# Martingale v. Choke collar



## Shaolin

So, I have another question. 

Right now, I have a standard chain choke collar and a flat collar on my dog. He has great manners when walking, but I like the sense of control I have when I walk him with the choke collar, especially since I think I'm the only person in my neighborhood who abides by the leash law. I went to "collar classes" after I got my second dog, an unruly Chow/Husky mix who needed a prong collar at first, but graduated to a regular choke collar after he learned his manners, but that was about ten years ago and we didn't touch on Martingales at all. 

As a puppy, Finn took a while (almost six months!) to come around to walking nicely, which is why I went from trying a collar and harness to a choke collar. I have walked him on just his flat collar with very little issue, but as I said, I like the extra security, especially now that my back is in the shape it is. I don't know anyone in my pet social circle who have used Martingales and one of my dearest friends own two Greyhounds. 

The reason for the switch is because, first of all, CGC classes don't allow you to use CCs and neither does the SAR group I'm with, but he works off leash anyways, so it's not that big of a deal there. Secondly, but more importantly, he's great on walks. Even if he needs a correction for something, it's so light and minor that the CC just doesn't seem necessary anymore, but I still want the control that I've heard Martingales provide.

Any and all advice/opinions are greatly appreciated!


----------



## Twyla

First, I'll admit, I do not like choke collars and will not use them.

I have a FA DA dog and up to a couple months ago, used just the martingale. Still use the martingale on days and outings I know I will not need to use the prong and the control it provides.


----------



## codmaster

Prong collar is a LOT better than just a regular slip collar.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

OP isn't asking about prongs. 

A martingale is a great collar - it's no slip, it has a very light correction, which is what you want, and limited ability to "choke" the dog. The dog needs to be trained I think, because it's not a training type collar as far as corrections go - but I have used them without using other collars first. 

You can use the martingale's other ring for things like the CGC, etc. 

They make them with side buckles now (I like the metal ones), with chains or fabric for the martingale part and they come in some cute patterns too. 

All but 2 of my dogs use martingales (the other 2 have flats because if they pulled out they wouldn't leave me). The rescue I volunteer with has all dogs on martingales for transports, etc. I really like them. 

Lola & Foxy
www.lupinepet.com
Martingale Collars | Designer Dog Collars |Greyhound Collars | Sighthound Collars
Martingale Dog Collars | Pink Puppy Designs

Are all places I have gotten martingale collars from. All have lasted well.


----------



## codmaster

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> *OP isn't asking about prongs. *
> 
> A martingale is a great collar - it's no slip, it has a very light correction, which is what you want, and limited ability to "choke" the dog. The dog needs to be trained I think, because it's not a training type collar as far as corrections go - but I have used them without using other collars first.
> 
> You can use the martingale's other ring for things like the CGC, etc.
> 
> They make them with side buckles now (I like the metal ones), with chains or fabric for the martingale part and they come in some cute patterns too.
> 
> .............


 Jean,
OTOH,
Just in case that you were not aware of it - many prong collars also utilize two rings (Martingale?) with "no ability to choke the dog". and they also function as a GREAT training collarin case the OP's dog might need a little of that.

And the level of correction is of course variable and dependent on what is needed and desired by the handler from very firm when needed and just very light to whatever is needed at the moment. With a BIG dog who is lunging and pulling like heck then the correction can be very firm for a second while with a soft dog there may be no need to use a physical correction at all - so then the handler doesn't correct (but they have the capability when it is needed). 

The handler (even a smaller person) is in charge not the big physical dog as sometimes we see.

Prong collars can be a very valuable tool in the compentent trainers toolbox!

Worth considering!


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I know, I've used prong collars before. But I wanted to answer the question asked about martingales before it got into "just put a prong on" thread.


----------



## Freestep

The only reason to use a choke chain, in my opinion, is to keep a dog from slipping his head out of the collar, and a martingale will do the same thing. I like Premier's nylon martingales with the plastic buckle on the side, but they are available in a dazzling array of materials and designs now, including fur-saver chain.


