# how to prevent pup from being food protectve



## fido (Oct 16, 2011)

getting a pup, but I'm worried that it will grow up and be food agressive, is there a way to prevent this. because of young child around would like to know that my kid could just a take dogs bone with no problem, if my kid got too close sometime.


----------



## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Read through this thread....

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...ls-when-eating-we-near-him-2.html#post2293723


----------



## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

The proper term for this is "resource guarding". Search that term and you will find many threads


----------



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i got my pup at 9 weeks old. whenever i fed him
i would reach in his bowl and hand feed a little.
sometimes i would take the bowl away. sometimes 
when i gave the bowl back i would put some meat
or chicken in the bowl. i use to pet my pup, straddle him,
lift his tale, rub his mouth, etc while he was eating.
my neighbors use to come over at meal times and
handle his food and do some of the things i did when 
i was feeding him. my dog is 4 yrs old and i still handle his food
when he's eating. i don't do it often but i do as a reminder
to him that's it's ok for his food to be handle.

during the summer one my my GF's clients was
standing in the kitchen while my dog was eating.
out of nowhere she bent down and started petting
his head. my dog never looked up.

i'm not saying my method is the way to do it but
my method has worked with all my dogs.


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

doggiedad said:


> i got my pup at 9 weeks old. whenever i fed him
> i would reach in his bowl and hand feed a little.
> sometimes i would take the bowl away. sometimes
> when i gave the bowl back i would put some meat
> ...


*What he said!*

*Great advice with a little puppy. Your pup will get so used to someone fiddling with his food (and quickly realize that he will still get to eat!) that he will not mind it at all; and also get used to any part of his body being fiddled with as well! Great when you trim his nails or take him to the vet also.*


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Also, teach your kids not to take the freaking dog's bone or food. Train your dog to respect the kid; train your kid to be kind to the dog. It's a beautiful thing.


----------



## JLOCKHART29 (Aug 23, 2009)

Emoore said:


> Also, teach your kids not to take the freaking dog's bone or food. Train your dog to respect the kid; train your kid to be kind to the dog. It's a beautiful thing.


Auron has had at least half his meals feed by hand since he was a little pup. I have video of him from his breeder in Czech eating his two brothers up at about 8 weeks over a chunk of raw chicken so I knew he was possessive. Taught most of his basic positions using feeding time as training time and at a year and half still do. Gets his teeth brushed afterwards one meal a day as well.
That said with all that work he will still rumble if I walked up and took it. He would like to do more and he tried a time or two but we have had several prayer meetings around hear and he knows better. With this dog and his genetics no one but me is going to just take anything from him period and I am not going to just try and tick him off. Its not right to the dog. Now an official command like the out is different. At least Auron would give you plenty of warning that you should leave his bone alone. If you ignore his warning and still try and take it well there are Darwin awards!!lol A child needs to be taught things like the dog. Auron will warn you. Some dogs will just bite first. The pup you are getting may never rumble at your kids no matter what they do or the training you give. One never knows with a pup for sure but whatbabout that stray on the sidewalk chewing on his bone?


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

JLOCKHART29 said:


> Auron has had at least half his meals feed by hand since he was a little pup. I have video of him from his breeder in Czech eating his two brothers up at about 8 weeks over a chunk of raw chicken so I knew he was possessive. Taught most of his basic positions using feeding time as training time and at a year and half still do. Gets his teeth brushed afterwards one meal a day as well.
> That said with all that work he will still rumble if I walked up and took it. He would like to do more and he tried a time or two but we have had several prayer meetings around hear and he knows better. With this dog and his genetics no one but me is going to just take anything from him period and I am not going to just try and tick him off. Its not right to the dog. Now an official command like the out is different. At least Auron would give you plenty of warning that you should leave his bone alone. If you ignore his warning and still try and take it well there are Darwin awards!!lol A child needs to be taught things like the dog. Auron will warn you. Some dogs will just bite first. The pup you are getting may never rumble at your kids no matter what they do or the training you give. One never knows with a pup for sure but whatbabout that stray on the sidewalk chewing on his bone?


Guess I would absolutely have to disagree with you (and probably a few others here) about this. 

If I have kids esp., I would not tolerate a dog that was food or anything else posseive - way too dangerous. If you have a dog whom not even family members can just reach out and take something out of his/her very jaws, that is like having a ticking bomb just waiting to go off! And the dog should also be trained not to react if a little visitor to the house happens to go next to them while they are eating or chewing or even just laying there.

Unless of course the owner can guarantee that this will NEVER happen?

I would suggest just to teach them a simple "OUT" command, if a ScH ferocious dog can "OUT" on command it can't be too hard to teach any dog to drop something they are chewing, can it? "Genetics" notwithstanding!

Of course kids and others should also be taught not to harass the dog but I actually think it to be easier (and probably more reliable) to teach a dog not to be aggressive with their stuff than to teach small children to always do what they are told, esp. visitor kids! Would you not agree with this?

Just how we do it, and it seems to work - at least with a bunch of GSDs from all backgrounds and over about 40 years of them. Not one growl or snap from any of them over food or toys.


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

Yep, what Doggiedad & Emoore said.


----------



## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

This is an excellent article about what resource guarding is, why your dog does it and how to prevent or "fix" it:

http://www.compliantk9.com/rawImages/CK9%20Resource%20Guarding%20v1.pdf


----------



## JLOCKHART29 (Aug 23, 2009)

codmaster said:


> Guess I would absolutely have to disagree with you (and probably a few others here) about this.
> 
> If I have kids esp., I would not tolerate a dog that was food or anything else posseive - way too dangerous. If you have a dog whom not even family members can just reach out and take something out of his/her very jaws, that is like having a ticking bomb just waiting to go off! And the dog should also be trained not to react if a little visitor to the house happens to go next to them while they are eating or chewing or even just laying there.
> 
> ...


No argument with you at all BUT some things can not be changed no matter how much training you do. I would NEVER let Auron around a child or anyone else unless I have direct control of him no more than I would leave a loaded gun where the child could get to it. I have my CCW and take it with me most places. Perfectly safe but I wouldn't leave it unattended. I live in the country with just me and my wife and a locked gate out front and electric wire around the perimeter. If I had a child Auron would have to go. Not because he is going out to try to bite someone but because people are stupid or in the case of a child innocent. Leave him alone and he will leave you alone. If you told Auron to out he probably would out then you would be able to take the bone. Just reach and take it... don't see it. A young child is not going to give the out then take it. He will just reach and take. The poster will one day have to make the decision as to keep the dog or not. I grew up with beagles and setters. Two of the most layed back dogs there are BUT I was taught as far back as I can remember to leave a dog and his food alone. Just common sense.


