# Need Advice for GSD breeder in Illinois.



## Lieben (Sep 21, 2015)

Hello all- I'm happy to be a new member to this forum. My family has had GSD's the last 22 years, and it's the only dog we will probably ever own. I don't need to tell any of you how wonderful they are. 

I see a lot of you are veterans here so I wanted to ask if any of you had any experience/dealings with Bill James out of Vom Lebenstraum/ 
vomlebenstraumgermanshepherds.com in Dyer, IN? 

He has the type of GSD I'm interested in, and I have seen the parents of the litter I'm looking to get a pup from as well. I trust they are people of integrity and good values since having met them. I have good feelings about them and am confident I will get a pup from one of their litters, but still wanted to be somewhat cautious here. 

*That being said*, I do have some concerns I wanted to ask some of you about. They seem to have just started breeding over the last 12-18 months (looking at their facebook page anyways). However, I know one of their males has sired a few litters out of much longer established Kennels like Roche's German Shepherds in WI (saw it on their website). I'm sure that doesn't really mean anything. 

I do like how all the pedigrees are listed on their dogs as well as hip/elbow scores (oh believe me, I looked over those pedigrees until I couldn't see anymore), but they don't have any written health guarantees on their dogs? When I looked at the great sticky here "Choosing the right breeder" it talked about those guarantees and how important they are. When I asked about a health guarantee, they said the main reason they don't have one is because they have never really been asked for one? And in most cases, an email sufficed for their buyers. He went on to say, they will stand by their dogs, and that out of 20 litters they are now replacing their 1st pup for a previous customer due to a health reason (I'm thinking this was HD but can't remember). 

At any rate, I love the dogs, and the breeders themselves seem like great people. But it is an investment for me and I want to make the right decisions here. A buddy of mine was like "dude it's a dog"- well it's more then just that to me.... I know I'm making sense here!?  

I just want to make sure I'm asking the right questions. 

Thanks so much for your responses!


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

20 litters in 18 months?????? 6 so far this year??? That is a very very busy commercial operation. All their dogs are imported and they have alot of dogs......this is a business, and you should deal with them on that basis. Warranties, as I am sure their pups are on the high end - the investment in nearly a dozen titled koered imports is not insignificant. Sort of like buying a car.....big inventory to turn over.

Lee


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## Lieben (Sep 21, 2015)

Lee thank you for your reply. I probably should have mentioned that they told me that since they've been breeding, they have had 20 litters. I never asked the question how many years they've been breeding. I'm going to have to correct myself now because they did tell me they have no more than 2 Litters per year. The confusion lied in the fact that they've only had their website and facebook page up over the last 18 months. So taking that into consideration, they've been breeding well over five years now.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

ahhh - they told you they never have more than 2 litters a year????? I counted 3 this spring and 3 now....that is 6 this year...so they can't seem to remember what they put on their website????????

ahhhh - depends on how much you value integrity and honesty.....especially when they are less than truthful about something they publish!

Lee


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## Lieben (Sep 21, 2015)

I see your point Lee. And whether they gave me an actual number of how many litters they have a year, I may still be off- but I know the subject came up when I told them how I was NOT interested in a large commercial breeder. I went to a large commercial breeder here in Illinois (BIG) and I was appalled at what I saw. I think there point was they have many "LESS" litters then that a year, and all the dogs have the litters in their home. The commercial place I went to all had indoor kennels- not a few steps above outdoor if you ask me... 

But like you said it's all about integrity. I'll have to look more into this. It does get complicated at times...


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## Wolfenstein (Feb 26, 2009)

Not going to name names, but I have a feeling I know what IL breeder you're talking about!

If you're looking at West German Showline dogs, maybe look up Alta Tollhaus out of MI, I've loved the dogs of theirs that I've met. You can also contact Huerta Hoff in IL, they breed for show even though lately they've been working with working lines. They're still after the same type, only they're throwing blacks and sables now, too, haha! Both breeders value furthering the breed as a whole, health, temperament, and working ability, and they're very wonderful and keep in contact with their puppy owners (as far as I can tell).


