# I'm clueless as to what's happening to her.



## Aikosu (May 20, 2016)

Hi I'm new here and I made an account here in hopes to get help and gain some knowledge on what's (first time owner) wrong with my 7 1/2 month old GSD.

So I got my GSD who is named Lexi at around 13 weeks old and she was very social and had great fun up until she hit 6 months. At around 6 months it was as if she had literally forgotten all her training and did not respect or listen to anyone in our household at all. I know that pups go through an adolescent stage during this age but I never really knew it was this serious. She does commands whenever she feels like it or when she sees a treat in my hand which I really don't like. I don't want her to do commands only when I have a treat. 

A couple of problems I have that are serious happen when she is out on walks and out in our backyard. During walks, whenever she sees a stranger she lunges and barks at them and when she sees a dog it's twice as worse because the barking she does for other people gets very deeper sound wise when she sees the other dog. The same thing applies when she's in the yard. She goes absolutely insane when she sees someone walking by our gate and she's jumping all over it while barking and same the goes for other dogs. She doesn't even listen to me or any of my family members when she's outside. I try to have her in a sit and tell her to "leave it" when she sees someone or another dog but it just doesn't work.

She has done some obedience training but due to financial problems (She's my dog and I am responsible for everything although my family helps me out from time to time since I'm a full time college student) I can't keep paying for obedience classes but I hope to do so this summer since I start work in a couple of weeks to help pay for them.

I really love my dog and I am trying my best to fix these problems but it's just stressful to have them go on day in and day out and I tend to be a very laid back person, very calm. My parents are even at the point where they might just ask me to give her away or take her to a shelter and that's something I don't want to happen. Any kind of information I can get that can help me will be very appreciated since it will be coming from experienced people.

Thank you for taking the time to read this post.

TLDR: My dog Lexi goes bonkers when she see's other people and dogs and I don't know if it's out of fear or aggression. She doesn't listen when outside and only listens when she's indoors whenever I have a treat or if she wants to. Due to all this, I risk losing her because my parents don't want a dog with these types of behavior problems.


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

Hi. I think some of it has to do with her age. My male GSD forgot his manners around that time too.
But the bottom line is that the behavior needs to be corrected asap.
When she barks and lunges, Correct her.
When she refuses a command or takes too long to comply, Correct her.

I think if you could have even one visit with a very good trainer to show you how to use the leash and a prong collar to make corrections, you will see a big difference in her behavior. But you need to be consistent.

And you might want to limit her time in the yard unattended.
Barking at people and dogs walking by will become a habit for her, she wont stop unless she knows it's not okay.
Plus your parents and neighbors will hate the noise.

And put her in her crate or separate her from you and your fam when you've had enough.
Good luck. I hope all goes well.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

This is why we always try to convince college students to wait. Don't sweat it, though a lot of us got our first pup when we were in college or in no position to have a puppy. 

Let me ask you a question: If your dog had an abcess on her back and needed a surgery that would cost $150 cash to get it fixed, otherwise the infection would become worse, and the dog might succumb to it, what would you do? 

With that answer in mind, I want for you to understand that the main reason dogs are given up to shelters is lack of training. Lots of these adolescent dogs die in those shelters. Owner turn-ins often do not live as long as it takes the owner to get out of the parking lot. Even pure-bred dogs are put down with impunity because of lack of training and behaviors that might never have started if the dog hadn't lacked direction during adolescence. 

You are seeing a festering wound that needs to be addressed. It is time to dig deep into your pockets, barrow from your parents, sell something you care about, and get your dog some training classes. I know time and money are both a problem, but use your dog to take breaks while studying. 40 minutes of study, 10 minutes obedience session. 40 minutes of study, 10 minutes in the back yard playing. 40 minutes of studying, and a 10 minute walk. And a snickers bar -- don't forget the snickers bar. 

Keep it short, keep it light, keep it fun. Treats are something that you do in the beginning to load your praise like you load a clicker. Then you phase out treats. You give them for trying something new, for excellent responses, for a string of behaviors done well. More importantly, you need to start training sessions and end training sessions with something that the dog will be successful with. 

Be consistent. Instead of punishing the dog for what you do not like, set the dog up to succeed and praise it for succeeding. Instead of waiting for a dog to fail and then giving it negative feedback, tell the dog what you want it to do, help it, and praise it for doing it. Don't wait for the dog to start lunging at the other dog, Say, With Me, and turn away from the other dog BEFORE there is a reaction. Don't wait for the dog to react with barks when people are approaching, Tell your dog to SIT! and make sure you stay far enough away from the people to stay under the dog's threshold for now. 

Before the dog reacts, act. Before the dog exhibits a behavior you don't want, give a command for behavior you do want. 

Not sure how things are at home, but if the dog has the run of the house, while you are not there, maybe it is time for a little less freedom -- crate the dog when you are not home. Leash the dog to you when you are studying. The dog doesn't rule the roost.  You do. You give the dog the opportunities that he/she will do well in, you set the stage, you set her up to succeed.


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## Aikosu (May 20, 2016)

Findlay said:


> Hi. I think some of it has to do with her age. My male GSD forgot his manners around that time too.
> But the bottom line is that the behavior needs to be corrected asap.
> When she barks and lunges, Correct her.
> When she refuses a command or takes too long to comply, Correct her.


Thank you for your reply and i'll be sure to do so although I need to ask about how I go on to correct her? I know what you mean by it but how can I correct her without looking like as if I am abusing her? I don't hit her or anything like that as I wouldn't be able to live with myself but how do I go on about doing it? I put a leash on her while she's outside and I keep a watch out for any passers by so that she doesn't run off to to them and I put her in a sit position and give the leash a slight tug to make her snap out of trying to run for them. I also forgot to mention that she never goes outside unsupervised as my father or I are always there since we're afraid she might grab and eat something she isn't supposed to. I just want to know how to correct her without looking inhumane to other people since that's what I'm most scared of.

I'll also take into consideration of having a prong collar and absolutely get a trainer to show me how to use it since I don't want to hurt my dog with it.


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## Aikosu (May 20, 2016)

selzer said:


> This is why we always try to convince college students to wait. Don't sweat it, though a lot of us got our first pup when we were in college or in no position to have a puppy.
> 
> Let me ask you a question: If your dog had an abcess on her back and needed a surgery that would cost $150 cash to get it fixed, otherwise the infection would become worse, and the dog might succumb to it, what would you do?
> 
> ...


Thank you for your reply! I'll be sure to take everything you have said into thought and use it to help me in her training. Also I'd like to mention that when she's in the house she doesn't really have the run of it. I made sure from the first day I got her up until right now that she wouldn't. I have her sit for her food and wait for her to look at me and give her the command to go, never have her block any passages and if she is I poke her slightly to move and she does, and I also never have her walk into a room first before me.

Again, thank you for taking the time to reply. I'll try my very best to solve these things with her.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

How much exercise does this pup get? 6 months was around the time I needed to up my pup's physical activity. 

Walking is not exercise. I'm talking about good off leash running time. 

What do you do for mental stimulation? These are dogs that were bred to work, and work all day long. Many are not content to be house pets. 

Personally if it were me, I would consider starting over from square one using different commands. Every time you have given your pup a command and she did not obey it - you taught her that she didn't have to obey you. Try a different set of commands, reteach the behaviors and do not give a command that you cannot reinforce unless you are certain it will be obeyed.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Aikosu said:


> Thank you for your reply and i'll be sure to do so although I need to ask about how I go on to correct her? I know what you mean by it but how can I correct her without looking like as if I am abusing her? I don't hit her or anything like that as I wouldn't be able to live with myself but how do I go on about doing it? I put a leash on her while she's outside and I keep a watch out for any passers by so that she doesn't run off to to them and I put her in a sit position and give the leash a slight tug to make her snap out of trying to run for them. I also forgot to mention that she never goes outside unsupervised as my father or I are always there since we're afraid she might grab and eat something she isn't supposed to. I just want to know how to correct her without looking inhumane to other people since that's what I'm most scared of.
> 
> I'll also take into consideration of having a prong collar and absolutely get a trainer to show me how to use it since I don't want to hurt my dog with it.


having a trainer can really help with showing you how to give a correction with the collar you are using. 

You are part way there with the leash in the yard but you're missing an important step. Turn her and keep her attention on you. Don't let her start at the people walking by. That simply builds her frustration and desire to chase off the next person/dog that walks by.
If necessary to break her focus, walk her around the corner of the house or farther from the fence. Get her attention on you BEFORE she locks in on the approaching distraction. 
Start indoors on a "watch me" command and practice it with no distractions. 
The "don't walk into a room before me. out the door before me" is mostly meaningless. No, don't let them bowl you over trying to get out but it really doesn't matter who leaves the room first. 
since you have a fenced area, make sure she has opportunity to run off some excess energy. and play some "hide and seek" games in the yard with treats. Things that will work her mind but also be fun. 
do daily training sessions, even if only for a couple minutes at a time. Once a week, do a longer session of 30 minutes or so. 

A training class also helps her learn to keep her focus around other dogs. To ignore them while she is working is an important step in training. 
When they hit a phase like this, I do re-up the reward ratio for a couple days. Then I start phasing it out again. 1 command = 1 treat. Then randomly require 2 commands before giving a treat while sometimes 1 command = treat. Then phase it to 2 -3 commands before rewarding. etc etc Keeping it random lets her know that she is still going to be rewarded for her work. You can also use playtime as a reward. While playing fetch in the yard, ask for a sit or to get into heel position before you throw. Have her down and, once she is proficient in "wait" have her wait a second after you throw (this is a BIG step because the temptation is so high)


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

Aikosu said:


> Thank you for your reply and i'll be sure to do so although I need to ask about how I go on to correct her? I know what you mean by it but how can I correct her without looking like as if I am abusing her? I don't hit her or anything like that as I wouldn't be able to live with myself but how do I go on about doing it? I put a leash on her while she's outside and I keep a watch out for any passers by so that she doesn't run off to to them and I put her in a sit position and give the leash a slight tug to make her snap out of trying to run for them. I also forgot to mention that she never goes outside unsupervised as my father or I are always there since we're afraid she might grab and eat something she isn't supposed to. I just want to know how to correct her without looking inhumane to other people since that's what I'm most scared of.
> 
> I'll also take into consideration of having a prong collar and absolutely get a trainer to show me how to use it since I don't want to hurt my dog with it.


Hi. There's a guy on the forum, Chip18 and he has some really good links that will help you.
I've asked him to send them to you.

One guy he recommends is Jeff Gelman, Solid K9 Performance.
He has lots of training videos including a couple on Prong collars.

I get that sometimes corrections seem inhumane or mean.
My dog wears a prong collar. It sits high and tight around his neck.

When he gets a leash correction he responds quickly. Sometimes it's a gentle pop...not a correction just a reminder.

Also. 99% of the time I warn him with my voice before a correction. I say Eh! he knows.

In the event of real anti-social behavior ie aggressive barking/lunging you might have to put muscle behind the correction and your pup will yelp. But she will correct herself and if not she gets another one : (

I am new at this too. But I have a trainer who owns and trains GSDs, We've been in training for over a year. I follow what the trainer teaches me in class. And then I practice between classes.
I have the time to train my dog. Your circumstances are different.

My dog has good social skills. But when he conveniently forgets to use them, I need to remind him with a pop of the leash.

Your pup's so young. She's going to be fine.
Stay with the forum and get your dad involved.

Also and most important. Have fun with your pup. Play ball. run around.
take her swimming.


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## HappyGoLucky (Apr 7, 2016)

In addition to what everyone else already suggested, try to relax and be consistent. If you are stressed - the dog will sense it and will also be stressed, which doesn't help the situation. You need to be THE leader! Someone your furry friend looks up to, follows you, protects you. And you need to work on those qualities as well. The regular frequent training sessions and teaching her new tricks will help you both to fine-tune the ways you communicate with each other. This, in turn, will strengthen the bond and she'll be more confident and calm. But everything takes time and patience and consistency are the keys. Don't let her get away with "I don't feel like sitting when you tell me to". Follow through with each command.

Good luck with the little troublemaker.


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## Aikosu (May 20, 2016)

voodoolamb said:


> How much exercise does this pup get? 6 months was around the time I needed to up my pup's physical activity.
> 
> Walking is not exercise. I'm talking about good off leash running time.
> 
> ...


I tend to give her 2-3 hours of physical exercise and mental stimulation apart from walking. For physical I have fetching for a big ball and switching to a smaller one, I have a flirt pole which she loves, off leash running back and forth freely around the yard with constant supervision so she doesn't do anything she is not supposed to, and I tend to set up a couple of obstacles here and there where she can jump. For mental I have her in a sit inside the house and put cups in front her of and hide a small piece of chicken in one of them and I mix them in front of her and have her find it, I have a kong to put treats into or her food, and I have her sit outside and throw a treat and let her find it. I don't really know many mental exercises and I'm open to some suggestions.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

go back to the beginning --
tell us about the dog at 13 weeks
tell us how you socialized her, what was her experience with "strangers" -- you said she was very 
social and had lots of fun --- and then the music stopped? she became Big and people dropped off
being social and so she is frustrated
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...0-rethinking-popular-early-socialization.html 


before you can correct her she has to have a concept of what you want from her .


this is why I say to deal with your pup in a way that will be consistent with what you are going
to expect as an adult ---
if you give and then deny frustration builds and you have conflict


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## Aikosu (May 20, 2016)

Findlay said:


> Hi. There's a guy on the forum, Chip18 and he has some really good links that will help you.
> I've asked him to send them to you.
> 
> One guy he recommends is Jeff Gelman, Solid K9 Performance.
> He has lots of training videos including a couple on Prong collars.


What's funny is that I actually found Jeff Gelman YouTube videos yesterday during the day before I made this whole thread :laugh2: I'll be sure to check out his videos thoroughly. Also, I can't seem to reply to Chip18 because I have to have 15 posts on here in total so if you could possibly send him a message on my behalf that I read it and did what he asked I'll be very grateful, thank you.


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## Aikosu (May 20, 2016)

carmspack said:


> go back to the beginning --
> tell us about the dog at 13 weeks
> tell us how you socialized her, what was her experience with "strangers" -- you said she was very
> social and had lots of fun --- and then the music stopped? she became Big and people dropped off
> ...


At 13 weeks when I first got her and had her in our home she was very anxious and going back and forth for a couple of days and wouldn't listen to us as much. I can only assume she did this because she was in a new environment completely different from where she was already at. I socialized her during the time she was 13 weeks up until she hit 6 months with my friends, neighbors, a few strangers on walks who would ask about her, some dogs/puppies that tend to be walked around my area, and I took her with me to my local petsmart so she could see other dogs as well. At around 5 months I had her spayed. It was then at 6 months her adolescent stage kicked in and her social abilities started to drop off, she would bark and run at people who were walking by our fence and dogs as well. I read about a fear period all pups tend to go through but read that it only lasts 1-2 weeks and it's almost going to be 2 months since this all started to happen. All dogs are different in terms of these kind of things and they'll have them a couple of times during their lives but I never expected it to last this long.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Work under threshold on walks. Avoid taking her out at times where there is a lot of foot traffic (the trigger). Quit worrying about the treats. Use them. Give them only after she has completed a command. (such as moving to you and sitting out of the way while the stimulus goes past and reward during the passing of that stimulus - while she is sitting looking at you). Time helps. So does consistent work with this. 

Now go get your patience back...


