# Looking for a Breeder



## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

Hi, 

My husband and I are looking to purchase a German Shepherd from a reputable breeder, but having no real experience with breeders, having rescued most of our dogs, we're uncertain how to make sure it really IS a good breeder, you know? So any help or recommedations would be awesome! 

Most importantly, I want a healthy, intelligent dog. 

I love the shepherds that are NOT the show breed standard. I dislike the weirdly sloped back and angled back legs, and the thin, almost collie-ish face. I like the working line shepherds better. 

I love dogs with a large build, straight back, with a large head and broad muzzle and an intelligent expression. While I adore the size, I'm also looking for a highly intelligent dog with good nerves. I used to think you'd basically always get a smart dog with a GSD, but I've learned that that just isn't so! I know quite a few people with german shepherds that just aren't that bright (though I know that's also partly because of the owners and their lack of training). I will gladly sacrifice size/look for health and intelligence, but I think I should be able to have both! Right? 

I'm interested in shutzhund, but have never done it before. I'm not sure if we'll actually go through that training with the dog or not, it's just an idea, but I'd like to have a dog that that was an option with. He will definitely be obedience trained, and I plan on doing a basic level of personal protection training with him, but all in all, he will mostly be a family dog and companion. 

We have a bit of land, and a lot of work equipment. The dog should be a good guard dog, but also good with my other dogs and cats, as well as my nieces and nephews. I DO intend to be able to take him to the dog park with our other dogs. 

I've had german shepherd mixes all of my life. When I was a kid, we had what was probably a purebred, but we never knew her history. She seemed to have gone through some kind of K9 training, but was a bit of an oddball about certain things. Even so, she was amazing. Other than that, we've only had one real purebred, and he was from a backyard breeder.









He was the most intelligent, expressive dog I've ever owned. We never had to "teach" him anything. We'd talk to him like a person, and he knew what we meant, or we didn't have to teach him at all, and he just intuitively knew what to do. As a puppy, he peed in the house ONCE. We never taught him to heel or walk on the leash, he just did it the very first time. We didn't have to teach him to walk off the leash, he'd stay within a few feet of us, and if he ventured further, he'd check with us to make sure it was okay. We could always see what he was thinking because of his ears and eyebrows. He almost always knew what we were thinking by reading our faces. We almost never raised our voice to him. His mentality was perfect, but he was severely lacking in health, and had a ton of gastrointestinal problems. He also seemed to have skin issues. 

Ivan was always carsick. He had IBD, and struggled to keep weight on, even with good quality food. Any time they gave him antibiotics, he'd get sick and lose weight again. They had him on steroids for a while. The only thing that actually helped and made a real difference was a few herbal supplements that helped soothe his tummy and aid in digestion, along with probiotics. 

About a year and a half ago, he died just before he was 4 years old, and the vets weren't sure why. They think he may have had undiagnosed leukemia, that they had taken for IBD. He just suddenly got very sick, and died after a solid week of being at the vet's. He went from a normal, healthy boy and dropped to 60lbs in one week, and they couldn't help him or save him. It was awful. All of my other shepherd mixes have lived to be 12-17 years old (Sugar was 17). Even Bruno, our English Mastiff, was over 12 years before he passed. Losing all of them has been terrible, but at least they had long lives. Losing Ivan so young was devastating.










Anyway, we have two other mixed-breed dogs we've adopted and have been dying for another german shepherd - but for once, we want to buy the dog we really want from a reputable breeder, a dog that will be HEALTHY, and also (hopefully) have the look we want. As much as we loved Ivan and his intelligence, he was quite small for a shepherd, and had other poor physical characteristics. This time, I want one as intelligent as Ivan, but also with the looks and the size I hope for. 

As I said, I love the "over-sized" shepherds with the big heads and the straight backs. We love the black sables, the bi-colors and black and dark reds the best. My husband likes the short coats, I like them all. I'm kinda into the long coats, but not when they look too teddy bear-ish. 


