# Breeding for Show/Sport



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

As I have written a few posts over the years, lol, it has come to my attention that some folks feel that I'm against showing or competing with their GS in sport.
Nothing is further from the truth, I think both venues are excellent for the breed and necessary to keep the breed strong. They exhibit the strength, versatility, and noble essence of the breed. What I do think is detrimental to the breed; is breeding to WIN in sport or show. There is a difference in my opinion. Because the breed should be moderate and versatile in all aspects, breeding to win in these venues usually leads to creating extremes in the breed, and loss of versatility. Notwithstanding, breeders striving to reach these mountaintops often become very opinionated, very intolerant, and not good ambassadors for the breed except in their small circles. I find this thinking and attitude counter to the widespread versatility and functionality of the breed.
I think good breeders should utilize the show and sport world in exhibiting that their breeding is capable of both form and function.....butbreeding TO win is traveling a slippery slope away from essence of breed.
PS....these thoughts open for discussion are not written to try to change folks that see things differently, but rather to give encouragement to new/future breeders and food for thought to the future breeders.


----------



## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

We've seen what creating extremes has done to other breeds, and it is not pretty. German Shepherd Dogs should be intelligent, clear minded hard working dogs. I think some people are concerned that our dogs are turning into couch potatoes to fit in with families that don't have the time and energy to deal with working type dogs. Although these dogs may be great if the suburban back yard, they don't do well in the sport world and some might wonder if at heart if they are "real" GSDs. 

I've not spent much time with high power GSDs, but I've seen some crazy driven malinois. I personally think that GSDs are so good because they can have that great balance between work and play.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

The GSD "WINS" not because it is a show-up , blah medium dog.

The breed wins because it is not the ultimate best at one thing but excellent at many.
Not a specialist -- a well rounded versatile generalist.

Tough breed to get everything right , IF , you are one of those who consider and incorporate
everything , not neglecting , parts of the make-up . Oh wait that brings one back to drives.

Did Werner Muller compete and breed to win?
Did he have a dog and a program that emphasized excellence?
Do you (general you) like and admire Lord Gleisdreieck?

Great GSD . A "WINNER" for oh so many reasons - in the breed , and in work - and in competition.

Clearly not a dog for everyone -- '


----------



## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

I think you do have to breed to win, however, that's where the standard comes in. If you breed without a goal, as in to win, as in to meet the standard, then you're also not working towards a goal and that is also a way to easily lose sight of where you are going. You should always be breeding to the standard, not to the latest fad or to the latest 'winner' that is out there. I think breeding to the winners in order to get a winner is where we lose. Too many people forgive faults or accept fads if the dog is winning and Judges are just as guilty in putting the dogs up. Sometimes I feel the best breeders are the ones who are out there winning sometimes and losing sometimes, but constantly working to improve both structurally and temperament wise their dogs, be it conformation or sport. They don't tend to have the extreme, but generally well balanced dogs.


----------



## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

From my understanding. A gsd should be above average in every venue, but not the best. Kind of like decathlon athletes. Not a specialist, but a solid performer overall. 
It makes you wonder what we will end up with if current trends are continued. I don't want w mal, I dont want a lab. I want a gsd


----------



## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

cliffson1 said:


> As I have written a few posts over the years, lol, it has come to my attention that some folks feel that I'm against *showing *or *competing with their GS in sport*.
> Nothing is further from the truth, I think both venues are excellent for the breed and necessary to keep the breed strong. They exhibit the strength, versatility, and noble essence of the breed. What I do think is detrimental to the breed; is breeding to WIN in sport or show. There is a difference in my opinion. Because the breed should be moderate and versatile in all aspects, breeding to win in these venues usually leads to creating extremes in the breed, and loss of versatility. Notwithstanding, breeders striving to reach these mountaintops often become very opinionated, very intolerant, and not good ambassadors for the breed except in their small circles. I find this thinking and attitude counter to the widespread versatility and functionality of the breed.
> I think good breeders should utilize the show and sport world in exhibiting that their breeding is capable of both form and function.....butbreeding TO win is traveling a slippery slope away from essence of breed.
> PS....these thoughts open for discussion are not written to try to change folks that see things differently, but rather to give encouragement to new/future breeders and food for thought to the future breeders.


Just to clarify.... are you asking specifically about "Showing" = conformation showing (whether AKC or SV) and "Competing in sport" = IPO? Or a broader question that includes other competitive venues, whether bite sport or otherwise?

There tends to be an automatic assumption that "Sport" = IPO exclusively, I want to make sure I'm not misunderstanding. Thanks!


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I mean conformation( Breed shows/Breed surveys)and IPO trials, because these things were created to assure that the breed were strong in all aspects of the standard. Things like CD/CDX/UD reflect things that a toy poodle can do, thus would not test all aspects of GS working traits.


----------



## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

cliffson1 said:


> I mean conformation( Breed shows/Breed surveys)and IPO trials, because these things were created to assure that the breed were strong in all aspects of the standard. Things like CD/CDX/UD reflect things that a toy poodle can do, thus would not test all aspects of GS working traits.


That definition of "sport" almost sounds like the American lines are cut out of this. Yes, there's conformation, but I have yet to hear of American line dogs doing IPO - so they're relegated to shows?


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Slash the IPO poodleCouldn't resist.


----------



## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

dogma13 said:


> Slash the IPO poodleCouldn't resist.


Now shrink the poodle a whole bunch and make the bark higher pitched...


----------



## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

WateryTart said:


> Now shrink the poodle a whole bunch and make the bark higher pitched...


Wife's Toy poodle. I was going to show him doing protection work but I don't know where the wife put the thimbles. So all you get is a couple barks.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

With all due respect for the person trying to play at sport with her standard poodle, the dog is NOT doing protection work. Dog is doing an obedience exercise for a toy (the sleeve).


----------



## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

lhczth said:


> With all due respect for the person trying to play at sport with her standard poodle, the dog is NOT doing protection work. Dog is doing an obedience exercise for a toy (the sleeve).


Do you think a lot of gsds are playing at sport? Dogs that do well with training?


----------



## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

cliffson1 said:


> I mean conformation( Breed shows/Breed surveys)and IPO trials, because these things were created to assure that the breed were strong in all aspects of the standard. Things like CD/CDX/UD reflect things that a toy poodle can do, thus would not test all aspects of GS working traits.


To be fair (at least in the US) obedience titles would be an amazing start. Imagine if all breeders at least did obedience and health checks. 
Still I agree with what you are saying.


----------



## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

lhczth said:


> With all due respect for the person trying to play at sport with her standard poodle, the dog is NOT doing protection work. Dog is doing an obedience exercise for a toy (the sleeve).





cloudpump said:


> Do you think a lot of gsds are playing at sport? Dogs that do well with training?


 Isn't that what IPO is, a sport. Where the dogs are doing obedience for a reward. I mean we teach them where to bite, how to bite, to hold and be proud of their toy they won. I mean the decoy can even give commands to the dogs. If this was real life then any dog that ran to attack you just yell revere and the dog would just bark and hold. Yes a lot of the IPO dogs could go on to do protection work but a lot of them wouldn't. A lot of them can't even handle real pressure from their friend decoy. Let alone a stranger who means them actual harm. 
I am not knocking IPO. I love training. Bit I also know that an IPO 1,2,3 doesn't make my dog a watch dog. Do I think it is a good baseline in which to build off of Yep.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

The video says slash the poodle in protection. That dog is NOT doing protection work. There is no aggression or power in the barking, no threat from the helper who is his buddy, no power in the bite. And, no, not everyone who does IPO is playing a sleeve game. Are many people doing IPO playing a game? Yes, but anyone with an ounce of respect for the breed is not playing a sleeve game.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

dogma13 said:


> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iB5UjoXJuaU
> Slash the IPO poodleCouldn't resist.


The name!!!!:laugh::laugh:


----------



## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

lhczth said:


> The video says slash the poodle in protection. That dog is NOT doing protection work. There is no aggression or power in the barking, no threat from the helper who is his buddy, no power in the bite. And, no, not everyone who does IPO is playing a sleeve game. Are many people doing IPO playing a game? Yes, but anyone with an ounce of respect for the breed is not playing a sleeve game.


Thanks for answering. Now do you think that gsds that excel are more Mal like?
I'm curious and not attempting to insult anyone.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

WateryTart said:


> That definition of "sport" almost sounds like the American lines are cut out of this. Yes, there's conformation, but I have yet to hear of American line dogs doing IPO - so they're relegated to shows?


herding?


----------



## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Good question Cliffson. Not sure I have a clear answer or opinion. But I will try. 

