# Pedigree Opinions?



## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Line-breeding for the progency of Traumatizer Von Schraderhaus and Dizzy Start Ur Engines!

This is a litter planned for 2014. It's really sooner than I was thinking about getting a puppy, but... I've got puppy fever real bad and I'm kinda tempted. The sire belongs to a friend of my cousin's. I don't know anything about the dam, although the breeder is in NJ which is not _too_ far from me.

I note Aly vom Vordersteinwald in the sire's pedigree, which seems promising (Aly is good, right? Brings intelligence and biddability?). I also know that the sire is on the small side of standard, which I find very appealing as I like a smaller dog.

But I know absolutely nothing about how to read a pedigree and I would be grateful for more expert thoughts. It is mostly just idle curiosity, as 2014 really is too soon for me (that's hopefully going to be the year that I campaign Pongu seriously in Rally and won't have time to raise a new puppy), but... like I said, got some puppy fever real bad.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

BonJon dogs are known for their agility accomplishments. I have known Bonnie for years.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

I'm going to be curious to hear about this combo.. and biddabiltiy..

Only because I train with with a Bandit son and a Bomber son and I don't know if I'd say they were biddable.. And both can easily over stimulate.. 

Maybe because Aly is coming through in a different source???


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

G-burg said:


> Only because I train with with a Bandit son and a Bomber son and I don't know if I'd say they were biddable.. And both can easily over stimulate..


Hmm, would it be wrong of me to say "gosh, I sure hope so"? Only because it'd make it a lot easier for me to pass, and the less temptation I have to deal with right now, the better.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I'll have an honest look at it later tonight , but at first glance -- not my cup of tea -- I am real fussy on the females contribution being very strong and in this case it is not . Just because you have Aly means little . It is the over all flow and direction .


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Awesome, I would be SO grateful for your thoughts.

Honestly, even if they're not the most complimentary, I'd be grateful for that too. It would help me learn more about what I _should_ look for, and like I said, I am desperately scrounging around for reasons to not get a puppy next year. I need to hold out!


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

What do you plan on doing? Not particularly a dog for IPO sport and may be too easy stimulated for AKC sports and hard to get control....I agree with what Leesa says having seen at least one of the same dogs quite a bit...and my feelings are pretty much the same as Carmen's.....dam's lines even more important to me than sires...

Lee


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

My primary sports are competition obedience (AKC/CDSP) and Rally (mostly World Cynosport, AKC to a [much] lesser degree). My _hope_ is to be competitive at a pretty high level (I've got OTCH dreams, yes I do), so I'm looking for a dog who has the potential to go all the way. Top priorities are intelligence, biddability, love of work, and clear-headedness -- all the stuff that people talk about in the "genetic obedience" threads. I want a dog who can think and control himself under stress.

There's a possibility that I may get into club-level IPO, so I'm also looking for a dog who has the potential to do a little bit of protection work, but it's not my primary emphasis at all. However, to the extent that I'm considering it, again, clear-headedness and good self-control are key to the approaches I'd prefer to use.

Additionally I prefer smaller dogs (don't want to go much over 80 pounds if I can help it) and would like to avoid dog-aggressive dogs (I have other dogs, live in the middle of the city with loads of dogs around the neighborhood, and have to do a lot of off-leash practice in a dog park because it's the one securely fenced area I have in easy reach, so... DA brings a raft of problems that would make my life more difficult).

But I'm really truly hoping to avoid getting a new puppy for another couple of years. 2015/2016 would be much better for me. So if it seems like this litter might be a little on the hotheaded side, well, good! Shore up my failing self-control.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Ok, question. Lots of talks about bitch lines. Why are some giving more weight to bitch lines than dog? Do they not contribute equally?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Thank you ladies, I was going to comment that it wasn't to my taste, and for the same reasons Carmen stated, plus I don't think the two mesh genetically beside the dam line being weak.....but I didn't want to reinforce perceptions that I am negative Nelly.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Merciel~ 

I like both of the Bandit and Bomber sons that I train with.. I like them a lot actually.. Stable, stable temperaments and both are pretty awesome in the bite work.. One has more capping issues then the other.. But that could be coming through that ones mother line..


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I liked this whole pedigree and was thinking man what am I missing until I got to the very bottom. Not sure what the rational is to bring in the ASL.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

robk said:


> Not sure what the rational is to bring in the ASL.


I am totally _totally_ speculating, because as I've said I do not know the dam or her breeder at all... but I do know that I got the connection via the USDAA/AKC agility circuit (probably at a reasonably serious level, if they're competing with my cousin) and that, coupled with Andaka's post that the BonJon dogs are noted for agility, leads me to believe that the dam line is probably a refinement of AKC dogs specializing in agility. These obviously aren't "show" ASLs, since they have no conformation titles and their performance titles are skewed heavily toward agility.

In that case I imagine the goal was probably to bring in WL dogs for athleticism and sportiness and the other qualities you'd want in good agility dogs. But the starting point was probably AKC dogs picked for agility potential, not WL to begin with.

It's interesting to me because it seems to be trying to bring back together two lines of dogs that I don't see joined very often in the other pedigrees people post. I've seen purposeful, thought-out WL/SL crosses sometimes, but only ever with German showlines, never AKC lines.

I think I've been successfully talked out of putting my name up for the litter -- mostly because the timing's not good and I really do need to wait at least another year or two, but also because it sounds like maybe this litter isn't quite what I'm looking for -- but I'm definitely going to try to keep in touch with the sire's owner and find out how the pups turn out. I'm honestly really curious now!


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

From what I know of the mother's mother, she is an extremely talented agility dog with high drives and high trainability. The sire is also competing in agility as well as schutzhund. If my focus was on a top performing agility dog, I'd take a good look at this litter. 

It wouldn't be my pick for breeding or for schutzhund, although I bet the puppies could get titled pretty easily.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I agree with Christine. The American lines on the dam's side are full of very successful agility dogs. This breeding would not be my choice for what *I* want in a dog in terms of the temperament or a pedigree suitable with moving forward for breeding. But they could be very successful in a variety of AKC type venues, especially agility.

ETA: Marissa, the owner of "Tang" and the breeder of the dam of this litter is a member here, though she doesn't visit often.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Thank you both for your opinions! 

The more I look into the dam and her mother, the more tempted I get. Also, I just realized that I know the owner of one of the dam's siblings and have actually met that dog, although at the time of course I had no idea about any possible connection. So I keep vacillating back and forth, all "well agility MIGHT be fun, why _not_ get a dog who can rock out on the course?" and then "yeah but 2014 is way too soon."

Luckily Pongu's broken dumbbell retrieve is showing signs of coming back together, so I should be able to distract myself with delusions of putting a CDSP UD on him in a couple of years, and that ought to help me keep to the original timeline.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Oh, I remember who that female is now. I remember seeing a video of her on this forum. She was very fast.


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## TwoBigEars (May 11, 2013)

I realize this thread is a bit old, but I just came across it today and I'm on the list for a puppy from this litter. I'm looking for a good agility prospect out of it with a confident, stable temperament. But I see comments about over-stimulation. Anyone care to elaborate? I have a GSD currently who is easily over-stimulated in the agility environment and that's not something I care to have in another dog.


