# Unleashed dogs



## Bridget

Husband and I have gotten so frustrated in the past about people, especially in parks, having their dogs off leash when the dog is not well trained to stay with the owner. No problem if the dog is truly voice trained, but most dogs are not. We have pretty much stopped walking our lab at all because he doesn't like other dogs (loves people) and every time some off leash dog would come running up to him and, even though our dog was on leash and controlled, it was a big problem. So, Loki doesn't get walks because other people don't control their dogs. Sad, but we compensate in other ways. 

Fast forward now to Zeus. Zeus is an American bulldog mix, very nice dog, but dislikes other dogs. Zeus was in our local shelter for more than a year before some girls that live in an apartment fell in love with him and adopted him. Zeus is a lot of dog, so we hoped it would work out and it seemed it was, as the girls were committed. Last night one of them returned Zeus to the shelter (the other was too upset). Guess what their undoing was? Other tenants with unleashed dogs who would run up to Zeus. So now poor Zeus is back at the shelter, not because he wasn't well taken care of and controlled, but once again because other folks don't control their dogs. Sad. I wish every time someone takes their under trained dog off leash in public they would realize that it might be a big problem for someone else's dog. It's one thing if the dog stays within a few feet of his owner and immediately comes back to heel when asked, but a different thing for the dog to be running 50 yards ahead of the owner and greeting every person and dog he sees. Sorry for the long post. I am just so frustrated.


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## GSKnight

I hear ya and agree. 

I used to go to an on-leash park all the time, an older "gentleman" would always have his lab and doberman off leash... the two would come running at Viktor & I... there was never a dog-fight, because I would stand between the other dogs and mine. But, it did end up in a shouting match between the owner and myself. I told him to control his dogs and not let them run at us... he called me a synonym for a cat... I informed him this "cat" was more than willing to put the dogs in our vehicles and settle the matter...


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## pyratemom

Been there - done that - got the tee shirt! I hate off leash dogs that are out of control, and especially when their owners have no idea that their dog is the problem and they (the owner) are the problem, not my leashed dog. I have run into so many people that are either just plain stupid or have no care about others. One lady walks her terrier without a leash (she carries the leash - big deal) and it runs into yards and into the street and she just wanders along in a fog. One day I came around the corner of a building and saw her walking carrying her leash. I shouted out "where is your dog" and she just looked puzzled and motioned to somewhere behind her. I immediately turned around and got behind a gate and closed it just seconds before her unleashed dog ran into my dogs mouth. I had warned her before there is a leash law not only to protect people from bad dogs but to protect her dog from getting hit, getting bit, or whatever but she doesn't get it. She is such a space cadet she sees nothing wrong. Yesterday she came running toward me on the road with her dog, on leash for a change, but she was running directly toward me. I yelled to her to walk please while passing by but she just said "oh its just the dog not me." What does that even mean? I've been working on LAT with Raina for quite some time and most of the time it works, just when I run into weirdos like her that don't understand my dog does not want your dog in her face. Okay, rant over. Sorry to carry on.


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## selzer

People who have friendly dogs, just do not see the need. They figure if your dog is not friendly, than it shouldn't be out and about. Or they just don't think at all. It is frustrating. I don't have an answer for it. You can call animal control or the park ranger or the police, but they don't seem to care unless there are injuries.


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## Blanketback

All the dogs around here are unleashed. If you're lucky, their owner is nearby. My only answer is that the dogs need to be trained to ignore other dogs. They can dislike them and they don't need to play with them, but they need to be trained to pass them by. I know it can be done, since I've done it. I'd never give my dog up for something like that!


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## HarleyTheGSD

I completely understand! Dogs are off leash all the time here. Some seem friendly, and luckily their owners are nearby, but I don't think Varick would take too kindly to a strange dog running to him. People definitely need to think about all possibilities, and just because they have a friendly dog, it doesn't stop an unfriendly dog from attacking.


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## Bridget

Blanketback, I really get where you are coming from and I agree. The women who adopted Zeus were young, probably just post-college maybe and live in an apartment. I am assuming they probably don't have the space (or the knowhow) to train him on this. I think they realized that with all the loose dogs rushing up that this was a disaster waiting to happen and were probably right to bring him back. But still, poor Zeus. I understand, however, that you can't control the world; all you can do is be sure your dog is under control and managed.


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## Blanketback

It just really sucks for Zeus that he's lost his loving home because these young women can't take care of him properly. I know AmBulls can be a handful, and they can be large and powerful animals. But people need to step up and be reasonable, in their expectations for the dog, and most importantly be honest in their capabilities. Why couldn't they have adopted a fun-loving, smaller, uber-friendly dog instead? This is very sad.


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## Stosh

Go to Leerburg Dog Training | 17,500 pages of dog training information, 750 free dog training streaming videos, free eBooks, podcasts, by Ed Frawley and Michael Ellis and look at some of the articles and videos about what to do when you encounter off leash, out of control dogs.


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## Harry and Lola

I'm confused why Loki has to miss out on walks because of other dogs in parks being unleashed, why don't you walk Loki through busy streets where there won't be (or at least shouldn't be) dogs off leash? 

Stay away from the parks and find areas where there are no unleashed dogs.

You could also train Loki to ignore other dogs and to not react when another unleashed dog approaches. I know this can be difficult but is possible.


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## Msmaria

I can't tell you how many times on trails in our area we've rounded a corner smack into another dog that is illegally off leash, with the owner some 30 ft away. Sometimes those dogs are not dog friendly and thankfully my son has always been with us to step in front of that dog until the owner gets there. Right after we pass they take their dogs off the leash again.

Proof that there's dumb people outside of the dog park. I had to just get that in lol


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## Serbrider

My older dog is off leash 95% of the time we go places. The difference is that I live in a very rural area, and 95% of the time we are on private property with only familiar dogs, if there are any dogs.

In the other 5% of the time, when we go to parks or public areas, she is on her leash. She hates her leash as she prefers to explore, but it's for her safety and the safety of others, as she is NOT reliable off leash, and while she is not aggressive, she is a reactive dog that if she comes across another dog, she will mirror that dog's behaviors. So if another dog is tense or aggressive, my older girl will act in kind.

I occasionally run into people with loose dogs, and while I don't mind loose dogs in general, it's the owner's lack of concern when I explain that my dog is reactive, and they need to get control of theirs. And then when my dog reacts instinctively and protects herself (she's never bitten) they get all mad and tell me I shouldn't have an aggressive dog out and about.


Although, I have to admit I'm not completely innocent. I used to allow her off leash in the past. I was only 13/14 at the tone, and not as "wise" as I am now. What made me start leashing my dog in public places was one particular instance. My dog was running past a lady with two little dogs. Even though my dog was ignoring her and just walking by, she scooped up her dogs and fearfully asked me to put her on a leash. I quickly did so, and apologized, and tried to explain that she wouldn't do anything. She said she didn't think she would, but she is afraid of large loose dogs because a year previously one of her shih-tzu's was killed and mutilated in front if her by a loose dog whose owner made very little effort to stop his dog or control him, and then just left. And that dog was big and black like my girl.

And while I know my girl would never do anything like that, I never want to put someone through that kind of fear ever again. So after that, unless I'm on private property or an enclosed public area, my dog is always on a leash.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## martemchik

I've noticed that most people grab/get their dog real quick when they see me walking through with a GSD. I have excellent voice control over my boy...and if that fails, there is always "tennis ball" control. But I'm very good about leashing when I see other dogs. It's almost a shock to me when someone else lets their dogs run up to my dog off-leash.

But what selzer said is 100% true...if your dog is out in public, public thinks that its 100% safe. This thread reminds me of all the "kid ran up to my dog and hugged it, how irresponsible are the parents?" threads...most people just expect that if your dog is out and about, it can handle anything and everything thrown at it. A leash...doesn't signal "problem dog" anymore since a leash is required in 99% of this country. I think back in the day, when more people were able to walk their dogs without a leash, a leash was more of a signal to others that the dog wasn't 100% trusted...today, every dog needs a leash no matter what.

I am a bit of the feeling that if you're going to a heavily populated/used area by dogs and their owners, and you know that people tend to let their dogs run loose there...you're kind of setting yourself up for issues by bringing your reactive dog there. There are at least 10 parks around me where I can take my dog, I know that two of them have a very loose leash policy (unspoken) even though the law states a 6 foot leash is necessary. If my dog was reactive...it would be stupid of me to keep taking him there knowing that people do what they do, and its almost like I'd be trying to prove a point and ruin the fun for the majority that uses that park with their friendly dogs. Sorry, sometimes you just have to accept the fact that you can't take your dog to a certain place even though you are legally allowed to. In my situation...what would be so wrong with taking my dog to one of the 8 parks where dogs aren't off leash? To me...someone that keeps going to an area where they know they have those issues is just trying to prove a point/educate people rather than truly caring about their dogs needs and seeing other ways to meet those needs.


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## boomer11

pyratemom said:


> Yesterday she came running toward me on the road with her dog, on leash for a change, but she was running directly toward me. I yelled to her to walk please while passing by .


why do people have to walk past you? what if i was a jogger?


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## Harry and Lola

We encounter off leash dogs in on leash areas sometimes too, I am training my dogs to ignore them, which is working really well as long as the other dog doesn't rush towards us. If the unleashed dog is just minding his business, we can walk past with no reaction from my two, however those that want to approach us - mainly Harry will react, so we just keep walking - fast, and hope for the best. So far we have only had a Husky that rushed at us make contact with Harry.


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## Harry and Lola

martemchik said:


> I've noticed that most people grab/get their dog real quick when they see me walking through with a GSD.


I have noticed this too, some people quickly get their dogs on lead when they see 2 GSDs, which I'm always grateful for as that indicates to me that the owner is not 100% sure of their dog and/or their voice control over their dog.


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## Longfisher

*Leeburg*

I always charge dogs which are off leash and which challenge my leashed GSD (he's absolutely never off a leash if we're off our property). It gives the dog a great deal of respect for me as the pack leader. Most of the time it turns the unleashed animal around.

BTW, Leeburg says to do this. I didn't know that when I started doing this. But it's comfort to hear that we're doing the right thing according to an expert dog trainer.

I've had one dog that took an interest in me when I charged, lowered his chest to the ground in a crouch, snarled and barked while coming forward towards me. He got the spray and left like a ballistic missile.

I've also had to stand down the owners when I do this. It's OK. They can have spray (or worse) too.

Even weeks after these encounters I've never seen those dogs off leash again.

LF


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## DobbyDad

Longfisher said:


> I always charge dogs which are off leash and which challenge my leashed GSD (he's absolutely never off a leash if we're off our property). It gives the dog a great deal of respect for me as the pack leader. Most of the time it turns the unleashed animal around.
> 
> BTW, Leeburg says to do this. I didn't know that when I started doing this. But it's comfort to hear that we're doing the right thing according to an expert dog trainer.
> 
> I've had one dog that took an interest in me when I charged, lowered his chest to the ground in a crouch, snarled and barked while coming forward towards me. He got the spray and left like a ballistic missile.
> 
> I've also had to stand down the owners when I do this. It's OK. They can have spray (or worse) too.
> 
> Even weeks after these encounters I've never seen those dogs off leash again.
> 
> LF



???????


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## Gretchen

I certainly understand how you feel. If I'm in a remote area , I understand there may be dogs off leash, I've done it myself. But you think common sense would prevail if you are in a more populated and busy area like near an apartment, for everyone's sake the dogs would be on leash.

Last year when Molly was recovering from surgery, we could only take her out on controlled leashed walks. We went to our local park which is under strict leash laws and generally has lots of people (playground, baseball, soccer, etc) but there were 4 off leash dogs, one guy was throwing the chuck it which makes all dogs, leashed and unleashed want to chase. I asked him to stop as we walked by, he gave me heck. I went home and emailed the police chief to crack down on the unleashed dogs here. There is a time and place for everything.


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## martemchik

Gretchen said:


> Last year when Molly was recovering from surgery, we could only take her out on controlled leashed walks. We went to our local park which is under strict leash laws and generally has lots of people (playground, baseball, soccer, etc) but there were 4 off leash dogs, one guy was throwing the chuck it which makes all dogs, leashed and unleashed want to chase. I asked him to stop as we walked by, he gave me heck. I went home and emailed the police chief to crack down on the unleashed dogs here. There is a time and place for everything.


See...but if that dog isn't hurting anyone, is just going to get its ball and bringing it back, and YOU can't control your dog from going after the ball, IMO YOU should do something.

Sorry, I hate involving the police in something like that and ruining someone's ability to do something with their dog that is clearly well trained and not affecting anyone. It's different if the guy is throwing the ball between a bunch of people/where people are sitting and relaxing, but if he's staked out a 20 yard piece of land for himself and his dog...why do you have to walk that close to him anyways?

Again...all depends on the size of the park and what's going on in there. But the park I go to is about 400 acres and its not hard to stake out some land and have some fun there with your dog. I would never have my dog off-leash in a park where there are more than 5 people in a football sized area.

Too many times I see the on-leash/off-leash debate start because people are angry that their dog isn't trained well enough or doesn't have the correct temperament to be off-leash in an area where although its illegal, there is an "unwritten acceptance" of good dogs being able to be off-leash. And so they want to make a fuss even though the off-leash dog isn't bothering them or their dog.

I equate this to people, coming to a park where an unsanctioned baseball game is going on, and just plopping down in the middle of centerfield and then making a fuss about the baseball game going on around them.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Depends.

If you go to an area that clearly is ON leash only (and most communities/states have leash laws) and you are going there for on leash exercise you should NOT have to worry about off leash dogs.

If you go to a park/place where the rules allow off leash dogs then that sets different expectations.

If any rule/law can be disobeyed per personal perogative why even have leash laws to begin with?

If I am in a 'on leash' only designated area abiding the law and an off leash dog gets into a fight with my dog the owner of the off leash dog will be at fault and liable.


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## Heidigsd

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Depends.
> 
> If you go to an area that clearly is ON leash only (and most communities/states have leash laws) and you are going there for on leash exercise you should NOT have to worry about off leash dogs.
> 
> If you go to a park/place where the rules allow off leash dogs then that sets different expectations.
> 
> If any rule/law can be disobeyed per personal perogative why even have leash laws to begin with?
> 
> If I am in a 'on leash' only designated area abiding the law and an off leash dog gets into a fight with my dog the owner of the off leash dog will be at fault and liable.


 Exactly...the law applies to everyone :thumbup:


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## martemchik

So am I to assume you guys never speed? Follow every single driving law to a tee...

Don't ever step foot on anyone else's property without their permission...your dog only walks on the sidewalk next to you when you're walking?

I'm in agreement that if you're on leash another dog shouldn't bother you...but if my dog is off leash, in a part of the park and I'm just playing fetch with him and its just run, get ball, bring it back, and he's not even looking at any other dog...would you feel the need to call the police and make me leash him? Or assuming that the park in question is HUGE, and you can easily get by me/avoid me on your way through the park, are you going to be one of those people that will walk close by me just to prove a point?

I'm all for following laws...but you're lying through your teeth if you tell me that you don't bend them on a daily basis.


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## Gwenhwyfair

That's why I used the word 'expectations'.

Reality is that some people will blow off laws. Principle is the law is in place for a reason and people who follow the law shouldn't have to yield to those who don't.

If a person is speeding and causes an accident because of it they will be liable. 

It doesn't follow that people who want to speed should continue to do so and those of us who want to drive safely should stay off the roads. 

People who get caught are ticketed, if they cause an accident they are liable. 

(p.s. no actually I don't speed, well anymore, I don't want to get a ticket and it's a lot less stressful)



martemchik said:


> So am I to assume you guys never speed? Follow every single driving law to a tee...
> 
> Don't ever step foot on anyone else's property without their permission...your dog only walks on the sidewalk next to you when you're walking?
> 
> I'm in agreement that if you're on leash another dog shouldn't bother you...but if my dog is off leash, in a part of the park and I'm just playing fetch with him and its just run, get ball, bring it back, and he's not even looking at any other dog...would you feel the need to call the police and make me leash him? Or assuming that the park in question is HUGE, and you can easily get by me/avoid me on your way through the park, are you going to be one of those people that will walk close by me just to prove a point?
> 
> I'm all for following laws...but you're lying through your teeth if you tell me that you don't bend them on a daily basis.


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## KaiserandStella

Harry and Lola said:


> I'm confused why Loki has to miss out on walks because of other dogs in parks being unleashed, why don't you walk Loki through busy streets where there won't be (or at least shouldn't be) dogs off leash?
> 
> Stay away from the parks and find areas where there are no unleashed dogs.
> 
> You could also train Loki to ignore other dogs and to not react when another unleashed dog approaches. I know this can be difficult but is possible.


This is exactly what I was thinking. Those people with off-leash dogs in parks are probably not going to stop doing that any time soon. You can't control what other people do but you can your own actions and that of your dogs. Why not just walk Loki in areas where there are little to no dogs off-leash until you have more control over your own dog? I've encountered countless dogs busting out of their yards/garages and people walking their dogs off-leash. I even had a rottweiler come at me and my dog that jumped off the back of a moving truck. This dog was chained and got dragged a few feet before breaking loose. If my dog was seriously aggressive towards other dogs and I couldn't handle him these situations would have been pretty bad but my dog is calm, unafraid, and looking for direction on what to do when these things happen. I don't worry at all about other people and their off-leash dogs. No panic if I see strays or off-leash dogs coming towards us because I've been there done that and I know that I can handle the situation and protect my dog.


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## blehmannwa

I call Animal Control on unleashed dogs in the park on a regular basis. Why? It is a small park attached to an elementary school. There is a lovely off leash park about a half mile away. I don't take my dog reactive dog to the off leash park, why should I put up with people and dogs too lazy to avail themselves of the legal facility?
AC is pretty great. If you report off leash dogs and have a license number or address of the owner, they will send a warning letter.
This is a small park and there is literally no place to play fetch where you can't be seen by other dogs and people. Dogs chasing balls is real trigger and even when I use it as a "training opportunity" it is a nuisance.