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Aikosu said:


> Hi I'm new here and I made an account here in hopes to get help and gain some knowledge on what's (first time owner) wrong with my 7 1/2 month old GSD.
> 
> So I got my GSD who is named Lexi at around 13 weeks old and she was very social and had great fun up until she hit 6 months. At around 6 months it was as if she had literally forgotten all her training and did not respect or listen to anyone in our household at all. I know that pups go through an adolescent stage during this age but I never really knew it was this serious. She does commands whenever she feels like it or when she sees a treat in my hand which I really don't like. I don't want her to do commands only when I have a treat.
> 
> ...


Hmm well yeah ... you got kind of a train wreck going on here. 

But not to worry, the one thing you've done right , is made the decision to "out think your dog!" Which tends to involve reviewing what you're doing and making "adjustments and changes where needed." 

Right now you're hopping on board the "old my dog changed thing???" I'm a member! Rest assured you're not the only member. 


My thing, is to try and help those that can ... "do." And at this point ... your well beyond a "Gentle Paws" "PO" type trainer ... in my view. You'll need a " Balanced Trainer" that believes in telling a dog "NO" and delivering an adversive! They tend to work like this:






And note the use of the "Pet Convincer" to deliver an "aversive" the "PC" ... takes the how to of "corrections" off the table. 


At any rate my "Find a Trainer" bit is in here, :
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7589889-post13.html

The first link, those guys "Jeff and Sean" "maybe able to help you locate a trainer locale to you, if no here can?? And in anycase they are excellent sources of information and continuing Doggy Education on a "Weekly Basics." My "concession" to the masses. 

My thing is "DIY Dog Training" when I had my problems with the old "My Dog Change thing???" I did it myself, I may be a "Conceited, Condescending Ass" but I figured it out ... I do "family pets" dogs behaving badly, if I figured it out, I figure so can others, they just need a "Blueprint 

Problems/Solutions ... I figured it out. When I had my dog's "issues," "Pet Things" I was like ... I don't know what is going on here?? But I got this ... worked out fine. I did it myself ... I figured it out, my take is so can others, they just need a plan.  

Really most of your answers ... are all in those link's! I can help you put the "pieces" together ... it's not that hard and as I stated, you already took the first step *"out think your dog" *... so chill "we got this." 

Welcome aboard.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Aikosu said:


> Thank you for your reply and i'll be sure to do so although I need to ask about how I go on to correct her? I know what you mean by it but how can I correct her without looking like as if I am abusing her? I don't hit her or anything like that as I wouldn't be able to live with myself but how do I go on about doing it? *I put a leash on her while she's outside and I keep a watch out for any passers by so that she doesn't run off to to them and I put her in a sit position and give the leash a slight tug to make her snap out of trying to run for them.* I also forgot to mention that she never goes outside unsupervised as my father or I are always there since we're afraid she might grab and eat something she isn't supposed to. I just want to know how to correct her without looking inhumane to other people since that's what I'm most scared of.
> 
> I'll also take into consideration of having a prong collar and absolutely get a trainer to show me how to use it since I don't want to hurt my dog with it.


How does she respond when you do this?


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## Aikosu (May 20, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> How does she respond when you do this?


Not very well. She would still have her full attention on the people passing by and the dogs as well. I notice her focusing on them as well because usually when she's outside she's panting since I can assume that she's getting hot from all the play/exercise and as soon as she sees someone she stops panting, mouth closed, full attention on whoever is passing by our gate, then she begins to lunge and bark and pull on the leash with her hairs on her back standing.


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## Aikosu (May 20, 2016)

Chip18 said:


> Hmm well yeah ... you got kind of a train wreck going on here.
> 
> But not to worry, the one thing you've done right , is made the decision to "out think your dog!" Which tends to involve reviewing what you're doing and making "adjustments and changes where needed."
> 
> ...


A thousand thanks for these links! They're very informative and I'll be sure to use them to help the situation I'm in.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

LOL ... oh I'm not done yet. 
I like to serve as a "crap filter" for people! Stop "searching" and start doing ... what do serious trainers that work with dogs with as I am want to say "serious freaking issues do??" If it works for them .. it can work for me!

The very fist links I complied (it's in there but kinda buried) so here you go ...
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html 

Your dog has a lot of baggage, most likely he free roams in the home?? Hops on the bed and furniture and pretty much does whatever he wants???

If that's the case it all needs to change, if he went to a board and train ...non of that would be happening. He would be Crate Trained and if he was not being worked or exercised. He would be in "Place" and he would learn to chill, cope with doing "nothing."

Starting over looks like the first link in that thread ... "I just got a rescue ...." the "people thing" is in there also, "Who Pets my Puppy or Dog" worked with my people friendly Boxer and my HA OS WL GSD, I used a muzzle on him for awhile but it never came into play (I showed him how I expected him to behave, no problems,) he is still not a people fan but he does not act like a "tool" and is safe in public. 

And the first video clip, is how I train dogs to walk on a loose leash, very first thing I was shown ... I thought it was crap years later yeah ... I was wrong ... back to basics .. works out fine. These days I use a Slip Lead Leash better and faster still. And a proper correction is a slight tug sideways (get the dog off center not a pull straight back) details are here:
Slip Lead leash - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums


Right now your dog is a bit of a wild child it would seem, doesn't really have a "pattern of listening to you?? Right now everything is kinda like:










That needs to change first. 

Rules Structure and Limitations, starts in the home, no free roaming, Crate or Place only in the home. No bed or furniture privileges, 30 to 90 days at least. 

Yet another long post with more details.
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7837361-post12.html

But ... it all starts with "Place" use a drag leash and start in the home. It is lots of work but none of it is hard. The dog needs to be able to go on a proper structured walk before you can start to work on people and dog issues. And sigh ... my preference is for a SLL, but a "Prong Collar" if fitted and used properly is also a viable option. Same deal slight tug sideways the "Prong amplifies the effect. 

Tylor Muto, Jeff Gellman Solidk9training and Sean Oshea of the Good Dog have clips on using a prong collar properly ... not my thing, so I never created a thread. 

And the fence fighting, yeah that has to stop. Most likely ... that is going to take an E-Collar and a "Behaviour Modification" protocol?? Properly timed ... it's a 3 sec fix! But that's not how you train a dog with an E-Collar. But ... if you work on Rules, Structure and Limitations ... you might able to solve it with a "NO" or a "Down!"

Speaking of which ... 




Next ... E collar nit my thing ..just stuff I know.


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## Aikosu (May 20, 2016)

Chip18 said:


> LOL ... oh I'm not done yet.
> I like to serve as a "crap filter" for people! Stop "searching" and start doing ... what do serious trainers that work with dogs with as I am want to say "serious freaking issues do??" If it works for them .. it can work for me!
> 
> The very fist links I complied (it's in there but kinda buried) so here you go ...
> ...


May I also mention that some of the problems I have tend to also be with my family members at home. They cannot stop spoiling her, allow her to jump all over them, give her treats constantly to get her to stop doing something or stop whining or barking. I do not allow any of this behavior with me but they allow it happening with them. She is also crate trained and not allowed into certain places of the house. Although I don't know how it is when I'm not at home but I feel like my family members are enforcing all this bad behavior when they don't realize it's making me deal with more problems.

They even get mad at me when I tell them to stop and they only keep enforcing this bad behavior and when they tell me to fix it when they don't like it how am I supposed to when they just keep allowing it to happen and don't help me? They tell me she's my dog which is true but if they just keep enforcing her bad behavior then I don't think Lexi will ever change. How can I tell them to just quit what they're doing? Do they need to hear it from a trainer or something because I can't get through to them.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Aikosu said:


> May I also mention that some of the problems I have tend to also be with my family members at home. They cannot stop spoiling her, allow her to jump all over them, give her treats constantly to get her to stop doing something or stop whining or barking. I do not allow any of this behavior with me but they allow it happening with them. She is also crate trained and not allowed into certain places of the house. Although I don't know how it is when I'm not at home but I feel like my family members are enforcing all this bad behavior when they don't realize it's making me deal with more problems.
> 
> They even get mad at me when I tell them to stop and they only keep enforcing this bad behavior and when they tell me to fix it when they don't like it how am I supposed to when they just keep allowing it to happen and don't help me? They tell me she's my dog which is true but if they just keep enforcing her bad behavior then I don't think Lexi will ever change. How can I tell them to just quit what they're doing? Do they need to hear it from a trainer or something because I can't get through to them.


Uh oh ... yeah that's a real problem .. unfortunately that's not a dog problem it's a people problem! 

Too much affection and not enough structure, rules and limits is exactly how "badly behaved" dogs end up in shelters! 

Maybe share this with them, because this is what they are doing.:

Plan B - Kill the Dog!

Print it out and give it to them ... you are trying they are not. Is moving out an option for you or rehoming your dog?? Sorry to bring that up but it could be that bad if they aren't willing to change, their behaviour.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Chip 18 has some excellent ideas.
To add to his comments I will say that the dog has not changed , she is in full out of control display of what she is at her core , which is a nervous anxious dog . That is not a fear period . I fear that is her . Period. 
So when you recognize her limitations and her issues you see that structure and controlled leadership is all the more important as this will provide her with some sense of security.
Allowing her to fence run when only exacerbate the problem . She wins doing it . 
Provide a restful kennel spot , square 10 x 10 or 12 x 12 (rectangular promotes running back and forth).
3 sides of enclosure will block out view by use of wood , tarp , or landscape shrubbery .
If the problem is not fixed then what you see now will only become moreso . Do not wait . This is not a fear period .
Her awareness has changed.


There may have been compounding issues brought on by early spaying . Others can chime in on this one. 
Here is some good reading material on how to calm the mind of the dog that is afraid, excited and reactive. Your dog
seems to tick these three boxes . 
https://www.dogwise.com/ItemDetails.cfm?ID=DTB1301


Your pup pretty much showed you what she was at 13 weeks. You have to work with that . Don't exaggerate your expectations --- but do expect and insist on calm behaviour , receptive to your training. Dog needs consistency.


If family members are sabotaging your efforts then they no longer get access to her. She is crated. She is kenneled in the outdoor yard . She is taken out by you , walked and trained and managed in the house by you, fed by you.


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## Aikosu (May 20, 2016)

Chip18 said:


> Uh oh ... yeah that's a real problem .. unfortunately that's not a dog problem it's a people problem!
> 
> Too much affection and not enough structure, rules and limits is exactly how "badly behaved" dogs end up in shelters!
> 
> ...


My dad is the only one who actually listens to me in regards to this, my sisters and my mother are the ones who don't. They treat her as if she was a human and they're the ones who mostly blame me for her bad behavior. Moving out isn't really an option but rehoming is although I don't really want to go down that path. I'll have to have a sit down with them if that's what it takes and get it in their head that they need to stop what they're doing. I haven't really had serious talks with them about these issues but I'll have to now.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Aikosu said:


> My dad is the only one who actually listens to me in regards to this, my sisters and my mother are the ones who don't. They treat her as if she was a human and they're the ones who mostly blame me for her bad behavior. Moving out isn't really an option but rehoming is although I don't really want to go down that path. I'll have to have a sit down with them if that's what it takes and get it in their head that they need to stop what they're doing. I haven't really had serious talks with them about these issues but I'll have to now.


A good move if you could get dads buy in at the least that would be most helpful! 


And under things to know ... "the fastest and easiest way to train your dog is with the proper use of an E-Collar!" That would be a quote from a former member ... 

It's not my thing but as I say stuff I know. So a couple things on E-Collar one of the links I posted on how to find a trainer is Sean .. 

The Good Dog 
https://thegooddog.net/

I listen to him often here:





I don't post a lot of us work because he just uses to much "stuff" 
for me. But hey it's not about me. 

And Lou Castle (former member  ) his site is here:
Home

And Jeff Gellman has some info on E-Collars. 
Solid K9 Training - Rehabilitation and Family Dog Training

And of course he is on Youtube twice a week:





If time is a factor then E-Collar training would be the call. I have no first hand experiance with them myself, all I know is "Behaviour Modification and finding Working level. 

If you chose that route working with a good trainer would be advisable as would reviewing those sites to better understand the process.

That said "Place, Crate Training (I can't remember if you said he was Crate trained??) and a "No Free Roaming in the house policy would be the next step.

Train calmness into the dog and a good deal of the craziness will at the very least diminish and by training him in "Place" he will form a pattern of listening to you! That alone ...makes everything else easier! 

See the "Place thread" pretty much everything you need to know is in there only thing you need is a leash and bathroom carpets.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Then I've said enough .. for one day.  But yeah as noted by carmspack, the fence running is a problem! The more he does it the worst it gets. I'm assuming thrown outside during the day because he is a PIA indoors??


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## Aikosu (May 20, 2016)

Chip18 said:


> Then I've said enough .. for one day. But yeah as noted by carmspack, the fence running is a problem! The more he does it the worst it gets. I'm assuming thrown outside during the day because he is a PIA indoors??


When Lexi is outside I don't allow her to be out there without any supervision so either my dad or I are out there with her. I tend to look around to see if anyone is coming by so I can get her attention on me and away from the person walking by but it tends to fail since she's off leash and doesn't come when called, her attention is mostly with whomever she's running for. She also never really listens to anyone once outside the house and on the yard, not even treats work. She also tends to run away from us thinking that we're playing a game when we're not. It's kind of difficult to have her exercise and start some training sessions when her focus is on the people and dogs coming by. I have her on leash nowadays when outside now but it doesn't seem to help.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

lots of good new information 


you need to go right back to the beginning to where you had a 13 week old pup (she was very anxious and going back and forth for a couple of days and wouldn't listen to us as much)
You still have the same dog . There hasn't been any change -- no fear period.
The temperament is just not there "full attention on whoever is passing by our gate, then she begins to lunge and bark and pull on the leash with her hairs on her back standing.	"


That is what you have to deal with . 


do you feel that there is any bond between this animal and you ? 
How do you see this?


In the yard , which is outside, where she doesn't listen to anyone , she is supervised .
" fail since she's off leash and doesn't come when called, her attention is mostly with whomever she's running for" .
So you spend the time to be out there every time - results don't change , she doesn't listen , not off leash and not on leash.
So what is the point . 
The dog continues to win .
In her anxious state she reacts to a (non)threat , which goes away, reinforcing her impression on how to make a problem go away.


give her a space to be in which blocks out visual comings and goings of people -- where she can do her business, drink as she needs , and REST.
You can buy kennel kits that need a bit of assembly . 


An anxious dog needs to be CALMED . Until such time they can not be receptive to other messages to help her along to changes in behaviour.


The way it is going you can't be in the yard, you can't walk her , she has no bond or respect in or out of the house.


I would reduce it to contact with one person -- YOU -- who will be calm and a good leader who follows through on requests of the dog . 
If the family is excitable and emotional about the presence of the dog (and her problems) that does not help you one bit .


Do not let this dog progress into this behaviour pattern , anxious-dog survival resort - to fear aggressive BITE .


lots to think about.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

also, I would not allow your mother and sister access to the dog. If necessary, she's crated when you are gone and put a lock on the crate. If they can't get with the program, then they are out of the program.


