# The right Breeder & Puppy Kindergarten Class



## Misty02 (Dec 27, 2019)

Good afternoon to all. I am new to the forum and interested in adding a GSD to our family. I’m a novice on the breed and have not owned a dog in over 15 years. Our previous pet was from the animal shelter and lived with us for 8+ years until he became ill. All members of the family have wanted another puppy since then; however, there were many things going on in the family and I would not make the jump until I knew I had the time to dedicate to raising a companion and new family member.

From what I have learned during research, I am interested in a working line assertive male puppy to become the next member of our growing family. I have three grown children, with 4 grandchildren to date, with more to come. All my children live within 10 miles of my house, which is the family’s gathering place most of the time. My grandchildren also spend numerous weekends with me and will have frequent interaction with the puppy.

The entire family super excited about the new addition and can’t wait until I find a suitable puppy to join the family.

The main part in finding the right puppy, for me, is first finding the right breeder. I have been doing a lot of research on my own for the past several months and believe to have found that person. My grown children wanted me to get second opinions and possibly contact other breeders as well. I have discussed this with the breeder I contacted, she is on board with the additional research. The more I interact with her, the more I like her!

We anticipate taking obedience classes with the puppy so we can learn how to train him properly, he learns to socialize with other dogs and get additional exercise. * I would also appreciate recommendations for a puppy kindergarten class in Miami, Florida.*

I am looking for a companion and family dog that my children and grandchildren will enjoy as much as I do. I am not looking for a protection dog, but protecting the family will be among the dog’s duty. While I am not interested in formal competition, we do wish to have the puppy attend CGC training and test. Minor class competition related to the training, that are fun for the GSD and us may be contemplated as well.

Is there additional information you would need to recommend breeders that breed the right puppy for our family? I am willing to take a few vacation days to go pick up the puppy so it doesn’t travel as cargo or suffers during the trip, so distance is not a deal breaker.

For the puppy kindergarten class I do need someone local in Miami as I will attend every training class the GSD attends so I can properly reinforce at home what was learned in class.

Thank you in advance for your feedback.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Misty02 said:


> , I am interested in a working line assertive male puppy
> 
> I am looking for a companion and family dog that my children and grandchildren will enjoy as much as I do.


Why? I'm not sure your description of "assertive male working line" fits with your dog experience and your wants you listed in a dog. Could you please further explain your thinking? 

Can I ask what breeder you are talking to? We can't really give a 2nd opinion if we don't know that.


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## Misty02 (Dec 27, 2019)

Jax08 said:


> Why? I'm not sure your description of "assertive male working line" fits with your dog experience and your wants you listed in a dog. Could you please further explain your thinking?
> 
> Can I ask what breeder you are talking to? We can't really give a 2nd opinion if we don't know that.


Thank you for your response, Jax08. From seeing how you broke it down, I see I should have probably used obedient in lieu of assertive.

For several months now I have been doing research on the breed and breeders. For me, one stood above others reviewed thus far, Celhaus German Shepherds. I have been talking and corresponding with Cel Hope. I feel extremely comfortable with her, the material on her site, materials she has provided and feedback from others that have worked with her. My grown children are also impressed with the research results, but still asked that I did a tad more research. She doesn’t have a puppy available at the moment for me (us) and additional research wouldn’t hurt. I did tell her what I was going to do, she too thought it was a good idea (which impressed me even more than I was already). Logically, we both want the same thing, she wants her puppies to go to homes they will fit in and we want a puppy that will fit in our home and with our family as well.

So far we have discussed getting a low/medium drive puppy that will be able to keep up with the family.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Just to piggyback on what Jax said, working lines want to work, hence the name. Do you want to work the dog? I wouldn’t call the training you’re looking to do work. I’d say you want a low drive dog, wouldn’t focus so much on “working lines”. But finding that low drive. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Your in Florida and the breeder is in Wyoming? You haven't met or seen her dogs? Who have you met face to face? Have you had a chance to see anyone's dogs?


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

I’m sorry but a GSD should not have low drive. Maybe you should consider a different breed.


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## Misty02 (Dec 27, 2019)

Nscullin said:


> Just to piggyback on what Jax said, working lines want to work, hence the name. Do you want to work the dog? I wouldn’t call the training you’re looking to do work. I’d say you want a low drive dog, wouldn’t focus so much on “working lines”. But finding that low drive.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I agree, Nscullin. The mention of the work line is mostly because I’m not interested in a show dog bread for looks. I’m interested in health and temperament and maintaining the original appearance. There will be some participation in competitions related to the obedience and training classes we may attend.


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## Misty02 (Dec 27, 2019)

Steve Strom said:


> Your in Florida and the breeder is in Wyoming? You haven't met or seen her dogs? Who have you met face to face? Have you had a chance to see anyone's dogs?


Hi Steve. You are correct. I have not personally met or seen her dogs. I have read from and seen pictures from others that have gotten their dogs from her. I’m going exclusively by recommendations, my conversations with her and other information gathered. I have not visited local breeders, and will gladly explore further recommendations received.


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## Misty02 (Dec 27, 2019)

BigOzzy2018 said:


> I’m sorry but a GSD should not have low drive. Maybe you should consider a different breed.


I am learning about the “drive”. Based on the activities my family will participate in with the GSD, she mentioned medium drive. I added the “low” in the low/medium comment. My son knows a Belgian Malinois breeder, while he does have nice dogs, I considered the breed’s drive to far exceed what would be a good fit for my family.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

An Assertive male dog is a dog I would not recommend to a inexperienced dog home of any breed. I am assuming your term assertive refers to dominant. The breed has a strong personal type to begin with. You will need to speak to breeders and ask if they have a pup in mind and or a breeding in mind that fits your needs. Drives do vary in one litter and there may be a pup for you. It important to relay to the breeder what you are seeking and meet the different dogs and breeders. German Shepherds in general are not low drive dogs and need mental and physical stimulation and can increase the amount of young dogs dumped in shelters- if that is what people believe.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

How did you find this breeder? Good for them for doing health testing, therapy dog certifications, nose work and agility titles are not breed worthy titles for me. There is very little about this breeder I like. Well, there's nothing about this breeder I like. 

I think you can do much better for the same price. 

You need a medium drive, well balanced dog, from dogs proven to be exactly that. My suggestion to you is to go visit some clubs and breeders in your area. I can suggest breeders that I know produce nice pets
(Sitz von der Hose in Marion NY, - I have a von der Hose dog. He's incredible. Two of his sisters are being bred. One is bred. An 11 yr old is training this dog in Schutzhund. The other will be bred when she comes in heat. 








Sitz von der Hose and Olgameister German Shepherd Dogs


Sitz von der Hose and Olgameister German Shepherd Dogs. နှစ်သက်သူ ၇၈၉ ဦး · ၈ ဦး ဒီအကြေင်းပြေနေသည်. Breeders and trainers of working line German Shepherd Dogs. Striving to produce healthy dogs,...




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Wolfstraum in PA - I know many Wolfstraum dogs. Lee can be contacted thru this page.
I feel safe recommending those two and know they will back their puppies 100% as well as being good at placing the right puppy in home.) 

but it's a good idea to find clubs and go watch the dogs. Find what you like and what you don't like. You can tell a lot about temperament at training and you will make contact to help you find a good breeder.









USCA Club Map - Google My Maps


Map of approximate locations of current Full Member USCA clubs in the US, updated Dec 2019.




www.google.com


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## Misty02 (Dec 27, 2019)

Jenny720 said:


> An Assertive male dog is a dog I would not recommend to a inexperienced dog home of any breed. I am assuming your term assertive refers to dominant. The breed has a strong personal type to begin with. You will need to speak to breeders and ask if they have a pup in mind and or a breeding in mind that fits your needs. Drives do vary in one litter and there may be a pup for you. It important to relay to the breeder what you are seeking and meet the different dogs and breeders. German Shepherds in general are not low drive dogs and need mental and physical stimulation and can increase the amount of young dogs dumped in shelters- if that is what people believe.


Hi Jenny. I used the incorrect term in the original post and later corrected it. I should have used “good temperament” and obedient. 

I am not in a rush and am willing to wait for the right fit. I have waited many years to commit to another dog because I know it is a lifetime commitment. I am also flexible with location of the breeder and willing to travel to pick up the new family addition to minimize trauma and discomfort for the puppy.

Our family dog will have continuous mental and physical stimulation from me and other family members, some of which are a lot more athletic than others.

I will not claim to be able to go, see a litter of puppies and from sight understand which will be the best puppy for my family. I trust a good breeder will be able to either make the recommendation or be frank and let me know there was no puppy in this litter that fit our home, it would be best to wait for the next. The right fit and a healthy puppy is more important.

I have three children, all raised under the same roof, by the same parents with the same rules; and only 2 years apart from the one younger to them; they couldn’t be more different if they tried. Each of them is wonderful in their own special way, but different from their siblings. Depending on what is needed, I know which of the three is best suited for the task at hand. No doubt something similar exist in the animal kingdom, I anticipate a good breeder will be able to guide us in the selection of the right puppy for our family. It may not necessarily be the right puppy for others, but we would be a better fit for that specific puppy.


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## Misty02 (Dec 27, 2019)

BigOzzy2018 said:


> I’m sorry but a GSD should not have low drive. Maybe you should consider a different breed.


My apologies, I missed your comment. Different people will be looking for different qualities in their puppy. Would all puppies in a litter have the same drive? What happens to the puppies that have a slight lower drive than what many others are looking for in the breed? Would they be completely undesirable or good enough for the right family? 

Asking honestly as the drive level for each individual puppy seems to be addressed by various breeders.


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## Misty02 (Dec 27, 2019)

Jax08 said:


> How did you find this breeder? Good for them for doing health testing, therapy dog certifications, nose work and agility titles are not breed worthy titles for me. There is very little about this breeder I like. Well, there's nothing about this breeder I like.
> 
> I think you can do much better for the same price.
> 
> ...


Thank you Jax08. I will do some research and reach out to both this weekend, time permitting.


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

Misty02 said:


> My apologies, I missed your comment. Different people will be looking for different qualities in their puppy. Would all puppies in a litter have the same drive? What happens to the puppies that have a slight lower drive than what many others are looking for in the breed? Would they be completely undesirable or good enough for the right family?
> 
> Asking honestly as the drive level for each individual puppy seems to be addressed by various breeders.


Yes some pups may not have the desired drive that are required for work or sport that the breeder strives for but they will still have drive that may be too much for a first time GSD owner. Heck, some of these lower drive pups may wake up at 6- 12 mo of age and become too much for the average pet home.

GSD were bred to herd all day long, have the drive to do this job is important. Sadly, you don’t see many herd anymore.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Misty02 said:


> My apologies, I missed your comment. Different people will be looking for different qualities in their puppy. Would all puppies in a litter have the same drive? What happens to the puppies that have a slight lower drive than what many others are looking for in the breed? Would they be completely undesirable or good enough for the right family?
> 
> Asking honestly as the drive level for each individual puppy seems to be addressed by various breeders.


Not everyone is looking for a sport dog in a litter. The ones with lower drives might the right ones for an active family. Maybe one has stellar hunt drive and it goes to SAR. No puppy is "undesirable". they all have qualities that make them the right dog for someone. To be frank - most breeders I know would rather their dogs go to pet homes. Sport homes wash puppies out and rehome them. Pet homes keep them. You can absolutely get a medium drive, balanced, dog. You've put in a lot of thought, have committed to training. There is no reason you can't be successful.


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## tc68 (May 31, 2006)

I hope you understand why most of us are a little hesitant in your desire for a working line GSD. We don't want to discourage you. We've just seen way too many people asking for help here in rehoming their dogs. So we want you to be sure what you are getting in terms of a working line shepherd. They're not easy dogs, at all. Just because GSDs are the 3rd most intelligent breed, doesn't mean they are easy dogs to raise. You mentioned Malinois...while working line GSDs are no Malinois, they are pretty close. GSD puppies, generally speaking, are very bitey. Are you prepared when your puppy bites your grandchildren and draws blood? These are strong powerful dogs. I'll be turning 50yo in a month and my dog will turn 2yo next week...he's so strong he's almost pulled me down a couple of times when deer have crossed our path. GSDs are in the herding group. Herding group dogs can work all day. Are you prepared to drain your dog's energy every day? These are a few questions you must think about. And by the way, show lines aren't easy dogs either. Anyway, I wish you luck and I hope you listen with an open mind to all the good advice given in here. We're not here to criticize your decision. We just want you to be aware of what you're getting with a working line GSD. Cheers!


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## Misty02 (Dec 27, 2019)

BigOzzy2018 said:


> Yes some pups may not have the desired drive that are required for work or sport that the breeder strives for but they will still have drive that may be too much for a first time GSD owner. Heck, some of these lower drive pups may wake up at 6- 12 mo of age and become too much for the average pet home.
> 
> GSD were bred to herd all day long, have the drive to do this job is important. Sadly, you don’t see many herd anymore.


How does one get to be a second time GSD owner without ever being a first time owner? 

My daughter in-law grew up with GSDs, 2 of them at one time. Their home life had a much lower pace than ours and there fewer family members to do things with the dog.

I’m not saying I have the perfect conditions for the GSC, but it’s definitely not the worse either.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Misty02 said:


> How does one get to be a second time GSD owner without ever being a first


BOOM. 

If you have the right breeder and are committed to training, you'll be fine.

Many of us start off with rescues and shelter dogs or back yard bred dogs who have poor nerves. Starting with a good breeder will make it so much easier for you.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

As far as the breeder you choose, many on this forum would hope for better titles. The schutzhund sport was invented as a breed test for GSDs so many would want at least an IGP1 on the breeding pair. I would think for your wishes, there would at least be obedience titles like BH or CD.

As far as drive is concerned, it is just as you believe. Even very sporty breeders don’t produce 100% sport dogs. Several of the dogs go to strictly pet homes.

