# Lines of GSL Having Not Rec'd Pronounced



## jfisher (Dec 29, 2005)

Before I even go on, of all the GSD bloodlines, German showlines are currently the lines I know <u>least</u> about, which is why I am trying to learn more about them. I found this post over on the PDB and it seemed really interesting to me. I do not recognize many of the names with the exception of some of the ridiculously popular ones, so I am wondering if this posters research looks correct to some of the people here that know more about GSL dogs. If it seems accurate, I thought it would be a good place for me to start learning about GSL pedigrees.

Here's the link:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/forum/14399.html
Thanks for any info!

-Jackie


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I'm really no expert about Showlines, but going from the Sieger videos that get posted every year, I don't think that a "pronounced" means anything at all when given at a Sieger show.
The difference between a working line prounounced at the World's, and a Show line prounounced (regardless of the dog - with only some execptions), is like night and day. 

My mutt, that I do Schutzhund with, can show more power and strenght than most of those dogs, yet she isn't what I would consider Schutzhund material. 

If you are interested in learning about lines that are known to have retained good working ability, there are lots of people on this site that can give you some recommendations as to which breeders and which lines to look at.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: CastlemaidI'm really no expert about Showlines, but going from the Sieger videos that get posted every year, I don't think that a "pronounced" means anything at all when given at a Sieger show.


Exactly. I'm watching all of the male bitework tests right now. Some of the ones passing.....wth?!?! 

There are some nice showlines, but more often than not these dogs are from smaller kennels, lesser known exhibitors, and don't always have the time or the cash to show up at the BSZS only to be shut out by the latest ring fad. It's hard to say if there are any well known lines that consistently produce solid working dogs because so few show people even care.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I do not think in today's SchH that one can safely assume *anything* based on a score or TSB rating.

If the club/judge where the score/TSB rating were a known quantity, than perhaps. But in general, particularly with show line dogs (or more accurately, show line clubs and judges), no assumptions can be made.

Just look at Sieger show videos. These dogs are supposed to be the best in the world. All SchH3s with lots of "pronounced" ratings. And here they pass again, often with yet more "pronounced" ratings, with work so horrible it wouldn't even earn a title, much less a decent TSB rating, at a real trial under a real judge.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

In just one of the segments from the recent BSZS I saw dogs miss the sleeve, chew the sleeve, come off and re-bite, bite way up at the elbow with just the front teeth, come down the field and do almost a complete halt before biting, out and run back to the owner....and these dogs *passed*. But I am also seeing dogs doing the exact same thing and *not* passing, so I'm not only astonished that some are passing with these performances, but why they are and others (fairly) are not. Hmmmm.....


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## GSDextrodinaire (Dec 15, 2002)

To the original poster, if you are looking to get a more accurate picture of show line ability or inability...then honestly you will not find that at any sieger show. In the information provided at the link you posted, what would be more helpful for folks to know is which of the dogs in those lines actually have real working dog titles, (not bought ones) and what the scores were. 

If you are interested in the lines, say for working ability, then the information provided on that link will not be helpful. I base my opinion on knowing several Ursus line dogs who really do work, and do so in working dog venues. The USA has several dogs with Ursus as the grandsire, and those dogs are well known for their working ability. To further muddy the waters, the ones in the USA known for their working ability aren't treated like show dogs and the owners are more interested in the working aspect of the breed over the countless hours of running a dog in a circle to the left.

This is why it is so very important for breeders interested in finding studs or potential owners looking for upcoming litters to KNOW what they want from the puppies produced. Is the main goal to run the circle to the left, or is it to produce dogs that have honest heart and working ability? You won't find the breeding stock for work at a sieger show. You will find pretty dogs who move nicely and whose owners or breeders have the singluar goal of producing cookie cutter dogs who will look nice running in a circle to the left.

Additionally, the problem is also that there are GSL dogs who are flukes. 100 out of a 1,000 might have heart and working ability (my guess at %) but to consistently produce working ability in GSL dogs is very difficult. As time progresses, as long as breeders continue to breed for looks and not the true heart of the dog, what we see at the sieger shows in the next 10 years will be 100 times worse than what we have seen in the last 10. 

In regard to the dogs presented at the sieger shows...it is very difficult to exhibit a dog at the German Sieger Show. Especially if you live in the USA. 1)The dog has to be shown in Germany prior to the sieger show(within a certain timeframe). 2) if you aren't associated with a well known high producing kennel you start with a few strikes against you already 3) your dog may have the best performance test there, have good scores in the scorebook at working dog trials, but it won't matter 4) most will tell you, the top VA dogs are already chosen before the dogs even hit the performance test field. 5) dogs shown more often winning V ratings in germany will always do better than any other dogs presented.

