# Big pup, Prey drive and Kids



## McGloomy (Mar 13, 2018)

When I first came to this forum in March, my boy was about 8 months, 65lb and the issue that I was having was him jumping and nipping at people. The forum propelled me to find a trainer, which I did and I followed through.

He is now 14 months, 26" and 82lb. Still a pup. He rarely jumps and nips at adults anymore, he'll remain calm if someone approaches and pets him (which was NOT easy to accomplish by the way,) that's the good news. Bad news... He still jumps and nip at kids, and only kids.

How do I put this... I'm in my 20s, I live solo, none of my friends have kids. I'm just not in any social circles that include kids. Therefore, my dog is not exposed to kids.

The only kid that he's been intimately exposed to/socialised with was with my 4 year-old beloved nephew, who visited from Amsterdam, Holland. He and my cousins (his parents) stayed in my one-bedroom apartment for a week last summer. It was quite nerve-wrecking, to be perfectly honest. But I remained calm and taught my dog from the start, that by all means my nephew is OFF limit, if he jumps on my nephew, game over, time out. Surprisingly, he behaved so well that even when my nephew runs around he will either just ignore him or he would chase but ALWAYS stopped when my nephew stopped and did not nip my nephew at all. And he was very protective of him; nephew fell down, he barked and freaked out, nephew ran by himself, he barked until he'd come back. I was astounded and proud of my boy to say the least. Just to add, my nephew was a squeaky, jumpy oh-so-cute boy like a normal toddler. But my dog let my nephew pet him, listens to my nephew when he tells my dog to sit, my nephew even sleeps on leans on my dog (I always watch my dog's body language, he was always relaxed when my nephew does this.) My dog jumped and tried to nip my nephew the 1st few times during introduction, but boy, did I get angry at my dog and I think he really understood that by no means he was allowed to do that with my nephew. I suppose my dog behaved well because he saw my niece as 'part of the pack' and respected him PLUS the repetitions of what's ok and what's not ok (correction) when my dog was around my nephew were consistent. So that's that.

But when we're out on our daily walk, walk in crowded public places, dog park, I could see that he gets excited when he sees kids. And kids get either scared or excited when they see my dog. Bad, bad combination. It's as if he sees kids other than my nephew as preys or toys. One time I was walking my dog in the neighbourhood, this kid, 'Doggo!!!' ran from her parent, approached my dog from the front, and tried to pet my dog. My dog jumped and almost nipped at her face, in a playful way, since most kids' face are almost adjacent to my dog's face. The kid cried. And I don't even know why I was the one apologising to the parent. With adults my dog is now easy to correct. But when he's around kids, his excitement just goes up so quick that I don't know how to control it yet. 

Dog parks rule on kids at big dog areas: No kids under 12 years old are to roam by themselves, they have to be by the parents' side. Obviously people don't listen and dogs always get blamed. 
PLEASE NO DISCUSSION ON DOG PARKS OK OR NOT, it's getting way too old and frankly it's always the same arguments and it tends to derail the whole thread and it gets really annoyingly counter productive. I'm just sharing as a means of finding a solution.

The approaches I've made on this issue:
1. Avoid kids at all cost
2. Let kids pet my dog when my dog is super duper ultra tired
3. Redirect with the 'look at me' command or with a toy

Obviously those 3 are not always do-able. The biggest problem with this issue is the fact that I'm not able to consistently train him how to behave around kids since, well, our lives are not exposed to kids daily. And with all due respect, I don't believe there's a dog training class with kid mannequins or whatever as pawns of training. 

Next month, my new trainer and I are going to start using E-collar. For recall, and for one more thing: staying away from an object.

MY QUESTIONS:
1. How in the world could I train him consistently when we're not exposed to the trigger on a daily basis?
2. Anyone has experience/articles/videos on E-collar training to teach your dog to stay away from an object? I would really like to here it. 

As always, I appreciate it.


----------



## McGloomy (Mar 13, 2018)

Pictures of my sweetest boy...


