# So how do you break up a fight & treat them after?



## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

I'm curious what other people are doing in a multi dog house (ours is a dual dog house.) During the fight to make it stop and after to let the dogs know what they did was wrong, don't do it again.

Otto is 7 months, full of puppy nonsense and budding teenage terror. Morgan is 7 years, reformed terrorist and the Queen of Mean.

When Morgan used to brawl with Luther, it was mostly play. He was 3 years older than her and 40lbs or so bigger. If he did something wrong she'd correct him- starting about the time she was 2. Luther would take a correction from her but if she was mean to him for no reason, he would flip her on her back and grab her throat. He never hurt her, he just let her know he wasn't taking her crap. She wasn't often mean to him for no reason.

Now with Otto, he'll also take the correction if he's done something wrong - like crashing into her when he's playing, trying to steal her food or toys. He lays down and looks up at her like 'Sorry!' Morgan usually kisses him on the muzzle and walks away with her tail high.

If he doesn't know he's done something wrong, he'll fight back. I have to step in, usually I yell at Morgan to stop, she does and I grab Otto's collar.

They do wrestle a bit but she has to instigate the play. If he starts with her, she just lets him hang off her neck until she gets sick of it and throws him on the floor. This isn't going to last becuase he's getting BIG, he's already almost as tall and has to weigh more now.

This morning, I don't know what Morgan thought Otto was doing wrong. She had just finished her breakfast, the kids were eating their cheerios and Otto had run off into the other room. He wasn't messing with anything but I brought him into the kitchen becuase I didn't want him playing with the laundry. 

I was closing the door (right next to where the kids were eating) when Morgan went after him, why I dunno. She was done with her food, there were no toys, he was just walking into the room when she nailed him, tore a bit of fur out of his ear (no bleeding mercy I hope he doesn't have a scar). 

I yelled at her but she didn't stop, got a hold of his collar and he was MAD. After about a minute of screaming at them, they stopped so I smacked them both on the nose telling them THERE IS NO FIGHTING - not hard just enough to get their attention. 

I yelled at scolded him and sent him to lay down under the table. She was laying down in her spot where she eats so I sat down, held up her nose so she had to look at me, gave her a seriously mean mommy look and told her NO FIGHTING. 

He went over and kissed her a while later, after she'd moved from her food spot, if that means anything.

Sorry so long I just wanted to get in as much info as possible about how what and why (or why according to me)

I don't want them fighting. Wrestling is one thing but this was MEAN. He's going to hurt her, she's no rubber puppy anymore, she's 7, thin and has arthritis.

Help me, please!


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## djpohn (Jun 27, 2003)

*Re: So how do you break up a fight & treat them after?*



> Quote:This morning, I don't know what Morgan thought Otto was doing wrong. She had just finished her breakfast, the kids were eating their cheerios and Otto had run off into the other room.


Kids drop food and she obviously views the kitchen as her territory for eating. I would not allow them in the kitchen when the kids are eating. I would feed them both in their crates and keep them locked up until both are finished.


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## BJDimock (Sep 14, 2008)

*Re: So how do you break up a fight & treat them after?*

Jenn, it sounds like Otto is starting with his adolescent stage, and Morgan knows it. She may be trying to hold on to her spot as head of household.
Fenna went into heat last week and I had the first fight ever to break out amongst my dogs.
Ilan, the head of this dog household, went to take Fenna's bone away, and all **** broke loose!
In the end, I chose to verbally reprimand Ilan, and I crated Fenna.
Ilan must remain at the head in this household for peace to reign. Because Ilan listened to me, I didn't feel as though I had slipped any. Fenna was brought down a notch by me crating her, and all was brought back to the way it should be.
(Having Mr. Adolescent Six Month Old, I'm The Only Man Frodo, doesn't help my situation much.)
Stay in control, and help Morgan retain her status.


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## dOg (Jan 23, 2006)

> Quote: help Morgan retain her status.


Unless she's gonna grow a set, this is not likely. Sooner or later he will be alpha male of the dog pack, probably sooner than she'd like.

