# Pet shop



## mazza

I have just found out that there are "pet shops" in America who are "ALLOWED" to sell puppies/dogs can any-one tell me why this is as over here in England all pet shops are not allowed to do so, it was banned many,many years ago for obvious reasons


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## Dawn

We have had this problem for a long long time... I wish they would outlaw it in the states.
Many of petstores will sell poorly bred dogs from puppymills.
I have seen many come into the shelter where I work. 
Many owners have told me that the puppies will become ill when they get them home. They are so poorly bred purebred dogs that look like mutts sometimes because they come from puppymills. I had a woman come into one time with a yorkie. She bought it as a tiny puppy was told it would stay very small. It was almost 15 pounds.
These stores pull on strings of peoples hearts when they walk into the stores. 
Many of stores in my area have been sited for poor conditions but nothing more than fines are imposed.
It is very sad.


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## chocolat

they are only obvious reasons to those who disagree with the practice
despite what the extremist want you to believe not all puppies in pet stores come from "puppy mills" quite a few come from some pretty nice professional breeding kennels

One should be allowed to get their dog in whatever way they want..ie breeder, pet store or rescue or shelter or BYb or whatever other terms we want to use.
No one tells you, you can only buy a car from a used car dealer or you can only buy your hamburger from Outback and not mcDonalds or you can only adopt children from Europe and not the US.
Long as they are kept clean, fed watered and medical care as required and within what ever standards of care are required..whether as a buyer or a seller, no one should tell you where to get your pet from.
Your puppy farms in your country simply sell direct now and quite a few of them sell to people/breeder or what some call puppy mills here in the US. Your breeders get titles on your dogs and then sell them to our breeders for big money.


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## Relayer

I'm surprised that they haven't invented vending machines for puppies and kittens. Got a whim? Throw a few rolls of quarters in and walk off with a pet!! Uggggh.


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## ZAYDA

The only problem with PET STORES is they can and have received pups from puppy mills which makes them a bad choice to select a puppy. You have no idea where the puppy came from the only thing you see is an adorable puppy who may not grow into an adorable adult due to inbreeding or many other health issues caused from crappy breeding. 
At least when you are willing to pay for a pure bread puppy or any puppy for that matter you have the opportunity to see the breeders and the puppies @ the premises as to where they were raised for several weeks. Then you can decide if you like what you see .
Not all puppies @ pet stores are from puppy mills I agree but you are taking a chance that perhaps the one you are looking was. You make the call.


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## Dawn

You are correct people should be allowed to buy puppies wherever they want. In my location we have 5 stores that have been sited..more than once. It gets to me after a while I guess. Puppies just sitting on bars with no blankets, no water etc etc.
Not all stores do get puppies from puppy mills, I do apoligize if I gave that impression. 
We have seen so many sick dogs from puppy stores in our area...and recently we rescued an entire truck load of puppy mill dogs, from down south. Totally unsocialized...but so sweet, Most of them have been adopted.
I see both sides to this story...so many people who love their animals and want to do what is best for them whether it be just family owned dogs, breeding or showing.
But there is that dark side...people who just want to make money and don't care about the dogs.
I am sorry if I offended anyone..it was not my attention


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## chocolat

I dont know about the rules in your area, but often commercial kennels and pet stores arent allowed to use materials like blankets. Everything is suppose to be able to santize and impervious to moisture.. As far as no water that doesnt sound right..some of those cages have small auto water lixit tubes that stick thru..maybe you cant see it in their cages?
If not, no water especially on puppies is not a good way to keep puppies healthy. They will be hurting their bottom line by lack of care.

you are right poor care leads to problems and a bad image all the way around.
However, if you visit many dog shelters you will find they comply even less to humane care standards than pet stores and many commercial kennels do

BTW I am not offended and if my typing seemed that way I apologize. My views are probably a little different than some. I just hate the thought we condem one thing like pet stores or commercial breeders and we may find we no longer have a choice as to where our next pet comes from.


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## Lucy Dog

I guess the only explanation is your country is smarter than ours. I have no idea how we allow puppy mills and pet stores to carry on the way they do. It's like concentration camps for puppies and dogs.


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## Dawn

I have worked in a shelter for over 8 1/2 years and I have also visited many shelters. My shelter is one of the few that go far and beyond when it comes to the care of the animals. 
I have also visited other shelters that made me cry as I left.

Here is the link to our shelter.
Monmouth County SPCA

dawn


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## mazza

Are you for real Chocolate!!! Firstly the laws in MY COUNTRY as you put it sate that all breeders must have their dogs and ALL PUPS registered with the K.C. so please tell me what evidence you have to support your claim secondly selling dogs/PUPS in pet shops over here was banned for a GOOD reason it is wrong and it is in humane, they are what I call OBVIOUS REASONS!!!


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## chocolat

Dawn said:


> I have worked in a shelter for over 8 1/2 years and I have also visited many shelters. My shelter is one of the few that go far and beyond when it comes to the care of the animals.
> I have also visited other shelters that made me cry as I left.
> 
> Here is the link to our shelter.
> Monmouth County SPCA
> 
> dawn


 
24+years ago I lived in Monmouth county, my dog growing up came from that shelter, as did another dog I got when I left home. I remember it when it was the birck building. I watched your video...shelters must be a great business to be in..takes a lot of money to build and keep that facility. This is why I stand by my statement in another thread that shelters and rescues sell dogs just as much as any breeder.


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## Jax08

chocolat said:


> 24+years ago I lived in Monmouth county, my dog growing up came from that shelter, as did another dog I got when I left home. I remember it when it was the birck building. I watched your video...shelters must be a great business to be in..takes a lot of money to build and keep that facility. This is why I stand by my statement in another thread that shelters and rescues sell dogs just as much as any breeder.


_*This thinking is*_ so full of crap



_*Edited by Admin, no personal attacks please. _


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## Jax08

mazza said:


> I have just found out that there are "pet shops" in America who are "ALLOWED" to sell puppies/dogs can any-one tell me why this is as over here in England all pet shops are not allowed to do so, it was banned many,many years ago for obvious reasons


Capitalism...plain and simple. And we Americans don't like to be told what we can and can't do.

Shelters do not make money off of these animals. My local shelter calls me when they have a shepherd. I pay a $30 refundable spay/neuter deposit and send them to rescue. Rescue pays to have them neutered, vetted, fed and cared for. Most rescue fees are around $200-$300. No way does anyone make any money off of this. 

Reputable breeders do not make a fortune either by the time they raise, vet, train, show.

Hobby breeders do not make money by the time they raise and vet their animals, whether they show them or not.

Both of these types of breeders normally have a contract guaranteeing the health, hips and elbows. Puppy may be returnable if something is wrong. They also will have a contract stating if for whatever reason the owner needs to relinquish the dog, they have first right of refusal.

BYB make money because they don't care about vetting their animals or caring for them. They sell them out the door or to brokers who sell them to the pet shops. 

Some of our pet shops no longer buy pets from brokers but only for local people...same philosophy for the BYB though.


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## Dawn

First of all it did take alot of money to re do that shelter and it needed very much!
We had to finance millions to do this...and every month it hard to meet that mortage. No money being made here.. just staying afloat!
This shelter was literally designed with the comfort and well being of the animals. I have worked there for 8 1/2 years and volunteered before that. I know of that old brick building you speak of, I worked in it.
Instead of dogs jumping and spinning in thier cages it is quiet when you walk through the dogward. Illness has dropped dramtically throughout the entire shelter because of the new ventilation sysytem.
This building is what shelters should be in the future. The board memebers that worked so hard to make this happen had one thing in mind. The animals and their comfort.
And by the way the fee that is charged to adopted an animal includes, rabies, distemper, bordetella, microchip and spay or neuter and any medical care that animal needed prior to adoption. We have 4 vets on staff now that will see and treat any animal in our facility that needs treatment for illness etc.
We also have animals that stay there for a year or more...being vaccinated, treated for any illness, cared for etc.
we do not make any money on this deal believe me.
I am truly proud to be a employee of the monmouth county spca.


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## mazza

_*Edited by Admin, no personal attacks please._


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## chocolat

Jax08 said:


> _*This thinking is*_ so full of crap


 

what is the cost to adopt from your Monmouth county shelter?

exactly how did they pay for a building like that?

trust me I think it is a fantastic building and light years ahead of their old building
but you must admit it takes money to have a building like that..money to have 4 vets on staff and the medications etc.. needed to do all that.

many dog breeders get accused of selling puppies to make a profit, but it isnt many dog breeders that can have a facility like that. They simply dont make enough "profit" 

My little local shelter has 6 kennel runs. they were hand made by folks in our city and are maintained by our police chief..he feeds ,waters and cleans the dogs there. that is a shelter who is not making money and not benefiting from so many campaigns these days against breeders and for "adoption"

million dollar facilities like the one you showed are housing animals better than many of our seniors who live on govt/welfare etc at senior homes. It just seems so warped to me, and I am the one who is full of it


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## chocolat

BTW I do feel for shelters like yours as so many people send money to H$U$ thinking they are doing a good deed helping animals, when they are only funding a political campaign. People like you actually work in the trenches helping animals, deserve the donations but dont get them

this I thought was a good video made about that subject


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## Dawn

The four vets I was speaking of do all our spay and neuters. I am the manager at the spay and neuter clinic and when I became manager I made it a requirement for all vets when they were done with surgery to go to the shelter to see the techs and see if any animals needed treatment. No extra money going out there. 
I also made a vaccine clinic for every friday that includes rabies, distemper, bordetella, lyme, microchipping and heartworm tests and combo feline tests. Years ago we only had a rabies clinic once a month. So many people come to me and tell me thank you as they could never afford to go to the vets for all that.
Sometimes things change for the better.
The old building was falling down and mess...do you replace it with something simular or try to do better. The board members that helped make all this happen probably were volunteering and cleaning cages when you were there.
We are non for profit and depend on donations. We are barely making it some months.. Hangin on by our fingertips.
But we are trying to make things better for the animals.


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## Jax08

chocolat said:


> what is the cost to adopt from your Monmouth county shelter?


Since you addressed me....Monmouth is not my local shelter. You aren't even in the right state regarding my shelter. _*This thinking is*_ full of crap on the idea that shelters and rescues are making money off these animals. You might want to go work in a shelter or work with a rescue before making a dumb statement like that.


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## DCluver33

Relayer said:


> I'm surprised that they haven't invented vending machines for puppies and kittens. Got a whim? Throw a few rolls of quarters in and walk off with a pet!! Uggggh.


don't give them any ideas


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## chocolat

*adoption fees*

Animal Shelter, Inc.

What to expect when adopting a dog or cat at Northeast Animal Shelter, Salem, MA


sorry was gonna find some more links, but dinner is ready
at $400 pop adoption fees on dogs that are imported from southern shelters for free with many people donating their services to get them from there to the north adds up to some nice yearly profit

I couldnt find the Nj humane society group. Now there is a group that had hefty adoption fees years ago I can only guess what they are now


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## Dawn

All I know that a large amount of the dogs we get are not neutered, or spay, bad teeth and require dentals etc..I could go on and on
And our adoption fees are determined by the type of animal you adopt. We were running by one get one free last weekend with the kitties. and they stilled needed all their vaccines, spay or neutered, feline combo tested and microchipped.
Now we are noticing with our shelters that we are seeing a rise in heartworm positive dogs that are coming from the south. So we test them do not adopt but foster them and do all heartworm treatments in house. We take care of it all before the dog is adopted.
I can go on and on and on...


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## Jax08

chocolat said:


> sorry was gonna find some more links, but dinner is ready
> at $400 pop adoption fees on dogs that are imported from southern shelters for free with many people donating their services to get them from there to the north adds up to some nice yearly profit


:rofl: What planet do you live on that $400 covers the cost of pulling, vetting and fostering a dog? That is an incredibly ignorant and ridiculous statement.

It's $50 just to walk thru the door to have an exam. Then shots because who knows what vaccinations a stray has or hasn't had.

Can anyone say Heartworm????? That chews up the $400 fee right there plus some. I know, talking to the intake coord for one northern rescue, that they have never had the luck to pull a HW- southern dog. They are pulling dogs in their own area with heartworm.

Lyme's disease and other tick related illnesses? You betcha...cuz the dogs that end up in shelters weren't exactly getting stellar care to begin with. I pulled one from my shelter last fall, covered in ticks.

Can anyone say still INTACT???? Even a low cost spay/neuter clinic will cost $100 to $150.

