especially when you consider that the difference is most often so small that the average pet owner would not be able to point them out. 

Congratulations on finding a puppy to love.
Sheilah


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

People have different degrees of sense of smell - from Bloodhound level to French Bulldog (just guessing they would have less!) so some people may be able to smell hormonal odors. I can smell staph infections, if there is any non-fresh produce in a grocery store, and traces of urine like a champ.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> They had to have used some kind of anesthesia - you need to go to the source and clarify it. I am sure that they would appreciate you doing so.
> 
> Doesn't develop a proper penis??? If this were even to happen, how would this impact the dog?
> 
> ...


:thumbup:
Love it, Jean! Gorgeous dogs! Maybe you can post a picture of his private parts, since they are supposed to be deteriorated


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

RebelGSD said:


> :thumbup:
> Love it, Jean! Gorgeous dogs! Maybe you can post a picture of his private parts, since they are supposed to be deteriorated


:rofl: 

Poor dog! I will have to ask his vet to rate it when he goes for his yearly.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

Who knows what the young girl from the rescue knows and thinks, not every volunteer understands every detail of every procedure. And, unless actual birth dates are known, it can be quite hard to judge whether it is 8 or 6 weeks. It does not mean that a rescue is intending to deceive someone.
The idea that surgeries are done without anesthesia is quite absurd, I don't think any sane vet would agree to do it (and risk their own safety by getting bitten by an animal in pain). This sounds like some kid not knowing what she is talking about.

I too lived in Europe, and there are plenty of homeless dogs there too. I did own one unneutered male while living there, a Maltese, and he was humping everything including pillows. I also had freshly neutered young (around 18 months) GSD returned because the adopter was freaked out that the dog was having sex with his blanket in his crate


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> People have different degrees of sense of smell - from Bloodhound level to French Bulldog (just guessing they would have less!) so some people may be able to smell hormonal odors. I can smell staph infections, if there is any non-fresh produce in a grocery store, and traces of urine like a champ.


I am very sensitive to scents and it was even worse when I was younger and having kids. Any strong odor often makes me gag.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

RebelGSD said:


> :thumbup:
> Love it, Jean! Gorgeous dogs! Maybe you can post a picture of his private parts, since they are supposed to be deteriorated


:spittingcoffee: Buddy frequently sits with his red rocket hanging out. Maybe I should try to get a picture. Would that be considered doggie porn?


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

wolfy dog said:


> I also lived in Europe for many years and have the same experience. Ironically in these countries there is not an over population, just more responsible dog owners.
> 
> *To Jag: I posted about the dogs I have seen (observations of dogs in classes), not what research I did or read.....
> *
> ...


*SIgh* once again I've failed to make a clear post. I agree with you about it. If you research actual scientific papers there's evidence of issues with neutering too early. I wasn't telling you to research, and we both feel the same way on the issue.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Jag said:


> If you research actual scientific papers there's evidence of issues with neutering too early.


There is also research done that says that there are issues with neutering later or not all...it goes both ways. It pretty much is a personal preference for everyone. It is an endless argument and it will never be resolved.


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## ALynott (Mar 3, 2013)

Thank you for all the posts, it's really very helpful. 

Re: the neutering w/out anesthesia, I dont yet know any more. I'm going back today to ask more questions and will update as soon as I find out anything.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

ALynott said:


> Thank you for all the posts, it's really very helpful.
> 
> Re: the neutering w/out anesthesia, I dont yet know any more. I'm going back today to ask more questions and will update as soon as I find out anything.
> 
> ...


Will you possibly be bringing him home today? I get excited when a dog finds a forever home


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

We like pictures! As you can tell!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

> The diameter of the penis in male dogs castrated at 7 weeks of age is smaller as is the os penis, and preputial development is juvenile in comparison with animals castrated at 7 months of age or left intact, but there has been no clinical significance attached to those differences - See more at: Pediatric Spay/Neuter - Petfinder


So there you go! How about that. 

