# Herding Instinct Test?



## cindy_s (Jun 14, 2009)

I've been wanting to try herding with my 4 yr old Ruger for quite a while. I got an opportunity to take him to a herding instinct test yesterday. Sorry, no pictures. It was a yucky day weather wise. So, here's some background info first. Ruger had been previously working in obedience, until I messed him up. I was nervous, and I put too much pressure on him. He got his first little title, RN, then he just blew me off. I've since been reworking him with loads of nothing but happy-happy focus training. Now, I also have thoroughbreds here at home. I worked with him for over a year to stop chasing the horses, until he chased a fairly expensive race horse prospect through a fence, and that ended that horses future career. I had no choice but to shock him off the horses. That did work. I did fear that he would not be interested in the sheep, because of that "training". 
Now, yesterdays test. He went out to the field where there were 4 penned sheep. We were to walk around the pen, and he was glued to me in heel position. So, I was instructed to go in with the sheep, to see if he would start to work them. He was pretty much focused on me the whole time. He did run around the pen, but watching me the whole time. Man, he did some fabulous moving downs! He then went to a larger pen of sheep to test him on tending. He had no interest in running them across the fence. I told the instructor about his training, and that he was likely not going to run the fence to chase the sheep. I thought he might do better if he actually got in with them. They did not let any dogs in with the sheep at all. Ruger showed no signs of aggression. He only acted like a great obedience dog. My question is, is this how instinct test go? They passed him saying that he had a future in fetching, but not so much in tending! I don't know why he would not be allowed in with the sheep to really test him, especially considering his obedience and focus on me. But, really what I know about herding couldn't fill a postage stamp. I personally saw no signs that he would make a good herding dog, at least through a fence. Should I have him retested ON sheep to see if he would light up? God knows, he has the prey drive, but he also knows he must not chase animals across a fence. Or, should I just get him ready for his BH?


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

All the HIC tests I've been to had the dogs in with the sheep. Here's Mauser:










The lady who ran the test was in there with him with her stick. She explained to everyone at the beginning that if a dog looked like he want to EAT the sheep instead of herding she was going to use the stick on them. She wasn't going to HURT them - just get their attention off the sheep.

She did have to use the stick a couple times but only had to whack the ground in front of the dog to stop them.


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## kess&ellie (Jan 14, 2008)

All the things I've read (and heard) about the herding instinct test say the dog is in with the sheep. Was it through the AKC?

When Koda did his test last week the first judge had a long line on him but she took it off once she realized he was no threat to the sheep. She wanted to see him move the sheep from both directions. The judge on the second day did not require the long line on any dogs and just let them interact with the sheep, using her stick to stop them, if necessary.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I've done a few HIC's and always the dog is IN the ring with the sheep,,also started with a long line, and ended up releasing them when it was determined they weren't gonna 'eat' the sheep)

My aussie was the last one I did, and I "believe" things for hic is a tad different now, in that you get tested twice by two different testers??? I could be wrong, but my aussie passed, we never got our certificate but I did get a "pass" thing, and had to go again with someone different to certify.. Maybe it was an ASCA thing, vs AKC? can't recall...

Anyhow, I suppose some may be afraid of our "big bad wolves" eating the sheep and therefore keep them on the outside of the pen, but I honestly have never seen it done that way..


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## cindy_s (Jun 14, 2009)

Thanks for the replies. It was not through the AKC, but rather a trainer was putting it on at her farm. As I said, I don't know ANYTHING about herding. I saw this trainer mentioned favorably on this forum, and I looked up the site. They offer "herding instinct" tests monthly. I think it's more to hook people into herding lessons than anything else. They charged $50.00 to have the dogs look at sheep from across a fence. I could have driven down to a farm and let him see sheep for free! The good thing was that I got to spend the whole day with my buddy. I was also able to see that AKC obedience in a small ring might not be his cup of tea, but take him out in a field, and he is fantastic. We regained a lot of trust in each other, and I was able to really proof him on some exercises. So I know to forget about the CD for now, and try to get the BH. But for now, I'm still looking for a herding instructor. I'm in DE. Any ideas?
Oh, here's the potential big, bad sheep eater in question


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

cindy he's gorgeous!!!!

and ahh that explains it,,and 50$ !! HOLEY COW! I don't think I paid that to get certified !! 

