# Behavior change in 11 month old after being attacked



## Sonilee (2 mo ago)

Hello everyone, I am new here. I have an 11 Mo 125lb old GSD his name is Judge. He was so gentle and such a awesome pup when we first got him, however 5 days after we got him, he was in his yard playing when 2 large dogs down the road (unleashed) attacked him. Ever since, he has completely changed. He is anxious whenever we leave the house to the point that he has destroyed my couch and walls. He is reactive to his leash, he is super reactive to dogs, and is beginning to turn quite frequently on my old pitbull and a chau-wiennie that lives in the house and he only likes the members of the house, he cannot be approached in his back yard nor does he like other people to come up to the house. I'm not one to EVER give up on a dog, but it's so frustrating and I'm terrified that he is going to kill or seriously injure one of the other dogs. On the flip side he honestly can be the sweetest dog ever to me and the other members of the house, loves to cuddle on the couch, loves to catch ball, loves playing in the snow and very loyal and attentive when traning him. We are getting him neutered in March, that is the soonest
our vet wants to do the procedure, and without having him neutered, most trainers here will not participate with him.
It's sad that the reaction of two dogs unleashed started the entire episode, and I know as his owner I am responsible
for what's at hand, I just am overwhelmed sometimes thinking that there isn't a way to fix this. Are there any good videos or something that teaches how to break him of his anxiety and aggression? Any that are seriously helpful until we can get him neutered and trained professionally? I love this dog, I know he can change. We just need help and defintely in for the long haul and willing to do whatever it takes.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I changed your thread title to be more descriptive of the issue you're looking for help with.


----------



## Sonilee (2 mo ago)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I changed your thread title to be more descriptive of the issue you're looking for help with.


Thank you.


----------



## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

"without having him neutered, most trainers here will not participate with him."

This is a bit strange to me. Neutering may not change a thing.


----------



## Jorski (Jan 11, 2019)

Where do you live? With a region, people could possibly point you to some trainers that will work with intact dogs.


----------



## Sonilee (2 mo ago)

Jorski said:


> Where do you live? With a region, people could possibly point you to some trainers that will work with intact dogs.


Indianapolis, IN USA


----------



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Sonilee said:


> He is anxious whenever we leave the house to the point that he has destroyed my couch and walls.


If you have not already done so, get a crate, and crate him when you have to leave the house.



Sonilee said:


> He is reactive to his leash, he is super reactive to dogs, and is beginning to turn quite frequently on my old pitbull and a chau-wiennie that lives in the house


Are the other dogs male? If so, you have a problem. As dogs mature, they frequently become aggressive towards dogs of the same sex. This has nothing to do with the attack. Again, crate him when you can't supervise his interaction with the other dogs. Do not leave toys or bones lying around, as these can trigger attacks over which dog gets possession of the item. With an experienced owner that is good at spotting behaviours that lead up to a fight, sometimes dogs that are aggressive to other males can live together. In other cases, the aggressive dog has to be rehomed, or the owner has to keep them separated at all times (crate and rotate).



Sonilee said:


> our vet wants to do the procedure, and without having him neutered, most trainers here will not participate with him.


That's bloody ridiculous! Studies have shown neutering has no effect on aggression, and sometimes may even make it worse! 


Sonilee said:


> Are there any good videos or something that teaches how to break him of his anxiety and aggression?


I really don't think this can be fixed by watching videos. Okay, maybe it will teach you to deal with his on-leash reactivity, but the home situation is a different story. Without an experience person actually being able to observe how your dogs interact with one another, it's really impossible to suggest a cure, other than keeping them separated.



Sonilee said:


> Hello everyone, I am new here. I have an 11 Mo 125lb old GSD


German shepherds are not meant to be 125 lb. dogs, especially at 11 months. Put your dog on a diet.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm confused. How old was this dog when you got him? How long has the behavior been progressing? I'm asking because if the dog was adopted from a shelter, it would take several weeks for you to really see the true personality. This behavior may have nothing to do with being attacked. I really doubt seperation anxiety has anything to do with the attack anyways. Dog aggression does not transfer over to people aggression. I think you have more issues happening here that are not related to the attack. 

