# The small amount of titled dogs



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

This came up in a different thread. There were only 10 UDX titles handed out in 2010 to GSDs. I looked more into it and only 252 CDs were given to GSDs! I mean come on! Its a CD...

I think there were something like 216 champions that year and yet so few obedience titles. What do you guys think of these numbers? And why do you think they're so low?

I've heard things about UDX (I'm hoping to get there one day) and I've seen how difficult even CDX can be to get. Some say the biggest difference between AKC titles and Schutzhund is that in Schutzhund the dog doesn't have to be perfect, there are no things that if the dog doesn't do it on the first attempt it fails, is that true? Where as in the AKC ring, if the dog misses a jump it can be an automatic IQ.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

DQ or NQ, yeah well perfect is pushing it. I have been to a lot of shows, and I don't know that I have ever seen perfect. But yes, you can not qualify for a number of things.

I think its the UDX that I would not care about. There is novice, that is your CD. Then Open, that is your CDX, and it is similar to a CD, but the on-leash portion is dropped, stays are longer and I think out of sight, there is a jump, etc. The UD has sent articles and retrieve over the jump, hand signals, and maybe a few other things like the stand for exam is more than just a touch, touch, touch. 

But the UDX I think is just qualifying in Open and in Utility at the same show x 10. That is a whole lot of entrance fees without really anything more. Kind of like the RAE, Go for the RA, go for the RE, but spend a ton of money to get an RAE? And the some of those people are working on the second or third RAE, this is leg 7 of RAE3, well La dee dah to you too. 

No, if you are having a good time, go for it. But to me it really doesn't tell me anything about the dog. 

But people are broke right now. I think I got Babs' CD in 2011, and Heidi's RA, but those were the last shows I went to, about a year ago.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

What do I think? I think that the higher level obedience titles require more work than most people want to put into a dog. It's not really because of the dogs, it's not American lines versus German lines. We live in an era of instant (or near-instant) gratification, where people lose interest if something is difficult or takes too long. on top of that, many people just aren't jazzed by this type of competition. I still love it, even after all these years. 

There are huge differences between going for AKC titles and going for Schutzhund titles.....not saying one is better or more difficult than the other, they are both very different. Schutzhund has considerably more difficult physical requirements...but working a dog in a nice open field, often the same field where the dog has been trained, is a very different story versus showing a dog in a small ring at a crowded indoor show where they've never trained before, with a judge following close. 

that's just a couple of random thoughts....gotta run, have to go teach a couple of obedience classes!


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

selzer said:


> There is novice, that is your CD. Then Open, that is your CDX, and it is similar to a CD, but the on-leash portion is dropped, stays are longer and I think out of sight, there is a jump, etc. The UD has sent articles and retrieve over the jump, hand signals, and maybe a few other things like the stand for exam is more than just a touch, touch, touch.


Not quite. Open has offlead heelwork, retrieves (flat and over the jump), a drop on recall, broad jump, sit and down stays with handler out of sight. The retrieve exercises work a bit with the dog's prey drive, the dumbells are thrown. Utility is signal exercise (a killer for many dogs), scent discrimination, directed retrieve, moving stand, directed jumping. No dumbbells or gloves are thrown, nothing is moving to excite the dog's prey drive. Everything except the moving stand has a multiple choice component to it. Utility is a mental game that requires a lot of focus and decision making on the part of the dog. 

28 GSDs earned a UD in 2010. That's not very many.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Well, you could not care about the advanced titles, but this forum makes such a big deal out of Schutzhund titles and not breeding without them that its interesting that no one mentions the AKC titles which are much more available than any Schutzhund title (just by number of trials and proximity). Most places train following the AKC titles, and yet no one trials. It's much easier to train for an AKC title than a Schutzhund title which requires all the specialized equipment and the helper. It just doesn't really make sense why looking for a breeding with a UDX isn't pushed as much as looking for a breeding with a Schutzhund III.

Selzer, what does tell you something about the dog? What do you want to see in a potential breeding pair? If I'm looking for a breeder I want to see some titling...and you get out of the dog what you put in it. In my mind a UDX stud or bitch should command more money than one with a UD or CDX.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

AKC has been lowering the barriers to entry with dog competitions for years. When I got Rocky, there was no Rally and no Beginner novice. The "lowest" thing you could get was a CD. Nowadays you can get into fun, easier things like RN and BN . Heck, you can get all the way to RAE without ever having to attempt a "formal" obedience title. 

After trying agility and trying rally, I have no desire to try for a CD. It just doesn't look like fun to me. AKC is kind of hanging obedience out to dry with things like Rally-o and agility, which are generally more enjoyable for the casual and first-time competitor.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

Getting a IPOIII involves succeeding in three different phases, not just obedience... if we are going to discuss breeding-worthiness and testing for that we should think of all three phases and what they entail, what each exercise of each phase tells about the dog (some would say nothing now, but that's a totally different discussion) and the amount of training it takes to succeed. 

Emoore, I agree with your opinion on the AKC lowering barriers to entry. I also think a lot of schutzhund people view it as a lifestyle. it's so addicting and takes so long just to get a BH that you want to see your journey through. I can't tell if AKC obedience is the same, because I've never done it. I can tell you people who get UDX, UD etc on their dogs probably go into it with the same mindset that most schutzhund go into training their dogs. 

It takes a lot from the handler to get AKC obedience titles. It takes a lot from the handler and the dog to get IPO titles (normally)


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

I raised my puppy (Jag) with the knowledge that I wanted to do Utility work with him. People who are serious about Obedience raise their puppies differently from those competing in conformation or as pets. We teach them early how to learn, so that the training tends to go easier later.

entries are down thru out AKC. They have added addtional classes in obedience and conformation in order to keep the revenue up.

People seem to have less time for their dogs.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think there are alot of factors that come into play why so few UD titles.

1. what daphne said, people have less time for their dogs.
2. EXPENSE! Do you know what the entries are for AKC obed? if you've got 1 dog, maybe not so bad, but alot of people have multiple dog households, so alot of expense come into that, along with Training classes another expense.
3. the economy sucks
4. there are soooo many other venues like agility, rally, herding, tracking that are much more "fun" than obedience for alot of dogs &handlers.

I think the biggest reason is money, it ain't cheap anymore to do ANYTHING.

I'm sure there are other reasons but those just popped out of my head. 

As for "only" 252 CD's,,well does YOUR dog have a CD? and why not? You could be #253


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Several years ago I trained my Dobe for a CD, but I never trialed her. She absolutely hated it. Dobes are difficult to train when a trainer insists on a lot of repetition, and that is what was available at the time. 

Fast forward to now. I have this lovely ASL, that has a stable temperament, a couple of points in the show ring, and her herding instinct certificate. She NEEDS something to do. 

I start classes with her tomorrow. I'm excited about her learning. Carly is such a busy bee, that I am sure she is going to love it. I'm pretty sure that her biggest handicap is me, LOL. I'm going to try to _not_ get in her way!

Speaking of titles, we have a member of our local GSD club that has 5 AKC conformation points on her boy, a RN (at least - she may have gotten an RA by now), and a CDX. She is currently training him for Utility and is very excited about it. I'm not sure if she has done any herding with him, but knowing her, she probably has.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

dogfaeries said:


> I start classes with her tomorrow. I'm excited about her learning. Carly is such a busy bee, that I am sure she is going to love it. I'm pretty sure that her biggest handicap is me, LOL. I'm going to try to _not_ get in her way!


Huh, good luck with that. Agility makes me feel like such a nimrod. I am, without a doubt, the limiting factor in this team.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I'll echo what Daphne said about how costly it is to show your dog in an AKC event.

I took 2 dogs, for 2 days of showing this past weekend to Wichita KS. It was about $120 in entry fees alone, then there is the cost of gas, and a hotel room, and reserve grooming, and food. I came home with 4 ribbons, and a tote bag for 1st place in Bred By Exhibitor. No points. 

Last weekend, we did the same thing in Claremore OK. Only this time, I spent $50 a dog for each herding instinct test. Two tests for each dog = $200. Ouch. That was on top of about $120 in conformation entry fees, etc etc etc. I came home with 4 conformation ribbons, 3 herding instinct test qualifying ribbons, and no conformation points. But watching the girls in the ring with a few sheep was priceless!!

Now, add the cost of obedience training classes that are starting tomorrow.

Dogs are expensive.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Emoore said:


> Huh, good luck with that. Agility makes me feel like such a nimrod. I am, without a doubt, the limiting factor in this team.


I feel your pain. I'm about the most ungraceful person on the planet. I'm pretty sure at some point I'll be face down in the ring, with Carly standing over me, laughing.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

DunRingill said:


> What do I think? I think that the higher level obedience titles require more work than most people want to put into a dog. It's not really because of the dogs, it's not American lines versus German lines. We live in an era of instant (or near-instant) gratification, where people lose interest if something is difficult or takes too long. on top of that, many people just aren't jazzed by this type of competition. I still love it, even after all these years.
> 
> There are huge differences between going for AKC titles and going for Schutzhund titles.....not saying one is better or more difficult than the other, they are both very different. Schutzhund has considerably more difficult physical requirements...but working a dog in a nice open field, often the same field where the dog has been trained, is a very different story versus showing a dog in a small ring at a crowded indoor show where they've never trained before, with a judge following close.
> 
> that's just a couple of random thoughts....gotta run, have to go teach a couple of obedience classes!