In the meantime, how you handled it is pretty much how I would have.
They both have to know, you decide what's what, and there will be repurcussions an consequences for forgetting that, even for a moment,
even outside.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

*Re: So how do you break up a fight & treat them after?*

I'd say the food with the kids to,,I have a male aussie, and you don't need to drop a piece of food,,you can just be around food, if he's in the area,,he feels he owns that space and will let you know it..(and he is banished from the area by me if he even looks cross eyed)

Masi is the youngest here (8mths) and she can cause some trouble ))) When she gets a reprimand from one of the other dogs, she hits the dirt she knows she best back off..(altho they've never really taken it further).. I let the others reprimand her (barring blood of course!) so she is 'getting' what she can and cannot get away with..Of course I reprimand them when needed as well, but they tend to work the dog dynamics out themselves, with little intervention from me.

And DOG,,I don't know if you've ever had female's before,,but in my household having had/have multiple dogs of both sexes,,my female gsd was a dog that the others "bowed" down to ...You didn't mess with her, and if you did, you knew it. 

My male gsd's when I've had more than two dogs,,have never really been the 'leaders',,the females always get in the last word here..))


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## Hatterasser (Oct 25, 2007)

*Re: So how do you break up a fight & treat them after?*

Thor and Freya like to 'play' fight all the time. Thor will down Freya and she'll roll over on her back; i.e. allows him to be the big alpha boy. I watch and don't interfere unless they get to carried away, at which time I call out to Thor "leave it", which he usually does. On the rare occasions when he's too much into it, I'll grab his collar (or leash if he's on one) and pull him away, pulling him to me with a "No! No fighting!". 

The only time I saw real fighting, in that they mean business and aren't playing, was between Thor and Seamus. Seamus was not playing...he was fighting to kill. The first time I was an idiot (but then I was scared to death and not thinking). I grabbed Thor's collar and Seamus's collar with my other hand, yanking them apart. Seamus had his teeth pretty well into Thor's shoulder and I was afraid to yank real hard or he'd have taken some of Thor's shoulder with him. During a momentary pause, I was able to get them apart and shoved Thor behind me and Seamus in the opposite direction. Thor stopped fighting, licking his wounds instead. Seamus I had to grab and drag away as he wasn't done yet. Both dogs ended up in the vet's office for repairs and stitches.

The second time was when Seamus finally lost it. He'd had a seizure (which we later realized he'd been having all along), came out of it standing next to Freya, turned and bit her. She whimpered and that's all Thor had to hear. He came running like a bat out of ****, jammed between the two of them like a wedge, toppling Seamus on his side. Seamus was up and on his feet in seconds and went for Thor's face. We were in my kitchen, a 6' x 7' square area....three GSD's and me, two of them tearing each other to bits. I had told folks here about the first fight and had been told how dumb I was to get between them with my hands near their mouths. This time, I grabbed a sheet from the laundry pile, spread it out and threw it over Thor's entire head, blocking his eyes, nose, ears and the top of the mouth. Then I started pulling and pulling him away from Seamus. As soon as I got them separated, I sat on the floor with Thor blinded with the sheet and my foot against Seamus holding him against the stove. We all just sat there until their breathing became normal before I dragged Thor, still blinded to the back deck and went back to lock Seamus in the hallway. 

Of course, I should add that during the battle, they had succeeded in dumping a two gallon can of white enamel paint on the floor so we were sliding around in 2" of paint and blood everywhere. It was a truly fun day. 

I think if the playing is just that, playing, like Thor and Freya do, you can just separate them and scold them for unacceptable behavior. The only time I would worry is if they're serious....and I can tell you from experience....a blanket or sheet covering one dog's head ends the fight pretty quickly. Then separate them at once, crate or bathroom or someplace to keep them apart until they calm down.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

*Re: So how do you break up a fight & treat them af*

Morgan is definitely trying to maintain her status as top dog. I reinforce this with her, don't want her to loose her standing and Otto is pretty easy going. 

