# HELP - very frustrated with 7 month old puppy



## High Impact

The entire family is extremely frustrated with our 7 month old German Shepherd and the amount of time that is required for us to responsibly care and train for this type of dog. I never dreamt the intensity of the drive of this type of animal. I love Zoot but reluctantly I am getting very close to thinking I may need to find a new home for her. My wife is frustrated at the amount of additional cleaning required, the children (ages 9, 12 and 15) can’t handle her nor have they fulfilled their end of the agreement we had as a family to commit to working with a German Shepherd. I have found a daily routine that calms her down to a tolerable level and it resembles this: Get up early (before kids) shower, take zoot out, walk her “at least” one mile, make sure she poops, play Frisbee, go through training routine of sitz, plotz, a few recalls, foose, etc…, brush fur, bring in house on lead, close doors to all rooms, serve food and water, she drinks some, she either waits or chases kids and doesn’t eat for at least 15 – 20 minutes while I wait around for her. After she finally eats she usually goes out and then gets crated or comes to my office with me. Now that the kids are in school if she gets crated she is in there until at least 3:30 in the afternoon. When girls get home they take her out and then usually crate her again because they can’t handle her energy and playfulness. She is usually ready to freak out when my wife or I get home. When I have meetings at night (which is often) my wife is forced to care for zoot as well as cook supper, laundry and do homework with kids. My wife is at her wits end and I have evening meetings often. If I am home early/mid evening I feed her and then take her for another long walk and play Frisbee (she loves Frisbee). I finally get to eat while she goes in her crate, after I am done I help whatever homework couldn’t be figured out from earlier and then spend all evening with zoot babysitting her while she is out of her crate. She usually turns into a crazy maniac at night, sometime between 8pm – 10pm. So I will either work her in the house or take her out to play or for a late night walk. On top of this exhausting schedule she continues to nip the kids when she gets excited. She was doing so well for a while but then the kids went back to school and everything changed. I believe that she is beginning to suffer from a slight case of separation anxiety and sometimes we come home to a crate and dog covered in urine. (I have another thread for advice on working with that issue)

I don’t know what else to do. My family has been taxed emotionally, physically and financially by me trying to own my dream dog – a personal protection German Shepherd. I think at this stage of life it may simply be too much for us. I don’t want to give her up but I see no other solution at this time. My trainer recommended maybe building a small dog run in the garage to periodically place her in when we don’t have time or when we leave for long hours. I don’t know if this is a good option. Please make a recommendation if there is something you see we are missing. 

Thank you in advance to all of you for your wonderful suggestions. ;-)


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## Tonto

I just wanted to say that I understand your frustration and exhaustion, but it does get better. My husband wanted a working line german shepherd also, and I have never had a dog that required as much time and work as this one has. For a good portion of the first year I was covered in bruises on my arms and legs from him being a gator, and physically bumping into me. One thing that did help was obedience classes, or classes of any kind. I physically could not tire my dog out, and since my yard was not fenced he was not allowed to run loose. I had to put him on a leash and walk him. He was so high energy I would walk him before I took him to the vet hoping to tire him out some. The classes would tire him out mentally, as I have heard people on here say. He would come in from a low impact obedience class and go straight to sleep. As he got older he is much more settled. Still a ball of energy if you want to go, but not constantly following you around the house. I didn't get to sit down to watch a move with the family for close to the first year. Anyway, he just turned three, but it has been so much easier, definitely since he turned two, and for a good while before that. I will say that I have never had a dog that has given me as much as this one has either, so it has been worth every minute I ever put into caring for him, as well as all the lost sleep.


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## Emoore

1) She would benefit from some exercise in the middle of the day. Either hiring a dog walker or someone coming home at lunch

2) Classes

3) Springpole/flirtpole

4) Play 2-ball


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## W.Oliver

This should be a sticky thread for all prospective first time GSD puppy owners to read.

Now that you own a working dog, you have but two options...you're in the deep end of the pool, and you can either sink, or swim?

If you elect to sink, absolutely nothing wrong with that...and when you think of sharing your life for the next ten years or more with this GSD, that really may be the best option. I would urge you to make that decision sooner rather than later. The younger you rehome the pup, the better for the pup and the next owner/trainer.

If you decide to swim...get into some type of training activity...good for you, good for the dog, and good for the family when the dog has a job, there will be more downtime in the evening. It does get better as the GSD matures, but the first 12 to 18 months are very challenging.

Posting here is an excellent way to sort-out your decision...best of luck.


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## SchHGSD

A dog run could be a viable option, as long as you use to it help and not as a crutch. She can play with toys, use the bathroom, and just have some free "her" time. She can use her mind if you give her good toys, satisfy some drive as well.


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## jakeandrenee

On top of classes, flirt pole (God send), fetch, also maybe try a treat/kibble dispensing toy that she can eat her kibble from. It will make her use her mind and give you some extra time. But I agree sooner to make that choice than later.


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## crisp

Not a knock on the original poster, but I wish people would really think before they get their 'dream' dog. I think people seriously underestimate the work that comes with owning a GSD. I understand also, I work, play in a hockey league, have a 1 y/old daughter and a pregnant wife. It is hard, but I made the choice to hang out with my dog every free chance I get versus doing anything else. 

As far as advice, people are saying the correct things. It will get easier with age and more excercise and classes definitely will help. But, IMO, most critical is the mental satisfaction. These are working dogs, they need a job. Obviously, its hard to commit to organized schedules but you can always play interactive games to make him think and work. Hide his favorite toy and make him look for it. Coach him at first by looking at the area and when he finds praise like crazy and treat. Once he gets the hang of it, stop coaching him. In no time you will witness the true majesty of your dog as he will start using his nose and find the toy under a stack of pillows. The game will satify his physical and mental activity needs. And, hey, you just started on Search and Rescue training.


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## Stosh

Maybe you've read several similar threads recently- I can think of at least three where the owner said the same thing, they made a big mistake and were ready to give up. Try reading those and you'll get some good ideas and see how others have handled the frustration and the things that worked for them. I would suggest a class as well and take the entire family, or have a trainer come to the house and train everyone as a group. As W. Oliver said, if you do decide to rehome the dog, do it soon! This is a stage they all go through but without proper training, and soon, your problems will only escalate.


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## MaggieRoseLee

W.Oliver said:


> This should be a sticky thread for all prospective first time GSD puppy owners to read.
> 
> Now that you own a working dog, you have but two options...you're in the deep end of the pool, and you can either sink, or swim?
> 
> If you elect to sink, absolutely nothing wrong with that...and when you think of sharing your life for the next ten years or more with this GSD, that really may be the best option. I would urge you to make that decision sooner rather than later. The younger you rehome the pup, the better for the pup and the next owner/trainer.
> 
> If you decide to swim...get into some type of training activity...good for you, good for the dog, and good for the family when the dog has a job, there will be more downtime in the evening. It does get better as the GSD matures, but the first 12 to 18 months are very challenging.
> 
> Posting here is an excellent way to sort-out your decision...best of luck.


Well put! :thumbup: And exactly why I pretty much never recommend a GSD for 'normal' people with 'normal' busy lives.


Getting a GSD puppy is a much bigger commitment of money, patience, training and TIME (have to say that again, so I will  ) TIME, than most people are able to schedule into their already overwhelming lives. And, sadly, many of us don't realize what this actually means until after we've added the puppy to our lives and the issues and problems start popping up cause we are in no way prepared to adequetely deal with them.

Good luck with whatever you decide, and hopefully you have a great RESPONSIBLE breeder that you purchased your pup from that will be able to help with any decision you make.


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## Jason L

I kind of winced when the OP mentioned "Dream dog ... Personal Protection German Shepherd".


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## High Impact

Thanks for the great replies and for allowing me to vent. I don't know what I would do had I not found this online forum - great info and support here.

We are constantly in training with Zoot. We have gone through the PetSmart beginer course and have been faithfully training on a weekly basis with our local sheriff department's K9 trainer since we brought her home. Every Thursday we spend three hours out at the training facility - those are the best evenings at home since she is still recovering from the workout and a little slower moving but then again so am I. lol

Crisp, I'm not taking what you said to be a "knock" at all. My wife and I are extremely responsible and never jump into a decision without forethought. This decision was no different. I had done a ton of research prior to the purchase but I will clearly tell you that a reliable and authoritative source is NOT readily available or easily identifiable to a "potential" naive GSD owner - EVEN one who thoroughly takes the time to research and talk to so called "professionals". In hindsight it has become clear to me that my wife and I were given sooooooo much conflicting information from Pet Smart employees, trainers, breeders and the internet. We have learned mostly by trial/error, this forum, books and experience in owning a GSD puppy. A lot of what we know now we wouldn't know had we not moved a GSD into our home. I wish I had spoken to and visited a few GSD owner's homes before making our decision.

Please know that we love our little pup dearly and care for her as one of our children. If we make the decision to rehome this pup it will be terribly difficult for the entire family. It is my hope to find the stamina to make it because I continually hear that it WILL be worth it. I already don't know how I could bear the boring life without her. lol We THOUGHT that we were ready for the work we THOUGHT we'd have to go through. ha, boy were we naive. lol

Just for the record, as frustrated as my wife and I are currently we still have not lost our sense of humor and joy of life.


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## High Impact

Jason L said:


> I kind of winced when the OP mentioned "Dream dog ... Personal Protection German Shepherd".


Jason, why couldn't I have seen you wince 6 months ago? I would wince now as well. LOL


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## jakeandrenee

That is great that you are keeping an upbeat attitude and it must be hard. If she still has that much energy I really would consider building a flirt pole, it is a way for her channel some energy and a great thing that the kids can do with her.... and it is an awesome work out for the puppy. They are cheap, and easy to put together. I made mine with a cheap horse lunge whip and an old toy. For me when Jake is really FULL of energy it helps...then we are able to go on walk and do other things. And like others have said some mental games to wear her mind out as well. Hiding toys, and I can't live with out my kibble dispensing toy and frozen bones....GOOD LUCK


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## MaggieRoseLee

High Impact said:


> Please know that we love our little pup dearly and care for her as one of our children. If we make the decision to rehome this pup it will be terribly difficult for the entire family. It is my hope to find the stamina to make it because I continually hear that it WILL be worth it. I already don't know how I could bear the boring life without her. lol We THOUGHT that we were ready for the work we THOUGHT we'd have to go through. ha, boy were we naive. lol
> 
> Just for the record, as frustrated as my wife and I are currently we still have not lost our sense of humor and joy of life.


GSD pups really can be harder than other breeds. So it's not like you are lazy or crazy. It really is different. The very attributes that make these such great herders, bomb dogs, search and rescue dogs, drug dogs, agility dogs, obedience dogs, trackers, etc. are the EXACT same attributes (mentally and physically for us and the pups) that make them such a challenge! 

I really know that what takes the edge off and helps with management is exercise. And I can't give a specific amount. What I can say is when my dogs have enough exercise, my life is SO MUCH EASIER! So if it's a 5 mile hike in the woods 3 times a week, then that's what it is. 





 
If it's a canoeing trip with relatives, then that's what it is.





 
If it's reading the newspaper and spending MY Saturday at a doggy event, then it is.


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## crisp

You really do have a wonderful attitude and it sounds like you are working very hard on making the best of your situation. I really menat nothing personall by my comment. I just recall seeing on every GSD website statements like: loves to exercise, great energy, working dog, great trainability, etc. Those seem like purely positive descriptions and appeal to anyone interested in a GSD, but in reality, they mean we all have to work extremely hard to satisfy the dog. Try some of the advice people are posting. We've all at one time were close to losing it with our pups. Whatever you decide, I wish you the best.


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## Lilie

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Well put! :thumbup: And exactly why I pretty much never recommend a GSD for 'normal' people with 'normal' busy lives.


I knew I wasn't normal! I knew it! I knew it! :wild:


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## Marissa

Depending on the weather I LOVE cani-cross for my dogs, although it's my pointer that gets the most out of it. You hook them up to a harness and they run ahead of you. It's supposed to be like "dry land sledding." Once they understand the commands (gee, haw, easy, go etc) you can hook them up to a bike or cross country skis in the winter. This is an EXCELLENT way to tire a dog out. Now obviously this would need to be something done slowly with a young and growing dog but definetly something to look into. Also swimming is a wonderful activity that is easy on the joints and does wonders on tiring dogs out. Good luck


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## Jelpy

*doggie descriptions*



crisp said:


> I just recall seeing on every GSD website statements like: loves to exercise, great energy, working dog, great trainability, etc. Those seem like purely positive descriptions and appeal to anyone interested in a GSD, but in reality, they mean we all have to work extremely hard to satisfy the dog. Try some of the advice people are posting. We've all at one time were close to losing it with our pups. Whatever you decide, I wish you the best.


:rofl:

I'm sorry, I can just remember the time my mom decided to get into Tibetan Terriers described amongst other things as "a healthy, bouncy..... fun temperament.....highly intelligent, sensitive, and devoted...determined et al"

After buying two she decided this was alternative speak:

Healthy-can give every other dog on the place diarrhea with suffering unduly himself. 

Bouncy-Can jump from the floor to the kitchen table without effort

Fun temperment-Define fun

Highly intellegent-will figure out how to let all your dogs out of the yard in record time

Sensitive-Will sulk when reprimanded for same 

Devoted-Wants to sleep on the bed, no matter what

Determined-You could lock this dog up in a cell in alcatraz and he'd find a way to get out. 

Jelpy


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## Korubell

Jason L said:


> I kind of winced when the OP mentioned "Dream dog ... Personal Protection German Shepherd".


And I wince whenever I hear of dogs being put in crates for any reason other than air travel. If I were shoved in a crate for hours on end I'd be hard to handle too.


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## MaggieRoseLee

Korubell said:


> And I wince whenever I hear of dogs being put in crates for any reason other than air travel. If I were shoved in a crate for hours on end I'd be hard to handle too.


Hm............... my 'poor' pups are in the crates 8 hours at night. And 8 hours when I am at work. They have such sad and pathetic lives the poor things....





 




 




 




 
For me, if I can't be awake and around to teach or guide my pups, the crate is the safest place in the world. It's what I do when I AM awake and AM home that is important. And I pay attention to that and my dogs seem to do just fine


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## crisp

You took the words out of my mouth MRL. Allthough to be fair, my dog has had a full run of the house since she's been 16 - 17 months. When working from home a few times, I've realised that she switched her interest from chewing my couch legs to sleeping for the hours when I am away or occupied with something else. IMO, all puppies should be crate trained.


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## rjvamp

*What about Treadmill Training?*

we have a treadmill being delivered on Monday to begin treadmill training for Angeles. He has a ton of energy and I have really worked with him to where even though he has a high drive he knows when I tell him to either settle or go to bed he settles or he sometimes goes to bed mad at me...then comes back a few seconds later! LOL

treadmills during winter (or even really hot days) are a great way to get that energy out - of course safely use them. I found this one person's training site and I'm going to follow these directions.

Treadmill Training Your Canine

Was fortunate to go to Exercise Equipment - Home Fitness Equipment at ProForm.com and they had a 50% off sale a few weeks ago so the 1050T arrives monday and using the Bill Me Later option so I can make payments. So I can use it and so can Angeles and my girl dog Cotton.

One thing to remember as a pup or at least until they pass 18 months you don't want to run them hard or have them jump much. I remember we had a time with Angeles because he was always on the go! But now I can walk longer with him because he is over 18 months old - he turned 2 years on May 3. 

Best in your decision. Sometimes things DON'T work out and you should not feel ashamed if you need to rehome your pup.


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## clearcreekranch

I agree with most of the advice given. We have only had our "working dog" for about 5 mos. and he is most definitely a lot of work. I have no children, but a large property and other animals including horses. And sometimes I, too, get stressed from the amount of work involved owning this dog. For me, it is definitely worth it and I have made the appropriate commitment as well as many sacrifices. These dogs are NOT for the average family who already have too many responsibilities and time restrictions. I would have a family meeting to discuss your options and to see if anyone else is willing to step up the commitment level. If not, then finding a good home should be a viable option without guilt or regret. These dogs are family and a decision should be made as to their best interests and not just our convenience. Oh, and I do put my gsd on the treadmill. Problem is, I think it winds him up more than wears him out!


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## Stosh

You might look into an obedience club in your area and take a class that teaches the Canine Good Citizen course. Besides commands your dog will learn basic manners and self control. If she's able to behave properly you won't have to continue isolating her, which only adds to the problem. That is, if you decide you want to keep her. Not every dog is a good fit and it may be best for her to be with an owner that wants a high energy dog and has the time for her. Good luck, it's a hard spot for everyone to be in


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## W.Oliver

Korubell said:


> And I wince whenever I hear of dogs being put in crates for any reason other than air travel. If I were shoved in a crate for hours on end I'd be hard to handle too.


 Are you suggesting a denning animal should not be allowed to do so unless they are flying?

Some folks raise their dog such that the crate is punishment, and when they're angry the dog is banished to jail, with tone and body language to match....I wouldn't want to go either. 

Conversely, if you raise the dog such that their crate is their den, and it is a positive, safe retreat...what you'll end-up with is a dog that spends the day at SchH training...in the crate ten hours, out of the crate for fifteen minutes a half dozen times through-out the day, and when we finally get home.....she lays in the crate, in the back of the vehicle, with the door to both the vehicle and the crate open....and won't get out. My dog will lay in the crate in the vehicle out in the driveway this way for hours. Either in anticipation of training, or after training....does she look stressed & abused or lazy & sleepy?








It isn't just the crate in the vehicle....she does the same thing with the crate in our greatroom. She can get away from the children and take a nap in her den...with the door open.


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## Konotashi

I crate Ozzy when I'm gone. Yeah, he cries when I leave, and when he has to wait to see me when I get home, but I leave it open for him during the day and he always runs in it to play with his toys or to take a nap. 

