# Breeding tips. Age to start etc .... Can anyone help



## Tara

Just looking some tips here.

What's the perfect age to start?

As for a stud dog what should I look out for ? 

Only want one litter out of my girl then she's getting neutered.


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## LaRen616

Please do not breed your dog, there are already way too many animals dying in shelters everyday because people "wanted a puppy from their dog" or they wanted to make a quick buck or their unaltered animal got out and bred with another dog or strays that keep reproducing. So please go take a look at your local animal shelter, more than half of those dogs in there will not be making it back out. :teary:


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## LaRen616

If more people were responsible then we wouldn't have so many animals dying every single day in shelters. 

Breeding should be left to reputable Breeders, people that are looking to better the breed, people looking to breed healthier GSD's and GSD's that have great temperment and the ability to preform any task that their owner gives to them.


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## Tara

It's not for making a quick buck , my mum want one , my granny wants one for security as does my uncles and aunts they love Tara and want her pups. I know it will be sore on her but I want to keep her living on , I'm thinking ahead because some day she wont be living and when that day comes I think if there's her pups around it won't be as tough to deal with. I know it's a long wile away.


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## LaRen616

Tara said:


> It's not for making a quick buck , my mum want one , my granny wants one for security as does my uncles and aunts they love Tara and want her pups. I know it will be sore on her but I want to keep her living on , I'm thinking ahead because some day she wont be living and when that day comes I think if there's her pups around it won't be as tough to deal with. I know it's a long wile away.


How old is she? 

What does she bring to the breed? 

Only dogs that have titles, great health, great temperment, great bloodlines and great working ability should be bred. 

You are just going to contribute more puppies that are going to end up in shelters and die. 

Go look at your local animal shelter, those dogs are there because of people like you.


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## gsdraven

She should be at least 2 years old. Health tested, hips checked and preferably titled in something to show she can work like the breed was meant too.

She is a long coat (probably) and is not to breed standard so many will say she should not be bred. If she has temperament issues (fear or aggression) then she definitely should not bred. Which by the way, some issues you won't see until 2 years old since depending on the line, German Shepherds do not mature until 2-3 years old.

If your family wants a great dog, then their best bet is to go to a reputable breeder to stack the odds in their favor.

You won't get a lot of support here for breeding your pet. We are strong advocates of leaving the breeding to the professionals. The people who have researched bloodlines and genetics and know how to pair to dogs to create a German Shepherd they are proud of and that continues to improve the breed.

Also, females get spayed. Males are neutered.


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## LaRen616

You know, my black GSD is absolutely gorgeous, I think he is and so do my friends and my family, he has a fantastic temperment and he gets along great with people, kids, cats and other dogs but he doesn't have any titles, he is from a BYB, he doesn't have the best health and he doesn't have good bloodlines, as much as I love him and as much as I would love to have a puppy from him I would never breed him, he is not going to make the breed better, he is going to produce more puppies and those puppies are going to produce puppies and those puppies are going to produce more puppies, get the picture? There are too many puppies dying everyday, why would I want one of my dog's puppies to die the same way?


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## Tara

Haha stop making out as if I'm bad to dogs. I love dogs if you seen how spoilt my dog was you wouldn't say that , and Ireland isn't as bad as America we actuly have a Conscience when it come to training animals , all the puppies will be giving to family members who are dog lovers, none will be in shelters.

So it's not people like me that leave dogs like that.

She's 5 months nearly 6 , and before you start I know I'm about a year off breeding yet I'm hardly gonna start breeding out of a 5 month pup!

She's very smart, great temper with kids ,good for security very protective but does not bite. Very playful. Easy to house train.


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## Tara

gsdraven said:


> She should be at least 2 years old. Health tested, hips checked and preferably titled in something to show she can work like the breed was meant too.
> 
> She is a long coat (probably) and is not to breed standard so many will say she should not be bred. If she has temperament issues (fear or aggression) then she definitely should not bred. Which by the way, some issues you won't see until 2 years old since depending on the line, German Shepherds do not mature until 2-3 years old.
> 
> If your family wants a great dog, then their best bet is to go to a reputable breeder to stack the odds in their favor.
> 
> You won't get a lot of support here for breeding your pet. We are strong advocates of leaving the breeding to the professionals. The people who have researched bloodlines and genetics and know how to pair to dogs to create a German Shepherd they are proud of and that continues to improve the breed.
> 
> Also, females get spayed. Males are neutered.


Breeding professionals ? What people who take 9 litters out of one dog , no way .

I'd rather get one litter out of my dog then that's it. And it's purely for family not sold told random Joe.


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## gsdraven

Tara said:


> She's very smart, great temper with kids ,good for security very protective but does not bite. Very playful. Easy to house train.


She's a baby. At this age, she doesn't have it in her to be protective. If she seems protective, she's acting in fear. I hope you read around the site quite a bit. You'll learn a lot of the development of German Shepherds. They aren't your average dog.



> Breeding professionals ? What people who take 9 litters out of one dog , no way .


That's not my definition of a breeding professional. Check out the breeding section of the forum. You'll see what most of us think is a good breeder.


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## Tara

It's not fear if she's around fields she will run after cows and sheep lol

When someone she dosent know comes into the house she barks and tried to scare them off like most dogs would, when you reassure her that the persons ok she's straight up getting petted and licking them.

For a young pup she's very mature and old fashioned already with her own wee personality.


So does anyone have a answer to my question ?


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## Deuce

LaRen616 said:


> You know, my black GSD is absolutely gorgeous, I think he is and so do my friends and my family, he has a fantastic temperment and he gets along great with people, kids, cats and other dogs but he doesn't have any titles, he is from a BYB, he doesn't have the best health and he doesn't have good bloodlines, as much as I love him and as much as I would love to have a puppy from him I would never breed him, he is not going to make the breed better, he is going to produce more puppies and those puppies are going to produce puppies and those puppies are going to produce more puppies, get the picture? There are too many puppies dying everyday, why would I want one of my dog's puppies to die the same way?


I agree.


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## LaRen616

Tara said:


> Haha stop making out as if I'm bad to dogs. I love dogs if you seen how spoilt my dog was you wouldn't say that , and Ireland isn't as bad as America we actuly have a Conscience when it come to training animals , all the puppies will be giving to family members who are dog lovers, none will be in shelters.
> 
> So it's not people like me that leave dogs like that.
> 
> She's 5 months nearly 6 , and before you start I know I'm about a year off breeding yet I'm hardly gonna start breeding out of a 5 month pup!
> 
> She's very smart, great temper with kids ,good for security very protective but does not bite. Very playful. Easy to house train.


If your dog has 10 puppies you already have homes for all 10? 

I didn't say "So it's not people like me that leave dogs like that." but what I did say was _"Go look at your local animal shelter, those dogs are there because of people like you."_ Meaning that people who think the way you do, producing puppies because you think your dog is great and people want a puppy from her, are the reasons why so many puppies are in shelters, there are not enough homes in the world for puppies and dogs and that is why they are in shelters.


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## Tara

I have a big family 12 aunts and uncles , 7 of them want puppies and my granny wants one , and il keep 2 for sure. That's if she has 10.

Anyone answer my question ?


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## gsdraven

Tara said:


> It's not fear if she's around fields she will run after cows and sheep lol


That has nothing to do with protection.



> When someone she dosent know comes into the house she barks and tried to scare them off like most dogs would,


This is out of fear of peope she doesn't know... not protecting you or the house.



gsdraven said:


> She should be at least 2 years old. Health tested, hips checked and preferably titled in something to show she can work like the breed was meant too.
> 
> She is a long coat (probably) and is not to breed standard so many will say she should not be bred. If she has temperament issues (fear or aggression) then she definitely should not bred. Which by the way, some issues you won't see until 2 years old since depending on the line, German Shepherds do not mature until 2-3 years old.


These are all the things you should look for in a stud dog as well. Males also mature slower than females.


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## Tara

Thanks I already have a buddy with a long haired German shepherd for stud one of the most beautiful dogs I have seen very healthy good hips and coat. I will get pictures up it looks like this...

http://oldfashionedgermanshepherds.com/files/new_sam_stn_gdd2_2.jpg


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## doglover1

Dogs are considered sexually matured and ready for mating at age 2.
unless you have her vet checked and she has OFA clearance, hips/eyes rated, etc. I wouldn't do it.
Do all of your homework research, and make sure you have homes for all these pups, and they don't end up dumped, abandoned or in the shelter. that wouldn't be fair.


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## W.Oliver

This should be a sticky thread on the genisis of a BYB.........


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## Denali Girl

Tara if I may.....what people here are trying to say is we know you love your dog and I bet she's awesome but your dog and the dog she is going to breed with should have some kind of working ability....PROVEN working ability not chasing sheep or cows around the yard. The dogs should be titled and this is for the better of the breed. I have a female with a proven working background on both sides and I wouldn't even breed her, I am man enough to say that I don't know enough about it and I don't have the time or the money to raise a litter. There are so many beautiful dogs out there but that does not mean they should be bread. Just look into it a bit more, if you TRULY love the breed you will do some hard research first.


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## W.Oliver

Working titles are very important, but let us set that aside and focus on health verification. Hips & Elbows on dogs to be bred should be certified. What do you know about the health concerns of GSDs?

The most important thing I would say to someone such as yourself is this......

The perception your dog is special is a natural part of being in love, but not a sufficient reason to breed her.


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## Samba

There are a bunch of wonderful German Shepherds in rescue right now who would make great pets. It would be so awesome if, instead of adding to the pet population, all the people in your family adopted a rescue! I have four rescue dogs right now and they are AMAZING dogs. 

For your particular dog there is probably no good age for breeding or any stud advice.


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## KZoppa

We're not going to encourage you to breed your dog. Especially since 1) your pup is only almost 6 months old and therefore you cant know for sure what traits would be passed on good and bad. 2) just because you have family who all say they want a pup from your dog, doesnt mean they'll all follow through and take one. 3) You are not a professional breeder and therefore have no right as you have no intention of doing the breeding to IMPROVE the breed. Spay your dog and encourage your family to adopt a dog in need of a home instead or go to a REPUTABLE BREEDER for a pup from a litter of titled parents.


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## onyx'girl

What if you lose your wonderful girl while she is whelping? It does happen! Do you have any experience whelping puppies? 
I agree with everyone else, spay your girl and have them find a pup that is already looking for a wonderful home.


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## Holmeshx2

completely agree with everyone you have no clue what a pup is going to be like at maturity at only 6 months old they have so many phases to go through. I'm sure you love and trust your family but we all here a million times that family wants a pup then they breed their loved dog and then no one wants the pups or only a few still take them GSDs can easily have like 10-12 pups then what? What if she reasorbs her pups to you breed her again? What about if she only has 2 (has been happening alot lately) do you breed her again so the rest of your family that wanted pups can have one? With your comment about 9 litters out of one dog I seriously think your thinking about a puppy mill those are not professionals. I would definitely rethink the breeding personally however if you wont at least spend this time and do a TON of research at 2 get the hips and elbows xrayed and see if she still passes those basic very simple tests. Make sure your vet does all the tests to make sure she isn't passing on any of the health concerns that come from GSDs same with the male. You said you already have a male picked out and shes only 6 months? Definitely too soon in my opinion how old is he? What has he had done health wise to check him out.


