# Am I making things worse or do I persevere?



## Amurphy26 (Jul 22, 2012)

I desperately need some reassurance and advice, sorry this is such a long story). 
I have a 15mth old GSD bitch (not yet spayed) who has been dog reactive since she was about 4 mths old. She had a number of bad experiences with a neighbours dog and on her first walk as a pup she was knocked over by two boisterous labs. The result is that she is seriously dog reactive and cannot cope with eye contact or another dog walking towards her. 
So here comes my main problem, I live in an incredibly rural area and do not have access to trainers or other dogs on a regular basis to help her overcome her fears and reactions. My husband and I travel a lot; camping and family visits) and have always taken our dogs with us (we also have a 10yr old Huntaway) which means every couple of months our GSD comes into contact with other dogs. I've always used these times to gradually get her used to seeing other dogs, where possible keeping her under threshold (using BAT and clicker work) and also meeting up with other dog owners so she can walk with them and she usually eventually plays with them like a typical young dog. 
However, I feel like she's getting worse and over this holiday period I've had no option but to muzzle. If she sees a dog in the distance, she will put her head down and charge at it at full speed. When she reaches it she'll knock it over, bark at it and then come sprinting back to me; up until recently I could stop her charging by using the word she associates with her ball which she is obsessed with but now the need to get to the dog is too much. She now doesn't get off the lead if there are other dogs around.
She has no understanding of how to meet, greet and even play with other dogs in a respectful manner. She's great with my other dog and is fairly submissive to him, we've also dog sat for friends and once she has got to know the dog she is always fine and playful. She loves sharing get toys with dogs she knows.
She's on a good dog food and is great with people and children. She's really obedient and we spend roughly 30 mins a day on mental exercise and about 2 hours on physical. 
Do I persevere or am I making her worse with what I'm doing? Please help!


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Amurphy26 can you do us a favor and go up to the narrow black strip along the top of the forum, click on User CP and put your GENERAL location in? That way you may get specific help from someone in your area.

Good that you have a no 'off' leash policy cause that needs to stay in place for now.

Have you used either a Gentle Leader Head or Harness? Think that would also help 'manage' this better and I'm not really into a muzzle.





 




 
Off hand what she's doing sounds more like it's rude and inappropriate rather then 'aggressive' but all she needs is the other dog to start fighting as a reaction when she's a bit older and there WILL be an actual fight involving blood, vet visits and stitches. So this needs to be stopped and great you are working on it.


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## Amurphy26 (Jul 22, 2012)

Hi, She's walked on a Gencon (like a halti) which makes her easier to control when she's reacting. I'm just not sure if the constant exposure over short periods is helping. She definitely has no idea how to play politely! Some people are saying to just let her off the lead muzzled and let her learn to interact but I feel that is allowing her to misbehave and isn't fair on other dogs. She charges the dogs, barks at them and the dogs either run away or in the case of a few spaniels, end up playing with her. Either way, she wins by exhibiting bad behaviour. 

I'll get my location put on but unfortunately our nearest dog trainer is a ferry trip then another 100 miles away. 

X


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## 3dognite (May 28, 2003)

Having had a dog reactive (I like that term by the way...I'd always used "dog aggressive") dog myself, I really feel for you. I was never able to fully rehabilitate Rebel. He had a couple of very bad experiences with the neighbor dog, who used to come through our sheep fencing into the dog's yard and mark everywhere...Rebel really didn't like him and once escaped accidentally and bit him. After that, he really had trouble with strange dogs.

What I did wrong was that I didn't continue to socialize him with other dogs. I thought that since we had two other dogs of varying sizes, that he would be okay. But I should have taken him everywhere I could, into every situation that I could, and introduced him to every dog possible. It was better when we weren't at our place. I once took him with us when we went hunting (he stayed at the camping area with whoever wasn't out) and introduced him to one brother's yellow labs (2) and the other brother's German Short Hairs (3 or 4) on neutral territory. That went better. I did it with all dogs on lead, treating Rebel when he wasn't fearful/aggressive and correcting him when he was. Ultimately that trip was fine, but I could never fully trust him with strange dogs. And it was sad. I think that part of his problem was me honestly. I was afraid so he was too. I was afraid of what my 100 pound baby would do to those smaller dogs especially.


