# Biddability, "genetic obedience" and pack drive



## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

I was going back over some older threads on the forum and saw a mention of "genetic obedience" also called biddability. It was mentioned that some dogs or lines of dogs seem to come almost programmed to desire pleasing their owner above all. Another post mentioned that this is part of "pack drive" as opposed to, say, ball drive where the object of the drive is an actual thing and not a person.

Can someone expound on this? How would you go about finding such a line or pup?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I don't know how to answer your question, hopefully someone will

I will say, in my experience with the gsd's I"ve had, have, whether it's been luck or what, they all were/are very biddable dogs, with alot of pack drive, and have been very "into" me. 

I've had 8 gsd's over my lifetime, varying lines, mostly east german, even having multiple dogs, I've never had a dog who was more interested in the 'other' dogs vs me. I have always been able to take any of them, anywhere, off leash and be fine with it. (obviously not in traffic situations 

I consider myself to have been, darn lucky to have had some wonderful dogs (and one now as well that for the most part, were/are easy trainers, very very handler focused, and a pleasure to work/play with. 

Genetics? Nurture? I dunno, maybe both.


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## Minnieski (Jan 27, 2009)

:crazy:I don't know if it's genetics or not, but Tanner is WAY more biddable than Minnie. His obedience skills are much sharper (when I say down he drops immediately, v. Minnie who dallies as long as she can before complying - unless I have a ball to throw for her), and he just seems to want to be with us. Minnie and Tanner are from completely different lines - Minnie is a bit of east German with American Showlines, and Tanner is Czech/DDR. Tanner could care less about other people and dogs on our walk, and Minnie is dying to meet them all. I don't know if it's the lines or the personality, but they are really very different dogs. I have to say that I love my Minnie, but I really like how biddable Tanner is. It's like he does things because he likes making me happy, whereas Minnie only does things if she knows what's in it for her. :shrug:

As pups, we had our eye on Minnie from about 5 wks on. She temperament tested right where we wanted her to be, and she likes to work (fetch especially...). Tanner kind of chose us. We weren't looking for a pup, but every time we moved he would separate himself from the rest of the pups and lay on my foot. Minnie doesn't like snuggling unless she's REALLY tired, but Tanner comes over just to be snuggled. Who knows?!


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

When I think of biddability, I also think of a compliant dog. A dog that wants to please you and is by nature very amenable to following the rules and guidelines you set forth. Generally through good relationship building and foundation work you can achieve a certain amount of compliance and "want to please", however some dogs are more hardwired for it. Consider the stereotypical hound, generally not considered to be particularly biddable, but rather more instinct driven. Hounds are often characterized as stubborn. By simply having a herding breed your chances for a biddable dog improve because they are bred to communicate and work with people. And I think when you look at puppies that is what you are looking for. A puppy that wants to communicate and work with you. 

Alot of what I consider to be genetic biddabilty can be looked at through puppy tests. Consider the standard Volhard. Volhard Puppy Aptitude Test

A puppy that displays a lot of 1s in the puppy test will not be a biddable dog by nature because it will likely fight you for control. An independent puppy will also be difficult because it will lack interest in you. Personally I have always found more more "beta" personality dogs to be more naturally compliant. The hard dominant ones seem to be more inclined to see what they can get away with, however with good leadership and solid foundation training my dogs have all turned out to be pretty interested in figuring out what it is I want. 

Another thing a trainer had me look at when testing puppies was their reaction to the touch test or social dominance test. After playing with the pup a little while, when you place the puppy in an uncomfortable situation and then release it, does it come towards you right away, will it reengage with you in play? Or does it quit and leave you? A pup that comes to you and will reengage will be more forgiving of correction. And while this may not necessarily fall right into pack drive, I think it an important quality when selecting for genetic obedience. 

Although I suppose this is one of those topics that have no real clear cut answer, because everyone has their own definition and way to achieve it.


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

Great info about the testing, thanks!