 
I have done (and are currently doing) both Sch and AKC - one huge difference is the setting, as someone has said already here.

In AKC OB, usually you are competing in a smaller ring right alongside other rings with active dogs in them. Very different in Sch (at least the few shows that I have been to) where you compete in a large field.

And there is no equivalent in the ScH ring to the "Group" exercises that are in AKC Novice and Open levels where the dogs have to line up 4' from each other in a line and do a 1 minute sit stay and 1 3 minute down stay in Novice and a 3 and 5 minute of the same in Open (with handlers out of sight in Open and across the ring in Novice.

I really think that a number of ScH dogs that I have seen would have a great deal of trouble with these group exercises (OTOH the handlers have not needed to train their dogs for this and haven't done so).

And the scoring in the BH level of ScH (the only one that I have been to) was MUCH Much easier and more casual than the Novice OB. Of course i also think that the scoring in Rally Novice is also much easier and more relaxed than the Novice OB test.

I like both ScH and AKC OB (and of course there is no equiv. of the bite work in the AKC environment).


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

dogfaeries said:


> I feel your pain. I'm about the most ungraceful person on the planet. I'm pretty sure at some point I'll be face down in the ring, with Carly standing over me, laughing.


 
Heh! Heh!

Remember, pictures are needed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Is doing conformation cheaper than doing obedience?


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

codmaster said:


> Heh! Heh!
> 
> Remember, pictures are needed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


LOL, well it's GOING to happen at some point, and all my friends have cameras.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Whiteshepherds said:


> Is doing conformation cheaper than doing obedience?




I don't know about obedience fees. Conformation entries are about $24-$28 an entry. That's per dog, per day. A four day show can be COSTLY!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I started to look into it with Beau but the amount of time is outrageous particulrly when search and rescue training is on the weekends as well. If each trial was a one time thing, but there are so many repetitions you have to do to get a title.........that it seems it would have to be a 'way of life'

So I imagine we will train many of these things for fun but not worry about the titles....and have to be satisfied with annual NAPWDA working certifications, which are pretty robust for cadaver dogs and have a strong obedience element anyway.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

martemchik said:


> Well, you could not care about the advanced titles, but this forum makes such a big deal out of Schutzhund titles and not breeding without them that its interesting that no one mentions the AKC titles which are much more available than any Schutzhund title (just by number of trials and proximity). Most places train following the AKC titles, and yet no one trials. It's much easier to train for an AKC title than a Schutzhund title which requires all the specialized equipment and the helper. It just doesn't really make sense why looking for a breeding with a UDX isn't pushed as much as looking for a breeding with a Schutzhund III.
> 
> Selzer, what does tell you something about the dog? What do you want to see in a potential breeding pair? If I'm looking for a breeder I want to see some titling...and you get out of the dog what you put in it. In my mind a UDX stud or bitch should command more money than one with a UD or CDX.


My point is that UDX is not more than UD. Every dog that gets a UD also has gotten a CDX. A UDX is getting a CDX leg and a UD leg at the same show ten separate times. Just like an RAE. That just equals money to the AKC and the various clubs. It really does not tell you anything more about the dog. UD -- yes, that is great. But UDX, so what, you just like going to shows and will bay a slightly reduced double entry form times ten or more if you dog does happen to scrap a section.


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## Franksmom (Oct 13, 2010)

selzer said:


> My point is that UDX is not more than UD. Every dog that gets a UD also has gotten a CDX. A UDX is getting a CDX leg and a UD leg at the same show ten separate times. Just like an RAE. That just equals money to the AKC and the various clubs. It really does not tell you anything more about the dog. UD -- yes, that is great. But UDX, so what, you just like going to shows and will bay a slightly reduced double entry form times ten or more if you dog does happen to scrap a section.


It may sound easy because the dogs already have the CDX and UD so all they have to do is qualify in both classes on the same day, but it's not. 
I know of several dogs that will score great when just doing one class but when you add in that second class things change. 
You asked "What it tells you about the dog" I guess it depends on what you want to know about a dog in the first place. 
It tells me alot but I'm interested in AKC obedience. 
I plan on adding that UDX to Frank's name someday, but for now we're training for his CDX.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Franksmom said:


> It may sound easy because the dogs already have the CDX and UD so all they have to do is qualify in both classes on the same day, but it's not.
> I know of several dogs that will score great when just doing one class but when you add in that second class things change.
> You asked "What it tells you about the dog" I guess it depends on what you want to know about a dog in the first place.
> It tells me alot but I'm interested in AKC obedience.
> I plan on adding that UDX to Frank's name someday, but for now we're training for his CDX.



I got an RA and an RE leg on the same day with no sweat, I finished the CD on the same day with a different dog. I had her signed up for both shows, and because we passed on the first, I opted out of the second, not because of her, but because of me. 

In my case, it says more about the handler than the dog.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

selzer said:


> My point is that UDX is not more than UD. Every dog that gets a UD also has gotten a CDX. A UDX is getting a CDX leg and a UD leg at the same show ten separate times. Just like an RAE. That just equals money to the AKC and the various clubs. It really does not tell you anything more about the dog. UD -- yes, that is great. But UDX, so what, you just like going to shows and will bay a slightly reduced double entry form times ten or more if you dog does happen to scrap a section.



"UDX is not more than a UD", "does not tell you anything more about the dog." Oh you could NOT be more wrong! Only someone who has never done it would say something like that. and I guess you think an OM doesn't say anything either. Cripes.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

selzer said:


> I got an RA and an RE leg on the same day with no sweat, I finished the CD on the same day with a different dog. I had her signed up for both shows, and because we passed on the first, I opted out of the second, not because of her, but because of me.
> 
> In my case, it says more about the handler than the dog.


Ummmm yeah, there's a BIT of difference in training between advanced levels of Rally and advanced levels of competition obedience. You're right, RAE legs are pretty much a gimme in comparison. Tho I will say the new Rally Excellent exercises do actually require a bit of training, YAY.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

selzer said:


> In my case, it says more about the handler than the dog.


I understand this because I can't bring myself to enter any kind of obedience competition...but we train all the time just in case I ever get a backbone. 

So what made you decide to breed GSD's? I guess I think that when people breed dogs it's partly because they're always looking for that one dog that's everything the breed should be. To do that don't you have to trial them, work them and at the very least, see how they stack up against other dogs of the same breed?


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

selzer said:


> I got an RA and an RE leg on the same day with no sweat, I finished the CD on the same day with a different dog. I had her signed up for both shows, and because we passed on the first, I opted out of the second, not because of her, but because of me.
> 
> In my case, it says more about the handler than the dog.


RA =/= CDX
RAE =/= UD

Have you seen the pass/fail ratios for the UD? There are _so _many ways to fail.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

I've done schutzhund (2 Sch3s, a Sch2, and a Sch1 from the ground up) and I've done AKC obedience--did a CDX back in 1994 and a CD back around 1997. And recently I've done Rally.

Overall numbers are down in the AKC obedience ring--I don't think it's because the economy is rough--although I'm sure that has some influence. I think it's because AKC obedience is difficult, there's many, many ways to fail, and because it's so routine that the dogs get stale on it quickly. 

In schutzhund, you generally compete once (or twice or 3 times) at the Sch1 and Sch2 levels. Then if you are super competitive, you may compete your dog 7 times a year (which would be a *lot*) at the Sch3 level. When someone goes for their UD or UDX title, I think its not unusual to enter 20+ trials to get the required 3 legs. It's hard to keep this fun and enjoyable for the dogs--and the humans! I think it ends up a bit of a grind to get these higher Obed. titles--and it isn't something you can train and do in a few weeks.

Do I think AKC obedience is easier or harder than a schutzhund title? I think it's apples to oranges--they are just not comparable. It's harder to fail schutzhund based on any one exercise--but there are a *lot* of exercises, especially when you consider all 3 phases.

Schutzhund is designed to show the outside observer something about the dog--drives, temperament, hardness, courage. AKC obedience is designed so that ideally every dog gives about the same performance--it's not designed to reveal anything to the observer. But I bet that after the titles are received, both trainers know an awful lot about their dogs--inside and out.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

BlackthornGSD said:


> Schutzhund is designed to show the outside observer something about the dog--drives, temperament, hardness, courage. AKC obedience is designed so that ideally every dog gives about the same performance--it's not designed to reveal anything to the observer. But I bet that after the titles are received, both trainers know an awful lot about their dogs--inside and out.


OK where's the "LIKE" button?


