# SD Breeders



## BehaviourNerdom (Oct 29, 2020)

Hi friends! I have a background in both animal and human behaviour (including training SDs), and one of the things I do as part of my current job as a free behaviour outreach professional is ethical breeder referral. I frequently get requests for GSD breeders and SD breeders, sometimes GSD breeders breeding for SD work (owner trained). While I do my best to encourage people to select a different breed for SD work (because statistics), some clients are very adamant. 

I looked back through this section of the forum and I didn't really see a recent common breeder recommendations thread, so I was hoping to start one. I know politics are always involved in breeder referral, and I understand that you may not be comfortable sharing names publicly (of the good and the bad), and therefore I'm open to receiving private messages too (I'm not sure that I can received private messages as a member with only a few posts, so we may need to get creative). I am also open to recommendations for breeders that just breed exceptionally stable and chill pet GSDs, as well as other "tough" (looking) breeds and mixes. The more details you can provide on breeders the better - such as if you've met SDs from them, got a dog from them, know the breeder personally, etc. To start off I will throw down some breeder names that I've received from elsewhere, as well as the general criteria I'm going by.

Some Breeders I've seen recommended:
-Blackthorn
-Carmspack
-Royalair (I know, lots of stories there...)
-Marcato
-Woodwolf
-Shield K9
-24K
-Shumaker Hills (Tervuren)

My basic criteria for breeders is:
-All OFA recommended clearances 
-a history of producing successful SDs
-a history of producing consistently calm dogs that thrive in complex environments, including urban apartments
-a history of healthy long-lived dogs
-anywhere in Europe or North America

Bonus points for:
-non-kennel environment
-the Breeder is a nice person
-Breeder is/was connected to a service dog agency
-Breeder has behaviour certification/degree
-gentle handling

Don't care about:
-the Standard
-registration
-purebred or mixed
-cost


----------



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Royalair advertises their dogs as 'old fashioned, straight-backed GSDs' Most of them are over the breed standard height, and weigh more than 100 lbs. Their dogs go back to Valiantdale (black and silver GSDs), also the original Shiloh shepherds, before the breed split off from the AKC. One of the foundation dogs for the Shilohs was this dog - .Super Sweet Sabrina Selah

She came from dogs bred by Don Baker. These dogs were often referred to as Texas Woollies, due to their large size and curly, wooly coats; and there were serious doubts as to their purity. I see the story that used to be on the Shiloh website about these dogs has been removed. I will PM it to you. Too bad there was no genetic testing back in those days!

In addition to black and silver dogs, there are whites, blues and livers in the pedigree.


----------



## peachygeorgia (Oct 5, 2021)

If you want to reccomend ethical breeders, you do have to worry about the standard and purity of the dogs you're referring, ethical breeders don't purposefully breed out of standard or mixed dogs, you want predictability and health, especially for SD prospects.

There's some people here with Carmspack dogs, very knowledgeable, hopefully they will talk to you. 

My old friend who's a trainer has a WLGSD from a good breeder, although I cant quite remember the name, ill see if I can ask her. She's currently training her in medical alert and mobility tasks and she's doing very well.


----------



## Carter Smith (Apr 29, 2016)

I have a Carmspack dog from Fraserglen, but I wouldn’t be the most knowledgeable on the forum or close to it.. shes 7 months old, seems to be stable, confident & clear headed.. not over the top in anything, however I wouldn’t pair her with the word chill.. she’s definitely a busy dog with lots of energy.. but very willing and trainable, hope you find the answers your looking for!


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I have a Carmspack dog and some experience with Carmen and a few of her dogs. The only way I would recommend one of their dogs for service work would be in a home with working line experience for task work. This is a working dog breeder that produces dogs with appropriate aggression for police/military work. They are generally pushy dogs, easy to train and biddable but they will run over you if you let them.

The right dog with an experienced handler could be a great team but it's definitely not the goal of her breeding program.


----------



## HollandN (Aug 12, 2020)

I would contact Christine she is knowledgeable and may give you some good suggestions if her dogs aren’t a fit


----------



## Buckelke (Sep 4, 2019)

If it were me, I would make up a 'suggestion' sheet with the things to look for in a potential service dog, perhaps even detail it for different types of service dogs. Rather than recommending specific breeders potential owners could look for a breeder that breed animals with the special qualities people are looking for.


----------



## BehaviourNerdom (Oct 29, 2020)

Buckelke said:


> If it were me, I would make up a 'suggestion' sheet with the things to look for in a potential service dog, perhaps even detail it for different types of service dogs. Rather than recommending specific breeders potential owners could look for a breeder that breed animals with the special qualities people are looking for.


Yes, good point, and I should have noted that in most of these cases I will be recommending breeders to specialized SD trainers. While handlers will be self-training, they usually do so through a (non scammy) SD Trainer. The latter will be involved in choosing the dog and will have criteria. I do not generally recommend breeders directly to Owners anymore, unless they have unique knowledge and skills. At this time it is difficult for me to find any GSD breeders breeding to SD criteria, and with health testing and good welfare for their breeding dogs.

My work has shown me that people, even knowledgeable ones, struggle to identify good breeding - emotions are high and authority can sway people. A long-term look at dogs produced, talking with Owners, Trainers across the world, etc lessens risk - this is part of that process


----------



## BehaviourNerdom (Oct 29, 2020)

HollandN said:


> I would contact Christine she is knowledgeable and may give you some good suggestions if her dogs aren’t a fit


Which one is Christine?