Sorry I'm not in that area so I don't know anyone who trains,,good luck to you and the 'sheep eater' LOL


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

It depends on how far you are willing to travel, but there is a guy who does HGH-style herding in northern NJ. I have been going with one of mine for a couple of months, and she is doing REALLY well, I hope to title her next fall.
If you go up there he will do his own instinct test but an instinct test is not a guarantee that the dog can or can't herd - even if the dog shows interest in sheep, they can still flunk out later...especially with HGH herding! Some herding can be done through obedience vs. actual herding drive but not HGH herding...
The instinct test for HGH herding is not done in with the sheep either, the dog is on a line and you move along the fenceline to see how he/she reacts to the sheep. 

Anyway I did do an instinct test at another farm a year or two ago - maybe it was the same one you went to?? Was it in PA? It sounded exactly the same, dog is on the outside of the pen w/ 4 sheep in the middle. Only dogs who didn't react to the sheep from outside of the pen were allowed to go in with them...I guess just for safety reasons. 

I can send you the contact info for the guy in NJ if you'd be willing to travel...not sure if he is taking on more students at the moment but I can ask!


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## cindy_s (Jun 14, 2009)

Thanks so much. I'm predjudiced, so I think he's adorable. Has anyone had experience with fly away aussies? They are not too far from me.


> Originally Posted By: JakodaCD OAcindy he's gorgeous!!!!
> 
> and ahh that explains it,,and 50$ !! HOLEY COW! I don't think I paid that to get certified !!
> 
> Sorry I'm not in that area so I don't know anyone who trains,,good luck to you and the 'sheep eater' LOL


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

What would they look for in the dog reacting to the sheep?

Also how much obedience is expected of a dog for herding instinct test?

I have thought about having my girl tested, she would react similarly to a border collie, head down, intense stare, stalk. And likely chase if they were loose to run away, a nipping their flanks.

But she's not awfully obedient when she gets in that focus, though I think she could be with work, does a dog need to be responsive to voice commands while in high drive?

The lady that runs the rescue I got her from does competition Australian shepherd herding, she recommended having her tested when I adopted her as she was in their doggy day care and she said she herded all the other dogs, something she does at the dog park as well.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I think sometimes tending is tested behind a fence.

Round pen the dog is in with the sheep. Not a lot of obedience is required. They usually leave a line on at first. The judge is "armed" with a crook or rake to defend sheep if needed. 
I think you may be asked to demonstrate some control..like a down and recall of the dog.

From AKC

Once the dog is allowed to approach the livestock, the tester will be looking for sustained interest in controlling the livestock. This can be shown by the dog gathering the livestock, moving the livestock toward the handler, or moving them ahead of the handler in a driving position. A combination of any of these styles is acceptable. Boundary testing will have the tester watching for a dog that also shows a tendency to honor a border while showing sustained interest in working.

Dogs that cannot show enough control to work the stock in an acceptable manner will be removed at the tester's request.

At first glance, this description gives the impression that no prior training would be required. Technically, this is correct. However, the requirement for a stop and a recall is often a difficult one for novice dogs, especially for those with a lot of drive. Herding instinct is strong, and even the highest trained obedience dog has proven that they can and will forget even the basics when faced with the choice to listen to his Master or his instincts! Exhibitors should take into consideration that that a dog that is removed for a lack of a stop and recall is not necessarily being removed for a lack of instinct. Should this happen, maybe a little preparation before the next instinct test would be in order, to reinforce the stop and recall while in the pen with livestock.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Usually, the dog is IN with the sheep so that they can show they have the instinct to control and move the sheep. We would move away and she would gather the sheep and move them to us. The judge put some pressure on her getting her to back off some, change direction etc. Fun, fun stuff.


