# Help! My GSD bit my new pup.



## Mack&Georgia (Aug 24, 2012)

Their Temperment and Personality:
My boyfriend and I own two German Shepherds, a female (Georgia) 10 years old, and a male (Mack) 6 years old. Both are very obedient for the most part especially the female. She is very alert, protective, and obeys commands well. She is very regal and seems so intelligent. The male is more timid and skittish and sometimes has to be told several times to obey a command. He is goofy and clumsy. He is not nuetered and air bites or snaps often. When on walks the female will bark at other dogs aggressively but the male does not. At the dog park the male can socialize fine with supervision...he is very curious. The female seems to be too protective aggressive to socialize freely with other dogs. For the most part the two GSDs are only with us. We walk them together and sleep in the same room.

Deciding To Get A Puppy:
So I decided I wanted a dog of my own, a cute fluffy thing, since my boyfriend owns two GSDs and they are definitely HIS dogs. The only obey me if he isnt there. We thought about it for a long time, did research, and watched a ton of videos of GSD's with babies and puppies being calm, submissive, and careful with them. We thought it was a no brainer. So I got a small maltese male puppy. We planned out how we would introduce them...on leashes after a long walk and one at a time. 

GSD #1 Meets Puppy:
First we brought the female in to meet the puppy while puppy was still in a pen. The puppy barked but Georgia just curiously sniffed. We put Georgia in a down and opened the puppy pen and allowed them to meet. It was perfect. Georgia was not too interested and seemed to have no issues with the puppies presence.

GSD #2 Meets Puppy:
After the puppy and female seemed calm in the same space we brought the male GSD in the room with puppy back in the pen. He seemed very anxious and eager to play. We put him in a down still holding onto his leash and waited for him to relax. Then brought puppy out so they could smell each and greet each other. The moment the puppy was close enough the male GSD snapped at his rear end and bit his tail along with my hand as I reached to grab the puppy. It was very surprising. He just seemed curious or playful or one of his air snaps but was defininitely a bite. 

The Rest of the Night:
We left puppy in his pen and the dogs in a down the rest of the evening. The male dog constantly stared at the puppy and would look at puppy with one paw raised. Definitely fixating and looking like he wanted to eat him. We had to correct him serveral times. At bed time we all sleep in the same room and the male dog relentlessly placed himself in front of the puppy pen so he could see him. The puppy would wimper or bark. So we finally covered the puppy pen with a blanket and thats how we made it through the night.

Questions:
Is the male german shepherd being territorial? Is this fear based aggression? How can we integrate a new member into our pack? Will we ever be able to trust them together? Is it because they are both males? Any other advice?Please help!


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sounds prey drive. Given this is a small dog, I would think about sending the puppy back to the breeder.


----------



## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

I would not hold my breath that this is going to work out. It sounds like the male has decided that the maltese is a bunny and his prey drive has kicked in. With the instant fixation, it sounds like your male will attempt to kill the puppy if given the chance.

About all you can do is either return the puppy or keep a solid barrier between them and hope as the pup gets older the male figures out he's a dog and not a bunny.

This is a big problem in greyhounds and they have to be checked to see if they are small dog safe before letting them in a home with other small dogs.


----------



## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

Agree with the above, the puppy is definitely bringing out the prey drive in the male....be very very careful with him.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

In my experience, when a dog fixates like that, there is no "fixing" to it, especially when they snap without making a sound for warning. You can never trust them with the small animal.


----------



## FlyAway (Jul 17, 2012)

Me three. I would never leave the little guy out with the GSDs around. Even the female because it could just happen suddenly if the little guy gets too squeeky.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

How old is the puppy?


----------



## DinoBlue (Apr 11, 2007)

I would also not do the introduction of a new dog inside the house, which is the existing dogs territory.


----------



## Mack&Georgia (Aug 24, 2012)

The puppy is only 12 weeks. I think you are all right about the prey drive. Mack darts after birds and squirrels. Sounds like no hope for us . We wouldn't be happy keeping them seperated. Thanks everyone.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Jax08 said:


> In my experience, when a dog fixates like that, there is no "fixing" to it, especially when they snap without making a sound for warning. You can never trust them with the small animal.


I agree, I think it would be really difficult to keep your puppy safe. These dogs are 10 and 6, and if they've never been around small dogs or cats before you're starting from scratch as far as training goes.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

My 6 month old GSD girl tried to go after the chihuahua at first it required about a month of intense management but she is much better now. Every lunge got a swift correction and they are now able to be off leash together. That being said you need to be confident about your ability to establish boundaries. Also, when we arent home both dogs are crated. My previous GSD would also go after little dogs sometimes when I brought a new dog home it would always be a walk together before going into the home. Again all dogs crated when we arent home and all dogs eat seperately. That being said maybe its not worth the aggravation lol.


----------



## Mack&Georgia (Aug 24, 2012)

Before we even got the puppy we established that they would be in seperate pens while we were away and they would eat seperately so that is not an inconvenience. We have been discussing putting a muzzle on the male GSD for now and walking all three together as a pack daily. Don't get me wrong, finding the puppy a new home is an option for sure because I couldn't handle him getting hurt. Does anyone have any advice on some sort of job we can train our GSD to do to lower his prey drive? Can the GSD learn to accept the puppy as a dog and pack member or is more a matter of teaching the GSD to leave the puppy alone? If that is the case, should we be concerned about him being around babies?


