# Long Haired Intact Male GSD in Connecticut



## KimJ

Hi all: don't even know where to begin. Very long, sad story, will try to make brief:

I am looking for a home for my 2-year old (will be 3 in Feb), intact male purebred long haired boy Silas. Know this first - he is ... aggressive/potentially aggressive. I am going to copy and paste below here from other emails I've sent to various people to try to make this easier to describe his basic issues.

Sent this April, 2019 to potential trainer:
"Basically he’s been wary of other dogs and people since he was a puppy. Same terrified of other dogs so I just stopped trying to socialize him with them. He was OK with people until he was being mouthy at the vet and they muzzled him. When the muzzle came off he lunged at the vet tech, this was around seven months old. I then took him to a trainer last summer who was a nightmare: alpha rolled him, dragged him around Through an agility course on a leash when Silas was clearly terrified, etc. Very dominating. On the third session, Silas took one look at him and ran up and bit him on the arm, no growl, no warning. I stopped the training sessions after that. When people come over, I keep him outside. He becomes very agitated and barks but there’s times where it does seem like he wants to play. It’s very hard to tell if he’ll bite someone and obviously I don’t want take the chance as I think he might when they turn their back. I’m obviously very anxious around him whenever we encounter people so certainly he’s picking up on that. He’s extremely sensitive in general, I can barely even brush him. But of course, he can be amazingly sweet with me." 

This trainer did come and evaluate him -- she said she could help him but that I would need to let her take him to her place for up to a month. She offered an EXTREMELY fair rate (under $3000) to do so, but sadly, I cannot afford it. She thought that perhaps he is not "fear aggressive" but seemed to react to *movement* as he was calm with her near (wisely, she did not attempt to touch him) but as soon as she moved, he reacted by lunging and barking. She did say that if he she (or another trainer) did not work with him, he probably should be euthanized.

On that last bit: I called his breeder earlier this year, described the situation. She was very kind as was I -- I'd been to the property and have full confidence his breeder did nothing wrong/are quality breeders. She was concerned he may hurt me someday (I'm female, 5.7, 117 pounds) or someone else and thinks he is unhappy/anxious, etc. She recommended putting him down. 

My veterinarian agreed to put him down, should it come to that. (He still has not been to vet although we did work with him to wear a muzzle around the house. I am going to attempt to take him to vet soon for at least Rabies shot in new few weeks -- will see how that goes.)

He was evaluated by a PhD in Animal Behavior when he was a year old and showing these behaviors, March 2018. Key snippets from her report:

"To be up front from the “get-go” I have to say, and will say many times in this report that I find Silas to be a serious liability. My recommendations begin with safe management + training respectful behavior towards you and you son. I’ve included some information about managing Silas with strangers but we really can’t put the cart before the horse. He needs to listen to you in no uncertain terms and because he’s a super smart, albeit highly anxious dog, training will benefit him for a variety of reasons. If you want to keep him in your home, avoid being injured or getting sued I’d jump on the training bandwagon ASAP. I don’t care a lot about what you train him to do. I supply some general recommendations in the handouts and Training section below but we’ve got to get his youthful cheeky behavior on the home front under control. "
"his young behavioral history speaks more to me about a genetic fearful tendency than a specific issue with other dogs UNLESS he had some particularly untoward negative experiences very early on. I think he is insecure by nature and likely always has been. I’m going to toss this instinct out here in the middle of all my thoughts and tell you it crosses my mind more than once that you and Silas are equally excitable, emotional soul mates but that may not make you the best pair for the long-term. I understand you are emotionally and financially invested in Silas but you are going to need to make some significant changes in your behavior and emotions in order to keep him safe with you…said out of kindness and not judgment. "
"You really need to seriously work on changing your relationship if you want to safely keep Silas in your home. He seems incapable of adjusting his emotional state towards his presumed “enemy” or “competitor”. I do believe Silas views you as more of a resource than a guardian. I am sorry to be so negative over and over again, but Silas is a behavioral caution. You can’t travel. Boarding and pet sitters are not an option. Entertaining guests is a liability. Basically Silas holds you hostage. I understand behavioral euthanasia is not an option for you. I get that, I truly do, BUT I really wish you would consider reviewing your contract and contacting the breeder. OK. I’ve had my say….sort of… and I’ll move forward with recommendations as to how you and Silas can move forward to safely cohabitate."

So that's a bit of what's going on in a wordy nutshell. He is also on Prozac, has been for about 7 months, don't see much of a change. He continues to be WAY undersocialized and I accept full responsibility for that: this has become a vicious circle as I am afraid to take him out for fear he'll become reactive (and would YOU want to see a 117-pound woman in public with a lunging GSD??? Probably not. I'd fear she couldn't control him, rightfully so.) Also, full disclaimer, due to personal situations, I've been out of state nearly every weekend for past 8 months during which my 20-year old is home with him. I fully accept that this doesn't help the situation and am ashamed. I have owned one other GSD for 9 years before -- so I'm not a COMPLETE newbie but not the most experienced either.

