# How did you figure out that your dog was high drive/stories/advice on high drive dogs



## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

We were told that our dog Skadi was high drive before we brought her home. We soon discovered it was true because she is crazy for a ball and tug and is busy all the time unless she has something to do. She has been learning an off switch in the house and has been doing well, but sometimes she will still chew on things if we don't keep her busy. Grim is not as ball crazy but he still likes to play ball and has a lot of energy. I would love to hear about your high drive dog and how you help them to succeed.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Welll.. let me introduce Titan...  He is 4. I very very quickly learned he was high drive when he was very very young.. about the time I got him home at 8 weeks. He always want the ball.. instantly learned that fetch was a great game.. then soon became obsessed. Initially I thought he was jsut a normal puppy.. but later learned he was a normal high drive puppy.. lol. He has been socialized up the wazoo, trained informally and formally, and is generally a very very good boy.. he however wants NOTHING in life more than to play fetch.. every second of every day. He doesn't even pay mind to anything or anyone when he's playing.. it's all pure focus on what were doing. To him.. fetch is work.. it is his job to get that ball.. people and dogs alike, become obstacles. 

Just yesterday I had played with him.. intense fetch.. about 3 times already.. before work.. came home and took him for an about 2.5 mile run following with about .5 mile walk to cool down. Got home played fetch AGAIN immediately.. and he was out for all offfff... like 30-45 minutes. I would even give him an hour of just laying down, then he was asking to go play fetch again. 

Anyways.. it has been an adventure learning how to get him to a place where he will turn "off" in the house. When he was a puppy it was much more frustrating. I thought if I gave him access to all his toys, he would jsut chew on something, or play with something, but he wanted nothing to do with anyting unless it involved me throwing it and him bringing it back to me. I even had to teach him proper tug, lol. I figured after research and coming on here, that he was a good candidate for "toy restriction" lol. He didn't get any access to toys at all, unless I brought them out. All he got were his bones and Kong. Even his Kong was tricky becaue it looked circular... like a ball. With Toy restriction, he didn't have the option to play or anything. He had the option to go outside, or be calm in the house chewing on a bone. 

That took a while to get him used to but we also had/have a pretty good routine. Right now, he gets either, intense fetch, enough to tire him out, or a good run first thing in the morning. I get ready for work and he gets fed right before I leave. When I get home it's either a long walk or good run, and then more fetch when we get home. That's for his physical stimulation. For mental we do a mixture of OB and scent work. That really really works him mentally and he tends to tucker out quicker. That and mixing in OB and playing. 

We are also part of a SAR orgnaization, currently taking a break, but when we did that, it helped with his energy level. 

I also make him work for everything. He has to stay in a "down, stay" to eat. He has to do some basic OB before we start playing. Mid play we stop and he has to do more OB. Before we go on walks or runs, he has to do a sit, stay while I get ready and then before we take off he is in a sit until I say ok. I would say too that his toy restriction raelly really helped his energy level when we were inside. He doesn't have a choice but to be calm.

I am looking at getting into agility for fun, just for more physical and mental stimulation and he has the drive for it so I know he would probably be great.

How old is Skadi? What's her background, if you know?


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Lovely to hear about Titan! Skadi is the same way. She is on the same toy restriction and is only given toys in the house at certain times, otherwise we give her raw bones to chew because it helps her settle. She will be 2 in April. Her previous home returned her because she used to resource guard her toys and food and they had a child. We have mostly worked her through this except with especially tasty bones. We brought her home last June and our breeder let us know she was high drive. Her exact words were "You want her? She's nonstop!" She then went on to tell us that Skadi would need a job


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

are you planning on doing any fun training with her? Do you have a kind of routine with her? I know that it makes a huge difference with Titan if we switch our routine. When we move.. he gets into this anxious state.. of OMG we need to do something now.. then the routine gets back into play and he's fine again.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

So far Pan has been the highest drive dog I've raised. I'd call him a solid "high drive" but not extreme. High because it took very little, if anything to get him going and he would work work work for hours and still be having fun. He was not a dog that had to be lured or constantly "motivated" with rewards in order to stay engaged. Even when he saw a good amount of pressure in Schutzhund training he wanted to be there, wanted to do the work. When it came to flyball, he was just about out of control! NO rewards necessary there, just doing it all weekend was self-rewarding for him (made him harder to train since making mistakes were just as fun as doing it right and NRMs never made one lick of difference). His hunt drive and food drive were not as high, it was mostly prey drive with a low threshold. He was also a dog that needed some human interaction, metal, and physical work to be kept in check. Not a dog that would lie by my side if I were sick for a week. I didn't "figure" it out but specifically bought a dog that would have higher prey drive and be good for many sports. Pan was actually a bit of a sleeper puppy, pretty mellow for the first 6 months.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

In the mornings before we work, she gets a workout playing and running with Grim in the backyard. When we get home, we take them both for a long hike, then my husband plays ball and tug with her with obedience mixed in, a few more play sessions/a ball/ tug session for Grim, then they get bones. Grim earns his dinner with obedience and handling exercises, and Skadi, who is getting over hand shyness, is handled for her food. We are taking her to an IPO group for obedience weekly, and soon we will also bring Grim once he is done with his first humane society class. We are unsure of whether she is suited for bitework, but she enjoys obedience there because it is so tug driven.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

awesome! Well test out IPO and if it doesn't pan out, you can try other stuff  Sounds lieka good routine, I'd love to take Titan hiking more often. Though when we go, he always finds sticks and brings it back to us for fetch... lol


