# Shock Collars



## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

What is everyone's thoughts on age with a shock collar? I have a 6 month old that is a total mouth piece and literally you can't get his attention while he is going crazy at the neighbours dog. He's not aggressive, just wants the dog to come say hi, but she is not interested. 

No negative comments please. Constructive criticism is one thing, but I will not take negative. 
Thank you


----------



## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

If prong didn't work, move up to the shock collar. I think if a prong used correctly (harsh enough for the situation) should get the job done. 

I have heard from a trainer that uses them and she said GSDs respond well to even the lowest settings. I have not used it, but would have no issues using whatever tool to get the dog to comply. I would ensure getting a lesson or two from a good trainer though...

I would also not skimp on a e-collar. Some of them are crap and with the thick neck fur our dogs have, you need a good one.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

1. What is the behavior you want to see?
2. How does the dog know this? 

While this is about aggressive behavior, it gives a lot of the things you want to do when teaching your dog what you want. Preventing Dog Bites: Stop Dog Aggression Before It Starts | Animal Behavior and Medicine Blog | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS scroll down to training dogs more appropriate behaviors if you only want to read a little. She just had a very clear way of explaining, but really that's the basic idea - you wan to make sure your dog knows what you want, the clarity is important, and you can do it with very mild aversives - tone of voice, ignoring/removing attention to guide the dog, and then a lot of rewarding for the good when they are doing what you want to see. 

Look at That (LAT) may also be something you can use, but I think first your dog needs to know what it is supposed to look like when he sees another dog. In fact, if you have a friend with a very neutral approach to seeing other dogs, let your dog watch that dog. I do this with my dogs and fosters - take them out with my dogs who don't want to interact with other dogs - they just want to walk by, nod hello, no touching, not real "doggy" behavior of sniffing and sizing up, and the others pick it up a lot faster. 

And once they are quiet for greeting, and get that reward of possibly greeting the other dog, depending on what the other owner says, I have a 3-5 second rule - they don't need to interact for longer than that if it's not a buddy of theirs. I don't want to deal with someones' dog that long anyway.


----------



## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

eddie1976E said:


> If prong didn't work, move up to the shock collar. I think if a prong used correctly (harsh enough for the situation) should get the job done.


no eddie. the Ecollar takes the place of a prong when out of reach off leash.


----------



## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

I guess I should clarify, it's when he is in the backyard, he is fine while walking etc. 

I've used shock collars on many of different dogs, I was more so wondering about age.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Well, it would be the same kind of thing re training. I think it's too young because you have a young dog who is at the age where they are ready to really learn, and a great time for teaching using all sorts of methods, but mostly ones that are fun for the puppy.


----------



## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

scarfish said:


> no eddie. the Ecollar takes the place of a prong when out of reach off leash.


If the dog is within reach (like in my yard) I would use the prong and see if it works. If not, the e-collar for long distance corrections. If this was my dog I would try to get his attention with something he loves. Food, ball, anything to get his attention. If all else fails, then I would go to more of a corrective measure. Any tool that gets me the results I need.


----------



## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

my dog was also spun up enough that no treat or toy would get his attention from another dog. We waited until a year old and moved to a prong. He his ability to cap of his crazy behavior is improving with age. I don't like to yank his prong if I can use some other modifier. Often I stand in his field of vision. I keep changing position as he moves his head until he finally get the idea that he is not going anywhere until he calms down and looks at me.
It is still a work in progress. Each improvement comes in small increments. 

I'm not anti good e collar work. I've never used one. Personally I'd wait a bit longer, until your pup can really understand what is going on and has the capacity to change his behavior. Of course, in the meantime do what you can to keep showing him that playing with the neighbor's dog is not an option. 

by the way, we have a small dog down our street who wants nothing with our big bundle of happiness and are working through the same thing.


----------



## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

bob_barker said:


> I guess I should clarify, it's when he is in the backyard, he is fine while walking etc.
> 
> I've used shock collars on many of different dogs, I was more so wondering about age.


IMO prong collars are good at 4-6 months and so would ecollars. however i say it has more to do with training level than age when it comes to ecollars. a 2 year old with no training won't understand why he's getting nicked. a well trained and used to prong 4 month old with a good trainer will be fine.


----------



## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

Thanks everyone  

I've tried, toys, treats, food bowls, etc. to not such luck.


----------



## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

It's too young in my opinion. At this age you should be interrupting the behavior before it gets to a point that dog tunes you out. Keep him on a line, interrupt and redirect. 