I think it's much more 'humane' than getting mad at him and losing my temper when he destroys some prized possession of mine, especially seeing as how all he does in there is sleep or try to get peanut butter out of his kong.


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## onyx'girl

I have three GSD's and my 17 month old pup is from working lines. 
If I had only him, I think he would have been much more a handful. Thankfully Onyx and Kacie have been a help in getting out his energy. They are from mixed lines and pretty energetic too.
Not saying to get another pup, but wearing out the one you have will make her easier to live with(mentally as well as physically). Training one night a week for 3 hours is not enough. Do you track with your pup? 
I read your previous threads and you got the alpha pup from the litter, so you should have had a heads up on what you were getting into. 
3 children and life is very stressful...if you can get thru the next 6 mos or so and keep on training Zoot you'll be rewarded I'm sure. Please don't give up on her~though if you do decide to re-home, have the breeder and other GSD friends help with this to set Zoot up for success. She deserves it!
Crating is wonderful, I don't currently use them except in the training vehicle, but all of my dogs are fine when I need to contain them. The door is always open and now and then they take turns in the one I have set up permanently, just to have that peace as Wayne posted above.


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## JakodaCD OA

Something to think about: I think you should sit down with your entire family and formulate a 'plan' regarding Zoot. Everyone needs to pitch in and help to make it successfull, kids and all. If EVERYONE is not on board things will not get better. 

While I know you love her, I think you should think about what's fair for her. It definately sounds like there is alot of frustration going on, alot of work, busy lives, not enough time for the dog, you seem to be the only one doing anything with her.

I commend you for being honest, and rehoming may be what's best for her.
Good luck with your decision, it's a tough one.


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## Emoore

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Well put! :thumbup: And exactly why I pretty much never recommend a GSD for 'normal' people with 'normal' busy lives.


Not necessarily. The rescue I volunteer with has placed a LOT of GSDs over 4 or 5 years old to first-time dog owners with normal, busy lives. This is an option I wish a lot more people would consider for their first dog or first Shepherd, but *sigh* everybody wants a puppy.


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## crisp

Emoore said:


> Not necessarily. The rescue I volunteer with has placed a LOT of GSDs over 4 or 5 years old to first-time dog owners with normal, busy lives. This is an option I wish a lot more people would consider for their first dog or first Shepherd, but *sigh* everybody wants a puppy.


 Great Point! I think people were referring to the puppy/adolescent stages though. Older dogs are usually more settled.


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## JakodaCD OA

I am definately on board recommending to first time owners to go for an older dog whether it's reputable rescue or a breeder. You get what you see.


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## Korubell

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Hm............... my 'poor' pups are in the crates 8 hours at night. And 8 hours when I am at work. They have such sad and pathetic lives the poor things....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So your dogs are put in a box for 16 hours a day. That's not something I'd be proud to advertise. If I couldn't let my dog have the run of the backyard, where he can chase bees and butterflies, play tug with ropes tied to trees, 'chat' to the neighbours (and get a rump scratch or treat from them through the fence), bury his toys and bones and dig them up again, then I'd be tempted to get a pet more suited to cage life, like a guinea pig. I think it's a pretty hideous practice, and where I live the authorities would be likely to remove a dog that's kept caged.


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## Asche-zu-Staub

have you thought of giving her some sort of "Job"? I began tracking with my working dog at the age, and there was a dramatic change. She was also absolutely insane, nipping at kids exc. I began doing herding to fix her nipping, and kept up with the tracking (which only takes half hour max). Its something you could do with the kids too, its like "hide and seek!" They'd have fun with that, and it would help her natural drives. Crating helps a lot when you're not home also. When she's a brat, i'll crate her while i'm here, in a room where she cant see us, and she gets bored and just goes to sleep. She's also still a puppy. Only 6 months later, my girl is my perfect dream dog. She's at a hard age...they're bigger than most puppies but just as crazy . I'd give her a chance to grow up a bit, at 11 months, my dog is an angel.


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## Korubell

W.Oliver said:


> Are you suggesting a denning animal should not be allowed to do so unless they are flying?
> 
> Some folks raise their dog such that the crate is punishment, and when they're angry the dog is banished to jail, with tone and body language to match....I wouldn't want to go either.
> 
> Conversely, if you raise the dog such that their crate is their den, and it is a positive, safe retreat...what you'll end-up with is a dog that spends the day at SchH training...in the crate ten hours, out of the crate for fifteen minutes a half dozen times through-out the day, and when we finally get home.....she lays in the crate, in the back of the vehicle, with the door to both the vehicle and the crate open....and won't get out. My dog will lay in the crate in the vehicle out in the driveway this way for hours. Either in anticipation of training, or after training....does she look stressed & abused or lazy & sleepy?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It isn't just the crate in the vehicle....she does the same thing with the crate in our greatroom. She can get away from the children and take a nap in her den...with the door open.


I guess it's just a different mind-set. If you're competing somewhere with your dog, then a cage in your car is probably the safest way of transporting them.

Here's how I work with my dog. When we're not home he has the run of the backyard, for reasons I've just posted in another reply. At night he sleeps on the back porch, which is fully enclosed so he can't get out in the dark and harass hedgehogs and bark his head off, waking the neighbours. the porch has windows that he can see out of. His toy box is there, so if he wakes during the night he can play with his toys. He also has a water bowl there. The porch door has two cabin hooks, one short, which allows air to circulate on hot nights, the other is long enough to chock the door openwide enough for him to get out, but to keep most of the rain out on wet days. His bed area is away from the door. Out int he yard he has a kennel he can go to if he wants.

If I'm working in the yard on a nice day and don't want him digging up what I've planted, or dragging my prunings all over the place, I chain him to the fence on a 4m chain. He can see me, can laze in the sun and sleep. He can interact with neighbours, play with toys, dig, etc. I'll often give him a piece of garden rubbish to chew on while I work - a pruned branch, a piece of firewood, or whatever. He's still a pup, so when he needs his sleep he'll go to his bed on the porch and snooze for a few hours during a normal day.

I don't believe animals should be on beds or furniture, so he doesn't get to sleep with us. None of my pets ever have.

I'm sorry, but I find the whole idea of containing a dog in a crate for the owner's convenience disturbing. And of course, I wouldn't have got a dog if I didn't have a grassy backyard and if it was going to spend the work day alone. It's unfair.


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## doggiedad

once you decide you want a dog the next
thing you have to do is decide if you have time
for the dog and can you afford a dog.

when the dog is a pup i suggest puppy classes
and then OB classes. you have to train and socialize
your dog everyday several times a day.
you train, train, train and socialize, socialize, socialize.
there's no great secret to having a well trained and highly
socialized dog. you and your family (mainly you and your wife)
have to committ.

oh yeah i forgot, stop with all of the crate time and spend
time with your dog. family time, training time, socializing time.
you can't do that with a crated dog.

i have to be in work at 7:30am. before the pup i got up at
5:30am. when the pup came home i got up at 4:00am so
i could train and socialize before going to work. my training sessions only last 5 to 10 minutes so i could get in a couple before
leaving for work. my GF morning hours vary but she still got up
an hour early so she could train and socialize before she leaves
for work. my neighbor came in several times a day to let
our dog out and feed or treat him and she helped train him.
all of us trained in the same manner usuing the same words.
we also took a month off from work when i pup came home.

these dogs are so easy to train. you have to be committed
to their training and socializing. it's easy when you stay on top
off it and not make excuses like, we have children, i go to work
early, my wife has to cook and clean, the dog is hard to train, it takes
so much time. once you drop the excuses and committ to training
and socializing it's a peice of cake. yes, it's a sacrifice and you have to alter your life around the dogs welfare but once you do it
you're going to have a nice well trained and highly socialized dog.
don't make excuses make positive results.


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## Jax08

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Hm............... my 'poor' pups are in the crates 8 hours at night. And 8 hours when I am at work. They have such sad and pathetic lives the poor things....





Korubell said:


> So your dogs are put in a box for 16 hours a day. That's not something I'd be proud to advertise. If I couldn't let my dog have the run of the backyard, where he can chase bees and butterflies, play tug with ropes tied to trees, 'chat' to the neighbours (and get a rump scratch or treat from them through the fence), bury his toys and bones and dig them up again, then I'd be tempted to get a pet more suited to cage life, like a guinea pig. I think it's a pretty hideous practice, and where I live the authorities would be likely to remove a dog that's kept caged.


Obviously such a great owner as yourself would never let puppies be unattended where they could get into things that would harm, or kill, them so you should be thankful that you have the life of the unemployed . 

There is nothing abusive about crating a dog. And no AC is going to remove a dog for being crated at night while a puppy and while ppl are at work. 

There is something incredibly stupid about letting your dog run loose to eat things that can kill him/her while they are still to young to know they are supposed to eat everything. 

You should read up on animals that live in dens before shooting from the hip.


----------



## doggiedad

i kind of winced at the idea of them having a dog. sounds
like they're not ready to commit to having a dog
and making allof the sacrifices you have to make when you
have a dog especially if you want a well trained, highly
socialized dog.

i think you have to put the time in with a dog no matter
what breed it is. Shepherds are so easy to train.
they learn so fast. you have to put the time in.



Jason L said:


> I kind of winced when the OP mentioned "Dream dog ... Personal Protection German Shepherd".


----------



## Mrs.K

High Impact,


experienced owners know how much work a German Shepherd is but at the same time we forgot how much work it really is. I don't even recognize it as hard work, even though I have to adult dogs and one puppy that is pretty much the same age as yours. 

She's super high drive but to me it's not much work because I am so used to it and most of the experienced owners are used to how German Shepherds are so even if we say that it is a lot of work it may actually not come through as one of the toughest jobs. 

However, human babys are probably just as much as work as a puppy. If you stick it out she will become calmer and will become your dream dog. Right now she is probably going through the rowdy phase as well. My pup is right in the middle of it.

I do a lot of clickertraining and go on a lot of hikes with my dogs.


----------



## [email protected]

Korubell said:


> MaggieRoseLee said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hm............... my 'poor' pups are in the crates 8 hours at night. And 8 hours when I am at work. They have such sad and pathetic lives the poor things....
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtr7aG-MJCYSo your dogs are put in a box for 16 hours a day. That's not something I'd be proud to advertise. If I couldn't let my dog have the run of the backyard, where he can chase bees and butterflies, play tug with ropes tied to trees, 'chat' to the neighbours (and get a rump scratch or treat from them through the fence), bury his toys and bones and dig them up again, then I'd be tempted to get a pet more suited to cage life, like a guinea pig. I think it's a pretty hideous practice, and where I live the authorities would be likely to remove a dog that's kept caged.
> 
> 
> 
> This response isn't helpful to the OP or to other "normal" people who have to work to provide a good home for family and dog. I just said good bye to a GSD from working lines after 13 years. He was the best dog I ever had and I wouldn't change anything about how we bonded or shared our time. He spent the all day in a very small kennel or a crate in the house.
> 
> I would encourage the OP to consider if he needs to recalibrate his expectations. Yes you have a "working lines" dog, but that doesn't mean that he shouldn't acquire house manners that might reduce some of the stress off the family. If my dog is driving me crazy and I don't have time nor energy for him, I crate him and walk away until I'm of a state of mind where any training or bonding is likely to be more successful. I'd rather him spend an hour in a crate than spend the evening yelling "no, no, no, no".
> 
> The OP should remember that his dog is fortunate to have a considerate owner who wonders if he is doing enough. That is a gift that many dogs don't get. Give yourself a gift and set manageable expectations and see if that gives you a different perspective and allows for you, your family and the dog to adapt.
> 
> Best of luck with your decision.
Click to expand...


----------



## Mrs.K

> I just said good bye to a GSD from working lines after 13 years. He was the best dog I ever had and I wouldn't change anything about how we bonded or shared our time. He spent the all day in a very small kennel or a crate in the house.


Are you serious? He spent every day of his life in a crate for 16 hours?

Every day?

How would you feel yourself if you had to spend 16 hours a day in your own room, not being able to go outside, get something to drink and go to the bathroom. Just locked into your room, 16 hours a day until the day you die.


----------



## Mrs.K

Jax08 said:


> Obviously such a great owner as yourself would never let puppies be unattended where they could get into things that would harm, or kill, them so you should be thankful that you have the life of the unemployed .
> 
> There is nothing abusive about crating a dog. And no AC is going to remove a dog for being crated at night while a puppy and while ppl are at work.
> 
> There is something incredibly stupid about letting your dog run loose to eat things that can kill him/her while they are still to young to know they are supposed to eat everything.
> 
> You should read up on animals that live in dens before shooting from the hip.


I am with Maggie on this one. 

Indra is now 7 months old and she's barely getting crated at all. 16 hours of crating is abuse in my book. 

If you have to crate a dog for 16 hours a day, don't own a dog, period!


----------



## Jax08

Mrs.K said:


> _I am with Maggie on this one. _
> 
> Indra is now 7 months old and she's barely getting crated at all. 16 hours of crating is abuse in my book.
> 
> If you have to crate a dog for 16 hours a day, don't own a dog, period!


:thinking:

Mrs. K - Do you work? 

Maggie said she does...that why she said her pups are crated 8 hours overnight (when they would be sleeping anyways so what is the difference?) and 8 hours while she's working.

So are you with her or not? Because your post says otherwise. Maybe you should have quoted her instead of me?





> Originally Posted by *MaggieRoseLee*
> Hm............... my 'poor' pups are in the crates 8 hours at night. And 8 hours when I am at work. They have such sad and pathetic lives the poor things....
> -------
> For me, if I can't be awake and around to teach or guide my pups, the crate is the safest place in the world. It's what I do when I AM awake and AM home that is important. And I pay attention to that and my dogs seem to do just fine


----------



## Mrs.K

I must have misread something then. 

Anyhow, 16 hours, even if they are sleeping or not, is a LOT. Doesn't matter if they are asleep or not. 

I'd be incredibly bored and go nuts if I had to stay in my room, without water, television, a book to read, without the possibility to go to the bathroom and pee for 16 hours. A room that's so small that only a bed fits in there and I could only lay on the bed and maybe turn one side or the other. 

16 hours without having the possibility to stretch...

Even when they are sleeping. They get up, get water, go to the couch, get off the couch, lay on the bed, go to the crate, get out the crate, come to the bed, wander around, get a bone, chew the bone, get back to the bed... get some more water, go to the bathroom and lay down there. 

If it is an outdoor kennel we are speaking about it's different but if we are talking about a crate in the apartment and they get crated for 16 hours a day... that is too much in my opinion. However, everybody is entitled to his own opinion and I respect that. I wouldn't crate the for that long. Even if I was working, they wouldn't be crated at all. 

A dog needs to be able to stay in an apartment or house for 8 hours without having to be crated.


----------



## Melgrj7

One great way to tire the dog out is to have her search for the kids. Have the kids run and hide somewhere and teach the dog to track them down.


----------



## Jax08

Mrs.K said:


> I must have misread something then.
> 
> Anyhow, 16 hours, even if they are sleeping or not, is a LOT. Doesn't matter if they are asleep or not.
> 
> I'd be incredibly bored and go nuts if I had to stay in my room, without water, television, a book to read, without the possibility to go to the bathroom and pee for 16 hours. A room that's so small that only a bed fits in there and I could only lay on the bed and maybe turn one side or the other.
> 
> 16 hours without having the possibility to stretch...
> 
> Even when they are sleeping. They get up, get water, go to the couch, get off the couch, lay on the bed, go to the crate, get out the crate, come to the bed, wander around, get a bone, chew the bone, get back to the bed... get some more water, go to the bathroom and lay down there.
> 
> If it is an outdoor kennel we are speaking about it's different but if we are talking about a crate in the apartment and they get crated for 16 hours a day... that is too much in my opinion. However, everybody is entitled to his own opinion and I respect that. I wouldn't crate the for that long. Even if I was working, they wouldn't be crated at all.
> 
> A dog needs to be able to stay in an apartment or house for 8 hours without having to be crated.


But it's ok to be kenneled? You were going to kennel one of your dog for a long period of time at a club and you felt that was ok. Is there a bed and a couch in the kennel? So how is crating them in the house abuse? You did state it was abuse in your previous post.

I'm just not following how one is ok but the other is abuse. Both are in a "cage". Claiming that crating a dog is abuse and stating that anyone who does shouldn't own a dog is not respecting another opinion. It's an attack.


----------



## MaggieRoseLee

Korubell;1892229
[B said:


> So your dogs are put in a box for 16 hours a day. That's not something I'd be proud to advertise. If I couldn't let my dog have the run of the backyard, where he can chase bees and butterflies, play tug with ropes tied to trees, 'chat' to the neighbours (and get a rump scratch or treat from them through the fence), bury his toys and bones and dig them up again, then I'd be tempted to get a pet more suited to cage life, like a guinea pig. I think it's a pretty hideous practice, and where I live the authorities would be likely to remove a dog that's kept caged[/B].


I am not 'proud' of how much time my pups have to spend in the crate. It's reality. 

I have to sleep at night.

I have to go to work.

I need to know my pups are safe while I'm sleeping and not at home. The crate guarantees this. And I AM proud of what great dogs I have.

And if you think my dogs aren't chasing butterflies, you clearly would rather 'yell' at me and find me a horrible dog owner than watch all the videos that I posted above.

Let me assure you, my dogs are just fine. And when they are older and earn their way out of the crates, they are loose in my home. The plan is never to be crated their entire lives. Just for as long as they need to be. To be safe. 

We all have to adjust to owning a dog and having our lives. The balance to keep our dogs safe and happy is what we have to work on. For me, and for every other educated and responsible dog owner, that means we use the crate. And my dogs LOVE their crates.


----------



## W.Oliver

Jax08 said:


> You should read up on animals that live in dens before shooting from the hip.


God bless you Jax08, I was just mustering up the energy to comment on that particular flavor of Shangri-la when I read your post.