----------



## blackshep

I honestly don't find a martingale collar works at all with my pup. I'm trying to stay away from choke chains, she's too young for a prong and her not-so-Gentle Leader rubbed her face.

If your dog is already pretty good on walks and you find he has good leash respect and responds well to a light correction, then a martingale is probably perfect. They aren't expensive, worth giving it a try.


----------



## msvette2u

I'd never recommend a choke chain either, martingales do work well for puppies and for dogs who may slip their collar.

Martingales work on the same principle as a prong, that is, the dog pulls and is corrected for it (collar tightens). When loose leash walking occurs the collar loosens.


----------



## Whiteshepherds

I like Martingales but some of them tighten and then get stuck instead of loosening up like they're supposed to. I've had the best luck with the ones that have smaller chain links, the seem to slide back and forth easier.


----------



## msvette2u

Some have the collar and the part that tightens in nylon, have you ever tried those? I think they may slide easier than the ones with chain.


----------



## Shaolin

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> OP isn't asking about prongs.
> 
> A martingale is a great collar - it's no slip, it has a very light correction, which is what you want, and limited ability to "choke" the dog. The dog needs to be trained I think, because it's not a training type collar as far as corrections go - but I have used them without using other collars first.
> 
> You can use the martingale's other ring for things like the CGC, etc.
> 
> They make them with side buckles now (I like the metal ones), with chains or fabric for the martingale part and they come in some cute patterns too.
> 
> All but 2 of my dogs use martingales (the other 2 have flats because if they pulled out they wouldn't leave me). The rescue I volunteer with has all dogs on martingales for transports, etc. I really like them.
> 
> Lola & Foxy
> www.lupinepet.com
> Martingale Collars | Designer Dog Collars |Greyhound Collars | Sighthound Collars
> Martingale Dog Collars | Pink Puppy Designs
> 
> Are all places I have gotten martingale collars from. All have lasted well.


Thank you very much! I'm sure that we'll have a few days of him not being sure what's going on, but he adapts quickly, so we shouldn't have too many issues. I was going to ask about the buckle collars. I saw the ones that have just the little metal slide piece, but I also saw the buckles. I have an adverse fear of them, but that's just because I haven't had too many good experiences with them, but I'd be willing to try them again. 

I'm glad to hear that people have had good experiences with these collars. I like choke collars and prongs for what they are; good training tools. My goal has always been to have the dog wearing the device that requires the least amount of correction to make them stop the bad action, which is why I want to switch to a Martingale. I don't think Finn needs the choke any more, but I do need to have more correction than what is found in a quick tug on a flat collar.

Good point on the small links, Whiteshepherds. Something I never would've thought about.


----------



## Freestep

Shaolin said:


> I don't think Finn needs the choke any more, but I do need to have more correction than what is found in a quick tug on a flat collar.


I don't know that a martingale would give you much correcting power, any more than a flat collar would. I have seen some martingales that have little "nubs" on the inside, so that might be worth looking into if you don't want to use a prong collar. It might be a good intermediate type.


----------



## Freestep

Of course, now I can't find the collar with the little nubs on the inside. But I did come across this.... very nice design IMO.










Pawmark - Trainer Proven Products


----------



## Shaolin

Those are beautiful collars. I might get one of those for when I like to put a "dress up" collar on him; his regular flat collar is faded and dirty, so I have one in exactly the same color for when he are going out to pet walks or things along those lines where I want to class him up a bit. Silly, I know, but I refuse to put him dog clothes, but I want him to have something outside of his training things when we go to events.

Good thought on the nubbed Martingale. I didn't know they had those. I just want to stay as far away from prong with him. He's such a good boy.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Is this it? To me, this is a plastic prong: StarMark Collar training collar for dogs

The chain martingales make a correction noise, that zip sound. But yeah, the martingale doesn't do much correction wise, but I am not sure what is needed to correct.


