# Aggression, not listening... help!



## Kscavicch (Oct 2, 2017)

Help! My 15 month old male Shepherd is exhibiting some behavior that my husband and I don't know how to fix... 

There have been two incidents:
1. My dog was playing with our friends dog in our yard (my dog (Jack) is extremely friendly and very playful...) Our friends dog is older and was getting annoyed by him. When the other dog started to growl at Jack my husband called Jack to get him away from the other dog. Jack didn't listen so my husband pulled Jack's collar to get him away from the other dog to separate them. When this happened Jack growled and bit my husbands hand. Jack was immediately reprimanded and put a laundry room with a gate up where he could calm down and for the other dog to leave. My husband had some minor bite marks, but obviously it could have been a lot worse. 

2. My husband put the leash on Jack to let him out in our front yard when Jack saw a groundhog and darted out the door. Jack's leash slipped through my husbands hand and Jack starts running around our neighborhood. After my husband finally tracked him down he grabbed Jack's leash from between his front legs and Jack growled and bit his hand. This time the bite was worse and drew blood from my husbands hand.

Overall Jack is very friendly with people and other dogs. We have brought him to 12 weeks of training classes and socialized him a lot. He gets tons of exercise in our fenced in back yard. We are unsure of how to get him to listen to us and stop the aggression...

Jack does not listen to us when we call him inside the house from our fenced in yard. He is so smart and knows when we are ready to leave.. any advice for that as well?


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Kscavicch said:


> Help! My 15 month old male Shepherd is exhibiting some behavior that my husband and I don't know how to fix...
> 
> There have been two incidents:
> 1. My dog was playing with our friends dog in our yard (my dog (Jack) is extremely friendly and very playful...) Our friends dog is older and was getting annoyed by him. When the other dog started to growl at Jack my husband called Jack to get him away from the other dog. Jack didn't listen so my husband pulled Jack's collar to get him away from the other dog to separate them. When this happened Jack growled and bit my husbands hand. Jack was immediately reprimanded and put a laundry room with a gate up where he could calm down and for the other dog to leave. My husband had some minor bite marks, but obviously it could have been a lot worse.
> ...


How did you reprimand? 
What was the demeanor of your husband? Was he stern and frustrated? Perhaps angry? A little rough? Correcting immediately? 
What type of training have you guys done?


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## bkernan (May 17, 2009)

Did Jack ever show signs of aggression prior to these incidents? Like food aggression, issues when you tried to take his bones/toys, etc? I'm no expert but I know that sometimes in an emotionally heightened state (re. your first example) dogs can sometimes just lash out randomly at anything that arouses their fear/is near them/tries to control the situation. For example, my last GSD was a lovebug but we were running one day and an off leash lab came charging at us after he got through his invisible fence - Harley hunkered down to defend us and when I tried to intervene he ended up (lightly) nipping my leg - he was immediately horrified/shocked he did that to me, but he wasn't in the frame of mind to separate my commands and pulling on the leash from his imminent encounter with a combative aggressive/unleashed dog.

Since two of these instances have occurred I don't know if it is the same as what I just described and perhaps there are things that may have been red flags when he was younger which is why I asked about food aggression etc. How is his OB? If he isn't listening to recall I'd leash him and let him know who's boss. No reason for him to have the luxury of controlling the situation.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Somehow he's developed a negative association with having his collar touched and feels he needs to defend himself.You can recondition him by touching his collar when offering a treat or toy.His recall can be vastly improved by playing ball with him and using your recall word(come,here,etc)when he runs back to you with the ball.Good Boy!Throw another ball.Over and over.He needs to be rewarded in spectacular fashion EVERY time he returns to you.Get him excited about coming to you,even running and getting him to chase you for a toy or treat.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

I'd like to know the answer to cloudpumps questions as well before I comment on the aggression issues. 

One thing I work on with my pup, a lot, is a solid recall and door manners. He has to sit and wait until I give a heel command to leave the door. He moves before then he gets a correction - instantly. Can't be a few seconds later cuz now he doesn't know why he's being corrected. We loop back around and do the same thing - he sits and waits while I close the gate/door and lock up then I give him the free command and he gets a reward. We do this every day. Several times a day, even if we don't go anywhere.

12 weeks of obedience was a good start but from your statements about him not listening I'm going to guess you don't keep up on it, or you only practice in one or two spots with limited distraction. Break out the long line and go somewhere uncomfortable and distracting and work on that recall. That should be your most solid and perfect command because it's one that could save your dog.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

I've never reprimanded a dog that took off when I finally caught them. Always happy and full of praise and rewards. No matter how sweaty or out of breath.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

To the questions @cloudpump asked I would add;
How long have you had this dog? Also, what exercise and activities does he get on an average day? I know you said you have a large space for him, but what activities do you do together daily? Do you have any other issues with him that weren't mentioned like gaurding food or toys? Or anything else?

The first scenario you mentioned does not sound uncharacteristic for a higher drive dog. I would probably have opted to let the older dog "school" Jack on that one. The second makes me think this behavior has been going on for long enough for the dog to KNOW that growling and biting is a "workable solution" for the situation...and that could be a little more of an issue....


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

One comment when I started typing my response...7 or 8 when it posted. Typing on the phone is soo slow....


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## bkernan (May 17, 2009)

cloudpump said:


> I've never reprimanded a dog that took off when I finally caught them. Always happy and full of praise and rewards. No matter how sweaty or out of breath.


This a million times over. I don?t think my response echoed this sentiment but My parents messed up the recall command with my gsd from growing up (Dad seemed to think berated the dog for running way when he finally came back would work ugh!) that yes, it?s so important to make coming back to you when you ask the best thing ever. Recall is so important and is the foundation for control and other OB.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

tim_s_adams said:


> To the questions @cloudpump asked I would add;
> How long have you had this dog? Also, what exercise and activities does he get on an average day? I know you said you have a large space for him, but what activities do you do together daily? Do you have any other issues with him that weren't mentioned like gaurding food or toys? Or anything else?
> 
> The first scenario you mentioned does not sound uncharacteristic for a higher drive dog. I would probably have opted to let the older dog "school" Jack on that one. The second makes me think this behavior has been going on for long enough for the dog to KNOW that growling and biting is a "workable solution" for the situation...and that could be a little more of an issue....


I agree with allowing dogs to correct each other. Only fear I would have is, at 15 mos, no longer a puppy. He might ramp up and get in a fight


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I was raised in a country setting...dog fights happened, and we're a given. So, perhaps my view is a bit different than the mainstream...I see nothing wrong with them. Dog's seldom get seriously hurt by them, unless you have a city dog fighting a country dog. I add that caveat because I took a dog, who thought he was a tough guy in the city, to live in the country. The first few hostile encounters he had nearly killed him! 

Anyway, I do think that most people do not help their dogs by judging them on human terms. Dogs are rough with one another, but usually not harmful. 

That said, seems like the ball is in the OP's corner, lots of questions pending....


