# My dog escaped yard and bit neighbour



## Katie9 (Aug 19, 2018)

Guys my 2yr dog escaped our yard and bit a neighbour today. I didnt see what happened but they said he charged from behind and bit her on the back. It was quite high at the back so he must have charged pretty fast. Im really at a loss of what to do or think. I never thought that he would bite someone without any provocation. I kept thinking what if it was in the face, what if it was a child. Guys i dont know what to do. My dog is extremely sweet to family and friends. But he can be such a different dog with people he doesnt know. I love him so much and i feel so conflicted right now. My parents want to keep in on a muzzle at all times after this incident because they say they are becoming old and forgetful when it comes to closing the gate etc. But i cant stand to see him like that. I feel so hurt and angry at the whole situation. I dont really know what im expecting to hear. I know he needs more training. I wish i know what we are doing. I feel so heart broken like my whole world is crashing down. I dont care what i have to do i just want him to be happy and also never hurt another person again. I would be so grateful for any advice.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Wow, tough situation. 

I guess, I would want to know if the neighbor went to the hospital and had stitches or a drain put in. This is something that could indicate whether this was a nip or a bite. As you know GSDs have gigantic teeth and if they are intent on doing injury, they will cause bruising, bleeding, and often the need for stitches or drains. This medical care should be paid by your family, and apologies are in order.

It would be good to know what was happening at the time. For instance, if the lady was walking from the car to the house, and the dog ran up and nailed her, or was the lady having her morning run and the dog chased and nipped. This is not to make the neighbor liable for the bite, but to give accurate information to the behaviorist-trainer that you employ to evaluate and or train your dog with you. The behavior can mean different things. GSDs do not generally roam around looking for someone to bite. A running person might be too much for a young dog to resist, and it if was a nip it might have been communication -- "And stay out!" or "play with me!" Could be. Or it could be a dog of lesser character who will chicken-bite. They wait until whatever it is they are fearful of turns their back and then they rush up and give a nip or a bite.

From the neighbor's viewpoint, a bite is a bite. From the owners, it is more complicated. You have to decide whether the dog made a poor choice, and improved confidence, increased training, a change in leadership style, and better management will mean that you can safely keep your dog, or whether the dog is aggressive to the point that he is a liability to children and adults and needs to be put down so that he doesn't cause a more serious injury or death of someone. 

I don't think you are there yet. That kind of decision should be made by someone who is well-versed in the breed and is evaluating the dog in front of them. The dog is a young dog, just getting through the teenager-stage. It could just be a young adult who is full of himself, with sketchy leadership, and poor management. 

Management -- first you got to keep others safe as well as your dog. I agree that 24 hour muzzling is not an option.

Leadership -- NILIF -- Nothing in Life is Free is one leadership style. There are others. Consistency and confidence are key here. The dog needs to trust you to protect him and look to you for how he should act.

Training -- Every dog needs training, but GSDs more so than some. They are intelligent, energetic dogs that are not necessarily an indicator of docile obedience. The bond between owner and dog is built and solidified through training. Without it, the dog has little structure, and does not know how to act in all situations. 

Exercise -- A young dog who is bored and left to his own devices is trouble. This dog should not have access to the gate open or not on his own. He does not need a ton of freedom, he needs to be taken out on lead and walked, maybe run, and regularly. The gates at home should be secondary defenses. But the dog should not be left to exercise himself -- that is your job. 

Socialization -- This is last because a dog should be well-managed, under a solid leadership program, trained or in-training with confidence in his handler and well exercised before we expose them to people he doesn't know, and situations that may make him uneasy. Puppies are usually much better equipped to experience a variety of things, and this should be done during the early puppy stages to take advantage of that and to set some of that learning. If that was not done doing it as an adult should be done only after great strides have been made in the rest of these. 

I hope you can find a good trainer-behaviorist who is willing to evaluate your dog and work with you and him.


