# The anatomy of a dog trainer



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

So in a private discussion, someone asked me what books I would recommend and that got me to thinking about how different educational materials and experiences have effected my training style and efficacy over the years. This got me to thinking about what makes a good trainer. I decided to share my thoughts here and I invite discussion on the topic. What materials, trainers and experiences have driven your journey as a trainer?

I think training dogs is an art, and like many artistic adventures, the ability of the artist is a combination of education, experience and success at putting it all together into a functioning style. I am a woodworker, a chef, a professional musician and I paint guns for a living. I can directly compare my education, experience and successes in each of these fields and I believe that doing the work nets me success in each of these areas and taking the easy, short method nets me questionable results and more work in the long run to achieve what I would call success.

I think this will probably be long, so I will break things up into several posts to make things easier to discuss. 

I'm going to take the nerd out for a run and think about how to frame this in a way that is easy to discuss. I sincerely invite your input.


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## emlesnick (Oct 14, 2021)

David thanks for posting here

I have had some small experience training schutzhund, but luckily I was around very talented people. From the stuff I’ve been reading its putting the theory behind what I witnessed and as far as learning for me the more info I have the more tools in my toolbox I have to use.

What I’ve started with on suggestion from a tracking expert is “Tracking from the Beginning”, which is out of print. 

“Controlled Aggression” by Jerry Bradshaw
His pst life involved a lot of academia so his teaching and explanation I find to be more organized than most.

For podcasts:
Ivan Balabanov-the books of his guests are on my to read list but they are much more science behind rather than applied training

Controlled Aggression Podcast

Patreon for Controlled Aggression

Joined Dave Kroyers Site for $10 a month to access his videos.

Other videos from the past through Leerburg:
Michael Ellis
Forrest Micke
Pack Structure
Tracking
The older Ivan videos “the game” 

Any suggestions to add to this?

In particular for other tracking and scentwork aside from footstep tracking?
TIA


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## Zeppy (Aug 1, 2021)

No specific resources, and this coming from a person who has a “pet” GSD who also provides mobility support to me as needed:

For me - patience. SO much patience. And delayed gratification- not letting in just to make it easier in the moment. I guess this ties in with persistence and consistency.

Also - a _willingness_ to embody the above traits.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

emlesnick said:


> “Controlled Aggression” by Jerry Bradshaw


I just read this and wondered what Terry Bradshaw has to do with dog training. More coffee for me.
LOL


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I can make your dog do anything, my own not so much. Your in the general sense, not you personally.
I am a learner by nature. I make a point of never disagreeing with something until I have studied it in depth. Trainers are no different. I will study any training method and dissect it in depth before I discount it or approve it.
I think that the best trainers are naturally good, so things get lost in translation. The average pet owner will not be able to duplicate results because they lack that natural key. If they do have it, it is unique to them and will work differently.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

One of Cesar Milan's earliest books included interviews with trainers from many different disciplines, all of them very well known in their field. Each one had their own methods, and all were very different. It was particularly interesting to read about the challenges a trainer faces when using dogs for a movie or TV program, with camera and sound being recorded, so everything has to be done with hand signals, and the trainer has to be far enough away from the dog to be off-camera.

I was impressed that Cesar would do this. The worst thing a trainer can do is get stuck with the one method, and not be open to learning anything new.


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

Agree with Sabis. The best dog trainer I knew, who passed two years ago, could read any dog and respond/interact appropriately in a fraction of a second. Just seemed like an innate talent.


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## Kathrynil (Dec 2, 2019)

Of course, I'm NOT a dog trainer by far, but from the experience of taking Kias to a good trainer, I did notice and appreciate several qualities. 
I really appreciated both absolute honesty (not hiding what YOU did wrong), and the attitude of explaining what needs to be addressed and how you as the dog owner can do it, instead of taking the dog and "fixing" it themselves. I prefer going to training lessons rather than a trainer taking the dog for a week or so and working with it. I want to have a part in learning what is wrong and what needs to be done to make it right.


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## Kragenbär (Nov 4, 2011)

(Not sure if its okay to pose the question in your thread, but I thought it may go in-line with the experience portion. I'll delete if you want.)

What are ways for people to gain experience training others dogs besides just your own? Or ways that others have gone about gaining experience with dogs other than GSDs?

I planned on going to more club get togethers. (at least if I'm welcome lol) there is a shutzhund club within a couple hours. A PSA club about the same. And than maybe go watch agility typle events. Other ways im trying to learn have been watching a lot of YouTube and browsing this forum to be honest to get help. I hope to start getting more books as well.

For the video lessons like YouTube, I've been watching primarily Shield K9 and Michael Ellis.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Big post coming. Had a military funeral and work today and maybe taking someone to the ER.

Thanks for the input so far!


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Sabis mom said:


> I think that the best trainers are naturally good, so things get lost in translation. The average pet owner will not be able to duplicate results because they lack that natural key. If they do have it, it is unique to them and will work differently.


It's funny you should mention this, as I was just going to say nearly the same thing! I don't like to spend time reading books on dog training, so I've really done only a little in that regard. My favorite reference if I do want to read about training are the DOD field training guides.

I have been immersed in dogs and dog training from a very early age. I was maybe 6 or 7 and lived near some folks who were GSD brokers. They bought young green dogs and trained them in obedience and initial bite work, and their main customer base was LE.
I helped out and learned a lot!

I got my own GSD/Lab mix from a shelter when I was 10, which I trained and learned even more. And over the years I've worked with several trainers and kennels. But, the trainer who had the biggest influence, and from whom I learned the most about training in general, didn't work with dogs. His passion was horses!

And he was a true whisperer! He just had a presence that all animals responded to! This guy used to stop at his little pond in front of his riding stable and pet the bullfrogs! 

