# I need serious opinions please..



## dgon27 (Mar 12, 2008)

I have a:
2.5 yr old female GSD
4.5 month old male GSD (my girls pup)
3 yr old Dachshund 

Long story short,
My 4.5 month old male GSD has already:

Attacked my Dachshund at home in our backyard. No damage.

Attacked a 10 week old puppy. He was on a line and the puppy got out of his pen and walked up to my dog. The puppy wasn't hurt. Thank GOD.

Has showed aggression towards a boxer, lab and a husky while on leash. I corrected him, so there was no attack. He pretty much growls at every dog that gets near him.

Now for the human encounters:
A 20 something year old girl walked up and asked if she could say hello to my puppy. I said sure. Well, she came within 1 ft of him with her hand down for him to smell and then he starts barking at her.

A teenage boy was petting his head and he snapped at him.

He want nothing to do with anyone but my wife and I.

Bottom line is I love this guy so much, but I don't trust him at all. I take him to my parent’s house and all I can think of is I hope he doesn’t bite them. My trainer told me that he is way too sharp and this guy is always going to be a risk.

My question is, should I give him back to the breeder? Please be honest. Is it worth the risk?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

How do you correct your dog when he does these things?

How old was the puppy when you got him?


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

he's 4.5 months old and already doing this?! To me he definitely doesnt sound like pet quality and i agree that he does sound like a risk. Definitely not an animal i would ever have around kids if his behavorior is already like that at such a young age. I mean you could try training and see if he grows out of it but the bigger he gets, often times if training doesnt help, the behavior only gets worse. how has he been socialized? Extensively? or spareingly? Get a second or third opinion from other trainers. Especially trainers who have experience with the breed. Really it depends on what you're willing and able to handle IMO. Personally, myself with a 2 year old and a 1 year old, i wouldnt take the chance. He may eventually be good with all family but as an adult he would be too much of a risk to take out of the house without a very sturdy leash and a muzzle on to prevent him from biting when he did decide to lunge at someone. and no vet would be willing to work with a dog that is aggressive towards what i'm guessing is everyone he comes in contact with except for you and your wife. They work with sick and injured and nervous animals often but even an overnight stay would be considered too much of a risk if that need ever came up. not to mention as he grows, and the problem isnt resolved (or even if it were, he wouldnt be totally trustworthy) thats a serious issue you have on your hands because he could very possibly become a danger to yourself or your wife as well. Then you add in the breed prejudice GSDs have from some people and he really wouldnt be a good example. someone may be able to handle him as he grows but they would have to have some serious experience with dogs such as himself. There is also the possibility that he's just a bad egg of the bunch. It happens despite what people want to believe. We'd all love to blame the handlers for the dogs bad behavior and 99% of the time we're right in blaming the handler but that 1% no matter what, can still just be a bad dog. I'm sorry you're having difficulty with him but after reading your post, i have to agree with your trainer and that he's always going to be a risk.


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## dgon27 (Mar 12, 2008)

I correct hime with a quick tug on his leather lead / choke chain, say NO! and make him lay down.

I have had him since birth. All his littermater left at the age of 8 weeks.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Have you heard from the rest of the litter, are they having issues?

If you have had him since birth, are you the breeder? How would you give him back to the breeder?

I do not like the use of the choke chain here, the quick tug is correct for a leash correction, but at 4.5 months, I generally use a flat collar or a martingale. What I am concerned about that if he is facing something scarey and he makes a response/reaction to the scarey thing -- ie. barking at the 20 year old girl. And you correct with leash pop and saying NO. Then that socialization experience he just got was see something scarey, bark (hey go away!), OUCH!, Yes that WAS scarey! 

And soon he will go directly to snap or even to bite when he is scared because he is being taught not to bark. 

How to make a dog not bark at a threatening situation is to get him used to more and more situations. Get him near but not overwhelming. I will take puppies to a pet store or in front of a supermarket and not let ANYONE touch them. This is just to get them used to people being around. When they are comfortable with that, THEN I will start to let some of the people pet them -- not the lady with two dogs and three kids, sorry she has too much going on. 

I do not like the idea of giving up on a 4.5 month old puppy. If you are the breeder of this litter, are you thinking of dumping him or euthanizing him? I think that if you give him up to ANYONE, that is what you need to worry about. Unless you give him to someone who can work with him, whoever you give him to, will most likely drop him off, or take him to a one way visit to the wood or vet. So be very careful if you care about this puppy. 

It is possible that you have a weak nerved puppy. It is also possible that you have a puppy that needs a change in leadership style. Check out Nothing in Life is Free (NILIF) and see if that might work for you. Also, you might do better if you try to tire the pup out mentally as well as physically before taking him out on socialization experiences. Have you thought of what you want to do with the pup down the line, hiking, herding, agility, schutzhund, etc.? 

If you did not breed this litter, have you contacted the breeder and asked advice from the breeder?


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

dgon27 said:


> I correct hime with a quick tug on his leather lead / choke chain, say NO! and make him lay down. I have had him since birth. All his littermater left at the age of 8 weeks.


Are you sure you aren't teaching him that when people and other dogs are around bad things happen??

I can't understand why you would use a choke chain on such a young puppy. Has he always been a handful?


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## dgon27 (Mar 12, 2008)

selzer said:


> Have you heard from the rest of the litter, are they having issues?
> 
> I know 2 of the females won something at the recent seiger show in malibu.
> 
> ...


The breeder said if needed she will take him.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

You co-own the bitch, and raised the litter. 

I don't get you being a foster at all. Sorry. Foster and adopt go for people rescuing dogs from shelters or puppy mills. 

If you co-own the bitch and raised the litter, and sent the puppies to their new homes at eight weeks, then you are the breeder or co-breeder if you like. 

It is bad enough that the PETA people and the HSUS people make out breeders to be bad, breeders have no business buying into that. 

Fostering a litter, is when someone drops off a pregnant bitch to a rescue or shelter. 

If you bought this bitch already bred, then you are the bitch's owner, and the owner of the litter -- maybe not technically the breeder of the litter, but definitely not a foster. 

If you are in touch with, in relationship with the breeder of the bitch, then it is not a rescue/foster situation.

Ok, rant over. 

This puppy is YOUR responsibility. If you had anything to do with the breeding of your 2.5 year old bitch, the puppy is your responsibility. If you are 100% certain your puppy will be better off with your partner, then do what is best for your puppy. My opinion is that you raised this puppy from birth, behavioral issues, weak nerves, poor socialization is YOUR responsibility. 