----------



## Mrs.K

Jax08 said:


> But it's ok to be kenneled? You were going to kennel one of your dog for a long period of time at a club and you felt that was ok. Is there a bed and a couch in the kennel? So how is crating them in the house abuse? You did state it was abuse in your previous post.
> 
> I'm just not following how one is ok but the other is abuse. Both are in a "cage". Claiming that crating a dog is abuse and stating that anyone who does shouldn't own a dog is not respecting another opinion. It's an attack.


A kennel is a lot different from a crate, a crate is small, they can't walk around, they can't stretch. A kennel over here is much bigger. They require a certain size in Germany (according to the law), they can get up, walk around, stretch, have access to water, possibly a run. However, it's not okay for them to be in a kennel or crate for 16 hours a day and I did never end up bringing her to that kennel and if I had, she would have stayed only over night and I would have picked her up in the morning. 

I can understand that a puppy is being crated during night, however I would only do it as long as it was necessary. 

None of my dogs are being crated. Doesn't matter if I leave or during the night. Indra was crated for some time but never ever for 16 hours a day. I couldn't justify 16 hours in a small crate like that, than yes, I'd rather have them in an outdoor kennel that has a run attached so they can run and walk around instead of having to lay in a box where they can only turn the one or the other side.


----------



## Mrs.K

> I need to know my pups are safe while I'm sleeping and not at home. The crate guarantees this. And I AM proud of what great dogs I have.


Maggie, how old are your puppies?

Are you crating all of your dogs or only the ones that are too young?

Nevermind...



> And when they are older and earn their way out of the crates, they are loose in my home. The plan is never to be crated their entire lives. Just for as long as they need to be. To be safe.


That answered my question.


----------



## MaggieRoseLee

Mrs.K said:


> Maggie, how old are your puppies?
> 
> Are you crating all of your dogs or only the ones that are too young?
> 
> Nevermind...
> 
> That answered my question.


For me, crates are just another tool to use to train and manage my pups/dogs. So I use them for as long as and when I need to in the house. But I still LOVE crate training for my dogs. 

They don't mind near as much if they are sick and have to be in a cage at the vets.

They don't mind me using a crate when I'm at my parents and we go out cause they otherwise would get up on the furniture which my mom does NOT like.

They are able to rest and sleep at the crazy of dog trial (I really mean sleep) so are comfortable and ready to run when it's our time on course. Can't stress it enough that THEY are able to rest and actually sleep. Which is important when we usually are at the trial at least 6 to 8 hours and surrounded by the nutso of an agility trial. (keeping them in a hot car is usually not a better option and certainly would give them more freedom).

Watch the beginning of this video, this is an indoor trial and the crate area is all at the start.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

korubell: You find the use of a crate disturbing, I guess some of us would find it disturbing that your dog stays outside day and night. never in the house? Never on the furniture? Gosh it just wouldn't be normal if I wasn't picking dog hair out of my food or didn't come across a muddy pawprint on my bed

And as for 'crating', crates are a wonderful thing especially when you have a 'jaws' for a puppy. I have used a crate on all my puppies for over 12 years now. They LOVE their crates, (even tho they don't use them anymore). I only crate one dog when I am not here, the male aussie who's 9, he is a trouble maker and can't be trusted with the other dogs when no one is here to supervise..

All my dogs when young , have been crate trained and when they earn the right to not be crated, well they aren't. None of mine get crated at nite, altho masi did for awhile. 

Sure people can abuse a crate use it for the wrong reasons. The majority of people work for a living, so a crate is a necessity when a dog can't be trusted loose in the house and/or safety reasons. 

Whatever works


----------



## onyx'girl

I don't crate my dogs, but they are use to them. I have really well behaved dogs otherwise they would have to go in one for their safety. Onyx proved herself at about 7 mos and so did Karlo, though I crated him during the day til school got out(he was 14 mos) and he has now proven he is a very good boy. 
IF my dogs were distructive or got into it with each other, I would not hesitate to crate them.
I'm not against it, but for my pack we really don't need to do it at this time. 
Sometimes I think the dog I am currently training would benefit from some crate time as his focus would be more intense.
He is crated when we go to training, that can be for several hours. 
Many people who are seriously training their dogs competetively(sp?) utilize crates or kennels, the dogs don't have much "out" time except when training. 

I can see it isn't detrimental at all!
If the dog has to go to a vet and is put in a crate or kennel without ever experiencing that before, the stress level would be maxed out. I think all dogs should be conditioned to crating or kenneling.


----------



## Mrs.K

Maggie: I can fully understand when you crate them at a trial. That's a necessity and comes with competing. 

However, at home, 8 hours during the night and than another eight hours during the day. That would be illegal over here. It's considered kenneling a dog and a kennel has to have a certain size. 

A dog over the size of 65cm has to have a kennel with 10qm PLUS daylight, means you can't even keep them in a room that has no windows. If kept outside it also needs a hut that will keep them protected from the weather, means they have to be prepared for very cold winternights. If you keep your dog kenneled or crated they have to be outside the kennel for the majority of the day. Means that having them crated for 16 hours a day would be illegal and that if you kennel them during the night, they should be outside during the day or if you kennel them during the day, they shouldn't be kenneled during the night. 

Since we actually have laws like that I grew up abiding these rules. To us, crating puppies for such a long time is cruelty and you could be charged for that. I guess it's just cultural differences.

It's even in the law that a puppy can only be sold by the age of 8 weeks. That if you have several dogs, that you should hold them in groups, unless it would end up in a fight. If you have one dog that it has the right of social contacts and so on and on and on...if you are a breeder that you need an extra hand for 10 dogs, another hand for 20 and another hand for 30 dogs etc. etc. etc.


----------



## MaggieRoseLee

Mrs.K said:


> Maggie: I can fully understand when you crate them at a trial. That's a necessity and comes with competing.
> 
> However, at home, 8 hours during the night and than another eight hours during the day. That would be illegal over here. It's considered kenneling a dog and a kennel has to have a certain size.
> 
> A dog over the size of 65cm has to have a kennel with 10qm PLUS daylight, means you can't even keep them in a room that has no windows. If kept outside it also needs a hut that will keep them protected from the weather, means they have to be prepared for very cold winternights. If you keep your dog kenneled or crated it has to be outside the kennel for the majority of the day. Means that having them crated for 16 hours a day would be illegal and that he should only be kenneled over night and not during the day.
> 
> *Since we actually have laws like that I grew up abiding these rules. To us, crating puppies for such a long time is cruelty and you could be charged for that. I guess it's just cultural differences*.


I guess we need to agree to disagree about this being cruelty. Though ideally I would love to be home all the time and not have to work, that would take care of 8 hours of my necessary crate time. But no one has left me a fortune and I have bills to pay, so it's off to work I go....

To me though, leaving a dog out to eat destroy stuff and possibly end up with an expensive vet visit and sick/dead dog from all the items my puppy ate.............THAT would truly be cruel. 

Of if I lived in an area that had close neighbors that didn't appreciate my unattended pup barking all the time in the yard and reported me/had me get rid of the pup (or bad neighbors poison dogs over here)...........that would be cruel to my pup. 

I'm lucky enough that when I do get home, I arrange my life around my puppy and their needs the first year or so of their lives. I am completely comfortable with all the time I spend exercising, training and socializing them. As well as the crate time.

Frankly, the only other alternative for my situation is to not have dogs at all. And since my dogs are healthy, happy, fit and well trained (in agility anyways) I think my dogs are doing fine with the situation. :wub:


----------



## W.Oliver

This thread has evolved from helping a guy make a decision about rehoming a GSD that dosen't fit his lifestyle to an anthropomorphic condemnation of crates from a gal who dosen't even let her GSD in the house....really? My crated dog sleeps in my bed. My wife and I are shopping for a king size bed, as we're expecting a puppy this winter....so we'll need to upgrade from the queen size once Itzakat is paroled from crate training!:laugh:


----------



## W.Oliver

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Frankly, the only other alternative for my situation is to not have dogs at all. And since my dogs are healthy, happy, fit and well trained (in agility anyways) I think my dogs are doing fine with the situation. :wub:


Please! You do not need to rationalize or justify your circumstance. If I were a dog (some say I am), I'd be happy to wait in your crate for the quality of life you impart on those GSDs the balance of the time available.

To the OP...rehome the dog, and get a golden. Lets move on.


----------



## Mrs.K

MaggieRoseLee said:


> I guess we need to agree to disagree about this being cruelty. Though ideally I would love to be home all the time and not have to work, that would take care of 8 hours of my necessary crate time. But no one has left me a fortune and I have bills to pay, so it's off to work I go....
> 
> To me though, leaving a dog out to eat destroy stuff and possibly end up with an expensive vet visit and sick/dead dog from all the items my puppy ate.............THAT would truly be cruel.
> 
> Of if I lived in an area that had close neighbors that didn't appreciate my unattended pup barking all the time in the yard and reported me/had me get rid of the pup (or bad neighbors poison dogs over here)...........that would be cruel to my pup.
> 
> I'm lucky enough that when I do get home, I arrange my life around my puppy and their needs the first year or so of their lives. I am completely comfortable with all the time I spend exercising, training and socializing them. As well as the crate time.
> 
> Frankly, the only other alternative for my situation is to not have dogs at all. And since my dogs are healthy, happy, fit and well trained (in agility anyways) I think my dogs are doing fine with the situation. :wub:


And I completely understand Maggie. It's either keeping them safe or possibly have a sick puppy because it ate something it shouldnt. 
Like I said, it's not wrong to kennel them but over here they have to have a certain size, even if you keep them indoors. I couldn't keep Yukon or Zenzy in a normal crate for such a long time. If I kept them in a crate for such a long time, and somebody found out, I could get charged for that. 

But keeping them in a free and unfurnished bedroom, with access to water (they have to have access) with daylight, that would actually be okay as long as they have enough social contact and actually get exercised throughout the day.


----------



## [email protected]

Mrs.K said:


> Are you serious? He spent every day of his life in a crate for 16 hours?
> 
> Every day?
> 
> How would you feel yourself if you had to spend 16 hours a day in your own room, not being able to go outside, get something to drink and go to the bathroom. Just locked into your room, 16 hours a day until the day you die.



Congratulations that you are able to spend more time with your dog. But be considerate of other dog owners who don't have that ability and be less judgmental. Your agenda has nothing to do with helping the OP consider options for his situation.


----------



## onyx'girl

Wayne, I think all four of you will cozy it up fine in the Queen. Though, if Itzakat ends up like Karlo, then you'll need the King....just sayin
IF I came back as a GSD, I'd think MRL's place would be a wonderful one to land in...
Mrs K Germany is great that there are rules about breeding and how to contain the dogs. If you gave the dog vitamin D would it make a difference? What if you lived in shade so the dogs got little sunlight? 
I wish the US laws were a bit more regimented as far as the breedworthy status went, but that would end up overkill because of the PETA types.


----------



## W.Oliver

onyx'girl said:


> Wayne, I think all four of you will cozy it up fine in the Queen. Though, if Itzakat ends up like Karlo, then you'll need the King....just sayin


It isn't the dogs that are the problem...its the three little two-legged mongrels that crawl into bed as well that causes the over-crowding! With all that going-on in the bed...isn't it amazing I have five kids???


----------



## Mrs.K

[email protected] said:


> Congratulations that you are able to spend more time with your dog. But be considerate of other dog owners who don't have that ability and be less judgmental. Your agenda has nothing to do with helping the OP consider options for his situation.


Actually, if you have to crate a dog 16 hours a day for 13 years... than you shouldn't own a dog. If it is only for a short period until they get older, I can accept that but for every single day of their life? 

If they are outside the crate, at home, while you are at work, no problems with that but if you have to crate them their entire life than something seriously went wrong.


----------



## Mrs.K

onyx'girl said:


> Wayne, I think all four of you will cozy it up fine in the Queen. Though, if Itzakat ends up like Karlo, then you'll need the King....just sayin
> IF I came back as a GSD, I'd think MRL's place would be a wonderful one to land in...
> Mrs K Germany is great that there are rules about breeding and how to contain the dogs. If you gave the dog vitamin D would it make a difference? *What if you lived in shade so the dogs got little sunlight? *
> I wish the US laws were a bit more regimented as far as the breedworthy status went, but that would end up overkill because of the PETA types.


Than you have to provide the light. I am not kidding. According to the law you have to make sure that the dog gets a day and night routine and if they don't get sunlight you have to provide something that is similar to sunlight.


----------



## MaggieRoseLee

onyx'girl said:


> IF I came back as a GSD, I'd think MRL's place would be a wonderful one to land in...





W.Oliver said:


> Please! You do not need to rationalize or justify your circumstance. If I were a dog (some say I am), I'd be happy to wait in your crate for the quality of life you impart on those GSDs the balance of the time available.
> 
> To the OP...rehome the dog, and get a golden. Lets move on.


:wub::wub::wub::wub::wub: :wub::wub::wub::wub::wub:


----------



## onyx'girl

Even with parrots, lighting is very, very important. There is absolutely no regulation for breeding parrots in the US that are on the endangered list ...let alone the dog breeds that are basically overbred. 
As a caretaker to parrots and dogs, I believe in some regulations-but the zealots will have final control and they are usually pretty extreme.


----------



## Korubell

Jax08 said:


> Obviously such a great owner as yourself would never let puppies be unattended where they could get into things that would harm, or kill, them so you should be thankful that you have the life of the unemployed .
> 
> There is nothing abusive about crating a dog. And no AC is going to remove a dog for being crated at night while a puppy and while ppl are at work.
> 
> There is something incredibly stupid about letting your dog run loose to eat things that can kill him/her while they are still to young to know they are supposed to eat everything.
> 
> You should read up on animals that live in dens before shooting from the hip.


Steady on, Jax. No need to raise your hackles. I am fully employed. I wouldn't take on the commitment of a dog unless I had a job. I get up at 5am to walk and play with him for an hour. We go either to the dog park or the local high school field in the dark, where he either chases seagulls or chases my laser light. Then we come home and I get ready for work and have to leave the house at 7.30am, at which time he gets his breakfast. My partner, who is terminally ill with Stage 4 prostate cancer is home with the dog during the day. He (my partner) does leave the house during the day to shop, attend appointments and socialise with his friends, while he still can. During this time the dog is outside in the backyard. Since you seem to have cameras installed on my property and can see all these dangerous things that might kill him, could you point them out to me? 

The garden shed is locked so he can't get into any mischief there. I garden organically anyway, and there's nothing in the shed he can't eat. The garage is locked also, so he can't get in there, either. Other than that, he has free run of 1/4 acre of back yard. He can dig and bury things, he can laze in the sun, he can pick apples off the tree to eat (and he does). He has a bucket of water available at all times, and he doesn't have to lie in his own mess if he doesn't want to. Neither does he have to hold on till he's bursting.

On days when my partner is feeling up to it, he'll walk the dog for 30 minutes or so during the late morning, usually in our local rose gardens, or take him for a paddle in the river that runs through our neighbourhood.

On weekend days he gets 2 x 1 hour walks/runs per day. He visits friends' homes with me, where he gets to play with other dogs, or they bring theirs to my house and the dogs play in the yard.

On weekdays I get home at 5.30pm I take the dog out for another hour or more, either for a long walk, a play with the laser light or a run through a bush reserve near our home. He has the sort of life a dog should have, andnot one that is limited to a 4ft x 4ft cage for my convenience.

Like I said elsewhere, if circumstances were such that I felt a cage necessary, I'd get a different pet, so back off your high horse.


----------



## vomlittlehaus

To the OP....Have you looked into Doggy Day Care?? We have several nice places locally that will even train your puppy for you while in their care. It is just a matter of tiring that pup out. Even if you only took the pup for 2 or 3 days a week. Or if you could do half days most of the week. You wouldnt have to do it for the rest of the dogs life, just untill you get thru this energetic puppy stage. Even look into some local dog trainers that might take on the task. I like the idea of sitting the entire family down and having a discussion about this. Maybe coming up with a schedule for puppy time, homework time, etc. Even if the girls spent 20 mins tossing 3 or 4 different balls around the yard for her, that might tire her enough until an adult gets home to walk her. The older your children, the more responsibilities they can handle.


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## Korubell

[email protected] said:


> Korubell said:
> 
> 
> 
> This response isn't helpful to the OP or to other "normal" people who have to work to provide a good home for family and dog. I just said good bye to a GSD from working lines after 13 years. He was the best dog I ever had and I wouldn't change anything about how we bonded or shared our time. He spent the all day in a very small kennel or a crate in the house.
> 
> I would encourage the OP to consider if he needs to recalibrate his expectations. Yes you have a "working lines" dog, but that doesn't mean that he shouldn't acquire house manners that might reduce some of the stress off the family. If my dog is driving me crazy and I don't have time nor energy for him, I crate him and walk away until I'm of a state of mind where any training or bonding is likely to be more successful. I'd rather him spend an hour in a crate than spend the evening yelling "no, no, no, no".
> 
> The OP should remember that his dog is fortunate to have a considerate owner who wonders if he is doing enough. That is a gift that many dogs don't get. Give yourself a gift and set manageable expectations and see if that gives you a different perspective and allows for you, your family and the dog to adapt.
> 
> Best of luck with your decision.
> 
> 
> 
> @ terrylightfoot: It saddens me that it seems to be the norm for people to get a large, active dog when they don't have an appropriate home environment for it. As I've just mentioned in another reply to someone else, I also work a full day, which involves 2 x 25 minute train commutes each day, to my job in the city.
> 
> I'm sorry you lost your good friend of 13 years, but that is the eventuality that we all, as dog owners, must face sooner or later, and for some reason we tend to put ourselves through it time and again  Buried in my backyard are, amongst other pets, a 15 year old female GS and an 18 year old male. There are also two 19 year old cats, a 25 year old cockatiel, two three year old goldfish, and Poo, my 7 year old mouse.
> 
> I'd really like to know why people here think I don't work.
> 
> I use my walk time with Jet to teach him his manners and every encounter is an opportunity for him to learn. If he gets it wrong, he gets his ruff scruffled and we move on, till we encounter another opportunity. Evenings at home are a wealth of opportunities to teach him more manners, and party tricks, if he's feeling up to it. He learned to shake hands in 10-15 minutes using treats, but he has a mental block when it comes to "rollover". He gets half way then comes back. However, as it's a party trick I'm not pushing it.
> 
> Like you, I also hope the OP can find a happy solution to his unfortunate situation with his dog. I can only imagine what a wrench it is to have to let one go.
> 
> Cheers
Click to expand...