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## littlesparky

My old shepherd (10 years old) has had a few puppies over the years and she is a wonderful mom, BUT hears the catch, she has never been bred (I got her when she was 8 weeks old). 
1. puppy- husbands doberman-female now 8 years old
2. puppy- daughters dachshund-female now 7 years old in another state
3. puppy- english mastiff-female now 3 years old
4. puppy- german shepherd female now 6 months old
Its amazing every puppy she has rasied is a wonderful dog and they all still love their mom.


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## W.Oliver

Think about it....there is a reason all these German Shepherd people with more experience than you are offering very consistent advice.

At this point in your exposure to the GSD breed, you may find reasons to dismiss the direction offered, and breed anyway, and that would be unfortunate. Or, you could step-up to the opinions in front of you and study, read, research and educate yourself as to why folks are saying what has been said. Gain an understanding of these opinions and the basis from which they are derived. There is much to learn about what a GSD is and isn't, and that is what a real breeder of the GSD knows.

If you take the first course of action, you're destine to be a lowly back yard breeder undermining the longterm benefit of the GSD. If you elect the later course, you may very well be on your way to becoming a knowledgable breeder promoting the longterm sustainability of the breed we charish. Your choice, are you part of the problem or part of the solution?


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## GSDElsa

I really don't feel like I have much to add as far as the reasons why not to do this. They have been covered prettty well. However, I believe you are naive and uneducated in the unwanted dog issue in your own country that is "so unlike" America. Considering the population of Irelend, I would say you do indeed have a serious problem. Just a few of the many many articles I found:

BBC Inside Out - Saving the Irish Strays

Stray dogs 'needlessly put down'

Irish Pet Population - WSAVA 2008 Congress


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## Zisso

Tara,
I had a girl that I wanted to breed, not that long ago. As it turned out, she was from a back yard breeder, and was not as healthy as I had always thought. While she was the best dog I ever had and I wanted to have a pup from her, I didn't and I am grateful. She had hip dysplasia & arthritis, and at 10 years old she could not take more than 3 steps before falling over. She would have to picked up and carried back to the house. She was in pain most of her life, because she had bad hips from a very young age but I never knew it. I never knew it because I was _ignorant_ and in _denial_. Afterall, I thought she was perfect!

I have two right now that while I would love to see what their pups would look like, I took the advice of the professionals here and both of my dogs are altered. One way to look at that is this was my 'contribution' to the betterment of the breed.....by NOT breeding two that have a variety of issues. 

Reputable breeders know what they are doing because they put their everything into it. Those that work in rescues work hard to help all the dogs that wind up homeless because of people who have No idea what they are doing. Too many lives are lost due to over population and not enough homes. 

PLEASE do not become another back yard breeder!!


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## BestK9GSD

W.Oliver said:


> Think about it....there is a reason all these German Shepherd people with more experience than you are offering very consistent advice.
> 
> At this point in your exposure to the GSD breed, you may find reasons to dismiss the direction offered, and breed anyway, and that would be unfortunate. Or, you could step-up to the opinions in front of you and study, read, research and educate yourself as to why folks are saying what has been said. Gain an understanding of these opinions and the basis from which they are derived. There is much to learn about what a GSD is and isn't, and that is what a real breeder of the GSD knows.
> 
> If you take the first course of action, you're destine to be a lowly back yard breeder undermining the longterm benefit of the GSD. If you elect the later course, you may very well be on your way to becoming a knowledgable breeder promoting the longterm sustainability of the breed we charish. Your choice, are you part of the problem or part of the solution?


Very well put - this is probably the best advice you could have received....I suggest you at least consider this and make an educated decision.


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## AgileGSD

Any breeding can have unforeseen complications and these are worth considering before you decide to breed your dog. Friends of mine had a litter over the summer. There were 11 puppies in the litter, the mother needed a c-section and then would not accept the puppies (this is not uncommon after c-sections). Newborn puppies need fed every 3-4 hours around the clock for the first few weeks. This meant they had to wake up every four hours to hand feed 11 puppies. This meant they had to wake up 2 hours early to have time to hand feed puppies before going to work in the morning. This meant that they had to leave work for almost 2 hours in the middle of the day to hand feed 11 puppies. This meant that their life for almost a month totally revolved around when the puppies were last fed and when they needed fed the next time. They luckily had three people in the house who could take turns with the feeding and one of them had an understanding enough boss to allow them to leave in the middle of the day. Still they lost a lot of sleep, had a lot of unpaid time off of work and spent thousands on vet and health care for the mother and puppies. 
I had a litter get sick once and it cost a lot of money, a lot of unpaid time off of work and a lot of sleepless nights to get the puppies through it. One of the puppies didn't make it and at 6 weeks old, she already had a name, a personality and a very excited new owner. It was beyond heartbreaking. I had a puppy in a litter with hydrocephalus ("water on the brain"), which is a birth defect that can happen in any breed. For such puppies, there is no cure. The choice is between keeping a very special needs dog in your family until their quality of life starts to diminish or euthanizing an otherwise healthy puppy because they have brain damage. 

There are all sorts of unforeseeable things which can go wrong when you breed dogs and most of them will cost a lot of time and money to remedy. Even if everything goes right and admittedly it often does, you still have to find responsible homes for the puppies. This means lots of time answering phone calls, emails and arranging visits. And turning down homes which aren't right for the breed or your puppies. The days of people making lots of money selling pet puppies have largely passed. People are now lucky to recover the costs of the litter and very often breeders still have puppies for sale at 4-6 months old. Then there is the issue of puppies that don't work out in their new homes. Do you take them back, keeping an extra dog (possibly with behavioral issues) for the next 10+ years if you can't rehome them? Or do you let your puppy be passed from owner to owner, surrendered to the shelter or euthanized?

Someone I worked with years ago had a litter out of her two GSDs. Both dogs were a bit of a mishmash of German, American and pet lines. She didn't know much or anything about their siblings, pedigrees, parents or lines at all. Her BF wanted the dogs to have puppies, so they were going to have puppies. She had a litter of 10 and everything went fine. She sold them all to pet homes. Of the 10 puppies, more than half of them were PTS due to uncontrollable seizures by time they were 3 years old. That is a lot of devastated owners. And one was returned as an adult because his ears didn't stand up. And before you think the problem was"inbreeding", the pedigrees were very outcrossed. It was just a bad, bad combination. For all anyone knew, both parents may have had epileptic littermates. 

I very much wanted to breed my first GSD girl. She is super smart, so easy to train and so driven. Just exactly what I like in a dog and exactly what I think GSDs should be. When I got her, I already had years of training experience and years of researching GSDs. I thought I would breed her at some point. I was encouraged to breed her to my American line male by some local breeders. Good thing I didn't though because ended up epileptic with uncontrollable seizures. No way to know that without waiting until the dog is older. My girl had a sibling with epilepsy. Her mother at some point ended up developing EPI. And she had a sibling with HD. She's also intolerant of same sex dogs living in the same household as her. One of her sisters ended up with DM. At 13 years old, I believe she is the only one left from the litter. I didn't know all of that when I was considering breeding her though. Ultimately, I decided not to breed her because I wasn't sure there would be an appropriate market for her puppies. She was pretty awesome at agility but there are a lot of people who buy GSDs for agility. She was not show quality, so her puppies wouldn't be sold for the show ring. I don't do SchH, so chances were fair that SchH people wouldn't be interested in her puppies. Her breeder had bred the litter she came from to get another agility dog. She had a ton of time and money into the puppies (10 of them!) and ended up having a really hard time selling them. Only a couple went to performance homes, she kept two and the rest were sold to pet homes. I didn't want to breed GSDs _for_ pet homes. IME _appropriate_ pet homes of the breed are not all that plentiful. They are big, strong dogs who can be prone to dog aggression and territorial tendencies. They need a lot of early training and socialization. For the right homes, they are awesome dogs but for the wrong homes, they are a disaster. 

And one big thing that jumps out at me now, is how much I didn't know then. I thought I knew enough about pedigrees to make an informed choice but I really didn't.

Dog breeding is not easy, at least if you want to do it right. It requires a lot of research and a lot of knowledge about the breed and different lines. It isn't wrong to want to breed dogs at all. But done right, breeding requires you be actively involved with dogs. Get your dog out there and "do stuff" with her. Get obedience, agility, rally, herding, tracking titles on her. Find some UKC conformation shows and show her. Research breeders who's dogs you admire and connect with them. Ask a lot of questions and listen to what they have to say. Look at your dog from an unbiased viewpoint. What structural areas is she strong in? What would need to be improved? What are her strong and weak temperament traits? What about her siblings? Her parents? Their siblings? And of course, do the appropriate health checks. Hips, elbows and vWD at the very least. I'd also prefer yearly CERFs since pannus is a problem in the breed. Hopefully siblings of her's will be health checked too. It may turn out that once you know more, you won't feel that your girl is not really what you want for breeding. But getting the titles and the experience will extremely beneficial anyway. You'll now have good contacts, you'll have a better idea of where you'd like your foundation breeding dog to come from and you'll know vastly more about temperament and structure. 

This website has a wealth of information on genetics and breeding. It may be a good place for you to start: Breeding Better Dogs This page also have a good article on breeding for working temperament and a really good article on matching puppies with owners:Writings: Sprite Working Belgian Tervuren


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## MaggieRoseLee

Tara said:


> I have a big family 12 aunts and uncles , 7 of them want puppies and my granny wants one , and il keep 2 for sure. That's if she has 10.
> 
> Anyone answer my question ?


That sounds like WONDERFUL homes that could go to people that are currently breeding other wonderful dogs (how about using the person you got your dog from?).

If you are able to educate yourself about all the genetics for generations on both sides of your dog and the male you want. Able to really prove your dog is better (not just a good dog, most of us have good dogs) than most others so you want more of them.... and you get the hips/elbows x-rayed and good puppy warranties set up (German Shepherd Puppy Health Warranty, by Wildhaus Kennels ) ... MAYBE in a few years you'll be ready to breed. 

Hopefully you are still reading and didn't stop cause we hurt your feelings. Because the fact is I bet you do have a good dog you love and would have a litter of more good pups. 

That's NOT the issue. The issue can be seen in our rescue section. GSD Rescue Information - German Shepherd Dog Forums Have you had a chance to spend a few days looking at all those other really 'good' dogs? 

I know, absolutely 100% know that the only way a dog I'm responsible for, or a puppy I breed... or a puppy from THOSE puppies...... will never never never never be put down in a shelter is by not breeding at all. So though I have top winning CHAMPION GSD's, they are spayed neutered! Cause I know I don't have the resources to be breed properly to avoid the scary genetics, or resources to take puppies back when there are problems with their homes. 

I personally can hardly wrap my mind around the fact we in the USA ALLOW millions (yes that is right, MILLIONS) of wonderful, happy and healthy dogs to be killed every year because there are not enough responsible pet owners for all the puppies we irresponsibly allow to be born each and every year. 

Have you had a chance to look at http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html because these are what we should be looking for in a breeder or when thinking of becoming a breeder. 

Frankly, it's way easier to find a good breeder then breed!