If you want to be a breeder, then you should start with this puppy in taking responsibility and becoming the expert in behavior and training. Sending it to your partner to fix or deal with or put down is not taking reponsibilty for it. You will learn a whole lot from a tough pup than you will from a compliant easy pup. And if you want to be a breeder, than you NEED to know a lot about behavior and training and management and leadership. Start here.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

selzer said:


> You co-own the bitch, and raised the litter.
> 
> I don't get you being a foster at all. Sorry. Foster and adopt go for people rescuing dogs from shelters or puppy mills.
> 
> ...


 
Well said.


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## dgon27 (Mar 12, 2008)

You co-own the bitch, and raised the litter. 

I don't get you being a foster at all. Sorry. Foster and adopt go for people rescuing dogs from shelters or puppy mills. 

Maybe this will help you understand. The Breeder calls it a "Foster Owenrship Program" Here is a portion of the deal or whatever you would like to call it.
The family may choose to have the litter at their house or have us take the female to have the litter with us. All cost of breeding are covered, if the family chooses to keep the litter at their home, they are supplied with any and all required mateirals. For their time, effort and costs families are given a precentage of each litter profit(litter profit minus our cost). The female will retire at 6-8.5 years old. The female is then spayed and Ownership is then transferred to the foster owner.

If you co-own the bitch and raised the litter, and sent the puppies to their new homes at eight weeks, then you are the breeder or co-breeder if you like. 

Ok co-breeder. Does it really matter. I started this post for advice. AKA seek counsel because I don't know what to do.


It is bad enough that the PETA people and the HSUS people make out breeders to be bad, breeders have no business buying into that. 


Fostering a litter, is when someone drops off a pregnant bitch to a rescue or shelter. 

If you bought this bitch already bred, then you are the bitch's owner, and the owner of the litter -- maybe not technically the breeder of the litter, but definitely not a foster. 

If you are in touch with, in relationship with the breeder of the bitch, then it is not a rescue/foster situation.

Ok, rant over. 

Thanks

This puppy is YOUR responsibility. If you had anything to do with the breeding of your 2.5 year old bitch, the puppy is your responsibility. If you are 100% certain your puppy will be better off with your partner, then do what is best for your puppy. My opinion is that you raised this puppy from birth, behavioral issues, weak nerves, poor socialization is YOUR responsibility. 

I know my puppy is my responsibility. That is why I am asking for help, opinions, advise. Do you think it is an easy decision to make. Have you had a puppy behave like this? If so, please tell...

If you want to be a breeder, then you should start with this puppy in taking responsibility and becoming the expert in behavior and training. Sending it to your partner to fix or deal with or put down is not taking reponsibilty for it. You will learn a whole lot from a tough pup than you will from a compliant easy pup. And if you want to be a breeder, than you NEED to know a lot about behavior and training and management and leadership. Start here


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

dgon21- Selzer gave you good advice. Yes, you are the breeder or co-breeder because you are recieving profit from it. You are not a foster.


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## dgon27 (Mar 12, 2008)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> dgon21- Selzer gave you good advice. Yes, you are the breeder or co-breeder because you are recieving profit from it. You are not a foster.


Ok. I am not a foster. 

Just a bit confused. I love my puppy, but not sure if my lack of experience in behavior and training is right for this guy. According to the response from Selzer, I am not doing right with the choke chain and confusing the guy "teaching him not to bark" as you agreed.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

dgon27 said:


> Ok. I am not a foster.
> 
> Just a bit confused. I love my puppy, but not sure if my lack of experience in behavior and training is right for this guy. According to the response from Selzer, I am not doing right with the choke chain and confusing the guy "teaching him not to bark" as you agreed.


There are indeed better ways to train dog not to bark instead of using the choke chain. Do you want him not to bark at all? Hopefully, otherswill chime in and offer some training advice.


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## eyezik (Apr 22, 2010)

Have you taken him to a vet for an overall check up lately? This type of problem may be more than just behavior. 

Physical and mental stimulation are a must. Exercise of the body and mind will help your pup immensely. Nothing too strenuous as far as the physical goes, hes still young and repetitive stress injury is all the more possible as well as exhaustion. 

How often do you socialize your pup and how?

Any formal obedience training yet? The sooner that starts, the better. It does more than just train your dog, it trains YOU and helps build a bond between you and your pup. Your pup needs to trust you and look to you for guidance when he doesn't know what to expect. 

The thing with corrections is that they have to be timed just right, otherwise the pup may begin to become confused as to whats good or bad etc. A short stiff tug on a flat collar should be fine with a stern assertive "no." 

Its said all the time when training a pup "set your pup up for success." I couldn't agree more. Kind of lure them into doing what you want so its difficult if not impossible for them to fail. Positive reinforcement goes a long way, find positive things and rewards in all situations. 

Implement Nothing in Life is Free 

Also, socialize socialize socialize. Expose your pup to new places, smells, sights, and people as much as possible. If your pup is displaying anxiety or fear as a result of these new things, back off. Ease him into things. Start across the street if you have to and slowly but surely bring him into the new situation. Reward any positive behavior that occurs while socializing that way your pup begins to realize the "correct" way to behave in these situations. 

Make everything as fun and rewarding as possible. Socialize, exercise, and exposure will go a long way.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Yes check with a vet something may be medically wrong with the dog and seek a trainer!


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

basically with a dog like this, you need to make all his decisions for him, sounds like he is fearful/sharp, etc...........A Huge commitment in taking responsibility for this dog, keeping him safe.......conditioning can help, but you will probably never be able to trust him in alot of situations.........extensive Obedience can help, along with slow and controlled interactions..........alot of people just don't have the patience or resources to address and work with this issue..........so, i would think long and hard about keeping the dog..........


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

What debbie said ^^. 

At this point, if you think you won't be able to handle/work with this puppy, I would give him/her back to the breeder. Waiting will only make the problems worse. 

I am aware of the fostering programs some breeders have. They are not co owned, 'breeders'. The breeders normally foster out a bitch, the foster people basically own the dog after the breeder has bred some litters out of them, (or not depending on hip/elbow) or when they reach a certain age. 