----------



## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

I know you don't want to "discuss" dog parks overall..which is fine. However it bears mentioning here..do not bring your dog to dog parks or places where children are allowed to run around freely until (and if) you get this under control.

So while yes the parents at the dog parks should be in control of their kids "off leash", you too have an equal responsibility to be in control of your dog off leash. Just to put it in comparative terms. 

If something happens (and a playful nip or jump from an 86 pound GSD can be devastating to a young child...like, it's their face..and their eyes), it is all on you. So definitely hit the pause button on the dog park or any off leash activities or busy parks at all.

When you have adults willing to work on issues with you with your dog, great. But there is really no fair or safe way to proof them around small children. 

What I would do, if I were you...book a block of privates with your trainer and go out and about on lead and let him assess the situation and tell you how to correct the behavior..if it can be corrected. Let him guide you and follow his instructions/recommendations to the letter. Some dogs just are never trustworthy around small children. Not saying this is the case here, just accept that it is a possibility.

Kids are end game. It doesn't matter if a kid runs up to your dog out of control. Regardless of whose fault it really is..society will find you at fault for having a dog that jumps on/nips/scratches a wayward toddler. Doesn't matter if that is fair or not, it just matters that it "is". 

So you have a responsibility to avoid kids for now and work with a trainer to get skilled tips on how to grab his focus and quickly walk away. If his jumping and face nipping reactions to that are not fixable you have an absolute obligation to not take him around places where he will encounter lots of kids, like parks, Lowes and other stores that allow pets, etc. If he does not get to the point where he would not nip at a 5 year old who runs up and pats his butt (it happens all the time) then don't bring him to those places at all. You can't control how society manages their kids in public, you can only control how you manage your dog. It is infuriating when parents lose track of their kid and they get in your dog's face..nonetheless if your dog can't handle that, avoid situations like pet friendly stores and playgrounds where that has a higher chance of happening. 

Good luck. He sure is a handsome boy. And what he is doing is totally common..I'm not saying he can't be trained out of it...but you need to keep things as safe as possible until then.


----------



## mmags (Nov 30, 2017)

First off, good job being fully aware of this issue and trying to do everything you can to help correct it. Most training if not all doesn't require an E-collar, however, I think this is a case where it can be a really useful tool either for redirection or correction. It would be useful if you had situations for training where you could introduce a kid safely to your pup and work on the correct behaviors in a controlled setting with your trainer vs just random scenarios with strangers kids coming up to your dog. I understand this may be hard since you said you do not have many friends with kids. A muzzle could be useful for some things in this case just for safety with the nipping. Muzzles get a bad wrap but can be a great tool. For now and until the problem really gets worked on maybe you could have a bold DO NOT PET collar or harness or an ASK BEFORE PETTING patch just to deter parents allowing their children to do so. You may need to avoid places where you could run into kids until this gets worked on or he takes commands better from you in high excitement situations. He needs to know you are more exciting than them. Good luck!


----------



## Katsugsd (Jul 7, 2018)

It does suck that lots of people don't keep track of their children in public and allow them to approach strange dogs. It's dangerous. 


My two are good with kids (one practically drools when he sees children) so the worst I have to worry about is the kid tripping over themselves and getting licked on the ear or cheek. Regardless, I dislike when children I do not know approach me and my dogs. Normally my RBF expression keeps people at bay. 


Sometimes, and I've just started this recently, when I see people/kids making their way towards me and my dogs, I make brief eye contact and lead my dogs in the opposite direction. It tends to get the point across for most people, although they give me this upset look like "how could you DENY me a chance to pet a puppy?" *sighs*


I like the idea of booking private lessons and going out in public with your trainer. Hopefully they can spot and tell you how to correct the excitement your dog gets when he sees kids.


I have generally found that "Do Not Pet" patches don't work for some people. As if they cannot read.


----------



## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

McGloomy said:


> When I first came to this forum in March, my boy was about 8 months, 65lb and the issue that I was having was him jumping and nipping at people. The forum propelled me to find a trainer, which I did and I followed through.
> 
> He is now 14 months, 26" and 82lb. Still a pup. He rarely jumps and nips at adults anymore, he'll remain calm if someone approaches and pets him (which was NOT easy to accomplish by the way,) that's the good news. Bad news... He still jumps and nip at kids, and only kids.
> 
> ...


