# Second time biting a child....



## My2shepherds (Jun 10, 2014)

I want to start this by saying I have absolutely no compassion for a biting dog (not trying to offend anyone) I would not tolerate such actions from either of my girls and most certainly would make some ver y tough decisions were it to happen a second time but that is just how I personally am.... Which is probably why I have began a HUGE family squabble with the situation I am about to ask your opinions on... 

My brother has a female gsd that he somewhat rescued as a pup, her litter and mom were left behind when their people decided they were moving and he took one of the pups when they were old enough to leave mom and she is a little over 3 years old now. The problems started occuring when she was about 1 1/2 yrs old with growling and lunging toward anyone outside the immediate family when they would be outside the house, once they entered she would be fine. My brother, after a close call of her trying to break through the front door, took her to a trainer and worked on the issues she was having and after a few months seemed to stop the behavior. Then a few months ago she apparently bit a daycare kid (my SIL does this in home) on the arm I am not sure of the circumstances around this just found out that it occured recently. Their reaction to this was to separate her when the kids are there by keeping her in the basment which is finished and part of the living space for the family. Now I was just told this weekend that she bit another little boy (8 yrs) when my niece went to feed her and did not realize that the boy had followed. Apparently he walked up behind the dog and put his hand on her back and she immediately turned and bit his face hard enough that a trip to the ER was required to check for deeper injury. Thank God he is okay and will physically heal in a relatively short period of time. I was asked what he should do because of my having gsd also by my mom. Unfortunately I usually lose my filter and say what I really feel instead of the flowers and sunshine most people want to hear. I believe she is a time bomb and if they do not consult a behaviorist for this then they should put her down. I fear for the kids that are there that range from infant to usually school age (sometimes older when school's out) I told them obviously separating her is not safe enough and it is only a matter of time before it happens again...

What are your thoughts? I know I am harsh but she is a dog and she is hurting kids...what would you all suggest? Should she be given another chance?


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Euthanize. 

Kids are not a threat. 

A face wound requiring and ER visit is serious.

No more chances. Done. And every kid in that daycare should be pulled out until they make the responsible decision.


----------



## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

The dog needs to be out if the house when daycare is there. Period. She is not safe and your SIL is grossly negligent for allowing her to ever, even on accident have contact with other people children. 

If I was those kids parent, I would have a lawyer involved already. Sorry. I know we are a sue happy society. But this is upsetting. She is being entrusted with others peoples kids and obviously in unable to manage them(no idea where one of the kids was)


----------



## My2shepherds (Jun 10, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> Euthanize.
> 
> Kids are not a threat.
> 
> ...


 
Yeah I said that about the kids being pulled out and it did not go over too well they thought I was heartless for suggesting they put her down. I told them I would not hesitate if it were one of my girls to which I got "maybe you just don't love your dogs like we do!" at that point I knew I was getting nowhere so I just said "apparently not." and hung up.


----------



## My2shepherds (Jun 10, 2014)

gsdsar said:


> The dog needs to be out if the house when daycare is there. Period. She is not safe and your SIL is grossly negligent for allowing her to ever, even on accident have contact with other people children.
> 
> If I was those kids parent, I would have a lawyer involved already. Sorry. I know we are a sue happy society. But this is upsetting. She is being entrusted with others peoples kids and obviously in unable to manage them(no idea where one of the kids was)


I completely agree with you but the boy in question was a family friend that was visiting with his parents not a daycare kid.. not that it changes the severity of the situation but just to clarify.


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

They might feel a little differently when that take em for all theyre worth suit comes in


----------



## CaliGSD3 (Apr 23, 2015)

They should absolutely NOT have this dog in the home where they are taking in children for daycare!!! I mean, maybe if they were going to work with a behaviorist and get an extremely secure crate and keep the dog crated in the basement when children were around. As well as keeping the basement so that no children are EVER able to wander in there. But still...

This is extremely negligent to have this happen not just once, but twice in a situation where they are entrusted with other people's children. I'm really surprised the law hasn't been involved at this point. In my opinion, as sad and unfortunate as it would be, they should have this dog euthanized if they want to continue to run a daycare in their home. (I know this kid wasn't in daycare, but just the fact that this dog is in the home having attacked two children)

It's really enough of a concern to have a friendly well behaved large dog around young children, especially toddlers, children can be somewhat unpredictable around dogs and even the most well behaved dog can react without thinking. So even a very kid proofed dog should be carefully managed when you are entrusted with other people children. But a dog with a bite history should not even be on the same property in my opinion.

Also, the next time this happens.... If she bites someone who is not a close friend, this would NOT look good in court.