Good luck, it sounds like you have your work cut out for you


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## ba1614 (Feb 17, 2010)

Considering the age of the kids in the family, I too would seriously consider giving this puppy to the breeder. 
If you are going to keep him I would be getting him checked by a vet and seek out some very good, specialized training. 

You have a difficult decision to make, good luck.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

I agree with others it's very confusing to see 'real' aggression from such a young puppy. So, without actually seeing your pup and the interactions, it's hard to know what's actually going on.

Along with how you are reacting and is it contributing to the problem, making it worse, or wouldn't matter who had the other end of the leash.

Love to see a video of one of these meetings, showing you and the pup before, during and after....

This is my 4 month old GSD doing one of the TONS of socialization trips we went thru her first year (still?). Out all day to bore her out of her GOURD and make things matter of fact and not CRAZY EXCITING!!!!!!! 

The real point of the video for you is not how my dog is behaving in particular, but for YOU to watch thru until minute 2:13 when we meet a slightly younger pup who is NOT greeting us appropriately.

What you need to watch is EVERYTHING! How calm I am with my dog. How my pup IS acting 'polite' and appropriate. How the OTHER pup is NOT acting appropriate and barking/lunging. More importantly.................pay attention................this if vital to 'teach' the other puppy...............what is the girl doing with the puppy when it's barking and lunging and crazy?

And listen to my ramblings to the girl to 'teach' the girl. I ask if her dog is mean or something (knowing the answer was no but trying to calm the girl, stop the girl, and STOP her CONTRIBUTING TO THE PROBLEMS INSTEAD OF HELPING). 

At around minute 2:40 listen to all the girl is doing/saying and is it helping when she's using the leash to try to 'control' the puppy? Is the puppy even listening to her?





 
This is another good explaination:





 
This is a good video 





 
If what you are seeing is 'real' aggression from a 4 month old puppy, with no medical, insecurity, or mis-diagnosis going on.... then I'd take him back to the breeder in a second for them to work thru it.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

dgon27 said:


> I have a:
> 2.5 yr old female GSD
> 4.5 month old male GSD (my girls pup)
> 3 yr old Dachshund
> ...


ARE YOU CLICKER TRAINING? 

As usual, this is an ideal way to work a puppy/dog THRU a behavior in a non-threatening and teaching way.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I'm sorry you are going through this Danny, I know it must be heart-wrenching to make this kind of decision - keeping him or giving him back, it is a choice between one heart break or another. 

My (limited) view and thoughts: NOT normal for a puppy this age to act out this way. If a puppy is fearful, most puppies would be in avoidance, not in attack mode. If he acts out in aggression when unsure now, I hate to think how he will be when he gets older, unless . . . 

As debbiebrown said, you can devote TONS of time and energy to socialization, training, counter-conditioning, and have him 100% under control, 100% of the time. Can you, and your wife see yourself as doing this? And even then, he may never really be trust-worthy. 

In my situation - being single and not having any children, and not having friends with young children - I would keep him and work with him, because he is my puppy - 

But in your situation, with other dogs and kids and a busy (normal) life, reality is different. So you can either make the (life-long) commitment to really work with this pup and ALWAYS have this dog under control (ALWAYS, as in, never off leash, never loose in the house when other people or dogs are around, etc), or send him back. 

As for correcting him - hard to say what is best as it is better to see what is going on - but if pup is acting out of fear (probably, but there is a natural tendency for him to react in aggression, and think/evaluate the situation after he has snapped), then I would work on increasing his confidence, and coming down on him hard each time he barks at something would be counter-productive. I would very gradually expose him to things that make him react from a distance, and reward/praise for NOT reacting, then leave! Don't push him past his threshold. This would take a lot of time and consistency and work to build him up like this.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

I very much suspect that what you are seeing from this puppy with strange people/dogs is fear based. Using old fashion training methods based on collar corrections is not going to help him.

I would acclimate him to a head collar (not a fan of them for pulling but they can work great for dogs with problems) to give you greater control over him without having to use force. Then change your approach to dealing with things which make him reactive. Instead of correcting him once he starts to react, take super good treats and whenever he so much as sees something that normal makes him reactive, he gets super good treats. These treats should be extra special and something he only gets when he sees strange people/dogs. For now keep him a good distance from the people/dogs and gradually work your way closer. Absolutely do not have strangers attempt to pet him right now if that is very likely to cause him to react. You want to lessen his chances of reacting (which is for him giving him practice doing what you don't want him to do and setting him up to do it more in the future), while changing the picture of what strangers mean. Right now strangers mean that he is going to feel pressure to interact with them even if he doesn't want to. And that you are going to become aggressive to him if he reacts in a way that is normal and natural for dogs who are feeling uncomfortable.

He can only ever behave like a dog, he has no other options. Dogs who are uncomfortable put on threat displays of raising hackles, barking and growling and if pushed too much, may snap or even bite. The more often he does this, the more often he is going to do it in the future. The more times people back away when he does it, the more he is learning that it is an effective way to get scary people away from him. 

With your Doxie, it is honestly extremely hard to say what happened. You say there was an "attack" but neither dog was injured. So what exactly happened? Often people mistake normal dog interactions for aggression.

How much socialization has your puppy gotten? How many strangers has he met since he was 3 or so weeks old? How many places have you taken him since he's had his first vaccine? How many strange dogs has he been around? Did you enroll him in puppy class? What is his mother like? Father? Siblings?


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

My first German Shepherd would hackle, bark, and snap at people and other dogs from about 4-6 months on. It is what got me interested in really training my dog. Training him on a regular basis did wonders! He even got his BH, and won several of his Rally classes.

But you have to be willing to manage and TRAIN. 

One of the biggest things Kenju taught me was to quit pushing encounters. If someone says "can I pet your dog?" my answer was always "no." I never expected him to allow fur-to-fur interactions with other animals. He was afraid, so I became his protector. At the same time, I expected him to behave when out. At the park, he was expected to sit while I chatted with someone. But he learned that sitting there was OK, because I was not going to allow Fluffy or Mrs. Smith or anything to mess with him.

He became a super dog, and even now is a favorite at the vet's office. (still don't trust him around strange dogs though).


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

It sounds to me like your puppy is going through a fear stage. I agree with Diane in that if you feel you are out of your league with managing him and helping him get through it then you should return him to the breeder. There is no shame in not having the experience to help a fearful dog and doing what you think is best for him. 