IMHO this would not be the appropriate way to use an ecollar. I don't think they should be a substitute for training or lack of control. If you plan on using it in all aspects of training and actually teaching the dog what the stim is and how to turn it off in all aspects if his life, then maybe my answer would change. But it sounds like you want to heavy stim him for a singular behavior. And at 6 months I think there are better options.


----------



## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

bob_barker said:


> What is everyone's thoughts on age with a shock collar? I have a 6 month old that is a total mouth piece and literally you can't get his attention while he is going crazy at the neighbours dog. He's not aggressive, just wants the dog to come say hi, but she is not interested.
> 
> No negative comments please. Constructive criticism is one thing, but I will not take negative.
> Thank you



Huh??


SuperG


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

bob_barker said:


> Thanks everyone
> 
> I've tried, toys, treats, food bowls, etc. to not such luck.


Have you tried using a toy or ball that is only used for fun then put up when finished? You can build up their interest to where it becomes more important than any neighborhood dog. I keep several balls and tugs for training & games only, once I take them out, I have their full attention, even with the neighborhood yappers charging the fence.


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Before you use an ecollar, teach him a leave it command with the leash and prong. I think what you're seeing is nothing you are going to use is as valuable to him as getting to the fence. 

Later on, you could use the ecollar with the command, or just to show him to stay away from the fence, but I'd start by using the leash and collar.


----------



## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Nigel said:


> Have you tried using a toy or ball that is only used for fun then put up when finished? You can build up their interest to where it becomes more important than any neighborhood dog. I keep several balls and tugs for training & games only, once I take them out, I have their full attention, even with the neighborhood yappers charging the fence.


Same situation here...the frisbee is the high interest lure vs the incessant barking dogs at the fence.

Bob Barker....I assume you have already tried correcting using both a 6 foot lead and then a long line ? I'm probably making an assumption...but if there is a fence or the other dog is tethered..you have a controlled environment which should allow for on lead training and teaching your dog to pay some attention to you in this situation.....

Hmmmmm...6 months....can't say...never used one a pup....maybe someone has used an e collar on a pup and can add their experience....otherwise..any answer you get in here is just a guess as to whether it is too young or not.


SuperG


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

If you stim this dog while he is going off on the other dog I think you are likely to make it even worse that it is. I agree with stop and redirect BEFORE you see the behavior. Then slowly close the gap. rewarding looking at YOU. 

If you stim him enough to shut him down then he has just learned to be very very scared of a dog outside his area. 

JMO

Lou Castle has an ecollar technique for this but it requires the same level of finesse and you must be able to perfectly time the correction


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Agree with Steve Strom. You need to nip this in the butt now, but I would start with a long line (doesn't even need to be attached to a pinch) and then move to the e-collar (after running him through the introduction so he understands the E). 

Is he too young? Hard to answer that without seeing the dog. He may be mature enough to understand the collar after going through the introduction. Then again, he may not.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Good post Nancy.


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

If the prong didn't work neither will electric. Not because they won't work, but something in your technique is incorrect and that mistake will flow to any other tool


----------



## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

Newlie's trainer put him in a prong collar at first and it worked really well for most things. But when it came to anything that activated his prey drive, Newlie would go into what I called a red zone in which it was like he didn't even see me. The worst example was some rabbits that were hiding under a shed in my yard. Newlie would go around and around the shed, trying to dig under there, and would not respond to anything while he was doing this. Sometimes this went on for several hours and when he was finished, he would be covered in mud. I was able to grab his collar several times, but then he got smart enough where he wouldn't let me get close enough to grab him. (I should say that recall has always been Newlie's weakest command. I want him to come whenever I call him, not just when he feels like it.) Anyway, his trainer suggested an e-collar, showed me how to use it, and so far, it has been successful. Whenever I saw Newlie chasing rabbits, I would go out on the porch and say "Newlie, come" and if he didn't I would tap the button. I used it a couple of time on a low setting and once on a higher setting when he did not respond to the lower one. Now, he runs toward me as soon as I call him and though I am still carrying it in my hand, I am not having to actually use it. I am keeping the e-collar only on him during the day right now but I take it off at bedtime. I also use it judiciously, ie, I am not going to use it to teach him a silly trick. So far, recall and heeling are the only two things I have used it for and it has helped tremendously with both. I don't know about the age factor as Newlie is full grown, but I do agree with the post that said some e-collars are better that others. I had one previously that I returned because it was basically worthless.