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## Amurphy26 (Jul 22, 2012)

It is really hard because her bad days are really bad but then she'll have a good day and I start to think there's hope. On Monday she was continually trying to pin my friends submissive Kelpie, she was snarling and being a complete bully. 5 mins later a springer spaniel came charging at her, she reacted by barking and lunging. It ignored her in a typical crazy spaniel way and they ended up having a great time chasing each other along the beach! I just can't work her out. She seems a typical bully. Will take advantage of the weak dogs but is actually terrified when they don't respond how she expects.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

> When she reaches it she'll knock it over, bark at it and then come sprinting back to me


Your young dog is exercising her predatory skills, that is exactly how a wolf would charge a rabbit, rolling him on the ground first. In order to tell her that other dogs and cats cannot be her game, you should provide her with alternative - a good ball, and make her ball mad. Every time she sees a dog - flash her ball for her and start walking away from that dog, she won't run to him, because her instinct would tell her not to leave you and her valuable prey. Your reaction to other dogs is very important, you should show her by using your body language that you, her leader, are not interested in that sort of prey. There is no such thing exists for dogs as a "respectful manner". By playing young socialized dogs polish their predatory skills, they learn methods to fight and about love affairs. The majority of them would start playing rough when older and finally would stop playing at all with other dogs. When your dog is 3 years old, she will prefer you only as a companion for her games.


> She loves sharing get toys with dogs she knows.


No, she doesnt. No dog does. That is only because it wasn't her own beloved toy. She will bite otherwise. She musn't run after toys thrown by somebody else than you - that is a dog ethics. It is always recommended to keep with the group she knows well over years and not to go to unknown dogs.


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## Amurphy26 (Jul 22, 2012)

Hi,
Thanks for the response and I'll take it into consideration. I do the ball thing all ready with some success. It's a brilliant way of getting her attention and I have a trigger word, relating to her ball to stop her in her tracks if she sees another dog. It works most of the time but it's success is dependant on how close the other dog is. 
My question is really about should I still be mixing her with other dogs when I can or is it too much given that it can't be done every day or even every week.

One thing I disagree with though is she does love playing with toys with other dogs. She's grown up with two other dogs and as I said I've dog sat other dogs and watched her share toys with all of them and play with them. Maybe I'm just lucky but she is not possessive in any way. I've had dogs for many years and taught them all that I am in charge of the toys and I've never had a problem. 
Thanks again.


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## erfunhouse (Jun 8, 2013)

Amurphy26 said:


> It is really hard because her bad days are really bad but then she'll have a good day and I start to think there's hope. On Monday she was continually trying to pin my friends submissive Kelpie, she was snarling and being a complete bully. 5 mins later a springer spaniel came charging at her, she reacted by barking and lunging. It ignored her in a typical crazy spaniel way and they ended up having a great time chasing each other along the beach! I just can't work her out. She seems a typical bully. Will take advantage of the weak dogs but is actually terrified when they don't respond how she expects.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I don't see "reactivity" in this...I see a rude, young dog wanting to play and not knowing how to NICELY ask to play. How do you play with her? Given that I'm by NO MEANS experienced in this and I don't allow Sabo to play with others...He has a few that he CAN play with appropriately and has learned to play bow to initiate play. I will play bow with him (or the human version...I will bend at the waist, arms out and "hrrrruuuuffff") then run and start the chasing game.

Am I right to do so? Who knows. Just my thoughts.


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## Amurphy26 (Jul 22, 2012)

erfunhouse said:


> I don't see "reactivity" in this...I see a rude, young dog wanting to play and not knowing how to NICELY ask to play. How do you play with her? Given that I'm by NO MEANS experienced in this and I don't allow Sabo to play with others...He has a few that he CAN play with appropriately and has learned to play bow to initiate play. I will play bow with him (or the human version...I will bend at the waist, arms out and "hrrrruuuuffff") then run and start the chasing game.
> 
> Am I right to do so? Who knows. Just my thoughts.


Maybe we're all crazy but I've played like that in the past with dogs but never with her. It's definitely something to consider. 
Our neighbours Papillon charged at her aggressively from when she was 12 weeks old. Our other neighbours young cockapoo would spring out of no where and charge her to start play. I'm pretty sure that's where all this has come from. Unfortunately our rural location meant these formed the basis of her dog socialising. She would react by barking at lunging at every dog we dog sat but within 30 mins she accepted them and was really playful. Some other GSD owners have said she will grow out of some of it. I really hope so. 


