# Working in Drive



## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Lately, meaning the last week or so, Archer has had zero interest in training. I can maaaybe get one or two tricks out of him before he wanders off in search of a toy. And forget trying to teach him anything new! He wants nothing to do with that. I have tried all kinds of treats, including all the ones that used to be high value to him. I make the sessions as fun as I can, keeping my voice upbeat and animated, having him do tricks he enjoys, throwing some play in with it. Nope. He just wants a toy and does not want to do any work. So I’ve been trying to use toys as the reward. However, he loses his mind when play or a toy is the prize. He whines, paces, won’t focus, and can’t even do commands he’s been doing without fail since he was 10 weeks old. The only two commands he can do when it comes to a toy are “out” and “stay.” That’s it. He often does a bunch of random things, hoping one of them is correct. It’s frustrating for both of us.

Can those much more experienced than I give me some tips on how to get him to work and focus in drive? I’m not sure how to teach him to calm down and think when in the face of a toy. If anyone can point me in the direction of some good books, I’d appreciate it!


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I had to switch to a back tie to use toys because mine just wanted to grab and run around with them. Before using a toy to train, teach a solid Out. When you say Out or Aus, he should spit out the toy. It sounds like you have the Out already. Never chase him with a toy. I looped a long line around a solid tree then attached the clip to his collar. I set up a Place marker (top of a plastic box) at the end of his reach. I was teaching a distance down. When I said Place which he knew, he lay down on the marker. He got a toy. The reason to back tie was so he could not reach me and so he stayed in one spot. If he ran anywhere else he couldn’t reach me or the toy. I only did it for ten minutes or less each time. Find a toy he loves. It’s best if he is obsessed about it. Gradually, I moved away so he could not reach me at all and said Place. He learned to lie down away from me. Before whenever I said Down, he crept toward me first.

To build drive when he is loose, you must have focus and a solid Out. I shake the toy and say Watch. When I have his full attention, he gets a quick tug on the toy, then and Out. In your case, train Watch for his full attention and quiet. From there, I train other things.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Pytheis said:


> Lately, meaning the last week or so, Archer has had zero interest in training. I can maaaybe get one or two tricks out of him before he wanders off in search of a toy. And forget trying to teach him anything new! He wants nothing to do with that. I have tried all kinds of treats, including all the ones that used to be high value to him. I make the sessions as fun as I can, keeping my voice upbeat and animated, having him do tricks he enjoys, throwing some play in with it. Nope. He just wants a toy and does not want to do any work. So I’ve been trying to use toys as the reward. However, he loses his mind when play or a toy is the prize. He whines, paces, won’t focus, and can’t even do commands he’s been doing without fail since he was 10 weeks old. The only two commands he can do when it comes to a toy are “out” and “stay.” That’s it. He often does a bunch of random things, hoping one of them is correct. It’s frustrating for both of us.
> 
> Can those much more experienced than I give me some tips on how to get him to work and focus in drive? I’m not sure how to teach him to calm down and think when in the face of a toy. If anyone can point me in the direction of some good books, I’d appreciate it!



How old is he now? When wanting to train for treats, put all toys away, maybe skip a meal and if needed keep a line on him so he can't run off. 

Now to address your actual question. When starting with toys, keep everything up and exciting. Usually when I start to introduce toys into my work it's to pick the drive up. I use food for precision, and toys for enthusiasm. First thing is teaching him how to think when the toy is present. So it may not be anything too exciting at first. A sit and eye contact with him quiet, then BAM reward. Then maybe a couple paces of heeling, then BAM reward. Make the toy should just be the vehicle for him to engage with you. So once he has it, play with him. When I first start toy sessions, they are fast paced, short and sweet. 

Here is a short video of my first toy obedience session with Winston. For whatever reason, I couldn't get him on treats, so I just went for the toy to get something out of him.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

When you say toy, what are you using? If you want to learn to train your dog in drive, you need the right toy a leash, and a prong collar. A ball on a string is one of the more common toys used to train a dog in drive and there are many different types of tugs for the same purpose. Your problem will be learning how to use the toy and manage the dog on the leash. If a dog gets into too high of a state of drive, he can't learn very well. That is why it is best to start pups out with food and then go to a toy. There are many ways to use a toy, but the most common is to hold the leash in one hand and a ball on a string in another and hold the string and show the dog the ball and when he tries to strike it, pull it away to one side. It would kind of look like pulling the cord to start a lawn mower, but standing more upright. You can turn as you pull/tease the dog. Give a few misses and then give a quick command such as sit. When you say sit, quickly raise the ball above and behind the dog's head. If he doesn't sit and knows the command, give him a pop on the leash to help him sit and bring him down in drive some. As soon as his butt hits the ground, give the release command and hold the ball out by the string and let him strike and grip the ball. Dogs that don't have a lot of drive will have some trouble gripping the ball on the first try. Play a little tug with him and then him win it and let go, but hold on to the leash. The next goal is to get him to want to engage with you by bringing the toy back to you and play the game again. You will have to teach him to out/let go of the ball while holding the string and you reward an out by commanding him to bite the ball as soon as he lets go. So you need a command for bite. This is something that is not really learned by reading about it. You need to have someone help you or at least, watch a video of it being done because there will many other things going on with your dog that a more experienced person can help you with and each dog is different.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I just saw mycobraracr's video after I posted and it is a good example of what I was trying to explain. He is using the ball on the string for focused heeling, but you can using for sits, downs, etc.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

The above post and video should be seen and put into practice by the many pet dog owners here.How to teach a GSD 101.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

mycobraracr said:


> How old is he now? When wanting to train for treats, put all toys away, maybe skip a meal and if needed keep a line on him so he can't run off.
> 
> Now to address your actual question. When starting with toys, keep everything up and exciting. Usually when I start to introduce toys into my work it's to pick the drive up. I use food for precision, and toys for enthusiasm. First thing is teaching him how to think when the toy is present. So it may not be anything too exciting at first. A sit and eye contact with him quiet, then BAM reward. Then maybe a couple paces of heeling, then BAM reward. Make the toy should just be the vehicle for him to engage with you. So once he has it, play with him. When I first start toy sessions, they are fast paced, short and sweet.
> 
> ...