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## shannonrae

Samba said:


> There are a bunch of wonderful German Shepherds in rescue right now who would make great pets. It would be so awesome if, instead of adding to the pet population, all the people in your family adopted a rescue! I have four rescue dogs right now and they are AMAZING dogs.



:toasting::toasting:
Best post yet!


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## wolfspirit

Tara, I am from England and believe me Ireland has a serious dog problem. Hundreds of unwanted puppies get shipped over to England from Ireland every week because there aren't enough homes for them. 

I can understand that you love your girl and want to keep a part of her etc but wouldn't it be a more wonderful legacy for her if instead of adding to the problem she persuaded 7 more people to go and give their heart to a dog that has no one? :wub:


If you do decide to breed against all the advice, then I would get her hips tested (you don't want to be breeding a dog with bad hips as it's going to cost you thousands) and wait until she is at least 2/3 years and find a stud who has also had all the health tests. Not just your friends dog because you think he looks nice....


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## Cassidy's Mom

Tara said:


> So does anyone have a answer to my question ?


Somebody already answered your question:



gsdraven said:


> She should be at least 2 years old. Health tested, hips checked and preferably titled in something to show she can work like the breed was meant too.


If all those people want a puppy just like Tara, why don't they go to the breeder you got her from?


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## lhczth

Tara said:


> Just looking some tips here.
> 
> What's the perfect age to start?
> 
> As for a stud dog what should I look out for ?
> 
> Only want one litter out of my girl then she's getting neutered.


No earlier than two and preferably closer to 3. You want, at the minimum, to x-ray and certify the hips/elbows in your female. 

Do you know the lines of your female? This will have a lot to do with the male you chose. I would find a male that compliments your female that has been health tested and preferably tested in work in some capacity. 

Even if you have all of the puppies spoken for and are doing this for yourself, you still want to bring healthy puppies into the world. If you have a relationship with Tara's breeder that would be a good place to start getting information. Get out to shows and other types of competitions. Do something with Tara like obedience, agility, tracking, etc to "test" her overall soundness in temperament. You have time until she will be old enough to breed. This will also get you around other Shepherd people so you can see the males that might be available. Talk to people, listen and learn. Then when the time comes you will be able to make the best choice for Tara and yourself.

Something to consider, although it isn't that common, bitches do die during whelping. Make sure you have a very good veterinarian/surgeon around in case there are problems.


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## bocron

gsdraven said:


> Also, females get spayed. Males are neutered.


I'm in agreement with everything else you said, but this one line .

Either term is technically correct for either sex. The word spay is actually latin (spathe) or french (espeer) for "to cut with a sword" (I'm paraphrasing), so is by definition what is done. The term neuter means to remove sexual organs. Both terms work either way but people have for some reason have assigned them as gender related terms.

The vet I worked for back when I was in high school/college was a grammar nut and loved to explain this to everyone.

Oh, and Tara regardless of all the other reasons to breed or not to breed, be ready. I have a friend who just had their first litter (Kkl1 dam and sire, etc) and the girl delivered 12 healthy puppies about a week ago. Needless to say they are in a panic since they only expected 6-8 pups at the most!


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## Emoore

The only thing I have to add, if you're still reading and you're still set on breeding your dog, is to get deposits from all those people who supposedly want puppies.

My in-laws bred their dog years ago because they had SOOOO many people who said they wanted one of his puppies. They ended up having a litter of 14 and _none _the friends and family members who had said they wanted one actually stepped up and got one. They ended up selling most of them in the newspaper but 2 didn't sell and they still own them . 

Even if you plan on giving the pups to your relatives instead of selling them, go ahead an get them to come up with a hundred bucks for shots, worming, and vet care before you breed your dog. I'll bet that when you start asking friends and family for earnest money to show they're serious and to help care for mom and litter, they'll quickly and quietly disappear.


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## Lucy Dog

Why does everyone with a perfect 4 or 6 or whatever month old puppy feel the need to breed their puppy and then have her spayed after that one litter?

If it's not money, what makes people think they need to breed their female that one time and give the puppies out to their friends and family? 

It makes absolutely no sense to me. If you have that perfect puppy than just go back to the breeder you got your puppy from and have your friends and family get a puppy from the same bloodlines. What am I missing here? It's like every month or so, someone posts the same exact question.


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## Lucy Dog

W.Oliver said:


> This should be a sticky thread on the genisis of a BYB.........


That is actually a really good idea. These types of questions are asked all the time and something like this would probably save a lot of the same repetitive type responses and threads.


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## Emoore

Lucy Dog said:


> That is actually a really good idea. These types of questions are asked all the time and something like this would probably save a lot of the same repetitive type responses and threads.


It'll never work. Everybody is convinced that their situation is unique. They have frozen semen from their deceased male, they're in another country, all of their relatives think they want one, their dog is a "rare color." Everybody's special and their precious pups will _never_ end up in a shelter like everybody else's precious pups.


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## Dejavu

I agree with most of what people have already said. And please PLEASE be aware that bad things CAN and DO happen to both the mom and the puppies if you do decide to breed by yourself!

I don't live in US, I live in Mexico. We don't have many "professional" breeders here, and if we do they're only in big cities and cost and arm and a leg to even contact them, so most of the breeding comes from, yes, backyard breeders.
And Mexico as any and every other country does have a problem with the dog population! And we don't many rescues either, so most dogs end up in the street.

Anyway, let me tell you my story.

I have a gorgeous GSD female who I adopted from someone who was looking for a home for 2 puppies. I already had a GSD mix male that I had also adopted from another person who was desperate to get rid of her puppies.
We had the male neutered obviously, cause I didn't want puppies by accident.
Then suddenly, when my girl was 2, I started seeing her tummy was getting bigger. What was going on?? She was pregnant.
It turns out the vet didn't remove "everything" so my male wasn't really neutered!! 

Ok, so I took my male to a different vet (who did it properly this time!), the puppies were already on their way so there was nothing I could do but find new loving homes for each of them. My brothers and friends were excited, they all wanted the puppies who weren't even born yet.
My girl's x-rays were normal, no HD, nothing bad, she was doing well.
The one morning I saw she was acting weird and there were green stains all over. She had a miscarriage and lost 6 puppies. One by one I saw them not make it. I never felt so powerless, resuscitation was useless, the vet being there was useless. I still have nightmares and nervous breakdowns when I remember that day. I shiver and cry nonstop, like I'm doing right now.

I still think it's a miracle I didn't lose my girl too!
She was in very bad shape and of course I ran to the vet and just my luck, their x-rays were broken so I had to wait after the weekend to see if she didn't have any more puppies. They examined her by hand and injected oxytocyn (spelling??) in case there were more babies. Nothing happened, no more puppies so they said ok, let's wait til Monday (this was a Friday) or if you see something weird.
Well, she got better, and on Monday they still had their x-rays broken.

On Tuesday, guess what?? A healthy puppy was born.

The vet couldn't explain what had just happened. Of course by then she could FINALLY be x-rayed and everything looked fine and no more puppies!
But I had to separate them after a week, mom was a bit weak and the baby got dehydrated. She almost died on me too!
As others have said, I had to bottle feed her every 3-4 hours, I barely slept for a month. And this was just ONE puppy!!

I kept her, she was my miracle puppy.

My strong little one made it, and she's one healthy puppy now. Of course she was spayed too!
And despite of people telling me often "Your dog is gorgeous! I want a puppy if you breed her!" I just tell them I have no plans for doing such thing.

And I don't. I don't ever want to go through such a traumatizing experience ever again.

And I would definitely recommend that you not even try this if you're not experienced. For the sake of your beloved dog, the puppies and your own sanity.


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## Lucy Dog

The worst part is that people don't even know their dogs personality at 6 months and they still feel the need to breed them because "she/he's a great dog". Who doesn't have a great dog or puppy at 6 months old?? I mean, they're just goofy little puppies. 

What happens with this great dog grows up and has fear issues, or anxiety issues, or aggression issues, or anything that would not make a good breeding dog. Do you really want to pass this type of temperament on?

Forget the titles, the ofa's, the bloodlines, and everything else. If it's not about the money, what makes the average dog owner think that they have such a great breeding prospect at such a young age? It blows my mind how many people think this way.


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## AgileGSD

MaggieRoseLee said:


> I know, absolutely 100% know that the only way a dog I'm responsible for, or a puppy I breed... or a puppy from THOSE puppies...... will never never never never be put down in a shelter is by not breeding at all. So though I have top winning CHAMPION GSD's, they are spayed neutered! Cause I know I don't have the resources to be breed properly to avoid the scary genetics, or resources to take puppies back when there are problems with their homes.
> 
> I personally can hardly wrap my mind around the fact we in the USA ALLOW millions (yes that is right, MILLIONS) of wonderful, happy and healthy dogs to be killed every year because there are not enough responsible pet owners for all the puppies we irresponsibly allow to be born each and every year.





MaggieRoseLee said:


> I know, absolutely 100% know that the only way a dog I'm responsible for, or a puppy I breed... or a puppy from THOSE puppies...... will never never never never be put down in a shelter is by not breeding at all. So though I have top winning CHAMPION GSD's, they are spayed neutered! Cause I know I don't have the resources to be breed properly to avoid the scary genetics, or resources to take puppies back when there are problems with their homes.


 Luckily not everyone involved with dogs feels this way or we wouldn't have any well bred dogs at all. Everyone has to start some where and no breed has a excess of knowledgeable breeders. I think most people like the OP mean well and are likely surprised at how very opposed to breeding owners of purebred dogs can be. However, I also suspect that most don't have any idea about what all goes into breeding quality dogs or what can happen when things don't work out. 

As to the OP, very often all the friends and family who say now "Ohhh I'd love to have one of her puppies" don't pan out when it's time to actually take the puppies home. The litter my GSD girl came from, the one they had a hard time placing? They had a bunch of friends/family who were supposed to get puppies prior to the breeding. All backed out for one reason or another when the time came though. My friends with the c-section/hand fed litter? They also had a list of family and friends wanting puppies, only one actually ended up taking one home and nearly returned him because he was "too much dog" for them.


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## selzer

Great post AgileGSD, 

To the OP:

You have two years to LEARN everything there is to know about GSDs, breeding, and training and showing dogs.

Since you only want one litter, I doubt it makes sense for you to do all of this.

You will keep one or two of the puppies. Will you need one litter out of each of those?

I agree with the others about friends and family crawling into the woodwork once the puppies are on the ground. I have gotten two puppies back since I have started, one of those was from my brother.

But if you really, really want to breed your bitch, there are things you really should do in the next two years:

1. Join a kennel club, volunteer to work at shows, etc. Get to know top notch breeders, and try to find someone to mentor you. The person does not need to be in the same breed, but has to have many years of knowledge breeding dogs and be willing to impart that knowledge.

2. Buy a ton of books and read them all, study them. Books on GSDs, The standard both in your country and in Germany. Read books on breeding, bloodlines, genetics, training.

3. Join a training club or get in dog classes. Train your girl. Train her in obedience. Train her in something fun like agility (puppy for now). Train her to title her in something, obedience or herding (sounds like that might be available), or some other venue. With other breeds, this may not be so important, but GSDs NEED to be trained, and breeders HAVE to have more than just a cursory knowledge of sit and down, etc.