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## Gretchen

martemchik said:


> See...but if that dog isn't hurting anyone, is just going to get its ball and bringing it back, and YOU can't control your dog from going after the ball, IMO YOU should do something.
> 
> Sorry, I hate involving the police in something like that and ruining someone's ability to do something with their dog that is clearly well trained and not affecting anyone. It's different if the guy is throwing the ball between a bunch of people/where people are sitting and relaxing, but if he's staked out a 20 yard piece of land for himself and his dog...why do you have to walk that close to him anyways?
> 
> Again...all depends on the size of the park and what's going on in there. But the park I go to is about 400 acres and its not hard to stake out some land and have some fun there with your dog. I would never have my dog off-leash in a park where there are more than 5 people in a football sized area.
> 
> Too many times I see the on-leash/off-leash debate start because people are angry that their dog isn't trained well enough or doesn't have the correct temperament to be off-leash in an area where although its illegal, there is an "unwritten acceptance" of good dogs being able to be off-leash. And so they want to make a fuss even though the off-leash dog isn't bothering them or their dog.
> 
> I equate this to people, coming to a park where an unsanctioned baseball game is going on, and just plopping down in the middle of centerfield and then making a fuss about the baseball game going on around them.


You write as if you were with me, and I wish you were to witness the situation. This is a well used, small neighborhood park. The incident was when the park was full of people, many small children. Our whole town is known to have little tolerance for off leash because it is small, densely populated and little open space. There are areas in my county that are well known that it is OK to blow off the leash laws, this was not one of them. I have the legal right to walk safely with my dog - period. NO excuses for the other dog owners. If I was walking at 6am, with nobody in the park but a few off leash dogs that may be different. I don't bend the laws on a daily basis. Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking.


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## Chip18

This thread should be helpful to some of you. 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-if-another-dog-attacks-your-while-leash.html

I don't care what other folks do or don't do with there dogs or leash or not. My dogs were trained to ignore other dogs. They are under my control off leash or not.If I'm walking my guys and a strange dog approaches, that dog will not know if my dogs are "friendly or not" another dog has got to go through "me" to get to my dogs.

They were taught to stay behind me and I deal with intruders! I don't do dog parks and don't gamble with "I thought he was friendly??" folks. 

Combination of luck, skill and training but my guys have never had to deal with a "bad" dog situation themselves thats "my"job.


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## Chip18

Aww man that sucks! I'm a bully breed fan, my next dog will be a Boxer and the third is gonna be a Boxer/ABD mix. 

I did bully breeds for 10 years the GSD was my new dog and I had to learn to do things a bit different with him.

Bully breed in general if it's not a puppy and a male, pretty sure you can just assume it's a Dominant Dog, not going to be a dog park dog. It can be taught to ignore other dogs: 






Unless your dealing with a dog that has alot of emotional baggage, teaching them to ignore other dogs isn't to terribly difficult,

That part first, then train the dog to stay behind you when a strange dog approaches and let you handle it.


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## martemchik

Gretchen said:


> You write as if you were with me, and I wish you were to witness the situation. This is a well used, small neighborhood park. The incident was when the park was full of people, many small children. Our whole town is known to have little tolerance for off leash because it is small, densely populated and little open space. There are areas in my county that are well known that it is OK to blow off the leash laws, this was not one of them. I have the legal right to walk safely with my dog - period. NO excuses for the other dog owners. If I was walking at 6am, with nobody in the park but a few off leash dogs that may be different. I don't bend the laws on a daily basis. Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking.


It's not just particularly you, just that IMO your reaction is way overboard...I know 100% that the sheriff and the police department in my area have better things to do than chase around owners and off-leash dogs.

In your situation, being a small park, things are different. Like I said, I'd probably be mad too, but at the same time, if I saw all that going on, I'd find somewhere else to walk my dog. It clearly sounds like you were trying to make a point and teach someone a lesson rather than just caring about your dogs well-being and what is best for the majority. You had a lot of options, you chose to continue walking through that park for no other reason than you are LEGALLY allowed to. If your town has so little green space, and is so against off-leash dogs, I'm kind of surprised that you even ran into that situation...out of all the people that you claimed were at that park, YOU seem to be the only person that took issue with the off-leash dogs. If the whole town cared so much, I'd expect a trooper to have been there way before you even stepped foot into the park.

And sorry, but in your situation, you made it sound like the dog that was playing fetch didn't bother you at all, didn't come up to your dog at all, it was just the throwing of the ball that you took issue with. If your dog is so ball driven that you can't control it in that type of situation and have to ask people to stop throwing a ball, you might want to rethink going to public areas where people play fetch or catch. What would happen if you had walked by two 10 year olds throwing a baseball back and forth? Would you have asked them to stop? Do you have the authority to ask people to stop whatever recreational activity they are doing just because it might be an inconvenience to you?

Sorry...not trying to pick on you. Just stating that we sometimes like to blow things way more out of proportion than necessary. The law, and the police department, is not always the right answer to any situation you might see a problem with.


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## martemchik

Again...its like walking into the middle of a baseball game at a park and just having a picnic in the middle of center field. Just because you can LEGALLY do something, doesn't always mean you should or you have the right to.


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## boomer11

110% agree with martemchik. If you call the cops on someone because they are playing fetch or walking or minding their own business Imo you are extremely petty. 

I've done activities off leash with my dog 20 yards from a bball court where kids played. I've trained in an elementary school yard 20 feet from the playground. I've played fetch in the outfield of a baseball field where there was a little girls softball league (they don't hit it very far) with a bunch of parents sitting behind home plate watching. I've seen cops drive by while I'm playing in a busy park. I've ran on tracks and trails off leash. Not once has anyone asked me to leash my dog. If the dog is no bother to you and is minding it's own business then what's the big deal? I actually live two houses down from a cop and I play in the front yard off leash all the time. 

If the dog runs up to your dog and they get in a fight then of course the unleashed dog is liable. They should be punish to the full extent of the law. But if they are minding their own business then Imo so should you. 

Maybe I just live in a happy town but I've received 100% well trained comments and 0% leash your dog comments. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Gwenhwyfair

The people have reported off leash dogs explained their reasoning. 

I've seen off leash dogs in some of the on leash areas I train at. I have NOT reported them but I can imagine circumstances where I would.

At the end of the day, though, the petty ones are those who think they can blow off the law, day after day, encourage others who see it done that it's o.k. for their untrained dog to be off leash too and so forth.

The reason you're liable with your off leash dog if it gets in a fight is because YOU were in the wrong. The law is meant to prevent such and incident from occurring in the first place.

So if you don't want to deal with 'petty' people keep your dog leashed in areas designated as such.

Simple. 






boomer11 said:


> 110% agree with martemchik. If you call the cops on someone because they are playing fetch or walking or minding their own business Imo you are extremely petty.
> 
> I've done activities off leash with my dog 20 yards from a bball court where kids played. I've trained in an elementary school yard 20 feet from the playground. I've played fetch in the outfield of a baseball field where there was a little girls softball league (they don't hit it very far) with a bunch of parents sitting behind home plate watching. I've seen cops drive by while I'm playing in a busy park. I've ran on tracks and trails off leash. Not once has anyone asked me to leash my dog. If the dog is no bother to you and is minding it's own business then what's the big deal? I actually live two houses down from a cop and I play in the front yard off leash all the time.
> 
> If the dog runs up to your dog and they get in a fight then of course the unleashed dog is liable. They should be punish to the full extent of the law. But if they are minding their own business then Imo so should you.
> 
> Maybe I just live in a happy town but I've received 100% well trained comments and 0% leash your dog comments.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Another thought, and we discuss this here all the time, a lot of people think they have well trained, sweet dogs when in fact they don't. 

So there cannot be a presumption that people who take their dogs off leash in an ON leash area will always have extremely well trained dogs with a great recall. That's false.

Really, when a person knowingly lets their dog off leash in an on leash area they do so because they feel they are in a position of authority that supersedes the law. 

That's pretty darn subjective, too.


----------



## Chip18

KaiserandStella said:


> This is exactly what I was thinking. Those people with off-leash dogs in parks are probably not going to stop doing that any time soon. You can't control what other people do but you can your own actions and that of your dogs. Why not just walk Loki in areas where there are little to no dogs off-leash until you have more control over your own dog? I've encountered countless dogs busting out of their yards/garages and people walking their dogs off-leash. I even had a rottweiler come at me and my dog that jumped off the back of a moving truck. This dog was chained and got dragged a few feet before breaking loose.


 Uh wow!!!



KaiserandStella said:


> If my dog was seriously aggressive towards other dogs and I couldn't handle him these situations would have been pretty bad but my dog is calm, unafraid, and looking for direction on what to do when these things happen. I don't worry at all about other people and their off-leash dogs. No panic if I see strays or off-leash dogs coming towards us because I've been there done that and I know that I can handle the situation and protect my dog.


 Yep, that! ...I don't really care what other folks chose to do myself,a dog comes after mine...he'll deal with me!


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## TommyB681

Most places have leash laws in public places that should be followed. Even if your dog is trained to perfection the other dogs probably arent and its safer for your dog to be on the leash. I try to find pretty secluded places to let Penny off the leash where I know there isnt much traffic human or dog


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## Harry and Lola

Gwenhwyfair said:


> At the end of the day, though, the petty ones are those who think they can blow off the law, day after day, encourage others who see it done that it's o.k. for their untrained dog to be off leash too and so forth.
> 
> The reason you're liable with your off leash dog if it gets in a fight is because YOU were in the wrong. The law is meant to prevent such and incident from occurring in the first place.)


Couldn't agree more, laws are there for a reason and to protect everyone, just because a person feels they have 100% success with recall should not mean the law does not apply to them. All dogs can lose focus on the handler, no matter how well trained the dog is, you just never know and dogs are so quick. I think people that allow their dogs to be off lead in on lead areas where there are other dogs around are dangerous.


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## KaiserandStella

Chip18 said:


> Uh wow!!!
> 
> Yep, that! ...I don't really care what other folks chose to do myself,a dog comes after mine...he'll deal with me!


Yeah, I thought I had seen it all till that happened. That Rottweiler was on a mission. Didn't care that it was chained to the truck. After he was dragged and broke free he came charging at me full force. I put my dog behind me and was ready to defend him. The Rottweiler lunged towards my face but ended up air snapping near my arm didn't bite. He lost nerve and backed up, paced and then tried to get at my dog from behind. I turned to face him at every angle that he tried. Just when it seemed he was giving up the guy in the truck finally came up and got him. No harm done but if it was someone else with an aggressive dog that Rotty had gone after it would have been a nasty brawl.

Every incident I've had my dog was on leash. I always follow the leash law myself though I understand why some people bend the leash law. It's a risk to go where there may be off-leash dogs running up but there is also a risk anywhere else too. I'm not going to let that deter me personally. Any dog coming up will have to go through me to get to my dog and he is fine with that. I understand it is very frustrating for leash abiding folks with hard to handle and dog-aggressive dogs but there is always the option to go other places with no off-leash dogs rather than deprive your dog of any outdoor walk/activity at least until you can work through issues and have a better ability to keep dogs at bay while maintaining your own dog calm and under control. Then it won't ruin your day to have to deal with other peoples dogs running loose. It isn't going to change any time soon. Plus, there is always freak accidents like what I dealt with the Rottweiler.


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## Gwenhwyfair

In blue.

No. NO. and NO.

That's unsupportable reasoning.

On the one had you're saying, in principle, it's o.k. for people to let dogs off leash everywhere, even if it's posted as an on leash area.

Then on the other hand you tell people who need or WANT** to find a place where there will absolutely not be people thinking it's o.k. to let their dogs off leash? 

You can't have it both ways. 

That's the problem, if people think they can blow off leash laws they're going to blow them off everywhere and those who need or want on leash exercise are basically told they have to yield to the law breakers?? That greatly limits where they can go.

Really, MOST of these areas are set up and ordinances created at the LOCAL level. If folks want more off leash areas they should invest some time in attending local/county meetings and petition their elected officials to designate off leash areas officially. Not expect everyone to yield to them and their off leash dog as to when they feel the law should or should not be obeyed.

It's about reasonable expectations. If I go to an area officially designated as on leash I have every reason to expect others will respect the laws AND the fellow dog owners. If I go to an off leash area the same applies and I have no reason to complain about off leash dogs.




(**want - I practice loose leash walking and proofing not because my dog is DA but because I want to practice and proof around different distractions, different areas)...



KaiserandStella said:


> Yeah, I thought I had seen it all till that happened. That Rottweiler was on a mission. Didn't care that it was chained to the truck. After he was dragged and broke free he came charging at me full force. I put my dog behind me and was ready to defend him. The Rottweiler lunged towards my face but ended up air snapping near my arm didn't bite. He lost nerve and backed up, paced and then tried to get at my dog from behind. I turned to face him at every angle that he tried. Just when it seemed he was giving up the guy in the truck finally came up and got him. No harm done but if it was someone else with an aggressive dog that Rotty had gone after it would have been a nasty brawl.
> 
> Every incident I've had my dog was on leash. I always follow the leash law myself though I understand why some people bend the leash law. It's a risk to go where there may be off-leash dogs running up but there is also a risk anywhere else too. I'm not going to let that deter me personally. Any dog coming up will have to go through me to get to my dog and he is fine with that. I understand it is very frustrating for leash abiding folks with hard to handle and dog-aggressive dogs but *there is always the option to go other places with no off-leash dogs rather than deprive your dog* of any outdoor walk/activity at least until you can work through issues and have a better ability to keep dogs at bay while maintaining your own dog calm and under control. Then it won't ruin your day to have to deal with other peoples dogs running loose. It isn't going to change any time soon. Plus, there is always freak accidents like what I dealt with the Rottweiler.


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## misslesleedavis1

I am an off leash fan. I dont frequent popular dog areas, I gotta say though its getting more and more difficult to find a quiet forest to walk thru without running into people. They are everywhere and it does not seem to matter if I drive 1 hour to a secluded spot I always run into someone, I am getting more creative though with my spots! When I do see people I leash the dogs its just a pita, I cant help but think "holy crap, why did I have to run into a person" 

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## Chip18

When I lived in the city I would go to business office complexes on the weekend to let my dogs run. Technically illegal, if I ever got reported I deal with it.

I leash my dogs on walks around my neighborhood. I didn't in the pass because my dogs are under my control. We have leash laws out here but nobody cares.

But I stopped doing it because someone on here, not directed at me, mentioned that because I know my dogs are under control someone else might not. That seemed reasonable to me, I don't want to scare the crap out of anyone.

But I've never reported anyone for violating a leash law either. I pretty much don't care what other people do. My dogs are my only concern a loose dog gets in my face then I deal with it!

A cell phone and a lawyer aren't of much use if your dog is under attack!

Just saying!


----------



## Chip18

KaiserandStella said:


> This is exactly what I was thinking. Those people with off-leash dogs in parks are probably not going to stop doing that any time soon. You can't control what other people do but you can your own actions and that of your dogs. Why not just walk Loki in areas where there are little to no dogs off-leash until you have more control over your own dog? I've encountered countless dogs busting out of their yards/garages and people walking their dogs off-leash. I even had a rottweiler come at me and my dog that jumped off the back of a moving truck. This dog was chained and got dragged a few feet before breaking loose. If my dog was seriously aggressive towards other dogs and I couldn't handle him these situations would have been pretty bad but my dog is calm, unafraid, and looking for direction on what to do when these things happen. I don't worry at all about other people and their off-leash dogs. No panic if I see strays or off-leash dogs coming towards us because I've been there done that and I know that I can handle the situation and protect my dog.





KaiserandStella said:


> Yeah, I thought I had seen it all till that happened. That Rottweiler was on a mission. Didn't care that it was chained to the truck. After he was dragged and broke free he came charging at me full force. I put my dog behind me and was ready to defend him. The Rottweiler lunged towards my face but ended up air snapping near my arm didn't bite. He lost nerve and backed up, paced and then tried to get at my dog from behind. I turned to face him at every angle that he tried. Just when it seemed he was giving up the guy in the truck finally came up and got him. No harm done but if it was someone else with an aggressive dog that Rotty had gone after it would have been a nasty brawl.
> 
> Every incident I've had my dog was on leash. I always follow the leash law myself though I understand why some people bend the leash law. It's a risk to go where there may be off-leash dogs running up but there is also a risk anywhere else too. I'm not going to let that deter me personally. Any dog coming up will have to go through me to get to my dog and he is fine with that. I understand it is very frustrating for leash abiding folks with hard to handle and dog-aggressive dogs but there is always the option to go other places with no off-leash dogs rather than deprive your dog of any outdoor walk/activity at least until you can work through issues and have a better ability to keep dogs at bay while maintaining your own dog calm and under control. Then it won't ruin your day to have to deal with other peoples dogs running loose. It isn't going to change any time soon. Plus, there is always freak accidents like what I dealt with the Rottweiler.


You should post this in the thread I linked. That's a new one to me!


----------



## boomer11

i have the same mindset. i dont care if a sign blatantly says to leash your dog. i let my dog run off leash and if i get a ticket then i'll happily pay it because i broke the law. but in all my years of owning dogs i've never gotten as much as a warning and i've dealt with cops and game wardens. 

if an unleashed/or dragging its leash dog runs up to you and the owner cant call it off then you have every right to kick the dog, call the cops, and then call president obama himself to complain. i've gotten mad at dogs in the past on hiking trails that drag their leash and the owner cant call it off (hiking while holding a leash is no fun). no one likes a dog that the owner cant control. 

if i was a cop and an unleashed dog ran up on me and the owner was running behind it trying to call it back i'd give a ticket right away. if that dog seems under voice control of the owner i wouldnt give a ticket.


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## Saphire

selzer said:


> People who have friendly dogs, just do not see the need. They figure if your dog is not friendly, than it shouldn't be out and about. Or they just don't think at all. It is frustrating. I don't have an answer for it. You can call animal control or the park ranger or the police, but they don't seem to care unless there are injuries.


BINGO!!

My last GSD was dog aggressive. Loose dogs on walks were huge issues and like above, people would tell me my leashed dog was out of control. By the time he turned about 5 years old I could have him sit stay if a leashed dog walked by. I became bitter and started telling people their loose dog is going to be killed by my dog if it got to close. In the end I always prevented fighting and him harming a dog.


