# Looking to breed my German Shepard



## Troyrobinson

He is purebreed with all akc paperwork . Great bloodline . He is Czech doesnt appear to have any american bloodline . He is 2 years and four months old . Would prefer an all black female i do want one from the litter is why . Willing to stud or make other arrangements on the litter . I am new too this and have never done it . Thanks Troy


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## Heagler870

This is probably NOT the best place to put an ad out to stud your dog out.


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## Heagler870

I rephrase myself and take the "probably" out of it.


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## GSD MOM

LOL- yeah this isn't going to be good.


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## Emoore

Do you have your dog's OFA hip scores and Schutzhund titles ready to show to the owner of any prospective females?


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## Troyrobinson

*Ok*

I thought it would be a good place but thats not the only reason im on here im looking for locals groups that get togther and train socialize and things . Maybe ill just get a all black gsd from a respectable breeder as i did him .


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## Lilie

Hi Troy! Welcome to the forum! You'll find a lot of great information on here regarding breeding your dog. Hope it helps!


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## Troyrobinson

Thank you


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## Troyrobinson

*.......*



Emoore said:


> Do you have your dog's OFA hip scores and Schutzhund titles ready to show to the owner of any prospective females?


 


Not familar with that just getting started . I have everything from akc paperwork and reg. to every reciept from the vet .


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## Emoore

Might want to post an introduction in the intros area. . .lots of people on here in Oklahoma and some might be interested in getting together for training and socialization. Welcome by the way!


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## Lilie

One of the monitors here on the site can help you with a link in the forum that shows what do look for in a good breeder. I'm tech-o challenged and can't figure it out. But that would be a great place to start! 

There are also many members here from OK and I'm sure they can help hook you up with some local clubs.


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## Emoore

Troyrobinson said:


> Not familar with that just getting started . I have everything from akc paperwork and reg. to every reciept from the vet .


Yeah, if you are serious about wanting to breed your dog you'll want to go ahead and get his hips certified free of dysplasia and probably elbows too. . . in a breed like this with so many joint problems it's really irresponsible to breed without those clearances. If you want to attract a really good female you'll want to get him titled in something . Again, this breed has so many temperament problems that people are looking for "proof" that your dog has a strong, stable temperament in the form of titles.


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## DharmasMom

Welcome to the forum!! You should probably start in the breeding section and see what is required of a responsible breeder. There is a lot more involved than just having AKC registration. 

And feel free to post pics of your guy. We LOVE pics!!


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## gsdraven

Welcome to the forum. It'd be great if you posted an introduction and told us more about yourself and your dog. 

Here are two threads to start with if you are interested in becoming a breeder.

This thread is what makes a breeder responsible/reputable.
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html

This thread is just one example of what can go wrong while whelping a litter. 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/thinking-about-becoming-breeder/149422-so-you-want-breeder.html


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## Lilie

Thanks Jamie!


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## wolfstraum

OK- welcome Troy!

Breeding dogs is not just throwing them together and hoping! You may have a very nice male, and need to get some health clearances and let other GSD people see him so that you may find someone who likes him enough and wants to breed to him....

I get approached all the time by owners of male dogs who want a pup out of their male. Without going into the dynamics of breeding, raising and nuturing a litter....I will tell you I will not give a puppy up for a stud fee...it is not cost effective...I will sell a pup to the owner of a male at a discounted price tho.

When some one wants to breed their male to my females, at this point I want to see the following:

Hip and elbow certifications

DM certification

Proof of breedworthiness in the form of titles in schutzhund, or certifications by nationally recognized SAR or Police organizations; KKL if schutzhund or statement of owner of intent to koer

Data on production if previously bred - health of pups & any credentials - maybe meeting pups from the male

Proof of fertility on the male within 2 weeks of breeding and clean bill of health

This is after I decide if the pedigrees work, and then learning all I can about the temperament and working qualities of the male.

The owners of the females choose the males they are going to breed to - it behooves anyone with a male who wants to breed it to make that male as attractive as possible to the owner of a desireable female....

Hope this helps your understanding of the process breeders go through to choose a stud for their female.

Lee


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## Rott-n-GSDs

Troyrobinson said:


> Not familar with that just getting started . I have everything from akc paperwork and reg. to every reciept from the vet .


