# Breeding more for the moderate.



## Jack's Dad

Why don't more breeders shoot for the golden middle? More for moderate drives and higher thresholds. 
Seems to me that would help the breed considerably.

Is it because too many WL breeders are concerned about IPO?
Too many SL breeders for looks and maybe gait.

With both having too narrow a focus.

I'm not talking about GSDs being bred specifically to be pets or as some say Goldens in a GSD body.

Most people don't want the bad nerves and health problems that plague the breed. Don't a lot of them come from a too tight and narrow focus on specific traits?

What's the matter with middle of the road dogs? That's what most people need and want.


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## robk

I would say there are more balanced dogs out there than you think. I think you hear about the nut cases more because they are more dramatic. My female is quite boring. She has zero drama. Not dog aggressive. Not fear reactive. calm around town and in the presence of strangers. Take her to IPO and she fires up nicely then leaves the field with no fan fair. I think a lot of dogs are that way and you don't hear about them because there is really nothing of note to talk about.


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## David Winners

robk said:


> I would say there are more balanced dogs out there than you think. I think you hear about the nut cases more because they are more dramatic. My female is quite boring. She has zero drama. Not dog aggressive. Not fear reactive. calm around town and in the presence of strangers. Take her to IPO and she fires up nicely then leaves the field with no fan fair. I think a lot of dogs are that way and you don't hear about them because there is really nothing of note to talk about.


Except that they are good dogs : )

David Winners


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## Jack's Dad

robk said:


> I would say there are more balanced dogs out there than you think. I think you hear about the nut cases more because they are more dramatic. My female is quite boring. She has zero drama. Not dog aggressive. Not fear reactive. calm around town and in the presence of strangers. Take her to IPO and she fires up nicely then leaves the field with no fan fair. I think a lot of dogs are that way and you don't hear about them because there is really nothing of note to talk about.


I do think those involved in IPO tend to see it the way you do but you are surrounded by people who are training regularly and have the ongoing help of others. 

In thread after thread we hear the problems. Reactive, lunges, barks at everything, hides behind me, hates other dogs, doesn't like people, is not good around kids and then there are the health threads.

I see issues with GSDs in public all the time. Matter of fact I've never seen one in public that I would have wanted. Some of it I'm sure is the way the owners handle and do/don't train but a good portion must be genetic.

When I was growing up about the only seeing eye dogs anyone ever saw were GSD. Very few now.


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## Lucy Dog

Jack's Dad said:


> In thread after thread we hear the problems. Reactive, lunges, barks at everything, hides behind me, hates other dogs, doesn't like people, is not good around kids and then there are the health threads.


I'm sure some do, but I'd be willing to bet a high majority of these type of dogs come from breeders who aren't breeding for anything at all. They probably think they are breeding for a "moderate" dog, but really don't have a clue. Just breeding x purebred to y purebred for cute puppies at $500 a pop.


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## wolfstraum

Jack's Dad said:


> I do think those involved in IPO tend to see it the way you do but you are surrounded by people who are training regularly and have the ongoing help of others.
> 
> In thread after thread we hear the problems. Reactive, lunges, barks at everything, hides behind me, hates other dogs, doesn't like people, is not good around kids and then there are the health threads.
> 
> I see issues with GSDs in public all the time. Matter of fact I've never seen one in public that I would have wanted. Some of it I'm sure is the way the owners handle and do/don't train but a good portion must be genetic.
> 
> When I was growing up about the only seeing eye dogs anyone ever saw were GSD. Very few now.



I think most of the dogs to which are you referring are NOT bred for/by people in sport....you have to look at the numbers of GSDs bred in the US and the working line dogs bred by people who train is probably the smallest percentage of GSDs bred in this country. AKC does not publish the numbers any more ....but a few years ago, when GSDs were in 4th place - there were something like 40,000 - FORTY THOUSAND - litters of GSD pups registered in the US that year )Labs were first with OVER 100,000 litters that year) - now GSDs are in 2nd place......I bet the total percentage of working line, show line and ASL breeders make up around a quarter of those litters!! And the rest are puppy mill/back yard and just plain random breeders who think they can make some easy bucks because they own an AKC papered dog! And what you see on most forums are going to be owners of pups from the latter group...people who "just want a pet" and buy an inexpensive pup from the local paper, post it at the grocery store, craigs list etc....

Yes - I agree - most of these problems you mention ARE genetic....but I also know that almost every random GSD I see or meet owners of out in public are NOT from "reputable breeders" - I rarely see people out and about with dogs from good, well thought out breedings of any type.

Lee


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## Doc

Out of all the show and sport litters, what happens to the pups that can't cut the mustard? Do they end up in homes where owners have no clue how to handle the genetic base that these dogs carry? Or are they culled or placed some place they should never be in? Don't blame everything on breeders that don't title, show, or spend hours and tons of money training in a sporting venue for the problems in the breed today. Good grief, there is plenty of blame to spread around.


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## Vandal

> I rarely see people out and about with dogs from good, well thought out breedings of any type.


 I agree. I board dogs and it is a rarity for me to be impressed with any of the many GSDs that stay here. I almost never ask where they got the dog....because I know where they got it.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Doc said:


> Out of all the show and sport litters, what happens to the pups that can't cut the mustard? Do they end up in homes where owners have no clue how to handle the genetic base that these dogs carry? Or are they culled or placed some place they should never be in? Don't blame everything on breeders that don't title, show, or spend hours and tons of money training in a sporting venue for the problems in the breed today. Good grief, there is plenty of blame to spread around.


How about 99% of the blame?


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## simba405

Very small percentage of people would pay 1000+ for a pet. This forum is not a good consensus of GSD ownership. Facebook groups are a better gauge. All I see on there are badly bred dogs with a few nice shepherd thrown in.


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## Pax8

Vandal said:


> I agree. I board dogs and it is a rarity for me to be impressed with any of the many GSDs that stay here. I almost never ask where they got the dog....because I know where they got it.


Same exact thing over here. We get shepherds that are boarded here that are so nervy, anxious, and just plain aggressive that I'm one of the only people in the facility that can handle them. 

I asked a few people where they got their dogs from, but I stopped asking after about the sixth reply about what a cute puppy they had found on craigslist. 

The only shepherd I have loved that has come through is a Czech bred one owned by a man who does Schutzhund with it. It is the absolute sweetest, calmest, most solid dog I have ever met. And it came from an actual reputable breeder.


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## wolfstraum

Doc said:


> Out of all the show and sport litters, what happens to the pups that can't cut the mustard? Do they end up in homes where owners have no clue how to handle the genetic base that these dogs carry? Or are they culled or placed some place they should never be in? Don't blame everything on breeders that don't title, show, or spend hours and tons of money training in a sporting venue for the problems in the breed today. Good grief, there is plenty of blame to spread around.


Every breeder I know (of) who is a thoughtful knowledgeable breeder is VERY careful where their pups go! Good showline pups are usually ideal pets...and really, most working line pups go to pet homes as well...unless the breeder has a built in outlet by having their "own" club to place most of their pups, the majority of pups in every litter end up in pet homes....I am talking about breeders who train themselves, not those commercial ones who import all their breeding stock and pump out puppies constantly and take paypal without any screening process....has nothing to do with titles...

Lee


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## Doc

simba405 said:


> Very small percentage of people would pay 1000+ for a pet. This forum is not a good consensus of GSD ownership. Facebook groups are a better gauge. All I see on there are badly bred dogs with a few nice shepherd thrown in.


The dreaded Pet Breeder, if reputable ( which is streach for most in this form to comprehend) will get more than $1,000 for a pup and has a waiting list for every litter. The average pet owner loves healthy, balanced German shepherds that still has nerves and will wait until the breeder has what they want.


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## Doc

wolfstraum said:


> Every breeder I know (of) who is a thoughtful knowledgeable breeder is VERY careful where their pups go! Good showline pups are usually ideal pets...and really, most working line pups go to pet homes as well...unless the breeder has a built in outlet by having their "own" club to place most of their pups, the majority of pups in every litter end up in pet homes....I am talking about breeders who train themselves, not those commercial ones who import all their breeding stock and pump out puppies constantly and take paypal without any screening process....has nothing to do with titles...
> 
> Lee


So are you saying every WL ( which really should be called Sport Line because "working line" wasn't about training to score points in some venue) is a reputable breeder?? And that Sport Line dogs are always placed In pet homes and the owners never have problems dealing with the nerve and thresholds of these highly specific bloodlines that are selected and bred for biting to score points?


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## Pax8

Doc said:


> So are you saying every WL ( which really should be called Sport Line because "working line" wasn't about training to score points in some venue) is a reputable breeder?? And that Sport Line dogs are always placed In pet homes and the owners never have problems dealing with the nerve and thresholds of these highly specific bloodlines that are selected and bred for biting to score points?


Breeders of working or show dogs are much more likely to be reputable because people knowledgeable about the breed hold them to certain standards, namely being of good health and sound temperament. People are also less likely to have trouble handling a dog that comes from a reputable working or show breeder because the breeders take great care to screen the homes the dogs go into to make sure they are appropriate, help the new owners choose (or choose for them) a puppy with the appropriate drives and temperament for their situation whether that be sport, working, or family pet, and follow up to keep track of the dog's progress.

Just because a dog is bred with solid enough nerves and temperament to learn to bite and hold in a sport does not mean that the dog is out of control or unmanagable. It just means that they have a solid base to build them into whatever kind of dog you want, whether that be a sport, working, or family dog. 

Now, are these dogs sometimes placed in homes that are not a correct fit? Yes, but it is usually for a concrete reason. Not because the dog is "unmanageable" but because the family was not prepared, they had a change in their life situation (in which case a good reputable breeder will take the dog back), or very rarely the dog's temperament was just not what was appropriate for their situation. Does every working dog of this type belong in a pet home? No, some just have too much drive or too low thresholds for a basic family home, but that is why having a good breeder is so important - they are ideally extremely experienced in finding the perfect temperament to fit you situation and your needs.

I have come across countless owners that have problems with their aggressive, hyperactive, nervy, anxious, unstable GSD's and 100% of them have been from BYB's. People who either do not care or do not have the knowledge to breed sound, stable dogs and place them in appropriate homes.


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## simba405

Doc said:


> The average pet owner loves healthy, balanced German shepherds that still has nerves and will wait until the breeder has what they want.


IMO you are 100% wrong. What average pet owners love is price/value.


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## LifeofRiley

Pax8 said:


> I have come across countless owners that have problems with their aggressive, hyperactive, nervy, anxious, unstable GSD's and 100% of them have been from BYB's. People who either do not care or do not have the knowledge to breed sound, stable dogs and place them in appropriate homes.


I found this particular quote interesting because I have fostered a lot GSDs and, according to this forum, all GSDs that wind up in a shelter are from BYBs, yet I would not label any of my GSD fosters in the way you describe, i.e. aggressive, hyperactive, nervy, anxious, unstable. 

I can say that most, if not all, lacked confidence upon arrival. But, they all really responded to being in a home that was focused on bringing out the best in them. GSDs, in particular, really seem to want to please you once they trust you. 

There was one dog that was extremely fearful of everything (body shaking, shut-down type of reaction) and even that dog wound up being fine once he learned that he could trust his foster home, and later new owner. That dog had a particularly harsh life prior to rescue. He had never seen the outside of a cage. So, it was great to see him learn that the world outside of the cage was not a scary place, rather a place for fun and exploration.


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## Pax8

simba405 said:


> IMO you are 100% wrong. What average pet owners love is price/value.


Yes. I know several average pet owners who have skipped from BYB to BYB to pick up a pup immediately. Or for the cheaper price. Average owners usually do not consider the impact that genetics makes on the way a dog develops. To most, a dog is a dog.


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## HarleyTheGSD

I have a "moderate" type DDR/WGSL male, who has medium tug and prey drive. He does not have a lot of drive for work either. Between him and my BYB neutered male, my BYB dog has 90% more "drive" for work. I can heel with him in the yard for hours without him becoming bored with the work. He _does_ have more temperament issues, though. 

When I decide to get another pup, I definitely want a dog with intensity and very high drive. I will be doing Schutzhund, so an intense, high drive dog would be ideal for me.


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## Pax8

LifeofRiley said:


> I found this particular quote interesting because I have fostered a lot GSDs and, according to this forum, all GSDs that wind up in a shelter are from BYBs, yet I would not label any of my GSD fosters in the way you describe, i.e. aggressive, hyperactive, nervy, anxious, unstable.
> 
> I can say that most, if not all, lacked confidence upon arrival. But, they all really responded to being in a home that was focused on bringing out the best in them. GSDs, in particular, really seem to want to please you once they trust you.
> 
> There was one dog that was extremely fearful of everything (body shaking, shut-down type of reaction) and even that dog wound up being fine once he learned that he could trust his foster home, and later new owner. That dog had a particularly harsh life prior to rescue. He had never seen the outside of a cage. So, it was great to see him learn that the world outside of the cage was not a scary place, rather a place for fun and exploration.


Not all GSD's in rescue are from BYB. But I would say the vast majority. I will admit, my view is probably a bit skewed. I don't have much experience with GSD rescue. Most of my experience is in meeting clients who have bought a BYB GSD that has an unstable temperament and it ends up being my job to help them learn to manage it.

From what I have gathered, it also depends on what avenue of rescue. I've come across several lovely GSD's in breed specific rescue. But breed specific rescue, IME does stick to the most adoptable of their chosen breed. So most often the most genetically unstable end up in places like the city shelters, where I have friends that tell me about how dangerous many of the GSD's they get can be. As sad as it makes me, I've gone to work with them several times, and they tend to be right. For whatever reason, the GSD's are the most likely to aggress the workers and display other intense behavioral problems.

On the bright side, there are always exceptions. One of my friends was able to adopt a four month old UKC pedigree GSD pup from the city shelter with a rather impressive schutzhund history on both parents' sides. The owners bought her, couldn't handle her, then just dropped her off at the shelter with a folder containing her papers. Last I checked, the pup is excelling at schutzhund training.  

My biggest problem with people who have BYB dogs and tell me that their dog turned out fine, so BYB's can't be all that bad tend to miss that fact that their dog may have turned out well, but there are likely several others in the litter that will be too unstable for a home, will be given up because the person wasn't actually ready for a dog, or will die of health complications way before its time. I'm not saying that you're saying this by any means, I just wanted to point out that it is something I hear often from people who have a BYB dog that turned out alright. For every great BYB dog, there are generally five or six others that won't make it or will not be in an appropriate home to manage their sketchy genetics.


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## my boy diesel

*IMO you are 100% wrong. What average pet owners love is price/value.*
agreed!
the average pet owner says things like 
'i dont care about papers i am not showing the dog' and they merrily skip off to craigslist or kiji and purchase whatever dog they see first at a good price
and to the average pet owner $200-400 is a good price
over $400 and it is too expensive for the average owner
no matter what the breed btw


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## my boy diesel

*There was one dog that was extremely fearful of everything (body shaking, shut-down type of reaction) and even that dog wound up being fine once he learned that he could trust his foster home, and later new owner. That dog had a particularly harsh life prior to rescue. He had never seen the outside of a cage. So, it was great to see him learn that the world outside of the cage was not a scary place, rather a place for fun and exploration.*
curious since you brought this up
wonder how many dogs from this forum would fare if ripped from their families and placed in a kennel with 30 or 40 other barking dogs and then poked and prodded
had fake hands shoved in their faces
and then stuck out on an adoption floor??
wonder how many of them would be quaking messes before it is over with??

you cannot automatically label every shelter dog byb 
especially if viewed under those circumstances described above!


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## lalachka

my boy diesel said:


> *IMO you are 100% wrong. What average pet owners love is price/value.*
> agreed!
> the average pet owner says things like
> 'i dont care about papers i am not showing the dog' and they merrily skip off to craigslist or kiji and purchase whatever dog they see first at a good price
> and to the average pet owner $200-400 is a good price
> over $400 and it is too expensive for the average owner
> no matter what the breed btw



That was my thinking and that's how I got my dog. But now, after everything I learned I will go to a breeder. I think most people, after having their first dog, understand why good breeding matters.


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## my boy diesel

oh i forgot to add convenience
the average owner wants what they want when they want it
and they dont want to have to search too hard either
you wont have a litter for 6 mos? 
well then off to the pet store that sells puppies for me!
or as i said in my last post
craigslist and kiji or the news paper if anyone still reads them

many average owners figured out too that rescuing and adopting are much cheaper and more convenient so there is that too


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## wolfstraum

Doc said:


> So are you saying every WL ( which really should be called Sport Line because "working line" wasn't about training to score points in some venue) is a reputable breeder?? And that Sport Line dogs are always placed In pet homes and the owners never have problems dealing with the nerve and thresholds of these highly specific bloodlines that are selected and bred for biting to score points?


don't put words in my mouth (or post).....I specifically said 

_Every breeder I know (of) who is a thoughtful knowledgeable breeder_

Not "every WL" 

I think way too many people have jumped on the bandwagon of WL dogs, breed without understanding pedigrees, breed based on recognizable/popular names, breed purchased titled dogs etc merely to sell high priced pups and know very little about balance and character....

I also did NOT say "_always_ placed in pet homes"... almost every dog that I have bred is in a companion home....even those dogs who are "sport" titled - and I have bred titled dogs in every litter - IPO/SchH as well as many titled and competitive in AKC Ob, Agility, Rally, Flyball, Herding (both HGH and smaller flocks), Narcotics and Patrol LE K9, SAR - and several females I bred have also produced dogs titled and competitive at high levels of sport - but still are companion dogs....

A good dog that is carefully bred can work for real, do IPO as a sport and be a companion dog....unfortunately breeders like this are far far far outnumbered by people breeding to sell pups for pet homes and marketing on key phrases like "old fashioned" "large" "rare colors", intentionally being bred with mixed types to hit every market, alongside every other plain old BYB with no clue.

Twisting around what I said adds nothing constructive, and adversarial comments just take the discussion off on a long winding non productive argument.

Lee


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## lalachka

my boy diesel said:


> oh i forgot to add convenience
> the average owner wants what they want when they want it
> and they dont want to have to search too hard either
> you wont have a litter for 6 mos?
> well then off to the pet store that sells puppies for me!
> or as i said in my last post
> craigslist and kiji or the news paper if anyone still reads them
> 
> many average owners figured out too that rescuing and adopting are much cheaper and more convenient so there is that too



Yes, for me this will be the hardest part. I want what I want right there and then.


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## LifeofRiley

my boy diesel said:


> curious since you brought this up
> wonder how many dogs from this forum would fare if ripped from their families and placed in a kennel with 30 or 40 other barking dogs and then poked and prodded
> had fake hands shoved in their faces
> and then stuck out on an adoption floor??
> wonder how many of them would be quaking messes before it is over with??!


YES! My experience on this note echoes a post Jean made years ago about everything all shelter/rescue dogs have to go through just to reach the adoption floor. Jean's post on this topic remains my favorite post ever from this forum... it just so resonated with my experience. I was new then, can't remember if it is was before or after I switched from lurker to member - but, it is quite possible that her post tipped me over to actually creating an account here and participating on this forum. 



my boy diesel said:


> you cannot automatically label every shelter
> dog byb especially if viewed under those circumstances described above


Oh no, if this was directed at my post, you got me wrong. I was being a bit sarcastic. In following this forum for many years, it seems to me that the general attitude is that dogs in shelters are BYB and therefore any temperament problems are automatically the result of bad genetics... my experience suggests that it is not that simple and is most likely not at all a productive view to take.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Doc said:


> So are you saying every WL ( which really should be called Sport Line because "working line" wasn't about training to score points in some venue) is a reputable breeder?? And that Sport Line dogs are always placed In pet homes and the owners never have problems dealing with the nerve and thresholds of these highly specific bloodlines that are selected and bred for biting to score points?


 
Whatever you gotta do to justify breeding pets bud . 
Tell me were all the "real" working dogs are coming from? All those ballanced pet breeders? 
Or maybe its those useless sport lines, all they can do is bite a sleeve for points... :help:


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## my boy diesel

lifeofriley no i was commenting about someone elses post, sorry!
i thought you were spot on!


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## LifeofRiley

Pax8 said:


> From what I have gathered, it also depends on what avenue of rescue. I've come across several lovely GSD's in breed specific rescue. *But breed specific rescue, IME does stick to the most adoptable of their chosen breed*. So most often the most genetically unstable end up in places like the city shelters, where I have friends that tell me about how dangerous many of the GSD's they get can be. As sad as it makes me, I've gone to work with them several times, and they tend to be right. For whatever reason, the GSD's are the most likely to aggress the workers and display other intense behavioral problems.


Re: the bolded part of your post. I have never foster volunteered for a breed-specific rescue. My experience is from all-breed/all dog shelter/rescue. It just so happens that a lot of GSDs have come to my home as a result of those activities.


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## Pax8

LifeofRiley said:


> Re: the bolded part of your post. I have never foster volunteered for a breed-specific rescue. My experience is from all-breed/all dog shelter/rescue. It just so happens that a lot of GSDs have come to my home as a result of those activities.


Different experiences. I've never been in your neck of the woods, so it sounds like things are different up there than maybe it is down here. Though it sounds like that may be for the better. If you have better experiences with stable adoptable shepherds in an all breed rescue, it gives me some hope that not all rescues are as dark as they can be down here.


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## Doc

The original "working line" German shepherd were herding dogs, family dogs, high threshold, strong nerve. If they weren't, they were eliminated. Their next "work" were ambalance dogs during WWI - the forerunner to Search and Rescue dogs. Neither of the working occupations involved scoring points biting a sleeve or hauling their rear down a field to jump on a body. 
It wasn't until the late 30s that the German shepherd was turned into an aggressive low threshold type dog by the Nazis. There purpose for the breed wasn't to work as in the past but rather patrol, and attack people. This divergent from its original purpose is reported to be a main contributor to Stephanitzs death according to his daughter.
In today's world, working line German shepherds are dominated by low thresholds, and adreniln driven animals. They have to be in order to succeed at their sport. Long forgotten in these lines are the high threshold, slow to anger, non biting lines that built this breed.


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## hunterisgreat

Doc said:


> The dreaded Pet Breeder, if reputable ( which is streach for most in this form to comprehend) will get more than $1,000 for a pup and has a waiting list for every litter. The average pet owner loves healthy, balanced German shepherds that still has nerves and will wait until the breeder has what they want.


The average pet owner doesn't know what nerves are and thinks it's cute their dog is scared of the tile floor


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## Doc

I am surprised that everyone knows so much about pet owners especially when you surround yourself with sport dog folks that eat, breath, and regurigatate the same false stories about German shepherds that do not score points biting a sleeve. Not everyone that owns a German shepherd into spending thousands of dollars and years seeing if their dog can chase "the bad guy", sit in front of a tee pee and bark,k and knock some "decoy" off their feet. The "test of the breed" has turned into a circus. And the natural instinct of the breed has been replaced with training a dog to react, not doing what is natural for the breed.


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## hunterisgreat

Doc said:


> I am surprised that everyone knows so much about pet owners especially when you surround yourself with sport dog folks that eat, breath, and regurigatate the same false stories about German shepherds that do not score points biting a sleeve. Not everyone that owns a German shepherd into spending thousands of dollars and years seeing if their dog can chase "the bad guy", sit in front of a tee pee and bark,k and knock some "decoy" off their feet. The "test of the breed" has turned into a circus. And the natural instinct of the breed has been replaced with training a dog to react, not doing what is natural for the breed.


I test my dogs in a way probably more palatable to you. Yes we do protection work, but in addition to IPO (and I don't care how any points we get. I trial if I think we'll pass, even if I think that will be 70, 70, 70). I also many tests unrelated or even counterproductive to IPO. Suitwork, muzzle work, hard surface tracking, moving on to trailing now, take them in public, take them off shore in heavy seas, have kids handle them, watch them interact with other animals of all types and sizes. All tests. 

And they are pets who sleep in my bed


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## Yoshi

hunterisgreat said:


> The average pet owner doesn't know what nerves are and thinks it's cute their dog is scared of the tile floor


True. With the people I know they don't care about performance, titles, work-ability etc. They are all average pet owners and the only thing they really care about is price and health. So long as it looks like the breed they don't care about the parents or it's pedigree. They assume that all have the same generic temperament.


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## onyx'girl

Doc, when is the last time you were on the training field to overhear the conversations of "sport dog folks that eat, breath, and regurigatate the same false stories about German shepherds that do not score points biting a sleeve"?


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## carmspack

onyx'girl said:


> Doc, when is the last time you were on the training field to overhear the conversations of "sport dog folks that eat, breath, and regurigatate the same false stories about German shepherds that do not score points biting a sleeve"?


It's called the forum .
Where SAR and detection and any other use of dogs are demoted


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## hunterisgreat

carmspack said:


> It's called the forum .
> Where SAR and detection and any other use of dogs are demoted


Biting is the crowd pleaser lol. We have some bed bug detection dogs at our club. I'd love to do something like that lol. Too scared of bringing a bedbug home to try though lol


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## carmspack

moderate , in the subject line , is not , should not be understood to be limited or watered down . Drive should be strong and clear , controllable .
Versatility and utility . The career path is chosen by whoever is the user of the dog . A dog could have been -- fill in the blanks -- but the same dog could have been any number of other things .