----------



## selzer

I love me some martingale collars. They really aren't a correction collar, but will protect the dog from slipping the flat collar which can be fatal.

Yes they work on the same principal as the prong in that they have the same tightening mechanism, but without the prongs, there really isn't a correction. The chain will give the sound that they are going to feel it get tighter in a second, but it is NOT supposed to be tight enough to choke the dog. In fact, it is really set up so that fully open it will slip over the dogs head, and fully closed it cannot. That is really the only point to the martingale. 

I do prefer the adjustable nylon martingales with a buckle(snap) so that you do not have to put it over the dogs head. Just easier. My show martingale is a fixed size and has no snap/quick release. 

As for choke chains, if you know how to use them, they are no worse than any other training devise. They are cheap and effective. I would not recommend them to a new person because it is very easy to misuse them. But in my opinion it is just as easy to misuse a prong collar. I think dogs respond to the prong quicker (gives a stronger correction) so that it is unnecessary to hang the dog or let it choke itself through a walk. But any training devise can be abused.


----------



## Freestep

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Is this it? To me, this is a plastic prong: StarMark Collar training collar for dogs


No, that's not what I was thinking of. The one I saw was a nylon martingale with short rounded metal or plastic nubs on the inside, just enough to give a little "bite" to the collar. Come to think of it, I haven't seen it for a while, so maybe they stopped making them.



Shaolin said:


> I just want to stay as far away from prong with him. He's such a good boy.


Prong collars are not just for "bad" dogs! There is a perception that a prong is some kind of medieval torture device that must be horribly painful, but it looks much worse than it is. If you've never used one before, it seems scary, but it is honestly less harsh than a choke chain IMO. 

As with any training tool, the prong can be used properly or it can be abused. But fitted properly and used correctly on a loose lead, it's an excellent tool, especially for those who are not strong enough to control a big dog. It's like power steering. If the dog pulls or lunges forward, he will correct himself, and so learns to use self-control. To apply a correction you simply pull gently, rather than use a quick pop, so it is much easier. Essentially, it's just a martingale with "teeth". Or like a martingale with fingers.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

The OP did use a prong before - this is what I was referring to in my one post - that people can and do work with and train dogs to do what they want without a prong, or by using it for a while, and then discarding it. But that people seem to want to others to use them, even when they have stated clearly that they know what they are, how to use them, and would prefer something else. It's just interesting to me! 

Like, hey, I'd like to use a belt to keep my pants up, have tried suspenders before but don't need them up that high, what kind of belt do you like, leather or rope, and people are like Larry King uses suspenders, my suspenders never gave me a wedgie, I like my pants up high as they can go, have you really tried suspenders...etc, etc, etc.  NO offense to suspenders! 

When the OP says his dog is a good boy, that makes sense to me - his dog is trained to a level where that kind of control isn't needed.


----------



## Shaolin

I've used prongs before on both my unruly dog and my Uncles' dog. Flat collars were of no use and I was afraid that they would choke themselves, or come very close to it with a CC. Prong was the way to go. After several months, they both "graduated" to CC's. Finn has never needed that much correction...heck...I don't even know how he'd react to a prong collar, now that I think about it.

What I ment by him being a "good boy" was that he has great leash manners. He's not a puller by any means. If he wanders to the end of the leash, usually because I've slowed down for some reason, even the slight tightening of the CC is enough to get him to stop for a second. I figured with the natural tightening of the Martingale would be more than enough for him.


----------



## Freestep

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> The OP did use a prong before - this is what I was referring to in my one post - that people can and do work with and train dogs to do what they want without a prong, or by using it for a while, and then discarding it. But that people seem to want to others to use them, even when they have stated clearly that they know what they are, how to use them, and would prefer something else. It's just interesting to me!





Shaolin said:


> I don't think Finn needs the choke any more, but I do need to have more correction than what is found in a quick tug on a flat collar.


This is the quote that made me think he needed a collar with some kind of corrective power--before that, I didn't even mention the prong and even did a search for specific types of martingale! I must have missed where she said she'd used a prong before, I just assumed that she hadn't, since she's anti-prong. Most people who have used them swear by them.