I don't think Otto wants to be top dog, he just doesn't want her beating him up for no reason. So he fights back, she gets meaner, he gets hurt so he tries to hurt her back which hasn't happened. Or if it has happened, she hasn't shown that he's hurt her.



> Originally Posted By: HatterasserOf course, I should add that during the battle, they had succeeded in dumping a two gallon can of white enamel paint on the floor so we were sliding around in 2" of paint and blood everywhere. It was a truly fun day.


That sounds crazy! 

I'm going to try your idea of throwing something over the head - probably Otto's becuase he's the one who doesn't back down. There's usually a bathtowel rag on the kitchen floor becuase he drools water everywhere.



> Originally Posted By: JakodaCD OAAnd DOG,,I don't know if you've ever had female's before,,but in my household having had/have multiple dogs of both sexes,,my female gsd was a dog that the others "bowed" down to ...You didn't mess with her, and if you did, you knew it.
> 
> My male gsd's when I've had more than two dogs,,have never really been the 'leaders',,the females always get in the last word here..))


That's Morgan. She ruled over Luther from about the time she was 2. He was much bigger and stronger, he would flip her and grab her by the throat if she was mean to him for no reason, only becuase he could. 

When Morgan used to correct him for barking at people after I'd told them to stop, my guy friends would ask why she's so mean to him.







I used to tell them 'What happens to you when you don't listen to your wife?'


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## Nikkoli110 (Sep 9, 2008)

*Re: So how do you break up a fight & treat them af*

JENN! I think we have mirror image households! Ok except for the kids...but we just started having the same issue! Katie has always been easy going, but stands her ground. If Titan goes and tries to take her toy, she grows and he goes away. She doesn't do anything near the food yet. Last night, for no reason I could see, she went after him. No toys were nearby, no food, he was just walking, she was laying down, and she got up and started on him, biting and growling, and he yelped. I yelled and they stopped. It was scary. I'm tagging along to see more answers! It freaked me out!


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

*Re: So how do you break up a fight & treat them af*

Oh no, Nikki, not the pair who cuddle together!!! My two are never that close, Morgan wouldn't allow it. You know how she is about her personal space. Otto gives her a wide berth when she's laying down. If he's playing and his toy goes near her, he makes me get it for him becuase she's nailed him a few times for that.

Maybe Katie is developing a personal space issue - I hope not. Maybe she thought he was walking towards a toy she values?


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

*Re: So how do you break up a fight & treat them af*

I haven't found that it's OUR choice as to who is the "alpha" dog in a group and who isn't. Trying to keep one dog as alpha to suit the human assessment of the hierarchy usually leads to huge problems. Some dogs are just naturally more dominant than others, and there will be constant struggles if a less dominant dog is given all the perks and you try to force the more dominant dog into a lower position.

Nearly all the hierarchy/fighting problems in an established group of dogs are due to human failure to provide adequate leadership. The true alpha should ALWAYS be the human and if a fight starts and you can't stop it with one bellowed "NO! KNOCK IT OFF!" then you're not truly being seen as the alpha personality in the group. I've been living with multiple bitches (at least three, up to five at one point, currently at four) and I don't have any problems with fights. If there's some snipping, all I do is raise my voice and it stops immediately. 

There are many ways to create leadership in the dog's mind. NILIF, of course, controlling ALL resources, and using "crowding" methods to teach your dogs to instantly submit to you will generally work well. While many people use the NILIF, I think that actual control of the resources is not emphasized enough in many homes and I doubt that most people have a good concept of "crowding" (and I wouldn't recommend it if you have a dog that you can't trust to not bite you - I don't have any fears that my dogs will bite me). Crowding is where you use your body to push a dog out of a room by continually crowding the dog until he has to move out the doorway. You don't say anything, you simply stand up tall and walk into (not pushing, just in their space) the dog. And you keep following/crowding until you've pushed the dog out of the room. Many dogs view it as a game at first until you continue to do it and they start to feel the stress reaction that shows they're feeling your dominance.. It's very much a mental exercise and I do it with all of my dogs just to reinforce my status. 