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

tim_s_adams said:


> I was raised in a country setting...dog fights happened, and we're a given. So, perhaps my view is a bit different than the mainstream...I see nothing wrong with them. Dog's seldom get seriously hurt by them, unless you have a city dog fighting a country dog. I add that caveat because I took a dog, who thought he was a tough guy in the city, to live in the country. The first few hostile encounters he had nearly killed him!
> 
> Anyway, I do think that most people do not help their dogs by judging them on human terms. Dogs are rough with one another, but usually not harmful.
> 
> That said, seems like the ball is in the OP's corner, lots of questions pending....


Once upon a time I lived where we could just open the door and let the dogs out (OK, The rangers didn't like it. They warned us if they saw a pack of dogs taking down a deer, the dogs would suffer for it). I do think that way too many dogs don't learn the manners of their kind because they can't meet and greet naturally. I don't think dog parks are a good substitute either. It is too confined. I don't know of a good answer to this. I think dogs in general suffer because they aren't trained well, get stuck in back yards and grow bored and jaded, and then labeled "bad dog" it just spirals down and down. 

<getting off of soap box>


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

The dog does not respect your husband, the question is whether the reason is the dog or your husband. This dog needs to go to obedience training with you and your husband with a good trainer. He sounds like he sees himself as on equal status with at least your husband and maybe both of you.( By obedience training, I'm not talking about that fun puppy stuff people take their pups to and tell people he has obedience training, I'm talking about training where he will reliably sit, down, stay, heel, come, every time you command him for extended periods of time. This type of training clearly sets boundaries and puts the leadership equation in the right position. Also, he will reliably execute these commands even with distractions present like other dogs or an open gate to he outside.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Kscavicch said:


> Help! My 15 month old male Shepherd is exhibiting some behavior that my husband and I don't know how to fix...
> 
> There have been two incidents:
> 1. My dog was playing with our friends dog in our yard (my dog (Jack) is extremely friendly and very playful...) Our friends dog is older and was getting annoyed by him. When the other dog started to growl at Jack my husband called Jack to get him away from the other dog. Jack didn't listen so my husband pulled Jack's collar to get him away from the other dog to separate them. When this happened Jack growled and bit my husbands hand. Jack was immediately reprimanded and put a laundry room with a gate up where he could calm down and for the other dog to leave. My husband had some minor bite marks, but obviously it could have been a lot worse.
> ...


Oh ... a "door bolter" also ... hmm, well bigger fish to fry ... so I'll let that go (Insider thing.) 

So step one ... you guys are gonna have to take a big step back and chill if you want to get this "crap" under control! I do see you sent him somewhere for 12 weeks and this is what you got??? Sorry but you spent a lot of money to discover this, it would seem. :





But don't sweat it your not the first one to figure that one out. Been there done ... that did not work?? But I figured it out, less is more, you need to step back and start over. Two Week Shutdown, Crate Train the Dog and use a drag leash indoors. And you will need to be able to walk this dog (the door bolting ...makes it sound like that is an issue???)

At any rate links in links here but it's a good start. :
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/8006017-post7.html

And Welcome Aboard ... sorry it's a bumpy ride but take a deep breath and chill ...you can't help your dog by fighting with him ... I tried that one also ...it didn't work. So no need to reinvent the wheel as it were.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> The dog does not respect your husband, the question is whether the reason is the dog or your husband. This dog needs to go to obedience training with you and your husband with a good trainer. He sounds like he sees himself as on equal status with at least your husband and maybe both of you.( By obedience training, I'm not talking about that fun puppy stuff people take their pups to and tell people he has obedience training, I'm talking about training where he will reliably sit, down, stay, heel, come, every time you command him for extended periods of time. This type of training clearly sets boundaries and puts the leadership equation in the right position. Also, he will reliably execute these commands even with distractions present like other dogs or an open gate to he outside.


Oh Cliff I could not agree with you more .

incident #1 -- the dog continues to badger the older dog who is communicating that the Jack dog had crossed a line and enough was enough .

"Our friends dog is older and was getting annoyed by him. When the other dog started to growl at Jack"

Only then did husband try to remove dog , who was not listening .

"Jack didn't listen so my husband pulled Jack's collar to get him away from the other dog"

that was what lead up to the first bite . The dog got into a super excited mode , no inhibitions , neither internal nor external and indulged himself . How dare someone interfere . Chomp.

second incident - basically the same . A dog with no control , internal or external , taking advantage of permissive , owners who probably cater to his every wish and ask for nothing back , not even a bit of respect . 

Dog is wild with excitement , tuning everything out , beside the prey-chase . When caught he is upset with his plans being foiled . Chomp.

Sorry . The dog doesn't come into the house when called out of his yard. How dare you disrupt the dogs fun?

" We are unsure of how to get him to listen to us and stop the aggression"

never mind stop the aggression --- you are unsure . Don't be a door mat . Get some firm house rules. No excuses . The dog isn't aggressive -- he this isn't fear and it isn't fight . He protests on control being put on him.

Oh yeah , puppy-dog , time for a taking your attitude a peg down. 

Obedience . As Cliff said . Real obedience training . Train as if you were going to title in the basic AKC/CKC companion dog certificate -- which includes on and off leash , work with handler and work under control in a multi-dog lineup. 

Have a goal in mind . 

The dog might have eye popping , jaw dropping, writhing like a snake , or jumping like a wild bronco when he gets his first lessons on lead . Do not let him get away with anything.

I have seen a dog have a hissy fit when on collar and lead , rolling around and around on the floor. The handler , as instructed (although he was almost in tears seeing his "baby" not happy) 
rode it out . 
Eventually the dog got up , took a full body shake and stood there as if he was saying "oh well "
and then moved along with the handler. 

He learned that the tactic did not work . So he abandoned it. 

Learning came slowly . The dog improved . The dog became connected . The dog became happy because there was order , he knew what was expected of him, he earned appreciation .

go right back to square one.


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

carmspack said:


> The dog might have eye popping , jaw dropping, writhing like a snake , or jumping like a wild bronco when he gets his first lessons on lead . Do not let him get away with anything.
> 
> I have seen a dog have a hissy fit when on collar and lead , rolling around and around on the floor. The handler , as instructed (although he was almost in tears seeing his "baby" not happy)
> rode it out .
> ...


This is so, so crucial. My SIL's Golden throws tantrums like this. If you let her have her way, she won't do what you have asked because she knows you won't push the issue. The dog knows who she can or can't manipulate. Ironically at a training session when her dog started doing this, she knew she had to push through. The trainer commented, "Oh, this dog has you trained!" and then told her not to force it. I found it hilarious and contradictory.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@ OP....your dog does not sound like he has major behavior problems...rather leadership and training issues. As one who has dealt with literally hundreds of behavior dogs over the years, I don't see your dog as one who would not benefit from leadership, and obedience which entails enforcement of commands and learning to live on your terms instead of his terms. Many GS will run the show when they are not given boundaries, but once they learn to comply in training, then things like bolting out the gate become nonexistent. That's not something hard to extinguish with good foundation training.