And I think for me, the focus on body language and spacial pressure and release involved in horse training was truly a game changer! I'll never be as good as he was with any animal, but watching him was a magical experience that taught me a lot!

What is the anatomy of a good trainer? I think all good trainers are passionate, and just tend to connect with animals on a deep level. It is art! It pays to be flexible and respond to the animal in front of you honestly, and naturally, and immediately.

It's less about method than it is about connection, IMHO. But I think having spent time training a wide variety of dogs, using different methods is very helpful as well!



Kragenbär said:


> What are ways for people to gain experience training others dogs besides just your own? Or ways that others have gone about gaining experience with dogs other than GSDs?


Many shelters have volunteer opportunities, and virtually any dog event can be a great place to learn. It's controversial, but even dog parks are great places to learn about dog behavior, though training not so much.


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## Kragenbär (Nov 4, 2011)

Thank you! That makes me feel better about it. I was actually thinking about going to a few rescues once I get more knowledgeable and confident. I'd do it for free before and after the adoption. Just to gain some experience. I also just signed up for a PSA get together with a speaker down in KS.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

To gain experience training dogs that are not your own: volunteer at the shelter. I took my daughter to volunteer at our animal shelter eons ago…. You handle a LOt of rowdy dogs that way. Cleaning dirty kennels keeps everybody humble

if you’re serious about dog training, ask to shadow a local successful trainer, or ask if they will apprentice you.

Title your own dogs in anything you can title them in. I’ve titled my dogs in obedience, rally, tracking, dock diving, and tricks for fun. You’d be amazed what you learn from teaching this stuff to yourself and your dog and getting yourselves to the point you can go perform it reliably at a competition.

not hands on for dogs that are not your but go to seminars. You get to watch other people work dogs at whatever the seminar is about and listen to someone who knows more than you help them.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

I was fortunate to have a variety of dogs my life growing up. I’ve also had a variety of dogs in my life. I had the benefit of making some mistakes with some small dogs that weren’t capable of doing major damage to me. I’ve studied some animal psychology. I’ve always had a good general ability to read dogs. I’d say I was always pretty good at reading body language and signals. Over the last few years I’ve worked to refine my techniques and style. There’s a lot of people I’ve looked at and taken stuff from.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I have trained many dogs, but I don't consider myself a dog trainer. The way I see it, every moment we spend with our dog from the moment we meet our dog is training. Some is good training, some is bad training. We train them to do what we want, what they should do, what they should not do. We train them to listen to us, and sometimes we train them to not listen to us (like when we repeat commands and do not follow through). To me this is a bond of communication that we have with our dogs. 

A dog trainer, to me is someone who trains people to train their dogs, or who takes dogs that are not their own and instills in them behaviors to match commands that are agreed upon with the owner who will then use the commands to get the desired behavior from the dog. 

What I have learned this year is that I suck at being a dog trainer. I can get my dogs to do what I want them to do. I can probably get your dog to do what I want, if I am in charge of it. What I suck at is matching a training style to a dog/owner team, and explaining what the owner needs to get their dog to do what they want it to. Without this ability, you are no trainer at all, and just an owner/handler.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

Love the idea!
I guess greatness is just the way passion ages when you nourish it. I also think there are a many many shades of "great", and many secret ingredients in such a recipe. So there could be a million definitions... 
After a few years working and sharing my local trainer, I consider him a friend. 
A few qualities he embodies that I really appreciate would be : unfailing commitment to serve dogs and people, truthfulness to himself and others, unselfishness.
He doesn't really care about public image or "glory", doesn't try to make things look smooth and perfect when they are not, he's just a solid, reliable coach with a great set of skills and tools, who'll give the best of himself to make things work for you and your dogs, every single time.
Over the years, I've seen him achieve amazing rehab jobs as a shelter volunteer and foster home, in complete anonymity and not getting paid a dime for it. Many of these dogs would be dead today if not for his dedication.
So my personal definition of "great" in this field would probably be a mix of hard-core passion, fundamental human qualities, and learned skills.

People who inspire me in the dog-sphere are very diverse... I just love to see greatness and human-dog alchemy in many shapes 
Could be sports, could be super-specific training, or a great adoption story, or just a local farmer and his old shepherd dog quietly walking by his side as he has done every morning for the past 10 years.
All in all, all of this is pure beauty.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

selzer said:


> What I have learned this year is that I suck at being a dog trainer. I can get my dogs to do what I want them to do. I can probably get your dog to do what I want, if I am in charge of it. What I suck at is matching a training style to a dog/owner team, and explaining what the owner needs to get their dog to do what they want it to. Without this ability, you are no trainer at all, and just an owner/handler.


Yes, it's part of what I admire so much in some professional trainers.
What made you think you sucked at this? Have you tried and failed?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> I think that the best trainers are naturally good, so things get lost in translation. The average pet owner will not be able to duplicate results because they lack that natural key. If they do have it, it is unique to them and will work differently.


I think there is something to this, but I don't think it stops with dogs. I believe some people are just better at non-verbal communication than others and they have the ability to be good with dogs if they choose.



Kathrynil said:


> I prefer going to training lessons rather than a trainer taking the dog for a week or so and working with it. I want to have a part in learning what is wrong and what needs to be done to make it right.


I do both and I would much rather an owner train their dog. Where board and train comes in for me is when a dog is crazy reactive, biting people, absolutely no manners kind of thing. Until a person can have some success asking a dog for behaviors, it is pretty tough for me to leave the leash in their hands. 



Kragenbär said:


> What are ways for people to gain experience training others dogs besides just your own? Or ways that others have gone about gaining experience with dogs other than GSDs?


I started by training dogs for friends and family for free and volunteering at 3 local shelters. You could also see if there are any large working dog contractors nearby that you could work for. One of my favorite trainers started off cleaning kennels when he was a kid. 



selzer said:


> The way I see it, every moment we spend with our dog from the moment we meet our dog is training.