With that kind of deck stacked against you when exhibiting, what do you think owners and handlers spend the majority of their time preparing for? it certainly isn't the performance test, it is showing at shows, running the ring, and road work to strengthen those hideous back ends.


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## jfisher (Dec 29, 2005)

Dee,

I appreciate you taking the time to post. I already learned something new in the requirements for showing in the Sieger show. I did not know some of those previously.

My favored lines of the GSD are the German and Czech working lines. I appreciate and understand the importance of anatomy, and good structure and movement. However, I believe temperament and working ability to be every bit as important. I think the working lines exemplify both sides of this.

I only wanted to learn more about the show lines for my own experience. I really enjoy having as much general knowledge as I can on a subject that interests me, and on top of that, I have always believed it to be important that you have extensive knowledge and understanding of BOTH sides of any argument/viewpoint. Therefore, I simply want to increase my knowledge of the GSL bloodlines and history. I was just looking for the best place to start, as I am finding it can be very confusing knowing where to begin. (I should note I have difficulties with that in other areas as well...I can continue or finish a project or research, but I very often need one place or idea to start me off)

So thanks again for the informative post. If you have any other ideas as to where would be the best place for me to begin educating myself on the GSL in general, I'd love to hear them. Sure, just from being on and reading this board and a few others, I pick up bits and pieces of info here and there, but I'm looking for something more along the lines of say, if I wanted to write a report or research paper on the GSL in general. Hopefully you get where I'm coming from...I appreciate the help!









-Jackie


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Dee, I must respectfully disagree with your assertion that you won't find the breeding stock of showline dogs at the Seiger show. I submit to you that you take that 10 percent of the showlines that you say are actively working and ask to see their pedigree. I will bet you a dollar to a donut that the pedigree of these dogs are the exact same dogs that are in the Seiger show. If that is the case then the "BREEDING STOCK" of these dogs you attest to are the same as the dogs in the Seiger show. You just happen to be looking at the 10 percent that works. Now who is going to go to get a dog to work from breeding stock that produces 10 percent work. Same genetics there!! All you can say is those dogs themselves will work, but as breeding stock they produce the same thing that they are made up of and that is the same dogs that are at the Seiger shows.


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## GSDextrodinaire (Dec 15, 2002)

Clifton,

I LOVE it when you call me on my comments! You really make me think and delve deeper to make my point. Thanks! BTW love the dollar to donut bet.

What I was trying to say, and guess I failed is ...that if someone is looking for breeding stock and the only place you are looking is a sieger show, what you see is not a good basis for making a breeding decision. Based on my experience as an observer at a sieger shows, very rarely do I see a dog either in the ring or in the performance test that makes me say, "WOW! that's a dog I can see breeding to my females." This is because I don't base my breeding plans on the outcome of a dog's performance at a sieger show. If I like a dog, then I want to see how that dog really works. I want to see it in a trial, I want to see the scorebook, and sadly, that doesn't happen with a lot of the dogs that are "ranked" high in conformation. 

Your comment about same genetics is very true. That's where it is important to know if the dog's courage and grip behavior is a training issue or that the dog just doesn't have heart. Or does the dog have the heart and just happened to be rushed through titles. 

Again, the problem lies in breeders paying more attention to the outcome of the ring and not close enough attention to the heart of the dog. JMO


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Dee, first I want to commend you for being able to have dialogue without becoming defensive. That's a pleasure. As for your comments, where we part ways is on owning vs breeding in terms of training or lack of heart being important in showlines. If you are talking about owning a good showline that works it is very important to assess whether the dog's strength is natural or training. As far as breeding showlines, until you have showlines that have added bloodlines that are different from what you see in the Seiger show, then you can't comfortably breed to any of them without probably getting the same dismal results. The genes are all the same! Showlines have to introduce new bloodlines unrelated to past 30 years or you cannot reasonsibly breed these dogs and expect uniformity of temperament. And after all, if anything should be consistent in a litter it should be temperament. We can't all be pretty, but we can have very high percent of character.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Cliff can I ask you a question about genetics? How far back do genes effect a dog? For example say there is a dog that is weak in one or more areas and it is considered "genetic" weakness. Say the dog has several dogs in the 3 or 4-gen pedigree that are known to be good dogs, well used and even line-bred on. If this dog is considered genetically weak, does that reflect poorly on these more popular dogs, or only the parents, or....? I'm not talking showlines, just in general. Hopefully this is not too off topic, I've just been meaning to ask people who know a lot about genetics. The reason I ask is b/c so often we hear/read that good work and good temperament is simply genetic (not disagreeing). But what about the dog from all the dogs who are supposed to be genetically sound that turns out poorly? Is that a fluke? So often I see dogs being promoted based on the good dogs 3, 4, 5 gens back in the pedigree, and then I see a dog that is not sound at all with these same dogs. Is it just a bad combination of sire/dam? If so, then how come when a great combination exists it seems to be further attributed farther back in the pedigree? 

