# Bloodlines



## MattA519 (Feb 25, 2012)

Hey everyone, im going too be getting my new gsd pup soon and im stuck on which line would be best for myself. The few bloodlines i know of are
-West german showline
-American showline
-german working line.. The thing is that im not a police officer or anything so i dont see the need for a "working dog'' if its not going to work. I do enjoy long hikes and my dog has too be able too protect me. I love the way the german showlines look for example the red/black they are beautiful. The thing im worried about is the sloped back im kind of against it.. I was just hoping too get some opinions if i should get a working dog or a showline GSD. Thanks alot


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Where are you located?

What sorts of things do you plan to do with your dog?

Do you have any children/other family/pets?


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

-German Show lines are very beatiful with their rich black and red coats, but I agree with you, the severe sloped back is not my favorite quality. This also can cause hip problems in the future, and can make the dog uncomfortable with walking/jogging long distances. They also have very high energy (though not as much as the Working line), so as you probably already know, you will have to take your dog on at least one 2-3 mile walk a day (but don't overwork him/her until he/she is at least 10 months).
-German/Czech Working lines are very high energy and outgoing. They mostly come is Sables, bi-colored, and solid black. They are the main line that Police and military forces use. They have a straight back. These dogs are best for working.
-American lines tend to have longer bodies and leaner structure, but they still need lots of exersize daily (2-3 mile walk a day). They also tend to be more timid around strangers and will become very fearful of strangers if they are not socialized properly at an early age. They may not have as good protective instincs as both of the German/Czech lines. They also tend to be more high strung or nervous. 

I don't know if this helped any, but good luck!


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

first off - good for you for researching!

Take some of the posters comments - BOARD WIDE!!! - with a huge grain of salt!!!!!!!!!! look at what they do, have done and what their level of expertise lends to their opinions.


The West German show - or High - line is not known for the "sloping back" - some lines have a roach (also unsightly IMO) - but the strong slope iwht the dog walking low on it's hocks is more characteristic of the ASL dog. This has NOTHING - I repeat NOTHING - to do with Hip Dysplasia!!!!!!!! HD is the way the femoral head fits into the pelvis ....heck I think **I** am probably dysplastic!!!!!!!!!



If bred properly,with care for stability and solid temperament, either European type can provide you with a good solid companion dog.

Many people cannot read "protective instincts" and often label insecurity and defense aggression wrongly. This can be in any category of breeding...and often in dogs bred by people who "just want to breed pets" - therein lies the source of so many dumped dog IMHO....

A "working" GSD is not meant JUST for police/SAR work. A well balanced, well bred European working line is just as suitable as any other type of GSD. Stability in temperament is the key to having a solid companion dog.

ALL dogs need to be trained to be good family members - no matter the type or even breed.

FWIW - I would say get a good working line pup from a very knowledgeable breeder.

Lee


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

HarleyTheGSD said:


> -German Show lines are very beatiful with their rich black and red coats, but I agree with you, the severe sloped back is not my favorite quality. This also can cause hip problems in the future, and can make the dog uncomfortable with walking/jogging long distances.


I'm sorry, what is your experience with German Show Lines dogs? I own working lines and they are my clear favorite, but I have friends with German Show lines and I can promise you that they are not any more prone to hip dysplasia than working lines and they are _certainly_ not uncomfortable with walking and jogging long distances.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

My breeders showlines run just as far and long with her horses each and every day as her working lines do.

Genetics in both lines plays a huge part in determining if your dog is prone to HD, not if they come from show or working lines.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

HarleyTheGSD said:


> -German Show lines are very beatiful with their rich black and red coats, but I agree with you, the severe sloped back is not my favorite quality. This also can cause hip problems in the future, and can make the dog uncomfortable with walking/jogging long distances.