Bottom line: there MAY be hope for him in home with experienced GSD owners. Or, I may have to face facts and eventually euthanize. But this breaks my heart.

I'm not sure how this works from here but should anyone be interested, of course I will have to be sure he will be safe. I did post an ad on Craiglist for about 24 hours a few months with a similar post and was horrified: received messages like "Don't give him to someone named "Ann," she is my aunt and already talking about duct-taping his mouth and breeding him!" and "Be careful, people will use your dog to train for dog fights." IT WAS HORRIBLE.

But here, we are GSD folks and ... I don't know. Maybe there's a chance for my poor boy to have a happy life somewhere. 

Thank you.


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## CometDog

I would do a vet check and blood panel merely for my own peace of mind ..check thyroid, tick borne illnesses..and if it came back ok which I strongly suspect it would I would probably euthanize this dog. I normally would not say that based on a thread of text, but it sounds like you have already been steered in that direction by accredited trainers and behaviorists who are concerned about safety. That t me is a huge flag. And you have a son? That is deal break stuff for me.

You can't rehome him. You will never truly know what his future holds. He may hurt someone while under control of someone who "thinks" they can control him. They may hurt Silas. There are so many bad things that can happen with a dog like this. Unless I personally knew a well known K9 person who would take him on, I would not be offereing this dog out for rehoming.

I am so sorry. I have had to do this twice in my life, once due to mystery change in behavior (could have been medical or genetic). Spent a TON of money on vet tests and top notch trainers. The other dog was pure genetics. Very unstable dog that was always waiting for death to come knocking, from puppyhood, from day one, like what you are describing. He reacted to being startled by biting. Everyone who knew him (and I hang out with trainers) supported the decision. Shame but he needed to be released from his demons. Seclusion is no life for a dog, and like a previous poster said he was a dog that would keep an owner hostage should they choose management. 

Please stay FAR away from craigslist or FB listings. Honestly if the breeder said to euth..I mean..I know you said the breeder did nothing wrong, but I seriously hope the breeder seriously reconsiders this dog's pairing of lines that were used as not suitable for future breeding. 

Again. very sorry. Been where you are.


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## Jchrest

I would never ever ever put an ad on Craigslist or Facebook to rehome this dog. If you want an experiment, post again and state he has been altered (neutered) and see the change in responses you get. I still wouldn’t rehome him that way, but it’s interesting to see that responses to the ad will go wayyyyy down, because unscrupulous people would likely do a one off breeding and pass him along to another BYB, creating who knows how many pups that could have the same ending as yours. 

Are you actually wanting to rehome, or would you prefer a board and train and just can’t afford it? I’m getting both vibes from what I’ve read. 

For me personally, I wouldn’t euthanize, but I wouldn’t rehome either unless a full background check was run, and had an attorney draw up a contract releasing you from all liability after transfer of ownership. But I’ve spent 20 years taking in aggressive dogs that are on their way to euthanasia. My current senior was exactly like your boy, except I got her when she was 4 and they no longer wanted to deal with her aggression to get money from her pups. But it will be difficult, if not impossible to find someone willing to not only take on your dog, but all liability as well. 

I’ll be blunt, it seems like you probably handle him with kid gloves, and don’t like confrontation in any form. If I took any of my dogs to a trainer, and they pulled any macho alpha crap, I’d step in and immediately end the session, and tell them their services were no longer required. My vet also knows, and has a big neon note on the front of al my dogs files, that if a muzzle is necessary for any reason (beyond an emergency) that they are to notify me, and I will muzzle my dog. Not only do you need to be a confident handler, you need to be the spokesman for your dog as well. Both scenarios did nothing to help your dog. I’m really not trying to be rude, and I could be reading you all wrong, but when it comes to dogs, I tend to be more outspoken and direct. 

If you don’t mind answering, how much did the trainer want to take him for a month? If you don’t want to post, you can PM me.

If your only two options are to rehome or euthanize, I would opt for euthanasia if you weren’t confident in the person you are rehoming to. I would personally demand a full tour of their home and yard, ask for any prior training or trialing experience they had, with proof, and go all Sherlock Holmes on all their social media accounts to ensure they have never bred any animal before. Or have him altered before rehoming to prevent anyone from breeding him. 

The behavioralist was correct, the dog will likely need a lifetime of management. My senior is still one of those that requires it, but I have taken her from attacking me and shredding my arms the first two weeks, biting (or trying to bite) any dog or person that came near her, to her successfully living in peace with 4 children and 3 other dogs. She’s loyal, sweet, cuddly, and amazing, and I wouldn’t trade her for the world, but it took a lot of time and constant effort to get her there, and like I said, we still have a lifestyle of management with her. It is what it is genetic wise, so we work with what we have. She does go in public now, she’s walked daily with zero issues, and she still loved to hike with me even though her joints didn’t. She’s the most loyal dog I’ve owned. So there is hope, but it’s a long shot finding someone willing to take on that type of project. 

What part of CT are you in? Maybe, if you’re interested in keeping him, members here could give you excellent trainer information that may be the turning point you need.

Good luck on whichever decision you make, and please keep us updated.


