# Visitor aggression



## turner7205 (Oct 22, 2014)

Hello, long time visitor first time poster.

Backstory. I live with my fiance and her 8 year old son and 11 year old daughter. Prior to us adopting this GSD, we had/have a pit mix of some sort. Very sweet, non aggressive dog. About 5 weeks ago, I adopted a 19month old neutered male GSD. His prior owner from what I can tell was a single lady, no other dogs. She got a new job that required her to board the GSD 3-4 times a week. After a bit, she decided it was best for the dog to send him to a nice rescue. That is where I got him. 

My GSD aka Boston, has done ok being here. On day one, he began to show signs of trying to be "dominant" over the other dog. Mounting him, controlling toys etc etc. They got into a few good scuffles, but nothing to serious. They have since moved on and get along. They play fight constantly (I know the difference!). I have done what I can do to show him I am the boss per say. I am no expert but I read as much as I could. I have been doing the "nothing is free" method, and he doesn't try and mess with me. He follows me around, seeks my attention to play etc etc. We have a ways to go as far as "bonding" goes, but we are getting there. 

Now to the bad. Last week the 11 year old was messing with him, such as chasing him around the house etc etc... I could tell he was getting scared of her. I told her she was in the wrong and moved on. Up until this point, he has never shown any aggression towards the kids. Last night when I was at work, I learned that Boston made a sneak attack and bit the 11 year old in the butt. He was removed from the situation. Today, the girl was standing near the kitchen table and Boston was loitering in the area. He snuck up behind her and bit her in the butt again. Both times, no blood or marks but it hurt her. Tonight, I brought the four of us together, and we hung out in a room together. He let the girl pet him, and I did not see any issues. I will be keeping an eye on that situation.

Next. I kept visitors away for the first few weeks just as a precaution. Shortly thereafter, Boston began to bark at people when they came into the house. He would not get to close, but would show his disapproval in his bark. He follows them around for a bit to keep an eye on them. I think total, we have had three visitors he has been exposed to. Tonight we had an incident. My fiances niece (7 years old) came over. Boston began to bark at her, and eventually moved on. Later on she was standing in the hallway talking to someone. Boston began to bark at her, and someone verbally corrected him so he stopped. She began to walk down the hallway, and he trotted behind her and bit/nipped her in the butt. Left a mark, but no blood. I removed him from the situation. Gave it a few minutes, and threw on his lead and prong collar. I brought the niece back out into a common area so I could try and show him she was a good person. I had her toss down a few treats for him, and toss his ball. Of course he thought she was trying to take his ball so he tried to go after her. I had the lead so he could not get to her. I gave him a few corrections when he began to show aggression towards her. I separated them both for the remainder of the night. 

I have noticed him becoming more and more territorial if you will. He gets pissy if the other dog gets on the couch before he does. He wants to be more important than the other dog. He seems to be more confident in his dominating behaviors now that he has been here for awhile. He does mark areas still, I just have not been able to catch him in the act. He is house broken though. We are enrolled in an obedience class, but my work schedule sucks, and honestly he does not like it. We dont move around a lot and he gets bored. A good friend of mine is a K9 handler at the police department I work at, so he has been helping me with obedience stuff. The first few weeks I took him out everyday for walks and hikes. Two weeks ago I hurt my back and have not been able to get him out like I want/he needs. 

I am really starting to love this dog, but I can not have him biting and barking at people who are visiting. The kids are going to be having friends over more, holiday gatherings etc. I don't want to have to lock him in his kennel for the next 10-15 years when visitors are over. 

What do you all suggest? Does he need professional help? I don't have a lot of money, but I have to do something. I can provide more information if needed, just was not sure what was most prevalent for now. Thank you everyone.