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## Kscavicch (Oct 2, 2017)

cloudpump said:


> How did you reprimand?
> What was the demeanor of your husband? Was he stern and frustrated? Perhaps angry? A little rough? Correcting immediately?
> What type of training have you guys done?



He was probably stern and frustrated at that point. I know for a fact he was not praising him or anything like that (after reading other threads I see that might be a good idea next time...) 


We did 6 weeks of puppy kindergarten at a facility (one hour session each week with my husband and I.) Then we did 6 weeks of manners training level 1 with one private lesson.


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## Kscavicch (Oct 2, 2017)

bkernan said:


> Did Jack ever show signs of aggression prior to these incidents? Like food aggression, issues when you tried to take his bones/toys, etc? I'm no expert but I know that sometimes in an emotionally heightened state (re. your first example) dogs can sometimes just lash out randomly at anything that arouses their fear/is near them/tries to control the situation. For example, my last GSD was a lovebug but we were running one day and an off leash lab came charging at us after he got through his invisible fence - Harley hunkered down to defend us and when I tried to intervene he ended up (lightly) nipping my leg - he was immediately horrified/shocked he did that to me, but he wasn't in the frame of mind to separate my commands and pulling on the leash from his imminent encounter with a combative aggressive/unleashed dog.
> 
> Since two of these instances have occurred I don't know if it is the same as what I just described and perhaps there are things that may have been red flags when he was younger which is why I asked about food aggression etc. How is his OB? If he isn't listening to recall I'd leash him and let him know who's boss. No reason for him to have the luxury of controlling the situation.




The only time I have ever seen him growl or show his teeth was when we took away a spoon he got out of the dishwasher that had food on it. He is not food aggressive in any other way- we can hand feed him out of his bowl and take away his bones, toys, balls, etc with no problem. He only seemed to get upset over us taking away something more exciting to him.


What does OB mean? Sorry I'm new to these posts!


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## Kscavicch (Oct 2, 2017)

dogma13 said:


> Somehow he's developed a negative association with having his collar touched and feels he needs to defend himself.You can recondition him by touching his collar when offering a treat or toy.His recall can be vastly improved by playing ball with him and using your recall word(come,here,etc)when he runs back to you with the ball.Good Boy!Throw another ball.Over and over.He needs to be rewarded in spectacular fashion EVERY time he returns to you.Get him excited about coming to you,even running and getting him to chase you for a toy or treat.


Thank you! I think this would be a great way to train him. He LOVES playing ball so that would be wonderful positive reinforcement.


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## Kscavicch (Oct 2, 2017)

thegooseman90 said:


> I'd like to know the answer to cloudpumps questions as well before I comment on the aggression issues.
> 
> One thing I work on with my pup, a lot, is a solid recall and door manners. He has to sit and wait until I give a heel command to leave the door. He moves before then he gets a correction - instantly. Can't be a few seconds later cuz now he doesn't know why he's being corrected. We loop back around and do the same thing - he sits and waits while I close the gate/door and lock up then I give him the free command and he gets a reward. We do this every day. Several times a day, even if we don't go anywhere.
> 
> 12 weeks of obedience was a good start but from your statements about him not listening I'm going to guess you don't keep up on it, or you only practice in one or two spots with limited distraction. Break out the long line and go somewhere uncomfortable and distracting and work on that recall. That should be your most solid and perfect command because it's one that could save your dog.



I appreciate the advice.. Does your dog get tempted to run if he sees another dog/animal? Jack doesn't necessarily dart out the door unless he sees an animal. We certainly need to work on door manners..


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

cloudpump said:


> I agree with allowing dogs to correct each other. Only fear I would have is, at 15 mos, no longer a puppy. He might ramp up and get in a fight


Dogs would imply ...not a puppy??? If one is going to allow "Dog's" to correct each other ... I'd say "Good Luck With That."


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Dogs would imply ...not a puppy??? If one is going to allow "Dog's" to correct each other ... I'd say "Good Luck With That."


It happens. And having non dog fighting breeds helps.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

cloudpump said:


> It happens. And having non dog fighting breeds helps.


Aww well diss "Fighting Breeds" if you will. But in the "real world" ... it is because of my work with my "formerly D/A" American Band Dawg, that I still have the full use of left my hand! 

It was because of my work with Gunther my Band Dawg, that I still have full use of my left hand hand today! Five freaking Pack Fights and Rocky ... my OS GSD "ALWAYS" started them!!! And the last fight ... even with ... 116 lbs of OS GSD on his back ... I shouted down! And my American Band Dawg (Gunther) even with 116 lbs of OS GSD on his back ... "complied!" And Rocky ... my OS GSD thought "Hot Damm" I got him now!! 

So yeah ... that did not work?? Time to step in and in getting them apart ... I messed up!! And my left hand wound up in my Band Dawgs, mouth!!! My first ... thought, was "Crap this is gonna hurt!" But you know what, ... as soon as Gunther (A/B) realized that he had my hand in his, mouth ... even with ... 116 lbs of OS, GSD on his back ... he let go! I still have full use of my left hand today, because of Gunther's training so ... yeah tell me about me ...." about fighting breeds!" 

I had zero issues with "Fighting Breeds" myself ... it's only because ... I ventured outside of the "Bully Realm" ... that I am even here. Rank Drive issues and H/A issues ... I did not have to deal with any of that "crap" ... when I was in "Bully in World" ... just saying.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Aww well diss "Fighting Breeds" if you will. But in the "real world" ... it is because of my work with my "formerly D/A" American Band Dawg, that I still have the full use of left my hand!
> 
> It was because of my work with Gunther my Band Dawg, that I still have full use of my left hand hand today! Five freaking Pack Fights and Rocky ... my OS GSD "ALWAYS" started them!!! And the last fight ... even with ... 116 lbs of OS GSD on his back ... I shouted down! And my American Band Dawg (Gunther) even with 116 lbs of OS GSD on his back ... "complied!" And Rocky ... my OS GSD thought "Hot Damm" I got him now!!
> 
> ...


Ok. What I was implying was, having a dog correct a dog happens. Having a dog fighting breed, things often escalate because they often don't back down. I'm glad your hand didn't get crushed in his mouth, for the sake of the forum. Maybe a level headed dog. Not a bash on your breed, don't worry, I was just thinking your experience, is not the same as mine.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Aww well diss "Fighting Breeds" if you will. But in the "real world" ... it is because of my work with my "formerly D/A" American Band Dawg, that I still have the full use of left my hand!
> 
> It was because of my work with Gunther my Band Dawg, that I still have full use of my left hand hand today! Five freaking Pack Fights and Rocky ... my OS GSD "ALWAYS" started them!!! And the last fight ... even with ... 116 lbs of OS GSD on his back ... I shouted down! And my American Band Dawg (Gunther) even with 116 lbs of OS GSD on his back ... "complied!" And Rocky ... my OS GSD thought "Hot Damm" I got him now!!
> 
> ...