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Midnite greeted dogs the same way and sounded like he wanted to kill them. It wasn't aggression, it was no manners. Once we started training and we got him around a couple stable dogs, it changed and he now sniffs butts like he is suppose to


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i think less confident dogs can become bully's. they figure they will get the other dog before it gets them. and they do know who they can push around and who they can't. again my advice would be to get a trainer involved to help you in these dog to dog situations. learn how to correct the behavior and learn how to read your dog. money well spent. also once you have some knowledge behind you on dealing with this, if you have friends people you can just walk your dog with onleash and practice. people with low keyed confident dogs, this will help tons. you can't correct the behavior unless you know how to do it in setting your dog up working bit by bit on it.


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## LynnPritchard (Jan 31, 2011)

I am new to this string. However, it brings back old and unpleasant memories for me: in 1968, I had my very first GSD, a gorgeous large 3-mo old male puppy. This was back in the days when, at least near me in Charlottesville, VA, dogs stayed outside during the day and played with neighbors' dogs. Out of total ignorance on my part, I allowed this puppy to be "bullied" by two older neighboring male Goldens: they would run at him whenever they saw him and knock him down. When he was submissive to this assault, they'd let him up and play with him. It absolutely changed his head, and it took me years to figure out that this was my fault entirely for allowing such behavior. Sadly, this ultimately 103-lb male turned into a ferocious attacker of other male dogs and put two in the hospital. He left females unmolested. And, if a male dog would roll over on his back, he'd leave him alone. I was unaware that dog trainers or behavioralists even existed at that time and was unable to change his behavior. It detracted hugely from our enjoyment of the dog, as we had to be on guard at all times.

My advice is this: do whatever you need to do to find help for this problem while perhaps you still can. She sounds like a lovely dog and well worth whatever effort you must put in.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

My pup was very confident ... and I thought he was rude. I'm sorry now that his puppy socialization class allowed so much interaction up front (free play). I interrupted if I felt he was being a bit much >He was too much for every pup in the class except another little female GSD ...and they sounded like they were killing each other. The trainer didn't feel he was being a bully, but I did. I should have done more but was definitely feeling overwhelmed with my first pup in over 10 years. 'sigh' ahh .. hindsight. Now, I don't let him play with other dogs. There are none that I know that are his size that I consider suitable. He's just too ... much. Any dog smaller than him, he doesn't respect their space. So .. nope.

I would work on getting your dog desensitized to other dogs ... working on that with mine. Just because dogs are around they don't need to play with them. They don't always get to meet every dog/person they see. Impulse control is a good thing.


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## Amurphy26 (Jul 22, 2012)

LynnPritchard said:


> I had my very first GSD, a gorgeous large 3-mo old male puppy. This was back in the days when, at least near me in Charlottesville, VA, dogs stayed outside during the day and played with neighbors' dogs. Out of total ignorance on my part, I allowed this puppy to be "bullied" by two older neighboring male Goldens: they would run at him whenever they saw him and knock him down. When he was submissive to this assault, they'd let him up and play with him.


Hi, that's pretty much how her problems started and like the previous person at training classes I naively thought she would learn from other dogs. Unfortunately she did learn, she learnt how to bully!

We're now working hard on having her around calm dogs without reacting and at the end of this month I'm spending a week with a trainer/behaviourist doing little bits every day. Rural locations make life difficult not just because trainers are miles away but also because calm dogs seem to be rare. 

It does help knowing other people are in or have been in the same situation. I've a fair bit of dog training etc behind me so it's very easy to feel like a failure when things go wrong with your own dog.x 



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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Hi, that's pretty much how her problems started and like the previous person at training classes I naively thought she would learn from other dogs. Unfortunately she did learn, she learnt how to bully!


The thing is, (and I see you are getting this now) that it's not up to other dogs to teach my dog to behave. It's up to me too. I need to step in. I need to be proactive. I need to manage the situation. My dogs always have one eye on me when they are out and about because they know I have rules and expectations and when they step over the line then I step in. Not harshly or with punishment so much as paying attention and PREVENTING the over the top behaviors, and reacting early if there looks like there will be an issue.

There are 'dog' type things we can do our dogs understand (and other dogs) to help calm them early. Have you purchased and watched the DVD Calming Signals by Turid Rugaas? Don't just buy the book you need to WATCH the DVD. Bonus about the DVD is many of the dogs shown are GSD's so we can really see similar behaviors from our dogs.