Neutering will not help anxiety or dog aggression when it's based in fear.


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

It takes around 2 weeks for cortisol to burn off after an extremely stressful event. Take it easy for a bit and don't baby the dog.


----------



## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

Have you tried scent/tracking activities with your dog?
From what you said, this sounds like a dog that's all eyes and ears and stress at this point. Just getting him to use his nose could do him a huge favor.


----------



## Sonilee (2 mo ago)

Thank you everyone so much for your suggestions and support. Judge was given to me at exactly 8 weeks. His behavior started progressing soon very soon after the dog attack. (maybe coincidental, may not be, but that's when it started.) Judge was enormous for a shepherd from the get go. He's part King and part American Shepherd. I knew and still know I have to get a handle on his issues, he's only going to get bigger and stronger, so I know I have to act pretty quickly and I'm willing to do whatever it takes. I did get ahold of a trainer that is willing to work with Judge yesterday and doesn't require him to be neutered. I feel like he's bored with the training I've been giving him, and needs more of a purpose. Hopefully this trainer will can help me to help Judge, and I'll definitely use the suggestions everyone has given.


----------



## Sonilee (2 mo ago)

Chloé&Buck said:


> Have you tried scent/tracking activities with your dog?
> From what you said, this sounds like a dog that's all eyes and ears and stress at this point. Just getting him to use his nose could do him a huge favor.





Chloé&Buck said:


> Have you tried scent/tracking activities with your dog?
> From what you said, this sounds like a dog that's all eyes and ears and stress at this point. Just getting him to use his nose could do him a huge favor.


 I have not, but you are correct, he is all eyes, nose and ears. I will definitely suggest that to the instructor when we meet this weekend.
Thank you


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Ok. Let me work thru this.

You've had him since he was 2 months old. And he was attacked as a puppy 5 days after you got him. He's now 11 months old. The behavior has been progressing as he matures.

So he is 
1. anxious with separation anxiety
2. dog reactive/aggressive (attack may or may not play a role in it), including to his own pack as he matures. 
3. Human aggressive. 

I honestly would not be looking for a specific reason for his behavior. Your dog has nerve issues...full stop. SA and human aggression would not be there if this was 100% related to the attack as a puppy. The dog reactiveness could be related to fear from the attack compounded by poor nerves so he can't recover. 

Your path to sanity is thru obedience and management. Find a trainer that is fair and one that uses balanced methods. At this age, you need to be able to tell him No, this behavior is unacceptable and teach him a management tool. I would not go full on positive only with an 11 month hold that is 125 lbs who has human and dog aggression. Someone is going to get hurt. BUT I also would never do compulsion. You need a trainer that uses all the tools based on the dog in front of them. 

And crate and rotate him if he's being aggressive to your other dogs. Management is key here. As long as he is loose, and fights continue, stress hormones will remain elevated as David pointed out above.


----------



## Sonilee (2 mo ago)

Jax08 said:


> Ok. Let me work thru this.
> 
> You've had him since he was 2 months old. And he was attacked as a puppy 5 days after you got him. He's now 11 months old. The behavior has been progressing as he matures.
> 
> ...


Thank you Jax08 I will be mindful of all of this when I meet with the instructor. Just a question though, and please feel free to be as honest as possible (I just don't want to go 
into something with unrealistic expectations) Do you think a dog like this can honestly change, I guess I mean, is there hope for him? Like I said before, I'll never give up on him, I just want a safe environment for him. I will say I have tried crate training, Judge literally has destroyed 1 cage and 2 crates. If I leave him in my garage with his toys and bed, heclaws, scratches and chews the door down. (That is how bad his separation anxiety is) I know he sounds over the top, and he is, but he can also be very loving and cuddling.
I know the training that he receives is more for me than him. To teach me the tools I need. I just want to know if a dog this reactive has hope?


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I don't think dogs "change". I think you teach them what is acceptable behavior and give them rules. Everything for him should be black and white with zero sliding on your part. Dogs with anxiety thrive on rules. I think his behavior can change based on your rules. Right now he has no idea how to work thru stress. You need to teach him the tools to do so. 