4. Read and research everything in your location about shelters, overpopulation, laws for breeding, rescues. You might even consider fostering a rescue dog until a home can be found for it, and then maybe fostering a bitch in whelp. This can give you a good understanding of whether this is something you want your girl to go through, and if so, it will give you some experience. 

After two years, when you have titled your dog in something, 

and tried her in different venues, 

and have performed the pertenant health screenings, 

and have learned the bloodlines and genetics and can honestly assess your bitches strengths and weaknesses, so you can match her to a good dog, 

and have lined up some real live people and cultivated friendships with people who can give you assistance if you need it in whelping and raising the litter, 

and have selected and been approved by a stud dog owner to use their dog,

and have set up an area in your home for dam and pups for as long as those pups remain,

and you have some understanding about how to screen buyers for your pups, 

and understand any laws concerning breeding and selling puppies that effect you,

Then, good luck breeding your girl.


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## Ruthie

I think some of you really need to think about the old saying. "You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar." Shame on you.

Tara, I am sorry that people were so rude to you when you posted looking for help. Lisa's (Lhctzh) post was great. If you don't know already, Lisa is a knowledgeable and experienced breeder.

As she said, if you really want to go ahead with breeding Tara, you need to make sure that you are breeding healthy puppies, both mentally and physically. Wouldn't you feel really bad if you passed puppies on to your family that cost them $100's or $1000's because of health problems or legal problems if they bite someone out of fear?

At the minimum you should make sure she has hips and elbows checked and you work her and have her temperament evaluated by someone who has enough experience to know what they are talking about. THEN you can consider what would be a good match for her. You will need to find someone who knows about GSD pedigrees who can help you find a good match. Even if it turns out that your girl is awesome, if you pick the wrong sire you can still wind up with some bad pups.

Most people who are just looking for a puppy from their dog are not willing to put the time, effort, and expense into doing things the RIGHT way. That is why people are telling you to just spay her and forget the litter.


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## selzer

whatever, I am guessing a few people might not be all that good at catching flies, even if they how to do it.


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## Ruthie

selzer said:


> whatever, I am guessing a few people might not be all that good at catching flies, even if they how to do it.


Sorry, selzer. Didn't read your post before I posted. You were nice and helpful too.


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## selzer

I thought that the posts in general have been kind of harsh too, but people are passionate about shepherds. 

A couple of people were pretty insensed that people look at their five or six month old puppy and wonder how to go about breeding. 

Well, I personally think that it is better for people to think about it now, when they have the opportunity to learn what they need to know and prepare. 

What makes me toss my cookies and snap at the OP is when they say things like, "my son left the gate open, and now we think Gracie is pregnant, when will we find out if she is, or how long are they pregnant? or, we weren't careful enough and our girl is going to have babies, she is due tomorrow, how do I....???

By then it is water under the bridge, but I really prefer that people put thought into on the front end, and then letting them know what it entails, they have a better idea of whether or not it is really a good idea.


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## cliffson1

Ruthie,
I agree with you and think your post was helpful to the poster. I know certain lines here in the United States who are quote reputable breeders who don't always follow these "rules" that make a reputable breeder. They breed dogs with no working titles, they breed dogs before 2 years old,(Heck some of the dogs are Champions at 15,16 months of age and they DO breed the dog), some don't post OFA certified hips, and yet many people on this board own dogs out of these breeders and some ARE these breeders. Why don't we preach to them??? Can't their dogs have health and temperament issues by their breeding practices. The lady asked for help.....help to me isn't telling her to spay the dog and you don't know diddly squat about the dog. Geesh! 
Ruthie, I think your post was helpful but some of the others.....?????.


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## selzer

For that matter, five or six months might be the most reasonable time to think it. 

If you bring the puppy home at eight weeks, and spend the next month or so potty training and house training, and getting them started in puppy classes, and getting the shots and all. Five or six months old, the visit to the breeders is still fresh in your mind. You saw all the cute puppies climbing all over each other. And maybe as you peeled off the bills you thought, boy this is a cool little racket, how hard could this be? We love puppies...

Anyhow, once that puppy starts getting everything, and is just beautiful, and such, that thought comes back and you start toying with it. She is awesome, and she will make great puppies. How do I find out more.

You ask on an internet chat room, and when everyone is hostile about it, most people just get defensive and hostile back, and those posts and threads can be entertaining for some, but really sad. 

I think that most people WANT to do things the right way and just want to be told how to go about it and even where to start to find information. THIS IS NOT A CRIME folks, and certainly not the moment for unsolicited advice about spaying and neutering. 

No they are not thinking about dogs in shelters and pet overpopulation, they are not thinking about possible health problems, or their bitch dying. But we do not have to beat them over the head with it, we just need to mention it, and let them make their own decision. 

I think we should do our best to help people understand that it really is a lot more than buying a kiddie pool and waiting for people to show up and purchase them. Get them started on the right track, and many of them will on their own decide that it is too much for them.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Ruthie said:


> ]
> As she said, if you really want to go ahead with breeding Tara, you need to make sure that you are breeding healthy puppies, both mentally and physically. Wouldn't you feel really bad if you passed puppies on to your family that cost them $100's or $1000's because of health problems or legal problems if they bite someone out of fear?


I always look at this as don't you feel badly for the dogs who are bred that have health issues that make their lives more difficult, shorter, or that they cannot survive with, and temperament issues that pretty much guarantee that unless someone has experience or patience or both, that something not great is awaiting these dogs...

And in both cases the dogs with these behavioral and health things, who do not have people who are prepared mentally, financially, or having the education (not formal, but interest) to deal with these problems. 

Those are the things that I would feel badly about, too.


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## Lucy Dog

cliffson1 said:


> Ruthie,
> I agree with you and think your post was helpful to the poster. I know certain lines here in the United States who are quote reputable breeders who don't always follow these "rules" that make a reputable breeder. They breed dogs with no working titles, they breed dogs before 2 years old,(Heck some of the dogs are Champions at 15,16 months of age and they DO breed the dog), some don't post OFA certified hips, and yet many people on this board own dogs out of these breeders and some ARE these breeders. Why don't we preach to them??? Can't their dogs have health and temperament issues by their breeding practices. The lady asked for help.....help to me isn't telling her to spay the dog and you don't know diddly squat about the dog. Geesh!
> Ruthie, I think your post was helpful but some of the others.....?????.


Selling a puppy from a dog with no titles, no hip x-rays, and bred at a year and a half old, but from good lines and you'd consider that a reputable breeder?


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## Jax08

The way I read Cliff's post was that they AREN"T reputable breeders but people on this board are buying dogs from them.


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## selzer

cliffson1 said:


> Ruthie,
> I agree with you and think your post was helpful to the poster. I know certain lines here in the United States who are quote reputable breeders who don't always follow these "rules" that make a reputable breeder. They breed dogs with no working titles, they breed dogs before 2 years old,(Heck some of the dogs are Champions at 15,16 months of age and they DO breed the dog), some don't post OFA certified hips, and yet many people on this board own dogs out of these breeders and some ARE these breeders. Why don't we preach to them??? Can't their dogs have health and temperament issues by their breeding practices. The lady asked for help.....help to me isn't telling her to spay the dog and you don't know diddly squat about the dog. Geesh!
> Ruthie, I think your post was helpful but some of the others.....?????.


Some people breed dogs without titles.

Some people breed dogs prior to two years, with only prelims done or with registries that certify before two years,

Some of the people breeding dogs are not perfect and do not have all their ducks in a row.

In fact, there is no breeder on this site or anywhere that has the stamp of approval for breeding by every individual. Sorry, some do not think anyone should breed a dog so long as their are dogs in rescue or in shelters.

But, do you want to say, boy you have a pretty puppy, breeding is the bomb, go to it, good luck!

The one comment, that the op just wants one litter, is one that screams this is a person who is not in it for the breed, to produce great puppies, and who wants to go the whole route of being the best kind of breeder. 

But, maybe this person just needs to be educated. How do you get someone educated about the breed, about breeding, about training, and all the rest? Maybe give them an ideal list of what they should strive for. Maybe a minimum list of what they should do prior to breeding their dog. And maybe the list of requirements that you have for the breeder of the next puppy you intend to purchase.

A person who has never bred GSDs is already at a disadvantage for finding the best buyers (even if they believe they will all go to family an friends). That person will do a whole lot better if their knowledge is strong, both in books and in experience. How much training experience/knowledge can you get in two years? Hard to say, but a whole lot more than if we suggest nothing.


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## Ruthie

selzer said:


> ...I think we should do our best to help people understand that it really is a lot more than buying a kiddie pool and waiting for people to show up and purchase them. Get them started on the right track, and many of them will on their own decide that it is too much for them.


Exactly! :thumbup:

Some of these posts came across as very arrogant and judgmental. If it where me, I would just ignore them and do what I was going to do anyway. If someone takes the time to explain how to do things the RIGHT way, I would be much more open to listen. Like Selzer said, most people DO want to do the right thing. I think Tara does too or he/she wouldn't have even bothered to ask.


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## Lucy Dog

Jax08 said:


> The way I read Cliff's post was that they AREN"T reputable breeders but people on this board are buying dogs from them.


Ok... that makes a little more sense. Maybe I just misunderstood what he was trying to say. I know Cliff knows his stuff, so I had to ask.

And just because people on this board are buying from breeders like that doesn't make it right. If someone asked my opinion on a breeder that breeds this way, i'd give them the same opinion as I did to the OP... that they shouldn't.


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## Castlemaid

Also, if we commented negatively on the "breeders" that breed without all the knowledge and experience and health testing that we always preach about, that would be breeder bashing, and that is not allowed on the board.


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## Jessiewessie99

Why do I have a feeling the OP is a troll?

Otherwise, people were trying to tell the OP what is part of breeding and the best thing for her(based on the OPs posts) was to spay her girl and tell her to have her relatives to adopt or go to the person she got her dog from. And some even said what is necessary to be a good breeder, and the OP really didn't care of listen.


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## Good_Karma

I don't think she is a troll. I think she has good, if naive, intentions. I feel badly for her that she got a huge wake-up call, and probably does feel defensive and upset that she has been judged harshly. 

But her beliefs are not so uncommon. I am guessing that a large percentage of people think it's no big deal to have a litter from their female pet, just so that the dog or the children in the family can experience the "miracle of life." Niko was recently "propositioned" on Facebook from an old high school friend of mine who is in this exact situation. She has a female GSD and thinks Niko is beautiful. But we'd be fools to do such a thing, for more reasons than I care to list. Also, Niko has no testicles, which would make it MUCH harder to do. 

Thanks to those like Ruthie and Selzer and others who detailed all the hardships of producing a litter. I hope Tara is still reading. I hope we are also kind enough people to forgive her misconceptions and welcome her input on this forum in the future as she raises her beautiful dog.


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## AgileGSD

selzer said:


> A person who has never bred GSDs is already at a disadvantage for finding the best buyers (even if they believe they will all go to family an friends). That person will do a whole lot better if their knowledge is strong, both in books and in experience. How much training experience/knowledge can you get in two years? Hard to say, but a whole lot more than if we suggest nothing.