----------



## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

I have always, from the time each puppy comes into my life and family, exposed it to the fact that somebody in the food bowl, by the food bowl, playing with its bones/toys, taking it from them, beingtouched/ handled by anyone is a way of life and they learn to accept the handling/touching, food and toys being removed and given back as part of everyday life. doesn't matter who is touching you no matter what you are doing,its okay and nothing bad will happen, just an inconvience .
Have never had a dog bite someone while eating, playing, being examined by whomever. Yet my dogs love everyone and I have no fear that they will bite, growl or be aggressive to humans, small or large, big or little, loud talking or whispering, running or playing, walking or riding a bike.
I have never made a big issue out of everyday living and life, and my dogs have always gone along with that.


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

OTOH, the method described in the article seems to be likely to take a while to get to sucess if it does. 

One question that i would have for the author is this - what do you do if your dog really values whatever it is that he happens to have at the moment? That is what does she recommend you do when the dog won't give up what he has for your supposed "higher" value treat?

My guess is that the poor owner of the dog should just back off, and try again later when maybe the dog will decide that he does want the offered thing more than what he has (food or a chew or a toy). 

Maybe someone who favors this method of teaching a pet that he has to obey when given a command to "out' or "leave it" could respond what the owner should really do when presented with the situation that I described above when the dog wants what he has at the moment more than whatever bribe we are offering to trade (upgrade?)?

Personally I wouldn't have the patience to only train a dog when he feels like doing what I am asking him.


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

fido said:


> getting a pup, but I'm worried that it will grow up and be food agressive, is there a way to prevent this. because of young child around would like to know that my kid could just a take dogs bone with no problem, if my kid got too close sometime.


Good to think of this while your pup is still very young. It is very easy generally to train a dog to accept everyone in the family being able to take anything (even a real live bone or favorite toy) out of their mouth with absolutely no reaction other than to sit there and look at you waiting for you to give it back to him.

I think this is a needed training thing for any family dog esp. when there might be small children around the dog ever.


----------



## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

I totally agree with the above comments from Codmaster. 
I have always wondered the same thing myself, your dog is chewing on something and you walk by and the dog growls. You have taught your dog that you will always never just take something away without giving it something better.If you have nothing to "trade" with, by walking away after the dog growls, doesn't that teach him "oh goodie, somebody walked by, I growled and they left" I win.
Okay, so the dog is chewing on rat poison or something equally bad. Because you have NEVER taken anything out of its mouth, you always trade with him, what happens when you just reach down and take somthing away to save your dogs life? Will he bite you? 
I guess I just don't understand why alot of folks seem to think this is good training. To me, it seems you are teaching the dog its okay to be the boss of the toys/food, etc because nobody will take it away without rewarding the dog by giving him something "better". So, isn't that teaching the dog that it is dominate since nobody can walk by him, take food from his dish, take a bone away, take a toy away without him getting a treat so he won't growl or bite?
An adult would never play this same trading game with a child: the child has something bad and a parent takes it away for their own good, if they throw a temper tantrum, they go to their room or whatever, they don't get a candy bar for throwing a fit.
Why is it okay to teach a dog that they have the control over toys/food/treats, etc.? 
If I need to reach into my dogs mouth to take away something that might hurt it, you darn well better believe I am going to do it, not take time to find something better to trade for it. I guess this is just something that I firmly believe in, my dogs are living in my world and therefore need to follow rules that are made to keep everyone safe and happy and if that includes the neighbor child coming into my home and picking up my dogs toy while she is playing with it, or sticking her hand in my dogs food dish while there is food in it, then she better not even utter a growl or heaven forbid bite that child or adult for that matter.


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Very well said!


----------



## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Totally agree with above two posts.

Only difference is I do feel once I put his food down, it is HIS food. Beforehand, he's been required by me to sit and wait and once he complies, it goes down. Yes, I may put my hands in there, but I'm not going to play take-it-away games with him. He's hungry and I've provided the food and I don't think it's fair to remove it at that point. He "worked" for it and it is his.

Granted I do not have any small children in my family, but if I did, I sure wouldn't let them "mess" with my dog's food at dinnertime. 

Bones, toys -- different story. Those things are "luxuries" and can be removed as quickly as they were provided. When I say "drop" then I mean "drop." That item is gone if he doesn't readily "drop" as told. Very different than food in my mind. I'm probably crazy, but I think dogs understand "fairness." I think a dog is entitled to his food, free of fear of someone taking it from him. There are no such entitlements when it comes to bones and chewies, which are rewards/extras. Just my philosophy.


----------



## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

I see what you are saying chelle, but again I guess I have just gone about training my dogs all wrong for the past 45 years. Yes, it is their food to eat, but I am the one providing it for them. I give them the food.I own the food, the toys, the treats. They live in my home and therefore have manners. I certainly don't mean "okay, here is your food dish. Go ahead and eat. Oops, changed my mind, you get to starve, I am taking the food back". 
I put the food in the dish, make them do something for it, then set the food down and say ok. Now, if I put the food down, then think" darn, I wanted to put veggies, or vitamin, or egg,if I decided to reach down, pick up the bowl to put something else in that bowl, then I know I can freely take the bowl back. The dogs wait, trying to figuure out what crazy thing mom is doing now, then happily eat again. During this time, they are happily doing the "whatcha putting in my bowl dance, I wanna see, I wanna see". I am not being mean, I am not taking away their food for punishment, I am simple taking the bowl away to do something with it. Even if I just pick it up and then put it back down again, I have said" I can do this, I will". I don't have dogs that slink around thinking everything is going to be taken from them, that they are being punished. I have dogs that live in a normal household, with grandkids coming and going, with clients coming and going for dog grooming. They welcome people into my home by sitting beside me and when I say "say Hi", they lift up their paw and give someone the "high five". We also do this when walking and someone wants to pet her, she sits then gives them a "high five".
Like I said, I guess I have always trained my dogs this way." Its my world, welcome to it" from the time they come into my home.Not one of them has been traumatized because I take away their toys bones and food. They get it back, they don't get punished by this, it just happens.


----------



## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

wyominggrandma said:


> I see what you are saying chelle, *but again I guess I have just gone about training my dogs all wrong for the past 45 years.*


Why that attitude? I'd even agreed entirely with your post. 

I basically do what you do and I can also take the food back if I forgot to put the pumpkin in it or whatever... Especially when they're little I'll dip my hand in there, maybe handfeed a few morsels, stir the food around, just to get them used to a hand being around them and their food while they're eating. 

Too often, though, I've read people training puppies who just randomly swoop in and remove the food. Because they can. Not to put something yummy or better in the bowl, as you talked about doing, just simply to take it. I don't agree with doing that. That is not me saying you've done things wrong for 45 years!!??!! Geesh!

I don't have 45 years behind me, and maybe I'm just lucky, but none of mine are food guarders. I CAN pick up the food without any issues from them, but unless I need to, I don't want to.