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## CanadaDry (May 22, 2016)

Sounds like you have a classic case, obedience classes don't work, you have to it yourself...how much exercise does she get? The good news is this can be fixed by changing some things that you are doing. Pent up energy is the #1 cause of problems in dogs. I can't stress this enough. Has she ever ran off the leash at a park? Does she release energy on a regular basis? Walks at least twice a day with multiple park visits a week. Once she gets leveled daily walks with one park trip a week can suffice depending on your dog. The key is to make them feel like they have "a job" and routine as they are working dogs this makes them the happiest out of anything in life. However she is still a puppy so this leads me to believe you arent being a calm assertive leader. The single most important thing I can tell you right now, and if you listen to me you will fix this problem, is to star watching episodes of the dog whisperer with Cesar millan. This is how I learned every thing and I still get compliments to this day of how well behaved and trained my dog is. He specialized his whole life in the most aggressive dogs no one wants and rehabilitates them into normal dogs again. 99% of the time he says its the owner and every single episode it proves correct. You'll see many aggressive dogs become normal just search for dog whisperer episodes and watch the ones where the discriprion says its an aggressive case, you will learn so much valuable info and if you do this now while she is young you will never have a problem again and with how I know GSDs I can bet she will probably make a turnaround in days. Please start watching I promise you he shows you very simply how to save an aggressive dog and have a perfectly happy balanced dog!! Please, I know I am a random stranger on the Internet but I really do care about your dog and I KNOW this will fix it, knowledge really is power. I notice you said you are a college student I was 23 when I got my first dog and it was my 4 year old GSD I have right now so you can totally do this I've had a dog trainer come up to me at the dog park and say I had the best behaved dog there and I got this all from watching the dog whisperer you will be surprised at how simple it actually is and once you get in a routine you won't even notice anything life will be so easy with her!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

CanadaDry , I can not agree.
I have no issue with Cesar Milan . I believe he has some intuitive talents which were exploited for entertainment and ratings .


Your view point is optimistic.
Mine not so much - at least not without immediate, appropriate changes in management -- and then at best you may have a dog that is manageable. I like the idea of a perfectly happy balanced dog . I don't think this dog will achieve that level -- it is not in his or her make-up , including possibly genetics, early upbringing , current environment and management, problems associated with early spay - maybe feeding , brain chemistry.


A behaviourist may say -- unbalanced , introvert , with neurotic behaviour who has found maladaptive outlets to vent 
anxiety .


She is young . She came into that household pretty much the same as she is now . 
Add this book to your library
https://www.dogwise.com/ItemDetails.cfm?ID=DTB1301


Maybe in THIS family there will be little change.
Maybe put into a different environment , different dynamics the dog may be less stressed .


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Dainerra said:


> also, I would not allow your mother and sister access to the dog. If necessary, she's crated when you are gone and put a lock on the crate. If they can't get with the program, then they are out of the program.


LOL, I would be curious as to how well that works out?? I'm not saying your wrong ,just wondering how it would work out ... people thing.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Ok I got a PM form the OP and the good news here, is that she has indeed made a very important first "baby step" with the most basic and fundamental of "Baby Steps!" 


I don't recall the "situation" but .. she delivered perhaps her first "effective" correction with ...wait for it ... a finger point! DOg looked up said Oh?? And stopped whatever it was he was doing! So ... yeah a lot of work to done but not as hopeless as it would have appeared.


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## CanadaDry (May 22, 2016)

carmspack said:


> CanadaDry , I can not agree.
> I have no issue with Cesar Milan . I believe he has some intuitive talents which were exploited for entertainment and ratings .
> 
> 
> ...


There are many misconceptions about Cesar and I know you are in that camp. One is that he "dominates" his dogs which is simply not true. If you read all 4 of his books you would understand this. Also you might be in the camp that believes even the most basic discipline such as time out amount to "torture", these are the same people who think his touches to snap the brain out of its prey drive amount to a hit which is also the furthest thing from the truth. You have to understand he deals only with the most aggressive of dogs which positive reinforcement trainers don't ever deal with these cases. Every case he has rehabilitated a dog that was so aggressive it was about to be put down. He gets results and it works for any dog, it's just that these dog trainers don't want you to learn from him because then guess what..they are out of business! I know you say optimistic, but clearly you have never used his methods (and misinterpret them) so how can you say it's just "optimistic". I promise you if I had that dog I would 100% be able to fix it to a completely happy dog. You just don't know the information that I now and will never have an open mind to it and THATS OK because you use WHAYEVER WORKS FOR YOU and if that's positive reinforcement only then fine! But to say Cesars methods won't work just shows how much you don't understand what he does. I have worked with many dogs in my area too and have had owners send me cards every Christmas because their then aggressive or extremely over energetic dog can now stay at their home and is perfectly balanced. I'm sorry you have so many misconceptions. Your dog can truly be saved and if I had her I would prove it to you. Because you automatically have a biased opinion against his info I fear you will end up getting rid of your dog and that is a shame. What you say could t be further from the truth she can 100% be rehabilitated but just like in EVERY episode YOU are in denial that YOU are the one that needs to change! It's not the dog I promise it's you!!!!! Just watch some episodes with aggressive dogs and have an open mind instead of letting your confirmation bias get in the way. You are literally every owner in those episodes with aggressive dogs and he proves EVERY SINGLE TIME ITS NOT THE DOG IT WHAT YOU ARE DOING he even said 99% of the time it ISNT the dog and he has worked with dogs that have displayed the most crazy aggressive neurotic behavior you can think of! Such a shame............


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Canada dry, your zeal and passion is commendable. I don't believe carmspack is against Cesar Milan personally, or even denies that good can be done with his methods.. What IS difficult (and if I am overstepping carmspack please forgive me) is getting brand new owners to do what he does.. In all the episodes you bring up, many many of the people continue to have difficulties with their dogs, sometimes surrendering them to Cesar because they cannot do what he does and/or there is a genetic flaw that keeps the dog from the necessary changes.. And there are definitely genetic issues at play in some cases.. Yes, they can often be mitigated with appropriate handling but that requires everyone in the family doing what is necessary consistently... A HUGE task... So the fault is not necessarily Cesar, just not everyone can do what he does.. There has to be things that the 'average' person who doesn't dedicate (and it takes immeasurable dedication) their life to changing themselves and how they work with their dog... It is wonderful you can and have changed
. Outstanding! Seriously.. But not everyone can or will commit fully, and still the dog may have inherent flaws that require a skilled and experienced handler... Anyhow, there are camps for each trainer out there, doesn't make the trainer or their followers wrong, just may not be for everyone.. I am pretty sure carmspack is well aware (and is not a positive only) of Cesar's ways and his why's.


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## CanadaDry (May 22, 2016)

Hineni7 said:


> Canada dry, your zeal and passion is commendable. I don't believe carmspack is against Cesar Milan personally, or even denies that good can be done with his methods.. What IS difficult (and if I am overstepping carmspack please forgive me) is getting brand new owners to do what he does.. In all the episodes you bring up, many many of the people continue to have difficulties with their dogs, sometimes surrendering them to Cesar because they cannot do what he does and/or there is a genetic flaw that keeps the dog from the necessary changes.. And there are definitely genetic issues at play in some cases.. Yes, they can often be mitigated with appropriate handling but that requires everyone in the family doing what is necessary consistently... A HUGE task... So the fault is not necessarily Cesar, just not everyone can do what he does.. There has to be things that the 'average' person who doesn't dedicate (and it takes immeasurable dedication) their life to changing themselves and how they work with their dog... It is wonderful you can and have changed
> . Outstanding! Seriously.. But not everyone can or will commit fully, and still the dog may have inherent flaws that require a skilled and experienced handler... Anyhow, there are camps for each trainer out there, doesn't make the trainer or their followers wrong, just may not be for everyone.. I am pretty sure carmspack is well aware (and is not a positive only) of Cesar's ways and his why's.


Sorry if I come off the wrong way I am just really passionate and believe in what he does. I even volunteer at my local shelter and handle their "bad dogs" (which they really aren't) and I have even helped some families who were going to give up their dog and end up actually keeping them! Some were very easy to handle, others took more work, but I still get Christmas cards every year. Granted none of them were human aggressive to the point of attacking a family member but nonetheless still extremely bad cases. Nothing satisfies me more than changing a dog from "unadoptable" to adoptable and him actually finding a home. But just because I read all of his books and watched every single episode to teach myself I believe anyone can do it just by learning the simple principles and making it a routine in your life. You don't have to do all that I did. Yes he handles thousands of dogs over the years and some families still don't change and give up their dogs to him but the vast majority don't that's a fact you can read all about them online. I just know what I have seen with my own eyes and know it really works. A lot of trainers are biased because it takes away from their business. Many of the top dog behaviorists in the county have written along side him in his books l too.


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## misfits (Jan 13, 2011)

WOW! Watch some TV and read a couple of books and ya' know more than somebody who has dedicated their life to the breed?


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## CanadaDry (May 22, 2016)

misfits said:


> WOW! Watch some TV and read a couple of books and ya' know more than somebody who has dedicated their life to the breed?


Um yeah no try again. First I didn't say that and second I volunteer and save dogs lives. What do you do? I said do WHAT WORKS FOR YOU I am not saying it's the only way just because you dedicate you life what matters is results and I get results you can too and THATS FINE why are you getting rubbed the wrong way? Because I have had success without spending thousands of dollars for schools and training? Sorry doesnt make you the be all end all because you did it your whole life what matters is results. My life has been dedicated to this breed so far and will be til the day I die.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

CanadaDry "There are many misconceptions about Cesar and I know you are in that camp" and " Also you might be in the camp that believes even the most basic discipline such as time out amount to "torture"


both comments are very wrong .


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## CanadaDry (May 22, 2016)

carmspack said:


> CanadaDry "There are many misconceptions about Cesar and I know you are in that camp" and " Also you might be in the camp that believes even the most basic discipline such as time out amount to "torture"
> 
> 
> both comments are very wrong .


Sorry I just know that's the #1 reason why people are biased. And he didn't display a few skills for ratings. He started his own dog psychology center in south central LA and took in all of the aggressive neighborhood dogs, Rottweilers, pit bulls, GSDs and former fighting dogs (it want a good neighborhood) and that's how he got his show and built his gigantic psychology center he has today. He literally rehabilitated thousands of dogs. It just shows how little you actually know about him. And I do not mean any offense by that seriously.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

CanadaDry said:


> Sorry I just know that's the #1 reason why people are biased. And he didn't display a few skills for ratings. He started his own dog psychology center in south central LA and took in all of the aggressive neighborhood dogs, Rottweilers, pit bulls, GSDs and former fighting dogs (it want a good neighborhood) and that's how he got his show and built his gigantic psychology center he has today. He literally rehabilitated thousands of dogs. It just shows how little you actually know about him. And I do not mean any offense by that seriously.


You'll find very few experienced dog people who are going to be fans of Cesar. Yes, he has done some great things. And a lot of that is based on his personality and presence. It's not something that most people can duplicate and trying to do those techniques without that persona can get you a trip to the ER.

Then there is the fact that many of his methods are actually extremely stressful for the dog and can make matters worse in the long term. They often seem to work simply because the dog shuts down. Once the cameras are gone, things go back to normal and the dog is often worse than it was before. His methods don't fix the problem. 

Do some of his techniques actually work? yes. but overall there are simply much more effective ways of doing things


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## CanadaDry (May 22, 2016)

Dainerra said:


> You'll find very few experienced dog people who are going to be fans of Cesar. Yes, he has done some great things. And a lot of that is based on his personality and presence. It's not something that most people can duplicate and trying to do those techniques without that persona can get you a trip to the ER.
> 
> Then there is the fact that many of his methods are actually extremely stressful for the dog and can make matters worse in the long term. They often seem to work simply because the dog shuts down. Once the cameras are gone, things go back to normal and the dog is often worse than it was before. His methods don't fix the problem.
> 
> Do some of his techniques actually work? yes. but overall there are simply much more effective ways of doing things


Again, this is further from the truth. I have heard anti Cesar people say this before and if you hear him explain his answer you would understand. He does not make them "shut down" that is a complete and total myth you are talking about when the dog transitions from being the dominant one to finally feeling what it's like to NOT be in that position and become a FOLLOWER. Their natural state as a pack species is to follow. They go through a period for 10-20 minutes where they could even start shaking because the brain is changing the way it's only known, but once that passes THEN it become a perfect "happy go lucky" dog and exactly how you would want it, you need to actually do research on the opposite side instead of taking opinions of people who have an agenda. This is only for those aggressive "red zone" cases and when they actually change. And it only lasts for up to 20 minutes, it's not a "shut down" it's a transition. I can go way more into detail on how wrong that is. Literally all his principles are are exercise, discipline, then affection in that order while displaying a CALM yet assertive state of mind yourself. And discipline is rules, limitations, and boundaries. That's it. It's simple. The most important is being calm yet confident yourself and it takes a while to really understand that. It's all body language. There are many top dog psychologists in the country that write in his very books. That is another myth.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I've seen it in his shows, especially with dogs that are a bit fearful. He does immersion methods, basically overwhelming the dog until it is forced to react. 

When he explains how he handles things, his answers are always "the dog is showing dominance" 
How about the dog with the pigs? That was a case where he bungled everything from the beginning. Instead of using methods that would have kept both dogs and pigs safe and slowly worked with the dog, he pushed the dog past its limits and things went wrong. 

Yes, I said that some of his things work. But exercise and discipline is NOT training. And he doesn't teach people to handle their dogs. Bandaid approahes

The Anti-Cesar Millan / Ian Dunbar's been succeeding for 25 years with lure-reward dog training; how come he's been usurped by the flashy, aggressive TV host? - SFGate


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## CanadaDry (May 22, 2016)

Dainerra said:


> I've seen it in his shows, especially with dogs that are a bit fearful. He does immersion methods, basically overwhelming the dog until it is forced to react.
> 
> When he explains how he handles things, his answers are always "the dog is showing dominance"
> How about the dog with the pigs? That was a case where he bungled everything from the beginning. Instead of using methods that would have kept both dogs and pigs safe and slowly worked with the dog, he pushed the dog past its limits and things went wrong.
> ...


Sigh again another myth. With the fearful dogs he uses repetitions of the thing they are fearful of. For example if they are scared of going up the stairs you are suppose to have established trust with the dog then calmly and confidently take him up the stairs, it takes a bit of coaxing but you must be calm and he will eventually go. The more you do this the more he gets over his fear. Some people are so crazy about their animals they can't bear to see the dog be uncomfortable for 10 seconds to finally have a lifetime of no fear. It's sad really. It's proven that the dog gets over it and lives a perfectly fine life going up and down the stairs with zero "problems down the road" that is spread by those people who think those 10 -20 seconds of uncomfortableness is abuse . There is a section in one of his books about it with other top behaviorists writing in on it too. It absolutely does not cause "problems down the road" this would have been discovered a long long time ago just think about it there is zero evidence of that in fact its the opposite its one method of getting them of their fears.

And the pig thing was ridiculous as it was rightfully dropped by the courts and he was fully exonerated. They were both walking around fine by the end of the episode and the ear healed perfectly. It was started by those same people who spread those myths. Most people know this...

Again this isn't the only method, do whatever works for you as I've said a bunch of times, but it works and is backed up by scientists in the field. I know there are people who disagree but you need to have an open mind and see the results and science for themselves.


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

CanadaDry said:


> Sorry I just know that's the #1 reason why people are biased. And he didn't display a few skills for ratings. He started his own dog psychology center in south central LA and took in all of the aggressive neighborhood dogs, Rottweilers, pit bulls, GSDs and former fighting dogs (it want a good neighborhood) and that's how he got his show and built his gigantic psychology center he has today. He literally rehabilitated thousands of dogs. It just shows how little you actually know about him. And I do not mean any offense by that seriously.


