# Prong collar?



## Luke Doggy Dog 63 (May 3, 2019)

Hello I have a 4 month old male well not yet I pick him up this Saturday so is a prong collar best for leash training or is it good for all training along with a squeaky toy for attention


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Luke Doggy Dog 63 said:


> Hello I have a 4 month old male well not yet I pick him up this Saturday so is a prong collar best for leash training or is it good for all training along with a squeaky toy for attention


I’d never use a prong on a 4 month old for any reason. Training, walking, or otherwise. A 4 month old should do just fine with a flat collar and leash.

What makes you want to go straight to a prong?


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## Chuck94! (Feb 8, 2018)

I have used prongs and e collars. (to proof Rollo's heel off leash) Both are tools that are effective when used fairly & properly.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I typically don't use or recommend a prong or e-collar on dogs younger than 6-7 months. I like a harness and long line on puppies for most activities. I use a slip leash for some up close training stuff but most of my training before 6-7 months is just shaping/capturing behaviors through rewards and socialization to life with us.


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## Chuck94! (Feb 8, 2018)

David Winners said:


> I typically don't use or recommend a prong or e-collar on dogs younger than 6-7 months. I like a harness and long line on puppies for most activities. I use a slip leash for some up close training stuff but most of my training before 6-7 months is just shaping/capturing behaviors through rewards and socialization to life with us.


That's essentially what I did. I believe we started the prong at 6 months & started e-collar at close to a year


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Chuck94! said:


> I have used prongs and e collars. (to proof Rollo's heel off leash) Both are tools that are effective when used fairly & properly.


Completely agree, just not for the age of the pup in question.


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## Luke Doggy Dog 63 (May 3, 2019)

I never said I was going to I was asking your opinions I have never used one but have read where a lot of people do use them what I did with my wolf hybrids which worked very well is very different from what I am finding in my studies on German Shepherd training. So my fist month is going to be bonding, sit, lay down, stay and leash walking and no prong collar is my thinking on track or is my thinking off


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## Luke Doggy Dog 63 (May 3, 2019)

He is 4 months has had socialization with small kids small dogs and his dog family now it's my turn so I think bonding is the most important place to start


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## Chuck94! (Feb 8, 2018)

Luke Doggy Dog 63 said:


> I never said I was going to I was asking your opinions I have never used one but have read where a lot of people do use them what I did with my wolf hybrids which worked very well is very different from what I am finding in my studies on German Shepherd training. So my fist month is going to be bonding, sit, lay down, stay and leash walking and no prong collar is my thinking on track or is my thinking off


You just need to develop a solid training foundation first, before you use any tools like a prong or e-collar. Develop the base first.


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## elf5 (Mar 31, 2019)

My dog started prong collar training at 4 months from a professional trainer. He is 5.5 months now and I get compliments on his behavior everywhere I go, from Market Basket and Home Depot to picking my daughter up from middle school. I take him everywhere with me. He is trained very well and listens with hardly little to no corrections at all. Everyone's view of training is different, I'm not a professional trainer, I take what they teach me and Koda and practice every day.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

If you want to get one and learn how to use it for if you need it, then have someone show you. Don’t use it unless you absolutely can’t control or train your dog any other way and not until the puppy is older. Once you start using a prong it’s very difficult to stop.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

elf5 said:


> My dog started prong collar training at 4 months from a professional trainer. He is 5.5 months now and I get compliments on his behavior everywhere I go, from Market Basket and Home Depot to picking my daughter up from middle school. I take him everywhere with me. He is trained very well and listens with hardly little to no corrections at all. Everyone's view of training is different, I'm not a professional trainer, I take what they teach me and Koda and practice every day.


Every dog is different. A professional trainer probably has infinitely more experience than the OP. Lots of reasons to wait a bit until the dog matures.

Can it be done? Certainly, but it can also go south. I just had a board and train that had a prong on from 4-7 months on walks with an inexperienced owner. I couldn't use a prong on the dog at all for leash pressure because it learned to ignore it until he wss overwhelmed. There was some problems with the dog not wanting to walk on a leash because of that.

Yes, this can happen with an adult too, but the chances of screwing up a puppy are greater.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

David Winners said:


> elf5 said:
> 
> 
> > My dog started prong collar training at 4 months from a professional trainer. He is 5.5 months now and I get compliments on his behavior everywhere I go, from Market Basket and Home Depot to picking my daughter up from middle school. I take him everywhere with me. He is trained very well and listens with hardly little to no corrections at all. Everyone's view of training is different, I'm not a professional trainer, I take what they teach me and Koda and practice every day.
> ...


We semi screwed ourselves with Crios. We only used the prong for walks so we could actually walk him. Now we have to put the prong on for all walks. We don’t connect it to a leash, just his flat collar, but if we forgo the prong, pulls like crazy again. This was my mistake though, we trained him that the prong meant walk, no prong he is pulling something. A wagon, a backpack, the urban sled when my sons around. So we basically conditioned him that prong means easy walk, no prong equals work. Any tips on how to get the same results without the prong. It’s literally attached to nothing, we attached to the flat collar. He’s also the only dog I used a prong on. Darn husky’s and their drive to pull! Lol


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## Buckelke (Sep 4, 2019)

put it on yourself, with the leash, and walk around for an hour or so with it on. 

sorry, these things drive me nuts. They are cruel. Cookies and kind words go a lot further.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Jchrest said:


> David Winners said:
> 
> 
> > elf5 said:
> ...


Use a harness for pulling.

Use a DD collar or slip leash for walks. Start in your house and work your way outside. Be sure you size it right so it sits up high on his neck. Reward like crazy when he's in position. I would use a clicker for this.

Graduate to a thin flat collar. Then a regular flat collar.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

That’s the problem, we tried every collar and harness on the market. The only one that worked was the prong. I have a hoard of all the harnesses, collars, and leashes (including slip lead and DD leashes). But I’m sure I can up his training, it never hurts!


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

I use prong collars on my 30 pound hound dog and my 70 pound shepherd. I have used them, since my dogs were pretty young pups. If used correctly, they do not hurt the dog. My dogs self corrected. If they don't pull, it doesn't get tight, so they don't pull. I am old and have joint issues. I can't have them yanking on me. I can walk the hound using one finger to hold the leash. I don't, but I could.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Luke Doggy Dog 63 said:


> Hello I have a 4 month old male well not yet I pick him up this Saturday so is a prong collar best for leash training or is it good for all training along with a squeaky toy for attention



I'm personally not a fan of correction tools on puppies. For teaching a puppy loose leash walking I first teach them leash pressure. This will help later when I do go to training tools, because they then understand how to "control" the tool. So for teaching puppies loose leash walking, when they start to pull on the leash I simply stop and wait them out. Once THEY release the pressure, I mark it (clicker, say YES) and reward. Either a quick pet or a treat. I repeat this process over and over. Once they start to get that, I walk and change directions often. Getting them to pay attention to me. So if they are walking in a nice heel position, the second they start to go ahead, I change directions 90 degrees from the side the dog is on. Rinse and repeat. Usually takes me a handful of session to get a puppy to walk decently on a leash. As they grow up and get more independence I use training collars to enforce and proof what the dog already knows.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am not a fan of prong collars or e-collars. But if it is a question of fighting with the dog, use the correction tool, so that doesn't become necessary. Before putting a correction collar on a 4 month old puppy, you should know what his temperament is like. 

As for a perfectly trained 5.5 month old puppy, well, I like to relax with my pups and enjoy the journey. We do not practice obedience daily, or even weekly. Not really. I mean, I tell them to go in, or to come when we are out together. But that is just communication. Which is exactly what training is. I am looking for an animal that I can totally predict and count on, without any collar on. Because my dogs do not wear collars or harnesses 98% of the time or better. Within my fencing or outside of my fencing I need for them to listen without collars. And they do. I let puppies be puppies and just build a relationship. It's kind of strange but when I finally put leash and collar on the pup to go to the vet, they do really well.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Buckelke said:


> put it on yourself, with the leash, and walk around for an hour or so with it on.
> 
> sorry, these things drive me nuts. They are cruel. Cookies and kind words go a lot further.