----------



## mebully21 (Nov 18, 2011)

if i am eating and someone tries to take my food they will get stabbed.. but thats just me.

sometimes by trying to avoid an issue we create it in error.. like constantly taking food bowls away or messing with a dogs food.. if a pup is food possessive that means the pup had to fight for its share with littermates normally, or in the first home wasnt fed enough so the pup learned to eat fast to get what it could.

you can toss good yummy treats/food into their bowls, but i wouldnt even bother taking or messing with their bowls while eating

as far as the kid issues, teach the child to leave the dog alone while eating. simple.. if kid doesnt listen punish kid.. there is no reason why a dog should be annoyed with a kid near its food bowl.. just separate kid and dog during feeding time.. proper parenting skills 101.. every child that has come to my house has been told immediately do not go near dogs when eating and i make sure no one bothers my dogs at mealtime..


----------



## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

I don't have an attitude. I meant that there seems to be so many who say" oh, don't touch their food bowl" like its a bad thing. Some folks on here think it is terrible. I see nothing wrong with picking up a dogs food dish and then putting it back again, even if I am not putting anything in it. I have done that for years with every puppy of every breed I have ever owned and have never been bitten or had a dog that growls, bites, stiffens up at anyone or myself while doing this. Matter of fact, I start it the day the puppy comes home, first meals in fact is when they learn that it can be taken away, but will be given back. Toys and bones can be taken away and given back. Anyone can touch my dogs mouths, teeth, etc and they let them, because it has happened since a puppy. Holding, hugging, picking up paws, its just like the food bowl, they accept it because I don't lie to a dog, and I don't make a big deal out of it.
But, then again, I guess my training for all these years in many things don't fit with the way some folks do it, but I don't have aggression issues, don't have dogs that go crazy at the vets, don't have dogs that try to attack other dogs or kids on bikes, or trikes, or skateboards. I guess my training is simply my dog has to learn to live a normal life with everyday things that happen, including kids, food, vets, other dogs and so they learn to live that way. No hiding when folks come over, no charging doors, no biting or nipping. Its a way of life, things change daily, new noises, new walking paths, new people, its a part of building a dog that adapts to change and accepts what happens. My dogs have always learned to trust me that I will not get them in trouble, but they also learn to changes daily.
I have had alot of breeds in my time, and trained them all the same way. Not a big deal. I have had show dogs, obedience dogs and search and rescue dogs and just plain hang around the house dogs. All have been happy outgoing safe dogs.


----------



## vicky2200 (Oct 29, 2010)

As stated, from day one handle the dogs food while he is eating. Doing this, and ensuring that the dog is never hungry (starving) should help prevent this. We have never had a problem with any of our dogs.


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I think most family dogs aren't going to be food protective no matter what you do unless you starve them. A few others *will* be food protective no matter what you do. I honestly think all our training techniques in this area are just to make us feel better.



Obviously intervention training after a dog has _already_ presented as being food aggressive is another thing entirely.


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Emoore said:


> I think most family dogs aren't going to be food protective no matter what you do unless you starve them. A few others *will* be food protective no matter what you do. I honestly think all our training techniques in this area are just to make us feel better.
> 
> 
> 
> Obviously intervention training after a dog has _already_ presented as being food aggressive is another thing entirely.


I agree emoore. 
I also think that wyominggrandma and I raised dogs for many years much the same way. There are lots of ways to train dogs but I'm also of the opinion that if it ain't broke don't fix it. So I'm not against new ways but unless I know they will work better than what I've been doing I probably won't change. I'm speaking in general about training not just food.


----------



## warpwr (Jan 13, 2011)

doggiedad said:


> i got my pup at 9 weeks old. whenever i fed him
> i would reach in his bowl and hand feed a little.
> sometimes i would take the bowl away. sometimes
> when i gave the bowl back i would put some meat
> ...


*Exactly.*
We have always done this and have never had a dog resource guard for food with people.
Maybelline will grrr at Miss Molly a little if she comes too close when they eat side by side but never does it with a person.


----------



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i see being able to handle your dogs food for
any reason as a part of training. 



wyominggrandma said:


> I don't have an attitude. I meant that there seems to be so many who say" oh, don't touch their food bowl" like its a bad thing. Some folks on here think it is terrible. I see nothing wrong with picking up a dogs food dish and then putting it back again, even if I am not putting anything in it. I have done that for years with every puppy of every breed I have ever owned and have never been bitten or had a dog that growls, bites, stiffens up at anyone or myself while doing this. Matter of fact, I start it the day the puppy comes home, first meals in fact is when they learn that it can be taken away, but will be given back. Toys and bones can be taken away and given back. Anyone can touch my dogs mouths, teeth, etc and they let them, because it has happened since a puppy. Holding, hugging, picking up paws, its just like the food bowl, they accept it because I don't lie to a dog, and I don't make a big deal out of it.
> But, then again, I guess my training for all these years in many things don't fit with the way some folks do it, but I don't have aggression issues, don't have dogs that go crazy at the vets, don't have dogs that try to attack other dogs or kids on bikes, or trikes, or skateboards. I guess my training is simply my dog has to learn to live a normal life with everyday things that happen, including kids, food, vets, other dogs and so they learn to live that way. No hiding when folks come over, no charging doors, no biting or nipping. Its a way of life, things change daily, new noises, new walking paths, new people, its a part of building a dog that adapts to change and accepts what happens. My dogs have always learned to trust me that I will not get them in trouble, but they also learn to changes daily.
> I have had alot of breeds in my time, and trained them all the same way. Not a big deal. I have had show dogs, obedience dogs and search and rescue dogs and just plain hang around the house dogs. All have been happy outgoing safe dogs.


----------



## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

With five children, as stated in the thread I referenced, I work this issue from the time I bring the pup home...habituating the dog to the children being around and in their food with no risk of losing it to them...nothing more than an interruption. 

But if I had a dog that was unable to be habituated to this lifestyle, and still had these resource guarding issues....I would use the peanut butter method to remedy the problem.


----------



## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

wyominggrandma said:


> I don't have an attitude. I meant that there seems to be so many who say" oh, don't touch their food bowl" like its a bad thing. Some folks on here think it is terrible. I see nothing wrong with picking up a dogs food dish and then putting it back again, even if I am not putting anything in it. I have done that for years with every puppy of every breed I have ever owned and have never been bitten or had a dog that growls, bites, stiffens up at anyone or myself while doing this. Matter of fact, I start it the day the puppy comes home, first meals in fact is when they learn that it can be taken away, but will be given back. Toys and bones can be taken away and given back. Anyone can touch my dogs mouths, teeth, etc and they let them, because it has happened since a puppy. Holding, hugging, picking up paws, its just like the food bowl, they accept it because I don't lie to a dog, and I don't make a big deal out of it.
> But, then again, I guess my training for all these years in many things don't fit with the way some folks do it, but I don't have aggression issues, don't have dogs that go crazy at the vets, don't have dogs that try to attack other dogs or kids on bikes, or trikes, or skateboards. I guess my training is simply my dog has to learn to live a normal life with everyday things that happen, including kids, food, vets, other dogs and so they learn to live that way. No hiding when folks come over, no charging doors, no biting or nipping. Its a way of life, things change daily, new noises, new walking paths, new people, its a part of building a dog that adapts to change and accepts what happens. My dogs have always learned to trust me that I will not get them in trouble, but they also learn to changes daily.
> I have had alot of breeds in my time, and trained them all the same way. Not a big deal. I have had show dogs, obedience dogs and search and rescue dogs and just plain hang around the house dogs. All have been happy outgoing safe dogs.


