# My GSD bit my lab



## Bridget (Apr 5, 2004)

Heidi attacked my black lab over a frisbee. She had hold of Cori under Cori's front leg and I had a terrible time getting her to let go. Cori has three punctures in her armpit and on her chest. They don't seem to be deep and I don't believe she needs to go to the emergency clinic. I cleaned them with peroxide and put three antibiotic ointment on the wounds. Is this right? Is there something else I should do?

What is the appropriate reaction towards Heidi? She is in her crate right now. Also, if this happens again, what is the best way to get her to let go? I yelled at her to "leave it," but she just held on like she didn't even hear me. I pulled on her collar and resorted to beating her with the frisbee and she finally let go. What should I have done? Please help.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

I would take all toys away and never play with toys with the two of them together. I personally would have beaten the crap out of Heidi for not listening to me and continuing to bite, but as of now, there is nothing you can or should do to her. Be very careful reintroducing the two of them. It's very possible they will be just fine as long as you keep her stimulation level down - as in no toy playing. If she still shows aggression to the lab, you are probably going to have to keep them separated for a long time.

So long as the wounds aren't deep and you keep an eye on them for infection, I would keep up as you are doing with them.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think when you are in a situation where one dog is harming the other, you do what you can to separate them. A blanket thrown over the works well.

When we had a dog fight here, the vet asked me about puncture wounds around the neck because the windpipe can be punctured. I would watch for infection and put antibiotic ointment on it if you don't think she needs to go the vet. You might want to get an oral antibiotic for her.

Sounds like she was resource guarding? What exactly were the circumstances leading to the fight?


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Elaine said:


> I personally would have beaten the crap out of Heidi for not listening to me and continuing to bite, but as of now, there is nothing you can or should do to her.


Wow, this doesn't have the propensity to get you bit. Why would you beat your dog for not listening to you in a situation like this? She's reacting out of a guarding behavior which isn't her fault. 

This just sounds like it'd get you bit. 

OP, instead of beating your dog if this ever happens again, ask for a drop it or leave it on the chance that it may work, and grab your dog's back legs when she lets go to back her up real quick, then grab her and crate her. Doing this gives you room in case your dog was still in a very aggressive mood and wanted to redirect on you so that she couldn't. Other than that, pick up toys and don't let them play with toys together. I've personally never had an issue re-introducing dogs that have bitten each other over guarding behavior as long as the trigger wasn't there, but it should be a slow, calm, gradual re-intro. Good luck.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Bridget said:


> *I yelled at her to "leave it," but she just held on like she didn't even hear me*. I pulled on her collar and resorted to beating her with the frisbee and she finally let go. What should I have done? Please help.


My understanding is when dogs go into "attack" mode, or prey mode, that often they *can't* hear us. I do agree with DJ that by beating the dog that you could end up getting bit if the dog should redirect their aggression on you. However, you had a situation where the GSD was not hearing you and had a firm hold on the lab. Dragging them out would not have done any good. I think you did what you had to do.

You could try a blanket, spray water on them with a hose, etc. I've reached right into a dog pile and grabbed the 4th dog by a leg and drug him out of the pile. If I had gotten bit then I would have dealt with it but our three dogs were mauling him and he needed help now. I think in the heat of the moment you do whatever you have to do to break it up. If I had to beat them with a chair to separate them then I would have.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I don't know if there IS a safe way to break up a dog fight - what I would do is never again put the two dogs in a situation where there is competition over a single resource. If they can't play nice - they don't get to play at all. 

Play with them individually - always have Heidi under control. I have in the past with dogs that did not get along, taken them on off-leash walks where one was on leash, the other carried a stick - both are busy and can't start anything. 
Would I have prefered that they both were off leash and free to run and play? Yes, but if a fight or scuffle breaks out, 100% my fault for putting them in a situation where there is competition for resources and/or my attention. So up to me to manage each situation to avoid any potential problems.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

A couple nights ago 5-1/2 year old Bruiser went after 10 year old Mac (reason unknown ... toys/resources were not involved). It happend in a doorway, Mac was walking thru and Bruiser got up and went after him. Anyway, I was sitting on the couch about 36" from the fight/skrimmish. I started yelling and I just happened to have a dinner pan close to me so I threw it at Bruiser's head as hard as I could ... it bounced off, got his attention and the fight stopped. Neither was injured


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

When a dog is in true 'fight mode' they do not hear you. You are not as important to them as the other animal.