"sloped back" has nothing to do with hip dysplasia or being able to go long distances.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

My American Show Lines are sound of mind and body. I have herded sheep all day with them and never had a problem. They also have good hips (have had a few "excellent" ratings). As with any of the lines, you have to choose your breeder carefully.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

I have to agree with Wolfstraum, a good working line pup from an experienced breeder would be a good fit. A German Highline dog could fill the bill as well. Just do your due diligence, it is a big purchase that you will (hopefully) live with for many years. 
If you'll post your general location you will get some links to breeders. That should be a good start.
In my house I have 8 GSDs, 6 are working lines and 2 are Highlines. They are all house dogs.


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## MattA519 (Feb 25, 2012)

Thanks for all the replies guys was very helpful. I live in Ontario,Canada so if you could let me know of some good breeders around here that would be great, I also dont mind driving a little while too get my pup ! thanks again


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

My German Showlines have as much endurance as any line , they keep up with my horses as we ride miles on trails and they don't have severely sloping backs or bad hips, I've yet to have a German Showline with bad hips, but what I've always had are beautiful dogs with sound minds and bodies capable of doing anything asked of them.


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## MattA519 (Feb 25, 2012)

Yes i love both showline and working line. Just if you guys could help me find some breeders in Ontario it would be nice, thanks


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## BUBBAGSD (Jul 16, 2010)

hi matt

when you say showlines do you mean german or american/canadian showlines ?


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## MattA519 (Feb 25, 2012)

I Like the German SL


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## MattA519 (Feb 25, 2012)

Also in my opinion i think that a WL dog should only go too a home where it has a job.. for example police. If your going too have a working dog i think its stupid to keep it as a house dog when its meant too have a job and be working, it is not fair too the dog.. this is why i am leaning more towards the SL GSD.


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## Miss Molly May (Feb 19, 2010)

check out Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs
Wendelin Farm
my next one will probably be from one of them!


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## Miss Molly May (Feb 19, 2010)

MattA519 said:


> Also in my opinion i think that a WL dog should only go too a home where it has a job.. for example police. If your going too have a working dog i think its stupid to keep it as a house dog when its meant too have a job and be working, it is not fair too the dog.. this is why i am leaning more to wards the SL GSD.


If you are from the GTA like most Canadian members here there are tonnes of clubs(shutzhund, agility,....) Our Molly is a house dog but that does mean she stays in the house all time. We never let her out tied up she is always by our side no matter what we are doing. We do tons of different activities with her hiking, fishing, fetch, we are starting class three day a week in March (agility and more obedience classes) She gets more then enough mental and physical stimulation


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

MattA519 said:


> Also in my opinion i think that a WL dog should only go too a home where it has a job.. for example police. If your going too have a working dog i think its stupid to keep it as a house dog when its meant too have a job and be working, it is not fair too the dog.. this is why i am leaning more towards the SL GSD.


*I really think it depends on the individual dog. You can probably find a dog with the characteristics (not appearance) you want in any of the lines.*

I think you are more likely to find a dog with lower drives in the showlines but that is not a given. If you prefer showlines though, then by all means search to find a suitable one.

In any of the lines you look for, tell the breeder your objectives and also be very very careful of temperament. There are temperament issues such as weak nerve in the breed that can make life miserable for you - dogs that appear protective but are scared out of their gourd. A good GSD should neither feel threatened by or particularly interested in you. Now females can be a bit protective of their pups and there is some territorial guarding in dogs around a home, too that is normal. There are issues with some diseases that came up due to inbreeding practices.

Do you want the dog to PROTECT you or just be a good deterrent? Sometimes you hear of heroic efforts by dogs to protect their owners and, certainly, police dogs are trained to fight and have those drives but being protected is not a given without the right dog and the right training ---- and if it is a bear or a pack of coyotes or a bad guy with a gun, well.....


