# Wolf/Dog Hybirds



## martemchik

Ok, so a member recently got a wolf/dog hybrid and sparked a debate. I'm intrigued, and I'm going to start a thread for the discussion to continue. Hopefully this way no one feels attacked/their dog is being attacked and we can all discuss our opinions on the hybrid. What is your opinion of these animals? Should they be bred? Is there any use for them? If you have one...what was the reason you got one? If you don't have one...what do you think the main reason that people get these dogs is?

I'll start...

I don't believe these hybrids should be bred. Lots of information says you have to be an extremely experienced dog owner to have one, and even then there could be a huge failure. I have heard a few stories from people (that think I'm interested because I have a GSD) about their "wolfdogs" from when they were kids that I have started to believe there are a lot of liars about the dog. Many people have through their childhood dog was a hybrid, but the way it acted had absolutely no signs of wolf behavior or general wolfdog temperament. I believe this causes some to go and search out a wolfdog breeder and then figure out what they now have.

I'm not lumping everyone that has one into this category but it seems to me many people get one for the title, the rank, the notoriety. To be able to say "I have a wolfdog." Its the same reason people pay thousands of dollars for a dog from champion lines, so they can say, "His parents were champions." Maybe this is the wrong opinion, but because I don't see any logical reason to have one, this was the one that I came up with.

So what are your thoughts? Feel free to disprove anything I have said, I'd like to learn more on the topic and exactly from the source would be fantastic. Maybe the new owner can chime in a little with how they have noticed the puppy is different from a GSD puppy and what they think that will lead to when their older.


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## LoveEcho

I know several people with malamute mixes who tell people they're wolf mixes  

I wonder if there's any legal issues, regarding exotic animals and whatnot? I'm sure it varies state by state... granted, there's also not really any way to prove it one way or another, right?


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## msvette2u

Well since everyone knows how I feel, I'll just re-post the link -

Wolf Haven International | Wolf-Dog Hybrids | Ask Yourself Why.

I agree, they should not be bred. I wish there were laws banning such practices and the sales of these animals.

The average dog owner shouldn't own a houseplant, let alone a dog. So why breed "super dogs" that can destroy almost any barrier known to man and be such a huge liability even to an experienced owner? 

Plus the people breeding and selling these animals are not doing it for the animal's sake (to improve a wolf or a dog) they are doing it merely for money, and the animals suffer in the long run.

Wolf Haven states it well (link above). I have visited Wolf Haven almost yearly when we vacation, and I love their education programs.

(Post from the other thread)

My problem is with the selfish mentality that people want what they want, when they want it (and often it's a status symbol), this is why backyard breeders/unscrupulous breeders/puppy mills exist. 

My strong reaction is to the nature of the beast in our country right now, that demands such awful breeding practices, no matter what the "breed" or species involved. Because as much as I hate puppy mills and people who churn out puppies _simply because they can,_ I know in my heart of hearts that if there were no market for these creatures (and often "top dollar", as much as a well-bred purebred), there would not be people breeding them.


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## Chance&Reno

Wolfdogs are illegal in my state. The vets aren't even allowed to touch them. 


> I know several people with malamute mixes who tell people they're wolf mixes


That's because SOME people believe that Malamutes are "wolves" because of the way they are raised. What ever their reason, I do believe people state this because it is all about the oooos and ahhhhs they get when they say it. Of course the people they tell that to are just as ignorant as they are. 

Somone asked me if my Greyhound was a wolf, just goes to show you that people don't have a clue.

Would I own a hybrid? I don't know. Definitely not now or the near future. If one came along who needed a home and I lived in a state that allowed it, _maybe_ I'd take the dog in. Who's to say. I wouldn't go out and specifically look for one, though. I have nothing against them but it's that exact fear of the unknown that keeps them outside of my comfort zone.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

HybridLaw.com - State laws regarding Hybrid cats, wolves, dogs and other animals
NWA, Legislative Issues - State Regulations

Also important to note in your state whether they consider the rabies shot given to a hybrid (or wolf) as okay. So if the dog-wolf bites, or is bitten by a rabid animal, is it an automatic PTS, or what? Because rabies studies have not been done in these animals, I believe the thought is that they are not known to be effective. This is old but: AWIC Newsletter: The Wolf-Dog Hybrid

Good example: CVMA Document


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## msvette2u

I'd say (in my uneducated view anyway) to get a Husky or a Malamute or a combo of the two if you wanted to "practice" for a wolf.

We fostered one (Mal x Husky) and he managed to get out of his crate - inside - and open the door, get out into our yard and proceeded to kill every chicken we had on our property (the cats managed to escape thank God) and had started killing our sheep before I arrived home to stop the carnage. He was here because the owners could not keep him on their property w/a 6' fence (loose in the back yard, duh) and he was rampaging through town killing every cat in his path. 

You have to have a special pen for those dogs, and it has to have cement on the bottom/floor and a lid on the top - no chain link for those guys - and the pros themselves tell you they cannot live in country settings where there is livestock.


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## Dragonwyke

i have to agree w/msvette. i think that wolfdogs should not be purposefully bred for the pet market. i think that people that do this are doing a great disservice to both the wolf and to the dog. i believe that the average dog owner (irresponsible, lazy, uneducated - probably NO ONE on this forum) is completely unprepared and unequal to the challenge of such an animal. 

however, being that wolfdogs are among us and they will not be going anywhere fast, i see no point in belaboring the idea of outlawing them. it's like trying to outlaw pitbulls, tibetan mastiffs, pet rats, or parrots because they bite, carry diseases, or become endangered in the wild. they've been part of the pet market for quite some time, it's only recently that they've become more noticeable since so many idiots have gotten hold of them thinking they're the coolest thing since ice cream, that we see so very many going into rescue/sanctuary. the economy has a GREAT deal to do with it as well. 

i've noticed that people who have had alot of money at one time have lost a great deal of their comfort zone and the first thing that goes is the thing that was "extra" and that's the cool stuff, like the wolfdog and other pets and comforts of money. there's also been a BIG hit on some of the rescues these days as there's been less and less disposable income for donations, those rescues and sanctuaries have gone under therefore having to spread out their wolves and wolfdogs. i personally know of 2 of them, as well as 1 big cat rescue. so they're even in the news more and more often. 

that all being said, i do love them. i adore my wolfdog girl, Sasha. i never wanted to own one myself, had always talked people out of buying one. she was a total accident for me to own at all. after having her, i'd still never purposely purchase one, but i would, if i could afford to do it, set up a rescue/sanctuary for wolfdogs. that's a pipedream tho, as the finances for something like that is very far out of my reach. 

dw


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## msvette2u

There's just really no room anywhere for them when they are discarded.

I read Florida has a humongous (pardon the pun here) problem with snakes! Burmese Pythons, boas and other pythons that get extremely large and eat small furry mammals and even small naked mammals (children) if they could. 

People are fascinated by some of these creatures but don't know the reality of it until it hits and they are lost and bewildered and set to dumping them loose where they shouldn't be loose 

I read the other day about parrots, that in 20-30 years or so, there's going to be a huge crisis for parrots when their owners die and they still have another 30-40 years left to live.

Sorry to stray OT. Maybe it's not OT.


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## RebelGSD

I was contacted by a shelter that had a older German Shepherd female that was not doing well at the shelter and needed rescue. They were proud that they had her pedigree. 
They said she was barking in the kennel but she was wonderful outside. I went there and they brought her out for me into a larger play yard. I spent an hour with her. She seemed sweet and did well with my dog and I agreed to take her. They proudly gave me her pedigree and I almost passed out when I discovered that she was part wolf and it was the wolf hybrid registry. I have no idea what they were thinking, wolf hybrids are not legal in my state. I still felt she was sweet and did not deserve to die. They told me that she was not vaccinated because the vet was not comfortable giving her the shots. We packed her in the back of the SUV and she was ok. When I got home, I tried to get her leash to get her out of the car, and she snarled showed teeth and tried to bite every time I made a movement toward her. I grabbed a burger and tried to feed it to her but she wanted no food, just snarled and lunged and tried to bite when I offered her food. I sat in the car on the other side on the partition for two hours hoping that she will get used to me, no luck. Just snarling, teeth and bite attempts. It was the hottest summer and I could not leave her in the car indefinitely, so I drove back to the shelter. She was fine with the staff guy who got her out of the car. He put her back into her kennel and told me to walk to the kennel, again, lunging, snarling and teeth when she saw me. She certainly did not like me. The girls at the shelter were very upset that i returned her. 
I don't know how much this had to do with her being a hybrid, but she was certainly bipolar and nasty. In hindsight I understood why the vet did not vaccinate her. The girls at the shelter felt that a rescue should be equipped to deal with this.


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## Freestep

As I mentioned in the other thread, when I was young, I thought it would be incredibly cool to own a wolfdog. I had always admired wolves and thought it would be the ultimate pet to have. Everyone told me it was a bad idea and implored me not to get one, but being 19, I was quite certain that things would be different for me. 

Predictably, it was a disaster. After about 5 months of age he became impossible to contain. He destroyed everything he got near--trees, window screens, the siding off the house, the insulation under the house, you name it--if he was near something, it was destroyed. He could not be left alone, ever. Talk about separation anxiety! As long as I had him, which was just under a year, he loved people and other dogs--he'd been socialized as much as it is possible to socialize an animal, so he was friendly and sweet, but had no inclination to please. At the time, I had no idea how to train an animal that would not listen to a word I said unless there was something in it for him.

I finally had to give him up to some folks up in the mountains, who were equally unprepared to deal with a wolfdog, and he ended up wandering clear across the canyon to the next mountain over where a woman lived with a female wolfdog. They kept him for a while, until the two wolfodgs started harassing the neighbor's livestock, and the female was shot and killed. Fearing for his safety, and with no way to contain him, the woman took my wolfdog to the city shelter, where I discovered him purely by chance. I couldn't take him back, of course, but was very concerned for him. He was adopted by some folks who moved to some property in Washington state, where I can only hope he lived out a good, peaceful life.

Getting a wolfdog was one of the biggest mistakes of my life, and I regret it deeply.

No, I don't think people should be breeding and selling these animals. It's unethical, unfair to both wolves and dogs, dangerous for both the owner and the animal, and in some areas, illegal. I will not touch them at my grooming shop, simply because there is no Rabies vaccine approved for them, and a bite is an automatic 6 month quarantine, or death for the animal.


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## martemchik

Why should rescues be equipped to deal with this kind of behavior? Especially from a dog that is a hybrid. It would be taking funds and resources away from other, much more adoptable animals. I understand that people that love animals don't want to see any put down, I feel the same way, but a regular pet/dog rescue should not have to deal with these kinds of animals.


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## RebelGSD

I agree. I don't think they even looked at her pedigree, I certainly hope they did not intentionally mislead me. Sadly many people think that rescues should deal with aggressive animals others discard. Most shelters are more reasonable though and would not expect people to be breaking the law they are enforcing.


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## martemchik

Ok...so I'm reading some of the other threads that are being perpetuated on the topic. People that have met/interacted with wolfdogs of others...how do you know they are wolf dogs? A lot of people are posting that they have great temperaments and get along great with everyone, but what is the proof that they are wolf dogs? Or what is the amount of wolf in there? Is it a great grandparent, is it two great grandparents? Is it farther back?

I'm one that is very skeptical when someone tells me they've had a wolfdog. Then they go and tell me they got him at a flea market and the lady claimed they were mixed. And yet the thing wasn't aggressive towards anyone and was quite submissive. I don't doubt that some of the dogs are ok, but I can't imagine seeing one at a dog park or just running with a random pack of dogs without being dominant in some sort of way.

This just brings me to the reason the dogs are purchased...its the wow factor. It's the being able to tell people your dog is mixed with a wolf. Its the showing off of how great of a dog owner you are because you can own something that is part wild animal. It's hard to imagine that there is such a difference in the way the dogs can act when you read stories about how one destroys everything it can get its paws on and others act just like a normal dog (even friendlier in some instances). I guess it might have something to do with content, but my biggest point is that I just don't trust what comes out of people's mouths when they talk about wolf hybrids. In the same way I don't trust people that tell me they had a 150 lbs GSD when they were little and mine is a runt compared to theirs.


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## msvette2u

I saw some for sale when we went over White Pass years ago. They had a huge piece of plywood painted with the words Wolf Hybrids and then a percentages thingie but no price. We did not stop.

My dad visited a place in Montana I think it was, or Idaho, where there was wolf-dogs being bred, the father I believe he said, was pure wolf and it was penned up, pacing back and forth.

Even if you enjoyed the concept of owning a dog like this, who can justify keeping a wolf in those conditions?? And you could not keep it any other way.

I mean - you (general "you", nobody in particular) say you love wolves, but what you love about them is the wildness and beauty and regal nature of them, which they lose immediately when kept captive!


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## Freestep

martemchik said:


> Ok...so I'm reading some of the other threads that are being perpetuated on the topic. People that have met/interacted with wolfdogs of others...how do you know they are wolf dogs? A lot of people are posting that they have great temperaments and get along great with everyone, but what is the proof that they are wolf dogs? Or what is the amount of wolf in there? Is it a great grandparent, is it two great grandparents? Is it farther back?


I too am skeptical when people claim there is wolf in their dogs...often times, it's just a husky/GSD mix of some sort, but people like to say they have a "wolfdog" because it seems cool. There are some animals where you can obviously see wolf characteristics, but with many others, it's doubtful, or the content is so low as to be negligable. I imagine a lot of people who sell "wolf hybrids" have little to no wolf content at all, but it allows them to sell mixed-breed puppies at a higher price.


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## RebelGSD

Many people think that the sables, especially silver sables, are wolves. Wh had one in rescue and got that question all the time.


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## martemchik

But even wolf characteristics...what are they? You really can't find a wolf characteristic that doesn't exist on some breed of dog. It wouldn't take long for someone with the right motivation to make a dog that looks exactly like a wolf. I've seen a silver sable looking mix that looked exactly like a sable GSD but was black/grey/white. I would've sworn it was a wolf mix if not for the size of the dog. The guy happily told me it was a malamute/GSD mix. If he would've told me it was a hybrid, I would've believed him except for the size of his dog.


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## Dragonwyke

msvette2u said:


> People are fascinated by some of these creatures but don't know the reality of it until it hits and they are lost and bewildered and set to dumping them loose where they shouldn't be loose
> 
> I read the other day about parrots, that in 20-30 years or so, there's going to be a huge crisis for parrots when their owners die and they still have another 30-40 years left to live.
> 
> Sorry to stray OT. Maybe it's not OT.


it might be a stray off the OT, but only slightly. it's the same issue. animals that should've never been taken out of the wild are stuck. does anyone have cockatoos? i used to, don't anymore, take in and rehab large parrots w/psychological and emotional issues for their owners. it sometimes took as long as a year or more to overcome some of the problems. screaming, feather picking, biting, cage bound, self mutilation, etc etc etc. but unlike wolfdogs, these birds are pure wild animals domestically bred. they still have ALL of their wild dna locked into a cage. some of them can live up to 120yrs (macaws, large cockatoos, large african greys, amazons). like the wolfdog there are very few places to send them. 

dw


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## Freestep

martemchik said:


> But even wolf characteristics...what are they? You really can't find a wolf characteristic that doesn't exist on some breed of dog.


It does take a trained eye, as many people think sled dog breeds and even GSDs look like wolves. To me, those breeds look nothing like wolves. It's hard to describe how to identify wolf traits as opposed to dog traits, but a lot of it is behavioral.

eta: There are breeders trying to create a dog breed that looks like a wolf, but without any wolf blood, they're calling it the "Tamaskan". They are mixing GSD with sled dog breeds. But there is some contention as to whether the sled dog breeds they are using actually do have wolf blood.


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## martemchik

Freestep said:


> It does take a trained eye, as many people think sled dog breeds and even GSDs look like wolves. To me, those breeds look nothing like wolves. It's hard to describe how to identify wolf traits as opposed to dog traits, but a lot of it is behavioral.
> 
> eta: There are breeders trying to create a dog breed that looks like a wolf, but without any wolf blood, they're calling it the "Tamaskan". They are mixing GSD with sled dog breeds. But there is some contention as to whether the sled dog breeds they are using actually do have wolf blood.


I agree with you, its all behavioral, that's why its hard to believe a wolfdog running around at a dog park. Or a wolf dog that loves everything it comes in contact with.


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## sabledog

msvette2u said:


> Well since everyone knows how I feel, I'll just re-post the link -
> 
> Wolf Haven International | Wolf-Dog Hybrids | Ask Yourself Why.
> 
> I agree, they should not be bred. I wish there were laws banning such practices and the sales of these animals.
> 
> The average dog owner shouldn't own a houseplant, let alone a dog. So why breed "super dogs" that can destroy almost any barrier known to man and be such a huge liability even to an experienced owner?
> 
> Plus the people breeding and selling these animals are not doing it for the animal's sake (to improve a wolf or a dog) they are doing it merely for money, and the animals suffer in the long run.
> 
> Wolf Haven states it well (link above). I have visited Wolf Haven almost yearly when we vacation, and I love their education programs.
> 
> (Post from the other thread)
> 
> My problem is with the selfish mentality that people want what they want, when they want it (and often it's a status symbol), this is why backyard breeders/unscrupulous breeders/puppy mills exist.
> 
> My strong reaction is to the nature of the beast in our country right now, that demands such awful breeding practices, no matter what the "breed" or species involved. Because as much as I hate puppy mills and people who churn out puppies _simply because they can,_ I know in my heart of hearts that if there were no market for these creatures (and often "top dollar", as much as a well-bred purebred), there would not be people breeding them.


This!

I'm a big "let's keep the wild wild" person.


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## Syaoransbear

I'm not sure I can talk, because I own exotic birds heh. But undomesticated predator animals probably shouldn't be house pets.

It would be neat if they tried harder to make a dog that looked exactly like a wolf though. I know there's a few breeds out there that are supposed to look like wolves, but they don't really look that wolfish beyond color.


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## msvette2u

We have two rescued parrots (Amazons) and we're still trying to convince the kids to take care of them when we're gone!
I think one is 20ish and the other, a teenager still


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## Freestep

martemchik said:


> I agree with you, its all behavioral, that's why its hard to believe a wolfdog running around at a dog park. Or a wolf dog that loves everything it comes in contact with.


That's actually not uncommon when they are young. While it's natural for a high-content wolfdog to be wary of strangers and strange situations, and nervous outside his home territory, some are quite social and doglike when young. If extensively socialized while young, some can be very friendly, especially with other dogs. But this changes around the 2-3 year mark, when a wolf or high-content wolfdog reaches maturity. A low content animal may continue to act like a dog, but a high-content animal may start acting like a wolf. If it has a dominant personality, it can be a very dangerous animal, as its behavior is not always predictable and not what you would expect from a domestic canine.


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## brembo

Just a note/clarification here, ALL CURRENT DOMESTIC DOGS are 99% genetically similar to wolves. Domesticated dogs are essentially wolf puppies, I.E. wolves that never grow up. 

That being said I have a fascination for the Saarloos hound, it's a wolfdog of sorts. The original intent was to breed out the predisposition for distemper(I think) in canines. That failed but the breeder ended up with a beautiful and healthy dog. I think as a general companion and worker the GSD is superior to the Saarloos, but there is no denying the health benefits created by re-introducing some fresh wolf DNA to the kettle. I personally like aloof and slightly mistrustful dogs, ones that form an ungodly tight bond with a select few and ignore the rest. The Saarloos has been described as the "dog geek's dog" and that fits me. I have a Malinois and she's pretty easy really, drivey but compliant. I would not foist her on a newb owner for sure, she'd be in charge within hours.

First gen hybrids act like, well, first gen hybrids. The pack instinct is alive and well and they do not always act like the lovable domesticated dogs we know. My GSD, who is a big strong fella with a strong streak of individualism bends to my will without question. When he nuzzles my neck I get soft fuzzy feelings, I'd be terrified if a hybrid did this. I know in the deepest reaches of my brain that Banjo will not hurt me intentionally. This is not to say that hybrids are baby-killers looking for a chance to gorge themselves on human blood. They have different wiring upstairs and the rules are different. You would not give a top-flight working line GSD to a beginner just as you would not want to see a hybrid in the hands of anyone short of a researcher with a PHD in Behaviorism. I'd love to interact with some high percentage hybrids, watch the dynamics and experience the raw vitality of the mix, but never ever would I want one*. 





*Exception is the Saarloos, it's a 8th or 12th gen hybrid and is essentially a GSD with a few twists.


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## llombardo

Years ago I took in a collie/wolf and she was such a wonderful puppy, very smart but I couldn't keep her due to living situations. I took her into the local police station and a police officer took her. That dog turned into a wonderful dog Also during my time working at the vet, we had one customer that had a 100 % wolf-this dog was huge and it was obvious he was a wolf..they listed him as a malamute mix because its illegal where I live to have any kind of wolf as a pet. This wolf was 12 years old and beautiful. He was raised with kids and other dogs and they never had a problem with him. I do believe they were lucky. Wolves are my favorite creature..they are beautiful but even I would never attempt to own one. All it would take is one bite and its over 

A tested fun fact...the bite force of different dogs as follows:
Pit Bull 235 pounds
GSD 238 pounds
Rott 328 pounds(at first tested at 265, then consistently in the 300 range)
African
Wild Dog 317 pounds
*WOLF 406 pounds*


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## Draugr

I have no problem with a person owning a wolfdog, IF:

They've had years of prior experience owning Northern breeds, and/or "primitive" livestock guardian breeds,

They've spent a few years "apprenticing" under an experienced wolf/wolf-dog habitat owner,

They have an appropriate, dig-proof enclosure to contain them in with very high double-fencing (10 feet, minimum), and no objects close to the fencing that they could use to escape, and electric wire around the base,

They are not viewed as a "pet" animal, and are treated with the respect a large animal with an undomesticated temperament deserves,

They've complied with all local, state, and federal laws regarding the ownership of said animal.

And they should NEVER be deliberately bred for a pet market. My dad was telling me about this guy he knows who owns a wolf-dog. I raised my eyebrows, kept listening - apparently she's just the greatest pet ever and wonderfully affectionate, lives in the house with him...I cut in right there to tell him that this guy does not own a wolf-dog. He owns a mix of northern breeds that was marketed to him as a wolf =/.

Point being, we domesticated the wolf for a reason. Leave the wolf in the wild, where he belongs, please. Admire him from a distance, but do not bring him into your home. It is unfair to both you, your neighbors, AND the wolf. You can own your own "wolfdog" just by dropping by the shelter and picking any one of the dozens of dogs there to bring home. It's a taste of the traits we admired in the wolf as primitive human beings, and specifically bred for, while breeding out the traits that make them undesirable companions.


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## Verivus

In general, wolfdogs are not suitable house pets for JQP and even most experienced dog owners. A true wolfdog, especially if they are high-content, just cannot be trusted around people or other pets. They are too influenced by traits from their wolf genetics which makes the majority unpredictable and thus a liability. I think it's misconceiving to call them dogs... I think it makes more sense to call them wolf mixes. 

I don't understand why anyone would want a wolf/wolfdog... yes they are beautiful, but they are absolutely not suitable for domestic life. There is too much "wildness" in them. No matter how much socializing you do when they're young, most will STILL be skittish around strangers/unknown animals/new situations as a mature adult because it's in their genetics and that's one thing you cannot change. Everything is 10000000000000000x harder and more work with a wolfdog then with your average domestic dog. Why is this desirable!? Makes absolutely no sense to me. If you want a dog that looks like a wolf there are other options out there. The Saarloos, which was mentioned, Czechoslovakian wolfdog, Utonagan, and Tamaskan come to mind. 

I do believe the majority of people who claim they have wolfdogs don't have wolfdogs at all, but some mix of northern breeds. I always take wolfdog claims with a grain of salt. Wolfdogs cannot get recognized rabies vaccinations and are illegal to own in some states.


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## llombardo

Verivus said:


> In general, wolfdogs are not suitable house pets for JQP and even most experienced dog owners. A true wolfdog, especially if they are high-content, just cannot be trusted around people or other pets. They are too influenced by traits from their wolf genetics which makes the majority unpredictable and thus a liability. I think it's misconceiving to call them dogs... I think it makes more sense to call them wolf mixes.
> 
> I don't understand why anyone would want a wolf/wolfdog... yes they are beautiful, but they are absolutely not suitable for domestic life. There is too much "wildness" in them. No matter how much socializing you do when they're young, most will STILL be skittish around strangers/unknown animals/new situations as a mature adult because it's in their genetics and that's one thing you cannot change. Everything is 10000000000000000x harder and more work with a wolfdog then with your average domestic dog. Why is this desirable!? Makes absolutely no sense to me. If you want a dog that looks like a wolf there are other options out there. The Saarloos, which was mentioned, Czechoslovakian wolfdog, Utonagan, and Tamaskan come to mind.
> 
> I do believe the majority of people who claim they have wolfdogs don't have wolfdogs at all, but some mix of northern breeds. I always take wolfdog claims with a grain of salt. Wolfdogs cannot get recognized rabies vaccinations and are illegal to own in some states.


I do agree that they are illegal to own in some states..mine is one of them. But I'm telling you the one I did know of that was 100% wolf was not skiddish, very calm, and better behaved then most dogs. The owners obviously took raising him the way they did very seriously because he was with kids and other animals with not one problem in 12 years..He even gave me a kiss and I honestly did not have any fear when I was face to face with him, so it can be done We also have a wolf sanctuary near by and those people brought a baby wolf into a local bar to socialize it with humans...I didn't get to see that one, but I was there when they brought in the cougar


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## GSD Fan

I know of a girl who has a husky/wolf hybrid. He's not fake, he's really part wolf. She has the papers to prove it.

Any way, she had one litter out of him and neutered him. She bred him to a husky female. The puppies are gorgeous but I would not have gotten one even if I could have. I just don't believe in owning wolves. Huskies and german shepherds are considered exotic or "dangerous" enough to people. Imagine if her wolf hybrid dog go out? When she came by not too long ago, people were scared of him. I bet they would steal him or possibly shoot him out of fear.


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## Verivus

llombardo said:


> I do agree that they are illegal to own in some states..mine is one of them. But I'm telling you the one I did know of that was 100% wolf was not skiddish, very calm, and better behaved then most dogs. The owners obviously took raising him the way they did very seriously because he was with kids and other animals with not one problem in 12 years..He even gave me a kiss and I honestly did not have any fear when I was face to face with him, so it can be done We also have a wolf sanctuary near by and those people brought a baby wolf into a local bar to socialize it with humans...I didn't get to see that one, but I was there when they brought in the cougar


1 out of what? 100? 10,000? I know it can be possible given the right combination of genetics. That doesn't mean it's right or safe to be breeding wolf mixes. These are NOT dogs. Are you even sure that was 100% wolf? Most wolfdog claims are false.


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## Freestep

GSD Fan said:


> I know of a girl who has a husky/wolf hybrid. He's not fake, he's really part wolf. *She has the papers to prove it*.


:rofl:


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## GSD Fan

Freestep said:


> :rofl:


You're right, it's just what she says. But can't you get papers to prove it? Like if you buy from a wolf hybrid kennel?


----------



## msvette2u

The problem is no reputable registration company would condone the interbreeding of dogs x wolves.
So. There you have it - the "papers" could be fake, or real, who would know??


----------



## llombardo

Verivus said:


> 1 out of what? 100? 10,000? I know it can be possible given the right combination of genetics. That doesn't mean it's right or safe to be breeding wolf mixes. These are NOT dogs. Are you even sure that was 100% wolf? Most wolfdog claims are false.


Yes I'm sure...the owner actually tried lying and saying it was something else(malamute), but its features were very distinctive of a wolf(wolves are illegal where we live). We finally had a talk while we were in the room waiting for the doctor The dog wasn't mixed with anything it was 100% wolf...I have to say that I had a collie/wolf also and she was a wonderful puppy and turned into a great dog..she lived a long, normal healthy life with a nice family with kids. The only reason I didn't keep her(I wanted to) was that I was moving back home and my mom said no because we already had four dogs I personally have not had or known anyone to have a bad experience with a wolf/wolf mix...I've seen worse things with huskies to be honest.


----------



## Freestep

I just drew up some papers saying my dog is half hyena. It's official! I have papers to prove it! Now for the low, low price of $40,000, you can have a half hyena, half GSD of your very own!


----------



## Greydusk

Freestep said:


> I just drew up some papers saying my dog is half hyena. It's official! I have papers to prove it! Now for the low, low price of $40,000, you can have a half hyena, half GSD of your very own!


Psst...Hyena are Felids I.E. cats.


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## Freestep

Greydusk said:


> Psst...Hyena are Felids I.E. cats.


But I have papers!


----------



## Greydusk

Freestep said:


> But I have papers!



Oh. Carry on then!


----------



## llombardo

Out of curiosity I just did a web search and it looks like breeding wolf dogs is starting to be a very common practice and they are becoming more and more popular..I'm guessing this would be a way to find out if these dogs have papers to prove what they are. It seems that most are mixed with husky or malamute, which really is a good cover up for someone that wants a wolf but its illegal where they live...do I agree that this is the best situation? Not in a million years, because as popular as its becoming they also already have numerous rescues for this breed


----------



## Freestep

llombardo said:


> Out of curiosity I just did a web search and it looks like breeding wolf dogs is starting to be a very common practice


It's been a common practice for a long time. I got my wolfdog back in the 80's. It's just that there's an internet now.


----------



## Dainerra

my neighbor has papers saying that her "pugsund" is purebred. Half pug, half dachsund. The breeder told her that they were recently accepted by the AKC as well.


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## msvette2u

When it all boils down to it, without DNA, papers just rely on the integrity of the breeder.
I'm sorry, but I do not hold in high regard the breeder of an animal not suited for any domestic situation.


----------



## Verivus

llombardo said:


> Yes I'm sure...the owner actually tried lying and saying it was something else(malamute), but its features were very distinctive of a wolf(wolves are illegal where we live). We finally had a talk while we were in the room waiting for the doctor The dog wasn't mixed with anything it was 100% wolf...I have to say that I had a collie/wolf also and she was a wonderful puppy and turned into a great dog..she lived a long, normal healthy life with a nice family with kids. The only reason I didn't keep her(I wanted to) was that I was moving back home and my mom said no because we already had four dogs I personally have not had or known anyone to have a bad experience with a wolf/wolf mix...I've seen worse things with huskies to be honest.


Have you ever seen some of the northern breeds? Agouti huskies? They can look very similar to wolves. Unless they told me they had gone and plucked up the wolf as a pup from the wild I would have a hard time believing any dog is a wolfdog. And no... wolf mixes do not have papers... lol. Unless you mean they printed it off the computer after typing one up on Microsoft Word.


----------



## DunRingill

Papers don't mean a thing. I can make up papers on my computer, saying that my guinea pig is actually a tri-colored whiffle hund. I don't actually have a piggie anymore, but the papers would be just as real!


----------



## Dragonwyke

i'm not understanding people saying they own a 100% purebred wolf and are living w/it as tho it were a dog in their house and w/their family. there must be something that i'm missing here, because this is just not possible. it's not, i'm sorry. someone is telling tall tales, here. because even if you take a blind 1wk old puppy and hand raise it, when it reaches physical maturity at the age of 3yrs and sexual maturity at the age of 5yrs there will be no living in the house with a wolf. 

you cannot house train a wolf, you cannot teach a wolf not shred anything within it's reach, you cannot teach a wolf to eat at a specific time or eat kibble, they require a specific high protein diet. the puppies don't just like it they require it or they will founder and die, the adults don't just like to eat it, they require it or they die of anemia, malnutrition, and dehydration. you cannot teach a wolf NOT to dig, NOT to run, NOT to kill small animals. there are so many things they do that are so much more! i mean they do all the dog stuff just upped by a dozen in crazy levels. 

i have a low-mid content. she's an easy keeper. she's like living w/a high energy husky/mal mix. this girl is a serious hunter/killer - but the gsd in her makes her a good learner - but she listens when it suits her. she is a runner and if i don't keep a constant watch on her in the yard she can dig out in a matter of moments. she is terribly rough when playing and it has nothing to do w/dominance issues at all. she's just rough as nails because that's the nature of the beast. her diet is not terrible to keep up w/because she's not high content, but that doesn't mean i don't have to keep up w/the higher protein. 

there is no way to comfortably live w/a 100% purebred wolf. it's difficult to live wolfdogs of any content level. if someone tells you they are selling wolfdogs question it. if they tell you they're selling high content wolfdogs question it doubly. if they tell you they're living with or selling pure wolves, call them a liar and walk away. cuz it just ain't so. sorry folks. 

dw


----------



## Shaina

Like this guy?

Hyena on South Beach - Page 1 - News - Miami - Miami New Times

Raised a hyena from a pup.. yeah, that worked well! 

It's just not meant to happen. No 100% wolf is going to be a trusted family member.


----------



## Draugr

For anyone who thinks this is possible, I really encourage you to purchase the book "The Daily Coyote."

A woman basically has hand-raised this coyote from only a few weeks old. Her general thoughts, summed up? She wouldn't trade "Charlie" for the world, but she'd also NEVER do it again. There are still problems abound with him.


----------



## BowWowMeow

Wolf hybrids have been popular for a long time. I knew one about that a friend of a friend owned, about 25 years ago. I LOVE dogs but this guy really was scary. He was not like a dog. He lived outside (hated to be inside and would shred things up), was a runner and was just not dog-like. I met this dog when he was an adolescent and I really felt a little scared of him b/c he was so big and powerful (and I had a 90lb gsd at the time). 

We also placed a gsd rescue with a family that had a wolf x gsd rescue named Timber (how original, right?). She and the gsd became best friends but she could not tolerate staying in the house, even with him in there. She had an enclosure and den outside and she would come inside for a few minutes at a time and lie right next to the open door. She was very skittish and really was mostly disinterested in people. She was much more wolf-like than dog-like. 

I agree that they should never be pets and I wish people would stop breeding them. I don't understand wanting to "own" something wild. Why not just get a dog? Why support "breeders" who cross wolves with dogs?


----------



## llombardo

Dragonwyke said:


> i'm not understanding people saying they own a 100% purebred wolf and are living w/it as tho it were a dog in their house and w/their family. there must be something that i'm missing here, because this is just not possible. it's not, i'm sorry. someone is telling tall tales, here. because even if you take a blind 1wk old puppy and hand raise it, when it reaches physical maturity at the age of 3yrs and sexual maturity at the age of 5yrs there will be no living in the house with a wolf.
> 
> you cannot house train a wolf, you cannot teach a wolf not shred anything within it's reach, you cannot teach a wolf to eat at a specific time or eat kibble, they require a specific high protein diet. the puppies don't just like it they require it or they will founder and die, the adults don't just like to eat it, they require it or they die of anemia, malnutrition, and dehydration. you cannot teach a wolf NOT to dig, NOT to run, NOT to kill small animals. there are so many things they do that are so much more! i mean they do all the dog stuff just upped by a dozen in crazy levels.
> 
> i have a low-mid content. she's an easy keeper. she's like living w/a high energy husky/mal mix. this girl is a serious hunter/killer - but the gsd in her makes her a good learner - but she listens when it suits her. she is a runner and if i don't keep a constant watch on her in the yard she can dig out in a matter of moments. she is terribly rough when playing and it has nothing to do w/dominance issues at all. she's just rough as nails because that's the nature of the beast. her diet is not terrible to keep up w/because she's not high content, but that doesn't mean i don't have to keep up w/the higher protein.
> 
> there is no way to comfortably live w/a 100% purebred wolf. it's difficult to live wolfdogs of any content level. if someone tells you they are selling wolfdogs question it. if they tell you they're selling high content wolfdogs question it doubly. if they tell you they're living with or selling pure wolves, call them a liar and walk away. cuz it just ain't so. sorry folks.
> 
> dw



I'm not going to argue with anyone here, but I'm telling you that I have physically seen this and I personally petted and received a kiss from this animal. I don't think you can come on here and call anyone a liar...obviously some people have had good experiences with these types of animals whether you agree or not, you can't call everyone a liar--that is very offensive. The owner was not forthcoming when I came out and asked him what breed the dog was. He listed him as a malamute and I knew immediately that that dog was not a malamute, not even close. After we talked for a couple minutes and I observed the "horse" the owner finally admitted what he was..technically the dog was illegal and if anyone turned him in he would have been in big trouble. Even now I find it unreal because my thought process up to that point was the same as lots of other people. This dog was huge(tall and weight). I'm about 5'5 and him just standing there he was past my hips and he weighed about about 130. The father brought him in for a physical and the kids were with him. The dog was very well mannered and calm...absolutely beautiful. They got him when he was 8-10 weeks old and he was 12 when I got to meet him. He had physicals/shots every year according to the records, I did check. He by far was one of the best behaved animals brought into the officeThe vet showed no fear, weird part is that same vet approached a husky(different owner) from the back, scared it and the husky bit her so bad that she had to have stitches. So you may call whomever you wish a liar but I know what I seen and it obviously can happen and whatever those people did they did right because he said it was the best "dog" he has ever owned, never gave him a problem Like I said I had a collie/wolf that also turned into a beautiful dog, very smart..she did like to run and that is how I got her, she kept running away from her owner and she almost got hit by a school bus..finally I couldn't take it and asked them if I could have her..they said yes. We would go to the beach and she would lay there watching me, when the waves started coming and I was playing in the water, she swam out to make sure I was okay...wonderful dog So I'm going out on a limb here and I'm going to say that it all depends on the owner...some people with huskies can't control them but others have no problems..some people with pits have big babies and others have dogs that are aggressive..some people have crazy GSD's others have well behaved GSD's....so I guess it would take a special owner for any dog...wolf or not!!


----------



## Verivus

llombardo said:


> So I'm going out on a limb here and I'm going to say that it all depends on the owner...some people with huskies can't control them but others have no problems..some people with pits have big babies and others have dogs that are aggressive..some people have crazy GSD's others have well behaved GSD's....so I guess it would take a special owner for any dog...wolf or not!!


No, it does not depend on the owner; it depends on the GENETICS. You cannot change genetics. No matter how you bring up a wolf mix it will still have wolf genetics which means some wolf traits WILL come out. If you're lucky your particular wolf mix will turn out okay, but in the cases I have heard of it never turned out okay once they hit maturity.


----------



## llombardo

Verivus said:


> No, it does not depend on the owner; it depends on the GENETICS. You cannot change genetics. No matter how you bring up a wolf mix it will still have wolf genetics which means some wolf traits WILL come out. If you're lucky your particular wolf mix will turn out okay, but in the cases I have heard of it never turned out okay once they hit maturity.



Well I don't necessarily buy the genetic argument, because according to the article below, everyone that owns a dog has a problem then....


_Scientists have discovered that the DNA of wolves and dogs are *IDENTICAL*. They share certain traits as well as a knowledge of pack hierarchy which provides each animal with a place in the pack along with protection and defense of the pack and their territory. Although scientists are uncertain whether man domesticated the dog or they tamed themselves, we do have evidence that dogs have been living with humans for centuries. What is known is that dogs have an instinctive knowledge of their wild counterpart, the wolf.

Wolves and dogs belong to the same family, Canidae, and come from the same species, Canis lupus. All dogs from the tiniest Chihuahua to the massive English Mastiff are related to wolves. Although most dogs look nothing like their wild ancestors, they do share a few qualities that have not been completely lost through responsible breeding.

Like wolves, dogs are loyal, protective of their pack and home, and they want to be near their pack leader. Both dogs and wolves are social animals who want to please the one in charge._


----------



## Verivus

Sorry, DNA of dogs and wolves are *nearly* identical. Not 100%.


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## llombardo

Verivus said:


> Sorry, DNA of dogs and wolves are *nearly* identical. Not 100%.



No apology needed Not to argue but every article or research I have read says Identical and even if its nearly identical the traits and genetics are still there no matter what anyone says...it is what is!! My point is genetically speaking dogs are descendants of wolves and that will never change. So if someone wants to use the word genetics as an argument they should know that they can't change the genetics of every dog in the world


----------



## Verivus

llombardo said:


> No apology needed Not to argue but every article or research I have read says Identical and even if its nearly identical the traits and genetics are still there no matter what anyone says...it is what is!! My point is genetically speaking dogs are descendants of wolves and that will never change. So if someone wants to use the word genetics as an argument they should know that they can't change the genetics of every dog in the world


Okay, do you not understand the difference between domestic and wild?  What is the world coming to? It's like trying to breed a cat to a tiger and saying that it's perfectly okay to keep the offspring as a house pet. You sure aren't going to have any problems because you know, nurture is way more important then nature!


----------



## Freestep

llombardo said:


> I don't think you can come on here and call anyone a liar...!!


No one is calling YOU a liar.


----------



## Dainerra

llombardo said:


> No apology needed Not to argue but every article or research I have read says Identical and even if its nearly identical the traits and genetics are still there no matter what anyone says...it is what is!! My point is genetically speaking dogs are descendants of wolves and that will never change. So if someone wants to use the word genetics as an argument they should know that they can't change the genetics of every dog in the world


if genetics were that simple, then there would be no dog breeds period. All canines would be the same.


----------



## brembo

llombardo said:


> No apology needed Not to argue but every article or research I have read says Identical and even if its nearly identical the traits and genetics are still there no matter what anyone says...it is what is!! My point is genetically speaking dogs are descendants of wolves and that will never change. So if someone wants to use the word genetics as an argument they should know that they can't change the genetics of every dog in the world


Considering the amount of info packed in a DNA helix a small change can amount to huge physical/mental differences. The change that makes dogs domesticated is essentially leaving them in a puppy-like state for their entire life. Many wolf puppy traits are seen in fully mature domesticated dogs. It's a genetic level change, or modification. 

A full-on, wild wolf is more akin to a machine than our friendly domesticated dogs. Sure they have personalities and individual traits, but when the situation goes sideways wolves fall into a purely instinctual operating state, reactions are heightened and the genetic blueprint is followed. Survival. Domesticated dogs are less prone to clicking into a survival state and curiosity/learning and compliance take the lead. It's something we as humans bred into the species, amazing if you really sit back and think about it.

A wolf as a puppy and adolescent is probably pretty cool and fun, but once full maturity is reached and the final neural pathways are forged for adult wolf life the party is over. It is a different species on an anatomical level.


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## Greydusk

Nothing has 100% identical DNA. Not even identical twins. 

Dogs share 98 to 99% with wolves, we share around 99% of our DNA with chimpanzees. That 1 to 2% makes a huge difference.


----------



## llombardo

brembo said:


> Considering the amount of info packed in a DNA helix a small change can amount to huge physical/mental differences. The change that makes dogs domesticated is essentially leaving them in a puppy-like state for their entire life. Many wolf puppy traits are seen in fully mature domesticated dogs. It's a genetic level change, or modification.
> 
> A full-on, wild wolf is more akin to a machine than our friendly domesticated dogs. Sure they have personalities and individual traits, but when the situation goes sideways wolves fall into a purely instinctual operating state, reactions are heightened and the genetic blueprint is followed. Survival. Domesticated dogs are less prone to clicking into a survival state and curiosity/learning and compliance take the lead. It's something we as humans bred into the species, amazing if you really sit back and think about it.
> 
> A wolf as a puppy and adolescent is probably pretty cool and fun, but once full maturity is reached and the final neural pathways are forged for adult wolf life the party is over. It is a different species on an anatomical level.


This can also be said for wild dogs...dogs that have had no socialization and are born and live in the wild. It can be any breed and they will rely on instincts to survive, the very same instincts that wolves have and use.


----------



## brembo

llombardo said:


> This can also be said for wild dogs...dogs that have had no socialization and are born and live in the wild. It can be any breed and they will rely on instincts to survive, the very same instincts that wolves have and use.


Feral dogs can be domesticated with time and patience. Wolves cannot. It's a physical difference.


----------



## msvette2u

llombardo said:


> This can also be said for wild dogs...dogs that have had no socialization and are born and live in the wild. It can be any breed and they will rely on instincts to survive, the very same instincts that wolves have and use.


Oh my.
I guarantee you domesticated dogs who by nonsocialization are feral (no human contact for the 1st 12 weeks of life, or minimal contact) do in no way shape or form "act like wolves".


----------



## Syaoransbear

Having nearly identical genetics doesn't mean all the same genes are being expressed.


----------



## mosul210

brembo said:


> Feral dogs can be domesticated with time and patience. Wolves cannot. It's a physical difference.


I would not be so sure. There are many dogs put down in shelters because they can not be rehabiliated.

Also are we talking about wolves or wolfdogs? I would never try to live with a wolf personally. Not sure how many people have actually visited wolfshelters but wolves can be very destructive they love to dig and chew on everything!


----------



## msvette2u

> I would never try to live with a wolf personally.


But you own a "wolf dog"? One whom you are not sure yet who it will take after primarily, the wolf side or dog side??

That's like getting a Labra-doodle and stating you'd never live with a Poodle. You cannot be sure which the puppy will act like most, a Lab or a Poodle.


----------



## Dragonwyke

llombardo said:


> I don't think you can come on here and call anyone a liar...


i never called YOU a liar. i said if someone tells "you", as in anyone in general, then call them a liar and walk away. that's way different than calling someone a liar. 

dw


----------



## Dragonwyke

msvette2u said:


> Oh my.
> I guarantee you domesticated dogs who by nonsocialization are feral (no human contact for the 1st 12 weeks of life, or minimal contact) do in no way shape or form "act like wolves".



gotta agree w/this one too msvette, lol. my little feral guy just passed not too long ago. he was a mess when he got here, as wild as any little creature you could come across and twice as nasty, cuz he wasn't afraid enough to run. wild animals will run from humans before they fight unless there's something wrong w/them. domestic animals are human aggressive/assertive. that little feral took forever to tame down, but it happened and he was wonderful DOG. loved him to death, everyone that met him did. 

but he was by far nothing like a wolfdog. he was a doggie dog all the way. 

dw


----------



## brembo

mosul210 said:


> I would not be so sure. There are many dogs put down in shelters because they can not be rehabiliated.


Well, lemme rephrase that. There is a chance that a feral dog can be domesticated. With a wolf I'd put good hard money on it not happening and I'd play those odds all day long.