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## Merciel

I really don't think knowledgeable breeders of _whatever_ stripe -- show, sport, working, "pet" -- who prioritize health, temperament, and longevity are to blame for the problems that plague this breed. Infighting among the camps is a waste of time.

As long you're turning out healthy, behaviorally sound dogs who can live without undue pain and stress, great, awesome, I've got no problem with what you're doing. I might not personally want your dogs, but I'm not going to complain that they're out there for the people who do.

By the same token, though, I'm not a fan of breeding toward "moderation," although I think this is just me being persnickety about wording.

I want to see programs breeding toward _excellence_. Excellence in health, excellence in temperament, excellence in longevity. Too often I think "moderation" gets used as a fig leaf to cover mediocrity, and there's where I take issue with it.


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## Doc

For the most, and there are a handful of exceptions, the crowd at clubs are snobs that don't give you the time of day unless of course you purchased a dog from one of the trainers. They are closed minded and know very little about the history of the breed. They poo poo any dog that doesn't have certain bloodlines and have no interest in outsiders.
I think it is wonderful when a German shepherd is versatile and can run in all cliques. Unfortunately, there isn't many of those dogs around.


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## hunterisgreat

Our club is not like that. Not a single dog is the product of another club members breeding. Very few are even WL GSDs. 

In a GSD I want *high thresholds* with *high, balanced drives*... *exceptional nerve* and *high aggression*. In both cases it's the former that enables the latter and still makes a perfect companion dog and/or working dog


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## GatorDog

Doc said:


> For the most, and there are a handful of exceptions, the crowd at clubs are snobs that don't give you the time of day unless of course you purchased a dog from one of the trainers. They are closed minded and know very little about the history of the breed. They poo poo any dog that doesn't have certain bloodlines and have no interest in outsiders.
> I think it is wonderful when a German shepherd is versatile and can run in all cliques. Unfortunately, there isn't many of those dogs around.


Where do assume that? No one in the club that I belong to is even a breeder...Most of these dogs aren't even related, and if they are, it is distant.


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## Doc

hunterisgreat said:


> Our club is not like that. Not a single dog is the product of another club members breeding. Very few are even WL GSDs.
> 
> In a GSD I want *high thresholds* with *high, balanced drives*... *exceptional nerve* and *high aggression*. In both cases it's the former that enables the latter and still makes a perfect companion dog and/or working dog


Then we have more in common than most would think. I don't care for high aggression. But if it controlled by strong nerve, I can be open to being around it


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## SuperG

In response to the OP's original query..." What's the matter with middle of the road dogs? That's what most people need and want."

IMHO, I believe the GSD has evolved exactly as intended....shaped by the human hand and desire at any given point in history. If we can agree that the GSD was originally bred to do their job of herding sheep and protecting flocks from predators then we can start at that point. It seems the first falling out on this original characteristic was when the human decided that the GSD should not only be bred for it's working characteristics but should also be bred to display a standardized appearance....I am fairly certain this compromised the GSD's working ability to a slight degree as the premium on working characteristics was now lessened by the goal of a standardized appearance of the dog.....all crafted by the human hand as I suggested earlier. The original task for which a GSD was so proficient at and served the human is long since gone....does that mean a GSD cannot herd?..no, but not nearly as well or common as the dog once could. The working ability of the original GSD has been utilized in many other ways to serve the human as we "evolved..such as police work, military work, SAR, messenger dogs in trench warfare, guide dogs, personal protection and so on. In essence, the GSD has been "guided" in it's evolution to serve the human's needs.

There are purists out there in the GSD community which strive to bring the GSD back to it's roots somewhat...kind of like heirloom tomatoes I guess. The problem is the GSD breed has been so bastardized over the past century or so that today's version is pretty much exactly what you want....a middle of the road dog or less....nothing like it's ancestors excepting some innate characteristics which have yet to have been completely bred out of the dog.

I would like to think that the self serving human will never breed out the intelligence of the GSD because if they do, the GSD will be just another dog.

SuperG


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## Doc

GatorDog said:


> Where do assume that? No one in the club that I belong to is even a breeder...Most of these dogs aren't even related, and if they are, it is distant.


I am not assuming, just speaking from experience. It's always refreshing to walk to the car and see a club member kicking and swatting his dog because it didn't perform up to the owners expectations.


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## lalachka

Doc said:


> I am not assuming, just speaking from experience. It's always refreshing to walk to the car and see a club member kicking and swatting his dog because it didn't perform up to the owners expectations.



This has got to be a 'one in a blue'. There are people torturing their animals In the privacy of their own homes too.


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## carmspack

"breeders of _whatever_ stripe -- show, sport, working, "pet" 
problem is that there should be no "stripe" . A well bred , moderate dog defined as not hyper active unbalanced , GSD should be able to have proper functional conformation (not as rewarded in show) , have proper versatile useful drives for work which enable work and/or sport , and be a companion for home and family . ONE , all in one breeding consideration. Not specifically for pet which considers essentially not much , tests for not much , no bar or standard , dictates of the marketplace . Not specifically for show because that is a horse without a rider just running away -- a subset with little original workability because it has been neglected - inconvenient ordeal . (see the German video that I posted a while ago). The narrator says they are delusional.
Work , well this is a working breed. Whether the dog is used for work is a mute point - it must however be bred for work. 

I am with the hunter guy when he says "In a GSD I want *high thresholds* with *high, balanced drives*... *exceptional nerve* and *high aggression*. In both cases it's the former that enables the latter and still makes a perfect companion dog and/or working dog "

To allay fears about the high aggression , that is not indiscriminate aggression -- it is power under self control. 
To be there when needed , escalate as needed, not abandon the situation in the interest of self . Don't start it , but do finish it.


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## David Winners

Doc said:


> I am not assuming, just speaking from experience. It's always refreshing to walk to the car and see a club member kicking and swatting his dog because it didn't perform up to the owners expectations.


If this happened anywhere I have ever trained, things would have gotten very serious, very quickly. They would not be back to train, and they may not have a dog much longer.

I'm sorry your experience has taken you to places like this with people as you describe. I can say that IME, it is far from normal.

David Winners


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## Jack's Dad

Well my original thought was that breeds usually rise and fall based on the likes of those in power. The ASL, WGSL, and the WL all look very different even though they are all GSDs.

That did not happen because of BYB dogs. It happened because of a different focus on specific traits or in this case I'm just talking about looks.
BYB dogs are based on the direction the breed takes in general. 

I just have a hard time understanding how individuals who maybe throw a couple of dogs together to make a few bucks (even if there are thousands of them) can dictate the trend of the GSD.

The fact that they don't have any specific goal in mind with their dogs makes me think they can't really influence the trend that much because as a group what they produce will be different.

Not only that but all the dogs from any casual breeding can't all be bad.

At some point in the history of the breed there had to be a decline in the stock that BYBs were purchasing to breed.

If a breeder wanted nothing but really low threshold dogs, how many generations would it take? If a whole trend toward low threshold dogs became popular how long would it take for those dogs to reach the BYB stage. I would think not too long.


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## carmspack

The GSD is NOT for everyone . Please select the breed which best suits your needs.


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## lalachka

carmspack said:


> The GSD is NOT for everyone . Please select the breed which best suits your needs.



Side gsd is supposed to be versatile, family dog and worker, then what do you mean by this?

And what needs does an average person today have? Most don't have farms, they live 'working sleeping' life. So it all comes down to personal preference for the most part. 

I grew up with this dog and I love them, or I love the way it looks, or I love their reputation. 

How do you think choices should be made today?


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## David Winners

carmspack said:


> The GSD is NOT for everyone . Please select the breed which best suits your needs.


THIS! X10


David Winners


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## Freestep

Doc said:


> I am surprised that everyone knows so much about pet owners especially when you surround yourself with sport dog folks that eat, breath, and regurigatate the same false stories about German shepherds that do not score points biting a sleeve.


 Pet owners are my bread and butter. I see them all day, every day, and they run the gamut. Some are willing to pay $2500 for a pet, but most simply want a bargain. Most are not equipped to handle a high-drive, high-energy, low-threshold, reactive GSD. And most have absolutely no clue what makes a breeder a "good" breeder, as opposed to a BYB. They are easily fooled by good salesmanship. 



Doc said:


> For the most, and there are a handful of exceptions, the crowd at clubs are snobs that don't give you the time of day unless of course you purchased a dog from one of the trainers. They are closed minded and know very little about the history of the breed. They poo poo any dog that doesn't have certain bloodlines and have no interest in outsiders.


 How many different clubs have you been to? This was not my experience; I've trained with several different clubs and organizations in the past and had mostly good experiences. While some clubs are a little standoffish until they get to know you, every one I have trained with takes each dog on its own merits and doesn't poo-poo anything. I was once training a GSD who really did not have what it takes to be a good IPO dog, and yet the club was very kind to me. 

I think it also depends on your attitude and approach. I was there to learn and gain experience, and I didn't have any delusions about my dog's ability (or lack thereof). I'm sure that if you come breezing into the club thinking your dogs are better than everyone else's, it may not be well taken.



Merciel said:


> By the same token, though, I'm not a fan of breeding toward "moderation," although I think this is just me being persnickety about wording.
> 
> I want to see programs breeding toward _excellence_. Excellence in health, excellence in temperament, excellence in longevity. Too often I think "moderation" gets used as a fig leaf to cover mediocrity, and there's where I take issue with it.


 I think that may just be semantics. When I think of "moderation", I see it as a good thing, because so much of what GSD breeding has become is breeding to extremes. Physical extremes in the show world and temperament extremes in the sport world. Most people cannot handle an "extreme" dog, and I personally wouldn't want one, unless he's "extremely" calm, biddable, and solid in temperament. 

In GSD breeding, so often the "golden middle" is a code word for mixing working and show lines. I'm not against doing that, but it must be done with extreme care by people who know what they are doing. So many people who call themselves "breeders" think that mixing the lines is a great idea, but they don't really understand pedigrees or the way things actually shake out when mixed together. It's not like mixing paint, where you add a little of this and a little of that until you get the color you want. It's more like chemistry, where certain elements react with other elements; certain things are neutralizers and others are synergists, totally unexpected compounds can occur, certain combinations create toxic gasses, and certain combinations can be explosive. If you don't know your chemistry, you could be making a bomb.


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## martemchik

carmspack said:


> The GSD is NOT for everyone . Please select the breed which best suits your needs.


I agree with this 100%, except most of us live in America or Canada where the only thing that limits what you can and can't have is your checkbook.


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## lesslis

Wow doc in all sincerity feel bad thats your experience. If thats all I saw would feel the same. Fortunately our club is not like that and abuse not allowed or tolerated. Plus I have a big mouth and can get pretty nasty if I saw such intentional crap.


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## my boy diesel

*I am surprised that everyone knows so much about pet owners especially when you surround yourself with sport dog folks that eat, breath, and regurigatate the same false stories about German shepherds that do not score points biting a sleeve.
*
perhaps some here do but the majority of us are regular folks 
regular pet owners
the exceptions are the ones out there doing sch 
IMO

*It's called the forum .
Where SAR and detection and any other use of dogs are demoted*
this always amazes me 
this forum is a microcosm and not typical of the world in general
there are many more folks on this planet than the handful who post here

doc if you are using this forum as an example of real life and how people in general behave or the dogs they purchase or adopt 
no wonder your views are skewed!


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## lalachka

martemchik said:


> I agree with this 100%, except most of us live in America or Canada where the only thing that limits what you can and can't have is your checkbook.



Are you saying that if this wasn't the case you'd still be one of the owners for who this breed was made for? Or you'd have a diff breed?


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## Jax08

Doc said:


> I am not assuming, just speaking from experience. It's always refreshing to walk to the car and see a club member kicking and swatting his dog because it didn't perform up to the owners expectations.


ok..not denying that does happen but I've seen "pet owners" do the same. I've watched a woman reef the **** out of her dog at an AKC Rally MATCH. A Match! For Rally Novice! All because the dog was paying more attention to her husband outside the ring than her inside the ring.

So let's not make sweeping generalizations on IPO club members.


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## Blanketback

martemchik said:


> I agree with this 100%, except most of us live in America or Canada where the only thing that limits what you can and can't have is your checkbook.


Yup - and don't forget to add the convenience of dumping the unwanted puppy at the shelter when it gets to be too much.


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## carmspack

"where the only thing that limits what you can and can't have is your checkbook. "

not here ! Your cheque book would not influence me . Not to obtain an animal and not to guide breeding decisions.


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## martemchik

carmspack said:


> "where the only thing that limits what you can and can't have is your checkbook. "
> 
> not here ! Your cheque book would not influence me . Not to obtain an animal and not to guide breeding decisions.


That's great for you and I really respect breeders that do that. Then those people just go down the road to the next breeder, or the next. Someone will sell you a dog. The reality is, that the reason BYB exist is partially because people want the dog they want and there's no culture of accepting that some breeds just don't fit some lifestyles.

The breed and dogs in general have evolved. 99% of all dogs of all breeds aren't used for what they were originally intended for. So the romanticized idea that we need to have a breed just like the one developed in 1900 is unrealistic. Life, society, culture, have all evolved, why not the breed?


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## shepherdmom

lalachka said:


> Side gsd is supposed to be versatile, family dog and worker, then what do you mean by this?
> 
> And what needs does an average person today have? Most don't have farms, they live 'working sleeping' life. So it all comes down to personal preference for the most part.
> 
> I grew up with this dog and I love them, or I love the way it looks, or I love their reputation.
> 
> How do you think choices should be made today?


Exactly the GSD is a versatile dog. It fits many different lifestyles. That is part of the allure of a GSD. I don't work/sport my dogs. That doesn't mean I shouldn't have a GSD it just means I have to be more creative in ways to exercise them and keep their mind working.


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## robk

My one year old working line female is very balanced. She has been called a Zen dog before by a friend. 
Here she is relaxing at the lake with the kids;









And here she is at IPO;










Chillin at a ball game at only 4 months old;










At the tracking field;










It does not matter what you want to do with her. She is happy and relaxed in all circumstances and with any body. She is both a great pet that is good with kids and she can bring the heat in protection work. I can't see how a dog can be any more balanced.


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## lalachka

shepherdmom said:


> Exactly the GSD is a versatile dog. It fits many different lifestyles. That is part of the allure of a GSD. I don't work/sport my dogs. That doesn't mean I shouldn't have a GSD it just means I have to be more creative in ways to exercise them and keep their mind working.



On this forum it does. It's very self flattering to think you're the chosen one and this breed was created for you and others are not worthy. Whatever.


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## shepherdmom

> Originally Posted by Doc View Post
> The average pet owner loves healthy, balanced German shepherds that still has nerves and will wait until the breeder has what they want.





simba405 said:


> IMO you are 100% wrong. What average pet owners love is price/value.


As an almost average pet owner I'd say you are both right and both wrong. We do love price and value and we do love healthy balanced Shepherds. But I think a lot of us are looking for a connection with a dog. We find that connection then price and breeding both will go out the window. Oh and BTW our dogs are the best in the world. So don't bother to tell us different.


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## Pax8

shepherdmom said:


> As an almost average pet owner I'd say you are both right and both wrong. We do love price and value and we do love healthy balanced Shepherds. But I think a lot of us are looking for a connection with a dog. We find that connection then price and breeding both will go out the window. Oh and BTW our dogs are the best in the world. So don't bother to tell us different.


If you're on this forum, you're likely not the average pet owner though. The average pet owner that I experience in retail is one that see a pretty picture and then goes and gets the dog. Usually little to no research, no consideration of whether the dog is appropriate for them, they just want the dog and that's what they'll get. 

A person who comes on the forum like this is someone who is actively trying to connect with other owners and share and learn information to the benefit of their dogs. 

I've had six dog owners in the past three months wanting to dump their shepherds/shepherd mixes at the shelter because they "didn't know they would shed." 

These are the people that will go from person to person until they get that cheap $150 puppy that they want with no thought to why a breeder turned them down (in the unlikely event they even went to a breeder) or even if they have an idea of what kind of dog they're getting.

I had an entire package of private lessons because a woman bought a puppy at six weeks, thought it was cute that it chewed on her, and now at 14 weeks came to me because if it bites her one more time, she wants to drop it at the shelter. Unfortunately, THAT is the average pet owner in my experience.


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## Jack's Dad

It shouldn't make any difference what the average pet owner is or isn't.

If most GSDs were moderate, stable with good nerve and health and close to the standard then there would be a lot less being dumped.

German Shepherds weren't meant to bite without threat to them or their family and they were not bred to hide behind their owners back.

RobK,s pictures are what we need more of. My own WL Jack is like his dog other than that I do not do IPO but they are not typical of what is out and about in the public.

Dog people often hang around dog people and events so they don't see the nerve bags and unhealthy dogs that a good portion of the public owns.

Why do we need so many dogs with skin, digestion, hip problems along with the worse issues like DM and others?


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## Jack's Dad

Want to add that to me moderate does not mean mediocre.

Most people for example do not need a high drive, hyper, low threshold dog.

There are some uses for that type dog but they are minimal in the grand picture.


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## lalachka

A dog shouldn't be dumped, issues or not. I agree with everything you said but I don't agree with dumping because a dog was bred badly.

ETA meaning, you said that if gsds were bred right they wouldn't be dumped. They're sometimes dumped for dumb reasons, it's the owners, not the dogs.


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## Pax8

Jack's Dad said:


> Want to add that to me moderate does not mean mediocre.
> 
> Most people for example do not need a high drive, hyper, low threshold dog.
> 
> There are some uses for that type dog but they are minimal in the grand picture.


Very true. And well bred working/show lines are moderate - stable health and temperament. I've seen a couple working lines that produce that insanely low threshold, high drive dog, but they are few and far between, and I agree that they are not the ones that belong with an average pet owner.

I'm also taking moderate to mean just a healthy, stable, GSD capable of work.



Jack's Dad said:


> It shouldn't make any difference what the average pet owner is or isn't.


It shouldn't make any difference, but it does. Because the average (uneducated) pet owner is the one that drives the BYB industry. Not to say there are never any faults with well bred working/show line dogs because not everything is perfect, but the large majority of the anxious, bitey, hyperactive dogs are BYB. And we will continue to see a large portion of these animals as long as BYB have such an expansive market.


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## David Winners

lalachka said:


> On this forum it does. It's very self flattering to think you're the chosen one and this breed was created for you and others are not worthy. Whatever.


IMO, it's not about being part of some elite society and others just aren't worthy, whatever that means.

Someone wants a dog. They want it to just hang out at the house, eat cheap food, be healthy, protective, beautiful, obedient, and not take more than 20 minutes a day to maintain. Sorry. That's not a GSD. That's a unicorn, or might as well be.

People who aren't realistic about training and husbandry, through ignorance or delusion, are the problem. I wouldn't recommend any breed that is designed to work to these type people. Get a CKCS or Pug. If you want a companion that is satisfied with just being a companion, get a companion breed, not a dog designed to work 8 hours a day.

I think a GSD, even a WL GSD with high energy and drive, can be a great pet and be satisfied in a pet home. This is entirely contingent on the owner doing the right thing with the dog. Being a normal (lazy) pet owner doesn't make someone a bad person. It just makes them a poor candidate as a GSD owner.

I'm not speaking of anyone in particular, or anyone in this conversation.

David Winners


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## Blanketback

This is just from my own experience: the GSDs that I've seen being dumped were very rarely dumped because of poor breeding - they were dumped because their owners couldn't handle them. When I say "handle" I don't mean that the dogs had terrible temperaments and had to be managed, I mean that the dogs were untrained and had become too much to handle for their witless owners. This is the "average" GSD owner that I'm familiar with. Not the people on this board, that are happy to do things with their dogs - whether that be a certain sport, or any other activity. And raising our puppies with boundaries, and training them. They make horrible couch ornaments without exercise, and they don't come fully trained - this comes as a surprise to the "average" owners I've known.


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## lalachka

David, So if this breed was designed to work 8 hours a day, how much time do you think is suitable to be spent with it every day? How much of it should be exercise (running, playing), mild exercise (walking), training and just time spent together?

And I agree about someone getting a gsd with having an hour or less to spend on it


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

Doc said:


> The dreaded Pet Breeder, if reputable ( which is streach for most in this form to comprehend) will get more than $1,000 for a pup and has a waiting list for every litter. The average pet owner loves healthy, balanced German shepherds that still has nerves and will wait until the breeder has what they want.


I resemble this remark! Im not going to due schutzhund or IPO other then a BH or entry level. I do want a therapy dog ,a dog to vacation w/ us in a camper or tent. I want a dog to take to Dairy Queen ,handle the idiots who crowd them ,children without any supervision and all the other issues a society that does not believe in responsibility but does believe in litagation has. Personally having a solid nerved dog whose prime function is to be my companion is actually pretty demanding work.Im pretty average.


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## Pax8

lalachka said:


> David, So if this breed was designed to work 8 hours a day, how much time do you think is suitable to be spent with it every day? How much of it should be exercise (running, playing), mild exercise (walking), training and just time spent together?
> 
> And I agree about someone getting a gsd with having an hour or less to spend on it


If you don't mind me jumping in, I think that will depend on the dog. There's really not a standard amount of time someone should spend with a GSD simply because it is a GSD. They usually require more physical and mental stimulation than the average dog, but as individuals you can still come across laid back or high strung dogs. 

My previous GSD needed at least an hour and a half of exercise and another half hour of training every singe day to settle. My current one will be a couch potato if I let him. 

So while someone who gets a GSD should be prepared to provide higher than average physical and mental stimulation, it doesn't mean each individual dog will always end up needing the same amount.


----------



## lalachka

Pax8 said:


> If you don't mind me jumping in, I think that will depend on the dog. There's really not a standard amount of time someone should spend with a GSD simply because it is a GSD. They usually require more physical and mental stimulation than the average dog, but as individuals you can still come across laid back or high strung dogs.
> 
> 
> 
> My previous GSD needed at least an hour and a half of exercise and another half hour of training every singe day to settle. My current one will be a couch potato if I let him.
> 
> 
> 
> So while someone who gets a GSD should be prepared to provide higher than average physical and mental stimulation, it doesn't mean each individual dog will always end up needing the same amount.



Lol, no, i don't. You know why I asked)))) you were in that thread

Yes, that's what I think too. They need time and attention. I'd say a few hours a day. The % of exercise and idle time will differ but they all need lots of time every day.


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## Jack's Dad

So some seem to be saying that if there were no BYBs or clueless owners then the breed would be free or close to free of the health and temperament problems that exist.

I doubt it. Because I think the changes in structure, temperament etc.. come from the top down not the bottom up. MRL started a thread on how the back has changed over the years. It didn't change because of BYBs or clueless owner it changed because people with power decided that there were characteristics they liked and bred for it.

The changes in health are a by product of too close breeding to popular dogs for too long and too often. Happens in most breeds.


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## carmspack

asked - " So the romanticized idea that we need to have a breed just like the one developed in 1900 is unrealistic. "

thankfully some breeders don't think this - otherwise there wouldn't be the Fama's or the Buffy's who work anonymously "can do the work well all the time and not be so so. Protecting the Capitol is a huge responsibilty, and I need a worker." (the handler's comments http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...ack-buffy-badge-my-collar-breeding-wor-4.html) and all the other dogs who quietly go to work daily without incident , at airports , at big public events, securing dignitaries , business, customs -- and law enforcement with apprehension.

this is not romance --


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## martemchik

carmspack said:


> asked - " So the romanticized idea that we need to have a breed just like the one developed in 1900 is unrealistic. "
> 
> thankfully some breeders don't think this - otherwise there wouldn't be the Fama's or the Buffy's who work anonymously "can do the work well all the time and not be so so. Protecting the Capitol is a huge responsibilty, and I need a worker." (the handler's comments http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...ack-buffy-badge-my-collar-breeding-wor-4.html) and all the other dogs who quietly go to work daily without incident , at airports , at big public events, securing dignitaries , business, customs -- and law enforcement with apprehension.
> 
> this is not romance --


The romanticized idea that doc stated said that the dogs SHOULDN'T BITE PEOPLE. They're herding dogs. Please don't just quote me to try and prove me wrong by taking something out of context. It's in poor taste at this point.

My assumption is that a dog protecting the capitol...yet another advertisement for your kennel when one wasn't asked for...was trained to bite people. The dogs from 1900 weren't...that only started in the 1930's with the Nazi's remember.

You don't want to accept that plenty of breeders produce moderate dogs. It's either, one extreme, or another, and then there's 5 selected breeders in the middle (who all happen to be on this magical forum) that breed moderate perfect working dogs. Guess the hundreds of dogs that are military, K9, and SAR all come from those 5 kennels. How can the rest of us get a good dog?!?! They just don't exist...oh wait, I live with two. And neither is from one of those magical perfect kennels.


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## lalachka

The appeal of the gsds is the bite work. If they weren't the police dogs and bite dogs (and advertised and portrayed as these aggressive and protective dogs) half the people that have them today wouldn't be interested in them. 

This goes for the argument about what this breed was meant to be. What it was meant to be and what it became seems to be different.