I make sure to do this frequently with young (especially teenager age) dogs because as they go through their transition to adulthood they are going to test the structure of the group to see where they fit. While they may have to work out where they belong in the dogs, there is to be NO doubt where they belong when it comes to ME .. *L* .. I have to be a strong leader or I would have continual bitch fights.

In two decades I've had one fight between dogs that ended up in stitches (shortly after I lost my old male shepherd, the yearling GSD tried to step up and fought with Trick). A couple of times I've had two of the chows disagree a bit, no serious injuries. And other than that I've lived with multiple dogs with no problems. I do have one that sleeps on the bed with me, and there's no bickering about it. It's MY choice! And when it comes to food, I can feed the four girls in dishes side by side and they better not grumble - they eat their food and then they know to wait until the others are done before they can inspect the dishes to see what may be left. No one is allowed to resource guard. Since Trick has gotten older and more laid back, I do have to watch that the others don't stick their noses in and eat her food (she will let them, silly girl) but that's not a fighting issue since she allows it. I've never had to separate dogs to feed them, nor are they allowed to fight over food on the floor. 

It's a state of mind, a constant mental dominance that becomes a way of life if you're going to successfully live with multiple dogs.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

*Re: So how do you break up a fight & treat them af*

Thanks Melanie, I hadn't thought about it that my being the alpha I couldn't choose who comes next. Morgan has always been on NILIF...

Anyone else have any thoughts?

M-n-O have bee getting along wonderfully since yesterday. Otto has been giving her peace offerings, lol, he's been bringing toys that she likes to her. 

In thinking about it somemore, she may have been angry with him becuase the day before, he tore an arm off her stuffed squirrel. She does hold a grudge and will sometimes wait quite a while before she exacts her revenge. In short, the bitch is quite a bitch and even if he wants it, she's not giving up her status...


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

*Re: So how do you break up a fight & treat them af*

I agree with melanie,,we can't choose,,it just "is"..especially having multiple dogs,,there is always going to be some bossier/pusher, a leader, a follower..

I don't enforce one dog over the other,,other than when handing out treats it's age before beauty LOL


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

*Re: So how do you break up a fight & treat them af*

I've described my two major fights a couple of times. Bottom line is that you have to be the pack leader, not either of the dogs. 

Covering their eyes/nose/mouths with a towel or blanket as someone mentioned, does disorient them enough to get them to release...I always have a blanket on my passenger seat and that is what I used to get two females apart who wanted to kill each other. If the fight is really really truley serious and nasty, you may never trust the dogs again together...if it is a minor squabble, really strong voice corrections and depriving them of your company- interaction for a time is a good route to go. Keeping an e-collar on the instigator is an option as well if the dog is conditioned to one and you are comfortable with using it for corrections.

Lee


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## Emily (Nov 8, 2008)

*Re: So how do you break up a fight & treat them af*

Hey Jenn

Sounds like a rough week! I agree with some of what's already been said but wanted to add to it:

You need to be the one who gives corrections to both dogs. By allowing Morgan to "correct" Otto because you feel she should retain her "status", you are telling her it's okay to pick on him. That being said, I also have always experienced that females end up in the top spot among the dogs naturally. But remember, YOU are the top spot! If they're (or just she) is being nasty about a toy, take it away, nobody gets it when they act like that! This will also reinforce that you are the one who decides who gets play time, not Morgan.

Whenever there's a squabble in my house (I have anywhere from 4 to 7 dogs in the house at any time), all I have to do is yell "HEY!", and it stops immediately. I also draw the line of roughhousing much earlier than it sounds like you do. In my house, running and having a good time is fine, but there is no clobbering one another or bullying by ANYONE. Because I correct for this type of behavior, I feel it helps it not to escalate to more serious disagreements. 

I have had some really bad fights between dogs that then could not be trusted together again, not fun. Hopefully if you're dilligent you can keep the peace from now on.

There have been a lot of good tips here for you, I hope things improve quickly. Good luck!