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## tracking gsds (Apr 11, 2012)

I'm new to this forum, but rally titles in no way are the equal to obedience titles. I aim for the UDX on my dogs and have as of yet to get the UD. My dog that died with 2 UD legs, was breed ranked in Novice and Open, sailed through the RN with placements. The first two legs I heard other competitors complain about my dog and 2 others that they were "obedience" dogs and that is why we clean up in the ribbons.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Whiteshepherds said:


> I understand this because I can't bring myself to enter any kind of obedience competition...but we train all the time just in case I ever get a backbone.
> 
> So what made you decide to breed GSD's? I guess I think that when people breed dogs it's partly because they're always looking for that one dog that's everything the breed should be. To do that don't you have to trial them, work them and at the very least, see how they stack up against other dogs of the same breed?



Whatever. I have obedience titles on some of my dogs. I have Rally titles on all but the two babies and Odie, and I will get them eventually. My point was not to dis obedience titles, just the UDX and the RAE. Because they seem like the same thing to me, they are BOTH just more of the same thing you have already titled in. I got Heidi's last RA leg and First RE leg on the same day both with first place both in RA and RE. And went over and finished Babs' CD with a third place on the same day. I got titles on Arwen, Babs, and Rushie on the same weekend plus a leg on Jenna. In the ring six times, qualifying with four different dogs in three days, placing with Arwen, Babs twice, and Rushie. I have trained two of them in Agility, and put a couple in conformation classes, and did a few other things with them as well. 

I guess I generally don't waste my money on a show unless my dogs are ready. So by the time they get their titles, I am not worried about NQing. And I rarely do -- usually my fault. So I could take any of the dogs that have titles and walk into the ring tomorrow and qualify. Big whup. I don't understand the 20 more legs of the same, sounds like a waste of money. 

I would think that once you finish your UD your dog would do an open leg with no problem at all. But for those that have been there who say it is different to get two legs on one day, I will concede. Trust me, it is NOT different to get two on the same day in Rally so I will say that the RAE is a waste of money, perhaps the UDX makes more sense to do it over and over again.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

tracking gsds said:


> I'm new to this forum, but rally titles in no way are the equal to obedience titles. I aim for the UDX on my dogs and have as of yet to get the UD. My dog that died with 2 UD legs, was breed ranked in Novice and Open, sailed through the RN with placements. The first two legs I heard other competitors complain about my dog and 2 others that they were "obedience" dogs and that is why we clean up in the ribbons.


Originally Rally was supposed to be a step between the CGC and Obedience or Agility. It became its own monster. I always do Rally first, so I am working green dogs in Rally novice B. I am not anal about some things, but I have placed in more than half of my ring appearances. And have a better record in obedience with half first placements, and 2/3 placements. 

Rally and Obedience are just different. They take different training styles. And Rally may be easier to an obedience trainer, but it depends. I have heard obedience people totally freaked out by Rally. They do not like having to remember the order, etc. It is just different, and both require a level of training. Personally, I think with all the talking and the freedom in Rally, the dogs are set up to be sloppier. If you have to be stiffer with your body language and your placement and your commands, the dog will be more likely to do everything just so. 

Just different.


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## Discoetheque (Nov 2, 2011)

Obedience and Conformation prices for AKC are roughly the same. It can range anywhere between $24-$30 per entry, which is one of my biggest problems right now. I began trialing my dog for the CD when times were better, and we NQed on our first trial (handler error). Passed the second and the third with first-place scores of 179 and 191, respectively.

Now, a year later and things have taken a definite turn for the worst and being able to do ANYTHING with my dog even closely resembling trialing is an extreme luxury or is guaranteed to hurt me for the next month. We tried for that final leg of the CD last month, and NQed again (same effing handler error). If I've learned ANYTHING about myself and my dog, it's that she has a much tighter grasp on the rules than I do, as her performances have far exceeded mine...lol. I wanted to spend April training myself so that we can try again at the end of the month to finish that CD once and for all and get training for the CDX (whenever we'll be able to start that), but it looks like that's not going to happen, either.

I simply love obedience. And if I had the time and the money, I'd definitely go further and higher with our AKC titles, as well as Schutzhund. Obedience has always been my first love. For me, it's as Selzer said: people are broke right now. AKC entry is down across the boards. At the big Detroit Kennel Club show every March, it seems like they add an obedience trial to the weekend, just to try and squeeze in more money. In 2010, I'm pretty sure there were only 2 trials. In 2011, they did two on Saturday and one on Sunday. Last month, they did two per day: Four trials for the weekend. Yet and still, we find times where there is no dog for us to compete against, or only one other. 

But AKC Obedience is definitely no cakewalk. There's a call for precision and a significant reduction in wiggle-room, and I noticed a difference in that between my BH and the first leg that we passed of our CD. I can't say other people's reasons for not obtaining titles and for the number of those titles decreasing, but I believe it is a combination of factors, most of which have already been named here: economy, lack of "instant" gratification, laziness, brushing off of AKC obedience in favor of other venues (UKC, SV, etc).

And to Avoitzrims, at the risk of opening up a whole can of worms here, I see the three phases as just different types of obedience in action. Tracking is obedience. Obedience is of course obedience, and the protection phase is extreme obedience. Aside from a degree of courage and tenacity, I don't think a Schutzhund title tells you exponentially more than any other higher-level obedience title. In the end, to onlookers, they really just show how good of training the dog has managed to receive. Only the trainer/handler can take anything more out of it.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't do AKC anything anymore because 1) entry fees and 2) I don't like having to enter a month in advance.

With a sport like flyball, I pay $30 total and my dog races 6-8 times a day all weekend! With the UKC stuff we do, other than the Premier I've always been able to enter day-of. That is slightly more expensive than pre-entering but then I don't risk losing $100 in entries for a weekend my dog turns out to be sick or lame. I'd love to try AKC obedience but for me it's simply a matter of where I get most bang for my buck, and that happens to be U-Fli flyball, UKC events, CPE agility, & UAD dock diving.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

JakodaCD OA said:


> As for "only" 252 CD's,,well does YOUR dog have a CD? and why not? You could be #253


My dog was only born in July 2010!!! And we're getting our second leg this weekend...lol.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I get the whole fee thing, but Schutzhund isn't cheap either. I get that its more fun to train and that's where the biggest expense in Schutzhund, where as in AKC most times the bigger expense (it is in my case) is the trialing.

I will never compare rally to obedience. We got our BN first just to figure out AKC scoring and rules, and then I went on to RN concurrently with CD. RN is not difficult, the people just make it look difficult. We got first place in our first two trials. A dog that is trained in obedience first shouldn't have any problem with rally. I know I'm only training one at a time right now and for those people with more dogs its more difficult and expensive but I'm not really trying to get at why there are so few, but why it isn't pushed more to breeders to see their dogs with a UD or UDX.

Anytime someone comes on to this forum asking about breeding or studding we always ask about Schutzhund, and I get the whole thing about testing the dog in all 3 phases, but I think a part of it is tradition. Why can't a UDX be the same thing? Why don't we ask if people trial in obedience and are working towards that? Seems like even "hardcore" dog people are turning their backs on the AKC trials.


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## Ramage (Oct 10, 2009)

I have a dog here that I'd gladly go get a CD and CDX with ASAP but we have an issue with the stand for exam. She's wonderful in public (earned her CGC and TT) and I can trust her, but she can get weird about some strangers invading her space. She won't bite, but she will bark (sometimes). It's my fault, though. I raised her with Schutzhund and a BH in mind and in Schutzhund you don't have a stranger judge coming up and touching them 3 times. Still, my fault, I know. 

My goal was to try Rally with her instead, but I'm about to wash my hands of that. In the our first Rally trial she kept touching my hand. Not once did I touch her, but she kept touching me. The judge failed us and told me that was the reason. The second Rally trial, another judge failed us because we didn't have enough drape in the leash. Not once did the leash pull tight, but the judge said there was not enough drape. I was so irritated by both shows I've just about decided to stick with Schutzhund only LOL


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I think another factor is training places. My club offers household obedience, agility, and rally. They have a private competitive obedience class that meets there but it's a different instructor who rents the space and it's more difficult to get into because you can't just sign up and pay at the school like you can with every other class.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Ramage said:


> My goal was to try Rally with her instead, but I'm about to wash my hands of that. In the our first Rally trial she kept touching my hand. Not once did I touch her, but she kept touching me. The judge failed us and told me that was the reason. The second Rally trial, another judge failed us because we didn't have enough drape in the leash. Not once did the leash pull tight, but the judge said there was not enough drape. I was so irritated by both shows I've just about decided to stick with Schutzhund only LOL


That's really weird because I've seen some messes at the shows I've been to. The RA and RE dogs sometimes completely walk away from the handler and they stand there telling them to come back...and still pass. Then there are just things that handler's do to help their dogs (like hold a fist out in front of them) that I don't think should be allowed. I get why rally was created, and its definitely fun, but after seeing obedience and how well behaved the dogs are, its sad to see some of the crazy stuff that goes on in rally. At the trial where we got our first two legs, EVERY DOG QUALIFIED!!! And that includes some that went after food in the distraction bowl...I mean seriously? And in obedience you get NQ for missing a jump or having a second command.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

[QUOTE
Anytime someone comes on to this forum asking about breeding or studding we always ask about Schutzhund, and I get the whole thing about testing the dog in all 3 phases, but I think a part of it is tradition. Why can't a UDX be the same thing? Why don't we ask if people trial in obedience and are working towards that? Seems like even "hardcore" dog people are turning their backs on the AKC trials.[/QUOTE]

Well, if you see protection and tracking as just obedience exercises, then this argument stands. Many people do not.