That being said, the pet home dog will be no couch potato. My puppy was slated for the pet/service category. He is from one of these more sporty breeders and he was even called the calmest puppy she ever produced. He still requires a job (which he has at home). He is worked several times a day and we do classes and schutzhund club together. He’s my first GSD and I love him.

I think low/medium drive (for a GSD) is totally possible. One thing I don’t think you mentioned was threshold. My puppy has a very high threshold which basically means it takes a bit to get a rise out of him. So when my five year old acts like a nut, screaming and running through the house for some unknown reason, he’s relatively unaffected.

Good luck!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Misty02 said:


> How does one get to be a second time GSD owner without ever being a first time owner?
> 
> My daughter in-law grew up with GSDs, 2 of them at one time. Their home life had a much lower pace than ours and there fewer family members to do things with the dog.
> 
> I’m not saying I have the perfect conditions for the GSC, but it’s definitely not the worse either.


Anything I can do Misty, you can do. "Drive" in this general sense isn't difficult. Good nerves, confidence, that's what makes a dog easy to live with. There's differences in breeds, so there are certain things you'll do differently with a male German Shepherd then you'd do with a Pug, but if you've got a solid dog you'll probably enjoy having some drive to play with. Thats why you want to see in person what people are talking about when they talk about temperament. Two breeders can use the exact same terms to describe very different dogs.


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## Misty02 (Dec 27, 2019)

tc68 said:


> I hope you understand why most of us are a little hesitant in your desire for a working line GSD. We don't want to discourage you. We've just seen way too many people asking for help here in rehoming their dogs. So we want you to be sure what you are getting in terms of a working line shepherd. They're not easy dogs, at all. Just because GSDs are the 3rd most intelligent breed, doesn't mean they are easy dogs to raise. You mentioned Malinois...while working line GSDs are no Malinois, they are pretty close. GSD puppies, generally speaking, are very bitey. Are you prepared when your puppy bites your grandchildren and draws blood? These are strong powerful dogs. I'll be turning 50yo in a month and my dog will turn 2yo next week...he's so strong he's almost pulled me down a couple of times when deer have crossed our path. GSDs are in the herding group. Herding group dogs can work all day. Are you prepared to drain your dog's energy every day? These are a few questions you must think about. And by the way, show lines aren't easy dogs either. Anyway, I wish you luck and I hope you listen with an open mind to all the good advice given in here. We're not here to criticize your decision. We just want you to be aware of what you're getting with a working line GSD. Cheers!


Hi tc68, I actually want (and need) for you all to challenge my decision with questions, in doing so you may address something I had not considered. I don’t see it as discouragement at all. Assuming you bring up something I had not considered, it merely drives me to do the proper research and have additional discussions with the family to ensure the selected puppy is right for our family, and that our family is right for that puppy as well.

The dog we had well over a decade ago was part Dalmatian, part Pointer, part many other things and full bat crazy. My husband got him from the pound thus no history on the dog, its health, parents or anything else. He grew up to be a very large and agile dog (70+ lbs). Even the Vet said that dog was nuts. Nonetheless, he was part of our family and lived with us for 8 years until he became ill and passed.

We couldn’t go anywhere with the dog, but he was excellent while at home with the family and was loved until his last day. I can tell you, in spite his other issues, I had absolutely no doubt he would have protected our children until his last breath. I doubt many could ask for more, even though having a well behaved and obedient dog would be the ultimate goal for most.

Distractions in Miami will consist of vehicles, children, other dogs and the two legged kind. Once we made the decision to get a GSD we understood this was a powerful animal that would need extensive obedience training and a mentally strong non-permissive owner that would baby the puppy and have him grow into a nightmare. 

As my children have become parents I have explained to them that we don’t raise children for ourselves. We raise children for others so they can thrive in the society the live in, so they can grow to be happy and productive adults; my sentiments in raising an animal are no different. I never found the need to hit my children, my tone of voice (no screaming, but firm) was sufficient to instill (unfounded) fear. They knew that “no” meant no, even when it was inconvenient for me. 

I know I have the right temperament for a stubborn human/animal. For the very brief period we considered the Malinois, we discussed conditioning our nice size backyard into an area where the dog can get additional physical challenges to assist in draining his daily needs. I am still considering doing the same thing for the GSD. With me, it will be walks, training classes, and some competitions related to the classes taken. With my children and grandchildren there will be additional physical activities.

My daughter’s husband has a mild allergy to dogs, although he can have limited exposure after taking Claritin. Her children adore dogs and can’t wait for me to get one so they can play and exercise with the dog. Her girls are home-schooled and training with the dog will be considered part of the PE classes. 

The problem in our family will not be who will exercise with the dog, it would be more scheduling to make sure everyone gets equal time. We are not even close to having the puppy and everyone is putting their $0.02 cents in on what they want to do with him.


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## Misty02 (Dec 27, 2019)

Jax08 said:


> BOOM.
> 
> If you have the right breeder and are committed to training, you'll be fine.
> 
> Many of us start off with rescues and shelter dogs or back yard bred dogs who have poor nerves. Starting with a good breeder will make it so much easier for you.


Years ago we did have a dog from the shelter. While he was, in his own way, a valuable member of the family, he was a blind acquisition without even knowing the mixture of breeds involved or temperament. This time around, I hope things will be a tad different in that aspect.


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## Misty02 (Dec 27, 2019)

CeraDean said:


> As far as the breeder you choose, many on this forum would hope for better titles. The schutzhund sport was invented as a breed test for GSDs so many would want at least an IGP1 on the breeding pair. I would think for your wishes, there would at least be obedience titles like BH or CD.
> 
> As far as drive is concerned, it is just as you believe. Even very sporty breeders don’t produce 100% sport dogs. Several of the dogs go to strictly pet homes.
> 
> ...


Thank you, CeraDean. This is valuable information; I did not know about the titles, I will add that to my research going forward.

What kind of job do you have for the dog at home? I am very interested in learning more about that. I definitely want to join classes and a club if that is the best way to go.

Another thing I didn’t know about was the threshold. I have a fun loving family (kind of crazy by the standard of some), we pretty much travel and do most things together (they fondly call it a pack). Three of my grandchildren are from my eldest (daughter), the oldest boy has a 1 1/2 little girl and is planning for a second child. The youngest (boy) is getting married this year. So yes, a high threshold would also be desired for our family.

I just added the two things you mentioned to my spreadsheet to ensure they are fully discussed with the breeder. Thank you!


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## Misty02 (Dec 27, 2019)

Steve Strom said:


> Anything I can do Misty, you can do. "Drive" in this general sense isn't difficult. Good nerves, confidence, that's what makes a dog easy to live with. There's differences in breeds, so there are certain things you'll do differently with a male German Shepherd then you'd do with a Pug, but if you've got a solid dog you'll probably enjoy having some drive to play with. Thats why you want to see in person what people are talking about when they talk about temperament. Two breeders can use the exact same terms to describe very different dogs.


Thank you Steve. That is where I need the right breeder, they know more about the puppies than I do and pray they can guide me in making the right choice. Meeting the puppies is nice, but I lack the knowledge to determine if that cute puppy I’m looking at will actually be the best for us (or us for him). It would not be as difficult to identify what we don't want from looking at them, but I don't believe it would be as easy to determine if the puppy has the potential to meet what we do want.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Misty02 said:


> Thank you Steve. That is where I need the right breeder, they know more about the puppies than I do and pray they can guide me in making the right choice. Meeting the puppies is nice, but I lack the knowledge to determine if that cute puppy I’m looking at will actually be the best for us (or us for him). It would not be as difficult to identify what we don't want from looking at them, but I don't believe it would be as easy to determine if the puppy has the potential to meet what we do want.


Ideally you'll be able to see not only the breeding dogs, but some others of different ages. If you watch them doing things with the idea of looking for similarities with them, you'll be able to find consistencies in them. That along with what you're being told, gives you an idea what to expect and also what exactly the differences could be as far as lower drive, or assertiveness, all those things and how they show over time. When you meet the puppies, all I look at is how confident and happy they are. How outgoing and curious about everything they are, then the knowledge of the breeder and what I've seen with their previous dogs gives me a baseline of what I'm getting, I hand over the cash, and tah dah! I'm a German Shepherd owner.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

Misty02 said:


> Thank you, CeraDean. This is valuable information; I did not know about the titles, I will add that to my research going forward.
> 
> What kind of job do you have for the dog at home? I am very interested in learning more about that. I definitely want to join classes and a club if that is the best way to go.
> 
> ...


My dog is service training for a home schooled boy. He spends a good portion of every day working towards that goal, which mostly involves a lot of patience.

I’m not an expert but I am trying to get a very good foundation on my GSD. He’s only 5 months old so we do a lot together. In general for me, classes are nice for consistent exposure. A schutzhund club is nice because the people there are very experienced with the breed. Both keep me honest and make me do my homework. ?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Misty02 said:


> It would not be as difficult to identify what we don't want from looking at them, but I don't believe it would be as easy to determine if the puppy has the potential to meet what we do want.


I don't pick my puppy. I hand over cash and hold out my hands. The breeder knows the puppies better than anyone. Let them pick your puppy for you.


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## Misty02 (Dec 27, 2019)

Steve Strom said:


> Ideally you'll be able to see not only the breeding dogs, but some others of different ages. If you watch them doing things with the idea of looking for similarities with them, you'll be able to find consistencies in them. That along with what you're being told, gives you an idea what to expect and also what exactly the differences could be as far as lower drive, or assertiveness, all those things and how they show over time. When you meet the puppies, all I look at is how confident and happy they are. How outgoing and curious about everything they are, then the knowledge of the breeder and what I've seen with their previous dogs gives me a baseline of what I'm getting, I hand over the cash, and tah dah! I'm a German Shepherd owner.





CeraDean said:


> My dog is service training for a home schooled boy. He spends a good portion of every day working towards that goal, which mostly involves a lot of patience.
> 
> I’m not an expert but I am trying to get a very good foundation on my GSD. He’s only 5 months old so we do a lot together. In general for me, classes are nice for consistent exposure. A schutzhund club is nice because the people there are very experienced with the breed. Both keep me honest and make me do my homework. ?


I’ve written to the Miami USCA Club for a list of events we can attend and watch. From this forum alone I have done additional research based on comments received. 

This particular search was inspired by CeraDean, thank you! Some of the jobs mentioned are adorable and seem like great fun for dog and me. I will continue to search and get more ideas of jobs that our dog can do around the house once they have a better grasp of the training basics.

17 Stimulating Jobs For Your Dog
10 Jobs For Working Breed Dogs Even If You Don't Live On A Farm


This DYI Agility course is awesome too. Different sections to be set up based on Vet recommendation as to what is appropriate for the age of the puppy. My granddaughter already has the play tunnels. Thankfully I have two boys that like making and building things, they’ll love making something like this. Canine Sports: How to Build a Backyard Agility Course


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## CC27 (Nov 3, 2019)

Sounds like a well bred west german showline (WGSL) german shepherd might be a better fit for you family. I've also been doing a lot of research about getting my first GSD, and I feel much more confident about handling a WGSL as a companion animal and being able to meet its exercise and mental stimulation needs than I would with a working line dog (note that my partner and I are in our 20s, very active, and the dog will be in a stimulating environment all day, and I still think a working line dog might be a lot for us, especially as first time GSD owners). 

That being said, I've met a spoken with a number of breeders, both working line (WL) and WGSL, and I would have considered getting a 'lower drive' WL from a couple breeders - but even then from the dogs I met of both types it was apparent to me that overall working lines generally have more drive/energy and will be more of a challenge (possibly problem) in a laid back family home like yours where the dog will not have a real job to do and you may struggle to provide enough exercise (do you and your partner both work?).

There are some fair criticisms of show line dogs, but overall I've found many WGSL breeders do not just 'breed for looks' but are passionate about breeding dogs that meet the breed standard, showing proper nerve, drive, structure and temperaments. I went with a WGSL breeder who works her dogs, and with many achievements in and out of the show ring. I had great phone conversations with her, and then met her and her dogs in person and was extremely impressed with their temperaments (gorgeous dogs too).

Finding a good breeder is difficult. People can have nice websites and say nice things, but until you meet them and their dogs in person you won't really know what the breeder, their dogs, and their kennel are truly like. For that reason I'd recommend trying to find breeders within driving distance. If you can't then this forum is a good place to look for recommendations and first hand experience with various breeders (I got suggestions here, and went and visited some of the kennels, and the recommendations proved to be good). Unfortunately all the breeders I looked at are more West Coast so not much help for you.

There are articles here about what a good breeder looks like on this forum. IMO musts for a GSD breeder are having all their breeding dogs that are titled in Schutzhund, have good OFA or SV hip/elbow ratings, and are tested clear of DM. Breeders who are producing the best dogs are passionate about the breed and improving it, and show that by competing with their dogs. They should welcome kennel visits, spend a lot of time socializing puppies in their home, and have no more than 6 litters a year perhaps (personal preference, but I think its safe to say any more than that the breeder either can't spend enough time with each litter, or its a commercial operation and generally more focused on producing puppies and making money than improving the breed).

These are just my opinions, and some will disagree with me, but that's my takeaway after being in your shoes and doing months of researching, talking with owners and breeders, and visiting kennels.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Jax08 said:


> How did you find this breeder? Good for them for doing health testing, therapy dog certifications, nose work and agility titles are not breed worthy titles for me. There is very little about this breeder I like. Well, there's nothing about this breeder I like.


German shepherds are supposed to be a jack of all trade dogs aren't they? People keep suggesting dogs only titled in schutzhund and such but so many of those dogs are becoming sport lines not working lines. Amped up prey drive and other traits that aren't desirable for all owners(There is a difference between not all people should own german shepherds and that only the elite can handle them.) So many washed out titled WGSL from germany come over to be used as studs for byb bred dogs. A title is good but honestly I don't think anymore it's the end all breed test for the breed because people are taking it to the same extremes like showline breeders take conformation.