I'm sure there are breeders that can help you with the procedure... but these are very important things if you want to breed your dog. There are thousands of GSDs (purebred!) dying in shelters across the world and therefore it's important to be VERY selective when you breed. You know the puppy you want to keep will have a good home... but what about the rest of the litter? How can you guarantee that the new owners don't get tired of them and dump them in shelters to die?

OFA is an organization where you send in special x-rays from your vet so they can certify whether your dog has hips and elbows that are good enough for breeding. Hip and elbow dysplasia is a very serious, genetic condition so it's VERY important to get these tests done. They are expensive, but again, vitally important. I'm sure you want to make sure that your dog's progeny doesn't end up with crippling illnesses! There are similar test that can be done for other genetic conditions (eyes, thyroid, etc.). 

You also want to make sure your dog has been judged by an outside, neutral party of something worthy of passing on to a litter of pups. This includes confirmation and working titles (SchH). We all love our dogs... and we all feel they have something worth passing on to another generation, so it is important to get that impartial judgement since our own is so clouded with love for our dogs.

I hope this helps... and really it's just the tip of the iceberg. I hope you hang around the forum... it really is a great place to learn and to share about the GSD. (I'd love to see pics of your dog!).


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## onyx'girl

Here is another link to see if your dog has what it takes:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...r/149386-should-i-breed-my-dog-flowchart.html


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## Troyrobinson

Thank you all very much and for the welcome to the site . I did the intro and apoligize i didnt do it first . new to all this .


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## Stevenzachsmom

Welcome Troy! I've been a member for years and never did do an introduction. LOL!

Would LOVE to see pictures of your boy. We all love pictures.


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## Troyrobinson

Stevenzachsmom said:


> Welcome Troy! I've been a member for years and never did do an introduction. LOL!
> 
> Would LOVE to see pictures of your boy. We all love pictures.


 

A few pics on my profile to get started . Thanks again to all for the warm welcome


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## sitstay

He is a very good looking boy! Get out there and train, then compete in some form and do well with him and I could see him being an attractive sire.

Pedigrees are always fun to look at, too! 
Sheilah


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## jesusica

TSC: Tulsa Schutzhund Club


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## jesusica

Oklahoma Working Dog Association


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## Stevenzachsmom

YAY! I got to check out the pics. He is ADORABLE!


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## Emoore

Very nice, everybody! :thumbup:


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## cliffson1

Isn't it nice being civilized, though I am sure there are people with bleeding tongues...LOL Troy, learn as much as you can as you grow with your dog!


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## MaggieRoseLee

Troyrobinson said:


> I thought it would be a good place but thats not the only reason im on here im looking for locals groups that get togther and train socialize and things . Maybe ill just get a all black gsd from a respectable breeder as i did him .


Welcome to the site and ACTUALLY your ' Maybe I'll just get a all black gsd from a respectable breeder as i did him " is exactly what most of us would do!!! :wub:

Why take a chance of a breeding when it sounds like you did such a good job locating your original breeder in the first place? Use his knowledge and abilities to make the perfect match and you get to enjoy the puppy (and not the vet bills and drama that can result from a breeding situation!).


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## GSD_Xander

He's a handsome boy! I like his color.


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## VomBlack

cliffson1 said:


> Isn't it nice being civilized, though I am sure there are people with bleeding tongues...LOL Troy, learn as much as you can as you grow with your dog!


I was thinking the same thing, it's kinda nice.. especially when people are more than willing to get out there and ask questions and learn.


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## Catu

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Welcome to the site and ACTUALLY your ' Maybe I'll just get a all black gsd from a respectable breeder as i did him " is exactly what most of us would do!!! :wub:
> 
> Why take a chance of a breeding when it sounds like you did such a good job locating your original breeder in the first place? Use his knowledge and abilities to make the perfect match and you get to enjoy the puppy (and not the vet bills and drama that can result from a breeding situation!).



Good advice! I always remind people that a pup is only 1/2 of his father, and for males owners it is even harder to get good bitch owners to look for them as a sire. Their dogs do really have to prove themselves because the risks for the female's owner are higher. 

I know there are several people out there willing to breed to your boy without all the requirements Wolfstraum listed, but... do you want their females to be the mother of the dog you will live with for the next 14 years? A good breeder, on the other hand, has great females and an even bigger pool of great sires to choose from.