I read that the following lines tend to produce more biddable dogs: Lierbergs, Vello, Gildo vom Koerbelbach, Racker Itztal. I have not seen these names in any pedigrees I have looked at though.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Shawn, did you look further into the pedigrees? For example, Anton is linebred on Don vom Rio who is linebred on Pushkaß vom Haus Himpel, a Bernd vom Lierberg's son.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Agree. Gildo vom Koerbelbach was a popular dog. There are many dogs out there that utilized him in their pedigrees. Check out some of his progeny and you might be able to get a feel for what kennels are using the influence. 

V Gildo vom Körbelbach pedigree information - German shepherd dog


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

Oksana,

I think I didn't look back far enough or know those names. I did look at Anton's sire and dam's pedigree but I was looking for the name "Lierberg" and only looked at the first "sheet" of names.


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

JKlatsky said:


> Agree. Gildo vom Koerbelbach was a popular dog. There are many dogs out there that utilized him in their pedigrees. Check out some of his progeny and you might be able to get a feel for what kennels are using the influence.
> 
> V Gildo vom Körbelbach pedigree information - German shepherd dog


Oh thanks! I didn't think to search for the dog on that site and look at progeny. I am totally new at this, thank you very much for the tip!


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## Uniballer (Mar 12, 2002)

I think biddability is a part of the temperament package. If possible, you want to look at the whole thing. Since you can't really test puppies for some things that depend on hormones and maturity you need to look at the parents. Seeing them in multiple settings: owner's home, training (all 3 phases if possible), off leash in a strange place, etc. will tell you a lot, but basically means you are probably already training with the owners of the sire and dam.

I had a Gildo grandson through Asta Kahlenborner Hoehe (Mink line on top). He was a nice dog, and was about as obedient in real life as he was on the schutzhund field, but could be stubborn and a little handler aggressive when stressed. So again, the whole genetic package has to be looked at.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i think drive has alot to do with biddability, with that excessive drive you can do almost anything.......that and a true connection with your dog..........if the dog has the ability to bond naturally with an owner anything is possible, because that dog trusts you in life, in training etc..........
so, yes again genetics is responsible for all these traits.........

weaker nerved dogs can go either way with the bonding process all depending on genetic traits etc, some weaker nerved dogs just don't have the capacity to bond with a person................i think they tend to look to other dogs to fill that void no matter how much time is spent with them........So working biddability of any kind can be tough and a bit frustrating ...................


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

debbiebrown said:


> i think drive has alot to do with biddability, with that excessive drive you can do almost anything


I disagree. I do not think drive as it is typically defined (prey, food, toy, etc..) has anything to do with biddability. Certainly a dog with those drives can be taught to do almost anything reliably, but in the case of those drives the dog is working for his own drive satisfaction, and obedience to the handler comes into play only because the dog has learned that obedience is the best, quickest way to reaching his drive goal. He is not working for the handler, he is working for his own self interest to satisfy his drives. That is a completely different thing than the dog who is truly working *for* the handler, not for whatever goodies and rewards and drive objects the handler may possess and be in control of. Very, very different situation.

The truly biddable dog is one who works for his handler and wants to please his handler, not just himself. This is rooted in a drive, but it is pack/social drive and this functions very differently than other drives. There is still some self interest there, as it behooves a pack animal to stay in line and please the leader, but that self interest is not at all on the level of a dog working in prey or food or other drives. 

And the truly biddable dog will forego satisfaction of his other drives out of deference to the handler's wishes. For example, stop in his tracks when chasing a rabbit just because the handler said so, not because the dog necessarily fears correction or the handler has some toy or treat that is higher value to the dog than the prey drive satisfaction he would get out of continuing to chase.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

Good point Chris.............my point was without an amount of drive, there isn't much natural motivation, so without that, the dog would be working on a pure willingness to please, if it is a genetic trait........


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I have to agree, again, with Chris. I had an extremely high drive dog who was anything but biddable. Yes, you could get him to do about anything for his desired drive goal, sure. But it was nothing like biddability. Combine handler hardness, rankness with high drive and you don't necessarily get a biddable dog. 