No. I don't think this breed, developed to be a true utility dog, should ever be bred to "win" at sport(of any kind) or conformation. I think that whenever the focus is specifically on one aspect of the breed as a whole, the breed as a whole is damaged. 

I wish there was a day where the #1 GSD went from an IPO trial to the conformation ring and succeeded in both venues. 

For me the problem with IPO, is that in many many cases it is no longer a true breed test. It has been watered down, flashy has been exhalted, high points are awarded to a dog that puts on a good performance. Can that high point dog also be "real" behind it. Absolutely. But the way the sport is now, it's very tough for the general public to know the difference. So when it's titles are used as a selling point, and as a way to wed out, it makes it tough. Because it no longer(in my opinion in many cases) tells us what is real. It's a sport. We hear all the time " my dog can go hard at the helper, show real power and then 5 minutes later be sitting in the helpers lap, he is very stable". That to me is just wrong. Wrong. If a "person" attacks the handler and the dog, then that person is not to be trusted. A dog that can immediately trust that person the second the sleeve is away, never gave true "power". It's a game. It's become a game. 

Conformation. Well same issue sort of. There is no test of anything other than the how the dog reflects the standard. And I think we have sen how awry that can go. People breed what the judge puts up. There, in many cases, is no further looking into other aspects of the breed. I am sure some breeders do. I know a few myself. But it's not the norm. 

I have more, but I have lost my train of thought.


----------



## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

@gsdsar your quote:

"We hear all the time " my dog can go hard at the helper, show real power and then 5 minutes later be sitting in the helpers lap, he is very stable". That to me is just wrong. Wrong. If a "person" attacks the handler and the dog, then that person is not to be trusted. A dog that can immediately trust that person the second the sleeve is away, never gave true "power". It's a game. It's become a game." 

Yes, the helper that tried to get my dog to do bite work, never made my dog a "pal".... that is until we finally gave it up! LOL! She was doing it like "Slash".

The way I see it, these dogs are supposed to show true aggression, when called on, and then be able to turn it off when commanded, and remain neutral, not be the helper's buddy.


----------



## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

So a bit more rambling, sorry. 

I think other venues besides IPO/bite sport and conformation are not given enough credit for what they show you about a dogs general nature. As a newbie to other types of competition, I have been quite impressed with what i have seen. 

I think some of these can show us a lot in regards to drives not really tested anymore in a basic IPO or conformation venue. 

Noseworks- tests hunt drive and scenting ability( I dont think IPO tracking tests this anymore)

Obedience/Rally- anyone that has ever taken a class or trialed, this can be a real test of a dogs basic nerve strength. How you ask? Try working a dog in drive while 2 other rings are working with 6-7 dogs all doing different things 20 feet apart, retrieving, recalls, barking, dogs walking around, people hollering across the arena. It actually a bit stressful. The IPO field is actually pretty sterile in comparison. 2 dogs, 1 judge, some quiet spectators(in lower venues). Try keeping a dog focused when a retrieve throw goes awry and the other dog slams into the chicken fencing between the rings. AKC obedience events are not sterile. I have also seen the crazy high drive Mal that needs to be constantly entertained while in that environment. While my boy sleeps at my feet until its our turn.

Barn hunt- again, hunt drive, control, minor agility, again, dogs working in drive one ring away, barking, clapping hollering. Its a loud and often confusing environment.

Agility- working in drive, taking quick and constant direction, agility!!

SAR- well thats a whole other post

Therapy- strong nerve, weird noises and smells, slippery floors, strange jerky movements, walkers, wheelchairs

These things can all tell you a lot about a dog. Can they tell you if a dog has the courage to protect? No. probably not. But they should not be discounted just because they lack that one portion. They are not insiginificant. And all things considered, IPO cant really tell you that either. Not the way it is now.

I am not down on IPO. I think it it valuable in learning a lot about the dog, but it also means knowing that person that is using it as a test, are truly using it as that, and they are not training to the test, but actually testing their dogs, pushing them. And I think thats where it beccme murky. We have put such a "high value" on IPO titles that people are scared(maybe not the right word) to look beyond it. Its the benchmark.

One of the best dogs I have ever owned came from an IPO1 male and an untitled female. that pairing created 2 certified SAR dogs, 2 police dogs(one award winning) and multiple obedience competitors. Had I followed the general rule of "IPO titles on both parents" I would never have gotten that dog and my life would be less because of it. Truely. 

As I slowly start my search for a new GSD (3 years away) I have a very short list of breeders. Not all of them are actively competing in IPO or show. I am looking at a program as a whole. I am looking for well rounded programs. I am looking for a solid understanding of the female lines and a breeder that has been breeding those female lines for generations. I am looking for success of previous breeding in multiple venues. I want the dog that I can try lots of things with. I want a dog that can go anywhere with me and live peacefully in my home with cats and other dogs. I want a dog that I can enjoy in anything I want to do. I want a dog that does not require 8 miles of exercise a day to settle. It wont happen in happen in my house. I want a good all around dog.


----------



## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

onyx'girl said:


> herding?


This is the one thing I wish more GSD breeders cared about. 

I know in 2017 there aren't a whole lot of options to work dogs on stock... but if you want a good all around balanced dog, there are not a whole lot of better venues to prove them in. True tests of the dog's courage, intelligence, discernment, intuition, and working partnership with it's handler. Neither prey monkeys nor nerve bags make for good herding dogs - good handling can make up for these flaws in other venues, but the dog's true character shines when you are dealing with the unexpected that can come from working the dog on other thinking and feeling beasts.


----------



## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

voodoolamb said:


> This is the one thing I wish more GSD breeders cared about.


I was just at a conformation show in WV Thurs-Sun (driving back and forth). On Thursday, after we were done showing, all the dogs were loaded up, we drove three hours into OH, and spent the rest of the day working stock.

I worked four dogs twice, was pretty sure I was going to die, could barely walk by the time I got home...worth it.

My GCH bitch has her HT, my CH has his HT, my CH pointed bitch has her HT and we have officially started working towards her HSAs after several months off. The CH male will get his PT, but unfortunately that is all the money I'll likely be able to put into him for herding, as my priority for stock titles is his sister. It's not cheap to do and I just don't have the finances to work more than one dog to a high level.

He'll probably get some lower level titles (RN, maybe a CD, need to find somebody to do his AD), and people will poo poo them, but I've hit the point where I think they can jump off a ledge if it's not good enough for them. I'm doing what I can with the time and finances I've got.

I love showing in conformation. People here know that. I'm not going to stop doing it, and am aiming for a Top 20 dog next year...but I don't value it the way I value stock work.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I need a break, sigh, it's so frustrating. My post was not to mandate titling in either show or IPO in the United States. My post was trying to get people to see that to be honest to the breed more so than their personal likes, than they will breed for the type of dog in the standard. NOT some aspects of the standard, but all of the standard as close as they can come. Shows/sports can HELP in this endeavor ( in maintaining form/function; and objective analysis of all aspects) as long as people don't breed for one aspect at the expense of others. I didn't mention lines, so I wasn't excluding lines, now if certain lines can't consistently do some aspects of the standard, that's the line's shortcoming, not the fault of the standard. Lines and individual likes I have not found in the standard, so why would an ethical breeder allow either of these to pull them away from the standard. Shows/trials can help breeders as long as breeding isn't centered on trials and on shows, because it steers people toward specialization or breeding for what wins or worse breeding for what uninformed people want. I know fabulous breeders that don't title or show their stock, but they train their stock and they constantly bring in BALANCE into their breeding to maintain that they stay centered on the standard. THEY understand the standard, but more importantly they respect the standard, and use it as a guide to not get kennel blindness about their dogs. 
Anyway, though I understand the futility of some of my posts, if just some new people objectively consider if what I write makes sense and are not swayed by Glory.....then it will be worth it.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

"For me the problem with IPO, is that in many many cases it is no longer a true breed test. It has been watered down, flashy has been exhalted, high points are awarded to a dog that puts on a good performance. Can that high point dog also be "real" behind it. Absolutely. But the way the sport is now, it's very tough for the general public to know the difference. "

Could anyone explain this more to me? Has IPO changed? The dogs? The handling? What's been changed?


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

"Noseworks- tests hunt drive and scenting ability( I dont think IPO tracking tests this anymore)"

Did IPO tracking not used to be like it is now?


----------



## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

WateryTart said:


> That definition of "sport" almost sounds like the American lines are cut out of this. Yes, there's conformation, but I have yet to hear of American line dogs doing IPO - so they're relegated to shows?


We had a club member who did back to back BH and IPO1 ( two different days) with her American Show Line. And they scored well. It was a club trial but still, they looked great .