 







Calming signals, photos - Turid Rugaas - International Dog Trainer


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## Amurphy26 (Jul 22, 2012)

Since getting Breagha I've transitioned from believing dogs will work things out themselves to understanding that it's up to us to help them when things don't go to plan. Don't get me wrong, I still believe that young pups learn to socialise and communicate best with calm adult dogs and other balanced pups but Breagha's up bringing has been one that needed more human guidance, I've definitely failed her in that. This is the first time I've raised a pup without access to regular puppy classes or other dogs to guide a pup. It's been a massive learning curve. 

On the plus side (I try to look for the positive in everything), had it not been for Breagha I probably wouldn't of heard of Turid, Calming signals, T Touch,BAT, NILF etc. I haven't watched Turid Rugaas's DVD but will make sure I do. We're finding out what works for Breagha and WHEN we get through this she will be one amazing dog.



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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

sounds like you are getting the idea.............all the tecniques mentioned above are great. i would honestly still get a professional private trainer for a time, have an evaluation, and get their help getting started. i think problem solving is much more successful with a professional trainers help. and also someone objective and can see you with the dog and point out things that you might be doing that you aren't aware of.................best of luck!!!


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## Amurphy26 (Jul 22, 2012)

debbiebrown said:


> sounds like you are getting the idea.............all the tecniques mentioned above are great. i would honestly still get a professional private trainer for a time, have an evaluation, and get their help getting started. i think problem solving is much more successful with a professional trainers help.


I do have a professional trainer involved via email but as I've mentioned I live in a very rural location and they are roughly 8 hours away so I can only meet with then a couple of times a year. The only reason I'm mentioning it is because when I first started looking for advice I kept getting told 'take her to classes', 'get a behaviourist round to your house'. Sometimes these things aren't possible. The first trainer I met (again 8 hours away) met me for 2 hours, showed me BAT techniques and then sent me on my way telling me to continue the work in a busy park or another area with lots of dogs! I'm lucky if we see more than 1 dog a week on our whole island! I don't mean to sound negative or argumentative but I have already explained my location and that I am going to spend a week with a trainer at the end of the month. It gets pretty frustrating when you keep getting told to see a trainer but it's not that easy. 
None the less all your advice has been helpful.
Thanks.




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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

your circumstances are hard with limited access. sounds like your doing the best you can. occasional help is better than none. keep educating yourself in the meantime and work on things the best you can. best of luck!


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## LynnPritchard (Jan 31, 2011)

Good luck! Breagha is lucky to have you in her camp! Those videos sound wonderful, too, and the sample was excellent.


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## Amurphy26 (Jul 22, 2012)

I feel like I'm practically studying dog behaviour. I'm learning a lot from her and I know we'll get there. 
Thanks again.
X


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## LynnPritchard (Jan 31, 2011)

Are you making progress?


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## Amurphy26 (Jul 22, 2012)

Not really. She's got a lot worse over the last few weeks/months. She's gone from ignoring dogs in the distant to going completely crazy from just the smell. I've had to go back to basics. Trying to mix her with other dogs, even in a controlled way was too much. One day I'll get things right!


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

I know just how you feel! My reactive girl has periods of good times and then sometimes I wonder if we have gotten anywhere. Lately she has been off her rocker. But one day at a time.
On a positive note...she was able to pass the CGC test which was a HUGE accomplishment. She was having a great day that day. I am quite sure there are other days that she would have failed....


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## LynnPritchard (Jan 31, 2011)

Hang in there, girl....she's lucky to have you in her court. Wish I had something wonderfully helpful to add!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Galathiel said:


> I would work on getting your dog desensitized to other dogs ... working on that with mine. Just because dogs are around they don't need to play with them. They don't always get to meet every dog/person they see. Impulse control is a good thing.


This is going to be easier for "you" to accomplish on your own.
Is it necessary for her to be around other dogs? Some dogs just don't play well with others. And it sounds like your constantly putting her in bad situations??

To answer your question I would say stop! Retrench and rethink your approach, it seems obvious that what your doing isn't helping your dog?

But hey maybe the same approach that hasn't worked so far..will work the next time??


