# Overstimulated Aggression



## Defenders of Hyrule (Sep 28, 2013)

Hello, I'm new to the forum and am the proud owner of (dad to) two 9 month old german shepherds, one male (Link), and one female (Zelda). We've had both pups from 8 1/2 weeks and have followed all of the guidelines for raising litter mates (separate kennels, socialization, walks, etc. until about 20 weeks). The reason I am writing is our male seems to have developed aggressive tendencies when he's over-stimulated. There have been a couple near misses with other dogs (fortunately NEVER with people), we've wracked our brains to try to try to identify any pattern and the only common thread is him making his "excited whine" immediately prior to each incident, its the same whine he makes when he's going to get fed, knows they're going to the dog park, going for a walk, etc. He doesn't normally exhibit signs of dog aggression in normal encounters, the incidents have all happened well after any initial introduction and after a playing for a while. Does anyone have any advice on what we should do other than be hyper-vigilant to his behavior? Is this normal for a male of his age, is it something he'll outgrow? Also yes, he is neutered. Any advice would be appreciated.


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## Defenders of Hyrule (Sep 28, 2013)

P.S. Our female exhibits no aggression whatsoever. She commonly proves she can out-submit any dog and refuses to respond to other dogs' aggression preferring to try to "make friends".


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Never mind my first post, misunderstood initially.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

If your going to have him around other dogs, your going to need to watch him closely and learn what sets him off or maybe just shorten the length of time he can interact.


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## AngVi (Dec 22, 2012)

I totally understand what you are saying! I also have two, and my boy thinks he is a lap dog. Big teddy bear- But lately he gets so excited and starts barking. He is 11 months old and about 90 pds so he intimidates people. My girl is 16 months and nothing bothers her.
He is just so sweet so I don't understand this behavior. 
Unfortunately I don't have an answer for you, but I'm glad I am. It alone.
Not sure what to do- I've been to classes etc.



Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

What is he actually doing?


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## Defenders of Hyrule (Sep 28, 2013)

Baillif said:


> What is he actually doing?


He'll start-off playing like normal then after a little while his body language will stiffen, he'll start the whine I mentioned, then the play will turn into him trying to attack the other dog (I know the difference between aggressive play and attacking, this is the latter). He does give warning with his body language and the whining, but we're caught between intervening at the first warning and letting him de-sensitize to the situation. The behavior does seem to be improving slightly (it's hard to tell because it is rare) in that his stimulation threshold seems to be increasing. My concern now is because of his size and strength, the cost of failure is increasing with pushing his boundaries.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Have you been able to identify a trigger yet?


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## Defenders of Hyrule (Sep 28, 2013)

Baillif said:


> Have you been able to identify a trigger yet?


Just the play itself. It's always been in a very stimulating environment, and it's always after the change in body language and the whine. There have "only" been 3 incidents; the first time was at about 6 months old after a training class with a puppy in a following class I thought he was whining wanting to meet the puppy... He ended-up snapping at it aggressively (this was the first incident of aggression we'd ever seen from him). The second two were at the dog park, the first with a female golden retriever he's always played well with, and another last night with a smaller mix (in the past he's shown an unusual interest in smaller breeds, not aggression, he typically introduces himself by getting to their height). Both times started with at least 10 minutes of typical playing followed by the stiffening, whining then serious snapping/snarling... I haven't seen anything the other dogs have done to trigger the reaction. No toys or food are involved.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

The times I see that happen usually involve one of the dogs getting sick of playing and wants to stop but the other doesn't so a snap warning happens and things go from play to a more serious "get the **** way from me" and if the other dog doesn't get the message it turns into a fight. I don't know if this is what is happening but that is the most common problem I see.

Lots of people here myself included shy away from dog parks because nothing good happens from them in the long run. Set play dates if you want, but you might want to ask yourself why you want to see your dogs playing with other dogs and not you.


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## Defenders of Hyrule (Sep 28, 2013)

In all honesty, the dog park started-out as a means of socialization and (ironically) to prevent dog aggression. After a little while it became apparent that both genuinely enjoy going. Personally, I'd prefer taking them on hikes (fortunately there are a number of trail heads nearby) but it's been a once or twice a week concession for them since they seem to like it so much. It looks like we might have to curtail the dog park visits; good for me, sad for them...
Also, the dog park trips aren't their only activity for the week. They typically get at least an hour and a half walk or a hike in the foothills every night. I'm looking forward to winter for snowshoeing and XC skiing with them.


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## NTexFoster (Jul 18, 2013)

I think it's a common opinion on this forum that dog parks are not a place to take dogs. The irony just kinda eats at you, no?

I've not had Kaiser get aggressive with anybody but does turn in to a tsunami when he gets over stimulated and getting his attention back on me is a wasted effort. I think the work I'm doing with Kaiser might be effective for you guy too.

In short: go read "Control Unleashed" by Leslie McDevitt. She spends a lot of time talking about managing your dogs to keep him under his threshold. So in your case I think you need to watch and see the signs just before he starts the whining and bring him back to you at that point and introduce a new game.

You might also consider not giving him 'free play' with other dogs. I don't know what your goals are for him. In my case Kaiser is my dog and I want his focus on me. Everything he does involves me. Once I have him to the point where we could walk unleashed through a dog park filled with new puppies, exciting stuff, clowns and ribeyes laying everywhere and he never takes a step away from me - then I'll loosen up a bit for doggy play time. But until he returns to me immediately when recalled - no go. He stays on a leash, especially if strange dogs are around.