----------



## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

cliffson1 said:


> I need a break, sigh, it's so frustrating. My post was not to mandate titling in either show or IPO in the United States. My post was trying to get people to see that to be honest to the breed more so than their personal likes, than they will breed for the type of dog in the standard.
> Anyway, though I understand the futility of some of my posts, if just some new people objectively consider if what I write makes sense and are not swayed by Glory.....then it will be worth it.


It seems to me that most people are responding that Yes, this dog was meant to be a well balance all round good dog. That is the standard and if breeders strive for that, our dogs will continue to be good dogs. The problem is in how we test the dogs. That is where our personal preferences come in.


----------



## ubercake (Apr 16, 2017)

As a shopper looking for a German Shepherd dog, I agree that titles both before and after the registered name should be more emphasized in a breeding program. It seems like many breeders either focus on working or show only? Are there breeders out there that focus on trying to bring the best of both worlds together (conformation and work?)? It seems like this intersection is where we'd find the "real" GSD?


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> "For me the problem with IPO, is that in many many cases it is no longer a true breed test. It has been watered down, flashy has been exhalted, high points are awarded to a dog that puts on a good performance. Can that high point dog also be "real" behind it. Absolutely. But the way the sport is now, it's very tough for the general public to know the difference. "
> 
> Could anyone explain this more to me? Has IPO changed? The dogs? The handling? What's been changed?


The sport has become about the training and not is what in the heart of the dog. A very biddable dog can and will do fine in the sport, go through the exercises perfectly. 
Dogs that are powerful and with a bit of their own mind are not as easily conformed...yet they do well in the protection phase as long as they have clear head and control. Not many trainers want a dog like that however.
They'd rather have a pup that will do what is asked and do it without compulsion. 

I don't think the "general public" knows squat about IPO(schutzhund). Even people that have this breed aren't really aware of the sport, unless they are in an area with many clubs. I am in a local GSD fb page(1200+ members) and I would guess that only about 20 of us(generous number) actively train and trial in the sport.

Yet puppy buyers may think seeing those titles behind the breeding parents makes it all better, but haven't really got a clue what is involved in the training to earn titles. 

I would still like to see SDA take off, as it is more about the dog and less about the trainer. Tracking should be promoted more in SDA, often it isn't something that everyone will do, yet they can still earn titles without tracking.


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

ubercake said:


> As a shopper looking for a German Shepherd dog, I agree that titles both before and after the registered name should be more emphasized in a breeding program. It seems like many breeders either focus on working or show only? Are there breeders out there that focus on trying to bring the best of both worlds together (conformation and work?)? It seems like this intersection is where we'd find the "real" GSD?


Agreed!Human egos and $$ results in breeding for extremes.It's unfortunately true regarding many species.Dogs,horses,cats,etc.
The breeders striving to stay at the "intersection" are out of the spotlight and often overlooked and not taken seriously.


----------



## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

I have respect for breeders I've met who have titled individual dogs and then decided *NOT* to breed them, because the particular dog doesn't bring every desired element to the table.

And I'm talking about several different venues. That, to me, is objective evidence that those breeders care more about the big picture of the breed, instead of titling as a carte blanche to breed the dog.


----------



## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> herding?


I thought of that and I know some ASL breeders who do herding, or have. But it didn't sound like cliff thought that was legit. It wasn't the One True Sport.


----------



## ubercake (Apr 16, 2017)

When I think of the word "Shepherd", I think of herding. Is that wrong?


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

cloudpump said:


> Thanks for answering. Now do you think that gsds that excel are more Mal like?
> I'm curious and not attempting to insult anyone.


Not always. I am lucky to train in a club that happens to like really strong GSD and handlers that know how to train these dogs (plus great coaches). Their handlers get the flash, much of the time, while the dogs still show what real power and aggression is in both obedience and protection. Are Mal like dogs doing well and winning at times? Yes, of course, but really strong dogs are still winning and excelling in IPO. Case in point would be the team/dog that just won the AWDF championships. We have three teams heading to the WDC this week and all three of those dogs are extremely strong dogs. They are not playing a sleeve game yet all three are very capable of being on the podium at national and world events. 

Something I often see is that strong solid GSD can't WIN. When has it become only about winning? No good breeder with a long standing breeding program has ever bred to dogs just because they were on the podium. Well, maybe here in the USA, where advertising and wins do influence buyers and breeders alike, but smart breeders use the dogs that best fit their females. That male may be a podium dog or it may have been a totally unknown dog. The difficult thing with breeding in this country is that the podium dogs are the most seen (actually world wide that would be an issue) so the most used. Lesser known dogs aren't used unless a breeder lucks out and hears about them through the grapevine. I lucked out to find Hannes, the sire of my D litter. I also lucked out to find Athos, the sire of my F litter. Anyhow, back onto what I was trying to say.... I know in Europe, dogs that are used are often dogs that are local. The breeders see the dog, get to work the dog, see offspring from people willing to risk using a young unknown dog and buyers buy their puppies. They have tons of clubs and see a lot of pups. Here we see very few if any offspring from males, no one uses the young unknown males or they are used so infrequently that we don't get to see enough pups to make decisions. Our country is huge and the breeding and sport culture is different. Europe uses males that they can see personally or who have proven they can produce. Here, we often wait for the next big named import that we have never seen in person and then everyone breeds their females (often also purchased titled) to that male whether he is suitable or not. My next litter will be from an IPO2 male that will probably never be on the podium and may not even make it to a national event due to his owner's work obligations. This is a breeding I have wanted to do since both dogs were puppies. I really want to breed to the dog that just won the AWDF. Not because he won a championship, but because I have been training with the dog day in and day out for the last year and love who the dog is. Of course when I do breed to him I'll be accused of using him because of his wins. :surprise:


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Herding for the GSD, the type of herding that a GSD should do, that actually tests the GSD is limited to one trial and one location in the USA. It is pretty limited now even in Germany and has become more an obedience exercise than a true test of the dog. 

IMO there are other protection "sports" that do test our breed like the first couple of levels in PSA and some of the SD work. Add in nose work, SAR, advanced tracking, or detection work and you would still be testing the versatility of the GSD. While my interest is mostly in the areas of scent work, I do IPO because it is the most readily available and recognized and is the only "sport" that actually tests dogs in three phases and isn't as specialized as many other "sports" mentioned previous by me and others. 

As Cliff, I believe, tried to point out, it isn't about breeding for one area. We should not be breeding for police dogs, detection/scent dogs, service dogs, therapy dogs, pets, sport dogs, conformation dogs. We should be breeding for German Shepherd Dogs, a utilitarian working dog. Jack of all trades, master of none.


----------



## ubercake (Apr 16, 2017)

lhczth said:


> Herding for the GSD, the type of herding that a GSD should do, that actually tests the GSD is limited to one trial and one location in the USA. It is pretty limited now even in Germany and has become more an obedience exercise than a true test of the dog.
> 
> IMO there are other protection "sports" that do test our breed like the first couple of levels in PSA and some of the SD work. Add in nose work, SAR, advanced tracking, or detection work and you would still be testing the versatility of the GSD. While my interest is mostly in the areas of scent work, I do IPO because it is the most readily available and recognized and is the only "sport" that actually tests dogs in three phases and isn't as specialized as many other "sports" mentioned previously by me and others.
> 
> As Cliff, I believe, tried to point out, it isn't about breeding for one area. We should not be breeding for police dogs, detection/scent dogs, service dogs, therapy dogs, pets, sport dogs, conformation dogs. We should be breeding for German Shepherd Dogs, a utilitarian working dog. Jack of all trades, master of none.


I like it!


----------



## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

ubercake said:


> When I think of the word "Shepherd", I think of herding. Is that wrong?


If herding interests you, please get involved. Even if you're just spectating. Volunteer to run the stopwatch or scribe for the judge - you will learn so much about dogs. 

There are a diversity of courses, venues, and types of stock out there. It is not just HGH vs. AKC, I want to bang my head against the wall when I hear that repeated over and over and over. 

AHBA has Ranch Large Flock (three levels, plus many other courses, including options to trial with mixed stock in large flock). AKC is considering adding a ranch class, I believe they're voting this week. Many ASCA trials allow GSD entries at all levels and on all types of stock.

If there is interest and demand, all of the herding venues will grow.