I don't think your methods are in question? I admire that you've put so much work into what you do. I think there's more than one way to skin a cat, so to speak. Sure doesn't mean you're wrong or anyone is wrong -- it's all about the result. I've been able to get the same result by *not* removing the food once it's down. (unless I need to for whatever reason.) Point being, I CAN remove the food without any fuss, growling, anything. And I never had to take it away to get that result. And I'll re-state, yes, I do play with the food, handfeed, stir the bowl, etc... so their food is not completely uninterrupted, they're used to my hand being close to the bowl. I just don't take it away once it's down, that's all.! Prior to putting it down, they had to do something to get it, so I leave it be at that point. I don't see me being wrong for that or you being wrong for how you do it! Just different! NBD!

No offense intended to the poster who put up the pic of the child pulling the tail of the eating dog... but that's just not something I'd let happen. I understand where you're coming from saying you have five kids, but again, no offense, that doesn't seem fair to the dog. I'm glad the dog is so well acclimated though I guess.


----------



## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

I can remember when I was a child(about when dirt was new) and we had dogs that you could do anything too. The neighborhood kids usually played at my house and we had a GSD and a couple of mixes, big and small. All the dogs got along, all the kids played with all the dogs, dressing in clothes, pulling ears and tails, tackling dogs, roughhouseing with dogs. It was just the way dogs were raised back then. I can remember when my dad spoke, the dogs listened. Went on vacations, went for neighborhood walks, played at the school playgrounds. Dogs were a part of families and you very rarely heard of dogs attacking and biting. You could lay on the dogs while eating and it was okay. Nobody even questioned the dogs attitude, it was a part of the family and treated as such.
Back in the days when I grew up, if you did something bad, you got spanked and probably never did it again. I can remember getting my mouth washed out with soap for sassing my mom. Didn't do that again. Now, we have nerotic kids, they don't mind, they destroy other peoples property because they can, you go to a restaurant and the kids are running amok and the parents are ignoring them. 
Seems now days dogs are raised like glass.Don't do this, don't stress the dog, don't do that. I have seen more nerotic dogs now then ever before. Basket cases, panicing when faced with something strange, crawling behind the owners to get away from a child or a vet or whatever. 
I love my dogs and will do anything for them. BUT, they are still dogs and therefore need to learn to live in a humans world and be expected to listen and behave.


----------



## idahospud49 (Jan 28, 2011)

Even when I got the first puppy I raised at 11 1/2 years old the very first thing I do with my puppies is mess with their food while they are eating. I just reach down and tug the bowl away from them. It doesn't take long for them to figure out what the rules are. With my last dog, who was also my first GSD, I could literally and many times did, take a yummy steaks out of his mouth. He would look at me like "really mom?", but would do nothing else and wait for me to give it back to him.


----------



## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

wyominggrandma said:


> I can remember when I was a child(about when dirt was new) and we had dogs that you could do anything too. The neighborhood kids usually played at my house and we had a GSD and a couple of mixes, big and small. All the dogs got along, all the kids played with all the dogs, dressing in clothes, pulling ears and tails, tackling dogs, roughhouseing with dogs. It was just the way dogs were raised back then. I can remember when my dad spoke, the dogs listened. Went on vacations, went for neighborhood walks, played at the school playgrounds. Dogs were a part of families and you very rarely heard of dogs attacking and biting. You could lay on the dogs while eating and it was okay. Nobody even questioned the dogs attitude, it was a part of the family and treated as such.
> Back in the days when I grew up, if you did something bad, you got spanked and probably never did it again. I can remember getting my mouth washed out with soap for sassing my mom. Didn't do that again. Now, we have nerotic kids, they don't mind, they destroy other peoples property because they can, you go to a restaurant and the kids are running amok and the parents are ignoring them.
> Seems now days dogs are raised like glass.Don't do this, don't stress the dog, don't do that. I have seen more nerotic dogs now then ever before. Basket cases, panicing when faced with something strange, crawling behind the owners to get away from a child or a vet or whatever.
> I love my dogs and will do anything for them. BUT, they are still dogs and therefore need to learn to live in a humans world and be expected to listen and behave.


I totally agree, wyominggrandma, great post. Dogs are now raised to ride around in purses and when they growl or behave like jerks, they're poo-poo'd and ohhh poor baby this and that. Absolute nonsense. And so many people are raising their children the same way. I am very opposed to raising dogs OR children that way.

I never had my mouth washed out with soap, but I sure got threatened with it. Dad didn't fool around, though. When Dad "made it known," you didn't argue -- you straightened up and flew right or the wrath was coming down. Period. 

Different age, different time. I so very sincerely wish the youth was raised the same way now. I feel like my generation was the last to know that kind of upbringing. (Please, no offense to the younger parents who are bringing their children up in the sort of "old-school" manner!)

In the day, if you flunked a test, you got a big, fat "F." I don't think they even grade that way any more. Why not?

Bottom line, there is acceptable vs unacceptable behavior and that applies to kids and dogs... I am, almost daily, amazed at how people allow their kids and/or dogs! to behave! I guess I digress back to my own upbringing... when your kid or your dog goes off the beaten path of acceptable behavior, it is high time to lay down the law. Not 22 times after they've misbehaved. 

I'm not a mean dog owner and I like to believe I am a very *fair* dog owner. My dogs know exactly what is acceptable vs what is *not* acceptable and they know if they're over the line, mama is going to lay down the law. Just like Dad did. That doesn't mean any physical violence - I've never hit any dog - but it doesn't require hitting. Your voice, your stance... gets the job done if you're consistent.

Sorry to ramble... I did enjoy your last post, wyominggrandma and completely agree with you. As a sidenote, I love your state, too. I was once an over the road truck driver and crossed I-80 every week. Other than the tough winter weather at times, I was always happy and at peace running across Wyoming. I love it there. There's no place like Wyoming, in my opinion.