So what breeders do you recommend? :happyboogie:


Also, what do you think of "King Shepherds"? I know they aren't purebreds, and you're basically paying big bucks for a mutt. It's worth that to me if I can get what I want, which is all of the best german shepherd qualities (intelligence, nerves, trainability, courage, drive) with good health, and the look of a german shepherd with huge size. (Is that too good to be true?) 

What knowledge/experience do you have with King Shepherds or the breeders? Are they a tightly knit group that's actually working in a focused and controlled way to improve the breed, or are they just breeding willy-nilly for size, and charging people up the yin-yang for dogs that have lousy health and/or temperaments?


----------



## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Where are you located?


----------



## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

****, double post. Oops!


----------



## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

I have been told that I may be looking for a Czech/DDR. I realize that we may drop up to $2,000. It seems like a good trade considering the thousands and thousands of dollars and the heartachethat we paid at the vet with Ivan. In his almost 4 years of life, we spent about $10,000 at the vet. My husband and I have finally decided that it's worth it to buy a dog with a healthy history. 

The coat colors I mentioned aren't a definite deciding factor, as my husband also loves the regular black and tans. I'M the one pushing for a darker dog, haha. So don't exclude any breeders because the colors don't match what I listed!







I'm in CA, and although I'd love to meet the breeder and their dogs in person, location doesn't matter, if I can get some good recommendations. I will pay to have the dog flown, or I will fly out to the breeder to collect him.


I've been looking at: 

Briarwood Sheperds - Port Huron Michigan 

large,big, oversized german shepherds 



And although I don't think their dogs are very large: 

SchraderhausK9.com - +1.253.843.1123 PST - German Shepherd Working Dogs 




As for "King Shepherds": 

Highland Mist King Shepherds 


Do you have any info on any of them? 


I am NOT interested in what someone mentioned some breeders do, which is co-owning a dog with you, where they get to breed it whenever they like, and you aren't allowed to neuter him. I'm not sure if the breeders I posted above do this or not.


Can someone explain to me how reserving a puppy works? Like, how do you know which one you'll get? Do you get pics of them all and get to choose, or do they choose for you, or...?


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Hi there, and welcome to the board. What part of California are you in?


----------



## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

I'm in Southern California. The high desert.


----------



## Asche-zu-Staub (Apr 25, 2010)

SchraderhausK9 is your best bet out of the ones you listed. They have hip checks and their dogs are titled...titled dogs take alot of knowledge and work, so the breeders with titles on their dogs generally take more pride in the breed and keeping it as pure and healthy as possible. Sure its cool to have a big dog, but remember the over sized ones are more likely to have problems...

The first two sites kinda seemed byb-ish to me...i could be wrong though...sometimes people just cant make websites and its worth a visit just to see what its like there...

as for king shepherds, i cant give you any input on that! :-(


----------



## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

What's byb? I want a very intelligent dog, but again, he's mostly going to be a companion animal. I don't want a dog that's super dominant or anything. I am really hoping for a large size, though. I don't want him to have bad hips or elbows, but agility isn't a huge issue for us. Is it possible to get an over-sized one that won't have future hip problems?


----------



## Asche-zu-Staub (Apr 25, 2010)

blackviolet said:


> What's byb? I want a very intelligent dog, but again, he's mostly going to be a companion animal. I don't want a dog that's super dominant or anything. I am really hoping for a large size, though. I don't want him to have bad hips or elbows, but agility isn't a huge issue for us. Is it possible to get an over-sized one that won't have future hip problems?


Just make sure to look for a breeder that has the certification on hips and elbows, oversized or not. Someone posted this link earlier today that helps explain the types of breeders, very resourceful! byb stands for back yard breeder...they usually have tons of litters mostly for money purposes, and dont title or health certify their dogs.

heres this link, check it out!

Types of Breeders


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Since you're in So CA, get a hold of Anne Kent at Adler Stein Kennels-German Shepherds-German Shepherd Puppies-Working Line German Shepherds

Very good working lines, and she can also help familiarize you with SchH so you can better determine if that is really a goal or not.

