# As a breeder, what do you think?



## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

I found out last week that Havoc has degenerative lumbosacral stenosis. He has a herniated disc that is causing nerve compression. I spoke at length with the neurologist about the cause of this and he said that this is something that happened _because_ of early degeneration in the spine and bad hips are also a small contributing factor. As a breeder would this concern you? I emailed his breeder and she came back basically saying that it is my fault because _clearly_ I can't manage a high drive dog. I really don't want to turn this into a breeder rant, I don't want, or expect anything from her. I just get really sick of reading thread after thread picking apart small details of GSD's temperament but no one in the breed seems to want to pay attention to the fact that the health of the German Shepherd is in shambles. Should I be choked about this?? or just forget about it, move on, and get into another breed like most previous GSD people I know.



BTW Havoc turns 2 this weekend and will likely never get to be a normal dog again.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Sorry but at 2 years old, seeing a serious degenerative disease if the spine is NOT management. IMHO. 




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## ugavet2012 (Apr 15, 2010)

She should be thanking you for letting her know. This is _insanity_. I have 3 young (under 3) high drive dogs, 1 GSD, 2 mal, and I refuse to wrap them in bubble wrap before we go outside. I have 1 acre fenced, and everyday They run like wild beasts, slam into each other and things like trees, jump over things and jump straight up in the air after balls, go sliding chasing rolling balls, etc. and though I try to keep the really hairy situations to a minimum or nonexistent, it just happens with these types of dogs. All of my dogs have xrayed with good hips, no spine problems, etc. you DID NOT cause this. Your dog has 2 nasty orthopedic problems and horrible allergies to boot (and I think you mentioned that strangers cant handle him at all either? also a fault in my opinion)the breeder should never ever combine those 2 dogs ever again, and should look closely at the litter mates and any other dogs the parents have produced to know if either parent should be bred ever again period. 

I got my GSD from a reputable breeder, often recommended on here, that others have nice dogs from. However, she too has some allergy problems and a very strange screwed up temperament. I have really worked hard with her to make her so she is able to safely go out in public and not be a liability in general. She also has a very mild genetic heart condition. The breeder knows these things and kept in touch with all my dogs litter mates for comparison and went to her own vet about everything too. She has offered me another puppy for free whenever I am ready. She was very appreciative that I discussed everything with her. I would still recommend her to people, I think I just got the short end of the stick this time, and its no one's fault. 

I know you love your dog, but you will have to seriously consider his quality of life with how it relates to him specifically, not to dogs in general, since he's not a typical family pet type dog. I'm sorry :hug::hug::hug:


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

not a breeder just wanted to say how sorry i am that you and yr beloved companion have to go thru this. so sad.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

Thank you, before talking to the neurologist I felt sick to my stomach thinking this was my fault. He assured me it was not and that this would have happened no matter what I did with him. For her to come back saying it is my fault, just really struck a nerve. He does have many other issues which I have let her know about and she never asks questions about it, just brushes them off as my fault. (He is far from my first dog!) 

I just feel like so many important health issues in this breed get swept under the carpet. No one wants to talk about it. 

I have heard that mink can produce bad backs, havoc is 5-5 on mink.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I have had the same issue with my breeder as well.

It's sad that some people will not help seek out the answers and find solutions instead of just placing blame. 

Situations like this don't help our breed at all. Very sad indeed.

I am sorry your going through this and I am sorry for your dog as well. 

I am sure more people will chime in and offer support if you post in the health section as well.

If you love the breed, then find a breeder that you really feel comfortable with who you feel will "air their laundry - both clean and dirty" honestly.


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## HuskyMal89 (May 19, 2013)

Very sorry to hear about your situation Kristi ....It is most definitely not your fault at all. I currently do not have a GSD but have huskies and malamutes....I have found in those breeds that for every one good ethical breeder there are 5 that are not up to those same good ethical standards. I am really starting to see that this applies to the GSD as well. I wish you and your dog nothing but the best! Give him the best life you can until you feel that it is best that your havoc cross over the rainbow bridge....always hard but even harder in situations like yours but you need to do what's best for him


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

so sorry about Havoc it is NOT your fault. 

I'm sorry your breeder put the blame on you, not fair, tho I wouldn't say it was her fault either unless she is intentionally breeding dogs that are known to have hip/spine issues.

I have had gsd's my entire life, never had a hip or elbow issue, but did have one with spine issues..Poop happens, it will never change my mind tho, to go with another breed.