He is alive and that's all that matters.  
http://www.petfinder.com/pro/for-shelters/pediatric-spay-neuter/#sthash.Zq71rdx4.dpuf


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> So there you go! How about that.
> 
> He is alive and that's all that matters.
> http://www.petfinder.com/pro/for-shelters/pediatric-spay-neuter/#sthash.Zq71rdx4.dpuf


I think it is hilarious that people spend time and resources comparing diameters and lengths. Scientifically I wonder how they account for the individual length/diameter variations  ? Or what they would be if the animal remained intact?

I guess it never occurred to me to look at these parameters when selecting my pet. Live and learn


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## CelticGlory (Jan 19, 2006)

Even if he wasn't under anesthesia, there is local. They could have used that to just numb the feeling in that area. The other possibility is also tranquilizing the animal as well. I wouldn't worry unless the area becomes swollen/infected. Otherwise, I would adopt him!


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

I don't think there is enough evidence to support either side of the early speuter claim. If there were solid, concrete, indisputable evidence for either practice, then it wouldn't be the contentious topic that it is now.

Not to stand on a soap box, but I think a lot of us are losing sight of the OP's question, which, and please correct me if I am mistaken, is: would the early speuter have a significant enough impact on this dog's health and overall well-being that should cause the OP to NOT adopt this dog.

I think many of us are arguing for the ideal speuter situation, which is largely our own opinions and choices of how we've cared for the dogs we've had. I think collectively, we've posted more than enough opinions for both sides to at least entice the OP, or anyone else wandering into the thread, to research more on their own if this were a decision that the OP could make.

Fact is, the puppy will be speutered, like nearly all animals coming out of shelters these days. 

I personally do not think the early speuter should factor into the OP's adoption decision, but that is just me.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

I agree with Marshies.......
I wouldn't "not" adopt a puppy just because it has been neutered at 6 weeks.
There are many health issues that *MAY* pop up along the way regardless of if the pup is neutered not neutered or neutered early neutered late......and most will be totally unrelated anyway.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

* Enough with the childish snippy back and forth personal arguements! How is the name calling and attacks going to help the OP. Back on subject, or warnings will be sent. 

ADMIN *

I also went back and deleted a bunch of posts that were part of a personal arguement and only detracted from the discussion at hand.


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## Sitz&Platz (Oct 20, 2012)

There are so many different studies out there with different results on early spay/neuter, it makes my head spin. My deceased lab was neutered at 8 months, my Maltese mix is still intact at almost 6 years of age. My lab never humped anything, my Maltese lady is a different story. The first time she humped, she chose my arm, and when I tried to move my arm, she wrapped her legs around it and continued to hump, while she was velcroed to my arm.  Quite a sight. She still humps like crazy. Her favorite thing to do is to face hump other dogs, first my lab, now poor Dexter. I know, that's puppy abuse!

I keep joking with my husband, that she could never reproduce, since she goes straight for the head.  We decided to keep her intact, because spaying is more invasive. I'm having a hard time with the fact that I have to neuter Dexter in a few months, before we have Maltese/Shepherd mix babies running around the house. 

Dexter will be neutered at 7 months, and while it's not as early as 6 weeks, I'm still concerned, because of all the different opinions on early neutering. If I had a choice, I would leave him intact.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Why not spay her before the chance of pyometra?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

There won't be any issues with this dog because of the early neuter. You're rescuing, most rescue/shelter organizations do not adopt out dogs without neutering them. Most of those dogs live long and happy lives. Since there is no pedigree behind this boy, you have no idea if his issues will be from genetics or an early neuter. He'll look a little different, he won't be as filled out as other males, but apart from physical differences anything that is temperament related will most likely be genetic.

I would run back to that shelter and get this boy out of there if you're truly interested.