----------



## Citizen K9 (Jul 29, 2003)

I have a Gordon Setter rescue right now while I'm taking a break from losing a GSD from DM. She was 6 when I adopted her, and cannot breathe without barking. Finally, despite all my experience raising dogs that shut up when asked to - I had to resort to an electronic bark collar. (the Citrus collar didn't work at all on her). She's worn that collar outside always and overnight so she stays quiet. I've had zero issues with it or her wearing it.

I use the SportDog Brand Rechargeable No Bark 10R. She's 13 now, and the collar still works just fine. One of the key features I really love about this collar is the temperament learning setting. It starts at a low correction setting and if the dog won't shut up, the corrective level increases accordingly. It works like a charm. (Yes, my dog knows exactly what she can get away with at a low volume, higher pitch without a shock, but low volume and reduced frenzy barking was what I wanted. There was no intention to prevent all barking, just keep it tolerable. 
www.sportdog.com


----------



## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

Also, fyi, for anyone who is trying to us an e-collar for the first time, the collar cannot be too loose or it will not work. Because Newlie's fur is so thick, his trainer also had to put on the longer probes. After I put the collar on, I make sure it is loose enough to get several fingers under it, but also that the probes are in contact with his skin. I rotate the collar so that the probes are on different sides of his throat every day and the collar is off at night.


----------



## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

newlie said:


> Newlie's trainer put him in a prong collar at first and it worked really well for most things. But when it came to anything that activated his prey drive, Newlie would go into what I called a red zone in which it was like he didn't even see me. The worst example was some rabbits that were hiding under a shed in my yard. Newlie would go around and around the shed, trying to dig under there, and would not respond to anything while he was doing this. Sometimes this went on for several hours and when he was finished, he would be covered in mud. I was able to grab his collar several times, but then he got smart enough where he wouldn't let me get close enough to grab him. (I should say that recall has always been Newlie's weakest command. I want him to come whenever I call him, not just when he feels like it.) Anyway, his trainer suggested an e-collar, showed me how to use it, and so far, it has been successful. Whenever I saw Newlie chasing rabbits, I would go out on the porch and say "Newlie, come" and if he didn't I would tap the button. I used it a couple of time on a low setting and once on a higher setting when he did not respond to the lower one. Now, he runs toward me as soon as I call him and though I am still carrying it in my hand, I am not having to actually use it. I am keeping the e-collar only on him during the day right now but I take it off at bedtime. I also use it judiciously, ie, I am not going to use it to teach him a silly trick. So far, recall and heeling are the only two things I have used it for and it has helped tremendously with both. I don't know about the age factor as Newlie is full grown, but I do agree with the post that said some e-collars are better that others. I had one previously that I returned because it was basically worthless.



This sounds exactly like Wile E. 

He is not reactive on the lead when walking. It's only when in the back yard, I've tried having him on a long lead and correcting this way. 

To me, throwing him a ball distracting with toys treats etc WHILE he is reacting is only rewarding the behaviour. Catching him before hand would be great, but this is not always possible as I am not always outside with them. 

I've used e collars on many different dogs before and am aware of the training that comes along with it, and obviously am prepared for it. 

I wish I could upload a video of him while he is in his "zone". It's as if the entire world has disappeared except the dog he needs to say hi to, once out of this "zone" it becomes a game to him cute little puppy comes out as he runs away etc.


----------



## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> Before you use an ecollar, teach him a leave it command.



He is very good with this command.


----------



## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

Citizen K9 said:


> I have a Gordon Setter rescue right now while I'm taking a break from losing a GSD from DM. She was 6 when I adopted her, and cannot breathe without barking. Finally, despite all my experience raising dogs that shut up when asked to - I had to resort to an electronic bark collar. (the Citrus collar didn't work at all on her). She's worn that collar outside always and overnight so she stays quiet. I've had zero issues with it or her wearing it.
> 
> I use the SportDog Brand Rechargeable No Bark 10R. She's 13 now, and the collar still works just fine. One of the key features I really love about this collar is the temperament learning setting. It starts at a low correction setting and if the dog won't shut up, the corrective level increases accordingly. It works like a charm. (Yes, my dog knows exactly what she can get away with at a low volume, higher pitch without a shock, but low volume and reduced frenzy barking was what I wanted. There was no intention to prevent all barking, just keep it tolerable.
> www.sportdog.com



This is the exact one I have


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

bob_barker said:


> He is very good with this command.