They are not cruel. They are a tool and have their place. No one method works on all dogs.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Buckelke said:


> put it on yourself, with the leash, and walk around for an hour or so with it on.
> 
> sorry, these things drive me nuts. They are cruel. Cookies and kind words go a lot further.


I’ve tried everything I put on my dogs. Including a prong (filled my neck with a a couple layers of scarfs, because you know, dogs don’t just have the prong on their bare skin. It pinched, but not in a painful way. Kinda feels like when I try to stuff myself into shorts that fit last year that I can barely button or zip this year ?

I’ve also tested the e-collars. From the first level to the highest level. First level felt like nothing more than sticking your tongue on a 9 volt battery (please tell me I’m not the only one that did this as a kid). The highest level (which didn’t phase my Husky/GSD on bit, no reaction at all) made me throw the thing so hard it hit a wall and broke. 

I couldn’t try a harness though. Don’t have the right body shape for that. Maybe if I ordered one for a Great Dane? 

The most annoying out of all the things I tried was a basic flat collar. I felt like I was wearing a loose choker. How people wear the tighter chokers, I’ll never know. Then again, the only jewelry I wear is my ring. And that even annoys me. Gets stuck in my girls hair when brushing it, scraps their necks sometimes, I’ve given myself a pretty good gash on my cheekbone in the middle of the night. So now I only wear it if I’m leaving the house.

What I personally find cruel is owners who cannot control their dogs, and they pull the leash out of the owners hand, and either run into traffic and get hit by a car, or go after a small dog or cat and snap their necks before the owner can catch up to them. But that’s just me ?‍♀


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

All training tools have their place (I agree with David that their are better ways to work with a puppy). I do most of my training on a flat collar and eventually they move up to a pinch (mostly in protection since I don't have to walk my dogs on leash often) and then I may introduce the e-collar for fine tuning or for walks around my fields (I live on a road with a 45 mph speed limit) depending on the dog. 



Pinch collars can be a blessing to older people, people with arthritis or stability issues who still want to be able to enjoy taking their dogs for walks.


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

David Winners said:


> Use a DD collar or slip leash for walks. Start in your house and work your way outside. Be sure you size it right so it sits up high on his neck. Reward like crazy when he's in position. I would use a clicker for this.


A DD changed my life. I used a prong with some success. But my dog became reactive on leash due to being attacked by dogs twice. A prong seemed to amp him up around other dogs. The DD allows me to walk with confidence and know I can control him around other dogs. It also works as well as the prong for leash pressure. 

Sizing is important. They say everyone goes larger than necessary. I actually went smaller and couldn’t get the dang thing around his neck. I now have the right size.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Luke Doggy Dog 63 said:


> I never said I was going to I was asking your opinions I have never used one but have read where a lot of people do use them what I did with my wolf hybrids which worked very well is very different from what I am finding in my studies on German Shepherd training. So my fist month is going to be bonding, sit, lay down, stay and leash walking and no prong collar is my thinking on track or is my thinking off


What matters most is not losing sight of what you are trying to train. It can be easy to become dependent on a collar to mostly restrain them, and confuse that with heeling. Whatever you use, focus on the behavior. Every single piece of equipment there is could have a possible down side if you don't focus on your dog and how he's actually responding to something.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Buckelke said:


> put it on yourself, with the leash, and walk around for an hour or so with it on.
> 
> sorry, these things drive me nuts. They are cruel. Cookies and kind words go a lot further.


Do try it, only put on some fur before you do so. :grin2:

We are dealing with 4-legged war machines, tough dogs, not chihuahuas.

To the OP: I wouldn’t put a prong on a young puppy. Prongs are great, but not for baby dogs.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Based on reactions from my dog the cruelest "training" device ever invented was the halti, same dog happily accepted a prong collar. Does this mean the halti is cruel? Nope, just not the right tool for this particular dog. Every dog is different and there is no one size fits all tool or training regimen that'll work for every situation. Having options is good.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

lhczth said:


> All training tools have their place (I agree with David that their are better ways to work with a puppy). I do most of my training on a flat collar and eventually they move up to a pinch (mostly in protection since I don't have to walk my dogs on leash often) and then I may introduce the e-collar for fine tuning or for walks around my fields (I live on a road with a 45 mph speed limit) depending on the dog.
> 
> 
> 
> *Pinch collars can be a blessing to older people, people with arthritis or stability issues who still want to be able to enjoy taking their dogs for walks.*


Yeah, IF they can get them on and off the dog. 

A hundred years ago or so, I was having a surgery on my wrist so I bought a prong collar for my adolescent male. Complete waste of money. In those days, there was no quick release prongs, so to get the thing on, you have to squeeze the link in enough for it to connect with the next link. Even if the pup wasn't a squirmy monster, there was absolutely no way I could do that after the surgery. 

So when they later came out, the quick release prong. I bought one of those too. LOL. That one you have to string the chain part through this tiny hole, while your dog is mad with the idea of a walk, and if you can manage to get the chain through the miniscule hole, then you have to use the quick release to hold onto the end of the chain. And you had better use an added connection because if anything hits that quick release, you will have a naked dog running around like a nut case. 

The more frail the individual, the more necessity for the dog to be trained and controllable without the power steering. German shepherds are dogs with such a great work ethic, such a need for interaction with their person, and such an ability to excel in training that I find it so sad that people often don't get up to walking on lead. In such a sue-crazy world, needing a correction collar to control a dog seems like a lose-lose situation for everyone involved.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

selzer said:


> Yeah, IF they can get them on and off the dog.
> 
> A hundred years ago or so, I was having a surgery on my wrist so I bought a prong collar for my adolescent male. Complete waste of money. In those days, there was no quick release prongs, so to get the thing on, you have to squeeze the link in enough for it to connect with the next link. Even if the pup wasn't a squirmy monster, there was absolutely no way I could do that after the surgery.
> 
> ...


I agree with the elderly struggling with getting a prong off and on and too many times the prong gets left on the dog. I also agree that training the dog becomes all the more important with age. It seems all training goes out the window once the prong collar goes on regardless of the owner's age. 

And for those who say wrap your neck / body part up to simulate fur when trying out the prong collar, that really is not correct. The prong should sit high up under the ears and be snug on the dog to make easy contact to deliver a correction, not loose with a layer of fur between it and the skin. Prongs work by causing discomfort and a degree of pain. If you really want to give a fair assessment of a prong it might be a good idea to leave it on for an extended period of time, moving one's head and neck around to simulate a dog's movement when on a walk, especially an extended one in addition to a correcting pop.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

My mom, with arthritic hands, never had an issue and it made it safer for her to walk her dogs. They were well trained, but they were still dogs and sometimes living things do unexpected things. It gave her that extra for those rare instances.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Shadow is not a big dog. But she is strong. I said for years that if I needed a prong I had failed at training my dogs. But after 5 years of watching Shadow lose her mind at anything that moved once outside her yard, 5 years of having her more eager to go home then go for a walk, 5 years of repeated injuries to both of us caused by her intense fear I gave in and tried one. 
I wish I had done it sooner. It allowed just enough to get her attention and refocus her on me. It required careful timing and proper use. Within a few weeks I saw results that I had failed to get in years of work. I had a dog who was excited to go for walks, not cowering in her crate or running away to hide. I had a dog who sniffed things and experienced the world outside with joy and wonder instead of one who was anxious and waiting for the next killer lawn sign or evil plastic bag.
She no longer wears it for the most part, although I keep it with us always. She walks nicely, seldom pulls and wears her martingale collar. (Because her little head allows slipping of collars)
It was a training tool, and is now no longer needed.
As far as getting it on and off? My hands don't work very well, too many broken and dislocated fingers and two that were severed and reattached. I had fairly minimal difficulty with squeezing the prongs together, most caused by Shadow fidgeting around.


