# Do B&T dogs have tarheels?



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/442070.html

The dog has the tarheels of a bicolor, but no toe penciling and a whole lot of tan. I'm inclined to say he is a black and tan but I've read that tar heels are a good indicator of a bicolor. Thoughts?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

*Re: Do B&T dogs have tarheels?*

I suppose it's possible for there to be a B&T dog with tarheels, but I've never encountered one. Even on really, really dark B&Ts that have extensive enough black to be mistaken for Bi-color.

I've never seen a Bi-color without tarheels, though I've seen a couple without toe penciling, that's pretty rare.

The dog pictured has such odd markings it's hard to say what he is genetically. I suppose he could be a Bi-color, but he does have too much tan to generally fit that mold. But it's obvious he has some pretty significant extension genes causing lack of black in the mask, so possibly elsewhere too... 

Actually looks to me like he could be sable. Especially with the shawl on his shoulders. Though probably not since neither of parents look like saddle patterned sables.. though the could be. Old b&w photos can make it hard to tell.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/528310.html
Another with the tarheel. 

It is a little boggling, Chris. Rocky might indeed be a sable as his mom looks like a possible sable, but either way those are some odd markings. I looked at the siblings, and a full sibling from a different litter ended up a bicolor: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/444029.html 

Same litter: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/403136.html Looks like a tarheel on the foreground hock. 

It sure doesn't help that they are black and white, but these are still confusing! In any case, it helps to know that tarheeling is a bicolor trait along with toe penciling.


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## Powell (Oct 13, 2006)

I was going to say....only in a North Carolina dog...


Powell (ducking)


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## Sue F (Oct 3, 2007)

I was waiting for it Powell, I knew it would come up eventually..LOL


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

> Quote:http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/528310.html
> Another with the tarheel.


I think it is just the photo that is making this dog appear to have tar heals. He is a blanket b/t. 

The sire, Ch. Nordraak of Matterhorn, of the first dog you posted seems to have produced a few of these dogs that sort of look bi-colored. 
1/2 sister: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/403819.html
His Sire also appears to be a BI that doesn't have as much black. http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/402146.html
Noordraak himself had terrible color and one would never know that he could produce these more melanistic dogs. He also produced several with terrible color. The original dog may very well be a BI with some sort of color fading gene affecting how much black/tan he shows.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

I don't know much about coloring in dogs, but when I saw the picture it reminded me very much of what they called a faded Bi-color on this site...

http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/07_Colour_&_Pigment/Colour_&_Pigment.html


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## Achielles UD (May 26, 2001)

Wow. The first dog in question really looks like the faded bi-color on the color page JKlatsky posted.
Thanks for that color page! Very interesting and informative!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Thank you for that link. I had forgotten about that page. Yes, he does look like a faded BI.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Very interesting. I didn't know bicolor could be faded so much (I've seen Shawlein's example before, but never a real life example).


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I'd forgotten about Linda Shaw's color page too and had never seen a faded bi-color in real life. But indeed it would appear that is what he is.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Barry is typical of Long Worth breeding of the 40's and 50's. The black and white pictures are deceiving as the faded white is light tan. Vol of Long Worth was heavily linebred/inbred on and helped to improve pigment during a period in the US where almost all dogs were Black and Tan. Actually many of the Long Worth dogs were saddles and I think I remeber they had a 5 Champion litter in which all were saddles. These dogs (Barry) were black and tan with a larger amount of black. The same with the Caralon dogs, who had Hein as a foundation dog. These dogs were in their infancy genetically of having sable/black blood incorporated in them as opposed to today's bi colors that are usually dogs with sables/blacks that are strongly ingrained over many generations. I hope this makes sense.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

*Re: Do B&T dogs have tarheels?*

Would this also work for mixes-the faded bi-color?

Bruno is a Schipperke-Shepherd mix (I think). 

Excuse all the other butts, his would be the one with the tarheels.

















And here he is from the side to see his overall coloring-after a bath:


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## nathalie1977 (Sep 4, 2006)

What would Freyja be considered... B&T or bicolor? She has tarheels. Sire is a bicolor, dam is a sable.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I think I figured out one thing -- maybe not.

My female had tarheels, pencilling, and the marks down the front of the legs when she was a puppy and these marks graduallly faded to the point of still being visible (the penciling is gone) but intermixed with a lot of tan.

She is a blanket black, not a bicolor, but since her birth her sable mother has produced some black offspring with other sires --so my female has to carry the black gene. I have heard that sables who carry the black gene often have these marks; could it be true of B&T?


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## EastGSD (Jul 8, 2001)

Nat are you sure your girl is not just a very dark sable in the blanket pattern?