Shaolin said:


> What I ment by him being a "good boy" was that he has great leash manners. He's not a puller by any means. If he wanders to the end of the leash, usually because I've slowed down for some reason, even the slight tightening of the CC is enough to get him to stop for a second. I figured with the natural tightening of the Martingale would be more than enough for him.


Okay, now it makes sense. He doesn't really need collar corrections at this point if he's already learned good leash manners. If all he needs is to feel a slight tightness, I wouldn't call that a "correction". So in this case, a prong would probably be unnecessary.

I think what threw me off a little is the thinking that a dog could "graduate" to a choke from a prong, as though a choke were less severe. It certainly LOOKS less severe, but you can do way more damage with a choke than with a prong collar. And it's a lot harder to make proper corrections with a choke, especially for a beginner. Not sure where OP is on the spectrum as a trainer, but I tend not to assume that everyone understands training subtleties and jargon.

I have used slip/choke collars, but more for control, not for obedience training/corrections. In the grooming shop, it's a lot easier to put a slip lead over the dog's head than it is to keep a supply of martingales on hand and try to select the right size, etc, when it's is only going to be on the dog long enough to get him from room to room.


----------



## NancyJ

For SAR and general wear I use a center ring hunting collar with no d ring and a brass plate 

His tags are on a nylon/chain martingale but I don't leave it on him because Mr Houdini managed to get the chain hooked on his teeth. We are talking about a dog who removed his dog tags from a standard collar and chewed them up..while he was still wearing the collar. Don't ask.

Never had a problem with any of these and it is easy enough to remove and slide the bell on for SAR (or just get a bigger one that you can pop over the head with the bell already on. 

I still have and am weaning Beau off of the prong but this is all I ever needed for Grim and you can punch whatever holes you want. I usually tighten it up a little for walks and loosen for comfort wear around the house.

Sunglo Ring-In-Center Style Collars - 1" x 11" - 30" | Pet Supplies, Horse Supplies, Dog Supplies | KVsupply.com


----------



## Shaolin

Freestep said:


> I think what threw me off a little is the thinking that a dog could "graduate" to a choke from a prong, as though a choke were less severe. It certainly LOOKS less severe, but you can do way more damage with a choke than with a prong collar. And it's a lot harder to make proper corrections with a choke, especially for a beginner. Not sure where OP is on the spectrum as a trainer, but I tend not to assume that everyone understands training subtleties and jargon.


Not that big of a deal. I adopted a Chow/Husky mix ten years ago who, the ASPCA said that he was not exactly leash trained, but he just needed a bit of work. He was horribly abused; he had cuts all over his body and should've weighed about 45lbs, but he was only 30 when we picked him up. He was still loopy due to the drugs after being neutered the day before. That afternoon and night, he was so looped, we were able to just let him out off leash, but the minute he got some life in his eyes, we knew it was leash time. The next morning, I put a leash on him to take him outside to pee. He freaked and spun so hard he tore his stitches.

Thankfully the vet we took him to also trained dogs. He worked with us for a very long time on collar training. We tried a CC, but he spun so hard that he nearly killed himself. I worked with the vet and another trainer for about two months on using Prongs and CC. He finally was able to tolerate the CC and he's been wonderful ever since. Actually, he's using a flat collar now, but he still has his CC.

I don't use a bell for SAR. Thank heavens Finn is a talker. He makes a ton of noise. All the other dogs have bells, so it makes it kind of complicated and he just didn't like the thing jangling under his face or on his back. We also use Astro collars, so not having the bell isn't an issue, but it's good to know that if a bell ever becomes an option, I don't have to buy a new collar.


----------



## harmony

I would use a martingale over a choke any day, that even goes if i had to use a pinch. Choke collar can hurt a dogs esophagus in the long run, damage..