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## Jax08

That looks like a west german showline. Have you contacted the breeder? That is really this dog's only option. You can not rehome a dog that has been designated a "serious liability". It's incredibly wrong on many levels and setting this dog up to live a life of **** in the wrong hands. 

And - if you have a contract then you are legally obligated to return this dog to the breeder per the contract.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Are you sure that person was an actual behaviorist? I've read behavior reports on dogs before and they didn't sound anything like that.

It does not sound like a dog you can keep or rehome responsibly. Can you give him back to the breeder and let them do as they see fit?


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## Thecowboysgirl

CometDog said:


> I would do a vet check and blood panel merely for my own peace of mind ..check thyroid, tick borne illnesses..and if it came back ok which I strongly suspect it would I would probably euthanize this dog. I normally would not say that based on a thread of text, but it sounds like you have already been steered in that direction by accredited trainers and behaviorists who are concerned about safety. That t me is a huge flag. And you have a son? That is deal break stuff for me.
> 
> You can't rehome him. You will never truly know what his future holds. He may hurt someone while under control of someone who "thinks" they can control him. They may hurt Silas. There are so many bad things that can happen with a dog like this. Unless I personally knew a well known K9 person who would take him on, I would not be offereing this dog out for rehoming.
> 
> I am so sorry. I have had to do this twice in my life, once due to mystery change in behavior (could have been medical or genetic). Spent a TON of money on vet tests and top notch trainers. The other dog was pure genetics. Very unstable dog that was always waiting for death to come knocking, from puppyhood, from day one, like what you are describing. He reacted to being startled by biting. Everyone who knew him (and I hang out with trainers) supported the decision. Shame but he needed to be released from his demons. Seclusion is no life for a dog, and like a previous poster said he was a dog that would keep an owner hostage should they choose management.
> 
> Please stay FAR away from craigslist or FB listings. Honestly if the breeder said to euth..I mean..I know you said the breeder did nothing wrong, but I seriously hope the breeder seriously reconsiders this dog's pairing of lines that were used as not suitable for future breeding.
> 
> Again. very sorry. Been where you are.


100% agree.

Frankly I think it is way more humane to this poor dog in the grand scheme of things to bring him home some hamburgers, fill em up with tranquilizers and let the last thing he knows be his person feeding him hamburgers


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## MineAreWorkingline

It is hard to assess these types of things online but usually, the problem lies with a variety of innate traits of the dog in the hands of an ineffective owner. The German Shepherd is not supposed to be the right dog for every family but the perfect dog for the right family. I would not put this dog down. I would enlist the breeder's help in assessment and rehoming or I would locate somebody who truly is experienced in the breed and that does not necessarily mean a trainer that has five German Shepherds but somebody experienced with herding breeds and aggression and have them help rehome this dog. The dog should not pay with its life because it is in the wrong home.


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## Jenny720

He bit a veterinarian and a trainer. The trainer seemed like be did not know what he was doing. Just because people are professional does not mean they are any good.
He can not come in the house because you are in fear he will go after friends and guests but you are not sure. First of all I would never quickly give someone advise to put their dog down unless there was some obvious wires crossed with the dog. The dog just seems he has some nerve issues and needs some structure and instruction but the biggest thing is handling. He was put on Prozac not sure how necessary or helpful that is.
I would also would not rehome the dog on Craigslist , facebook or who just wants a gsd that would be a disaster.
I do think the right home can be found through an experienced trainer that can also further evaluate the dog.


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## Sunsilver

Two questions: How serious are the bites? Did they require stitches/hospital treatment?
What are his lines? I am interested in knowing what lines produce dogs like this that are not stable, so as to avoid these combinations when breeding.

If you don't want to post this info publicly, please PM me.

I THINK this dog can be reformed, but it would require much, much more experience with dogs than you have. The problem is most people with that level of experience have dogs of their own, and unless they own a kennel, or have a large enough property that the dogs could be completely separated, would be afraid of him attacking and hurting their own dogs, so would be reluctant to take him on.

If he were mine, I'd get him neutered, to avoid having him fall into the wrong hands, and be used for breeding.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Sunsilver said:


> Two questions: How serious are the bites? Did they require stitches/hospital treatment?
> What are his lines? I am interested in knowing what lines produce dogs like this that are not stable, so as to avoid these combinations when breeding.
> 
> If you don't want to post this info publicly, please PM me.
> 
> I THINK this dog can be reformed, but it would require much, much more experience with dogs than you have. The problem is most people with that level of experience have dogs of their own, and unless they own a kennel, or have a large enough property that the dogs could be completely separated, would be afraid of him attacking and hurting their own dogs, so would be reluctant to take him on.
> 
> If he were mine, I'd get him neutered, to avoid having him fall into the wrong hands, and be used for breeding.


That's the bottom line....there pribably are prople out there who could turn him around but they don't want to deal with it, and there are WAY fewer of those people than there are dogs like this, so....