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i have a WGSL. he's roached. when he was a pup you could
clearly see he was roached. as he got older it's not as noticeable. 
our dog is our pet/companion and he travels with us a lot (stores, bank,
visiting friends, general out and about, hiking, etc). i noticed where
you said you want your dog to protect you. i don't depend on my
dog for protection i protect my dog. whatever it is i need to be
protected from i want my dog protected from it also. some GSD's are
protective some aren't. if you really want a pp dog have him/her
trained for protection by a profressional. when it comes to work
i think some GSD's might need a job to keep them from being
bored and some not. here's a couple of things my dog does
that may be considered work:

>>> retrieves the mail form the mail man for us and our neighbor.
>>> carries thiings for us.
>>> can send him to our neighbors with something.
>>> "find it". we hide things and send him to find them.
people can hide from and we can send him to find them
also (indoors, in the woods, etc.).
>>> gets his leash when we're going out. 

this is just a few things my dog does that may be considered work.
keep in mind he's not doing these things constantly or daily.work 
can be fun things. it's my dogs job to jump on the bed and sofa with 
us.  i think a wl or a sl can be a great pet/companion.
good luck with the new pup.



MattA519 said:


> Also in my opinion i think that a WL dog should only go too a home where it has a job.. for example police. If your going too have a working dog i think its stupid to keep it as a house dog when its meant too have a job and be working, it is not fair too the dog.. this is why i am leaning more towards the SL GSD.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

> Also in my opinion i think that a WL dog should only go too a home where it has a job..


Even in high-drive working line litters, there will be puppies who think that lying by your side and getting snuggled is the better option. And there will be puppies in that litter who are over disassembling large pieces of furniture to get at the ball they think is under it. A good breeder should be able to help pick the right pup to match the needs of the home.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

BlackthornGSD said:


> Even in high-drive working line litters, there will be puppies who think that lying by your side and getting snuggled is the better option. And there will be puppies in that litter who are over disassembling large pieces of furniture to get at the ball they think is under it. A good breeder should be able to help pick the right pup to match the needs of the home.


Not to mention that a "job" can include bringing in the paper, walking the kids to school, doing hobby agility or obedience, etc etc etc. It's not only Schutzhund and police work. My WL boy does quite well and he's never seen a bite sleeve.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

BlackthornGSD said:


> ... And there will be puppies in that litter who are over disassembling large pieces of furniture to get at the ball they think is under it.


LOL!!! That was my Anik. Unfortunately he almost blew the house up, as there was a gas line behind the sofa he disassembled. Funny now, but near disaster.
His full brother has been lounging around the house with me all week with no problem (as I have been sick). No training or walks, and still a good boy.

"Drive" is not so much the issue, as the dog's ability to control that drive.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

MattA519 said:


> Also in my opinion i think that a WL dog should only go too a home where it has a job.. for example police. If your going too have a working dog i think its stupid to keep it as a house dog when its meant too have a job and be working, it is not fair too the dog.. this is why i am leaning more towards the SL GSD.


Shhhhhh don't say that too loud, Kaos will hear you and think she shouldn't live here with me

Kaos von Wolfstraum - German Shepherd Dog

:wub: this funny, tenacious, keep me on my toes pup!!


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

gagsd said:


> "Drive" is not so much the issue, as the dog's ability to control that drive.


Though not her favorite thing by any means, my work from home days Kaos is settling quite nicely (one of these days I do need to get a picture of what my desk looks like on those days with the pile of toys for her to choose from)


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

I have Am/Can showlines and love them, no one finds them nervy/spooky, etc.. They do go everywhere, and are my constant companions, no extreme sloping back or any look that is not admired by many.. The female is a Ch, and my male is pointed..both are super..and i've just added a new pup, check out critique section on here, I did post a pic...ANY line can have what you want if you do your research..Meet the dogs, DO NOT believe everything you hear or read, dO NOT look at horror stories, but get out and meet and see and then step back, cause the truth is we all have the very best dogs....and decide what will fit you best...but take time, more time than if you were buying a new car, remember the car you'll have for 6 years maybe, the dog double that and it will live with you!!!