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## Jax08

People are blind to their dogs and their behavior. At the vet, Jax has a pulled groin muscle. As I walked thru the door between the exam rooms and the waiting area, a fat off leash pug aggressively charges my dog aggressive Jax. They are lucky I saw it coming, lucky I blocked her and lucky I've spent so much time working on obedience. As my dog aggressive dog quietly sat next to me, the woman tells me her dog is NOT aggressive. Yeaha...sure looked like it from where I was standing and oh by the way, mine is. "Oh, she says, I can tell that by where you are standing" Whattt?????

At a different vet, Chaos laying on the floor with a severely broken leg, when an off leash Chihuahua comes thru the door and right into her face as the owner adoringly watches her with a smile on her face. Hey! GET YOUR DOG. I wasn't even polite about it. Could hear her in the next room over cooing at the dog. DH saw the dog pee all over the waiting room floor and the woman just walked away baby talking it.

People are blind to their dogs.


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## misslesleedavis1

All these happenings make me happy we drive the extra 50 minutes on weekends to get away (or try) from the crowds, they are opening up a dog park by me..I wonder how that will turn out, on weekdays I walk my crowd on leash, I have encountered a few off leash pups zooming around on was super friendly one not at all. 

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## Chip18

I always had Dominant Male dogs so I never gave dog parks a second though... my moto just say "NO". Dominant dogs will find each other! 

I now realize my Female Boxer was actually a real dog park dog, She was balanced, I still couldn't do dog parks, if a strange dog would have rolled her??? I'd have lost it! 

Some dogs and their owners are not dog people!


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## Gwenhwyfair

This, in spades!




Jax08 said:


> People are blind to their dogs and their behavior. At the vet, Jax has a pulled groin muscle. As I walked thru the door between the exam rooms and the waiting area, a fat off leash pug aggressively charges my dog aggressive Jax. They are lucky I saw it coming, lucky I blocked her and lucky I've spent so much time working on obedience. As my dog aggressive dog quietly sat next to me, the woman tells me her dog is NOT aggressive. Yeaha...sure looked like it from where I was standing and oh by the way, mine is. "Oh, she says, I can tell that by where you are standing" Whattt?????
> 
> At a different vet, Chaos laying on the floor with a severely broken leg, when an off leash Chihuahua comes thru the door and right into her face as the owner adoringly watches her with a smile on her face. Hey! GET YOUR DOG. I wasn't even polite about it. Could hear her in the next room over cooing at the dog. DH saw the dog pee all over the waiting room floor and the woman just walked away baby talking it.
> 
> People are blind to their dogs.


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## Gwenhwyfair

People who think they are above the law are a 'pet' peeve of mine.

Ask any LEO what he thinks of someone who gets busted, clearly speeding or breaking a traffic law, what he thinks of that attitude too.

People do the same thing "well I was in a hurry, late for work" blah blah blah. Then they get angry at the cop because he is enforcing the law they decided they could go ahead and break.

What they don't think about and people who let their dogs off leash a LOT of whom are blind to their dogs is they are choosing not only to endanger their dogs but those around them as well.

Same with aggressive drivers. I mean it's one thing if the reckless actions of others did not impact others, but they do and that's why there are ordinances and laws for public safety.

IMO it's very selfish when people *intentionally* blow of laws like leash laws. I mean we all make mistakes or don't know the specific boundaries but when you do it willfully and knowingly then you're in essence saying you're better and more worthy then the rest of the slobs who follow the rules.



Just saying.


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## Chip18

Gwenhwyfair said:


> People who think they are above the law are a 'pet' peeve of mine.
> 
> Ask any LEO what he thinks of someone who gets busted, clearly speeding or breaking a traffic law, what he thinks of that attitude too.
> 
> People do the same thing "well I was in a hurry, late for work" blah blah blah. Then they get angry at the cop because he is enforcing the law they decided they could go ahead and break.
> 
> What they don't think about and people who let their dogs off leash a LOT of whom are blind to their dogs is they are choosing not only to endanger their dogs but those around them as well.
> 
> Same with aggressive drivers. I mean it's one thing if the reckless actions of others did not impact others, but they do and that's why there are ordinances and laws for public safety.
> 
> IMO it's very selfish when people *intentionally* blow of laws like leash laws. I mean we all make mistakes or don't know the specific boundaries but when you do it willfully and knowingly then you're in essence saying you're better and more worthy then the rest of the slobs who follow the rules.
> 
> 
> 
> Just saying.


LOL, well if you it makes you feel better... The LEO's around here know me by name! It's been awhile now (knock on wood and thank you V1 ) But if I get pulled over for speeding, I don't give the officer any grief, I know the rule I broke them, I got caught. 

I don't give officer's a hard time, they ask me why....sometimes I get off, sometimes I don't, most of the time if I do get a ticket, they give me a break on the citing speed.

I just don't care what other folks do. I myself am just narrowly focused on my dogs...that's all I care about when they are with me.

People will do what people will do, some take it to far, that's why we have prisons. Short of that you can drive yourself nuts worrying about other folks. 

Not really sure where this thread is going anymore but yeah.


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## selzer

LOL! Yeah, I had a cop run up and past me while I was walking Babsy OFF-Lead in town, where there is a state-wide leash law in Ohio. 

Babs was heeling, I heard running feet, and took a hold of her collar. The officer ran by us, and I mean close. He came back about 20 minutes later, and apologized to me for scaring my dog (which he didn't). 

It is not about blowing off the law. It is about training a dog to the point where you can walk your dog totally under control without a leash and using that training. You have to be reasonable though. Do you do that in the middle of a street-fair? No. Do you do it when there are likely to be a lot of people out and about, walking dogs, little kids? No. If you see other people, for their peace of mind, clip the lead on. 

But if we aren't going to use off lead training, why do it? And, how do you practice it?


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## misslesleedavis1

@selzer,
I find a empty forest tucked away and I let the dogs go have fun with each other, they go so fast and chase each other, they play fetch, its nice. 

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## middleofnowhere

I think I've ranted here on the crap that went on in my neighborhood in Arkansas. One woman called me old and ugly when I got on her case about REPEATEDLY letting her dog loose. I really wanted to know what my age and appearance had to do with her being irresponsible with her dog. Never got an answer to that. She WAS awful about her dog(s). I repeatedly called animal control on one neighbor. She finally got better about it. I don't get why people still think this is OK. Let your dog out at night to crap in other people's lawns????? To bug other people who are walking their dogs???? OK I'm going to shut up now. I think we all know what a pain it is to try to walk your dog on lead when loose dogs roam around.


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## Chip18

middleofnowhere said:


> I think I've ranted here on the crap that went on in my neighborhood in Arkansas. One woman called me old and ugly when I got on her case about REPEATEDLY letting her dog loose. I really wanted to know what my age and appearance had to do with her being irresponsible with her dog. Never got an answer to that. She WAS awful about her dog(s). I repeatedly called animal control on one neighbor. She finally got better about it. I don't get why people still think this is OK. Let your dog out at night to crap in other people's lawns????? To bug other people who are walking their dogs???? OK I'm going to shut up now. I think we all know what a pain it is to try to walk your dog on lead when loose dogs roam around.


Your not out of line but you have to understand that by and large the people on here are the one's that give a crap about how there dogs behave.

In my neighborhood if I take my dogs out off leash it's at 10:00 pm or later, if they crap on a lawn, I have a plastic baggie and I pick it up. That's what responsible people do.

If I saw a neighbor that had manstopper dogs running around out of control, then yeah I'd be bugging A/C to do something! 

Anytime you take your dogs out for a walk there is always a risk they could encounter a loose dog. You deal with it, life's to short to worry about what others are doing on a daily basis, If there actions cause our paths to cross in a bad way...yeah that's gonna be a problem!


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## KaiserandStella

Chip18 said:


> You should post this in the thread I linked. That's a new one to me!


I have a lot of stories to tell like that. I'll get around to posting about them when I have more time.

I wouldn't call A/C on anyone breaking the leash law with dogs off-leash not causing harm/minding their own business. Dogs that have busted out I try to help get them back to their owners and I would try to save the ones barking or harassing people too. The only time I would call A/C is if there were extremely aggressive dogs at large going on a mauling rampage that I and others in my neighborhood could not help stop.


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## angelas

Ok, so let's remove our own dogs from this walking scenario. You're walking in your neighborhood with a small child or maybe an elder and a strange off leash dog run up to you. Maybe it's acting aggressively, maybe it's large enough to knock you or your companion over. Should you have to find someplace else to walk because some irresponsible dog owners think that the status quo should over rule the written law?

BTW, I'm a witch with bylaw enforcement on speed dial.


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## boomer11

any dog that the owner cant control and is unleashed should be punished to the full extent of the law if you so choose. isnt that a given???

i thought the issue was with well trained unleashed dogs? if you were walking with your child and i come with my 90 lb shepherd heeling nicely by my side you would call animal control? if you would i'd like to say you are in the minority because i've been in that situation many times (once i was even jogging behind a man who was jogging while pushing a baby stroller) and i have yet to have cops/animal control called on me.


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## angelas

Bridget said:


> Husband and I have gotten so frustrated in the past about people, especially in parks, having their dogs off leash when the dog is not well trained to stay with the owner. No problem if the dog is truly voice trained, but most dogs are not.


These are the first two sentences of the original post so I think the issue is poorly trained or untrained dogs.

And even if I would call, I have no problem being in the minority. Just look at all the fun stuff the AR wackadoodles have managed to pull off and they are a vocal minority.


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## KaiserandStella

angelas said:


> Ok, so let's remove our own dogs from this walking scenario. You're walking in your neighborhood with a small child or maybe an elder and a strange off leash dog run up to you. Maybe it's acting aggressively, maybe it's large enough to knock you or your companion over. Should you have to find someplace else to walk because some irresponsible dog owners think that the status quo should over rule the written law?
> 
> BTW, I'm a witch with bylaw enforcement on speed dial.


I don't think you should have to find someplace else to walk. You have every right to enjoy a peaceful stroll down the street. Walking with an aggressive/dangerous dog yourself is different from just walking down the street minding your own business with or without a friendly dog. If I'm walking down the street with a child/elder/friendly dog and I encounter a large-friendly-exciteable dog if I could, I would find where the dog came from, return their dog and talk to them about it (their dog could get hit by a car, shot, stolen etc) I would not call A/C on the dog/owner. As for an aggressive dog, I've had to deal with many in varying levels of aggression. What I did with a seriously aggressive dog was protect my family members with me, subdue the dog (tie it to a pole/tree) then call A/C. I have a lot of mercy for dogs even if they are aggressive. I would try to save them if I could and would not be as forceful/violent on them as I would a dangerous person assaulting me or my family.


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## Harry and Lola

It is very disappointing that some GSD owners will do what they like when it comes to on-leash laws in pubic areas. 

I can only assume the USA has similar issues as we do here in Australia - meaning there are plenty of dog people that hate German Shepherds, there are so many people with strong views on the breed, views such as fear and dislike. I believe many peoples dislike of our breed stem from the fact there are many GSDs in the community and has been a popular family dog since the 60's and 70's, a time when GSDs were call Alsatian's, when dogs ran lose all over the neighbourhood and a time when GSDs were not bred very well due to a ban on importing prime stock from Germany (which was lifted in Australia in 1973), so our GSDs were interbred extensively with not so good temperaments and form. These same people probably owned an 'Alsation' when they were younger and did not have a good experience with their family dog, or perhaps in a 'dog park' scenario, a GSD attached their other breed dog? 

No matter the reason, there are people that are frightened of German Shepherds and it is so important for GSD owners to portray a good image and be a good role model - be an ambassador of the breed. 

For many many people walking through a park or on hiking trials or in the street, just minding their own business walking their dog, to see an off leash GSD would be scary and they may feel as though they can't continue all because an arrogant GSD owner chooses to blatantly disregard the law and allow their GSD to heel or wander off lead.

I don't care how well trained a GSD is, they can and do lose focus and it takes just seconds for him to be off and lunge at an another dog or person walking by. I have personally seen a UDX and TDX titled GSD go from a relaxed sitting position next to owner to an aggressive lunge at another dog (Ridgeback) where he made contact. This was totally out of character for the titled GSD and the owner was mortified. We were all very shocked and it just proved to all of us (many of these people that witnessed this were seasoned and experienced handlers) that no matter the training, any dog can lose it.

Aside from 'being a good ambassador' for our breed, what about obeying the law, I'm sure Police have a enough to do without having to put resources into people not following the leash laws.


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## Chip18

KaiserandStella said:


> I have a lot of stories to tell like that. I'll get around to posting about them when I have more time.
> 
> I wouldn't call A/C on anyone breaking the leash law with dogs off-leash not causing harm/minding their own business. Dogs that have busted out I try to help get them back to their owners and I would try to save the ones barking or harassing people too. The only time I would call A/C is if there were extremely aggressive dogs at large going on a mauling rampage that I and others in my neighborhood could not help stop.


Yep pretty much on the dogs and are you kidding me on the other part??


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## Chip18

angelas said:


> Ok, so let's remove our own dogs from this walking scenario. You're walking in your neighborhood with a small child or maybe an elder and a strange off leash dog run up to you. Maybe it's acting aggressively, maybe it's large enough to knock you or your companion over. Should you have to find someplace else to walk because some irresponsible dog owners think that the status quo should over rule the written law?


Depends on the circumstances, we do have and will help dogs in need.
My wife picked up a Great Pyrenees walking down the side of the road. Stopped the car opened the door and he hopped in. He had a tag she drove to the owners home knocked on the door and asked if they had a dog.

They said yes...he was upstairs recovering from hip replacement surgery! My wife asked if he looked like this and showed him the dog. They were like!!! 

I guess the hip replacement went ok..needless to say he had just gone through and open door and went for a walk. 

I rescued a Shiba Inu , JRT and a Lhasa Apso passing my front yard as a pack, heading for the HWY! I was hoping I could save at least one, I called one he came to me and so did the other two!!

They had tags, we called the number,little boy thought they were in the back yard. They had traveled a mile and a half from home! All safely returned. Oh and the Lhasa Apso was pretty cool, I played with him and my other dogs were having a play date with the JRT and the Shiba in the back yard. 

Having a dog that is not an A hole can have hidden benefits!




angelas said:


> BTW, I'm a witch with bylaw enforcement on speed dial.


LOL


----------



## Midnight12

I really hate here in Denver, where we have so many loose dogs running around. You can not enjoy a walk without some dog coming after you. Sometimes, without an owner in sight.. Had one dog charge my 4 year old grandson, while walking my gsd. Had a hard time getting that one under control. In Fort Collins, they are going to have two animal control officers walking parks and streets, whose only job is to give people tickets for off leash dogs. I hope more places follow suit. Too many people say they have their dog under control, till you come walking by with your on leash dog.


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## Harry and Lola

Midnight12 said:


> Too many people say they have their dog under control, till you come walking by with your on leash dog.


So true, especially for a breed with such a high prey drive like GSDs


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## KaiserandStella

Gwenhwyfair said:


> In blue.
> 
> No. NO. and NO.
> 
> That's unsupportable reasoning.
> 
> On the one had you're saying, in principle, it's o.k. for people to let dogs off leash everywhere, even if it's posted as an on leash area.
> 
> Then on the other hand you tell people who need or WANT** to find a place where there will absolutely not be people thinking it's o.k. to let their dogs off leash?
> 
> You can't have it both ways.
> 
> That's the problem, if people think they can blow off leash laws they're going to blow them off everywhere and those who need or want on leash exercise are basically told they have to yield to the law breakers?? That greatly limits where they can go.
> 
> Really, MOST of these areas are set up and ordinances created at the LOCAL level. If folks want more off leash areas they should invest some time in attending local/county meetings and petition their elected officials to designate off leash areas officially. Not expect everyone to yield to them and their off leash dog as to when they feel the law should or should not be obeyed.
> 
> It's about reasonable expectations. If I go to an area officially designated as on leash I have every reason to expect others will respect the laws AND the fellow dog owners. If I go to an off leash area the same applies and I have no reason to complain about off leash dogs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (**want - I practice loose leash walking and proofing not because my dog is DA but because I want to practice and proof around different distractions, different areas)...


Forgot to reply to this. The OP stated "So, Loki doesn't get walks because other people don't control their dogs." So why not just walk the dog where there are no off-leash dogs UNTIL they can handle their dog in areas where there are off-leash dogs? Should they have to deal with this? No, but Is it better not to walk the dog at all? I don't break the leash law myself and I never said that I think it's okay for people to break the leash-law at the expense of others. However, I just don't think this is a black and white sort of issue. I understand why some people with well behaved dogs break the leash-law to train or enjoy a recreational activity with their dog. They are minding their business and not hurting anyone. Should they go somewhere where there are no on-leash dogs to train/do recreational activities off-leash instead of breaking the leash-law? Yes they should. Am I going to report them? No. Sorry if my point of view is confusing.


----------



## martemchik

I think this thread is funny because people are just coming up with "what if" scenarios and on upping each other each time someone says they would or wouldn't report a dog/owner.

The whole, "well if you were in this situation, what would you do thing" is quite funny.

I agree with most of the posters that have written out a situation and said I'd do this or that depending on what exactly happened in the situation. I would definitely report a dog or owner if it was off leash/aggressive and on a regular walk around my neighborhood on a continuous basis. But what I find funny is that some people would report dogs that aren't even close to bothering them. A dog...hundreds of yards away, that hasn't even looked at their dog and is just enjoying the park with their owner, they'd call AC or the police. It's funny to me because its such an "American" reaction. People here love the law, they love seeing others get in trouble, and they tend to think that a ticket from a police man will teach someone a lesson much faster than just talking with them about the issue. But sometimes, the issue really isn't an issue...as IMO it wouldn't be if a dog was off leash and never even batted an eye lash towards my dog.

And as a side comment...that TDX or UDX dog that reacted for the first time to a dog walking by...I just don't believe those types of stories. Dogs never react for the first time. There are always signs, owners see these signs, and many times choose to ignore them. Especially when they believe they have such spectacular specimens of the breed...they tend to over look issues. It's kind of like when I was talking to a lady who was telling me how great and peaceful her GSD is, that he never starts any fights and has no problems going to day care...as I was watching him posture and try to mount my male...