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## osito23 (Feb 17, 2014)

I have no experience with that breeder, but I don't see any red flags from the website. I only see 3 litters from this year posted, not 6? If you like the people and the dogs and think it will be a good fit for your family, then I don't see any reason not to consider them.

There are lots of different opinions on health guarantees. I personally am not concerned with them. I won't buy a puppy if I don't feel comfortable with the breeder and the dogs being bred. Good breeders health test their dogs and know their lines, but things can come up in any litter. I bought my dog without a health guarantee and he's very healthy. JMO


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I don't know the breeder that you speak of.

I live in Illinois and when I get another GSD I will be getting one from Huerta Hof.

Robin is a very nice, knowledgeable, kind person who very much loves her dogs and is very easy to talk to. I met her husband Carlos at a dog show in my town and he too was very nice and very informative. I got to meet some of their wonderful and gorgeous dogs. I also met up with another member from the forum that owns a gorgeous female from Huerta Hof.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

am I reading this right "They seem to have just started breeding over the last 12-18 months "

but had ? " He went on to say, they will stand by their dogs, and that out of 20 litters they are now replacing their 1st pup for a previous customer due to a health reason (I'm thinking this was HD but can't remember). "

20 litters?

even 20 litters over 5 years is a lot ! and it is more than 2 per year . 

the 3 listed are only for this back end of the year - from Aug on to Oct. Who knows what happened from Jan to July, or what plans there are from Nov to Jan.

commercial breeder is an approach and does not mean volume only --- cash cropping, puppy farming 

to this " know their lines" -- there is no lines -- there is not one dog kept back from their own breeding program. 
Not one second or third generations.


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## Lieben (Sep 21, 2015)

osito23 said:


> I have no experience with that breeder, but I don't see any red flags from the website. I only see 3 litters from this year posted, not 6? If you like the people and the dogs and think it will be a good fit for your family, then I don't see any reason not to consider them.
> 
> There are lots of different opinions on health guarantees. I personally am not concerned with them. I won't buy a puppy if I don't feel comfortable with the breeder and the dogs being bred. Good breeders health test their dogs and know their lines, but things can come up in any litter. I bought my dog without a health guarantee and he's very healthy. JMO



This is what I'm thinking- but all this feedback from everyone on here has been invaluable! Thank you. A couple of you Pm'd me but it doesn't let me respond until I post more (thats annoying)! I'm on another forum for a different hobby and we don't do that! LOL 

Giving me a lot to think about here.


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## Lieben (Sep 21, 2015)

Wolfenstein said:


> Not going to name names, but I have a feeling I know what IL breeder you're talking about!
> 
> If you're looking at West German Showline dogs, maybe look up Alta Tollhaus out of MI, I've loved the dogs of theirs that I've met. You can also contact Huerta Hoff in IL, they breed for show even though lately they've been working with working lines. They're still after the same type, only they're throwing blacks and sables now, too, haha! Both breeders value furthering the breed as a whole, health, temperament, and working ability, and they're very wonderful and keep in contact with their puppy owners (as far as I can tell).


Just checked out their website (Alta Tollhaus)... beautiful dogs! Just what I'm looking for. Ugh... too many dogs and tough choices and not enough space to keep them all!


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## Lieben (Sep 21, 2015)

carmspack said:


> am I reading this right "They seem to have just started breeding over the last 12-18 months "
> 
> but had ? " He went on to say, they will stand by their dogs, and that out of 20 litters they are now replacing their 1st pup for a previous customer due to a health reason (I'm thinking this was HD but can't remember). "
> 
> ...


All great points! I saw a kennel likes this in IL- wow was it a put off to me. Crazy thing was there was people there praising what they saw to the high heavens! SMH... 