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## Gretchen

Jack's Dad said:


> Why don't more breeders shoot for the golden middle? More for moderate drives and higher thresholds.
> Seems to me that would help the breed considerably.
> 
> Is it because too many WL breeders are concerned about IPO?
> Too many SL breeders for looks and maybe gait.
> 
> With both having too narrow a focus.
> 
> I'm not talking about GSDs being bred specifically to be pets or as some say Goldens in a GSD body.
> 
> Most people don't want the bad nerves and health problems that plague the breed. Don't a lot of them come from a too tight and narrow focus on specific traits?
> 
> What's the matter with middle of the road dogs? That's what most people need and want.


Good question, I've wondered this myself. I met a woman who only breeds part time and her litter was 3/4 showline and 1/4 working line, the pups had nice straight backs, but different gaits than my WL girl. They seem like they would have been a good dog temperament wise for our area, high density housing with small yards. I would have loved to get one of the pups, but my HOA would not allow it with our current GSD and cats.


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## martemchik

Every single person on this forum right now...spews hearsay. Unless you were there in 1900 to see the dogs that were used back then...you're retelling what someone else has told you or something that you read in a book. It's not firsthand experience, so no one can say they know what the original was like more than anyone else on this forum. Sorry, plain truth. So for anyone to say they “know” what the dogs were like before WWII, they don’t.

Therefore…the ideas are romanticized. Very few things are written sans bias and objective. Any firsthand account of a dog someone had 50 years ago…romanticized. We get it weekly on this forum about how people remember how great their 150lbs GSD was when they were five.


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## glowingtoadfly

When people go looking for a dog, it is the ideal that they want. Unless they intentionally rescue or rehab a dog.


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## Jack's Dad

martemchik said:


> *Every single person on this forum right now...spews hearsay. Unless you were there in 1900 to see the dogs that were used back then...you're retelling what someone else has told you or something that you read in a book.* It's not firsthand experience, so no one can say they know what the original was like more than anyone else on this forum. Sorry, plain truth. So for anyone to say they “know” what the dogs were like before WWII, they don’t.
> 
> Therefore…the ideas are romanticized. Very few things are written sans bias and objective. Any firsthand account of a dog someone had 50 years ago…romanticized. We get it weekly on this forum about how people remember how great their 150lbs GSD was when they were five.




So this would also be true for you? That would include everything before you were born. Aren't you about 25 or so now? So that's a lot of hearsay.


----------



## Doc

So I guess when Stephanitz's daughter is quoted as saying that what the Nazi did to the German shepherd contributed to his death is hearsay and romanticized?


----------



## shepherdmom

Pax8 said:


> If you're on this forum, you're likely not the average pet owner though. The average pet owner that I experience in retail is one that see a pretty picture and then goes and gets the dog. Usually little to no research, no consideration of whether the dog is appropriate for them, they just want the dog and that's what they'll get.
> 
> A person who comes on the forum like this is someone who is actively trying to connect with other owners and share and learn information to the benefit of their dogs.
> 
> I've had six dog owners in the past three months wanting to dump their shepherds/shepherd mixes at the shelter because they "didn't know they would shed."
> 
> I had an entire package of private lessons because a woman bought a puppy at six weeks, thought it was cute that it chewed on her, and now at 14 weeks came to me because if it bites her one more time, she wants to drop it at the shelter. Unfortunately, THAT is the average pet owner in my experience.



I don't think that is average pet owner either. I help w rescue and I see a lot of lame excuses sometimes but I also see a lot of good people who care about their dogs. Just look at how the pet industry as a whole has grown and how much people spend on their pets. 


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## David Winners

lalachka said:


> David, So if this breed was designed to work 8 hours a day, how much time do you think is suitable to be spent with it every day? How much of it should be exercise (running, playing), mild exercise (walking), training and just time spent together?
> 
> And I agree about someone getting a gsd with having an hour or less to spend on it


I think that depends entirely on the dog. I would have a hard time putting a number on the time spent with my dogs every day because I'm always interacting with them. They are a part of about everything I do. They get walked or run every day. They do detection every day. They work OB every day. But besides all that, they go places, we constantly interact, we play, we have tons of little things we do that engage the dog. 

If the dog is bored and misbehaving, the time spent is too low. The younger the dog, the more time it needs. I would say a minimum would be 30 minutes total engagement, 30 minutes exercise, 10 minutes grooming and 10 minutes feeding. This is totally generalizing and would be far under the requirements of some dogs. 

I guess my point is, if you don't enjoy working with your dog, why get a dog designed to work? You don't buy a tow truck to drive around unless you plan on using it to tow vehicles. It's not good for you or the dog to try and fit a square peg into a round hole just because the peg is pretty. 

David Winners


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## Blitzkrieg1

Doc said:


> So I guess when Stephanitz's daughter is quoted as saying that what the Nazi did to the German shepherd contributed to his death is hearsay and romanticized?


The Nazi's for all their evil also are also responsible for numerous feats of engineering and military advances that are still utilized today. So trying to use the word Nazi to denigrate todays WL GSD is pathetic. 

Why dont you look into Great Pyrs or Maremma's? High threshold, slow, non biting, all defense, will lie around all day and best of all they like sheep!

If the dogs your producing cant even bite a sleeve thats a pretty good indication that what you have is weak beyond redemption. There are many weak dogs that can bite a sleeve.


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## shepherdmom

Jack's Dad said:


> So some seem to be saying that if there were no BYBs or clueless owners then the breed would be free or close to free of the health and temperament problems that exist.
> 
> I doubt it. Because I think the changes in structure, temperament etc.. come from the top down not the bottom up. MRL started a thread on how the back has changed over the years. It didn't change because of BYBs or clueless owner it changed because people with power decided that there were characteristics they liked and bred for it.
> 
> The changes in health are a by product of too close breeding to popular dogs for too long and too often. Happens in most breeds.



100% agree. All the problems within a breed can not be blamed on byb if they could then some of the less popular breeds wouldn't be having so many similar issues. 


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## martemchik

Jack's Dad said:


> So this would also be true for you? That would include everything before you were born. Aren't you about 25 or so now? So that's a lot of hearsay.


Truth. It is. It's regurgitated info. But I've also not made a single comment about the breed before I was around. I just made the point that anyone that talks about "what something used to be like" and they weren't around back then, is just repeating a story...which is more than likely a romanticized/biased/subjective recount of what actually occurred.


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## martemchik

Doc said:


> So I guess when Stephanitz's daughter is quoted as saying that what the Nazi did to the German shepherd contributed to his death is hearsay and romanticized?


Not sure what this has to do with YOU knowing what the breed was like in 1900 and trying to tell everyone that it is different than it is today.

Again, another useless historical quote in the context of this discussion.


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## my boy diesel

*Not sure what this has to do with YOU knowing what the breed was like in 1900 and trying to tell everyone that it is different than it is today.*
:thumbup:

all anyone today can do really is presume based on what info is found on the internet


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## Doc

So all historical documentation is useless? All comments made by the experts of the time are to be discarded because? Since I talked to people that were in Germany during WWII my knowledge is tainted because I wasn't there?? I can't follow that logic.


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## my boy diesel

not discarded
but not handpicked to suit what you agree or want to see with and discarded by yourself what you dont agree with 

if you are going to use history and peoples accounts of what went on then you must use it all and find a balance it would seem to me :shrug:

using your example of a war for instance 
you could have a historian on both sides of a war 
and their accounts of that period of time would vary wildly according to which side won and which lost


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## Blanketback

David Winners said:


> I guess my point is, if you don't enjoy working with your dog, why get a dog designed to work?


This is what I'd like to ask all the "average" owners I know. I logged off so I could go swimming with my dog - and that's part of the appeal of the GSD to me: an active dog! I could take tiny survey of all the people I met there, and ask them if they have a dog languishing at home, lol. I did see one dog (a JRT) enjoying being out boating today. But I don't understand why people get active breeds if they're not active themselves.


----------



## martemchik

Doc said:


> So all historical documentation is useless? All comments made by the experts of the time are to be discarded because? Since I talked to people that were in Germany during WWII my knowledge is tainted because I wasn't there?? I can't follow that logic.


No...its not useless at all. But the bottom line about this subject is extremely subjective. It's very emotional and extremely difficult to compare.

So...a dog that you had 50 years ago, might hold a special place in your heart (emotionally) and therefore you have a higher opinion of it than a more recent dog that you might not have that emotional connection to. By the same logic...we tend to hold our own dogs in much higher regard than other dogs. It's just human nature. And although there are people that can be more objective than others...they're still biased and most will still spin their dogs in a better light than they would a dog they didn't own/raise.

I'm not calling your knowledge tainted...I'm calling it biased. You have one side of the story, one that is more than likely not written, and not backed up by other people that would've possibly seen the same dog/dogs.

Maybe its the way I'm reading it, or the way you're writing it, but many of your statements...although based on history...are opinions. Opinions are at their core subjective and biased. So what I'm saying is...that your opinion, is based off of the opinion of other people (that were around during WWII), who's opinion might've actually (but unlikely) to have been based on actual knowledge as even that generation is unlikely to have been around for the founding of the breed and have any idea of what the dogs were like in 1900.

Want to add...I purchased your book, and am very excited to get it and start reading it.

BTW...Stephanitz died in 1936 at the age of 72...that's a fairly good run for a person back then.


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## Vandal

I’m not sure what “moderate” means as it applies in this thread. I don’t think of dogs from years ago and think of them as moderate. And yes, I am talking about dogs I saw with my own eyes or trained or worked as the helper. They were not moderate, many were very driven, tough and powerful dogs. Even the show lines worked back then....meaning they would bite much the same way as the WLs are doing now.....shocking I know. If some of the WLs I am thinking of were here today, I imagine some people would call them “extreme”, only in a different way.

I think what all the dogs had back then in larger does was nerve strength and a protective instinct in the true sense of the term. YES, there were still crappy dogs back then...just like now. If we are talking about German show and working lines, a difference certainly exists between what they were like from the mid 70s until today. Much has changed and I would say mostly, the show line dogs have lost much of the social aggression that is part of the breed .....meaning the protective instinct. The nerves are not the same but they might appear to be okay because the dog’s don’t view the world with much suspicion nor are they as watchful of their human as they used to be. So, no suspicion, no stress, no need for rock solid nerves. They are easier for the average person to handle. 

That is different than a dog who has that protectiveness but also the nerve strength to go along with it. Overall, the breed now lacks fight drive. I also think many of the WL dogs do not possess a protective instinct in the real sense of the term. They might bark at people every now and then but I am talking about is something different. Even the way most achieve barking and guarding behavior in SchH now comes from another place in the dog. You can’t see fight drive unless there is a level of threat and enough of a challenge from the “bad guy” to raise the drives to that level. Nowadays, we mostly see very careful development of certain behaviors for IPO training. People don’t seem to care much about fight drive or protective instincts anymore or they confuse it with an actual weakness in temperament. I worked many dogs who came on the field ready to take you on, fought to stay in the front when they were driven and countered by driving into you or torqueing the sleeve, using their entire body to take control of the fight. They were very clear dogs who would escalate the fight as needed. Pure power, heart and courage. Some say the dogs still have that but the evidence of that is lacking to my eyes...and what I notice when I work dogs now..... when I compare to the dogs some years back. 

When I think back on the dogs I saw, trained, watched and worked in protection, I would not say they were dogs for average people who worked 12 hour days and had no time. They were often too smart for their owners as well and if they were not handled properly, would take over the household and would start to run things. If you didn’t give them something to do, they would find something to do . That, as I recall, seemed to be what caused the most issues with ownership but people were just as flaky back then as they are now. Wasn’t as easily fueled by the internet is all.

As for protection work. It is there to test much more than if a dog will bite. So MANY things are seen in the dogs when that work is done correctly. There is no better test of the dog if you ask me and is what I complain about the most as far as what has happened to SchH. To me, it is a real shame that we have lost so much of what was once a very important and meaningful test. I try not to keep harping on that and is why I don’t post much here anymore. People want to have fun doing what they like to do. I am not trying to ruin that for people . I just wish more could actually witness what I am talking about. The places to do that are few and far between now and that is a big loss for the breed.


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## my boy diesel

maybe that is why some folks like ginormous gsds
i have often seen it said here that even 70 or 80 lb gsds with a presence seem to be more like 100 lbs when people guess their weight!

and in our minds eye 
especially to a growing child
the dog must seem like a horse!!

*Opinions are at their core subjective and biased.*


----------



## NancyJ

David Winners said:


> I think that depends entirely on the dog. I would have a hard time putting a number on the time spent with my dogs every day because I'm always interacting with them. They are a part of about everything I do. They get walked or run every day. They do detection every day. They work OB every day. But besides all that, they go places, we constantly interact, we play, we have tons of little things we do that engage the dog.
> 
> If the dog is bored and misbehaving, the time spent is too low. The younger the dog, the more time it needs. I would say a minimum would be 30 minutes total engagement, 30 minutes exercise, 10 minutes grooming and 10 minutes feeding. This is totally generalizing and would be far under the requirements of some dogs.
> 
> I guess my point is, if you don't enjoy working with your dog, why get a dog designed to work? You don't buy a tow truck to drive around unless you plan on using it to tow vehicles. It's not good for you or the dog to try and fit a square peg into a round hole just because the peg is pretty.
> 
> David Winners


I think - this - we have a working breed and we expect it to spend a few minutes in the morning then quielty wait for us to work all day then spend some time going on a walk or whatever in the evening and not interact all day as I imagine the old farms dogs did..maybe that is not the suitable life for a working breed. 

Mine is definitely on the crazy side and we agree does not have 'genetic obedience', though he is most assuredly engaged and connected, but if I keep up some engagement during the day, it is all good. That touch of crazy means he just keeps working and working and working when asked, though when left unsupervised, usually gets into some kind of creative trouble.

By the same token, he was playing with a three year old toddler in my back yard. BALL! not once did he jump onto or bump into the child or grab at the ball in his hand....things he will do to my husband (I think trying to solicit play).......I think that essense is built into a good GSD, no matter how much drive and energy they have. I have seen it with others. They KNOW. They are gentle with little animals and little people...it is so hardwired.


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## lalachka

Blanketback said:


> This is what I'd like to ask all the "average" owners I know. I logged off so I could go swimming with my dog - and that's part of the appeal of the GSD to me: an active dog! I could take tiny survey of all the people I met there, and ask them if they have a dog languishing at home, lol. I did see one dog (a JRT) enjoying being out boating today. But I don't understand why people get active breeds if they're not active themselves.



It happens. I'm as lazy as they come, we got a dog on a whim, he's actually the reason I go outside every day, rain or snow, for a few hours. 
I take him everywhere I can, he's with me in the car now, unfortunately not too many places here are dog friendly. 

So yeah, sometimes the dog is the reason people become active. The way I look at it, there are many ways to get animals, all mine weren't planned, all but one cat was my daughter's idea and her nagging or her just bringing it home (turtle). And when they come into my home, I research and do whatever it takes to take care of them. And enjoy them in the process.


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## lalachka

The 'responsible' way of going about it doesn't guarantee the dog will be taken care of. That's what I'm trying to say.


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## lhczth

David and Anne, excellent posts. 

I had more, but I can't seem to put into words what I want to say.


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## David Winners

Take Fama for instance. I choose her because many know her history, and it is readily available if anyone is interested.

Fama was handled poorly before I got her. It was no one in particular that created her issues. She was a kennel dog in a high turnover kennels. She developed behavioral issues because people let her get away with things (new handlers) and several behaviors were self rewarding (kennel aggression, spinning, handler aggression on new handlers) .

Had she been placed in an experienced home at 8 weeks, these things would have never developed. She is a very stable dog with no real aggression issues. She was just a jerk because she learned that if she punked you out, she got to run things. Had she been placed in a novice home with no rules and training, she would probably be dumped at a shelter or worse. 

Drive, intensity, confidence, fearlessness, energy, intelligence, aggression. If you put them all together in one dog you have a great dog for the right person, and a liability for another.

I think a proper GSD is a strong dog, physically and mentally, and can be overwhelming for the uninitiated owner. Lala, I'm not referring to you. You stepped up and did the right thing. Not everyone can or will do the same.

David Winners


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## hunterisgreat

It's worth pointing our that in Germany, all breeding GSDs do SchH


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## lalachka

OK)))) I can't help it. I know no one is talking about me in particular but because it's the same scenario I can't keep quiet. I will try


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## Blanketback

lalachka said:


> I'm as lazy as they come, we got a dog on a whim, he's actually the reason I go outside every day, rain or snow, for a few hours. I take him everywhere I can...


Then you're not the the kind of owner I'd call "average" at all, because you're doing things with your dog. Whether you'd do them on your own or not isn't important - what's important is that you're doing something with your dog. Maybe a couch potato dog would have been a better choice for you, but who knows? Maybe this is exactly what you wanted and didn't know it?


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## Jack's Dad

hunterisgreat said:


> It's worth pointing our that in Germany, all breeding GSDs do SchH


Just for Martemchik what I am about to say is hearsay based on videos (The fat lady has began to sing thread) and numerous do titles matter threads.

A good many of those dogs look fearful and still were titled. So they are now free to contribute to the gene pool. So if those fearful genes are passed on down it won't be do to BYBs or clueless, incompetent owners who purchase the puppies.


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## Merciel

Doc said:


> So I guess when Stephanitz's daughter is quoted as saying that what the Nazi did to the German shepherd contributed to his death is hearsay and romanticized?


I don't know about "romanticized" (it sounds like the opposite of that), but yes, that is literally the definition of hearsay: a statement offered for the truth of the matter asserted, and offered by a person other than the one who said it.


----------



## Merciel

Jack's Dad said:


> A good many of those dogs look fearful and still were titled. So they are now free to contribute to the gene pool. So if those fearful genes are passed on down it won't be do to BYBs or clueless, incompetent owners who purchase the puppies.


Sure. But the videos are also out there for all the world to see. The dogs were tested, and the results of the test are available to other breeders and to educated puppy buyers who are trying to decide what they want.

I think that's all you can ask, really. The information is there. Anyone can access it. After that, it's up to people to decide how they want to use it.

If the titles aren't required, then you don't even have that much to go on. It's easy to puff up grand-sounding descriptions without any need for proof (however limited) at all.

Anyway, I will agree with you that you can't blame BYBs for choosing to use those dogs. But clueless owners? Eh, maybe. If you see those videos and buy puppies out of those dogs, then you get what you get.

But again, at least the information is there for people to make educated decisions if that's what they want to do.


----------



## onyx'girl

Jack's Dad said:


> Just for Martemchik what I am about to say is hearsay based on videos (The fat lady has began to sing thread) and numerous do titles matter threads.
> 
> A good many of those dogs look fearful and still were titled. So they are now free to contribute to the gene pool. So if those fearful genes are passed on down it won't be do to BYBs or clueless, incompetent owners who purchase the puppies.


well....those that don't do their diligent research deserve what they choose.


----------



## Jack's Dad

onyx'girl said:


> well....those that don't do their diligent research deserve what they choose.


Well now there is a good answer. What about breeder responsibility. After reading this thread apparently it is not required.

You should not need a degree in genetics to find a GSD that will fit into your family life and won't bite the kids next door. I've had four of them and they fit into my family life just fine but it was dumb luck.

If people need to do tons of research to get a decent dog then you might as well go to the shelters and save one.


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## lhczth

onyx'girl said:


> well....those that don't do their diligent research deserve what they choose.


No one deserves a frightened nervy reactive dog. No one. Anymore than that poor animal asked to be born and have to live its whole life in fear.


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## lhczth

Jack. :thumbup:


----------



## Jack's Dad

lhczth said:


> No one deserves a frightened nervy reactive dog. No one. Anymore than that poor animal asked to be born and have to live its whole life in fear.


Thank you for saying that.


----------



## lhczth

You and I posted at the same time.


----------



## onyx'girl

My response was from this, I should have bolded it in your quote:
"clueless, incompetent owners who purchase the puppies"

No, the dogs don't deserve it...but if people quit buying from those breeding the nervy reactive dogs, maybe they will quit breeding. We can only hope. It is up to the buyer to put the bad breeders out of business, and that can only be done with researching who they are buying from. Too easy to clik a buy now link on a fancy website.
No, you don't need a degree in genetics. But look at what is being produced by the dogs in the pedigrees or by the breeder is something.


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## Vandal

Ahem....excuse me for sounding harsh but......claiming that the dogs in that video were somehow "tested" is just absurdity at it's finest. There was NO test. Yet they still failed what has been considered for decades, to be THE character test for the GSD. When it is done right I mean.....not the crap that was demonstrated on that video.

I've attended more than one smaller event where the dogs did the same thing and were awarded KKL 1....RECOMMENDED for breeding. No one video taped though....so now what????


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## shepherdmom

onyx'girl said:


> well....those that don't do their diligent research deserve what they choose.



So for kids or neighbors that get attacked because someone didn't do due diligent research, too bad, karma? 


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## onyx'girl

"Clueless incompetent owner"....is to blame. I was responding to the quote from Jacksdad. 

If someone buys a pup, it then turns into a dog that is a liability, the owner is the one to be held responsible. The breeder is not involved whatsoever by that time.
As many have posted in this thread, this breed is not for just anyone. If you choose to own a GSD, then you should research the breed and know what you are getting into. That includes choosing the breeder wisely.


----------



## hunterisgreat

Vandal said:


> I’m not sure what “moderate” means as it applies in this thread. I don’t think of dogs from years ago and think of them as moderate. And yes, I am talking about dogs I saw with my own eyes or trained or worked as the helper. They were not moderate, many were very driven, tough and powerful dogs. Even the show lines worked back then....meaning they would bite much the same way as the WLs are doing now.....shocking I know. If some of the WLs I am thinking of were here today, I imagine some people would call them “extreme”, only in a different way.
> 
> I think what all the dogs had back then in larger does was nerve strength and a protective instinct in the true sense of the term. YES, there were still crappy dogs back then...just like now. If we are talking about German show and working lines, a difference certainly exists between what they were like from the mid 70s until today. Much has changed and I would say mostly, the show line dogs have lost much of the social aggression that is part of the breed .....meaning the protective instinct. The nerves are not the same but they might appear to be okay because the dog’s don’t view the world with much suspicion nor are they as watchful of their human as they used to be. So, no suspicion, no stress, no need for rock solid nerves. They are easier for the average person to handle.
> 
> That is different than a dog who has that protectiveness but also the nerve strength to go along with it. Overall, the breed now lacks fight drive. I also think many of the WL dogs do not possess a protective instinct in the real sense of the term. They might bark at people every now and then but I am talking about is something different. Even the way most achieve barking and guarding behavior in SchH now comes from another place in the dog. You can’t see fight drive unless there is a level of threat and enough of a challenge from the “bad guy” to raise the drives to that level. Nowadays, we mostly see very careful development of certain behaviors for IPO training. People don’t seem to care much about fight drive or protective instincts anymore or they confuse it with an actual weakness in temperament. I worked many dogs who came on the field ready to take you on, fought to stay in the front when they were driven and countered by driving into you or torqueing the sleeve, using their entire body to take control of the fight. They were very clear dogs who would escalate the fight as needed. Pure power, heart and courage. Some say the dogs still have that but the evidence of that is lacking to my eyes...and what I notice when I work dogs now..... when I compare to the dogs some years back.
> 
> When I think back on the dogs I saw, trained, watched and worked in protection, I would not say they were dogs for average people who worked 12 hour days and had no time. They were often too smart for their owners as well and if they were not handled properly, would take over the household and would start to run things. If you didn’t give them something to do, they would find something to do . That, as I recall, seemed to be what caused the most issues with ownership but people were just as flaky back then as they are now. Wasn’t as easily fueled by the internet is all.
> 
> As for protection work. It is there to test much more than if a dog will bite. So MANY things are seen in the dogs when that work is done correctly. There is no better test of the dog if you ask me and is what I complain about the most as far as what has happened to SchH. To me, it is a real shame that we have lost so much of what was once a very important and meaningful test. I try not to keep harping on that and is why I don’t post much here anymore. People want to have fun doing what they like to do. I am not trying to ruin that for people . I just wish more could actually witness what I am talking about. The places to do that are few and far between now and that is a big loss for the breed.


Having read most of your posts I've come across with a careful eye, as a person who regularly does helper work and in my short experience have personally worked up to world level sport dogs, current police dogs, byb dogs, and everything in between... I would love for you to get to the opportunity to work, handle, or just be around my male. I think you'd fall in love with him


----------



## Emoore

Thank God for moderate, balanced dogs. I bought Kopper for agility, obedience, and protection. I was working part time and spent hours each day working with him and training him. We were always going g to classes or practicing. 

Then my husband walked out and everything changed. 

I went from working part time to working heavy overtime and I'm always tired. He's lucky to get a 20 minute walk and a game of fetch. I'm one of those horrible owners whose dogs spend 10 hours a day in the house with only a neighbor to let them out to potty during the day. There was a month or two of acting out, hut he has settled into his new routine with grace. I would not have bought this dog in my current life circumstances, but he has adapted amazingly.


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## lhczth

*I have removed all of the off topic posts about the back and put them in the correct thread. Going off in a new direction is pretty common in threads, but throwing in some story about your own dog that has NOTHING to do with the current thread should be avoided. Let's at least attempt to stay on topic. 