----------



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

She is now of full knowledge that she owns a dangerous dog, yet she continues to have children in her home. Not only will she be sued for everything she owns, but she is also risking jail time.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

My2shepherds said:


> I completely agree with you but the boy in question was a family friend that was visiting with his parents not a daycare kid.. not that it changes the severity of the situation but just to clarify.


It sounds like she's not taking this anywhere nearly seriously enough. Locking the dog away in the basement during daycare hours _might_ solve that problem, but they would still need much stricter management at all other times. They shouldn't have allowed your niece to go into the room to feed the dog with a child in the house, period. 

This is a bad situation that's an even worse situation waiting to happen. She is totally asking for a lawsuit.


----------



## My2shepherds (Jun 10, 2014)

I am glad that I am not the only one that feels so strongly about the situation they had me beginning to question if I was being too reactive. I do love my girls but would not have to think twice about the decision that needs to be made if it were them. I do not know what else I can do to try to convince them to do what needs to be done. Unfortunately we have not always been super close siblings anyway and the SIL and I are not "kindred spirits" to put it kindly. I would start a war if I were to inform the local authorities about the situation but I cannot stand the thought of waiting for another kid to be attacked. Ultimately my hands are tied unless I drive 16 hours to deal with it myself.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

My2shepherds said:


> I am glad that I am not the only one that feels so strongly about the situation they had me beginning to question if I was being too reactive. I do love my girls but would not have to think twice about the decision that needs to be made if it were them. I do not know what else I can do to try to convince them to do what needs to be done. Unfortunately we have not always been super close siblings anyway and the SIL and I are not "kindred spirits" to put it kindly. I would start a war if I were to inform the local authorities about the situation but I cannot stand the thought of waiting for another kid to be attacked. Ultimately my hands are tied unless I drive 16 hours to deal with it myself.


 Kids are my line in the sand, sorry. A dog that attacks a child needs to go. Period. Dogs that bite need lifelong management, responsible, diligent management. Dogs that bite kids are another story. I don't care why, and I'm not talking about a corrective nip. Bite a child, attack a child and you are done. 

That said, this is not your dog. You can either report it or forget it, either way not your burden to carry.


----------



## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

If a dog with that bite history landed in any public shelter I know, it would be PTS. No reputable rescue would touch it either. Rehoming this dog (with full disclosure of that history!!!) is not going to be a simple matter--there's not much of a market of "good homes" seeking dangerous dogs.

In many locales, the ER must automatically notify Animal Control of the bite, and enforcement proceedings may commence to declare the dog dangerous. She may have legal proceedings headed her way even if the kid's parents don't sue. 

I'm not even going to go into the insurance mess she may be in with a second bite, if the first one wasn't disclosed. This has the potential to be a monumental financial fiasco. Ugh.


----------



## My2shepherds (Jun 10, 2014)

Magwart said:


> If a dog with that bite history landed in any public shelter I know, it would be PTS. No reputable rescue would touch it either. Rehoming this dog (with full disclosure of that history!!!) is not going to be a simple matter--there's not much of a market of "good homes" seeking dangerous dogs.
> 
> In many locales, the ER must automatically notify Animal Control of the bite, and enforcement proceedings may commence to declare the dog dangerous. She may have legal proceedings headed her way even if the kid's parents don't sue.
> 
> I'm not even going to go into the insurance mess she may be in with a second bite, if the first one wasn't disclosed. This has the potential to be a monumental financial fiasco. Ugh.


From what I gather there were no reports made about the dog at all and of course my brother went with to pay the medical bills on the spot so I imagine the family of the child is letting bygones be bygones. 

I do not think they should give her up I believe they should deal with the mess they have created in the only way that keeps everyone else safe. I do not mean to sound like I am wishing bad things for them but at the same time I believe that her first bite was her fault the second is theirs and whatever circumstances come from it they deserve.


----------



## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

Magwart said:


> If a dog with that bite history landed in any public shelter I know, it would be PTS. No reputable rescue would touch it either. Rehoming this dog (with full disclosure of that history!!!) is not going to be a simple matter--there's not much of a market of "good homes" seeking dangerous dogs.
> 
> In many locales, the ER must automatically notify Animal Control of the bite, and enforcement proceedings may commence to declare the dog dangerous. She may have legal proceedings headed her way even if the kid's parents don't sue.
> 
> I'm not even going to go into the insurance mess she may be in with a second bite, if the first one wasn't disclosed. This has the potential to be a monumental financial fiasco. Ugh.