I did choose a non-Schutzhund titled male as the sire to my Ari and Anik. But I chose him for many reasons including workability, intelligence, pedigree, looks, and references from people who know working dogs.


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## Ramage (Oct 10, 2009)

martemchik said:


> That's really weird because I've seen some messes at the shows I've been to. The RA and RE dogs sometimes completely walk away from the handler and they stand there telling them to come back...and still pass. Then there are just things that handler's do to help their dogs (like hold a fist out in front of them) that I don't think should be allowed. I get why rally was created, and its definitely fun, but after seeing obedience and how well behaved the dogs are, its sad to see some of the crazy stuff that goes on in rally. At the trial where we got our first two legs, EVERY DOG QUALIFIED!!! And that includes some that went after food in the distraction bowl...I mean seriously? And in obedience you get NQ for missing a jump or having a second command.


If you've ever seen a good BH routine, that's how this dog's OB is. I can somewhat understand the first DQ, if the judge questioned whether the dog was touching me or I was touching the dog. The one that really made me angry was the second DQ, when they claimed I didn't have enough drape. Even the other competitor agreed it was a bogus DQ. The leash was slack, even though I didn't have a HUGE drape like I see some Rally people do. To me, I just can't do that. I feel like I'll get tangled in the leash.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

martemchik said:


> Well, you could not care about the advanced titles, but this forum makes such a big deal out of Schutzhund titles and not breeding without them that its interesting that no one mentions the AKC titles which are much more available than any Schutzhund title (just by number of trials and proximity). Most places train following the AKC titles, and yet no one trials. *It's much easier to train for an AKC title than a Schutzhund title which requires all the specialized equipment and the helper.* It just doesn't really make sense why looking for a breeding with a UDX isn't pushed as much as looking for a breeding with a Schutzhund III.
> 
> Selzer, what does tell you something about the dog? What do you want to see in a potential breeding pair? If I'm looking for a breeder I want to see some titling...and you get out of the dog what you put in it. In my mind a UDX stud or bitch should command more money than one with a UD or CDX.


If you look at just the Obedience part, I would have to disagree that an AKC title is much easier than a ScH OB exercise. In some ways the ScH is actually easier, esp. if your dog is somewhat not good with other dogs. I.E. no group exercise! And I don't think there is any out of sight stuff in ScH, is there? Or for that matter, any pure signal exercises like in Utility, is there?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

dogfaeries said:


> LOL, well it's GOING to happen at some point, and all my friends have cameras.


 
Heh! Heh!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Whiteshepherds said:


> I understand this because I can't bring myself to enter any kind of obedience competition...but we train all the time *just in case I ever get a backbone*.
> ........................


 
Give it a try!!!! Doesn't matter what happens as long as you have a good time and your dog doesn't bite anybody and you and your dog are not bitten by anybody!!!

I had one dog (female GSD) who in one show in Novice, as we were passing by these three little kids sitting right on the grass at ringside eating an ice cream cone during the off lead heeling, my bonehead dog decides that she is hungry and walks right over to the three girls and takes a quick lick of each cone and then hustles back to a perfect heel!

I thought the judge, parents and spectators were going to die laughing! (as was I cracking up in the ring and gave Princess a big hug!)

BTW, she passed albeit with a 171!

But it was a HUGE bit of fun!!!!


Try it!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Ramage said:


> I have a dog here that I'd gladly go get a CD and CDX with ASAP but we have an issue with the stand for exam. She's wonderful in public (earned her CGC and TT) and I can trust her, but she can get weird about some strangers invading her space. She won't bite, but she will bark (sometimes). It's my fault, though. I raised her with Schutzhund and a BH in mind and in Schutzhund you don't have a stranger judge coming up and touching them 3 times. Still, my fault, I know.
> 
> My goal was to try Rally with her instead, but I'm about to wash my hands of that. In the our first Rally trial she kept touching my hand. Not once did I touch her, but she kept touching me. The judge failed us and told me that was the reason. The second Rally trial, another judge failed us because we didn't have enough drape in the leash. Not once did the leash pull tight, but the judge said there was not enough drape. I was so irritated by both shows I've just about decided to stick with Schutzhund only LOL


 
A tight leash seems to be a big red flag with rally judges - we just did our first leg in RN and he got an 86 and 12 of the missing points were my fault for a tight leash! And most of the points were due to a momentary tightness! But one must live and learn - hope I do before his next trial!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Franksmom (Oct 13, 2010)

I had several people tell me that a GSD is not the breed of dog to get if you want to do well at AKC Obedience, and they were not talking show vs working line GSD. They were just talking the breed in general. I do not see many GSD's around here at shows and when I do it's the same ones. 
Frank flew through the CD title without any problem, scored well, and at a young age. Now that we're training for the CDX things have become harder he's still training well, but the things we have trouble on I've talked to others and they say "Well he's a GSD" like it's expected.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Franksmom said:


> I had several people tell me that a GSD is not the breed of dog to get if you want to do well at AKC Obedience, and they were not talking show vs working line GSD. They were just talking the breed in general.


But this has not always been the case. There was a time, for a good many years, when GSDs were one of the dominant breeds in the obedience ring. And it was often the same dogs in the obedience ring as in the conformation ring. I've even had judges comment to me directly on that when I show up in the AKC OB ring with a GSD.

Granted, this was back in the "golden years" of the breed when for the most part a GSD was a GSD, not divided into all these sub-types with often vastly different characteristics. 

This isn't the case today. GSD participation is down significantly. The diehard GSD people don't show up, and the diehard obedience people have gravitated to other breeds, primarily Goldens and Aussies it seems.

Is it a change in the GSD people and they just aren't interested in obedience anymore? A change in the dogs and they aren't as well suited to it? A bit of both?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

codmaster said:


> If you look at just the Obedience part, I would have to disagree that an AKC title is much easier than a ScH OB exercise. In some ways the ScH is actually easier, esp. if your dog is somewhat not good with other dogs. I.E. no group exercise! And I don't think there is any out of sight stuff in ScH, is there? Or for that matter, any pure signal exercises like in Utility, is there?


I'm not talking about just the obedience part, if you break it into parts then of course some are easier than others. But if you look at the whole thing, it is easier to train for a UD or CDX than it is to train for a Schutzhund title. A lot of the stuff can be done at home in a pretty small space, or in a decent sized back yard.

In regards to the GSD being not suited for it, why not? What's the problem with the GSD? Which part is "hard" for a GSD to do that isn't just as hard for a lab or a aussie? Some of the stuff just doesn't make sense to me. I get that obedience doesn't test temperament the same same Schutzhund does, but you do find out a lot about your dog through the training/trialing. I don't see what makes a UD dog any less breedworthy than a SchH3 dog, and it seems that in the United States it would be easier to get a UD than a SchH3.


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## ShatteringGlass (Jun 1, 2006)

DunRingill said:


> "UDX is not more than a UD", "does not tell you anything more about the dog." Oh you could NOT be more wrong! Only someone who has never done it would say something like that. and I guess you think an OM doesn't say anything either. Cripes.


 
:thumbup:


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

martemchik said:


> I don't see what makes a UD dog any less breedworthy than a SchH3 dog.


A couple of big differences. One being that while very advanced, a UD is one dimensional in comparison. It is obedience only. Whereas of course SchH involves tracking and protection, phases which test completely different and very important aspects of temperament that are supposed to be there in a GSD. Nothing in AKC tests those things, or the ability of a dog to perform 3 completely different phases of work on the same day. And nothing in AKC is geared specifically toward selecting breeding stock for the GSD breed, based on traits that breed should possess.

Another being that in the AKC ring, performance is based solely on the accuracy of the exercises, which comes down far more to training than it does the dog. Whereas in SchH the judge is also looking at many character traits displayed by the dog throughout the performance, and unlike AKC those character traits are a big part of the critique and scoring.

The UD is of course an incredible accomplishment for dog or handler, but that doesn't change the fact that AKC obedience is not, and never was intended to be, a test of breed worthiness for any breed, GSD included. And comparing something that is a one dimensional test of training suitable for dogs of any breed to something that is a multi-phase test of training *and* temperament developed for specific breeds really is apples vs oranges.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

martemchik said:


> I'm not talking about just the obedience part, if you break it into parts then of course some are easier than others. But if you look at the whole thing, it is easier to train for a UD or CDX than it is to train for a Schutzhund title. A lot of the stuff can be done at home in a pretty small space, or in a decent sized back yard.
> 
> In regards to the GSD being not suited for it, why not? What's the problem with the GSD? Which part is "hard" for a GSD to do that isn't just as hard for a lab or a aussie? Some of the stuff just doesn't make sense to me. I get that obedience doesn't test temperament the same same Schutzhund does, but you do find out a lot about your dog through the training/trialing. I don't see what makes a UD dog any less breedworthy than a SchH3 dog, and it seems that in the United States it would be easier to get a UD than a SchH3.