----------



## NancyJ

The Astro is good but we only have one handheld to 7 collars and even with a mast antenna at base with the trailer parked at the highest reasonable elevation -- on about a 25 foot mast, have such a time with the signal and it restarts the track every loss that we just hung it up with them for now and stick with one handheld standard GPS per crew....main issue here is terrain. 

If I were working an air scent dog that ranges out I would most certainly spend the money on my own personal Astro. 

I just wouldn't let him work in anything but a flat collar - never had one snag even going through heavy brush and even with a bell ... (where your arms and the dogs nose and tongue come out bleeding)...martingale could be fine for walking. 

Not sure why the team would care one bit about a choke collar though if you took it off for offlead work? Several of our team dogs wear prongs. (but not while working offlead)...same thing with the police department dogs we train with.


----------



## hunterisgreat

A choke collar and a prong collar are totally different tools for different purposes... polar opposites even. A prong delivers an instant correction. A choke suppresses and contains drives.. teaches the dog to hold it in and calm down. If you've ever felt a blood choke on yourself you'd understand why a choke calms the dog.

Martingale is merely a method of action of the collar. There are martingale chokes and martingale prongs... I have both.


----------



## msvette2u

> you'd understand why a choke calms the dog.


That's just it - from what I've experienced and seen, choke chains _don't _calm dogs.
They can, in fact, agitate a dog worse.
Unless you're talking about literally choking the dog out, then it's dizzy or light headed from lack of oxygen, and yes, it may seem calm.


----------



## Shaolin

jocoyn said:


> The Astro is good but we only have one handheld to 7 collars and even with a mast antenna at base with the trailer parked at the highest reasonable elevation -- on about a 25 foot mast, have such a time with the signal and it restarts the track every loss that we just hung it up with them for now and stick with one handheld standard GPS per crew....main issue here is terrain.
> 
> ...
> 
> Not sure why the team would care one bit about a choke collar though if you took it off for offlead work? Several of our team dogs wear prongs. (but not while working offlead)...same thing with the police department dogs we train with.


Terrain can be a pain.  Where I live, it's pretty flat. We haven't had too many problems with ours. They just didn't want the choke on during training for getting caught up in stuff, which I get. Finn has one of those very wide velcro and buckle collars that says rescue on it for the team, so that's what we usually use. Since he only does off-lead work, I'm okay with him not using the CC.

@hunterisgreat: That's very interesting to know that there's a Martingale style choke. Where did you find it? I'm still wanting to lean away from the choke style, but that's always good information to have.


----------



## msvette2u

Martingales and choke chains are two different things. 
A Martingale is also called "limited slip" collar. 

The Difference Between a Martingale Collar and Chain Choke Collar - Yahoo! Voices - voices.yahoo.com


----------



## NancyJ

Shaolin said:


> hey just didn't want the choke on during training for getting caught up in stuff, which I get.


Then it's simple to me. It takes seconds to put on a choke. Carry it in your pocket and put it on when you put on the lead and take it off when you unclip. You can even use the nylon kind with the snap. (Remember those - best fit/control of all the chokes).


----------



## hunterisgreat

msvette2u said:


> That's just it - from what I've experienced and seen, choke chains _don't _calm dogs.
> They can, in fact, agitate a dog worse.
> Unless you're talking about literally choking the dog out, then it's dizzy or light headed from lack of oxygen, and yes, it may seem calm.


In my experience it's a very effective tool to calm and cap drive. There is little or no overlap in the two tools in my training. You just haven't seen it used in the way I use it. It absolutely can calm a dog


----------



## hunterisgreat

Herm Sprenger makes martingale chokes.


----------



## cliffson1

Martingales and German Shepherds are like alcohol and ice cream! I think fur savers are best for regular walks and prongs if needed or training. I like clothes to fit the person....lol


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Are you saying ice cream and alcohol don't mix?!? Because...that sounds good!


----------



## NancyJ

mmmmmm Kahlua and Ice Cream


----------



## Neo93

Creme de Menthe and ice cream - mmmmmm.