Emily


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

*Re: So how do you break up a fight & treat them af*

I was just up at my cousins' farm for a few days and they have a golden doodle who is about a year younger than Rafi. He is HUGE and has a very sweet and submissive personality but he loves to play rough. Rafi loves playing with him but has been growly with him in the house before if Blaze comes too close to his toy or bed or some sort of space issue. It happened twice when I was there--once at the door and another time in the kitchen when Blaze was in between me and Rafi and was trying to get Rafi to play. Rafi growled and snapped both times and both times I gave Rafi the business! After the second time Rafi got chewed out and sent to his bed by me he did not do it again, no matter what Blaze did. 

And Chama is similar to Morgan--very grumpy about space. But I only let her get away with so much. If she starts acting inappropriately (which is what Morgan was doing) then I tell her in no uncertain terms that I am running the show around here. She is a very insecure alpha and at her advanced age has nothing to back up all that bravado and could get seriously injured by another dog. These days she usually lets me take care of her. 

Also just wanted to confirm that sex and size have NOTHING to do with a dog's status. When Chama was younger, all she needed was a look to get the biggest gsd in the world to back down.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

*Re: So how do you break up a fight & treat them af*

Thanks for all the advice, guys. Thinking about it, this time I didn't send Morgan out of the room , which I should have. A few times when she's been mean to him in the play room, I've sent her to lay on her bed (which is in her crate) and gotten total respect out of her for days. 

Don't think she has trouble understanding I'm in charge. Usually the puppy backs down when she wrinkles her nose or grunts at him. However, he's a teenage brat and he's getting to the point he's not taking a beating from her for no reason. He also doesn't listen like she does. When I yell at them to knock it off, Morgan backs off but if Otto is still coming for her, she's back in it. 

Guess I've got to work on her not starting with him becuase Otto is NEVER the one to start with her. He tries to get her to play with him but he doesn't do anything I see as aggression. All he wants is to play with his ball. He's a pretty easy going boy for a working line pup.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

*Re: So how do you break up a fight & treat them af*

Reading the responses brought out another thought on my part. I DO allow my dogs to grumble at each other. They're allowed to communicate, even if that means a growl at times. I have found that it's important that they are allowed to say "get out of my face!" to another dog that is pushing them. But I only allow it to a certain level and then I step in and do the "KNOCK IT OFF" and they stop immediately.

In the "old days" we used to correct our dogs for every sign/sound of "aggression" (I put that in quote marks because aggression was a very broad concept at that point). Any growl, grumble, raised hackle, stiff body was immediately corrected. And what we did was take away our dogs' abilities to communicate and to show that they were uncomfortable with a situation. What we then ended up with was that some dogs went from looking completely calm and relaxed, to full-blown aggressive attack without any precursors. And this was completely our mistake. Now we had dogs that were not readable and were completely unpredictable.

When my dogs get chewies there are times when one finishes and goes to sniff at another and I hear a growl from the one that is still chewing. I allow that. The other dog is to back off at that point (and if they don't, I make them). The one still chewing has a right to say "NO, you can't have this, it's mine!". Now *I* can take a chewie at any time from my dogs and there's to be no grumbling or growling. I have that right and I practice that on occasion (usually trading it for another goodie and then giving the chewie back to them). I know they don't really want to give up the treat (and body language sometimes shows it - the chows especially will get stiff) but they accept it. I can reach in their mouths and take something out and don't have any fears of getting bit.

Another note: for some people, it's difficult to be authoritative enough in a group situation. I think some naturally present an alpha image and others don't. With those "nicer" people, I've had some use a tool to help emphasize their authority. It can be something as simple as a piece of doweling that is used to tap on the floor, to tap on the dog to help crowd them out of a room, etc. It's not a stick to beat on the dog, but it does seem to help people appear more "alpha" and dogs tend to be more reactive - in the right way - to this appearance. So that's a possibility for those who are having a bit of trouble getting their dogs to truly see them as the leader.