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## Blanketback

I like walking my dog off leash. It doesn't have anything to do with flaunting the law (although I suppose I am) it's because this is the kind of dog I want. To me, it's a reflection of the training, and also a reflection of the relationship. I do use common sense, and most people wouldn't guess that my dog is off-leash.

I look at the leash laws the same way I look at the jaywalking laws. I do jaywalk all the time, oops. But nothing compared to jaywalking in NYC! I won't risk my or my dog's life, lol.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Agree that's it's not only black and white. If you're out on some vacant field trespassing and let your dog run, then you get busted for trespassing it's just you and your dog. Knock yourself out.

If you're in a designated on leash dog walking area where you can reasonably expect others to be there with on leash dogs then the chances your actions will impact others increases greatly. 

It's the law and it's also being courteous to others.

Primarily what I object to, strongly, is the notion that people obeying the law with leashed dogs should 'go somewhere' else if they don't want to be around off leash dogs.

That's ridiculous and defeats the whole purpose of designated on leash and off leash areas.


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## Gwenhwyfair

A reflection of training is very subjective though. 

Most dogs aren't even trained for loose leash walking let alone off leash heeling.

Since we know that, as Jax so well put it, a good many people are blind to their dogs, the only objective way to cope with that are laws about on leash areas.

Most public dog parks the off leash area is 'at your own risk', for a reason.

Btw somewhat related is something Mrs K brought up a while back. In Germany people are far more free to go places with their dogs. The reason for that is the licensing and testing required for dog owners. We don't have that because in the U.S. People want the freedom without the responsibility, so restrictions are placed on all of us when in fact there is less freedom for people, even for those who do have well trained dogs.




Blanketback said:


> I like walking my dog off leash. It doesn't have anything to do with flaunting the law (although I suppose I am) it's because this is the kind of dog I want. To me, it's a reflection of the training, and also a reflection of the relationship. I do use common sense, and most people wouldn't guess that my dog is off-leash.
> 
> I look at the leash laws the same way I look at the jaywalking laws. I do jaywalk all the time, oops. But nothing compared to jaywalking in NYC! I won't risk my or my dog's life, lol.


----------



## boomer11

Gwenhwyfair said:


> If you're in a designated on leash dog walking area where you can reasonably expect others to be there with on leash dogs then the chances your actions will impact others increases greatly.


Impact people how? I understand what you're saying but if your dog is going to pull towards my dog he's going to do it whether my dog is on leash or not. If he's going to pull towards a ball he's going to do it whether my dog is on a long line or not. Btw if a dog is ball crazy it shouldn't be brought to any park until trained because there are many types of balls. So Imo if people can't control their dog then train it instead of trying to get rid of well trained dogs just because it's a distraction to your dog.


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## Blanketback

You'd think it would go without saying that if your dog is being walked off leash, it's because the dog doesn't need a leash, lol.


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## Gwenhwyfair

P.s. K&S your point of view wasn't confusing, it was contradictory.


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## Gwenhwyfair

I'm glad you understand what I am saying. People who choose to take their on leash dog to on leash areas do not have to defend their actions. They are within their rights and obeying the law. As it stands in the US for the most part, there are no laws pertaining minimum standards of training.** Therefore the rest of what you write doesn't pertain.....


**though I think it would be a good thing if we did do that and private dogs parks do enforce certain standards of behaviors and training. See my earlier reference to mrs K a former member .... 




boomer11 said:


> Impact people how? I understand what you're saying but if your dog is going to pull towards my dog he's going to do it whether my dog is on leash or not. If he's going to pull towards a ball he's going to do it whether my dog is on a long line or not. Btw if a dog is ball crazy it shouldn't be brought to any park until trained because there are many types of balls. So Imo if people can't control their dog then train it instead of trying to get rid of well trained dogs just because it's a distraction to your dog.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Eh that's my recent indoctrination into more technical OB, off lead heeling is a position, like sit or down is and it's not flexible, walking a dog off leash can mean a dog ranging around within 10, 15, or more feet of the owner. 

My neighbor runs with her dog off leash. It'll be beside her, range off of the sidewalk into the yards a good 15 feet, she'll correct, dog comes back, repeat, next yard and next. She thinks of that as good off leash walking.



Blanketback said:


> You'd think it would go without saying that if your dog is being walked off leash, it's because the dog doesn't need a leash, lol.


----------



## Blanketback

I like about 3' between me and my dog, on a purposeful walk. I need my personal space, lol. I'm not a fan of other dogs roaming onto my property so I don't allow my dog to do it to others' lawns either. A simple rule to live by, lol.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Yup, but the problem is a lot of people are comfortable with far greater distances that aren't appropriate for a more urban busy park type area. 

Ranging from the owner like that is fine in a hunting dog out in a field, but in this case it indicates the owner really doesn't have a dog trained to heel safely off leash in higher traffic situations. 

Actually in fairness given most dogs have no off leash manners at all her dog is pretty good and yours is very good.  



Blanketback said:


> I like about 3' between me and my dog, on a purposeful walk. I need my personal space, lol. I'm not a fan of other dogs roaming onto my property so I don't allow my dog to do it to others' lawns either. A simple rule to live by, lol.


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## Blanketback

It does drive me batty when my dog is right at my side, minding his own business, and some busybody will go out of their way to tell me that my dog_ must_ be leashed. I think there should be a law against unsolicited direction, lmao.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Btw The purpose or foundation of the BH in SchutzHund was a 'traffic' test. It was given to prove the dog was safe and obedient around pedestrians, bicycles, vehicles and such. 

Since a good many people aren't willing to put even a tenth of the training it takes to pass a BH test we have instead created leash laws.

If I had my way we would have tests similiar to a BH where when the owner and dog passes the test they would earn a special license to allow their dog to go more public places and be off lead. The dog would need to be recertified periodically.

People who do not want to bother with training must have their dog on leash at all times and not have the same level of access to public places.

This way instead of restricting those with well trained dogs we reward and incentivize people to train their dogs....but I doubt that will ever fly in the US.


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## Gwenhwyfair

I don't have that problem because I follow the laws.... Having said that see above. 



Blanketback said:


> It does drive me batty when my dog is right at my side, minding his own business, and some busybody will go out of their way to tell me that my dog_ must_ be leashed. I think there should be a law against unsolicited direction, lmao.


----------



## Blanketback

Your idea is wonderful, Gwen - I'd gladly pay a licensing fee for that privilege. 

We do have a tiny bit of that going on now, with restaurants that allow dogs near or on the patios, but that's as close as it gets. I wouldn't put my dog in that position if he acted like a maniac, lol.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Thanks. 

If you think about it, whether it's BSL or leash laws or liability issues it mostly boils down to untrained, untested dogs. We all end up paying for that monetarily and in a lack of freedom with dogs in general.

The problem is, IMO, we have such a strong cultural undercurrent of people who want all the freedoms but none of the responsibility= work/effort that we get stuck with more restrictions.




Blanketback said:


> Your idea is wonderful, Gwen - I'd gladly pay a licensing fee for that privilege.
> 
> We do have a tiny bit of that going on now, with restaurants that allow dogs near or on the patios, but that's as close as it gets. I wouldn't put my dog in that position if he acted like a maniac, lol.


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## Blanketback

These problems aren't specific to dogs either.


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## middleofnowhere

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Btw The purpose or foundation of the BH in SchutzHund was a 'traffic' test. It was given to prove the dog was safe and obedient around pedestrians, bicycles, vehicles and such.
> 
> Since a good many people aren't willing to put even a tenth of the training it takes to pass a BH test we have instead created leash laws.
> 
> If I had my way we would have tests similiar to a BH where when the owner and dog passes the test they would earn a special license to allow their dog to go more public places and be off lead. The dog would need to be recertified periodically.
> 
> People who do not want to bother with training must have their dog on leash at all times and not have the same level of access to public places.
> 
> This way instead of restricting those with well trained dogs we reward and incentivize people to train their dogs....but I doubt that will ever fly in the US.


The off lead section of the BH is on a field with ONE other dog in a long down, quite a ways away from the active dog. The traffic portion of the BH is done on lead.

Using BH as a criteria for off-lead dogs might be better than nothing but it still wouldn't be ideal. Basically, in a city neighborhood or on a city street do not let your dog loose. If the dog law says your animals need to be either restrained or behind a fence on your property -- just do it. If I'm walking my dogs on lead and encouraging them to ignore other dogs, it is unfair to have your boisterous dog running around loose or running up to us. 


Re calling AC - 
The people that I call AC on are the habitual offenders. In Arkansas it was like 360 days out of 365. Believe me these people were not following their pooches around with poop bags. In Wyoming, they got three chances before I called AC or else looked up who owned the property and called them. These were dogs that would leave their yard to harrass my on lead dogs. People were pretty good about it in WY. There was the one man who just didn't pay me any mind when his two went over his low front fence & accosted my two leashed dogs. I was delighted when just after one incident a sheriff's deputy was driving past. I pointed out the problem, the dogs were still out of the yard. Amazing how that never happened again. Really that's an incident I will cherish. Still makes me grin.


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## Blanketback

I've only called AC over loose dogs once, and it was because the new GF was letting the BF's dogs out as soon as he left for work every day: she didn't like them and she wanted them gone. I'd have rather gone over myself but vigilante justice is frowned upon.


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## Chip18

Blanketback said:


> it was because the new GF was letting the BF's dogs out as soon as he left for work every day: she didn't like them and she wanted them gone


 New GF time!!!


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## Blanketback

Yeah, no kidding! Nobody can be *that* desperate!


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## Gwenhwyfair

Yes, I am aware of that. That's why I used the word 'similar' in my post.

Secondly the test devised would need to consider real world situations as much as possible but not to either extreme so as to make it too onerous nor too easy.

The CGC is another example of a good starting place.





middleofnowhere said:


> The off lead section of the BH is on a field with ONE other dog in a long down, quite a ways away from the active dog. The traffic portion of the BH is done on lead.
> 
> Using BH as a criteria for off-lead dogs might be better than nothing but it still wouldn't be ideal. Basically, in a city neighborhood or on a city street do not let your dog loose. If the dog law says your animals need to be either restrained or behind a fence on your property -- just do it. If I'm walking my dogs on lead and encouraging them to ignore other dogs, it is unfair to have your boisterous dog running around loose or running up to <snipped>


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## boomer11

instead of worrying about things you cant control like trained/untrained off leash dogs, people should concentrate on things that they can like themselves and their dog. 

train yourself and your dog how to act when you encounter another dog because no matter where you live you will eventually run into an off leash/stray dog.


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## Harry and Lola

Seems to me everyone here is missing an important point.

Regardless if you choose to ignore the on lead law and walk your dog off lead because you are confident of yours and your dogs abilities or if you choose to follow the law and walk your dog on lead (loose or otherwise) even though you would also like the opportunity of allowing your dog off lead ------ what about people that are afraid of German Shepherds and do not recognise a stable well trained GSD that will not bother them, all they see is an off lead GSD and this impacts on their use of on lead public areas.

To me people walking their dog off lead in on lead areas are arrogant and do not consider other people. Especially people with powerful breeds with high prey drives like the GSD. 

Have some consideration for the novice owner of a little dog that is trying to exercise their dog and give their dog good experiences. 

It is not always about you as an individual.


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## Harry and Lola

martemchik said:


> And as a side comment...that TDX or UDX dog that reacted for the first time to a dog walking by...I just don't believe those types of stories. Dogs never react for the first time. There are always signs, owners see these signs, and many times choose to ignore them. Especially when they believe they have such spectacular specimens of the breed...they tend to over look issues.


I have to disagree with you here, dogs can and do act out of character or 'for the first time' in terms of aggression when they are are ill. 

Medical issues change a dog, I can attest to this with Harry developing fear aggression which I attribute to not being diagnosed with EPI quick enough.

Perhaps this titled GSD had a headache! or perhaps he had something far more serious going on that was yet to be diagnosed.


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## LoveSea

I totally avoid the street next to mine on walks with my dogs because there are 3 dogs that run loose & right up to my (always leashed on walks) dogs. It gets my dogs very riled up & the owners have no control over these dogs. They see us coming & run into the street - the owners always yelling for them & the dogs are ignoring them. I mean - they can get hit by cars! 

Yesterday I was walking my dogs & a tiny maltese ran from it's yard across the street & almost into my GSD's mouth! The owner was chasing it & it was not listening & kept running towards us. The owner yelled "are they friendly?" & I said "No!!". I turned us around & got a hold of my dogs - just had them avoid eye contact, etc. Luckily she was able to scoop her dogs up, but it was upsetting. Back to the muzzle. My GSD bit someone & I really have to be careful. He was on leash at the time, always is.


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## Chip18

Harry and Lola said:


> Seems to me everyone here is missing an important point.
> 
> Regardless if you choose to ignore the on lead law and walk your dog off lead because you are confident of yours and your dogs abilities or if you choose to follow the law and walk your dog on lead (loose or otherwise) even though you would also like the opportunity of allowing your dog off lead ------ what about people that are afraid of German Shepherds and do not recognise a stable well trained GSD that will not bother them, all they see is an off lead GSD and this impacts on their use of on lead public areas.
> 
> To me people walking their dog off lead in on lead areas are arrogant and do not consider other people. Especially people with powerful breeds with high prey drives like the GSD.
> 
> Have some consideration for the novice owner of a little dog that is trying to exercise their dog and give their dog good experiences.
> 
> It is not always about you as an individual.


Pretty sure I stated that I do leash my dog if I walk him during daylight hours in my neighborhood even though he is off leash trained..so as not to scare the crap out of people! A poster mentioned it and it makes sense. 

I have no problem with that out here we are lucky and off leash out of control animals are usually not a problem...course I did have my encounter with them!


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## Chip18

Harry and Lola said:


> Have some consideration for the novice owner of a little dog that is trying to exercise their dog and give their dog good experiences.
> 
> It is not always about you as an individual.


If that "little dog" novice encounters me, what he will learn is that some "people" are A holes!

A loose dogs has no idea if my dogs are friendly or not! They never get close enough to find out! My dogs are my only concern!

You make it clear to "people" that you will kick beat or stomp the crap out of there out of control animal and you usually don't have another encounter! 

Just saying.


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## Chip18

LoveSea said:


> I totally avoid the street next to mine on walks with my dogs because there are 3 dogs that run loose & right up to my (always leashed on walks) dogs. It gets my dogs very riled up & the owners have no control over these dogs. They see us coming & run into the street - the owners always yelling for them & the dogs are ignoring them. I mean - they can get hit by cars!
> 
> Yesterday I was walking my dogs & a tiny maltese ran from it's yard across the street & almost into my GSD's mouth! The owner was chasing it & it was not listening & kept running towards us. The owner yelled "are they friendly?" & I said "No!!". I turned us around & got a hold of my dogs - just had them avoid eye contact, etc. Luckily she was able to scoop her dogs up, but it was upsetting. Back to the muzzle. My GSD bit someone & I really have to be careful. He was on leash at the time, always is.


People biting is real real bad!
My guy gave me an early hint that he had that potential! The link is the policy the policy I followed. If I spoke to people my dog went behind me. He learned that was his spot,he learned what normal human interaction looked like.No stress he didn't have to decide friend or foe that was my job! I used a muzzle for awhile, when he got used to me stepping between me and a stranger I dropped the muzzle. I could read him, I did "NO" forced intros no people feeding him treats, just ignore, avoid and move on, he learned to view people as furniture. 

Leerburg | Who Pets Your Puppy or Dog


Start a thread of if you have questions.


----------



## LifeofRiley

Over the years, I have encountered many stray/lost dogs on walks and never saw them as threats that needed to be chased away or otherwise feared. Typically, they were looking for some dog/person to latch onto. I have re-united a lot of owners with their dogs by not freaking out about a large, unknown, dog approaching mine. 

Most recently, I had a GSD mix running across a busy street towards me and my dog. My only concern, in that moment, was that the dog was going to get hit by a car. I did not, at any time, think that the dog was a threat to me or my dog. As soon as the dog was within reach, I noticed that it didn’t have a collar, so I utilized the fact that the dog wanted to greet my dog to give me time to get the extra collar my dog had on off and put it on the greeting dog. 

All of this happened really quickly, thankfully shortly after I was able to put the collar on the dog that had almost been hit crossing a busy street (and thereby preventing it from darting back in the street), I noticed there was a person frantically trying to find out where the dog was. Apparently, it was someone dog sitting for another person and the dog had slipped the collar. 

And, all I can say is I am glad I was able to help.


----------



## boomer11

LifeofRiley said:


> Over the years, I have encountered many stray/lost dogs on walks and never saw them as threats that needed to be chased away or otherwise feared. Typically, they were looking for some dog/person to latch onto. I have re-united a lot of owners with their dogs by not freaking out about a large, unknown, dog approaching mine.


same experience here. i have yet to encounter a dog that i felt i needed to scare away. almost all the dogs i've encountered on walks are dogs that somehow got loose. they usually see another dog and just want to sniff/play. its usually the huskies that get loose. i've also experienced the 5 lb little dog running across the street yapping its little head off. i just put my dog in a sit, walked towards the little dog, picked it up and gave it back to its owner. imo if you cant put your dog in a sit and walk a few feet away from it then less walking and more training.

again everyone encounters strange dogs so its really about training yourself and your dog to deal with it. if you have a dog thats reactive an air horn or a ball on a string that you can swing would work wonders in stopping a dog in its tracks.

of course it depends on where you live. i'm sure there are some horrible neighborhoods full of bad owners/dogs.


----------



## LifeofRiley

boomer11 said:


> of course it depends on where you live. i'm sure there are some horrible neighborhoods full of bad owners/dogs.


I think this is one of my primary take-aways from this forum thus far... I used to think that dogs living in a rural, or semi-rural area were the dogs that had a better life.

But, after 3 years here on this forum, I am inclined to believe the opposite based on my reading of several threads. Dogs who are successfully living in more urban areas seem to have the traits that most people want in a dog - i.e. dogs who can go anywhere without reactivity to other dogs or people.


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## Chip18

Just gonna say.,.that those of us willing to step in front of our dog to deter a "charging" dog are most likely pretty good at detecting a strange dogs intent! Nobody is going to pepper spray Benji in the face!


