# My two female GSD have been fighting and it's getting worse, need help



## Athena24 (Jan 19, 2017)

I'll try to be as detailed as possible. Any questions please ask. 

I have two female GSD. The oldest Athena is about 6, and the youngest Luna is about 3. Both females. Luna is a solid 100 pounds and is bigger than Athena, however Athena up until recently had always been the dominate one. Athena has never played too well with other dogs. She is just concerned on what I'm doing. She was always very dependent on us so when we got a bigger place we thought we would get another one for her to have someone to play with as Athena is very hyper active. 

At first everything went great. They played a little, but Athena likes to rough house and play kind of rough. Luna was always so submissive and never really liked to play like that. Over time, Athena kind of bullied Luna. We tried to correct that situation, and over time things got better with that. However, once Luna got bigger and realized her own strength, they played together less and less, and eventually she started to push back when Athena would confront her. This led to fighting. In the beginning it wasn't too bad, they were mostly pushing and shoving. They looked and sounded aggressive as ****, but nothing ever happened. Was mostly slobber. But it looks and sounds like they are fighting to the death. But they would stop if me and my wife got up and left the room.

We tried lot of different things as far as being better leaders and seeing what was causing these fights and preventing them from happening before they started. Months would go by without ever having a incident. In September last year, we moved and the fights have gotten worse. Luna now never plays with Athena and she has started to initiate the fights. They also will not stop if we leave the room now. Last weekend we had a house sitter and they went at it for a while. Luna pins Athena to the ground and had her mouth over Athena's throat. Eventually when Athena was able to get up she defended herself and cut Luna wide open on her face. Luna had to go see a emergency vet for stitches. Athena was unharmed. 

Today another fight broke out. This time my wife was home. Luna approached Athena and started it. She could not stop it and the fight went for several minutes. Again, the same thing happened. Luna pinned Athena down, but when Athena got up she once again hurt Luna with a scratch to her face. 

They were split up. Athena kept going to the door and wanting to see Luna. When they finally got back together, Athena went to check on Luna and she was not having any of it. Was obvious Luna was pissed and did not want to be around Athena. I had to separate them again, just by the way Luna was acting.

I understand that this is a dominance issue. Athena has always been dominate over Luna, but now Luna is challenging her. The fights are getting worse but still neither of them is actually biting to hurt or kill one another, not yet. But accidents keep happening and it's only a matter of time. The best I can judge the situation is that Luna does not like Athena and basically just puts up with her. Does anyone have any suggestions. I plan on contacting a trainer tomorrow, but I really don't want to spend thousands of dollars for help if there just going to do it again a year from now. A trainer maybe can fix the dominace, but can they really make each dog like each other and make them want to play with one another? I feel like that's a reach and it would only been a matter of time before something like this starts happening again.

Re-homing Luna is a last resort that I really don't want to do. She is such a sweet dog to us and other people. She has never shown any aggression towards other dogs or animals.


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

I have never had two females that got along very well. I know on the forum here, many people speak about female to female aggression, so I will assume some of the folks who are more knowledgeable will comment.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

I didn't read through your entire post, I apologize. But, I can tell you female to female fighting is the worst. Once it gets started, it's not likely to stop. Girls seem to be grudge holders.

Make sure your trainer really understands GSDs. Most pet dog trainers are not really experts in aggression. You may want to contact an IPO club for a referral.

There's no need to rehome anybody! You can do the crate and rotate thing to keep them separated. They get used to it, their stress levels go way down and so do yours.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

zetti said:


> I didn't read through your entire post, I apologize. But, I can tell you female to female fighting is the worst. Once it gets started, it's not likely to stop. Girls seem to be grudge holders.
> 
> Make sure your trainer really understands GSDs. Most pet dog trainers are not really experts in aggression. You may want to contact an IPO club for a referral.
> 
> There's no need to rehome anybody! You can do the crate and rotate thing to keep them separated. They get used to it, their stress levels go way down and so do yours.


