# Submissive peeing or worse?



## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

Since Fritz has been with us at 8 weeks old he has submissive peed and excitement peed. Now at 8 months his peeing has gotten worse and he cowers and runs to his crate. A couple of weeks ago he was laying in the kitchen when a friend arrived and he jumped up and ran at him barking. I grabbed him with an emphatic no and commanded him to lay. He peed all over the rug. That night I brought him out to pee his last time and after that I asked him to sit and for a paw and he peed on my hand. The next day I caught him peeing on the lawn (trained not to) and I yelled no and ran at him because he wasn't stopping and he ran,cowered,and hid. Now he cowers from both my wife and I and pees if we try to give him affection. It's as if he's terrified of us. Help!!


----------



## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

lrodptl said:


> Since Fritz has been with us at 8 weeks old he has submissive peed and excitement peed. Now at 8 months his peeing has gotten worse and he cowers and runs to his crate. A couple of weeks ago he was laying in the kitchen when a friend arrived and he jumped up and ran at him barking. *I grabbed him with an emphatic no and commanded him to lay.* He peed all over the rug. That night I brought him out to pee his last time and after that I asked him to sit and for a paw and he peed on my hand. *The next day I caught him peeing on the lawn (trained not to) and I yelled no and ran at him because he wasn't stopping and he ran,cowered,and hid.* Now he cowers from both my wife and I and pees if we try to give him affection. It's as if he's terrified of us. Help!!


Your tone and the way you run at him is probably freaking him out. You might be too rough on him. You dont need to yell and be forceful to make your dog do things. A dog that pees and acts like that IMO is a dog that is afraid of his owners and lacks confidence. Poor guy 

My friend did that to their dog and now all he is is a big scardy cat and acts as if he was abused


----------



## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

LaRen616 said:


> Your tone and the way you run at him is probably freaking him out. You might be too rough on him. You dont need to yell and be forceful to make your dog do things. A dog that pees and acts like that IMO is a dog that is afraid of his owners and lacks confidence. Poor guy
> 
> My friend did that to their dog and now all he is is a big scardy cat and acts as if he was abused


He's acting terrified but my wife has never corrected him and neither has the neighbor who he peed in front of when he was asked for his paw. BTW,the dog was ran towards once by me,not regularly and is now basically uncorrectable. Looking for solutions.


----------



## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

lrodptl said:


> The next day I caught him *peeing on the lawn* (trained not to) and I yelled no and ran at him because he wasn't stopping and he ran,cowered,and hid. Now he cowers from both my wife and I and pees if we try to give him affection. It's as if he's terrified of us. Help!!


Why isn't he allowed to pee on the lawn?
Where would you like for him to pee?


----------



## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

LaRen616 said:


> Why isn't he allowed to pee on the lawn?
> Where would you like for him to pee?


He is trained to pee on the yard perimeter just like the adult GSD but sometimes gets lazy. He can't pee on the lawn because I don't want him to pee on the lawn. If this is all you have please move on,really,I'm looking for solutions. Do you have any professional or personal experience?


----------



## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

lrodptl said:


> He's acting terrified but my wife has never corrected him and neither has the neighbor who he peed in front of when he was asked for his paw. Looking for solutions.


If you change your tone and give him lots of positive feedback his attitude could change. I am trying to help. When he does something wrong do not yell at him, correct him in another manner. An example: your dog is getting too rough with you, like biting, try to give him a toy to bite instead, if that doesn't work you can ignore him and not play with him, if that doesn't work you can put him in his crate for a time out. Even though they make us angry and frustrated we should not raise our voices at them or be forceful.


----------



## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

I think, first, stop all the "no"s and yelling at him. If Frtiz is this way right now, I would put all the obedience stuff to the side and just work on bonding and building his confidence via lots of interactive games like tugging and fetching (if he will bring the ball back). I know you walk Fritz a lot. My advice is to cut back on the miles and miles of walking and just play games with him for awhile.

Also if you know he is uncomfortable with strangers, then if possible I would remove him from any situation where you think he is going to act badly. Put him in the crate or outside. Anytime a dog is uncomfortable about something, you have to approach very slowly and gradually, inch by inch. Some people advocate "flooding" the dog and basically asking him to "get over it" or use the occasion to "teach" the dog to behave. I don't agree with that at all.


----------



## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

LaRen616 said:


> If you change your tone and give him lots of positive feedback his attitude could change. I am trying to help. When he does something wrong do not yell at him, correct him in another manner. An example: your dog is getting too rough with you, like biting, try to give him a toy to bite instead, if that doesn't work you can ignore him and not play with him, if that doesn't work you can put him in his crate for a time out. Even though they make us angry and frustrated we should not raise our voices at them or be forceful.


This is my 5th GSD and the first one to ever react this way to normal correction-pretty pathetic. I've contacted a local trainer who evaluated the pup 3 months ago.


----------



## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I think you'll have to completely change your approach and interacitons with Fritz to build his confidence back up. Since he has been submissive and shy from the time he was a puppy, he very much needs gentle, patient direction and management to do well, and no corrections. To me, this is a dog that is confused and terriefied, and does not understand why you are acting the way you are - somewhere there has been a huge breakdown in communications, which is only confusing Fritz more, and making you more frustrated.

Fritz is Fritz, and his temperament and basic personality will not change. However, you have unlimited potential to change in a way that will build your relationship back up. 

From now on, nothing you do is negative, harsh or loud. Assume that what you _think_ he knows, he does not know, so getting angry at him for certain behaviours is a waste of time and energy. Re-teach him with treats and positives. 

Avoid direct eye contact. Be a walking treat dispenser. Throw treats as you walk by him, without looking at him. Do this until he starts coming up to you and your wife expecting treats. 

Manage his environment so that he does not have the opportunity to do things you do not want him to do - so you don't have to correct him. Supervise so you can _show_ him, calmly and gently what you want. Don't assume that he knows - he is showing behaviours that indicate that he has no idea what is expected from him, and thus is living in constant fear of being corrected for . . . what? He is confused . . . 

Start with small expectations, easy goals, in your mind, Fritz can do no wrong. If you approach it this way, Fritz will pick up on your new attitude and it will help re-build his confidence.


----------



## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

Jason L said:


> I think, first, stop all the "no"s and yelling at him. If Frtiz is this way right now, I would put all the obedience stuff to the side and just work on bonding and building his confidence via lots of interactive games like tugging and fetching (if he will bring the ball back). I know you walk Fritz a lot. My advice is to cut back on the miles and miles of walking and just play games with him for awhile.
> 
> Also if you know he is uncomfortable with strangers, then if possible I would remove him from any situation where you think he is going to act badly. Put him in the crate or outside. Anytime a dog is uncomfortable about something, you have to approach very slowly and gradually, inch by inch. Some people advocate "flooding" the dog and basically asking him to "get over it" or use the occasion to "teach" the dog to behave. I don't agree with that at all.