And of course your gsd had human aggression. It's part of the breed standard. To protect and guard done with aggression.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

cloudpump said:


> Ok. What I was implying was, having a dog correct a dog happens. Having a dog fighting breed, things often escalate because they often don't back down. I'm glad your hand didn't get crushed in his mouth, for the sake of the forum. Maybe a level headed dog. Not a bash on your breed, don't worry, I was just thinking your experience, is not the same as mine.


Yes but ... I'm "assuming" that your "assumption is" that a in a multi dog household ... the "Dog Fighting Breed" is always at fault??? 

The only dog that, I actually turned to a "Pro" for help with ... was my "American Band Dawg!" And he said "dog reactive not, dog aggressive??" What ever ... no "Dog Parks" ignore other dogs ... worked out fine. So much so that it is what I do ... to this day ... I trust "No One!" My Band Dawg ...never harmed another dog in his life! And yes you are correct as long as the other dog would "Back Dog" ...no problem ...but if the other Dog ... did not ...it was "Game ON!" I don't need the hassle, ignore "Training" it was! I've never looked back ... one does not need a "Pro" to train that ... worked out fine.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

cloudpump said:


> And of course your gsd had human aggression. It's part of the breed standard. To protect and guard done with aggression.


LOL ... OK ...you got me! I guess "big furry dog with a pointy face??? Was not all en-compressing?? Worked out well in the long run.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

The way I understand it, true dog aggression in a German Shepherd is rather uncommon. That is one of the reasons German Shepherds are so popular. 

A dog is not a dog and to train a GSD and to have the same expectations behaviorally the same one would an Irish Setter or a Shih Tzu or a Saluki despite their respective breed differences doesn't make sense to me and also defeats the purpose for the existence of different breeds.

To simplify, if I wanted an all around friendly dog, I would not opt for a breed with the propensity for human aggression, like a GSD, any more than I would a bully breed with the propensity for dog or animal aggression. It is the purpose for which they have been bred.

Of course, there are always exceptions to the rule.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

cliffson1 said:


> I'm talking about training where he will reliably sit, down, stay, heel, come, every time you command him for extended periods of time. This type of training clearly sets boundaries and puts the leadership equation in the right position. Also, he will reliably execute these commands even with distractions present like other dogs or an open gate to he outside.


Aww well ... I know enough about what you do to "respect your" advise but ... I have to say from first hand experience ... I gotta go with Larry Krhon, "formal Obedience, Training will not solve behavioral issues." Everything you outlined ... Rocky did! And it made "Zero Difference!" Formal Obedience training ... was not where his issues were??? If they were ... i'd have not got them stitches ... breaking up "Pack Fights!" 

Behavioral issues ... start from the home, Rules/Structure and Limitations is "apparently the solution??" If Formal obedience training, was all it took to get badly behaved dogs ... under control I would not be here.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

cliffson1 said:


> @ OP....your dog does not sound like he has major behavior problems...rather leadership and training issues.


Just wanted to quote this excerpt from Cliff for context. As you can see here Chip he doesn't think the dog has major behavioral issues. And I agree



Chip18 said:


> cliffson1 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm talking about training where he will reliably sit, down, stay, heel, come, every time you command him for extended periods of time. This type of training clearly sets boundaries and puts the leadership equation in the right position. Also, he will reliably execute these commands even with distractions present like other dogs or an open gate to he outside.
> ...


As other members have pointed out it's just a poorly handled bratty dog. Who hasnt seen or dealt with one of those at some point? He's probably got the owners a little shook up and I think, as do some other members, it's time to put the brakes on him. 12 weeks is a good start but you gotta keep up on that training. Now you have to redo that foundation work. I think at this point, if you haven't already, its a good time to break out some compulsion tools and add that to his routine.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

IMHO getting this dog to stop biting and mind would be relatively easy. But if he's put back into the same environment I'd guess that in less than a month he'll be acting the way he is now. These dogs need structure and leadership yes, but they also need exersize and mental stimulation. Training the dog is the easy part...


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Hey Chip, I think our " first hand experiences" are vastly different, so it makes sense that we may view things differently.?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

tim_s_adams said:


> IMHO getting this dog to stop biting and mind would be relatively easy. But if he's put back into the same environment I'd guess that in less than a month he'll be acting the way he is now. These dogs need structure and leadership yes, but they also need exersize and mental stimulation. Training the dog is the easy part...


I always thought training was mental stimulation, and once formal training stops the continuing of the commands should continue. All dogs need exercise, without a doubt.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

If the dog had come when called, in both instances, there would be no collar grab and no redirect. 

Train the dog to come when called. Every time. Takes work, yes. But do that, and so many problems are solved, in so many dogs.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

tim_s_adams said:


> IMHO getting this dog to stop biting and mind would be relatively easy. But if he's put back into the same environment I'd guess that in less than a month he'll be acting the way he is now. These dogs need structure and leadership yes, but they also need exersize and mental stimulation. Training the dog is the easy part...


Exercise and Mental Stimulation ... is not incompatible with "Rules/Structure and Limitations???" I don't know why people "assume" they are but whatever .... A dog should also be "Taught" to cope with doing ... "Nothing." 

And yes ... the dogs life needs to change and all issues begin in the home. This dog and this owner have already failed ... "Training is Easy." The second bite was a result of the dog "Bolting The Door???"

I'd make no, demands of this dog for at least "Two Weeks." Kennel up, Sit, Stay, Come and OK ... would be about as much as I'd say to him for that time. And an occasional "Good Boy" when he was. And yes, we would "walk." 

Oh well ... I'm still waiting for the first post to come in (on two boards) where and owner states ... "My dog walks well on a loose, leash, I've done Sit on the Dog and he's trained in "Place" and he's jumping on people and biting the crap out of everyone?? I've never seen that to date?? But the year's not over.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

yup

Chip said -- 
I'd make no, demands of this dog for at least "Two Weeks." Kennel up, Sit, Stay, Come and OK ... would be about as much as I'd say to him for that time. And an occasional "Good Boy" when he was. And yes, we would "walk." 

Oh well ... I'm still waiting for the first post to come in (on two boards) where and owner states ... "My dog walks well on a loose, leash, I've done Sit on the Dog and he's trained in "Place" and he's jumping on people and biting the crap out of everyone?? I've never seen that to date?? But the year's not over. 

the re-start would include all that Chip said -- and eliminating other interaction . Meaning , the interaction which schmoozes with the dog , gives the dogs treats , gives the dog fun like playing with the neighbor dog . 
No doting . 
This brings up important aspects which I'll end up putting on the "early socialization" sticky.

When the dog walks -- the dogs walks WITH the owner -- mannerly or not at all. The dog is not the leader , going ahead , rubber necking for dogs or squirrels , in his own world.

The owner is not on the cell phone or texting .

there has to be a connection . 