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Skadi will bring me socks to tug with in the absence of toys....sounds familiar.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Haha! Yes.. Titan is like Skadi but with fetch.. lol ANYTHING is a fetch toy.. he's tried pine cones, rocks, sand, a leaf, crummpled papers.. and most recently a twig.. I kid you not.. it was about a millimeter in thickness and about 4 inches long.. it didn't even withstand him bringing it to me. *sigh* lol


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Liesje said:


> So far Pan has been the highest drive dog I've raised. I'd call him a solid "high drive" but not extreme. High because it took very little, if anything to get him going and he would work work work for hours and still be having fun. He was not a dog that had to be lured or constantly "motivated" with rewards in order to stay engaged. Even when he saw a good amount of pressure in Schutzhund training he wanted to be there, wanted to do the work. When it came to flyball, he was just about out of control! NO rewards necessary there, just doing it all weekend was self-rewarding for him (made him harder to train since making mistakes were just as fun as doing it right and NRMs never made one lick of difference). His hunt drive and food drive were not as high, it was mostly prey drive with a low threshold. He was also a dog that needed some human interaction, metal, and physical work to be kept in check. Not a dog that would lie by my side if I were sick for a week. I didn't "figure" it out but specifically bought a dog that would have higher prey drive and be good for many sports. Pan was actually a bit of a sleeper puppy, pretty mellow for the first 6 months.


Skadi would probably find flyball pretty self rewarding as well...She is also high prey drive with a low threshold, not as food motivated, but she loves for me to hide her ball for her to find, and can do it for hours if I'd let her...


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

wyoung2153 said:


> Haha! Yes.. Titan is like Skadi but with fetch.. lol ANYTHING is a fetch toy.. he's tried pine cones, rocks, sand, a leaf, crummpled papers.. and most recently a twig.. I kid you not.. it was about a millimeter in thickness and about 4 inches long.. it didn't even withstand him bringing it to me. *sigh* lol


Skadi would tug on our clothes before we played tug with her... We ended up with quite a few tattered clothes and a tattered couch lol


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

glowingtoadfly said:


> We soon discovered it was true because she is crazy for a ball and tug and is busy all the time unless she has something to do. She has been learning an off switch in the house and has been doing well, but sometimes she will still chew on things if we don't keep her busy.


This sounds a little more like hyperactivity, not high drive, or just a combo of the two. People seem to confuse the two a lot on here. 

I'll leave this up to the experts to confirm, but I always thought of the "off switch" as genetic. The dog either has it or doesn't. It can be managed if the dog doesn't have it, but a high drive dog with solid nerve should have no problem settling in the house, with or without tons of exercise or activity.



Liesje said:


> High because it took very little, if anything to get him going and he would work work work for hours and still be having fun.


This is how I'd define high drive.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

She is getting better about settling in the house now that she is two. She is actually relaxing with her ball out right now  She does have a longing to work for hours and good focus. She did fine when we had to limit her exercise because she injured her paw.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

My 11 month old puppy for example. I take the ball out and a switch goes off and he turns into a maniac. The dog breathes fire when his ball comes out. He'll do back flips for me to throw it if I asked him to. I take out the clicker and some treats and 100% focus is on me just waiting for me to start the commands. I took him to obedience classes and he was by far the most food driven and motivated dog in the classes by a long shot. He'll go and go until it's time to go home with pretty much everything he does. Tons of motivation and eager to please. That's his drive.

Now today for example. It's been raining and I've been working on and off all day, so we haven't had a chance to do anything. I've paid next to no attention to him today. He's been laying around and chewing on his toys all day. No whining, no destroying anything, not getting his energy out for him to settle. He's sleeping at my feet right now as I type this. That's his off switch. It just comes natural to him.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

I wonder if it is common for high drive dogs with a slight hyper edge to have trouble settling as teenagers and puppies?


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

glowingtoadfly said:


> I wonder if it is common for high drive dogs with a slight hyper edge to have trouble settling as teenagers and puppies?


From my experience yes. Even by the definition of others here, I'd consider Titan an extremely driven dog. There may be some hyper edge too, but it took him til he was about 2ish to learn to settle in the house. He was never bad, but just wanted to do something.. and mostly only when his ball was in his site. he wanted to work for it. With him being older, and not having access to toys unless I bring them out.. he settle just fine in the house. So IMO I would say the Off-switch can be learned if it's not natural for them. Just because I have witnessed it with Titan. He's sleeping by the front door right now, but if I were to walk toward the back door or pull out his ball.. game on. Once I put the toys away.. he knows it's time to settle.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Lucy Dog said:


> My 11 month old puppy for example. I take the ball out and a switch goes off and he turns into a maniac. The dog breathes fire when his ball comes out. He'll do back flips for me to throw it if I asked him to. I take out the clicker and some treats and 100% focus is on me just waiting for me to start the commands. I took him to obedience classes and he was by far the most food driven and motivated dog in the classes by a long shot. He'll go and go until it's time to go home with pretty much everything he does. Tons of motivation and eager to please. That's his drive.
> 
> Now today for example. It's been raining and I've been working on and off all day, so we haven't had a chance to do anything. I've paid next to no attention to him today. He's been laying around and chewing on his toys all day. No whining, no destroying anything, not getting his energy out for him to settle. He's sleeping at my feet right now as I type this. That's his off switch. It just comes natural to him.