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## Amurphy26 (Jul 22, 2012)

My main problem with dealing with and helping her is this......
Example-
I took her to a large field near our house, in total there are about 8 dogs a day there and we were going to stay in the furthest corner doing obedience and nose work with her on a long line. All was going well, she was rewarded for looking at a dog and then concentrating on me. It was brilliant.....then the off lead, no recall, hyperactive cocker spaniel sprints over to us, ignores my dogs lunging and barking and repeatedly charges at her. Being on a long line she could of bit it but thankfully her reactions are more threatening and scary looking than actually aggresive. There was no sign of the owner. I was stood there trying to hold onto my barking, lunging GSD while this cocker just continued harassing her. He eventually appeared 'walked' over, chased his dog, caught it and walked off. I was fuming, and in the politest manner I could manage I asked him to keep his dog on a lead or under control. The same thing happened to my husband a few days later. 
I've definitely pushed things too far with the group walks and I'm not doing anything like that again for the foreseeable future but how will I ever make progress when we've no training classes etc and a lot of the local dogs are off lead and out of control. I'm definitely feeling a bit lost and despondent at the moment. I can't hide her away. 


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## Bequavious (Mar 9, 2013)

Amurphy26 said:


> My main problem with dealing with and helping her is this......
> Example-
> I took her to a large field near our house, in total there are about 8 dogs a day there and we were going to stay in the furthest corner doing obedience and nose work with her on a long line. All was going well, she was rewarded for looking at a dog and then concentrating on me. It was brilliant.....then the off lead, no recall, hyperactive cocker spaniel sprints over to us, ignores my dogs lunging and barking and repeatedly charges at her. Being on a long line she could of bit it but thankfully her reactions are more threatening and scary looking than actually aggresive. There was no sign of the owner. I was stood there trying to hold onto my barking, lunging GSD while this cocker just continued harassing her. He eventually appeared 'walked' over, chased his dog, caught it and walked off. I was fuming, and in the politest manner I could manage I asked him to keep his dog on a lead or under control. The same thing happened to my husband a few days later.
> I've definitely pushed things too far with the group walks and I'm not doing anything like that again for the foreseeable future but how will I ever make progress when we've no training classes etc and a lot of the local dogs are off lead and out of control. I'm definitely feeling a bit lost and despondent at the moment. I can't hide her away.
> ...


This definitely sounds like a tough situation. I would think, given your limited access to dogs and especially calm stable dogs, teaching her to ignore them would be more achievable than teaching her to interact properly. I can see you working on this at the park, and it seemed to be having a positive effect, until the loose dog completely went over her threshold.

I wonder if carrying a big stick and coming between the loose dog and your own would help? I'm not sure how worried you are about your dog inflicting actual damage on the other, but if you could see the dog coming and put yours in a sit or a down and get between them before the other dog is too close. Then with a big stick and an assertive attitude you might be able to drive the other dog away while showing yours that YOU are the one that handles other dogs. The closest I've done to this is run interference at the dog park, and inside my own house when we had a friend's dog over for some training, though, so I don't know how well it would work for you, but it was very effective in our situations.

If her wearing a muzzle makes you more comfortable and calmer I would probably have her wear one. Not that SHE necessarily needs it, but you HAVE to remain calm and collected and that's very hard to do in these situations. Also I hear that people tend to control their dogs and children better around muzzled dogs


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Other people's loose pets shouldn't be a big deal. Usually they're just coming over to play with your dog. Since you don't want them near you, you should be able to scare them off pretty easily before they get very close. You'll have to ignore your own dog for a moment, but if you can take a few steps towards them, in a threatening manner, and yell at them in a voice that says "meet your maker" then they'll run off in most cases. You just have to make them understand that coming closer might mean the end, lol. Good luck, stay composed and have fun


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Amurphy26 said:


> ...then the off lead, no recall,
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Ok right there, that is your first issue!

Dogie shouldn't be allowed off leash until you have absolute rock solid recall! You have to break it down into baby steps, you tried to avoid other dogs, that kinda failed this time but it revealed another problem so that's good!

Ultimately what you would have wanted in this situation, was for your dog to come to you, you step in front of her and you deal with the dog, while she stands behind you.

If she won't come when called...not gonna happen! 


Other dog issue, it didn't sound like a dog park, just an owner that had no control of his dog. Just get a can of pepper spray, spray the intruder in the face...problem solved, that owner will be more aware of where his dog is in the future!


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## Amurphy26 (Jul 22, 2012)

It's all getting a bit confusing. My dog has a great recall but was on a long line because of her reactiveness to other dogs and because we were doing training. It was the other dog who wouldn't go back to it's owner. 
I know all about standing in front of her but in this instance I had a tangle of my dog panicking and me trying to get in front her while the cocker spaniel charged her and she alternated from 'get away from me' to 'I'll get you'. Total disaster.


