# Are These Red Flags?



## Bramble (Oct 23, 2011)

Up until now I have had no reason to doubt the breeder I was working with was anything other than reputable, but over the past few days I have had a few worrying things occur.

I asked if I could pay with a certified bank check rather than cash and the breeder refused saying they would require the check a week in advance. For those who do not know a certified bank check guarantees the money is available in my account and the check will not bounce. I don't see the issue unless they are not being above board about the sales on their taxes.


Second issue is the male I would be getting has one undescended testicle. They told me about this and it doesn't bother me since he would be a pet, but after reading other thread about it it seems like reputable breeders give a discount or at least a partial refund to cover additional surgery costs. I asked if they would be doing this. They said no since their contract does not offer a partial refund for undescended testicles with pups sold as pets/limited AKC registration. I am paying $1,800 for a puppy who I now may the added cost of a more invasive and dangerous surgery. 


I need to know if more experienced puppy buyers or breeders see these things as red flags or if I am over reacting. I feel very strongly about only supporting breeders who are reputable and putting the dogs above profits. Right now I am scheduled to pick my puppy up on Friday.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

can you pm me the breeders website? I'll take a look at it and give you my opinion.

I don't know why they would refuse a bank check/money order since as you say the money is guaranteed. They may want cash as you say, to avoid claiming it. That doesn't really raise a red flag for me because all breeders can do business the way they see fit.

As with the undescended testicle, some may discount price, others may not, sounds like they prefer not to. It will cost more to have him neutered since it is more invasive. 

Have you met/visited the breeder/ their dogs prior ? Given a deposit?


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Both of those seem like reasonable requests to me. I personally wouldn't buy a pup for $1800 with an undescended testicle.


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## Bramble (Oct 23, 2011)

PM sent.

I guess I just feel that someone breeding for the right reasons would keep things legit. If they are not being honest about that then what about in other areas?


I just feel a bit off about paying full price for a puppy with a known genetic fault. I figured a responsible breeder would offer a discount or something since they know the puppy has a health issue that could result in additional costs on my end in the future. 


Yes I have put down a deposit. I did meet the breeder and the puppies as well as the sire and dam. The meeting was not at their home though and the pickup would not be at their home either.


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## Bramble (Oct 23, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> Both of those seem like reasonable requests to me. I personally wouldn't buy a pup for $1800 with an undescended testicle.


I didn't feel like they the bank check should be an issue for a reputable breeder. I actually don't mind paying cash, but the fact that they won't accept a bank check just feels off to me.


$1,800 is a lot of money for me and I have been saving up for a puppy for years. Paying full price for a puppy with a known issue doesn't seem like the actions of a responsible breeder to me.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I do not see these as red flags. Your breeder was actually straightforward with you about the condition and you had the option to refuse this puppy because of it. Did you tell your breeder that you were planning to neuter your pet? If yes than I really don't see a problem. I would worry more about what is between the ears of that puppy than his testicles.

I also think that a breeder has every right to ask for any form of payment he or she pleases. It's not your job to worry about someone else's tax practices unless you are their accountant. I paid cash (actually went to a bank branch with cash and deposited it on my breeders acct) and I never even thought to hold it against my breeder. 

I don't see how your breeder puts the dog below profits. You read the contract, you agreed, your breeder was honest with you about the puppy condition and about his business policies, price, etc. It is your responsibility to take care of your puppy. If you neuter your pup than the genetic fault statement doesn't apply to your situation.

If your meeting was not at their home and the pickup will be somewhere else as well I wonder if you are dealing with a puppy mill broker, though. That would be something to worry about.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Some people can be funny about money. Specific requests for types of payment would not bother me. 

However, I'm with the others, paying full price for a pup with a known issue does bother me. 
Most breeders do have something in their contract on how they will deal with an undescended testicle. Of course, no contract can cover every single possibility and eventuality, but many good breeders go above and beyond their contract to help/fix issues/support/be fair to their puppy buyers, and are more concerned about pups going into good home than in the money. So that would be a red flag for me. 

You don't have to get this pup, even if you have a non-refundable deposit. You can ask for the deposit to be transferred to another litter if there are no other pups in this litter that would be suitable for your wants.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

First, you don't know if that is genetic or congenital or if it still may drop (doubtful but it might). Have you asked her if she's had this situation before?

Second, were you going to neuter anyways? Then other than a more invasive surgery, nothing has changed.

I wouldn't pay 1800 for that breeding personally. The breeding stock aren't titled other than UKC and basic BH, AD's. However, she's doing the right health clearances and she's working her dogs towards titles. So I would say she is a reputable breeder.