----------



## kiya (May 3, 2010)

Mack&Georgia said:


> Before we even got the puppy we established that they would be in seperate pens while we were away and they would eat seperately so that is not an inconvenience. We have been discussing putting a muzzle on the male GSD for now and walking all three together as a pack daily. Don't get me wrong, finding the puppy a new home is an option for sure because I couldn't handle him getting hurt. Does anyone have any advice on some sort of job we can train our GSD to do to lower his prey drive? *Can the GSD learn to accept the puppy as a dog and pack member or is more a matter of teaching the GSD to leave the puppy alone?* If that is the case, should we be concerned about him being around babies?


Depends on the dog and how much patience everyone has. It took me almost 6 months to get my 8yr old female, Kiya, to accept my new kitten and she grew up with cats. And trust me she wanted to eat the kitty. You could find a trainer preferably one that knows GSD's and work with a trainer. It's really hard for people to judge your dogs temperment online.


----------



## angryrainbow (Jul 1, 2012)

Can someone tell me how this is 'prey drive'?
I'm honestly very curious as to why this is being used as an excuse for a behavioral problem.
Yes, a small dog running at a distance may kick a dog's prey drive up. But once it gets closer to this potential prey object.. if it smells like a dog and barks like a dog, then it is a dog. Dogs don't smell like rabbits, meow like cats, or make other critter noises.. 

Your dog has a behavior problem and probably would've reacted the same way if you were to bring home a Great Dane or Mastiff pup.
More exercise may or may not help. For now you need to manage. I'd also suggest not letting the pup bark at the dogs, it can annoy them just as fast as it can annoy you.

If you take the muzzle route, desensitize him to it properly.

Don't allow him to become fixated, as soon as you see him look at puppy, call him to you.. Or ask him to sit. Play with him for ignoring pup.

Goodluck.


----------



## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

A dog with an intense prey drive is not something you can fix. No matter how hard you train the dog, he will never be safe and the second you think you are safe, the dog will kill the puppy. This is not an excuse. It's a hardwired instinct in this dog.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Elaine said:


> A dog with an intense prey drive is not something you can fix. No matter how hard you train the dog, he will never be safe and the second you think you are safe, the dog will kill the puppy. This is not an excuse. It's a hardwired instinct in this dog.


Elaine explained it perfectly. It is not a behavioral issue. It's 100% instinct

Have you ever seen a dog that fixates like this? I have. I fostered a doberman that would kill any cat he came across. He would just snatch them up without a sound. I've evaluated dogs for rescue. Ones that bark don't bother me...ones that drop their heads, take a tense stance and fixate WILL kill their prey if they get the chance.


----------



## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

Yup, and that's how I cat test and small dog test for greyhounds. You know within seconds if the dog is safe or not.


----------



## angryrainbow (Jul 1, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> Elaine explained it perfectly. It is not a behavioral issue. It's 100% instinct
> 
> Have you ever seen a dog that fixates like this? I have. I fostered a doberman that would kill any cat he came across. He would just snatch them up without a sound. I've evaluated dogs for rescue. Ones that bark don't bother me...ones that drop their heads, take a tense stance and fixate WILL kill their prey if they get the chance.


Okay.. But.. Thats a cat. It moves like a cat, smells like a cat, meows like a cat.
This is obviously a dog, and I'm sure the dog knows this unless it can't smell or is deaf/blind, which I do not think is the case. The dog is not going to mistake the puppy for a rabbit.. At a distance, maybe. That is the deal with greyhounds, they see the rabbit from a distance and go in for the kill. But once close enough, I'm sure it would notice it was a dog (and a lot of retired greyhounds have problems with other dogs regardless).

I'm not saying it can be fixed. Is the dog in too high of a zone or something that it cannot recognize the puppy as a dog? I don't think in any of the instances that these two were introduced, the puppy was presented as a prey object.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

I think its a bit much to diagnose this as a case of intense prey drive from a thread. There are numerouse trainers / behaviorists and dog lovers that successfully keep large packs of dogs many of which are comprised of rescues that had various behavior issues. 
I dont like to say that any problems are unfixable, especially based on something written on a forum. I see a lot of that flying around here and I think it really detracts from people's willingness to tackle the varios issues they post about on here. "Your dog will never change, he / she will always be a liability etc etc". Not saying we shouldnt be realistic but at the same time keeping an open mind and having a can do attitude is half the battle.
There are a lot of people on here that have a lot of experience but there is very few that can say that they have successfully treated every k-9 behavior issue they ran across. Suffice to say YOU have not successfully fixed said issue (Im including myself here), not that it cannot be done.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

angryrainbow said:


> Okay.. But.. Thats a cat. It moves like a cat, smells like a cat, meows like a cat.
> This is obviously a dog, and I'm sure the dog knows this unless it can't smell or is deaf/blind, which I do not think is the case. The dog is not going to mistake the puppy for a rabbit.. At a distance, maybe. That is the deal with greyhounds, they see the rabbit from a distance and go in for the kill. But once close enough, I'm sure it would notice it was a dog (and a lot of retired greyhounds have problems with other dogs regardless).
> 
> I'm not saying it can be fixed. Is the dog in too high of a zone or something that it cannot recognize the puppy as a dog? I don't think in any of the instances that these two were introduced, the puppy was presented as a prey object.