How about Parvo? How many rescues have spent big bucks trying to save a dog, or a whole litter, from parvo only to lose every single one of them including the mother? I know of one that happened to quite recently right here on this board.

Even if they do come out ahead on one dog they lose on the next. There are rescues that have spent thousands on ONE SINGLE DOG, to save it's life. There are rescues who have pulled sick dogs and taken them to the vet to have them humanely put to sleep instead of killed in gas chamber or by heartstick. They don't make a single dime on those dogs.

Most rescues keep the dogs in foster care for a minimum of 1 month. That's $40-$50 for food every month. I had a doberman that I was fostering for 7 months. That chews up adoption fee right there.

If you want to continue, you should take those feet out of your mouth first because you aren't even close to hitting reality. We all can pull vet bills to back up what we're saying. What is your personal experience? Other than being ticked off because Monmouth has a new building?

oh...and just an FYI...a 501c organization is required to post all financial records. It's pretty easy to see exactly how much of a yearly profit they are making.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I will say that there ARE groups and individuals who are making money off the backs of these animals under the guise of being rescues or no-kill shelters, when they actually are no more than brokers, and shame on them for doing that. Just like any person who is taking advantage of pets and people in any way to make a quick buck - it's shameful. 

A legitimate rescue is like Jax describes. 

They check carefully their adopters and work to make good dog-family matches. That is a huge part of their mission - no coming in and picking out a dog because you like its looks. You get screened and home checked and the best match is available. Parallels to breeders who do similar. Same with support after. 

They take care of the dogs like they are their own. 

The money that comes out ahead, if there is any, goes right back into the dogs.


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## selzer

Since this was about Pet shops, I will address that first. 

In my opinion, no reputable breeder passes their puppies off to be sold by a minimum wage clerk in a pet store. Which means, pet stores are getting puppies from people who do not care about the puppies. It is plain and simple. I do think it should be banned. People should not think they can walk into the corner store and pick up a puppy and walk out.

There are no reputable stores selling puppies, unless a breeder has a little shop for convenience. But even then, she would not keep the puppies in cages in the store. Not acceptable at all.

As for whether rescues and pounds make money on puppies and dogs, I think some make plenty. 

The reputable ones, are probably not, and all they do make is probably immediately sunk into the dogs or the foster program. 

But think about it, if you do not have to title and trial your dogs, you do not have to pay a stud fee, you do not have to do health screenings, and you do not have to offer warrantees, yes you can cover your costs on selling pups even if you are charging 1-4 hundred dollars. 

Lots of vets do a lot of pro bono work for rescues. Others, give significant disounts. Others have felt burned and give no discounts to rescues but will spay/neuter for free for the local pound. So to walk in the door with your dog might be $50, but for a rescue with a good working relationship with their vet, it may be $40 or $25. The vet may be giving them everything at cost, or a 10-20% discount.

Whatever, there are rescues, that do serious evaluating before taking a dog on. Dogs that look in bad shape or have poor temperament are left to be euthd by the pound. I do not know for sure, but my guess is that the rescues out to make money, take the dog to the vet and if there is something seriously expensive, they are just having the dog euthanized. And sometimes, that IS the best thing to do. But still, not all rescues are taking everything and doing all in their power.

My guess is that there are rescues out there using their not for profit status to the hilt, and the only reason they are not making a profit is because they are providing salaries, etc. They are taking the best dogs they can find, often with adopters in mind. If not, they are taking adoptable dogs, farming them out to people who foster for free/volunteers, then they keep the dog for the least amount of time, caring for only the minor veterinary issues, and selling them for as much as they possibly can. 

And all along the way taking in money from individual donors, and any free supplies and services that generous people will provide.

It really does not matter what these people call themselves, there are people that will charge as much as possible for dogs they put as little as possible in to. They can be rescues or pounds or breeders.


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## chocolat

selzer said:


> Whatever, there are rescues, that do serious evaluating before taking a dog on. Dogs that look in bad shape or have poor temperament are left to be euthd by the pound. I do not know for sure, but my guess is that the rescues out to make money, take the dog to the vet and if there is something seriously expensive, they are just having the dog euthanized. And sometimes, that IS the best thing to do. But still, not all rescues are taking everything and doing all in their power.
> 
> My guess is that there are rescues out there using their not for profit status to the hilt, and the only reason they are not making a profit is because they are providing salaries, etc. They are taking the best dogs they can find, often with adopters in mind. If not, they are taking adoptable dogs, farming them out to people who foster for free/volunteers, then they keep the dog for the least amount of time, caring for only the minor veterinary issues, and selling them for as much as they possibly can.
> 
> And all along the way taking in money from individual donors, and any free supplies and services that generous people will provide.
> 
> It really does not matter what these people call themselves, there are people that will charge as much as possible for dogs they put as little as possible in to. They can be rescues or pounds or breeders.


 
In the rescue world, we call those who go thru pounds picking the highly adoptables 'cherry picking'
while I fully understand "why" they do it, it can also be frustrating. I know a cavalier rescue that will ONLY take cavs..purebred cavs. I know of a cocker cavalier cross(known parentage) and they wouldnt take him. but they were all over the purebred female.. a very highly adoptable category of dog. There are many like that out there.

As far as selling to or thru pet stores, they sell that way or they sell direct, it doesnt matter. It is up to the buyer to decide what breed they want and where they want to get it. Some just want a dog to resemble the breed they like..no show quality, dont care about titles or anything else. of basic good health and personality. very hard for those who show and compete to understand that is all the average pet owner wants.
some pet store staff do stink at being able to tell anything about the breeds they have, but some staff are very good at pointing a person to a breed/puppy that will fit their needs.

So, the OP is happy they banned puppy sales in their stores and thrilled they all must be KC registered, but she is still not understanding, the dogs are still raised and sold, people just find a different way to get the job done.
I live in fear they will increase more and more regulations here in the states on commercial breeders or breeders in general. Puppies are already being smuggled up from mexico..bet they have great kennel inspections there. Better to keep it here, avoid the whole importing and smuggling thing and be able to have at least some oversight on how /where dogs are raised.


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## Ayriel

I purchased my 8week old GSD off of www.craigslist.com from some personal breeder for $300 2 days ago. I just saw a picture of her, called the number, met up with the person at there house, gave them $300 cash and walked away with a new puppy. My fiancee rescued a 10month old GSD from the Animal Shelter for $115 on the same day. We both took our dogs to the vet immediatly after purchase. My puppy was very healthy and just got updated on her vacines today but his 10month old was under feed, needed a bath badly, and needed to be combed and brushed. This Animal Shelter doesn't take very care of the animals at all. Its so sad, I wish I could adopt them all but in the state of Nevada your only allowed 3 animals.


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## selzer

whether a puppy is going to a show home or a pet home, a decent breeder wants to get a feeling for who is getting him. 

Letting some high school student sell the dog to the first person with a credit card that is not max'd out is completely unacceptable. And that is what is happening. 

It does not matter what the buyer wants. Good breeders will not sell this way, pet or show or working. 

I too am afraid of regulations hear, because they will be designed by people that have little to no knowledge of what puppies need, and driven into being by people who are the most extreme. But I would support a bill that limited the sale of dogs in pet stores to animals from pounds. 

My sister takes her children to a pet store regularly because they sell puppies and the kids like to pet and play with the puppies. It is good for the kids and the puppies but it makes me cringe. She is not doing it in support of the store, or trying to teach her kids that pet stores are ok, it is more that puppies in pet stores are a norm.

My sister has no pets, so she is not going in to buy anything. 

I cannot tell her not to do this, because, where else can she find puppies for her children to do this with? I cannot direct her anywhere. With each litter, she brings the babies out, but I am 1.5 hours away from her each way. She is not doing it all the time. 

And my single litter per year is simply not good enough for the kids to see puppies regularly. 

And a favorite song growing up was, "How much is that Doggy in the Window?" How politically incorrect is that? Almost as bad as "Where or where has my little dog gone?" The girls know both of these songs. One talks about doggy shopping at pet stores the other about cropping and docking ears and tails.


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## Relayer

selzer said:


> whether a puppy is going to a show home or a pet home, a decent breeder wants to get a feeling for who is getting him.
> 
> Letting some high school student sell the dog to the first person with a credit card that is not max'd out is completely unacceptable. And that is what is happening.
> 
> It does not matter what the buyer wants. Good breeders will not sell this way, pet or show or working.
> 
> I too am afraid of regulations hear, because they will be designed by people that have little to no knowledge of what puppies need, and driven into being by people who are the most extreme. But I would support a bill that limited the sale of dogs in pet stores to animals from pounds.
> 
> My sister takes her children to a pet store regularly because they sell puppies and the kids like to pet and play with the puppies. It is good for the kids and the puppies but it makes me cringe. She is not doing it in support of the store, or trying to teach her kids that pet stores are ok, it is more that puppies in pet stores are a norm.
> 
> My sister has no pets, so she is not going in to buy anything.
> 
> I cannot tell her not to do this, because, where else can she find puppies for her children to do this with? I cannot direct her anywhere. With each litter, she brings the babies out, but I am 1.5 hours away from her each way. She is not doing it all the time.
> 
> And my single litter per year is simply not good enough for the kids to see puppies regularly.
> 
> And a favorite song growing up was, "How much is that Doggy in the Window?" How politically incorrect is that? Almost as bad as "Where or where has my little dog gone?" The girls know both of these songs. One talks about doggy shopping at pet stores the other about cropping and docking ears and tails.


I'm not understanding why you have such a passionate dislike for what your sister seems comfortable with. At least she let;s the kids play with and see dogs. You can't expect that everyone sees things the same way you (we) do, ya know?. Be happy that the nieces/nephews will likely be huge dog lovers.


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## selzer

I am not telling her not to do this. 

But it does make me cringe, because her children are learning that the place to get a puppy is a pet store. Pet stores are where puppies are. It is normal to get a puppy from a pet store. 

I would not call it a "passionate dislike for what my sister seems comfortable with." I am mainly pointing out that culturally, people who are not dog people think where to get puppies is a pet store.

Reputable breeders would not dream of putting puppies in such a situation. 

So the puppies in pet stores are from the worst possible breeders, puppy mills. 

How do we start to fight the problem of puppy mills if we are teaching our children that you go to a pet store to buy a puppy?

That is why I cringe.


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## DJEtzel

chocolat said:


> In the rescue world, we call those who go thru pounds picking the highly adoptables 'cherry picking'
> while I fully understand "why" they do it, it can also be frustrating. I know a cavalier rescue that will ONLY take cavs..purebred cavs. I know of a cocker cavalier cross(known parentage) and they wouldnt take him. but they were all over the purebred female.. a very highly adoptable category of dog. There are many like that out there.
> 
> As far as selling to or thru pet stores, they sell that way or they sell direct, it doesnt matter. It is up to the buyer to decide what breed they want and where they want to get it. Some just want a dog to resemble the breed they like..no show quality, dont care about titles or anything else. of basic good health and personality. very hard for those who show and compete to understand that is all the average pet owner wants.
> some pet store staff do stink at being able to tell anything about the breeds they have, but some staff are very good at pointing a person to a breed/puppy that will fit their needs.
> 
> So, the OP is happy they banned puppy sales in their stores and thrilled they all must be KC registered, but she is still not understanding, the dogs are still raised and sold, people just find a different way to get the job done.
> I live in fear they will increase more and more regulations here in the states on commercial breeders or breeders in general. Puppies are already being smuggled up from mexico..bet they have great kennel inspections there. Better to keep it here, avoid the whole importing and smuggling thing and be able to have at least some oversight on how /where dogs are raised.


The point isn't what venue they're being sold through, it's where they're coming from. Petstores 98% of the time have puppies coming from puppy mills, which are in poor health and end up dead or in a shelter. Breeders ensure their dogs don't breed (usually), and won't end up in a shelter, and they're bred for good health AND temperment. 

