# Very interesting ecollar article



## Blanketback

See no evil. Read no evil. Cite no evil. | Smartdogs' Weblog

This is definitely worth reading, especially if you're like me and haven't used an ecollar yet but are keeping an open mind about them.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Ah....the research Queen reigns! 

Great find! 

Interesting, from your link, this was duplicated in the other study Lou Castle mentioned:



> Many people are concerned that the stress of e-collar training will make dogs fearful or aggressive. While the dogs developed an initial conditioned anticipatory fear reaction during the escape training portion of Tortora’s program, _their fear was extinguished_ during the subsequent avoidance and proofing stages. Upon reviewing these results, Tortora stated “_It seems that the impact of safety reinforcement *is to make the dog less fearful generally and better able to withstand trauma*_*.*”


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## Jax08

Original thread on this blog

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...inating-e-collar-training-article-review.html


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## David Winners

From: See no evil. Read no evil. Cite no evil. - Salgirli 2008, Comparison of Stress and Learning Effects of Three Different Training Methods: Electronic Training Collar, Pinch Collar and Quitting Signal, 




> The results of the present study indicate that the electronic training collar induces less distress and shows stronger “learning effect” in dogs in comparison to the pinch collar. The quitting signal is on the other hand not found effective in police dog training although it causes the “least distress” reactions in dogs when comparing with the electronic training and pinch collar. Altogether, concerning the “bodily reactions”, the pinch collar was evaluated as the most distressful method and considering the “learning effect”, the electronic training collar was found to be the most effective method.


From - Schalke, Stichnoth and Jones-Baade 2007; Clinical signs caused by the use of electric training collars on dogs in everyday situations



> In this study Schalke et al. found that when dogs were able to predict and control shocks, they did not show persistent or considerable stress indicators.



It is interesting, and rather telling, that very few anti e-collar articles / studies site the obviously positive study conducted by Daniel F. Tortora. Omitting such research is creating bias in the article or study.


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## Chip18

I've kept an open mind on them also. Especially because I always say any "tool" improperly use can be abused.


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## Blanketback

"After I found Tortora’s article, I decided to conduct a google literature review on articles related to the use of e-collars in dog training. My goal was to get an idea for how widely cited his article was. I spent dozens of hours searching google scholar for articles related to shock collars, remote training collars, electronic training collars and electric collars. I also searched specifically for articles that cited Tortora.
I was shocked by what I discovered and that’s what inspired the above post."

David, that's the part that jumped out at me - where I underlined the text. This bothered the author, and it bothers me too. Sorry Jax if this seems redundant to you, but when Dani posted this last summer I wasn't ready to consider using an ecollar yet, so I didn't pay as much 
attention as I should have.

http://smartdogs.wordpress.com/2010/04/27/see-no-evil-read-no-evil-cite-no-evil/


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## Jax08

Blanketback said:


> Sorry Jax if this seems redundant to you, http://smartdogs.wordpress.com/2010/04/27/see-no-evil-read-no-evil-cite-no-evil/


huh? I posted the original conversation because I thought there might be something worthwhile in there and someone in this thread might benefit. I won't waste my time again.


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## Nigel

Jax08 said:


> huh? I posted the original conversation because I thought there might be something worthwhile in there and someone in this thread might benefit. I won't waste my time again.


I doubt it was meant like that and certainly not a waste time, I missed that thread and will check it out, thanks for posting it. We are currently using an e collar and have solved a couple problems in short order, very happy so far.


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## Gwenhwyfair

After looking over that U.K. forum Blanket Back posted in my Amazon UK thread, let me just say, redundant or not, thank goodness we don't get totally shut down and banned for even discussing the use of e collars or prongs here!


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## Deno

The e-collar is a fantastic tool.

The critics are, for the most part, clueless


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## Blitzkrieg1

Haha some of them are on here...keeping a low profile I notice. What happened to all those vehement arguments? 

Most of the anti studies involve putting an e collar on the dog and zapping it right off the bat for chasing livestock or whatever. Then when the dog is stressed or shutsdown they blame the collar.


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## Freestep

Excellent article, thanks for posting.

"There are far too many cases where great scientific advances were made based on a piece of odd, apparently anomalous or unpopular bit of work that could very easily have fallen by the wayside. Rejecting, ignoring or suppressing data and ideas that don’t fit in with popular thought is a dangerous kind of censorship. And it is crucial that we do all we can to it in a world where science has an increasingly important effect on the personal and regulatory decisions we make."

This sums up how I feel about pretty much everything controversial.


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## DaniFani

Blanketback said:


> "After I found Tortora’s article, I decided to conduct a google literature review on articles related to the use of e-collars in dog training. My goal was to get an idea for how widely cited his article was. I spent dozens of hours searching google scholar for articles related to shock collars, remote training collars, electronic training collars and electric collars. I also searched specifically for articles that cited Tortora.
> I was shocked by what I discovered and that’s what inspired the above post."
> 
> David, that's the part that jumped out at me - where I underlined the text. This bothered the author, and it bothers me too. Sorry Jax if this seems redundant to you, but when Dani posted this last summer I wasn't ready to consider using an ecollar yet, so I didn't pay as much
> attention as I should have.
> 
> See no evil. Read no evil. Cite no evil. | Smartdogs' Weblog


I was going to link the old thread too, mainly because Lou had some great comments on this article and might not feel like re-typing them all up. I'm sure Jax did it for the same reason I was going to (unifying them), not to point out redundancy.


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## glowingtoadfly

Thank you Jax, for posting the other thread. Very informative. I wonder if the trainers who do not use ecollars or prongs are leery of posting their opinions. I've noticed on this forum as a positive trainer that my credentials are immediately scrutinized each time I post despite training for five months at a humane society using positive methods to be a dogwalker. I have been told that my experiences "don't count" because humane societies "know nothing about training" Merciel, in the other thread, simply stopped responding, and Bjorn was browbeaten in another thread. These discussions become very personal fast. JMO


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## volcano

My girl responds great to the vibe setting on my einstein. If anyone says thats abuse they can take a hike.


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## boomer11

Glowongtoadfly, Nobody takes you seriously because you have nothing to back it up with. Your dogs aren't even well behaved so how can anyone take your point of view seriously? 

If a positive only trainer came here and had a new way to do something and actually had video proof of it working and being more efficient then anything out there; I'd bet everyone would listen. Especially if they conveyed their thoughts with intellect instead of emotion.


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## glowingtoadfly

I have nothing against other trainers who use these methods properly. I personally choose not to.


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## glowingtoadfly

boomer11 said:


> Glowongtoadfly, Nobody takes you seriously because you have nothing to back it up with. Your dogs aren't even well behaved so how can anyone take your point of view seriously?
> 
> If a positive only trainer came here and had a new way to do something and actually had video proof of it working and being more efficient then anything out there; I'd bet everyone would listen. Especially if they conveyed their thoughts with intellect instead of emotion.


I posted a video of my girl training and being well behaved.


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## Blanketback

glowingtoadfly said:


> Thank you Jax, for posting the other thread.


Yes  Now why couldn't I have said that yesterday? I do appreciate you taking the time to link them, Jax. I didn't mean to offend you, or to be rude. I guess reading all the dogsey bs rotted my brain? I'm sorry.

GTF, Bjorn never answered my question about who the Norwegian trainer Nordsby is. Same with David Taggart ignoring me regarding the UK trainers Tennant and Wall. Why is that? You can say "browbeaten" because you sympathize with them, but I say they're avoiding me because they're projecting their own particular training style as the only way in their respective countries, but a google search will tell you otherwise.


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## björn

What? First I`m not from norway so I don´t know every dog trainer there, never heard of that guy before either. Secondly, he didn´t talked about e-collars, just as I never have said you must train without any form of corrections but corrections can come in many forms as you know, what I said was corrections is only small part of being a good trainer so I don´t understand this focus on tools over knowledge about training dogs. I guess it´s a personal choice how much anyone are willing to use when it comes to correction and for what purpose, you don´t need sceintific proof corrections in all forms can be effective or have bad or positive effects depending on for what and by whom they are used. Just as rewardbased methods are effective as many have proven, this doesn´t mean you need to go 100% in either direction and for every circumstances.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Well on the UK forum people who even mildly supported the e collar or prongs for *certain* dogs or situations got the BAN hammer. 

(in blue below) This is the 'vicitimization card' and it's one of the gambits that gets under my skin the most. 

I was, as you know, heavily involved in that thread with bjorn. First he was not 'browbeaten' nor was he banned!! Your problem is you are associating his inability to defend his argument logically as people being 'mean' to him and him being a 'victim' of meanies when in fact the only problem he had was he couldn't defend his point of view with information or data. 

Secondly he didn't back down (even though he never presented ANY, NONE, ZERO evidence to support his assertions). At a point both sides realize they are at loggerheads and the convo stops and that's fine. Same with Merciel. She's argued her points, many here have disagreed with her but at some point you realize it's going in circles and you stop. Yet she is still a welcome member on this board who is treated well! She wasn't banned either.

So knock it off with the 'brow beating' stuff. That's an underhanded tactic and yes I'm being blunt with you because what YOU are doing is very unfair. Those of us who do not want these tools banned have the *right* on this forum to defend our point of views. How someone internalizes that is up to that individual, no one else. 

All across the net, facebook and IRL it's the anti ecollar/prong people who shut those of us who support the continued appropriate use of the tools down. They do so by bashing (calling people 'abusers' 'torture tool' users). They ban you off of their forums, they unfriend you on facebook. That's changing though, it's changing because reasonable people who only ask that tools NOT be banned or taken out of stores are finally starting to push back, as well they should!

Third if you argue based on your experience (argument to authority) you're going to have to defend that authority. That's what happens in debates. I don't use that argument too much myself because there's plenty of logic, evidence and evidence to the contrary of the opposing view to support my points. 

Unless someone is calling you bad names or attacking your character or questioning your personal ethics, it's NOT personal. Pointing out that you don't have bonafides, facts or evidence (in general you btw) is not an attack. Often people say it's personal because they can't handle the push back on something they personally believe in. 





glowingtoadfly said:


> Thank you Jax, for posting the other thread. Very informative. I wonder if the trainers who do not use ecollars or prongs are leery of posting their opinions. I've noticed on this forum as a positive trainer that my credentials are immediately scrutinized each time I post despite training for five months at a humane society using positive methods to be a dogwalker. I have been told that my experiences "don't count" because humane societies "know nothing about training" Merciel, in the other thread, simply stopped responding, and Bjorn was browbeaten in another thread. These discussions become very personal fast. JMO


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## Blanketback

I believe you're from Sweden. It was the other link you provided, I believe that was from Norway - so I thought you'd be familiar with another trainer too. I was disappointed that you dropped out of the other thread when Nordsby's name came up, that's all. 

I'm not thinking in terms of 'tools over knowledge' at all. I'm not thinking of zapping my dog into compliance. I don't understand why other people believe this to be the case either. I'm considering using a tool to communicate with my dog, simply put.


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## David Winners

björn said:


> What? First I`m not from norway so I don´t know every dog trainer there, never heard of that guy before either. Secondly, he didn´t talked about e-collars, just as I never have said you must train without any form of corrections but corrections can come in many forms as you know, what I said was corrections is only small part of being a good trainer so I don´t understand this focus on tools over knowledge about training dogs. I guess it´s a personal choice how much anyone are willing to use when it comes to correction and for what purpose, you don´t need sceintific proof corrections in all forms can be effective or have bad or positive effects depending on for what and by whom they are used. Just as rewardbased methods are effective as many have proven, this doesn´t mean you need to go 100% in either direction and for every circumstances.


Here's what it comes down to for me.

I have trained many many dogs without a prong or e-collar. Hundreds even. I know how to use markers, toy and treat rewards, chokers, flat collars, harness... 

You have never used a prong or e-collar. 

You, and many others, have it stuck in their head that a prong or e-collar means a harsher correction by default. This couldn't be farther from the truth. It is what you believe, and you refuse to see it any differently.

You just lack the experience to lend any weight to your claims. It shows in every post. It's like you and I arguing about the food at your favorite restaurant, without my ever dining there.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Back in the Canada ecollar ban thread there was a member who started it back up who is from Norway (member is Mishka&Milo I think....i'll look it up) I responded to her and it went from there.

Then bjorn from Sweden jumped in.



Blanketback said:


> I believe you're from Sweden. It was the other link you provided, I believe that was from Norway - so I thought you'd be familiar with another trainer too. I was disappointed that you dropped out of the other thread when Nordsby's name came up, that's all.
> 
> I'm not thinking in terms of 'tools over knowledge' at all. I'm not thinking of zapping my dog into compliance. I don't understand why other people believe this to be the case either. I'm considering using a tool to communicate with my dog, simply put.


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## Blanketback

Now I'm wondering if me buying a sheepherding whistle means I'm incompetent too. After all, that's another tool I'm introducing to communicate with. Geez, what next, lol.


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## Gwenhwyfair

LOL! You slacker you...

You know though competency is on a sliding scale, like an old fashioned slide ruler where both sides can slide in opposite directions.

If you only need your dog to sit, down and walk on a loose leash you don't need to be an excellent trainer to get excellent results based on much more basic goals.

If you want to compete with the dog, or work the dog in demanding environments like SAR or police work, then depending on the dog, you may need to be an excellent trainer at a higher level and may have to use different methods.

I like to point out that I've trained Autumn force free but A) she's not going to be a competition dog where we need highly refined OB B) she's SO easy to train that she makes me look like a pro, when I'm not.** C) we had her from 8 weeks so she came without any baggage like older dogs may have.

So it's hard to judge competency on these sort of issue because of the high degree of variables of the humans and dogs involved. It also follows though that amongst these variables the effective use of a prong or ecollar will help either a trainer or a dog achieve certain goals.

(**for sure there is always an animal that will come along to take you down a notch or two)



Blanketback said:


> Now I'm wondering if me buying a sheepherding whistle means I'm incompetent too. After all, that's another tool I'm introducing to communicate with. Geez, what next, lol.


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## Blanketback

My goals are very basic - to have a companion dog that doesn't require a leash. I'm totally against using a leash to restrain my dog when they're so easily taught basic commands such as recall, release, stay, heel, etc. I've had 3 other GSDs that were trained to this extent without an ecollar, so I know it's not a necessity. But I also don't think there's anything wrong with exploring my options either.


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## Gwenhwyfair

I've always preferred working with animals that, well, are easy to train *if* I can.

In my years with horses, some of which literally learn to throw their 1,000 plus pounds of weight around, you MUST be flexible and adaptable or someone is going to REALLY get hurt.

I had a horse that had a nasty habit of rearing while being lead. Big horse too, just under 17 hands, off the race track. He'd be up in the air and those front hooves flailing. He must have gotten away with that plenty of times in the past. I tried using a chain woven through the noseband of his halter. No help. 

Finally I ran across a tip from a trainer, take a dressage whip, when the horse goes up, whack the snot out of his legs but ONLY when his hooves aren't touching the ground. I had to do that only two times and he never reared on me again. I didn't like doing that, I hated it, but it had to be done to make the horse safe to handle.

I guess I'm incompetent too.


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## Blanketback

My dog has blown off the recall a few times, because playing with the neighbors' dogs is far more rewarding than complying. Well, naturally, lol! But when I've introduced some +P it's a very simple command to follow. In fact, he's not being recalled: he's following the "Stay here" command after he's raced to the property line, alert to the fun that awaits. Now I could always tie him, or I could forbid him the freedom of the unfenced front yard. Or I could train him, which I've decided works best for us, lol.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Ha!  Can you use +P on neighbor kids who come onto your property to pet the pretty doggies?


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## Blanketback

Gwen, I was going to make a joke about who the ecollar was for - then decided not to, lol. The kids are actually very nice and aren't in the habit of wandering into my yard. I'm very lucky to have such great neighbors, after all the icky ones I've had to deal with over the years!


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## Gwenhwyfair

:thumbup:

The kids are sweet, at least for now, they don't mean any harm. We've double fenced our backyard back lot line. Now a days it's more to keep the kids out then the dogs in though.  




Blanketback said:


> Gwen, I was going to make a joke about who the ecollar was for - then decided not to, lol. The kids are actually very nice and aren't in the habit of wandering into my yard. I'm very lucky to have such great neighbors, after all the icky ones I've had to deal with over the years!


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## björn

I don´t think anyone need "experience" to understand all tools can be used in a better way or worse way, if this is not the case why is it so many people who also trains with e-collars or prongs who don´t get good results, both in sport,service or ordinary life. I ask again then, why would someone benefit from going to a prong or e-collar if they already have plenty of success with their dogs, what would be the benefit of doing so in other words? Is it less stressfull for the dogs, more effective or what is it really? Would we see an increase in wellbehaved dogs in society and also in work if everyone started to use prongs and e-collars for example, that may be an argument the "lawmakers" would consider if this also meant the wellbeing of the dog wouldn´t be sacrificed for quick fixes and as compensation for lack of alternative better solutions.


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## Gwenhwyfair

bjorn we already went around in that circle over and over.

The great, big, huge gaping hole in your argument is *NO ONE* is forcing you into "going to a prong or ecollar" or any other tool you do not want to use. Success is an entirely subjective concept but if you're happy with YOUR results that's fine.

You on the other hand are trying to justify forcing everyone to stop using the tools, many of whom have had 'success' with those tools.

These are two entirely different arguments that you keep conflating and hodge podging together with unsupportable or illogical references.

You don't want to use ecollars or prongs, fine then don't!! 



björn said:


> I don´t think anyone need "experience" to understand all tools can be used in a better way or worse way, if this is not the case why is it so many people who also trains with e-collars or prongs who don´t get good results, both in sport,service or ordinary life. *I ask again then, why would someone benefit from going to a prong or e-collar if they already have plenty of success with their dogs,* what would be the benefit of doing so in other words? Is it less stressfull for the dogs, more effective or what is it really? Would we see an increase in wellbehaved dogs in society and also in work if everyone started to use prongs and e-collars for example, that may be an argument the "lawmakers" would consider if this also meant the wellbeing of the dog wouldn´t be sacrificed for quick fixes and as compensation for lack of alternative better solutions.