----------



## Jax08

Korubell said:


> Steady on, Jax. No need to raise your hackles. ....
> 
> so back off your high horse.


I have a horse, and he is tall, but I'm not the one screaming abuse. That was you. Pot meet kettle. :shrug:

I guess we'll have to agree to very, very different life styles. My dogs live in my house with us. They are welcome on my bed, my furniture and my lap. Two are sleeping at my husband's feet right now. My GSD is wandering the kitchen. When I leave for work she goes and jumps on my daughters bed to sleep with her until she gets up. Yes, they've all been crated for 16 hours when they were pups while we were working and the kids are in school. But they were safe in my house and I'll do it again. None of our dogs have ever 'laid in their own mess'. Oh look! The 11 year old boxer is in 'her' chair! 

Hmmm...guess my horse is pretty tall...I like it up here. :wild:


----------



## Korubell

JakodaCD OA said:


> korubell: You find the use of a crate disturbing, I guess some of us would find it disturbing that your dog stays outside day and night. never in the house? Never on the furniture? Gosh it just wouldn't be normal if I wasn't picking dog hair out of my food or didn't come across a muddy pawprint on my bed
> 
> And as for 'crating', crates are a wonderful thing especially when you have a 'jaws' for a puppy. I have used a crate on all my puppies for over 12 years now. They LOVE their crates, (even tho they don't use them anymore). I only crate one dog when I am not here, the male aussie who's 9, he is a trouble maker and can't be trusted with the other dogs when no one is here to supervise..
> 
> All my dogs when young , have been crate trained and when they earn the right to not be crated, well they aren't. None of mine get crated at nite, altho masi did for awhile.
> 
> Sure people can abuse a crate use it for the wrong reasons. The majority of people work for a living, so a crate is a necessity when a dog can't be trusted loose in the house and/or safety reasons.
> 
> Whatever works


Hi Jakoda. You assume a lot, as have others who have responded to my posts. I didn't say my dog stays outside all day and night. He has free entry to the house when we're home: after all, it's his home too. He's a real land shark at the moment. He gets quite bitey at times, and he's put on the porch for a 15 second (never longer than that) timeout. When he shows me that he can give me a sit and a down, he earns re-entry to the house. It demonstrates to me that the white noise (or whatever it is) is no longer filling his head, and that he can concentrate on what's being asked of him. Lately, he's taken to grabbing hold og my hand or arm with his teeth, pausing, then looking at me to see if it's ok. Of course it's never ok, so he gets timed out for 15 seconds. When he comes back in, he usually lies next to the couch. Across the living room/hallway door is another favourite spot.

Otherwise you're correct, never on the furniture or beds. In my home they are not appropriate places for dogs. I like people to be able to sit on my furniture without being covered in dog hair. If I wanted my guests covered in dog hair, I'd ask them to sit on the floor


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## Jax08

dawnandjr said:


> To the OP....Have you looked into *Doggy Day Care*?? We have several nice places locally that will even train your puppy for you while in their care. It is just a matter of tiring that pup out. Even if you only took the pup for 2 or 3 days a week. Or if you could do half days most of the week. You wouldnt have to do it for the rest of the dogs life, just untill you get thru this energetic puppy stage. Even *look into some local dog trainers that might take on the task*. I like the idea of sitting the entire family down and having a discussion about this. Maybe coming up with a schedule for puppy time, homework time, etc. *Even if the girls spent 20 mins tossing 3 or 4 different balls around the yard for her*, that might tire her enough until an adult gets home to walk her. The older your children, the more responsibilities they can handle.


This is an excellent idea! And back on topic! Even if you could do it a couple times a week, especially if it's with a trainer so he's learning while he's there.

7 months is a tough age. They are starting to see how far they can bend the rules but are still babies. If you can get through this you'll come out the other end with an incredible friend!

You really can't expect kids to keep up their end of the bargain with taking care of pets. In an ideal world it might work.  But if you sat down with the entire family and set down tasks for everyone to do you might be able to get ahead.

What kind of training do you do? What tools do you use? Have you tried a flirt pole? The girls could use that to play with her.


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## onyx'girl

> every encounter is an opportunity for him to learn. If he gets it wrong, he gets his ruff scruffled and we move on,


Why scruff the ruff if the dog gets it wrong? 
I'd rather give a verbal ack or eh, then re-enforce the command and give a do-over if the dog doesn't understand. Neck scruffs are not real effective if your dog is in the learning mode of a command or behavior. Shuts them down and reduces their confidence in what they are trying to get/learn. Kids are the same, better to give kudo's than crash their ego.


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## selzer

Wow, just wow. 

MRL, I have given my opinion on the crate for many hours vs. the kennel many times. And 99 times out of 100 I would tell people to kennel, BUT this is one of those circumstances where you KNOW that the person will provide leadership, training, exercise, fun, and quality time during the non crated hours -- it is MUCH better than being given full reign of a 1/4 acre plot during the day and being locked in a porch for the night. 

Mrs. K and Korubell, I will for what its worth add my opinion. I think that you are humanizing the dogs a little bit. Korubell, you say you would go nuts if you were stuck in your room for 16 hours. But think, humans sleep for 6-8 hours a day. How many hours a day do dogs sleep? I do not know that it is up to 20, but it is certainly more than 8 hours. 

Being unemployed has given me a huge insight into the life of dogs. They sleep A LOT. I rarely crate dogs during the day. When I bring them in for the night I crate them so I can sleep and not worry about them doing anything seriously dangerous. And just one dog is out with me adding her hair to my bed. But usually my dogs are not crated. When I cannot supervise they are kenneled for their comfort and protection. They can move and stretch and pee and drink and run and they are not alone as each of them are kenneled next to one or more of the others. There is sun and shade and water buckets that cannot dump and houses and shelter in case of rain. 

And during the daytime, they pick their favorite spot and SLEEP. They sleep a lot. Oh they wake up and howl at the train or bark at anyone in the woods out back -- rare occurance. But for the most part they do an awful lot of sleeping. When I have a dog in the house with me, it lays at my feet, or on my bed, or on their recliner and sleep more. 

i think a sixteen hour stretch is too much to ask of any dog, but putting the dogs in the crate at 10pm, letting them out at six AM for potty and feeding, and then crating them at 7:30 when you leave for work. At four thirty when you get home, everyone goes out back to run and play for a while, then back inside while you fix dinner, everyone eats, and then back out for a run in the woods, or off to training class, or up town to the park. At eight pm, everyone crashes in the living room for a while watching tv, and then a final trip outdoors for the night and back in the crate for sleepies. 

dogs that are housetrained may not need to be crated during the night too, but if you have dogs that might fight -- bitches that might, then for everyone's peace of mind it makes sense to just crate one or both. 

When you are not conscious or present, the dog really does not need to be inside your house smelling your pantyhose. They are just fine in their crate or kennel.

Sorry, but there is nothing in my house that my dogs NEED when I am not there. It is less comfortable in my house and much more dangerous to them. For some people, outside kennels would be more dangerous than crates inside. 

Kenneled within a fenced yard is safe. Crated in the house is safe. Left within a 1/4 acre yard however it is fenced, is simply not as safe as the other two choices. There is nothing GOOD about being able to dig. They can dig their way out. They can dig a mud hole. They can injest questionable plants, mushrooms, and grasses. They can be attacked by bees, bitten by snakes, have ticks and fly bites. (I find that kennels on concrete rarely do my dogs get fly strike bites on their ears -- actually never. When I leave them in the grass for a couple of days, they do.) Stupid children will often torment a dog through a fence with a stick. I do NOT leave my dogs loose in my yard when I am not home, I find that much too dangerous.


----------



## BadLieutenant

Jax08 said:


> :thinking:
> 
> Mrs. K - Do you work?
> 
> Maggie said she does...that why she said her pups are crated 8 hours overnight (when they would be sleeping anyways so what is the difference?) and 8 hours while she's working.
> 
> So are you with her or not? Because your post says otherwise. Maybe you should have quoted her instead of me?


are you kidding, Mrs. K working, she averages 3 posts a day. And her comments about it being animal cruelty in Germany to crate a dog??? Some of your video posts of your training would be considered animal cruelty in a lot of people books.


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## Mrs.K

BadLieutenant said:


> are you kidding, Mrs. K working, she averages 3 posts a day. And her comments about it being animal cruelty in Germany to crate a dog??? Some of your video posts of your training would be considered animal cruelty in a lot of people books.


Huh? 
Do you mean that just because I have an average of three posts that I am not working? Some people on here have an average of 12 posts a day and they have a job. 
I can't change the law. Sorry, but crating a dog for 16 hours a day is animal cruelty regarding to German law. I specifically talk about crating!

Plus I personally, could not crate my dogs 16 hours a day. 




> Mrs. K and Korubell, I will for what its worth add my opinion. I think that you are humanizing the dogs a little bit. Korubell, you say you would go nuts if you were stuck in your room for 16 hours. But think, humans sleep for 6-8 hours a day. How many hours a day do dogs sleep? I do not know that it is up to 20, but it is certainly more than 8 hours.


That doesn't mean that they have to be crated. 
I can see very well what my dogs are doing and while they sleep a lot I rather have them outside the crate so they have access to water, can stretch and change their sleeping position from couch to bed and bed to bathroom instead of having to sleep in small crate. 

Again, our culture is different and while dogs are trained to stay in crates we don't crate them like you do it in the US.


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## selzer

Hang on, not everyone in the US crates their dogs all day while they are working and again at night while they are sleeping. I do not. Some people do, and I think it then depends on what is going on with the dog for the remainder of the time. If the remainder of the time, that dog is right in with the family, I think it can work out just fine.


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## Mrs.K

selzer said:


> Hang on, not everyone in the US crates their dogs all day while they are working and again at night while they are sleeping. I do not. Some people do, and I think it then depends on what is going on with the dog for the remainder of the time. If the remainder of the time, that dog is right in with the family, I think it can work out just fine.


No, that is not what I ment. Most people over here don't even use a crate to housebreak puppies. The first time I have ever heard of that was on here and on another US Forum. 

Actually, most people don't even understand how in the world I can have a crate in my apartment at all.


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## BowWowMeow

Maybe a Mod should split off this crate debate into its own thread so that the OP can actually get some advice about his situation????? 

Regarding the OP's dog, I think the dog needs more exercise and mental stimulation, needs to be more fully integrated into the family and I thinkt he idea for giving the dog a job and teaching fun games is a great one. Worked really well for my crazy gsd x mal


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## Korubell

Jax08 said:


> This is an excellent idea! And back on topic! Even if you could do it a couple times a week, especially if it's with a trainer so he's learning while he's there.
> 
> 7 months is a tough age. They are starting to see how far they can bend the rules but are still babies. If you can get through this you'll come out the other end with an incredible friend!
> 
> You really can't expect kids to keep up their end of the bargain with taking care of pets. In an ideal world it might work.  But if you sat down with the entire family and set down tasks for everyone to do you might be able to get ahead.
> 
> What kind of training do you do? What tools do you use? Have you tried a flirt pole? The girls could use that to play with her.


To your suggestion of doggy daycare I would add this recommendation. Ensure the facility has a separate area for pups up to, say, 12-15 months old. The uncontrolled introduction of a pup to an already established 'pack' can have dire consequences for the pup.


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## Korubell

Jax08 said:


> I have a horse, and he is tall, but I'm not the one screaming abuse. That was you. Pot meet kettle. :shrug:
> 
> I guess we'll have to agree to very, very different life styles. My dogs live in my house with us. They are welcome on my bed, my furniture and my lap. Two are sleeping at my husband's feet right now. My GSD is wandering the kitchen. When I leave for work she goes and jumps on my daughters bed to sleep with her until she gets up. Yes, they've all been crated for 16 hours when they were pups while we were working and the kids are in school. But they were safe in my house and I'll do it again. None of our dogs have ever 'laid in their own mess'. Oh look! The 11 year old boxer is in 'her' chair!
> 
> Hmmm...guess my horse is pretty tall...I like it up here. :wild:


As I've posted in other responses, I don't allow animals on human beds, or on the humans' furniture - everyone has a right to their own sleeping space, including my dog. As I type this, it's 3.52 on a rainy Sunday afternoon, my 8 month old GSD has been inside lying by the couch while I've been watching TV and beading. I've just put him out, and I can see him backed up to the back fence, getting a lovely rump scratch from the elderly lady who lives in the next property. He'll stand hours of that if he has to :laugh: But he'll play outside for a while, be fed at 5-5.30 and taken for his walk about an hour and a half after that.


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## selzer

My first GSD was a terror, and as my family never had the breed, I did not have a clue what I was doing. I had a ten week old puppy that was working lines and he was dominant, aggressive, high energy, crazy. I was single, living alone, working full time 1/2 hour west of my home, and going to school full time 1 hour south of my home. 

I did not believe in crates.

I used a baby gate to keep the dog in the kitchen. 

It was a 12'x60' trailer I was renting, and the kitchen was 12'x12'. The kitchen was where my computer desk was set up and my bookcase for my school books as well as everything to do with food and cooking and eating. 

By the time the pup was 4 months old, he was taking everything in my kitchen that was not nailed down and herding it into a pile in the middle of the floor, chewing a bit of everything, and pottying there too. Every day I came home and lost my mind. The poor puppy!

One day he crashed through the baby gate and ATE MY COUCH! 

I then put him outside on a chain with a dog house. And a water bowl. Every day he ran around and around making a round wallow of mud. Sometimes he was mud from the tip of his snout to the end of his tail. I would look at him and sigh. It was NOT working out. 

At eighteen months old, the dog got run over by a truck. The truck aimed at him and sped up, but it was my fault, the dog had broken his chain and ran into the street. My neighbors called me and told me, and we took him to the vet. He shattered his femur. They told me it would cost 2000$ to put a rod in his leg. I did not have the money. I was barely surviving and trying to finish school. 

The vet told me it would heal. To get a crate big enough for him to stand up, lay down, and turn around in. She told me to leave him in it for eight weeks, letting him out twice a day to potty. The dog was crated 23.5 hours per day on my porch -- weather was nice. 

The dog did not go crazy, he was hurt yes, but he was on pain meds and he was healing. He NEVER minded the crate and always went right in when I told him to for the rest of his life. If it was so cruel, than he would most likely have hesitated or not wanted to go in it. But no. He liked it just fine. 

When the weather got bad again, I put the crate in my living room. And he was fine all day crated while I was at work. He usually slept with me and was out of the crate whenever I was home. Before long he had the run of my house and was only crated when visitors were over -- that was his safe place and he was perfectly fine in there.

Frodo was never the model canine citizen. I made every mistake in the book with him, did not train, did not socialize. And he had a lot of trouble with the leg. His fuse was shorter and shorter, and eventually I ended up having to put him down.

I had him for 7.5 years. Six of those years were a whole lot better because I crated him. Had I crated him in the first place, maybe he would have never been hit by a truck, and may have been ok to take to training, etc. My may have had a better and longer life.


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## Korubell

Mrs.K said:


> Huh?
> Do you mean that just because I have an average of three posts that I am not working? Some people on here have an average of 12 posts a day and they have a job.
> I can't change the law. Sorry, but crating a dog for 16 hours a day is animal cruelty regarding to German law. I specifically talk about crating!
> 
> Plus I personally, could not crate my dogs 16 hours a day.
> 
> 
> That doesn't mean that they have to be crated.
> I can see very well what my dogs are doing and while they sleep a lot I rather have them outside the crate so they have access to water, can stretch and change their sleeping position from couch to bed and bed to bathroom instead of having to sleep in small crate.
> 
> Again, our culture is different and while dogs are trained to stay in crates we don't crate them like you do it in the US.


Like Mrs K I am not in the US. I'm in the southern hemisphere. Down here we tend to live a little closer to nature. We tolerate a few muddy paw prints on the kitchen floor on a rainy day. We accept that if we have a new puppy in the house some things might get damaged, and it's not the end of the world.

Tomorrow I will check with the RNZSPCA and get their line on what I think is excessive crating. Yes I understand crating for transport purposes, particularly public transport, and yes I understand crating (or confinement) to aid recovery after a major injury. However there is no way I would crate a dog for my convenience. Neither would I own a dog if I had to live in an apartment, it's just craziness and unfair to the dog. I have taken a dog into my home and therefore it is my responsibility to understand its requirements. I don't consider it the dog's duty to stay confined to a 4ft x 4ft (or smaller) crate for hours on end purely as a measure of convenience. 

I reiterate that if my circumstances were such that my home environment was unsuitable for a dog's needs then I wouldn't have one, I'd have a pet more suited to confinement; parrot, guinea pig, rabbit, whatever, but not a dog.

In case anyone wonders where I'm coming from, I've owned domestic pets for 49 of my 51 years.


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## Korubell

W.Oliver said:


> This thread has evolved from helping a guy make a decision about rehoming a GSD that dosen't fit his lifestyle to an anthropomorphic condemnation of crates from a gal who dosen't even let her GSD in the house....really? My crated dog sleeps in my bed. My wife and I are shopping for a king size bed, as we're expecting a puppy this winter....so we'll need to upgrade from the queen size once Itzakat is paroled from crate training!:laugh:


Read much? This 'gal' has a dog that has free run of the entire property, indoors, outdoors, where ever he wants to go at appropriate times. If you read some of my other responses you'll have seen that. He's indoors when he wants to be and outdoors when he wants to be. In short, I let him live the life of a dog, not some status symbol that's brought out merely for my entertainment. If that's what people want though, then why not get a teddy bear. I understand some of them are quite interactive these days.