Crating and rotating for another 6 or 7 years can be very stressful on dogs and owners. If two dogs, who hate each other, have to live in the same house, they will be stressed no matter if they are physically safe. Females fight to drive the other out. It depends how much time and management you are willing to invest to keep them safe. Another issue is that if they fight, it will get uglier over time and it is also dangerous for you to interfere. But not interfering (to keep yourself safe) with a F-F fight can get deadly for the dogs.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

wolfy dog said:


> Crating and rotating for another 6 or 7 years can be very stressful on dogs and owners. If two dogs, who hate each other, have to live in the same house, they will be stressed no matter if they are physically safe. Females fight to drive the other out. It depends how much time and management you are willing to invest to keep them safe. Another issue is that if they fight, it will get uglier over time and it is also dangerous for you to interfere. But not interfering (to keep yourself safe) with a F-F fight can get deadly for the dogs.


Lots of breeders do crate and rotate with their breeding females. You have no choice when you don't have a kennel. Dogs adapt.

You crate them in separate rooms in the house.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

zetti said:


> Lots of breeders do crate and rotate with their breeding females. You have no choice when you don't have a kennel. Dogs adapt.
> 
> You crate them in separate rooms in the house.


Ever lived with crate and rotate? I did for years. And may have to again. It isn't fun or easy for dogs or owners.
It creates a stressful environment for all involved and doubles time needed to exercise and care for dogs. It means a life divided by doors gates and fences. It means all parties give up something. And a stressed dog may display behaviors not previously seen. Such as aggression/frustration, destructive chewing or self harm.
Its a reason many breeders utilize co owners or fosters.
It isn't something the average pet home should ever do.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Your new life is Crate and Rotate. Once females start fighting, it does not end.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I crated and rotated...I really did not want to re home


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I have 2 females, one is a GSD, they are 12 and 5. They have gotten into it a couple times, but nothing like the males. I would say the females get along really well. 

I'm doing crate and rotate with the 2 male GSDs and it's not bad. They are rotated pretty good, so they have a good amount of freedom. In the summer I will most likely put a basket muzzle on Apollo so they can enjoy equal outside time. Right now they are inside most of the time due to the weather. I take turns taking them on errands and we go hiking at least once a week. If I had a second person in the home I would not be as reluctant to put them together, but I don't want to get hurt or see them hurt each other.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

You can never leave them loose together without two adults capable of breaking them up present. And, it is better if you just do not leave them loose together at all. 

If they do fight, putting them back together again before the endorphins go down (maybe days) is going to mean another fight. 

Crate and rotate isn't the end of the world, you learn how to always make sure one gate is shut before opening the other. It is what it is. 

This is why most people do not suggest multiple females. 

The question is actually quite serious, and you need to sit down with your spouse about a week after crating and rotating and have a conversation. You have to decide whether this is something you can do. If it isn't, then you have to decide which dog to rehome and how. If you think you can do it, having a couple of nice indoor/outdoor kennel runs (maybe in a garage or basement) can be very helpful. Then you just bring one girl in for the evening, take her out and kennel her and bring the other in for the night. If they start fence-fighting, you can run something between the two runs where they can't see each other -- that knocks it down a lot. But they may not fence fight at all, especially if you have one in, and one out, most of the time. But you have to have two runs. Because you can't just hang onto the one when you release the other. 

Forget about dominance. This is Same Sex Aggression, SSA. If you have females where one is a natural alpha and the other is a natural follower, then that works ok, usually, until something may change the order of things. But you don't. You have two bitches that both feel similar in power. Unfortunately, when we interfere, we can often make this worse. Like if we always pet the one dog first, and always feed the one dog first. If the other is naturally more dominant, or similar, they feel the unfairness and blame it entirely on the other bitch. It makes things worse. Spaying will not help, could make it worse, but once fights have broken out, it won't improve matters, and I doubt it will make that much of a difference the other way either.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

Back when I had a kennel, I had two females who were both super social and dog friendly. One girl decided she hated the other. It was just a bitch thing. Both got on fine with other females.

We had to set up a separate kennel for one of the girls so the other couldn't see her. Just walking past each other made for a huge racket. Of course, we never turned them out together.