I don't mean this to sound negative, but if he was good with that command, he should leave the fence, right? You wouldn't be thinking about an ecollar for it.


----------



## Ruby'sMom (May 25, 2014)

So, you have two GSs, Wile E and Bob Barker? What is Bob Barker doing while Wile E is going crazy. Why not have Wile E learn from Bob Barker if he doesn't misbehave. I bet if you worked with Bob Barker and rewarded generously, Wile E would catch on. Just a thought.


----------



## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> I don't mean this to sound negative, but if he was good with that command, he should leave the fence, right? You wouldn't be thinking about an ecollar for it.



True, I should re phrase that... He knows leave it in all other aspect of training and behaviour. 
I stated in one of my previous comments that he goes into this "zone" where he hears nothing, nothing can distract him until the other dog is out of his site or no longer barking/reacting to him. 

Not negative, I know what you meant by it


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I know the zone because I had one who was notorious for chasing game. Took a full hit on an electric cattle fence and was completely unaware she had been shocked even though her body twitched and we heard the fence arc never slowed down on the chase. We did use Lou Castle's method after that, but it was very controlled (she chased chickens and we put a chicken in a cage and worked through his protocol and it fixed the problem). 

It was very much like desensitization methods I used with a dog aggressive dog with no correction (find the distance that elicts no response and sloooowly move closer with much praise for good behavior) and the ecollar method was very very low stim - Lou has a protocol. But you have no control over the other dog behind the fence and you have to control the environment for it to work properly so I am not so sure it would work for you. In our case we had a very well defined if not very short sequence of body language - stare, freeze (she actually pointed), then explode and I had to time her stim at the stare. It took some finesse and tight control on the distance between her and the chicken. I sure got good at reading the warning signs of predatory behavior though they seem not quite the same as aggression.

He could probably work you through the ecollar for your situation but it would need to one with continuosly variable stim like a dogtra or an einstein. I don't know the collar about which you are talking.... a bark collar? I am sorry but if you hit this dog at high stim and I bet you will start having trouble on walks as well. Agree with Steve, you should have a better "leave it"

My current dog will fence fight if the neighbor dog gets out of its yard run into my yard and try to start a fight at my fence (which is inside my property line by good 10 feet) and "leave it" is what I use and that was trained normally with a lot of repetitions and generalizations everywhere. If I am not out there my dog is not free in that part of the yard because I stop it immediately.


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

bob_barker said:


> True, I should re phrase that... He knows leave it in all other aspect of training and behaviour.
> I stated in one of my previous comments that he goes into this "zone" where he hears nothing, nothing can distract him until the other dog is out of his site or no longer barking/reacting to him.
> 
> Not negative, I know what you meant by it


And what you describe as a zone, is what I meant by you've found the limits of your rewards. He needs to know he "Has" to leave it. Its not an option.


----------



## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

Thanks guys! 
I'm going to put all of this information to work!! 

Wish me luck


----------



## canada.k9 (Jan 7, 2015)

newlie said:


> Newlie's trainer put him in a prong collar at first and it worked really well for most things. But when it came to anything that activated his prey drive, Newlie would go into what I called a red zone in which it was like he didn't even see me. The worst example was some rabbits that were hiding under a shed in my yard. Newlie would go around and around the shed, trying to dig under there, and would not respond to anything while he was doing this. Sometimes this went on for several hours and when he was finished, he would be covered in mud. I was able to grab his collar several times, but then he got smart enough where he wouldn't let me get close enough to grab him. (I should say that recall has always been Newlie's weakest command. I want him to come whenever I call him, not just when he feels like it.) Anyway, his trainer suggested an e-collar, showed me how to use it, and so far, it has been successful. Whenever I saw Newlie chasing rabbits, I would go out on the porch and say "Newlie, come" and if he didn't I would tap the button. I used it a couple of time on a low setting and once on a higher setting when he did not respond to the lower one. Now, he runs toward me as soon as I call him and though I am still carrying it in my hand, I am not having to actually use it. I am keeping the e-collar only on him during the day right now but I take it off at bedtime. I also use it judiciously, ie, I am not going to use it to teach him a silly trick. So far, recall and heeling are the only two things I have used it for and it has helped tremendously with both.