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## Thecowboysgirl

MineAreWorkingline said:


> It is hard to assess these types of things online but usually, the problem lies with a variety of innate traits of the dog in the hands of an ineffective owner. The German Shepherd is not supposed to be the right dog for every family but the perfect dog for the right family. I would not put this dog down. I would enlist the breeder's help in assessment and rehoming or I would locate somebody who truly is experienced in the breed and that does not necessarily mean a trainer that has five German Shepherds but somebody experienced with herding breeds and aggression and have them help rehome this dog. The dog should not pay with its life because it is in the wrong home.


That should be the breeder's job to help facilitate that but unless I am mistaken the breeder recommended to euth the dog


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## Saco

If he is good with family, and not randomly aggressive, he can be rehomed, but it will take work. He is very handsome. Behaviorists, in my opinion are useless for the most part. If my dog was treated like that by a trainer, he'd bite him, too. It's not uncommon for a GSD to react to poor and unfair handling by a stranger with aggression. If the breeder can help with rehoming, I'd go that route. 

It sounds to me like the OP has been getting bad advice from the people she's sought for help. Does anyone have a trainer recommendation in her area, so she can at least get the dog evaluated competently? 

And to the OP, plenty of trainers will opt for euthanasia because they don't know what they are doing and it is easier for them. Don't go that route yet, at least give the dog a chance and get another eval.


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## Nigel

KimJ said:


> Hi all: don't even know where to begin. Very long, sad story, will try to make brief:
> 
> I am looking for a home for my 2-year old (will be 3 in Feb), intact male purebred long haired boy Silas. Know this first - he is ... aggressive/potentially aggressive. I am going to copy and paste below here from other emails I've sent to various people to try to make this easier to describe his basic issues.
> 
> Sent this April, 2019 to potential trainer:
> "Basically he’s been wary of other dogs and people since he was a puppy. Same terrified of other dogs so I just stopped trying to socialize him with them. He was OK with people until he was being mouthy at the vet and they muzzled him. When the muzzle came off he lunged at the vet tech, this was around seven months old. I then took him to a trainer last summer who was a nightmare: alpha rolled him, dragged him around Through an agility course on a leash when Silas was clearly terrified, etc. Very dominating. On the third session, Silas took one look at him and ran up and bit him on the arm, no growl, no warning. I stopped the training sessions after that. When people come over, I keep him outside. He becomes very agitated and barks but there’s times where it does seem like he wants to play. It’s very hard to tell if he’ll bite someone and obviously I don’t want take the chance as I think he might when they turn their back. I’m obviously very anxious around him whenever we encounter people so certainly he’s picking up on that. He’s extremely sensitive in general, I can barely even brush him. But of course, he can be amazingly sweet with me."
> 
> This trainer did come and evaluate him -- she said she could help him but that I would need to let her take him to her place for up to a month. She offered an EXTREMELY fair rate (under $3000) to do so, but sadly, I cannot afford it. She thought that perhaps he is not "fear aggressive" but seemed to react to *movement* as he was calm with her near (wisely, she did not attempt to touch him) but as soon as she moved, he reacted by lunging and barking. She did say that if he she (or another trainer) did not work with him, he probably should be euthanized.
> 
> On that last bit: I called his breeder earlier this year, described the situation. She was very kind as was I -- I'd been to the property and have full confidence his breeder did nothing wrong/are quality breeders. She was concerned he may hurt me someday (I'm female, 5.7, 117 pounds) or someone else and thinks he is unhappy/anxious, etc. She recommended putting him down.
> 
> My veterinarian agreed to put him down, should it come to that. (He still has not been to vet although we did work with him to wear a muzzle around the house. I am going to attempt to take him to vet soon for at least Rabies shot in new few weeks -- will see how that goes.)
> 
> He was evaluated by a PhD in Animal Behavior when he was a year old and showing these behaviors, March 2018. Key snippets from her report:
> 
> "To be up front from the “get-go” I have to say, and will say many times in this report that I find Silas to be a serious liability. My recommendations begin with safe management + training respectful behavior towards you and you son. I’ve included some information about managing Silas with strangers but we really can’t put the cart before the horse. He needs to listen to you in no uncertain terms and because he’s a super smart, albeit highly anxious dog, training will benefit him for a variety of reasons. If you want to keep him in your home, avoid being injured or getting sued I’d jump on the training bandwagon ASAP. I don’t care a lot about what you train him to do. I supply some general recommendations in the handouts and Training section below but we’ve got to get his youthful cheeky behavior on the home front under control. "
> "his young behavioral history speaks more to me about a genetic fearful tendency than a specific issue with other dogs UNLESS he had some particularly untoward negative experiences very early on. I think he is insecure by nature and likely always has been.* I’m going to toss this instinct out here in the middle of all my thoughts and tell you it crosses my mind more than once that you and Silas are equally excitable, emotional soul mates but that may not make you the best pair for the long-term. I understand you are emotionally and financially invested in Silas but you are going to need to make some significant changes in your behavior and emotions in order to keep him safe with you…said out of kindness and not judgment*. "
> "You really need to seriously work on changing your relationship if you want to safely keep Silas in your home. He seems incapable of adjusting his emotional state towards his presumed “enemy” or “competitor”. I do believe Silas views you as more of a resource than a guardian. I am sorry to be so negative over and over again, but Silas is a behavioral caution. You can’t travel. Boarding and pet sitters are not an option. Entertaining guests is a liability. Basically Silas holds you hostage. I understand behavioral euthanasia is not an option for you. I get that, I truly do, BUT I really wish you would consider reviewing your contract and contacting the breeder. OK. I’ve had my say….sort of… and I’ll move forward with recommendations as to how you and Silas can move forward to safely cohabitate."
> 
> So that's a bit of what's going on in a wordy nutshell. He is also on Prozac, has been for about 7 months, don't see much of a change. He continues to be WAY undersocialized and I accept full responsibility for that: this has become a vicious circle as I am afraid to take him out for fear he'll become reactive (and would YOU want to see a 117-pound woman in public with a lunging GSD??? Probably not. I'd fear she couldn't control him, rightfully so.) Also, full disclaimer, due to personal situations, I've been out of state nearly every weekend for past 8 months during which my 20-year old is home with him. I fully accept that this doesn't help the situation and am ashamed. I have owned one other GSD for 9 years before -- so I'm not a COMPLETE newbie but not the most experienced either.
> 
> Bottom line: there MAY be hope for him in home with experienced GSD owners. Or, I may have to face facts and eventually euthanize. But this breaks my heart.
> 
> I'm not sure how this works from here but should anyone be interested, of course I will have to be sure he will be safe. I did post an ad on Craiglist for about 24 hours a few months with a similar post and was horrified: received messages like "Don't give him to someone named "Ann," she is my aunt and already talking about duct-taping his mouth and breeding him!" and "Be careful, people will use your dog to train for dog fights." IT WAS HORRIBLE.
> 
> But here, we are GSD folks and ... I don't know. Maybe there's a chance for my poor boy to have a happy life somewhere.
> 
> Thank you.