Then, we moved and one of the girls died of a mysterious auto immune disorder. We went on crate and rotate for years. Eventually we put our remaining two girls together in the house without incident for years until we lost our older girl to kidney failure.

We're doing crate and rotate right now, it's fine. Lexi isn't dog friendly and though Raff still has his puppy license, I don't want to risk another dog asserting dominance over him. 

Dogs are extremely adaptable creatures. Lots of people in the dog world crate and rotate. Most people in dog sports own more than one dog and don't have kennels.


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

zetti said:


> Lots of breeders do crate and rotate with their breeding females. You have no choice when you don't have a kennel. Dogs adapt.
> 
> You crate them in separate rooms in the house.


I tend to question this technique for a regular family. I know that breeders have intact males and females in the same vicinity, and need to take special measures. But as regular pet owner, I have had to separate dogs due to age, sex, or size before, and it is not fun. Not fun.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

No, I don't think the average pet owner is really prepared for what crate and rotate means. I've had to do it with an intact male and bitches in heat. It's a pain, but you get used to it. But also it's not all the time. 

I'm fully aware that I may have to crate and rotate once this new puppy matures. Right now she's just 5 months old. She's not one to back down, and my 7 year old bitch is pretty dominant. It is what it is, and I'll deal with it. It wasn't a problem with Carly and Sage, but I dealt with it when I had Dobes years ago. I'm better prepared now.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Ok well bottom line ... is you are screwed!! You pretty well stepped into the deep end of the pool! So ... now you know!

Sigh ... still ...lots of folks have "multiple females" and they say ... they did fine! As it happens "Boxers" are the worst of the worst of the worst "Boxer Rescue Policy" is no female "Boxers" in homes that already have a "Female Boxer!" They ... are that bad!! I have seen my "Baby Girl" "Struddell" nutup on on two occasions! And they had "nothing to do with "female aggression" baby kittens being born ... I screwed up "Struddell" was quiet and respectful with each new birth and Gunther "American Band Dawg" was much more ..."excited." 

Gunther greeted each new birth with an excited bark and "Struddel" felt he should show show more respect!! She crossed over me in a freaking flash and was on him!! I had to literally rip her off him! But that was not the end of it!!! She was freaking "Berserk!!!" 

Removing her ... did nothing! She was gone ... I had to literally her head held tight to my face, lay on her till she "calmed down!!!" I'm a veteran out at the dogs fighting thing ... but I was stunned by that!! After a bit when she'd calmed the heck down .. I let her up and she was like "hey Dad ... what's up??" I'm pretty much an old hand at breaking up dogs fights .. but I had never seen anything like my baby girl when she just flat lost it! She was just flat gone!! 

That ... kind of "insanity" is what your dealing with! The simplest easiest solution is to just admit you made a mistake and rehome one of the dogs! 

If that does not work for you?? Then Crate and Rotate, is a viable interm option! But sigh ... no one wants to live with there dogs like. that for life ... I would imagine??? 

A muzzle seems like a viable solution, you put one on the "aggressor" and you know all seems fine for awhile ... so you take the muzzle off and "Bam" ... there they go again!!!

Been there done that with two males in my case ... an American Band Dawg and my OS WL GSD ... "who always started it! I went to the "ER" for stitches, breaking up one of five fights!!! That is kinda sorta where you are. 

But you know ... on the other hand ... lots of folks with the worst of the worst "Female Boxers" do have multiple females and they do fine?? Boxer folks don't tend to talk much ... but in understanding the "basic" mistakes I made ... at the heart of them were ... my GSD was not Crate Trained and he was allowed to "Free Roam" in the house!!

That meant that he was pretty much free to chose "when" he decided to "strike!" And I had to scramble to try and stop him!! 

I have no idea if you can stop this or if these dogs will ever be able to live together?? But ... if you want to try, it would take, "Crate Training and a no Free Roaming" in the house policy at the minimum! 

And it would not hurt to "also" enlist the aid of a "competent qualified, Trainer" and note if there ad says "Gentle or Positive" only "anything" they can't help you! 