I think it's very unreasonable that you think shelters are making a profit off of their adoptions. MOST aren't, anyway. I know mine isn't. I work at a humane society and we are completely dependent on community donations, which we're lucky to get a lot of in a bad area of the city/state. We charge a 75$ adoption fee for dogs, and $60 for two cats. Pretty cheap, right? So how can we be making money off of that when we're paying $100 for every other dog to be treated for heartworm, paying $50-150 for spay/nueters on 80% of our dogs, have to buy medicines, food, bleach, etc? All of our cats get daily immune system powder, and all kittens get injections of stuff that costs $300 a bottle. At cost. I don't think you realize how much shelters have to spend and buy for animals. We have 20-30 dogs there at any given time, and 90-150 cats. We have to have capstars for every animal that comes in at $30 a box, we have to have canned cat food for them every day, dog food (dry and canned), leashes, collars, and bleach. Do you have any idea how much bleach costs? We bleach the entire facility daily, going through about 6-10 bottles a day. You can't tell me we're making money off of this.

eta; just thought of more- 

We're also spending money on about 3 cases of vaccines a month, just for dogs. There are what, 25 or 50 in a case? and syringes aren't cheap either. We are lucky to get many scrips by donation, but wormer isn't cheap either, nor is heartguard, which we have to buy. Every day we're going through 5-10 vaccines, and 2-4 HW or FelV tests.


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## mazza

*No way*



chocolat said:


> they are only obvious reasons to those who disagree with the practice
> despite what the extremist want you to believe not all puppies in pet stores come from "puppy mills" quite a few come from some pretty nice professional breeding kennels
> 
> One should be allowed to get their dog in whatever way they want..ie breeder, pet store or rescue or shelter or BYb or whatever other terms we want to use.
> No one tells you, you can only buy a car from a used car dealer or you can only buy your hamburger from Outback and not mcDonalds or you can only adopt children from Europe and not the US.
> Long as they are kept clean, fed watered and medical care as required and within what ever standards of care are required..whether as a buyer or a seller, no one should tell you where to get your pet from.
> Your puppy farms in your country simply sell direct now and quite a few of them sell to people/breeder or what some call puppy mills here in the US. Your breeders get titles on your dogs and then sell them to our breeders for big money.


 How on earth can you compare an animal to a hamburger or a used car? that says it all!!!


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## mazza

Well after reading the many comments made from my original question "WHY DO THEY ALLOW PET SHOPS TO SELL PUPS/DOGS" I am just happy that it was banned in my country many years ago


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## AvaLaRue

At the risk of really getting myself chewed out by all of you.... :lurking:...I bought my oldest ShihTzu, Chewy, from a petstore. I have always, always, always been against pet stores that sell puppies. I have always been the first person to tell people to pleeeease don't purchase a puppy from a pet store. And yet....6 years ago I did it! 

I always just stroll thru the puppy section of my local pet store and just shake my head at all the puppies. They are well taken care of and the cages are always impeccably clean. 

I had been wanting a ShihTzu and one day I was in there and, like always, there were ShihTzu's. This particular one just "spoke" to my heart. It's weird, I know. But I bought him on the spot. 

Other than the fact I broke my own cardinal rule, I have no regrets. I have had ZERO problems with Chewy. He is the healthiest, smartest dog with the biggest heart. He is healthier then my 2nd ShihTzu who I purchased from a hobby breeder. 

Will I ever do it again....no. I am still against it!
Ok...let me have it. :lurking:


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## MaggieRoseLee

AvaLaRue said:


> At the risk of really getting myself chewed out by all of you.... :lurking:...I bought my oldest ShihTzu, Chewy, from a petstore.
> :lurking:


I don't think any of us have issues or problems with the specific puppies purchased from petstores. It certainly isn't their fault they are in that cage being sold. I have met some wonderful pups/dogs that were purchased in petstores.

The reason I'm so against petstores is because of the PARENTS of that puppy and what THEIR life is like. Every person that purchases a petstore puppy allows the puppymillers to stay in business and my $$$$$ will NEVER (even if indirectly) be going into their bank accounts. Or allow them to continue to afford to mistreat and overbreed their dogs just to get as many puppies as possible in the shortest amount of time and in the least amount of space.

Fact of the matter is *NO LEGITIMATE RESPONSIBLE BREEDER* puts their puppies in a pet store. Even my friends who accidentally breed or just don't know what they are doing don't place their dogs in petstores. Unless they are working in conjunction with the local shelters/rescues to help home those pups/dogs, they ARE getting their 'stock' from a puppy miller. This is just fact. Whether it's from a local puppy mill or from further away. 

The following are some videos that show the reality of where the PARENTS of these adorable puppies spend their entire lives, and are usually killed as soon as they no longer have any value as giving more puppies:

Puppymills - Information about puppy mills and how to shut them down.

YouTube - PetShopPuppies's Channel





 




 
So it's not about the puppy. It's about your money used to buy the puppy is going to support the puppy mill breeder AND ALLOW IT TO CONTINUE.


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## chocolat

DJEtzel said:


> The point isn't what venue they're being sold through, it's where they're coming from. Petstores *98% of the time have puppies coming from puppy mills, which are in poor health and end up dead or in a shelter*. Breeders ensure their dogs don't breed (usually), and won't end up in a shelter, and they're bred for good health AND temperment.
> 
> .


 
I am curious where you got these statistics from? Most puppies sold in pet stores are small breed, low shed cute fluffy types. The types least likely to end up in a shelter and if they do end up in a shelter are the ones most highly adoptable.
As far as sick and dying etc.. there are over 500,000 puppies sold in pet store yearly(they dont have exact numbers, but this is the generally accepted number) if memory serves correctly less than 1% will have a serious problem which is about the same ratio of human babies born..only about 1 % will have a serious health issue. 
People dont go back to the pet store and buy more puppies because they are too stupid to do otherwise, they go back because they usually have a positive experience buying thru a pet store and have had such positive experiences for many years.
People want to say a good breeder only sells direct. many of the people who use to sell thru pet stores now sell direct..did they suddenly become better breeders in your eyes? Or are they just harder to spot now?
Pet store puppies came about many many years ago as a result of show breeders. They use to have large kennels, breed lots of (one breed) puppies and have ones with DQ's or faults and those would be sold thru pet stores. It was later encouraged by our gov't for folks to raise puppies(when the midwest was having economic crisis) 
The industry is no longer just the horrific stuff you see on the news. the way the parents are being kept and raised is changing and it is a positive change. You cant regulate out such breeders unless you plan to regulate out your own small hobby/show breeders.


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## selzer

The mainstream media sometimes investigates a pet store because a number of people complain about getting puppies that were sick and either died or needed serious veterinary intervention to keep them alive, but that is not my problem with them, nor most of us I think. It is more along the lines MaggieRoseLee wrote. The care and condition of the breeding animals are subjected to.

I will say no more of that as she said it nicely enough. But I will add that EVERY ONE WHO PURCHASES A PUPPY FROM A PET STORE IS KEEPING THESE PEOPLE IN BUSINESS AND DAMNING MORE BREEDING ANIMALS TO THE SAME FATE.

So AvaLaRue, shame! But puppies are hard to resist. Some do speak to us, and sometimes the effort to leave them there is beyond our humanity and strength. If this is the case for you, don't just say no, do not even go through the door into the place. You may save that puppy that day, but you may have demanded that 3 or 4 more litters were ordered. 

And some of these places actually prey on our humanity and how we feel about those poor little puppies in that horrible cage -- I just couldn't leave him there, I am just saving this one, he was skinny, he was sad, he tore at my heart -- suckers -- that is what the pet store owners are saying as they trapse to the bank with your money. It is an evil, incidious, place. 

We hear horror stories of people ordered to kill bunnies and such. It really is a grusome reality for the puppies. Just being left in the box and having people tap on their window, and lying on wire with their excrement lying and stinking below them. 

But buying them to get them out of their predicament is rewarding the fiend for putting the pup into those conditions, and the creeps that have the parents of the puppies. 

So whether you are happy with your purchase, or not, we really need to get the word out WHY buying from stores is such a bad idea. It is obvious that we have quite a ways to go.


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## AvaLaRue

MLR and Selzer....I 100% know that the majority (if not 100%) of puppies in pet stores come from puppy mills. That has always been my reasoning for not buying a puppy from one and always re-directing friends, etc from purchasing from a pet store. I know the horrors of puppy mills, I am a huge advocate against them.

And you can certainly say shame on me as much as you want. I have done that so much to myself already so what's a few more people. I didn't have to "fess up" to it, but this was a really great topic so I thought I would add my experience of what I did. 

It's a weird connection...I know that sounds kind of corny. But that's what I felt when I saw him. The same thing happened when I rescued my black lab from the pound 14 years ago. There were about 10+ black labs in the pound (black dogs get a bad rap but that's another topic). There were all at least 2+ years old. I made one pass up and down the isle and said "she's the one". I never even temperment tested her out fo the kennel. I just took her home and she was with us for 14 years. She "spoke" to me...we had a connection. She was my doggy soulmate and so is the Shih I got from the pet store.

I love my other Shih and my GSD more than life itself but that same "connection" isnt there.

I am NOT advocating pet stores puppies. I am SO against them. Anyone who knows me will tell you that. Like I said, I am glad I have my shihtzu but I will NEVER do that again. It was wrong, you are absolutly right...I probably did cause a few more litters to be born and placed in that pet store. Shame on me.


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## JakodaCD OA

it boils down to this,,absolutely NO reputable breeder will sell their puppies out of a pet store..


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## selzer

But what if another twangs a heartstring? What if another says, "I'm the one." How can you be certain that you will smother that feeling the next test you are given. 

I said shame, but understand that it is so hard to pass by, especially when one connects that way. If that is how you pick your pets, stay out of pet stores selling pets.


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## AvaLaRue

I am a lot older with a lot more self control now.  I could have easily gone back to the same place for my 2nd Shihtzu but I did not. (see...older and wiser).

I no longer frequent that pet store (it's a local mom and pop shop). I stick to petsmart which does not sell dogs.


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## DJEtzel

chocolat said:


> I am curious where you got these statistics from? Most puppies sold in pet stores are small breed, low shed cute fluffy types. The types least likely to end up in a shelter and if they do end up in a shelter are the ones most highly adoptable.
> As far as sick and dying etc.. there are over 500,000 puppies sold in pet store yearly(they dont have exact numbers, but this is the generally accepted number) if memory serves correctly less than 1% will have a serious problem which is about the same ratio of human babies born..only about 1 % will have a serious health issue.
> People dont go back to the pet store and buy more puppies because they are too stupid to do otherwise, they go back because they usually have a positive experience buying thru a pet store and have had such positive experiences for many years.
> People want to say a good breeder only sells direct. many of the people who use to sell thru pet stores now sell direct..did they suddenly become better breeders in your eyes? Or are they just harder to spot now?
> Pet store puppies came about many many years ago as a result of show breeders. They use to have large kennels, breed lots of (one breed) puppies and have ones with DQ's or faults and those would be sold thru pet stores. It was later encouraged by our gov't for folks to raise puppies(when the midwest was having economic crisis)
> The industry is no longer just the horrific stuff you see on the news. the way the parents are being kept and raised is changing and it is a positive change. You cant regulate out such breeders unless you plan to regulate out your own small hobby/show breeders.


I made the statistics from my own evidence. I've only ever found 1 pet store that sold puppies that weren't from puppy mills. They were from bybs, but still in better conditions than puppy mills at least. Every other chain store I've seen has puppies from puppy mills. 

Most puppies sold in petstores are not small breeds. In a local petstore to me in the mall, right now there are 4 great danes, 2 saints, golden doodles, and GSDs. I only saw the danes and saints, but heard from a friend about the other two breeds they got in. You can't tell me those are small or will end up healthy. It's very likely that those puppies will end up with HD, bloat, or worse, because of their sizes. All cramed into a 2' x 2' cage with no bedding or toys, 2-4 in a cage. 

We had 3 dogs last month abandoned at our shelter that came from a pet store. A havanese/bichon, pug/beagle, and golden retriever/poodle. The Havanese was only with it's owners for 3 days before they surrendered it. The puggle stayed in our shelter for 4 weeks before anyone was interested. Highly adopted my butt. You're wrong on two levels, so far. 

So less than 1% will have a serious issue right away or in it's life? I'd really like to know the stats on that. You cannot compare humans to dogs anyway, they're a completely different story, bred completely differently. 

And I believe people go back because they are stupid. They got a dog from a pet store, say it was a GSD. Grew up, got HD from being bred poorly, but because it was a great dog and GSDs are so prone, they didn't think it was the sources fault because they are ignorant. If they had bought from a good breeder and had a dog without HD they may have realized they were wrong and the pups were not quality in pet stores. They just have nothing to compare it to, is the issue. 

Personally, I regulate ALL breeders. If they aren't reputable, whether they're puppy mills, byb, or hobby breeders (which most byb are) then I don't buy. I'd like to see your evidence of these puppy mills being changed for the better, although regardless of how clean and vetted, etc they can keep them, it's still cruel because they aren't being pets like they should be, and they aren't working either. No titles, no health testing = NO GOOD, plain and simple. They could be keeping their puppy mill dogs in the taj mahal, but if they aren't fulfilling a purpose with titles to back it up, they're still a backyard breeding puppy mill.