I have no idea where people got the impression my dog lives his entire life outdoors. Selective reading, perhaps?


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## Korubell

onyx'girl said:


> Why scruff the ruff if the dog gets it wrong?
> I'd rather give a verbal ack or eh, then re-enforce the command and give a do-over if the dog doesn't understand. Neck scruffs are not real effective if your dog is in the learning mode of a command or behavior. Shuts them down and reduces their confidence in what they are trying to get/learn. Kids are the same, better to give kudo's than crash their ego.


You clearly didn't understand what I mean. My dog is a long coat GS, 8 months old. Therefore he has a 'ruff', or a 'mane'. When he gets something wrong a ruff scruffle is when I rub both hands in his ruff/around his neck area and call him my goofy doofus, usually with a kiss to the top of his head and a chuckle. It's not a reprimand, it's not a correction. It's an acknowledgement that he's young and won't get everything right first time.

When I'm training a new command he doesn't get ruff scruffles. His failure/lapse/call it what you may, gets ignored and we try the manouvre again. He tells me when he's had enough, so we go outside and play instead, usually, but not always, with the bubble blower, or tug of war with his rope.


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## Korubell

selzer said:


> Sorry, but there is nothing in my house that my dogs NEED when I am not there. It is less comfortable in my house and much more dangerous to them. For some people, outside kennels would be more dangerous than crates inside.
> 
> Kenneled within a fenced yard is safe. Crated in the house is safe. Left within a 1/4 acre yard however it is fenced, is simply not as safe as the other two choices. There is nothing GOOD about being able to dig. They can dig their way out. They can dig a mud hole. They can injest questionable plants, mushrooms, and grasses. They can be attacked by bees, bitten by snakes, have ticks and fly bites. (I find that kennels on concrete rarely do my dogs get fly strike bites on their ears -- actually never.  When I leave them in the grass for a couple of days, they do.) Stupid children will often torment a dog through a fence with a stick. I do NOT leave my dogs loose in my yard when I am not home, I find that much too dangerous.


Selzer, like you there is nothing in my house that my dog needs when I'm not there. I'm not in North America so there are no dangerous animals to beware of, no snakes, poisonous spiders, racoons, wild cats, wolverines or large birds of prey. We do have a native hawk, but they're not big enough to carry off an 84lb pup. My backyard IS safe. I've owned domestic pets all my life. I also have friends who visit with small children - the yard is as safe for them as it is for the dog. I garden but don't grow anything poisonous: why would I? 

I guess what I'm saying is there there are more ways of life than just the North American way.


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## kiya

My girl Lakota is 7-1/2 months, I feel I don't spend as much time training as I would like. We go to group obedience classes 1x a week. I take her out every morning with my bicycle, not sure about the distance maybe 1-1/2 miles. When we get back I do a short session of commands. Then I let the 2 older dogs out and rush off to work. I am fortunate enough to be able to leave my dogs outside during the day. When the weather doesn't permit them to be out, Lakota is confined to the kitchen, the big dogs are free in the house. My husband and I have no kids, my dogs are my kids. When I come home from work, by the time I feed the 2 horses (a senior and a lunitic), spend a few minutes playing with the 3 dogs, my husband starts dinner otherwise we would eat at 10pm, I feed the dogs, clean up, there really isn't time for much else. By 9pm I can finally sit down and relax for an hour before I go to bed wake up at 5am and start all over again.
I don't know what her pedigree is, she was an opps/on purpose litter and I can only hope that she will turn out good. 
Now that she is 7-1/2 months old shes definately maturing and behaving much better. She still steals like a thief, annoys the cats, but overall she is settling down and I am very happy how shes turning out so far. 
Maybe I got lucky, maybe its because I had GSD pups before and knew what to expect. Maybe because the 2 older dogs I have helped.
Im sorry to read about people having a hard time with thier pups so I hope to give a little positive perspective, I did have my doubts a few months ago she was a little land shark like all the others for sure. Never made a mark on me like some that I have heard. I wish you luck whatever you decide to do with your pup.


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## JakodaCD OA

Carolyn, I agree, when dogs are younger they sure can be trying and take up alot of time. Frustration mounts on all sides. Hanging in there, most times, when the dogs is older and more settled, you forget about all that frustration and annoying puppy days


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## W.Oliver

Korubell,

I don't care where you live, I could care even less how you rationalize leaving your GSD unsupervised in a yard. What bothers me is how amazingly uninformed you are, and that you spread your anthropomorphic views here as if safely crating a denning animal is cruel as compared to your Pollyanna approach of leaving your dog unsupervised in the yard. 

Look at this string of defensive posts, you've just made....the common theme is that everyone else is wrong, and you are right....really?










I hope you don't chain or even have a collar the dog while you leave your beloved pet unsupervised in the backyard. Many dogs are injured or killed that way while attempting to get over a fence. Of course if you don't have a collar on the dog, and it does escape, there would be no identification...unless you microchip?

There was a thread not too long ago about that very topic, maybe someone can post the link for you to read about the risks of leaving your dog unsupervised in what appears to be a safe backyard.

The only thing I find more impressive than your lack of insight on GSDs is your lack of horticultural knowlege "I garden but don't grow anything poisonous: why would I?" Again, I have to ask, really? You really don't know that many common ornimental plants are toxic? Please go to your yard and eat some lily of the valley, or munch a daffodil bulb for me and report back.

What you have accomplished for me and so many of the folks here is that you are another that can simply be ignored.


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## doggiedad

when you don't see all of the time
you have to put into a dog as hard work
you totally have won the battle. when
you put in the necessary time to train
and socialize it's a sacrifice but the end product
is such a reward.

from 9 weeks old to 1.5 years old seemed
like most time and sacrifice i had to put in.
after a 1.5 yrs. old my dog was well trained
and highly socialized. 

my GF and i sacrificed to have a nice dog. my neighbors, family and all of those people i encountered on the street sacrificed also. i was always calling on people to come over, to meet here or there, asking people on the street to pet my dog or asking people to call
my dog when were working on stay.

"it takes a whole village to raise a child (Hilary Clinton) and it takes a whole society to raise a pup".

time spent x's sacrifice = great dog. 



Mrs.K said:


> High Impact,
> 
> 
> experienced owners know how much work a German Shepherd is but at the same time we forgot how much work it really is.
> 
> I don't even recognize it as hard work,
> 
> even though I have to adult dogs and one puppy that is pretty much the same age as yours.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qfu0Fm9VyeQ&feature=channel
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqeID2GKVsQ&feature=channel


----------



## Mrs.K

W.Oliver said:


> Korubell,
> 
> I don't care where you live, I could care even less how you rationalize leaving your GSD unsupervised in a yard. What bothers me is how amazingly uninformed you are, and that you spread your anthropomorphic views here as if safely crating a denning animal is cruel as compared to your Pollyanna approach of leaving your dog unsupervised in the yard.
> 
> Look at this string of defensive posts, you've just made....the common theme is that everyone else is wrong, and you are right....really?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hope you don't chain or even have a collar the dog while you leave your beloved pet unsupervised in the backyard. Many dogs are injured or killed that way while attempting to get over a fence. Of course if you don't have a collar on the dog, and it does escape, there would be no identification...unless you microchip?
> 
> There was a thread not too long ago about that very topic, maybe someone can post the link for you to read about the risks of leaving your dog unsupervised in what appears to be a safe backyard.
> 
> The only thing I find more impressive than your lack of insight on GSDs is your lack of horticultural knowlege "I garden but don't grow anything poisonous: why would I?" Again, I have to ask, really? You really don't know that many common ornimental plants are toxic? Please go to your yard and eat some lily of the valley, or munch a daffodil bulb for me and report back.
> 
> What you have accomplished for me and so many of the folks here is that you are another that can simply be ignored.



Whoa, harsh words. 

What Korubell describes is pretty much the way of thinking of average dog owners over here. Very european. 

Just because a dog COULD hang itself, doesn't mean that it'll ever happen. Do you stop driving around just because some idiot under the influence could crash into you?

At my parents place there are usually four dogs running around. There JRT's and one German Shepherd. The place is so big that they roam around free everywhere and sometimes we don't even know where they are at. However, in all these years we've never had an accident. 

We never had an accident where a dog choked or hanged himself to death. We never kept a dog leashed, they are either kenneled, in the dog run or free to roam around or in the house. We never had a dog at all that hung himself, never a dog that got run over by a car. Never a dog that bit somebody else and never a dog that even had cancer. I don't know how people manage that to happen and our dogs always wear their collars and we never had any dog that ever ate something poisonous either and my parents owned dogs long before we were born. 

I can't even imagine crating a dog just for the sole purpose that he doesn't get into an accident. Jesus Christ people... one can love their dog to death. Seriously, if I had a yard and a house my dogs would be free to get in and out as they wish too as long as I think the place is safe enough for them.

Honestly, why are you people even leaving the house if you are so scared that something might happen. And just because it happened to the neighbors dog doesn't mean it'll ever happen to my dogs. 

There are better ways than crating!


----------



## bianca

Korubell said:


> Like Mrs K I am not in the US. I'm in the southern hemisphere. Down here we tend to live a little closer to nature. We tolerate a few muddy paw prints on the kitchen floor on a rainy day. We accept that if we have a new puppy in the house some things might get damaged, and it's not the end of the world.
> 
> Tomorrow I will check with the RNZSPCA and get their line on what I think is excessive crating. Yes I understand crating for transport purposes, particularly public transport, and yes I understand crating (or confinement) to aid recovery after a major injury. However there is no way I would crate a dog for my convenience. Neither would I own a dog if I had to live in an apartment, it's just craziness and unfair to the dog. I have taken a dog into my home and therefore it is my responsibility to understand its requirements. I don't consider it the dog's duty to stay confined to a 4ft x 4ft (or smaller) crate for hours on end purely as a measure of convenience.
> 
> I reiterate that if my circumstances were such that my home environment was unsuitable for a dog's needs then I wouldn't have one, I'd have a pet more suited to confinement; parrot, guinea pig, rabbit, whatever, but not a dog.
> 
> In case anyone wonders where I'm coming from, I've owned domestic pets for 49 of my 51 years.


 
I am a New Zealander also (lived there for 33 years) and I crate my dog. I think that for whatever reason crating is quite unheard of in the general population this way (Aus/NZ). Very few 'dog people' I talk to here understand the concept. I had never heard of such a thing until my breeder recommended it for this pup. I am so pleased I followed her advice. Molly sleeps in her crate at night and if I am out during the day (and NO I do not work so she isn't alone for long). I have a fully fenced yard and it is big but I do not leave her out when I am not home. 

My old Rotti/Lab R.I.P had the most beautiful gentle nature with anything and everyone but she was around 5 years old and had to stay at the vets for the day. They went to put her in a cage/crate and apparently she freaked. They finally got her in. Three times they tried to take blood from her and the last time she bit the vet. I was so p***ed off that they tried that many times (should have called me to go in as it was not an emergency) but she had been to this same vet all her life and they loved her. After that she was always muzzled there.

My point after this long and rambling story is that If I had known about crate training back then, perhaps this never would have been such an issue for either her or the poor vet (It was a fairly ugly bite). I am a crate convert for life as I know my girl is safe when I cannot watch her.


----------



## vat

It sounds like your doing everything right but just now learning how much energy a GSD can have. I tell you once you can get past this stage you will have the best dog ever!

The one thing that kept me sane is my last 2 pups went to doggie daycare 1 day a week. They would come home so tired it was like having the house to yourself, lol. And often time they would still have what I called a hang over the next day.

Look for a reputable one near you, make sure they screen all dogs for temperment before they let them. Make sure there is at least one trainer there that knows what they are doing, you do not want any fighting going on and they must also have zero tolerance for bad dogs!


----------



## W.Oliver

Mrs.K said:


> There are better ways than crating!


 Totally agree. I am fortunate, in that I generally don't have to crate, as someone is home most of the time with my mature dog. There are exceptions, and the practice we follow is to crate when every happens to be gone. Having said that, if I had to crate while I was away at work, for instance, the better way I would prefer is a kennel (indoor/outdoor run). Which is not to say I would raise a kennel dog.



Mrs.K said:


> What Korubell describes is pretty much the way of thinking of average dog owners over here. Very european.


Lets say for sake of discussion, I am being culturally insensitive, and I should appreciate how the Europeans or others in general do things.......OK.



Korubell said:


> ......I hear of dogs being put in crates for any reason other than air travel. If I were shoved in a crate for hours on end I'd be hard to handle too.


If A=B and B=C, then B must equal C. Why if you're from one culture, would you go to a site that is predominately of another culture, and asult the social mores of that group? The ironic thing here, it that is the typical American thing to do...so the equation seems a bit reversed....interesting. 



Mrs.K said:


> Just because a dog COULD hang itself, doesn't mean that it'll ever happen. Do you stop driving around just because some idiot under the influence could crash into you?


Here I agree as well...I walk my dog off leash on hikes with no E-collar. I assume the risk for quality of life.


----------



## GSDLoverII

Don't know if somebody already suggested it, but, how about a treadmill?
That's what Caesar Milan always recommends.


----------



## Jax08

Remember this guy?



High Impact said:


> The entire family is extremely frustrated with our 7 month old German Shepherd and the amount of time that is required for us to responsibly care and train for this type of dog. I never dreamt the intensity of the drive of this type of animal. I love Zoot but reluctantly I am getting very close to thinking I may need to find a new home for her. My wife is frustrated at the amount of additional cleaning required, the children (ages 9, 12 and 15) can’t handle her nor have they fulfilled their end of the agreement we had as a family to commit to working with a German Shepherd. I have found a daily routine that calms her down to a tolerable level and it resembles this: Get up early (before kids) shower, take zoot out, walk her “at least” one mile, make sure she poops, play Frisbee, go through training routine of sitz, plotz, a few recalls, foose, etc…, brush fur, bring in house on lead, close doors to all rooms, serve food and water, she drinks some, she either waits or chases kids and doesn’t eat for at least 15 – 20 minutes while I wait around for her. After she finally eats she usually goes out and then gets crated or comes to my office with me. Now that the kids are in school if she gets crated she is in there until at least 3:30 in the afternoon. When girls get home they take her out and then usually crate her again because they can’t handle her energy and playfulness. She is usually ready to freak out when my wife or I get home. When I have meetings at night (which is often) my wife is forced to care for zoot as well as cook supper, laundry and do homework with kids. My wife is at her wits end and I have evening meetings often. If I am home early/mid evening I feed her and then take her for another long walk and play Frisbee (she loves Frisbee). I finally get to eat while she goes in her crate, after I am done I help whatever homework couldn’t be figured out from earlier and then spend all evening with zoot babysitting her while she is out of her crate. She usually turns into a crazy maniac at night, sometime between 8pm – 10pm. So I will either work her in the house or take her out to play or for a late night walk. On top of this exhausting schedule she continues to nip the kids when she gets excited. She was doing so well for a while but then the kids went back to school and everything changed. I believe that she is beginning to suffer from a slight case of separation anxiety and sometimes we come home to a crate and dog covered in urine. (I have another thread for advice on working with that issue)
> 
> I don’t know what else to do. My family has been taxed emotionally, physically and financially by me trying to own my dream dog – a personal protection German Shepherd. I think at this stage of life it may simply be too much for us. I don’t want to give her up but I see no other solution at this time. My trainer recommended maybe building a small dog run in the garage to periodically place her in when we don’t have time or when we leave for long hours. I don’t know if this is a good option. Please make a recommendation if there is something you see we are missing.
> 
> Thank you in advance to all of you for your wonderful suggestions. ;-)


----------



## JKlatsky

We crate all out dogs in the house- 4 out of the 5 for at least 16 hours. Everyone has a XL 48" or XXL 54" crate. They can all stretch in their crates, turn around, move, get water, chew on their crate toys, or sleep (which is pretty what they do). I have 2 males that would like to kill each other. They are also my 2 dogs that would otherwise be able to be loose in the house without fear of destruction. They have to both be crated or out of sight of each other otherwise they do nothing but bark at each other and I would hate to think of what might happen if the one who was crated managed to break out. When my female goes into heat, everyone also needs to be crated because testosterone runs a little high. Crating is part of my dog's life. So is training and conditioning though too. 

Down here in Florida, which is comparable to a tropical rain forest...I would NEVER leave my dogs outside during most of the year. First it's unbearably hot and humid and we live in the lightening capital of the world. They certainly wouldn't run around. They would hide in the shade and pant. Or they would wallow in the pool and get some kind of skin condition from being wet all the time in a humid climate renowned for it's mold growth and bug population. There are many poisonous snakes here in addition to the dangerous microbes. People wouldn't live in Florida if it wasn't for air conditioning. So my dogs stay inside in their crates in the AC. People in my area do poison dogs that they don't like or on houses they plan to invade, steal dogs for fighting rings or to sell, etc. We do have a kennel outside on cement that I will rotate my dogs through in the cooler months...but it's completely unable to be seen unless you are in the yard which is a 6ft Privacy fenced yard with a padlock on the gate and there is also a padlock on the kennel. 

And I really don't think being in a kennel makes my dogs any more manageable. It's not like they think to themselves- Great! I have room to run around now! I think it's more like- Hey my person's not here...I'll go back to sleep. Have you seen dogs in larger kennels (6+ dogs)- like shelters, boarding facilities, even breeding operations? It creates hysteria. Feeding time and everyone freaks out, someone gets let out and everyone is climbing the walls. My 4 dogs raised from puppies and crated in the house all patiently wait their turns with no where near the screaming wackiness of the dog I got from a kennel situation. 