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## Mvp (Oct 21, 2018)

I was told by my trainer to leave the prong on loose at the bottom of the neck. We left it on all day. Otherwise, I was told if tight, the dog will always be in drive. Corrections worked when it was loose but I didn’t feel that was getting the good results I needed. Then when I met a police k 9 trainer, he put it below the ears and tight and I noticed immediately great results with dog aggression after three corrections. I didn’t notice the dog in drive all day when it was tight.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Mvp said:


> I was told by my trainer to leave the prong on loose at the bottom of the neck. We left it on all day. Otherwise, I was told if tight, the dog will always be in drive. Corrections worked when it was loose but I didn’t feel that was getting the good results I needed. Then when I met a police k 9 trainer, he put it below the ears and tight and I noticed immediately great results with dog aggression after three corrections. I didn’t notice the dog in drive all day when it was tight.


The first trainer was... well, erm... an idiot. Wouldn’t use him again if I were you! It’s a great way to injure your dogs vocals, and it’s pretty useless for anything else loose like that. Except maybe causing skin damage from improper use. 

High and snug is the way to go. Not tight, or you lose room for corrections, but same principle as a flat collar, just able to slip two fingers under.


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## Luke Doggy Dog 63 (May 3, 2019)

Okay I picked up my puppy Friday at 5 pm since then it has been amazement and concussion the confusing part is his drive was not what I was expecting he is later back calm which is just what I wanted he walks through the neighborhood slack leash he ignores all the dogs, cats and rabbits the only dogs he reacted to was some loud aggressive hounds and then when I stood still he stops sits and the barker he would stop and sit when I stoped 75% of the time half way around the walk he does it 100% he learned off in just a few minutes I could go on is this normal for a 4 month old GSD I know his drive can ramp up at any time but I love him soooooooo much I couldn't be happier


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## Luke Doggy Dog 63 (May 3, 2019)

Oh I almost forgot no need for prong collar. He also reacted to my wife's pacemaker imedeatly in the truck when we picked him up and is so gentle with her were ever my wife goes in the yard he is there and when she sits in the chair he lays by her side again this is not what I expected out of my new pup I am so amazed and happy


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Ah, just enjoy him, in all his stages. Sounds like you’re doing it right, and he sounds like a great pup. Just remember that when he gets to the adolescent stage, that’s when they throw a lot of people through the loop. Just like a teenage boy going through puberty. A joy one day, a demon the next. Lol. But they do revert to well behaved dogs if the training is always in place. Take tons of pictures, and just enjoy. Don’t have the “waiting for the other shoe to drop” emotions, calm, easily trainable pups are not as rare as people make them out to be.


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## Mvp (Oct 21, 2018)

Jcrest, he’s the guy that sold me the resource guarding Czech dog


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Mvp said:


> Jcrest, he’s the guy that sold me the resource guarding Czech dog


The OP sold you the resource guarder? Or the OP’s new pup is from the same breeder? I’m a little lost here.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Mvp said:


> Jcrest, he’s the guy that sold me the resource guarding Czech dog


Sorry, little fuzzy with two post about the same puppy. You mean the breeder that sold you the pup was the one who also told you to leave the prong loose? That’s just sad. Even someone as inexperienced in the training world knows that’s not the proper use of a prong. Not knocking you at all, you trusted your breeder, and the breeder led you astray. It’s no wonder your pup had issues.


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## Luke Doggy Dog 63 (May 3, 2019)

I'm the op about the prong collar I didn't sell a dog I picked one up and no need for a prong collar


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

lhczth said:


> My mom, with arthritic hands, never had an issue and it made it safer for her to walk her dogs. They were well trained, but they were still dogs and sometimes living things do unexpected things. It gave her that extra for those rare instances.


Well, my carpul tunnel surgery hands had plenty of trouble with the prong. I have a friend who is the age of my parents, and they use a prong, and they too have trouble getting it on and off. Other folks I know let the thing be so loose they cat just get it over their head. 

My problem though may not be ordinary, as I also drop stuff all the time, which is a symptom. I drop dog leads. Did twice in one ring event and NQd because of it. My dogs are great though, they feel the leash go down and turn and come to me and wait for me to pick it up. 

I don't think it is all coincidence that folks that use prong collars have dogs that will drag them off their feet if they see a squirrel or deer or if a leaf blows up above. I use a flat collar or martingale when they go off the property maybe once or twice a year, and they turn and wait for me to pick up the lead if I drop it. Even the ones that were trained with prongs (not by me) that I got after they were 18 months or 3 years old. 

We do what we have to do. These dogs are highly trainable, and actually do want to be with us. I can't manage the prong collar with my wrists, and I need dogs that will not lose their minds over deer or squirrels, and will come to me and stand and wait for me to pick the darn leash up. 

I am glad the OP's pup doesn't need a prong at this point.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

selzer said:


> I don't think it is all coincidence that folks that use prong collars have dogs that will drag them off their feet if they see a squirrel or deer or if a leaf blows up above.


This^. I have to laugh when people ask me how do I get my dogs to "_____". Yet, when I watch those people or see some of those same issues that I observed posted on forums, I wonder how they get their dogs to act like that.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Tools don't make a trainer for sure.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Over the years I have found that most pet owners give ineffective corrections that become nothing more then annoying background noise to a dog. They also become equipment wise if training isn't happening, which makes the equipment useless. 
My husband outweighs me and is stronger. He hated walking Bud because he got dragged everywhere. The choke was less then useless. He simply could not grasp what a correction was, so Bud did whatever he felt like with full knowledge that no one would stop him. 
No tool will help if you don't use it properly.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

David Winners said:


> Tools don't make a trainer for sure.


LOL, I am no trainer.  I cannot forget Rally Novice A, the weekend I titled 3 dogs and put a leg on another. I started with Babsy on the course and somehow got the leach hooked around her ear. You can't touch the dog or you NQ. I did not want to NQ. So she went around the entire course with the leash around her ear. LOL. 

And the Judge gave me 89 points on Arwen and 90 points on Babs. Ok. I thought I had a clean run with Babs and asked the judge what we did wrong. She told me that she LOVED the dogs, she wanted to get them a new handler. She explained that I went 1 step back and then two and then two again instead of three. 10 point deduction. I would have had a 99 and a 100. Fooey! 

I titled 6 dogs between July and December that year. 3 in Novice A and 3 in Novice B. I was working full time up until November, driving 1.5 hours each way to work, and being single, I was the only one doing anything with the dogs. Never used a prong or a e-collar on them, and no way could they pull like a freight train or they would have been NQ'd every time. 

I am sorry, but every time I think of a Babsy story … I have equally good stories about Quinnie, and that just makes me want to die. I can't get over losing her. Losing them. Somehow, with so many dogs, I had a repoir with each of them. They knew what I wanted and wanted to give it to me. They were truly under voice control in any environment. I never felt I needed any extra anything to keep them safe. 