When I read the bolded it makes me wonder if Silas possibly has average nerves, but lives on edge due to his handling and home environment? If the trainers assessment of you is accurate your emotions/excitability could be fueling some of what you see. I know cost is prohibitive at this point, however placing him into a qualified board/train may be the best option to get a fair assessment of Silas before deciding your next step.


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## cvamoca

He's beautiful. But a beautiful potential killer is not cool. 
I was always able to handle strong dogs at a light weight because I handle horses, but the older and larger I get the more strength I have because I'm still reasonably active. That's not the issue. 
The issue is you have a beautiful aggressive, dangerous dog. 

He feeds off your emotions and that causes aggressive behaviour. Some lines of dogs are not great. It may be something both of you are doing

The people in this thread will help far better than I could- just be careful, and best of luck. Don't give him away, it's not safe. Get some professional help, I implore you. 

There are worse things than euthanasia, trust me on that.. If you cannot get a good safe reliable trainer...I'm really sorry...


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## cvamoca

I'm going to add that the fact Prozac isn't working...leads me down the bad genetics path, or there is another neurological possibility, as well as behavioural possibly. I really didn't read all the replies so I will now. Best of luck.


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## CometDog

Jax08 said:


> That looks like a west german showline. Have you contacted the breeder? That is really this dog's only option. You can not rehome a dog that has been designated a "serious liability". It's incredibly wrong on many levels and setting this dog up to live a life of **** in the wrong hands.
> 
> And - if you have a contract then you are legally obligated to return this dog to the breeder per the contract.


The breeder told OP to euthanize the dog. Which, I don't know if that is an answer a reputable breeder would give? I would expect a reputable breeder to ask for the dog back and then make that evaluation and determination after that. It sounds like breeder is not offering to take it back.


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## Jax08

OP - you are in CT. There are several really good IPO trainers around. You could throw a stone and hit one. CT, MA, NH. Many people on the east coast. I was just at a show this weekend with 30 trial entries and 70 how entries. So my question is - have you contacted a trainer that actually knows and understand GSDs? And what is his pedigree?


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## wolfmonte

Not sure about this info but sometimes neutering a dog makes it more manageable to some people..


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## LuvShepherds

I had a Ridgeback foster that was aggressive toward young men. A young male trainer told me the dog should be put down. Two weeks later, the rescue had a list of people wanting to adopt the dog. Get a better evaluation before making a decision you can’t take back.


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## Jchrest

LuvShepherds said:


> I had a Ridgeback foster that was aggressive toward young men. A young male trainer told me the dog should be put down. Two weeks later, the rescue had a list of people wanting to adopt the dog. Get a better evaluation before making a decision you can’t take back.


Very much of this ^^^

I had vets and trainers tell me to put Lyka down, that she would never settle or have a good quality of life because she was too anxious and aggressive. I hit the trainer jackpot when I met my trainer Jake. He was a godsend for both of us. It wasn’t my first time working with an aggressive dog, or the first time I’ve owned a GSD, but it was the first time I had a GSD with these issues. I’m never afraid to say “I don’t know what I’m doing here, and need some help” when it comes to saving a dog. She lost all anxiousness, and all fear aggression with the exception of still being territorial in her yard, but that’s what I want anyway, people shouldn’t be coming into my backyard without permission, and if the multiple signs don’t clue them in that there is a bite dog out back, Lyka will get the point across to them. She has access to the doggy door, we don’t leave her out back, I just realized that’s what it sounded like. 