So ... that said getting a grip on this crap ... would look like this.:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-behavior/658865-my-11-month-old-gs-crazy.html

And note "Place and Sit on the Dog" those and a "No free roaming in the house policy" are going to be your keys!! I don't plan on ever doing multiple females myself ... Boxer guy but you know ... crap happens and if I do have to have two females ... that post is what I'm doing ... one trip to the ER because of a "Pack Fight" is more than enough for me! 

Ask questions and welcome aboard.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

dogfaeries said:


> No, I don't think the average pet owner is really prepared for what crate and rotate means. I've had to do it with an intact male and bitches in heat. It's a pain, but you get used to it. But also it's not all the time.


Agreed, only for a few weeks a year and still a pain. You have to be 100% vigilant because determined dogs are fast and creative, whether it is to breed or fight.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

maxtmill said:


> I tend to question this technique for a regular family. I know that breeders have intact males and females in the same vicinity, and need to take special measures. But as regular pet owner, I have had to separate dogs due to age, sex, or size before, and it is not fun. Not fun.


Le sigh.

Some things about owning GSDs aren't fun. They don't always love each other and play nicely. This is exactly why when people ask me about getting a GSD as a family pet, I refer them to an excellent Lab breeder I know.

There are two options with female-female aggression. Assuming the owner doesn't want to pack it all up and buy a nice kennel in the country.

1. Rehome one of the girls. 
I always question this option. Is there really a demand for GSDs who have bounced out of a prior home due to an aggression issue?

2. Crate and rotate.
It takes a bit of time to get used to it, but you eventually get a routine down. Hasn't anyone here ever raised multiple children? Dogs are waaaayyyy easier than that, from what I hear.


Learn from my mistakes. We're doing crate and rotate with baby Raff and Lexi. I don't entirely trust her with him. For the first couple of weeks, I used Lexi's upstairs crate. Put her in there every time I took 8-9 week old Raff out.

On the verge of complete collapse, the lightbulb went off in my head: WHY DON'T WE PUT ANOTHER CRATE DOWNSTAIRS FOR LEXI?!

Poof. Problem solved. We already have more crates than PetSmart.

Moral of the story: make it easy on yourself.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

zetti said:


> Hasn't anyone here ever raised multiple children? Dogs are waaaayyyy easier than that, from what I hear.


We raised three kids. Everything went well without any major hurdles. They are fine young adults. It helps when you have experience as trainer and teacher. It is really not much different; be fair, consistent, don't sweat the small stuff and let them deal with the consequences of their behavior. Ever imagined raising a GSD the way they raise kids nowadays?


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

You don't have to crate and rotate. But you do have to know how to prevent a fight and make is clear fighting is off the table. It is possible. For most of the public, maybe it is too much to ask, and of course we don't want dogs to get hurt or even killed, but I will not live with crate and rotate, not fair to me, not fair to my dogs. Far better to set up a kennel system if total separation is your option. No dog wants to spend half (or far more) of her life in a crate.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

Muskeg said:


> You don't have to crate and rotate. But you do have to know how to prevent a fight and make is clear fighting is off the table. It is possible. For most of the public, maybe it is too much to ask, and of course we don't want dogs to get hurt or even killed, but I will not live with crate and rotate, not fair to me, not fair to my dogs. Far better to set up a kennel system if total separation is your option. No dog wants to spend half (or far more) of her life in a crate.


 Very dangerous advice. Don't kid yourself. Two bitches determined to kill each other are going to fight unless they are separated.

No human can 'know how to prevent a fight' with 100% accuracy. I'm guessing you're basing your statement on experience with your own two dogs. Perhaps they just aren't off the charts same sex aggressive.

There is nothing wrong with crate and rotate until owners start projecting all kinds of imaginary human thoughts and feelings onto their dogs. It's certainly less traumatic than being uprooted and shipped off to strangers.

My dogs love their crates. Lexi often sleeps in hers on her own, with the door wide open. She has the option of jumping on our bed, but sometimes, she likes her crate better. It's a dog thing.

Raff has been crate trained with treats, he's got tremendous food drive, so all I have to say is 'treats!' and he flies into his crate with a few dance moves on the way.

