# TOTW for puppy



## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

I have been feeding my pup TOTW for almost 1 1/2 weeks now. He switched over to it very easily. No bad stomach for the most part. Today his stomach was not good the one time he has been so far. My question is this... Today while I was at the EMS base he wanted to go. I told him no and he stopped (imagine that) and I walked him over to an area that was more suited for what he was wanting to do. Now he didn't act as if he had to go or was at all interested in going. I kept him out there for a while and nothing happened. Approximately 30-45 minutes later I was back at home where he is use to going. He got to his normal area and when he went it was bad. He doesn't act like he fills bad. He has been playing with the tennis balls all morning and following the cat around like normal. Nothing seems to be up with him. Could him waiting to go be causing his stomach to be upset? In my experience it takes a sick dog or a dog that has had a diet change to cause these problems. What do you experts think? Am I barking up the wrong tree or is it possible?


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## darga19 (Mar 4, 2009)

Could he possibly have chewed/eaten something weird?


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

Nothing out of the normal. The only thing he has had to chew on is the normal raw hide. He has been with me all morning. There is nothing in the house or outside in the fence that he could have gotten into. We got him some treats the other day for training but he has had none since last evening before dark and 3 BM's ago. 

His actions have not changed any at all. He is his normal self. I was just wondering if the stress from stopping could have caused it.


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## darga19 (Mar 4, 2009)

Usually if one of my boys have loose stool randomly (which is very rare), I find a strange chewed stick in the yard or a chunk of one of their toys missing. I know things like that can cause diarrhea.

My guess would be he ate something strange...maybe someone even fed him something off of their plate and it didn't agree with him? Someone threw something in your yard maybe? Who knows. I'd say that if it returns to normal quickly, don't worry about it.

I'm not a vet so of course I can't say with certainty, but I've never heard of holding their bladder or bowels causing diarrhea later on.


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

I have been over it and over it in my head. We have no trees that are in the fenced in area... Nothing can be thrown into our yard.. well shouldn't be since it's a 6 foot privacy fence all around the backyard. He doesn't have any toys that a piece is missing off of. He or my cat never get anything off the table since it's only Susie and myself here at home and we both don't feed them from the table. It just doesn't add up. I'm waiting on the next BM to see how it is. Shouldn't be long now.


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## mmarie (Feb 25, 2009)

Could he have picked up a stick or something at the EMS base (I ask because I don't know what that is). Or even just deciding to eat a little of the grass to see how it tastes?

Has he been to the EMS base before? Maybe he was stressed or overly excited or something at being in a new place? I don't know if that could cause a loose stool or not, but maybe a possibility?


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: rapnek74Nothing out of the normal. The only thing he has had to chew on is the normal raw hide.


could he have ingested any of that. its been known to cause diarrhea and/or intestinal blockage since it is not digestible.


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

He did not get into anything out of the normal. No grass eating or anything like that. I had him on a leash the entire time. Even at 8 weeks old as much noise as he has been around nothing bothers him. A train went by while we were there blowing the horn and he just looked at it. 

He may have ingested some of the raw hide. He is bringing those teeth in pretty good. I never knew that would cause problems since it's so little that he gets and I have never had any problems before with any dogs. What else would you recommend for me to have him chew on?


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

7 hours later and we now have his first BM since the bad one. This one was solid. Makes me wonder even more now. Thanks for the replys.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

My old dog would hold it so long that she would have runny poop. There were a couple of times when we were gone longer than 8 hours, and she would go down to the lower level to go. She had fine poo after that, so I always put it down to her holding it for too long. If your pup has more than one episode, then I would start questioning the food. How old is he? Some of the blends of TOTW are quite high in protein and may be too rich. The salmon is lowest, at 25%


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

He is not but 8 weeks old at this time. I got him at 6 due to a famly emergency. The owner of the pups has cancer and was due in California from North Carolina for treatment. She has to have a kidney transplant. Bad situation but he has done fine since we picked him up.

He is on the High Prairie food that is 32%. This is the first bad BM he has had on it.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I think that the TOTW is too rich for a pup. Can you get Orijen in your area? You want to make sure that the puppy growth is slow and this may cause too much too fast.
Are you familiar with this site? http://dogfoodanalysis.com/


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

I had thought that it may be too rich for him but we are always on the move. He gets at the most 2 days of rest the entire week. I work 1 day and off 2 then repeat. Susie is off on the weekends. Where ever I go when I'm off he is with me which keeps him on the go. When Susie is off on the weekends it's play time again even if I am working. He gets a lot more play time than your average pup. I guess that is one reason we have had so much luck with crate training since he is always tired at night. 