And that is a truth that most owners don't seem to understand. Your dog doesn't stop learning when the 10 minute session is over. Everything shapes that dog. Every moment. Make them count.



selzer said:


> What I suck at is matching a training style to a dog/owner team, and explaining what the owner needs to get their dog to do what they want it to. Without this ability, you are no trainer at all, and just an owner/handler.


So this is my biggest challenge because I am very direct and it is hard for some people to take when you tell them they suck. Having patience with people when they don't do their homework is trying. It is easy to help them in the moment, but helping them understand that it has to happen ALL THE TIME is harder. Owners are harder to train than dogs.

Being a trainer means that I can spend the time where they may not have it, or may not be willing to give it up to the dog. They want push button and that's hard to do when they don't do the work.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I think when ppl decide to hire a dog trainer they already realize they suck, no need to push it into their face again.
I’ve seen a lot of good trainers that are very dog oriented. They have skills, knowledge, they assess the dog right, know what to do and have confidence in their knowledge. What they lack is soft people skills.

They don’t take time to connect with the owner, they lack compassion, they also like to hear themselves talk and do not listen or even care to hear what the owners have to say or what experience the owners have. And guess what, all their knowledge is irrelevant and powerless to make a change for the dog unless they get the owners understanding and support. 

Its not just a dog trainer problem. Ever encountered a skilled professional with lots of technical knowledge with subpar ppl skills that no one wants to work with and tries to avoid as a plague?

‘Good trainers work on the owners skills and build up the owners confidence, they actively listen, support, use lots of positive reinforcement, Just watch any video of ME and hear how he is cheering up the owner, not the dog, when something is successfully implemented. That’s the road to success.


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## Orphan Heidi (Sep 21, 2018)

Old saying in my horse world- and it applies to dog world....

Every interaction you have with your animal, you're either TRAINING or UNTRAINING.

meaning undoing what you had installed previously by not following through or correcting.

I think good animal trainers have learned so much even if by osmosis. Hard to package all that into words.

I'll 3rd the 'volunteer at animal shelters'. Despite the many different breeds, there's a lot of common type
educating that one does with the animals. You can volunteer to do leash training, manners, patience training, socialization etc.

Heck, in my farm life, I've raised and trained chickens, quail, squirrels, raccoons, horses and more I've forgotten. There's so much common techniques in teaching/training various animals.

This is a great thread and I look forward to all the answers. Thanks David for starting this.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

So.... education. In my world, education is knowledge gathered through study. Experience is knowledge gained through practice. Just like in chemistry class, we had study time and lab time. We learned the why and then we got the opportunity to burn our eyebrows off. 

I think understanding the why matters if you want to have an original idea. Not like an original idea that no one has had before you, but an original idea to you. Something that you came up with and you want to try it out. The best chance you have at making good soup is understanding why each ingredient and technique effects the soup. If you are solely basing your decisions on a singular criteria, like taste, you may put 4 things together that should taste good but you added them at the wrong time and now it sucks.

I'm a nerd. I learn about things. When I decided I really wanted to learn about training dogs, I started by learning about why dog training works. I had read books from the Monks and KMODT and such, but they didn't give me the why that I wanted. At the suggestion of a trainer, I got the first Handbook of Applied Dog Training and Behavior. It was $150 and a rather thick book, full of actual scientific experiments and how they effect dog training in particular. The author, Steven Lindsay, was a military handler and trainer. There are three volumes and I consider them to be the very best educational material in the field of dog training. A shortcut, and a very good read, is Excel-erated Learning by Pamela Reid.

People will often ask me what books to read. I tell them to read them all. There is something to be learned from every single one. Everything works! Properly applied, the KMODT works, most of the time. It is crude by today's standards but millions of dogs were/are trained that way with acceptable results. R+ only training works, most of the time. It takes a lot of time and a better trainer than most owners will ever be, but a lot of dogs can be successfully trained to do some stuff with no corrections.

Reading a book gives you an insight into a training methodology that has had some success. Understanding the science behind dog training allows you to take what you read and pull it apart into why something worked for this trainer. If you go watch Bart Bellon at a seminar and you don't have this knowledge, you will get some techniques to try. If you understand why he is doing what he is doing, you can use his principles of training as well as implement the techniques you learned.

Boarding a dog with me is not cheap. Every single potential client that wants basic OB and manners on their dog gets the same speech from me. Go get Excel-erated Learning, read it three times, get the Michael Ellis puppy, food, tug and recall videos. Watch them 3 times each and then go get a puppy. Then we will do private sessions once a week until you feel you don't need them as often. If they already have a dog, the advice is the same, other then to do their homework before the puppy next time 

I think these 5 educational materials will set anyone up to be a decent trainer. They explain the why in dog training. If you want to continue down the path of more specialized training such as a sport or work venue, then I recommend more specialized reading after these materials.

Yes, there are a lot of good trainers out there, and a lot of great online programs now. These are the resources I know well so they are what I recommend. I see a lot of reference to Denise Fenzy, Dave Kroyer , Ivan Balabanov, insert many trainers that are better than me by a long shot. I suggest you check them all out. I have seen and read things by all these trainers and I think they are great! They are all successful and that is for a reason. They are great with dogs and people and they have had much success in their fields of expertise.

The MOST important thing is that you learn. Get an education! It is a small investment considering you are probably going to have dogs for the rest of your life. Having a good understanding of how animals learn just unlocks your potential to make any technique work better, and maybe just come up with some of your own.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

GSD07 said:


> I think when ppl decide to hire a dog trainer they already realize they suck, no need to push it into their face again.
> I’ve seen a lot of good trainers that are very dog oriented. They have skills, knowledge, they assess the dog right, know what to do and have confidence in their knowledge. What they lack is soft people skills.
> 
> They don’t take time to connect with the owner, they lack compassion, they also like to hear themselves talk and do not listen or even care to hear what the owners have to say or what experience the owners have. And guess what, all their knowledge is irrelevant and powerless to make a change for the dog unless they get the owners understanding and support.
> ...