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## selzer

I think that it is important to remember that buying from a pet store does not mean you will have an unhealthy puppy. AND that buying from a reputable breeder WILL mean that your puppy will be healthy. 

The rain falls and the good and the bad. 

I think it is more likely to get a puppy with immediate health problems from a puppy mill than from a reputable breeder. 

However, even with hip scores, ofas, etc, the dogs may still produce genetic issues. 

So when you say the fellow got a dog that developed HD, but as the breed is so prone, he does not attribute it to its breeding -- good for him. It is not ignorance, in fact it can be the luck of the draw. 

What do you say to the fellow who goes the whole nine yards, ensuring hip and elbow certificates back four generations, buys a puppy and shazaam, two years later, his hip x-rays are uncertifiable due to dysplasia? Is he ignorant? 

I am sorry, but if we tell people that they will get unhealthy dogs from pet stores, and they end up with healthy dogs from pet stores, or they have had a healthy dog from a pet store, everything we say then comes into question. 

it is better to stick to the fact that people who care about what they are producing do not let them end up in pet stores, where they have no say on who purchases them.

It is better to stick to the fact that people who do not care about what they are producing are far morel likely not to care about how they are produced and how their sire and dam are kept.

If we use the problem free argument, when they buy from a breeder and have problems, they will come back to you and say this dog has cost me more than my last three pet store dogs put together.


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## selzer

DJEtzel said:


> Personally, I regulate ALL breeders. If they aren't reputable, whether they're puppy mills, byb, or hobby breeders (which most byb are) then I don't buy. I'd like to see your evidence of these puppy mills being changed for the better, although regardless of how clean and vetted, etc they can keep them, it's still cruel because they aren't being pets like they should be, and they aren't working either. No titles, no health testing = NO GOOD, plain and simple. They could be keeping their puppy mill dogs in the taj mahal, but if they aren't fulfilling a purpose with titles to back it up, they're still a backyard breeding puppy mill.



You are saying most BYBs are hobby breeders? please explain this.


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## BlackPuppy

There is a huge corporation, The Hunte Corporation - Where Puppies Come First, that acts as a middleman between breeder and pet shop who brokers these puppies. They'd be out of business.


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## BlackPuppy

chocolat said:


> what is the cost to adopt from your Monmouth county shelter?
> 
> exactly how did they pay for a building like that?


The Cincinnati SPCA recently remodeled an old church complex into a state of the art adoption facility. They fund it though donations. They mail me a request for money about 4 times a year. I think I donate to them every other time. 

Though, I don't understand why they needed the lodge style fireplace in their lobby. LOL! Actually, I really like the place.


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## selzer

And should be, in my opinion. (the Hunte corporation)

They are not in existence because they want to see people all over the country united with the best companions possible.

No, they are in business to make money, as is the puppy mill, and also the pet store. 

There is nothing wrong with making money. 

But instead of paying a puppy mill $50 for $10 worth of food and care, the hunt corporation $600 for a medical exam, vaccination, wormer, and transportion, and a pet store $600 for housing the puppy for a few weeks in a small crate and cleaning its poo once or twice a day, I guess I would prefer to give that sum to a breeder who cares about their dogs and provides the basics, and more.


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## DJEtzel

selzer said:


> You are saying most BYBs are hobby breeders? please explain this.


Well, I think this sort of depends on your definition of hobby breeders. Mine is anyone breeding dogs for a hobby. Kennels, home pets, etc. The majority of byb I see are doing just that. They're breeding dogs for something to do, but are doing it badly. They either don't realize they're not doing it right or don't care. 

I'm sure you've seen many breeders with websites thinking their pups are grand, but they're just backyard breeders like the rest.


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## selzer

This is why terminology is so important. You see hobby breeders as a negative thing, just something to do, like building model airplanes. 

I see hobby breeders as a good thing. People, not kids collecting shells or coins, but people who are true enthusiasts, or hobbyists, spend a lot of time, energy, thought, and money on their hobbies. 

For example, my Dad is into traditional bow hunting. He has built machines to enable him to make his own arrows, and many other things. Because of his shoulder, the hobby morphed into a general machining hobby. He researches on the web, spends hours and days in the basement working on this stuff. If his hobby was GSDs, he would be anal about nutrician, he would research every veterinary issue on the net, and become a better vet than those with the education, he would be training the dogs to do everything. 

This is what hobbyist breeders are to me. There dogs are generally pets -- which from your previous post is what you want. The alternative are commercial breeders, puppy mills, and BYBs, most of which do not keep the animals as pets, save some BYBs. 

Hobbyists may have a pack of dogs or just one. But they do train their dogs, and show them, either in conformation or in peformance or schutzhund. They may actually work with the dogs -- SAR or some type of service, tracking, bomb detection. I am not putting LEOs here.

Hobbyists do not have so many dogs that they cannot provide proper veterinary care for their dogs. And they for the most part participate in breed specific genetic testing.

Hobbyists have the time and the passion to research bloodlines and make an effort to understand the dogs behind their dog and what their dog needs. 

I think that for some commercial breeders -- maybe some top show that has tons of dogs -- not thinking of any in particular because I do not know any that operate that way, but they may also make it a point to know the lines. But a commercial breeder will be producing dogs for a specific purpose -- they are either schutzhund quality or pet quality, they are either show quality or pet quality. There is no in-between. I think a hobbyist will breed the all around dog much moreso than a commercial breeder breeding for a single purpose.

On the other hand, a hobbyist passion may be for obedience or schutzhund or conformation, and they may spend their entire energies in that particular venue. 

I think that the majority of us would be wanting to purchase from a good hobby breeder than any other kind. 

A BYB can breed as a hobby, dabbling a little in bloodlines, a little in this or that dog-venue, but they set themselves as bybs by the level of care, and lack of direction/purpose. 

BYBs can go from being almost a puppy mill, to being almost a hobby breeder, in the environment, food, health screening, etc. I think for me what makes a BYB a byb is their lack of purpose, their overal goal. BYBs goal is to make puppies, whatever they say. A puppy mill's goal is to make money, whatever they may say. Hobby breeders are trying to produce puppies that closely match the ideal shepherd as put out by the standards and whatever trials or avenues the hobbyist is most interested in. I think that there are commercial breeders out there trying to make a name for themselves through their dogs -- larger kennel names, trying to produce dogs for specific traits or abilities, and perhaps not deserving a negative label for doing so.


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## MaggieRoseLee

selzer said:


> But what if another twangs a heartstring? What if another says, "I'm the one." How can you be certain that you will smother that feeling the next test you are given.
> 
> I said shame, but understand that it is so hard to pass by, especially when one connects that way. If that is how you pick your pets, stay out of pet stores selling pets.


Truthfully, staying out of petstores that sell puppies not only means my heartstrings aren't pulled (or that I get furious cause I think of the parents of the puppies I'm seeing and what their lives must be).......... but it also means that my cash money is not only NOT being spent on the puppies to support mills...

But also when I stay completely out of these stores it means zero of my money is used in a petstore who is promoting puppy mills and paying for the puppies. So I don't buy pet food from these stores, or dog toys, or leashes or anything.

I do not enter these stores. I will not support these stores. And this guarantees I don't spend one cent of MY money in these stores. Not one adult dog is living in a rabbit cage on a wire mesh flooring because I indirectly was paying their owner to keep it there.


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## DJEtzel

I don't see hobby breeders as a negative thing, I just think that they can be negative. 

I see hobby breeders as anyone spending time in their home breeding dogs. Some are reputable hobby breeders that have a purpose and show dogs, do health testing, etc. and some are byb that have a breeding program similar to a reputable breeder, but don't show or do health testing, just say they have great pups, stable temperments, etc. 

I see hobby breeders as a category that byb and reputable breeder can both fall into. Some hobby breeders just don't cut it as reputable and fall into the byb category.


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## sagelfn

chocolat said:


> they are only obvious reasons to those who disagree with the practice
> *despite what the extremist want you to believe not all puppies in pet stores come from "puppy mills" quite a few come from some pretty nice professional breeding kennels*
> 
> One should be allowed to get their dog in whatever way they want..ie breeder, pet store or rescue or shelter or BYb or whatever other terms we want to use.
> No one tells you, you can only buy a car from a used car dealer or you can only buy your hamburger from Outback and not mcDonalds or you can only adopt children from Europe and not the US.
> *Long as they are kept clean, fed watered and medical care as required and within what ever standards of care are required..whether as a buyer or a seller, no one should tell you where to get your pet from.*
> Your puppy farms in your country simply sell direct now and quite a few of them sell to people/breeder or what some call puppy mills here in the US. Your breeders get titles on your dogs and then sell them to our breeders for big money.


Wow... care to define "nice professional breeding kennel"? its already been said but I'll say it again no reputable breeder would hand a pup over to a pet shop

You're right in USA you have the right to get your pup any place you want but you should be responsible and informed. Do you honestly think a pet shop environment is good for puppies?


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## selzer

DJEtzel, What kind of breeder do you support? Where would you get a puppy?


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## MaggieRoseLee

sagelfn said:


> Wow... care to define "nice professional breeding kennel"? its already been said but I'll say it again no reputable breeder would hand a pup over to a pet shop
> 
> You're right in USA you have the right to get your pup any place you want but you should be responsible and informed. Do you honestly think a pet shop environment is good for puppies?


and again...

I'll say it again no reputable breeder would hand a pup over to a pet shop

I think the question is what a 'responsible' breeder is to us. These sites may help clear it up for chocolat and show why we know they don't sell to petstores:

Dog Play: Making a Difference: Being a Responsible Dog Breeder

Dog Owner's Guide: Should you breed your dog?

What is a Breeder

Backyard Breeder vs Reputable Breeder


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## DJEtzel

selzer said:


> DJEtzel, What kind of breeder do you support? Where would you get a puppy?


I'm slightly confused. Are you asking me if I support a reputable breeder, hobby breeder in general, byb, puppy mill, etc? 

And when you ask where would I get a puppy, do you mean what venue or what specific breeder?


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## selzer

No, you do not seem to want to buy a puppy from people who do not keep their bitch at home as a pet, and yet a BYB or a hobby breeder would be the only kind of breeder that would. Large commercial kennels and puppy mills really do not. But by what you are saying, there really is no type of breeder that would be ok in your opinion. I am asking if that is the case, and if not, what type of breeder you would be willing to purchase a pup from.


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## DJEtzel

I never said that hobby breeders are all bad. It would be a hobby breeder I would feel comfortable buying from, but what I was saying is that many hobby breeders are bybs as well, in my opinion of what a hobby breeder is, anyway. 

I have no problem buying from a breeder that shows, titles, and does health testing, and has dogs with lines and drives that I like/want, and they are kept in conditions I approve of. I'm not fond of kennel breeders where dogs are kept in kennels all the time for space, I prefer the dogs treated like pets and not just puppy machines.


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## sagelfn

bybs are not hobby breeders, they may claim to be but they are just bybs

actual hobby breeders are reputable, if they aren't then they aren't hobby breeders


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## GSDolch

sagelfn said:


> bybs are not hobby breeders, they may claim to be but they are just bybs
> 
> actual hobby breeders are reputable, if they aren't then they aren't hobby breeders



I think one needs to look at where on lives also.

here, BYB and Hobby Breeders are one in the same. There is no difference.

You either show/title/work your dogs and put forth effort into making it and being responsible. Or, You breed to dogs and make money.

Welcome to the south! lol.


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## arycrest

GSDolch said:


> I think one needs to look at where on lives also.
> 
> here, BYB and Hobby Breeders are one in the same. There is no difference.
> 
> You either show/title/work your dogs and put forth effort into making it and being responsible. Or, You breed to dogs and make money.
> 
> Welcome to the south! lol.


I've always considered hobby breeders to be the reputable breeders, separate from BYB's and commercial breeders/puppy mills. Until this thread I never knew there was a difference of opinion as to the definition of the terms.

So when I speak of hobby breeders and reputable breeders they're one and the same, yet someone reading what I write will read something different than what I mean.

Am I the only one confused over the terms?