----------



## Dragonwyke

Syaoransbear said:


> Having nearly identical genetics doesn't mean all the same genes are being expressed.


that's pretty good. humans and the great apes share almost all the same genetic material as well. even as close as wolves and dogs. but those genes aren't expressed in the same way, or all expressed entirely. thank goodness. somehow i don't think i'd be happy w/so much body hair  

dw


----------



## brembo

/me flings poo


Must be the repressed ape genetics. *shrug*


----------



## Dragonwyke

brembo said:


> /me flings poo
> 
> 
> Must be the repressed ape genetics. *shrug*




ROTFLMFAO :happyboogie:



omg, why are there no LIKE buttons on this forum lol. 

dw


----------



## llombardo

Dragonwyke said:


> i never called YOU a liar. i said if someone tells "you", as in anyone in general, then call them a liar and walk away. that's way different than calling someone a liar.
> 
> dw


All I'm saying is I posted in #26 my experience with someone that had a wolf as a pet and you posted in #46 how its not believable and if they say its a wolf they are a liar and walk away.... In my mind and the way it was worded anyone who has had a wolf or known someone to have a wolf is a liar because according to the post it just doesn't happen. It does happen...Its not only believable..I've seen it and it doesn't matter who understands it or not. I am positive that there are lots of people out there that have had success with raising a wolf or wolfdog. I am also positive that many have been unsuccessful. Unless we have a personal experience with it there is no way any of us can say what will happen in the long run. I have seen people with pet monkeys that were great and of course there are horror stories out there about pet monkeys. I personally worked with a tiger for years that was the biggest baby you would ever see--the llama I worked with was meaner then the tiger..then there are stories of people trying to raise them and they get in over their heads. I have known people that have pet raccoons with no problems and others that have. I even took in a sick raccoon that was the sweetest thing, he would sit in my lap and eat I have helped skunks out of bad situations and never been sprayed other people haven't been so lucky. There are always going to be two sides to the story as far as wild animals go and as opinionated as some are others are just as opinionated because they have seen the other side. I can honestly say I have never had a bad experience with any animal I have worked with and there have been many(wild and domesticated), if I did have a bad experience I would definitely say I did...well there was this situation one time with 2 GSD's and that wasn't even bad enough to prevent me from getting my own


----------



## msvette2u

Dragonwyke said:


> gotta agree w/this one too msvette, lol.


Is it a full moon?? :wild:

:rofl:


----------



## llombardo

msvette2u said:


> Oh my.
> I guarantee you domesticated dogs who by nonsocialization are feral (no human contact for the 1st 12 weeks of life, or minimal contact) do in no way shape or form "act like wolves".


I'm not talking about a dog that has no contact with humans for only the first 12 weeks, I'm talking about dogs that have no contact their entire lives...they will indeed take on the characteristics of wolves for survival, mating, etc. We have packs of dogs that live in the forest preserve so the behavior has been proven...a person can't go near them for any reason. They eat, sleep, and hunt in the wild and they are dogs.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

I talk to people who real wolf dogs on a regular basis and they own low contents to high contents. No they don't own wolf dogs for the "cool" factor. Yes they are responsible educated owners. They are VERY knowledgeable on wolf dogs and know what they are doing. They will be the first to tell you that owning a wolf dog is way different than owning a regular dog.

Also majority of people who claim to have wolf dog, don't really have one. Whenever someone tells me they own a wolf dog I don't take them seriously. Because most of the time they just have a Husky/GSD/Malamute/Some other breed Mix.

Do I think wolf dogs should be banned? No. As there are indeed responsible owners out there. BUT for the general public I believed they shouldn't be allowed to own regular dogs. Wolf dogs are NOT like regular dogs and someone needs to be educated and responsible when planning on owning one. Just like with owning a regular dog, GET EDUCATED. Do I plan on owning a wolf dog? Yes, BUT not until I am further educated and get some experience. More than likely I will rescue one.


----------



## msvette2u

> They eat, sleep, and hunt in the wild and they are dogs.


This is simply not true. 
If there was no contact how do you know about them...?
But more than that, I have seen dogs who lived feral their whole lives and they are not "just like wolves". They are like dogs, lost dogs, sad lost dogs because dogs are domesticated animals.
For a dog to "act just like a wolf", it would take generations of dogs living in the wild, to basically revert back to being wild. 
Dogs are like "wolf puppies", they never move beyond babyhood, because of domestication. 

The feral dog I knew did not "hunt" like a wolf, ****, he barely had food most days. He was also sickly (no genetic hardiness like wolves have) and ended up dying about a year or so after I first became aware of him.


----------



## llombardo

Verivus said:


> Okay, do you not understand the difference between domestic and wild?  What is the world coming to? It's like trying to breed a cat to a tiger and saying that it's perfectly okay to keep the offspring as a house pet. You sure aren't going to have any problems because you know, nurture is way more important then nature!



I understand the difference, but what I'm saying is that its a real fact that domesticated animals as we see them can be wild so what makes everyone so sure that wild animals can't be domesticated? Since you brought up cats(this is a good animal to use as an example for genetic purposes)... What are the odds of having a mean cat that bites its owner? Have you ever seen a feral cat or tried to approach one? Have you ever seen an stray cat that is as friendly as can be have kittens that are feral? Have you ever seen a six week old kitten shred a persons arm? Domesticated house cats aren't "genetically" bred to be mean but without socialization they become small versions of tigers(as seen in the wild) and they can tear a person up. This is where genetics and nature versus nurture does/doesn't come into play.


----------



## llombardo

msvette2u said:


> This is simply not true.
> If there was no contact how do you know about them...?
> But more than that, I have seen dogs who lived feral their whole lives and they are not "just like wolves". They are like dogs, lost dogs, sad lost dogs because dogs are domesticated animals.
> For a dog to "act just like a wolf", it would take generations of dogs living in the wild, to basically revert back to being wild.
> Dogs are like "wolf puppies", they never move beyond babyhood, because of domestication.
> 
> The feral dog I knew did not "hunt" like a wolf, ****, he barely had food most days. He was also sickly (no genetic hardiness like wolves have) and ended up dying about a year or so after I first became aware of him.



Here we go again, I'm telling you something I have experienced and your telling me its not true. It is simply the truth. Not that I have to prove anything but there have been warnings issued about these dogs, not to approach them, etc. They are rarely seen, but when they are they are confused with wolves--we don't have any wolves in this area. They are hunting deer, rabbit, and any other wild life, so YES that is wolf like in my opinion. From what I have seen(they have been investigated and there has been pictures of them-there are 3-5 of them) they are quite healthy and have been around for some time..I wouldn't consider these dogs feral they are wild dogs that have never had human contact or been fed a meal. They don't even have garbage cans to look for food, they are in a forest preserve living their life with coyotes, fox, deer, raccoons, skunks, etc and they eat what they live with. So yes it does happen, there is proof that it happens and just because its not an experience that people are aware of it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.


----------



## llombardo

Here I even found one of the articles about them since its so close to my home....

_A pack of elusive animals has prompted reports of multiple sightings.

So far, no one has been able to positively identify the four large animals.

The Sheriff’s Police took three reports between Sept. 1 and 3, each with a slightly different account. One report suggests the animals are golden retrievers, while another reports the animals are “large yellow labs.” The third report describes “four white dogs” in a backyard.

Where the sightings was first reported, other individuals have suggested the animals are wolves, a breed of sheepdog or possibly even a mix of a dog and a wolf.

The animals, who have alluded capture each time a sighting was reported, have no identification tags on and have been described as too large to be coyotes. They were captured on film after tripping the security cameras at about 9:15 p.m. Aug. 31.

Where the animals came from has yet to be determined, but with the Illinois and Michigan Canal running through town, it’s possible they traveled from somewhere else.


“I don’t remember any reports like this since I’ve been chief,” he said.

Although the animals have shown no violent tendencies, the police department encourages anyone who comes across these animals not to get too close.

“On occasion, they can be a little aggressive and we tell people never to take chances around any wild animals,” Shaughnessy said._


----------



## msvette2u

BTW I believe there are wolves in your state, or at least there's been wolf sightings.




> So far, no one has been able to positively identify the four large animals.


...interesting


----------



## llombardo

msvette2u said:


> BTW I believe there are wolves in your state, or at least there's been wolf sightings.
> 
> 
> 
> ...interesting


No wolf sightings reported as far as I know ...although we have had a couple cougars But I swear that I seen two wolves crossing the road late one night when I was driving past the forest preserve..they weren't coyotes and they were huge!! I had to stop the car because they crossed right in front of me and I just sat there staring at them rubbing my eyes:laugh: I never reported it but I'm almost positive thats what they were.


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## Verivus

I'm not even going to bother anymore, this is pointless.  Last thing I'm going to say, is that it is my opinion that WILD predatory animals, hybrid or not, do not have any place in modern society as a pet.


----------



## brembo

llombardo said:


> Here we go again, I'm telling you something I have experienced and your telling me its not true. It is simply the truth. Not that I have to prove anything but there have been warnings issued about these dogs, not to approach them, etc. They are rarely seen, but when they are they are confused with wolves--we don't have any wolves in this area. They are hunting deer, rabbit, and any other wild life, so YES that is wolf like in my opinion. From what I have seen(they have been investigated and there has been pictures of them-there are 3-5 of them) they are quite healthy and have been around for some time..I wouldn't consider these dogs feral they are wild dogs that have never had human contact or been fed a meal. They don't even have garbage cans to look for food, they are in a forest preserve living their life with coyotes, fox, deer, raccoons, skunks, etc and they eat what they live with. So yes it does happen, there is proof that it happens and just because its not an experience that people are aware of it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.


Semantics likely is the crux of the problem. 

Yes, there are likely some wolves that act like domesticated dogs, we humans had to start somewhere, so the rare curious wolf that is predisposed to not being so wild IS out there somewhere. Yes, domestic dogs will pack up and do some very wolfy things. Now saying that wolves in general are just a bit of nurture away from being a tractable pet is statistically wrong, very wrong. Saying that a domesticated dog is just a harsh upbringing from being a wolf is also very wrong. They share a lot of genes and abilities but they have some fundamental difference that make them separate (sub)species. 

Imagine someone stating that if by rearing a chimp in a human environment you'd end with essentially a smaller furry human. You'd tell them to hush up and go read a few biology books. It's a rather similar situation with dogs/wolves. There are radical physical differences in wolves and dogs, mainly to do with the neural development and maturity evolution.

Your statements are valid when focused on particular cases, however if applied to the homologous population of dogs or wolves becomes a falsehood. This is a danger of anecdotal evidence, what is true of a small selection may not apply to the overall population.


----------



## llombardo

brembo said:


> .
> 
> Imagine someone stating that if by rearing a chimp in a human environment you'd end with essentially a smaller furry human. You'd tell them to hush up and go read a few biology books.



Oh no, why did you have to use a chimp as an example Have you ever seen how smart a chimp can be? I would no doubt believe that a chimp could end up being comparable a smaller furry human(toddler size). I would never tell them to hush up and read a book. The fact is that some people have dedicated their lives to training animals like chimps and have taught them amazing things, like sign language, using the bathroom, etc. Gorillas also have an almost human instinct...for instance I've included the following story...


_A 3-year-old boy fell into an exhibit occupied by gorillas at the Brookfield Zoo this afternoon, and was rescued by a female gorilla that cradled the child and brought him to zookeepers.

The boy injured his head when he fell 18 feet onto the exhibit's concrete. He was alert when taken to a hospital, although his condition was later listed as critical.

Seven gorillas were on display in the exhibit. One of them, Binti, a 7-year-old female with a baby gorilla on her back, picked up the child, cradled him in her arms and placed him near a door where zookeepers could retrieve him, said Sondra Katzen, a spokeswoman for the zoo, 10 miles west of downtown Chicago.

Carrie Stewart, a visitor who witnessed the rescue, said, ''Another gorilla walked toward the boy, and she kind of turned around and walked away from the other gorillas and tried to be protective.''

In addition, zookeepers sprayed water on the exhibit to keep the other gorillas away from the boy, said a second spokeswoman, Melinda Pruett-Jones. ''They controlled the animals beautifully and had an emergency medical crew working on the little boy as soon as they possibly could,'' Ms. Pruett-Jones said
_


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## robinhuerta

llombardo....there have been Wolves reported in Illinois, actually not that far from me.
One was killed in a hunter's trap.....and the other was caught on night video cam in around Lena, Illinois. *The footage was on the news in this area...about a year ago.* It seems that the video taker...thought that is was a huge coyote....until the proper authorities were able to see it. There was no mistaken it for a coyote......it was a wolf.


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## llombardo

robinhuerta said:


> llombardo....there have been Wolves reported in Illinois, actually not that far from me.
> One was killed in a hunter's trap.....and the other was caught on night video cam in around Lena, Illinois. *The footage was on the news in this area...about a year ago.* It seems that the video taker...thought that is was a huge coyote....until the proper authorities were able to see it. There was no mistaken it for a coyote......it was a wolf.


I said as far as I know of Lena, Illinois is very far away from me so the news reports didn't reach here. I'll clarify that in my general area there has not been any reports of wolves, but I can see how it can happen that far north since its fairly close to Wisconsin and I'm guessing that eventually they will be here in Illinois in all areas.


----------



## robinhuerta

I would too would guess that they ventured down from Wisconsin.....there was a Cougar caught on video also. The nephew (24yrs old) of a co-worker, actually was involved with the sighting.....I posted the pic a couple of months back....


----------



## Falkosmom

Okay, now you have entered my arena of experience. I have been handling, taming, trapping, neutering, returning/relocating, rescuing sick/injured cats for many years _specializing_ in feral cats. I manage three feral cat colonies totaling fifty to sixty feral cats on the average.



llombardo said:


> What are the odds of having a mean cat that bites its owner?


The chances are excellent. Cats bite all the time, with less reservation than most dogs. I have had to seek medical treatment for my own cat biting me. Another cat of mine bit my vet and she had to go to the emergency room. A coworker spent time in the hospital for being bitten by her own cat. There is nothing unusual about a domestic cat biting. 



llombardo said:


> Have you ever seen an stray cat that is as friendly as can be have kittens that are feral?


I had a friendly cat that snuck out before I could get her spayed, she had four kittens that had no use for people, though not feral, they were very fearful and avoiding. 



llombardo said:


> Domesticated house cats aren't "genetically" bred to be mean but without socialization they become small versions of tigers(as seen in the wild) and they can tear a person up.


There was a orange and black tortoiseshell feral cat I was trying to catch. She had two litters before being trapped. The tortie kittens that looked like her were always very feral and never tamed well. On the other hand, every kitten from the litters that were orange loved people and did not have to be trapped. They were among the sweetest kittens I ever met.
They actually preferred people over their mother and siblings and craved human attention and affection.



llombardo said:


> This is where genetics and nature versus nurture does/doesn't come into play.


Genetics determine which cats/kittens could be socialized to the point of being wonderful pets vs cats that would make mediocre pets but would need lifetime socialization to keep them from reverting back to feral.

And just an interesting tidbit of information I observed, feral cats quickly get over any fear and reservations about dogs, it is humans that elicit major fear aggression.


----------



## llombardo

robinhuerta said:


> I would too would guess that they ventured down from Wisconsin.....there was a Cougar caught on video also. The nephew (24yrs old) of a co-worker, actually was involved with the sighting.....I posted the pic a couple of months back....



Now we have had cougars closer to where I am...I think there has been three or four of them and all of them were destroyed. They never actually let the public know, but they originally thought the first one was possibly someone's pet that they let go and then more popped up, so that thinking might have changed!! I think that the traveling time and distance of the cougar is much bigger then the wolf. Like I said before I still believe that what I seen crossing the street were two wolves, but I can't prove that and I'm not sure I want to The biggest problem we have are the coyotes, they are everywhere--even in the city I have one coyote here that actually came up to the door and was nose to nose in the sliding glass door with my golden retriever, he seemed to be curious and when the golden growled he took off about 15 feet and just stood there looking at me. And skunks, I have lots of skunks around me, I see them in the back so I go out the front way with the dogs and the next thing I know the skunk is peeking around the corner looking at me..all for avoiding him.


----------



## webdome

Verivus said:


> Last thing I'm going to say, is that it is my opinion that WILD predatory animals, hybrid or not, do not have any place in modern society as a pet.


 What you call hybrid, i call wolf /huskies mix had saved my life. I would listen your opinion, but please don't be opinionated.


----------



## robinhuerta

llombardo....where are you in Illinois? The cougar issue would actually concern me more than the Wolves.


----------



## marshies

I would just like to say.

Domestication is the long process that we took with animals like dogs, pigs and chickens so that they are adapted to live with humans. They are not wild. There is a genetic change in domestication.

Tameness is achieved within the animal's lifetime. It's making the animal less fearful of humans, decreasing its flight distance.

So while it is POSSIBLE to tame any animal, it is specific to THAT animal and a set of conditions. Wolves aren't domesticated and are not genetically disposed to live with humans. Select wolves probably could be tamed and be pets for select humans...but the phenomenon should not be encouraged.


----------



## llombardo

Falkosmom said:


> Okay, now you have entered my arena of experience. I have been handling, taming, trapping, neutering, returning/relocating, rescuing sick/injured cats for many years _specializing_ in feral cats. I manage three feral cat colonies totaling fifty to sixty feral cats on the average.*So you are the reason why I have so many feral cats in my neighborhood..just kidding We did have someone that started bringing them here after they were fixed!! I have also been dealing with feral cats for about 20 years. I presently own 2 that were feral*
> 
> 
> 
> The chances are excellent. Cats bite all the time, with less reservation than most dogs. I have had to seek medical treatment for my own cat biting me. Another cat of mine bit my vet and she had to go to the emergency room. A coworker spent time in the hospital for being bitten by her own cat. There is nothing unusual about a domestic cat biting. *I have never been bitten by a house cat(unless they were a kitten or in play mode) and I've never met anyone else that has been bitten or attacked by a house cat either and I have had cats for 40 years. I have been bitten by feral cats so I know that a cat bite can really hurt and it can be dangerous--I just picked one up at my work..he was very sick and when I brought him in(my boss wasn't happy) I was trying to keep him in the box and he bit me quite badly, but that was my fault.*
> 
> 
> 
> I had a friendly cat that snuck out before I could get her spayed, she had four kittens that had no use for people, though not feral, they were very fearful and avoiding. *My experience was a friendly outdoor cat that had kittens, I took her in and she was a wonderful cat, but the kittens could not be saved..I tried working with them from the time they were about 4 weeks or so..I caught them and brought them in and nothing I did helped them-genetically speaking they came from a good cat, but being born and being without human contact for that short time did them in *
> 
> 
> 
> There was a orange and black tortoiseshell feral cat I was trying to catch. She had two litters before being trapped. The tortie kittens that looked like her were always very feral and never tamed well. On the other hand, every kitten from the litters that were orange loved people and did not have to be trapped. They were among the sweetest kittens I ever met.
> They actually preferred people over their mother and siblings and craved human attention and affection.
> 
> 
> 
> Genetics determine which cats/kittens could be socialized to the point of being wonderful pets vs cats that would make mediocre pets but would need lifetime socialization to keep them from reverting back to feral.*I disagree with this because a good cat can have feral cats and if genetics played a roll the kittens would have the same or close to the same dispostion as mom*
> 
> And just an interesting tidbit of information I observed, feral cats quickly get over any fear and reservations about dogs, it is humans that elicit major fear aggression.*This I agree with 150%, I thought it was the craziest thing but when I was trying to catch the one feral I have now the dog drew her out..to this day she is extremely close to all the dogs..She sleeps on them, rubs against them and they let her Sometimes the only way I can pet her is if the dogs are around because if they are there so is she*/quote]


----------



## Verivus

webdome said:


> What you call hybrid, i call wolf /huskies mix had saved my life. I would listen your opinion, but please don't be opinionated.


That's nice. A wolfdog is not a dog, it is a hybrid. And go look at how many more maul little children and adults. Probably a lot more then those saving people. And it's quite impossible to not be opinionated seeing as how I am human; you apparently have your own so don't be opinionated yourself if you want to dole out said advice.


----------



## llombardo

marshies said:


> I would just like to say.
> 
> Domestication is the long process that we took with animals like dogs, pigs and chickens so that they are adapted to live with humans. They are not wild. There is a genetic change in domestication.
> 
> Tameness is achieved within the animal's lifetime. It's making the animal less fearful of humans, decreasing its flight distance.
> 
> So while it is POSSIBLE to tame any animal, it is specific to THAT animal and a set of conditions. Wolves aren't domesticated and are not genetically disposed to live with humans. Select wolves probably could be tamed and be pets for select humans...but the phenomenon should not be encouraged.


Nicely put and I do not encourage having a wolf as a pet, I think it takes away from what they are meant to be, but thats just an opinion and of course there are people out there that take on the responsibility of owning a wolf(or any other wild animal) and that is there opinion...the only thing that can stop them is the law


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## Falkosmom

*"I disagree with this because a good cat can have feral cats and if genetics played a roll the kittens would have the same or close to the same dispostion as mom" llombardo*

And the father contributes nothing to the genetic temperament?


----------



## llombardo

robinhuerta said:


> llombardo....where are you in Illinois? The cougar issue would actually concern me more than the Wolves.



I'm in Dupage county. The one cougar was right in Chicago-the actual north side of the city, the police officer shot that one. There was one in Wilmette right before this and they couldn't determine if it was the same one. There was a possible sighting of another one about a month ago about 5 miles from my house. When the police got there, they didn't find anything so who knows what it was and where it went From what I read there has been sightings in all different areas of Illinois, even down South. The one in Chicago and the one spotted by my house were actually in broad daylight which is even more concerning There main food source is deer and they were native to Illinois at one time, so I'm guessing eventually they will join us in our already over populated wild animal world According to research I've read they believe that they will become active here again also--they can travel several hundred miles if need be for food(which we have plenty of here in Illinois) All its gonna take is for a pregnant one to wander this way and they will be back home!!


----------



## llombardo

Falkosmom said:


> *"I disagree with this because a good cat can have feral cats and if genetics played a roll the kittens would have the same or close to the same dispostion as mom" llombardo*
> 
> And the father contributes nothing to the genetic temperament?


I'm sorry I didn't mention that in this situation the people owned mom and dad--both house pets and both very friendly cats..once she got pregnant they decided they didn't want her and out she went and so she began her life as an outdoor kitty, pretty sad situation but it happens I ended up with a very good cat she wasn't outside for long--long enough to have the kittens outside and for me to decide what to do with 6 cats!!


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## webdome

Verivus said:


> And go look at how many more maul little children and adults. Probably a lot more then those saving people.


Would you please direct me to the data. Otherwise it is just your guess.

Fortunately, dogs were breed to do the work, or to help humans do the work. For obvious reasons, gene pool in wild are more versatile compare to standardizes breeds. So, if breeder looking for special traits, that can't be found at domesticated dogs, it is normal to look at wild gene pool. I hope you understand the most dog breeds are not older than 3 centuries.



> And it's quite impossible to not be opinionated seeing as how I am human; you apparently have your own so don't be opinionated yourself if you want to dole out said advice.


Epic, but to be a humane means to be intelligent enough to determine the difference not to be an animal.


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## jetscarbie

My husband knew a lady that owned wolf dogs. There was a wolf mom dog that was killed in the woods and her husband bought the baby home that they found.

She eventually breed her with a male malamute (sp?). My husband took one of the puppies and gave it to his dad. You couldn't deny that was a part wolf at all. The howl that dog would make at night was enough to make the hair on your arm stand up. A very different sound from a normal dog. We couldn't find ANY vet that would touch him. Well, I take that back...we did find one that gave him a basic checkup when he was smaller...but he wouldn't give him any shots.

Our experience with him was iffy. He wasn't mean at all, but he was very hard to contain. Very hard. He just didn't care for regular dog food either. It wasn't uncommon to see him with rabbits or deer. He use to chew on our car's tires (while they were still attached to the car) Our neighbor put out a bunch of pumpkins for Halloween. A huge display. The next day....all the pumpkins were in our yard. He stole things all the time. The older he got...the more he started getting out and staying gone for days. I warn my FIL what would happen if he didn't get something better to put him in. We found him a couple of days later...shot in a ditch.

After what me and my hubby watched and experienced....we would never ever take on an animal like that. (by the way, this happened about 17 years ago)


----------



## Verivus

webdome said:


> Would you please direct me to the data. Otherwise it is just your guess.
> 
> Fortunately, dogs were breed to do the work, or to help humans do the work. For obvious reasons, gene pool in wild are more versatile compare to standardizes breeds. So, if breeder looking for special traits, that can't be found at domesticated dogs, it is normal to look at wild gene pool. I hope you understand the most dog breeds are not older than 3 centuries.
> 
> Epic, but to be a humane means to be intelligent enough to determine the difference not to be an animal.


So your personal experience trumps that of everyone else right?  If you want the evidence go look for yourself; google's there for a reason and I can't be bothered to look it up for you. I'm not the one who wants that information. How do you know your supposed hybrid was even truly hybrid? Anything mixed with husky has the possibility to look wolf-like and most people who claim they had wolf hybrids never did.

You're right, most dogs were bred to do work and most breeds have not been established for a long time. However, I do not see established breeds of today looking at "the wild gene pool". No idea where you even heard that idea. I see the exact opposite; they do not even entertain the idea of adding wolf genetics. So how about _you_ direct _me_ to that data.  

Also, I hope you're not saying I or anyone else here are "not human" just because we have a strong opinion because I see no one acting like animals. How insulting and idiotic.  Though maybe you're idea of "acting like animals" and my idea of "acting like animals" is quite different?


----------



## msvette2u

llombardo said:


> No wolf sightings reported as far as I know ...although we have had a couple cougars But I swear that I seen two wolves crossing the road late one night when I was driving past the forest preserve..they weren't coyotes and they were huge!! I had to stop the car because they crossed right in front of me and I just sat there staring at them rubbing my eyes:laugh: I never reported it but I'm almost positive thats what they were.


Seriously!? I figured it would be obvious and I wouldn't have to copy the link myself.
Wildlife Directory: Gray Wolf ? Living with Wildlife ? University of Illinois Extension


----------



## mosul210

msvette2u said:


> But you own a "wolf dog"? One whom you are not sure yet who it will take after primarily, the wolf side or dog side??
> 
> That's like getting a Labra-doodle and stating you'd never live with a Poodle. You cannot be sure which the puppy will act like most, a Lab or a Poodle.


 
LOL....interesting topic, and I wish I had the time to invest in it but alas I do not. I see a lot of google and "I used to know this person" quotes but not many actual experience. Let me say this, when it comes to wolf behavior the "F" generation is more important than content. The F generation tells you how many generations the animal has been removed from the pure wolf. An F1 will act much more wolf like than a higher content F4 who has 4 generations removed from wolf.

Because I am not here often let me leave you with this. Wolfdogs and yes they are dogs not hybrids since we are talking abou the same species are here to stay. My recommendation is to learn as much as possible and not fall victim to misinformation. BTW this is a great site with a lot of experience folks, glad to be a member of it.


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## msvette2u

The Daily Coyote

I read this when we had an orphan coyote pup, even contacted the gal. 
Since there's no "seasons" on coyotes here, well, it's open season all year long, we ended up finally finding a sanctuary that'd take him - on the west side of the state!
It was that or have him euth'ed as a puppy, which I could barely think of doing. 

I agree with Verivus - there's no place in our society for wolf-dogs, not just because of how difficult an actual wolf-dog can be to manage, but because the breeding of these creatures is such a horrid and inhumane process.



> Wolfdogs and yes they are dogs not hybrids since we are talking abou the same species are here to stay. My recommendation is to learn as much as possible and not fall victim to misinformation.


Misinformation? So you don't want to post as a firsthand owner, but you say don't fall victim to misinformation?
How old is your puppy? Is this your first wolf-dog experience??

The information I rely on comes from Wolf Haven, a place I've been to numerous times, since they have indeed rescued a number of wolf-dogs, they are, IMO, a good source of information. 

It is simply wrong. It is wrong to acquire (capture) and breed a wolf. Period.
I do think as more incidents crop up, government may attempt to legislate breeding. 
As stated elsewhere there's many states where owning one is illegal.


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## Verivus

mosul210 said:


> LOL....interesting topic, and I wish I had the time to invest in it but alas I do not. I see a lot of google and "I used to know this person" quotes but not many actual experience. Let me say this, when it comes to wolf behavior the "F" generation is more important than content. The F generation tells you how many generations the animal has been removed from the pure wolf. An F1 will act much more wolf like than a higher content F4 who has 4 generations removed from wolf.
> 
> Because I am not here often let me leave you with this. Wolfdogs and yes they are dogs not hybrids since we are talking abou the same species are here to stay. My recommendation is to learn as much as possible and not fall victim to misinformation. BTW this is a great site with a lot of experience folks, glad to be a member of it.


Wolf mixes are not dogs. They are hybrids. Mix a tiger and a lion and you get a hybrid animal. Horse and a zebra, hybrid animal. Wolf and a dog, hybrid animal. Since you apparently know more about wolf hybrids then any of us here, please enlighten me as to why anyone would want such a hybrid? I would think anyone who did the proper research would NOT want such a thing. At least, that's how I felt when I did my research, so it boggles my mind when people get one.

I will admit I have no idea if you're right pertaining to F generations. I suppose it would be if they were properly selected for breeding according to temperament. In the end if they keep moving away from the wolf, they would just end up with another Czechoslovakian wolfdog or Saarloos (that's what it sounds like to me anyway). If that were so, what's the point of recreating what already exists?


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## Freestep

mosul210 said:


> My recommendation is to learn as much as possible and not fall victim to misinformation.


I hardly call the experience of living with a wolfdog for a year "misinformation". It was a terrible mistake both myself and the wolfdog suffered for, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. If anyone wants to know what it's really like living with such an animal, feel free to ask.

Maybe you will have better luck with yours. If it is a low content wolfdog, you may not have the same issues--but you never know what genetic bag you're holding. I am sure you think you know what you're doing, just as I did. 

As I said, I don't wish a bad experience on anyone. Trouble is, if you have a good experience, and tell people "my wolfdog is sweet, obedient, easy to handle, and never destroyed anything", it only furthers the cycle of breeding and selling these animals to people who are now under the impression that a wolfdog is a perfect pet.

It's unethical, and unfair to the animals, and the unsuspecting buyers. There are no "reputable" breeders of wolfdogs, because anyone mixing wolves and dogs for the pet market is irresponsible by definition. It's a whole new level of BYB breeding and "designer" mix breeds. If the buyer is lucky, they'll get a mixed-breed with so little wolf in it (or none) that they won't have problems, and the only cost is whatever amount they paid for what they thought was a "wolfdog". In the worst case scenario, they will get an animal that has so many wolfish behaviors that they cannot handle it and tragedy occurs.

I don't generally have a problem with what breeds people choose to own, as long as they are responsible and diligent owners. But in the case of wolfdogs, you're supporting an unethical, irresponsible practice if you purchase a pup from a breeder, and it does a disservice to everyone... except perhaps the breeder, who is lining his pockets with your hard-earned cash and laughing all the way to the bank, producing more and more animals that will eventually end up in shelters, sanctuaries, or dead. Great, isn't it?


----------



## llombardo

msvette2u said:


> Seriously!? I figured it would be obvious and I wouldn't have to copy the link myself.
> Wildlife Directory: Gray Wolf ? Living with Wildlife ? University of Illinois Extension


As I stated clearly above....*AS FAR AS I KNOW* and again as I stated these areas are all relatively close to Wisconsin--no where near me, so I would never hear anything about it. It even says in the study that the likely were from Wisconsin and that its very possible that they travel through here to get somewhere else. It also states that its impossible to state if they were truly wild or wolf dog hybrids that escaped and at this point there is no evidence that wolves live in Illinois.


----------



## Seer

"The F generation tells you how many generations the animal has been removed from the pure wolf. An F1 will act much more wolf like than a higher content F4 who has 4 generations removed from wolf."

This is a good point. I just ran into one of the many liars spoken about throughout this thread. I saw what I thought was DDR Wolf mix in the back of a truck. He turned out to be a pure wolf, or his owner was a liar for some of you. 

I was warned by the shepherd that was in the back of the truck to be careful on approach, but went straight up to the wolf and pet and played with him tell the owner was off the phone. 

This wolf turned out to be a F-3. But all wolf, he had not been watered down with dog at all, to the very knowledgeable owners information. The owner had seen and knew both parents of his pet. Of course there is a chance he is a liar or they lied about the past parents. I had no reason to believe he was not forth coming with the info he shared over the next couple of hours.

Just like breeding in or out for the traits you want i can see how its possible to get to what he had. Especially further down the F chain. But besides being one of the most B As ed looking dogs I have seen, I was left wondering, why?

I dont think it can be argued that most are more then a handful and some can be dangerous but that can also be applied to many Shepherds in a forum for poodle owners... yes.. yes.

Question: Is their any good reason to breed a wolf and a Shepherd, since we are in a Shepherd forum. Does anyone know of anyone getting a better nose for search and rescue, for instance or any other instance where there have be benefits. Real examples if there are any would be great.

Otherwise: Why?


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## msvette2u

Breeding should only be done to better the breed. 
With this in mind, what would be the purpose of breeding wolves to dogs, other than to get a "cool" looking "dog"?? And as originally pointed out, these breeders cater to those who want a "bad a**" dog!


----------



## Seer

msvette2u said:


> Breeding should only be done to better the breed.
> With this in mind, what would be the purpose of breeding wolves to dogs, other than to get a "cool" looking "dog"?? And as originally pointed out, these breeders cater to those who want a "bad a**" dog!


Right:

Does anyone know of anyone getting a better nose for search and rescue, for instance or any other instance where there have be benefits. Real examples if there are any would be great. ???


----------



## msvette2u

Oh, yes. Sorry, I guess real arguments vs. supposed events don't count?

I cannot imagine anyone doing tracking with a wolf-dog, perhaps, _maybe_ for fun, but not for real SAR, so good luck with that...but we'll see


----------



## PupperLove

msvette2u said:


> Breeding should only be done to better the breed.
> With this in mind, what would be the purpose of breeding wolves to dogs, other than to get a "cool" looking "dog"?? And as originally pointed out, these breeders cater to those who want a "bad a**" dog!


Idk msvette, I think some just love the idea of domesticating something from the wild, whether it's the real thing or part wild, and having it in the house. It honest to god freaks me out, I wouldn't be able to sleep at night, LOL  

I know as a kid I thought it would be awesome to have a wolf, as did many other kids. People carry that into adulthood I think. I also think a lot of times people get the notion that they can have something wild and _it will be fine_. Everything will be fine because so much stress is put on "it's all in how you raise it"... how many times have we all heard that? A LOT. I personally strongly disagree with that statement, and many times it's not how you raise an animal, only half of how an animal turns out is nuture IMO, the rest is genetics. As long as people are buying into that statement and carrying out their childhood fantasies there will always be a market for hybrids.


----------



## Freestep

Seer said:


> This wolf turned out to be a F-3. But all wolf, he had not been watered down with dog at all,


Now how does that work? Either he's an F3 hybrid, or a pure wolf, he can't be both.


----------



## PupperLove

Freestep said:


> Now how does that work? Either he's an F3 hybrid, or a pure wolf, he can't be both.


maybe they meant 3 generations of 'domesticated' wolf?? idk.


----------



## JoMichelle

I didn't read through this whole thread, I got to the arguments and headed directly the the last page. I think it's a fascinating concept to live with a wolfdog. To me, that is a wild animal. I'd love to hear anyone's personal experience of living with one, their temperament and behaviour. 

I'd LOVE to own one, but I'm certain I'm not a strong enough leader. It can be a dream  I also "personally" think people should have to obtain some kind of license to own any wolf hybrid. I actually don't know what the current laws are and this could well be law for all I know.


----------



## llombardo

JoMichelle said:


> I didn't read through this whole thread, I got to the arguments and headed directly the the last page. I think it's a fascinating concept to live with a wolfdog. To me, that is a wild animal. I'd love to hear anyone's personal experience of living with one, their temperament and behaviour.
> 
> I'd LOVE to own one, but I'm certain I'm not a strong enough leader. It can be a dream  I also "personally" think people should have to obtain some kind of license to own any wolf hybrid. I actually don't know what the current laws are and this could well be law for all I know.



Where I live its illegal to have any form of wolf.


----------



## Seer

msvette2u said:


> Oh, yes. Sorry, I guess real arguments vs. supposed events don't count?
> 
> I cannot imagine anyone doing tracking with a wolf-dog, perhaps, _maybe_ for fun, but not for real SAR, so good luck with that...but we'll see


I cant imagine anyone working a Jakel, but yet.... They do. Thats kinda a real argument... What do you mean "So good luck with what".. ?? 

If there can be a use from the blending, sit the emotion on a chair and look from reason. I have not seen anyone benefit from this mix and am curious if any have.


----------



## Seer

PupperLove said:


> maybe they meant 3 generations of 'domesticated' wolf?? idk.



This is it. My understanding is the F is not in a diluted with, but from wild. So F1 is first generation from wild. I dont think it has anything to do with mixing.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

years ago, my neighbor moved back home from being in the army. He brought with him a wolf/cross that he purchased I believe in the northwest somewhere. 

Beautiful dog, however, it's temperament and behaviors were like no 'dog' I'd ever seen, very very timid, totally ignored people (as in run away), jumped at the smallest sound. Howled like a banshee. It was not even the worst 'dog' behavior, it was a wild animal behavior.

Anyhow, he used to pass it off as a husky mix, because wolf/mixes were illegal here. He moved in his girlfriend and 5 yr old daughter. Kept the dog(s) in a kennel during the day,,the 5 yr old decided one day to stick her hand thru the kennel, and almost had her hand ripped off..The "dog" would not let go.

Of course AC/cops got involved, he admitted what the dog was, and it was also dna'd /blood test whatever they did, to confirm ..The "dog" was sent to live at a wolf sanctuary..

I think they are beautiful animals, not sure why one would want to own one especially like my neighbors. If they are more dog like (low content I guess), than that's one thing, but the unpredicatability in a wild animal is just that unpredictable.

I tend to like 'predictable')

At one point we had someone in town who had a pet cougar, used to drive around with the cat in his car. This was years ago, before they passed laws making owning exotic animals illegal here.

In fact, it's stiffer penalties now, we have an 'amnesty' day coming up here in CT, where you can turn over your exotic animals with no repurcussion.

Anyone ever heard of Charla Nash?? The lady who had her body just about destroyed by a friends "pet" Chimp??? Gruesome very sad story


----------



## Freestep

Seer said:


> This is it. My understanding is the F is not in a diluted with, but from wild. So F1 is first generation from wild. I dont think it has anything to do with mixing.


Where did you get your knowledge of genetics?


----------



## GrammaD

Seer said:


> I cant imagine anyone working a Jakel, but yet.... They do. Thats kinda a real argument... What do you mean "So good luck with what".. ??
> 
> If there can be a use from the blending, sit the emotion on a chair and look from reason. I have not seen anyone benefit from this mix and am curious if any have.


The jackal hybrid (Sulimov Dog) was the result of 7 generations of quarter-hybrid to quarter-hybrid breeding and then an intensive series of breeding in dogs for another multiple generations until Sulimov finally had something biddable. 

The only difference between them and the breeds normally used for nose work is that they take more initiative, which is probably the result of breeding in a healthy dose of terrier 

The same results could have been had from crossbreeding dogs. Especially when one considers how very dilute the jackal is in the end "product."


----------



## PupperLove

JakodaCD OA said:


> years ago, my neighbor moved back home from being in the army. He brought with him a wolf/cross that he purchased I believe in the northwest somewhere.
> 
> Beautiful dog, however, it's temperament and behaviors were like no 'dog' I'd ever seen, very very timid, totally ignored people (as in run away), jumped at the smallest sound. Howled like a banshee. It was not even the worst 'dog' behavior, it was a wild animal behavior.
> 
> Anyhow, he used to pass it off as a husky mix, because wolf/mixes were illegal here. He moved in his girlfriend and 5 yr old daughter. Kept the dog(s) in a kennel during the day,,the 5 yr old decided one day to stick her hand thru the kennel, and almost had her hand ripped off..The "dog" would not let go.
> 
> Of course AC/cops got involved, he admitted what the dog was, and it was also dna'd /blood test whatever they did, to confirm ..The "dog" was sent to live at a wolf sanctuary..
> 
> I think they are beautiful animals, not sure why one would want to own one especially like my neighbors. If they are more dog like (low content I guess), than that's one thing, but the unpredicatability in a wild animal is just that unpredictable.
> 
> I tend to like 'predictable')
> 
> At one point we had someone in town who had a pet cougar, used to drive around with the cat in his car. This was years ago, before they passed laws making owning exotic animals illegal here.
> 
> In fact, it's stiffer penalties now, we have an 'amnesty' day coming up here in CT, where you can turn over your exotic animals with no repurcussion.
> 
> Anyone ever heard of Charla Nash?? The lady who had her body just about destroyed by a friends "pet" Chimp??? Gruesome very sad story


Personally I would be afraid for my children if our neighbors had any type of hybrid animal, and to have a wild animal cross around children is far too risky if you ask me, that poor little girl 

A COUGAR? I don't know whether to laugh or drop my jaw, that's completley insane! I am scared to death of cougars!


----------



## GrammaD

Seer said:


> This is it. My understanding is the F is not in a diluted with, but from wild. So F1 is first generation from wild. I dont think it has anything to do with mixing.




F1 means the first filial generation from cross mating.


----------



## Seer

Freestep said:


> Where did you get your knowledge of genetics?


Clearly I didnt.. I was just looking up what the F meant went you posted. The wolf was pure my description of the F was incorrect. I thought it referred to generations from wild. Thanks for the correction.


----------



## SunshineWolf

Hello everyone,

I'm new here and just wanted to say there is a lot of misinformation being slung around about Wolfdogs. 

Before I go further here is a bit of my background, I have 4 years working with pure wolves in a few different South Florida facilities and also have 2.5 years of working with rescues from High Content to Low content wolfdogs. I personally own 2 upper mid wolfdogs one being and F6 and the other an F2 and also 2 working line GSD's. 

I have seen many good cases and some pretty crappy ones. These animals are not for everyone and take a strong minded individual with patience to properly own and raise one. They can be house trained easily with the right approach and timing in their development stage which I bring up because based on the internet world and what you read its impossible to do such a thing, as so are many of the myth's spread about these animals. They can be very social in public with both people and other animals of all sizes, again, if raised properly. 

Another thing that is rarely considered is that most if not all wolves and wolfdogs that are bred in the US all come from captive bred and domesticated lines that originated in many now closed Fur farms. Some of these lines are 60 years old and have had a fair share of selective breeding to produce animals that were more stable for containment/handling.

The best advice I could give someone interested in these animals is volunteer at your local Sanctuary or rescue, learn from hands on experience and steer clear of a lot of the hype written about them on the internet.

In the next few days I'll try my best to share with you all some of my animals and experiences, I look forward to meeting some new friends and checking out some beautiful GSD's.


----------



## Freestep

SunshineWolf said:


> I'm new here and just wanted to say there is a lot of misinformation being slung around about Wolfdogs.


Everyone keeps talking about all this "misinformation", but no one is saying what that "misinformation" is. So, can you be more specific? What is it that we've been hearing or saying, that is wrong or untrue?


----------



## SunshineWolf

msvette2u said:


> Breeding should only be done to better the breed.
> With this in mind, what would be the purpose of breeding wolves to dogs, other than to get a "cool" looking "dog"?? And as originally pointed out, these breeders cater to those who want a "bad a**" dog!


Health is a good reason.


----------



## PupperLove

SunshineWolf I would love to hear more, it sounds like you may be able to enlighten us. They're fascinating but CLEARLY not for me!!!!


----------



## Seer

GrammaD said:


> The jackal hybrid (Sulimov Dog) was the result of 7 generations of quarter-hybrid to quarter-hybrid breeding and then an intensive series of breeding in dogs for another multiple generations until Sulimov finally had something biddable.
> 
> The only difference between them and the breeds normally used for nose work is that they take more initiative, which is probably the result of breeding in a healthy dose of terrier
> 
> The same results could have been had from crossbreeding dogs. Especially when one considers how very dilute the jackal is in the end "product."


No kidding on the terrier.. Ha

Do you believe that he just made a mistake and kept going to save face? Diluting the jackal to irrelevance? They spent a crap load of money getting to the end product.


----------



## mosul210

Freestep said:


> I hardly call the experience of living with a wolfdog for a year "misinformation". It was a terrible mistake both myself and the wolfdog suffered for, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. If anyone wants to know what it's really like living with such an animal, feel free to ask.
> 
> Maybe you will have better luck with yours. If it is a low content wolfdog, you may not have the same issues--but you never know what genetic bag you're holding. I am sure you think you know what you're doing, just as I did.


Sorry to hear things did not work out with your wolfdog, this breed is not ment for everyone.

Aslo using personal experience is good but keep it subjective. Lets say I tried to raise a pure GSD and failed miserable how would it look if I came in here and told everyone GDSs do not make good pets just because I tried and failed!

We can have an adult conversation or we can continue to spiral into an abyss in which we try to show our counterpart how much more we know than they do. Lets try to keep the discussion going without the condesending attitudes.


----------



## SunshineWolf

Freestep said:


> Everyone keeps talking about all this "misinformation", but no one is saying what that "misinformation" is. So, can you be more specific? What is it that we've been hearing or saying, that is wrong or untrue?


Take some time to read factual research about WD's and Wolves in captivity, current studies, and you will read some of what has been posted in a few different threads and facepalm yourself, lol. 

Instead of going back, lets move forward. 

I have a friend and breeder that is in the first stages of her breeding program where she is taking working line GSD's from france and crossing them with her F6 wolfdogs. So far temperaments are great, workability is questionable as most of the first generation owners keep them as pets. You can take a look at her progress here Blue Bay Shepherds - Home

Now the interesting part is, it has been very common for many animals that contain the black dilute/ blue gene to have health problems, where her blue line of wolfdogs (timberwolf/GSD crosses) that she has been breeding for over 25 years are free from most of these degenerative diseases. She is going to be keeping a close eye to see if this trait gets passed on to the Blue Bay Shepherds and their progency. This would be a great example of bettering a breed.