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## selzer

Ohio has a leash law. But, it is not a leash law. It says that the dog must be contained to your property, OR be under the control of a person. So it is more a don't-let-your-dog-roam-unsupervised law. 

So, when some of us arrogant people are walking our dogs off-lead, because they are indeed well-trained, other people sometimes give you the stink-eye. This is not because they are terrified that your dog will eat them, but because they believe the leash law, is a leash law, and they want to tell you that you are not following the law, or they are just jealous that they could not possibly control their own dog off lead like that. 

Either way, for those of you that have a leash law, that is a leash law, dealing with the possibility of a dog WITH a person that is not connected to a leash, seems to be something that irritates you. But how do you think the rest of the country/world does it? Those places like Ohio, where you do not really have a leash law, and people may have a dog off lead, if they have it under control?

It isn't arrogant. It is training. That's all. It's like taking the training wheels off your 5-year-old's bicycle. Some five year old's still need training wheels. Should every 5-year-old be stuck with the extra set of wheels until the rest of the world catches up?

If your dog is going to run in front of a car, irritate people, or charge at other dogs, than keep the dog on lead. If the dog will not recall completely and allow you to grab the collar, than keep the dog on lead in public. Keep working, and maybe one day, you too will want to take the dog off lead and enjoy a walk without a lead. 

The answer is not to be angry with people who can manage their dogs without a lead; the answer is to get your dog to that level.


----------



## Shaolin

selzer said:


> Ohio has a leash law. But, it is not a leash law. It says that the dog must be contained to your property, OR be under the control of a person. So it is more a don't-let-your-dog-roam-unsupervised law.
> 
> So, when some of us arrogant people are walking our dogs off-lead, because they are indeed well-trained, other people sometimes give you the stink-eye. This is not because they are terrified that your dog will eat them, but because they believe the leash law, is a leash law, and they want to tell you that you are not following the law, or they are just jealous that they could not possibly control their own dog off lead like that.
> 
> Either way, for those of you that have a leash law, that is a leash law, dealing with the possibility of a dog WITH a person that is not connected to a leash, seems to be something that irritates you. But how do you think the rest of the country/world does it? Those places like Ohio, where you do not really have a leash law, and people may have a dog off lead, if they have it under control?
> 
> It isn't arrogant. It is training. That's all. It's like taking the training wheels off your 5-year-old's bicycle. Some five year old's still need training wheels. Should every 5-year-old be stuck with the extra set of wheels until the rest of the world catches up?
> 
> If your dog is going to run in front of a car, irritate people, or charge at other dogs, than keep the dog on lead. If the dog will not recall completely and allow you to grab the collar, than keep the dog on lead in public. Keep working, and maybe one day, you too will want to take the dog off lead and enjoy a walk without a lead.
> 
> The answer is not to be angry with people who can manage their dogs without a lead; the answer is to get your dog to that level.


Amen to this!


----------



## Harry and Lola

selzer said:


> So, when some of us arrogant people are walking our dogs off-lead, because they are indeed well-trained, other people sometimes give you the stink-eye. This is not because they are terrified that your dog will eat them, but because they believe the leash law, is a leash law, and they want to tell you that you are not following the law, or they are just jealous that they could not possibly control their own dog off lead like that.
> 
> Either way, for those of you that have a leash law, that is a leash law, dealing with the possibility of a dog WITH a person that is not connected to a leash, seems to be something that irritates you. But how do you think the rest of the country/world does it? Those places like Ohio, where you do not really have a leash law, and people may have a dog off lead, if they have it under control?
> 
> It isn't arrogant. It is training. That's all. It's like taking the training wheels off your 5-year-old's bicycle. Some five year old's still need training wheels. Should every 5-year-old be stuck with the extra set of wheels until the rest of the world catches up?
> 
> If your dog is going to run in front of a car, irritate people, or charge at other dogs, than keep the dog on lead. If the dog will not recall completely and allow you to grab the collar, than keep the dog on lead in public. Keep working, and maybe one day, you too will want to take the dog off lead and enjoy a walk without a lead.
> 
> The answer is not to be angry with people who can manage their dogs without a lead; the answer is to get your dog to that level.


Selzer for someone with 23,000 posts, I am really surprised at your comments here. I'm not talking about a dog off lead rushing you, if that happens, do what you have to. I'm talking about being an ambassador for the breed. 

I'm sure there are people that are jealous of a well trained dog, but I truly believe there are more people that appreciate and admire a well trained dog, I know I do. I don't believe the majority of people in this world are so fixated on other people doing the right thing that the second someone does something wrong, they are on the phone to the Police, I've never met anyone like that.

I think it is unreasonable of you to suggest every single person that owns a dog should train their dog to excellence, there are some people that for whatever reason do not choose to train their dogs, sad and annoying as that is, so yes I agree with you regarding managing your own as you can't control everyone else, however you can not say that your dog will not do what comes naturally to him and herd or go after prey, if the opportunity presents itself regardless of his training. 

There are many people who are just plain frightened of GSDs and as an owner of 2 GSDs I am aware of the power of my breed and some peoples fear of my breed. I take my role as a GSD owner seriously and try to ensure I represent myself properly. I don't want to make anyone feel as though we can't share a footpath or area because I have my dogs off lead in an on lead area. This is not about my or yours ability to manage our dogs, it is about making other people not feel concerned about seeing a dog off lead when their dog is on lead, regardless of how well trained or how well the dog is behaving - some people will be unsure.


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## DobbyDad

When people walk their dogs off leash it forces me to trust their judgement. I don't know most people I see in the street. Nor do I trust their judgement on their dog. I don't think I need a leash for my dog, but I use one because, as a stranger on the street I gave not earned your trust in my dog. I should not force that on you.


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## Sarah~

I am trying to train my DA dog... In the meantime he has to be walked like every other dog. I take him to the park where dogs must be on leash, and surprise! Most aren't. At least there are less at the park than on the streets by my house. 

I'm not worried about those dogs, I'm worried about MY dog that has no problem going for another dog's throat. He's muzzled in public but he can still growl and bark and lunge. If that dog takes offense and goes after mine he can't defend himself and I have to step in, and that puts ME at risk. And most people I see letting dogs off leash don't have nearly the same kind of control over their dogs as I see on this forum! Where am I supposed to take my dog to safely get his exercise while he's still in training if no one thinks leash laws matter? I would have to drive for an hour at least to find an unpopulated area and I can't do a 2 hour drive every day.


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## Chip18

Sarah~ said:


> I am trying to train my DA dog... In the meantime he has to be walked like every other dog. I take him to the park where dogs must be on leash, and surprise! Most aren't. At least there are less at the park than on the streets by my house.
> 
> I'm not worried about those dogs, I'm worried about MY dog that has no problem going for another dog's throat. He's muzzled in public but he can still growl and bark and lunge. If that dog takes offense and goes after mine he can't defend himself and I have to step in, and that puts ME at risk. And most people I see letting dogs off leash don't have nearly the same kind of control over their dogs as I see on this forum! Where am I supposed to take my dog to safely get his exercise while he's still in training if no one thinks leash laws matter? I would have to drive for an hour at least to find an unpopulated area and I can't do a 2 hour drive every day.


Have you tried doing this?


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## Gwenhwyfair

In practice a good idea, in reality that's not how it works nor should it.

It's not about 'worrying' about things you can't control it's about the reasons for having AND obeying leash laws.

This doesn't solve the problem

The problem is untrained or unsafe dogs that could/ would cause serious problems if left off leash, not how well trained your dogs is.

People can't and shouldn't pick and choose what laws they wish to follow. Instead if the laws don't make sense we should try to change them instead of trying to get around them.

In general-

The problem, especially in this country, is people don't want to invest in creating systematic 'rules of the road' for dogs in public areas such as licenses for dogs that are well trained, because ...well... Because of this stubborn sense of laziness and irrational fear that no one should have privileges even if they are earned and deserved. Really this is a problem that could be solved in a more effective and fair manner....but probably never will...would require too much honesty and humility.




boomer11 said:


> instead of worrying about things you cant control like trained/untrained off leash dogs, people should concentrate on things that they can like themselves and their dog.
> 
> train yourself and your dog how to act when you encounter another dog because no matter where you live you will eventually run into an off leash/stray dog.


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## GSDolch

DobbyDad said:


> When people walk their dogs off leash it forces me to trust their judgement. I don't know most people I see in the street. Nor do I trust their judgement on their dog. I don't think I need a leash for my dog, but I use one because, as a stranger on the street I gave not earned your trust in my dog. I should not force that on you.



This ^ as far as the trust goes.

I don't mean to be offending or personal to people, but for me it is VERY simple. If the law says dogs must be on leash, your dog better be leashed. I don't care how well someone thinks their dog is trained, the majority of the time it is not the case. This board is just a tiny small pool of people who have dogs that can probably be walked off leash, compared to the real world dog people who are out there every day.

Speaking in general; I don't know you, I don't trust you, I don't know your dog, I don't trust your dog, law says leash, get the dog on a leash! I have no issues calling and reporting if I need to. If you can't follow the law, don't go to that place. If you don't like the law, work on getting it changed through the right channels.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Well said. 




DobbyDad said:


> When people walk their dogs off leash it forces me to trust their judgement. I don't know most people I see in the street. Nor do I trust their judgement on their dog. I don't think I need a leash for my dog, but I use one because, as a stranger on the street I gave not earned your trust in my dog. I should not force that on you.


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## Blanketback

I make concessions for people every day. I listen to children screaming while I'm shopping and I don't tell them to leave. I yield to careless drives without taking off their bumpers. There's lots of things I do for strangers, every day. The least they can do for me is allow me the simple pleasure of walking my _trained_ dog off leash.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Problem is - There's no law against kids screaming, or running around like little banshees in restaurants and lets not go into being stuck next to them in airplanes. 

Not that I would be totally against such laws....

Licenses for kids? :laugh:




Blanketback said:


> I make concessions for people every day. I listen to children screaming while I'm shopping and I don't tell them to leave. I yield to careless drives without taking off their bumpers. There's lots of things I do for strangers, every day. The least they can do for me is allow me the simple pleasure of walking my _trained_ dog off leash.


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## Blanketback

No, there's no law dictating how they ought to behave in public. But Ms. Busybody could always make a call to protective services to investigate why their bawling like that - maybe neglect? Lol, I'm sure it's happened somewhere already.


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## selzer

Ya know what, my post count doesn't mean a darn thing. I may have posted every other of the random thread's posts, bumped every dog in the rescue section, and said "great looking dog(s)" to every picture posted on this site. It doesn't mean anything other than having been around long enough to hit my 'Post Quick Reply' button that many times. 

But the argument is silly. When I walk a dog off lead, I am not worried about other on-lead dogs, children running by screaming or cycling, people trying to pet or hug them, squirrels or deer, and cars backfiring. Sorry, but if my dog is off lead, these things are not a problem for my dog. Thus I am not worried. 

Off lead, in general, my dog walks better than on lead, remains in heel unless I give them the OK GO TO MY CAR, command, or walks slightly in front but under total voice command. I should feel somehow guilty because other people may wonder whether or not my dog might attack them. 

That's baloney. I am far more worried about a dog that leaping around, lunging, and pulling its owner with a prong collar around its neck or an e-collar, or a head collar. If I see a dog on a Flexi lead, I know that there is someone on the other end that thinks they have a dog on a lead, but is mistaken. What's the difference? Really. 

If you see a dog on a flat collar -- Oh my, that dog is 100 pounds, that person is only 120, that dog can drag her over to mine if it wants to. 

If you see a dog on a prong collar -- the dog is not trained enough to not have a prong collar on (we are talking about perceptions here, not how dogs are acting), what if it breaks? What if it does not prevent the dog from pulling its owner over to mine?

If we see a dog with a head collar, do they have a back up? Because dogs can and do get out of head collars when they are scared or agitated enough. 

When we see a dog. We are nervous, leash or no leash if the dog is not being properly managed by its person. If the leash is in the hand of a little kid. That's scary. Because if the dog wants to, it will. 

However, some of us DO have dogs that ARE trained. No YOU do not know me or my dogs. But look at what is in front of you. If the dog is walking with its people and is not charging at you, is not 500 yards away, then you have LESS to worry about than you do when you see Granny with her 120# dog on a prong collar, or Gramps with his 65 pound dog on a Flexi-lead, or a kid with a dog that outweighs it, leash or no leash. Or the yayhoo with the Yorkie Mix -- Oh yeah, that dog was not on leash. Mine was, because I saw another car and thought, "Oh, there are people here, I'll keep her leashed."

Whatever. An ambassador for the breed follows the laws, picks up after their dogs, and has their animal under control in public. I actually manage to do these things.


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## martemchik

I’m with Sue on this one…great post BTW.

I’m not sure why an off-leash dog worries people so much. I’m in an area where probably 99% of the time the off leash dogs are very well behaved or just plain ignore everything going on around them. If I see someone walking a dog, it’s usually on lead, if it’s off, you can pretty much guarantee that thing is well behaved and not going to dart off after a prey object or anything like that. Like I’ve stated earlier, most people see me walking my GSD and recently my two GSDs and quickly gather up their dog. No one is risking letting their dog just run up to a couple of German Shepherd no matter how well trained they look.

The leash law…puts all responsibility and liability onto the off-leash dog owner. If a fight breaks out, that person understands that they have no legal standing for anything. So they allow their little thing to run up to a DA dog…all the risk is on them. If they let their bigger dog run up to a large DA dog, same thing, all on them. I hate dog fights as much as anyone, and I have yet to run into one when on the really rare occasion another dog runs up to my dog. As much as I don’t like to trust the average dog owner, I’ve learned they’re pretty responsible when it comes to having their dogs off leash. No one wants to lose their dog to a car or something else and most people out there understand what I just talked about when it comes to liability of an off-leash dog in an on-leash area.

I think being a breed ambassador is having a well-trained GSD. One that can easily be off-leash and not bother anyone or their dog. I don’t know how many times people were impressed by the fact that I can do what I can off-leash with my dog. It’s much more impressive than just showing that you can walk your dog on a leash and follow laws.


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## DobbyDad

In my area 99% of the dogs with people are on leash. Representatives of the breed are not just the dog but the owners as well. If you are the one out of a hundred whose dog is not on a leash it makes you either irresponsible or makes you seem like you think you are better than everyone else. Now being hat we have GSDs we are obviously better than everyone else but we shouldn't rub their noses in it.


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## selzer

DobbyDad said:


> In my area 99% of the dogs with people are on leash. Representatives of the breed are not just the dog but the owners as well. If you are the one out of a hundred whose dog is not on a leash it makes you either irresponsible or makes you seem like you think you are better than everyone else. Now being hat we have GSDs we are obviously better than everyone else but we shouldn't rub their noses in it.



I would rather representatives of the breed rub their noses in how well-trained and well-behaved the breed can be, than how out of control, unmanageable, and even dangerous the dogs can be. 

What a thing to complain about!

Too many of our dogs are nerve bags, dog aggressive, reactive, high prey drive, and too many of our dog's owners need help in training and managing their dogs. And we are going to complain about the few dogs out there that people have raised and trained, tested and trust enough to let them walk off lead with them. And we are afraid of what _those_ people are portraying to the rest of dogdom. 

If you are a perfect 10, the strut your stuff, wear that bikini, you go girl! If your dog is a well-trained, well-socialized, and capable of being trusted off leash, you go girl! Strut your stuff! I wish more GSD owners would get off the backsides and get out there with their dogs, and get them to that level. We need some positive ambassadors of the breed of both the human and canine varieties. And ya know what, you may work with your dog, and get him out there, and never get him quite to that level where you would trust him off lead. That's ok. What's not ok, is moaning about the people who have achieved that level instead of working toward it. 

Off lead dogs that are not managed are a pain. Off-lead dogs that are properly managed should inspire us, not infuriate us.


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## DobbyDad

selzer said:


> I would rather representatives of the breed rub their noses in how well-trained and well-behaved the breed can be, than how out of control, unmanageable, and even dangerous the dogs can be.
> 
> What a thing to complain about!
> 
> Too many of our dogs are nerve bags, dog aggressive, reactive, high prey drive, and too many of our dog's owners need help in training and managing their dogs. And we are going to complain about the few dogs out there that people have raised and trained, tested and trust enough to let them walk off lead with them. And we are afraid of what _those_ people are portraying to the rest of dogdom.
> 
> If you are a perfect 10, the strut your stuff, wear that bikini, you go girl! If your dog is a well-trained, well-socialized, and capable of being trusted off leash, you go girl! Strut your stuff! I wish more GSD owners would get off the backsides and get out there with their dogs, and get them to that level. We need some positive ambassadors of the breed of both the human and canine varieties. And ya know what, you may work with your dog, and get him out there, and never get him quite to that level where you would trust him off lead. That's ok. What's not ok, is moaning about the people who have achieved that level instead of working toward it.
> 
> Off lead dogs that are not managed are a pain. Off-lead dogs that are properly managed should inspire us, not infuriate us.



I guess I know which one of the two people you are.


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## Chip18

selzer said:


> Ya know what, my post count doesn't mean a darn thing. I may have posted every other of the random thread's posts, bumped every dog in the rescue section, and said "great looking dog(s)" to every picture posted on this site. It doesn't mean anything other than having been around long enough to hit my 'Post Quick Reply' button that many times.
> 
> But the argument is silly. When I walk a dog off lead, I am not worried about other on-lead dogs, children running by screaming or cycling, people trying to pet or hug them, squirrels or deer, and cars backfiring. Sorry, but if my dog is off lead, these things are not a problem for my dog. Thus I am not worried.
> 
> Off lead, in general, my dog walks better than on lead, remains in heel unless I give them the OK GO TO MY CAR, command, or walks slightly in front but under total voice command. I should feel somehow guilty because other people may wonder whether or not my dog might attack them.
> 
> That's baloney. I am far more worried about a dog that leaping around, lunging, and pulling its owner with a prong collar around its neck or an e-collar, or a head collar. If I see a dog on a Flexi lead, I know that there is someone on the other end that thinks they have a dog on a lead, but is mistaken. What's the difference? Really.
> 
> If you see a dog on a flat collar -- Oh my, that dog is 100 pounds, that person is only 120, that dog can drag her over to mine if it wants to.
> 
> If you see a dog on a prong collar -- the dog is not trained enough to not have a prong collar on (we are talking about perceptions here, not how dogs are acting), what if it breaks? What if it does not prevent the dog from pulling its owner over to mine?
> 
> If we see a dog with a head collar, do they have a back up? Because dogs can and do get out of head collars when they are scared or agitated enough.
> 
> When we see a dog. We are nervous, leash or no leash if the dog is not being properly managed by its person. If the leash is in the hand of a little kid. That's scary. Because if the dog wants to, it will.
> 
> However, some of us DO have dogs that ARE trained. No YOU do not know me or my dogs. But look at what is in front of you. If the dog is walking with its people and is not charging at you, is not 500 yards away, then you have LESS to worry about than you do when you see Granny with her 120# dog on a prong collar, or Gramps with his 65 pound dog on a Flexi-lead, or a kid with a dog that outweighs it, leash or no leash. Or the yayhoo with the Yorkie Mix -- Oh yeah, that dog was not on leash. Mine was, because I saw another car and thought, "Oh, there are people here, I'll keep her leashed."
> 
> Whatever. An ambassador for the breed follows the laws, picks up after their dogs, and has their animal under control in public. I actually manage to do these things.