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## chocolat

There shouldnt be phrases like hobby, byb, puppy mills etc.. there should be 2 phrases

"breeder/kennel"
"sub standard breeder/kennel"

this tells us directly whether the care levels are there or not there.
Anything else is personal preference as to where you like to buy your dog..ie someone that titles their dogs etc..


all those other phrases have no defintion and as we have already seen here , many people think of them as different things, not even realizing that someone else they were chatting with defines the phrase differently

seems because I defend everyones right to breed I am now known as the evil puppy mill lover.
I hate smoking with a passion, but I will stand and defend a smokers right to smoke
I hate alcohol even more..2 alcoholic dads and 3 adopted kids with fetal alcohol syndrome(mental retardation due to alcohol consumed by their moms while in uetro) I REALLY hate alcohol, but I will defend your right to have a beer or whatever as long as you arent hurting anyone else.

The moment we dont stand by and defend things, even if we personally dont like it, is the moment we are willing to give up our own rights.
Ban sale of puppy in pet stores, soon the sales move to the internet and newspaper..then what we ban those sales? and then how do you expect to research pedigrees and find breeders that you do wish to do business with? So many laws will be made in this attempt to stop some breeding you disagree with, that you soon will create your own noose.
You cant and should not say 'no puppy mills" you should say "no substandard kennels/breeders" and from there define what care level is fair and reasonable to expect

Think its horrible to keep dogs in "puppy mill" cages, yet many here advocate 'crate training" a cage which happens to be smaller than what is usually required by AWA guidelines, but its ok because you call it a crate and it keeps your dog safe. So, you make a law that "puppy mill cages" are illegal..guess what, people with even more extreme views than you will push until that law outlaws your keeping dogs in any crates.

It can and will happen if we dont jealously start guarding breeding dogs now. Many extremist believe "better dead than bred" and they werent talking just "puppy mills"


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## mazza

I am so glad that over here in England banning Pet Shops from selling puppies its wrong and inhumane that is my opinion. I do not agree with ALL of the laws for example American Pit bulls are banned here for being classed as a dangerous breed which is a load of rubbish but as far as selling puppies from shops just to ring in the daily profit is wrong and I am glad we seen the back of it many years ago


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## DJEtzel

chocolat said:


> There shouldnt be phrases like hobby, byb, puppy mills etc.. there should be 2 phrases
> 
> "breeder/kennel"
> "sub standard breeder/kennel"
> 
> this tells us directly whether the care levels are there or not there.
> Anything else is personal preference as to where you like to buy your dog..ie someone that titles their dogs etc..
> 
> _____________________________________________________________
> 
> Think its horrible to keep dogs in "puppy mill" cages, yet many
> here advocate 'crate training" a cage which happens to be smaller than what is usually required by AWA guidelines, but its ok because you call it a crate and it keeps your dog safe. So, you make a law that "puppy mill cages" are illegal..guess what, people with even more extreme views than you will push until that law outlaws your keeping dogs in any crates.
> 
> It can and will happen if we dont jealously start guarding breeding dogs now. Many extremist believe "better dead than bred" and they werent talking just "puppy mills"


First, those definitions/wordings are just as bad. What consitutes a breeder/kennel or substandard? How about bad breeder/good breeder?

And how we judge breeders is not just judged on care levels, those things you consider personal preference should not be. There are not good breeders for most breeds that do not title their dogs and give them appropriate health testing. There is not one good breeder I know of GSD that don't title and ofa/cerf. It shouldn't be a personal preference whether or not you want your pup to come from titled parents, because if you're going through a breeder, that should be the only way to go or you're purchasing from a bad breeder, or byb. 

How big are puppy mill cages? I don't think they are bigger than my dogs crate, but that is still beside the point. Those dogs are kept in those cages 24/7. That is not what I, nor any other responsible owner does with our dogs or puppies. My dog is not in his cage for more than 4 hours a day, gets adequate exercise, health care, etc. There is a HUGE difference.


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## chocolat

DJEtzel said:


> First, those definitions/wordings are just as bad. What consitutes a breeder/kennel or substandard? How about bad breeder/good breeder?
> 
> 
> How big are puppy mill cages?.


 
there are very specific laws governing care of animals. Commercial breeders must adhere to the Animal Welfare Act
you should be able to read those guidelines here
Animal Welfare Act : Government and Professional Resources : Animal Welfare Information Center

One requirement is they must be in a cage at least 6 inches taller and 6 inches longer than the largest dog in the cage and if housed in a cage of that type size they must be provided excercise outside the cage. I dont know the regs by heart, but you can review them at the above link

again "standards of care" are very much defined by almost every state and certainly federally. Someone operating at less than standard would be substandard. If you tell me you went to a substandard kennel, i know you visited one that didnt meet AT LEAST the min above requirements.
If you went to a kennel and said they were a "hobby breeder" I wouldnt know if you meant someone as the one poster said could be a BYB, puppy miller, into showing, not into showing who knows.
I have often found breeders are great for calling another breeder a "puppy miller" just because they disagree and that has been shown on this board


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## Vinnie

Lets get back on topic please. 



mazza said:


> I have just found out that there are "pet shops" in America who are "ALLOWED" to sell puppies/dogs can any-one tell me why this is as over here in England all pet shops are not allowed to do so, it was banned many,many years ago for obvious reasons


Thanks,
Vinnie
Admin.


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## mazza

If I where to go out now to buy a puppy the first thing breeder has to do is show me parents K.C. papers and then registration of puppies. Chocolat you said that no-one dictates where I buy a hamburger or used car, there is a MASSIVE difference between those and a living breathing animal. The law in England was not changed on a whim it was changed for good reason. I have kept dogs of all breeds for more than 20 years and every-one of them has been K.C. registered by the breeder. I cannot believe that you are in favour of this outrages practise.


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## Dainerra

those "bare minimum" requirements could be considered "substandard". Do you really think that puppy mills provide exercise to the dozens (if not hundreds) of dogs that they own?

Freya lived her entire life in a kennel that was 7' by 13', and I can guarantee that it was a substandard living condition.


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## mazza

are you replying to my message? These requirements are not "bare minimum" as the Kennel Club can trace every dog registered and how many litters it has produced and all breeders have to show parents and living quarters to potential owners. I am not some wet behind the ears teenager I have had dogs all my life and know the difference. That is why I asked the original question why are pet shops in the States are allowed to sell puppies, that is something outrageous


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## Dainerra

sorry, I was referring to the minimum standards Chocolat mentioned.


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## chocolat

mazza said:


> If I where to go out now to buy a puppy the first thing breeder has to do is show me parents K.C. papers and then registration of puppies. Chocolat you said that no-one dictates where I buy a hamburger or used car, there is a MASSIVE difference between those and a living breathing animal. The law in England was not changed on a whim it was changed for good reason. I have kept dogs of all breeds for more than 20 years and every-one of them has been K.C. registered by the breeder. I cannot believe that you are in favour of this outrages practise.


 
where do you buy your goldfish?
your gerbils?
guinea pigs?
cockatoos?

I didnt say whether I favor pet stores selling puppies or not. i said that if you ban the sale of pet stores selling puppies, they will just sell them direct. In fact, most already do. 

why did you have so many breeds? are you a puppy miller?


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## chocolat

Dainerra said:


> those "bare minimum" requirements could be considered "substandard". Do you really think that puppy mills provide exercise to the dozens (if not hundreds) of dogs that they own?
> 
> Freya lived her entire life in a kennel that was 7' by 13', and I can guarantee that it was a substandard living condition.


then we need to do as I suggested and change what regulations there are until they arent substandard.
we have laws, they need enforcement and they may need improvements, but we dont need bans of anything


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## Dainerra

how do you regulate that, though? It's not just the size of the enclosure. In Freya's case it was lack of human interaction. How do you regulate how much time a person spends with their dogs and how much they socialize their dogs with other people? 
You can't! Regulations don't make someone a good breeder; a faceless corporation pumping out puppy after puppy can meet requirements for cage being this size as well as other requirements for physical needs. It's the more personal needs that will always be lacking. Many stores have stopped selling pets; instead, they sponsor adoption days for the Humane Society. It hasn't made John Q. Public throw up his arms in despair. 
I don't think encouraging lawmakers to try to make one size fits all regulations that puppy mills will ignore anyway is the way to go. Instead, education and public opinion are being used. Every person who gets a dog from ANYWHERE else is 1 less dog produced by a puppy mill.


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## mazza

chocolat said:


> where do you buy your goldfish?
> your gerbils?
> guinea pigs?
> cockatoos?
> 
> I didnt say whether I favor pet stores selling puppies or not. i said that if you ban the sale of pet stores selling puppies, they will just sell them direct. In fact, most already do.
> 
> why did you have so many breeds? are you a puppy miller?


Firstly it is none of you business how many dogs or breeds I have and as for asking me am I a puppy miller HOW DARE YOU


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## DJEtzel

chocolat said:


> where do you buy your goldfish?
> your gerbils?
> guinea pigs?
> cockatoos?
> 
> I didnt say whether I favor pet stores selling puppies or not. i said that if you ban the sale of pet stores selling puppies, they will just sell them direct. In fact, most already do.
> 
> why did you have so many breeds? are you a puppy miller?


All of the animals you listed should also be banned from pet stores, as far as I'm concerned. I will not buy any of them from them for the same reason I won't buy puppies. 

I buy all of my fish (I'm a fish enthusiast and breeder) from high-quality breeders all over the world, and have them shipped to me.


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## selzer

chocolat, I think puppy sales should be direct. One can advertise on the internet and market over the internet, send e-mail back and forth, but if everyone was required to go to the address where the dam is listed as living, then they will meet the breeder, and see for themselves where the dog is living. 

For reasons of not wanting to spread disease or whatever, the breeder may choose not to let you back into their kennels, but you really cannot hide a smelly elephant. 

The moment you step out of your vehicle, you would hear a variety of dog breeds yammering and there would most likely be odor and a general feeling of neglect. (I am thinking right now about my lawn which needs to be mowed and my weed garden, and my front door that needs encouragement to open from either side.)

I think that if people did buy direct, the majority would walk away from the worst type of kennels and those places would clean up their act, or go out of business. 

But there are ways around ANYTHING. These nasty breeders do not mind breaking laws. They do it now. They will just break the additional laws. I agree that we cannot force people by law to become responsible breeders or owners. So I am not in favor of additional laws.

I think that banning sales of puppies from retail establishments would seriously and negatively affect puppy mills. But I also think it is more important to educate the public. 

Just banning the sales of puppies in stores will not eduate the buyers at all. They will be inconvenienced, maybe. It may be that they will find the new system that will be set up in the place of selling in stores even more buyer friendly. I am thinking a white van showing up at your door with your puppy, travel crate, bag of food, leash, collar, food dishes, tie out. Big blue letters on the van saying PET'S TO YOU or Pet Deliveries R Us.

What they replace pet store puppies with in the states, could be as bad if not worse than what is currently, unless we educate the public. Too many people still do not understand why buying from pet stores is so bad.

Lastly, what does it matter if the dogs in stores are large active breeds, or small purse type breeds? Both as puppies require considerable care that they are not receiving left to themselves in a box in a store. It is true that the millers are overloaded with small dogs right now, because that is the major demand. These dogs need grooming, often much more of it than our big guys need. They can keep a lot more souls in the same square footage. 1 dog's suffering = 1 dog's suffering, if you are managing 50 medium to large dogs, a miller could dump them and put 250 or more of the little ones in the same area. It is not so much the puppies that are in the store, but the adults behind those puppies, with matted fur, blind and lame from sheer neglect. So, I do not get a warm fuzzy feeling when I see little dogs in pet stores. I find it even more disturbing.


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## selzer

mazza said:


> Firstly it is none of you business how many dogs or breeds I have and as for asking me am I a puppy miller HOW DARE YOU


and yet, so many new breeder laws are asking for fingerprinting and background checks -- the very idea of someone having a kennel license means they are probably a scoundrel who needs to be marked and watched and accused of God knows what.

The moment you say that you are a breeder, the idea of puppy mills march through so many people's minds, to the point where we feel the necessity to qualify what type of breeder we are. 

We cannot say, "I am a reputable breeder." We say instead, I train and title and show all my dogs, or I have just one litter per year, or any number of qualifiers that attempt to prove our innocense of being a puppy mill or a byb. 

It is infuriating to be thus accused. 

I tried to call Rush's breeder once and inverted the exchange 576-wxyz instead of 567-wxyz. Boy did I get an earful when I asked if she was the breeder. Hostile??? One would think that I called the president of PETA. 

Just having intact dogs will get you this type of scrutiny. 

I keep hoping it will get better.


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## sagelfn

Sue, have you seen nextdaypets.com ? that is the new easier version of pet shops


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## selzer

Nope, missed it. 