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: TxRiderI have thought about having my girl tested, she would react similarly to a border collie, head down, intense stare, stalk. And likely chase if they were loose to run away, a nipping their flanks.


BC's and GSD's work sheep quite differently. Your GSD will more than likely NOT do the BC head down/stare/stalk thing (unless she is a GSD mix and then it would depend on what she was mixed with)

http://www.herdingontheweb.com/workingstyles.htm


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: mspiker03
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: TxRiderI have thought about having my girl tested, she would react similarly to a border collie, head down, intense stare, stalk. And likely chase if they were loose to run away, a nipping their flanks.
> ...


Yes I know, just trying to describe the focus she gets on basically anything. A squirrel, a cat, a deer, it's always a massive locked on focus, head drops, one front foot comes up a lot, no sound or bark, and it takes an act of god to get her to break her stare.

So far I'm just working on stop, sit and down while she's in it and have some success, and I can drop her leash and she won't bolt. But boy is she ever focused.

Any command she obeys is in slow motion, so as not to break the stalk and make the critter run.

It's a problem for me because my neighborhood is filled with critters, and as it is this type of drive means I can never let her off leash. Because she will bolt and chase a critter in flight. Her two walks a day are 100% focus on seeing and stalking critters for her.

I was thinking maybe herding would help her really get her self control built up and listening to her handler much better. She needs a good outlet for this drive, a job, something I can work with her cooperatively with.

I guess I need to get her down and recall in that deep drive built up better first though.

My other choice would be to shock her off of all the critters, and try to build up fetching as her outlet instead or something. She needs some way to express that drive though, not having an outlet for it would not be good for her I don't think, she would make her own, and her current outlets are not good for her either.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I too bet your dog will work more like a GSD. My girl does that stalking behavior on critters and one of the judges we met did remark that she has "eye" when herding. It is not as pronounced as a BC and not usually seen in a GSD. Yours may exhibit some eye when you give it a go. 

It is nice to have very biddable dog when herding because of this need for control during high drive work. You begin to learn why the breed has the characteristics that it is does when you get out there.

Work with your dog on the obedience while in some drive for something else. I bet you can make progress. Don't start at the "hardest" point of her locking in on something but build from the place where you can "reach" her.


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: SambaI too bet your dog will work more like a GSD. My girl does that stalking behavior on critters and one of the judges we met did remark that she has "eye" when herding. It is not as pronounced as a BC and not usually seen in a GSD. Yours may exhibit some eye when you give it a go.
> 
> It is nice to have very biddable dog when herding because of this need for control during high drive work. You begin to learn why the breed has the characteristics that it is does when you get out there.
> 
> Work with your dog on the obedience while in some drive for something else. I bet you can make progress. Don't start at the "hardest" point of her locking in on something but build from the place where you can "reach" her.


Yeah that's what I'm trying to do, but times like this morning, where on a 3 mile walk it's rare to have moment without a squirrel in sight, she's past her threshold the minute we walk out the door and pretty much all the time.

I can get her to stop and sit though, she even did it with one about 10-15 feet away today, just very slow and I had to tap her leash to get it. It's like a 3 mile walk, most of it in stalking, she never relaxes and lets up.

I think I am going to get the clicker out and back up a bit and harden up her down so she hits the deck instantly at home, and outside away from any critters, and work it from there until I can get it when she's in overdrive. Then go give it a go.

She's got such a prey drive, the rest of life seems to be just a way to pass the time until she gets to use it again. She just doesn't know what to do with it.

If I had her from a pup I would have directed it better, but getting her like this at 3yrs old with zero obedience is a real challenge.

I think it's either herding and extinction of other prey, or a shock collar, or I'll have to just stop giving her walks anywhere around here. Progress trying to manage this is pretty slow.

Having Kaya for past 3 weeks has just shown me such a huge contrast in behavior, and just how deep she's into it.


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## Timberlinek9 (Mar 20, 2008)

Cindy, where in DE are you?


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