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## gsdmom1 (Oct 13, 2003)

Hi everyone...I am the owner and breeder of this litter and would be happy to answer any questions!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Merciel visit these discussions .

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/bloodlines-pedigrees/163224-help-tangs-pedigree-please.html

and http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/agility/330066-calling-marisa-wheres-tang.html

The "Tangy" being discussed would be the planned pups maternal grandmother Bonjon Dizzy Gin Fiz Dschungel - German Shepherd Dog

You have an invitation to speak with her (Tangy's) owner , I would take her up on that .

Maybe these discussions will help you make an educated decision - puppy fever put aside.

The dog had the speed because she has good conformation and can open up and cover ground without restrictions. She enjoys it also.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Thanks for finding those threads! I hadn't seen the first one. It's an interesting discussion for sure. 

And Marisa, thanks for stopping by!

Ultimately I was able to stomp down my puppy fever. 2014 is just too early for me -- I'm not in a position to add a new dog this year, and I don't think I have the skills to do justice to Imaginary Future Puppy yet anyhow.

But boy, I would be tempted otherwise.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Immune-Mediated Polyarthritis in Dogs


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

so on reading every apparently it was not Immune Mediated Polyarthritis -- but an injury. Check into that.

If that was the case I would fire the vet who thinks zebras without ruling out horses first.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Too bad they bred akc dogs into the females bottom half. Id be worried about that. Hopefully they are far enough back. I really like the look of Bandit in protection. Also Ufo. Its a weird mix..hard and. aggressive then soft like butter. Wonder why they did it? Im clearly missing something.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I've been a member of this forum for a LONG time now; I'm well aware of the bias towards working line dogs, so I'm not so shocked about some of the comments on Rev's pedigree. That said, I think Chris Wild's statement should be reiterated. The dam's pedigree is FULL of very, very successful agility dogs. I've seen many WL breeders _claim_ that their dogs "could do it" but have always found those dogs flat, too thinking, just not inspiring. In fact, I've watched video of Tang kicking most of those dogs' butts!!

The dam in this pedigree brings some serious hope to those of us still wondering if the GSD can ever really be competitive in agility. Call this a "purpose-bred" or "sport bred" litter, call it what you will... what I see is major agility potential, strong even temperaments, nice conformations, awesome working ability, and most certainly not least-- COMPACT sizes. 

I, for one, am SO excited about this litter and hope my placement on the wait list isn't too high. These will be incredible dogs for agility-minded folks. Let the races begin!!


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I think the fears here are that bringing in a dog whose male sides on both sides are known to be either extreme drive or too easy to overstimulate (or in some cases, the dog self stimulates) will end up making dogs who will have the ability to do agility - but that they will be too hard to control....thus - to get control, you can get the 'flatness' ....

Personally - I wouldn't mix Ufo with Bandit/Bomber.....and I have an Ufo daughter....

I have one full working line doing agility and is she anything but flat, and is very successful, alas her owner always seems to have 4-6 dogs in training at the same time, and so has to space/spread her time, entries & money and no one advances through titles as quickly.

Lee


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

wildo said:


> I've been a member of this forum for a LONG time now; I'm well aware of the bias towards working line dogs, so I'm not so shocked about some of the comments on Rev's pedigree. That said, I think Chris Wild's statement should be reiterated. The dam's pedigree is FULL of very, very successful agility dogs. I've seen many WL breeders _claim_ that their dogs "could do it" but have always found those dogs flat, too thinking, just not inspiring. In fact, I've watched video of Tang kicking most of those dogs' butts!!
> 
> The dam in this pedigree brings some serious hope to those of us still wondering if the GSD can ever really be competitive in agility. Call this a "purpose-bred" or "sport bred" litter, call it what you will... what I see is major agility potential, strong even temperaments, nice conformations, awesome working ability, and most certainly not least-- COMPACT sizes.
> 
> I, for one, am SO excited about this litter and hope my placement on the wait list isn't too high. These will be incredible dogs for agility-minded folks. Let the races begin!!


There is a lot of aggression in some of those dogs mix in AKC nerves and thats where I would worry. I had a working show mix where all the aggression and suspicion mixed with a poor nervebase...it wasnt fun. 
I think you will likely get dogs all over the spectrum and I hope for your sake you get a good one. Just because mom does agility well doesnt equate to the pups doing it well. Other wise finding the next ipo world champ would be a lot easier.
There arent very many WL gsds in agility so I wouldnt be to quick to say most of them suck. Look for small dogs 50lbs with lots of drive I have seen a few around..without akc dogs in the ped. If I was truly serious about agility I would get a Mal. All jmo im no ped expert.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

wildo , it's not about the female , it is about the combination. 

You can not put dogs together because they are "handsome" . They bring a behaviourial legacy . 

"too thinking" -- not possible , the GSD is supposed to be a thinking breed


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

carmspack said:


> wildo , it's not about the female , it is about the combination.
> 
> You can not put dogs together because they are "handsome" . They bring a behaviourial legacy .
> 
> "too thinking" -- not possible , the GSD is supposed to be a thinking breed


 
Hence Mal or BC..

I would insist on picking my own pup and I would test hard if I was getting from this litter.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

carmspack said:


> "too thinking" -- not possible , the GSD is supposed to be a thinking breed


That's definitely true. And, for sure, we want a dog to think in agility- to find its own line, to contemplate the next move. But what I see in many of the WL agility videos is a dog that is trotting through the course. I see dogs that seemingly have to put SO MUCH thought into the next move that they can't get themselves into a sprint. This is _not_ what I see in Rev, in Tang, or in one other non-related dog (Suka v Sapphire Moon). These dogs are clearly able to process the game at very high speed. They have brains that can work quickly, and it shows on the agility field. This is what I mean when I say "too thinking," or- too thoughtful. I definitely agree that the GSD is a thinking dog- and that's good! I just want them to be able to think quickly- and react. 

Back in the day I used to race in slalom skateboarding (weave in and out of the cones one a skateboard going downhill). It was often said that success in slalom skateboarding is the result of being able to process the cones coming at you at high speed. I was not ever able to process the cones quickly enough, and was not good at the sport. I think it's a decent analogy to agility. Yes, all dogs- and certainly all WL GSDs can be good at agility. But to be *great* at agility- we need a dog whose brain works _fast._ Rev has this trait. Tang absolutely has this trait. You can see it in their heads/eyes/expression when their running the course. They are always looking for the next obstacle. Always saying "Yeah, yeah- I've got this jump- what's next? What's three obstacles from now? Give me info and I'll give you speed!!"




Blitzkrieg1 said:


> If I was truly serious about agility I would get a Mal.


I tried that.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I think a small WL bitch could be quite successful in the agility ring. My little girl is extremely agile and will give a lot of dogs a run for their money once I start doing agility with her.

A male, although bigger, would also be successful because people that don’t get agility forget about the fact that shepherds run in a different jump height than mals and border collies or any of the smaller breeds that are known to be agility stars. So if you want to go to nationals, a shepherd would not be a bad choice because mine jumps in 24” and rarely has a lot of competition and that competition is generally much larger and slower dogs.