And please tell me what you know about Cesar prior to his show and what he was doing?
Do you know who and where he learned actual dog training from for fact?
Do you have any knowledge of what he was doing in south central LA prior to learning dog training?

Who did Cesar learn to read dogs from?

LOL I can't wait to hear this one as I sit here and watch home video (VHS) of Cesar sitting on the couch while learning to read a dog.... I might even have time waiting for your response to read a few letters written by Cesar with regard to these matters....

I'm all ears!:|


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## CanadaDry (May 22, 2016)

ipopro said:


> And please tell me what you know about Cesar prior to his show and what he was doing?
> Do you know who and where he learned actual dog training from for fact?
> Do you have any knowledge of what he was doing in south central LA prior to learning dog training?
> 
> ...


Ok first get off your high horse and second if you read his books you would see exactly who he worked with. He actually got his big break from Jada Pinkette Smith believe it or not who loved the results so much she bought him English lessons as he knew zero English and got him in touch with some of the best behaviorists in the country where he rehoned his skills. They all write IN his books. It's his own experiences growing up coupled with the professional help he got. All way before the show. He writes all about it in his books half of his first book he goes through thanking all of those people and explaining exactly how he learned what he did. You are just ignorant and didn't even read all of my posts. I know what works for me and what I do I do it for the dogs and no one else so if you don't like it I could honestly care less because quite frankly I do more for them than you ever will.


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

CanadaDry said:


> Ok first get off your high horse and second if you read his book you would see exactly who he worked with. He actually got his big break from Jada Pinkette Smith believe it or not who loved the results so much she bought him English lessons as he knew zero English and got him in touch with some of the best behaviorists in the country where he rehoned his skills. They all write IN his books. It's his own experiences growing up coupled with the professional help he got. He write all about it in his books half of his first book he goes through thanking all of those people and explaining exactly how he learned what he did. You are just ignorant and didn't even read all of my posts. I know what works for me and what I do I do it for the dogs and no one else so if you don't like it I could honestly care less because quite frankly I do more for them than you ever will.


Please answer 1 if not all of the questions... Please I beg you to do so!


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## CanadaDry (May 22, 2016)

ipopro said:


> Please answer 1 if not all of the questions... Please I beg you to do so!


Uhm I just did or are you just ignoring it because you know you got made to look like a fool? He has his own life experiences of growing up on a farm with many dogs then Jada connected him with some of the top behaviorists where he refined his skills, they all said he had a natural talent like no other. It's in his own words in his own book where in his later books they actually write along side him those very experts. Jada Pinkette writes the foreword of his first book. It's actually an amazing story. How many different ways do you need?


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Come on, really? People are allowed their idols, opinions and preferences without being challenged.. And the opposite is true for those that feel differently to those who favor a certain trainer.. This thread was made to help someone else, not rip into those who don't hold similar viewpoints... The OP, anyone for that matter can read and absorb or discard what they think will work for them. There is no need to defend a trainer or bash a trainer...


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

CanadaDry said:


> Uhm I just did or are you just ignoring it because you know you got made to look like a fool? He has his own life experiences of growing up on a farm with many dogs then Jada connected him with some of the top behaviorists where he refined his skills, they all said he had a natural talent like no other. It's in his own words in his own book where in his later books they actually write along side him those very experts. Jada Pinkette writes the foreword of his first book. It's actually an amazing story. How many different ways do you need?


OK I might be slow but here lets try this.

#1. And please tell me what you know about Cesar prior to his show and what he was doing?

#2. Do you know who and where he learned actual dog training from for fact?

#3. Do you have any knowledge of what he was doing in south central LA prior to learning dog training?

#4. Who did Cesar learn to read dogs from?

Please number your answers as I have the questions.. Thank you in advance for your time and consideration!


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## CanadaDry (May 22, 2016)

ipopro said:


> OK I might be slow but here lets try this.
> 
> #1. And please tell me what you know about Cesar prior to his show and what he was doing?
> 
> ...


Lol I don't know how many ways you want me to spell it out for you. Are you not reading my post? The answers are all there. Or are you saying all of what he wrote are lies and that all those experts and behaviorists that wrote in his many books are fake and lying too when they say it in their own words? Lol wow....you can believe whatever you want. All I know are the results I see, as well as the science to back it up. Thanks!


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I love Caesar and yes he has a special gift with dogs and he uses his talent l to help so many dogs that were going to be either euthanized or dumped. He gets paid well (doesn't mean he is a sell out - people usually make a living according to their skill/talent/gift) and does so much good for so many dogs. People go to him when they tried a multitude of failed trainers. Experienced animal people do like Cesar - because someone likes Ceasar does not mean they are not experienced animal people-such BS -some have their feathers ruffled by his success or because he doesn't follow their "rules written in stone". He gets results and saves the dogs most often from death row. Most often I will hear a person/trainer say Ceasar will get the owner injured. I can not figure this out as Ceasar clearly does not expect or want the owners to do what he does this is more then clear and Teaches the owners what they are capable of doing with their dog and it's just not exercise. Many talented people make things look easy doesn't mean anyone can go out and do the same- it is never the intention. I also hear Ceasar make it sounds like it is a quick fix- I have never got that impression at all and it is usually a life changer for the owner. I also never heard of anyone of Cesar clients complain about him or had to go to another trainer.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Oh yeah discovered as a dog walker big deal as many trainers started out the same way or similar. You can't fake a gift. Cesar also has the access to so many talented trainers and behaviorists as one always is growing and learning.


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## CanadaDry (May 22, 2016)

Jenny720 said:


> Oh yeah discovered as a dog walker big deal as many trainers started out the same way or similar. You can't fake a gift. Cesar also has the access to so many talented trainers and behaviorists as one always is growing and learning.


Thank you for actually understand his real ways. 


Yeah and he actually got all of his expert help before the show even happened. Once Jada Pinkette Smith discovered him a lot of celebrities went to him and he used those connections to work with some of the best behaviorists in the country. Daddy (his famous PitBull) used to be the rapper Red Mans dog. This was all before the show. Im just grateful it has helped me foster many dogs from "unadoptable" to finding a forever home. And I think it can help the OP too.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

CanadaDry said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> > Oh yeah discovered as a dog walker big deal as many trainers started out the same way or similar. You can't fake a gift. Cesar also has the access to so many talented trainers and behaviorists as one always is growing and learning.
> ...


Yes I am a big fan and like the fact he caught a break and is helping so many dogs and people. I'm also greatful to you and anyone who helps find homes for dogs that have been deserted or preventing them from being so.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

CanadaDry said:


> Again, this is further from the truth. I have heard anti Cesar people say this before and if you hear him explain his answer you would understand. He does not make them "shut down" that is a complete and total myth you are talking about when the dog transitions from being the dominant one to finally feeling what it's like to NOT be in that position and become a FOLLOWER. *Their natural state as a pack species is to follow.* They go through a period for 10-20 minutes where they could even start shaking because the brain is changing the way it's only known, but once that passes *THEN it become a perfect "happy go lucky" dog and exactly how you would want it,* you need to actually do research on the opposite side instead of taking opinions of people who have an agenda. This is only for those aggressive "red zone" cases and when they actually change. And it only lasts for up to 20 minutes, it's not a "shut down" it's a transition. I can go way more into detail on how wrong that is. Literally all his principles are are exercise, discipline, then affection in that order while displaying a CALM yet assertive state of mind yourself. And discipline is rules, limitations, and boundaries. That's it. It's simple. The most important is being calm yet confident yourself and it takes a while to really understand that. It's all body language. There are many top dog psychologists in the country that write in his very books. That is another myth.


First bold: Who does the feral dog follow?

Second bold: Have you ever read the German Shepherd breed standard?



CanadaDry said:


> Ok first get off your high horse and second if you read his books you would see exactly who he worked with. He actually *got his big break from Jada Pinkette Smith* believe it or not who loved the results so much she bought him English lessons as he knew zero English and *got him in touch with some of the best behaviorists in the country where he rehoned his skills. *They all write IN his books. It's his own experiences growing up coupled with the professional help he got. All way before the show. He writes all about it in his books half of his first book he goes through thanking all of those people and explaining exactly how he learned what he did. You are just ignorant and didn't even read all of my posts. I know what works for me and what I do I do it for the dogs and no one else so if you don't like it I could honestly care less because quite frankly I do more for them than you ever will.


What are Jada Pinkette Smith's qualifications that she was able to determine who the best behaviorists are in the country, and if she knew who they were, why didn't she choose the best for her own dog?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Wow, and all these years I thought he was an illegal alien that was working grooming dogs in LA, when he started working as a trainer. I probably should go and read that book again, LOL!


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

selzer said:


> Wow, and all these years I thought he was an illegal alien that was working grooming dogs in LA, when he started working as a trainer. I probably should go and read that book again, LOL!


My first gut laugh of the weekend! TY

If they only knew.


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

CanadaDry said:


> Thank you for actually understand his real ways.
> 
> 
> Yeah and he actually got all of his expert help before the show even happened. Once Jada Pinkette Smith discovered him a lot of celebrities went to him and he used those connections to work with some of the best behaviorists in the country. Daddy (his famous PitBull) used to be the rapper Red Mans dog. This was all before the show. Im just grateful it has helped me foster many dogs from "unadoptable" to finding a forever home. And I think it can help the OP too.


To fully understand his real ways you must first understand the origin of those ways and who his teacher(s) were and their ways! grasshopper

NOTE: There was a whole lot of stuff going on way before any TV contracts and BOOK deals. I will assure you it wasn't on a farm. But it was in Florida! And a man named Gene England (just a few years experience) if you could even get him to take your call could tell you the story or direct you to the man in Florida that you probably wouldn't want to talk to, as most people don't 80-90% I would wager!



Thanks for answering all my questions... or not!


Best of luck to you and yours always and forever.


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

Jenny720 said:


> I love Caesar and yes he has a special gift with dogs and he uses his talent l to help so many dogs that were going to be either euthanized or dumped. He gets paid well (doesn't mean he is a sell out - people usually make a living according to their skill/talent/gift) and does so much good for so many dogs. People go to him when they tried a multitude of failed trainers. Experienced animal people do like Cesar - because someone likes Ceasar does not mean they are not experienced animal people-such BS -some have their feathers ruffled by his success or because he doesn't follow their "rules written in stone". He gets results and saves the dogs most often from death row. Most often I will hear a person/trainer say Ceasar will get the owner injured. I can not figure this out as Ceasar clearly does not expect or want the owners to do what he does this is more then clear and Teaches the owners what they are capable of doing with their dog and it's just not exercise. Many talented people make things look easy doesn't mean anyone can go out and do the same- it is never the intention. I also hear Ceasar make it sounds like it is a quick fix- I have never got that impression at all and it is usually a life changer for the owner. I also never heard of anyone of Cesar clients complain about him or had to go to another trainer.


Did you ever hear of the ---- Let me keep your dog for thirty days of the best possible training your dog could ever get? And after 30 days at the behavioral professional center or in the "Pack" ----Ohhhhh I'll give you one of my dogs from my pack I can't fix your dog... Not a happy customer I assure you. It's their dog for gawd sake...

That's just one example, I know, but please listen to me on this one thing---- there are unhappy customers in every business unfortunately.

"you can please some of the people some of the time but you can't please all of the people all of the time" <<< I didn't just make that up today!


So what do ya do? Well in that world ya scream CUT edit the film and roll on..

Dude has some skill I will not lie But Plzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..

OK I'm done...


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Did you ever hear of the ---- Let me keep your dog for thirty days of the best possible training your dog could ever get? And after 30 days at the behavioral professional center or in the "Pack" ----Ohhhhh I'll give you one of my dogs from my pack I can't fix your dog... Not a happy customer I assure you. It's their dog for gawd sake

Just a thought here... Proof that training is not always effective when it is a genetic problem... Only well versed people can handle those cases.. As to Cesar Millan in those cases, it was always the clients choice and some chose to keep their dog.. Others preferred the exchange because they couldn't do handle the problems with their dog.... 

I personally believe you can learn alot from anyone.. Even if it is what not to do or what you never want to try... It requires using our minds and formulating our own opinions due to our beliefs and experiences.. Not because a TV show, the Internet or some trainer from petsmart or some other place says to do something... Common sense is lacking in the world today and can cause alot of problems...


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

Hineni7 said:


> Did you ever hear of the ---- Let me keep your dog for thirty days of the best possible training your dog could ever get? And after 30 days at the behavioral professional center or in the "Pack" ----Ohhhhh I'll give you one of my dogs from my pack I can't fix your dog... Not a happy customer I assure you. It's their dog for gawd sake
> 
> Just a thought here... Proof that training is not always effective when it is a genetic problem... Only well versed people can handle those cases.. As to Cesar Millan in those cases, it was always the clients choice and some chose to keep their dog.. Others preferred the exchange because they couldn't do handle the problems with their dog....
> 
> I personally believe you can learn alot from anyone.. Even if it is what not to do or what you never want to try... It requires using our minds and formulating our own opinions due to our beliefs and experiences.. Not because a TV show, the Internet or some trainer from petsmart or some other place says to do something... Common sense is lacking in the world today and can cause a lot of problems...


I thought you were going to pick back up on that DNA thingy, pert quickly (as said in the south). EXCELLLLLLLEEENNNNT POINT! You have and con't to make it so well. Amazing! TY so much for sharing this with all. Some people may now understand why I am so concerned with the whole rescue and release thingy. ie.... here take this dog, I have no idea about it's genetics but make sure you do the right thing for the dog... Hello!

My point was also directed mainly at the comment that said something like "I have never seen a unhappy customer from Cesars" UH huh and well um Jada let me stop... :grin2:


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

ipopro said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> > I love Caesar and yes he has a special gift with dogs and he uses his talent l to help so many dogs that were going to be either euthanized or dumped. He gets paid well (doesn't mean he is a sell out - people usually make a living according to their skill/talent/gift) and does so much good for so many dogs. People go to him when they tried a multitude of failed trainers. Experienced animal people do like Cesar - because someone likes Ceasar does not mean they are not experienced animal people-such BS -some have their feathers ruffled by his success or because he doesn't follow their "rules written in stone". He gets results and saves the dogs most often from death row. Most often I will hear a person/trainer say Ceasar will get the owner injured. I can not figure this out as Ceasar clearly does not expect or want the owners to do what he does this is more then clear and Teaches the owners what they are capable of doing with their dog and it's just not exercise. Many talented people make things look easy doesn't mean anyone can go out and do the same- it is never the intention. I also hear Ceasar make it sounds like it is a quick fix- I have never got that impression at all and it is usually a life changer for the owner. I also never heard of anyone of Cesar clients complain about him or had to go to another trainer.
> ...


We have two businesses and know all about it. Aww Ceasar offered to take a clients dog and give them one of his own. I do recall thisz Again what a smart man and a good business sense as he is helping with an offer that would be best for their dog then any other option. As I assuming he feels the client is incapable of following through on the training or situation is Ill suited. Some may see that how ever they want. Aah well. If you don't like him don't watch the showwwwwwwwwww


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Friends, Forum members , countrymen , lend me your ears,
I do not come to bury Caesar, nor to praise him

taking liberty with a little bit of Shakespeare -


the dogs that Cesar dealt with , boy I really really do not want to dwell on him, (trying 
to bring it back to the OP's dog) were probably OK dogs who deteriorated in behaviour
because of bad , indulgent, spoiled , no limits management.