Agreed IMO the pup should have been treated as a new pack member right off the bat. All the dogs including the pup go for a walk. The pup is a youngster and as such should have been treated by the owners as their personal young in the presence of the other dogs. Any dog interacting with the pup must approach in a calm manner and any unwelcome or to intense behavior, sniffing, pawing, staring etc should be met with a swift correction. Verbal, physical, strong eye contact plus follow through. Treat that pup as if you gave birth to him. The rest of the pack respects his space as if it were your space. The pup is not presented to the other dogs one by one he is integrated into the pack as a whole.

All that being said dogs can be cannibals especially with young, but it is not a welcome behaviour especially towards a new pack member. As such it should be eradicated never tolerated.


----------



## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

angryrainbow said:


> Okay.. But.. Thats a cat. It moves like a cat, smells like a cat, meows like a cat.
> This is obviously a dog, and I'm sure the dog knows this unless it can't smell or is deaf/blind, which I do not think is the case. The dog is not going to mistake the puppy for a rabbit.. At a distance, maybe. That is the deal with greyhounds, they see the rabbit from a distance and go in for the kill. But once close enough, I'm sure it would notice it was a dog (and a lot of retired greyhounds have problems with other dogs regardless).
> 
> I'm not saying it can be fixed. Is the dog in too high of a zone or something that it cannot recognize the puppy as a dog? I don't think in any of the instances that these two were introduced, the puppy was presented as a prey object.


You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Under no circumstances could one of my greyhounds ever be trusted around a small dog. The dog could be held in someones arms, never touch the ground or even move, and my dog would try and kill it. 

To many dogs, a small dog is prey, period, and there's nothing you can do about it. It's not as common in GSDs as in greyhounds, but it happens. A dog that instantly fixates on a small dog and you can't distract him, is not small dog safe. I'm not talking about interested in the small dog, but fixated.


----------



## angryrainbow (Jul 1, 2012)

Elaine said:


> You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Under no circumstances could one of my greyhounds ever be trusted around a small dog. The dog could be held in someones arms, never touch the ground or even move, and my dog would try and kill it.
> 
> To many dogs, a small dog is prey, period, and there's nothing you can do about it. It's not as common in GSDs as in greyhounds, but it happens. A dog that instantly fixates on a small dog and you can't distract him, is not small dog safe. I'm not talking about interested in the small dog, but fixated.


 Ok. So what you have told me is:
Your greyhounds cannot distinguish a Dog, from a puppy, from a cat, from a rabbit, from a mouse, from any other prey animal. So in your dog's mind, if it is small then it must be prey.. if it is prey then it must die. 
At what point at boundaries drawn? If they cant tell any of those small critters apart, then are babies on the list too? They're small as well and can crawl pretty darned fast.

IDK how this is considered prey drive. What makes something prey drive? From the words, I am lead to believe that it measures their level of drive after a prey. Prey, in nature, is hunted. Dog's don't go from Calm ---> Kill.. When you hold a tennis ball, their prey drive is at 0. What makes some dogs obsess over the ball is that when chasing the ball, they enter their 'prey drive' state, which is mentally pleasing as I'm sure it releases all sorts of happy hormones and adrenaline. But their obsession is not from prey drive, it is from previous reinforcement of the ball stimulating them in such a way. When the ball is thrown, the farther the dog travels after the ball, the more their 'drive' escalates. 

But in all of these scenarios stated..... There was no building up. I'm sure If I tried to introduce my GSD to the cats and they all took off running, well goddamn he'd take off after them and probably try to kill them too. But if they didnt run? Then there is no escalation to that state of mind.. there is curiosity. The only time it escalates is if there have been previous (failed) attempts at this same scenario that went bad and the dog is then conditioned to think of the cat as something bad that must be dealt with.


Lets get back to OPs first post.. 



> The male is more timid and skittish and sometimes has to be told several times to obey a command. He is goofy and clumsy. He is not nuetered and air bites or snaps often. When on walks the female will bark at other dogs aggressively but the male does not. At the dog park the male can socialize fine with supervision...he is very curious.


 So the male is unstable temperament-wise, does not listen (whether it be out of stubbornness or ignorance), is allowed to snap/air bite and is intact. He is housed with a female and the new puppy is a /_*male*_/. He is allowed to socialize WITH supervision. He is curious.
I understand there are some holes in here..

He is curious, but does he engage? Curious.. He checks them out, watches them, studies them.. But he is not trusted with other dogs unsupervised. 
He doesn't bark aggressively as the female does, but as you said.. the ones that bark don't really matter.. Its the silent ones..

THIS is why it's not prey drive. Obviously there is something else going on. Do I know what it is? No. But it sounds much more like a behavior issue than prey drive. He could be reacting out of something fear-based? Same sex aggression, he doesn't know how to correct or handle a puppy, under-socialized??

Honestly it just sounds like some rules need to be laid down and he needs to learn that his behavior is unacceptable. He sounds frustrated and confused, he was likely never taught how to be gentle to puppies and his habit of air snapping is his 'wild card'. He doesn't know how to react to the situation, and is being corrected for something he doesn't understand.. If you punched me everytime I looked at my sister, then wanted me to sleep in the same bed as her.. **** no! Not happening. 

