# Sit Means Sit training/collar



## Germanshepherdlove (May 30, 2014)

Just went and had a consult with them, it was pretty cool. Anyone ever done training with them? 

You basically buy a package, which is pricey, but you get the collar with a life time guarantee and free classes for life.

They said they want you to wean the dog off the collar in 6 months. I felt it on my hand and it didn't hurt. It felt like the device they put on my shoulders at physical therapy.

Anyone have any thoughts on Sit Means Sit? I think I'm going to do it. The trainers seem awesome and their dogs on really good. They said that they will do payment plans, so that helps.

I have had no experience with any type of electronic collars before.


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## Ellimaybel (Mar 16, 2014)

I had a friend (we are both military families) that when she bought her shock collars she made everyone of her family members put it on their neck to see what it felt like for the dog. Sorry if this is a little off your point, just reminded me when you said you tried it on your hand. I have no experience with them but I haven't had to either thankfully.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Not a fan. At all.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Merciel said:


> Not a fan. At all.



Of the company or the Ecollar? 
From what I read they're mostly force training and their lifetime guarantee is not exactly what you think it is
Yelp them. Problem is that it's a franchise so you don't know if your franchise is good or bad. 
I wouldn't but that's me


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## Germanshepherdlove (May 30, 2014)

lalachka said:


> Of the company or the Ecollar?
> From what I read they're mostly force training and their lifetime guarantee is not exactly what you think it is
> Yelp them. Problem is that it's a franchise so you don't know if your franchise is good or bad.
> I wouldn't but that's me
> ...


What do you mean by force training? 

The trainer I saw was using the collar like a tap on the shoulder. He would tap it, then give the dog a treat. 

I looked up his reviews online and they were all really really good.


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

Yes. I used them. I would recommend them if anyone was insistent on e-collar training. It was a last resort for me. I tried to exhaust other options first. But it's an effective training tool as long as it's not abused. Meaning, do exactly what the trainer says. No exceptions. Ask questions. 

It's an individual choice for the owner. Every dog is different. Yours may not even need this tool. I don't know, as I don't know your situation. I would not let others feelings persuade your decision as this topic gets very spirited on this board. You have to do what fits your situation. 

As far as Sit Means Sit goes, my trainer was very good at teaching us and the dog. I have a very hard dog. Positive training did not have the desired effect. So we went with Sit Means Sit. I am also going to sign up for the lifetime sessions also. Just to make sure I have an outside view making sure I am not making mistakes. Only fair to the dog if your going to use this tool. I have seen no downsides to this method with my dog. But again, that is my dog. Just follow what the trainer says to the letter.

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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Force meaning that they start with force (Ecollar). Whether they also give him treats doesn't matter. 

The style I like is to not use force almost at all while you're teaching the dog what commands mean. Then, later, much later, when tons of work has been done and the dog knows what everything means and refuses to comply - force is used to show him that he must. 

Since they're limited on time (few sessions) almost by definition that means they're going to be using force to teach. 


It's all about your goals though. Not everyone wants to or can afford to wait months to teach a dog the basic stuff. So they might work for you 


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

lalachka said:


> Of the company or the Ecollar?
> From what I read they're mostly force training and their lifetime guarantee is not exactly what you think it is
> Yelp them. Problem is that it's a franchise so you don't know if your franchise is good or bad.
> I wouldn't but that's me


For purposes of this discussion I meant SMS specifically.


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## Germanshepherdlove (May 30, 2014)

jafo220 said:


> Yes. I used them. I would recommend them if anyone was insistent on e-collar training. It was a last resort for me. I tried to exhaust other options first. But it's an effective training tool as long as it's not abused. Meaning, do exactly what the trainer says. No exceptions. Ask questions.
> 
> It's an individual choice for the owner. Every dog is different. Yours may not even need this tool. I don't know, as I don't know your situation. I would not let others feelings persuade your decision as this topic gets very spirited on this board. You have to do what fits your situation.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your feedback. I have a hard dog, and I have a ton of trouble getting his focus. The trainer said we would be using the collar like a tap on the shoulder to get his focus. I have been using positive methods for months. My dog can do all kinds of things, but he can't focus outside and around other dogs. No amount of treats or toys can get his focus. I want to be able to walk him with out him dragging me randomly or lunging toward people for pets. I also want him to be off of the leash. I have been working on this for months. He can be super off of the leash, but he will also run off and he knows I can't get to him then.