Seems reasonable to me.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Welp....:crazy:

The arguing will continue. 

In the meantime, sans any other ideas........if you don't follow the leash laws as specified in your area and you get busted it's nobodies fault but your own. Folks can complain about getting the 'stink eye' or what ever else at the end of the day technically you're in the wrong. :shrug:


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## Chip18

If we have reached the point in this thread where reasonable people are starting to disagree... then might I suggest..Flexi leads, plastic bags with holes in there bottoms and paper spray for everybody!!


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## DobbyDad

I suggest put one end of the leash on the dog and the other in your pocket. Anyone paying attention will know you have control of your dog.


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## Harry and Lola

When I look at how many times a member here has posted, I tend to read their stuff, it indicates to me they are experienced as they must have been here quite a long time to build up 1000's of posts which means they must have quite a bit of knowledge of our breed.

Unfortunately GSD owners have a reputation, by some people in communities as being arrogant bullies that think they are better than everyone else because they own a German Shepherd - a powerful easy to train breed. Usually these are the people that frequent dog parks and like to voice their opinion to anyone that will listen, fuelling GSD owners reputation.

It is a shame some people choose to walk their GSD off lead around other people's dogs that are on lead in public on lead areas, to me it reinforces GSD owners arrogance and many people choose not to see a well trained dog, just a person flaunting the law and someone that thinks they are above everyone else.

Wouldn't it be better to walk your dog off lead in a very large off lead area?

I still stand by my statement that no matter how well trained and how much control you have over your dog, there may be an occasion, just one but that is all it takes, when your off lead GSD ignores you and is off after prey or another dog. 

Anyway, difference of opinions here and at the end of the day, all you can do as an individual is your little bit to make the dog ownership world a better place for everyone


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## Harry and Lola

DobbyDad said:


> I suggest put one end of the leash on the dog and the other in your pocket. Anyone paying attention will know you have control of your dog.


This is a really good idea.

LOL Chip, flexi leads - my behind!


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## Gwenhwyfair

Yup, that's the only way....apparently, sneaky off leash...too bad we couldn't come up with a better way to have more fun and freedom with our dogs...but hey that's the US. Better to just argue and point fingers.

Btw I went to a state park last summer and when we stopped in for trail maps the ranger told us twice, very clearly, no flexis, no long lines ON leash ONLY 6' leash max.






Chip18 said:


> If we have reached the point in this thread where reasonable people are starting to disagree... then might I suggest..Flexi leads, plastic bags with holes in there bottoms and paper spray for everybody!!


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## Sarah~

So we are just supposed to deal with it because you (general you not anyone specific) can? No way... Not me. I go out of my way to find a place where I will not see any off leash dogs because I am trying to be responsible, and I still have to deal with off leash dogs? Nope. It only takes once for everything to go wrong and sorry, no dog is perfect every single time. I'd like to see these places where most of the off leash dogs are well trained and the owners are responsible, where I live it's exactly the opposite.


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## selzer

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Welp....:crazy:
> 
> The arguing will continue.
> 
> In the meantime, sans any other ideas........if you don't follow the leash laws as specified in your area and you get busted it's nobodies fault but your own. Folks can complain about getting the 'stink eye' or what ever else at the end of the day technically you're in the wrong. :shrug:


*HELLO, Ohio's leash law states the dog must be contained to your property by a tether or fence OR under the control of a person. It does NOT say the dog must be leashed at all times when off the owner's property EXCEPT where it states that a bitch in season must be contained to the owners property or leashed. 

I am not in the wrong here. 
* 


Harry and Lola said:


> When I look at how many times a member here has posted, I tend to read their stuff, it indicates to me they are experienced as they must have been here quite a long time to build up 1000's of posts which means they must have quite a bit of knowledge of our breed.
> 
> Unfortunately GSD owners have a reputation, by some people in communities as being arrogant bullies that think they are better than everyone else because they own a German Shepherd - a powerful easy to train breed. Usually these are the people that frequent dog parks and like to voice their opinion to anyone that will listen, fuelling GSD owners reputation.
> 
> It is a shame some people choose to walk their GSD off lead around other people's dogs that are on lead in public on lead areas, to me it reinforces GSD owners arrogance and many people choose not to see a well trained dog, just a person flaunting the law and someone that thinks they are above everyone else. *I am sure there are some that do this, but in Ohio, you can follow the leash law without using a leash. It is not arrogance. It is the law. Only in season bitches must be leashed off your property. If the are not in season, then they need only be under your control.*
> 
> *Wouldn't it be better to walk your dog off lead in a very large off lead area?* *That would be Ohio, I think. The only areas where the dog must be leashed when under your control is public parks that have it posted. I didn't realize that those were the places we were talking about. *
> 
> I still stand by my statement that no matter how well trained and how much control you have over your dog, there may be an occasion, just one but that is all it takes, when your off lead GSD ignores you and is off after prey or another dog. *
> 
> Ya know what, for some of us, it would be far less likely than it would be for your collar or leash to have a failure and your dog go after something out there. I train my dogs around outside dogs specifically because I need for them to NOT go running after them, because of a medical condition where I drop things. If I drop a leash, and my dog runs into another dog and tries to eat it, then I am liable. Because I know I WILL drop the leash, I HAVE to train my dogs to come back to me when the feel the leash drop, and to not freak out aggressively when they see another four legged critter. So I go to classes and we see dogs weekly, and so far this has been enough for my girls not to go after other critters. By the time my dogs are ready to go off-lead up town, I know the dog, inside, outside, upside down. But again, I don't have the luxury of just believing a leash will keep my dogs safe. I have to go a few extra miles to keep them safe. *
> 
> Anyway, difference of opinions here and at the end of the day, all you can do as an individual is your little bit to make the dog ownership world a better place for everyone


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## Gwenhwyfair

*Well hello to you too! 


Leash laws vary by state, county, city, even dog parks I'm NOT talking about when on your property nor have I commented on any of your posts, so what the heck is your point then?

My posts have referred specifically to PUBLIC areas.*







selzer said:


> *HELLO, Ohio's leash law states the dog must be contained to your property by a tether or fence OR under the control of a person. It does NOT say the dog must be leashed at all times when off the owner's property EXCEPT where it states that a bitch in season must be contained to the owners property or leashed.
> 
> I am not in the wrong here.
> *


----------



## selzer

Sarah~ said:


> So we are just supposed to deal with it because you (general you not anyone specific) can? No way... Not me. I go out of my way to find a place where I will not see any off leash dogs because I am trying to be responsible, and I still have to deal with off leash dogs? Nope. It only takes once for everything to go wrong and sorry, no dog is perfect every single time. I'd like to see these places where most of the off leash dogs are well trained and the owners are responsible, where I live it's exactly the opposite.


Most of the off-leash dogs around here do not have a human with them. They ARE in violation of the leash law. The dogs that have a person with them, are generally very well-behaved, except if they are in their yard with an e-fence that is all the way out to the sidewalk. 

I have NEVER seen a dog out for a walk with its owner off lead, that wasn't extremely well-behaved. Parks may be a different story though, I avoid them like the plague. We are not allowed on any of the beaches around here, and the parks are all on-lead, and well, it is more fun to go to the fairgrounds or just walk along the sidewalks and streets, and to play grounds.


----------



## selzer

Gwenhwyfair said:


> *Well hello to you too!
> 
> 
> Leash laws vary by state, county, city, even dog parks I'm NOT talking about when on your property nor have I commented on any of your posts, so what the heck is your point then?
> 
> My posts have referred specifically to PUBLIC areas.*


The leash law here, states clearly that the dog must EITHER be contained to your property by a tether or fence OR be under the control of a person. Unless your bitch is in heat, then she needs a leash off your property. 

We are talking about public places, sidewalks, streets, paths, etc.


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## Gwenhwyfair

There, maybe this will help re-reclarify. 





Gwenhwyfair said:


> Welp....:crazy:
> 
> The arguing will continue.
> 
> In the meantime, sans any other ideas........*if you don't follow the leash laws as specified in your area *and you get busted it's nobodies fault but your own. Folks can complain about getting the 'stink eye' or what ever else at the end of the day technically you're in the wrong. :shrug:


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

In Georgia the laws VARY, mostly by county or city.

Some counties allow off leash 'under control' dogs, some do not.

Then the rules may change within that county when you enter a city park!

So maybe OHIO is one size fits all but *that's not the case everywhere* and really isn't germane to the point I've been making all along....

*This isn't about leash laws it's about UNTRAINED dogs needing to be leashed, which is why I mentioned it would be nice to have a testing licensing system so those with well trained dogs could have more freedom.*

:help:


----------



## Harry and Lola

Bridget said:


> Husband and I have gotten so frustrated in the past about people, especially in parks, having their dogs off leash when the dog is not well trained to stay with the owner. No problem if the dog is truly voice trained, but most dogs are not. We have pretty much stopped walking our lab at all because he doesn't like other dogs (loves people) and every time some off leash dog would come running up to him and, even though our dog was on leash and controlled, it was a big problem. So, Loki doesn't get walks because other people don't control their dogs. Sad, but we compensate in other ways.
> 
> Fast forward now to Zeus. Zeus is an American bulldog mix, very nice dog, but dislikes other dogs. Zeus was in our local shelter for more than a year before some girls that live in an apartment fell in love with him and adopted him. Zeus is a lot of dog, so we hoped it would work out and it seemed it was, as the girls were committed. Last night one of them returned Zeus to the shelter (the other was too upset). Guess what their undoing was? Other tenants with unleashed dogs who would run up to Zeus. So now poor Zeus is back at the shelter, not because he wasn't well taken care of and controlled, but once again because other folks don't control their dogs. Sad. I wish every time someone takes their under trained dog off leash in public they would realize that it might be a big problem for someone else's dog. It's one thing if the dog stays within a few feet of his owner and immediately comes back to heel when asked, but a different thing for the dog to be running 50 yards ahead of the owner and greeting every person and dog he sees. Sorry for the long post. I am just so frustrated.


Going back to the OP, Loki can't be walked and Zeus has been returned to the shelter because off lead dogs rush them in on lead areas. Lets just take away what the law says for a minute and look at it dog by dog. 

Whilst some people have trained their dog to ignore other dogs and have excellent control and are able to walk off-leash confidently, I would say there are just as many, if not more, people that don't but feel they do and perhaps these are the people that think 'well selzer over there is doing it, so why can't I, my dog is just as good blah blah blah'. 

How do you justify some people can and some people can't especially when the people that can't think they can! How do you explain to a person that their dog should not be walking off-leash because it is unstable and this person disagrees and insists his dog is perfect off-leash and the fact his dog rushed another dog - well that is the other dogs fault. 

Unfortunately some people truly believe their dog is under their effective voice control and will swear black and blue their dog is very well trained, when they are not - these are the people that are making Loki's and Zeus' life difficult. These are the people that see Selzer walking a very well trained GSD and think my dog is exactly the same.

If it is good for the goose, sometimes it is not good for the gander.


----------



## selzer

Gwenhwyfair said:


> In Georgia the laws VARY, mostly by county or city.
> 
> Some counties allow off leash 'under control' dogs, some do not.
> 
> Then the rules may change within that county when you enter a city park!
> 
> So maybe OHIO is one size fits all but *that's not the case everywhere* and really isn't germane to the point I've been making all along....
> 
> *This isn't about leash laws it's about UNTRAINED dogs needing to be leashed, which is why I mentioned it would be nice to have a testing licensing system so those with well trained dogs could have more freedom.*
> 
> :help:


I prefer it the way it is. If your dog does damage, you are liable period, in Ohio. The off leash dog will be at fault most of the time, as the on-lead dog owner, can claim that their dog was under control via the leash. 

Forcing us to thave some type of testing, licensing system, means training and equiping people throughout the area to assess dogs, this will cost money, and the dogs will be licensed which will cost money, and a system will have to be in place for all of this which will cost the people who do train their dogs money. 

It is too bad for people who see someone walking an off-lead dog and being nervous. Some people walk dogs on leash and people are nervous. What do you do for them? If a dog is out of control, like the dogs rushing at the dog in the OP, those dogs should have been fined, etc. If they are running at large, that is a totally other matter.


----------



## martemchik

The more we talk about "people doing this and that" the more I realize it really all depends on your location and your experience.

Some places...people with off-lead dogs are irresponsible. Other places...they're very responsible.

BTW...there are no "dog owner licenses" in Germany. In Europe, dog culture is just different. There is a lot more responsibility expected by the public of dogs, and people that own GSDs or other powerful breeds understand what that responsibility is. There are a lot more freedoms afforded to people with dogs...but if you take advantage of those freedoms, you get hit hard.

Not sure where this "German dog license/testing" came from...but its false.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

It leads to more liability and more restrictions/leash laws.

That's the trajectory we are on, more laws, more restrictions, BSL, and on all in the name of 'not forcing us to have testing'. It's self defeating to the extreme.

We are 'forced' to take tests and renew drivers licenses. 

Why not reward people who go through the effort of training??? It would encourage more people to train and possibly even better breeding for stable trainable dogs. Dogs would be allowed in more public places (like they are in Many European countries). More freedom, no hassles for those who have passed the license test. It may also relieve some of the issues with dogs and housing and insurances.

If you don't want to take the training/test with your dog you won't be forced to. You just will have to keep it on leash when off your property at all times and not have access to as many public venues. No force, just people who put the effort in are rewarded for their efforts!!

It's really not that counter intuitive.

The way it is now we make rules and laws for the lowest common denominator all in the name of not wanting to what?? It makes no sense. 

@ Martemchek it varies, but according to Mrs K and I think BoTaBe there are rules for testing and licensing. I don't remember the exact details I'd have to find the thread but the jist was they do have stricter licensing but the pay off was A Lot more freedom with dogs in public.





selzer said:


> I prefer it the way it is. If your dog does damage, you are liable period, in Ohio. The off leash dog will be at fault most of the time, as the on-lead dog owner, can claim that their dog was under control via the leash.
> 
> Forcing us to thave some type of testing, licensing system, means training and equiping people throughout the area to assess dogs, this will cost money, and the dogs will be licensed which will cost money, and a system will have to be in place for all of this which will cost the people who do train their dogs money.
> 
> It is too bad for people who see someone walking an off-lead dog and being nervous. Some people walk dogs on leash and people are nervous. What do you do for them? If a dog is out of control, like the dogs rushing at the dog in the OP, those dogs should have been fined, etc. If they are running at large, that is a totally other matter.


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## boomer11

Harry and Lola said:


> however you can not say that your dog will not do what comes naturally to him and herd or go after prey, if the opportunity presents itself regardless of his training.


this is such a typical lazy owner excuse. what about working dogs like sar and police? do they just chase prey since it comes naturally to them? if your dog is chasing and you cant call it back then train some more instead of making excuses.


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## boomer11

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Welp....:crazy:
> 
> The arguing will continue.
> 
> In the meantime, sans any other ideas........if you don't follow the leash laws as specified in your area and you get busted it's nobodies fault but your own. Folks can complain about getting the 'stink eye' or what ever else at the end of the day technically you're in the wrong. :shrug:


well duh. did anyone say it would be someone elses fault if they got busted? people who have well train dogs know full well they are "breaking the law". multiple people on here already said if the dogs get in a fight the unleashed dog takes full blame. i'm willing to bet an officer wouldnt even give a well trained dog a ticket though. only a warning if that.

if my dog is well behaved and obedient and has the aptitude to be trained to that level then i'm going to reward him with more freedom than a normal dog. he's earned it. i dont care what the sign says. 

give me and my dog the stink eye if you want. he certainly doesnt care. he's having more fun than your dog is on his walk.


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## Harry and Lola

I think an off leash license is a good idea as it will generally force those people that don't train their dog or those that need further training and stability exercises to do so in order to get a license to walk their dog off lead. 

This may help people that have a fear of off-lead dogs relax a little?

Although how you police/regulate it, I don't know, perhaps through your local Council?

Then again, some people will be against another 'license' you need to have in order to go about your daily business, but if it means better training for handlers and dogs then imo is worth the hassle.


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## selzer

We need a dog license for the dog. This costs $12. What it does for me? Zip. Nada. Nothing whatsoever. In fact, the tags are in my coat pocket, now, as I haven't gotten around to gathering up their collars and replacing last year's tags. It pays for the dog warden and the cost of administering the licenses. 

Pay your money, get your license. You do not have to prove that you own your home, or have a land-lord's permission to own a dog. You do not have to prove that you have taken the dog to the vet in the last five years. You do not have to prove that you know that dogs should eat a diet specific to canines. It certainly does not prove that you know the laws pertaining to dog-ownership.

But, the dog warden cannot come to your door, in Ohio, and ask if your dogs are licensed. If they are there for another complaint, they can ask. So probably half the people in Ohio, do not even bother to get their dogs licensed. Which means when the dog warden needs a new vehicle, the price goes up for the good people who pay. 