Thank you, 

ADMIN Lisa*


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## carmspack

Martemchik quote "The breed and dogs in general have evolved. 99% of all dogs of all breeds aren't used for what they were originally intended for. So the romanticized idea that we need to have a breed just like the one developed in 1900 is unrealistic. Life, society, culture, have all evolved, why not the breed?"

no misquote or out of context .
Interpretation , so you don't think we need to worry about the breed which developed in the 1900s. Taken from indigenous regional herding dogs and organized by breeding to produce an all round utility dog for work. We do need it . My point by referring to the bomb dogs was that there is actually an increasing need for working dogs, in fields with increased sophistication . There are more than you are aware of . Most work unseen , securing areas before you (general public) even arrive . Protection for the person , protection for the public at large .

In the newsprint scanned article that Vandal provided 
(in full in this thread http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breed-standard/463209-so-you-think-our-breed-hasnt-changed-specially-their-backs-12.html)

article from 1980 where the President of the SV discusses some of the issues with the breed that needed to be addressed.....

from the first page -- quote 

"in the area of innovative utilizations , like drug detection, we incorporate with gratitude as they offer us new possibilities and directions for breeding in the working lines"

That was 1980 . The innovative utilization of dogs in work has spiraled out and expanded to work not even considered possible at that time. 

And same article same page (1) "If we have already spoken of temperament we must not forget the herding dog tending his flocks. Through his versatility he has found the greatest recognition throughout the world and we are striving today through our herding nationals to renew these old bloodlines again in our Breed and carry them on"

so the ideals that were in place in the early 1900's , and responsible for the breed and the perception in the minds of the public are not some lacy romantic notion , they are a necessity for the maintenance of the breed , as it should be.

I believe the OP was asking about a golden middle -- no extreme , not too dull , not too sharp . Moderate bite thresholds , not too late to respond , not pre-emptive or too sharp. 
When bite is necessary make it meaningful.

The drive is not diminished . You have to have drive to have a GSD. When the dogs are bred to extremes you have all drive and no brakes , no steering .


When there is a bite look for one that goes right back to the molars --- look for it in the pups -- natural behaviour not conditioned.

Anne in her post , I believe either here or the "backs have changed thread" said something about a dog taking a bite and torqueing , driving in to the decoy. That comes from herding behaviour. When they need to control a sheep they are not yanking away at it as in prey -- they are pushing it back into line . 

There is a picture of one of Ellen Nicklesberg young pups , observed for natural herding instinct, on his hind legs , full to the tonsils neck engulfed grip , pushing , dominating , controlling the sheep. Not prey nip pulling . 
http://www.german-shepherdherding.com/the-large-flock-herding-dog 

These are the virtues of the 1900's dogs. Glad they are being kept alive .


----------



## Blanketback

Emoore said:


> I'm one of those horrible owners whose dogs spend 10 hours a day in the house with only a neighbor to let them out to potty during the day.


I hope you're being sarcastic when you call yourself a "horrible owner" because life throws _all_ of us curve balls (health, finances, family) and we can only do the best we can. I'm sorry that you're in this predicament, since it can't be much fun to be exhausted all the time, but if only the privileged were owners, then probably many of us here wouldn't be.

I think much of your success at this point came from the excellent foundation you laid with your puppy, and this is what I see lacking in the owners I was speaking about: the cute puppy grows up into 80 lb. unmanageable dog.


----------



## shepherdmom

onyx'girl said:


> "Clueless incompetent owner"....is to blame. I was responding to the quote from Jacksdad.
> 
> If someone buys a pup, it then turns into a dog that is a liability, the owner is the one to be held responsible. The breeder is not involved whatsoever by that time.
> As many have posted in this thread, this breed is not for just anyone. If you choose to own a GSD, then you should research the breed and know what you are getting into. That includes choosing the breeder wisely.



So it's all on the owner? The breeders don't have any culpability at all? I disagree. If breeders are going to breed the extremes then they need to do due diligence and follow up and they need to make darn sure those extremes don't make it out into the byb hands. 




Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## David Winners

shepherdmom said:


> So it's all on the owner? The breeders don't have any culpability at all? I disagree. If breeders are going to breed the extremes then they need to do due diligence and follow up and they need to make darn sure those extremes don't make it out into the byb hands.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


But what is extreme? A good, balanced dog in one situation is an unruly heathen in another. 

David Winners


----------



## wolfstraum

Sorry David - I disagree - no - a good balanced dog is not a heather in any situation....that is what balance is....my very very extremely driven male is a house dog, he sleeps beside my bed, or couch....he is quiet in a kennel run and does not spin or act like a fool .....  anyone who has worked him knows the drive and power are over the top...but he is a good house dog and fairly easy to live with.

these dogs bred for extreme prey that cannot settle, cannot be in the house, spin in circles in a kennel etc are NOT balanced....overly aggressive dogs who are not safe with people are NOT balanced....


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## my boy diesel

*.but if people quit buying from those breeding the nervy reactive dogs, maybe they will quit breeding. *
well the average pet owner does not have a clue what a gsds temperament is supposed to be like
the average owner is unaware of the need for solid temperament
they purchase based on convenience, cost and looks
and as a result gds have gotten a horrible reputation at least with the vets in our area as being nervy jerks with a tendency to bite everyone around them
i just shake my head when they rave about how well behaved my boy is and tell them i would never own a gsd that bit people off its property
on its property if someone trespasses and i am not there well then all bets are off


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## shepherdmom

wolfstraum said:


> Sorry David - I disagree - no - a good balanced dog is not a heather in any situation....that is what balance is....my very very extremely driven male is a house dog, he sleeps beside my bed, or couch....he is quiet in a kennel run and does not spin or act like a fool ..... anyone who has worked him knows the drive and power are over the top...but he is a good house dog and fairly easy to live with.
> 
> these dogs bred for extreme prey that cannot settle, cannot be in the house, spin in circles in a kennel etc are NOT balanced....overly aggressive dogs who are not safe with people are NOT balanced....


:thumbup:


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## David Winners

wolfstraum said:


> Sorry David - I disagree - no - a good balanced dog is not a heather in any situation....that is what balance is....my very very extremely driven male is a house dog, he sleeps beside my bed, or couch....he is quiet in a kennel run and does not spin or act like a fool ..... anyone who has worked him knows the drive and power are over the top...but he is a good house dog and fairly easy to live with.
> 
> these dogs bred for extreme prey that cannot settle, cannot be in the house, spin in circles in a kennel etc are NOT balanced....overly aggressive dogs who are not safe with people are NOT balanced....


But that same dog in a novice hands with no training (to speak of) and no outlets, mental and physical stimulation?

I agree that some dogs just can not settle, and that is a flaw IMO, but I also believe that the same dog in a different situation / with a different handler, will behave much differently.


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## hunterisgreat

David Winners said:


> But what is extreme? A good, balanced dog in one situation is an unruly heathen in another.
> 
> David Winners


I think a good balanced dog should not be an unruly heathen anywhere. Being a an unruly heathen, IMO, would an indicator of a lack of balance.


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## hunterisgreat

David Winners said:


> But that same dog in a novice hands with no training (to speak of) and no outlets, mental and physical stimulation?
> 
> I agree that some dogs just can not settle, and that is a flaw IMO, but I also believe that the same dog in a different situation / with a different handler, will behave much differently.


A poor handler sure, but what dog could thrive there. The average owner the dog should be good with


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## Vandal

> Having read most of your posts I've come across with a careful eye, as a person who regularly does helper work and in my short experience have personally worked up to world level sport dogs, current police dogs, byb dogs, and everything in between... I would love for you to get to the opportunity to work, handle, or just be around my male. I think you'd fall in love with him


Well bring him out, I’m just right over here in California.  It’s entirely possible that I would really like him. I am not saying there are not good dogs still. I think mostly the problems lie with the combinations being done and what has taken place over the last ten years or so in the way the dogs are bred. There seems to be more of the same type of dog now. That type of dog was always there, I saw them years ago. It was just that they were used differently. Not this same type bred to the same type. They were used to achieve a balance. Because of this, finding the right male for breeding is much more difficult. I also think because of the way the dogs are trained for SchH now, seeing that difference in type is much more difficult. I know for a fact that some very good dogs are being discarded because people do not understand how to work them. They don’t fit the type of training the owner has planned to do before the dog was ever born, and suddenly it is not a good dog. Not all dogs work to their optimum level with food and toys or with an e-collar on. Not all dogs work well when the training is all about chasing and playing. I have seen and worked dogs who looked like absolute crap due to the previous play/prey based training, only to look great once someone reached inside and touched another side of that same dog. IMO, the later type of dog are the ones needed the most at this point but there is a lack of ability to adjust the training to fit. So many people seem to be limiting their options by following one method of training. When I started, you would be considered incompetent if you could not adjust to the dog. Now, it is common place where the dogs are expected to adjust. 

Also, for a long time, using dogs in your club or region was somehow considered a “red flag”. The motives for doing this were presented as ways to save and make money. Lets consider this for a moment. Germany, for example, is a very small country compared to the US. It is much easier for breeders there to actually see the dogs they intend to use for breeding. They don’t seem to have to suffer the“breeder rules” imposed by people who might not understand how important seeing the dog is. Or at least that used to be the case. I think the mentality over there has shifted as well. The pedigree only tells you so much. You have to see if the dog represents that pedigree and if you can see the dog off of a training field, all the better. What I said in the previous paragraph effects this as well. 

As for breeder responsibility. I can agree to a point. However, too many believe they get a dog and it is all push button from there. I can assure you, the balanced GSDs need a competent, responsible owner just as much as the ones who are not. Might be a bit easier but those dogs I talked about in a previous post, while in all respects were great GSDs, would make your life miserable if you were not the right person for them. It is the responsibility of the breeder to try their best to ensure the dogs go to the right place but sometimes, people are just amazing liars. There is always this push to blame breeders for all of the problems when most people just have no sense of their own limitations when it comes to animals. I’ve gotten to be pretty good at spotting them but I have made more than one placement mistake. It is not as easy as it might seem.


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## Blanketback

But then we're back to square one, where the puppies are expected to raise themselves and magically grow into the perfectly well-trained dog that people want - without putting in any effort themselves. Hunter, how would your dogs be right now, if they were raised by apathetic owners?


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## Vandal

> When there is a bite look for one that goes right back to the molars --- look for it in the pups -- natural behaviour not conditioned.
> 
> Anne in her post , I believe either here or the "backs have changed thread" said something about a dog taking a bite and torqueing , driving in to the decoy. That comes from herding behaviour. When they need to control a sheep they are not yanking away at it as in prey -- they are pushing it back into line .
> 
> There is a picture of one of Ellen Nicklesberg young pups , observed for natural herding instinct, on his hind legs , full to the tonsils neck engulfed grip , pushing , dominating , controlling the sheep. Not prey nip pulling .
> http://www.german-shepherdherding.co...ck-herding-dog


 Yes I said that and yes it is a herding behavior. Somehow, people have gotten the impression that herding is for the weaker dogs. The large herd tending that the GSD was used for was in no way meant for weak dogs. People who infer that are ignorant.


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## lalachka

my boy diesel said:


> *.but if people quit buying from those breeding the nervy reactive dogs, maybe they will quit breeding. *
> well the average pet owner does not have a clue what a gsds temperament is supposed to be like
> the average owner is unaware of the need for solid temperament
> they purchase based on convenience, cost and looks
> and as a result gds have gotten a horrible reputation at least with the vets in our area as being nervy jerks with a tendency to bite everyone around them
> i just shake my head when they rave about how well behaved my boy is and tell them i would never own a gsd that bit people off its property
> on its property if someone trespasses and i am not there well then all bets are off



What do you mean you'd never own one that bites? You mean that you choose them in a way that ensures they won't bite or that you'd put a dog down if he did?


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## carmspack

if there is a substantive threat to the handler the dog must be willing and able to take the bite , that is a legitimate bite .
The dog must have an alert awareness of the environment and act appropriately - quick example Fama biting the face of the threat encroaching on David from behind . --


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## Susan_GSD_mom

David Winners said:


> But that same dog in a novice hands with no training (to speak of) and no outlets, mental and physical stimulation?
> 
> I agree that some dogs just can not settle, and that is a flaw IMO, but I also believe that the same dog in a different situation / with a different handler, will behave much differently.


I agree, David. I certainly don't have the experience that most of you have, especially with sport dogs, but I have one example in my home right now, and had two other examples with two of my past rescues.

Horses are the same way--no matter what their strong points and talents and athleticism may be, they will work differently with different riders and trainers.

Susan


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## Vandal

I found this quote from Hermann Martin , (SV President way back when), on my laptop. I had saved it from an article I read. Can't seem to locate that now. Good explanation about many things. This was written more than two decades ago, or close to it. As usual, the translation is not always clear at points but the overall point remains intact.

Along with some other important aspects of the SchH test, the 10 point system is now gone.



> Soundness of character in the dogs must be fundamental to us. It deals with the feeling of particular strength that the dog has and in the flight instinct of a sound dog, a flight instinct that is either only slightly developed or controlled by the brain i.e. kept in check. These dogs are not intimidated by the optical or acoustical stimuli of every day living. Their behavior toward their environment is friendly and trustful but they can display intrepidness e.g. when the assailant is in earnest. They demonstrate the ability to distinguish between apparent and actual danger. They are also aggressive when a clear threat presents itself. We call this desired sharpness as we wish to use the idea of sharpness conditionally.
> These are the principles upon which the practical work of the SV is based. We have preserved over the AZG the inclusion of points for fighting drive in tests. The reason being that in judging it often turns out that the total points in SchH trials give hardly any conclusions as to the most important portion of the temperament test: fighting drive. This because a larger portion of the training exercises, ( e.g. searching the blinds, find and bark, the transport) and present no great demands on fighting drive. A dog lacking in fighting drive often works here faultlessly. On the other hand, a hard, driving dogs often looses points thru re-bites etc, and in the end result stands no better and often worse than a dog with little fighting drive and built up obedience. This was the reason for the inclusion of points for fighting drive. It should be a rule that a dog with otherwise similar scores in the overall rating yet lacking in fighting drive should place where he belongs, namely after the dog with fighting drive and the dog who sometimes performs without the same obedience.
> This is because even the not quite sound dog is easier to train in obedience than the harder dog who is often very difficult to handle.


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## lhczth

:thumbup:


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## Jack's Dad




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## lhczth

You one upping me Jack?


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## cliffson1

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## carmspack

so why did a Martin , the brother team of Hermann and Walter , Arminius and Wienerau respectively, responsible for so much of the temperamental and health issues in modern GSD , write this article, which makes good and perfect sense.


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## wolfstraum

David Winners said:


> But that same dog in a novice hands with no training (to speak of) and no outlets, mental and physical stimulation?
> 
> I agree that some dogs just can not settle, and that is a flaw IMO, but I also believe that the same dog in a different situation / with a different handler, will behave much differently.


this dog spent 15 months in a very very very novice pet home....the only problem being he chased one of their two cats and the owners had a baby....he is fine with my cats who walk on him, under him and over him...his main source of exercise was being left out in the yard alone or some ball play in the backyard...

two littermates, and several half siblings - who are very very drivy - do live in companion home....

as far "no outlets"...different scenerio for ANY dog........


Lee


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## Vandal

I found that interesting as well Carmen but since I didn't know the man, I can only assume there was only so much they were actually responsible for. People do things at the time not considering the snowball effect. I doubt Bernhard Mannel or Helmut Raiser, both absolute working line people, realized the direction the breed would be sent in when they first discussed the prey instinct. The dogs the Martins bred, for the most part, still did the work. Maybe not like some of the other dogs at the time but certainly as well as many of the WL dogs we see now. 

The internet has a way of making things appear worse or better than what they actually were or are. I saw sons and daughters of Quanto and a few other Weinerau dogs. They were good dogs and nothing like some of the show line dogs we see now. Not even close. I also saw many that were sent out of Germany for a reason , and happily snapped up by ignorant breeders here in the states.


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## Vandal

Actually, I think I recall that article as being an annual report from the President of the SV. Similar to the one I posted in the other thread by Rommel. He was speaking as a representative of the SV but I also think it is what I said above. 

People now probably can't really picture what was going on back then. No point of reference. For example, what I said about Helmut and Bernhard and the discussion concerning the prey instinct. The dogs they owned and were working in their clubs, were anything but "prey monsters". They were hard, serious dogs. The prey work was intended for those kinds of dogs. It was never intended to be used in the fashion it is now. 
I stayed with Bernhard for a month, two years in a row. We went to all the clubs to train and most of the dogs, while varying in some ways, all were really doing Schutzhund in the true sense of the word. 

I also trained with Helmut, and his helper Gunther came to train with us repeatedly. Same thing....not about making sleeve happy dogs at all but even back then, people who did not understand it, were not thrilled with the idea ...at all. 
In hindsight, I guess the naysayers were right, simply because of how people have taken the theory and perverted it into something it was never meant to be. Had they known then what they know now, perhaps they would have made that aspect more clear with warnings. Reality though is this....most people never really understood what Helmut or Bernhard were trying to say, so no matter how much they could have warned people, it probably would have made no difference.


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## onyx'girl

I'm happy I'm able to train with people that use Helmuts methods consistently. Hopefully we can do a seminar with him in the future.


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## LifeofRiley

Vandal said:


> People do things at the time not considering the snowball effect.


Great information and discussion on this thread! 

A question for those of you who are really experienced in/passionate about the breed. If you could go back in time and change anything you wanted… changes that you believe would have resulted in better outcomes for the breed today, what changes would you make? Why those?

And, to tie it more directly to the premise of the thread - how would those changes result in more balance and moderation in the breed - or not? How would it allow for people to be able trust that the breed standard, as written, is actually still a pretty good guideline in terms of what you are going to get when you get a GSD?


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## shepherdmom

David Winners said:


> But that same dog in a novice hands with no training (to speak of) and no outlets, mental and physical stimulation?
> 
> I agree that some dogs just can not settle, and that is a flaw IMO, but I also believe that the same dog in a different situation / with a different handler, will behave much differently.


But how many handlers are out there than can handle these types of dogs? The number is limited, I'm sure. I don't know if I could handle it and I've got more shepherd experience than the typical pet owner. I've got a fearful little guy and I'm constantly afraid I'm going to screw it up. I can't even imagine what it would be like if he didn't have an off switch.



> Great information and discussion on this thread!


Agreed.


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## Doc

I will not make any comments about this article. 
German Shepherd Herding » A Visit With Shäfermeister Manfred Heyne


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## hunterisgreat

lhczth said:


> You one upping me Jack?


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

This is why I don't give a crap about IPO anymore. It's a joke and a fallacy that I don't wish to :wub:contribute my money and time to. The sad truth is most current judges don't know a good dog when it's in front of them.


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## LifeofRiley

Doc said:


> I will not make any comments about this article.
> German Shepherd Herding » A Visit With Shäfermeister Manfred Heyne


I really enjoyed this article. Thank you for sharing. 

It seems that the some of the traits he emphasizes are not ones that are tested for (or championed) these days.

I wonder if the gentleman profiled abided by the closed stud book rules in breeding and selecting his dogs? Or did he place working ability above that? I have read elsewhere that to sustain working ability over time, there is a need to breed based on ability and not on the rules of "purebred" dogdom. 

ETA: I really don't know much about how purebred-dogdom works... I have heard people critique a closed stud book and I assume that means that no new dogs who are not somehow descendants of the original breed founders are thereby disqualified. In other words, you could have a great herding dog, but if it did not have a pedigree, you could not register that dog and could thereby not register any offspring from a breeding to that dog.


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## Doc

Unfortunately he died a few years ago. Towards the end, I think the establishment didn't care much for him. But don't hold me to that statement please. I read that somewhere, and in this thread, I am probably wrong because I never talked to him in person.


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## selzer

The article was interesting. Always interested in Nazis -- that era -- the stories of thwarting, or escaping from those situations.

He said, interest in the flock -- almost obsessive prey drive, and genetic obedience. I put Babsy on sheep, and while I don't know if it was obsessive, she was sure interested in the little shetland sheep. The woman from the Pyrean Shepherd club told me that she was looking for my direction/wants to work with me. Babs has genetic obedience, definitely. I didn't make her what she is. No way. 

Today, I had her out at a street fair, and there were some newborn (3 day old) baby goats there. Babs was obsessively interested in them. Made me kind of nervous. I mean, newborn critters may not be safe with a dog, any predator really. But reading that article, it was neat to see that that interest actually is wanted. (She did not eat the goats today or the sheep years ago.)

The lady who owned the goats, said that she had heard that the herding has pretty much been bred out of GSDs. I told her I had Babsy on sheep once, though admittedly, we have never done any herding. But I know people who do herd with GSDs, so, it isn't gone. Probably some lines are stronger for it than others, and some people do not necessarily want it.

It was also interesting to see him win with one progeny after another. Definitely his choices in breeding were good, and he kind of differentiated between competition, and the working, though the traits needed for both were the same.


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## LifeofRiley

Doc said:


> Unfortunately he died a few years ago. Towards the end, I think the establishment didn't care much for him. But don't hold me to that statement please. I read that somewhere, and in this thread, I am probably wrong because I never talked to him in person.


Lol... well, I do find value in the analysis of historical data! As such, I would love to hear more about your take re: my question as to what folks who have been following this breed for many, many years would change if they could go back in time. 

I assume the article you posted is part of that answer and I appreciate you posting it but I want more : )


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## LifeofRiley

Jack's Dad said:


> You should not need a degree in genetics to find a GSD that will fit into your family life and won't bite the kids next door.
> 
> If people need to do tons of research to get a decent dog then you might as well go to the shelters and save one.


If I haven't already indicated as much with other posts, I just want to say that I completely agree with this statement.

The whole point of having a "breed" is to give people a good idea of what they are getting. Yet, given the high degree of variability within this breed, I can only imagine how hard it must be for people who are looking to buy or adopt.

I know that with my foster GSDs, my least favorite applicants are the ones who basically recite the breed standard as the reason they want to adopt my foster GSD. I typically have to tell folks that there is not one dog out there that auto-magically becomes a great dog, much less a great GSD - it takes you learning about the dog, teaching him/her what you expect in a way that the dog responds to and just being trustworthy to the dog. I have denied a lot of applicants because they did not seem to get that.


----------



## shepherdmom

> If people need to do tons of research to get a decent dog then you might as well go to the shelters and save one.





LifeofRiley said:


> If I haven't already indicated as much with other posts, I just want to say that I completely agree with this statement.
> 
> The whole point of having a "breed" is to give people a good idea of what they are getting. Yet, given the high degree of variability within this breed, I can only imagine how hard it must be for people who are looking to buy or adopt.


I do get my from the shelters and rescues.... but I still find this subject fascinating.  

This thread has been great up until the recent peeing contest. Neuter time?   

I really don't know how the average pet person is expected to figure out all this stuff. When even the experts don't agree.


----------



## simba405

lalachka said:


> **** Original quote removed by ADMIN ****


This forum is definitely more emotional and full of noobies . The other forum has a bunch of knowledgeable people who can offer advice on sport or work related questions. 

Hunter if your dog is so great and you spend so much time training then it should be able to skim by with 70-70-70 for ipo3, no? 

Ipo1 is testing the dog and imo ipo2 and 3 is more about testing the handler/training. 

A great shepherd is much more than just great fight drive and tenacity. If all a dog wants to do is fight imo it's useless. Likewise if all a dog wants to do is search but lacks the will to fight it's also useless. Too much of one thing is not good.


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## lalachka

I'm a noobie))))) will check it out though, someone told me about it last year, I think I went there but don't remember why I didn't register


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## martemchik

Doc said:


> I will not make any comments about this article.
> German Shepherd Herding » A Visit With Shäfermeister Manfred Heyne


I've seen this article plenty of times. I actually believe my bitch comes from these lines. So I'm not disagreeing with the guy, or trying to say he's lying.

But I just want to point out, he's writing a letter, about HIS OWN dogs. Of course there is not a single flaw mentioned about any of them. It's just all about how great his dogs are and how cruddy all the other ones are out there. How someone can read that letter, and take it as historical fact, is beyond me. It's clearly biased and extremely subjective. It doesn't in itself prove that his dogs are what he says they are. It just says what HE thinks of his dogs.

So again, just someone with age/experience telling you their opinion of their own stock. Why is this something we just have to lay down and take as law? And its not that I don't agree with him, and don't personally accept some of those things he wrote as the truth...but its just worth noting that it's not a very objective account of the subject.


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## lhczth

*I have removed all of the off topic posts. If you boys need to puff your chests and crow at one another you will do so some place else. No reason to ruin a perfectly civil thread with school yard nonsense. 

