# Choosing a new puppy (color/marking question)!!



## JenH1125 (Sep 9, 2020)

Hi! I’m new here, but not to GSDs. My Sebastian passed away 4 years ago and I’m finally getting a new pup. Found a breeder I’m happy with and the puppies are 3 weeks old right now. I really want to choose a pup with a reverse wolf mask like dad has, but I’m not sure how to tell how likely they will change. I’m getting a female. Can anyone here help me pick?
This is mom:








This is dad:








Here are the two puppies I’m torn between:


















the one that’s says lavender on the image is really cool because she has the silver and light tan sable in her fur which I think will turn out really beautiful, but her mask is lighter so I’m not sure if that means she will loose it as she gets older. The breeder says it’s hard to really tell as well what will happen. But, I kind of think that as she gets older with the tan and silver coloring she might turn out like this dog I found in a google search:








Thanks in advance for any advice or help choosing!! I appreciate it!


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Hi Jen and Welcome!

Is the sire a Husky GSD Mix?


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## Shadow Shep (Apr 16, 2020)

Welcome Jen! I am wondering if both parents are Husky GSD mixes.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Those do not look purebred GSD. Unfortunately, you have what appears to be a northern breed mixed in there which changes the color genetics. At the very least, these are poorly bred dogs. If you want a purebred GSD, then you need to find a reputable breeder and I can tell you from just looking at these pictures that this "breeder" is not one. 

I think there is a northern breed in there so I can't help pick a puppy because I don't know if the black on a husky fades like the black/tan shepherds do.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Dad at least is not purebred imo


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

One of my dogs is a husky mix,and I wished for the oppositeI was hoping her beautiful markings would become more distinct but they became more blended in.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

The photo the OP found on Google looks very much like Chuck Eisenmann's GSDs of "The Littlest Hobo" fame.


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## Shadow Shep (Apr 16, 2020)

Chip Blasiole said:


> The photo the OP found on Google looks very much like Chuck Eisenmann's GSDs of "The Littlest Hobo" fame.


It does!


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## JenH1125 (Sep 9, 2020)

These are full blooded AKC German Shepherds, with excellent show bloodlines and full clearance for DM and dysplasia. They do look like huskies which is what I think is so cool about them! 😍 The pics aren’t the greatest but the parents have excellent GSD form. And yes, the Littlest Hobo is a perfect example. Dad is around 3 years old and his litermates sold for $3500. I’m buying mine for $900 (no breeding rights).


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## chuckd (Jul 16, 2019)

Do liver pigmented noses occur in GSDs? I know that it's common with huskies & malamutes.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Breeders can say anything. Do you have the pedigree? The sire is a mix. The shape of his face and markings are Husky, body looks more German Shepherd. The puppies are cute, but we have no way of knowing how the colors will change.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

chuckd said:


> Do liver pigmented noses occur in GSDs? I know that it's common with huskies & malamutes.


They do, and it's a serious fault. 
Kind of makes me doubt the breeders info.
May well have health testing, but the sire looks mixed and mom would not be breed worthy based on pigmentation alone.
So my guess is another "champion lines" sales pitch.
OP they are cute pups but I sincerely doubt purebred, and if they are certainly not well bred. 
I would not be taking either pup if I wanted a GSD.


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

JenH1125 said:


> These are full blooded AKC German Shepherds, with excellent show bloodlines and full clearance for DM and dysplasia. They do look like huskies which is what I think is so cool about them! 😍 The pics aren’t the greatest but the parents have excellent GSD form. And yes, the Littlest Hobo is a perfect example. Dad is around 3 years old and his litermates sold for $3500. I’m buying mine for $900 (no breeding rights).


Hi Jen,
Please ask the breeder for the pedigree of the sire and the dam and then post them here, or at least list the AKC registered names and numbers of the sire and the dam.

This is what a pedigree looks like in the "Pedigree Database": Zako-Max z Jirkova dvora (from a random list there)

Scroll all the way down to see the heritage and pictures of the sires (shaded in blue) and the dams (shaded in pink)


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

...


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## JenH1125 (Sep 9, 2020)

Like I said in my original post. I am not new to German Shepherds, I’ve been raising them and been raised with them my entire life. I’m confident in my breeder. That’s not my question. These are not mixed or poorly bred dogs. 