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## björn

No, I don´t want everyone to stop using these tools if they in fact are the best solution, I think I also mentioned that before. You are correct, it´s two different arguments and I´m not intressted in the banning or not question once again. It would be more intressting to know why I or everyone should use a prong or e-collar if this in fact is best tools available and those who don´t use them don´t know what they are missing, they are not used only for harsh corrections was said, yes I get that and is all relative what people consider OK or not, but why should someone use a prong if they feel a fursaver/legal collar and other ways of correcting is all you need. I mean there is no point in getting a prong if the only use will be a light correction, unless we aren´t talking about dogs who should just learn to walk on leash.


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## Jax08

björn said:


> I mean there is no point in getting a prong if the only use will be a light correction, unless we aren´t talking about dogs who should just learn to walk on leash.



I disagree. I use a prong for stimulation, not correction, on my puppy. No yank and crank. No pops. Just jiggling it as stimulation using food to teach him what it means and that it isn't a bad thing. There are many ways to use the tools available. And, IMO, if you have to use anything other than a light correction then your foundation may need to be re-evaluated.


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## Gwenhwyfair

In the other thread you did support the ban in your country (which may not really exist btw, we never got verification of that, per Lou Castle). 

Above you infer the burden should be on dog owners to 'prove' to lawmakers why ecollars and prongs should not be banned.

That's wrong, with respect to bans, the burden should be on those who want the bans to prove the bans are indeed very necessary and needed. World wide *one* picture of a dog that had an embedded prong collar removed has thus far stood for 'evidence' in the anti prong/ecollar crowd. That's all they've got beyond appeals to emotion.

Here's the problem, in blue below, *most* people aren't interested in whether you use an ecollar/prong or not.

Really bjorn, they aren't. 

Mostly the only time benefits of e collars or prongs are brought up is in defense of the tool when someone is being told they should NOT use them, that they should be banned.

Then you get the push back of people explaining the positive aspects of these tools, but mostly that is meant in a general sense. It's not meant to imply that everyone SHOULD be using them, far from it actually.

Example: My trainer will NOT allow a client to use a prong until he has worked with them, knows them and their dog and then assesses if he should train the client how to use it. It's part of a process that he goes through and often he determines in the particular case (either due to the owner OR the dog) the collars would not be appropriate or helpful. 

I'm the same way when people compliment my dogs and their behavior I do NOT tell them about the prong and that they should get one. I say thank you and then refer them to my trainer who can better determine what they and their dog needs.

BUT if someone comes up to me and starts giving me a hard time about using a prong THEN I'll defend the tool. However, again, that defense is *not* meant to imply I think 'everyone' should use these tools.




björn said:


> No, I don´t want everyone to stop using these tools if they in fact are the best solution, I think I also mentioned that before. You are correct, it´s two different arguments and I´m not intressted in the banning or not question once again. *It would be more intressting to know why I or everyone should use a prong or e-collar* if this in fact is best tools available and those who don´t use them don´t know what they are missing, they are not used only for harsh corrections was said, yes I get that and is all relative what people consider OK or not, but why should someone use a prong if they feel a fursaver/legal collar and other ways of correcting is all you need. I mean there is no point in getting a prong if the only use will be a light correction, unless we aren´t talking about dogs who should just learn to walk on leash.


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## glowingtoadfly

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Well on the UK forum people who even mildly supported the e collar or prongs for *certain* dogs or situations got the BAN hammer.
> 
> (in blue below) This is the 'vicitimization card' and it's one of the gambits that gets under my skin the most.
> 
> I was, as you know, heavily involved in that thread with bjorn. First he was not 'browbeaten' nor was he banned!! Your problem is you are associating his inability to defend his argument logically as people being 'mean' to him and him being a 'victim' of meanies when in fact the only problem he had was he couldn't defend his point of view with information or data.
> 
> Secondly he didn't back down (even though he never presented ANY, NONE, ZERO evidence to support his assertions). At a point both sides realize they are at loggerheads and the convo stops and that's fine. Same with Merciel. She's argued her points, many here have disagreed with her but at some point you realize it's going in circles and you stop. Yet she is still a welcome member on this board who is treated well! She wasn't banned either.
> 
> So knock it off with the 'brow beating' stuff. That's an underhanded tactic and yes I'm being blunt with you because what YOU are doing is very unfair. Those of us who do not want these tools banned have the *right* on this forum to defend our point of views. How someone internalizes that is up to that individual, no one else.
> 
> All across the net, facebook and IRL it's the anti ecollar/prong people who shut those of us who support the continued appropriate use of the tools down. They do so by bashing (calling people 'abusers' 'torture tool' users). They ban you off of their forums, they unfriend you on facebook. That's changing though, it's changing because reasonable people who only ask that tools NOT be banned or taken out of stores are finally starting to push back, as well they should!
> 
> Third if you argue based on your experience (argument to authority) you're going to have to defend that authority. That's what happens in debates. I don't use that argument too much myself because there's plenty of logic, evidence and evidence to the contrary of the opposing view to support my points.
> 
> Unless someone is calling you bad names or attacking your character or questioning your personal ethics, it's NOT personal. Pointing out that you don't have bonafides, facts or evidence (in general you btw) is not an attack. Often people say it's personal because they can't handle the push back on something they personally believe in.


I was simply stating my opinion that these boards have a definite slant one way, not "playing the victim card." I also found the Karen's Cat "fallacy" ridiculous. To judge an entire movement by one person's one questionable decision is frankly laughable.


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## glowingtoadfly

Right, I get that some positive trainers paint all correction trainers with a broad brush and try to take these tools from everyone, even those like David Winners, and Gwen. I get how infuriating that is. The Karen's Cat thing seemed to be approaching the same level of judgemental-ness.


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## Gwenhwyfair

The heck you aren't playing the victim card "brow beaten" really, exaggerate much when you don't have anything of substance to stand on??

Now you're accusing "me" of being ridiculous and judgmental after complaining about people being 'personal' towards you? 

You also drag people into your posts (merciel bjorn) and speak for them? That's really poor form. Both adults who can speak for themselves if they so choose.

Your inability to accept a premise that many PO people out there would give up on a dog, especially a dog with aggression issues and euth it, rather then try using prong or ecollar is not laughable in my book. 

If anything YOU are the one making this very personal and going way off topic as well. 



glowingtoadfly said:


> I was simply stating my opinion that these boards have a definite slant one way, not "playing the victim card." I also found the Karen's Cat "fallacy" ridiculous. To judge an entire movement by one person's one questionable decision is frankly laughable.


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## Gwenhwyfair

David Winners too? 

No one is painting with a broad brush. Once again you're exaggerating to try and reinforce or validate your incorrect perceptions.

Further it wasn't just David and myself that agreed with the content of the last few threads on this topic. Think of all the people who, in the last three threads or so have fundamentally agreed with David Winners and myself........that's an awful lot of people painting with a broad brush and brow beating. 



glowingtoadfly said:


> Right, I get that some positive trainers paint all correction trainers with a broad brush and try to take these tools from everyone, even those like David Winners, and Gwen. I get how infuriating that is. The Karen's Cat thing seemed to be approaching the same level of judgemental-ness.


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## glowingtoadfly

Gwenhwyfair said:


> The heck you aren't playing the victim card "brow beaten" really, exaggerate much when you don't have anything of substance to stand on??
> 
> Now you're accusing "me" of being ridiculous and judgmental after complaining about people being 'personal' towards you?
> 
> You also drag people into your posts (merciel bjorn) and speak for them? That's really poor form. Both adults who can speak for themselves if they so choose.
> 
> Your inability to accept a premise that many PO people out there would give up on a dog, especially a dog with aggression issues and euth it, rather then try using prong or ecollar is not laughable in my book.
> 
> If anything YOU are the one making this very personal and going way off topic as well.


I was simply replying to the post questioning where all the positive trainers who don't use prong collars are in this one sided discussion. Your reply simply proves my point as you are currently attempting to browbeat me lol. Sure, some PO people out there might give up on a dog, just like some correction trainers hurt their dogs and scar them. I never refused to accept either premise and to say that I did is browbeating, plain and simple. That's not playing the victim card.


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## David Winners

###KEEP PERSONAL COMMENTS IN PRIVATE###



David Winners


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## Gwenhwyfair

You're simply being way too emotional and taking this all way too personally. .

That's what is 'simply' going on here.

You CANNOT come on here and say it's "personal" it's "browbeating" and then try to say you're not playing the 'victim card' It's right there in black and white In your posts.

Now if you've got something of substance about the topic by all means share it, but this accusing everyone of being mean, brow beating or personally picking on you is only going to get us moderated.



glowingtoadfly said:


> I was simply replying to the post questioning where all the positive trainers who don't use prong collars are in this one sided discussion. Your reply simply proves my point as you are currently attempting to browbeat me lol. Sure, some PO people out there might give up on a dog, just like some correction trainers hurt their dogs and scar them. I never refused to accept either premise and to say that I did is browbeating, plain and simple. That's not playing the victim card.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

David, I do *not* want any personal contact from GTF. I would rather this thread stay on topic and not about 'brow beating' and what not.



David Winners said:


> ###KEEP PERSONAL COMMENTS IN PRIVATE###
> 
> 
> 
> David Winners


----------



## glowingtoadfly

My only comment is that I am following this thread with interest and merely called in some other people who have supported positive training in other threads. It's nice to hear both sides of an argument rather than see a thread devolve into a one sided debate.


----------



## lhczth

Gwen, you could block her and then you won't see her posts or you can just ignore her. Takes two to argue. 

ADMIN Lisa


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

I hear ya....but good grief...Ignore it is!!



lhczth said:


> Gwen, you could block her and then you won't see her posts or *you can just ignore her.* Takes two to argue.
> 
> ADMIN Lisa


----------



## glowingtoadfly

I would also prefer that the thread stay on topic, with balanced views from both sides.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Gwenhwyfair said:


> *most * personal remarks edited
> 
> Your inability to accept a premise that many PO people out there would give up on a dog, especially a dog with aggression issues and euth it, rather then try using prong or ecollar is not laughable in my book.


I am currently a member of a PO fearful dogs facebook group that is many members strong. *NONE* of them are interested in euthanizing their dogs and *NONE* of them use prongs or ecollars or aversives on their dogs.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

glowingtoadfly said:


> I am currently a member of a PO fearful dogs facebook group that is many members strong. *NONE* of them are interested in euthanizing their dogs and *NONE* of them use prongs or ecollars or aversives on their dogs.


What does that prove? Plenty of people live with fearful / behavioral messes. Plenty are happy with little to no progression because they cant comprehend anything else. 
They make great clients for many trainers and behaviorists that love to make excuses for their failures and take people's money. 
I have used E Collars on fearful / soft dogs and on harder dogs. Have you?


----------



## David Winners

Hopefully watching these videos can exhibit that prongs and e-collars are not about more correction. That seems stuck in the mind of some. I have explained it several times, as have others, but some people don't want to learn.
















If you choose to train all positive, I don't go around saying you are abusive or are going to mess your dog up. I let you train and succeed or fail.

I expect the same respect from other trainers, especially when they don't have a clue about the training going on, and don't care to discuss it. They just have a picture in their head that is wrong.

It's sad.


----------



## David Winners

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> What does that prove? Plenty of people live with fearful / behavioral messes. Plenty are happy with little to no progression because they cant comprehend anything else.
> They make great clients for many trainers and behaviorists that love to make excuses for their failures and take people's money.
> I have used E Collars on fearful / soft dogs and on harder dogs. Have you?


They (PO people) haven't used an e-collar at all. They believe it is akin to getting shocked off an outlet or an electric fence. Generally, their opinions and theories have absolutely no grounds in science or fact.

In person, I put the e-collar on them and train them to do something. It's amazing how the lightbulb goes on LOL. Pair it with markers and rewards and you have a super fast, very effective training method. Sounds like torture huh


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Funny thing is most trainers on here including myself, use markers/clickers as their foundation for training and thus understand the positive system.
We just take things a step farther and layer over the positive foundation with some pressure to create reliability and clarity.

Ahem...operant conditioning...

Were it all falls apart is many force free types dont have a clue about pressure in training and the various benifits it offers a training system.

Then they get all bent out of shape about tools that allow the user to refine and tailor the application of pressure to create less stress, clear communication and results in a reasonable timeframe.

This is the ignorance that creates stupid bans and misinformation that they feed to the ignorant and unwary at training facilities, on TV and yes at many Humane Societies . 
There is nothing wrong with people making certain choices in their training. Just so long as it doesnt affect me or anyone else.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

David Winners said:


> They (PO people) haven't used an e-collar at all. They believe it is akin to getting shocked off an outlet or an electric fence. Generally, their opinions and theories have absolutely no grounds in science or fact.
> 
> In person, I put the e-collar on them and train them to do something. It's amazing how the lightbulb goes on LOL. Pair it with markers and rewards and you have a super fast, very effective training method. Sounds like torture huh


So true how else can you get the basic timing and theory right if you dont have the clients use it on themselves? Then I test their timing by having them use it on me in conjunction with a long line.

I find the clients also feel more comfortable with the collar after they have used it on themselves. It tends to dispel all those high voltage myths...


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> What does that prove? Plenty of people live with fearful / behavioral messes. Plenty are happy with little to no progression because they cant comprehend anything else.
> They make great clients for many trainers and behaviorists that love to make excuses for their failures and take people's money.
> I have used E Collars on fearful / soft dogs and on harder dogs. Have you?


No, I haven't been able to get beyond the "shock value" of ecollars and prongs for my two lol, and neither has my husband. I am always interested in learning more though, and appreciate the videos/education/studies. I've had to develop a bit of a thick skin from taking my dogs to schutzhund definitely. I will walk by a woman who is correction training her dog on a prong for reactivity while I am holding treats to Grim's nose while he is on a freedom harness for the same thing. It is always good to hear other viewpoints. I think the fearful dogs group proves that there are people out there journaling their dogs' progress and working through issues without aversives. Just as there are people responsibly using aversives. It is a very personal choice.


----------



## DaniFani

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> So true how else can you get the basic timing and theory right if you dont have the clients use it on themselves? Then I test their timing by having them use it on me in conjunction with a long line.
> 
> I find the clients also feel more comfortable with the collar after they have used it on themselves. It tends to dispel all those high voltage myths...


Haha, TD slapped an ecollar on a handler who wasn't timing rewards right, to show him when to reward. Worked great, ;-)


----------



## DaniFani

glowingtoadfly said:


> No, I haven't been able to get beyond the "shock value" of ecollars and prongs for my two lol, and neither has my husband. I am always interested in learning more though, and appreciate the videos/education/studies. I've had to develop a bit of a thick skin from taking my dogs to schutzhund definitely. I will walk by a woman who is correction training her dog on a prong for reactivity while I am holding treats to Grim's nose while he is on a freedom harness for the same thing. It is always good to hear other viewpoints.* I think the fearful dogs group proves that there are people out there journaling their dogs' progress and working through issues without aversives.* Just as there are people responsibly using aversives. It is a very personal choice.


GTF,

I don't understand, what does "journaling" prove?

Have you come across any studies using aversive free methods, showing 100% success of reactive dogs? I'm not talking about dog's on a "journey" or a "path"...I'm talking dogs that were 100% *fixed*. I don't know if you read the study, but the dogs were 100% rehabbed (and stress was measured LOWEST in the dogs WITH ecollars...blowing the "ecollars cause stress" argument completely out of the water). ALL of them became non-reactive (along with the dogs that Lou Castle worked himself). This thread, and the other, is a discussion on the achievement of 100% success of reactive dogs using ecollar methods. Not about aversive free methods.

Please, start another thread like this with a *study* showing 100% success of reactive dogs using aversive free methods. I am sure that all trainers and handlers you decided to mention would be happy to have a discussion. Did you ever consider they may not be adding anything to this thread because they don't use ecollars, so they have nothing to add? 

Maybe they don't want to argue about something they have no experience or interest in. I don't understand why it always has to be aversive vs AF with you. You always have to come comment on training you aren't even doing....train however you want to train. This thread is about a method being 100% successful, you don't get better than 100%. If you want to turn it into ecollar/prong vs AF, then please provide a study showing the same results, using the methods you support.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Actually it proves that there is a group of people on facebook..nothing more.. 

I have started free shaping the DB retrieve. Its all very force free and I feel so good about myself. 
Ofcourse the dog doesnt eat if she doesnt hold the db..lol.

Is it really any better then training the dog to hold the DB with an E Collar? Maybe yes for some dogs maybe no for others. 

Fyi: Luring and baiting a dog with its nose shoved into a treat is not really achieving the same thing as prong pressure to maintain the heel position.
I have video of me luring a 12 week old pup into focussed heels and straight fronts. She didnt actually know how to do those things. That was just muscle memory stuff that I had to layer over with markers and later compulsion to achieve precision. That work is still not done. 

On the other hand I trained her to heel nicely in much less time with just prong pressure. Makes walking her off leash a breeze. 

Totally different things.


----------



## Blanketback

glowingtoadfly said:


> It's nice to hear both sides of an argument rather than see a thread devolve into a one sided debate.


There is no argument in this thread. I started it because I was googling other items of interest that I found by sifting through the dogsey drivel. 

"The current literature on the use of aversives (especially electronic ones) in dog training shows a striking lack of articles that present results that call popular ideas favoring positive reinforcement only dog training into question."
See no evil. Read no evil. Cite no evil. | Smartdogs' Weblog

I do not believe that it's in the best interest of the dog to be taught without aversives. I truly believe that a dog will learn more, and have a better understanding, when it knows right from wrong, not learn 'better is best' which is how I view PO training.