At the moment there is not one . 

that is the first step to the fix.

Is there anything wrong with the dog? I would say no. Just a dog recognizing a weak link and taking charge to his benefit .


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Oh well ... I'm still waiting for the first post to come in (on two boards) where and owner states ... "My dog walks well on a loose, leash, I've done Sit on the Dog and he's trained in "Place" and he's jumping on people and biting the crap out of everyone?? I've never seen that to date?? But the year's not over.


I think we see it all the time, it is just not called "place" or "sit on the dog" or "loose leash walking". These things have been around for a long time, they just have different names applied to them today. 

Ask somebody what happens when they tell their dog to "kennel" or "crate" or "go to bed" and you will find that the dog does the exact same thing that your dog does when you tell it to "place". 

People have been going to parks or stood outside of stores or even sat in their cars in busy areas to "socialize" or "expose" their dogs, no different than your "Sit on the dog". 

"With me" or "Heel" or "Here" are some of the old fashioned terms for "loose leash walking". 

Same commands, same principles, just old terms vs new terms, and yet have little to do with a dog jumping on people or human aggression.

Oh! By the way, all of my dogs loose leash walk, kennel on command and have sat with me and watched the world go by for exposure or just simply from me stopping to chat with a friend. Most of them will "bite the crap" out of most people given the right circumstances and most of them will jump on a person that wants to pet them.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Oh well ... I'm still waiting for the first post to come in (on two boards) where and owner states ... "My dog walks well on a loose, leash, I've done Sit on the Dog and he's trained in "Place" and he's jumping on people and biting the crap out of everyone?? I've never seen that to date?? But the year's not over.


These videos happen all the time. My puppy in fact is going through "sit on the dog". I go to the outlet mall, but I call it exposure. 
Place is a long down/stay in one spot, or sending the dog to another room. 
Just because it has a new moniker, doesn't mean it's a revolutionary idea.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Kscavicch said:


> He was probably stern and frustrated at that point. I know for a fact he was not praising him or anything like that (after reading other threads I see that might be a good idea next time...)
> 
> 
> We did 6 weeks of puppy kindergarten at a facility (one hour session each week with my husband and I.) Then we did 6 weeks of manners training level 1 with one private lesson.


*I suggest NOT following advice about aggression on the internet.* It's a serious issue and if you go about it the wrong way you can make the problem a lot worse. 

Find a GOOD trainer familiar with the breed and dealing with aggression.

Lots of posters here quickly jumped on the "the dog doesn't respect your husband, the dog needs more training, etc" banwagon

And yes, I do believe your dog will benefit from an obedience refresher course, absolutely! But I am not convinced that the aggression you are dealing with is purely out of a lack of respect from the dog.

It could be just plain and simple bad handling on your husband's part. (Not saying anything bad about your DH! Just that he might have some room for improvement in dealing with dog behavior  )



> He was probably stern and frustrated at that point


This here is a cause for concern. 

Common scenario: Dog is misbehaving, Owner gets frustrated, out of frustration the owner grabs the collar roughly, dog out of fear/pain _defends_ himself.

Dealing with defensive type of aggression is different than dealing with rank drive aggression. 

My own GSD is a more "defensive" dog. He is well trained though. He has gotten his BH. He has absolutely reliable off leash obedience. He will heel off leash next to me for miles. I can call him away from wild life and other dogs with merely a whistle... BUT! If I give him too hard of a leash correction or were to grab him roughly while visibly upset... he WILL lay teeth on me. He's sensitive and civil. That's the genetic hand we were dealt. 

See? Each bit of advice you are getting is going to be biased. People are going to project their own experiences onto your dog... and that might not be a fit to what is actually going on with your dog. 

NO ONE here has seen your dog. They have not seen the interaction between your dog and husband. They can't read your dog's or your husband's body language. They have no insight to the bond between your husband and dog. There just is NOT enough info to really "diagnose" the problem. You don't know which of the posters here have been training for 20 + years and who is an arm chair quarter back who has never actually dealt with problem dogs.

And even worse... no one here can give you live on the spot feed back while you are working your dog. Timing is crucial in a lot of training. Body language is crucial.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

My first post was to go to trainer for obedience The dog never learned obedience in the first place,( leastways not the way I instruct it), doing this process IF you have real aggression issues in the dog, they will surface and a good trainer will help you or refer you to somebody who can help. Based on the situations described and the frequency of the incidents, this sounds to me much more like a situation that leadership will correct as well as owner education. But as said previously there is no substitution for a trainer looking at issue first hand.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

voodoolamb said:


> *I suggest NOT following advice about aggression on the internet.*


Well ... the thing is ... "Some people" can fix there dogs with advise they get from the "internet." 

And I can state that as a "Fact" because ... I am "That Guy!" And I don't presuppose what people can or can not do! As I did it myself with my "Pack Fighting" "H/A" OS GSD and I'm not that special! 

I fixed my dog myself ... with an article, I read over the "INTERNET" ... 
Leerburg | Who Pets Your Puppy or Dog


And while that is not exactly a H/A dog protocol ... that is how I used it. I just put a more aggressive spin on "Hands Freaking Off My Dog!" Bubble dog protocol, worked out fine. 

And by and large the feed back from owners "I get" ... is "Thank You" for being anal ... but you know ... you won't hear from most of them. They aren't interested in doing stuff like "this." 

But yes ... not everyone can "fix" there dog with advise over the internet, but "some can." And as I am want to say ... there is "always that guy" they just need a direction.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

cliffson1 said:


> My first post was to go to trainer for obedience The dog never learned obedience in the first place,( leastways not the way I instruct it), doing this process IF you have real aggression issues in the dog, they will surface and a good trainer will help you or refer you to somebody who can help. Based on the situations described and the frequency of the incidents, this sounds to me much more like a situation that leadership will correct as well as owner education. But as said previously there is no substitution for a trainer looking at issue first hand.


I ... don't disagree but the thing is ... if one knows "Nothing??" All trainers ... look pretty much the same. And most owners ... "struggling with issues" or gonna go to the first "Gentle Paws" trainer they see??

12 weeks of training and still a Door Bolting, owner biting dogs would suggest to me ... that this is the case here??? The OP tried and they found judging, by there a post here ... a "Crap Trainer???" Most likely as you know ... that happens all the time??? 

"I" ... was not willing to take that chance myself, so I did it myself and I found it to be not that hard?? And yep I made some "comprises" "ignore other dogs" and "hands off" as pretty much a life style choice ... ever interaction with a stranger was carefully considered! I made "Good Choices" for my dog! IF that is to much for an owner then yes ... "Find a Trainer" but they best grt that choice right ... "apparently??"


