# Any information on this breeder?



## gbocrafty

http://www.royalair.org/

I have talked to this breeder about about her dogs. Have not sent a deposit in because the litter isn't due until this fall. Bitch has not come into heat yet.

Does anyone know more about this breeder?


----------



## Liesje

There's been a few threads on this breeder lately.

I personally would not go there but I think there are people here with dogs from them...


----------



## Fodder

i hope you like to read: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&topic=76472

definitely worth the read in my opinion... there are positive and negative reviews, as well as several members with royalair dogs which i'm sure you can PM and converse with privately if you prefer.

but me personally - i would look further.


----------



## bmass01

Only thing I could say would be it would bother me that she is breeding out of standard GSD's on purpose. Breeders should be breeding to better the breed.


----------



## gbocrafty

Thanks for the link -I am busy reading now.


----------



## Minnieski

Oh lord, here we go again.


----------



## RubyTuesday

Both of my GSDs are from Royalair. My next will be as well. I love her dogs, though they're not for everybody (but whose are?). I've found her honest, easy to work with, helpful & supportive before & after acquiring dogs from her.

Her dogs are healthy, stable, confident, biddable, intelligent & athletic. They tend to be lower in prey drive & while both of mine are reserved, neither is innately suspicious. (Actually Djibouti isn't particularly reserved, though he's clearly focused on me rather than others. He's still a pup so he might become more reserved with maturity. I'm fine with him regardless)

IF you're interested in schutzhund, personal protection training or conformation showing you should probably look elsewhere. Feel free to pm me.

FTR, those who have her dogs rave about 'em. IF hers are the type of GSD you're seeking, I think you'll be very happy with her & her pups. IF it's another kind of GSD you'd be happiest with, then go for the dog that best suits you & your family. Choosing the right dog is a HUGE responsibility.


----------



## RubyTuesday

> Quote:Breeders should be breeding to better the breed.


***WARNING***Rant ahead...(& nothing personal, bmass01. It's intended generally & is NOT directed at you) 

Pfft & hogwash. This is something everybody says cuz they're spozed to say it, like parents on sex before marriage. Dogs have been selectively bred for hundreds, in some cases thousands of years. Even GSDs have been bred for ~100yrs. Just how long 'til we get it right??? And what then?

Too damned many breeders mouthing this platitude are churning out dogs with weak nerves, wonky temperaments, horrendous health problems, decreasing vigor & shortened lives, while they obsess over ear set, tail set, eye shape, pigment, coat, color & angles.

Dogs are now so perfected that some breeds no longer have noses, others are drowning in their own coats, still others are heat/cold intolerant, can't exercize, breed or birth naturally! 

How much more improvement can our beloved dogs withstand? The GSD standard isn't my bible & doesn't resonate with me like it does with others, but if it did, I'd feel the same way about this. My issue here has nothing to do with dogs being over sized, under sized or juuust right. Whether bred to the standard or not, all breeders, of every breed, should be rigorously selecting for health(mental & physical), vigor & longevity. Improving the breed(s) oughta mean healthier & longer lived. Too damned often improving the breed is synonymous with destroying the dog.

Rant over...& sorry(sort of).


----------



## Liesje

Setting aside the disputes over size/condition and the true origins of the breed, the main reason I would look elsewhere is the prices. Pretty high prices for breeding dogs that are not titled and don't meet the breed standard. Also I personally don't agree with charging more simply based on the level of registration.


----------



## GSDBESTK9

I wouldn't walk away, I would RUN away!


----------



## cliffson1

RT, I "think" that I agree with you in principle....smile!


----------



## Doc

I breed "off standard" German shepherds (i.e. larger than the standard). My lines come from some very old, recognizable and highly titled bloodlines from the 50's and 60's. In today's show and working arena, my dogs do not conform - and I choose not to compete, and therefore my dogs are not titled. Titles do not guarantee healthy dogs anymore than the Standard can. I will always content that "the only good German shepherds are to Standard and titled" is rubbish. That is my professional opinion.

If you are into the Standard and titling mindset, I am OK with that and will not judge you or your dog. I just ask the same in return.

I have purposely withheld my web-site from this form. After being accused of having "some hidden agenda" for being here I removed my contact and web-site information. If anyone is interested in my breeding philosophy or looking at my wonderful "bastardized" German shepherd dogs, you can send me pm.


----------



## Liesje

Doc, it's nothing personal. Yes, I show and title my dogs, so off standard dogs that don't work are not what I'm interested in. Again, it's nothing personal, but if I'm paying a lot of money and committing 15 years of my life to each dog then I will get more or less exactly what I want. I don't have any problem with variety either, I have one working line and one show line and will probably always keep it that way. 

The problem with the "old bloodlines" argument is just that, you are talking about dogs that are from half a century ago. It may be a shame they've died out, but that's just the way it is.


----------



## Doc

So you have no respect for the older bloodlines? Or the history of this breed in this country? Or bloodlines that do not exhibit the long list of health disorders we see today? That's fine. But do not try to convince me that the older bloodlines are no good, have nothing to offer and deserve to be eliminated. I can not accept that especially reading and seeing so many cases of bloat, skin allergies, ear infections, diarrhea and early death.

There is no logical reason to show or title a dog from "the old" blood. Political novices have overtaken organizations and along with some very skewed minds of judges - the German shepherd is close to being a "has been" breed. I'm sorry, but I believe it is true. I do not want a low rider show dog or a nervy wonky headed worker - I want a German shepherd that can do both well and live in my house with me. Just like they use to and recognized and titled as both.

It is unfortunate to us "old fogies" to see the current state of affairs of the German shepherd. Ask Clif, he predicted the demise of the German shepherd over 30 years ago, and unfortunately he was right. As you said, it's not personal, it is a fact. Today's German shepherd is overly specialized, judged by closed minded individuals and constant bickering between the working and show line people. All of these factors will do more harm than good to this once outstanding versatile breed.

And Lies, some of those old lines are still around should anyone ever want to ask about them. You never know, they may be the very thing that will save this breed.


----------



## Liesje

Doc, it doesn't matter because they aren't around anymore. I respect people that know what they are doing and do it for their dogs, period. I don't care if they have a cross or a show line or a working line dog. I don't bicker about work or show, I have both and love both. There are some outstanding breeders that have planned "crossed" litters and I'm excited to see how these dogs develop. I know that the generalizations are worthless anyway. My pure working line dog won't tug on a piece of raw meat. 

I want to train, show, and title dogs period. I have two dogs I do this with: a working line GSD, and a German show line GSD. Each has their own strengths and weaknesses. Neither of my GSDs are low riders, both live with me in the house. Both are titled in the show ring, one is titled in several sport/performance events and the other is well on his way. I understand your concern and do not disagree with you but I guess I find more value in doing something than commiserating about the dogs of the past. If you are right, how will we ever get over the hump if we all refuse to do anything with what we have in front of us?


----------



## Doc

So why do you think I still breed from the old bloodlines? The problem is, they are not accepted by the newer die hard Standard only, titled only crowd. I am trying to "improve the breed" - health is foremost in my breeding philosophy - period. If the dog is small, standard, big is consequential. Can they be shown, titled is consequential. Are they accepted by the powers that be and those who drink the Kool-Aid - definitely not. Am I commiserating about the dogs of the past - only to educate younger folks about the virtues these bloodlines can offer.

I think it wonderful you train, show, title your dogs. More power to you Lies. I breed German shepherds, I don't show or title them. Unfortunately, my line of dogs are not "acceptable" show dogs nor are they "acceptable" working dogs. Mainly because they do not fit a certain mold in the eyes of judges or organizations. 

My dogs are healthy, protective, family oriented, and live long lives. And luckily, there are people that accept and appreciate those qualities.


----------



## Liesje

Doc we have shelter mutts on this board that are titled and I daresay probably do better SchH work than some of the gazillion dollar imported dogs I saw last weekend. I don't see any excuse, if the dogs are sound and intelligent they can and should work. It sounds like you are selling yourself short which is too bad because I believe you are a very knowledgable, experienced person which the breed needs more of putting themselves out there. 

I don't really give a flip about this organization or that organization. Yes I entered my dog in the UScA Sieger Show and I have no problem turning around and saying that some things that happened there are an embarrassment to the breed. My loyalties lie with my dogs, period. Not any judge or organization or club or breeder. That is why we dabble in so many different types of training and sport.

I appreciate the virtues of the old bloodlines but I need to see them. If they are so great then we need to see them represented.

You could also say I don't know what I'm missing since I was born in 1984.











> Quote:healthy, protective, family oriented, and live long lives


To me this should be a given with any breeder.


----------



## Doc

1984 ... Oh my, I have neck ties older than that. ROFL I think my attempt at showing would have to be in Obediance titles. I know not the same as Sch. and Conformation but it does show something about the dog.

I will not say or remind you of what you may have missed in the past only to encourage you to reflect on the past in light of the future.


----------



## Liesje

I think it also boils down to what a GSD is to us. To some they are pets, to others who are LEOs or shepherds they are their livelihood. To me they are somewhere in the middle: more than just a pet but a versatile working breed, a dog that can pass the courage test but also turn "off" and chill out on my couch.


----------



## WiscTiger

I helped a friend for a few years show Quarter Horse Yearlings in the show ring and she had a saying that has stuck with me for many many years.

Body by Fisher - Mind by Matel

Fisher Body works in Milwakee WI made some really nice auto bodies and well Matel we know is a toy maker.

I think there are a lot of showlines out there that are Body be Fisher - Mind by Matel.

I am not working lines or show lines. I want a GSD that has the temperament of a GSD. I want toughness, resilent, aloof and health.

Val


----------



## cliffson1

I definitely appreciate where "Doc" is coming from in terms of his type of dog from older stock. The dogs were sounder years ago in that they were all around dogs capable of many vocations. Specialization has really hurt the breed over the years....people breed for aspect of the dogs instead of breeding the whole dog...but i have said this before and I am sure people are tired of my spiel, but i do want to support what Doc is doing in terms of preserving the old type of dog. I try to have my dogs going back to Held v Ritterberg, Bernd v Lierberg, and Marko vom Cellerland.


----------



## RubyTuesday

> Quote:Setting aside the disputes over size/condition and the true origins of the breed, the main reason I would look elsewhere is the prices. Pretty high prices for breeding dogs that are not titled and don't meet the breed standard.


 I could have purchased an out of standard pup from untitled parents much cheaper, yes, but I would not have rec'd the breeder's expertise, experience, & ongoing support. Nor would I have the assurance of the extensive health histories, predictable temperaments, longevity & mental stability her dogs have consistently been bred for over 2-3 decades. 

I was very clear on what I wanted (& didn't want) in my GSDs. Few breeders really produce what I'm looking for. I do like big, specifically tall, but that's not my only criterion, nor the most important.



> Quote:Also I personally don't agree with charging more simply based on the level of registration.


The breeding warranty is more extensive than the pet warranty. Dogs are usually sold with limited registration, with full registration available only after the dog has rec'd passing OFAs. 

With a breeding warranty, dogs/bitches are guaranteed to pass OFA where mild HD is permitted in the pet warranty. Ears are not guaranteed to stand in the pet warranty but they are in the breeders'. Ditto an undescended testicle. New breeders will probably need additional ongoing support & education as well. Given that the level of guarantees & support is significantly higher, charging more seems reasonable.


----------



## Liesje

^ Then I don't agree with a different warranty for different dogs. Either the health is guaranteed, or it's not. I don't have a problem changing the registration of the dog after its been OFA'd and titled, but not actually charging more and having different warranties.


----------



## cliffson1

There is no such thing as a guarantee in dog breeding whether you be a "supposedly" reputable breeder or "pet breeder". Both breeders have the same elements occur in their litters,(hips, testicles, ears,etc). There is only the level of compensation that is provided by the breeder whether it is money or dog replacement. Sorry!


----------



## Liesje

Exactly but I don't think the level of compensation should change from one dog to the next. That doesn't make sense to me. Either a breeder stands behind their dogs or they don't. 

I'm not really big on "guarantees" myself because nothing is guaranteed, no breeder is going to bat 100, but I look at what has happened in cases where there was something "wrong" with the dog, how were those situations handled between the breeder and owner. I don't think a pet owner should be treated any differently than someone who is working or showing their dog.


----------



## Doc

Lies, are you saying you do not think a breeder should charge more for full registration when compared to a limited registration? Forgive me but I am having trouble following what you are trying to say. My mind isn't sharp this morning - it happens when you get a certain age! LOL

Like Clif said, guarantees on living animals is a difficult proposition. As a breeder, I know the health and genetic make up of my dogs. I have no control what happens to a pup once it leaves my home. For instance, what does a breeder do when one of their pups is x-rayed and has one hip that is labeled as dysplasic? Was this caused by genetics or environmentally? Personally, I do not beleive there is as close of a relationship as promoted between HD and genetics. If it were, why hasn't it been eliminated? Also, if it is genetics, why can 2 "excellent" dogs produce dyplasic pups. And in a litter how can some pups be OFA "Excellent" and others in the same litter have severe HD? And yet those in the litter with acceptable hips can breed and so can the dam and sire? And no one has ever explained to me in genetic terms how one hip can be dysplasic and the other is not.

What does a breeder do when he gets a call from a buyer that is feeding the pup Old Roy and can't put up with the pup squirting all over the house even when you sent the proper food home with them and wote down what to feed? Or when you get a call from a pup owner and their dog is having seizures when you know out of 7 generations of dams and sires plus pups there has only been one other report of seizures in a dog not directly related to their pup?

Being a good breeder is not as easy as it looks. It's not all waggin tails and puppy breath. But I wouldn't trade it for all the medals and ribbions in the world. 

You are right Lies, either a breeder stands behind their dogs or they don't. And those that don't make it very hard on us that do.


----------



## Liesje

Breeders should charge based on the _dog_, not the paperwork. I don't have a problem with a breeder adjusting the registration once the pup has been OFA'd and titled (going from limited to full). Also, yes I have a problem with different guarantees or agreements for different dogs. For example, I do not think it's fair if a breeder reimburses cost or replaces one dog with mild HD but not another from the same litter just because that one is a "pet" and the first one has a show rating. 



> Quote:What does a breeder do when he gets a call from a buyer that is feeding the pup Old Roy and can't put up with the pup squirting all over the house even when you sent the proper food home with them and wote down what to feed? Or when you get a call from a pup owner and their dog is having seizures when you know out of 7 generations of dams and sires plus pups there has only been one other report of seizures in a dog not directly related to their pup?


That would depend on the contract between breeder and buyer.


----------



## Doc

"For example, I do not think it's fair if a breeder reimburses cost or replaces one dog with mild HD but not another from the same litter just because that one is a "pet" and the first one has a show rating". 



You mean breeders actually do that? I would think a dog with HD is still a dog with HD regardless of what titles are bestowed upon them. That's the silliest thing I have ever heard! Some people just shouldn't be breeders ...


----------



## Liesje

Yes, I was initially responding to RubyTuesday's post



> Quote:With a breeding warranty, dogs/bitches are guaranteed to pass OFA where mild HD is permitted in the pet warranty.


I don't agree with that at all, which is what prompted my "breeder should stand behind their dogs, period" comment.

I understand that dogs with mild HD can live long lives and compete in performance events but that's not the point. I don't agree with having different prices and guarantees based on a "pet" vs "breeding" distinction. Likewise I don't think it's even possible to know what dogs are breeding quality at the age they are purchased.


----------



## Lauri & The Gang

> Originally Posted By: RubyTuesdayWith a breeding warranty, dogs/bitches are guaranteed to pass OFA where mild HD is permitted in the pet warranty. Ears are not guaranteed to stand in the pet warranty but they are in the breeders'. Ditto an undescended testicle.


I HIGHLY disagree with this and would consider a breeder who had this type of "guarantee" to NOT be a responsible breeder.


----------



## cliffson1

95% of the breeders in Germany donot have guarantees with puppies they sell.....are they reputable breeders? Why should principles change because the dog is imported, and if the elitest stick to their principles then they shouldn't be ever importing puppies from Germany. Oh what a tangled web we weave......


----------



## Liesje

I don't have a problem with no guarantees like in Europe but I don't have a problem WITH guarantees either, hence why I bought a dog in the US. The mother was imported, but as an adult, so her ED and HD status was known. As for breeders buying young dogs and puppies, I guess that's just the gamble they take, another good reason I'm glad I'm not a breeder and don't have to sort it all out. I don't think that European breeders not having guarantees makes them any less reputable or makes US breeders elitist. There are lots of ways to judge that.

But if a breeder *does* offer some sort of compensation or replacement I think it's silly that it would apply to one puppy in the litter but not another simply based on their level of registration.


----------



## Doc

My thoughts: it is next to impossible to guarantee the health of pup. There are too many factors beyond our control. But if a breeder doesn't have a health guarantee then the perception is that the breeder is not a responsible breeder and must be selling poor quality dogs. So guarantees are a necessary evil in the dog world. There was a time when a man's or woman's word and handshake was the guarantee but now it's all about someone afraid of being screwed on a deal.


----------



## RubyTuesday

Doc, you're a bigger cynic than me even!

Lies, it's unfair to state that a breeder isn't standing behind her dogs b/c her pet/breeder warranties are different. Dogs with even moderate HD can have long, active lives as pets & even working companions. (Only mild HD is NOT covered under her pet warranty, btw) It's also generally assumed dysplastic dogs should not be bred. Hence a different warranty for a non-breeding dog vs a breeder seems reasonable to me. It's also reasonable (IMO) that dogs with more extensive warranties who will probably require additional support cost more. IF it didn't, I'd buy elsewhere.



> Quote:There is only the level of compensation that is provided by the breeder whether it is money or dog replacement. Sorry!


Cliff, I agree. Completely. But guarantee & warranty are shorter, easier words & I'm a pizz poor dawdling typist.

Warranties serve several purposes, IMO. They clearly outline what are the reasonable expectations, rights & responsibilities of both parties. They indicate what recourse is available if things go seriously awry & how that s/b pursued. They can also indicate the caliber of person you're dealing with. Feeding requirements so restrictive the buyer is unlikely to be able to meet the contract conditions are a FLAMING*RED flag for me. A lengthy list of nit picking rules & regs indicate a micro-manager I'd rather not work with.

I won't get a dog from someone I don't trust, even if the dog is free. Realistically, the warranty is usually worth little more than the seller's word, so it's ultimately a *feel* for the breeder's character I'm interested in. IF I ever feel I *need* a warranty from a particular breeder then I probably need to reconsider that breeder.



> Quote:Likewise I don't think it's even possible to know what dogs are breeding quality at the age they are purchased.


True. Her pups are rarely available with full registration. A friend who asked about it with her pup was told they'd discuss it after the dog was considerably older & had passing OFAs & health certs. Only the limited registration was initially available.

Laurie, pet owners rarely bother to OFA their non-breeding dogs. These dogs can have faulty, even very bad hips, which owner & dog are blissfully unaware of. IMO, it's not a mark against the breeder to have more rigorous standards for breeders than non-breeders. Many breeders, including those most esteemed on this board, don't warranty ears in pet/companion dogs while they do for those intended for show or breeding. Is this a sign of an irresponsible breeder in all cases or only some?