To everyone else that's answering about how they aren't spuetring their dogs until age X...remember this is a rescue situation. These organizations usually do not allow any dog to leave their care without being spuetered, no matter what age its at. I have a neighbor who has a mixed breed that was spayed at 6 weeks old. Perfectly happy, perfectly fine dog. She's the friendliest thing you'll ever meet and her any my boy get along extremely well.

No anesthesia or just local probably won't affect him at all either, he's young, he'll bounce back from it.


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## Sitz&Platz (Oct 20, 2012)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Why not spay her before the chance of pyometra?


Surprisingly, my new vet is not a big fan of spaying females unless it's necessary. She can't wait to get her hands on Dexter, but as for my Maltese, she does not recommend spaying her at this point. In her opinion, the risk of pyometra does not outweigh the benefits of leaving her intact. Works for me.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

My rescue male was neutered very young. He's the worst humper we've ever had but other than that...I can't think of any reason to regret his neuter. I mean, he's a rescue dog, unknown origin, mixed breed. He is rather tall and leggy so it's possible the lack of hormones effected his growth but who cares, he's not a "breed" so there's no standard. He has a few skin issues and his hips will develop arthritis as he ages (he does not have HD but the femoral heads are not real smooth), other than that he's been a healthy dog.

I totally get the reasons for *not* neutering early on but if you are looking for a baby puppy from a rescue or shelter, you might be barking up the wrong tree, so to speak. I know of some rescues that will allow the dog to be neutered at 4 or 6 months but most will not release the dog before it's done.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I would say it's very rare for a shelter dog to not be neutered or spayed either at the shelter or as a requirement within 30 days. The only reason I didn't have to spay Jax earlier than 6 months was that I made the vet appt while standing there filling out the adoption papers and my vet sent in a note giving the appt date and reason for delaying until she was older.

A shelter's primary concern is population control. So, as LIes stated above, if you are going to get a shelter dog then this is something you have to accept.

As far as humping dogs...I've had intact males and the worst humper we've ever had was my spayed female.  Humping is a dominance thing more than a sexual thing so either sex can be guilty of it. As far as the smell, I never noticed a smell on any of my dogs unless there was a yeasty skin issue going on and that has nothing to do with reproductive organs.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Sitz&Platz said:


> Surprisingly, my new vet is not a big fan of spaying females unless it's necessary. She can't wait to get her hands on Dexter, but as for my Maltese, she does not recommend spaying her at this point. In her opinion, the risk of pyometra does not outweigh the benefits of leaving her intact. Works for me.


Is it just me or is that opposite of what most people say/think? That is interesting.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Getting my dog neutered made both the humping and the smell go away. He turned back into the loving puppy again. Just sayin..... 

All of my dogs with the exception of Shadow were spayed or neutered early and in 25 + years of owning dogs I've never had a problem because of it. 

The only problems I had was with the one I left intact because everyone told me too. And amazingly when we got him neutered the issues went away. 

You can all doubt what I'm saying but I don't lie, I don't claim to be an expert and I have no agenda I was just trying to help. 

I really feel like I have been jumped on unfairly in this thread and I'm not sure what I did to have you all act like I'm lying when I say he turned into a smelly hormonal humping dog. Because that is exactly what happened. 

Op I hope you get the pup and post pictures. I will stick with looking at puppy pictures from now on and quit trying to help.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Maybe he had some hormone imbalance causing skin and coat problems? I would not say you are lying or don't know what you're talking about, but it's a first for me hearing that an intact male is more smelly. In what way was he smelly? At any rate, if neutering fixed all his issues (pun intended) then I don't see the problem. But you have to at least see that you're saying in 25 years all but one of your dogs was speutered early and a lot of people in this thread have also had dogs for 25 years and few or none have been speutered early if at all and had no problems. So who is right? We can all bring our own anecdotal evidence to the table. Personally, I've had no problems with my neutered dog and no problems with my intact breeding dog. The latter has never humped a thing in his life so we're curious to see how his first live cover breeding goes later this month, lol.