I am still disgusted by the hunte corp, selling all types of breeds and designer breeds out of holiday ins.


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## MaggieRoseLee

chocolat said:


> Think its horrible to keep dogs in "puppy mill" cages, yet many here advocate 'crate training" a cage which happens to be smaller than what is usually required by AWA guidelines, but its ok because you call it a crate and it keeps your dog safe. So, you make a law that "puppy mill cages" are illegal..guess what, people with even more extreme views than you will push until that law outlaws your keeping dogs in any crates.


Crate 'training' is just that. Use of a crate to housebreak and keep a dog safe while they are learning the house rules.

Cratetraining is NOTHING like keeping a dog in a crate for 100% of it's life while it's bred, has puppies, and then is killed when it no longer can make money by producing more puppies. 

Be like saying tethering your dog for it's lifetime to a tree with a 6' chain is the same as using a 6' leash to walk your dog. One is for training and the safety of your dog. The other is a cruel lifetime for a dog.


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## selzer

I know a lot of people crate a dog a whole lot more than four hours. But even those dogs that sleep crated and are crated for the work day, and perhaps at other times when the owner cannot watch them, at least the crate is in and around the family when they are home. 

Dogs in puppy mills see someone once a day when they are flung food. Possibly once a week when a hopper of food is filled up. They are not called by name, they are not talked to, taken out and exercised, trained, groomed, bathed, petted. 

Likening a crate to a puppy mill cage indicates that there is misunderstanding about the plight of these dogs.


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## mazza

I love my dogs and have always had dogs in my life I am an owner not a breeder I have never bred any of the dogs I have had, but just because I have German Shepherds, Dobermanns & Weimaraners does not give chocolat or any body else the right to think or ask if I am a puppy miller So just for the record ALL of my dogs are rescued dogs. There are other people on this and other forums that have more than one breed of dog it doesn't make them a puppy miller either


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## MaggieRoseLee

mazza said:


> I love my dogs and have always had dogs in my life I am an owner not a breeder I have never bred any of the dogs I have had, but just because I have German Shepherds, Dobermanns & Weimaraners does not give chocolat or any body else the right to think or ask if I am a puppy miller So just for the record ALL of my dogs are rescued dogs. There are other people on this and other forums that have more than one breed of dog it doesn't make them a puppy miller either


Think to be a puppy miller, it's not about owning different breeds (heck I've had Labs and GSD's so that would make me a puppy miller! :wild: )

A puppy mill is a place that BREEDS, and their only goal is the cash. So the most pups, the fastest, and the animals are treated like livestock and just about the cash.


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## mazza

That's why I could not understand why chocolat asked me if I was a puppy miller, that comment was uncalled for and out of order


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## MaggieRoseLee

mazza said:


> That's why I could not understand why chocolat asked me if I was a puppy miller, that comment was uncalled for and out of order


And now chocolat knows better......:apple:


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## mazza

Oh i do hope so my friend it was a hurtful thing to say.......but I'm over it


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## MaggieRoseLee

mazza said:


> Oh i do hope so my friend it was a hurtful thing to say.......but I'm over it


Hey, you are in good company (according to me) cause under his definition I'm a puppy miller too!!!  Not!!!


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## mazza

ha,ha I just asked the "hundreds" of breeds I have got if they thought their mum was a puppy miller...they all said no but we like a bit of Glen Miller


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## JudynRich

Why you ask..because people continue to buy from pet shops...a few big cities have banned the practice, but people impulsively buy that puppy in the window, and as long as there is a demand....I have heard back yard breeders also sell their puppies to pet shops.


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## chocolat

mazza said:


> That's why I could not understand why chocolat asked me if I was a puppy miller, that comment was uncalled for and out of order


 
Sorry I was trying to make a point. How can we accuse people of being puppy millers if we A) dont have an agreeable definition, B) never met the person or their place before.
we assume that being sold in a pet store means you dont care as a breeder. we assume banning pet store sales will stop "the problem" we put out things like a puppy miller has many breeds of dogs..yet you have many breeds of dogs and were insulted to even be considered a puppy miller. Did you enjoy being judged just based on having more than one breed?
again , banning sales in pet stores changes nothing, limitting the numbers of dogs or breeds a person has changes nothing.
The most we can reasonable do is set care guidelines and insist dogs are kept in a fashion that meets or exceeds those guidelines.
You cant force people to be good, you cant regulate and require "goodness" 

selzer, is right it is up to the consumer to dictate where they buy and what they are willing to accept or tolerate, and if you wish to educate the consumer that a good breeder meets "x,y,z " requirements then that is great and go a lot further than banning puppies in pet stores ever will.


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## Dainerra

The point of "having many breeds = puppy mill" isn't a matter of owning several different types of dogs, but breeding many different types of dogs. It's that it takes a LOT of work to keep up with all the background work of 1 breed - pedigrees, shows, working titles, health issues, research. If you have 3 or 4 (or more) breeds of dogs, how could you have time to do it properly?

The reason everyone agrees is that a reputable breeder would NEVER sell through a pet store is simple. When a dog goes into a pet store, the breeder has zero say over what type of home that dog goes to. The first person to walk in with some $$ takes home the dog, no questions asked. Good breeders not only carefully screen their buyers, but work to educate them and provide support after the fact. If the situation doesn't work out, they take the pup back and rehome it.

I agree that you can't legislate goodness.


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## DJEtzel

I don't think anyone besides you think that a puppy miller is a person with more than one breed of dog. It's a person with dozens of intact dogs kept in cages and bred over and over again to make puppies to sell for a profit, in undesirable conditions.


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## MaggieRoseLee

chocolat said:


> ... it is up to the consumer to dictate where they buy and what they are willing to accept or tolerate, and if you wish to educate the consumer that a good breeder meets "x,y,z " requirements then that is great and go a lot further than banning puppies in pet stores ever will.


I'm all for educating the consumer.... cause I agree that's what will work. If everyone knows where the puppies come from who are in the petstores. So people refuse to purchase their puppies from there, it will close down the puppy mills.

Fact is with MILLIONS of pups/dogs be killed in shelters each year, the problem isn't a supply of dogs. It's just hooking up all the dog with people. And if they didn't have the opportunity to walk by that adorable puppy while they were shopping for pants in the mall, and instead had to THINK about going to a shelter to look for a puppy, all the better to kill an impulse buy anyways.


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## sagelfn

Dainerra said:


> The point of "having many breeds = puppy mill" isn't a matter of owning several different types of dogs, but breeding many different types of dogs. It's that it takes a LOT of work to keep up with all the background work of 1 breed - pedigrees, shows, working titles, health issues, research. If you have 3 or 4 (or more) breeds of dogs, how could you have time to do it properly?
> 
> The reason everyone agrees is that a reputable breeder would NEVER sell through a pet store is simple. When a dog goes into a pet store, the breeder has zero say over what type of home that dog goes to. The first person to walk in with some $$ takes home the dog, no questions asked. Good breeders not only carefully screen their buyers, but work to educate them and provide support after the fact. If the situation doesn't work out, they take the pup back and rehome it.
> 
> I agree that you can't legislate goodness.


:thumbup:


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## mazza

chocolat said:


> Sorry I was trying to make a point. How can we accuse people of being puppy millers if we A) dont have an agreeable definition, B) never met the person or their place before.
> we assume that being sold in a pet store means you dont care as a breeder. we assume banning pet store sales will stop "the problem" we put out things like a puppy miller has many breeds of dogs..yet you have many breeds of dogs and were insulted to even be considered a puppy miller. Did you enjoy being judged just based on having more than one breed?
> again , banning sales in pet stores changes nothing, limitting the numbers of dogs or breeds a person has changes nothing.
> The most we can reasonable do is set care guidelines and insist dogs are kept in a fashion that meets or exceeds those guidelines.
> You cant force people to be good, you cant regulate and require "goodness"
> 
> selzer, is right it is up to the consumer to dictate where they buy and what they are willing to accept or tolerate, and if you wish to educate the consumer that a good breeder meets "x,y,z " requirements then that is great and go a lot further than banning puppies in pet stores ever will.


Hang on one minute chocolat, why on earth are you asking me if I ENJOYED being JUDGED you were the only person throwing those half baked questions at me do you actually know what a puppy miller is? Because from what you are writing it doesnt look like you have a clue to be quite honest


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## chocolat

DJEtzel said:


> I don't think anyone besides you think that a puppy miller is a person with more than one breed of dog. It's a person with dozens of intact dogs kept in cages and bred over and over again to make puppies to sell for a profit, in undesirable conditions.


Interesting concept

it is wrong to make a profit selling a puppy because?

always fascinating why it is ok and expected to make a profit selling a cow or a llama, but sell a dog and you should be losing money..lose enough money and you will indeed not be caring properly for your dogs, as you wont have the money needed to keep them fed.
Foolish to equate profit with whether you care about your dogs or not

One can't breed dogs "over and over again" you can only breed them approx twice a year and there is scientific studies showing it is actually healthier for the female to be bred each heat and then retired around 5-6 yrs old and spayed. This notion that a commercial breeder is "pumping out puppies" stems more from our own human feelings than actual scientific findings
==================================
Home

It is Dr.Robert Van Hutchinson

"As bitches age, they get cysts within their uterus which can obstruct the pathway - a good reason in an older bitch for considering a surgical insemination.

Conception takes place in the Fallopian Tubes regardless of the method of insemination.

An older bitch is any bitch over 5, by the way; several of you asked.

The fertilized eggs are then released into the uterus, but don't implant until day 17-18 after ovulation. So if there are uterine lining problems, we either don't have implantation OR...the placenta, which actually grows into the lining of the uterus, can't grow or be maintained, and the puppies are reabsorbed. It will develop as the night goes on, how to detect some of these problems.

When a bitch ovulates, whether we breed her, don't breed her, or pretend she's not in season, the progesterone HAMMERS the uterine lining for sixty-plus days.

The progesterone level is NOT affected by pregnancy. In the cow for example, if the uterus does not get communication from the fertilized egg by day 16, the whole process starts over again. In the bitch, you don't have that luxury.

Even though the bitch's body produces the progesterone, the progesterone is inflammatory to the uterine lining, so that after a heat cycle, the bitch's uterus is never as healthy as it was before the heat cycle. So we go from a normal uterus... and this start's with the first cycle of her life...to an endometritis to endometrial hyperplasia, which some of you have been asking about - this is when the uterus starts to thicken and we start to get bubbles in the lining of the uterus - these changes affect the uterine lining so much so that eventually the uterus cannot control the bacteria, and the ultimate end stage is pyometritis.

So, in the bitch... So breeding back to back... or even back to back to back to back....this is WHY it's such a crime we don't have Cheque drops on the market now, to preserve the bitch's uterine lining.

Several of you have asked when they will be back on the market....one company promised by this spring.

Pyometritis is a hormonal disease, of which the infection is only secondary. Cheque drops is a wonderful product.... that was Miberolone...a male hormone derivative that could safely delay a bitch coming in season for up to two years. Ovaban is a different product, same as human Megace. These are progesterone products, the exact hormone we are trying to preserve our uteruses from.We should NEVER use ovaban or megace in a bitch we want to breed in the future.

Cheque drops are NOT progesterone.We could show bitches, we could field trial bitches, and still have a uterus that was only 2-3 years old in a five year old bitch!Cheque drops preserve and promote fertility by preserving the uterine lining. "


Here is a link to a transcript of an interview

http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=1224


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## chocolat

mazza said:


> Hang on one minute chocolat, why on earth are you asking me if I ENJOYED being JUDGED you were the only person throwing those half baked questions at me do you actually know what a puppy miller is? Because from what you are writing it doesnt look like you have a clue to be quite honest


 
I apologize for offending you and not being able to express myself in a way that you could understand what I meant. Again, I am sorry.


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## selzer

Before I met one lady, I would agree completely that more than one breed -- being a breeder of more than one breed of dog would equal puppy mill. 

But then I met this person, and took a pedigree to her, and on a seven generation pedigree, some American and some German lines, of a dog that was not out of her lines, she KNEW stuff about probably half the dogs. It blew me away. 

Over the years this person had bred various breeds -- not all at the same time, but sometimes more than just one. She gets deep into whatever she is doing, and has the sharpest mind and memory that I have encountered. She is not a puppy mill or a BYB. 

And then there are those of us who struggle to have a working knowledge of just one breed. 