The first paragraph sounds like Skadi, except she is not as food motivated, more toy motivated, although she focuses for clicker training and does great in classes. The second paragraph, well, she is getting there as she is getting older. She is lying on my lap with her ball next to her as I type this, and she spent her morning playing with our nine month old puppy, trying to chew on the water pipe, and doing obedience for treats until 10. She was crated so I could go to a doctors appointment and nap until 3:30. I played a quick couple five minute games of obedience fetch with her after that and now she is cuddled up to me relaxing. No overexertion today because it's my day off...


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

People often confuse "high drive" with "excitable" or "high energy". They are not the same.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

glowingtoadfly said:


> I wonder if it is common for high drive dogs with a slight hyper edge to have trouble settling as teenagers and puppies?


I think that depends on the dog's nerve, maturity, and training. I don't know if it's common, but it's definitely possible. 

Take Lisa's thread from yesterday. I don't know the dog or her pedigree, but I'd imagine this is either a medium or high drive dog. Quite possibly high drive, but you'd have to ask her. She mentions she's been injured and winter's been bad. The dog has no problem settling on the couch and turned into a "couch potato". 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/pictures-pictures-pictures/430330-couch-potato.html

I bet if she took that dog out on a field immediately after taking that picture, it would be like night and day.

High drive and hyperactivity are two very different things.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

I wonder about the combination of drive, excitability, and energy that I see in my dog...


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

glowingtoadfly said:


> I wonder about the combination of drive, excitability, and energy that I see in my dog...


A well rounded dog should have both. Drive (the willingness and motivation to go) and energy (the stamina to keep going). Excitability is fine too as long as it's not out of control and too much for the dog to not be able to focus. Nerve keeps everything in check.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

I know they aren't the same, Hunter. I just wonder if a dog can have a lot of all three.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Lucy Dog said:


> A well rounded dog should have both. Drive (the willingness and motivation to go) and energy (the stamina to keep going). Excitability is fine too as long as it's not out of control and too much for the dog to not be able to focus. Nerve keeps everything in check.


I am told by someone who knew Skadi before me that she had trouble focusing as a puppy, and she had trouble as a teen. Now, she has laser focus.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I think we also need to define "drive". Too often I hear "my dog is high drive" and it's true, but it's too general. There are plenty of TYPES of drive. Ball/prey/play are just one if them. Some dogs have a very high pack drive. They work for the owner not the toy. Some dogs have a high hunt drive, they work for the joy of searching. Some have a high food drive. 

Not every dog is ball obsessed. But that does not mean they are not high drive dogs. As a community we just tend default to high ball drive as high drive. 

An inability to settle, an unending NEED for constant stimulation is not drive. But it confused for it a lot. 

I have shared my home with many dogs of varying drive levels and type. It's about figuring out what satisfies the dogs drive, what ever it may be, and using that to teach the behaviors you want. 

To bring out the best in each dog means understanding what drives the dog. And using that as a reward. 


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Lucy Dog said:


> A well rounded dog should have both. Drive (the willingness and motivation to go) and energy (the stamina to keep going). Excitability is fine too as long as it's not out of control and too much for the dog to not be able to focus. Nerve keeps everything in check.


This makes a great deal of sense.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

gsdsar said:


> I think we also need to define "drive". Too often I hear "my dog is high drive" and it's true, but it's too general. There are plenty of TYPES of drive. Ball/prey/play are just one if them. Some dogs have a very high pack drive. They work for the owner not the toy. Some dogs have a high hunt drive, they work for the joy of searching. Some have a high food drive.
> 
> Not every dog is ball obsessed. But that does not mean they are not high drive dogs. As a community we just tend default to high ball drive as high drive.
> 
> ...


Skadi has a high hunt drive because she loves to hunt for her hidden toys in the house... Thank you, this is great information!


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

gsdsar said:


> I think we also need to define "drive". Too often I hear "my dog is high drive" and it's true, but it's too general. There are plenty of TYPES of drive. Ball/prey/play are just one if them. Some dogs have a very high pack drive. They work for the owner not the toy. Some dogs have a high hunt drive, they work for the joy of searching. Some have a high food drive.
> 
> Not every dog is ball obsessed. But that does not mean they are not high drive dogs. As a community we just tend default to high ball drive as high drive.
> 
> ...


Definitely very good information.. I often wonder if Titan has a mixture of a few.. but my goodness what that dog won't do for the game of fetch..


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Skadi is also insane for a ball  Grim has high food and pack drives, and he's ball silly, but he also already at nine months old settles very well in the house. I wonder if the czech in Skadi's bloodline gives her the "edge" she has.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

glowingtoadfly said:


> Skadi is also insane for a ball  Grim has high food and pack drives, and he's ball silly, but he also already at nine months old settles very well in the house. I wonder if the czech in Skadi's bloodline gives her the "edge" she has.



I think, especially when "new" to understanding lines in the GSD, that we tend to oversimplify based on lines. My boy, DDR/Czech, 14 mo old, has a perfect off switch. We just did 20 minutes of obedience outside. Now he is sleeping. 

