# "Crawling"



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

This was brought up in another thread and I'm curious but it should probably have its own topic. What do you make of dogs that "crawl" next to their handler, usually when heeling towards the blind before an attack?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I've not seen it enough to know why the dog was crawling...though if it is a creepy crawl, I'd say it is not something I'd want and train the dog NOT to do it.

I've seen stalking behavior but that is the dog moving forward low stealthily. 

Anyone have vid's to share?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> I've not seen it enough to know why the dog was crawling...though if it is a creepy crawl, I'd say it is not something I'd want and train the dog NOT to do it.
> 
> * I've seen stalking behavior but that is the dog moving forward low stealthily. *
> 
> Anyone have vid's to share?


Ditto the ones I've seen were always in a stealth mode, excited, anxious moving forward to get that darn bite already.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

in the old days of training some of the hardest toughest dogs were trained with a great deal of compulsion , a picture of a well known dog comes to mind but for the life of me I cannot recall the name of this particular dog -- the drive for the fight was so strong , the compulsion was needed for the control in the heel prior to launch for attack -- lots of "obedience" looked like the dog was being suppressed, because they were -- this however is not the crawl or reduction in size out of timidity or softness !!
This was prior to dogs being tricked into obedience with balls and treats.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

I like it. Tells me the dog wants to get his bite so badly that he has had a good amount of compulsion put into him to control his drive and keep him in obedience. But then again, I have seen soft dogs do this because they are just being shifty. But generally, I like it. I actually hate seeing a perfect heel to the blind or when trying to pass bitework for shows. Those dogs don't bring it like the ones that stalk and stealth their prey


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

By crawl do you mean "stalk"?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I've seen dogs crawl and I've seen dogs stalk, and there is a definitely, obvious difference between the two. With stalking, it is just that.. the dog is stalking the helper. I have a female who tends to always heel this way in protection (but never in obedience) and that is exactly what she is doing. It wasn't created through compulsion, of which she needed very little.

Then there are dogs who are crawling because they feel pressure. That pressure could be from the handler, could be from the helper and situation. Might be pressure felt just that day, might be a long term pattern of pressure due to compulsive training. Maybe the dog really had a lot of compulsion put on him. Maybe he didn't but is a softer dog and feels pressure more keenly than he should.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

qbchottu said:


> I like it. Tells me the dog wants to get his bite so badly that he has had a good amount of compulsion put into him to control his drive and keep him in obedience.


Interesting opinion. One I certainly don't share. I don't want a dog who has needed a good deal of compulsion to keep him in control. The GSD isn't supposed to be a breed that requires constant threat of correction to keep him doing what his handler says, no matter what else he may want to do. And there are plenty of very hard, powerful, serious dogs out there who do not need that level of compulsion to maintain control. The ability to stay in control without excessive complusion certainly doesn't equate to a dog who doesn't want to engage the helper. And needing compulsion to stay in control isn't to me a way to measure if it's a tough, drivey dog.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Do you use compulsion in your dogs?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Of course some corrections are required to train a dog in this venue. But it shouldn't take extreme compulsion over the long haul.. to the point that creates crawling... to gain compliance. With too many dogs, control is a constant, daily battle. That is not the way it should be. Nor is it something that should be considered to automatically go with the territory if it's a tough dog, or be considered proof of the dog's drive and toughness. There are plenty of tough dogs that do not need it and do not battle their handler.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

I did not say crawling is desirable. Crawling, ears back, no gas in the tank is not what I am talking about. The desire, longing, energy and dam about burst is what I like. The stalk, stealth, pent up aggression, raw power, focused and zoned in on the target. I really like and enjoy seeing that. Who said I wanted a dog difficult to cap and control. In protection, I like seeing the stalking. Crawling and avoidance is undesirable. I like a dog that can take a hard correction and not crumble. I will be the first to admit that I use too much compulsion, but that is a personal flaw and I am trying in that regard


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

You said:



qbchottu said:


> I like it. Tells me the dog wants to get his bite so badly that he has had a good amount of compulsion put into him to control his drive and keep him in obedience.


Sorry if I misunderstood, but that sounded like you liked a dog that was so hard and tough and drivey that he *required* a lot of compulsion to keep him in check.

I also like a dog who can take a hard correction. Soft dogs are a huge pet peeve of mine. But I much prefer the dog who can both take them AND doesn't need them very often because he has a work ethic and biddability that matches his drive and hardness and the mental clarity to exercise some self control and remain responsive even when in drive. IMO, a GSD should have both.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

What I don't get is a lot of the dogs I see crawling (especially when anticipating the attack exercise) are then very slow on the attack, don't put much power in the bite and/or actually slide down or off the sleeve. So if the dog is crawling out of drive and desire to bite then why is the overall picture so poor?