My 2 cents...

Life happens, kids are part of that, so the sooner you get your dog to behave around them appropriately the better, right? So, follow your own success and teach your dog that kids, all kids, are off limits! Do exactly what you did (the parts I bolded above) with your nephew! 

You didn't say how you reacted when your dog jumped and almost nipped the child that ran up to let him in your neighborhood, but if it were me my dog would have seriously and instantly been introduced to a religious figure...in no uncertain terms! It doesn't fall to children to behave, nor is your dog's behavior the child's parents responsibility...But again, what a great opportunity to teach your dog appropriate manners!

I always have to laugh at folks at our local dog park when someone brings their young kids. People grumble about the "rules" and you can see several people leashing up their dogs right away, which is the responsible thing to do BTW. BUT, they then leave immediately, grumbling all the way out of the park, instead of taking advantage of the wonderful opportunity they've been presented with for teaching their dog some manners! You don't teach a dog how to behave around children without children! 

Recently we had a young mother bring her 6-7 yr old kid along with his bike to the dog park. What a fiasco! Talk about the 2 biggest triggers for lots of dogs! 

I can hear the backlash already LOL! But it's true, in order to teach your dog about children you need them to see children. Like you, I don't have a lot of friends with small children anymore. My kids are in high school and college now, so we just don't get a lot of toddlers visiting anymore...So I take my dog frequently to the park and we hang out periodically near a little playground with little kids running and screaming and playing, so she is used to that.

Anyway, just a long winded way of saying you already know how to teach your dog to behave appropriately around kids. You did it with your nephew...why now look for some other way? Just teach him!


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Children under 4ft tall should not be allowed in dog parks. There should be signs posted.


----------



## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

14 months is a bit old to be acting like that. Good you already got with a trainer but I would continue to work hard on nothing in life is free and basic obedience. If your dog listens to you, he listens no matter what kind of distraction. Sounds like he might just need a few more classes, ever thought about enrolling in a CGC course ? They usually have a section that works on strangers approaching and most trainers will incorporate kids especially if your dog struggles with them. Children are everywhere, doesn't matter if it's the dog park or not. I'd practice on your own going to local parks, etc. and just let your dog watch and observe kids, no need to interact. Just let him sit there and take it all in on his own terms. Your dog may just innately not like children, so you need to be aware of that. If a little kid is running up to your dog get in the way and don't let the kid get near your dog. This is not a situation for an e collar, and I wouldn't jump to that tool right away regardless of the scenario without some hard work and training first, if you don't know what you're doing things can backfire. 
Our dogs are roughly the same age and size, 85 pounds is not a "puppy" if you meant it that way, and most people will not see him as a baby.


----------



## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

I have kids, friends with kids lots of exposure and it feels like it's taken me ages to teach my dog how to behave in general Lol

Somethings have just come with maturity so I keep up the reps keep trying. My dog is 19 months now and nearly solid with kids. He is still young and exuberant so he is a spaz sometimes and I love him for it. Lol

My dog LOVES kids and it sounds like yours may as well. My dog will demand attention sounds like yours may as well.
My dog was super mouthy and is an opportunistic jumper. He is almost over it. 

One thing that I think helped a lot was greeting manners. This was super hard for me and honestly just finally started coming together the last 3 months. It started with me. Then moved to immediate family then extendend family then strangers. It was sit for any adult attention (adults dont like to squat to pet a dog) and down for any kid attention, kids are really good at belly rubs. It took a ton of reps and consistency. 

I started out with down for any attention but as I said adults dont squat and it ended up working against me....that's a whole other story. 

You do have to get the mouthiness under control.


----------



## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

1 cent more...



> PLEASE NO DISCUSSION ON DOG PARKS OK OR NOT, it's getting way too old and frankly it's always the same arguments and it tends to derail the whole thread and it gets really annoyingly counter productive. I'm just sharing as a means of finding a solution.