I don't know how soon or long ago the second bite happened, but I agree with Magwart. I can't imagine that they would not receive a visit from someone after a child goes to the ER with a bite on the face. I mean, I received a visit from AC after Newlie and the dog next door got into an altercation, so it's hard for me to think something this serious would be ignored. Unfortunately, I don't see many options for this dog.The only way that anyone can be absolutely sure that she will not hurt another child is if she is put to sleep.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think whether it gets reported is on the medical staff. I've been to doctors 2x in the past week because of a dog bite. To the best of my knowledge, nobody has reported this as nobody has contacted me or has her information.


----------



## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> I think whether it gets reported is on the medical staff. I've been to doctors 2x in the past week because of a dog bite. To the best of my knowledge, nobody has reported this as nobody has contacted me or has her information.


Yeah, I guess you are right.


----------



## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

newlie said:


> Yeah, I guess you are right.



I think it depends on how you say it happened. If I get bit at work (vet tech) the bite does not get reported as a "bite" unless the animal is not up to date on Rabies. It's considered a job hazard. In my state at least, the same goes for groomers, dog trainers and pet professionals. Not necessarily pet store workers. I am cool with that. 

When I got bit breaking up a dog fight between dogs in my house, it was not reported. 

But I would be gosh darned if I did would not force the issue if this was my kid. Sorry.


----------



## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

Either stop doing daycare and do not let kids in the home unless the dog is secure, or see if the dog can be adopted by a household that does not have young children.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think the dog should be PTS. 

Family is tricky though. They will get mad whatever you say because they love the dog. And you know that because you love your dogs. But, you seem to be more realistic about what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. 

I think all you can do, if asked, is to say something like, "If (Dog's Name) was my dog, I would put her down." Or, you could say, "If (your dogs' names) did that, I would put her down. Sorry."

My brother has a beagle/dachshund mix. It is eleven. His kid is 19. When his kid was 8 or 9, the dog gave him a serious bite on his face. The parents did not know what their kid did, did he jump on the dog, did he startle it awake? The dog bit their kid again, and the family -- extended family just wonders why the dog is not dead. Perhaps because it is a beagle/dachshund mix. 

A few months ago my sister had a party at her house, and of course Tiger was there because my sister in law, brother and nephew had come. My sister commented to me that the dog will heave a sigh of relief when she puts her kids to bed. They were almost four and 5 at the time. 

I asked why. She said that Gwennie, the younger, would not leave him alone. And I noticed this was true. I went in the other room and asked my sister in law as she lay on the couch doing nothing to protect either the kid or the dog, "didn't he bite Michael twice? She said, "only once." Hmmmm. Seems the mail couldn't be delivered at their home either. Hmmmm. 

Well, Lisa (my sister) went to get me a soda and sliced her head open on her husband's lumber -- great New Year's Eve stuff, trip to the ER, and I finally went home, just in time to see the state boy at 2AM with my turning signal broken. Yay! How I did not get a ticket for that, is still a mystery. But I digress.

The next morning the dog bit Gwenn in the ear. 

The dog is still alive. 

The kid is ok. 

I blame the dog owners and the kid's mother for not preventing that. I did what I could. I couldn't order my SIL and brother out of my sister's home. I couldn't crate their dog. I wasn't there the next morning. EVERYBODY knew the dog bites kids. 

The father of the child BLAMES THE CHILD!!! A kid not even four years old who doesn't own a dog -- he blames the kid for getting bit!!! This is the guy that told me that if my parents' dog, Cujo, bit him, he would kill him and every dog in my kennel. 

Maybe the rules are different for beagle/dachshund mixes. But I know if one of my girls bit the littlest cousin, the cousin that was in the hospital for so long and then not allowed to see anyone for two years for fear of infection, no one would rest until the GSD was put down. 

Families are tricky. 

Good luck with yours. 

Remember, "I would..." goes down better than "You should..."


----------



## My2shepherds (Jun 10, 2014)

Remember guys it's not my dog...I know it's a heated topic and very emotional for us all I feel just as angry about it as you all do. I would NEVER treat this as lightly as they are if it were my child or my dog.I am at a loss that they will not listen to me about it...


----------



## My2shepherds (Jun 10, 2014)

I completely agree Selzer I told mom and them what I would do if she were mine but "I am cold hearted" as my mom said. I told her "Cold hearted/realistic...six to one half dozen to the other either way she is dangerous and obviously they do not have the tools to fix her" Mom asked if I would try to work with her... Lol I told her only till I got her to the vet to be pts. I know that was mean but I was pretty ticked by the time. That is where I stand now in all this... my dogs are well behaved so mom is mad I won't work with her and my brother won't listen to me...