Thank you,

ADMIN Lisa*


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## Doc

martemchik said:


> I've seen this article plenty of times. I actually believe my bitch comes from these lines. So I'm not disagreeing with the guy, or trying to say he's lying.
> 
> But I just want to point out, he's writing a letter, about HIS OWN dogs. Of course there is not a single flaw mentioned about any of them. It's just all about how great his dogs are and how cruddy all the other ones are out there. How someone can read that letter, and take it as historical fact, is beyond me. It's clearly biased and extremely subjective. It doesn't in itself prove that his dogs are what he says they are. It just says what HE thinks of his dogs.
> 
> So again, just someone with age/experience telling you their opinion of their own stock. Why is this something we just have to lay down and take as law? And its not that I don't agree with him, and don't personally accept some of those things he wrote as the truth...but its just worth noting that it's not a very objective account of the subject.


I will not make any comments about this post. :hammer::hammer::help:


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## Baillif

I like fararri dogs. The ones that are good at everything, being a pet, confident, generally fearless, good bounce back in the event they do get freaked out or supressed, great trackers great jumpers, great biters, great endurance, and freakishly high drives. They're out there and when they are said to have a lack of control this is almost always a handler issue.

There are lines where those dogs appear more often than others, and you can expect to drop 2k or more on a puppy from those lines and what you end up with might not even be the fararri you're looking for. You probably won't get to pick your own puppy as the breedings from those pedigrees are usually spoken for before the dogs are even born. More than likely you end up with a corvette if that, although having a breeder pick of the litter for you increases the odds of getting a farrari dog it isn't an assured thing. You could get an older proven green dog but the fararri green dogs will be at least a 4k-5k thing for a 6month to 1 year old.

It doesn't matter what the other breeders are doing. There are vanguards of these lines around the world and if you want one and you have your wallet ready are patient and know the right people and are in it for the right reasons you can find and obtain these dogs. They'll be there no matter what the breed standard clubs or the backyard breeders do. 

Having a fararri fall into the hands of an average pet owner is a tragedy in the same way it would be a tragedy for Labron James to end up working at a Taco Bell instead of playing NBA ball. Best case scenario the dog lives out a poshy existence in a pet home after some training, worst case scenario and probably the more likely one is they end up being surrendered and put down.


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## lalachka

You mean Ferrari? Actually, an amazing dog ending up with a pet owner, getting trained and living a poshy existence is not a tragedy just like that player working in Taco Bell. 

Maybe that would've been a tragedy for him personally but that's about it. If he was lost as a player that's not a tragedy. Similarly, if a good dog ends up living a poshy life instead of being worked is also not a tragedy for the dog. 

It might be a tragedy for whoever could've made a name with that dog but not for the dog. 

Tragedy to me is not nba losing a good player and not sport losing a good dog. So maybe we just have diff criteria for things.


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## hunterisgreat

simba405 said:


> This forum is definitely more emotional and full of noobies . The other forum has a bunch of knowledgeable people who can offer advice on sport or work related questions.
> 
> Hunter if your dog is so great and you spend so much time training then it should be able to skim by with 70-70-70 for ipo3, no?
> 
> Ipo1 is testing the dog and imo ipo2 and 3 is more about testing the handler/training.
> 
> A great shepherd is much more than just great fight drive and tenacity. If all a dog wants to do is fight imo it's useless. Likewise if all a dog wants to do is search but lacks the will to fight it's also useless. Too much of one thing is not good.


For a lot of reasons. Limited trials. Limited time left with the dog and other goals more important to me. I've switched to trailing him now so IPO style tracking is not in our future. I have a sportier, younger dog I'll do IPO with. Much of the training I'm doing with my dogs has nothing to do with IPO


----------



## Baillif

lalachka said:


> You mean Ferrari? Actually, an amazing dog ending up with a pet owner, getting trained and living a poshy existence is not a tragedy just like that player working in Taco Bell.
> 
> Maybe that would've been a tragedy for him personally but that's about it. If he was lost as a player that's not a tragedy. Similarly, if a good dog ends up living a poshy life instead of being worked is also not a tragedy for the dog.
> 
> It might be a tragedy for whoever could've made a name with that dog but not for the dog.
> 
> Tragedy to me is not nba losing a good player and not sport losing a good dog. So maybe we just have diff criteria for things.


An amazing dog like that enjoys the work and is more alive for the work. It loses something great loafing around in someone's living room all day. So much of what a typical pet owner wants is a suppression of natural instinct and strength instead of the embracing and channeling of it.


----------



## my boy diesel

if it could lose something so great maybe it was not so great after all
it is my understanding that a dogs surroundings cannot change the underlying or base nature of the dog

just like laser pointers cannot give a dog ocd unless it is prone to it
same argument

you cannot take drive away from a dog by feeding it bon bons and having it lay around the house all day


----------



## lalachka

Baillif said:


> An amazing dog like that enjoys the work and is more alive for the work. It loses something great loafing around in someone's living room all day. So much of what a typical pet owner wants is a suppression of natural instinct and strength instead of the embracing and channeling of it.



If that's what the dog wants then maybe that's true. But you don't know what he'd prefer given the choice. 

I'm just tired of the pet home dissing. There are some amazing pet homes that get out with their dogs a lot and the dog doesn't stay In the living room all day. Also, if what I read is true, working homes kennel their dogs when not working, to build drive 

I know for sure that a dog would take the living room over a kennel any day. 

How many hours a day is a dog worked in a sport home? Combined? 3-5-8?
There are people (myself included) that are out with their dogs for hours every day.


----------



## lalachka

You can suppress a drive through corrections though, my boy diesel, and I do agree that for the most part, pet homes that are gone all day will try to suppress the drive because they need an apartment dog.


----------



## lalachka

OK, here's why it annoys me to read all this. I'd never do sport unless something drastically changes in my thinking. Not my thing, I don't have the drive for it))))))

But i'd love to some day get an amazing dog and just do things with it. And reading stuff like this means I never can because it's a 'tragedy' and a 'waste'.


----------



## my boy diesel

i do not think it is possible to truly suppress a drive
those who have apartments and are gone all day are the ones to dump a drivey dog because it ripped the apartment up or barked and howled all day 

i think you can redirect drive but if you can suppress it it was not true drive to begin with


----------



## wolfstraum

shepherdmom said:


> But how many handlers are out there than can handle these types of dogs? The number is limited, I'm sure. I don't know if I could handle it and I've got more shepherd experience than the typical pet owner. I've got a fearful little guy and I'm constantly afraid I'm going to screw it up. I can't even imagine what it would be like if he didn't have an off switch.
> Agreed.


The point of my post to which you are quoting a response...is that a balanced dog with high drives CAN make a companion dog in a "active" home....walks, hikes, basic OB, ball playing....I have seen MANY very high drive dogs in companion homes....the ones that cannot be "handled" are NOT balanced, they are not "sound" of temperament, they have issues and the huge numbers of GSDs bred in the US are NOT bred by responsible, knowledgeable breeders!!!

Lee


----------



## Baillif

lalachka said:


> If that's what the dog wants then maybe that's true. But you don't know what he'd prefer given the choice.
> 
> I'm just tired of the pet home dissing. There are some amazing pet homes that get out with their dogs a lot and the dog doesn't stay In the living room all day. Also, if what I read is true, working homes kennel their dogs when not working, to build drive
> 
> I know for sure that a dog would take the living room over a kennel any day.
> 
> How many hours a day is a dog worked in a sport home? Combined? 3-5-8?
> There are people (myself included) that are out with their dogs for hours every day.


You kennel dogs for hours to build drive when your dog has a lack of drive. It is not done with great dogs that are great. It isnt even necessary for ok ones once they condition for the work properly. If you have to continually kennel a dog all day to get workable drive out of them you should go looking for a better dog if youre looking to be seriously competitive.

You feel insulted? Thats regretable but the fact remains there are people out there far better suited to those dogs than others and those people are called trainers.


----------



## Freestep

Baillif said:


> An amazing dog like that enjoys the work and is more alive for the work. It loses something great loafing around in someone's living room all day. So much of what a typical pet owner wants is a suppression of natural instinct and strength instead of the embracing and channeling of it.


That is exactly what the pet owner wants, and why breeders and judges have to be careful not to water down the whole breed to fit a pet owner's needs. There will always be lower-drive, lower-energy puppies in a litter, let those be the pets. 

I'm a pet owner. I've owned GSDs all my adult life and all of them have led rich, full lives. They were pets, but well-trained, were active and included in everything, but they still had to learn how to suppress their drives to some extent.

I think a good working dog can (and must) suppress natural instinct and drives at times. The ones that can do it easily are the ones that can fit into a dog-savvy "pet" home. I personally love a dog than knows how to relax and be mellow when the situation calls for it, and doesn't mind doing so. I can't stand hyperactive dogs.

I don't think a good dog can be "ruined" by a cushy pet lifestyle, so long as he's not given bad handling or training. But I see what Bailiff is saying. It's kind of a waste for a good working dog to languish in someone's living room when they could be out saving lives, or at least enjoying the expression of their natural drives in work or sport.

This is why I probably won't get another GSD, unless it is a particularly laid back individual. While my heart loves the breed, it's getting to the point where my lifestyle doesn't really fulfill the needs and desires of a working dog. The GSD I have now has a very nice "off" switch and doesn't seem to mind loafing around most of the day. She gets to play ball several times a day and keep an eye on our acre. When she starts looking restless or solicitous, 5 minutes of fetch seems to satisfy her. However, this is not really an ideal situation for a working dog, and I sometimes feel guilty about that. But between working full time and dealing with chronic fatigue and pain, I don't have the time, energy, or wherewithal to provide more work, activity or competition training. Perhaps at some point that will change, but it's hard to predict. 

I almost bought a GSD puppy last year. It was from a breeder whom I'd admired for years and had been wanting a pup from for a long time. I really wanted that puppy and it was a tough decision I thought long and hard about. In the end, he went to a working home and is doing extremely well in his training... for police work, I believe... and though I feel I have missed out on something really special, it would have been kind of tragic to have a great dog languish in a pet home, when he could be out saving lives.


----------



## shepherdmom

lalachka said:


> OK, here's why it annoys me to read all this. I'd never do sport unless something drastically changes in my thinking. Not my thing, I don't have the drive for it))))))
> 
> But i'd love to some day get an amazing dog and just do things with it. And reading stuff like this means I never can because it's a 'tragedy' and a 'waste'.


I've successfully been a pet home for German Shepherds for 30 years. I've not done sport well other than some fun 4-H agility and obedience for a few years. I have had working lines, and a show line as well as some I guess you would call them American backyard bred pet lines. I have acreage, I have kids and was a Girl Scout leader so we did fun stuff like flashlight hide and seek and camping/hiking with the dogs. It was never a set schedule but I was home all day. Now the kids are grown and I sometimes work part-time but we have a dog door to a large penned in area so the dogs are just fine for several hours. There is absolutely no reason you can't successfully have an amazing shepherd. But you do need to be careful. You don't want the Ferrari of shepherds, look for the dependable daily drivers.


----------



## Packen

my boy diesel said:


> if it could lose something so great maybe it was not so great after all
> it is my understanding that a dogs surroundings cannot change the underlying or base nature of the dog
> 
> just like laser pointers cannot give a dog ocd unless it is prone to it
> same argument
> 
> you cannot take drive away from a dog by feeding it bon bons and having it lay around the house all day


Totally agree. Strong dogs are just that, strong. Does not depend on how you raise them or where they sleep. The "not so strong" kind comes with a long list of things to do and not do in order to get the desired result.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

What's wrong with the minivan of shepherds? Is that the point of this thread?


----------



## my boy diesel

*a balanced dog with high drives CAN make a companion dog in a "active" home....walks, hikes, basic OB, ball playing..*
:thumbup:

*I have seen MANY very high drive dogs in companion homes....the ones that cannot be "handled" are NOT balanced, they are not "sound" of temperament, they have issues and the huge numbers of GSDs bred in the US are NOT bred by responsible, knowledgeable breeders!!!*
so basically the ones in pet homes doing badly are unbalanced 'freak of nature' type dogs?

i would say that is more of a tragedy than a well balanced dog in a pet home!!


----------



## shepherdmom

wolfstraum said:


> The point of my post to which you are quoting a response...is that a balanced dog with high drives CAN make a companion dog in a "active" home....walks, hikes, basic OB, ball playing....I have seen MANY very high drive dogs in companion homes....the ones that cannot be "handled" are NOT balanced, they are not "sound" of temperament, they have issues and the huge numbers of GSDs bred in the US are NOT bred by responsible, knowledgeable breeders!!!
> 
> Lee


I don't think you and Bailiff are talking about the same dogs/breeders? He is talking about the Ferrari of sport while you are talking about the Cadillac. (best all around car) Personally I'm with you I would rather have the Cadillac.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

I'm sure that responsible breeders avoid placing Ferraris in Cadillac homes. Although as puppies it is hard to tell sometimes, I hear.


----------



## Whiteshepherds

martemchik said:


> ......
> 
> But I just want to point out, he's writing a letter, about HIS OWN dogs. Of course there is not a single flaw mentioned about any of them. It's just all about how great his dogs are and how cruddy all the other ones are out there. How someone can read that letter, and take it as historical fact, is beyond me. It's clearly biased and extremely subjective. It doesn't in itself prove that his dogs are what he says they are. It just says what HE thinks of his dogs.
> 
> So again, just someone with age/experience telling you their opinion of their own stock. Why is this something we just have to lay down and take as law? And its not that I don't agree with him, and don't personally accept some of those things he wrote as the truth...but its just worth noting that it's not a very objective account of the subject.


He lived through changes in the breed, saw first hand what was happening and described it in an interview. He won the SV-Bundesleistungshüten 13 times with seven dogs. Bum luck?

Do you think he was interviewed because he was unimportant to the breed...just a nobody?


----------



## wolfstraum

> *a balanced dog with high drives CAN make a companion dog in a "active" home....walks, hikes, basic OB, ball playing..*
> :thumbup:
> 
> *I have seen MANY very high drive dogs in companion homes....the ones that cannot be "handled" are NOT balanced, they are not "sound" of temperament, they have issues and the huge numbers of GSDs bred in the US are NOT bred by responsible, knowledgeable breeders!!!*





my boy diesel said:


> so basically the ones in pet homes doing badly are unbalanced 'freak of nature' type dogs?
> 
> i would say that is more of a tragedy than a well balanced dog in a pet home!!


Again - GSDs are not the dog for everyone! The huge numbers of GSDs bred in this country are NOT BRED BY RESPONSIBLE KNOWLEDGEABLE BREEDERS

AKC Dog Registration Statistics

Since 2003 - GSDs have been in the top 4 breeds registered by AKC - this does not include the numbers of UKC, CKC, ACK (or whatever puppy mill registry is in vogue nowadays).....Unfortunately, the AKC no longer publishes the actual numbers of litter registrations....last one I saw was 49,000+ litters - and about 150,000 individuals....and we know so many people do NOT send in their individual applications! Forty Nine thousand litters was when the GSD was in 4th or 5th place...so 10 years ago.....I do not believe that there are enough ASL/Euro SL/Euro WL breeders in this country to produce that many litters per year - I doubt that even a third of the litters produced in this country fall into that trio of type....the commercial kennels, the 'back yard' casual breeder, the puppy mills and the ignorant (lack of knowledge/experience) small business breeder make up the majority of those numbers....People who want "JUST A PET" go for the least expensive pup locally and are content with it having AKC papers...feeling for some reason that those papers insure "quality". So for most buyers, it is a crap shoot whether they get a watered down but basically stable dog or a genetic mess with problems. They don't see the point of supporting a breeder who charges $1500-$3000 for a puppy when there are AKC pups in/on the local newspaper for $300 to $600...some even touting backgrounds of "Sch titled" pedigrees....these are the ones "doing badly" in pet homes....

Until there is education and some type of "quality control", there will be thousands of litters bred whose reason for existence is someone's wallet being fattened without regard for the dog or the owner.

Lee


----------



## wolfstraum

shepherdmom said:


> I don't think you and Bailiff are talking about the same dogs/breeders? He is talking about the Ferrari of sport while you are talking about the Cadillac. (best all around car) Personally I'm with you I would rather have the Cadillac.


No - we are talking about the same thing. I know dogs PERSONALLY who have been WUSV competitors, who have been on top Nationally....and they are house dogs, good with kids, sane, stable dogs...but with the power, character and resilience to be trained and competed at that level. They don't HAVE to be kenneled all the time so that they will train better. They don't have to be forced to track or do obedience. It is there genetically.

There are dogs capable of that level whose handlers do not have the resources or assistance to get there.

Lee


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Are we saying the average high drive working dog should do well in the average pet home? 
If so then I guess what I consider a high drive/strong dog is not what others on here do.

I have dealt with many average pet owners, been in their homes, trained their dogs and the majority have enough trouble with an energetic lab forget a nice WL GSD.

That dog in that home leads to property damage, crittering, no manners, DA, etc etc.

That type of dog if stable should not require a professional dog trainer but what they do need is common dog sense and an assertive leader. Those two things are not as common as many might think.

To be honest I think the majority on this board couldnt handle a nice WL GSD forget the pet owning public, and it has nothing to do with the dog. jmo


----------



## David Winners

That's what I was trying to say. 

David Winners


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

my boy diesel said:


> if it could lose something so great maybe it was not so great after all
> it is my understanding that a dogs surroundings cannot change the underlying or base nature of the dog
> 
> just like laser pointers cannot give a dog ocd unless it is prone to it
> same argument
> 
> you cannot take drive away from a dog by feeding it bon bons and having it lay around the house all day


 
Own a drivey dog or two and you will get what he is saying. They are not fulfilled doing nothing much and having their base drives supressed to make them "good" pets.


----------



## shepherdmom

wolfstraum said:


> They don't see the point of supporting a breeder who charges $1500-$3000 for a puppy when there are AKC pups in/on the local newspaper for $300 to $600...some even touting backgrounds of "Sch titled" pedigrees....these are the ones "doing badly" in pet homes....
> 
> Until there is education and some type of "quality control", there will be thousands of litters bred whose reason for existence is someone's wallet being fattened without regard for the dog or the owner.
> Lee


Even if we spend the 1500-3000 or more its still a crap shoot for the average pet owner. There are plenty of bad breeders out there taking advantage. 

Someone probably spent that on Tasha and then dumped her in a shelter when they couldn't manage her. I could go spend 3000 and maybe get lucky and have found a good breeder or I could just have supported a bad breeder is disguise. Since I can't figure it out, I'll just rescue and spend the money fixing the issues that arise. At least that way I know my money is being spent for a good cause.


----------



## lalachka

Baillif said:


> You kennel dogs for hours to build drive when your dog has a lack of drive. It is not done with great dogs that are great. It isnt even necessary for ok ones once they condition for the work properly. If you have to continually kennel a dog all day to get workable drive out of them you should go looking for a better dog if youre looking to be seriously competitive.
> 
> 
> 
> You feel insulted? Thats regretable but the fact remains there are people out there far better suited to those dogs than others and those people are called trainers.



You should feel insulted too because as it stands now you'd be not too far ahead of me in line for a good dog


----------



## wolfstraum

The biggest problem in this breed is the "average pet home" - they want the look of the GSD and the personality of a Golden......hence the mass production of unsuitable dogs.

Lee


----------



## lalachka

wolfstraum said:


> The biggest problem in this breed is the "average pet home" - they want the look of the GSD and the personality of a Golden......hence the mass production of unsuitable dogs.
> 
> Lee



I don't. I want a real gsd and I will learn to meet his needs but reading here I will never get one. I will continue to get the leftovers from the sport home and will manage the nerve bags. I'm OK with that. I love my dog with all his problems. Everyone is so high and mighty here.


----------



## Jack's Dad

I don't think that all the nerve, temperament, hyperactivity and numerous health problems in the breed can be placed on crappy owners.


The owners can certainly cause issues but are not responsible for what their dog has genetically.


----------



## lalachka

Lee, I'm sorry, I quoted your post but I wasn't talking about you


----------



## carmspack

quote martemchik
"But I just want to point out, he's writing a letter, about HIS OWN dogs. Of course there is not a single flaw mentioned about any of them. It's just all about how great his dogs are and how cruddy all the other ones are out there. How someone can read that letter, and take it as historical fact, is beyond me. It's clearly biased and extremely subjective. It doesn't in itself prove that his dogs are what he says they are. It just says what HE thinks of his dogs.

So again, just someone with age/experience telling you their opinion of their own stock. Why is this something we just have to lay down and take as law? And its not that I don't agree with him, and don't personally accept some of those things he wrote as the truth...but its just worth noting that it's not a very objective account of the subject.

quote whiteshepherds "He lived through changes in the breed, saw first hand what was happening and described it in an interview. He won the SV-Bundesleistungshüten 13 times with seven dogs. Bum luck?

Do you think he was interviewed because he was unimportant to the breed...just a nobody"

Crazy talk . With you whiteshepherds ! Not only did he trial he was a working shepherd - it was his livelihood, the dogs matter immensely . They were his partners in work.

He was not the only shepherd and some liked him better than others . BUT they agreed on the dogs and the character.
Who would know his dogs better than himself . These dogs were bred more of less for replacement for his own use , not big international commercial sales. 
He bred to satisfy himself , his needs. 
I don't know what else the man has to do for his comments to be considered worthwhile .


----------



## David Winners

I'm just against watering the breed down to suit the needs of the average pet owner. A good GSD is more work than many breeds, and many pet homes are not willing to meet their needs IME. 

David Winners


----------



## lalachka

my boy diesel said:


> i do not think it is possible to truly suppress a drive
> those who have apartments and are gone all day are the ones to dump a drivey dog because it ripped the apartment up or barked and howled all day
> 
> i think you can redirect drive but if you can suppress it it was not true drive to begin with



Not an expert but I think you can. Shock or correct the dog enough and it can get suppressed. Or it will be there somewhere but the dog will be afraid to show it. I can't explain it well but with enough force lots of things can be done.


----------



## lalachka

my boy diesel said:


> *a balanced dog with high drives CAN make a companion dog in a "active" home....walks, hikes, basic OB, ball playing..*
> :thumbup:
> 
> *I have seen MANY very high drive dogs in companion homes....the ones that cannot be "handled" are NOT balanced, they are not "sound" of temperament, they have issues and the huge numbers of GSDs bred in the US are NOT bred by responsible, knowledgeable breeders!!!*
> so basically the ones in pet homes doing badly are unbalanced 'freak of nature' type dogs?
> 
> i would say that is more of a tragedy than a well balanced dog in a pet home!!



Exactly!!!! These dogs are a handful for professionals, they're almost unmanageable for the general public. 

A good dog doesn't see a field - oh well. I'm sure the dog himself is not too depressed about it. 

A nervebag in the wrong hands - and you got all these bites and dogs dumped and who knows what else


----------



## wolfstraum

Jack's Dad said:


> I don't think that all the nerve, temperament, hyperactivity and numerous health problems in the breed can be placed on crappy owners.
> 
> 
> The owners can certainly cause issues but are not responsible for what their dog has genetically.



That is kind of twisted logic.....the owners aren't "crappy" just because their dog has a problem. 

The problems are from the mass production of less than solid dogs to meet the demand of people wanting a puppy for "just a pet"...meaning they don't want to buy a "show" dog ie - spend more than a minimal amount of money...and breeders who throw together anything to meet the demands of that market.

Lee


----------



## my boy diesel

*I'm just against watering the breed down to suit the needs of the average pet owner. A good GSD is more work than many breeds, and many pet homes are not willing to meet their needs IME. 

David Winners
______________*

there has to be middle ground
you guys are making it sound like every gsd out there is a machine that works 24/7 without a break and cannot be happy as a pet

then there are those who say their dog is happy being a pet and does not require hours of biting a sleeve to be happy

and as i understand the breed and after owning them for nearly 15 yrs they are well rounded and can excel at just about anything they put their paw to including being the 'protector' /shepherd of children in an average home where they go outside and play and go for regular walks but do not "need' hours and hours of intensive excercise


----------



## simba405

glowingtoadfly said:


> What's wrong with the minivan of shepherds? Is that the point of this thread?


The get a golden retriever. Don't try to turn a sports car into a family car.


----------



## simba405

Creating dogs without the intense drive to work/train is an insult to the breed. 

Trying to take away natural suspicion and aggression from the breed is an insult. 

Every time I meet a shepherd without ball drive I just shake my head.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Simba, I was making a joke. Not saying I would prefer that.


----------



## holland

simba405 said:


> The get a golden retriever. Don't try to turn a sports car into a family car.


Have you ever owned a golden seriously ...because they can be rather energetic dogs...they were bred for hunting-they are working dogs


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

holland said:


> Have you ever owned a golden seriously ...because they can be rather energetic dogs...they were bred for hunting-they are working dogs


 
LOL ask the gun dog people how many Goldens are actually being used in the field. 99.99% of goldens are useless for anything other then pets. Selective breeding at its finest.


----------



## simba405

holland said:


> Have you ever owned a golden seriously ...because they can be rather energetic dogs...they were bred for hunting-they are working dogs


Please. The Goldens of today are nothing close to a working breed. If I had to choose a dog to work they would be last on the list. I'm talking about both drive and temperament.


----------



## shepherdmom

simba405 said:


> The get a golden retriever. Don't try to turn a sports car into a family car.



Two things. One the breed is already watered down it's too late. That genie isn't going back in the bottle. 