We cut way back on the walking and ball play as he hurt his shoulder running down a hill. We now have him doing shorter walks and swimming daily. We play swim/fetch and tug of war (which I was against) and I always let him win. He's fine when distracted by play but one on one affection time,he's pathetically timid now. He showed up a submissive peer and it got better but 2 corrections and he's a mess.


----------



## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

Castlemaid said:


> I think you'll have to completely change your approach and interacitons with Fritz to build his confidence back up. Since he has been submissive and shy from the time he was a puppy, he very much needs gentle, patient direction and management to do well, and no corrections. To me, this is a dog that is confused and terriefied, and does not understand why you are acting the way you are - somewhere there has been a huge breakdown in communications, which is only confusing Fritz more, and making you more frustrated.
> 
> Fritz is Fritz, and his temperament and basic personality will not change. However, you have unlimited potential to change in a way that will build your relationship back up.
> 
> ...


This dog has been kid gloved and 2 corrections have turned this 85 pound 8 month old into mush. Never seen anything like it.


----------



## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

I totally agree with Lucia. Fritz is Fritz and you have to work with the pup you have in front of you. It's pretty obvious he is a very sensitive dog and that's how you need to approach things ... for example, if you are going to correct him for something down the line, just keep in mind a soft "no" or a disapproving stare might just be enough for young Fritz so no need to raise your voice or even physically correct him.

Every dog is different. Some are hard and dense (and training those dogs is no picnic either) and some are soft and sensitive. There is nothing inherently good or bad about either. But they do require different tactics and approaches.


----------



## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

Follow Castlemaid's advice. You have a very submissive dog. You should not be correcting it for anything, but encouraging desired behavior. I have a 4 month old, a 3 year old and a 5 year old and I can't think of a reason why I would need to give them a correction. They are all happy to adjust to my "game". If I am training and they do the wrong thing, I just say, "let's try it again". When they don't receive their praise, they know they didn't do it right.


----------



## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

It sounds like you have a soft dog. Some dogs are WAY more sensitive to their people than others. 

Your best bet is to rework the way you interact with him. Lots of positive teaching behaviors to rebuild your bond and create trust (think clicker and treats- the sound of the clicker is non-emotional and I would recommend becoming non-emotional in everything you do with this pup for awhile). I would work on non-rewards and ignoring as your primary methods of corrections. No yelling, No grabbing. Your dog can't take it.


----------



## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

It's obvious this dog can't take correction but in the case of lunging at a guest right out of the blue which started this mess I can't see an option. He's got to know that's unwanted behavior and not something I could have ignored. It appears I've covered the spectrum in temperament now as my first GSD was extremely confident and aggressive,followed by 3 very stable GSDs and now Fritz.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I know this is your 5th GSD but obviously, as you stated, it's your first one that is this submissive. We have a Boxer like this. Nothing we did made her this way but all that we did reinforced her submissiveness. When we didn't understand why she was hiding under the table and told her "It's ok." thus reinforcing that cowering under the table for no reason was a good thing. When she was doing something she wasn't supposed to and we hollered across the house 'No!" it sent her running to hide under the table. It quickly turns into a vicious cycle.

Everything you can do with a confident dog is a huge No No with a submissive dog.

If I were you, I would go find a trainer that has alot of knowledge with submissive dogs and building confidence. Everything has to be soft, low key. He's not pathetic, he just is what he is.

Play games with him. IT will reinforce your relationship and his confidence. They don;t have to be rough and tumble games. It could be hide and seek in the house. When he is healed, take him to agility to build his confidence.

And in the end...if you feel that this is not something you can handle then rehome him to a quiet home. Not a pleasant notion but sometimes it's best for everyone.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I missed the part where he lunged at the guest. Did he do this out of fear? He is about that age. 

And I don't disagree that it unacceptable. You just need to find a different way to handle it. Maybe put him on a leash when company is over until he settles down. That works for our oldest Boxer.


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

lrodptl said:


> It's obvious this dog can't take correction but in the case of lunging at a guest right out of the blue which started this mess I can't see an option. He's got to know that's unwanted behavior and not something I could have ignored. It appears I've covered the spectrum in temperament now as my first GSD was extremely confident and aggressive,followed by 3 very stable GSDs and now Fritz.


How well socialized is he?

How many hundreds of people has he met?

How many dog classes has he attended?

How many friends/family do you have over every week?

I raised 3 dogs before I got my current Miss Glory B who is also an excitement/submissive pee'er. But I learned early on that 



> If you change your tone and give him lots of positive feedback his attitude could change. I am trying to help. When he does something wrong do not yell at him, correct him in another manner. An example: your dog is getting too rough with you, like biting, try to give him a toy to bite instead, if that doesn't work you can ignore him and not play with him, if that doesn't work you can put him in his crate for a time out. Even though they make us angry and frustrated we should not raise our voices at them or be forceful.


would ONLY make things worse.

Instead I had to become a better trainer and dog leader in my home. I had to use my brain to figure out a calm and quiet way to get the same behavior I wanted. 

Because Glory can be 'soft' I made sure to do anything I could to expose her to the world in a great way (continuously) so she learned it was instead a wonderful place full of wonderful people so she could prance out into it with her head held high and with confidence. 

I didn't avoid anything that would put her off, instead I knew my job was to use my big brain to figure out how to make it wonderful. Treats. Toys. tugging. Happy and confident ME makes a happy and confident puppy.

Have you been doing this (tons new smells and sights):





 
And this (new place/people/smells/dogs):





 
New people, new dogs, new place





 
What have you done to get your puppy to be happier, have more confidence, know you are a reliable leader in any situation, willing to meet any new situation?





 
This problem cannot be 'corrected' out of our dogs. And it's not an 'obedience' issue. So if it's only addressed as such it will get worse not better.

BTW, my Glory B is 14 months old and no longer has the issue any more. So this way does work.


----------



## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> How well socialized is he?
> 
> How many hundreds of people has he met?
> 
> ...


If there are more socialized dogs than mine I have not met them,with people and dogs. 

I recognize that "correction" triggers the problem.

We are lucky to be surrounded by forests, conservation lands,lakes.ponds,cranberry bogs and the ocean of which he visits 2-3 times daily.

He has tremendous ball drive and will ignore everything else if a ball/stick is in play.

We have an appointment with a trainer who evaluated him 8 weeks ago.


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> If there are more socialized dogs than mine I have not met them,with people and dogs.


I bet mine are....but that doesn't mean you haven't worked with your dogs some too.


----------



## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> I bet mine are....but that doesn't mean you haven't worked with your dogs some too.