----------



## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

My2shepherds, you are in a tough spot. It's not your dog. It lives far away. It is what it is. 

My sister has a dog like this. A rescue GSD. He is amazing with people he knows well. Amazing. My sister has done an amazing job with him. 

My elderly mother lives with my sister. And she often watches the next door neighbors children, after school, camp or whatever. 

The dog, had bitten, though not seriously, a good family friend twice. No doctors visits needed, but intent was there. My mom poopooed it. Blamed the friend yadda yadda. 

I tried to make her understand the seriousness of the issue. It was NOT ok that the dog bit someone. Not ok. Finally I asked her, "what if one of "neighbors" girls did the same thing "friend" did and the dog bit them. (The friend got bit when he was putting a plate in the sink) 

She was horrified at the thought. She was on board after that. The dog is kenneled when the girls are over, they know to NEVER walk in the door unannounced anymore, private training, an ecollar. The dog is still a mess at times. But my mom knows the consequences. 

Now you situation is different. But I tell this story to highlight that maybe you need to find the "thing" that flips their thinking. Jumping in and saying "kill the dog" is going to be shut out. But maybe think about a way to get your point across without them immediately going on the defensive? 

I am not one to PTS right away. I don't think that should be on the table before they even acknowledge there is an issue. Because, it won't go over well. 

But you know your family? Maybe you can think of the right catalyst that will get them to appreciate the issue they have. And make them want to work on it.


----------



## My2shepherds (Jun 10, 2014)

I am not a big proponent of animals being pts either I just know that this is a tragedy waiting to happen especially since there are babies in the house everyday. I will try to calm down and get off my soapbox to think if there is another way to attack it.. just hard with so much at stake. I also know this dog I was around her when she was little. .. she was a cutie and so sweet it's hard to imagine she has turned this way. It's a shame...


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I absolutely hate the idea that an animal needs to be PTS. But, a dog that has bitten two children in two separate incidents, one in the face that required an ER visit -- that dog isn't right. If your dog is suffering from inoperable cancer you put it to sleep so it won't suffer.

This dog has a problem, and it isn't fixable. Sorry -- that is proper for GSDs. The dog has either such weak nerves that it is seriously suffering. Or the dog is just vicious and that is not a comfortable place to be either. 

The thing is, though, the dog is powerful. It can kill a human child. Most dogs that kill are not little, perfect angels, and suddenly snap like all their owners would like you to think. Usually they have had a series of incidents. 

It is heartbreaking and sad. But I love the breed too. And when a member of the breed is not right and dangerous, it is better for the breed to put the dog down BEFORE the dog permanently maims or kills someone. 

There are way too many dogs out there that are dying just for lack of homes to try to fix a dog that bites children. 

I wish we could wave a magic wand or apply the Koehler method of training, or do NILIF, or call Cesar Millan, but in the end, you have a dog that bit two separate children in two separate incidents and if the dog does this again, someone ought to be in jail, regardless to all the things they might try with the dog.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I know Onyx would possibly bite a child...though with age she has mellowed. That said, we have a baby visit from newborn to now 8 months of age, and I have warned the parents, my son who is friends with them, that Onyx must be crated if they come over and she is toddling. I will not excuse her behavior, though she must be managed or we are setting her up to fail.
IF it ever happens that she does bite, she is getting her one way ticket to the rainbow bridge. I've managed her well, no bite history(other than a herding nip on my 8 yr old nephew who was running and screaming). After that, she showed reactive behavior to toddler age kids. She is fine with 10 and above. MICRO-MANAGEMENT after knowing what her behaviors are.... I DO love her, but there are limits to what/where she can be exposed to.


----------



## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

selzer said:


> I absolutely hate the idea that an animal needs to be PTS. But, a dog that has bitten two children in two separate incidents, one in the face that required an ER visit -- that dog isn't right. If your dog is suffering from inoperable cancer you put it to sleep so it won't suffer.
> 
> This dog has a problem, and it isn't fixable. Sorry -- that is proper for GSDs. The dog has either such weak nerves that it is seriously suffering. Or the dog is just vicious and that is not a comfortable place to be either.
> 
> ...



Perfectly said.


----------



## lauren43 (Jun 14, 2014)

And I was under the impression that to even have a daycare the insurance with a dog in the house is either very expensive or simply not advised. Not sure how they bypassed this from go?


