# Color Question



## freedom4horses (Jun 11, 2012)

My puppy is a black and tan female, however when i was looking at her coat i noticed that the coat coming in as well as the coat she has now is made up of light tan hair that has black tips. Light hair with a black tip occurs in sable patterns. Why does my puppy have sable hairs?!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Showline? If so very normal for the coat to lighten. You should still see some solid color in the hair as well. Many SL's get a 'bitch stripe' that runs down the spine or in the nape area. The coat there will be banded like a sable. Sable pups are very different than B&T's~ you can tell from birth what they are. 
B&T and Bi-colors's are more difficult to distinguish, takes an experienced eye for that.


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## freedom4horses (Jun 11, 2012)

The black-tipped hairs are actually all over her body. I found them on her legs, chest, back, ears, face, shoulders,and tail. I know what a bi*ch stripe looks like but if it was just a bi*ch stripe she wouldnt have the banding going on all over her. Any ideas?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Post some pics~from whelp to now?


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## freedom4horses (Jun 11, 2012)

Here are the photos. One is of her chest and one is of under chin. I could not get pics of the individual hairs as she wont stop squirming. I only have pics of her now.

https://picasaweb.google.com/113555...hkey=Gv1sRgCKSgi4vPl-D5OA#5762257997314847618

https://picasaweb.google.com/113555...hkey=Gv1sRgCKSgi4vPl-D5OA#5762258671427560258


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Looks normal to me, black and tan in the usual areas. As she grows, the tan will spread and the black will recede.

And "bitch" is not a curse word, it's correct terminology. You don't need to use * in the middle of it.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

So you're talking about the hairs in the tan areas are black tipped or the hairs all over, wherever she's dark, are tan with black tips, too?


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## freedom4horses (Jun 11, 2012)

The ones in the tan areas are easiest to see the black tips on. The black tipped hairs are all over, not just on the tan parts.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

freedom4horses said:


> The ones in the tan areas are easiest to see the black tips on. The black tipped hairs are all over, not just on the tan parts.


Do all the hairs in the saddle and other black areas have tan and then black or is it just some? Are most of them solid black?


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## freedom4horses (Jun 11, 2012)

The saddle has some black tipped hairs but a lot of it is still black puppy hair. The spots where her adult hair is coming on her saddle have quite a bit of the black tipped hairs.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

I don't know--I'd say she's still a b/t, but maybe she's going to end up with a lot of tan on her.


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## freedom4horses (Jun 11, 2012)

Its very odd in my opinion. Her papers say she is sable. I think its a technicality because her dad is a sable and sable is considered to be dominant. She was born black and tan and looks black and tan, I just cant seem to find a reason as to why she has sable hairs all over. She definitely isnt showing signs of having a lot of tan as her color has not changed at all in over a month. Her mom did not have a lot of tan and was a normal saddle back. Dad is a super dark sable.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

Could she be a patterned sable?


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## freedom4horses (Jun 11, 2012)

She may be a patterned sable but I am not sure. Her father is:
MAGNUM VOM DRESCHER HAUS - German Shepherd Dog

Her mom is:
Fresca von Rechtschaffenheit - German Shepherd Dog

There is no picture of her mom but as you can see from her pedigree she is a black and tan. Her father is a very dak sable. My female has the same sable color as he does around his eyes.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

Wow, dad is gorgeous!

My Shasta is a patterned sable, but she was always obviously sable. How old is your puppy now? I can look for some pix of Shasta at that age.


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## freedom4horses (Jun 11, 2012)

I love her father as well! She will be 17 weeks on sunday.


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## freedom4horses (Jun 11, 2012)

Here is a pic of her when she was younger before I got her. She is from a litter of 6 females. She was the only one who was not obviously sable at the age of the photos. All the other puppies have the typical sable coloring. 

https://picasaweb.google.com/113555...hkey=Gv1sRgCKSgi4vPl-D5OA#5762297267942405666


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

Wow, yeah, I see why you're saying black and tan. Shasta never looked like that. She looked like a typical sable when she was a pup.


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## freedom4horses (Jun 11, 2012)

She has always looked black and tan. She just has sable hairs everywhere. So far no one can explain it.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

She looks like a normal black and tan to me.