He walks with 5-10 dogs every morning 9-10:30 rain or shine with me or my wife at one local meadow/bog. The walk is all off leash with the owners and the dogs play,walk,swim etc. no problems with Fritz. We have never missed one single day. This has been routine since he was 12 weeks old. There is another group walk at 1PM which we attend sometimes but that's 5-10 dogs and 5-15 people he's socializing with every day. He's over the top excited when we arrive but quickly settles into the routine. We've walked him at airports,train stations,city roads,malls etc and he will calm down.He's very easily startled during quiet times at home or in the yard and always has been. He has charged me,my wife and my daughters,barking with hair raised at different times,when coming home and he's in the yard,very unsettling.


----------



## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

Is this the same dog you recently put an e-collar on?


----------



## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

Lin said:


> Is this the same dog you recently put an e-collar on?


Never had an E-collar though one was recommended by the trainer.


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> He's very easily startled during quiet times at home or in the yard and always has been. He has charged me,my wife and my daughters,barking with hair raised at different times,when coming home and he's in the yard,very unsettling.He's very easily startled during quiet times at home or in the yard and always has been. He has charged me,my wife and my daughters,barking with hair raised at different times,when coming home and he's in the yard,very unsettling.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There is something else going on here if he's not a calm and confident dog with all that socialization. He have any health issues? 

HAve you tried any purely positive based training like tracking? or agility? or herding?


----------



## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

lrodptl said:


> Never had an E-collar though one was recommended by the trainer.


Ah sorry I got you confused with another member with a similar user name and dog about the same age.


----------



## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> There is something else going on here if he's not a calm and confident dog with all that socialization. He have any health issues?
> 
> HAve you tried any purely positive based training like tracking? or agility? or herding?


This pup charged my neighbor at 10 weeks old and has done the machine gun barking from the beginning. His charging and barking has diminished but he continues to bark at people when driving or if they approach us when he isn't aware unless,there is something to distract him,like a ball then he couldn't care less about anything else. He can't be trusted as this recent episode proved and he cannot handle firm verbal correction which has brought me to this point. He has no health issues,loves to play with other dogs,loves running and swimming,is a ravenous eater but unstable at this point. He does not react poorly to leash correction,only verbal or physical (grabbed the collar)There does not seem to be any of those training types near me.

I have an appointment here. I've seen his dogs and they are remarkably trained and he provides lifetime weekend socialization on his property.

http://www.completek-9.com/


----------



## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

He definitely sounds like a very insecure and fearful dog. There have been many great suggestions for you in this thread.


----------



## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

Every dog is different, every owner is different. We obviously can't tell due to the medium but I bet you if we met you in person, we'll be able to tell that you have a physical structure, body language and motions, eye language and voice that is dominant and perhaps abrupt and rough, even without you being aware of it. Your previous GSDs were able to handle that but this one is having a problem because he is obviously sharp, shy and submissive. That means he can still be a great dog if you are aware of his limitations and how "you look" to him. With this dog everything needs to be calm, slow and predictable.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree with alot of the assessments you've gotten and especially Ocean's above.

I have a submissive aussie, when I got her, I had always had gsd's, that were confident and secure, could take a correction when needed, and move on. My aussie was much softer than what I was used to and a harsh voice, a hard correction would turn her into a marshmellow.

I had to learn to adjust my methods with her, everything positive, when she did something "wrong",,(altho she never ever charged people), the 'correction' had to be based on her soft temperament..

She's not an unstable dog, she is just very 'soft', 

As with all dogs being different, training methods and daily living, has to be adjusted to the specific dog.

I hope the trainer/beahviorist you use will help guide you into how to deal with Fritz.


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Ocean said:


> Every dog is different, every owner is different. We obviously can't tell due to the medium but I bet you if we met you in person, we'll be able to tell that you have a physical structure, body language and motions, eye language and voice that is dominant and perhaps abrupt and rough, even without you being aware of it. Your previous GSDs were able to handle that but this one is having a problem because he is obviously sharp, shy and submissive. That means he can still be a great dog if you are aware of his limitations and how "you look" to him. With this dog everything needs to be calm, slow and predictable.


I also agree with that. Any training that is correction based or more traditional 'obedience' may cause more problems.

I'm still recommending any POSITIVE based training that is more about using our dogs innate skills so they can learn how smart they are and get confidence to replace their fearful reactions. Herding, tracking and agility would really benefit.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I agree with the three above posts. I hope the trainer that you are going to will recognize what has been assessed by Ocean, MRL and Diane. 
If this trainer uses corrections on your boy, it may be very detrimental.
Confidence building is most important over anything else at this time.


----------



## valreegrl (Nov 11, 2009)

Wow! All great advise from everyone  

I just have something to add that may be of help.....

If you have a full length mirror, I suggest you and/or wife (if he has this issue with her also) stand in front of it and go through the motions of your normal correction/praise given to the dog. Notice you facial expressions/movements. Do you step towards the dog when making a correction/praise? Is your expression tense? 
We sometimes forget how dogs read out body language. It isn't what comes out of our mouth in words that is most important, it is how we act. You could be saying "Oh good boy, nice boy" and still have a tense posture. Just stepping or even leaning towards your dog can give him the feeling of unease. 
It can be a fine line here, but seeing it for yourself in the mirror could be enlightening. 

Body language is key. For example....your dog is sitting in front of you. If you turn your body and walk away, your dog will follow. If you take a couple steps towards your dog he will move away from you. This is just natural body language. 

But, sometimes we convey something completely different with our body then what our mouth is saying, without knowing.


----------



## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

great post valreegrl!


----------



## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

It's obvious to me that I have exacerbated this problem by running at him when he would not stop peeing on the grass. What if he suddenly runs at someone barking again? What if I look out on the deck (mahogany) and he's chewing on a step? What if I see him peeing on the grass? What if.....


----------



## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

lrodptl said:


> It's obvious to me that I have exacerbated this problem by running at him when he would not stop peeing on the grass. What if he suddenly runs at someone barking again? What if I look out on the deck (mahogany) and he's chewing on a step? What if I see him peeing on the grass? What if.....


It's going to be management for awhile until you can trust him. You have to monitor the situations he has access to. 

If he runs barking at someone, he needs to be on a leash so he can be stopped and redirected. If he's chewing on a step, he probably shouldn't be out there unsupervised, but you can walk out there, clip a leash to him, give him a firm unemotional No and give him an alternative. If you don't want him peeing on the grass, he needs to be on a leash or taken to a confined area where he can relieve himself. 

He's not very old. He's still very much a puppy and needs to be treated as such. Truly, any training you've done probably isn't proofed at this point.