When it comes to rescue and shelter dogs, they are going to be neutered early on. That's something people just have to accept. If that's a huge problem, look elsewhere for a dog.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

OP, Are you getting this puppy? If you want him, snatch him up now. I doubt he will last long. My little guy is a mix puppy. I adopted him sight unseen from an out of state shelter. He was neutered at 8 weeks. I don't worry about it. The puppy is great. I hope you, or someone, enjoys the GSD puppy as much as I enjoy mine.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Humping is not a sign of sex unless the female is in heat and willing to be bred. In all other case it is dominance. That's why every dog can hump, whether male to male, female to female, female to male or male to female, neutered or intact. 
So if your dogs humps you, you need to provide him with more leadership.
Regarding smell, neutered or not every dog can smell bad because of health, dirt or the food they eat.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

Hi Alanna,

Welcome to the forum  and hopefully to the wonderful world of owning a rescue dog, as well.

This puppy is still so young, I don't think you need to have big worries about a behavioral impact. Pups are like kids, and amazingly resilient with the right patience and love.

And judging from most of the responses, it doesn't sound like a 6-wk neuter is going to cause any conditions that would end up running up super huge vet bills, or cause major health issues down the road...

Going the shelter route, it seems like you're looking for a good pet more than anything, and rescues can be the best pets ever. 

At only 6 weeks, you more likely getting lucky, and avoiding a lot of the issues that most rescues face. They just haven't had time to have their personalities totally screwed up, yet 

My male GSD was seized from a longbarn with over 200 other dogs at the age of eleven months. He had only half an ear (a lot of them did), he was starving, and a very fearful, unsocialized, untrained, just plain pitiful guy who I had NO intention of keeping permanently. That changed 

If your heart warms when you visit little half-tail, feel free to follow it, and don't let the early neuter deter you. I just don't see any serious enough consequences to deny the little guy a loving home.

Good luck, and keep us posted. Would love to see pics and hear another rescue success story!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Sitz&Platz said:


> . In her opinion, the risk of pyometra does not outweigh the benefits of leaving her intact. Works for me.


Can you explain what the benefits of leaving her intact as explained by your vet?


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## sunsets (Oct 25, 2012)

Personally, an early neuter would not stop me from adopting a shelter dog. As for "lingering trauma", I think sometimes we as humans put WAY too much stock into thinking that one bad/painful experience is going to mess up a dog for life. Such thinking can be bad, because we then ascribe future normal behaviors to a "reaction to trauma" and don't correct or reshape as we should. Which leads to more bad behavior which then gets blamed on the early puppyhood trauma and it's a downward spiral from there. 

(stop reading now if you don't want to think about surgery in a sheep barn)

I was an Agriculture major in college, and as such, had to take practical classes involving animal husbandry. One of these classes was sheep production, and we were in charge of supervising lambing and we would castrate the male lambs after 3-7 days of birth! No anesthesia, and no, it wasn't fun for the lamb. But seriously, if you had walked into the barn 1 hour post-procedure, you wouldn't be able to tell anything had happened. Mom would snuggle them and clean them up, and they'd be nursing or sleeping peacefully. 1-2 days later they'd be bouncing madly around the pasture. Granted, these were food/wool animals and we weren't concerned about their long-term mental health, but they didn't seem too traumatized.


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## sunsets (Oct 25, 2012)

And for those who want to read, here's an abstract of a "meta-analysis" of studies on early castration. 

J Reprod Fertil Suppl. 2001;57:223-32.
*Early-age neutering of dogs and cats in the United States (a review).*

Olson PN, Kustritz MV, Johnston SD.
*Source*

Guide Dogs for the Blind, Inc, 350 Los Ranchitos Road, San Rafael, CA 94903, USA.