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## Troyrobinson

jesusica said:


> TSC: Tulsa Schutzhund Club


 I found them im meeting them tommorow i cant wait . Thank you so much


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## Troyrobinson

Thank you all again so much . All the feedback and welcomes are appreciated .


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## krystyne73

Welcome! 
I just drive near there this week from Tulsa to the LADY GAGA concert LOL (had to rub that in)


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## VaBeachFamily

Not sure of the info on the OPs male... but... I would like to say something.......

The whole " he needs to have a Schutzhund title, or a police dog association or something of the sort" is kinda being a bit one sided... I believe that showing the dogs ability to WORK is quite needed before considering breeding... but Bitework style sports is only one option.. for instance, People like to down Cullen's bloodlines... But I have personally met his parents, and they are working dogs WITHOUT titles... They are herding dogs, used on the farm EVERY day, and that to me was just as good as getting a title... I watched them work, and they were amazing! Also, even a herding title, or maybe tracking and obedience? Why must it be Schutzhund/IPO/PSA?


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## onyx'girl

SchH is three phases, not just the bitework. And it was developed as a breed test. Of course, over the years it has become not so much, but without proving the dog is worthy temperament wise, it shouldn't be bred. 
Onyx also came from a breeder who used her dogs on a farm herding cattle and horses. Onyx is not stable in her nerves and could never handle the protection phase of SchH.
Though she'd be a great herder(natural instinct) and tracker but she isn't the great all around GSD...so I chose not to put her in venues where she'd feel overwhelmed due to her anxiousness and FA.
If a GSD can't handle pressure, it isn't worthy of passing on genetics.


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## doggiedad

this is a German Shepherd forum not a German
Shepard forum.


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## selzer

VaBeachFamily said:


> Not sure of the info on the OPs male... but... I would like to say something.......
> 
> The whole " he needs to have a Schutzhund title, or a police dog association or something of the sort" is kinda being a bit one sided... I believe that showing the dogs ability to WORK is quite needed before considering breeding... but Bitework style sports is only one option.. for instance, People like to down Cullen's bloodlines... But I have personally met his parents, and they are working dogs WITHOUT titles... They are herding dogs, used on the farm EVERY day, and that to me was just as good as getting a title... I watched them work, and they were amazing! Also, even a herding title, or maybe tracking and obedience? Why must it be Schutzhund/IPO/PSA?


I agree with you, but people on this site would probably change the name to WorkingLineGermanShepherds.com if it came to a vote. It is like, we know the showlines and performance dogs are out there, but we try not to think about it too much. Dogs who herd regularly should be equal to a title. 

And just because one puppy came out of such a pair, does not mean that all the puppies out of Schutzhund titled sire and dam come out smelling like roses either.

And I rarely hear of herding titles being used instead of Schutzhund as ok for breeding even though that is ok in the SV.


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## ed1911

Are the shutzhund dogs after the sleeve or the man? I heard from some pretty experienced K9 officers that most (not all) shutzhund dogs are sleeve junkies not much different than a dog with a great ball or toy drive. Just wondering if the drives are basically the same?


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## hunterisgreat

I was expecting a train wreck but you all behaved well... *click* for you all. Have a hot dog piece


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## Emoore

hunterisgreat said:


> I was expecting a train wreck but you all behaved well... *click* for you all. Have a hot dog piece


It's Easter time, how 'bout jelly beans?


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## RazinKain

Wow! Very gentle. I was already warming up the popcorn popper.


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## cliffson1

Yes, the SV does recognize Herding as a part of breed validation....did you also know in that herding examination the dog has to defend the sheep/shepherd against bad guy with sleeve?????(Least this was way the HGH was set up as validation for breed worthiness), Many of the herding advocates usually leave this out of the equation. They start off with bitework isn't necessary ala look at herding which SV allows as with Sch to validate working component, but forget to mention or don't know(which is worse because they obviously don't know enough about the German herding to see that this invalidates their point), that the HGH degree does has bitework in it. 
Look, I am not going to flame anyone on what they want to breed, none of us set up the breed or define it, already been done....some of us maintain the breed and some try to change it through personal likes or ignorance. Either way we all should have the facts and if opinions line up with the facts...its all good!