Did you steal my dog? Ahaha, jk, but this is EXACTLY what Phoenix was doing, although her problem, was running away from us, or just completely zoning us out.
We started using a E collar at a low setting (2) at age 7 1/2 months. Worked like a charm. Haven't had to use it for a long time now. Haven't seen her in the 'zone' for a long time and her recall, is now flawless.

I think the age factor, really depends on the setting and what you're using it for. Using a low setting with a young dog, should be fine!


----------



## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

The protocol that a couple of people have mentioned can be found here. Http://www.loucastle.com/crittering 

It doesn’t take much finesse, it just involves finding the first level of stim that the dog feels. It also doesn't take perfect timing. Of course the better the timing is, the faster the learning will occur. Timing is far more important with marker training where, if your timing is off, you can not only teach the dog what you want him to learn, but you can inadvertently train the wrong thing, and many people are able to get satisfactory results with that.


----------



## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

I agree, Canada. And reading some of the more recent posts makes me think about other possible uses for the e-collar. Newlie and the lab next door used to fence fight more than they do now, but still do occasionally. Once again, when he was doing that he would zone me out and nothing short of a 2x4 could get his attention. I don't care if they race each other up and down the fence, but if he is acting like a nut, I want him to break away and come when I call him. This neighbor also has chickens in his yard, and if they get too close to the fence, I have seen Newlie crouch down and start to slink toward them like he is sneaking up on them. If I can catch him when he starts, I may be able to break him of that.

Newlie also takes exception to anyone playing basketball, I am not sure if he gets mad because he is not getting to play or if he wants them to stop. And the same neighbors that he welcomes into the house to feed him if I am going to be late, he can sometimes object to if they are near his fence. It's a little tricky there because I want him to object if an intruder is coming into the yard, just not the neighbors. I guess its the same thing. If I see him doing something that I don't like and I tell him to come, he will have to come or face the consequences.


----------



## sourdough44 (Oct 26, 2013)

If one gets an ecollar, it's almost imperative to have a good 'page' feature. The page is just the collar vibrating, a tone can work in a similar way.

That 'Sport Dog' 425 doesn't quite do it for me. I like the Dogtra 2300 NCP, about $260 or so. Of course with any ecollar the dog 1st needs to know what is expected, already trained. 

For the vast majority of the time a little 'page' is all it takes.


----------



## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

sourdough44 said:


> I like the Dogtra 2300 NCP, about $260 or so.


The Dogtra 2300 is my favorite collar right now. But when Einstein releases their Pro Educator in a low to high power unit, that will probably become my fav. It will have all the features of the 2300 and more. Any of the four buttons can be programmed to any of several features, several ways of delivering the stim. It also has a light on the receiver that can be either solid on or a flashing light. 



sourdough44 said:


> Of course with any ecollar the dog 1st needs to know what is expected, already trained.


This is the case with most methods of using an Ecollar where the behaviors being trained with other methods and then introduce the Ecollar to proof them or work them at a distance. But it's not the only way to use the Ecollar. My methods introduce the Ecollar at the start of the training before the dog knows the behaviors and uses the Ecollar to train those behaviors.


----------



## bob_barker (Dec 31, 2013)

I started Wile E on the ECollar a few days after I posted this. And within HOURS he got it. 
He still has his moments where he barks when the collar is on, but all I have to do is tell him "off" now and boom... Done.. 
Glad I made the decision to do it. 
I find he is listening and responding to me better overall when in the backyard now. 

Thanks everyone


----------



## sourdough44 (Oct 26, 2013)

She's excited when I get the collar out, she knows we are going out. She is also on her best behavior while wearing the collar, Dogtra 2300.

No, I very seldom ever give any 'stimulation', it may be a bit of 'page' if required.


----------



## MonsterMorgan (Jul 16, 2014)

Do you know when the model comes out. I am torn between the 2300 and the one of the E Collar technology brands. Not sure what one to get first. First time E collar owner coming up.


----------



## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

MonsterMorgan said:


> * Do you know when the model comes out. * I am torn between the 2300 and the one of the E Collar technology brands. Not sure what one to get first. First time E collar owner coming up.


I spoke to the owner of the company a couple of days ago and asked him this exact question. He said 3-6 months. I'd lean towards the bigger number. They have to do lots of changes, new molds for the receiver, new battery technology, new programming, etc. There will be some overlap from the Pro Educator 900 but bugs always follow. 

If you want to start right now, as most people do who discover this tool, I wouldn't wait. Sometimes there are delays in coming out with a new product, and if you're waiting, that can be infuriating. Don't ask me how I know this! Lol.