And yes I consider myself to be a far more competent and caring dog owner than my neighbors who leave their dogs in their yards. I cannot even begin to tell you how many dogs I've seen loose on our street, how many Lost dog signs I've seen. The reality here in suburbia is that dogs left out without supervision escape from their 6 foot privacy fenced yards. My dogs are trained regualrly, mentally stimulated, well fed, in good condition. Ideal? No. If I could have some kind of doggy ranch that would be great, but that's simply not my situation. 


For the OP- It's not easy. It's hard. Especially as you wait for everything to come together. Depending on the dog...but usually by 2 they settle down. 6-16 months I think is usually the hardest. It is very hard for people who are intimidated by the dog and the energy level to want to interact with it. 2 ball for 30 minutes can really take the edge off. You have to play smarter and not harder. Think of ways to maximize the running and the energy release in the amount of time you have. I agree that feeding from puzzle toys in the crate might also really help.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Korubell said:


> Like Mrs K I am not in the US. I'm in the southern hemisphere. Down here we tend to live a little closer to nature. We tolerate a few muddy paw prints on the kitchen floor on a rainy day. *We accept that if we have a new puppy in the house some things might get damaged, and it's not the end of the world*.


Well, for the puppy it can be. It's not just about convenience and potential damage to your possessions - if the puppy ingests whatever they chew up they can get an intestinal blockage and require expensive life saving surgery. 

Rather than explaining over and over again how you're not in North America and that attitudes are different where you live perhaps you could edit your profile to include your location. I'm sure most people understand that cultural attitudes vary around the world, but how would they know what the prevailing attitude is if they don't know where you live and how things are generally done there? 

As others have pointed out there are many reasons for getting your puppy accustomed to being confined to a crate, even if you don't plan on keeping it there for long periods of time, including to facilitate house-training, or if you plan to travel with your pets, or they may need to be left at the vets for any period of time.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

High Impact said:


> My trainer recommended maybe building a small dog run in the garage to periodically place her in when we don’t have time or when we leave for long hours. I don’t know if this is a good option.


That's what we do and I think it's a fine idea. Since I crate at night I prefer not to crate during the day, so we have a 6 x 8 chain link enclosure in our garage. It has a dog door to an outside run down the length of the house that is separately gated on each end from the rest of the yard, which is surrounded by a 6+ foot wood fence. Nobody can see into the run and the dogs can't see out, and I'm sure they spend most of the time on their beds in the garage anyway but they can let themselves out to potty if necessary. Our weather here is not too hot or too cold so it's a good solution for us.

I agree with everyone else that GSD puppies can be very challenging and that what you're dealing with is pretty normal. Some of mine have been much easier than others, but we've definitely been where you are with the frustration and exhaustion. Each time I get a puppy I think maybe it's my last - I'm not sure I can go through that again! :rofl: Puppies are about 50% fun and 50% hard work, but it does get easier. 

I think rather than trying to constantly exercise exercise exercise her to burn off all that energy it's good to teach her to settle down and chill out too. You do need to adapt your daily schedule to accommodate the needs of your puppy, but she also needs to adapt herself to the schedule of your household. I do not have time to exercise my dogs in the morning before work, so I've never done that and they've done just fine, even Halo, our first working line puppy. She's a wild and crazy girl but has no trouble settling down and doing nothing around the house. Is that because I've never catered to my dogs by entertaining them constantly and I expect them to entertain themselves sometimes? I have no idea, but I've had 5 GSDs of varying personalities and all of them have adapted to life with us. They get time on the weekends to run and play and swim until they're exhausted but because we have a tiny yard they don't get much of that during the week since we have to take them someplace else to do it. I'm sure they would love to do it every day, but that's just not possible. 

That high energy period you'd seeing in the evening is very typical, and it's like a toddler throwing a tantrum - you can't reason them out of it or just give them something else to do and expect that to work. At that point I'd usually just crate for a little while and give myself and puppy a chance to cool our jets a bit and then bring her out and try again later. They'll usually cry for a bit and then settle down for a nap. After the break everyone will feel better and you can bring her out and play or train for awhile before bed. 

There are going to be times when you and your wife need to get things done and can't be constantly supervising her and that's just the way it is, so don't feel guilty about putting her away for awhile. Dogs have very high sleep needs, as much as 17 hours a day, so as long as you're giving her plenty of play/train time throughout the day it's not going to hurt her to be crated for an hour or two while your wife cooks dinner and you're all eating, or for some quiet time while the kids do their homework. 

Bully sticks are also lifesavers for keeping you sane with a new puppy.


----------



## BlackPuppy

For the OP and the original topic. Puppies are a lot of work. Period. It gets better. Also, some people have experienced crazier dogs when they feed them kibble. So, check the food and consider some raw supplements if you haven't already. 

My first dog was about 4 when I got him. When I got a puppy, boy was I in over my head! I thought I knew what to expect, but she was CRAZY! She's 5 years old now and still active, but much easier to live with. 

RE: Crating.

Boaz is now 8 months old and has graduated from the crate to the kitchen. By 18 months my dogs have free roam of the house unless there's an illness.


----------



## PaddyD

Apparently you let your dream override your family responsibilities. GSDs are active, intelligent, demanding dogs. Their puppihood can be extremely challenging, even to someone with the time, energy and patience to help them through it. Many were the times that we considered finding a home for our little girl, but having endured has shown us that we were right to keep her. They can be real brats but they can also become GREAT dogs.
Getting one for personal protection in a family setting ( I believe) is a huge mistake. A family GSD should be of sound, calm temperament and accepting of all situations and people. As for the nipping, although unacceptable, it's normal as long as you correct it
constantly and consistently ...... it should gradually pass. My dog was/is mouthy but she know it is wrong and will take correction.
If you do give up, make sure the next owner has the time, patience and energy to give your dog the life it deserves.


----------



## PaddyD

Debbie had a much better response than mine. Good perspective. And yes, you gotta love that crate!!!


----------



## Jelpy

PaddyD said:


> Apparently you let your dream override your family responsibilities....


Oh Lord, I apologize. I don't believe that last post is typical of the kind of treatment you'll usually get from folks around here. I think you're doing the right thing by seeking advice and fielding suggestions. I do NOT get the impression that this was an impulse buy or that you were irresponsible. I think you simply discovered that life is getting in the way, and that can happen to anyone. 

I hope some of the suggestions you are receiving are useful to you. 

Jelpy


----------



## Korubell

W.Oliver said:


> Korubell,
> 
> I don't care where you live, I could care even less how you rationalize leaving your GSD unsupervised in a yard. What bothers me is how amazingly uninformed you are, and that you spread your anthropomorphic views here as if safely crating a denning animal is cruel as compared to your Pollyanna approach of leaving your dog unsupervised in the yard.
> 
> Look at this string of defensive posts, you've just made....the common theme is that everyone else is wrong, and you are right....really?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hope you don't chain or even have a collar the dog while you leave your beloved pet unsupervised in the backyard. Many dogs are injured or killed that way while attempting to get over a fence. Of course if you don't have a collar on the dog, and it does escape, there would be no identification...unless you microchip?
> 
> There was a thread not too long ago about that very topic, maybe someone can post the link for you to read about the risks of leaving your dog unsupervised in what appears to be a safe backyard.
> 
> The only thing I find more impressive than your lack of insight on GSDs is your lack of horticultural knowlege "I garden but don't grow anything poisonous: why would I?" Again, I have to ask, really? You really don't know that many common ornimental plants are toxic? Please go to your yard and eat some lily of the valley, or munch a daffodil bulb for me and report back.
> 
> What you have accomplished for me and so many of the folks here is that you are another that can simply be ignored.


 W. Oliver, for goodness sake, let's leave the over-sensationalising and violins out of it. As it happens my horticultural knowledge is far better than your spelling, but that's by the by. I certainly do have ornamentals in my garden, including the two you mentioned  They're planted at the front of the house where the dog can't get them. Dogs being walked along the street can't get them either, unless they scale the fence to do so, then all bets are off as the owner hasn't exercised proper control of their dog. I reiterate that I garden organically, and some 'natural' products/remedies are as toxic as any, (pyrethrum, for example) and that's why I weed a lot - because I won't use toxins or herbicides in the garden exactly BECAUSE of the pets. At the midway point on my side boundaries I have fences from the boundary to the house - with gates - so that my dog is confined to my backyard. I do feel people should be able to knock on my front door without running the gauntlet with a young, rambunctious pup. Therefore I have designed or altered my property accordingly.

When I say my yard is safe, I mean it's safe. Do you even know the meaning of the word, or is your definition of safe fluid? When I say it's safe, it's safe.

Microchipping: It's compulsory here and very low cost. 

Chaining/collaring: I have said earlier that when I'm gardening I will chain my dog *IF* he's being an obstruction. Most times he isn't and just wanders and plays while I work. Sometimes he's right behind me digging up what I just planted, bless him, or dragging my prunings around the lawn. But he's young, so if he gets into mischief while my hands are busy with spades and pruning saws I chain him and he is always in my line of sight. Seriously, do you think all owners are as negligent as your countrymen? We're not, but thanks for the heads up.

If you follow some of my other posts you will see that I recommended to someone not to leave a leash trailing behind a dog left outside alone. We're on the same page with that. If my dog is chained or leashed it's because almost all the time I'm attached to the other end: we're out walking etc. If he's chained he's in my eye line. When I've finished gardening he'll usually come inside with me and want to play a game, or lie on the bedroom floor and watch while I bake and do other chores.

Escaping: Dogs 'escape' because owners are negligent. I've owned 6 dogs during my life, all of them very long-lived and none has ever escaped. Why? Well, I don't know how many times I have to say it, but here goes again: my property is safe (that also means secure)

Here's a tip I offer to all dog owners. When we're out walking I attach a carabiner to the handle-loop end of my dog's leash. If we decide to sit somewhere to watch a kid's football game for 15 minutes, as we did on Saturday, the carabiner allows me to loop his leash around a leg or a slat of the parkbench and using the carabiner clip it back onto the lead, thereby securing him but without ever having to unclip the leash from the dog. He happily lies between my feet watching the football and is right there with me, and it allows me to be hands-free so I can use a camera etc. So you see, I don't just take it for granted that he'll stay put when I unclip his leash in public. Assuming so is how dogs 'escape'.

Crates: I've never used a crate for a dog and plan never to use one. When my pup gets up from a nap he stretches. Although he's only 8 months old, when he stretches his spine after a sleep he measures nearly 6 ft from nose to hock. There is no way on earth I would confine him to a crate where he couldn't do this. The stretch is necessary to warm up the spinal fluid and flex his muscles, but you go right ahead and prevent your dog from doing this if you think it's better.


----------



## Jax08

Hey Wayne!! Need to borrow my horse? 










I can't spell either...but I can add so that makes up for it. :rofl:


----------



## Ruthie

I really have to comment on the whole "I wouldn't want to be in a crate..." thing. You are not a dog! DOGS ARE NOT PEOPLE!

Now to the OP...
It sounds like the first thing that you need to decide is if the whole family is committed to this dog. As you have now realize, puppies are not easy to raise, especially the high energy variety. If you and your wife get on the same page, and you decide to keep the puppy, here are some suggestions.

- Go home at lunch time to let the puppy out, if you work too far away, hire someone to do it. Potty and exercise. 8 -9 hours is too long for a 7 mo old to be in a crate IMO. 
- You mentioned that your daughters can't handle the dog's energy. For kids to not want to deal with a dog, I would guess that the dog is behaving badly. You mentioned the nipping. You need to stop it! If your dog doesn't respect your kids, the behavior is only going to get worse. Since you want her to be a PPD, you don't want to correct her for the biting, but you need to redirect to something else and teach your kids to also. 
- It sounds like she is getting a good amount of physical exercise, but maybe she could use some more mental exercise. If you haven't started obedience training, get started. 2 - 3 10 minute sessions of obedience practice per night will work wonders and will be better than an additional walk. It would also be a great way to get the kids involved and help the pup see them as "in charge".
- Get some food or puzzle games for her. It is great for the puppy to learn that she can play by herself and not be a maniac. Just keep in mind that you still need to keep an eye on her. For example: Give her a kong with her dinner on the floor next to you while you watch TV, or a busy cube while you eat dinner.

And...as others have said, if you can't get the family all on the same page to put in the work with this dog, re-home her now.


----------



## W.Oliver

Korubell said:


> ....As it happens my horticultural knowledge is far better than your spelling, but that's by the by.


Touche'


----------



## MaggieRoseLee

Korubell , it would be a HUGE help if you'd add your general location to your User CP. It will show up on each and every post and it does make responses easier. It'll show up under your avatar (like where my Poconos thing is...)


----------



## bianca

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Korubell , it would be a HUGE help if you'd add your general location to your User CP. It will show up on each and every post and it does make responses easier. It'll show up under your avatar (like where my Poconos thing is...)


I'm assuming New Zealand as he/she mentioned RNZSPCA?


----------



## MaggieRoseLee

bianca said:


> I'm assuming New Zealand as he/she mentioned RNZSPCA?


Thanks bianca, but it helps all of us when we post if we can make it a permanent part of our avatar/info stuff. Huge difference in suggestions and recommendations if I know you live 1 hour away...............or 1/2 a world!


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## Cassidy's Mom

> RNZSPCA


I would have had absolutely no idea what that meant if someone hadn't said.


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## crisp

WOW!!! Thanks to this thread, I've found out that I'm a horrible dog owner for being an immigrant, and for now living in the US. Thank you all for over-generalising your comments which are just OPINIONS. This whole argument is ridiculous. You are comparing methods of captivity and calling them more humane. We are still talking about animals right? I'm surprised no one said that dogs can't be contained in a house because it violates their animal rights. From the sound of it, all your dogs are doing better than perfect in the conditions they were brought up in, so what are we arguing about. If you can't admit that there are benefits and drawbacks for and against crating, then you are too pig headed to make any type of logical argument anyway. The goal here is to help eachother and mainly the person who started the thread. Or, is anyone actually insinuating, that the crate training the OP practices is the cause of the problem? 

I'm sorry for the rant, but this thread has become very personal and is rather upsetting. 

Now, if you excuse me, I'm going to put a lake in my back yard because my fish are not being treated humanely in their fish tank.


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## Jelpy

crisp said:


> Now, if you excuse me, I'm going to put a lake in my back yard because my fish are not being treated humanely in their fish tank.


:spittingcoffee:

Jelpy


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## selzer

Several pages ago, someone mentioned bicycling with a seven month old puppy? Is that right???? 

Does this make anyone else nervous???


----------



## Mrs.K

crisp said:


> WOW!!! Thanks to this thread, I've found out that I'm a horrible dog owner for being an immigrant, and for now living in the US. Thank you all for over-generalising your comments which are just OPINIONS. This whole argument is ridiculous. You are comparing methods of captivity and calling them more humane. We are still talking about animals right? I'm surprised no one said that dogs can't be contained in a house because it violates their animal rights. From the sound of it, all your dogs are doing better than perfect in the conditions they were brought up in, so what are we arguing about. If you can't admit that there are benefits and drawbacks for and against crating, then you are too pig headed to make any type of logical argument anyway. The goal here is to help eachother and mainly the person who started the thread. Or, is anyone actually insinuating, that the crate training the OP practices is the cause of the problem?
> 
> I'm sorry for the rant, but this thread has become very personal and is rather upsetting.
> 
> Now, if you excuse me, I'm going to put a lake in my back yard because my fish are not being treated humanely in their fish tank.


I absolutely understand the positive sides of crating. Like I said before, my dogs are all crate trained. They know what it is like to lay in a small box fro the dog trailer. I can leave them in a crate for up to 8 hours because I trained them for the flight and I have a crate at home so I can crate at least one or even two if I have two. 

So I am not that ignorant. I a not against crating in particular. It is very convenient sometimes. However, I am against excessive crating and in my country, 16 hours of crating a dog in a crate is animal cruelty and that is how I was raised. If you want to crate them for that long, than they need to be the propper sized. 

So I hope that I don't come across as ignorant and pig headed since I understand why they do it. What bothers me is the amount of time.


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## just another truck

selzer said:


> Several pages ago, someone mentioned bicycling with a seven month old puppy? Is that right????
> 
> Does this make anyone else nervous???


 I am now interested in what people have to say to tis, including you, I have road my bike with Hunter, at a low s[peed ( trott for him ) keeping him on the lawns. 

I use this on days tha tI have not been able to walk him... if this is no good, I would like to know. I have been doing the trot thinking that it would make a decent cardio.

To the OP.. 

My Wife is the reason I have a pure bred Germand Shepherd, sh had one as she was growing up. Aparently she doenst recall the puppy stage. Hunter is fantastic pup, and adore him, but he is a full blown puppy. I feel for you, and I Hope that you are able to make the decision that is best for you and your pup. As for Hunter.. well, some days we share the dog house..At least I have company now..


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## MaggieRoseLee

Reference biking with a pup. Think if the pup was leashed and on pavement, I'd definitely wait until they are older.

If it was more 'off road' biking on a trail with the pup off leash and a normal pace, the pup would probably be fine but definitely something to keep an eye on.


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## just another truck

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Reference biking with a pup. Think if the pup was leashed and on pavement, I'd definitely wait until they are older.
> 
> If it was more 'off road' biking on a trail with the pup off leash and a normal pace, the pup would probably be fine but definitely something to keep an eye on.


 
So trotting on the lawn, so so.. best off leash and off beaten trail.. I will wait then. Thank you...


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## MaggieRoseLee

just another truck said:


> So trotting on the lawn, so so.. best off leash and off beaten trail.. I will wait then. Thank you...


Repetitive and high impact is what we need to avoid with pups. So the 'off leash' helps the pup adjust speed to slow and speed up to help with repetitive. And much less impact when on natural ground the pup can pick and choose the footing to some extent (rather then concrete and pavement).


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## Jason L

Agree with what MRL said. Biking at this point should just be a way for you to keep up with the pup ... not to set a pace for the pup to run/trot.


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## Jason L

Ruthie said:


> I really have to comment on the whole "I wouldn't want to be in a crate..." thing. You are not a dog! DOGS ARE NOT PEOPLE!
> .