The OP's dog as I have said many times came into the house with a temperament problem evident .
That is DNA -- (plus) . Both parents may have been nut bars . 
There are periods were a pup is impressionable to human contact and must have quality and quantity contact.
Those are well documented in Fuller and Scott , Bar Harbor reports , and Pfaffenberger. If that quality 
pleasant contact was not provided during the critical time then the dog will not have trust, bond, or integrate into a mutually useful , healthy/happy human-dog relationship.

Both these conditions, DNA/genetics , early life experience , could be responsible for this dog's problems.
Repeat -- he/she came into the house at 13 weeks , with temperament and social problems.

The folks at Bar Harbor couldn't rehab those dogs -- Cesar wouldn't be able to either . They would end up at the "Acres"
running with the other dogs . That isn't rehabbed .


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## CanadaDry (May 22, 2016)

ipopro said:


> To fully understand his real ways you must first understand the origin of those ways and who his teacher(s) were and their ways! grasshopper
> 
> NOTE: There was a whole lot of stuff going on way before any TV contracts and BOOK deals. I will assure you it wasn't on a farm. But it was in Florida! And a man named Gene England (just a few years experience) if you could even get him to take your call could tell you the story or direct you to the man in Florida that you probably wouldn't want to talk to, as most people don't 80-90% I would wager!
> 
> ...



Ahhh now it make sense. It's all a grand conspiracy by Cesar to lie for what reason? Lol and, since you KEEP ignoring this one simple fact that proves you wrong, those very EXPERTS and TOP behaviorists all weighed in on his book how they all worked together before the show and how he refined his skills. Apparently for you one random guy who takes phone calls says something different and he's the one who is telling the truth? Who, oh idk maybe possibly has an agenda against Cesar just like those people who filed those bogus animal cruelty charges? You believe yet another myth propagated by the anti Cesar crowd this is all 7-8 years old and long proven false. 

The whole lot of stuff before the show was his Dog Psychology Center in south central unless you are saying all of those many celebrities and neighborhood people are lying too about the years he spent there and the experts are lying about him working with him before the show or LA times article ever even happened? That article got him the show once they saw what he was doing.

Are you saying all those top experts and behaviorists purposely lied about Cesars past and put their entire credibility on the line just because? Along with Cesar himself to make some grand story up? Riiight now it makes sense.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

CanadaDry said:


> Ahhh now it make sense. It's all a grand conspiracy by Cesar to lie for what reason? Lol and, since you KEEP ignoring this one simple fact that proves you wrong, those very EXPERTS and TOP behaviorists all weighed in on his book how they all worked together before the show and how he refined his skills. Apparently for you one random guy who takes phone calls says something different and he's the one who is telling the truth? Who, oh idk maybe possibly has an agenda against Cesar just like those people who filed those bogus animal cruelty charges?
> 
> Are you saying all those top experts and behaviorists purposely lied about Cesars past and put their entire credibility on the line just because? Along with Cesar himself to make some grand story up? Riiight now it makes sense.


What he's saying is that Cesar Millan went to Florida to train with a guy named Steve Leigh who learned from a guy named Gene England. Look both of them up and what you'll see is that what he picked up from them probably has very little resemblance to what you are thinking of as top experts and behaviorists would agree with or anything that would translate well to the premise of his show.


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## CanadaDry (May 22, 2016)

carmspack said:


> The folks at Bar Harbor couldn't rehab those dogs -- Cesar wouldn't be able to either . They would end up at the "Acres"
> running with the other dogs . That isn't rehabbed .


So a guy with 10k forum posts on the Internet and he acts like he is some huge expert and knows better than what much of science says? Sorry many of the things he has said in other posts is also wrong. You take any real behaviorist and I promise you they will find flaws in what he is saying.

You say their parents MAY have been nut bars, yet you have no idea. DNA and genetics as the cause would present a much worse case then he describes. Are you saying no puppy that has ever been brought home has had behavioral problems? And that they never get better? Again, every expert will tell you, the very LAST thing you should say is it is a DNA problem until YOUVE TRIED EVERYTHING ELSE. It is actually RARE and I highly doubt the OP does unless you can prove for 100% certain so for you to automatically say that because he didn't respond to your methods is extremely harmful and can result in getting the dog PUT DOWN if the OP takes your word for everything.

I am not just making this up, this is all science and I dedicate my life to dogs as well. 

The folks at Far Harbor are the be all end all? Ok let me say this, almost EVERY SINGLE EPISODE on the dog whisperer he works with people who have taken their dogs to MANY place like Far Harbor (not just one place, a few different) and NONE of them could help and they ALL gave up on them. The first 10 minutes of every episode has the families describe their situation and I can't tell you how many of them talk about Far Harbor and places like that. GUESS WHAT HAPPENES WHEN HE GETS A HOLD OF THEM, THEY GET FULLY REHABILITATED as proof by the thousands of dogs he has saved and HUNDREDS of happy owners AFTER THE SHOW to this day.

By your first line (BOY I really really don't want to dwell on him) hmm is it maybe possible that you are just very biased against him? This is a lesson for life, not everyone is always right not every "expert" is correct and until people think objectively and see things for yourself you will never know. You can't just simple take some biased persons opinion, what 10k posts and a lot of reading makes him the only source of possible knowledge? Sure his ways work, but there are other ways that work even better and have a long proven track record backed by science. I just can't believe how laughable it is because the folks at Far Harbor you think it's automatic yet EVERY person who has been on the show are literally at their last legs after trying every Far Harbor type place out there that is why he selects them because it is literally their last shot before the dog gets put down and guess what 99% of them TO THIS DAY after 10 seasons and counting STILL ate living good lives with those dogs. But as they say, ignorance is truly bliss, if you don't agree with him fine but what you are saying just simply isn't true.


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## CanadaDry (May 22, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> What he's saying is that Cesar Millan went to Florida to train with a guy named Steve Leigh who learned from a guy named Gene England. Look both of them up and what you'll see is that what he picked up from them probably has very little resemblance to what you are thinking of as top experts and behaviorists would agree with or anything that would translate well to the premise of his show.


What I am saying is that is false he spent his whole life in LA and that guy is not in any of his books so even if he knew that man he clearly didn't influence him, I don't know why you keep ignoring what I am saying and believe the myths with literally zero facts. ARE YOU SAYING ALL OF THOSE TOP INFLUENTIAL EXPERTS IN THE COUNTRY WHO WROTE HOW THEY WORKED AND INFLUENCED CESAR BEFORE HE GOT THE SHOW ARE LYING? Again, he never lived in Florida and is a myth. You just don't like him, how about yo answer what I said for once instead of just replying with a false story? 

What he does works for every dog unless it is a rare, rare, genetic problem. 99% are able to be rehablitated and live perfectly fine happy go lucky normal dog lives. The fact that carmspack says "most don't stay that way" and "it's a few tricks for ratings" is the biggest BS I ever heard as any objective thinker can simply do research and see that the vast majority of owners he's worked with report life long happiness. Not to mention the many many more he does away from the show.

I am only doing this because I know it can help the OP. Some people believe in positive reinforcement ONLY and believe this should be the ONLY way so they try to discredit Cesar at every turn. I am not naive I have done my objective research on both sides and I know what works when all of those Far Harbor people say a dog is "unhelpable"


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Ok, I was just trying to clarify something, not wad you up even tighter. Lol. For the record I didn't say or imply anything about CM. I just don't like the word dominance in regards to everything, but that doesn't help the op at all.


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## CanadaDry (May 22, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> What he's saying is that Cesar Millan went to Florida to train with a guy named Steve Leigh who learned from a guy named Gene England. Look both of them up and what you'll see is that what he picked up from them probably has very little resemblance to what you are thinking of as top experts and behaviorists would agree with or anything that would translate well to the premise of his show.


What you don't understand is some positive reinforcement trainers think their way is the best way and should only be practiced so they speak out against his way while on the OTHER HAND many OTHER behaviorists say what he is doing is the best way and it is actually NOT what Steve Leigh does that is a complete misconception. You don't get that all of these misconceptions started when his show first came out by those people who think getting a dog over their fear is abuse and it's an "immersion method" which is false and has long been proven false. He doesn't do what you think he does it isn't "domination" quote the opposite actually being a "pack leader" doesn't mean Steve Leigh dominance. That is why with all of his newer and recent books you have all of these top experts weighing in because they don't want him to be painted in this light that you are misconstruing him to be. They fully understand what he really does and try to help other people understand that too. Not to mention they are the ones he learned from.


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## CanadaDry (May 22, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> Ok, I was just trying to clarify something, not wad you up even tighter. Lol. For the record I didn't say or imply anything about CM. I just don't like the word dominance in regards to everything, but that doesn't help the op at all.


Sorry just when it comes to a dogs life on the line I get very passionate. That he "dominates" his dog is the biggest misconception and furthest from the truth. He says that would only make things worse. That is why all of those behaviorists in his books had to explain it to everyone what he really does. He wanted other credible people to explain what he does since whenever he explained it himself people viewed it as biased.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Calm down. I'm just talking about the word, how its become a catch phrase for every time a dog doesn't sit.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Cesar Millan's adventures in FL is a story I have never heard. I'd like to hear the rest if there is any more to it than what was already said on this thread. Anybody can PM me if you'd rather not keep it going here.

CanadaDry, please take a breath and maybe re read some earlier posts...I think you may have misunderstood what Carmen was saying....it didn't sound to me like she was even really bashing cesar? And maybe go read the carmspack website...I am *pretty* sure Carmen is not just an phony internet expert

I would like to know who those top behaviorists were who endorsed Cesar...just for my own curiosity. I have never bought one of his books and never will.


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## CanadaDry (May 22, 2016)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Cesar Millan's adventures in FL is a story I have never heard. I'd like to hear the rest if there is any more to it than what was already said on this thread. Anybody can PM me if you'd rather not keep it going here.
> 
> CanadaDry, please take a breath and maybe re read some earlier posts...I think you may have misunderstood what Carmen was saying....it didn't sound to me like she was even really bashing cesar? And maybe go read the carmspack website...I am *pretty* sure Carmen is not just an phony internet expert
> 
> I would like to know who those top behaviorists were who endorsed Cesar...just for my own curiosity. I have never bought one of his books and never will.


Sorry the way it came off to me was like it was automatically written off without truly understanding when I know it works not only from the research but the fact I have fostered many dogs who were deemed too troublesome to actually end up in forever homes and I have 4 in my current pack. Not to mention the thousands of dogs he's saved and people he's helped.

More important I truly believe it can save OPs dog.

The foreword of his first book was written by the president of the International Association of Canine Professionals, and in later books Joel Silverman, Ian Dunbar, Kirk Turner, and Mark Harden as well as others I'll have to get my other books out.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

good morning CanadaDry -- I with the 10K posts am a she .
"So a guy with 10k forum posts on the Internet and he acts like he is some huge expert and knows better than what much of science says? Sorry many of the things he has said in other posts is also wrong. You take any real behaviorist and I promise you they will find flaws in what he is saying."


So what does science say?
I use science in my breeding practices and in training .
Cesar Milan is not wrong . He says himself that he works with the people , not the dogs. Management problems
which can be rectified .
Sometimes there are dogs , for whatever reason, are just wired wrong . 
When Science shows that whirling and tail chasing might have been developed
by prolonged isolation periods during a critical time in those first 8 to 9 weeks,
changing brain biochemistry -- then that will be resistant to change by taking the
dog for an energy draining walk or being a calm and assertive owner , which you
should be no matter what. 

The show does not deal with these dogs . His subjects were pre-selected . 
It is a SHOW . 
I do feel for Cesar who was used, a victim of his own success, as star-power material . In the end , according to
his own admission during an interview, he said he felt robbed , (my words) as he got very little
of the vast sums that were made on his back. 

You can respect his talent , get caught up with his charm, without becoming a slavish disciple , a cult member of some poor guy elevated to guru status.


Pick and choose what works.
He is not a behaviourist . Does not claim to be one. May not be able to "train" where you connect the dots and get
a set of behaviours which can be judged against a standard , whether that be an AKC/CKC basic CD CDX UD , or a tracking title, or IPO or .... or.
He fixes broken dog-human relationships


Do you know what the purpose of the Bar Harbor studies were ? 

Dog Behaviour - Fuller and Scott
New Knowledge - Pfaffenberger
several titles Karen Pryor
Konrad Lorenz ** his student Trumler,
Michael Fox , 
the set of S R Lindsay and many more contemporary writers - Dunbar as example
these are your behaviourists.
Not so much "Cindy or Sam " dog-walkers who hang up the shingle
stamp "behaviourist" onto their business card. We sure have seen some
ridiculous advice given to forum members who hired a "behaviourist"
from this calibre .


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## CanadaDry (May 22, 2016)

carmspack said:


> good morning CanadaDry -- I with the 10K posts am a she .
> "So a guy with 10k forum posts on the Internet and he acts like he is some huge expert and knows better than what much of science says? Sorry many of the things he has said in other posts is also wrong. You take any real behaviorist and I promise you they will find flaws in what he is saying."
> 
> 
> ...


What you are referring to in that interview is when he didn't know anything about business coming to the USA and got cheated out of his contracts with the business he started on the side, not with the show, his side business partners actually made it so that he owned nothing. It was a long legal struggle but he got some of it back. Again you are miscronstruing it. The fact that you think he is some half made up reality star "trainer" where is success is because it "fools" people is laughable.

He is most definitely a behaviorist and he absolutely claims to be. He reads animal behavior and works to correct it. He says he ISNT a trainer. Again, any biased person won't research enough into the other side. It's called confirmation bias. If you can't think objectively then you won't find out. Here are the facts: he has helped more dogs and has had long last success with more dogs that you ever will. That's not a knock on you, he was in a position to do so and he did instead of just sitting back and collecting the money. but it appears you think he is just some celebrity dog TRAINER which again any objective thinker knows that is further from the truth. What he does has a long lasting positive rehabilitation effect on dogs with behavioral and psychological problems backed up by science that is readily available. He has used his star power to help EVEN MORE dogs as that is literally all he does at his Dog Pychology Center. You can hate that he is on TV and whatever but again the facts are the facts. People have their biases for whatever reason and yes they can be professional positive reiforcent trainers too. Doesn't make you right and him wrong in any way, just don't twist the facts. You are saying it is just a fluffed up show which couldn't be more wrong. It is very easy to see this for yourself if you choose to do so. Sorry not every Internet expert is correct in 100% of the things they say or believe.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"a DNA problem until YOUVE TRIED EVERYTHING ELSE. It is actually RARE and I highly doubt the OP does unless you can prove for 100% certain so for you to automatically say that because he didn't respond to your methods is extremely harmful and can result in getting the dog PUT DOWN if the OP takes your word for everything."


actually it isn't rare at all. Genetics is the foundation for everything because we as humans interfere with natural selection (street dog love) and choose for traits -- extremes usually , ending up with frantic dogs that can't cap and overload, dogs that are all prey , dogs that are marshmallows with no drive .
If the OP understands that what she is dealing with is inherent to the dog , whether by genetics or poor early socialization during critical time frames then she can make plans to effectively manage the dog to give it the best chance for a SAVE ,
stress-reduced life. 
Who said to put the dog down ?