Anywa, not that I breed or know much about genetics, but it does seem to make sense that the showlines will need to breed in new blood from working lines to really improve. It seems exactly as you say - there are so few good working show lines and the ones that are have the same bloodlines so they cannot really be used selectively or that just further tightens the gene pool.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Lies, First let me say that being as the German Shepherd is comprised of at least 4 different working/herding dogs, and they have all been comingled over the past, then you can get a variety of combinations in a litter. Having said that, there are dogs that historically have passed certain traits. There were weak showlines all the way back to Roland von Starkenburg in 1906,7. Their were also strong dogs back then that usually had an abundance of Horand blood. Most of the strong dogs were the lines that populated the field champions and the herding dogs. Still you could get strong dogs through Roland as people often bred the stronger dogs to Roland lines to get the beauty and temperament. The German showlines of today go primarily through three dogs. Canto/Quanto/Mutz. Canto and Quanto had the L litter Winereau in them and this was a very weak tempered litter that had an overabundance of the dogs back to Roland. Mutz did not go through the L litter Winereau. His lines had much more field champions and herding stock. Back in the early seventies you could get some world class working dogs out of the Wienerau lines but not consistently.At that point they had enough blood from other lines to occaisionally spit out some good working dogs. Look up the dog Cliff v Huhnegrab. Think he went back to Quanto and he was great working dog and produced some nice working dogs. But show breeders have bred back and forth to Canto/Quanto dogs for thirty years now without the introduction of any other blood except Mutz. By the year 2000 there was only two out of 12 main showlines that had a lot of Mutz. These two lines had such superior working abilities to the Canto/Quanto stuff. Now there are no lines that really have more Mutz than Canto/Quanto AND nothing else has been entered in either. So...you start with historically a weak line that went back to Roland, then from 1980 to now you have just bred this stuff back and forth with different variations but no genetic diversity. Every once in a while you will get a showline with good working ability, just as every once in a while you will get workingline dogs with weak nerves.But thats because until the Wienerau creation, the top dogs had all the different lines in them but people made breeding decisions on dogs that would bring balance to what was lacking. You see its not only the same color, but it is the genetics. There are working and herding line dogs that are black and tan as was Mutz. But the show people won't introduce these dogs because they are not extreme in structure. It is impossible to improve the temperament of showlines using the same lines they have used for thirty years. It was impossible 20 years ago and nobody did, it was impossble 10 years ago and nobody has done it and it is impossible now!!! The saturation is just too too strong. And that's why the good workinglines won't breed to these dogs. Nothwithstanding the fact that the structure of today's showlines isn't conducive to lengthy hard work, but you introduce to your breeding a saturation of weakness that will undoubtedly increase your production of weak nerves significantly. That's irresponsible if you want to maintain the nobility of the breed. In the next ten years it will get worse if they use the same bloodlines for Seigers as they have done for past thirty years.....not because I say so, but because of genetics.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Wow, thanks Cliff! However I'm still curious as to my other question (first paragraph above). I'm trying to learn more about how genetics contributes to temperament and am sometimes confused because I see one dog labeled as having "good genetics" and another as being "genetically weak" but sometimes these dogs have similar pedigrees, or the same famous/great dogs in their pedigrees so I am confused as to what this says about the famous/great dogs being more heavily used or line-bred on. Hopefully that makes sense...


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

It is difficult to understand what you mean when you say great dogs. Great for what??? Great for temperament, Great for conformation, great for both???. Without knowing who you are calling great and what the great is for than it is difficult to answer your question. There are many dogs that have great temperament but do not produce it. Basically, genetics determines temperament. that's why you have to know not only your dogs but what they produce. I just don't understand what you are seeking as it seems to me that it is clear that temperament is about genetics. You have to clarify what is great and who you are talking about. then I can analyze it.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Cliff, that was great info. A few years back I was big into studying the older dogs and lines. I liked look for the breeding pattern of some kennels, like two line breeding then an outcross. But that got so hard to find I just gave up. I wasn't and still am not educated about bloodlines, but there are/were certain pups I wouldn't look at because of a heavy concentration of some lines I just didn't like.