Get a break stick (if you do not have a dog who redirects). Learn to use it. 

Do NOT just try to rip the dogs apart or pull them apart, you will do much more damage. Learn how to separate dogs, keep leashes around the house/yard so you can grab one if needed.. if you HAVE to, like if you have a dog who redirects (can't use a breakstick) and it won't let go, put a slip lead around it's neck and choke it out. They have to let go if they can't breath. 

Water and blankets can work with two dogs who are not completely into it, when my bulldog was very young and got into a scrap with my GSD bitch a pail of water in her face broke her off, but she immediately went for another hold.. if she was mature that wouldn't have made her flinch.. 

Also, beating a dog who's in a fight does not help... I wouldn't expect any of mine to redirect on me if I did, but that could make the dog even worse, making her think you're attacking her TOO. And she might fight harder. Dogs are animals, don't feel hurt if they ignore you when they're fighting another animal.


As I said, with a dog like her choking will break them off, HOWEVER, be prepared for her to snap at you, GSDs were not bred not to redirect on people and she very well may.. MY bitch did, nothing serious, but she nipped a human while fighting. 

Keep them apart while you're not there. Keep all resources up while they're together, and just be prepared for it to happen again.. When my bulldog (the aggressor) has my GSD but the neck and I had no breakstick on me I grabbed the bulldogs collar, put her neck/shoulders between my legs and twisted the collar so it tightened and she had to let go to get a breath... I then pushed the GSD away with my foot and snapped the bulldog's front end off the ground, until the GSD had backed far enough off that I could take the bulldog away.

Dogs fight. The appropriate reaction to her is nothing really.. she did nothing wrong. Break them up and clean them up, if you want to keep them together introduce them and be ready to break them off of each other. Beating a dog who's fighting, or correcting one after you break them up, will help none..

Good luck with them.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

I realize choking sounds harsh. But them fighting longer is worse.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Castlemaid said:


> I don't know if there IS a safe way to break up a dog fight


Wheelbarrow method is safe.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

It may be safer but when you are dealing with animals, nothing is 100% safe and it is not going to do much good unless you have two people to break up the fight. And, as APBTLove pointed out, if one dog is latched on to the other dog then it is going to cause further damage.


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## Bridget (Apr 5, 2004)

It happened so fast, I'm not quite sure the circumstances. We play frisbee outside all the time and they each claim their own frisbee, but often switch. Apparently, Heidi decided she wanted the pink one and Cori got to it first. 

These all sound like good ideas to break up a fight. The blanket thing is good for me to keep in mind in the house. The pan solution is interesting, guess the startling approach might have worked. I did briefly consider grabbing Heidi's back legs, but (and this sounds silly now) she has HD and her hips are sore; I wasn't concerned with hurting her, as she was hurting Cori, but I think I had a cowardly moment and was pretty sure I would get bit if I pulled her back legs. Probably she would have let go faster though. We will play separately now. 

I intended to bathe everybody today. Will this be ok for Cori? She doesn't seem to be in pain. I thought maybe the tea tree oil shampoo?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

The blanket does work.  Something happened while I was folding a sheet and Jax and Sierra got into it. I just dropped the sheet over their heads and their reaction was hysterical. it was like "hey...who turned off the lights?"

tea tree is an antiseptic so it shouldn't hurt her. Just be very, very careful of infection. I might call the vet and just ask for one as a precaution.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> It may be safer but when you are dealing with animals, nothing is 100% safe and it is not going to do much good unless you have two people to break up the fight. And, as APBTLove pointed out, if one dog is latched on to the other dog then it is going to cause further damage.