This is a constant challenge for me. I can do it now. Ironically, being an NCO and instructor in the Army gave me a lot of soft skills that I lacked. I have always had the natural inclination that people should see things and do things that are obvious to me. I have made active listening a habit that comes easy now. It all started by making myself count to 5 after someone finished talking before I responded. This changed the way I communicate with people. In those 5 seconds, I think about what they said instead of just making my point. 

I was that skilled professional with no people skills that people avoided unless they needed me. 

Thank you for saying this so well


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## SMcN (Feb 12, 2021)

David Winners said:


> So this is my biggest challenge because I am very direct and it is hard for some people to take when you tell them they suck. Having patience with people when they don't do their homework is trying. It is easy to help them in the moment, but helping them understand that it has to happen ALL THE TIME is harder. Owners are harder to train than dogs.


Many people here have pointed out the biggest problem with training dogs is the owner, when they are incapable or unable to grasp the nuances. And there are the people who want a couple of sessions, then magically have an obedient dog where they don't have to do anything else....ever. I have a dear friend and neighbor who has had a "new" dog for 5 years, bought as a puppy, and I still hold on to the door frame (firmly) every time I walk in the house to prevent not getting knocked back down the entry stairs.
In riding horses I heard many times "you are either training them to do something, or untraining what you have taught them". 
But, perhaps, David, and I do NOT mean this as a criticism, you could maybe find a gentler phrase than "you suck". Just a suggestion. 
In my profession, I have a hard time answering a question that is conceivably the stupidest question ever without having the "you idiot" come across in my voice.


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## SMcN (Feb 12, 2021)

GSD07 said:


> They don’t take time to connect with the owner, they lack compassion, they also like to hear themselves talk and do not listen or even care to hear what the owners have to say or what experience the owners have. And guess what, all their knowledge is irrelevant and powerless to make a change for the dog unless they get the owners understanding and support.
> 
> Its not just a dog trainer problem. Ever encountered a skilled professional with lots of technical knowledge with subpar ppl skills that no one wants to work with and tries to avoid as a plague?
> 
> ‘Good trainers work on the owners skills and build up the owners confidence, they actively listen, support, use lots of positive reinforcement, Just watch any video of ME and hear how he is cheering up the owner, not the dog, when something is successfully implemented. That’s the road to success.


I think you hit the nail on the head here, GSD07.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

SMcN said:


> Many people here have pointed out the biggest problem with training dogs is the owner, when they are incapable or unable to grasp the nuances. And there are the people who want a couple of sessions, then magically have an obedient dog where they don't have to do anything else....ever. I have a dear friend and neighbor who has had a "new" dog for 5 years, bought as a puppy, and I still hold on to the door frame (firmly) every time I walk in the house to prevent not getting knocked back down the entry stairs.
> In riding horses I heard many times "you are either training them to do something, or untraining what you have taught them".
> But, perhaps, David, and I do NOT mean this as a criticism, you could maybe find a gentler phrase than "you suck". Just a suggestion.
> In my profession, I have a hard time answering a question that is conceivably the stupidest question ever without having the "you idiot" come across in my voice.


Eh... does it help if I smile after I say you suck? 

I don't use that term, unless it is the right kind of client. I tend to take things in the direction of, "Well, there are some things we need to work on, and that's why you are here!"


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

@David Winners, what are the most rewarding aspects of your practice?
And on the contrary, does it sometimes get boring or frustrating? Let's say a job that feels repetitive and you're not really excited about it because you get that "been there done that" feeling or the client's plan is pretty restrictive (or else).
And are there jobs you simply don't want to take, and why?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Chloé&Buck said:


> @David Winners, what are the most rewarding aspects of your practice?
> And on the contrary, does it sometimes get boring or frustrating? Let's say a job that feels repetitive and you're not really excited about it because you get that "been there done that" feeling or the client's plan is pretty restrictive (or else).
> And are there jobs you simply don't want to take, and why?


I don't take most clients because of this. Unless there is a family or friendship connection, I don't do normal pet dog training because it's boring and repetitive to me. The clients I take have real problem dogs, typically with bite history and DA/HA issues. I also don't enjoy working with nerve bag cases, so I don't take them.

I also vet owners carefully. If I think they will be lazy or they don't want to work in my style of training, I don't work with them.

I like pushy, knucklehead dogs that are often "too much" dog for their owners because of lack of education and/or experience. I don't need to train dogs to pay my electric bill, so I can be picky. I haven't taken a board and train since I brought Valor home last July.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

tim_s_adams said:


> And I think for me, the focus on body language and spacial pressure and release involved in horse training was truly a game changer!


I worked with horses for many years, and that helped a lot when I got my first dog. When I read Monty Robert's book (The Horse Whisperer) I was surprised to find I already knew about using my body language to apply pressure/release pressure on horses when lunging them! It was something I'd just picked up unconsciously by working with them. Maybe I'm better at reading animal body language than your average joe?

Also, something else I learned from my riding instructor (and has been repeated several times above): Every minute you are working with a horse (or dog) you are either training it or untraining it!

That's why the German shepherd I had while my husband was alive picked up a number of bad habits... 😁 I was NOT the only one working with her!


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

David Winners said:


> A shortcut, and a very good read, is Excel-erated Learning by Pamela Reid.


For some reason, this book is not available in the Kindle edition. Due to lack of space in my house, I am trying to cut down on the number of physical books I buy, so this was a big disappointment to me. However, Amazon does provide the first chapter or two, so you can read it for free, and get a feel for what the book is about, and it sound very promising.