GTF, let's not talk about dog training for a minute. Let's talk about cooking, and use peppers as an example. Say you like bell peppers, I like jalapeno peppers, and Blitz likes habanero peppers. If you don't like hot peppers, then you won't like the jalapenos or the habaneros. I find the red bell peppers too sweet, and the habaneros way too hot. Blitz might only ever eat habaneros or scotch bonnets, because he finds the other varieties bland. There is no debate here, we like what we like. I might want a recipe using the habaneros, since I like hot food. I'm willing to try it, at least. 

For the record, I've trained mostly with +R too. But there are times when aversives suit me more. For example, teaching not to door dash. I don't want my dog in a sit, I don't want him on a leash, and I don't want him outside. How to train that? Simple when the dog makes a move to the door, close the door. It takes hardly any time for the dog to realize that if they want the door open, not to move towards it. That doesn't mean I'm slamming the door on my dog's muzzle, BTW.


----------



## Sri

I'm curious if anyone has tried the ecollar around their neck? I remember when someone introduced the prong to me by having me put it around my forearm and yanking it I felt nothing. I put it around my neck and **** did it hurt! When I mentioned that it hurt, they said 'well dogs have a lot of hair around their neck so it doesnt hurt *them*."I do use the prong on the dog, ofcourse, but I try to minimise by training positively as much as possible. 

Not criticising any methods, just wondering if anyone has tried the ecollar around their neck?


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Actually dogs are more sensitive in and around their flanks and bellies.

When you watch dogs even just playing they often bite each other around the neck but they rarily go for their flanks or belly. Mother nature has given most breeds protection of extra skin and fur around the neck area.

So I don't think it's comparable to compare the sensations unless you were also to duplicate the relative insulation of the fur, skin and other tissues that dogs have around their neck that we don't.




Sri said:


> I'm curious if anyone has tried the ecollar around their neck? I remember when someone introduced the prong to me by having me put it around my forearm and yanking it I felt nothing. I put it around my neck and **** did it hurt! When I mentioned that it hurt, they said 'well dogs have a lot of hair around their neck so it doesnt hurt *them*."I do use the prong on the dog, ofcourse, but I try to minimise by training positively as much as possible.
> 
> Not criticising any methods, just wondering if anyone has tried the ecollar around their neck?


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:




DaniFani said:


> GTF,
> 
> I don't understand, what does "journaling" prove?
> 
> Have you come across any studies using aversive free methods, showing 100% success of reactive dogs? I'm not talking about dog's on a "journey" or a "path"...I'm talking dogs that were 100% *fixed*. I don't know if you read the study, but the dogs were 100% rehabbed (and stress was measured LOWEST in the dogs WITH ecollars...blowing the "ecollars cause stress" argument completely out of the water). ALL of them became non-reactive (along with the dogs that Lou Castle worked himself). This thread, and the other, is a discussion on the achievement of 100% success of reactive dogs using ecollar methods. Not about aversive free methods.
> 
> Please, start another thread like this with a *study* showing 100% success of reactive dogs using aversive free methods. I am sure that all trainers and handlers you decided to mention would be happy to have a discussion. Did you ever consider they may not be adding anything to this thread because they don't use ecollars, so they have nothing to add?
> 
> Maybe they don't want to argue about something they have no experience or interest in. I don't understand why it always has to be aversive vs AF with you. You always have to come comment on training you aren't even doing....train however you want to train. This thread is about a method being 100% successful, you don't get better than 100%. If you want to turn it into ecollar/prong vs AF, then please provide a study showing the same results, using the methods you support.


----------



## David Winners

Sri said:


> I'm curious if anyone has tried the ecollar around their neck? I remember when someone introduced the prong to me by having me put it around my forearm and yanking it I felt nothing. I put it around my neck and **** did it hurt! When I mentioned that it hurt, they said 'well dogs have a lot of hair around their neck so it doesnt hurt *them*."I do use the prong on the dog, ofcourse, but I try to minimise by training positively as much as possible.
> 
> Not criticising any methods, just wondering if anyone has tried the ecollar around their neck?


I won't train someone to use an e-collar until they wear one on their neck, we find their working level, and I demonstrate how to teach the recall.

Then I put the collar on and have them go through the process.

This helps in timing, understanding, and people seem to be less likely to get crazy on the dial with me than their dog. Understanding the process is most of the battle IMHO.

David Winners


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

....yup.

Facebook is a self reinforcing thing as well. People get into groups to validate each other *not* to challenge. So it's going to have a LOT of bias just as groups who may be on the other side of the extreme.

Just like the UK dog forum, I was reading a few pages of the thread blanketback shared and on the first page a regular member there asked that discussions about the prong/ecollar not even be allowed to begin with. They don't want their beliefs to be challenged, even if the challenges are founded on factual, supportable and repeatable information.

Further, often people give up on dogs due to what really are minor training issues all the time. I'm a member on some local pet groups on FB and every day, I mean every day, someone is posting that they need to get rid of their 'baby'. Most of the time it's due to the dog jumping, or taking food out of the toddlers hand, or jumping the fence. Invariably they all say 'we tried to train him but he can't be fixed'. Granted they are trying to rehome and not euth the dog but the trend is still there. This trend is supported by all the dogs being euth'd in this country every day, so it's not just a facebook thing in this case. 

A good many of these dogs probably would make fine pets if the people involved would find effective methods (which may or may not include ecollars) and actually work on it. Further people who do just dump the dog back in the shelter aren't going to admit it's because they couldn't (or wouldn't) train the dog. They'll often make excuses rather then admit they failed the dog. (<this btw is why I don't spend a lot of time on facebook, it's too depressing and disheartening to see dog after dog being given up on so quickly)

This is human nature 101.




Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Actually it proves that there is a group of people on facebook..nothing more..
> 
> I have started free shaping the DB retrieve. Its all very force free and I feel so good about myself.
> Ofcourse the dog doesnt eat if she doesnt hold the db..lol.
> 
> Is it really any better then training the dog to hold the DB with an E Collar? Maybe yes for some dogs maybe no for others.
> 
> Fyi: Luring and baiting a dog with its nose shoved into a treat is not really achieving the same thing as prong pressure to maintain the heel position.
> I have video of me luring a 12 week old pup into focussed heels and straight fronts. She didnt actually know how to do those things. That was just muscle memory stuff that I had to layer over with markers and later compulsion to achieve precision. That work is still not done.
> 
> On the other hand I trained her to heel nicely in much less time with just prong pressure. Makes walking her off leash a breeze.
> 
> Totally different things.


----------



## onyx'girl




----------



## Gwenhwyfair

In your experience do you find the human working level to be lower then the average dog?

I didn't think about the fact that you can adjust levels on the collars when I responded to Sri originally.




David Winners said:


> I won't train someone to use an e-collar until they wear one on their neck, we find their working level, and I demonstrate how to teach the recall.
> 
> Then I put the collar on and have them go through the process.
> 
> This helps in timing, understanding, and people seem to be less likely to get crazy on the dial with me than their dog. Understanding the process is most of the battle IMHO.
> 
> David Winners


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

:spittingcoffee:


@ Jane! LOL! 

I'm going to share that one with a few friends.....


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Blanketback said:


> There is no argument in this thread. I started it because I was googling other items of interest that I found by sifting through the dogsey drivel.
> 
> "The current literature on the use of aversives (especially electronic ones) in dog training shows a striking lack of articles that present results that call popular ideas favoring positive reinforcement only dog training into question."
> See no evil. Read no evil. Cite no evil. | Smartdogs' Weblog
> 
> I do not believe that it's in the best interest of the dog to be taught without aversives. I truly believe that a dog will learn more, and have a better understanding, when it knows right from wrong, not learn 'better is best' which is how I view PO training.
> 
> GTF, let's not talk about dog training for a minute. Let's talk about cooking, and use peppers as an example. Say you like bell peppers, I like jalapeno peppers, and Blitz likes habanero peppers. If you don't like hot peppers, then you won't like the jalapenos or the habaneros. I find the red bell peppers too sweet, and the habaneros way too hot. Blitz might only ever eat habaneros or scotch bonnets, because he finds the other varieties bland. There is no debate here, we like what we like. I might want a recipe using the habaneros, since I like hot food. I'm willing to try it, at least.
> 
> For the record, I've trained mostly with +R too. But there are times when aversives suit me more. For example, teaching not to door dash. I don't want my dog in a sit, I don't want him on a leash, and I don't want him outside. How to train that? Simple when the dog makes a move to the door, close the door. It takes hardly any time for the dog to realize that if they want the door open, not to move towards it. That doesn't mean I'm slamming the door on my dog's muzzle, BTW.


Actually, I am interested in the article because my dog shows signs of avoidance aggression sometimes.


----------



## David Winners

Gwenhwyfair said:


> In your experience do you find the human working level to be lower then the average dog?
> 
> I didn't think about the fact that you can adjust levels on the collars when I responded to Sri originally.


Humans are worked at a lower level than most the dogs I have worked, but people are different and so are dogs. 

I take a much higher working level than either of my dogs LOL. Me brain ain't quite right er sumthin.


----------



## Blanketback

And well you should be interested. It's foolish to assume that a dog can be trained by how we _think_ that they _would_ learn, unless we have an extensive background in training them. It would be like me saying I can learn another language by eating chocolate. Hey, I still can't understand - I'll just eat more chocolate!


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

LOL!!  

Same with dogs my trainer who uses e collars said it's very variable what working level individual dogs respond to, even among the malis and GSDs he works in IPO.





David Winners said:


> Humans are worked at a lower level than most the dogs I have worked, but people are different and so are dogs.
> 
> I take a much higher working level than either of my dogs LOL. Me brain ain't quite right er sumthin.


----------



## carmspack

quote "Actually, I am interested in the article because my dog shows signs of avoidance aggression sometimes"

isn't this more a sign of having met a threshold so a temperamental issue or a situational issue ?


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Could be. The dogs in the article had handling issues... That is why it is so interesting.


----------



## David Winners

Gwenhwyfair said:


> LOL!!
> 
> Same with dogs my trainer who uses e collars said it's very variable what working level individual dogs respond to, even among the malis and GSDs he works in IPO.


The same dog will have a different working level in any number of situations.


----------



## Blanketback

GTF, it's really easy to teach a dog to show aggressive behaviors. Say for nails: if the dog make a move and you stop clipping, you've taught your dog that this works. This can escalate over time, and the dog will use this behavior to its advantage, in other situations.


----------



## carmspack

true Blanketback.

I was thinking more along the line of glowingtoads dogs from former posts where she walks them in the woods , or in an urban location and the dog has had enough and then grips her arm .


----------



## Blanketback

Yes, I remember the arm gripping. I think that might be a thing of the past now, since GTF is involved with martemchik's training group? It wouldn't be a difficult issue to resolve, or it shouldn't be.


----------



## DaniFani

Blanketback said:


> There is no argument in this thread. I started it because I was googling other items of interest that I found by sifting through the dogsey drivel.
> 
> "The current literature on the use of aversives (especially electronic ones) in dog training shows a striking lack of articles that present results that call popular ideas favoring positive reinforcement only dog training into question."
> See no evil. Read no evil. Cite no evil. | Smartdogs' Weblog
> 
> *I do not believe that it's in the best interest of the dog to be taught without aversives. I truly believe that a dog will learn more, and have a better understanding, when it knows right from wrong, not learn 'better is best' which is how I view PO training.*
> 
> GTF, let's not talk about dog training for a minute. Let's talk about cooking, and use peppers as an example. Say you like bell peppers, I like jalapeno peppers, and Blitz likes habanero peppers. If you don't like hot peppers, then you won't like the jalapenos or the habaneros. I find the red bell peppers too sweet, and the habaneros way too hot. Blitz might only ever eat habaneros or scotch bonnets, because he finds the other varieties bland. There is no debate here, we like what we like. I might want a recipe using the habaneros, since I like hot food. I'm willing to try it, at least.
> 
> For the record, I've trained mostly with +R too. But there are times when aversives suit me more. For example, teaching not to door dash. I don't want my dog in a sit, I don't want him on a leash, and I don't want him outside. How to train that? Simple when the dog makes a move to the door, close the door. It takes hardly any time for the dog to realize that if they want the door open, not to move towards it. That doesn't mean I'm slamming the door on my dog's muzzle, BTW.


I agree with the part in bold. I want to be able to show the dog what I don't want as much as what I do. The dog's I've seen trained this way seem to understand more clearly what's going on, seem more enthusiastic about it, and it's FAST. I'd go even a step further and say it seems more...gasp...*fun* for the dog. We aren't stuck doing the same thing over and over and over again, we get to make progress faster, and our relationship seems to grow through the clarity.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Blanketback said:


> Yes, I remember the arm gripping. I think that might be a thing of the past now, since GTF is involved with martemchik's training group? It wouldn't be a difficult issue to resolve, or it shouldn't be.


She hasn't mouthed since Grim came home in February and then we started training. She also likes hikes more with another dog along. Playing intense schutzhund style obedience tug has really given her an outlet. She also recently did great at the vet. Her growly nipping has been decreasing as well. Maybe, like the dogs in the study, training is doing her good.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Blanketback said:


> GTF, it's really easy to teach a dog to show aggressive behaviors. Say for nails: if the dog make a move and you stop clipping, you've taught your dog that this works. This can escalate over time, and the dog will use this behavior to its advantage, in other situations.


She is the kind of dog who will test your nerve on these kinds of things..


----------



## Merciel

Oh hey I just saw that I got namedropped in this thread.

So to just hit one point real quick: the reason I don't get involved in these arguments anymore is because _I don't care_. I don't even open e-collar or prong threads anymore because what would be the point? What am I going to add to that discussion?

I'll train my dogs how I want, everybody else can train their dogs the way they want, and we can all go on with our lives (and dogs) instead of getting frustrated with pointless arguments on the Internet.

(also I'm currently going through another one of my periodic "holy crap I don't know anything about anything" self-doubt phases, so there's that too)


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

You're a celeb! 

In blue and I totally respect that sentiment, especially on your part because despite your self doubt phases it's clear that you get results with your dogs!

The problem is when people try to force the issue by trying to ban ecollars/prongs.

That's when push back is necessary, unfortunately. 



Merciel said:


> Oh hey I just saw that I got namedropped in this thread.
> 
> So to just hit one point real quick: the reason I don't get involved in these arguments anymore is because _I don't care_. I don't even open e-collar or prong threads anymore because what would be the point? What am I going to add to that discussion?
> 
> *I'll train my dogs how I want, everybody else can train their dogs the way they want, and we can all go on with our lives (and dogs)* instead of getting frustrated with pointless arguments on the Internet.
> 
> (also I'm currently going through another one of my periodic "holy crap I don't know anything about anything" self-doubt phases, so there's that too)


----------



## GatorDog

All I have to say is that I have used positive training methods in combination with different types of aversives such as prong collars and electric collars and my dog is happy as a clam with some seriously butt kicking obedience and (IMO) relatively impressive and highly controlled protection and tracking. So yeah.


----------



## zyppi

not a pro, but have had many dogs (and many children.)

They have only one thing in common - no two are alike and there is no 'one size fits all.'

I do not believe there is a magic formula.

Overly harsh treatment will harm all and an overly permissive approach will usually give less than glowing results.

Learn your charge and apply temperament appropriate discipline. If you don't know why you can't get the desired behavior, be willing to learn... no matter how old or experienced you think you are.


----------



## GatorDog

Merciel said:


> Oh hey I just saw that I got namedropped in this thread.
> 
> So to just hit one point real quick: the reason I don't get involved in these arguments anymore is because _I don't care_. I don't even open e-collar or prong threads anymore because what would be the point? What am I going to add to that discussion?
> 
> *I'll train my dogs how I want, everybody else can train their dogs the way they want, and we can all go on with our lives (and dogs) instead of getting frustrated with pointless arguments on the Internet.*
> 
> (also I'm currently going through another one of my periodic "holy crap I don't know anything about anything" self-doubt phases, so there's that too)


Love this. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## Merciel

HA I saw that just as I was about to approvingly quote _your_ post! 

Anyway you know I love Carma (and the little brown dog too, of course, but Carma's the one where I am dead set on stalking any future puppy plans...) and I love watching you work with your super awesome team.

Good training is good training. I think there is enough overlap in what most of us are doing with our dogs that we can learn a lot from each other. Might not be the same sport, might not be entirely the same methods, but in my opinion we'd all be better served by trying to learn what we can from the commonalities.

So at this point in my life that is mainly what I am trying to get from this board, and the posters whose contributions I value the most are the ones who are sharing what works for them and why, instead of spending their time trying to tear down other people's methods.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

No one is trying to ban AF though.

That's what stirs up the most arguments, when AF folks try to justify the bans they want.

I'd say in bite sports AF folks will run into pressure to use tools/methods they don't want to.....but that's still not equivalent to the groups who are, in an organized fashion, trying to ban prongs and ecollars.

Then it's serious and not just about folks arguing on the net.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Dog aggression may be caused by owners, new study finds
Study about confrontative techniques causing aggression.
Study indicates that confrontational or punishment-based dog training linked to aggression and other behavior problems in canines


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## glowingtoadfly

Ben: An Aggressive Dog Case Study | Karen Pryor Clicker Training
Case study of dog treated first with prong, then clicker for prong-caused problems.


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## glowingtoadfly

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...hods/412066-banned-e-collar-prong-collar.html


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## Blitzkrieg1

Oh god where to start.

You realize that you are not supposed to actually hang a dog with a prong right? 
-Prong used incorrectly to HANG the dog
-Stranger applying strong punishment to the dog while its over threshold
-Prong being used on a dog that does not understand how to turn the pressure off
-Sensitive nervy dog
-Owner freaking out

Etc etc etc. The dog could have just as easily been fixed by a trainer using a complete operant conditioning training system.

The other articles are typical one sided opinion pieces based on anecdotal / hearsay evidence. You can also tell were the writers biases are when you read comments like "CONFRONTATIONAL Training Techniques".

Those are not actual studies following the rules of science.