Some books you may want to read are Feisty Fido and The Other End of the Leash. Both books were a great help to me in managing Jax's fears and helping her. AgileGSD gave great advice on how to acclimate him to strangers. Both these books go into greater detail along the same train of thought.

Just a note from my experience...correcting Jax when she is being reactive is a trainwreck. Jerking on her leash/collar only ramps her up. Quite often, a dog will react negatively to a collar that has tightened. I take her away from the situation and return when she is calmed down. I block the other dog from getting to her. I block her line of sight so she can't see what she is reacting to (sometimes that is quite a dance).

If it's possible, I would take him somewhere that you can just sit and watch people and dogs. He can watch, he can't react. Don't let anyone near him, just let him watch. I would also get him around dogs that you can trust not to hurt him so he can build confidence.


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## dgon27 (Mar 12, 2008)

debbiebrown said:


> basically with a dog like this, you need to make all his decisions for him, sounds like he is fearful/sharp, etc...........A Huge commitment in taking responsibility for this dog, keeping him safe.......conditioning can help, but you will probably never be able to trust him in alot of situations.........extensive Obedience can help, along with slow and controlled interactions..........alot of people just don't have the patience or resources to address and work with this issue..........so, i would think long and hard about keeping the dog..........


Thanks debbiebrown. I think the big thing for me is that I will probably never be able to trust him. I just cannot imagine something happening. I have been taking him to OB training 3x a week. He has been doing good, but the aggression stuff is not changing for the better. It seems impossible to call the breeder and ask her to take him. 

Thanks for your help


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## dgon27 (Mar 12, 2008)

JakodaCD OA said:


> What debbie said ^^.
> 
> At this point, if you think you won't be able to handle/work with this puppy, I would give him/her back to the breeder. Waiting will only make the problems worse.
> 
> ...


JakodaCD, Thank You! Finally someone gets the "fostering"


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

How are the other puppies doing? I would call the other owners and see how the pups are behaving.

If they are also having issues then it may be one of two things - either the bitch or sire has poor temperament (and should not be bred again) or the pups weren't socialized enough as babies (and you shouldn't whelp and raise a litter again - not without alot of help). Not trying to be critical - just honest.

If this pup is the only one with these behaviors it MAY be that he is either wired wrong (something physiologically wrong with him) or you didn't get him out and socialize him enough as a youngster (after 8 weeks of age). Again, not trying to be critical - just honest.

How was he with his littermates? Was he the boss of the pack or the bottom boy? When did these behaviors start?

With intensive training you could manage his behaviors but I don't know if you could 100% trust him.


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## dgon27 (Mar 12, 2008)

Hi, this is Danny's wife. Tessa the bitch (mom) is a great dog. She's been doing great with her obedience training and has come a long way. She has never shown aggression towards people or animals. I don't know anything about the sire as he was picked by the (co) owned breeder. We had no say. I did speak with another person who purchased the other male pup and he says he has some aggression but no biting or attack like situations. He does act rough with his other dog but owner says he stops it before it gets to the point of attack. Owner also says he's fine around other people, he likes to nibble but not bite. His son has a small dog he brings over and the male plays "rough" but does not act like he's going to hurt him. We are very sad about this whole situation and it's VERY difficult to make a decision as we don't want to feel like we failed Bode. Part of me says let's try and really work hard with him and the other part says I can't risk the chance of him biting a neighbor or worse a child. I've read every response to Danny's question and appreciate everyone's input and yes it's hard without knowing Bode as we do. As I type I'm looking at him sleeping and calm. He's got such a personality! Downside, temperment issues. One thing I have noticed is that he is a restless sleeper and breathes hard while slleeping. Is this normal? I'm heartbroken because I know how bad my husband wanted a male and how attached he's become to Bode. Breaks my heart.


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## Gsdldy (May 7, 2010)

You say you've been takeing him to Obediance classes, is this a group class or one on one with the trainer? I would really suggest getting him into some puppy classes or group classes as this would help alot with the socialization with dogs and people. 

I have a bitch that I got at 8 months that had no socialization and was agressive with strangers but it was all fear based. What I did was have friends/family etc that the dog doesnt know meet me somewhere on neutral ground.I gave them a bag of dog treats and I would tell them not to talk to or look at the dog or interact with her, but when she was calm or ignored the person they would toss a treat to her. BUT only toss it when she was in a calm state and acting acceptably, honestly it didnt take long and she started thinking everyone she saw carried treats and was happy to see new people comeing. Now I can take her out anywhere with no problem and she LOVES people. Also if i was out walking I would rope my daughter into it, she woudl walk ahead and if someone seemed interested in the dogs she give them a couple treats and ask them to toss them to the dog, I would have her explain that the dog was in training and we were trying to show it that people are a good thing and also ask them not to try to pet the dog or look her in the eyes so she didnt feel intimidated.. Just some suggestions.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

I'm still not clear if this is real aggression or just totally painful and inappropriate behavior from a pup. I know ALL my GSD puppies bit me and drew blood while I was dealing with them. And it was ALWAYS a bite inhibition thing (not aggression even if I was dripping blood).

I also know that all my GSD's play extremely rough and loud and can be overwhelming with the growling/biting/jumping up on everyone. But it's also not agression though I may have just been knocked down and over.


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## Gsdldy (May 7, 2010)

Same here Maggie, Its hard to picture a pup that young being out and out agressive. I think its either fear based or the owners may be reading the dog wrong. Either way it can be worked through with a little time an patience if they want to put it into the dog, BUT if they dont want to put the time in then I'd suggest rehomeing to someone who can.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Any chance you could videotape some of his behavior and post it here? Video is MUCH better for determining if a dog is aggressive or fearful.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Gsdldy said:


> BUT if they dont want to put the time in then I'd suggest rehomeing to someone who can.


DGON27, Tell us about this breeder? This is important in the decision. Is this someone you know very well, a friend? Is it someone who does this "foster" program with many many bitches?

The reason I ask is that if the dog has a problem and you give it to this person, you should know her very very well. Because if this person is using a foster program to produce lots of puppies, then I am afraid that when you give the puppy to her, she will euthanize the puppy. 

Programs like this make money if the puppies are sold at eight weeks, lots of puppies, and they are not putting any more time or energy into the litter beyond that. Be careful with your decision to give this dog back.

There is no reason why everyone in the universe has to be able to touch this puppy. Put up a nice kennel for him, and when you have guests over, put him in his kennel, and do not worry about it -- that is management. 