Modern animal training is based on Skinner's work, which was then developed and enlarged on by two of Skinner's grad students, the Brelands. They introduced clicker training, and were light-years ahead of Skinner in understanding and using operant conditioning. They also discovered that there were times when operant conditioning just did not work. They wrote a paper on it, called "The Misbehavior of Organisms", which makes very interesting reading. Classics in the History of Psychology -- Breland & Breland (1961). They found that there were times when the instinctive drives present in animals overcame their desire to work for a reward.

Temple Grandin was another student of animal behaviour who realized Skinner's work was not the be-all and end-all of training and understanding animals:



> "He [Skinner] taught that all you needed to study was behaviour...you weren't supposed to speculate about what was inside a person's or an animal's head...you couldn't talk about it. You could measure only behaviour, therefore you could study only behaviour."
> 
> The now-famous Grandin was just a college student back in the 1980's when B.F. Skiner was God and the science of behaviourism was Gospel. "Behaviourists thought these basic concepts explained everything about animals, who were basically just stimulus-response machines. It's probably hard for people to imagine the power this idea had back then. It was almost a religion."
> 
> ...


In his book, _Cesar Rules_, Cesar Milan sums up Grandin's feelings about the flaws in operant conditioning very nicely: *"The Brelands' paper back in 1961 was the beginning of putting it all together to understand that we have to honour and respect the whole being of a dog or any animal before we can clearly communicate with it."*

And offering a dog a treat when it's in what Cesar refers to as the 'red zone' definitely isn't going to work! But I've found most trainers who rely solely on positive reinforcement won't work with this type of dog.

When I got my first GSD, The Kohler Method of Dog Training (that's what KMODT stands for in David's post) was one of the few books out there. I agree with David, yes, it's crude, but a lot of what's in it WORKS. Being someone who loved reading, I went on and read other books by Kohler, and was surprised to find he'd been the chief trainer for Walt Disney studios for many years, and had trained the cats for The Incredible Journey and That Darn Cat. Anyone who has ever tried to work with cats will know heavy-handed, abusive training is never going to work. This man was obviously a much gentler, more intelligent trainer than his critics claim!


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

David Winners said:


> I don't take most clients because of this. Unless there is a family or friendship connection, I don't do normal pet dog training because it's boring and repetitive to me. The clients I take have real problem dogs, typically with bite history and DA/HA issues. I also don't enjoy working with nerve bag cases, so I don't take them.
> 
> I also vet owners carefully. If I think they will be lazy or they don't want to work in my style of training, I don't work with them.
> 
> I like pushy, knucklehead dogs that are often "too much" dog for their owners because of lack of education and/or experience. I don't need to train dogs to pay my electric bill, so I can be picky. I haven't taken a board and train since I brought Valor home last July.


Makes sense, thank you 
That aspect, repetition, often occurs to me as a "con" of dog training as a job. (and as a "con" of any educational/pedagogical occupation in general)


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Chloé&Buck said:


> Makes sense, thank you
> That aspect, repetition, often occurs to me as a "con" of dog training as a job. (and as a "con" of any educational/pedagogical occupation in general)


For me, it depends on what it is. I can do detection training all day long. It's fun for me.

Part of my not doing pet OB training is my inner disdain for people that won't do the simplest things to make their life better. Anyone that wants me to teach their dog to recall, sit, lay down and walk on a loose leash and then give the dog back is just not the kind of person I want to work with. Now that may be the only commands the dog learns in a board and train, but I teach the dog about life, manners and leadership. I'm into that.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

David Winners said:


> Part of my not doing pet OB training is my inner disdain for people


There’s certain mentality that I don’t like working with. I just don’t understand it.


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## Orphan Heidi (Sep 21, 2018)

David said 
" I teach the dog about life, manners and leadership. I'm into that."
Boy that's a mouthful Isn't that what makes a 'good companion' versus an unruly, obnoxious pet of any kind?
My only experience w/ GSDs is rescue and rehab from public shelters so it's a grab bag of problems that have to be undone and replaced. And you never know what you got til you open the package.
But it's so very satisfying.

I'm off to look up Pamela Reid's writings. Thanks.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

David Winners said:


> For me, it depends on what it is. I can do detection training all day long. It's fun for me.
> 
> Part of my not doing pet OB training is my inner disdain for people that won't do the simplest things to make their life better. Anyone that wants me to teach their dog to recall, sit, lay down and walk on a loose leash and then give the dog back is just not the kind of person I want to work with. Now that may be the only commands the dog learns in a board and train, but I teach the dog about life, manners and leadership. I'm into that.


Exactly! It's not about repetition per se I guess, more about keeping the job meaningful and not loosing your time pissing into the wind.
I'm not a dog trainer but I do see a lot of people "that won't do the simplest things to make their life better", and I wonder how that would impact your job and motivation to do it over time.
I guess you don't have too many of that type though, as people who hire a trainer are probably willing to learn for the majority?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Almost anyone can be an adequate trainer with an easy dog. They practically train themselves. German Shepherds are challenging to less experienced owners because there is so much variation within the breed, and they can be on the easy side or very difficult. Nothing teaches us how to train faster than having a dog that is different and more challenging than what you have had before. Not everyone who gets a private trainer is a bad handler. Sometimes they just need more variety or ideas in their training toolbox. We get bored. Dogs get bored too. 

Basic park obedience classes don’t do much more beyind that. I teach mine obedience and manners. Down is obedience. Place is a down with much more (where to go, what to lie down on, stop pestering people etc).


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

LuvShepherds said:


> Nothing teaches us how to train faster than having a dog that is different and more challenging than what you have had before.