Hang in there, I hope Havoc can get some relief


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Kristi, sorry to hear of your situation. The breed is rift with health and temperament issues because of the breeding practices, reminds me of the Collie breed, everyone wanted a dog like Lassie in looks and temperament.....look at them now.
The sad thing is that the breed is so backed into a corner genetically, because of people trying to replicate what they personally like, that you can have best of intentions and still it won't stop the slide. Unfortunately, the breed has to deteriorate further until people wake up and get it....hopefully your guy has a good painfree life....Good Luck.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

I'm sorry to hear about Havoc. Unfortunately there seem to be plenty of people out there who only divert blame instead of acknowledging and correcting problems.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

I'm really not blaming the breeder....I guess I'm just shocked at the complete lack of concern. I would have thought that producing a dog with this kind of a debilitating disease would be a breeders worst case scenario. 

What (if anything) can be done to get this breed healthy? How do you find healthy lines? 

(And for anyone interested here is his pedigree....he also has terrible allergies am hip dysplasia.)
** link removed by ADMIN. Just don't want this to turn into a "named" breeder bashing thread**
http://http://www.pedigreedatabase....ml?id=1871949-xtreme-havoc-von-den-hoehenluft


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

All you can do is make sure that the breeder has all of the information about your dog's condition that you have. After that it is up to them.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Personally, I would ask the neurologist for a write-up and send it to the breeder to PROVE it had nothing to do with how you raised the dog ... then write off that breeder. 

Obviously they don't care about what they are breeding. As a breeder myself, if someone called and told me that a pup I sold them had luxating patellas (something common in Cresteds) I would ask them to bring the pup to my vet for an exam. Not all vets are competent and I would want to hear it from a vet I trusted. If it was true I would then get in touch with all the puppy owners from that litter and have them bring their pups to my vet for exams to make sure no-one else had the problem. I would also pass the info on to the owner of the stud dog (it takes two to tango) so they knew.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Some people respond to bad news with denial, even anger. It is a coping mechanism.
I like the idea of sending her the neuro consult write-up and hopefully she (the breeder) can settle down and give it some thought after a bit.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

No breeder has litters that these things don't crop up, better breeders have it occur less, and not so good breeders have it occur more frequently. That is why guarantees give false expectations, because they guarantee nothing. I am not sure that the breeder isn't concerned....but after acknowledging your information, realistically what can you do? I mean after all is said and done, anger, condolences, indignation, or anything else by the breeder is not going to change anything. This comes with breeding....especially this breed as it is today. 
We can only learn from these and strive to not repeat certain results.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

I had a similar problem, and was accused of letting my dog get into rat poision when Kiya started having seizures. Only to find out that her sire produced 2 subsequent litters with a few pups that also had seizures.
I hope you can successfully manage your dogs health issues.
Regardless of all the issues my heart will always belong to GSD's.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

No one wants to produce dogs with problems. But finding that a dog does have issues, puts the breeder into a dilemma. They can either accept the verdict of your vet and then decide whether or not to breed sire and dam, or sire, or dam again. Or, they can fight the verdict, they can believe that it was due to something outside of their control, feeding the wrong food, lettting the dog jump up and down into a vehicle, running the dog into the ground on hard surfaces. They are thinking this because the alternative is to make hard decisions about their breeding stock. 

Some of it might be that they are afraid that you are going to want another dog or your money back. And some of it might be the thought of not breeding their dog again. 

Like Cliff said, stuff crops up when you are breeding, and everyone has a different idea of what that means for them and their dogs. I mean, some people on this site would say that if a dog or bitch created one dog or bitch that has hip dysplasia, they should never breed that dog and bitch again. Others would suggest not breeding the pair again. Others would look at the numbers and decide whether it makes sense to breed the dog and the bitch again. 

Sometimes it is hard to accept because you truly never had an issue before that you knew of. And sometimes it is hard to accept because in the 2 years that you have had your dog, they have bred this dog 3 more times, and there are 15-25 dogs out there already with the same genetics. If there is a problem, then yours is just the beginning of the nightmare. 

There are lots of reasons for siezures, so I am not surprised that a breeder would ask if the puppy got into something. 

In either case though, breeders should care about what happens to pups that they have bred, and try to provide as much moral support as possible, while honoring any contract that they made with you. 