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## VaBeachFamily

Selzer.... I must say, this is the first time we have EVER agreed on something! Bravo to us! Haha

And, again, Yes. To both you and Onyx ( and everyone else). Yes I kno that Schutzhund is three phases, but I don't believe any of them really test BREED ability so much as being able to be trained in Obedience... I belive all three phases are obedience... Especially tracking! I would MUCH rather see a dog that can do real tracking ( I am converting Cullen, as I am told he is a top natural tracker), Would rather see a well behaved obedience VS. a strict dog trained to stare at me the whole time, and if I want protection work, I want to see it with a hidden sleeve showing the dog can protect and still be a family dog.. I also very much respect herding, but most people that use them as herding dogs don't bother getting titled... which was FINE by me, my dog came from awesome lines... his grandparents showing and working, and his parents being real working dogs... yet people don't approve of his lines for breeding... I will work with him in whatever sport I want, and don't feel the need to get a Sch title to prove he is sound... he is awesome all around, and gorgeous.. I will title him before I would consider it, along with all health tests and such.. BUT it most likely wont be search and rescue, or schutzhund... does that mean that if I do tracking, or herding, etc.. that he is LESS of a model GSD?


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## onyx'girl

ed1911 said:


> Are the shutzhund dogs after the sleeve or the man? I heard from some pretty experienced K9 officers that most (not all) shutzhund dogs are sleeve junkies not much different than a dog with a great ball or toy drive. Just wondering if the drives are basically the same?


Many are sleeve junkies, but that may be a training issue. Where I train we put the focus on the helper not the sleeve, so the dog will work in aggression and not in prey/there is a balance.


> I will work with him in whatever sport I want, and don't feel the need to get a Sch title to prove he is sound... he is awesome all around, and gorgeous.. I will title him before I would consider it, along with all health tests and such


Kristi, from the sound of your post you are planning on using Cullen for stud? Then you should get titles on him in as many different venues as possible so you can prove him to be an exceptional dog. There are so many males, and only a few are sought out for breeding.


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## CaseysGSD

Impressed by this thread!! This is how we should always act in order to help the poster to the correct place rather then scare them off and have them do what they originally intended with way they intended _instead _of being educated about it which was their goal in the first place!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I think it's because they were breeding a German Shepard and not a German Shepherd that it went so well. 

I personally was waiting for the Herd Police!


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## Stevenzachsmom

I think that Troy is in large part responsible for our good behavior. We get upset when someone posts, questions, but doesn't want to hear anything we have to say. Troy was amenable to the suggestions and information that was given. That speaks very highly of Troy. 

Thank you Troy and best of luck in your endeavors.


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## VaBeachFamily

onyx'girl said:


> Kristi, from the sound of your post you are planning on using Cullen for stud? Then you should get titles on him in as many different venues as possible so you can prove him to be an exceptional dog. There are so many males, and only a few are sought out for breeding.


No, not so much. I bought him and payed for Full Registration just in case. I don't have any intentions on breeding him at ALL, but I am going to work to show he's worthy, and if I ever WAS to breed him ( if the situation was to arise and I felt it was a good idea), then I should already have him titled and cleared healthwise.. but breeding is not the reason I am doing it. My last German Shepherd years ago was OFA excellent on hips and elbows, SchII, hearding certificate, TD, CGC... I never bred him, I just did all that because I believe you should  Now.. if he was to get that far, and I could prove him to be worthy of breeding it would be considered ( and yes, we have a female, but only because I don't want male/male dominance issues, and we already have that under control). I just want Cullen to have a good life, and he is so smart and willing to do ANYTHING that I will continue to work with him just because I can...


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## sitstay

Stevenzachsmom said:


> I think that Troy is in large part responsible for our good behavior. We get upset when someone posts, questions, but doesn't want to hear anything we have to say. Troy was amenable to the suggestions and information that was given. That speaks very highly of Troy.
> 
> Thank you Troy and best of luck in your endeavors.


Exactly! How refreshing was it for someone post, have them receive advice that pointed them in a direction they hadn't planned on and yet they didn't get defensive or offensive in their replies. 