Don't get too caught up in "lines" , they can give you a general idea, but they don't speak to an individual dog. Every dog, no matter their lineage, is an individual. It's hard to justify a blanket statement about an entire "line". Not all Czech dogs are sharp and intense, not all WGWL are ball crazy, not all ASL are lazy and driveless. Look at the dog as an individual, don't look with glasses pointed to lineage. You will do a huge disservice to your dog. 


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## Shaolin (Jun 16, 2012)

I learned when I discovered there was no end to his ball drive. One day, we just kept playing and playing. We're talking hard core running and fetching. He wasn't tired but I was. I realized we had been playing for over three hours and he wasn't tired. Once we did SAR and he would be the dog that searched the longest and hardest, It kinda solidified the high drive thing. 

I love it, personally. A dog with high drive has been so much fun. Sometimes it's rough, but usually it just leads to fun and adventure. 

I will say from the time he turned one until when he turned 2 was the hardest. There was no amount of exercise that could quell his drive. He was also in his butthead stage, so it was worse. Once the off switch developed, It was like night and day. 

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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Look online for the Volhard test - they're old school but they're excellent for understanding drive. 

I knew the day I picked Otto out at 5 weeks old. He was one of 2 boys the breeder thought I'd want and the other one tried to eat my son's shoe. Little tests like crumple up a paper (he was curious), threw it, he was on it, brought it back -prey drive. Played with him a minute wrestling my hand and rolled him onto his back, he didn't stop biting me. There were a couple other things, I don't remember, it was some stuff cobbled together from puppy aptitude tests. Wanted a drivey dog who was courageous and independent. What I got.

For all his go, Otto got his sire's AMAZING off switch - he's always been good in the house. 4 or 5 months old out of the crate for hours when I wasn't home, did nothing. We met his father, Xander, who came out drive drive drive so she could show me what he could do. Then my daughter needed to use the bathroom, we went inside, Xander went right to his spot and laid there observing my sons - who were 3 and 5 at the time, busy little people. SchH2 dog with high drive, just chilling out and he stayed there for the hour we sat inside so his owner could show me pictures.

Venus I tend to see as medium drive, yet her pack drive is very high, ball is good for her but probably because Otto loves ball and I want her to play. She's a great OB dog because she's so loyal to the pack. Not so bold or independent as Otto is. She had brutal seperation anxiety for a long time. At 14 months, she's finally getting it that I'm coming back...


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

gsdsar said:


> I think, especially when "new" to understanding lines in the GSD, that we tend to oversimplify based on lines. My boy, DDR/Czech, 14 mo old, has a perfect off switch. We just did 20 minutes of obedience outside. Now he is sleeping.
> 
> Don't get too caught up in "lines" , they can give you a general idea, but they don't speak to an individual dog. Every dog, no matter their lineage, is an individual. It's hard to justify a blanket statement about an entire "line". Not all Czech dogs are sharp and intense, not all WGWL are ball crazy, not all ASL are lazy and driveless. Look at the dog as an individual, don't look with glasses pointed to lineage. You will do a huge disservice to your dog.
> 
> ...


 I agree in principle not to stereotype based on lineage, and I try not to, but Skadi is sharp and intense. So she does fit the stereotype. I am so glad that she is developing an off switch...


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Shaolin said:


> I learned when I discovered there was no end to his ball drive. One day, we just kept playing and playing. We're talking hard core running and fetching. He wasn't tired but I was. I realized we had been playing for over three hours and he wasn't tired. Once we did SAR and he would be the dog that searched the longest and hardest, It kinda solidified the high drive thing.
> 
> I love it, personally. A dog with high drive has been so much fun. Sometimes it's rough, but usually it just leads to fun and adventure.
> 
> ...


How old was he when his off switch started to develop?


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

SunCzarina said:


> Look online for the Volhard test - they're old school but they're excellent for understanding drive.
> 
> I knew the day I picked Otto out at 5 weeks old. He was one of 2 boys the breeder thought I'd want and the other one tried to eat my son's shoe. Little tests like crumple up a paper (he was curious), threw it, he was on it, brought it back -prey drive. Played with him a minute wrestling my hand and rolled him onto his back, he didn't stop biting me. There were a couple other things, I don't remember, it was some stuff cobbled together from puppy aptitude tests. Wanted a drivey dog who was courageous and independent. What I got.
> 
> ...


I will check that out. Skadi can be out of her crate at home alone for hours and she's fine. It's when we are here that she sometimes, not always, can be a handful with trying to destroy or chew things because she wants to play.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Otto had it in for a victorian seatee with fraying upholstery. It taunted him every time he walked by it but other than that, he never touched anything after he was told not to.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

We didn't have her from a puppy, we brought her home with some bad habits already installed...


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Anyone have any videos to help change from words to visuals? Always help to separate subjective from objective.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

I will try to get some videos that can be youtubed


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

glowingtoadfly said:


> I know they aren't the same, Hunter. I just wonder if a dog can have a lot of all three.


Easily. My female is extremely all three. So is her mother.

The ideal is extreme drive, without the extreme excitability, and enough energy to get the job done, IMO.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Packen said:


> Anyone have any videos to help change from words to visuals? Always help to separate subjective from objective.