I will say that some of what you are looking for is contrary to other things you are looking for. You want a huge dog, and are looking at King Shepherds and several breeders who produce oversized, lower drive/more laid back dogs primarily for the pet market, but you also want a dog with the courage, drive, hardness (and you also need athleticism) to maybe do SchH and personal protection. You aren't likely to find any dog with the working ability for those particular endeavors amongst oversized GSD or King Shepherd bloodlines, and you aren't likely to find many dogs who do have those working traits that also bring the huge size (though they do exist, they're more flukes and not intentionally bred for).

It sounds like you have a good idea of what you want in general, but also need to do some more research on potential training goals you might have and what sort of dogs are suitable for that, and you may end up needing to compromise and give up one factor or another in favor of whichever is the higher priority.


----------



## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

Oh, okay, I just wasn't used to the acronym. Why have I read that DDR's are slower to train, or don't excel at shutzhund? Why is that?

Royalair's guarantee says:





> *Pet Guantee until your pet is 6 years old:*
> 
> 1. Seller guarantees puppy or dog to be healthy at the time of sale to the best of her ability.
> 
> ...


 

Is this good? It seems to me that most breeders only give a two year guarantee? Many don't even mention DM. The part about mild HD being acceptable freaks me out, though. Is that normal or standard?​


----------



## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

Chris Wild said:


> I will say that some of what you are looking for is contrary to other things you are looking for. You want a huge dog, and are looking at King Shepherds and several breeders who produce oversized, lower drive/more laid back dogs primarily for the pet market, but you also want a dog with the courage, drive, hardness (and you also need athleticism) to maybe do SchH and personal protection. You aren't likely to find any dog with the working ability for those particular endeavors amongst oversized GSD or King Shepherd bloodlines, and you aren't likely to find many dogs who do have those working traits that also bring the huge size (though they do exist, they're more flukes and not intentionally bred for).
> 
> It sounds like you have a good idea of what you want in general, but also need to do some more research on potential training goals you might have and what sort of dogs are suitable for that, and you may end up needing to compromise and give up one factor or another in favor of whichever is the higher priority.


This is true. I want a little of everything, even if it doesn't make sense! Haha. In reality, we probably won't go through with the shutzhund training, but definitely will with the PP training. I think that I mostly love the idea of doing that training, because of the intelligence and temperament of the dogs that participate in it. I do like their drive, but I also want him to be a little laid back on occasion. I don't honestly need a super sport/working dog, but I'd like him to have some of those capabilities, even if he doesn't neccessarily excel at it. I really do love the larger sizes, but only if they have the health, intelligence and trainability as well.


----------



## ruger (May 25, 2010)

Sent you a PM.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Honestly, the larger they are, the more problems you may have healthwise. I would not support a breeder who breeds for the over the standard sizes. The athleticism of the dog is compromised and at maturity, you'll have a dog looking for shade and a drink vs a job to do. That is NOT a GSD.


----------



## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> Honestly, the larger they are, the more problems you may have healthwise. I would not support a breeder who breeds for the over the standard sizes. The athleticism of the dog is compromised and at maturity, you'll have a dog looking for shade and a drink vs a job to do. That is NOT a GSD.


Aren't your dogs over the standard?


----------



## R3C0NWARR10R (Mar 26, 2010)

German Shepherd, Dog Training, Grooming, Boarding, Breeding and Sales - GERMAN SHEPHERD DOGS VOM PEGASUS

If distance does not matter these are the breeders I got Kahn from.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

You know that two are, Doc,(by an inch on height) and we'll see on weight... but they weren't from breeders who strove for that. Nothing compared to a King or "old style"...
Mine aren't couch potatoes, they are _not_ heavy boned softies.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think you should concentrate on more what you want 'mentally' vs 'physically'.

An 80-85lb male gsd is not "small", may sound small compared to a 100lb dog, but looks can be deceiving. 