I have another dog with really good drives. She is very biddable. I got her at 6 months and she has never required a leash. All of her obedience for competition was done off lead and I had to introduce a lead for trialing. She is 10 years old, and though she is driven, she has never failed to recall in 10 years. She will call off of sheep, rabbits, deer, an intruder... even though she is very high in these situations. I noted someone mentioned, in another thread, that any one who says they have a 100% recall is lying. I might be made a liar ( if she goes deaf!), but so far it has been that reliable for all the years. The drives are all there in her, but the concept of the biddability is different and probably based in pack drive? This particular trait is genetic, IMO.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Someday I would like to get a truly biddable dog like that. I don't think it's there with any of my current dogs.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i do think there has to be some genetic motivation there, being the drive in combo with willing to please..........we all would like to have that package.............


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Well, in my case, it has its drawbacks also. My dog is very sensitive to me so my nerves in competition don't mix so well with her as she it tuned in big time. In herding, it was not so bad as she was higher in drive and I was less nervous. One has to be careful in correction and keep it low key or she is upset about displeasing. There is a softness to the handler in her. She is not sweet or submissive though. Thankfully, because I don't do syrupy well. 

Every trait has its pros and cons, I think. That is why good breeders look to create a balance.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Samba, I may be in that "liar's club" with you. I can honestly not think of one time Dodge ever did not have a reliable recall for me, deer, cats, rabbits.

Masi is coming close, I have reliably recalled her off wildlife, (which I think can be the "true" test) she's still young, and I wouldn't dare say 100%, she's in the 90's tho(watch I've probably jinxed myself!)

My aussie,,HECK NO LOL,,that girl is in it for herself, love her to death, but she is very self serving especially when it comes to "critters"..


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

My Zoe love loves to work......for food and fetch that is though she does listen to all her basic commands without either no matter what cat is pooing in my front yard. I guess she may be a little of both though any sustained training must include tripe roll and a big hearty stick


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i will say my young male does excellent in OB work, he does everything i ask him when we are working........he is a bit soft with nerves, i am not sure i'd say he is completely biddable in that, sometimes in other areas of his life i ask him to do something and he takes his sweet time.........it has to be his idea.....which isn't a great asset.......but he's still young........and we are still working.........

my female is a bit harder, she can be very stubborn, but the same in OB training she is very quick and responsive, but i wouldn't call her a real biddable dog because of her stubborn nature.........

Toby my older male that i had to PTS in Jan (RIP, my love) was completely Biddable, he lived his life to please me in every way..........he was the easiest dog to train i've ever had, but there was a huge connection there as well.............he was totally in tune with me at all times..........................that dog would have followed me to the ends of the earth no questions asked..............anyone is lucky to have one of those in a lifetime...............


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Keefer has very high pack drive and is quite compliant by nature, but his prey drive is just as high, so it often trumps his desire to please me! :help:


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Yes, it is a fortunate happening in a lifetime. After some time with them, you realize they would walk on hot coals if you needed them to.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

If the house is on fire and Ike can save one thing: his ball or me ... I wonder which one he would go for. On second thought ... nevermind. I already know the answer.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

fortunate thats for sure, but, then i got spoiled, so now i get to experience the not so perfect ones....................the not so biddable ones, the ones that you have to work at....................because it doesn't come naturally...............


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

There are only very few perfect ones for everyone's lifetime, it seems like... Debbie, the other day my DH looked at Anton and told me that this dog made him understand why I love GSDs so much... It was nice and at the same time very sad to hear because his first experience with a GSD was not a joy ride, that's for sure.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

Oksana,
i think anyone who has owned alot of GSD'S through a lifetime is darn lucky to have had one of these naturally biddable beings, if anyone is lucky enough to have had more than that, they are darn lucky........

when i speak of my Toby the perfect one, he really wasn't perfect, every dog has their quirks, he was very dog aggressive, but because he wanted to please and because we had that deep connection we were able to over come that.......i would take that any day...........

but then again, having that type of dog, then having the not so in tune or biddable dogs we can appreciate the difference............i guess that makes it even more special........


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

*Pack drive*

I think Bison has a pretty good level of pack drive. I am just now starting to learn to tap into that for training. In agility, I am seeing that he will do things just because I ask him to and gets really happy when I say "Good Boy!". He often doesn't even take the treat that is offered.

He has on more than one occasion been called a "mama's boy" and it isn't because he is fearful.


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