Not this again. Amy said it: dogs are not people. If you really feel bad about it, leave him a copy of new york times or, better yet, lend him your iphone for the few hours that he is in his crate so he can keep himself occupied ...


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## irongrl

selzer said:


> Several pages ago, someone mentioned bicycling with a seven month old puppy? Is that right????
> 
> Does this make anyone else nervous???


It makes me nervous. I can only comment as someone who frequently uses bike/recreation paths for running and biking. Anytime I have seen someone riding a bike while holding a leash with a dog at the other end, I want to turn around and run or ride in the other direction as fast as I can. It always looks like an accident waiting to happen. On one occasion I rode up to a cyclist who was on one side of the path while the dog was running in the grass on the other side of the path, and the long leash was over the path. :headbang:I had to ride off the path into the grass to go way around cyclist/dog to avoid an accident.


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## crisp

Mrs.K said:


> I absolutely understand the positive sides of crating. Like I said before, my dogs are all crate trained. They know what it is like to lay in a small box fro the dog trailer. I can leave them in a crate for up to 8 hours because I trained them for the flight and I have a crate at home so I can crate at least one or even two if I have two.
> 
> So I am not that ignorant. I a not against crating in particular. It is very convenient sometimes. However, I am against excessive crating and in my country, 16 hours of crating a dog in a crate is animal cruelty and that is how I was raised. If you want to crate them for that long, than they need to be the propper sized.
> 
> So I hope that I don't come across as ignorant and pig headed since I understand why they do it. What bothers me is the amount of time.


I find it interesting that you keep quoting '16 hours of crating' when no one actually said that. People mentioned crating their dog for the night, then walking them, playing with them, feeding them, and then crating them for the duration of work. So, the duration you are so hung up on is an interval of 8 hours at a time. I'm guessing this was done to add shock value to your opinion.

Furthermore, I'm not sure why you keep bringing up your county and the laws present there. Just because a legislative body passed their opinions into a law somewhere does not make them and undisputable fact. 

Also, how can we seriously debate animal cruelty when most of us use compulsion to train our dogs. We are quick to judge others on training methods that differ from our own but don't think twice when its time to give our dog a 'gentle correction'.

If you think about it, we all keep our dogs against their will, they are never given a choice to stay or go. We call our efforts training, but are in fact containing them, changing their way of life, their tendencies, instincts and behavior. This in intself can be labeled as a violation of animal rights. I guess what I'm saying is, I don't unerstand the debate on methods of confinement. We are all practicing some form of animal cruelty. If you want a kennel, great, but don't criticise others for choosing a crate. If the point you are trying to make is that your methods are simply a little less cruel, or that you are a better dog owner, then congrats. You win!


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## crisp

selzer said:


> Several pages ago, someone mentioned bicycling with a seven month old puppy? Is that right????
> 
> Does this make anyone else nervous???


 It makes me nervous that this is posted as a sarcastic question. Are we trying to start another personal debate. It sounds like you have insight into puppy growth and the threat continuous/strainuous activity might pose. Would it not be nicer to just post a comment like: 'I noticed someone mentioned bicycling with a seven month old puppy. Please keep in mind that the puppy is still growing and this activity could increase his chance for injury and health problems in the future.' You could even include some recommendations to allow the poster to continue the activity he enjoys and improve the welfare of the puppy.


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## Jax08

Selzer wasn't being sarcastic. She was just asking a question. 

Mrs. K is quoting 16 hours because the original post that started the debate said "8 hours" while at work and then overnight. That adds up to 16 hours. She brings up with is legal in her country so we know the basis for her opinion. She can't very well base her knowledge and experience from anywhere else.

And nobody said you were a bad dog owner because you immigrated to this country. That's so far off base, it's not even realistic. Oh...were you being sarcastic? How was that helpful?

I think you are reading way to much into some of these posts. Or maybe you just want to argue. Before being judgmental of others posts, while accusing the same, you should read the tone of yours.


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## crisp

I understnand how 8+8=16, but I don't understand why its looked at as a continuous time interval, when its actually not. I still don't see the relevance of justifying anyones practices by the laws of their country. The country still allows prong collars and questionable training methods. Therefore, hiding behind the countrys laws to state that your treatment of an animal is ethical is a joke. 

I didn't mean that someone said I was a bad owner because I immigrated. There were numerous posts criticising US and countries abroad. I fit in both categories, and tried to make a humorous/sarcastic comment. You're right, in my usual style, I probably failed.

I don't think I'm reading too much into the posts. The tone of the thread in general turned into personal attacks on training methods and actually peoples locations. I don't see how these help at all. You are probably right though with the tone of my posts as well, for which I apologize. I got a little fired up when I saw people being criticised for doing a wonderful job with their dogs.


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## just another truck

Sometimes people read into things more then they should.. whether it is their opinion that filters out what was said, or a mood they may be in. Sometimes it is the simple fact you can not hear the tone in which it was typed. Who knows. But I feel that there are enough voice's of reason here it normally washes out all of the noise and you can walk away with a pretty good feeling you got something usefull out of it.


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## Jax08

I think her point is that 16 hours out of 24 is to much. If I sleep from 10-6, then leave the house at 7 for work, the puppy would be in a crate for 16 out of 17 hours. Nobody is saying that is ideal. It's not. Luckily we've always been able to have my husband run home in the middle of the day to let puppies out. 

When Sierra was younger, we bought an outside kennel for her for the day while at work. Jax was completely out of the crate by the time she was one. She just isn't destructive. Sierra at 4, still is and can't be trusted. She'll go a year without touching a thing and then take out half the house one day on a whim. She is still crated. I can honestly say that she DOES sleep all day. I work at home almost every Friday and she doesn't move unless I call her. Unfortunately, we have to many strangers around the countryside right now with the gas drilling. I'm to paranoid to leave her out in the kennel while we aren't home.

I think people get very passionate when they view something as abuse. And different cultures will view things very differently. Unfortunately, it does often turn a bit nasty. But you really can't disagree with something without criticizing it, even if the tone is civilized.


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## kiya

Wow, is pretty much all I can think of saying without offending anyone. I've been upset since this thread went ballistic and I apologize to the original poster but I originally posted to this thread to offer some positive input.
It's really sad that I thought I found a great forum to learn more about training and raising my pup. Now I see that I am just about one of the worst people that could have dogs. I have learned that when it comes to raising a puppy its just like people raising children, its best to keep your mouth shut. I read so much about people having trouble with their puppy and since this is my 5th puppy that I'm raising in this house I thought it would be nice to share my positive experience. I agree not everyone can leave their dog/dogs outside in their yard all day. Would I leave a single pup or young dog alone by itself outside to be stolen? Absolutely NOT. If my circumstances were different my dogs could quite possibly be locked in crates in the house all day. Then I would have to worry if my house burned down, my dogs would die because they are locked in a crate and had no way to escape.
As far as taking my 7-1/2 month old pup out with my bicycle, I do not run my dog on the road, she's been walking out on the trails & was allowed to run around off leash out on the trails since at least 3 months old, she is in excellent physical condition and could easily be doing more than the 1-1/2 to 2 miles she's doing right now. She also does very well with loose lead walking, and will sit at my side when the bike stops moving just as she should if we were heeling. You wouldn't have to be scared if you see us coming.


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## High Impact

WOW

The ironic thing is that I posted here because I was frustrated, I thought Zoot's crate time was too high, I was looking for a positive solution AND I thought I had found a forum where caring experienced GSD owners would help me figure out the BEST solution. But while I was busy discussing dog responsibilities with my family, working my dog by giving her jobs to do, walking, playing frisbee, training with obedience commands, hanging with my dog, shopping for kennel panels, building a kennel run in my garage and "other" dog centered activities a group of you were pirating my thread to argue about "crating". I know very well the pros and cons of crating and the difference between a human's psychology and an animal's. I never asked for anyone to step up on a soap box and argue for over 8 pages about the extremes of crating. I know some owners crate excessively while others don't crate at all - IMO both extremes are incorrect. You are not going to change my mind in regards to crate training a den animal. I think it borders on abuse to be excessive with the crate but it also borders on irresponsibility to not provide a den and safe reprieve of some sort that she can call her own. She loves her crate - it's like her bedroom. If you'd like to continue your crate debate take it somewhere else and start your own thread. Heck maybe I will start one for you to redirect your attention - I learned that technique from some fine helpful folks here. ;-)

To those who dare wield an accusation of irresponsibility or "wince" towards my wife and I because of our decision to purchase a "working line personal protection" GSD. I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt but you have proven your inability to comprehend the written word and have made some critical negative assumptions. I wish for you to either ignore this thread or return to the original posts and reread every word of the first couple of pages. I completely admit to ignorance on the issue but you have proven your immaturity and "unhelpfullness" by accusing us of irresponsibility. I don't need to go into all the details surrounding "why" we felt it was the best interests of our family to purchase and train a "personal protection dog". You missed the part where I shared in the post that we DID do a tremendous amount of research - none of it quite prepared us for the experience. I have also made it very clear that we will care for this animal AND our family 100 percent of our ability as we are neither lazy nor indifferent.

We are simply here looking for guidance and a proactive solution to our frustration from more experienced GSD owners. It is our desire to keep Zoot and fix our frustration with your help if at all possible. A rehome is the LAST OPTION but we will do whatever is in the combined best interests of our family and for Zoot. We are not quite ready to give up - just asking for advice and counsel for the frustrating times and how to best handle them. Along the way we also hope to help anyone who needs further guidance given our experience, limited knowledge and willingness to expose our naivety. A hearty THANKYOU goes to all those who have posted helpful and proactive advice and please keep those posts coming! We love hearing all the ideas.

UPDATE: Zoot loves her new kennel run in the garage - we have gradually worked her at getting accustomed to it. She will only stay in there when we are gone during the day, other than that she is in the house. She has been WONDERFUL the last couple of days. In fact, last night we experienced a very content puppy who hung out with the family the entire night after a great time of the typical exercise routine - no land shark behavior at all. There may be a light at the end of the tunnel. If you have any specific questions regarding our decisions or routine with Zoot please feel free to ask.

Thanks again to those who care to help.


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## Mrs.K

crisp said:


> I understnand how 8+8=16, but I don't understand why its looked at as a continuous time interval, when its actually not. I still don't see the relevance of justifying anyones practices by the laws of their country. The country still allows prong collars and questionable training methods. Therefore, hiding behind the countrys laws to state that your treatment of an animal is ethical is a joke.


*Oh, so the way I was raised is a joke to you? With my family ethical husbandry is a huge thing and it's no joke for us and yes, the law is very important when you are breeding dogs because you will not get approved if your kennels are not within the rules the law dictates.*

*And as for collars: e-collars are actually outlawed and illegal over here. The prong-collar is outlawed by several cities and everything inflicts excessive pain and could be considered torture is outlawed as well. 

However, the law we are talking about has very much influenced our culture. You will barely find anyone in Germany that is going to crate his dog in the house or in the apartment. To us it's simply cruel to lock up a dog in a crate for 16 hours and give me a break about that short period of time in between. All in all the dog is crated for 16 hours a day and that is what matters. I am not hiding behind the law. I don't have to. Over here it's animal cruelty to crate a dog 8 hours over night and 8 hours during the day. Different countries have different cultures and different laws. 
*


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## bianca

High Impact. I am so pleased Zoot's new kennel is working and the last few days you have had a reprieve from the shark attacks! Here's to hoping everything continues to get better and better for you and your family


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## High Impact

THANK YOU for helping take away my frustration with my dog. I just realized that I am more frustrated with some of you then Zoot. She's such a good girl. This forum really is the greatest! ROFLOL


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## Jax08

High Impact said:


> WOW
> 
> There may be a light at the end of the tunnel.


That's wonderful! I play frisbee with Jax and the best way to tire her out is to throw it downhill. In between throws, we work on obedience, with her reward being the frisbee.

Have you tried a flirt pole? I can't get Jax interested in it outside but she loves it inside.

How about training? I can't remember what age your children are but there are 4H groups for dogs. The ones in our area are active in agility and rally. Maybe look into something like that to help get your kids involved in her training and care? 

I can tell you from experience that dogs don't like change. When something drastic changes, such as the kids going back to school, it throws them off kilter and it does take a bit for them to settle down.


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## bianca

Also do you know someone with a suitable dog that she could maybe have the odd playdate with? I find that type of playing really tires my girl out!


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## clearcreekranch

Best of luck with your puppy. I, too did a tremendous amount of research about Schutzhund bred dogs and was still not prepared as I would have liked. My husband was a lot more unprepared than I and is still getting used to the high energy level. But I would not do anything different. This dog is so much more a part of our family than any other dog that we have ever had!


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## crisp

High Impact said:


> THANK YOU for helping take away my frustration with my dog. I just realized that I am more frustrated with some of you then Zoot. She's such a good girl. This forum really is the greatest! ROFLOL


 LOL!! Thank you for calling us out. I know I deserved it.


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## JakodaCD OA

Since this post has run its' course in a hundred different directions, and Zoot's owner has posted he is working on a solution and Zoot is doing FINE,(good job by the way!! continued success!) I'm going to close this thread. 

IF anyone wants to start another topic on the horrors and/or positives of crate training, irresponsibility, or the color of the moon please feel free


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## BlackPuppy

High Impact said:


> UPDATE: Zoot loves her new kennel run in the garage - we have gradually worked her at getting accustomed to it. She will only stay in there when we are gone during the day, other than that she is in the house. She has been WONDERFUL the last couple of days. In fact, last night we experienced a very content puppy who hung out with the family the entire night after a great time of the typical exercise routine - no land shark behavior at all. There may be a light at the end of the tunnel. If you have any specific questions regarding our decisions or routine with Zoot please feel free to ask.


That sounds great!


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## JakodaCD OA

Ok, the OP requested I keep this thread OPEN, with that, I would like EVERYONE to PLEASE get 'off' the crating thing, and get back to the Original Topic in offering constructive advice to the OP..

Again, if you'd like to debate the crating issue, please start up a separate topic.
THANKS


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## Jax08

Diane - can those posts be put in another thread like Ruth suggested a few pages ago? That's alot of work, isn't it?


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## JakodaCD OA

Ya know, I admit , I'm rather computer illiterate, and am not positive how to go about it, cause I was thinking the same thing..

I may try it tho but then again, they may disappear LOL..


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## paulag1955

If all the acrimonious posts disappeared, would that be considered a bad thing?


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## paulag1955

All the research in the world still wouldn't have prepared me for the reality of raising, living with and training a high-energy GSD puppy. Just in the short time I've been a member of this forum, several people, including myself, have posted "OMG, what have I gotten myself into" threads.

HighImpact, it sounds as though you've hit on an arrangement that's workable for you, your family and for Zoot. That's good news! I'm sure when Zoot is a mature, well-behaved dog, "you'll look back on all the puppy foolishness and laugh." Or not.


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## High Impact

Hopefully things continue to progress the right direction. ;-) She's still at least two handfuls. ha


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## Stosh

Good job!


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## JakodaCD OA

High Impact, well think of it this way,,she probably does make life interesting, and if you didn't have her, you'd probably be bored ! )


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## Tess'Friend

Hi. We acquired our GS at 7 months and we had no idea what we were getting into. Tess was a very high energy dog and we wondered, being seniors, if she was too much dog for us. She has been in obedience training,first beginning and now intermediate plus weekly obedience club. At 15 months she has settled down considerably and I now have no bruises or claw slashes on my arms. The dog was our daughters who moved and could not keep her. Because we live in an urban area she goes to the dog park regularly to run until she if tired plus daily walks. We have made the effort to socialize her and we love this becoming well trained dog.
Louise


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## Ruthie

Hight Impact, I agree that responses to your post got completely out of control, but in fairness you did say,


> "I think at this stage of life it may simply be too much for us. I don’t want to give her up but I see no other solution at this time."


 This is why people got the impression that you were considering giving up.

I am really happy to hear that things have improved though. I hope things just keep getting better for you and Zoot.


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## Iletthedogout

This has been the most interesting, frustrating, yet humorous post I've seen in quite some time. It reminds me of the quote by Cesar Milan "Rehabilitate the dog and train the owners." I believe that we forget sometimes that as humans, we are not infallible. Maybe we can adopt some of the positive only training for the humans seeking information and sharing stories rather than the kohler method and prong collar approach. Maybe we should incorporate a revised golden rule: Do unto humans as you would do unto your dogs. 
I'll take my treat now!


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## zone9alady

This is my 3rd GSD. He was my first puppy from a working line. I stay home all day with him and for awhile when he was a puppy I thought I was going to go looney too. With all the constant cuts, scratches and bruising I was paranoid going grocery shopping every week knowing people were worried about my abusive husband! LOL! He did the same thing at night when it was time for bed - WHHHOOAAA - lets all run around the house and knock things over! It's comical when I think about it now, now that he's 14 months old and has more attention span and the "crazy butt" runs are lessening. 

Oh don't get me wrong - he's still an armful but what a wonderful armful. 

I hope you hang on a wee bit longer and see what develops. GSD's are such wonderful animals. Just make sure you have a lot of love to give him, he needs it. 

BTW...my dog loves his crate - he goes in there frequently to take a nap and for quiet time because I leave the door open. When I'm getting ready to leave the house he automatically goes in there, then I close the door.


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## High Impact

Ruthie said:


> Hight Impact, I agree that responses to your post got completely out of control, but in fairness you did say, This is why people got the impression that you were considering giving up.
> 
> I am really happy to hear that things have improved though. I hope things just keep getting better for you and Zoot.



LOL!

What I said in frustration made it fair for all the personal comments made about abusive crate training and irresponsible dog ownership?  LOL


Thanks for the kind words though. We do not give up easily but I posted here hoping someone could help guide us with some sensible advice so we didn't have to resort to giving her up. We seriously saw no solution for a few days before the original post...but that is why I posted. I'm very glad i posted: 1) much advice has helped confirm that we aren't going crazy 2) we are actually normal people with a normal GSD 3) I learned a great deal about how people feel about crate training 4) I learned immature people have trouble separating behavior/opinion from personal attacks

It's all getting better for me and Zoot...especially Zoot


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## Stosh

Zoot's a lucky girl!