----------



## Courtney

good grief, just because you _can_ cross breed doesn't mean you _should_.


----------



## Syaoransbear

Why do people get a wolf dog if what they actually want is something that acts like a dog? Why not just get a dog?

I have a hard time giving any support to wolf dogs when I'm sure 99% of people who have them got them because of their appearance and not because of their temperament or because they feel they would be a good addition to their family and their lifestyle.


----------



## SunshineWolf

Here is a picture of my adult male "Pyro" greeting a couple at Tropical Park Bark Park in miami, FL.


----------



## Syaoransbear

SunshineWolf said:


> Here is a picture of my adult male "Pyro" greeting a couple at Tropical Park Bark Park in miami, FL.


Hah after the OP gave the link to your forum your wolfdog is the one I stalked pictures of .


----------



## GrammaD

That site..... dear god.....


----------



## SunshineWolf

Syaoransbear said:


> Why do people get a wolf dog if what they actually want is something that acts like a dog? Why not just get a dog?
> 
> I have a hard time giving any support to wolf dogs when I'm sure 99% of people who have them got them because of their appearance and not because of their temperament or because they feel they would be a good addition to their family and their lifestyle.


Why purchase a GSD? I have two and never intended to use them for working. Most people purchase a breed that for some reason fancy's them.


----------



## Seer

SunshineWolf said:


> Take some time to read factual research about WD's and Wolves in captivity, current studies, and you will read some of what has been posted in a few different threads and facepalm yourself, lol.
> 
> Instead of going back, lets move forward.
> 
> I have a friend and breeder that is in the first stages of her breeding program where she is taking working line GSD's from france and crossing them with her F6 wolfdogs. So far temperaments are great, workability is questionable as most of the first generation owners keep them as pets. You can take a look at her progress here Blue Bay Shepherds - Home
> 
> 
> Should be interesting to see what benefits besides health may come from this. Some nice looking animals their.
> 
> Also take what comes next from people with a grain of salt from this post. It wont be long before you may get pile driven by some of the purist's. Lots of emotion here. Thanks for the posting in.


----------



## Freestep

SunshineWolf said:


> Take some time to read factual research about WD's and Wolves in captivity, current studies, and you will read some of what has been posted in a few different threads and facepalm yourself, lol.


So, you can't be more specific, then? 

Having lived with a wolfdog for a year, I dare you to tell me I don't have any "factual research" under my belt. All I'm asking is, what is the "misinformation" YOU are seeing, specifically? Are you here to educate?


----------



## SunshineWolf

GrammaD said:


> That site..... dear god.....


Yes I agree, some great example of ownership, and well some not so very good examples.

And if your comment is directed towards the BlueBay site, that site was created and donated by one of the BBS owners.


----------



## SunshineWolf

Freestep said:


> So, you can't be more specific, then?
> 
> Having lived with a wolfdog for a year, I dare you to tell me I don't have any "factual research" under my belt. All I'm asking is, what is the "misinformation" YOU are seeing, specifically? Are you here to educate?


A year with a wolfdog and you think you are capable of judging them as a whole?

Who raised it, how was it raised/socialized, what kind of enrichment did the animal have on a daily basis?

And most importantly what lines did this animal come from?

I'm here to educate the best I can and learn from the board as well.


----------



## Freestep

SunshineWolf said:


> I have a friend and breeder that is in the first stages of her breeding program where she is taking working line GSD's from france and crossing them with her F6 wolfdogs. So far temperaments are great, workability is questionable as most of the first generation owners keep them as pets. You can take a look at her progress here Blue Bay Shepherds - Home


I'm not even going to that link because it will only make me angry. It's been done before, folks, many times over, with results that are questionable at best.


----------



## SunshineWolf

Freestep said:


> I'm not even going to that link because it will only make me angry. It's been done before, folks, many times over, with results that are questionable at best.


Yes but not this way, taking in documented and tested healthy animals from verified lines and crossing them with documented healthy well temperamented animals. There are few people that have put in the proper work, one being alaskan nobles. These are not backyard breeders at work here.


----------



## Syaoransbear

SunshineWolf said:


> Why purchase a GSD? I have two and never intended to use them for working. Most people purchase a breed that for some reason fancy's them.


Because of the appeal of their personality of course.

Temperament: Loyalty, aloofness, biddability, protectiveness, confidence, courageousness, etc. 

Physical: Athleticism, stamina, can deal with most weather conditions. 

Their appearance is just a perk. I would never get a large, powerful animal just because of its appearance. Otherwise I'd have a bunch of malamutes that would run away all the time because I'm so used to the loyalty of a german shepherd .


----------



## Freestep

Syaoransbear said:


> I would never get a large, powerful animal just because of its appearance. Otherwise I'd have a bunch of malamutes that would run away all the time because I'm so used to the loyalty of a german shepherd .


Hehe... I'd own a bunch of leopards, tigers, and wolves!


----------



## Syaoransbear

Freestep said:


> Hehe... I'd own a bunch of leopards, tigers, and wolves!


oooo me too :wild:!


----------



## msvette2u

> Eye color at maturity should range in shades of light gray-green to *gold in coloration.*


OH I finally figured out what Ruger is!!!!
Now it all makes sense! :wild:










See my wolf-dog!??
I have papers to prove it


----------



## mosul210

msvette2u said:


> OH I finally figured out what Ruger is!!!!
> Now it all makes sense! :wild:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See my wolf-dog!??
> I have papers to prove it


Commedy relief...Awesome. Please don't stop posting you certainly amuse me. So glad I found this forum


----------



## GrammaD

> These are not backyard breeders at work here.


I disagree. There are many "red flags" on that site. The breeding for color being only one of them. Breeders who have what amounts to "clearance sales" for puppies? Really?

I find it particularly not amusing that the testimonial page has stores of fear aggression, submissive urination, destructiveness, and escape artist difficulties.


----------



## SunshineWolf

Syaoransbear said:


> Because of the appeal of their personality of course.
> 
> Temperament: Loyalty, aloofness, biddability, protectiveness, confidence, courageousness, etc.
> 
> Physical: Athleticism, stamina, can deal with most weather conditions.
> 
> Their appearance is just a perk. I would never get a large, powerful animal just because of its appearance. Otherwise I'd have a bunch of malamutes that would run away all the time because I'm so used to the loyalty of a german shepherd .


Everyone has their own reasons, I'm glad you found an animal that suited your requirements and makes you happy


----------



## SunshineWolf

GrammaD said:


> I disagree. There are many "red flags" on that site. The breeding for color being only one of them. Breeders who have what amounts to "clearance sales" for puppies? Really?


Yes she breeds to stay consistent with the blue family, which comes in many forms not just solid blue. 

Clearance sale? im lost, explain please.


----------



## GrammaD

SunshineWolf said:


> Yes she breeds to stay consistent with the blue family, which comes in many forms not just solid blue.
> 
> Clearance sale? im lost, explain please.


Last year she was selling off "reduced price pups" with blue and tan puppies being "discounted" to $800. Google the kennel name. Interesting stuff comes up.


----------



## SunshineWolf

GrammaD said:


> Last year she was selling off "reduced price pups" with blue and tan puppies being "discounted" to $800. Google the kennel name. Interesting stuff comes up.


Discounted from what? lol. She took $200 off her selling price and now its a clearance sale? good point. 
Also she is still developing the breed and creating more foundation stock for her line. Some of the animals she reduced the price on were intended to be kept for those purposes but probably did not have the desired traits to be used in her breeding program. She makes everyone aware that this line of animals although much easier for the novice canine owner than her Wolfdogs are still a work in progress and she is still a few years away from her goal.

Back to education, here is Tasha a resident at the Everglades Outpost pictured here with Megan one of the volunteers. She is a Arctic and British Columbian wolf cross. She was born solid black and phased to almost solid white as she has been maturing. This is what is considered phasing color.


----------



## wyominggrandma

Hey,you all come to Wyoming and Idaho and Montana and take all the wolves you want. Maybe you can make pets of them, since they are over running the states from the few pairs that they brought to Yellowstone.lots and lots of babies every spring....They did not stay in the park, they are even down in Jackson attacking dogs... 
Wolves are legal to shoot in Idaho now when season is open, Wyoming is fighting for a season to shoot them as well,they can shoot them in Montana also during season.
Watch the wild wolves take down healthy animals just for sport and something to do, then leave it dying to take down another. There is no longer a Moose hunt in Jackson since there are no moose left, Elk hunting is down to almost nothing.Go drive through Yellowstone in the spring.Years ago you had to stop your car for the herds elk and buffalo with babies to cross the road, now you are lucky to see these same animals, but you can see lots of wolves. Have even seen them trotting down the highway in broad daylight.
Sorry, can't understand for a second why anyone would want a wolf mix..........Watch the real wolves in the wild and then tell me why chance owning a hybrid.


----------



## SunshineWolf

wyominggrandma said:


> Hey,you all come to Wyoming and Idaho and Montana and take all the wolves you want. Maybe you can make pets of them, since they are over running the states from the few pairs that they brought to Yellowstone.lots and lots of babies every spring....They did not stay in the park, they are even down in Jackson attacking dogs...
> Wolves are legal to shoot in Idaho now when season is open, Wyoming is fighting for a season to shoot them as well,they can shoot them in Montana also during season.
> Watch the wild wolves take down healthy animals just for sport and something to do, then leave it dying to take down another. There is no longer a Moose hunt in Jackson since there are no moose left, Elk hunting is down to almost nothing.Go drive through Yellowstone in the spring.Years ago you had to stop your car for the herds elk and buffalo with babies to cross the road, now you are lucky to see these same animals, but you can see lots of wolves. Have even seen them trotting down the highway in broad daylight.
> Sorry, can't understand for a second why anyone would want a wolf mix..........Watch the real wolves in the wild and then tell me why chance owning a hybrid.



lol, and we do not hunt and kill for sport? 

We have wiped out how many animals since introduction of man?

this is getting good guys.


----------



## GrammaD

SunshineWolf said:


> Discounted from what? lol. She took $200 off her selling price and now its a clearance sale? good point.
> Also she is still developing the breed (......)
> 
> Back to education, here is Tasha a resident at the Everglades Outpost pictured here with Megan one of the volunteers. She is a Arctic and British Columbian wolf cross. She was born solid black and phased to almost solid white as she has been maturing. This is what is considered phasing color.


A. it's not a breed
B. why isn't the volunteer inside the enclosure?


----------



## Draugr

wyominggrandma said:


> There is no longer a Moose hunt in Jackson since there are no moose left, Elk hunting is down to almost nothing.Go drive through Yellowstone in the spring.Years ago you had to stop your car for the herds elk and buffalo with babies to cross the road, now you are lucky to see these same animals, but you can see lots of wolves.


Wolves pushed as "park stewards," neutered and transplanted nationwide

This was only a couple years ago, they were talking about introducing small, sterilized packs of wolves to curb ballooning herbivore populations because they were over-grazing and damaging ecosystems. I can't imagine things have done a complete 180 in just two years.

Maybe that is a more localized thing? I can't figure out whether these researchers are talking about a more general problem or if they mean it is (was?) this way everywhere.


----------



## SunshineWolf

GrammaD said:


> A. it's not a breed
> B. why isn't the volunteer inside the enclosure?


Only licensed individuals can enter the enclosure, FWC rules. She is just a volunteer there for education.

Also what is a Saarloos considered or CSV considered are they not breeds?


----------



## Seer

Originally Posted by Syaoransbear 
I would never get a large, powerful animal just because of its appearance. Otherwise I'd have a bunch of malamutes that would run away all the time because I'm so used to the loyalty of a german shepherd .

And yet it was part of your decision. 

Because of the appeal of their personality of course.

Temperament: Loyalty, aloofness, biddability, protectiveness, confidence, courageousness, etc. 

Physical: Athleticism, stamina, can deal with most weather conditions. 

You just described my Jack Russell perfectly... Did you get one of those as well?

I dont think anyone wants to Poo Poo the first documented case of breeding wolves and dogs in this forum right.


----------



## SunshineWolf

Its also interesting to point out that Russia is currently breeding and using Wolfdogs in its army for border protection. You can search up Perm Wolf dogs, there is also a page on Facebook that is dedicated to updated on the status of their animals.


----------



## Dainerra

arg, that website made me ill. It has BYB stamped all over it. Well-meaning? I'm sure, but not a breeder I would ever recommend to anyone.


----------



## Dainerra

Seer said:


> O
> 
> You just described my Jack Russell perfectly... Did you get one of those as well?


a Jack Russell personality is nothing like a GSD.


----------



## SunshineWolf

Dainerra said:


> arg, that website made me ill. It has BYB stamped all over it. Well-meaning? I'm sure, but not a breeder I would ever recommend to anyone.


It's unfortunate that most if not all the content on that site was compiled and produced by one of her friends, Vicki Spencer has been breeding for 30 years and is regarded as one of the best Wolfdog breeders both in the states and overseas. She is not computer savy and is way past the computer generation. She also bred GSD's for a while and stopped all together to breed overall healthier animals. Image isnt everything sometimes and proof is in the pudding.


----------



## GrammaD

They have breed standards accepted by registries.

Does she even have a written standard much less one accepted by any registry?

This is like the Shiloh Shepherd all over again, but with an element of stupidity and danger that makes my teeth hurt.

It is no more a "breed" than a "doodle" or a "puggle" is.


----------



## SunshineWolf

GrammaD said:


> They have breed standards accepted by registries.
> 
> Does she even have a written standard much less one accepted by any registry?
> 
> This is like the Shiloh Shepherd all over again, but with an element of stupidity and danger that makes my teeth hurt.
> 
> It is no more a "breed" than a "doodle" or a "puggle" is.



That is why its work in progress, she just produced her second generation of pups & is years away from her goal. This was also how the saarloos and CSV started with desired goals finely selecting and producing foundation stock. I don't see where it was explainded differently. Whats your point?


----------



## SunshineWolf

GrammaD said:


> They have breed standards accepted by registries.
> 
> Does she even have a written standard much less one accepted by any registry?
> 
> This is like the Shiloh Shepherd all over again, but with an element of stupidity and danger that makes my teeth hurt.
> 
> It is no more a "breed" than a "doodle" or a "puggle" is.


Shiloh shepherds cannot be traced back to the pure wolf in the line. Vicki's animals are both DNA verified and can be traced to the original pures that were introduced into the line. As for the Shepherds used they come from LOD kennels in France and I'm sure the information on their lines and pedigree's are available for anyone interested. All the animals were hand selected for temperament and specific desired traits, this wanst a case of lets just breed my two gorgeous animals because i think it would be cool.


----------



## Dainerra

but why start a breed with "out of standard" dogs of another breed? Admitted pet quality dogs at that.
The things on the site that made me ill have nothing to do with the site. The breeding program is what I don't agree with.

It doesn't matter the animal that you are breeding - GSD, horse, sheep, or wolf-dog - selecting for a recessive color is a health nightmare in the making. "Imported from a top breeder of rare blue shepherds"?? 
The bad breeding decisions go on and on from there.


----------



## Courtney

Honest question here: what's the appeal breeding wolves w/ *GSD*?
What's the goal, what traits does one want to take from the GSD & why?


----------



## jetscarbie

I'm Not for bashing anybody's idea of what type of dog/animal to invest in. I think research can be a very good thing. I also find this thread is very interesting...maybe bc I have seen and been around a wolf dog.

The only thing I wonder....there are thousands of breeds of dogs. Why in the world would you want to mix a wild animal with household dogs?

To me...it's like mixing a rat terrier and a lab together. Doesn't make sense...IMO.

I'm wondering.....somebody mentioned bc of health reasons....but what positives of a wild animal...such as a wolf....how would or how could that benefit a gsd?


Excuse any spelling mistakes I've made. I'm on a iPad and it likes to change my words.ugh


----------



## Freestep

SunshineWolf said:


> and is regarded as one of the best Wolfdog breeders both in the states and overseas.


That's kind of like saying someone is the best pimp or the best drug dealer. Not exactly a compliment outside certain circles, illegal in many places, and ethically suspect.

No matter what the breeding program is, no one is going to convince me that breeding wild animals for the pet trade is a good idea, no matter how you frame it. I cannot see a reason for it other than ego and profit. I'm not a fan of breeding wild cats with domestic ones, either. I'll stick with my GSDs and Ocicats.

The only working venues I have heard of which wolves *might* have something to contribute is working sled dogs (which are NOT pets). I have been told by old-time mushers that a 25% wolf hybrid has some of the good attributes of the wolf, without a lot of the negative behavioral ones. They said the F1 hybrids (cross between pure wolf and pure dog) are good for nothing but making 25% hybrids. 

I don't know how many mushers use wolf hybrids nowadays. It seems that Alaskan Huskies do just fine without any infusion of wolf blood.


----------



## Syaoransbear

Seer said:


> You just described my Jack Russell perfectly... Did you get one of those as well?


No, but I generally don't get every dog breed that may appeal to me or fit in my lifestyle. Plus the average jack russel terrier is not like an average german shepherd. They are terriers and hunters, not herders. I wouldn't want something that high energy, I wouldn't want a hunting dog that would kill my birds or be preoccupied with trying to get in the bird room to kill them(I can imagine with the tenacity of a jack russel terrier they would just go nuts in my house), and I've never seen a jack russel terrier able to be outside in our winters without needing a little jacket.

Maybe your jack russel terrier is similar to a german shepherd, but that isn't typical.


----------



## SunshineWolf

jetscarbie said:


> I'm Not for bashing anybody's idea of what type of dog/animal to invest in. I think research can be a very good thing. I also find this thread is very interesting...maybe bc I have seen and been around a wolf dog.
> 
> The only thing I wonder....there are thousands of breeds of dogs. Why in the world would you want to mix a wild animal with household dogs?
> 
> To me...it's like mixing a rat terrier and a lab together. Doesn't make sense...IMO.
> 
> I'm wondering.....somebody mentioned bc of health reasons....but what positives of a wild animal...such as a wolf....how would or how could that benefit a gsd?
> 
> 
> Excuse any spelling mistakes I've made. I'm on a iPad and it likes to change my words.ugh


Thats simple, no one is breeding wild animals to dogs. The wolfdogs we have today are a contribution of fur farms and never had intended standards for a breed.


----------



## Syaoransbear

Is there a specific temperament that wolfdog breeders are trying to achieve? What is the ultimate goal?


----------



## SunshineWolf

Freestep said:


> That's kind of like saying someone is the best pimp or the best drug dealer. Not exactly a compliment outside certain circles, illegal in many places, and ethically suspect.
> 
> No matter what the breeding program is, no one is going to convince me that breeding wild animals for the pet trade is a good idea, no matter how you frame it. I cannot see a reason for it other than ego and profit. I'm not a fan of breeding wild cats with domestic ones, either. I'll stick with my GSDs and Ocicats.
> 
> The only working venues I have heard of which wolves *might* have something to contribute is working sled dogs (which are NOT pets). I have been told by old-time mushers that a 25% wolf hybrid has some of the good attributes of the wolf, without a lot of the negative behavioral ones. They said the F1 hybrids (cross between pure wolf and pure dog) are good for nothing but making 25% hybrids.
> 
> I don't know how many mushers use wolf hybrids nowadays. It seems that Alaskan Huskies do just fine without any infusion of wolf blood.


How do you think your GSD was developed...what makes it right for one person and not another?


----------



## Seer

Dainerra said:


> arg, that website made me ill. It has BYB stamped all over it. Well-meaning? I'm sure, but not a breeder I would ever recommend to anyone.


I hope you have a better criteria for recommending a breeder and a animal type other then a cursory look at a website. 

How about I dont know enough about them, they are doing something totally different without a long track record and recorded history of success with the idea they are trying to put forward. So therefore I cant recommend them. 


I looked at their website for moment and cant recommend them for a 10-15 year relationship with an animal leaves me to not have much faith in your process. 

Although we both came to the same decision, boy is our process different.

And when did you met my Jack Russell?


----------



## SunshineWolf

Syaoransbear said:


> Is there a specific temperament that wolfdog breeders are trying to achieve? What is the ultimate goal?


That right there is the main problem, most are not around to achieve anything other than producing cool animals. Most do not put in any time or test the animals they breed for diseases. The wolfdog world is full of backwoods good ole boy type people. It makes it very difficult for the few that are out to produce great companion animals.


----------



## Dainerra

I went from her own words of what she was trying to achieve with this program as well as how she picked the GSD bloodline that was crossed in. 

All of her decisions that she has put out for the world to see scream "bad breeder"

also from her goals. She wants to produce a GSD/wolf-dog hybrid that acts and looks like neither a GSD nor a wolf. Using out of standard "rare" blue GSDs and other "pet quality" GSDs.


----------



## SunshineWolf

Dainerra said:


> I went from her own words of what she was trying to achieve with this program as well as how she picked the GSD bloodline that was crossed in.
> 
> All of her decisions that she has put out for the world to see scream "bad breeder"


Like I said earlier its sad that her site was compiled by someone other than herself and is not all straight from the horses mouth. She is past the computer generation and a few people tried to put that up for her so she had something on the web. I think they did great for what they could contribute but it needs some help.


----------



## GrammaD

SunshineWolf said:


> That is why its work in progress, she just produced her second generation of pups & is years away from her goal. This was also how the saarloos and CSV started with desired goals finely selecting and producing foundation stock. I don't see where it was explainded differently. Whats your point?


IT'S NOT A BREED

that is my point

thank you for recognizing the validity of my statement


----------



## Dainerra

SunshineWolf said:


> Like I said earlier its sad that her site was compiled by someone other than herself and is not all straight from the horses mouth. She is past the computer generation and a few people tried to put that up for her so she had something on the web. I think they did great for what they could contribute but it needs some help.


so you are saying that nothing on the website is true?
ETA: for example, the decision to use Blue GSDs. 
The desire to breed pet quality "laid back" GSDs


----------



## GrammaD

SunshineWolf said:


> Shiloh shepherds cannot be traced back to the pure wolf in the line. Vicki's animals are both DNA verified and can be traced to the original pures that were introduced into the line. As for the Shepherds used they come from LOD kennels in France and I'm sure the information on their lines and pedigree's are available for anyone interested. All the animals were hand selected for temperament and specific desired traits, this wanst a case of lets just breed my two gorgeous animals because i think it would be cool.


Thus the added element of stupidity with the BBS that the Shiloh did not have. Again, thank you for recognizing the validity of my point.

And, in fact, she did simply breed two gorgeous animals because she thought it would be cool. It is why she started with breeding stock (on the dog side) that was out of standard. They looked cool to her.


----------



## Shaina

Why is she taking a working breed washout and breeding it to a wolf in order to create a companion dog? Lets take the GSD that didnt fit its standard and create something with an unpredictable outcome.. hm.


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## JakodaCD OA

I wouldn't say 'bad breeder'. It rather looks experimental to me.

I looked at the site, and first I will say, stunning looking animals. I would like to see more information on the background of dogs, as in pedigrees. I would also like to see more information on health testing if any done. 

I also checked out the kennel, legend of darkness, did google it to english, and could be my lack of skills, but I only could really find info on the kennels 'white' dogs. No matter.

I will say what seer put very well, I dont know enough about the breeder or program to offer a recommendation

Again, I think the dogs are absolutely stunning, but it seems like there is alot of focus on color/looks with temperament thrown in there , which of course to each his own. 

It's interesting reading tho


----------



## JakodaCD OA

A question I would have that I didn't see the answer to, is what does she sell the puppies for and what type of warranty does she give? Just curious.


----------



## SunshineWolf

Dainerra said:


> so you are saying that nothing on the website is true?
> ETA: for example, the decision to use Blue GSDs.
> The desire to breed pet quality "laid back" GSDs


Are you looking hard for an argument? You like to exaggerate one comment to the far extreme. If nothing was true I'm sure it would have been pulled down. That site has been under development for over 3 months and is still undergoing changes as Vicki has a chance to correct things. Puppy season is just over and I'm sure things are going to change as updated come about. 

I'm done defending the blue bays as they were just one example of something new being done in the wolfdog world.


----------



## SunshineWolf

Shaina said:


> Why is she taking a working breed washout and breeding it to a wolf in order to create a companion dog? Lets take the GSD that didnt fit its standard and create something with an unpredictable outcome.. hm.


No one is breeding a wolf to a dog, what are you talking about?


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## Shaina

Sorry, "wolf dog".



SunshineWolf said:


> No one is breeding a wolf to a dog, what are you talking about?


----------



## SunshineWolf

JakodaCD OA said:


> A question I would have that I didn't see the answer to, is what does she sell the puppies for and what type of warranty does she give? Just curious.


Until the she has a stable line of animals, with a set standard the prices are subjective to the individual animals. She contracts all the animals she produces, wolfdogs and blue bays alike. If the animal has health problems she takes the animal back & care for itand will replace it with a healthy animals, if any owner suffers any medical issues, or family personal problems and can no longer care for the animal she also take them back.


----------



## SunshineWolf

GrammaD said:


> Thus the added element of stupidity with the BBS that the Shiloh did not have. Again, thank you for recognizing the validity of my point.
> 
> And, in fact, she did simply breed two gorgeous animals because she thought it would be cool. It is why she started with breeding stock (on the dog side) that was out of standard. They looked cool to her.



I think whats stupid is a roached back "show type" shepherd, that to most is considered "prized".


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## Shaina

Lol... opcorn:


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## GrammaD

SunshineWolf said:


> I think whats stupid is a roached back "show type" shepherd, that to most is considered "prized".


Personally I find breeding dogs with skittish and/or difficult temperaments that make them unsuitable for family living or performing tasks that a well bred dog should be able to perform is far more stupid.

And that includes recognized breeds of dogs not just the disaster of wolf-dogs.

But to each their own. 

There are breed standards for a reason. Standards that include physical characteristics deemed necessary for function as well as suitable temperament. It is simply too easy to develop kennel blindness _even with a standard in place_ to ever think that a person can attain excellence without one and without peer review. 

And peer review is more than "wow, cool looking dog."


----------



## Freestep

SunshineWolf said:


> How do you think your GSD was developed...what makes it right for one person and not another?


Yeah, yeah, yeah, the old "GSDs were created from wolves" argument. The fact is, there is scanty evidence that wolves ever played a part in the development of the breed. Some of the early GSDs had a wolfish appearance, and rumors abound that some were crossing wolves into their herding dogs in the early days, but that was NOT what the creator of the GSD was looking for or wanted. He was looking for a specific temperament, which would not include wolfish behaviors, and he specifically stated that wolves were NOT to be crossed into the breeding stock.

So, even if we assume for the sake of argument that some were surrepetitously breeding wolves with the herding dogs selected for creation of the GSD, it would have been so little and so far back as to be negligable at this point.

There are more recent wolf/GSD crossings which were intended to produce a "healthier" working dog, the Sarloos Wolfhound and Czech Wolfdog to name just two, both of which were failures as far as getting any kind of working ability out of the animals. They are too skittish, too weak-nerved, not biddable, and would sooner flee from a threat than guard against it.

You can argue that ALL dogs are wolves, and 40,000 years ago, you'd be correct. Ever since that time, man has selected against the behavior and temperament of the wild wolf, and has been pretty successful. Now, for some reasons of ego, fashion, and profit, people want to introduce wolfish characteristics back into what took 40,000 years to get rid of, so that people can have an exotic pet that makes them feel special and cool. Wherever there is a demand for the different and exotic, profiteers will find a way to fulfill it, and have no care or concern for the welfare of the animals or the unsuspecting buyers that purchase them. Then you read about people's toddlers being mauled to death, or people setting their wolfdogs free and allowing them to roam the countryside in packs and decimate peoples' livestock.

This should anger those who would like to defend and promote wolfdogs and pets. Where is the outrage?


----------



## JakodaCD OA

Can we STOP with the breeder bashing, it's getting real close to that, and I wouldn't want to have to shut this thread down. You (general you) don't like what they are doing, fine, we get it. 

I would LIKE this thread to stay "civil"..Sure you can have your (general your) opinions, but I FOR ONE, would like to see it continue with some ADULT conversation, views, and INFORMATION

Whether one agrees or disagrees with the whole wolf/dog issue, doesn't mean one is right and one is wrong. 

Sunshinewolf, thank you for answering my question, I like that she will take return of anything she produces. 

With that everyone PLAY NICE or this will be shut down.


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## SunshineWolf

Freestep said:


> Yeah, yeah, yeah, the old "GSDs were created from wolves" argument. The fact is, there is scanty evidence that wolves ever played a part in the development of the breed. Some of the early GSDs had a wolfish appearance, and rumors abound that some were crossing wolves into their herding dogs in the early days, but that was NOT what the creator of the GSD was looking for or wanted. He was looking for a specific temperament, which would not include wolfish behaviors, and he specifically stated that wolves were NOT to be crossed into the breeding stock.
> 
> So, even if we assume for the sake of argument that some were surrepetitously breeding wolves with the herding dogs selected for creation of the GSD, it would have been so little and so far back as to be negligable at this point.
> 
> There are more recent wolf/GSD crossings which were intended to produce a "healthier" working dog, the Sarloos Wolfhound and Czech Wolfdog to name just two, both of which were failures as far as getting any kind of working ability out of the animals. They are too skittish, too weak-nerved, not biddable, and would sooner flee from a threat than guard against it.
> 
> You can argue that ALL dogs are wolves, and 40,000 years ago, you'd be correct. Ever since that time, man has selected against the behavior and temperament of the wild wolf, and has been pretty successful. Now, for some reasons of ego, fashion, and profit, people want to introduce wolfish characteristics back into what took 40,000 years to get rid of, so that people can have an exotic pet that makes them feel special and cool. Wherever there is a demand for the different and exotic, profiteers will find a way to fulfill it, and have no care or concern for the welfare of the animals or the unsuspecting buyers that purchase them. Then you read about people's toddlers being mauled to death, or people setting their wolfdogs free and allowing them to roam the countryside in packs and decimate peoples' livestock.
> 
> This should anger those who would like to defend and promote wolfdogs and pets. Where is the outrage?


That is not what I meant, relax take a breathe and read. The GSD is a mix of animals to get what ones desired animal was. What made him special and why cant others take on this venture of creating something they vision and desire.


----------



## OriginalWacky

I've been reading along and not putting my opinions out there thus far, but I guess I'll hop on in here now. What the heck, right?

I tend to lean on the side that breeding wolves with dogs so that people can have a tough/awesome/bad/wild looking animals is probably a bad idea. Perhaps even a really bad idea. To me, the worst of it is that the average pet owner is in NO way capable of dealing with a tough dog, let alone something that is a wild animal/part wild animal. I hold the same opinion of people who want to own the big cats, other primates, large reptiles, etc. 

Don't get me wrong, I would totally own a wolf/tiger/cheetah/elephant/insert other animal here if I could. However, I am aware that I do not have the facilities, the know-how, and the money at this point, and may never have it. I've gotten to stroke a pet lion (holy cow they are really BIG up close), been able to get in the wolf pen at a sanctuary (with young pups, not adults), had the chance to mess with a buffalo in my life, and those have been wonderful experiences, but I've also learned that these animals are NOT pets.

If I see/hear of a reason that breeding dogs and wolves will somehow improve their lives that makes sense to me, then maybe I'll feel more like it's a good idea, but for now, I think it's something that shouldn't be done. I've met a wolfdog that was a pretty nice pet, and it worked out fairly well, but I still just can't bring myself to say I agree with it.

All that being said, those people who do have wolfdogs or other exotic 'pets' can feel free to share pictures and stories with me, and I won't be nasty about it. Just so they know I am not going to encourage them. We may have to agree to disagree on this topic. 

I hope I'm making sense, I'm a bit muddled right now and I'm not sure I'm expressing my thoughts clearly. Feel free to ask for clarification.


----------



## Shaina

But WHAT is the desire? A companion animal? There are already plenty of those. There is no need to mix in wild blood.. and if its the look, I think huskies and malamutes achieved that already.


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## jetscarbie

Sunshine...please don't take offense with anything posted. I've enjoyed hearing your point....and others

What positives things are you seeing with this wolf dog breed? I see your profile picture....is that wolf dogs? Pretty.


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## SunshineWolf

GrammaD said:


> Personally I find breeding dogs with skittish and/or difficult temperaments that make them unsuitable for family living or performing tasks that a well bred dog should be able to perform is far more stupid.
> 
> And that includes recognized breeds of dogs not just the disaster of wolf-dogs.
> 
> But to each their own.
> 
> There are breed standards for a reason. Standards that include physical characteristics deemed necessary for function as well as suitable temperament. It is simply too easy to develop kennel blindness _even with a standard in place_ to ever think that a person can attain excellence without one and without peer review.
> 
> And peer review is more than "wow, cool looking dog."


Thats why researching the line of wolfdogs is critical before buying, not all come from skittish and/or difficult temperaments. Some actually are well behaved, loyal, tractable animals bred to other "well behaved, loyal, tractable animals".


----------



## SunshineWolf

jetscarbie said:


> Sunshine...please don't take offense with anything posted. I've enjoyed hearing your point....and others
> 
> What positives things are you seeing with this wolf dog breed? I see your profile picture....is that wolf dogs? Pretty.


This is the common welcoming with most people in breed specific forums, its expected. I also welcome it because the fact of the matter is we can all agree the information on these animals is scattered and most is hear say and little hands on experience.

Those are the two that live with me, the positives of owning one, for me....I lived with Working K9's my whole life and wanted an animals I could leave a bit loose on training with an independent nature, an animal that wasn't always needy of my attention once it got to its full maturity. The feeling that I am accepted as a friend and not just the animals boss or master that they needed to seek for every task. They show you the true meaning of trust and how its earned and once that is established thats where the magic is. 

This can be said for other breeds and I'm not biased to owning wolfdogs as I like all kinds of animals, I work closely with a few rescues and always have 1 foster @ home with us in the group at all times, when ones out the door we bring another in immediately. It does great for socializing my guys to new animals all the time and different personalities and animals with social issues.


----------



## wyominggrandma

All you have to do is look in the Utah classifieds and here is a sampling of a few breeders selling wolf hybrids. 

Here is a breeder in Utah: www.wolfhuskypups.com

$150.00 
1/2 Siberian 1/2 Arctic Wolf (Hybrid
I have a 7 month old larger hybrid. His father is 3/4 arctic and mother is 1/2. They are on site. They are not for sale. Please do not ask.

He needs to be worked with slightly as he is still around his parents mostly. I was going to keep him to replace his father and have decided to move. Hence the reason I have a few ads out. 

I will take 150 for him today. He has received many tire kicking type calls. I am only showing him to genuinely interested people. 


$400.00 
Siberian Husky/Wolf Hybrid Puppies
Beautiful markings! Dad is pure Siberian Husky and mom is pure Siberian Husky Wolf Hybrid. Both have blue eyes. Puppies will be ready to leave the day after Easter. Price includes first set of shots. Require $100 down to hold puppy.

 
1/4 Canadian Timber Wolf Siberian Husky Puppies .
Four females, three males. Born on the Second of February (Groundhog Day). The dam and sire are both white with blue eyes. Beautiful coloring. Her par more... .




http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=23...iewSelect=list&viewNumResults=12&sort=1&pid=0


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## Freestep

SunshineWolf said:


> That is not what I meant, relax take a breathe and read. The GSD is a mix of animals to get what ones desired animal was. What made him special and why cant others take on this venture of creating something they vision and desire.


The GSD, and other recently developed breeds, had a working purpose in mind, and did not employ crossbreeding with wild animals to get the desired result--in fact, that would have been counterproductive to the desired result. 

What is the purpose of this "vision" and "desire" to mix wolves with dogs, beyond ego and profit? So far, all I can see is people having fantasies about owning a beautiful wild creature, but no real working purpose behind it. At least the guy in Russia who bred jackals with dogs had a true working goal in mind--the ultimate detector dog--and has had some degree of success, but I'm willing to bet that he'd have had just as much success (if not more) using domestic dogs. And that guy was not breeding for the pet market--in fact, I believe he retains ownership over all the animals he produces and does not sell to the public.


----------



## SunshineWolf

wyominggrandma said:


> All you have to do is look in the Utah classifieds and here is a sampling of a few breeders selling wolf hybrids.
> 
> Here is a breeder in Utah: www.wolfhuskypups.com
> 
> $150.00
> 1/2 Siberian 1/2 Arctic Wolf (Hybrid
> I have a 7 month old larger hybrid. His father is 3/4 arctic and mother is 1/2. They are on site. They are not for sale. Please do not ask.
> 
> He needs to be worked with slightly as he is still around his parents mostly. I was going to keep him to replace his father and have decided to move. Hence the reason I have a few ads out.
> 
> I will take 150 for him today. He has received many tire kicking type calls. I am only showing him to genuinely interested people.
> 
> 
> $400.00
> Siberian Husky/Wolf Hybrid Puppies
> Beautiful markings! Dad is pure Siberian Husky and mom is pure Siberian Husky Wolf Hybrid. Both have blue eyes. Puppies will be ready to leave the day after Easter. Price includes first set of shots. Require $100 down to hold puppy.
> 
> 
> 1/4 Canadian Timber Wolf Siberian Husky Puppies .
> Four females, three males. Born on the Second of February (Groundhog Day). The dam and sire are both white with blue eyes. Beautiful coloring. Her par more... .


Wolfhusky pups, well if you want a dog great choice, they have been labeled scammers for years and anyone that has done any kind of research as they should when wanting a wolfdog would realize and steer clear of them just by looking at their animals. Rule of thumb most reputable breeders with verified lines start @ around $1200+ per pup and High contents around $3000. They have a few years worth of a waiting list and have iron clad contracts and breeding agreements. 

Winddancer Wolves
WolvesUSA.com
wolfheartwolfdogs.com
seacrestwolfpreserve.com
thewolfcrossing.org

are just a few of that would be considered reputable in the wolfdog world, compare the animals at that husky breeder and you will see what a real wolf cross looks like. Most people have no Idea that they got shammed till they get dooped the first time, then once they research and learn they usually are glad they didnt get the real thing or patiently find exactly what they originally wanted.


----------



## SunshineWolf

Freestep said:


> The GSD, and other recently developed breeds, had a working purpose in mind, and did not employ crossbreeding with wild animals to get the desired result--in fact, that would have been counterproductive to the desired result.
> 
> What is the purpose of this "vision" and "desire" to mix wolves with dogs, beyond ego and profit? So far, all I can see is people having fantasies about owning a beautiful wild creature, but no real working purpose behind it. At least the guy in Russia who bred jackals with dogs had a true working goal in mind--the ultimate detector dog--and has had some degree of success, but I'm willing to bet that he'd have had just as much success (if not more) using domestic dogs. And that guy was not breeding for the pet market--in fact, I believe he retains ownership over all the animals he produces and does not sell to the public.


No one is taking in wolves and breeding them with dogs, thats illegal in the US. The problem was already there with wolfdogs because of fur farmers. Since then we have today the offspring of those animals.

I never had a desire/fantasy for a pretty animal, I simply continued to work with animals that I had already been exposed to and took a appreciation for. I also realized that the image many have of them including myself was quite the opposite of what they actually were and enjoy educating the locals here and entertaining them with my well behaved mutts.


Perm wolfdogs in Russia have a goal also and they are getting great results.


----------



## GrammaD

SunshineWolf said:


> Thats why researching the line of wolfdogs is critical before buying, not all come from skittish and/or difficult temperaments. Some actually are well behaved, loyal, tractable animals bred to other "well behaved, loyal, tractable animals".


Which still misses the point. What is the standard being aimed for? Is there one? What are these breeders (point taken on the individual breeders bashing, I'll be broader in my brush from here on out) attempting to achieve? What is the goal? What do they wish the result to do? IOW, what form following what function?

What is achieved by deliberately introducing genetic fearfulness? Is there something a wolf brings to the party that well bred domesticated dogs cannot?

I have yet to see a breeding program based upon anything other than producing a "cool looking dog" that appeals to people who want to live a "Call of the Wild" fantasy. 

Okay, one program doesn't fit that bill, but those animals are *not* bred for a pet market and the majority are culled (the old fashioned meaning) as puppies and a very small number of resulting offspring are actually useful for their intended purpose. 

And it isn't in the USA. Which does make a difference because, although I am a patriot, the fact of the matter is we have a sizable population of people who shouldn't own a chia pet much less a real dog who get these hybrids for the "wow" factor and we have all seen the horrific results.

IMO, it is highly unethical to create these neither/nors. Too much carnage.


----------



## Syaoransbear

Are any breeders attempting to make a long term wolfdog breed? It seems like most people want first gens rather than a pup out of a more stable and established line of wolfdogs.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

gramma thank you that was very adult of you I appreciate it))


----------



## SunshineWolf

GrammaD said:


> What is achieved by deliberately introducing genetic fearfulness? Is there something a wolf brings to the party that well bred domesticated dogs cannot?


Introducing the dog for the benefit of removing the genetic fearfulness might be a good reason, on the flip side of the coin introducing the wolf for the benefit of removing genetic diseases and mutations.


----------



## SunshineWolf

Syaoransbear said:


> Are any breeders attempting to make a long term wolfdog breed? It seems like most people want first gens rather than a pup out of a more stable and established line of wolfdogs.


That is actually the opposite, most people look for stable animals with higher F gens, this gives more confidence that the breeder did their job in breeding out or in the right traits. Low F-gens are a crap shoot, you can have so many variations in temperament and looks without any idea of whats going to come out.

My F6 male is a product of many wolfdog to wolfdog breedings and his line has been continued to be line bred for consistency. My female is an F2 and the pure can be traced back to her Grand father, her father being a true 50/50 F1 cross, behavior wise she is a tad bit more intense than my male F6


----------



## Syaoransbear

Another question, what would the ideal wolfdog act like?


----------



## SunshineWolf

Syaoransbear said:


> Another question, what would the ideal wolfdog act like?


That is a matter of opinion.

To me, i look at mine like a GSD, I dont see much difference other than seasonal aggression and annual reproductive cycles rather than being fertile year round. 

They should be some what tractable but will require a little bit of patience to train. Energy level similar to a GSD with a need for a lot of daily enrichment to live a stable happy life. They like to test for boundaries and can be quite a pest from time to time but in a fun way and they love to solve problems, like how is this shoe put together, lets take it apart!


----------



## SunshineWolf

Here is my adult male Pyro, he is what I consider a good example of a mid content wolfdog.

His line comes from a mix of Eastern Timber wolf, British Columbian Wolf, Working line Shepherd, & Alaskan Malamute. He is a cross of two popular lines Southern Breezes Blue line & Gordon K. Smith lines.

* *** Images Removed by MOD - Max size allowed 800X600 *** *


----------



## GrammaD

SunshineWolf said:


> Introducing the dog for the benefit of removing the genetic fearfulness might be a good reason, on the flip side of the coin introducing the wolf for the benefit of removing genetic diseases and mutations.


Why would anyone want to remove genetic fearfulness from the wolf? It is essential for their survival. Plus, let's not try to kid anyone, these animals are not being created with some lofty goal of improving the lives of wolves.


And what genetic mutations exist in domestic dogs that cannot be eradicated with careful breeding practices that do not involve the deliberate introduction of socially disabling genetic traits? (survival traits in the wild, recipe for euthanasia in human companion roles)


----------



## SunshineWolf

GrammaD said:


> Why would anyone want to remove genetic fearfulness from the wolf?


In a domestic situation whats the need for being in survival mode? Fur farmers needed stable animals that would survive in captivity and in terrible conditions.


----------



## Freestep

SunshineWolf said:


> Introducing the dog for the benefit of removing the genetic fearfulness might be a good reason.


So the idea is to add dogs to create a more fearless wolf? What is the point of that? Wolves are much safer with a healthy fear and avoidance of humans--in the wild, where they belong. 

I shudder at the thought of people dumping fearless "pet" wolves into rural and remote areas.


----------



## Seer

Freestep said:


> .
> 
> What is the purpose of this "vision" and "desire" to mix wolves with dogs, beyond ego and profit? So far, all I can see is people having fantasies about owning a beautiful wild creature, but no real working purpose behind it. At least the guy in Russia who bred jackals with dogs had a true working goal in mind--the ultimate detector dog--and has had some degree of success, but I'm willing to bet that he'd have had just as much success (if not more) using domestic dogs. And that guy was not breeding for the pet market--in fact, I believe he retains ownership over all the animals he produces and does not sell to the public.


Im not sure you can crossbreed with wild animals. i think a wild wolf eats domestic female in short order.. YUM  

Beyond ego and profit is what we are trying to get to... Yes Both you and gramma have said they could have easily gotten his detection dogs from simple using other gsd's. What a moron this jackal character has turned out to be. If its so easy to get what he has, I suggest the two you get together and challenge his product.

I dont care if you breed for any market, pet market, food market, science market, theatre market..... Super market. A bad breeder is someone who does not care about that which he breed. Quite Simple. If you breed and take great care in that which you create and attempt to ensure, as best as anyone can being human, a happy healthy life, where do you get the right to decide that that person is.... Bad Person. Bad breeder... 

Is it not more accurate to state that a bad breeder is bad not because he/she is doing something you and another group of people deem not fitting (mob Rule), but because that which they create is not cared for properly or suffers to greatly.


----------



## SunshineWolf

Freestep said:


> So the idea is to add dogs to create a more fearless wolf? What is the point of that? Wolves are much safer with a healthy fear and avoidance of humans--in the wild, where they belong.
> 
> I shudder at the thought of people dumping fearless "pet" wolves into rural and remote areas.


I understand where your coming from, the fact is these arent fearless wolves, nor are they confident dogs, they fall somewhere in the middle and some sway to one direction and vise versa. 

Most if not all of these captively bred wolves are nothing like their wild counter parts. Then you take them and add dog to them and you further pushed them away from anything remotely like a pure wild wolf.

I would be more worried about the thousands of dogs that are easily obtained by just about anyone improperly raised and on the streets, they out number the wolfdogs greatly.