Ask and you shall receive. From Saturday, quickly edited just for you. Not her best show of aggression but it will do for the demonstration at hand.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Any secondary OB, retrieves, send-out, tracking? Always good to see others training.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Packen said:


> Any secondary OB, retrieves, send-out, tracking? Always good to see others training.


Not from this weekend. Just did some b&h, some environmental exposure, and some suitework. Welcome to see that.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Any w-end ok, just want to see heeling under helper distraction, send outs etc, no bites just control work.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)




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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Packen said:


> Any w-end ok, just want to see heeling under helper distraction, send outs etc, no bites just control work.


I'm posting old videos but here's some heeling under distraction






I have some send out videos but can't find them. Ill take one tomorrow. We have a nice true blind sendout with both dogs.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Pretty cool but the dog does not out on command and has to be dragged off, same in heeling under distraction with the dragging on line. Control is hard but doable.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Packen said:


> Pretty cool but the dog does not out on command and has to be dragged off, same in heeling under distraction with the dragging on line. Control is hard but doable.


In which video? In what part? Where was there dragging?


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

I thought the videos showed a very impressive amount of work, I'm not a correction trainer, but I can respect the amount of effort put into that.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

First one, will dog out and heel without pulling off physically?


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Same with last, lots of corrections/holding line, which is ok for a beginning dog but she is a 3 right?


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Packen said:


> First one, will dog out and heel without pulling off physically?


The suitwork? I just grabbed his harness for the helper's safety and peace of mind. I don't do much sport with him, I do very civil, very real work with that dog, and as he is a very powerful dog helpers who work him appreciate it when you make it clear you won't allow them to be harmed in training. If you watch it again, you can see when we walk away when I let go, he very obviously walks away "with" me, not "for me". Watch it and read the dog. The out was clear, clean, and perfect... had I not grabbed the harness nothing would have been different.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Packen said:


> Same with last, lots of corrections/holding line, which is ok for a beginning dog but she is a 3 right?


Holding the line yes, theres only a few corrections in that video. In that particular video we were working higher aggression and control. Once again, I hold the line for the helpers safety. I am a decoy so that resonates with me. If you were a full time decoy you'd understand.

She is an IPO2 dog. And an extremely nice one at that.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

She is beautiful!


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Cool dogs, I'd work on control but that is a personal thing. Helper seems pretty much in control, can use the opportunity for training more control and leave the physical pulling off and line dragging behind.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Packen said:


> Cool dogs, I'd work on control but that is a personal thing. Helper seems pretty much in control, can use the opportunity for training more control and leave the physical pulling off and line dragging behind.


Thanks. Its all a matter of training goals. The control is fully there, its just not "IPO pretty" (more so with my bitch though). I could send the male on a helper *after* the helper has seriously pissed him off, and call him off within 5 feet, its just not as flashy as I'd imagine you'd prefer... but its functional and proofed, which is my primary goal. He's a dog that can stay crystal clear when the helper is trying to choke him out or hit him hard enough in the fight to make him bleed. I know what the dog is, and a pretty heel isn't a battle I wish to fight or believe need to as his heel is functional as is. That and *knowing* the dog will bite "for real", and fight "for real". Any sport is secondary for me in terms of training goals with either dog. Most IPO judges are horrified by my male anyway lol. Sport folks I think just aren't used to that kinda dog.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

glowingtoadfly said:


> She is beautiful!


Talking about my black female? Thanks


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

hunterisgreat said:


> Thanks. Its all a matter of training goals. The control is fully there, its just not "IPO pretty" (more so with my bitch though). I could send the male on a helper *after* the helper has seriously pissed him off, and call him off within 5 feet, its just not as flashy as I'd imagine you'd prefer... but its functional and proofed, which is my primary goal. He's a dog that can stay crystal clear when the helper is trying to choke him out or hit him hard enough in the fight to make him bleed. I know what the dog is, and a pretty heel isn't a battle I wish to fight or believe need to as his heel is functional as is. That and *knowing* the dog will bite "for real", and fight "for real". Any sport is secondary for me in terms of training goals with either dog. Most IPO judges are horrified by my male anyway lol. Sport folks I think just aren't used to that kinda dog.


Always depends on what the goals are. I am not talking about flashy, that is beyond you or I  but more proofed without needing helping hands at OB commands.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Packen said:


> Always depends on what the goals are. I am not talking about flashy, that is beyond you or I  but more proofed without needing helping hands at OB commands.


As I said above, it wasn't helping hands, it was safety first. 

Geez someone wanted to see a clean out on the suit from Jäger so I obliged, now its "you grabbed the harness". If I do suit work and its not pouring rain I'll record the "proofed behavior" for you tomorrow


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Cool, will check for more tomorrow.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Packen said:


> Anyone have any videos to help change from words to visuals? Always help to separate subjective from objective.



Not sure exactly what you're looking for, but here is my Fiance and our dog Heidi. 

Kiersten and Heidi 8-8-13 - YouTube

Heidi Protection 4-20-13 - YouTube


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

mycobraracr said:


> Not sure exactly what you're looking for, but here is my Fiance and our dog Heidi.
> 
> Kiersten and Heidi 8-8-13 - YouTube
> 
> Heidi Protection 4-20-13 - YouTube


Excellent, keep em coming! This will be the first thread where verbal descriptions transform into visual effects. Here is one of my dogs,
Gnash SchH2 Protection - YouTube


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

glowingtoadfly said:


> I wonder if it is common for high drive dogs with a slight hyper edge to have trouble settling as teenagers and puppies?