He said the tap on the collar should be associated with something positive like a treat or toy. That is just a tap to get their attention on you.

I just want to be able to have fun with my dog and not worry about him being naughty or not listening. I train with him every day and put so much work in. That being said,I don't want to be mean to him either.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Lol...people calling their dogs hard. Classic.

Hard doesn't mean the dog is immune to corrections with other tools. An electric shock/buzz isn't any more painful of a correction than a prong.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

I'm not saying ecollars are bad, but I think there are better options before you go to them.

You should never have your dog off leash until your recall is 100% proofed. He must never learn that not coming when called is an option available to him. You can buy training lines very cheaply. Never use your recall command unless you can back it up (ie. on a leash!) Call your dog and pop the leash. If your dog is already returning to you, it won't feel the pop, if not, it gets the correction. Have a total party when he comes to you, use high value treats or a toy as a reward.

Regarding the other dogs and distractions, this is something you need to build up to. My dog has a low threshold and can't cap her drives which makes doing any training in a non-sterile environment a real challenge. 

Increase your distance to the distractions. Start from working in your home, to working in your backyard, to working on the sidewalk, then move to higher distraction areas, but increase your distance to the distractions and work closer as your dog gets better.


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## Germanshepherdlove (May 30, 2014)

blackshep said:


> I'm not saying ecollars are bad, but I think there are better options before you go to them.
> 
> You should never have your dog off leash until your recall is 100% proofed. He must never learn that not coming when called is an option available to him. You can buy training lines very cheaply. Never use your recall command unless you can back it up (ie. on a leash!) Call your dog and pop the leash. If your dog is already returning to you, it won't feel the pop, if not, it gets the correction. Have a total party when he comes to you, use high value treats or a toy as a reward.
> 
> ...


But at the end of the day, the dog knows if he's on the leash or not, correct? He does well with recall on the leash, that is not a problem. The problem comes when there is no leash. He can even drag the long line and be good, but he knows the second the leash is off.


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## Germanshepherdlove (May 30, 2014)

martemchik said:


> Hard doesn't mean the dog is immune to corrections with other tools. An electric shock/buzz isn't any more painful of a correction than a prong.


I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here


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## E.Hatch (Sep 24, 2013)

Go for it. The only way you'll know is if you try it. If you hate it or decide it's "mean " then stop. I went back and forth about using an e collar too but am so glad we did. 


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

in your case you have failed to get his attention and train under his threshold before you exposed him to the stimulus that causes him to lose focus on you
so now you need a short cut to get that attention
go back to the basics of training because you missed a step


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I think it is hard to assess the method unless you have trained with them. And they are very hush hush about their techniques (Unlike folks like Lou Castle, and Michael Ellis). FWIW those I knew who used this method indicated the collar would be a full time tool......not weaning the dog off of it.

It is a franchise operation and the trainers are not necessarily experienced dog trainers in their own right.

I saw one dog trained with the method and it was obedient......but to me, I felt like it took something away...made the dog a bit robotic. JMO. One dog. No experience. I have seen plenty of dogs trained with ecollars and don't feel that way about the tool.

I am not sure hardness with a prong translates ot hardness with an ecollar. Some times VERY hard dogs can be very soft with the stim. You felt the stim. Was it at the highest level it will be applied to the dog? 

What type of collar do they provide? Just curious. I have an old Dogtra on loan to a friend but would consider an Einstein if I were buying a new one.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Germanshepherdlove said:


> But at the end of the day, the dog knows if he's on the leash or not, correct? He does well with recall on the leash, that is not a problem. The problem comes when there is no leash. He can even drag the long line and be good, but he knows the second the leash is off.