Because of your area, I'd say Chris's suggestion of Anne Kent is your best bet.

The breeder I got Masi from, has a couple of Schraderhaus dogs, I'm sure she'd be happy to share any info regarding them with you. She is "kleinenhain" here on the board. 

I also like vom banach out of WA state. 

Bigger ain't always better,,,I'd rather have a puny ugly dawg that had brains than a big pretty one who is dumber than a bag of rocks)


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

blackviolet said:


> In reality, we probably won't go through with the shutzhund training, but definitely will with the PP training.


What is your actual knowledge and experience level regarding PP training? Do you have any idea what sort of temperament and training commitment this requires?

Not getting into whether or not this is even a wise goal to have, but what makes a dog suitable for PPD and for SchH aren't all that much different. Certainly there are differences in the training and ideal temperament for each, but more matters of degree in most cases. 

You are unlikely to find a dog for either job from breeders intentionally breeding low drive, laid back, softer temperament which is typically the case for the oversized pet breeders. These dogs can indeed make excellent pets. In terms of sound, stable, intelligent, and trainable, many of the dogs from those types of breeders will fit that bill and they would be suitable as pets and for many training and service endeavors.... except protection work. Certainly giant GSDs have a great deterrent factor, and I'm sure there are some left with a natural protective instinct. But that isn't what you say you want. You say you want a dog to train in protection work. There may be one that crops up on occasion, but really you are not likely to find one with the hardness, courage and drive to do formal protection work from those bloodliens. Saying you probably won't do SchH but will "definitely" do PPD doesn't change much really. Those sort of dogs just aren't bred to have the temperament for protection work, period.

No offense meant, but it doesn't sound like you have a good handle yet on what you're looking for in terms of temperament to meet your goals, or what sort of temperament and training you would need to do PP.


----------



## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

I would also rather have a small dog that was lacking in beauty that was highly intelligent than a big dumb dog. It looks like I'm leaning towards the smaller, more "proven" dogs. But I'd like to have both.  

Besides the sites I already listed and the ones you've recommended (Adler is only 30 mins from me!), these are some of the other ones I've been looking at. Any info or experience with them?


von Hayden German Shepherds 

Timberhaus K-9 German Shepherds (360)832-6556 / 

Zu Treuen Händen 

German Shepherd Breeder | Police Dogs | Schutzhund | Washington USA | BC Canada



I know that most (if not all) of these sites have shutzhund dogs. As I stated, if I'm totally honest about my real uses and expectations of the dog, it will mostly be a family dog, but I'd like it to have all-around capabilities. I guess I should state that I don't want him to be ridiculously dominant or aggressive, and he CANNOT chase/kill my cats or the neighbor's cats. I know that part of that is training and socialization, but part of it is prey drive as well. I do intend to have him around my neices and nephews, and take him to the dog park. Am I looking at the right types of breeders for me?

Edit: To be honest, I don't actually know too much about either shutzhund or personal protection training, besides what I've read online. I was planning to go to a trainer, and I'm only looking for basic PP training.


----------



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

blackviolet said:


> I would also rather have a small dog that was lacking in beauty that was highly intelligent than a big dumb dog. It looks like I'm leaning towards the smaller, more "proven" dogs. But I'd like to have both.
> 
> Besides the sites I already listed and the ones you've recommended (Adler is only 30 mins from me!), these are some of the other ones I've been looking at. Any info or experience with them?
> 
> ...



Zu Treuen Händen I is a member of this board. I don't remember their username though.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

since anne is only 30 minutes from you, (and she's also a member of this board),,I would talk to her, I'm sure she'd be glad to show you her dogs, so you can get an idea of what you may or may not want. 

Zu Treuen Handen is also a member here, and I'm sure she'd be happy to answer any questions you may have.

I'm with Chris's post above^^^
First and foremost you need to find a breeder who will match a puppy to your lifestyle. The majority of time a dog is going to LIVE with your family, if you can't live with a certain type of dog, nothing else will fall into place.

A dog who barks is a good deterrent. 