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

Besides consulting with a trainer to help you identify the triggers, I think your male is hitting that teenage stage of being a complete pill. Levi did this at around 10 months or so. Was great at dog parks until one day he wasn't (and we went to them because it was the only place to let them off leash and they were large areas). 

But, I would really consult with someone who knows what they are doing to help you figure out what is causing said behavior and how to recondition his response.


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## Defenders of Hyrule (Sep 28, 2013)

ntexfoster,
Thanks for the advice, I'll definitely look for that book it sounds like exactly the cure for my problem. 

Mspiker03,
Do you think this could be another age-related phase? I've heard this from other local GSD owners (including one who works with dogs in a well-regarded boarding facility who has a 3-year old male) she said hers was the same way until about 2 when it just switched-off. While I find it encouraging, I prefer to try to be more proactive.


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## Defenders of Hyrule (Sep 28, 2013)

I forgot to mention that, if at all possible, I'd like to try to fix this trait without completely removing the dog park from the equation... I know the potential downsides, but both of them really seem to love going and I'd hate to take that away from them. Whenever we ask them "wanna go see friends?" They spring to their feet and can't wait to get in the car. They actually react more positively to that question than to "who's hungry"... Every time we go they get "kid going to Disneyland" excited when we're 4 blocks away (they've learned the landmarks along the way). 
As I said, I might be being a softie but I really don't want to have to take away something they obviously love so much.


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## NTexFoster (Jul 18, 2013)

If you like dog parks then go, just make them part of your training routine and manage things accordingly.

The biggest thing for me right now is that I have to stay focused on Kaiser and pay attention to what he is doing. Watching things like his ears and tail, where is he looking, does he look calm and relaxed or is he getting keyed up? Right now I want him to start getting keyed up so I can work on returning him to a relaxed state.

So basically: keep going to the dog park, but work on yourself by paying closer attention to your boy and try to notice the little details about how he acts so you can start anticipating what he is going to do and when he is most likely to respond to you without you having to physicaly help him.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

It is age related i guess. Your dog wants to dominate other dogs by force. If they submit to him and lie down then he might be happy. He is testing the waters to see what his strength and aggression will get him. 

For me that is dog business. You must tell your dog he is not allowed act like that. He is of the age now where if you don't fix it he will do damage to another dog or meet a more powerful dog and get injured himself.

I was there with my dog and had to let the dog know that fighting is not allowed and he would be punished for not responding to me when in the zone. It worked pretty well and we avoided fights and now he is older and wiser he knows how to socialize and avoid conflict with me and other dogs.

One thing that strikes me about your initial post is the dog whining with this anxious excitement. This tells me the dog is not totally sure of his position and is not in a calm state in your home and on walks with you. The walks actually trigger this whining and anxiousness and this feeds into the prey instincts with other dogs. 

You want to aim for a calm submissive dog inside the house and even the walk should send a strong message to the dog that you are in control, not the dog. 

You should use ball play and tug to develop confidence in your dog and also instill control over him. You give him the fight he wants but under your terms. You gotta be careful as you do make the dog more powerful but you should be instilling discipline as well.

Food should not excite this anxious whining either. Food should be used to calm a dog down and it should wait relaxed to be fed. When using food as a reward for training you want it to excite the animal but not when feeding imo.

Research the hand feeding methods here on this site, or do what i do, and feed the dog when totally calm. Usually after walks when it has calmed down. I hold the bowl of food over the dog and wait until the dog takes his eyes of the food and looks directly into my eyes. I say good boy and place the food and observe that he eats his own food and doesn't challenge another dog who is eating as well. 

I will also, with hold food just to de motivate the dog in the house sometimes. What are they gonna do when they don't get fed? Lie down and sleep. Then I will feed there one meal in the evening. Usually i feed twice a day but sometimes will leave it at 1 to remind the dogs i fed when i like not when they like it. 

Before a walk i will pick up the lead, put it down again. Get the dog ready for a walk and then put away the leads again and relax myself. I will teach the dog it getting anxious or excited means no walk. The dog will come to my way of thinking as it really doesn't have any other choice. 

But i show the dog that i will train him and satisfy his drives. The play with me far out paces what fun it can have getting aggro with other male dogs. He will come to realize that if it plays by my rules he will get loads of exercise, chasing, biting, swimming and at the end of the day some good food and a decent bed. 

The dog will appreciate some discipline and some rules and guidelines in his life.


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

Defenders of Hyrule said:


> ntexfoster,
> Thanks for the advice, I'll definitely look for that book it sounds like exactly the cure for my problem.
> 
> Mspiker03,
> Do you think this could be another age-related phase? I've heard this from other local GSD owners (including one who works with dogs in a well-regarded boarding facility who has a 3-year old male) she said hers was the same way until about 2 when it just switched-off. While I find it encouraging, I prefer to try to be more proactive.


Possibly. Levi was never really a dog park dog after that. We would go, but he would never play with other dogs, except a few that we knew owners and hung out with on a regular basis. But, he wasn't super playful with his littermate, Leyna, either. We would usually go off in our little corner and let him play fetch and run around with Leyna. He would ignore all the other dogs unless they were up in his face. Again, I would strongly encourage a trainer to help you sort through these problems. We spent a good part of a year working with a trainer on Levi's issues (if not longer - I forgot how long it took us as it has been awhile). The sooner you get a handle on it, the better and you can do that a lot faster with an experienced trainer. You may also have to face the fact that your dog may never be a great dog park dog anymore. 

You might also think about taking them to the dog park separately. I know Levi got more protective and reactive with Leyna around.


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