# Beautiful Working Line Female lacking drive



## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

Hi to all, I have a 10 month old working line female. She is lovely and sweet but lacks drive for bite work. Great food drive. I have tried all kinds of motivational things, but even pre-teething, she wasn't too interested to bite the rags etc. Is it possible for that to kick in, or is it too late?

Thanks in advance.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

hopefully you are working with a good helper/club that can tap into her drive. She has higher threshold or is she soft? Some dogs just don't have 'it'....others can be maneuvered as they mature, but it takes a good helper that knows how to do it correctly.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

depends on the line , depends on the helper work .
might need maturing .

in the meantime concentrate on other things . Use that food and do motivational tracking .


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

If the dog has no prey drive then you will have to bring her out in defense if she has the nerve for it. A good helper can lay in some good foundation without giving her any actual bites right now. If she is lacking nerve dont bother.

This type of dog will not be very competitive in sport.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

You will need a helper that knows how to read dogs and is able to bring out the fight or correctly channel defense (I never cared for the latter. Far too much stress on the dog if they actually have NO or next to no prey drive). Too many only know how to work dogs with very high prey drive. She may need to mature. She may just not want to play rag games with you. She may not have it. 

Are you working with a club and helper? I have had dogs that were later in showing their drive for protection work and one would never know that they took longer to come into their drives if they saw them as adults.


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## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

Thanks to all for your replies. My problem is that she may tug with me nicely at times. But when we get to training with the club, she's not interested(probably distacted). Her play/tug drives are not strong enough to override the distractions of the other dogs, etc..

If I cannot teach bite work in prey, I will not do bite work at all. Too risky to use defense.


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## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> If the dog has no prey drive then you will have to bring her out in defense if she has the nerve for it. A good helper can lay in some good foundation without giving her any actual bites right now. If she is lacking nerve dont bother.
> 
> This type of dog will not be very competitive in sport.


I agree. At the moment, that's what it looks like to me. "Not competitive in the sport." 

A lovely pet with nice OB and perhaps tracking. Looking at just trying for her BH. Yes she does have great "nerves" excellent temperament and outgoing personality. Very trustworthy around kids, people and with other compatible dogs.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

then let the dog mature . 
agree totally with Lisa .
everyone seems to want to rush their dogs into and through a programme without any regard or seeing it from the dog's perspective.

you say the dog is open and clear and has good nerves -- 
what you have said about your dog is lacking in some high competition dogs.

bond with your dog . go train. lay a good foundation . that way the dog will remain clear 

don't give the dog the tug -- frustrate the dog , deny the dog getting the tug , then put the dog away with pent up frustration . don't make it so easy . get the dog barking for it , let her show you that it wants the tug , or the ball . use the booty drive to ignite aggression .

sorry no capitals -- injured pinky finger which is sore .


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## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

Thanks. I will keep teasing and trying. Why not? She is mine for keeps no matter what..and I only want to do stuff that is fun for both of us. There really isn't a time schedule is there? Sometimes club members can be a little anxious.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

gsdluvr said:


> Thanks. I will keep teasing and trying. Why not? She is mine for keeps no matter what..and I only want to do stuff that is fun for both of us. There really isn't a time schedule is there? Sometimes club members can be a little anxious.


exactly, and don't compare. 
My pup in training, right now is high threshold, isn't a barking monster when it comes to bitework, unless we frustrate the crap out of him(which isn't the reason I want him to bark) I'll wait him out and work on other stuff. 
Karlo was the opposite, a barking biting fighter from the get-go. He didn't need prey drive to engage him, he was all about the fight and still is, even though he is also very high in threshold. I knew I wouldn't get so lucky the next time around.....but know that the pup I'm working now needs a different route for success.


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## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

After reading this board, I decided to do an experiment. I attached her little harness to a bungee and teased her with a tug on a flirt pole. She got the idea and began to pull etc. I did this about 1&1/2 months ago and all she did was turn around and bite the bungee. So she definitely has changed. She is still too distracted in class to do this, but I'm beginning to realize she has changed. It's very interesting to see what might be going on. Thanks to all!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

then what you might want to do with assistance of your training director at the club, is to do line agitation.

dogs spaced safely apart with no possibility of contact . 

tied to a fence line , use the bungee , and have the decoy tease the dogs by passing in front of them , exciting them, maybe focusing in on one to tease with a puppy tug .

the excitement will be infectious and your dog will participate and put some oomph into it . 

don't give a cheap bite though -- only when intense .

dogs tend to get "it" quickly .