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

wyominggrandma said:


> I can remember when I was a child(about when dirt was new) and we had dogs that you could do anything too. The neighborhood kids usually played at my house and we had a GSD and a couple of mixes, big and small. All the dogs got along, all the kids played with all the dogs, dressing in clothes, pulling ears and tails, tackling dogs, roughhouseing with dogs. It was just the way dogs were raised back then. I can remember when my dad spoke, the dogs listened. Went on vacations, went for neighborhood walks, played at the school playgrounds. Dogs were a part of families and you very rarely heard of dogs attacking and biting. You could lay on the dogs while eating and it was okay. Nobody even questioned the dogs attitude, it was a part of the family and treated as such.
> Back in the days when I grew up, if you did something bad, you got spanked and probably never did it again. I can remember getting my mouth washed out with soap for sassing my mom. Didn't do that again. Now, we have nerotic kids, they don't mind, they destroy other peoples property because they can, you go to a restaurant and the kids are running amok and the parents are ignoring them.
> Seems now days dogs are raised like glass.Don't do this, don't stress the dog, don't do that. I have seen more nerotic dogs now then ever before. Basket cases, panicing when faced with something strange, crawling behind the owners to get away from a child or a vet or whatever.
> I love my dogs and will do anything for them. BUT, they are still dogs and therefore need to learn to live in a humans world and be expected to listen and behave.


I swear you and I grew up in the same place with the same backgrounds. 

Maybe it's why I have a hard time with some of this stuff.

My new puppy is going to puppy classes and we are using marker training with food rewards which is great. I will not however spend years shoving food in her mouth to distract her from all manner of situations. She will learn what no means. My kids learned what no means. I wish more people would teach their kids and dogs what no means.


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

wyominggrandma said:


> and you very rarely heard of dogs attacking and biting.


I firmly believe this is because you had three TV channels, local newspaper, and no internet. Now, when a Pit Bull mix attacks a baby in Poughkipsie, everybody in Sacramento hears about it within hours. And then Oprah does a special about dog aggression.


----------



## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Wyoming is a beautiful place, buthas been dumping snow, it is everywhere and tonight it will be about zero degrees. I am so not ready for winter.
Emoore, you are right about the channels and such, but still it seemed like dogs were expected to behave and be normal acting. Kids were too. When somebody told you to stop what you were doing, it was Yes mam, okay... Now, if you dare tell a kid to quit doing something, they either tell you to " go away" in not so nice terms, or call the cops saying abuse. I rarely see a male hold open a door anymore, most teenagers will just as soon walk over top of you or slam the door in your face than hold it open. (I have a 16 year old grandson and a 13 year old granddaughter. I have always expected my grandson to hold open doors for woman and elderly folks and say please and thank you. My granddaughter is polite in the same way)Young people just don't care(and I know there are lots that do care and are polite, so kudos to the parents who raised them that way)anymore. Its the way they are raised or not raised and with plenty of excuses as to why they do what they do . Dogs are the same way now, all the excuses in the world why they bite, bark, attack, instead of just going back to expecting them to be dogs, not children, and therefore to act like dogs. You show me a dog that has good manners, doesn't bite, attack, act stupid and nerotic and I bet the owner was raised by parents who made their child take responsibility for their actions and be responsible. It seems to go hand in hand.


----------



## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

OP, what has worked for us is 1) our dogs are fed in their crates. That saves them from nosing each others food and the other getting mad about it. 2) the ONLY time i ever handle their food is when i'm filling the bowls, hand feeding to encourage positive association, adding something new WHILE they're eating. I can touch my dogs anywhere on their body when they're eating. I NEVER take the bowl away unless i'm going to add something tasty and awesome to the bowl that i cant just add directly while they're eating. My kids can reach in the bowl and hand feed the dogs if they want to though i dont allow it. 

Simply put, dont give your dog a reason to feel the need to resource guard their food bowl. By adding tasty treats or hand feeding, you are letting your dog know that you being there is not a negative. And my dogs also know they'll always get the bowl back if i have to take it away from any reason. You've gotten some good ideas so far. good luck and remember keep it positive.


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

wyominggrandma said:


> I can remember when I was a child(about when dirt was new) and we had dogs that you could do anything too. The neighborhood kids usually played at my house and we had a GSD and a couple of mixes, big and small. All the dogs got along, all the kids played with all the dogs, dressing in clothes, pulling ears and tails, tackling dogs, roughhouseing with dogs. It was just the way dogs were raised back then. I can remember when my dad spoke, the dogs listened. Went on vacations, went for neighborhood walks, played at the school playgrounds. Dogs were a part of families and you very rarely heard of dogs attacking and biting. You could lay on the dogs while eating and it was okay. Nobody even questioned the dogs attitude, it was a part of the family and treated as such.
> Back in the days when I grew up, if you did something bad, you got spanked and probably never did it again. I can remember getting my mouth washed out with soap for sassing my mom. Didn't do that again. Now, we have nerotic kids, they don't mind, they destroy other peoples property because they can, you go to a restaurant and the kids are running amok and the parents are ignoring them.
> Seems now days dogs are raised like glass.Don't do this, don't stress the dog, don't do that. I have seen more nerotic dogs now then ever before. Basket cases, panicing when faced with something strange, crawling behind the owners to get away from a child or a vet or whatever.
> I love my dogs and will do anything for them. BUT, they are still dogs and therefore need to learn to live in a humans world and be expected to listen and behave.


That has got to be the best post I've read in a LONG time! 



> Different age, different time. I so very sincerely wish the youth was raised the same way now. I feel like my generation was the last to know that kind of upbringing. (Please, no offense to the younger parents who are bringing their children up in the sort of "old-school" manner!)


Sad to say, though, even those that are trying to raise our kids old-school... it's tough in today's world. I've got great kids, so I can't complain about them (good grades, no getting into trouble so far EVER and they are 15 & 17!) but with the way tv shows portray things and how "helicopter parents" are, it's nearly impossible. 
There is a comment made very often in this house by my husband... "uh oh, you pissed mom off". Kids or dogs (or cats) know when mom speaks, you better listen. I don't beat (I did spank), but my voice carries through this house and even if you weren't the one caught, you feel the wrath through your ears. Dogs too. They both lay down and look guilty even when Im yelling at my girls LOL I'm the calm one, but I even have that "look" that will make everyone sit & stay! 
As far as food... going back to the OP... it might be their food to eat, but it's mine to do what I want with. If I want to take it, you bet your tail I'm gonna take it and you are going to sit there and look at me with those big puppy dog eyes until I give it back.


----------



## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Kittilicious, great post..... I agree with what you said about kids and upbringing, it is hard in this day and time, but kids can be brought up to be respectful today, but parents have to step up and do it instead of "oh, kids are kids".
Sometimes you don't even have to speak, my daughter says to my grandkids" oh oh, grandma has "the look" in her eye. Watch out.
My dogs know the "look", sometimes you don't even have to say a word.


----------



## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

chelle said:


> ......I guess.


Apparently.


----------



## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

W.Oliver said:


> Apparently.


Care to elaborate on your drive-by post? :smirk:


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

> Care to elaborate on your drive-by post?


Yeah, I was a bit confused on that one too. Went and reread what you posted and I still don't get it.