If you aren’t familiar with these markings that’s ok. Please allow someone who is familiar the chance to answer my questions without having to go thru pages of arguments as to whether or not you believe them to be mixed or not. They are not mixed.
I’m simply asking which of the two puppies I posted are most likely to grow up with a well defined mask like dad.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

....


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## JenH1125 (Sep 9, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The people commenting are familiar with these markings, conformation and well bred vs byb. That is why the concensus is that these pups are a mixed breed. If you don't want experienced opinions, maybe you should ask on a pet forum where you are more likely to find inexperienced people that will agree with you.


As am I. Don’t get me wrong, I appreciate the concern. However, I have already confirmed 3 times that this is a reputable breeder, purebred, AKC German Shepherds. They are not mixed.
So please....back to my actual question.....


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## cmacc (Jul 13, 2020)

JenH1125 said:


> As am I. Don’t get me wrong, I appreciate the concern. However, I have already confirmed 3 times that this is a reputable breeder, purebred, AKC German Shepherds. They are not mixed.
> So please....back to my actual question.....


Out of curiosity what venue does the breeder show in?


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

Those two dogs are not full blooded German Shepherd dogs. If you think so, you’re being sold a bill of goods. Even if you think they are, by the breed standard, they wouldn’t be considered well-bred. That means backyard breeder. 

I was raised with Siberian Huskies. Those two dogs have northern breeds in them...including the very obvious snow nose.

If you want a GSD, go to a different breeder. If not, take one of these puppies.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

...


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## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

I'm sorry, but the fact that this person is breeding dogs of these colors in itself means that they are not a reputable breeder. Reputable breeders breed to the standard and these two dogs certainly don't meet the standard for GSD's. They most definitely don't have the conformation of any show line dogs either. The information you have gotten from this breeder is just not accurate.

Please do as Momto2GSDs asked and post the pedigree. The knowledge of people on this board is outstanding and they could tell you if the ancestors of these dogs would be likely to produce colors like those of the parents.

The pups are very cute and would probably make good pets. But I have a hard time believing they are purebred. They certainly aren't well bred or they wouldn't be those colors.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

JenH1125 said:


> Like I said in my original post. I am not new to German Shepherds, I’ve been raising them and been raised with them my entire life. I’m confident in my breeder. That’s not my question. These are not mixed or poorly bred dogs.
> 
> If you aren’t familiar with these markings that’s ok. Please allow someone who is familiar the chance to answer my questions without having to go thru pages of arguments as to whether or not you believe them to be mixed or not. They are not mixed.
> I’m simply asking which of the two puppies I posted are most likely to grow up with a well defined mask like dad.


I am very familiar with the Hobo markings you speak of being that my family knew Chuck. London was a sable who happened to have white markings that for whatever reason he liked to pass on to his offspring. That line is all but wiped out, since it was out of standard anyway. I believe there is one breeder trying to preserve it. 
And I will say again, mom would not be breed worthy based on pigmentation and dad is a mix.
The pups look husky ish so no one can answer your question. Dad does not have a reverse mask, he has a malamute mask because he is not a GSD.


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

What "Type" of GSD are they?

AMERICAN SHOW LINE:







GERMAN SHOW LINE:







WORKING LINE:








Explanation of "Types" and the above pictures can be found here: 


(Types of German Shepherds, by Wildhaus Kennels )


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

This is London, I believe the second.





__





chuck eisenmann littlest hobo dogs - Search


Find high-quality images, photos, and animated GIFS with Bing Images




www.bing.com





This is a Malamute




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malamute markings - Bing


Find high-quality images, photos, and animated GIFS with Bing Images




www.bing.com


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Those are beautiful little pups and attractive sire and dam.I think the members here are only concerned that you might want to do a little more research before committing.Simply to not be surprised by genetic temperament differences and health issues down the road.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

To the OP, I know you are convinced that these dogs are purebred but you have to forgive posters here because it seems overwhelmingly obvious that they are not. Or at the least, bred from some very strange looking GSD. What seems like reputable breeders mislead buyers all the time unfortunately and I don't think you can get your questions answered here.

I think you need to ask yourself if you would be happy with a mixed breed puppy for that price. If you're not breeding as you say, she should be a great pup and hopefully healthy.