I could easily say that any title that doesn't have to do with herding isn't a breed worthy title for a german shepherd. That is obviously not true but it could be argued. What you consider breed worthy isn't what everybody else has to be considered as breed worthy. I think service dog work is a noble goal for a shepherd, from the true breed description it makes sense they'd be good at it. But people discredit lines that don't title in schutzhund but produce good solid dogs.

I'm also near Wyoming and if it's anything like Montana just getting any sort of title on your dog is going to be difficult. The closest Schutzhund club to me was 4 hours away on the interstate, that's going 80mph the entire way. There aren't even any dog trainers in either of the towns I grew up in. (As on their website just the agility training is 3.5 hours away from them, used to be 1.5 hours)

Reading through the website it sounds like the OP could do far worse. They're honest about health issues that have occurred in their lines, the steps they took to fix that, and they work to breed healthy dogs. That's better than many many breeders in the US. They worked to title their dogs in the avenues realistically available to them based on where they're located. Based on what the OP is looking for honestly this breeder doesn't seem like a bad thing. 

This person wants a dog who will be alright in their what sounds like a very hectic and busy lifestyle. With these dogs working around children and going to nursing homes and college campuses as therapy dogs they should be plenty stable enough to live happily in their household. 

To the OP you definitely want to be careful with who you choose. There are a lot of unstable and unhealthy dogs in the breed and many breeders breeding them. But there is a strong bias and debate on working line vs. showlines vs. anything else. Many people are sticklers that this one thing makes working line dogs and other such things. There are some good dogs of all lines the trick is finding breeders who are balanced and don't swing to the extremes. There's great advice here but keep in mind there is a lot of different thoughts on what a german shepherd should be. 

These dogs may also be more open to having more than one handler and be to doing fun activities with the whole family. Keep in mind german shepherds and many dogs don't always enjoy being bounced around training wise. If they're raised with it maybe it'll be there normal but I know many dogs that would not enjoy the training lifestyle you're describing. 

It sounds like they're all excited as they should be but just be careful of too much too fast. Give the pup some time to settle in. Training is important but so is letting the puppy be a puppy. Definitely make sure everybody is onboard and on the same page with training and perhaps get some good foundation training on him first before too much flooding. As a young pup he'll probably have a grand time playing with the grand children, and I've noticed especially younger children can be enamoured just with a dog that sits and waits before it's allowed to chase the ball. If you have a big enough area hide and seek can be a very fun one to play. Have the kids hide and then have the pup go and find them. but that just depends on their age.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

@Kazel Good Morning to you too. My words make it clear that it was MY opinion. "for me" "nothing I like".

"German shepherds are supposed to be a jack of all trade dogs aren't they? People keep suggesting dogs only titled in schutzhund and such but so many of those dogs are becoming sport lines not working lines. Amped up prey drive and other traits that aren't desirable for all owners(There is a difference between not all people should own german shepherds and that only the elite can handle them.) "

Nowhere did I imply any of this. I have repeatedly said she can find a medium drive GSD. My boy is a medium drive dog and he's great at sport and a great overall dog who comes dogs competing at high levels of sport. I did not suggest breeders to her that have "amped up prey" The breeders I suggested are breeding "jack of all trade dogs".

You are welcome to your opinion but don't quote and attack me over things I never said or implied.

Now, the reason I don't like them has more to do than what titles they have and I'm not going to start a long attack on a breeder but I will say this Therapy dog is NOT a breed worthy title to maintain the German Shepherd Breed. And I will stand by that opinion All. Day. Long.

ETA: I'm not going to get into a discussion on what I deem breed worthy, working lines and titles. I gave my opinion on the breeder based on the website information. This is all off topic and I'm not playing past this post defending myself.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

@Misty02 That makes much more sense in regards to assertive. I have not read all the threads and saw you did mention that in a previous thread. Most important meet the dogs - titles are great but defiantly not a tell all. I have met dogs ipo titles I would not wanted. And I have met ones I would want in a heartbeat. I’m sure would be the same with other titles. What impressed most was in looking and why we got max police actually used the breeders dogs for cadaver work. I also loved to meet the entire family grandsires, grandmas , cousins etc. same with Luna. Seeing dogs in uncontrolled situations would be something you may want to look at with real young kids. I can see how therapy work is only a plus also. If you are lookin into service or therapy work so many people on Instagram you can reach out to see if they are familiar with the breeder you are looking at.
I have kids , nephews who are toddlers. and some they see on occassion. The dogs enjoy the commotion and just not tolerate it but enjoy it and also the kids friends. I do not have to lock my dogs up for family parties which is what I wanted but if I had to so be it. Luna will be going out with my daughter when she ventures out to drive to places if at night. We enjoy many outings. I always like and will get a dog with natural protective instincts and Getting the right match is priceless. Have fun in your search and don’t discount other lines I assure you there are great dogs in every line. I have not seen the breeder you recommended. Easy to miss things with this new format and on the phone. For exercise many different places , noseworks , trailing,Learning new things , herding and do it yourself agility with equipment in the backyard and also i Always like natural equipment on outings. Going out with the kids and dogs is a time saver and gets everyone tired. Who knows where your new pup will lead you something adventurous for sure though!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I think if you find a reputable working line breeder (or several), and explain exactly what you're looking for you will not have any trouble getting a suitable puppy for your situation. When I've contacted breeders I always provide a detailed description of what traits I'm looking for and which I want to avoid, I explain my prior experience with GSDs (we've had them since 1986 and are on #6), what my plans are for the puppy and what our lifestyle is like. The more information you provide, the better. As others have mentioned, there is variety in a litter - just like all of your children are unique individuals, so will the puppies be. People's requirements are different and the perfect puppy for someone else may be completely wrong for you. The puppy that's exactly what you want may be the opposite of what someone else is looking for. 

Higher thresholds, medium drive, an excellent off switch, a dog you can take anywhere, happy, confident, and outgoing, all of those are traits that would make an excellent family dog. I got my most recent puppy from Colorado; I'm in the San Francisco Bay Area. I had never met the breeder, I heard about the litter from a friend of a friend who co-owns the sire. At the time, I had had to retire my girl from flyball due to DM and we lost her about a month after bringing Cava home. I wanted a puppy with the drive to compete in a sport, but it was also very important to me to have a "take anywhere" dog. Training and competing are a relatively small part of our lives and I wanted a dog that would also be a great pet. Halo, my prior flyball dog, was described by her breeder as being suitable for a working or active pet home and she turned out to be exactly that. We hiked, she raced in flyball for 5 years, we did some dock diving for fun, we went to the park and chucked balls for her to chase and to swim. She would have been perfectly fine just being an active pet but it was clear early on that she would enjoy a sport so I found a class, joined a flyball club, and started racing. 

I relied a lot on Cava's breeder's description of her dam, who was everything she wanted and the reason for the breeding - she was looking for her next working prospect. Elka is super athletic, the fastest GSD she's ever seen, and social off the field. A lot of people prefer a more aloof dog, but all of our GSDs have been very social and that's what I prefer. Cava was described as spunky, happy, and bubbly, and she totally is. She is sweet and cheerful, a bright presence in our house, with plenty of drive for flyball. I wanted a dog that's easily engaged, with a strong willingness to work for me. She's that too. And we do indeed take her everywhere. She's been to several restaurants with outdoor seating dozens of times, she's been to breweries, wineries, and she's been to a major music festival in Golden Gate Park in SF twice. This year, the attendance was estimated at 750,000+ over three days. The day we went we were at the busiest of the 6 stages to see Robert Plant and it was jammed. Cava couldn't have been better, our seat neighbors all wanted to meet her as did a lot of those passing by. She loved all the attention, got many compliments on how calm she was, how well trained, how pretty, sweet, and friendly, and I love that I didn't have to compromise on working ability to get everything else I was looking for.


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## Misty02 (Dec 27, 2019)

Kazel said:


> German shepherds are supposed to be a jack of all trade dogs aren't they? People keep suggesting dogs only titled in schutzhund and such but so many of those dogs are becoming sport lines not working lines. Amped up prey drive and other traits that aren't desirable for all owners(There is a difference between not all people should own german shepherds and that only the elite can handle them.) So many washed out titled WGSL from germany come over to be used as studs for byb bred dogs. A title is good but honestly I don't think anymore it's the end all breed test for the breed because people are taking it to the same extremes like showline breeders take conformation.
> 
> I could easily say that any title that doesn't have to do with herding isn't a breed worthy title for a german shepherd. That is obviously not true but it could be argued. What you consider breed worthy isn't what everybody else has to be considered as breed worthy. I think service dog work is a noble goal for a shepherd, from the true breed description it makes sense they'd be good at it. But people discredit lines that don't title in schutzhund but produce good solid dogs.
> 
> ...


Thank you, CC27. Part of my early research included what constitutes a good breeder. My spreadsheet contains a section of just questions to ask breeders during our conversation to determine how the dogs are bred, when, frequency, number of litters they have in a year, where the puppies are housed until picked up by their new owner, type of interaction the puppies have with people and many more. I have not interviewed many breeders but I’ve narrowed it down to three general types with a couple or so in between. I always ask if they have time to talk to ensure I have not caught them at a bad time or they are in rush due to another pressing matter. They can call me back and we can continue our conversation via email after as their time permits.

Type 1:

Contacted them via their website or other referral site. No call backs, just a short email referring me to their website (which I had reviewed already)
Not very interested in answering questions, refers me to their website for information. The website lacks the information I seek.
Some websites have “click here” to buy a puppy, no questions.
Some websites don’t have the history of the parents and/or when asked, none is provided.
No questions about me, my family or anything that would assist them in selecting the right litter/puppy for us.

Type 2:

Will answer some questions, but it is like pulling teeth.
Seems to prefer someone that has finalized their decision and is ready to buy now.
May ask a couple of questions, but even with my limited knowledge and experience, not enough.
Make me feel as if I am window shopping with no intent to buy and doesn’t realize I’m screening them as the right breeder to buy from.

Type 3:

Very proud of their dogs and puppies and answer most questions on the list, as part of the conversation, without them even being asked.
Are very interested an inquisitive about me, my family, what our daily life is like.
They want to know why I selected a GSD as the breed I want in my household, the type of activities we will have with the puppy.
The few I have spoken and corresponded with in this category have made me feel comfortable from first contact, information easily flows from both sides in order to facilitate finding/placing the right puppy in the right home.
They are open and honest about not having a current puppy to fit what we need or will have to wait for the right pairing that MIGHT yield the right puppy for us. Or just come out and say they don't normally breed puppies that will fit what we need.
They have 2-4 litters a year and those puppy are part of their family and socialized/trained until they go to their new owners.
More interested in making the right pairing than making a sale.

I also wanted to make sure I clarified some points. Like in any family, my family will participate in playing with the puppy and even exercise with the puppy; however, unless I need to travel (at times a week in a year, not even every year) the dog will be in my home and under my supervision. I will be the one attending training classes with him and reinforcing at home. The family will follow my instructions when they are around the dog, they understand my instructions must be followed or there will be suspension of puppy privileges. 

We have had extensive discussions, absolutely no food or treats I have not authorized, absolutely no exercise that I have not authorized and have further explained how certain activities before the puppy reaches a year old (which I will extend depending on the puppies development) will be harmful to his health, growth, and development. We have watched training videos together, many have been very good, everyone’s preferred is Robert Cabral. I document what I am learning in spreadsheets, which includes the Do(s) and Don’t(s). I have shared that spreadsheet with them, which include the original source. Before the puppy comes home it will be reviewed in great detail and critical things posted on the fridge for easy reference.

My family is very close, we enjoy time together. The majority of the fun events and vacations that get talked about the most are those where we were all together. However, make no mistake, we respect boundaries established by each family unit. They all know I don’t bluff; when I set specific rules breaking them has pre-disclosed consequences.

The family is aware that their cooperation and their adherence to the rules is critical in raising a healthy, happy and well-adjusted dog.

I would not normally provide this much information about myself or my family, but I hope it assists in gathering additional knowledge as well as obtain references of breeders and trainers to be used once we have our puppy. As respect training, we do need someone local.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Misty02 said:


> They all know I don’t bluff; when I set specific rules breaking them has pre-disclosed consequences.



Thumbs up on that.......and should work well on your dog once he knows what is expected of him.

SuperG


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## Misty02 (Dec 27, 2019)

Kazel said:


> German shepherds are supposed to be a jack of all trade dogs aren't they? People keep suggesting dogs only titled in schutzhund and such but so many of those dogs are becoming sport lines not working lines. Amped up prey drive and other traits that aren't desirable for all owners(There is a difference between not all people should own german shepherds and that only the elite can handle them.) So many washed out titled WGSL from germany come over to be used as studs for byb bred dogs. A title is good but honestly I don't think anymore it's the end all breed test for the breed because people are taking it to the same extremes like showline breeders take conformation.
> 
> I could easily say that any title that doesn't have to do with herding isn't a breed worthy title for a german shepherd. That is obviously not true but it could be argued. What you consider breed worthy isn't what everybody else has to be considered as breed worthy. I think service dog work is a noble goal for a shepherd, from the true breed description it makes sense they'd be good at it. But people discredit lines that don't title in schutzhund but produce good solid dogs.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your input, Kazel. 

In all fairness, Jax08 has been very supportive and helpful in providing what I requested in my original post, additional breeders I can contact as we search for the right breeder and puppy for our home. Thanks to Jax08 I met another great breeder that further enhanced my knowledge, was extremely pleasant, open and honest. Based on the conversation it appears they may not have the right puppy for me, but she will let me know if anything comes up that will help us in finding the right puppy. Jax08 also provided additional information that will lead to meeting other pure bred dogs so I can observe what I find desirable and what I don't.