----------



## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

lhczth said:


> Not always. I am lucky to train in a club that happens to like really strong GSD and handlers that know how to train these dogs (plus great coaches). Their handlers get the flash, much of the time, while the dogs still show what real power and aggression is in both obedience and protection. Are Mal like dogs doing well and winning at times? Yes, of course, but really strong dogs are still winning and excelling in IPO. Case in point would be the team/dog that just won the AWDF championships. We have three teams heading to the WDC this week and all three of those dogs are extremely strong dogs. They are not playing a sleeve game yet all three are very capable of being on the podium at national and world events.
> 
> Something I often see is that strong solid GSD can't WIN. When has it become only about winning? No good breeder with a long standing breeding program has ever bred to dogs just because they were on the podium. Well, maybe here in the USA, where advertising and wins do influence buyers and breeders alike, but smart breeders use the dogs that best fit their females. That male may be a podium dog or it may have been a totally unknown dog. The difficult thing with breeding in this country is that the podium dogs are the most seen (actually world wide that would be an issue) so the most used. Lesser known dogs aren't used unless a breeder lucks out and hears about them through the grapevine. I lucked out to find Hannes, the sire of my D litter. I also lucked out to find Athos, the sire of my F litter. Anyhow, back onto what I was trying to say.... I know in Europe, dogs that are used are often dogs that are local. The breeders see the dog, get to work the dog, see offspring from people willing to risk using a young unknown dog and buyers buy their puppies. They have tons of clubs and see a lot of pups. Here we see very few if any offspring from males, no one uses the young unknown males or they are used so infrequently that we don't get to see enough pups to make decisions. Our country is huge and the breeding and sport culture is different. Europe uses males that they can see personally or who have proven they can produce. Here, we often wait for the next big named import that we have never seen in person and then everyone breeds their females (often also purchased titled) to that male whether he is suitable or not. My next litter will be from an IPO2 male that will probably never be on the podium and may not even make it to a national event due to his owner's work obligations. This is a breeding I have wanted to do since both dogs were puppies. I really want to breed to the dog that just won the AWDF. Not because he won a championship, but because I have been training with the dog day in and day out for the last year and love who the dog is. Of course when I do breed to him I'll be accused of using him because of his wins. :surprise:



I sometimes wonder if the breed has gotten too far from what it was originally bred for. You keep reading about high drive, aggression, IPO titles, but how many of these dogs actually then go home and are living in the house with family and children, other animals big and small? It appears that people see only the high drive protection/IPO GSD or the Golden in a GSD suit. The GSD is high in popularity and always has been, why? Because families want a dog that is protective when needed but able to live with the family safely with their children, other pets and/or stock. What lines to they go to today to find that dog? You keep reading about GSDs needing a 'good handler', are most families 'good handlers'? Are all pet owners needing to be handlers to have a GSD? Are most breeders wanting their GSDs to only go to 'good handlers' who compete with them? Are their dogs able to be 'just a pet'? GSDs are supposed to be well rounded, able to do multiple jobs, but sadly, I'm not so sure that's true nowadays.


----------



## ubercake (Apr 16, 2017)

Deb said:


> I sometimes wonder if the breed has gotten too far from what it was originally bred for. You keep reading about high drive, aggression, IPO titles, but how many of these dogs actually then go home and are living in the house with family and children, other animals big and small? It appears that people see only the high drive protection/IPO GSD or the Golden in a GSD suit. The GSD is high in popularity and always has been, why? Because families want a dog that is protective when needed but able to live with the family safely with their children, other pets and/or stock. What lines to they go to today to find that dog? You keep reading about GSDs needing a 'good handler', are most families 'good handlers'? Are all pet owners needing to be handlers to have a GSD? Are most breeders wanting their GSDs to only go to 'good handlers' who compete with them? Are their dogs able to be 'just a pet'? GSDs are supposed to be well rounded, able to do multiple jobs, but sadly, I'm not so sure that's true nowadays.


It seems like the ultimate utility dog is the one we can train to do what is required of it (again I'm merely a person seeking a GSD right now). Do you require a herding dog? Tracking dog? Protection dog? Therapy dog? House dog? Exercise partner? Companion? etc...

"Utility and intelligence," right?

I think the draw to the GSD is it can be any of these things we need if we put in the time with it.


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Deb said:


> lhczth said:
> 
> 
> > Not always. I am lucky to train in a club that happens to like really strong GSD and handlers that know how to train these dogs (plus great coaches). Their handlers get the flash, much of the time, while the dogs still show what real power and aggression is in both obedience and protection. Are Mal like dogs doing well and winning at times? Yes, of course, but really strong dogs are still winning and excelling in IPO. Case in point would be the team/dog that just won the AWDF championships. We have three teams heading to the WDC this week and all three of those dogs are extremely strong dogs. They are not playing a sleeve game yet all three are very capable of being on the podium at national and world events.
> ...


I've only had two litters. My foundation female is a glorified pet, who I've competed with in IPO and trailed in AKC obedience and UKI agility. Out of the 16 total puppies produced, some are in IPO and mondio homes, some are in AKC obedience homes, some are actually HERDING, and some are just pets, living with dogs and children daily. It's absolutely not impossible, or even all that hard to find. I think it's a common misconception spouted by breeders who make excuses for the type of dogs they produced. They need reason to justify either the unbalanced temperament that makes them unstable as pets, or the lack of overall nerve strength and drive that makes them unsuitable for sport or work.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Deb said:


> I sometimes wonder if the breed has gotten too far from what it was originally bred for. You keep reading about high drive, aggression, IPO titles, but how many of these dogs actually then go home and are living in the house with family and children, other animals big and small? It appears that people see only the high drive protection/IPO GSD or the Golden in a GSD suit. The GSD is high in popularity and always has been, why? Because families want a dog that is protective when needed but able to live with the family safely with their children, other pets and/or stock. What lines to they go to today to find that dog? You keep reading about GSDs needing a 'good handler', are most families 'good handlers'? Are all pet owners needing to be handlers to have a GSD? Are most breeders wanting their GSDs to only go to 'good handlers' who compete with them? Are their dogs able to be 'just a pet'? GSDs are supposed to be well rounded, able to do multiple jobs, but sadly, I'm not so sure that's true nowadays.


IMO (and I noticed Alexis pretty much said the same thing as i am about to) this is an excuse for breeders to breed a low drive, soft, poorly motivated couch potato for the pet market that wants a dog that looks like a GSD, but does not have the heart of a GSD. Balance. We should always be breeding balance. Should everyone own a GSD? No. They are an intelligent breed developed to work and to be protective. They need an owner that understands this. Can many GSD, a huge percentage of well bred GSD, settle nicely into an active pet home? Yes. They do it every day. People talk about drive because a GSD should have the drive to want to work. People talk about aggression because the GSD should be protective when called upon to be so. We also talk about nerves, something that is often forgotten by those whose dogs never leave their yards, because without nerves our dogs are useless in work or as pets. We talk about guidability because the GSD should be a willing dog that wants to work with its owner. 

I have been involved with working dogs, mostly GSD, for a long time and have watched all of the working breeds slowly destroyed, nerves weakened, willingness weakened, drives lost all because people claimed that society no longer needs them. Society just wants pets. Meanwhile the Malinois is replacing the GSD as the ultimate working dog at least until the pet market gets hold of them too and attempts to destroy them. $$$$$$$$


----------



## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Making the assumption that few dogs are perfect examples of the breed and that health has to be considered, and that temperament is always key to maintaining a working breed.... how do you find that balance between sire/dam? What are you looking at, what takes priority, what's less important while still breeding to the standard? It really seems like a daunting task and while we know some breeders do it and do it well, it seems like the odds of screwing up a working breed are pretty high.

On a lighter note...I think making a working dog do a 30 minute down in the middle of a flyball arena would be a good test of nerves.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Whiteshepherds said:


> On a lighter note...I think making a working dog do a 30 minute down in the middle of a flyball arena would be a good test of nerves.


Nope, just obedience.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I think the most successful breeders understand not just the phenotype (the dogs themselves) of the dogs, but the genotype, the genetics that comes from their parents, grandparents, etc. When all things are considered along with maintaining balance in the genotype of nerves, drives and health, puppies are less of a crap shoot and more consistency breeders are able to maintain in the breed. Balance. There must always be balance.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

car2ner said:


> I personally think that GSDs are so good because they can have that great balance between work and play.


Yes! Deja's breeder told me, "She can do it all." And she does. She is driven when needed, service dog mentality when I am not feeling well, sweet and intense at the same time, alert but not aggressive. I know we all think that we have the best dog and I am not any different. Oh, and I admire her beauty and built. I think she is a good example of a good GSD. (Does squirrel-hunting take points off? :grin2: )


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

On a lighter note...I think making a working dog do a 30 minute down in the middle of a flyball arena would be a good test of nerves.


And then Lisa said "Nope, just obedience"

I laughed . I was going to say , no - just compliance and self control.