Troy is the one who really set the tone here. 
Sheilah


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## BlackthornGSD

cliffson1 said:


> Yes, the SV does recognize Herding as a part of breed validation....did you also know in that herding examination the dog has to defend the sheep/shepherd against bad guy with sleeve?????(Least this was way the HGH was set up as validation for breed worthiness), Many of the herding advocates usually leave this out of the equation. They start off with bitework isn't necessary ala look at herding which SV allows as with Sch to validate working component, but forget to mention or don't know(which is worse because they obviously don't know enough about the German herding to see that this invalidates their point), that the HGH degree does has bitework in it.


Dogs with the HGH also have to do the normal bitework evaluation for their breed surveys.


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## hunterisgreat

Stevenzachsmom said:


> I think that Troy is in large part responsible for our good behavior. We get upset when someone posts, questions, but doesn't want to hear anything we have to say. Troy was amenable to the suggestions and information that was given. That speaks very highly of Troy.
> 
> Thank you Troy and best of luck in your endeavors.


I think that's a bit optimistic assessment of the normal scenario here.. Usually the OP gets attacked sufficiently by the end of the first page they just never sign on again.


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## martemchik

I think a title is just a simpler way of prooving your dog can work. In your situation you had to go watch the parents work and you really liked what you saw, and as cool as that would be not everyone has the time, or the want, to do that. So for a perspective breeder looking for a stud, a title proves that the dogs can do whatever it is they do without actually seeing it done. Does the fact that the parents don't have titles make them any less of a dog? No, but I'm sure there will be people questioning that if you ever do decide to stud. There's plenty of perfectly balanced untitled GSDs that are bred and produce excellent puppies.


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## Emoore

To me, a title is a proxy for seeing the dog work. You can watch a dog's parents work and decide whether you like their courage, nerve, and drive or not. But what about the grandparents, great-grandparents, etc? Aunts and uncles? You can't watch them all work, but if they have a SchHIII, MACH, or UDX, you can assume they can at least do the minimum required to achieve it. Titles are what keep us from having to watch youtube videos of every single dog working to know if they're any good or not. And before the invention of youtube? Oy vey. How would you know which dogs could do the work and which couldn't? Thus, titles are a good proxy.


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## Emoore

ed1911 said:


> Are the shutzhund dogs after the sleeve or the man? I heard from some pretty experienced K9 officers that most (not all) shutzhund dogs are sleeve junkies not much different than a dog with a great ball or toy drive. Just wondering if the drives are basically the same?


No offense to your friend, but most K9 officers aren't dog trainers, any more than equine officers are horse trainers or motorcycle officers are bike mechanics.


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## hunterisgreat

Emoore said:


> No offense to your friend, but most K9 officers aren't dog trainers, any more than equine officers are horse trainers or motorcycle officers are bike mechanics.


Exactly. They generally buy dogs, not train then. It's their own failure to not evaluate a dog or transition it to real work

At our club our helpers occasionally throw te sleeve and just agitate the dog in defense anyway, to ensure it's not all prey on the sleeve


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## Troyrobinson

hunterisgreat said:


> I think that's a bit optimistic assessment of the normal scenario here.. Usually the OP gets attacked sufficiently by the end of the first page they just never sign on again.


 
Thank you very much info and feedback is and was my main objective for sure .


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## Troyrobinson

Stevenzachsmom said:


> I think that Troy is in large part responsible for our good behavior. We get upset when someone posts, questions, but doesn't want to hear anything we have to say. Troy was amenable to the suggestions and information that was given. That speaks very highly of Troy.
> 
> Thank you Troy and best of luck in your endeavors.


 
Thank you for the compliment


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## phgsd

HGH rules have been changed...not sure exactly when it happened, but it was in the last several years. The dog used to have to do some bitework. Now, after each dog finishes its run, it is "tested." All that's involved is a helper coming out with a sleeve and stick, running within maybe 40-50 ft of the dog and acting a bit threatening. If the dog barks, it gets pronounced. If it just stands there, it gets present. If it panics gets insufficient.
It takes all of 30 seconds for each dog and it doesn't mean much. 

But for the KKL bitework...yes, the HGH dogs have to do the same as everyone else.


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## selzer

I think there may be more K9 officers than we like to think about that DO train their own dogs. In bigger cities, where money is more plentiful, dogs are probably purchased trained, and handlers are sent away for a crash course in how to manage the dog. And then the dogs are generally given training sessions at regular intervals, so that the dogs can continue to qualify at their annual assessments. 