Prepubertal gonadectomy, often referred to as early-age neutering, has increased in popularity in the United States. The procedure is often used at animal care and control facilities, where puppies and kittens are neutered as early as 7 weeks of age or before adoption. Although the anaesthetic and surgical procedures appear to be safe, studies continue to evaluate the long-term effects on health and behaviour. Early-age neutering is one technique that is used to combat pet overpopulation, a problem whereby millions of unwanted healthy dogs and cats are euthanased each year. Although neutering animals is helpful in controlling pet overpopulation, other factors must be considered. In addition, many animals are relinquished to shelters when they show inappropriate behaviours, because owners and veterinarians are unable to modify animal behaviour. This review discusses early-age neutering in the United States, and includes the review of scientific studies that have evaluated this procedure in puppies and kittens. Early-age neutering does not stunt growth in dogs or cats (a once-held belief), but may alter metabolic rates in cats. The anaesthetic and surgical procedures are apparently safe for young puppies and kittens; morbidity is lower and recovery is faster than in adult animals. To date, adverse side effects are apparently no greater in animals neutered at early ages (7 weeks) than in those neutered at the conventional age (7 months).


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## Sitz&Platz (Oct 20, 2012)

llombardo said:


> Can you explain what the benefits of leaving her intact as explained by your vet?


Just to clarify, in my case, my dog doesn't hump me. She did it once, and I was surprised to have 3 pounds of dog hanging from my arm, humping. She humps when she's in heat, not a dominance thing. I don't want people to think that I have a humping dog attached to my limbs at all times.  

Llombardo, anaesthesia per my vet, is always a greater risk for toy breeds in general. The older a dog gets, the tougher the muscles/tendons, which means a longer healing time and possibly more complications. At her age, there is no prevention from mammary tumors, and she could actually have an increased risk of urinary tumors and incontinence after the spay, as well as osteosarcoma and hemangiosarcoma. There were a few more things the vet mentioned, I don't remember all of them. But basically, the bottom line is that females can benefit from early spaying. My Maltese is 6, it's too late for her. She did mention that she prefers to only remove the ovaries during spaying, not sure why. I didn't ask, since I had decided against it. 

Having said that, I would still take the puppy in question and not worry about it too much. My worrying comes from reading too much and being the one to make the decision. But, I would take a puppy that was spayed or neutered early.


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Why not spay her before the chance of pyometra?


My cat almost died from pyometra, never taking that chance again!! 

As for my male GSD I have no plans to neuter him, he smells just fine and has never tried to hump anything. 

I can understand shelters neutering so young though, too many ignorant irresponsible people out there. I wouldn't let that stop me from adopting a pup or cat from the shelter.


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## ALynott (Mar 3, 2013)

Thank you SO MUCH for all the replies! Apologies if I sparked a bit of a heated debate... 

Anyway, when I went back to ask more about the spaying/neutering w/out anaesthetic the lady who knew most about his particular case wasn't there, so I don't know any more about that.

In the end, I decided that the early neuter didn't bother me at all, _however_ we decided that on balance an older rescue dog would suit us better than a puppy. I know he will be snapped up, because he's gorgeous, in fact he's probably found a home already (but I'm going to keep checking back to be sure).

We have found a wonderful Shepherd rescue in LA and yesterday we met some great dogs - the problem now is just trying to decide which of these beautiful boys to take home with us! I'm sure I'll be back with more questions once we bring him home.

Btw - just for interests sake, here's a picture of the 6 week old pup. It's not great, he was sleepy - but you can see how cute he is! (tiny feet - maybe a mix, although looks very GSD).


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

wolfy dog said:


> Humping is not a sign of sex unless the female is in heat and willing to be bred. In all other case it is dominance. That's why every dog can hump, whether male to male, female to female, female to male or male to female, neutered or intact.
> So if your dogs humps you, you need to provide him with more leadership.
> Regarding smell, neutered or not every dog can smell bad because of health, dirt or the food they eat.