 No, the dog knows to get it's butt back to you when you tell it to. The dog is never off leash until it's proofed, so it never gets the chance to explore other options like running away.

I might use an ecollar to proof off leash work, but not before I put the time in with the on leash stuff.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

my boy diesel said:


> in your case you have failed to get his attention and train under his threshold before you exposed him to the stimulus that causes him to lose focus on you
> so now you need a short cut to get that attention
> go back to the basics of training because you missed a step


 Yes, exactly. 

This is what I'm trying to say OP, you progressed too quickly before you proofed at lower distractions with more control. It's not impossible to correct, but now you have the added challenge of having to undo his bad habits.

Ask me how I know, I'm working through some stuff with my dog too


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## Tattersail (Feb 5, 2014)

blackshep said:


> No, the dog knows to get it's butt back to you when you tell it to. The dog is never off leash until it's proofed, so it never gets the chance to explore other options like running away.
> 
> I might use an ecollar to proof off leash work, but not before I put the time in with the on leash stuff.


Ha, Raven tried that once, we were in a fenced in area, I recalled her, she decided to be deaf so I chased her down (wasn't actually running at her, just purposefully walking towards her) until I got her, brought her back to where I had asked to come and told her "good here". She didn't try that one again!


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

lalachka said:


> Force meaning that they start with force (Ecollar). Whether they also give him treats doesn't matter.
> 
> The style I like is to not use force almost at all while you're teaching the dog what commands mean. Then, later, much later, when tons of work has been done and the dog knows what everything means and refuses to comply - force is used to show him that he must.
> 
> ...


You literally have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Stop spewing Ecollar "knowledge". Probably not a far stretch to say you've never even used one. 

There are many ways to train a dog. I don't have any opinion on the company but if you want your dog to understand something in a clear and precise way, nothing gets that point across better than an Ecollar. Especially with a knowledgeable trainer to guide you. Ecollars are even more useful when you are training with distance. Training is about timing. You can do that better with an Ecollar than with a leash. 

If you feel comfortable with the trainer than go for it. Don't let people on an Internet forum who's watched a bunch of YouTube videos sway your opinion.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Germanshepherdlove said:


> I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here


http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...what-do-dog-shuts-down-leash-corrections.html

You posted about how your dog shuts down when corrected with a flat...and your solution is to strap on an ecollar? Real hard dog there.


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## Germanshepherdlove (May 30, 2014)

martemchik said:


> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...what-do-dog-shuts-down-leash-corrections.html
> 
> You posted about how your dog shuts down when corrected with a flat...and your solution is to strap on an ecollar? Real hard dog there.


Different dogs actually


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## Germanshepherdlove (May 30, 2014)

boomer11 said:


> You literally have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Stop spewing Ecollar "knowledge". Probably not a far stretch to say you've never even used one.
> 
> There are many ways to train a dog. I don't have any opinion on the company but if you want your dog to understand something in a clear and precise way, nothing gets that point across better than an Ecollar. Especially with a knowledgeable trainer to guide you. Ecollars are even more useful when you are training with distance. Training is about timing. You can do that better with an Ecollar than with a leash.
> 
> If you feel comfortable with the trainer than go for it. Don't let people on an Internet forum who's watched a bunch of YouTube videos sway your opinion.


I actually got a really good feeling from the trainer. He read my dog really well and figured him it right away.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Boomer, I wasn't talking about the Ecollar per se, I was talking about their methods. If they used a prong or anything else, i'd say the same thing. This way of teaching the dog is pure force training, that's what it's called (or something similar). You use force and the dog learns by turning it off. I've read about their training methods some place else. 

I'm not going to argue with you. You with your 'recalls for love' is def the pro. Though if your dog listens to you because he loves you lolol then you don't know anything about the Ecollar either. 