Lies, even dogs that have a weakness in nerve unfortunately can be good producers in that they stronly produce what they are. I think if people looked more past 3,4, and 5 generations and looked at back massing they might have a different opinion/understanding of what line breeding is.

Then there was the whole love affair with VA dogs. There were many a nice V rated dog back 20+ years that could have brought good things to the table, but between the love affair with the VA's and not doing outcrossed has taken it's toll.

I like/admire the older showlines, very few current, I look at pedigree's that boast X number of VA's in the pedigree and say SO. To use an anology showlines are like NASCAR cars, they are pretty much all the same with different names.

These are just my uneducated thoughts.

Val


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Thanks Cliff I will PM you since I'm probably getting off topic. The scenario I've run into is with working line dogs.

Val, I agree, I wish VA really meant something. Now I feel like it just means that the dog has had the luck of being so heavily promoted in shows and in breeding, and is so type-y that I'd want to _avoid_ them.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Since you have professed your lack of knowledge in breeding and genetics, why do always have comments to make about subject you admitily know nothing about?


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Why do you always pick on Lies? Seriously every thread like this, if she says something, you rag on her.

I had nothing to say other than that. This Mommy is backing out of room after telling you to play nicely.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

So, if we ignore snarky, accusotory, attacking comments, in response to people's questions, are we condoning the negative attitude, or are we showing that we are above such petty behaviour? 

Doc, I completely agree with your observation from other threads that the best way to educate people is to be nice to them. I think you should set yourself as an example of kindness and helpfulness for the rest of us to follow.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

You are right Lucia, I will exhibit respect to all in here. All I ask is the same. I don't care if you disagree, but at least have some factual rebuttal if you say I am wrong.

I may be old, out dated, not in touch with today's crowd, but I do know what I am talking about. I think if you studied and reflect on the information I submit long enough you find it could be helpful.


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

Kudos to Clifton. That post is probably one of the best yet easily understood explanations of why we got to this point in the road.

I was talking to a German judge a couple of years ago and made a simple suggestion. I suggested that to return working ability back to the breed, the SV just needs to start putting up dogs with colors other than red and black saddle in the VA category. (Which they used to do up to the early 70s) Ironically, because of the close breeding that the SV showlines had been deliberately evolved into, SL breeders will have to go outside the Quanto/Canto lines just to produce different colored dogs. The suggestion is so simple it just might work.
What are the chances it might actually happen?
I would not bet a dollar and a donut.
There is a predominant belief among the SV majority in Germany that the "export success" of the GSD is based on its looks. One of its goals as a breed organization is to have financially successful breeders. And there is a strong assumption that the GSD's popularity worldwide (according to FCI data, the most popular pure bred dog in the world) is based on the standardized aesthetics of the red and black dogs produced by the Quanto/Canto lines. As far as I know, this is a belief which is not empirically tested or proven but it strongly drives SV behavior. From a business point of view the only thing that would change this behavior is if GSD popularity actually goes down. Unfortunately, in a lot of emerging markets like China and India, the GSD is not showing any slippage in popularity. This slippage in popularity which could actually bring sanity back, might eventually happen once the GSD develops a reputation as a fear biter. The way things are going, that looks like the road where we're headed.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Ocean, Back at ya! Excellent post! 
You see I feel there are only three main reasons that people have bred these dogs into the current color/type pigeonhole. 1) Stupidity and ignorance of what they are doing, 2) they LIKE this creation of the Black and Red showdog,(Liking a dog is a reason to buy a dog, Never to breed a dog), 3) And the reason that Ocean so well articulated. Now I believe that the third reason is the driving force behind the continuance of this breeding in spite of the downward spiral of temperament. But here is the irony!!!, when the internet police are putting down "backyard breeders", the two main criticisms I hear are these breeders are doing it for "money" and they don't have health checks......Well if you read Ocean's post and see the deterioration of the Mental health of these dogs, somebody tell me what is the difference in what both are doing?? Money and Health checks???????? Just a high falutin version of the same thing and both are not good for the breed, but one group gets slammed and the other gets a pass......Think about it!


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