So in the end what have you proved? That reading stuff on the internet as opposed to actually doing it leads to grasping at straws to support personal ethos. Ethos that is based on personal wishes and dreams as opposed to reality.

The article being discussed in this thread is based on a SCIENTIFIC study. Not some random opinions and a story written by someone who had no clue how to train.


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## Blitzkrieg1

This article should help with your understanding.

B.F. Skinner | Operant Conditioning | Simply Psychology


If I posted an article about a trainer who threw a clicker at a dogs head and made them defecate on themselves what would that tell you?


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## glowingtoadfly

University of Pennsylvania veterinary researchers did the study on confrontative techniques, actually. Emma Parsons may not have known what was going to happen when she started out with Ben and took him to that trainer. She did rehabilitate him from his aggression using clicker training with Karen Pryor's help and write a widely cited book about the process, Click to Calm. I think she knows how to train if she rehabilitated her dog aggressive dog to the point where he could be around other dogs without reacting using a clicker. I will read that link-thanks!


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## Blitzkrieg1

glowingtoadfly said:


> University of Pennsylvania veterinary researchers did the study on confrontative techniques, actually. Emma Parsons may not have known what was going to happen when she started out with Ben and took him to that trainer. She did rehabilitate him from his aggression using clicker training with Karen Pryor's help and write a widely cited book about the process, Click to Calm. I think she knows how to train if she rehabilitated her dog aggressive dog to the point where he could be around other dogs without reacting using a clicker. I will read that link-thanks!


 
No they used anecdotal evidence, they did not research how the punishment was applied to the dogs, the dogs foundation training, the qualifications of those applying the punishment / reward etc etc. If you understand the rules of science you can see were it all falls apart. 

As for Parsons fixing what was a minor DA issue does not a trainer make. Sorry.


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## glowingtoadfly

... He lunged, bared his teeth, and screamed, as gobs and gobs of saliva flew from his mouth... That sounds like a major DA issue to me.
The study asked how the owners previously treated their dogs' aggression and where/how they trained, and about the dogs' response. Just read the BF Skinner article, it was a nice psych refresher course.


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## David Winners

Dog aggression may be caused by owners, new study finds


> Herron said it was interesting that several confrontational methods, such as the “*alpha roll*” and *hitting or yelling "no"* at their dogs, elicited an aggressive response in more than a quarter of the dogs, according to the pet owners that were surveyed.
> 
> The alpha roll is a training technique in which the dog flips over on its back and is held in that position, usually by the throat. This has been traditionally thought to teach the dog that the trainer is the pack leader, or “alpha dog.” Herron said this aggressive technique, along with *growling at the dog*, *staring down the dog* or forcing the release of an item in a dog's mouth by putting pressure on their gums with fingers are more likely to have the adverse effect them, or may not even help them at all.
> 
> Most of these confrontational or punishment-based methods are *fear-eliciting*, and the primary motivating factor for dog aggression to humans is fear, Herron said.


Are you seriously comparing these techniques with well applied training? This article has nothing to do with proper training techniques using prong and e-collars at all. It's irrelevant. If you beat a dog with a clicker everyday it's going to become aggressive. It's not the tools but the methods used. 


Ben: An Aggressive Dog Case Study


> I would rather euthanize Ben than treat him in such an abusive manner.


Karon Pryor euthanized her own cat because she couldn't train it to not urinate on her stove and counters. Better dead than have aversive training applied.


Show me aggression and fear escalating in this video. This dog has had poor prong collar training before, but there is more than one way to utilize a tool.





Here is an article from Tyler on AF trainers.
A Silent Killer


----------



## glowingtoadfly

David Winners said:


> Dog aggression may be caused by owners, new study finds
> 
> 
> Are you seriously comparing these techniques with well applied training? This article has nothing to do with proper training techniques using prong and e-collars at all. It's irrelevant. If you beat a dog with a clicker everyday it's going to become aggressive. It's not the tools but the methods used.
> 
> 
> Ben: An Aggressive Dog Case Study
> 
> 
> Karon Pryor euthanized her own cat because she couldn't train it to not urinate on her stove and counters. Better dead than have aversive training applied.
> 
> 
> Show me aggression and fear escalating in this video. This dog has had poor prong collar training before, but there is more than one way to utilize a tool.
> Starting A Dog On A Prong Collar With Conversational Leash Work | Tyler Muto Dogmanship - YouTube
> 
> Here is an article from Tyler on AF trainers.
> A Silent Killer


Here is a youtube video of a clicker trainer, Kikopup, teaching loose leash walking with a clicker. 



What I love about this video is how engaged the dog is, feeling no need to resist against a collar. The dog is reinforced for staying close to the handler. There is no chance of a tool being misused, because there is no aversive tool. What an adorable little pitbull that was in the video you posted. He certainly seems to be with an experienced trainer. I would do his training more Kikopup's way, but that's me. I don't feel it is my place to take these tools from others.
I am not comparing prongs and ecollars to hitting and alpha rolling, except in the case of Emma Parsons' dog Ben, which I cited before, and cases like this do happen often. In any discussion of these tools, I feel cases of their misuse should be cited because people have to know that, like guns, these tools have their risks. Its always the dog who suffers.
Not all AF trainers would rather euthanize a dog than see it in the hands of a trainer like the one you posted in the video. I certainly wouldn't. I was at the point of giving my dog back for mouthing last fall, sick of being bruised every third time I took her out to go to the bathroom snd also whenever she felt anxious. I chose Prozac for her, and time, and more positive training, and management. Now, she has her days, especially with resource guarding, but she is improving and hasn't mouthed in a few months. Dogs with issues like my dog had are euthanized in shelters every day. Would I rather see her in a prong or ecollar than euthanized? Definitely. I think in the article, Emma Parsons was simply making a personal statement about where she personally stands with her own dog, as far as stringing him up. Just as Karen Pryor made a personal choice with her cat. Do these two ladies stand in a vulnerable place as figureheads of the AF movement, with their every word and action scrutinized on these boards? Certainly. Are all AF trainers like them? No. I also think I would rather not see my dog strung up like that, and would never place her in the hands of a trainer like Emma Parsons' dog.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

LOL. Didn't mean to state that Emma Parsons' dog was a yank and crank trainer. Sorry Ben.


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## Gwenhwyfair

David, Blitz I don't recall anyone saying *all* AF/PO trainers will opt to euth...when faced with a difficult dog, but this was a very long thread so maybe I missed it? Did either of you guys or Bailiff say that? I know I don't think that because there's so many different people on the spectrum of life.

David, scotch, neat? Me thinks y'ell be a needin' it.


----------



## gsdsar

glowingtoadfly said:


> I certainly wouldn't. I was at the point of giving my dog back for mouthing last fall, sick of being bruised every third time I took her out to go to the bathroom snd also whenever she felt anxious. I chose Prozac for her, and time, and more positive training, and management. Now, she has her days, especially with resource guarding, but she is improving and hasn't mouthed in a few months. Dogs with issues like my dog had are euthanized in shelters every day. Would I rather see her in a prong or ecollar than euthanized? Definitely.



I see and understand both sides of this argument. I fall in the middle. I prefer positive, but have no issue using corrections and prongs when called for. 

Can you please explain, honestly asking, why you though putting your dog on a drug that messes with brain chemistry was a better alternative to a quick and firm correction for mouthing? I think I would go to prong or ecollar before altering a dogs brain chemistry. That seems way more extreme to me. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## glowingtoadfly

It was her handling issues (growling when touched), anxiety on walks in the city/refusing to walk at all, and intense resource guarding that made us feel Prozac was the right choice. Under the supervision of an excellent behaviorist, of course. We plan to take her off the Prozac soon, as she is improving in all of these areas.


----------



## David Winners

Gwenhwyfair said:


> David, Blitz I don't recall anyone saying *all* AF/PO trainers will opt to euth...when faced with a difficult dog, but this was a very long thread so maybe I missed it? Did either of you guys or Bailiff say that? I know I don't think that because there's so many different people on the spectrum of life.
> 
> David, scotch, neat? Me thinks y'ell be a needin' it.


I, personally, would rather have Knob Creek, but a nice 12 year is definitely palatable. I just opened a Shock Top Honeycrisp Apple Wheat, and it's very refreshing.

I would never say *all* trainers do anything. I'd like to see someone point that out as well.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Gwenhwyfair said:


> David, Blitz I don't recall anyone saying *all* AF/PO trainers will opt to euth...when faced with a difficult dog, but this was a very long thread so maybe I missed it? Did either of you guys or Bailiff say that? I know I don't think that because there's so many different people on the spectrum of life.
> 
> David, scotch, neat? Me thinks y'ell be a needin' it.


I think it was stated in the article that David posted that dogs who do not respond quickly to AF training are euthanized more often now that positive only training has taken hold in many shelters. I just wonder if it is true or not. I can't say. It would make sense due to the scarcity of experienced foster homes to take on such dogs. The humane society in Milwaukee is always looking. I can't make any informed statements on whether experienced foster homes who use aversive tools are used any longer by AF humane societies. They should be, as long as they are properly educated on positive techniques too.


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## boomer11

glowingtoadfly said:


> It was her handling issues (growling when touched), anxiety on walks in the city/refusing to walk at all, and intense resource guarding that made us feel Prozac was the right choice. Under the supervision of an excellent behaviorist, of course. We plan to take her off the Prozac soon, as she is improving in all of these areas.


So you numbed your dog mentally so you could train her? Hahaha wow....


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Really because I've read that article several times and the author took pains to single out extremists only, such as here:



> *Aversive Free (AF) Training can be defined as training which involves only the R+ and P- quadrants of learning. When I refer to Aversive Free (AF) Trainers in this article, I am not referring to those who simply choose this approach for themselves, but I am referring to those who vehemently oppose the use of aversives for any dog in any situation.


 He is Referring to ONLY those who "vehemently oppose" the use of aversives, aka extremists. He repeats that sentiment again at the end of the article.

Now who has been saying "all". The people you accused of browbeating perhaps?





glowingtoadfly said:


> I think it was stated in the article that David posted that dogs who do not respond quickly to AF training are euthanized more often now that positive only training has taken hold in many shelters. I just wonder if it is true or not. I can't say. It would make sense due to the scarcity of experienced foster homes to take on such dogs. The humane society in Milwaukee is always looking. I can't make any informed statements on whether experienced foster homes who use aversive tools are used any longer by AF humane societies. They should be, as long as they are properly educated on positive techniques too.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

:thumbup:



David Winners said:


> I, personally, would rather have Knob Creek, but a nice 12 year is definitely palatable. I just opened a Shock Top Honeycrisp Apple Wheat, and it's very refreshing.
> 
> I would never say *all* trainers do anything. I'd like to see someone point that out as well.


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## carmspack

mmmm - so the dog is still on drugs ? "

Quote:
Originally Posted by *glowingtoadfly*  
_It was her handling issues (growling when touched), anxiety on walks in the city/refusing to walk at all, and intense resource guarding that made us feel Prozac was the right choice. Under the supervision of an excellent behaviorist, of course. We plan to take her off the Prozac soon, as she is improving in all of these areas._

So you numbed your dog mentally so you could train her? Hahaha wow.... "

that's not even fair to have this dropped as information here and now when there have been so many threads , with so many versions of the dog's state . Also, so many versions of what is contributing to success from a behaviourist , to singing to the dog, to being in schutzhund.


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## David Winners

glowingtoadfly said:


> Here is a youtube video of a clicker trainer, Kikopup, teaching loose leash walking with a clicker. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sFgtqgiAKoQ
> What I love about this video is how engaged the dog is, feeling no need to resist against a collar. The dog is reinforced for staying close to the handler. There is no chance of a tool being misused, because there is no aversive tool. What an adorable little pitbull that was in the video you posted. He certainly seems to be with an experienced trainer. I would do his training more Kikopup's way, but that's me. I don't feel it is my place to take these tools from others.
> I am not comparing prongs and ecollars to hitting and alpha rolling, except in the case of Emma Parsons' dog Ben, which I cited before, and cases like this do happen often. In any discussion of these tools, I feel cases of their misuse should be cited because people have to know that, like guns, these tools have their risks. Its always the dog who suffers.
> Not all AF trainers would rather euthanize a dog than see it in the hands of a trainer like the one you posted in the video. I certainly wouldn't. I was at the point of giving my dog back for mouthing last fall, sick of being bruised every third time I took her out to go to the bathroom snd also whenever she felt anxious. I chose Prozac for her, and time, and more positive training, and management. Now, she has her days, especially with resource guarding, but she is improving and hasn't mouthed in a few months. Dogs with issues like my dog had are euthanized in shelters every day. Would I rather see her in a prong or ecollar than euthanized? Definitely. I think in the article, Emma Parsons was simply making a personal statement about where she personally stands with her own dog, as far as stringing him up. Just as Karen Pryor made a personal choice with her cat. Do these two ladies stand in a vulnerable place as figureheads of the AF movement, with their every word and action scrutinized on these boards? Certainly. Are all AF trainers like them? No. I also think I would rather not see my dog strung up like that, and would never place her in the hands of a trainer like Emma Parsons' dog.


I'm a long time Kikopup subscriber. If you dig through my posts I have linked many clicker trainers clips as examples of outstanding training. You would probably giggle if you saw my YouTube subscription list. I know sometimes I do 

The difference is, I can objectively learn from a PO trainer and apply their techniques to my toolbox. An AF trainer simply shuns all mention of any type of learning that doesn't fit their skewed vision of operant conditioning. I choose to learn from Karen Pryor, but she wouldn't give me the time of day. I think that is a mistake and dogs pay for it with their lives.

Your dog is on meds, leaves bruises on you, has behavioral issues that remain unresolved and was at risk for being returned. All these things you have stated. You are having a lot of difficulty with your dog. That's OK, because it's your dog and your decision on how to train it or not. I'm not saying you are wrong in your approach. That's the difference. You can choose what methods to implement to work with your dog. AF people want to limit the possibilities of trainers based on bad science.

I work with these types of dogs all the time and have little trouble getting them to relax and follow my lead through life. Sometimes taking the decision making away from the dog frees it from the pressure of trying to decide how to deal with a situation.

IMHO, a week of stressful training is far easier on the dog than months of confusion and reactivity.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Really because I've read that article several times and the author took pains to single out extremists only, such as here:
> 
> 
> 
> He is Referring to ONLY those who "vehemently oppose" the use of aversives, aka extremists. He repeats that sentiment again at the end of the article.
> 
> Now who has been saying "all". The people you accused of browbeating perhaps?


LOL glad you decided to reply. I was merely replying and did not think about the implications of using "all".


----------



## glowingtoadfly

carmspack said:


> mmmm - so the dog is still on drugs ? "
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *glowingtoadfly*
> _It was her handling issues (growling when touched), anxiety on walks in the city/refusing to walk at all, and intense resource guarding that made us feel Prozac was the right choice. Under the supervision of an excellent behaviorist, of course. We plan to take her off the Prozac soon, as she is improving in all of these areas._
> 
> So you numbed your dog mentally so you could train her? Hahaha wow.... "
> 
> that's not even fair to have this dropped as information here and now when there have been so many threads , with so many versions of the dog's state . Also, so many versions of what is contributing to success from a behaviourist , to singing to the dog, to being in schutzhund.


I actually wrote in support of another forum user, like myself, who made this decision for her dog in a thread on Prozac very early on. Comments like Boomers were why I did not bring it up more often. She is a living being, complex, who has good days and bad days, and many good moments and bad moments, like you or I. And I try to have as many contributing factors to her successes as possible


----------



## glowingtoadfly

David Winners said:


> I'm a long time Kikopup subscriber. If you dig through my posts I have linked many clicker trainers clips as examples of outstanding training. You would probably giggle if you saw my YouTube subscription list. I know sometimes I do
> 
> The difference is, I can objectively learn from a PO trainer and apply their techniques to my toolbox. An AF trainer simply shuns all mention of any type of learning that doesn't fit their skewed vision of operant conditioning. I choose to learn from Karen Pryor, but she wouldn't give me the time of day. I think that is a mistake and dogs pay for it with their lives.
> 
> Your dog is on meds, leaves bruises on you, has behavioral issues that remain unresolved and was at risk for being returned. All these things you have stated. You are having a lot of difficulty with your dog. That's OK, because it's your dog and your decision on how to train it or not. I'm not saying you are wrong in your approach. That's the difference. You can choose what methods to implement to work with your dog. AF people want to limit the possibilities of trainers based on bad science.
> 
> I work with these types of dogs all the time and have little trouble getting them to relax and follow my lead through life. Sometimes taking the decision making away from the dog frees it from the pressure of trying to decide how to deal with a situation.
> 
> IMHO, a week of stressful training is far easier on the dog than months of confusion and reactivity.


Actually she hasn't bruised me in months, as I stated earler. She's been doing pretty well lately.  I do hope that more bridges can be built between the AF world and the prong crowd. It would make for more foster homes, I think. Why am I not surprised that you like Kikopup?


----------



## David Winners

I'm glad she's doing better!


----------



## DaniFani

David Winners said:


> I'm a long time Kikopup subscriber. If you dig through my posts I have linked many clicker trainers clips as examples of outstanding training. You would probably giggle if you saw my YouTube subscription list. I know sometimes I do
> 
> The difference is, I can objectively learn from a PO trainer and apply their techniques to my toolbox. An AF trainer simply shuns all mention of any type of learning that doesn't fit their skewed vision of operant conditioning. I choose to learn from Karen Pryor, but she wouldn't give me the time of day. I think that is a mistake and dogs pay for it with their lives.
> 
> *Your dog is on meds, leaves bruises on you, has behavioral issues that remain unresolved and was at risk for being returned. All these things you have stated. You are having a lot of difficulty with your dog. That's OK, because it's your dog and your decision on how to train it or not. I'm not saying you are wrong in your approach. That's the difference. You can choose what methods to implement to work with your dog. AF people want to limit the possibilities of trainers based on bad science.
> 
> I work with these types of dogs all the time and have little trouble getting them to relax and follow my lead through life. Sometimes taking the decision making away from the dog frees it from the pressure of trying to decide how to deal with a situation.
> 
> IMHO, a week of stressful training is far easier on the dog than months of confusion and reactivity*.