Let's talk about dog parks...kidding, just couldn't resist! What I really wanted to comment on is below...



> The approaches I've made on this issue:
> 1. Avoid kids at all cost
> 2. Let kids pet my dog when my dog is super duper ultra tired
> 3. Redirect with the 'look at me' command or with a toy
> ...


The "goal" is to teach your young dog how to act appropriately with children right? It's not necessary to expose him daily to accomplish this. But it is necessary to be consistent when encounters occur! Avoidance and redirection teach your dog nothing! And in MHO redirection has no place in training a dog as old as yours, it's for puppies who can't yet contain themselves! 

I do think letting kids pet him when he's tired is a good thing, with you right there and able to intervene immediately if needed to prevent an injury of any kind! Praise him calmly, for being calm too, and follow that up with a good game of tug or fetch to help solidify what he's learned!



> Next month, my new trainer and I are going to start using E-collar. For recall, and for one more thing: staying away from an object.


The absolute LAST thing you would ever want to teach your dog is to avoid children using an e-collar! Training like that has soo much potential to backfire at some point, and could very likely end up with a child your dog is unable to avoid or escape from being seriously hurt! In fact, I'm curious as to what objects you're planning on teaching your dog to avoid using the e-collar? I can't, offhand, think of any object I'd want my dog trained to avoid like that...


----------



## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Without reading all the posts I'm going to add my 2 cents. I don't have kids around all the time, either. This time of year there are kids at bus stops, though, and often a parent or two with them (but not always). I usually put out a hand that means STOP when the kids start to come near. And so far they either completely stop or slow down. I keep my dog near my side and explain to the kids that running up to the dog is a good way to get knocked down (I don't say bit...kids imaginations can get a dog owner in trouble). If all goes right and my dog isn't too tired or too excited I will let them come in for a touch. I still watch my dog to make sure they don't get too over-bearing. If not I'll have the kids stay at arms length and have my dog bark for them. 

As far as e-collars go, I don't use one. There are times when my gal-dog wants to talk smack with the neighbor's dog and I can't catch her to correct her. That might be the only reason I'd use an e-collar and even then the timing would have to be perfect...otherwise it might end of being "when I see that other dog I get zapped...I HATE that other dog". That would be worse than what I have now, which is mostly excited fence running for 90 seconds or so. "the other dog is here! The other dog is here!" It would be better to use the vibration or tingle from the collar to signal a recall. "if you leave that thing and come to me instead something good will happen" and pair it with a long leash to teach the concept. 

If you want to use the e-collar to teach a dog to stay out of something like a flower bed I guess you could contact the invisible fence vendors.


----------



## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

You avoid superstitious e-collar issues if you always use markers prior to correcting and have introduced the collar properly.

OP- find a new trainer if the one you are using does not emphasize this. I wouldn't use an e-collar for this problem but it can be done correctly. It can also be a real bad idea, so make sure you get the details from your trainer.


----------



## McGloomy (Mar 13, 2018)

@CometDog Exactly, adults are capable of working on issues. I always try and bring my dog walking in public places such as malls when he is exercised.
@mmags thanks. The Do Not Pet harness is actually what I've been thinking too.


----------



## McGloomy (Mar 13, 2018)

@Katsugsd Hahaha yeah sometimes they do give 'that look.' We are indeed going to have a session in a public space.
@Wolfydog I think the height is not listed. Just the age. Shame...


----------



## McGloomy (Mar 13, 2018)

@tim_s_adams Lol, I can understand why those people leave and grunt! Going in a bike... Pfft... Jeez. Tim, I'm not able to do it with other kids probably because with my nephew it was an everyday thing and it was always in a controlled environment while with other kids... Not so much. But you're right, use every opportunity and encounter as a chance of training. With the upcoming session I'd definitely address this 'kids issues' with my trainer so I'd know how to really handle each situation properly.


----------



## McGloomy (Mar 13, 2018)

@GandalfTheShepherd I have thought about CGC, but will probably do that when he's fully matured, say 3 years old. I love the idea of just sitting and let him 'people watch.' I'd definitely do that! I know the perfect place. Thanks.