Also, I don't think the sire looks an awful lot like The Littlest Hobo (London) either although there were several dogs that played the role









During the latter part of his life, Chuck was friends with Tina Barber, who had incorporated the Hobo dogs into her lines, which became the Shiloh Shepherd. Chuck told her the original dogs had come from a breeder on the west coast of Canada, but had her swear to never reveal the kennel name. Tina tried to breed a dog for him with a reverse mask, but was unsuccessful, although reverse masks do pop up occasionally in the Shiloh Shepherds."


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

JenH1125 said:


> Like I said in my original post. I am not new to German Shepherds, *I’ve been raising them and been raised with them my entire life. I’m confident in my breeder. *


Then why are you asking random people on a message board? Your breeder should know the answer and you should be confident in that answer. 

Unless this is a repeat banned person having a slow day again cuz those are most certainly NOT excellent show lines.


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

dogma13 said:


> Those are beautiful little pups and attractive sire and dam.I think the members here are only concerned that you might want to do a little more research before committing.Simply to not be surprised by genetic temperament differences and health issues down the road.


This! There are big differences between Huskies and German Shepherds. I grew up with Huskies. It’s why I have a GSD now.

Huskies are runners, they tend to kill small animals, they are diggers and howlers, they aren’t known for their loyalty or biddability, they are not protective.

I wanted a dog that looked like a Husky but was loyal, biddable, highly trainable, could be off leash, protective, etc. That was a GSD.

It depends on what the OP wants. I’d hate to think she wanted the traits of a GSD only to get Husky traits. Huskies are beautiful, but I would never own one again.


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## JenH1125 (Sep 9, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Define reputable breeder. One of the criteria that you surely must agree with is that a reputable breeder only breeds purebred dogs.


Yes, purebred dogs. Which these are. Granted I haven’t purchased a GSD in the past 4 years but last time I checked.... AKC isn’t in the habit of giving mixed breed dogs papers.
I have physically gone to this breeder and I have met the parents and all of her other German Shepherds. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that they are all - including dad - purebred - I mean, nevermind the AKC papers and the medical testing clearing the puppies and their last 5 generations of dysplasia and DM (criteria for reputable?) which I already mentioned in previous posts.

I’m not stupid. Like I said, I’m 40, and this is, over my entire lifetime, at least the 10th - 14th German Shepherd I’ve had. All papered dogs from excellent breeders.

I learned of these colorings about 15 years ago when I purchased my last one, I sought out a breeder to specifically find this color variation. Intentionally!

Like I said - if none of you are familiar with the mask that’s fine. But if you are familiar with how much sable GSDs change then that would be useful information for me because technically that is what they are - Silver Sable GSDs. Furthermore, per AKC washed out coloring, blues and livers (yes those exist too) are faults and white GSDs are completely disqualified. GSDs are not disqualified per their mask and silver sable is a listed color. So please move on from this argument. I know what I’m buying. 

My last dog was a tan sable and all of the others I’ve ever had were standard saddlebacks. Unfortunately I had a hard drive crash years ago and cannot even compare my last dogs adult photos with his puppy photos to compare even how he changed with age. 

Again- not hardly new to the breed. I’m well aware of what their bodies are judged by and FYI.... just because you don’t see that slope in the parents back in the photos I listed does not mean that I didn’t see it myself while I was there. I rarely ever caught my last dog Sebastian in a photo where he was standing at rest perfectly showing his slope, Yet he was an absolutely stunning dog with an amazing pedigree.

I’m not going to be breeding or showing this dog. It’s a family pet and again I very specifically sought out these markings. And the ONLY thing I want to know is which puppy to pick that will most likely grow to have a dark reverse mask.


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## JenH1125 (Sep 9, 2020)

Jax08 said:


> Then why are you asking random people on a message board? Your breeder should know the answer and you should be confident in that answer.
> 
> Unless this is a repeat banned person having a slow day again cuz those are most certainly NOT excellent show lines.


Perhaps you should actually read my question. No where in my OP did I ask anyone on this forum their thoughts on the pedigree quality of the dog I’m getting.

I am not a breeder so no, I’m not familiar with how these dogs change over time on an overall average and since this will only be the second sable I’ve ever had, I was hoping someone here would have some useful information. And clearly not a single “expert” has actually responded since you are all so incapable of accepting the fact that this is a true GSD color pattern. 