Instead of correcting him, give him something else to do. OP stated they made the dogs lay down all evening, staring at the pen. Oh, but they arent allowed to stare at the pen even though its right in their view.. Everytime he starts to stare make him do a trick, break the habit/routine. Right now his default behavior it sounds like, is an air snap. He doesn't know what to do, he air snaps. Everytime he looks like hes going to air snap make him sit or lay down or something.. Then that will become his new default behavior. Reinforce the good and give out fair corrections that are warranted.. But you cannot place blame on the dog for staring at the pen, when the pup is barking, when you're making him lay down in the same room probably across from eachother..


----------



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Based on what you've written, I'd be very concerned. Your male and female seem to have figured it out for each other. But it doesn't sound as if there's any formal training in either one of them.

*I have a question for the other members:*
Is that 6 year old male too old to start some sort of professional training? If not, should she consider embracing that dog, and possibly becoming it's handler and leader? 

Some other notes of consideration:

Do you live with your BF? If not, then don't sweat it. Just keep the Maltese away, and enjoy your puppy in your own home. No need to be overly concerned about a maltese puppy having to romp with two mature German Shepherd dogs. Take your pup everywhere with you. It's much easier than two GSD's. If you BF is taking the GSD's to the dog park, leave the maltese at home.

OTOH, if you live with him, I wouldn't feel safe for your puppy.
There are 2 GSD's there. Both seem to need some leadership. I'm not sure about teaching a 10 year anything, but the 6 year old could be a good experience for you. I'll wait for others to chime in about training a 6 year old.
If would be awesome, if you were able to join some type of obedience club, and get that dog under full control. You may enjoy it, and not feel the need for something of your own.


----------



## minerva_deluthe (May 6, 2012)

I am surprised about this prey drive toward small dogs thing. I've never ever experienced this with a dog. Is it common? Because to me, they know they are dogs and though they may be dominant or aggressive, I've never seen a dog hunt a small dog as though it were a squirrel...


----------



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

minerva_deluthe said:


> I am surprised about this prey drive toward small dogs thing. I've never ever experienced this with a dog. Is it common? Because to me, they know they are dogs and though they may be dominant or aggressive, I've never seen a dog hunt a small dog as though it were a squirrel...


When my dog was about 12 weeks, I was walking in the park with her (on leash).
Out of nowhere, comes an adult GSD, and IMO went for the kill. He grabbed her by her throat, and started shaking her like a rag doll. My intervention allowed her to break free, the other dog pursued again. Again, grabbing and shaking her.
The dog that did this could very easily have thought she was a small prey. 

Another incident:
There were about 8 dogs in a local dog run. The owner decided to put her Yorkie with the larger dogs, instead of putting him in the smaller dog run.

Within minutes, the dog was killed. Grabbed by a Pitbull, and never let go.

So, in my opinion, a small dog could very easily be misinterpreted as the same little squirrel running through the woods.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

You have not given enough information for me to be sure that " prey" drive is the culprit.( and I introduce a new puppy to a pack every year for past seven years msuccessfully, furthermore I would venture my dogs have as much drive as yours). 
Pm me


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I would take cliff up on his suggestion of pm'ing him.


When reading the OP, I'm not sure I would have introduced them the way it was done.

When I intro a puppy, I am usually holding it (tho the pen/crate IS a good idea),,am outside, let one dog out at a time, and not allow any 'ground' contact ..They sniff, check em out, and I usually have my husband out there engaging the existing dogs in play (frisbee whatever), 

I have never had one "bead in" on anything I've brought into the house (nuther story for aussie/cat incident)..So I'm probably not the best person to say why he's doing it.

Mine have all been around small dogs (my sister has paps), and have never had a problem with the ones they are familiar with. 

I do know if I had one 'bead in' on a puppy IN the house, there would be some repurcussions(sp), as in , big time correction. 

For now, I wouldn't trust him at all, and I really couldn't say as to whether you should keep the new or not for safety's sake. 

Sometimes 3 is a crowd


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I would take Cliff up on his offer as well.

Cliff could you please answer Angryrainbow's post? I thought, when a dog just snapped without even a warning on a small animal that was prey drive. But after reading that post, so logically laid out, I'm not so sure that is the word for it.

I don't think prey drive has to involve "chasing" a running object. IME, the dog that was fostered, and the ones I tested, would stop, tense and fixate. Is that a component of prey? The doberman would just snap a cat up when he walked by. Never make a sound, the cat just sitting minding his own business. Is that prey instinct?


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

We have 4 Dobe breeders in our club.....having said that, Dobes are notorious for NOT having much prey drive. Too much non herding( Terrier among other blood), dogs in Dobe. This behavior does not seem to be prey driven, but not sure, but usually pups can be assimilated into the pack after control of initial introductions. The emphasis must be on the adult dogs and not the pup.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

So what would drive behavior such as this? Or are there to many factors involved to pinpoint it to one motivation?


----------



## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

angryrainbow said:


> Ok. So what you have told me is:
> Your greyhounds cannot distinguish a Dog, from a puppy, from a cat, from a rabbit, from a mouse, from any other prey animal. So in your dog's mind, if it is small then it must be prey.. if it is prey then it must die.
> At what point at boundaries drawn? If they cant tell any of those small critters apart, then are babies on the list too? They're small as well and can crawl pretty darned fast.
> 
> ...