Working with the dog to get him over this, does entail turning your friends into treat machines. And I agree, start with them ignoring the puppy and not looking at the puppy, and when the pup is calm, have them drop a treat. 

Take it to classes, Just say no to questionable petters, and train, exercise, and learn NILIF.

What are your plans for the bitch? Does the breeder have a contract with you to produce a number of litters? If so, please stick around and check out the information in the breeding section below on ways to test puppies, socialize puppies, etc. If it is in a contract to breed a number of times, you may have no choice in the matter. But please try to take the time between now and the next breeding to learn about socialization and the stages of development.

Working with this puppy WILL teach you more than an easy puppy. 

Good luck. 

(It is still not fostering, even if they call it fostering, people do not foster for financial gain. This may be a program by someone who wants their bitches to have a better life and more attention than they would living with the breeder. It may be someone supplying puppies to pet stores. We do not know. It does not sound like your bitch has titles in either conformation or obedience or schutzhund or herding or anything. That suggests that the breeding program is simply to produce puppies for cash. If that is the case, then telling her that a puppy has poor temperament and it may be genetic will not matter even a little bit, when it comes to future breeding decisions.)

Please consider what might happen to this puppy if you give it to the breeder. The breeder did not hold this puppy in the first minutes of life, cutting of the cord, drying it off, weighing it, and watching it take its first breath and seeing it nurse, and jerk and twitch while it slept in a pile. She does not have the emotional investment in this pup that you do.


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## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

I am by far no expert here but this sounds allot like my female we purchased many years ago from a pet store. I am sure she was a puppy mill dog as her attitude was not normal. I took her to OB several times in her life and worked with her all the time.

She bit 2 of our friends and we almost always had to put her away when people came. She was good to us and other dogs but was what I would call insecure and that is why the problems. Kaycee lived with us until this past winter when we had to put her down at the age of 12.

I took responsibility for this dog and did all I could but it only helped some. This sounds to me like (sorry to say this) a complicated puppy mill and bad breeding. It is not normal for a pup that young to be so aggressive unless it has been traumatized in some way or bad breeding.

All I can offer is keep up the OB and find someone who deals with this type of bad attitude. Realize that there may be a 50% chance of bringing this pup around and you may always have to take precautions.

How are the puppies parents?


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## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

Something I just thought of, have you had the vet check him over to be sure there is nothing medically wrong?


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

dgon27 said:


> We are very sad about this whole situation and it's VERY difficult to make a decision as we don't want to feel like we failed Bode. Part of me says let's try and really work hard with him and the other part says I can't risk the chance of him biting a neighbor or worse a child.


 Any dog has the chance of biting or showing aggression in some circumstances. Growling, barking, threatening, snapping and even biting are all in the realm of normal dog communication. It is what dogs do when they are uncomfortable. Not acceptable to humans but normal for dogs none the less.

I think too often people assume dogs are either "good" or "bad" and there isn't much you can do. This dog is "good" with kids but this one isn't. This one is "bad" about strangers but that one isn't. It is true that you can't control genetics and dogs will have a tendency towards certain behaviors and genetically differing thresholds. However, a HUGE factor in having a "good" dog is proper early training, socialization and building a good relationship with the dog.

My first dog was fearful and at times could tend towards fear aggression. He was a Dobe mix I got from the pound as a puppy when I was 11 years old. My dad came home the first day and my puppy hide behind the couch from him for quite awhile. He would hackle and bark at strangers and didn't like anyone he didn't know to try to touch him. I was 11 and fairly clueless that these were potentially serious behavior concerns. I joined a 4H dog training club when the puppy was 5 months old. He hide behind me and/or barked when people tried to touch him. IMO he was a dog who was genetically set up to be fearful and likely didn't have an ideal start to life before I got him at 8 weeks. 

I took that dog_ everywhere _with me. We went on walks every day, he visited friends with me, he went on errands with us, we went to training class weekly. I trained him a lot at home - built jumps, taught him to walk across a narrow benc (I thought I invented agility LOL), played with a flirt pole (thought I invented that too LOL), taught him scent games and lots of tricks. I stuck with the training class, even though at our yearly graduation for the first two years we failed our test because he wouldn't stand for exam. I didn't worry much about the fear issues, just accepted that was just how he was. I badly wanted a dog of my own before I got him and was really into training and this was the dog I had. 

Our third year in 4H, we not only qualified at our yearly graduation but won first place in Novice obedience and got to go to the state fair. After that third year, I had a changed dog. No one who met him after he was three could believe that he used to be shy and reactive. When we moved, he was the dog the little kids in the neighborhood all asked to see because he knew the best tricks ("Can you bring out the dog that counts?" they'd ask). I can picture myself in my mind with that dog our first night of training class. My dog trainer mind cringes at the idea of a dog like him with an 11 year old kid but it serves a good reminder to not be so judgmental. Sometimes it's easier to work through problems when you don't obsess over them and focus on the important stuff. Never say never 

I am still curious about the socialization and training that Bode has received so far. What sort of training methods are you using? What are you doing when he acts "aggressively"? How many strange people has he interacted with since he was a young puppy? How many places does he go a week? When did you notice the very first signs of this problem?


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## dgon27 (Mar 12, 2008)

Wow, so many questions to answer. I hope I get em all.

The breeder in my non-expert opinion is good to go. No puppy mill, and she is involved with Seiger shows and Schutzund. The program that we agreed to with her was 2 - 3 litters max and then i will get full ownership. She said she very rarely does this program. Actually only a couple times. I contacted her when she was debating whether to keep Tessa (mom) or not.

Socialization, he has been going to our trainers property since he was about 2.5 months old. He has seen multiple people in and out of our home. I've been doing basic ob with him. Heel, sit, stay and stuff like that.

Fear Aggression - If it was fear aggression, wouldn't he show signs of fear? Like cowering? He seem very confident when he reacts. When a dog comes up to him, he seems to have major confidence. Like get a way from me or else. Growl and if not stopped, bite.

Puppies parents - I have the mom. She is awesome. No issues at all. 









This is puppy at about 2.5 months.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Its just scary and sad to hear a puppy of such a young age having aggression problems. What would cause this?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

No, they won't necessarily show signs of fear in fear aggression. It's a matter of I'll get you before you get me. 