These are all very different things that are often mistaken to be the same. I worked a WGSL last weekend that IMO was a neurotic mess. I backed off and was trying to calm the dog on the bite and just get it to settle and think. It's a young dog 15 months or so. I was told "not to kill it's drive". I was doing nothing more then trying to put it in a clear state of mind. The dog was so frantic it didn't really understand what it was doing. This was a perfect example that people can't always tell the difference between drive and neurotic behaviors. Then of course if you tell someone their dog is neurotic, you're the jerk that's just never seen a high drive dog before.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

hunterisgreat said:


> As I said above, it wasn't helping hands, it was safety first.
> 
> Geez someone wanted to see a clean out on the suit from Jäger so I obliged, now its "you grabbed the harness". If I do suit work and its not pouring rain I'll record the "proofed behavior" for you tomorrow


Interesting that you offer criticism on videos posted by others, but yet you aren't keen on criticism of your own videos...

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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> Interesting that you offer criticism on videos posted by others, but yet you aren't keen on criticism of your own videos...
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Me? I wouldn't have posted anything if I didn't want criticism. Please, give me what advice you've got on my videos!

Did you feel my comments on your video was criticism? I didn't intend or feel as though my response was negative or unconstructive... Some was just me asking questions... First thing I said to you was you OB was much nicer than mine lol


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

mycobraracr said:


> These are all very different things that are often mistaken to be the same. I worked a WGSL last weekend that IMO was a neurotic mess. I backed off and was trying to calm the dog on the bite and just get it to settle and think. It's a young dog 15 months or so. I was told "not to kill it's drive". I was doing nothing more then trying to put it in a clear state of mind. The dog was so frantic it didn't really understand what it was doing. This was a perfect example that people can't always tell the difference between drive and neurotic behaviors. Then of course if you tell someone their dog is neurotic, you're the jerk that's just never seen a high drive dog before.


I'll post some video of my girl in drive soon


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## njk (Jan 11, 2014)

The fact that she never gives me a break lol constantly bringing her ball to me to play fetch. For every half hour of fetch, she sleeps for about a half hour. I actually enjoy going to work because I get a break! I do have to get up extra early though and walk and play with her for at least an hour and a half to ensure she doesn't go stir crazy in the house while I'm gone. She has a lot of toys to entertain herself with thankfully, though our house is completely bare of any decorative pieces (she isn't crate trained and has free reign of the kitchen and lounge when alone (a baby gate blocks her from the other half of the house)). When I get home though, most of the afternoon and evening are spent with her working off her energy. Our breeder chose her for us, and I do think she was bad fit as she was the opposite of what we said we were after, but we have adjusted to meet her needs (well, I have.. my partner is still trying lol).


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

njk said:


> The fact that she never gives me a break lol constantly bringing her ball to me to play fetch. For every half hour of fetch, she sleeps for about a half hour. I actually enjoy going to work because I get a break! I do have to get up extra early though and walk and play with her for at least an hour and a half to ensure she doesn't go stir crazy in the house while I'm gone. She has a lot of toys to entertain herself with thankfully, though our house is completely bare of any decorative pieces (she isn't crate trained and has free reign of the kitchen and lounge when alone (a baby gate blocks her from the other half of the house)). When I get home though, most of the afternoon and evening are spent with her working off her energy. Our breeder chose her for us, and I do think she was bad fit as she was the opposite of what we said we were after, but we have adjusted to meet her needs (well, I have.. my partner is still trying lol).


That sounds like Skadi as a teen... How old is she?


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## njk (Jan 11, 2014)

glowingtoadfly said:


> That sounds like Skadi as a teen... How old is she?


She's 5 months old. I was saying to my partner last night that maybe as she gets older she'll have less energy, and he just laughed at me lol


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

This is how I know my dog is high drive.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Oooh.. I'm gonna tell Kiersten you called her a dog.. 

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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Can someone please explain which drive they believe "fetch" fits into?? I knew plenty of dogs, labs, mutts, golden retrievers, GSDs, etc…that loved tennis balls and could play fetch until they passed out. When we are talking about "Drive," what drive are you speaking of when you say, "my dog is high drive because he is obsessed with playing fetch with his tennis ball/frisbee/stick, etc" or "my dog has high drive because he's always go go go"..what drive does that fit into? 

Plenty of the labs that were washed from my dad's hunting buddies programs could chase tennis balls and sticks until the end of time…but they were washed, the tennis ball was where it ended. So I'd assume, just because a dog loves a tennis ball, doesn't mean they have high prey drive, or any drive for that matter…except maybe tennis ball drive? Maybe "play drive"?? Still, I considered "play drive' interacting/playing with the handler. Imho, fetch isn't really handler interactive.

When we are specifically talking about "drive" in the GSD…do we consider a dog that loves tennis balls…a "high drive" GSD?? Or for the "go go go" GSD…what makes that "high drive?" What category does the "go go go" fit into? Fight, prey, defense, food, pack, hunt etc…To me "go go go" isn't a "drive" it's energy. 