ScH and AKC OB cannot be compared directly to each other due to the bitework part of ScH - nothing comparable in the AKC world. And to compare the two other than that, you would have to look at Utility PLUS Tracking degree when comparing the difficulty.

With the other breeds - ever see an Aussie doing protection? 

As far as breed worthiness - do you reacll the purpose of the ScH was to establish that. One major factor in that is courage and nerve - the "courage test"! 

What would you consider to be comparable in a UD degree? What do you think would the result be if you came at the average UD titled dog with a stick and whacked them a coup[le of times?

Or maybe the "courage" and nerve of a dog is not a consideration for you to breed them - then of course it wouldn't matter, would it? And a UD would be a good test of trainability.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Chris Wild said:


> A couple of big differences. One being that while very advanced, a UD is one dimensional in comparison. It is obedience only. Whereas of course SchH involves tracking and protection, phases which test completely different and very important aspects of temperament that are supposed to be there in a GSD. Nothing in AKC tests those things, or the ability of a dog to perform 3 completely different phases of work on the same day. And nothing in AKC is geared specifically toward selecting breeding stock for the GSD breed, based on traits that breed should possess.
> 
> Another being that in the AKC ring, performance is based solely on the accuracy of the exercises, which comes down far more to training than it does the dog. Whereas in SchH the judge is also looking at many character traits displayed by the dog throughout the performance, and unlike AKC those character traits are a big part of the critique and scoring.
> 
> The UD is of course an incredible accomplishment for dog or handler, but that doesn't change the fact that AKC obedience is not, and never was intended to be, a test of breed worthiness for any breed, GSD included. And comparing something that is a one dimensional test of training suitable for dogs of any breed to something that is a multi-phase test of training *and* temperament developed for specific breeds really is apples vs oranges.


 
We could have a little better comparison if we included the UDT title vs ScH - then the only major difference in coverage is the bitework. Still can't compare them directly but it is a little closer.

And from the little that I have seen, the judging is very different in ScH and AKC OB. Can use different terms to describe the difference (often determined by which the speaker favors it seems): but maybe "nitpicking" in AKC and "overall dog", "attitude" in ScH are terms that I have heard used. I.E. in one Bh trial i attended 2 of the dogs broke the long down multiple times, a couple of them literally wandered around during off lead heeling, broke during the recall, etc. ALL passed! never would happen in an AKC OB trial at any level. So very hard to compare directly - very different things (And I am doing and enjoying both!)

*"And nothing in AKC is geared specifically toward selecting breeding stock for the GSD breed, based on traits that breed should possess."*

Unfortunately many folks would argue that the CONFORMATION ring would be the AKC thing for this!!!!! AAACCCKKK!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

What would the result be if you came at any untrained dog with a stick and whacked them a few times? I'm not saying the UD is a better test, but even with Schutzhund you are putting a lot of trust in the breeder/trainer that the dog has the courage and isn't just trained to work through it.

I'm not quite sure where you are going with the other breed comment, since I asked what is so hard in the UD ring that an aussie or lab is better at it (I see nothing in there that should stump a GSD any more than it would stump another breed).

I'm not trying to say that Schutzhund isn't a better test, I'm just wondering why no one ever thinks about UD or UDX as being just as good or just slightly worse. It would be tough to put a fearful dog through UDX, and they have to have enough nerve to sit through shows and do the exercises for open and utility and to add to that it has to be done 10 times. I completely agree that its trainability, but you can train a subpar dog to do Schutzhund as well.

A lot of times people on here say that you can train a dog not cut out for Schutzhund to do it, it won't be as fun for you but its possible. It's the same thing with UD, if the dog doesn't like it, you can still make them do it, its just the amount of work it will take.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

My only experience to obedience training was with Schutzhund. When I first saw the exercises that the UD and UDX dogs were doing, I was impressed!!! It riles me too, even though I don't train in those venues, to hear people dismiss the AKC/CanadianKC obedience stuff as fluff.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

martemchik said:


> *What would the result be if you came at any untrained dog with a stick and whacked them a few times?* I'm not saying the UD is a better test, but even with Schutzhund you are putting a lot of trust in the breeder/trainer that the dog has the courage and isn't just trained to work through it.
> 
> I'm not quite sure where you are going with the other breed comment, since I asked what is so hard in the UD ring that an aussie or lab is better at it (I see nothing in there that should stump a GSD any more than it would stump another breed). *Oh, I thought that you were including ScH in the other breed consideration. Whoops*!
> 
> ...


 
I wouldn't try the attacking some untrained dogs (specifically many GSD's from a working line ScH background - would lead to a bite in the majority of cases (and would with my US showline GSD as well). The majority of dogs with a UD or not would back up - thus failing the "courage test" that should be a requirement of any GSD in order to breed.

ANY GSD should never back up from a perceived threat - some I know would think you are playing and would play with you and not bite, but they would never back up in fear.


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## ShatteringGlass (Jun 1, 2006)

This is my favorite dog competing in AKC right now. I saw this dog and handler team in person this past September on Cape Cod. Of course, they won their classes and Highest Scoring Dog in Trial the two days they where entered. AMAZING team.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Yeah mine would definitely play...also during his HIC test he got whacked a few times with a fiberglass rod for coming to close to the evaluator, didn't phase him. He was so into the sheep the thing just bounced off him and he didn't even look at where it was coming from.

I still think if a dog gets through UD or UDX it shows they have enough nerve to do pretty much anything. As hard as it is to get a dog to that level I don't think someone would waste their time trying to get a dog that just wasn't cut out for it all the way through. This really isn't about being breedworthy, but just a comment about how everything on this forum is still based of Schutzhund being the test. I know that chart that flows around doesn't say anything about what you're titling in, but I feel like people get judged differently when they aren't working their dog in Schutzhund.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Watching that video, at least for first part -- couldn't get through it all the way, the computer is too slow, reminded me of the noise. I may never show in obedience again because I cannot hear the judge through background noise, when I am facing in the other direction heeling with the dog.


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## ShatteringGlass (Jun 1, 2006)

Most AKC shows are extremely noisy. And often your ring is right next to another with a dog working in it. 

I don't mind if someone prefers one venue to another, but I don't like people talking about what they don't know. I've met people who've never even seen an AKC trial, let alone compete in one, and tell me it's "easy" or "not as difficult" as Schutzhund obedience. In all honesty, I think they would have a real hard time adjusting from a peaceful, wide open field, with only one other dog laying down at one end, to what most AKC venues are, COMPLETE CHAOS (in my opinion, anyway lol). I train for both venues, as I plan on taking the BH this year. My current dog is highly distractible, so I'm hesitant to enter him for his CD with where he's at right now, so I plan on taking the BH first.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It is chaos, there are dogs everywhere, and some of the owners are not paying attention. Kids, vendors, crates, almost a carnival atmosphere with crowds of people -- like at the IX center in Cleveland, that is the craziest I have been to. The stress is less in the ring because you have at least that space to yourself.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

ShatteringGlass said:


> I don't mind if someone prefers one venue to another, but I don't like people talking about what they don't know. I've met people who've never even seen an AKC trial, let alone compete in one, and tell me it's "easy" or "not as difficult" as Schutzhund obedience.


I have done a fair amount of both. I certainly would not say that AKC is easier. I think it's more difficult in many ways. The precision required, the relatively minor faults that can be an NQ, essentially not being able to mess up anything if you're going to pass. And having to do it 3 times. AKC is definitely more difficult to pass from a strict point and what is allowed vs NQ standpoint. There is much more leeway in SchH and faults result in point losses, not automatic NQs. If one must draw comparisons, I'd say the CD is roughly equivalent to the BH, and the CDX to the SchH obedience, if we're looking just at the exercises and training required, not the temperament test aspect of SchH scoring. And the UD... well, that's a whole different world, even for most AKC peeps.

But while apple to apple, obedience to obedience, I would say AKC is more difficult, if people are going to compare the 2 venues I don't see how anyone could argue that 3 phases which are very different, requiring very different skills, having to all be done and passed in the same day isn't more difficult than doing 1 thing 3 times, and getting to pick and choose where and when those 3 happen. And knowing if you're going for leg 3, and NQ, you can just try again. Those first 2 legs aren't negated and you don't have to start over from scratch as is the case if one fails a phase at a SchH trial.



ShatteringGlass said:


> In all honesty, I think they would have a real hard time adjusting from a peaceful, wide open field, with only one other dog laying down at one end, to what most AKC venues are, COMPLETE CHAOS (in my opinion, anyway lol).


<shrug>I guess it depends on the dog. Some might. A whole lot wouldn't. Nerve is nerve and training is training. A dog of good nerve with good training ought to be able to adjust pretty easily. We've taken 3 dogs off the SchH field and into the AKC and UKC rings cold turkey. First time they ever encountered all that chaos was at the trials. And they did just fine. I've known many other SchH dogs of various breeds who have also done AKC ob with good success, and no real additional training or acclimation. I really don't think that would be that big of a deal, not with a good dog and good training.