----------



## Verivus

SunshineWolf said:


> That is a matter of opinion.
> 
> To me, i look at mine like a GSD, I dont see much difference other than seasonal aggression and annual reproductive cycles rather than being fertile year round.
> 
> They should be some what tractable but will require a little bit of patience to train. Energy level similar to a GSD with a need for a lot of daily enrichment to live a stable happy life. They like to test for boundaries and can be quite a pest from time to time but in a fun way and they love to solve problems, like how is this shoe put together, lets take it apart!


So essentially you want a wolf-looking, but dog-acting pet with no real purpose other then... to be an active companion. Sounds like a Saarloos or Czechoslovakian wolfdog would work just fine. No need to recreate the wheel.


----------



## SunshineWolf

Verivus said:


> So essentially you want a wolf-looking, but dog-acting pet with no real purpose other then... to be an active companion. Sounds like a Saarloos or Czechoslovakian wolfdog would work just fine. No need to recreate the wheel.


Which both of those lines today sadly have poor breeders bringing in American wolfdogs into their lines with no traceable backgrounds. I dont see anything wrong with finding the right breeder that fits your needs and buying one of their mixes at that point. Also the cost of shipping them into the states and the stress it puts on the animals.


----------



## codmaster

SunshineWolf said:


> This is the common welcoming with most people in breed specific forums, its expected. I also welcome it because the fact of the matter is we can all agree the information on these animals is scattered and most is hear say and little hands on experience.
> 
> Those are the two that live with me, the positives of owning one, for me....I lived with Working K9's my whole life and *wanted an animals I could leave a bit loose on training with an independent nature, an animal that wasn't always needy of my attention once it got to its full maturity*. The feeling that I am accepted as a friend and not just the animals boss or master that they needed to seek for every task. They show you the true meaning of trust and how its earned and once that is established thats where the magic is.
> 
> This can be said for other breeds and I'm not biased to owning wolfdogs as I like all kinds of animals, I work closely with a few rescues and always have 1 foster @ home with us in the group at all times, when ones out the door we bring another in immediately. It does great for socializing my guys to new animals all the time and different personalities and animals with social issues.


 
*A Beagle, maybe??????*


----------



## SunshineWolf

These guys are crazy I tell you crazy, just look at this one roughing up the older lady! lol, sorry I needed a quick break from all the seriousness.


----------



## Verivus

codmaster said:


> *A Beagle, maybe??????*


:rofl:

Sorry, but if you're (general you're) serious about wanting a Saarloos or Czech wolfdog you don't look for them here in the USA. And where exactly do you get your information about mixing American wolf hybrids with these dogs? I know a woman who imported one and let me tell you, there ain't no american wolf hybrid genetics in hers.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

sunshine, he is gorgeous and yes looks quite ferocious


----------



## SunshineWolf

Verivus said:


> :rofl:
> 
> Sorry, but if you're (general you're) serious about wanting a Saarloos or Czech wolfdog you don't look for them here in the USA. And where exactly do you get your information about mixing American wolf hybrids with these dogs? I know a woman who imported one and let me tell you, there ain't no american wolf hybrid genetics in hers.


There are quite a few threads about it on the european wolfdogs forum World of the Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs


----------



## Courtney

He's a gorgeous dog for sure! I appreciate you hanging in there with this thread, this has not been a easy one, alot of good questions on both sides


----------



## Loneforce

Courtney said:


> He's a gorgeous dog for sure! I appreciate you hanging in there with this thread, this has not been a easy one, alot of good questions on both sides


 That is one beautiful dog!!!


----------



## Freestep

Seer said:


> Is it not more accurate to state that a bad breeder is bad not because he/she is doing something you and another group of people deem not fitting (mob Rule), but because that which they create is not cared for properly or suffers to greatly.


Maybe my reading comprehension is off, but I'm not sure what you are asking.

I have stated many times in this thread that I abhor the practice of bad breeding because it is the ANIMALS that suffer... as well as the naive, unsuspecting puppy buyers who end up with an animal they cannot handle, or that hurts someone. The animals suffer, the owner suffers, society suffers, the only one who doesn't suffer is the breeder stuffing your cash in his pocket. 

None of my feelings on this issue have anything to do with "mob rule", or any such nonsense. My feelings come from experience of buying and raising a wolfdog and the mistakes that were made. Believe me, to this very day I feel guilt and heartbreak over it, and this was nearly 25 years ago.


----------



## Seer

SunshineWolf said:


> Here is my adult male Pyro, he is what I consider a good example of a mid content wolfdog.
> 
> His line comes from a mix of Eastern Timber wolf, British Columbian Wolf, Working line Shepherd, & Alaskan Malamute. He is a cross of two popular lines Southern Breezes Blue line & Gordon K. Smith lines.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Holy mother of pearl batman... That is one smokin hot B a Utiful animal. The white as well with the old lady, she appears terrified.
> 
> I cant find anyone who has used the cross's with success for any working applications has anyone else? Been scouring all day.


----------



## Verivus

SunshineWolf said:


> There are quite a few threads about it on the european wolfdogs forum World of the Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs


What I gleaned, from the few minutes I spent browsing, was that the general Saarloos/CsW folks do not approve of the cross. So I'm assuming the breeders worth their salt aren't the ones doing these crosses. Which to me means this cross is something born out of BYB type breeders.


----------



## SunshineWolf

Freestep said:


> Maybe my reading comprehension is off, but I'm not sure what you are asking.
> 
> I have stated many times in this thread that I abhor the practice of bad breeding because it is the ANIMALS that suffer... as well as the naive, unsuspecting puppy buyers who end up with an animal they cannot handle, or that hurts someone. The animals suffer, the owner suffers, society suffers, the only one who doesn't suffer is the breeder stuffing your cash in his pocket.
> 
> None of my feelings on this issue have anything to do with "mob rule", or any such nonsense. My feelings come from experience of buying and raising a wolfdog and the mistakes that were made. Believe me, to this very day I feel guilt and heartbreak over it, and this was nearly 25 years ago.


Maybe the lack of experience and Bad breeder that sold you the animal can be to blame, maybe the animal came from poorly bred lines. It sucks you had a bad experience raising one, I've had my share of bad experiences with different breeds and different pets/exotics in the past but still continue to this day to learn from my mistakes and apply my experiences to the next animal venture.


----------



## Dragonwyke

SunshineWolf said:


> Back to education, here is Tasha a resident at the Everglades Outpost pictured here with Megan one of the volunteers. She is a Arctic and British Columbian wolf cross. She was born solid black and phased to almost solid white as she has been maturing. This is what is considered phasing color.


Sunshine, how old is Tasha? do you know how long many years of phasing out it took for her to go from black to white, and about when she started? my girl is about 4yrs is beginning to phase out her black. she looks so faded out from when i got her 2yrs ago. almost like a totally different dog, her face has even chiseled, or boned up over the last two years. i was just wondering how that's gonna go as i look at it first hand. 

the first pic is 10/2010 the second pic this month. 

dw


----------



## Freestep

SunshineWolf said:


> I've had my share of bad experiences with different breeds and different pets/exotics in the past but still continue to this day to learn from my mistakes and apply my experiences to the next animal venture.


I apply my experiences by not repeating the same mistakes.


----------



## SunshineWolf

Dragonwyke said:


> Sunshine, how old is Tasha? do you know how long many years of phasing out it took for her to go from black to white, and about when she started? my girl is about 4yrs is beginning to phase out her black. she looks so faded out from when i got her 2yrs ago. almost like a totally different dog, her face has even chiseled, or boned up over the last two years. i was just wondering how that's gonna go as i look at it first hand.
> 
> the first pic is 10/2010 the second pic this month.
> 
> dw


I'm not sure at what age she started to phase, I know a few animals from her downline that started as early as 6 months others didnt start phasing till they were 2.5-3yrs.


----------



## Whiteshepherds

I'm okay with experimental breeding as long as it's done responsibly. Interesting topic for sure, glad it's still up and running.


----------



## SunshineWolf

Freestep said:


> I apply my experiences by not repeating the same mistakes.


:thumbup:


----------



## SunshineWolf

Here is a video of our two boys Kiba (GSD) and Pyro (WD) and their feeding routine.



We apply the same training into both of the animals and the results are almost identical, Kiba is a rescue animal that was a stray living on the streets for a while, he had 0 training and was very unpredictable. Today he's very much stable and a great animal that is well loved.


----------



## Seer

Freestep said:


> Maybe my reading comprehension is off, but I'm not sure what you are asking.
> 
> I have stated many times in this thread that I abhor the practice of bad breeding because it is the ANIMALS that suffer... as well as the naive, unsuspecting puppy buyers who end up with an animal they cannot handle, or that hurts someone. The animals suffer, the owner suffers, society suffers, the only one who doesn't suffer is the breeder stuffing your cash in his pocket.
> 
> None of my feelings on this issue have anything to do with "mob rule", or any such nonsense. My feelings come from experience of buying and raising a wolfdog and the mistakes that were made. Believe me, to this very day I feel guilt and heartbreak over it, and this was nearly 25 years ago.



Everything listed above, belongs to the bad breeder. Thats where the blame lies. That was my point. All of the why would you breed should be questions and not a accusation. Which is what Im reading alot of.

The mob rule was in reference of the tendency of labeling anyone wanting anything not fitting in a AKC standard as bad people or bad breeders. I hear that experience for you was bad, but had that been pleasant... Who knows.

Im quite sure your story has been repeated similarly a million times with frankenstien American German Shepherd and the hap hazard breeding habits of many.

Im still not sure besides for looks what these guys might offer me. You have to admit pretty hot lookin.


----------



## SunshineWolf

This is our newest girl "Siren"

this is her @ 10 weeks:









These are from different stages as early as 6 weeks to about 8 weeks.


----------



## Chicagocanine

I had a friend in high school who claimed her dog was a wolfdog. She claimed they did DNA testing that proved it (this was before that type of thing was really available). Then again she also claimed her "wolfdog" was a police dog and that the police would come and pick her up to work and then return her. This was a dog who barely knew sit/down. :crazy: 
She was a big sweet dog though. My best guess was part Collie, maybe Malamute and something else. I highly doubt she had any wolf in her. I thought her claiming it was probably also not smart since they are illegal in many places...

I also thought when I was a kid that I would like to own a wolf hybrid in the future... As I got older though I changed my mind and decided wolves belong in the wild, and that breeding hybrids was not really a good thing for these animals and I don't really understand the purpose of crossing the species. I still liked the idea of owning a dog that looked wolfy at that point, but not any actual hybrid.

I have also noticed that a lot of people who claim or think they have a wolf hybrid, the dog does lot look or act at all "wolfy" and most likely it's just a mixed breed who happens to have some slightly wild-looking features.


----------



## mosul210

Chicagocanine said:


> I also thought when I was a kid that I would like to own a wolf hybrid in the future... As I got older though I changed my mind and decided wolves belong in the wild, and that breeding hybrids was not really a good thing for these animals and I don't really understand the purpose of crossing the species. I still liked the idea of owning a dog that looked wolfy at that point, but not any actual hybrid.
> 
> I have also noticed that a lot of people who claim or think they have a wolf hybrid, the dog does lot look or act at all "wolfy" and most likely it's just a mixed breed who happens to have some slightly wild-looking features.


I respect your beliefs and fortunately they do have some wolfy looking breeds to satisify owners looking for a wolfy looking animal such as the Northen Inuit breed - these are the dogs used in the popular series Game of Thrones.

Also good point in mentioning misrepresentation; Too many times I see an animal's wolf content misrepresented although I understand this is not limited to wolfdogs.


----------



## Chicagocanine

I think a lot of people just want a wolfdog because they think it's "cool" or something, without really knowing the realities of owning one... I guess for those people a dog that looks "wolfy" but has no wolf blood is probably a good thing if it keeps them from getting over their heads with a real hybrid... So I guess it's better to let them say they have a "wolfdog" when their dog is actually not one, rather than having them get one and not care for it properly.

P.S. Here's a photo of my friend's so-called "wolfdog" which I believe she also claimed was DNA tested to be part GSD (again this was ~15 years ago or so, before the mixed breed DNA testing they have now.) She looks small in the photo but she was about 100 lbs (but overweight) and maybe 26-27" tall-- I measured her height once, I know she was several inches taller than my Golden who was 24" at the shoulder but I don't remember exactly.


----------



## robinhuerta

Chicago.....I looked at the picture......perhaps she meant "woof-dog"....instead of "wolf-dog"?...LOL
_I'm just joking....I've been dying to use that comment all through this thread...._

I think the pups/dogs posted, actually *do* have wolf mix appearances.....they certainly are very beautiful animals.


----------



## FlyByNight

Hmmm... just finished reading this. I suspect, that _most_ of those looking for wolf hybrids are looking for the "cool" aspect. And most who claim to have one, probably don't.

And that those who are more responsible, who are genuinely dedicated, are looking for a different kind of experience altogether. They are less looking for a dog or a pet, and are more looking for something... different. 

After reading a very good article in Esquire about the Ohio exotic animal incident/shooting, I think there is a very deep attraction for people in having something more "wild," something they feel they have a special connection to that most people don't. But I also think it's very easy to push that limit. 

Not commenting on the selectively-bred "wolf dogs" (at what point do they get more domestic, and less "hybrid"?), there are many many people who were very good with wild or semi-wild animals who even then, go too far and get hurt. 

I am extremely hesitant to endorse the general out-crossing of domesticated and tame or wild wolves. It is a tricky business, and typically ends poorly. It sounds as though the Blue Bay endeavor is more along the lines of creating something newly domestic, than producing a real hybrid. I could be wrong, I have not had the chance to check out the site yet. 

But this is completely different from a wolf hybrid, which by definition has little to no selection applied. Domestication is applying specific criteria to strive for particular traits - docility, health, etc. Sounds to me like that's what Blue Bay is about, not really a wolf dog, but the beginnings of a young breed (much like Saarloos, etc., in early stages).


----------



## webdome

Verivus said:


> If you want the evidence go look for yourself; google's there for a reason and I can't be bothered to look it up for you. I'm not the one who wants that information. How do you know your supposed hybrid was even truly hybrid? Anything mixed with husky has the possibility to look wolf-like and most people who claim they had wolf hybrids never did.





Verivus said:


> Wolf mixes are not dogs. They are hybrids. Mix a tiger and a lion and you get a hybrid animal. Horse and a zebra, hybrid animal. Wolf and a dog, hybrid animal. Since you apparently know more about wolf hybrids then any of us here, please enlighten me as to why anyone would want such a hybrid? I would think anyone who did the proper research would NOT want such a thing. At least, that's how I felt when I did my research, so it boggles my mind when people get one.
> 
> **removed**


----------



## Syaoransbear

Who said anything about hybrids? The title of the thread says Hy*birds* 

Ya know, hybirds!


----------



## GrammaD

**removed personal attack/insults**

your personal attack aside, you are factually in error. 

female liger and zorses have reproduced- you need to goggle Haldane's rule


----------



## dazedtrucker

Syaoransbear said:


> Who said anything about hybrids? The title of the thread says Hy*birds*
> 
> Ya know, hybirds!


:spittingcoffee: This thread has been so entertaining!


----------



## dazedtrucker

Courtney said:


> He's a gorgeous dog for sure! I appreciate you hanging in there with this thread, this has not been a easy one, alot of good questions on both sides
> 
> * *** Image Removed by MOD - Max size allowed 800X600 *** *
> WOW. I totally get what is attractive about wolfdogs. I could stare at this picture for days. Stunningly gorgeous is an understatement. WOW. Awesome :shocked::wub:


----------



## Chicagocanine

That's a good point. Dogs are actually now categorized as a sub-species of wolf, and they are incredibly close genetically to one another. So "wolf/dog mix" might be more appropriate than "hybrid", however a cross between two subspecies could still be considered a type of hybrid. 

Also wanted to add, I just wanted to be clear that I did not mean to imply that anyone on this forum got a wolfdog because it was "cool" or was a bad owner. I was referring to the "general public" or the average person out there rather than a knowledgeable animal owner. Also when I was talking about people who think they have a wolf hybrid but the dog looks nothing like a wolf, I was thinking mostly of another (non-breed-specific) forum I visit where people have said they had a wolfdog and then when they posted photos it was obviously either very low wolf content or none.




FlyByNight said:


> Not commenting on the selectively-bred "wolf dogs" (at what point do they get more domestic, and less "hybrid"?), there are many many people who were very good with wild or semi-wild animals who even then, go too far and get hurt.


Actually that's an interesting question, if a line of wolfdogs are bred with dogs for generations, or a "new breed" is created with some wolf in the ancestry, at what point do they become behaviorally pretty much indistinguishable from a regular dog or at one point are they no longer considered a hybrid? I know there has been some claims that GSDs were crossed with wolves at some point although I am not sure if that was proven or disproven. I know it's been done in some breeds.
There are also several cat breeds where a wild species was used in the breed creation but after a few generations with no outcrossing they pretty much act like a regular housecat. In some of the breeds outcrossing in still done but you can also get cats that were bred for generations without any.


----------



## Shaina

GrammaD said:


> your personal attack aside, you are factually in error.
> 
> female liger and zorses have reproduced- you need to goggle Haldane's rule



Definitely true! 



> Zorses, wholphins, tigons, and beefaloes. Lepjags, zonkeys, camas, and bonanzees. These are some of the captive-bred mammalian hybrids that exist, and they're joined by a host of hybrid birds, fish, insects, and plants. Thanks to new techniques that allow scientists to isolate and compare DNA, more hybrids are turning up every year, and we're learning that some of them—such as the pizzly, a cross between a polar bear and a grizzly—can occur naturally in the wild.


Ligers, Zonkies, Zorse, Rare Species Fund


----------



## webdome

GrammaD said:


> your personal attack aside, you are factually in error.
> 
> female liger and zorses have reproduced- you need to goggle Haldane's rule


No, I am not in error. Never been reported liger X liger, nor zorses X zorses, means they can be intrabreed with different species with questionable results, but they can't be interbreed.
More important that all given examples by *Verivus* are crosses between different species. Dogs are subspecies of Grey Wolf, and German Shepherd history:


> In 1899, Max von Stephanitz, an ex-cavalry captain and former student of the Berlin Veterinary College, was attending a dog show when he was shown a dog named _Hektor Linksrhein_ who was allegedly 1/4 wolf. Renamed Horand von Grafrath he and his progeny were used to create the Alsatian Wolf Dog, currently known as the German Shepherd Dog. Horand became the centre-point of the breeding programs and was bred with dogs belonging to other society members that displayed desirable traits. Although fathering many pups, Horand's most successful was _Hektor von Schwaben_.[7] Hektor was line bred with another of Horand's offspring and produced _Beowulf_, who later fathered a total of eighty-four pups, mostly through being line bred with Hektor's other offspring. In the original German Shepherd studbook, Zuchtbuch fur Deutsche Schaferhunde (SZ), within the 2 pages of entries from SZ #41 to SZ #76, there are 4 Wolf Crosses.[8] This is the first documented use of pure wolf genes to create a domestic dog breed, the German Shepherd Dog, which is historically the first intentionally bred wolfdog.


----------



## msvette2u

Well there you have it! If WIKI says it's true, it's true, dagnabit!

Oh yeah except for this little thing--



> a dog named Hektor Linksrhein who was _allegedly_ 1/4 wolf.


----------



## webdome

Moreover, just to answer the question why breeders look for wild gene pool.
Genetical variations produce more fit (biological meaning) animal. As an example Russian Super Dog


----------



## Jessiewessie99

Sunshinewolf: Pryo and Siren are BEAUTIFUL wolf dogs and great examples and ambassadors!

Thank you for sharing your information! Please keep sharing!


----------



## webdome

webdome said:


> No, I am not in error. Never been reported liger X liger, nor zorses X zorses, means they can be intrabreed with different species with questionable results, but they can't be interbreed.


My mistake: should be "they can interbreed, they can't intrabreed"


----------



## Draugr

To my knowledge the myth behind von Stephanitz using a wolf in the GSD breed was almost if not entirely perpetuated by Tina Barber, founder of the Shiloh Shepherd. When I do a search on this any major sources of information almost exclusively wind up linking back to a rather bizarre article she wrote.

I don't know what her agenda is but there is zero credible evidence to suggest that he did, and plenty to suggest that he did not. The wolf has little to nothing to offer the domestic pet or working dog. I honestly cannot see von Stephanitz using wolf in his dogs at all.

Talk:German Shepherd/Archive 1 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:German_Shepherd_Dog#Somebody_messing_with_the_article.3F

There seems to be a consistent edit war by an unsigned user to interject this information. I've seen it pop on and off the German Shepherd Dog article a dozen times at least, since the first time I ever read it. One week GSDs are descended from wolves (recently speaking, that is), the next week, they are not. Toss a coin.

Wikipedia is generally reliable, but if something seems suspect (such as von Stephanitz using wolves to create the GSD), look into the talk page history.

An interesting look at the "GSDs are wolfdogs" myth, that I found after some quick searching:

http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/2011/02/the-wolf-like-dog.html


----------



## GrammaD

**removed personal attack/insults by webdome**



GrammaD said:


> your personal attack aside, you are factually in error.
> 
> female liger and zorses have reproduced- you need to goggle Haldane's rule


ACK! Removing what I quoted from another post this way makes it look like _*I*_ engaged in a personal attack/insults! Is there a better way? Maybe it's small potatoes, but I really don't like to come across as a person who would do that!


----------



## GrammaD

webdome said:


> My mistake: should be "they can interbreed, they can't intrabreed"


Either way they are _*not sterile*_, which is what you originally claimed


----------



## JakodaCD OA

better?


----------



## SunshineWolf

Here is a picture of Pyro and his mate Magic



















Here is one of the male pups "Valor" @ 9 weeks from this past litter:


----------



## GrammaD

JakodaCD OA said:


> better?



Much, yes, and THANK YOU!


----------



## mosul210

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Sunshinewolf: Pryo and Siren are BEAUTIFUL wolf dogs and great examples and ambassadors!
> 
> Thank you for sharing your information! Please keep sharing!


I agree, beautiful animals. For the most part it looks like people are interested and willing to learn, I've already received over half a dozen PMs asking for more information. Understanding is the first step to acceptance


----------



## Dragonwyke

mosul210 said:


> Understanding is the first step to acceptance


less fear would even be more acceptable than the current thinking on wolfdogs. i'm stunned at some of the ideas there are on these guys, not gonna argue on it tho. can't legislate or fight ingrained fear w/out being face to face with it. that's why bsl is such a dangerous thing. 

dw


----------



## Chance&Reno

Like I've said, Beautiful animals but not my personal choice.

My interest doesn't lie with what most of you are focusing on. My interest lies mainly on the progression of the domestication process. 

At what point of the cross breeding and domestication do these dogs lose their "wild" appearance and temperment? When would they be considered "safe" and able to live with the average human family without the fears that some of you have expressed? Is there the opinion that this can and will never happen? 

Going on the assumptions that these animals are a 50% dog / 50% wolf and are bred with the same 50% dog / 50% wolf mixture with generations of selective breeding, how many generations in to the creation of this "super breed" will these animals start to undergo basic morphological and physiological changes? 

I've studied the Russian Silver Fox experiment and found it extremely facinating. My question is, if those breeders out there who want to create that "Super breed", will the same thing happen? Selective breeding and domestication over generations will result in removal of the "wolf-like" appearance and temperment? Not on purpose but as an effect of these animals no longer needing their wild instincts?

I am not saying that this should happen and that these dogs should be bred, but from a scientific point of view, I'm facinated.


----------



## msvette2u

It's ironic that people abhor the practice of taking any GSD and "watering it down", to make it comfortable to be a house member, they are working dogs after all and not couch potatoes, etc. yet will condone the practice of taking wolves from the wild and watering them down until they can live with humans.
What is the point? Is it not enough to view them from afar, leaving them in their natural habitat, is it not enough to take photos and hang them on our walls?


----------



## JakodaCD OA

there are alot of things I don't condone and abhor, but it's not going to stop it from happening

I can certainly appreciate and admire their beauty and I'm always open to learning more


----------



## Courtney

JakodaCD OA said:


> there are alot of things I don't condone and abhor, but it's not going to stop it from happening
> 
> I can certainly appreciate and admire their beauty and I'm always open to learning more


That's how I feel. No way would I want a wolf hybrid/wolf cross. I don't get the appeal or desire and don't support the breeding of such. But who the heck am I in the grand scheme of things? LOL I do find this topic interesting and appreciate both owners of these dogs sticking around for the boards grueling questions and rightfully so, we own GSD, this is weird for us!

_There's no way I could deny the beauty of the pictures posted_. They are here and at this point I only care that they are properly taken care of just like any other animal that is in ones care.


----------



## webdome

GrammaD said:


> Either way they are _*not sterile*_, which is what you originally claimed


They are. Sterility also means they can't produce livable offspring. They only can produce another hybrid. I didn't say they are infertile.
Now, can you please explain why I should search for Haldane rule?


----------



## GrammaD

webdome said:


> They are. Sterility also means they can't produce livable offspring. They only can produce another hybrid. I didn't say they are infertile.
> Now, can you please explain why I should search for Haldane rule?


If they can reproduce they are not sterile.



“When in the offspring of two different animal races one sex is absent, rare, or sterile, that sex is the heterozygous sex "- Haldane

There is more detail if you read his work. But since we see that female hybrid offspring are not sterile while often the males are- well, I find it fascinating anyway


----------



## Jax08

SunshineWolf said:


> That is actually the opposite, most people look for stable animals with higher F gens, this gives more confidence that the breeder did their job in breeding out or in the right traits. Low F-gens are a crap shoot, you can have so many variations in temperament and looks without any idea of whats going to come out.
> 
> My F6 male is a product of many wolfdog to wolfdog breedings and his line has been continued to be line bred for consistency. My female is an F2 and the pure can be traced back to her Grand father, her father being a true 50/50 F1 cross, behavior wise she is a tad bit more intense than my male F6



I"m very late to this party, but there is/was a study on foxes and domesticating wild animals. Each generation, they bred the wild fox that was more "tame" towards humans. They could never overcome an animal (through breeding) that did not already have this disposition. The offspring of the ones that were aggressive to humans were always aggressive to human regardles if the interaction with the parents. This basically proved that domestication was done through breeding, not by 'taming'.

Animal Domestication: Taming the Wild - Pictures, More From National Geographic Magazine

I would imagine that by selectively breeding wolves, the same results could be accomplished. In fact, that is how domesticated dogs came to be if the article is correct.


----------



## webdome

GrammaD said:


> If they can reproduce they are not sterile.
> 
> 
> 
> “When in the offspring of two different animal races one sex is absent, rare, or sterile, that sex is the heterozygous sex "- Haldane
> 
> There is more detail if you read his work. But since we see that female hybrid offspring are not sterile while often the males are- well, I find it fascinating anyway


So, the Haldane rule explains the sterility of hybrids. Since wolf/dog cross is a breed of subspecies, in which there are no physical, mechanical, chemical genetical limitation for both sex are present and both sex can reproduce.
As I remember from my college years (genetics, ecology), the Haldans rule important in population which went through genetic drift, and allies expressing bottle neck effect. Neither can be applied for hybrids.


----------



## Lilie

What I find curious, is if a person is a lover of the wolf, why would they produce offspring that are illegal to own in so many states? Why would they set the wolf/dogs up to fail from the get go? 

They are producing a product that holds no purpose (except vanity perhaps) requires a very specific type owner, and is illegal to own in many states.


----------



## webdome

Jax08 said:


> I"m very late to this party, but there is/was a study on foxes and domesticating wild animals. Each generation, they bred the wild fox that was more "tame" towards humans. They could never overcome an animal (through breeding) that did not already have this disposition. The offspring of the ones that were aggressive to humans were always aggressive to human regardles if the interaction with the parents. This basically proved that domestication was done through breeding, not by 'taming'.


Yes, it is in the pop science movie "Dogs Decoded: Nova"
PS. Not just breeding, selective breeding. So they choose the fox that were more tolerate to humane, breed them and after 5 generations, the offspring of that foxes could be a pet.


----------



## webdome

Lilie said:


> What I find curious, is if a person is a lover of the wolf, why would they produce offspring that are illegal to own in so many states? Why would they set the wolf/dogs up to fail from the get go?
> 
> They are producing a product that holds no purpose (except vanity perhaps) requires a very specific type owner, and is illegal to own in many states.


It is a social aspect, and the legitimate question would be why they are illegal to own?


----------



## GrammaD

webdome said:


> So, the Haldane rule explains the sterility of hybrids. Since wolf/dog cross is a breed of subspecies, in which there are no physical, mechanical, chemical genetical limitation for both sex are present and both sex can reproduce.
> As I remember from my college years (genetics, ecology), the Haldans rule important in population which went through genetic drift, and allies expressing bottle neck effect. Neither can be applied for hybrids.


Meh... it's my opinion that it plays a minor role in speciation. Something I find truly fascinating is emerging evidence that population dynamics may drive drift/mutation/speciation.


----------



## Freestep

Lilie said:


> What I find curious, is if a person is a lover of the wolf, why would they produce offspring that are illegal to own in so many states? Why would they set the wolf/dogs up to fail from the get go?


Ego, vanity, and $$$ are the only reasons I can figure. No one, even the wolfdog breeder here, has told me differently.



> They are producing a product that holds no purpose (except vanity perhaps) requires a very specific type owner, and is illegal to own in many states.


I don't know what kind of ethical gymnastics breeders do to justify it. Same with private breeders of big cats and other dangerous exotic animals--if they are selling only to reputable zoos, that is one thing. But selling to the general public? All I can guess is that ethics don't enter into it.


----------



## martemchik

They're illegal to protect the general public from themselves. There is no way of regulating what dog breed people purchase (we have been through this discussion hundreds of times on the forum about GSDs). This is not a safe dog to own. I don't care how many good experiences people have had, or how educated you are on the subject, you're not the only one's buying this animal. It's the ones that don't understand what they're getting into that need to be protected and just plain told NO.

It's like that guy in Ohio a couple of months ago that let out all of his wild animals. Dozens of endangered species had to be shot because they were threatening the public. It's illegal to protect those kinds of people from themselves, and the rest of us from those kinds of people. The one's that have heard a story or have met a wolfdog hybrid that was super sweet so they go out to get one and it turns out to be the opposite end of the genetic spectrum and a danger to society.


----------



## Jax08

webdome said:


> PS. Not just breeding, selective breeding. So they choose the fox that were more tolerate to humane, breed them and after 5 generations, the offspring of that foxes could be a pet.


Yes that is what I said....except the "5 generations" part.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

webdome said:


> It is a social aspect, and the legitimate question would be why they are illegal to own?


Rabies for one thing. 

HybridLaw.com - State laws regarding Hybrid cats, wolves, dogs and other animals
NWA, Legislative Issues - State Regulations

Also important to note in your state whether they consider the rabies shot given to a hybrid (or wolf) as okay. So if the dog-wolf bites, or is bitten by a rabid animal, is it an automatic PTS, or what? Because rabies studies have not been done in these animals, I believe the thought is that they are not known to be effective. This is old but: AWIC Newsletter: The Wolf-Dog Hybrid

Good example: CVMA Document

How do they test for rabies in an animal? The actual procedure? 

:greet: I know! I know! 

http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/cliented/rabies.aspx 

has some basic rabies info
http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/cliented/rabies.aspx


----------



## mosul210

Lilie said:


> What I find curious, is if a person is a lover of the wolf, why would they produce offspring that are illegal to own in so many states? Why would they set the wolf/dogs up to fail from the get go?
> 
> They are producing a product that holds no purpose (except vanity perhaps) requires a very specific type owner, and is illegal to own in many states.


First of all thanks for your input that is why we are here to discuss different ideas and facts.

Wolfdogs are actually legal in most states, for example my own. From what I understand the GSD is a working dog class does that mean owners here use their pet as a working dog? more than likely not. I also have chihuahuas and I love those little girls they provide me with nothing more than companionship. The same is for my wolfdog he is a loving pet and companion.

I know people that only like toy dogs others that prefer a larger breed such as a Mastiff. I ofcourse don't judge instead I am thankful that these animals have a loving home.


----------



## Seer

msvette2u said:


> It's ironic that people abhor the practice of taking any GSD and "watering it down", to make it comfortable to be a house member, they are working dogs after all and not couch potatoes, etc. yet will condone the practice of taking wolves from the wild and watering them down until they can live with humans.
> What is the point? Is it not enough to view them from afar, leaving them in their natural habitat, is it not enough to take photos and hang them on our walls?


I think you have missed quite a few pages in the thread. I dont believe anyone is talking about going into the wild and putting a leash on a wolf and bringing them home. Pretty sure that involves jail time. as well as missing limbs:wild:

Its fairly clear there are lots of breeding stock already out from wild, to choose from. 

These animals are here and I for one would rather attempt to control through dialogue how there placed and controlled. If someone is attempting to do something right with this why not stand behind? Not an endorsement of any breeder in this thread.

Clearly there is a market of "ignoramus" for these animals just like the Shepherd. With pressure from knowledgeable people maybe these breeders of this animals will take great care in there placement and not so many would end up in shelters.

Drive anything underground and theres no opportunity to direct its outcome.

Water down gsd.. huh Who wants a dog that cant sit on your sofa and lick your 3 year old and then rip someones arm off for trying to abduct her. I dont get what your point is here.


----------



## Lilie

Freestep said:


> I don't know what kind of ethical gymnastics breeders do to justify it. Same with private breeders of big cats and other dangerous exotic animals--if they are selling only to reputable zoos, that is one thing. But selling to the general public? All I can guess is that ethics don't enter into it.


That is the part that truly makes me sad. I think Grizzly Bears are impressive, but I don't have one. 

It would make more sense if someone came along with proof that the wolf/dogs made top notch SAR dogs, or hunting dogs (birds/game etc.), or working (police etc.) dogs, or therapy dogs, or anything else - they can't even say that they are good COMPANION dogs! 

You are so correct, nothing ethical about it.


----------



## mosul210

Freestep said:


> Ego, vanity, and $$$ are the only reasons I can figure. No one, even the wolfdog breeder here, has told me differently.


Yawwnn!...nothing but personal opinion here. I expected more too bad


----------



## martemchik

mosul210 said:


> Yawwnn!...nothing but personal opinion here. I expected more too bad


I feel proud that my thread has gotten this long...also thanks mosul210 for joining the conversation, I was hoping you would.

What was your reason for getting the dog? If it was strictly companionship then why was a regular GSD not chosen? I'm not interrogating or judging, just want the answer straight from someone that just made the choice.


----------



## Seer

Freestep said:


> Ego, vanity, and $$$ are the only reasons I can figure. No one, even the wolfdog breeder here, has told me differently.
> 
> "They are producing a product that holds no purpose (except vanity perhaps).
> 
> I cant find any working benefits since this thread began. But doesn't this argument apply to a Yorkie, poodle etc. as well.


----------



## GrammaD

Seer said:


> Freestep said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ego, vanity, and $$$ are the only reasons I can figure. No one, even the wolfdog breeder here, has told me differently.
> 
> 
> I cant find any working benefits since this thread began. But doesn't this argument apply to a Yorkie, poodle etc. as well.
> 
> 
> 
> My neighbor's poodle hunts
Click to expand...


----------



## martemchik

Seer said:


> Freestep said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ego, vanity, and $$$ are the only reasons I can figure. No one, even the wolfdog breeder here, has told me differently.
> 
> 
> I cant find any working benefits since this thread began. But doesn't this argument apply to a Yorkie, poodle etc. as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Although 99% of all dog breeds are purchased as pets in the United States. There is a small percentage that either use the dog for what it was bred for, or work it in obedience/rally/agility and all the other AKC rings. There are enough dogs that are being purchased and bred for specific goals in mind in all breeds.
> 
> The distinction between wolf hybrid and "all american dog" is that most "all american dogs" aren't bred on purpose, where as a wolf hybrid is bred on purpose by breeders because they will get paid mucho bucks for that dog.
Click to expand...


----------



## Lilie

martemchik said:


> Seer said:
> 
> 
> 
> The distinction between wolf hybrid and "all american dog" is that most "all american dogs" aren't bred on purpose, where as a wolf hybrid is bred on purpose by breeders because they will get paid mucho bucks for that dog.
> 
> 
> 
> Lost you on this one. Most back yard breeders breed only for the money they'll make on the pups. The biggest difference that I can see is that the pups produced aren't illegal to own (in most states).
Click to expand...


----------



## Seer

martemchik said:


> Seer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Although 99% of all dog breeds are purchased as pets in the United States. There is a small percentage that either use the dog for what it was bred for, or work it in obedience/rally/agility and all the other AKC rings. There are enough dogs that are being purchased and bred for specific goals in mind in all breeds.
> 
> The distinction between wolf hybrid and "all american dog" is that most "all american dogs" aren't bred on purpose, where as a wolf hybrid is bred on purpose by breeders because they will get paid mucho bucks for that dog.
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree there are enough bad breeders breeding dogs that dont care about where their placed. Your opinion is " There are enough dogs that are being purchased and bred for specific goals in mind in all breeds"
> 
> Is it the money they make thats wrong or is it placing the dog in a wrong environment for money?
Click to expand...


----------



## Seer

Lilie said:


> martemchik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lost you on this one. Most back yard breeders breed only for the money they'll make on the pups. The biggest difference that I can see is that the pups produced aren't illegal to own (in most states).
> 
> 
> 
> But who cares whats illegal in your state if Im over here in this one? If they take care in the placement, whats the issue? They are breeding something that doesn't go to work?
Click to expand...


----------



## martemchik

Lilie said:


> martemchik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lost you on this one. Most back yard breeders breed only for the money they'll make on the pups. The biggest difference that I can see is that the pups produced aren't illegal to own (in most states).
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah but you don't make that much money on a mixed breed. The purebreds absolutely...but the mixed breeds don't go for much because you can just go to a shelter and get one.
Click to expand...


----------



## Seer

GrammaD said:


> Seer said:
> 
> 
> 
> My neighbor's poodle hunts
> 
> 
> 
> My apologies to your neighbor, I withdraw the poodle and throw in a fat wiener dog...
Click to expand...


----------



## Freestep

mosul210 said:


> Yawwnn!...nothing but personal opinion here. I expected more too bad


Like I said, no one has told me differently.

If someone could make a compelling ethical argument for breeding wolfdogs, I'd be all ears.


----------



## webdome

Draugr said:


> To my knowledge the myth behind von Stephanitz using a wolf in the GSD breed was almost if not entirely perpetuated by Tina Barber, founder of the Shiloh Shepherd. When I do a search on this any major sources of information almost exclusively wind up linking back to a rather bizarre article she wrote.
> 
> I don't know what her agenda is but there is zero credible evidence to suggest that he did, and plenty to suggest that he did not. The wolf has little to nothing to offer the domestic pet or working dog. I honestly cannot see von Stephanitz using wolf in his dogs at all.
> 
> Talk:German Shepherd/Archive 1 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Talk:German Shepherd - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> There seems to be a consistent edit war by an unsigned user to interject this information. I've seen it pop on and off the German Shepherd Dog article a dozen times at least, since the first time I ever read it. One week GSDs are descended from wolves (recently speaking, that is), the next week, they are not. Toss a coin.
> 
> Wikipedia is generally reliable, but if something seems suspect (such as von Stephanitz using wolves to create the GSD), look into the talk page history.
> 
> An interesting look at the "GSDs are wolfdogs" myth, that I found after some quick searching:
> 
> The Wolf-Like Dog


In the original German Shepherd studbook, Zuchtbuch fur Deutsche Schaferhunde (SZ), within the 2 pages of entries from SZ #41 to SZ #76, there are 4 Wolf Crosse
Pedigree Progeny list for 2X VA1 Hektor von Schwaben - German Shepherd Dog


----------



## martemchik

Seer said:


> GrammaD said:
> 
> 
> 
> My apologies to your neighbor, I withdraw the poodle and throw in a fat wiener dog...
> 
> 
> 
> Again, I don't see your point. As I've stated, 99% of dogs aren't used for any purpose but companionship. But that 1% is used for certain venues. Some (including the daschund are still used for their original purpose). There are tons of dogs in the AKC and other breed rings all over the country and world. The point I'm trying to make about a wolf/hybrid is that NONE of them are used for any of these things. They are all very expensive (I'm assuming, but please correct me if I'm wrong) companions.
Click to expand...


----------



## Courtney

This was an interesting read.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...ok-shows-pure-wolves-used-founders-breed.html


----------



## webdome

Freestep said:


> Like I said, no one has told me differently.
> 
> If someone could make a compelling ethical argument for breeding wolfdogs, I'd be all ears.


As I said before genetic variations resulted in more fit offspring, it is a law of genetics.


----------



## Lilie

Freestep said:


> Like I said, no one has told me differently.
> 
> If someone could make a compelling ethical argument for breeding wolfdogs, I'd be all ears.


In 1858 the Lacy brothers developed a breed to work free roaming hogs, in the cross they were said to utilize the wolf and coyote. They had specific reasons for using what they did including the Greyhound and English Shepherd. They created a serious working/game dog, The Texas Blue Lacy. 

What I see the wolf being used now is just for specific look or color for monetary gain.


----------



## martemchik

webdome said:


> As I said before genetic variations resulted in more fit offspring, it is a law of genetics.


Fit for what?!?!? No one has yet to answer this question.

I'm assuming for companionship since right now that is the only thing the hybrid could be used for. So what makes a wolf's genetics more fit for companionship?


----------



## GrammaD

martemchik said:


> Lilie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah but you don't make that much money on a mixed breed. The purebreds absolutely...but the mixed breeds don't go for much because you can just go to a shelter and get one.
> 
> 
> 
> Unless it is a "designer breed." I know people who were stupid enough to pay more for a puggle than they would have for a nicely bred pug!
> 
> Never underestimate the stupidity of the american consumer
Click to expand...


----------



## GrammaD

Seer said:


> GrammaD said:
> 
> 
> 
> My apologies to your neighbor, I withdraw the poodle and throw in a fat wiener dog...
> 
> 
> 
> Earth dog  We have a ton of doxies at our club doing earth dog
> 
> None are fat though!
Click to expand...


----------



## Lilie

GrammaD said:


> martemchik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Never underestimate the stupidity of the american consumer
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly why wolf/dogs are illegal to own in some states!
Click to expand...


----------



## webdome

martemchik said:


> Fit for what?!?!? No one has yet to answer this question.


For Life, (it is not a toast ) Survival of the fittest concept is evolutionary idea of natural selection.


----------



## Seer

martemchik said:


> Seer said:
> 
> 
> 
> Again, I don't see your point. As I've stated, 99% of dogs aren't used for any purpose but companionship. But that 1% is used for certain venues. Some (including the daschund are still used for their original purpose). There are tons of dogs in the AKC and other breed rings all over the country and world. The point I'm trying to make about a wolf/hybrid is that NONE of them are used for any of these things. They are all very expensive (I'm assuming, but please correct me if I'm wrong) companions.
> 
> 
> 
> Would it be correct to state that you feel, unless this breed serve's a purpose to the 1% you should not be allowed to breed this animal. I think that is what I keep getting here?
Click to expand...


----------



## webdome

As an example breeders constantly add to the stock different bloodlines.


----------



## Courtney

How are some members quotes being connected to another members in this thread? Yikes!


----------



## martemchik

For life? What life? What in life are they more fit for than the average dog? Guess what, my GSD is way more fit to survive than any wolf. Want to know why? He has me! A constant supply of food, shelter, and anything else he could possibly need including protection from anything that might harm him.


----------



## martemchik

Seer said:


> martemchik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Would it be correct to state that you feel, unless this breed serve's a purpose to the 1% you should not be allowed to breed this animal. I think that is what I keep getting here?
> 
> 
> 
> That's the general thought of the public and most members of this board. That 1% are usually the people purchasing from reputable breeders/sources and are the types of owners that would do anything for their dog. So yes, I do believe that.
Click to expand...


----------



## webdome

martemchik said:


> including protection from anything that might harm him.


Should be via verse.


----------



## Freestep

webdome said:


> As I said before genetic variations resulted in more fit offspring, it is a law of genetics.


Yeah, fit for WHAT? Tell me how they are more "fit" than the domestic dog, and how this "fitness" benefits the animal (or human) in any way.

If these animals were being used to repopulate a wild canid population, you might have an argument.


----------



## GrammaD

webdome said:


> For Life, (it is not a toast ) Survival of the fittest concept is evolutionary idea of natural selection.



It is actually about adaptability. Since we now know that social stressors have genetic impact (may be the primary driver of speciation) it isn't as simple as "we can improve the genetic viability of a sub-species by outcrossing with another sub-species."

There is a self limiting effect with wolf-dog crosses. And given that there is as big a genetic bottleneck with domesticated wolves and wolf-dogs as there is with many of the breeds current "breeders" are combining with wolves/wolf-dogs I don't see the result being one of improved vigour that outweighs the negative temperament and social repercussions.

Remember that there is actually very limited genetic variation among top mammalian carnivores to begin with 

This isn't like bringing pointer into dal lines. There has been no specific genetic defect targeted by wolf-dog breeding practices.


----------



## martemchik

webdome said:


> Should be via verse.


Really? Your dog can stop bullets? Amazing...

If you don't care about losing your dog to the authorities, then feel free to let him "protect" you whenever he feels fit to do so. This is a completely off topic discussion, but in today's society I would never want my dog to make that decision because I know I'd lose him after that. I've also never felt threatened enough for anyone to protect myself so I'm not worried about my dog ever needing to do that.


----------



## martemchik

GrammaD said:


> It is actually about adaptability. Since we now know that social stressors have genetic impact (may be the primary driver of speciation) it isn't as simple as "we can improve the genetic viability of a sub-species by outcrossing with another sub-species."
> 
> There is a self limiting effect with wolf-dog crosses. And given that there is as big a genetic bottleneck with domesticated wolves and wolf-dogs as there is with many of the breeds current "breeders" are combining with wolves/wolf-dogs I don't see the result being one of improved vigour that outweighs the negative temperament and social repercussions.
> 
> Remember that there is actually very limited genetic variation among top mammalian carnivores to begin with
> 
> This isn't like bringing pointer into dal lines. There has been no specific genetic defect targeted by wolf-dog breeding practices.


This. Is. Wonderful.