He just turned 6 months old. I used to use his entire lunch (kibble) to work on training everyday, and he used to be enthusiastic and all about it. He's since stopped being willing to work enthusiastically for kibble, even when he's hungry, so I've switched over to other treats. When I start a training session, all toys get put away, but then all he does is look for a toy and act generally distracted, even on leash.

An example of how I've been attempting to get him to work for a toy is when we play fetch. I used to just let fetch be fetch, but since he stopped being interested in training sessions, I try to get him to sit, down, spin, touch, whatever before I throw the ball. IF he manages to realize that I want a sit, he'll go into a half sit, meaning he's basically hovering over the ground and isn't fully sitting. Same with down. If I move, say anything, practically even blink, he's instantly up out of the half sit or down because he expects me to throw the ball (which I NEVER do). I can't lure him into the position or give him a minor correction because then he just stands up, stares at me, and whines.

He is 100% solid with his "out" command and instantly lets go of things when I ask him to. He knows with fetch to grab the ball and bring it back to my hand before I throw it again. He just gets so excited for me to throw it that he can't listen. If I try to use a tug toy, he gets bored pretty quickly and just wants me to throw that. He has no interest in playing with toys without me and is constantly pushing into me to play, so that isn't an issue. Maybe I'm just going about it wrong and he's confused?


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Oh, I should mention that I have played with a flirt pole with him, and he's a little maniac! Definitely has great drive for that, but what's funny is that I can get a ton out of him (sit, down, stay, touch, spin, around, through, etc.) before releasing him to chase that, but he won't do the same thing for a ball or an actual tug. I just have to be really careful using a flirt pole with him because he goes after it so hard and I don't want him to hurt himself.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

Seems like you have something motivating to him. What's at the end of your flirt pole? Can you find something similar and use it as a tug and toss?


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Since you have conditioned him to expect to be rewarded by fetching a ball, a ball on a string would probably be better than using a tug. You would kind of be throwing the ball by teasing him with the ball on the string as in the video, yet he wouldn't get to bite (fetch) it until he displays the correct behavior. Only reward correct behavior. At first, you might just see if he will bite the ball without any obedience. Since the dog is from working lines, he should be able and is old enough to start raising the expectations with prong, but first I would get him very interested in the ball on a string. I would also stop throwing anything for him to fetch. You said all toys are put away when you start a training session. I would do the opposite and not let him have access to any toys except when training him on the ball on a string. If he starts to get bored and mouthy and destructive, pull out the ball on a string. Then try to be more structured with a prong and leash. If he knows how to bark on command, teach him to bark for the ball on the string to get the game started. For example, show him the ball, tell him to bark and if he barks, immediately make prey with the ball like in the video. Each dog is different. With some higher drive dogs, more misses build more drive. With dogs that don't have high prey drive, too many misses will lead to coming down in drive because he is not being reinforced enough. I would also do this in new, unfamiliar places. Dogs with good prey drive will not be affected by a new environment and dogs whose prey drive is not as high as you thought, will not play the game. Keep the sessions short and you can always end on teasing the dog up with misses and not letting him win the ball.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

mycobrarcr,
I am in no way being critical of your training. I'm just pointing out the different philosophies people have in training. You said this dog is from van Leeuwen lines, which are dryer meaning they don't have crazy drive for a toy, but have strong, forward aggression as adults. I know that **** van Leeuwen would never use a toy and wouldn't even start training a dog until he was somewhat mature. This is what works for him. I'm more in line with starting pups early because I think you can teach them how to learn at a very early age which has advantages, as long as they are taught correctly. It is similar to research that shows children can learn a new language much easier than an adult.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Chip Blasiole said:


> mycobrarcr,
> I am in no way being critical of your training. I'm just pointing out the different philosophies people have in training. You said this dog is from van Leeuwen lines, which are dryer meaning they don't have crazy drive for a toy, but have strong, forward aggression as adults. I know that **** van Leeuwen would never use a toy and wouldn't even start training a dog until he was somewhat mature. This is what works for him. I'm more in line with starting pups early because I think you can teach them how to learn at a very early age which has advantages, as long as they are taught correctly. It is similar to research that shows children can learn a new language much easier than an adult.



I agree. I know van Leeuwens don't start their dogs until a year plus. One of the reasons I got Winston is to see what I could do with him raising dogs the way I do, and to challenge myself a bit. He's been doing really well and is a little sponge. I've been doing mostly OB and tracking with him. Touched on some protection foundation, but not much of that yet. Waiting a couple/few more months before we get into that. Interestingly enough I got a second Dutchie out of the same lines. Kind of a long story, but he's 18mo and has nothing on him. Zero training. It's interesting to see how Cy and Winston learn. Winston at 5mo picks up things much faster than Cy at 18mo. I've only had Cy a week, so we are still very much in the bonding phase, but still. Cy's BRN#35006 if you want to look him up.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