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## Alwaysaworkingdog (Feb 27, 2013)

Amurphy26 said:


> It's all getting a bit confusing. My dog has a great recall but was on a long line because of her reactiveness to other dogs and because we were doing training. It was the other dog who wouldn't go back to it's owner.
> I know all about standing in front of her but in this instance I had a tangle of my dog panicking and me trying to get in front her while the cocker spaniel charged her and she alternated from 'get away from me' to 'I'll get you'. Total disaster.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


And that's the problem with dog parks. You're setting your dog up for failure by training in a location in which you don't control all the variables. Environmental stressors are easy to control, as they're normally stationary objects that you can work at from a comfortable distance, but social stressors are far more complex and hard to control. You trained at a distance from the stimulus, but you couldn't control the off-leash dog. This is one of the reasons people think dog parks are a bad idea, because uncontrollable dogs are a regular occurrence. 

I have had three bad run ins with dogs that did not have proper recall. The first, ruined my dog, who was probably already quite weak nerved, a little dog was about 10 meters away and barked at him, this was when he was only a few months old, so very impressionable. This was in a field, that had previously been a dog park trial area that had since expired, I had no warning as the owner suddenly took is dog off-leash. My pup was only small and barked very aggressively back at the dog. He has been dog aggressive ever since. The other two instances almost resulted in the other dogs getting bit, I mean, his teeth are clattering from the force he is putting down whilst I struggle to keep these other dogs from getting bit whilst simultaneously shooing them and you'd be surprised how many dogs just don't get the picture.

Now when I look back at all of that, it would be easy to dismiss it as the fault of clueless owners with clueless dogs and that there was nothing I could have done to prevent these things from occurring. But I don't think that's a very productive way of looking at things. I could have avoided places where I knew dogs might be off leash, I could have been more aggressive when deterring these approaching dogs and I could have reacted as soon as I noticed any warning signs.

As an owner of a dog-reactive dog myself, I feel for you, but I do not see any need for my dog, or your dog, to have to interact with other strange dogs *especially at dog parks*. You have the power, you have to be aware that you can't control everything that happens when you walk out the door,* but* you can *limit* the potential for these instances to occur. You may just have to come to terms with the fact that your dog just wasn't made to interact with strange dogs, and that's perfectly ok. In fact it'll improve your engagement with your dog because she won't be so focused on other dogs. If you want to work a dog under distraction near a dog park, then pick one that's fenced. If you remove from your mindset, the notion that dog owners should force their dogs into situations where they will inevitably have to interact with other dogs i.e. dog parks, then managing your dog will become a lot easier.

I'll put some links below if you're interested. It's my opinion, based upon my experience and the philosophy of others in the field. Just one philosophy of many, not saying it's right for you, but I want my dog to engage with me and me alone, there isn't any part in that for strange unpredictable dogs.

*Management*
Managing Your Dog

*Dog Parks*
The Problem with Dog Parks

Leerburg | Dog Parks: Why They Are A Bad Idea

*Equipment*
Leerburg | Leather Prong Collar Leash™

It's worth a look at least, for a slightly different perspective.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Alwaysaworkingdog said:


> And that's the problem with dog parks. You're setting your dog up for failure by training in a location in which you don't control all the variables. Environmental stressors are easy to control, as they're normally stationary objects that you can work at from a comfortable distance, but social stressors are far more complex and hard to control. You trained at a distance from the stimulus, but you couldn't control the off-leash dog. This is one of the reasons people think dog parks are a bad idea, because uncontrollable dogs are a regular occurrence.
> 
> I have had three bad run ins with dogs that did not have proper recall. The first, ruined my dog, who was probably already quite weak nerved, a little dog was about 10 meters away and barked at him, this was when he was only a few months old, so very impressionable. This was in a field, that had previously been a dog park trial area that had since expired, I had no warning as the owner suddenly took is dog off-leash. My pup was only small and barked very aggressively back at the dog. He has been dog aggressive ever since. The other two instances almost resulted in the other dogs getting bit, I mean, his teeth are clattering from the force he is putting down whilst I struggle to keep these other dogs from getting bit whilst simultaneously shooing them and you'd be surprised how many dogs just don't get the picture.
> 
> ...


Only caution I would give here is the with the prong collar. They are a good tool in the hands of an "expert" or a skilled armature! I was neither and the only dog I had that would not walk properly on a loose leash was the only dog I used a prong collar on!