It is logical for me to assume other GSD owners did extensive research before their acquisition. It is logical that specific titles on the parents, grandparents and other dogs related to the puppy give some guidance as to the lineage and attributes sought by that specific breeder for their future litters. 

My knowledge on breeding dogs is nearly non-existent; in raising humans it is entirely different. I know excellent caring families who have kids that stray and are completely different than the family that raised them. I am the mother of three, grandmother of 4. As previously mentioned, my children grew up with the same parents, same rules, close in age and all three are different, with different skills, different personalities, etc.

I promised my kids, and I disclosed to Cel that I will continue looking for other suitable breeders. I have in no way discounted Cel, the work she does with her dogs and the characteristics/traits she breeds for lead me to the conclusion that her puppies may be prone to being more sociable than others.

As I mentioned in my previous post, I will be the owner and will be present for all training, I will be the person administering the reinforcement at home and will be present for most (all, at the beginning) of the interactions he will have with the various family members.

While it may be different for dogs, I am assuming that the first several weeks of the puppy in my home will be critical. It has been separated from the mother, his litter mates, the home it knew, the smells he is familiar with, etc. Other than my youngest and his fiancé (they will be here until they buy their own house) visits will not be long and will be calm as to not alarm the puppy, visits will be schedule so he doesn't get everyone at the same time for at least a few months. The only family member that doesn’t understand the rules is my 1 1/2 granddaughter. She will not get to meet the puppy until his second or third week (maybe 4th). After that, there will be absolutely no interaction with her that I am not monitoring 100% of the time.

Even with the older girls (13 and 9), my kids have agreed that there is never to be any interaction without either me or a parent present. It will be unlikely that I am not present, but it is definitely forbidden without one of us (an adult) present.

PS – I apologize if I use the wrong terminology to express my thoughts. English is not my first language and I am trying to be as accurate as possible, but may miss the mark every so often.


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## Misty02 (Dec 27, 2019)

Jax08 said:


> @Kazel Good Morning to you too. My words make it clear that it was MY opinion. "for me" "nothing I like".
> 
> "German shepherds are supposed to be a jack of all trade dogs aren't they? People keep suggesting dogs only titled in schutzhund and such but so many of those dogs are becoming sport lines not working lines. Amped up prey drive and other traits that aren't desirable for all owners(There is a difference between not all people should own german shepherds and that only the elite can handle them.) "
> 
> ...


Jax08, you provided information I asked for and even additional information needed. I am very thankful to you for your participation and for sharing your knowledge and providing leads on suitable breeders to contact.

Indeed, you have repeatedly confirmed in this thread that based on what I have stated thus far, it is possible I can provide a suitable home for the right puppy.

I am definitely asking you all for your opinions and to share information that may assist my family. I am aware that opinions and advice received are based on what each of you believe it is best and based on your previous experiences. At the very minimum, it guides me to conduct additional research I had not yet considered.

The last thing I want is for anyone in this thread to feel they need to defend their opinion or recommendation. Obviously, I would not be opposed to anyone explaining why I should more closely review or should be weary of certain things. Sadly, I barely know enough, but I do know I know very little this subject; there is much more for me to learn and consider but do need guidance to get there.

I am also open to personal conversations, if that is anyone’s preference.


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## Misty02 (Dec 27, 2019)

Jenny720 said:


> @Misty02 That makes much more sense in regards to assertive. I have not read all the threads and saw you did mention that in a previous thread. Most important meet the dogs - titles are great but defiantly not a tell all. I have met dogs ipo titles I would not wanted. And I have met ones I would want in a heartbeat. I’m sure would be the same with other titles. What impressed most was in looking and why we got max police actually used the breeders dogs for cadaver work. I also loved to meet the entire family grandsires, grandmas , cousins etc. same with Luna. Seeing dogs in uncontrolled situations would be something you may want to look at with real young kids. I can see how therapy work is only a plus also. If you are lookin into service or therapy work so many people on Instagram you can reach out to see if they are familiar with the breeder you are looking at.
> I have kids , nephews who are toddlers. and some they see on occassion. The dogs enjoy the commotion and just not tolerate it but enjoy it and also the kids friends. I do not have to lock my dogs up for family parties which is what I wanted but if I had to so be it. Luna will be going out with my daughter when she ventures out to drive to places if at night. We enjoy many outings. I always like and will get a dog with natural protective instincts and Getting the right match is priceless. Have fun in your search and don’t discount other lines I assure you there are great dogs in every line. I have not seen the breeder you recommended. Easy to miss things with this new format and on the phone. For exercise many different places , noseworks , trailing,Learning new things , herding and do it yourself agility with equipment in the backyard and also i Always like natural equipment on outings. Going out with the kids and dogs is a time saver and gets everyone tired. Who knows where your new pup will lead you something adventurous for sure though!


Thank you, Jenny720. I am looking for something similar to what you mention. 

The parties in my house are mainly with my children and grandchildren, I’m not exactly a person that likes to host parties. Other extended family members are good at that, when they set those up with attend, help with either the set up or clean up and then leave. My preference has always been in being a guest rather than a host.


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## Misty02 (Dec 27, 2019)

SuperG said:


> Thumbs up on that.......and should work well on your dog once he knows what is expected of him.
> 
> SuperG


Thank you, SuperG.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Something to think about with kids and these types of dogs Misty, think in terms of respect, not love. I think the single biggest issue, maybe not for everyone, but a huge amount of the time is chasing. It can start off looking like excited running with kids, so even supervised you can miss it. I think that tends to be the first issue that escalates to other problems because chasing is generally going to become biting when they catch them and reestablishing respect can be pretty tough.

Chasing also doesn't have to only mean running after. It can be as subtle as a quick reaction to kids moving their hands. Calm kids, gentle and firm petting, training calm with the puppy, and a little bit goes a long way. It may sound like common sense, and maybe condescending, but when they've got some drive, these things sneak up on you because its always a little easier to wind them up then wind them down.


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## rotdocpa1 (Mar 19, 2018)

I would second the recommendation to look at the german showlines. The kennel I board at the owner has showlines and they are extremely nice and overall pretty laidback compared to my WL dogs. I believe they are Haus Juris lines. If you are set on a WL for whatever reason please consider a female. I have trained in a number of schutzhund clubs and most of the males do need more experienced handlers. I have seen the gamut from czech dogs w more moderate drive but greater suspicion to West German lines with frequently higher drive who can (not always) be more social. Keep in mind that a lower drive puppy is no guarantee that it will stay that way also.


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## Misty02 (Dec 27, 2019)

Steve Strom said:


> Something to think about with kids and these types of dogs Misty, think in terms of respect, not love. I think the single biggest issue, maybe not for everyone, but a huge amount of the time is chasing. It can start off looking like excited running with kids, so even supervised you can miss it. I think that tends to be the first issue that escalates to other problems because chasing is generally going to become biting when they catch them and reestablishing respect can be pretty tough.
> 
> Chasing also doesn't have to only mean running after. It can be as subtle as a quick reaction to kids moving their hands. Calm kids, gentle and firm petting, training calm with the puppy, and a little bit goes a long way. It may sound like common sense, and maybe condescending, but when they've got some drive, these things sneak up on you because its always a little easier to wind them up then wind them down.


Even common sense things are worth repeating as a reminder, Steve. Repetition is not only needed for the puppy during training, it is also needed for the trainer as a reminder, unless it is something they do day-in, day-out (which is obviously not my case at the moment). I have made note of many things researched and read to ensure they become part of our day-to-day interaction with the puppy.

Chasing games is being added to the “Don’t(s)” list. We didn't do it with our prior dog and it is common sense, but worth reinforcing since younger members of the family have not lived with a dog before. It is easy to see how that one can turn out badly. A game of chase ends when one party pins the other down to stop the chase. Calm and gentle had already been discussed with everyone, except the 1 1/2 year old; she remains the wild card we must all keep an eye on and supervise like a hawk and predict her every move before they take place. During supervised interaction she will be trained to go easy on the puppy and be gentle. My son got her a stuffed puppy and is showing her how to be “gentle”. We hope this repetition pays off, but take nothing for granted.

Respect and love, more often than not, go hand in hand. You tend to end up liking, admiring and even loving those you respect and believe to do the right things, at the right time, for the right reasons. 

I’m human and have made my share of mistakes, but after reading and researching on the breed I believe to possess the right temperament to raise the puppy, so long as I continue to educate myself, learn from the training classes and adequately transfer that knowledge to the family members that will have continuous exposure to the GSD. They have agreed to attend some training classes with me as well; this will help them learn (first hand) what the puppy needs and how to handle him. Had they not agreed to follow my instructions I would not be looking to get a puppy. 

Most of us with children and grandchildren deal with discipline issues daily. I adore my children and my grandchildren, there is little to nothing I wouldn’t do for them (within reason). While growing up, I was not the fun or permissive parent, not always the fun role, but I did view it as necessary for their development. The older they got, the closer we got. My daughter, the eldest and most rebellious of the three, often mentions how she hears my words coming out of her mouth with her own kids; not something she ever expected as a teen. Her husband, much like her dad, are wonderful, loving and carrying people who can’t stand making another person sad or deny their children what they want; which is necessary at times. I know my children loved me and respected me growing up, even if at times they didn’t like me very much because I made them do (or not do) things as they wanted. My grown up children all have their own lives today, voluntarily they and their families spend more time with me than with others. They insist on me joining them on vacation, I concede to some every so often but also remind them they need time alone away from their daily routine. I also need a little time for myself, which would be impossible if I spent every woken non-working minute with them.

My children and grandchildren are a part of my life; we are not a distant family (quite the contrary). It will take learning and training for the entire family to deal with the puppy as he grows up. It will also take time and training for the puppy to understand he is part of a large and growing family. It will be up to me to ensure that it is a natural and painless adjustment for all involved.


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## Misty02 (Dec 27, 2019)

rotdocpa1 said:


> I would second the recommendation to look at the german showlines. The kennel I board at the owner has showlines and they are extremely nice and overall pretty laidback compared to my WL dogs. I believe they are Haus Juris lines. If you are set on a WL for whatever reason please consider a female. I have trained in a number of schutzhund clubs and most of the males do need more experienced handlers. I have seen the gamut from czech dogs w more moderate drive but greater suspicion to West German lines with frequently higher drive who can (not always) be more social. Keep in mind that a lower drive puppy is no guarantee that it will stay that way also.


Thank you, Rotdocpa1. My research shows that female GSD start their heat cycle between age 5 to 14 months. Research has also shown many joint and health issues (particularly cancer) associated with spaying/neutering GSDs before 12 months. I have already decided that if I do spay or neuter our dog, it will be well after 12 months. Since it is likely not all GSDs develop at the same rate, timing is a discussion to be had with the vet, but it will never be before 12 months. In an 8 year study, spayed females had greater issues with urinary incontinence than intact females, although lower for females spayed after a year of age.

In general, it appears females do seem more susceptible to health issues than males.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

You'll be fine. You are _way_ more prepared than most people and have obviously thought this decision out very carefully.

Cava will be 2 tomorrow and I'm hoping to have her spayed shortly thereafter in order to catch her between the 2nd and 3rd heats. Her first was a week or two after her first birthday, the second was about 7 months later. Her heats were not a big deal, but there are a couple of tournaments coming up in March and April, and I'd have to miss them if she's in heat. I wanted to wait until she was 2 so she could get an OFA rating.

I don't know of any research that points to more health issues in females. It's possible, I just haven't seen it mentioned before. I do like the smaller size of females, Halo was about 54/55 pounds, and it looks like Cava will remain under 60 pounds.


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## Misty02 (Dec 27, 2019)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> You'll be fine. You are _way_ more prepared than most people and have obviously thought this decision out very carefully.
> 
> Cava will be 2 tomorrow and I'm hoping to have her spayed shortly thereafter in order to catch her between the 2nd and 3rd heats. Her first was a week or two after her first birthday, the second was about 7 months later. Her heats were not a big deal, but there are a couple of tournaments coming up in March and April, and I'd have to miss them if she's in heat. I wanted to wait until she was 2 so she could get an OFA rating.
> 
> I don't know of any research that points to more health issues in females. It's possible, I just haven't seen it mentioned before. I do like the smaller size of females, Halo was about 54/55 pounds, and it looks like Cava will remain under 60 pounds.


Thank you, Cassidy’s Mom. From my research, if I were to change my mind and opt for a female (it has not been completely discounted as the main preference is a healthy well-adjusted puppy, other factors being secondary), it would definitely be spayed when age appropriate, it seems it substantially reduces their health risks considerably, other than incontinence in later years of course.

It appears a female would be better with the family as a whole, but it seems the bond of the male with the owner would be stronger. Of course, no research I have done indicates that the female will not be as protective of its owner. All research also indicates that while some traits may generally appear more in one gender than another, each puppy is an individual and the traits can be reversed.

Needless to say, I am still in my learning stage, which is among the reasons I don’t necessarily want the puppy right now. I am not a spontaneous person, I enjoy everything a lot more after doing research; it even applies with relaxing events such as vacations. Not necessarily always a good trait, but it is part of who I am.

Knowing myself, I would say at least a month or more of research and learning will yield a more comfortable place from where to finalize decisions. The only thing that may break that cycle would be a breeder I have learned to trust tells me they have “right now” the perfect puppy for us. Even then, I may resist the temptation.

Newly acquired knowledge has also led me to push the age to maybe up to 16 weeks, the temperament and drive of the puppy will be more defined by then (it makes sense). Mind you, I still do believe that 8 to 16 week period would be highly beneficial bonding time between me and the puppy; however, if it is best for all those involved, I am willing to move the age the puppy comes home.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

@Misty02 I have been offline a lot for the last few weeks with family, so I missed your thread until now, I have a different opinion about a first GSD for a family than some of the others, although I skimmed and did not read every post in this thread. We had GSDs and mixes when I was younger, but my first purebred GSD as an adult was purchased when we had young children. We went to a breeder asking for a strong 8 week old male with good temperament. We ended up with a 12 weeks old female from a different breeding. She was from Vom Kirschental lines, which if you research here, you will see were very strong herding lines. They don’t breed anymore. She was high energy and had medium high to high drive, depending on the trigger, but also had a good off switch. She was unusually social. German Shepherd are supposed to have some human aggression but she didn’t have much. She did have some small dog reactivity, which isn’t great but we didn’t know any better and it was manageable.