I think when you see a dog trotting or going slower its just due to lack of training or experience in the ring. The more a dog does it, the faster it will get. I saw this with my boy. At first it was very thought out, but the more he did it, the more he was able to not think and just go...like many dogs with weave poles...the more they do it, the faster they go.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

wildo -- the GSD by it's structure is supposed to be a trotting breed -- BUT when have you ever seen a GSD trot to confront the decoy ?

They sprint . And they look ahead wanting to get another opportunity to engage a decoy.

If Tang and Rev have these qualities then select a partner from a similar type of pedigree .


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

wildo said:


> I, for one, am SO excited about this litter and hope my placement on the wait list isn't too high.


Ooh, you're getting one of these pups? Awesome! Can't wait to follow along vicariously for the ride!


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Merciel said:


> Ooh, you're getting one of these pups? Awesome! Can't wait to follow along vicariously for the ride!


Well, I'm on the list. We'll see if there are enough pups to reach my position on the list.  :wub:


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

wildo said:


> I tried that.


 Hehe. 

I think there's a reason there aren't more Mals in the agility ring. 



martemchik said:


> A male, although bigger, would also be successful because people that don’t get agility forget about the fact that shepherds run in a different jump height than mals and border collies or any of the smaller breeds that are known to be agility stars. So if you want to go to nationals, a shepherd would not be a bad choice because mine jumps in 24” and rarely has a lot of competition and that competition is generally much larger and slower dogs.
> 
> I think when you see a dog trotting or going slower its just due to lack of training or experience in the ring. The more a dog does it, the faster it will get. I saw this with my boy. At first it was very thought out, but the more he did it, the more he was able to not think and just go...like many dogs with weave poles...the more they do it, the faster they go.


 Keep in mind, many BCs and probably many Mals (I don't see a lot in the agility ring around here) DO measure at 24" or choose to jump that height. I have a friend with an AWESOME young BC who rocks 24" jump height. When I went to BC nats last year, there were a good 10-20 dogs in the 24" height division. By The comparison between my fiancé's Mal and my Border collie (who measured in 1/4" below 20") is very significant- I wouldn't be surprised if he jumped 24", either. 

I don't think you should accept a slower/bigger dog as an agility prospect just because it's going to be successful in it's own jump height. I love that my fiancé's GSD can actually compete with the smaller border collies in points and time, even though they are in a different jump height. And she's a veteran! 

I do see handfuls of dogs at every trial that do not have the drive and desire to do it, that may have the drive and desire to do something else - GSDs, Border collies, doesn't matter the breed - and many of them have been doing it a long time - like all of the dogs at nationals last weekend that were being clapped around a course for 5 minutes before completing it. It is rarely due to inexperience or lack of training. (though one could argue that maybe training methods/engagement could change their drive a bit)

I know Frag isn't very competitive in agility, but can lure course and dock dive like a boss.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

DJEtzel said:


> Hehe.
> 
> I think there's a reason there aren't more Mals in the agility ring.


I have to agree. While I think that a Mal *can* be extremely competitive in agility, I really do think there's a reason we don't tend to see a lot of them. As I said earlier, we do want a thinking dog in agility. The Mals tend to react and then think. When Jinks gets high in drive and is _really_ running fast through a small agility sequence, he often forgets to jump and will just plow through the bars. Yes, he's a very green dog, and yes, I think he'll come along nicely with more time and training- but there probably is a reason we don't see a lot of Mals in the agility ring. I still have high hopes for Jinks in agility, but even the little I've worked with him has changed my opinion about Mals in agility.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Yeah I get what you're saying DJ...I just hate seeing people that want to "excel" and compete at a super high level so they switch breeds just for that purpose. I think if you love a breed of dog, stick with it, don't just get a border and throw your other dog on the back burner. There's nothing wrong with running different breeds in agility.

I also don't see people that are highly competitive, moving up in jump height. It does slow your dog down, and it is a higher risk. I see way more people choosing to go the preferred route than the lets jump higher route. If your goal is a Mach...you should just jump your dog's height. I know they're capable...but its still probably done very rarely.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

DJEtzel said:


> Keep in mind, many BCs and probably many Mals (I don't see a lot in the agility ring around here) DO measure at 24" or choose to jump that height. I have a friend with an AWESOME young BC who rocks 24" jump height. When I went to BC nats last year, there were a good 10-20 dogs in the 24" height division. By The comparison between my fiancé's Mal and my Border collie (who measured in 1/4" below 20") is very significant- I wouldn't be surprised if he jumped 24", either.


Yes- MANY Border Collies are jumping 24" because many of them jump 26" in the more competitive USDAA venue. I do think it's true, however, that at 24" in AKC, CPE, and probably NADAC venues, you are less likely to be competing against the BC- especially as a veteran.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

martemchik said:


> Yeah I get what you're saying DJ...I just hate seeing people that want to "excel" and compete at a super high level so they switch breeds just for that purpose. I think if you love a breed of dog, stick with it, don't just get a border and throw your other dog on the back burner. There's nothing wrong with running different breeds in agility.


One thing for me, personally, I feel I've been pretty clear that I want to do agility with a non-BC. For me, I thrive on the challenge of beating the BCs at their own game. So yes- I agree with you on this point! And that's one more reason I'm in love with this breeding. PROVEN agility dogs, generations of more compact dogs (on both sides), plenty of drive- and even some added drive coming in from Trauma, and great stability and temperament. Here I can stay with GSDs (which I really do love) and still get the little pocket rocket I've been looking for (hopefully).


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

what do you mean by " generations of more compact dogs (on both sides)"


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

carmspack said:


> what do you mean by " generations of more compact dogs (on both sides)"


Rev and Tang are both really small. I believe Rev measures in at 21 inches. Trauma is also on the smaller side for a male- a nice compact 24 inches- and not heavy either- in the 60s if I recall correctly. Christina had told me that Trauma's lines also have a few generations of smaller dogs (though I don't remember the names). I like the GSD on the smaller end of the standard, though I understand why police forces, for example, may prefer them on the larger end of the spectrum.


*[EDIT]-* I believe it was Nike (SG Aceofnike van het Bleekhof) that was small and produced even smaller dogs.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

wildo said:


> Rev and Tang are both really small. I believe Rev measures in at 21 inches. Trauma is also on the smaller side for a male- a nice compact 24 inches- and not heavy either- in the 60s if I recall correctly. Christina had told me that Trauma's lines also have a few generations of smaller dogs (though I don't remember the names). I like the GSD on the smaller end of the standard, though I understand why police forces, for example, may prefer them on the larger end of the spectrum.
> 
> 
> *[EDIT]-* I believe it was Nike (SG Aceofnike van het Bleekhof) that was small and produced even smaller dogs.


*[EDITx2]-* Plus, with Trauma being 4-5 on Umsa vom Bungalow- we'll get a strong representation of the Minna lines, which were a strong representation of foundation Thuringian lines- which bring bountiful energy to the picture. That sounds great in an agility dog and should add some pep to what Rev is showing, and what Tang has produced.
*[EDITx3]-* Opps, Nike was 4-5 on Umsa, not Trauma. But Nike is Trauma's father, so that lineage is still there...