Many people will quite reasonably seek a different type of GSD from a different breeder, as they should. Robin states as much on her web site. Those seeking her kind of GSD will likely find her to be knowledgeable, honorable, easy to work with & helpful throughout the dog's life. I say this with confidence b/c I've acquired dogs from her & I've talked with others that have as well.


----------



## luvu2

Doc
I find it very odd that you are passionate and proud of your business but went to great length to make sure know one knows what kennel you own? 

Sort of takes all your credibility away.


----------



## khawk

I'm going to weigh in on the initial question that started this thread. Like Ruby Tuesday (and unlike most of the rest of the posters) I have had actual hands on experience with a Royalair dog which I trained. He is now a social therapy dog for a woman with post tramatic stress disorder. He was neither dog aggressive nor people aggressive. He exhibited no drive problems during training, neither prey drive issues nor energy drive issues. He had none of the issues that seem to be the mainstay of this forum and though I would have called him 'fair' to train, I am sure the majority of the people with dogs from 'titled' parents on this forum would have found him a dream to work with. He never achieved the steadiness necessary for a brace-balance dog (in my opinion) but he was excellent with the wheelchair. He was steady on his trasnsfers, and loved to do braces in the grocery store when I had to get things off the higher shelves. He could handle the wheelchair and a grocery cart at the same time and could even find items in the store by name. I'd like to tell you about his cgc. (He qualified. Well.)

Jed was 26" and 84 pounds, well within standard. He had a long stock coat, or plush coat, and was a silver sable. I had difficulty finding an evaluator within 50 miles of me, so he was 2 when he took his cgc. It was administered at a Schutzhund trial being held at a local cattle ranch. My friend Pat told me about it, and I registered to have the test administered 2 weeks in advance. The day of the trial, I loaded up my wheelchair and the dog and traveled wa-a-a-y out into the country to take the test. I arrived a half an hour early, and after battling the uneven terrain to get to the trial secretary's stand (boy, did that dog have to work to get me there! Believe me, nobody sprang to help!) I found that my pre-registration had been lost. Despite showing them the receipt and acceptance of my money and my registration for the evaluation, I had to pay a second time and was told to wait, that the evaluator had not showed up yet. 

I then moved away from the traffic area, but not too far, and started my wait. I am a veteran of 4-H, Horse shows, obedience trials, dog shows, and other public events, but I have never felt so unwelcome at a public event. The cgc was supposed to be administered beginning at one pm. That hour came and went. For the 3 hours I waited, I (and my Royalair dog) were treated to a cacaphony of noise unlike anything I had ever experienced before. I have been at dog shows with hundreds of dogs present, but here, between the recurrant gunfire, screaming, roaring, snarling of dogs, and yells from the field where the dogs were trialing, the decibel level was shocking. Particularly since there were probably no more than thirty or forty dogs present at the most. I watched as dogs attacked their handlers while going to and from the trial field, attempted to attack other dogs (and sometimes succeeded) and refused to out on the field. I had been to a number of Schutzhund training events, but this was the first trial I had ever seen. Every dog I saw that afternoon wore a prong collar going to and from the trial field. Dog agression and people aggression was the order of the day. 

When the evaluator finally showed up, at a quarter to 4, she had no idea what the test was all about and had to stop and read the rules before she attempted to do it. Jed had to drag me across cow pasture to get to the area where the evaluation was performed. The tester dog--the 'friendly' stranger dog--tried to attack my dog and I had to try to manuver the chair between them with my dog's help--the Royalair dog kept his head and followed direction promptly and accurately, and thanks to his steady obedience, I wasn't too badly bitten. Some joker with the blank gun got a kick out of firing it repeatedly during the evaluation from close range. Trying to break the dog, I suppose. He emptied the thing 3 times overhead. Jed held his down stay for 3 minutes with me out of sight under that barrage, though prior to that afternoon he had never been exposed to gunfire before. 

After the dog had passed the test, I was mobbed by the people who had snubbed me for the entire 3 hours I waited for the evaluator to show up. One woman urged the Schutzhund exhibitors to take the test with their dogs since my Royalair dog had proved how 'easy' it was. As far as I know, she had no takers. I did not stay to visit--I was so disgusted by the entire experience that I simply took my passing paperwork and left. In my opinion, the Royalair dog exhibited a far steadier, more stable temperament than any dog I saw at that trial the entire afternoon. He did his job under extremely difficult conditions. His stays were solid and reliable, his recall was absolutely secure, (and a good thing it was, too--the evaluator had no long line to use if it wasn't! and the cow pasture was probably 20 acres of open graze) his heeling (when we were able to do it) absolutely loose leash. (Most of the time he had to work the harness.) Given the choice between another Royalair dog and a dog of Schutzhund titled parents to train, in my opinion, the choice would be a no-brainer--I would take the Royalair dog every time. 

There are many venues where a real world 'working' dog will never get a 'title' yet will prove themselves over and over again as a 'titled' dog never will. I believe that these dogs are at least as valuable as breeding animals (given issues of health, structure, and temperament are all exemplary) as those who achieve the narrow strictures of a schutzhund title (which is what most of the people on this forum are advocating). khawk


----------



## RubyTuesday

> Quoteoc
> I find it very odd that you are passionate and proud of your business but went to great length to make sure know one knows what kennel you own?
> 
> Sort of takes all your credibility away.


You're kidding right? IF Doc did post his kennel name there are probably those that would accuse him of 'advertising'...

Doc has stated he'll make that info available to those who pm him. I did & he did & personally I very much like the looks of his dogs. From their descriptions & expressions I bet I'd like em 'in the fur' even more than in their pix.

Soooo, pm him if you must have that info. Frankly, given your snarky & fairly pointless little dig, I think he's nutzzz if he shares that info with you. Actually, he is at least slightly nutzzzz...which is probably one reason I enjoy him so much. Other reasons are that he's knowledgeable, fair minded, resilient, funny, brings an interesting perspective to discussions & is willing to oppose the herd.

Khawk, that's a killer post. Thanks for sharing with us your experience with your Royalair dog. Reading your post I realize yet again why I love my little Djibouti so & why he's perfect for me!


----------



## Doc

I do not advertise on this form for the following reasons:

1. I came here to learn about German shepherds - whatever camp they fall into.

2. Initially I posted my web-site and email in my information but removed it when I was called a "BYB, puppy mill,unethical breeder, and having some alternative motive" for being here by some people in this form who know nothing about me or my business. I did not come here to promote my business or line of dogs. I came to learn and perhaps educate a few who have an open mind.

3. I have offered to PM with anyone in here if they are interested in my breeding philiosphy and/or German shepherds.

4. And because I do not breed to the Standard, show or Title my German shepherds, there is a unspoken bias with a large number of people in this form.

5. I will make the offer again to anyone who is interested - PM me and I will be happy to talk and give you the link to my web-site.

6. I am not the most politically correct person in the word, but there can be little doubt where I stand. And at least I open my ears and mind to those people even if I do not agree with their point of view.

I will form a virtual focus group from randomly selected members of this form and decide if my personal and business information should be public knowledge. After consultation with my advisers, the results of such focus group may or may not be made public. Then it will be determine, again by high paid staff of advisers, whether this information will be first released in "red" or "blue" states - or if it will be made public on the Letterman Show.


----------



## Doc

> Originally Posted By: michelle03Doc
> I find it very odd that you are passionate and proud of your business but went to great length to make sure know one knows what kennel you own?
> 
> Sort of takes all your credibility away.


I am passionate and proud of the older German shepherd bloodlines.

My credibility is built upon knowledge, experience and proven practices and can not be taken away from me.


----------



## Branca's Mom

khawk, I HAVE to ask... where in the world did you witness such a debacle of a SchH trial???


----------



## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: Branca's Momkhawk, I HAVE to ask... where in the world did you witness such a debacle of a SchH trial???


I was thinking much the same thing?

I've been to many SchH trials that offered CGC testing at their trial and had a lot of interest and participation from the SchH crowd. For several years I was a CGC evaluator and conducted CGCs at all our club's trials. We've typically put CGCs (and TDIs) on our SchH dogs too, as do most of our club members. 

If people at that trial didn't take the opportunity I'd expect it was their own ignorance or attitude about not being bothered with some "silly, PC AKC thing", not that the dogs couldn't do it. Especially since the BH test required before moving onto SchH titles is a MUCH more comprehensive obedience and temperament test, and much more difficult to pass, than a CGC.


----------



## Liesje

Yeah and some people don't care to give the AKC money just for a certificate of something the dog can easily pass.

I do it with my dogs (and take a class) but it's mostly because I consider the trainer a friend, I like going out to the club that does it (where I train with Kenya for a lot of things, but not SchH).


----------



## trudy

Congratulations on your dog passing. He sounds like a perfect example of the breed. He is a working dog with a job and he knows how to do it in the most unusual circumstances. I hope you have told the breeder about this, they must be proud of your/their dog. The few times i have seen schutzhund training I have seen the same, a lot of unneeded aggression. I am glad you were able to show the people there that your dog was sound and obedient. Congrats, I'd love to see a pic of your dog.


----------



## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: trudy The few times i have seen schutzhund training I have seen the same, a lot of unneeded aggression.


Not to get too off topic but if you have only seen SchH a "few times" it's possible what you saw is being labeled "aggression" when in fact it's nothing of the sort.


----------



## Doc

Perception is one's reality. For example, if one preceives it to be agggression then it is aggression.


----------



## khawk

As I said, this was the only Schutzhund trial I had ever attended. From the comments and discussions I overheard while I was waiting, there were representatives from five different states, Calif, Nevada, Idaho, Oregon, and Washington at this event. There were German Shepherd dogs, Rotties, Dobermans, a Boxer, and even an American Bulldog, which is an entirely different dog than the English Bulldog. There was even a Dalmatian in the mix. Was it a representative group? I have no idea. I merely reported my experience, which was not such as I would ever want to repeat it. I would expect that any devotee of the sport would assure me that it was not, just as those people on this forum who take part in Schutzhund did. The arrogant, dismissive attitude towards the canine good citizen test was expressed at the event in exactly the same way it was on this forum. I, however, did not see a single dog at that event which could have passed it--just for starters, they would have had to remove their prong collars! Then, of course, add the SchIII dog that attacked my dog during the test, and you might begin to understand the skepticism with which I view these protestations. Oh, and by the way, being bitten by that dog was a little more than perception. It was reality. khawk


----------



## Castlemaid

Odd, I've participated in Schutzhund trials . . . a prong on a dog coming or going, even in the parking lot, OFF the field, before or after the trial, would have been a disqualification . . . 

And many dogs of many breeds can pass a CGC. My spaniel/retriever mix would have passed it if we had accidently walked into a test and didn't even have a clue as to what it was.

Passing a BH, and then moving on to trial . . . not that easy.

But congratulations khawk on having such a steady, well trained dog. That is something to be indeed proud of!


----------



## Liesje

The dissmissive attitude is probably due to the fact that if this was a true trial, people had been preparing for months, maybe years, and showed up focused for competition for THAT trial, not a CGC test.

FWIW my evil aggressive SchH dog is starting his CGC prep Saturday morning (after his bitework lesson Friday night lol). He's already passed the AKC puppy "STAR" which is basically the puppy version of a CGC. I participate in SchH but at the same time refuse to own a dog that cannot pass something as simple as a CGC. Because of my lifestyle, my dogs need to be social and I have high expectations as far as their manners. For others, that is not a priority.


----------



## Branca's Mom

> Originally Posted By: khawk
> 
> 
> I merely reported my experience, which was not such as I would ever want to repeat it. I would expect that any devotee of the sport would assure me that it was not, just as those people on this forum who take part in Schutzhund did.
> 
> <span style="color: #FF0000">Quite honestly, I am not a devotee of the sport.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have seen some really bad stuff in SchH just as I have in other dog sports. It has usually been at training though versus a trial. A trial is normally pretty straight up. I really was interested in hearing when and where this trial was held. I was wondering what judge allowed this to go on??!!??
> </span>
> 
> 
> The arrogant, dismissive attitude towards the canine good citizen test was expressed at the event in exactly the same way it was on this forum. I, however, did not see a single dog at that event which could have passed it--just for starters, they would have had to remove their prong collars!
> 
> <span style="color: #FF0000">SchH dogs do VERY advanced routines on the field without their prong collars!!! Really, most any SchH dog should be able to pass a simple CGC without blinking. Almost any sound dog, with a few days of good training should be able to pass the CGC without any problem really! The only thing that might cause a problem would be the greeting a friendly dog. However, you can do a formal heel, the dogs are a good 4 feet away from each other, with the handlers in between so even this shouldn't be of any issue unless one of the dogs is truly dog aggressive and even then, if doing obedience, it isn't like they have to come nose to nose. </span>
> 
> 
> Then, of course, add the SchIII dog that attacked my dog during the test, and you might begin to understand the skepticism with which I view these protestations. Oh, and by the way, being bitten by that dog was a little more than perception. It was reality. khawk
> 
> 
> <span style="color: #FF0000">Very sorry to hear that you or your dog were bitten, did you take any action as far reporting it?</span>


----------



## scannergirl

I think the club I went to and trained with is pretty representative of what Schutzhund is supposed to be. There is NO out of control aggression and the situation you described would not have happened.
There is a beautiful Malinois at my club, a SchH3. I had told his owner I was in love with him; he had the most beautiful coloring I'd seen on a Mal. I watched him do laser on obedience, a SchH3 track without missing a beat and then we got to the protection phase. Good grief, that animal was like a rocket. Hit hard, hung on and fought hard- really impressive. 
As he was coming off the field, immediately after doing the bitework with everythinhg he had in him, his handler brought him over to see me. I had not had the pleasure of meeting this dog before that moment. The baby doll ended up in my lap (invited, I might add) and showered me with love.
That's what I think of when I think of a Schutzhund dog. The stuff KHawk described would not be tolerated at the club I trained at, and I'd like to think my experience is more the norm. Dogs with unstable temperments do not get bitework trained at the club I went to.


----------



## Liesje

I hope the dog attack was reported. That is absolutely uncalled for at ANY event at ANY level of sport. I don't know what organization this trial was under but the ones I belong to have pretty explicit rules on what happens when something like that occurs.

FWIW I've had two dogs go after each other during a CGC test. They were not even my dogs but it did effect our performance, as the dog I was testing absolutely avoids conflict at all costs and was quite nervous after seeing that.

Dogs are dogs, there are going to be aggressive dogs and bite incidents in any sort of class/trial/test at any level. We should judge the merits of the sport based on the performance overall, not the absolutely worse cases. If that were true, then there could be no sport or test I would participate in with my dogs, as I've seen some shady behaviors during all of them at one point or another.


----------



## Lauri & The Gang

> Originally Posted By: cliftonanderson195% of the breeders in Germany donot have guarantees with puppies they sell.....are they reputable breeders? Why should principles change because the dog is imported, and if the elitest stick to their principles then they shouldn't be ever importing puppies from Germany. Oh what a tangled web we weave......


No, I personally do not consider anyone who does NOT stand behind what they breed to be a responsible breeder.

And I would not purchase a puppy from someone who did not.


----------



## cliffson1

Bravo Laurie, Good for you for standing on your principle....Just like I would not buy anything from a breeder that breeds stock that is watered down from all of the standard.....we must have principles!!


----------



## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: Lauri & The Gang
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: cliftonanderson195% of the breeders in Germany donot have guarantees with puppies they sell.....are they reputable breeders? Why should principles change because the dog is imported, and if the elitest stick to their principles then they shouldn't be ever importing puppies from Germany. Oh what a tangled web we weave......
> 
> 
> 
> No, I personally do not consider anyone who does NOT stand behind what they breed to be a responsible breeder.
> 
> And I would not purchase a puppy from someone who did not.
Click to expand...

IMO, a written warranty, or lack thereof, is not a cut and dried way to determine if the breeder will stand behind the dogs. Some breeders with warranties won't answer the phone if a problem arises with a pup, and the warranty is useless. Other breeders without warranties will bend over backwards to work things out.

The other thing here is huge cultural differences in the way breeders and buyers approach the situation. In Europe, the onus is on the buyer to do their research and be aware that there really is no such thing as a guarantee when buying a living creature. Breeders are trusted to do their best, buyers are expected to do their research and make educated decisions regarding what to purchase and from whom, and then they roll the dice and take their chances. If something goes wrong, many times the breeder will stand behind the dog and provide some form of compensation even though not contracturally required to, provided the customer has proven to be a good one and the relationship between buyer and breeder is a good as well. But to them, the idea of a warranty is ludicrous. It's not like puppies are made in factories, put together by people from manmade parts, where everything can be controlled and anything going wrong is clearly a result of human error.

In America, there is a cultural expectation of warranties for everything. People expect them on their TVs, cars, microwaves, computers and also their puppies. There is also a huge lack of personal responsibility and tendency to want to blame *someone else* (ANYONE else) when things don't go as planned. Often shouting to the high heavens to anyone who will listen, and posting all over the internet, about how horrible a certain breeder/dog is because there was a problem. Often doesn't matter if the problem is anyone's fault, or could have been predicted or prevented, or whether the buyer actually bothered to do any research or not. Far too often people in our society take that route when things go wrong, rather than accept their own responsibility to research and that when dealing with living things there are no guarantees. In that sort of "customer is always right... even when they're not" climate, warranties help protect not only the buyer but also the breeder. And frankly, US breeders have to provide them simply because US buyers demand them and won't consider a pup without a warranty. Buyers will take a written warranty from a breeder not likely to honor it over a handshake agreement from an ethical, responsible person most any day.

There is also an additional benefit of geography there. European countries are a much smaller area with a greater concentration of dogs and dog people in that smaller space, so many buyers can go into the situation better informed, often having seen the dogs, relatives, previous progeny, and in many cases being very familiar with them, so much of the unknown factors that exist are removed from the equation compared to the US where people are often buying pups sight unseen, from dogs they've never met bred by breeders they've never met.


----------



## cliffson1

Khawk, I know just how you feel....when I showed my puppy at an AKC match in Cherry Hill, NJ. you could hear the people commenting about how that was a German Dog and this type of dog is aggressive, has to live in a kennel, wouldn't trust their kids around one as an adult. She was a West Showline puppy and the judge gave her second out of three but told me she was a nice puppy but as a German dog she will never win in the "breed" ring in America. All the time my puppy was wagging her tail and greeting everybody. This is the same puppy that took VP-2 out of 10 puppies at the Mid East regional show under Herr Leonard Schweikert. The irony is at the AKC match many people came up to me and said that my puppy was the way they remembered German Shepherds when they grew up....but the snobs felt she was a viscious dog to be.....Yep Khawk I have been in your shoes.


----------



## Branca's Mom

This thread sure has taken a few twists and turns... 

You know, I have been very lucky taking my dogs into the AKC rings. I have had almost 100% acceptance of my working line dogs. I have had one OTCH handler after another come up and tell me that if all GSD's were like this, they wouldn't have moved over to BC's or Goldens. Most ask where did they come from, what lines etc etc. They can't get over the stable temperament and biddability (sp?) of my dogs. 