----------



## My2shepherds (Jun 10, 2014)

I don't want to give too much personal info but they have close military ties and most of the children are centered from that. They have always had dogs this is the first gsd.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

My2shepherds said:


> I don't want to give too much personal info but they have close military ties and most of the children are centered from that. They have always had dogs this is the first gsd.


this(employment or dog breed) should not play into it whatsoever, a golden retriever, beagle, whatever with a bite history should be managed. The owner has clearly set the dog up to fail and is being negligent.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

this was on my fb newsfeed just now...thought I'd share the link. Judge rules Bay City pit bull-boxer can live, but needs new owner, training | MLive.com


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

onyx'girl said:


> this was on my fb newsfeed just now...thought I'd share the link. Judge rules Bay City pit bull-boxer can live, but needs new owner, training | MLive.com


Not sure what I think of that. If indeed the officers were on her property -- entered her yard, and her dog bit them, I just can't get too torn up about that. Dogs do not look for badges and say, "oh, you're the good guys." They see someone who is probably tense, wondering what that open door is all about, and going into the yard... I just don't know about that.

And if she asked the other guy to wait until she secured the dog before he entered the yard, and he failed to follow the instruction, shame on him. 

The dog was ordered to be euthanized, and the stay ONLY if she gave the dog up to others. So I guess you are not allowed to have a guard dog in this day and age. 

This is very different from a dog that bites children that are in the home where he lives.

It sounds like the issue with the judge is that he feels the lady gets distracted and allows her dog to run amok, biting people. Probably a lot to this case that wasn't summed up in that article. I hope so.


----------



## My2shepherds (Jun 10, 2014)

I agree Onyx I was only brought into the situation since it was a gsd did not mean it was a breed thing. Negligence is putting it mildly in my p.o.v.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

," took her to a trainer and worked on the issues "

so what does that mean , you drop the dog off and that person does some training , which is good for FEELING you've solved the problem, done something , but has zero effect because the dog goes back home, back to the old ways, lenient, unstructured , pandered to existence.

The owner has to be there . The owner has to put in the sweat equity. The owner needs to understand , command and get respect , which is earned. And that has to be continued every single day the dog is alive .

What we see here is gross mismanagement (again) , and denial. Denial ! Two children bitten . Owner problem as much as a dog temperament problem .

Dog didn't have much of a chance given the early days , and experience and probably breeding. Then compounded by the person who "rescues" feeling guilt or an excess of do-gooderness (not a word) excuses the dog from discipline , compensates and indulges and this is what you get.
First bite should have been the rude awakening , the reality check.

Second bite, inexcusable . The dog has no rights to put kids at risk . The owner is in serious position to be sued.

There should have been a report . 
Wounds go beyond physical .


----------



## My2shepherds (Jun 10, 2014)

Carmspack- I know they were taking her to a trainer for her aggression issues with people outside the house and that they supposedly were involved in the sessions because I was getting told everything I should be doing with my dogs based on what they told my mom the trainer was telling them. I do not know who the trainer was but I tend to believe that the issue was that there was no follow through at home. I cannot say for sure since I do not see them often but I doubt this was simply a case of a dog gone psycho. There may be some breeding issues there but can't look into that since there is no paperwork to trace it and the mom was an unknown when found. I agree they set this up to happen it is their fault but getting them to realize this and fix it is the problem.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

doubly gross mismanagement and denial then when

" her to a trainer for her aggression issues with people outside the house "

the dog has greater issues, known issues with inappropriate (fear?) aggression and yet they allow this dog to have access to children?

they are legally liable .


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

couldn't help dwelling on this . 
these people need a real wake up call before something really bad happens to a kid.


----------



## My2shepherds (Jun 10, 2014)

I cannot let it go either. I have been all over the map trying to think of how to fix this (that is my role in the family) but I cannot take the risk with her. I have two gsd that do not have aggression issues at all and kids here quite a bit. I hate to sound selfish but I do not have the time for her issues and not neglect my girls let alone my feelings about her knowing she has bitten twice. I have tried to figure out a way to make it work but the risk is too high for me.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

You are not selfish for not wanting to take on someone elses liability. Sometimes, you can only remove yourself from the situation. This is not your problem and don't let anyone else try to make it yours.


----------



## pyratemom (Jan 10, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> I know Onyx would possibly bite a child...though with age she has mellowed. That said, we have a baby visit from newborn to now 8 months of age, and I have warned the parents, my son who is friends with them, that Onyx must be crated if they come over and she is toddling. I will not excuse her behavior, though she must be managed or we are setting her up to fail.
> IF it ever happens that she does bite, she is getting her one way ticket to the rainbow bridge. I've managed her well, no bite history(other than a herding nip on my 8 yr old nephew who was running and screaming). After that, she showed reactive behavior to toddler age kids. She is fine with 10 and above. MICRO-MANAGEMENT after knowing what her behaviors are.... I DO love her, but there are limits to what/where she can be exposed to.