The extreme SA is concerning. I've never had to deal with that. A friend did and she finally euthanized the dog because the demons in his head were just to much for him. She would come home to blood everywhere. And I would say she went above and beyond trying to find a solution. You may have to talk to your vet about medicine for that. Be careful of things like trazadone. That can work great or that can increase anxiety and aggression. Just like in humans where antidepressants/psychotics can have the opposite desired affect.


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I've only encountered a couple dogs where reactivity and SA couldn't be managed successfully. 

The key is consistency. I can't really give advice without hands on the dog but you need to find a good trainer and really be consistent.


----------



## Jaeger2020 (12 mo ago)

I am going to chime in on the separation anxiety and what worked for us.... We went through 2 wire crates and a significantly bent a steel crate. Had a destroyed front door and a few chewed up door knobs. 

First I would recommend a steel crate. If you can afford it, an impact dog crate. Although do check if they make one big enough for a 125lb dog. We wound up going with one of the steel crates from Amazon. However, he did manage to bend it a little. I also had to tie down the top if the crate with bicycle chains since he broke the connectors on top and was able to get out. 

Now for the separation anxiety... We literally had to start leaving for a few seconds to start with. Get out of the house, close the door - come right back in. Incrementally increase time - 3 seconds, 5, seconds, 8 seconds, 12, 15, 20 etc... A few reps of each basically building up to an hour. 

We had a camera pointed at the crate at all times. Any time I would see him building up- pacing, pawing at the crate doors - I would walk right back in and we would take a step back timewise.

It literally took me 3 months to get him to an hour. After that everything was a lot easier. I did 10 -15 minute increments building up to 2 hours. 

As with reactivity, consistency is key. He is 2 and a half now and stays out of the crate when we leave. It was definitely a lot of work!


----------



## Sonilee (2 mo ago)

Jaeger2020 said:


> I am going to chime in on the separation anxiety and what worked for us.... We went through 2 wire crates and a significantly bent a steel crate. Had a destroyed front door and a few chewed up door knobs.
> 
> First I would recommend a steel crate. If you can afford it, an impact dog crate. Although do check if they make one big enough for a 125lb dog. We wound up going with one of the steel crates from Amazon. However, he did manage to bend it a little. I also had to tie down the top if the crate with bicycle chains since he broke the connectors on top and was able to get out.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much, just knowing that someone out there has experienced the same thing and that there is hope out there. I'll get the camera switched out and invest
in a good cage and get to work. I can't thank you enough for the suggestions.


----------



## Jaeger2020 (12 mo ago)

Sonilee said:


> Thank you so much, just knowing that someone out there has experienced the same thing and that there is hope out there. I'll get the camera switched out and invest
> in a good cage and get to work. I can't thank you enough for the suggestions.


This is the type that we got on Amazon. And this exact one doesn't seem to be available anymore. Read the reviews carefully if you decide to go with Amazon. Some of the crates there look strong enough but are really flimsy. Also if your dog is anxious enough to self mutilate then go with the impact one. There are less opportunities for a dog to get caught on something in a crate like that.


----------



## Furbaby's Mum (8 mo ago)

Sonilee said:


> Thank you so much, just knowing that someone out there has experienced the same thing and that there is hope out there. I'll get the camera switched out and invest
> in a good cage and get to work. I can't thank you enough for the suggestions.


This might help you too. I think that is a Ruffland (?) crate in video.


----------



## Jaeger2020 (12 mo ago)

One more thing... the strong crate is for the times that you ABSOLUTELY have to leave him in there. You really want to prevent him from building up to the point of trying to break out of the crate. I was pretty lucky in the fact that in those 3 months it took me to get him used to being crated in a calm state of mind, I only had to leave him a few times where he reached a point of being a nervous wreck. Each of those times we had a setback and had to backtrack to a lower amount of time.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Separation anxiety is caused by owners, changes in behavior following dog attacks are immediate and a dog with solid nerves will generally shrug off a single attack, human aggression is a whole different thing. 
An 11-month-old pup should not be behaving like this and if you have been allowing it for months, he has had a lot of time to practice. 
Find a trainer, be ready to work. Your dog needs rules, structure and a committed owner.