If only one dog is the one fighting it does wonders, and all you have to do is wait for the dog to let go and pull back and it's a done deal. That is how it's used, anyway.



Bridget said:


> These all sound like good ideas to break up a fight. The blanket thing is good for me to keep in mind in the house. The pan solution is interesting, guess the startling approach might have worked. I did briefly consider grabbing Heidi's back legs, but (and this sounds silly now) she has HD and her hips are sore; I wasn't concerned with hurting her, as she was hurting Cori, but I think I had a cowardly moment and was pretty sure I would get bit if I pulled her back legs. Probably she would have let go faster though. We will play separately now.


If you grab the back legs and start moving backwards as soon as the dog releases their grip and spin in a wide circle with them, there's no way that they can bite you. Grabbing collars/scruff or hitting/kicking them in the face leaves a LOT more room for redirected aggression. 



Jax08 said:


> The blanket does work.  Something happened while I was folding a sheet and Jax and Sierra got into it. I just dropped the sheet over their heads and their reaction was hysterical. it was like "hey...who turned off the lights?"


This is a similar good example of the water method APBT described. If the dogs are in a minor scuffle water or a sheet may work, but if they are **** bent on destroying each other, it won't do a thing except put YOU in the dark as to what's happening.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Well DJ. I"m sure you have lots of experience with dogs but I don't think you know everything. Throwing something over them does work. Sorry...been there, done that and I know for a fact it does.


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## Miikkas mom (Dec 21, 2009)

Elaine said:


> I personally would have beaten the crap out of Heidi for not listening to me and continuing to bite, but as of now, there is nothing you can or should do to her.


Elaine,

I always look forward to hearing your advice, however, I must respectfully disagree with you here. Maybe I’m taking your words too literally – would you really “beat the crap” out of your dog? :nono:

I would NEVER beat my dogs – regardless of what they did. I think there are better ways to solve issues. I think hitting or beating a dog can just cause him/her new issues.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Something about the blanket method, it does work, but be CAREFUL getting near the dog's head if it's under the blanket.. an a-hole I knew got his 10yo daughter involved in breaking up two adult american bulldog bitches. They put a blanket over them and one of them bit the girl's leg through the blanket, it's been many years and she's still got substantial scarring.. The dog can't see who or what it's biting when using the blanket, so you have to keep that in mind.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> Well DJ. I"m sure you have lots of experience with dogs but I don't think you know everything. Throwing something over them does work. Sorry...been there, done that and I know for a fact it does.


She wasn't saying it didn't, she said in a serious fight it won't.. especially is high-drive or fight bred dogs are involved.. Water worked for me once, the next time with the same dogs (older dogs then) she snorted and started shaking more violently when the water hit her. Never tried a blanket myself because I had to be able to keep the dog's from shaking each other and it would be hard to do with a blanket over them.. can't see what they're doing.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

APBTLove said:


> She wasn't saying it didn't, she said in a serious fight it won't.. especially is high-drive or fight bred dogs are involved.


 That has been my experience with most of the so-called "tried and true" methods of breaking up fights. Water didn't stop them, pulling their back legs didn't stop them, loud noises didn't stop them, throwing things over their heads didn't stop them. They didn't even see to acknowledge any of it, just kept their grips on each other's head/neck. 



APBTLove said:


> Something about the blanket method, it does work, but be CAREFUL getting near the dog's head if it's under the blanket.. an a-hole I knew got his 10yo daughter involved in breaking up two adult american bulldog bitches.






APBTLove said:


> When a dog is in true 'fight mode' they do not hear you. You are not as important to them as the other animal.
> 
> Get a break stick (if you do not have a dog who redirects). Learn to use it.
> 
> Do NOT just try to rip the dogs apart or pull them apart, you will do much more damage. Learn how to separate dogs, keep leashes around the house/yard so you can grab one if needed.. if you HAVE to, like if you have a dog who redirects (can't use a breakstick) and it won't let go, put a slip lead around it's neck and choke it out. They have to let go if they can't breath.