Am I correct in thinking "go go go" CAN absolutely have higher drives, but also "go go go" can be low in all the drives I listed? I think higher drive dogs, tend to have more energy than lower drive dogs, but I don't believe more energy equals high drive (in any of the categories). To me if someone in sport or working dog world says they have a "high drive dog" (since it doesn't specify any drive), means the dog is high in all the drives…not just because it loves a tennis ball or toy or is "go go go."

I also think someone should define a "neurotic dog" in regards to drive. Is it a particular drive without thinking? A Drive without a switch? Nothing to do with drive? What is everyone's definition of a "neurotic dog?"


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

DaniFani said:


> Can someone please explain which drive they believe "fetch" fits into?? I knew plenty of dogs, labs, mutts, golden retrievers, GSDs, etc…that loved tennis balls and could play fetch until they passed out. When we are talking about "Drive," what drive are you speaking of when you say, "my dog is high drive because he is obsessed with playing fetch with his tennis ball/frisbee/stick, etc" or "my dog has high drive because he's always go go go"..what drive does that fit into?
> 
> Plenty of the labs that were washed from my dad's hunting buddies programs could chase tennis balls and sticks until the end of time…but they were washed, the tennis ball was where it ended. So I'd assume, just because a dog loves a tennis ball, doesn't mean they have high prey drive, or any drive for that matter…except maybe tennis ball drive? Maybe "play drive"?? Still, I considered "play drive' interacting/playing with the handler. Imho, fetch isn't really handler interactive.
> 
> ...



To me neurotic dog is a frantic dog. I will go with no off switch, but that isn't the only indicator. It's really hard to explain, especially to those who have not seen. Video is the best indicator then we can describe behaviors. Unfortunately, I can see that going down hill fast since a lot can't tell the difference.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

mycobraracr said:


> These are all very different things that are often mistaken to be the same. I worked a WGSL last weekend that IMO was a neurotic mess. I backed off and was trying to calm the dog on the bite and just get it to settle and think. It's a young dog 15 months or so. I was told "not to kill it's drive". I was doing nothing more then trying to put it in a clear state of mind. The dog was so frantic it didn't really understand what it was doing. This was a perfect example that people can't always tell the difference between drive and neurotic behaviors. Then of course if you tell someone their dog is neurotic, you're the jerk that's just never seen a high drive dog before.


Was it frantic because it was neurotic or was it one of those cases where the handler blasted it with an e collar for outs or something like that and had it freaking out because it wasn't sure when the next one was coming?


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## sechattin (Nov 13, 2013)

This is really my first experience even worrying about drive, and this thread has been very interesting to read. I've never known anything about drive before, and assumed that a high drive dog was one that just didn't stop whether it was inside or out. Kaiju settles very well in the house, but when I say it's time to go, to him it's time to GO! Especially if we're doing something very engaging like agility practice, his energy is explosive and does not stop until I bring him back home and have him settle. I always figured he was very low drive because he can be an absolute couch potato at the house, but after reading this thread, he sounds much more like the medium to high drive dogs that simply have an off switch. It's definitely convenient that he's ready for anything I throw at him, whether it's six minutes or six hours of work. I get a lot of opportunities for exciting activities without worrying about him going neurotic on days when we can't do much.


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## vprasad (May 17, 2013)

Oh man! I had to learn about my boy's drive the hard way... I mean he loves to fetch, but not always. But his defense drive is high. I kid you not. He doesn't let ANYTHING come into my yard. Anything. Literally. Here's how I learned about his drive, this happened a few months ago: 

I usually let him out at around 10pm for his potty break. This day I let him out and he bolts, almost like a rocket taking off, to the shed we have at the corner of our yard. I hear a few growls and a few hisses. I immediately call him back (all this is happening in real time) and when he is back I see that his mouth is all bloody. Seriously, he was out there for a few seconds... I check him to see if he is alright and I realize that it was the blood of an other animal. At this point I was scared about my neighbors cat. He doesn't like cats. Really he doesn't. So I get get my flash light and walk over there to see what the **** happened and I find a raccoon all bloody and trying to hop over my fence.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

I'm not really sure what high drive is?? I mean I have an idea in my head... And I don't think just because a dog will play fetch all day it means it's high drive either..


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Drive state can switch up depending on what the motivation is. My dog is fairly high drive, though balanced....but it kicks up bigtime during protection. 
Now that he's mature, he is more self controlled. Had I put a ton of compulsion on him to gain that control, I'd have a dog that did the routine but not with the power and enthusiasm that he does it now. 
He doesn't have that same level of drive when it comes to tracking because the motivation to track for articles isn't very valuable. I bet if we man tracked or did trailing style, he would be more enthused.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Could always give him bites at the end


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=em-upload_owner&v=x3dLk-TIEmw
Skadi settled in the house!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Baillif said:


> Could always give him bites at the end


Yep! When we track w/ club...but when I'm on my own, I have to change up the rewards, and sometimes he still wants to keep on tracking. He is a work in progress on the track.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Skadi wanting to play ball... Now that I have this youtube idea figured out, I will take some training video tonight when my husband works with her.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Baillif said:


> Was it frantic because it was neurotic or was it one of those cases where the handler blasted it with an e collar for outs or something like that and had it freaking out because it wasn't sure when the next one was coming?



Nope, the dog was frantic because it's neurotic. I wish I could post the video because it really would describe a lot but I don't want to put someone else's dog out like that. If I can, I'll try and PM it to you later. 