And this is another point in classifying people, dog owners, breeders into specific but not well defined categories, everyone's capacity for properly managing dogs is different. Some people should not own one dog. Others can own ten or more with each having a meaningful existance. Training, caring for, working with, knowing inside and out. 

There are people who talk of their red flags and such as to how to recognize a reputable breeder. I have no problem with cautions, but most of these should be flags to ask more questions, not to simply add up and judge a person by.

But I will judge people by whether they are willing to sell puppies to pet stores. No way in the world can that person even be a byb. BYBs in my opinion do not sell to pet stores, only puppy mills. 

Puppy mills often have multiple breeds. They can have just one.
They often have many dogs. They could have just one bitch.
They generally have criminally neglectful conditions. Not always.

Puppy millers only care about the money, not the puppies. They do not care about the puppies. Not at all. They want them out. Today. If they are not sold by x-day, they might euth them by shooting, drowning. They may drop them at a pound. They will sell them to pet stores. 

They may never breed again, but it doesn't change the fact that they did not care about those puppies. 

Nobody that cares about there puppies sells to a pet store. No one. Not one breeder that sells to a pet store cares about the puppies. 

BYBs generally love their dogs. Sometimes they have poor conditions, mud, not as clean as it could be. Sometimes, they are not so good with vet care, might sell a sick puppy, might not get them shots or sell them young. BYBs want the puppies to go to good homes. That generally means pets that will be pets, guard dogs, family dogs, occasionally to another breeder. They want the puppies to be in at least as good a place as they have. BYBs can be anwhere between puppy mill and hobby breeder, but they do not sell to pet stores, because they care about their puppies -- at least until they go to their new homes. When they cross that line, they turn into puppy mills.


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## MaggieRoseLee

chocolat, you are making this way harder than you have to so not sure what the argument is even about.



> It's a person with dozens of intact dogs kept in cages and bred over and over again to make puppies to sell for a profit, in undesirable conditions.


That's about as concise a statement of what we know puppy millers are about and I know you aren't condoning that.

Why you are instead confusing the fact that I may breed my dog to my neighbors dog and sell the puppies for a profit is exactly the same is ridiculous. I would not be a RESPONSIBLE breeder. But it wouldn't make me a puppy miller.

Look at these videos. This is what a puppy miller is. Period. No questions. No arguments. No discussion in my mind that will condone and make it right. And this isn't what a backyard breeder is doing. Or my neighbor. Or some person who just put up a sign on a tree cause their dog 'accidentally' got loose and got pregnant and come look at the puppies in the kitchen rolling around on the floor......

Look at the videos. Address the videos. Discuss the videos. Because they show puppy mills. And that's not what you are pulling into the discussions at all. Watch the videos cause THIS IS WHAT WE ARE TALKING about.

YouTube - PetShopPuppies's Channel

Puppymills - Information about puppy mills and how to shut them down.





 




 




 




 


THESE sites show what we are talking about. These are the conditions we are having problems with. And now that we know better, we will do better, and choose NOT to spend our money in shops that are supporting these puppy mills.


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## selzer

Actually, it is a little refreshing to hear what a non breeder feels about being lumped with puppy mills. 

Most breeders have been or felt like they have been accused of such, particularly because of people who do not know what puppy mills are.

These same people come in and say, Oh, you have cages. When they see a crate in your living room or an ex pen. Uh, well, lady, we do not put diaper on baby puppies and let them run around the house eating electric cords and garbage.

Just wanting a kennel license in Ohio, may require fingerprinting and a background check if SB95 is passed. Think what a slap in the face THAT is. Just because I have a litter of puppies to sell, makes it likely that I have a criminal record??? 

It is interesting to hear how other people feel about this kind of labeling, because we breeders are told that we are being paranoid and that it is no big deal.


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## mazza

chocolat said:


> I apologize for offending you and not being able to express myself in a way that you could understand what I meant. Again, I am sorry.


I am not thick I know exactly what you are saying and exactly what you mean but what does it take for you to understand that you cannot throw accusations at people because they have more than one dog breed. As I have already said there are people on this and other forums that have more than one breed of dog that does not mean anything. I rescued my boys and would do it again in a heartbeat is that wrong? To me that's as bad as saying a couple could only adopt a child from their own race or culture.


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## DJEtzel

chocolat said:


> Interesting concept
> 
> it is wrong to make a profit selling a puppy because?
> 
> always fascinating why it is ok and expected to make a profit selling a cow or a llama, but sell a dog and you should be losing money..lose enough money and you will indeed not be caring properly for your dogs, as you wont have the money needed to keep them fed.
> Foolish to equate profit with whether you care about your dogs or not
> 
> One can't breed dogs "over and over again" you can only breed them approx twice a year and there is scientific studies showing it is actually healthier for the female to be bred each heat and then retired around 5-6 yrs old and spayed. This notion that a commercial breeder is "pumping out puppies" stems more from our own human feelings than actual scientific findings
> ==================================
> Home
> 
> It is Dr.Robert Van Hutchinson
> 
> "As bitches age, they get cysts within their uterus which can obstruct the pathway - a good reason in an older bitch for considering a surgical insemination.
> 
> Conception takes place in the Fallopian Tubes regardless of the method of insemination.
> 
> An older bitch is any bitch over 5, by the way; several of you asked.
> 
> The fertilized eggs are then released into the uterus, but don't implant until day 17-18 after ovulation. So if there are uterine lining problems, we either don't have implantation OR...the placenta, which actually grows into the lining of the uterus, can't grow or be maintained, and the puppies are reabsorbed. It will develop as the night goes on, how to detect some of these problems.
> 
> When a bitch ovulates, whether we breed her, don't breed her, or pretend she's not in season, the progesterone HAMMERS the uterine lining for sixty-plus days.
> 
> The progesterone level is NOT affected by pregnancy. In the cow for example, if the uterus does not get communication from the fertilized egg by day 16, the whole process starts over again. In the bitch, you don't have that luxury.
> 
> Even though the bitch's body produces the progesterone, the progesterone is inflammatory to the uterine lining, so that after a heat cycle, the bitch's uterus is never as healthy as it was before the heat cycle. So we go from a normal uterus... and this start's with the first cycle of her life...to an endometritis to endometrial hyperplasia, which some of you have been asking about - this is when the uterus starts to thicken and we start to get bubbles in the lining of the uterus - these changes affect the uterine lining so much so that eventually the uterus cannot control the bacteria, and the ultimate end stage is pyometritis.
> 
> So, in the bitch... So breeding back to back... or even back to back to back to back....this is WHY it's such a crime we don't have Cheque drops on the market now, to preserve the bitch's uterine lining.
> 
> Several of you have asked when they will be back on the market....one company promised by this spring.
> 
> Pyometritis is a hormonal disease, of which the infection is only secondary. Cheque drops is a wonderful product.... that was Miberolone...a male hormone derivative that could safely delay a bitch coming in season for up to two years. Ovaban is a different product, same as human Megace. These are progesterone products, the exact hormone we are trying to preserve our uteruses from.We should NEVER use ovaban or megace in a bitch we want to breed in the future.
> 
> Cheque drops are NOT progesterone.We could show bitches, we could field trial bitches, and still have a uterus that was only 2-3 years old in a five year old bitch!Cheque drops preserve and promote fertility by preserving the uterine lining. "
> 
> 
> Here is a link to a transcript of an interview
> 
> [URL="http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=1224"]http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=1224[/URL]


I never said it was wrong to make a profit, but the fact that the puppy mills goal is to make money is a trait of them, a way to describe them. They are there to make money off of dogs. A reputable breeder's goal is to further the breed, not make money, and while some can, that's fine, other's can't, still fine, but they're doing the breed justice. Most breeders have secondary jobs or their spouse has a job to bring in money. They aren't relying on the money maid from breeding to breed. It's not that you should be losing money, but will all the costs of shows, health testing, food, etc. it is just very hard to make money off of breeding dogs the correct way. 

I don't think the notion that puppy mills are pumping out puppies is a human feeling at all. They are being bred again and again. I'm not saying they're being bred 10x a year, but every heat they're being bred, far too young, and far too old. Puppy mills don't stop breeding when the bitch is 5 like the article suggests. And they don't wait until 2 or 3 years to breed a GSD either. They do it on the first heat. 

And I don't know a lot about breeding, but breeding every heat just doesn't sound safe to me. The bitch is always pregnant and whelping, and going through so many pregnancies can great reduce her life span, and gives more chance for complications which could prove fatal, in so many ways. 



MaggieRoseLee said:


> That's about as concise a statement of what we know puppy millers are about and I know you aren't condoning that.
> 
> Why you are instead confusing the fact that I may breed my dog to my neighbors dog and sell the puppies for a profit is exactly the same is ridiculous. I would not be a RESPONSIBLE breeder. But it wouldn't make me a puppy miller.
> 
> Look at these videos. This is what a puppy miller is. Period. No questions. No arguments. No discussion in my mind that will condone and make it right. And this isn't what a backyard breeder is doing. Or my neighbor. Or some person who just put up a sign on a tree cause their dog 'accidentally' got loose and got pregnant and come look at the puppies in the kitchen rolling around on the floor......
> 
> Look at the videos. Address the videos. Discuss the videos. Because they show puppy mills. And that's not what you are pulling into the discussions at all. Watch the videos cause THIS IS WHAT WE ARE TALKING about.
> 
> YouTube - PetShopPuppies's Channel
> 
> Puppymills - Information about puppy mills and how to shut them down.
> 
> YouTube - The Truth about Puppy Mills
> 
> YouTube - Puppy Mill Insider Speaks Out
> 
> YouTube - Puppy Mills and Pet Stores
> 
> YouTube - A Tribute
> 
> 
> 
> THESE sites show what we are talking about. These are the conditions we are having problems with. And now that we know better, we will do better, and choose NOT to spend our money in shops that are supporting these puppy mills.


 
I don't think I was saying that bybs and puppy mills are the same because they both make a profit. I said puppy mills had tons of dogs, all intact, kept being bred over and over again until they're dead or useless. A byb that let their dog out and got knocked up is nothing alike, and I know that. They aren't producing 40 litters a year and keeping dogs in cages. They're just ignorant. 

I can't view videos.. sorry.  

What am I pulling into discussion that is not a puppy mill?


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## chocolat

you do realize that in your videos those kennels shown are substandard kennels..right?

you use the phrase "puppy mill" and that could mean any breeder depending upon the person saying and hearing the phrase.

For commercial kennels
It is illegal ALREADY to house dogs in unkept conditions poorly made cages, wires showing, jagged edge, wood that isnt imeprvious to moisture, dirty and filthy
It is illegal ALREADY to not feed them clean, palatable food. Not watering puppies during the winter every 12 hours(if memory serves me correctly) is illegal..already
It is illegal ALREADY to not provide proper grooming..sever matting , sores from atts, etc.. illegal, not providing medical care or seeking profesional veterniary advice when a dog is sick or injured already illegal. There are defined legal ways to euthanize dogs and puppies..so the guy babbling about his bossing hitting puppies in the head..if that isnt the proper legal way in that state, then he is just as culpable in my book for allowing it to happen. He is also just as culpable for not providing the water in the winter or allowing the kennels to be so dirty he needed to wear a face mask. Didnt the kennel owner hire him and others to care for the dogs and kennel?

many of those pictures are from 20 years ago, but even if they were from today, it all shows things that are already illegal. you are correct those kennels are operating outside the law and should be brought into compliance or closed down. I dont disagree with that at all.
If that is what you want to call a "puppy mill" which is a substandard kennel to me, then I am all over agreeing with you.

If you want to call a good kennel who makes a profit a puppy miller..I cant agree with that.
I cant agree with calling a good kennel a puppy miller if they have more than one breed of dog
I will even go as far to say I cant agree with you calling a good kennel a puppy miller just because they dont show or compete , and yet raise good healthy well kept dogs


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Whoop! Here it is! The topic, please let's get back to it! Feel free (ugh, did I say that) to start a new topic if you'd like. This is like Celebrity Jeopardy on SNL!
Jean
Admin



mazza said:


> I have just found out that there are *"pet shops"* in America who are *"ALLOWED" to sell puppies/dogs* can any-one tell me why this is as over here in England all pet shops are not allowed to do so, it was banned many,many years ago for obvious reasons


Love of money?


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## DJEtzel

chocolat said:


> I will even go as far to say I cant agree with you calling a good kennel a puppy miller just because they dont show or compete , and yet raise good healthy well kept dogs


No, THAT'S a byb. Good breeders show and health test, always. 