The second thing is , I don't think the experts here are talking about the same dog. The dogs David Winners and Packen and Bailiff are talking about are the reality of the sport world and are not at all the well rounded dog that lee is going for. And when the experts don't agree we wind up with what we have today a bajillion different lines within the same breed. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

The dogs they are talking about are very well rounded. Those posters all live with the dogs they are talking about. 
The point was the average person that owns a dog cannot handle such a dog. I include most on this board in that group. It has nothing to do with how well rounded the dog is.


----------



## Merciel

simba405 said:


> Please. The Goldens of today are nothing close to a working breed. If I had to choose a dog to work they would be last on the list. I'm talking about both drive and temperament.


Goldens are a perfectly fine working breed. They dominate guide-dog programs and competition obedience (where it's actually fairly uncommon to see GSDs anymore, much less good ones), they're well represented in hunt tests and field trials, they do quite well in agility and nosework.

The breed is not without its problems, but I don't know why Goldens are the go-to example when people on this board want to call out "soft" dogs, when in fact they're in pretty good shape for as popular as that breed has become.

There are plenty of breeds where it is actually astounding to find a dog who can do any kind of work. Goldens aren't one of them, and it is frankly quite strange to me to see people asserting otherwise. They're _so_ good that running a well-bred Golden in obedience is almost like playing on cheat mode.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

As common dog sense deteriorates in favor of ignorance or a lot of the new age fluff thats passed off as training these days the ability to handle such a dog is also fading.
Thats why you breed them big, pretty, slow, low drive, no aggression / suspicion and sell them to all the people that want a "loyal protective couch potato".

The kind of dog Vicotria Stillwell "loves" to train ..


----------



## onyx'girl

> Goldens are a perfectly fine working breed. They dominate guide-dog programs and competition obedience (where it's actually fairly uncommon to see GSDs anymore, much less good ones), they're well represented in hunt tests and field trials, they do quite well in agility and nosework.
> 
> The breed is not without its problems, but I don't know why Goldens are the go-to example when people on this board want to call out "soft" dogs, when in fact they're in pretty good shape for as popular as that breed has become.
> 
> There are plenty of breeds where it is actually astounding to find a dog who can do any kind of work. Goldens aren't one of them, and it is frankly quite strange to me to see people asserting otherwise. They're so good that running a well-bred Golden in obedience is almost like playing on cheat mode.


The showline golden or the field line? There is a split with that breed as well.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Merciel said:


> Goldens are a perfectly fine working breed. They dominate guide-dog programs and competition obedience (where it's actually fairly uncommon to see GSDs anymore, much less good ones), they're well represented in hunt tests and field trials, they do quite well in agility and nosework.
> 
> The breed is not without its problems, but I don't know why Goldens are the go-to example when people on this board want to call out "soft" dogs, when in fact they're in pretty good shape for as popular as that breed has become.
> 
> There are plenty of breeds where it is actually astounding to find a dog who can do any kind of work. Goldens aren't one of them, and it is frankly quite strange to me to see people asserting otherwise. They're _so_ good that running a well-bred Golden in obedience is almost like playing on cheat mode.


Getting off topic but..
I have an interest in gun dogs one again the vast majority of even supposedly well bred goldens are useless for that or serious field competition.
Go to breeds are Drathaar, GSP, Lab, Puddle Pointer, Spaniels. 
Dont take my word for it just ask those that hunt upland, waterfowl, and or compete seriously in gundog competition.

Service work is a completely different kettle of fish, you want high thresholds, social and handler sensitive. 

The reality is Goldens are generally social, sensitive, and low energy dogs. Hence the perfect pet or service dog. Not what you want in a GSD.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Notes from a Dog Rescue in Progress and The Dog in the Clouds blog are very good reading about a fearful golden.


----------



## wolfstraum

my boy diesel said:


> *I'm just against watering the breed down to suit the needs of the average pet owner. A good GSD is more work than many breeds, and many pet homes are not willing to meet their needs IME.
> 
> David Winners
> ______________*
> 
> there has to be middle ground
> you guys are making it sound like every gsd out there is a machine that works 24/7 without a break and cannot be happy as a pet
> 
> then there are those who say their dog is happy being a pet and does not require hours of biting a sleeve to be happy
> 
> and as i understand the breed and after owning them for nearly 15 yrs they are well rounded and can excel at just about anything they put their paw to including being the 'protector' /shepherd of children in an average home where they go outside and play and go for regular walks but do not "need' hours and hours of intensive excercise


:headbang::headbang::headbang:

No - not true....my dogs are drivy as anyone's and Komet - who is a super competition prospect - only gets to work on a helper sporadically...he likes to go swimming, to a field to chase a ball....he's a happy camper as long as I can blow off the energy....that is what a good balanced dog is like!

Lee


----------



## Merciel

onyx'girl said:


> The showline golden or the field line? There is a split with that breed as well.


My understanding is that a lot of the top programs (for obedience and seeing eye work, I mean) are not clearly one line or the other, but incorporate some of both and go back to before the split was as pronounced as it is today. That said, as a general matter I imagine that you'll see more and better hunting dogs coming out of the field lines. But even the show breeders have, IMO, done a better job of preserving working ability in the show lines than what I've seen in GSDs.

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on Golden breeding, though. I'm just baffled when I see people saying that these dogs can't work. They can and do work beautifully. I see them excelling all the time.


----------



## lalachka

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> The dogs they are talking about are very well rounded. Those posters all live with the dogs they are talking about.
> The point was the average person that owns a dog cannot handle such a dog. I include most on this board in that group. It has nothing to do with how well rounded the dog is.



And you can, I'm assuming. And who said that you can? Who decides which owner is fit to handle which dog. I guarantee you wouldnt be on some knowledgeable people's list either. 

Enough with this bs already. You guys really feel the need to feel superior in something? This is sad and funny to read at the same time

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----------



## Jack's Dad

*Character*
The German Shepherd Dog must be well-balanced (with strong nerves) in terms of character, self-assured, absolutely natural and (except for a stimulated situation) good-natured as well as attentive and willing to please. He must possess instinctive behaviour, resilience and self-assurance in order to be suitable as a companion, guard, protection, service and herding dog.

Breed standard from United Schutzhund Clubs of America.

Seems like a nice family dog to me. Not even watered down.


----------



## Merciel

I mean if you want to talk about dogs that have largely lost their original working ability, look at Dobermans. _There's _a cautionary example. The breeders trying to push Dobies back up that hill have really got their work cut out for them.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

lalachka said:


> And you can, I'm assuming. And who said that you can? Who decides which owner is fit to handle which dog. I guarantee you wouldnt be on some knowledgeable people's list either.
> 
> Enough with this bs already. You guys really feel the need to feel superior in something? This is sad and funny to read at the same time
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Lol I have never contacted a breeder that was not willing to sell to me..didnt think that was an issue for anyone really. 

Unless your comments to them raise red flags that you will be returning the dog because you cant handle it you shouldnt have any issue buying from anyone.

Do you want me to tell you that I think you can handle most high end strong dogs? Maybe you can I dont know you.

It has nothing to do with superiority and everything to do with reality. A quick browse through the forum tells you about how much most members can handle.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Merciel said:


> I mean if you want to talk about dogs that have largely lost their original working ability, look at Dobermans. _There's _a cautionary example. The breeders trying to push Dobies back up that hill have really got their work cut out for them.


Very true. I have seen some interesting crosses that are promising but never a straight dobe that was worth anything.


----------



## lalachka

One more thing. Read the posts from the dreaded pet people about how far they go for their dogs. How they spend 10k on one surgery, 40k on vets in general, the lengths to which they go to keep their dogs healthy, the amount of work and money they put in their nerve bags. If I was a breeder those homes would be my priority. 

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----------



## lalachka

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Very true. I have seen some interesting crosses that are promising but never a straight dobe that was worth anything.


You know John Soares? 

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----------



## Blitzkrieg1

lalachka said:


> One more thing. Read the posts from the dreaded pet people about how far they go for their dogs. How they spend 10k on one surgery, 40k on vets in general, the lengths to which they go to keep their dogs healthy, the amount of work and money they put in their nerve bags. If I was a breeder those homes would be my priority.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Those are the homes that encourage and continue to make breeding a poor quality product profitable.

When your stock is held accountable on the competition field and in training on a regular basis. Word about what you are putting out gets around real fast, working people arent to shy about returning low quality pups and making their displeasure and experience known.

If your breeding for nothing more then money the first group is best, if your breeding to actually improve the breed and challenge yourself the second group is what you shoot for.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

lalachka said:


> You know John Soares?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


He texts me every day..lol.

Seriously though..I am aware of what he does with Dobe's. You can put lipstick on a pig..its still a pig. If you find one without nerves, that can bite and fight then you better enter the lottery cause you are LUCKY .


----------



## Vandal

> The German Shepherd Dog must be well-balanced (with strong nerves) in terms of character, self-assured, absolutely natural and (except for a stimulated situation) good-natured as well as attentive and willing to please. He must possess instinctive behaviour, resilience and self-assurance in order to be suitable as a companion, guard, protection, service and herding dog.


 Except a "stimulated situation"? lol......Oh my, I get so tired of the watered down language. 

Now they have started to twist the words of the standard in order to soften the dogs further. Think I predicted that some years back and now it's happening
.
Original version concerning character:
The German Shepherd should appear poised, calm, self confident, absolutely at ease, and (*except when agitated*) good natured, but also attentive and willing to serve. He must have *courage, fighting drive, and hardness *in order to serve as companion, watchdog, protection dog, service dog, and herding dog.


----------



## Jack's Dad

Vandal said:


> Except a "stimulated situation"? lol......Oh my, I get so tired of the watered down language.
> 
> Now they have started to twist the words of the standard in order to soften the dogs further. Think I predicted that some years back and now it's happening
> .
> Original version concerning character:
> The German Shepherd should appear poised, calm, self confident, absolutely at ease, and (*except when agitated*) good natured, but also attentive and willing to serve. He must have *courage, fighting drive, and hardness *in order to serve as companion, watchdog, protection dog, service dog, and herding dog.


Still sounds like a nice family dog to me.









Maybe not for everyone but then some people shouldn't Shih Tzus either.


----------



## lalachka

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> He texts me every day..lol.
> 
> Seriously though..I am aware of what he does with Dobe's. You can put lipstick on a pig..its still a pig. If you find one without nerves, that can bite and fight then you better enter the lottery cause you are LUCKY .


I know they're a rarity. Just saying that your word is not law. You might not have seen one but they exist. Same with your opinions on who should own which dog  

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----------



## Vandal

> Still sounds like a nice family dog to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe not for everyone but then some people shouldn't Shih Tzus either.


You're missing the point. All these politically correct words have a big impact. I have witnessed it over the years. The helper was once known as an agitator. Fight drive is now "ability to withstand stress" and on and on it goes . As it does, the dogs go too.
It does indeed matter how the dogs are described and what words are used to do it.


----------



## lalachka

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Those are the homes that encourage and continue to make breeding a poor quality product profitable.
> 
> When your stock is held accountable on the competition field and in training on a regular basis. Word about what you are putting out gets around real fast, working people arent to shy about returning low quality pups and making their displeasure and experience known.
> 
> If your breeding for nothing more then money the first group is best, if your breeding to actually improve the breed and challenge yourself the second group is what you shoot for.


That wasn't my point. My point is that those are the homes that go above and beyond for their dogs and to me that matters above the titles they can put on a dog

We have different definitions of what a good home is and that's OK. But no one should say that a sport home is the best home. I'm being very careful and not saying bad stuff about sport homes though I don't agree with the way their dogs are looked at. It'd be nice to get the same in return. 

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----------



## David Winners

wolfstraum said:


> :headbang::headbang::headbang:
> 
> No - not true....my dogs are drivy as anyone's and Komet - who is a super competition prospect - only gets to work on a helper sporadically...he likes to go swimming, to a field to chase a ball....*he's a happy camper as long as I can blow off the energy*....that is what a good balanced dog is like!
> 
> Lee


I'm in total agreement with you. It's when people get a dog like that, with all that intelligence, energy, physical ability and desire to do something, and then expect it to lay around like a mastiff,that things go wrong.

We're talking about the same type of dog. I'm just not saying it very well 

Fama is working about 10% as much as she was in Afghanistan and she's perfectly content. If I miss a day of exercise and training altogether she fine. If I was to just feed her and let her out in the back yard for a couple of weeks straight she would be bouncing off the walls.


----------



## lalachka

Jack's Dad said:


> Still sounds like a nice family dog to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe not for everyone but then some people shouldn't Shih Tzus either.


Huskies. There another breed that most people shouldn't touch. It's not the breed. If a person can't step up and make sure the dog's needs are met then they shouldn't own dogs. Every breed has quirks, some more than others. It's not the breed, it's the people. 

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----------



## Blitzkrieg1

lalachka said:


> I know they're a rarity. Just saying that your word is not law. You might not have seen one but they exist. Same with your opinions on who should own which dog
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


My comments about dobes are based on my personal experience not just what I read on the net.

Show me ONE good dobe..with good nerve, drive and fight. 

I havent said anything about who could own what dog. Its a free country get what you want. 

Its a forum if you dont like hearing other peoples opinions log out .


----------



## lalachka

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Lol I have never contacted a breeder that was not willing to sell to me..didnt think that was an issue for anyone really.
> 
> Unless your comments to them raise red flags that you will be returning the dog because you cant handle it you shouldnt have any issue buying from anyone.
> 
> Do you want me to tell you that I think you can handle most high end strong dogs? Maybe you can I dont know you.
> 
> It has nothing to do with superiority and everything to do with reality. A quick browse through the forum tells you about how much most members can handle.


I missed this one. No, I don't need you to tell me anything. Including telling me which dogs I'm fit to own. 

Exactly, any breeder will sell to any reasonable person. So what's the point of saying that most people here can't handle a real gsd?

You don't know the dogs they're posting aboit, they might be total genetic messes that not too many people can deal with. 

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----------



## Jack's Dad

Vandal said:


> You're missing the point. All these politically correct words have a big impact. I have witnessed it over the years. The helper was once known as an agitator. Fight drive is now "ability to withstand stress" and on and on it goes . As it does, the dogs go too.
> It does indeed matter how the dogs are described and what words are used to do it.


So you wind up with a weaker test and down the line weaker dogs?


----------



## lalachka

Vandal said:


> You're missing the point. All these politically correct words have a big impact. I have witnessed it over the years. The helper was once known as an agitator. Fight drive is now "ability to withstand stress" and on and on it goes . As it does, the dogs go too.
> It does indeed matter how the dogs are described and what words are used to do it.


I hate euphemisms. People are watered down these days too, why wouldn't dogs be?

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----------



## Blitzkrieg1

lalachka said:


> That wasn't my point. My point is that those are the homes that go above and beyond for their dogs and to me that matters above the titles they can put on a dog
> 
> We have different definitions of what a good home is and that's OK. But no one should say that a sport home is the best home. I'm being very careful and not saying bad stuff about sport homes though I don't agree with the way their dogs are looked at. It'd be nice to get the same in return.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Yes those homes enable people producing garbage to continue doing so. 

You think the dog cares if you spend 40k on him or 2k?

I guarentee you the dog cares if he is worked or not. 

Maybe if the dog needs 40k or even 10k in vet bills the dog is better off PTS. This idea that a good home breaks the bank to keep the dog alive no matter how many times he bites or how many health issues crop up is why there is such a proliferation of poor stock out there today.

As a breeder why an earth would I care how many pets I produce? Im breeding a working dog, if they arent working or competing then what have I achieved? 

Nothing more then the local Humane Society or Doodle breeder.


----------



## lalachka

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> My comments about dobes are based on my personal experience not just what I read on the net.
> 
> Show me ONE good dobe..with good nerve, drive and fight.
> 
> I havent said anything about who could own what dog. Its a free country get what you want.
> 
> Its a forum if you dont like hearing other peoples opinions log out .


Who said I read about him?
I don't have one to show you, watch videos of him with the dog. They do exist. You haven't seen one. I bet you there are many more things you haven't seen or read about. 

I will ignore your posts when I feel like it, for now I feel like engaging you. Free country and all. 

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----------



## Blitzkrieg1

lalachka said:


> I missed this one. No, I don't need you to tell me anything. Including telling me which dogs I'm fit to own.
> 
> Exactly, any breeder will sell to any reasonable person. So what's the point of saying that most people here can't handle a real gsd?
> 
> You don't know the dogs they're posting aboit, they might be total genetic messes that not too many people can deal with.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Well since I own a half sibling to one of those dogs, know the breeder and can find video and the accomplishments of the other dogs, Ill take their word for it  over some pet owners love filled descriptions of their strong protective powerhouse. 

"He would be a champion its just me that holds him back"..."I would take video I just dont know how too.."


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## Blitzkrieg1

lalachka said:


> Who said I read about him?
> I don't have one to show you, watch videos of him with the dog. They do exist. You haven't seen one. I bet you there are many more things you haven't seen or read about.
> 
> I will ignore your posts when I feel like it, for now I feel like engaging you. Free country and all.
> 
> *Likewise.*
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 
I have watched his videos. Once again show me ONE good Dobe.


----------



## Vandal

> So you wind up with a weaker test and down the line weaker dogs?


 Is what I am saying that unclear? 
That's what has happened while they claimed they were protecting SchH from the Green Party, ( i.e. Animal Rights groups), and every other "reason" they could come up with to make it all a big fat farce. The courage test is now the "long pursuit" or some such nonsense and now that part of the standard has been perverted to make the dogs sound more socially acceptable. Padded stick was supposedly about the ARs and the fear it would be viewed as abuse. Abuse is producing dogs who can't handle the work the breed was intended to do. That is what has happened while they try to appease idiots and fanatics but it is more than that. It is the show crowd who runs the SV and the parts of the test that really separated the wheat from the crap were removed for more than just the ARs. It was so they could get to the ring and run in left circles faster without the inconvenience. 
People wonder why I have lost the desire to do SchH....that's why. I have done it so long, I still want to and still work my dogs but the attitude and the lies just wear me out. It's almost more frustration than it is worth. Never was easy finding a place to train, now it's almost impossible due to the mentality in the people and the words and terms used by these organizations and judges is encouraging all of it.


----------



## lhczth

*Can we please stop the personal back and forth childish bickering and also leave out the other breeds, PLEASE. This is a GSD board and the ruination of other breeds has nothing to do with the GSD. *

*ALSO, some people need to stop acting as though every post they don't agree with is a personal attack on them. This is a discussion board. People discuss ideas and, yes, opinions. If you can't read an opinion without feeling as though they are talking about you or some how insulting you or hurting you then maybe it would be best to just walk away for awhile and not respond. *

*Stay on topic as best you can. There are some members that like to take the discussions in other directions that are not remotely on topic and it gets really frustrating. No one wants to read through post after post of off topic stuff. It is rude and it starts to annoy the moderators. *

*Thank you,*

*ADMIN Lisa*


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## lhczth

Anne, my ADMIN comments were not directed at you. You just happened to post right before I did.


----------



## Vandal

I didn't think they were Lisa. It is clear who you are talking about.


----------



## Jack's Dad

Vandal said:


> *Is what I am saying that unclear? *
> That's what has happened while they claimed they were protecting SchH from the Green Party, ( i.e. Animal Rights groups), and every other "reason" they could come up with to make it all a big fat farce. The courage test is now the "long pursuit" or some such nonsense and now that part of the standard has been perverted to make the dogs sound more socially acceptable. Padded stick was supposedly about the ARs and the fear it would be viewed as abuse. Abuse is producing dogs who can't handle the work the breed was intended to do. That is what has happened while they try to appease idiots and fanatics but it is more than that. It is the show crowd who runs the SV and the parts of the test that really separated the wheat from the crap were removed for more than just the ARs. It was so they could get to the ring and run in left circles faster without the inconvenience.
> People wonder why I have lost the desire to do SchH....that's why. I have done it so long, I still want to and still work my dogs but the attitude and the lies just wear me out. It's almost more frustration than it is worth. Never was easy finding a place to train, now it's almost impossible due to the mentality in the people and the words and terms used by these organizations and judges is encouraging all of it.


Probably not, I'm just slow but I think I've got it now.


----------



## Steve Strom

Vandal said:


> Is what I am saying that unclear?
> That's what has happened while they claimed they were protecting SchH from the Green Party, ( i.e. Animal Rights groups), and every other "reason" they could come up with to make it all a big fat farce. The courage test is now the "long pursuit" or some such nonsense and now that part of the standard has been perverted to make the dogs sound more socially acceptable. Padded stick was supposedly about the ARs and the fear it would be viewed as abuse. Abuse is producing dogs who can't handle the work the breed was intended to do. That is what has happened while they try to appease idiots and fanatics but it is more than that. It is the show crowd who runs the SV and the parts of the test that really separated the wheat from the crap were removed for more than just the ARs. It was so they could get to the ring and run in left circles faster without the inconvenience.
> People wonder why I have lost the desire to do SchH....that's why. I have done it so long, I still want to and still work my dogs but the attitude and the lies just wear me out. It's almost more frustration than it is worth. Never was easy finding a place to train, now it's almost impossible due to the mentality in the people and the words and terms used by these organizations and judges is encouraging all of it.


Are you at least a little encouraged by the direction of USCA to get back to being more of a breed suitability test ? Not just a sport?


----------



## Steve Strom

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I have watched his videos. Once again show me ONE good Dobe.


----------



## Vandal

> Are you at least a little encouraged by the direction of USCA to get back to being more of a breed suitability test ? Not just a sport?


 I didn't notice that being a priority. If I had, I doubt I would have been overly excited about it. I have watched while they promised to clean up the absolute cheating that goes on at shows and breed surveys. For some reason they needed FIVE YEARS to accomplish that. Uh huh, long enough for people to forget they ever promised to fix anything.
Whoever wrote that version of the standard should be fired if you ask me. That's on the USA web site according to Jack. That is not the standard but they are representing it as such. That makes me want to let my membership lapse....again.

They have the AWD title. I'd love to see them change the name of that title back to Schutzhund along with the old rules....... since that name can't be used anymore in the rest of the world........have to water it down...can't say something that might indicate the dog bites you know. Someone might get upset. Oh yeah, they did used to call it a bite, now it is a grip. ....like I said...on and on it goes right down the drain.


----------



## bill

I'm shocked Anne" it is really sad how the times have changed sch" and the standard" I have been out of the loop too long am truly shocked" and its unreal I can see why you feel like you do. Bill

Stahl my boy!


----------



## shepherdmom

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> As a breeder why an earth would I care how many pets I produce? Im breeding a working dog, if they arent working or competing then what have I achieved?


Wait so I'm confused. Are they putting working titles on the show dogs? Or are we just talking about WL shepherds?


----------



## selzer

shepherdmom said:


> Wait so I'm confused. Are they putting working titles on the show dogs? Or are we just talking about WL shepherds?


Uhm, they put a lot of working titles on show dogs. The problem people see in that is that the work that passes in the trials, is not up to par for many people that are into it. 

For that matter, I am shocked at what passes in the Rally and Obedience rings, and wonder why so few shepherds are there. 

But as for Schutzhund/IPO, breeding protocol in Germany requires the titles on the dogs, and to enter the sieger show, the dogs must be titled, and I believe if the dog is entered again, or above a certain age it must have an IPO 3 or the herding title.

So working titles on show dogs are the norm in Germany. They also do show ratings on working dogs over there. 

In AKC rings, show dogs sometimes have obedience titles, and occasionally they have herding titles as well.


----------



## lhczth

*I just removed some posts. If I am ignored by anyone else warnings will be issued and you can count this as the first warning against the OT bickering and the OT discussions about other breed. *

*ADMIN Lisa*


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Can someone please talk about thresholds? Does anyone have a dog with a moderate threshold?


----------



## onyx'girl

IPO was designed as a breed test. Though from what I see(on fb pages, a local one included) only about 1% of GSD owners work their dogs in the sport....or even know what it is besides the protection phase. 
In my location, there are several GSD's, yet not one club specific to the breed is around. The local kennel club has some Am SL's representing, seldom if ever are working lines present.
I find that sad...but as we all know, the breed is supposed to be versatile so doing IPO isn't a biggie for anyone actually owning a GSD. Most of the dogs are house pets, do nothing other than being a companion. They are mostly purchased out of the online classifieds, hardly anyone with these dogs even know about the pedigree background, even if they have papers in hand.
Is that a fair representation of my area, or is it a rarity?


----------



## lalachka

What if breeding was not illegal but required something, i don't know, education in genetics, a must to work dogs, whatever, a bunch of requirements and it was illegal to breed otherwise. 

Would that have made a difference today? Or is it too far gone?


----------



## glowingtoadfly

lalachka said:


> What if breeding was not illegal but required something, i don't know, education in genetics, a must to work dogs, whatever, a bunch of requirements and it was illegal to breed otherwise.
> 
> Would that have made a difference today? Or is it too far gone?


I think American culture where it is today is too market-based. The culture around animals would have to change. In Germany, I believe it is different. Perhaps someone could speak to that?


----------



## onyx'girl

glowingtoadfly said:


> Can someone please talk about thresholds? Does anyone have a dog with a moderate threshold?