----------



## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

@BehaviourNerdom Look into Tre Goods program…


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Fodder said:


> @BehaviourNerdom Look into Tre Goods program…


@BehaviourNerdom Fodder is a SD trainer by trade.


----------



## Carter Smith (Apr 29, 2016)

@Fodder hey curious what traits you would look for in a gsd to be a SD? I assume all working line have strong natural GSD characteristics. When I spoke to Carmen she mentioned my pups sire or sires sire, 7 of the 8 littermates went onto to be SD, one working in a hospital every day for something I can’t remember. Just wondering how the aggression or protective instincts play out in these dogs doing that type of service work.


----------



## HollandN (Aug 12, 2020)

BehaviourNerdom said:


> Which one is Christine?


Sorry Blackthorne


----------



## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Carter Smith said:


> @Fodder hey curious what traits you would look for in a gsd to be a SD? I assume all working line have strong natural GSD characteristics. When I spoke to Carmen she mentioned my pups sire or sires sire, 7 of the 8 littermates went onto to be SD, one working in a hospital every day for something I can’t remember. Just wondering how the aggression or protective instincts play out in these dogs doing that type of service work.


service work in general is very subjective. i'd need to know what "that type of service work” meant in order to elaborate - many of the dogs i train may wash from my program but still succeed as a service dog in a different capacity with a different handler population.

i actually work for a guide dog school with our own breeding program of primarily labs and goldens. GSD began being phased out at the beginning of my career - although they're my breed of choice for my personal pets. but you're correct, their natural level of aggression and prey drive aren't conducive for work as a guide dogs, nor most service dog roles and for those that were released from the program, it was generally for one of those reasons. quite a bit of those traits get weeded out in the breeding, then refined through the strict protocols (training and socialization) that are followed during the first year and a half of their lives while with puppy raisers. when assessing a dog for our breeding colony - focus, biddability and environmental soundness are the highest ranking. once the puppies are born, they are all given a fair chance to become a guide as that's just the responsible thing to do. dogs that don't make it as guides are then donated to other service dog organizations. in the past, looking back at the pedigrees of some of the early foundation GSD stock - a dogs specific lines weren't considered - only the dog themselves, weighed against the criteria and goals of our organization. naturally, over 80yrs, even those goals and criteria have evolved.

so i say all that to say - i've never gone thru the process of sourcing a GSD puppy as a service dog.


----------



## Carter Smith (Apr 29, 2016)

Fodder said:


> service work in general is very subjective. i'd need to know what "that type" of service work meant in order to provide more info - many of the dogs i train may wash from my program but still succeed as a service dog in a different capacity with a different handler population.
> 
> i actually work for a guide dog school with our own breeding program of primarily labs and goldens. GSD began being phased out at the beginning of my career - although they're my breed of choice for my personal pets. but you're correct, their natural level of aggression and prey drive aren't conducive for work as a guide dogs, nor most service dog roles and for those that were released from the program, it was generally for one of those reasons. quite a bit of those traits get weeded out in the breeding, then refined through the strict protocols (training and socialization) that are followed during the first year and a half of their lives while with puppy raisers. when assessing a dog for our breeding colony - focus, biddability and environmental soundness are the highest ranking. once the puppies are born, they are all given a fair chance to become a guide as that's just the responsible thing to do. dogs that don't make it as guides are then donated to other service dog organizations. in the past, looking back at the pedigrees of some of the early foundation GSD stock - a dogs specific lines weren't considered - only the dog themselves, weighed against the criteria and goals of our organization. naturally, over 80yrs, even those goals and criteria have evolved.
> 
> so i say all that to say - i've never gone thru the process of sourcing a GSD puppy as a service dog.


Really cool.. have always admired service dogs. My goldens breeder has placed service dogs over the years, I imagine it’s quite a high standard for dog to reach. we had a puppy raiser (guide dogs) bring her dogs in to where I work from time to time over the years to, I was surprised how many didn’t make it, but to the untrained eye they seemed perfect.


----------



## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

I 100% trust and recommend Bill Kulla at Geistwasser kennels if you want a GSD for a service animal. 

Bill and Jen gave me my first service animal prospect puppy 11 years ago, and he only retired this year at 10 years of age. He's been a healthy, strong, athletic and highly intelligent dog his entire life. He is as stable as it gets, extremely biddable, work ethic like you wouldn't believe, and tolerates the stress of service work perfectly. He has had a very intensive, long career and has been _my_ perfect service animal. A brother from the same litter went on to be a service dog for a gentleman with Parkinsons disease. 

Hunter did guide work for my severe neurological disorder, and was cross-trained for my PTSD and other myriad of disabilities.

I've been waiting on my next service dog prospect puppy from Geistwasser kennels for the last few months, and I trust Bill's knowledge and skill in selecting the right puppy/temperament beyond a shadow of a doubt. He didn't find me a suitable match from the four boys in his last litter (there was a female, but I want a male) as they were more intense bitesports prospects. Their upcoming litter is the one he said will most likely have the perfect match for me.

Like I said at the beginning of my reply, I trust them more than anyone else to give me a stable, suitable prospect for service work.


----------