Well stated, Gwen has an excellent story of the "lightbulb" going off with her dog when she started utilizing the prong. So many people think prongs/ecollars cause so much stress. I've seen the opposite happen, dogs that were very confused and stressed, achieve clarity and freeness from balanced training. 

My TD just got the newest Einstein ecollar, she was using it for a dog at a level 10 (out of 100), it was neat to see how an EXTREMELY low level can have such an effect. It was so much "lower" compared to a correction on a flat collar...people just don't get that. It was like a tickle on your hand.

One of the things I really found interesting about this study is that the dog's stress levels were measured and the ones with ecollars were LESS stressed/stress free, compared to the ones without.

GTF, you stated that you'd rather see your dog on a prong/ecollar before euthanasia, admitted that the tools are effective in the right hands, etc.... This study is arguing that your female could be 100% fixed of her reactivity and other issues with the help of an experienced trainer utilizing an ecollar. Why not do that? Why is prozac (with admitted "bad days" still), better than some time with an experienced, proven, ecollar trainer, spending a pretty short amount of time with your female, and making her life better (by better I mean stress free). 

You can train your dog however you want, obviously, and you don't have to answer my question. I'm just genuinely curious, you've admitted that there are good uses of these tools, you've admitted to some pretty big problems, leading to prozac (that she's still on and still reactive), why not try something else? I'm honestly not trying to pressure you at all, just really curious why you won't try any of this? Do you ever wonder if by your completely rejecting an entire set of training options, you're actually keeping your dog in a stressed, drugged, state of mind, instead of freeing her of all that?? 

Again, not trying to pressure, just really trying to understand why someone would have such issues, and remain so closed off to scientifically proven methods?? You've researched a lot, but it's been pretty one sided and unbalanced. Why not balance it a bit? Sometimes it seems like AF folks (or any extreme group for that matter) get so mired down in their beliefs and methods that it becomes more about proving a point, and less about the dog. imho


----------



## boomer11

Gtf what about my post? Isn't that what you did? 

Instead of actually trying other training methods, you are so set in your ways that you'd rather give your dog drugs just so you can continue training YOUR way. ***COMMENT REMOVED MY MOD***

THERE IS NO NEED FOR ANYTHING PERSONAL. STATE YOUR OPINION AND BACK IT UP. EVERY PERSON IS ENTITLED TO TRAIN IN THE WAY THEY WISH.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

When I said "all", it was more in the sense of, hey, AF folks aren't ALL judgemental prong-and-ecollar banners who euthanize dogs who don't respond quickly enough to clicker training. Not that anyone had stated "all" in the prong ban thread.


----------



## DaniFani

glowingtoadfly said:


> Actually she hasn't bruised me in months, as I stated earler. She's been doing pretty well lately.  *I do hope that more bridges can be built between the AF world and the prong crowd.* It would make for more foster homes, I think. Why am I not surprised that you like Kikopup?


Here's the issue....the "prong crowd" are *usually people that utilize every positive method the "AF crowd" use, and then layer it to become reliable. It's not a vs competition...I'm learning in life that any and all extremes are bad/useless. It's all about balance. AF is not balanced, it has the EXACT SAME potential of creating stress/confusion in the mind of a dog, as you'd argue that a misused prong would. To me, AF is just an extreme of the scale...it's the opposite of abuse of a prong/ecollar...but both are extremes, neither are balanced and imo neither (AF and tool abuse) very successful.


----------



## carmspack

You need to have a balanced approach to training. Use whatever tool you need to instruct and correct the dog . That would be determined by the dog's nature or temperament, the issue, the situation , the gravity of having a behaviour stopped .


----------



## glowingtoadfly

DaniFani said:


> Well stated, Gwen has an excellent story of the "lightbulb" going off with her dog when she started utilizing the prong. So many people think prongs/ecollars cause so much stress. I've seen the opposite happen, dogs that were very confused and stressed, achieve clarity and freeness from balanced training.
> 
> My TD just got the newest Einstein ecollar, she was using it for a dog at a level 10 (out of 100), it was neat to see how an EXTREMELY low level can have such an effect. It was so much "lower" compared to a correction on a flat collar...people just don't get that. It was like a tickle on your hand.
> 
> One of the things I really found interesting about this study is that the dog's stress levels were measured and the ones with ecollars were LESS stressed/stress free, compared to the ones without.
> 
> GTF, you stated that you'd rather see your dog on a prong/ecollar before euthanasia, admitted that the tools are effective in the right hands, etc.... This study is arguing that your female could be 100% fixed of her reactivity and other issues with the help of an experienced trainer utilizing an ecollar. Why not do that? Why is prozac (with admitted "bad days" still), better than some time with an experienced, proven, ecollar trainer, spending a pretty short amount of time with your female, and making her life better (by better I mean stress free).
> 
> You can train your dog however you want, obviously, and you don't have to answer my question. I'm just genuinely curious, you've admitted that there are good uses of these tools, you've admitted to some pretty big problems, leading to prozac (that she's still on and still reactive), why not try something else? I'm honestly not trying to pressure you at all, just really curious why you won't try any of this? Do you ever wonder if by your completely rejecting an entire set of training options, you're actually keeping your dog in a stressed, drugged, state of mind, instead of freeing her of all that??
> 
> Again, not trying to pressure, just really trying to understand why someone would have such issues, and remain so closed off to scientifically proven methods?? You've researched a lot, but it's been pretty one sided and unbalanced. Why not balance it a bit? Sometimes it seems like AF folks (or any extreme group for that matter) get so mired down in their beliefs and methods that it becomes more about proving a point, and less about the dog. imho


As I stated, she has improved, so we are now considering taking her off the behavioral meds (and quite happily). Prozac is a tool, like a prong or an ecollar. Prozac should be carefully used for fearful and anxious dogs under the supervision of a vet and behaviorist, which is what we did. I do not think it makes her "drugged" or means we don't care deeply for her.. We noticed that it improved the anxious mouthing within a few months, along with a management plan of not walking her in the loud stressful city, and clicker training her to do matwork. As to why, I just have never felt that it was the right decision. I'm not closed off, I just believe that it is possible to train her positively, and that Prozac was the right decision to take away her anxiety so we could have some time to get through to her. I guess I worded the prong crowd/ AF world sentence in that way because I am debating it in my own head right now, between the two, what would be best for this dog. I suppose you are right, many people use both.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

boomer11 said:


> Gtf what about my post? Isn't that what you did?
> 
> Instead of actually trying other training methods, you are so set in your ways that you'd rather give your dog drugs just so you can continue training YOUR way. ***COMMENT REMOVED MY MOD***


This comment, and others you have made, is quite instructive in explaining why I felt these discussions become personal and why I felt targeted for my beliefs. Thanks for illustrating my point, Boomer!


----------



## David Winners

All 3 of these dogs were trained in the Michael Ellis system, which includes rewards based marker training and aversives using a prong and e-collar. Forrest is an instructor at the Michael Ellis School.

I don't see the fear in these dogs that this type of training is supposed to create. No avoidance. No signs of bad handler relationship at all. One of them is a BC, which are notoriously soft dogs. 

When is the last time your dogs had this much fun training?






I'm not saying you can not achieve this type of training with AF methods, but rather that balanced training with aversives is not the devil that some make it out to be. It is not black and white.


----------



## Merciel

glowingtoadfly said:


> This comment, and others you have made, is quite instructive in explaining why I felt these discussions become personal and why I felt targeted for my beliefs.


I guess what I'm left baffled by is why you keep sticking your finger in the electrical socket, so to speak.

These arguments never change anyone's mind. Swapping links to other people's arguments also never changes anyone's mind, particularly when they're links that have been around for a while and have been swapped before (not saying that's _always_ the case, but on this iteration of the argument I haven't seen anything yet that I haven't seen before, and I have read far fewer of these links than many other people have).

So... like... why keep doing it? Especially if the end result is that you just feel browbeaten and personally antagonized?

Let it go, close the thread, train your dogs.


----------



## Blanketback

"At the age of five months, we started working with a wonderful obedience competition coach by the name of Patty Ruzzo, who employs purely *operant conditioning* training techniques. Ben blossomed under her tutelage."

"At the age of 7 months, I started to notice that Ben would growl occasionally at other dogs.* He would bark at them and hastily pull me towards them. I was not sure of his intent. Frightened by this behavior*, I sought help from an aggression expert in my area."

Ben: An Aggressive Dog Case Study | Karen Pryor Clicker Training

GTF, remember when I said it was really easy to teach a dog aggressive behaviors? It's really easy to teach them all sorts of things, including behaviors you'd rather that they didn't display. The trouble is, we don't connect our actions to their learning, like in Ben's case.

The pup was doing fantastic using operant conditioning. Why did she stop? Because she allowed her pup to pull her towards other dogs - and instead of seeing an exuberant pup, she was frightened by the behavior.

The owner was losing control, which is a very bad thing. The terrible 'training' that followed was another bad thing, but the owner should take responsibility and admit to the fact that she wasn't providing her pup with the proper foundation and structure he needed. You don't let your pup pull you around wherever it wants to lead you, and you don't give off panic attack vibes. That's the whole problem right there, and that crappy training could have been avoided altogether.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

glowingtoadfly said:


> As I stated, she has improved, so we are now considering taking her off the behavioral meds (and quite happily). Prozac is a tool, like a prong or an ecollar. Prozac should be carefully used for fearful and anxious dogs under the supervision of a vet and behaviorist, which is what we did. I do not think it makes her "drugged" or means we don't care deeply for her.. We noticed that it improved the anxious mouthing within a few months, along with a management plan of not walking her in the loud stressful city, and clicker training her to do matwork. As to why, I just have never felt that it was the right decision. I'm not closed off, I just believe that it is possible to train her positively, and that Prozac was the right decision to take away her anxiety so we could have some time to get through to her. I guess I worded the prong crowd/ AF world sentence in that way because I am debating it in my own head right now, between the two, what would be best for this dog. I suppose you are right, many people use both.


This just blows my mind. The dog is acting like a normal dog with a lack of consistent direction or leadership maybe some genetic nerve issues. So instead of creating consistency by showing the dog what to do and correcting the dog for doing the wrong thing we go through an unecessarily long and drawn out process which involves DRUGGING the dog so compliance can be achieved. Altering the natual processes of the brain because whatever system we are wedded to is not working! 
Not changing the training system to match the DOGS needs but altering the dog to match the HUMANS needs. This is narcism not training. What takes a competent trainer 1 week now has been going on for over 7 months?

THIS is what drives many people nuts about the af movement. Trainers or "behaviorists" that do stuff like this and continue to desperately justify what has clearly failed.

Prozac is NOT a tool, no trainer of decent repute uses it. Its a crutch used by those who have failed to work with what the dog naturally is. You want to talk about abuse? Drugging a dog because who she is does not suit your system or personal beliefs is a good place to start.


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## carmspack

agree Blitzkrieg .


----------



## Blanketback

Blitzkrieg, I couldn't agree more. 

I won't argue that medicating a dog in some circumstances might be the better choice, but I'll leave that decision to the experts, the likes of Nicholas Dodman. _The Dog Who Loved Too Much_ was an eye-opener for me. This would be considered an absolute last resort, and not to be taken lightly.


----------



## Merciel

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Prozac is NOT a tool, no trainer of decent repute uses it. Its a crutch used by those who have failed to work with what the dog naturally is.


That isn't true.

If what your dog "naturally is" is an animal with severely abnormal brain chemistry, then Prozac might be a very reasonable tool to use. I did it and I would do it again.

I am not saying that glowingtoadfly is or isn't in the same situation, because I've never met her or her dogs and I don't know what she's dealing with.

But there are absolutely situations where no "competent trainer," of whatever methodology, is going to fix the dog in a week, because what is going on is not really a training issue. There are absolutely situations where medication is warranted.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Blanketback said:


> Blitzkrieg, I couldn't agree more.
> 
> I won't argue that medicating a dog in some circumstances might be the better choice, but I'll leave that decision to the experts, the likes of Nicholas Dodman. _The Dog Who Loved Too Much_ was an eye-opener for me. This would be considered an absolute last resort, and not to be taken lightly.


 
What kills me is there is nothing special or different about this dog.


----------



## RocketDog

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> What kills me is there is nothing special or different about this dog.



You know this because you've personally met this dog?


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Merciel said:


> That isn't true.
> 
> If what your dog "naturally is" is an animal with severely abnormal brain chemistry, then Prozac might be a very reasonable tool to use. I did it and I would do it again.
> 
> I am not saying that glowingtoadfly is or isn't in the same situation, because I've never met her or her dogs and I don't know what she's dealing with.
> 
> But there are absolutely situations where no "competent trainer," of whatever methodology, is going to fix the dog in a week, because what is going on is not really a training issue. There are absolutely situations where medication is warranted.


There are plenty of dogs that have genetic issues relating to fear and insecurity, a competent trainer does not require medication to change the brain chemistry in order to train the dog. 
All dog respond to certain stimuli relating to aversion and motivation. A good trainer uses both of those to shape the behavior they want. Happens everyday no meds needed.

As to my week timeline, that was in relation to her dogs issues which are not atypical at all. Ill say it again, *ONE WEEK.*


----------



## carmspack

I don't use an e-collar . I might need to at some point. I would never deny someone using the e-collar appropriately . Sometimes a person may have a disability which takes away the timing or the strength to do a good correction otherwise . 

In recent years I only train dogs coming out of my own breeding program so they are very easy for me. However in years past I did run obedience classes for those obedience title destined, and did dedicate to training in ring , and more than once got a dog well under way in schutzhund . So that counts for experience. Many , many dogs have been prepped , evaluated and continued to become valuable working certified psds, or high skills search dogs . Again experience. Then for a major importer I helped some dogs with problems get put back into shape to rehome -- some came with baggage from training or expectations which were overwhelming for "that" animal, or with genetic issues of nerve compounded by too much or too little socialization . Experience.
Client always happy.

For the latter group there was many a time that an e-collar was something that I wish I had available . 

Or times when working at great distance when you need to influence the dogs course of action , only a remote control e-collar would allow for exact timing. No way you could get there yourself into the zone , physically and sometimes not even by voice . Would have been handy.

The thing is If I were to use one I would first have instruction by a very capable person skilled in the use of this tool. Not just apply the juice.

Reward based with / and fair and firm corrections , slip collar , pinch or spike , e-collar , all are tools in the bag of tricks. 
Most important is establishing a good leader's relationship with the dog , and leadership has authority.

A trainer must be able to select the tool which enables him to get results . A correction is not angry revenge . Nobody should arbitrarily deny use of any one of the tools. 
No one should promote or prohibit .

someone mentioned a pinch collar in the von Stephanitz book, YES , page 580 . Pinch collar as we know it called Torquatus training collar . Another collar "with spikes that looks barbed . Another collar with spikes on the inside of a flat collar , for breaking in , for the recalcitrant puller . This one resembles the modern ones that look to be an ordinary flat collar on the outside , with spikes on the inside.
sample Prong Collars

page 578 collar with 3 links, flat leather collar , and chain collar as we know it .


----------



## lhczth

*Lets please try to stay on topic and stop the personal attacks. 

Thank you,

ADMIN*


----------



## LouCastle

glowingtoadfly said:


> I was simply stating my opinion that these boards have a definite slant one way, not "playing the victim card." * I also found the Karen's Cat "fallacy" ridiculous. To judge an entire movement by one person's one questionable decision is frankly laughable. *


What truly is _"laughable"_ is the way that you keep trying to minimize the unnecessary killing of an animal merely because the person, in this case, one who claims great expertise, could not _"decipher ... [the animal's] motivation."_ No one is judging _"an entire movement."_ although the _"one person's questionable decision"_ did come from one of the leader's of that movement. People accept Ms. Pryor as an expert, yet she has this incident on her resume. To me that speaks directly to her LACK of expertise as well as her humanity. That _"movement"_ frequently bashes us for _"abuse, inhumanity and cruelty,"_ yet we have this PROOF of hers. 



glowingtoadfly said:


> Right, I get that some positive trainers paint all correction trainers with a broad brush and try to take these tools from everyone, even those like David Winners, and Gwen. I get how infuriating that is. * The Karen's Cat thing seemed to be approaching the same level of judgemental-ness. *


The difference is that this _"movement"_ often 'judges' us based on what they IMAGINE Ecollar training to be like. The fact is that few of them have a clue. Here, we have an unspeakable act of cruelty, * from the mouth of the actor. * Nothing to imagine there, just THE FACT of that cruelty.


----------



## LouCastle

David Winners said:


> They (PO people) haven't used an e-collar at all. They believe it is akin to getting shocked off an outlet or an electric fence. Generally, their opinions and theories have absolutely no grounds in science or fact.
> 
> In person, I put the e-collar on them and train them to do something. It's amazing how the * lightbulb * goes on LOL. Pair it with markers and rewards and you have a super fast, very effective training method. Sounds like torture huh


Years back I did an Ecollar workshop in the UK at a SAR competition I was helping to judge. A rather anti−Ecollar country generally speaking, and a rather anti−Ecollar group. Rather than just talk, I got a volunteer from the audience, found her working level and then taught her to recall without speaking a word to her. I provided a distraction of a 100 Euro note and called her away from it. 

Some of those _"light bulbs"_ you mention, went on and I had some converts.


----------



## LouCastle

Probably just a coincidence right? 

STORY 1.


glowingtoadfly said:


> Dog aggression may be caused by owners, new study finds
> Study about confrontative techniques causing aggression.
> Study indicates that confrontational or punishment-based dog training linked to aggression and other behavior problems in canines


STORY 2. 


glowingtoadfly said:


> Ben: An Aggressive Dog Case Study | Karen Pryor Clicker Training
> Case study of dog treated first with prong, then clicker for prong-caused problems.