SO true! My first shepherd was a very easy dog. After 5 weeks of obedience classes, she scored 175/200 points in a fun match.

My next one had probably been turned out on the streets to fend for herself because she was a stubborn, hard-headed dog who didn't much care for kids. She turned my household upside down! She was extremely smart, and if she didn't want to do something, she'd try her best to find a way of avoiding it! I learned an awful lot while training this dog, and some of it had to be learned the hard way, as I was quite new to training dogs!


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

I am having the time of my life with a great trainer. He is ex-military where he was a K9 handler and then a cop with a K9. He ultimately became the dog master for his department. He asks for a high degree of precision. A hovering sit is not good enough. A down where the chest isn't on the floor doesn't count. 

I did puppy obedience with him and have moved on to intermediate now. I wish all pet dog owners could get the same degree of excellence that I have gotten. This guy has a ton of tools in his metaphorical tool box. 
Sheilah


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

sitstay said:


> I am having the time of my life with a great trainer. He is ex-military where he was a K9 handler and then a cop with a K9. He ultimately became the dog master for his department. He asks for a high degree of precision. A hovering sit is not good enough. A down where the chest isn't on the floor doesn't count.
> 
> I did puppy obedience with him and have moved on to intermediate now. I wish all pet dog owners could get the same degree of excellence that I have gotten. This guy has a ton of tools in his metaphorical tool box.
> Sheilah


As a kennel master and/or training NCO, you get your hands on a lot of dogs with problems. It's a fantastic learning experience. A good working dog trainer (not handler!) is a great resource.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Fun thread and a good way look at my own journey as trainer. Mine started when I was 8 years old and playing with our neighbor's miniature poodle. Completely void of parental guidance so I learned the hard way not to get bitten by her, setting her up against the paper boy , the mail man etc. Tons of fun with her in a very lonely childhood. I loved her a lot and played with her every day, anywhere where I wanted to take her was OK by her owners. But they rehomed her without them or my parents telling me (biggest childhood trauma). Never got to have a dog until I was on my own in my 20's. He was a strong willed male Bouvier cross in NL. I learned through trial and error and started him in a protection/obedience club. Moved to the US with him and raised my family. Got my instructor's license in NL. Worked with the adverse techniques (choke chains). Educated myself in clickering in the early 2000's, practiced it on all my foster dogs and my own Whippets. Then started teaching this method once I was fluent in clickering. I thought it was the gospel since it worked in my classes and all of my dogs until..I got my first WL GSD in the form of Wolfy Dog. That opened up my dog training mind and now use a combination of both worlds. But I am bummed about the laziness of pet dog owners who need and ask for help without doing anything I advice them to do, while they see with their own eyes how it changes their dog, working with me. Even worse is the ones with aggressive dogs; they ask for help, yet find excuses for them. Ughh... I have almost given up and don't advertise anymore. I am 65 years old and done with all of that, just enjoying my own buddies. This was the shortened version of working with dogs for about 40 years.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

David Winners said:


> Eh... does it help if I smile after I say you suck?
> 
> I don't use that term, unless it is the right kind of client. I tend to take things in the direction of, "Well, there are some things we need to work on, and that's why you are here!"


I have no filter. "That's stupid, don't do it again" is more my style.

I always tell people I am NOT a trainer, I'm an idiot with a dog. 

I don't trust trainers who never mention the dogs they failed with, gave up on or passed over. Everyone has one, no one is perfect. 
And I don't like trainers who push systems. No system or method works for all dogs. If they can't adjust they aren't trainers. 
When I was training horses I always liked to watch them for a while first, see who they were and where we were at. That told me what I needed to know and how to approach them. Dogs are no different. People lie.


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## CactusWren (Nov 4, 2018)

David, this is a great thread. I now have some reading material to catch up on.

I am also a professional musician, although not a teacher, and you might be amused that a couple guitar teachers I know explicitly prefer to work with children. Why? Because adults already know it all, already. I have certainly observed people asking me for advice and then immediately ignoring it, as if it had already floated out of their other ear.

I think this is a good parallel with the difficulty in teaching dog owners. As Caesar user to say on his show, "I don't teach dogs, I teach humans." (or something like that). Point is, it's usually the owner and the environment that is causing or at least not solving the problematic behavior, not the dog's intrinsic qualities.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The good news is that the canine end is pretty easy. So a good trainer has a few choices in how to match the method they choose to the owner. Yes the difficulty is on the human end of the equation. And it doesn't help that people today are all victims and hyper-sensitive to criticism. Because yes, dogs are dogs. Those of us who have a lot of experience with dogs have no trouble getting dogs to do what we want. And our dogs are rarely inappropriately aggressive in situations, because they take their cues from us, because of that experience. The problem is, by and far, not in the dogs, but in the people. And trainers who _know_ how to fix a problem in a dog, are often terrible trainers because they have little ability to fix the right side of the leash. The better trainers out there are perhaps not better, but understand where the problem lies, but their lack in people-skills make it impossible for them to work with the people who need to fix their dog. 

People often go into dogs because they do not like people, but if you want to breed or train or be a vet, you HAVE to have good people skills. Breeders have to talk to people in order to make good placements, to help them with issues, to turn people down in such a way that they do not become angry and retaliate. A vet has to respect and speak well to people, because the majority of their information about the dog's problems come from the person, and their treatment is highly dependent on the person's carrying it through. And trainers have to read and understand the people, build people's confidence and relationship with their dog, and they cannot do that if they are naturally aversive to people. 

So the short answer is, if you dislike people but you want to work with dogs, pick a field where you use the dogs to perform a service, like sheep-herding/farming, police work, military, and even search and rescue (if you are independently wealthy). Other animal-oriented professions have more people-contact than most other professions.