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

so they are below standard size .
The curious thing is the drop in size when Jumpin Jesse has an American show line background where the dogs (in this pedigree) are large framed , stretched , and very angulated in the rear.


http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=516344-bonjons-joyful-jumpin-jesse 


LE do not favour larger dogs -- medium sized but strong and well muscled.

Standard size for female 22 to 24 inches , standard size for males 24 to 26 .


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

...Then they're below standard (barely). I'm ok with that. My Mal/GSD mix High Jinks is measuring in at around 21 inches right now and I'd be lying if I said I wasn't finding his size to be so much nicer overall than Pimg's (25.5"). The more compact body size just makes everything in life easier. Smaller crates needed, easier on his own body, fits on my bed better, less tail action knocking things over... LOL! I just prefer a more compact frame.

Regarding the Bonjon dogs- it's my understanding that the lady who started Bonjon (her name slips my memory- I think she's from Florida) did so in order to breed purpose driven agility GSDs. I might be wrong on that, but that's my understanding. So that would explain the drop in size.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I don’t know anything about the pedigree, I just don’t like people saying “If you want to do agility…get a BC.” It’s like…who cares what breed you do agility with? It’s possible to make a fairly high level of competition with many of the working type dogs.

I can’t say I agree with “breeding for sport X” in any breed. So I don’t like that the focus does seem to be on creating some sort of smallish GSD that can compete in agility…but it doesn’t happen often and at least the breeder has a goal and wants the dogs to do some sort of sport.

I love smaller females…50-60 lbs. But a male…just not that impressive when they’re that small (no offense to someone that has one that big). Love the males that are 80-85lbs, right within the standard, and are able to hit like tanks. In all sports there seems to be a “perfect size” and in agility from what I’ve seen it is that 40-60 lbs range. In IPO, the GSD standard seems to set a good working weight and size.

I find your observations about Mals interesting. I just think there aren’t that many of them period. Those that know what they are, are probably somehow connected to the IPO world and are doing something like that. And the people that are serious about agility…they’re probably going to have BCs. The “weekend warrior” type of person, is going to need a solid pet first as they live with them the days they’re not doing agility, so a Mal might just not be what they’re looking for.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

martemchik said:


> Yeah I get what you're saying DJ...I just hate seeing people that want to "excel" and compete at a super high level so they switch breeds just for that purpose. I think if you love a breed of dog, stick with it, don't just get a border and throw your other dog on the back burner. There's nothing wrong with running different breeds in agility.
> 
> I also don't see people that are highly competitive, moving up in jump height. It does slow your dog down, and it is a higher risk. I see way more people choosing to go the preferred route than the lets jump higher route. If your goal is a Mach...you should just jump your dog's height. I know they're capable...but its still probably done very rarely.


Oh I don't disagree. I just think it is silly if you want to compete competitively to settle for any breeding. I'd be looking at a breeding that was going to produce great agility dogs, like Wildo is doing. 

I wanted a Border Collie first a foremost. I was into agility a little bit, but not much. I did go with a line known for good agility dogs so that we could compete. 

Now I have a GSD that I think will do pretty well in agility, as well, though I didn't purchase him for that. 

Personally, if I had a slow/lackadaisy driveless dog for the sport, I would be getting a new dog if I really wanted to do agility. It's not fun for me, and it's obviously not fun for them if they don't really want to do it. 

Typically people that move up in jump heights do it for a competitive reason - the dog is not keeping it's head on straight and knocking bars, barking too much, not collecting, etc. or they are jumping higher in another venue already.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I want to see more Dalmatians in agility, dock diving and flyball as well.

I am currently trying to tempt DJEtzel into handling my Dal.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

LaRen616 said:


> I want to see more Dalmatians in agility, dock diving and flyball as well.
> 
> I am currently trying to tempt DJEtzel into handling my Dal.


I am currently trying to tempt LaRen616 into moving to Indianapolis so that I can handle her Dal.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> Oh I don't disagree. I just think it is silly if you want to compete competitively to settle for any breeding. I'd be looking at a breeding that was going to produce great agility dogs, like Wildo is doing.


Well its one thing to look for a certain breeding, its another thing to completely switch to a different breed. I think people forget that you have to live with this dog the other 6 days of the week, and each breed comes with its own difficulties and if someone loves a breed, wants to get a pedigree that supports their sport its fine, I just don't like the people telling wildo to change breeds lol.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> I am currently trying to tempt LaRen616 into moving to Indianapolis so that I can handle her Dal.


We will only be 4 hours apart. We can make the drive! :laugh:


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

martemchik said:


> Well its one thing to look for a certain breeding, its another thing to completely switch to a different breed. I think people forget that you have to live with this dog the other 6 days of the week, and each breed comes with its own difficulties and *if someone loves a breed, wants to get a pedigree that supports their sport its fine, I just don't like the people telling wildo to change breeds lol.*


:thumbup:


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

martemchik said:


> Well its one thing to look for a certain breeding, its another thing to completely switch to a different breed. I think people forget that you have to live with this dog the other 6 days of the week, and each breed comes with its own difficulties and if someone loves a breed, wants to get a pedigree that supports their sport its fine, I just don't like the people telling wildo to change breeds lol.


Agreed!! And just one more reason I don't have a BC right now. The funny thing is that I was telling a non-GSD person about Tang a few months ago. I had said something like "I'd take a tang daughter/grand daughter any day." Literally 20 mins later, I was made aware of THIS breeding. LOL! True story!! AND I have plenty of friends who have met Trauma in person, and have worked him in person. I know he's a great, solid dog with a temperament that I would enjoy living with!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Wildo said " I think she's from Florida) did so in order to breed purpose driven agility GSDs. I might be wrong on that, but that's my understanding. So that would explain the drop in size. "

It doesn't explain the drop in size though. Not from the previous genetic pattern . It may have happened and then capitalized , but I can't see the design for this.

If the female line had stayed within the same formula which appeared to be a mix of ASL and GSL's then there would have been logic , but to introduce the potential sire portion is where the problem is - from a pedigree study standpoint. You have to know what else they bring to the table , not just the superficial 'handsome guy' .


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I would like to go back to this though- especially as this is the pedigree sub-forum:



wildo said:


> *[EDITx2]-* Plus, with Trauma being 4-5 on Umsa vom Bungalow- we'll get a strong representation of the Minna lines, which were a strong representation of foundation Thuringian lines- which bring bountiful energy to the picture. That sounds great in an agility dog and should add some pep to what Rev is showing, and what Tang has produced.
> *[EDITx3]-* Opps, Nike was 4-5 on Umsa, not Trauma. But Nike is Trauma's father, so that lineage is still there...