Clearly I misjudged this group.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Has anyone checked this IP address? Currently taking bets....


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

...


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## JenH1125 (Sep 9, 2020)

IllinoisNative said:


> This! There are big differences between Huskies and German Shepherds. I grew up with Huskies. It’s why I have a GSD now.
> 
> Huskies are runners, they tend to kill small animals, they are diggers and howlers, they aren’t known for their loyalty or biddability, they are not protective.
> 
> ...


Actually I am fond of Huskies, but no I don’t want to own one. I have several neighbors and friends that have them and they’re just too much for me.

But again, these aren’t mixed. And actually the parents have great temperaments. I’ve been to lots of breeders, and I am quite impressed with this one’s dogs. I actually considered buying the dad and skipping the puppy stages but I just couldn’t do it, plus he’s out of my price range anyway, and she hasn’t made her mind up yet if she’s going to sell him for sure or when and I don’t want to wait.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

...


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

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## JenH1125 (Sep 9, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Like I said, I am not sure what you aren't understanding about we are all familiar with the mask. Hence, our responses.
> 
> I currently own several sables and am just a teensy bit familiar with their color changes.
> 
> ...


My irritation is that comment right there. 👆🏻
They are not mixed breed puppies. How many times do I have to clarify that to get an answer to my one and only question?

And my comment regarding the stack was in response to the poster who posted the photos of the stacked dogs as an argument that the dogs I’m asking about aren’t formed correctly.


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

JenH1125 said:


> Actually I am fond of Huskies, but no I don’t want to own one. I have several neighbors and friends that have them and they’re just too much for me.
> 
> But again, these aren’t mixed. And actually the parents have great temperaments. I’ve been to lots of breeders, and I am quite impressed with this one’s dogs. I actually considered buying the dad and skipping the puppy stages but I just couldn’t do it, plus he’s out of my price range anyway, and she hasn’t made her mind up yet if she’s going to sell him for sure or when and I don’t want to wait.


I certainly understand your passion and excitement. However, I would bet my life that those dogs aren’t 100% GSDs. Trust us on this. Please do not spend $900 on these puppies. We’re trying to help you. They may have a great temperament and you may be happy with one of these pups. Just go in knowing that they aren’t GSDs nor are they well bred...even for Huskies. 

You have some of the most experienced GSD people on this forum. You aren’t going to get better advice. You said these were show line dogs. They aren’t. They don't meet the breed standard in confirmation. That isn’t opinion, that’s fact.

Please post the pedigree so people can help you.


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> Has anyone checked this IP address? Currently taking bets....


Ha! I don’t know why that didn’t occur to me.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

...


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

@JenH1125 I'm afraid nobody can answer your original question if these puppies will be maskless or not.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

JenH1125 said:


> I’m not going to be breeding or showing this dog. It’s a family pet and again I very specifically sought out these markings. And the ONLY thing I want to know is which puppy to pick that will most likely grow to have a dark reverse mask.


Neither


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Sabis mom said:


> Neither


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## chuckd (Jul 16, 2019)

IllinoisNative said:


> Huskies are runners, they tend to kill small animals, they are diggers and howlers, they aren’t known for their loyalty or biddability, they are not protective.... Huskies are beautiful, but I would never own one again.


TRUTH!

I lost count of how many dead birds, opossums and cats that I had to dispose of, thanks to my 3 huskies. Thank God it was _only_ 1 skunk, though... not fun.


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## JenH1125 (Sep 9, 2020)

IllinoisNative said:


> I certainly understand your passion and excitement. However, I would bet my life that those dogs aren’t 100% GSDs. Trust us on this. Please do not spend $900 on these puppies. We’re trying to help you. They may have a great temperament and you may be happy with one of these pups. Just go in knowing that they aren’t GSDs nor are they well bred...even for Huskies.
> 
> You have some of the most experienced GSD people on this forum. You aren’t going to get better advice. You said these were show line dogs. They aren’t. They don't meet the breed standard in confirmation. That isn’t opinion, that’s fact.
> 
> Please post the pedigree so people can help you.