At the vet check up the other day he was 13.7 pounds at 7 weeks and 3 days. Right now I think he is pretty much on schedule and looks good. I'm scared to drop his protein since he is so active. He doesn't have another pup to play with but gets a good bit of roaming time with the cat. They chase each other around the house all day when we are inside. The cat has never been this active. Between the travel and the walks he gets everyday I figure he needs the extra protein. Could I be wrong?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

This was from the link I listed above and TOTW and Orijen are in the 6* rating: 
_Most of the foods rated in the 6* category have high levels of protein. The caution attached to these foods is an acknowledgement that some veterinary research suggests that feeding high protein dry foods to puppies may contribute to the development or exacerbation of musculoskeletal disorders (as excess calcium and overall calories are believed to). Equally there is veterinary research that suggests that high protein is not a factor (and we note that it does not appear to be a problem for puppies fed high protein natural raw diets). Until such time as the issue is resolved one way or the other, we continue to acknowledge that the issue may exist. We do, of course, welcome the provision of research on this topic._
Caution should be taken to wait for his 10 week vaccs before you expose him to places where other dogs go.


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

I have not seen any really well documented concerns about too high protein levels - for pups, adults or older dogs that don't have medical issues. I believe the concern is with too high calcium levels not protein. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong. There are grain frees that have high protein and fat for large breed pups like Orijen, and as MrLeadfoot pointed out the ingredients are practically identical to the Orijen adult. Wellness on the other hand thinks 40% protein is too high. Personally, I think high protein works with very active dogs. 
Onyxgirl maybe you are confusing calcium with protein?
OK, we posted the same time, I just edited to acknowledge that I just read your last post. Basically, there is no consensus on protein.
Again, I think if a pup is very active or comes from heavy boned lines like DDR, high protein or even calcium may not be a concern. I know a DDR breeder who advocates high calcium and because his pups are big boned, thick chunksters, he's never had a case of pano (w/c may be mainly genetic anyway).


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

http://www.newmanveterinary.com/large.html I think that 32% protein is a bit rich, unfortunately there is not a calcium analysis in the listing for most kibbles. I feed raw because Onyx got Pano at 6 mos. I believe her issue was genetic, but I think diet did play a role in her growing too fast. I had her on Nutro Natural large breed puppy(before they changed the formula) this was the breeders recommendation, and I didn't know better at the time. Onyx was an active pup, but some days I am sure didn't burn the calories she consumed.


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

There is no place that you can go now days without running into another dog or coming in contact with a location where other dogs have been. I don't take him to the locations that have high dog traffic like dog food stores or pet stores... if I do then he does not touch the ground, I carry him. He is still small enough right now for that. I have had a litter of beagles get parvo about 18 years ago and that was no funny thing. I did end up saving all of them but it was a couple of days of long hours keeping them up. 

I am very alert to his surrounding. If I go somewhere where he could get in a bad situation he stays in the truck with the AC on. He is really fond of the front seat.


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

thanks for the link onyxgirl, my interpretation of the article is it may be OK to have high protein if the puppy is very active meaning rapneck74 may be on the right track. (btw, nice GSD on that web page article)

There are so many factors that interact: genetics, diet, exercise, other environmental factors, etc. that unless one has a lab full of unfortunate dogs to experiment on with controls and everything we can't really know for sure. That's why I think the consensus in this forum is, "If it works for your dogs, then it works." Certainly a pragmatic approach.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Well, I am hopefully getting a pup in a month so this subject is of interest to me. I will feed the pup raw, and I think the breeder is introducing them to raw, but we have been discussing kibbles. It is like you say Ocean, in your last paragraph, so many factors!
I do give my dogs TOTW salmon a few times a week for a fish fix as it is hard to find a good cheap fish source where I live. And if they ever have to have kibble in an emergency(out of raw for some reason, or vet who won't do the raw diet if they had to stay for awhile)they will eat the kibble, reluctantly. I put Jack Mackarel on it...rapnek74 you should check out raw feeding!


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

I don't like the thought of raw feeding. It may work for some but the thought of having raw chicken in my house just doesn't set well with me. When I cook chicken for Susie and myself I feel I can never get the kitchen clean enough. I would just about rather buy it already cooked but I cook some dang good chicken. LOL. Another thing is when I take him out for the day. It's a lot eaiser to carrry a ziplock bag of feed with me than it would be to carry something raw that should be cold. 