----------



## Katie9 (Aug 19, 2018)

Thank you so much for your advice. The neighbour went to a clinic to get a shot and antibiotics. Which we paid for and we deeply apologized and were really sorry. We went to all our neighbours and explained what happened and what we are going to do to prevent this from happening again. I was so thankful that it wasnt a child that plays around here. I feel sick thinking about it. I just cant believe he left our property like that. I didnt even know he was capabe of biting anyone but now i know that he is.

Could you tell me more about chicken bites? I really hate to say this but i think it may have very well been a CHICKEN bite. The neighbour was walking away from the house, about 2 houses down when this happened (see pictures). He is a bit of a fearful dog and i dont know what he was thinking going off our property like that being the fearful dog he is. We have been working with our trainer on confidence building exercises because my trainer did notice that he lacked confidence. So i think its reasonable to say that the bite may have been out of some inferiority complex. 

My neighbour also told us to check if he was neutered properly and it occurred to me that he may not have been because he had crypto. 

The thing is when he was a puppy i brought him absolutely everywhere to meet different people and new situations. I still remember those days when he was so friendly and played with everyone and loved being pet. But at 5 or 6 months he out of no where became a different dog. Reactive to people and other dogs. Extremely protective of me. My trainer at the time (a different one) said he was one of those dogs that likes to put on a show but wouldnt actually bite. Now i know that he would do it and m still in shock at this whole thing. 

I know im a bad owner. I spoil him. I hate seeing him suffer. I was lenient because i hate to treat him like a "slave". I need to do better. I just didnt want to be "harsh" at the wrong time and make things worse for him. Make him confused as to why i was being "mean". But i dont want him to hurt another person. He is only 2 years old and i need to invest in some serious leadership if expect to keep him for the next decade.


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

That's a scratch from toenails not a bite.If your parents are forgetful about the gate why not put in a dog kennel in the back yard to keep him safe and secure when you are not home?They are inexpensive and come in 5x6 ft.panels that are super easy to install.You will work through his issues with the help of your trainer.


----------



## Katie9 (Aug 19, 2018)

Can a scratch really go that deep to the point of making someone bleed like that? How can you tell? Please let me know. They told me it was a bite. 

We dont have a kennel for him because we usually watch him most of the time even if he is in the yard. But this time my dad was mowing the lawn forgot to close the gate ?. We were home at the time. I saw him through my window running loose at the front yard. I ran out the house asap and didnt get there in time ?


----------



## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Ohhhh, trust me. I've bled heaps from dogs scratching me with their nails. One of the dogs I walked was a huge jumper. The owners would come home everyday and get her to jump up on them, so whenever I came into the house, she would jump on me. One time her nail cut my face and there was lots of blood. I had that scratch for about two weeks. People often asked what happened. I have scars on my legs and hands from dogs scratching me. It is very possible.

If her back was to the dog when it happened, it's possible she thought it was a bite when it was really just his nails. In the end, I'm not sure it matters a huge amount. It has been recorded as a bite, and either way it was unacceptable and shouldn't have happened, which you know. I would move forward thinking it was a bite so that you can prevent a bite from happening ever again. If you go ahead thinking it was just a scratch, your guard will be down. That can't happen.


----------



## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

dogma13 said:


> That's a scratch from toenails not a bite.



I had exactly the same thought! No tooth puncture, and it's in shape of a paw, dragging down the skin.


It's still bad, and some cities count scratches as bites in a dog's record. It might make a difference for insurance. Most policies have a duty to report -- even if there's no claim -- but the question is _what _your duty to report is (all dog-caused injuries or only bites specifically). You'll have to read the policy and research your state law (or talk with your agent) to figure out whether this counts as a material change in the risk.



If you don't, the insurance company in some states has a right of rescission (retroactive cancellation, years later, even though you paid the insurance premium). The company argues "we wouldn't have renewed the policy had we known the true risk, and you misled us by hiding the true risk" (that you had a dog with a history of injuring a neighbor), so therefore, the policy becomes void. Any major claim could trigger the rescission, even one that doesn't involve the dog -- I've heard of companies doing this after a fire burned down the house, when they found out about a dog not allowed under the policy. It's a nasty, nasty practice in the states that allow it. So it's probably worth figuring it out and dealing with it, and not just hoping they don't find out.