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## CEMC (May 2, 2020)

I'm sure that there are some people that excel at dog training. However regardless of how good some of these folks are I think it's a mistake to send a dog away to spend weeks with a trainer if the owner does not know how to maintain and build on what the dog learned after it comes home. I believe the best use of a dog trainer is in a situation where both owner and dog are learning and progressing together.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

CEMC said:


> I'm sure that there are some people that excel at dog training. However regardless of how good some of these folks are I think it's a mistake to send a dog away to spend weeks with a trainer if the owner does not know how to maintain and build on what the dog learned after it comes home. I believe the best use of a dog trainer is in a situation where both owner and dog are learning and progressing together.


Most everyone shares this opinion until they find themselves in a situation where it is beneficial to the dog and humans alike.

I can't imagine many people aren't happy after they send a puppy to Stonnie Dennis for foundation work. 

I haven't had many upset clients after their dog returned non reactive to people and animals, not biting them or the neighbors, and understanding a vocabulary that allows them to be a comfortable part of the family. I spend time with clients after board and train and typically check in with them for several months to be sure everything is going well.


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

sitstay said:


> I am having the time of my life with a great trainer. He is ex-military where he was a K9 handler and then a cop with a K9. He ultimately became the dog master for his department. He asks for a high degree of precision. A hovering sit is not good enough. A down where the chest isn't on the floor doesn't count.
> 
> I did puppy obedience with him and have moved on to intermediate now. I wish all pet dog owners could get the same degree of excellence that I have gotten. This guy has a ton of tools in his metaphorical tool box.
> Sheilah


@sitstay would you mind sharing your trainers name? You can message me if you prefer not to name him publicly. His back round sounds the same as the trainer we had for our girl years ago. I'm curious if it's the same trainer.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Springbrz said:


> @sitstay would you mind sharing your trainers name? You can message me if you prefer not to name him publicly. His back round sounds the same as the trainer we had for our girl years ago. I'm curious if it's the same trainer.


His name is Jacob Fowler. Here is his website:
www.bluelinek9dogtraining.com
Sheilah


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## drparker151 (Apr 10, 2020)

I'm and old, retired, computer geek. Started at the very beginning of the PC in a retail store and also spent time training installers on advanced networking and trouble shooting.

You know why kids pickup new technology quickly? Adults have fear failure that keeps them from experimenting and kids just naturally have the attitude of "let's see what happens if I do this"

When training adults on something new you have to get them past thier fear of failure.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Adults also can recognise (REMOVED) and will not pay for it as they do know the value of money (kids don’t). Teaching adults requires more effort partly because of that.

PS I study piano as an adult. Took me some time to find a good teacher that can teach music, technique, theory, expression and all, and not just pushing the right buttons, eh sorry, keys lol

NO SWEARING.
THANKS,
MOD TEAM


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I apologize, I didn’t realize it was a bad swearing word. What I meant was that the adults will see if the teacher just uses a lot of good sounding words and creates a lot of busy work with no meaningful outcome just to fill the time.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

GSD07 said:


> I apologize, I didn’t realize it was a bad swearing word. What I meant was that the adults will see if the teacher just uses a lot of good sounding words and creates a lot of busy work with no meaningful outcome just to fill the time.


I agree with your statement wholeheartedly! I just removed the bad word due to forum rules. No worries at all. I have to keep the filter totally engaged on many of my posts. I was in the military long enough for 4 letter words to become commonplace in my vocabulary.


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## HollandN (Aug 12, 2020)

It would terrify me if you said you suck and smiled (btw it’s Dave Kroyer)


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

HollandN said:


> It would terrify me if you said you suck and smiled (btw it’s Dave Kroyer)


I doubt that I would terrify you. I'm actually a fairly nice guy in person, at least most of the time.

And I knew that. Don't know how Rob came out of my concussion riddled brain. It's amazing that I can form a sentence sometimes. Thanks!! I edited my post.


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## CactusWren (Nov 4, 2018)

GSD07 said:


> Adults also can recognise (REMOVED) and will not pay for it as they do know the value of money (kids don’t). Teaching adults requires more effort partly because of that.
> 
> PS I study piano as an adult. Took me some time to find a good teacher that can teach music, technique, theory, expression and all, and not just pushing the right buttons, eh sorry, keys lol
> 
> ...


Except that beginners are rarely in the position to know what they need to be taught.

Although adults certainly tend to think they do.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

When I look back at all the dogs that really stand out in my life, besides Sabi, I think of Freeway and Shadow.
Freeway was a Great Dane that I found as a tiny puppy. She was a cull that was clubbed over the head and tossed in a ditch near Oceanside CA. She was stone deaf and the act of training a deaf pup, and a deaf Dane at that, taught me huge lessons in touch and body language. I struggled and cried and lost my mind trying to teach her. Died of heart failure just shy of 7 years old as a certified Therapy dog and knowing over a hundred different signs and signals. 
Shadow has been with me since she was about 18 days old. She was so sensitive as a pup that I needed to step back and teach myself to control my breathing. We struggled together for years trying to find a way to communicate that worked for both of us. The dog that threw everything at me but the kitchen sink and forced me to learn and use methods and tools I never would have tried. FYI, to this day she hates clickers. I tried a clicker, a pen and a Snapple lid. She attacks the hand holding the annoying thing every time I click! Lol.
My life has been riddled with amazing animals. A toad that learned to jump over obstacles on command, a salamander that followed a light, a Beta that learned to rest on my hand and touch a target for treats, a rooster that learned to give hugs. A badly abused horse that was trained entirely with voice commands, a wild crow that came when I whistled and walked with me. And my multitude of incredible dogs that have all taught me far more then I ever taught them.


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## HollandN (Aug 12, 2020)

David Winners said:


> I doubt that I would terrify you. I'm actually a fairly nice guy in person, at least most of the time.
> 
> And I knew that. Don't know how Rob came out of my concussion riddled brain. It's amazing that I can form a sentence sometimes. Thanks!! I edited my post.