I just would like to say it is nice to hear an owner that admits there is a problem and manages it as well as possible. I hate it when the owner does not admit there is a problem and then it makes it worse and more dangerous for everyone. I crate my girl when we have new people over. Some say it is cruel. I don't feel that way. She is my dog and my responsibility. I will decide who she needs to meet and who she doesn't need to meet.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It is not selfishness.

You have two dogs that YOU are responsible for. Their keep, care, and training are as much as you can or want to do. The possibility of a third dog causing injury to them, causing chaos in your pack, or making your own dogs less well-trained is making an adult decision that respects yourself, those that are dependent on you, and your extended family. 

Being made to feel selfish/guilt trips are indicative of dysfunction much of the time. Families are adept at using these to get what they think they need. But, often time it is exactly what they shouldn't have. 

If you take on a dog out of some feeling of responsibility for your brother, it will make you feel resentful. And if you cannot make progress with the dog, and find the liability of owning the dog too much and euthanize the dog, everyone will be even angrier with you.

Much better to let them know you cannot take the dog. Don't let them guilt you into doing it.


----------



## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

My2shepherds said:


> I completely agree Selzer I told mom and them what I would do if she were mine but "I am cold hearted" as my mom said. I told her "Cold hearted/realistic...six to one half dozen to the other either way she is dangerous and obviously they do not have the tools to fix her" Mom asked if I would try to work with her... Lol I told her only till I got her to the vet to be pts. I know that was mean but I was pretty ticked by the time. That is where I stand now in all this... my dogs are well behaved so mom is mad I won't work with her and my brother won't listen to me...


I'm still making my way through, so someone else may have pointed this out: But you know if you agreed to work with the dog and then it bit someone else, you'd be the one blamed. 

Also, if my dog bit a kid, I would blame myself for not being as on top of the dog as I should have been, and I would blame the parent for not being as on top of the kid as they should have been. I know my girl would not bite unless severely provoked (even then, I think it would take a lot to push her to that point), so obviously it would be the fault of the people in charge. There's a reason I am right there on top of her if there's a kid nearby and why I have no qualms about being abrupt or even rude with a child who can't follow directions and handle the dog correctly; sometimes dogs need protecting from kids.


----------



## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

My2shepherds said:


> I cannot let it go either. I have been all over the map trying to think of how to fix this (that is my role in the family) but I cannot take the risk with her. I have two gsd that do not have aggression issues at all and kids here quite a bit. I hate to sound selfish but I do not have the time for her issues and not neglect my girls let alone my feelings about her knowing she has bitten twice. I have tried to figure out a way to make it work but the risk is too high for me.


Nope. Not selfish. You have to think of the dependents in your care. That could mean your pets, or your kids, whoever you've got. You're in charge at your house, which means you do get to decide to take on a measured risk if you believe the greater good is worth it OR you get to decide that the risk is too great and it is too unfair to your incumbents to assume that risk on their behalf.


----------



## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

My2shepherds - you are NOT selfish! Not at all!

Kyleigh doesn't like kids (probably feeds that from me LOL - my patience and tolerance level with children is about 5 seconds - ok, not probably - 99% likely!). Ky's not comfortable with the noise, movements, etc. (Either that or she wants to chase them down and put them in a nice quiet circle!) We do not go near kids play grounds, I do not have her loose in the house when other people come over with their kids (which has only happened twice in 4 years). The ONLY child she is allowed near is my 8.5 year old nephew because he knows the rules (and I have flat out told him, if she bites him it's his fault - not necessarily TRUE LOL, but it keeps him in check - especially when you make a point of showing just how BIG those teeth are!) Like Onyx, I manage this with Kyleigh, and will for the rest of her life. 

I put this out there because I have a friend who also has a GSD who's a big love bug - seriously, this dog rocks. I do however cringe when the neighbour's children come running up to pet him and she lets them. NOTHING has happened - not a low growl, nothing, he wags his tail, he licks their faces, he is seriously enjoying all the attention. 

There will be ONE time however, and that's all it takes, when something happens and everyone will be all OMG - WTF? He was perfect for so long ... And that scares the crap out of me. Because an 80 pounds GSD can kill a child almost instantly. Repeated warnings have not worked, she just responds that he's not like my dog, so there's nothing to worry about. 

My2shepherds ... would you say that I am liable if something happens? (I'm going to go with no LOL) ... so if I'm not liable ... you are not liable ... so DO NOT FEEL GUILTY! There is only so much you can do, seriously. You have own family of kids, dogs, zoo, etc. to look after and you're doing a job ... it stops there!