"I' was doing something it was a 10 year mistake!

If you can't do this or you can't follow what he's doing..then don't use it, first link.







These are safer techniques you can't psychologically damage your dog. 






And here is creepy guy as a anther member named him!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Amurphy26 said:


> It's all getting a bit confusing. My dog has a great recall but was on a long line because of her reactiveness to other dogs and because we were doing training. It was the other dog who wouldn't go back to it's owner.
> I know all about standing in front of her but in this instance I had a tangle of my dog panicking and me trying to get in front her while the cocker spaniel charged her and she alternated from 'get away from me' to 'I'll get you'. Total disaster.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 No not a problem... it went from a training drill to a live fire exercise!

The two things you have that don't cost anything are time and patience!

OK lecture time!  We can't help if you don't knowledge weakness. Few of us are perfect, I made big mistakes with my guys that sent me to the emergency ward when my guys got into fight(s). I chose to learn the hard way! I could have asked a question on the board..."Can I pry a 117 lb GSD's jaws apart with my fingers if the need arises? I found that the answer was ugh no!!!!!!!!!!!! Stitches required in my fingers! That's learning the hard way!

That said..you say your dog has good recall but...he proved you wrong under duress! You understand how to protect your dog but your job is to convince him! Heed the advise from Alwaysaworkingdog.

If you weren't in a dog park...and your dog did not come when called, you learned your long leash is to long shorten it up half the distance,you used, your training here not exercising.

Your dog didn't come and you had to scramble to try and protect him. Second the Spaniel, should have been more afraid of you then your dog! 

Your dog was all over the place so it was difficult for you to handle the situation but as you say you want your dog behind you and you face the incoming dog. When your dog is under control you can shout commands stomp your feet or just pepper spray the little POS in the face! His well being is not your concern! Your dog is!

I give no quarter myself I don't go to dog parks, my guys are always under my control and I treat any dog coming at me as a threat that I need to deter not my dog!

I've been both skilled and lucky my guys have never been successfully harnessed or bitten by another dog.  As soon as you step in front most dogs lose focus on your dog, These aren't going to be trained attack dogs coming at you there just A Holes! 

Below is what you strive for,this was not a training exercise! I worked hard on my guy for years and this is what he did under fire,  I was pretty PO'd when someone asked me point blank what would my dog do??? So I answered him!

germanshepherds.com/forum/aggression-good-bad-ugly/399905-what-would-my-dog-do-2.html


And my wife was in the background with my Boxer and Struddell was holding station while this went down...she was a good baby girl!

Anyway you post what your doing and we can critique and help you get to your goals if you want the help. We are just as happy to say ..".JOB WELL DONE!" when you do good!


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## Amurphy26 (Jul 22, 2012)

I give up. I'm not ungrateful of the critique or advice but I am getting very confused. I do acknowledge my weakness, I am well aware of it which is why I'm trying hard and working on my handling of my dog. I think I'll leave it at that. My dogs reactiveness is complex and our relationship is complex, it's all too difficult to explain and discuss on a forum. 
Thanks anyway.


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## Bequavious (Mar 9, 2013)

Chip18 said:


> That said..you say your dog has good recall but...he proved you wrong under duress! You understand how to protect your dog but your job is to convince him! Heed the advise from Alwaysaworkingdog.
> 
> If you weren't in a dog park...and your dog did not come when called, you learned your long leash is to long shorten it up half the distance,you used, your training here not exercising.
> 
> Your dog didn't come and you had to scramble to try and protect him. Second the Spaniel, should have been more afraid of you then your dog!


The OP can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure she wasn't in a dog park and she didn't call her dog since it was already on leash. I think she was in a regular park where someone else didn't have their dog on leash and THAT dog didn't have a good recall.