----------



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Wolfy, one advantage of the squirrel thing is it's a great way to get their ears up for a photo! It never failed with the GSD I had for 15 1/2 years. Even when it was dark outside, when we said the 'sq' word, she'd run to the window, and look outside, checking for the critters! LOL!


----------



## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

lhczth said:


> IMO (and I noticed Alexis pretty much said the same thing as i am about to) *this is an excuse for breeders to breed a low drive, soft, poorly motivated couch potato for the pet market that wants a dog that looks like a GSD, but does not have the heart of a GSD.* Balance. We should always be breeding balance. Should everyone own a GSD? No. They are an intelligent breed developed to work and to be protective. They need an owner that understands this. Can many GSD, a huge percentage of well bred GSD, settle nicely into an active pet home? Yes. They do it every day. People talk about drive because a GSD should have the drive to want to work. People talk about aggression because the GSD should be protective when called upon to be so. We also talk about nerves, something that is often forgotten by those whose dogs never leave their yards, because without nerves our dogs are useless in work or as pets. We talk about guidability because the GSD should be a willing dog that wants to work with its owner.
> 
> I have been involved with working dogs, mostly GSD, for a long time and have watched all of the working breeds slowly destroyed, nerves weakened, willingness weakened, drives lost all because people claimed that society no longer needs them. Society just wants pets. Meanwhile the Malinois is replacing the GSD as the ultimate working dog at least until the pet market gets hold of them too and attempts to destroy them. $$$$$$$$



That's part of my point. And what uber said. The bolded part. A lot of people are simply back yard breeding and the result is a lot of weak nerved dogs that are not the best of pets and not what the breed should be. And then you have the other end where there are many GSDs who live in kennels and work in IPO, etc., but don't live in the house. How do the breeders know how these dogs will be as house dogs, is their activity level, drives too much to settle? I've seen these dogs as well. I think in honesty we all have. As you said, balance is the key. But I'm not sure how many are really breeding for balance. Some breed for pets. Some breed for wins. How many breed for balance? I think it's hard for the non-dog person to find the right breeder who breeds for balance, a GSD that can do it all.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

If potential buyers would actually research breeders they could see who is breeding for balance and for a GSD that can do it all. Yet now and then, the breeder may have a dog that can't do it all...or has some health issues. But looking at what a breeder has actually produced for a couple of generations from their own foundation will hopefully reduce the odds of that. It isn't that hard to find a breeder that does it right. It is super easy to find a breeder that does it all wrong. I guess it all comes down to homework, research and actually putting some time into all that. 
Once someone actually sees a dog that is what the breed should be for real, the bar is raised. Buyers need to be held accountable, IMO...they are really the future of this breed as much as the breeder is.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Competition dogs that spend their lives in kennels, at least in the states, are not as common as people want to believe. It is more common in Europe and always has been yet they used to, and still do, produce very balanced working dogs. The people I visited kept their dogs as house dogs, at least the GSD owners. Don't know about the Mali owners since I didn't talk that much with them.


----------



## ubercake (Apr 16, 2017)

onyx'girl said:


> If potential buyers would actually research breeders they could see who is breeding for balance and for a GSD that can do it all. Yet now and then, the breeder may have a dog that can't do it all...or has some health issues. But looking at what a breeder has actually produced for a couple of generations from their own foundation will hopefully reduce the odds of that. It isn't that hard to find a breeder that does it right. It is super easy to find a breeder that does it all wrong. I guess it all comes down to homework, research and actually putting some time into all that.
> Once someone actually sees a dog that is what the breed should be for real, the bar is raised. Buyers need to be held accountable, IMO...they are really the future of this breed as much as the breeder is.


I can tell you that I've been researching breeders through web sites and phone calls since around November of last year.
There aren't many breeders that will admit they do it wrong. Most will tell you they can get the exact dog for which you are looking (and I bet some actually can!).
I've just started visiting breeders and kennels within the last month. Until I started doing this, they all seemed amazing. I'm finding the breeder/kennel visit, although it absorbs a lot of time for travel, is crucial finding out really what the breeder is all about and them finding out what I'm all about as a customer.

Also, since there is mention of genotype in this thread, do some breeders actually work with geneticists? Or is there another method behind determining the actual genetic makeup of the breeding stock? Otherwise, it would seem most breeders are making best guesses? Please excuse my ignorance in this matter as I still think I'm new to this whole thing.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

"There aren't many breeders that will admit they do it wrong. Most will tell you they can get the exact dog for which you are looking (and I bet some actually can!)."

Yeah, I have to say, I don't think it's really that easy to know and to find what you then know you need to find. 

I am excluding people who have been members of IPO clubs for years in that statement, and more referring to average people who think they'd like to add a GSD to their lives.


----------



## ubercake (Apr 16, 2017)

lhczth said:


> Competition dogs that spend their lives in kennels, at least in the states, are not as common as people want to believe. It is more common in Europe and always has been yet they used to, and still do, produce very balanced working dogs. The people I visited kept their dogs as house dogs, at least the GSD owners. Don't know about the Mali owners since I didn't talk that much with them.


Someone I work with told me a story about a GSD trained as a police dog that resided with the K9-unit officer to which it was assigned, but had to be kept in the garage when not at work and not around the immediate family. If the family had house guests or even a babysitter, the dog had to be put in the garage. That seems wrong to me.

Does this indicate a low threshold for the defense drive? Is a dog like this suitable for this the K9 unit job? I guess there could be a reason for making the entire life of the dog about the job when it comes to a K9 dog. Or does this seem wrong?


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

ubercake said:


> Someone I work with told me a story about a GSD trained as a police dog that resided with the K9-unit officer to which it was assigned, but had to be kept in the garage when not at work and not around the immediate family. If the family had house guests or even a babysitter, the dog had to be put in the garage. That seems wrong to me.
> 
> Does this indicate a low threshold for the defense drive? Is a dog like this suitable for this the K9 unit job? I guess there could be a reason for making the entire life of the dog about the job when it comes to a K9 dog. Or does this seem wrong?


I don't think it's necessarily wrong. #1, it could be a liability thing for the department given the dog's training. This is purely conjecture from me. But even having a dog who competes or trains in a bite sport is not without some liability risk for the owner and that is not on the same level as what police k9s do in training I don't think.

I know Slamdunc has talked about this issue before, I wish I remembered where, I'd direct you to what he said. But I know it was something to the effect that if he lived alone, one of his k9s could be fine in the house with him but I think he said due to wife, maybe other family, I can't recall, that dog was not okay to be casually living with anyone other than him so he has a kennel.


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

ubercake said:


> Someone I work with told me a story about a GSD trained as a police dog that resided with the K9-unit officer to which it was assigned, but had to be kept in the garage when not at work and not around the immediate family. If the family had house guests or even a babysitter, the dog had to be put in the garage. That seems wrong to me.
> 
> Does this indicate a low threshold for the defense drive? Is a dog like this suitable for this the K9 unit job? I guess there could be a reason for making the entire life of the dog about the job when it comes to a K9 dog. Or does this seem wrong?


It's too much liability to have the trained K9 mingling like that. Its not a reflection of the dog itself, but more of a reflection of our sue happy mentality as a society. There are incidents of police dogs that have inappropriately attacked someone in or outside the home, and those few incidents will dictate the way the future dogs are handled.


----------



## ubercake (Apr 16, 2017)

GatorDog said:


> It's too much liability to have the trained K9 mingling like that. Its not a reflection of the dog itself, but more of a reflection of our sue happy mentality as a society. There are incidents of police dogs that have inappropriately attacked someone in or outside the home, and those few incidents will dictate the way the future dogs are handled.


That makes sense. It's all about the lawyers.


----------



## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

lhczth said:


> Competition dogs that spend their lives in kennels, at least in the states, are not as common as people want to believe. It is more common in Europe and always has been yet they used to, and still do, produce very balanced working dogs. The people I visited kept their dogs as house dogs, at least the GSD owners. Don't know about the Mali owners since I didn't talk that much with them.



I think it's more common here than you realize. When I was researching most had one or two in the house, but all others were outside, not in the house.


----------



## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

lhczth, I'm not saying there aren't good breeders. But think about it, there are how many people breeding GSDs? Thousands? A hundred thousand when you include BYBs? How many of these would you buy a dog from? When I said my first comment, this is what I'm talking about. I think you're being defensive about the GSD, so am I, but we're both going at it from different aspects.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

@Deb, I actually hate this breed for the reasons that so many people are breeding nervy junk and dogs that are not GSD at heart. I also love this breed for what it can be and should be and the great dogs I have owned and experienced in my several decades working GSD. 