----------



## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

OBEDIENCE TRAINING. With a qualified trainer of course. It sounds like this dog does not respect you or feel there is any need to listen. He is also bored, so he is trying to create his own job, which seems to be herding the children/trying to make strangers go away. He desperately needs EXERCISE, training, and enrichment in his life. Unless you can get him under control very quickly and manage him well, I might question whether he is the right fit for your house, especially if he is already nipping at the children. Negative reactions to children are something I DO NOT mess around with. Especially from a large, powerful dog. 

I would say that he needs to get into training, he needs to be exercised every day to wear him out, and he needs enrichment in his life - puzzles, mind games, etc. Otherwise, would think very seriously about whether his future might be better with a family more prepared to meet his specific needs.


----------



## turner7205 (Oct 22, 2014)

This is way more than him simply creating his own job. Even if he was exhausted, he would still find it in him to control who is in the house. Now, I can see the obiedience portion of this. But we are a long way away from total obdience. He does listen, but not like a dog with thousands hours of training. I don't give a command without being able to enforce it. I don't believe there is a correlation between lack of training and aggression. Even if I could get him to sit at my side on command that doesn't change the way he feels about people in the house. Now if you are suggesting that if I had total control of him and he respected me 100% that he would leave well enough alone if I said the person was ok to be in the house.


----------



## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

He's a German SHEPHERD. He is deciding that he wants the children to go somewhere and he is nipping to make them move. It's one of their most instinctual ways to move another large living thing and if he doesn't know how else to interact, then he will do what comes naturally. The flip side of this is that he doesn't have a relationship or trust with you. Because of this, he is trying to control his environment in a way that makes him most comfortable. He doesn't trust that you have control of the environment, so he is stepping in where he feels he needs to.

Proper obedience training teaches him to trust you and to look to you for guidance instead of thinking that he has to watch out for himself. Without this, he probably feels he is on his own, especially in a new environment. Largely, what this comes down to is the fact that there is a communication breakdown between you and him. He can only communicate in ways that he has learned and if you don't interpret it and understand him, there isn't much he can do besides do what comes naturally to him. Training will not only give you both a common language, it will also build his trust in you as well as be an avenue of teaching him specific manners that are expected of him, such as greeting guests calmly.

Exercise will not completely solve this issue, no, but it will help temper his energy so that there is not as much focused on trying to find things to do or being uncomfortable with guests. And puzzle games like Kongs, toy puzzles, and find it games will help him expend some mental energy and calm down.


----------



## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

turner7205 said:


> Even if I could get him to sit at my side on command that doesn't change the way he feels about people in the house.


And some solid positive reinforcement training can absolutely change the way he feels about guests in the house. If he learns that guests are a precursor to reward, then not only does it change his view of guests from negative to positive, but it also gets his mind working because he will be learning specific behaviors to practice around guests like sitting for petting, showing self-control around children, and likely calm stay behaviors if he wants to hang out in the same room as you and your guests.


----------



## d4lilbitz (Dec 30, 2013)

Sounds like he needs OB training. At 19 months he's still a puppy. With his last owner, it sounds like he didn't have much training. It takes several weeks for the dog to really feel comfortable in a new environement, then their personality comes out. The biting is him playing, it's not acceptable at all, but no ones told him that. He respects you, but in his mind, he's next up on the chain of command. Finding a good trainer to work with him will really help you all out. Congrats on your new family member!


----------



## Tiffseagles (May 12, 2010)

Sounds like a shutdown would very much benefit him. Ideally it is done as soon as he comes home, but you can start one at any time. Here's info:
http://www.bigdogsbighearts.com/2_week_shutdown0001.pdf

If you hurt your back and cannot exercise him as much, keep an eye on craiglist or freecycle for a cheap treadmill.

He doesn't sound particularly dominant to me. He sounds insecure. That's why he's barking but not advancing. And that's why he's waiting until backs are turned before nipping - he's not confident enough to do it face-to-face.