Again, I can't quote how many years the place I'm considering has been breeding. I didn't ask how many years in total. I just see when their website went live, and Facebook page started. I have a selective memory when I visit a breeder and am surrounded by pups- lol. Next time it's questions first then bring out the pups. Thank you for your reply.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Be careful with online reviews, especially from people that have ZERO first hand experience with the breeder or dogs they're breeding. Sad really, this forum doesn't allow negative reviews, yet will allow positive reviews or recommendations without any real basis for making that recommendation. Not the first time I'm seeing recommendations on this forum that stretch the truth. The majority of the "red flags" you'll see or that people will call breeders out for are in fact many times based on limited knowledge of the breed, what is involved in breeding dogs, or the breeder they are talking about. It is unfortunate but the more information the breeder puts out on the internet, the more it seems they get bashed for something. Those that are able to keep things off the internet, keep things to word of mouth, the more their reputation stays intact and seems to even be embellished many times.

Where are you located in Illinois? You've started a search for a puppy at a pretty good time. Our region's IPO regional championship is happening this weekend in Spring Green, WI and in about a month our regional seiger show will be happening in Medinah, IL. If you can make it to either one of those events you should get a chance to not just speak to a variety of breeders, but also see their dogs in action.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

The boards and other sources give people some basic information especially for the novice person, but ultimately it is up to the puppy buyer to do their research. Sort of what we used to have to do before there was such a thing called the internet. We talked to the breeders, we visited with the breeders, we maybe talked to other people with their puppies.... We did research.


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## Lieben (Sep 21, 2015)

lhczth said:


> The boards and other sources give people some basic information especially for the novice person, but ultimately it is up to the puppy buyer to do their research. Sort of what we used to have to do before there was such a thing called the internet. We talked to the breeders, we visited with the breeders, we maybe talked to other people with their puppies.... We did research.


As am I... but thank you! 

25 years ago, there wasn't any "Forums" as you stated... so this is yet another resource at our disposal. 25 years ago, I also wasn't spending what I am on a dog today, and could have cared less about "pedigrees". But that was then, and this is now.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Lieben said:


> lhczth said:
> 
> 
> > The boards and other sources give people some basic information especially for the novice person, but ultimately it is up to the puppy buyer to do their research. Sort of what we used to have to do before there was such a thing called the internet. We talked to the breeders, we visited with the breeders, we maybe talked to other people with their puppies.... We did research.
> ...


Id definitely check out the regional trials in your area.


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## Lieben (Sep 21, 2015)

martemchik said:


> Be careful with online reviews, especially from people that have ZERO first hand experience with the breeder or dogs they're breeding. Sad really, this forum doesn't allow negative reviews, yet will allow positive reviews or recommendations without any real basis for making that recommendation. Not the first time I'm seeing recommendations on this forum that stretch the truth. The majority of the "red flags" you'll see or that people will call breeders out for are in fact many times based on limited knowledge of the breed, what is involved in breeding dogs, or the breeder they are talking about. It is unfortunate but the more information the breeder puts out on the internet, the more it seems they get bashed for something. Those that are able to keep things off the internet, keep things to word of mouth, the more their reputation stays intact and seems to even be embellished many times.
> 
> Where are you located in Illinois? You've started a search for a puppy at a pretty good time. Our region's IPO regional championship is happening this weekend in Spring Green, WI and in about a month our regional seiger show will be happening in Medinah, IL. If you can make it to either one of those events you should get a chance to not just speak to a variety of breeders, but also see their dogs in action.


Martem, thanks for the great info!! I'm in Chicago and I did receive your PM. Thanks for that as well. I will try and check out that show for sure! Not just to talk to breeders but I genuinely enjoy watching them. I see your in Wisconsin. I had also been considering a dog out of Roche's German Shepherds in Troy, WI (they also have the pedigree/look I'm going for). For me, importing is not an option as I will never buy a pup without observing and touching the parents first hand. The parents of the most recent pup I met had amazing temperments (was hard to believe they were IPO3) and of course temperament is paramount.

I suppose my BIGGEST reason for starting this thread, was not just to ask advice on a breeder- but after finding one I liked (pup, parents, and pedigree included) if people would still move forward without all the fancy "health guarantees" that I do see a lot of breeders having. 