If closing the gate is the issue, you can put a self-closing, self-locking mechanism that installs easily with a screwdriver and electric drill. They're often used for swimming pool gates. For more money, you could put in a double-gate system, where you walk into a box like a kennel, close the first gate, and then open the second gate.


----------



## Katie9 (Aug 19, 2018)

I never want this to happen again even if its a scratch. What if it was a child. They would have gotten knocked down and hurt. What if it was on the face. Etc

I want to understand what he was thinking. Why did he would do this. They clearly didnt provoke him since they were walking away from our house facing away from him.


----------



## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

Looks like a scratch. Mine has caused some major scratches from jumping when he was excited. Took a lot of training but he hasn't done it in some time now. (he is just over 2 yrs old) Scratches can absolutely bleed and look nasty...


----------



## czgsd (Jan 12, 2004)

Not that this is your major issue, but keeping your dog's nails trimmed can prevent this much of an injury from jumping on someone. Even if they're cosmetically acceptable right now, consider trimming them back more for this dog. Look for instructions on dremeling a dog's nails. You don't need another "bite" report.


----------



## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I disagree. That the scraping from the incisors. It's waaay too close together to be nails, unless this was a small dog. When I get scratched by my dog the nails marks easily a centimeter apart. 

This is a bite. An ineffective one. But a bite. 

Sorry you are dealing with this. Can you invest in an invisible fence? That way if your parents forget to close the gate you still have some sort of containment.


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

gsdsar said:


> I disagree. That the scraping from the incisors. It's waaay too close together to be nails, unless this was a small dog. When I get scratched by my dog the nails marks easily a centimeter apart.
> 
> This is a bite. An ineffective one. But a bite.
> 
> Sorry you are dealing with this. Can you invest in an invisible fence? That way if your parents forget to close the gate you still have some sort of containment.


Agree, it's a bite. In the one pic you can see the slight scraps from the lower incisors below the more pronounced marks caused by the uppers. There are 5 distinct "abrasions" all tightly and uniformly spaced, most paw scratches will leave 4 marks spaced further apart and in some instances a 5th mark from the dew claw further away.


----------



## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I was going to say the same, it's a shallow bite from the incisors. 

To prevent it, the dog must be contained no matter what. Then go from there. Build a new gate as Magwart suggested, or build a seperate kennel to house him when you can not be controlling him.

Provoked, eh, movement can "provoke" a dog, the provocation is in the eyes of the dog, not what humans see. Walking away could have triggered the nip, who really knows. Dogs are dogs, they don't think like we do. Because of that, it's up to us to manage their behavior. The law doesn't see it that way but when someone says "the dog bit unprovoked" well, the dog was prompted to bite by something, and thus provoked. Not saying it's justified but it is always precipitated by some trigger, however minor. 

Where are you located? A member on here may be able to recommend a skilled trainer to get you started in the right direction.


----------



## Katie9 (Aug 19, 2018)

Thanks guys. Whether or not this was a scratch or bite. Do you guys have any theories as to why he would have done that? It doesnt make sense at all that he would charge someone with no provocation. Someone who had their back turned away no less. Maybe he wasnt neutered properly, because he had crypto. We are going to get his hormones checked. What else would be important to check with the vet or talk to my trainer about? Any suggestions please.


----------



## Katie9 (Aug 19, 2018)

Im located in Toronto Canada. Guys i am heart broken. I love him so much. Anyone know how i can deal with this emotionally? Anyone been through this before?


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

My guess is lack of nerve. Had your neighbor turned to face your dog before the bite occurred your dog may have hit the brakes and barked from a safe distance. Poor nerve is common in gsds. They’re fearful and can overreact to non threatening stimulus, some may run and others bite.


----------



## Katie9 (Aug 19, 2018)

Nigel. I think you may be right that he has weak nerves. But how do we now deal with the weak nerves.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Katie9 said:


> Nigel. I think you may be right that he has weak nerves. But how do we now deal with the weak nerves.