Think of it this way. You are scared of a person coming at you. If you go on the offensive, you may be able to stop them from hurting you. So you throw on your Cape of False Bravado and start yelling and throwing punches. The person thinks you are crazy so they run away. So next time you do it just a little quicker because it worked so well the first time.

Has he ever, at any time, been attacked? Are you always with him at the trainers? 

Jax has fear aggression. I never know what will really set her off. She's much better with exposure to good dogs but a golden set her off this past weekend. To me that dog appeared to be ignoring her. But there could have been a subtle sign where he/she was tensing, she took it as a sign of possible attack and I didn't catch it.

It is very rare for a 4.5 mth old puppy to show true aggression. If he is showing true aggression then there is probably something wrong with him. I would find a good vet and get a full physical. And I would find a good behaviorist to evaluate him. Not a trainer...a behaviorist. There is a difference.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Fear aggression at 4.5 months old is sad.=(

There is a Collie Mix at my shelter who has some fear issues, I don't know for sure if its fear aggression, but she was brought back after being adopted because she didn't get along with the other dog in the household.


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## dgon27 (Mar 12, 2008)

Jax08 said:


> No, they won't necessarily show signs of fear in fear aggression. It's a matter of I'll get you before you get me.
> 
> Think of it this way. You are scared of a person coming at you. If you go on the offensive, you may be able to stop them from hurting you. So you throw on your Cape of False Bravado and start yelling and throwing punches. The person thinks you are crazy so they run away. So next time you do it just a little quicker because it worked so well the first time.
> 
> ...


 
He has never been attacked and I am with him 100% of the time.
I am in Southern California. Any reccomendations for a behavioralist?


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## Gsdldy (May 7, 2010)

Seeing people comeing and going at your trainers is not really a lot of socialization. I seriously recomend for you to get him into a group class, you will see the different dinamics there and it helps to desensatise your dog as well as socialize.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

dgon27 said:


> Socialization, he has been going to our trainers property since he was about 2.5 months old. He has seen multiple people in and out of our home. I've been doing basic ob with him. Heel, sit, stay and stuff like that.


 By 5 months old he should have been exposed to hundreds of strange people. He should be going everywhere possible with you - walks around the neighborhood, running errands, friends houses, festivals, classes, shows, etc, etc, etc. At 3 months old, my last puppy went on a road trip with us. 12+ hour drive there and back, multiple days in a strange house with strange people/dogs, multiple days at a big dog show, lots of walking in strange places, learning to be calm in the car, sleep in strange places and be adaptable. She went to work with me every day and met clients there all day long. I had her in my puppy class that I teach in my yard (strange people/dogs visiting her place) and took her to puppy class and conformation class elsewhere. We went on walks in the park, lots of trips to the local petstores and visiting friend's houses, either for the day or overnight.

Herding breed dogs do best with owners who can and are willing to provide this sort of socialization. In general, they are "wired" to be suspicious of the unknown and not as naturally adaptable as some other breeds. Lots of socialization can help to counteract those natural tendencies. They also thrive on lots of early learning and relationship building type activities. 

This is a great resource for info on puppy raising: Raising A Puppy | Dog Star Daily



dgon27 said:


> Fear Aggression - If it was fear aggression, wouldn't he show signs of fear? Like cowering? He seem very confident when he reacts. When a dog comes up to him, he seems to have major confidence. Like get a way from me or else. Growl and if not stopped, bite.


 Most aggression such as what you are describing is fear based. Almost all "aggression" in young puppies is fear based. Fear aggressive dogs growl, lunge, snap, growl and bite, so those things are not necessarily signs of confidence.


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## Dexter (Jul 25, 2010)

i have to admit some people over react way to much ... the question is '' should i keep the dog or if the dog may stay the same and being a risk ''

forget the breeding part ... i would say the dog is pretty young and it probly can be corrected with more social activity .. imo your correcton is ok and the chocke chain is ok for that kind of behavior . dont forget to tell your dog hes a good boy when hes doing good stuff ... im not a fan of 100% positive reinforcement , correction is a good way to train too .. but try to balance it. so yea , i would keep the dog , will just need more time than another one ...


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Dexter said:


> forget the breeding part ... i would say the dog is pretty young and it probly can be corrected with more social activity .. imo your correcton is ok and the chocke chain is ok for that kind of behavior . dont forget to tell your dog hes a good boy when hes doing good stuff ... im not a fan of 100% positive reinforcement , correction is a good way to train too .. but try to balance it. so yea , i would keep the dog , will just need more time than another one ...


 I agree that given the age, the behavior can change. I strongly disagree that correction is the way to change it though. It obviously doesn't seem to be working since the dog is getting increasingly worse, not better.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

ok here's my 2 cents on what I would do with, since I've "been there done that" sort of Since I DO think it's fear based. Fear based agression does not necessarily mean a dog who is going to turn tail and run, they will go into "i'm gonna get you before you get me" mode.

Definately out into the big wide world as much as possible,,If you haven't tried clicker training with him, I would starting at home and using the clicker to reward for GOOD behaviors vs 'training' things. Here's hoping he's food motivated??? Get something REALLY good, used only as rewards for GOOD behaviors (my fav is frozen italian meatballs, nuke a few, squeeze out the juice, cut up into small bits).. Make sure you have them on you and he KNOWS it..)

The rules for him in my house (and out in public) would be,,no one pets him (and we are talking people he is unfamiliar with), no one stares at him, he is on total IGNORE from people, as for other dogs(again ones he's unfamiliar with), he is not allowed near them or vice versa. Keep your distance. 

Example, if your out walking him in public, someone asks to pet him,,"sorry he's in training but thank you for asking"...if you stop to talk to someone,,same thing, and have him "sit" by your side,,click/reward for being calm, quiet/obeying what you've asked of him..

I would also take him somewhere, that you can sit off to the sidelines where there are people mingling around, let him take in the scenery. and always click/treat for being calm and behaving..if you can set him with someone you know, that is GREAT practice, have the person toss him treats while totally ignoring him

Dogs like this need alot of one on one, and management, the more you 'do' things like this, the more comfortable he will become. 

My girl is not a fan of strangers petting her or staring her down,,she goes where I go, I do not allow strangers to pet her. If I'm out in public, (which we do alot of at the local factory outlet stores!),,if someone talks to me, she is in a sit at my side, and very content to just "be" there. As for other dogs, she now knows what "leave it" means, and I will throw that in, before we come into contact with other dogs. 