----------



## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

LouCastle said:


> The protocol that a couple of people have mentioned can be found here. Http://www.loucastle.com/crittering
> 
> It doesn’t take much finesse, it just involves finding the first level of stim that the dog feels. It also doesn't take perfect timing. Of course the better the timing is, the faster the learning will occur. Timing is far more important with marker training where, if your timing is off, you can not only teach the dog what you want him to learn, but you can inadvertently train the wrong thing, and many people are able to get satisfactory results with that.


I am a novice to GSDs. Lou's website gives very good, detailed, step-by-step directions. The Dogtra 2300 is a great tool to use with Lou's instructions. Very humane and effective. 

I had used a different e collar for a while with an experienced GSD trainer who trained with e collars (Garmin), but I liked Lou's approach better and the Dogtra 2300 has so many levels, it can be fined tuned for the individual dog.


----------



## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

I was recently banned for life....as in never ever ever....from a dog training forum for asking about the efficacy of e collars in certain situations. It is a hard life I lead...but somehow, I shall make it.


SuperG


----------



## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I use e-collars for off leash training mostly but also in other training and it is a terrific tool.

But I think people who post something like "I used it a few times and now my dog is perfect" are pretty deceptive. The dogs quickly get how to turn off the e-collar and the basics of escape training. Where it gets tricky is when you take the dog into different situations, just like with any other training. Lou goes through proofing and weaning off the e-collar on his page. He also trains with the e-collar correction every time a command is given (usually come) before he recommends starting to give corrections every third time or so.

It is not a quick, dirty, super easy process. It takes time and thought to set the dog up to succeed. Some training, like avoidance for snake proofing may be a one-or three shock deal but that is at high stim and has a very different process.

I just think it's important to understand that e-collar training, while it has pretty quick results for many dogs, still involves a lot of time training and to get the dog to advanced level with proofing takes time and effort. It's not a one or two shock and you're done deal.


----------



## MonsterMorgan (Jul 16, 2014)

anyone have an opinion on the tactical 400 ts vs 2300 ncp?


----------



## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

MonsterMorgan said:


> anyone have an opinion on the tactical 400 ts vs 2300 ncp?


What are you training for?


----------



## MonsterMorgan (Jul 16, 2014)

My Female Shepherd is now 11 months old. I am not sure if this matters or not some people I talked says it does but she is German Lines so she all her relatives were Schutzhund. 

She knows all the basic commands, she pretty much has since she was 5 months old. Sit, down, stay, heel, come, paw, drop it, leave it and off. She knows some basic agility stuff as well. 

Its just whether she decides to do them or not. So the collar would be a way to enforce those commands. 

The bigger issue we have with her is in the last couple months she has decided that she wants to go full out and attack small dogs when on a leash. Not sure about off leash but I would imagine it would be the same. She loves to play with big dogs off leash and loves people. So leash reactivity is the other big one. She is fine with dogs her own size or larger (so far anyway) but small dogs its all out. 

So leash reactivity and enforcing the commands that she chooses to ignore. 

My ultimate goal is to be able to have her off leash for hikes and have be able to come, heel, sit and stay when called not matter what the distraction.

Oh and biting our toes and hands when she wants to play and we ignore her. I want to be able to fix that as well. Hope this helps.


----------



## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Go to Dog Training Forum and ask which e-collar is best. I'll give you a shiny new quarter if you don't get booted within 1 day. 

SuperG


----------



## MonsterMorgan (Jul 16, 2014)

Sorry about the typos in that message. Hopefully it was not that horrible to read. I am trying to solve problems not create new ones. I will not be posting in that forum.


----------



## Waldi (Jun 14, 2013)

bob_barker said:


> What is everyone's thoughts on age with a shock collar? I have a 6 month old that is a total mouth piece and literally you can't get his attention while he is going crazy at the neighbours dog. He's not aggressive, just wants the dog to come say hi, but she is not interested.
> 
> No negative comments please. Constructive criticism is one thing, but I will not take negative.
> Thank you