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Yes - I love a dog with a strong desire for the fight. I adore hard dogs, but not so much they are not biddable. I too have no desire to wrangle and fight a dog into compliance. If I had to do that, the dog would no longer be worth it to do sport. 

Since I am heavy on compulsion, I like a dog that can take a good correction and not take it personally. 100% my fault, but I do not use enough +R and not enough praise after my corrections - probably just stems from how I was brought up and the type of over the top hard dogs I had as a child. Do the work, do it correctly and don't expect much praise was generally the code I lived by. I have to REALLY try hard to remember my praise - my worst shortcoming with dogs (and people). 

It absolutely takes my breath away when a dog zones in on his target and brings it like a ton of bricks. Good amount of compulsion to me is what is required to bring the dog in control and have him focus on the target. I would rather modify and control drive than be left without it. You speak from a WL perspective where over the top drive means a psychopathic dog that is malinut driven and requires ridiculous compulsion to keep in control because the drive is just spilling out all over the place. I come from SL where I greatly appreciate a dog that NEEDS compulsion to cap drive rather than the usual foo foo SL that needs you to pump him up so he can halfheartedly mouth the sleeve and run back to the crate. That is probably where the misunderstanding comes from. When I say I want drive, passion and extra control to keep the dog heeling, I speak from my experience with SL. For me, I like seeing a dog stalk his prey and go down low. Something carnal and predatory to me. But that does not mean I want a dog that needs extreme compulsion to do his job - that dog has no place in work or sport. I completely agree that the GSD needs both. Coming from SL, the DESIRE to work is so low in some of the conformationally sound dogs that I crave fight drive and energy. I think that is where our misunderstanding comes from. I believe we agree on what makes for a good GSD - we just have different definitions of "good amount of compulsion". I should have specified better.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Can anyone post a video of this? I know the difference between crawling and stalking, but I'm having a hard time with this:



Liesje said:


> usually when heeling towards the blind before an attack?


Is this in reference to something other than Schutzhund? There is no heeling towards a blind, and no attack in the blind in SchH is there?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Humm... I hadn't thought of different perspective based on different type of dog worked. That makes a lot more sense, thanks for the clarification.

Willy, the attack out of the blind used to be in SchH1 (still is in AWD1) but no longer. It is a part of the protection test in breed surveys. The same behavior can sometimes be seen during the back transport on the 2 and 3 as well, where there is also an attack.

Lies, IMO most often that happens because the crawling is a result of pressure. Maybe the dog is softer, maybe he's not but has had too much compulsion put on. Even the toughest dog in the world can only take so much before he starts to crack. 

Very often there is so much pressure by the handler put on the dog to keep the dog heeling, that the dogs come to see heeling as "good" and anything but heeling, including engaging the helper, as "bad". I've seen many start to go tentatively, but only really get going when they realize there is no correction coming so apparently this time it's ok with their handler for them to break heel.

Some dogs will take that stress from the heeling and explode it at the helper. Just like they'll take stress from retrieves and explode it into the send out. But not all dogs can handle and channel stress in that way. Some dogs fail to commit fully because of the stress that built up in the heeling. Either due to temperament or training they can't unleash that stress at the helper, but instead hang onto it as baggage that affects their committment to the biting. 

Then there are the dogs I feel really bad for, stuck between the hammer and anvil of helper and handler, with pressure from both sides, who lack the temperament, training, or both to deal with it properly.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Yes, the back transport is where I've seen what I thought you were talking about. I think JasonL posted a video of a dog doing it at the 2012 WD Championship. Wait.... no, he posted a video of a dog _stalking_ not crawling. Ok, nevermind.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

wildo said:


> Is this in reference to something other than Schutzhund? There is no heeling towards a blind, and no attack in the blind in SchH is there?


It is in the protection test used at Sieger Shows and for breed surveys. I believe there was something like it in the "old" SchH routine. There are similar exercises in SDA routines (direct attacks from the blind, not sending the dog into a blind to guard a passive person).


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I also think at the breed surveys, very often the pressure the dogs show in heeling isn't due to compulsion being used to prevent them from breaking to go to the helper, but to keep them from breaking to leave the situation altogether. Not a case of using compulsion to contain drive, so there really isn't any drive for them to put at the helper.

Sometimes, even with a strong dog where the pressure is to keep them in control and not engaging early, it can take the dog's brain a second to switch gears from a state of contained drive and obedience to recognizing the attack has come and it's ok to bite.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

I have never seen a dog crawl like you are talking about. I have seen dogs stalking the helper, but never crawl. I would like to see a video of this.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Watch Sieger show videos and there are many examples. Not that those are the only dogs or locations I've seen it, but the most common example with readily accessible video to view that I can think of.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> What I don't get is a lot of the dogs I see crawling (especially when anticipating the attack exercise) are then very slow on the attack, don't put much power in the bite and/or actually slide down or off the sleeve. So if the dog is crawling out of drive and desire to bite then why is the overall picture so poor?