A kennel license is $60, with it you get 5 dog licenses. (You can buy more dog license tags for $1 if you have a kennel license.) What it does for me? Well, it is cheaper than purchasing a license for each dog. I have a tag for each dog. But to license 10 dogs you are paying $65, rather than $120. Still it is a one time, once per year savings. Other than that, it does nothing for me. You do not have to prove anything to get a kennel license. 

To get a Kennel license (in Ohio), you need to get a vender's license (one time fee of $25), and then you need to pay your $60. You do not need to prove that your dogs are intact or are breeds used for hunting. (Kennel licenses are for dogs kept for hunting or breeding.) You do not have to prove you know how to whelp a litter, or how long a dog is pregnant for, or how soon a bitch should be bred, or how often, or how young, or well, anything. You pay the money, they give you the license. 

A dog-walking license will be just that. Pay the money, and then they will give you and off-lead license. Because our little singular dog warden is not going to organize and assess all the dogs in the county whose owners want to walk them off lead. The best they might do is tell people to present their CGC. And the CGC does NOT prove that a dog is safe off lead around other dogs, nor does it prove that a dog will recall under all circumstances. Nor does it prove that a dog will not bite a jogger or a person in a wheel chair, or a kid sleighing down a hill. It just doesn't. It is an evaluation, and it says the dog and its owner have passed a set of tests on a particular day, under test-conditions. 

I have seen too many dogs pass a CGC that I wouldn't even want to work next to in a class. It isn't a test that indicates a dog is safe in public off lead. 

Who then will organize and set up a test for this? 

And, if your licensed walk-free dog _does_ do something for which the owner ought to be liable, would the test evaluator also be liable. If you think about it, if you take your dog through a 20 week program, at the end of which you are tested for and passed a test designed to assure you and all around you that your dog will be safe to people of all ages, races, and genders, and dogs of all sizes, genders, on leash or off. Passing that, would you feel more confident with your dog? Might you trust the test results and take your dog out and off lead even though you are not so sure? And if you do, and your dog decides to attack a child on a bicycle, or a toy dog on a lead, should the person administering the test be liable as well?

No, we do not need any more tests. If the dog bites someone or attacks someone's dog, you are liable, and if people want to look at me walking Babsy and try that with there dog, and it does not go well, what is the difference than doing that, and looking at Cesar working with a dog on TV, and trying that at home? I'm sure the judge is not going to accept the "well she did it" defense. 

I want my tax dollars to go to dealing with the problems with drugs and crime here. I do not want tax dollars to go to making more licenses that don't mean anything. I do not want to need to get a license to ride a bicycle, to use a knife, to harbor a cat, to cut down a tree, to paint my house, to swim in the creek. Sorry, I think we require enough licenses. It is just a tax. I pay a tax to own dogs. I do not want to pay another tax to walk dogs.


----------



## LifeofRiley

Gwenhwyfair said:


> It leads to more liability and more restrictions/leash laws.
> 
> That's the trajectory we are on, more laws, more restrictions, BSL, and on all in the name of 'not forcing us to have testing'. It's self defeating to the extreme.
> 
> We are 'forced' to take tests and renew drivers licenses.
> 
> Why not reward people who go through the effort of training??? It would encourage more people to train and possibly even better breeding for stable trainable dogs. Dogs would be allowed in more public places (like they are in Many European countries). More freedom, no hassles for those who have passed the license test. It may also relieve some of the issues with dogs and housing and insurances.
> 
> If you don't want to take the training/test with your dog you won't be forced to. You just will have to keep it on leash when off your property at all times and not have access to as many public venues. No force, just people who put the effort in are rewarded for their efforts!!
> 
> It's really not that counter intuitive.
> 
> The way it is now we make rules and laws for the lowest common denominator all in the name of not wanting to what?? It makes no sense.


Hi Gwen,

Overall, I agree with your thesis on this thread. 

The only point of possible disagreement I have with this particular post is your inference that we are likely to see more and more breed-specific legislation. My opinion is that, in many areas of the country, the breed-ban trend will ebb. Several studies show they are ineffective and pretty much all national/local animal advocacy groups oppose them. Indeed, there are a significant number of States that have passed laws prohibiting local municipalities from enacting breed-bans and other breed-based restrictions. I posted a more detailed take on the state of “BSL” in the United States and beyond in another thread… the title of which I can’t remember at the moment.

To close, I, like you, would love to see more municipal and (possibly) State policy initiatives focused on ways to incentivize/reward positive dog ownership behaviors.


----------



## Chip18

Oh well till we get back on topic, JQP says screw training....


----------



## Harry and Lola

LOL Chip

Ok, so I wanted to try DobbyDad's suggestion today - put the lead in your pocket, so I did and I'm very impressed.

I have been spending quite a bit of time on Harry, as his loose lead and off lead healing needed perfecting and I have him to the point where he heels perfectly both on loose lead and off lead, however I only practice off lead in the training grounds and at home, so today, I went to a local on-lead park and put the lead in my pocket, I wasn't holding it and he heeled perfectly for about a 2km walk.

I found this method really good, so maybe some of the off-lead walkers might want to give it a go as your dog is walking off lead and it may help with people that are concerned about off leaders.


----------



## Chip18

In the interest of harmony and out of curiosity I'll give it a shot also!


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Well duh.  How old are you? Never mind, doesn't matter.

This isn't about 'you'. 

You're talking about a tiny slice of what this is about, only. 






boomer11 said:


> well duh. did anyone say it would be someone elses fault if they got busted? people who have well train dogs know full well they are "breaking the law". multiple people on here already said if the dogs get in a fight the unleashed dog takes full blame. i'm willing to bet an officer wouldnt even give a well trained dog a ticket though. only a warning if that.
> 
> if my dog is well behaved and obedient and has the aptitude to be trained to that level then i'm going to reward him with more freedom than a normal dog. he's earned it. i dont care what the sign says.
> 
> give me and my dog the stink eye if you want. he certainly doesnt care. he's having more fun than your dog is on his walk.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Thank you. 

True about BSL. It is, however, being replaced with more and more 'dangerous dog' laws which are reactive in nature and don't address prevention enough.






LifeofRiley said:


> Hi Gwen,
> 
> Overall, I agree with your thesis on this thread.
> 
> The only point of possible disagreement I have with this particular post is your inference that we are likely to see more and more breed-specific legislation. My opinion is that, in many areas of the country, the breed-ban trend will ebb. Several studies show they are ineffective and pretty much all national/local animal advocacy groups oppose them. Indeed, there are a significant number of States that have passed laws prohibiting local municipalities from enacting breed-bans and other breed-based restrictions. I posted a more detailed take on the state of “BSL” in the United States and beyond in another thread… the title of which I can’t remember at the moment.
> 
> To close, I, like you, would love to see more municipal and (possibly) State policy initiatives focused on ways to incentivize/reward positive dog ownership behaviors.


----------



## Blanketback

"I think most important to dogs is to be able to explore the out of doors off leash. There’s nothing like a long walk in which a dog is allowed to run here, sniff there, and be free to explore at his or her own pace to make a dog healthy and happy."
https://www.patriciamcconnell.com/theotherendoftheleash/autonomy-domestic-dogs

This is why I like to go leash-free. I agree wholeheartedly with McConnell, and having GSDs for 30 years, primarily off leash, has proven it to me. If I'm an arrogant law-breaker by thinking this way, so be it. Nobody's perfect. When I said, "This is the kind of dog I want," I didn't mean I wanted a dog that could do a focused heel for 5 miles. I meant I want a dog that has the freedom to make the wrong choice, but won't. A dog that willing waits for the release word to go sniff a tree, or whatever he wants to do.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

I was expecting your arguments.

1) Don't let perfect be the enemy of good. Nothing is perfect but IMO this could work better then slapping more laws and liability on everyone!
2) As I said earlier, the way I envision this, people who don't want to go through the extra steps or costs of the licensing will NOT be forced to. They would have to keep their dogs leashed and not have as much access to public places. Same as now.
3) We already have models of how is could work in our society, sort of like getting a commercial drivers license OR similar to what service dogs go through. In fact in a service dog thread where people were complaining about access with SDs crackem made this point. 

Really, we already have a lot of rules and laws limiting our freedom with our dogs, it's all very reactionary too. 

So the question is, what's wrong with rewarding people who choose to take the extra step, efforts to be tested, certified and earn more freedom with their dogs?


Really, I don't mind admitting this is pretty hypothetical. The reason we probably would not put licensing like this in place is because of a primary reason that has nothing to do with results oriented analysis: People - who are too lazy or inept will have their self esteem hurt when they see others achieving more with their dogs.** They'll not admit it's their egos but will say things like 'it's not fair', 'government interference', 'it's dangerous'. In other words they'll blame everything but themselves to preserve their egos. We just can't have nice things because some will get all you know what hurt and would rather keep everything at the lowest common denominator level. 

Now this doesn't apply to you Sue because I know you train a lot with your dogs. I'm guessing you come from a more ideological place on this.

(**i witness this attitude all the time when out and about with my dogs who while not perfect are pretty good, "My dog could never do that". It's not the dog though, it's the people who won't try, either because it's too much work, they are lazy or they fear failure and it would make them feel bad.)






selzer said:


> We need a dog license for the dog. This costs $12. What it does for me? Zip. Nada. Nothing whatsoever. In fact, the tags are in my coat pocket, now, as I haven't gotten around to gathering up their collars and replacing last year's tags. It pays for the dog warden and the cost of administering the licenses.
> 
> Pay your money, get your license. You do not have to prove that you own your home, or have a land-lord's permission to own a dog. You do not have to prove that you have taken the dog to the vet in the last five years. You do not have to prove that you know that dogs should eat a diet specific to canines. It certainly does not prove that you know the laws pertaining to dog-ownership.
> 
> But, the dog warden cannot come to your door, in Ohio, and ask if your dogs are licensed. If they are there for another complaint, they can ask. So probably half the people in Ohio, do not even bother to get their dogs licensed. Which means when the dog warden needs a new vehicle, the price goes up for the good people who pay.
> 
> A kennel license is $60, with it you get 5 dog licenses. (You can buy more dog license tags for $1 if you have a kennel license.) What it does for me? Well, it is cheaper than purchasing a license for each dog. I have a tag for each dog. But to license 10 dogs you are paying $65, rather than $120. Still it is a one time, once per year savings. Other than that, it does nothing for me. You do not have to prove anything to get a kennel license.
> 
> To get a Kennel license (in Ohio), you need to get a vender's license (one time fee of $25), and then you need to pay your $60. You do not need to prove that your dogs are intact or are breeds used for hunting. (Kennel licenses are for dogs kept for hunting or breeding.) You do not have to prove you know how to whelp a litter, or how long a dog is pregnant for, or how soon a bitch should be bred, or how often, or how young, or well, anything. You pay the money, they give you the license.
> 
> A dog-walking license will be just that. Pay the money, and then they will give you and off-lead license. Because our little singular dog warden is not going to organize and assess all the dogs in the county whose owners want to walk them off lead. The best they might do is tell people to present their CGC. And the CGC does NOT prove that a dog is safe off lead around other dogs, nor does it prove that a dog will recall under all circumstances. Nor does it prove that a dog will not bite a jogger or a person in a wheel chair, or a kid sleighing down a hill. It just doesn't. It is an evaluation, and it says the dog and its owner have passed a set of tests on a particular day, under test-conditions.
> 
> I have seen too many dogs pass a CGC that I wouldn't even want to work next to in a class. It isn't a test that indicates a dog is safe in public off lead.
> 
> Who then will organize and set up a test for this?
> 
> And, if your licensed walk-free dog _does_ do something for which the owner ought to be liable, would the test evaluator also be liable. If you think about it, if you take your dog through a 20 week program, at the end of which you are tested for and passed a test designed to assure you and all around you that your dog will be safe to people of all ages, races, and genders, and dogs of all sizes, genders, on leash or off. Passing that, would you feel more confident with your dog? Might you trust the test results and take your dog out and off lead even though you are not so sure? And if you do, and your dog decides to attack a child on a bicycle, or a toy dog on a lead, should the person administering the test be liable as well?
> 
> No, we do not need any more tests. If the dog bites someone or attacks someone's dog, you are liable, and if people want to look at me walking Babsy and try that with there dog, and it does not go well, what is the difference than doing that, and looking at Cesar working with a dog on TV, and trying that at home? I'm sure the judge is not going to accept the "well she did it" defense.
> 
> I want my tax dollars to go to dealing with the problems with drugs and crime here. I do not want tax dollars to go to making more licenses that don't mean anything. I do not want to need to get a license to ride a bicycle, to use a knife, to harbor a cat, to cut down a tree, to paint my house, to swim in the creek. Sorry, I think we require enough licenses. It is just a tax. I pay a tax to own dogs. I do not want to pay another tax to walk dogs.


----------



## Blanketback

Interestingly, Ian Dunbar is right now travelling the globe, with one of his workshops being about off-leash reliability.
"The games taught at the workshop are designed to improve the quality of the relationship between dogs and owners. They can help fine-tune a dog’s existing obedience skills and improve training"
Dr. Ian Dunbar to lead two dog-training seminars in Portland next month | OregonLive.com
https://www.jamesandkenneth.com/store/show/EVN-010

To me, it's far more than a simple "train your dog" issue. Of course being off leash means training, but it's the end results I'm after - the relationship I have with my dog, and also something I can't quite articulate - how my dog views his world, how content he is.


----------



## martemchik

I don't think it’s a licensing/testing issue. It's a cultural thing that we'll never get over here in the states. People are "pet owners" here and don't really respect dogs for what they are.

I’m sure many of us have been “judged” for having pure bred dogs instead of shelter mutts, and it’s funny how quickly the tone changes when people realize that you do more with your dog than just hike in the park…that there is a reason for all the obedience and its highly unlikely that their mutt can ever do anything like that. BTW…have nothing against mutts, just pointing out the current dog culture that exists in the United States.

I’ve been do a “doggy day” where a bunch of activities for dogs were set up in a park and everyone was there having a good time with their on leash dogs. There was a lure-course set up that was enclosed by one of those orange plastic construction fences. I watched dog after dog not listen to their owner…and people on the sidelines just laugh and giggle and say “oh how cute” when dogs would not come to their owner time after time once their turn was over. I got in there, my dog did his two laps, I said “down” once, he downed, I walked over and put a leash on. You should’ve heard the collective gasp. The shock that a dog, who was just in crazy prey drive mode, would listen to its owner. It’s just not expected out of dogs here. People think it’s cute when a dog doesn’t listen, they don’t think about the fact that if the situation was in an un-fenced area…that is a very dangerous situation.

It’s become normal for dogs not to listen, not to be trained, because everyone should have a dog or two. There are so many dogs in shelters, and I see over and over how people want to save or rescue everything in sight. Dog has bit 3 times? Just needs the right owner! Dog hates children? Just needs a home with no kids and live a life where it will never see children!

It will always boil down to culture…if I had a nickel for every time I heard, “well my dog doesn’t need to be that obedient, he’s just a pet.”


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## Blanketback

I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to "rescue everything in sight" as long as people are realistic about it. I had a dog that hated children and the dog had a great life, without harming any kids. I'd take a dog that had a bite history, because I don't believe that it's a reason to PTS. But I'm talking about being reasonable in my expectations. My kid-hating dog wasn't taken to playgrounds or street fairs, and that's not any kind of loss on my part, since I don't have children. If a dog has a bite history, I'd want to know the circumstances and I'd want to know that the dog is capable of giving warning signs first. You can't just say, "oh, a biter" as if that covers everything. You need to know why first.


----------



## martemchik

Blanketback said:


> I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to "rescue everything in sight" as long as people are realistic about it. I had a dog that hated children and the dog had a great life, without harming any kids. I'd take a dog that had a bite history, because I don't believe that it's a reason to PTS. But I'm talking about being reasonable in my expectations. My kid-hating dog wasn't taken to playgrounds or street fairs, and that's not any kind of loss on my part, since I don't have children. If a dog has a bite history, I'd want to know the circumstances and I'd want to know that the dog is capable of giving warning signs first. You can't just say, "oh, a biter" as if that covers everything. You need to know why first.


I think I've just seen too many people use "its a rescue" as an excuse for not really training the dog. Oh, its aggressive...well I rescued it, I didn't get to work with the dog as a puppy and so it came to me like this and I can't do anything about it but I still want to take my dog to dog events without really working on its issue. And that type of stuff ruins it for those of us that are responsible with our dogs.

There's a few restaurants around me that allow dogs on their patios in the summer. All its going to take is for one idiot to think their dog is fine there when it isn't for that to be unavailable as well...


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## Blanketback

I'm waiting for the day that someone says their dog isn't trained because they're just too darned lazy to do anything about it. Imagine how refreshing that honesty would be! LOL!


----------



## martemchik

It would be great...but that's the problem. People don't care enough to get their dogs trained. There isn't any benefit to having a well trained dog in today's society. You can take your untrained dog and people will just think its cute that your dog doesn't listen.

Places that do allow dogs (like the restaurants I've mentioned) don't care much about the behavior, and I think the people that do bring their dogs are responsible enough to realize that they shouldn't bring a dog that will cause issues. I was there with my boy one day when a lady came in, saw him, and left to get her rotty. Both dogs were very well behaved and so no one really cared they were there.

But say you needed a license to do that...most people (including myself to an extent) wouldn't go about getting it just so that they can take their dog here or there. It's not that big of a deal for me to just leave my dog at home when I go grab lunch. I grab lunch at plenty of places that don't allow dogs anyways...

I know we're going off on a tangent...but you'd be surprised how many times people have told me that my dog is to well trained and I don't allow him to "just be a dog." It's like its bad that my dog is obedient and it would be better if he wasn't well trained and ran a muck whenever we were in public...


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## Blanketback

I'd get the license, if such a thing was available to me. I'd view it similar to a driver's license, or a restricted weapons license (where I live, you need one). I don't think it's a bad thing that people are obliged to show some proficiency with these things before they can join in the fun.  If it meant that untrained dogs and oblivious owners were relegated to their own back yards and dog parks, and I could avoid them, I'd be fine with that.


----------



## martemchik

Blanketback said:


> I'd get the license, if such a thing was available to me. I'd view it similar to a driver's license, or a restricted weapons license (where I live, you need one). I don't think it's a bad thing that people are obliged to show some proficiency with these things before they can join in the fun.  If it meant that untrained dogs and oblivious owners were relegated to their own back yards and dog parks, and I could avoid them, I'd be fine with that.