----------



## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Think ahead on how you will deal with different issues and situations in a way that will not be negative and confrontational to Fritz. Be proactive and manage his environment in a way where he does not have the chance to make mistakes, so you don't have to correct him. Don't want him to chew on the deck? Don't leave him out there unsupervised, ect . . . 

I agree that there may be more issues with Fritz then just being insecure - the charging at people is not normal. But it could be re-directed frustration and fear - he may be building tension from the different corrections and the confusion of not really understanding what is expected of him, but is too afraid of you to act out, so he redirects towards a safer target. 

Also, with him acting so much more confident when running in a pack - often insecure dogs will feel more confident in the company of other dogs, especially if the other dogs are more grounded and secure - their confidence gives him confidence. That is normal, and does not always carry over to more confidence in regards to people or other environments where his doggy friends are not present.


----------



## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

Castlemaid said:


> Think ahead on how you will deal with different issues and situations in a way that will not be negative and confrontational to Fritz. Be proactive and manage his environment in a way where he does not have the chance to make mistakes, so you don't have to correct him. Don't want him to chew on the deck? Don't leave him out there unsupervised, ect . . .
> 
> I agree that there may be more issues with Fritz then just being insecure - the charging at people is not normal. But it could be re-directed frustration and fear - he may be building tension from the different corrections and the confusion of not really understanding what is expected of him, but is too afraid of you to act out, so he redirects towards a safer target.
> 
> Also, with him acting so much more confident when running in a pack - often insecure dogs will feel more confident in the company of other dogs, especially if the other dogs are more grounded and secure - their confidence gives him confidence. That is normal, and does not always carry over to more confidence in regards to people or other environments where his doggy friends are not present.


He's very gregarious and playfully aggressive and confident with other dogs. Every 5 minutes or so he will run to me for a touch or a check in but it's kind of sad to see him happy to see me but retreat to his crate. He's got some complicated emotions with confidence,insecurity,fear,enthusiasm,excitability all evident.


----------



## gen1runner (Nov 2, 2009)

I have a pretty submissive 9 month old female GSD and she has just recently started to break the submissive peeing. Her confidence has went up ten fold since Ive been doing alot of agility and exercising with her. I tend to raise my voice very easily and it comes off intimidating(being in the military will do that...lol) to her. I too dont like my pup peeing in the front yard so as soon as I see her attempt, instead of yelling I do the "ack,ack...lets go" in a stern but excited tone and I jog to where she is supposed to go. More time than not she reacts and will run over to me and go where Im standing. If I yell she usually will stop in her tracks and just go. I know when Im getting to my pup her whole demeanor changes eyes get big,ears go back etc. She was really bad from month 3-7 but she has gradually grown out of it as I adjusted my methods of correction. You just gotta figure out what works between you two and go with it. Not an individuals advice is any better or worse than the next but they just may not work with your pup. In the end you have to figure it out, see what buttons need to be pushed to get him to do what you want. He will come around, mine did and I thought for sure she was gonna be an unconfident dog. She has definatly proved me wrong.


----------



## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

gen1runner said:


> I have a pretty submissive 9 month old female GSD and she has just recently started to break the submissive peeing. Her confidence has went up ten fold since Ive been doing alot of agility and exercising with her. I tend to raise my voice very easily and it comes off intimidating(being in the military will do that...lol) to her. I too dont like my pup peeing in the front yard so as soon as I see her attempt, instead of yelling I do the "ack,ack...lets go" in a stern but excited tone and I jog to where she is supposed to go. More time than not she reacts and will run over to me and go where Im standing. If I yell she usually will stop in her tracks and just go. I know when Im getting to my pup her whole demeanor changes eyes get big,ears go back etc. She was really bad from month 3-7 but she has gradually grown out of it as I adjusted my methods of correction. You just gotta figure out what works between you two and go with it. Not an individuals advice is any better or worse than the next but they just may not work with your pup. In the end you have to figure it out, see what buttons need to be pushed to get him to do what you want. He will come around, mine did and I thought for sure she was gonna be an unconfident dog. She has definatly proved me wrong.


Exactly what mine did during the pee thing,froze until I ran right to him and he bolted and cowered,and when I retreated he went to the correct area. I am also an aggressive personality but I have handled this pup with much more gentility of all things. I also just found out that my wife has put him in an Alpha roll at times when he was excitedly flipping out as other dogs approached. I did not know that but that will be stopped. Guess we weren't on the same page as this is the first of our dogs that she has been very actively involved. Just scheduled to begin training with someone very experienced with submissive dogs but he does use the E-collar so I'm moving cautiously.


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

It's REALLY a different way we have to train and behave around dogs like these. Great that you are getting so many great suggestions. And can see you are NOT alone.

The best thing about this is it makes us WAY better dog owners and trainers because we have to be smarter and have a plan. ALong with if our plan doesn't work, come up with a new plan! Way easier to yell quickly at a dog and they stop something, shrug it off, and never do it again..... (this was my yellow Lab, so easy to raise and train!).

You need to use any training that sets her up to succeed and do the right thing. Cause that's what gives them confidence and makes a more secure dog.

Being proactive and managing situation before they start is also key and something mentioned earlier. It's amazing how when I think, my dog always freaks when they see the mailman, if I don't take my dog out when the mail is expected my dog doesn't freak! Problem solved while dealing with the other training issues until I can deal with the mailman...


----------



## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> You need to use any training that sets her up to succeed and do the right thing. Cause that's what gives them confidence and makes a more secure dog.


This is very important. You don't want to allow Fritz to even get into a situation where you have to correct him. 

Tessa is very handler soft. She fear peed when I adopted her and it took a long time to build her confidence up. Then when I adopted Logan he was a very hard dog and I would have to raise my voice and lower the tone to even get him to notice me, and Tessa would cower at it. That was definitely a challenge trying to keep Logan in line without freaking out Tessa when they were together.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I just wanted to add, I think its GREAT that Fritz has alot of social doggie play time, and I would continue with that as well


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

I have a 2 1/4 yo male GSD that I kind of wish sometimes would show a little submission behavior - he is the only GSD out of 7 that we have had over the last 40 years who does not show any submission even if we yell at him! Most confident dog i have ever seen! Friendly and obedient and extremely smart but no submission (even tho he does listen very well!) Interesting dog to live with and to train.


----------



## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

codmaster said:


> I have a 2 1/4 yo male GSD that I kind of wish sometimes would show a little submission behavior - he is the only GSD out of 7 that we have had over the last 40 years who does not show any submission even if we yell at him! Most confident dog i have ever seen! Friendly and obedient and extremely smart but no submission (even tho he does listen very well!) Interesting dog to live with and to train.


Our adult GSD would just look at me after any correction as if to say "OK when are we going for a walk"? He just moves on. We call him "Shaeffer 2 times",because on first command he ignores and on second he complies-every time.