Interestingly, I've seen the opposite happen as well. Dogs go from AKC out to do a BH and they are very worried about the open space, quiet, lack of chaos and that one lone dog, way over there on the side of the field staring at them or they completely lose focus and smell the grass, apparently thinking it's play time or explore time or potty time, not work time, when the environmental cues that they are used to having around them are gone. Heck, I've seen AKC people at AKC trials complain if it's being held outdoors on grass rather than indoors. But those are the exceptions. Most do fine. Just as I think most good SchH dogs would do fine going into AKC and the ones who would have a freak out would be the exception.

But then most of the SchH people I know don't just take their dogs from the house to the SchH field, and back again. They work in public, work at other training facilities, work in parking lots, work in Petsmart... so other dogs and distractions and indoor environments shouldn't be that odd to the dog. Just as I'm sure most AKC folk work their dogs out in nice grassy areas and not just indoors on stall mats.


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## Discoetheque (Nov 2, 2011)

Chris Wild said:


> A whole lot wouldn't. Nerve is nerve and training is training. A dog of good nerve with good training ought to be able to adjust pretty easily. We've taken 3 dogs off the SchH field and into the AKC and UKC rings cold turkey. First time they ever encountered all that chaos was at the trials. And they did just fine. I've known many other SchH dogs of various breeds who have also done AKC ob with good success, and no real additional training or acclimation. I really don't think that would be that big of a deal, not with a good dog and good training.
> 
> Interestingly, I've seen the opposite happen as well. Dogs go from AKC out to do a BH and they are very worried about the open space, quiet, lack of chaos and that one lone dog, way over there on the side of the field staring at them or they completely lose focus and smell the grass, apparently thinking it's play time or explore time or potty time, not work time, when the environmental cues that they are used to having around them are gone. Heck, I've seen AKC people at AKC trials complain if it's being held outdoors on grass rather than indoors. But those are the exceptions. Most do fine. Just as I think most good SchH dogs would do fine going into AKC and the ones who would have a freak out would be the exception.
> 
> But then most of the SchH people I know don't just take their dogs from the house to the SchH field, and back again. They work in public, work at other training facilities, work in parking lots, work in Petsmart... so other dogs and distractions and indoor environments shouldn't be that odd to the dog. Just as I'm sure most AKC folk work their dogs out in nice grassy areas and not just indoors on stall mats.


In complete agreement there. A dog with good nerve and training can and will work anywhere and everywhere. 
Discoe practiced for her BH EVERYWHERE. We did long downs in fields. In living rooms. In indoor training facilities. In stores. In parking lots. On track fields. We trained in rain, snow, and sunshine. We trained ten minutes from the house, as well as ten hours from the house, in places she had seen before and places she would see only once ever in her life.

In a way, the BH was her prep for AKC obedience, as she obtained that six months before she ever set foot in an AKC obedience ring. And when we did step foot in the ring, it was at one of the biggest, loudest, most distracting shows our state holds. There were people looming right behind her on the other side of the ring divider, eating and watching, marching past with dogs and crying kids, etc. For me, it's part of the exhilaration of an AKC obedience trial. 

I agree with there being fewer GSDs entered in AKC obedience. I know at least at Cobo yearly, I see the same dogs entered every time, none of which are GSDs. The only GSDs ever entered are all from our kennel. One GSD enthusiast I personally know stopped doing obedience because it was 'beginning to frustrate (her) to pay all this money to enter these shows and her dog kept NQing'. He would repeatedly break the long-down.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think that there is nothing that quite compares to the crazyness and noise of an indoor dog show, but our dogs that we train indoors and maybe take to a match before hand adjust to it ok. It is true that taking an indoor trained dog to an outdoor show to work on grass for the first time, in mud puddles and rain, might just not work out as planned. I took Ninja and Milla to an outdoor show the first time working them outside and Ninja NQ'd for having her nose on the ground the entire time. Milla squeaked by with a qualify. That evening, Ninja took first and Milla second inside. And on the following two days Milla and Ninja passed the rest of their titles outside. 

But people who plan to title indoors, work indoors, and people who plan to title in a field, work in a field. I generally take some classes outdoors, heck I take whatever is available, cheap enough and close enough, indoor and out door. Joy went to training inside at several different facilities, for obedience, agility, and conformation, but the show experience was still crazy because petsmart, street fairs, dog classes -- you really cannot recreate the atmosphere of the big shows. She and one of her littermates did great, and Joy titled in the nineties in three trips into the ring, but we did not place. 

I don't know what would happen if you came chasing after me with a stick, but if I was trained in some sort of martial arts where we work with stick deflection regularly from age eight on up, I might approach the situation differently. Most obedience people teach their dogs not to bite as puppies and discourage most shows of aggression. The dogs are generally well-socialized, and would probably be pretty surprised if someone came after them with a stick. I think we train our dogs differently then people planning on schutzhund from the get go. I don't see that changing much.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I think a good dog would succeed in both venues, that's why I question why we put so much more weight on Schutzhund. For someone (like myself) who doesn't care about the protection aspect or the tracking part and I just want a very obedient dog, the UDX says plenty to me about the nerve of the dog. Just having the ability to go into a show and still pay attention to only the handler, and look just for hand signals without any voice commands, says a lot about the dog.

I think when I'm done with AKC obedience, or at least working towards a UD I'll probably try for the BH just for fun. Plus I have a thing about getting letters after my dog's name.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Obedience, even super high UDX level, does not test for some aspects of temperament and nerve that a GSD should possess. I think it's perfectly fine, even normal, for dog owners to not put much emphasis about the protection aspects or scenting aspects of the breed if they have no use or desire for those. But I do not think it perfectly fine for a breeder to ignore these aspects of the breed.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Chris Wild said:


> Obedience, even super high UDX level, does not test for some aspects of temperament and nerve that a GSD should possess. I think it's perfectly fine, even normal, for dog owners to not put much emphasis about the protection aspects or scenting aspects of the breed if they have no use or desire for those. But I do not think it perfectly fine for a breeder to ignore these aspects of the breed.


Part of me agrees with you but part of me doesn't. I think that getting a UDX shows that the dog has what it takes. I believe that a dog that has achieved that title could've gotten a SchH title if the handler had decided to work it in that, but for convenience reasons (living in the US) they went with the AKC title. I know I'm just making assumptions about the dog but I've met a couple UDX dogs and although they might not have the drive to excel at Schutzhund, they could've achieved that title. At some level my feelings come from the fact that sometimes on this forum a SchH1 title is worth more than a UDX.

The fact is that there are too many people breeding dogs that don't have any titles, or extremely low ranking titles, and it seems wrong to lump someone with UDX dogs into their group just because they don't do Schutzhund.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

martemchik said:


> Part of me agrees with you but part of me doesn't. I think that getting a UDX shows that the dog has what it takes. I believe that a dog that has achieved that title could've gotten a SchH title if the handler had decided to work it in that, but for convenience reasons (living in the US) they went with the AKC title. I know I'm just making assumptions about the dog but I've met a couple UDX dogs and although they might not have the drive to excel at Schutzhund, they could've achieved that title. At some level my feelings come from the fact that sometimes on this forum a SchH1 title is worth more than a UDX.
> 
> The fact is that there are too many people breeding dogs that don't have any titles, or extremely low ranking titles, and it seems wrong to lump someone with UDX dogs into their group just because they don't do Schutzhund.


I think you are continuously choosing to ignore the simple fact that schutzhund has 3 phases whereas the UDX is very one-dimensional. Just keep in mind that schutzhund has 3 phases for the dog to pass in a single day, and each phase showcases desired traits (or faults in desired traits) of the GSD. 

As impressive as a UDX title is, it's not geared towards testing the workability and "breedability" (?) of the GSD. Schutzhund, developed as a breed-test for the GSD specifically, is. It may not be perfect, and Schutzhund has its faults, but it is the best system we currently have for evaluating German Shepherds. AKC obedience, while it showcases biddability of the dog, training ability of the handler, and other interesting things simply doesn't have comparable exercises to all three phases of a Schutzhund trial.

Edit: just wanted to add, I'm not slighting AKC obedience. I don't have AKC titles so I can't say how easy/difficult it is to get them. From what I saw and read, CDX, UD, UDX, etc are very very respectable titles and I'd be more than happy to speak to and take advice from trainers whose dogs earned these titles. But as far as AKC obedience titles for selective breeding and improvement of the GSDs Schtzhund still stands as the "golden standard" IMO


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

ayoitzrimz said:


> I think you are continuously choosing to ignore the simple fact that schutzhund has 3 phases whereas the UDX is very one-dimensional. Just keep in mind that schutzhund has 3 phases for the dog to pass in a single day, and each phase showcases desired traits (or faults in desired traits) of the GSD.
> 
> As impressive as a UDX title is, it's not geared towards testing the workability and "breedability" (?) of the GSD. Schutzhund, developed as a breed-test for the GSD specifically, is. It may not be perfect, and Schutzhund has its faults, but it is the best system we currently have for evaluating German Shepherds. AKC obedience, while it showcases biddability of the dog, training ability of the handler, and other interesting things simply doesn't have comparable exercises to all three phases of a Schutzhund trial.