----------



## GSD Friend (May 16, 2021)

Wow, you have a big challenge with Judge. I'll throw my two cents' worth in, even though I'm not the most experienced handler on this site. First, if his reactivity IS a result of being attacked, I'll quote one of the previous balanced trainers I used. She said that when a dog is traumatized by just ONE attack, it takes 100 good training experiences with other dogs to counteract that attack in the dog's mind. I've had my 3rd rescue GSD, Vajra, for a year, and luckily he is not fear reactive with dogs (he's still afraid of new people, but not aggressive). We go to group classes with a balanced trainer in a Santa Fe park and other locations where often 10 out of 15 dogs attending are reactive. So I like to expose my dog to them in a safe environment, with all dogs leashed. The trainer has everyone do a number of exercises that set off the fear-reactive dogs: 1. Everyone lines up in two long rows, 10 feet apart, and each person walks his or her dog down the middle of the gauntlet. 2. Same formation, but now each person walks the dog weaving in and out among all of the other dogs. 3. Then there's what the trainer calls "Times Square," where people and dogs stand in a very large circle, then everyone walks toward the other side, passing multiple dogs as they walk through the center. 4. Next, we all stand in a circle, then gradually advance toward the center a few steps at a time until the dogs are only about 2 feet apart. All of these exercises provoke multiple dogs to lunge, bark, growl, and try to attack. When a dog does this, the owner issues a correction: a jerk on the collar, coupled with "SHHH" or a sharp "AH." And then the owner does a "Reset," turning away and around and bringing the dog back with him/her to the same place--which resets the dog's mind and makes him forget what he was barking and lunging at. Sometimes there are so many dogs reacting, it's funny. Well, to me, anyway because right now I'm lucky to have a nonreactive dog. But my first GSD, Rocco, was 95 pounds and so reactive it was a nightmare. So I feel for anyone with this problem. Back then, I didn't have access to this trainer, so Rocco stayed just as reactive until he died at age 13, despite being crippled with a half-paralyzed spine. Reactivity is a really hard problem to deal with, but most balanced trainers I've known say it's doable.

It would be great if you could find a balanced trainer and a group class like this.

As for separation anxiety, that is one problem my dog Vajra DOES have, to the extreme. He destroyed his bed, bent the steel cage, and from that point on (last spring) I have not left him alone. This is something I really need to work on, but for now, I just put him in daycare in Santa Fe when I shop or have appointments. Luckily, he's good in a group of dogs at Zoomies, or I leave him at my vet's in his own large tiled kennel. I'm hoping he grows out of it, like my first two GSDs. They both had separation anxiety, and I just crated them when I left home. One grew out of it after 6 months, the other after a year--but they weren't as violent as Vajra. He accepts being in his crate alone when I go outside in the yard for up to an hour, but if he hears me leave in the car, he gets crazy and destructive. Anyway, I have hope that Vajra will outgrow the SA, or else I'll have to try some different methods.


----------



## dojoson41 (Oct 14, 2018)

rehome him to a guy with the knowledge and patients who can handle him and has no other dogs might be the best for all especially for the chauweinerschnitzel.


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

GSD Friend said:


> The trainer has everyone do a number of exercises that set off the fear-reactive dogs.


Setting the the dogs up to fail and continuing to practice the reactivity? There must be more to it than described in order for each owner to be successful eliminating the reactivity. Can you explain in more detail?


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Wow. So that just sets the dogs up to fail and uses compulsion to shut down the reaction without any behavior modification to teach them how to deal with stress. That is not something I would ever do to my dog. There are better ways.


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> Wow. So that just sets the dogs up to fail and uses compulsion to shut down the reaction without any behavior modification to teach them how to deal with stress. That is not something I would ever do to my dog. There are better ways.


That's why I'm wondering if there is more to the story.


----------



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Jax08 said:


> Wow. So that just sets the dogs up to fail and uses compulsion to shut down the reaction without any behavior modification to teach them how to deal with stress. That is not something I would ever do to my dog. There are better ways.


I’ve seen and used similar exercises. Depends on a few factors but can but quite successful.