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

. . . and they shot mustangs out of helicopters, zoos consisted of wild-trapped exotic animals in tiny cages, horse "breaking" really was, a woman who left an abusive husband was looked at with suspicion for being divorced, every public place had a "colored only" water fountain, and if you lived in the right place and were the right color you could beat a man to death and hang him from a tree and nobody would look twice in your direction. 


Every time period has it good points and its bad points. The "good old days" weren't always good and we tend to view the past with rose-colored glasses. 50 years from now I'll be telling my grandnieces and grandnephews about how much better the 2000's were.


----------



## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Emoore said:


> . . . and they shot mustangs out of helicopters, zoos consisted of wild-trapped exotic animals in tiny cages, horse "breaking" really was, a woman who left an abusive husband was looked at with suspicion for being divorced, every public place had a "colored only" water fountain, and if you lived in the right place and were the right color you could beat a man to death and hang him from a tree and nobody would look twice in your direction.
> 
> Every time period has it good points and its bad points. The "good old days" weren't always good and we tend to view the past with rose-colored glasses. 50 years from now I'll be telling my grandnieces and grandnephews about how much better the 2000's were.


Mustangs out of helicopters? Sure missed that!

Ok sure I'll go with you on this. As life moves ahead, there are positives and negatives... Your examples are pretty extreme! In large part, I believe the work ethic was stronger in earlier generations. I think earlier generations were FAR more respectful of their elders. Earlier generations didn't poo-poo their poor babies (dogs or kids!) the way it seems many do now. Not all of course, but so many. It didn't hurt me one bit that I only had four tv stations. I ended up playing outside and that's better than staring at a tv like tons of kids do every night of their lives now. Teachers nowadays have practically no authority because the parents cry too loud. Kid misbehaves in class? Ah, poor thing must be handheld because we need to be ultra sensitive to his emotional condition. Heck, we don't even give them "letter" grades anymore in many districts! It'll hurt their precious feelings too much! To me, all of that is nuts. If we raise them to be pansies, we get an adult pansy.


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Emoore said:


> . . . and they shot mustangs out of helicopters, zoos consisted of wild-trapped exotic animals in tiny cages, horse "breaking" really was, a woman who left an abusive husband was looked at with suspicion for being divorced, every public place had a "colored only" water fountain, and if you lived in the right place and were the right color you could beat a man to death and hang him from a tree and nobody would look twice in your direction.
> 
> 
> Every time period has it good points and its bad points. The "good old days" weren't always good and we tend to view the past with rose-colored glasses. 50 years from now I'll be telling my grandnieces and grandnephews about how much better the 2000's were.


I agree with everything you listed and there is a lot more that was not o.k. with the good old days 
By the same token a lot of young people seem to feel there is nothing much to learn from us old timers.
I believe that in spite of the negatives you mentioned we actually did get some things right. 
It's hard to be alive as long as some of us without learning a thing or two. Even if we had to learn from mistakes. 

I think generally children were better behaved and more courteous back then. I also think people in general were not so self absorbed. So I could go on with my own list but won't bother you with it.


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Agree with everything you just said.


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

chelle said:


> Mustangs out of helicopters? Sure missed that!


:hammer: They shot mustangs FROM helicopters! :hammer: Just had a mental picture of a mustang being shot out of a helicopter.


----------



## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

chelle said:


> Care to elaborate on your drive-by post? :smirk:


When I proof the dog on a behavior, the stimuli is/can be extreme...something not ordinarily experienced by the dog. If the dog successfully deals with the stimuli, then I am comfortable the dog has learned what I was endeavoring to teach. In this case, eliminating resource guarding and general tolerance with children..even if her tail is being pulled by a five year old girl while she eats.

How would your dog react?

I would refer you back to the thread I referenced at the start of this thread for specifics on my routine regarding feeding, children, and resource guarding.


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

W.Oliver said:


> In this case, eliminating resource guarding and general tolerance with children..even if her tail is being pulled by a five year old girl while she eats.


Serious question: At a later date, is the little girl debriefed and told that maybe it's ok to pull *this* dog's tail during training, but it's probably not a good idea to go around doing it all the time with, say, her friend's pets? Or elderly arthritic half-blind pets?


----------



## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

W.Oliver said:


> When I proof the dog on a behavior, the stimuli is/can be extreme...something not ordinarily experienced by the dog. If the dog successfully deals with the stimuli, then I am comfortable the dog has learned what I was endeavoring to teach. In this case, eliminating resource guarding and general tolerance with children..even if her tail is being pulled by a five year old girl while she eats.
> 
> How would your dog react?
> 
> I would refer you back to the thread I referenced at the start of this thread for specifics on my routine regarding feeding, children, and resource guarding.


Ok, thank you, I get it now. You're offended that I said I wouldn't allow a child to pull the tail of an eating dog. 

How would my dog behave? I have no idea. He isn't required to deal with *that* sort of stimuli. Call me a novice, call me an idiot, call me whichever you wish, but I wouldn't let that happen. I have no children in my household, so perhaps my opinion might be different if I did, but I rather doubt it. You opened this door, so I'll go ahead and step thru. 

I feel training the child (who is of an age to understand) goes hand-in-hand with training the dog. I don't think an eating dog should be required to withstand a child who is old enough to be taught better, to deal with behavior such as pulling the dog's tail as it tries to eat. I don't like your picture. That child IS old enough to be taught respect. And WHAT are you teaching the child? Oh sure, go ahead, pull the tail, it's all good? Really? WHY is that a positive thing for the dog OR the child?


----------



## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Emoore said:


> Serious question: At a later date, is the little girl debriefed and told that maybe it's ok to pull *this* dog's tail during training, but it's probably not a good idea to go around doing it all the time with, say, her friend's pets? Or elderly arthritic half-blind pets?


Absolutely. She could inform many on this forum about several training concepts/issues, like resource guarding, redirection, dominance, and others. That little girl has even handled a dog in protection work.

An aspect I am most please with, is the consistency with which she approaches strange dogs and always asks the owner before approaching..."may I pet your dog?".


----------



## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

chelle said:


> How would my dog behave? I have no idea. He isn't required to deal with *that* sort of stimuli.
> 
> ......but I wouldn't let that happen.
> 
> ...


Few key points here on training both children and dogs.......

You have no idea how your dog would react to that type of excessive stimuli because you haven't trained/exposed your dog to that aspect of socialization/environmental condition.

Very, very important concept in training isn't about what you would or wouldn't let happen....it is about conditioning the dog to situations you have no control of...and ensuring to the best of your training ability that the dog, of solid nerve, will react appropriately in environmental conditions that you have no capacity to control. The dog in the photo is a pup training in SchH and does bite work. Having said that, she is conditioned such that even if a child pulls her tail, she will not turn and bite.

Having no children in the house would not stop me from socializing my dog with children, and proofing their acceptance of children.