It is far easier to go the extra mile for someone who admits they failed their dog, than it is for someone who believes that you caused the problem by making poor breeding decisions even if that is true. I am not suggesting that you should agree that this was environmental, but from a breeder viewpoint, it is easier to give a person another dog when they lost theirs due to a terrible accident, than it is to accept that the dog had a terrible genetic issue. But a good breeder would still want to know. Because good breeders do not want to produce puppies with serious health issues.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

I really do understand that breeders have a tough job and I really don't think that health problems coming up in their lines should be their responsibility in that thy should be giving replacements, refunds etc. but I do think that things like this should be taken seriously. Otherwise how do you keep or improve upon the health of the breed? I expected to be asked a million questions about exactly what has been going on with the dog, reports from the vet, neurologist and radiologist etc. I did not expect a 3 sentence email telling me that its hard to keep high drive dogs healthy. I would have been happy with a "okay, thanks for letting me know." It just feels like issues are so often swept under the carpet or blamed on the handler and now the breed is hugely suffering.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am sorry you are going through this. 

I think that your breeder was very unhelpful to you in their response. 

In the end though, you have a dog with some serious issues, and no matter what she said or did, it won't change that. 

Maybe some others that have dealt with this know of some good supplements, and maybe some therapies that will help your dog have the best life with however much time he has. 

It really sucks that your breeder doesn't realize that you are going through the Fiery Pit right now, and what you did not need was her defensive garbage. 



KristiM said:


> I really do understand that breeders have a tough job and I really don't think that health problems coming up in their lines should be their responsibility in that thy should be giving replacements, refunds etc. but I do think that things like this should be taken seriously. Otherwise how do you keep or improve upon the health of the breed? I expected to be asked a million questions about exactly what has been going on with the dog, reports from the vet, neurologist and radiologist etc. I did not expect a 3 sentence email telling me that its hard to keep high drive dogs healthy. I would have been happy with a "okay, thanks for letting me know." It just feels like issues are so often swept under the carpet or blamed on the handler and now the breed is hugely suffering.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I am so sorry about your dog. It looks like a very nice pedigree. Who would have thought you would be going through this right now? I sure would not have guessed it.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

robk , nice pedigree? what , then I see that the link was removed -- KristiM could you PM me the pedigree , not at all interested who the breeder is -- just interested in the genetics . Would appreciate this.

KristiM I do agree with this "
I really do understand that breeders have a tough job and I really don't think that health problems coming up in their lines should be their responsibility in that thy should be giving replacements, refunds etc. but I do think that things like this should be taken seriously. Otherwise how do you keep or improve upon the health of the breed? I expected to be asked a million questions about exactly what has been going on with the dog, reports from the vet, neurologist and radiologist etc. I did not expect a 3 sentence email telling me that its hard to keep high drive dogs healthy. I would have been happy with a "okay, thanks for letting me know." It just feels like issues are so often swept under the carpet or blamed on the handler and now the breed is hugely suffering. "

If I had something wrong with my dogs I want to know . I want to take pro-active action . 

You said your dog has dysplasia . Did you not get a guarantee for this . Get some satisfaction. No one forces a kennel to provide guarantees . I know it is expected here and in Europe it is not . If you provide a guarantee it has to be worth the paper it is written on. Or don't offer one.
The guarantee is a good incentive for the owner to examine the dog and give feedback so breeding decisions , management decisions can be made.

sound in mind and body. Can not be a working breed if both are not given priority.

__________________


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

I really don't care about my hip guarantee. All i want is for the info anout the health problems in my dog to be acknowledged. I feel like he is my responsibly now and don't see the point in having her give me another dog. I just hate to see people go through the same thing as me. This is beyond devastating, every time I look at him my heart breaks. I just hate the "it's not the breed/breeding, must be the handlers fault" mentality. 

Not sure why the pedigree was removed, would think that people would want to know, so that they can learn from it? Carmen I will pm you the pedigree.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

This thread is basically a complaint about a breeder which we don't allow. You have not named names so it has been allowed to stay open. When you posted the link to your dog it became more personal (your dog has a kennel name). If people are interested they can ask you to send the pedigree. 

ADMIN


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

I apologize, I really didn't intend this to be a breeder complaint. More a general discussion about the health problems that seem so prevalent in the breed and the attitude towards them. I just get kind of tired of reading thread after thread about pedigrees and temperament and no one ever seems to discuss pedigrees and health. There certainly doesn't seem to be a lack of threads about people having health problems with their GSDs....