----------



## hunterisgreat

Yeah I'm totally not sure what that metaphor means lol.


----------



## Shaolin

hunterisgreat said:


> In my experience it's a very effective tool to calm and cap drive. There is little or no overlap in the two tools in my training. You just haven't seen it used in the way I use it. It absolutely can calm a dog


That is why I love the CC. Finn has very, very high drive and the CC worked like a dream. The very first time he wore it, he went to the end of the leash and pulled forward. The collar closed a bit, he stopped and just looked at me. That nights' walk was very long; he kept stopping and starting. I would say it took about a solid month before we had good compliance and he stopped trying to strain past the end of the leash. I never pulled a yoke and choke, but he definitely got some good, solid corrections along the way and even now, he still needs a good one every now and again. I just want to see if we can graduate to a non choke style collar, but since he slips out of his regular flat one, I've read that Martingales are the way to go.

By the by, I love peaches, home made vanilla ice cream, and Canadian Ice Wine. I think what the poster is going for is beer and ice cream. It might just be me, but my stomach can't handle that mix at all.


----------



## NancyJ

The nylon snap choke allows you to snap the snap on the dead ring - viola - normal collar or on the live ring - choke collar. I found one that has the right measurements (made in half inch increments for precise fit)

http://www.k9behavioralservices.com/online_store_01.htm


----------



## Freestep

Shaolin said:


> We tried a CC, but he spun so hard that he nearly killed himself.


This is what I mean about choke collars being far more harsh than prong collars. They have the potential to do a lot more damage than good. To each their own, but I don't understand why some people think a prong collar is so terrible and inhumane, compared to a choke in a situation like this.


----------



## hunterisgreat

Freestep said:


> This is what I mean about choke collars being far more harsh than prong collars. They have the potential to do a lot more damage than good. To each their own, but I don't understand why some people think a prong collar is so terrible and inhumane, compared to a choke in a situation like this.


All depends on when and why you're using either.


----------



## Shaolin

Freestep said:


> This is what I mean about choke collars being far more harsh than prong collars. They have the potential to do a lot more damage than good. To each their own, but I don't understand why some people think a prong collar is so terrible and inhumane, compared to a choke in a situation like this.


It wasn't the correction on the CC that sparked him. He was just an abused dog who did not like collars/leashes and the CC was impossible to get off of him. We just happened to have a pair of bolt cutters within feet of us and we ended up cutting a quarter sized chunk out of his neck just to get him free. 

I was initially against prongs; I didn't like how they looked and I thought that it was going to stab my dog into submission. I was more than willing to never put a collar or leash on my dog and just build a large pen butting up against the back door to let him in and out. The collar class I took showed me that the prong wasn't the torture device I thought it was and it gave Baxter a new lease on life. 

I think that prongs get a bad rap just from people who misuse them and from the fact that they just look painful. I wish there were more classes out there that went over every type of collar- from flat to 'Shock' so that people can learn that every collar has its use and place in the dog world.


----------



## NancyJ

Wheres the like button?


----------



## Shaolin

LoL! I'm honored! It's true, though. After that class, I learned that I would never say that I'd never use a certain type of collar, it's just the dog doesn't need that particular collar at that moment.

My first non-use experience of a prong collar was watching a neighbor yoke and choke a Boxer mix. To this day, I couldn't tell you what that dog did wrong, but the owner tagged this dog so hard that the dog was screaming and bleeding as he dragged the dog home. That was my _I will NEVER use a prong on a dog ever_ moment.

My change happened when I was able to walk Baxter around the block for the very first time. He held his head up as if he were King Dog and had that cutsie little prance as we went. His tail was wagging and he was happy, not terrified and trying to kill himself. From that point, I became sort of a collar advocate, praising every collar for its use, never slamming a collar just because I didn't personally like it.

Maybe down the line, I'll be smart enough to teach my own 'Collar Class'.


----------



## NancyJ

They are all merely tools; you just need to be a crafstman (or apprentice under one) to use them properly.


----------