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I think we see it all the time, it is just not called "place" or "sit on the dog" or "loose leash walking". These things have been around for a long time, they just have different names applied to them today.
> 
> Ask somebody what happens when they tell their dog to "kennel" or "crate" or "go to bed" and you will find that the dog does the exact same thing that your dog does when you tell it to "place".
> 
> ...





cloudpump said:


> These videos happen all the time. My puppy in fact is going through "sit on the dog". I go to the outlet mall, but I call it exposure.
> Place is a long down/stay in one spot, or sending the dog to another room.
> Just because it has a new moniker, doesn't mean it's a revolutionary idea.


Whatever ... same old bit ... people that already know how to train a dog ... telling folks how simple it is???
Tylor Muto and his conversational leash work is simply a more gentle variation of "Koehler's Long Line Short line work" as I view it??? 







And "Place" yesss ... as I understand "Place" is an implied "Stay??" If one trains "Place" they don't need to train a "Stay??" Whatever I train "Place" and I also train "Stay and Down" as separate commands. In the "real world" when crap goes down ... I'm not telling my dog "Place!" I'm telling them "Down or Stay!" I train "Place" for specific reasons ... if crap goes down I don't want my dog thinking "Place" .... uh where exactly??? 

All I do, is based on "KISS" it seems to work out just fine??? I have "zero" interest in reinventing the wheel??? Others are of course free to do as they see fit.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I don't see people who know how to train dogs telling others how simple it is, quite the opposite. 

I am also still struggling to understand why somebody would want to try to "fix" inherent traits in a breed as if that breed were broken.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I don't see people who know how to train dogs telling others how simple it is, quite the opposite.


Well ... I do but whatever ... it's not important.



MineAreWorkingline said:


> I am also still struggling to understand why somebody would want to try to "fix" inherent traits in a breed as if that breed were broken.


Hmm OK that's a "spin??" Fixed ... did not change ... who my dog was??? 

He simply ... did not like "strangers" I was good with that ... he had no requirement to like anyone save for myself and Marilyn and select family and friend. Beyond that the only requirement was to be safe in public and civil. And he did fine with that, Rocky was never gonna be a "Struddell" I was good with that ... I excepted him for who he was ... no big deal. A dog that by nature is people friendly ... is pretty clear to see??? So sure meet and greet away, no big deal. But if a dog is not"people friendly" ... then an owner needs to accept that and change there exceptions! 

Or you know ... find a trainer to bend that dog to there "exceptions." That is not how I roll. I have no issue with, on a two dog walk "saying," yes stranger you can pet this one but not the other. No big deal, I changed "nothing" about who "Rocky" was but I did show him how I expected him to behave around strangers ... no big deal.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I guess I am mistaken then as I thought I have seen posted many times how one "fixed" HA.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I guess I am mistaken then as I thought I have seen posted many times how one "fixed" HA.


Not biting the crap out of people, for "me" is "fixed." My standards are high but my goals are modest ... that makes them easier to achieve ..."KISS" is how I roll ... works out fine. 

If that does not work for people ... then you know "Find a Trainer." I'm good with that ... I do what I do for those who can. Pretty much that simple. :grin2:


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I didn't know your dog "bit the crap out of people". I thought he growled at visitors to your house one time. My bad.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I didn't know your dog "bit the crap out of people". I thought he growled at visitors to your house one time. My bad.


He never was given the "opportunity," to bite the crap out of anyone ... "because" he growled at visitors "once!"

He did not have thumbs ... so he's not gonna write me a *"Dear Dad ... I don't particularly care for this situation, can you please rectify the situation Thanks, ... memo... ."*

So no, he did not do that, cause you know ... he had no thumbs! So yes, he growled "once" and I took him at his word! He'd already beat me down with the "Rank Drive" crap ... it was not gonna happen again, with people! Sorry ... if me getting it done right, out the gate, without a "Trainer" is somehow offensive??? 

I took him at his word and made good choices for him and I showed him, how I expected him to behave around people. If he did not much care for people ... fine! He had no requirement to do so, his only requirement was to be civil. And he got that ... that was more than good enough! I did not change who he was ... worked out fine.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Chip18 said:


> I ... don't disagree but the thing is ... if one knows "Nothing??" All trainers ... look pretty much the same. And most owners ... "struggling with issues" or gonna go to the first "Gentle Paws" trainer they see??
> 
> 12 weeks of training and still a Door Bolting, owner biting dogs would suggest to me ... that this is the case here??? The OP tried and they found judging, by there a post here ... a "Crap Trainer???" Most likely as you know ... that happens all the time???
> 
> "I" ... was not willing to take that chance myself, so I did it myself and I found it to be not that hard?? And yep I made some "comprises" "ignore other dogs" and "hands off" as pretty much a life style choice ... ever interaction with a stranger was carefully considered! I made "Good Choices" for my dog! IF that is to much for an owner then yes ... "Find a Trainer" but they best grt that choice right ... "apparently??"


I think you are assuming a lot of things based on limited exposure....Petsmart obedience is not real training because most of those people aren't trainers. To me a handler has trained primarily their own dogs albeit some to very high level....while a trainer has worked with many many dogs over many years, to have the necessary experience to have seen something enough times in different variations to instantly or instinctively know the approach that has been successful most often. This also means that a trainer knows and has successfully used many different methods or approaches based on what they read from the dog. Lastly, you can't learn to read a dog from anything BUT extensive experiences in on hands work. But again, I know a lot of good trainers out there, but like anything else you have to do the due diligence to make sure they have the knowledge and experience....but if the issue is serious enough that ( due diligence) should be least of problems.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I only get offended when somebody disrespects my breed for its positive traits.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> What does OB mean? Sorry I'm new to these posts!


Ob is obedience. The type of obedience training you'll be looking for is going to be very structured and repetitive. Its not so much about teaching a dog to sit, but why he sits or downs, and heels. All those things. Removing grey areas in his mind that lead to bolting out the door. Its all connected and that's how you generally approach getting it under control.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Steve Strom said:


> Ob is obedience. The type of obedience training you'll be looking for is going to be very structured and repetitive. Its not so much about teaching a dog to sit, but why he sits or downs, and heels. All those things. Removing grey areas in his mind that lead to bolting out the door. Its all connected and that's how you generally approach getting it under control.


Exactly...as I explained to a student last night; each command has an active and passive component. Take sit for instance, the active is the act of the dog sitting;( which most pet people and pet trainers accept as the dog learning the command), the passive is for the dog to remain in that sit position until released by another command or freed up by owner/handler. This means for reasonable amount of time( minutes) and or distractions. If the dog can't or won't do the active and passive, then to me they don't know the command. IF they know that command or down or stay or heel or come, then 3/4 of all the problems brought to this forum would be eliminated. Students in my classes learn this at a minimum.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

cliffson1 said:


> I think you are assuming a lot of things based on limited exposure....Petsmart obedience is not real training because most of those people aren't trainers. To me a handler has trained primarily their own dogs albeit some to very high level....while a trainer has worked with many many dogs over many years, to have the necessary experience to have seen something enough times in different variations to instantly or instinctively know the approach that has been successful most often. This also means that a trainer knows and has successfully used many different methods or approaches based on what they read from the dog. Lastly, you can't learn to read a dog from anything BUT extensive experiences in on hands work. But again, I know a lot of good trainers out there, but like anything else you have to do the due diligence to make sure they have the knowledge and experience....but if the issue is serious enough that ( due diligence) should be least of problems.