I can’t stress enough the value of having a pet dog that is social if you have a lot of children and their friends in and out of your house. It is not breed standard, though, so if you want to go that route and want to go with traditional lines, you need an excellent breeder who can pull one out for you. Having had puppies ranging in age from 8-16 weeks, all GSDS, she was by far the easiest. The 16 week old was a rescue and came to us with some terrible behaviors. The 12 week had been partially trained as the breeder planned to show and title her, but changed her mind and sold her to us. She already had 4 weeks of excellent socialization. The 8 week old puppies needed a lot more attention, were heavy biters and a lot more challenging. My 12 and 16 week old dogs were potty trained when we got them. All were WGSL except the most recent who is a WL.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Misty02 said:


> In general, it appears females do seem more susceptible to health issues than males.


I don't agree with this at all. I think it's genetics and luck. Plain and simply. We've had many female dogs and overall they were healthy until the end of their lives. The boxers were 12 and 13, and my shepherd was just 10. Early spay/neuter affects both sexes.


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## Misty02 (Dec 27, 2019)

LuvShepherds said:


> @Misty02 I have been offline a lot for the last few weeks with family, so I missed your thread until now, I have a different opinion about a first GSD for a family than some of the others, although I skimmed and did not read every post in this thread. We had GSDs and mixes when I was younger, but my first purebred GSD as an adult was purchased when we had young children. We went to a breeder asking for a strong 8 week old male with good temperament. We ended up with a 12 weeks old female from a different breeding. She was from Vom Kirschental lines, which if you research here, you will see were very strong herding lines. They don’t breed anymore. She was high energy and had medium high to high drive, depending on the trigger, but also had a good off switch. She was unusually social. German Shepherd are supposed to have some human aggression but she didn’t have much. She did have some small dog reactivity, which isn’t great but we didn’t know any better and it was manageable.
> 
> I can’t stress enough the value of having a pet dog that is social if you have a lot of children and their friends in and out of your house. It is not breed standard, though, so if you want to go that route and want to go with traditional lines, you need an excellent breeder who can pull one out for you. Having had puppies ranging in age from 8-16 weeks, all GSDS, she was by far the easiest. The 16 week old was a rescue and came to us with some terrible behaviors. The 12 week had been partially trained as the breeder planned to show and title her, but changed her mind and sold her to us. She already had 4 weeks of excellent socialization. The 8 week old puppies needed a lot more attention, were heavy biters and a lot more challenging. My 12 and 16 week old dogs were potty trained when we got them. All were WGSL except the most recent who is a WL.


Thank you for the insight, LuvShepherds.

Fun fact: Between my research and this forum I have been led to develop a puppy/dog dictionary so I can learn to develop questions/comments to breeders and also understand the comments they make. Not long ago I would have assumed drive and energy were synonymous, imagine my surprise when I found they were not. I seem to be googling for definitions more often than in any other research I had done in other subjects.


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## Misty02 (Dec 27, 2019)

Jax08 said:


> I don't agree with this at all. I think it's genetics and luck. Plain and simply. We've had many female dogs and overall they were healthy until the end of their lives. The boxers were 12 and 13, and my shepherd was just 10. Early spay/neuter affects both sexes.


It is something said over and over again, Jax08; genetics, conditions growing up, luck, etc all play a part. Studies on joint issues, as well as other health risks, don’t mention lineage and if parents had similar problems. They also don’t address, if as puppies, these dogs played Frisbee or did continuous exercises/activities known to harm the joints of a growing puppy.

Were all your females spayed after the age of 12 months? It seems intact females have higher risks for tumors and cancers. 

How do all of you handle females in heat during the cycle(s) before they are spayed? For those weeks, they are taken nowhere? In all the years we have lived here, we have only seen a couple of stray dogs, one of which was adopted by a neighbor, so it might not be a problem (I don't know for sure).

I have not done as much research on female GSD as I have done on males. The dog we did own was male and fixed, thus I have no firsthand knowledge in dealing with neither intact males nor females. Here, if you get a puppy from the pound they are spayed/neutered before they are sent home with their new owners. Neighbors and friends who own dogs have bought them from pet stores, the pound or gotten them from friends whose dogs had puppies. No one seemed to know that spaying/neutering puppies too early could affect their future health.

The amount of information and studies on GSD out there is enormous, but all seem incomplete and none seem to take in consideration all known possible causes, from breeding/genetics to individual dog’s environment growing up.

One comforting piece of the puzzle is good reputable breeders; they seem to care about their dogs long after they have left their care. Many seem to stay in frequent contact with people that get their puppies and thus would become aware of health issues with their puppies which need to be addressed in future breeding. I guess issues with recessive genes in parents would be better predicted when there have been previous successful litters where all puppies have been healthy? I know it is still luck as it could affect a single puppy, even there are many healthy puppies from previous breeding?

From everything read to date, the critical starting point is the breeder, followed closely by the care we provide the puppy we bring home and obviously luck. Whichever puppy comes into my home will be a member of the family from the start. It is on me to assure I bring the right puppy home, which I know my family will immediately fall in love with. If I do make a mistake, it can’t be because I didn’t do my homework.

Perhaps I am overthinking and over-complicating my life with too much information? Sadly, it is part of who I am and I’ve yet to find the on/off switch for it. In spite all inconveniences it causes, it has served in the past to minimize possible mistakes.

With that in mind, I would appreciate if you all provided additional leads to reputable breeders that carefully screen their dogs for health and temperament so I can continue my search.


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## Misty02 (Dec 27, 2019)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I think if you find a reputable working line breeder (or several), and explain exactly what you're looking for you will not have any trouble getting a suitable puppy for your situation. When I've contacted breeders I always provide a detailed description of what traits I'm looking for and which I want to avoid, I explain my prior experience with GSDs (we've had them since 1986 and are on #6), what my plans are for the puppy and what our lifestyle is like. The more information you provide, the better. As others have mentioned, there is variety in a litter - just like all of your children are unique individuals, so will the puppies be. People's requirements are different and the perfect puppy for someone else may be completely wrong for you. The puppy that's exactly what you want may be the opposite of what someone else is looking for.
> 
> Higher thresholds, medium drive, an excellent off switch, a dog you can take anywhere, happy, confident, and outgoing, all of those are traits that would make an excellent family dog. I got my most recent puppy from Colorado; I'm in the San Francisco Bay Area. I had never met the breeder, I heard about the litter from a friend of a friend who co-owns the sire. At the time, I had had to retire my girl from flyball due to DM and we lost her about a month after bringing Cava home. I wanted a puppy with the drive to compete in a sport, but it was also very important to me to have a "take anywhere" dog. Training and competing are a relatively small part of our lives and I wanted a dog that would also be a great pet. Halo, my prior flyball dog, was described by her breeder as being suitable for a working or active pet home and she turned out to be exactly that. We hiked, she raced in flyball for 5 years, we did some dock diving for fun, we went to the park and chucked balls for her to chase and to swim. She would have been perfectly fine just being an active pet but it was clear early on that she would enjoy a sport so I found a class, joined a flyball club, and started racing.
> 
> I relied a lot on Cava's breeder's description of her dam, who was everything she wanted and the reason for the breeding - she was looking for her next working prospect. Elka is super athletic, the fastest GSD she's ever seen, and social off the field. A lot of people prefer a more aloof dog, but all of our GSDs have been very social and that's what I prefer. Cava was described as spunky, happy, and bubbly, and she totally is. She is sweet and cheerful, a bright presence in our house, with plenty of drive for flyball. I wanted a dog that's easily engaged, with a strong willingness to work for me. She's that too. And we do indeed take her everywhere. She's been to several restaurants with outdoor seating dozens of times, she's been to breweries, wineries, and she's been to a major music festival in Golden Gate Park in SF twice. This year, the attendance was estimated at 750,000+ over three days. The day we went we were at the busiest of the 6 stages to see Robert Plant and it was jammed. Cava couldn't have been better, our seat neighbors all wanted to meet her as did a lot of those passing by. She loved all the attention, got many compliments on how calm she was, how well trained, how pretty, sweet, and friendly, and I love that I didn't have to compromise on working ability to get everything else I was looking for.


Oops, my apologies Cassidy’s Mom, it seems I had missed this post.

We are in complete agreement. I have provided more information to breeders and in the forum about me and my family than ever before in my life! Heck, people that I have worked with for years likely don’t know this much about my personal life. Nonetheless, I understand it is crucial, if I am requesting references to breeders you all know and trust, so you can recommend the right breeder. It is also critical when talking with breeders so they can determine which traits in a puppy would fit our home and lifestyle.

The right breeder, above all, needs to be honest and knowledgeable of their dogs and prior litters. I need a breeder that will be frank; I have no issues with them telling me their dogs produce puppies with drives that would be unfit for my household. I need them to care about which home/family they place their puppies in.

What I am trying to avoid is a breeder that doesn't care and will place the wrong puppy with my family, just to make a sale. That would make both the puppy and us miserable, this is the outcome I am trying to prevent by doing proper research.

Puppies are cute and adorable, it will be quite easy for me to make a mistake (I lack knowledge in this area). I will be 100% dependent on the selected breeder to select the "right" cute and adorable puppy for us.


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## Misty02 (Dec 27, 2019)

In general, participation in this thread has led me to:

Don’t insist in WL, other lines may also yield the right puppy for our home
Don’t dismiss females, they may be the right puppy for our home
Which means, more research on other lines and on females.  I can handle that! (better now than lamenting later, that is for sure)


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Misty02 said:


> Were all your females spayed after the age of 12 months? It seems intact females have higher risks for tumors and cancers.


Again, I just go back to luck and genetics. We had one boxer, backyard bred and fed Dad's dog food, live to be 13. Died of a seizure most likely due to a brain tumor. Spayed prior to 6 months.
Another Boxer, spayed at 3, fed Purina. Lived to be 12. We had to let her go due to arthritis and she developed an infection that was super hard to treat. Even if we could cure it, the arthritis in her back was still an issue.
Note: It's not common for Boxers to live past 10 years.
I lost my first German Shepherd to hemangio at just 10 years old. Minimal vaccination, raw fed. Spayed at 4 months because I adopted her from a shelter.

There is literally no rhyme or reason to who lived longer. You can only do your research and find a breeder that has longevity in their lines to stack the deck in your favor.


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## Kari01 (Sep 7, 2018)

I don't have much to add regarding the WL / WGSL issue since I have never owned a WL, I own two WGSL one female and one male. With SL GSD's in general and I have seen the full spectrum from extremely hyper, territorial etc., to very calm, laid back and friendly. I think this could be the case in whichever lines you choose, depending on the kind of breeder and the type of dog that you ask for, so it's definitely good that you are doing your research!

Also in regards to the male / female question. My female is much more intense, energetic and unsociable with strangers and my male more open, calm and friendly, which is the opposite of what I think the usual conception is! I don't think this is always the case, but I think it points out how individual personality will be far more important than gender.

My female is 2 years old and has not been spayed, she has only had 3 heat cycles in that time, she didn't have her first heat until she was over 11 months old and has them roughly every 6 months. For me it's not a problem, hardly takes any management at all. I have never seen any stray dog try and come to our property whilst she is in heat, I have taken her on walks whilst she has been in heat, and never been bothered or seen any dog hanging around. What I read before I purchased her made me believe that I would be fighting off dogs left right and center, but that has not been the case at all! I have a pair of dog pants for the mess and / or I just keep her mostly in the kitchen (where there is tile floor). I don't leave her outside unsupervised whilst she is in heat, but she can run around our yard, I just keep an eye on her. She gets a bit clingy in her heat and wants to stay inside more anyway, so it's not such an issue. 

I think the risk for mammary cancers is extremely small and over-inflated by vets and others who are more interested in getting every animal spayed / neutered at 6 months purely because of routine population control (not for the health of the animal). However, as a responsible pet owner that is not an issue, so I agree that waiting until they are over 1 year (preferably 2) has been shown in the research to provide optimal health benefits for large breed dogs (male or female).


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I would not consider show lines because of the odds you will get a dog with a weak temperament. I would start educating yourself about training and purchase the book "Purely Positive Training" by Sheila Boothe and start to teach yourself the fundamentals of operant learning and how to apply them to foundation training for a pup. You can find a pup in a working line litter that is not over the top. If you go that route, you need to research different working lines and try to find out the type of dogs they produce. I would also look locally because there are a ton of breeders in FLA. Go to the United Schutzhund Clubs of America website, click on clubs and events, then click on the region FLA is in and look for clubs in FLA and there will be a few e-mail addresses so you can contact people in FLA who can lead you to a good working line breeder.


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

I think a WGSL would be the right lines for you. Not all of them have weak temperaments. I only know of one breeder I would recommend. She is in Illinois. Excellent breeder knows her lines titles her own dog’s. Does not breed often. If your interested in knowing more you can pm me.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Opining that the show lines have weak temperament is relative and subjective. On a more objective basis, why aren't there and show line dogs dogs doing apprehension work in police or military operations?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Opining that the show lines have weak temperament is relative and subjective. On a more objective basis, why aren't there and show line dogs dogs doing apprehension work in police or military operations?


That's irrelevant to what she's looking for and not every dog from any line will apprehend bad guys.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Misty02 said:


> In general, participation in this thread has led me to:
> 
> Don’t insist in WL, other lines may also yield the right puppy for our home
> Don’t dismiss females, they may be the right puppy for our home
> Which means, more research on other lines and on females.  I can handle that! (better now than lamenting later, that is for sure)


There's nothing I've done for a couple of years now with my dog, that you can't do with a good dog from any lines, male or female. Research is fine Misty, but at some point it needs to be hands on, in person. There's so much that comes down to likes and preferences with any breed that you need that perspective of seeing the actual dogs while you talk to owners or breeders.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Just doing my part to remind others how the show line people have harmed the breed.