Balanced threshold is what I'd want(I have!) Karlo is fairly high threshold, but when it comes to protection work,it is a bit lower. Though he is very clear headed and thinking. I personally would rather have a thinker than a dog that just reacts without thinking. I wouldn't want the dog to wait forever to engage, either. Balance is key.


----------



## lhczth

> What if breeding was not illegal but required something, i don't know, education in genetics, a must to work dogs, whatever, a bunch of requirements and it was illegal to breed otherwise.
> 
> Would that have made a difference today? Or is it too far gone?


 The SV has breeding requirements. Rules can be worked around, distorted, broken. Rules and laws do not make for better dogs. Breeders and an educated, discerning buyer makes for better dogs. If we want to maintain the GSD as a utilitarian working dog (jack of all trades, master of none) then it is up to the breeders to do so and the buyers to support those who do.


----------



## lalachka

It can be both. But since bybs are responsible for a huge number of dogs (from what I read) then shutting them down would make a dent. 

And then, supporting the good breeders can start happening. Right now, there are so many dogs available from bybs that people getting their first dog don't have the need to research. They go and buy a dog. If there were no byb 300$ pups available they'd have to start doing some kind of research, talk to breeders, get educated in the process. No? Like right now there's no need to pause and think about it. You want a dog - you can have one in an hour. 


But here's another problem, it's not easy to tell who's good and who's not. We have some people here that did it the right way, references, research, met dogs and ended up with a mess health wise.


----------



## onyx'girl

well, when they do it the right way, the breeder stands beside the owner in what was produced and shows responsibility. The breeder that is responsible will uber screen the potential owner as well...and *try* to make sure they are setting the pups up to succeed.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Steve Strom said:


> Eiko vom Landgraf 2012 AWDF IPO3 - YouTube


 
Lol I was waiting for someone to come up with something. 

My response:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rG9mAbG5OuU



There are always exceptions to the rule.


----------



## selzer

lalachka said:


> It can be both. But since bybs are responsible for a huge number of dogs (from what I read) then shutting them down would make a dent.
> 
> And then, supporting the good breeders can start happening. Right now, there are so many dogs available from bybs that people getting their first dog don't have the need to research. They go and buy a dog. If there were no byb 300$ pups available they'd have to start doing some kind of research, talk to breeders, get educated in the process. No? Like right now there's no need to pause and think about it. You want a dog - you can have one in an hour.
> 
> 
> But here's another problem, it's not easy to tell who's good and who's not. We have some people here that did it the right way, references, research, met dogs and ended up with a mess health wise.



To begin with the problem, there is no agreed-upon definition of BYB out there. Sorry. What you think when you say BYB and what I think when I say BYB are not one and the same. So how will you shut down something that truly does not exist?

First you will have to define BYB. Well, you won't. The government will have to do this. How? How will beaurocrats who have been put into office for every reason but their knowledge of dog breeding, define what constitutes a BYB? 

Would they even know that there are different lines of GSDs? They would likely go to the AKC which is the breed registry of note here in the US, and have them somehow define what a BYB is. Now, how would the working line people want to let the AKC qualify what constitutes a BYB? Think about it, really. I mean, the AKC is a registry of all breeds. Their definition of BYB might be something like, breeds dogs that are not registered, or breeds dogs that do not have championships (though admittedly, the AKC would never suggest that because that would limit the number of registered litters, which is how they make money). 

So who will define BYB for us? Who will the beaurocrats choose to do so? If you choose working line people, than they will want IPO titles or working certifications on breeding stock -- The American Showline people will never go for this, and no way are there enough WL breeders out there to keep the AKC from going bananas and getting off their duffs to stop legislation like that. 

And if you choose AKC people, American Showline people, then you are likely to have exactly what you have now. Maybe some token, requirement for hip scores on the dog. But they couldn't care less about working titles or even obedience titles on the dogs. 

The problem is that this is not something our government _should _be trying to govern. And the AKC is an all-breed registry, they are really not the right people to define what makes a BYB when it comes to GSDs. Who then? The GSDCA -- same problem, these are mostly specialty line American show line Dogs. No group of breeders within the GSD community will ever agree on a definition of BYB that all can live with.

Frankly, it is up to the buyer to determine what kind of dog they want, and if they do not choose well the first time, then they will have a much better ground to stand on when they get their next dog, and they will be much better prepared, more experienced to make that second dog work out.

How many people get a dog at a BYB and go through physical and temperament issues while raising their dog, and then do the research, go to a breeder and have a much better experience the second time around? Well, some of that is no doubt getting a puppy with better breeding from lines that are better suited to what the buyer wants, but maybe just a little bit of that is because the buyer has struggled through that first pup, and has learned so much.

We do not learn the most from pups who are easy peasey to manage and train. We learn from the ones who are challenging, the ones we have to figure out how to motivate, the ones that have some issues, and maybe some of those issues are due to our handling, and maybe the next puppy is a lot better because we make adjustments we do not even realize and we avoid pain in doing so. 

Whatever. There is no answer to BYBs. You can pick a number out of the sky and place breeders into groups by the number of puppies they produce, but BYBs span a continuum to having just one litter to having 100s of puppies.


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## onyx'girl

My post above describes the opposite to what I think a byb is. 
Who gives a rip about the #'s or the $...it is about showing responsibility for what you are producing and where those puppies are placed.


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## lalachka

This sucks. I see what you're saying. I mean I knew that each breed and sometimes even lines within the breed will have diff requirements (ipo for working line, show titles for show lines, etc) but I figured there can be a health minimum for every breed that must be done, breeding mutts should be illegal period (until there's no dogs in shelters at least) and the titles and stuff can be thought through. 

But you're right, this will never get done. But IF it did, would this have made a diff? Would it then be easier to get the breed to where it should be?

I understand that for this to happen breeders have to be working together to am extent. I don't know. This is complicated on many levels and it means things will continue to go down hill


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## lalachka

onyx'girl said:


> well, when they do it the right way, the breeder stands beside the owner in what was produced and shows responsibility. The breeder that is responsible will uber screen the potential owner as well...and *try* to make sure they are setting the pups up to succeed.



Yeah I'm sure there can be a definition of a byb agreed upon but selzer is right, this will never happen.


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## selzer

lalachka said:


> This sucks. I see what you're saying. I mean I knew that each breed and sometimes even lines within the breed will have diff requirements (ipo for working line, show titles for show lines, etc) but I figured there can be a health minimum for every breed that must be done, breeding mutts should be illegal period (until there's no dogs in shelters at least) and the titles and stuff can be thought through.
> 
> But you're right, this will never get done. But IF it did, would this have made a diff? Would it then be easier to get the breed to where it should be?
> 
> I understand that for this to happen breeders have to be working together to am extent. I don't know. This is complicated on many levels and it means things will continue to go down hill


In Germany, to get pink papers on a dog, the dog must be bred to a whole list of requirements, including health clearances, breed survey including protection, show rating, IPO or herding titles, endurance testing and so forth. And yet, people here do not see the dogs that place highly at the sieger show as improving the breed. In fact, many feel that they have seriously flawed the breed. Max himself said something to that effect, but he put the working aspects as requirements to judging and the conformation as the selector for sieger/siegerin. Had he done the opposite and required a minimum of a SG or V to be entered into a schutzhund competition, and to be named Sieger, you would then need to win the schutzhund competition, then the breed would take on a different overall look and temperament than the type of requirments to breeding that is current in Germany now.

The SV at least is a breed club, and not an all breed registry. But evenso, not all the dogs coming out of Germany with pink papers have the health and temperament and structure that one might expect. I have never been to nor lived in Germany, so I really do not know if it is just a matter of filling out the forms and all breedings are pretty much ok'd just like here. If it isn't all that difficult to get the minimum required to breed in each section. I don't really know. 

But I don't see how we in the states could have done more than they do, and yet the dogs are still not what people would want them to be. Can the dogs succeed as working dogs?

Remember too, that my guess is that the best dogs are staying put, and breeders are downloading dogs here that are not necessarily the cream of the crop. Why sell your best prospect for making sieger next year? And yet, a lot hinges on what judges are putting up, and if they like a particular look, then dogs that have that look will be bred. 

Also, when you give VA to 8 dogs in a year, and VA1 is 1 dog -- that dog is going to be heavily bred. The eight are going to be heavily bred, and other dogs are going to be ignored. The refused to name a sieger/siegerin for a number of years for this reason. I am not sure how that experiment worked out, but in the end they started naming them again. 

In short, no, I don't think it would help or would have helped.


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## Doc

wolfstraum said:


> The biggest problem in this breed is the "average pet home" - they want the look of the GSD and the personality of a Golden......hence the mass production of unsuitable dogs.
> 
> Lee


You may have a different opinion if you ever had a German shepherd with predominance Swabian bloodlines. Stephnitz himself knew any dog with more than 30 percent Thuringian bloodlines could not do the things he wanted in his breed. He consistently went back to strong Swabian lines to correct the balance he desired in his breed. Study the early breeding history, and the dogs he turned to when things got out of balance. They were all dogs that were high threshold, low to medium drive.
He and other breeders commented over and over that the hardest thing to teach a German shepherd should be how to bite.


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## hunterisgreat

Steve Strom said:


> Eiko vom Landgraf 2012 AWDF IPO3 - YouTube


Most interesting part of the video to me, my male was in the dog trailer in the background of blind 6 last month. 

Anyway, nice for a dobe but mediocre at best for a GSD. Dog also ran a routine around the blinds. I want to see a dog round a blind growling and on point only to discover its empty. And when I say "dog, heir, revere", he better look at me and divert to me until I command revere.


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## shepherdmom

onyx'girl said:


> I find that sad...but as we all know, the breed is supposed to be versatile so doing IPO isn't a biggie for anyone actually owning a GSD. Most of the dogs are house pets, do nothing other than being a companion. They are mostly purchased out of the online classifieds, hardly anyone with these dogs even know about the pedigree background, even if they have papers in hand.
> Is that a fair representation of my area, or is it a rarity?


I never heard of IPO until I joined this forum and I've never seen it except YouTube videos. I doubt most people around here or where I lived before have any idea what it is or what it means. I doubt most people around here would even pay the byb price. Most dogs live outside, ride in the back of pick-ups and many run free. You want a shepherd you wait till billy bob's female has her puppies and you go trade him a 6 pack of beer for one. BTW the bigger the better. I can't tell you how many people have asked me where I got the mini shepherd from and why would I want such a small dog? (Dude is just over 50 lbs). Health testing what is that? Your dog gets sick and dies you go get another one. Really you can talk all you want about the importance of educating people working lines /show lines titles blah blah but the reality is most of the general population has no clue and doesn't want to know.


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## Merciel

selzer said:


> For that matter, I am shocked at what passes in the Rally and Obedience rings, and wonder why so few shepherds are there.


Because, by and large, they don't do well.

What I am _told_ (by people who have been doing this much longer than I have, because I'm new and this is not what I see today) is that the GSD used to be considered "the breed to beat."

They're not anymore. This is what I see: AKC showlines wobbling through novice courses (mostly in Rally, less often in obedience) and pulling mediocre scores so the breeder can "prove they can work"; BYB dogs and mixes, mostly owned by novice competitors (this is where I'd class myself right now); some WLs who are too spun up and reactive to do well in AKC-type environments that are closely confined, crowded, and full of unfamiliar dogs in their faces constantly; and a rare handful of WLs and German showlines who do nicely.

When I _do_ see a nice dog, I light up and take notice. But it doesn't happen all that often. If I see two genuinely impressive GSDs at a match or trial, that's an unusually good showing.


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## dogfaeries

Merciel said:


> Because, by and large, they don't do well.
> 
> What I am _told_ (by people who have been doing this much longer than I have, because I'm new and this is not what I see today) is that the GSD used to be considered "the breed to beat."
> 
> They're not anymore. This is what I see: AKC showlines wobbling through novice courses (mostly in Rally, less often in obedience) and pulling mediocre scores so the breeder can "prove they can work";


There are a few GSDs around my area doing obedience. Carly's half brother just got his UD this weekend here in Oklahoma City. Apparently qualified all three times he was entered. Now, I don't know what his scores were (could be 170's for all I know!), but his owner put the work in on him. He also has been shown in conformation and has about 5 points. And some Rally titles too. He's an American show line.


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## Merciel

I kind of regretted that part of my post and I'm glad you called it out, because I know that sometimes I veer into the "AKC showline dogs can't do anything _blaaah!_" crap, and it's pretty thoughtless. I'm sorry about that.

So, just to be clear, I don't want to come across like I'm making a blanket condemnation of "none of these dogs can do anything!"

I know there are showline dogs out there who can work, and who work well. I would love to see lots more of them. I would really like the GSD to move back toward universal working ability, and I think it's _awesome_ that a SL has his UD. It's really, really impressive to get that in three tries, whatever the scores. I hope more dogs out of that breeder's program do the same, and prove the naysayers wrong.

This is definitely a situation where the more wrong I'm shown to be, the happier I'll be about it.


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## Zeeva

Gosh your threads ALWAYS blow up.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Most any WLs as long as its not a complete genetic mess should have no issue with rally or AKC obedience.
Im also going to guess that most people that know enough about were to find a good WL are putting their hand to more challenging sports. 

Most of that reactiveness is probably just handlers not knowing how to cap their dogs and channel their drives or having poor control. See it on the IPO field all the time, Im assuming its worse in the AKC events.


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## dogfaeries

Merciel said:


> I know there are showline dogs out there who can work, and who work well. I would love to see lots more of them. I would really like the GSD to move back toward universal working ability, and I think it's _awesome_ that a SL has his UD. It's really, really impressive to get that in three tries, whatever the scores. I hope more dogs out of that breeder's program do the same, and prove the naysayers wrong.



Not a problem! I know I'm definitely a slacker when it comes to training. I admire every last one of you that gets a title on a dog. My dogs are just conformation dogs, albeit nice ones. My breeder rarely ever breeds anymore, but there is a dog out of Russell's litter that is doing tracking, and her owner is having a blast with her. He trains with a bunch of police officer friends. Of course they have him convinced that he needs to get a "real" GSD next time. Well, we know what that means. Argh.


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## martemchik

I belong to our local breed club. It's one of the largest in the United States, and really it is the AKC stuff that gets pushed. They've basically outlawed bite sport on the grounds so that will probably never happen.

I am a novice handler, but I have a WL dog. For the past 3 years I have been doing AKC stuff. It's not the commitment IPO is, and its much easier to get into a trial and get results. I will say, my dog was tough to beat. Our only competition did come from goldens and sometimes a good border collie or two. The work was fun, but if you look at an AKC obedience level (novice, open, or utility) its very boring. It's tough to keep doing that stuff for hours and hours. I could see my dog getting bored with many of the exercises. I'm not knocking AKC stuff, I loved it. I still do. It's fun, it gets people doing stuff with their dog, it gets people seeing what else is out there.

I'm now into IPO. It's much more interesting, and much more fun for both me and the dogs. That's where I think most high level GSD competitors are. They're in some sort of bite sport. If you're going to dedicate your hobby to a sport, and you have a shepherd, its likely you're going to do that sport. I still see a lot of our club members doing AKC, but that's because that's all they know and also because that's all their dogs are capable of. I've seen dogs get through a UD, that would never make it into an IPO trial in the first place. Not saying its not a great accomplishment, it is. But the AKC stuff is very much the skill of the handler/trainer. Where as the IPO, although a great handler can make a dog better, if the dog doesn't have what it takes...no amount of handling will help it get there.

Also, the whole thing about a GSD not being able to handle that environment. I've heard that excuse plenty of times. It's a handler excuse. Not a dog excuse. Most shows aren't big. They're fairly quiet. And if your dog has the level of obedience on it that is needed for a qualifying score in the AKC ring...it shouldn't have any problems surviving that environment. At strictly obedience/rally trials, people are extremely respectful and generally quiet. They want you to succeed. They want to win, but they don't care if you get a leg while they're at it.


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## GatorDog

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> My comments about dobes are based on my personal experience not just what I read on the net.
> 
> Show me ONE good dobe..with good nerve, drive and fight.
> 
> I havent said anything about who could own what dog. Its a free country get what you want.
> 
> Its a forum if you dont like hearing other peoples opinions log out .


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ad5DtZHemb8


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## björn

Breeding GSDs to be more "medium" will mean they can´t do what the breedstandard tells they are supposed to be like. The issue isn´t if a dog can have a period of less activity without going crazy, but they are supposed to be able to work hard when demanded and not be suitabel an "active" pet only, which there are plenty of breeds that are more suited for.

As far as dobes there are some nice ones breed for work, like this one who also is a working securitydog,


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## Merciel

martemchik said:


> Also, the whole thing about a GSD not being able to handle that environment. I've heard that excuse plenty of times. It's a handler excuse. Not a dog excuse. Most shows aren't big. They're fairly quiet. And if your dog has the level of obedience on it that is needed for a qualifying score in the AKC ring...it shouldn't have any problems surviving that environment. At strictly obedience/rally trials, people are extremely respectful and generally quiet. They want you to succeed. They want to win, but they don't care if you get a leg while they're at it.


There are plenty of WL dogs that can't handle it. I don't know the dogs real super well, and I cannot say for sure whether they're like that because of handling or genetics (I think it's genetics, because I have seen some of those same handlers do much better with other dogs), but they have significant trouble in that environment. They look like the frenetic, hectic, unable-to-settle dogs that people talk about occasionally on this board.

Also, for purposes of this discussion, I'm not talking about getting qualifying scores or "surviving the environment." I see plenty of dogs doing that. Most of them (and I include myself and Pongu here) are fairly lackluster. They don't make you sit up and go "wow." But they qualify. They get their titles.

I'm not really interested in that, though. When it comes to OM/OTCH-level excellence, _that_ you don't see very often. But that is what I hope to someday achieve and so that's what I spend my time looking for in dogs. I am always trying to answer the question, "where do I find an Imaginary Future Puppy that can be an OTCH dog?"

I'm in a really competitive area for obedience. You need to be great, and you need to have a great dog, to be anything close to a contender. Very few of the people I see at that level are running GSDs. The handful I know of all have WLs, other than two ladies with German showlines. (I am not entirely convinced that this happens because all the great trainers switch to IPO, either. There are several top national competitors in my area, and a few others just a notch below them, who run working-line Malinois or Tervuren. It can't just be that "all the trainers with bitey breeds switch to bitey sports," because those Mal and Terv handlers definitely don't do IPO and their dogs definitely could.)

Again, I'm absolutely not arguing that WLs can't hack it (or else I wouldn't be as obsessed with getting one as I am). What I _am_ saying is that it's a reasonable question to ask "why aren't there more of them in the AKC ring?"


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## Andaka

martemchik said:


> I am a novice handler, but I have a WL dog. For the past 3 years I have been doing AKC stuff. It's not the commitment IPO is, and its much easier to get into a trial and get results. I will say, my dog was tough to beat. Our only competition did come from goldens and sometimes a good border collie or two. The work was fun, but if you look at an AKC obedience level (novice, open, or utility) its very boring. It's tough to keep doing that stuff for hours and hours. I could see my dog getting bored with many of the exercises. I'm not knocking AKC stuff, I loved it. I still do. It's fun, it gets people doing stuff with their dog, it gets people seeing what else is out there.


Its all in how you train. Drilling for hours will bore most GSD's to tears. And you don't have to drill to teach and get good scores.


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## martemchik

Merciel said:


> There are plenty of WL dogs that can't handle it. I don't know the dogs real super well, and I cannot say for sure whether they're like that because of handling or genetics (I think it's genetics, because I have seen some of those same handlers do much better with other dogs), but they have significant trouble in that environment. They look like the frenetic, hectic, unable-to-settle dogs that people talk about occasionally on this board.
> 
> Also, for purposes of this discussion, I'm not talking about getting qualifying scores or "surviving the environment." I see plenty of dogs doing that. Most of them (and I include myself and Pongu here) are fairly lackluster. They don't make you sit up and go "wow." But they qualify. They get their titles.
> 
> I'm not really interested in that, though. When it comes to OM/OTCH-level excellence, _that_ you don't see very often. But that is what I hope to someday achieve and so that's what I spend my time looking for in dogs. I am always trying to answer the question, "where do I find an Imaginary Future Puppy that can be an OTCH dog?"


But those dogs also wouldn't be able to handle IPO either. It's not like that environment is that much different. The dogs that excel at IPO, the dogs that are national level, would be able to mop the floor with the dogs in the AKC ring if that's what their owners decided to do. So if the point is to blame "IPO/sport breeding" for the degradation of nerve...it's not so.

The issue with rally...is that generally those competitors are not that serious about it (no offense). It's something they got into, but if they were truly serious about obedience work, they'd be moving onto AKC obedience. There are people that go after OTCH, but again, a lot of that is a handler dedication thing and doesn't tell you the dog is what I would consider to the standard of the GSD.

AKC rewards precision, completion, not really the speed/willingness of a dog to do the work. A dog that takes a minute to find the article, and comes back into a perfect front, is rewarded more than the dog that takes 5 seconds to find the right article and comes back and sits 3 degrees crooked. Same thing in rally...precision and correctness is rewarded rather than an amazing performance. Someone can take 5 minutes to run a course, get 100 points, and beats someone who's dog is having much more fun, but accidentally bumps the handler once and loses a point although they finished in 40 seconds and had that "wow factor."

This is kind of more of the discussion of what sport is a better test of the conformation to the written temperament, and at this point, I don't believe that AKC obedience is the proper test of a GSD's temperament. IPO is meant for working breeds...AKC is meant for ALL breeds.


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## Merciel

martemchik said:


> But those dogs also wouldn't be able to handle IPO either. It's not like that environment is that much different. The dogs that excel at IPO, the dogs that are national level, would be able to mop the floor with the dogs in the AKC ring if that's what their owners decided to do. So if the point is to blame "IPO/sport breeding" for the degradation of nerve...it's not so.


I'm honestly not sure about whether national-level IPO dogs would be able to compete at NOI level in AKC obedience.

I would like to see that, because you're not the first person I've heard make that type of claim, but it'll probably never happen just because the amount of work it takes to hit the top in one sport kind of prohibits you from reaching the same level in another. There aren't more than (I think) three or four dogs across all breeds, ever, that have gotten both an IPO3 (just the title, not even counting regional or national competition results) and an OTCH.

I do agree that IPO is a much stronger test of the dog's character, of course, even accepting as true some of the criticisms that have been leveled against the sport in this thread. There's still no contest that a triathlon sport is a better measure of the dog's strength than pure obedience would be.

And it's not my intention to argue that "sport breeding" has degraded the breed. Right now I look at IPO breeders and solid IPO dogs because I think that's where I'm most likely to find a really good prospect for my next dog. There are, to my knowledge, no dedicated obedience breeders in GSDs (nor do I think there should be, although it'd make my life easier).

But it is a fact that for whatever reason, if you go into AKC obedience today, you don't see a whole lot of GSDs at the top.


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## Jack's Dad

björn said:


> Breeding GSDs to be more "medium" will mean they can´t do what the breedstandard tells they are supposed to be like. The issue isn´t if a dog can have a period of less activity without going crazy, but they are supposed to be able to work hard when demanded and not be suitabel an "active" pet only, which there are plenty of breeds that are more suited for.
> 
> As far as dobes there are some nice ones breed for work, like this one who also is a working securitydog,
> IDC-IPO-WM 2014 Lozorno, Slovakia - YouTube


*The German Shepherd Dog must be, in its essential image, well-balanced, firm in nerves, self-confident, absolutely calm and impartial, and (except in tempting situations) amiable. He must possess courage, willingness to fight, and hardness, in order to be suitable as companion, watchdog, protector, service dog, and guardian.

*Ok. Another SV version of the standard. It says clearly as companion. So do the other versions say this in one way or another.

This topic was about all the GSDs out and about that are not well balanced,or firm in nerves. It says absolute calm. How many do you see like that. Courage-How about the ones that hide and shrink away from people, sounds, surfaces etc... No there are too many like that.
What about all the health problems that plague the breed? 

Perhaps I should have not used the word moderate. In the U.S. people tend to not like anything moderate. To many it means mediocre or less than.

How can you have a dog like any of the versions of the standard if they are nervy, hyper, reactive to all sorts of stimulus, and too quick to bite. Owners can be saddled with 10 to 15 years of managing fearful dogs that may bite some one.

Companion dogs should be within the breed standard but unfortunately many are not.


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## GatorDog

I think that a dog who does well at the IPO nationals should be able to handle some environmental stress. A strange stadium with crowds and noises and people everywhere is stressful for me to even imagine showing my dog in that environment. 

I also think it would be super difficult to focus on serious IPO training and trialing along with AKC obedience at the same time. The time commitment to IPO is pretty unreal.


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## martemchik

Andaka said:


> Its all in how you train. Drilling for hours will bore most GSD's to tears. And you don't have to drill to teach and get good scores.


It's not the training, its the exercises. Trust me, I was doing it in short intervals, trying to keep it fun. But at the end of the day, when the most "difficult" exercise is a retrieve over a jump or the article search. It's not the most exciting sport in the world. 99% of people would rather do 10 minutes of bite work than 5 minutes of retrieves.

It's the reason rally and agility are so much more popular right now than the actual obedience ring...simple fun factor.