I disagree that he is not still a pup though. Even at 2 years old I'd consider GSDs still pups. Just big body puppy mind. Maturing, yes. Fully matured, I don't think so. That being said, every step I take in training him is to help him and guide him as he continue to mature with age.


----------



## McGloomy (Mar 13, 2018)

@Apex1 I LOVE hearing that by 19 months your dog has started to 'REALLY get it.' And yes, I do think my dog likes kids. He is never annoyed or bothered or growl around kids, which I'm thankful for. I really really like the idea of 'sit for adults, down for kids.' I would definitely try to implement that. It'll be extra hard but great idea indeed! Thanks!!


----------



## McGloomy (Mar 13, 2018)

@car2ner should've done that when that kid runs... It was my bad because I was on the phone... More precautions when kids are around I suppose.
@Muskeg the trainer I found is legit. He works under Nat Geo and specialises in powerful breeds. So we'll discuss e-collar in details for sure.


----------



## McGloomy (Mar 13, 2018)

E-collar to stay away from an object is something I've been discussing with my trainer. Mostly to prevent a behaviour. For example, my dog is about to hump, correction. He has his attention on a jumping kid (yeah, we've come across a kid doing JUMPING JACKS for no reason in an off-leash big dog area), correction.


----------



## KaiserAus (Dec 16, 2016)

I have two children (12 and 11) so my boy just loves kids, he knows kids mean great fun... but the way he plays with my two is not the way he can play with other kids... my kids know his growls are part of the game and his teeth don't hurt, but other kids get scared when he growls and makes a move to mouth them. I take Kaiser down to the kids park every weekend, we do training (sit, down, stay) right next to the swings and climbing frames where all the kids are running and squealing - always with the lead on. If kids ask to pat him, I ask them to please wait whilst I make him sit (this is very hard because he is dying to go up and lick faces) but the kids always oblige and Kaiser does sit and then he gets his pats. I keep a close hold of his lead and if he makes any movement towards licking or faces or jumping he gets a hard pull on his prong collar.
He has gotten much better with age, last week he had 5 boys all about 12 - 14yr old surrounding him, patting him and telling him what a lovely boy he was and generally getting quite excited by it all and he behaved perfectly... maturity helps but so does knowing what is expected of him and plenty of practise.


----------



## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

Just wanted to agree....little kids do crazy things! Once a little boy (5?) come running around the corner of an apartment building, headed right for us. Within a few feet of Rumo, he suddenly changed his mind and ran away at full speed. That triggered RUmo’s prey/chase drive and he lunged to chase....until he hit the end of the leash. I have never been so grateful to have the leash on my dog! 

I agree that it’s hard to practice and train for these kind of random moments, they happen so fast. Curious to hear what trainer recommends!


----------



## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

McGloomy said:


> @tim_s_adams Lol, I can understand why those people leave and grunt! Going in a bike... Pfft... Jeez. Tim, I'm not able to do it with other kids probably because with my nephew it was an everyday thing and it was always in a controlled environment while with other kids... Not so much. But you're right, use every opportunity and encounter as a chance of training. With the upcoming session I'd definitely address this 'kids issues' with my trainer so I'd know how to really handle each situation properly.


If your dog is on a leash, it's a controlled environment.


----------



## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

McGloomy said:


> E-collar to stay away from an object is something I've been discussing with my trainer. Mostly to prevent a behaviour. For example, my dog is about to hump, correction. He has his attention on a jumping kid (yeah, we've come across a kid doing JUMPING JACKS for no reason in an off-leash big dog area), correction.


Hmm...if my dog failed to notice a kid doing jumping jacks in the middle of a dog park I'd be disappointed! I guess it's all a perspective thing...if she got too interested, as in fixating, I'd just tell her to leave it...and she knows what that means!

I'd be interested in hearing what your trainer has to say about the "proper" way to handle these situations!


