# Need help... how do I change my dog's indication in nosework?



## LuccaVonCyclone (Apr 17, 2013)

Hi all,

Lucca (7mo) & I are into our second session of Nosework. He's doing great with searching & finding the scent and I really love the sport. The trainer comments regularly how wonderfully methodical he is in his searching  Only problem is that his natural indication tends to be scratching/punching the box. 

I only click/reward when he holds his nose on the scent, and I ignore him when he scratches the scent. When I ignore the scratch I can tell he gets frustrated, like he wants to shout at me, "I'm showing you where it is, pay attention!!!" I don't want him to become overly frustrated and loose interest. Has anyone else had this problem? I'm trying to use boxes placed a bit higher to discourage scratching, with a hole just the right size for his nose to fit in... in order to encourage him to hold his nose on the scent. My goal is to have him touch the scent with his nose & sit for indication.

Also, I'm wondering if AKC recognizes Nosework titles? I plan to compete either way (once we're ready) but I'm just curious. My trainer is working with several other trainers from across the state to try & get a trial going here annually.


----------



## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

I don't really know how to answer your question, but I'm interested to see what the answer is.

One thing you can try is rewarding him before he has a chance to scratch. We did a seminar with one of the nose work founders and he actually had us rewarding before the dog indicated, right when you can tell they found it, but before they actually told us where it was. My dog likes to pick up the odor if it's accessible, so we reward before he has the opportunity to do so.

My dog also indicates with his paw, which was his choice and I like it because I don't have to look for a subtle change of behavior. Be careful to not make the behavior too subtle because remember when you trial, it's more than boxes and you must indicate _exactly _where the odor is.


----------



## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

Why do you want to break his natural indication? I am in NW 3, getting ready for an upcoming ORT. I would love if my boy scratched at the box. I had a canine drug detection business back in the 80's and all of our dogs 'hit' with scratching trying to open what they were hitting on. Now obviously if you have bomb dogs that is not an indication you want.  I wouldn't worry about it and would prefer it as it's a nice strong indicator.


----------



## ladygator (Mar 1, 2013)

I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO said:


> One thing you can try is rewarding him before he has a chance to scratch. We did a seminar with one of the nose work founders and he actually had us rewarding before the dog indicated, right when you can tell they found it, but before they actually told us where it was.


This. If your dog is doing things like paw/scratch/sit/etc and it's not a "trained alert," your dog is doing so because he's told you 10 other ways via subtle behavior changes that he's on the odor. We just have a hard time reading that sometimes  Reward earlier, almost beating your dog to the source and you'll get more of that nose sticking to the source as your dog is wondering "Where in the world is my hot dog??? It should be here by now"

You may not even want to completely extinguish that pawing indication, since that is a very clear signal and it appears to be how your dog wants to naturally communicate to you that he's found it. If you do use the paw as an indicator for where the odor actually is though, I'd suggest to train it only if your dog paws the actual odor source because that might mess you up in a trial if he paws in the vicinity, you alert and tell the judge it's where his paw hit....even though the odor is 4-6" above that spot. For example, the hide is in between the upper spokes of a wheel on a vehicle search and your dog paws just on the tire rim or maybe at the center. You call alert, judge asks "where?" (and they will do that for NW1) and if you use the location of the paw to tell the judge, you want to make sure the dog is pawing the location closest to the tin/odor as possible. I saw many teams miss this exact hide in the trial in FL this spring for very similar reasons. (Of course if you call "alert" on the location his nose was last at this isn't a problem and you likely didn't need the pawing anyway  )


----------



## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

ladygator said:


> This. If your dog is doing things like paw/scratch/sit/etc and it's not a "trained alert," your dog is doing so because he's told you 10 other ways via subtle behavior changes that he's on the odor. We just have a hard time reading that sometimes  Reward earlier, almost beating your dog to the source and you'll get more of that nose sticking to the source as your dog is wondering "Where in the world is my hot dog??? It should be here by now"
> 
> You may not even want to completely extinguish that pawing indication, since that is a very clear signal and it appears to be how your dog wants to naturally communicate to you that he's found it. If you do use the paw as an indicator for where the odor actually is though, I'd suggest to train it only if your dog paws the actual odor source because that might mess you up in a trial if he paws in the vicinity, you alert and tell the judge it's where his paw hit....even though the odor is 4-6" above that spot. For example, the hide is in between the upper spokes of a wheel on a vehicle search and your dog paws just on the tire rim or maybe at the center. You call alert, judge asks "where?" (and they will do that for NW1) and if you use the location of the paw to tell the judge, you want to make sure the dog is pawing the location closest to the tin/odor as possible. I saw many teams miss this exact hide in the trial in FL this spring for very similar reasons. (Of course if you call "alert" on the location his nose was last at this isn't a problem and you likely didn't need the pawing anyway  )


I was reading your example and thinking, hey that sounds familiar - that's the trial where we got our NW1 title! I probably met you there!
Great example though, and luckily, my husband is also good at reading Mikko's nose too, and chose the quarter of the rim that he stuck his nose in the longest.


----------



## ladygator (Mar 1, 2013)

I was the volunteer coordinator for that trial the first day so I was able to watch some of the vehicle and exterior runs! The white dog that was on the trial T-shirts is my boy, Ace  

Most of the ones that passed did like yours and went with the nose (although there is a terrier I train with that has a super cute paw alert, but her paw hits the source). The one's that didn't were waiting for a paw, or as Ron Gaunt says "waiting until the dog whistles Dixie" and called where the dog last touched and were off for a few inches.


----------



## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

ladygator said:


> I was the volunteer coordinator for that trial the first day so I was able to watch some of the vehicle and exterior runs! The white dog that was on the trial T-shirts is my boy, Ace
> 
> Most of the ones that passed did like yours and went with the nose (although there is a terrier I train with that has a super cute paw alert, but her paw hits the source). The one's that didn't were waiting for a paw, or as Ron Gaunt says "waiting until the dog whistles Dixie" and called where the dog last touched and were off for a few inches.


That's awesome! I didn't get a shirt, and keep forgetting to ask Melanie if she has leftovers...

It's weird, Mikko uses his paw when he can get to the odor, but will use his nose and then look at us (I keep saying us because both my husband and I train with him) if he can't get to it. The only time the paw has been wrong is when he paws at a box to play with it...I can't wait to pass the next ORT so we're done with them forever! 

If you ever get a chance to go to a Ron Gaunt seminar- take it! I think his training technique will help you with what you are trying to do.


----------



## LuccaVonCyclone (Apr 17, 2013)

Thank you everyone for the replies!!

I personally like the scratching indication, but our trainer says that scratching is an unacceptable indication because it can be destructive - damaging car paint and other surfaces - and that's why I should ignore paw indications and reward the nose. You guys have me wondering if the anti-scratching stance is just my trainers personal opinion, although she kind of made it sound like scratching was not allowed in trials? And to be honest Lucca is pretty rough about it... he really digs his claws in or punches the box & sends it flying. He dose paw the actual scent can itself when he can get to it. 

I am thinking I will stop ignoring the paw... I'll reward him when he scratches but I'll make a bigger deal out of it when he holds his nose on the spot. As far as rewarding early, at this point she (trainer) now wants the dogs giving a longer indication before rewarding. I can tell right away when he's got it pegged & rewarding at that point (before he scratches) would be no problem. Maybe we're moving forward too fast and need to stick with instant rewarding for now.

In class we are using boxes, plastic tubs, plastic drawers, chairs, and cinder blocks. At home I use all of the above, but I also do hides in the landscaping, the tires of the car, mailbox, swing set, fire pit, ect. The first and last hides of a session (both at home & in class) are scent paired with food, the others are scent alone with a click/reward when the dog finds it.