That is interesting and sort of supports early training. I do think a it can be wise to go slowly with a dog with strong aggression like the lines you have because the aggression is there but they need the maturity to know what to do with it.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Since you have conditioned him to expect to be rewarded by fetching a ball, a ball on a string would probably be better than using a tug. You would kind of be throwing the ball by teasing him with the ball on the string as in the video, yet he wouldn't get to bite (fetch) it until he displays the correct behavior. Only reward correct behavior. At first, you might just see if he will bite the ball without any obedience. Since the dog is from working lines, he should be able and is old enough to start raising the expectations with prong, but first I would get him very interested in the ball on a string. I would also stop throwing anything for him to fetch. You said all toys are put away when you start a training session. I would do the opposite and not let him have access to any toys except when training him on the ball on a string. If he starts to get bored and mouthy and destructive, pull out the ball on a string. Then try to be more structured with a prong and leash. If he knows how to bark on command, teach him to bark for the ball on the string to get the game started. For example, show him the ball, tell him to bark and if he barks, immediately make prey with the ball like in the video. Each dog is different. With some higher drive dogs, more misses build more drive. With dogs that don't have high prey drive, too many misses will lead to coming down in drive because he is not being reinforced enough. I would also do this in new, unfamiliar places. Dogs with good prey drive will not be affected by a new environment and dogs whose prey drive is not as high as you thought, will not play the game. Keep the sessions short and you can always end on teasing the dog up with misses and not letting him win the ball.


Any recommendations for a good ball on a string? All the ones I’ve seen on Amazon don’t seem like they would hold up to a tenacious shepherd.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

@mycobraracr Great focus and heeling! Why do you lift him by the collar or tail? What is the purpose?


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

LuvShepherds said:


> @mycobraracr Great focus and heeling! Why do you lift him by the collar or tail? What is the purpose?



I lift him by the collar to get him to drop the ball. Basically making him think he's loosing it and to build his drive for it. 

I lift him by the tail and skin, to get him used to be manipulated. He's in a higher state of drive and he's play with "Dad", so he's comfortable. So by me touching him all over, picking him up, it helps get him used to it for when a decoy does it later on. Everything is conditioning him for something later. Better for him to see it when playing with me than get freaked out when a decoy does it to him. Normally I'd pick him all the way up, but he's teething and don't want to risk ripping out a tooth.

Edit: I was trying to find a video of me doing with Kimber when she was younger. Couldn't find video, but here is a picture of me doing it with her. 
Kimber Skin by Jeremy Friedman, on Flickr


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Oh cool! That makes a lot of sense. I like watching you work with them. Thank you for the videos.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Pytheis said:


> Any recommendations for a good ball on a string? All the ones I’ve seen on Amazon don’t seem like they would hold up to a tenacious shepherd.



Foam Ball with Leather Handle

Roni Ball with Leather Strap Handle


These are my dog's favorites. Will last well unless you let the dog take it and chew on it. But if you use it as a reward and then it comes back to you it will last. I believe I've heard that the foam ball is preferred for puppies because if you whack them with it by accident it wont hurt and turn them off to it. The roni type balls are really heavy and hard and would hurt if you bonk the dog with it.

I tie a knot in the leather handle or else I can't hang on to it.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I like the Gappay ball on a string in the larger size so that the ball won't get stuck in the dog's throat. You can Google them and find plenty of places that sell them.
https://www.hallmarkk9.com/gappayballonstring-large.aspx
These are made of fairly hard rubber, but not to hard. They last forever and little nubs that help the dog keep his grip when he strikes the ball.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

OP, just a thought, but you said this has only been an issue for like a week? That's not really a long term problem

What if you just let him goof off for a few days and see if he doesn't get bored and look to you to re-engage. If he is asking you to engage vs you pursuing him trying to get him to engage the dynamic might be might better?

Have you done nothing but the most basic like---he glances at you, you mark and start food chase? You're not asking anything of him basically free shaping engagement?


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> OP, just a thought, but you said this has only been an issue for like a week? That's not really a long term problem
> 
> What if you just let him goof off for a few days and see if he doesn't get bored and look to you to re-engage. If he is asking you to engage vs you pursuing him trying to get him to engage the dynamic might be might better?
> 
> Have you done nothing but the most basic like---he glances at you, you mark and start food chase? You're not asking anything of him basically free shaping engagement?


I just looked at my calendar, and it has been about two weeks of this now. Time went by fast! I haven't free shaped engagement in quite a while with him. I still have treats in various places around the house and will give him treats for behaviors I like, but I haven't handed him food just for engaging with me. Are you suggesting that might help? I can definitely go back to doing that.

Our training sessions usually consist of working on proofing things he already knows and attempting to learn some new tricks (we're working toward a Trick Dog title, just for fun!). For example, I'll ask him to sit, touch, spin, give him a treat, run a random direction, treat him when he gets to me, ask for a down immediately, treat him for that, run off again, etc. I try to make it as fun as possible, but he really just wants to play with toys. I haven't been able to find a way to teach new behaviors with a toy however. I usually try shaping with a toy because luring with one does not work, but he gets too wound up for it and doesn't seem to understand what behavior I'm actually marking and rewarding for since he's doing so many random things.