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

It's not 'pure force training' to use a prong or an ecollar

Leerburg | The Problem with All-Positive Dog Training


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

blackshep said:


> It's not 'pure force training' to use a prong or an ecollar
> 
> Leerburg | The Problem with All-Positive Dog Training



I didn't say it was. I read all there is to read on leerburg, by the way. 
The way the Ecollar or prong is used is what determines whether it's pure force or not.

If you use a prong to leash pressure the dog into a down - that's pure force. If you use treats to teach a dog the down and then pop him when he knows it and doesn't comply - that's not pure force. 

I read about their methods. Also, the fact that they sell a package and then guarantee it for life means they're short on time. They have to achieve a lot within a few sessions. That almost guarantees they're pure force. 


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Also, I'm not pro all positive either. I like balanced training that leerburg promotes, I thought I said that in my first post. 

I like teaching the dog what I want and then correcting when he doesn't comply. 


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

Germanshepherdlove said:


> I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here


Although the post is somewhat sarcastic, the term "hard dog" is not the right term. So technically they are correct. 

I know I used the term but the term was not the correct one actually. Just like heel command means different things to different people depending on how it's used either "properly" or improperly". 

Some people like to nit pick terms and such. If one was going to enter the world of dog competition or are just anal about things like this, then by all means used the term properly. But I get the sense you nor I could care less as it as usual is off topic. 

Be prepared, this topic will probably get to 20 or 30 pages of mud throwing and off topic BS. 

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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

jafo220 said:


> Although the post is somewhat sarcastic, the term "hard dog" is not the right term. So technically they are correct.
> 
> I know I used the term but the term was not the correct one actually. Just like heel command means different things to different people depending on how it's used either "properly" or improperly".
> 
> ...


Just a heads up...when asking for training advice from people over the internet, without posting videos, its probably best to describe your dog and what you're seeing during training in the most clear and accurate way possible. That's why when you choose to use a term "improperly" you're not really helping yourself because people will base their advice on what they've read, so if you want to describe your dog as "hard" even though you have no idea what a "hard dog" is or you just want to use that word even though you know most people interpret it a certain way which is different than what you mean...its just stupid.


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## My2shepherds (Jun 10, 2014)

In regards to the Sit Means Sit facility that was here locally.... I will not comment on their training techniques as I have never seen them... the facility itself was about a block from my work and I drove by it everyday twice sometimes more if I left for lunch. I was not impressed with the facility I saw, an old trailer dock warehouse with no shade or outdoor cooling area for the dogs I did see there and many times the same dogs were simply left outside to run on the concrete lot. The whole lot was fenced in however I felt bad for those pups out there in the direct sun and barking their heads off the whole time (which could be heard and seen from my work). Granted it may be just this particular location that seemed to be so reluctant about caring for them in the heat of the day (this was last summer which in Ohio was ridiculously hot!) I do not know but it definately left a bad taste in my mouth. The location has since shut down and I do not know if it was a relocation or not. None of this may be helpful in this decision process but I would want to hear the pros and cons of people's experiences before I placed my girls in their care...


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

boomer11 said:


> You literally have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Stop spewing Ecollar "knowledge". Probably not a far stretch to say you've never even used one.
> 
> There are many ways to train a dog. I don't have any opinion on the company but if you want your dog to understand something in a clear and precise way, nothing gets that point across better than an Ecollar. Especially with a knowledgeable trainer to guide you. Ecollars are even more useful when you are training with distance. Training is about timing. You can do that better with an Ecollar than with a leash.
> 
> If you feel comfortable with the trainer than go for it. Don't let people on an Internet forum who's watched a bunch of YouTube videos sway your opinion.


Hey Boomer, I think your dead on with the first part about there being many ways to train a dog, but I have my doubts about nothing being better then an ecollar in a lot of cases. Maybe you could give a little detail about how well one worked for you in different cases or how you applied it on something at a distance? How you reached that conclusion would be useful to the OP, and I'm curious.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

jocoyn said:


> What type of collar do they provide? Just curious. I have an old Dogtra on loan to a friend but would consider an Einstein if I were buying a new one.