Wow, you still don't get it and still go on about this. A dog with this type of prey drive is the same type of dog that will sit at the hampster cage all day and stare at the little rodents. They can tell the difference between dogs, cats, and babies. They will still fixate on whatever is their issue. A dog that is cat safe, may not be small dog safe, and vice versa. I had a cat, but my dog still wasn't small dog safe. This is why dogs are cat tested before going in a home with cats and greyhounds are small dog tested before going in a home with small dogs. 

The object of the fixation doesn't have to move for the dog to fixate on it, but the dog sure hopes it does because it wants to kill it.

When I used to cat test my fosters, I would put my cat in a small cat crate and bring in the foster. The cat isn't moving or making any noise, just sitting there. A non-cat safe dog would see the cat and immediately fixate on it. A cat-safe dog will look at it and more on. This doesn't mean the dog won't chase and kill a cat running through the yard, but the house cat is safe. This same test is used for small dogs.

I have known a lot of dogs that aren't baby and small child safe, but it's not the same thing. The dog doesn't fixate on them, but will chase and bite a flailing screaming child. And some dogs just don't like kids due to being tormented by them.

This is a much bigger problem in some breeds than others, but it's still there on an individual basis in all breeds.


----------



## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

Elaine said:


> You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Under no circumstances could one of my greyhounds ever be trusted around a small dog. The dog could be held in someones arms, never touch the ground or even move, and my dog would try and kill it.
> 
> To many dogs, a small dog is prey, period, and there's nothing you can do about it. It's not as common in GSDs as in greyhounds, but it happens. A dog that instantly fixates on a small dog and you can't distract him, is not small dog safe. I'm not talking about interested in the small dog, but fixated.




shes so right in some cases cats are even much more easy to train with high prey drive dogs, i think living with a small dog and my dog would be very hard but I can control mine to accept them in public because she listens so well, mine never fixates or does that with my cat. Cats also forward aggressive cats defend themselve a lot better than small dogs I find know how to deal with silly prey driven dogs better, also get to higher places, they work things out better. WHile dogs share the same spots in the house all the time and things get ugly real fast. I can bring young cats and kittens to live with my dog but i would not bring a small dog in to live with her.

Dogs know the small dog is a dog they just kick into some kidna drive if you have no experience with dogs with high drive and havent seen it then you have no idea. They dont care about the small dog they just go for it some kinda wierd obession.


----------



## angryrainbow (Jul 1, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> I would take Cliff up on his offer as well.
> 
> Cliff could you please answer Angryrainbow's post? I thought, when a dog just snapped without even a warning on a small animal that was prey drive. But after reading that post, so logically laid out, I'm not so sure that is the word for it.
> 
> I don't think prey drive has to involve "chasing" a running object. IME, the dog that was fostered, and the ones I tested, would stop, tense and fixate. Is that a component of prey? The doberman would just snap a cat up when he walked by. Never make a sound, the cat just sitting minding his own business. Is that prey instinct?


 Hi Jax.
Usually this is from past association with cats, the reason they fixate is cause they recognize the trigger. Dogs fixate on food too, doesn't mean they're aggressive with food. Have you watched animals hunt? Wolves, lions, coyotes, bobcats.. They all drop to their bellies and stalk. Once the prey runs, they give chase. This was a learned and reinforced behavior since they were young, as it means survival. At a point, if a dog were starving, I'm sure it would look like it had a VERY high prey drive.. So conditions of the animal, also play a part in prey drive. If it just had a nice plump meal, it's not going to waste the energy going after another meal.

The chase is what drives up the prey drive.. Dogs shouldn't be in a prey driven state all day everyday. Laying in the living room, prey drive 0. Outside dog sees birds / cats / rabbits, becomes more focused on them out of curiosity and (possible) past association, prey drive 5. Animal suddenly darts off, prey drive 15. Dog gives chase to prey.. 20 and escalating extremely fast. Some dogs are able to snap out of it, some aren't.. But that is more of a training issue and blaming it on prey drive isn't going to help the dog cope or fix these training issues.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

angryrainbow said:


> Hi Jax.
> Usually this is from past association with cats, the reason they fixate is cause they recognize the trigger.


That I don't agree with. I've seen some pretty young dogs fixate on cats in that same manner. The doberman lived inside with an old man and had no real past association with cats. My inlaws doberman would kill any cat that came near him with no bad past association with them. My opinion would be that it goes past the "association" and into some deeper instinct, even if that is not prey drive.


----------



## mebully21 (Nov 18, 2011)

my 2 are small prey driven. anything small and critterish they fixate on immediately. its whining and drooling and trying to kill any small critter they can. as far as puppies or small breed dogs, both of them can distinguish a dog/puppy from a critter, and do not have small dog prey drive per say. one dog hates other dogs whether big or small, and the other one likes other dogs whether big or small. the young dog i dont have to worry about with small breed dogs or pups. the older male cant have any contact with any other dog as it wont turn out nice.

if your one dog is eyeing and fixating on the little pup i would rehome the little pup. while intentions are good for room/rotating, there could be a mixup and someone could forget and the little pup could get hurt.


----------



## vom Eisenherz (Feb 13, 2012)

The male GSD has some issues. Nothing about his temperament, as described, makes me think his elevator goes all the way to the top. I have plenty of high drive dogs, a few over the top ones, and no issues with puppies, period. I also have 2 Chihuahuas. My only concern is that a Chi gets too uppity and gets a correction that it could be injured from, so if outside, I keep them separated from the young, undisciplined, or green dogs. They are safe (barring accidents which are always a concern w/4lb dogs) with my adults I have owned a long time. 