Cherri


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## nathalie1977 (Sep 4, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: EastGSDNat are you sure your girl is not just a very dark sable in the blanket pattern?
> 
> Cherri


Crossed my mind but I didn't think that was possible, except for the gray on the back of her neck, which always tipped me off to sable.

Her undercoat is gray.

This is Freyja's dam, Whoopie von der Fasanerie (from Anne's website):


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Nat
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: EastGSDNat are you sure your girl is not just a very dark sable in the blanket pattern?
> ...


Looking at her neck and flanks, I'm sort of wondering the same thing.

Easy way to answer the question... what color was she as a pup? If brownish gray as a pup, she's sable. If mostly black, she's bi-color.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Her coloring is almost exactly the same as Alexis' who is a BI. Alexis is darker, but also has the gray on the back of her neck. And Anne would have known if Nat's female was a sable.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: Do B&T dogs have tarheels?*

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/397995.html has Freya's dad info and photo:










and here's mom Whoopie again:  click here 










Do you have photos of Freya and her litter when they were born? That will tell if she's sable or not.

From your site http://www.dogster.com/dogs/421472 the youngest photos posted have her pretty BLACK even when she's young....


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## nathalie1977 (Sep 4, 2006)

Litter photos - she was pretty much black.









I'd say she's a bicolor with some sable sprinkled in LOL


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

and then








<span style='font-size: 11pt'><span style='font-size: 11pt'>This dog is out of two black and tan parents and was mostly black as a pup. But he has tarheels on the back legs (that you can just see on the standing picture) and lots of "sable-ing" around the neck. His tan is very pale, almost white. </span>I registered him as a blk/tan but when I saw Linda Shaw's faded bicolor a few years ago I thought it was a perfect description. 
To me he resembles the coloring of the original posted dog... What do you all think?
Mary</span>


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

OH NO!!! You mean I checked the wrong color box on the AKC papers??!!!









Let me clear this up for all of you. She is NOT a sable. LOL. You are kidding right?

Kizar does not have any gray and Whoopie is sable but Kadja, ( Kizar's litter sister), has gray in the same place as Freyja but you do have to brush her fur back to see it. 

Over the years, I have had a couple of bi colors who had a grayish undercoat. They were females that went back to Enno Beilstein....both female lines in Freja's pedigree go back to Enno daughters. Probably happens in other lines as well but, as I said, I have seen it more than once in this particular bloodline....and they weren't sable! hehehe


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## nathalie1977 (Sep 4, 2006)

So then bicolors CAN have gray on the back of the neck? WOuldn't that make them... tricolors?


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Yes Nat, those are the RARE tri-colors. So rare that AKC doesn't even have a box to check for that color. Did you read the fine print on the contract? If your pup becomes a tri-color the price goes up. I will send you a bill.


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## EastGSD (Jul 8, 2001)

Anne, while I have respect for you and think your dogs are something to be proud of can we leave the sarcsasm out of it? I think it was a valid question...... I find the coloring of dogs behind this bitch very interesting. Have you bred any progeny from these parents to a non sable dog/bitch?

Cherri


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Nope, can't leave out the humor or the sarcasm, sorry, that is just who I am. Love me or leave me ....or ...you could lighten up a bit. 

I didn't realize this was such a serious topic. Guess I should have stayed out of this but since I stumbled upon this thread and found my dogs plastered all over it, I thought I would respond and clear things up for everyone, ( except Lisa who has a dog with similar color and knew Freyja wasn't a sable). It would never occur to me that Freyja was a sable. Maybe you guys have seen more dogs than I have but there is no way *I* would look at her, even with the gray on the neck , and think she was a sable. 
As for your question, no, I have not bred any of the pups from this combination...and that's all I have to say about that.....except.........where's my money Nat?


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## nathalie1977 (Sep 4, 2006)

*Re: Do B&T dogs have tarheels?*



> Originally Posted By: VandalYes Nat, those are the RARE tri-colors. So rare that AKC doesn't even have a box to check for that color. Did you read the fine print on the contract? If your pup becomes a tri-color the price goes up. I will send you a bill.


No, it's not on the contract. But if you want to start breeding my tricolor bitch and advertise her as a 'rare tricolor GSD' I will go easy on the fee







Think of all the money we could make.









Sorry Cherri, but you just got stonewalled by two very sarcastic women. One reason why I love Anne, even if she occasionally yells at me during training because I suck


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

That sort of coloring also occurs in some American show lines. It was known as a "Paladen" coat for years because it often showed up in Paladen bi-color progeny.











This is Ch. Vonshore's Arrow.


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## EastGSD (Jul 8, 2001)

Well I am glad other people have had the opportunity to see the dog in person, I havent; I only had the photos posted here to look at, which is why I asked the question.

It's a shame it is implied that someone is "daft" for asking a simple to answer question...