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## CanadaDry (May 22, 2016)

carmspack said:


> "a DNA problem until YOUVE TRIED EVERYTHING ELSE. It is actually RARE and I highly doubt the OP does unless you can prove for 100% certain so for you to automatically say that because he didn't respond to your methods is extremely harmful and can result in getting the dog PUT DOWN if the OP takes your word for everything."
> 
> 
> actually it isn't rare at all. Genetics is the foundation for everything because we as humans interfere with natural selection (street dog love) and choose for traits -- extremes usually , ending up with frantic dogs that can't cap and overload, dogs that are all prey , dogs that are marshmallows with no drive .
> ...


You said "their parents MAY be nut jobs" my point is you are assuming that it has inherent DNA problems with out actually proving it. This is what happens every time, a bunch of people like you say the same thing, and then as their last and final resort they go to Cesar and he corrects the problem 99% of the time. The most extreme cases can take months of rehabilitation at his psychology center, but most are corrected by the owner changing its ways. You can see all of these cases for yourself and read all about what owners say afterwards even years down the line 99% of the time. In his own words with the actual evidence to back it up along with the science. I'm sure if even 20% of the thousands of dogs and people he helped had any lasting issues this would have been figured out a decade ago. That's how long he's been doing this and it's not even that revolutionary other people have done what he does too it's just getting the information out there to the owners.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"the dog whisperer he works with people who have taken their dogs to MANY place like Far Harbor (not just one place, a few different) and NONE of them could help and they ALL gave up on them"


ohdear great deities ---- no one can take their dog to Bar Harbor , nor are the experts some privileged set of people bobbing around in their yachts off the coast of beautiful Maine.
You need to get your hands on some classic literature


"I can't tell you how many of them talk about Far Harbor and places like that."
Correcto-mundo you can not. How many? Answer ZILCH --- Bar Harbor research
involved ethology - the dissection and creation of behaviour - general zoology and this
specialized study by Scott and Fuller.


My mistake , in a previous post I completely forgot to include Humphrey and Warner !! more reading for your.
As to Cesar I am not biased . I am balanced. 
answer to this "The fact that carmspack says "most don't stay that way" 
He doesn't change the dog , he recommends changes in the dynamics between the people and the dog .
People are lazy . THEY will revert to their old habits and so will the dog.
It's human nature. Path of least resistance.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

DUNBAR endorsed Milan? Thats news to me, I have to find it and read it.

OP you might check out Grisha Stewart BAT to help your dog


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Oh okay. Quoting Dunbar from his article "my contribution to cesar millan's new book",

"I have always thought that I could do so much more for dogs by engaging those who use dog training techniques of which I strongky disapprove, rather than simply preaching to the choir"

"Obviously, any book with Cesar's name on it is destined to be a best seller, no matter what the content....why not let reward based training techniques get the exposure"

More in the article, if anyone cares to google it.


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

CanadaDry said:


> Ahhh now it make sense. It's all a grand conspiracy by Cesar to lie for what reason? Lol and, since you KEEP ignoring this one simple fact that proves you wrong, those very EXPERTS and TOP behaviorists all weighed in on his book how they all worked together before the show and how he refined his skills. Apparently for you one random guy who takes phone calls says something different and he's the one who is telling the truth? Who, oh idk maybe possibly has an agenda against Cesar just like those people who filed those bogus animal cruelty charges? You believe yet another myth propagated by the anti Cesar crowd this is all 7-8 years old and long proven false.
> 
> The whole lot of stuff before the show was his Dog Psychology Center in south central unless you are saying all of those many celebrities and neighborhood people are lying too about the years he spent there and the experts are lying about him working with him before the show or LA times article ever even happened? That article got him the show once they saw what he was doing.
> 
> Are you saying all those top experts and behaviorists purposely lied about Cesars past and put their entire credibility on the line just because? Along with Cesar himself to make some grand story up? Riiight now it makes sense.


Let's do this, YOU my friend have told us everything you know to be true about Cesar for fact because you watched the show and read the books.

I have told you what I know to be fact because I was there when Cesar was being trained by certain individuals none of which you even knew or know exist(ed) and possibly even doubt that they exist today when people on this board know that they do exist (as stated previously by members AND are highly respected by some and like Cesar not by others) and a simple internet search proves that true from reputable websites not BS. I'm talking about people whom have been well respected in the industry since Cesar was in diapers so that's a pretty long time.

If I am wrong (lying) in what I am saying, I will pay you $10,000.00 Ten Thousand US dollars and have written it here for all to witness (documented) in black and white.

If I am correct in what I am saying, you owe an apology in writing and it must state that you are a complete idiot in your apology for acting the way you have towards people here! You will then give a donation of $2,000.00 to a charity of my choice and do 100 volunteer hours to the charity of my choice.

NOW THAT'S TEN THOUSAND DOLLARS CASH MONEY VS. YOU WRITE ON YOUR OWN ACCOUNT HERE IN THIS FORUM "I ______________ AM A COMPLETE IDIOT" and volunteer at a charity (which according to you, you already do anyway so no big deal)

Do you honestly think I would put my hard earned money up if I did not know this to be true and have the evidence to prove it?

Documented video footage as evidence NOT A PERSON SAID OR CESAR WROTE>>>> DOCUMENTED VIDEO FOOTAGE (CESAR) being trained not only to read a dog but many things.

CESAR LEARNED TO READ A DOG FROM _________ REMEMBER?
CESAR WAS A DOG FIGHTER IN S.C. L.A.
CESAR PAID THESE PEOPLE TO COME OUT TO L.A. AND TEACH, NOT 1 BUT MANY SEMINARS BECAUSE HE HAD NO CLUE HOW TO DO IT

I do however think that if you do not put your money and energy where your MOUTH is you are just another of the many rambling fools that come and go from here and you just enjoy spouting off "WHAT YOU KNOW TO BE TRUE" LOL PLZZZZZZZZZZ!

$10,000.00 come and get it MY FRIEND!

IT'S VERY OBVIOUS TO ME AT THIS POINT THAT IF YOU BELIEVE THE COLOR AS (WE ALL KNOW TO BE BLUE) IS YELLOW. NO MATTER HOW MANY PEOPLE TELL YOU THAT IT IS BLUE YOU WILL STILL BELIEVE IT IS YELLOW.

The only way to break that is to put your money where your mouth is and I just did! NOW will you?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

"Contact CESAR MILLAN ("The Dog Whisperer") in Los Angeles. His phone number is easily available on Google. I first met Cesar at one of my Mesa, AZ, table training seminars, in 1994. Following that, Cesar came to Florida (twice), both times spending 10 days, learning more about using tables - for bitework. Cesar went back to LA and built several sets of tables. In 1995, Cesar brought me out to Los Angeles to conduct a table training seminar for him, his staff, and several other local trainers. He repeated this in 1996 for another table seminar. Ask Cesar how many dogs were "thrown off tables to strangle".
http://www.sl-prokeys.com/axs/ax.pl?/wffcw/visual/cm-4.jpg

http://www.sl-prokeys.com/axs/ax.pl?/wffcw/visual/cm-4.jpg 

These pictures show Cesar, who has had his own television program, "The Dog Whisperer", running constantly for years. He has been nominated for Emmy awards. 

Unlike the Internet Disease, Voodoo Louie Castle, Cesar has established himself as a dog trainer, and is known around the world. Voodoo Louie Castle has established himself as a liar. 

Cesar does not write internet messages by the thousand. Voodoo Louie Castle writes messages by the thousand. Cesar trains dogs. Voodoo Louie Castle does not train dogs.

As you can see, Cesar is using a TABLE for bite training. These photographs are dated 1995 on the back. 

I'm sorry I no longer have the equipment to put live videos in this section as well. I have some videos of Cesar, using tables, doing bitework, at my training school, and in Los Angeles.

Also shown in these pictures is Dr. Thomas Brown, the man who first introduced me to the world of Schutzhund, in 1976. For several years, Dr. Brown was my teacher and mentor."

Thats from this webpage:

Voodoo Guru


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"Here are the facts: he has helped more dogs and has had long last success with more dogs that you ever will."
So? That is not my endeavour.
I want to ensure that breeding decisions are made with some intelligence and that total package, nutrition, environment , genetics are applied to litters so that new owners don't have to contend with issues and dogs aren't burdened with life impacting problems .
I don't hate that he is on TV . That is his burden. He is made to perform in a formatted way.
Other decent , intuitively talented people were pushed into a mockable joke , Barbara Woodhouse comes to mind.
You are in the GTA?
You know that he came to Toronto 4 or 5 years ago?
Members of one of the local agility clubs got a busload of excited members together to see the show - which was not his best If I recall he didn't meet with what they expected.
The show needed subject dogs . They were not random. Pre-selected by a crew of the producers handlers.


"but most are corrected by the owner changing its ways" lol "and it's not even that revolutionary other people have done what he does too it's just getting the information out there to the owners"


that is the gist of it --- there is nothing new in what he puts out there .
As a culture we have lost common sense and understanding of companion animals . Too humanized, too disneyfied .
That is what he peddles , common sense .


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

My Contribution to Cesar Millan's New Book | Dog Star Daily


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Sigh. I feel for the OP. They've gotten lost in the great "expert" trashing, member bashing.... 

I'd like to know how the OP's coming with their dog.

Not so much whatcha all think about television programs and personalities.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Prime example - new thread - which deserves attention --
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-puppy-stuff/645673-fearful-12-week-old-gsp-forever.html
unstable ? introvert ? perfect storm of genetics and environment ?
Sometimes dogs JUST ARE --


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

Steve Strom said:


> "Contact CESAR MILLAN ("The Dog Whisperer") in Los Angeles. His phone number is easily available on Google. I first met Cesar at one of my Mesa, AZ, table training seminars, in 1994. Following that, Cesar came to Florida (twice), both times spending 10 days, learning more about using tables - for bitework. Cesar went back to LA and built several sets of tables. In 1995, Cesar brought me out to Los Angeles to conduct a table training seminar for him, his staff, and several other local trainers. He repeated this in 1996 for another table seminar. Ask Cesar how many dogs were "thrown off tables to strangle".
> http://www.sl-prokeys.com/axs/ax.pl?/wffcw/visual/cm-4.jpg
> 
> http://www.sl-prokeys.com/axs/ax.pl?/wffcw/visual/cm-4.jpg
> ...



OMG OMG OMG OMG,

Steve don't give it away for free. I was going to split it with you brother..............

I was shocked when you first commented on here and was suspicious, I then said noooooooo It can't be.... You just confirmed...

I LOVE YOU BROTHER and MISS YOU VERY MUCH!

You are in my heart and mind daily. Helen says hello. Please tell Kent that crazy CHEROKEE Indian (Navy Seal) brother of mine hello!

I hope you enjoyed the eggs I left for you on the front steps...

I am coming to see you soon and might just get you to come back to the farm with us and we go see Gene after....

(((((((BIG HUG)))))))


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Sorry, I'm not him. I just know who he is, and Gene England is pretty well known.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Ya could have just blagged your way to one **** of a barbecue.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I don't know, I am not even a part of this one.

The information being presented by many is interesting. Sometimes these things do go off topic, but as long as things are kept respectful, maybe the thread should be allowed to run its course. That is the way the most interesting and informative of threads begin, by going off topic.

The truth of the matter is that if this goes back on topic, the new topic rarely gets resurrected as a new thread much to the detriment of the knowledge being imparted by many right now. It would be a shame not to share this information.


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## misfits (Jan 13, 2011)

Just in case the OP is still around, here's what we did for my genetically fearful dog. First, muzzle trained him so that I could relax, and not constantly have to be vigilant.Then, my trainer had me study Grisha Stewart's book on B.A.T. (which has already been mentioned)Then, in concert with a couple of my trainer's stable dogs, had him observe and help me with my timing, etc. Now, my dog will never be stable, but we have got him to the point we're doing scent-work, and he's doing pretty well in some outdoor obedience claasses.........just my experience.....


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I don't know, I am not even a part of this one.
> 
> The information being presented by many is interesting. Sometimes these things do go off topic, but as long as things are kept respectful, maybe the thread should be allowed to run its course. That is the way the most interesting and informative of threads begin, by going off topic.
> 
> The truth of the matter is that if this goes back on topic, the new topic rarely gets resurrected as a new thread much to the detriment of the knowledge being imparted by many right now. It would be a shame not to share this information.



People don't want to know the truth! Like I said if I am looking at a blue car and all the people standing around are looking at a blue car and say it is a blue car, there could be 1 or 2 that will stand there and tell us all it is yellow!

Sad but true....


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

ipopro said:


> People don't want to know the truth! Like I said if I am looking at a blue car and all the people standing around are looking at a blue car and say it is a blue car, there could be 1 or 2 that will stand there and tell us all it is yellow!
> 
> Sad but true....


:thumbup: 

Or vice versa, you will know you are looking at a blue car but some will find the color blue offensive and the others will rally around the offended party in a show of support.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

I think zeal for someone they respect and passion for the method, can color any new information that seems to contradict or shade in a negative way what they hold to be true. Reality is, every trainer, behaviorist, celebrity etc has things that aren't going to be received well.. Something done in the path while learning, or something done now that conflicts with current trends.. The lack of common sense and the ability to absorb new information and put it in context is sorely lacking in so many.. I admire the passion and appreciate that the poster has done good for their dog community.. Unfortunate they can't see what people are trying to show them isn't attacking them or CM, just stating facts and their opinions.. 

Hopefully the OP is doing better with their dog and can have a long happy life with her.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Aikosu how are you doing.
An important issue that you have to stop is the fence running.
This can develop into serious neurotic behaviour , almost an addictive need .
Your dog is at the stage where territorial aggression emerges . Again, not a fear
period that you wait out . You need to take proactive management .
This has to be difficult for you living in a home that is not "yours" with other family members .




would like to hear more from you --


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Zeal for the celebrity you admire, doesn't give people the right to call other people they don't know ignorant, or _internet experts. _If you cannot stand up for your training method or individual trainers without putting other people down, then the individual is better off without you on their side.


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## Aikosu (May 20, 2016)

misfits said:


> Just in case the OP is still around, here's what we did for my genetically fearful dog. First, muzzle trained him so that I could relax, and not constantly have to be vigilant.Then, my trainer had me study Grisha Stewart's book on B.A.T. (which has already been mentioned)Then, in concert with a couple of my trainer's stable dogs, had him observe and help me with my timing, etc. Now, my dog will never be stable, but we have got him to the point we're doing scent-work, and he's doing pretty well in some outdoor obedience claasses.........just my experience.....


I might have to introduce a muzzle for her when she's out in my yard as I can't always be watching for passers so I can get her in a sit and tell her "NO" or "Leave it" although that may be restricting for her as she uses her mouth to play and grab stuff.


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## Aikosu (May 20, 2016)

carmspack said:


> Aikosu how are you doing.
> An important issue that you have to stop is the fence running.
> This can develop into serious neurotic behaviour , almost an addictive need .
> Your dog is at the stage where territorial aggression emerges . Again, not a fear
> ...


How can I go about correcting fence running? She doesn't have any focus on me when she sees someone or a dog and I can't have her leashed all the time when we're both outside so I can lead her away from the fence cause she needs exercise and the leash restricts her. I checked out some of solidk9training and others but can't seem to find anything concerning fence running or things that can apply to her.


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## Aikosu (May 20, 2016)

middleofnowhere said:


> Sigh. I feel for the OP. They've gotten lost in the great "expert" trashing, member bashing....
> 
> I'd like to know how the OP's coming with their dog.
> 
> Not so much whatcha all think about television programs and personalities.