Very good question Lies. I will say this however, in the other thread, I used the crawling behavior in my comments, to try to clarify what I was talking about. Didn't work.  It was not the main point, just a comment about the behavior I saw in certain dogs years ago . 
It is an odd behavior and other trainers, (who have trained almost as long or longer than I have), have seen it as well and are of the same " WTH?" mentality. lol.

It is a level of dullness, non-compliance, resistance to correction, shut down behavior that makes these dogs almost un-trainable and certainly unpleasant to train. It is not drive related nor is it a result of brutal compulsion. I almost wrote a book about it on the euro list when Caro Allerswald was discussed. 

With the SL dogs who were like this, if you could get them to respond, it was the "oh you just killed me" behavior. The Bungalow dogs would just fight with you.....bite, resist and only comply with the least amount of effort possible. No, it is not a drive related behavior. It is something else entirely.

That's all I have to say, it is not possible to make it clear on a forum, you have to see it and experience it.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

What other thread was this discussion in? I'll have to go look up it up. Sounds like the type of crawling that Anne is talking about is different than what I've seen that I'd call crawling. I think I know what sort of "crawl" Anne is talking about but I've only seen it once or twice in older videos, not in real life.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I think there are different types. I don't think most of us are thinking of what Anne is talking about. Watching some of the more recent Seiger Show videos I see a lot of dogs that look "crawly" (not alert, heads low, movement loose) and are sniffing the ground. Do you think they sniff because of stress or are they really that uninterested in the work that they will sniff around instead of pay attention?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I would say the sniffing is stress. Avoidance behavior/calming signals. What I think of when I hear of "crawling" is that slinking behavior where they look like they want to be anywhere but where they are, showing a lot of avoidant body language and stress related displacement behaviors like lip licking, sniffing, etc.... Different from stalking, where the dog is holding the body and head low, but is tense and alert and ready to pounce.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

It basically comes down to clarifying which behavior we are talking about. 
One is crawling, the other is stalking. Just like with the other topic where you have sensitivity or softness.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Maybe the term "slinking" would make more sense. I believe this is more what Anne means.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Hello....It doesn't matter what I meant, I was using that example as a symptom of a certain type of temperament. I could offer other examples but after this...I don't think I'd better. lol. You guys are getting too caught up in it.

I was talking about a weird level of hardness that I saw in some of the older show line dogs. I have talked about WL dogs who are similar also. Both, just didn't show any aptitude for obedience. Unwilling, just not interested in pleasing the handler. You can have a hard dog who is also compliant and willing or where there is another way to motivate them. The dogs I am talking about...nope....they just refused and I guess most people will only understand if I do use the term stubborn. 

Most people will read this and think...uh huh, the dogs she is talking about were corrected too hard or beaten up and that's why. Nope, that didn't happen either but I sure felt like doing that. I think a Jack Ass would respond faster, (and with a better attitude), than those dogs did.

A level of hardness is necessary in the breed but this was way beyond that and I feel something else was going on there as well. Not something I found desirable at all. Like I said, the other people who have experinced dogs like this were of the same "Holy Mackerel what is WRONG with you?" opinion of the dogs, that I had. You don't forget dogs like that, they are that unpleasant to work with.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Anne, I think I know the temperament you're talking about. We had a dog from completely different lines than the ones you mentioned who was similar to some of the things you're talking about. Not the hardness, but the total unwillingness and disinterest. Almost impossible dog to motivate. She had drive, but would only use it in situations where she was essentially free, and there were no expectations. Playing ball, sure. Doing obedience, never. As soon as it became about working for the handler, all motivation was gone. Very untrainable dog in many ways. The world revolved around her and while a sweet dog in general there was zero desire to do anything for anyone else. Reminded me more of a cat than anything. She had her own agenda and if you could find a way to make her think it was all her idea, she'd play along, but as soon as any behaviors were asked for she'd just walk away. She could be dancing in circles for her dinner bowl, but ask her to sit and you'd get a dirty look and she'd walk away, now completely disinterested in it because she was asked to earn it. Compulsion wasn't an option because she'd shut down at the slightest correction. Stubborn really did seem to be the best word for her. She lived with us to 13 as just a house pet, and actually was a delightful pet and easy to live with most of the time, since there weren't really any expectations beyond being a pet and nothing was really required of her. But it really was more like living with a 60lb cat than a dog.


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