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

Apologies, I now know that apparently, the severe sloped back on German Show lines doesn't have anything to do with hip dysplasia. But it can't be comfortable for the dog. 
*"The excessive breeding of the sloping back trait tends to cause more risk of bone disorders such as hip dysplasia, elbow dysplasia, and panosteitis." *Found this on the website below:
Information on the German Shepherd Dog Breed American Dog Blog

This is a photo of a German Show line that, IN MY OPINION, has good structure: Pedigree German Shepherds | German Shepherd Puppies | Roche's German Shepherds









This, to me, is a poor structured German Show line dog:
https://http://www.vonwardkennels.com/philosophy.html


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

If you are interested in showlines I like this breeder www.alpenhof.com
She is in Ontario somewhere


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

HarleyTheGSD said:


> This, to me, is a poor structured German Show line dog:
> https://http://www.vonwardkennels.com/philosophy.html


I wouldn't judge the second dog based on a single picture. That's a bad stack (dog is over stretched) and the handler is digging his knee into the dog's back. I have no clue why some people like that "broken topline" look but they do. The way the handler has manipulated this dog, we can't say what the dog really looks like. It may actually have a broken topline, or it may be a really nice, moderate type dog that is setup poorly (to my taste) for this particular photo.

This is what my show line dog looks like (except the photo is a few years old, he's now a mature adult)









A few years back, the owner of his sire (a breeder and judge) came to the US and I let him see my dog. He stacked my dog for himself and also did that broken topline thing. That is not how I stack my dog or how he looks when he stands alert naturally.


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## mharrisonjr26 (Feb 10, 2011)

I just want to know why alot of people on here say theres no way an ASL can do any protection. My male is a mix of alot of lines ASL,GSL,and Czech line and he will work. He is not nervy or timid and he even has a descent defense( not purposely tested) I will not say im an expert. I work with some very good helpers (I wont name drop) and they always tell me its crazy that my dog does as well as he does. Im not saying he could be a sport dog but i trust him if someone decides to try.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

mharrisonjr26 said:


> I just want to know why alot of people on here say theres no way an ASL can do any protection. My male is a mix of alot of lines ASL,GSL,and Czech line and he will work. He is not nervy or timid and he even has a descent defense( not purposely tested) I will not say im an expert. I work with some very good helpers (I wont name drop) and they always tell me its crazy that my dog does as well as he does. Im not saying he could be a sport dog but i trust him if someone decides to try.


It's a matter of percentages I'd say. The workability (or lack thereof) has not been a contributing factor behind the ASLs. As a matter of fact, AKC shunned it for many years and many ASL breeders bred AWAY from the working titled stock. So for the most part, it is the exception, rather than the rule to find an ASL dog that comes out of the box with the same drives as those whose lines have put that aspect closer to the top of the list. I have been involved in Schutzhund and clubs for close to 20 years. We have 2-3 ASL (not sure of how much American vs not, but there are some very well known ASL folks in the area) come out every year. I'd say in the last 15 or so years we've had maybe 3 that really got psyched about the whole thing and came out for a while. Most give up after they figure out how much work it is. We have one ASL male in our club right now though who is doing pretty nice work. The handler is planning on entering for the BH this spring. 
If an ASL dog comes out to our club and seems inspired to do the work and the handler is on board, then we're all for it.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

My first Sch3 dog was American show lines. He was very sound in mind and had a good amount of drive. He didn't have the muscling in his head to give him a really hard grip, but he had a long muzzle and could hold on pretty well, though he'd slip sometimes on the drives. His long body (he was a big, leggy dog--29" and 95 pounds) got in the way sometimes and he wasn't particularly speedy--just not built that way.

But, overall, he was pretty much a joy to train--good nerves, strong but not high fight and prey drives, decent defense, good obedience but not particularly handler sensitive in protection. Pretty good tracking (90-96 scores) and a fun dog in obedience. 

Still, if I were getting a dog specifically to do schutzhund with, I wouldn't pick an ASL--it's just not the "best tool for the job."


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## mharrisonjr26 (Feb 10, 2011)

bocron said:


> It's a matter of percentages I'd say. The workability (or lack thereof) has not been a contributing factor behind the ASLs. As a matter of fact, AKC shunned it for many years and many ASL breeders bred AWAY from the working titled stock. So for the most part, it is the exception, rather than the rule to find an ASL dog that comes out of the box with the same drives as those whose lines have put that aspect closer to the top of the list. I have been involved in Schutzhund and clubs for close to 20 years. We have 2-3 ASL (not sure of how much American vs not, but there are some very well known ASL folks in the area) come out every year. I'd say in the last 15 or so years we've had maybe 3 that really got psyched about the whole thing and came out for a while. Most give up after they figure out how much work it is. We have one ASL male in our club right now though who is doing pretty nice work. The handler is planning on entering for the BH this spring.
> If an ASL dog comes out to our club and seems inspired to do the work and the handler is on board, then we're all for it.