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Let her grow up before you start any bitework....like maybe 18 months.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

cliffson1 said:


> Let her grow up before you start any bitework....like maybe 18 months.



This like 200x this.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

gsdluvr, can you PM me a link to her pedigree? I am curious.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

so am I .


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I am curious about the pedigree as well  

Lee


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

and you don't take a young animal and back it into a corner to bring out defense -- which is fear .

what you do want is to give the dog experiences where it has increments of pressure which it can rise to , "win" , and get layers of confidence --- if you are going to do something when it is still young

that way if for some reason the dog isn't a good candidate for sport , you haven't ruined the dog , don't have issues which need to be fixed to have the dog as a stable , social animal.


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## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

Right which is why I said I won't bother with protection if I cannot start in prey. It's supposed to be fun...isn't it?


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## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

duplicate


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## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

Can't put her on a line right now, all she does is bark at other dogs. Doesn't look at the tug


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

gsdluvr said:


> Can't put her on a line right now, all she does is bark at other dogs. Doesn't look at the tug


I'd work on attention separate of anything else for now. Instead of back tying her, maybe you could try getting her to chase the tug more like a retrieve, then slowly add in a little tugging with you. Similar to this, the way he does it at around 25 seconds in. There's more to what he does with tugging etc.. but just to help you show her chasing and catching is fun with an eye towards switching that over later on with the helper.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vp5eXsdnfg


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Let her grow up and then bring her out when she is mentally mature enough to start working. Not all dogs are programmed to play rag/prey games which is how many dogs are expected to start now.


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## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

Steve Strom said:


> I'd work on attention separate of anything else for now. Instead of back tying her, maybe you could try getting her to chase the tug more like a retrieve, then slowly add in a little tugging with you. Similar to this, the way he does it at around 25 seconds in. There's more to what he does with tugging etc.. but just to help you show her chasing and catching is fun with an eye towards switching that over later on with the helper.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vp5eXsdnfg


Steve, 

Happily focus is an easy thing for her. She will beat feet after a ball but not a tug. She will chase a flirt pole for a while, but loses interest. I like to quit before that happens but sometimes it doesn't even start! At the moment, she is still in puppy mode, so activities are short.


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## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

lhczth said:


> Let her grow up and then bring her out when she is mentally mature enough to start working. Not all dogs are programmed to play rag/prey games which is how many dogs are expected to start now.


I never considered that before today, but now I can understand it may be so. As I said, I see a serious/intense side to her that others can't see because they are not around her like I am.

I am very thankful for her sweet, outgoing nature as a pup!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

gsdluvr said:


> I never considered that before today, but now I can understand it may be so. As I said, I see a serious/intense side to her that others can't see because they are not around her like I am.
> 
> I am very thankful for her sweet, outgoing nature as a pup!


that's why a bunch of us would love to see the pedigree !!!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

out of interest can you find out what the sire , dam were like in maturing and find out what the rest of the littermates are like , whether they are going through the same development .


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## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

From what I know, one male is quite high drive, the other not so much at the moment. Don't know about the sire and dam.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

l am also curious about the pedigree


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

All I mean is, you have a 10mo old pup that as long as you're going to play with her at all, I'd do it in a way that can translate over when she is a little older and you try her with a helper again. Its advice I hear given all the time, play with her, let her grow up a little, and lets see then. 

You probably already are, but its always good to have different options.


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## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

*Pedigree*

To Carmen: Check your PMs


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## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

Steve Strom said:


> All I mean is, you have a 10mo old pup that as long as you're going to play with her at all, I'd do it in a way that can translate over when she is a little older and you try her with a helper again. Its advice I hear given all the time, play with her, let her grow up a little, and lets see then.
> 
> You probably already are, but its always good to have different options.