While I don't think harsh corrections will help with the situation,,if he ever 'bit' or 'nipped' someone, I"d be coming down on him like a ton of bricks. 

It's not an easy road, but you probably can get him to a manageable point where he can go out in public, and mind his own business as long as your pro active in anticipating what 'could' happen before it does happen.

Ok done with my novel... He's GORGEOUS by the way


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Dexter said:


> forget the breeding part ... i would say the dog is pretty young and it probly can be corrected with more social activity .. imo your correcton is ok and the chocke chain is ok for that kind of behavior . dont forget to tell your dog hes a good boy when hes doing good stuff ... im not a fan of 100% positive reinforcement , correction is a good way to train too .. but try to balance it. so yea , i would keep the dog , will just need more time than another one ...


Most people that I see commenting on this thread have raised a dog like this so I'd say they do know what they're talking about. 

I have rehabbed fear aggressive dogs before. It takes time, patience and a lot of learning and work on your part. Using physical corrections carries a VERY high risk with these kinds of dogs as it usually amps them up even further and may also take away the cues you need to be able to interrupt a reaction. You need the dog to trust and respect you and not fear you so you want to use positive reinforcement and counter conditioning as the basis of any training and behavioral modification program you use. 

Also, my fear aggressive dog did not look fearful (he ran straight at people with teeth barred) but he was. 

It sounds like you love your puppy very much so keeping him and rehabbing is probably the way to go. Yes you will have to watch him like a hawk but at his age he should come around.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

How old was Tessa when you got her?


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## dgon27 (Mar 12, 2008)

selzer said:


> How old was Tessa when you got her?


4 months


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## celiamarie (Feb 18, 2006)

any chance on getting a video of Bode soon?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

dgon27 said:


> 4 months


I was curious because if you got her when she was full grown, then maybe you were not used to normal puppy behavior. 

Still, you puppy COULD still be a normal puppy, your bitch may just have been an easy, compliant pup; while the dog pup has a different personality. Lots of people find females easier to train than males. It sounds like this little guy will need more leadership, training, and socialization than your bitch needed. Work through fear periods with consistancy and stepping back a little and try not to overwhelm the puppy. 

With continued training and patience and persistance, in another nine years, he will be the best dog around.


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## dgon27 (Mar 12, 2008)

So many things to think about. Getting kind of overwhelmed. Thanks for everyones input, help and concerns. Still up in the air.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Are you near here? 
Adler Stein Kennels-German Shepherds-German Shepherd Puppies-Working Line German Shepherds


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## dgon27 (Mar 12, 2008)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Are you near here?
> Adler Stein Kennels-German Shepherds-German Shepherd Puppies-Working Line German Shepherds


A little over 2 hours away.


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## dgon27 (Mar 12, 2008)

Update:
I took my guy to the breeders house today. She said that Bode is not aggressive. Just unsure and a little fearful of all this new stuff. He kind of got punked by an older dog, but it was good for him. He realized that he is not the king. He also got to run around with with one of his littermates. When we first got there, Bode barked at the breeder. She walked right up to him and pet him. He was fine after that. Well, wish us luck. I hope all goes well. Fingers crossed.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

That's wonderful! It's always great when you can have another person evaluate what is going on.


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## dgon27 (Mar 12, 2008)

So, we have decided not to give Bode back to the breeder. I think I kind of always knew it 

Well, here are a few videos of him and his behavior.

Bode at my mom's in the front yard watching my nephew. 09/01/2010




 
Bobe at my house barking at my niece while in his pen. 09/09/10




 
Bode at my house barking at my niece through the glass door. 09/09/10




 




 
Any opinions? Does anyone see any problem I should be worried about? He kind of does the same thing to our other dogs while in his pen.

Thanks


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## Suka (Apr 9, 2004)

I just read up on this thread. From what I see in these videos (very helpful thank you for posting these) and your descriptions, you have a normal five month old German Shepherd that will need a lot of interaction as well as physical and mental exercise. In these videos, all I see is a bored, energetic puppy who is feeling "teased" by what's going on outside of his little pen and on the other side of the door. Your corrections in the first video sound "bored" and like you are giving him "half attention". (I would not personally focus on being corrective for this anyway but I wanted to point out my observation). Can I also tell you right here and now that I personally giggled to myself when he sauces you in the video (barked in response to your first "no") 

I would turn this little pattern of his around with an "active" solution i.e. showing your dog what TO do, rather than trying to correct what he shouldn't be doing. If you were able to truly physically tire him out with a hard game of ball followed up with some rapid fire obedience and *then* put him in the pen, and learn his threshold (length of time you can reasonably expect him to behave in that environment) of being penned up without stimulation and exercise (you can add a stuffed kong or bone that he never ever gets unless he is in his little pen), you could reasonably turn this behavior around. The "fence aggression" display was a show put on entirely for his own benefit when she moved past him. He finally got some fun by focusing on a moving object that he had already been fixating on for quite some time in advance (unfortunately your niece). Your "no's" also were in a string of repeats and all sounded like questions while this was happening too. Only say no once to anything and take action to correct a behavior. Try "absolutely not!" instead of the word "no" and you might feel more commanding. Just an idea. Works for me!

I would take this dog in a shiny second! What a wonderful pup you have there. It's just going to take a lot of investment on your part.


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## liv (Sep 1, 2010)

He's a gorgeous boy and I agree with the above poster - he looks like a bored GSD puppy, and when they're bored, they get frustrated! Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me, if he was really aggressive (not fear aggressive, but I want to eat you aggressive), that ex-pen wouldn't be holding him. 

Don't forget too, that barking releases endorphins, once they get started, they literally get a high from it, so they keep doing it (just ask my neighbor's dogs =(). He also starts getting attention when he barks, which suits his purpose. Kokoda has been known to get frustrated with me when she wants to play and I don't want to, she'll get inches from my face and stare (kind of like he's doing) and then when that gets ignored, she'll let out a big bark - just so I know that she's not happy with me. Needless to say, that doesn't go over well with me (I do giggle on the inside) and it is always dealt with. Then we go outside after it's been long enough for her not to connect the two actions and I run her brains out in the back yard. Have you tried a flirt pole - it's great for draining puppy energy as well as providing an outlet for his prey drive. 

Is your trainer someone who is experienced with the breed? I'm not going to offer any advice on corrections or training, since there are many members here with MUCH more experience than I have and I will leave that to them!