Meh, I know its a hypothetical, but the license wouldn't even come close to being perfect. Like selzer mentioned...CGC has blown up to be a "look how great my dog is" thing when it really doesn't test a lot of things that would make a well-behaved dog. My dog had his CD before his CGC and somehow the CGC was the thing that makes him accepted by insurance companies and the like?

My problem with a license is that you'd still only get in trouble IF you'd get caught. Just like a drivers license...you can drive for 50 years like an idiot, and if you never run into a cop or an authority figure that can reprimand you for it, nothing will ever happen to you. So in the case of walking your dog off leash...are cops going to pull over and make sure you have a license to do so? Seems like a waste of public employee time IMO.

There's also probably huge legal issues that would come up. I have a feeling that it would somehow be unconstitutional to institute licenses for dogs and lets be serious, you can't take away an American's freedom without a fight, and there are way more people out there that would fight for the freedom to do what they want with their dog. Not sure when the last time the majority was in favor of government intervention in their lives was... On top of that, I read it on here and on Facebook all the time about how people complain about just licensing their dog with their local authorities on a yearly basis because of the cost. I'm not out on a limb by saying that they'll probably not want to pay extra to license their dog in order to be able to do X, Y, Z with it.


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## Gwenhwyfair

All the 'dangerous dog' laws and leash laws are far from perfect. So once again perfection being the enemy of good doesn't hold water, at all.

The big difference with the idea I put forth is it actually incentivizes people with something positive, for once.

It's sort-a funny how we go on about using as much positive training as possible with our dogs but we humans are perfectly content to do the opposite with each other.

IMO the big question is why don't a lot of people want to train to begin with, for I think untrained dogs out in public is one of the main reasons we have leash laws and such to begin with.


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## Gwenhwyfair

I have been told more then once the reason to not train is because "it hurts the dog's feelings".

Now this is just my personal opinion as I don't have any data to back it up but I think a lot of people don't put effort into training because they feel hurt and as failures if their beloved pooch doesn't respond almost immediately to the training. They take it personally, rather then view it as what you described earlier, a way to build a better relationship with their dog over time.






Blanketback said:


> I'm waiting for the day that someone says their dog isn't trained because they're just too darned lazy to do anything about it. Imagine how refreshing that honesty would be! LOL!


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## selzer

Untrained dogs is a huge problem. 

If people would work with a dog to the point of even a Rally Novice (not rocket science and in some ways easier than a CGC for some dogs), the would be far less likely to dump the dog when they have to move, or when the get pregnant, or when the dog no longer matches the furniture. Suddenly you are buying furniture to match your dog, and you are considering the dog in you employment options, etc. 

People who have never done it, are terribly intimidated by it. Trust me when I say, if I can do it, anybody can. Well, that is not so. Some dogs would be totally freaked out by the show atmosphere. If I had a dog like that, I would find some other venue to train the dog in, or train to the point where he could manage all the obstacles, but never take the dog to a show. 

A dog that will freak out at a show though, probably shouldn't be off leash in any public place, for its own safety as well as others'. 

If you can teach your dog to follow you, to heel on a lead, to sit, down, come front, and finish, you can get an RN. It is easier for some dogs than a CGC, because no one is going to touch your dog. No one will look in its ears, and handle its paws, brush its back pet its head. And there is not long stay, no reaction to another dog, and no supervised separation. 

The CGC is a one trip in front of the evaluator to pass. So you do not have to do it three times, to get a title by a couple of different judges, but it is more evasive, even than the CD. 

The CD has other challenges than the CGC or the RN. The dog has to heel on lead and off lead. The dog has to heel around two stewards who are not going to touch your dog. The dog has to sit in a row with other dogs for a minute and not break its stay. And down in a row with other dogs for 3 minutes and not break its stay. The dog must STAND, off lead, while the Judge comes up and touches the head, back, and rump of the dog. It needs to STAY and RECALL, and you really cannot tell the dog multiple times to do a thing, which actually promotes good training and makes success a bit easier overall -- kind of a problem with Rally. 

But RNs, CGCs, CDs, all of these are really not that hard to achieve. If people could choose one of them, depending on their and their dog's temperament. Some people have a hard time with the signs and unpredictable order/type of signs used in Rally, and would do better with a CD. Some people are not going to get the supervised separation in a CGC, not any time soon. But a RN for such a dog might be very doable. 

If they would just train their dog to that novice level, a LOT of the dog-related problems would go bye bye. 

For one thing, when you train, once a week in a class for several classes in preparation to one of these goals, you meet other dog people. People talk about their dogs, problems, ideas about raising and maintaining dogs. Unless you walk through the class with earphones jamming, you will learn stuff. You will overhear people saying what an idiot the neighbor is, she lets her dog out at night to go potty, and it got hit by a car. And maybe you think, "ooh, I kind of let mine out the front door for a few minutes at night to go potty, they think that's really irresponsible, and dangerous, I am not going to do that anymore."

But mostly, training the dog to the level required for any of these things makes you develop a bond with your dog. A bond of trust going both ways. You will not let the dog off lead, because you _know _it has a problem with recall when there are distractions, and so forth. Your dog gains confidence in himself and in you. 

The dog is a LOT easier to live with. It listens when you say, "eh-eh!" or "Quiet!" or "Enough!" Because you learned to train the dog in commands, enforce commands, and to reward the dog for the behaviors you want. 

It is so unfortunate that people get a puppy, and at some point, be it 10 weeks or 10 months, take it through 6-8 weeks of training classes. The dog drags them into training classes, and at the end of 6 or 8 weeks, is getting the hang of SIT, STAY, COME, DOWN, and HEEL, but it still pulling most of the time, and is not 100% on any of it. Instead of signing up again, people go away either thinking their dog graduated, Yay! No more classes!, or thinking that their dog is not capable of any higher level of behavior. "Yeah, I took him to classes, but he just isn't that kind of dog." I suppose if people go into training with the idea of just taking class after class, they might not start at all. 

A single set of classes can get you on the road to a well-behaved pet, and some people can go on from their on their own. But a lot of us need to go back to keep us honest so to speak -- too lazy maybe to get out there with the dog and keep on training, without the regular meetings. And, socialization doesn't happen in a vacuum, and classes are a great place to train with distractions. So those of us with the higher post counts, and the little letters after our dogs' names often continue to spend time in dog classes. 

Ok, I'm rambling. TL, DR: I wish people would train their dogs to a novice level.


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## selzer

About 6 years ago, I had a litter of pups that were beyound 10 weeks old, and I still had 5 of them. So I got my friend, my brother in law, and my sister to each take a pup to training classes, I took one to the class they were in, and put the other in basic. 

Anyhow, my sister had this pained look on her face, and said she feels so sorry for Pinkie. I asked why? She said, because she is in being trained. 

Huh? 

Why is that a bad thing? 

I think you're right, some people feel it will break a dog's spirit or hurt their feelings.



Gwenhwyfair said:


> I have been told more then once the reason to not train is because "it hurts the dog's feelings".
> 
> Now this is just my personal opinion as I don't have any data to back it up but I think a lot of people don't put effort into training because they feel hurt and as failures if their beloved pooch doesn't respond almost immediately to the training. They take it personally, rather then view it as what you described earlier, a way to build a better relationship with their dog over time.


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## Harry and Lola

For people that choose to walk their dog off-lead why don't you find a large off-lead area and walk around that.

Your dog will be off lead, you will be happy because your dog is off lead and you can choose to allow him to heel or the freedom to wander sniffing around.

This is what I do when I want Lola and Harry to enjoy the freedom of trotting at their pace enjoying the smells and sights without being right next to me ---- I found a large off lead area that I walk around and they happily trot at their pace, sometimes with me, sometimes ahead of me, sometimes behind me.

And I am operating within the confines of our laws

And I am not impacting on people walking their dogs on lead in on lead areas



If we all disregard a law that we don't agree with, or don't want to live by, or think it doesn't really apply to us then what will society become - pretty scary in my thinking


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## Harry and Lola

selzer said:


> I wish people would train their dogs to a novice level.


Agree, however that will never happen, some dog owners are just too lazy to spend an hour a week in OB classes and prefer dumping their dogs in a dog park where they can sit and read the paper or chat with others..


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## Chip18

selzer said:


> Untrained dogs is a huge problem.
> 
> If people would work with a dog to the point of even a Rally Novice (not rocket science and in some ways easier than a CGC for some dogs), the would be far less likely to dump the dog when they have to move, or when the get pregnant, or when the dog no longer matches the furniture. Suddenly you are buying furniture to match your dog, and you are considering the dog in you employment options, etc.
> 
> People who have never done it, are terribly intimidated by it. Trust me when I say, if I can do it, anybody can. Well, that is not so. Some dogs would be totally freaked out by the show atmosphere. If I had a dog like that, I would find some other venue to train the dog in, or train to the point where he could manage all the obstacles, but never take the dog to a show.
> 
> A dog that will freak out at a show though, probably shouldn't be off leash in any public place, for its own safety as well as others'.
> 
> If you can teach your dog to follow you, to heel on a lead, to sit, down, come front, and finish, you can get an RN. It is easier for some dogs than a CGC, because no one is going to touch your dog. No one will look in its ears, and handle its paws, brush its back pet its head. And there is not long stay, no reaction to another dog, and no supervised separation.
> 
> The CGC is a one trip in front of the evaluator to pass. So you do not have to do it three times, to get a title by a couple of different judges, but it is more evasive, even than the CD.
> 
> The CD has other challenges than the CGC or the RN. The dog has to heel on lead and off lead. The dog has to heel around two stewards who are not going to touch your dog. The dog has to sit in a row with other dogs for a minute and not break its stay. And down in a row with other dogs for 3 minutes and not break its stay. The dog must STAND, off lead, while the Judge comes up and touches the head, back, and rump of the dog. It needs to STAY and RECALL, and you really cannot tell the dog multiple times to do a thing, which actually promotes good training and makes success a bit easier overall -- kind of a problem with Rally.
> 
> But RNs, CGCs, CDs, all of these are really not that hard to achieve. If people could choose one of them, depending on their and their dog's temperament. Some people have a hard time with the signs and unpredictable order/type of signs used in Rally, and would do better with a CD. Some people are not going to get the supervised separation in a CGC, not any time soon. But a RN for such a dog might be very doable.
> 
> If they would just train their dog to that novice level, a LOT of the dog-related problems would go bye bye.
> 
> For one thing, when you train, once a week in a class for several classes in preparation to one of these goals, you meet other dog people. People talk about their dogs, problems, ideas about raising and maintaining dogs. Unless you walk through the class with earphones jamming, you will learn stuff. You will overhear people saying what an idiot the neighbor is, she lets her dog out at night to go potty, and it got hit by a car. And maybe you think, "ooh, I kind of let mine out the front door for a few minutes at night to go potty, they think that's really irresponsible, and dangerous, I am not going to do that anymore."
> 
> But mostly, training the dog to the level required for any of these things makes you develop a bond with your dog. A bond of trust going both ways. You will not let the dog off lead, because you _know _it has a problem with recall when there are distractions, and so forth. Your dog gains confidence in himself and in you.
> 
> The dog is a LOT easier to live with. It listens when you say, "eh-eh!" or "Quiet!" or "Enough!" Because you learned to train the dog in commands, enforce commands, and to reward the dog for the behaviors you want.
> 
> It is so unfortunate that people get a puppy, and at some point, be it 10 weeks or 10 months, take it through 6-8 weeks of training classes. The dog drags them into training classes, and at the end of 6 or 8 weeks, is getting the hang of SIT, STAY, COME, DOWN, and HEEL, but it still pulling most of the time, and is not 100% on any of it. Instead of signing up again, people go away either thinking their dog graduated, Yay! No more classes!, or thinking that their dog is not capable of any higher level of behavior. "Yeah, I took him to classes, but he just isn't that kind of dog." I suppose if people go into training with the idea of just taking class after class, they might not start at all.
> 
> A single set of classes can get you on the road to a well-behaved pet, and some people can go on from their on their own. But a lot of us need to go back to keep us honest so to speak -- too lazy maybe to get out there with the dog and keep on training, without the regular meetings. And, socialization doesn't happen in a vacuum, and classes are a great place to train with distractions. So those of us with the higher post counts, and the little letters after our dogs' names often continue to spend time in dog classes.
> 
> Ok, I'm rambling. TL, DR: I wish people would train their dogs to a novice level.


WOW now I'm embarrassed!


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## David Taggart

In my past, and pretty often, I proved to be a people-agressive individual every time I walked my male, met unleashed snorkelings and treated dog owners as equals. Until I realized that I'm training my dog, then everything that surrounded us turned into one mess of distractions.


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## martemchik

Harry and Lola said:


> For people that choose to walk their dog off-lead why don't you find a large off-lead area and walk around that.
> 
> Your dog will be off lead, you will be happy because your dog is off lead and you can choose to allow him to heel or the freedom to wander sniffing around.
> 
> This is what I do when I want Lola and Harry to enjoy the freedom of trotting at their pace enjoying the smells and sights without being right next to me ---- I found a large off lead area that I walk around and they happily trot at their pace, sometimes with me, sometimes ahead of me, sometimes behind me.
> 
> And I am operating within the confines of our laws
> 
> And I am not impacting on people walking their dogs on lead in on lead areas
> 
> 
> 
> If we all disregard a law that we don't agree with, or don't want to live by, or think it doesn't really apply to us then what will society become - pretty scary in my thinking


That's kind of the discussion...

In the states, there are very few areas (even huge areas) where dogs are allowed off leash. In most places, dog parks are the only places where a dog is legally allowed to be off leash.

Like a poster mentioned...even the national parks don't allow off-lead dogs. And the park I go to...is 500 acres, doesn't technically allow off-lead dogs. I run into a dog at that park MAYBE once every three trips. But its still illegal for me to have my dog off-lead there.

The only place where you could legally walk your dog off-lead would be private land, and unless you have permission of the land owner, you'd be trespassing.

We have, at one point or another, had way too many irresponsible owners with their untrained dogs, do something stupid and so localities have set up ordinances to protect people. I guess even 30-40 years ago, dogs used to roam around the neighborhood. People started allowing aggressive/dangerous dogs to do this, problems occurred. Leash laws were instituted. Now...even those of us who are responsible, can't do anything with our dogs without the fear of either getting caught by the proper authorities, or getting reported to the proper authorities even though we aren't bothering anyone or causing anyone trouble.


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## selzer

Harry and Lola said:


> For people that choose to walk their dog off-lead why don't you find a large off-lead area and walk around that.
> 
> Your dog will be off lead, you will be happy because your dog is off lead and you can choose to allow him to heel or the freedom to wander sniffing around.
> 
> This is what I do when I want Lola and Harry to enjoy the freedom of trotting at their pace enjoying the smells and sights without being right next to me ---- I found a large off lead area that I walk around and they happily trot at their pace, sometimes with me, sometimes ahead of me, sometimes behind me.
> 
> And I am operating within the confines of our laws
> 
> And I am not impacting on people walking their dogs on lead in on lead areas
> 
> 
> 
> If we all disregard a law that we don't agree with, or don't want to live by, or think it doesn't really apply to us then what will society become - pretty scary in my thinking


Perhaps it is because where we live, property is owned by people. I live in the country, but the property out here is owned by farmers. There are no places that are specifically designated for taking dogs off-lead. About 45-50 miles away in the next county, there is a tiny dog park. About 1/4-1/2 of an acre for the big dogs, and maybe half that area for the little dogs. My fenced back yard is about the same size. It is not a place where you would do much, but sit at the picnic table while your dog plays. You can't bring toys, as that might incite a fight. So you kind of unhook the dog and sit at the picnic table. It wouldn't be a walk with the dogs, to circle the perimeter 50 times or so maybe. 

We have Geneva State Park -- on lead. The Jefferson Village Park -- on lead. I don't go to these places, unless I want to leash up my dogs. There is a little ford where some unsavory characters hang out, and I have taken dogs down there, but it is kind of spooky. If someone else has a dog down there, I hook mine up and come away, because I don't want there to be any problems. 

Mostly, I go to the fairgrounds, typically when there aren't any events. They house horses there, and people train for harness racing. I stay away from that area. And I will play with the less well trained dog along inside the fence. Or go across the road in the fields over there, it is county property, and I am not trespassing, until some cop tells me that I am. 

I go to playgrounds, but if kids come, I generally leave. I do not want parents worrying that the big bad GSD will eat their children. 

Mostly I walk off-lead with the well-trained dogs (one at a time), up town, through the village streets, on the sidewalks and in parking lots. This is perfectly legal, so long as the dog is under my control.


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## DellaWrangler

I raised my first pup in Europe (limited leash regulation) and my second in the US (leash laws out the ying-yang). The best approach seems to be somewhere in the middle -- limited leash restrictions, but draconian fines/potential criminal prosecution, should your dog injure another dog/human. Leash laws in and of themselves are no substitute for irresponsible ownership.

Case in point: as a starry-eyed new owner/law-abiding citizen, I researched all the off-leash dog parks in the area, before I brought the pup home and took her to the best-reviewed one, once she had all her shots. (We live in an urban area, with very limited off-leash space.) In one month, we've had not one, but three, unprovoked attacks by dog-aggressive animals that could have ended badly, had I not intervened. One of the "seasoned" park-goers told me, "Oh, we just know to keep away from certain dogs." At that point, I started looking at private dog clubs (expensive, I know, but presumably the dogs there are temperament-tested.) Except, there are none I could find within driving distance.

What we do now -- I wake up at 5:30 every morning and take her to a secluded park, so she can run around, while it's empty. Same thing in the evenings, after dark (which, coincidentally, has my family worried for MY safety, as a small-ish female). On the weekends, I drive 2-6 hours round trip, to take her someplace (beach, off-leash hiking trails), where she can roam. She has fantastic recall and zero aggression issues.

My point is, if the leash-laws were curtailed, but Fifi's owner knew that they'd be on the hook for thousands of dollars in fines/possible jail time, if their little darling bites someone/injures another dog, we'd be a lot safer as a community.

*Getting off my soapbox*


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