You think all humping unless a female in heat is dominance? So if the dog is not humping another dog but sofa cushions, beanbag chairs, stuffed animals it is trying to be boss? Oh BTW what about when the yucky stuff comes out, is that still dominating? Cause when my dogs hump dominance it is generally with other dogs and usually around the head or back and the red rocket generally doesn't come out but apparently I'm not a strong enough leader 

As for smell. I had one dog who liked dead things, I've had dogs who liked to roll in horse poop, and one who jumped up and knocked a fly trap over to get the fly scent on her. I've had several who have played with skunks. I know the difference between normal stinky dogs and an intact male dog who IMO many have a distinctive scent that I do not like.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

ALynott said:


> Thank you SO MUCH for all the replies! Apologies if I sparked a bit of a heated debate...
> 
> Anyway, when I went back to ask more about the spaying/neutering w/out anaesthetic the lady who knew most about his particular case wasn't there, so I don't know any more about that.
> 
> ...


Everything around here sparks a heated debate.  I wouldn't worry about it. Thanks for sharing the puppy pictures! What a cutie!!! :wub:


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

ALynott said:


> Thank you SO MUCH for all the replies! Apologies if I sparked a bit of a heated debate...
> 
> Anyway, when I went back to ask more about the spaying/neutering w/out anaesthetic the lady who knew most about his particular case wasn't there, so I don't know any more about that.
> 
> ...


Pardon some of the mess in your thread. I wish you luck with your choice. Please post pics of your new family member


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

shepherdmom said:


> You think all humping unless a female in heat is dominance? So if the dog is not humping another dog but sofa cushions, beanbag chairs, stuffed animals it is trying to be boss? Oh BTW what about when the yucky stuff comes out, is that still dominating? Cause when my dogs hump dominance it is generally with other dogs and usually around the head or back and the red rocket generally doesn't come out but apparently I'm not a strong enough leader
> 
> As for smell. I had one dog who liked dead things, I've had dogs who liked to roll in horse poop, and one who jumped up and knocked a fly trap over to get the fly scent on her. I've had several who have played with skunks. I know the difference between normal stinky dogs and an intact male dog who IMO many have a distinctive scent that I do not like.


I don't care either way for neutering/spaying, and I actually lean towards the fact that most people SHOULD neuter early (maybe not 6 weeks but 6 months is fine). And I know I'm hypocritical because I have an intact male...but your information is very misleading.

Everything you've mentioned is a training issue. My dog is intact and does not hump anything. Inanimate or animate...well scratch that he will try to mount females even if they aren't in heat or they are spayed. He will not hump male dogs, he shows dominance in other ways...but that is because I've trained him not to hump.

And the smell thing...it was YOUR dog...not ALL intact dogs. My intact male definitely has less of a smell than the majority of dogs I have been around. We have a neutered male Westie in the family and as small as he is, he smells way worse than my GSD.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

ALynott said:


> Thank you SO MUCH for all the replies! *Apologies if I sparked a bit of a heated debate... *
> 
> Anyway, when I went back to ask more about the spaying/neutering w/out anaesthetic the lady who knew most about his particular case wasn't there, so I don't know any more about that.
> 
> ...


No worries. Speutering is a controversial subject around here. Not your fault. I'm sorry your thread went so off base.

The pup is absolutely adorable. Looks purebred to me. I understand you wanting to go with an older pup. Just not sure I could have passed him up. Please start a new thread, when you find your perfect match. We LOVE pictures.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

martemchik said:


> I don't care either way for neutering/spaying, and I actually lean towards the fact that most people SHOULD neuter early (maybe not 6 weeks but 6 months is fine). And I know I'm hypocritical because I have an intact male...but your information is very misleading.
> 
> Everything you've mentioned is a training issue. My dog is intact and does not hump anything. Inanimate or animate...well scratch that he will try to mount females even if they aren't in heat or they are spayed. He will not hump male dogs, he shows dominance in other ways...but that is because I've trained him not to hump.
> 
> And the smell thing...it was YOUR dog...not ALL intact dogs. My intact male definitely has less of a smell than the majority of dogs I have been around. We have a neutered male Westie in the family and as small as he is, he smells way worse than my GSD.