 It is also worth saying that you don't have to breed right at 2 years old. That is the minimum age to consider breeding. Often it is preferable to wait until between 3-4 years old because it gives more time for research, titling and to see if the dog develops later onset health problems.

If I had to make a "to-do" list for people interested in breeding, it might look like this:

*1. Research, research, research!* Joining discussion groups is certainly a start. But it's just a start. Go to shows and watch your breed's judging. Go to training clubs (SchH, Obedience, agility) and talk with people who have experience with your breed. What are some common health and temperament issues? Why did they choose the lines that they did? What breeders would they suggest you contact? Read books on behavior, structure and training. Join a parent club (UGSDA, GSDCA and/or USA) and read their publications. If you have a regional club in your area, join that too as it will put you in contact with a lot of other people who have your breed in your area. Look at as many breeders dogs as you can. Get a feel for what you like and what you don't like. Contact nearby breeders with dogs you admire and ask if you could meet with them to see their dogs and talk to them about breeding.

*2. Experience. *Train and show your dog. Not because titles make a dog but because the experience of training and getting titles makes dog knowledgeable people. Titles on breeding dogs also helps attract the interest of more serious puppy buyers. Training and showing in multiple venues gives you a deeper look at your dog's temperament, which will help when it comes to making breeding choices. Set some goals for yourself and your dog. Maybe a UKC CH and some performance or working titles. For performance there is agility (venues include AKC, CPE, USDAA, NADAC, UKC), obedience (venues include AKC, UKC, USA, ASCA), rally (venues include AKC, UKC, ASCA, APDT) and flyball (venues include NAFA and U-Fli). For GSDs, working competitions there is protection sports (USA, DVG, UKC, NARA) and herding (AKC, ASCA, AHBA, USA). More than likely you will have a club in your area that does one or more of these things. Usually joining training clubs allows members to take classes at a discounted rate or for free. 

*3. Evaluate.* Getting a UKC CH is a good step towards evaluating your dog's structure. You will also want to ask other GSD breeders for their opinion of your dog (and don't be offended if they don't love everything about her). You will need to know these things to make good breeding choices. Poor structure can affect the dog's quality of life, even if they have good hips and elbows. Your dog should also have some amount of breed type. People's preferences in type vary greatly but a breeding dog should be recognizable as a GSD at first glance. The GSDCA Illustrated Standard is useful for learning about GSD structure: Illustrated Standard of the German Shepherd Dog

Evaluating temperament is a bit harder. The experience of training and showing will give you a good place to start though. How willing is your dog? Does your dog focus easily or not? Does anything scare or upset your dog? Will you dog continue working through difficult things or do they give up? Is your dog interested in tugging? Food? Chasing? Does your dog tolerate people well? Other dogs? What things would you change if you could about your dog's personality? You can also take the GSDCA Temperament Test, which can give you an idea of your dog's general soundness. Another idea is to ask a training director for a SchH club to evaluate her. And ask a herding instructor, experienced with tending breeds to evaluate her. No dog has a perfect temperament but if your dog has a major temperament faults per the breed standard, do not breed her. Breeding away from major temperament faults can take many, many generations and in that time, you will need to find homes for multiple puppies with undesirable temperaments. Major temperament faults in the GSD include nervousness, fear biting, shyness, sight sensitivity, sound sensitivity or dogs who are overly aggressive. At 2 years old, it will be time for hip and elbow xrays for OFA. Also have a blood test done to screen for vWD. And a CERF to screen for eye disorders such as Pannus (CERFs should be done yearly). If your dog does not pass these health clearances or develops a hereditary health issue which can't be screened for such as epilepsy, no matter how great she is in every other way do not breed her. She will very likely pass on these genetic disorders to at least some of her offspring. 

If after experience, research and evaluations your dog proves to be a good candidate for breeding, you now have the contacts to help you choose an appropriate stud dog and to help you find appropriate homes for the puppies. If she doesn't prove to be a good candidate for breeding, you now have the contacts to help you choose a foundation dog, the knowledge of what you ideally want in a breeding dog and enough experience that you will be able to buy a quality dog for breeding from a knowledgeable breeder.


Parent Club links:
UKC parent club:United German Shepherd Dog Alliance - Home
AKC parent club: Untitled Document
United Shutzhund Club America (USA): United Schutzhund Clubs of America - Join the USA

Find UKC clubs/events:
United Kennel Club: Home

Find AKC Clubs/Events:
American Kennel Club - Club Search and Directory

Find ASCA Events:
Australian Shepherd Club of America, Inc. | ASCA Information

Find other agility clubs/events:
Welcome to Canine Performance Events, Inc.

Welcome to USDAA

North American Dog Agility Council, Inc. (NADAC)

Other rally events:
Rally Obedience for All Dogs!

Find flyball clubs/events:
North American Flyball Association | About Flyball

The Ultimate Dogsport for Family and Fun: United Flyball League International :: The United Flyball League Inc. is an organization formed to promote and better the sport of Flyball.

Find other herding clubs/events:
AHBA

Find protection sports clubs/events:
United Schutzhund Clubs of America - For the German Shepherd Dog

DVG AMERICA Main Menu

More helpful dog breeding links:
Breeding Better Dogs

Writings: Sprite Working Belgian Tervuren

Newborn Puppies....Care of the Newborn puppy

Leerburg | Dog Training Articles


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## GSDElsa

This person is in Ireland remember.


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## cliffson1

Thanks, Justine!


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## doggiedad

"Ireland isn't as bad as America we actually have a Conscience when it
comes to training animals" from that statement alone you shouldn't breed.
are you in Ireland? did you buy your pup from a byb? also i noticed
in a previous post you said you're going to have your female neutered.
i don't think that's possible. having pups to romanticize your dogs
death is a stretch. leave the breeding to the pros. you're not going
to do the breed any good by breeding or does that matter to you?



Tara said:


> Haha stop making out as if I'm bad to dogs. I love dogs if you seen how spoilt my dog was you wouldn't say that , and
> 
> Ireland isn't as bad as America we actuly have a Conscience when it come to training animals ,
> 
> all the puppies will be giving to family members who are dog lovers, none will be in shelters.


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## doggiedad

:thumbup:



Lucy Dog said:


> Why does everyone with a perfect 4 or 6 or whatever month old puppy feel the need to breed their puppy and then have her spayed after that one litter?
> 
> If it's not money, what makes people think they need to breed their female that one time and give the puppies out to their friends and family?
> 
> It makes absolutely no sense to me. If you have that perfect puppy than just go back to the breeder you got your puppy from and have your friends and family get a puppy from the same bloodlines. What am I missing here? It's like every month or so, someone posts the same exact question.


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## Heagler870

I'm in no way a breeder but I once heard something like this. Please tell me if it's right or not. If you're a true breeder and not doing it for money but for the betterment of the genetics, you kind of "Break even" money wise when you sell your dogs? I've seen on the Animal Planet where breeders spend all sorts of money on their litters and the care of the dam and what not. To me it seems like if you take the proper care of the litter and dam you're going to be spending a lot anyways.


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## Lucy Dog

Heagler870 said:


> I'm in no way a breeder but I once heard something like this. Please tell me if it's right or not. If you're a true breeder and not doing it for money but for the betterment of the genetics, you kind of "Break even" money wise when you sell your dogs? I've seen on the Animal Planet where breeders spend all sorts of money on their litters and the care of the dam and what not. To me it seems like if you take the proper care of the litter and dam you're going to be spending a lot anyways.


I think if a breeder is doing the right thing with their dogs that they deserve extra money and wouldn't hold it against them. They don't have to break even and nothing more to make them a good breeder.

It costs money to provide a good diet, vet care, training, traveling, facilities, and so on. All of this stuff doesn't come free and all of which will and should be reflected in the price someone pays for a puppy. 

If a breeder is to make out more money than they put in than I don't see anything wrong with that as long as they're doing right by their dogs and bettering the breed. 

I place a high values on breeders that I would consider reputable and that's why I'm giving them my hard earned money for a product that they are selling. If they make more money than they put in, to do all the things I listed above, than that's fine with me. I chose to give them that money and buy from them because I want to support what they are doing with the breed.


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## cliffson1

I often wonder why everyone who has a computer and reads forums and OWNS a German Shepherd becomes an expert on breeding???????


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## JakodaCD OA

people are going to breed who are going to breed. 

I am one who doesn't think titles are the be all end all of getting a good dog. This person lives in Ireland, of which I don't know much about, but no matter.

IF the OP, goes about it responsibly, health testing is big on my list, what is the big deal if she bred her dog (at the appropriate time & health testing has proven good), ONCE, (as she says), keeps a couple, and hands the rest off to relatives and friends? 

Yes, she should take into consideration the risks, etc, but it's her risk.

This certainly doesn't affect anyone here personally, and yes your opinion is your opinion. 

Some have answered her questions and given her things to think about, others well, again your opinions are your opinions.

Newsflash, there are worse things going on out there with dogs and rotten breeding practices, and the cycle will never stop giving someone info is one thing, bashing them for even thinking about it is another. 

Just my opinion


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## VomBlack

JakodaCD OA said:


> people are going to breed who are going to breed.
> 
> I am one who doesn't think titles are the be all end all of getting a good dog. This person lives in Ireland, of which I don't know much about, but no matter.
> 
> IF the OP, goes about it responsibly, health testing is big on my list, what is the big deal if she bred her dog (at the appropriate time & health testing has proven good), ONCE, (as she says), keeps a couple, and hands the rest off to relatives and friends?
> 
> Yes, she should take into consideration the risks, etc, but it's her risk.
> 
> This certainly doesn't affect anyone here personally, and yes your opinion is your opinion.
> 
> Some have answered her questions and given her things to think about, others well, again your opinions are your opinions.
> 
> Newsflash, there are worse things going on out there with dogs and rotten breeding practices, and the cycle will never stop giving someone info is one thing, bashing them for even thinking about it is another.
> 
> Just my opinion


:thumbup:

Nicely worded.


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## holland

That was a good post


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

cliffson1 said:


> I often wonder why everyone who has a computer and reads forums and OWNS a German Shepherd becomes an expert on breeding???????


Maybe they are posting what they would look for as consumers? I don't know specifically but that's often how I read things. Not so much what they would do if, but what they are looking for from? Maybe? That's a guess. 

I always look at it from the dog's point of view (their pain from health issues, their discomfort from temperament issues) so I am waaaaaaaaaaaaaay outside the demographic! :rofl:


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## Emoore

JakodaCD OA said:


> This certainly doesn't affect anyone here personally, and yes your opinion is your opinion.


It doesn't affect me personally because the OP is half a world away from me, put I am so sodding _tired_ of pulling backyard-bred GSDs out of animal shelters. I'm even more tired of having to tell shelter workers, "I'm sorry, all our foster homes are completely full; you'll have to go ahead and put him down."

Just today I picked up a young WGSL GSD as my new foster. His owners had dumped him off at the shelter with his registration papers and his grandparents are all OFA'ed or a-stamped, but his parents are not. There were some x-rays of his hips because he had been hit by a car. The first thing I saw when I looked at the X-ray was not the hairline crack on his pelvis, but the fact that the poor thing has basically no hip sockets! This poor guy has hip dysplasia because some backyard breeder cared more about getting a litter of pups than about the dogs' well-being. 