If I don't do training sessions with him, I find that he gets extremely restless and whines a lot when out of his crate. He'll also bring me toy after toy in an attempt to get me to play, even if we just played 20 minutes with the flirt pole or a good game of fetch. Playing with toys doesn't seem to tire him at all. If it weren't for his restlessness and general discontent, I would let him have some time off from training. It's a weird balance.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Pytheis said:


> I just looked at my calendar, and it has been about two weeks of this now. Time went by fast! I haven't free shaped engagement in quite a while with him. I still have treats in various places around the house and will give him treats for behaviors I like, but I haven't handed him food just for engaging with me. Are you suggesting that might help? I can definitely go back to doing that.
> 
> Our training sessions usually consist of working on proofing things he already knows and attempting to learn some new tricks (we're working toward a Trick Dog title, just for fun!). For example, I'll ask him to sit, touch, spin, give him a treat, run a random direction, treat him when he gets to me, ask for a down immediately, treat him for that, run off again, etc. I try to make it as fun as possible, but he really just wants to play with toys. I haven't been able to find a way to teach new behaviors with a toy however. I usually try shaping with a toy because luring with one does not work, but he gets too wound up for it and doesn't seem to understand what behavior I'm actually marking and rewarding for since he's doing so many random things.
> 
> If I don't do training sessions with him, I find that he gets extremely restless and whines a lot when out of his crate. He'll also bring me toy after toy in an attempt to get me to play, even if we just played 20 minutes with the flirt pole or a good game of fetch. Playing with toys doesn't seem to tire him at all. If it weren't for his restlessness and general discontent, I would let him have some time off from training. It's a weird balance.


Yeah that was my thought-- go back to totally basic nothing but engagement. Also I'd either work in a place where there are no toys or put all the toys away. This dog is more for toys than food, right? I can't work my dog with food if he has the ball on his brain either. i was told once to not try to go backwards---like once you've brought out the ball in a training session you can't always go back to food with my dog.

So if I want to work with food there is nothing to be had but food, because I don't want him thinking about the ball.

So that's one thing...get rid of everything but you and the food and work hungry, and yeah I'd probably try nothing but plain engagement because you can't do much if the dog won't engage and it sounds like he is kind of blah about it so that's a good place to start. I'd have to re read your first post, though.

What's his other exercise like....oh this is the one who has to run the gauntlet of horrible dogs to go for a walk, right? How's that going? What does he do for non training exercise?

So I either give the ball at the very end as the job well done reward or I will train with it throughout and no food.

But if I'm using food then no toys or thought of toys until we are done with the food part.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Yeah that was my thought-- go back to totally basic nothing but engagement. Also I'd either work in a place where there are no toys or put all the toys away. This dog is more for toys than food, right? I can't work my dog with food if he has the ball on his brain either. i was told once to not try to go backwards---like once you've brought out the ball in a training session you can't always go back to food with my dog.
> 
> So if I want to work with food there is nothing to be had but food, because I don't want him thinking about the ball.
> 
> ...


Yes, at the recommendation of a couple members, I've removed all toys and put them in a place he can't get to them. I never have toys in the area we're training in if I'm using food, but it usually doesn't matter. He's so toy obsessed that he _looks_ for toys, even if none are to be found.

This is the guy that had some horrible experiences in our neighborhood. At my breeder's recommendation and my own gut feeling, I stopped taking him for daily walks in our neighborhood. He doesn't seem to miss them much and it just wasn't worth the risk. Instead, we play fetch in the backyard, play with the flirt pole every now and then, go for hikes fairly regularly, and sometimes I drive to a nearby field/river to let him play off leash OR run the risk and walk through the neighborhood at off hours to get to that same field.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Keep in mind that pups go through maturity phases.. Drive phases too.. So he may be having hormones kicking in hard now that distract him from the focus he had earlier.. It should come back, especially if he has been taught to learn... Keep lessons short and engaging /exciting.. Nothing new until you see a steadiness.. Or randomly offer something new and see if he latches onto it... If so, you will know his phase has probably passed and you can back chain or clean up anything he got rusty on


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Well, my 2c is...the dog is restless, I'd want to take him for an offleash sniff walk somewhere more often than he has been. Seems to have a settling effect on dogs

Separately:

and you can't get him to focus or desire to work obedience with you for food. So I would take him out with high value food and see if you can get anywhere with a short engagement only session. If so, then start there and see if you could build desire to work for food.

Have you tried any ellis videos for training with food? I was able to increase my dog's desire to work for food a lot by changing the technique of how I was using food.


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## adora155 (Oct 16, 2019)

mycobraracr said:


> Here is a short video of my first toy obedience session with Winston. For whatever reason, I couldn't get him on treats, so I just went for the toy to get something out of him.
> https://youtu.be/vKysLh8wmFI


Awesome video! It's definitely very instructive to see this.


I have a slightly modified question about drive. While working with toys, Tofu he'll get frustrated that I'm not releasing him to get the toy and will then redirect his frustration on me and bite my arm and start pulling on sleeve while growling. Or other times, we'll play fetch; he'll go get it then drop it part-way back and run to grab my arm instead. Training advice that I've received is 1) work on impulse control by making him sit and throwing food in front (he ignores well until I give release command); 2) ignore/turn back = Tofu continues and circles around to bite calf and butt (and I *cannot ignore* the pain) 3) e-collar (I'm not experienced enough to attempt this). What am I doing wrong when playing? Am I asking for something from him (sit until released) that he's not ready yet to give when there's a toy involved? :frown2:



LuvShepherds said:


> I had to switch to a back tie to use toys...


Good advice. I'll try this to keep my arms intact!


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

adora155 said:


> Awesome video! It's definitely very instructive to see this.
> 
> 
> I have a slightly modified question about drive. While working with toys, Tofu he'll get frustrated that I'm not releasing him to get the toy and will then redirect his frustration on me and bite my arm and start pulling on sleeve while growling. Or other times, we'll play fetch; he'll go get it then drop it part-way back and run to grab my arm instead. Training advice that I've received is 1) work on impulse control by making him sit and throwing food in front (he ignores well until I give release command); 2) ignore/turn back = Tofu continues and circles around to bite calf and butt (and I *cannot ignore* the pain) 3) e-collar (I'm not experienced enough to attempt this). What am I doing wrong when playing? Am I asking for something from him (sit until released) that he's not ready yet to give when there's a toy involved? :frown2:
> ...