There is a LOT to learn about lines, health, etc etc so I can understand why a newbie is confused. Many people start off with a BYB dog, THEN do their research and later end up with another dog from a breeder later on. 

Personal responsibility? Whats that???? LOL


----------



## Liesje

Tammy, I've had that too. We stand out but the owners/handlers themselves have given us nice comments. Maybe a weird look here or there from Am line people that have their own agendas and will give you stink eye no matter what, but much more often I've had a complete stranger come up to me and whisper "now THAT is a German Shepherd dog!" I had Kenya with me at the Sieger Show (the cookie cutter German show lines, she stands out like a sore thumb) and the person who handled Nikon saw me walking her around and came over to rave about my "cute bitch". When we did her herding instinct, the judge (who I believe owns and breeds Am lines) commented on her perfect size and condition.


----------



## SouthernThistle

> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> 
> IMO, a written warranty, or lack thereof, is not a cut and dried way to determine if the breeder will stand behind the dogs. Some breeders with warranties won't answer the phone if a problem arises with a pup, and the warranty is useless. Other breeders without warranties will bend over backwards to work things out.


Exactly. It's subjective when it comes to written versus non-written and responsible versus irresponsible breeders.

I purchased a Labrador Retriever from a breeder with OFA'd parents (dad was titled, mom was a service dog). The breeder did not have a written guarantee, but to this day, I am still in contact with the breeder, stop by her place for random visits (she has an open door policy), and couldn't have been more pleased with my Lab (now competing in Field Trials with my uncle in Montana....and winning). 

I have a coworker that purchased a Cocker Spaniel from a breeder with health checked parents, etc. The breeder did have a written contract. The dog ended up with some sort of congenital health issues (I don't know Cockers, but it did include a heart murmur), and the coworker never heard back from the breeder - e-mails, phone calls, certified letter, etc. 

I'd think the Lab breeder was responsible (non-written contract), and the Cocker breeder (written contract)...not so much.


----------



## Doc

To hear you Schutzhund folks talk perhaps it is you that have Golden Retrievers in German shepherd coats. Give me a break. You blindness to the issues associated with nervy/aggressive Schutzhund dogs is troublesome. 

Even Father Max admitted the inherent problem with Thuringian bloodlines when he selected breeding dogs from the Krone Kennels. The only thing different today from then is that today, no one admits that there is a problem.


----------



## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: Doc. Give me a break. You blindness to the issues associated with nervy/aggressive Schutzhund dogs is troublesome.


How is people who have extensive knowledge and first hand experience with a subject pointing out that certain things are not the norm being blind? Sure there are nervy SchH dogs. Just as there are nervy dogs in every other subset of the canine population, in every single breed or mix thereof. Even though SchH trianing and titling will most often weed out the nervy dogs, it doesn't always work that way and no one is denying that they exist. But the norm? Eh...no.


----------



## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: DocTo hear you Schutzhund folks talk perhaps it is you that have Golden Retrievers in German shepherd coats.


Hardly. A GR isn't likely to be able to do SchH.









Rather, the large majority of us "Schutzhund folks" have quite well rounded GSDs. Dogs who are able to work, including showing aggression when the situation calls for it, and who are also sound, stable, approachable dogs when appropriate as well.


----------



## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: DocTo hear you Schutzhund folks talk perhaps it is you that have Golden Retrievers in German shepherd coats.


Hey I've seen many Goldens with higher drive than a lot of today's GSDs...









(and I can say that b/c I have a sometimes nervy, lower drive working line GSD)


----------



## Doc

I'm not sure how it is, but it appears to me that some people in here always have an answer and it is always right while others speak the truth about their experiences and are blasted from the peanut gallery about how that would never happen if blah blah blah ...

I have no reason to doubt anyone's experience in here. But to imply and or indicate that a particular incident did not happen because MY dog this and MY dog that blah blah blah and My club this and MY club that ..... is a bunch of BS.

It is this "I am right and because you are not with me you are wrong" attitude that has and will continue to ruin the German shepherd breed. I am neither right all the time or wrong all the time and I will admit that. And a large percentage of the time I say things just to piss the "Kool-Aid drinking cult' off in here. Closed minded people will never get past their blindness.


----------



## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: DocI'm not sure how it is, but it appears to me that some people in here always have an answer and it is always right while others speak the truth about their experiences and are blasted from the peanut gallery about how that would never happen if blah blah blah ...
> 
> I have no reason to doubt anyone's experience in here. But to imply and or indicate that a particular incident did not happen because MY dog this and MY dog that blah blah blah and My club this and MY club that ..... is a bunch of BS.



I don't see where anyone was saying any incident didn't happen.

I do see a lot of people pointing out that such incidents are not the norm, and backing it up with their own first hand experience and real life examples.

I also see people pointing out possible alternative explanations for events, again using their own actual experiences. The uninitiated into any venue can be prone to making assumptions or inferences based on misunderstanding and misinterpretation. Again, no one is saying that is the case, only that is is possibly the case and again, using their own experiece as examples to shed light on other possible reasons.

But if you think that is BS, of course you're entitled to that opinion.




> Originally Posted By: DocClosed minded people will never get past their blindness.


Indeed. I'd say that goes for those on all sides of the any issue.


----------



## Branca's Mom

I hope I didn't imply that I didn't believe it didn't happen...?? It very well could have happened exactly as described. I was however wondering what judge allowed this!!

If all this did happen, it is a real shame and certainly not the norm from what I have seen in my own experience. I went to my first SchH event/trial over in Europe almost 20 years ago. < BIG-GULP > Since then, I dare say I have been to dozens of trials, from local trials with about 5 dogs entered to regionals, several national events and to the Worlds. Perhaps I have been lucky, but have never once seen anything at a trial like this person described. I have seen some strange stuff, but it's hit and miss, certainly not this many things at one trial.... 

I think possibly, just possibly the person above did not completely understand what they were seeing, that is my best guess and the fact that they had to wait, and had to pay again probably perturbed them. And perhaps the people were not nearly as friendly as they could have been added to the bad memories. It is a shame that many people in the sport don't welcome newcomers but that is often the case I am afraid, this was probably not specific to this woman.

In any case, this shouldn't have happened and it does look bad when things like this get repeated if people read it and believe this is what schH is all about. I am not a SchH devotee, LOL, not by any means, but I do think that titling breeding stock is important for the future of our breed. THAT I do believe in!!


----------



## Deejays_Owner

*** Post removed by Admin***


----------



## Doc

Ok, I have to answer the orignal OP's question. And I will answer it because I am qualified to answer it - not based on hearsay, gossip or editorials about her German shepherds.

I am speaking from factual, real experiences and conversations dealing with this breeder.

Yes, I have factual information about this breeder. I suspect there are only a very few others in here that have had contact with her but they will certainly voice their opinion about her dogs.


----------



## OkieAmazon

I have NEVER seen a prong collar allowed on/near a trial field. Fur savers ONLY. Something was amiss here.


----------



## angelaw

same here. heck I had hardy's county tag on his fur saver as I was going on the field. didn't know you couldn't have that either. had to borrow someone else's fur saver, lol


----------



## Chris Wild

Prong collars are absolutely NOT allowed in SchH trials. The only collar allowed is a dead ring chain collar (choke or fur saver). Even flat leather and nylon are not allowed.

In fact, in recent years prongs (and ecollars) have not been allowed anywhere on the trial grounds while the trial is going on and using one, even to take your dog on a potty walk or do a little prep work in the parking lot, has been grounds for disqualification from the trial.


----------



## scannergirl

> Originally Posted By: DocI'm not sure how it is, but it appears to me that some people in here always have an answer and it is always right while others speak the truth about their experiences and are blasted from the peanut gallery about how that would never happen if blah blah blah ...
> 
> I have no reason to doubt anyone's experience in here. But to imply and or indicate that a particular incident did not happen because MY dog this and MY dog that blah blah blah and My club this and MY club that ..... is a bunch of BS.
> 
> It is this "I am right and because you are not with me you are wrong" attitude that has and will continue to ruin the German shepherd breed. I am neither right all the time or wrong all the time and I will admit that. *And a large percentage of the time I say things just to piss the "Kool-Aid drinking cult' off in here.* Closed minded people will never get past their blindness.


Nobody said it didn't happen, Doc. 
Plenty of people said it SHOULDN'T have happened, and they were sorry it happened. And people said they did not think the sport of Schutzhund should be judged on this experience, because it wasn't the norm.
I think you were very honest about saying things just to piss people off. But what's the point in that? Are you *trying* to alienate people?








If you're trying to make a point you aren't being very effective by being so condescending.


----------



## Liesje

Doc you are kind of preaching to the choir, at least for me since I have three dogs all totally different. One group of people wants to know why I'd get one dog and the other group of people wants to know why I'd get the other dog, both groups think my heart dog mutt is ridiculous. The SchH people say I can't participate in other dog sports until my dog is X-age and has the "right foundation" and the other sport people think that is bullox since there are a fair number of SchH3 dogs who are also titled in half a dozen other sports (yes I am intentionally generalizing here).

At the end of the day I do whatever the **** I want to do with my dogs because they are mine and we will do as we please irregardless of line, size, type, pedigree, coat, or color.

What I won't do is attend a single event or a few sessions of training and then write off 1/3 of the breed and their owners and trainers based on a single incident or making perceptions about something I really didn't understand.

I only speak for myself but I have yet to find a dog sport/activity that I didn't think looked fun and enriching for the dog and owner (rally, obedience, dog sport, schutzhund, dock diving, tracking, sheep herding, weight pull, agility, flyball, pet assisted therapy, CGC training....to name a few).

I do think it's important for breeders to do *something* with their dog(s), not that the titles themselves are all I care about, but the process of training and earning those reveals what the breeder should know about the dog before evaluating it for breeding. If I looked at how I described Kenya when I first got her and how I would describe her now it would be very, very different. I understand more about her, the breed, and dogs in general just going through the process of training and testing a dog. I know what I'd really be looking for if I ever decided to breed dogs.


----------



## Doc

The point is you all sing the same song and fail to knowledge another world exists. I am not trying to alienate anyone. I haven't called anyone an unethical breeder, a BYB, a Puppymill, etc. But the Cult in here welcomed me with those labels. And then accused me of having alternative motives for being here. And when I defended a question I asked, I get the room monitor sending me a "WARNING" that I am "out of line". And then most recently had my credibility questioned.

I am not a 20 twenty something, thirty something, or forty something something that has had a handful of German shepherd dogs. Yet in here all I hear is the only real GSD has the power to knock down and grip and bite til their teeth fall out or to their death should their "off switch" fails. And believe it or not, from a historical aspect, that kind of German shepherd dog was created long after the herding, working German shepherd. Even in the 60's, a German shepherd was both.

And now, because of extremes on both ends of the spectrum, we have lost what a German shepherd was bred to be - not just a knock down grip until death dog nor one that prances around a show ring. But rather a truly versatile dog that excels at both.

Call me old school, call me an old fogie, call me a pain in one's posterior but those in here who fail to recognize the demise of this breed need someone to remind them that there were German shepherds long before they got their specialized one dimensional version of a watered down representative of this breed. 

And that is not condescending, that is the truth.


----------



## Liesje

Doc, no disrespect, but what IS a GSD to you then? Are you against all showing, sports, and titles? How do YOU determine what you breed, which you hold back, etc?

There are many many people on this board with dogs that excel in multiple areas, so again you are preaching to the choir. Some members on this board have dogs V-rated in show AND sport.


----------



## Doc

I am not against any showing, sports, titles, herding, obedience, SAR, service, brace and balance, therapy, wheelchair, blood detection, stroke monitor, etc. or whatever else there is out there. This is a versitile breed where any/all that is done by this breed is valuable.

I am against specialized dogs who are extremely good/great in one aspect of work. Likewise, I am against specialized dogs that are only good/great in the show ring. 

My ideal of a real German shepherd is a dog that is versitile and good at many things. Not just mastering one challenge but rather very good at many and master of none. That's versitility and something I see that is gone from this breed.

Somethings else that I see that is wrong in my opinion. Why do certain dog owners place a higher value on certain aspects or areas of work/service. It comes across as if Obedience Titles are for those German shepherds that can not cut the grade in anything else or that service dogs are nice but they are not as cool/valuable as Sch!'s. To think that one dog is far superior just because they can run, grip and bite when compared to one that spends his/her life escorting the blind or helping wheelchair folks is very bothersome to me.

What is a GSD to me? It is a versatile dog that can do many different things very well but doesn't specialize in any one thing in particular with impeccable health and temperament that will protect his /her family to death if need be.


----------



## Liesje

Some titles just *are* more difficult to attain. That's not a put-down on anyone else, it's just a fact. For example, the GSDCA gives out Performance Awards of Merit to dogs that have attained the highest level of one sport and titled in two others BUT the Rally Excellent (RE) is not recognized in the "highest level" category because even though you need three Qs to title, the RE is easier to attain than a BH or FO, which are the lowest levels in some other sports. Having trained for and/or competed in all three, I have to agree.

The value in the title is not the title itself but the amount of work it took to get there and what was learned about the dog along the way. I do not believe a CGC tests a dog's obedience and temperament at the same level as a BH. My "problem dog" who we've always struggled with as far as even the most basic levels of obedience has achieved a CGC twice, and my other dog who I would not consider sound enough temperament for breeding has passed it three times. Those titles/certificates are great achievements for the dogs and their owners but are not suitable for and were never intended to test breedworthiness, IMO.

I have my own gripes about certain aspects of SchH but so far I've found nothing that comes close to developing and tested the aspects of a GSD that make him a GSD.

FWIW SchH *is* versatility. What other sport involves tracking, obedience, and protection (not to mention the "traffic test" and the "endurance test") and tests a dog's intelligence, courage, soundness, physical condition, drive, and natural instincts like SchH? Really the only thing I can think of that comes close is HGH-level herding which is basically unheard of in this country.

I have never seen anyone on this forum or in real life say that a SchH dog is more "valuable" than a working service dog.


----------



## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: LiesjeSome titles just *are* more difficult to attain. That's not a put-down on anyone else, it's just a fact. For example, the GSDCA gives out Performance Awards of Merit to dogs that have attained the highest level of one sport and titled in two others BUT the Rally Excellent (RE) is not recognized in the "highest level" category because even though you need three Qs to title, the RE is easier to attain than a BH or FO, which are the lowest levels in some other sports. Having trained for and/or competed in all three, I have to agree.
> 
> The value in the title is not the title itself but the amount of work it took to get there and what was learned about the dog along the way. I do not believe a CGC tests a dog's obedience and temperament at the same level as a BH. My "problem dog" who we've always struggled with as far as even the most basic levels of obedience has achieved a CGC twice, and my other dog who I would not consider sound enough temperament for breeding has passed it three times. Those titles/certificates are great achievements for the dogs and their owners but are not suitable for and were never intended to test breedworthiness, IMO.


Exactly. While people will argue forever about what titles should be sufficient for breeding, the fact remains that no matter how you look at it, some are much more difficult to attain than others.

Unfortunately, it seems most who will claim a title is worthless, or that they are all created equal, tend to be those who haven't actually trained any dogs to that level so frankly, they don't know what they're talking about either in terms of the level of training required, the sort of temperament required, or what is required of the dog to achieve that level. And since someone who's done it and someone who hasn't are coming from such extremely different perspectives and levels of understanding, there often is no common ground to reach any sort of understanding. 

Likewise, people who claim they really know the ins and outs of their dogs temperament, nerves and everything else just by living with them in everyday life, and therefore their dog is a good breeding candidate aren't just missing the idea that a GSD should be a working dog, they are missing out on just how much more is learned about the dog by going through a thorough, versitile training program to achieve a title. But again, because they've never experienced that, they can't fathom how much more about the dog can be learned, and the value in learning it, as compared to just playing ball, going to the pet store, getting a CGC and hanging out at home.

And I'm not directing that at any one person, in this thread or otherwise, just again speaking from experience and multiple different discussions of the topic.



> Originally Posted By: Liesje
> I have my own gripes about certain aspects of SchH but so far I've found nothing that comes close to developing and tested the aspects of a GSD that make him a GSD.


That being why it has been required for breeding since very early in the history of the breed... including for the old style dogs so many remember fondly. Those wonderful dogs of the olden days certainly weren't 5, 10, 20 generations removed from stock that proved itself on the field.

While I do agree that some dogs and breeders and bloodlines on all sides of the fence have become too specialized in some areas as things have become more about sport and less about testing dogs, the essence of the test, and most importantly what is learned about the dog along the way, remains very valuable.



> Originally Posted By: Liesje
> 
> FWIW SchH *is* versatility. What other sport involves tracking, obedience, and protection (not to mention the "traffic test" and the "endurance test") and tests a dog's intelligence, courage, soundness, physical condition, drive, and natural instincts like SchH? Really the only thing I can think of that comes close is HGH-level herding which is basically unheard of in this country.


Yup. Yet so often many people seem to focus on the evil "you're training dogs to bite" or think that is all that matters.











> Originally Posted By: Liesje
> I have never seen anyone on this forum or in real life say that a SchH dog is more "valuable" than a working service dog.


Nor have I. I think many people confuse folks saying certain types of work are more valuable from a *breed test* standpoint to mean the dog is more valuable. And that's not the case. Some forms of training are more valuable in testing breeding stock for the simple reason that they require a skillset that is both more varied and more precise, test a wider range of temperamental traits, put the dog under a higher level of stress to see how he copes, etc.... Thus more is learned about the dog because more varied aspects of his temperament are uncovered and in greater detail, giving the breeder more information to go by in terms of deciding if that dog is suitable for breeding, and with regard to finding the best mate for the dog.

But in terms of the value that the dog has to it's owner, they're all priceless. A SchH dog isn't more valuable than a child's pet, a police dog isn't more valuable than a service dog. In terms of value to society and their owners, those who have the most positive impact on the quality of life of the people surrounding them take the highest honors, regardless of what form that impact has.


----------



## trudy

This is one of the most interesting and informative topic. It has jumped around some but the info and respect shown to one another is great. Just as the breed is supposed to be versatile, and able to do many things it stands to reason that people want them for many purposes. We should all strive to show others that the breed is trustworthy, stable, healthy and yes beautiful. We will all serve the breed well if we put aside our differences and all worked toward this. 

The breed may have some extremes one way or another but perhaps we could all try to meet in the middle and try for the best before we become the breed to ban.


----------



## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: trudy
> The breed may have some extremes one way or another but perhaps we could all try to meet in the middle and try for the best before we become the breed to ban.


I agree with the first part but I don't think that either camp, polarized as they may seem, has anything to do with GSDs being banned. I'm not sure what you mean by that.


----------



## trudy

I mean the breed ban folks won't stand a chance with a large united front, and if everyone could agree health, temperment, stability are most important we could agree to disagree on other things. I hope those things are the most important to the majority.


----------



## Deejays_Owner

I would love to see some pictures of the dogs that are going to save this breed?


----------



## luvu2

I like Doc.

I understand now where he is coming from. I admired that he has stayed on this board to help balance out the bias.