Maybe I shouldn't care about the OP's particular situation, though; since there's really no chance I'll have to deal with the offspring.


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## JakodaCD OA

emoore, I feel your pain it's a never ending cycle that will never stop unfortunately.


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## AgileGSD

Emoore said:


> This poor guy has hip dysplasia because some backyard breeder cared more about getting a litter of pups than about the dogs' well-being.


 HD like most genetic diseases do not currently have a DNA test, so there is no way to guarantee that it won't pop up in any given litter. They are working on a genetic test for HD but it's probably many years done the road before it will be accurate and available. A dog having HD is not a sign of an uncaring breeder. 

There are plenty of dogs from pet bred litters that don't end up in shelters or rescue. The fact that the breeder isn't super knowledgeable doesn't automatically mean the puppies will get bad owners who will dump them. And sometimes the fact that a dog has a knowledgeable breeder doesn't mean they will get great owners. I have known pet breeders and farmers breeding working dogs (with BCs and Aussies) who take dogs from their breedings back if things don't work out. I've known pet owners who had one litter and ended keeping all the puppies or giving just a couple to friends or relatives. And unfortunately I have also known breeders who are active in dogs and do everything else right but won't take dogs back from their breedings or take them back and euthanize them. It really isn't that black and white of an issue.

To be honest, blaming the breeder of shelter/rescue dogs is sort of a cop out. How about blaming the owner who took on a dog that they couldn't or wouldn't commit to? For getting a dog and failing to properly train and socialize it? Sure sometimes unforeseen things happen. People lose their jobs and homes. Two dogs don't get along, etc. But I doubt that accounts for the majority of dogs in shelters or rescues.


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## Samba

I am not concerned about it really. I think with the awesome training conscience in Ireland, an incredible breeding conscience must surely exist also. There won't be any issues. 

It is true that nobody meets everyone's criteria for being a suitable breeder and no doubt many breeders of various sorts end up contributing to the population of unwanted pets.


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## Lucy Dog

But which type of dog is more likely going to end up in a shelter? 

A puppy who was purchased from a breeder who does health checks, trains, works, etc. or a dog who was given to someone by a family member or family friend who decided to breed their dog that one time and give out it's puppies to whoever wanted them?

There are too many BYB and potential BYB's like the OP out there. There are even more puppies and dogs in shelters from people like the OP being euthanized like emoore mentioned. So why not discourage someone like this to absolutely NOT breed their dog no matter what part of the world they're in?


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## Whiteshepherds

AgileGSD said:


> To be honest, blaming the breeder of shelter/rescue dogs is sort of a cop out. How about blaming the owner who took on a dog that they couldn't or wouldn't commit to? For getting a dog and failing to properly train and socialize it? Sure sometimes unforeseen things happen. People lose their jobs and homes. Two dogs don't get along, etc. But I doubt that accounts for the majority of dogs in shelters or rescues.


I agree. It would be interesting to know how many dogs end up in shelters and rescue because of genetic health and temperament issues, and how many end up there because of irresponsible owners.


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## Emoore

But I think part of the reason owners are so irresponsible is because the barrier to entry is so low. When it's easy to get a dog for $250 out of Craigslist and the "breeder" doesn't ask any questions except whether or not your check will clear, you end up with the type of owner who can easily dispose of the dog. 

When you have to save your $$ for a while to afford the dog and go through an interview with a responsible breeder, you're less likely to be the kind of person who disposes of an inconvenient dog. A responsible breeder will take back their offspring when the buyer can no longer keep the animal; a byb will give you directions to the nearest shelter and wish you good luck.


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## Samba

Well, if you bred your dog and all the progeny stayed in the family and you took back any that they decided they could not deal with any longer... then you would sort of be a closed system.

I have a friend who bred a litter once. She kept them all. Needless to say, she has never done a breeding again.


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## MaggieRoseLee

Emoore said:


> But I think part of the reason owners are so irresponsible is because the barrier to entry is so low. When it's easy to get a dog for $250 out of Craigslist and the "breeder" doesn't ask any questions except whether or not your check will clear, you end up with the type of owner who can easily dispose of the dog.
> 
> *When you have to save your $$ for a while to afford the dog and go through an interview with a responsible breeder, you're less likely to be the kind of person who disposes of an inconvenient dog. A responsible breeder will take back their offspring when the buyer can no longer keep the animal; a byb will give you directions to the nearest shelter and wish you good luck*.


:thumbup: :wub:


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## Whiteshepherds

Emoore said:


> When you have to save your $$ for a while to afford the dog and go through an interview with a responsible breeder, you're less likely to be the kind of person who disposes of an inconvenient dog. A responsible breeder will take back their offspring when the buyer can no longer keep the animal; a byb will give you directions to the nearest shelter and wish you good luck.


I understand what you're saying but disagree in part. 

You're making the assumption that the family who can only afford to pay $250 for a dog is less responsible or committed to their dogs than the family that can pay $2000. *If this is true, shelter and rescue dogs should cost hundreds of dollars more to weed out the very same people who will buy dogs on Craigs List. *

Money isn't a good measure of character. There are plenty of people in the world willing to fork over thousands of dollars for a dog and dispose of it when it's no longer easy or fun to take care of, and there a hundreds of very poor people who would give up taking care of themselves before they'd stop caring for their dogs. 

I do agree that a responsible breeder will take back offspring and too many BYB's forget who you are when you leave their driveway with the pup.


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## selzer

I do not think titles are the end all either. I would buy a dog from an untitled dog, but that would depend on the knowledge and experience of the breeder. 

My suggestion in getting the dog titled in something is to give the individual some basic knowledge of what it takes to do this. Ireland has dog shows and kennel clubs, my guess is they have training clubs and trials. 

Whatever title you are going for, the dog has to be judged by strangers who do not have any stake in it. The dog has to perform the tasks required, therefore the dog is trainable. The dog will be around other dogs and people, without freaking out, therefore the dog probably does not have the worst kind of weak nerves. The owner had to get off her duff and DO something with the dog, or pay for that to happen. 

If a breeder with many years of experience, and many shows, and trials behind her tells me the dog has an excellent temperament, I would probably be ok with that. For a greenhorn to say she has an excellent temperament, loves kids, but has nothing to show for it, that is harder to take.

Unfortunately, whatever the op does, the best buyers are not going to take her puppies. What pups go to friends and family, all of what she puts into them, will seem like having no value added. 

But the OP has two years. She can spend those years, doing NOTHING toward breeding her dog, and two years from now, she can stumble back to this site and ask how long gestation takes, what days to breed her, frantically asking how to tube feed, etc. Or, she can set up a learning plan, and be much more prepared when the time comes, and she will come across much more prepared when she does find that some will have to be sold.


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## Emoore

Whiteshepherds said:


> You're making the assumption that the family who can only afford to pay $250 for a dog is less responsible or committed to their dogs than the family that can pay $2000.


Not at all. I'm living on a modest income. I don't have TV and make my calls on a crappy go-phone. We don't go out to eat more than about once a month. I buy the store brand groceries and drive them home in a $3000 car. 

But I took the money that I would have spent on those other luxuries and _put money aside every month. _(Amazing concept for most of America I know). As a result, I'm blessed enough to be able to pay cash for my puppy I'm getting in February and still have a bit of an emergency fund.

Honestly, if someone doesn't have enough to put $50 or $100 aside every month to save up for a nicely-bred pup, they don't have the money to take care of a poorly-bred one.

I guarantee you one thing though: somebody living on a modest income who has saved up enough money, $50 and $100 at a time, to buy a well-bred dog isn't going to dump him at the shelter at the first sign of trouble.


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## Samba

I have seen all sorts of things happen to dogs purchased with ease or with difficulty. I believe it is what is in the owners heart and mind much more than the finances of it all.


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## gsdraven

Samba said:


> I have seen all sorts of things happen to dogs purchased with ease or with difficulty. I believe it is what is in the owners heart and mind much more than the finances of it all.


:thumbup:


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## AgileGSD

Lucy Dog said:


> But which type of dog is more likely going to end up in a shelter?


 The one with an owner who is unwilling or unable to keep him and feels that is their only option.


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## GSDElsa

I'm sorry, but the poorly bred BYB or puppy mill dogs end up in shelters a lot more than the ones coming from reputable breeders, sorry.


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## Emoore

Samba said:


> I have seen all sorts of things happen to dogs purchased with ease or with difficulty. I believe it is what is in the owners heart and mind much more than the finances of it all.


Agreed.


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## Jessiewessie99

I say its the same, but for my shelter we get byb dumps. We have a 8 or 9 GSDs and they all look rather similar in appearance, and we had the same thing happen before. i was talking with other people and we were thinking there was a backyard breeder in the area.


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## Lucy Dog

GSDElsa said:


> I'm sorry, but the poorly bred BYB or puppy mill dogs end up in shelters a lot more than the ones coming from reputable breeders, sorry.


Exactly what I'm trying to say.


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## AgileGSD

There certainly are a lot more poorly bred GSDs out there than anything else. And no doubt, well bred dogs are not common in shelters. But that still doesn't mean a poorly bred dog is destined to be abused and/or dumped in a shelter. It really depends on the the individuals involved.


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## selzer

With children, in which part of the population are children most likely to be abused, which are most likely to be neglected, which are most likely to be fed the best/most nutritious diet, which are most likely to get the best access to good education and extra-curricular activities?

I think that abuse and to some extent neglect defies the class lines, but the instances of abuse and neglect are fewer in classes where people are better educated and financially better off. And no question, children in better off families have opportunities, better healthcare, better food choices than kids from the lower classes.

I think people from ALL classes generally love their children and want to provide the best they can from them. Only those people who are wasted on drugs or alcohol or other serious issues do not put their childrens' needs in the proper prospective.

And why should it be any different with dogs? Yes dog lovers come in all classes, but how often do we hear people say they do not have money for classes, they do not have money for a behaviorist, they are struggling and cannot afford a surgery for their pet? 

How often do we hear of people losing their jobs and needing to rehome their dogs because of it? One would hope that a person who is financially stable, would be able to manage a period of unemployment without dumping the dogs.

Which people are more likely to make the pet truly a family member, having the dog in the house, and spending time and money on training and activities for the dog? I really do not know the answer to this question. Some of the poorest people have dogs in their homes, generally those who are in the upper classes do not have dogs tied to dog houses in the back yard.


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## Lilie

Selzer - ouch!


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## BestK9GSD

Nothing more from Tara - the original poster of this thread? All of this sound advice and it appears to have fallen on 'blind eyes' - Hopefully, she got the point and has decided against breeding her dog - or at the very least, has decided to get better educated before making that decision.


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## Myamom

Dogs from REPUTABLE breeders have a better chance of going to a good appropriate home because the breeder is screening their homes and cares where the dogs go. Dogs from REPUTABLE breeders are far less likely to end up in a shelter or passed around because they have that REPUTABLE breeder standing behind them who actually cares..and won't allow that to happen (usually with a contract stating so). I think that's the big difference. 

A byb usually doesn't care to take the dog back and/or doesn't have the ability to do so. 