Your assumption is flawed in the notion that every child your dog may be exposed to is of a trainable age to understand. Younger children, toddlers, certainly should never be with a dog of any type or size unsupervised, but again, if you're training/socializing the dog to the level I strive to achieve, the dog should be trust worthy with the smallest children. In 14 years of training, I have only had two biting incidents...in both cases the dogs were OK, and the only negative for the children was a mouth full of fur. In both cases, the dogs reacted with care for the little lambs, even when those lambs were inflicting sufficient pain for the dog to yelp. Again, you train for a dog reacting appropriately to environmental situations you cannot control.

The last part of your quote above is the real issue...you simply don't like the picture....why? Because you don't understand the training it represents. The logic behind the last statement is as flawed as if you witnessed someone give a dog a correction with a pinch collar and assumed after that single correction they walk the dog constantly popping the collar like a machine gun?

The amusing aspect of this is that the five year old in the photo could have explained this activity to you...why she did it, and what we were working on with the dog.

I hope this discussion is cause for you and others to maybe think about your own dog's training, socialization, and exposure to environmental conditions...and if you're not confident with how they would react...start working on it.

It is just foolish in the context of this thread and the topic of discussion to assume the dog has to endure tail pulling on a routine basis, and I hope it is now clear this simply represents an extreme in the environment to proof the dog.....I guess.


----------



## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

Allow me to labor the point on environment control, or the lack thereof....









My apologies to those of you who have endured this photo before, but recycling it yet again adds to the point.

We all certainly strive to control the environment to which our dogs are exposed, but there can and will be situations that are simply out of your control, and that a reasonable person would not have anticipated. Obviously we can imagine the worst, and to ensure things don't happen, we could control the environment such that our dogs live in a bubble...in a kennel, or in a crate all the time to keep them from the unpredictable....but is that really the lifestyle you want for you and your dog?

The answer is first, doing your homework on the breeder, and the dog that fits your life, such that you acquire a dog of solid nerve, with an appropriate temperament for what you plan on doing with the dog. Then the onus is on you to train the dog. To socialize the dog, and to expose it to environmental conditions to build on the genetics the dog brings to the equation.

Who would predict when you're in a field working on obedience that a deer would simply walk out of the woods? Wouldn't most deer avoid a wolf in the field? So if you've never trained for an emergency down (platz), and if you've never proofed a long down....how would your dog react? Would it run off, in high prey drive, never to be seen again, or would it down on command and stay there until you told it otherwise?

Not having children is simply an excuse to fail at exposing your dog to a common environmental condition which is a key component of socialization.


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

> Who would predict when you're in a field working on obedience that a deer would simply walk out of the woods? Wouldn't most deer avoid a wolf in the field? So if you've never trained for an emergency down (platz), and if you've never proofed a long down....how would your dog react? Would it run off, in high prey drive, never to be seen again, or would it down on command and stay there until you told it otherwise?


My golden would do exactly what your dog is doing in the picture. She walks off leash all the time (in town & out) and she sees squirrels, birds, cats, rabbits... and deer. She goes to run, then turns to me and realizes it isn't ok so she either sits & watches or continues to walk with me & watches. She is allowed to chase birds in open fields if I say "ok, go find the birds!", but she never runs farther than 10-20 yards away from me... even if she's in chase. I could have gotten a picture similar to that with a deer last summer, but of course I didn't have my camera - or my cell phone! 
Now, my GSD, we'll work on that. He has yet to be in that situation, but I expect nothing less from him than what my golden does.


----------



## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

W Oliver, you explained it better than I tried to. I applaud the training you do with your dogs. I have always felt that dogs should adjust to living with humans, not the other way around... 

Chelle: when you asked about why the dog had to tolerate a little girl pulling its tail and that you have no children, etc. and the whys of the training and that most dogs would not have to deal with that...
It reminds me of training horses. You train a horse to allow a rider on its back, to carry a rider around and train it to deal with guns going off, kids kicking its belly, kids running around, dogs running around, things in the bushes, tarps flapping in the breeze and the list goes on and on. Maybe you are going to train a horse to live with an adult rider with no kids. But you still do this same training to desensatize a horse to all kinds of spooky things because even though the new owner might not have a kid, maybe the next time the rider goes on a ride and meets up with kids that are running around the horse will be safe. And a horse can hurt a person if its not trained correctly. A horse in a box stall being protected all its life can't understand the real world and all the boogiemen out there.
Same concept with dogs. If they are taught about all the "boogiemen" out there and the things that can happen around them daily, they will accept things instead of living in a " well I don't have kids so don't need to make my dog used to kids" or whatever might lie ahead. Dogs do live in OUR world, we don't live in their world. They need to learn to expect the unexpected and be able to be safe and predictable when it does happen


----------



## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Is it difficult to mount that high horse? *I guess* it is. Sarcasm can be cute; condescension is a turn off.



W.Oliver said:


> Few key points here on training both children and dogs....... You have no idea how your dog would react to that type of excessive stimuli because you haven't trained/exposed your dog to that aspect of socialization/environmental condition.


True. Nor will I. See below.



W.Oliver said:


> Very, very important concept in training isn't about what you would or wouldn't let happen....it is about conditioning the dog to situations you have no control of...and ensuring to the best of your training ability that the dog, of solid nerve, will react appropriately in environmental conditions that you have no capacity to control.


No argument here; however, I do have the capacity to control what is occuring in the vicinity of my dog when he's eating.



W.Oliver said:


> Having no children in the house would not stop me from socializing my dog with children, and proofing their acceptance of children.


May I borrow your children?



W.Oliver said:


> Your *assumption* is flawed in the notion that every child your dog may be exposed to is of a trainable age to understand.


 No, you are flawed as I never said this, nor put forth any assumptions. I did say the child in the picture was at a trainable age.



W.Oliver said:


> The last part of your quote above is the real issue...you simply don't like the picture....why? Because *you don't understand the training* it represents. The logic behind the last statement is as flawed as if you witnessed someone give a dog a correction with a pinch collar and *assumed* after that single correction they walk the dog constantly popping the collar like a machine gun?


Is there even a "real" issue anymore? It would seem it has devolved into whether or not a tail should be pulled when a dog is eating. 

I don't need you to explain what I understand or do not understand. I understand perfectly what the purpose is. 



W.Oliver said:


> I hope this discussion is cause for you and others to maybe think about your own dog's training, socialization, and exposure to environmental conditions...and if you're not confident with how they would react...start working on it.


 I still won't, nor allow anyone, to pull my dog's tail while eating.



W.Oliver said:


> It is just foolish in the context of this thread and the topic of discussion to *assume* the dog has to endure tail pulling on a routine basis, and I hope it is now clear this simply represents an extreme in the environment to proof the dog.....*I guess*.


*I guess* so.



W.Oliver said:


> Not having children is simply an excuse to fail at exposing your dog to a common environmental condition which is a key component of socialization.


I'm using excuses then. That's why I started this thread awhile back: http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...r-dog-around-children-when-you-have-none.html . I just posted that because I was bored. For some reason, I've had trouble getting strangers to loan me their children. If you know of any I can borrow, let me know. I'll take good care of them, I promise. But they still can't pull tails.