I feel your pain and your frustration - I have another friend who flat out does ZERO training with her dog and gets frustrated at him when he doesn't listen ... I literally walk away some times ... why? Because in 5 minutes or less I can get that dog to do pretty much anything - with no tantrums. 

Hang up your hat and tell them to solve their own problems.


----------



## MamaofLEO (Aug 8, 2014)

I would think if there is any immediate want to keep the dog, a *muzzle* is a necessary tool in addition to pretty extensive training.

If they are unable to grasp that their dog is dangerous (whether provoked by a child or not, 2 bites, even 1 bite, is unacceptable when a childcare facility, or really, any child is on the premises), the dog needs to be-rehomed or sheltered. That is just a ludicrous notion that it will not happen again and do more, extensive damage to a child in the home.


----------



## My2shepherds (Jun 10, 2014)

Jax, Selzer, WateryTart and Kyleigh:

Thanks to you all for your responses it makes saying no a bit easier to hear third-party opinions that do have so much "family baggage" attached to them. I agree she is not my responsibility and was only torn by the situation because of the kids that are being put in a potentially dangerous situation and a little bit because of the dog that most likely has not had any reprieve from the daycare kids since they got her. I seriously doubt that given the lack of reaction to the dogs behavior that there is much discipline enforced with the kids that are there through the week. I will not take her on my mind is made up on that... I just have to make sure my mom does not end up taking her thinking she can keep her alive that way.


----------



## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Kyleigh said:


> I put this out there because I have a friend who also has a GSD who's a big love bug - seriously, this dog rocks. I do however cringe when the neighbour's children come running up to pet him and she lets them. NOTHING has happened - not a low growl, nothing, he wags his tail, he licks their faces, he is seriously enjoying all the attention.
> 
> There will be ONE time however, and that's all it takes, when something happens and everyone will be all OMG - WTF? He was perfect for so long ... And that scares the crap out of me. Because an 80 pounds GSD can kill a child almost instantly. Repeated warnings have not worked, she just responds that he's not like my dog, so there's nothing to worry about.


This sort of touches on something that I started wondering about with my dog.

My dog loves children, puppies, and little dogs. She is seemingly endlessly patient with them. I don't let crowds of kids run up to her - I make them stop and approach slowly, and I have her sit so everyone is calm when they meet - but she'd tolerate that just fine. When my neighbor's grandkids were poking at her through the chain link fence, she stood there wagging her tail and lapping up all the attention while I took the kids aside and said, "Hey, it's a really good idea to never put your fingers through a fence at a dog - this one won't hurt you, but another dog might not like that."

Not only could your concern come true with a dog like that (they're awesome until suddenly they're not), but the kids could implicitly learn "anything goes" from this dog because he's so tolerant, and then try the same thing on another dog who reacts poorly and experience tragic results. 

The incident with my neighbor's grandkids made me realize that I have to not only watch my dog for her individual triggers, but I may also have to explicitly educate on what's going to be okay with my dog and what good practices are for unfamiliar dogs in general.


----------



## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

I'm going to go out on a limb and make some assumptions (because I don't think the OP knows the answers anyway).

In the aspect of the daycare children. I'm going to bet that the owner never informed the other children's parents of the first bite. Because, if it were me and she had disclosed, my kid would not be in her care, PERIOD. She would have likely lost all her clients.

I'm going to bet that since the second bite did not involve a day care child she still has not disclosed this to her clients. Thus, leaving the the parents unable to make an informed decision as to whether or not to continue to bring their children into her home. Which only an idiot would IMO. 

I'm going to bet she is not a licensed day care provider, either. Licensed day care providers are still required to have home checks to maintain their license. If any licensing board new there was a GSD in the home they most likely would pull her license if she in fact has one. Unfair as it may be, GSDs are on the aggressive breed list and would most likely be an exclusion to licensing for a day care. I guess it would depend on the state regulations.

Those things said: If your mind and heart are screaming you need to do something you otherwise have very little control over, there are things you might be able to do. 

You could make an anonymous call to the day care licensing board in your SIL area and report an unlicensed day care (if she isn't). They would go out and investigate and that in of itself would most likely address a lot of these issues. They would have to make a decision about their "business" on the whole and the dog as well.

If she is licensed, again make an anonymous complaint there may be a dangerous dog on site. This puts someone other than you in the position to tell them the dog has to go to protect the children. Or they keep the dog and stop the day care. 

I'm sure there other things the can be done. Just some thoughts. I feel your frustration in all of this. It's not your responsibility to fix this problem. I can see how you would feel in some way responsible if in the future another child were bit by this dog as seriously maimed or worse killed, because you know it's bite history. I know I would. In reality, you can only do just so much and are not to blame for what you can't do. 