----------



## valreegrl (Nov 11, 2009)

In my opinion, I think positive training is key with this dog. He obviously wants to please as his tenseness comes from punishment (although verbal). 

And you may want to consider "wearing" him for a while. That way he can't get into "trouble" because nothing is accessible without your permission. 
In "wearing" I mean put him on a flat collar/leash and tie it around your waist. Do not let him roam freely at all. If you cannot wear him he should be crated. And then start as if he was a new puppy. As you walk, say "With me" in a happy voice and when he follows give him huge praises. "Good boy! What a great boy you are!" Ask for sits and downs when you stop and continue your praise. Take him to the spot outside where he should relieve himself and when he does lots and lots of praise. 
Invite safe people over and have someone else answer the door with lots of positive movements. No hesitation and great happy voices. Maybe toss him a treat or two from the visitor all the while you are positively reinforcing the calm behavior. Allow the dog to determine when he thinks it is appropriate to approach. Don't let your visitors to pet him without his approval. Don't force affection from strangers. 

All the above will build him up. But it will also not allow a situation to happen where he needs to be "reprimanded". You may have to continue this for a while, but I assure you a different dog will emerge from this training. 

I think I would also be a little leery of using an e-collar on a dog that is this soft. Just my opinion on that one.

Sorry, just wanted to add.....no loud voices and sudden movements around him for a while. What he needs most is a confidence boost. Everything he does should be a big deal. It may be silly treating/praising for sits when he has known the command for a while, but it really isn't the action you are praising as much as it's the demeanor, calm/confident.


----------



## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

valreegrl said:


> In my opinion, I think positive training is key with this dog. He obviously wants to please as his tenseness comes from punishment (although verbal).
> 
> And you may want to consider "wearing" him for a while. That way he can't get into "trouble" because nothing is accessible without your permission.
> In "wearing" I mean put him on a flat collar/leash and tie it around your waist. Do not let him roam freely at all. If you cannot wear him he should be crated. And then start as if he was a new puppy. As you walk, say "With me" in a happy voice and when he follows give him huge praises. "Good boy! What a great boy you are!" Ask for sits and downs when you stop and continue your praise. Take him to the spot outside where he should relieve himself and when he does lots and lots of praise.
> ...


Very frustrating right now,pees when you ask him to sit,pees when you ask for a paw,pees when you approach him to pet him if he's lying down. Severe thunder and lightning right now but he doesn't seem fazed so his issues are with people I guess,excitement,fear and submission all rolled up in one big psychological mess. Not the dog I envisioned and struggling to maintain perspective and understanding. Pull out a ball and he forgets everything ,sucks.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

What do you mean "Pull out a ball and he forgets everything"

Does that mean he forgets to be scared and doesn't pee? If so, I would use that as a training tool to get him past this. Throw the ball, give a paw, throw the ball, sit, throw the ball.


----------



## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> What do you mean "Pull out a ball and he forgets everything"
> 
> Does that mean he forgets to be scared and doesn't pee? If so, I would use that as a training tool to get him past this. Throw the ball, give a paw, throw the ball, sit, throw the ball.


That's what I mean,ears up,tail wagging,eyes excited. Cowers when I ask for the paw and he goes to a lay. To complicate matters he started limping after he went barreling down a hill after the ball so the ball play has to be in the water and today it's thunder and lightning.


----------



## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

Anyone think I should eliminate the crate as he likes to seek refuge there? We've been open crating for a month now.


----------



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

you could be to rough on your dog. he might not
need screaming and yelling at. he might respond to
a less "than normal correction". did you every think
maybe your training mehtod is "pathethic".

since your dog is so nervous i think you should
build his confidence. being loud with him and grabbing him
isn't the way to help him build his confidence.

set up a training and socializing schedule. train and socialize everyday,
several times a day. start working with a trainer. do you
need a behavorist?



lrodptl said:


> This is my 5th GSD and the first one to ever react this way to normal correction-pretty pathetic. I've contacted a local trainer who evaluated the pup 3 months ago.


----------



## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

No. Dogs need that safe place they go to. I think your challenge is finding out a way to make him want to stay out there with you. 

Have you tried clicker training and using hand signals? It would seem like a good option for you for a few reasons. First, the marker is a unique sound and when paired with food, is good for rewarding and marking without using the human voice as much. Second, hand signals are picked up easier by dogs than vocal commands and you keep saying when you give him a command he urinates. So this would be a different approach, and a great way to keep thing positive and upbeat, like a game almost.


----------



## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

GSDSunshine said:


> No. Dogs need that safe place they go to. I think your challenge is finding out a way to make him want to stay out there with you.
> 
> Have you tried clicker training and using hand signals? It would seem like a good option for you for a few reasons. First, the marker is a unique sound and when paired with food, is good for rewarding and marking without using the human voice as much. Second, hand signals are picked up easier by dogs than vocal commands and you keep saying when you give him a command he urinates. So this would be a different approach, and a great way to keep thing positive and upbeat, like a game almost.


He's hand signal trained but the "paw" is really a trigger for some reason.


----------



## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

doggiedad said:


> you could be to rough on your dog. he might not
> need screaming and yelling at. he might respond to
> a less "than normal correction". did you every think
> maybe your training mehtod is "pathethic".
> ...


You should really read the whole thread,and check your spelling.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

lrodptl said:


> That's what I mean,ears up,tail wagging,eyes excited. Cowers when I ask for the paw and he goes to a lay. To complicate matters he started limping after he went barreling down a hill after the ball so the ball play has to be in the water and today it's thunder and lightning.


ok...so what about a ball with a rope? Will he play tug? Can you play ball in an enclosed space where he wouldn't be able to get up to full speed to re-injure? A quiet place like your basement? Or a fenced in space that is fairly small?

I take a frisbee and place it behind my back when I'm working with Jax. She does not get the frisbee until she has done a certain amount. My voice if very excited (because I want to ramp her up). If you could do something similar with Fritz, so giving his paw is really really fun and he gets his favorite reward, that might be a starting point.

I really like the clicker training idea because you don't speak to him. It might help you pinpoint the exact trigger that is setting him off.


----------



## Bill H. (Apr 30, 2010)

I didn't notice if you said whether or not he's been to the vet lately. We have a dog that was doing fine with her house training, but backslid and started peeing in the crate at night. Turns out she had a bladder infection.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

You said he was evaluated by a trainer at approx 3 months. What did he say??? I would first find out if this is more genetic or environmental. An experienced trainer can usually make that assessment. Many pups will pee like that from excitement or fear or weak nerves at 2 to 4 months. Usually if it is excitement it ceases as they hit 4 months or so...whereas a dog with weak nerves or peeing out of genetic fear will often continue this behavoir. The source of the behavoir is important in your approach to the behavoir . You have had some good tips given so far...if the behavoir is result of environment it probably can be reversed....it is genetic it will be maybe managable but more likely a lifelong issue.