Well, my first thought is that biting you is more fun to him than the toy. Could be your reaction, could be that he's just not into the toy enough.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

adora155 said:


> ...
> Training advice that I've received is
> 
> 1) work on impulse control by making him sit and throwing food in front (he ignores well until I give release command);
> ...


My 2 cents. 

#1 is good advice, working on impulse control is always good! 

#2 is not! Don't allow your dog to do this EVER! Just don't allow it. 

What that means EXACTLY will vary by the dog you're working with. But turning your back or trying to ignore a dog that is biting you in any way is not effective EVER! Make him stop. For many dogs all it takes is a look and a commanding tone, some seem to require a squaring of the shoulders along with a very serious tone when telling them to stop. If neither of those are working for you, hire an experienced trainer to help. You're not trying to challenge the dog, or set up a confrontational dynamic. You ARE NOT ASKING though. 

Don't allow this to continue in any event, it won't get better, and it'll influence everything else that you do with the dog.

Leadership is about being in charge AND being benevolent, not overly demanding. Let dogs be dogs, but DEMAND a certain amount of respect for boundaries. Some things, like biting you when you are not okay with that, are non-negotiable. 

I can't count how many times people say, I puppy up with "x" as long as I could then lost my temper and screamed at him...and viola, the problem went away! The trick in training is to be adamant before you lose your temper. INSISTENT is preferable! Do it now!


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## adora155 (Oct 16, 2019)

tim_s_adams said:


> #2 is not! Don't allow your dog to do this EVER! Just don't allow it.
> 
> What that means EXACTLY will vary by the dog you're working with. But turning your back or trying to ignore a dog that is biting you in any way is not effective EVER! Make him stop. For many dogs all it takes is a look and a commanding tone, some seem to require a squaring of the shoulders along with a very serious tone when telling them to stop. If neither of those are working for you, hire an experienced trainer to help. You're not trying to challenge the dog, or set up a confrontational dynamic. You ARE NOT ASKING though.
> 
> ...


You have no idea how bad the trainers in my area are, all hung up on positive-only training. Advice #2 (to ignore) came from two trainers who I had hired! One of those trainers told me to wait out the biting then put my hand by its mouth and to reward if it doesn't bite. I lost all confidence in that trainer after such advice. 

The e-collar advice came from the last trainer I interviewed on the weekend to give a zap everytime he bites. He didn't wish to teach me to use a prong collar (my choice of equipment that I'd like to learn) because he's a compulsion trainer and says a prong is too harsh for my dog and he wanted to use a choke collar and muzzle. I'm not keen on his style and am still looking for a balanced trainer. 

But it's true that my relationship can be better with my dog. When I do toughen up, he sees it as a challenge and escalates. I agree that I need a trainer about this but haven't found the right fit ?


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## adora155 (Oct 16, 2019)

mycobraracr said:


> Well, my first thought is that biting you is more fun to him than the toy. Could be your reaction, could be that he's just not into the toy enough.


Good advice. I'll change to a toy on a flirt pole to give some distance between me and the toy. Maybe that can help?


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

adora155,
The goal is to build frustration in your dog because then you are building drive. You need to have the dog on a prong collar and a leash and correct him if he bites you. The other part is there is a skill set in knowing how to use a toy. I wouldn't suggest a flirt pole. A ball on a string would be better, but you have to know how to use them. It is sort of tease with a miss, tease, tease, sit/down/heel, etc. reward with a bite to the toy while you are holding it and then play some tug, out the dog, repeat. You can use the flirt pole simply to build drive and interest in a prey object with no obedience, but I would tie the dog out and again, there is a skill in using any training tool.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Here is a decent example of using a ball on a string for obedience other than just heeling. I would have done some things a little differently, but a picture is worth a thousand words.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Just to confuse people, there are pitfalls to this approach in training a dog for competition obedience. It is more ideal to have a dog with a genetically high level or prey/play drive. The problem with putting so much movement into a toy to build drive, is that when you fade the toy and actually trial, it is not uncommon for the dog to come down in drive quickly because they have become so dependent on a lot of prey movement with the toy. The same is true in protection sports where inexperienced decoys put a lot of prey movement in prey objects early on to get the pup or dog to bite the prey. They are essentially "begging" the dog to bite and this creates problems later because that is not the picture the dog will see in competition.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Chip Blasiole said:


> adora155,
> The goal is to build frustration in your dog because then you are building drive. You need to have the dog on a prong collar and a leash and correct him if he bites you. The other part is there is a skill set in knowing how to use a toy. I wouldn't suggest a flirt pole. A ball on a string would be better, but you have to know how to use them. It is sort of tease with a miss, tease, tease, sit/down/heel, etc. reward with a bite to the toy while you are holding it and then play some tug, out the dog, repeat. You can use the flirt pole simply to build drive and interest in a prey object with no obedience, but I would tie the dog out and again, there is a skill in using any training tool.


But should this person really be using frustration to build drive? This dog is just a pet with unresolved manners issues....


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

IMO, training in drive gives you more accurate, faster and more reliable obedience. But you need the right dog and have to know what you are doing. Initially she was saying someone told her, her dog was dominant because the dog waited four seconds to follow a command. I was just giving suggestions to get quicker obedience. Her dog looks pretty calm. Manners is anthropomorphizing. The dog either doesn't know certain commands, is being disobedient, hasn't been taught boundaries, or is slow to obey due to the way he has been trained with temperament being a factor.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Chip Blasiole said:


> IMO, training in drive gives you more accurate, faster and more reliable obedience. But you need the right dog and have to know what you are doing. Initially she was saying someone told her, her dog was dominant because the dog waited four seconds to follow a command. I was just giving suggestions to get quicker obedience. Her dog looks pretty calm. Manners is anthropomorphizing. The dog either doesn't know certain commands, is being disobedient, hasn't been taught boundaries, or is slow to obey due to the way he has been trained with temperament being a factor.