----------



## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

My 11 year old daughter and her friends are all into gymnastics. There are always kids doing handsprings on my front lawn, backyard..and even sometimes living room. They also all play Let's Dance WII in the living room. The dog is not allowed to and does not jump on or landshark the kids, period. When he did it as a pup at 5.5 months when I got him, it was hard corrections. Not saying I have some technique..maybe I just have a resolve over it..not to be tolerated. We had GSDS the whole time I was growing up. I was unsupervised with the dogs, landsharked, and even sometimes blocked in (or out) by them. Never in an outwardly aggressive way...but they pushed me around and I was afraid sometimes to cross the room or the yard. I lOVED them, and when they were mature I'd spend the day playing with them, pretending we were in the Army lol But when they were pups and teen...I took a lot of doo doo a kid should not have to take.

So perhaps I am a bit Come To Jesus over it. Once I was seconds away from kicking a friend's doodle that was repeatedly attempting to hump my child. Before I had to do that (in hindsight I should have done it the first time he went to mount my small child right on the end of his flexilead in front of my friend, his owner) the teen in the family came out and sorted it (by humping him back as the "trainer" had told him to do..don't even get me started) ...but I felt rage when a misbehaving rambunctious dog was doing that to my child.

It can only take one scary incident to make a small child deeply afraid of dogs. Kids are off limits. Pet peeve of mine when kids are jumped and bullied by untrained dogs.


----------



## Shepdad (Oct 24, 2017)

I have have never used an e-collar so no opinion on that but one of my brothers has a really well-trained GSD using an e-collar guided by a professional. All dogs are different. My best schutzhund dog with the highest prey drive loved playing with kids. I started bringing him to kids' playgrounds when he was 9 weeks old and he was never too rough with any kid his entire life. He was super confident , had high thresholds and tolerance and probably thought kids were puppies. On the other hand, I had a Czech from border patrol lines, who Ivan B. tried to buy from me for a P.D. He disliked any unruly or disorderly behavior from anyone adults, kids or animals, and had to be put in the crate whenever kids were running around in the yard because he thought that was too unruly. One time, a kid rushed him in the park before I could react and he just licked his face. A stable dog is a stable dog.


----------



## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Humping him back...wow! Not in my toolbox now or ever LOL! 

Dogs humping a kid is not something I would ever tolerate either, but calmly telling the no and pushing them down from the child is usually sufficient for them to get the message. No need for anger or rage IMO, just consistent discouragement. 

Same with dogs humping other dogs, consistent discouragement is usually sufficient to extinguish the behavior for the most part. I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone who's been successful at distinguishing it 100%...it is a natural behavior that dog's utilize for a variety of reasons besides procreation!


----------



## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

tim_s_adams said:


> Humping him back...wow! Not in my toolbox now or ever LOL!
> 
> Dogs humping a kid is not something I would ever tolerate either, but calmly telling the no and pushing them down from the child is usually sufficient for them to get the message. No need for anger or rage IMO, just consistent discouragement.
> 
> Same with dogs humping other dogs, consistent discouragement is usually sufficient to extinguish the behavior for the most part. I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone who's been successful at distinguishing it 100%...it is a natural behavior that dog's utilize for a variety of reasons besides procreation!


My oldest boy tried to hump another dog exactly once. Received a well timed, stern correction, has never even attempted since. It’s totally possible to extinguish that behavior 100%. Especially in a breed like this one that has such a high desire to please their person.

I don’t like to nag my dogs. If I want a very undesirable (to me) behavior to cease, I don’t want to have to continually tell them to knock it off. If they’re still doing the behavior after a correction, it’s becoming practiced behavior, and it’s harder to break them of it. I’d much rather correct sternly once than nag and continually deal with a dog who thinks I don’t mean business. I’m not saying a correction should be abusive, or even physical (every dog is different), but I expect them to get the message the first time when they do something that I don’t want them to do again.


----------



## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

I agree Gypsy and that is exactly why I do not subscribe to using a strong physical correction (or verbal with some dogs) unless it is a "deal breaker" 

Making obedience mistakes, slightly breaking a long down in sport...mistakes...nah no hard corrections for that. My deal breakers are anything that is jerk behavior that can hurt people, especially kids and such, lunging at people for merely walking by, blowing recall after it is well established ...stuff like that. If they live life getting a strong prong correction or e collar correction for most mistakes, how will they know when they have crossed a line?