----------



## valreegrl (Nov 11, 2009)

Just a question.....when you "correct" him do your hands move? For example....you are running towards him....are you waving your hands around?

After reading your other answers, I wonder if it's your hands that are scaring him along with your tone. Like I said before, our body movements make up a big part of how a dog views us, and most times we don't realize what we look like when we are reacting. 

How about using the ball as a training aide, since he enjoys that the most, and begin training commands with a calm voice. For example, keep your one hand behind your back and the other hand holding the ball. Ask for a "sit", not "SIT" but "sit". Calm, low voice. Once he gives you the behavior, reward with the ball. Take a couple minutes just playing ball even. Then bring him back to you and start with something else. 
You may have to keep your hands behind your back, or at least at your sides for a while. That may be triggering him. 

Calm, quiet, no quick body movements (even arms/feet/hands) and start building him up. Make a huge deal over everything. You may not want to do this with lots of verbal praise, but with the ball. Use it as reward, and never play with it unless he gave you a asked behavior. 

The clicker is a great tool also. Look into it. You can incorporate it with the ball by keeping it in the hand behind your back. Plus, it will give that hand something to do meaning you are less likely to unknowingly move it around. 

I really hope something will help with him. I hear your frustration in your answers. Just remember, everything takes time and lots of effort. It isn't going to change overnight. You have to set those feeling aside though when working with him. They have such a keen sense.


----------



## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> ok...so what about a ball with a rope? Will he play tug? Can you play ball in an enclosed space where he wouldn't be able to get up to full speed to re-injure? A quiet place like your basement? Or a fenced in space that is fairly small?
> 
> I take a frisbee and place it behind my back when I'm working with Jax. She does not get the frisbee until she has done a certain amount. My voice if very excited (because I want to ramp her up). If you could do something similar with Fritz, so giving his paw is really really fun and he gets his favorite reward, that might be a starting point.
> 
> I really like the clicker training idea because you don't speak to him. It might help you pinpoint the exact trigger that is setting him off.


He loves tug and we do play this,one thing I have noticed is that he will pee if I approach him and attempt to pet him while he's laying down. I just read that's common in submissive dogs so no more of that. I'm gonna have to watch everything. There's a lot of yelling in a house with 9 and 10 year olds challenging everything and I'm noticing he doesn't like it.


----------



## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

valreegrl said:


> Just a question.....when you "correct" him do your hands move? For example....you are running towards him....are you waving your hands around?
> 
> After reading your other answers, I wonder if it's your hands that are scaring him along with your tone. Like I said before, our body movements make up a big part of how a dog views us, and most times we don't realize what we look like when we are reacting.
> 
> ...


I need to clear this up,this dog has gotten very very few verbal corrections and probably my timing was late even then. The correction that has noticeably set him back was the collar grab and down after he charged a guest that startled him. I must have scared the **** out of him. The following day I ran at him saying No when he refused to stop peeing and when I got close he bolted and I chased him and cornered him before backing off. I did stare him down til he turned away. My entire approach will now change and I will tone everything down. I start with a trainer on Monday so I have to follow what he says so we're on the same page. He does deal with submission issues and offers lifetime weekend socialization,so that's a pretty solid promise.

Yes I am frustrated because I've never had a dog like this out of 7 (5 GSDs) and because we waited for this pup from this breeder for 2 years because our present GSD is so stable. Add in the little frustration of his left ear won't go up and I think I'm angry and he may sense it. I have some acceptance and learning to do.


----------



## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

Bill H. said:


> I didn't notice if you said whether or not he's been to the vet lately. We have a dog that was doing fine with her house training, but backslid and started peeing in the crate at night. Turns out she had a bladder infection.


No accident issues at all when he's alone.


----------



## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> You said he was evaluated by a trainer at approx 3 months. What did he say??? I would first find out if this is more genetic or environmental. An experienced trainer can usually make that assessment. Many pups will pee like that from excitement or fear or weak nerves at 2 to 4 months. Usually if it is excitement it ceases as they hit 4 months or so...whereas a dog with weak nerves or peeing out of genetic fear will often continue this behavoir. The source of the behavoir is important in your approach to the behavoir . You have had some good tips given so far...if the behavoir is result of environment it probably can be reversed....it is genetic it will be maybe managable but more likely a lifelong issue.


The trainer I will see Monday evaluated him at 5 months. The dog showed up with what I thought was excitement urination issues but this trainer back 3 months ago said it was both excitement and submission. It had gotten somewhat better but he overreacts to stimuli and has charged me and my family at night til he realizes who it is. I would say he's pretty complex,bold and aggressive,happy and driven,athletic and powerful and very excitable,tail always,always wagging,seeks out affection but head down,running through your legs peeing or laying on the kitchen floor peeing when you crouch down.


----------



## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

> I would say he's pretty complex,bold and aggressive,happy and driven,athletic and powerful and very excitable,tail always,always wagging,seeks out affection but head down,running through your legs peeing or laying on the kitchen floor peeing *when you crouch down*.


I really hope your trainer can offer you some help, once you have a plan I know it will change you outlook on things. 

I bolded the above words because I think this part is something you can easily work on. It seems like you approaching him is very threatening. Since he seems to be very submissive and very soft, it could have been just one event that made him fear your appoach (like going and grabbing the collar). I think it would help him as seeing you as a source for everything good. Basically start by just walking by and tossing a treat, no eye contact or command, just a treat tossed and maybe a soft good boy. Eventually work it up to approaching him but not tossing a treat, say good boy and then walk away (still no direct contact). Next Approach him, but stop a couple feet away and kneel down. Stay there for a while and treat and praise. Still don't reach out to touch him or anything. eventually he will begin to see you approaching as a great thing and will eventually will look forward to you approaching him, even if you don't have treats.

Another thing that I think would help is the touch command. Sit on the floor and have him nose your hand, it can even be on the floor. Once he touches praise and treat. Then repeat and as he goes to touch, say touch....


----------



## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

GSDSunshine said:


> I really hope your trainer can offer you some help, once you have a plan I know it will change you outlook on things.
> 
> I bolded the above words because I think this part is something you can easily work on. It seems like you approaching him is very threatening. Since he seems to be very submissive and very soft, it could have been just one event that made him fear your appoach (like going and grabbing the collar). I think it would help him as seeing you as a source for everything good. Basically start by just walking by and tossing a treat, no eye contact or command, just a treat tossed and maybe a soft good boy. Eventually work it up to approaching him but not tossing a treat, say good boy and then walk away (still no direct contact). Next Approach him, but stop a couple feet away and kneel down. Stay there for a while and treat and praise. Still don't reach out to touch him or anything. eventually he will begin to see you approaching as a great thing and will eventually will look forward to you approaching him, even if you don't have treats.
> 
> Another thing that I think would help is the touch command. Sit on the floor and have him nose your hand, it can even be on the floor. Once he touches praise and treat. Then repeat and as he goes to touch, say touch....