Perhaps one of the biggest commercial operations I've seen here in IL, has those same "guarantees" - some the most expensive pups, but what I observed when I was there just looked horrid. A limping 8 week old puppy, diahrrea in almost every dog, and at least 15 litters on the ground! Not to mention some bad reviews on ripoffreport.com- ect. I suppose thats bound to happen with big operations though. 

I'm not going to say which breeder out in the open, because I'm not here to "breeder bash" I realize sometimes selecting a breeder can be as subjective as comedy. But I do like the fact some breeders just go that extra mile with the health of their dogs and guaranteeing that helath. If I choose to go with this breeder- I'll just have to "take his word" it seems.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I notice you refer to guarantees a few times. Those written health guarantees are only as good as the breeder and the dogs behind them. I know of two people personally that had dogs with HD and when they let the breeders know the response was - "Sorry to hear that". The jist of it was, "go ahead and sue me". One of the breeders is well known here too.

Also you usually are required to return the pup, which is not an easy thing to do.

I'm not saying guarantees are bad but the price of a "guaranteed" pup may not be worth it, take them with a grain of salt.


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## Lieben (Sep 21, 2015)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I notice you refer to guarantees a few times. Those written health guarantees are only as good as the breeder and the dogs behind them. I know of two people personally that had dogs with HD and when they let the breeders know the response was - "Sorry to hear that". The jist of it was, "go ahead and sue me". One of the breeders is well known here too.
> 
> Also you usually are required to return the pup, which is not an easy thing to do.
> 
> I'm not saying guarantees are bad but the price of a "guaranteed" pup may not be worth it, take them with a grain of salt.


Yes. You are so right Gwen. For me, I suppose it felt like a security blanket. But you want the truth? I wouldn't take a replacement dog- my family wouldn't have the room for two dogs, and nor would I ever "return a dog" who does that?! Especially with a Pet- yikes. I suppose that's why I want a breeder "close by" within 2 hours, so I can make there life a living **** (legally) if they sold me an unhealthy dog and then told me "Sorry to hear that" when I confronted them. I can be a person's worst nightmare when it comes to social media. And can and will use the internet as a weapon to destroy a person's business. We've all seen the power of the internet and media these days- and almost every breeder I've seen has a facebook/twitter page. Not to mention Yelp, ect ect. 

Seriously though, I'm not expecting any of that to happen. Our last dog had serious HD at a year of being tested- it was hearbreaking but she still lived to be 11.5. We had her in swimming, Chiro, acupuncture you name it! All in all- 10k was invested into our last dog. I'm just trying to minimize the risk as much as possible here that's all. 

You guys have thrown me some awesome PM's on breeders though. I should be able to PM soon and I'm going to shoot Lee a message on your recommendation. 

Thank you so much!


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## Lieben (Sep 21, 2015)

You guys have thrown me some awesome PM's on breeders though and various advice. I will reply as soon as I'm able to.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

In Germany most breeders don't give guarantees, for dogs of as good if not better quality. They also tend to cost less.

Even with the best breeder HD happens.....

Speaking of HD here is another tool breeders under the SV system use to help weed out HD in their lines, the ZW score. This is a breeder in Cali. With a good write up on it. Hope this helps! 

Home of West Coast German Shepherd Dogs - HD Zuchtwert Information


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## Lieben (Sep 21, 2015)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> In Germany most breeders don't give guarantees, for dogs of as good if not better quality. They also tend to cost less.
> 
> Even with the best breeder HD happens.....
> 
> ...


Wonderful article! Thanks for sharing. I was already familiar with the ZW scores but this helped put it all into perspective for me. The puppy is actually for my folks- who are getting up there in age, but still have at least one more dog left in them...  So I want a dog thats not turned "on" all the time- but somewhere in-between. So many things to consider when we go looking for our new member of the family huh?! :laugh:


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

You got some great recommendations with Huerta Hof and Alta Tollhaus. We have seen dogs from both breeding programs. Very open, social and good drive dogs. Very all around dogs, as well.

Both breeders are very active in multiple venues. And supportive.


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