LOL ... outstanding! The old "I don't fight with dogs approach, I train them. > 

And yesss ... I do tend to make a lot of "assumptions" based on "what information users provide." Well ... it's the "internet" and that's kinda how it works??? But aside from that usually I'm right! I'm gonna say "we" cause that's how I roll. So we just turned around a fear of people 16 week old Boxer pup. And as started my ... epilogue, my base "assumption" was ... "100 People in 100 Days" with the wrong puppy??? And yep sure enough I ... :









The answer came back ... yes as that's what there trainer told them to do??? From there ...it became my standard "Bubble Dog Protocol" cept no muzzle. Or a more familiar term for some "Exposure to people vs Socialization with people." These days over there ... we tend to get "Feed Back" and that owner reported vast improvement in a bit under two weeks! Even I was amazed. 

Of course "Petsmarts" is not a real training facility??? I did not see that in the thread??? But I do tend to miss stuff at times, but hey that's why it's a "Forum." It's not up to me do all the heavy lifting??? 

And yes hundreds of dogs and lot's of experience to be able to "read a dog." Yesss ... I don't disagree. And most likely ... had I tried to play on the "Pro Battle Field" with "Rocky" ... I'd have failed ... so I did not. When he first threatened company ...no barking, no moving ...just a low growl and a cold hard stare ... WTH is this??? My blood ran cold! Was it fear or aggression, I did not know nor did care so I use the term "Unpredictable" around people. And preceded from there.

And yep ...it was one time only with people because from that ... one time, it was the last time ... he was allowed to make an independent choice on who he found acceptable!

From that day forward ... "No One" was allowed access to him in public or at home, without getting past me! And his job was to do nothing! 

And so our journey together began and we "walked" many, many miles together in "silence" while learning to ignore people! And Rocky "changed" but I never noticed, I did not care his "Job" was to do nothing enreagrds to "strangers."

I strictly enforced my 5 foot bubble and trust me ... "No One Broke" it! If I was forced to interact with "Strangers" I shielded Rocky and explained, why he was a "No Pet Dog" if I was inclined to do so. He got that but ... I did not notice ... not a Pro, so I did not know what to look for??? 

Most likely were it not for a "Stranger" ... insisting in engaging us and asking me what I was doing and why?? He'd have never been allowed to interact with anyone in his life?? And we tried to ditch "That Guy" by crossing the street and he then crossed the street to engage us! And so (Rocky behind me) we stopped and I explained, what I was doing and why. And then he asked well ... did it work??? 

I was not expecting that?? So I turned and looked at Rocky ... and "now" I saw the same old "Bored" this old bit expression, when Dad does this bit look I was used to?? At that point, I stepped aside and said yes ... to may I pet! And Rocky did as he had been trained to do .... "Nothing!" He said ... nice dog you have there. 

Calm and do nothing dog ... is the only expression ... I need to read. If I have a dog that has any people issues ... then it's hands off my dog ... period. Tested with Rocky and "proofed" with rescues!

And ignoring other dogs and an owner making good choices with a "people unpredictable" dog ...takes care of the rest. 

But I'm a lone Wolf kinda guy ... so if those choices don't work for people ... then yes ... find a trainer ... but yeah ... not "petsmart!"


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I only get offended when somebody disrespects my breed for its positive traits.


Well ... I've never stated ... not a "positive trait??" I have, detailed my adventures in getting it under control. 

When he was dropped off at 7 months ... there was no Waring label, stating "loose structure in the home ... may result in behavior issues in 7 to 8 months time and oh yeah ... he may not be a fan of people, in the future ... you've been warned!" 

Worked out fine in the long run, he was pretty spectacular ... when we finally got it right. School of hard knocks ... works just fine for some.


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## bkernan (May 17, 2009)

All these quotations and erratic punctuation are making these posts very hard to read. FYI


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Puppy classes and manners only teach very simple interactions and socialization. They are not a substitute for real training. A drivey dog is not going to learn what it needs to in those types of classes and it can cause increased drive with no control or outlet. I created a lot of problems by using a park puppy class as a first training experience with my younger dog. I had to switch to a solid private trainer to get past the bad habits he learned by being stuffed with treats instead of learning real commands.

He has never tried to growl at us. If he did, it would be the last time he tried. Once, a few weeks ago, I got between him and my other dog over a toy and he meant to growl at her, but he was looking at me. I moved so quickly, he had no time to do anything except respond to my commands, and he was not even growling at me. But he doesn’t get to growl in my vicinity either, so I shouted NO! Then gave the front/ sit command and the Watch me command. Instantly he was sitting toe to toe with me and staring into my eyes. If his eyes wandered toward the toy, he was directed back to Watch, with positive markers. I waited until the drive was gone. I looked at his ear set (they went from alert and forward, to down and back lying on his head) his breathing and when he was completely calm and relaxed, released him. Drive mixed with growling at an owner is a bad combination.


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## camperbc (Sep 19, 2017)

bkernan said:


> All these quotations and erratic punctuation are making these posts very hard to read. FYI


Yeah, 29 quotes in a single post. That _HAS_ to be a record! 

Glen
Focus On Newfoundland


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

camperbc said:


> bkernan said:
> 
> 
> > All these quotations and erratic punctuation are making these posts very hard to read. FYI
> ...


 that's just chips writing style. I think he does it intentionally to confuse and annoy people but only he will ever know. Most of the time it's easy enough to figure out the gist of what he's trying to say and every now and then he's got some useful tid bits.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Chip18 said:


> Well ... I've never stated ... not a "positive trait??" I have, detailed my adventures in getting it under control.
> 
> When he was dropped off at 7 months ... there was no Waring label, stating "loose structure in the home ... may result in behavior issues in 7 to 8 months time and oh yeah ... he may not be a fan of people, in the future ... you've been warned!"
> 
> Worked out fine in the long run, he was pretty spectacular ... when we finally got it right. School of hard knocks ... works just fine for some.