Here's a good explanation of desensitization and counter conditioning protocols that you can use with him.
https://www.aspca.org/pet-care/virt...avior/desensitization-and-counterconditioning

Dr. Overall's Relaxation Protocol may also help:
http://www.deerrunanimalhospital.co...ts/Protocol_for_Relaxation_Tier_1_figures.doc

And of course you can always consult a professional. It is always a good idea to do when you are working with serious issues.

I also wanted to add - if the 11 year old was following him it may have scared him. However, if she touched his hips at all, it may have actually caused him pain. It may be a good idea to rule out a medical issue like hip dysplasia as a contributing factor to the situation.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

He is 19 months old, and I think that now you know why his original owner has decided he needed to go to a nice rescue. You've had him for 5 weeks, so he has gotten over his honey-moon period and is now starting to show the issues that probably got him chucked into a rescue. 

Frankly, I am shocked that you would allow a dog that has nipped your own daughter hard enough to hurt in the butt, on two separate occasions, to get close enough to a 7 year old niece to put his teeth on her. Your dog has PROBLEMS. 

This isn't herding behavior. The nip in the butt is chicken-bleep biting. It indicates poor character, probably weakness in nerve that could be genetic. He is very unsure of this daughter, anxious about her, and wants her to go away. So he is waiting for her not to be looking at him, and then nipping her. If she was looking at him, he would back down most likely.

But he is young now. As he matures, he may not leave these incidents with a minor nip. He may start breaking the skin. 

Yes, you need a real behaviorist/trainer. Personally, I would cut your losses, and return him to the rescue. The dog is willing to BITE children. And you have children. This dog is a lawsuit just waiting to be filed. But worse yet, this dog is likely to cause some small child to be afraid of dogs, maybe that child will be permanently scarred physically and emotionally. A GSD can kill a small child. That too is a possibility, though rare, if you look at the dog bite statistics for any year, you will see that dogs don't do these things out of the blue, it is usually a string of incidents. 

Your kids and your niece, and your kids' friends are all going to be exposed to this dog. There are a lot of nice dogs out there that do not bite children. This dog can go to some childless couple somewhere, where he will not have constant access to children. I think he is not a good fit for your family situation, and keeping him will mean a lot of work, and even then, how can you trust him, when some things you just can't take back. 

I have two nieces. One just turned 8 this month, and the other will be 8 in January. I have a dog that is your dog's age give or take. He will be two in January. I got him back at 18 months old. My nieces spend some time at my house, in the summer, and sometimes on a holiday weekend. I left them in the house with this dog while I took care of the others outside. You can't do that, even with kids that live in your home, because the dog is not stable around children. He isn't stable. Sorry. It is hard, but it will be a lot harder when you have your kid in the ER getting stitched up, or the neighbor kid. Some things you just can't take back. You can take this puppy back, explain what he is doing with your kids and your niece, and tell them that he isn't a good fit for a busy house with children in and out.

If the rescue is any good at all, they will not want a dog of theirs to do serious harm to a child, so they will probably try to work with the dog, and find him a more appropriate owner. 

I am sorry you are going through this, but, it isn't normal for GSDs. They nip as baby puppies, running up behind someone and nipping a child in the back side when they are almost two? No, that isn't normal.


----------



## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

selzer said:


> He is 19 months old, and I think that now you know why his original owner has decided he needed to go to a nice rescue. You've had him for 5 weeks, so he has gotten over his honey-moon period and is now starting to show the issues that probably got him chucked into a rescue.
> 
> Frankly, I am shocked that you would allow a dog that has nipped your own daughter hard enough to hurt in the butt, on two separate occasions, to get close enough to a 7 year old niece to put his teeth on her. Your dog has PROBLEMS.
> 
> ...


Yes. This.


----------



## ugavet2012 (Apr 15, 2010)

I third this. 
You most likely will not make this dog into what you are wanting. I would adopt a dog who already tolerates/has an affinity for children.


----------



## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...il-male-gsd-20-months-purebread-neutered.html


----------