 Both good suggestions. 

I have also had good luck with pulling the dogs to a door or gate and closing it between them. In my case, that was almost necessary if I was alone because both dogs were equally after each other so I had to get something between them to keep them apart once I broke them up. 

Another thing to consider is having SprayShield handy. It is a citronella spray that comes in a canister like pepper spay. It won't work on all dogs but might be worth a try. 



APBTLove said:


> Also, beating a dog who's in a fight does not help... I wouldn't expect any of mine to redirect on me if I did, but that could make the dog even worse, making her think you're attacking her TOO. And she might fight harder.


 Very true. If the dog(s) are so into the fight that you can't easily break them up, beating the aggressor will likely just led to more injuries on the other dog. Dogs in the middle of a fight are not really capable of learning anything (not that beating is a good way to teach them). They are in a highly aroused state with lots of adrenal being dumped into their bodies.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I just saw you HD comment. I'd be careful with letting them play together. It could have been that at the same time they went for the same frisbee your HD dog also twisted something and it kind of set her off. Dogs in pain react a lot differently that they normally would.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I would get the lab on some antibiotics. Punctures are the hardest to clean and usually infection sets in.

I agree with grabbing by the back legs to separate, beating on the dog will probably just ramp it up all the more and get you bit in the process.


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## JessWelsch (Oct 2, 2010)

What about the use of a bite stick? ...Jordan and I carry one in our bag - incase someone else bitesher - she doesnt show any aggression (not even play) anymore. But I figure it is less harmful than pulling them off, or possibly getting bit yourself... just an idea.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Well, if two dogs are fighting, is it really easy to run into the house, grab the bitestick and try to separate? 
If you have on on hand right then, that would be best. 
This was an attack that the OP had no idea would happen. Grabbing by the legs immediately will cause less damage than letting an attack go on longer while you are running around looking for your bitestick.


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## Bridget (Apr 5, 2004)

OK, stupid question...what is a bite stick? Where do you buy one? How is it used? 

My trainer swears by using a broom, the old fashioned straw kind and shoving it between two fighting dogs. She always keeps one handy. I had forgotten about that.


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

Pit Bull Rescue Central




As another poster pointed out to me somewhere most people don't keep actual breaksticks around because it is 'fighting paraphernalia'. That orange thing I have seen at Home Depot/Lowes near the spools of line/wire. Or sand down a hammer.

Heres a question-how many people with multiple dogs(2+) have had to break up a fight within their own pack? How many people keep breaksticks or some version of it? I think this question merits its own thread.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> Well DJ. I"m sure you have lots of experience with dogs but I don't think you know everything. Throwing something over them does work. Sorry...been there, done that and I know for a fact it does.


I didn't say I did know everything. 

But I do know (like someone else mentioned as well) that if the dogs want to kill each other, water and blankets won't work. Been there, done that. 



AgileGSD said:


> That has been my experience with most of the so-called "tried and true" methods of breaking up fights. Water didn't stop them, pulling their back legs didn't stop them, loud noises didn't stop them, throwing things over their heads didn't stop them. They didn't even see to acknowledge any of it, just kept their grips on each other's head/neck.


To be fair, the wheelbarrow method isn't supposed to stop fighting dogs, it's supposed to give you a safe way to seperate them once they let go on their own to re-adjust without getting yourself hurt.


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## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

When there has been a fight in our household between dogs I’ve always found it better to take a proactive stance rather than to prepare for the “next” fight. 

In my experience, most fights are heat-of-the-moment type things and you won’t always have a blanket, water, stick, broom, etc. within easy fast access. You do what you have to, to break up the fight. Nothing wrong with being prepared but I’ve found that in situations like this (totally unexpected and out of the blue) you have to think fast and act fast. Running into the other room or into the house to get something doesn’t work - you grab whatever is closest as a tool to aid in breaking up the fight and sometimes there is nothing so you use yourself. 