ALL good trainers have gone through the school of hard knocks in order to learn their trade, unfortunately one size fits all is not very useful in giving advice in dog issues. Whether this is Internet or not, I feel obligation to give advice on things I have extensive knowledge on, lest my advice does more harm than good.
I'm not trying to be contentious, Chip, but Rocky's journey or a couple videos( which can't answer questions that occur with the uniqueness of each case/dog), seems to be lacking at best in most cases. Nothing wrong with being lone wolf, its more about the width and depth of experience/knowledge the wolf possesses to give advice that zeroes in on problem...especially on internet where you haven't seen the dog or owner, but hopefully HAVE seen this type dog/owner/problem in hands on work, and likewise have seen what works,AND more importantly what doesn't work.
I'm not trying to minimize or denigrate Rocky's journey, and I think it worked well for you, but I hardly think that journey was a blueprint for dealing with aggression issues for most pet owners.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

cliffson1 said:


> ALL good trainers have gone through the school of hard knocks in order to learn their trade, unfortunately one size fits all is not very useful in giving advice in dog issues. Whether this is Internet or not, I feel obligation to give advice on things I have extensive knowledge on, lest my advice does more harm than good.
> I'm not trying to be contentious, Chip, but Rocky's journey or a couple videos( which can't answer questions that occur with the uniqueness of each case/dog), seems to be lacking at best in most cases. Nothing wrong with being lone wolf, its more about the width and depth of experience/knowledge the wolf possesses to give advice that zeroes in on problem...especially on internet where you haven't seen the dog or owner, but hopefully HAVE seen this type dog/owner/problem in hands on work, and likewise have seen what works,AND more importantly what doesn't work.
> I'm not trying to minimize or denigrate Rocky's journey, and I think it worked well for you, but I hardly think that journey was a blueprint for dealing with aggression issues for most pet owners.


Naw, your not being contentious and I do hear you. 
It's simply that I found other means of getting where I needed to be with "Rocky" he was my Blue Print but not my first ... uh dog with issues. That would have been Gunther (American Band Dawg.) 
And he rolled out the Box with D/A issues??? 

Yesss big surprise but it was to me??? My plan was, but of course to "Dog Park" him it, but I saw something early on that made that plan, look like it was gonna be an, issue?? So he became the only dog I took to a "Pro" for an Eval on and he was pronounced a "Dominate Male Dog." 

I have no idea what a "Pro" would have done?? And I didn't care my solution was simple "Ignore Other Dogs" it was. In San Jose in 2000, Band Dawgs among other ... would be at the "Dog Park" and other owners, might not care about there dog's issues?? "My dogs issues are not my problem, they are your problem." So we never went to the Dog Park, it was years before he was allowed to interact freely with other dogs, and when he did ... there were no issues. 

Beyond that there were other assorted "Boxer/APBT" and Boxers 7 years worth, so a big furry dog with a pointy face, should have been "No Big Deal???" Turned out that such was not the case???

Rank Drive issues (5 pack fights) and my GSD ... always started them, loose structure in the home. Lack of structure ... was not an issue I had before but now it was??? Got stitches learning that one while breaking up Pack Fights, first lesson learned. 

I will say ... I most certainly "expected" to have D/A issues with him?? But nope ... never happened?? He was surprising good around other dogs?? But after a decade of avoiding, "is your dog friendly people" we kept our distance from other dogs, that makes thing simple.  

And Rocky, Rocky, Rocky yes my "Bubble Dog Protocol." And all my critics luv, to give me the old just my one dog bit. It gets old and yes he was my "Blue Print" but not my "Proof of Concept." That would be "Tic Tac Toe" a fear of people, pulling Boxer. Worked out fine the details ... I've told before. 

But it was years before I started working Rescue, I sat on one I'd accomplished with "Rocky" and it was only when I lost my Boxer Struddell in 2013 that I did the Dog Forum thing. 

I figured ... I'd share what I know and did and maybe find answers as to how, I'd done what I done seemingly without much effort??? But no ... no answers for me "online" all I tend to generate is "flack" and people explaining to me ... how I can't have done what I did/do?? 

And then it becomes a "Good Luck" with that situation. Still in looking for answers ... I finally came across mine, in the form of "Larry Krhon." I don't remember what I was looking for but this was my answer.:





I'd finally found ... my answer and with that ... I was kinda sorta done. As ultimately that was all I'd done. But I'll concede your point ... and yes "Rocky" "Mr. Unpredictable," around people, was as close I've come to dealing with "Aggression???" I usually get, fear of people and generally, badly behaved Dog in rescue work around here.

I've attempted to help a couple "Trainer" fail owners one on one?? But they tend to feel, there is no hope??? So I never hear from them. But ... until I get deeper inside ... first arrivals perhaps?? No real aggression cases for me?? And in any case I heard from Jeff Gellman, that I have about 80 dogs to go before even thinking about dealing with a true aggressive dog case! But that falls under things I know but necessarily things I do??? So I am aware of what your saying. 

Still, I'll keep trying and relax ... if I do get a hold of "that dog??" If you don't mind ... I'll put you on my list off "Trainers" I know as back up! I don't have to know everything ... I just need to know people that know more than I do. Most likely a PM would be marked "urgent" if, I get in over my head. But even still "bubble dog protocol" so hands of my dog or dogs under my care in any case.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> When he was dropped off at 7 months ... there was no Waring label, stating "loose structure in the home ... may result in behavior issues in 7 to 8 months time and oh yeah ... he may not be a fan of people, in the future ... you've been warned!"


Ummm... that's where breed research comes into play. Almost every single reputable source on GSDs I have ever read... going all the way back to my vintage dog books published between the 1920s and 1980s... have illustrated that GSDs need discipline, structure and are NOT generally good with strangers. 

You were negligent in researching breed characteristics before your adopted Rocky. You got lucky and made it work, but perhaps Rocky's story would serve a better purpose in demonstrating that in the end: Breed matters. 

Also... Sorry... But I REALLY REALLY do not understand how Rocky's "issues" with strangers relates to the OP's situation of a dog growling at her _husband_. How exactly is the bubble dog protocol going to help the OP when the person the dog growls at _lives with and cares for the dog every single friggin day?_

Not all "aggression" issues can or should be treated the same. There may or may not even BE an issue with "aggression" in this case.

This is exactly why my advice was to go to an experienced in person trainer. 
@Kscavicch I am sorry your thread has derailed into this off topic back and forth nonsense. I do hope you have found the help you needed


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

It's important to have some perspective and understanding of breed traits before labeling a dog aggressive. 

The more I see of dog owners, the more I realize how very few are equipped or interested in dealing with a dog who has any sort of pushy-"aggressive" traits. If an owner is truly invested and knows how to sort out good training advice from bad, a dedicated owner can address aggression issues on their own, BUT, (huge but) I have to agree that most owners should seek out a qualified, experienced professional. 

Also, it is critical that the owner not become or already be afraid of their dog. If the handler is afraid, the dog knows it, and training anything will be a challenge, and certain dogs will think it is their job to correct the handler's weakness. And that can be very dangerous.


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## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

camperbc said:


> Yeah, 29 quotes in a single post. That _HAS_ to be a record!
> 
> Glen
> Focus On Newfoundland


32.5 missed the back half of the quotes on one.

But who's counting..... >

Chip18 posts make me feel like my eyes are having a seizure

ETA he often makes some good points if you can parse through it


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Tennessee said:


> 32.5 missed the back half of the quotes on one.
> 
> But who's counting..... >
> 
> ...


It's hard to stay on point while dodging incoming but you should have seen the "Old Days" there is a 2000 word limit on post and Lou and I used to have contest.


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