Get a second opinion and reach out to some people that know working dogs, specially herding dogs, and even better, working herding GSD’s in particular!


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## Jchrest

Double post, sorry!


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## LuvShepherds

wolfmonte said:


> Not sure about this info but sometimes neutering a dog makes it more manageable to some people..


Before about six months, but that isn’t recommended. Afterwards, neutering can make an aggressive dog even more aggressive.


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## KimJ

Thank you everyone for weighing in. I am reading through what you all have posted and will respond to questions when I can, a bit under the weather currently. Briefly, however:

1. No worries about me putting him on Craiglist, etc. And IF someone here did present who was interested in giving him a home, of course I'd investigate the heck out of them. 
2. Thank you for suggesting trainers, included those who messaged me privately. The problem is frankly, at the moment, I cannot afford it. I'm a homeowner on one average income and barely paying the bills, having recently been hit with a slew of unanticipated costs. I know that sounds like an excuse but it's true, embarrassing as it is to admit.


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## CometDog

Life happens. Yes we should all set out when getting a dog with a good solid time and financial plan. A dog is a 10 plus year commitment and sometimes life changes drastically year by year. People should not feel they have to apologize and explain details of their current financial statement. Personally I would only judge someone who was having a huge problem who said they can't afford a private trainer right now if they were eating out everyday, going on nice vacations, buying designer clothes. Even then it isn't my position to judge but I would lol "you mean you won't afford, not can't". 

Anyway, if money is tight that is very understandable. Can you get to an IGP club? Most are between 100 to 150 per month. And you meet every weekend. At the absolute very least you may get names of trusted breed evaluators or even just a breed educated opinion of someone who meets your dog. I know when I had to make this decision, I needed to be absolutely sure.

I don't mean to be a downer, but if you used actual behaviorists and trainers as you said, even if they aren't GSD specific- when they make errors it tends to be in the positive direction. The we can fix this, it's all in how you raise and train them direction. It's rare for any established trainer to knee jerk the other way to euthanizing. Their livelihood hinges on success stories. If they are actually in business, and advertise etc, they are not going to be quick to go the direction they went with you. It just would not be conducive from a business model to take that direction lightly. They must have really seen something. Just food for thought.


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## Saco

I am just going to throw this into the mix, knowing that cost is a concern. Consider building an escape proof dog enclosure. With a fenced roof, cement floor, weatherproof dog kennel. Silas can stay there if you have an emergency need to travel, when guests are over, when you go to work, etc. That reduces a lot of liability. If your son is handy or you have some friends who are, they can come over and help build and materials aren't all that pricey. Look up plans on line. You can even make it so someone could feed/water, and hose out the pen if you were in a real bind and were hospitalized or unable to care for him for a bit. 

I'm not entirely clear on your relationship with him. Is he aggressive toward you and your son?

I read over your initial post again, and I don't see any major red flags telling me this dog needs to be euthanized. 

Consider working with him- just you and him- in tracking and nose work. I guarantee this will help your bond, and he'll most likely love it. Lots and lots of resources for starting out online. If you really like it, you can title in nosework. 

If you are willing to travel, I recommend a consult with this trainer. I know and like him. He owns and trains GSD/malis and he is a solid guy who will give you an honest assessment. An eval isn't going to cost you a whole lot of money. And, hey, it is peak foliage in the north country. King K9 Academy Training & Rehabilitation - King K9 Academy


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## sebrench

Saco said:


> I'm not entirely clear on your relationship with him. Is he aggressive toward you and your son? [/url]


I was also wondering what exactly he is doing. Aggression towards outsiders is one thing, aggression towards family members is another. It was helpful to see the trainers' evaluations, and I'm glad you included them, but I wasn't entirely clear on how the dog is behaving and to whom he is being aggressive, and what you have tried to do to correct the behavior. I would be hesitant to recommend euthanisia unless I knew the exact details of the situation. Yes, if the dog was truly a danger to your family then hard decisions would have to be made. In many cases, aggression towards strangers and dogs can be managed with the right set up and mindset. Dogs don't have to be free in the house when guests are over. In fact, even though my GSDs are not inappropriately aggresive, I usually put them outside or in a closed room when we have visitors just because they're big and formidable and lots of folks are wary of them. But then again, I'm a hermit, and try not to have visitors over too often.


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## Jchrest

No need to be embarrassed that you cannot afford an expensive trainer. I’ve has a lot of ups and downs this year, and a lot of that affected me financially. There is no shame in admitting that you know your dog needs help, but you are not in a financial position to do so. 

I think the biggest thing here is the cause/direction of the aggression, and the unknown for us reading. Is he aggressive towards you and your son? You mentioned him being too sensitive to groom. How does he react when you go to brush him? 