But the rest of the places that have k9s, like our lab and malinois, and the GSDs in our sherriff's department. Usually the deputies or officers train their own dogs, and possibly one of the deputies is certified to train the dog handlers to train their dogs. Dogs might be imported trained, or they get green dogs, or many of them raise up puppies. 

I do not know if this is the best way to ensure the dogs are solid, but, I hope that the police dog trials that they need to qualify in each year are a sufficient test.


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## ILGHAUS

> I hope that the police dog trials that they need to qualify in each year are a sufficient test.


I've not heard that is a requirement but perhaps I'm mistaken.


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## Dainerra

that's what I was going to say. This is no requirement for k9 trainer, except what each individual department decides. Yes, legally there should be some type of formal testing for drug dogs or similar, just in case it is needed in court. But, if the department is willing to take that chance, they can.
As for dogs used in apprehension of suspects, I know many small town departments that follow the old junk yard method - find the meanest dog you can and make him even meaner so that he will bite anything that moves


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## cliffson1

Not in NJ. Any dog on the street must go through the academy, must have a formal training day once a month, and must have annual recert once a year. The typical academy is 16 weeks, sometimes 12 weeks for non biting certs such as scent work in explosives/narcotics. Format is set up similar to the way we set up our armed services in this country.


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## selzer

I know I read something years ago about how each dog has to qualify annually, but I cannot find it. And, it may be that with our current economical situation and all the cuts and layoffs in our sherriff's department, maybe paying for deputies and dogs to go and qualify has stopped being a requirment due to fund availability. The do have field trials for k9s and national trials.


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## Bristol

Heagler870 said:


> This is probably NOT the best place to put an ad out to stud your dog out.


Yeah.


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## cliffson1

Selzer,
In today's litigous society, no police dept. is putting dogs on the street that will either harm people(patrol dogs), or incarcerate people(scent dogs for explosives or narcotics), without training and accredication. The actions of these dogs are subject to scrutiny in a court of law and they must have credentials, just like to use a firearm, officers must have training and graduation from an academy or school. If you don't really know what the state of the use of LE dogs currently, it is misleading to float out these suppositions based on speculation and something I think I read. People will read this stuff and spread it like wildfire increasing the ignorance surrounding the good work done by our dogs.


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## robinhuerta

I know that the organization where my dogs were certified and placed, maintain their dogs (training wise) each month. The working PoliceK9's are required to attend, and be monitored.
Jody Turcotte who posted to a thread recently, actually works for one of the Police depts...and is one of the "trainers" for the organization.
They do not "put on the streets" dangerous dogs there...


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## Smithie86

Same requirements in CA for the k9s. Pretty strict.

And the comment of tracking being an obedience exercise - NOT. Have you trained or done tracking before? The dog develops their own style of tracking, they need to figure out things.


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## selzer

cliffson1 said:


> Selzer,
> In today's litigous society, no police dept. is putting dogs on the street that will either harm people(patrol dogs), or incarcerate people(scent dogs for explosives or narcotics), without training and accredication. The actions of these dogs are subject to scrutiny in a court of law and they must have credentials, just like to use a firearm, officers must have training and graduation from an academy or school. If you don't really know what the state of the use of LE dogs currently, it is misleading to float out these suppositions based on speculation and something I think I read. People will read this stuff and spread it like wildfire increasing the ignorance surrounding the good work done by our dogs.


So a police dog did not bite a mail man out of the blue? A police dog did not get loose and bite a child sledding down a hill? A police officer was not indited for kicking his dog to death?

There ARE police dogs on the streets that probably should not be, and there are police officers training K-9s that should not be. I think it is wishful thinking that this is not the case. 

I have talked to the guy that heads up the training for our current K-9s. I do not know that having dogs trained this way is the BEST way to do so. These dogs are being trained OFF THE CLOCK to save money for our county -- that is documented, public knowledge. I think that dogs that are being trained for police work by an agency probably have better tools and experience to train the dogs in a wider variety of disciplines and possibly better, more thorough training. 

Already one of the dog attacked a dog up in Ashtabula, and another went after my dog while I was walking him. Neither of these incidents were in the paper. People do not want the K-9s to get bad press, and lose support from the community. 