Okay... manners is anthropomorphizing? 

Dog hasn't been taught boundaries, same thing for crying out loud.

The dog should know not to use her as a chew toy. Call that whatever you want that isn't anthropomorphizing


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Manners has different definitions, but typically refers to customs, habits or a *person's* way of behaving toward other *people*. My point is that a dog doesn't need "manners" because dogs don't know what manners are. They simply need to know what behavior is acceptable and not acceptable to the handler. Manners infers politeness and a choice. Teaching that behaviors in a dog are unacceptable punishes the wrong choice and dogs are not polite or impolite, they are just being dogs.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Manners has different definitions, but typically refers to customs, habits or a *person's* way of behaving toward other *people*. My point is that a dog doesn't need "manners" because dogs don't know what manners are. They simply need to know what behavior is acceptable and not acceptable to the handler. Manners infers politeness and a choice. Teaching that behaviors in a dog are unacceptable punishes the wrong choice and dogs are not polite or impolite, they are just being dogs.


Okay well you are reading way more into it than I was. Ultimately we are saying the same thing.

This dog does not know chewing on the handler is unacceptable or does not care based on past experience.

I don't see how building frustration and building drive is going to help with that problem. That was the only thing I was trying to say.


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## adora155 (Oct 16, 2019)

Chip Blasiole said:


> ... they are just being dogs.


Yes, he's just being a puppy; and I'm just being a newbie owner. I definitely have a TON to learn about leadership, setting boundaries and giving properly timed corrections. I'm all ears (pun intended) for any advice from seasoned owners. We had a good obedience/play session this morning without any biting. I will try to implement the techniques in the ball+string video that you posted. 



Thecowboysgirl said:


> This dog is just a pet with unresolved manners issues....


Thanks for seeing him as a "good boy" who just needs better training by me 0


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Okay well you are reading way more into it than I was. Ultimately we are saying the same thing.
> 
> This dog does not know chewing on the handler is unacceptable or does not care based on past experience.
> 
> I don't see how building frustration and building drive is going to help with that problem. That was the only thing I was trying to say.


I think it is a balancing act and depends on your goals. I believe adora155 basically wants pet training, but there are some things from sport that can help while also creating new problems requiring more skill and experience. It is a process and she can experiment and pick and choose what helps and what doesn't.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

adora155 said:


> Yes, he's just being a puppy; and I'm just being a newbie owner. I definitely have a TON to learn about leadership, setting boundaries and giving properly timed corrections. I'm all ears (pun intended) for any advice from seasoned owners. We had a good obedience/play session this morning without any biting. I will try to implement the techniques in the ball+string video that you posted.
> 
> 
> Thanks for seeing him as a "good boy" who just needs better training by me 0


I have another question/ thought. If I recall that video was a lot of "misses", meaning the person is skilled at yanking that ball out just in the nick of time and getting the dog to pursue it.

Should this person be trying for misses? I feel like she should be trying to start with something like just get the dog to target and grab the ball and not the string or hand. Maintain until a release and target correctly. Do you think I'm way off?

Also, I maintain I don't think this person needs to be building frustration or drive and I wouldn't ever advise someone who sounds like this OP to be doing stuff like lifting the dog off the ball by the collar. It was explained as making the dog think he is losing the toy and want to really fight for it. In hindsight I think that video was posted for another person, not Adora?

Well this person has no dreams of bite sports unless I am mistaken? In my opinion this person needs to learns super simple stuff. How to out the dog off the ball or tug without conflict, and how to release to grab again and target the right thing to grab. 

Chip you said exactly what I was getting at--- 

"I believe adora155 basically wants pet training, but there are some things from sport that can help while also creating new problems requiring more skill and experience."

I dont see how building drive for a toy is going to help her dog understand not to chew on her. If anything it's going to get him over stimulated where she has more problems.

I think she needs to be doing way simpler stuff. And @adora155 any luck finding a decent dog trainer to work with who doesn't tell you your puppy is dominant?

Lastly @adora155, you said he is just a good boy who needs better training. I agree...but...don't cut him too much slack. He's an adolescent already right? He needs to learn to keep his mouth to himself. Don't make him too innocent and you too much to blame. He isn't being dominant but chewing on you is not okay and he needs to be told that on no uncertain terms. I forget how old he is but by his size in the video...my policy is "once you have a big boy body time to start having big boy manners" Oh yeah I am anthropomorphizing again. Whatever.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Pytheis said:


> Lately, meaning the last week or so, Archer has had zero interest in training. I can maaaybe get one or two tricks out of him before he wanders off in search of a toy. And forget trying to teach him anything new! He wants nothing to do with that. I have tried all kinds of treats, including all the ones that used to be high value to him. I make the sessions as fun as I can, keeping my voice upbeat and animated, having him do tricks he enjoys, throwing some play in with it. Nope. He just wants a toy and does not want to do any work. So I’ve been trying to use toys as the reward. However, he loses his mind when play or a toy is the prize. He whines, paces, won’t focus, and can’t even do commands he’s been doing without fail since he was 10 weeks old. The only two commands he can do when it comes to a toy are “out” and “stay.” That’s it. He often does a bunch of random things, hoping one of them is correct. It’s frustrating for both of us.
> 
> Can those much more experienced than I give me some tips on how to get him to work and focus in drive? I’m not sure how to teach him to calm down and think when in the face of a toy. If anyone can point me in the direction of some good books, I’d appreciate it!