I also believe that because of the risk of NQ, many people don't have the patience to do the sport. Your dog has a split second brain fart, you've failed and lost $30. Now...that is part of what makes a UD and especially a UDX so amazing...but its also part of why people quit. After practicing, practicing, practicing and your dog doing things perfect in training, your dog ends up making a simple mistake and you end up NQ.

Anyways...no one's going to convince me that a national level IPO dog, doesn't have the nerve to go through an AKC trial. Sorry...if that IPO dog can deal with the stress of trialing at IPO nationals...they can surely do it at the GSDCA nationals.


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## Merciel

martemchik said:


> Anyways...no one's going to convince me that a national level IPO dog, doesn't have the nerve to go through an AKC trial. Sorry...if that IPO dog can deal with the stress of trialing at IPO nationals...they can surely do it at the GSDCA nationals.


No, that's really not the argument I wanted to make.

If anything, it's the opposite. While I have seen some spun-up hectic dogs that I personally would not want (and who, as you point out, probably wouldn't do so great in IPO either, not that I'm in any position to know that for myself), the programs that seem to have done the best job of preserving working ability are the ones that really emphasize IPO. Again, that's where I would look to find an excellent obedience dog. Even if I didn't want to try IPO with my future puppy (which I do!), it's those breeders who are producing the dogs that I see putting in the best performances in the AKC rings. Those are the dogs that I see serious competitors running.

The dogs I see from other programs generally do not impress me very much. I am not a breeder and I can't tell you why that is. I can only say that my personal observation has been that these dogs don't do a whole lot better -- and not infrequently do worse -- than my literally insane fearful pound mutt, and that is pretty sad.


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## martemchik

I think the reason you might see the "hectic" dogs in the AKC ring is that people end up getting a WL from a sub-par breeder and then realize they need to do some sort of work with the dog. IPO is a huge commitment, usually an hour or more away for training, and not something that is just casually trying to get their dog to do will be very good at. AKC training is more readily available and much more achievable IMO...so people get into that with their questionable dogs.


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## selzer

I think obedience is pretty boring too. Agility is probably a better fit for someone who is bored with obedience. They do not all have to do bite-sport. There are a lot of different ways to go in AKC. We do not have to bore the dogs to get higher scores. In fact, less training, and more discipline on the human side of the equation will improve scores. I mean, if we stop with repeated commands, and watch our body language, and clean up our turns, and our changes, we can get our dogs from the get go to be a lot better over all in the run. 

I have been off the show circuit for a couple of years, still do training in the summer. But I saw only a couple of working line dogs out there, mostly they were show lines, whites, and pet-lines. I like the venue because it gets pet people to do more with their dogs, and to train more than just basic household manners. 

I have trained in agility, the dogs love it. But the handler -- not a fit.


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## GatorDog

I entered Carma in Novice A obedience this week and as soon as we walked out of the ring we were swarmed by people. Now let me just say that before we went in the ring, people were going out of there way to avoid us and her. Once we were done, everybody was commenting on her wonderful temperament and lovely attitude and how well put together she is structurally. A few people were saying that they hadn't seen a GSD in the obedience ring in years...And the last ones that were there were horribly nervy. 

And my IPO dog, having never been in a ring before in her ENTIRE LIFE, kicked some serious butt today. Other than a few little errors, I think she's probably one of those types that could easily bounce between venues with little difficulty.


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## lhczth

:thumbup:


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## Merciel

GatorDog said:


> Other than a few little errors, I think she's probably one of those types that could easily bounce between venues with little difficulty.


I think so too.

And the reactions of people at that show probably tell you something about how rare it is to see that. Because yeah, what Carma showed in that run is _not_ the norm for what I see among GSDs in AKC competition. _That's_ the quality of focus and stability that I'm trying so hard to find, and I've only seen it in a small handful of dogs so far (Nymeria v Wildhaus being another).


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## onyx'girl

Congrats on the great representation of your handling/training Alexis, and the good breeding of Carma.
N litter Wildhaus is showing itself to be a really nice breeding, Nimbus(Conall) and Nova that I see regularly are quite impressive too, still young but moving right along in their achievements!


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## wolfstraum

I have done alot of my OB on my IPO dogs in AKC groups...a good friend is a judge who helped when Rally was implemented...we did a "simon sez" kind of combo ob and agility class for about a year and my young dogs got to learn A frames and jumps there. These classes give you the opportunity to train under the pressure of environmental distractions, other dogs and people in close proximity and just general a busier environment than the typical IPO club style. 

The majority of what I have seen in the AKC ring is bored dogs - not just GSDs but all breeds!!!! Dogs who lag, who don't focus, who stop and survey the crowd and play catch up....there was an imported Kirschental dog at some shows a few years ago and I think the dog was bored silly....a small percentage of dogs at most shows are competitive, but most are just there to get by....I have always gotten good feedback from judges and spectators when I have shown in the AKC shows with my WL dogs....

I have always done CDs on my dogs...just realized Csabre only has 2 legs and will get her 3rd when there is a show convenient. I got pretty disgusted at the last show I entered....lost ZERO points in all but the heeling....Showing Basha, who is really up in ob, always with me, sat quick and straight and never once lost her on a turn...but she wrapped and I got hit 14 points for it!!!! Meanwhile dogs who were 20 steps BEHIND the handler got hit 1 or 2 points...I was so annoyed that I just did not show the next day (hence the missing leg on Csabre and why I did not finish Basha's CD either)....

Right now I am going to a "drop in" ob class that my friend is teaching and she is trying to get me to concentrate on competing in AKC ob with Komet....whose IPO work is very nice as well...

Lee


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## Merciel

wolfstraum said:


> Dogs who lag, who don't focus, who stop and survey the crowd and play catch up....


Mostly this is stress, at least when I've seen it.

Pongu does all those things (in fact we crashed and burned at our last _fun match_ this past Sunday because he did every one of those three things repeatedly) and it is straight-up stress, anxiety, and fear. He's not bored, he's terrified out of his mind.

Not to say that there aren't demotivated dogs too, because sure, there's definitely plenty of that, but most of what I have seen is either bad training or an overly stressed dog (which might also be bad training, but is at least equally often just that the dog has weak nerves).

...which goes right back to why I stalk IPO dogs and, to circle all the way back to the original point of this thread, why I think it is so important for breeders to aim for excellence rather than "moderation."

For _every_ purpose, you want the same things: stronger nerves, better resilience, higher drive.

Whoever is breeding the dogs that I typically see in the obedience ring has not been doing that, and it shows.


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## Castlemaid

GatorDog said:


> I entered Carma in Novice A obedience this week and as soon as we walked out of the ring we were swarmed by people. Now let me just say that before we went in the ring, people were going out of there way to avoid us and her. Once we were done, everybody was commenting on her wonderful temperament and lovely attitude and how well put together she is structurally. A few people were saying that they hadn't seen a GSD in the obedience ring in years...And the last ones that were there were horribly nervy.
> 
> And my IPO dog, having never been in a ring before in her ENTIRE LIFE, kicked some serious butt today. Other than a few little errors, I think she's probably one of those types that could easily bounce between venues with little difficulty.


I've had a similar experience with Gryffon in the Rally-O ring. A friend of mine talked me into trying it out, and we did about three practice sessions together going over the Rally signs. Then I signed up for a fun match. 

People didn't know me there, or course - and when my turn came up, people were hissing to each other in an alarmed voice: "German Shepherd! German Shepherd coming in!", and as I went out to get Gryff, people where franctically putting their dogs in their crates, and plastering themselves against the wall to give us lots and lots of room to make our way back in to the ring. 

Absolutely no issues with Gryff, who was used to outdoor field OB with only a small number of dogs that he knows well, to do an OB routine of new and unusual exercises, in a small crowded place (relative to what we were used to), in the same room where a number of unknown dogs were crated, and by which we had to walk by to get in. 

I've only done a couple or trials, our one and only qualifying leg was 200 out of 200 points - rest I mess up and we get disqualified (dog is fine - full points, handler needs to focus more - Need more balance!). 

But the funny thing is that the last time I tried, (and bombed), was that in contrast to our first time described above, when I showed up at the trial, the same people that were, in a panic, putting away their dogs and trying to make themselves invisible to Gryff, now mobbed us, asking to pet him, delighted that Gryff pushing into them for pets, bringing them a tug and trying to engage in play. They were impressed with his calm, happy, friendly personality. 

Nothing but compliments at what a nice dog he is. 

Sorta sad about their previous initial reaction which is a result of the German Shepherds they usually see at Rally and CKC obedience venues.


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## cliffson1

Is Nymeria owned by Melanie?


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## Chris Wild

cliffson1 said:


> Is Nymeria owned by Melanie?


Yes, Cliff. Nymeria "Shadow" is owned by Melody (not Melanie.. but close) over there in your neck of the woods.


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## Liesje

Just some thoughts based on the last few pages I've read.....

Around here, most of the GSDs I see in AKC or UKC obedience and rally are American Line GSDs (and many in agility too, though I see more WGSL and WL in agility than other AKC events) so it would be no surprise that people would expect that type (or expect them to be nervebags, or go through their performances like they don't really want to be there). I am not one that will instantly write off all Am Lines just because, there are a good many that I actually do like, but they frustrate me. I have been attending meetings of a local GSD club which is basically all Am Line people. They keep asking me to come because they want someone to help them find opportunities for sport/work and other titles. The thing is, every time I go I give them lots of opportunities to attend the other events and training I do, I've invited them to agility class, to flyball practice, Schutzhund club...but never once has any one ever shown up. They keep *saying* that temperament is important and that they are going to prioritize working and training their dogs, but they don't. Each time I go, I see their latest puppies that are being dragged around on choke chains with their tails pinned between their legs (while my puppy is walking around off leash, saying hi to the other dogs, drinking from the water bowl, chasing a ball in the corner....). I used to do AKC Rally-O with a working line bitch and every time we showed, people would come up to me and whisper in my ear "now that is a real GSD" (ironically though, that dog WAS a total nervebag!).

I think each competitive venue tests a dog and owner in different ways. I personally can't say that a dog who can do well on a Schuthzund field has rock solid nerves because my experience doing Schuthzund has been that you are on a huge field with *one* other dog doing a long down over 50 feet away (as opposed to an RE I did with the honor dog in the middle of the tiny ring) and the only exposure to people is the judge and trial sec, plus the group during ob which is an exercise that the dog has undoubtedly done many times. Now compare that to an event like flyball where at any given time you are competing in a space 1/10th the size of the SchH field, you have *at minimum* 15 people in that space (8 handlers, judge, 2 loaders, 2 line judges, 2 box judges), 8 of those people are running around, screaming, and probably waving toys, there are at minimum 8 dogs all loose in this space, and the side of the ring is packed with additional people and their dogs barking and screaming. That's just a whole different level of stuff a dog has to be able to sort through mentally and stay focused. I won't say one is "harder" - SchH ob vs. flyball - but they are different and hard to compare. Some dogs might get more freaked out on the SchH field having a huge wide open space with *one* person, usually a male judge, creeping alongside them during their performance while other dogs might lose their minds in flyball which can only be described as utter chaos in a tight space (at least in our region which is always indoors, so a finite ring size/runback). I've seen good SchH3 dogs get really weird being asked to stay on task working inside a building and I've seen good flyball dogs completely ignore their handler and run wild when asked to do a demonstration outside in a big field. 

Again, neither is better/worse, easier/harder but they are different and having done both (and a whole lot more) I couldn't say that because my dog performed well in X-environment, he'd be totally fine in Y-environment. My experience has shown that often people who insist this about their dogs get proven wrong. The only way to know is to actually DO it. Like watching Alexis and Carma. AKC obedience is the one sport I really am not interested in but seeing a very young dog I know has been trained to a high level for SchH go into a ring for the first time and perform like that, that means something and is not just someone talking up a dog but going out there and showing that their drivey working line dog is not out of control and can deliver a fantastic performance.


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## wolfstraum

that is an interesting perspective on flyball......3 of mine (Fyurie, Errow Sch3, and now my young imported female Panther/Zibera, BH w IPO expected in the next few months) are doing it and I never put alot of value on it.....but your comments are food for thought, and I can see that flyball does put stresses on the dog that will give you insight to it's character and temperament.

Lee


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## Liesje

I don't know if "value" is the right word. I should have said, I do not see these things as BREED tests. There is value to me personally because it's a venue I like doing, but there may not be any value to you or anyone else and that is fine, but understand that it is extremely chaotic and can be stressful to a dog in ways no other venue can (I'm thinking of perfect passing here, dogs running at top speed head on into each other and having to pass nose-to-nose on the line in a lane that is 3' wide). My point is just that a dog that acts fine/stable in one environment may not be a dog that will ever be able to work in another venue, or a dog that someone else would want for a different venue. When I see dogs at Schutzhund I'm not making any assumptions about how that dog can handle flyball or agility or SDA or.... You can make good assumptions about whether they have the right physique or drive for other venues but not whether they'd be safe running flyball or not lose their mind doing agility.

I see high value in Schutzhund as a breed test. Each phase tests things about GSDs that are very important when it comes to being a GSD. But if you are like me and want to go above and beyond just the minimum of what a decent GSD should be able to demonstrate, Schutzhund is not going to carry over like some people think it does (and vice versa). It's more valuable for breeding though, because we're breeding GSDs, not flyball dogs or agility dogs.


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## coachcj

Vandal said:


> I think mostly the problems lie with the combinations being done and what has taken place over the last ten years or so in the way the dogs are bred. There seems to be more of the same type of dog now. That type of dog was always there, I saw them years ago. It was just that they were used differently. Not this same type bred to the same type. They were used to achieve a balance. Because of this, finding the right male for breeding is much more difficult. I also think because of the way the dogs are trained for SchH now, seeing that difference in type is much more difficult. I know for a fact that some very good dogs are being discarded because people do not understand how to work them. They don’t fit the type of training the owner has planned to do before the dog was ever born, and suddenly it is not a good dog. Not all dogs work to their optimum level with food and toys or with an e-collar on. Not all dogs work well when the training is all about chasing and playing. I have seen and worked dogs who looked like absolute crap due to the previous play/prey based training, only to look great once someone reached inside and touched another side of that same dog.


This is so, so true, Carmspack. Matter of fact, I recently spoke on something similar to this on another thread. A lot of pups are prematurely labeled as duds because they aren't chasing tugs/balls at 9,10 weeks old. Some dogs just have a more stern personality and don't want to be part of the in crowd. To me, these are the dogs that aren't necessarily sharp dogs, but just not friendly with everyone. 
It's funny , the gentlemen who taught me so much are older gentlemen who've been around the GSDs for a while and always say how the dogs were in the 70s when they got started ( I wasn't around in the 70s,lol). I used to just think that they were just subscribing to the "It was so much better in the good ol days" mentality, but from reading what I see you and many other more experienced breeders/trainers on here say on here, I truly believe it. 
Another funny thing is the way that I see a lot of people train who've been training for a long time. Maybe it's just me, but I know trainers who didn't fool around too much with puppies. They didn't build up pups too high because they didn't want to "knock them out of balance". (I'm not saying this is correct, just highlighting some of the different training styles). They would pretty much tell you to just love the pups, give them the "house rules", and bring them around a year. So growing up seeing this style, I was pretty shocked seeing so many people constantly flirtpoling a pup ! Like I said, I'm not saying that one side is correct or not, just talking about the differences in training styles/dogs/imprinting that have taken place.


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## wolfstraum

As all in IPO sport know, many many dogs are "micky moused" through IPO titles......scores are not indicative always of ability....if you know the judges clubs and players, some are going to be suspect....I have 'seen' (in video and in person!) 1. a 94 protection score on a dog who does not catch the helper until way way off the field proper, 2. a 98 on a dog who came off the sleeve on a stick hit on the escape bite 3. a 97 on a dog who not just looked at the handler coming to the blind but ran back and forth during the hold and bark 4. a dog who circled the decoy during the back transport for at least 10 paces....at least three were should have been dismissed, and the one severely penalized in points....and these were not WGSL dogs either. 

Other venues are valuable for further information on the dog's nerve strength, drives and ability to focus. Flyball, as you cite, can show environmental strength and stability, as can many venues of AKC rally, ob and Agility....*seeing dogs who can work in IPO successfully and who are able to successfully combine that with participation in other areas enhances and substantiates evaluation of the dog's breedworthiness IMO*. I have always done AKC OB, played in rally a bit and trained some IPO stuff in agility venues (A frame and jumps) with my breeding females.

Lee


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## bill

Titles bought? Any sport can be crooked" one bad apple is all it takes" and you can find good and bad dogs in all lines" I also agree the fly ball crowded" noise! Event" dogs running back and forth" would be a test for nerve. Bill

Stahl my boy!


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## wolfstraum

wasn't saying the titles were "bought" - club trials and judges bending rules a bit too much.....2 of those were same judge, different trials....others were judges who came to the club quite often and know the members, were hosted by the members, and apparently were writing, sneezing, rewarding handler in spite of some glitch, or had seen the dog in training and chose to overlook the rule infraction and reward the overall picture....don't agree with it as some people do not realize and will then argue to the death that it was justified....I can see some leeway on an exercise - and have seen it often but these 4 that popped into my mind were really dogs who should have failed. And I know the one dog WAS extensively bred at that club...so, so much for breedworthiness....he sired quite a few dogs that got titled in the club too..

Lee


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## bill

Didn't literally mean bought! Meant biased" unfair" friend of judge" ect. Should have been more clear sorry.
It would not surprise me though knowing people can be sneaky and unfair! Bull

Stahl my boy!


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## Vandal

While I know there is a certain level of cheating going on....certainly more in one sector of SchH than the other, it is, ( in my opinion of course), more about the test. Years ago, the test would eliminate the dogs who could not do it. It was just accepted that the dogs had to do certain exercises and tolerate a certain level of stress/threat and if they didn't, well.....you would need to get another dog. The way people thought about it was different. Somewhere along the line, people started “helping” each other just a bit too much and of course, parts of the test have been removed. We also have the more “sophisticated” training methods now.

I’ve said it before , the attack on handler, ( meaning coming directly around the blind and straight at the dog and handler), really did test the dogs. While people with good strong dogs always seemed to take it for granted, there was a test there for them as well as the weaker dogs. The obedience required for those dogs added a level of stress to it and it was not simply about whether they would bite there. SchH 1 was all about pressure, not the release of it through escape bites. Then there was that pesky reed stick that some dogs could endure but would then not want to out. You’d have to consider the overall cumulative stress of the entire protection routine, (again, all pressure exercises), done in the same day, after the first two phases, where there was not the careful management of stress, (through the use of “sophisticated methods” ), as there is now. We really did track in the trial also. Meaning the tracks were long in different conditions etc, not the “we don’t have enough space” kind of tracks we see more often nowadays.
Add in the fact that the dogs viewed protection differently, (meaning usually more seriously), and maybe some people will be willing to consider that there was a rather significant difference. Not trying to rain on parades here, just trying to be real is all. 

I think as far as balance in training goes. Yes, it matters. I see the flirt pole stuff too. I might test my dog with one and then I leave it alone. A good dog will bite the helper the first time on the field, they don’t need to be “taught” how to bite. My first SchH 3 dog was an experiment in the new “prey method” at the time. We did it wrong and a dog who was dead serious in real life, was more about the sleeve than I would have liked. Didn’t really stop him from doing very well but I felt that training hid who the real dog was and not in a good way. His son I trained differently, ( more balance and not started until he was over a year old), and he was a dog everyone stopped to watch in protection. Anyway, it does matter how much of one side of the dog you work. Also, when you find a helper who can tap into your dog’s fight drive, you will see an entirely different performance in protection. It is like a switch is flipped when that happens and you don’t get that from only working the dog in “defense”. It is prey work, pressure, and an attitude in the helper....meaning the helper is a very good actor. It is all the drives brought up at once, that brings out the fight drive. 

Last, I’m not saying there are not dogs now who could have done well under those conditions, just that we won’t really know that. On a personal note, for me, it is much more fun when the conditions are difficult and the judge is a good one. I think SchH was much more exciting to watch when we asked the dogs to do more....even tracking was fun to watch vs the “watching paint dry” feeling I get when I watch it now. 
Just take a look at how much the tougher judges are used vs the more easy ones. That says a lot about the way people operate and is why judges with the right degree of toughness are necessary more than how many members an organization has. If they would make it more difficult, I think we would see SchH become much more popular.


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## Merciel

wolfstraum said:


> *seeing dogs who can work in IPO successfully and who are able to successfully combine that with participation in other areas enhances and substantiates evaluation of the dog's breedworthiness IMO*.


Yes, I agree COMPLETELY. 

I am still pretty new, so I won't say I've been around the block a _few_ times, but... let's say I've been around the block once.

If I had to pick a GSD from a breeding program that only titled its dogs in one sport, I would pick IPO. Absolutely. Hands down. If you can only look at one sport, in my opinion, that's the one.

But the great thing is that there are breeders out there titling in multiple sports, and those are the ones that _really_ impress me, for essentially the reasons that Liesje laid out. The more you do, the more it shows, and the more complete the overall picture becomes.


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## blackshep

wolfstraum said:


> that is an interesting perspective on flyball......3 of mine (Fyurie, Errow Sch3, and now my young imported female Panther/Zibera, BH w IPO expected in the next few months) are doing it and I never put alot of value on it.....but your comments are food for thought, and I can see that flyball does put stresses on the dog that will give you insight to it's character and temperament.
> 
> Lee


 Oh absolutely!! My GSD simply can't do it. She has a low threshold and trouble capping her drives, flyball just completely overwhelms her. She loses her mind in that environment.

If you have a dog who can hold it together at flyball (it's chaos!), you have a rock solid dog IMO.


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## dogfaeries

blackshep said:


> Oh absolutely!! My GSD simply can't do it. She has a low threshold and trouble capping her drives, flyball just completely overwhelms her. She loses her mind in that environment.
> 
> If you have a dog who can hold it together at flyball (it's chaos!), you have a rock solid dog IMO.


About 3 years ago, our GSD club had a "Meet The Breed" booth at a local pet festival. It was indoors. They put our booth _directly_ across from the flyball ring, and I have never heard such a deafening racket. I was there all day with Carly, and I thought I would lose MY mind, lol!


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## blackshep

Ha ha! I know, not exactly the place you want to be if you have a headache!


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## Cassidy's Mom

wolfstraum said:


> that is an interesting perspective on flyball......3 of mine (Fyurie, Errow Sch3, and now my young imported female Panther/Zibera, BH w IPO expected in the next few months) are doing it and I never put alot of value on it.....but your comments are food for thought, and I can see that flyball does put stresses on the dog that will give you insight to it's character and temperament.
> 
> Lee


Absolutely - I think Lies's characterization of the sport is entirely on point, and not every dog is going to do well under those circumstances, even a dog that shines in other venues. It looks like just a fun sport but there is quite a bit of training that goes into it before a dog is ready to race in a tournament. A lot of sports work with a dog's natural inclinations but flyball pretty much goes against most of them. Consider that many flyball dogs are herding breeds, with strong chase instincts. It's a very common issue to work through, and it's not unusual for people to spend _years_ training their dog not to chase. 

There are 4 dogs lined up in each lane, with their handlers revving them up at the start. Dogs have to learn to stay in their lane while completely ignoring a dog running next to them 10 or 12 feet away. They have to be focused enough on their job to ignore other dogs being restrained just a few feet away and sometimes right next to them until it's their turn to go, most of which are barking their heads off. And running full speed towards another dog head on and passing it shoulder to shoulder with just inches between them is NOT a natural dog behavior! Desensitizing dogs to passing into another dog and being passed into is something we work on a lot, and some dogs simply won't do both. They either become start dogs or run anchor because they can't run in the pack. It's an extremely loud and chaotic environment, with a lot of people and a lot of dogs off leash in a relatively small area, which can be quite stressful. There's no way to cheat, and there's nothing subjective about it - either your dog can run clean heats on a team, or it can't.



Liesje said:


> I don't know if "value" is the right word. I should have said, I do not see these things as BREED tests. There is value to me personally because it's a venue I like doing, but there may not be any value to you or anyone else and that is fine, but understand that it is extremely chaotic and can be stressful to a dog in ways no other venue can (I'm thinking of perfect passing here, dogs running at top speed head on into each other and having to pass nose-to-nose on the line in a lane that is 3' wide). My point is just that a dog that acts fine/stable in one environment may not be a dog that will ever be able to work in another venue, or a dog that someone else would want for a different venue. When I see dogs at Schutzhund I'm not making any assumptions about how that dog can handle flyball or agility or SDA or.... You can make good assumptions about whether they have the right physique or drive for other venues but not whether they'd be safe running flyball or not lose their mind doing agility.
> 
> I see high value in Schutzhund as a breed test. Each phase tests things about GSDs that are very important when it comes to being a GSD. But if you are like me and want to go above and beyond just the minimum of what a decent GSD should be able to demonstrate, Schutzhund is not going to carry over like some people think it does (and vice versa). It's more valuable for breeding though, because we're breeding GSDs, not flyball dogs or agility dogs.


:thumbup:


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## bill

I agree with you Anne" I liked the courage test" the guarding of object" exc. Politics changing things that don't need changed. J.m.o. Bill

Stahl my boy!


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