Hi, I made the thread a few days ago so I'm beginning from scratch with her and applying some of the things I have learned so far from what the generous posters like Chip18 have put up but it'll prove to be a challenge. It's not impossible and I certainly won't give up on my dog.


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## Aikosu (May 20, 2016)

Hi all, I see that there is a bit of arguing on here about Cesar Millan and his methods but I can assure you that I won't be using them. I respect him and the methods he uses but they're not for everyone and I'm one of those "everyone". A major reason I won't be using his methods and don't think I ever will is because I don't know dogs like he does and I'm not as experienced in training them. It's the internet and people are going to disagree with what other says but it's really not reason to bash each other. We all like and enjoy different things. Cheers!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Aikosu said:


> I might have to introduce a muzzle for her when she's out in my yard as I can't always be watching for passers so I can get her in a sit and tell her "NO" or "Leave it" although that may be restricting for her as she uses her mouth to play and grab stuff.


Oh ... your back:









Fine then ... time to step away from the mud fight(S) for a bit. 

The fence fighting ... yeah ingrained behaviour here. The muzzle I get the idea but not the right tool for this problem??

Possibly a real Bark collar would work?? But even then the dog could still run back and forth acting like a tool he just would not bark ... a partial solution. And it would need to be a real "Bark Collar" not the Citronella crap. One of these:

No Bark Collars | Electronic Training Collars | Dogtra

For this ... sorry but your gonna have to "make it real for the dog!" As in "this crap is not allowed period end of story!" 

The long slow time consuming, user friendly approach ... you already know. That would be "Place" and random people walking by would be the distraction, you'd use a long line dog in "Place" and you correct the dog as required. And or Sit on the Dog leash on the dog and again if the dog breaks, you correct the dog. I do believe it would work ...but honestly not very practical?? 

So .... next up equaled only in effectiveness and speed by an E-Collar but at the cost of "Zero" dollars would be *"Bonker Time!!"* 

Yep ... I'm that guy! The Puppy Bonker! 
But instead of a towel bond in rubber bands that you throw at the dog and hit him with it! I'd suggest a pair of heavy socks! Most likely, as it is you could be as close as five feet because the dog really does not give a crap about what you say anyway, he says ..."I'll do what I want!"

OK then ... have your bundle of socks ready let him bark and you nail him between the shoulder blades or the back of the head with the "Bonker!" You can either say "NO" or nothing not sure on that part. An "Act of God Correction" ...where did that come from?? Would work just as well ie I act like a fool and bad things happen??

Most likely two or three times?? Problem solved?? The facts behind that approach can be found here:

Home

And since pictures are worth a thousand words ... which I can also do ... meet Sally Scooter:






So that is the "Zero Dollar" no cost solution! 

Next up ... would of course be an E-Collar and the* "Behaviour Modification Protocol!" *You put the collar on Crank it to 100 and when dog does what you don't don't want him to do, you hold the button down for two to three seconds! 

Now ... that is not how you train a dog with an E-Collar but to stop a seriously bad behaviour ... that's how it's done example.:






You need to deliver a serious freaking consequence, to stop this crap, if someone else has some more "touchy feely" approaches, suggestions to stop this crap, step on up, I'm all ears!

Cause as I am want to say ... 










Note for the record I am not Cesar Millan I have no idea what he'd suggest ... is that a cheap shot??


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Aikosu said:


> How can I go about correcting fence running? She doesn't have any focus on me when she sees someone or a dog and I can't have her leashed all the time when we're both outside so I can lead her away from the fence cause she needs exercise and the leash restricts her. I checked out some of solidk9training and others but can't seem to find anything concerning fence running or things that can apply to her.


I haven't gone and read the whole thread so if these questions have been answered, sorry. Have you done any obedience classes with the dog? Have you worked on leave it and watch me commands for focus on you?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Oh ... your back:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What's the problem? Cesar is a bully breed man.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Aikosu said:


> Hi all, I see that there is a bit of arguing on here about Cesar Millan and his methods but I can assure you that I won't be using them. I respect him and the methods he uses but they're not for everyone and I'm one of those "everyone". A major reason I won't be using his methods and don't think I ever will is because I don't know dogs like he does and I'm not as experienced in training them. It's the internet and people are going to disagree with what other says but it's really not reason to bash each other. We all like and enjoy different things. Cheers!


Aikosu, you are very gracious. It is a pleasure having somebody like you come to the forum.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> What's the problem? Cesar is a bully breed man.


Oh I don't have a problem with Cesar actually, I've done the take dogs from struggling owners and see the "issues" disappear like magic thing. 

Mr Pittie was my first serious challenge! Not a two minutes or less doggie that one! 

Anyway it took me 9 years to figure out what Cesar does with the walk thing ...but the basics is the first clip in here:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html

But apparently much to simple no one sees to notice well Ok a few do?? It seemed silly to me, many many years ago. And apparently I was wrong but sigh ... at it again, if people take the time to get it done as in that clip a SLL is nothing ...KISS. 

But Cesar ... I only meant I'd not seen him stop a dog with a fence fighting issue?? Not saying he can't, I have just never seen him do it?? Most likely he'd not employ ... a bucket of socks!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Oh I don't have a problem with Cesar actually, I've done the take dogs from struggling owners and see the "issues" disappear like magic thing.
> 
> Mr Pittie was my first serious challenge! Not a two minutes or less doggie that one!
> 
> ...


We've discussed those socks before.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> We've discussed those socks before.


Oh I only used a half a pair to stop Rocky from being annoying with the Door Knock barking. Four barks is more than enough. He got the message. I did not even need to get out of my chair.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Oh forgot ... "Behaviour Modification" with an E collar, you could ... actually hire a trainer just for that, if you use the term "Behaviour Modification" it should help weed out the quacks. I would think?? Or a bit more helpful, look for a trainer that does Rattlesnake Avoidance Training .. it's pretty much the same thing (Behaviour Modification) he's just sub fence fighting for Snakes. 

And that classe is about about $75 bucks around here.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

To the op -I find it best in addition to all the good info -if you use a long line for training I really like the biothane leads and to get a good trainer to guide you. It will help you with your timing on corrections. 

Lol- oops I noticed I spelled Cesar's name wrong in my previous posts-sorry Cesar-spell check is a brat.


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

Chip18 said:


> Oh forgot ... "Behaviour Modification" with an E collar, you could ... actually hire a trainer just for that, if you use the term "Behaviour Modification" it should help weed out the quacks. I would think?? Or a bit more helpful, look for a trainer that does Rattlesnake Avoidance Training .. it's pretty much the same thing (Behaviour Modification) he's just sub fence fighting for Snakes.
> 
> And that classe is about about $75 bucks around here.


Chip may I please place this innocent little e collar on you for a bit just to get you to act right? It'll only take a minute I assure you (stay calm) it will all be over in just a minute!


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

Chip18 said:


> Oh ... your back:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Chip I like ya, I respect ya and also I appreciate ya for what you do!

I would only suggest to "set the dog up" and consistently correct the undesirable behavior. For as long as it takes to get the desired result. ie... be in close proximity and make correction, move further away and monitor and make correction, further away with video camera (I think you have one) monitor (like parents watch their children live stream) make correction from out of line of sight. 2 cell phones one on speaker near training area and a video cam allows you to be down the road around the corner and still monitor and make verbal correction.

That is one way, and yours is another and you do what you do I understand and I simply disagree with it as you can now tell. I hope that one day as the result of our and others disagreeing on methods comes up with another solution..

HUGZZZZ Brother!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Aikosu said:


> How can I go about correcting fence running? She doesn't have any focus on me when she sees someone or a dog and I can't have her leashed all the time when we're both outside so I can lead her away from the fence cause she needs exercise and the leash restricts her. I checked out some of solidk9training and others but can't seem to find anything concerning fence running or things that can apply to her.


I teach them to "Leave It" I walk them past something that will interest them, tell them leave it, and immediately pop them with the leash. I don't reward with anything other then a little praise because I don't want it to be a case of whats more interesting.

It needs to be started on a leash consistently before it will be reliable enough to be off leash. Its just a general avoidance of things to beat a correction. The other part that will help when you're there is a good recall. That's something you can do with motivational things, play, reward.

Combined, you can get to a point where as soon as she looks at the fence you can tell her leave it, she'll avoid, come, she'll be happy coming to you to do something better.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

ipopro said:


> Chip I like ya, I respect ya and also I appreciate ya for what you do!
> 
> I would only suggest to "set the dog up" and consistently correct the undesirable behavior. For as long as it takes to get the desired result. ie... be in close proximity and make correction, move further away and monitor and make correction, further away with video camera (I think you have one) monitor (like parents watch their children live stream) make correction from out of line of sight. 2 cell phones one on speaker near training area and a video cam allows you to be down the road around the corner and still monitor and make verbal correction.
> 
> ...


Aww yes ... well, I don't hide things that work from people. 

Yes, this "Behaviour" can be "trained" out of the dog ... no doubt. And I'm pretty sure that those saying so, can "Do just that."  
But no one here knows how long this dog has in this home, if he continues to do this crap??? No one here knows how long it would take this owner to train "Leave It" or any other "Eyes on approach??"

There are 378,432,000 in years and yep I'd make 3 secs of that "Dog's life absolutely miserable! Will the dog scream maybe?? Will the Dog Pee himself?? Most likely?? But what he won't do is "fence fight!" Not my call.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ok, I am mostly positive, and the beginning of that vid, where he says the dog is going to be different when he comes out of the crate, will know him, and be subdued or whatever, I was not impressed. 

But then, he's tossing around a towel. And I got to thinking. Once in a blue moon, I will toss a stainless steel pail into a ruckus, that I want stopped, and when that thing clatters around and out of no where, you better believe it gives them pause. It might not stop a full bitch fight, but if a dog is too busy worrying about what the other dogs are doing to listen to what I said, and I whip that pail down, it like an "OH! the sky is falling moment." Oh, Susie said Quiet! or Enough! or whatever. I rarely have to use that, but it is in my toolbox. 

There is no Purely Positive. It just doesn't exist however permissive someone may be. For positive training to work, people have to lose every permissive bone in their body. But, what I like about mostly positive is that you have to have a pretty big training tool box with many compartments. And the idea is that tomorrow, you will get farther than you did today, but there will be no fear or negative stress when you bring out the leash for training. Maybe if you are looking at a dog that will chomp down on your face, the dog eyeing you with some healthy respect when you near its crate is what you are looking for. But if we begin the process long before we are worried about the dog's behavior, we can have a dog anticipating training as fun and exciting, not anticipating the battle he might have. 

I am more interested in a dog trying to figure out what I want them to do, so they can please me and get praise, a YES!, Good Boy! Than a dog trying to avoid a chucked item, or a bonk, or a leash correction. 

I do have the SS pails at hand or more likely foot. I've been kicking the bucket every night for about a week now, as there is one of the buggers in my kitchen for some reason.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

for a border collie notorious for stock chasing , one pebble , one slingshot , one good aim and zappo on the butt . The dog spins around wondering where it came from --- he believes "he" his behaviour produced the sting (and it did!) and stock chasing quits. 
options for a sheep killer border collie ? Not too many .
I think a correction needs to be quick , decisive , meaningful and generated for and by the dogs misbehaviour , no anger , nothing afterwards outside of a change of behaviour.


good posts Chip18 -- like the dishwasher video .


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Slingshots worked great on horses sitting back on the hot Walker or pawing while tied... Quick sting on the butt.. Nobody around.. Huh.. Better stop doing what I'm doing.. Love it!


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

Chip. As I've already said: That bonker idea is crap and the guy who came up with it is a flat out knucklehead/crap head..

A while back you provided a link, I watched it. OUCH!!


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

Steve Strom said:


> I teach them to "Leave It" I walk them past something that will interest them, tell them leave it, and immediately pop them with the leash. I don't reward with anything other then a little praise because I don't want it to be a case of whats more interesting.
> 
> It needs to be started on a leash consistently before it will be reliable enough to be off leash. Its just a general avoidance of things to beat a correction. The other part that will help when you're there is a good recall. That's something you can do with motivational things, play, reward.
> 
> Combined, you can get to a point where as soon as she looks at the fence you can tell her leave it, she'll avoid, come, she'll be happy coming to you to do something better.


Ok so we have:
The Bonker idea.
The Sling Shot idea (hope ya don't take your dog's eye out).
and we have this:
Steve Strom's post.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Hineni7 said:


> Slingshots worked great on horses sitting back on the hot Walker or pawing while tied... Quick sting on the butt.. Nobody around.. Huh.. Better stop doing what I'm doing.. Love it!


Sling Shot??? LOL proportional use of force. 

A dogs a lot smaller target than a horse! Although I do believe sling shots were used back in the day ... still a bit much even for me.  

But ... meet you halfway ... KMODT ... a "throw chain." And "self correction." 

Details:

Dog Training and Obedience Articles | Self Correction - Carpentersville, Illinois


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Well you could use socks in the slingshot


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> Ok, I am mostly positive, and the beginning of that vid, where he says the dog is going to be different when he comes out of the crate, will know him, and be subdued or whatever, I was not impressed.
> 
> But then, he's tossing around a towel. And I got to thinking. Once in a blue moon, I will toss a stainless steel pail into a ruckus, that I want stopped, and when that thing clatters around and out of no where, you better believe it gives them pause. It might not stop a full bitch fight, but if a dog is too busy worrying about what the other dogs are doing to listen to what I said, and I whip that pail down, it like an "OH! the sky is falling moment." Oh, Susie said Quiet! or Enough! or whatever. I rarely have to use that, but it is in my toolbox.
> 
> ...


A bucket??? LOL ... you do know it's the exact same "concept" as a "Bonker" startle response ... where the heck did that come from???

Only difference is you target an "area" instead of the "dog!" So ... it would seem I covered that also apparently??? Take out the socks (Bonkers) and throw the bucket at the fence! 

It's simply a "modification" of the Bonker approach but not very practical indoors I would imagine?? Thanks for the tip.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> A bucket??? LOL ... you do know it's the exact same "concept" as a "Bonker" startle response ... where the heck did that come from???
> 
> Only difference is you target an "area" instead of the "dog!" So ... it would seem I covered that also apparently??? Take out the socks (Bonkers) and throw the bucket at the fence!
> 
> It's simply a "modification" of the Bonker approach but not very practical indoors I would imagine?? Thanks for the tip.


LOL! Thanks for the tip!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Chip18 said:


> A bucket??? LOL ... you do know it's the exact same "concept" as a "Bonker" startle response ... where the heck did that come from???
> 
> Only difference is you target an "area" instead of the "dog!" So ... it would seem I covered that also apparently??? Take out the socks (Bonkers) and throw the bucket at the fence!
> 
> It's simply a "modification" of the Bonker approach but not very practical indoors I would imagine?? Thanks for the tip.


Nah, not a "modification" because I have never read or heard of the bonker approach before hand. More a CM-type thing: I am in the middle of a situation with a dog, and my body knows what to do, and does it, and afterwards I can think about it and explain why it worked, kind of.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Findlay said:


> Ok so we have:
> The Bonker idea.
> The Sling Shot idea (hope ya don't take your dog's eye out).
> and we have this:
> Steve Strom's post.


 There is nothing wrong with Steve Storms approach. I laid out a similar scenario using "Place and Sit on the Dog" I just don't add commands because my goal is for the dog to "Chose not to act like a fool" the dog does not need my input input to tell him ... to make "Good Choice.s" He can figure it out on his own.