No pro trainer worth his or her salt would ever tell you that they know a sure fire way to prevent bitch fights. It may work with a given pair, but it's very dangerous to try to generalize. Bitch fights tend to be truly violent.

Males are more inclined to fight 'about' something, i.e. territory, a female, a toy, dominance, etc. There's a lot of theater involved and posturing. If one dog caves and shows submission, it's over.

Male vs female fights also happen, though male GSDs tend to be somewhat deferential toward females. 

Fights happen with GSDs. They're not Labs.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

2 males, I'd try and manage without crate/rotate or a kennel system. Two females that are fighting, no way.


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## Dogdad-of-4-GSDs (Jul 13, 2020)

zetti said:


> Very dangerous advice. Don't kid yourself. Two bitches determined to kill each other are going to fight unless they are separated.
> 
> No human can 'know how to prevent a fight' with 100% accuracy. I'm guessing you're basing your statement on experience with your own two dogs. Perhaps they just aren't off the charts same sex aggressive.
> 
> ...


I know this was quite some time ago, but I could not agree more! Extremely dangerous, I have a tall lean 115 pound male German shepherd, and two females, we rescued her because there was 1 hour left on the posts set time where if nobody got this beautiful almost all black with little hints of deep red brown 12 month old girl, he was going to take her out back and shoot her.

The first two months were amazing, she fit in instantly, the twinkle in her eye like she belonged to a pack now, it felt like home leaving us would have confused her and upset her a second time in a short period. So she stayed.

the first fight Between the females appeared to be over the ball, it didn’t appear it was going to be deadly, like 2 males bumping heads in fetch. Still didn’t separate on their own. I got bit, drew blood. Lost my cool, and when the dad voice came out. They tucked their heads and stopped. But I had a feeling it was the beginning, same thing again, next outing, this time no apparent or even probable visible guess as to why, we get home. Find out she was on her period, I figured that was a good possible reason due to the fact neither female or male was fixed. But inside the house they’d snuggle. 4 months on and off of break up able scuffles started. But again seemed more or less as two males.

what I didn’t know until I got treat cameras for the house on a whimsical purchase, the females were Just picking random moments to start fighting, but the large male always floored one or both and stoped it in seconds, but he was getting annoyed of keeping pack order well we were at work, one day when the first female started at the rescue, on camera he grabbed her by the neck and top of the head in his mouth before she got a bite on the rescue, and banged her head against the wall repeatedly like a person in an action movie, and what appeared to be purposely, no longer pinning and dominating. I knew that was a sign of deep frustration with them. She did not even look at the rescue for about a week after that, she’d look at her crazy for no reason, then at my male then tuck her head like the thought was shameful and walk away.

I got crates on my way home to begin that process steel welded cages. And the first female and usually the instigator head butted her way out of the cage, breaking the welds and leaving massive goose eggs on her snout and forehead just to go up stairs and try to attack the other female still in her crate.

I bought another crate, this time with my rebar wire tier, twist tied wire all the way around the door each time I put her in and untied to take her out, it wasn’t practical but seemed to be working well I was working long shifts, the girlfriend was always done between 2-3 and let 1 female out back with the male at a time. And it was annoying with wire but working, she then busted the welds out of the bottom chipping a tooth to get at her. The male, being so extremely smart and almost as if a human who remembers his past life accepted he was in a dogs body lol, had let the female out of her crate earlier, they were sleeping in the room, she busted in and it was the bloodiest most painful thing to watch, there was no stopping it, blood spraying my adrenaline was up full blast, the male speaks their language but wouldn’t engage if I was there due to pack order, I used chairs, a coffee table tried to pull one off by the hind legs well jamming a chair between the other but every time I pulled it sounded like a shirt collar ripping, I could not pull without tearing her throat as the other would not let up, ended up hitting her with a chair 3 times in the head very hard by accident trying to slam it between them. And her eyes never once unlocked on the other female in her mouth, neither submitted and neither cared.