One thing I've tried to follow (with not much success, as I'm not a pedigree guru!) is WHY dogs that I like in agility run agility a certain way. Yes, training systems and owners may play a large role. However, I do wonder if the WL dogs that just don't "do it" for me may be more *Wurttember*-centric, while the ones that I like may be more *Thuringian*-centric. It's my understanding that the Thuringian foundation is where the energy and sharpness comes from in the GSD. When I say a lot of WL GSDs look "flat" running agility, I suppose what I'm really saying is that I don't think they look _sharp_. Tang, and definitely Suka v Sapphire Moon have that "sharpness" to them and I like it. When those dogs go onto an agility field, it's as if they do so arrogantly. They _know_ they can handle it. They have that _edge_ to them... I like it! It's the more, for lack of a better term, "balanced" GSD that lacks that edginess on the agility field that I just don't like. The dog doesn't appear to care whether it does well or not- goes fast or not. It's what I'm calling "flat." Now again- I'm no pedigree expert by ANY stretch of the imagination, and I don't fully understand the foundation lines as much as I should. But I think it's the Thuringian "sharpness" that I really like in a small, fast, compact, agility dog.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

wildo said:


> Rev and Tang are both really small. I believe Rev measures in at 21 inches. Trauma is also on the smaller side for a male- a nice compact 24 inches- and not heavy either- in the 60s if I recall correctly. Christina had told me that Trauma's lines also have a few generations of smaller dogs (though I don't remember the names). I like the GSD on the smaller end of the standard, though I understand why police forces, for example, may prefer them on the larger end of the spectrum.


Yep, that plus the expected drive level was what initially attracted me to this pairing.

I also strongly prefer a smaller dog (my sweet spot is about 65-70 pounds, not that easy to find in males) and obviously my primary emphasis right now is on AKC-type sports. (I want my OTCH dog!!)

...buuuuttt I can only have two dogs and Crooky hasn't been eaten by a bear yet, so I am just going to have to ogle other people's puppy pictures and pine.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Opps- forgive the typo. It was "Suka v Sapphire *Mountain*" that I was referencing. This dog has an "edginess" that I think both Rev and Tang also possess. This dog means business on the agility field- just like Rev and especially Tang.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

wildo -- But I think it's the Thuringian "sharpness" that I really like in a small, fast, compact, agility dog. --- 

mental fast, physical fast, REACTIVE --- 

what you showed in the Suka video we saw at our IPO Regionals trial ! 

this Suka is "leaking" all over the place --- noisy , needs to cap -- hectic, frantic --- Might have use in agility , but where else ?

balance in breeding always important

without balance you have screwy dogs . Dogs with shot immune systems. Dogs that self traumatize when there is not an outlet for them.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

bring in more thuringian then there already is and you have dogs not capable of handling stress --

I see the above dog as being stressed.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Lol there are mals and there are mals..you have to know where to go just like GSDs. Id be looking at FR lines from certain kennels. Small, lots of drive and fairly handler sensitive. 
Not everyone can drive a ferrari..probably why there arent very many Mals doing it yet. Got to make sure you dont end up with a nervy, drivey dog that looses its mind at the slightest stimulation. I would avoid any breeder purpose breeding Mals for agility.
That act in and of itself shows a complete lack of understanding when it comes to the bloodlines and what works with what. 
Oohh Buddy runs a course super fast lets put him to Daisy who does the same thing and we will get superfast agility dogs!..lol. I know this happens..aame with flyball.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

carmspack said:


> bring in more thuringian then there already is and you have dogs not capable of handling stress --
> 
> I see the above dog as being stressed.


So as to not discount your knowledge on GSDs, I won't respond with "No way! You're crazy!" and instead ask what makes you say that the dog is stressed?


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## gsdmom1 (Oct 13, 2003)

WOW...I cannot believe my breeding has caused such a discussion! COOL!
OK....let's start with size: 
Tang's mother and father were both average. Her aunt (father's sister) was on the smaller side for a female (just under 22 inches) and had INCREDIBLE drive for agility. She was unfortunately hit by a car which is why she as never bred. Tang is the smallest of her litter at exactly 22 inches. Her brothers and sisters are all average. Drive and temperament:
Tang has the most drive of the litter and did as a puppy. She is an anomaly. I don't know why she is the way she is. I can only thank GOD I got her. She has an off switch, she is kind to all other dogs and LOVES puppies. She is fearless and will defend me if I need her too, (This was tested out running together one day) and she is completely attached to me. My husband cannot even hold her.
IMPA and Injury:
Unfortunately it was an injury that triggered her IMPA and then the IMPA took over. http://www.acvim.org/PetOwners/AnimalEducation/FactSheets/SmallAnimalInternalMedicine/ImmuneMediatedPolyarthritisinDogs.aspx
This does not seem to be a genetic disease, something that is triggered by something else and only 50% of dogs recover. It took many thousands of dollars but Tang is RECOVERED. She got a QQ in agility 3 weeks ago. She isn't as fast as she was at 2 but she is going to be 9 and she is still putting in some impressive times and a MACh will happen for her. 
breeding to Bandit:
There is some fear aggression behind Tang. Her father had it and her brother has it. I wanted to pick a dog with the most solid temperament I could and that complimented tang's drive. Bandit was that dog. I wanted a smaller male. That would have been ideal but Bandit was the right dog so I had to look past his size. (He is NOT HUGE by any means, but certainly not small). His temperament blew me away. He covered my face in kisses and I was able to put my arms around him, over him and he was just rock solid. He loves kids. He is structurally sound and his CAN WORK. Molly, his owner, is am amazing resource and we really talked about what I wanted in my line and she even told me which dogs in her kennel would work and which wouldn't. I picked Bandit. Funny, 6mos after, before I even did the breeding I started to hear about sport homes using him and even met puppies. I was thrilled. I knew he was the right dog for her. AND HE WAS. I have 5 girls out of the litter. All are titled and all can work. Some have more edge then others. Bella (bi black) is doing agility, obedience and Schutzhund. She is amazing to watch. She has the most drive and the most nerve out of the whole litter. She also has a great temperament and work ethic. I was asked by my agent for a GSD sho would bark on command for a tv show. My dogs aren't 100% reliable but Bella is being trained for it in IPO. SO, I asked her owner to borrow her for the day. SHE WAS AMAZING. Played with the actors on camera, barked on command, even let us put fake blood on her to be mock shot. 
The puppy I kept, is Rev. She is a little less driven then Bella but the most athletic out of the group. And yes, the smallest. I did not pick her for that, infact, she was not the smallest as a baby. (All the girls are between 22-23 inches. Rev is 21 1/2). Even though Bandit is large and Tang is right at the standard I really got on the smaller side girls! Goes to show you how much influence the Dam does have.
Rev is very affectionate, she loves to tug and loves to play. She is an avid swimmer and a great all around dog. Her athleticism is unmatched. The other girls, Tonic is competitive in rally, Vega also doing agility but has EPI (another story), and Spark who is currently the #1 GSD in the country with 6 Machs!
Trauma:
Christine and I talked extensively about what Trauma brings to the table and we felt this would be a good match for Rev. I also consulted Molly on this breeding and she felt this was a good compliment. Trauma is stable and loving. he also loves kids and other dogs. He is just under 24 inches an has drive with an off switch. The pedigrees can be argued any way you want but the bottom line is that I feel this is the best choice for my dog.
Can there be health problems? YES. EPi is in there. IMPA is there (even though they say it is not genetic, it can happen). I can say Rev is negative for DM and Trauma is a carrier so we cannot produce affected dogs. Both dogs have good hips (trauma is good, Rev's mom is excellent and Rev prelimed good to excellent. her perm xray is this Saturday). Any breeding is a crap shoot so to say when it comes to health and temperament. But, I do not lie, and I don't hide things. This is there and I say it. I am being responsible and breeding the best of what I have. If we spayed and neutered every dog related to a dog that has something wrong, we would have NO DOGS! That is selective breeding. You breed the best of what is there and go.
Stress:
OK, when it comes to agility GSDs HATE TO BE wrong. If you even make a face or shrug you can ruin a GSD in agility. Most slow down because they want to be right and will only run as fast as their owner. This is very difficult to train when you are both learning as a team. That is why I think many GSDs aren't fast in agility. I got lucky....I had Draven who was the most awesome partner to learn with (who is a 2 time national champion, 3 time high scoring and 6 time high scoring rescue! and is still going at nearly 15!) Then Tangy who speaks for herself and now Rev! 
Again, I would be happy to answer ANY QUESTIONS!
Here i one of Rev's runs last year (sorry, I have not been diligent with taping her this year!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcKCd6Ympf4
my fav video of all time....Tangy winning the GSDCA nationals top 20 event:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLSvKXfMTdw
Tang's daughter Bella (rev's sis)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvqY8Dp1E1A
Trauma (Rev's chosen sire to her litter)
http://vimeo.com/91419175
and Trauma doing agility!
http://vimeo.com/54681509