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## HuskyMal89 (May 19, 2013)

Let's face it....we will never get the breed 100% healthy but as an owner of working breeds other than a GSD this a very common problem. I hate to lay blame on the breeders in general because they have a very tough job. The breeder in question here is not alone by any means and I think that is what needs to be cleaned up which in turn will clean up the breed. I personally think a minimum set of requirements should be met to be able to breed any breed of dogs. These standards would cover a range categories and once you passed these standards your allowed to breed and subject to random health and safety inspections at all times. Not just anyone should be allowed to breed and this where the problem is in my opinion. When we as humans finally realize our errors and decide to not give full rights to just anyone this problem will slowly get better. Until then, it will just get worse in dogs in general. I know some breeders already restrict full rights to very few people but the majority do not....


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

So sorry to hear about Havoc... wishing you the best.


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## jmdjack (Oct 2, 2009)

So sorry to hear about Havoc. The pedigree link you posted did not work for me but I had made a mental note of your dog's name from your previous descriptions of him and looked it up. I am no pedigree expert, but my thoughts were the same as RobK's - nice working pedigree and am surprised you find yourself in this situation. 

I understand the policy about breeder bashing, but for what it's worth, I did not think that is what was happening here. You clearly stated that you did not blame the breeder and I have an appreciation for your thoughtfulness and perspective in what undoubtedly is an emotional and trying time for you. 

I perceived the posting of the pedigree to be in the spirit of education and information. The removal of a link to a pedigree eliminates an educational and informational opportunity and leaves me a little unclear about where the line gets drawn on breeder bashing - now that KristiM has disclosed her dog's health problems, can she never post his name again because it contains the name of the kennel? 

Again, very sorry KristiM. My very best wishes to you and Havoc.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

Sorry to hear about Havoc and your breeder's response.

I have had similar responses in varying degrees from breeders and it has really had a big effect on how I handle situations with my buyers. I never want anyone to stare in disbelief at a communication from a breeder like I did.

You know what? It sounds like you are committed to do what is right for Havoc and I thank you for that. 

Hugs to you both.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

selzer said:


> There are lots of reasons for siezures, so I am not surprised that a breeder would ask if the puppy got into something.


There's a big difference between asking and accusing.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Poor Havoc! I am so sorry Kristi that you are dealing with such issues with such a young dog. Most dogs I have know of with spinal issues are older dogs, and work/physical stress is usually pointed at as the cause....my Kougar, who I PTS last week had spinal issues the last year..lots of training, lots of working on novice helpers, I think he got jammed towards the end and that contributed to his problems.... I have never heard of a dog that young having degenerative disk issues and was somewhat confounded at this being considered a genetic predisposition....I know there are certain lines that tend to have back problems - and as I thought I knew Havoc's pedigree (confirmed) know the one obvious suspect is not there...

Does he have a transitional vertebrae? Or cauda equina? There is another person with a dog on the board who recently posted his issues....again, a dog from very very popular lines, albeit showlines for that one....

I think, as a breeder, I would be much more concerned for you and what you are feeling, and I would investigate as fully as I could whether there is a strong genetic predisposition for spinal problems and hips, or if it was a random bad luck genetic lottery - the things I think might be questionable in the pedigree are not expressed from what we have discussed in PMs....

Having once bred a litter from a sire and dam whose sires were 2 of the most popular breeding dogs of their generations, and getting two dwarfs from the pedigree, I know that caca can happen from 10-12 generations back! Not that it is any consolation, but there is nothing that I can see in the pedigree, or know of in other closely related dogs that would have made me hesitate to use either of the parents for breeding (excepting some questions on temperament specifics). Both parents are from sires used a great deal, the mother lines are pretty common as well....and the worst thing I see in the pair is a possible tendency for monorchids.

With skeletal weaknesses, and a dog who is high drive, doing athletic work, it is unfortunate that sustaining various damage is going to be too easy....but I would never blame the owner for the issues....

<<Hugs>>> Sorry - I know it sucks! 

Lee


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

I really appreciate all the support! Basically he has disc herniation (L7) causing compression of the cauda equina (the cauda equina just refers to the part of the spinal cord that is affected, its basically the tail end of the spinal cord.) And he has bilateral, marked stenosis of the intervertebral foramina (this is the degeneration part.) I want to cry every time I read the radiology report, I have an EMT back ground, so I know just enough about what this really means to scare me 

I am sure that Havoc is just really unlucky but it is certainly something for people serious in the breed to stick in the back of their mind. As a buyer I have to take responsibility here too...when I was looking at breeders I put WAY too much emphasis on getting a really competitive schutzhund dog. I realize that consumers are what pushes the direction of the market, I certainly know better now. Sports in dog breeding/buying should be secondary to healthy, stable animals.