I'm sorry, I pulling this off the tracks. But I put Quinnie on a down stay in the middle of the IX Center Christmas Classic dog show, and walked 20+ feet away across the carpet she was not allowed on, and sat and ate my lunch with my nieces, while people walked around her. She had just turned two. I thought that she was still such a puppy, I would wait a year before breeding her. On her third birthday, they diagnosed her with that horrible disease, and she died before she was 3.5 years. Spectacular. She was. I never had to correct her. Ok, she barked like fool her first puppy class. And she couldn't stay to save her life at the end of puppy classes. And then, one day it just clicked. I am sorry if I think people go to correction collars way too quickly. I wish everyone had a dog like Arwen -- 3 first places ribbons on her three trips in the ring for her 3 legs of her CD; or Babsy, RN, RA, CD, and she placed on all but 1 leg; or Heidi, I got a corkboard of ribbons for her, she got an RE leg, but then I stopped her when she hurt her back jumping; or Baby Quinnie, who loved her toys, was rock solid wherever, obedient, sweet, beautiful, special. I don't know if you get that deep, deep connection when you feel you have to have a prong collar to control the dog, even in special circumstances. I don't know if the collars just impede our attitude about whether the dog needs to be trained, or if it impedes the training itself. Training is communication. I communicate what I want to the dog, the dog communicates back by doing what I want. If I have to use a correction collar to get the dog to comply, do I have it? I don't think so, and am sorry if that pisses some people off. The more dogs I raise, the less I need corrections, and the easier it is for me to communicate to them, and get the response back to what I want. So not only do we not get the level of bond that we might have developed, but we do not gain from each dog the experience in training/communication.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

selzer said:


> Well, my carpul tunnel surgery hands had plenty of trouble with the prong. I have a friend who is the age of my parents, and they use a prong, and they too have trouble getting it on and off. Other folks I know let the thing be so loose they cat just get it over their head.
> 
> My problem though may not be ordinary, as I also drop stuff all the time, which is a symptom. I drop dog leads. Did twice in one ring event and NQd because of it. My dogs are great though, they feel the leash go down and turn and come to me and wait for me to pick it up.
> 
> ...


I personally think they're nice if used properly. I got a dog that when he came to me was one that would try to drag you off his feet. Harness was a no go and he would flip out on a flat collar. Prong I got him walking decently within the same day and was no longer feeling like I'd attached the leash to a wild animal. 

My other dogs can see a running animal offleash and not chase after it or stop immediately from verbal command. 

I do agree though there is a reason many people end up needing prongs. But they can have legitimate uses and be very beneficial in the right circumstances. Also though some people just get dogs with drives they have no clue how to control and can manage them with a prong. Would it be better if they learned to properly train the dog? Obviously that's a yes but at least they're trying and didn't just dump it off at a shelter which many other people do.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

selzer said:


> David Winners said:
> 
> 
> > Tools don't make a trainer for sure.
> ...


Thanks Sue! I really did laugh out loud with the leash on the ear thing. That totally sounds like something I would do ? I've wrapped a long line up in my legs and hit the ground a couple times before in certification.

I could certainly train without any tools. It wouldn't be as efficient for me. It wouldn't be as clear to the dog. It would just take longer. And there is nothing wrong with taking your time with a dog if you have it. Sometimes I need to get a dog under control before it hurts itself or someone else. I do have a particular way that I like to train loose leash walking through leash pressure with a prong. I'm definitely guilty of taking the easy way out. I'm not harsh in any way though. I use an e-collar to proof recall and for off leash walks in town.

I'm not pro or anti prong, or any other tool. I'm totally pro "train your dog in a way that is fair and effective."


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

@selzer said _The more dogs I raise, the less I need corrections, and the easier it is for me to communicate to them, and get the response back to what I want. So not only do we not get the level of bond that we might have developed, but we do not gain from each dog the experience in training/communication._

This. Most of us raise one or two dogs at a time. Many cities don’t allow people to own more than 3 maximum. There is a long time between puppies. When you get a new puppy or two every year, you learn fast from mistakes and you build on your successes. I had a problem that started with leash frustration in puppy class, then forced isolation from pano. We have done remarkably well since then (dog and I), but I know if I had another puppy today, I would make many different choices and decisions, and probably have a much easier and better trained dog from the beginning.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

David Winners said:


> Thanks Sue! I really did laugh out loud with the leash on the ear thing. That totally sounds like something I would do ? I've wrapped a long line up in my legs and hit the ground a couple times before in certification.
> 
> I could certainly train without any tools. It wouldn't be as efficient for me. It wouldn't be as clear to the dog. It would just take longer. And there is nothing wrong with taking your time with a dog if you have it. Sometimes I need to get a dog under control before it hurts itself or someone else. I do have a particular way that I like to train loose leash walking through leash pressure with a prong. I'm definitely guilty of taking the easy way out. I'm not harsh in any way though. I use an e-collar to proof recall and for off leash walks in town.
> 
> I'm not pro or anti prong, or any other tool. I'm totally pro "train your dog in a way that is fair and effective."


Well, I have this marvelous instrument that God gave me and it can administer a correction or negative marker quite clearly. It can also administer a positive marker that is available to me at all times and places whether I have pockets or not. 

I do have the luxury of time. That is, it means nothing at all to me whether a dog titles at 1 or at 4. It just depends on when I take the time to register for a trial. I got 6 dogs titled within 6 months, which, while working and driving 3 hours a day to get there and back, I think that was pretty effective. 

I watched the Rally advanced (off lead and some advanced signs) when I was titling Milla and Ninja in August, and thought, I could do that. And in December I titled Joy in Novice and Babs in Advanced. And I had never done excellent and after not working Heidi for 3 years I took she and Babs to a trial, and Babs got her CD and Heidi took first for her RA. But I signed up for two legs unless I screwed up. So I went the show secretary and moved up to Rally Excellent with Heidi. I had never done the signs before and she sure hadn't. But after doing the walk-through, I tried them one time in the parking lot. She took first place. Is that effective? Does it take more time, especially when you can't use corrective collars in the ring. I think I was able to train her more effectively and efficiently than if I was using a prong or e-collar. Darn. I am going to have to put her down too. 

Lastly, while I have the quantity of time in that I can take months or years to do a thing, I don't have any abundance of time to work individually with each dog. But if we are talking about using the collar to train aggression out of dog, to make him safe for the owners he would be returned to, wouldn't the success of that be dependent on how well the owners could convey to the dog that they do indeed have the physical, upper hand? 

I currently have two puppies out there. A Bear/Kojak pup that is about a hear an a half. I placed him with a dog trainer at 8 weeks. I hear from a mutual friend that he was crated most of the time when she went over there, and the dog ended up living with her. They used prong and e-collar on the dog from early on up. She has several of my dogs and more than came from mating them, and she says he is not like them. He is vicious. She had him to the point of being ok with people and most of her dogs, and then the original guy got him back, she had to take him again and now he is not to be trusted with dogs or people. 

His litter brother when to another dog trainer and he is doing fine with her. 

One of his litter sisters live with a woman and a couple of kids. She's fine. 

And the last I have She has been perfect with me, and my nieces and my sister, no problem. 

The other dog is a Karma Kojak pup. Her owners called me to tell me how she is doing nose work and went through this training and every one says how wonderful she is I dunno. It seems to me the folks that have the most trouble are those that have been quick to use the correction collars. And think of it. If you go directly to the great guns, what do you have left?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

selzer said:


> David Winners said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks Sue! I really did laugh out loud with the leash on the ear thing. That totally sounds like something I would do ? I've wrapped a long line up in my legs and hit the ground a couple times before in certification.
> ...


I wouldn't call my use of the e-collar or prong the big guns. I typically use just 2 fingers on a prong and work at the lowest level the dog can perceive on an e-collar.

I almost never use corrections to stop aggression unless it's just the dog being a knucklehead. If there is an underlying issue, we work on that. To get to that work, I need the dog to understand the leash. Most dogs I work with pull like a tractor when I get them. A prong allows me to spend 15 minutes establishing a method of communicating that the dog understands in black and white so we can move onto other training. When I can get to a flat collar, that's what I use.

I think we are just coming from 2 different perspectives. I have a dog for 2-6 weeks. They are an adolescent or adult. They have issues.

My military dog (eventually) didn't need any equipment to run around Afghanistan off leash 150 meters away. 

I totally understand where you are coming from.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

LuvShepherds said:


> @selzer said _The more dogs I raise, the less I need corrections, and the easier it is for me to communicate to them, and get the response back to what I want. So not only do we not get the level of bond that we might have developed, but we do not gain from each dog the experience in training/communication._
> 
> This. Most of us raise one or two dogs at a time. Many cities don’t allow people to own more than 3 maximum. There is a long time between puppies. When you get a new puppy or two every year, you learn fast from mistakes and you build on your successes. I had a problem that started with leash frustration in puppy class, then forced isolation from pano. We have done remarkably well since then (dog and I), but I know if I had another puppy today, I would make many different choices and decisions, and probably have a much easier and better trained dog from the beginning.