ok....back to work!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I've trained with a lot of other GSD people who do agility as one of their things and most of the dogs just don't have the drive. It's a combination of them just not having it period and the owners prioritizing certain behaviors above all else and squashing out what little drive the dogs may have had. Often when we have people visit flyball training to try it out they will walk in with their dog on a lead, stand about 4 feet from the lane where our team dogs are racing (running back and forth full speed with people running and screaming, toys being tossed or swung around) and then they are verbally and physically correcting their dogs ever half a second for whining or lunging towards a toy being whipped around. I'm still amazed at how many people just don't get it, these are people who have owned GSDs and trained for a long time, even earned CATCH titles and such. Anyway, I know this has nothing to do with the pedigree, but as someone who's basically done the gamut of dog sports training, that's just a pattern I've noticed from the GSD people doing AKC and CPE agility (can't comment on the more competitive venues, I'm guessing it's better since these dogs are obviously much faster and more successful). I'm also saying this as someone who tried and tried to do agility with one of those lower drive GSDs that just could *not* be wrong on a course. She had amazing potential based on her size, physique, and pedigree but was definitely one of the "trotters" on the course, very correct and under time at lower levels but that spark was just not there.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

And now I'm even more excited about this litter. Great update, Marisa!!


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## gsdmom1 (Oct 13, 2003)

Ha Willy! And no worries...you are up there on the list. I am fairly confident you WILL get your puppy and I am sure the one you want!


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

gsdmom1 said:


> Ha Willy! And no worries...you are up there on the list. I am fairly confident you WILL get your puppy and I am sure the one you want!





wildo said:


> And now I'm even more excited about this litter. Great update, Marisa!!



:wub:


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

this would worry me "Unfortunately it was an injury that triggered her IMPA and then the IMPA took over. http://www.acvim.org/PetOwners/AnimalEducation/FactSheets/SmallAnimalInternalMedicine/ImmuneMediatedPolyarthritisinDogs.aspx
This does not seem to be a genetic disease, something that is triggered by something else and only 50% of dogs recover. It took many thousands of dollars but Tang is RECOVERED."

The GSD needs to be improved overall in the immune part of health. 

this would worry me "There is some fear aggression behind Tang. Her father had it and her brother has it." 

That is close . That is what people were saying , people very conversant in the working lines , that the female , by pedigree , does not have the nerve base to support the aggression that you are bringing in from the male , and even there , there is a combination that is not so desireable.

I am of the school that there should be balance in breeding . Not specialized breeding , especially breeding which takes the breed away from the "ideal" .

I won't be saying more on this topic.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

The ideal is certainly subjective. Even the breed standard can't cover every basis of what "the ideal" is... I currently know of a WL/WGSL cross that is impressing the h-e-double hockey sticks out of me. The fact is- each of us has an idea of what we're looking for in a dog, what we want to accomplish with the dog, and what breeding combination could help us get there. Not that I'm necessarily calling THIS breeding a sport breeding, but I used to think pretty negatively about the idea of "sport bred dogs." Then I met some... Like I said, we all have our own perspective of what we want in a dog. What fires me up and makes me drool over a dog is certainly not the same as what fires Carmen up and makes her drool over a dog. Not anything wrong with that. I guarantee we BOTH have lots of fun with the different dogs we end up with!


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

carmspack said:


> I am of the school that there should be balance in breeding . Not specialized breeding , especially breeding which takes the breed away from the "ideal" .


"The ideal" or _your_ ideal?

You know with Shepherds that there are 45 different ideals out there, I don't think it's appropriate to flame a breeding because it's not what you would do. You noted that it wasn't your favorite, already, I think that was enough.

Finding a breeder this transparent, who is willing to note what negatives her lines have produced or been afflicted by, is almost impossible. After reading emails from this breeder and seeing her posts here, that, to me, is invaluable. I don't believe that any lines are squeaky clean, but will most breeders note the one weird dog in their last litter that had a little bit of a fearful nature, or the sister of the dam that had seizures later in life, especially when all the other progeny are IPO3 rockstars? Not always. Not usually. It's pretty rare to find breeders that want to make sure the owner knows exactly what they are getting and/or looking at getting. 

I think this breeder was very thorough in her matches, and knows exactly what she could be getting and will probably get a lot of. It was thought out, planned, and they are healthy dogs being bred. I do not think she should be burnt on the stake JUST BECAUSE she was transparent and offered good information. 

I know tons of breeders that breed dogs with allergies, pano, that have bloated... things that may or may not be considered genetic or immune compromised issues to some people. I think a breeder like this who is being HONEST with what she is producing and has a great goal is worth her weight in gold.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Its interesting how a lot of people predicted that there were nerve issues in the females line. Low and behold there it is, close up.
Luckily its a free country and you can breed and buy what you like.

Whats shocking to me is that people still think its a good idea to breed a dog that has a fear aggression close up. Its not like there are a lack of litters available.

I guess I just dont like to gamble enough especially knowing that certain things like to skip generations.. I dont like the idea of washing pups so I try to stack the odds in my favor. jmo

Have fun with your new pup.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I'm not disagreeing on anything and I don't know about breeding. Someone said (and i read this before) that if you don't breed dogs that have relatives with problems (don't know why they must be fixed, just not bred, but whatever) then you will end up with no dogs to breed

With so many things that can go wrong with gsds it seems true. So how does a breeder choose which faults are OK to breed and which are not. 

And I can totally see how you put in all this work in a dog and it excels in something and doesn't have crippling diseases and then has something in her line and yu say, oh well, she has so much going for her. 