There are good and bad dog owners of every economic background. Issues can arise in any type of home that can lead to someone having to give up their pet (death, illness, etc) 

I think ultimately...it's what kind of care was taken in selling the dog (i.e. screening, matching appropriately, etc) and what kind of safety net was provided for the dog (if something should ever come up that the buyer could no longer keep) . In almost all cases...only REPUTABLE breeders are providing these safeguards.


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## Whiteshepherds

selzer said:


> And why should it be any different with dogs? Yes dog lovers come in all classes, but how often do we hear people say they do not have money for classes, they do not have money for a behaviorist, they are struggling and cannot afford a surgery for their pet?
> 
> How often do we hear of people losing their jobs and needing to rehome their dogs because of it? One would hope that a person who is financially stable, would be able to manage a period of unemployment without dumping the dogs.


So I'll ask again. If those with less money are more likely to put their dogs in a shelter or rescue, why aren't the adoption fees higher ????? If what you're saying is true, rescues and shelter dogs should be much more expensive.


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## selzer

If they could charge more, they would. 

We see it ALL the time. 

BBDs (Big Black dogs) they go for $25. Because nobody wants them, they are hard to move.

Puppies and small dogs go for much more -- supply and demand. 

Those are shelter figures not rescue figures.

If a rescue could move their dogs, charging 1500 or 1800, they would. They would build kennels and buildings and hire staff so that they would not lose their not for profit status, but they would charge a bloody fortune if there were no breeders out there breeding dogs and there was suddenly a shortage of dogs. 

At present, around here anyway, rescue prices are similar to BYB prices. The rescue purchasor gets to feel good about rescuing a dog, the BYB purchasor gets AKC or UKC or CKC paperwork. 

Rescues are always in the red because the current supply/demand does not allow for them to have prices high enough to cover the veterinary/foster costs of the dogs in most cases. If that changes, they will up the price.


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## selzer

It is not much cheaper for rescuers than it is for reputable breeders. A reputable breeder will OFA breeding stock, a rescuer will spay/neuter and check for heartworms. A breeder needs a whelping box and other supplies. Sometimes rescuers do too. A breeder might do AI, Stud Fee, and C-section. A rescuer better not be doing AI or stud fee, but c-section is possible, and the chances that their dogs will need vetting prior to placement is maybe a bit greater. 

So if t reputable breeder breaks even at approximately 1500/pup, then a rescue pup would not be that much different. There is a lot more to both businesses, Breeders are figuring cost of training, titling, housing, feeding and vetting dogs year round, etc. While rescues would be making up their difference by covering the costs of dogs that are not easily placed, sick or injured, etc. 

The pit bull rescue claimed 800$/day and I thought, no way. But they are talking 200 dogs. If it was 20 dogs, that would be 80$/day, ten dogs 40$/day and after dumping 28 dollars of chicken in my dogs in the last 24 hours, when you figure out vetting, utilities, training, supplies, It could easlily be that much per day. 

So to just stay afloat, a rescue needs donations, because they cannot command the prices that reputable breeders do.


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## tierra nuestra

Excellent reply.thanks for putting health 1st!


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## AgileGSD

Myamom said:


> I think ultimately...it's what kind of care was taken in selling the dog (i.e. screening, matching appropriately, etc) and what kind of safety net was provided for the dog (if something should ever come up that the buyer could no longer keep) . In almost all cases...only REPUTABLE breeders are providing these safeguards.


 Ultimately, it is how the owner views the dog they decided to bring into their home. Sometimes thing don't work out even with great homes but not everyone would surrender their dog to a shelter without trying every other available option. And certainly not a kill shelter. 

It seems what people are saying here is that well bred dogs have a better chance of their breeders stepping in if their home doesn't work out than poorly bred dogs do. And that is very often true. It is not real common to find well bred purebreds in shelters. It is actually not common to see most breeds of dogs in shelters but pretty common to see the most popular breeds. Part of that is due to the sheer number of those breeds out there though. There is no what to know what percentage of poorly bred dogs astay in their homes, what percentage are sold or given away to second or third owners and what percentage are surrendered to shelters. I don't think the majority of any breed's population are ending up in shelters though. 

I certainly support careful breeding and urge people to get puppies from knowledgeable breeders. But people aren't going to entirely stop breeding their pet dogs. Trying to scare someone into listening to your viewpoint is almost never effective. I think it's far preferable to at least guide owners asking about breeding to responsible breeding practices - health testing, screening homes, contracts and selecting for generally sound temperaments than to turn them off of asking all together. There will always be people who don't want to spend $1000++ on a puppy willing to risk buying a pet bred dog vs. a show or working bred one. It isn't generally easy to find purebred puppies in shelters or rescues.


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## onyx'girl

As an owner of a GSD from a BYB my dog could have been dumped at a shelter or worse(euth'd due to fear aggression or her chronic allergy symptoms) if I hadn't committed to her and training & managing her. She was lucky to end up with someone that had the passion to help her thru her issues. Many would not, as it is a throw away society we live in.

The breeder did have a first rights in her "contract" but was/is in no position to take back pups and has moved about so if I didn't have internet smarts wouldn't even be able to locate her to return or update her that I was re-homing the dog. 

"Responsible Breeding" is the _responsibilit_y of the breeder for the _long lived_ life of the dog, I sure wouldn't want that on my heart for 12/14 years if one of my buyers decided they didn't want to pay for the vetting or whatever and the dog ended up back with me. Times it by how many pups in a litter and how many litters produced...


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## Jessiewessie99

I have a big black dog, he was the same price as all the other dogs at the shelter. My shelter gets all their money from public donations, none of its government funded. Yet, we look like a top notch facility. 

My other GSD came from a BYB/oops litter. She was $25 and one of the healthiest dogs I have had. If she had any sort of health problem that occurred within our ownership of her we would get her the medical care she needs, if we couldn't afford we would either try to rehome her to someone who could get her the medical care she needs or to a rescue. But we would only rehome her or give her to a rescue AFTER all other sources run out. Otherwise we got lucky with Molly, and wouldn't trade her for the world.


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## Samba

I have never visited my small town shelter and not seen a purebred dog there. In fact I have gone and seen more than one litter of purebred puppies there. This is in a really small town also. Really, I am not seeing any shortage of purebred rescues. In the last several months we have had border collies and a number of nice German Shepherds. There is a nice Malinois in now.


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## Emoore

Samba said:


> I have never visited my small town shelter and not seen a purebred dog there. In fact I have gone and seen more than one litter of purebred puppies there. This is in a really small town also. Really, I am not seeing any shortage of purebred rescues. In the last several months we have had border collies and a number of nice German Shepherds. There is a nice Malinois in now.


Yup. My friends joke that I'm on a tour of all the Dallas/Ft Worth area shelters I visit them so much doing rescue transport. There are always purebreds, and often purebred puppies. Last time I had to forcibly stop myself from bringing home a 10-12 week old Lab pup.


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## holland

My second gsd came from the shelter I think she was American lines -she was not over angulated though Have no idea what her breeding was but she was a wonderful dog to live with We did AKC obedience and she loved it-never could understand why she ended up in the shelter.


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## shannonrae

selzer said:


> With children, in which part of the population are children most likely to be abused, which are most likely to be neglected, which are most likely to be fed the best/most nutritious diet, which are most likely to get the best access to good education and extra-curricular activities?
> 
> I think that abuse and to some extent neglect defies the class lines, but the instances of abuse and neglect are fewer in classes where people are better educated and financially better off. And no question, children in better off families have opportunities, better healthcare, better food choices than kids from the lower classes.
> 
> I think people from ALL classes generally love their children and want to provide the best they can from them. Only those people who are wasted on drugs or alcohol or other serious issues do not put their childrens' needs in the proper prospective.
> 
> And why should it be any different with dogs? Yes dog lovers come in all classes, but how often do we hear people say they do not have money for classes, they do not have money for a behaviorist, they are struggling and cannot afford a surgery for their pet?
> 
> How often do we hear of people losing their jobs and needing to rehome their dogs because of it? One would hope that a person who is financially stable, would be able to manage a period of unemployment without dumping the dogs.
> 
> Which people are more likely to make the pet truly a family member, having the dog in the house, and spending time and money on training and activities for the dog? I really do not know the answer to this question. Some of the poorest people have dogs in their homes, generally those who are in the upper classes do not have dogs tied to dog houses in the back yard.


I grew up with a single Mom who worked full time with 3 children. We were poor to the point of not having winter coats (in Maine) and having to eat all we could of our free school lunches because there was no "supper" to come home to. 
We also had 3 cats and 2 dogs. When times were lean and we did not have people food in the house you can bet your a$$ the animals had food. It was not always the best quality but they were doing better than we were. 
When my dog started having behavioral issues we scrimped and saved for months to afford the $100 obedience class. Our pets occasionally went without their yearly wellness exam or boosters, but NEVER without acute medical care. Lucky for me our local veterinarian allowed me make payments with the babysitting money I earned.
Why did we have dogs and cats when funding was so tight?
Because a house is not a home without pets. I am pretty sure that if it was not for my dog I had through my teenage years I would not be here today (I was a very troubled teen). 
There is no point in having a pet if it will not be part of the family.
My point is Selzers statement may be true, but it is also true that the "rich" (generally) are more likely to give up on or "throw away" an animal because they can go find another easily enough. I don't think we can accurately judge which class of people is more pet worthy based on their income. I have seen plenty of people who appear well off (scads of real jewelry and designer clothes) come into the vet clinic and refuse treatment of their cats abscess because they can't afford it, meanwhile they are texting on their latest cellphone while their gold jewelry glitters in the light and their $1,000 pocket book sits on their lap looking as tacky as any I have ever seen. After said cat is euthanized they hop into their Cadillac and drive off without looking back or a tear to acknowledge the cats plight. 
Meanwhile, another client comes in wearing threadbare dirty clothes with a young, very sickly boxer mix puppy that he saved when the neighbor was going to drown it in a bucket. The puppy tests positive for parvo, the owner proceeds to say, "Don't matter what the cost, please save my baby. I get my social security at the beginning of every month and will pay up" The puppy ends up staying with us at the clinic for one week. The man calls every day to see how the puppy is doing, he comes to visit at the clinic every other day when he can get a ride. Finally when the puppy is well enough to go home the man comes to pick her up. He holds her in his arms and cries, he is so happy she is better. The bill for the week totaled $2,000. Now 2 months later the owner has paid the bill in full. (The bill did get discounted some by the doctor and I).
That man must have gone without is own comforts to make sure the puppy lived. That is love and devotion that no dollar amount can equal.


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## selzer

I did say that abuse and neglect to some extent defies class lines. 

However, I think that MOST people would put their childrens' food over the purchase of dog food. And that people with some financial security are able to purchase the food choices that this site most often recommends. 

I think in any class, there are people who cannot see how to afford something as well as an outsider can. It is easy for me to sit here and say, do you have cable tv, do you have a cell phone, do you have internet, well then you really aren't hurting THAT badly. Give those up and pay for your dogs' food and vet bills, and training classes. And there are other people who would say dump your dogs in a shelter and pay that visa bill or the bill for that surgery.

Life is a whole lot less complicated, less stressful when meeting the current set of bills is not impossible.


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## onyx'girl

And some people will breed thinking it will pay some bills.