You manage. Secure fences, secure gates, communicate with neighbors, utility people, mail carriers and anyone else that may be around your property. You work on rock solid and then some obedience. You ensure that if the dog is outside all gates and fence line have been checked and you crate the dog if there is even the slightest doubt that he may have an issue. 

Agility equipment seems to be a huge help in confidence building, and I like off trail hiking. Adventures in the bush fill a dogs need to be a dog and allow time for bonding without the city distractions. 
I muzzle Shadow on walks and anytime she is out and about in the city. Hiking I keep her on her long line so I can reel her in if need be. If she is calm, I let her drag it but she is never allowed the freedom to make poor decisions.


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Management and training. Keep him secure when he cannot be supervised using crates and a kennel run. A crate can help to keep visitors to your home safe as well as give him a place for his own sense of security. My insecure dog learned to love his and often just hung out in it to relax. A kennel will help keep him secure if you're having problems with ensuring that the gates are closed. I'd still look into finding a solutions to keep the gates shut as a secondary layer of security. Find a reputable trainer and work on his obedience, get it as rock solid as it can be. There are others on this forum in your area and may have some trainer suggestions.


----------



## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Katie9 said:


> Nigel. I think you may be right that he has weak nerves. But how do we now deal with the weak nerves.


 I just wanted to quote Wolfstraum from another thread- 

" All the training advice will help management, but the temperament is genetic - all you can do is manage and manipulate the dog in the environment, Good luck!"


----------



## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Re-reading of this thread I noticed that this person wasn't a next door neighbor, but some one a bit further down the block. That rules out territorial defense (unless he thinks he owns the entire block). It seems like he was out looking for trouble. Something moving away (back turned) may be related to prey or who knows. His idea of fun for some reason. Does it matter? Bottom line is you need to see that nothing anything like this happens again. In your initial post you don't want to muzzle your dog. Too bad. muzzle your dog. Contain your dog come heck or whatever. You may not have a choice in this matter.


----------



## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

One question that hasn't been brought up on behalf of this neighbor, was permission to post the pics given. It's obvious that you posted to help show the severity and get excellent advise. 

We often get wrapped up in trying to solve a problem and being as considerate as we can and fix it and sometimes we do things that will help but can also make things worse. If I were this neighbor, I would not be happy that my exposed back and part of the strap was posted even if my face wasn't.

My apologies if you got her permission, if not, I'm sure in this instance a Moderater can help either crop the pic or delete the pic.

It's just something to consider.


----------



## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

I'm kind of wondering if prey drive was triggered too. It's on the back - sometimes when people get scared by dogs coming at them, their first response is to tuck tail and run. If the dog is on edge, it can lead to the whole, "I need to chase", and after dogs capture something they've chased down, the next instinct is often to bite. These details can often be left out because the bite is the main event, not what caused it.

ETA: That being said, your dog now has a history. As a child, I was the third bite victim of a nervy GSD. I asked my brother's friend if I could pet it, and he let me - he never should have. I reach over the head to pet it as I did our own GSD mix, and as a result I made him nervous and he bit my elbow. I never reported it, and I told my mom not to report it because I knew the dog was going to get put down. But that would've been entirely preventable if his parents had never let that dog out with a child with little to no understanding of what could happen, and if the dog had always been equipped with a muzzle when out in public. It doesn't reduce quality of life when properly trained. But now you either manage your dogs life, or you gamble with it every time you don't properly manage the environment and the dog.


----------



## Katie9 (Aug 19, 2018)

Could a moderator please delete the pics. I am unable to edit the post.


----------



## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Katie9 said:


> Could a moderator please delete the pics. I am unable to edit the post.


I removed them for you.


----------



## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

I also wanted to mention that him not being neutered properly (what does that mean?) had nothing to do with this bite/scratch. A stable intact dog would never have done this. A properly neutered, nervy dog could absolutely do this. My point is, whether intact or neutered, it makes no difference. The problem is not his testicles.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

katdog5911 said:


> Looks like a scratch. Mine has caused some major scratches from jumping when he was excited. Took a lot of training but he hasn't done it in some time now. (he is just over 2 yrs old) Scratches can absolutely bleed and look nasty...