I know it is a TON of work, but I do think that this guy looks like he has a lot of promise. Best of luck!!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

What a nice calm puppy you have. He looks great. I would supervise with kids, but he really does not seem like he wants to attack her, he wants to play with her. Of course you do not want to take chances. Have you tried introducing her to him? Or is she afraid because of his scarey bark? 

If he was seriously aggressive toward her, he would be up and over the x-pen and he would be litterally tearing into the glass door, and maybe even going after the other dog out there out of misplaced aggression. I am not seeing any of that. The pup looks just fine. 

I would continue to take him out all the time and have him meet a lot of people small and large, young and old. Eventually, he will look, think "oh, one of those", and walk away.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

What he is doing with your niece in these vids really looks more like attention seeking barking than anything. How is he when he's loose with her?


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## dgon27 (Mar 12, 2008)

AgileGSD said:


> What he is doing with your niece in these vids really looks more like attention seeking barking than anything. How is he when he's loose with her?


He hasn't been loose with her. This was the first time they have met.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

I think thats the problem- GSD's are dogs who seek companionship. When separated from humans they get antsy, bark, and whine because they want to join in and your not letting him. That is the calmest 5 month old pup I think I've ever seen honestly. Zoe would have hopped the pen and slammed her body against the back door at that age to get to us. Bodey wants to play, meet your niece, and be part of your family not outside looking in


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Yikes! I haven't read all the replies so I will ask if he has been seen by a vet to rule out any pain he may be having. This dog needs a home where he can get lots of attention, love and patience. But most of all he has to respect and trust his owners. Fearful dogs (and mine started out timid) need to KNOW they can trust their owners and that they have a secure home. If you can't spend a LOT of time socializing him then you have a house dog that will need a (strong) crate for the safety of others. I can only speak from my limited experience with a dog that started out fearful who is now the delight of everyone and fully trustworthy with people and dogs. I took her to the park to meet both every day for the past year. I think if I had not done that she would still be timid and could have become dangerous. GSDs often have very strong personalities (but you know that) and it can be very challenging to come up with the resources to help them develop into welcome members of the family and community.


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## dgon27 (Mar 12, 2008)

PaddyD said:


> This dog needs a home where he can get lots of attention, love and patience. But most of all he has to respect and trust his owners. Fearful dogs (and mine started out timid) need to KNOW they can trust their owners and that they have a secure home.


He gets a lot of attention, love and patience. I do beleive he respects us. He is fearful though. At first I thought it was that he was aggressive, but I have come to realize that he just fearful. We will be sitting on the curb, nice and calm. Then 5 people come walking up the street. Bode jumps up, backs up into me, and barks.


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## Mitchell255 (Sep 9, 2010)

Ok... this person doesn't need to be corrected and that's not what the forum is about. This person needs help.... I'm "certainly" no expert but here's my two cents for what it's worth:

I keep reading time and again that these dogs NEED socialization. I have a 4 month old that just TODAY decided that people outside our family are to be feared. She would have nothing to do with my neighbor this morning and when I brought my grandchildren through the door and the 8 yr old grand-daughter chased her, it literally scared the crap out of her. This is brand new behavior.

For other dogs: I would kennel them side by side for awhile. Feed them at the end of the kennel that puts their faces nearest each other as they have the pleasant experience of eating. Also.. walk them together, as a pack to help instill the pack mentality.

For people: put this dog in front of more people, not less. 
Take the dog to PetSmart. To the dog park... to a city park. Get your friends and family to help by visiting your home and letting your dog visit their home. Take her for walks. When anyone approaches and wants to interact with the dog, have a snack for them to hand to the dog. Each interaction needs to be very positive. Do you have a neighbor that would help by coming over occasionally and feeding the dog? 100 new experiences in 100 days.. spend twice as much time praising the dog as you do correcting the dog. The dog wants to be GOOD... show the dog what GOOD looks like. 

Best of luck to you.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Thats because he is young and needs to be socialized more. You can work with him easily on socialization at this age....much harder as they age because it becomes a learned behavior. Let him meet people, bring treats with you everywhere so people can give them to him, and engage him more with new people and places. Especially your niece that poor little pup wants to lick her really bad


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

He could be going through a stage too. 

I made the mistake of putting dogs in front of more people when they were in a fear stage. It could make things more difficult. 

My house is about an hour away from the nearest dog park and pet stores, and there are three of them in close proximity where I can take the dogs in. But it being so far away, I would only go occasionally and then make the most of the situation by going to all three of them. 

Getting the dog groomed, and walking them through store one, then walking them through and hanging out at store 2 and then driving through the drive through enroute to store 3 and hanging out there, well, that is not a good method of socializing. 

More and more people mean some of them will do something really stupid, like the little kid that screamed in my puppy's face, jumped up and ran across the store -- then she barked. We had turned around the corner and I had no idea she was sitting down in front of the rodents. I would have been able to see her if she was standing. The puppy did nothing bad, just was suddenly there. But it was not a positive experience. 

And the pup that I took from one store to another to another, by the third store, she was just completely done. She did not want to see another person, place, or thing that day. Overkill. 

During this socialization stuff the best thing is to not overwhelm the puppy, and then to not over-react or give reassurance when the puppy is displaying fearful behavior. "Its Ok, she won't hurt you" is interpreted as "Good boy, bark, of course you are afraid, we need to scare it away." Remain calm. I usually just say, It's a person, you've seen people before, and move on. 

If people come up asking to pet the dog, this is a question you can answer yes or no to. If there is a group of people, or if the the kids seem out of control, say no, sorry, she has not been socialized to kids yet. Be picky. Down the line, when the dog has more experiences to draw from, you can be a little more risky, but it is important at this point for positive experiences. If the parents are distracted with their own two small dogs, and a pasel of kids, then no. 

When you do decide to let someone pet the dog, offer them a treat and explain how to offer it, palm up open hand. Tell your dog to take it nice, or gentle. Teach them how to pet the dog, starting under the chin and working up along the the side of the face up to the top of the head, and not just coming down from above like a ton of bricks. Dogs generally look up And if you suddenly look up, you lower jaw will generally drop open. This exposes our dogs rather large canines, and an inexperienced petter might take that as a sign of aggression pulling back the hand, which the dog sees as teasing or something to chase or realizes the fear and becomes alert or even fearful.


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