::







:: oh well









I notice a number of the dogs featured in this thread also have "bright points" which would be on the intensity series...I wonder how that plays in? I happen to love color genetics and am always interested in the topic. I also am one of those people that agrees with Carver when it comes to the bi-color coloration and not Willis...which was why I wondered if the bitch in question was possibly a very dark, melanistic sable. Basically I had a sable male that had the identical markings of these dogs however the area of black was sable he also had the lighter hair area behind the neck ....it's as if it is a pattern and a self color is expressed there be it black, bi-color or sable. To me the tar heels and penciling as seen above are an inherited pattern, not a "color."

This was Harry at 4-5 mths of age. 










Notice the light area on the back of his neck, and the dark, black sable area. The difference in him and the dogs above is he also had the light "stripe" that started just behind the elbow you see in many black and tan marked dogs. Harry was a heterozygous sable carrying black.

Here is another photo taken the same day that you can clearly see his pigment in and markings. There were times as he grew that his back looked solid black and not sable at all....that was why I asked about the bitch above










It is as if Harry is just like the above dogs except that the areas on them that are black, his were sable.... so, it makes me wonder...is bi-color a "color" or a black and tan being influenced by another allele

Just curious about the topic like I said....

Cherri


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

*Re: Do B&T dogs have tarheels?*

I don't think anyone was doubting that Anne is perfectly capable of determining what color a pup is. But pictures can be decieving and since pictures are all that there was to go by in the thread (I didn't even notice the name or who the breeder of the dog), I don't think it crazy to question.

Yes, the dog looks like a bi-color. Though I know the 2 Bis I've owned never had that gray around the neck and flank area. And while I may have seen Bis with similar shading (well, obviously I have since I've met Lisa's Alexis) I don't remember noticing it before.

And it wouldn't be the first sable I'd seen that did NOT look sable, and was so darkly and distinctly patterned that judging by photos alone one would be hard pressed to know that the dog was a sable.

For example I'll offer photos of this dog. Judging by the photos alone, does this dog look like a Sable or Black/Tan?


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Well, it looks like a black and tan, but since you brought him up, my bet is that he is a sable!


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

*Re: Do B&T dogs have tarheels?*

I would also say a black/tan dog.. but the first picture, at first glance, looks to be a sable.. 

Inquiring minds want to know?!!


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

He's sable... though when imported he was misregistered by AKC as "black & red", based on photos. And most anyone who's seen him, even in person, without looking up close (or already knowing the answer), has thought he was black & tan as well.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

*Re: Do B&T dogs have tarheels?*

What about my poor little mix Bruno?


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## nathalie1977 (Sep 4, 2006)

See, to me he looks like a sable. A black/red sable.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Chris- Call me crazy but the first picture reminds me of your Kaiser.. That's why I thought a sable dog..


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

*Re: Do B&T dogs have tarheels?*



> Originally Posted By: G-burgChris- Call me crazy but the first picture reminds me of your Kaiser.. That's why I thought a sable dog..


Ok, you're crazy.







To me he looks nothing like Kaiser.









Kaiser-


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I remember seeing him when he was first imported. Unless you saw him upclose he very much looked like a black/brown dog. The DDR did produce the darkest sables I have ever seen.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

OK Chris. WHERE did you get the giant ball?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

*Re: Do B&T dogs have tarheels?*



> Originally Posted By: lhczthOK Chris. WHERE did you get the giant ball?


I honestly can't remember.









Tim picked it up somewhere for Kais' birthday last year but I'm not sure where. I'll have to ask him.

It's an "Indestructible Ball" brand one, but definitely the largest I've ever seen.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

*Re: Do B&T dogs have tarheels?*

Jean, Bruno the stunning, Bruno the handsome, Bruno the adorable-- I myself would say he is a bi-color. Sweetface Bruno-baby!


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## EastGSD (Jul 8, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Chris WildI don't think anyone was doubting that Anne is perfectly capable of determining what color a pup is. But pictures can be decieving and since pictures are all that there was to go by in the thread (I didn't even notice the name or who the breeder of the dog), I don't think it crazy to question.
> 
> Yes, the dog looks like a bi-color. Though I know the 2 Bis I've owned never had that gray around the neck and flank area. And while I may have seen Bis with similar shading (well, obviously I have since I've met Lisa's Alexis) I don't remember noticing it before.
> 
> ...


Thank you Chris, this is exactly what I was referring to. I was wondering if the bitch in question was also like this sable...just so dark it looked black.....

Another interesting observation is the lighter area around his eyes....in some GSDs the mask will extend to the eye and in many sables, bi-colors etc there will be the distinct circle area....it almost looks like an overlay to me if that makes any sense. Like you could take the sable color off of the above dog, replace it with black and walla, a bi-color. This is what leads me to more strongly believe it is a pattern rather than a color.

Cherri


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