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Heh! Heh! Heh!


----------



## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I think people overthink things. I can't say I've ever questioned that either of my dogs would be resource guarders. They have rules, and it is understood from the beginning that I am the one that controls the fun and food. With that said, I don't screw with my dogs just to do so. I can and have taken plenty of things away from them, but I don't take food away "just to do it."

A very good dog trainer I know uses the motto:
Firm, fair, and fun

This was in regards to SchH training, but I think it should carry over to everything. Start with being firm and consistent. But always be fair in your corrections and life in general with your dog. And at the end of the day, but his buddy.

However, I do think that there are dogs that will ALWAYS be resource guarders.


----------



## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

chelle, so can I take from this you prefer the drive by response after all?  If we lived closer, I would certainly work with you, and my kids, to socialize your dogs...the kids would enjoy it, and so would I.


----------



## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

W.Oliver said:


> chelle, so can I take from this you prefer the drive by response after all?  If we lived closer, I would certainly work with you, and my kids, to socialize your dogs...the kids would enjoy it, and so would I.


Nah, I don't like drive-by's.  I do appreciate an intelligent exchange. Really, bottom line, is I want this dog to be the most socialized, most tolerant and well adjusted dog HE is capable of being. I will go to all ends to ensure he AND I are trained to the maximum extent we can be. 

This dog's nerves are not truly known. We're learning as we go. He's a byb pup. His mother is incredible, his father is unknown. Long story. No, it is not what I would've chosen, but he's here now and we're working. Daily. I can't recall anything I've worked on this hard for years and years. My prior two pb dogs did not require what I'm doing now. 

This retarded video is just for you:  (PLEASE ignore my big butt in the beginning, ugh.) Admittedly, I'm being very goofy and the "tail" comment is for you.  It's just he and I here, no kids. We do what we can.

Wish you were closer, I'd totally take up your offer.





 
I'm not smart enough to rotate it properly. I tried 12 times. Maybe it'll be rotated by the time it shows here.


----------



## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Chelle, if that High horse comment was meant for me, it was rude of you.
I used horses as an example, you train them to accept the unexpected. Just like I train my dogs and it sounds like there are plenty on this forum who train like I do, our dogs are trained and subjected to the unexpected to make them safe and easy to be around. Nothing wrong with that.


----------



## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

wyominggrandma said:


> Chelle, if that High horse comment was meant for me, it was rude of you.
> I used horses as an example, you train them to accept the unexpected. Just like I train my dogs and it sounds like there are plenty on this forum who train like I do, our dogs are trained and subjected to the unexpected to make them safe and easy to be around. Nothing wrong with that.


No, it wasn't directed at you. I thought about that after posting, how it might appear that way after you talking about horses. I should've been more clear.


----------



## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

The high horse comments were intended for me...Heh!, Heh!, Heh!

chelle, I would say with a bit of work you've got a dog that is capable of a CGC, and from what I saw, I would be surprised if kids were a problem. Certainly have to work though some introductions and exposure.


----------



## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

chelle, thanks. I wondered what I did to deserve that. lol


----------



## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

W.Oliver said:


> The high horse comments were intended for me...Heh!, Heh!, Heh!
> 
> chelle, I would say with a bit of work you've got a dog that is capable of a CGC, and from what I saw, I would be surprised if kids were a problem. Certainly have to work though some introductions and exposure.


A "bit" of work is likely a vast understatement , but thank you, and that IS our eventual goal. 

Bailey does not seem to like toddlers and is reactive if they're too close. He wants nothing to do with them. It's a fear reaction, no doubt. It may possibly go back to an experience he had with a two year old that wouldn't let him be. I really don't know. It's frustrating to me. The exact child he's fearful of is the child who I cannot explain things to or ensure their behavior around him. I can't risk a bad reaction, a nip, etc. 

Yet, this same dog can watch toddlers and every other child under the sun zoom by on skateboards, training wheels, strollers, big wheels, bicycles, scooters, you name it, *anything* at all, and as long as he's back from them, (we aim for six feet or so), he doesn't care. Just watches them pass by. He even got to where he'd just lay down like he was bored. (We'd camp out at the city park and watch all this pass by.)

But Lord forbid, a little toddler might come up *close* to him. (within a few feet.) Bark, bark, fear reaction. I've had to tell a couple parents that my dog isn't friendly to small children. I HATED having to say that, but I couldn't be sure of his behavior and in those two instances, the parent was more than willing to just allow their young babies to approach an unknown dog. :headbang:

This could be my most frustrating issue with him. I simply cannot trust this dog around the really little ones. He's afraid, and I don't know if he might fear-bite. I can't take that chance, so that also ruins all opportunity for exposure. A child old enough to talk to him, to offer a treat, etc is accepted by him. He does show some reluctance at first, but it only lasts a moment and his tail is beating someone up as it wags. Whenever we're out and about and a child wants to pet him, I make sure the parents are ok with it, I talk to the kid, tell them he's a little scared, really talk to them and have the child offer him a treat. It works. With kids I can explain this to, it works. 

It's been suggested I go hang out around an elementary school and just let Bailey watch the kids run all over, but I work full time... so can't hardly get there in time. This is what I did with my oldest dog, because I was there to pick my son up, anyway. I'd go early and we'd stand outside as school let out. Poor girl was literally accosted by little kids coming out. She was cute, white, fluffy and all the kids wanted to pet her. I can't do this sort of thing anymore. 

Sorry to ramble, but THIS issue is one I just can't find an answer to. 

I was pissed off at the dog park last week, when I was leaving, a couple of women came in, their dogs dragging them, along with two very young kids... one maybe a year, the other maybe two years old. The rule is children must be 10 to be in the dog park. I panicked a bit, thinking OH GOD what if Bailey and I had been in the park when the dinky kids came in? 

One of the little munchkins came running right up to Bailey and I. I'd seen them coming and had already veered off the main sidewalk, away from them and put Bailey in a sit, with the fence to his left and me to his right, blocking. Precaution measure. As munchkin #1 ran up to us, I told the child, "Do not pet my dog." Just simple language I wanted her to understand right away, to stop her approach. Bailey was a little tense, and I had to do the sit more than once, but he did a good job. When one of the women heard me, she told her child, "That's a mean dog." Maybe she was also simply using language her child would easily understand, but I wasn't happy. She was a fool to bring her young babies into a dog park, her own dog was ripping her shoulder off, (which was why she was very distracted and not minding her children.)

As I thought about it later, I think Bailey would've run from those kids like the plague and it would've been fine, but what were they thinking? The way some of those dogs play, those kids could so easily be knocked over?!

Sorry, sorry, sorry to go on... but if anyone has solid advice, I'm all ears.

I completely and totally hijacked this thread. VERY SORRY!


----------