Part of the reason the response upset me so much is because I have been beating the crap out of myself over this, and she couldn't have known that. For all she knows I am the type of person who doesn't take responsibility for anything. I have felt for a while (before havoc ever had any symptoms) that something just wasn't right with his rear end. It was never anything more than a _feeling_ and I ignored it. I often think that if I hadn't ignored it and been more proactive that we wouldn't be in this situation. Can't go back in time though and there is nothing I can do now to change our situation. I just really wish that this breed was healthier, I am not going to be getting another GSD as my next dog, I just feel that I cannot take the risk. But I am super hopeful that people will be more upfront about issues their dogs are having and that maybe years down the road when I am ready for another GSD there will be less of a risk.


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## GSD5150 (Apr 16, 2013)

So sorry to hear this! My boy was thought to have LS Disease as well. Went to several specialists and quite a few every day vets. 3 x-rays later LS Disease was suspected from all 4 specialists. I never went through with the myelogram because they wanted 2000 for it which was something I couldn't afford at that point. I was heartbroken being that my boy wasn't even two yet. At 3 years of age as if March 24th and 8 months of Prolotherapy treatments later he is the same active crazy 1 year old dog that I knew before. Prolo saved us both. It was way less invasive than surgery, which was a last resort for me. At least your breeder responded to you. The person that bred my dog never returned any of the 5 phone calls. The last and final message I left her I told her the medical issue at hand and that I wasn't calling because I wanted anything from her but wanted to alert her because his litter waa the fourth repeat breeding. I wish the best for your baby!

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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

Thanks for the suggestion! I will look into Prolotherapy, I also want to look into cortisone shots. Apparently the vets around here don't like to use them. This is so tough for him as he does not slow down at all even when he is in a great deal of pain! We were camping all weekend and we have to take him because he can't be cared for by anyone else and it was a total nightmare! I have to figure something out because I certainly can't keep this up and I know its selfish but I refuse to not do anything all summer or not let my other dog not have any fun because of this.

I'm glad to hear your boy is doing well GSD5150. What kind of symptoms does/did he have?

ETA: Just looked up Prolotherapy, sounds very interesting. The major problem that I have with trying to do this (or acupuncture) is that my boy is VERY aggressive at the vet. He would have to be heavily sedated to do any of this stuff. For his MRI it took 2 hours to get him sedated enough to get him in a kennel safely. They had to do an IM sedation, wait over an hour and then had to do IV sedation and wait another 45 minutes before he would stop fighting. Maybe if I could find a vet that could just shoot him with a tranquilizer dart.....lol


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## GSD5150 (Apr 16, 2013)

I'm glad to hear your boy is doing well GSD5150. What kind of symptoms does/did he have?

ETA: Just looked up Prolotherapy, sounds very interesting. The major problem that I have with trying to do this (or acupuncture) is that my boy is VERY aggressive at the vet. He would have to be heavily sedated to do any of this stuff. For his MRI it took 2 hours to get him sedated enough to get him in a kennel safely. They had to do an IM sedation, wait over an hour and then had to do IV sedation and wait another 45 minutes before he would stop fighting. Maybe if I could find a vet that could just shoot him with a tranquilizer dart.....lol[/QUOTE]

Dillinger isn't very social either. It was a nightmare and a half the first two prolo sessions. He fights sedation as well. A nice muzzle and momma by his side (he does MUCH better with me) seemed to do the trick for him. 
As far as his symptoms I started to notice in late September that he wasn't as into protection training as he usually was but I just brushed it off as us learning to bite a moving target and him not being confident in doing it yet. Some time during the year I also noticed that Dillinger wasn't jumping on me to greet me when I came home. Like a dummy I blew it off as him finally having manners. He had completely stopped giving me "hugs" all together. If I patted my chest to invite him up he would sit and put his front feet on me. I thought that was weird but blew it off. Flash forward to early January we were going to leave to training and I told him to go potty and he stretched and had his butt in the air and I lightly tapped his but and said excitedly "let's go!" And he screamed bloodly murder. It scared me so I sat on the sofa and called him up and once he put his front feet up he screamed again. Worst nightmare ever.
He couldn't run, jump or play tug. If he got into an upright position he would cry. It was a pain. It took about 6 months post treatment for him to forget that he can do all of the things he loves pain free. I feel your pain I have two other dogs as well that I had to juggle along with the crippled dog. I hope all goes well with yours! Keep us updated!



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