For me it works better to try and prevent any future fights. What I would do is analyze in my head what caused the fight and remove that temptation to fight over that “thing” again in the future. For example I have 2 males that got in a fight once over food. Now they are fed in separate rooms. They get along great as long as there is no food involved. In your case you know it was the Frisbee or toy, I would not allow them to have toys together. Play with them each individually and let them each have time away with the Frisbee. When you’re done playing with the Frisbee put it up. 

If they don’t have a history of violent fights, I wouldn’t assume they will now begin fighting over every thing. I’d probably keep an eye on them for a few days. You can usually see the fight coming and divert them before they go at it by either removing the “thing” or separating the dogs for a few moments.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

That is what I do with my two females, diffuse the situation immediately. 
They've never gotten into it seriously,but the body posturing and growls have happened and I redirect them.
It only happens occasionally, and I don't think they do this when I'm not around(it may be resource guarding of me/jealousy) so I'm not worried about leaving them alone together. 
Though I won't be surprised if they ever do get into it.


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## Bridget (Apr 5, 2004)

Thanks for showing how this is used. The break stick looks like a regular tent spike that we have for camping.


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## Baersmama (Jun 15, 2010)

OMG... that "break-stick" looks like you could end up poking a dog's eye out -- or end up with a massive dental bill. Not for me!!
Our pack only consists of two. Thankfully they have never been in a fight. (Max - he will take a lot from Sadie..... she likes to act like a boss, and he lets her!) I try to intervene, and prevent situations like this between my two, and with my dogs and others. (if things seem to be escalating.) Occasionally my daughter's two pits are over. I keep a good eye on what is happening. Her female can be very protective of any toy - so most get picked up. Hopefully I am never in this situation. (I think I will go with the adage... an ounce of prevention....)


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Baersmama said:


> OMG... that "break-stick" looks like you could end up poking a dog's eye out -- or end up with a massive dental bill. Not for me!!
> Our pack only consists of two. Thankfully they have never been in a fight. (Max - he will take a lot from Sadie..... she likes to act like a boss, and he lets her!) I try to intervene, and prevent situations like this between my two, and with my dogs and others. (if things seem to be escalating.) Occasionally my daughter's two pits are over. I keep a good eye on what is happening. Her female can be very protective of any toy - so most get picked up. Hopefully I am never in this situation. (I think I will go with the adage... an ounce of prevention....)


You would rather have a dead dog than a dental bill?


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## Melgrj7 (Jul 5, 2009)

Smelling salts also work great to get a dog to let go.


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## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

Baersmama said:


> OMG... that "break-stick" looks like you could end up poking a dog's eye out -- or end up with a massive dental bill. Not for me!!
> Our pack only consists of two. Thankfully they have never been in a fight. (Max - he will take a lot from Sadie..... she likes to act like a boss, and he lets her!) *I try to intervene, and prevent situations like this between my two, and with my dogs and others.* (if things seem to be escalating.) Occasionally my daughter's two pits are over. I keep a good eye on what is happening. Her female can be very protective of any toy - so most get picked up. Hopefully I am never in this situation. *(I think I will go with the adage... an ounce of prevention....)*





DJEtzel said:


> You would rather have a dead dog than a dental bill?


What? How did you get that out of her post? 

According to how I read what she's saying - I think she'd rather have neither.  Sounds like she'd like to *prevent a fight* from ever happening in the first place.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Vinnie said:


> What? How did you get that out of her post?
> 
> According to how I read what she's saying - I think she'd rather have neither.  Sounds like she'd like to *prevent a fight* from ever happening in the first place.


I also got the impression that she would rather have a fight and break it up with some other means rather than the break stick.  I think it would be obvious that nobody would want a fight but I would hope also realize that sometimes one may occur despite our best intentions and actions, then the question is HOW does one break it up?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

My two females would separate if I shot a gun or fireworks off. They are so freaked out about that or storms they would quit immediately! 
My male(who is not reactive or aggressive) would not be phased by any noises at all.


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## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

codmaster said:


> I also got the impression that she would rather have a fight and break it up with some other means rather than the break stick. I think it would be obvious that nobody would want a fight but I would hope also realize that sometimes one may occur despite our best intentions and actions, then the question is HOW does one break it up?