----------



## GypSadie

Hi,
I am a new member with very large GSD, and from what I read here, your dogs sound very large also. It seems this website has more members who like the smaller GSD, where as I prefer the larger ones. I looked at Roylair's website and wondered if you can tell me, seeing you have dogs from them, how large are your Shepherds. Mine are 135lbs. each and have no joint problems. I purchased them from a breeder who was bashed by this website and that is the reason I joined, so I can defend my "beauties". I purchased them from Heritage Kennels in Palos Hills, and yes I agree that the kennels is not the cleanest, but the breeder is very good hearted and loves all her dogs dearly. I would purchase dogs from her again when the time comes, if she is still in business as she is getting up in the years. Heritage Kennels has been breeding since 1905 (the breeders mother started the kennel). In case she is no longer around when the time comes, I would like to buy from a breeder who breeds the larger dog, such as Royalair and thought you could tell me about them. Thanks, and thanks for liking the old fashioned large Shepherds.


----------



## WiscTiger

Gyps, there is a thing called the breed standard. If you want dogs that large that is your choice, but hte breed was not originated to be have dogs that large, hence the breed standard.
GSD breed Standard,Size, Proportion, Substance
The desired height for males at the top of the highest point of the shoulder blade is 24 to 26 inches; and for bitches, 22 to 24 inches.
So typically bitches 65-70 lbs males in the range of 80 - 100 lbs MAX.

There are lots of breeds out there that are designed to be large, St.Bernards, Standard:Ranging in size from 25½ to 27½ inches tall at the shoulder and 130 to 180 pounds. 

Newfoundland, Breed Standard Ranging in size from 26 to 28 inches tall at the shoulder and 100 to 150 pounds. 

Great Pyrenees standard only calls for males at 100 lbs.

So if you enjoy your 130 dog, so be it, just don't expect real GSD people to want to buy one.


----------



## Lauri & The Gang

> Originally Posted By: GypsHi,
> I am a new member with very large GSD, and from what I read here, your dogs sound very large also. It seems this website has more members who like the smaller GSD, where as I prefer the larger ones.


It has nothing to do with whether we like our dogs large or small - it has to do with the fact that we, as responsible purchasers, want to have a German Shepherd that conforms to the Breed Standard.


----------



## darylehret

and can at least jump over a 4 foot hurdle, or make it over an a-frame.


----------



## Castlemaid

And trot 20 km at your side as you ride a bike at an average speed of 13km/h (12.5 miles at 8mph).


----------



## gsdsrule

Bravo! The last time I went to a GSD show, I was appalled. Steeply sloping hindquarters, wobbly hind legs, just strange looking dogs. Not a one of them look like they could trot and run 5 miles behind the truck. Not the GSD I remember. I gather the health of these "new fangled" dogs is not so good either. 

The hunch back Hyena look turns me off too.


----------



## wolfstraum

I really don't think there were GSDs in the USA in 1905............the breed was in it's infancy in Germany at that time.

We love the breed and that breed has parameters which are defined by a standard....right now in Germany, they are cracking down on oversized dogs...if someone dose't like the dogs bred to breed standard then I am puzzled that they want a dog of the breed....it is like buying a chevrolet truck, and replacing the parts with Fords....just buy a Ford....

Lee


----------



## RubyTuesday

> Quote:and can at least jump over a 4 foot hurdle, or make it over an a-frame.





> Quote:And trot 20 km at your side as you ride a bike at an average speed of 13km/h (12.5 miles at 8mph).


A physically fit GSD, regardless of size, should be able to do either of these things. 

Over sized GSDs have been present in the breed from the beginning. They aren't recent. I doubt they'll go away. Given how versatile the GSD is, it makes sense that there are a wide range of sizes. The relatively recent enforcement of the size standard might eliminate larger GSDs from working lines, but I don't think it will ultimately help the breed. 

I am amazed that this single issue resonates so strongly with people given the myriad health & temperament problems threatening the breed. Yeah, I like mine big...specifically tall & lean, but I'm more concerned with temperament, personality, health & longevity. Mine are big GSDs, yes, but they *are* GSDs, _real_ GSDs, regardless of others' opinions of them. 



> Quote:if someone dose't like the dogs bred to breed standard then I am puzzled that they want a dog of the breed....


People want long haired Weims & Whippets, too. Or lc GSDs for that matter. (I prefer LC, tho' both of mine are stock coats). In fact the GSD standard originally permitted lc & white GSDs until they were summarily dismissed from the breed. The standard as written didn't mean much to those people & frankly their political machinations don't mean much to me.


----------



## darylehret

I've had an particular oversized female around 80lbs., but you can better believe she was faster and more agile than most dogs of medium size. Still a far cry less than 120lbs. (which is 50% heavier!), which I seriously doubt could accomplish those feats with any relative ease. And keep in mind the a-frame has replaced what once was a 8 foot vertical wall. Just as politics and preference of the times has changed the standard for coat color or length, so it has also in performance standards. Sure, it doesn't make it right, but it's better than total blatant disregard for standards, and kidding yourself about performance potential. Could a 7 year old 120lb. dog do this?> http://www.ehretgsd.com/kody4800.wmv


----------



## cliffson1

Ruby Tuesday, I think your view on this is absolutely correct. There has to be diversity in the breed because the breed is comprised of four types that all had different dimensions. The performance of the breed has to be the constant and the emphasis. Extremes in any direction will alter performance(like 30 inch shepherd or 140 lb shepherd), but there are dogs that are bigger or smaller that excel in the work because of their mental aspect. They certaily should not be eliminated; because they excel at the work and the physical handicaps dont distract from the work. I have a 27 inch male at 20 months that can jump like a deer and is very atheletic. He is tall and rangy and is very effective in the work...is he pretty?...I think not, but if pretty was judged on performance he would be in the ribbons(smile). 
Daryl, that is nice example of athlectic dog, and the physical type, people should look to to bring more working structure to the breed. I didn't measure her length of stifle or croup, I saw a dog that physically manifests the traits the breed should have(and obviously the mental traits to attempt the maneuver).


----------



## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: DarylEhret and kidding yourself about performance potential.


That's what pisses me off about these breeders. I don't care about exact height and weight or whatever, but show me 120+lb dogs that are out their working and competing! Unless the breeder has examples, that's just lying. Maybe some people want a 120lb pet, but then call a spade a spade, not all this BS about "what the GSD used to be". As far as I know the GSD has always been a herding, law enforcement, SchH dog.



> Quote:German Shepherd Breeder of "Quality" not "Quantity"


That always strikes me as ironic when it's size this, size that and no indication of any high level performance titles or dogs that are actually working in the field.


----------



## Doc

Wow, I'm gone for weeks and come back to find the "war" is still raging on. From a historical perspective - no matter what camp you fall into now - the dog Max fell in love with while sitting on a cliff in Germany was a dog hearding sheep - period. Not a dog trained/manipulated into performing tasks created by a overbearing, strong-willed person **** bent on "creating" a circus for dogs to perform in. Read your history. Max did not create the hearding dog he fell in love with. And it certainly didn't pass any test to see if it could bite and hang on - all of that came later. And because the owners of the hearding shepherds were rural, farm type people that had dogs to work - real work on the farm - and didn't have time to become in the political aspects of breeding - that aspect was pushed aside and lost in favor of a smaller dog with a different purpose.

So I'm not sure Max's "creation" was built upon a single functional dog. Like Cliff said, Max tried - but never suceeded in breeding a utilitarian German shepherd. Those dogs came from other breeders - namely in the Barvaria region where Max finally moved. Horand was a useless dog, his only function was to be Max's pet. And the only reason Horand is listed as the first German Shepherd in the registry is - guess what - he was Max's dog!

One needs to study the history of the breed if they are going to use size and purpose to support their argument. And to say the German shepherd was never a big dog is historically wrong. What is right is that the larger German shepherds were eliminated from the official registry by Max - although he did change his mind on the acceptable size. That does not, in any way, mean that there were no large German shepherds around still working in the rural areas of Germany.

When you add politics into the equation, you can clearly see why the German shepherd has evolved into it's present form - a form that not everyone is in favor of. IMO the German shepherd dog has been in a steady decline for the past 30 years. And is now to a point that the true function and purpose of the dog has been segregated to the point of no return. The arguments that "your German shepherd isn't any good because it can't climb, and your German shepherd isn't any good because it's pasterns aren't right, and you German shepherd isn't any good because it is too tall or weighs too much" has ruined the breed that at one time could do anything and everything.

It is a distrubing that the Standar dominates regardless of the dog. A dog should be measured on it's own merits particularly height and weight which should be based on proportions not numbers.


----------



## Deejays_Owner

Great marketing for the "old fashioned" "over-sized" Shepherds.


----------



## SunCzarina

My 2 cents from having a dog that was bred to be oversize. His brain was exceptional. He excelled at schh. His body however was crap, he had most of the bizarre diseases that occasionally come here. At 9 years old, he could no longer go up the stairs without help, nor could he get himself into my car. I had to put him down at barely 10 years old becuase his whole body just gave up on hauling his big butt around.


----------



## Doc

Not marketing, just the facts. If I wanted to market them, I would plaster my kennel name and dogs all over my page like everyone else. Read the history of the German shepherd dog and try to be open minded and learn something.


----------



## khawk

ok, here goes again. Doc is right on with his history. He's done his homework. His experience has given him one viewpoint on the breed. Mine has given me a similiar viewpoint. I started with German Shepherds myself over 40 years ago. My family had owned and worked--not Schutzhund, real life stock work--Shepherds since my great aunt, the ambulance driver in WWI brought the first family Shepherd back in 1918. My first experience with Search and Rescue was with a Shepherd. I worked Shepherds on cattle, and used them to track lost and strayed cattle and horses as well as to herd cattle. I trained my first service dog (not Schutzhund again, but a real service dog) almost thirty years ago, for my mother after a number of years spent, among other things, raising pups to become guide dogs for the blind. I have learned (the hard way) to look for candidates for such work among dogs that are calm, steady, thoughtful and accommodating. For brace-balance and wheelchair aide work I prefer dogs on the larger side of the breed standard and even somewhat over. Brace-balance dogs do sometimes need to be taller than the norm and they do need a certain degree of physical strength. Larger German Shepherd dogs of the type bred by Doc and Robin, or Royalair meet the size and strength requirement. These dogs tend to be sounder and longer lived than dogs of other breeds who have the kind of size required, and they have a longer working life. They have less problems with hip dysplasia and less cardio than Swiss Mtn dogs, St Bernards, or Great Danes, just for example, and they are more temperamentally suited to the work than most individuals of these other breeds, which is why I prefer the so-called 'over-standard' gsds for the work. I do not care whether their coat type is short stock, stock, long stock or long coat. I do not care what color they are. In my view, all good dogs are a good color as long as that color does not come with health issues. I do not accept that Schutzhund dogs are more valuable than real service dogs. I do not accept that dogs bred for the sport of Schutzhund are inherently more valuable for breeding than dogs of different skill sets when those skills are proven. They ARE more valuable in the breeding of more Schutzhund dogs. I do believe that dogs who have proven themselves to be good to great real service dogs are the best progenitors of real service dogs. Because most working service dogs are spayed or neutered, that leaves service dog people with a very small gene pool and I am grateful that people like Robin and Doc continue to provide me and others like me with dogs which are physically sound and temperamentally suited for service work. Dogs bred with drives suited for Schutzhund work require more exercise than a family struggling with a child with medical issues or a handicapped person can readily provide. They tend to be more dominant in personality than many of the dogs labelled old-fashioned or classic gsds, and are problematic for handicapped adults or sick children to adequately lead. They tend to lack the necessary patience for dealing with people with infirmities or less than stellar leadership, and few of them are willing to do the kind of waiting and watching which is the hallmark of the service dog's life. I understand that those of you who favor the Thuringian/Schutzhund type of dog will be unwilling to admit that your type of dog is not perfect at all things. I would hope that you would have the honesty and integrity to admit it, although many posters to this forum would lead me to believe otherwise. So-called oversized German Shepherds have always had a place in the breed, whether dealing with especially large breeds of sheep, cattle, or today, doing work as brace-balance dogs especially and wheelchair aide work. You do not have to take part in this kind of work. No one is asking you to. But please, stop bashing the few breeders who are trying so hard to breed good dogs to fill this niche and in the process providing sound, appropriate pets to people who prefer a more moderate dog than the typical Schutzhund breeding provides.


----------



## Liesje

I don't dispute Doc's history or general assessments but just how some people say one thing and do another.


----------



## cliffson1

Khawk, I agree with much of what you say and Anne's post(Vandal) on another thread thoroughly dissects the change of SCH. However, the breed was put togther to be a guard dog whether it was of sheep or people. If you go to the earliest standards of this breed it STILL emphasizes the dog's need to be able to possess the qualities that suit this aspect. So, I have no problem with service dogs and any well bred GS with good nerves can be trained to be a good service dog. But the breed must possess nerve, courage, and should be fearless in its work. This is why the dog rose to prominence as a herding dog, seeing eye dog, or police/military dog.


----------



## wolfstraum

IMO - one of the biggest problems of the breed is the mass demand for "just a pet" and a lack of willingness/ability of people to buy a puppy from a breeder who is responsible. Too many "breeders" have stepped up and filled that market demand to the detriment of the breed. 

And the sport breeding for the sake of sport or for money and greed, without concern or the knowledge or objectivity to produce balance in drives and character - lots of sucessful "top sport" dogs who can be conditioned but are not really what they appear to be because they are in the hands of a trainer who has experience enough to hide their flaws. Then those are bred. Unfortunately just too many people out there and too little integrity in breeding. Both in breeding and behavior towards their buyers and peers.

Lee


----------



## SunCzarina

To add to Lee's thoughts, I can't count how many people who don't understand the point of health/hip certs and titles. 'I just want a pet so that stuff doesn't matter', '1200 is way too much for a dog!' Then they end up with a dog who's not capable of doing anything but sitting in the yard barking at everyone who goes past and has a ton of health problems!

I'm not going to rant but our supersize me culture has a lot to do with why people want a dog so huge. Rex was a mess healthwise but I always had people telling me proudly how much bigger their so-and-so's german shepherd was. Why? As a 105lb woman (yea I lost 5 more of those twin pounds!), I don't want a dog who's bigger than me, I want one who's 30lbs smaller and I still have trouble trying to wrangle him into heel position!


----------



## khawk

cliftonanderson1, I would posit that it is not necessary to have high drives or Schutzhund training to show nerve. A working cattle dog who has to go into the brush after a nasty old cow with her calf who doesn't want to get up and leave her shady nook has to have courage--those old cows don't like being disturbed and many of them have horns, and they weigh around a thousand pounds. It is easier, safer and faster for the dogs to bust them out of the brush than it is for a person, even one mounted on a horse or on an atv. They often come out of the brush after the dog very close to breathing fire. 

I have had dogs take on cougars twice over the years (and I defy anyone to say that didn't take courage) and put them to route to save people and livestock. My guide dog Mom once held off a knife weilding crazy who broke into my house long enough (and effectively enough) for me to call the cops and get (safely) out of the house. My first search and rescue dog stopped 4 burglaries in his life (two at the neighbors, one where I lived and worked) and was shot stopping the fourth when I loaned him to a friend. The 2 at the neighbors (they were really more home invasion style) happened after he was shot. Three of the occasions included 2 assailants, not one. 

None of these dogs could have succeeded at Schutzhund. They were quiet, thoughtful real world working dogs who did not bite people for fun and while they were hard working dogs, they would/could never have been considered 'high' drive dogs. My cattle working, livestock tracking, search and rescue (two saves of hikers in the wilderness a year apart) burglar stopping dog was, in fact, called a 'couch potato' by Schutzhund trainers who also asserted that he was worthless and useless because he didn't like being agitated and had no use for attacking strangers in weird suits. 
In yet another real world situation, my calm, 'thinking' low-drive, couch potato first wheelchair aide dog successfully routed a group of young men when Pat's SchIII internationally titled dog ran around madly looking for the bad guy behind the blind--completely ignoring the real life young men casing her van. I have, I think, a well-earned skepticism for how Schutzhund people measure courage and have learned a distince aversion for their standards over the years.
I dislike the judgemental way so many of them cut down other people's dogs when those dogs are different from theirs and I would disagree that breeding a quality pet dog is somehow wrong or that if shouldn't be done. Pet dogs are the foundation and backbone of all dog breeds, and without pet people and their dogs those of us with more esoteric pursuits would find ourselves having difficulties getting food, equipment, training and many other necessities of dog sport and service. If we do not take the time to cultivate and educate and befriend pet dog people, in the difficult days ahead, when we are under attack from PETA people and those who would force mandatory spay/neuter laws on us along with breed specific legislation, we may find ourselves searching fruitlessly for a place where we can live with our beloved dogs without discrimination. 
This forum has much valuable information to impart and it can serve the purpose of bringing us all together and uniting us--if we use it so. Bias towards one type of Shepherd alone while bashing a type of dog preferred by other people, sometimes for whimsical reasons, other times for reasons grounded in very real and reasonable purposes, does not bring us together. Let us emphasize our common causes and celebrate the dogs who have brought us here. khawk


----------



## darylehret

The problem with conformation standards, is they seem to take precedence over working standards, as conformation can inherently never provide an accurate basis for the measurement of performance and temperament.

I'm not biased toward one type of shepherd (as long as there's enough of the type I favor), nor could care less about a conformation standard really, in regards to height, weight, and angulation. And I agree a little variety in characteristics is necessary for the longevety of the breed, and it's suitability to a wide array of jobs. If you breed select too narrowly in matters of conformation, with little margin, you are inadvertently selecting against performance potentials of particular individuals at the same time. Sought for traits them become rarer, and seldom regained in the lines.

In broader terms, if you overselect toward one extreme, you are eliminating the potential merits of the other. Our current standard is perhaps a modest 22 lb. variable range for each gender (the median seems always near the upper limit though), and the height variation is a very narrow (perhaps overly so) 3 inch size range.

However, if an extreme example of 120-140 pound dog can actually prove it's merit in agility and speed (I'm in disbelief), then I'd doubtfully ever question it's strength. But what of endurance, or longevity of health? A bengal tiger weighs an average of 500 lbs., and is certainly adequately equipped for incredible biomechanical feats in performance, so the weight itself isn't my real objection. My 84lb. dog has no problem dragging a static 200 lbs. across the lawn or parkinglot, so I'd see little point in breeding to such extremes in weight.

The important thing, is too keep distinct characteristics of purpose among certain lines somewhat pure, so that they can be more consistently selected for, and consistently produced. A breeder who's interest is in providing urban disaster dogs for example, perhaps might wish to stay near the lower end of the size spectrum.

In my opinion though, no gsd should ever be considered unsuitable for familiy life, as long as their particular activity needs are met. And each should have a purpose to fulfil, other than simply pleasing it's owner with its presence.