----------



## SunshineWolf

Freestep said:


> Like I said, no one has told me differently.
> 
> If someone could make a compelling ethical argument for breeding wolfdogs, I'd be all ears.


First of all is anyone breeding GSD's for free? Does anyone do it to break even on the costs of a successful litter? I seriously doubt it...

Why does the need for an ethical reason needed, I doubt many of the breeds today were held to that standard. They are pets and not for everyone but for more of the hobbist, the same as a person that wants a Umbrella Cockatoo or a Boa, even a designer dog. 

Not everyone buys a shepherd for their intended purposes. Why should anyone feel the need to HAVE to explain why they would like to own a GSD let alone wolfdog, whats already been said isn't good enough for you. 

The FACT is they are around, are going no where, instead of blindly speaking in absolutes based on something you read on the internet or 1 bad case you experienced. If you wish to learn anything your trolling approach will get you nowhere.

I can speak from experience, not by hear say. I have owned both GSD's and WD's not one or two but many. I personally can sleep better at night knowing my animals come from a line that has 0 hip dysplasia in its history going back 100+ animals and is not cancer prone past the age of 6. I dont have to come home to see my prized GSD @ the age of 11 dragging his hind legs & suffering anymore. You can go see Pyro's grandparents today ones near 17 and still active and playful and alert.

They are not a "super breed" like I read someone else post and that was never the intention atleast from the few breeders I know and respect. But they are far off from a over bred, exploited breed like the GSD.


----------



## martemchik

SunshineWolf said:


> First of all is anyone breeding GSD's for free? Does anyone do it to break even on the costs of a successful litter? I seriously doubt it...
> 
> Why does the need for an ethical reason needed, I doubt many of the breeds today were held to that standard. They are pets and not for everyone but for more of the hobbist, the same as a person that wants a Umbrella Cockatoo or a Boa, even a designer dog.
> 
> Not everyone buys a shepherd for their intended purposes. Why should anyone feel the need to HAVE to explain why they would like to own a GSD let alone wolfdog, whats already been said isn't good enough for you.
> 
> The FACT is they are around, are going no where, instead of blindly speaking in absolutes based on something you read on the internet or 1 bad case you experienced. If you wish to learn anything your trolling approach will get you nowhere.
> 
> I can speak from experience, not by hear say. I have owned both GSD's and WD's not one or two but many. I personally can sleep better at night knowing my animals come from a line that has 0 hip dysplasia in its history going back 100+ animals and is not cancer prone past the age of 6. I dont have to come home to see my prized GSD @ the age of 11 dragging his hind legs & suffering anymore. You can go see Pyro's grandparents today ones near 17 and still active and playful and alert.
> 
> They are not a "super breed" like I read someone else post and that was never the intention atleast from the few breeders I know and respect. But they are far off from a over bred, exploited breed like the GSD.


Finally! A good reason!!! Thank you!!!

That is all I needed to see...you have given a reason as to why the hybrid is a good animal to own. And if to an individual those reasons outweigh the work needed to raise such an animal...I would support that decision 100%.


----------



## Seer

martemchik said:


> Seer said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's the general thought of the public and most members of this board. That 1% are usually the people purchasing from reputable breeders/sources and are the types of owners that would do anything for their dog. So yes, I do believe that.
> 
> 
> 
> Yikes... Really then I fully support no one owning any animals and all animals should be turned in and euthanized immediately for the percentage listed in your quote would make that a valid argument.
> 
> How can the general public have this view. Thats ridiculous..... Your comment is not even plausible at face value.
Click to expand...


----------



## mosul210

Seer said:


> Freestep said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ego, vanity, and $$$ are the only reasons I can figure. No one, even the wolfdog breeder here, has told me differently.
> 
> "They are producing a product that holds no purpose (except vanity perhaps).
> 
> I cant find any working benefits since this thread began. But doesn't this argument apply to a Yorkie, poodle etc. as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly my friend. I also own chihuahuas and a dachshund and they have no real purpose besides companionship. My neighbor owns a sheepdog and that poor boy does nothing but lay on the porch - heck I thought he was dead once! :crazy: That being said far be it for me to tell my neighbor he should not own his dog because I see not purpose for him.
Click to expand...


----------



## Freestep

Lilie said:


> In 1858 the Lacy brothers developed a breed to work free roaming hogs, in the cross they were said to utilize the wolf and coyote. They had specific reasons for using what they did including the Greyhound and English Shepherd. They created a serious working/game dog, The Texas Blue Lacy.


I heard it was the red wolf that was utilized. Though I have not studied Blue Lacy genetics and breeding, it is my understanding that they got what they needed in the early days, and did not need to re-infuse wolf in later generations. Therefore, we have a dog breed that neither looks nor acts like a wolf, but has certain working characteristics that have been bred for, and most of the wolfish behaviors have been bred away from. This is not what I would call a "wolfdog". 

There are many breeds that may have relatively recent wolf blood in their makeup (centuries ago as opposed to millennia). The difference between those breeds and todays "wolfdogs" is that wolf is not constantly reintroduced and re-mixed into the genome to create wolfish appearance and behavior. Today's wolfdog is made specifically to look like a wild animal, and hawked to the general public as a cool, wild looking pet. That is a far cry from the intent of the Blue Lacy and other working breeds.


----------



## webdome

It was the main reason I join this topic, huge misconception that wolf dogs are more aggressive. In reality dogs are more aggressive than wolves; however wolves are much more predatory compare to dogs.


----------



## Freestep

SunshineWolf said:


> Why does the need for an ethical reason needed


Thank you for proving my point. 

I had a feeling you would come up with the "dogs aren't ethically bred either, so why should wolfdogs be bred ethically" argument. And I agree with you there--English Bulldogs, Pekingese, etc. are animals that have horrible health problems due to the damaging physical traits humans have selected for, which I believe is NOT ethical. 

Just because other people are doing things unethically doesn't mean you should as well.


----------



## SunshineWolf

I placed one of Pyro & Magics pups from this season with a Miami PD officer / dog trainer. I will try and update as they come in on her progress. It will be nice if he gets her to the point where she can be used for work and if he decides to get her any kind of certifications. There are a few others from Miami Police Dept on next years waiting list. So maybe we will get to some of these guys doing some real work here in the states.

This is Eric and his son with their girl "Harley" taken @ Southern Breeze wolf ranch.


----------



## martemchik

Seer said:


> martemchik said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yikes... Really then I fully support no one owning any animals and all animals should be turned in and euthanized immediately for the percentage listed in your quote would make that a valid argument.
> 
> How can the general public have this view. Thats ridiculous..... Your comment is not even plausible at face value.
> 
> 
> 
> I have no idea what you're talking about at this point.
Click to expand...


----------



## mosul210

SunshineWolf said:


> I placed one of Pyro & Magics pups from this season with a Miami PD officer / dog trainer. I will try and update as they come in on her progress. It will be nice if he gets her to the point where she can be used for work and if he decides to get her any kind of certifications. There are a few others from Miami Police Dept on next years waiting list. So maybe we will get to some of these guys doing some real work here in the states.
> 
> This is Eric and his son with their girl "Harley" taken @ Southern Breeze wolf ranch.


Awesome pups, I love Southern Breeze animals. Maybe I should post pics of my new girl she is 6 wks old and growing quickly.


----------



## Freestep

webdome said:


> It was the main reason I join this topic, huge misconception that wolf dogs are more aggressive. In reality dogs are more aggressive than wolves; however wolves are much more predatory compare to dogs.


I haven't heard anyone here say that wolfdogs are more aggressive than domestic dogs, is that actually a "huge" misconception? Wolves, and most wolfdogs, are rarely aggressive toward humans. They actually make lousy guard dogs because they would sooner flee from an intruder than engage them. A human-aggressive wolfdog would be a very dangerous animal; thank GOD most of them are not... but they can still be dangerous, as they are large and powerful and have little desire to please or obey humans. Their prey drive may cause them to attack and kill small animals and sometimes even small children, which move erratically and act like prey.


----------



## SunshineWolf

Freestep said:


> Thank you for proving my point.
> 
> I had a feeling you would come up with the "dogs aren't ethically bred either, so why should wolfdogs be bred ethically" argument. And I agree with you there--English Bulldogs, Pekingese, etc. are animals that have horrible health problems due to the damaging physical traits humans have selected for, which I believe is NOT ethical.
> 
> Just because other people are doing things unethically doesn't mean you should as well.


you forgot about the GSD, look at the original standards and look at what you find today. People have destroyed the breed to a large extent like the english bulldog. Thankfully there are few breeders out today still focusing on the health and betterment of their line.


----------



## webdome

martemchik said:


> Really? Your dog can stop bullets? Amazing...
> 
> If you don't care about losing your dog to the authorities, then feel free to let him "protect" you whenever he feels fit to do so. This is a completely off topic discussion, but in today's society I would never want my dog to make that decision because I know I'd lose him after that. I've also never felt threatened enough for anyone to protect myself so I'm not worried about my dog ever needing to do that.


Once again you bringing the second subject without answering the first one. 
Contrary, German Shepherd Dogs are breed to protect and work. If by your decisions you except your dog from the activities, you will end up with unhappy dog.


----------



## SunshineWolf

Freestep said:


> Their prey drive may cause them to attack and kill small animals and sometimes even small children, which move erratically and act like prey.


Which can be said about many breeds out there. Like most breeds with the right socialization and proper raising this is not a huge problem. Supervision should be present anytime a large breed is in or around the area of a small child or animal.


----------



## martemchik

@ Sunshinewolf...I hope they can become amazing working animals! In the right hands they might be great dogs and if their health benefits are all that you speak of then they would be perfect police dogs and other working animals. But I know from research, the sarloos is not a better working animal than a GSD or a malanois, and if you want to use the argument of having wolf lines too far back, they never were better working dogs even when the breed was first established to try and get rid of distemper in dogs.

I have the same reservations about wolfdogs as I do about GSDs and malanois being placed in homes that are improper for them. But with the feeling that a wolfdog is much more dangerous to the general public than the other two breeds. I might be wrong in this perception but I'd rather live next to a GSD that isn't trained than a wolfdog that isn't trained.


----------



## Verivus

SunshineWolf said:


> First of all is anyone breeding GSD's for free? Does anyone do it to break even on the costs of a successful litter? I seriously doubt it...
> 
> Why does the need for an ethical reason needed, I doubt many of the breeds today were held to that standard. They are pets and not for everyone but for more of the hobbist, the same as a person that wants a Umbrella Cockatoo or a Boa, even a designer dog.
> 
> Not everyone buys a shepherd for their intended purposes. Why should anyone feel the need to HAVE to explain why they would like to own a GSD let alone wolfdog, whats already been said isn't good enough for you.
> 
> The FACT is they are around, are going no where, instead of blindly speaking in absolutes based on something you read on the internet or 1 bad case you experienced. If you wish to learn anything your trolling approach will get you nowhere.
> 
> I can speak from experience, not by hear say. I have owned both GSD's and WD's not one or two but many. I personally can sleep better at night knowing my animals come from a line that has 0 hip dysplasia in its history going back 100+ animals and is not cancer prone past the age of 6. I dont have to come home to see my prized GSD @ the age of 11 dragging his hind legs & suffering anymore. You can go see Pyro's grandparents today ones near 17 and still active and playful and alert.
> 
> They are not a "super breed" like I read someone else post and that was never the intention atleast from the few breeders I know and respect. But they are far off from a over bred, exploited breed like the GSD.


While I disagree on many (if not every) points, I will say this was the ONLY post supporting wolf hybrids that was worth reading on this entire thread. I still stand by my statement that wild animals, hybrids included, do not being in modern society as a pet. I also still think it's pointless to recreate the wheel when we already have dog-acting, wolf-looking breeds today.


----------



## webdome

Freestep said:


> I haven't heard anyone here say that wolfdogs are more aggressive than domestic dogs, is that actually a "huge" misconception? Wolves, and most wolfdogs, are rarely aggressive toward humans. They actually make lousy guard dogs because they would sooner flee from an intruder than engage them. A human-aggressive wolfdog would be a very dangerous animal; thank GOD most of them are not... but they can still be dangerous, as they are large and powerful and have little desire to please or obey humans. Their prey drive may cause them to attack and kill small animals and sometimes even small children, which move erratically and act like prey.


However, that was the reason for me to get involved.


Verivus said:


> That's nice. A wolfdog is not a dog, it is a hybrid. And go look at how many more maul little children and adults. Probably a lot more then those saving people. And it's quite impossible to not be opinionated seeing as how I am human; you apparently have your own so don't be opinionated yourself if you want to dole out said advice.


----------



## martemchik

webdome said:


> Once again you bringing the second subject without answering the first one.
> Contrary, German Shepherd Dogs are breed to protect and work. If by your decisions you except your dog from the activities, you will end up with unhappy dog.


Don't take offense to this but I have no idea what you're saying and I'm pretty sure its because of your grammar. I'm pretty good at understanding poor grammar but I think your use of words is wrong in certain places and I can't even come up with a word that works better in that sentence. I'm not judging you and I completely understand that English might not be your first language (it's not mine either) but I feel like we're just not understanding each other due to a loss in translation.

It seems like you're taking my posts in an extremely literal way for some reason saying that unless you work your dog you shouldn't have one (which I don't believe) and then misinterpreting some of the other statements I've made as well.


----------



## Freestep

SunshineWolf said:


> you forgot about the GSD, look at the original standards and look at what you find today. People have destroyed the breed to a large extent like the english bulldog. Thankfully there are few breeders out today still focusing on the health and betterment of their line.


Believe me, I am just as bothered by unethical breeding of GSDs as I am any other type of unethical breeding. I support the breeders who focus on health, temperament, and working ability; there are many of them on this forum.

Since it is *possible* to breed animals ethically, I still don't buy the argument that you needn't care about ethics just because other breeders don't care.


----------



## Verivus

webdome said:


> However, that was the reason for me to get involved.


I still stand by that statement as well. Wolf hybrids in modern society would rather run away then confront, that I believe. However, when locked away in an enclosure or stuck on a leash how can they run away and avoid confrontation? They can't and once they've hit their threshold they become the aggressor because they don't see any other option to an uncomfortable situation.


----------



## Seer

Martemchik 

You wrote: That's the general thought of the public and most members of this board. That 1% are usually the people purchasing from reputable breeders/sources and are the types of owners that would do anything for their dog. So yes, I do believe that.


Well reread your post.. You state that usually 99% of all animals are owned by people who purchased them from non reputable sources and would do almost nothing for their animals. And that most members of this board feel this way. Better off that no pets be out their with these kind of %, better for the pets. The general public feels they would not do almost anything for their animals, just plain silly.


----------



## SunshineWolf

martemchik said:


> @ Sunshinewolf...I hope they can become amazing working animals! In the right hands they might be great dogs and if their health benefits are all that you speak of then they would be perfect police dogs and other working animals. But I know from research, the sarloos is not a better working animal than a GSD or a malanois, and if you want to use the argument of having wolf lines too far back, they never were better working dogs even when the breed was first established to try and get rid of distemper in dogs.
> 
> I have the same reservations about wolfdogs as I do about GSDs and malanois being placed in homes that are improper for them. But with the feeling that a wolfdog is much more dangerous to the general public than the other two breeds. I might be wrong in this perception but I'd rather live next to a GSD that isn't trained than a wolfdog that isn't trained.


I'm not real familiar with the Saarloos as a breed in general, I have read a few articles on them and some of their histroy but this was years ago. I know with the CSV's they have found areas where they have excelled past the GSD, that being said its still very conditional due to not knowing where the GSD lines they are comparing them to came from.

I feel the same to a certain degree with the WD/GSD as a neighbor arguement. I do not feel that most people 4 out of 5 in todays fast paced, instant coffee society have what it takes to put the work into one of these animals. Where that GSD would have a better chance to adapt to poor conditions if they were present.

Were I would argue would be in the saftey aspect, I would feel less safe for my family if there was a stray GSD roaming loose that was a result of poor socialization and poor living conditions because that could be a ticking time bomb. The wolfdog I would be scared for my chickens and cats, if I encountered it 9/10 times it would dart off and flee the seen.


----------



## martemchik

Seer said:


> You wrote: That's the general thought of the public and most members of this board. That 1% are usually the people purchasing from reputable breeders/sources and are the types of owners that would do anything for their dog. So yes, I do believe that.
> 
> Well reread your post.. You state that usually 99% of all animals are owned by people who purchased them from non reputable sources and would do almost nothing for their animals. And that most members of this board feel this way. Better off that no pets be out their with these kind of %, better for the pets. The general public feels they would not do almost anything for their animals, just plain silly.


Ok...that's not what I said. I said that 99% of people purchase dogs as companions. These 99% get the leftover dogs from breedings or oopsy breedings that the 1% don't want. The 1% that work their dogs are going out and doing research to purchase a dog that suits them, many of the 99% don't really care about the stuff "behind the scenes" of their dog, they care about the breed and the price and maybe some "woah" factor in the dog. The part you quoted from me was relating to another post and I see where you took it out of context now so hopefully this clears it up. I'm not saying the 99% don't care about their dogs, but that the 1% is on a whole different level of dog ownership.


----------



## martemchik

SunshineWolf said:


> Were I would argue would be in the saftey aspect, I would feel less safe for my family if there was a stray GSD roaming loose that was a result of poor socialization and poor living conditions because that could be a ticking time bomb. The wolfdog I would be scared for my chickens and cats, if I encountered it 9/10 times it would dart off and flee the seen.


And now that I've been educated, I will tend to agree. But think about the general public. The news says "There are a crazy GSD and a wolfdog running around your neighborhood." What would you be more worried about as a regular member of society...or replace wolfdog with pitbull. Same story right...the GSD isn't feared as much.

I think you've hit the nail on the head with the 4 out of 5 comment though.


----------



## mosul210

martemchik said:


> I'm not saying the 99% don't care about their dogs, but that the 1% is on a whole different level of dog ownership.


Not attacking you here, matter of fact thanks for adding to the conversatoin. But can you explain what you mean by that statement? For example my wife and I own 3 rescues so obviosuly we did not research their parents but rather we felt like giving these babies a home. BTW we still have all 3 and they have become great additions to our family.


----------



## martemchik

mosul210 said:


> Not attacking you here, matter of fact thanks for adding to the conversatoin. But can you explain what you mean by that statement? For example my wife and I own 3 rescues so obviosuly we did not research their parents but rather we felt like giving these babies a home. BTW we still have all 3 and they have become great additions to our family.


I don't consider rescuing to be purchasing. I know you pay some money for the dog but generally no where near the amount if you were to go to a breeder. I know some bybs will compete with rescues due to their price point but people actively searching out a certain breed of dog without thinking about rescues usually pay more, and none of the 1% would go to a byb on purpose (although many have done that the first time and have since learned from their "mistake").


----------



## Lilie

Freestep said:


> I heard it was the red wolf that was utilized. Though I have not studied Blue Lacy genetics and breeding, it is my understanding that they got what they needed in the early days, and did *not need to re-infuse wolf in later generations. Therefore, we have a dog breed that neither looks nor acts like a wolf, but has certain working characteristics that have been bred for*, and most of the wolfish behaviors have been bred away from. This is not what I would call a "wolfdog".
> 
> There are many breeds that may have relatively recent wolf blood in their makeup (centuries ago as opposed to millennia). The difference between those breeds and todays "wolfdogs" is that wolf is not constantly reintroduced and re-mixed into the genome to create wolfish appearance and behavior. *Today's wolfdog is made specifically to look like a wild animal, and hawked to the general public as a cool, wild looking pet.* That is a far cry from the intent of the Blue Lacy and other working breeds.


Exactly my point! Breedings that take place now are based soley on looks, and have no working requirements. That would also include an animal that is to be used strictly as a pet. If this is the intent, there is no way at all the health of the breeding parents be a consideration. Nor would the stability of the parents. It just wouldn't matter.


----------



## Seer

martemchik said:


> Ok...that's not what I said. I said that 99% of people purchase dogs as companions. These 99% get the leftover dogs from breedings or oopsy breedings that the 1% don't want. The 1% that work their dogs are going out and doing research to purchase a dog that suits them, many of the 99% don't really care about the stuff "behind the scenes" of their dog, they care about the breed and the price and maybe some "woah" factor in the dog. The part you quoted from me was relating to another post and I see where you took it out of context now so hopefully this clears it up. I'm not saying the 99% don't care about their dogs, but that the 1% is on a whole different level of dog ownership.


Thanks for the rewriting but, this has a bit of stench of superiority over those that love their animals for being just them. This us and them mentality is counter productive. I cant imagine most people agreeing with your numbers, they seem way off.


----------



## Whiteshepherds

SunshineWolf said:


> Not everyone buys a shepherd for their intended purposes. Why should anyone feel the need to HAVE to explain why they would like to own a GSD let alone wolfdog,


:thumbup:Exactly! How many of us own GSD's that are trained in personal protection, herding our sheep, doing SAR etc?

I also think it's a load of you know what when people get all up in arms because someone wants a dog or wolfdog simply because they like the way the animal looks. If you're never going to do anything with a GSD besides have it as a companion, there are several other breeds that would be equally matched, so why pick the GSD except because of the way it looks?


----------



## martemchik

@Seer...There's my point...you're probably in the 1% and don't even know it!!!

There are so few people that even google a breeder they are thinking about purchasing from that who knows where you stand in regards to dog ownership. Just the fact that you're on this internet forum, discussing dog issues, and wanting to learn more, is a sign that you might be that 1%.


----------



## mosul210

Whiteshepherds said:


> I also think it's a load of you know what when people get all up in arms because someone wants a dog or wolfdog simply because they like the way the animal looks. If you're never going to do anything with a GSD besides have it as a companion, there are several other breeds that would be equally matched, so why pick the GSD except because of the way it looks?


You Sir are correct! No one here should have to justify why he or she owns their beloved GSD or for that matter why I own a chihuahua and a dachshund.


----------



## Lilie

Whiteshepherds said:


> :thumbup:Exactly! How many of us own GSD's that are trained in personal protection, herding our sheep, doing SAR etc?
> 
> I also think it's a load of you know what when people get all up in arms because someone wants a dog or wolfdog simply because they like the way the animal looks. If you're never going to do anything with a GSD besides have it as a companion, there are several other breeds that would be equally matched, so why pick the GSD except because of the way it looks?


Very true statement. But if you were to think, "Ohhh, I really like how the GSD looks, I'd really like one." and then you looked it up on AKC and found out about the temperment of the dog, you would still like to have one. 

*"Right Breed for Your Lifestyle*
Energetic and fun-loving, the breed is very fond of children once a relationship is established. He is a loyal family pet and a good guard dog, the ideal choice for many families. He requires regular exercise and grooming."

But if you liked the way a wolf/dog looks and looked up the temperment, then what driving force would you have to get one? If you were looking for an average pet?

"*Temperament and behavior*
Wolf-dog hybrids are a mixture of genetic traits, which results in less predictable behavior patterns compared to either the wolf or dog.[1] The adult behavior of hybrid pups also cannot be predicted with comparable certainty to dog pups, even in third-generation pups produced by wolfdog matings with dogs or from the behavior of the parent animals.[1] Thus, though the behavior of a single individual wolf hybrid may be predictable, the behavior of the type as a whole is not.[1] The majority of high wolf-content hybrids are very curious and are generally no more destructive than any other curious or active dogs."

We've seen hundreds of threads on here about people having to re-home their GSD because they have to move and the new place won't allow the GSD. With a Wolf/Dog - it's entire STATES that make it illegal to own one. 

Consider the obvious reasons, then remember that there is no standard in breeding the wolf/dog. To each his own. I could take my very unstable Golden and breed it to a wolf/dog and say "It's a Golden Wolf". I can sell the pups for what ever the market allows. But for what purpose? So someone can say they own a wolf/dog?


----------



## SunshineWolf

Verivus said:


> I still stand by that statement as well. Wolf hybrids in modern society would rather run away then confront, that I believe. However, when locked away in an enclosure or stuck on a leash how can they run away and avoid confrontation? They can't and once they've hit their threshold they become the aggressor because they don't see any other option to an uncomfortable situation.


I do not have an enclosure and @ 1 point had 6 in my care. 2 of which were mine at the time and 4 rescues. I can bring my oldest male out anywhere with me with and without restraints, he is intact and social and friendly to most animals & all people. Also when they reach their threshold most of them shutdown, fear defecate, or try to do their best to flee. All of which can be blamed on poor socialization and lack of exposure. 

Here is a short video of Scott Soto from Wolfheart Wolfdogs, with his male High Content "Tundra". This is another example of what a little bit training and socialization can do with a wolfdog out of well bred lines. He is calm and assertive with a large crowd of all ages, cameras flashing, people yelling out comments. No fear drive expressed at all and he played the howling game with everyone.

P1040209.MOV - YouTube


----------



## SunshineWolf

Lilie said:


> Very true statement. But if you were to think, "Ohhh, I really like how the GSD looks, I'd really like one." and then you looked it up on AKC and found out about the temperment of the dog, you would still like to have one.
> 
> *"Right Breed for Your Lifestyle*
> Energetic and fun-loving, the breed is very fond of children once a relationship is established. He is a loyal family pet and a good guard dog, the ideal choice for many families. He requires regular exercise and grooming."
> 
> But if you liked the way a wolf/dog looks and looked up the temperment, then what driving force would you have to get one? If you were looking for an average pet?
> 
> "*Temperament and behavior*
> Wolf-dog hybrids are a mixture of genetic traits, which results in less predictable behavior patterns compared to either the wolf or dog.[1] The adult behavior of hybrid pups also cannot be predicted with comparable certainty to dog pups, even in third-generation pups produced by wolfdog matings with dogs or from the behavior of the parent animals.[1] Thus, though the behavior of a single individual wolf hybrid may be predictable, the behavior of the type as a whole is not.[1] The majority of high wolf-content hybrids are very curious and are generally no more destructive than any other curious or active dogs."


Content of the animal and the lines make a huge difference, so does Filial Generation. You simply cannot bottle up all the wolfdogs out their and judge them at the same level. There comes great responsibility in selecting the right breeder, these guys are not the animal you want to be uneducated on when purchasing one. Knowing the lines and breeder and Parents is all a huge part of doing it right. Most people impulse buy these guys or buy them from just about anyone claiming wolfdogs for sale. 

I never really put much thought into why I would want to own one, I never said today is the day I'm going to go out and buy one. I never grew up fantasizing about wolves. Both of my animals were gifted to me by their breeders, not because they were left overs or surplus, but because they only put animals in the hands of responsible owners that have experience & when given the opportunity they asked me to raise one since they new my background. They heavily screen potential owners in advance and have 100% of their litters sold in advance sometimes as early as 3 years.

The people out their really doing work and producing pet quality animals all practice the same business ethics, most if not all have spay/neuter contracts & take back animals if not proven they are in the correct care as made clear in the agreement, if you end up losing the ability to own/raise the animal properly they will also take the animal back in.


----------



## Dainerra

SunshineWolf said:


> I placed one of Pyro & Magics pups from this season with a Miami PD officer / dog trainer. I will try and update as they come in on her progress. It will be nice if he gets her to the point where she can be used for work and if he decides to get her any kind of certifications. There are a few others from Miami Police Dept on next years waiting list. So maybe we will get to some of these guys doing some real work here in the states.


I'm curious to hear if they achieve this. Not because I don't think that the animals could do it, but because of vaccination laws. The vet system in the US doesn't recognize rabies shots for wolves or wolf-dogs. No police dept is going to work a dog that can't be given the legally required shots.


----------



## Syaoransbear

What kind of a lifespan can you expect out of a wolfdog?


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## mosul210

I am happy to hear that most people here want to educate themselves. Education is the reason why I am here, to learn about GSDs.

Here is a picture of my 15wk old male.


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## SunshineWolf

Dainerra said:


> I'm curious to hear if they achieve this. Not because I don't think that the animals could do it, but because of vaccination laws. The vet system in the US doesn't recognize rabies shots for wolves or wolf-dogs. No police dept is going to work a dog that can't be given the legally required shots.


In FL a wolfhybrid cross that has more than 25% dog is regulated and treated as a domestic dog. Anything F6 and higher is considered a dog. Only animals that are indistinguishable from a pure are regulated at the higher level and require a class 2.


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## Smoktya

I know this has 35 pages, and maybe this was brought up already, but Cesar Millan had a Dog Whisperer show on Wolf Hybrids. It brought a lot of interesting information out about them. I thought it was a great show.


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## SunshineWolf

Syaoransbear said:


> What kind of a lifespan can you expect out of a wolfdog?


That depends on the lines the animal comes from, its diet, daily enrichment, and exercise. Average is about 15 years which is common for a lot of large breeds, some people have 16,17,18 year old animals that are still pushing strong.


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## SunshineWolf

Smoktya said:


> I know this has 35 pages, and maybe this was brought up already, but Cesar Millan had a Dog Whisperer show on Wolf Hybrids. It brought a lot of interesting information out about them. I thought it was a great show.


Thats another thread all together, that episode makes a lot of the people in the wolfdog world cringe from all the exaggeration added to make for a show. But to take something good from it, it also shows people a clear example of the type of person that shouldn't own a wolfdog.


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## Courtney

SunshineWolf said:


> Thats another thread all together, that episode makes a lot of the people in the wolfdog world cringe from all the exaggeration added to make for a show. But to take something good from it, it also shows people a clear example of the type of person that shouldn't own a wolfdog.


LOL Ceaser Milan makes alot of GSD people cringe too, we have found common ground after 35 pages


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## Syaoransbear

I think that Caesar Milan episode was a very good thing, even if the information presented was exaggerated. The audience of that show is mostly people with problem dogs who are too lazy to find a trainer or behaviorist so they seek the advice of a TV show. Discouraging those kinds of people from owning a wolfdog is definitely a good thing lol.

One of the reasons you guys have said for making wolfdogs is to create a healthier animal that is less prone to the genetic problems that a lot of dogs have today. Has that been mostly successful?

Also, do wolfdogs get along with other dogs well, or do they get annoyed by them since dogs sort of act like wolf pups that will never grow up?


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## jetscarbie

There will always be breeds of dogs that most people shouldn't ever have. People will always want the "newest" thing.

My BIL told me the other day he wanted an Ovcharka. I just shook my head and prayed there wasn't any breeders in the US. Yep. There are breeders. My BIL doesn't even know what a Ovcharka is except he seen them on National Geo channel. I've heard of them before b/c somebody mentioned them here one time....I think they are also called Caucasian Shepherds. Now why in the world would my BIL want an animal like that? It's not like he has farm animals to herd.


----------



## Smoktya

SunshineWolf said:


> Thats another thread all together, that episode makes a lot of the people in the wolfdog world cringe from all the exaggeration added to make for a show. But to take something good from it, it also shows people a clear example of the type of person that shouldn't own a wolfdog.



I never really knew about the breed before I saw that show. To be honest, they never even crossed my mind until i watched that show. I thought it was informative and really showed, like you said, the kind of people who should not own a dog like that. There's nothing like a wolfdog running through the neighborhood, heck, I get nervous when my nieghbor's Akita is out. All in all, I thought they were pretty cool dogs, but they will never be on my radar.


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## msvette2u

jetscarbie said:


> There will always be breeds of dogs that most people shouldn't ever have. People will always want the "newest" thing.
> 
> My BIL told me the other day he wanted an Ovcharka. I just shook my head and prayed there wasn't any breeders in the US. Yep. There are breeders. My BIL doesn't even know what a Ovcharka is except he seen them on National Geo channel. I've heard of them before b/c somebody mentioned them here one time....I think they are also called Caucasian Shepherds. Now why in the world would my BIL want an animal like that? It's not like he has farm animals to herd.


Actually they are not herding dogs, they are livestock guardian breeds/dogs (LGD).
We've gotten a few in rescue. I didn't know what they were but knew they were LGDs, figured a mix of some sort of Pyrenees at first. Then we got a few in that were quite obviously "something else" than a Pyr, and I found photos of the Caucasians, and have located a breeder that assists us with screening apps and placement of these dogs. They are gorgeous. We have a lot of BYBs of LGDs in our area and someone's got their mitts on a Caucasian and is mixing them with Pyrs, Anatolians, etc., even Border Collies 
I'm told (by the breeder) it is fairly common.
Oh, and to the south of us there's a "breeder" of Golden Pyrenees (much better than a regular Pyr!!!), that's a mix of Golden Retriever and Pyrenees. 
We've been contacted at least once now by people wanting us to take a Golden Pyr (8-9mos. and 90lb. already) off their hands because it's "too much". 
Sigh. 
Job security I guess


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## martemchik

jetscarbie said:


> There will always be breeds of dogs that most people shouldn't ever have. People will always want the "newest" thing.
> 
> My BIL told me the other day he wanted an Ovcharka. I just shook my head and prayed there wasn't any breeders in the US. Yep. There are breeders. My BIL doesn't even know what a Ovcharka is except he seen them on National Geo channel. I've heard of them before b/c somebody mentioned them here one time....I think they are also called Caucasian Shepherds. Now why in the world would my BIL want an animal like that? It's not like he has farm animals to herd.


Ovcharka is Russian for herding dog...a German Shepherd is a German ovcharka. The eastern european ones were bred by the soviets from GSD stock to make them more protective and larger than the average GSD. If you were to see one, most likely you would think its an oversized GSD.

So if you wonder why anyone would like one, ask yourself why you have one.


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## Seer

Been scouring for any working aspects that might have had solid success. Not sure if this program is sidelined or still going. You see it mentioned in some recent press clippings, but when you look at competitions in China or press pictures of working dogs, I haven't found any pictures of any in action.


Kunming Wolfdog:


The breed was created in the early 1950s to meet the need for military dogs in Yunnan. A group of 10 military wolfdogs were brought to Kunming (the capital of Yunnan province) from a Beijing military training program (the breed of these 10 dogs is unknown but they are thought to be of GSD origin) More dogs were needed so 50 suitable household dogs from Kunming and 40 similar dogs from the city of Guiyang were brought in. After training, the best twenty of these 90 'civil' dogs were then selected. The 10 wolfdogs from Beijing, these 20 'civil dogs' plus an additional 10 'shepherd dogs' imported from Germany. These dogs constituted the pool from which the Kunming Dog was developed. Kunming Dogs are widely used by the Chinese military and police.























Lupo italiano:

This breed appeared in 1996 from a cross of wolf and German shepherd. For this cross one of the last wild wolves from the Apijnen area in high Lazio ( Italy) was used. The ETLI( resort for the protection of the Italian wolf) who is under the protection of the state, looks after the breeding and breeding stock, this to protect the genetic base. It’s forbidden to have or breed these dogs outside this project. These wolf dogs are given free of charge to instances, persons or society’s who commit themselves to train them and use them to goals of common profit like rescue operations, tracking missing persons, tracking drugs and explosives. They are extremely suitable to be used for rescue operations in the mountains, avalanches and disasters with a high resistance against weather environments, hunger and thirst. They are of a great use for foresters, park-keepers and game keepers by tracking persons or wounded animals with there excellent smell. They are also used for police work, in the agriculture and tend life-stock against robbery and predators, using there strong sense of territory. Like all the other wolf dogs, THEY don’t obey trough servility but rather by conviction. The height of males is from 60 to 70 cm, females from 58 to 65 cm.


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## Freestep

Seer said:


> Kunming Wolfdog:
> 
> The breed was created in the early 1950s to meet the need for military dogs in Yunnan. A group of 10 military wolfdogs were brought to Kunming (the capital of Yunnan province) from a Beijing military training program (the breed of these 10 dogs is unknown but they are thought to be of GSD origin)


The Kunming dog, as I understand, does not actually contain wolf blood. From what I've read, they are basically a line of GSD with some unknown breeds mixed in.



> Lupo italiano:
> 
> It’s forbidden to have or breed these dogs outside this project. These wolf dogs are given free of charge to instances, persons or society’s who commit themselves to train them and use them to goals of common profit like rescue operations, tracking missing persons, tracking drugs and explosives.


Take note, wolfdog breeders. This is the closest thing to an ethical breeding program that I have seen. They don't sell puppies to a pet market and are breeding for working ability. I wonder how many of these dogs are actually working?


----------



## Seer

Freestep said:


> The Kunming dog, as I understand, does not actually contain wolf blood. From what I've read, they are basically a line of GSD with some unknown breeds mixed in.
> 
> The Kunming Wolf-dog is a wolf-dog hybrid. This breed resulted from a cross between a wolf and an established breed of dog. Wolves have a reputation for being savage animals. The most common objective of dog/wolf crossing is to create a super dog, a dog breed that will manifest the outstanding qualities of both the wolf and the dog. In the 1950s, a breeding program was started in Yunnan, a far southwest province of the People's Republic of China to meet the need for military dogs. The objective of the program is to develop a breed of dog that will be used by the military. Because the province is rather low on military type dogs, a number of dogs of different breeds were gathered. Ten wolf dogs were taken from a K9 military training program in Beijing, 50 household dogs were acquired from Kunming and 40 others of similar type were procured from Guiyang, a city in Guizhon province. These dogs were trained in Kunming, Yunnan's capital. After the training, 20 dogs were selected from the 90 "civil" dogs. These 20 along with the 10 wolf dogs from Beijing and the 10 shepherd dogs imported from Germany became the foundation stock from where the Kunming Wolf-dog was developed.
> 
> 
> I have read this above alot in different configurations. It appears they are.


----------



## Freestep

Seer said:


> I have read this above alot in different configurations. It appears they are.


If you're taking this from Wikipedia, remember that anyone can edit the information there, so you have to take everything with a grain of salt. Even if there is some wolf involved in the making of the breed, from the appearance of the dogs, it is a very low content. Adding wolf does nothing to enhance biddability in a working dog, nor does it help with enhancing "guarding" behaviors, so in all likelihood if there's any wolf in these animals, it is being bred away from. I understand that China had a hard time getting their hands on working military dogs, so they had to take what they could get.


----------



## Seer

Freestep said:


> If you're taking this from Wikipedia, remember that anyone can edit the information there, so you have to take everything with a grain of salt. Even if there is some wolf involved in the making of the breed, from the appearance of the dogs, it is a very low content. Adding wolf does nothing to enhance biddability in a working dog, nor does it help with enhancing "guarding" behaviors, so in all likelihood if there's any wolf in these animals, it is being bred away from. I understand that China had a hard time getting their hands on working military dogs, so they had to take what they could get.


Im not as emotionally invested as you appear to be in downing of this or any other hybrid or? I could fill several pages of info that says that this dog comes from wolf hybrid. My interest with out investment of outcome is... wonder if anyone has benefited, Simple.

It appears biddability and or guarding behaviors are not enhanced, agreed. Im quite satisfied thats why the GSD is in their mix. But it might be harder for you argue the nose, health, strength , endurance, disease resistance and environmental adaptability. 

Wikipedia may or may not have the same info, as stated its out there in a few configurations on many pages. Below is from a translated page one of many I have come upon.

Once again it appears its so.

Yunnan Provincial Department of Agriculture yesterday revealed that a wedding, the birth of 57 years of Kunming Dog finally got the long-awaited identification, the Ministry of Agriculture, Kunming dogs livestock species (matching lines) deliver the certificate to Kunming. With this ID card, the province will be the development of Kunming dog characteristics of livestock, positive outward expansion of the market.
In 1950, the Yunnan Provincial Military Region, dogs training brigade to fill the blank of our country not their own to cultivate the good wolf breeding dogs began to choose Yunnan folk indigenous wolf dog-breeding of new varieties to cultivate, After hybridization innovation, the transverse cross-fixed, reproduction of the three stages of expansion group foster breeding, as well as several generations of soldiers running exercise in the practical work of the border, war, internal struggle, anti-terrorism riot, which lasted more than half a century to cultivate and fine properties of Kunming Dog is fixed. Has a strong attachment to Kunming Dog, excited a lively and easy training of the plateau climate, cold environment, and high temperature have a strong adaptability, can be widely used for border patrol, surveillance detection, to detect drugs and explosives, but also used as a unit and personal guard dog.


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## Pepper311

I know someone with 2 real wolves He got them because he does wildlife rehab. We got to talking about hybrid. What we came to was hybrids are more unpredictable then a real wolf. 

I even got into the same talk with a stranger that said he had a real wolf and he felt hybrids were just a mess. Very unstable you are better off with a real wolf. Funny how I have met more keepers of wolves then hybrids. 

These hybrids. Should not be bred or sold. They need to be saved. Good job taking one on.


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## SunshineWolf

Pepper311 said:


> I know someone with 2 real wolves He got them because he does wildlife rehab. We got to talking about hybrid. What we came to was hybrids are more unpredictable then a real wolf.
> 
> I even got into the same talk with a stranger that said he had a real wolf and he felt hybrids were just a mess. Very unstable you are better off with a real wolf. Funny how I have met more keepers of wolves then hybrids.
> 
> These hybrids. Should not be bred or sold. They need to be saved. Good job taking one on.


I have worked with both pet and rescued/rehabilitated wolfdogs and wolves. Unless they are trauma cases or have serious social issues, neither are unpredictable, they display many signals before anything happens.


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## Syaoransbear

Syaoransbear said:


> One of the reasons you guys have said for making wolfdogs is to create a healthier animal that is less prone to the genetic problems that a lot of dogs have today. Has that been mostly successful?
> 
> Also, do wolfdogs get along with other dogs well, or do they get annoyed by them since dogs sort of act like wolf pups that will never grow up?


Just bumping these up there because they kind of got buried in posts lol. 

What kinds of things do you have do to differently with a wolfdog vs a normal dog? (care, training, socialization, etc)


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## LadyHawk

LoveEcho said:


> I know several people with malamute mixes who tell people they're wolf mixes
> 
> I wonder if there's any legal issues, regarding exotic animals and whatnot? I'm sure it varies state by state... granted, there's also not really any way to prove it one way or another, right?


 
As an Ex ACO, I can tell you that it varies state to state. Here in Rhode Island, it is illegal to own a wolf hybrid. The mere mention is enough for an ACO to confiscate the animal - and potentially to put it down.
Right or wrong; it's the law.


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## GSDolch

Ok, so I'm not reading all this right now. So forgive me if I repeat, but has anyone mentioned the Czechoslovakian Wolfdog/Vlcak? I have been doing some research on the breed and am finding myself very drawn to them. I may just have to find one in the next few years (sooooo not ready right now lol).

I look at wolf/dog crosses the same as I do the designer breeds. Usually when it is done its...get a wolf, get a dog, have puppies, sell sell sell! IMO it shouldn't be done.


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## GSDolch

LadyHawk said:


> As an Ex ACO, I can tell you that it varies state to state. Here in Rhode Island, it is illegal to own a wolf hybrid. The mere mention is enough for an ACO to confiscate the animal - and potentially to put it down.
> Right or wrong; it's the law.


That is how it is here too. Its one of the things that worries me about getting a Vlcak. From my understanding they are no longer "wolfdogs" in anything other than a name. But that doesn't mean anything sometimes :/


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## matthewm11

My opinion is that even low % wolfdogs bred carefully like the saarloos and czeck wolfdog have temperment problems not seen in full dogs, and the goals the breeders were reaching for were not achieved, so higher % BYB wolfdogs are a huge liability. The myth that purebred GSDs are themselves "wolfdogs" (i know this has been discussed here recently and there is some disagreement but the overall consensus seems to be that GSDs have little to no recent wolf heritage) seems to fuel the idea that "reintroducing" wolf blood will somehow restore the GSD to its mythical super canine old ways, but in reality breeders are creating spooky, nervy dogs not suitable for work and not really suitable for companionship. We need to abandon the outdated concept that dogs are nothing more than "tame wolves". Different eustrus cycles, behavior, brain size etc seperates these two subspecies (IMO really they are dif species) more than people realize. I believe that the origions of dogs are more complicated than saying they are "tame wolves"- I think either they shared a common ancestor or less pack orientated, smaller southern wolves (ie: arabian wolf) self domesticated, abandoning hunting in favor of scavenging human settlements.
Its also worth noting that GSDs are likely descended from Mastiff type continental herding landraces and wolves were not abundant to use for breeding in late 19th early 20th century germany. They may look wolfy but they dont act wolfy


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## GSDolch

matthewm11 said:


> *My opinion is that even low % wolfdogs bred carefully like the saarloos and czeck wolfdog* have temperment problems not seen in full dogs, and the goals the breeders were reaching for were not achieved, so higher % BYB wolfdogs are a huge liability. The myth that purebred GSDs are themselves "wolfdogs" (i know this has been discussed here recently and there is some disagreement but the overall consensus seems to be that GSDs have little to no recent wolf heritage) seems to fuel the idea that "reintroducing" wolf blood will somehow restore the GSD to its mythical super canine old ways, but in r*eality breeders are creating spooky, nervy dogs not suitable for work and not really suitable for companionship. *We need to abandon the outdated concept that dogs are nothing more than "tame wolves". Different eustrus cycles, behavior, brain size etc seperates these two subspecies (IMO really they are dif species) more than people realize. I believe that the origions of dogs are more complicated than saying they are "tame wolves"- I think either they shared a common ancestor or less pack orientated, smaller southern wolves (ie: arabian wolf) self domesticated, abandoning hunting in favor of scavenging human settlements.
> Its also worth noting that GSDs are likely descended from Mastiff type continental herding landraces and wolves were not abundant to use for breeding in late 19th early 20th century germany. They may look wolfy but they dont act wolfy



In speaking about the CzW so far everything I have read and everyone I have talked to have said otherwise. Unlike dog/wolf crosses that you are talking about, CzW breed true now..they are a breed of dog. If you breed a GSD and a Carpathian wolf you don't get a CzW, you get a GSD/Wolf cross, which is not the same thing. So I don't think I would go so far as to even say they are low content, just that the wolf is a more recent ancestor than other breeds.

One of the issues IMO is the term "wolfdog". With the CzW I don't believe it is in reference to it being a "wolfdog" as most people (especially in the states) see it. Yes it is a new breed, but all breeds were at some point, and they did start out as an experiment but they went on to work in the military in Czechoslovakia.


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## matthewm11

Yes but wasn't the goal with chzech wolfdogs and Saarloos' to create healthier working dogs, and neither breed has proven to be suitable for police/milatary work etc. do to traits inherited from that small amount of wolf blood?