A dog looking to harm a puppy is no dog I'd keep around my house. Playing too rough? Ok, that can be fixed. But fixating as if it's a squirrel? No thank you. I won't write on here what you could try to do with that dog, because it takes a high level of skill to execute properly, but suffice to say that if you cannot make that male know beyond a shadow of a doubt that there will be extreme consequences if he touches that little dog, than the Maltese has to go. 

I'm sure my p.o.v. will be as appreciated as usual, but there's my $.02, fwiw.

I like Maltese. I almost got one a few months ago before I found a rescued, formerly stray Chi who needed a home. They are very sweet little dogs, for the most part. Purely out of curiosity, can you tell me where you bought your Maltese?


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

This is why I asked how old the Maltese was. I personally think a totally dog-aggressive dog is not stable. There are a variety of reactions to dogs, that I wouldn't necessarily throw in the towel over. 
A dog that is fine outside the home pack but will fight with same sex members of their pack are not necessarily dog aggressive. That is pack aggression, and can be managed. A dog that is reactive to other dogs due to lack of socialization can be managed and may be desensitized if work is done properly. But a dog that wants to _kill_ a puppy, I agree the elevator doesn't go clear to the top. 

I would not euthanize the dog. It is not the dog's fault it's prey drive is that extreme. It doesn't need to be executed. I would manage the dog or find it a home where it can be an only, and the owners are fully aware of its issue, and are trustworthy.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> my boyfriend owns two GSDs and they are definitely HIS dogs. The only obey me if he isnt there.
> 
> The male is more timid and skittish and sometimes has to be told several times to obey a command.
> 
> ...


This dog is a basket of problems, and the situation is a basket of problems, without adding another dog to the mix.

Either rehome the Maltese and forget having another dog (especially a small one) until you get this entire situation under control.
If the Maltese came from a good breeder, perhaps give it back. If a rescue, give it back to the rescue.
If craigslist or a puppy mill or a poor breeder, then neuter (or spay) and rehome it yourself. 
Good luck!


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I guess I am the only one who has heard an owner say their dog had big time prey....and the prey was marginable, or their dog was ready to kill this other dog....and the dog barely would bite butter, or that the dog was 145 lbs....and the dog was barely 100lbs, or they were ready to kill each other....and both dogs were soft as charmin. My point is there are so many behaviors that I could let develop that would make my dog difficult to control, but addressed properly and at right time ceases to ever be a problem again. I have seen some few dogs that would kill a pup.....usually issues accompany them....but I have seen far more dogs that having climbed to a certain rank in family pack....does the bleep what they want. Nothing wrong with the dog, but inept ownership. See it is the responsibility of the owner to maintain pack order and discipline, regardless of the temperament of the dog. Some you can raise without discipline and they are never a problem, others are and will challenge for pack position and freedom to do what they want. There is nothing wrong with either temperament, it's the responsibility of owner to become educated and address the dog. Many people want puppies exactly like the grown trained dogs they have seen somebody with, others are breeding these perfect pups so uncommitted owners can have a GS too. Phooey. 
Get somebody knowledgable to assess your dogs and your ownership and find out where the problem really is. JMO


----------



## vom Eisenherz (Feb 13, 2012)

No, Cliff...heard all that myself, which is why I said I wouldn't even go into what I might try w/that dog because I don't think there's a snowball's chance in **** that it would be properly executed and could make a bad situation even worse.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> .does the bleep what they want. Nothing wrong with the dog, but inept ownership.


I agree-- this isn't just a GSD problem though 

Which is why, when I see things like "this dog is too 'protective' to play with other dogs/let people in the house, blahblahblah" my red flags start popping up all over the place. 
The dog has way too much freedom and way too little leadership. 
This isn't the home for a brand new fluff-ball puppy, either.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

msvette2u said:


> I agree-- this isn't just a GSD problem though
> 
> Which is why, when I see things like "this dog is too 'protective' to play with other dogs/let people in the house, blahblahblah" my red flags start popping up all over the place.
> The dog has way too much freedom and way too little leadership.
> This isn't the home for a brand new fluff-ball puppy, either.


Exactly, the puppy is in a lot of danger, and this is the BFs dogs, not hers. If they were her dogs, then she could maybe commit to the dogs, and ensure that everything be done and they are managed properly. But they are not. So, the op tried to introduce a new puppy, that didn't work. Probably the best thing to do is to rehome the puppy now.

On the other hand, I have a real problem with putting a dog down for dog-aggression. Sorry. If they are people aggressive, we really have to sometimes make hard decisions. If they are in pain, if they have a chronic disease/condition, I think we pretty much have to go with our gut and try to do the right thing. But dog aggression, in my opinion should not be a reason to put an animal down. 

Dog aggression can be managed. Having kennels, crates, sanctions, leadership, muzzle in public if necessary, and training, we can manage a dog for those times when they might come into contact with one. And if they are our own dog, we can play musical crates/kennels, rather than putting them down.

Just because the elevator does not go all the way up, does not mean the dog cannot have a happy and good life.

It may mean that it doesn't make sense to bring in another dog or puppy.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I don't think dogs need to be put to sleep for dog-aggression.

The issue is management. If management fails, and the dog attacks, that's another entirely new issue.