Out and stay are basically what you need to teach him to cap that drive. Tug-out-pause(stay) bite on command. That pause is where you teach the focus and control by lengthening the time of control before the ok to bite. If he wants toys like you say, the flirt pole is useless at this point, probably a little counter productive to what you want. Something else that may help with him settling at home, I don't do any training or playing at home. I play with and train with mine is as many different places as possible, but at home its just relax and hang out. Training through play creates an expectation in them, that anticipation you're seeing with him. Thats fun at the park, but a pain at home.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Okay... manners is anthropomorphizing?


Yeah, I don't get that either.



Chip Blasiole said:


> Manners has different definitions, but typically refers to customs, habits or a *person's* way of behaving toward other *people*. My point is that a dog doesn't need "manners" because dogs don't know what manners are. They simply need to know what behavior is acceptable and not acceptable to the handler. Manners infers politeness and a choice. Teaching that behaviors in a dog are unacceptable punishes the wrong choice and dogs are not polite or impolite, they are just being dogs.


Why get all caught up in semantics? Just because the dictionary definition of the word refers to humans, that doesn't mean it's not also a good descriptor for polite social behavior by a dog, whatever each of us deems that to be - obeying the rules, behaving by the guidelines we establish, etc. 

If there's a better word, one that specifically refers to dogs and not humans, great, let's use that instead. I don't know what that word is though, and in the meantime I think most people will understand what's meant when someone talks about teaching their dog manners, even if the details vary. I teach my dogs to sit and wait until released while I set down their food bowl, to not grab toys or food out of my hand, to not dash the door when I open it. If I call those things "manners" that doesn't mean I think my dog is a person.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Puppy classes intentionally teach “house manners” and call it that. It’s an accepted term in puppy training. That is to distinguish those skills from obedience. So a dog in obedience class will learn Down and Stay, while in puppy class they will learn to lie quietly next to their owners at mealtime. It is essentially the same skill but in a useful household setting rather than on a training field.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Steve Strom said:


> Out and stay are basically what you need to teach him to cap that drive. Tug-out-pause(stay) bite on command. That pause is where you teach the focus and control by lengthening the time of control before the ok to bite. If he wants toys like you say, the flirt pole is useless at this point, probably a little counter productive to what you want. Something else that may help with him settling at home, I don't do any training or playing at home. I play with and train with mine is as many different places as possible, but at home its just relax and hang out. Training through play creates an expectation in them, that anticipation you're seeing with him. Thats fun at the park, but a pain at home.


That's a really good point. I have strict house rules-- basically inside I expect calm dogs. All balls are checked at the door because they're a little obsessive about them. They have a bunch of indoor toys that they are not obsessive about that live in the toy basket and they can have any time but no balls or tugs. 

Indoors basically no running, no rowdy play, and little lay down bitey face is okay. 

I do do some service dog training in the house but that's all mellow training and doesn't conflict with calm indoor house rules.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> That's a really good point. I have strict house rules-- basically inside I expect calm dogs. All balls are checked at the door because they're a little obsessive about them. They have a bunch of indoor toys that they are not obsessive about that live in the toy basket and they can have any time but no balls or tugs.
> 
> Indoors basically no running, no rowdy play, and little lay down bitey face is okay.
> 
> I do do some service dog training in the house but that's all mellow training and doesn't conflict with calm indoor house rules.


And that is the problem with drive. I spend a lot of time encouraging my dogs to be calm and mellow. I’ve worked in drive but they don’t need any encouragement. We started training in drive in a class of low drive dogs. Other than mine, the dogs never got excited about anything. So they learned how to build drive and I worked to bring my dog down to their high drive level, which was about half of his normal drive.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I have another question/ thought. If I recall that video was a lot of "misses", meaning the person is skilled at yanking that ball out just in the nick of time and getting the dog to pursue it.
> 
> Should this person be trying for misses? I feel like she should be trying to start with something like just get the dog to target and grab the ball and not the string or hand. Maintain until a release and target correctly. Do you think I'm way off?
> 
> Also, I maintain I don't think this person needs to be building frustration or drive and I wouldn't ever advise someone who sounds like this OP to be doing stuff like lifting the dog off the ball by the collar. It was explained as making the dog think he is losing the toy and want to really fight for it. In hindsight I think that video was posted for another person, not Adora155



I commented on the first page of this thread, if a dog doesn't have a lot of drive, when going to a ball on a string, the first thing is to teach the dog to grip the ball and hold on and play tug. Then you move on to misses. You don't have to lift the dog off the collar to teach the out. You can simply hold the string and wait the dog out. What is important, IMO, is to let the dog rebite the ball as soon as he outs, as a reward.
Regarding calmness, every dog is different. My dog was a destructive maniac as a pup. He would run full force and crash himself into me. I thought he would never stop biting and aggressively trying to correct the biting just made him more persistent. I could give many other examples. Now at almost 22 months of age, he is perfect in the house and doesn't even need to be crated. I would have never expected that, but fortunately he matured out of his craziness, yet maintains very good drive in training.
As far as semantics and manners, my point is that dogs simply need to learn what you told them to do when they are displaying certain behaviors, or there will be serious consequences. The degree of punishment depends on the dog's handler hardness. It is not so much about being nice as it is you need to do this because I told you to do it. Children are taught manners. Dogs are taught to be obedient. You are not concerned about the dog's feelings. Generally, you want to be fair, but there are times when you demand a behavior. Coddling a dog and treating him like a child just creates a whole different set of problems.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Manners and respect are pieces of different dogs temperament. Some dogs are sensitive, some aren't. Those are feelings that you have to have some concern about because they'll both determine whats coddling and whats not while you teach them to be obedient.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip Blasiole said:


> I commented on the first page of this thread, if a dog doesn't have a lot of drive, when going to a ball on a string, the first thing is to teach the dog to grip the ball and hold on and play tug. Then you move on to misses. You don't have to lift the dog off the collar to teach the out. You can simply hold the string and wait the dog out. What is important, IMO, is to let the dog rebite the ball as soon as he outs, as a reward.
> Regarding calmness, every dog is different. My dog was a destructive maniac as a pup. He would run full force and crash himself into me. I thought he would never stop biting and aggressively trying to correct the biting just made him more persistent. I could give many other examples. Now at almost 22 months of age, he is perfect in the house and doesn't even need to be crated. I would have never expected that, but fortunately he matured out of his craziness, yet maintains very good drive in training.
> As far as semantics and manners, my point is that dogs simply need to learn what you told them to do when they are displaying certain behaviors, or there will be serious consequences. The degree of punishment depends on the dog's handler hardness. It is not so much about being nice as it is you need to do this because I told you to do it. Children are taught manners. Dogs are taught to be obedient. You are not concerned about the dog's feelings. Generally, you want to be fair, but there are times when you demand a behavior. Coddling a dog and treating him like a child just creates a whole different set of problems.


Yes, you should be concerned about the dog's feelings. Why a dog is doing something can have a huge impact on training and corrections.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

adora155 said:


> Yes, he's just being a puppy; and I'm just being a newbie owner. I definitely have a TON to learn about leadership, setting boundaries and giving properly timed corrections. I'm all ears (pun intended) for any advice from seasoned owners. We had a good obedience/play session this morning without any biting. I will try to implement the techniques in the ball+string video that you posted.
> 
> 
> Thanks for seeing him as a "good boy" who just needs better training by me 0


I wouldn't get carried away with trying to frustrate him adora. Jeremy mentioned the biting because he liked how you reacted. Watching him with you, I'd bet it started with some frustration, with maybe a little confusion, a little release for him, then it could just become fun. Something to think about when you don't reward for what he thinks is correct, it can build plenty of frustration in some dogs. The double commands, the do overs, I don't think he's clear on when he's correct or not. Thats one of the things you can avoid by not chaining things together too quickly.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> That's a really good point. I have strict house rules-- basically inside I expect calm dogs. All balls are checked at the door because they're a little obsessive about them. They have a bunch of indoor toys that they are not obsessive about that live in the toy basket and they can have any time but no balls or tugs.
> 
> Indoors basically no running, no rowdy play, and little lay down bitey face is okay.
> 
> I do do some service dog training in the house but that's all mellow training and doesn't conflict with calm indoor house rules.


And thats basically what I mean. A clear difference between the two. Once you start training them with play, its generally going to over ride most everything else. The way they prefer the toy to food. I don't find it to be permanent, the preference always seems to be there, but the interaction of just doing something seems to balance out better, later.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> Manners and respect are pieces of different dogs temperament. Some dogs are sensitive, some aren't. Those are feelings that you have to have some concern about because they'll both determine whats coddling and whats not while you teach them to be obedient.


 I should have said you should not be concerned with "hurting" a dog's feelings in certain situations. I did say corrections should be appropriate for a dog's handler hardness. You can "hurt" some dog's feeling with a stern "no" and others need a sharp correction. In a natural setting, pack members are put in their place and parents do not coddle their offspring.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Yes, you should be concerned about the dog's feelings. Why a dog is doing something can have a huge impact on training and corrections.


 I agree that you need to determine if a dog understands a command and is being disobedient or still doesn't know what you are asking of him. Then, there are certain behaviors where it just doesn't matter because they are a potential danger to the dog and they need a firm correction and their feelings are not important.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Responding to PMs - Adora, your most recent video and posts and replies have been moved to a new thread here, to clear up confusion from Pytheis' thread. 

https://www.germanshepherds.com/for...58551-will-prong-help-redirection-biting.html 

- Admin


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Just a quick update:

Archer either needed some time off from training or a tiny bit of maturity, but he is now great about training in drive and working for a toy. Before he would get so excited for the ball that he couldn't listen and would simply offer a bunch of behaviors in the hope that one of them was what I was asking for. He was uninterested in food for training and was obsessed with playing with toys, and would even refuse to pay attention or do tricks, period.

Well, now he works beautifully for toys! His focus is amazing and he's extremely accurate. I took a couple weeks off from training and just let him play and be a puppy. I'm sure he needed that time off. He will be testing for his NTD ("Novice Trick Dog") title today with the reward solely being the ball.


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## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

Pytheis said:


> Just a quick update:
> 
> Archer either needed some time off from training or a tiny bit of maturity, but he is now great about training in drive and working for a toy. Before he would get so excited for the ball that he couldn't listen and would simply offer a bunch of behaviors in the hope that one of them was what I was asking for. He was uninterested in food for training and was obsessed with playing with toys, and would even refuse to pay attention or do tricks, period.
> 
> Well, now he works beautifully for toys! His focus is amazing and he's extremely accurate. I took a couple weeks off from training and just let him play and be a puppy. I'm sure he needed that time off. He will be testing for his NTD ("Novice Trick Dog") title today with the reward solely being the ball.


Congrats!

I’m glad things are working out now. My dog was the same way, it was more food till he got a bit older as his toy drive was over the top. Now his toy drive is perfect for sport training, 100% focus for long enough to teach exactly what I want then it’s play time. 

What you’re describing where they simply do multiple tricks hoping one is right is called “offering” it’s a good thing by the way! Cause it usually settles into what you want for training. 

I’ve said it many times on here but I’ll keep saying it, old school trainers put the dog in the kennel till he/she was 2-3 years old. Then they’d see what they had. I think you did the right thing & good luck with your trial!


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