IMO if you were deadset on owning a hybrid, a czech or saarloos would be by far the better option than some BYB mutt with maybe a little or maybe even a lot of wolf blood.


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## matthewm11

Once at a dog park this guy had a little 45 lb husky mix he was claiming was 90% wolf. It did have a wolfy stop and shape to its head but unless this dog was a dwarf it was no way 90% wolf. My guess was it was a husky/border collie and the BC gave it the wolfy stop on its skull. And he told everyone in earshot about his amazing hybrid. I just chuckled under my breath. That is one tiny wolf. Even if he wasnt lying (or lied to) why announce it to the world.

My GSD/ husky mix is about 65 lbs and I get all the time if she was a hybrid, sometimes even being told I am wrong and you can tell she is wolf by her tail, or the way she walks or her scent gland mark....I always explain why she isnt, I dont want people thinking she is a hybrid, and I get a little miffed- Im proud of owning a 100% dog! Only once did I truly believe someone when they said their dog was a hybrid, and this thing was 130 lbs, easilly. After seeing this guy Im especially skeptical of the 50 pound husky or shikoku mixes I see touted as "high content wolf dogs"


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## matthewm11

Does anyone know what the ratio of wolf to dog made up the Vlak's heritage? They are pretty low % and relatively far removed generationally from a wolf, correct? I ask because even these low percentage wolfdogs are quite different tempermentally from pure GSDs from what I have read. I think they are beautiful and I guess they are a breed, not true wolf hybrids, although they go to show how a small amount of wolf can change a breed


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## GSDolch

matthewm11 said:


> Yes but wasn't the goal with chzech wolfdogs and Saarloos' to create healthier working dogs, and neither breed has proven to be suitable for police/milatary work etc. do to traits inherited from that small amount of wolf blood?
> 
> IMO if you were deadset on owning a hybrid, a czech or saarloos would be by far the better option than some BYB mutt with maybe a little or maybe even a lot of wolf blood.


The CzW was actually started as an experiment by the boarder patrol in former Czechoslovakia, by breeding a male GSD to a female wolf. I think the third/fourth gen. hybrids were then used in the military. So, yes, they are suitable for police/military work.

The Saarloos is a bit more shaky in history. The breeder actually did intent to get a dog, but didn't really get there before he died. The breed was up in the air, so to speak, until the Dutch Kennel Club recognized the breed in 1975.





matthewm11 said:


> Once at a dog park this guy had a little 45 lb husky mix he was claiming was 90% wolf. It did have a wolfy stop and shape to its head but unless this dog was a dwarf it was no way 90% wolf. My guess was it was a husky/border collie and the BC gave it the wolfy stop on its skull. And he told everyone in earshot about his amazing hybrid. I just chuckled under my breath. That is one tiny wolf. Even if he wasnt lying (or lied to) why announce it to the world.
> 
> My GSD/ husky mix is about 65 lbs and I get all the time if she was a hybrid, sometimes even being told I am wrong and you can tell she is wolf by her tail, or the way she walks or her scent gland mark....I always explain why she isnt, I dont want people thinking she is a hybrid, and I get a little miffed- Im proud of owning a 100% dog! Only once did I truly believe someone when they said their dog was a hybrid, and this thing was 130 lbs, easilly. After seeing this guy Im especially skeptical of the 50 pound husky or shikoku mixes I see touted as "high content wolf dogs"


When someone tells me they have a wolfdog, more likely than not, I laugh. But size isn't a factor. Not all wolves are big.





matthewm11 said:


> Does anyone know what the ratio of wolf to dog made up the Vlak's heritage? They are pretty low % and relatively far removed generationally from a wolf, correct? I ask because even these low percentage wolfdogs are quite different tempermentally from pure GSDs from what I have read. I think they are beautiful and I guess they are a breed, not true wolf hybrids, although they go to show how a small amount of wolf can change a breed


Other than using a male GSD and a female wolf for the first breeding, I don't know the ratio. More wolf and more GSD were added to the mix and I think by the fourth gen. they had a breed...(I am not positive on that). ETA: Found a sight that has more details on the history. http://www.wolfsirius.com/czech_vlcak.html

By all accounts the CzW isnt that different in temp. than some dogs. They are not for everyone for sure, but not every dog is. They are loyal, have a lot of endurance, very active, stubborn, get board very easy so you have to keep them engaged and change things up, they need strong leadership, not for first time or novice dog owners, lively, they do wonderfully in a pack or independently, barking is not something the do, but they do howl.

Their temp. makes me think of quite a few different established breeds, not so much of a wolf.


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## SunshineWolf

Alaskan Noble's are a good example of a tractable wolfy looking animals, another example of not just a BYB pumping out animals. 

Alaskan Noble Companion Dogs - Home

And Mark K's NAID's (North American Indian Dog)

WDinfoandeducation

Most of the information is scattered but Russia has a wolfdog breeding project for the military, you can search up "Russian Perm Wolf Dogs" and find some links to videos and articles about their progress. From what I have read they are using them for border protection.


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## Freestep

Seer said:


> Im not as emotionally invested as you appear to be in downing of this or any other hybrid or? I could fill several pages of info that says that this dog comes from wolf hybrid. My interest with out investment of outcome is... wonder if anyone has benefited, Simple.


That's what I want to know as well. Are any of these wolf-hybrids actually WORKING? And are they successful as working dogs? More so than 100% dog working breeds?

I am "emotionally invested" in the truth about wolf/dog mixes, as the fantasy of creating some kind of "superdog" by adding wolf only misleads the public into thinking a wolfdog is a great pet, having the biddability, courage, and obedient nature to perform work that benefits society... 



> But it might be harder for you argue the nose, health, strength , endurance, disease resistance and environmental adaptability.


How would wolf blood enhance those things to something greater than a dog? Well-bred working dogs have plenty of health, strength, nose, etc. Especially "environmental adaptability"... beyond weather, wolves are NOT adaptable to new and different situations and environments outside their home territory; most would become anxious and fearful and would probably shut down. I have no idea how that benefits animal or human.

I can't think of anything that a wolfdog could do that a well-bred GSD could not do better. As to improving health and disease resistance, I think that was the idea of creating wolf-dog crosses long ago, and it was not successful in improving resistance to distemper. If anything, you could argue that dogs have greater resistance to pathogens, having been exposed to them far more often over the millennia than wolves were. I do know that many domestic breeds of livestock have greater disease resistance than their wild counterparts for that very reason.

It's tempting to say that wild wolves are more hardy than domestic dogs; in some ways, they are, but I am not convinced that disease resistance is one of those ways.


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## Syaoransbear

I gotta say, I find the longevity of the wolfdog to be very appealing. I think it's heart breaking that my dog will be lucky to make it to 10.


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## martemchik

I'm all for the supposed health benefits and longer life span, but the working ability is something I'll never understand. I don't think there is ever going to be a wolf/dog hybrid that is easier to train and can work better than a GSD or a Mal or one of the other working breeds. I mean, how much better can the dog be that its worth the risk of not succeeding and ending up with something much more dangerous than a dog. Or another way of thinking would be, if the hybrid is harder to train, is it worth putting all the work into it if its only marginally better than a GSD.

I guess I'm thinking more in the sense of, how much harder do we need them to bite, or how much better do we need them to track than what is already possible with a GSD.


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## Dragonwyke

does it occur to anyone that those of us that HAVE wolfdogs don't really care that they aren't working dogs. we don't care that they are shy and are not protectors or defenders of the home. if we want that then we get a german shepherd. if we want a lapdog then we get chihuahua or a pekingnese (sp). 

but we have a wolfdog or two, and we appreciate what they have to offer. it's alot different than the average dog, sure, but it is what it is. 

and believe it or not, generally speaking, wolfdogs are less biters than the average dog. they have more warning signs saying they're "going" to bite, and they less often actually make contact when they do snap, and that's on purpose. if you know what you're looking at, you will not get bitten. 

dw


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## codmaster

Dragonwyke said:


> does it occur to anyone that those of us that HAVE wolfdogs don't really care that they aren't working dogs. we don't care that they are shy and are not protectors or defenders of the home. if we want that then we get a german shepherd. if we want a lapdog then we get chihuahua or a pekingnese (sp).
> 
> but we have a wolfdog or two, and we appreciate what they have to offer. it's alot different than the average dog, sure, but it is what it is.
> 
> and believe it or not, generally speaking, wolfdogs are less biters than the average dog. they have more warning signs saying they're "going" to bite, and they less often actually make contact when they do snap, and that's on purpose. if you know what you're looking at, you will not get bitten.
> 
> dw


 
*"..they have more warning signs saying they're "going" to bite.." -- sure sounds like a good enough reason to want one!*


----------



## Dragonwyke

codmaster said:


> *"..they have more warning signs saying they're "going" to bite.." -- sure sounds like a good enough reason to want one!*



warning signs are a good thing. it gives you the chance to back off or change tactics. more often than not a wolf dog will just ignore you completely if you screw something up, unless you go out of your way to hurt them and then you'd have to corner them to make them snap at you. 

my sasha will not respond to heavy handed correction, at all. you have to handle her w/kid gloves at all times. she will answer to you because she wants to, that's the only reason. you have to give her a reason to want to. food is not the best reason to make her want to. if i treat her kindly, with respect and i give her attention, love, talk to her, share w/her, she responds to me. if not, she will not. she works for a friendship, not for an ownership. 

dw


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## JakodaCD OA

First I'd like to say, THANK YOU for keeping this discussion going and civil ))) Good job peeps)

And second, I agree with DW, while some may not condone, like, agree whatever with wolf/dogs, people that have them may have them for the simple reason is, they WANT ONE

Just like anyone wanting a certain breed/type of dog/animal. The majority of german shepherds out there are NOT working dogs, they are companion animals which there is nothing wrong with. Who cares if someone has 'wolf/dogs' for no other reason that 'having' one.

And I also agree I'd rather have a warning then a full blown out of nowhere bite

Thanks for playing nice people


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## Syaoransbear

I agree, I also think wolfdogs having poor working ability is kind of a moot point. Is there even a need for another working breed? 

I think there is a need for a large breed that has fewer genetic health problems and a long life span. Perhaps they would be more difficult to train in the beginning before the breed has a more established temperament, but I find it kind of tragic that some people will go through tonnes of training only to have the dog's body fall apart in 6 years. What a tragic waste.


----------



## Freestep

JakodaCD OA said:


> The majority of german shepherds out there are NOT working dogs, they are companion animals which there is nothing wrong with.


Yes, but it's been argued on this forum a gazillion times that GSDs should not be bred FOR mere companion animals; we all want pups out of titled parents and we applaud breeders who WORK their dogs, be it SchH, obedience, real world work, etc. There are enough puppies in each working litter that don't quite have the temperament for work; those are the companion pups. They appear naturally; you don't have to breed for them. But if you breed those non-working "companion" puppies to each other, pretty soon the GSD is a watered-down version of itself. In order to preserve the breed as a WORKING breed, as it was meant to be, you want to breed only the dogs that have a real working temperament and have proven themselves in the work. You'll still get companion dogs out of such breedings.

Now, if you just want a companion dog and don't intent to work or title it, you can do either of two things: get that "companion" pup out of titled parents, or go with a breed that was created for nothing more than companionship, a little lap dog. 

For those who simply want a nice companion, a pet dog, I can't think of a worse way to do it than to put a wild animal into the mix.


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## Seer

Not sure if this relates, but a short video of 4 wolves interacting with a lady they have not seen in a few months.. Warning an altercation ensues a bit graphic reunion.


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## Chicagocanine

SunshineWolf said:


> Alaskan Noble's are a good example of a tractable wolfy looking animals, another example of not just a BYB pumping out animals.
> 
> Alaskan Noble Companion Dogs - Home


I'm confused by this website. It doesn't say anything about the parentage/breeds used. Does anyone know what they used?


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## Kaiser2012

There was a whole thread about Sako, a friends dog whom I photographed, about whether or not he was pure GSD. ---> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breeding-general/131728-black-white-wolf.html 

He was absolutely pure 100% oversized GSD, but it annoyed me when I was asked numerous times if he was part wolf (purely by the pictures, or even in person). 

I have always wanted to start a rescue for wolfdogs if I ever found myself with the time and enough property. But I know with my current job that will never happen. At any rate, I have full respect for the animals and believe that they, as many of you have said, should not be bred. Its ridiculous to breed low-content wolfdogs, just to be able to say you have one, and as far as high-contents go, whats the purpose? We already have domesticated dogs, as well as some breeds who look very wolfy without the wolf. A high-content hybrid is no different imo than a pure wolf...and that is a wild animal who belongs in the WILD. My only stipulation is this: If, for some reason, wolves (of any species) find themselves on the endangered species list, then maybe, JUST maybe, to introduce some new genes, they can be bred with other "dogs". This is actually being done to the "wild mustang descendents" on Ocracoke Island. Ponies (of similar lineage) are being bred to the horses to add new genes and to help prevent the herd from dying out. Last resort.


----------



## martemchik

Freestep said:


> Yes, but it's been argued on this forum a gazillion times that GSDs should not be bred FOR mere companion animals; we all want pups out of titled parents and we applaud breeders who WORK their dogs, be it SchH, obedience, real world work, etc. There are enough puppies in each working litter that don't quite have the temperament for work; those are the companion pups. They appear naturally; you don't have to breed for them. But if you breed those non-working "companion" puppies to each other, pretty soon the GSD is a watered-down version of itself. In order to preserve the breed as a WORKING breed, as it was meant to be, you want to breed only the dogs that have a real working temperament and have proven themselves in the work. You'll still get companion dogs out of such breedings.
> 
> Now, if you just want a companion dog and don't intent to work or title it, you can do either of two things: get that "companion" pup out of titled parents, or go with a breed that was created for nothing more than companionship, a little lap dog.
> 
> For those who simply want a nice companion, a pet dog, I can't think of a worse way to do it than to put a wild animal into the mix.


This is kind of what I was getting at...the one poster, sunshine something or other was clearly trying to prove that dogs are being bred for work, why else would they be mostly mixed with GSDs? And on the other side of the coin, if you're looking for a companion why not a different breed that has been bred for companionship for hundreds of years. I don't know why but people just don't like to admit that they like to own something that sounds cool. I'll admit that it was a huge part of the draw to owning a GSD for me. Knowing that I'll own the most BA breed of dog, knowing that when I walk down the street with him I'll get automatic respect from people.

I guess I still see it as an ego thing, at some level it just has to be (and I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that).


----------



## Whiteshepherds

Syaoransbear said:


> I gotta say, I find the longevity of the wolfdog to be very appealing.


 
Same here. We've had cats live to be 18-20, I'd love to have our dogs stay around that long.


----------



## SunshineWolf

martemchik said:


> This is kind of what I was getting at...the one poster, sunshine something or other was clearly trying to prove that dogs are being bred for work, why else would they be mostly mixed with GSDs? And on the other side of the coin, if you're looking for a companion why not a different breed that has been bred for companionship for hundreds of years. I don't know why but people just don't like to admit that they like to own something that sounds cool. I'll admit that it was a huge part of the draw to owning a GSD for me. Knowing that I'll own the most BA breed of dog, knowing that when I walk down the street with him I'll get automatic respect from people.
> 
> I guess I still see it as an ego thing, at some level it just has to be (and I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that).


I never was trying to prove they were for work, maybe you misread a little from the tons of pages. What I said was they arent 0 purpose animals, some people have tried to work them with success to a degree and some without success. 

I did try to shed some light on the few breeding programs that currently are trying to use wolfdogs for work though. What I also did try and point out though is that a lot of people purchase their animals for companionship and not for working, like many GSD owners that do not work their animals. At that point other than personal opinion why judge what anyone wants as a pet as long as they are doing it in a safe and responsible manner. 

Also fur farmers chose the GSD as well as Malamute's and Huskies to start with because they wanted to use animals that already had wolfy features and would keep some consistency of the desired look while modifying the behavior to adapt better to their living conditions.

Wolfdogs have been bred purposely and in the wild for thousands of years. Most if not all nordic breeds had wolf influence somewhere down the line. Native americans have been domesticating them for thousands of years as well.


----------



## Freestep

Whiteshepherds said:


> Same here. We've had cats live to be 18-20, I'd love to have our dogs stay around that long.


I've known dogs that have lived that long. Granted, they were small dogs, but it isn't unheard of. My GSD x Storm lived to be 16, which isn't bad for a big dog!


----------



## martemchik

SunshineWolf said:


> I never was trying to prove they were for work, maybe you misread a little from the tons of pages. What I said was they arent 0 purpose animals, some people have tried to work them with success to a degree and some without success.
> 
> I did try to shed some light on the few breeding programs that currently are trying to use wolfdogs for work though. What I also did try and point out though is that a lot of people purchase their animals for companionship and not for working, like many GSD owners that do not work their animals. At that point other than personal opinion why judge what anyone wants as a pet as long as they are doing it in a safe and responsible manner.
> 
> Also fur farmers chose the GSD as well as Malamute's and Huskies to start with because they wanted to use animals that already had wolfy features and would keep some consistency of the desired look while modifying the behavior to adapt better to their living conditions.
> 
> Wolfdogs have been bred purposely and in the wild for thousands of years. Most if not all nordic breeds had wolf influence somewhere down the line. Native americans have been domesticating them for thousands of years as well.


I get what you're saying, but I just want you to know what I don't agree with GSD breeders that breed for companionship. I'm with the crowd that says you should breed for a purpose, be it work or conformation, and have the other pups get sold to companion/pet homes. So I would call out a GSD breeder that breeds for companionship just as quickly as a hybrid breeder.

Am I correct to infer that you breed these animals? If I have followed your posts correctly then I would tell you that I support what you are doing. Its the other ones that worry me. And I haven't done research into how much a hybrid costs but I have a feeling, due to the market it would probably be higher than a well bred GSD? So the GSD byb makes x on his dogs while the hybrid byb makes 5x. Maybe its a stupid assumption, but that's just how I feel


----------



## SunshineWolf

martemchik said:


> I get what you're saying, but I just want you to know what I don't agree with GSD breeders that breed for companionship. I'm with the crowd that says you should breed for a purpose, be it work or conformation, and have the other pups get sold to companion/pet homes. So I would call out a GSD breeder that breeds for companionship just as quickly as a hybrid breeder.
> 
> Am I correct to infer that you breed these animals? If I have followed your posts correctly then I would tell you that I support what you are doing. Its the other ones that worry me. And I haven't done research into how much a hybrid costs but I have a feeling, due to the market it would probably be higher than a well bred GSD? So the GSD byb makes x on his dogs while the hybrid byb makes 5x. Maybe its a stupid assumption, but that's just how I feel


I do not breed personally, I did stud my male out to Southern Breeze because we felt that her female Blue Fawn "Magic" was the right fit for producing pet quality animals with our boy and because both animals were DNA verified and came from traceable lineages. All the pups were spoken for almost a year in advance & all went to responsible buyers with experience, with the exception of the female that went to a friend of ours that trains police work dogs here in South FL and had 0 experience with handling WD's. 

I'm with you on some if not most of the breeders of these animals out there. A lot of them wouldnt know a wolf or wolfdog from a tree, they breed husky x GSD mutts or Malamute x GSD mutts from very poor bloodlines and try to market to the uneducated, "wolfhybrids", these people get a mess of an animal with tons of behavioral issues and blame it on the "wolf". When you try to educate them, they use the excuse "i purchased him as a wolfdog so I'm going to represent it as a wolfdog" even when it was clear the animal was a no content. 

I have one person in which I had to draw out of the argument because they were certain what I own are Pure wolves and not wolfdogs because their dad had a pure malamute that they thought was a HC wolfdog.

I try to take my guys out 3-4 times a week into the public, 99% of the time when people leave the conversation or greeting with me and my guys they have a totally new view on wolves and wolfdogs. Anyone in the South Florida area that is ever interested in meeting them just PM, I'm always looking forward to meeting up new animals to socialize my group with.


----------



## Whiteshepherds

martemchik said:


> I get what you're saying, but I just want you to know what I don't agree with GSD breeders that breed for companionship. *I'm with the crowd that says you should breed for a purpose, be it work or conformation*, and have the other pups get sold to companion/pet homes. So I would call out a GSD breeder that breeds for companionship just as quickly as a hybrid breeder.


Being a pet or companion IS a purpose and one of the primary reasons people buy dogs. Breeding *just* for conformation is short sighted. A dog that looks great doesn't necessarily have a good temperament.


----------



## Whiteshepherds

Freestep said:


> I've known dogs that have lived that long. Granted, they were small dogs, but it isn't unheard of. My GSD x Storm lived to be 16, which isn't bad for a big dog!


Not bad at all! We had one dog who lived to be almost 15. He was on the small side though, about 45-50lbs. Our first GSD lived to be 12, I'm hoping we get that long with these two.


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## martemchik

Whiteshepherds said:


> Being a pet or companion IS a purpose and one of the primary reasons people buy dogs. Breeding *just* for conformation is short sighted. A dog that looks great doesn't necessarily have a good temperament.


But breeding for a companion or a pet will bring good temperament? For someone that is so against conformation (from your post) kind of interesting that you're so for pet lines being bred. What exactly guarantees these pets have good temperaments?

A breeder that breeds for the conformation ring is not short sighted. They work their dogs and pump thousands of dollars into their dogs. Just because their dogs aren't doing Schutzhund doesn't make them bad dogs. Many of those dogs do get titled in AKC obedience.

I used to think that we needed dogs for the pet market, but I realized that good breeders produce dogs for whatever they are aiming for and also produce enough dogs for the pet market. We don't need breeders that are just breeding for calm pets.


----------



## codmaster

Whiteshepherds said:


> Being a pet or companion IS a purpose and one of the *primary reasons people buy dogs*. Breeding *just* for conformation is short sighted. A dog that looks great doesn't necessarily have a good temperament.


That is very true - most dogs of all breeds are destined to be pets/companions. 

BUT when those folks buy a certain breed they expect (as they should be able to) the individual dog to be a good representative of whatever breed that they have selected and to have the expected characteristics of that breed. (At least most buyers will have some idea of the breed they are looking at!)

That is the purpose of the standard for each breed - to know what to expect.

Thus any breeder (if they are reputable and not just a "BYB" or a "Puppy Farm" looking to make a profit) will do their very best to achieve as high a compliance with the standard both physical and mental, as possible.

Breeding *just* for conformation is wrong, BUT breeding *just* for the mental characteristics is also wrong! The goal must be both!!

BTW, breeding for something deliberatly different from the breed standard is also very wrong! This includes size, shape, color, temperament (i.e. overly sharp or overly friendly) - *any* goals in opposition to the breed standard is wrong!!!!!!!!!

If that is important to you - work to change the standard! 

If you don't want to do that - pick another breed!


----------



## Appaim

codmaster said:


> If that is important to you - work to change the standard!
> 
> If you don't want to do that - pick another breed!


It seems to me that the people that own/breed hybrids are doing just that, they are changing the standard and/or picking another breed, or in this case, both.


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## codmaster

Appaim said:


> It seems to me that the people that own/breed hybrids are doing just that, they are changing the standard and/or picking another breed, or in this case, both.


 
Can you further explain what ( *** removed by Mod ***) cross breeding two different species has to do with changing a particular breed standard?


Is there a "standard" for wolf/dog hybrids? I haven't ever seen one myself but would be truly fascinated to be able to see one.


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## Syaoransbear

Why won't they approve of my account on the wolfdog forum you are guys are from .


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## Appaim

@Codmaster

I’ll admit I don’t have an answer to your question about breed standards, but it seems to me that every breed started somewhere. I’ll also admit that I’m not that knowledgeable about the history of different breeds, but it is my opinion that at the time there were more than likely plenty of naysayers around. If you wanted a new standard, a clean slate is a good place to start, because there are no preconceptions that you have to overcome. 

Also as has been pointed out numerous times before, most of us will never work our dogs as the originators of the breed intended. By that line of reasoning, most of us shouldn’t own GSD’s, or any other dog for that matter.


----------



## martemchik

Appaim said:


> Also as has been pointed out numerous times before, most of us will never work our dogs as the originators of the breed intended. By that line of reasoning, most of us shouldn’t own GSD’s, or any other dog for that matter.


No one ever says this! Just that breeders should still strive to breed dogs capable of doing the work that they were originally intended to do. You're absolutely right about breeds starting somewhere, but many of these dogs aren't being created with a specific standard in mind or a specific goal in mind. They are being made so that people can purchase a dog and tell their friends that its part wolf.

The program in Italy, or Russia, or China that has been mentioned...had a specific goal in mind of what they want to achieve by mixing in wolf genetics. What is being discussed here is the many byb's mixing in the wolf so that they can make more $$$. Notice how no one has called out the breeder of Sunshinewolf's dog...it is a responsible human being, with a goal in mind for every breeding. And even Sunshinewolf has admitted that most bybs that breed hybrids, don't care about anything but the $$$, they create poor animals that have no business being a pet.


----------



## Appaim

I fully agree with you about the byb's, and that covers all breeds not just the hybrids.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

Syaoransbear said:


> Why won't they approve of my account on the wolfdog forum you are guys are from .


The admin has to approve manually I believe.


----------



## Syaoransbear

Jessiewessie99 said:


> The admin has to approve manually I believe.


But it's been like 3 days :/. There's a breeder going by the name of noble pawz in my city and I wanted to know if it was the same one they talked about on that forum or if this person was just impersonating that breeder and using their name. It's hard to get information because their website is majorly messed up.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

Syaoransbear said:


> But it's been like 3 days :/. There's a breeder going by the name of noble pawz in my city and I wanted to know if it was the same one they talked about on that forum or if this person was just impersonating that breeder and using their name. It's hard to get information because their website is majorly messed up.


PM me your username you made for there and I will PM the admin for you to approve your account.


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## SunshineWolf

Syaoransbear said:


> But it's been like 3 days :/. There's a breeder going by the name of noble pawz in my city and I wanted to know if it was the same one they talked about on that forum or if this person was just impersonating that breeder and using their name. It's hard to get information because their website is majorly messed up.


If this is your first time interested in owning a Wolfdog I would search somewhere else to be honest. Skylar has produced some great animals in the past but on the flip side she has also produced animals with severe behavioral issues/aggression issue's as of recently.

One of her animals from her last years litter is currently on alprazolam & has severe aggression issue's as many from the same litter. There has been some speculation that she has been breeding to her pures & selling to people with 0 experience extremely high content animals. Currently a few of her animals are in circulation for adoption from her last litters produced.

I know she was trying to rehome all her animals and was having personal/financial issue's @ one point last year & now she is back to breeding, which is not a good sign either.


----------



## Debbieg

This has been a very interesting thread and glad it has stayed civil enough to go on.
I am glad those who are knowleadgable and own wolf dogs are taking the time share their experience and beautiful pictures.
I have learned that most people should not own a wolf dog (or even a GSD for that matter.) 

After having GSD's that have died too young in recent years it is very appealing to that crossing a GSD/ wolf crosses may improve health and longevity.

Can wolf/dogs be trialed in Schutzhund, agility? Can they do SAR?

A wolf/dog is defintely not for me because I love the velcroness/willingness to please of the GSD. This is why Malamutes and Huskys are not my breed even though I appreciate them. 

I do believe there are other ways of improving the health and temperament of the GSD without breeding them to wolves.

Are any other breeds besides GSD/Malamutes, Huskies being mixed with wolves? Do people do this with sporting dogs, or terriers?


----------



## Freestep

Debbieg said:


> I do believe there are other ways of improving the health and temperament of the GSD without breeding them to wolves.


Exactly!

But... then pet owners won't be able to brag about owning a cool wolfdog! 



> Are any other breeds besides GSD/Malamutes, Huskies being mixed with wolves? Do people do this with sporting dogs, or terriers?


I have seen wolf allegedly mixed with everything. It appears the people who own wolfdogs don't bother to spay/neuter, and let them breed at will with the neighbor's Lab or Pit Bull or Chow or whatever. I've seen ads on Craigslist for wolf mixed with all of the above breeds.


----------



## SunshineWolf

Debbieg said:


> Can wolf/dogs be trialed in Schutzhund, agility? Can they do SAR?


There are a few people overseas in Europe currently using CsV's and CsV x American Wolfdogs for Schutzhund and in russia they are using Malamutes x BC wolves for sled racing. I have a few links to pictures and info on them but they are to Facebook groups, PM me and I can send you links if your connected through FB.


----------



## SunshineWolf

Freestep said:


> Exactly!
> 
> But... then pet owners won't be able to brag about owning a cool wolfdog!
> 
> 
> 
> I have seen wolf allegedly mixed with everything. It appears the people who own wolfdogs don't bother to spay/neuter, and let them breed at will with the neighbor's Lab or Pit Bull or Chow or whatever. I've seen ads on Craigslist for wolf mixed with all of the above breeds.


Lol, you are a piece of work...

Because when you go to an animal shelter and craigslist you never see all the mix mutts that dog owners in general produce (sarcasm). I would probably argue with anyone that terrier and german shepherd mixes account for more than 70% of the population at most local shelters. But its just the wolfdog people that dont bother to spay or neuter their animals .


----------



## martemchik

SunshineWolf said:


> One of her animals from her last years litter is currently on alprazolam & has severe aggression issue's as many from the same litter. There has been some speculation that she has been breeding to her pures & selling to people with 0 experience extremely high content animals. Currently a few of her animals are in circulation for adoption from her last litters produced.


This quote kind of summarizes what I feel about wolf hybrids. Even good breeders have mistakes (no matter what breed) but a mistake in the hybrid world can do so much more damage than a mistake in the dog world. Someone that has produced good dogs, has turned her reputation into a money making machine and its just sad to see.

If you read this whole thread, it sounds like pro-hybrid people are completely defending the breed and telling about how great the dogs are, without any mention of the bad. And when its bad, its really bad, especially when the owners aren't prepared for it. I'm not sure if the wolfdog forum is the same, where its all great and awesome, but that's kind of what leads people to purchase a dog they aren't ready for.


----------



## GSDolch

martemchik said:


> This quote kind of summarizes what I feel about wolf hybrids. Even good breeders have mistakes (no matter what breed) but a mistake in the hybrid world can do so much more damage than a mistake in the dog world. Someone that has produced good dogs, has turned her reputation into a money making machine and its just sad to see.
> 
> If you read this whole thread, it sounds like pro-hybrid people are completely defending the breed and telling about how great the dogs are, without any mention of the bad. And when its bad, its really bad, especially when the owners aren't prepared for it. I'm not sure if the wolfdog forum is the same, where its all great and awesome, but that's kind of what leads people to purchase a dog they aren't ready for.


I'm not sure if I entirely agree with you. Just as much damage can be done by a dog, so I don't think I would say its "more" of a mistake. I hear about dog attacks all the time, I've only heard of 1 or 2 "wolf hybrid" attacks. I use that term loosely because most people say they have a wolfdog when in fact, they don't.

Just as many people are not prepared to have a GSD and it ends up really really bad also when they are not prepared for it. 

This board and seeing people and their dogs can also lead people to purchase a dog they aren't ready for. 

Every dogs breed and/or wolf/dog has its pro's and con's. There are plenty of breeds out there that people should not own, and are not prepared for and it ends up just as bad. My looking at most wolf/dog crosses as the same as designer breeds has more to do with ethics than anything.

You can't just throw together to dogs, breed them and then hand them off to joe smoe as soon as they are weened. THAT is what is bad, be it a dog or cross there of.


----------



## Freestep

SunshineWolf said:


> Lol, you are a piece of work...
> 
> Because when you go to an animal shelter and craigslist you never see all the mix mutts that dog owners in general produce (sarcasm). I would probably argue with anyone that terrier and german shepherd mixes account for more than 70% of the population at most local shelters. But its just the wolfdog people that dont bother to spay or neuter their animals .


I never said it's JUST the wolfdog people that don't bother to spay and neuter, did I? I was answering another poster's specific question about who is breeding wolfdogs and to what. This is a thread about wolfdogs, not terrier and GSD mixes and all the other breeds that wind up in shelters.

If I am a "piece of work" by being honest about what I see in my area, what does that make people who wear rose-colored glasses and ignore the truth of what really happens to wolfdogs when in the hands of the general public?


----------



## martemchik

GSDolch said:


> I'm not sure if I entirely agree with you. Just as much damage can be done by a dog, so I don't think I would say its "more" of a mistake. I hear about dog attacks all the time, I've only heard of 1 or 2 "wolf hybrid" attacks. I use that term loosely because most people say they have a wolfdog when in fact, they don't.


You've heard of less because there are way way less hybrids. That's just simple statistics. And I agree with you that you do hear about dog attacks but a dog doesn't need the enclosure requirements of a hybrid for a reason, you can have an aggressive dog and stop it with a collar and a leash, or a simple fence. These things require cement foundations and 10 ft fences...something that doesn't come by very cheap, especially when a person has already made the mistake of purchasing one without the proper research.

You can contain a dangerous GSD without the need of thousands of dollars, hybrids seem quite different.


----------



## GSDolch

martemchik said:


> You've heard of less because there are way way less hybrids. That's just simple statistics. And I agree with you that you do hear about dog attacks but a dog doesn't need the enclosure requirements of a hybrid for a reason, you can have an aggressive dog and stop it with a collar and a leash, or a simple fence. These things require cement foundations and 10 ft fences...something that doesn't come by very cheap, especially when a person has already made the mistake of purchasing one without the proper research.
> 
> *You can contain a dangerous GSD without the need of thousands of dollars, hybrids seem quite different.*



You can, but many people don't, or won't. If they did then there weren't be near as many attacks or close calls as there are.

The point is, in the wrong hands, dog or not, is a recipe for disaster.


----------



## SunshineWolf

martemchik said:


> You've heard of less because there are way way less hybrids. That's just simple statistics. And I agree with you that you do hear about dog attacks but a dog doesn't need the enclosure requirements of a hybrid for a reason, you can have an aggressive dog and stop it with a collar and a leash, or a simple fence. These things require cement foundations and 10 ft fences...something that doesn't come by very cheap, especially when a person has already made the mistake of purchasing one without the proper research.
> 
> You can contain a dangerous GSD without the need of thousands of dollars, hybrids seem quite different.


The 10ft fences and dig proof pens are to prevent losing an animal more than for safety. They get bored and some dig, some climb, some do both but this is more of a High Content thing vs Mids and Lows. I do agree if you do have an aggressive case, good containment would be a must.

Neither of mine are climbers, they mostly dig to get to the cool dirt so they can lay in it. I do not have an enclosure or dig guards at my property for containment, they live inside with us and our other dogs and share pretty much the same lifestyle. But the attention we put in to all of our animals is not typical of your average dog owner, we provide enrichment and daily exercise & hours of training.


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## SunshineWolf

martemchik said:


> If you read this whole thread, it sounds like pro-hybrid people are completely defending the breed and telling about how great the dogs are, without any mention of the bad. And when its bad, its really bad, especially when the owners aren't prepared for it. I'm not sure if the wolfdog forum is the same, where its all great and awesome, but that's kind of what leads people to purchase a dog they aren't ready for.


It's difficult sometimes to not come across this way, most of the time WD people are having to try and correct or change the perception that is already burned into most people which is usually negative. They have their issue's just like any breed, I wouldn't say that have any more or less to be honest, just a different set of challenges.


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## Freestep

SunshineWolf said:


> WD people are having to try and correct or change the perception that is already burned into most people which is usually negative.


And what "corrections" and "changes" are these?


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## SunshineWolf

Freestep said:


> And what "corrections" and "changes" are these?


I think the threads sums up many of the exaggerations and myth's. I would also love to see that wolfdog you raised if you had any pictures?


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## Freestep

SunshineWolf said:


> I think the threads sums up many of the exaggerations and myth's. I would also love to see that wolfdog you raised if you had any pictures?


Every time I ask a specific question, you dodge it. I've read this entire thread and I still don't see an answer to my question.

I'll ask again: what, specifically, are the "exaggerations" and "myths" that need correcting? What are the perceptions that need "changing"?

I do have some photos of my wolfdog, I will see if I can dig them up...


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## SunshineWolf

Freestep said:


> Every time I ask a specific question, you dodge it. I've read this entire thread and I still don't see an answer to my question.
> 
> I'll ask again: what, specifically, are the "exaggerations" and "myths" that need correcting? What are the perceptions that need "changing"?
> 
> I do have some photos of my wolfdog, I will see if I can dig them up...


They are bred for the mere purpose of creating "super breeds" is one. People are taking wild wolves and breeding them with dogs. They cannot be used for any kind of working purposes. They server no need as pets. They are more aggressive than your standard breeds and unpredictable....

Clean your glasses, please. I am not trying to dodge you, just trying to move forward and not repeat things over and over again.


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## Freestep

This is Briersting, my wolfdog, circa 1988, about 9 or 10 months old in these photos. I have no idea what content he was or what breeds he was mixed with... his breeder was representing these animals as "100% Arctic Wolf", which was obviously a lie. Being 19 years old at the time and naive as could be, I believed the guy at first. But as Brier grew, his dog heritage became obvious. He had an underbite, and I've seen some Malamutes with underbites. He sure did have a lot of wolfy behaviors, but some doggy ones, too. While I had him, he was friendly to just about everyone, loved other dogs, was very submissive to them. As he got older he became aggressive with other males according to the lady that took him in when I could no longer care for him.










This is me at age 19 with Brier and my GSDx Storm. Storm was one of the best dogs I've ever owned and lived to be 16 years old. She was the only reason I could control Brier at all--he followed her and did whatever she did, so I could control Brier by controlling Storm. Otherwise, he had his own agenda. I did teach him to sit and lie down on command (if I had a treat). But recall? Stay? Pfft. 


















As much trouble as he caused me, I loved Brier to death and was heartbroken to give him up. It was one of the biggest mistakes of my life and I paid for it dearly; so did Brier. Part of the reason I am so adamantly opposed to breeding and selling wolfdogs is my own guilt, I'll admit, but I don't wish this experience on anyone. I was taken advantage of; the breeder told me everything I wanted to hear. His dogs magically turned super-obedient after two years of age. They made superb guard dogs. They didn't bark. Well, that was sort of true; Brier rarely barked, but he was NOT quiet. He made these horrific howling screaming noises if left alone, or whenever he was unhappy or wanted something. 

The breeder told me he'd raised wolves for 10 years and his current animals were the best he'd ever had; he'd previously had a Russian Grey Wolf that was a biter and "lunched" a child once. No big deal. He showed me photos of the breeding operation he got his stock from, a lady in Oregon. All the wolfdogs were outside chained to doghouses. This guy's female lived in the house, and the pups were raised under the house. He also had a young male wolfdog he was raising up; this dog was kept on a chain in his backyard. No fence, anyone could walk right up to him. He was friendly as a 6 month old pup when I first met him, but spooky and flighty as he got older. When I met him again around age 2 or 3, I was told to "go slow", and I did, but inadvertently raised my hand a bit too quickly and the poor dog flipped his lid. Terrified, not aggressive.

People in my area hawk "wolfdogs" all the time, to anyone who shows up with the cash, and tout them as "Superdogs". They breed them with whatever is handy and sell the pups as "wolfdogs", even if they contain little to no wolf blood. The most egregious Craigslist ad I saw recently was for a wolf/Chow mix. The guy was getting rid of the dog because, predictably, it was uncontrollable and becoming aggressive (from the Chow side, I imagine). He was marketing the dog as a "guard dog for your [marijuana] grow". 

Never in my life have a met or heard of an ethical breeding program involving wolfdogs. The Italian program comes closest to what I'd consider ethical, and yet I still wonder if any of those dogs are actually working, and doing as good a job as any dog without wolf blood could do.

In my mind, there's just no reason to put wolf blood back into dogs. It certainly does not improve temperament or working ability, and an attempt to improve health/longevity is dubious at best--that can be done through selective breeding of DOGS. The ONLY reason I can see--and this is the reason I got a wolfdog--is because the owner wants something special, something unique, the cachet of mastering a wild animal and having it do your bidding, like having some kind of innate bond or link with the wild. I mistakenly thought--and the breeder led me to think--that a wolf would be the ultimate companion, protector, and would let me experience the spirit of the wild. I have always loved wolves ever since I was a child, and the thought of having a wolf as a pet was a fantasy I'd always had. When the opportunity arose to make the dream come true, I jumped on it, having no knowledge or experience of reality. Others entreated me not to do it, and I'd heard horror stories, but I thought that it would be different for me because I was going to do things my way and I'd show everyone else how it was done. Typical stupid 19 year old thinking.

If dogs became an endangered species and were in danger of dying out, perhaps there could be an argument for bringing in the wolf. But I don't see that happening anytime soon.


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## Freestep

SunshineWolf said:


> They are bred for the mere purpose of creating "super breeds" is one.


I have had wolfdog breeders and owners tell me exactly this.



> People are taking wild wolves and breeding them with dogs.


I honestly don't know where people are getting their wolves, but I never said anyone was capturing wild wolves in order to do it.



> They cannot be used for any kind of working purposes. They server no need as pets. They are more aggressive than your standard breeds and unpredictable....


They do not currently serve any working purpose. It seems there are breeders who say they are working toward it, yet I have not seen any wolfdogs actually doing the work in any real capacity. I never said they are more aggressive, generally they are not aggressive toward people. They can be unpredictable depending on the mix and how they are raised/trained by people who don't understand what they are doing.


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## SunshineWolf

Just based on the pictures I would have to say that animal is a great example a low/no content animal represented and sold as a wolfdog/high content WD, which happens far too often. There is nothing in that animal that seems wolfy in appearance aside from the coloration that is also common in Husky's and Malamutes. Short muzzle, blocky head, wide chest, heavy stop on the bridge from nose to forehead, large pointy ears not heavily furred. I would also have to say most of its bad behaviors are probably contributed to the dog breeds used and maybe a host of conflicting traits at work. Its common place for most wolfdog owners to start off with an animal that was misrepresented, to a certain degree. 

Working towards a working breed is what some are trying, the litter variations can be very unstable depending on the line, and cross you are working with. It is not uncommon though to get very wolfy looking, workable animals out of each given litter, not all the pups will take on these traits though. The hard part seems to be creating a "standard type" that maintains the desired look and workablitly. The closer you get to a stable line, the more doggy the animals start to look thus defeating some of the purpose of crossing the two animals.

Most ethical breeders if we can call them that, now take the approach of "bettering the breed" so to speak by taking in and breeding calm, well natured, healthy lines of animals to produce pet quality animals for a market saturated with misrepresentation and crappy breeders.


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## Syaoransbear

SunshineWolf said:


> If this is your first time interested in owning a Wolfdog I would search somewhere else to be honest. Skylar has produced some great animals in the past but on the flip side she has also produced animals with severe behavioral issues/aggression issue's as of recently.
> 
> One of her animals from her last years litter is currently on alprazolam & has severe aggression issue's as many from the same litter. There has been some speculation that she has been breeding to her pures & selling to people with 0 experience extremely high content animals. Currently a few of her animals are in circulation for adoption from her last litters produced.
> 
> I know she was trying to rehome all her animals and was having personal/financial issue's @ one point last year & now she is back to breeding, which is not a good sign either.


Yikes, that sounds scary. I just wanted to meet her dogs because I've never met a wolfdog. So is she actually from Saskatoon or was she just posting ads in Saskatoon?


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## SunshineWolf

Syaoransbear said:


> Yikes, that sounds scary. I just wanted to meet her dogs because I've never met a wolfdog. So is she actually from Saskatoon or was she just posting ads in Saskatoon?


I'm not sure what part of Canada she is from. If you would like to meet some of her animals as well as other wolfdogs there is a young lady by the name of Georgina that has a small rescue/sanctuary in Canmore, Alberta. Her Zues and Kuna are both noblepawz animals.

Here is a link to her website: 
Yamnuska Wolfdog Sanctuary | Just another WordPress site


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## SunshineWolf

I thought it might be a good idea to post some wolfdog informational links:

Frequently asked questions about wolves

Cottonwoods Wolfdog Info

The Wolf Dunn (hybrid wolf / wolf-dog cross info)


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## Freestep

SunshineWolf said:


> Its common place for most wolfdog owners to start off with an animal that was misrepresented, to a certain degree.


Exactly my point. I know he was not "100% Arctic Wolf" as the breeder stated; he had a lot of doggy traits, but also had some wolfish traits. I'd agree with you that he could be low/no content, except that I've had a lot of experience with Spitz type breeds... Husky, Malamute, Elkhound, Akita, etc. and never have I met a dog that behaved like Brier did (and I've met some crazy dogs). He had a "primitive" personality, in some ways more like my Akbash dog than like a Malamute or Husky. A gal I once worked with owned a high content wolfdog and a mid-content wolfdog, and her mid-content is the closest thing I've ever seen to Brier in terms of behavior. 

This woman's high-content wolfdog was effin scary. Very dominant and did not take kindly to strangers; he was fine if you ignored him, but look at him and he'd start growling; if you dared speak his name, his growling would escalate in tone and volume. Unusual for a wolfdog in that way. Fortunately, his owner could keep him under control when she was with him, but one time she brought him to work and I didn't know he was there. I walked by his kennel, did a double-take, and his reaction was lighting-fast aggression. This was not an animal to be taken lightly.

The problem with wolfdogs--you never know how the wolf and dog is going to combine and recombine. You could have an animal that looks like a dog and acts like a wolf; you could breed together two F1 hybrids and get near 100% wolf and 100% dog in the same litter. You could get a dog that looks like a wolf and acts like dog, which would be great, except that as an "ambassador" for the wolfdog "breed", it would give the impression that they are perfect pets and everyone will want to run out and get one.


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## Syaoransbear

Freestep said:


> You could get a dog that looks like a wolf and acts like dog, which would be great, except that as an "ambassador" for the wolfdog "breed", it would give the impression that they are perfect pets and everyone will want to run out and get one.


Couldn't you say the same about german shepherds though? When people bring their perfectly trained and sound german shepherd out in public but keep their neurotic fear aggressive german shepherd at home so it doesn't spoil the public's perception of the breed, I always wonder if that's maybe misrepresenting them. The majority of german shepherds do not act like these ambassador dogs.

