# European Working and show lines?



## Shepherdscove (Oct 14, 2012)

What are your opinions on breeding a european working/show line? Would that be against a dog in a sieger show or a breed survey if they have enough drive to do schutzhund?


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

It wouldn't be a problem in the breed survey if the dog was correct in conformation and work.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I think crossing Work/Show is a total crap shoot....very very experienced breeders (usually in Europe) will do these and keep breeding stock from the litter in order to bring some thing into their programs (more the work people than the show people!!!)....in order for those crosses to be used for breeding they must pass the same criteria to koer as each type....as far as showing a cross in the Sieger show.....you probably won't go top 10% or VA, but if the dog is decent, no reason you cannot show....

Lee


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Any time you start mixing lines you're not going to really succeed in doing much. You can get some really good dogs...but you'll never get a dog that can win Sieger and also be a world champion Schutzhund dog. The german show lines have the drive to do schutzhund...just not to the same level as working lines (overall). If you look hard enough I'm sure you can find a very driven show line dog that can easily be trained to SchH3. But once you start mixing in any type of working line...you're not getting VA. You can probably get surveyed very well and get V, but VA would be tough. I also thought that most times the judges pretty much won't give a VA rating unless the parents/grandparents had VA ratings? I mean...I'm sure there are dogs that break through this, but in general its very tough to do due to the politics and all that fun stuff that comes along with showing dogs.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

They won't give VA unless three generations are Koer'd, not VA'd.

In terms of success, it depends on what sports/show venues we're talking about. My first female GSD bred a crossed litter and two of the dogs are top agility dogs and one of those has high titles in several sports.

In general it's nearly impossible to VA a dog. I won't say it's harder to do it with a cross because even having WGSL dogs I have no aspirations of ever campaigning a dog to a VA rating. It's super political and super expensive with even the type-iest WGSL dog.

Now SchH3 and breed survey is most definitely doable with a cross.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

there's lots of SL's that have SchH III titles and Seiger titles 
and you don't have to look hard. 



martemchik said:


> Any time you start mixing lines you're not going to really succeed in doing much. You can get some really good dogs...but you'll never get a dog that can win Sieger and also be a world champion Schutzhund dog. The german show lines have the drive to do schutzhund...just not to the same level as working lines (overall). If you look hard enough I'm sure you can find a very driven show line dog that can easily be trained to SchH3.
> 
> 
> But once you start mixing in any type of working line...you're not getting VA. You can probably get surveyed very well and get V, but VA would be tough. I also thought that most times the judges pretty much won't give a VA rating unless the parents/grandparents had VA ratings? I mean...I'm sure there are dogs that break through this, but in general its very tough to do due to the politics and all that fun stuff that comes along with showing dogs.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Sieger titles??? The Sieger show is the National Championship....anyone can enter any dog in its respective class.....

VA dogs are to cream of the crop.....and yes, it is VERY political....a local show line breeder has had 3 VA dogs....campaigning in Germany as well as here....putting on the Sieger show one year...and it is NOT that easy to find a show line dog that can "easily" be titled to IPO3....it is alot of work both for handler and dog - work or show line...

A 'v' rating is not so easy to get with a working line, and probably with a show x work cross, but most titled dogs will pass a koer.

Lee


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

doggiedad said:


> there's lots of SL's that have SchH III titles and Seiger titles
> and you don't have to look hard.


Yeah...one a year for the last 100 years. There's tons of them out there. I never said it was impossible to find. I'm pretty sure all world Siegers have a SchH3 on them, but if you're comparing their work to a working line its not the same.

Getting a SchH3 with a 270 is different than getting one with a 295. And to add to that you have to have the SchH3 by an early enough age to even compete for a Seiger title. A mix just won't cut it in the show world. I know a few working dogs with V ratings...beautiful working dogs. But if its not red/black and boxy, its not getting a VA rating.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

doggiedad said:


> there's lots of SL's that have SchH III titles and Seiger titles
> and you don't have to look hard.


The question is how many of them earned it and how many bought them. We all know what happens when a dogs is sent to Germany to be "titled"... opcorn:

If you are in Chile you don't have to look hard, anyone knows who it is... there is only one.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

martemchik said:


> Getting a SchH3 with a 270 is different than getting one with a 295. And to add to that you have to have the SchH3 by an early enough age to even compete for a Seiger title. A mix just won't cut it in the show world. I know a few working dogs with V ratings...beautiful working dogs. But if its not red/black and boxy, its not getting a VA rating.


Hey a 270 is still a good score!

There are VA rated dogs that are not SchH3.