----------



## cliffson1

Khawk, I had to go back to read my post to you to see if you have me confused with somebody else or you didn't read my post, or you are so set in your thought patterns that my post didn't register. Whichever it is, First, I NEVER mentioned drives or said that all dogs needed to have Sch degrees. I purposely included in my post seeing-eye dogs(where I come from that is a service dog maybe its different where you live), I also said Herding dog, I think that resonates with examples you were giving, and I said police/military dogs. That covers a wide range of territory that you didn't seem to pick up. I also said that all GS should possess nerve, courage, and be fearless, but that is what the standard for the breed calls for not Cliff Anderson. Most people on this board know that I am just as critical of dogs with "more drive than brains" as I am of the weak nerved dogs. So, how you read my post and came up with this monologue about Sch and Drives in reference to my post is beyond me. Try reading my post again and then read your response to me and maybe you will see the disconnect....Take care!


----------



## Smithie86

I think it is also finding a breeder that is honest to themselves and why they are breeding their dogs, whether male or female. To me, that is the basics for ethics and focus in breeding. Looking at what is a good balance for what the dogs needs in the next generation, rather than breeding to line/pedigree/color.

Being able to really read what the behavior is in a dog, rather than use the common buzz words that are used to sell. Very few people really understand behavior in a dog - what does that grip really mean, physical manifestations, etc. They focus on what the dog looks like, where show or working, and not how the dog is in all situations. I know of a really nice stud dog, working lines titled and koered that was given away for free to someone in another state for vague reasons and the dog is an issue in the new situation. Not good.

Gene England, whether you agree with him or not, is an excellent example of testing a dog. He is like Gypapi in Europe for us. Huge physical and mental presence that just standing there could drive off a dog. Test a dog on them and you will see the true dog. We saw that at a practice field at the WUSV in Eindhoven one year with a top rated dog with Gyapi.

Really looking at the health of the pedigree - how is the dog (both sides) producing in regards to not only hips, but any issues with SIBO, EPI, thyroid, back issues, etc..

We look for a dogs with brains as well - one that thinks, reasons, has a "style of work" - not barking crazy for drive or no reason.

We look for consistency in what people are doing - watching and talking to other breeders and why they do what they do. What are people producing. There are some small, pretty unknown breeders, both here and in Europe, that have a really good direction on their breeding focus. Not program - very few in the states have a true breeding program - that is multi-generational that you keep, actually work and title dogs from your breedings and use in breedings. 

When breeders switch direction rapidly (not over a period of time) because it does not support what they want to sell (show to working focus, working to show focus, titled to untitled focus), I would question why. Changing for a good reason is one thing. Changing for economics is not.


----------



## big_dog7777

This is all very very simple. Germany has it correct (except for the buying of titles part). A true GSD comes from TITLED or at the very least WORKING parents. They can be a K9, search and rescue, herding or sport. The only way that anyone can prove a dogs nerve, physical and mental abilities along with his willingness to work with man is to ACTUALLY WORK THEM. PERIOD. From that working knowledge comes the ability to create successful breeding pairs that pass along what a real (yes, I said REAL) GSD is. Are there oversized working GSD's - SURE. They are not the norm, but they exist. Until we see an oversized GSD breeder step up and show titles or active street dogs that are their breeding stock it's all junk that's based on how a dog looks - which is least important of all. The bottom line is that I cannot even list all of the things YOU DO NOT AND NEVER WILL KNOW about a supposedly "perfect" oversized GSD you choose to breed if you do not work them. 

To everyone that has a GSD that is over standard - your dog is not useless. Your dog is not any less of a family member and you will not love him any less because he's large. He may even have lots of working potential. HE JUST IS NOT BREEDWORTHY. My first GSD was over standard. I would not have traded him for anything - but he was not breedworthy. Quite frankly, I don't think either of my current dogs are breedworthy either.

So many GSD's are bred that have absolutely positively no business being bred.


----------



## wbzorker

Folks, you have no idea how funny this "serious" thread is to me. Let me explain:

Seven or eight months ago I discovered this forum and responded to a post asking for info on Royalair kennel. I was interested because I was waiting for a Royalair puppy myself. After reading a great deal of closed minded opinions and bizarre arguements, I realized that no progress was being made, that no worthwhile knowledge would come from the thread, and I stopped reading it, and the board.

Some of the things that I learned from that thread were:
An oversized GSD isn't a real GSD.
AKC obedience isn't a real sport.
A GSD that doesn't do Shutzhund isn't a real GSD.
Scorn was heaped upon the breeder, myself and the puppy I didn't have yet. 

Seven months ago I picked up my puppy. He is an absolute delight and I'm thrilled with my purchase. But, now it looks like he might <u>not</u> be "oversized". Whoa! 

Finding out this important fact, I rushed to post on this forum and low and behold, nothing has changed. The same people are heaping scorn and nothing new is being said. Wisc. Tiger went so far as to say "So if you enjoy your 130 dog, so be it, just don't expect real GSD people to want to buy one." (6/26/09-this thread) and there have been clear implications that a person buying a GSD to "just be a pet" is somehow wrong or inferior.

So, in this alternate forum reality, this is my life:

When I bought my first GSD, for a pet, I was obviously pond scum. Then I put several herding titles and an obedience title on her. This elevated my status slightly. To floating weed, perhaps. Oh, oh, it turned out she was 1/2" over the standard. Phooey, now I'm not a "real GSD person". 

This being my only goal in life, I tried again. This time I bought a West German showline shep, son of VA2 Indo von der Bildieche. This time I intended to get titles on him from the start, so I skipped the pond scum status. Alas, the seven titles he's earned are only AKC/UKC obedience titles. (7 months ago, I was told on this thread to get a Golden Retriever because a real GSD should only do "real" work, and AKC/UKC obedience didn't qualify). Oh dear, on top of that when my show-line shep matured, he turned out to be oversized-(like his Daddy). So there I was, still not a "real GSD person". 

Lo and behold, Folks, I've finally made it. My newest puppy is intended to earn titles, and some Schutzhund is a possibility. It looks like he won't be oversized, soooo-

Finally-I'm a _Real GSD Person_ *because* I bought a puppy from Royalair.

Moral to the story? Criticize individual dogs or breeders using facts to support your argument and you will be respected by your readers. 

Criticizing and insulting people that join this board to improve their knowledge of the breed, to me, just sounds stupid.

Wendy
URO1,UCD River vom Adel Haus CDX, RE, CGC, HIT (a.k.a. Cairo)
Countess Windstorm Willow HSAs, CD, HTDI-s, PT, CGC
Royalair's Silver Bark (a.k.a. Bhakti)


----------



## WiscTiger

Wendy B, since you have decided to call me out in your post I will still stand by my words. 
<span style="color: #3333FF">Quote by WiscTiger </span>


> Quote:So if you enjoy your 130 dog, so be it, just don't expect real GSD people to want to buy one


 Yikes I am quoting myself.

By real GSD people I am referring to people who want to do things that a GSD is suppose to do, like herding or SchH. A 130 lb GSD would be physically hampered in trying to do these tasks, how do I know I have a 100 lb GSD LC I purchased as a pup from a breeder who doesn't bred for coats. I have three other GSD's in the house and there is no way he can physically do the things that the others can do who weight 77, 68 and 65 lbs.

I think everyone should enjoy what ever dog they purchase or rescue. So if it is a 130 lb GSD you want then again I will say enjoy it.

Val


----------



## SunCzarina

I had that 130lb monster GSD, a genetic anomaly for his lineage. Good dog, Morgan not considered, the smartest of my 7 shepherds. Too bad his body fell apart at only 10 years old, after having a lifetime of medical issues.

He was also a clutz. Zero athletic ability, the dog ofter ran right into a tree chasing his ball. Until he was 3, he couldn't figure out how to run in a straight line, he ran sideways. I could go on but my DD says 'did you notice that I'm hungry'


----------



## pupresq

I have never bought a GSD but I am as "real" as GSD person as you could want to meet. And I have never been made to feel like pond scum on this board because of where I got my dogs. To me a "real" GSD person is one who is knowledgable and cares about the breed, what it was bred to do, what it looks like, what is special about it that makes it different from all the other breeds.

So when it comes to breeders who don't breed to standard and/or don't work their dogs, it's not about the dog someone buys as much as it's about the breeding practices they are choosing to support. The US is FULL of unwanted GSDs. They come in all shapes and sizes, all colors, and all temperaments. I care enough about GSDs that I don't see any reason for people to be going out and buying dogs from breeders who aren't breeding to standard, aren't titling or working their dogs, or aren't taking dogs back when there's a problem or whatever the issue is.


----------



## Castlemaid

> Originally Posted By: pupresqI have never bought a GSD but I am as "real" as GSD person as you could want to meet. And I have never been made to feel like pond scum on this board because of where I got my dog. To me a "real" GSD person is one who is knowledgable and cares about the breed, what it was bred to do, what it looks like, what is special about it that makes it different from all the other breeds.
> 
> So when it comes to breeders who don't breed to standard and/or don't work their dogs, it's not about the dog someone buys as much as it's about the breeding practices they are choosing to support. The US is FULL of unwanted GSDs. They come in all shapes and sizes, all colors, and all temperaments. I care enough about GSDs that I don't see any reason for people to be going out and buying dogs from breeders who aren't breeding to standard, aren't titling or working their dogs, or aren't taking dogs back when there's a problem or whatever the issue is.


Hannah (pupresq) summarized the entire on-going arguement very well! I joined this forum with "only" a possibly GSD mix, that I was interested in training, and doing Schutzhund. No one ever ever made me feel like I was any form of alga because I didn't have a "real" GSD. But then, I didn't act like I knew everything there was to know about dogs and breeding dogs, nor did I stick out my tongue at people who tried to educate me about what a GSD is, and what a good breeder is. So maybe it wasn't so much where I got my dog from, but about my attitude? (Don't know? A WILD guess, maybe?)

But when I wanted a puppy to raise for myself, I went with a reputable breeder that breeds to standard, and works and titles her dogs, and will take back dogs no matter what. Because if I just wanted a pet, I can rescue one. If I just wanted a pet that I can try different activities one for fun, I found one at the shelter. 

But when I had my heart set on a German Shepherd with hopes of titling, I went with a breeder that breeds Shepherds to standard, in looks, size, working ability and temperament. 

To me, breeding a GSD that can't do Schutzhund, or agility, or other activities, is like breeding Labs that won't retrieve . . . what's the point?


----------



## jaggirl47

Very well said! This forum has been wonderful to me and everyone has been extremely awesome! I am actively looking for the breeder of my next shepherd for almost a year from now and everyone has been absolutely wonderful and informative. Thank you all for the support you guys have shown me from all sides on here!


----------



## Kayos and Havoc

Man I just read this thread and I am not sure what the argument is about! 

All my GSD's are real GSD's. I hav a rescue who is oversized and has a few agility titles, an American showline with a few titles and a German showline who is working on a few titles. 

I think a real GSD is what you want him to be. 

Wendy B I am sorry you feel criticized, I never have felt that way.


----------



## jaggirl47

http://royalair.org/page1.html

This is why I wasn't interested in the kennel right here. This page says it all!


----------



## Amaruq

> Originally Posted By: Wendy B.
> Some of the things that I learned from that thread were:
> An oversized GSD isn't a real GSD.
> AKC obedience isn't a real sport.
> A GSD that doesn't do Shutzhund isn't a real GSD.
> Scorn was heaped upon the breeder, myself and the puppy I didn't have yet.


I believe the point was there is a standard for the GSD which calls for a certain structure, size and temperament to distinguish it from a Chihuahua or an Irish Wolf Hound. The goal of any breeder should be to produce dogs that match what the breed standard which defines the breed. In all of my years here I do not recall AKC obedience not being deemed a real "sport". I have seen many people refer to it as not a true test of BREED WORTHINESS for a GSD and I am one of them. There is a huge difference in a "sport" and tests such as SCH and herding which TESTS the dogs nerve, temperament and drive. Yes, SCH is often referred to as a sport but it was the one of the original tests to deem a GSD to be breed worthy.


----------



## Doc

I can not sit by and without saying something - although I realize in this fourm I am the minority.

I have no idea how long the majority of people in this fourm has been involved in the German shepherd, but from the sounds of it, there has been very little reading and honest discussion about the history of this breed. The GSD is suppose to be a "working" dog. And as far as that goes, work can be defined in many ways. The GSD is suppose to a utility type dog, one that can do many different activities. The GSD grew out of the herding dog that Max watched herding sheep. That is the tenent of which this breed was developed. It evolved into a "police" dog when the rural landscape began to dissappear. The it was decided that the GSD shouls be able to perform certain feats to get titled. Along with a long evolution of size standards, coat colors, etc.

Somewhere along the line, greed and personal agenda took over and the once herding working dog that was a "German shepherd" (notice the word shepherd) divided into two camps. Dogs that are bred to conform to the standard (show lines) and working lines. Unfortunately, "working lines" were mostly defined as Sch. dogs and herding German shepherds were red headed step children, along with German shepherds that didn't conform to the standard.

The politics raised its ugly head and the breed experienced a slow steady decline for the past 30 years. This coupled with the fact that German shepherds were bred based on titles and not health has taken its toll.

To argue today about what a "real" german shepherd is, is a useless argument. Because the bred that was at one time both a working and show bred has been divided into two very different dogs. And unfortunately, the two shall never be one again as long as people are not willing to commit to dialog and overcome the obvious problems within this breed that have been magnified over the past 30+ years.


----------



## pupresq

Thanks Lucia! 

And I want to add - I think that even people who want to work a dog can sometimes find one in rescue. It can be tricky to find a puppy in the color you want at the time you want with the drive you want etc., but there are a lot of to standard drivey dogs available for adoption. But other times for what someone is looking for, it's easier to buy a puppy or maybe they just _want_ to buy a puppy, which is fine. I think Lucia picked a great breeder and got a phenomenal dog.







I don't think he's more of a "real" GSD than mine but his parents were certainly more breed-worthy and I think that was the point John was trying to make. I have a great dog with terrific drive but without knowing her background and genetics she shouldn't be bred. For other dogs, it's their conformation or health or drive or some other quality that makes them not breedworthy. It doesn't make them bad dogs! But there are SO many GSDs out there, the standard for breeding should be to be done as responsibly as possible, breeding the best of the best and -that needs to be assessed in some objective manner that is appropriate to that breed.


----------



## Liesje

Honestly I don't really care if people don't care about titles or prefer larger size, longer coat, or whatever, but what bugs me is people trying to make their dogs out to be something they are not. I've seen breeders advertise their puppies as "suitable for" things like police work, SAR, SchH, etc and you do a bit if digging and cannot find any dogs from their program doing these types of work in the past three generations or more. To me that is just lying and being a con. If someone likes to breed "flat-backed", oversized, long coated German shepherds then that's what it should say on their website. I simply call a spade a spade is all.

Also, I've still yet to hear a valid justification for all this "old world" German Shepherd stuff I keep seeing. All I see is people saying one thing and then breeding another. That doesn't really instill any confidence in me as a potential buyer. So to be blunt anytime I see that catch phrase I move on.

Here is an "old world" GSD bitch (VA, SchH1, KKL1) and my GSD bitch. I see a lot more similarities to my bitch who is 55lbs, 21" than a 120+lb dog. Hmmmmm


----------



## Doc

CH Vol of Long Worth ROM


















Valiantdale's Icon vom Irwin UD TD SchHIII









UKC Champion Jodel's The Phantom



















Some of the old, some of the new with ties back to the old. (Hmmm)


----------



## Liesje

Random Googling, first hit....
"HOME OF THE *TRULY GIANT*, OLD FASHIONED, OLD WORLD STYLE GERMAN SHEPHERD! WE BREED A SPECIFIC TYPE OF GERMAN SHEPHERD. THEY ARE 100% GERMAN SHEPHERD, BUT THE OLD WORLD, OLD FASHIONED STYLE THAT IS OVERSIZED. [...] *OUR DOGS TRULY REFLECT THE WAY THE GERMAN SHEPHERD WAS ORIGINALLY CREATED TO BE*."


The breed's founding dog....
V Horand von Grafrath








"Horand embodied for the enthusiasts of that time the fulfillment of their fondest dreams. *He was big for that period, between 24" and 24 1/2", even for the present day a good medium size*, with powerful frame, beautiful lines, and a nobly formed head. Clean and sinewy in build, the entire dog was one live wire." ~Captain von Stephanitz



Confusing, non?

I don't get why they don't just say "We love huge dogs so that's what we breed." To me that makes more sense than this "huge old world" stuff that is not substantiated by the VA dogs going back to the origin of the breed.


----------



## Doc

Lies

You need to read a little more about Horand, Max and the political war that ensued with breeders and shepherds during the founding of this bred. I would encourage you to study about Max, his status in the German society, and his overbearing, demanding attitude.

Next I would find the history of Horand. Max saved him from a certain death because of his lack of working ability. And the only reason he is listed as the 1st dog in the registry is because he was Max's dog.

Then I would trace Max's attempt to bred the German shepherd he truly wanted. He never could accomplish it - but breeders in the Barvaria region and around Wurttemberger, using larger dogs, developed a prototype that lead to the German shepherd shepherd of the early 1900"s. 

It is interesting to note that in the official registry of stud dogs - kept by Max - the actual size of the dogs during those early years. Around 1920 Max felt (for whatever reason - perhaps his thoughts were based on his need to put the dog through task not suited for larger dogs) that the German shepherd was too tall. And after 1922, the number of "Large" German shepherds could not be registered in the breed journal based solely on height. ( A major flaw in my opinion). So from 1922 forward, the medium to small German shepherd came to dominate the title circa. That does not in anyway mean that "large" German shepherds were not around and a not breeding. Most of those dogs remained in the rural areas on the farm and performed their working job as herding dogs.

Just a little history to try to explain and enlighten.


----------



## Baby Byron

Amen to Doc. That is actually precise. And the thing is... the genes are there, in every GSD. Some will express and become larger and that, by no means is a sure shot that the dogs will have health issues. I've had large long coats healthy all the way through and standard size stocks with all sorts of issues. To assume that because the frame is large the animal will collapse negates the fact that different traits will be up or down-regulated on the genome by separate groups or families of genes. It's the same forperfectly fit folks, with healthy BMI, less than 20% body fat and yet with high cholesterol levels all life long. One trait is by no means direct connection to another. Most of my GSDs have been large coats and only one (a rescue I knew nothing about his history) had, at age 12, fusion of lower vertebrae which by the way is very common in Dachs and Maltese therefore size is not really an issue there. All my large GSDs have been amazingly great in agility being one of my two standard size stocks the klutziest of all dogs. As y'all can see... there's way more to this melting pot than meets the eye. I love the board and enjoy the learning that happens here but I have to agree that sometimes folks get a little too particular and cross the "respect others' decisions" line quite frankly. We all have our reasons for the decisions we make and that's OK. We should just be a little more careful about the way we present and defend our views not to come across as judgemental of others' positions. That's all. I'm sorry that Wendy B. had a bad experience but I can see how things can come across really bad in written form without the benefit of eye contact of a live conversation. In the end, all of us here love GSDs, pets or not. And a wonderful GSD as a pet is a dog that has a great job! It's a dog whose first and foremost job is to take care of his human family and enjoy their love. I think that's grand. Wouldn't you agree?








Ana


----------



## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: DocI would encourage you to study about Max, his status in the German society, and his overbearing, demanding attitude.