My suggestion is to talk to Anne (alderstein) or Lisa since you listed her website.


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

The only way to really get a feel for the different types of dogs is to get out and see them and interact with them. Find breeders and clubs in your area and contact them to come visit. Most will be quite accommodating. Meet the dogs and talk with the owners of different types of GSDs. That will give you a better idea of what sort of temperament you really want, and what sort of training you might want to do. You may find that they are mutually exclusive to a point and you have to rearrange your priorities to find a different training venue that is a better fit for the type of temperament you want and vice versa.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I agree with what Chris has posted above.


----------



## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

Thanks for all of the help!  Do you have any other breeders that you'd recommend?


----------



## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> You know that two are, Doc,(by an inch on height) and we'll see on weight... but they weren't from breeders who strove for that. Nothing compared to a King or "old style"...
> Mine aren't couch potatoes, they are _not_ heavy boned softies.


So not all oversized German shepherds are couch potatoes or fat blobs. Yours look good. You painted a very broad picture with your previous description based on your experience with "large" German shepherds. 

I do not like King or the Shiloh hybrids. IMO, they are not German shepherds but strickly a shepherd hybrid.

I love your black and tan dog. :wild:


----------



## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

So I've got Schraderhaus and Timberhaus on my list. These people were also recommended to me:

GERMAN SHEPHERD PUPPIES FOR SALE - PERSONAL PROTECTION DOGS FOR SALE - FAMILY PROTECTION DOGS FOR SALE - POLICE DOGS FOR SALE - GERMAN SHEPHERDS FOR SALE

Valiantdale

http://www.vomfieldcrestshepherds.com/german-shepherd-studs.htm


Any thoughts/knowledge? 

Here's my question. I feel a little weird buying from a large kennel. It seems to me that the pups should be raised in a house, around family. Does it make a difference, you think?


----------



## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

What a terrible name, but my husband loves the black and red dogs, and she seemd to have the hip and elbow scores. There are titles, but honestly, I don't really know what they mean.  What else should I be looking for?

Welcome to Kathy's Classy K-9s!

Feel free to PM me if you have anything poor to say about any of these places.


----------



## JudynRich (Apr 16, 2010)

I live just south of Lancaster(!) in Santa Clarita. Our breeder is in Acton...not too far from you. Here is their website. Let me tell you what I like about this breeder: 1) Eric grew up w/ shepherds and loves the breed 2) they have small children and all of their puppies are well socialized w/ these boys 3) You can visit the premises and see all of their adult dogs -every single dog was let out and were very good with people 4) they are there for you if you have questions -at any time 5) their dogs are impressive 6) Ronnie (Eric's wife) is great to deal with-also very knowlegable and freindly. 
German shepherd breeders california, German shepherd puppies for sale california, german shepherd puppy breeders, california german shepherd Breeders, german shepherds breeder los angeles california, german shepherd info care


----------



## JudynRich (Apr 16, 2010)

wrong website! German shepherd breeders california, German shepherd puppies for sale california, german shepherd puppy breeders, california german shepherd Breeders, german shepherds breeder los angeles california, german shepherd info care sorry


----------



## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

East German Shepherd Breeders DDR Puppies For Sale West German Shepherds Puppy DDR German


----------



## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

Is it bad if their HD is "fast normal"?


----------



## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

Sapphire Shepherds - World Class Working German Shepherds from the Mission Valley

?


----------



## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

Okay, every time I have my list narrowed down, someone recommends another.


Thus far, my top choices are:

Schraderhaus 

Tinderhaus 

Kreative 


These are a couple that were recently recommended to me that I'd like to know more about:

Sapphire Shepherds 

Van Den Huevel


Any likes/dislikes or preferences for one breeder over another, and why? How do you know?