then we did separate rooms all together, it worked beautifully until the male started opening doors when he was bored. They found cracks between ur legs and the door too small for a toddler to slip out and go to the death, 3 emergency trips for stitches, they didn’t care or stop. And at this point lost any possible idea trying to problem solve of what was triggering it. Simply another female existing. The rescue who never instigated one time, nor appeared to want it until it was on for the death, then she became a new dog. It was breaking my heart, they couldn’t look at each other (no barking) not even a growl, just quick flinches around the humans and furniture and began a blood bath, came home to blood on the walls when she broke out of her cage previously mentioned and male let the other out. He must have stopped it because they will not stop. It’s to the death, he was standing in the hallway to the kitchen and living room, one female was in the kitchen and one was in the living room. I assume his doing standing in the middle. Re-homing was starting to seem like the only option, determined, non quitting and extremely intelligent breed. And I feel bad luck was on my side with just how incredibly Houdini like they all happen to be. No kennel in the cards then. So incase of escape I had a muzzle on the aggressor and instigator. As I said before the other female wanted no part in a fight. But would not quit if it happened. Never even gave the other a dirty look. Well that didn’t work, because the non violent never started it before once rescue saw her up close for the first time in 2 days, and immediately attacked her, just as hard to break up without the muzzle. Accept the one female couldn’t defend her self, I tried to headlock her I was out of options her neck was in her mouth and she had a muzzle and couldn’t defend and get it of the other dogs mouth. Just tearing and shaking, so I lifted the muzzled female as high as a could put my back against the wall and double leg pushed as hard as I could on the female out the patio door and slammed it shut. We’ve thought possibility the sight of the first female now brings fear and instinct attack first sick of being attacked.

well we found a solution that works wonders!!! In the master bedroom during the day well one or both are home. The girlfriend is home all day. Spends time and snuggles getting her attention and snuggle needs, well I’m down stairs feeding the other one and male, playing in the back yard, and then rotate, one female into the laundry room, well the other transfers into the bedroom then release the other outside with my self and the male to go to bathroom and play and eat! They always get one of us at all times and always get to play with the male and the alternate weekly who sleeps with us! It sounds unorthodox but given a last chance idea, and situation with escape and attention seeking. it works so beautifully and smoothly, took getting used to id freak if she closed the door in a second rather then a millisecond in panic, and vice versa, second guessing if we closed door enough fearful next one is the last fight. Once we were use to it, they don’t even notice, once they were face to face upstairs hallway and bedroom and never charged just sat there looking at each other like oh yea you. You aren’t bothering me at sight anymore I never have to see you. They almost liked the routine because they did not have to see each other. Adapted fast, and I know they will never be able to be loose alone or unmuzzled ever again, once that ice is broken, there is usually no going back. And can be no real trigger then what ever smell popped up well they were making eye contact. Can never guess or assume or try to eliminate factors it’s dangerous and unrealistic. Eliminate the ability to get close enough to fight. We did take a few jabs at possible emotional factors but not so much to stop the fighting as to make them less stressed and consumed with as little negative emotion that contributes as possible so they can be calm and happy we’ll still smelling each other in the house. Triggers in 2 female home aggression is useless and even if you are right you can’t stop the fighting. It will happen no matter what you try to eliminate because it’s just nature and instinct. And neither of mine are beta females


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Knew a lady with a couple of breeding females, 2 of which didn't get along. She had professionally designed kennels that the dogs lived in. Worked great, until she was away for a couple of days, and the person looking after the dogs didn't secure a gate. The one female ripped open the other dog's belly. She survived, but it took thousands of dollars in surgery, and a prolonged recovery time.

This is what you are facing: crate and rotate, for the rest of their lives, and be aware there's ALWAYS the risk that someone will slip up, and the two will be at it again. Muzzling doesn't work, either. I had a dog aggressive dog, tried to get her use to a very sturdy wire cage muzzle with strong leather straps, attached to both the top and bottom of her collar. She broke the straps. Luckily, I knew enough not to let her be unsupervised when wearing the muzzle.

It's a tough decision, but bottom line is you either rehome one of the dogs, or crate and rotate for the rest of their lives. And if one of them gets loose, well it could be you'll be down to just one female a lot sooner than you think, because they can and will kill each other.


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