It's awful to think he fears my approach. I will certainly alter it. He knows the touch command but I only have used it when off leash walking and he always complies. Thanks,I value the help a lot.


----------



## valreegrl (Nov 11, 2009)

lrodptl said:


> It's awful to think he fears my approach. I will certainly alter it. He knows the touch command but I only have used it when off leash walking and he always complies. Thanks,I value the help a lot.


Don't get too down on yourself. Things happen....but just know that you can change most behaviors with a little work.

I once shut Timber's tail in the door. For a while, every time I would walk him through that door he would bolt out. I just took my time and worked him through that and eventually he realized that it wasn't going to happen again. Plus, I am more aware of where his tail is now  

But, he doesn't resent me for it, and neither will your boy. Dogs are resilient. They don't think about the "past". For them, every day is a new day. Think positively, work with the trainer and take the comments made here and devise a plan. I commend you for reaching out and wanting to make things better.


----------



## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

valreegrl said:


> Don't get too down on yourself. Things happen....but just know that you can change most behaviors with a little work.
> 
> I once shut Timber's tail in the door. For a while, every time I would walk him through that door he would bolt out. I just took my time and worked him through that and eventually he realized that it wasn't going to happen again. Plus, I am more aware of where his tail is now
> 
> But, he doesn't resent me for it, and neither will your boy. Dogs are resilient. They don't think about the "past". For them, every day is a new day. Think positively, work with the trainer and take the comments made here and devise a plan. I commend you for reaching out and wanting to make things better.


No episodes yesterday at all,it's not easy being this calm and nice. Four 9 and 10 year old girls here all day which is pretty standard and did notice whenever someone raised their voice,he would retreat to his crate


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> *No episodes yesterday at all,it's not easy being this calm and nice.* Four 9 and 10 year old girls here all day which is pretty standard and did notice whenever someone raised their voice,he would retreat to his crate


GOOD FOR YOU! :thumbup:

For now being more aware of what's going on, how you can make it better and what's currently affecting him the most. 

The calmer and more controlled you are, the more he will learn to stick around to look to you, watch you, and cue for you if things really ARE overwhelming or not. And that it's YOU he can go to for reassurance instead of having to leave the situation entirely. 

When this starts to progress, just being able to see you and your calm will help him. 

Best thing of all, you will be becoming a much better dog owner/trainer because you'll be able to read him as he's also reading you. Our loud and obvious stuff all our dogs get, it's the subtle stuff he's going to learn from you when you start using subtle!

Great book to read is The Dog Listener by Jan Fennell dog behaviour, dog obedience, dog trainers, puppy training, dog rescue assistance, canine behaviour, canine obedience by Jan Fennell the Dog Listener Amichien Bonding it's on Amazon.com

Other way I really learned to watch my dog's quiet behaviors and head off problems early is an excellent DVD called Calming Signals, she has a ton of GSD's as examples so you can really recognize in your dog what she's trying to show we 'stupid humans'  Amazon.com: Calming Signals: What Your Dog Tells You: Turid Rugaas: Movies & TV


----------



## valreegrl (Nov 11, 2009)

lrodptl said:


> No episodes yesterday at all,it's not easy being this calm and nice. Four 9 and 10 year old girls here all day which is pretty standard and did notice whenever someone raised their voice,he would retreat to his crate


Awesome! And I understand how difficult it is.....I have a 4 and 6 year old at home  

Another thing I want to throw out at you.....how about the "watch me" command? Reward him for eye contact. This is a quick lesson and very much rewarding for shy dogs. 

First, start with a treat (something yummy that he cannot resist, like bacon!). If he is still shying away from your hands, you may want to just show the treat and place it on a table next to you but in his vision. If you are not having issues with hands, then you would hold the treat in your hand but with your arm stretched straight out to your side. At this point, he will most likely stare at the treat, maybe whine for it initially. Once he breaks his stare from the treat reward him with it. Even if he doesn't look up at you. Do this three times. Once he has that down, do the same thing however wait for his eyes to move towards your body/face. Very shy dogs will have a hard time with the face, but if he looks at your body, reward for that. Then slowly wait to reward until he looks at your face. Once you get that give it the word "watch me" and jackpot him. Lots of treats/play ball/anything that will get him excited for a job well done. 

What you are doing here is rewarding him for eye contact. He will learn over time that looking at you is a great thing, not something that is to be feared.


----------



## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

Saw the trainer on Monday who does not advocate treat training. He basically trains by depersonalizing and minimizing correction for unwanted behavior so the attention given the dog is discernibly less than the praise reward he gets for wanted behavior without flooding with praise,and confidence boosting exercises. We had one pee episode yesterday when he first saw me in the morning in the kitchen and one last evening when he flipped out upon our return after 2 hours away. One appeared like submission and the other most definitely excitement.


----------



## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

4 weeks in training and the peeing has reduced dramatically. Training with the dogtra for us has been a miracle. Learning the triggers,depersonalizing correction,more physical interaction (actual wrestling with Fritz on the ground),tug of war,focus training,ignoring infractions have all contributed to settling this pup way down. On top of that his left ear finally went up at 9 months old!


----------



## DonP (Apr 13, 2009)

Glad it's going so well. I had a similar problem a few years back. It's hard to fix and it takes time. 
Don


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

lrodptl said:


> 4 weeks in training and the peeing has reduced dramatically. Training with the dogtra for us has been a miracle. Learning the triggers,depersonalizing correction,more physical interaction (actual wrestling with Fritz on the ground),tug of war,focus training,ignoring infractions have all contributed to settling this pup way down. On top of that his left ear finally went up at 9 months old!


Wonderful news, so glad this is working so well for you (great news about the ear too! :wild


----------



## c1chelle (Mar 10, 2010)

We are dealing with similar issues currently. We have two puppies only about a month apart. We treat them the same and only one is a submissive pee-er. It just takes time and consistency. For Karma, the more we correct her, the worse she gets. She peed when the vet reached down to pet her to give her a doggie "cookie". We set the small issues aside for now to deal with what matters most. We don't care where she pee's as long as it is outside. We make sure she goes at least twice before we let her back in. We take her on lots of outings and get as many friendly hands on her as possible. We spend extra time praising her for good behavior & loving on her so she knows there is nothing to be afraid of. Our vet said she is likely to grow put of it. Scolding her is not as effective as a more gentler approach and it all seems to be helping. We have not has an accident in a couple of weeks, but the extra training is not progressing yet either. Hope this helps. Reading all these post has definitely helped me in dealing with my lovable pup. 
~Chelle


----------



## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

DonP said:


> Glad it's going so well. I had a similar problem a few years back. It's hard to fix and it takes time.
> Don


The hardest part for me is ignoring this dog on greetings and approaching him when he's laying around with caution. We've been practicing down/stays on neutral grounds (anywhere outside) with me approaching with praise and retreating over and over. Sometimes he cowers subtly but he's mostly good now. Hopefully we're over the hump,it's been an emotional challenge for me as it's conflicting with my personality to be patient and understanding.