Because this is a k-9, I cannot hold an OPINION, that maybe individual departments training their own dogs is maybe not the best way? Or is it that I am unsure now whether they have to qualify each year. I thought they did. I know I read it in one of our papers, either the local police or the sherriff. But I cannot find that now after running google searches on the net and the paper. It could be that the information was recorded in our Gazette and not the star beacon. 

Since our Sherriff's department has threatened to scrap our k9 unit if they did not get their sales tax increase, and then did not get his increase, and laid everyone off, and has one patrol car for the largest county in Ohio -- all in newspapers, My guess is that they call out the dogs on an as needed basis, and maybe, they are not putting out money for annual recertifications during this crisis. 

In fact, I think they are not even calling out the dogs when they should. We had a situation a few months ago when an elderly woman wandered from her home and was lost. They called off the search in less than a day. When a fellow out there called at 1:30 in the morning saying that someone was calling for help in the woods behind his place. They said they did not have anyone to send. They told him to deal with it. A few months ago it was winter here. The lady was trapped under a tree. The man had to go and find her and dig her out and get a rescue squad for her. 

This is a small community. A community where one of our judges said everyone needs to go out and get a gun concerning all of this. 

I am sorry, but even the village k9 unit is run on donations. I do not think that if we do not have the money to send deputies to a woman calling for help in the woods, then we probably do not have the money for re-certifications.


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## Coastie01

selzer said:


> So a police dog did not bite a mail man out of the blue? A police dog did not get loose and bite a child sledding down a hill? A police officer was not indited for kicking his dog to death?
> 
> There ARE police dogs on the streets that probably should not be, and there are police officers training K-9s that should not be. I think it is wishful thinking that this is not the case.
> 
> I have talked to the guy that heads up the training for our current K-9s. I do not know that having dogs trained this way is the BEST way to do so. These dogs are being trained OFF THE CLOCK to save money for our county -- that is documented, public knowledge. I think that dogs that are being trained for police work by an agency probably have better tools and experience to train the dogs in a wider variety of disciplines and possibly better, more thorough training.
> 
> Already one of the dog attacked a dog up in Ashtabula, and another went after my dog while I was walking him. Neither of these incidents were in the paper. People do not want the K-9s to get bad press, and lose support from the community.
> 
> Because this is a k-9, I cannot hold an OPINION, that maybe individual departments training their own dogs is maybe not the best way? Or is it that I am unsure now whether they have to qualify each year. I thought they did. I know I read it in one of our papers, either the local police or the sherriff. But I cannot find that now after running google searches on the net and the paper. It could be that the information was recorded in our Gazette and not the star beacon.
> 
> Since our Sherriff's department has threatened to scrap our k9 unit if they did not get their sales tax increase, and then did not get his increase, and laid everyone off, and has one patrol car for the largest county in Ohio -- all in newspapers, My guess is that they call out the dogs on an as needed basis, and maybe, they are not putting out money for annual recertifications during this crisis.
> 
> In fact, I think they are not even calling out the dogs when they should. We had a situation a few months ago when an elderly woman wandered from her home and was lost. They called off the search in less than a day. When a fellow out there called at 1:30 in the morning saying that someone was calling for help in the woods behind his place. They said they did not have anyone to send. They told him to deal with it. A few months ago it was winter here. The lady was trapped under a tree. The man had to go and find her and dig her out and get a rescue squad for her.
> 
> This is a small community. A community where one of our judges said everyone needs to go out and get a gun concerning all of this.
> 
> I am sorry, but even the village k9 unit is run on donations. I do not think that if we do not have the money to send deputies to a woman calling for help in the woods, then we probably do not have the money for re-certifications.


Sure there are horribly trained K-9's working in backwoods towns that shouldnt even have programs. That is because there are horrible K-9 evaluators that work in backwood towns that shouldnt be K-9 evaluators. Until towns that dont have the money admit that they dont have the money and scrap their programs there will always crap trained dogs out there.