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Bearshandler said:


> I’ve seen and used similar exercises. Depends on a few factors but can but quite successful.


Yes,so have I.But there's more to it than repeatedly allowing the dogs to engage in the behavior. I'm thinking more about "newbies" thinking it's a good idea without more detail from GSD Friend.


----------



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

dogma13 said:


> Yes,so have I.But there's more to it than repeatedly allowing the dogs to engage in the behavior. I'm thinking more about "newbies" thinking it's a good idea without more detail from GSD Friend.





GSD Friend said:


> Everyone lines up in two long rows, 10 feet apart, and each person walks his or her dog down the middle of the gauntlet. 2. Same formation, but now each person walks the dog weaving in and out among all of the other dogs. 3. Then there's what the trainer calls "Times Square," where people and dogs stand in a very large circle, then everyone walks toward the other side, passing multiple dogs as they walk through the center. 4. Next, we all stand in a circle, then gradually advance toward the center a few steps at a time until the dogs are only about 2 feet apart. All of these exercises provoke multiple dogs to lunge, bark, growl, and try to attack. When a dog does this, the owner issues a correction: a jerk on the collar, coupled with "SHHH" or a sharp "AH." And then the owner does a "Reset," turning away and around and bringing the dog back with him/her to the same place--which resets the dog's mind and makes him forget what he was barking and lunging at.


This comment does in fact, say a whole lot more than just letting the dogs blow up. I don’t know why someone would take a single sentence out of context and decide that’s the answer. To come to the conclusion you did, you basically have to ignore the entire comment.


----------



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Just going to throw this out here, as an example of my experience with a reactive dog. There was only one other dog in this class, and it was EXTREMELY reactive. We were in a large gymnasium, and even passing by my dog on the other side of the room would trigger this dog's reactivity. It would jump up, bark and try to get to my dog, even though they were at least 25 or 30 ft. apart.

My dog reacted to this dog's histrionics a couple of times, but I corrected her, and praised her and gave her treats when she settled. I couldn't hear exactly what the instructor was doing with the other dogs, I was focused on my own dog and was too far away, but I am reasonably sure she was doing more or less the same thing with that dog.

As the class progressed, and the other dog began to improve, she had us walk closer together. We did our best to keep the dogs calm and focused on their handlers.

By the end of the class, she had both dogs lying about 8 feet apart, not reacting to each other, and focused on their handlers.  It was AMAZING!!

But I would not want to try this with a large number of reactive dogs in the room at the same time.

Bearshandler, yes, as you can see from my experience, there's a lot more to this sort of training than people took from that one comment.


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Bearshandler said:


> This comment does in fact, say a whole lot more than just letting the dogs blow up. I don’t know why someone would take a single sentence out of context and decide that’s the answer. To come to the conclusion you did, you basically have to ignore the entire comment.


I don't think there's enough information is all.No resolution, just dogs engaging in the unwanted behavior multiple times.I'm beginning to do the same thing myself now


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Well it's relatively easy to do this with a pair of dogs. Some of it is changing the dogs but a lot of it is the dogs getting used to each other. It looks like a miracle in the moment but that doesn't mean it will translate to strange dogs.

The key to changing reactivity is teaching counterproductive behaviors and then proofing them. Then you put in the reps, first with known dogs and then in public.

It can happen quickly but all those steps have to be there to really change how a dog reacts, unless you just shut them down. Some dogs can take that and bounce back, others can't.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

David Winners said:


> Well it's relatively easy to do this with a pair of dogs. Some of it is changing the dogs but a lot of it is the dogs getting used to each other. It looks like a miracle in the moment but that doesn't mean it will translate to strange dogs.
> 
> The key to changing reactivity is teaching counterproductive behaviors and then proofing them. Then you put in the reps, first with known dogs and then in public.
> 
> It can happen quickly but all those steps have to be there to really change how a dog reacts, unless you just shut them down. Some dogs can take that and bounce back, others can't.


10,000% THIS^^


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

The missing piece ^^^^ GSD Friend you waited too long!Dogs need to know what to do _instead_.Don't do that do this.


----------