I used to assist KP classes and we very very rarely saw a good GSD puppy. Maybe one nice one per year. Not nice for me to own, but at least it didn't come into class raging at the other puppies or hiding under its owner's chair. I know this breed has problems due to not just greed, but a general lack of knowledge about the GSD. 

I see next to no breedings per year that interest me. That doesn't mean that the breeders are doing it wrong. Just means that the breedings aren't what I want.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

ubercake said:


> I can tell you that I've been researching breeders through web sites and phone calls since around November of last year.
> There aren't many breeders that will admit they do it wrong. Most will tell you they can get the exact dog for which you are looking (and I bet some actually can!).


There are breeders that know how to talk and then there are breeders that actually know what they are doing. The proof is in the pudding. Are these breeders actually out there with their dogs or do they just know how to make claims? 




ubercake said:


> Also, since there is mention of genotype in this thread, do some breeders actually work with geneticists? Or is there another method behind determining the actual genetic makeup of the breeding stock? Otherwise, it would seem most breeders are making best guesses? Please excuse my ignorance in this matter as I still think I'm new to this whole thing.


When I say "genotype" I am talking about the genetics brought down through the parents, grandparents, etc. It is a matter of knowing and understanding the dogs behind your dog and what they are bringing to the picture when doing a breeding. The longer you breed and the more dogs you actually see in person teaches you what to expect. Will the breeder be 100% correct in their assessment? Of course not, but it does increase the odds a lot of having a high percentage of the pups turn out the way you want them too.


----------



## ubercake (Apr 16, 2017)

lhczth said:


> @Deb, I actually hate this breed for the reasons that so many people are breeding nervy junk and dogs that are not GSD at heart. I also love this breed for what it can be and should be and the great dogs I have owned and experienced in my several decades working GSD.
> 
> I used to assist KP classes and we very very rarely saw a good GSD puppy. Maybe one nice one per year. Not nice for me to own, but at least it didn't come into class raging at the other puppies or hiding under its owner's chair. I know this breed has problems due to not just greed, but a general lack of knowledge about the GSD.
> 
> I see next to no breedings per year that interest me. That doesn't mean that the breeders are doing it wrong. Just means that the breedings aren't what I want.


It's really that bad? That's really sad. I had no idea. 
I will definitely follow the advice of you and others here when choosing my dog next year. That will help me make the most of my time.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I know a lot of K9 dogs that actively engage with their handlers family. Just in county I live, three out of six patrol dogs for county live in house with family. I know others also throughout South Jersey. ?*♀


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

I'm know several of our local K9s go home with the officer. A deputy who was promoted to detective was allowed to retire his very successful K9 partner early and keep him as a pet. Not sure of all the details, but in part this was ok'd due to how many injuries the dog had sustained during his career. Should add, the injuries were job related and not genetic.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Nigel, these must be exceptions?.


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

cliffson1 said:


> Nigel, these must be exceptions?.


The last fundraiser was to rebuild the kennels so I assume most K9s stay there when not working.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I know many/most municipalities don't have kennels....the dog goes home with handler. Probably half are in kennel at house, and other half live in house. ( I'm speaking of German Shepherds not Malinois)


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

cliffson1 said:


> I know many/most municipalities don't have kennels....the dog goes home with handler. Probably half are in kennel at house, and other half live in house. ( I'm speaking of German Shepherds not Malinois)


Had to go back at look at the fundraiser fb post. It says the K9s do live with the handlers, but are needed for when officers go out of town and for use by out of town departments when they come in to train. Also noticed this is the city kennel, not sure if our Sheriffs dept has one.


----------



## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> But I know it was something to the effect that if he lived alone, one of his k9s could be fine in the house with him but I think he said due to wife, maybe other family, I can't recall, that dog was not okay to be casually living with anyone other than him so he has a kennel.


 I recall reading that post your talking about. If I recall the dog he was referring to had some serious aggression or something and he was able to channel it into something functional. But it wasn't a family dog regardless of it being a K9.


----------



## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

A German Shepherd able to live with his handlers family and do his job when asked should be no big deal. Personal protection dogs do this very thing daily. It seems to be more of a mind set or training philosophy. Some people think that it keeps the dogs sharper or more driven. I know of one state boy where I live who keeps his Mal in a kennel when at home. The city boys take their Shepherds home and they live in the home with them. Although I am sure there are exceptions where you would not want or be able to trust the dog in the home.


----------



## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I am not sure why its buyers who are responsible for the state of the breed. Hopefully breeders have more knowledge-and they always say breeders should be breeding for themselves. Think part of the role of a breeder is to educate a buyer. I think the buyer needs to be responsible for what they buy. Over the years my knowledge of the breed has changed and what I want from a breeder has changed. It seems that JQ public is a derogatory term-not sure its a big deal if people do not know what schutzhund is. They can go watch. I get that schutzhund is the breed test and all but I do think other venues say something about the dog too


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

cliffson1 said:


> Nigel, these must be exceptions?.


Lol, sorry my brain has been malfunctioning all day, that and trying to post at lunch on my phone I missed your intent, derp.

On another note, the K9 they retired early I would like to know more about. i may be able to contact the former handler, but if that goes nowhere, who else in the sheriff office would know the dogs origin?


----------



## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

holland said:


> I am not sure why its buyers who are responsible for the state of the breed. Hopefully breeders have more knowledge-and they always say breeders should be breeding for themselves. Think part of the role of a breeder is to educate a buyer. I think the buyer needs to be responsible for what they buy. Over the years my knowledge of the breed has changed and what I want from a breeder has changed. It seems that JQ public is a derogatory term-not sure its a big deal if people do not know what schutzhund is. They can go watch. I get that schutzhund is the breed test and all but I do think other venues say something about the dog too


Because markets are driven by demand.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

holland said:


> I am not sure why its buyers who are responsible for the state of the breed. Hopefully breeders have more knowledge-and they always say breeders should be breeding for themselves. Think part of the role of a breeder is to educate a buyer. I think the buyer needs to be responsible for what they buy. Over the years my knowledge of the breed has changed and what I want from a breeder has changed. It seems that JQ public is a derogatory term-not sure its a big deal if people do not know what schutzhund is. They can go watch. I get that schutzhund is the breed test and all but I do think other venues say something about the dog too


Buyers are what drives many to breed. They want a 'low drive dog that is social and inexpensive' or for certain off color, or the color of the month.
If buyers would really dig deep into what it takes to breed a good dog, they'd be investing in that breeders program with pride. And those that breed for said market are not doing right by the breed. 

I don't think part of a breeders role is to educate the buyer, but I know many breeders who do just that...spend time tediously answering questions and patience wears thin when it happens over and over and over. They don't even need to do it, as they generally don't have puppies available to even sell at the time.

My thought with anything, is do research whether it is buying a dog, car, setting up an aquarium, chicken raising, etc... when it comes too easy, it isn't valued enough.
Taking the easy way by asking on a forum "finding a good breeder in ___________ " is not really doing the homework. It is listening to people they have no clue about give suggestions. 
On that local to me FB page, every day someone comes on asking for a puppy. It brings out the BYB's non-stop. It will never end, but if people actually learn about what they are interested in, then maybe they'll be more discerning.


----------



## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

well...I definitely agree that asking on a forum is not research...


----------



## ubercake (Apr 16, 2017)

Like anything else you spend a lot of money on that is important to you, you pull info from many different sources and as a buyer, try to make the best informed decision possible. 

Asking on the forums is part of the larger process of finding "the right" breeder though. If you limit your sources to the forum, your decision may be driven by a few people promoting certain aspects of the breed who are the most active on that forum. 

Also, there are many "news" articles out there telling buyers how to choose "reputable" breeders, though many contradict one another in many ways. 

When trying to be a responsible GSD buyer, where do you turn? You ask people you know with the dogs, you ask on forums, you do google searches to look for breeders in your area, you look at breeder directories on the AKC and other "reputable" sites. Nothing you do gets you ready like actually meeting with the breeder and seeing the dogs in action both in trials, training, or at leisure. It's where the rubber meets the road. The actual visits seem like your best chance at seeing what things are really about or - as others have said in many threads - going to training sessions or trials and seeing the dogs actually doing the things you'll want yours to do and talking to trainers and handlers. Even the site visit can be misleading as you can be shown the breeders "best side."

To leave the responsibility of where the breed is headed on the customer, to me though, is a cop out. I think breeders also have a responsibility to keep other breeders in check as well while promoting the breed and a real standard for the breed. 

We know the AKC just cares about revenue from registrations, events, and other promotional items while providing a service of publishing breed standards and cataloging dogs and events - they are really simply a registry. They aren't concerned with stopping BYBs, puppy mills (whatever is OK with local laws - many of which don't protect the well-being of animals - is OK with the AKC), or how or where puppies and breeding stock are produced and kept; just give them money for the litter you created and you can sell AKC registered puppies. The one service they truly provide the buyer is you can be [nearly] certain that if you buy an AKC registered dog, it is the breed listed on the registration and has the lineage as such.