----------



## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

LuccaVonCyclone said:


> Thank you everyone for the replies!!
> 
> I personally like the scratching indication, but our trainer says that scratching is an unacceptable indication because it can be destructive - damaging car paint and other surfaces - and that's why I should ignore paw indications and reward the nose. You guys have me wondering if the anti-scratching stance is just my trainers personal opinion, although she kind of made it sound like scratching was not allowed in trials? And to be honest Lucca is pretty rough about it... he really digs his claws in or punches the box & sends it flying. He dose paw the actual scent can itself when he can get to it.
> 
> ...


Scratching is perfectly acceptable. If the dog is overly damaging, then you will have points deducted. I don't know what level of damage that requires, but they have had to replace boxes after my dog has crushed them with a paw and did not receive points taken off.

I think this is why it is so important to reward early! I have a feeling that waiting is going to excite your dog more. Mikko has a problem with boxes- he likes to destroy them...we need to reward him very early or he thinks it's play time!
I really don't understand the point of waiting to reward either, but I'm not a trainer. If you reward early, your dog won't have the chance to damage anything. You should probably be able to recognize a change in his behavior right before he indicates, if you are ready to reward as soon as the paw hits the odor, the dog won't be scratching, crushing, etc.


----------



## ladygator (Mar 1, 2013)

Ohhh, I was thinking he was just pawing at it, not digging it! Yes, digging and scratching could get your faults, so listen to your instructor there. 

A paw tap is fine, but scratching and digging could get you in trouble. Although that really depends on the element/the judge/the hide location/etc. New judges would be less likely to fault you at least from what I saw dogs get away with at our trial  

Scratching a car door jam....bad combo, possible fault. Scratching/digging the dirt at/around an exterior hide also bad combo because that messes with the search area and changes the scent and might give a clue to later handlers where the hide was if they see freshly brushed dirt. Crushed boxes, no big deal. Ace crushes boxes as his alert and I'm fine with that because it's just boxes. If your dog does anything that could cause physical damage or create a visual/sensory alert to another dog/handler to clue them in to the location you could get a fault...but that's up to whoever's judging. 



LuccaVonCyclone said:


> I can tell right away when he's got it pegged & rewarding at that point (before he scratches) would be no problem.


Then you have the only alert you need! NACSW has actually gotten rid of the requirement for a formal alert in the NW2 and NW3 levels because handlers waiting for their formal alert were not titling, even though the handlers, spectators and the judges knew very clearly the dog had found odor! (Of course a trained final alert does look awesome, I will say that!)

I personally, would only withhold the reward very very rarely to "test" my dog's commitment to staying at source. By rewarding early, you give your dog a HUGE expectation that there should be a reward at the source so when you do come late (either in those rare training sessions, or in an ORT/trial), your dog will stick around or turn around to see where you are with his reward and give you the "Hey Stupid!" look. I try to always beat my dog to source with the reward, or throw it at the source so it's there when he gets there. I was trying something new last week, the reward was VERY delayed getting there, and I found out by doing so many quick rewards, he was committed to the source and wasn't going anywhere until he got what he deserved.

Just do what feels right for you and your dog and hopefully your instructor will understand and allow you to proceed the way that matches your goal!


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Do you do more than boxes? If not, you may find this is not really a problem. My dog's indications are all over the place. He has sometimes scratched and even punched the boxes, but he has never touched (with his paw) anything other than a box. Technically, to me his indication is a change in body language that I can see just before he does whatever else he does (paws or punches a box, holds his nose touch or alternates between a nose touch and glancing back at me, or he will even sit or down depending on where the hide is...none of these I've trained). I personally would not worry about changing such an obvious, natural indication unless the dog actually is destroying property. You may get to vehicles and it's a non-issue. Nikon has taken a dive into boxes and done his share of bulldozing but on vehicles it is naturally more methodical and he will simply nose touch with obedience to the odor (just stand stock still). If the odor is low, he will lie down and nose touch (I believe his natural tendency to lie down when the source is low or on the ground is because he had 4 years of tracking training and two tracking titles before we started nosework).

FWIW my training style is mostly like Denise Fenzi and some Andrew Ramsey, I do a lot differently than NACSW but my instructor is NACSW and while we disagree on some things, we all know our own dogs and work together towards success.


----------