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## Bequavious (Mar 9, 2013)

Amurphy26 said:


> I give up. I'm not ungrateful of the critique or advice but I am getting very confused. I do acknowledge my weakness, I am well aware of it which is why I'm trying hard and working on my handling of my dog. I think I'll leave it at that. My dogs reactiveness is complex and our relationship is complex, it's all too difficult to explain and discuss on a forum.
> Thanks anyway.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Oh and I had another idea for something that might help, if you're still following this thread. I wonder if you could find a dog group or something online where you could meet other dog enthusiasts near you with well trained dogs that are willing to be distractions while you train? Don't know if that's possible, but I bet it would really be helpful


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## Amurphy26 (Jul 22, 2012)

Bequavious said:


> Oh and I had another idea for something that might help, if you're still following this thread. I wonder if you could find a dog group or something online where you could meet other dog enthusiasts near you with well trained dogs that are willing to be distractions while you train? Don't know if that's possible, but I bet it would really be helpful



Hi, 
Thank you. I'm working with a trainer at the moment on handling her reactions at the initial greeting and at the same time organising to meet up with other like minded dog people to build on the work I've been doing. 
Originally I wondered if I was pushing her too far and at the point I started this thread I definitely was. 

With regards to her recall, the off lead dog was at her before I had a chance to call her, I have to give her length in the lead as part of the training and if I was a brilliant handler without fault I wouldn't have asked for advice. I am a determined and dedicated owner so with all my failings I will continue to work with her but there will always be slips and times when I doubt myself. Cheers for the support. I'll let you know how we get on.


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## Bequavious (Mar 9, 2013)

Amurphy26 said:


> Hi,
> Thank you. I'm working with a trainer at the moment on handling her reactions at the initial greeting and at the same time organising to meet up with other like minded dog people to build on the work I've been doing.
> Originally I wondered if I was pushing her too far and at the point I started this thread I definitely was.
> 
> ...


Yay! I'm confident you'll make good progress  I'm pretty sure all of us have had poor timing, bad judgement, and seriously doubted our handling ability, but perseverance and imperfect dogs make better trainers of us all  Wishing you luck!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Give yourself a break, Nobody expects you to be perfect, I'm certainly not! You got sandbagged it happens, glad you found some help! Doing it alone can be very hard and overwhelming and you can't "fix" everything at once. Baby steps and time is what it takes and you learn along the way.


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## Amurphy26 (Jul 22, 2012)

Progress!!

I can be a bit negative sometimes and often feel like I'm not getting anywhere but recently we have made amazing progress! I think a combination of techniques such as using the 'leave' and 'watch' commands and BAT have slowly increased my dogs trust in me. It started with finding that she calms down much quicker after her initial explosive reaction and both yesterday and today were amazing!

Today in particular I took her into our local village. It's starting to get busier now that the weathers better and there were loads if barking dogs about. We didn't have one single reaction! A choc lab that she has previously gone crazy at from 10 metres away was doing it's best to wind her up but not only did she not react she looked relaxed! She looked at me when I said leave when I thought she was staring for too long and even went for a pat from a stranger!

I'm sure that there will be some bad days and there hasn't been an over night transformation but so far I am loving this good day!


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## LynnPritchard (Jan 31, 2011)

What WONDERFUL news! Well done! So very glad to hear about your progress!


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## Amurphy26 (Jul 22, 2012)

Thank you. I'm so used to her reacting I didn't really know what to do with myself! I loved it!


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## LynnPritchard (Jan 31, 2011)

Do you suppose that general maturity could have anything to do with it, too? I cannot remember how old she is. 

We're now a bit concerned about our GDS 8 mo old puppy, as there aren't enough dogs around him for him to be properly socialized. Frankly, he's a ninny, but his general insecurity that tends to manifest itself in his barking at and appearing to be aggressive toward both other dogs and people. Nothing is easy.


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## Amurphy26 (Jul 22, 2012)

Maturity probably does play a large part. She's 19 mths now and we've both noticed that in general life she seems a lot calmer and relaxed. Part of our problem was also a lack of other dogs for socialising but I lost confidence in her and my own abilities which made things worse. A friend of mine has a 3yr old GSD who they said was exactly the same as our bitch when she was younger. Total demon and very reactive, she's now going on walks with 10 other dogs and is very well behaved. They're my inspiration.


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## LynnPritchard (Jan 31, 2011)

Hallelujah!! Such great news!

Mine means so well and is a sweetheart, but when 83 lbs of shepherd looks aggressive, it isn't pretty to others, human or canine!


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## Amurphy26 (Jul 22, 2012)

Whatever you do don't make the same mistake I did. I was so worried about what other dog owners might think of my barking, lunging GSD, for a while I avoided other dog owners. Big mistake! It just made her worse. 

Good luck, I'm sure yours will calm down. 8 mths to 18 mths was the hardest time so far.x 


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## LynnPritchard (Jan 31, 2011)

Thanks for the vote of confidence and the solid advice! And HOORAY for your girl (and you!)!


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