I'm not defending the breeding, I don't have the experience to say either way. I'm just asking. It'd be interesting to hear from Carmen even though she said she won't post here anymore. 



Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## gsdmom1 (Oct 13, 2003)

Thanks to Danielle for her comments on my honesty. I truly appreciate them and YES, I disclose everything about the lines. 
Blitzkrieg1 - (sorry, I do not know your name), There are no nerve issues in "the female" (Tang or Rev). There is fear aggression behind them. I find it interesting that you can say that about my girls without EVER meeting them or working them. If you look at their videos or them working, I can't see any nerve issues.
With that said, I al glad my breeding has gotten such interested to have so many posts. I disagree with you, but I am glad a discussion was started. I do not claim to know everything about breeding but I am doing the best of my ability to create a GSD with drive and biddability without going over the top. Oh yeah...and be sound in body and mind. 
Ultimately it is up to the puppy buyers to take a pup. I am lucky that I have awesome homes lined up. One, Wally, is going to meet Daddy Trauma soon!


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

gsdmom1 said:


> Thanks to Danielle for her comments on my honesty. I truly appreciate them and YES, I disclose everything about the lines.
> Blitzkrieg1 - (sorry, I do not know your name), There are no nerve issues in "the female" (Tang or Rev). There is fear aggression behind them. I find it interesting that you can say that about my girls without EVER meeting them or working them. If you look at their videos or them working, I can't see any nerve issues.
> With that said, I al glad my breeding has gotten such interested to have so many posts. I disagree with you, but I am glad a discussion was started. I do not claim to know everything about breeding but I am doing the best of my ability to create a GSD with drive and biddability without going over the top. Oh yeah...and be sound in body and mind.
> Ultimately it is up to the puppy buyers to take a pup. I am lucky that I have awesome homes lined up. One, Wally, is going to meet Daddy Trauma soon!


Never said the female had nerve issues, I said she had issues close behind her just as you said she did. Nothing personal I just dont like to see ASLs in a pedigree no matter what they were supposedly good at. The nerves always seem to come to the fore in the end. Its like your building a brick house and you decide to use a block of jello.

Like you said its up to buyers to choose, my comments are only oriented towards the discussion on here. I am under no delusions that this forum or my comments will impact your customer base. For the record I hope the doubters including me are wrong and the pups dont have any nerve issues.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Never said the female had nerve issues, I said she had issues close behind her just as you said she did. Nothing personal I just dont like to see ASLs in a pedigree no matter what they were supposedly good at. The nerves always seem to come to the fore in the end. Its like your building a brick house and you decide to use a block of jello.
> 
> Like you said its up to buyers to choose, my comments are only oriented towards the discussion on here. I am under no delusions that this forum or my comments will impact your customer base. For the record I hope the doubters including me are wrong and the pups dont have any nerve issues.


I think, since none of the progeny have nerve issues, and the breeder is bringing in more strong-nerved dogs (Trauma) for pairings, it is fair to say that they are aware of what is more likely to produce nervy pups and what isn't. But sometimes, you need to take that chance to bring in something that is going to freshen up the lines and bring some better traits in, long term. (agility drive) 

I have a WGSL/WL cross. Through his breeding, a lot was put into lines that needed to, and there were some risks in doing so as well. There are always risks. The fact that the breeder KNOWS what those are, and is conscious of the breeding and fixing any health/temperament issues that may crop up through better breeding is a good sign!


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

gsdmom1 said:


> One, Wally, is going to meet Daddy Trauma soon!


Wally... hahaha! That's a first. 

I am pumped to meet Trauma though! I've already started to coordinate with Christina to meet him. :toasting:


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Such a weird discussion…we’re arguing with someone that actually knows the dogs…

I think it’s weird that the dog that had fear aggression was bred. I know that they ended up with a good dog out of the pairing, but that means those genes are still in there somewhere. The current sire and dam, doesn’t sound like they have issues like that, but who knows what you’ll get in the puppies until you try.

I’m not saying anything about the dogs in question, but I want to point out that agility isn’t the best sport for evaluating a dogs nerve. I know that these dogs are national level competitors, so that kind of says they have to be decent dogs to go through all that, but I’ve known a lot of agility dogs that are amazing in the ring that have tons of issues outside of it. Dogs that don’t show a single issue when they’re running a course, but the moment you get them outside the ring they can’t handle the atmosphere around them. I’ve seen plenty of dog aggressive dogs in an agility ring that have to be corralled the moment they’ve stopped running, and everyone clears the isles for them when they’re walking back to their kennel to wait for their next run. People have flat out admitted that agility is their sport of choice because their dog can’t be in a ring with other dogs…to the point that rally was out when they still had the “honor” sign. Of course the was no way the dog would get through a long down/sit in obedience.

I’m happy that the dogs in question are at least being tested in some venue. I know many people will never be happy about dogs that aren’t tested in IPO and bred…and anytime an ASL dog is brought into the discussion it usually shouldn’t be bred period lol. Would be nice to see at least a CD or something on the dogs though, not just agility. Some sort of different venue to show that the dog has other abilities other than 30 seconds jumping and going through tunnels.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

martemchik said:


> Would be nice to see at least a CD or something on the dogs though, not just agility. Some sort of different venue to show that the dog has *other abilities other than 30 seconds jumping and going through tunnels.*


Don't you do agility too? Such a diminishing view of agility... Plus- a GOOD dog will never take 30 seconds. Come on! :dogsledding:


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

wildo said:


> Don't you do agility too? Such a diminishing view of agility... Plus- a GOOD dog will never take 30 seconds. Come on! :dogsledding:


Yeah, I do agility, which is why I felt that I "could" post that opinion. I'm not saying it doesn't show you something, but it's also a sport where nerve problems (in the sense of what a GSD should be) can be hidden. I think a venue where the dog needs to learn to "control" themselves a little bit more, and some other things are tested, is never a bad thing to see. At the end of the day, I don't believe a national level competitor in agility would have a hard time teaching a dog the things it needs to know to get a CD...so it's not a question of the handler not being able to do it (I'm assuming), so why doesn't the dog have one is a fair question IMO.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Eh- I was hoping you'd get my joke on 30 seconds being super slow... 

I can't speak for Marisa, but I can tell you for my own national champion agility dog- I hate obedience. I think it's incredibly boring. I can appreciate the work that goes into it, but I have very little desire to do it. Agility is fast, dynamic, requires you to think on your feet and work as a team. Obedience (to me) is slow, static, requires no thought (a set pattern that never changes), and (arguably) requires little teamwork. It's true- people who do obedience tell me I'm an ass and that I have no idea what I'm talking about. But you'll never convince me that obedience is a fast, dynamic, interesting sport. These attributes are the very things that attract me to dog sport. Being dynamic and making split second decisions working as a team with my dog- and accomplishing the goal of getting through the course... It's exhilarating! These are reasons I, personally, have little to no interest in a CD. Rally, on the other hand, I _might_ consider- but in reality, around here Rally is as slow and boring as competitive obedience. Pimg's retirement plan likely includes Nosework or tracking in some way...


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I know...I got your joke!