I liked that video. And I will try using the leash or bungee that way.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

There is nowhere near enough information to make any judgements on if the dog will or won’t do bite work. At this point, with a dog showing this much of a lack of prey, there is no reason not to try to put a little pressure on the dog to see if that will bring the bite out of her. A good helper can also transfer the pressure to prey work later on and teach the dog to work in prey. “Maturing” won’t change much in this case because if the thought process is that the dog is “so serious” that it’s not interested in a tug toy, it can then surely handle some pressure at this point in its life. None of us can make that judgement, even with the help of a pedigree. A pedigree doesn’t tell you when the dog will mature and doesn’t tell you anything about the current dog. It does give you a guess at what the dog could be, and with what has been told of the dog already, I’m sure that any pedigree analysis will include “I would’ve thought the dog would be serious and not very prey due to this one dog 10 generations back.”

Truthfully…if the dog has to work in this level of defense, it won’t be much fun. The dog won’t be consistent, and there is a high chance of running the dog each time a new helper is introduced or anything different is worked on. It’s possible, but with a complete lack of prey, the going will be slow, and you have to make sure your helper is quite skilled. There is an expectation that the dog will switch to prey before a bite and if the dog won’t do that, you just won’t get the grips you’re looking for and you’ll have a hard time getting the dog off leash in order to work her safely.

If the dog has ball drive…try a ball on a rope or a string, see if she’ll tug with that. If she won’t, but she’ll chase it, I think that shows a certain insecurity/mistrust when it comes to interacting with humans through a toy/bite pillow/whatever.

I have a dog who was taught to suppress her prey drive due to her living situation. After rehoming, I wanted that prey drive, it took a “defense” type action by a helper to get the dog to open up and that was then slowly channeled into prey and we taught her to use her prey again. She wouldn’t tug with me for a very long time, and it took the smallest of baby steps to get her to play any sort of tug with a human. She was older than your girl at this point and I knew her family history personally so we weren’t worried about doing what had to be done.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Actually this is what I told her (names have been removed of living dogs). 



> I would not have expected the low prey drive looking at the pedigree other than some of the dogs I have seen coming down from ******. I don't know much about how ***** is producing. Hard in the states since we don't see enough of what males produce do to how spread out we are and also how few puppies actually go into working homes.
> 
> There is a lot of aggression in the pedigree so I would suggest waiting her out and bringing her out again around 15 months. Have a helper that knows how to work a dog using its fight and aggression and not just play games. Let her sit again for another few months and then start her at 18 months. I had to do this with Deja who actually showed next to no drive for even toys until she was over a year. For her it is all about the man and the fight with the man though she is into toys now at an older age. We often want the pups to show us everything at an early age and some don't. The more balanced dogs just take longer.


Maturing can change a lot in a dog especially dogs that work out of fight and aggression. We are not talking about waiting until the dog is 3 or 4 or even 2, but 10 months is young and, sorry, many helpers have no clue how to work young dogs that aren't prey monsters. Waiting hurts no one, but the impatience of owners.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I am training two dogs right now in which at 4-6 months they had very little prey, but very good nerve, and some suspicion although social. I told both owners to put them up in bitework until 16 to 24 months when they start maturing mentally and we can start them out in their drive strength. We can then channel into prey and back into defense as we achieve " hard" grips. Both dogs are about 22 and 25 months. Both are biting full and hard as we expand scope of bites( side, defense,prey, frontal, forward, etc). It's possible your dog is not cut out, but I think your best chance for success is wait and then work with someone that understand the type dog you have....Good Luck.


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## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

cliffson1 said:


> I am training two dogs right now in which at 4-6 months they had very little prey, but very good nerve, and some suspicion although social. I told both owners to put them up in bitework until 16 to 24 months when they start maturing mentally and we can start them out in their drive strength. We can then channel into prey and back into defense as we achieve " hard" grips. Both dogs are about 22 and 25 months. Both are biting full and hard as we expand scope of bites( side, defense,prey, frontal, forward, etc). It's possible your dog is not cut out, but I think your best chance for success is wait and then work with someone that understand the type dog you have....Good Luck.


Thanks. I am definitely getting the picture about maturity and the change. Besides, as I said previously, she's mine for keeps no matter what, so there is no schedule or time limit. I'm in this for enjoyment


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Maturing can change a lot in a dog especially dogs that work out of fight and aggression. We are not talking about waiting until the dog is 3 or 4 or even 2, but 10 months is young and, sorry, many helpers have no clue how to work young dogs that aren't prey monsters. Waiting hurts no one, but the impatience of owners.


So true!

We have a few dogs in our club that aren't prey dogs.. One just earned there SchH 1 and the other two are well on there way to getting titles..


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