Is there a picture from this bite/scratch? Couldn't find it.


----------



## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

It was deleted, Wolfy.


----------



## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

I agree those were no doubt scratch marks, didn't look anything like a bite. I've had plenty of scratch marks draw blood (dogs playing in the pool that get overzealous!) Good news is your dog probably isn't aggressive... he may have just been very excited to meet your neighbor. Or could have been prey drive. Regardless, the damage is done and your neighbor thinks they were bit. A dog of that age and size really shouldn't be jumping on people, it's time to get enrolled in some classes and work on obedience, jumping up is not acceptable and no longer let him out of your sights or off leash as he has a label now for his own safety... I wouldn't be too hard on yourself or your dog, whats done is done, you can't change the past but you can work on the future. Hope things get better soon for you guys.


----------



## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

But there were 5 marks not 4. Could his dewclaw have scratched her too?


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I had a rescue who barked when a neighbor put a hand in his face. His tooth ripped her skin. He wasn’t biting, I was right there and his mouth was open. It was a straight line, no tooth marks. She told me it was fine, we paid her medical bills, then she went around and told everyone she got a vicious bite from our dog. I don’t worry about it with my current dogs, but I never stopped considering the possibility with that dog again around strangers. I was very careful to keep him from getting loose. He also did some intentional biting on other people which did not break the skin. Maybe those were nips.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Nurse Bishop said:


> But there were 5 marks not 4. Could his dewclaw have scratched her too?


Yes. Shadow gets me once in a while when her nails are long. She wraps her paws around me like a toddler. It hurts a lot! I think I would rather get bit, lol.


----------



## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Nurse Bishop said:


> But there were 5 marks not 4. Could his dewclaw have scratched her too?


Yes they use their dew claws to grip objects


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

5 marks doesn't point to a bite IMO. I would an expert take a look at it and get a written report in case you ever get into trouble at some point.
If he he "just" jumped on her, that makes it easier in the future. By the way; never, ever leave him in the yard alone, no matter how solid the fence (seems). I would get him a sturdy chain link kennel with a concrete floor and a roof. Lock it when you are gone or can't supervise him.
Things would be different if he had been a Golden Retriever but because of the breed, you need to be super alert and vigilant.


----------



## Katie9 (Aug 19, 2018)

Guys i believe that the marks was from his teeth. What gsdsar said about the marks being too close together makes sense. Our number one priority is to keep the neighbourhood safe and never allow this to happen again because we want to keep him in the family forever. We never want to risk losing him and having him put down. We ve agreed to voluntarily muzzle him in the yard and on walks (for now or maybe forever). We are putting up structures and talked to our trainer to prevent this from happening again and hoping our neighbours truly forgive us for this eventually ?


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

LuvShepherds said:


> His tooth ripped her skin. I was right there and his mouth was open. He also did some intentional biting on other people which did not break the skin. Maybe those were nips.


That points to biting to me. They don't nip, rip or whatever you call contact with teeth on skin, accidentally. They cause what they intent.
Check out the Ian Dunbar bite scale.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

If it doesn’t break the skin? I thought so too, so I never let him near strangers unless they followed our rules. As an example, my kids had a friend who worked for a vet and wanted to go to vet school. The dog never even came close to biting her because she knew how to behave around him. No sudden movements, no show of fear, lots of toys and treats. Then he was fine. If someone tried to grab at him, or was nervous and moved around a lot, he wasn’t.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

LuvShepherds said:


> If it doesn’t break the skin? I thought so too, so I never let him near strangers unless they followed our rules. As an example, my kids had a friend who worked for a vet and wanted to go to vet school. The dog never even came close to biting her because she knew how to behave around him. No sudden movements, no show of fear, lots of toys and treats. Then he was fine. If someone tried to grab at him, or was nervous and moved around a lot, he wasn’t.