The thing is "training" out a bad behaviour using "PO" if you will is all fine and stuff. But sorry* "the members that have these kinds of issues, can't train their dogs, at the moment! If they could ... they would not have these issues!" 
*

Dogs that display "at risk behaviour" don't have a lot of time! The owners are usually desperate and they tend to have dogs doing crap that could cost the dogs there lives or get the owners of those dogs "kicked out of there homes or sued they need solutions, right freaking now??" 

I have no problem with Steve's advise, I have dogs on both side of me that barked constantly, if I go in my backyard they bark!!!

My three dogs lived between them, what did my neighbors hear from my dog ...* "NOTHING!!!" So how exactly does that help the OP ... it doesn't because, I can train dogs. 
*

So ... no disrespect to others intended but I did state "I do not how long an eyes on dog correct out the behaviour approach would take??" Add In unskilled owner, which is fairly obvious or they would not have these problems.

So factor all that in and the only one giving an actual "time of resolution for fixing the fence fighting thing" ... is me and the time that this can be fixed ... right freaking now with the appropriate tool is : *3 sec's flat!*

So ... anybody that can top that number?? Step on up! 

For the record I like the Bucket thing.  Sling shot done in the past but throw chain is a better option in my view for dogs. Kohler himself however might have disagreed?? ANd I of course go with the Bonker don't know if Gary knows I use and recommend socks?? 


But ... if you have a problem with the "Bonker thing??" Don't shoot the messenger, tell him yourself ... :

https://www.facebook.com/gary.wilkes.39

Be respectful, he does not bear fools well.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> Nah, not a "modification" because I have never read or heard of the bonker approach before hand. More a CM-type thing: I am in the middle of a situation with a dog, and my body knows what to do, and does it, and afterwards I can think about it and explain why it worked, kind of.


LOL nope sorry you can't take it back! It's out there!!!

Now and I saw it! If you it makes you feel better my oft mentioned "Who Pet's My puppy or dog" thing ...
Leerburg | Who Pets Your Puppy or Dog

I had always done that ... I'd just never thought about because the answer was always yes, when Mr OS WL GSD came along with his people issues??? I actually saw what I had been doing anyway and "realized" well ... I could say "NO." Worked out fine. 

There is nothing new under the sun in "Dog Training only stuff we are unaware of. 

So sorry ...but the bucket stays!


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I guess it might depend on timing, but I tried the bonker thing once for barking and my dog spun around and snagged the sock ball out of the air after it bounced off her butt. She thought it was fun. 

Toss a key chain or similar, that seems to work as an interruption much better. So I guess I'm in the throw-chain camp a bit. Either way, it's more an interrupter to get the dog's attention and break focus than a correction or a means to completely end a behavior. 

High level e-collar would be my choice for stopping stock chasing, dangerous fence running, and the like. 

A bonker, I don't think it's really that great a tool for prey-obsessed GSDs. Looks too much like a tug, even with proper timing. Toss your keys or rattle a pan, whatever, to interrupt. But teach "leave it" or "come" or whatever command you want so you can give that after an interruption. Soon it will become habit for the dog. 

I can't emphasize the importance of timing enough, though. If you toss your keys or bonker at the dog at the wrong time, you might actually stimulate more rage rather than suppress the rage-aggression or behavior you are trying to eliminate or interrupt. Thus, a fence fighter could turn into a fence-attacker. Or if two dogs are running a fence together and one gets a bonker in the butt, he could turn and go after his packmate. Not a good idea! 

This is partly why I would go with e-collar which can go high enough to stop that behavior completely unlike a bonker or chain. 

Also, I do think it's important to teach a command, or at least overlay commands like "leave it" or "quiet" or "down" whatever. Because otherwise you have a confused dog with a bunch of arousal that has no idea what to do with that. Best to give them something to do to replace the barking and fence running, at least in the initial stages of the training process.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Chip, yes. I agree completely that there is "nothing new under the sun" in dog training! It's just given all sorts of names now to sell books and seminars (cynical hat on).


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

Aikosu said:


> I might have to introduce a muzzle for her when she's out in my yard as I can't always be watching for passers so I can get her in a sit and tell her "NO" or "Leave it" although that may be restricting for her as she uses her mouth to play and grab stuff.


Aikosu. I don't know if it's been suggested but have you thought of using a long-line when in the back yard?

If your dog likes playing ball, you could keep her on the long-line while you play fetch with her in the yard. When she is distracted by something outside the fence try your best to get her interested in the game again. Tug the long line, call her name, run backwards and as soon as she looks at you toss her the ball.
Use the ball as a reward.

If you're able to get her to even pause for a second when she's yapping at the fence and she glances at you...that's progress. 
reward her with an upbeat "Nice!" and toss her something she loves. a toy. a ball.


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

Jenny720 said:


> To the op *-I find it best in addition to all the good info -if you use a long line for training *I really like the biothane leads and to get a good trainer to guide you. It will help you with your timing on corrections.
> 
> Hi Jenny. oops...
> I didn't notice that you'd also recommended the long line.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Muskeg said:


> I guess it might depend on timing, but I tried the bonker thing once for barking and my dog spun around and snagged the sock ball out of the air after it bounced off her butt. She thought it was fun.


LOL well ... you're not the first! Boxer owners have found themselves "humiliated" also. And you aim for the head" not the butt, the dog finds it "intolerable" and he is not eager to repeat the behaviour that made it happen. 

It is an art form the target from the rear is the back of the head and the dog can't see it coming otherwise yes it is a game! 



Muskeg said:


> Toss a key chain or similar, that seems to work as an interruption much better. So I guess I'm in the throw-chain camp a bit. Either way, it's more an interrupter to get the dog's attention and break focus than a correction or a means to completely end a behavior.


Sounds like "poh-tay-toe" "poh-tah-toe". Yes it might take a reapplication but this is where and why of the "Bonker" it came from:

We meet the bottomline:
AggressionPractice

By contrast .. my approach when faced with this exact same situation was to the use the "I dare you approach!!!"  

Rocky OS WL GSD and at the time Free Roaming in the home Red Zone rampaging monster ... was posterting over Gunther, American Band Dawg. Rocky's head over Gunther's shoulder! I stood right on Rocky's flight and I used the "I dare you to try it approach!!" Well ... Rocky took that bet! I'm fast but Rocky was faster!! I got the first stitches ever breaking up the fight. 

I dare you to try it ... not a recommended approach.  A "Bonker" would have been a much better option as would "Place" and No Free roaming in the house! Which would not have allowed the situation to develop in the first place ... live and learn. 



Muskeg said:


> High level e-collar would be my choice for stopping stock chasing, dangerous fence running, and the like.
> 
> A bonker, I don't think it's really that great a tool for prey-obsessed GSDs. Looks too much like a tug, even with proper timing. Toss your keys or rattle a pan, whatever, to interrupt. But teach "leave it" or "come" or whatever command you want so you can give that after an interruption. Soon it will become habit for the dog.
> 
> ...


 Good observations of course but as regards the "Bonker" a complete and total surprise, is the key and the target is the back of the head.

And most likely an E-Collar is a better option but no Commands Needed for Behaviour Modification. With Behaviour Modification you're not looking for "working Level" you're looking for don't ...even think about it High Level Correction only needs to be done once level. 

E collar aversion training for Rattlesnakes, ... the scent means stay away they don't even need to see hear the snake. So yes a bit of overlap with the Bonker and E Collar for this issue. Both "could achieve" the same effect. 
both have speed on there side but hey the "Bonker approach is cheaper and ... everybody has socks .. or buckets!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Hineni7 said:


> Well you could use socks in the slingshot


LOL ... were the Horses clydesdales ???


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Muskeg said:


> Chip, yes. I agree completely that there is "nothing new under the sun" in dog training! It's just given all sorts of names now to sell books and seminars (cynical hat on).


Oh some of it I see Tylor Muto (Not picking on him Mad Lab) ...







It strikes me as KMODT leash work without the sharp turns?? More like 
"I do give a crap where the dog is in relationship to me." Don't want to hurt Foo Foo's feeling. If she's not paying attention and stuff so I'll just make sure she is ...not that there's anything wrong with that. Just an observation.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I agree that behavioral modification requires no commands if your goal is aversion. So for example, stock chasing, that's fine, make that something the dog never wants to try again.

But in the yard, or on a walk, it can get more nuanced. Yeah, you want to eliminate any crazy reactivity, but why not layer in commands like recall, heel, even watch me. First you get rid of any crazy behavior like all out lunging/barking, then you work on commands, with a dog who is now in thinking mode rather than fight-flight. At least that's how I do it. Not completely necessary, but why not work the dog's mind a bit especially while they might still be in that "I'm excited but I can't have fun barking and lunging anymore but I want to do something" mode during the training process. 

In the yard even more so. The dog is bored out there and barking at passerby is fun. Give them something else to do, fetch, heel work, sniffer games, whatever. Interrupt and end that reactivity, but then give another outlet. If your goal is to have the dog chill out in the yard unattended, that's tough for some dogs. You can stop the barking with a bark collar, which helps, but best to at least monitor dogs that are loose in the yard. 

Back when I was less experienced a "bonker" type deal actually caused a scuffle to erupt between my girls, rather than stop it- and it was to the head.... just saying. I don't do the bonker thing a la Gary Wilkes anymore. That was it for me. I figured out a few things and next time I saw the posturing I was hands on and very very clear that this sort of behavior would not be tolerated... and that was the end of that sort of stuff from my girls. 

I lost all respect for advice from Gary Wilkes, though, after watching this video. I don't know the guy at all aside from a few YouTube videos:


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

We live down a private road and hAve 4 houses on our block. We have large property and partial fence is visible with trees and bushes in front but you can still kind of see who is walking down the road. We make sure max does not bark at anybody who walks down the road. It was never a huge issue but headed it off before it came one. As a pup he knows the recall real well coming back to the house from the backyard and the "leave it. Look- all come into play. From our kitchen I have a real good view of what he is doing outside. If I see him looking to much towards the street. We knock on the glass of the sliding glass door pretty loudly (all done before barking) and say look-we have his full attention. Distraction at its best! I call him over and Depending what's going at the moment he gets a game of fetch or training with ball reward or if at a hectic time some really good treats which are all much better then barking at anyone. I will now still see him at times focusing towards the street but doesn't bark which gives me plenty of time to switch his gears. 
Strengthening the leave it, look, and recall all mentioned earlier by other posters earlier and correcting your dog on a long line when your dog is fixated on something and before your dog barks and then engage in something fun when he focus back to you. Being outside in your yard with your dog on a long line at first is important to make this work.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Muskeg said:


> I agree that behavioral modification requires no commands if your goal is aversion. So for example, stock chasing, that's fine, make that something the dog never wants to try again.
> 
> But in the yard, or on a walk, it can get more nuanced. Yeah, you want to eliminate any crazy reactivity, but why not layer in commands like recall, heel, even watch me. First you get rid of any crazy behavior like all out lunging/barking, then you work on commands, with a dog who is now in thinking mode rather than fight-flight. At least that's how I do it. Not completely necessary, but why not work the dog's mind a bit especially while they might still be in that "I'm excited but I can't have fun barking and lunging anymore but I want to do something" mode during the training process.
> 
> ...


LOL so you knew of the "Bonker" before hand??? Man ... you always bring up interesting points! I thought I could cover them all in one post but ...not gonna work.

So the clip ...yeah no disagreement ... SMH ... take what you need leave the rest is my motto. I was stunned when I also discovered Gary Wilkes uses that "CRAP???" I myself find them an embarrassment for dogs and owners. 

I stay well clear of people using anything beyond a leash ... but to be fair and accurate. I stay well clear of other dogs and their owners anyway kind like ... *"I don't know you I don't know your dog, keep your distance ... I'll do the same" *works out fine. Maybe it's a West Coast thing?? I've had a few* "Walk Bye's" *out here.   

But again that clip and Gary?? As they say, the only thing three dog trainers will agree on ... is what one of them is doing wrong. That clip ... case in point!


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Chip- I agree, take what works for you from any trainer and fly with it! If you it works for you and your dogs, go for it. 

Hope some of this might have helped to OP.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Muskeg said:


> Chip- I agree, take what works for you from any trainer and fly with it! If you it works for you and your dogs, go for it.
> 
> Hope some of this might have helped to OP.


Aww heck ... we're still on point! 

The situation has just changed slightly because you threw in "Pack Members" out of control. And owners struggling to deal with it.

So now we have a variation on "fence fighting."

Fence fighting = Pack fighting = owner struggling to deal = WTH ( owner without a clue) = how to deal??? 

If that is acceptable ... then now "we" are equal to the OP ... don't have a freaking clue!

So now ... "we" aren't who we are "now," we are who we were "then." 

So the ... "Bonker" apparently you were aware of it??? You tried it and it did not work for "You." So you did "the hands on Knock this crap off approach with your dogs" and it worked out fine. 

I was not aware of the Bonker??? I saw the posturing, I tried the "I dare you to approach!!!" Instead of the "Bonker."

Hands on solution at that time worked for "you!" For me ...not so much! For me Rocky took that bet, I went hands on ... today I still have the use of my left hand "because" my American Band Dawg was a well trained dog!

Today 9 years later I still have full use of my left hand. Because my American Band Dawg was well trained even with 116 lbs of pounds of Raging, WL GSD on his back ... when I said down he did! And Rocky (GSD) said ...Hot **** I got this! So I had to get in there! 

In my attempt to disengage Rocky I screwed up! My hand landed between Gunther's jaws!!! I felt his jaws close down (and I thought ... this is gonna hurt!!) And then even with 116 lbs of out of control OS WL GSD on his back ... Gunther let go??

That fight ... ultimately I pried "Rocky's" jaws off of Gunther, that resulted in the first stitches in my life ever and I still have a permanently bent little finger from that dust up. But because of Gunther's training and "Good Choices" I still have full use of my left hand. 

So for "me" in that exact same situation ... I tend to believe that a "Bonker" would have been a more effective solution than my "I dare you to try approach???" 

I don't know?? But I do know for me the "hands on approach ... did not work out so well! Had I know of the "Bonker" at the time I'd have used it. 

Would it have worked for me ... I don't know?? But the concept is sound and proven ...stop the bad behavior first, with an aversive and then ...take the time to "train" your way out of the problem." 

So I can relate to being one without a clue??? As I am want to say ... been there done that got the stitches. 

Back on point here ... no one knows how long this dog has to continue this crap before the head of the house, says enough of this crap ... this dog has got to go!

A strong enough "aversion" will stop this "fence fighting" crap right now! If the OP can get that done first, then yes "train there" way out of the rest. Because the OP will then have* "time" *the unaccounted for element for training to work. 

As I said a 3 sec solution for the "fence fighting" thing is on the table ...no one has matched that yet???


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> As I said a 3 sec solution for the "fence fighting" thing is on the table ...no one has matched that yet???


Hmmm! Nobody here has proven that the purported 3 second solution would work on some dogs, most dogs, all dogs.... have you tried it?


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

lool fence fighting solved in 3 sec 

good luck


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

build a double fence and put things that prevent them from grabbing each others faces or your dog grabbing the others face and killing it. When she gets older if there is enough room. It is cheap easy to do. You can use wire. NEVEr chicken wire they can bite right through that.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

SHe is young going through those fearful stages don't worry keep taking her and socializing her hopefully she gets over it. If it just started to happen now. Correct her say NO and keep going dont let her do it. Correct her when she is going to do it not in the act. Catch her in the act. ALso I would not put a prong on her at that age.


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