It takes work, at least initially. Once you're in that mode, however, it just comes naturally. I don't think about it, I just do things to keep myself in the right position to the dogs. We play, we have fun, we do tug-of-war, I give treats, we have a relaxed and happy household - but there's no doubt, when I raise my voice, that all the dogs are to respond and submit. And that's a really good thing, because with my joint condition my dogs are stronger than I am these days. I have to keep them mentally controlled or we'd be in big trouble.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## elfwofle (Dec 22, 2007)

*Re: So how do you break up a fight & treat them af*

I have 5 dogs in my house- 4 are mine, 1 is a foster. We have had 2 big fights here (both were before the foster got here), and both were this year. They were both between my GSD and a whippet mix, both are females too; and everytime the GSD (who is the only intact dog I have) went into heat within 2 weeks after the fights. The first fight was easy to break up, I just had to yell at them and the GSD broke it off (the whippet mix was tryig to get away from the onset of the fight) but not before causing $1000 worth of damage. The second fight I had to physicaly remove the GSD- I had to grab her on both sides of the neck and pull her off. I know, not the smartest move, but I did it on instinct, and I had no fear of my GSD biting me. 
Both times I would lay her down on her side for a few minutes. The last fight I made her lay down on her side for about 10 minutes till I could calm down (I was a little livid). While she is laying on her side, I do allow the other dogs to come up and sniff her. It seems to put her back into her place and she does not start another fight. The GSD _is_ the alpha female, and there is also an alpha male who is a beagle/golden retriever mix (reagle for short), the whippet mix is lower on the "totum pole"; but I am ultimate alpha and all the dogs know it.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

*Re: So how do you break up a fight & treat them af*

Good thoughts, Melanie, thank you again. Mostly when Morgan corrects the pup, it's usually grunts or wrinkling up her nose showing her teeth. When he was really small, I tried to correct her for growling at him but someone said 'Oh no, you'll get a dog who doesn't warn, she just strikes' So now I let her give the pup a warning which he *usually* listens to. 

Morgan and I are long over her testing me for dominance. She knows she's not getting the top spot here, that's me. Otto has been deferring to her too, he always lets her walk through the door first, she walks up the stairs first etc.

He's a butthead though, they were outside this morning, he was trying to get her to wrestle, she was ignoring him and he started barking in her face. Goofy puppy barking until she finally opened snapped her jaws at him. 

When he tries to grab her neck goofing around, I've started walking in between them, pushing him away with my leg and telling him to knock it off. Hopefully this is a good approach, too early to tell if he's getting it. Telling him knock it off when he grabs her neck, he just ignores me and Morgan ends up growling and snapping at him.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

*Re: So how do you break up a fight & treat them af*

Jenn, you might try taking the "pushing" to a new level, and do some crowding exercises with Otto (and with Morgan, too, so that she will understand). When Otto takes things that step too far, give your "no" command (I use "EHT!!") and then walk between them and start pushing him back and continue to follow/crowd until you've pushed him completely out of the area (through a doorway if you're indoors). Stand tall and upright and maybe even a bit stiff (think of yourself as being the alpha dog .. *L*). 

Do this consistently and you'll probably start seeing Otto change attitudes pretty quickly when you say "EHT!". Our "no" commands need to be backed up by something consistent in order to be more effective, and the crowding is very effective. I rarely have to do it any more with my girls, but they all got crowded at some point. And I can see more crowding with Tazer coming up in the future as she goes through her "teen" age (she's 18 months now).

It's a passive and yet very strong mental exercise because it forces (without force) your dogs to give into your body language. Dogs are good with body language - they understand it and it's effective with them. 

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

*Re: So how do you break up a fight & treat them af*

Otto is a quick study, he wasn't into grabbing her neck too much today.

The first time, I got between them and pushed him back with my leg telling him to knock it off (they're both used to _that_ phrase).

The second time he grabbed her neck, he was under the kitchen table when she walked by. I couldn't get to them from where I was, Morgan grunted, grabbed him and stuffed him into the wall. He cried, she let go and went on her merry way. 

No fights since the one in my OP. This is good.


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