I am sure you are a nice person. I could handle you suck I have been told worse and a smile is fine but both together would kinda freak me out lol


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## SMcN (Feb 12, 2021)

CactusWren said:


> Except that beginners are rarely in the position to know what they need to be taught.
> 
> Although adults certainly tend to think they do.


This is so very true in many disciplines. When starting out you haven't a clue, after awhile you learn to learn. It is the keeping your mind open, absorbing as much as you can; you have to remain a sponge. It will start to make sense in the long run and you finally are able to start discerning good, bad and indifferent as it pertains to you and your situation.

Sooooo much helpful information on this thread!!!


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

CactusWren said:


> Except that beginners are rarely in the position to know what they need to be taught.
> 
> Although adults certainly tend to think they do.


 That’s a not so good teachers/trainers mantra. Good teachers are very good in setting goals for their students and being very clear what it will take to reach them. 

Just look here at the beginners on this board choking their dogs for an hour trying to follow their teachers instructions and being afraid to question it. 

When I went to school, one of my professors was giving grades for the quality of questions, not the answers. That really shook my world


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Sunsilver said:


> When I got my first GSD, The Kohler Method of Dog Training (that's what KMODT stands for in David's post) was one of the few books out there. I agree with David, yes, it's crude, but a lot of what's in it WORKS. Being someone who loved reading, I went on and read other books by Kohler, and was surprised to find he'd been the chief trainer for Walt Disney studios for many years, and had trained the cats for The Incredible Journey and That Darn Cat. Anyone who has ever tried to work with cats will know heavy-handed, abusive training is never going to work. This man was obviously a much gentler, more intelligent trainer than his critics claim!


Thanks for sharing this, I probably heard this before but had forgotten. Virtually anyone who is very old used some of KMODT methods at some point. 



CactusWren said:


> Curious question, since one only rarely hears about positive training on this site. It's mostly alpha stuff, corrections, prong-collars and NILIF.


This is interesting to me! Not because I agree with it, but I'm surprised that your take of conversations on this forum are "alpha" in any way. I never got that impression. Leadership is not about being alpha, it's about fair and consistent direction.

I can tell you with my own dog, the number of serious corrections she's received in 5 yrs is exactly 1. She was climbing out the window in pursuit of a person walking a dog next to my car, and I had to break the spell.

Otherwise, she's gotten some leash pops to remind her that "with me" does not mean she gets to lead lol! Beyond that, I'm not a fan of NILIF. Some things in life ARE free! And my dog has never worn a prong or e-collar - yet, I won't rule anything out, it keeps her on her toes!

I can't help but wonder if others get this same impression though...


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## herojig (Apr 3, 2013)

Sunsilver said:


> I was impressed that Cesar would do this. The worst thing a trainer can do is get stuck with the one method, and not be open to learning anything new.


I'd even go further...if you are _*not*_ freewheeling and trying different stuff that intuitively makes sense (by summoning your inner cave person), then you are not one with the spirit of doG. What the **** am I talking about? The symbiotic relationship between man and canine that's existed thousands of times longer than Google has been dishing up crap advice to doG-loving people. Best of luck to all whisperers ...


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

herojig said:


> I'd even go further...if you are _*not*_ freewheeling and trying different stuff that intuitively makes sense (by summoning your inner cave person), then you are not one with the spirit of doG. What the **** am I talking about? The symbiotic relationship between man and canine that's existed thousands of times longer than Google has been dishing up crap advice to doG-loving people. Best of luck to all whisperers ...


Exactly. This is the actual "x factor", the "magic", the thing that you cannot really pass on to other people no matter how hard you train them.
This innate ability is not something you can teach, but it allows you to understand what's going on nearly immediately and (more often than not) help dogs nearly immediately. Helping each human-dog team reach a better outcome on the longer term is yet another job per se, the one that actually requires effort on your part.
It brings me back to what I was trying to ask David earlier and I had trouble formulating.
I actually wonder how it may feel sometimes having to adapt to what your client "wants to do" and can actually do (VS just go with what seems best to you and what YOU would do).
The guy I was talking about trains normal people who don't have huge plans for their dogs. Some just need practical advice on basic training, other need to address existing behavioral issues.
What he does is a bit like giving them a "kit" to start progress, explore stuff with their dog. From there, some can get hooked and just take off and become "freewheelers" themselves, others will just make a few practical improvements and others may even just stay where they are...
The success of training clearly doesn't depend on trainer's skills only.


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## BleuHaus (Oct 31, 2020)

Experience is Knowing more then 1 way of doing something...I learned Dog Training by watching others and attending classes...My first GSD was bought at a pet store and I attended a class run by an ex-Military Trainer...I learned how to train with Compulsion which was the way to train in those days...Today training has evolved and there are many ways to train...all depending on what you're training to accomplish...Through the years I have trained with many very good trainers in the U.S. and also Europe...If you want to learn how to train then take your dog and attend a class...Start off with a Basic Obedience Class...You will learn a lot if you go to the right class...Check around and see Who and What is offered in your area...
I have a book shelf full of dog books...I have read most of them but the best way to learn is to attend a class or at least go and watch...


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## BleuHaus (Oct 31, 2020)

We don't learn from training dogs that are easy...We learn from training dogs that are hard to train...We learn new ways of training them...
If there are dogs that have problems and no one will help to correct them then they'll never get help and will probably end up in the unwated dog bin...


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

BleuHaus said:


> We learn from training dogs that are hard to train...We learn new ways of training them...


SO true!! My first GSD was a dream to train. My next one was hard-headed, stubborn, and extremely smart. She had a mind of her own, and could get aggressive with children and strangers. I really, really had to up my game with her!


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