What do you mean by "cut it"? If your criteria for being successful as a show dog is a VA rating then I maintain what I said earlier, having a cross is not the problem. You are no more or less likely to get a VA rating with a cross or pure WGSL if you are not prepared to spend tens of thousands of dollars campaigning your dog and know the right people. The reason you don't see crosses as VA rated dogs is not because they are crosses.

I know some very successful work/show line crosses but no they are not VA1 German Siegers, but that's not really how I define show "success".

The VA1 Chinese Siegerin is not black and red.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

LOL LOL most of the trials I have been to that have SL dogs actually trialing - scores are more in the 230 range than the 270....not even all teh WL dogs do a 270 at a club trial....

Unless you have the big bucks to buy a made dog in Germany - a high rated dog as a young dog or a dog in the top 10 Vs - and the money to put it in the right hands....you will not get a VA with the dog here....VA with a work x show cross????? Well go buy lottery tickets if you think you have that much luck!

You can title and show a cross - success should be looked at as getting titled and koered....not the scores or rank.

Lee


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Liesje said:


> Hey a 270 is still a good score!
> 
> There are VA rated dogs that are not SchH3.
> 
> ...


Absolutely a 270 is a good score! But its no 295 lol.

In my opinion if you're looking to cross lines its because you want a successful show dog that can outwork its straight WGSL competitors. I just kind of took it to the extremes...you won't get a World Sieger (even with campaigning and all that) that will also compete at the world Schutzhund championships.

It's funny that even on this forum we have differing opinions of what is show success...and I like the German show system much better than the American...but when we can't agree on what is considered "good" how do we expect judges and people much more involved in the world to agree.

I guess in my opinion there is much more risk to mixing lines than there is reward. I look at it this way...the show people are probably not going to want your puppies because they won't win them shows, and the working people aren't going to want those puppies because they aren't going to be the really drivey, competition dogs they are looking for. And I kind of look at the success of the breeding program on those outliers...the pups that do go on to do something great. It's nice when the program produces good pets for people and dogs that are great representatives of the breed in day to day life, but its those special dogs that are working for police departments/military or winning shows that give a lot of weight to a breeding program.

And there are breeders out there mixing and doing it successfully...those people have decades of knowledge and know what they're mixing, they have goals to do something with the dogs that makes them more breed standard. But I still think there is a lot of risk to doing this.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I'm just trying to understand....because I do participate in SchH (and my WGSL got a 265 and I'm proud of it!) and SV shows very regularly and I might be part of a cross litter in the future so I'm just wondering if you are posting based on experience with these activities in breeding or just a general assumption of risk? I honestly do not see that much crossing going on, but I see plenty of duddy dogs that are "pure" WGSL or WL and have health defects, bad temperaments, etc. Sometimes a breeder is willing to risk doing a pretty major outcross with the understanding that it is somewhat experimental, but that's why we *have* all the "data" we have now about who produces what, because people have done it and tried it and we are lucky to observe and record the results. I'm not going to tell someone to avoid crosses in type because it might not work. You could buy a son of a VA1 dog and it might not be able to walk properly (see other thread).

To me "success" in the SV ring is always receiving the top rating available for the class, beating other dogs, and receiving the top rating available at some larger show (like a NASS or UScA SS).

I do not use extremes to say don't do this or that because you can't be WUSV champion or German Sieger because honestly I don't really like those extremes myself. I have no intention of campaigning a dog to VA1 Sieger so I'm not going to use that as a standard for buying or breeding my dogs.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Shepherdscove said:


> What are your opinions on breeding a european working/show line? Would that be against a dog in a sieger show or a breed survey if they have enough drive to do schutzhund?


I did the helper work for a breed survey Saturday and I assure you he had plenty of drive to do Schutzhund, and do it well.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

THIS is a personal goal of my own.....a WL/SL cross that can do the work...AND...place very well at a Sieger Show.
It was a HUGE accomplishment for us to have bred, trained and handle our own SL dog to a VA title......no money, no politics....and *yes*..._very hard._

I have *planned* this cross for over 3 years now....and I have great expectations on the outcome.....only time will tell.
JMO


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

robinhuerta said:


> THIS is a personal goal of my own.....a WL/SL cross that can do the work...AND...place very well at a Sieger Show.
> It was a HUGE accomplishment for us to have bred, trained and handle our own SL dog to a VA title......no money, no politics....and *yes*..._very hard._
> 
> I have *planned* this cross for over 3 years now....and I have great expectations on the outcome.....only time will tell.
> JMO


Sounds like a very interesting litter.


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