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## cliffson1

Selzer,
The issue was police K9 working the streets without certified training and accredication as Sue also noted. Just because a police dog bites a child, or anyone for that matter doesn't mean that the dog didn't complete the proper training. Police officers sometimes shoot people inappropriately...so do we Assume that they weren't trained adequately to use a firearm. You are certainly entitled to an opinion, just like the BYB you so often criticize...but when it comes to Law Enforcement dogs, your opinion shows a lack of real understanding and knowledge. Read your earlier post and you project that depts. are putting dogs on the streets with just the handler's training. If this occurs 1% of the time in America today that would be a lot....as a person who works with LE dogs and talks with people in the field from all over the country at the nationals, regional, and seminars, I think people should understand what the norm is. Certainly everyone is entitled to an opinion...but some opinions are not representative of realistic situations within a topic...and I find this usually to be the case of opinions from people who have no hands on knowledge about what they speak.


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## selzer

Cliffson, I was pretty sure the dogs actually have to qualify and be certified, and was hoping that that qualification/certification is a competent test, because SOME police dogs ARE trained by their handlers. 

And even dogs that are purchased trained, if taken by an incompetent handler will probably lose some of its effectiveness, training, and reliability. 

I thought that I read somewhere that these dog/handler teams had to pass annual assessments. However, I am now seeing nothing to that effect. 

In our current economic situation here, with the program nearly scrapped entirely, and deputies laid off, one would guess that yearly assessments would be put on hold as well. 

A question about the quality of something having to do with police is not a personal assault on all police officers. I do not understand the paranoia here.


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## cliffson1

Selzer, its not paranoria, its a matter of a lot of what you are surmising is not the way it really is. Every police dog is trained by its handler....duh....but the handler and dog still must be certified, trained, or accredited by an entity that will stand up in court and has standards. 
Whatever....lets let it go....My bad!!...Back to topic!!


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## Dainerra

cliffson1 said:


> Selzer, its not paranoria, its a matter of a lot of what you are surmising is not the way it really is. Every police dog is trained by its handler....duh....but the handler and dog still must be certified, trained, or accredited by an entity that will stand up in court and has standards.
> Whatever....lets let it go....My bad!!...Back to topic!!


well, I know a small town with a police dog. they bought it from a guy who "trains" police dog. The dog was unstable, un-controllable, and kept kenneled because it is completely out of control. It bit EVERYTHING it sees and the dept is VERY proud of this dog. Never been to any kind of training/certification nor have the people who may be called on to use the dog. The only constant person on the dept is the chief of police (in WV, a dept has 1 year to send an officer to the academy so small towns hire someone, work them for a year and then fire them when the time is up).
I am relieved to say that the dog never bit anyone before they finally had it put down. If the dog was in the car, it would bash against the windows trying to attack people walking by. They had this dog for 3 years before they realized that they had no control of it and put it down. 
The only accreditation was that the broker told them it could do scent work and apprehension.

ETA: Im not saying this is common, but that it's definitely not unheard of in some areas. 

ETAA: I deleted part of the post. the "handler training" that the chief went to was 6 hours, including drive time. they gave him a list of commands, put the dog in the car and sent him home.


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## cliffson1

And your point???? If this represnts .01 percent of the depts in the country what is the point????What is the relevance when 99.9 % of the depts DON'T operate this way. To throw this out as a representation of current police standards and training, is disingenous, misleading, and not worthy of discussion.JMO


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## Dainerra

no, Selzer said that she has heard of it. Her area isn't too far from the dept that I am talking about. I was using it to point out that she is correct - there is no federal law that says a police k9 has to meet criteria A,B and C. Some states may have certain requirements, but otherwise it's whatever the individual dept considers appropriate. and in many small town/rural areas, what you get is dogs just like I described. A dog that's only training is to attack anything that it is set loose on.

ETA: I was mistaken. The dog wasn't put down, it was sold back to the trainer. The dog got loose in the building and trapped the ladies in the Mayor's office in a side room. The Mayor decided that it was too great a risk.


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## Germanshepherdlova

That is sad, the K9's that are being described here. I personally have NEVER saw a police dog that was not well trained. I have even saw one in attack mode, and then at his trainers command immediately start wagging his tail and let my children walk over and pet him, and he was as friendly as can be. It was because of these highly intelligent K9's that I fell in love with german shepherds, and now my family would not be complete without our gsd.


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## Andaka

Hey guys, let's get back to the original topic. You can start another thread about poorly trained police dogs if you want, but it doesn't belong here.


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