IllinoisNative said:


> I certainly understand your passion and excitement. However, I would bet my life that those dogs aren’t 100% GSDs. Trust us on this. Please do not spend $900 on these puppies. We’re trying to help you. They may have a great temperament and you may be happy with one of these pups. Just go in knowing that they aren’t GSDs nor are they well bred...even for Huskies.
> 
> You have some of the most experienced GSD people on this forum. You aren’t going to get better advice. You said these were show line dogs. They aren’t. They don't meet the breed standard in confirmation. That isn’t opinion, that’s fact.
> 
> Please post the pedigree so people can help you.


These are AKC registered German Shepherd puppies. I don’t think you need any information other than that to confirm that they are not mixed.
I don’t have a copy of the pedigree yet as I haven’t fully purchased the dog, and I didn’t ask her for a copy of it. I’ll get it when we complete the transaction with the rest of the papers.

And since all I’m buying is a pet, I’m not concerned with its pedigree in the least bit other than the fact that it’s a healthy purebred with no history of health defects. The parents were calm well mannered, obedient GSDs, as were the rest of her dogs. I’m not buying a dog to show or compete with.

All I’m trying to say is stop telling me you don’t know about mixed breeds, because I am not asking you about a mixed breed. And stop arguing with me about whether or not it’s purebred when I’ve already confirmed that.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> Has anyone checked this IP address? Currently taking bets....


Yup


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

...


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

OP you have already ascertained that you won't get the answers you're looking for here (on this thread). Why not move on to others threads where your experience from owning and raising "10-14" GSD might be of more value? Drop this and start anew....


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## JenH1125 (Sep 9, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> If you aren’t asking about mixed breeds, how about posting pictures of the purebred puppies? That would settle everything.


Umm....the pictures of the puppies are in my original post. There are 2 puppy photos. The two I’m trying to choose between, They are 3 weeks old in the photos I posted.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

JenH1125 said:


> These are full blooded AKC German Shepherds, with excellent show bloodlines and full clearance for DM and dysplasia. They do look like huskies which is what I think is so cool about them! 😍 The pics aren’t the greatest but the parents have excellent GSD form. And yes, the Littlest Hobo is a perfect example. Dad is around 3 years old and his litermates sold for $3500. I’m buying mine for $900 (no breeding rights).


I'm wondering what you feel the motivation is for the members here in which you are in disagreement? They all regularly post complimentary comments on pictures of mixed breed dogs. There isn't some stigma against these puppies on the board. There is no malicious intent here to make you feel bad about the dogs in question. Nor is there any superiority complex motivating anyone to demean you, the dogs or anyone else besides the breeder.

Everyone is trying to help you make an informed decision about a puppy and not get scammed.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

JenH1125 said:


> These are AKC registered German Shepherd puppies. I don’t think you need any information other than that to confirm that they are not mixed.
> I don’t have a copy of the pedigree yet as I haven’t fully purchased the dog, and I didn’t ask her for a copy of it. I’ll get it when we complete the transaction with the rest of the papers.
> 
> And since all I’m buying is a pet, I’m not concerned with its pedigree in the least bit other than the fact that it’s a healthy purebred with no history of health defects. The parents were calm well mannered, obedient GSDs, as were the rest of her dogs. I’m not buying a dog to show or compete with.
> ...


Unethical people have starting mixing in other breeds to get rare colors to scam people with. They lie in order to get AKC papers. I’m sorry to say it but you’re being scammed. You can obviously still choose to go buy a pup but just letting you know you aren’t getting a purebred German Shepherd even if it comes with papers.

As far as hips go if they’re cleared for 5 gens the only way they could do that is if they all have passing hip scores in which case there would be OFA records and other health records you could share.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

JenH1125 said:


> Umm....the pictures of the puppies are in my original post. There are 2 puppy photos. The two I’m trying to choose between, They are 3 weeks old in the photos I posted.


Where did I say you didn't post puppy photos? I clearly asked for you to post pictures of the purebred GSD puppies.

Since you confirmed from three separate sources that this backyard breeder is reputable, why don't you go to those sources with your questions?


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## Shadow Shep (Apr 16, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> I believe there is one breeder trying to preserve it.


There is, but I'm still looking on the website to see if it is legitimate.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

_There's no way to answer the question.The OP stated in the first post that the breeder was unsure if the pups would be maskless.If the OP wishes to ask about pedigrees she is welcome to start a new thread._


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## Shadow Shep (Apr 16, 2020)

_deleted response_


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