While researching his pedigree my male is only has 37 % working bloodline 20.8% wgsl and 42.2% ASl so i dont know what the significance is but all im saying is that all lines probably have there exceptions just wondering why the american lines are almost automatically considered incappable or soft.


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## mharrisonjr26 (Feb 10, 2011)

BlackthornGSD said:


> My first Sch3 dog was American show lines. He was very sound in mind and had a good amount of drive. He didn't have the muscling in his head to give him a really hard grip, but he had a long muzzle and could hold on pretty well, though he'd slip sometimes on the drives. His long body (he was a big, leggy dog--29" and 95 pounds) got in the way sometimes and he wasn't particularly speedy--just not built that way.
> 
> But, overall, he was pretty much a joy to train--good nerves, strong but not high fight and prey drives, decent defense, good obedience but not particularly handler sensitive in protection. Pretty good tracking (90-96 scores) and a fun dog in obedience.
> 
> Still, if I were getting a dog specifically to do schutzhund with, I wouldn't pick an ASL--it's just not the "best tool for the job."


Def understand if i where choosing for sport i know the ddr czech dogs are the best to go with and so forth My point is that some people dont consider them the same breed as the Asl. when i think and im not an expert but have done my work in the breed i just dont see why we dont use the best of all lines and combine them to preserve all the great things about all the gsd.( I know your answer to that question to all you experts ready to pounce)


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

mharrisonjr26 said:


> Def understand if i where choosing for sport i know the ddr czech dogs are the best to go with and so forth My point is that some people dont consider them the same breed as the Asl. when i think and im not an expert but have done my work in the breed i just dont see why we dont use the best of all lines and combine them to preserve all the great things about all the gsd.( I know your answer to that question to all you experts ready to pounce)


I just want to correct what I consider a misconception.... If you were getting a dog for schutzhund competition and sport, I would not recommend a Czech or 100% DDR dog. I'd recommend a dog going back to German/Belgian bloodlines. 

Just so the mud gets a bit more murky ....


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## mharrisonjr26 (Feb 10, 2011)

BlackthornGSD said:


> I just want to correct what I consider a misconception.... If you were getting a dog for schutzhund competition and sport, I would not recommend a Czech or 100% DDR dog. I'd recommend a dog going back to German/Belgian bloodlines.
> 
> Just so the mud gets a bit more murky ....


Man i used to think that but every helper ive come across is ddr crazy not that i dont love those dogs......


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

mharrisonjr26 said:


> Man i used to think that but every helper ive come across is ddr crazy not that i dont love those dogs......


Weird. 

I love my DDR girls... but I like more ball drive for ease of training. May depend on the DDR bloodlines; and for the Czech dogs, a lot of the sportier dogs are bred with some of the top German/Belgian stud dogs. 

I do think that when the DDR lines are combined with a high prey dog (German/Belgian lines), you get some really nice working prospects.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

mharrisonjr26 said:


> While researching his pedigree my male is only has 37 % working bloodline 20.8% wgsl and 42.2% ASl so i dont know what the significance is but all im saying is that all lines probably have there exceptions just wondering why the american lines are almost automatically considered incappable or soft.