----------



## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

Well the peeing hasn't stopped around me. He can be good and then have major setbacks. If he's in the back of the truck or laying against a wall and I approach,he pees still. If he's in the back of the truck,he hides and if I call him he pees. I can avoid the situations with success but it's getting to the point where I don't love the dog. I went away for a day and yesterday I threw the ball but he wouldn't bring it back and when I called he peed everywhere and it continued today worse than ever. I cannot approach my own dog. The amount of praise and attentiveness to his confidence building I've been giving is off the chart. It's not natural and I never knew of any dog like this,feel like I'm walking on eggshells constantly. He's now 90 pounds and could probably kill me but acts as if he's terrified. What a mess,what an extremely disappointing situation. I fear I'm at my limit,he's nowhere near the type of dog I ever envisioned and I'm seriously considering looking for a new home for him. Very depressing but I think I'm giving up on Fritz.


----------



## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

I'm so sorry you haven't had any progress with your guy. If you do choose to rehome him, he may do better in a female only home.


----------



## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I'm sorry to hear this too. I know that you have put a lot of effort into trying to work with Fritz. If he is that insecure at core, there may not be much more that you can do.

GSDSunshine had a good suggestion. A brand new environment may help Fritz to shed some of his old behaviours.


----------



## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

GSDSunshine said:


> I'm so sorry you haven't had any progress with your guy. If you do choose to rehome him, he may do better in a female only home.


I'm the only male in the house and he's not like that with the wife or girls. I'm the dog lover in this house and I'm the one in which he seems to be living in such insecurity. We just got back from a swim/ball session where he only shows glimpses of fear but is mostly fine,but those glimpses are snapshots of what lies deeper. My heart is truly broken over this. I contacted the breeder (Monks of New Skete) and the brother in charge of training is going to get back to me.


----------



## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

If it helps my lab peed when he was over excited, someone came to the door, or we came home till he was over a year. Not a full on pee mind you but a trail of pee leakage for no reason, and then one day it just stopped. We never corrected him for it because I knew he was just excited, but all the same it was frustrating for me and infuriating for my fiance. It comes down to how you feel about your relationship with him because if you don't like him he already knows and will never get better. It's sad you guys can't bond now, but maybe if you continue your training he will grow out of it. Being patient may not be in your nature, but some dogs need a lot more than others,lol


----------



## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

Zoeys mom said:


> If it helps my lab peed when he was over excited, someone came to the door, or we came home till he was over a year. Not a full on pee mind you but a trail of pee leakage for no reason, and then one day it just stopped. We never corrected him for it because I knew he was just excited, but all the same it was frustrating for me and infuriating for my fiance. It comes down to how you feel about your relationship with him because if you don't like him he already knows and will never get better. It's sad you guys can't bond now, but maybe if you continue your training he will grow out of it. Being patient may not be in your nature, but some dogs need a lot more than others,lol


This is now full blown cowering,submissive or fear urination. If I ask him for his paw,he cowers and pees,ask him for kisses he cowers and pees,If I try any direct interaction that is not ball or food related,he lowers his head,pulls back his ears and may pee. I have walked and played with this dog for 3 hours daily since he arrived at 8 weeks old,never missing a day. I have lain with him when he was very young throughout the night,carried him to his pee area for months every 1-2 hours,fed,trained and corrected ( one correction or mistake by me absolutely exacerbates the problem for days) and played. My wife and kids never correct him and he seems perfectly fine with them.


----------



## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

Well German Shepherd Rescue of New England returned my call and asked. "Are you willing to pass this problem on to someone else"? Kind of opened my eyes a little. They had a trainer call me,but nothing new there. The breeder's (Monks of New Skete) trainer (Brother Christopher) called and spoke to me for about an hour. He is consulting with a trainer he knows and respects (Cavalletto Canine in Dedham,Ma.) and he promises that this problem is fixable and will continue to consult with me til the end,however long it takes.He did offer to take Fritz back for 3-6 weeks for evaluation and training but believes the problem is rooted in Fritz but made much worse by me. He gave me a lot of hope as he said in his 30 years of training he has dealt with severe submission issues many times as has Cavalletto.


----------



## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

I think Fritz can be fixed too- reading his story I want to give him a hug,lol He's quirky, but quirks can be worked out


----------



## nikkiscriv (Feb 10, 2010)

I found this thread when searching for some guidance for some submissiveness Kali seems to be showing lately and am excited to apply some of these techniques with her when I get home. 

lrodptl - Any updates on Fritz?


----------



## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

Have you thought for a moment that this could or somewhat be related to a health issue as well????

Urinary Incontinence


----------



## nikkiscriv (Feb 10, 2010)

Yep, I've definitely thought that and she's been to the vet to rule any medical issues out. I am pretty sure I know what the issue is - mainly that she has been very spoiled and allowed to do pretty much as she pleases because we adore her so much :wub:. But this has backfired on us, because now she becomes insecure when given a command at random inside the house. 

What I mean by that is when I leash her and take her outside to work on heeling or commands, she is very happy to work. She has no aggressiveness and is extremely well socialized with all people, dogs, cats, even small animals such as rabbits (with supervision, of course). 

We had an issue for a couple weeks where she was very pushy at the front door and even bolted out a couple of times when I opened it. So, I started working on a sit and stay on a lead before and while the door was opened and she had to wait for the release word (okay) before she could walk through the door. For the first week or so, any time I would ask her to sit at the door she would get nervous and pee. Again, I think because she was confused/fearful that she was being asked for a behavior she's not used to having to do. However, with repetition she will automatically sit at the door and wait until I tell her it's okay to walk out with me.

However, sometimes if we're just in the house and I ask her for a more advanced command (roll over, bow, etc.) she will do the command but pees as she does it and typically scampers off. She's never had any negative reinforcement, so the only thing I can think of is that she is confused and feels she's in trouble since I'm asking a command of her during her normal "free" time. She also does this with the 'come' command inside the house, which again is an unusual command for her because she's my shadow and very rarely do I need to ask her to come, if that makes sense. 

I was just curious as to the OP's progress on this situation and was happy to read some of the suggestions


----------