Well this is also confusing to me, as I often see him quoted or referred to and defended here by you and others. Was he right or was he wrong? Now we are saying Horand was lacking in working ability but then on some breeders sites it states "they are not bred for the high drive", "RATHER LOW TO MEDIUM DRIVE". So we can criticize Horand for lacking working ability but turn around and intentionally breed dogs lacking in drive? We can critisize Max in one thread but then quote him and defend him in another?

I just don't get all the picking and choosing here and there as far as what we agree with, what we don't, which dogs count and which dogs don't. To me it just looks like a lack of direction in the breeding program.


----------



## Liesje

Ana, my beef is not really with anyone here or their pets but with breeders misrepresenting dogs and the breed as a whole. There are some great members here that concern themselves with the breed far above and beyond just having a healthy family pet. Somehow "breed preservation" is considered being an elitist snob.


----------



## Doc

I am not a fan of Max. Never have been. I quote his information but in no way think the sun rises and sets on him. Many drink his Kool-Aid and would never question his authority. His Horand was a useless, non working, hyper pet dog. Does that mean Max wrote the Standard based on his beloved Horand? I think not. Horand's previous owner was ready to put him down because of his lack of working ability and inability to control him. I didn't make it up, it's in the history of the breed. 

You picked and chose the picture of Horand to support your idea of the correct size, shape, etc. of a German shepherd. I didn't. Just like you picked a dog to compare yours to. I can find examples of earlier German shepherds that do not look anything like Horand yet they were titled as champions.

I'm not sure comments about breeding programs can be made by non-breeders. 

And anyone's lack of willingness to study the breed will only contribute to a very narrow understanding and appreciation of the breed. It is this lack of understanding that has pushed the decline of the breed to it's current position.

Just the facts.


----------



## Doc

Since I'm teaching history today, lets look at one of Max's early crosses with a bitch (Madam von der Krone) from the old Krone Kennels located in Wurttemberger. Remeber, the Wurttemberger line of shepherds were much larger, thicker boned, and had a better tail set - according to Max.

V Horand von Grafrath









Crossed with Madam von der Krone gave us:

Baron von der Krone









The influence of the Wurttemberger line is obvious.


----------



## Doc

Pilot 2-2 V Horand von Grafrath









His Grandson









Just showing the early progression of the German shepherd dog.


----------



## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: Doc
> 
> And anyone's lack of willingness to study the breed will only contribute to a very narrow understanding and appreciation of the breed.


My "study" just happens to involve actually training, working, and trialing my dogs.

Anyone can grab at bits and pieces of the breeds history to substantiate just about any claim or breeding practice, but IMO the buck stops at the dog's ability to do the work. It's gotta have the drive, the foundation, the athletic ability, and the genetics to back all that up. I don't really give a flip about a dog's size, "flat back", coat type, etc but I do find it more than coincidental that people breeding for these types and passing them off as true working GSDs are always falling back on pedigrees and history rather than actually providing the public and breed fanciers with examples of their dogs DOING the work.

As if calling SchH dogs "attack dogs" is not narrow understanding of the breed and its history....


----------



## jaggirl47

I have a question that kind of relates to this with the kennel in question. If one of the ears is a "soft ear", wouldn't that disqualify him? Is that something that can be passed from generation to generation? One of the sires has an ear that is tipped and the son of that sire seems to have issues with his left ear also when you look closely. I'm asking because I honestly do not know.


----------



## Doc

If "training" and "showing/trialing" is a study and understanding of the history about the German shepherd, that can only lead to narrow understanding about the versitility of this breed. Most animals can be "trained" to perform tasks - a German shepherd is no different. But without a basic understanding in bloodlines and genetics of past dogs in their pedigree, one has no idea what their dog is made of. A well balance German shepherd "works" because of his love to do it. He doesn't need to be told what to do , how to do it and rewarded with a toy/food etc for doing his job.

If all one has to go on is "training, working and trialing" then the idea of "genetic obediance" will never be understood.

You train monkeys, you encourage dogs to maximize their natural/genetically inherited abilities/traits. And if SchH is the pennicle, then a good trainer can get most dogs to perform in that sport. It is a sport and not a test of skill and will but rather a test of training a dog to perform. That is my opinion and no one on this board or others has convinced me otherwise.


----------



## Doc

It would depend. Yes floppy ears are a fault and can be inherited. Sometimes, when there are several dogs in a pack, an ear can get damaged from rough play. If that's the case then the ear problem would not be hereditary.


----------



## Castlemaid

Yes, soft ears are a genetic fault and will be passed down the line. 

A reputable breeder will not breed soft-eared dogs. 

Unethical breeders will tape the dog's ears and breed anyways, making all sorts of excuses as to why they do so.


----------



## Liesje

OK, so I am not allowed to comment because according to you I have a narrow understanding of the breed and am not a breeder, but you can say all this about working dogs even though you breed dogs with low drives and do not work your dogs in any fashion? Seems inconsistent, at best....


----------



## Xeph

> Quote:Unethical breeders will tape the dog's ears and breed anyways, making all sorts of excuses as to why they do so.


I have to disagree here. Lots of AmLine breeders tape ears, but bend over backwards if there is ANY sort of issue.

I don't agree with "precautionary taping", but if the breeder is working to improve ears, how does that make them unethical?


----------



## Castlemaid

In my opinion, it isn't ethical. Just because it is accepted practice, that doesn't make it correct. 

There has been posts here about owners who's dogs's ears never stood, and only later did they find out that the breeder was breeding floppy eared dogs with ears that only stood with taping. 
Owners felt cheated and betrayed, and might I say, with reason.


----------



## jaggirl47

OK, didn't mean for that to cause an argument, but thank you for the info. The ears do stand on the dogs in question. However, one is tipped and one has that look like they captured the ear just right in the pic to make it look like it stood correctly, if you know what I mean by that.


----------



## BlackGSD

Jackie,

If they are "working to improve ears" they WHY are they breeding dogs with soft ears that HAVE to be taped? (Or is this not what you are saying?)


----------



## Doc

How do you define work? And since when did low drive dogs not have the ability to work? And why can't dogs over the standard be accepted as a real German shepherd? And why are people crucified in this form if they could care less if a "trained" dog can jump a 4' wall? And when was the sport of SchH decreed as the only measure that is important for evaluating the worth of a "working" German shepherds.

It's no wonder people that have a different perspective about German shepherds are few and far between in here. I must of missed the disclaimer that this site was for people who are concerned with SchH and the Standard size GSD only.

Perhaps you kind folk







could give me the web-site for people that appreciate all sizes, shapes, and abilities found in the German shepherd.


----------



## SunCzarina

> Originally Posted By: BlackGSDJackie,
> 
> If they are "working to improve ears" they WHY are they breeding dogs with soft ears that HAVE to be taped? (Or is this not what you are saying?)


Am I backwards in my thinking that pricked ears are a recessive gene dominated by floppy ears? If my thinking is correct, working to improve that would be like 2 brown eyed people working to have a blue eyed baby - not that it doesn't happen it's just a lot less likely.


----------



## Liesje

I don't know about genetics, but I think if you let dogs breed out on the streets, after a while you most always get a medium sized dog, short tight coat, prick ears.


----------



## GSD07

I have to agree with Doc that training, working, and trialing personal dogs cannot be called studying the breed if all other aspects of this process are overlooked (history, pedigree, genetics, keeping an eye on structural and working weaknesses and strengths of the dogs with an intent of improving that in the next generation, and learning how). Training the dog is what it is, training a bred by someone else individual dog and becoming a better handler of what is in hands at the moment, and also turning into a better trainer of GSD or any other breed overall, but it won't teach anything about making actual breeding decisions and producing a sound dog (simple putting two SchH3s together doesn't work) . 

It's like driving a car. If I master driving a racing car I can become a champion driver but it won't teach me anything about designing its engine unless I actually go thru the trouble and learn engineering from scratch including history, and continue learning and experimenting.


----------



## Liesje

But my point is that it takes a combination of everything. You cannot expect to get great quality dogs everytime if you take dogs and breed them simply based on pedigree, what dogs are there several generations back, but never actually testing their temperaments, soundness, courage, and drive in ways that truly tell you about your dog.

To me it doesn't make sense to say the GSD should be a versatile breed and have no proof of the breeding dogs being just that other than some great dogs decades back in the pedigree. I've seen unhealthy, nervy, aggressive, you name it dogs with supposedly "great" dogs as their mother and father. It doesn't take but one generation to get off track and if you are not testing these progeny and just breeding them because they act OK as pets and are obedient around the house, what good is it doing the breed? 

So to take your car analogy, would you buy and race with a racecar just based on it's specs on paper without putting it to the test?

I am not saying genetics and pedigrees are not important, not at all, but for me, the buck stops with the dog itself. If the dog has the greatest pedigree ever but is a total nervebag, why would we breed it? Also, one reason why we have the info we have about great dogs of the past is because those dogs *have* been tested. How many generations are we willing to go on just assuming that the dogs are producing correct nerves and drive?


----------



## GSD07

LIes, and what about the opposite? If the dog is stellar, health, nerves, everything, but has pretty crappy pedigree? Would you breed the dog? Or the dog is as above, superstar, proven in competition, but oversized, would you breed him?


----------



## Doc

Responsible breeders make critical decisions long before they "throw" two dogs together. Lies, you are not a breeder. You buy a dog based on faith that the breeder knew/knows what they are doing. Some breeders do and others don't. Unfortunately, pitiful breeders can end up with papered dogs that may or may not have the balance that is necessary to produce a good dog. However, many buyers and novices will form at the mouth for a son or grandson from some hi titled imported dog long before they will even consider a "local" breeder. After all, German shepherds come from Germany and how could anyone except a German breeder possibly know how to breed a German shepherd? (sic). Yes, even in Germany there are good breeders and not so good breeders. Some bred for the love of the animal, some breed for the $$ - just like in this country.

Pedigrees and bloodlines, if studied, will give you a genetic blueprint of a pup. If a line has been inbred or linebred then the same genes run throughout the line. If there are numerous outcrosses, then the bloodline is a hodpog of bloodlines and genes which can result in dominant characteristics that are not acceptable. As an old timer once said, "physical compensation is the foundation of all good breeding programs, because mentally unstable dogs should not be bred". You pick and choose breeding pairs so the dominant characteristics will improve the overall structure of the offspring.

The notion about the buck stops at the offspring is nonsense. The buck stops with the breeder who plans and breeds dogs based on an understanding of bloodlines and genetics. Without that, the pup is just the results. And believe it or not, some breeders just breed dogs. They do not train/show or title their own animals. I suppose that makes those people that only breed unworthy in some circles.

I breed German shepherds. I do not breed SchH dogs or show dogs. I breed German shepherds that have the ability be trained to do many things besides SchH and shows.


----------



## WiscTiger

Just a little clarification, Doc not all breeders know pedigree's and way back into pedigree's that is why IMHO that there are some of the problems we are seeing in the breed. 

Please note I said Not All Breeders, there are those out there who know their lines and the history, there are breeders who can't tell you anything past 3 generations.

Val


----------



## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: GSD07LIes, and what about the opposite? If the dog is stellar, health, nerves, everything, but has pretty crappy pedigree? Would you breed the dog? Or the dog is as above, superstar, proven in competition, but oversized, would you breed him?


Well I don't breed anything and don't plan to, but just offhand I'd say *no *on the first one, and *maybe* on the second one, depending on the females being considered and how their previous breedings ended up as far as the size of the progeny, and the dogs behind the oversized male.


----------



## Xeph

> Quote:If they are "working to improve ears" they WHY are they breeding dogs with soft ears that HAVE to be taped? (Or is this not what you are saying?)


When I say "breeding to improve ears", they know that THAT particular dog had a soft ear/soft ears, but the rest of the line is strong, so they're breeding to improve the strength of the ear leather (amongst other things).

There are things a dog should DEFINITELY be thrown out of the gene pool for..soft ears isn't one of them.

Both Strauss AND Delphi have ONE "bad ear". They both have one ear that will wiggle in motion, but the other is solid as a rock....so my question becomes "Why is the one ear wiggly?"

It is also hard to work to improve ears in a line because there is so much preventative taping, you don't really know whether ears are truly soft or not...taping can MAKE an ear soft due to excessive manipulation of the cartilage


----------



## GSD07

Doc, could you please post or PM me your website? Because it looks like everybody knows what kind of dogs you breed except me. I guess I missed some previous threads. I'm just curious.


----------



## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: Doc
> Pedigrees and bloodlines, if studied, will give you a genetic blueprint of a pup. If a line has been inbred or linebred then the same genes run throughout the line. If there are numerous outcrosses, then the bloodline is a hodpog of bloodlines and genes which can result in dominant characteristics that are not acceptable. As an old timer once said, "physical compensation is the foundation of all good breeding programs, because mentally unstable dogs should not be bred". You pick and choose breeding pairs so the dominant characteristics will improve the overall structure of the offspring.


But in this case, are the "dominant characteristics" only those pertaining to the conformation and health of the dog? Because if so, then for me this is an incomplete picture of the dog. I want a dog that is more than a show dog, perfect in conformation (however you want to define perfection) and health. I want a dog that is smart, sound, and courageous; a dog that turns "on" for the work and "off" for being in the home. I don't see how that can be known strictly based on genetics. 

I do think that genetics provide the starting and stopping points on the spectrum of any given characteristic; genetics will define what range, if any, the dog will fall into. But the dog can end up at different places on the spectrum between those two points, and where exactly one dog falls can't be known simply by the pictures, names, and titles on a pedigree. I guess I wish it were that easy, but I simply don't think it is. Otherwise wouldn't it stand to reason that each dog in one litter would look and act the same?


----------



## Doc

I *will not* post my site. I would then be accused of having hidden agendas and promoting my dogs and have to face the forum court for sentencing. And as an "unethical, byb, puppy miller, that doesn't breed to the Standard" I would hate all that free publicity.


----------



## lhczth

Lies,

If a breeder pays attention to the dogs and the genetics a good litter should be pretty consistent. There will be some differences since we aren't talking about cloning, but the differences should not be dramatic. 

A good breeder has to take everything into consideration. We have to know the dog we are breeding and the genetics that make up that dog. We also have to look at siblings to our dog, aunts and uncles, what they have produced, other dogs produced by grandparents, etc. The deeper we dig, the more informed we are, the less surprises and the more consistency we will get in our litters.

We had a friend come up to train who has not seen my two litters out of Vala. He told me that he was surprised at how similar they all were in behaviors despite being by two totally different males with very different pedigrees. That my female stamps a lot of herself into her pups. This is consistency and this is what we should be after and this is only obtained by understanding the history/genetics behind our dogs.


----------



## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: lhczthLies,
> 
> If a breeder pays attention to the dogs and the genetics a good litter should be pretty consistent. There will be some differences since we aren't talking about cloning, but the differences should not be dramatic.
> 
> A good breeder has to take everything into consideration. We have to know the dog we are breeding and the genetics that make up that dog. We also have to look at siblings to our dog, aunts and uncles, what they have produced, other dogs produced by grandparents, etc. The deeper we dig, the more informed we are, the less surprises and the more consistency we will get in our litters.
> 
> We had a friend come up to train who has not seen my two litters out of Vala. He told me that he was surprised at how similar they all were in behaviors despite being by two totally different males with very different pedigrees. That my female stamps a lot of herself into her pups. This is consistency and this is what we should be after and this is only obtained by understanding the history/genetics behind our dogs.


Right but is that ALL you do? No, you work and test your dogs. Would you still breed them if the only knowledge you had about them was through studying pedigrees and genetics, but didn't train, work, and test the dogs?

What about a litter that pretty much looks and acts the same, but a few start training and over time, it becomes apparent that one or two are nervy dogs, do you still breed them or keep breeding the parents based on the pedigrees?

To me it just seems that if genetics is the *only* thing that counts, why does anyone train and work their breeding dogs?


----------



## Doc

> Originally Posted By: Wisc.TigerJust a little clarification, Doc not all breeders know pedigree's and way back into pedigree's that is why IMHO that there are some of the problems we are seeing in the breed.
> 
> Please note I said Not All Breeders, there are those out there who know their lines and the history, there are breeders who can't tell you anything past 3 generations.
> 
> Val


You are exactly correct. I am sorry if my post said otherwise.


----------



## Doc

> Originally Posted By: lhczthLies,
> 
> If a breeder pays attention to the dogs and the genetics a good litter should be pretty consistent. There will be some differences since we aren't talking about cloning, but the differences should not be dramatic.
> 
> A good breeder has to take everything into consideration. We have to know the dog we are breeding and the genetics that make up that dog. We also have to look at siblings to our dog, aunts and uncles, what they have produced, other dogs produced by grandparents, etc. The deeper we dig, the more informed we are, the less surprises and the more consistency we will get in our litters.
> 
> We had a friend come up to train who has not seen my two litters out of Vala. He told me that he was surprised at how similar they all were in behaviors despite being by two totally different males with very different pedigrees. That my female stamps a lot of herself into her pups. This is consistency and this is what we should be after and this is only obtained by understanding the history/genetics behind our dogs.


Well stated. How else could a breeder produce more than 90 champions (6 out of 8 in one litter - the other two were never shown) in 12 years if they didn't have the knowledge and understanding of genetics and pedigrees while breeding?


----------



## cliffson1

Lies, nobody said that pedigree knowledge is all you do....but if you are breeding German Shepherd dogs it is more important that the training of the dog. Why??/ because training will not pass genetically and genes will. Once again there is a difference between breeding dogs and working dogs. To be a good breeder you have to have "knowledge" of the breed, standard, and the lines. To work a dog you have to have knowledge and patience, and consistency. You do not have to be a great trainer to be a great breeder, but you do have to have an understanding of proper working traits. You can take a mutt with no knowledge of history and train it to the highest levels, but that doesn't make them a breeder. A breeder that doesn't know the history of the breed and specifically the history of their lines is the reason the breed is in decline. If you work your dogs I think that shows the ability and capability of that individual dog and owner, but for me to buy a dog from somebody I have to know they know the breed. There is a lot to learn from Doc's post if you are a breeder and don't already know what he offers. I must admit that I am familar with most of the historical information he has, but the point is that I feel this knowledge is necessary for me to be a knowledgable breder. Not saying that this knowledge "has" to be requisite for breeding, but these insights allows you to have idea what is important and what is imperative in making many of your breeding decisions. Its like sports, the best players(working), often don't make the best coaches(breeder), and the best coaches(breeders) very often only played(working) at a very low level.


----------



## TRITON

Very good post Cliff...


----------



## Chris Wild

IMO, good breeding requires both. One must understand the pedigrees/history AND the individual dogs themselves.

As the old saying goes "Pedigree will tell you what a dog should be. The dog tells you who he really is."

Seeing how the individual dog stacks up to his pedigree, in terms of whether or not he actually represents that pedigree and the traits one would expect him to have based on that pedigree is as important as understanding the pedigree itself.

I've seen a couple absolute fantastic dogs with horrendous pedigrees. On paper, the dog shouldn't amount to anything. In reality, the dog amounts to a lot. On the flip side, I've seen some dogs with fantastic pedigrees who themselves were very poor examples of the breed. 