Think about your puppy in terms of baby, he wants to play and socialize. Nothing wrong with this, it is still so young, need to try to correct but shock collar at this age it is a bit too early. I would recommend working on recall and once this is under controll go to dog park of placers where he can play with other dogs. They need that. My puppy at that age did same and she is now 2 years old and doing great, still wants to invite other dogs to play by barking, and now she is fully grown that is different and we do correct this and she does comply. Whenb we come to dog ark I keep her on the leash until she is calm, once she is released she plays nicely.
Youg pupps are excided and are looking for playmates, we had other pupps that she played and that was great. They do have a lots of energy so you should give them the opportunity to play. One of the elements to work is if he is excited at the sight of other dog, parhaps use sit command to setle him down.
You will be fine, and he will grow out of it, gs are very vocal and they love to "talk" to other dogs. Good luck


----------



## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

MonsterMorgan said:


> Its just whether she decides to do them or not. So the collar would be a way to enforce those commands.
> 
> The bigger issue we have with her is in the last couple months she has decided that she wants to go full out and attack small dogs when on a leash. Not sure about off leash but I would imagine it would be the same. She loves to play with big dogs off leash and loves people. So leash reactivity is the other big one. She is fine with dogs her own size or larger (so far anyway) but small dogs its all out.
> 
> ...


What make the 400 into a "tactical model" is that there are two receivers on one collar strap. The 2300 has the more common, single receiver. Even with two receivers, the 400 is a "low to medium" Ecollar, while the 2300 is a "low to full" power unit. I'm not a fan of the first, no matter how many receivers you use. The problem is that in an emergency situation (the horror show that I always use as an example, is that your dog is chasing a cat towards a busy street, and is ignoring your recall commands) the low to medium power unit may not go high enough to get his attention. The highest level on these units are about 2/3 of the power of the full power units. 

So, while you can probably achieve your goals with the 400, especially if you're going to use my methods, it's not a good choice "for insurance." 

If you like the Ecollar Technologies units then I'd go to the 800 series, those are full power units. 

Ecollar Tech is about to release a new unit, their Pro Educator, in a full power unit (the only one that's available now is the 900, a low to medium power unit) and that will probably become my go−to collar. It will be completely programmable with lots of options. But that is probably not going to be available for several months. 

I suggest that you not use the Ecollar for corrections until you've taught the basic commands with it. Otherwise you can create all sorts of problems.


----------



## MonsterMorgan (Jul 16, 2014)

Lou thanks a lot for the input. I took a look at your website and correct if I am wrong please but if I understand correctly you have the basic commands as recall, sit and down? I am guessing I would add "stay" in there as well and get those down first with the ecollar before moving onto the leash reactivity. Is that correct for the basic commands?


----------



## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

MonsterMorgan said:


> Lou thanks a lot for the input. I took a look at your website and correct if I am wrong please but if I understand correctly you have the basic commands as recall, sit and down? I am guessing I would add "stay" in there as well and get those down first with the ecollar before moving onto the leash reactivity. Is that correct for the basic commands?


You are correct that I consider that the recall, sit and down, are the "basic commands." I don't teach a stay and suggest that you not bother either, as each command means "do it until you get a release or another command" and so, another command that means the same thing is not needed. Essentially, it's a repeated command. If you're competing in a sport where OB is an issue then it may be an advantage, if you're not, then I don't think that it's necessary. As a LEO K−9 handler I often didn't have time to repeat commands. As a pet owner, it's not necessary. 

Once you teach those and proof those basic OB commands with my methods, the dog has a thorough understanding of what the Ecollar stim means. He's said to be "collar literate."


When the stim starts, you (the dog) has done the wrong thing
When the stim stops, you have done the right thing
The stim starting and/or stopping is due to your behavior
The stim comes from the environment

These meanings of the Ecollar stim usually do not occur with other methods and so when you try to use them for other things, such as for aversion training, it can easily cause confusion. You may even find that they stop by themselves because the dog learns to read your body language and will stop doing what causes you to "look" unhappy. That also does not usually occur with other ways of using the Ecollar.


----------



## MonsterMorgan (Jul 16, 2014)

Thank you for the reply. I really appreciate the help. I will leave stay out of the commands. Maybe add in Heel? I forgot about that one until our walk today and she insisted on doing her look dad I can heel for 20 seconds before I pull your arm off to smell the other side of the street and not listen. Looks like I will get the Dogtra 2300 just to make sure it has enough Stim.


----------



## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

For pet dogs I usually don't bother with a heel command. The recall quickly becomes loose leash walking which is all most pet owners need or want. Giving the recall command gets that done. Of course if you want a precise, AKC OB style heel, you can teach it. For that I prefer the pinch collar, rather than the Ecollar.


----------