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## High Impact

Iletthedogout said:


> ...Maybe we can adopt some of the positive only training for the humans seeking information and sharing stories rather than the kohler method and prong collar approach. Maybe we should incorporate a revised golden rule: Do unto humans as you would do unto your dogs.
> I'll take my treat now!


Great post. LOL


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## Ruthie

High Impact said:


> LOL!
> 
> What I said in frustration made it fair for all the personal comments made about abusive crate training and irresponsible dog ownership?  LOL
> 
> 
> Thanks for the kind words though. We do not give up easily but I posted here hoping someone could help guide us with some sensible advice so we didn't have to resort to giving her up. We seriously saw no solution for a few days before the original post...but that is why I posted. I'm very glad i posted: 1) much advice has helped confirm that we aren't going crazy 2) we are actually normal people with a normal GSD 3) I learned a great deal about how people feel about crate training 4) I learned immature people have trouble separating behavior/opinion from personal attacks
> 
> It's all getting better for me and Zoot...especially Zoot


Absolutely, you are not crazy! It is normal to get fed up with a really rambunctious land shark puppy. The tips I posted were mostly from personal experience. Hope they were a help to you.


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## JazzNScout

My most challenging puppies, so far, have ended up being my best dogs. I have also always relied on a good-sized well-fenced backyard and doggy playmates to help with getting all the energy out.

I haven't read through all of the replies, so I don't know if this was suggested....Have you considered doggy daycare even 2 days a week? I was lucky and found one operated by a woman who has lots of experience training GSDs and border collies. I drop my little Layla off with her once or twice a week.


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## selzer

crisp said:


> It makes me nervous that this is posted as a sarcastic question. Are we trying to start another personal debate. It sounds like you have insight into puppy growth and the threat continuous/strainuous activity might pose. Would it not be nicer to just post a comment like: 'I noticed someone mentioned bicycling with a seven month old puppy. Please keep in mind that the puppy is still growing and this activity could increase his chance for injury and health problems in the future.' You could even include some recommendations to allow the poster to continue the activity he enjoys and improve the welfare of the puppy.


Thank you ever so much for helping me to be a more kinder and gentler poster. 

FYI, I bicycle with my dogs on occasion. I also raise puppies. However, I do not pretend to be an expert on exercise and growth. I allow my puppies to exercise themselves and do not stress them to run or trot or even walk for ANY distances, and I certainly do not ride a bicycle while they run along side. I do not prevent them from running, jumping, etc. I just do not require it of them.

However, working line puppies and some higher drive puppies may NEED more exercise than I am accustomed to give puppies. And if someone is very careful, using a bicycle to accomplish this may be ok. 

On the other hand, this could be a poster that figured out that his puppy COULD run alongside the bike and is doing it without following any protocols for safety and with regard to the puppy's growth.

So, no I was not being sarcastic, I was fishing for other opinions. My first unrestrained initial post was: A BICYCLE with a PUPPY??? ARE YOU MAD??? I toned that down due to not knowing exactly how much exercise people put their seven month old pups through on average. And also because I was actually WORRIED about the puppy. 

If you all out SLAM someone, they can take it to heart or they could blow you off. Neither of which might not acheive my purpose.

I actually got what I wanted. The OP, saw the post and was concerned enough about it to explain farther what they are doing and to ASK. And other people who were watching responded with some good thoughts. 

The internet is funny. Sometimes you can explain this in a nice, reasonable manner, and people get mad at you for thinking they do not know what they are doing, and you are being condecending.


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## selzer

High Impact said:


> WOW
> 
> 
> 
> UPDATE: Zoot loves her new kennel run in the garage - we have gradually worked her at getting accustomed to it. She will only stay in there when we are gone during the day, other than that she is in the house. She has been WONDERFUL the last couple of days. In fact, last night we experienced a very content puppy who hung out with the family the entire night after a great time of the typical exercise routine - no land shark behavior at all. There may be a light at the end of the tunnel. If you have any specific questions regarding our decisions or routine with Zoot please feel free to ask.
> 
> Thanks again to those who care to help.


Sometimes things get going.

Anyhow. Consider a cot. Lots of puppies will chew the stuffings out of a bed, but a cot will let the pup off the concrete of the garage and give him a nice hoseable place to lie down. 

If not a cot, you can build a skid of sorts, again gets him up off the concrete and give him a nicer place to rest. 

Just thinking. Also be careful what kind of toys etc you leave in there. When they are busy in the chewie stages, they can ingest toys and can cost you a bundle having to go in surgically to remove a blockage -- dangerous too. So be careful what kind of chews/toys you allow.

Good luck with the kennel. It sounds like a good place for the pup to stay for the day time.


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## codmaster

paulag1955 said:


> If all the acrimonious posts disappeared, would that be considered a bad thing?


Not a bad thing but it might make for a sparse forum! Heh! Heh!


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## High Impact

It was a great evening with Zoot again.

She played frisbee and chase when the kids got home from school until she was tired. She hung out in her "new" kennel and chewed on a bone for a while in the garage while I tinkered on the old camaro. I then took her for a 1 mile walk, worked her plotz, sitz and foose and fed her (I have to brag a moment about her lighting speed plotz, WOW she is getting FAST - LOL). She went back into the kennel to chill out while my oldest daughter (12 years old) and I went for a cruise to DQ and ate supper. When we got back home from the car cruise Zoot played in the house (the jaws theme song played a few times while little furry land shark showed up - not too bad but she was hunting for prey) and then laid on the "upstairs" couch with oldest daughter until SHE WENT INTO HER CRATE all by herself in the great room and laid down. She is now snoring and down for the evening and I am going to bed myself after finishing this post.

Thank you all again.


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## Stosh

Ahhh...peace in the valley! Love your posts- we've all been there but it's been great to read about your frustations, progress and hope.


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## katieliz

hey highimpact welcome to the forum, i see you've had your trial by fire, lol. so glad to know things are going better with zoot and that you're probably gonna stay one big happy family! more often than not the opinions and advice given here are helpful and positive. when they're not ya just hafta read really fast. hope your pup raising experiences continue moving forward and your frustrations dwindle and that you wind up with a sweet, smart, dedicated companion...because a good gsd is the best darn dog in the world.


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## klgraf

I didn't read all the posts as I'm busy with my almost 11 mo old GSD (shelter dog adopted at 5 mos), 15 yr old boy and 11 yo girl. Lilly is our first dog, and we got her because my daughter has always wanted a dog. The thing that has helped us the most is a lot of exercise for Lilly. Though I'm a very busy stay-at-home mom w/ a husband who travels all the time, two kids, and an older mom to watch over, I walk Lilly 2 hours EVERY DAY. It is a huge commitment, but when we decrease this walking time, she goes kind of nuts. The other wonderful thing for her has been going to doggy day-care (Camp Bow Wow) 1 day every 7-10 days. It totally poops her out and satisfies her intense desire to play play play!

Yes, these dogs are a huge time commitment and financial commitment. We've spent a ton of money gearing up for our dog, and then with digestive issues that she's had for the last 6 mos we've had her. Thankfully, I can see the light at the end of the tunnel on that one.

Good luck, and try to get the kids involved in walking her or even doing small training sessions with her. Setting up a calendar with assignments for dog training/walking might help.


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## Stevensondrive

THIS THREAD IS A TRAIN WRECK!! I gave up reading it after 7 pages. somewhere around 4 it was hijacked by someone ranting about crates. that is too bad because who hasn't gotten frustrated by an over energetic puppy?

who cares what the laws in Germany are??


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## onyx'girl

Maybe you should have read the last 10 so you'd see it got back on track!


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## codmaster

Stevensondrive said:


> THIS THREAD IS A TRAIN WRECK!! I gave up reading it after 7 pages. somewhere around 4 it was hijacked by someone ranting about crates. that is too bad because who hasn't gotten frustrated by an over energetic puppy?
> 
> who cares what the laws in Germany are??


 
Germans?


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## Whiteshepherds

Wish I had noticed how long this thread was before I started reading it again...I would have made popcorn. 

Just want to say to the OP that like others have said, it does get better. 
The nightmares you'll have about the whole experience later on aren't so horrible...honest.

Seriously, I hope all is well and that things are starting to calm down for you all.


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## KZoppa

Stevensondrive said:


> THIS THREAD IS A TRAIN WRECK!! I gave up reading it after 7 pages. somewhere around 4 it was hijacked by someone ranting about crates. that is too bad because who hasn't gotten frustrated by an over energetic puppy?
> 
> who cares what the laws in Germany are??


 
i'm with you. my thinking was wow way to hijack a thread guys! i'm a proud crate training owner. My dogs like their crates and are comfortable in them. THATS how I train. who the **** cares how the dog is trained as long as it works for those involved and the dog is well adjusted and happy and SAFE?!


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## CaliBoy

High Impact:

I'm so relieved to hear that Zoot is having better days as time passes and is responding like a good girl. It makes me sad whenever I read about people who are not happy with their GSD (especially a girl) but I totally understand that phase where you wonder out loud and have regrets.

At the risk of being a broken record (because I've mentioned this elsewhere), I had a female GSD who just did not respond to me as a puppy. She was destructive and willfully disobedient. At times, she just stared at me and I would murmur under my breath, _what a bitch you are!!_ I know, that sounds so horrible, and it is painful for me to admit that. But she turned a certain point after some months, and we began to bond, and bond, and bond.

By the time she was two, we were inseparable and, as far as I was concerned, the sun rose and set on her, my total joy and princess of my heart. This month will be two years that she went to heaven. I cannot possibly describe how much I miss her still, but I just want you to know that it is true that at times, the worse puppy that we regret letting in our home turns out completely different than we expected.


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## High Impact

Zoot is still a stinking handfull! BUT we are ALL doing much better since I have been faithfully working her everyday ~ morning and evening. We play frisbee for twentyish minutes, we sitz, plotz, focus, and heel (foose) until she is worn out. This morning was rough so I brushed her and worked her again since her energy was through the roof. She heels incredibly well now! I can heel her 100 feet and then she will sitz in basic position and just look at me. Wonderful moments but also trying moments.

I spent almost an hour and a half with her this morning. WOW. Now I need a nap. This girl has energy and attitude like I have never seen...and yet I wouldn't want to ever give her up. How ironic. Things are better but it's still a day to day issue. Some days great and some days not so much. LOL All in all we see a light at the end of the tunnel. Every expereinced GSD owner says hang in there cuz she will turn out to be incredible if we remain consistent with her.


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## Stosh

Sounds like you're making great progress! I bet you're starting to see the dog you want inside that wild and crazy beast. Good job


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## Zoeys mom

Exercise makes a gooood puppy,lol


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## DnP

I have laboriously read through all 17 pages....let's keep this thread on track!

I have to say I love hearing about you and your family's progress with Zoot. I adopted an 18mo. old ball of energy in 2007. We are talking a gsd that acted like a border collie on crack. I can say from experience, it takes tons of time and patience to figure each other out and to fully understand where the other is coming from.

Sounds like you are finding a balance with Zoot between kennel/play/training/crate time. I'm sure you will still have times where your frustration will return, the kind you had when you first posted, but those times will be less and less frequent as Zoot gets older and "settles" down. 

Good luck, keep on doing what you're doing and keep keeps those updates Zoot coming!!!!!


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## dakota20

I haven't read all the responses here, but you could try a nice rawhide in the evening. It's good for their teeth and keeps them occupied...just a thought.


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## High Impact

Thanks for the suggestion - We have tried numerous types of rawhide and they have all been terrible - she shreads them and we find her chewing on smaller pieces. I don't need any of those getting stuck in her throat or stomach. I have even tried the compressed rawhide - she shreds everything within moments and must be under constant supervision. Rawhides are no good in my opinion...especially for our little girl.


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## High Impact

Freaking ball of energy today with a teenager attitude to boot today! Argh! Spent another one hour with her this afternoon - I'm stinking worn out. SHARK ATTACK on my teenage son while I'm typing this....gotta go!


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## JakodaCD OA

how about bully sticks? Definately supervise tho


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## High Impact

don't know what a bully stick is but I will check next trip to pet smart and do some research.


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## vat

I am glad to hear things are improving! Yes bully stick, I got the shorter fatter ones and it took Max about a couple of hours to get thru it, ahhhhh!


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## selzer

Bully sticks require mind over matter. Yes, dogs LOVE them. But if you want to know what they are, they can only get them from bulls.


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## bmasplund

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Hm............... my 'poor' pups are in the crates 8 hours at night. And 8 hours when I am at work. They have such sad and pathetic lives the poor things....
> 
> For me, if I can't be awake and around to teach or guide my pups, the crate is the safest place in the world. It's what I do when I AM awake and AM home that is important. And I pay attention to that and my dogs seem to do just fine


I agree Maggie that crates are safe. We use our crate whenever we cannot be around like work etc. We recently went to the State Fair and my wife wanted to leave our pup in the bathroom so she would have room to play and stretch. Lets just say she is a believer in the crate now as when we got home our linoleum (sp?) flooring was ripped up in the middle of the bathroom. Thankfully we were planning on tiling our floors this winter so it wasnt to big of an Oh S$&t moment. 

Try a Nylabone our puppy loves them


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## JakodaCD OA

they are pretty pricey at petsmart/petco ..Do a "search" on them via the net and you'll come up with some pretty good deals..


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## Emoore

Yeah, I just got half a dozen bully sticks from the internet for what I'd pay for 2 at Petsmart.


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## ponyfarm

Get a "JOLLY BALL"! That is the only thing that really wears my guy out. And he is the energizer bunny. Taking him to a horse show all day today and I know he will be tired for sure. Yea!


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## Stosh

I get bully sticks and other chew items like antlers, Himalayan Chews online from bestbullysticks.com. They have all kinds of natural and safe chew stuff. Mine prefer them to the bully sticks in the plastic wrap at Petsmart although Stosh would never turn one down! Jolly balls are great, but nothing wears mine out more than chasing frisbees and they're only $.99


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## mtmarabianz

Your pup seems to be doing better since you built the garage run?
I don't know where you kept her before, but she seems to be more content? Doing better?

She's in a run? (He or she?)

Maybe Mrs K & GERMAN'S know something about GERMAN Shepherds? Think!!!!!!!!!


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## High Impact

Here is a recent pic of Zoot. She is doing better since the kennel run was built in the garage although we allow her in the house often. It seems she goes through spurts of good and bad behavior. Still very trying at times.


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## BlackPuppy

Glad it's improving. She sounds like my current 7 month old. Though, he's good with me, he drives the other dogs crazy with his zoomies and mouthing.


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## PaddyD

Our puppy was a challenge until about 8 months and many were the times that she was almost brought back to the breeder. She was just being normal .... and more than we expected, not her fault. Once she hit 8-9 months she started settling down. At 15 months she is still a puppy but manageable and actually lies down for periods of time.


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## Stosh

She's beautiful! And what an innocent looking face- is it an act or does she really think she's innocent? Glad to hear she's doing better, love the head tilt


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## High Impact

It is all an act! She wont lay down for more than a few seconds. LOL The only reason she did plotz here is I had just wore her out, see the tongue! ha


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## vat

She is very beautiful! I am glad things are getting better and that you have decided to hang in there. She is going to be a great dog with all the hard work your doing.


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## BowWowSer

im glad you were able to work out the porblems with your pup. im going into 6 months with bowser now and hes really getting on my nerves. lol


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## highimpact

It's been a very long since I posted on this forum. Life seems to just fly by and I just now realized I didn't post an update on Zoot. Working with Zoot required a lot of hard work and the family had to diligently work together for a considerable length of time before things really began to settle. As a family, we all continued to work with an obedience trainer and I worked with the sheriff department's trainer on bite and protection work. The frustration slowly wore off as we adapted and Zoot began to grow up. At a year old she was quite a bit better and at 2 years old she was absolutely incredible. Now at 6 years old we have a family member who we couldn't ever fathom that we considered rehoming. Every one of us in the family is elated that we decided to keep her and make her a permanent part of our family, our family wouldn't be the same without her. It has been quite a journey but one we are all thankful for. Thank you for your encouragement and support. We learned a lot about German Shepherds from stalking and reading these forum postings.


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## onyx'girl

I re-read this thread...so refreshing to read posts from friends that no longer share or are 'banned'. I wish they would/could again. There was quite a bit of great advice and experiences to read.
Zoot is a lucky dog to have been given a 'second chance'...and that you didn't give up on her or your handling skills. So much knowledge gained for your next GSD? I hope!


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## highimpact

I am pretty confident we will never spend another day without a German shepherd. I will post up some photos from the last few years soon lol


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## gsdsar

Great to see you back ! What a great update!! Yes, they may be tough puppies but when they hit their stride, they hook you! Totally worth every second of frustration!!


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## highimpact

First year is frustrating, second year you're beginning to think this isn't terrible but by the third year it's almost like magic, she became the most incredible dog ever. The only two drawbacks of a GSD as I see it now are 1. Freaking way too smart for their own good. As one example, she even figured out how to open doors and could leave the house if we didn't lock them. LOL 2. She sheds. Wow, she sheds. LOL


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## BrendenDurand

I think the problem is not necessarily that she has to much energy but doesnt understand the job at hand. Because of the level of drive your gsd has there needs to be an assigned task (ask robert cabral for more information online he is a great dog trainer)

I think that you need to convert that energy and drive into a job whether it be all day the dog learns to heel (so every time you walk around you teach the dog heel) all the time giving her commands like sit and stay and perhaps consider a crate training programme. She is a good dog the problem is not her energy but the structure that has been taught. Structure will isolate and guide those energy bursts to only occur when permitted and at play time


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