I may stand alone here, but hurting a kid that was doing nothing to provoke warrants a prong correction that is strong enough to create some dog body movement along with it. In my house. Like I said it stopped happening right quick without nagging or repeat incidents. Sometimes I see him thinking about it.Kids will go squealing and running by. He thinks about it, then the eyebrows do the thinking dance, and he checks himself. You can see him processing. Of course in my head he has a goofy voice in his own head saying "uh uh not do that".


----------



## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

CometDog said:


> I agree Gypsy and that is exactly why I do not subscribe to using a strong physical correction (or verbal with some dogs) unless it is a "deal breaker"
> 
> Making obedience mistakes, slightly breaking a long down in sport...mistakes...nah no hard corrections for that. My deal breakers are anything that is jerk behavior that can hurt people, especially kids and such, lunging at people for merely walking by, blowing recall after it is well established ...stuff like that. If they live life getting a strong prong correction or e collar correction for most mistakes, how will they know when they have crossed a line?
> 
> I may stand alone here, but hurting a kid that was doing nothing to provoke warrants a prong correction that is strong enough to create some dog body movement along with it. In my house. Like I said it stopped happening right quick without nagging or repeat incidents. Sometimes I see him thinking about it.Kids will go squealing and running by. He thinks about it, then the eyebrows do the thinking dance, and he checks himself. You can see him processing. Of course in my head he has a goofy voice in his own head saying "uh uh not do that".


I agree. The punishment has to fit the crime, so to speak. I use corrections when training formal obedience, but they are generally very mild. Just more of a reminder. When a dog displays an actual behavioral issue, that’s different.


----------



## McGloomy (Mar 13, 2018)

Guys, I think there's a misunderstanding here! My dog NEVER humps children or any human ever! Those are the most annoying dogs honestly. Just pure improper lol. 

And I wouldn't consider him a (dog) 'humper' either, he rarely humps other dogs but when he does it I hate it and he gets fixated.

Fixation is what I will be working on with my trainer. 

I like the idea of having him on 'obedience training' near a children's playground. I will try that actually. 

The training session will be sometime in October, because I'm still trying to pile up the money for it. E-collar training is a different price than regular obedience or any kind of training. Good news is this guy (my trainer) is completely worth it. 

I will update you guys on the training sometime next month.


----------



## McGloomy (Mar 13, 2018)

And by the way, one of the reasons I didn't continue training with our PREVIOUS trainer was the fact that she was into positive reinforcement almost exclusively. Other than saying 'No,' there was no other correction. I don't think she specialised in powerful breeds either.

I'm one of the people who can get physical when training my GSD. Some people are opposed to it, some others are the same, doesn't matter. Every person has their own method.

By all means I use the Cesar Millan kick on my dog when he's on leash and it DOES work when the timing is correct and the force is too. But my previous trainer disagreed firmly, while the current trainer says he does use that method too on his Dobe.


----------



## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

McGloomy said:


> And by the way, one of the reasons I didn't continue training with our PREVIOUS trainer was the fact that she was into positive reinforcement almost exclusively. Other than saying 'No,' there was no other correction. I don't think she specialised in powerful breeds either.
> 
> 
> I'm one of the people who can get physical when training my GSD. Some people are opposed to it, some others are the same, doesn't matter. Every person has their own method.
> ...



Did I read that correct? You KICK your dog...? I don't understand why that would ever be necessary.


----------



## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

The point I was making was to make it clear the first time that you find a behavior unacceptable. Doesn’t matter what the behavior is. If you issue nagging corrections, or correct in a way that the dog doesn’t respond to, the dog has a choice to make. “Can I deal with this and still do what I want?” If the correction doesn’t mean anything to your dog, why would they stop the behavior? I try to make things very black and white with my dogs. Verbal markers for good and bad behaviors. Appropriate corrections when needed (the type of correction varies greatly from dog to dog... some only need verbal corrections, others wouldn’t respond to that). Tons of engagement as often as possible.