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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

K id be really interested in seeing it. Did you ever get him to calm down or did the handler stop you?


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Not a training video yet because we had a few bloopers... Ball went over the fence and got into a pile of poop, husband was distracted by broken glass in the backyard (we live in the city). Here is a video of my two playing chase for your amusement. Hopefully soon we can get fewer bloopers, although I'm sure they would have been entertaining as a series...http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=em-upload_owner&v=KVZ-hQY8TCQ


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

G-burg said:


> I'm not really sure what high drive is?? I mean I have an idea in my head... And I don't think just because a dog will play fetch all day it means it's high drive either..


I would love to hear more opinions as well.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Lucy Dog said:


> Now today for example. It's been raining and I've been working on and off all day, so we haven't had a chance to do anything. I've paid next to no attention to him today. He's been laying around and chewing on his toys all day. No whining, no destroying anything, not getting his energy out for him to settle. He's sleeping at my feet right now as I type this. That's his off switch. It just comes natural to him.


So today, I did a test, and just relaxed all day, and trained a little, let the dogs out to play once in awhile. Both were able to settle in the house without a problem, though first thing in the morning Grim, the eight month old, kept bringing me junk mail to trade for treats and tried to eat a pillow, after breakfast he settled down and napped. I have noticed that before they have eaten, they are both more frantic with trying to destroy things because they both know that I will get them a treat if they get into something they shouldn't have. Maybe they are both hungry earlier and need a snack and are frantically trying to get treats out of me!


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

My dog is medium drive. Most people who dont know working dogs would assume she is high drive. You wouldnt know that unless you have been around a varied selection of working dogs that where being worked. Both in protection and control.

Im sure if I let her play with tennis balls and toys all day like many do she would carry them in her mouth non stop and be "possesive" of them. Doesnt mean to much.

Plenty of vids on my youtube channel some of which have been posted.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

The helper told us that Skadi doesn't have crazy drive, that he has seen higher drive dogs than her. Maybe I will ask him his opinion.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

glowingtoadfly said:


> So today, I did a test, and just relaxed all day, and trained a little, let the dogs out to play once in awhile. Both were able to settle in the house without a problem, though first thing in the morning Grim, the eight month old, kept bringing me junk mail to trade for treats and tried to eat a pillow, after breakfast he settled down and napped. I have noticed that before they have eaten, they are both more frantic with trying to destroy things because they both know that I will get them a treat if they get into something they shouldn't have. Maybe they are both hungry earlier and need a snack and are frantically trying to get treats out of me!


Mine get antsy when it's meal time too. I try to feed them at different times, so their internal clocks don't always go off at the same time and they start bugging me to feed them. As soon as they get their meal, they typically settle fairly quickly.



glowingtoadfly said:


> The helper told us that Skadi doesn't have crazy drive, that he has seen higher drive dogs than her. Maybe I will ask him his opinion.


I'd be willing to guess most of the dogs owned by people on this site, especially the ones in pet homes, are not high drive dogs. A dog with drive doesn't mean the dog is high drive.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> I'd be willing to guess most of the dogs owned by people on this site, especially the ones in pet homes, are not high drive dogs. A dog with drive doesn't mean the dog is high drive.


:thumbup:


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Lucy Dog said:


> I'd be willing to guess most of the dogs owned by people on this site, especially the ones in pet homes, are not high drive dogs. A dog with drive doesn't mean the dog is high drive.


"Very fun, drivey little girl, ball crazy" was her description by the breeder, and a friend of mine who has known her since she was a pup, who does schutzhund and is a teacher at the local GSD club, (martemchik on here) said she "has drive pouring out of every hole in her body" lol It's true, she is crazy fun to train and very enthusiastic. I'm going to ask the helper for a third opinion.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=em-upload_owner&v=xdGgKV6Secw
Here is a video of my husband training Skadi with a ball.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Andrew training Skadi with a tug, sorry for poor quality


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Medium drive, add some pressure to the training and you will know for sure.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Thanks!


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Shaolin said:


> I learned when I discovered there was no end to his ball drive. One day, we just kept playing and playing. We're talking hard core running and fetching. He wasn't tired but I was. I realized we had been playing for over three hours and he wasn't tired. Once we did SAR and he would be the dog that searched the longest and hardest, It kinda solidified the high drive thing.
> 
> I love it, personally. A dog with high drive has been so much fun. Sometimes it's rough, but usually it just leads to fun and adventure.
> 
> ...


Yes, we are definitely seeing an off switch develop. She's at her second birthday and is currently relaxing. She was quite the butthead too between her first and second birthday. I think I'm going to throw an off switch party.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> Drive state can switch up depending on what the motivation is. My dog is fairly high drive, though balanced....but it kicks up bigtime during protection.
> Now that he's mature, he is more self controlled. Had I put a ton of compulsion on him to gain that control, I'd have a dog that did the routine but not with the power and enthusiasm that he does it now.
> He doesn't have that same level of drive when it comes to tracking because the motivation to track for articles isn't very valuable. I bet if we man tracked or did trailing style, he would be more enthused.


This is part of the reason we are trying to steer clear of compulsion. We are just letting them mature. Skadi is also getting better self control as she ages, as was evidenced by her new ability to play tug without mouthing and to be able to stop to be given commands.


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