# 4th shot or no?



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Still trying to figure out puppy vaccination protocol. Legend was vaccinated by the breeder at 8 weeks (on the day) - Dec. 17, then Jan. 8, then Feb. 3. Does he need another distemper/parvo? The vet seems to think so but I think 4 might be excessive? But I'm not sure about the timing. His birthday is October 22. I will probably be bringing him in for something else in the next day or so and I know they will ask about vaccines.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Mine have never gotten four. Actually the last two pups I raised have had two and just Parvo and Distemper.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Still trying to figure out puppy vaccination protocol. Legend was vaccinated by the breeder at 8 weeks (on the day) - Dec. 17, then Jan. 8, then Feb. 3. Does he need another distemper/parvo? The vet seems to think so but I think 4 might be excessive? But I'm not sure about the timing. His birthday is October 22. I will probably be bringing him in for something else in the next day or so and I know they will ask about vaccines.


My boy got one at 8 weeks and 12 weeks. My vet says two more. One at 16 weeks and one at 20 weeks. 

I thought that sounded like a lot also, but I really trust my vet so I'm going to follow her judgement.


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

No, he was 15 wks on his last shot so he is good to go. I'm giving my 3rd and final next week to Noah at 15 wks and per my vet (a breeder vet and friend). THat is all he needs. I will wait 2 wks then he will get his rabies.


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

shepherdmom said:


> My boy got one at 8 weeks and 12 weeks. My vet says two more. One at 16 weeks and one at 20 weeks.
> 
> I thought that sounded like a lot also, but I really trust my vet so I'm going to follow her judgement.


That's excessive (old protocol). I would make the 16 wk shot the last one, then do rabies at 18 wks (or when your state law mandates but not at the same time as the puppy shot).


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

GSDAlphaMom said:


> That's excessive (old protocol). I would make the 16 wk shot the last one, then do rabies at 18 wks (or when your state law mandates but not at the same time as the puppy shot).


Because puppy is still protected by mother... She wouldn't have done early ones... Said that I should have done at 12, 16 weeks and 20 weeks. But because I got him at a rescue he already had the first two. 

State mandates Rabies at 16 weeks.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Thanks AlphaMom, part of the reason I asked was he's going in for something else and is technically old enough for rabies, but I wouldn't want to do that AND another combo shot. If he's good with the distemper/parvo, I'll have them do the rabies if he is healthy.


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

Dr Dodds protocol that most are moving to:

Dr. Jean Dodds' Pet Health Resource Blog | Dr. Dodds' 2012 Canine Vaccination Protocol


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

I don't. My vet has tried getting me to give Recon and now Patton a fourth. As long as the last comes on/after 15wks, I see no point. I wait a little longer between vaccines to make the last line up. Mom's immunity has certainly worn off and it should take. I've never had an issue. I see Legend got his at 14 wks and 6 days - I would not worry, personally. Lots of vets like to push this and I don't know why.


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## willoglen (Aug 4, 2013)

I don't, either. I "retired" from breeding Shelties after over 25 years, and I used Dr. Dodds recommendations. The following is an excellent article on vaccinations and immunology:

New Page 1


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

GSDAlphaMom said:


> Dr Dodds protocol that most are moving to:
> 
> Dr. Jean Dodds' Pet Health Resource Blog | Dr. Dodds' 2012 Canine Vaccination Protocol



Above Protocol is Out of Date

2013
Dr. Jean Dodds' Pet Health Resource Blog | 2013 and 2014 Canine Vaccination Protocol - W. Jean Dodds, DVM

Lies - you should be fine. Read the above


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

Oops thanks, didn't realize I grabbed the wrong link.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I would definitely titer. Here is what happened to us
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...vaccine-didnt-take-yet-what-would-you-do.html


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I'd rather just wait a few more weeks and do another vaccine, if there is still risk.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

How long after a vaccination can you titer?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

According to the AAHA 2011 guidelines 3 is fine since the 3rd is between 14 and 16 weeks.

http://www.aahanet.org/publicdocuments/caninevaccineguidelines.pdf


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

jocoyn said:


> According to the AAHA 2011 guidelines 3 is fine since the 3rd is between 14 and 16 weeks.
> 
> http://www.aahanet.org/publicdocuments/caninevaccineguidelines.pdf


Yes, but if I had followed those guidelines Hans would be running around without immunity to Parvo and I wouldn't know it.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Sunflowers said:


> Yes, but if I had followed those guidelines Hans would be running around without immunity to Parvo and I wouldn't know it.


I think the key word is without FULL immunity.

I wonder how that could have actually effected him, since I'm sure he's not the only dog and we don't see many puppies vaccinated after 14 wks have a problem.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I only do 3 shots to and I do them at home. Rabies at the vet a couple weeks after last distemper/ parvo. I think 6 wks is to young for the first shot and I'm not sure if it holds any value?(just my opinion)On average people get pups at about 8 weeks and are off to the vet within a couple days, making it more like 8.5 weeks, 11-11.5 weeks, and then 14-14.5 weeks with rabies at 16-16.5 weeks.


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## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

We've been recommending 4 if a breeder gave it because we're seeing a LOT of parvo in the area, including a 5 month old who had three rounds (one given by a breeder). We prefer to know that the pup definitely has 3 vaccines that were kept at the correct temperature and definitely got in, rather than risk parvo. We've just started doing this though because it has been so bad here, there's been around 30 cases in the area the past few months.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

parvo is rampant here
and we opted for a 4th vaccine 
when a 5yr. old dog brought sick to our vet
that had never had vaccines
passed away from parvo
better to be safe than sorry
if you're out and about alot 
especially


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## ugavet2012 (Apr 15, 2010)

Sunflowers said:


> Yes, but if I had followed those guidelines Hans would be running around without immunity to Parvo and I wouldn't know it.