In this poll http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...fearful-nervous-skittish-german-shepherd.html the number of people that have a german shepherd with a poor/improper temperament is alarming, especially when a higher than average amount of people on here own dogs from reputable breeders compared to the general public.


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## Freestep

Syaoransbear said:


> Couldn't you say the same about german shepherds though? When people bring their perfectly trained and sound german shepherd out in public but keep their neurotic fear aggressive german shepherd at home so it doesn't spoil the public's perception of the breed, I always wonder if that's maybe misrepresenting them. The majority of german shepherds do not act like these ambassador dogs.


That's because there is a disgustingly high number of BYB's cranking out GSDs with no care or concern for proper temperament or working ability... which is a regrettable situation. 

I don't think it misrepresents the breed to bring out proper specimens, you just have to educate people about responsible and ethical breeding practices, the proper place to acquire a purebred GSD, and how to properly raise and train one.

As an aside, I don't think people are necessarily leaving their neurotic GSDs at home, I see a lot of them out in public.


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## Chicagocanine

Syaoransbear said:


> Couldn't you say the same about german shepherds though? When people bring their perfectly trained and sound german shepherd out in public but keep their neurotic fear aggressive german shepherd at home so it doesn't spoil the public's perception of the breed, I always wonder if that's maybe misrepresenting them. The majority of german shepherds do not act like these ambassador dogs.


If I have a friendly, outgoing and well-trained German Shepherd does that mean I should keep it at home because some people might get the wrong impression of the breed if they see my dog being so friendly and well behaved?


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## Syaoransbear

Chicagocanine said:


> If I have a friendly, outgoing and well-trained German Shepherd does that mean I should keep it at home because some people might get the wrong impression of the breed if they see my dog being so friendly and well behaved?


No, although they probably do get the wrong impression. My dog has the same temperament as yours and some friends of mine(particularly my fiance's uncle who is weirdly in love with Chrono) that have met him have said they'd like a german shepherd because they want a friendly dog like mine.

I was just making a comparison because I've seen people say that people shouldn't bring their poorly behaved german shepherds out in public so german shepherds don't get a bad reputation, when really the poorly behaved german shepherd is probably more common than the one with the standard temperament. It's not how the german shepherd is supposed to be, but unfortunately it's how most of them actually are.


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## GSDolch

Chicagocanine said:


> If I have a friendly, outgoing and well-trained German Shepherd does that mean I should keep it at home because some people might get the wrong impression of the breed if they see my dog being so friendly and well behaved?



I think the point was more behind the logic. You can't say that its "bad" for people to only take wolf/dogs that are good out, but ignore the fact that people do that every day with dogs. Both *could* be considered misrepresentations in a sense.

That's how I took it anyways.


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## codmaster

Chicagocanine said:


> If I have a friendly, outgoing and well-trained German Shepherd does that mean I should keep it at home because some people might get the wrong impression of the breed if they see my dog being so friendly and well behaved?


Of course not! OTOH, a GSD is not part wild animal either.


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## Freestep

GSDolch said:


> You can't say that its "bad" for people to only take wolf/dogs that are good out, but ignore the fact that people do that every day with dogs.


I didn't say it was *bad* to take out the good ones and leave the bad ones at home. I for one am glad the neurotic, fearful ones stay at home. But the wolfdog is in a unique situation between a rock and a hard place. They can't win. If people only bring the good ones out, the publics get a pie-eyed view of them, and it furthers the fantasy of owning a wild animal. People may decide all wolfdogs are friendly, social creatures that you can take anywhere in public without worry, and they'll go pick up the next "wolfdog" puppy they see advertised on Craigslist. And of course, if you bring only the neurotic and difficult animals out, it's rather needless, and possibly even cruel to put the animal in a situation where it will be fearful and stressed. 

Yes, you could say the same thing about GSDs, but GSDs do not have wild animal bred into them and do not have the same issues with rabies vaccine, they do not have the same needs, the same behaviors, etc. For that matter, I do not believe that just any yahoo should own a GSD, either.

But for wolfdogs in particular, It puts them in peril to go parading them around and marketing them as good pets for the general public to own. I think it would tend to encourage more people to own and breed these animals, and you know who is going to suffer in the end.


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## llombardo

Freestep said:


> Yes, you could say the same thing about GSDs, but GSDs do not have wild animal bred into them and do not have the same issues with rabies vaccine, they do not have the same needs, the same behaviors, etc. For that matter, I do not believe that just any yahoo should own a GSD, either.
> 
> But for wolfdogs in particular, It puts them in peril to go parading them around and marketing them as good pets for the general public to own. I think it would tend to encourage more people to own and breed these animals, and you know who is going to suffer in the end.


What is the deal again with rabies for wolf/dogs? They can't get vaccinated or vets choose not to?


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## Freestep

llombardo said:


> What is the deal again with rabies for wolf/dogs? They can't get vaccinated or vets choose not to?


There is no rabies vaccine approved for them, so even if they are vaccinated, they cannot legally be recognized as such. If a wolfdog bites a person, they are treated as though they were not vaccinated. Meaning, last I checked, a 6 month quarantine and/or the animal is euthanized and its brain examined for the rabies virus.


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## SunshineWolf

llombardo said:


> What is the deal again with rabies for wolf/dogs? They can't get vaccinated or vets choose not to?


FDA doesn't approve the vaccine for wolfdogs. It's more of a politics issue than a ? of weather it works or not. The zoo's use it on their wolves, and most if not all wolfdog owners vaccinate them either way. Some vets for liability reasons do not take in wolfdogs for vet care or vaccination.

Once the wolfdog is past an F6 in generation it gets regulated as a dog so the vaccine issue no longer is a problem.


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## llombardo

SunshineWolf said:


> FDA doesn't approve the vaccine for wolfdogs. It's more of a politics issue than a ? of weather it works or not. The zoo's use it on their wolves, and most if not all wolfdog owners vaccinate them either way. Some vets for liability reasons do not take in wolfdogs for vet care or vaccination.
> 
> Once the wolfdog is past an F6 in generation it gets regulated as a dog so the vaccine issue no longer is a problem.



So for example a person doesn't say that their dog is part wolf, the vet doesn't know better and the dog is vaccinated? So technically if one of these dogs bite, they have proof of rabies, but one doesn't know if it works or not-so the person bit could be in trouble? Or they just assume its a dog with shots? Another question really not related to the rabies thing, but what kind of fur do wolves have, is it equivalent to a husky or malamute or completely different?


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## Debbieg

in the video posted many pages back of the woman being greeted by the wolf pack she had socialized after a few months absence it looks like one wolf is alpha rolling another. I thought wolves don't do that and that is why we should not do that with our dogs? I read the Monks of New Skete around 1999 and they promoted the alpha roll, but now this method was found to be wrong.

BTW I don't alpha roll Benny except to give belly rubs :rofl:

Are wolves ticklish and do they do the leg bicycle thing? Or is that just a dog trait?


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## codmaster

Debbieg said:


> in the video posted many pages back of the woman being greeted by the wolf pack she had socialized after a few months absence it looks like one wolf is alpha rolling another. I thought wolves don't do that and that is why we should not do that with our dogs? I read the Monks of New Skete around 1999 and they promoted the alpha roll, but now this method was found to be wrong.
> 
> BTW I don't alpha roll Benny except to give belly rubs :rofl:
> 
> Are wolves ticklish and do they do the leg bicycle thing? Or is that just a dog trait?


Not the same as a human/dog Alpha roll - in wolvews and probably in dogs as well, the movement is initiated by the submissive animal not forced by the dominant one. It is a form of appeasment, not of force.

Or so the theory goes!


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## Debbieg

codmaster said:


> Not the same as a human/dog Alpha roll - in wolvews and probably in dogs as well, the movement is initiated by the submissive animal not forced by the dominant one. It is a form of appeasment, not of force.
> 
> Or so the theory goes!


I think you are right Codmaster. In looking at the video again it looks like the submissive wolf offered the belly roll as if to say "Sorry, my bad, don't hurt me"


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## codmaster

My 4yo male will also often roll over and give me his belly for a rub! And holds his front paws out of the way so I can get his WHOLE belly!

He has never done this for anyone (even his friendly humans) except my wife and I - behaviorist says it is a definite sign of submission!


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## Syaoransbear

Debbieg said:


> Reunion between Anita and the wolves - YouTube


Wow there's an amazing amount of body language going on there. It would be neat for a behaviorist to slow down that video and analyze it all. 

I think I'd be pretty nervous about the two dogs barring their teeth at each other with me in the middle lol.


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## matthewm11

I think that part of the appeal with Wolfdogs is because of Misconceptions about the origion of domestic dogs. Wolfdogs are mostly or exclusively created using North American or European gray wolves- the largest, most specialized and pack orientated of the varied gray wolf subspecies. Dogs are descended from southern Asian and/or Arabic wolves which are smaller and are generalized in behavior and often scavenge for food. They are also less pack orientated. 
Crossing a dog with a highly specialized predator that is hardwired for life in a very specific environment is not a good idea IMO. Dogs are neonatic (although GSDs less so then the average breed) meaning they retain puppy like morphology and behavior throughout their lives. Domestication gives them that luxury. Neonety makes dogs more suitable for the relative boring comfort of domestic life. Wild wolves on the other hand live a deadly serious life where every day is a brutal life and death struggle. It's about consuming enough calories and passing genetic material on to the next generation and little else- with little time for anything else. When you take a highly specialized social
predator out of the wild and put it in a domestic setting where it's meals and shelter provided, all of a sudden they have all kinds of time on their hands and without being able to focus it's efforts towards bringing down big game, it has more time to worry about things like pack rank. These are not animals designed to live in a house or in enclosures in the back yard. It's no wonder that containment is such an issue with some higher content wolf dogs.
I have nothing against established low content wolfdog breeds like the vlak or Saarloos. I am sure many wolfdogs make excellent companions. These are wolfdogs that were lucky enough to have there dog genes more expressed in it's temperament. It's a good companion in spite of it's wolf blood, not because of it.


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## von Bolen

For alittle background for what I'm about to say, I volunteer and give education tours at Wolf Haven.

Simply put, these are not 'domesticated wolves'. What these creatures are is the undoing of 10,000 years of evolution. They are a mixed bag of wild and domestic genetics(which can/will clash internally), and that makes for an unpredictable animal. Sure, you have cases of a long life without incidents. But more often than not are cases of a child or even an adult being attacked and/or killed by a wolf/dog hybrid. For the good of the wolf cause, we try to discourage people from owning wolves and hybrids.


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## codmaster

von Bolen said:


> For alittle background for what I'm about to say, I volunteer and give education tours at Wolf Haven.
> 
> Simply put, these are not 'domesticated wolves'. What these creatures are is the undoing of 10,000 years of evolution. They are a mixed bag of wild and domestic genetics(which can/will clash internally), and that makes for an unpredictable animal. Sure, you have cases of a long life without incidents. But more often than not are cases of a child or even an adult being attacked and/or killed by a wolf/dog hybrid. For the good of the wolf cause, we try to discourage people from owning wolves and hybrids.


 
Thank you! At last a voice and reason combined with real experience!


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## von Bolen

I don't try nor want to judge people that have differing opinions on the matter, but alot of it is just common sense, to me.

I love, LOVE wolves, but I would NEVER, EVER want to own one or a hybrid. The amount of attention and patience/will power that is required with raising and owning these animals is 50 times the amount you would have to give to the worst tempered GSD. All those wild instincts are still there. The possessivness(you just DO NOT try to take something back from them), the territoriality, placing itself in rank among it's pack(your household)... the list goes on. Wolves belong in the wild, and hybrids shouldn't have ever been bred in the first place. Most of them are born sterile because it is not exactly a natural breeding. Food for thought.


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## mosul210

von Bolen said:


> I don't try nor want to judge people that have differing opinions on the matter, but alot of it is just common sense, to me.
> 
> I love, LOVE wolves, but I would NEVER, EVER want to own one or a hybrid. The amount of attention and patience/will power that is required with raising and owning these animals is 50 times the amount you would have to give to the worst tempered GSD. All those wild instincts are still there. The possessivness(you just DO NOT try to take something back from them), the territoriality, placing itself in rank among it's pack(your household)... the list goes on. Wolves belong in the wild, and hybrids shouldn't have ever been bred in the first place. Most of them are born sterile because it is not exactly a natural breeding. Food for thought.


Don't mean to come off as an antagonist here but for someone who doesn not judge the ownership of a wolfdog you sure list quite a few personal reasons on why people should not own one. 

Also what is your name? for someone doing volunteer work with wolfdogs you should know they are not hybrids they are indeed the same species so not a hybrid - the proper term is wolfdogs. Also because they are not hybrids they are not borned steril, and I believe you said the opposite. I am not questioning your knowledge or exposure to wolfdogs, but you do have me confused


----------



## SunshineWolf

von Bolen said:


> For alittle background for what I'm about to say, I volunteer and give education tours at Wolf Haven.
> 
> Simply put, these are not 'domesticated wolves'. What these creatures are is the undoing of 10,000 years of evolution. They are a mixed bag of wild and domestic genetics(which can/will clash internally), and that makes for an unpredictable animal. Sure, you have cases of a long life without incidents. But more often than not are cases of a child or even an adult being attacked and/or killed by a wolf/dog hybrid. For the good of the wolf cause, we try to discourage people from owning wolves and hybrids.


I am not questioning you being a volunteer, but a guide to educational tours? I seriously doubt it, your facts are totally off/skewed...I would expect better from wolf haven.

"But more often than not are cases of a child or even an adult being attacked and/or killed by a wolf/dog hybrid."

In my 6 years working/volunteering at various rescues and private facilities I have yet to recieve a wolfdog that was seized & being held because it attacked or killed a child/adult. The cases are out there and are few in numbers and widely publicized, also take a look at how many domesticated canines are guilty of the same.

If your worried about a bite, you shouldnt own any kind of animal for that matter because it's the risk and part of the territory with all animals domestic or exotic.



> I don't try nor want to judge people that have differing opinions on the matter, but alot of it is just common sense, to me.
> 
> I love, LOVE wolves, but I would NEVER, EVER want to own one or a hybrid. The amount of attention and patience/will power that is required with raising and owning these animals is 50 times the amount you would have to give to the worst tempered GSD. All those wild instincts are still there. The possessivness(you just DO NOT try to take something back from them), the territoriality, placing itself in rank among it's pack(your household)... the list goes on. Wolves belong in the wild, and hybrids shouldn't have ever been bred in the first place. Most of them are born sterile because it is not exactly a natural breeding. Food for thought.


I agree with you on the amount of work needed to raise a well balanced, social wolfdog. It is at a higher level than your average dog owner is willing to put in but still along the lines of what a dedicated owner would put into a working GSD. 

All the wild instincts are still there? Most if not all these wolves being mixed are from captive bred lines dating to the 30's + add a slew of dog genes over generations, you have nothing even remotely comparable to a wolf aside from some of the looks and diluted behaviors.

Born sterile? are you serious? if you like I can send you a few images via PM to show you some rare footage of 2 wolfdogs getting "tied" and some of their RARE hybrid offspring. What you might have been confused with is that most upper mid-high content wolfdogs & pures, both male and female, cycle only once a year during the winter months unlike dogs that can reproduce year round.


----------



## Freestep

von Bolen said:


> Most of them are born sterile because it is not exactly a natural breeding.


I wish wolf/dog hybrids were born sterile. It would make this whole discussion moot. But wolves and dogs do indeed interbreed and produce fertile offspring. 

There are some wild cat hybrids that are born sterile.


----------



## Dragonwyke

von Bolen said:


> For alittle background for what I'm about to say, I volunteer and give education tours at Wolf Haven.
> 
> Simply put, these are not 'domesticated wolves'. What these creatures are is the undoing of 10,000 years of evolution. They are a mixed bag of wild and domestic genetics(which can/will clash internally), and that makes for an unpredictable animal. Sure, you have cases of a long life without incidents. But more often than not are cases of a child or even an adult being attacked and/or killed by a wolf/dog hybrid. For the good of the wolf cause, we try to discourage people from owning wolves and hybrids.


in all the study i've done i don't remember EVER reading of such a case. do you have stats on this? proven? discouraging ownership is one thing which is a good thing, however, providing false facts - unethical. 

_"I don't try nor want to judge people that have differing opinions on the matter, but alot of it is just common sense, to me.

I love, LOVE wolves, but I would NEVER, EVER want to own one or a hybrid. The amount of attention and patience/will power that is required with raising and owning these animals is 50 times the amount you would have to give to the worst tempered GSD. All those wild instincts are still there. The possessivness(you just DO NOT try to take something back from them), the territoriality, placing itself in rank among it's pack(your household)... the list goes on. Wolves belong in the wild, and hybrids shouldn't have ever been bred in the first place. Most of them are born sterile because it is not exactly a natural breeding. Food for thought. _ _"_

and how is it NOT a natural breeding? wolves, dogs, and coyotes breed naturally, in the wild, all the time. 

Coyote-Wolf Hybrids Have Spread Across U.S. East

Study: Eastern wolves are hybrids with coyotes - Boston.com

these animals are not sterile by any means. WHERE would you get that idea? HYBRID is a popular term, tho the wrong one to use as a hybrid, like a mule IS sterile, that's why those of us who DO know the animals in question, call them wolfdogs NOT wolf hybrids. they are not sterile because they are all the same species, just different breeds. not any different then say different races of the human species. 

if you have these simple facts incorrect, how can anything else you have to say be trusted? 

dw~


----------



## Falkosmom

Dragonwyke said:


> in all the study i've done i don't remember EVER reading of such a case. do you have stats on this? proven? discouraging ownership is one thing which is a good thing, however, providing false facts - unethical.
> 
> 
> dw~


There was a case a few months ago in my area where a wolf dog killed a young child. Was it really a wolf dog? Who knows? Anybody that finds a mixed GSD or Husky automatically has a wolf dog.


----------



## matthewm11

mosul210 said:


> Don't mean to come off as an antagonist here but for someone who doesn not judge the ownership of a wolfdog you sure list quite a few personal reasons on why people should not own one.
> 
> Also what is your name? for someone doing volunteer work with wolfdogs you should know they are not hybrids they are indeed the same species so not a hybrid - the proper term is wolfdogs. Also because they are not hybrids they are not borned steril, and I believe you said the opposite. I am not questioning your knowledge or exposure to wolfdogs, but you do have me confused


Would you reccomend a GSD to anyone regardless of experience and familiarity with the breed? Ive had people meet my dog and ask about the breed I try to be honest so that I am not doing a disservice to either the people asking orvthe dog itself. That's our responsibility as GSD owners, otherwise the dogs could wind up with an even worse reputation do to being owned by owners not equipped to care for them. The same is true with any powerfull breed and especially for wolfdogs. Whats the gain of painting an idealistic portrait of them? 

In my opinion the question of whether dogs and wolves are the same species is one of semantics, and afterall its just our way to organize and catalog different animals. Sure, they share a lot of DNa and can produce fertile offspring but humans share about as much DNA with chimps as dog to wolves and many animals of different species can create fertile offspring, including 
dogs with jackals or coyotes. The fact of the matter is that their behavior, morphology, eustrus cycles, brain size are all different and they also fill 
extremely diffefent ecological niches. These are compelling arguments
that could be made to say that they are different species. Evolution and natural (or in the case with dogs unnatural) selection is static and just because dogs were once (arguably...) grey wolves doesnt mean that is still the case. 

What is most impressive to me about dogs is how different they are from their natural cousins. Without these diffefences herding, hunting and flock guardians dog would never have been around and human beings may still be nomadic hunter gatherers today. Dogs helped man make farming more effecient and domesticate other animals. We owe dogs a tremendous debt of gratitude and should celebrate and embrace the very qualities that made it possible.


----------



## matthewm11

Dragonwyke said:


> in all the study i've done i don't remember EVER reading of such a case. do you have stats on this? proven? discouraging ownership is one thing which is a good thing, however, providing false facts - unethical.
> 
> _"I don't try nor want to judge people that have differing opinions on the matter, but alot of it is just common sense, to me.
> 
> I love, LOVE wolves, but I would NEVER, EVER want to own one or a hybrid. The amount of attention and patience/will power that is required with raising and owning these animals is 50 times the amount you would have to give to the worst tempered GSD. All those wild instincts are still there. The possessivness(you just DO NOT try to take something back from them), the territoriality, placing itself in rank among it's pack(your household)... the list goes on. Wolves belong in the wild, and hybrids shouldn't have ever been
> bred in the first place. Most of them are born sterile because it is not exactly a natural breeding. Food for thought. _ _"_
> 
> and how is it NOT a natural breeding? wolves, dogs, and coyotes breed naturally, in the wild, all the time.
> 
> 
> You say that because dogs and wolves can breed fertile offspring they are the same species, yet contradict this argument by pointing out that wolves and coyotes can mate in the wild as well. As I am sure you are aware, coyotes are not considered a sub-species of the grey wolf. They are genetically very similar, hence the ability to mate, but are otherwise very different animals. producing fertile offspring is not the end all be all of determining whether two
> animals belong to the same species.


----------



## codmaster

mosul210 said:


> Don't mean to come off as an antagonist here but for someone who doesn not judge the ownership of a wolfdog you sure list quite a few personal reasons on why people should not own one.
> 
> Also what is your name? for someone doing volunteer work with wolfdogs you should know they are not hybrids they are indeed the same species so not a hybrid - the proper term is wolfdogs. Also because they are not hybrids they are not borned steril, and I believe you said the opposite. I am not questioning your knowledge or exposure to wolfdogs, but you do have me confused


 
So you think that our domestic dog and the wolf are the same species?

Does that also include ALL species of wolves? How about coyotes - them too?

Don't want to make you feel bad but maybe check the facts:

Here is one on many sites that list the different wolf species:
Wolf Breeds (Wolf Species and Subspecies)

FYI!


----------



## msvette2u

It is not a natural breeding because dogs would not exist out in the wild. 
It has nothing to do with their genetics and everything to do with the fact that dogs are there is man's doing, not nature's.


----------



## Freestep

matthewm11 said:


> As I am sure you are aware, coyotes are not considered a sub-species of the grey wolf. They are genetically very similar, hence the ability to mate, but are otherwise very different animals. producing fertile offspring is not the end all be all of determining whether two
> animals belong to the same species.


Coyotes, while having very similar genetics to both wolves and dogs, have very different behavior, body language, and expression than either wolves or dogs. That is one way to differentiate a coyote from a Red wolf--they may look very similar, but coyotes and wolves have different behaviors.

At any rate, it's sort of beside the point whether dogs, wolves, coyotes, etc. are genetically similar or the same species, and it's beside the point to get hung up on the semantics of the word "hybrid". Technically speaking, a true hybrid is the offspring of two different species (ie donkey and horse) and the offspring is usually sterile. However, people do use the term when crossbreeding animals of the same species.

The issue with wolfdogs is the same regardless of whether the breeding is "natural", "hybrid", "outcross" or what have you. It makes no difference what you call it... it's still a problem.


----------



## SunshineWolf

matthewm11 said:


> and how is it NOT a natural breeding? wolves, dogs, and coyotes breed naturally, in the wild, all the time.
> 
> You say that because dogs and wolves can breed fertile offspring they are the same species, yet contradict this argument by pointing out that wolves and coyotes can mate in the wild as well. As I am sure you are aware, coyotes are not considered a sub-species of the grey wolf. They are genetically very similar, hence the ability to mate, but are otherwise very different animals. producing fertile offspring is not the end all be all of determining whether two
> animals belong to the same species.


All that said, all tests done to this day still point at most dogs originating from European and Asian gray wolves.


----------



## SunshineWolf

Freestep said:


> That is one way to differentiate a coyote from a Red wolf--they may look very similar, but coyotes and wolves have different behaviors.


You might find this cool,

Genetic testing of Red wolves has shown that somewhere down the line they were/had influenced by coyotes, this is also showing up in the north american gray wolves.

http://www.canids.org/PUBLICAT/CNDNEWS3/2conserv.htm

and I agree there are mild behavioral changes between them all


----------



## Freestep

SunshineWolf said:


> You might find this cool,
> 
> Genetic testing of Red wolves has shown that somewhere down the line they were/had influenced by coyotes, this is also showing up in the north american gray wolves.
> 
> Red Wolves: to Conserve or not to Conserve


Yes, I'm aware that there has been some interbreeding.


----------



## Castlemaid

Freestep said:


> The issue with wolfdogs is the same regardless of whether the breeding is "natural", "hybrid", "outcross" or what have you. It makes no difference what you call it... it's still a problem.


Agreed! I always feel that when people start veering off the issues, and start arguing about semantics, it is an effort to try and gain credibility by arguing superficial points.


----------



## mosul210

msvette2u said:


> It is not a natural breeding because dogs would not exist out in the wild.
> It has nothing to do with their genetics and everything to do with the fact that dogs are there is man's doing, not nature's.


Say what? what about the native wild canine species like the Carolina Dog?

_During the last 30 years, the capture and study of free-ranging dogs in remote areas of South Carolina and Georgia has revealed the existence of dogs of primitive appearance fitting the typical long-term pariah (i.e, primitive/dingo) morphotype._

_The *Carolina Dog*, or *American Dingo*, is a __landrace__ or __naturally selected__ type of dog which was discovered living as a __wild dog__ or free roaming dog by Dr Lehr.J. Brisbin._

If you need more information you can google Carolina dog. Bottom line is we can all use our web browser and throw facts and personal opinions back and forth. I am not going to insult the members of this forum because I feel they are quite intelligent to identify what side of the fence everyone is on. Lets face it, some people's mind are already made up; My hope is that those still on the fence can keep an open mind and learn something new. You don't have to agree with me, as a matter of fact I prefer that people make up their own mind.


----------



## msvette2u

Again with the WIKI?

Wolves would not naturally breed with dogs, nor would coyotes. That domesticated dogs are there are man's doing. I was responding to someone else's assertion that it's "natural" for them to mate with domesticated dogs.


----------



## matthewm11

SunshineWolf said:


> All that said, all tests done to this day still point at most dogs originating from European and Asian gray wolves.


Actually studies suggest dogs and wolves split over 100,000 years ago, yet evidence for domestication only starts showing up within in the last 15,000 years. My favorite theory is that the ancestors of modern dogs starting hanging around scavenging human settlements long before man took a proactive role in his taming. Donestication was a gradual process.

This is much more logical than the concept of a bronze age human taking in orphaned wolf cubs. It would take considerable time, effort and recourses to tame and care for the animal, and I woukd think it would almost impossible to contain a sexually mature female in season or male that smells fertile females in the area. If owners today have diffaculty with this I can only imagine how hard it would be back than. And all this effort for what? It would be many, many generations of selective breeding before you got a donesticated aninal capable of work- the origional wolf tamer would be long dead before he would see the fruits of his condiderable efforts


----------



## matthewm11

mosul210 said:


> Say what? what about the native wild canine species like the Carolina Dog?
> 
> _During the last 30 years, the capture and study of free-ranging dogs in remote areas of South Carolina and Georgia has revealed the existence of dogs of primitive appearance fitting the typical long-term pariah (i.e, primitive/dingo) morphotype._
> 
> _The *Carolina Dog*, or *American Dingo*, is a __landrace__ or __naturally selected__ type of dog which was discovered living as a __wild dog__ or free roaming dog by Dr Lehr.J. Brisbin.[/
> 
> If you need more information you can google Carolina dog. Bottom line is we can all use our web browser and throw facts and personal opinions back and
> forth. I am not going to insult the members of this forum because I feel they are quite intelligent to identify what side of the fence everyone is on. Lets face it, some people's mind are already made up; My hope is that those still on the fence can keep an open mind and learn something new. You don't have to agree with me, as a matter of fact I prefer that people make up their own mind._


_


Carolina Dogs are like Dingos, which are descended from domestic dogs that went feral. What is really interesting is that despite the fact that these dogs have been wild for thousands of years, they act much like domestic dogs if raised in a domestic setting. Ive met domestic Carolina Dogs and they act no different than other primative breeds. This is why it is my opinion that dogs and wolves are very different animals. Its when wolfdog ownership is rationalized with the argument "wolves and dogs are the same" that I take issue with._


----------



## Freestep

mosul210 said:


> Say what? what about the native wild canine species like the Carolina Dog?
> 
> _During the last 30 years, the capture and study of free-ranging dogs in remote areas of South Carolina and Georgia has revealed the existence of dogs of primitive appearance fitting the typical long-term pariah (i.e, primitive/dingo) morphotype._


What does this have to do with wolfdogs?


----------



## SunshineWolf

matthewm11 said:


> Actually studies suggest dogs and wolves split over 100,000 years ago, yet evidence for domestication only starts showing up within in the last 15,000 years. My favorite theory is that the ancestors of modern dogs starting hanging around scavenging human settlements long before man took a proactive role in his taming. Donestication was a gradual process.
> 
> This is much more logical than the concept of a bronze age human taking in orphaned wolf cubs. It would take considerable time, effort and recourses to tame and care for the animal, and I woukd think it would almost impossible to contain a sexually mature female in season or male that smells fertile females in the area. If owners today have diffaculty with this I can only imagine how hard it would be back than. And all this effort for what? It would be many, many generations of selective breeding before you got a donesticated aninal capable of work- the origional wolf tamer would be long dead before he would see the fruits of his condiderable efforts


How the process took place I'm not arguing its all theory at the moment and little FACT. You said it yourself "Actually studies suggest dogs and wolves split over 100,000 years ago"


----------



## Dragonwyke

matthewm11 said:


> Its when wolfdog ownership is rationalized with the argument "wolves and dogs are the same" that I take issue with.


there's not a single one of us that owns wolfdogs that has said wolves and dogs or wolfdogs and dogs are the same. as a matter of fact, we've all said they're far different and require different care altogether. being able to breed together, having close to the same genetics does not put them at the same level of pet quality. none of us has said that. 

dw~


----------



## Freestep

msvette2u said:


> Wolves would not naturally breed with dogs, nor would coyotes. That domesticated dogs are there are man's doing. I was responding to someone else's assertion that it's "natural" for them to mate with domesticated dogs.


Wolves will in fact breed with dogs in the wild if a perfect storm of events occurs, but it is a hundred times more likely that they would chase down, kill, and possibly eat the dog.


----------



## matthewm11

Freestep said:


> Coyotes, while having very similar genetics to both wolves and dogs, have very different behavior, body language, and expression than either wolves or dogs. That is one way to differentiate a coyote from a Red wolf--they may look very similar, but coyotes and wolves have different behaviors.
> 
> At any rate, it's sort of beside the point whether dogs, wolves, coyotes, etc. are genetically similar or the same species, and it's beside the point to get hung up on the semantics of the word "hybrid". Technically speaking, a true hybrid is the offspring of two different species (ie donkey and horse) and the offspring is usually sterile. However, people do use the term when crossbreeding animals of the same species.
> 
> The issue with wolfdogs is the same regardless of whether the breeding is "natural", "hybrid", "outcross" or what have you. It makes no difference what you call it... it's still a problem.


This is more or less what I was trying to say, Im just not as well spoken. Despite how genetically similar they are, a domestic animal and a wild animal are two very different thing.


----------



## matthewm11

Dragonwyke said:


> there's not a single one of us that owns wolfdogs that has said wolves and dogs or wolfdogs and dogs are the same. as a matter of fact, we've all said they're far different and require different care altogether. being able to breed together, having close to the same genetics does not put them at the same level of pet quality. none of us has said that.
> 
> dw~


No wolfdog owner has ever made this argument? OK, I stand corrected then. Afterall, its not like people ever make uniformed mistakes and are unprepared or get wolfdogs for the wrong reasons. For this reason there are no wolfdogs that are euthanized or live in shelters, right? There are no unscrupulous breeders misleading buyers about the effort required for raising a wolfdog. Thanks for clearing that up.


----------



## msvette2u

Freestep said:


> Wolves will in fact breed with dogs in the wild if a perfect storm of events occurs, but it is a hundred times more likely that *they would chase down, kill, and possibly eat the dog.*


Same with coyotes.


----------



## Dragonwyke

matthewm11 said:


> No wolfdog owner has ever made this argument? OK, I stand corrected then. Afterall, its not like people ever make uniformed mistakes and are unprepared or get wolfdogs for the wrong reasons. For this reason there are no wolfdogs that are euthanized or live in shelters, right? There are no unscrupulous breeders misleading buyers about the effort required for raising a wolfdog. Thanks for clearing that up.



ON THIS THREAD smart aleck! 

people make uninformed decisions all the time, there are thousands of animals destroyed every day across the country in shelters, and there are hundreds of unscrupulous breeders and idiot buyers all over the place, that have NOTHING to do w/wolfdogs as well as with wolfdogs. there are some of us that own them, some of us that are involved in rescue, and some of us that know what we're talking about ALL AT THE SAME TIME. and are NOT here just to troll for reaction. 

nice to see that someone has finally shown up to troll for just that sort of thing. 

i'm off this thread. it's got nothing left to say that's new that isn't antagonizing. learned alot, said enough, now i'm just getting pi$$ed off. 

dw~


----------



## matthewm11

Dragonwyke said:


> ON THIS THREAD smart aleck!
> 
> people make uninformed decisions all the time, there are thousands of animals destroyed every day across the country in shelters, and there are hundreds of unscrupulous breeders and idiot buyers all over the place, that have NOTHING to do w/wolfdogs as well as with wolfdogs. there are some of us that own them, some of us that are involved in rescue, and some of us that know what we're talking about ALL AT THE SAME TIME. and are NOT here just to troll for reaction.
> 
> nice to see that someone has finally shown up to troll for just that sort of thing.
> 
> i'm off this thread. it's got nothing left to say that's new that isn't antagonizing. learned alot, said enough, now i'm just getting pi$$ed off.
> 
> dw~


I wasn't talking about you or anyone who posted in this thread, but about wolfdog owners in general. You said "no wolfdog owners..." If I knew you were talking about just people on this thread I would of corrected you the first time. My point was never to make any of it personal or judge anyone, in fact I didnt even realize you owned a wolfdog. Im sure you mentioned its hard to rememver who said what. I never once addressed a specific member about owning a wolfdog. I'm a troll? None of my posts were personal. No where do I condemn all wolfdog owners. All I have been saying is that dogs and wolves are different and explaining why I think that. My last post was the only one that was anything that could be seen as the slightest bit antagonistic, and it was only because I didnt know you were only talking about people in this thread.


----------



## von Bolen

Look, I don't want to start conflicts on this site because GSD's mean alot to me. I'm involved with the political side of the wolf controversy, so i deal with ALOT of butt-hurted arguements and screaming contests. I don't want to see that here.

Anyways, I said MOST are born sterile. Not all, I don't know the percentage rate. I agree with an early post and can put it this way. Yes, geneticall dogs and wolves are close, but the breeding between the two is similar to a human breeding with a chimp. It's possible, but it's not right.

This whole "Not hybrid's, they are wolfdogs" is a hair splitting arguement that to be honest, just muddies the discussions. It really is just semantics.

Yes, wolves and dogs can and will breed. But that doesn't make it ok and justifiable. Again with the 'mixed bag of genetics' example.

As far as attacks go, it wasn't that long ago a woman was killed by her hybrids. It was featured on Animal Planet.

On the red wolf/coyote thing, yes, they have mixed. But that was due to mans war against wolves and the red wolf having less breeding oppertunities, so they turned to coyotes. There were exactly 14 pure red wolves left in the wild when we scooped them up to save them.

As far as my involvement at Wolf Haven that was questioned, let me know and I can personally give you an education tour. With a place like that, I wouldn't lie about my involvement in any way. My name is Dallas, by the way.


----------



## msvette2u

We try to get by Wolf Haven at least 1x a year (we're in Eastern WA). 
I'll be sure to try to come on a day when you're there!


----------



## Draugr

von Bolen said:


> Anyways, I said MOST are born sterile. Not all, I don't know the percentage rate. I agree with an early post and can put it this way. Yes, geneticall dogs and wolves are close, but the breeding between the two is similar to a human breeding with a chimp. It's possible, but it's not right.


I don't know if you are talking about "wolfdogs" at all but if you are, this is completely incorrect.

Wolves and dogs the same species, and consistently reproduce perfectly fertile offspring. I don't think the sterility rate is any much higher than any other creature.

A hybrid is the result of a pairing of two animals within the same genus - like a lion and a tiger, for instance. Wolves/Dogs are two different subspecies. It's nothing to do with "splitting hairs" and everything to do with actual scientific taxonomy.

Coyotes, on the other hand, are not the same species. The offspring of a coyote and a wolf or dog have a higher-than-normal sterility rate and subsequent generations of those born fertile show an ever-increasing sterility rate as well as a high rate of genetic defects - something you'd expect of a true hybrid species.

Wolves and dogs, on the other hand, as well as their offspring, can freely interbreed into virtually infinity without necessarily arising into any more fertility, genetic issues, or behavioral issues (the ability or inability to communicate with others of his/her "species") than would result from close inbreeding or other "semi-natural" genetic bottlenecks in any mammalian species alive today.

As for humans and chimpanzees, they don't even have the same number of chromosomes, and are not the same species _or_ the same genus. You have to back clear up to tribe (Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Tribe, Genus, Species, Subspecies) before we are classified together. The comparison is illegitimate. A breeding (assuming you mean the dictionary definition of "producing offspring) is literally impossible. Scientists do not just assign classification willy-nilly based on what they are feeling that day, there are very clear criteria to be followed.


----------



## SunshineWolf

von Bolen said:


> Anyways, I said MOST are born sterile. Not all, I don't know the percentage rate. I agree with an early post and can put it this way. Yes, geneticall dogs and wolves are close, but the breeding between the two is similar to a human breeding with a chimp. It's possible, but it's not right.


MOST are not born sterile... This is the first I've ever heard of wolfdogs and sterility issues, I would love to know where this info is coming from.

the breeding between the two is similar to a human breeding with a chimp... Apples and Oranges.

Dallas, I'm honestly scared for what crazyness people have in their mind leaving wolfhaven after having a guided tour by you.


----------



## mosul210

matthewm11 said:


> Carolina Dogs are like Dingos, which are descended from domestic dogs that went feral. What is really interesting is that despite the fact that these dogs have been wild for thousands of years, they act much like domestic dogs if raised in a domestic setting. Ive met domestic Carolina Dogs and they act no different than other primative breeds. This is why it is my opinion that dogs and wolves are very different animals. Its when wolfdog ownership is rationalized with the argument "wolves and dogs are the same" that I take issue with.


 
LOL....this is nothing but an opinion. That is the same as saying my wolfdog actually behaves better at his age than my other dogs did - that's no lie. 

I think this thread has run its course. Its just the same people trying to use google to get a rise out of others....Yawwwn...I'm getting bored.


----------



## msvette2u

> Its just the same people trying to use google to get a rise out of others....Yawwwn...I'm getting bored.


You know, I kinda hate to point out the obvious but all you have is WIKI to look things up and that's a whole lot more unreliable than digging up scientific date and papers on google.

Draug, I looked up some data, and found this - I'm appalled but here it is - 
http://www.scotsman.com/news/exclus...hould-we-beware-the-apeman-s-coming-1-1165816

And there's a case for other species to be able to breed, as with Shoats, as the professor points out.


----------



## Draugr

msvette2u said:


> You know, I kinda hate to point out the obvious but all you have is WIKI to look things up and that's a whole lot more unreliable than digging up scientific date and papers on google.
> 
> Draug, I looked up some data, and found this - I'm appalled but here it is -
> Exclusive: Half man, half chimp - should we beware the apeman's coming? - News - Scotsman.com
> 
> And there's a case for other species to be able to breed, as with Shoats, as the professor points out.


I'm not sure how reliable that source is - they seem to be doing a lot of fear-mongering, aka: "If it isn't banned, it's going to happen!" "Nobody knows what we'll get!"

It reads like bad, sensationalist journalism. Don't get me wrong, I find the idea abhorrent, but it just sounds like some extreme backlash against what somebody found out that they might be able to do in the future, in a lab. So omg, we've got to ban stuff, now, or else! I see it happen all the time here in the USA, although normally with far less reprehensible concepts.

Sheep/Goat hybrids - from what I'm briefly able to dig up, most die as embryos or are stillborn. In very rare cases - even more rare than in a lion/tiger pairing - they are born live.

I thought chromosomal differences had more of an impact than that, however - interesting.


----------



## von Bolen

I get my info from years of studying the books on wolf biology. I didn't go to college, but I did this studying on my own free time and will.

Someone said it below, wolves and dogs are infact different. Instincts are different, brain sizes and inner-workings are different, hormones work differently...

I'm not going to argue things to death. Wolves should not mix with dogs and people should think responsible enough to not take part in contributing to the problem, plain and simple. It's unsafe, and it's unfair to all involved. Yes, dogs and wolves are related and similar, but they are not the same creature. They are thousands and thousands of years apart in evolution. Wolves and their genetics BELONG in the WILD. There is no arguing that, whatsoever. Hybrids/wolfdogs, whatever you want to call them, are unpredictable and are liabilities to the rights of domestic dogs and the cause of wolves in our country. If you had to deal with what I deal with on bringing wolves back, you would realize that hybrids/wolfdogs are an unnecissary liability to the progress we are making in the political world of courtroom brawls over wildlife. I've said what I have to say and feel there is no need for me to say anything else. Either you agree or disagree, but I've had this discussion COUNTLESS, COUNTLESS times and I am quite tired of it. I came to this forum for GSD's, not more wolf bullmess that i already have a full plate of.


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## Draugr

> I came to this forum for GSD's, not more wolf bullmess that i already have a full plate of.


You are perfectly free to bow out and stick to GSD-only threads if that is what pleases you. Nobody is keeping you in this thread at gunpoint.

~

I agree - wolves and dog should not be mixed, period. There is nothing to be gained. The very idea is abhorrent to me. But the way to stop it is not by spreading misinformation about fertility rates or drawing inept comparisons to human/chimpanzee hybrids (which outside of a lab setting - and maybe even in - is impossible).


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## von Bolen

You are right. It's just a very personal issue that has worn my patience down over time. I can be rash about it, I can admit.

As far as information and it's validity, I have found that in this world of internet and the easiness of falsifying documents, it's almost a moot effort to prove what you say, because they can easily discredit your word with something they made up with a completely incorrect but seemingly verifiable source. The internet has it's pro's, but even more cons.

Maybe i am wrong about the sterility. For the sake of WH and not giving misinformation, I will turn back to my books and get a refresher on the subject.


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## matthewm11

mosul210 said:


> LOL....this is nothing but an opinion. That is the same as saying my wolfdog actually behaves better at his age than my other dogs did - that's no lie.
> 
> I think this thread has run its course. Its just the same people trying to use google to get a rise out of others....Yawwwn...I'm getting bored.


Carolina Dogs are dogs that went feral and were redomesticated. That isn't opinion. They are dogs- a very ancient lineage but dogs none the less. They aren't the direct result of breeding domestic dogs to wild wolves but are the descendents of the dogs that came with the first settlers to North America. I don't understand what they have at all to do with wolfdogs or why you are taking my experience and opinion of Carolina Dogs as an insult about wolfdogs. They are apples and oranges and one isnt really germaine to discussion about the other. I just wanted to share my experience since I know a few Carolina Dogs.


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## msvette2u

> I'm not sure how reliable that source is - they seem to be doing a lot of fear-mongering, aka: "If it isn't banned, it's going to happen!" "Nobody knows what we'll get!"


OH yeah, I didn't think much of the article and didn't find a lot supporting the theory it could happen (chimp x human) but there were a few mixed reviews out there, surprisingly enough!


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## Syaoransbear

Is it just the danger of wolfdogs that makes people so against breeding and owning them? 'Cause I think I'd rather stumble upon a loose wolfdog in the neighborhood than a loose caucasian ovcharka.


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## von Bolen

Well, this is argueable, but you really never know what you could be running into, it's an individual kind of thing. But, something like a child screaming or running or many many other body language circumstances will determine how the animal reacts. But keep in mind, that predator/prey instinct is still there and can be triggered.

Whats makes people against the breeding is the unregulated attitude towards it. Officials cannot determine the content of wolf inside the animal. Who can tell without genetic testing if it is high percentage or not? Plus you have the puppy mills out there saying whatever they want about the animals without having to show a shred of proof.


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## mosul210

matthewm11 said:


> Carolina Dogs are dogs that went feral and were redomesticated. That isn't opinion. They are dogs- a very ancient lineage but dogs none the less. They aren't the direct result of breeding domestic dogs to wild wolves but are the descendents of the dogs that came with the first settlers to North America. I don't understand what they have at all to do with wolfdogs or why you are taking my experience and opinion of Carolina Dogs as an insult about wolfdogs. They are apples and oranges and one isnt really germaine to discussion about the other. I just wanted to share my experience since I know a few Carolina Dogs.


Please don't take this the wrong way because English may not be your first language (I have a few foreign friends). The response was in regards to someone saying there are no dogs in the wild - which obviously it looks like we both agree that there is. Also I was commenting on your post in which you stated "in my opinion" which is fine to have an opinion but also please be aware we all have opinions. In my personal opinion for example I find a feral dog much more dangerous than a wolfdog - wolfdogs by nature will shy away from human contact.


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## sitstay

msvette2u said:


> Wolves would not naturally breed with dogs, nor would coyotes.


That seems to be the opinion of the actual, real wolves here in Idaho. Every few months some hunter loses his hound(s) that are out hunting with GPS devices on the collars. It doesn't seem to matter if it is a pack of hounds hunting, or a single hound. They cross over into a wolf pack's territory and they get killed.

You would think that if interbreeding were so natural, there would be more love and less war when these domestic dogs intrude like that.
Sheilah


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## Syaoransbear

sit said:


> That seems to be the opinion of the actual, real wolves here in Idaho. Every few months some hunter loses his hound(s) that are out hunting with GPS devices on the collars. It doesn't seem to matter if it is a pack of hounds hunting, or a single hound. They cross over into a wolf pack's territory and they get killed.
> 
> You would think that if interbreeding were so natural, there would be more love and less war when these domestic dogs intrude like that.
> Sheilah


Maybe those dogs just weren't attractive enough !