Lyka did the same “I’m cool” thing when people were sitting, and then chased them out with ankle nips when they got up to leave. It’s fear causing that. They are okay when the person is sitting because they don’t see anything threatening. When they stand, however, it’s putting him into a panicked flight or fight mode, and he’s going for the fear fight. Get them out of my house as quickly as I possibly can. This is easy to work out, but time consuming. 

Biting the trainer? I’d have wanted to bite him too. Let someone three times your size flip you and hold you in submission, and see if your natural fight instincts don’t come out. Biting the tech that muzzled him, not great, but not the worse thing that has ever happened in a vets office, I can promise you that. But what was the outcome of the bite? Did he puncture skin? Or was it a quick warning mouthing going on? If he showed bite inhibition and didn’t apply pressure behind his bite, it’s not a dog I would even consider euthanizing. 

What have you done training wise yourself? Do you do continued training with him on a daily basis? Even my 9yr old still gets a kick out of her short 10-15 minute daily sessions. 

Not sure what info you have been messaged, but keep in mind, even members on this forum with a ton of experience contradict each other, and some seem like they know their stuff, but have questionable methods. Just be very choosey in who/what advice you’re taking, including my own! We all have different experiences, different directions we want to take our dogs in, and some know a lot about the breed, but have only worked with puppies from reputable breeders, so they started off on good footing. Some have only had rescues and wouldn’t know what to do with a great breeder pup because they are so much easier than working with nerved dogs, that training can often fall to the weigh-side and they let them “train themselves.” And of course, everyone in the middle of the two as well. 

I really do wish you and your guy all the luck, and hope you can find a way to get him in a better place mentally, or physically if it’s something you just can’t take on yourself.


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## Sunsilver

Okay, here's what I'm seeing that really shows the situation:

My recommendations begin with safe management + *training respectful behavior towards you and you son.* ...If you want to keep him in your home, avoid being injured or getting sued I’d jump on the training bandwagon ASAP. *I don’t care a lot about what you train him to do.* I supply some general recommendations in the handouts and Training section below but we’ve *got to get his youthful cheeky behavior on the home front under control. "*

"his young behavioral history speaks more to me about a* genetic fearful tendency* than a specific issue with other dogs UNLESS he had some particularly untoward negative experiences very early on. I think he is insecure by nature and likely always has been..... but you are going to need to make some significant changes in your behavior and emotions in order to keep him safe with you. "

"You really need to seriously work on changing your relationship if you want to safely keep Silas in your home. He seems incapable of adjusting his emotional state towards his presumed “enemy” or “competitor”.* I do believe Silas views you as more of a resource than a guardian. *

So, the dog is not being respectful towards his owner. He sees the owner as more of a resource, i.e. dispenser of food and treats, than someone to be respected and obeyed.

As has been said above, the animal behaviourist says it doesn't matter WHAT the owner trains the dog to do - the need is to get the dog to start obeying, and doing as it is told, instead of just doing as it pleases.

It is this that makes me think this dog CAN be saved, but the owner first of all needs to learn HOW to train, rather than just letting the dog walk all over her.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Sunsilver said:


> Okay, here's what I'm seeing that really shows the situation:
> 
> My recommendations begin with safe management + *training respectful behavior towards you and you son.* ...If you want to keep him in your home, avoid being injured or getting sued I’d jump on the training bandwagon ASAP. *I don’t care a lot about what you train him to do.* I supply some general recommendations in the handouts and Training section below but we’ve *got to get his youthful cheeky behavior on the home front under control. "*
> 
> "his young behavioral history speaks more to me about a* genetic fearful tendency* than a specific issue with other dogs UNLESS he had some particularly untoward negative experiences very early on. I think he is insecure by nature and likely always has been..... but you are going to need to make some significant changes in your behavior and emotions in order to keep him safe with you. "
> 
> "You really need to seriously work on changing your relationship if you want to safely keep Silas in your home. He seems incapable of adjusting his emotional state towards his presumed “enemy” or “competitor”.* I do believe Silas views you as more of a resource than a guardian. *
> 
> So, the dog is not being respectful towards his owner. He sees the owner as more of a resource, i.e. dispenser of food and treats, than someone to be respected and obeyed.
> 
> As has been said above, the animal behaviourist says it doesn't matter WHAT the owner trains the dog to do - the need is to get the dog to start obeying, and doing as it is told, instead of just doing as it pleases.
> 
> It is this that makes me think this dog CAN be saved, but the owner first of all needs to learn HOW to train, rather than just letting the dog walk all over her.


But she can't afford a trainer? OP is probably not going to be able to responsibly rehome this dog. 

A really good rescue, a really good trainer, or a really good breeder could possibly responsibly rehome him with resources and knowledge (neither of which OP has). A good rescue isn't going to touch him because of the bite history. Sounds like maybe the breeder is not so good or unwilling/unable to help since they already said to euth. 

That leaves a good trainer. She can't afford a b&t, can she afford and is she willing to buckle down with a good one on one trainer?

I suspect that due to all these factors this dog never leaves his property, is that correct? So he is potentially way frustrated and under exercised and understimulated?