Because of this, professional GSD breeders (large and small) could get together to promote the establishment of common criteria for GSD breeding/kennel standards and promote this by including those breeders meeting the criteria as members of an organization of breeders (maybe this effort is already underway?). This in itself could help promote responsible buyers. This might help serious buyers in their search for breeders who have the right intentions. The difficulty with this, and what is the topic of this thread, is it seems like there is a real issue in defining what exactly a GSD is. I do like cliffson1's idea "...utilize show and sport world in exhibiting that their breed is capable of both form and function..."

Now that I have lived a quite a few decades and have the means and the understanding to buy from a "reputable" breeder, I would appreciate something like an organization with a breeder registry that meets certain measurable criteria (and not just an AKC registration requirement) that has been agreed upon within the greater GSD breeder community. As a buyer, I would pay more for something like this because I know it would cost breeders more to be part of this. 

On the other hand, I would say a majority of buyers don't do research and don't care. The idea of a dog seems great to them at the time, they want a puppy now and to them the idea of having a GSD is cool. The two people I work with that have GSDs both got them from BYBs. This can go either way with regard to how things end up.

For now, some of us buyers are making best guesses as to how to do "the right thing" while others are simply hopping on "Puppy for Sale" listings and picking up a dog today. This is how it will continue to be until buyers and sellers both become responsible.

It's up to both the breeders and buyers.


----------



## duenorth (Apr 25, 2003)

Excellent post, ubercake! Even with experience in the breed, navigating through the world of who is and isn't a reputable/responsible breeder is very difficult. Forums are a good place to start, but rarely will you find balanced reviews of breeders. The flow of information is too controlled - no one wants to tread into the world of libel. 

References are not always going to give a balanced review. Visiting the kennel should be a priority - I know that I won't make the mistake of buying a puppy sight unseen again. You can attend trials/shows and talk to other owners with dogs from a particular kennel but at the end of the day, puppy buyers have to rely in large part on the integrity and honesty of the breeder. I don't think anyone expects a breeder to product perfect dogs - that's an impossible goal - but being honest about the traits they see showing up in their puppies (both good and bad!) is crucial. 

A legitimate registry with input from breeders and owners would be a step in the right direction. Yes, there will always be buyers who do little to no research and fall for the cute puppy listed in the online ad. But there has to be a way to make it easier for buyers trying to find a reputable breeder. I've been to many training classes with my young male and the trainers comment on the number of GSDs they continue to see with nerve and temperament issues. They've almost come to expect it, and that's a shame for the breed.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

ubercake said

" I would appreciate something like an organization with a breeder registry that meets certain measurable criteria (and not just an AKC registration requirement) that has been agreed upon within the greater GSD breeder community. As a buyer, I would pay more for something like this because I know it would cost breeders more to be part of this. "

but this is what the SV is and look what is happening there .

in Canada the GSDclubof Canada had a voluntary Breeder Code of Ethics.

some of the unethical shenanigans could inspire fictional reading .

in Germany there were so many fraudulent pedigrees that DNA testing for
paternity was brought in 

the AKC will register , using GSD as the example, dogs that simply can not be --
two black and tans producing sable etc.
they just record the information and take their fees 

reputable breeder is not someone who sits bolt upright and follows every rule -- 
some of the data used to make breeding decisions is just that information from which
to make informed intelligent decisions.

you must look at the big picture , past and future , and with passion for the breed and
with full disclosure and discussion with the potential buyer , make that decision to 
breed , and or to buy or not to buy.

one example - the issue of DM 
there are some that will not buy if one of the breeding partners is a carrier 

what percentage of the breed would be eliminated to the detriment of an already narrowed
gene pool.

breeding is not all sailing on open calm waters --


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

ironically , in past threads , there were some breeders which I hold in the highest esteem , made statements which on examination would preclude them from "responsible" breeder membership.

they are knowledgeable , ethical, conscientious and more than responsible !!!

I hate those tick all the right boxes and you are "in" -- 

love this Groucho Marx quote
"I sent the club a wire stating, PLEASE ACCEPT MY RESIGNATION. I DON'T WANT TO BELONG TO ANY CLUB THAT WILL ACCEPT ME AS A MEMBER."

you can tick all those boxes and still not have a good GSD or even a good dog .

You have to know what the information , the data means.


----------



## JimLish (Apr 13, 2017)

As someone looking to get started with the breed, this is a very interesting and educational thread. Being new to the breed, I find it helpful to hear the opinions of those that know enough to be much more "critical" than myself. I don't feel comfortable making any purchase based solely on the "assistance" of a salesperson/breeder who MAY have a different emphasis on which part of the standard is important to them (SL/WL), or just want to make a sale. I want to know what are the various ways to evaluate a GSD and why are they important, so this thread has been very helpful in that regard.


----------



## ubercake (Apr 16, 2017)

carmspack said:


> ...
> 
> but this is what the SV is and look what is happening there .
> 
> ...


SV is at least an attempt to set a measurable standard for breeders. The original intentions are good. It sets minimum criteria for breeding stock. 

Yes, there will be corruption in any organization. That does not mean stop trying to do right by the breed. Breeders looking out for the breed will continue to have good intentions. Even with a certain level of corruption, a standard like SV in the US would still be better than what is currently in place in the US; no criteria for GSD breeders.

If there were a breeding standard like SV in the US, we'd at least get rid of the register-able BYBs and probably most puppy mills. People running puppy mills won't be putting in the time or money to train because it cuts into profits. The time and money required would also eliminate a lot of BYBs because there's less money in unregistered dogs; not even worth it for them.


----------



## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

It'll never happen. This is a "free country" and people won't stand for being told how to breed.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Yes, it is :smile2:


----------



## Raisedbyshepherds (Mar 30, 2017)

I know nothing about breeding...... But seriously how do you retain the traits in a breed that made it so good at what it was created for, when it no longer does that job full time? Dogs in law enforcement, protection etc full time great.....but its not herding.... Not the type of herding they were created for. So the full time working dogs now are not quite the same breed as before? Manfred Heynes was critical of the dogs being bred outside of full time shepherding work along time ago....
Talked about this at length with my dad. He used to breed and sell hunting dogs. After that he had working line shepherds. 
He doesnt even keep dogs at all anymore, but he thinks, and I have trouble arguing with this, that once the dog it no longer being used to work at the original job there is basically no way to keep that breed the same. 
Do yall reckon this is true?


----------



## Raisedbyshepherds (Mar 30, 2017)

If there were people out there nowadays, maybe there are..... I dont know very much.....that still herded full time and bred their own dogs which were the real deal working, herding full time all day every day dogs, do yall think there would be a market for those dogs? Do people need those types of dogs?


----------



## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Raisedbyshepherds said:


> If there were people out there nowadays, maybe there are..... I dont know very much.....that still herded full time and bred their own dogs which were the real deal working, herding full time all day every day dogs, do yall think there would be a market for those dogs? Do people need those types of dogs?


People still herd very much in my area, but honestly they get puppies for about $75 or their own dogs have puppies. There are of course more expensive dogs but there are honestly already plenty of dog breeds that fill this need.


----------



## Raisedbyshepherds (Mar 30, 2017)

Kazel: that is interesting.....so i guess why would anybody spend thousands on a gsd from proven lines when you can get a dog for under 100$ that can perform the job.?


----------



## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Raisedbyshepherds said:


> Kazel: that is interesting.....so i guess why would anybody spend thousands on a gsd from proven lines when you can get a dog for under 100$ that can perform the job.?


There are some people who will pay big money for a good herding dog. But I that's the minority and honestly most people would probably laugh at the idea of a GSD.


----------



## Raisedbyshepherds (Mar 30, 2017)

That is sad.....oh well...people also laugh at the idea of bullmastiffs getting off their butts and chasing down and tackling an armed man in the woods.....on command...or doing protection work...but thats what they were created to do. The ones being bred now are mostly too large and cumbersome for that....per the friggin current breed standard...and show preferences for larger size. 
Ok so who wants to start over and recreate the gsd from scratch?
Just kidding! Dont burn me at the stake!


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

The Sch degree was put in place by creator of breed to prove breed worthiness in late 20s, early thirties. What kind of job do you think this test was evaluating the breed for?