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## mosul210

sit said:


> That seems to be the opinion of the actual, real wolves here in Idaho. Every few months some hunter loses his hound(s) that are out hunting with GPS devices on the collars. It doesn't seem to matter if it is a pack of hounds hunting, or a single hound. They cross over into a wolf pack's territory and they get killed.
> 
> You would think that if interbreeding were so natural, there would be more love and less war when these domestic dogs intrude like that.
> Sheilah


First of all thanks for adding to the conversation. I hear what you are saying but I think we are talking about different scenarios here. For example most animals will be protective of their young, food, mate, etc.. For example wolves will attack other intruding wolves just like bears, lions, birds, even my own domestic dog will defend his territory. What we are talking about here is during mating season whent the animals are in heat during laping and overlaping periods.


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## matthewm11

mosul210 said:


> Please don't take this the wrong way because English may not be your first language (I have a few foreign friends). The response was in regards to someone saying there are no dogs in the wild - which obviously it looks like we both agree that there is. Also I was commenting on your post in which you stated "in my opinion" which is fine to have an opinion but also please be aware we all have opinions. In my personal opinion for example I find a feral dog much more dangerous than a wolfdog - wolfdogs by nature will shy away from human contact.


Yes, I think we are in agreement with the facts. (interesting side note- I read somewhere that most grey wolves have some dog and even some coyote DNA, and that the color black in wolves comes from interbreeding between dogs and wolves) I really wasn't out to offend anyone or come across judgemental to wolfdog owners. Dog domestication is something I find very fascinating and I wanted to offer my opinion on the wolfdog debate from that point if view. I just finished a book called "half wild" (i think...dont have it in front of me) a memoir of a woman who had to put down her wolfdog. From what the breeder and other owners told this woman when she was looking into getting one, it seems some have incorrect information on the nature dogs and wolves they use to market wolfdogs. My point was only to challenge the notion that dogs are simply "tame wolves" My intention certainly wasnt to judge knowledgable, experienced owners. My problem is with the uninformed. There are even wolfdog websites with missleading information. The more informed people are the better for the dogs themselves.


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## matthewm11

*Oh and by the way*

Not too draw out the Carolina Dog debate any further than it needs to be, I just wanted to clarify I was talking about ones born and raised in a domestic setting. They are a recognized breed and in my experience are pretty mellow dogs. I have no doubt you are right that feral dogs are more dangerous than wolves, being less fearfull of people.


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## codmaster

I wonder if wolf/dog hybrids are sort of like Mules/Hinnies?

"The *Mule *is a cross between a donkey stallion (called a jack) and a horse mare. *Hinnies *are just the opposite - a stallion horse crossed to a donkey jennet."

A cross between two different species.


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## matthewm11

mosul210 said:


> First of all thanks for adding to the conversation. I hear what you are saying but I think we are talking about different scenarios here. For example most animals will be protective of their young, food, mate, etc.. For example wolves will attack other intruding wolves just like bears, lions, birds, even my own domestic dog will defend his territory. What we are talking about here is during mating season whent the animals are in heat during laping and overlaping periods.


I think you are correct, all hostilities cease when a wolf or dog is in season and enters the territory of sexually mature male wolves. Wolves are territorial but if they only allowed wolves to mate within packs they would get increasingly inbred. This is probably what allows dogs, red wolves and coyotes mate with wolves, because otherwise wolves wouldn't allow interlopers to compete for resources (not sure about the opposite scenario- if a male dog entered a wolf territory with females in heat. I think the male wolves would likely kill or chase off the dog) Otherwise we wouldnt even be having this debate because if wolves and dogs couldnt mate you wouldnt have many wolffogs running around!


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## matthewm11

codmaster said:


> I wonder if wolf/dog hybrids are sort of like Mules/Hinnies?
> 
> "The *Mule *is a cross between a donkey stallion (called a jack) and a horse mare. *Hinnies *are just the opposite - a stallion horse crossed to a donkey jennet."
> 
> A cross between two different species.


Mules are sterile, correct? Wolves and dogs I think are much more closely related, having split from each other within the last 100,000 yrs, which is a blink of the eye in the big picture. As was stated earlier, I think you could argue wolves and dogs are different species for reasons other than genetic similarity, but I don't deny that as far as genes are concerned, they are virtually identical. What you described is a true "hybrid", whereas dogs and wolves are, as of yet, considered to be of the same species.


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## von Bolen

matthewm11 said:


> I think you are correct, all hostilities cease when a wolf or dog is in season and enters the territory of sexually mature male wolves. Wolves are territorial but if they only allowed wolves to mate within packs they would get increasingly inbred. This is probably what allows dogs, red wolves and coyotes mate with wolves, because otherwise wolves wouldn't allow interlopers to compete for resources (not sure about the opposite scenario- if a male dog entered a wolf territory with females in heat. I think the male wolves would likely kill or chase off the dog) Otherwise we wouldnt even be having this debate because if wolves and dogs couldnt mate you wouldnt have many wolffogs running around!


The Alpha female will at times harrass all the other females so much that they actually don't go into estrus at all. The subordinant males either have to go lone wolf or suck it up and not breed, as the Alpha male will whoop some ass if they are caught mounting. BUT, there are occasions of multiple litters in a pack. Not all pack members are related. Thats the difference between wolves and dogs, wolves actually KNOW not to inbreed. It is a complete rarity to find wild wolves inbreeding. Not to say some males don't give in to lust, but the females always deny relations to mount.


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## Jessiewessie99

msvette2u said:


> You know, I kinda hate to point out the obvious but all you have is WIKI to look things up and that's a whole lot more unreliable than digging up scientific date and papers on google.
> 
> Draug, I looked up some data, and found this - I'm appalled but here it is -
> Exclusive: Half man, half chimp - should we beware the apeman's coming? - News - Scotsman.com
> 
> And there's a case for other species to be able to breed, as with Shoats, as the professor points out.


This brings Planet of the Apes to a whole new level!


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## Jessiewessie99

I also wouldn't be ready to call all mules sterile as I have read about some mules having offspring. I remember I read an article in a magazine a long time ago it was about a female mule that bred with a stallion and gave birth to a healthy baby.


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## matthewm11

von Bolen said:


> The Alpha female will at times harrass all the other females so much that they actually don't go into estrus at all. The subordinant males either have to go lone wolf or suck it up and not breed, as the Alpha male will whoop some ass if they are caught mounting. BUT, there are occasions of multiple litters in a pack. Not all pack members are related. Thats the difference between wolves and dogs, wolves actually KNOW not to inbreed. It is a complete rarity to find wild wolves inbreeding. Not to say some males don't give in to lust, but the females always deny relations to mount.


Thanks, that was informative. I thought I heard on a documentary that some North American packs are very inbred...although maybe that was fro
A documentary I watched about Red Wolves, which would make sense since there are so few of them. Speaking of Red Wolves and interbreeding, have you or anyone else heard the theory that Red Wolves are really grey wolf/coyote hybrids? I think it's a proven fact that Reds have a high % of grey wolf and coyote DNA but I think some researchers have gone so far as to suggest reds are simply hybrids. I know they jokingly collectively call dogs, grey wolves, red wolves and coyotes as "Canis Soupus" because all have interbred at some point with each other and share genes. So in a sense I guess all dogs and wolves are technically wolfdogs. 

I met a guy claiming his dog was a "coydog", a coyote dog (he said his was mixed with Chow) hybrid. These do exist although I've read that dogs and coyotes come in season at different times so it's a much more difficult mating than dogs and wolves.


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## matthewm11

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I also wouldn't be ready to call all mules sterile as I have read about some mules having offspring. I remember I read an article in a magazine a long time ago it was about a female mule that bred with a stallion and gave birth to a healthy baby.


I know very little about horses and livestock. That's interesting that it's possible horses and mules to mate and even occasionally produce fertile offspring. Its even more bizarre to think that humans and chimps might mate. Supposedly a scientist tried to create human-chimp hybrids in Russia back after the first World War and conspiracy theorists have claimed it's been successfull in secret government projects. Nothing good could come from scientists really succeeding at this, except maybe giving humans a better appreciation of animal welfare (since they would be part human people might think twice about how we were treat them and the moral implications of some of the cruel conditions we subject animals too. This would possibly permeate to all animals)


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## von Bolen

matthewm11 said:


> Thanks, that was informative. I thought I heard on a documentary that some North American packs are very inbred...although maybe that was fro
> A documentary I watched about Red Wolves, which would make sense since there are so few of them. Speaking of Red Wolves and interbreeding, have you or anyone else heard the theory that Red Wolves are really grey wolf/coyote hybrids? I think it's a proven fact that Reds have a high % of grey wolf and coyote DNA but I think some researchers have gone so far as to suggest reds are simply hybrids. I know they jokingly collectively call dogs, grey wolves, red wolves and coyotes as "Canis Soupus" because all have interbred at some point with each other and share genes. So in a sense I guess all dogs and wolves are technically wolfdogs.
> 
> I met a guy claiming his dog was a "coydog", a coyote dog (he said his was mixed with Chow) hybrid. These do exist although I've read that dogs and coyotes come in season at different times so it's a much more difficult mating than dogs and wolves.


Yes, Isle Royale wolves have inbreeding issues. But thats an island they've been stuck on for about a century, eventually this was going to be an issue. As far as Red Wolves, like i said, the 14 captured were pure red, and there are now around 150 released back into the wild. I HIGHLY doubt that they mixed with grey's.


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## sitstay

mosul210 said:


> What we are talking about here is during mating season whent the animals are in heat during laping and overlaping periods.


No, actually, being in season doesn't seem to make much difference. One hunter thought running a single hound while she was in season would make a difference and it didn't.

Disperser wolves, those leaving their pack and dispersing out, have been known to kill hounds as well. And you would think that if any animal was inclined to "pack up" with a domestic dog, it would be a solitary wolf.

It is very common here in Idaho.
Sheilah


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## Freestep

von Bolen said:


> The Alpha female will at times harrass all the other females so much that they actually don't go into estrus at all. The subordinant males either have to go lone wolf or suck it up and not breed, as the Alpha male will whoop some ass if they are caught mounting. BUT, there are occasions of multiple litters in a pack. Not all pack members are related. Thats the difference between wolves and dogs, wolves actually KNOW not to inbreed. It is a complete rarity to find wild wolves inbreeding. Not to say some males don't give in to lust, but the females always deny relations to mount.


I would not say that wolves "know" not to inbreed. It does happen. As a rule, it is the alpha female that prevents subordinate females from breeding, if she catches them, but if you even watch nature programs on TV you will see incidents of mating outside the alpha pair. Young subordinate females may wander from the pack and hook up with a lone male disperser from another pack before returning. Also, fathers will mate with daughters, mothers with sons, etc. Rules are broken and it does happen. It depends on a lot of factors; the size of the pack, how diligent the alpha pair is, etc.


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## matthewm11

von Bolen said:


> Yes, Isle Royale wolves have inbreeding issues. But thats an island they've been stuck on for about a century, eventually this was going to be an issue. As far as Red Wolves, like i said, the 14 captured were pure red, and there are now around 150 released back into the wild. I HIGHLY doubt that they mixed with grey's.



Refer to the wiki article on reds, I know it discusses the hybrid theory, as well as interbreeding between reds and grays, although this likely wasnt within the hundred years as reds are now pretty isolated and I don't think there arw greys in that part of NA anymore. The point I was making was that most of the large North American Canids are able to and have interbred. The color black seen in grey wolves may be from genes picked up from dogs. I think you can reference that theory in the wiki on canid hybrid or wolfdog. Don't remember exactly where I first saw it. 

Now that you mention the Isle Royale wolves I believe the pack I was thinking of was also on an Island (maybe off of Alaska?) or another geographically isolated pack.

I saw an article a few months back about Eygtian Jackals. DNA evidence suggests they are actually a grey wolf subspecies or a new species closely related to grey wolves. This is very interesting to me for two reasons. 1) it shows just how varied in both look and behavior different subspecies of grey wolves are and 2)These canids look and act a lot more like dogs than North American wolves. Could these be the ancestors of domestic dogs? Its generally been assumed that Indian or Arabian grey wolves were those domesticated but I wouldn't be surprised to see this theory explored more now that we know they are grey wolves or closely related to them.


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## matthewm11

*btw*

Regarding the reds, I believe when they captured those 14 that they didnt have the means to test genetics like we can now. I'm not suggesting that those wolves were the result of recent crossbreeding between greys and reds or greys and coyotes, but rather they could either be a unique species that over the thousands of years living in North American would occasionally mate with greys and coyotes or that they are the descendants of wolf/coyote hybrids.


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## von Bolen

I just have to laugh, I don't think 'checking wiki' would hold up in court. Hahaha! Wikipedia is hardly a source to be considered reputable.


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## codmaster

Aren't wolf/dog hybrids sort of like those folks today breeding "creator dogs" like the many crosses with a poodle of some type in them (ostensibly to create a non allergy producing animal - or so I have heard from some of the advocates of this type of breed cross).


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## vicky2200

I'm pretty sure it is illegal here. I don't think they should be purposefully bred. However, if a 'hybrid' litter was an accident, I would be against euthanizing them or terminating the pregnancy. I agree that not everyone can handle one of these dogs. I think I could handle a LOW content mix at this point in my life. I hope to be experienced enough later in life to be competent enough to handle a high content mix, even though I have no intention of having one. It would be great to be that knowledgeable.


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## matthewm11

von Bolen said:


> I just have to laugh, I don't think 'checking wiki' would hold up in court. Hahaha! Wikipedia is hardly a source to be considered reputable.


Are we trying to prove something in court? I thought we were just having a friendly conservation. The material I am referring to on wikipedia is sourced, not that I care whether you believe it not, I was just trying offer some food for thought. I admit wikipedia is not the best source, but it is better than making stuff up off the top of your head. Just about everything you have said, from wolfdogs being sterile to wolves not inbreeding has been incorrect, so maybe wikipedia would be start for you. What I dont get is that we are on the same side on the issue of wolfdogs, so I am trouble figuring out the reason for such a snarky and rude reply to what was simply a post that I thought some might find interesting.


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## matthewm11

codmaster said:


> Aren't wolf/dog hybrids sort of like those folks today breeding "creator dogs" like the many crosses with a poodle of some type in them (ostensibly to create a non allergy producing animal - or so I have heard from some of the advocates of this type of breed cross).


The Saarloos wolf-dog was created as a way to create distemper resistant working dogs. The Czech wolfdog was also intended to be a healthier, more stable working dog than a GSD In that sense- outcrossing a different breed (or in this case a different subspecies) to introduce specific traits (ie: 'hypoallergenic' hair) to make a stronger more versatile working dogs, they are similar to designer dogs. A russian breeder outcrossed Jackels into his dogs to create better bomb sniffing dogs. These are true 'hybrids' since they are diffefent species.

The big difference of course is that instead combining two domestic dogs wolfdog breeders are mating domestic animals with their wild counterparts and the results are less predictable. Even knowing the percentage of wolf blood and how many generations back they were bred its still hard to guess whether the animal will be more dog or wolf like temperment.


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## von Bolen

A: I wasn't implying anything serious, 'hold up in court' is a figure of speech.

B: While I may have been wrong on sterility, I don't believe I was proven wrong on inbreeding. Albeit it is a case-driven subject that is purely circumstantial, it is common knowledge and vastly agreed upon that wild wolves not experiencing abnormal stress/threat outside of typical life in their region do not inbreed. Maybe they don't 'know' not to, but it is an instinct that they do have, and it is not unique to just wolves. My sources come from innumerable books on wolf biology/ecology, but if I were to cite one reference that is a total broad-stroke overall, it is Of Wolves and Men by Berry Lopez. I and many others consider it to be a bible for the field.

C: My attitude is neither snarky nor malicious. But this is the internets. Kinda hard to read each others poker-faces.


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## Draugr

Wild wolves tend not to inbreed because the "packs" are family units - mother, father, offspring. At a certain age the offspring are driven away from the pack and go about to form their own packs with other wolves driven away from their families at the same time.

It's more by happenstance that inbreeding is rare, but I'm sure if you stuck brother/sister in a locked room while the female was in heat you'd wind up with a litter of puppies =/. As has already been said too, in larger packs, the other females tend not to go into heat anyway.

At least, that is the assumption I would make based on what I've read about wolf packs and pack behavior. I could be completely wrong, but that's my go at it.

Also:



von Bolen said:


> I just have to laugh, I don't think 'checking wiki' would hold up in court. Hahaha! Wikipedia is hardly a source to be considered reputable.


_Completely_ wrong.

Wikipedia is not a "scholarly" source - but neither is any published encyclopedia. Regardless, numerous independent reviews have found it to be just as reliable as any other encyclopedia like the Britannica, even most minor articles are put under the same level of scrutiny as the more active, larger, important articles. There's a pretty strict set of rules that keep Wiki just as reliable as any other encyclopedia - the stigma surrounding it is ridiculous. Information that is included without _true_ sources (peer-reviewed journal articles, for instance), is usually deleted within 24 hours or accompanied by large tags (the infamous citation needed, among others), and that, again, is regulated by a pretty strict set of rules.

Additionally, simply dismissing someone's argument based on "you got it from Wiki" is not only wrong because of the above, it's a logical fallacy. You're attacking the source of the argument, but you've said nothing about the argument itself. "Guilt by association" fallacy. Dismissing an argument because it's "from Wikipedia" is not a valid rebuttal.

There's nothing unreputable about Wikipedia - but even if you don't accept that, dismissing an argument based on the source is not logically correct.


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## matthewm11

von Bolen said:


> A: I wasn't implying anything serious, 'hold up in court' is a figure of speech.
> 
> B: While I may have been wrong on sterility, I don't believe I was proven wrong on inbreeding. Albeit it is a case-driven subject that is purely circumstantial, it is common knowledge and vastly agreed upon that wild wolves not experiencing abnormal stress/threat outside of typical life in their region do not inbreed. Maybe they don't 'know' not to, but it is an instinct that they do have, and it is not unique to just wolves. My sources come from innumerable books on wolf biology/ecology, but if I were to cite one reference that is a total broad-stroke overall, it is Of Wolves and Men by Berry Lopez. I and many others consider it to be a bible for the field.
> 
> C: My attitude is neither snarky nor malicious. But this is the internets. Kinda hard to read each others poker-faces.


Its true that its hard to pick up on subtle intent over the internet, but what peeved me is that all I was doing was acknowledging these theories and putting them out there to see what others thought. Rather than posting links I mentioned the wikipedia article which has a nice summary of said theories. For the purposes of an informal internet debate, there is nothing wrong with wiki (see daugr's post) 

As far as the inbreeding, I wasn't talking about the direct mating between siblings or parents/offspring, but rather the cumulative effects of mating in a population where there are not enough wolves to offer genetic diversity. In any particular geographic region you have only so many wolves to choose from during mating season, and over the years any given population will become increasingly more inbred. Is the term bottlenecking? I understand how the dynamics of the pack will discourage direct inbreeding but even when a wolf reaches maturity and sets out on its own, being a specialist adapted to a particular ecosystem means it can only go so far so and other potential mates he will meet will likely be close relatives.


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## matthewm11

Draugr said:


> Wild wolves tend not to inbreed because the "packs" are family units - mother, father, offspring. At a certain age the offspring are driven away from the pack and go about to form their own packs with other wolves driven away from their families at the same time.
> 
> It's more by happenstance that inbreeding is rare, but I'm sure if you stuck brother/sister in a locked room while the female was in heat you'd wind up with a litter of puppies =/. As has already been said too, in larger packs, the other females tend not to go into heat anyway.
> 
> At least, that is the assumption I would make based on what I've read about wolf packs and pack behavior. I could be completely wrong, but that's my go at it.
> 
> Also:
> 
> 
> _Completely_ wrong.
> 
> Wikipedia is not a "scholarly" source - but neither is any published encyclopedia. Regardless, numerous independent reviews have found it to be just as reliable as any other encyclopedia like the Britannica, even most minor
> articles are put under the same level of scrutiny as the more active, larger, important articles. There's a pretty strict set of rules that keep Wiki just as reliable as any other encyclopedia - the stigma surrounding it is ridiculous. Information that is included without _true_ sources (peer-reviewed journal articles, for instance), is usually deleted within 24 hours or accompanied by large tags (the infamous citation needed, among others), and that, again, is regulated by a pretty strict set of rules.
> 
> 
> Additionally, simply dismissing someone's argument based on "you got it from Wiki" is not only wrong because of the above, it's a logical fallacy. You're attacking the source of the argument, but you've said nothing about the argument itself. "Guilt by association" fallacy. Dismissing an argument
> because it's "from Wikipedia" is not a valid rebuttal.
> 
> There's nothing unreputable about Wikipedia - but even if you don't accept that, dismissing an argument based on the source is not logically correct.



Regarding inbreeding, I was referring to genetic bottlenecking, which is when you don't have a large enough population in a given geographic region to offer sufficient genetic diversity. Populations become more and more related without unrelated wolves migrating from other populations. With loss of habititat and loss of range individual populations become more isolated and more genetically similar. 

I agree re: wikipedia. Thanks.


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## von Bolen

Actually, you both make some valid points here.

Although I'm not one to take wiki completely at face value(because many articles are off in some way depending on editing capabilities), I wasn't dismissing the theories, just saying the source can be questionable.

As far as bottlenecking goes, yes, that can and has in some cases been a result. But disperser wolves and wolves in general have ranges that are so vast that unless circumstances due to abnormal human influences or otherwise is creating a lean on their habitat, its still a small chance. Again, extreme circumstance depending.

As far as the family pack thing, not all pups get driven off. It's more usual and likely the ones asserting dominance and the alpha's will not put up with that. If they drove off all the pups and had a pack mostly unrelated to eachother, there would be more chances of multiple breedings. Alot of times dispersing is a decision made by the individual. But once again, within factoring circumstances.


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## ColoradoVDGS

whew long posts! There is a Wolf rescue in Colorado that at one point sold hybrids every now and then and they were pretty easy to spot. Mals/Huskies don't look like wolves sorry- to me- their legs aren't long enough and the body/face is totally different. 
I think some breeding back to an earlier breed might help with some breed issues (thinking of the GSD in particular) but that's up to qualified specialists- not everyday breeders. 
Also I realize we got our beloved breed, and all breeds we have today, through gentleman (lay) enthusiasts but a little more consideration of science and genetics wouldn't hurt us.


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## jdh520

Figured I'd post this here instead of making a whole new "wolf" topic. I came across this on the internet in a hunting forum. This man was on his excavator in Northern Alberta and spotted this pack of 16 wolves, so he pulled out his iphone and got a pretty decent video. Beautiful animals!

9f4f7604.mp4 video by deanmc - Photobucket


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## ColoradoVDGS

They are gorgeous and they should stay wild. I think, maybe we have plenty of pets to choose from without screwing with what few wild animals we have left.


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## Freestep

Draugr said:


> Additionally, simply dismissing someone's argument based on "you got it from Wiki" is not only wrong because of the above, it's a logical fallacy. You're attacking the source of the argument, but you've said nothing about the argument itself. "Guilt by association" fallacy. Dismissing an argument because it's "from Wikipedia" is not a valid rebuttal.
> 
> There's nothing unreputable about Wikipedia - but even if you don't accept that, dismissing an argument based on the source is not logically correct.


I love it when people remember their Logic and Critical Thinking courses. 

Regarding Wikipedia, it does need to be taken with a grain of salt, because anyone can edit it at any time, and they do not have to cite sources. I myself have seen info on Wiki that I know to be false, so I'd never bet money on what it says, but it is a helpful tool and gives one a starting point for more research.


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## von Bolen

Freestep said:


> I love it when people remember their Logic and Critical Thinking courses.
> 
> Regarding Wikipedia, it does need to be taken with a grain of salt, because anyone can edit it at any time, and they do not have to cite sources. I myself have seen info on Wiki that I know to be false, so I'd never bet money on what it says, but it is a helpful tool and gives one a starting point for more research.


Exactly. A less coarse way of saying it than I.


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## martemchik

ColoradoVDGS said:


> whew long posts! There is a Wolf rescue in Colorado that at one point sold hybrids every now and then and they were pretty easy to spot. Mals/Huskies don't look like wolves sorry- to me- their legs aren't long enough and the body/face is totally different.
> I think some breeding back to an earlier breed might help with some breed issues (thinking of the GSD in particular) but that's up to qualified specialists- not everyday breeders.
> Also I realize we got our beloved breed, and all breeds we have today, through gentleman (lay) enthusiasts but a little more consideration of science and genetics wouldn't hurt us.


Bringing it back full circle...back when I was involved in the discussion 10 or 20 pages ago. What issues exactly would introducing a wolf into the GSD population fix? What issues are there currently with the breed that can't be worked out by breeding the right GSDs instead of needing another "breed" to fix them.


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## ColoradoVDGS

martemchik said:


> Bringing it back full circle...back when I was involved in the discussion 10 or 20 pages ago. What issues exactly would introducing a wolf into the GSD population fix? What issues are there currently with the breed that can't be worked out by breeding the right GSDs instead of needing another "breed" to fix them.


I don't know.  just acknowledging there could be a possibility there but I don't have the knowledge to say anything of consequence...


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## GSDolch

martemchik said:


> Bringing it back full circle...back when I was involved in the discussion 10 or 20 pages ago. What issues exactly would introducing a wolf into the GSD population fix? What issues are there currently with the breed *that can't be worked out by breeding the right GSDs *instead of needing another "breed" to fix them.


The GSD is one of my beloved breeds, but with the diversity of the breed now and the many different looks within the breed, there is no way people are going to agree with what is the "right GSD". Its just not going to happen.

With that said, in the case of the Saarloos and Czech wolf/dogs, its no longer a matter of "better" GSD as they are their own breeds now. Regardless of what one uses, if you start adding another breed into the mix, you get a completely different dog, not a better/worse (insert breed here)

At least that is how I look at it.


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## Draugr

Freestep said:


> I love it when people remember their Logic and Critical Thinking courses.
> 
> Regarding Wikipedia, it does need to be taken with a grain of salt, because anyone can edit it at any time, and they do not have to cite sources. I myself have seen info on Wiki that I know to be false, so I'd never bet money on what it says, but it is a helpful tool and gives one a starting point for more research.


Right, I fully acknowledge that. Heck not too long ago I mentioned the whole edit war going on about GSDs being bred out of wolves. I've seen that "information" pop on and off the GSD page multiple times.

But info without citations, as I've said, is either given such a tag, or deleted within a day. Outright vandalism is gone almost immediately. That isn't foolproof, of course, so any information that seems suspect - follow the linked source. It may wind up being complete BS. If that fails, browse through the discussion pages to see if anything turns up.

If you're using it for anything of consequence - well, you should know better than to cite _any_ encyclopedia for that, Wikipedia or otherwise. But for an internet debate? It's _more_ than adequate. And if you want to be extra sure, follow the links to find the original source of information.

The thing I was trying to point out, though, is that we probably wouldn't be having this conversation if someone had claimed to look it up in their home set of the Encyclopedia Britannica - and Wiki has been found to be, essentially, no more or less reliable than that, while covering a wider range of topics, and more specialized topics as well.

http://news.cnet.com/2100-1038_3-5997332.html (from '05)


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## martemchik

GSDolch said:


> The GSD is one of my beloved breeds, but with the diversity of the breed now and the many different looks within the breed, there is no way people are going to agree with what is the "right GSD". Its just not going to happen.


You're absolutely right, but I was making the same point you are, there is no reason to mix in wolf in order to fix an issue you think the breed has. As diverse as it is, you can probably find a GSD that will "fix" that issue for you.

As I see it, the risk of mixing in wolf doesn't outweigh the supposed benefit that can come from it. Like fixing HD or whatever it is you can come up with. You are also not going to get a better working dog so the temperamental issues and mental instability, in my opinion, isn't worth the physical benefits you may achieve with such a mix.


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## GSDolch

martemchik said:


> You're absolutely right, but I was making the same point you are, there is no reason to mix in wolf in order to fix an issue you think the breed has. As diverse as it is, you can probably find a GSD that will "fix" that issue for you.
> 
> As I see it, the risk of mixing in wolf doesn't outweigh the supposed benefit that can come from it. Like fixing HD or whatever it is you can come up with. You are also not going to get a better working dog so the temperamental issues and mental instability, in my opinion, isn't worth the physical benefits you may achieve with such a mix.



I guess that depends. In the case of the Saarloos and Czech that wasn't really the goal. They may have used the GSD and wanted the traits of the GSD, but that can be said for any breed of dog out there. One has to remember though that when it came to these breeds it wasn't just any joe smoe putting two dogs together and trying to sell it to any other joe smoe who wanted an ego boost.

IMO, the issue isn't if there is wolf or no wolf, its the breeding practices of people who just put a wolf and dog together and sell their pups. IMO looking at the Czech Wolfdog alone leads me to believe that it very well can be done. The benefits seem to very much be there. Doesn't mean that people should use it as an excuse to just throw a wolf and dog together.


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## von Bolen

On 'fixing' GSD's, the risk/benefit of wolf genes, etc, I'm indifferent and leave it to personal opinion.

ME personally, I believe when you start introducing wolf or any other genetics, then it is no longer a pure GSD. In regards to HD and other GSD ailments, I feel it's best and morale to just do our best in educating people on proper and healthy breeding and to try to cut off the bad genetics from being spread. In no way is it an uncomplicated and short process, but I feel that introducing a wild animals genes dilutes the breed, or any breed.

I also have stated on the wild instincts from wolves that remain in it's half domestic offspring. In my opinion, the risk FAR outweighs the benefit(if there is such benefit, but thats left up for debate). The ends should not justify the means.


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## von Bolen

GSDolch said:


> looking at the Czech Wolfdog alone leads me to believe that it very well can be done. The benefits seem to very much be there. Doesn't mean that people should use it as an excuse to just throw a wolf and dog together.


If that be the case, it should just be left to those in charge to do so. But in that, it also gives laboratories the notion to do what they want to animals if we give them full advantage and trust. All of it is very serious business.


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## martemchik

But I don't believe the Czech Wolfdog is superior to the GSD as a working dog, if it were, it would be being used instead of GSDs and Mals now. The wolf causes extra work for the handler that is unnecessary and the GSD is still preferred. If one assumes it is better at working than a GSD, it is clear that working people don't care for the extra work that comes with owning and training the breed.

But I'm on your side with the breeding practices, if done right there is a high probability that things will work out, I just don't get the "WHY" behind it.


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## von Bolen

martemchik said:


> I just don't get the "WHY" behind it.


Yup, right there. Morales and ethics. That's what it boils down to.


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## Freestep

martemchik said:


> As I see it, the risk of mixing in wolf doesn't outweigh the supposed benefit that can come from it. Like fixing HD or whatever it is you can come up with. You are also not going to get a better working dog so the temperamental issues and mental instability, in my opinion, isn't worth the physical benefits you may achieve with such a mix.


That's exactly my point. Most of the success of a working dog is TEMPERAMENT. Without that, you could have the healthiest animal in the world, but if it doesn't have the drive or biddability to work, it's not a very useful animal. We've all known dogs, for example, with mild/moderate dysplasia who have such drive, desire, and atheticism for the work that you'd never guess dysplasia by watching the dog move or work. Which is not to say that health and structural soundness isn't important, but without the heart and the desire to work and please their handler, you've simply got an athletic pet. Nothing wrong with that in and of itself, but using an animal known for its independence, wildness, and self-centered agenda like the wolf in a working dog program, seems to be fallacy. You'd have to do so much work in the breeding program to get rid of wolfish temperament and behavior while preserving the health and longevity of the wolf, you'd probably end up diluting both, and you may just as well have done the whole thing selecting proper GSD genetics and come up with a more stable, consistent line of working dogs in a shorter amount of time.

Of course, there are going to be those wolfdog breeders who pooh-pooh working ability by saying that "most dogs don't work anyway, they're just pets", but then you bring up that pesky problem about breeding FOR a pet market.


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## GSDolch

martemchik said:


> But I don't believe the Czech Wolfdog is superior to the GSD as a working dog, if it were, it would be being used instead of GSDs and Mals now. The wolf causes extra work for the handler that is unnecessary and the GSD is still preferred. If one assumes it is better at working than a GSD, it is clear that working people don't care for the extra work that comes with owning and training the breed.


This would simply be matters of opinion IMO. That's like asking, "which is better, a Dutch, Mal or GSD?"

In regards to GSDs and CzV, the CzV is a rare breed, with only like, 2 or 3 breeders in the USA. So of course the GSD is going to used more, most people don't even know what a CzV is. So, no, its not "clear" that people don't want the breed because of "extra work". Especially when it comes to the ratio of GSDs/CzVs. Personally, I have no problem with them staying a breed under the radar.

The CvZ already has been used in working, it was used in there military and that was the whole point of making the breed, was for military use. There is no more extra work with them than any other different breed that requires "more" than a GSD. (Huskies come to mind)


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## martemchik

Pet owners don't know, but if this dog was truly superior you don't think more militaries around the world would be using them? Also people that compete in Schutzhund on the world level would know if this was a better dog to compete with and would surely use it. I just did some quick research and it definitely is more of a handful during the adolescent years and forward, there is more to owning this dog than a GSD or even a husky. I'm not sure where you're getting your information, if its first hand then I'll have to agree with you, but at the moment, nothing I have seen shows that this dog is better than a GSD.

The Czech's tried to create a better working dog and failed, its the reason why they are back to Czech grown GSDs. It's why the Czech border patrol dog bloodline is so sought after by some people.

All this is just looking at the big picture, after 60 years of the breed being available, it is still not widely used.


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## von Bolen

GSDolch said:


> There is no more extra work with them than any other different breed that requires "more" than a GSD. (Huskies come to mind)


Of all you said, that's the only thing I feel might be debatable. Who knows what work went into raising these animals by breeders specializing in their behavior? I feel as well that they should remain under the radar to maintain it's progress and not risk dilution and abuse of it's creation.


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## GSDolch

martemchik said:


> Pet owners don't know, but if this dog was truly superior you don't think more militaries around the world would be using them? Also people that compete in Schutzhund on the world level would know if this was a better dog to compete with and would surely use it. I just did some quick research and it definitely is more of a handful during the adolescent years and forward, there is more to owning this dog than a GSD or even a husky. I'm not sure where you're getting your information, if its first hand then I'll have to agree with you, but at the moment, nothing I have seen shows that this dog is better than a GSD.
> 
> The Czech's tried to create a better working dog and failed, its the reason why they are back to Czech grown GSDs. It's why the Czech border patrol dog bloodline is so sought after by some people.
> 
> All this is just looking at the big picture, after 60 years of the breed being available, it is still not widely used.



I never said that they couldn't be a handful. Every breed comes with its pros and cons. Its not a dog (yes, it is a DOG) for everyone, but neither is a GSD. 

You seem to be hung up on what is "better", which is simply a matter of opinion. The dog is a very young breed, in the grand scheme of dogs that is a very short time from the beginning to now. So no, its not going to be widely used, but there are other breeds that much older that are still not widely used and are rare. So IMO that argument doesn't work. 

I would disagree with your opinion on "failed" also. These dogs were created and used in Czechoslovakia, which no longer exists. They weren't even a breed until 1982, so that would only be 30 years, instead of 60, that it has had to really gain popularity. (add in the political issues and its splitting up, who has time for dogs! lol) Again a moot point because some breeds much older still haven't gained popularity. There are over, what, 500 breeds of dogs in the world? You can't expect everyone to know them, including world wide dog sports people. (or,and its not just a "sports" thing, they are showed in conformation as well)

When you have only maybe a few hundred of one breed, vs thousands of another, of course one is going to be preferred over another. 


But the point is, a CzV is not a wolf dog in the sense that you are thinking about, but it is a recent breed of *dog *that was the result of breeding a wolf and a dog together and being successful, in that people can own it as it is, a *dog*. Everything else is more just a matter of opinion.


Sport & training - Wolfdog.org forum


You'll get some good information here. Keep in mind that this is not a fourm for the wolfdogs you are thinking of (the crosses) but for the CzV (or CzW).


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## martemchik

GSDolch said:


> I never said that they couldn't be a handful. Every breed comes with its pros and cons. Its not a dog (yes, it is a DOG) for everyone, but neither is a GSD.
> 
> You seem to be hung up on what is "better", which is simply a matter of opinion. The dog is a very young breed, in the grand scheme of dogs that is a very short time from the beginning to now. So no, its not going to be widely used, but there are other breeds that much older that are still not widely used and are rare. So IMO that argument doesn't work.
> 
> I would disagree with your opinion on "failed" also. These dogs were created and used in Czechoslovakia, which no longer exists. They weren't even a breed until 1982, so that would only be 30 years, instead of 60, that it has had to really gain popularity. (add in the political issues and its splitting up, who has time for dogs! lol) Again a moot point because some breeds much older still haven't gained popularity. There are over, what, 500 breeds of dogs in the world? You can't expect everyone to know them, including world wide dog sports people. (or,and its not just a "sports" thing, they are showed in conformation as well)


The breeding program started in 1965...just because it wasn't recognized as a breed doesn't make it not around. You lost me at Czechoslovakia not existing. Just because a name doesn't exist doesn't mean the people don't. I've been to the Czech Republic and Slovakia, they are very friendly neighbors, the political split was just that, politics, nothing to do with walls or dogs. This wasn't east/west germany where you literally had no contact with the other side and therefore the bloodlines were separated.

Your numbers argument makes no sense...if people realize this is a better working dog, they will breed more of them because they will be sought out. The military and sport people don't purchase what is available, they purchase things that they want and they look for the specialized breeders that have what they want.

The GSD is about 100 years old. There were working dogs before it, and they are no longer used because SOMETHING BETTER CAME ALONG. So sorry, I'm disproving your "older breed" argument as well. It has nothing to do with age, amount of dogs, if its truly a better dog for the job, it will be found. So why can't you expect sport people to know what the best working dog is? It's not very hard to find them if you're looking. If the dog gets brought to a trial and completely blows everyone away you don't think it will be looked for? I think you're really underestimating the knowledge that some people have and their want to be the best.

And better is not an opinion, better is proven out on the field. Higher scores, easier train-ability, more drive. These are all objective things. Its the reason why people are switching to Malanois now instead of GSDs...something better has been found. Are there still hardcore GSD people? Absolutely, but the ones that don't care about the breed, are doing it strictly for the world championship or for the win, will switch breeds. There are plenty of those people on this forum, they've stated they'll always have a GSD but they love their Malanois when it comes to work.


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## GSDolch

You've, really missed some of the points. It was 1955 when the program started, in '82 they became a breed and gained more popularity by doing so. You think the GSD was widely known when it first started? No, and to be honest it might have done the GSD good to not have got so well known. So I'm not all that upset that the CzV hasn't taken off in popularity. I also never said anything about Czechoslovakia other than the political split soooooo you lost me there.

You also seem to be asking a lot of people in what they should know. I'm sure there are sports dog people that do know about them, but you can't honestly believe that all of them know everything about every possible dog capable of working?

The point is, again, the CzV is a _*dog*_ that came from recent (the last 100yrs) wolf/dog breeding and is capable of being part of the family, shown in conformation, worked and participate in agility/ob/etc.

You seem to be hung up on what is "better" or "superior". That is not the case. Nor the point. Again that's like asking someone what is better, a GSD or a Mal, but the CzV doesn't have the numbers to back itself up like the GSD and Mal. Again, not a bad thing IMO.



> *And better is not an opinion*


Yes, yes it is. "Better" is still an opinion, especially if one is talking in general about breeds over all. Which is what I thought was being talked about in the beginning, but you seem to be hung up on certain things.

I get that you don't like wolfdogs, but you need to realize that regardless of what you think, the CzV are now dogs that have became successful from wolf/dog breeding. If they had not, then they would be nothing more than the typical wolf/dog crosses that have no lineage.


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## martemchik

I never said I didn't like them, I just said I don't see a benefit in making them. I don't see a benefit in having a CzV...it's clearly not a superior working dog. The GSD took off in popularity within 30 years of its creation because it showed how good of a working dog it can be, so the fact that the CzV hasn't, proves to me that it isn't better.

You inferred that because Czechoslovakia split up the dog never got a chance to prove itself.

Total numbers of dogs don't matter, I'm talking about exceptional examples of the breed that work...the top 5 GSDs in the world, the top 5 mals, the top 5 CzV, if those were better, there would be more people owning these dogs for work.

What my point in all of this is, is that the CzV is a perfect example of why wolves and dogs shouldn't be mixed. This was an amazingly planned out, controlled experiment that tested if they could make a better working dog. They failed, and 60 years of breeding has proved that. Now, I will not deny that this is a good breed and it is a good dog to own, but the point of creating it was to make a BETTER working dog. A country, with almost unlimited funds couldn't make a better dog by mixing in wolf, so I don't believe Joe Schmo can do so either by mixing them in his back yard. 

But I guess according to you, the CzV only proves that it's ok to try, because in the future it can be a great companion dog. Who cares about the offspring that don't work out too well, 60 years later the thing might become a breed and that makes everything alright...


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## GSDolch

martemchik said:


> I never said I didn't like them, I just said I don't see a benefit in making them. I don't see a benefit in having a CzV...it's clearly not a superior working dog. The GSD took off in popularity within 30 years of its creation because it showed how good of a working dog it can be, so the fact that the CzV hasn't, proves to me that it isn't better.


And look where the GSD is now. I personally see NO problem with the popularity not taking off in the CzV's. You can't determine something is/isn't superior/not superior if there are not enough specimens to look at. Again, personally, I see no problem with this. To me is like comparing GSDs to Pugs, I personally don't care for pugs and I personally don't see a need for them. You're still hung up on "better". Its not "better" its different, the same as GSD/Mals/Dobes/Pugs. Regardless of how it started out doesn't really matter to me. Many dogs started out for something and eventually changed. The GSD being one of them. The CzV isn't a "better" GSD because its _not_ a GSD



> You inferred that because Czechoslovakia split up the dog never got a chance to prove itself.


meh, who knows. It could have. Thats one of those "what if" questions I try to stay away from. Politics could very well have had a big part in it, it may not have though.



> Total numbers of dogs don't matter, I'm talking about exceptional examples of the breed that work...the top 5 GSDs in the world, the top 5 mals, the top 5 CzV, if those were better, there would be more people owning these dogs for work.


Total numbers very much do matter. If you have the top five GSDs in the world, the top five Mals and no CzV then you can't really compare them in with the GSDs/Mals because there is nothing there. This doesn't mean that they aren't being worked, just that there are not enough numbers to make a solid statistic.

Its like, if you take apples, and orange, and no bananas, but say that banana are bad compared to the apples and oranges. If you don't have something to compare to, then you can't compare.



> What my point in all of this is, is that the CzV is a perfect example of why wolves and dogs shouldn't be mixed. This was an amazingly planned out, controlled experiment that tested if they could make a better working dog. They failed, and 60 years of breeding has proved that. Now, I will not deny that this is a good breed and it is a good dog to own, but the point of creating it was to make a BETTER working dog. A country, with almost unlimited funds couldn't make a better dog by mixing in wolf, so I don't believe Joe Schmo can do so either by mixing them in his back yard.


Thats just it, it is, and always has been, a breed/dog on its own. It's not a "better" anything. I wouldn't say they failed, if they failed then IMO there would be no CzV and they wouldn't be any different than the first gen crosses. But they are very much different.



> But I guess according to you, the CzV only proves that it's ok to try, because in the future it can be a great companion dog. Who cares about the offspring that don't work out too well, 60 years later the thing might become a breed and that makes everything alright...



The difference between Joe Smoe and the people who made the CzV is that Joe Smoe has no goal in mind, puts two dogs together (or dog/wolf) pops out puppies and sells them, rinse/repeat with no care for a goal or anything. Using the CzV to just randomly breed crosses is no better than using two top GSDs to breed two random GSDs in the back yard. The CzV's aren't just companion dogs, people work and show them. So I would hardly say they were just thrown to the way side to be bred willy nilly or "just" for companion dogs.

American Breeder of Champion, Health and Temperament Tested Czechoslovakian Vlcaks

Check out this breeders dogs, IMO she disproves many of your theories of them not being able to be worked.


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## martemchik

I don't think there's anything wrong with breeding CzVs. I think we can both agree that those aren't really hybrids anymore. They do have some wolfier tendencies, but it doesn't sound like its anything worse than what a husky or a malamute could have.

I think breeding with a goal is great, I just don't think that that goal exists anymore for "new" hybrids. Or maybe the goal doesn't exist unless its for scientific or again...military purposes where these animals can be controlled. I just can't imagine anyone that would have to sell a majority of their pups to the public with a true working/improvement goal in mind. The big reason I see that these dogs are being bred is human ego.


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## matthewm11

Freestep said:


> That's exactly my point. Most of the success of a working dog is TEMPERAMENT. Without that, you could have the healthiest animal in the world, but if it doesn't have the drive or biddability to work, it's not a very useful animal. We've all known dogs, for example, with mild/moderate dysplasia who have such drive, desire, and atheticism for the work that you'd never guess dysplasia by watching the dog move or work. Which is not to say that health and structural soundness isn't important, but without the heart and the desire to work and please their handler, you've simply got an athletic pet. Nothing wrong with that in and of itself, but using an animal known for its independence, wildness, and self-centered agenda like the wolf in a working dog program, seems to be fallacy. You'd have to do so much work in the breeding program to get rid of wolfish temperament and behavior while preserving the health and longevity of the wolf, you'd probably end up diluting both, and you may just as well have done the whole thing selecting proper GSD genetics and come up with a more stable, consistent line of working dogs in a shorter amount of time.
> 
> Of course, there are going to be those wolfdog breeders who pooh-pooh working ability by saying that "most dogs don't work anyway, they're just pets", but then you bring up that pesky problem about breeding FOR a pet market.


It seems to me that many wolfdogs touted as great examples that they can be loyal, trainable, loving family pets are like that despite of the wolf genes, not because of them. Why take the risk at all? Don't cross your dogs with wolves and then pray like **** they don't act like wolves. I know there are responsible owners out there who appreciate the unique temperments of there animals, but there are also those expecting an animal that looks like a wolf but acts like a dog. I think this is similar with working dogs. Its possible to produce good working dogs that have wolf DNA, but you are also taking the risk that they will inherit too many temperment traits from its wolf ancestry and be of no working value.


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