It's interesting to note that in STORY 1, a study that showed that aggression in dogs may have been caused by their owners and the methods that they were using. 

In STORY 2, the author says this,


> At the age of five months, * we started working with a wonderful obedience competition coach by the name of Patty Ruzzo, who employs purely operant conditioning training techniques. * Ben blossomed under her tutelage.
> 
> Emma and Ben in Karen's Experimental Masters Class
> * At the age of 7 months, I started to notice that Ben would growl occasionally at other dogs. * He would bark at them and hastily pull me towards them.


So, after only two months of training using * "purely operant conditioning training techniques" * the dog became aggressive. Hmmmmm



glowingtoadfly said:


> Emma Parsons may not have known what was going to happen when she started out with Ben and took him to that trainer.


By _"that trainer"_ I bet you mean the one that used harsh methods on Ben. But I wonder, if we're to believe the University of Penn study, it was the * "purely operant conditioning training techniques" * that caused the dog to became aggressive. And that happened after ONLY two months of using them. 



glowingtoadfly said:


> She did rehabilitate him from his aggression using clicker training with Karen Pryor's help and write a widely cited book about the process,


Good thing she didn't have a problem with a cat! 



glowingtoadfly said:


> ... He lunged, bared his teeth, and screamed, as gobs and gobs of saliva flew from his mouth... That sounds like a major DA issue to me.


Then I'd say you really don't know much about dog to dog aggression. That's a * display, * not aggression itself. If the dog had actually been in several fights with other dogs, where blood had been drawn THAT would be _"a major DA issue."_




glowingtoadfly said:


> I am not comparing prongs and ecollars to hitting and alpha rolling, except in the case of Emma Parsons' dog Ben, which I cited before, * and cases like this do happen often. *


You mean cases where a dog become aggressive when their trainers uses * "purely operant conditioning training techniques?" * After all, the article you linked, STORY 1, told us that dogs are aggressive because of the methods that their trainers used and Ms. Parsons used nothing but those methods. 



glowingtoadfly said:


> I think in the article, Emma Parsons was simply making a personal statement about where she personally stands with her own dog, as far as stringing him up.


But wait GTF, the aggression didn't start until AFTER she'd been working with the dog for two months using ONLY * "purely operant conditioning training techniques." * Based on the facts you linked to in STORY 1 it was THOSE METHODS that caused the aggression, NOT the "stringing up." 



glowingtoadfly said:


> Just as Karen Pryor made a personal choice with her cat.


I'd call a _"personal choice"_ something like whether to drink some lemonade or a Miller Lite. Ms. Pryor's _"personal choice"_ resulted in a horrible death for a living creature. Not quite the same thing is it? 



glowingtoadfly said:


> I also think I would rather not see my dog strung up like that, and * would never place her in the hands of a trainer like Emma Parsons' dog.bbb *


*

You're referring to the ones who taught Ms. Parsons the techniques that FIRST resulted in aggression right? Those  "purely operant conditioning training techniques." *


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Yup. IMO it's one of those things if you have to explain you've already lost the battle.

Having said that, well put Mr. Castle.

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:




LouCastle said:


> What truly is _"laughable"_ is the way that you keep trying to minimize the unnecessary killing of an animal merely because the person, in this case, one who claims great expertise, could not _"decipher ... [the animal's] motivation."_ No one is judging _"an entire movement."_ although the _"one person's questionable decision"_ did come from one of the leader's of that movement. People accept Ms. Pryor as an expert, yet she has this incident on her resume. To me that speaks directly to her LACK of expertise as well as her humanity. That _"movement"_ frequently bashes us for _"abuse, inhumanity and cruelty,"_ yet we have this PROOF of hers.
> 
> 
> 
> The difference is that this _"movement"_ often 'judges' us based on what they IMAGINE Ecollar training to be like. The fact is that few of them have a clue. Here, we have an unspeakable act of cruelty, * from the mouth of the actor. * Nothing to imagine there, just THE FACT of that cruelty.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

The study I cited was on confrontative techniques causing aggression, not operant conditioning causing aggression. I doubt that clicker training caused Ben to growl and pull towards other dogs. Emma Parsons stated that after he was strung up on the prong collar, Ben became much more reactive. I was referring to the prong collar trainer who choked Ben in my statement about never allowing that to happen to one of my dogs.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Can clicker training cause aggression? - Rochester dog training | Examiner.com
Out of one hundred twenty four dogs who were trained using food rewards, two reported aggression. 
Sixty respondents used alpha rolls and dominance downs. Eighteen of the sixty reported aggression.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0168159108003717


----------



## kjdreyer

I also doubt that clicker training caused Ben to growl and pull towards other dogs, I can't imagine anybody believing that. But perhaps, clicker training wasn't working to stop that behavior. One of the points of this entire discussion is that, for some dogs, clicker training might be all that is needed to elicit better behavior. For other dogs, the reward of growling and pulling towards other dogs needs stronger methods to be overcome. And, people that chose to use other tools to teach their dogs what is acceptable and what isn't shouldn't be prevented from using said tool, simply because other trainers don't like that tool. To automatically have the use of that tool be deemed abuse or even "confrontative" is offensive, but hey, believe what you want. Just don't be surprised when trying to foist your beliefs on others causes some blowback.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

I have stated that I do not feel it is my place to take these tools from others. I am against the ban of these tools, and am not trying to take them away from those who would use them. In the study I cited, prongs corrections were also tracked. I could only see a grey part of a line in the visual percentages, and would have to purchase a subscription to see the numbers and percentages of how many dogs reacted aggressively to a prong correction. Still, from what I saw, prong corrections caused more aggressive responses than food rewards.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Training with the Prong Collar | Suzanne Clothier
I find myself agreeing with Suzanne Clothier on prongs and by extension ecollars...


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

I find myself believing that for some people forums are not a good place. For some they create learning opportunities, for others they offer a platform that seem to create the opposite effect.
When you havent trained one dog or done anything other then tell internet stories its time to stop talking and start listening or at least training. Forget internet articles they are not going to help when the experience is not there to properly evaluate the content.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

I'd prefer for experienced prong and ecollar users to please start discussing the article again, I have said my piece and am simply going to listen with interest. As far as the poor kitty who died for peeing on the stove in the home of a famous clicker trainer, I think we have all heard enough about it to last a lifetime.. I just find it strange that people use her techniques, yet bash her for one reprehensible action.


----------



## David Winners

They aren't "her" techniques. 

It's not like someone is all bad or good. I have learned a lot of things from trainers that I would never leave a dog with, or trust to proof a behavior.

The world is not black and white, and neither is dog training.

David Winners


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## carmspack

again , all methods and all tools should be considered for training , as long as they are effective , and humane.

No one approach should be exclusively promoted , nor any one approach be prohibited.

Following one approach becomes cultist . Limiting . Not natural to self .

A lot of good training becomes intuitive .


----------



## LouCastle

glowingtoadfly said:


> The study I cited was on confrontative techniques causing aggression, not operant conditioning causing aggression.


Yes I know. 

I consider training that uses * "purely operant conditioning training techniques" * to be _"confrontative."_ You hold up a treat or let the dog know that you have treats (or toys) and then FORCE the dog to perform some behavior before you'll give it to him. Sometimes dogs are not fed, so that they'll perform for these treats. Offering a treat and then withholding it, is VERY _"confrontative."_ 

In any case I'm not a big fan of "studies" that are done by taking surveys of pet owners. Sometimes people aren't honest. Sometimes they don't understand the questions but they don't want to reveal their ignorance, so they guess. Sometimes they don't know the meaning of words, so they guess. 



glowingtoadfly said:


> I doubt that clicker training caused Ben to growl and pull towards other dogs.


Well then, please tell us what DID cause the aggression? 



glowingtoadfly said:


> Emma Parsons stated that after he was strung up on the prong collar, Ben became much more reactive.


I don't doubt it. That's an abusive training technique that I doubt that anyone here would endorse or use. Typically it's reserved for when a dog physically attacks a handler and there's no alternative. It's not a training technique, it's a life saving technique, designed to reduce or eliminate the dog's opportunity to cause physical harm to the handler. Yet you and Ms. Parsons cite it as an acceptable training technique. 

But conveniently you ignore the fact that she'd been working with the dog for two months and THEN, after her methods were used, the dog became aggressive. Is it possible that this was genetic based, and you, the PP crowd and she just ignored that fact? THE FACT IS that you have no idea, but because the scenario fits your ethos, you seize on it, as if you did know. 



glowingtoadfly said:


> I was referring to the prong collar trainer who choked Ben in my statement about never allowing that to happen to one of my dogs.


I know. I'd NEVER allow anyone to tease one of my dogs with a treat. It's my opinion that it causes psychological damage that's just as bad, if not worse than the physical abuse of stringing a dog up using his leash. 



glowingtoadfly said:


> Can clicker training cause aggression? - Rochester dog training | Examiner.com
> Out of one hundred twenty four dogs who were trained using food rewards, two reported aggression.
> Sixty respondents used alpha rolls and dominance downs. Eighteen of the sixty reported aggression.
> Survey of the use and outcome of confrontational and non-confrontational training methods in client-owned dogs showing undesired behaviors


An opinion piece and an abstract hardly prove anything. The fact remains that Ms. Parsons tells us that she ONLY used * "purely operant conditioning training techniques" * to train her dog. Yet the dog became aggressive towards other dogs. 



glowingtoadfly said:


> Training with the Prong Collar | Suzanne Clothier
> I find myself agreeing with Suzanne Clothier on prongs * and by extension ecollars... *


Ms. Clothier does not make an * extension * of her quarter−of−a−century old article to Ecollars and it's inappropriate of you to do so. That hasn't slowed you down a bit. LOL. 

I see that you're starting to do some work in SchH. Can you tell us of your experience in training dogs and with the Ecollar and pinch collars please? 



glowingtoadfly said:


> I'd prefer for experienced prong and ecollar users to please start discussing the article again, I have said my piece and am simply going to listen with interest.


You've yet to do that in this discussion that so far has gone to 143 posts. Rather you've written in opposition to the use of Ecollars and have cited several studies that you think support that cause, even though they don't. 



glowingtoadfly said:


> As far as the poor kitty who died for peeing on the stove in the home of a famous clicker trainer, I think we have all heard enough about it to last a lifetime..


Yet you bring it up again!? 



glowingtoadfly said:


> I just find it strange that people use * her techniques, * yet bash her for one * reprehensible action. *


_"Her techniques?"_ Just what is it in her book that is _"hers?"_ Fact is Ms. Pryor has NOTHING NEW in that book. It's nothing but a popularization of the techniques that were developed by the pioneers in the field of OC. She was not one of them. 

In any case, I'm reminded of the man who's found late in life to be a serial killer. The papers will publish statement after statement from his neighbors who will say, "He always seem like a nice guy to me." Here we have what you FINALLY have admitted is a _"reprehensible action"_ but try something. Ask about it on some PP boards and see if any of them know about it. It's glossed over and many will deny it if you don't tell them that she put it into her own book. I've caught them doing so many times by asking about it, but not saying that it had anything to do with her. They'll come back with statements about how "monstrous, inhumane, stupid, ignorant, lazy, or cruel" it was. SOME have even gone so far as to call it _"murder."_ When I reveal that it was their heroine, they deny it. When I cite the page number where it appears in her book, they either disappear or they're full of excuses. On occasion they'll trip all over themselves, NOW trying to find a reason to justify it.


----------



## Blanketback

"It is also the trainer's responsibility to know when to escalate the stimulus, and when to choose a new one if desired results are not achieved. To continue with stimuli that do not motivate the dog results in confusion, frustration, and nagging on the handler's part, all of which are destructive to the dog's attitude. If the trainer is aware of the prong collar as an appropriate alternative, this situation can be avoided"

Training with the Prong Collar | Suzanne Clothier

I agree with this part, that I quoted above. Right on the money! I'm not always a SC fan, but I don't think anyone can agree about anything 100% of the time regardless of the topic. And I do train like that: get right to the point with my dog - here's how it is, it's not confusing at all.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Hi Lou,
I thought I was just going to be able to listen, but found myself directly addressed again, so felt the need to clear up a few things as I could tell that you did not fully understand where I am coming from in your post . Sorry if it wasn't clear that I do NOT find hanging a dog to be an acceptable training technique, nor do I think Ms. Parsons finds it acceptable. As to why I think Ben became aggressive towards other dogs, I believe, like you, that it may have been a genetic issue. I can't know, because I wasn't there. Where we may or may not differ is on whether hanging Ben by the prong for aggressing at the trainer's dog made him worse. I believe that that experience created more aggression, because Ben now associated other dogs being near him with this experience, so he became more reactive. I do not believe that most prong / ecollar/balanced trainers would find hanging Ben in this way acceptable, nor do I believe that any PP trainers would find this acceptable. Yes, I'm currently taking my dogs to Schutzhund, but my husband and I have no plans for prong or ecollar use at this time. Should we be advised to use these tools by the trainers, we would probably discuss it and decide whether we felt these tools were neccesary and if we would prefer not to progress farther in the sport rather than use them. I find the sport to be more about how much fun my dogs are currently having and that is my biggest concern going forward. We are currently working on drive building, focus, and obedience. As for my experience with aversives, when I was 21 I trained my parents lab using a choke collar. I did not know there were other ways of training nor much about its proper use besides how my mother taught me to use it. (She is a correction trainer). I was in charge of raising this puppy because I was not working at the time due to an illness and was living at home with my parents for the summer between college semesters. My experience with the choke collar and how I felt about correcting made me look into other options for my dogs. I was able to successfully train the dog with a choke collar but I would never use one again. I don't feel Sebastian the lab is unhappy with my parents or that there is anything wrong with their way, or your way. Just not my personal choice. I have said again and again that I really do not wish to take these tools from others. I just think a lot of people mindlessly use them without consulting a good trainer who researches the theory of these tools. Now that that is cleared up, hopefully people can go back to discussing the article.


----------



## GatorDog

So sick of this thread showing up in active topics. Beating a dead horse and talking in circles isn't going to change anyone's mind. I get the results and the attitude that I want from my dogs using the tools that I choose and no amount of articles posted is going to change it. I know because I go out every single day and train my dogs religiously with these collars and have yet to be mauled by any of them. So how about we let this die already. You don't like collars. Have at it. Feed your dogs for showing aggressive behaviors and let us all know how that works out for you instead of arguing about all of the other training techniques that you're unwilling to use anyways. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## LouCastle

glowingtoadfly said:


> Hi Lou,
> I thought I was just going to be able to listen, but found myself directly addressed again, so felt the need to clear up a few things as I could tell that you did not fully understand where I am coming from in your post . Sorry if it wasn't clear that I do NOT find hanging a dog to be an acceptable training technique, nor do I think Ms. Parsons finds it acceptable.


The authors of the article you cited to support your position called it a _"training method."_ I disagree. It's a self defense technique when a dog attacks the handler. Only a trainer who is decades out−of−date would consider it to be a training method, as seems to be the case with the authors of the article. 



glowingtoadfly said:


> As to why I think Ben became aggressive towards other dogs, I believe, like you, that it may have been a genetic issue. I can't know, because I wasn't there.


The authors of the "study" that you cited insinuated that aggression comes from confrontational training methods. Since Ms. Parsons worked with the dog for two months AND THEN he became aggressive it must be (according to those authors) because the methods she used were confrontational. She claims that she used * "purely operant conditioning training techniques" * there fore............ I did not see them give any other reason why the dogs in their "study" may have become aggressive. Perhaps it's in the full article? If so, they did not find it important enough to put it into the abstract. But then the authors have a clear and obvious bias, both philosophically and financially. 

It should be obvious that I'm pointing out the absurdity of the claim of the authors of that "study." 



glowingtoadfly said:


> Where we may or may not differ is on whether hanging Ben by the prong for aggressing at the trainer's dog made him worse. I believe that that experience created more aggression, because Ben now associated other dogs being near him with this experience, so he became more reactive.


Correlation is not causation. It's a logical fallacy to think that in most situations, including this one, that just because two things happened together, or that one followed the other, that one _caused _the other. Interestingly the "study" makes no mention of the thousands of times that confrontational methods have worked with complete success. They only attempt (but fail) to point to times that it's failed. 



glowingtoadfly said:


> I do not believe that most prong / ecollar/balanced trainers would find hanging Ben in this way acceptable, nor do I believe that any PP trainers would find this acceptable.


Yet you cited this "study" to support your statements. 



glowingtoadfly said:


> Yes, I'm currently taking my dogs to Schutzhund, but my husband and I have no plans for prong or ecollar use at this time. Should we be advised to use these tools by the trainers, we would probably discuss it and decide whether we felt these tools were neccesary and if we would prefer not to progress farther in the sport rather than use them.


I suggest that rather than waste your time and energy and that of your dog, that you ask your trainers how many people have been able to achieve anything significant in SchH (or any other biting sport) using only the methods that you espouse. 



glowingtoadfly said:


> As for my experience with aversives,


I don't recall asking for your _"experience with aversives."_ I asked you to _"tell us of your experience in training dogs and with the Ecollar and pinch collars..."_ I'll assume that you have NO experience with either, since you talked all around them, but did not specifically address my question. 

This is about what I expected. USUALLY those who speak against Ecollars or pinch collars have little or no experience with them. Sometimes they have none at all. But they've READ lots and have HEARD lots. It also seems that you've trained one dog, to what standard, we have no idea, and that you're now "exploring" SchH with another one. 

Of course there's nothing wrong with being inexperienced with either dogs or some tools used in training them, we all started out there. But people need to realize that when you give an opinion about these things, they're hearing from, for all practical purposes, someone who knows next−to−nothing about ANY OF THE THINGS UNDER DISCUSSION. Feel free to correct me if I've gotten this wrong.


----------



## Sri

Lets just stop bashing up on one person please. Its a forum, and people should be allowed to speak their mind and we should be able to receive it neutrally.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Doesn't work that way nor should it.