At that point, often the law takes over and euthanasia becomes the only option.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Usually the law does not take over when it comes to putting down a dog for a dog-attack. That, while not unheard of, is pretty rare. And it won't happen if the dogs are both your dogs. 

I responded to your post, but the part about putting the dog down was in response to another person's post.

And, a real good relationship booster would be, "Honey, you need to have your dog put down."


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

If a dog attacks another dogs in it's home, of course the law does nothing (unless you want them to). 
But if a dog is loose and attacks another dog unprovoked and off it's own property, "often" the law does have something to say, yes.

I only say that because of my own experience- when a dog had killed (or badly injured), unprovoked and off it's property, another domesticated animal, it was a death sentence unless the owner purchased a permit to keep said dog.

One of my 1st calls was to a pit bull that had jumped a fence, killed a cat, then jumped back into it's own fence.
Dog was a sweetheart! Just loved people! But not so much kitties 
Which isn't an issue if you can contain the dog (management). 

Which is why proper management is the key.


----------



## vom Eisenherz (Feb 13, 2012)

Where is all this crap about killing the dog coming from?  Are they considering putting the GSD male down? I'm lost.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

vom Eisenherz said:


> Where is all this crap about killing the dog coming from?  Are they considering putting the GSD male down? I'm lost.


I was wondering the same thing. I don't see anywhere that anyone suggested putting the dog down?


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I must have missed that myself, I don't really see anywhere about putting the dog down for his aggression? guess I'm lost to


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

vom Eisenherz said:


> The male GSD has some issues. Nothing about his temperament, as described, makes me think his elevator goes all the way to the top. I have plenty of high drive dogs, a few over the top ones, and no issues with puppies, period. I also have 2 Chihuahuas. My only concern is that a Chi gets too uppity and gets a correction that it could be injured from, so if outside, I keep them separated from the young, undisciplined, or green dogs. They are safe (barring accidents which are always a concern w/4lb dogs) with my adults I have owned a long time.
> 
> *A dog looking to harm a puppy is no dog I'd keep around my house*. *Playing too rough? Ok, that can be fixed. But fixating as if it's a squirrel? No thank you. I won't write on here what you could try to do with that dog, because it takes a high level of skill to execute properly*, but suffice to say that if you cannot make that male know beyond a shadow of a doubt that there will be extreme consequences if he touches that little dog, than the Maltese has to go.
> 
> ...


Sorry, I suppose this could have been read differently. I was kind of weirded out by the word execute used to put an animal down, but as we have had someone solve a DA problem by euthanizing, I guess I well...

When I read this again just now, I realized that that is not what you were saying.

Sorry, my bad.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

smack yo-self sue))


----------



## vom Eisenherz (Feb 13, 2012)

LOL!! Execute, like execute a plan, execute a gymnastics move, etc. "Execute" as in "carry out," not shoot. LOL LOL

Whew!!!


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

The chase is what drives up the prey drive.. 

NOT always. squeaky toys which sound like distressed , injured small animals excites prey drive, as do crying babies 

this is a dog in prey - the little dog stands to be damaged physically and in his emotional development , living in a hostile environment where he has to be on guard all the time.

not the time to bring in a small pup.


----------



## glg46 (Mar 26, 2012)

After reading the whole thread I am shocked at how many people jumped to the conclusion it is a prey drive issue. If I ever had to go to trial I hope non of you are on my jury.
First, it sounds like the 2 GSD's don't respect the girlfriend( problem 1)
Second, we don't know what transpired prior to the bite. Did the dog approach the puppy and the owner think it was aggressive and overreact? Or was the dog just putting the puppy in his proper place in the pecking order of the pack and an inexperienced owner misread it?
There is a huge amount of information missing to make an intelligent evaluation


----------



## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

I agree. The situation, the dogs, and what actually happened is so unclear. I have 3 GSD's, a 7lb yorkie, and a 5lb chi and they all co-exist peacefully. Yes, the GSD prey drive has the tendency to kick in at times, but they have received enough verbal correction and guidance from me to understand what is acceptable and what is not. My chi frequently has a soaked head from the bigger dogs playing and mouthing on her. But they are gentle and have never hurt her and you will often find her snuggled up with one of them. The pup is still learning to decipher what play is too rough, so he is still closely supervised, but it only takes a sharp "ah!" for him to back off.

I think this situation really needs more time and observation to determine the depth of the situation.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

It's not the fact the dog is "in prey drive" or if it isn't in prey drive, or whatever.
The problem is, the dog isn't being called off, and has no desire to mind it's owner(s). 

The other dog has fear issues and etc.(which is being misinterpreted) and all this whole mess combined spells one dead puppy, if not now, then soon, if things can't get under control in that household. 

I mean - the dog bit the puppy. Regardless of what is the driving force behind the bite, the puppy is at very high risk for being killed and that's just going to be a big mess.
I think a bigger turn off than "honey you need to put your dog to sleep" (referring to selzer's earlier post) is "honey, my dog just killed your little fluff-mutt".


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

glg46......:thumbup:


----------



## longhairshepmom (Apr 7, 2003)

I agree with what glg46 said.

I see family dynamics that are not working well. The "pack" (boyfriend, girlfriend, 2gsd) are already dysfunctional. Just because they make it work, does not mean its right.

It was said that the GSD's don't listen to girlfriend, or only when boyfriend is not around. Why would you add a 3rd dog into that mix ? How does girlfriend think she can control and steer pack-dynamics if 2 of its members (the gsd's) don't even respect her ??? How will she correct them ? How will she protect the small puppy ?