According to who?!?! Its the best because of tradition? because anytime someone comes on here and asks about a breeder that is the first thing that is asked? I'm not ignoring that schutzhund has 3 phases, I'm just saying that I think you can see those traits and other traits when a dog gets its UDX. Again, I have no issue with the fact that schutzhund is that breed test, I think that it works wonders, but to uninformed buyers it means nothing! It means, someone, a long time ago, came up with this test, and since then all dogs have been measured by it, it tells me nothing about the dog itself except that it has good nerves and good drive to do what is asked of it in THAT test.

What it tells the breeder/handler/trainer is how special the dog is, it tells informed people that can watch the dog, how much better/worse it is than another dog.

I'm looking at this from the perspective of a uninformed person. I do know what it takes to get a UDX (I'm training for it), I have no idea what Schutzhund takes, and I respect all dogs that do it the same, if I had the time and there was a training ground within 30 minutes of me, I'd do it too.

I think this sentence will summarize my thoughts best...To a potential PET owner, a UDX and a Schutzhund 3 title would tell the same thing about the dog, that it has the nerve, obedience, and trainability to do what is asked of it.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

martemchik said:


> According to who?!?! Its the best because of tradition? because anytime someone comes on here and asks about a breeder that is the first thing that is asked? I'm not ignoring that schutzhund has 3 phases, *I'm just saying that I think you can see those traits and other traits when a dog gets its UDX.* Again, I have no issue with the fact that schutzhund is that breed test, I think that it works wonders, but to uninformed buyers it means nothing! It means, someone, a long time ago, came up with this test, and since then all dogs have been measured by it, it tells me nothing about the dog itself except that it has good nerves and good drive to do what is asked of it in THAT test.
> 
> What it tells the breeder/handler/trainer is how special the dog is, it tells informed people that can watch the dog, how much better/worse it is than another dog.
> 
> ...


I don't understand how you can possibly compare a UDX to a Schutzhund title when the titles themselves contain completely different aspects in the sport. There is no tracking and protection phases of a UDX title, so how can you determine if the dog is capable of doing it without actually witnessing it?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

martemchik said:


> I'm just saying that I think you can see those traits and other traits when a dog gets its UDX.


No, you cannot. Absolutely nothing in obedience tests for the dog's ability to handle a threat, respond appropriately to one, remain clear headed and responsive when doing so. A couple weekends ago our SchH club had a seminar with an AKC person who has put UDX on multiple dogs. Her breed of choice is the Sheltie. I've known her for a while and see her and her dogs frequently at classes, matches and trials. They are delightful little dogs with stunning obedience. And I'd bet the farm that not a single one of those would react the way a GSD should to a threat, or be able to protect the owner and show the courage, hardness and tenacity required to get that job done. And that says nothing negative about them as Shelties because they're Shelties, and therefore those traits are not expected in that breed. In a GSD they are. For a UDX, they don't matter.

There are many important aspects of temperament that level of obedience tests. But there are many it does not. 



martemchik said:


> I have no idea what Schutzhund takes


Not to sound nasty or condescending, but that really sort of sums it up right there. How can one argue for or against the value of something, or compare it to something else, when they know nothing about it?



martemchik said:


> To a potential PET owner, a UDX and a Schutzhund 3 title would tell the same thing about the dog, that it has the nerve, obedience, and trainability to do what is asked of it.


It would depend on the desires of the pet owner. If their only interest is in those obedience/trainability aspects, certainly it would be sufficient. If the desire other traits that a GSD should possess, traits that set it apart from the majority of "pet" breeds, then it would not be sufficient.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

As a buyer of German Shepherd dogs who participates in nearly a dozen different sports and performance events, I would not look at a UDX dog and assume that dog "has what it takes" to title in SchH and SDA, sorry. I was watching a video from this thread and while the dog was very nice and obviously a top dog with phenomenal training, I personally was left feeling a little "meh" because the dog was not demonstrating much if anything of what I find valuable and desirable in a GSD, especially one I intend to work in protection venues. JMHO


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Liesje said:


> As a buyer of German Shepherd dogs who participates in nearly a dozen different sports and performance events, I would not look at a UDX dog and assume that dog "has what it takes" to title in SchH and SDA, sorry. I was watching a video from this thread and while the dog was very nice and obviously a top dog with phenomenal training, I personally was left feeling a little "meh" because the dog was not demonstrating much if anything of what I find valuable and desirable in a GSD, especially one I intend to work in protection venues. JMHO


I absolutely agree...that dog was also not a German Shepherd.

Here is another question. We all want the breed to adhere to a standard, the standard can be tested for, and yet the majority of dogs bred in this country are not tested for it anyways. A lot of people have brought up the idea that the AKC, or the GSDCA should mandate this testing just like the SV does in Germany (not in this thread, but in others). Well in Germany, Schutzhund training and titles are a lot easier (more convenient) to achieve. So, in a perfect world, we would all have the ability to train in Schutzhund, and all breeding stock would then be expected by the market to be trained in Schutzhund. As it lies today, that is impossible, and I don't think this will ever be achieved in the United States. Now for the question, wouldn't it be at least a step in the right direction to mandate a CDX or a UD to breed a dog, something that a lot more people have the ability to train in?

Again, I'm not in any way discounting what Schutzhund tests, I believe its a great test and I'm in complete agreement with what everyone said about it being a breed test. But it just seems like too high of a goal to expect out of not just American breeders, but the American pet owners.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

martemchik said:


> I absolutely agree...that dog was also not a German Shepherd.
> 
> Here is another question. We all want the breed to adhere to a standard, the standard can be tested for, and yet the majority of dogs bred in this country are not tested for it anyways. A lot of people have brought up the idea that the AKC, or the GSDCA should mandate this testing just like the SV does in Germany (not in this thread, but in others). Well in Germany, Schutzhund training and titles are a lot easier (more convenient) to achieve. So, in a perfect world, we would all have the ability to train in Schutzhund, and all breeding stock would then be expected by the market to be trained in Schutzhund. As it lies today, that is impossible, and I don't think this will ever be achieved in the United States. Now for the question, wouldn't it be at least a step in the right direction to mandate a CDX or a UD to breed a dog, something that a lot more people have the ability to train in?
> 
> Again, I'm not in any way discounting what Schutzhund tests, I believe its a great test and I'm in complete agreement with what everyone said about it being a breed test. But it just seems like too high of a goal to expect out of not just American breeders, but the American pet owners.


If you are a serious, knowledgeable, committed breeder, access to a schutzhund club should not stop you... There is a club in every state. I wouldn't buy a GSD from someone who got a UDX instead of an IPOIII just because he/she "didn't have access to a schutzhund club". Just my opinion.

A CDX, UD, etc doesn't say much about the dog as far as guarding, clear-headedness, hunt drive, etc etc etc... But this has been stated by people much more knowledgeable than me already so I don't know if it's even a step in the right direction


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

ayoitzrimz said:


> If you are a serious, knowledgeable, committed breeder, access to a schutzhund club should not stop you... There is a club in every state. I wouldn't buy a GSD from someone who got a UDX instead of an IPOIII just because he/she "didn't have access to a schutzhund club". Just my opinion.
> 
> A CDX, UD, etc doesn't say much about the dog as far as guarding, clear-headedness, hunt drive, etc etc etc... But this has been stated by people much more knowledgeable than me already so I don't know if it's even a step in the right direction


So just because there is a club in your state you have access to it? There is a club an hour away from me...I don't have access to it due to my schedule. What you're expecting is a breeder, that has nothing better to do than work their dogs, have no other source of income, and still survive. I'm just stating this as an observation of why conformation is so much more "popular" in this country than Schutzhund. Breeders have the ability to train for it, it is much more affordable and a much smarter economic move than training for Schutzhund.

Now, I'm not saying that breeders shouldn't do shutzhund, but even with a requirement of a CDX or UD, that would be the minimum (like the SchH 1 is in Germany). Like if the AKC said, we won't register dogs that come from litters where the parents don't have this title, wouldn't it help out the breed just a little bit? You could then have just a little bit more knowledgeable breeders, that care enough about their dogs to train them to that level? Then maybe those byb's that still want their dogs registered would get that title, then learn more and more and more, and work their way up to do Schutzhund?

And I understand that what WE (people involved in the discussion and most of the forum) want from a breeder is much different than what the average American expects from their breeder. Trust me, my next dog (I already have the dam picked out) will come from Schutzhund lines, I know the owners/breeders and I've been training with them for over a year (not in Schutzhund), but I'm thinking more of the average owner, not one that will be showing/trialing in any of the available arenas.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Actually, I would consider the SV system to be a huge failure and would NOT want to see any breeding requirements mandated. When they become required is when people start watering down the standards and the tests, or just outright cheating and miraculously having "titled" dogs who never set foot on a trial field in front of a judge, etc.... Rather than the dogs and breeders rising to the occasion, the bar is lowered to fit the masses. Leave it up to the individual breeders, and then let the buyers decide who is worth supporting. Improving quality of dogs being bred starts with educating the buying public. 