Did your vet explain that antibody titers measure just that, antibodies? Not T cell immunity, therefore they don't tell the whole picture. Having a low antibody titer doesn't mean you aren't immune to a virus, it means you have low circulating antibodies, but there's a whole other part to the immune system. The other option is what I'm getting to below. 

Lots of inaccuracies about vaccines in this thread. 
If you are a vet tech especially, you should understand WHY we do a "series" of vaccines for puppies. They do not "need" 3...or 4...or 8 in a series. What we are trying to do by giving a series of vaccines 3-4 weeks apart is catch that window where moms antibodies wear off and the vaccine can step in to take their place. For 99%+ of puppies this is by 16 weeks. I forget the %s for the other ages. So in sunflowers case, maybe her puppy was in that <1%. For this reason, I aim to do the last booster around 16 weeks or older. For an older puppy or adult first getting vaccines, the protocol is to get 2 vaccines, 3-4 weeks apart, so one is a "booster." One modified live vaccine will do the trick, but that second one is just to get any individuals who maybe for whatever reason didn't respond appropriately the first time.

For me, I do not give 2 craps who gave the first vaccine at 6-8 weeks or whatever, because the majority of puppies won't respond anyway, and my recommendations are exactly the same as if I had given it myself, it doesn't change "the protocol."


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

ugavet2012 said:


> Did your vet explain that antibody titers measure just that, antibodies? Not T cell immunity, therefore they don't tell the whole picture. Having a low antibody titer doesn't mean you aren't immune to a virus, it means you have low circulating antibodies, but there's a whole other part to the immune system. The other option is what I'm getting to below.
> 
> Lots of inaccuracies about vaccines in this thread.
> If you are a vet tech especially, you should understand WHY we do a "series" of vaccines for puppies. They do not "need" 3...or 4...or 8 in a series. What we are trying to do by giving a series of vaccines 3-4 weeks apart is catch that window where moms antibodies wear off and the vaccine can step in to take their place. For 99%+ of puppies this is by 16 weeks. I forget the %s for the other ages. So in sunflowers case, maybe her puppy was in that <1%. For this reason, I aim to do the last booster around 16 weeks or older. For an older puppy or adult first getting vaccines, the protocol is to get 2 vaccines, 3-4 weeks apart, so one is a "booster." One modified live vaccine will do the trick, but that second one is just to get any individuals who maybe for whatever reason didn't respond appropriately the first time.
> ...


OK I'm confused. My boy had 8 weeks and 12 weeks at the rescue. My vet says 16 and 20 weeks. Does he not need the 20 week one? We do have a Parvo outbreak around here.


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## willoglen (Aug 4, 2013)

Vaccines are NOT without risks. Over-vaccination can be as harmful, if not more so, than under- or no vaccination. Not trying to scare anyone (I vaccinate using Dr. Dodd's protocol), but all pet owners should be aware of this fact. (It is *not* just my opinion; and yes, I was a biology teacher ).


Just a few examples of vaccine-induced disease:
1. Terminal sarcomas at vaccine injection sites
2. Autoimmune hemolytic anemia (AIHA)
3. Polyarthritis
4. Amyloidosis
5. Brain and central nervous system damage, including paralysis. 

Merck itself states in its Manual that vaccines (i.e., its own products) can cause encephalitis: brain inflammation/damage. 

Veterinary schools in America, plus the American Veterinary Medical Association have acknowledged that vaccines are not without harm. 

Titers measure only RECENT exposure to a disease. Antibodies do not "normally" circulate in the bloodstream, only in response to a stimulus such as a vaccine or actual exposure to a disease. After vaccination or exposure, certain cells will "remember" that stimulus for a quick response if needed. These memory B cells, sometimes with helper T cells, produce the antibodies. 

There is currently no method available to test this cell-mediated immunity, but over stimulation of the immune system with vaccines has been proven to cause many diseases, including the disease(s) it was designed to prevent.

SOURCES:
"Effects of Vaccination on the Endocrine and Immune Systems of Dogs, Phase II", Purdue University, November 1,1999.
Duval, D. and Giger,U. (1996). "Vaccine-Associated Immune-Mediated Hemolytic Anemia in the Dog", Journal of Veterinary Internal Medicine 10:290-295.
New England Journal of Medicine, vol.313,1985.
Clin Exp Rheumatol 20(6):767-71, Nov-Dec 2002.
Am Coll Vet Intern Med 14:381,2000.
Dodds, Jean W.,DVM, "Immune System and Disease Resistance.
Klingborg, D.J., Hustead, D.R. and Curry-Galvin, E. et al., "AVMA Council on Biologic and Therapeutic Agents' report on cat and dog vaccines", Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association 221(10):1401-1407, November 15,2002. 
Schultz, R.D., "Current and future canine and feline vaccination programs", Vet Med 93:233-254,1998.
Schultz, R.D., Ford, R.B., Olsen, J. and Scott, P., "Titer testing and vaccination: a new look at traditional practices", Vet Med 97:1-13, 2002 (insert).
Twark, L. and Dodds, W.J., "Clinical application of serum parvovirus and distemper virus antibody liters for determining revaccination strategies in healthy dogs", J Am Vet Med Assoc 217:1021-1024,2000.


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## willoglen (Aug 4, 2013)

Well, I'm slow -- thank you ugavet!


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

willoglen said:


> Vaccines are NOT without risks. Over-vaccination can be as harmful, if not more so, than under- or no vaccination. Not trying to scare anyone (I vaccinate using Dr. Dodd's protocol), but all pet owners should be aware of this fact.




Yikes... Thank You! I'm not sure what to do now.


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