Were you fostering him? If yes, what happened to him? If you kept him, I guess you managed him very well. Regardless of the temperament of everyone's dog, IMO we all should be super proactive in overseeing situations that can potentially turn ugly. And if they do, it is lightning fast. All GSDs are very powerful in their bodies and mouths. A GSD's bite is one of the strongest of all breeds. As an illustration of that, an instructor let an ancient toothless IPO dog bite on a decoy's sleeve (with my permission and while bracing myself). The pressure was impressive and it left a bruise on my arm.
Deja is a petite female, never shown aggression to anyone but she bites an adult Tom turkey neck in half in one bite. I always remind myself of that. You don't ever want to say, "(S)He never did that before".


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

First management. 

Next is leadership. Especially dogs with weak nerves, need consistent leadership. You might try NILIF. The thing is an insecure dog will be more secure if rules are clear and consistently enforced. We do not go out the front door without a leash, every single time. We do not move toward the door until we sit quietly to get the lead on, every single time. Nothing In Life Is Free, has a lot to it, and I do not use this, but many people learn how to structure functional leadership with dogs. 

You do need to lose your anthropomorphizing with this dog. He is NOT a slave. You ARE an owner, not a guardian, not a parent. You own the dog. It is an animal. To try to put human attributes onto the dog shows serious disrespect for the critter he is. And it can be dangerous. It can be confusing for the dog. Dogs are natural followers. They are content when they are following a strong leader. So you need to get your leadership in order. And I am not talking about alpha-crap. I am talking about realistic expectations, management, consistency, patience, not losing your temper. 

You love your dog and we get that. Love him for the dog he is. Manage him better. Learn to be a good leader. Train him and build the bond. Exercise him on lead. Exercise his mind and his body. 

Didn't see the photos so I have no thoughts on that, but chicken-bleep-biting is really a indicator of poor character. A dog that will run up and nip a retreating figure, but when faced will not. Your dog's temperament is what it is, he was born with his temperament. His character is a combination of temperament and experiences. There is some wiggle room/potential to improve a dog's character, but it is limited by the dog's temperament. It doesn't mean that the dog is useless, or not a good pet. It means that you have to be aware of what his weaknesses are, and you have to manage that. Think of it like having a kid whose intelligence is such that he can't succeed in college level courses, and maybe not even though high school. What do you do? I think you pay attention to the child's strengths and you try to cater to those to the extent that you can help him find his nitch. That is kind of what you have to do with this dog. You have to find things the dog can be successful with, and give him opportunities to do these things and be praised for doing them well. 

The accounts of the bite do not seem like this dog should be put down. Yes, you were at fault. Yes, you know now that he is capable of biting. Yes, you need to be a lot better about management with him. But he is not vicious. Keep working with your trainer and be honest about this incident with him/her.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

wolfy dog said:


> Were you fostering him? If yes, what happened to him? If you kept him, I guess you managed him very well. Regardless of the temperament of everyone's dog, IMO we all should be super proactive in overseeing situations that can potentially turn ugly. And if they do, it is lightning fast. All GSDs are very powerful in their bodies and mouths. A GSD's bite is one of the strongest of all breeds. As an illustration of that, an instructor let an ancient toothless IPO dog bite on a decoy's sleeve (with my permission and while bracing myself). The pressure was impressive and it left a bruise on my arm.
> Deja is a petite female, never shown aggression to anyone but she bites an adult Tom turkey neck in half in one bite. I always remind myself of that. You don't ever want to say, "(S)He never did that before".


I was fostering. He was very good with us and with other dogs. He stayed a month and then never left. I doubt anyone else would have taken the time and effort we did, so we decided not to give him up. He had been ignored in a yard for his entire young childhood. He didn’t even know he could not pee indoors. I gave him both structure and freedom. He was a bit nervy and had a spinning habit. It took years before he stopped. He couldn’t tolerate a crate, so I taught him to behave indoors uncrated. He could open gates and some doors, so he became 100% indoors. If he was outside, I was with him. He loved daycare, which is unusual. He was enormous, looked exactly like a Royalaire dog on their website. Now we are officially off subject.


----------