But its not about the sport being boring, its about showing another side of your dog (if you're trying to prove breedworthiness to a bunch of know-it-alls on an internet forum that is). Why is IPO considered a better test? 3 phases. So if someone is breeding a strict "agility" dog, why not show that the dog is capable of something else.

I also think if you did a little more "IPO style" obedience, which is transferring to the AKC ring lately, you'd have more fun. When you have a happy dog, willing, anticipating your every move, it's just as much fun as any agility run.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

martemchik said:


> Yeah, I do agility, which is why I felt that I "could" post that opinion.


I'm calling BS on you. You have no idea what you are talking about.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Lilie said:


> I'm calling BS on you. You have no idea what you are talking about.


Good for you. Take a card.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

martemchik said:


> Good for you. Take a card.


Neurosurgery is the medical specialty concerned with the prevention diagnosis, treatment and rehabilitaion of disorders wich affect any protion of the nervous system including the brain, spinal cord, peripheral nerves and extra-cranial cerebravascular system. 

OH LOOK! That ^^^makes me a brain surgeon! I can repost information from someone else and that makes me an expert!!!!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Lilie said:


> OH LOOK! That ^^^makes me a brain surgeon! I can repost information from someone else and that makes me an expert!!!!


What did I repost?


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

wildo said:


> Obedience (to me) is slow, static, requires no thought (a set pattern that never changes), and (arguably) requires little teamwork.


Aw, my feelings, they are crushed. *sniffle*

Obedience requires _tremendous_ teamwork. I think it is much harder to motivate a dog to stick with you through the set slow pattern of an obedience routine than the fast-paced excitement of an agility run. And the training is so complicated and so daunting that right now I go through daily bouts of "WHAT ARE WE EVEN DOING AAARRGH" self-doubt.

I get what you're saying, though. Different sports appeal to different people. Personally, I'd _love_ to do agility, but right now I don't have a dog that can do it, and even if I did, I don't have the space to train/practice the obstacles easily at home. I can't really get into any sport where I don't have at least a _chance_ of hitting the top, so that's currently a big obstacle to me getting seriously interested in agility.

As far as this particular match goes, I know Christina does IPO with Trauma and has experience in multiple dog sports with a lot of different dogs, so that was definitely a factor in my interest in the pairing. I would certainly trust her judgment about whether a pup from this litter would be able to succeed not only in agility, but also in my sports of choice.


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## gsdmom1 (Oct 13, 2003)

martemchik said:


> Such a weird discussion…we’re arguing with someone that actually knows the dogs…
> 
> I think it’s weird that the dog that had fear aggression was bred. I know that they ended up with a good dog out of the pairing, but that means those genes are still in there somewhere. The current sire and dam, doesn’t sound like they have issues like that, but who knows what you’ll get in the puppies until you try.
> .


 
OK....I did not bred a dog with fear aggression. Tang has NO fear aggression. It is behind her. I just want to point that out.

And as far as a CD goes, or any other sport. I haven't trained her for it. I have 11 dogs. 7 Japanese Chin, 3 GSDs and a sheltie. Tuesday nights I teach agility, Wed nights I am in class and Friday nights I teach Show handling. On weekends I am usually at a show or in my RV camping with the dogs OR at the beach. Oh yeah, and I have a husband. SO, I literally do not have time for another sport. Can I get a CD on my guys? Ya, I have a CD on Draven (my rescue GSD who is still going strong at 15!) and on one of my Japanese Chin. (YES, a Japanese Chin. He also has titles in rally and agility making him the most titled chin in the history of the breed. still has the title and he is 15 as well!)
I am not writing this to defend...I am writing to show you it isn't because the dogs can't do it, it is because I cannot. I would love to see my husband's face when I tell him I am now going to train for obedience. He hardly sees me as it is. BTW, I also have a full time job as a Divisional Manager of a pet fashion line. (multi million dollar business). I show the chins in conformation and agility and I also breed. Which is a whole job in itself. 
Here is my next week: I leave Monday AM for a business trip which will being me home Thursday (red eye wed night from the west coast). I will go to work a few hours and then go home, load everyone up and drive to update NY with the dogs for a conformation show Friday. Then drive across to CT for agility for 2 days and then home. I will not sleep in my bed for 1 week. And my hubby? If he doesn't come with me to the dog shows (he has to work Friday so prob not), he will not see me for a week but oh yeah, he will be taking care of the dogs.....
ok, now I am tired just reading that!


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Merciel said:


> Aw, my feelings, they are crushed. *sniffle*
> 
> *Obedience requires tremendous teamwork. I think it is much harder to motivate a dog to stick with you through the set slow pattern of an obedience routine than the fast-paced excitement of an agility run. And the training is so complicated and so daunting that right now I go through daily bouts of "WHAT ARE WE EVEN DOING AAARRGH" self-doubt.*


100% agree. Keeping a dog motivated for 5-7 minutes straight while heeling around without reward is much more difficult than most people can imagine. If it were mindless, I don't think it would take 2 years to train a dog for IPO obedience. Its _all about_ the teamwork. When you're losing points based on absolute precision, there really is nothing "mindless" about it.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

gsdmom1 said:


> OK....I did not bred a dog with fear aggression. Tang has NO fear aggression. It is behind her. I just want to point that out.
> 
> And as far as a CD goes, or any other sport. I haven't trained her for it. I have 11 dogs. 7 Japanese Chin, 3 GSDs and a sheltie. Tuesday nights I teach agility, Wed nights I am in class and Friday nights I teach Show handling. On weekends I am usually at a show or in my RV camping with the dogs OR at the beach. Oh yeah, and I have a husband. SO, I literally do not have time for another sport. Can I get a CD on my guys? Ya, I have a CD on Draven (my rescue GSD who is still going strong at 15!) and on one of my Japanese Chin. (YES, a Japanese Chin. He also has titles in rally and agility making him the most titled chin in the history of the breed. still has the title and he is 15 as well!)
> I am not writing this to defend...I am writing to show you it isn't because the dogs can't do it, it is because I cannot. I would love to see my husband's face when I tell him I am now going to train for obedience. He hardly sees me as it is. BTW, I also have a full time job as a Divisional Manager of a pet fashion line. (multi million dollar business). I show the chins in conformation and agility and I also breed. Which is a whole job in itself.
> ...


I really really don't want you to defend yourself!

I don't think either way on this litter. I was just saying that I'd prefer to see at least some sort of obedience title if a "strictly agility" dog is being bred. It's just my opinion, and it shouldn't make you think twice about breeding the dogs.

I know you didn't breed the FA dog, I just question whoever did.

And as a side note...the reasoning of "it isn't because the dogs can't do it, it is because I cannot." Meh. That's like anyone out there saying, my dog isn't X not because he can't do X, its because I can't do X. Well, then how do you know your dog can do X if you haven't tried? See my point?

Trust me, I know what a time commitment agility is and everything you do is. I'm not here to question your priorities.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

And here I thought this was a thread about a pedigree. :angryfire::thinking:


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

wildo said:


> And here I thought this was a thread about a pedigree. :angryfire::thinking:


Agree. The off topic posts have been moved to their own thread in the Training Theory and Methods forum. 

I also removed some snarking.  

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