----------



## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> Did I read that correct? You KICK your dog...? I don't understand why that would ever be necessary.


I am certainly not a fan of Cesar Milan, but this isn’t an actual “kick”. It’s more a tap with the foot. It’s an attention grabber, one that tons of people have been using since way before anyone had ever heard of Cesar Milan.


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I skimmed and just picked a couple of things here to respond to, but taking into account that you're young and don't have kids of your own. and that it looks like you have a good idea that consistency is important. I'd look at applying consistency a little differently for now. I'd try to be consistent with shaping some indifference to people with him, all people. Everyone, not just kids. Let them all just be part of the environment around him, and kind of remove his trying to figure out who's going to pet him, who isn't. Does he like it or not like it. 

Get rid of all that by keeping him out and active, but use a little bit of distance, just enough to let him be aware of everyone, but not close enough that he's thinking about how to act with them. Maybe its 10 yards now, or 50. Whatever he needs. For right now, don't have anyone pet him. Think about what you think you're doing with the little CM move. You can interrupt with a no or a pop with the leash. Something you have to remember with getting physical,with everything really, not just force. What do you do when that doesn't work? What are you going to do if he ignores your foot? Don't directly associate pain with your body parts like that. For every dog that will accept it, there's another one that's either going to avoid you or bite you.


----------



## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

GypsyGhost said:


> GandalfTheShepherd said:
> 
> 
> > Did I read that correct? You KICK your dog...? I don't understand why that would ever be necessary.
> ...


Yeah no thanks I've never had to resort to that with my dogs, and ive had a pretty hard headed working line at one point. Leashes get across a point just fine. Also who's to say your kick is the same as Mcgloomys? What if you are a pretty big guy and what you think is just a tap bruised the dog instead? Shepherds are brilliant and work to please, mine have always done best when I offer them training methods based on respect.

Well said like always Steve.


----------



## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> Yeah no thanks I've never had to resort to that with my dogs, and ive had a pretty hard headed working line at one point. Leashes get across a point just fine. Also who's to say your kick is the same as Mcgloomys? What if you are a pretty big guy and what you think is just a tap bruised the dog instead? Shepherds are brilliant and work to please, mine have always done best when I offer them training methods based on respect.
> 
> Well said like always Steve.


I don’t use it, just pointing out it’s not an actual kick. It’s been turned into a gimmick, just like everything else CM promotes.


----------



## McGloomy (Mar 13, 2018)

@GypsyGhost 'If you issue nagging corrections, or correct in a way that the dog doesn’t respond to, the dog has a choice to make.' this is very true. It's one of the things I learnt from our previous training with our new dog trainer. He said to find a correction that will make my dog uncomfortable enough to not wanna behave the same after the correction.

Thank you for explaining to @GandalfTheShepherd

Gandalf, like I said, everyone has a different training method. Your method works on your dog but doesn't necessarily work on mine. And yes, I use the kick, and it works on my dog. I know my dog best and I certainly know that kick causes no harm on him physically, but it does work mentally.


----------



## McGloomy (Mar 13, 2018)

@stevestorm I'm definitely going to start training him as you said, let the surroundings just be surroundings to him and have him ignore. One of the people here suggested to obedience train near a children's playground, which I think is a great idea to train him to ignore and reduce reaction. Thanks, Steve. Appreciate it


----------



## JessicaItzel (Jul 30, 2018)

Wow! You are pretty much describing Hero. I wish I have a solution for you but Im myself looking for one. Hero is 18 months old. I'm taking him to a Animal Behavior specialist "yes, those exist". Like I said before I'm more and less in the same predicament. The difference is that this past summer my neighborhood bloomed with kids, my dog is not to sure what's happening and he gets excited, but who would let their child come close to a 89 pound GSD with a really deep , loud bark. Well, I'll see what this specialist have to say about my boy, or if is just me not knowing how to read my dog. Good Luck. JEss


----------