I dunno. If you got another dog today, there is no telling what challenge there would be. I think sometimes we do not get the dog we want, we get the dog we need. And it isn't the easy ones like my Quinnie that we learn most from. It is the knuckleheads, those that make us think outside of the box. After we get them where they ought to be, we have made a journey, both us and the dog. 

If I had 2-6 weeks to make progress with a dog, I'd probably have to approach things totally differently. I think there is quality time and quantity time, and both can work in favor of a dog. 2-6 weeks isn't the quantity time. Like with Dolly, she had to heal mentally and physically before I could do anything with her. I left her alone for 6 months, and then went slowly with her and the results were amazing. But if I did not have that six months to let her relax and settle and heal and decide whether she wanted to throw her lot in with humans again, I don't know if I could have ever homed her with a little child, and I ended up keeping her until she was 7 years old. Not because she wasn't suitable for a family, but the right family did not present itself until then, and I just figured she had a home with me forever.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

Wait until at least six months to introduce a prong collar. Starmark collars are also a good choice and some say can be used before 6 months. I personally think it's too young before 6 months. I also highly recommended "saving the neck" for prong or star collars. What this means is harness only.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I put prongs on early. It really depends on how you introduce them and how you use them. I use them for communication and introduce them at 4 months. Pair them with food and very light pops when you want attention, not enough for a correction, just to get attention.


Lots of studies on harnesses and how they are harming muscular skeletal development because they put pressure on points and force the dog to move oddly.

But for the most part, I just use a flat collar and food. If you teach them upfront, you don't have to use corrections very often.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

Jax08 said:


> I put prongs on early. It really depends on how you introduce them and how you use them. I use them for communication and introduce them at 4 months. Pair them with food and very light pops when you want attention, not enough for a correction, just to get attention.
> 
> 
> Lots of studies on harnesses and how they are harming muscular skeletal development because they put pressure on points and force the dog to move oddly.
> ...


Got a link to that study? I'd like to read up. I had not heard this and I am not a vet, but the action of a harness just seems much more natural in terms of steering than pulling an animal around by its neck. Is it like grain is good, no grain is bad, argument? I should have added, harness only until 6 months. Snap collar after.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Frisco19 said:


> Got a link to that study? I'd like to read up. I had not heard this and I am not a vet, but the action of a harness just seems much more natural in terms of steering than pulling an animal around by its neck. Is it like grain is good, no grain is bad, argument? I should have added, harness only until 6 months. Snap collar after.


as far as steering goes I find the neck works best for me. I tried moving dogs by harness. It isn't elegant as it pulls the whole body sideways. I've not used a head harness. I don't think I'd like to be led around by the nose.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Frisco19 said:


> Got a link to that study? I'd like to read up. I had not heard this and I am not a vet, but the action of a harness just seems much more natural in terms of steering than pulling an animal around by its neck. Is it like grain is good, no grain is bad, argument? I should have added, harness only until 6 months. Snap collar after.


You don't pull them around by their neck. You don't want to pull them around on a harness either.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I don't like the potential twist to the neck that a head harness poses. That said, on a non reactive dog, they work well as long as they don't absolutely hate the strap across their nose.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

Steve Strom said:


> You don't pull them around by their neck. You don't want to pull them around on a harness either.


A little exaggerated Steve. So you never have to pull a dog to the left when he's going to the right or vice versa? Especially an untrained puppy that does nothing but pull. Isn't that pulling the neck????


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

David Winners said:


> I don't like the potential twist to the neck that a head harness poses. That said, on a non reactive dog, they work well as long as they don't absolutely hate the strap across their nose.


Strap across the nose? Maybe we are talking about different harnesses.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

This is what I am talking about:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07QLKLWJ8/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

No pull


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Little pops to guide, I'm real conscious of keeping a loose leash. Tight leash=dogs gone. Walking a puppy on leash is more like I'm wandering around and calling him to me here and there. Like Jax, I put a prong on early because I'm going to use it later and I want to intro it and make it a part of a normal routine. I find that easier then waiting and then using it to try and stop something.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Frisco19 said:


> Strap across the nose? Maybe we are talking about different harnesses.


I obviously said head harness.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I will use a harness to contain a puppy if necessary but I certainly avoid directing the dog with pressure on a leash until we get to that in training. I teach almost all behaviors with luring in the puppy stages until at least 6 months old. I typically have a harness on the dog and a long line attached but dragging, just in case they take off after something or towards the road at a dangerous time.

I really don't like no pull style harnesses on puppies. They work because they are uncomfortable and I don't want any negative associations with pulling on a harness. When my dogs are adults, harness means time to work and they need to be able to pull on their harness to do their job, be it service work or detection. 

I encourage puppies to want to be with me because I am the most fun thing ever. I have all the good treats and toys. Everything good comes from doing stuff with me. The bigger the challenge the bigger the reward.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

David Winners said:


> I encourage puppies to want to be with me because I am the most fun thing ever. I have all the good treats and toys. Everything good comes from doing stuff with me. The bigger the challenge the bigger the reward.


We can agree on something.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

David Winners said:


> I obviously said head harness.


It wasn't obvious to me because I was not referring to a head harness and took your rebuttal towards my no pull harness recommendation which I stand by for 6 months to save the neck for training. No pull works well.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Frisco19 said:


> David Winners said:
> 
> 
> > I encourage puppies to want to be with me because I am the most fun thing ever. I have all the good treats and toys. Everything good comes from doing stuff with me. The bigger the challenge the bigger the reward.
> ...


In theory perhaps.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Frisco19 said:


> It wasn't obvious to me because I was not referring to a head harness and took your rebuttal towards my no pull harness recommendation which I stand by for 6 months to save the neck for training. No pull works well.


Car2ner mentioned head harness. I read that as a reply to her.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I simply cannot wrap my brain around this whole rush to school puppies. With any equipment. 
I start puppies by making life a game. I encourage behavior I want to build on and mostly ignore behavior I don't like. 
As my Gram said, when the audience leaves the show's over. So if your pup is being a doof and you ignore it, the behaviour loses appeal.
Leash walking should start with convincing puppy that it wants to come every where I go. That is not likely if walks involve long, boring marches. If I am encouraging exploration and fun then 30 seconds of shaping behavior will likely go unnoticed but if I am controlling everything and offering a minute of fun, then I become a sucky dictator who should be avoided and ignored. 

Front clip harnesses can put weird pressure on joints and with a pup that could create long term issues. Encouraging a pup to bounce along beside you with praise, treats and fun is a great place to start. Flat collars and light long lines are adequate equipment.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

Steve Strom said:


> Car2ner mentioned head harness. I read that as a reply to her.


Ok my bad, I apologize. Obviously a little sensitive.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Frisco19 said:


> Steve Strom said:
> 
> 
> > Car2ner mentioned head harness. I read that as a reply to her.
> ...


Lol... I'm not sensitive at all. We have contrasting ideas about how to treat puppies. That's fine with me.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Frisco19 said:


> Got a link to that study? I'd like to read up. I had not heard this and I am not a vet, but the action of a harness just seems much more natural in terms of steering than pulling an animal around by its neck. Is it like grain is good, no grain is bad, argument? I should have added, harness only until 6 months. Snap collar after.



I'm sure I can find the studies when I have time but I'm swamped and working OT this week. Google it and look for the actual medical ones.

No, it's not like grain is good, grain is bad. Actual documentation of the changes it exerts on the body.

I would think that would be especially detrimental on a growing puppy.


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## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

David Winners said:


> I obviously said head harness.



I like the Gentle Leader (used to be called a Promise collar), not a Halti. I've used them for over 30 years. What I like the best is how it can become a flat collar if you take the nose piece down. They are precise, and if you've done any luring with a puppy, a Gentle Leader doesn't do anything other than allow you to control the dog's nose, thereby controlling the dog's motion. Works for horses, works for dogs too.