Do you realize that the only point of breeding there should be is to further the breed? To prevent over-pet population and dogs dumped in shelters?


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## sagelfn

what is a good kennel to you Chocolat?


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## Jax08

Has the whole point of this thread become trying to educate someone who has all the answers and doesn't want to be educated?

hmmm....


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## selzer

No, I think that backyard breeders may be those who have just allowed their dog to get pregnant, they could also have deliberately bred their dog, yes to make money. 

They are doing it for the puppies, to make a few hundred dollars to offset food and vet bills. They are bybs because while they do care about there dogs and they do care about the puppies to some extent that they produce, they are not breeding with any purpose, do not have a plan for their dogs and the progeny. They are not breeding to maintain the breed and to improve their lines. They are not putting a lot of thought into the breeding or the breed itself. 

But they may breed dogs intentionally and specifically because they can sell the puppies.

There is a difference though. 

Puppy mills put the least into their dogs to get the most money out of the puppies. They do not care about their dogs or the puppies they produce. they will sell them for less money than bybs to wholesalers that take the whole litter. 

As for bitches producing for puppy mills beyond five or six, well, my guess is most are burned out and disposed of before them. Cows dry up in a drought. Bitches do not produce well under henous conditions, not for long. They may have eight or ten puppies that first time. six months later four puppies, maybe six the next time, then one or none, then a miss, a singleton, a bullet in the brain. These people are the worst of the worst. They do not care about their dogs, not at all. 

It is really a terrible thing to lump all breeders together. But people who sell to pet stores do not care about their dogs or puppies.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Whoop! Here it is! The topic, please let's get back to it! Feel free (ugh, did I say that) to start a new topic if you'd like. This is like Celebrity Jeopardy on SNL!
> Jean
> Admin
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *mazza*
> _I have just found out that there are *"pet shops"* in America who are *"ALLOWED" to sell puppies/dogs* can any-one tell me why this is as over here in England all pet shops are not allowed to do so, it was banned many,many years ago for obvious reasons_
> 
> Love of money?


Again, topic reminder. 

Does everyone know how to start a thread?

Find the appropriate forum, click on new topic...start typing.


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## selzer

Sorry, I was typing when you were posting that. I'm slow.


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## selzer

Ok, back on topic, do we believe that pet stores are actually supplied by people violating laws that are on the books? 

I actually do. 

So why are we not going after every kennel that is supplying pet stores, investigating them, and nailing them fore EVERY violation? 

If the kennels supplying the puppy mills were state of the art, properly decked out, properly manned, properly vetted, etc., etc. we may not approve of the idea of buying from a pet store, but if others want to get their puppies there, then so be it. 

I just do not believe that we are doing enough to enforce the laws on the books and these places are not being inspected, or shut down until things are so henous that it makes a big news story.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

And why don't places have it in their zoning and codes that there be no places selling pets? I think it would be pretty easy to add, how did England do it? 

The two pet stores I have seen here - one was shut down and the village it was in passed an ordinance when they realized the back story of the pet store animal, and the other is still going on, selling illegal animals even (exotics). Not sure how that works! 

Do they also have reptile stores in England and if so is that the same type of situation? Is it the same here? THere is one of those locally - creeps me out, not a fan, so not because of any policies or procedures, because I don't know what those are.


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## chocolat

selzer said:


> Ok, back on topic, do we believe that pet stores are actually supplied by people violating laws that are on the books?
> 
> I actually do.
> 
> So why are we not going after every kennel that is supplying pet stores, investigating them, and nailing them fore EVERY violation?
> 
> If the kennels supplying the puppy mills were state of the art, properly decked out, properly manned, properly vetted, etc., etc. we may not approve of the idea of buying from a pet store, but if others want to get their puppies there, then so be it.
> 
> I just do not believe that we are doing enough to enforce the laws on the books and these places are not being inspected, or shut down until things are so henous that it makes a big news story.


 
Now that I can totally agree with!


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## GSDSunshine

I was not born in the deep south, but was raised here. I know this is a little off topic, but it does tie into the pet store puppies. in the deep south there is a disease that has infected a lot of people, including my family, my neighbors, friends thousands of people that live here..... but I refused to be infected by it. Many people the South have a different way of viewing animals, of viewing dogs. They are kept outside and happy to live on a chain, they don't require more than just a dog house and a bowl of water and whatever food is on sale at the winn-dixie that week. They don't need to go to the vet on a regular basis and don't need vaccinations or heartworm. Many dogs in the south are allowed to roam the neighborhood, noone neuters or spays their animals and they are allowed to populate as they please, countless dogs are in shelters because of it, thousands of dogs are heartworm positive, and many die from lack of treatment. There are no regulations or laws that will change how people see their animals. No law will make people realized that you don't have a right to own an animal if you can't take care of it. If all you can do is feed it once a week, that's not enough. it needs vet care, it should have more of a live than on a 6' chain "guarding" your property. Female dogs don't need to be bred to have their life fulfilled..... The only way to STOP all of this is to change the way people think. You have to rid the south of this ignorance so many people have. i'm not saying everyone is like this, especially not on this board. Nor am I saying this doesn't occur else where. But until enough people stand up and say enough, until the general public cries out in disgust, nothing will change. 

The same thing applies to Puppies mills, Pet stores can't sell puppies from millers if the millers don't exist and the millers can't survive if no one purchases a puppy from the stores they supply. So I also don't think they need to place more regulations on the puppy millers because it won't change anything. The millers will still break the rules, will still stick together to fight it, and the bottom line is..... no matter how much you polish a pile of crap, at the end its still just shiny poop. When people spread the word and sales in pet stores halt.... the puppy millers will suffocate.... only when the general populations ignorance regarding puppy mills is gone, will change come. Change doesn't come from laws, it comes from the people. It comes from exposure to the truth. 


People that buy puppies are buying for different reasons, they might have always gotten their puppies growing up from pet stores, or they might not know how to locate a proper and responsible breeder. They may have liked the price, or just got it on a whim. Most people are ignorant. They don't know why puppies form these places are bad.... they see cute healthy puppies and think what is the problem? 

The problem is that they don't see all the step of the miller process prior to the puppy getting to his pet store kennel. 


It starts with a young female.

She is placed in a cage with many other females just like her.

She comes into heat before she is even a year old and is mated with a male. Her body hasn't even finish maturing yet. 

She hasn't seen a vet yet, and hasn't left her cage since her arrival. Her paws start to ache from the wire on the bottom of her cage so her feces can fall through. 

Her body swells from her puppies growing inside. Still no vet, and no one has come to play with her or give her rubs. She is so thirty today but her water bowl was forgotten today so she goes without.

She goes into labor on the cage floor, she has no blankets and no one is around to help her, in her panic, a puppy is lost. Luckily 6 more survived. The humans walk past and see a dead puppy but do nothing, her cage isn't on schedule to be cleaned for 2 more weeks. 

She tried to take care of her babies as best as she could but the human spots one and decides that it is too sick. Really it is just a black with white spots and the human kills it because she knows that the white with brown spots is what is popular right now. 

Her babies have their puppy teeth now and the humans handle them now for the first time ever. They reach in grab them and stuff them in travel carriers. 

Now she is alone, just her and 5 other lonely and wasted mothers. They might have any number of problems. No blankets, no solid ground, or they have a solid ground but its covered in feces, or under water, they might have sores in between their pads from walking their whole life in cages. Their nails curl under, their coats are matted and stained. They might have goop seeming from their eyes and ears, or have open wounds from fights living in a cage with 4 other bitches.

When someone buys a puppy from a pet store they don't see all the pain and misery the mother pup had to endure for it to be alive. Even if every puppy sold in a pet shop was healthy, I still wouldn't buy one.... Because the price that mother had to pay, and still pay so that they can make a profit from her it way too high.


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## mazza

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> And why don't places have it in their zoning and codes that there be no places selling pets? I think it would be pretty easy to add, how did England do it?
> 
> The two pet stores I have seen here - one was shut down and the village it was in passed an ordinance when they realized the back story of the pet store animal, and the other is still going on, selling illegal animals even (exotics). Not sure how that works!
> 
> Do they also have reptile stores in England and if so is that the same type of situation? Is it the same here? THere is one of those locally - creeps me out, not a fan, so not because of any policies or procedures, because I don't know what those are.


Over here in England us "common" folk along with breeders lobbied local M.P.'s and then parliament and the two biggest reasons, firstly a reputable breeder would never "supply" a pet shop with pups because of the second reason who knew where the pups would be going after being purchased, and basically every-one just kept on and on until it was banned and that was so long ago now it feels strange to think that it ever was allowed in the first place. Pet shops in England are restricted on what live stock they are allowed to sell, small birds i.e. budgies and goldfish/pond fish you also have to be an adult to purchase these from the stores. I am by no means saying that we are perfect FAR FROM IT but over here if we are not happy about something we just won't shut up about it until something is done. Does that sound to simplistic? Maybe but it works


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## Dainerra

I think, sometimes, the pendulum has swung the other way. Most people know about puppy mills, what they are and how the dogs live. People buying from pet stores these days fall into 2 categories: 1 they believe the lies that the dogs are from breeders, not mills(employees even give out names) 2 they want to save the dog. Category 1 just needs some further education. 2? I'm not so sure. They know all the horrors, all the reasons not to.

The ignorance Kira talks about is pretty much everywhere, though concentrated in rural areas. Dogs are more than livestock, but still animals so they live outside. Some of those people do LOVE their dogs, just as much as we do. But to them, dogs are DOGS and should be treated that way. As for the vet issue, they are the same way about themselves. A vet(doctor) is someone you see when you are on death's door and all the home remedies haven't helped. They aren't doing it out of neglect, just bad reasoning. 

As far as catching the kennels who are breaking current laws, it comes down to one simple factor, $$. Like all aspects of life, people want it down, but no one wants to pay for it. There are a handful of inspectors for the entire country. They cover dairy farms, feed lots, puppy mills and any other place that raises animals. Of course their primary focus is on the places that produce our food, but even then they are primarily reactionary. The manpower isn't there to even address complaints, forget being proactive!

Here, people have been complaining about lack of police. The county is over 500sq miles, but only 3 cops are on duty at night. Needless to say, response time can be a couple hours! People petitioned, complained, wrote letters to the editor demanding that more officers be added. Fine, the sheriff was very willing to do that (actually has been trying to get permission to do that for years!) What came of it? nothing!! 
The "Friends of the Taxpayer" (anti-tax group) let the cat out of the bag. These newly hired deputies had the audacity to want a paycheck! So, here it is 5 years later, still only 3 deputies on duty at night.

The moral of the story is, yes, more enforcement is whats needed, not more laws. However, people need to step up and say that they are willing to pay for that. Enforcement costs money, writing more laws is free! Which do you think is more popular, both with public and with politicians? Saying you are raising taxes gets you voted out of office; feel-good meaningless rhetoric makes you look efficient without having to use the dreaded "T" word


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## MaggieRoseLee

> you use the phrase "puppy mill" and that could mean any breeder depending upon the person saying and hearing the phrase.


NO, that's not true. Not what's been posted. A puppy mill is a VERY specific place that is ONLY breeding for tons of puppies (any breed) to ONLY make (money from the sale of puppies) with no real interest in health/temperment/following thru of dogs after they are sold TO PET STORES.


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## selzer

MRL, I think a lot of people have a much broader definition of puppy mills. Some people have gone so far as to say anyone with more than a certain number of dogs or litters is a puppy mill. 

Some people do not differentiate between puppy mills and bybs. And some people do not believe ANYONE could breed responsibly when there are dogs dying in shelters so EVERY breeder is a puppy mill. 

I have my definition of puppy mill -- someone who does not care about their dogs or the puppies they produce, put the least in to get the most out, will drop puppies at pounds, euthanize them, or sell them to wholesalers or pet stores because they do not care. They do not have to be producing tons of puppies, though most are. 

If you have six bitches in pens in your back yard, and you keep them clean, feed them and give them water daily, and keep the groomed acceptably, breed them intentionally, raise the litters and sell the litter wholesale to a broker/hunte corp/pet store intermediary. Than you are a puppy mill. 

Because you just cannot do that and care about them. It is not possible. You can do the job -- 45 minutes per day, clean the pens, feed and water, brush one out. That does not mean you care about them or the puppies they produce. In fact, I would think that people would want to provide a level of care, to limit disease and mortality rates of the puppies. 

Decent breeders will not sell to middlemen because they have no say in how that puppy is transported, fed, cared for, and to whom it is sold.


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