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## freedom4horses (Jun 11, 2012)

I know that she is a black and tan. I am trying to figure out why she has sable hairs (black-tipped) all over her, including her saddle area. Here is a close up picture of her face. If you didnt see her tan paw, you can see that she has her dads sable face and ears. The tan spots that she had over her eyes as a puppy are now gone and have been replaced by sable. Her tan areas used to be that of a typical black and tan however they are now sable in color (filled with black-tipped hairs, not a mixture of different color hairs). She also has the characteristic sable line of hair running down her front legs that black and tan puppies do not have. Once again it is not that her tan will eventually replace the line of black she has on her front legs. The tan is already much farther up her legs yet the line of sable hairs remains on them. 

https://picasaweb.google.com/113555...hkey=Gv1sRgCKSgi4vPl-D5OA#5758065977104621138


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

freedom4horses said:


> I know that she is a black and tan. I am trying to figure out why she has sable hairs (black-tipped) all over her, including her saddle area. Here is a close up picture of her face. If you didnt see her tan paw, you can see that she has her dads sable face and ears. The tan spots that she had over her eyes as a puppy are now gone and have been replaced by sable. Her tan areas used to be that of a typical black and tan however they are now sable in color (filled with black-tipped hairs, not a mixture of different color hairs). She also has the characteristic sable line of hair running down her front legs that black and tan puppies do not have. Once again it is not that her tan will eventually replace the line of black she has on her front legs. The tan is already much farther up her legs yet the line of sable hairs remains on them.
> 
> https://picasaweb.google.com/113555...hkey=Gv1sRgCKSgi4vPl-D5OA#5758065977104621138


Her coat it changing. She will get lighter and eventually probably resemble her black and tan mother. Black and tan dogs like the ones in her mother's pedigree don't just start out looking like that as puppies. They are predominantly black when they are young and they become more and more tan with age.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/development-socialization/167493-b-t-color-changing.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/161071-changes-black-tan-boy.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-puppy/112444-will-puppy-look-like-when-he-grow-up.html


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## freedom4horses (Jun 11, 2012)

I know coat color changes, I had another german shepherd before and got to watch his coat color change as he got older. However he did not have hairs that were two different colors (tan at the root and black at the tip), especially not on his saddle. I understand coat color changes. I also researched the genetics of color pattern. She is registered as a sable, not a black and tan. Her breeder registered her as a sable not me. I also know that two colored hair is characteristic of sable dogs, not black and tan dogs. I understand that on many black and tan dogs the hairs blur together to make them look like they are sable in some areas, however this is not the case. I am looking at individual hairs that are two different colors. She has not changed her color much in the month that I have had her so far, except to get more sable hairs and actually darken in her face and chest area. She is not getting more tan, she is getting more tan based hair with black tips making her darker as opposed to more tan like a normal black and tan dog does. Why does a black and tan dog have sable hairs?


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Sable is a PATTERN. Individual hairs can be banded with 2 or more colors, but one single hair cannot be "sable". Sable is a pattern that covers the whole dog. You're confusing individual banded hairs, with the pattern that all the hairs combined create.

Black and tan dogs have banded hairs too; that is, tan hairs tipped with black or black hairs tipped with tan. The color or banding of each individual hair does not effect the whole pattern. Your dog is black and tan. Your papers are incorrect.

You are not seeing the forest for the trees. It is like being in the middle of a pine forest, and finding an oak amongst the pines. You are thinking, that to make it a pine forest, every single tree must be a pine and you're wondering why there is an oak there.

The fact is, the reason it's called a "pine forest" is that pines are the predominant tree, due to elevation, weather, and other factors. In lower elevations, you will find oak forests where oak is the predominant tree, and pines are few. 

The fact is, you will find some oak trees in a pine forest, but that doesn't make it an oak forest. You will find some pines in an oak forest, but that doesn't make it a pine forest.

This isn't the best example because there is a relatively narrow transition area where pine and oak are mixed almost equally, and in genetics, there is no transition area between black & tan and sable; a dog is either one or the other, it cannot express both at the same time. Although a sable dog can carry a black & tan gene, which is what your pup's father has.

Hope this helps.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Freestep said:


> Sable is a PATTERN. Individual hairs can be banded with 2 or more colors, but one single hair cannot be "sable". Sable is a pattern that covers the whole dog. You're confusing individual banded hairs, with the pattern that all the hairs combined create.
> 
> Black and tan dogs have banded hairs too; that is, tan hairs tipped with black or black hairs tipped with tan. The color or banding of each individual hair does not effect the whole pattern. Your dog is black and tan. Your papers are incorrect.