I would not breed either dog. I wouldn't breed the good dog with the bad pedigree, or the bad dog with the good pedigree. Because the pedigree tells me what genetics to expect, which may or may not be expressed or hidden in the dog, and the dog tells me what genetics he expresses. Looking at close relatives and what genetics they express also provides important information on what genes may be hidden in the dog, that he may not express himself but may pass onto progeny. When those things don't match up well and a dog is a fluke and doesn't represent his genetics you have no idea what the results will be. To me, a fluke isn't a good dog for breeding, no matter how nice the dog OR his pedigree may be.

The problem I see with so many breeders is they understand neither. Or they understand only one.. they look only at the dogs, but don't understand the pedigrees, or they look only at the pedigrees but don't understand the dogs.


----------



## Chris Wild

As far as working dogs, no of course training doesn't pass on genetics. But training and working the dog does expose the genetics that dog carries and expresses himself, and is the only way to truly test and uncover all that lies deep within the dog.

I suppose if one is only interested in physical attributes, that wouldn't apply. Anyone with a set of eyes can evaluate those just seeing the dog. But when it comes to temperament, that can't be evaluated thoroughly just seeing the dog a few times, nor even living with the dog day in and day out but never doing anything with the dog. It only comes through working the dog, training the dog, stressing the dog, pushing it's limits and seeing how it does.

Temperament is of utmost importance. More important than any other factor. When breeding a type of dog with a specific purpose... be it a hunting dog, herding dog, working dog... temperament should be evaluated not only from the general standpoint but also as it relates to the purpose and heritage of the breed.


----------



## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: Chris WildIMO, good breeding requires both. One must understand the pedigrees/history AND the individual dogs themselves.
> 
> As the old saying goes "Pedigree will tell you what a dog should be. The dog tells you who he really is."
> 
> Seeing how the individual dog stacks up to his pedigree, in terms of whether or not he actually represents that pedigree and the traits one would expect him to have based on that pedigree is as important as understanding the pedigree itself.
> 
> I've seen a couple absolute fantastic dogs with horrendous pedigrees. On paper, the dog shouldn't amount to anything. In reality, the dog amounts to a lot. On the flip side, I've seen some dogs with fantastic pedigrees who themselves were very poor examples of the breed.
> 
> I would not breed either dog. I wouldn't breed the good dog with the bad pedigree, or the bad dog with the good pedigree. Because the pedigree tells me what genetics to expect, which may or may not be expressed or hidden in the dog, and the dog tells me what genetics he expresses.


Agree 100%, exactly what I mean


----------



## Doc

IMO "Pedigrees will tell you what a dog should be. GENETICS tells you who he really is."

And because so many "breeders" have no concept about genetics and breed solely on paper and titles, they outcross so much that the genetic identity within some dogs is unstable and uncertain; which, IMO, has contributed to a majority of the problems we see today - everything from mental, health and structure.

A dog is a manifestation of its genetics and environment.


----------



## Chris Wild

Well, since I'm not aware of any canine genome mapping that will list out all the individual genes of a dog, how they combine, and what they translate to in terms of physical and mental traits, the only way to see the genetics is to look at the DOG.

The harder and deeper you look, the better idea you have of the dog's genetics. Environment cannot change genetics. It can affect the behavioral expression of them, but getting to know the dog well and better yet being the person who works and trains the dog, can quite easily answer the question of what is genetic and what is environment if the person knows what to look for.

Can you watch a dog at an obedience trial or SchH trial or agility trial and determine exactly what of the dog's behavior is genetic and what is environment? Sometimes regarding some behaviors. Most often not regarding a good number of them. At least not comprehensively. But see that dog frequently in the training needed to get to that trial, or be the trainer, and it's quite easy to determine which is which.


----------



## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: Doc they outcross so much that the genetic identity within some dogs is unstable and uncertain; which, IMO, has contributed to a majority of the problems we see today - everything from mental, health and structure.


Others would disagree that outcrossing is the root of evil, and instead would argue that genetic bottlenecks caused by excessive inbreeding on a few select dogs is the cause.

And still others would argue that breeding based on paper alone and the reputations of dogs decades back, and assuming those genes carry through to today despite the subsequent generations never having truly been tested to see if that's true, is the cause of so many problems. Sort of the "champion bloodline" mentatity seen in all the Sunday newspaper ads.


----------



## Doc

As the old saying goes "Garbage in, garbage out."


----------



## Doc

How can one argue or question the success with linebreeding and inbreeding? Which when done right, has produced more champions than any other breeding method? The problem with most breeders is they associate inbreeding and linebreeding with low vigor and low fertility which is absolutely wrong.

If you want to mix a bunch of genes and hope the magic potion produces an outstanding dog, that's fine. It makes more sense to me that by knowing what goes into the bloodline i.e. inbreeding and close linebreeding will give a much higher probability of predicting the outcome.

The main problem with dogs today is that breeders and buyers place very little value on the genetics.


----------



## Chris Wild

Linebreeding/inbreeding can indeed be very useful when done right. But while they can help cement certain traits within a dog or bloodline, they often do so at the detriment to the total overall picture of the dog because while they increase the percentage of expression of that certain dog's traits, that goes for the bad as well as the good.

Excessive linebreeding does indeed produce "more champions than any other breeding method". This is quite clearly displayed in the pedigrees of those dogs who always win in the show ring. But at what cost? It's a lot more than vigor and fertility that suffers. What is the temperament, working ability and health like in those dogs? IMO, quite pitiful in many (though certainly not all) cases. Is it the inbreeding alone that caused that? Of course not. It's the very narrow breeding focus that drove the use of the inbreeding for a specific set of traits at the detriment to others in the first place.


----------



## Doc

Chris, you know as well as I do that inbreeding/linebreeding takes more than just putting related dogs together. It takes a keen eye and studious selection to avoid the very issues that you mentioned.


----------



## Chris Wild

Very true. But beyond that, the broader the spectrum of traits one is working toward, and the more multifaceted and complex those traits and the genetics needed to create them are, the less valuable a tool inbreeding becomes and the greater care that must be employed when using it.


----------



## Vandal

I know people who have bred very close with excellent results and I am talking temperament here. The best dogs I have ever worked, and there have been more than a few, came from her lines. This is not someone who does not know her dogs/lines however and not all are titled either. There have been very few dogs recently who have impressed me as the helper but over the course of decades now, hers always do. BTW, she likes large dogs also and believe me, these dogs show more agility than many of the smaller dogs I have seen. They don't go around things, they go up and over them by choice and because of their genetics.
Doc keeps making really good points but it seems people are arguing with him because he said one thing about what he likes in dogs and some others don't like it. Not really a reason to disagree with everything else he says, because he is making sense.


----------



## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> And still *others would argue that breeding based on paper alone and the reputations of dogs decades back, and assuming those genes carry through to today despite the subsequent generations never having truly been tested to see if that's true, is the cause of so many problems. *Sort of the "champion bloodline" mentatity seen in all the Sunday newspaper ads.


That's the crux of the issue for me, Anne. I am not a breeder, but as a potential buyer, why would I not be skeptical of someone saying one thing and doing something else? For me that does not instill a lot of faith in the breeding program. I'm not arguing against the importance of genetics or the value of linebreeding. As in the example you gave, you, an experienced person, were _working_ those dogs, and you could see that they were good dogs. Could you see the same things if say, you just went over to that person's house and saw the dogs playing in the yard or playing with kids? Would you be as impressed with the dogs having never worked them or seen them work? How do you know that the genetics are good without testing the dogs and their relatives/progeny? (I'm not being argumentatitive or rhetorical, I would really like to know....is it possible to tell without working the dogs?)


----------



## lhczth

Lies, please read what I wrote instead of arguing just for the sake of arguing.


----------



## Chris Wild

Not saying that inbreeding can't produce great results. It certainly can. It depends on the dogs being inbred upon and most importantly the knowledge of the person doing it, which in the case of Anne's example was quite extensive.

I absolutely do agree with Doc that an understanding of pedigrees and the genetics they represent is highly important. I don't think he's saying inbreeding should be done willy nilly by someone who doesn't know what they're inbreeding on. Obviously he's not and he takes understanding pedigrees very seriously.

But I don't agree that if the pedigree is in order, that is the end all and be all and that what the dogs themselves are like is unimportant if they have the right pedigree because the pedigree alone provides enough of a "blueprint for the pup".

And I disagree with the point being presented that inbreeding is the best and only way to achieve good results and that outcrossing is nothing but "mix a bunch of genes and hope the magic potion produces an outstanding dog" and "has contributed to a majority of the problems we see today - everything from mental, health and structure."


----------



## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: lhczthLies, please read what I wrote instead of arguing just for the sake of arguing.


I don't disagree with anything you said. Doc likes to go around saying that I think genetics and pedigrees don't matter. You will not find me actually saying that.



> Quote:If a breeder pays attention to the dogs and the genetics a good litter should be pretty consistent.
> 
> [...]
> 
> A good breeder has to take everything into consideration. We have to know the dog we are breeding and the genetics that make up that dog. We also have to look at siblings to our dog, aunts and uncles, what they have produced, other dogs produced by grandparents, etc.


So my question (to anyone) is, please expound on "know that" and "look at". Does that mean just looking at the papers? Looking at dogs (literally)? Visiting with dogs? Working dogs? ......


----------



## lhczth

> Quote:So my question (to anyone) is, please expound on "know that" and "look at". Does that mean just looking at the papers? Looking at dogs (literally)? Visiting with dogs? Working dogs? ......


Yes.


----------



## Chris Wild

All of the above. 
Look at the papers and pedigree and understand what they mean.
Look at the dog to see size, structure, movement, pigment, dentation, ears.... does it look like a GSD? 
Visit with the dog to see how it is "off the field" in everyday social settings, different environments, ability to settle and relax during down time, watch the interactions with known people and strangers, children, other dogs, other animals. 
Work the dog to understand its drives, thresholds, nerves, work ethic, willingness to be part of a team and take direction, courage, ability to handle pressure, resiliency... and the list goes on.


----------



## Liesje

Are they all equally important? Can being "better" in one area make up for a lack of something else? I'm guessing not, but since no dog is perfect, there must be some things that carry more weight when choosing? And would that also depend on what dog is being bred/bred to?

I find the process fascinating (and overwhelming!).


----------



## Vandal

> Quote: That's the crux of the issue for me, Anne. I am not a breeder, but as a potential buyer, why would I not be skeptical of someone saying one thing and doing something else? For me that does not instill a lot of faith in the breeding program. I'm not arguing against the importance of genetics or the value of linebreeding.


Well...first of all...I wasn't responding to your argument Liesje, I was talking about linebreeding. However, since you asked, I would say that if you are simply listening to what the breeder tells you , ( even if they do work their own dogs), and you know nothing about GSDs, all the differences that exist in bloodlines , the real strength found in a few of those older lines, ( yes, going back for generations because it does come through and that I have seen with my own eyes), then you are not going to get what you want in a dog because you don't KNOW what you want. It is not all on the breeder and maybe that's the problem nowadays. You have to be educated yourself and that requires that you go out and look at dogs, work dogs, listen to critiques at trials, ( and not just so you can compare what you think the score was to the judge's score), etc, etc. You cannot learn it on a bulletin board, you have to experience the DOGS . People simply cannot put some of these things in words, you have to see it, feel it, etc.

I didn't start breeding until I had worked dogs in SchH as the helper and handler for over 10 years, (and as I have said before, things were a lot different back then and so were the dogs). By then, I had a very good idea of the kind of dog I wanted to breed and what lines those dogs were coming from. As a helper, I experienced the rather dramatic differences in the bloodlines as well. However, along with seeing their behavior on the SchH field, I was also able to see the same dogs in different environments. You can and do get a very good idea of a dog's character when you observe their reactions to everyday events. In fact, I base much of what I think about a dog on that. Some of the behaviors you see on the SchH field can give you a big clue about how they will handle every day events and it can go the other way as well. I make a point to ask people about their dogs and how they behave at home before I work them as the helper. I have a very good idea , based on what they tell me about their dog,( even if they have never done SchH), just how that dog will react on the field and I am not very often wrong. That information also helps me decide what is the best way to approach the training. 

In that vein, I will tell you that a large number of people working in SchH can not distinguish what behaviors are coming from the dog genetically and which ones they have created themselves. That leads me to wonder, ( since some of them are breeders), how they are determining anything as far as breeding goes by working their dog. Others claim they "really" test their dog but mostly they are just squashing the dog, which doesn't leave much to see either. You, ( breeder or buyer), also have to understand enough about the dogs to recognize what the differences in the way a dog works in SchH, says about him. These are things you see with your own eyes and cannot really be expressed in words. Only after you gain that experience, do the things the breeders or sellers tell you have relevance. When I have purchased dogs, what the people tell me about the dog, I recognize because I have seen it and can therefore better decide if that is the right dog for me. IMO, you have to know something about the dogs from experience to glean anything of real importance from what the breeder or seller tells you about a GSD.


----------



## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: Vandal
> 
> 
> 
> Quote: That's the crux of the issue for me, Anne. I am not a breeder, but as a potential buyer, why would I not be skeptical of someone saying one thing and doing something else? For me that does not instill a lot of faith in the breeding program. I'm not arguing against the importance of genetics or the value of linebreeding.
> 
> 
> 
> Well...first of all...I wasn't responding to your argument Liesje, I was talking about linebreeding. However, since you asked, I would say that if you are simply listening to what the breeder tells you , ( even if they do work their own dogs), and you know nothing about GSDs, all the differences that exist in bloodlines , the real strength found in a few of those older lines, ( yes, going back for generations because it does come through and that I have seen with my own eyes), then you are not going to get what you want in a dog because you don't KNOW what you want. It is not all on the breeder and maybe that's the problem nowadays. You have to be educated yourself and that requires that you go out and look at dogs, work dogs, listen to critiques at trials, ( and not just so you can compare what you think the score was to the judge's score), etc, etc. You cannot learn it on a bulletin board, you have to experience the DOGS.
Click to expand...

Totally agree (well, from what I have experienced so far). But then it seems when one questions the extent that a breeder actually works and test (and thus truly _knows_) his or her dogs, then all the sudden the potential buyer is made out to be a narrow minded person for questioning that breeder because we can't possibly know enough about dogs to question their dogs or their breeding program.

Other than that, I don't disagree with anything you say or have said. My interest here is not in breeding dogs, or even considering breeding dogs. I'm interested as a potential buyer of dogs seeing lots of inconsistencies in the breeding programs brought up in this thread. But apparently you can't ask questions without getting labeled narrow minded, inexperienced, and elitist (don't those last two kind of cancel each other out anyway?).

So that's why I have asked and continue to ask, if a breeder can sing this great song about genetics and pedigrees, and has an irrefutable knowledge of both, is the buyer supposed to assume that this indicates the breeder is likewise working and testing their dogs in order to see what genetic traits are being expressed by their dogs, relatives, and progeny? And if the buyer is someone like me who takes almost nothing at face value and would never buy a dog without meeting the breeder, doing the research, and meeting/seeing the dogs, how does the buyer do so without stepping on the toes/ego of the breeder? I'm just wondering aloud in general, not exclusively about SchH dogs/lines/breeders.


----------



## lhczth

> Quote:So my question (to anyone) is, please expound on "know that" and "look at". Does that mean just looking at the papers? Looking at dogs (literally)? Visiting with dogs? Working dogs? ......


A good example for me is the Czech dogs. These dogs interest me, but so far I haven't used them in my breeding program because I don't know enough about them. I can look at individual dogs and I see recognizable names on a pedigree that other people tell me were great dogs, but I have not experienced these dogs myself. There are just too many unknows for me at this point in time.


----------



## Doc

I breed German shepherds. I do not title/work/show them. But no one can/will sit back and tell me or anyone else that I do not know my dogs. And that I can not know MY dogs just because I refuse to enter the circus and sporting events that are suppose to recognize outstanding dogs when they are in fact, a bunch of horse hockey with many judges that could not recognize a dog if it was lifting its leg on their shoe ... . Give me a break. I honestly beleive some people would argue with a sign post.

And you question why all the "old" breeders are not around?

I would take line breeding over chance breeding any day of the week. I do not know of any breeder that employees chance breeding coming close to the line breeding record of 90 champions in 12 years. Along with the top 4 ROM's in one year that were all linebred/inbred. You can't argue with success - but I'm sure someone will try.


----------



## GSD07

Wonderful posts that give so much food for thoughts!! 


> Originally Posted By: Vandal ...then you are not going to get what you want in a dog because you don't KNOW what you want.


I couldn't agree more. That's the conclusion I arrived myself to and I'm glad that some breeders think the same way. Very often on this board I hear the advice to choose the breeder first and then relax and pick up your dream pup when the time comes. 

My first dog was a heartbreak for me, pain for myself, my family and the dog. A couple of years full of misery and my life put on hold. I don't even blame the breeder, I blame myself because I wasn't honest with myself what I wanted and I got a 'fur baby' to take care of when I needed a 'DOG' to be a partner with, it was a fundamental mistake and I've learnt my lesson. 

So the second pup I was getting started from researching general lines first, then particular bloodlines, then looking what's from those bloodlines was available in the US, then looking for particular dogs, then looking for particular breeding combinations, then talking to progeny puppy owners and breeders and whoever I only could talk to and read whatever I could only read. Then I honestly assessed my needs and my current situation, lifestyle and access to facilities. Then I set my priorities and identified what I am willing to sacrifice and what is a deal breaker. Then I communicated everything to the breeder of my choice, placed the deposit and got my puppy. The result? A puppy of my dreams that fits my life like a glove and brings me joy every day and I can't count my blessings enough. Now, is this breeder and lines would be perfect for someone else just because I'm over the moon with my pup? I'm not so sure. 

My goal is to continue learning whatever I can in terms of history, genetics, pedigrees and also learn reading and understanding dogs to the point of becoming independent in my conclusions and have the confidence to listen to 'GSD authorities' but not let them dominate my thinking. 

In that case I wouldn't even need to care if the breeder works the dogs or is making the decisions based on paper because I would be able to work the dog and I would understand what hides behind the papers. I would also not feel bitter or taken advantage of my trust because I would not blindly grant my trust to the breeder to make a decision for me, I will share the decision making process. It's a long way ahead of me, I realize that, the figure 10 years doesn't seem unreasonable, but that's the only way to get a good dog as a buyer. I have a few role models on this board so I know that's possible


----------



## cliffson1

At the end of the day breeding requires knowledge of the various aspects (genetics, parents, temperament, working ability,etc). Indepth knowledge allows you to maybe cut a corner or two but it takes experience to do this. If you use pedigrees but only know the NAMES on the pedigrees but not indepth knowledge of the dominant /recessive traits of the names what do you have...if you go by seeing the dogs and seeing them work but can't read whether the dominant/recessive aspects of what you are watching is genetic or created through training or covered up BY training then what have you got?? The same with breeders, I put more emphasis on the individual doing the breeding than the titles or championships. When I talk to a breeder INDEPTH about working, pedigrees, priorites in their breeding program, the success of their program, these are the things that are important to me.JMO


----------



## GSD07

Isn't that interesting, the further you go, the more you know there are still more questions left than answers ... 