I paid cash. I don't find an issue with that. It no different than the cashier's check. If you want, ask for a receipt. Does this breeder have a contract? Or give her the check a week in advance like she requested so it can be cashed. I think it's just a case of her being young and not understanding it's the same as cash. And most likely the reasoning is the breeders don't want to get stiffed with a bad check.


And in the end, you put a deposit down for a healthy puppy, with no known issues, which is not the case here. If you have reservations, ask for your deposit back.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

well I get a weird feeling about the meeting not being at their home? and no I probably wouldn't pay 1800 for a male with an undescended testicle, especially if he is going to be a pet. Nothing against pets for sure, all mine are but since your not breeding, would have him neutered, If me, I'd lower price to ensure a good home..If your not feeling "fuzzy" about the whole thing, do what your gut tells you..


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I know that genetic or not, I would expect to pay $1800 for a puppy with 2 testicles. If both were not there, I wouldn't pay that much. Discounted, and only as a pet, I would consider it. But other than that, no. 

And yes, I would have expected to be picking up the puppy where they were whelped/raised.


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## Mister C (Jan 14, 2014)

Certified checks can be counterfeited so waiting a week to clear or cash on the barrel is a reasonable request.

You can&#39t always trust certified checks


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## Bramble (Oct 23, 2011)

Thank you all for the replies and advice. I have a lot to consider.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I would consider the fact that since the puppy has an undescended testicle you’re basically guaranteed to have that dog on limited registration throughout its life. I’m assuming that the rest of the puppies are able to get full registration if they meet certain requirements, like getting a BH as the breeder can’t really hold her puppy buyers to a higher standard than she holds herself, right? So that means for the same amount of money, you’re never able to get full registration whereas the other people purchasing puppies can. You never know what you’ll get into at this point, you might want a pet, but then in a few months visit a Schutzhund club and decide to train for it, then what? You’re stuck with a limited registration dog? Not saying the dog should be bred anyways, as this is a pretty big genetic issue…but that’s why you probably should expect a discount on the price.


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## Bramble (Oct 23, 2011)

That pretty much sums up my feelings martemchik. I feel like a reputable breeder wouldn't ask full price for a puppy with a health issue or at the very least would offer a partial refund if the testicle does not descend.

I have decided not to go through with the purchase. The things I mentioned along with a few other minor issues have led me to believe this is not the breeder I wish to support. Thank you all for your replies.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

I think you are very wise in your decision.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I think this is the right decision. If you don't feel comfortable then you should trust yourself and walk away. I would not get this puppy not becasue of the registration (you can do SchH with limited reg and with a neutered dog as well) but because I don't neuter male dogs unless medically necessary, and it will be necessary at a pretty young age.

You have a very nice budget for a working line puppy and I'm sure you will find a very good breeder soon.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Red flags: 1.Refusal by the breeder to see the premises (huge red flag to me). 2.The price tag for a dog you can never breed. 3. No discount for invasive surgery. By the way, IF this is mentioned in the contract, then he must know that this issue runs in his lines. IF that is the case, is he breeding dogs with these genes?
4. Too keen on the money.
Smart decision to walk away. Consider the deposit the price of a good lesson learned.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Wow. Very impressed with your decision.


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## Caja's Mom (Aug 6, 2003)

With just having done my first litter and under a co-ownership at that. We will gladly take any form of payment. 

Having people in your home, is understandable and not a deal breaker. We used the opportunity to get the litter to different places and to experience new things. It's a great way to see how the litter reacts and tests them. 

Not a fan of only BH's. Not my cup of tea, work too hard to title and test my own dogs to let it slide.


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## Bramble (Oct 23, 2011)

This was not an easy decision or one I made lightly. In all likely hood the male will turn out to be a wonderful pet just not for me. Maybe I am being too rigid and picky, but I don't think I could have taken the puppy without feeling like I'd sacrificed my own personal standards. I will try to look on this as a lesson that will help me be a little less naive in the future. I keep telling myself it is better to be in tears now than a few weeks or months down the road because I ignored my gut. I want the right puppy not a puppy right now.

Thank you all for your supportive words they mean more than I can say.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Bramble,
Bottom line - you felt uncomfortable with this. Good for you for realizing that and walking away.


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## orbitsams (Apr 24, 2015)

Bramble, You had some very legitimate concerns and went with your gut -- smart move. 

To me, the biggest red flag was the fact that the breeders did not want you to come to their home to pick the pup up. They may have had a good reason, but generally speaking, serious, knowledgeable breeders welcome potential puppy buyers to visit their homes/kennel, meet their dogs, ask lots of questions, etc. In fact, most breeders I know insist on it.

You made a very wise decision and no doubt you will find the right situation and the right puppy for you.


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