We've decided we definitely want a male dark black sable. As for temperament, this is how someone else decribed his dog, which really sums up almost exactly what I'm looking for:



> Fighting drive and prey drive are extremely different things. On a protection dog, prey drive can be stupid drive. Fighting drive is thinking drive, letting the target decide how it's going.....you are going down one way or another, but how hard you want to land is utterly up to you. Pogo had a huge fan club. He had massive fighting drive, but you could have put a bomb under that dog and he would not have flinched, and if he saw a scurrying kitten he'd be more likely to mother it than anything else. He'd assess everything, but would not strike unless you gave him a damned good reason, and then he did it for keeps. You could have taken him to preschool party with clowns and toy guns popping off and just walked away and left him there. If you looked at me funny, though, he was on you. That's Max's dog....getting harder and harder to find. His nerves were pure and unbendable steel, overshadowed only by killer discernment.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think you should take the suggestions of previous poster (chris and lisa I believe) that have said you should GO to the breeders closest to you , talk to them, see their dogs, go to shows/matches SEE what your interested in.

You can list kennel after kennel on here, and there will always be comments, if you go and physically see and speak to these breeders you will be more informed for an ultimate decision. 

If you want the above in a dog, the key is finding a breeder who can match YOU with a puppy who will fit into your lifestyle and expectations.

My suggestion stands, since Anne is close to you start by contacting her !!


----------



## akittrell (Mar 10, 2010)

blackviolet said:


> Sapphire Shepherds - World Class Working German Shepherds from the Mission Valley
> 
> ?


 I am not an experienced GSD owner but I really enjoyed looking at this web site. I admire that you are doing you research before buying, I did not . I got my dog from a client of the vet clinic I work in and I have a great, beautifull dog but he has recently been diagonsed with demodedtic mange which is carried in the bloodline of his parents. I did not know about this and the breeder doesn't want to accept it. Gauge will have to be neurted because of this. He is also fearfull of other men and dogs so he tries to attack them, but with the help of people on this board we will get him through these problems. Gauge is black and silver but Like you I really like the The darker colors. Good luck with finding the new member of your family. Oh yeah I agree with some of the others. If i could do it all over i would have went a visted breeders.


----------



## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I think you should take the suggestions of previous poster (chris and lisa I believe) that have said you should GO to the breeders closest to you , talk to them, see their dogs, go to shows/matches SEE what your interested in.
> 
> You can list kennel after kennel on here, and there will always be comments, if you go and physically see and speak to these breeders you will be more informed for an ultimate decision.
> 
> ...


:thumbup::thumbup:

Agreed!!! There are a bazillion breeders out there, and most of us are very happy with our dogs, and would recommend our breeder, but what is a perfect fit for me, may not be a perfect fit for another. 

You will get the best insight about that just perfect dog from breeders that have been breeding, training, and working their dogs for many years, and Anne is just that person, and is very highly regarded in the GSD breeding community.

I'm not that familiar with many of the breeder websites you post here, but there are many breeders who buy dogs already titled (so someone else has raised and trained the dog), and breed them to other dogs they have bought, already titled (so someone else has raised and trained the dog), and make great claims of the potential of the puppies, when they don't really even have any insight into the potential of the parents, since they haven't really worked with the parents. 

Breeders who raise and train and title their own dogs, and train a bazillion dogs, and hold back puppies from their own breeding to continue their lines will have much more in-depth knowledge of each and every dogs temperament, potential, strenght's and weaknesses than those who don't. 

Anne is such a person. Most of us on this board would not pass up any opportunity to go and talk to her in person.


----------



## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

In Cal, look at Anne Kent and Randy Tyson.

I would look at breeders that actually work their dogs themselves. A lot of breeders, both show and working, buy to breed. Even some on your list. Training at club does not equate to trialing, SAR, agility trials,S DA etc.


----------



## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

I did look up Adler, but besides Ikon, I just didn't get a feel for the look of her dogs. =/ 

But I can definitely go to her for training!


----------



## ThorDog (Feb 12, 2010)

Did you decide on a breeder?


----------



## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

Ha, yes, and I got my pup! 


http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/bloodlines-pedigrees/139620-just-registered-godric-d.html


Thanks!


----------