If everything I've mentioned was a training issue why did it go away the second I got him fixed? Why in 25+ years of owning dogs have I never had this issue before or since? Why do some of you seem to think I'm stupid? I've worked in a vet clinic, I've done 4-H obedience and Agility, I've helped with a SAR team, and I volunteer at a rescue. I've had as many as 5 dogs at one time and I currently have a pack of 4. I have plenty of experience with dogs. You all can jump on me all you like but it doesn't negate the fact that was my experience. But apparently I'm not supposed to share it or if I do you will do your best to discredit me and try to make me sound like I don't care for bath or train my dogs. Which couldn't be further from the truth. My dogs are not only well trained and clean but my vet says they are the most well behaved and friendly shepherds she has seen in her practice and she see's a lot. I do not understand why sharing my experience has created such controversy but hopefully now that the op has come back to let us know what happened the mods will shut down this thread.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Wow. Just keeps on going.....


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## Rua (Jan 2, 2012)

As regards the whole neutering without anaesthesia thing....

It's not as barbaric as it sounds. My sister works in an Animal Hospital, and they often do this on very very young puppies and kittens because full anaesthesia can be quite dangerous and risky, especially on the overly young.

Usually the procedure is very simple, quick and effective: They use a local anaesthesia, and carry out the necessary neutering, as opposed to putting the animal to sleep. The recovery time is generally quicker and it's supposed to be less traumatic for such a young animal.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> You think all humping unless a female in heat is dominance? So if the dog is not humping another dog but sofa cushions, beanbag chairs, stuffed animals it is trying to be boss? Oh BTW what about when the yucky stuff comes out, is that still dominating? Cause when my dogs hump dominance it is generally with other dogs and usually around the head or back and the red rocket generally doesn't come out but apparently I'm not a strong enough leader
> 
> As for smell. I had one dog who liked dead things, I've had dogs who liked to roll in horse poop, and one who jumped up and knocked a fly trap over to get the fly scent on her. I've had several who have played with skunks. I know the difference between normal stinky dogs and an intact male dog who IMO many have a distinctive scent that I do not like.


I (personally) do not allow humping of any kind. So yes, I think it is disrespectful of the dog to do this in your presence and it feeds his ego. For the same reason I don't allow them to hump objects. My experience is that just the young males do it.
What do you mean by the "yucky stuff"? Penis or semen? If that's the case you have let him go on too long and should have blocked his humping right away (time out on leash works great).
Neutering may make training easier but you can accomplish the same with more intense training with intact dogs (if needed). I think neutering is overrated when it comes to training issues.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

RocketDog said:


> Wow. Just keeps on going.....


LOL! Yep. Poor Alanna. She isn't even getting this little puppy. I hope she comes back, when she finds a GSD to adopt.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

wolfy dog said:


> I (personally) do not allow humping of any kind. So yes, I think it is disrespectful of the dog to do this in your presence and it feeds his ego.
> 
> Neutering may make training easier but you can accomplish the same with more intense training with intact dogs (if needed). I think neutering is overrated when it comes to training issues.


Wow Yawn... I'm so over this conversation. My dogs are trained to my satisfaction. I have no desire to intensely train a butt head hormonal puppy not to hump things when I can take him to the vet and snip
all done. 

You follow your path I'll follow mine. I probably don't use the same dog food as you either want to argue about that next?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Alanna - thank you for the update! 

I am going to lock this, because it has run it's course, then probably get 18 different PMs complaining that I locked it. 

BUT - please, please come back and post about the dog you do get. There is a general behavior or a general rescue section to get some good basic info. 

Thanks -
Jean 
Admin


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