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## wolfy dog

There are trainers and vets who don't have a clue about behavior. Train him to accept the (basket)muzzle first and never have him off leash in the presence of anyone who he can be a danger to.
Vasectomy vs neutering seems better. He needs his testosterone to build confidence and drive. Neutering will turn his coat to mush as well ( I know it is not the most crucial issue here) Work him well so he is physically and mentally tire/spent. Be happy and upbeat with him. Don't blame him for anything. Leash time inside and outside and crate time is what I wold give him.
Next time at the vet, only take medical advice and YOU are the one taking off the muzzle, once you are back in the car with him. Isn't there an IPO club in your area that can help you? Prozac in humans can work against the issue so maybe with dogs as well?
Do not return him to the breeder as she will put him down. Where are you located (PM me if needed). I think he has several options and it is not hopeless but it will take time to find the right place. I also think you haven't found the right 'professionals' yet. This dog needs leadership, someone who has his back that he can rely on. But a basket muzzle would come first for me.


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## Frisco19

This thread breaks my heart. So sorry for your situation.


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## Jenny720

I had a veterinarian and staff /(a big man vet assistant and a woman) manhandle a 8 week old puppy who we only had for 2 days. The vet felt they had to teach this puppy manners evidently and should be disciplined for being nervous- took him in the back to crate him because he was whining real loudly. The puppy was not even acting out was just nervous and whining as there was a lot of construction going outside the building, did not like car rides at the time, the smell of the vets office, and they just quicked him, and obviously their energy. The vet told my kids “who do you like better the puppy or Bella. Bella was perfect you must really miss her ” (bella our previous dog who passed)was just in shock as we just placed a kitten we found and took care to the vet tech a few months prior” we were long time clients. I was dangerously glaring out her and all my focus keeping my composure as this visit was supposed to by fun turned into just an awful experience. A complete opposite experience when he was seen by another vet- calm actually fell asleep waiting to be seen. I was glad he did not seem unphased by that awful first time puppy vet visit. It was traumatizing for me. There are professionals out there who are just not comfortable with the breed. Their judgment or previous experiences get in the way with of what is in front of them-which tells me their skill level. I’m all for second , third opinions and recommendations.I think it is good to find a local Ipo club for evaluations , advise and possibly some other connections of that are willing to help and flexible during financial struggles. a big decision and advise should be from hands on skilled reputable professionals.


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## KimJ

(See above for baby Silas picture. Couldn't figure out how to edit and add it here after I posted.)

Ugh, sorry for delay, been one danged thing after another healthwise! Anyway, I'll try to answer some questions (and thanks again everyone for weighing in):

1. The bite was not "horrible," did not need stitches but did break the skin. He only bit that one nightmare of a "trainer," and lunged at vet tech but did not make contact.
2. Yes, he spends WAY TOO MUCH TIME alone and with little exercise other than playing fetch with me in his fenced in area of yard off the porch. I own that 100% - my fault. I am afraid to take him out, which of course, he may sense. In public, I have to be 100% vigilant for people (obviously), dogs (he freaks out) cars (he lunges at them). It's no picnic and I can only barely control him. I am also - embarrassed to admit but we're talking about his life not my stupid pride - afraid of him when he's in his "wild" modes. In the past, he had lept and snapped at my clothing when out, but this was a good year and a half ago when he was still a puppy. My first Shep did this also but outgrew it. Could be he has too but I don't know. I am also afraid of him when (see .3)
3. Overall, he is good with me and my son. No aggression EXCEPT possibly when I leave the house. He flips out. Begins with him staring at and barking at my purse (which I pick up when I leave, obviously he associates me leaving with the purse.) From there he jumps, spins and circles while barking wildly. When I walk to the door, USUALLY he runs ahead and jumps into a window seat in the living room to watch me leave. He stops barking the second I am out of his sight. I say "USUALLY" because in the past 2 weeks he has jumped and snapped at me when I leave. No contact. Yet.
4. He has appt at vet on Oct 30. Going to discontinue the Prozac, hopefully get him his rabies shot and heartworm bloodtest. He will be muzzled. We will see how this goes.
5. Ideally, I would just like to see him re-homed to someone who will appreciate his "special needs" and work with him. And love him. He can be so sweet sometimes and just loves his toys and will play fetch all day long. I too am a horse person - in the horse world, we have a phrase "out horsed" when someone is riding a horse too much/strong for them. With Silas, I am "out dogged." He is too much for me and deserves so much better. Thanks again.

EDIT: found the post I wrote about him at 7 months with vet, if anyone is interested: https://www.germanshepherds.com/for...7-month-old-aggressive-vet-2.html#post8679466


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## KimJ

My poor Silas as puppy. Just ... because. :crying:


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## Shane'sDad

I'm the last one here to jump on the rehome bandwagon but.....Silas needs a leader...someone he can respect....I hope for his sake you can find him that "someone"....luck to you and Silas....


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## tim_s_adams

No shame in admitting you're "out dogged". Some dogs just require strong leadership, and that's not everyone's cup of tea. Best of luck finding him a good home, he doesn't sound to me like he's a bad dog...and he is handsome!


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