I have looked at it and use to feed my dogs some raw chicken, beef and deer. It was always outside dogs that I hunted with so no problem with it being in the house. Of course during the winter I cooked food for them with beef, chicken and other meats mixed with rice and eggs. It kept them looking great with coats you wouldn't believe The only problem is you had to watch the eggs. It seemed like if we added to much egg their hair would get hard and want to fall out. I learned that the hard way. I had a 70 gallon cooker that I cooked it in. No kibble I ever feed would keep my hunting dogs up like the cooked feed. It was easier to keep in the winter and most of the hunting was in the winter so it always worked out well. Kibble would keep them up in the summer when they were all lazy. It was a lot of work and you had to have several freezers to keep it in but in the long run it was better for the dogs. Cost ended up being pretty close to the same.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I personally wouldn't feed TOTW, or most of the grain frees to a pup. Protein level is a concern. There is research supporting both sides of the argument, and nothing conclusive. And while grain free kibbles don't typically have a higher percentage of protein than a raw diet (which is fine for pups) it's not the % that is so much of a concern as it is the form and concentration of the protein.

The other concern with TOTW and many of the grain frees is calcium level and calcium/phosphorous ratio. Research has proven that excess calcium or inappropriate ratios can contribute to skeletal abnormalities in growing pups. Very few of the grain frees have levels and ratios that are within the safe zone for young puppies. 

We fed TOTW to our adults for quite sometime before moving to all raw and were very happy with it. However as we weren't comfortable using it as a puppy diet, we found ourselves facing the question of what to feed our current litter since we didn't want to wean them directly onto raw (way too much grinding involved). So while we probably will move them to raw in a few weeks once they have enough teeth and jaw strength to handle some bones, for now we're feeding them Orijen. It's also grain free, but they have formulas that are balanced appropriately (specifically in the aforementioned calcium/phosphorous area) for young pups.


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

It's confusing to say the least. Dogs from all walks of life end up just fine in the end off all kinds of food with all kinds of protein levels... along with every other level of nutrients. All anyone can do is hope for the best when raising a pup. The doctors have not found out what is really good for humans yet and look at how many studies are done on our body. It's for sure they don't know what is best for a dog. Until someone comes out and says for certain what is best and has facts to back it up then I will continue to feed what I see them doing the best on. Right now I have no problem with TOTW. I pick it up less than a mile from my house and he keeps it in stock. The pup looks fine and has plenty of energy to play all day. His stool looks good except for that one earlier today. If he starts having problems then it will be time for another change.


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## Venc (Mar 29, 2009)

Someone said to give Orijen but at the same time that too much protein might be bad for a puppy. So why is Orijen better than TOTW? When TOTW has less protein than Orijen

TOTW - 32%
Orijen - 42%

I don't understand much, and I really need to get some food for my puppy because I had to change him from Royal Canine, and went for Blue Buffalo and he hates it. What should I try?? My pup is 9 months old

Sorry for bumping into this thread OP


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: VencSomeone said to give Orijen but at the same time that too much protein might be bad for a puppy. So why is Orijen better than TOTW? When TOTW has less protein than Orijen
> 
> TOTW - 32%
> Orijen - 42%
> ...


the reason orijen large breed puppy is one of the very few grainless kibbles recommeded for puppies is because they keep the calcium levels lower than most (including totw). i personally worry more about the quality of the protein and not the protein % and have yet to find any reliable information indicating higher protein levels are harmful. if you were ok with the price for royal canin, then (at least where i live) orijen can be gotten for a very similar price.


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## Aquaholic (Dec 30, 2008)

Sorry for bumping into this thread OP [/quote]

the reason orijen large breed puppy is one of the very few grainless kibbles recommeded for puppies is because they keep the calcium levels lower than most (including totw). i personally worry more about the quality of the protein and not the protein % and have yet to find any reliable information indicating higher protein levels are harmful. if you were ok with the price for royal canin, then (at least where i live) orijen can be gotten for a very similar price. [/quote]

I had my pup on TOTW/ RAW, he was doing great, but I was worried about the High level of Calcium. 

So I gradually made the switch to the Orijen, but this did not sit well with him. ( I could give him 2 or 3 pieces of kibble and a few hours later it came out loose, but the rest of the stool was solid)

I tried another product made by Orijen (I think) called Acana, this has a much lower % of calcium and he has been doing great, he is totally switched over and never even had a bad stool. It is close to the price of TOTW.


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