It's great for teaching a good heel where you need precision of motion. I've seen dog's just short of insanity settle and work perfectly in one.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

David Winners said:


> Lol... I'm not sensitive at all. We have contrasting ideas about how to treat puppies. That's fine with me.


Just to be clear, I was talking about myself. I was apologizing for the oversight and saying I was a little over sensitive, not you.

Yes, lol, it's absolutely fine with me too that we have some contrasting ideas on how to "train", not "treat" as you referenced which has a negative connotation, and is a little unfair.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

cvamoca said:


> I like the Gentle Leader (used to be called a Promise collar), not a Halti. I've used them for over 30 years. What I like the best is how it can become a flat collar if you take the nose piece down. They are precise, and if you've done any luring with a puppy, a Gentle Leader doesn't do anything other than allow you to control the dog's nose, thereby controlling the dog's motion. Works for horses, works for dogs too.
> 
> It's great for teaching a good heel where you need precision of motion. I've seen dog's just short of insanity settle and work perfectly in one.


I think they can work for some situations, however some dogs can have pretty strong reactions to them. Not just the defeated protests like they show on some of the vids. It certainly appears innocuous, but as with any tool some dogs are not good candidates for their use.


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## gsdsteve (Apr 24, 2010)

A good Herm Sprenger prong collar is a great training tool. At that age, however, you might want to start with a Starmark collar!


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## gsdsteve (Apr 24, 2010)

Every professional trainer of working dogs that I know hates that dumb contraption!!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Tom Rose was known to advocate the use of haltis for teaching correct head positions. 

A dog and animal trainer (bulls, stallions, wolf dogs, etc.) and breeder of working line GSDs I know of promotes the use of haltis on reactive dogs to keep them under control until training takes place.

I have to wonder if people who are against haltis do so from a place of personal experience with the tool on large, reactive or aggressive dogs.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I think they definitely have a place in a trainer's toolbox. I wouldn't use them on dogs that will bolt towards or away from something because of the twist it puts on their neck when they hit the end of the leash.

I can see using one to keep the dog punted in the directing of travel instead of focusing on something.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

David Winners said:


> I think they definitely have a place in a trainer's toolbox. I wouldn't use them on dogs that will bolt towards or away from something because of the twist it puts on their neck when they hit the end of the leash.
> 
> I can see using one to keep the dog punted in the directing of travel instead of focusing on something.


I agree and disagree on this one. Yes, the halti may have a negative physical impact on the dog BUT it gives people, especially those of a smaller physique or of age, far more control over a dog that can't be achieved by other methods except for maybe a DD.

Another friend is a dog trainer and every time women or an elderly person comes to him with a large unruly or reactive dog, the first thing he does is put the dog in a halti and the owners are always amazed at the ease of the newly gained control. 

I think it boils down to does one prioritize the safety and welfare of the dog or does one prioritize the safety and welfare of a person or animal that may be harmed or attacked by the dog.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Being controversial for controversy sake is getting a bit tiring...


Every person should make a decision based on their OWN research and what works for their particular dog. Just because it works for one and is fine, doesn’t mean it will work for all and be fine. Use your friends and family, not a forum, to toot your own horn with your seemingly “better” ways. 

I’ve used all methods on all different types of dogs. The one common thread FOR ME was that harnesses, whether pull or no pull, created pulling issues. I never say never to a device, implement, or equipment because I never know what I’m going to end up with, and what method may work better for that particular dog. 

I never use anything for pups beyond vocal cues and luring. They still respect boundaries, heel while walking, and will loose leash walk if we are in an area that requires use of a leash.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Who is being controversial?

Who is tooting their own horn?

Why should people not speak freely of what tools and methods work well for them or what tools and methods they know that trainers use on a thread about training and tools? Did I miss something?


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Who is being controversial?
> 
> Who is tooting their own horn?
> 
> Why should people not speak freely of what tools and methods work well for them or what tools and methods they know that trainers use on a thread about training and tools? Did I miss something?


People should speak freely of what tools and methods they use. When it gets to “well this is what I use on my dog, and it’s obviously a superior way to do it because everything I do with my puppy is the only correct way,” is what I’m speaking of. Arguing for arguing sake if you will. Not really curious about how equipment works if it isn’t the equipment they use, they just use it as a means of starting crap.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> David Winners said:
> 
> 
> > I think they definitely have a place in a trainer's toolbox. I wouldn't use them on dogs that will bolt towards or away from something because of the twist it puts on their neck when they hit the end of the leash.
> ...


Thank you for posting this, as it's not something I had considered. I actually have someone in mind that could benefit from this right now.

Seriously, thank you.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Nigel said:


> I think they can work for some situations, however some dogs can have pretty strong reactions to them. Not just the defeated protests like they show on some of the vids. It certainly appears innocuous, but as with any tool some dogs are not good candidates for their use.





MineAreWorkingline said:


> Tom Rose was known to advocate the use of haltis for teaching correct head positions.
> 
> A dog and animal trainer (bulls, stallions, wolf dogs, etc.) and breeder of working line GSDs I know of promotes the use of haltis on reactive dogs to keep them under control until training takes place.
> 
> I have to wonder if people who are against haltis do so from a place of personal experience with the tool on large, reactive or aggressive dogs.


Not against halti's or those who've had success using them in fact it's others success with them in why we tried it. We found out the hard way though that some dogs will go beyond the typical protest, probably not overly common, but it happens. In being fair in our training the dogs perception needs to be taken into account.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Nigel said:


> Not against halti's or those who've had success using them in fact it's others success with them in why we tried it. We found out the hard way though that some dogs will go beyond the typical protest, probably not overly common, but it happens. In being fair in our training the dogs perception needs to be taken into account.


I don't disagree with that at all. Honest question, what was your scenario and results with the halti that left you dissatisfied if you don't mind my asking?


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

I know you’re not asking me MAWL, but I tried a halti on Lyka when she was highly leash reactive. She was so opposed to it, that she ripped her snout (nose) trying to get it off. She needed two stitches. And this was after a slow introduction with treats. She was fine with it on until I attacked a leash a few weeks in, and that’s when she went nutzo, and sliced her nose open before I could get it off her.

Worked great for other dogs in the past, and I would use it again if it was well received by the dog I was working. It was just a nope for Lyka!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I don't use a harness on a puppy for the same reason I do not use a flexi-leash. We put harnesses on sled dogs because the shoulders can pull the best. I understand that they have harnesses that are supposed to discourage pulling, but for me, I do prefer the neck, which is strong and muscular, but not as strong as the shoulders. 

I don't use a head collar or head harness, gentle leader or halti collar because of the risk of injury. Yes, the dog will go where we direct the head and the body will follow. And you do not need much strength to get the head in the direction you want. But there are so many ways to inadvertently yank that head around. For instance, if you fall. Yes, they kind of self-correct, but if you are all accustomed to correcting with a leash-pop, you will easily hurt your dog with a halter because if you pop that, you can damage. And you can say, you don't correct with this collar, but there is body memory, and your body might correct before your brain catches up. At least, mine will. 

I use a martingale from baby-puppy on up. It's like a flat collar, but with a feature that prevents the collar being slipped. I have one that is for the ring, that is a set length, and most of my dogs fit it fine. But I have some that are adjustable for puppies, and quick release.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Tom Rose was known to advocate the use of haltis for teaching correct head positions.
> 
> A dog and animal trainer (bulls, stallions, wolf dogs, etc.) and breeder of working line GSDs I know of promotes the use of haltis on reactive dogs to keep them under control until training takes place.
> 
> I have to wonder if people who are against haltis do so from a place of personal experience with the tool on large, reactive or aggressive dogs.