In my humble opinion only I would quickly return or place the Maltese. It is at a high risk of getting killed. It takes only one small moment. 

Then I would work on the GSD's learning to respect and listen to ALL HUMANS in the pack, they need to mind the girlfriend just as much as the boyfriend. She needs to be able to control them and they need to respect her and listen to her, 100%. 

The male GSD needs a behaviorist, he sounds like a very unstable tempered dog. I don't think it has anything to do with "real preydrive". It has much more to do with a weak nerved dog that is acting out. And it only makes it worse that neither GSD respects the girlfriend or her "opinions". If it is going to be her trying to protect the pup or to work with them on these issues, its going to be a disaster.

Fix the pack you have. Control the pack you have. Have them respect and mind you. Fix their behavioral problems. 

Then MAYBE you have a chance to introduce another member, you will have the other dogs look to you for leadership and rules. It will still take a lot of work and commitment, it always does, but at least it might be possible then.

Please consider placing the Maltese elsewhere, for his sake...


----------



## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Personally....(whether agreed with or not)..my opinion is:
The actual problem stems from the TOTAL DYNAMICS OF THE HOUSE HOLD.
Dog one is in charge.....Dog two is in charge....Human one and two have no *authority*....and little dog three is the victim. Since there is obviously no real structure or authority, other than the dogs themselves...they are simply acting like dogs*.......bullies, predators and makers of rules**.....*The dogs are using the drives, instincts and behaviours that they were genetically born with & have been allowed to display & master....NO...third animal will benefit within this *home structure*....My simple advice would be.....get complete control over the first two dogs & the home dynamics...before another animal is ever added.


----------



## glg46 (Mar 26, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> "I mean - the dog bit the puppy. Regardless of what is the driving force behind the bite, the puppy is at very high risk for being killed and that's just going to be a big mess.
> ".


I'm not sure the dog "BIT" the puppy. I have a 6mos old pup and my other dogs are constantly correcting him. Sometimes they growl and nip at him telling him to get lost, we don't want to play with you right now. An inexperienced person could easily interpret those actions as aggression when in fact it is not.

One more thing, GSD's with intent to kill would rarely if ever attack the tail. The fact that he "allegedly" bit the tail AND the girlfriend's hand would lead me to believe she probably got scared and scooped the puppy up and that by itself could have triggered a reaction.

If I sound like I'm giving the GSD the benefit of the doubt, I am. I've seen too many good dogs end up in shelters because inexperienced owners never took the time to learn how to read them or handle them.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Nobody has once said "get rid of the Shepherd".


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Robin.....exactly!, glg46.....more good points!


----------



## jamcy1 (Sep 13, 2009)

I had a similar experience. Our male GSD was 18 months old when we brought home our female GSD. She was 7 weeks old. We had read about the proper way to introduce them and never thought we could have a problem since he was very socialized and we frequently had friends visiting us with their dogs without incidents. From the first moment he set eyes on her it was a nightmare. It was like he hated her on sight and just wanted to kill her. We had to keep them in separate rooms. Around a week later, while outside, walking, he was able to get to her and bit her in the ear, requiring several stitches. Luckily, he just grabbed her ear and we were able to separate him. We knew we had a very serious situation on our hands and called a behavior specialist. He came to the house and after seeing what was going on, he told us we had to give the puppy away, that there was nothing to be done and he could kill her if he got to her. He told us he was fixated with her. We were distraught and totally devastated as we had fallen in love with the puppy and loved the male very much. We were lucky in that we found another behavior specialist. One that actually knew what she was doing. She worked with us and finally, after around 6 weeks, and a lot of money, we were able to have them together, without restraints. They have been inseparable since then. As a matter of fact, she rules the house and harrass him terribly. Once in a while, he gets tired of the abuse and puts her in her place but they cannot live without each other. Maybe a behavior specialist can help you too.


----------



## Mack&Georgia (Aug 24, 2012)

vom Eisenherz said:


> Where is all this crap about killing the dog coming from?  Are they considering putting the GSD male down? I'm lost.


I have no idea...I was just trying to figure that out myself. The male GSD did not "attack" the puppy. We had him in a down and his leash was being held by my boyfriend. As soon as the puppy got close enough he bit. His bite looked like one of his air snaps. There was no strange growling and he did not try to stand up. He did not break the puppies skin, mostly just got fur stuck in his teeth. Putting him down would be absurd. Either we will manage the situation or rehome the puppy. 

Over the weekend both GSDs have been disciplined and excercised heavily...more like they used to be managed. My boyfriend and I live together and although the GSDs have rules we admitt there are areas we are too relaxed on because it has just been the four of us. The male GSD is learning to ignore the puppy for now.

Vom Eisenherz,
I realize you don't believe there is a snowballs chance in **** that we could sufficiently execute what you might try but all advice is welcome. My boyfriend used to rehabilitate pitts and the older female is 100% recall based on his ability to train. Although I trust his judgement in what we are doing now, I was just looking for some outside advice since it has been a while and so that i could hear from GSD owners specifically. My boyfriend basically just let the younger male GSD follow suit and learn from the female so he definitely has issues that need to be and are being worked on. We have already seen major improvements and are very committed to these dogs. 

Constructive criticism very welcome 

-Tiffany


----------