I agree, Lou Castle really shouldn't have to put up with this though. Ha.

There's one common denominator here.........who keeps... oke: away. 








Sri said:


> Lets just stop bashing up on one person please. Its a forum, and people should be allowed to speak their mind and we *should be able to receive it neutrally.*


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Yes, I would much prefer not to be directly addressed in this thread anymore as I merely am trying to learn in my own way on this forum, not bash anyone's methods. If it works for you, fine! Great! I'm happy for you. I was merely asked to cite a study to support why I do what I do with my own dogs. Please, I'm truly interested in seeing this thread go back to discussing the article Blanketback posted, not me and my dogs anymore. If you're interested in addressing me or giving me advice, which I will happily hear, http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...yard-obey-recall-before-i-even-said-word.html. I will be posting about my dogs' progress here. Thank you for your time, and for looking at what I posted and for giving me your experienced opinion, Lou. Sorry Alexis, sorry Gwen.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

In other news my darn reciever is driving me nuts. Got the one inch prongs on it and the newer flex collar and STILL running into inconsistent stim issues on the dog. Cant figure out whether its the loose neck skin and thick fur on the current dog or contact problems. This has been forcing me up from the lower levels and affecting my precision.

Im thinking about giving up and going to the double box, everyone else seems to have...


----------



## boomer11

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> In other news my darn reciever is driving me nuts. Got the one inch prongs on it and the newer flex collar and STILL running into inconsistent stim issues on the dog. Cant figure out whether its the loose neck skin and thick fur on the current dog or contact problems. This has been forcing me up from the lower levels and affecting my precision.
> 
> Im thinking about giving up and going to the double box, everyone else seems to have...


Maybe your dog is just one tough bitch? I remember I thought I had loose contacts when i called my dog and he didn't even look like he felt the stim. He was just intensely staring at a fire truck. I got a little closer,turned it up a little higher and pushed the stim button 4x and I saw his entire neck twitch 4 times and he didn't even notice it. I was uncomfortable with going any higher so I just walked up to him and tapped him on the shoulder instead.


----------



## mego

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> In other news my darn reciever is driving me nuts. Got the one inch prongs on it and the newer flex collar and STILL running into inconsistent stim issues on the dog. Cant figure out whether its the loose neck skin and thick fur on the current dog or contact problems. This has been forcing me up from the lower levels and affecting my precision.
> 
> Im thinking about giving up and going to the double box, everyone else seems to have...


having that issue lately too, but I just have 3/4 in prongs that usually have no problem digging down ..
What kind do you use?


----------



## LouCastle

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> In other news my darn reciever is driving me nuts. Got the one inch prongs on it and the newer flex collar and STILL running into inconsistent stim issues on the dog. Cant figure out whether its the loose neck skin and thick fur on the current dog or contact problems. This has been forcing me up from the lower levels and affecting my precision.


If you're using either a Dogtra or an Einstein keep reading. If you're using another brand, never mind. What I'm about to say does not apply because other brands don't deliver stim continuously as you change levels, or if they do, the jumps between levels are too large for this to work. 

I’m gonna guess that you're setting the stim level and then pressing the button when you want to give a correction. If I'm wrong, let me know. Instead of doing it that way, you might want to try starting from the lowest level that the dog will respond to when at rest and when you want to give the correction, hold the button down on continuous and turn the dial up. When you see a response from the dog, you're there. 



Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Im thinking about giving up and going to the double box, everyone else seems to have...


Not everyone. I've never felt the need. Besides the expense, there are some problems with using two boxes on one strap. If you're at the right level and the dog turns his head, breaking contact with one of the boxes, you're going to be at half the level that you need. If you dial up the stim when that happens, and the other box makes contact, you'll be way too high. That "near instantaneous" jump in levels can cause you some real problems. 

Have you tried the SCG (Surface Contact Grid)? Some people like them. Some, not so much.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

LouCastle said:


> If you're using either a Dogtra or an Einstein keep reading. If you're using another brand, never mind. What I'm about to say does not apply because other brands don't deliver stim continuously as you change levels, or if they do, the jumps between levels are too large for this to work.
> 
> I’m gonna guess that you're setting the stim level and then pressing the button when you want to give a correction. If I'm wrong, let me know. Instead of doing it that way, you might want to try starting from the lowest level that the dog will respond to when at rest and when you want to give the correction, hold the button down on continuous and turn the dial up. When you see a response from the dog, you're there.
> 
> 
> 
> Not everyone. I've never felt the need. Besides the expense, there are some problems with using two boxes on one strap. If you're at the right level and the dog turns his head, breaking contact with one of the boxes, you're going to be at half the level that you need. If you dial up the stim when that happens, and the other box makes contact, you'll be way too high. That "near instantaneous" jump in levels can cause you some real problems.
> 
> Have you tried the SCG (Surface Contact Grid)? Some people like them. Some, not so much.


 
Using Einstien 300TS with 1" contacts on a flex strap. 
I know what level she works best on "8" maybe "10-14" while in drive. I usually leave the collar on 8 and if I see no response or behavior change (eg: dog heeling, starts to drift off the leg) I use either the boost function or the manual dial to get to where a response occurs. After prolonged wear I find it becomes more likely that contact will get iffy. 
Your right Lou about going to continuous it tends to illicit a response when the nick stops being effective and helps me find the NEW working level.
I also wonder if prolonged wear numbs the contact area through consistent pressure applied by the contact points. We do a lot of hiking/training so the dog can have the collar on for a couple hours at a time.

This isnt a hardness issue I know where she is in that regard, I think its a contact / loose skin fur issue which I think transmit the stim poorly or at least inconsistently. Did not have this issue with shorter hair / tight skinned dogs. 

I have never tried a SCG, whats your opinion on it Lou is it worth the bank?


----------



## LouCastle

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Using Einstien 300TS with 1" contacts on a flex strap.


I’m not a fan of the flex straps. I can never get them to give consistent tension. 



Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I know what level she works best on "8" maybe "10-14" while in drive. I usually leave the collar on 8 and if I see no response or behavior change (eg: dog heeling, starts to drift off the leg) I use either the boost function or the manual dial to get to where a response occurs. After prolonged wear I find it becomes more likely that contact will get iffy.


A couple of things here. What setting is your boost on? I've found that 10 is good and that the factory default, 20, is too high. THAT IS, if the dog truly understands what the stim means and it has not just been used as a correction. If the latter is the case, then all bets are off as to what the boost setting should be. In any case, I much prefer to turn the dial until I get to a setting that brings a response. Sometimes the boost, no matter where it's set, is too much, and sometimes it's not enough. 

Have you ever saddled a horse that inhales a lot of air as you tighten up the cinch? This allows him to be more comfortable, when he exhales, because the strap is looser. Some dogs will do something similar, puff up their neck as you snug up the strap. Then, later, when they relax those muscles, the strap is looser. If you have such a dog, you'll have to adjust the strap in two stages. The first time when you initially put it on, and then again, a few minutes later when he relaxes. 

You may be right about contact _"becoming more iffy ... after prolonged wear."_ We get contact sores because the points impair the circulation directly under them. Leave them in one place for too long and the circulation−impaired−cells die. Perhaps with some dogs, before that happens those cells "go numb" or at least lose some of their ability to feel the stim. That's why with dogs who wear the collars for hours at a time, you should move the "box" around every couple of hours. Gravity usually pulls the box to the 5 o'clock (as the dog faces you) position. So every couple of hours call the dog over, pull the box directly away from his neck to pull the contact points out of his fur, and rotate it to either the 11, 12, or 1 o'clock position. Gravity will eventually pull it back down, but as it moves down, it will rest in a new position every couple of minutes. 



Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Your right Lou about going to continuous it tends to illicit a response when the nick stops being effective and helps me find the NEW working level.


I almost never use the nick setting, except in advanced work. One problem is due to its very nature. If the dog is running, he's "pounding" the box. At some moments, even if the strap is on properly, contact may be lost, just for an instant. If that instant occurs at the instant that you press the button on a nick setting, the dog may not receive the stim at all. It will appear as if the collar isn't working. I prefer to bounce (get on the button and off it quickly) on the continuous button. This give a stim that's much longer in duration (and hence a bit more intense) but it won't be interrupted by any pounding that may be going on. Some people call this "tapping," but I rarely press the button more than once. I prefer to use The Guidance System, where I’m on the button for much longer periods of time, turning the sitm up and down as the dog gets closer to the perfect performance. I think it give me clearer communication with the dog. 



Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I also wonder if prolonged wear numbs the contact area through consistent pressure applied by the contact points. We do a lot of hiking/training so the dog can have the collar on for a couple hours at a time.


You may be right here. Try moving the box around as I described earlier and see if that works for you. 



Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I have never tried a SCG, whats your opinion on it Lou is it worth the bank?


As I said, some people like them, some not so much. I've had them work when nothing else did and I know some people who use them all the time, on all their dogs. There are a couple of brands available, but people have told me that the original is the best. You can find them at discount prices, send me an email if you're interested. 

You might also take a look at the various contact points offered by Einstein.


----------



## LouCastle

Sri said:


> Lets just stop bashing up on one person please. Its a forum, and people should be allowed to speak their mind and we should be able to receive it neutrally.


No one is being _"bashed"_ in this discussion. People ARE allowed to speak their mind. But when there is disagreement, as there often is on this topic, people should expect others, who disagree, to _"speak their mind"_ as well. Sometimes this turns to opinions and in those cases it's helpful for the readers to know the education, experience and training of the parties involved. 

One of the blessings of the Internet is that it gives everyone a voice. One of the curses of the Internet is that everyone's voice sounds the same. People with little or no experience can sound to some, especially if they write well, as if they should be listened to. And so, in order to judge the value of advice or opinions that are dispensed, readers should know that, for example, a person who is speaking against Ecollars, has never used one, never seen one used properly and has never felt a stim from one. Parroting studies that only tangentially apply, or repeating horror stories that may or may not be true, can have the effect of scaring people away from what might be the perfect tool for them. 

Internet forums, particularly in the discussion of contentious topics, are not for the faint of heart. As one US President said, _"If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen."_


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## RocketDog

LouCastle said:


> No one is being _"bashed"_ in this discussion. People ARE allowed to speak their mind. But when there is disagreement, as there often is on this topic, people should expect others, who disagree, to _"speak their mind"_ as well. Sometimes this turns to opinions and in those cases it's helpful for the readers to know the education, experience and training of the parties involved.
> 
> One of the blessings of the Internet is that it gives everyone a voice. One of the curses of the Internet is that everyone's voice sounds the same. People with little or no experience can sound to some, especially if they write well, as if they should be listened to. And so, in order to judge the value of advice or opinions that are dispensed, readers should know that, for example, a person who is speaking against Ecollars, has never used one, never seen one used properly and has never felt a stim from one. Parroting studies that only tangentially apply, or repeating horror stories that may or may not be true, can have the effect of scaring people away from what might be the perfect tool for them.
> 
> Internet forums, particularly in the discussion of contentious topics, are not for the faint of heart. As one US President said, _"If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen."_



You haven't been on the board the last couple months. There is a bit of a "Lord of the Flies" mentality with regards to a particular poster. I must say, your habit of breaking posts down piece by piece is rather cumbersome. You're really preaching to the choir for the most part here. If you want to preach to an individual, try the PM feature. 

The thing is, so what if people don't agree with her. She isn't trying to convince other people _not _to use adversives. She's not supporting any bans on ecollars or prongs. She might have some quirky training ideas (Sorry GTF, the songs... ) but she hasn't ever responded with any thing less than calmness and politeness, regardless of how rude and blatantly condescending other posters are to her. The fact that she hasn't speaks volumes, about both her and the others. She's posted many times that she is willing to learn more. 

The point is, these discussions are utterly useless when it become _again,_ a drive to try to intimidate her into acquiescing to using an ecollar. Who cares? How does it affect you and using one? I have an ecollar, I like mine, I couldn't care less if someone on here doesn't like them/use them, whatever. It doesn't change my training in the least. Move on, people. It's tiresome to watch the same 3-5 people dominate any thread on these tools lately.


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## martemchik

I think the discussion started due to a fear of banning of these things for sale. It's an American's right to buy whatever they want, whenever they want it, and we don't want the government telling us what we can and can't have. Since Amazon stopped selling prongs in England, people now have a fear the same thing will happen in America because for some reason there is a belief that Animal Rights people have tons of power, when in reality for all the money they spend on campaigns and what not, they haven't made that much of a difference or change.

The funny thing is, the government will never ban prong collars or ecollars. Do you guys know how many things are banned in Europe that are readily available in the United States? If Amazon decides to stop selling them...fine...I can guarantee you all the websites we often order dog supplies from won't. The government has much bigger fish to fry than banning the sale of a training tool for dogs.

The reality is that the majority of people out there DO believe prongs and ecollars are cruel. You can throw all the studies you want at them, point them to Lou's website, ect, they won't care. They think you're forcing a dog to do something through pain, plain and simple. This isn't helped by the fact that 99.9% of people don't need their dogs to do anything that isn't easily taught with a treat and a leash. Sit, down, stay, recall. Dog does all that? It's perfect. No "advanced" obedience exercises are necessary.

When I see someone at a dog park, and their dog is wearing an ecollar, and they're bragging at how great their recall is. I know 99% that they didn't use Lou's method, or any of the other "accepted" methods, to get it done and I know that 99% of the time it was taught in ways that I would consider cruel.


----------



## Bear L

There are many reasons why different dogs need ecollar. For me, ecollar will likely be a lifetime tool even though I don't use it often except like another poster said, it's an insurance policy, a back up plan. 

I've a weak nerve dog and the ecollar takes the stress off her. If I approach her disapprovingly for disobedience that is a lot more stressful to her than a simple light stim to snap her out of it. A genetically weak nerve dog is unpredictable... lifetime... no amount of training is going to "proof" her 100%. I can have this dog running off leash because of the ecollar. It affords my dog the off leash fun she so greatly loves while I don't have to worry about her straying or getting into things and that it prevents her from going into that dark place in her head. As a result of ecollar, she gets to experience things she otherwise would not have and those experiences all builds her confidence. Yep, the ecollar has contributed to the confidence of my fearful dog. 

It is a shortcut to training in some ways. I don't know why that is frowned upon. Some people prefer the long route, I prefer the short cut in all things, as long as it isn't worse in quality. If I can learn something in the shortest amount possible by additional learning tools I'll take that any day over some other method that takes more time as long as I get there with the same result without much difference in what I have to give up.


----------



## Merciel

martemchik said:


> If Amazon decides to stop selling them...fine...I can guarantee you all the websites we often order dog supplies from won't.


yep

I actually think it would be _great_ if you couldn't buy them off Amazon. Knocks out the least educated segment of buyers (who are most likely to abuse the tools) and forces people intent on using this tool to at least put in enough effort to go to a dog gear specialist site.

It's not quite as good as forcing them to go to an actual trainer and take classes before sticking an e-collar on their dogs (which would be the situation in my ideal imaginary utopia) but I have a hard time seeing it as a bad thing.


----------



## LouCastle

RocketDog said:


> You haven't been on the board the last couple months. There is a bit of a "Lord of the Flies" mentality with regards to a particular poster.


Here's what I wrote, _"No one is being "bashed" * in this discussion."*_ I really don't care what went on _"the last couple of months."_ 



RocketDog said:


> I must say, your habit of breaking posts down piece by piece is rather cumbersome.


Oddly, I don't find it so. In fact it allows me to address each thought of someone that I'm talking with. Many here gloss over statements or questions that they don't like, or don't want to answer, and no one seems to notice. 



RocketDog said:


> You're really preaching to the choir for the most part here. If you want to preach to an individual, try the PM feature.


I'm not preaching at all. I'm doing the same thing that many others do, give my opinion, share what I've learned. I'm also giving advice to people who ask, when I have an answer to their questions. 



RocketDog said:


> The thing is, so what if people don't agree with her. She isn't trying to convince other people _not _to use adversives.


In a roundabout way she is. That's the effect of her posting studies that (even if only tangentially) refer to Ecollars and the "harm or damage" they do. 



RocketDog said:


> She's not supporting any bans on ecollars or prongs.


That's to her credit. Many who feel as she does DO support such bans. 



RocketDog said:


> She might have some quirky training ideas (Sorry GTF, the songs... ) but she hasn't ever responded with any thing less than calmness and politeness, regardless of how rude and blatantly condescending other posters are to her. * The fact that she hasn't speaks volumes, about both her and the others. *


I agree. It's very hard not to respond in kind when others are rude or condescending. I haven't seen those posts so I'll have to take your word for it. I've been neither rude nor condescending to her. 

It's a rather common phenomenon that occurs in discussions about dog training on the Net. OFTEN people who favor the so−called "kinder gentler methods" will come into a discussion about Ecollars telling us how bad they are and often attacking Ecollar users on a personal level. But it's just about unheard of, that anyone who uses Ecollars, barges into a discussion about those methods, telling those folks how ineffective they sometimes are and telling those folks that they should start using Ecollars. Another phenomenon that often occurs is that these folks refer ONLY to Ecollars when they're misused or abused and ONLY refer to their own methods when they are used properly. It's a fascinating dichotomy. 



RocketDog said:


> She's posted many times that she is willing to learn more.


That is admirable. So many who favor those methods have closed minds. But while she's made this statement, it seems that she's already gone, at least a short distance, down that road. Her citations of studies that don't really apply to Ecollars, DOES close her mind to their possibility. 



RocketDog said:


> The point is, these discussions are utterly useless when it become _again,_ a drive to try to intimidate her into acquiescing to using an ecollar.


I don't think anyone is trying to intimidate her into using an Ecollar. At least I'm not doing so. I really don't care what tools/methods she uses. 



RocketDog said:


> Move on, people. It's tiresome to watch the same 3-5 people dominate any thread on these tools lately.