I used a halti on Sabs, because it was a different thing the the collar or harness that she worked in so useful as a cue that I needed her on down time. I could not speak to it's effectiveness as a tool because she did not need it.
I tried it briefly on Punk and scrapped it due to her habit of bolting and spinning when she spooked.
I can see it's potential use though and would never discount it, on the right dog. It would have been tremendously helpful with my Malamute.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

So many opinions on the same topic and lots of solutions. None are right or wrong. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Chuck94! (Feb 8, 2018)

I have a couple Herm Sprenger prongs which are great quality. I used to use them a lot, now it's mainly the e-collar


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I just want to clarify that I don't use or recommend a halti as a standalone tool on a seriously reactive dog although you might get away with that on a dog who is only a puller. I only use a halti with a DD collar and flat collar for backup on a dog which might harm others.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I was trained by a professional dog raiser on how to use a Halti and even so, my dog nearly broke her neck on a simple walk. I had to take it off midway through the walk. A dog that likes to look around to survey what is going on and has a 360 swivel head (metaphorically) should never be placed in a head collar. It can cause neck damage. She always wants to know who is behind us and can walk one direction while turning to see who or what is there. Yes, I could have trained her to only look at what is directly in front of her, but where is the pleasure in that? I want leash time to be joyful. Now, my other dog is in a prong when I know he’s going to be very squirmy, like going to the vet specialist. There is too much to see and smell in a hospital setting and I need something stronger than my personality to keep him in check. He gets overwhelmed because there are so many different moving pieces that require his attention. The prong is actually soothing because it limits what he can do.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Frisco19 said:


> So many opinions on the same topic and lots of solutions. None are right or wrong.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


How about, if it works, its right. If it doesn't, its wrong.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

Steve Strom said:


> How about, if it works, its right. If it doesn't, its wrong.


Whatever.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> I was trained by a professional dog raiser on how to use a Halti and even so, my dog nearly broke her neck on a simple walk. I had to take it off midway through the walk. A dog that likes to look around to survey what is going on and has a 360 swivel head (metaphorically) should never be placed in a head collar. It can cause neck damage. She always wants to know who is behind us and can walk one direction while turning to see who or what is there. Yes, I could have trained her to only look at what is directly in front of her, but where is the pleasure in that? I want leash time to be joyful. Now, my other dog is in a prong when I know he’s going to be very squirmy, like going to the vet specialist. There is too much to see and smell in a hospital setting and I need something stronger than my personality to keep him in check. He gets overwhelmed because there are so many different moving pieces that require his attention. The prong is actually soothing because it limits what he can do.


Using a halti isn't about needlessly controlling a dog's head position. One can teach a focused heel if that was one's intent.


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## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

I train my dogs to pull in a working harness for sports, and I think the non-pull harnesses can be harmful. Other than that, just about any tool used properly is fine by me. I haven't used a halti but I do know of two older people who were seriously hurt- one actually died- walking a pulling dog (she was pulled down and hit her head... horrible). So I'd absolutely have these types of owners use a halti over being pulled down or losing control of their dog! 

I do think, though, that there are some tools that I won't agree to disagree on the use of --- I won't cattle prod my dog for example even if I mark it and she knows why she is being corrected. I won't choke my dog to the point of near passing out to gain control (this happens more often than you might think... sadly). While a non-pull harness isn't the same level of harm, I do see a lot of puppies in them and I have seen dogs that I believe were physically affected by wearing one. So, sure, there are some tools or some extreme use of tools I don't think are fair when training a dog. 

By the way... just to stir the pot, I love flexis for certain situations... ha ha ha.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Saco said:


> I train my dogs to pull in a working harness for sports, and I think the non-pull harnesses can be harmful. Other than that, just about any tool used properly is fine by me. I haven't used a halti but I do know of two older people who were seriously hurt- one actually died- walking a pulling dog (she was pulled down and hit her head... horrible). So I'd absolutely have these types of owners use a halti over being pulled down or losing control of their dog!
> 
> I do think, though, that there are some tools that I won't agree to disagree on the use of --- I won't cattle prod my dog for example even if I mark it and she knows why she is being corrected. I won't choke my dog to the point of near passing out to gain control (this happens more often than you might think... sadly). While a non-pull harness isn't the same level of harm, I do see a lot of puppies in them and I have seen dogs that I believe were physically affected by wearing one. So, sure, there are some tools or some extreme use of tools I don't think are fair when training a dog.
> 
> By the way... just to stir the pot, I love flexis for certain situations... ha ha ha.


Lmao @ flexis, I may or may not have used these as well. I may or may not have one in use for a particular dog on occasions now. 

I successfully used a halti on my Rott, who just wanted anyone’s attention that was in front of him in a very desperate way. The halti allowed me to stay on my feet, and train him that people and other dogs were a treat, and he was allowed them when he behaved (aka, not pulling me across the grass while I hung on for dear life). He eventually got the message, and we were able to switch to a flat collar for the rest of his life. It’s great as a training tool, but unless you’re elderly or infirm, I personally believe they shouldn’t be used as a regular daily collar/leash. I’d prefer to hire a dog walker if I become unable to walk the dogs, than put them in a halti permanently. And I mean for walking, not having it on the dog 24/7 before someone jumps my butt that no collar should be left on 24/7 ?

We’ve been super heavy in teaching the pups off leash control due to my surgery, I’m don’t ever see getting to that point with Lyka and Crios, and that’s why DH has the responsibility of daily walks for those two. And some will probably lose their marbles when they hear that I tie off the pups leashes to my wheelchair when we are in areas that require a leash. But they still walk right next to me, loose leash the whole time. The leash is there to appease the rule makers, not because the pups need them at this point.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Using a halti isn't about needlessly controlling a dog's head position. One can teach a focused heel if that was one's intent.


No, it’s not, but one unexpected side effect is that it does force a dog’s head into a limited range of positions. A dog who wants to look suddenly from one side to another won’t be able to and will fight the collar to do so. It is designed to jerk the head down when a dog makes a sudden move. I wanted it to work but it didn’t. I only tried the head collar after the same dog bolted on me late at night when I wasn’t paying attention. She was in a regular collar and a leash. I lost my balance and had a very painful injury that took a year to heal.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

Luke Doggy Dog 63 said:


> Hello I have a 4 month old male well not yet I pick him up this Saturday so is a prong collar best for leash training or is it good for all training along with a squeaky toy for attention


OP - I hope you got your answer out of this mess of a thread now on debating Halti's and other contraptions.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> No, it’s not, but one unexpected side effect is that it does force a dog’s head into a limited range of positions. A dog who wants to look suddenly from one side to another won’t be able to and will fight the collar to do so. It is designed to jerk the head down when a dog makes a sudden move. I wanted it to work but it didn’t. I only tried the head collar after the same dog bolted on me late at night when I wasn’t paying attention. She was in a regular collar and a leash. I lost my balance and had a very painful injury that took a year to heal.


That is interesting. Are we talking the same piece of equipment? The one I am talking about does not restrict the dog's head movement in any way. In some ways, it is not much different than a dog wearing a muzzle by design but will not stop the dog from biting like a muzzle. In fact, if you could attach a leash to a basket muzzle, it would create the same range of motion effects. The only real difference is that it will tighten up or release pressure on the dog according to the tension on the leash where the muzzle is static.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Frisco19 said:


> Whatever.





Frisco19 said:


> OP - I hope you got your answer out of this mess of a thread now on debating Halti's and other contraptions.


MOD WARNING

Please refrain from snarky posts. 

Further violations may result in a temporary or permanent ban.

David
Forum Moderator


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

David Winners said:


> MOD WARNING
> 
> Please refrain from snarky posts.
> 
> ...


Whatever, you know what you want to do. It's personal with you, go for it. "Snarky" is subjective, really?. Is that in the forum rules? "Nobody be snarky". Go ahead and abuse your power. You should have sent a PM, but it's telling you didn't and needed to do this publicly.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Frisco19 said:


> Whatever.





Frisco19 said:


> OP - I hope you got your answer out of this mess of a thread now on debating Halti's and other contraptions.