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## holland

---maybe that should be added to the list of things to look for in a responsible breeder-someone who doesn't pay bills


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## Glacier

shannonrae said:


> I grew up with a single Mom who worked full time with 3 children. We were poor to the point of not having winter coats (in Maine) and having to eat all we could of our free school lunches because there was no "supper" to come home to.
> We also had 3 cats and 2 dogs. When times were lean and we did not have people food in the house you can bet your a$$ the animals had food. It was not always the best quality but they were doing better than we were.
> When my dog started having behavioral issues we scrimped and saved for months to afford the $100 obedience class. Our pets occasionally went without their yearly wellness exam or boosters, but NEVER without acute medical care. Lucky for me our local veterinarian allowed me make payments with the babysitting money I earned.
> Why did we have dogs and cats when funding was so tight?
> Because a house is not a home without pets. I am pretty sure that if it was not for my dog I had through my teenage years I would not be here today (I was a very troubled teen).
> There is no point in having a pet if it will not be part of the family.
> My point is Selzers statement may be true, but it is also true that the "rich" (generally) are more likely to give up on or "throw away" an animal because they can go find another easily enough. I don't think we can accurately judge which class of people is more pet worthy based on their income. I have seen plenty of people who appear well off (scads of real jewelry and designer clothes) come into the vet clinic and refuse treatment of their cats abscess because they can't afford it, meanwhile they are texting on their latest cellphone while their gold jewelry glitters in the light and their $1,000 pocket book sits on their lap looking as tacky as any I have ever seen. After said cat is euthanized they hop into their Cadillac and drive off without looking back or a tear to acknowledge the cats plight.
> Meanwhile, another client comes in wearing threadbare dirty clothes with a young, very sickly boxer mix puppy that he saved when the neighbor was going to drown it in a bucket. The puppy tests positive for parvo, the owner proceeds to say, "Don't matter what the cost, please save my baby. I get my social security at the beginning of every month and will pay up" The puppy ends up staying with us at the clinic for one week. The man calls every day to see how the puppy is doing, he comes to visit at the clinic every other day when he can get a ride. Finally when the puppy is well enough to go home the man comes to pick her up. He holds her in his arms and cries, he is so happy she is better. The bill for the week totaled $2,000. Now 2 months later the owner has paid the bill in full. (The bill did get discounted some by the doctor and I).
> That man must have gone without is own comforts to make sure the puppy lived. That is love and devotion that no dollar amount can equal.


You articulated what I wanted to say beautifully.


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## irongrl

shannonrae said:


> I grew up with a single Mom who worked full time with 3 children. We were poor to the point of not having winter coats (in Maine) and having to eat all we could of our free school lunches because there was no "supper" to come home to.
> We also had 3 cats and 2 dogs. When times were lean and we did not have people food in the house you can bet your a$$ the animals had food. It was not always the best quality but they were doing better than we were.
> When my dog started having behavioral issues we scrimped and saved for months to afford the $100 obedience class. Our pets occasionally went without their yearly wellness exam or boosters, but NEVER without acute medical care. Lucky for me our local veterinarian allowed me make payments with the babysitting money I earned.
> Why did we have dogs and cats when funding was so tight?
> Because a house is not a home without pets. I am pretty sure that if it was not for my dog I had through my teenage years I would not be here today (I was a very troubled teen).
> There is no point in having a pet if it will not be part of the family.
> My point is Selzers statement may be true, but it is also true that the "rich" (generally) are more likely to give up on or "throw away" an animal because they can go find another easily enough. I don't think we can accurately judge which class of people is more pet worthy based on their income. I have seen plenty of people who appear well off (scads of real jewelry and designer clothes) come into the vet clinic and refuse treatment of their cats abscess because they can't afford it, meanwhile they are texting on their latest cellphone while their gold jewelry glitters in the light and their $1,000 pocket book sits on their lap looking as tacky as any I have ever seen. After said cat is euthanized they hop into their Cadillac and drive off without looking back or a tear to acknowledge the cats plight.
> Meanwhile, another client comes in wearing threadbare dirty clothes with a young, very sickly boxer mix puppy that he saved when the neighbor was going to drown it in a bucket. The puppy tests positive for parvo, the owner proceeds to say, "Don't matter what the cost, please save my baby. I get my social security at the beginning of every month and will pay up" The puppy ends up staying with us at the clinic for one week. The man calls every day to see how the puppy is doing, he comes to visit at the clinic every other day when he can get a ride. Finally when the puppy is well enough to go home the man comes to pick her up. He holds her in his arms and cries, he is so happy she is better. The bill for the week totaled $2,000. Now 2 months later the owner has paid the bill in full. (The bill did get discounted some by the doctor and I).
> That man must have gone without is own comforts to make sure the puppy lived. That is love and devotion that no dollar amount can equal.


Thank you for this post. You brought back memories of my childhood. We had 2 cats and 2 dogs. We were very poor, but our pets never went hungry and they went to the vet whenever necessary. It would never have occurred to us to not have pets. They were a part of our family. One of our cats, my first pet, lived to be 21.


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## Bridget

My husband was very interested in becoming a "good" Labrador breeder. He got me interested too. We bought Loki from a small hobbyist breeder and Loki is wonderful. Our opinion and everyone else who has met Loki is that he has the looks, health, intelligence, that he is one of those dogs who truly should be bred. However, we didn't know the first thing about breeding and wanted to learn. So, I went on a labrador forum and asked for help. I was certainly sorry. I was told to leave breeding to the reputable breeders (how do you get to be a reputable breeder, are you just born like that?) The general reponse was how dare you speak of breeding your dog! Anyhow, we rejected or at least put the idea on hold, after deciding we didn't have the means, space, time, etc. to be breeders. But my point is I never asked for help there again. Had we decided to breed, we would have just muddled through without advice from these people, some of whom no doubt really know their stuff. How sad.


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## selzer

Bridget, the one breed of dog that has a worse problem than German Shepherds when it comes to people breeding them indescriminately is Labs. Labradores, month after month after month, have three times the number of litter registrations than the next runner up, GSDs or Yorkies or Goldens, etc.

I am not surprised you did not get a warm welcome when you asked this question over there. 

Why labs? Is this a breed that you have had for a number of years, love, hunt with, etc, etc? 

Why breed? Do you want to create an awesome show dog or field dog? 

I guess my question is whether you want to be a breeder and chose labs, or that you love labs and want to become a breeder of them. 

Because if you want to become a breeder and show dogs, LABS are NOT what you want, nor shepherds, really. You want a dog in the middle of the popularity scale, like newfoundlands, or English Setters, or Borzois. Something that you can find and breed to, but something that is not overflowing the shows. 

If the reason to become a breeder is to make money, people who frequent any dog site will not give you a warm welcome. 

If the reason to become a breeder is to make nice puppies that will be good pets, well, again, there are so many of them out there, that it is really not a great reason to breed dogs. 

People hound you right off the site, if you join a forum and the first thing they know about you is that you have a great puppy and you want to breed him. This is like one of the major broken records of all time. 

If you truly want to become a breeder, you have to come into it from a position of knowledge. You already have to know the breed standard, breed history, breed problems. Join a breed club and realize that you really do not know so much about any of it, and commit yourself to learning. When you get your first breed quality bitch you should be in a position, know enough people in your breed to have a good chance of purchasing and qualifying your bitch as breedworthy. And you should know how to see her faults, and how to choose a mate by what her strengths and weaknesses are and according to bloodlines.

In five or ten years, you too will be hounding the newbies off when they visit your site to ask how to go about breeding their dog. You might start off with, "I, too..." but it will be the same deal. 

Once you truly commit yourself to learn everything there is to know about your breed, including the issues facing your breed, you may not feel as much compulsion to open your arms in welcome to every would be breeder.


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## AgileGSD

selzer said:


> B
> I guess my question is whether you want to be a breeder and chose labs, or that you love labs and want to become a breeder of them.
> 
> Because if you want to become a breeder and show dogs, LABS are NOT what you want, nor shepherds, really. You want a dog in the middle of the popularity scale, like newfoundlands, or English Setters, or Borzois. Something that you can find and breed to, but something that is not overflowing the shows.


 It isn't impossible to get into showing Labs or GSDs. If that is the breed you want and love and that is what you want to show - go for it! People do finish their own GSDs and Labs and even more newbie owners put their show Labs or GSDs on handlers and finish them. There are also UKC and International shows, which are much more welcoming to newbie owner-handlers.


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## Konotashi

AgileGSD said:


> *It isn't impossible to get into showing Labs or GSDs*. If that is the breed you want and love and that is what you want to show - go for it! People do finish their own GSDs and Labs and even more newbie owners put their show Labs or GSDs on handlers and finish them. There are also UKC and International shows, which are much more welcoming to newbie owner-handlers.


It isn't impossible, but I imagine it's very, very difficult. 

If I ever want to get into the conformation ring and into the world of breeding, I think I'll probably go with Swedish Vallhunds or Cardigan Welsh corgis.


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## dogbonesca

LaRen616 said:


> How old is she?
> 
> What does she bring to the breed?
> 
> Only dogs that have titles, great health, great temperment, great bloodlines and great working ability should be bred.
> 
> You are just going to contribute more puppies that are going to end up in shelters and die.
> 
> Go look at your local animal shelter, those dogs are there because of people like you.


 what happened to just having dog for family reasons and to love it no matter what ....these days people expect to much and want to much....why does a german shepherd have to be perfect! its people who think like you who put dogs in shelters!


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## NancyJ

dogbonesca, the thread is over 2 years old so not much point in adding to it.


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## lalachka

Emoore said:


> Not at all. I'm living on a modest income. I don't have TV and make my calls on a crappy go-phone. We don't go out to eat more than about once a month. I buy the store brand groceries and drive them home in a $3000 car.
> 
> But I took the money that I would have spent on those other luxuries and _put money aside every month. _(Amazing concept for most of America I know). As a result, I'm blessed enough to be able to pay cash for my puppy I'm getting in February and still have a bit of an emergency fund.
> 
> Honestly, if someone doesn't have enough to put $50 or $100 aside every month to save up for a nicely-bred pup, they don't have the money to take care of a poorly-bred one.
> 
> I guarantee you one thing though: somebody living on a modest income who has saved up enough money, $50 and $100 at a time, to buy a well-bred dog isn't going to dump him at the shelter at the first sign of trouble.


Since this thread was already brought back from dead. 

There are many people (myself included) that won't dump a dog after even the 10th sign of trouble even if they bought them for $300. I already spent about $5000 on my dog. Probably much more, I'm scared to add it up. And I only had him for 6 months. 

There are many people buying their first dogs that don't know much and can't justify spending a few thousand for a pup. And some other things come into play (not wanting to wait, for example). 
What I'm saying is that it's not so clear cut. 

I'm bothered every time I hear people say things like that. Yeah once people know everything that goes into breeding they will probably go to a breeder but I won't judge anyone no matter what they do. As long as they treat their dog well that's all that matters. 

I understand the argument 'easy come easy go' but most of the time people get attached to their animals no matter how much they cost. I'd say that people dumping animals easily is a matter of personality, not the amount of money spent. 


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## Castlemaid

Zombie thread - no need to keep going when the original posters are long gone.


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