# Odd remarks by trainer



## Coastie01 (Mar 17, 2011)

So I posted a few weeks back that I was going to a club to check it out and today was the day but I was not impressed by the trainer. He said something that kinda threw me for a loop. The statement was that dogs either want to bite or they dont. He said it is in there genetics and that you cant really teach it. I dont really believe him but maybe I am wrong. My boy Nero is steadily progressing towards wanting to bite his toy so I just really have a hard time believing this.The next thing that I was shocked at was that they were giving a command and then if the dog didnt do it they just waited for the dog to do it then rewarded. I am all for positive training but isnt that why there are four quadrants? Maybe it was just different than what I am use to or maybe he isnt a good trainer. Either way just looking for some opinions.


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## Coastie01 (Mar 17, 2011)

Oh yah I knew i was forgetting something. He said that prey drive is a bunch of bs and that the dog works only for reward.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

I agree with the notion of dogs either want to bite or they don't. Genetics make the dog what it is, and training simply refines the behaviors we want, when we want them.

I am unclear of the context on prey drive, but if the comment is to say training strictly in prey drive is BS, then I sorta agree.....if the comment is to say that the concept of prey drive or other drives in the dog are BS, or employing the drives to train the dog is BS...then I do not agree.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

The motivation for activating prey drive in a dog is "reward".


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## Heagler870 (Jun 27, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> The motivation for activating prey drive in a dog is "reward".


I completely agree! I've been working with Riley for a month building up his prey drive and his motivation and obedience towards me for that ball and tug have improved ten fold!


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## Dr89 (Nov 18, 2010)

from what i've seen with my trainer and the dogs there, i would have to agree that a dog either wants to bite or it doesnt. if it doesn't want to, well then just like any other trick you can reward and convince them to do something they dont necessarily WANT to do, but the performance will never be great.

If you're seeing improvements then thats good keep it up. but ideally if you're looking to do bite work you won't have to coax nero into wanting to bite. I would have never gotten interested in bite work in the first place if Rambo didnt try to take my hand off everytime i got his tug out!

Find what your dog WANTS to do and pursue that, less stressful for all involved.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Coastie01 said:


> .... The statement was that dogs either want to bite or they dont. He said it is in there genetics and that you cant really teach it. .....The next thing that I was shocked at was that they were giving a command and then if the dog didnt do it they just waited for the dog to do it then rewarded. I am all for positive training but isnt that why there are four quadrants?


I like him already. I don't do Schutzhund but here are my general thoughts that I think can be applied to any training regardless of sport.

First, I agree either a dog wants to bite or doesn't. But I think added to that is WHY they want to bite. My girl would bite due to prey drive but more importantly she would bite due to fear. So that tells me, she shouldn't do bite work. She doesn't have the nerve and temperament.

Second, do you want a dog that learns to bite in a way that motivates him to work? Or do you want a dog that does it because outside forces are MAKING him do it? If you are just teaching a dog to do something, it is unfair to the dog to correct him/her for something he doesn't fully understand. It's one thing if the dog blatantly refuses to do something vs not being fully trained in it.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Coastie01 said:


> The next thing that I was shocked at was that they were giving a command and then if the dog didnt do it they just waited for the dog to do it then rewarded. I am all for positive training but isnt that why there are four quadrants?


If a dog loved the helper to fight with him and the helper stopped the fight; might that be punishment to that dog?

If a dog loved to play with the handler and the handler stopped the play; might that be a punishment for that dog?


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Coastie01 said:


> The statement was that dogs either want to bite or they dont. He said it is in there genetics and that you cant really teach it. I dont really believe him but maybe I am wrong. My boy Nero is steadily progressing towards wanting to bite his toy so I just really have a hard time believing this.


I agree with the trainer too.

A dog must consider biting a reward in itself, not be teached to bite by rewarding with something else when he does and that is genetics. If you are teaching your dog to want to bite his toy... you will see progress, but you will find your roof is pretty low and you will find that under pressure all that hard work may not pay off. Been there, done that. Teachers had been wanting to teach me to like Economy for several years with little success, we have reached the point where I agree it is important to learn Economy, but not to enjoy learning it. And under pressure... believe me, my scores are not pretty.

I don't say you can't improve, but you can do so only with what the dog brings on its genetics



> The next thing that I was shocked at was that they were giving a command and then if the dog didnt do it they just waited for the dog to do it then rewarded. I am all for positive training but isnt that why there are four quadrants? Maybe it was just different than what I am use to or maybe he isnt a good trainer. Either way just looking for some opinions.


Pretty common. It depends on where the dog is in the training and the goals for that session. There are many ways to punish a dog that do not include yanking the collar. Good examples are given by Fast


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