Frisco19 said:


> Whatever, you know you want to do. It's personal with you, go for it. "Snarky" is subjective, really?. Is that in the forum rules? "Nobody be snarky". Go ahead and abuse your power. You should have sent a PM, but it's telling you didn't and needed to do this publicly.


This is not personal at all. I have no interest in abusing anything or anyone. It is simply my responsibility to encourage Forum members to follow the rules. If you would be more comfortable discussing this in a PM, that is fine.

From the Forum Rules. #1

INFORMATION SPECIFIC TO THIS BOARD: To be a participating member of this board you must follow these simple rules of conduct:

1. Be courteous to other members at all times;

Thank you,

David
Forum Moderator


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> That is interesting. Are we talking the same piece of equipment? The one I am talking about does not restrict the dog's head movement in any way. In some ways, it is not much different than a dog wearing a muzzle by design but will not stop the dog from biting like a muzzle. In fact, if you could attach a leash to a basket muzzle, it would create the same range of motion effects. The only real difference is that it will tighten up or release pressure on the dog according to the tension on the leash where the muzzle is static.


It’s either this one or the Halti. I tried both because my friend is a puppy raise and has a dozen collars in different sizes. It was almost 7 years ago. I will dig mine out and get a picture for you.

https://www.petsafe.net/gentleleader


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## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

LuvShepherds said:


> No, it’s not, but one unexpected side effect is that it does force a dog’s head into a limited range of positions. A dog who wants to look suddenly from one side to another won’t be able to and will fight the collar to do so. It is designed to jerk the head down when a dog makes a sudden move. I wanted it to work but it didn’t. I only tried the head collar after the same dog bolted on me late at night when I wasn’t paying attention. She was in a regular collar and a leash. I lost my balance and had a very painful injury that took a year to heal.



Again, I don't use a Halti, I use a Gentle Leader/Promise, and they are different. But I've taught it from puppyhood. The puppy doesn't fight it anymore than it fights being on a body lead or neck lead, less so if introduced to it correctly and slowly like any tool. Physically I cannot have a dog yank me or jerk me or I'll break something falling down, so this works for me and my dogs. We only use it until I'm comfortable they will walk on a loose lead without pulling, rearing, bucking or behaving in an unmanageable way. 

As I think back even my 10 yr old wolf dog was started on a GL. She was a sled dog and was super strong, no harness could ever have been used because in her mind a harness means PULL, pull hard, and fast, and a collar was a non feature to her. 

On the leash, they can look left and right and have full range of motion, as long as you aren't holding the leash too short and giving a bunch of corrections. This way it's pretty much correction free.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> It’s either this one or the Halti. I tried both because my friend is a puppy raise and has a dozen collars in different sizes. It was almost 7 years ago. I will dig mine out and get a picture for you.
> 
> https://www.petsafe.net/gentleleader


How does that restrict head movement?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> How does that restrict head movement?


The one I have jerks her head down if she moves suddenly at all. Because she may be mixed with another herding breed, her actions are much quicker than a typical German Shepherd and she darts her head around when looking for something to herd. She started fighting the motion and was clearly in physical distress.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> The one I have jerks her head down if she moves suddenly at all. Because she may be mixed with another herding breed, her actions are much quicker than a typical German Shepherd and she darts her head around when looking for something to herd. She started fighting the motion and was clearly in physical distress.


Mine doesn't do that.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Different dogs, different reactions.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

I think some of it may have to do with user error. It’s meant to get a loose leash walk from your dog. If the dog is already at the length of the leash, and makes a sudden movement, you can get a downward, or side pulling motion from it. It’s very jarring. I can see how neck injuries can occur if not utilized properly. If the leash is loose at your side with your dog, than full head movement should be possible. The same can happen if not fitted properly as well. Similar with a prong, there is a right and wrong way to fit, and then use, the collar.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> Different dogs, different reactions.


No, I meant the halti I have doesn't do that. It doesn't interfere with head movements nor pull their heads down. Maybe it is your dog's reaction to it that is doing that.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> No, I meant the halti I have doesn't do that. It doesn't interfere with head movements nor pull their heads down. Maybe it is your dog's reaction to it that is doing that.


picture please? I think Halti is a company and they make different harnesses. head harness, front clip harness, etc..


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I think the Halti company only makes 2 versions. I have had really good luck with haltis on some dogs. I prefer them to Gentle Leaders. The nose band is thicker, padded, and pressure releases with slack. Gentle Leader does not have a sliding ring to release pressure.

The halti also has a built in safety clip that goes to a vollar in case the dog manages to scrape it off you are still attached.

Some times I really like head halters. Some times I really like prong collars.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> picture please? I think Halti is a company and they make different harnesses. head harness, front clip harness, etc..


I wish I could. I looked all over to find mine to see exactly what mine is and am having no luck as I have not used it for several years. I wanted to post a picture of it here. If I find it, I will post it.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

https://www.chewy.com/halti-dog-headcollar-black/dp/117351

This is the type I have used. Also used the Gentle Leader a lot but I like this one better. Halti also makes an Opti Fit with a thicker noseband and no floating ring like this one


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

https://www.chewy.com/halti-optifit-dog-headcollar/dp/117358


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

https://www.chewy.com/petsafe-premier-gentle-leader-quick/dp/52153

This little scrap of nylon with no backup gives me no confidence with a big strong dog. It also goes into the eyes more.

But these seem to be preferred by a lot of trainers


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I don't disagree with that at all. Honest question, what was your scenario and results with the halti that left you dissatisfied if you don't mind my asking?


Zoey was my wife's dog at the time and she was handling her out in front of our home, pretty typical for them. Zoey fought having it on her muzzle and whole thing quickly turned into a "poop" show. It drew the attention of the neighbors I recall and Zoey ended up injured during the melee, most likely from the chain link fence. All in all there is no disappointment, it just simply wasn't going to work with this particular dog. She readily accepted training with a prong and eventually we moved to a martingale, now she rarely wears a collar unless a situation dictates it.


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## elf5 (Mar 31, 2019)

selzer said:


> I am not a fan of prong collars or e-collars. But if it is a question of fighting with the dog, use the correction tool, so that doesn't become necessary. Before putting a correction collar on a 4 month old puppy, you should know what his temperament is like.
> 
> As for a perfectly trained 5.5 month old puppy, well, I like to relax with my pups and enjoy the journey. We do not practice obedience daily, or even weekly. Not really. I mean, I tell them to go in, or to come when we are out together. But that is just communication. Which is exactly what training is. I am looking for an animal that I can totally predict and count on, without any collar on. Because my dogs do not wear collars or harnesses 98% of the time or better. Within my fencing or outside of my fencing I need for them to listen without collars. And they do. I let puppies be puppies and just build a relationship. It's kind of strange but when I finally put leash and collar on the pup to go to the vet, they do really well.


 Just checking in, my dog is still perfectly behaved at 3yrs old, on leash/off leash, in stores, downtown Salem, Ma. during Halloween, visiting clients, etc. How is yours? Just came from a long off leash walk on a public beach, lots of dogs, seagulls, people and it was A LOT OF FUN! He also like on leash walks in Boston when we go for work.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

elf5 said:


> Just checking in, my dog is still perfectly behaved at 3yrs old, on leash/off leash, in stores, downtown Salem, Ma. during Halloween, visiting clients, etc. How is yours? Just came from a long off leash walk on a public beach, lots of dogs, seagulls, people and it was A LOT OF FUN! He also like on leash walks in Boston when we go for work.


Let's see, That post was 3 years ago and in that time, I lost Odie who was 14, and Heidi who was over 13, and Joy who was 11, But I have added Vera, Kaiah, Uzi, and Columbo. All 11 are no problem whatsoever at home or out with me, from Bear who just turned 12, to Columbo who will be 2 in October, all are well-behaved, easy to manage, and never have been subjected to prong collars or e-collars. They just do not need them.


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