They have their own, made for them by Sportdog.


The New Sit Means Sit Collar


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

martemchik said:


> Just a heads up...when asking for training advice from people over the internet, without posting videos, its probably best to describe your dog and what you're seeing during training in the most clear and accurate way possible. That's why when you choose to use a term "improperly" you're not really helping yourself because people will base their advice on what they've read, so if you want to describe your dog as "hard" even though you have no idea what a "hard dog" is or you just want to use that word even though you know most people interpret it a certain way which is different than what you mean...its just stupid.


I was not asking for your advice nor was I giving advice. I was confused with a term and used it improperly. So far you're the only one who see's this as a big deal. Last time I checked, I think the OP was gaining a trainer, so I'm pretty sure they're covered in the training aspect. You can let the air out of your chest now.


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

My2shepherds said:


> In regards to the Sit Means Sit facility that was here locally.... I will not comment on their training techniques as I have never seen them... the facility itself was about a block from my work and I drove by it everyday twice sometimes more if I left for lunch. I was not impressed with the facility I saw, an old trailer dock warehouse with no shade or outdoor cooling area for the dogs I did see there and many times the same dogs were simply left outside to run on the concrete lot. The whole lot was fenced in however I felt bad for those pups out there in the direct sun and barking their heads off the whole time (which could be heard and seen from my work). Granted it may be just this particular location that seemed to be so reluctant about caring for them in the heat of the day (this was last summer which in Ohio was ridiculously hot!) I do not know but it definately left a bad taste in my mouth. The location has since shut down and I do not know if it was a relocation or not. None of this may be helpful in this decision process but I would want to hear the pros and cons of people's experiences before I placed my girls in their care...


This is a good post and something to think about. 

We did our sessions in home. The other was too expensive and I didn't really want my dog out of site. I liked the in home training though.


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## Germanshepherdlove (May 30, 2014)

Thanks for the info. Just to add,I would never send one of my dogs away to be trained. I would be going to their training building, as well as doing training with the trainer out in public.


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

I only know about the local franchise here in town. The man who runs it I met some time ago when my golden was a puppy and we had just discovered the Schutzhund clubs in town. The general feeling that I get from the community of dog trainers as a whole here is that he is not exactly a good trainer, and without the collar, the dog doesn't do what it does with it on. A friend of mine paid the 800 for the collar and classes. She said when it was on, and when they were training, her dog did perfect. But as soon as it was off, he didn't really care again. 

The gist of what I got from the trainer I know is that the idea behind the collar is to use it like a clicker. Which makes me figure that they use the vibrating portion of that collar more than the shocking one. Again, that was what I got as an impression from the man that I know, so don't really count it as 100% fact.

Personally I wouldn't go with them. The money for the collar and the continued need for the collar don't seem worth the money, IMO. I have had to use the prong with my three current dogs at one point or another, but I have been able to wean them off the tool. That is what all these collars are. Tools. They should not be considered the begin all, end all of training. They are aids. 

Only dog that I saw that he trained was a young GSD that a woman who really has no business in owning said GSD has. She was putting basket muzzles with socks in between around the puppy's face before she resorted to this. Everything I tried to tell her about training and living with a GSD was forgotten. I loved the look of her baby, even if I know the breeder wasn't a very good one in my region. Seeing her after the training, she looked depressed and almost forlorn. The dog also took up chasing and chewing on her tail, which states to me that the poor baby is understimulated.

So, end of the day, take it as you will, but my overall perception is not too highly of the franchise, and I have other trainers I personally know who I recommend to people around me.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Personally, I wont train with anyone who has only one tool in their box. If the only way they can train a dog is with the ecollar, i would look elsewhere. I would look elsewhere if they only trained with positive, only trained with prong, or choke. I want a trainewr that customizes training to the individual dog. Its not one size fits all.