I thought reading pedigrees implies in depth knowledge about the dogs otherwise what's the point. Just to learn the German pronunciation?







I'll never be proficient in this but again, I'll never be a breeder either or a world class competitor. I have my own agenda


----------



## Nelly

> Quote:IMO, good breeding requires both. One must understand the pedigrees/history AND the individual dogs themselves.
> 
> As the old saying goes "Pedigree will tell you what a dog should be. The dog tells you who he really is."
> 
> Seeing how the individual dog stacks up to his pedigree, in terms of whether or not he actually represents that pedigree and the traits one would expect him to have based on that pedigree is as important as understanding the pedigree itself.
> 
> I've seen a couple absolute fantastic dogs with horrendous pedigrees. On paper, the dog shouldn't amount to anything. In reality, the dog amounts to a lot. On the flip side, I've seen some dogs with fantastic pedigrees who themselves were very poor examples of the breed.
> 
> I would not breed either dog. I wouldn't breed the good dog with the bad pedigree, or the bad dog with the good pedigree. Because the pedigree tells me what genetics to expect, which may or may not be expressed or hidden in the dog, and the dog tells me what genetics he expresses. Looking at close relatives and what genetics they express also provides important information on what genes may be hidden in the dog, that he may not express himself but may pass onto progeny. When those things don't match up well and a dog is a fluke and doesn't represent his genetics you have no idea what the results will be. To me, a fluke isn't a good dog for breeding, no matter how nice the dog OR his pedigree may be.
> 
> The problem I see with so many breeders is they understand neither. Or they understand only one.. they look only at the dogs, but don't understand the pedigrees, or they look only at the pedigrees but don't understand the dogs.


Good post, I agree








I was disappointed by the breeder of my female when he suggested I breed from her, she has failed hips (one borderline/mild dysplasia) but mostly lacks in temperament low/med drive and poor nerves. His argument was that her pedigree could produce- her parents were good dogs, some of her siblings were but some had the same issues as her what's more have see some nerve issues from close relatives mostly from her dam line. She was not just a one off bad fluke there seems to be a common issue here.
I do know of average/poorer females producing something but personally I would never purchase a dog if one parent was really lacking in working ability. The breeder went on about her genotype could produce something, but we don't know until she is bred and what happens if I am stuck with a bunch of weak nerved pups like my own







? The breeder never mentioned that phenotype is part of genotype, the genes that she expresses can also be passed down- even if some pups of hers would have been ok I would be concerned about when they are to be used for breeding they may reproduce their dams temperament - I can't help but think if breeders are in it for the long term they are not really going to be wanting to muddy the genetics of future generations for those kind of problems.


----------



## cliffson1

You're right Oksana, Take pedigrees for instance, many people know Bernd v Lierberg and that he had great conformation for his time and that he produced super temperament. So they see Bernd in the pedigree and say Ahhh, this is a good thing. And it may well be, but do they know the individual strengths and weaknesses of the Lierberg line. Do they know which weaknesses tend to manifest when you double up on this line too intensely, (like stubbonness, curled tails, coats, dullness,etc.) Now if you are not familar with these and many other recessives and say the partner you are breeding to has issues with any of these things in their lines, then you have a recipe for a negative recessive to become more prevalent in your litter. I also look at the linebreeding of the parents and grandparents to see what is already intensified. This is a basic advantage of European pedigrees in that they show linebreeding right on the pedigree to give you a start down that path. I look at linebreeding for both parents and four grandparents, now I have idea what is somewhat saturated and then I must be knowledgable of the saturated (linebred) dogs. Here in America many many breeders don't know the linebreeding of the puppy, or the parents, and certainly the grandparents.(Not all but few). Then when you talk to them IF they know the linebred dogs they usually know them in name and what their accomplishments were. Remeber, accomplishments were man made and are subject to who's hands they are in and will not necessary pass genetically. this is why i shake my head when I see somebody say they are going to breed a litter, and then the internet poilce come on and say WELL.....if the hips, elbows, and titles are there you are probably doing a "reputable" breeding. AGH!!!! Breeding is an art and science all in one. JMO! So to do the indepth analysis, to be a reputable breeder, to MY way of thinking, you certainly must have a handle on the kind of information that "DOC" trys to convey. Hey but in this day we don't need indepth knowledge we have titles, certifications, healthtests, and somehow the breed is slipping backwards.....Oh Well!!


----------



## Smithie86

> Originally Posted By: Chris WildAll of the above.
> Look at the papers and pedigree and understand what they mean.
> Look at the dog to see size, structure, movement, pigment, dentation, ears.... does it look like a GSD?
> Visit with the dog to see how it is "off the field" in everyday social settings, different environments, ability to settle and relax during down time, watch the interactions with known people and strangers, children, other dogs, other animals.
> Work the dog to understand its drives, thresholds, nerves, work ethic, willingness to be part of a team and take direction, courage, ability to handle pressure, resiliency... and the list goes on.



Yes. How the dog us on the field and how the dog is off the field in different situations, different people etc shows the true character and nerve of the dog.


----------



## Nelly

I agree with most of what cliff says and I like researching but those comments the lierbergs produced stubborness, curled tails, dullness assuming they came from gsd-euro ? The poster also claimed the potential for health problems if linebreeding on the lierbergs but I have a hard time believing all this because,

1. If it did come from personnel experience of the poster shouldn't they back it up with pedigrees of linebreedings he did- so how close the dogs with problems really were to the lierbergs
2. If it was second-hand knowledge back it up with who it came from 

I have already asked the poster this with no luck







It is not that I don't necessarily believe it....but it would be nice to have that extra above information to add more validity to it all


----------



## Vandal

Well, I guess I can comment since I have seen lots of dogs from those lines , ( close in the pedigree as well), over the years. I don't much care for the term stubborn, and I have a number of reasons for that I won't discuss right now. However, I think what people are referring to is a case where the dogs from that line can have very high thresholds. If you compound those lines too much, ( which is pretty hard to do nowadays if you ask me), you can get dogs that are very hard to reach or maybe hard to stimulate would be a way to put it that people can understand. It is harder to get a dog to react when what you do has less of an effect on them. This can be viewed as being stubborn but mostly, IMO, it is a case where you just can't touch or reach the dog in a way that gets a reaction. You see lots of flash in the way a Mal does obedience because they are so easy to reach. That is the opposite of what Cliff is talking about. I guess you could also call it dullness, but these dogs are ones who would make good 911 operators. They don't rattle, at all, so, they don't respond as quickly. These are dogs that you would want to use as a foundation and then add some lines to bring a little zip into the picture. Mostly nowadays we see more zip and less of this really stable temperament. It is all a balance and you use the differences in the lines to try to achieve it. A little like a swinging pendulum where you are trying to get it to stop in the center.


----------



## Vandal

I just want to add one more thing. Back when the Lierbergs were around there were other lines that were similar as far as nerves and thresholds. Ajax vom Haus Dexel comes to mind along with a few others. So, I do not think this is simply a case of coming from the Lierbergs because the lines they combined them with were similar in many ways with a higher level of what I call toughness, another trait that can be viewed as stubbornness I guess. I did not really experience that in the dogs I worked in obedience but we did use more compulsion back then and that did seem to be the "right way" to reach those dogs. Where I saw some problems occasionally was in the protection work. These were not dogs you could raise drive by only wiggling a rag. Like I said, the dogs really had to see helpers who gave them a reason to bite and I did see a few dogs who would simply sit there, totally unimpressed, and yawn at the helper.


----------



## GSD07

> Originally Posted By: VandalLike I said, the dogs really had to see helpers who gave them a reason to bite and I did see a few dogs who would simply sit there, totally unimpressed, and yawn at the helper.


Anne, how did you deal with those dogs in order to reach them? Or they were called 'lacking drive' and washed out?

Thank you so much to Cliff and you and Chris for taking time and going into details in your answers!


----------



## Vandal

That would depend on who owned the dog. Most people in Schh are in a big hurry and were back then as well, ( at least the ones in the US were). Then there were those who just didn't bother to try to understand who their dog was. That's a really big part of training, knowing your dog, and sometimes, it takes a couple of years to figure that part out. Hard to do when sometimes there are people telling you your dog is a POS and that happened alot as well. I had a group of people at my club tell me that about one of my dogs once. They did kind of an intervention at training where they told me I was a better trainer than that and should not "waste my time" on a dog like that. He was a year old at the time and I have to say, I still laugh when I think about those same people bragging to others about what a great dog that was two years later. 

With the dogs I am talking about. you had to find a helper who could impress the dog or find a situation that did. Something that disturbed the dog enough to get you in the door, so to speak. Then you had to make sure to not always try to get in the door the same way or use to much force to do it because then you ended up with a reactive dog who needed to see a lot of threat from the helper to bring that drive. It was a case of touching that aggression and then channeling it. Most people just could not do that back then and you would see lots of dogs who needed alot of threat to stay in drive.Some people tried the flanking stuff which always made me feel kind of sick to see and still does. When I hear about people doing that I think they are just dumb or untalented or both.

I would not say these dogs lacked drive, but there was a different balance, ( and intelligence), than what I have seen more of nowadays. I use the same approach today on dogs who have been simply bored with the training and need a bit of a wake up call. SchH trainers are amazingly repetitive and boring nowadays and I see so many dogs who just will not bite. Yeah they are on the sleeve but they are not biting. Mostly , they are not in drive in the same way these older dogs were hard to get into drive but this is more a training problem IMO.

Sure, there are dogs like those old dogs nowadays , in fact I have one now. He wasn't interested in doing protection when he was under a year of age. I had a couple of trainers here from Belgium who tried to play with him and he did the same thing, kind of took the rag and looked disinterested. I waited for him to get older and then we started him the old fashioned way, with suspicion work. Now he is over two and an absolute powerhouse in protection. One of the best dogs I have ever owned and a throwback to those old dogs in many ways. I approached the training the same way with him as I did with those dogs. I waited until he had matured enough to possess the drives I wanted to have the helper work with and I used situations that would trigger a reaction. I did not have a real talented helper to work with, so, I had to be a bit more cleaver. This is a very balanced dog just like those dogs years ago but he had to have the right work and a patient handler to get started on the right foot. I think many people would have pushed it and most likely ruined the dog. I sold a dog out of the same father to a woman who wanted to do SchH. She called me when he was 10 months old and said he was not cut out for SchH, wasn't interested. Well....that's a bit too young to decide that but I am pretty tired of trying to convince people of these things. You can't see what I am talking about unless you have the ability to do it, most don't have that ability so, what's the point in telling them anything?

I tell my helper, or the ones I am trying to teach, that my dogs will not bite children. Good GSDs are bred to know the difference between what a threat is and is not. So, if they stand in the blind with the attitude of a child, the dog will not be bringing all they have inside to the work. The dogs from those lines always seemed to possess this really wonderful judgement, even though they also possessed a great deal of aggression. If you think about it, it is easy to understand why. Their nerves and this higher threshold to stress, allowed them the ability to "think" before they reacted.


----------



## gagsd

edited out.


----------



## Nelly

Thankyou Vandal









Lots of information to think about


----------



## cliffson1

Nelly, i acquire my information from many many sources; people, events, history, and personal experiences. I couldn't begin to remember all the many many converstions or articles, or boards, or anything else that supplies me with my information but over the years i have learned enough to be able to assess credible information most of the time. In reference to the Lierbergs, i have researched and bred on these lines from both West dogs and DDR/Czech dogs. With Czech dogs everybody knows i am a big Held v Ritterberg fan, have had two Reiko v Hena-C progeny, who was 2-3,4 on Held, who's mother was 2-2 on Bernd. Out of the one female from Reiko I have had 42 pups that I have bred. Maybe that gives me a little insight into something about the Lierbergs.
I don't have the time nor interest to address all the traits i generalized about the Lierbergs, though I will say that Anne correctly interpreted what i meant by stubbonness and dull(thresholds). But I will address the curled tail assertion because it deals with my experience and not any forums or secondhand information. I imported a dog sired by Gandalf v Oberhausener-Kreuz. Gandalf had this type of tail. Gandalf is linebred 3-3 on Falko vom Haus Sindern. Falko is linebred 4-4,5 on the Lierbergs(Bodo, Bernd, Gin). BTW, my male, Olex Aritar Bastet, out of Gandalf also had this tail and has produced it in my breedings. This is part of my basis for believing this tail trait to be in the Lierberg line and it is first-hand for me. Obviously, information posted by me goes to my credibility and you may have a low regard for my credibilty, this is fine! But, I wanted to show you that when I make assertions you can be reasonably sure I have confirmed the information from different sources like a newspaper. I will not get into justifying everything i write with naming people or sources, I would suggest that you pay no attention to what I write, but I chose the Lierbergs as an example for a reason of familarity and not for a season...peace!


----------



## Nelly

I was mostly talking about BB on gsd-euro, but I guess if anyone makes broad comments it would be nice to see some back up.

I don't mean to want people to explain every little detail but I am glad you gave your experiences with your lines. Thankyou


----------



## cliffson1

One of the great sources of information is from credible people over the years. Just like in the past history was often passed down by word of mouth with many cultures, the same is done in the GSD world. You don't see this much anymore because of the internet and books and video media. These things are all fine but you can't ask questions of the latter two, and the internet if you ask a question people challenge you on what your doing and tell you what you should have and "never answer your question " Over the years I have had long indepth conversations with German Shepherd people(in my early years mostly listening), to learn a lot of what I know. Sitting at a table with Ernie Loeb in Bill Alexander's kitchen and listening him talk GS for hours. Picking the brain of Colonel Castlebury of the United States Army, who was one of the creators of the Army Bio-sensor(superdog) breeding program. Many many hours of conversations with Joe Kuhns and Carmen Duggan on East dogs . Talking with Paul Hombach indepth about the Enno/Drigon line which I also had an Enno grandson through Arko vom Rossbach, back in early eighties. Went to dinner with Tommy Jensen and closed the place out talking Scandinavian dogs, and I could site many many more. Its not how many people but the people who have a wealth of knowledge/experience and love to talk dogs, to gain moreinformation for them, and impart theirs to the ones that want to learn. This is becoming a lost art as people are so cynical and combative that it is difficult to exchange info back and forth for long periods of time without something negative bringing the conversation down or changing the conversation. This is why I like to see Doc's posts because he often offers good info that confirms or enlightens my info base. In terms of breeding many of these people were from a generation when the testing and certs were less and the dogs were better from a GS point of view(IMO). So I value this information and still use it to make breeding decisions as opposed to the breeding ordinances of today that reputable breeders use to create the dogs of today. Hope i didn't bore anybody, no more from me on this subject, but i guess people need to know YOUR basis for what you say to believe it...peace!


----------



## RubyTuesday

> Quote:That's what pisses me off about these breeders. I don't care about exact height and weight or whatever, but show me 120+lb dogs that are out their working and competing! Unless the breeder has examples, that's just lying.


Lies, it’s disingenuous to link misrepresentation with just breeders of oversized or companion lines GSDs. Misrepresentation is rife among poor breeders, including those breeding working lines & show lines. Another thread you participated in provided numerous examples of oversized GSDs working as guide dogs, SAR, therapy dogs & law enforcement K-9s. To insist oversized working GSDs don’t exist is as unfair as claiming working dogs can’t be good family dogs.




> Quote: You cannot expect to get great quality dogs everytime if you take dogs and breed them simply based on pedigree, what dogs are there several generations back, but never actually testing their temperaments, soundness, courage, and drive in ways that truly tell you about your dog.


IF I was breeding, I’d be titling/working my dogs as well as seeking advice from knowledgeable breeders precisely b/c I don’t have the in depth knowledge & background to forego <u>formal</u> training. Many breeders have the requisite knowledge & understanding to breed intelligently without titling their dogs. 

Certainly all breeders should work & train their dogs, but it’s wrong to assume that dogs lacking titles are strictly pets. Many people work & train their dogs in their homes, on their farms & ranches or in the pursuit of recreational activities. I’m not opposed to Schutzhund, but nothing I’ve read here or elsewhere convinces me it’s useful in selecting some characteristics which are of paramount importance to me.




> Quote: I breed German shepherds. I do not breed SchH dogs or show dogs. I breed German shepherds that have the ability be trained to do many things besides SchH and shows.


 …My preferred kinda GSD…I meet (& already know) many, many GSD lovers who feel exactly the same. Unfortunately, most feel unwelcome here, particularly in the breeding section. It's (IMO) ironic as h*e*c*k that we can't use words stronger than 'darn' but we can freely call others dishonest & unethical. Now that's both silly & *darned* sad. 




> Quote: How can one argue or question the success with linebreeding and inbreeding?


Unfortunately too often that success has been defined as what wins regardless of underlying problems with dogs’ health & temperament. Linebreeding/inbreeding is fraught with dangers even experienced, knowledgeable, careful breeders can’t always avoid. While the visible results can be gratifying, beneath the surface undesirable genes accumulate & what s/b ‘rare recessives’ becomes distressingly common.

Judicious outcrossing doesn’t need to yield ‘a ‘hodgepodge’. Breeding unrelated dogs that share desirable mental & physical characteristics naturally tends to produce sound pups who often share the desired characteristics. IMO, consistent quality is possible while maintaining genetic diversity.

Anne & Clifton, your above posts are terrific. Interesting, absorbing & with a great deal to ponder. You should co-author a book.


----------



## pam

Anne and Clifton, there are those of us who deeply appreciate this new kind of kitchen table and the opportunity to glean sound, in-depth information from individuals such as yourselves. The fact that we do not post simply means that we are listening.....

Thank you.


----------



## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: RubyTuesdayLies, it’s disingenuous to link misrepresentation with just breeders of oversized or companion lines GSDs. Misrepresentation is rife among poor breeders, including those breeding working lines & show lines. Another thread you participated in provided numerous examples of oversized GSDs working as guide dogs, SAR, therapy dogs & law enforcement K-9s. To insist oversized working GSDs don’t exist is as unfair as claiming working dogs can’t be good family dogs.


I was speaking with specific breeders in mind. I don't feel it appropriate to start naming names but in my search for a puppy before I got Nikon I came across several breeders breeding and selling dogs out of standard in more ways than one, and on their sites the dogs were advertised as being "suitable for", "perfect for" things like police K9, SAR, Schutzhund, etc but could not find anything to substantiate that the breeding dogs or any dogs from these kennels (at least in the past 10 years) were doing these activities.

That's really my main beef, not that I don't think large dogs can or that I don't believe there's a fer that do, but that I see so much misleading and blatantly false advertising of dogs it makes me sick. And that's not just "pet lines" or "olde world" dogs either.

My motto when it comes to dogs is simply "call a spade a spade". I don't really care who breeds what or whether it's exactly what *I* would buy or breed, but I do care when people misrepresent their dogs and/or print ridiculously false information about other dogs and dog sports just to promote themselves.


----------



## FredD

Ruby Tuesday, You hit the nail right on the Head! Along with Ann & Clifton, your posts are a pleasure to read.


----------