Yep, that's true. 

But just because someone doesn't want to use a breakstick doesn't mean they want a dead dog. 

If the breakstick looks scary, there are other options already discussed in this thread on "how" to break a dog fight up.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Baersmama said:


> OMG... that "break-stick" looks like you could end up poking a dog's eye out -- or end up with a massive dental bill. Not for me!!
> Our pack only consists of two. Thankfully they have never been in a fight. (Max - he will take a lot from Sadie..... she likes to act like a boss, and he lets her!) I try to intervene, and prevent situations like this between my two, and with my dogs and others. (if things seem to be escalating.) Occasionally my daughter's two pits are over. I keep a good eye on what is happening. Her female can be very protective of any toy - so most get picked up. Hopefully I am never in this situation. (I think I will go with the adage... an ounce of prevention....)


 With APBTs visiting your house, knowing how to use a break stick could be considered an ounce of prevention. The rule of thumb for APBTs with other dogs is to never trust them not to fight.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I just have to say that I live in a city with a lot of pits (what city doesn't have a lot of pits?) and I have seen and heard of far more dog aggressive gsds than dog aggressive pits. There are several pits in my neighborhood and they are total mushes with other dogs. There's a pit x husky in my kitchen right now and she is the most passive dog you could ever meet.

I can think of two cases locally and one on this board from a couple of weeks ago where a dog killed another dog. Case #1 was a gsd, case #2 was a Newfoundland and case #3 was a gsd. And every day there is a post on this board about dog x dog aggression. But I would never say that gsds are dog killers and can't be trusted not to fight or are dog aggressive because it simply isn't true. The fact is that there are way too many poorly bred gsds and pits out there and poorly educated owners who do not train or properly care for their dogs and they help create negative associations with both breeds.


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

I would like to add undersocialized and illbreed smaller dogs display the same issues-not just working dogs. But fifi and fufu don't get bad raps because hey, what sort of damage can a 5 pound horror do.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

BowWowMeow said:


> The fact is that there are way too many poorly bred gsds and pits out there and poorly educated owners who do not train or properly care for their dogs and they help create negative associations with both breeds.


 But it isn't an incorrect characteristic or the result of bad breeding or bad training for APBTs to show willingness to fight with other dogs. It is incorrect for Goldens, Clumbers and Beagles to show a willingness to fight, though some have incorrect temperaments and do anway. This trait only helps create negative associations for APBTs because of irresponsible ownership. 

* "Never leave Pit Bulls alone and unsupervised with other animals. * Even though you think they are the best of friends, it’s better to be safe than sorry! All it takes is one time for a fight to break out. This is especially true with multiple Pit Bulls in one household. Don’t take any chances and remember this saying… *Never trust your Pit Bull not to fight another dog… ever!" Pet PitBull - Info

"**Never leave pit bulls alone with other dogs (or any animal)*. Even if you're dog gets along great 99.9% of the time with other animals the Pit Bull is known for animal aggression and it is possible something will happen. A good piece of advice I received a long time ago was, Never trust your Pit Bull *not* to fight." 10 Tips to Remember for Responsible Pit Bull Owners

"As responsible pit bulls owners, we must understand and respect our breed’s heritage, just as Golden Retriever owners or Border Collie owners should respect their breed’s heritage. This means understanding that our beloved dogs may be intolerant of other dogs. ... To sum up, PBRC’s position is this: dog aggression is a behavior found in every breed, but because of their breed history, pit bulls might be less tolerant of other dogs. As pit bull owners, it is our responsibility to understand our dogs, put them in a position to succeed, and keep them safe." Pit Bull Rescue Central


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## Bridget (Apr 5, 2004)

Well said. 

Jane, I had to laugh, because if I shot off a gun, there is no doubt it would have made Heidi drop Cori, so seems like a good idea. However, Heidi is SO GUN SHY that I'm pretty sure she would drop Cori, jump the fence, and be in the next county!


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