Sorry if I was unclear. I didn't mean percentages within an individual dog's pedigree. 
Also, around here the ASL lines are generally all ASL dogs for many generations back. (the winning Westminster handler has had his breeding program here in north GA for MANY years) 
Like I said, the ASL lines were bred AWAY from the SchH lines for quite a few years so it stands to reason that overall those lines will have a lesser chance of producing a dog out of the box who excels at the work. Back in the late 70's and 80's (when I was showing AKC obedience) if a person even mentioned Schutzhund or bitework at an AKC event it was heresy, you would be looked at like you were the equivalent of a dog fighter or a drug dealer, seriously, it was not good. Breeders and exhibitors were doing everything they could to distance themselves from that activity. Nowadays it is not unheard of for the big ASL breeders to bring in a WGSL 
SchH titled dog to diversify their breeding stock, but 30 years ago you would have been blackballed!
I remember once my husband was asked to do a demo at a big GSD club gathering on obedience training or some such thing. When we got there, the lady who was organizing the event met us in the parking lot all in a tither. She begged us to please not mention that we engaged in Schutzhund with the dog we had brought with us (a SchH 3 girl). We were so taken aback.


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## mharrisonjr26 (Feb 10, 2011)

where can you find the belgian lines gsd i always look and can never find.


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

So the dog is "scrunched" up? And the handler is pushing down on his rear end? That has to be uncomfortable for the dog. I do like a mild slope on a German Shepherd, but something that looks more natural. But nothing extreme, to where you can see their spine sticking out. I do not own a German Show line (though I'd like to someday) I have an American German Shepherd (not show line), but I have spent most of my free time in the past 2 years doing research on all the different lines (Working, German Show, American Show). I have seen one video in particular, that shows a beautiful German Shepherd, but his back was roached and his hocks were extremely weak (almost touching the ground). This is unnatural.


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## boeselager (Feb 26, 2008)

I do think it depends on the DDR lines if you wanted to do a sport such as schutzhund, etc. At least that is what I've personally seen. I had a full DDR that was Very capable of doing schutzhund and did not mature slow mentally at all. Then I've had some that do take awhile to mature mentally but if you have the patience, you will love the outcome. We breed the combination of the DDR with the west working and very much like the outcome of the mixed lines. We will also soon be breeding full DDR's as well. Good luck with your search, etc..


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Lots of people have dogs with combined lines....my female imported from Belgium is out of a WGWL female and a Belgian male....my DDR girl bred to a WGWL male for Csabre -and then Csabre bred to a Czech dog - LOL who is half Belgian and half Czech -actually each of his parents is half and half - making him 50% each...and the resultant litter (see Barb E's Kaos) is 25% each WGWL/DDR/Czech/Belgian....My I's were half Belgian, 25% each DDR and WGWL- and the J's are 75% WGWL and 25% Belgian...

My first dog to title was DDR - great tracker and super in protection - but ordinary in ob....DDR dogs with low ball drive typically- and harder to train...but bred with compensatory balance, you can really get nice dogs.

Just have to know the kennel names and registration designations to know where/what the combos are

Lee


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## kam214 (Mar 3, 2012)

HarleyTheGSD said:


> -German Show lines are very beatiful with their rich black and red coats


My GSD is red/black and she is from working lines...as is my friend's Police K9. His dog is also (obviously) working lines and he is black/red as well...


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## kam214 (Mar 3, 2012)

BlackthornGSD said:


> Even in high-drive working line litters, there will be puppies who think that lying by your side and getting snuggled is the better option. And there will be puppies in that litter who are over disassembling large pieces of furniture to get at the ball they think is under it. A good breeder should be able to help pick the right pup to match the needs of the home.


ITA...Sasha is from WL and is much, much more a snuggler/lay at your feet dog than a supremely active dog that is always go go go.

She DOES however, love to put her toys under furniture so she can at least feel like she is doing something


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

kam214 said:


> My GSD is red/black and she is from working lines...as is my friend's Police K9. His dog is also (obviously) working lines and he is black/red as well...


I did not mean that red and black were the only colors German Show line come in. Not at all (though I do realize I have failed to mention that), or that Working lines only come in sables and solid black and bi-color. I have seen red and black/black and tan Working lines and solid black/sable/bi-colored Show lines. What I meant was that German Show lines MAINLY come in red and black, and Working lines MAINLY come in solid black, sable, or bi-colored, because Working lines are bred for their temperament and work ability and Show lines are mainly bred for their looks, though they do need to be able to have a good working title.


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