This .


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## freedom4horses (Jun 11, 2012)

Thank you for clearing that up Freestep. My dogs father does not have any black and tans in his pedigree at least 4 generations back. How can he carry a black and tan gene? I am also wondering why all of the black areas on my dog have a tan undercoat? I thought that the entire saddle had to be made up of only black hairs. This is not the case with my dog. Her saddle is black yes, but it is all tan underneath.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

freedom4horses said:


> Thank you for clearing that up Freestep. My dogs father does not have any black and tans in his pedigree at least 4 generations back. How can he carry a black and tan gene? I am also wondering why all of the black areas on my dog have a tan undercoat? I thought that the entire saddle had to be made up of only black hairs. This is not the case with my dog. Her saddle is black yes, but it is all tan underneath.


If you understand how recessive genes work, yes it is possible to carry a recessive gene for many generations before it expresses itself in the offspring.

Again, you're confusing PATTERN with individual hairs. The black saddle appears black, but the undercoat is usually tan, even on b&t dogs. Each individual hair may have 2 or more colors on it, but that does not determine the pattern of the whole dog.

I know this intimately because I groom a lot of b&t GSDs (including my own). Most of the undercoat that flies out of these dogs is tan or grey. And the color of each hair may be different at the root than it is at the tip.

Your dog will probably become more and more tan as she matures until the only black left is the mask, saddle, and perhaps some black markings on the face. Which will be tan at the root.

Don't let the color of each individual hair confuse you. It's the PATTERN, not the color, that determines a saddle b&t from a bicolor from a black from a sable.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

Freestep, did you look at the photo of the face closeup? Have you seen black and tans with faces marked like that before? (_Not_ arguing, just curious.)


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## freedom4horses (Jun 11, 2012)

She has odd markings thats for sure. If you look at the puppy photo you can see that she had tan spots over her eyes when she was younger. They are mixed with black hair but are still visibly tan. Those spots are now gone and what you see is the face of a sable dog. She very much has her fathers face.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

freedom4horses said:


> She has odd markings thats for sure. If you look at the puppy photo you can see that she had tan spots over her eyes when she was younger. They are mixed with black hair but are still visibly tan. Those spots are now gone and what you see is the face of a sable dog. She very much has her fathers face.


I have seen plenty of puppies whose faces look like that as their mask is developing.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/pictures-pictures-pictures/173607-i-looking-little-kira.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/pictures-pictures-pictures/170261-updated-baby-pic.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/pictures-pictures-pictures/168493-watch-me.html


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Remember, too, that the black and tan pattern is on the agouti allele--the agouti is the foundation for all GSD colors. So, your pup might have something unusual going on that is a bit of an atypical saddle pattern. 

It does sound like she might be a pattern sable ... maybe just a really, really intensively colored one. What does her breeder say about her coloring?

But when I look at the pictures, she just looks like a black and tan pup growing in her adult coat.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

paulag1955 said:


> Freestep, did you look at the photo of the face closeup? Have you seen black and tans with faces marked like that before? (_Not_ arguing, just curious.)


Yes, and yes. It looks like a typical b&t puppy changing coat. The hair will go through a lot of changes as she matures. I can see how someone might look at the face alone and think "sable", but it is really just a mixture of black and tan hairs in transition.

When I get a minute, I will take some photos of my b&t saddleback to show how the hair is banded.


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## freedom4horses (Jun 11, 2012)

Her breeder labeled her as a sable on her papers. It will be interesting to see what she ends up looking like. I gother her 5 weeks ago and she has only gotten darker in her tan spots which sees to go against what every other black and tan puppy goes through when they change color.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

My 10:00 appointment is late, so I grabbed some quick shots.

This first one I took before & after grooming. Luka is definitely a black & tan saddle, no mistaking her for a sable. In fact, neither of her parents are sable so it is a genetic impossibility.










I just took these photos, so excuse the fact that she needs another bath.  This shows a part of her saddle, which appears black, but is actually tan at the root and the undercoat.











This is a single guard hair from her back, near her tail. As you can see, only the tip is black and the rest is tan.











Here is the top of her withers, showing an obvious mixture of black and tan hairs.











Another shot from the middle of her saddle. You can see tan roots.










Hope this helps clear things up for you.


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## freedom4horses (Jun 11, 2012)

Thanks!


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