----------



## Raisedbyshepherds (Mar 30, 2017)

Cliffson1: please bear with me, trying to get some education from yall more experienced. 
So the sch was put in place with the intention of testing the same traits needed to be successful in herding, in leu of actually working a lorge flock of sheep correct? Please correct me if wrong. 
But tests can skewed and the bar lowered so to speak. 
Tests are only as good as those administering them and evaluating the results. So how to keep it honest? It still seems like it would be tough to see what you need without the dog working full-time.
Even the Heynes fellow told a story of a champion sv dog turning tail and running from his flock of sheep.....
I dont know squat about schutzund training.....
Not trying to be difficult here just really trying to understand all of it.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Raisedbyshepherds said:


> I know nothing about breeding...... But seriously how do you retain the traits in a breed that made it so good at what it was created for, when it no longer does that job full time? Dogs in law enforcement, protection etc full time great.....but its not herding.... Not the type of herding they were created for. So the full time working dogs now are not quite the same breed as before? Manfred Heynes was critical of the dogs being bred outside of full time shepherding work along time ago....
> Talked about this at length with my dad. He used to breed and sell hunting dogs. After that he had working line shepherds.
> He doesnt even keep dogs at all anymore, but he thinks, and I have trouble arguing with this, that once the dog it no longer being used to work at the original job there is basically no way to keep that breed the same.
> Do yall reckon this is true?


If you were to read the von Stephanitz documentation of the creation of this breed you would see that the origins were sourced from basically 4 main groups of working and shepherds' dogs in the area .

All 4 had slightly different structure , which best suited them in their work , and slightly different
strengths to meet the needs of their required work.

This included the erect eared , speedy, little more reactive , intense Thuringian type dog .

the heavier set , low stationed , often coated , sometimes down eared , serious character
less prey , more fight drive , higher thresholds Wurtemberger -- von der Krone (herding)
and then there were the two Schwabian guard types.

The amalgammation of all these types into on unified - "national representative" meant that the GSD is not a specialist dog - but a versatile , utilitarian helpful dog . (swiss army knife)

keeping all things in balance is a trick - but should be done with each breeding .

the herding attributes are desirable for independent action , thinking intelligence , biddability,
responsibility and character to be a controlling and controllable helper dog.


----------



## Raisedbyshepherds (Mar 30, 2017)

Ahhh...so the creation and developement of the gsd was never meant to be about keeping the gsd as it was originally constructed as used for herding? 
Arrg. I always thought the gsd was an purpose utility dog, but was originally developed as a herder. Is this wrong?
All the talk of the different lines being better at different specific things has got me way confused now. 
Does anybody breed for the all purpose dog anymore? Or is it different lines for different things nowadays?
This is like trying to find my way through a maze lol


----------



## Raisedbyshepherds (Mar 30, 2017)

I have to ask yall these things. In my area 99% of the gsds out there are crap. Byb crap. So have to find these things out from the actual knowledgeable people here. I said in a previous post that I've been out of the gsd world for a good 15 years, and alot changes in even that short time.....
It doesnt seem like people are breeding for the all purpose dog... These lines for LE these lines for sport these lines for show etc etc.......


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Raisedbyshepherds said:


> Cliffson1: please bear with me, trying to get some education from yall more experienced.
> So the sch was put in place with the intention of testing the same traits needed to be successful in herding, in leu of actually working a lorge flock of sheep correct? Please correct me if wrong.
> But tests can skewed and the bar lowered so to speak.
> Tests are only as good as those administering them and evaluating the results. So how to keep it honest? It still seems like it would be tough to see what you need without the dog working full-time.
> ...


Here's a brief overview of Schutzhund:
https://www.germanshepherddog.com/about/german-shepherd-dogs/

I think this is the best description of the protection phase and what's being judged you'll find anywhere:
https://www.germanshepherddog.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/IPO-PROTECTION-Website-Updated.pdf

If you have the chance, and you can go see trials, the more dogs you can see will give you a pretty good baseline to go by and help clarify what people say. A lot of things come down to opinions and preferences from personal experience, but within a general standard. Most of the people knocking IPO, I generally think it comes down to they're looking at it wrong, that its somehow supposed to be some real life scenario or something.


----------



## Raisedbyshepherds (Mar 30, 2017)

Thank you Mr Strom!


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Yeah, no problem. One other thing to think about when you look at dogs doing something, sport, work, any of them, is the bottom line. Will the dog do it. Will the dog see it through, beginning to end. Then you can kinda fill in the in between's, the how or whys. The dogs are the reality, its the people's interpretations that causes the problems.


----------



## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I have a little different take on the original question. I do think people should show and compete with their dogs in conformation and sport. But I also think, especially conformation, and to some degree, SchH have led to a gene pool that has negatively impacted the breed. I believe this has been happening since the origin of the breed. Von Stephanitz harped on keeping his breed a working breed, yet he highly valued Roland von Starkenburg as a mutant with great type and used him for his type despite being a weak nerved dog. This happened repeatedly over the years and then you get the split and the high lines are not working dogs.
I understand that the GSD is supposed to be a versatile breed jack of all trades and master of none, but I also think that is less and less true over time. As for schH, it has evolved to assess too many of the wrong traits that make for a good working dog, resulting in selection for the wrong traits. Even though the breeds are different, I compare to the unregistered KNPV Mals and DS's. They don't care how a dog looks as long as it has the nerves and drives to work. They don't care if the breed is "purebred" and recognize the value of outcrossing to other breeds from time to time to bring in hybrid vigor and to enhance certain traits and structure. Years of in/linebreeding have added to healths problems in the breed. There are still great working GSDs out their, but they are not easy to find.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Raisedbyshepherds said:


> Ahhh...so the creation and developement of the gsd was never meant to be about keeping the gsd as it was originally constructed as used for herding?
> Arrg. I always thought the gsd was an purpose utility dog, but was originally developed as a herder. Is this wrong?
> All the talk of the different lines being better at different specific things has got me way confused now.
> Does anybody breed for the all purpose dog anymore? Or is it different lines for different things nowadays?
> This is like trying to find my way through a maze lol


lol - confusing ? this might be more confusing for you.

The GSD is a modern creation that wasn't assembled FOR herding exclusively -- but was assembled FROM groups of herding dogs already in existence for hundreds of years . 
So sort of the other way around from how you understood it.

Yes there are people breeding for the BALANCED versatile , utilitarian dog . Not as many as there were at one time - you would have to know a pedigree to see if it drifts to a speciailization .

I can name a few on the forum.

I know that this will ruffle feathers but all-purpose dogs would be found in work/sport group.


How the groups fit together did make for a unique multi-talented versatile dog .


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

First, Sch in its creation was meant to evaluate the dog, IPO as a sport measures training.
A lot of the people I talk to about the quality of dogs/lines never even talk about the titles the dog possesses, but more about the genetics. Many years ago titles spoke volumes about the dog....today every dog at the Seiger show has a title that largely reflects skilled training as well as the same people on the podiums that again reflect training skill.
Show reflects handling and trials reflect training as being more important than the dog. There are exceptions, but people who make a point with exceptions.....wellll.....
A lot of fairly new people to show/sport are very enamored with trial/show results, they usually aren't breeders but handlers/trainers.
Now in the US where titles are considered a status point because of the scarcity of titles in this country, AND the uneducated public assumes titles mean quality in genetics, you often see experienced people who will breed to lesser dogs in quality because the better dog has a lesser title. ( like a superior IPO 1 male to an inferior IPO3 male)
Now all of these thoughts are in reference to breeding for show or sport.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

In all fairness to some of folks on this forum and in dog world, there definitely are people who can go to IPO trial and assess quality of dog by there performance......but I think the vast majority of people who attend a trial comes away with the best dog being the one with the fastest, launchingness long bite in the trial.


----------



## Vandal1979 (May 27, 2017)

Anymore, I do think there is a problem with showing and sport. Neither venue is promoting what a GSD was intended to be...period. In years past, I could mostly complain about the show side but unfortunately, now the working side has become it's own grotesque "show". 
I read breeders acknowledging the problems and then a day later they are there bragging about their titles etc and using them to advertise pups. The hypocrisy is a bit frustrating. We've all seen the fads in training come and go but the working people are getting addicted to the idea of speed and "flash", much the same as the show people endlessly spoke about "side gait". We all know where that led and none of it improved the movement in the breed. Quite the contrary actually.
Now we have more people saying " well in my club we don't do that" or "in my club we work the dogs right". Yeah ok...now tell me how that is different from anyone saying that about their dogs. It leaves me wondering what the **** is the difference? We continue to make more judges who say one thing and put up a completely incorrect GSD at shows and trials. I look at pedigrees now and wonder what the heck people are thinking. Sharp bred to sharp, bred to less than spectacular nerves. All a recipe for disaster but before it all comes crashing down, there will be "flash".


----------