I've found that when specific tools are discussed, and this goes for any forum and any tools, people who have expertise with those tools are the ones WHO SHOULD _"dominate [those] threads."_ I'd not want to learn to use a torque wrench from someone who has no experience with them. I'd not want to learn to measure my blood pressure from someone who is reading from the manual. And I'd not want to learn to use an Ecollar from someone who opposes their use or has never used one.


----------



## Espa

I don't believe in overpowering at all. It creates a fearful dog not a dedicated one. Years ago I brought my first puppy to an obedience class. An itty chi mix was a holy terror and my GSD puppy was a victim of its bites. The "trainer" was yelling at me and punishing my dog because he was bigger. He was a four month old puppy and only understood aggression not size. While I wanted to drop kick the little bigger, I wasn't a dog.

Any big dog takes a bit of time, not quick fix punishment. And sometimes no matter what you do they just simply don't like other dogs, I think it's just the way it is.


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## RocketDog

Ah Lou. You can always be counted on. 

To address your final paragraph, you're assuming those people are experts and qualified. There's problems when assumptions are made in general, especially when you aren't a regular member of the board. That's all I have to say on the subject. I'll leave it to the experts.


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## Baillif

Since I haven't taken my turn beating the dead horse yet, and I do so love to beat dead horses, I will add my wack.

It would be really nice to see more discussions on how to properly operate the tools within the realm of learning theory, and for that matter discussions on good, safe and effective aversive control in general and less discussions on whether a tool is the spawn of Satan or not, especially when there are so many on both sides of the arguement that are essentially clueless.


----------



## boomer11

Espa said:


> I don't believe in overpowering at all. It creates a fearful dog not a dedicated one. Years ago I brought my first puppy to an obedience class. An itty chi mix was a holy terror and my GSD puppy was a victim of its bites. The "trainer" was yelling at me and punishing my dog because he was bigger. He was a four month old puppy and only understood aggression not size. While I wanted to drop kick the little bigger, I wasn't a dog.
> 
> Any big dog takes a bit of time, not quick fix punishment. And sometimes no matter what you do they just simply don't like other dogs, I think it's just the way it is.


You sound like someone who's never used/seen an Ecollar before =) 

Btw Lou must've been president of debate club in school. I'd hate to get in an argument over anything with him.


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## Sri

Baillif said:


> Since I haven't taken my turn beating the dead horse yet, and I do so love to beat dead horses, I will add my wack.
> 
> It would be really nice to see more discussions on how to properly operate the tools within the realm of learning theory, and for that matter discussions on good, safe and effective aversive control in general and less discussions on whether a tool is the spawn of Satan or not, especially when there are so many on both sides of the arguement that are essentially clueless.



?


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Sri

I am curious about this study.

Are Shock Collars Painful or Just Annoying to Dogs?  A 2004 Study Reveals Some Answers | Animal Behavior and Medicine Blog | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS

What could have gone wrong?


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## martemchik

Sri said:


> What could have gone wrong?


Another one of those studies where its hard to pinpoint because you don't know how the ecollar was introduced to the dogs, how it was used, when it was used, and what were the signs of "anxiety" that they were looking for. Its not surprising to me that a dog yelps when its shocked for the first time. My dog yelped the first time he was corrected on a prong. Then, never again.

I think a shock from an ecollar is a different type of correction that a dog that has gotten "used" to a prong or a choke is going to not quite understand if its introduced improperly. The thing I've seen with ecollars is that because its "disconnected" and also quicker than a collar correction, it does have the effect of surprising/confusing the dog. Think about it this way...on a choke/prong, there is movement, there is sound from the chain BEFORE the pressure is actually applied to the dog's neck. No matter how fast you do it, the dog still has an idea that a correction is coming.

Although I've only seen a few dogs worked on an ecollar, and generally they've been higher drive dogs, you do see a bit more anxiety or stress when the correction is implemented. Not sure if the collar just wasn't introduced right, or isn't being used properly, but when I've seen it, the dog definitely shows the stress, but then bounces out of it due to its drive. I've also seen this from dogs that have been over corrected with prongs as well though.


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## alienwarrior56

Very interesting article indeed, and as others have said I like to keep an open mind about these things

~aw56


----------



## DaniFani

martemchik said:


> Another one of those studies where its hard to pinpoint because you don't know how the ecollar was introduced to the dogs, how it was used, when it was used, and what were the signs of "anxiety" that they were looking for. Its not surprising to me that a dog yelps when its shocked for the first time. My dog yelped the first time he was corrected on a prong. Then, never again.
> 
> I think a shock from an ecollar is a different type of correction that a dog that has gotten "used" to a prong or a choke is going to not quite understand if its introduced improperly. The thing I've seen with ecollars is that because its "disconnected" and also quicker than a collar correction, it does have the effect of surprising/confusing the dog. Think about it this way...on a choke/prong, there is movement, there is sound from the chain BEFORE the pressure is actually applied to the dog's neck. No matter how fast you do it, the dog still has an idea that a correction is coming.
> 
> Although I've only seen a few dogs worked on an ecollar, and generally they've been higher drive dogs, you do see a bit more anxiety or stress when the correction is implemented. Not sure if the collar just wasn't introduced right, or isn't being used properly, but when I've seen it, the dog definitely shows the stress, but then bounces out of it due to its drive. I've also seen this from dogs that have been over corrected with prongs as well though.


When I've seen the ecollar used the point was to actually NOT see any stress what so ever from the dog. The handler didn't want any interruption to the training, even if it was just a twitch or head shake, etc So the dog is worked on the lowest level it individually responds to...

Also, the way I've seen it used is for the very reason you described, the dog doesn't know it's coming, or who it came from. The reason the people I know utilize it is because it offers completely conflict free training. The dog doesn't realize the correction is coming from you, like it does a prong collar. Many trainers, Bart Bellon is the first that comes to mind, utilize this tool because of the conflict free training while using corrections. Einstein is also coming out with a "kick" button, you can have on your finger, so the dog doesn't see the remote (or you don't have to worry about the dog putting two and two together).

Until recently I didn't understand why everyone in IPO didn't utilize the ecollar right from the get go. Conflict free training (dog doesn't associate anything bad coming from you) is great. The ecollar allows this, while still having balanced training (you can still have punishment and not have to go punishment free to get conflict free). 

My mentor explained to me that a prong/fursaver is used first to teach the mechanics because you can give direction with the prong/leash that you can't get as easily with the ecollar. For a down you correct down, heeling correct towards you, sit correct back, etc...after the dog knows the commands (taught the mechanics), then a lot utilize the ecollar to fine tune them (teaching the dog where "safe" is ie if I'm heeling, the dog knows what the proper position is already through the mechanic training and THEY can turn the stim off by returning to the safe spot). It kind of all clicked with me (we just started a dog on an ecollar at the club).


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## Bear L

If introduced properly - meaning the dog knows why it got the stim, knows how to turn it off, timed correctly - it is very black and white for the dog. One of the benefit for my dog is it's non-emotional (kind of like what DaniFani was saying), almost like a clicker - the dog's working level is a light stim, just enough that she notices it but light enough that she CAN choose to ignore. My dog responds to vibrate as well. But if I were to use a prong or any collar or my voice for direction or correction - that will always carry some sort of a tone or emotion from me and is not as clear sometimes as a stim that is delivered consistently and much more timely each time. 

It's an excellent communication tool, such as for long distances where your voice may not travel as well. When a dog knows clearly what is expected of him/her it takes out a lot of conflict and it's just another form of "language" to them. For example, the dog is wandering about somewhere off leash (with my permission), I want the dog to come to me but the noises are too loud around us or I don't want to scream because of where I am, I ping my dog with the e-collar, the dog looks up for me and comes. The dog just sees it as another way for me to recall her and there is no pain from a vibrate or a light tap from a low level stim. It's like me tapping a person on a shoulder to come to me. Except with an e-collar I have this incredibly long arm to tap my dog. 

Doesn't hunter dogs get trained on ecollar so they can go out of sight and still take directions from the hunters? To me that is something you cannot do without an e-collar.


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## Blitzkrieg1

LouCastle said:


> I’m not a fan of the flex straps. I can never get them to give consistent tension.
> 
> *I also, but decided to go to the the bungee strap to keep the dogs stamina up. Like I said the loose skin and fur on this particular dog nessesitate an extra tight fit.* *I found I dont get any less contact issues and better stamina hence my switch.*
> 
> A couple of things here. What setting is your boost on? I've found that 10 is good and that the factory default, 20, is too high. THAT IS, if the dog truly understands what the stim means and it has not just been used as a correction. If the latter is the case, then all bets are off as to what the boost setting should be. In any case, I much prefer to turn the dial until I get to a setting that brings a response. Sometimes the boost, no matter where it's set, is too much, and sometimes it's not enough.
> 
> *Set my boost to 10 find that to be pretty effective.*
> 
> Have you ever saddled a horse that inhales a lot of air as you tighten up the cinch? This allows him to be more comfortable, when he exhales, because the strap is looser. Some dogs will do something similar, puff up their neck as you snug up the strap. Then, later, when they relax those muscles, the strap is looser. If you have such a dog, you'll have to adjust the strap in two stages. The first time when you initially put it on, and then again, a few minutes later when he relaxes.
> 
> *Haha yes this dog does that, luckily I caught on to it fairly quick. I find this does happen less with the flex collar though.*
> 
> You may be right about contact _"becoming more iffy ... after prolonged wear."_ We get contact sores because the points impair the circulation directly under them. Leave them in one place for too long and the circulation−impaired−cells die. Perhaps with some dogs, before that happens those cells "go numb" or at least lose some of their ability to feel the stim. That's why with dogs who wear the collars for hours at a time, you should move the "box" around every couple of hours. Gravity usually pulls the box to the 5 o'clock (as the dog faces you) position. So every couple of hours call the dog over, pull the box directly away from his neck to pull the contact points out of his fur, and rotate it to either the 11, 12, or 1 o'clock position. Gravity will eventually pull it back down, but as it moves down, it will rest in a new position every couple of minutes.
> 
> *Good idea I have not done that. I notice some people lately placing the reciver behind the dogs left ear at 1 o clock. I personally always put it at 5 o clock. Which do you prefer?*
> 
> I almost never use the nick setting, except in advanced work. One problem is due to its very nature. If the dog is running, he's "pounding" the box. At some moments, even if the strap is on properly, contact may be lost, just for an instant. If that instant occurs at the instant that you press the button on a nick setting, the dog may not receive the stim at all. It will appear as if the collar isn't working. I prefer to bounce (get on the button and off it quickly) on the continuous button. This give a stim that's much longer in duration (and hence a bit more intense) but it won't be interrupted by any pounding that may be going on. Some people call this "tapping," but I rarely press the button more than once. I prefer to use The Guidance System, where I’m on the button for much longer periods of time, turning the sitm up and down as the dog gets closer to the perfect performance. I think it give me clearer communication with the dog.
> 
> *I use nick for in motion exercises and prefer to use continuous for stopping or 180 degree direction change exercises. That is just how I have always done it, I suppose just bumping would achieve the same thing and improve the consistency of contact a tad. I shall try that in my next session.*
> 
> You may be right here. Try moving the box around as I described earlier and see if that works for you.
> 
> 
> 
> As I said, some people like them, some not so much. I've had them work when nothing else did and I know some people who use them all the time, on all their dogs. There are a couple of brands available, but people have told me that the original is the best. You can find them at discount prices, send me an email if you're interested.
> 
> *PM sent*
> 
> You might also take a look at the various contact points offered by Einstein.


xxxx


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## jafo220

I found this here on this site some time ago. I never got all the way through the report, but what I did read was interesting. If I remember correctly, this was posted during a discussion about the lack of research into how E-collars work and what possible effects it has on a dogs psyche.

http://www.4pawsu.com/IAABC_Ecollar.pdf

I am currently using an e-collar on my dog. I felt we were out of options. He is an extremely hard dog. We had out first session last night and it's already made drastic improvements in his overall disposition. One of the biggest differences I've noticed in just two days is he is noticing leash pressure. I can walk a few steps and stop and he stops and sometimes comes back to my side without any verbal commands. That's probably the biggest improvement. Also right there with it is his reactivity to other dogs has improved. It took a little bit to get him to start to understand, but it's also improved. He no longer tries to charge off the deck like a few days ago when the next door neighbor is out. He still looks that way but his threshold is kind of improving there. He still won't charge down the stairs when we proceed off the deck. 

All I know is it works as long as you adhere to the methods taught by an experienced trainer. I use the lowest setting possible he responds to for the correction. This can vary according to the situation.


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## Sri

From that study, 

"_*The ability of the dogs to predict an outcome did affect the level of cortisol increases seen. 
Those dogs who had been trained to see prey and avoid it had learned how to avoid the 
electrical stimulation. Those dogs who understood “here” but had not learned to respond when 
prey was present had increased stress and cortisol when electrical stimulation was given",*_

Is it possible that the dogs in group H(here) had elevated levels because their prey drive had kicked in? Otherwise it does not make sense to me since the stim would have been preceded by 'Here' the signal by which they could have avoided the stim. 

Or is it possible that the 'Here' cue itself is causing the stress because the dogs know what will come after it, and are in conflict with their prey drive?


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## LouCastle

RocketDog said:


> Ah Lou. You can always be counted on.


Yep, when called out, I respond. 



RocketDog said:


> To address your final paragraph, * you're assuming those people are experts and qualified. *


No I haven't made any assumptions and neither should anyone else. To determine if someone is an expert in a field, simply ask questions of them. For example, if you ask about their _"experience in training dogs and with the Ecollar and pinch collars"_ and they respond with a vague comment about _"aversives"_ it's a safe bet that they have little or no experience with either the Ecollar or the pinch collar. OTOH if they respond that they've done 50+ seminars and have put Ecollars on over 4,000 dogs, and that they've been using pinch collars for about 35 years, you can be pretty sure that they have some knowledge and expertise on the subject. 



RocketDog said:


> There's problems when assumptions are made in general, especially when you aren't a regular member of the board.


I don't know what it means to be _"a regular member of the board."_ Are you a _"regular member of the board?"_ Am I? You've been a member since Sept 2011 and have 2,682 posts. I've been a member since Sept 2006 and have 1,029 posts. Is there some join date or number of posts before one is _"a regular member?"_ 

For someone who told us to _"Move on, people,"_ you seem to be doing nothing of the kind. This post is nothing but more arguing about arguing.


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## LouCastle

boomer11 said:


> Btw Lou must've been president of debate club in school. I'd hate to get in an argument over anything with him.


Nope. I didn't come by my interest in debating until much later. Now, it's a function of having too much spare time. LOL.


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## LouCastle

Sri said:


> I am curious about this study.
> 
> Are Shock Collars Painful or Just Annoying to Dogs? A 2004 Study Reveals Some Answers | Animal Behavior and Medicine Blog | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS
> 
> What could have gone wrong?


This is an example of the worst sort of junk science on this topic. I've written an in-depth critique of it that you can see here. Schilder Comments. Statements from the article are in red. My responses are in black. 

The nickel version? This study is a biased, poorly researched, mockery of science that contains misinformation and a couple of outright lies. 

At the end of my critique, you'll find the complete study, rather than Ms. Yin's summary of it. 

To address the intentionally misleading title of Ms. Yin's article, "Are Shock Collars Painful or just Annoying to Dogs?" The answer should be obvious to anyone who's used an Ecollar. Yes, an Ecollar CAN BE painful to a dog. Especially when used only as a correction, one way to use an Ecollar. But it's NOT NECESSARY that pain occur when an Ecollar is used, particularly when my methods are used. Ms. Yin and the authors of the Schilder study DO NOT make any more allowance for the use of the Ecollar except for the first method that I mentioned, as a correction device when a dog does not comply with a command. That's not how I use an Ecollar and this use is growing. 

Ms. Yin seems to know little about Ecollar use, a trait that MANY anti Ecollar zealots display. 

This article was discussed in depth here a few years ago. http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...ying-dogs-new-study-reveals-some-answers.html 

A search for "Schilder" reveals at least six other threads where it's been mentioned.


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## LouCastle

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Good idea I have not done that. I notice some people lately placing the reciver behind the dogs left ear at 1 o clock. I personally always put it at 5 o clock. Which do you prefer?


It makes no difference to me for most training. Sometimes I do "point of contact" training where the placement of the box helps the dog. This is because the dog naturally wants to move away from the discomfort. For example in teaching the down, it sometimes helps to place the box at 12 o'clock, as it will tend to push the dog into the down.


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## Blanketback

"Interestingly, the results did show that 7 dogs out of 32 (22%) showed no signs of fear or pain while actually receiving the electronic collar shock which indicates that some dogs bred for high drive and to withstand the demands of the coercive-type training appear to have no pain or fear of the shock."

Are Shock Collars Painful or Just Annoying to Dogs?  A 2004 Study Reveals Some Answers | Animal Behavior and Medicine Blog | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS

Almost a quarter of the dogs showed no signs at all. So without knowing the dogs or the trainers, I'll have to assume that the training was fair, and the dogs understood. This is what I want too: to have my dog make a clear choice that isn't confusing. That's the whole point of my consideration in using this tool in the first place.


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## Cassidy's Mom

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I agree, Lou Castle really shouldn't have to put up with this though.


:thinking: Put up with what? Nobody is making him come here and post.


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## LouCastle

Cassidy's Mom said:


> :thinking: Put up with what? Nobody is making him come here and post.


Tell that to the pitbull that lives in my head! ROFL.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Gotta look at in context, what you quoted above by me was a joke in response to Sri, as no one was forcing GTF to come here and post either.

Lou, IMO, did a very good job explaining his thoughts and positions on the various articles posted here. Further he did so by discussing the substance of the topic, not the person(s) or personality. He was patient and thorough as well.

If this were a formal debate, where the discussions do not go on *Ad infinitum, *he'd be declared the winner most probably.

but this is the interwebz and it doesn't work that way....



Cassidy's Mom said:


> :thinking: Put up with what? Nobody is making him come here and post.


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