I really don't like stories like these. I have had to PTS a dangerous dog. Hard as it was, It WAS the right decision. I have no regrets. My kids and the children in our neighborhood never had to succumb to a vicious dog attack because I made the RIGHT choice.

I pray your SIL and family see the light and do the right thing.


----------



## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

selzer said:


> I think all you can do, if asked, is to say something like, "If (Dog's Name) was my dog, I would put her down." Or, you could say, "If (your dogs' names) did that, I would put her down. Sorry."


I do agree with this, that the approach really really matters.

I was thinking about how I'd react if a family member tried to tell me that I "needed to" put my dog down. No matter what she had done, the family member would not get the response they wanted from me if they said that. There might be some "go off somewhere and inflict unspeakable acts on yourself" mixed in. 

If left totally to my own devices and not told what I needed to do, I'd probably come to that realization myself, quickly. Once external parties started applying the pressure, I'd very likely dig in my heels. I love my dog, and I love her more than I love many people. I know what the correct choice would be, and that there is only one correct choice with a dog that attacks humans, but it would have to be arrived at privately, and dealt with privately.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I haven't read all the responses, but I used to go to daycare/after school care at someone's house and they had a nasty dog. Their dog was locked in the backyard when we were there. Actually, it was probably locked out their 24/7 (maybe that's why it was so nasty?). Daycare kids never went in the backyard and had no access (only two ways of access and they were blocked/locked), so we had no interactions with the dog. So I guess if they insist on keeping the dog, it would have to be kept somewhere outside locked away from kids or where anyone could access or accidentally wander, not just shut in the basement of the same house with the kids. I think we are already to litigious in the USA and would not immediately be calling for lawsuits and trying to bankrupt this person just for loving their (aggressive) dog, but IF she cannot keep it COMPLETELY SEPARATE from her daycare, then the dog needs to go, either euthanized or rehomed.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I do not have a problem with rehoming dogs in general:

If you are tired of owning a dog,
If you cannot afford the dog, 
If you have too many dogs and this one would do better in a home with just one or two dogs, 
If you just haven't connected with the dog, 
If the dog does not suit your purpose for a dog,
If the dog is eating your prized possessions and you cannot control the dog, 

For Heaven's sake, rehome the dog. The dog will get over it much quicker than we like to think. The sooner he is out of your home (where he is not wanted), the sooner he can be in a home where he is wanted. 

That being said, in my opinon, rehoming a dog that has bitten children is not an option. Euthanize the dog. Sorry, but the dog is the owner who let the dog get to that point's problem. There is no way to ensure that the person that takes on the dog is going to keep the dog. You may fully disclose the situation, they may not believe you, they may think they are some Cesar Millan-type God's gift to dogs and they can fix the dog. If that dog bites another child, or maims or kills a child, you are still accountable for that. Sorry. Keep the dog forever, if you must, but rehoming a dog that bites children -- no. Put the dog down. 

There are plenty of dogs out there dying for want of space in shelters and homes. There is no reason to find another home for a dog that has bitten children. Yes you can find a home that has no kids, but few people live their lives totally and completely apart from any contact with kids. And after a year or more with no incidents, they may relax their vigilance, and then this wacko dog kills one this time. How could anyone live with that?

If the dog has bitten children under your watch, then you are IT. The buck stops here. If you can't keep the dog, put it down. Then you can be certain it will never bite a child again. Done. 

There are not that many miracle workers out there willing to take on dogs that bite kids. Those that do are mostly playing with a partial deck of cards -- and how do you know that. The experts are buying puppies and temperament testing them and finding dogs that have excellent temperaments for whatever they want to do with them. Most of them are not looking for a project. 

No, just no. It is irresponsible to suggest to people to rehome a dog that sent a child to the ER. 

Two choices: 

Keep the dog and protect everyone from the dog, for the rest of the dog's life. 

Euthanize the dog. 

There are no magical cures for the dog. You can help it to be less reactive, you can exercise and train the dog so that it is less likely to get into trouble. You can build a bond with the dog. In the end you still have a dog that bit two children and will NEVER, EVER, be safe around children. Never. It doesn't mean an accident will happen if the dog is ever exposed to a child, but it means it may happen any time the dog is exposed to a child. 

Please do not encourage your family members to rehome this dog. They need to take responsibility for who the dog is. It may not be their fault. It may be that they could have done things better. Doesn't matter really. They have a critter with a major problem and the solution is not to find someone who is willing to take on that problem.


----------