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## Germanshepherdlove (May 30, 2014)

gsdsar said:


> Personally, I wont train with anyone who has only one tool in their box. If the only way they can train a dog is with the ecollar, i would look elsewhere. I would look elsewhere if they only trained with positive, only trained with prong, or choke. I want a trainewr that customizes training to the individual dog. Its not one size fits all.


They don't really only train with an e collar, they also use toys, treats, and praise. Also they stress that if you haven't weaned off of the collar in 6 months, you aren't doing your homework. 

I've gotten some emails from this particular trainers clients, they really love him and have seen huge improvements with their dogs. Including off leash reliability.


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## Deno (Apr 3, 2013)

I have never heard of SMS before this, but I do know there is better living with electricity.

There were nay sayers with the light bulb too.

There are savvy people who recognized all the many benefits of this tool and they capitalized on it.

This is great for people who have a problem dog and/or just feel like they have to be taught how to use it in other areas. 

IMHO this tool is not a short cut to teaching the basics at any level, but I could be wrong.

But there is no doubt if your dog is trained, you can tweak/proof to near perfection with it.

There is nothing wrong with paying for an experts advice and experience if you feel the need. 

I think a person who is capable and knowledgeable enough to train a dog in the first place can do well

with this tool without spending a lot of extra money & time. You also don't have to spend a lot of money

on the collar it's self. I paid $79.00 for my Pet Ed version and it has worked perfect for over 2 years.


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## Germanshepherdlove (May 30, 2014)

So I've decided that we are going to do it  just going to wait awhile because of money (or lack of...)

I've spoken with some of this trainer's clients and they have nothing but great things to say about him.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...2-sit-means-sit-collar-enforced-training.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-theory-methods/172468-sit-means-sit.html

Old threads.


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## sourdough44 (Oct 26, 2013)

Germanshepherdlove said:


> So I've decided that we are going to do it  just going to wait awhile because of money (or lack of...)
> 
> I've spoken with some of this trainer's clients and they have nothing but great things to say about him.


 I've used an E collar over the years, somewhat sparingly and mostly with Labs. My Dogtra collar goes up to level 60, my niece willingly has done up to level 19 on herself. I used level 10, the few times I used it besides the 'vibration' feature.

I've seen those that don't like them, but have no qualms about using a switch. It's also key to train the dog on what is expected 1st, it's for when they choose not to obey a known command.

I also think the owner/dog bond is of utmost importance, not that training can't take place without it. I wouldn't use an e collar for nickel & dime training, just about only for the 'big stuff'.

Another option is to just buy your own 'Sport Dog' 425 collar, school up, and push ahead yourself with the training. You can check the local library or buy books and videos on training. 

I do agree, some depends on the dog. One usually wants more than one or 2 choices in the toolbox.


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## Germanshepherdlove (May 30, 2014)

sourdough44 said:


> I've used an E collar over the years, somewhat sparingly and mostly with Labs. My Dogtra collar goes up to level 60, my niece willingly has done up to level 19 on herself. I used level 10, the few times I used it besides the 'vibration' feature.
> 
> I've seen those that don't like them, but have no qualms about using a switch. It's also key to train the dog on what is expected 1st, it's for when they choose not to obey a known command.
> 
> ...


I really don't want to go out and do it on my own, as I have no ecollar experience. He knows basically every command he needs to know in his life. Except for some agility stuff, which we haven't gotten very far into yet. I just can't get him to focus out in distractions.he can be reallygreat and he can be really great in distractions. But sometimes he can't even sit in our own yard. He just gets so distracted. He's big, so I can't hold him if he's dragging me to another dog or somewhere else. 

I've been following the trainer we will be working with on fb and when I met him he seemed great. The dogs do not seem robotic at all. He is also very invested in his clients. He said his clients are clients for life. You basically pay a lump sum or make payments, and then you can do as many classes as you want for your dog's while life. 

And yes, he uses the lowest stim that the dog can feel.


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