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Just doing my part to remind others how the show line people have harmed the breed.


While I’m a WL owner always have been. Bashing Showlines is wrong. Like I said before not every SL is horrible. I know this for a fact.


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## simplystacey69 (May 6, 2019)

Misty02 said:


> Good afternoon to all. I am new to the forum and interested in adding a GSD to our family. I’m a novice on the breed and have not owned a dog in over 15 years. Our previous pet was from the animal shelter and lived with us for 8+ years until he became ill. All members of the family have wanted another puppy since then; however, there were many things going on in the family and I would not make the jump until I knew I had the time to dedicate to raising a companion and new family member.
> 
> From what I have learned during research, I am interested in a working line assertive male puppy to become the next member of our growing family. I have three grown children, with 4 grandchildren to date, with more to come. All my children live within 10 miles of my house, which is the family’s gathering place most of the time. My grandchildren also spend numerous weekends with me and will have frequent interaction with the puppy.
> 
> ...



I definitely do not recommend working line. I think from what you’ve said I would look at a west German show Line. Check out Theishof German Shepherds in Idaho. She ships and has amazing steady dogs. I too have grandchildren etc and was a first time GSD owner and my boy is 9 mos old and fantastic. I do not recommend a high drive one. I can’t even imagine how much work they become. Mine was considered low drive as a puppy but away from his litter I would say he has grown to a medium drive dog. Very confident and can be a handful. Training isn’t just classes. It every minute of every day and every single interaction with him. In my opinion GSDs should be their own breed. Completely different than any dog I have ever trained. They keep you on your toes and are lots and lots of work. I’m not trying to discourage you. Just being honest.


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## simplystacey69 (May 6, 2019)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Just doing my part to remind others how the show line people have harmed the breed.


Are you referring to American Show Lines or West German?


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## simplystacey69 (May 6, 2019)

simplystacey69 said:


> I definitely do not recommend working line. I think from what you’ve said I would look at a west German show Line. Check out Theishof German Shepherds in Idaho. She ships and has amazing steady dogs. I too have grandchildren etc and was a first time GSD owner and my boy is 9 mos old and fantastic. I do not recommend a high drive one. I can’t even imagine how much work they become. Mine was considered low drive as a puppy but away from his litter I would say he has grown to a medium drive dog. Very confident and can be a handful. Training isn’t just classes. It every minute of every day and every single interaction with him. In my opinion GSDs should be their own breed. Completely different than any dog I have ever trained. They keep you on your toes and are lots and lots of work. I’m not trying to discourage you. Just being honest.


Oh she also has working lines too, I believe.


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## athena's mom (Oct 19, 2011)

I second a West German showline. If you aren’t planning on working a working line GSD DAILY (mentally AND physically), then be prepared for a bored, potentially destructive nightmare. Working lines are not usually good candidates for family pets, because their drive is off the charts. West German show lines and good breeders of them are the epitome of the Golden Middle- good structure, health, and FANTASTIC temperaments.
I had excellent luck with Haus Juris in Virginia. I’m on my second GSD from there.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Please refrain from any discussions moving in the direction of bashing any particular line. It never ends well.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

athena's mom said:


> Working lines are not usually good candidates for family pets, because their drive is off the charts.


LOL




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

I'm not going to encourage you to get a puppy from any particular line. I have west german working line, my close friend has american showlines, and my other close friend has west german show lines. We all belong to the local German Shepherd Dog Club. All our dogs are health tested and titled in something before breeding. Dogs are socialized at club and puppies get the benefit of club members handling. We follow Puppy Culture for raising our litters (to the best of our ability). I work full time and am on my own most of the time, so I do what puppy culture I can. The three of us are currently taking herding lessons with our dogs (both of mine), the others just one or two of their dogs. 

I guess my point is, look for a breeder that is health testing the breeding stock, doing something with them (obedience, tracking, agility, SAR, IGP, herding, nose work), takes an interest in the betterment of the breed (breeding goals). My foundation bitch came from Austerlitz German Shepherd Dogs. First German Shepherd for me, spent 6 months looking, researching lines, emailing two different breeders, settled on them. I wanted a solid black bitch. I just had to put her down at 13 yrs 4 mos of age. She gave me a few wonderful litters. The one daughter I have from her last litter doesnt have the best conformation. She is built more like a Mal than a GSD. Her coat is very short, but it is full. Her front toes out a bit. She has crazy drive, is social, great with other dogs, full grip, biddable, agile. So I did some experimenting with her breedings. Bred her to a west german showline male, very nice puppies, great drives, although I would have liked to see better conformation. Next breeding, bred to an American Showline male. Kept a bitch puppy back from that litter. At 6 months of age she had taken a Best In Show in a UKC show, has since earned her UKC Champion and has been in herding training since 6 months of age. She is a go anywhere, do anything puppy (11 mos now). We also dabble in AKC shows, but has only been in a few. 

I dont think you have to get a dog from working lines. I dont think you have to stay away from American Showlines. Find the best fit for you. There are West German Lines out there doing IGP, and there are working lines that couldnt do it at all. Titles are NOT everything, but they are something. Right now I would want you to get out and meet some different dogs (adults). AKC shows, trials, events. UKC shows, trials, events. USCA trials, GSDCA has a list of events. 

The terminology used is subjective to the person using it. Boots on the ground is the best way to figure out what is going to best meet your needs. I did have prior exposure to German Shepherds before getting my very first (to call my own), so I had some knowledge of owning them already.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I have had WGSLs with so much energy they were bouncing off the the walls. My first female came from strong herding lines and never slowed down much even at age 13. My WL has high drive in that he goes from 0 to 100 in a second, but he has medium energy and if given good daily exercise is a bit of a couch potato. Generalizations don’t help anyone and they are usually wrong. I didn’t expect some of the WL behaviors but once I got used to him, he is possibly the smartest and best trained purebred GSD I’ve ever owned.


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## commonsenseandlogic (Aug 10, 2014)

CeraDean said:


> As far as the breeder you choose, many on this forum would hope for better titles. The schutzhund sport was invented as a breed test for GSDs so many would want at least an IGP1 on the breeding pair. I would think for your wishes, there would at least be obedience titles like BH or CD.
> 
> As far as drive is concerned, it is just as you believe. Even very sporty breeders don’t produce 100% sport dogs. Several of the dogs go to strictly pet homes.
> 
> ...





CeraDean said:


> As far as the breeder you choose, many on this forum would hope for better titles. The schutzhund sport was invented as a breed test for GSDs so many would want at least an IGP1 on the breeding pair. I would think for your wishes, there would at least be obedience titles like BH or CD.
> 
> As far as drive is concerned, it is just as you believe. Even very sporty breeders don’t produce 100% sport dogs. Several of the dogs go to strictly pet homes.
> 
> ...


Cera
There has been some good advice here and also some crazy talk. I dont want to pick on you but you said you "work" your dog "several times a day. Thats great if you do but several times a day is a little high. This woman is doing her research and being completely honest and you would think she is about to adopt a Unicorn stallion. Yes a GSD can be a challenge. If she is on this forum BEFORE she even puts a deposit on a puppy that is saying something. Lets not get snotty and think we are special because we already have some experience.


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## Bebe (Apr 17, 2011)

Hi Misty. Just want to share. I am 67. I have 5 adult children all married and 14 grandchildren. I did the research also and wanted a GSD from when I was a teen. My husband was a collie man and we had 3. Now it was my turn to pick. He was quite worried about a "GSD" being around a baby. I just didn't want bags of hair all over everything as you have with a short coated shepherd. I found a breeder in CA that bred old fashioned, straight back, large GSDs before everyone tried to make them different or better. I won't go into opinions on anything other that the one I found. She bred for size and temperament. That and long haired were my main desire. She has a facebook page, She shows not just photos but videos of the dam, sire, puppies and she is delightful. I still email her about my baby Riley. Sadly, I'm not sure she has any more long haired genes in her dogs. Her FB page doesn't show them. I think when a certain line she was breeding retired she went to standard coat shepherds. I can't swear to that but I check her page now and then as I was a second pup and would want one from her.
I have to remember, the paragraph is not my enemy. That is a quote from my son.

Riley is low prey drive and big as a house. I'm in heaven. If someone is telling you that there isn't a low prey they are mistaken. I know most of the people on here are more than informed on this breed and you can take their comments to the bank, so to speak. They know what they are talking about.

But then there is Riley and many other of her puppies. Riley is so low prey drive that I let him out one summer evening and there was an Opossum in the yard. Now our collie would put that poor thing into a "possum" state and I would have to him off, put a close basket over the Opossum and call for backup. Poor thing had babies on her back.

This memory flew into my mind when I saw the Opossum before Riley did. I was ready to run. Riley, he walked right past the Opossum and peed and came right back to me. The Opossum stared at him and I stared at him. Low prey drive.

He is so gentle with the grands and our youngest is now 3. She calls him Riley dog. She loves him. He would rather play with the teenagers but lets her brush him with her little hair brush and kiss his nose and he takes it. He steps around the kids on the floor and there are always a bunch. Three of our five children live 10-15 minutes away. One is 2 hours away. One is in FL.

Don't get me wrong, he is faster than a speeding bullet and can grab a ball 30 feet away faster than you reaching down to pick it up. And he grins. I have to play ball with 2 balls. He is a tad ball possessive. I thought that was so cute as a puppy. Now he is just spoiled.

My other GSD was a working dog and we had horses. Her name was Cheyenne but we called her She She from a younger siblings baby talk. You could say "watch him" to anyone and she would lay down in front of them. If they began to move, she would begin a "lunge" at them and they would get back to their spot. She could chase off a raccoon or 2 teenage boys that shouldn't have been on the property of two teenage girls. She was fierce. But a gentle giant. I wouldn't have wanted her around my 12-14 grandchildren all here at once. God I loved her.

My point is, if you a low energy GSD there are breeders out there. Mine was not a back yard breeder and she didn't have a champion in every dam or sire. She bred only for family placement and kept the puppy/puppies she wanted to breed with other lines. 

I'm not trying to tell you how to pick a breeder or what training you will need. GSDs need a strong handler that will keep even the low energy dogs in check. They are smart, sometimes large and you have to be in control of this beast that wants to lay at your feet and is in heaven there.

We have a huge yard of about 1/3 acre. I'm in a subdivision so that is a big yard. It's enough to run him ragged playing ball in. We have two dogs next-door and they love to "call" to each other to play. Sadly they are on an electric fence so no playing at will. I am in charge.

Surprisingly, Riley prefers my company then fresh air. He is a house dog. Although, weather permitting, I'd rather be outside gardening than inside with the A/C.

If this breeder sounds like you would be interested, you can send me a message. As far as I know we aren't supposed to recommend breeders on the forum and they aren't allowed to "sell". I could be wrong. I'm more of a reader on this forum and asking for help than I advise.

It had been so long since I had a GSD that I forgot all about the "land shark" period of puppyhood. There was a lot I didn't remember about the puppy years. My husband says it takes 4 years to make a good dog. Riley is going to 6 in January. He is still a puppy.


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## JillCar (Jan 9, 2020)

Misty02 said:


> Good afternoon to all. I am new to the forum and interested in adding a GSD to our family. I’m a novice on the breed and have not owned a dog in over 15 years. Our previous pet was from the animal shelter and lived with us for 8+ years until he became ill. All members of the family have wanted another puppy since then; however, there were many things going on in the family and I would not make the jump until I knew I had the time to dedicate to raising a companion and new family member.
> 
> From what I have learned during research, I am interested in a working line assertive male puppy to become the next member of our growing family. I have three grown children, with 4 grandchildren to date, with more to come. All my children live within 10 miles of my house, which is the family’s gathering place most of the time. My grandchildren also spend numerous weekends with me and will have frequent interaction with the puppy.
> 
> ...


Von Gildaf German Shepherd In Wisconsin ;
Melinda Clark. Reach out to her . She is also on Facebook. also check LONE RIDGE Farms, 
Sure you can google and find them but they are also on Facebook and post photo of the puppies etc..


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Simply Stasi,
I am referring to American lines and any European show lines. 
Big Ozzy,
If you watch any/all videos from the 2019 German Sieger Show of the bite work test, you would probably think differently. They are supposed to be the best of the German show lines and they all suck in the bite work test and the helper has to manipulate the dog to bite by jumping back before the strike to trigger prey and hopefully ensure the dog will engage and the stick never touches the dog on the drive because they know the vast majority would run. It is pitiful to watch. The show people sold out a portion of the breed for money. Same is happening at the sport end, but to a lesser extent and the genetics for work are still in some dogs/lines.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

commonsenseandlogic said:


> Cera
> There has been some good advice here and also some crazy talk. I dont want to pick on you but you said you "work" your dog "several times a day. Thats great if you do but several times a day is a little high. This woman is doing her research and being completely honest and you would think she is about to adopt a Unicorn stallion. Yes a GSD can be a challenge. If she is on this forum BEFORE she even puts a deposit on a puppy that is saying something. Lets not get snotty and think we are special because we already have some experience.


I think the OP is doing a great job researching! She’s getting great answers and able to witness the show verse working line debate. And if she finds that Unicorn Stallion, she’ll have to share the breeder because my daughter wants one now. 

I’ll clarify what I mean by working my dog in case that comes off as ‘snotty’. I have a puppy, training sessions can’t be long yet and be productive so they typically last 5 minutes. So I do several, very short training sessions a day.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

JillCar said:


> Von Gildaf German Shepherd In Wisconsin


I would discourage you from this breeder, and also the other one mentioned.


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## CoffeeGirl (Jul 31, 2018)

I'll throw my two cents in here. I'm a first-time GSD owner with a two year old working line female from a reputable breeder (who came recommended to me from this forum). Our breeder has many years of experience in placing puppies in pet homes. We're considered a pet home, but we do a LOT more than the typical American pet owners with our dog. She needs it. Craves exercise and engagement with her brain. It's not just about throwing the ball around in the backyard enough - she needs her brain to be worked. We've been in training classes on and off since her puppy classes and we dedicate time throughout the week to train her. Not for anything specific, but take her out to a park for example and work on obedience.

We're in a CGC class now, but I'm not sure if we'll pass. Her obedience is excellent, but she is extremely distrustful of strangers and the stranger coming to greet me will be challenging for her. Her instinct is to bark in warning if strangers get too close. This is great if I'm walking her alone in a park, but not so great for CGC. That's okay with us though, having a protective dog. And we don't mind working on it with her to get her where we want her to be eventually. She's not a dog that can just be loose and free when guests come over, she must be managed so that both her and my guests are comfortable. Sometimes that means she's crated during my daughter's playdates.

She's very gentle with my young daughter, now. When she was a growing puppy we had some challenges. Kona (our dog) didn't mean to hurt my daughter ever, but she's a GSD and likes to bite EVERYTHING. It required a lot of training and patience to get through that stage. I still have some small scars on my hands from that stage of her life. Now she doesn't even play tug as hard with my daughter as she does my husband, for example, because she knows to be gentler with her. Still. There are only certain kids I would let her be around because I recognize that she is not a Labrador Retriever, and quite frankly, a lot of people are scared of her just because of the way she looks. She picks up on that for sure.

I've been around dogs my entire life, high drive hunting dogs. GSDs are not that. They are a whole other thing. They are beautiful and extremely intelligent and loyal and they will do anything to please their people. We knew what we were getting after extensive research and conversations with GSD people, so we were prepared. But even still, a working line GSD is quite literally a breed that has to be seen and experienced to really understand IMO. We love our Kona and have been successful with her and so can you. Just know, as much as possible, what you're really getting. Good luck!

If you're interested in a breeder anywhere in the country, ours is Vom Haus Weinbrand in Ohio. I know for a fact she won't place a dog in a home she doesn't think it's suited to, she's refused buyers before. She'll give you her honest opinion. I think she has a litter coming up soon, but you won't know until the puppies are older whether there might be one suited to you.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

CoffeeGirl said:


> Vom Haus Weinbrand in Ohio.


Good breeder


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

The CGC is not a good test for a GSD. GSDs with good nerves, but a low threshold for defense or who have the trait of mistrust will fail and that does not mean they are unstable or dogs with temperament issues.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I suggest to people posting here who are new to read many threads before making comments like “snotty” in regards to advice. Once you have a hundred or so helpful posts and people know your experience level, you are more credible. I don’t agree with everything every regular established member here says but at least I know who is posting and I understand why they say what they do. 

@vomlittlehaus I just ran into the idea of Puppy Culture as a behavioral method recently. I got a bit turned off because it seems directed toward a different breed, but I’m also curious what results you get with German Shepherds using this methods VS dogs haven’t been raised with it. I think they offer feeding as well as behavior advice. It’s also hard to find a breeder who uses it and it must be started when pups are newborns. The breeders I looked at were all breeding different breeds than ours,


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## Miika's Mom (Sep 23, 2013)

Hi Misty,
Just wanted to let you know that I have met one of the Celhaus dogs and thought she was great. I, too, am looking at her as a possible breeder especially after meeting the initial meeting of this pup and then seeing how she was months later. It was her structure that caught my eye and her temperament, decent drive, and solid nerve that caused me to find out who the breeder was. She is this owners second Celhaus dog. The first one lived for 15 years. 

I have yet to contact her, but that is due to how life for me is right now. I hope to take a trip to meet her and her dogs in the not too distant future. 

Good luck in your hunt. Love my slightly nervy, but wiling to please GSD who decided to move in a few years ago and my baby girl (first purebred) who is solid nerved, has good drive, loves kids, and has succeeded in everything we have attempted to date.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

When it comes to family/kids/ etc by hanging around IGP clubs and people for two years I have seen from both SLs and WLs dogs that I would walk right in their house if their handler was not home, and dogs I would NOT lol You are not going to work or compete with your dog so the intricacies beyond "socially safe" and health tested genetics should not muddy your immediate research.

As far as SL vs WL, nevermind difference in temperaments (there is variety in lines of both, both in the negative and positive aspects) you will pay a lot more for a SL, and if you aren't doing show, you'd have paid more money for a popular idea by show people of aesthetics. Which is fine, just realize they are more expensive because people do shows with them and apparently that is where the money is. So if traveling all over to Siegar shows and winning ribbons isn't in your plans, just know you paid a lot extra to admire the deep reds and blacks in your dog..from your living room  A well and properly bred SL will cost significantly more than a proper bred WL.

1) use a good breeder. Jax08 gave a blessing on one. You can trust that poster's recommendation.
2) communicate to the breeder everything about your life and what you are picturing out of having one of their GSDs in your life. If they are a good breeder, they will be the best to pick an appropriate dog for you.

As for kids. I have 2 WLs in my house. One has very high defense drive/suspicion. One has very high prey drive. I also have 3 children ages 13 (neurotypical), and 11 year old boy (hand flapping hyper active over the roof squealing hopping on toes everywhere hand flapping autism) and an 8 year old boy (CP, severe global delay, non verbal). I also have social workers in and out of my house for home therapies after school 5 days a week. My daughter has friends over. We even got a kitten that has been around 4 months now. Nobody has died.

BUT..my kids are good with animals. They are patient and forgiving with them. My daughter was a great help being the 2nd set of hands with a landsharking puppy. We kept tugs holstered in pants constantly for redirection. Kids need to be good with dogs before you can expect a dog to be good with children. And they need supervision. I don't expect a child of an age that I would not allow them to cross the street alone to be 100% trustworthy wit the lessons on animal etiquette they have been given. I expect even less out of an animal. Until dogs are trustworthy oh...18 months or more and kids are trustworthy over..oh..8..expect the unexpected out of each.

Your grandchildren will feel needle puppy teeth on them at some point unless every adult involved is from the not human inhabited planet I Am Too Perfect To Ever Not Pay Attention For A Second. So just make sure they know all this. Give them the tool of knowledge and a good puppy tug so they can learn too. It will help them feel in control and will help in the patience department on their part. I have a book my daughter read about raising a working puppy. It helped a great deal.

I also use trainers. Privates when I need help with a home behavior. I go to IGP training maybe twice a month. I walk eachdog a good hour a day, I incorporate structured OB exercises into their walk, and stop at a public service field I got permission to run them on, and play 2 ball. I have a career where I work from home at least 2 more often 3 days a week. On the days I go out to meet with clients, if the weather isn't extreme in either direction the dogs come with. In between stops with clients I can run them if I see a spot, or do a quick Petco or Lowes outing. Just detailing what is involved in my version of "making it work".

1)You have to make sure the kids understand what a GSD puppy is all made of. They need to work with you. 2)Make sure that even if you are not doing structured sport or work with a dog, you have the type of life where you can give them the relationship with a handler they need, physical and mental stimulation. It doesnt have to be every blessed day. I have missed larger chunks of tiume and as long as I kept them engaged with me in the house in periods here and there..they were fine.

All that, in combination with a good breeder and a good breed oriented trainer, the puppy months will be worth it in spades.

Just illustrating how I am enjoying having the dogs in my life despite what a type of life that most would say "pass". There was a great sentence posted by someone recently. may have been this thread. How will anyone ever become a second time GSD owner if they never become a 1st? After your 1st GSD your next dog will either be another GSD...or not.


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## Misty02 (Dec 27, 2019)

Jax08 said:


> Again, I just go back to luck and genetics. We had one boxer, backyard bred and fed Dad's dog food, live to be 13. Died of a seizure most likely due to a brain tumor. Spayed prior to 6 months.
> Another Boxer, spayed at 3, fed Purina. Lived to be 12. We had to let her go due to arthritis and she developed an infection that was super hard to treat. Even if we could cure it, the arthritis in her back was still an issue.
> Note: It's not common for Boxers to live past 10 years.
> I lost my first German Shepherd to hemangio at just 10 years old. Minimal vaccination, raw fed. Spayed at 4 months because I adopted her from a shelter.
> ...


You have all been very helpful and I understand that at the end of the day it will be the luck of the draw as each puppy will be an individual. I also owe it to my family to do my best in the selection and that it is not due to my lack of research that the right puppy doesn’t end up in the wrong home. 

Once I feel I have done my best, then I’ll know the rest is up to how the puppy is brought up, that we do the best we can for its health and training so the puppy is well adjusted to the family and vice versa. The right breeder, the right parents and the right puppy from those puppies is just a part of the entire process; the rest is up to us. The right foods at the right time, the right vet, the right exercise at the right time, the right training at the right time will also play a big part in that puppy’s life and ours. Then there is the luck part, which I know we have no control over.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

When you launch right, with a good and appropriate breeding, and mentors/training..the rest is honestly not such a grind. Consistency and patience pays off


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## Misty02 (Dec 27, 2019)

Kari01 said:


> I don't have much to add regarding the WL / WGSL issue since I have never owned a WL, I own two WGSL one female and one male. With SL GSD's in general and I have seen the full spectrum from extremely hyper, territorial etc., to very calm, laid back and friendly. I think this could be the case in whichever lines you choose, depending on the kind of breeder and the type of dog that you ask for, so it's definitely good that you are doing your research!
> 
> Also in regards to the male / female question. My female is much more intense, energetic and unsociable with strangers and my male more open, calm and friendly, which is the opposite of what I think the usual conception is! I don't think this is always the case, but I think it points out how individual personality will be far more important than gender.
> 
> ...


Thank you, Kari01. I understand each dog is an individual, which may not conform to the generalizations of gender and type. I too was under the impression that with an intact female I would be fighting off males from all over and that taking her out would be unwise. I'm glad to see that may not always be the case.

As far as the health risks/benefits of spaying/neutering, I don’t need much convincing to understand that doing it before 1+ year can have negative health effects. It is also logical that there would be no ovarian cancer where there are no ovaries. On the others, the studies only consideration were breed and age neutered, nothing about their family history or other possible contributing factors.


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## Misty02 (Dec 27, 2019)

Chip Blasiole said:


> I would not consider show lines because of the odds you will get a dog with a weak temperament. I would start educating yourself about training and purchase the book "Purely Positive Training" by Sheila Boothe and start to teach yourself the fundamentals of operant learning and how to apply them to foundation training for a pup. You can find a pup in a working line litter that is not over the top. If you go that route, you need to research different working lines and try to find out the type of dogs they produce. I would also look locally because there are a ton of breeders in FLA. Go to the United Schutzhund Clubs of America website, click on clubs and events, then click on the region FLA is in and look for clubs in FLA and there will be a few e-mail addresses so you can contact people in FLA who can lead you to a good working line breeder.


Thank you, Chip. I have looked into a couple of Clubs and will be attending their local event when held.


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## Misty02 (Dec 27, 2019)

BigOzzy2018 said:


> I think a WGSL would be the right lines for you. Not all of them have weak temperaments. I only know of one breeder I would recommend. She is in Illinois. Excellent breeder knows her lines titles her own dog’s. Does not breed often. If your interested in knowing more you can pm me.


Good morning BigOzzy2018. Thank you for willingness to share.


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## Misty02 (Dec 27, 2019)

Steve Strom said:


> There's nothing I've done for a couple of years now with my dog, that you can't do with a good dog from any lines, male or female. Research is fine Misty, but at some point it needs to be hands on, in person. There's so much that comes down to likes and preferences with any breed that you need that perspective of seeing the actual dogs while you talk to owners or breeders.


I understand, Steve. I know research will go only so far. I have met a few German Shepherds and have a general idea of what I’m looking for, obviously not enough. Since I started this thread I have also found a couple of people I actually do know that have had GSDs all their lives. Incredible what you find out when people know you are looking for something specific, one is a gentleman I have worked with for over 15 years. I rarely ask questions and only know what people volunteer, he found out I was looking for a GSD and shared some information.

I will be attending some local dog shows, there I can meet some of the GSDs and their breeders/handlers, I am also aware those breeders/handlers will be participating with their top dogs, which have many hours of training (from people that know their stuff) and not necessarily the one I would be bringing home.

For me (and I could be totally incorrect here) it still boils down to finding the right breeder, who I feel I can trust, and have them use their knowledge in selecting the right puppy for our home.

I can tell you that there isn’t a single GSD I have met since I started this quest, which I wouldn’t want as my own. They have all been very well behaved, novel and absolutely gorgeous animals. Oddly, none of them have been obtained from the type of reputable breeder we have been discussing in this thread. They have been good owners and it shows on their GSD; from the description of the breeder and the breeder’s facility where they got their dog, I am tempted to say they were just incredibly lucky with their find.

The Malinois breeder my son knows will be taking me to meet another police officer that breeds GSDs who he knows, in the very near future. We will see what that yields. Normally, I would not impose on someone’s time, unless I have read about them and seen their reviews and was completely satisfied with everything I knew. I figure everyone’s time is valuable and is disrespectful to abuse it; however, they did offer and agreed to no strings attached. I do trust the person that is taking me, and we are talking of AKC registered dogs, so it is a good starting point.


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## Misty02 (Dec 27, 2019)

simplystacey69 said:


> I definitely do not recommend working line. I think from what you’ve said I would look at a west German show Line. Check out Theishof German Shepherds in Idaho. She ships and has amazing steady dogs. I too have grandchildren etc and was a first time GSD owner and my boy is 9 mos old and fantastic. I do not recommend a high drive one. I can’t even imagine how much work they become. Mine was considered low drive as a puppy but away from his litter I would say he has grown to a medium drive dog. Very confident and can be a handful. Training isn’t just classes. It every minute of every day and every single interaction with him. In my opinion GSDs should be their own breed. Completely different than any dog I have ever trained. They keep you on your toes and are lots and lots of work. I’m not trying to discourage you. Just being honest.


Thank you, simplystacey69. I have expanded my line search, actually, I have removed the WL requirement (learning the acronyms as I go). Thank you for the recommendation. I will be checking them out next.

The main reason I have not considered having another dog for these many years is because I am aware they require as much time as a child. We have all been watching videos and reading about training, training classes are mostly to ensure we are learning the right way to train/teach the dog. As it would be with a child, the real training and education is the one done at home day-in and day-out via reinforcement.

Coming from someone with little to very limited knowledge, I know any large breed dog can be extremely dangerous to its family and others, if not properly trained and cared for. I know it will take a lot from me, I am also at a time in my life where that is also exactly what I need for my own mental, physical and emotional well-being.

I’m not expecting it to be easy, but I am expecting it to be rewarding.


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## Misty02 (Dec 27, 2019)

athena's mom said:


> I second a West German showline. If you aren’t planning on working a working line GSD DAILY (mentally AND physically), then be prepared for a bored, potentially destructive nightmare. Working lines are not usually good candidates for family pets, because their drive is off the charts. West German show lines and good breeders of them are the epitome of the Golden Middle- good structure, health, and FANTASTIC temperaments.
> I had excellent luck with Haus Juris in Virginia. I’m on my second GSD from there.


Thank you, Athena’s mom. This is exactly what I am looking for. Breeders you all know that have had good experience with (directly or indirectly). I have added them to my spreadsheet and will start looking into them now as well.


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## Misty02 (Dec 27, 2019)

vomlittlehaus said:


> I'm not going to encourage you to get a puppy from any particular line. I have west german working line, my close friend has american showlines, and my other close friend has west german show lines. We all belong to the local German Shepherd Dog Club. All our dogs are health tested and titled in something before breeding. Dogs are socialized at club and puppies get the benefit of club members handling. We follow Puppy Culture for raising our litters (to the best of our ability). I work full time and am on my own most of the time, so I do what puppy culture I can. The three of us are currently taking herding lessons with our dogs (both of mine), the others just one or two of their dogs.
> 
> I guess my point is, look for a breeder that is health testing the breeding stock, doing something with them (obedience, tracking, agility, SAR, IGP, herding, nose work), takes an interest in the betterment of the breed (breeding goals). My foundation bitch came from Austerlitz German Shepherd Dogs. First German Shepherd for me, spent 6 months looking, researching lines, emailing two different breeders, settled on them. I wanted a solid black bitch. I just had to put her down at 13 yrs 4 mos of age. She gave me a few wonderful litters. The one daughter I have from her last litter doesnt have the best conformation. She is built more like a Mal than a GSD. Her coat is very short, but it is full. Her front toes out a bit. She has crazy drive, is social, great with other dogs, full grip, biddable, agile. So I did some experimenting with her breedings. Bred her to a west german showline male, very nice puppies, great drives, although I would have liked to see better conformation. Next breeding, bred to an American Showline male. Kept a bitch puppy back from that litter. At 6 months of age she had taken a Best In Show in a UKC show, has since earned her UKC Champion and has been in herding training since 6 months of age. She is a go anywhere, do anything puppy (11 mos now). We also dabble in AKC shows, but has only been in a few.
> 
> ...


Thank you, vomlittlehaus. That is what I am doing now, met a couple and will be going to shows. The more I learn, the least restrictive I become in many of my original requirements (I had the wrong requirements). I don’t need a dog that will win competitions, but I do need one that is generally healthy and has the right temperament and fit to our family. You have mentioned other shows/events I didn’t have in my list that I have added so we can go see those.


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## Misty02 (Dec 27, 2019)

LuvShepherds said:


> I have had WGSLs with so much energy they were bouncing off the the walls. My first female came from strong herding lines and never slowed down much even at age 13. My WL has high drive in that he goes from 0 to 100 in a second, but he has medium energy and if given good daily exercise is a bit of a couch potato. Generalizations don’t help anyone and they are usually wrong. I didn’t expect some of the WL behaviors but once I got used to him, he is possibly the smartest and best trained purebred GSD I’ve ever owned.


Thank you, LuvShepherds. It sounds like your WL line GSD would be my dream dog! While I am not looking or expecting a couch potato, I definitely wouldn’t mind a dog I can sit with, every so often, to watch a good movie. I am not into watching TV, but have done so as well at times.

Now all I need is a breeder that will help me select that dream GSD.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

You can train a dog to snuggle if you want them to. It takes a lot of time and patience. As a puppy, he hated restraint of any kind. I taught him to lie quietly at my feet during meals. Then I worked on hugs. It took a long time.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Misty02 said:


> I can tell you that there isn’t a single GSD I have met since I started this quest, which I wouldn’t want as my own. They have all been very well behaved, novel and absolutely gorgeous animals. Oddly, none of them have been obtained from the type of reputable breeder we have been discussing in this thread. They have been good owners and it shows on their GSD; from the description of the breeder and the breeder’s facility where they got their dog, I am tempted to say they were just incredibly lucky with their find.


I've met a lot of amazing dogs from unreputable breeders. Great temperaments and such, but one thing many of the purebreds particularly the shepherds share is eventual health issues. With the trend of rehoming problem dogs, no longer as commonly euthanizing aggressive dogs, and breeding anything that isn't altered I've noticed a marked surge in dogs with unstable temperaments now versus unhealthy dogs with stable temperaments so I think nowadays its getting even more important to find a good breeder. 10-15 years ago in my area dogs that bit especially children that wasn't a warranted bite were put down. Now a lot of those dogs are rehomed and some are bred.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

It seems like an overwhelming task but once you meet breeders and see their dogs, you will find a breeder with dogs you like. Then you do the best you can.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Misty02 said:


> While I am not looking or expecting a couch potato, I definitely wouldn’t mind a dog I can sit with, every so often, to watch a good movie.


I have no idea what you're talking about. ? (My working line girl Cava)


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## CoffeeGirl (Jul 31, 2018)

I wouldn't worry that you're wasting a breeder/dog person's time talking about their dogs. My dad is a professional trainer (retrievers). Believe me, people like that love nothing more than talking about their dogs. Example A: GermanShepherds.com LOL


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## CoffeeGirl (Jul 31, 2018)

Kona will 'snuggle' with me in the evenings to watch a movie. I still have to watch out for a flying paw or tail when she rolls over, but you know. ?‍♀


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

Neither one of my dog’s are snugglers or ones that need or want to be petted.


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## Merakai (Mar 18, 2019)

HI Steve,

It seems like you've gotten amazing advice. What a friend told me who's in the dog world is to write what you want in a dog down, then look at breeders that fit those specific requirements. Also look at the contract x guarantee - how long is it for, do they take their dogs back (who knows), how are they raised, socialized etc.

My big guy is WLxSL bred, he's from a reputable breeder in Ontario; was my first shepherd (previously had Dalmatians). He has a great temperment but his drive is high.. which I've been lucky and can handle it. The breeder gave me a bit more drive then what I was planning on but as she said you can handle it. He is strong, I almost killed my hand when I had him out on his long lead and a squirrel went whizzing by.. as off he went at full tilt..hence working through leave it and the drive to get it.

To echo what others say.. be ready to walk, run, wrestle.. a lot. They don't care if it's cold, snowing or rain.. hotter temps seem to slow them down a bit. Because of his drive and stamina my guy is a good 2-3 hrs per day of exercise... my friends balk at that one, but it's what keeps him sane.

I'd find a good trainer to work with and as the pup grows find out what it likes.. scent, agility, tracking, loving people etc and then give them a job. Kai is a certified therapy dog so he goes into visit patients in my local hospital and I do a bit of dog sport training with him as well.

They are cool dogs, that have amazing hearts. It seems like you are well on your way to finding the right fit.


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

> @vomlittlehaus I just ran into the idea of Puppy Culture as a behavioral method recently. I got a bit turned off because it seems directed toward a different breed, but I’m also curious what results you get with German Shepherds using this methods VS dogs haven’t been raised with it. I think they offer feeding as well as behavior advice. It’s also hard to find a breeder who uses it and it must be started when pups are newborns. The breeders I looked at were all breeding different breeds than ours,


Look up Austerliz German Shepherds. She has a FB page and posts tons of videos that show the progression of each litter, and the use of Puppy Culture. There is also a Puppy Culture FB page, and Positive Breeders reinforcement page. I do my best with my litters, working full time, mostly doing it by myself, no video capability. Doing what I can is better than nothing. And puppies that are litter trained are much easier to clean up after.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

My girl Scarlet and her litter mates were raised with Puppy Culture. My breeder is a good friend, and she loaned me her Puppy Culture DVDs before the litter was born, so I would know what she was taking about.


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## Misty02 (Dec 27, 2019)

My apologies to everyone, I have been away with grandchildren events and not reading the responses received. I will be doing some reading and responding this weekend as time permits while planning for the family karaoke party tomorrow for my youngest that is turning 31. He’s fiance is the putting it together, but it is at my house. He is celebrating with his friends today, tomorrow is just us, his siblings, their spouses and children and his fiance. 

Everyone in the family has to pick a song to perform and learn the lyrics (can’t believe I have to study for a birthday party). The youngest in the family will be performing “Baby Shark”. I do *NOT* recommend you play this song around little ones, unless you are prepared to listen to it 300 times in a day (not exaggerating by much) and be forced by your little ones to perform it along with them. In case you are crazy enough, here is the one hour loop 



 . Warning, after a few performances, the song will play in your head, without the need of the video or a child singing it to you.

Yes, this is the kind of crazy family; a poor puppy will be joining!


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## Misty02 (Dec 27, 2019)

LuvShepherds said:


> You can train a dog to snuggle if you want them to. It takes a lot of time and patience. As a puppy, he hated restraint of any kind. I taught him to lie quietly at my feet during meals. Then I worked on hugs. It took a long time.


That sounds absolutely adorable, LuvShepherds! 

I’m not much of a snuggler, my body exudes a great amount of heat and will start sweating quickly if there is something or someone on me for extended periods. So far one of my children and two of my grandchildren seem to have the same issue. Nothing wrong health wise, but we spend a pretty penny to keep our home comfortable in this Florida weather.


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## Misty02 (Dec 27, 2019)

Hi everyone! It is hard to believe my original question was 9 months ago, as I embarked in my quest to find the perfect GSD for my family. So much has happened since then!

Our adorable Minka is now 9 months (I still can't believe that!). She is extremely sweet and full of energy! She loves and wants to play with everyone!! Here are some pictures of her.


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## Catrinka (Aug 6, 2020)

She's a beautiful girl! I'm glad Minka has turned out to be a good fit for your family.


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## Misty02 (Dec 27, 2019)

Catrinka said:


> She's a beautiful girl! I'm glad Minka has turned out to be a good fit for your family.


She has really exceeded all our expectations. She is even super gentle with the 2 year old granddaughter. To my horror, I have seen her put her entire hand in Minka’s mouth and Minka just licks her. I keep telling her to not do that, even if unintentional, she could have a sneeze or something else out of control that can lead her to close her mouth. In the process, I have also discovered that it is a lot easier to train a puppy than a toddler.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

It's not easy to get good pictures of black dogs but you've managed and she's beautiful! Glad to hear she's a good fit!!


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

Beautiful great pick of color


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

She's a beautiful girl! BigOzzy beat me to it, but black is definitely the best color (says the totally unbiased black dog owner)!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

She's beautiful, and it sounds like a perfect fit for your family too!


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## Misty02 (Dec 27, 2019)

Whiteshepherds said:


> It's not easy to get good pictures of black dogs but you've managed and she's beautiful! Glad to hear she's a good fit!!


Thank you! My son’s phone has a good camera, he used portrait mode on the ones you see well. The ones that are not so good? I took those pictures.


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## Misty02 (Dec 27, 2019)

BigOzzy2018 said:


> Beautiful great pick of color


Malinda Webber has all credit in the selection. To be honest, I was inclined toward the traditional colors. What was important to me was the temperament fit with my family, I couldn’t have asked for a better fit. The fact that Minka is absolutely gorgeous and breathtaking was just a huge bonus (you didn’t expect me to be objective, right?  )


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## Misty02 (Dec 27, 2019)

tim_s_adams said:


> She's a beautiful girl! BigOzzy beat me to it, but black is definitely the best color (says the totally unbiased black dog owner)!


Thank you! I agree! To me, she looks elegant and sophisticated. She usually picks these poses, even when just resting, as if she was a model. We actually comment and laugh, a lot, about how she thinks she’s an Egyptian princess or something. She definitely knows that she has everyone in her pocket, that is for sure.


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## Misty02 (Dec 27, 2019)

Catrinka said:


> She's a beautiful girl! I'm glad Minka has turned out to be a good fit for your family.


Thank you! She is indeed a perfect fit! The way she is with the 2 year old is mesmerizing. At times I just sit there quietly observing the interaction between the two and it is absolutely heart melting!


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## Misty02 (Dec 27, 2019)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> She's beautiful, and it sounds like a perfect fit for your family too!


Thank you! She is, indeed!


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

Misty02 said:


> Malinda Webber has all credit in the selection. To be honest, I was inclined toward the traditional colors. What was important to me was the temperament fit with my family, I couldn’t have asked for a better fit. The fact that Minka is absolutely gorgeous and breathtaking was just a huge bonus (you didn’t expect me to be objective, right?  )


Same here. I had pick of 2 and both were black. Could not be happier.


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## Misty02 (Dec 27, 2019)

BigOzzy2018 said:


> Same here. I had pick of 2 and both were black. Could not be happier.


I think that, even if Malinda lived in my house for a year and got to know my family, like her own, she wouldn’t have been able to do better at selecting the right puppy for our family. It would be impossible for me to be happier too!


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