But not just with regard to a list of things to check off a list to decide if a breeder is good or bad, but with regard to what those things mean. Cliff's current "Theory vs Reality" tread is all about that, and worth a read.

Titles don't make a dog, or indicate it is breedworthy or not. They provide a minimum standard, which sometimes dogs who really aren't breedworthy can still pass. The main value of titles is that the road to achieving them provides a means through which the people training the dog can test for a myriad of important traits and uncover the true character of the dog. The title really only proves that someone, somewhere, spent a whole lot of time with that dog and knows that dog inside and out. The more that was required of the dog, and the greater variety of things required, the more is learned. But from there, it is up to that person to use that information properly to make good breeding choices. Some will, some won't.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

martemchik said:


> I absolutely agree...that dog was also not a German Shepherd.
> 
> Here is another question. We all want the breed to adhere to a standard, the standard can be tested for, and yet the majority of dogs bred in this country are not tested for it anyways.


Right...and I'm only interested in actual German Shepherd dogs.

I can't speak for other people but I don't purchase dogs whose lineage doesn't demonstrate the qualities that I'm looking for. If some of the dogs have a CDX or UD I think that is nice but it has no bearing on my decision, which is primarily made by understanding the pedigree and watching the dogs themselves in action. I would expect that if AKC obedience is important to you, then you would get puppies from breeding programs that participate in AKC obedience. But this is not convincing me that it has any merit to what I'm looking for in a dog. How does it test prey drive, fight drive, the ability to work independently (use instinct and show self-control and problem solving without the handler's guidance or correction), speed, courage (the ability to stay in a situation under pressure and remain confident, guard rather than just find security in biting or fleeing), etc? It doesn't test these things and I don't expect it to.


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## MilesNY (Aug 12, 2010)

This thread has actually made me want to start posting on this forum! 



So hello everyone!



To the original poster, I have done both, have my first schutzhund dog now and we plan on getting our 1 in June. I have volunteered at many AKC events and I take nothing away from those dogs but it in NO WAY is the same thing a getting a IPO title. As for how crazy it is around the ring, that is conditioning for the dog. While schutzhund doesn't have a group down stay or anything, during my BH test, I had to leave Dante, tied to a fence in a row of other dogs and walk out of sight. He had to remain calm and non-reactive to a dog being walked by as well as the crowd of people. In addition to that I also had to be encircled by everyone attending the event that day, with my dog while the judge talked to us. Talk about testing nerves, this was 40 plus people circled around, close enough that I could touch them, all staring at my dog and I. This was nothing I had prepared for as it is the judge who gets to decide how he wants to test during the temperament portion. Then there was the traffic portion where cars with booming stereo systems and people on bikes drove by with in feet, while all of the dogs out for the BH walked along together. The obedience is more "relaxed" then an AKC title however, the dog cannot looked stressed. I have been to a lot of AKC obedience practice runs and trails, where the dogs look very stressed and not happy to be in the ring at all. Even if they did the whole routine perfect, in Schutzhund they would be marked down. Let’s not forget the fact the BH is just the basic temperament test for schutzhund, it is not meant to be seen as a formal title like the rest are. It is just saying, your dog is good enough to go on to trail.



Then when you are looking at a breeding standpoint. It isn't just getting the title that breeders are looking at, but how the dog handles the trained for it, what areas are strengths and what could be improved on. Then matching that up with another dog who would match or improve those areas. What in a CDX or UD would tell you that?


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

Chris Wild said:


> Actually, I would consider the SV system to be a huge failure and would NOT want to see any breeding requirements mandated. When they become required is when people start watering down the standards and the tests, or just outright cheating and miraculously having "titled" dogs who never set foot on a trial field in front of a judge, etc.... Rather than the dogs and breeders rising to the occasion, the bar is lowered to fit the masses. Leave it up to the individual breeders, and then let the buyers decide who is worth supporting. Improving quality of dogs being bred starts with educating the buying public.
> 
> But not just with regard to a list of things to check off a list to decide if a breeder is good or bad, but with regard to what those things mean. Cliff's current "Theory vs Reality" tread is all about that, and worth a read.
> 
> Titles don't make a dog, or indicate it is breedworthy or not. They provide a minimum standard, which sometimes dogs who really aren't breedworthy can still pass. The main value of titles is that the road to achieving them provides a means through which the people training the dog can test for a myriad of important traits and uncover the true character of the dog. The title really only proves that someone, somewhere, spent a whole lot of time with that dog and knows that dog inside and out. The more that was required of the dog, and the greater variety of things required, the more is learned. But from there, it is up to that person to use that information properly to make good breeding choices. Some will, some won't.


I know where my next pup will be coming from


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Chris Wild said:


> The title really only proves that someone, somewhere, spent a whole lot of time with that dog and knows that dog inside and out. The more that was required of the dog, and the greater variety of things required, the more is learned. But from there, it is up to that person to use that information properly to make good breeding choices. Some will, some won't.


So although the AKC titles may not tell everything there is to know about the dog, they do tell us exactly what you've said...that the breeders have a spent a whole lot of time with their dogs. That seems important. 

I don't believe the AKC should impose the same rules as the SV for breeding requirements but I do think they should require dogs to meet some kind of minimum requirement before they can get their CH. Whether it's titles or passing tests for herding, tracking or temperament, it would be a step in the right direction.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

MilesNY said:


> Then when you are looking at a breeding standpoint. It isn't just getting the title that breeders are looking at, but how the dog handles the trained for it, what areas are strengths and what could be improved on. Then matching that up with another dog who would match or improve those areas. What in a CDX or UD would tell you that?


It would tell you exactly that!!! It would tell you how it handles being trained for it. Now, if you were to completely ignore that and still go on and breed the dog then its the breeders fault. But the same thing can be done in Schutzhund, a dog can be made to pass (look at what Chris wrote) and many dogs have been known to pass that aren't up to the standards the test has set. Although I have not trialed or trained for Shutzhund, I know enough about it to know that dogs get by and get titles even though they aren't truly to the standard.

Again, I wasn't trying to dismiss Schutzhund, I just think some AKC titles might be a better "minimum requirement." There is a lot going on about Schutzhund always being the minimum requirement and that will NEVER happen in this country. But then I look at what Chris wrote, and it opens up a whole new perspective. I have also been following Cliff's thread and I think we're putting too much into the hands of the consumer. A consumer that wants a GSD because of Rin Tin Tin, because of the bin Laden raid, because of the police dog down the street, and one that doesn't care to drive for hours to meet breeders, but will look at the local newspaper, or maybe do a google search for a breeder near by.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Well, I'd never support AKC titles because I don't like the "type" of German Shepherd dog the AKC promotes so they're not getting any of my money anymore (other than the registration which I'm forced to do since it's the only one the FCI/AWDF will accept). For me it's not a matter of whether or not my dog can do the exercises but which organizations I'm willing to pay good money to support.


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## MilesNY (Aug 12, 2010)

If your whole point is to try and better backyard breeders, that won’t work either. Half of them don’t register dogs anyway and others will just simply switch to a registry that will not make them title a dog in anything. The schutzhund title isn’t the perfect credit for breeding. I know lots of sch dogs who I wouldn’t want a puppy from at all. I think this also goes to what type of dog you like. From show lines, to working lines, and then even in working lines, how much defense drive vs prey you like. What sort or hardness you like. This is why it is important to watch the dog yourself, get honest assessments from the owners or breeders of the dog. In schutzhund you are at least dipping into those drives for training so you can gain more insight than in AKC obedience training. 
Right now I have a certain type of dog, based on his bloodlines and how he works. I have a good feel on what type of dog I would want to potentially breed him to, to produce the type of dog I am looking to produce. So when I go shopping, I know what I am going to ask and look for in my next dog. There is a place for different temperaments within a breed. It is the breeders job to match those temperaments up based on what they are looking to produce and a lot of it is individual preference. Some breeders don’t like a dog that can’t settle or turn off, other’s love it. Some breeders want a flashier working dog, while other’s don’t care. Then it is the job of the consumer to go out and educate themselves as to what they are looking for in a dog and find a breeder who’s dogs match that. Forcing people to have titles to breed dogs it never going to make the breed better. Forcing people to educate themselves to not waste their money will. Think about people on this board who first purchased a BYB dog or maybe a dog fell in their lap and then as they started training and learning more about different sports went to a better source for their next dog. Basic marketing… the consumer drives the market…


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

The thread started out with the number of GSDs titled in obedience-and now people are talking about breedworthiness-I don't thing getting a title in either venue has to always be about breedworthiness. I also think that their is a huge difference between a breeder who may have already titled mutiple dogs and someone who might just be doing it for the first time to say that you just went in a did it cold turkey- I think that it is unfortunate that people make comments like it is just a CD because whatever the title is its time that you spent with your dog 

Why Get An Obedience Title?


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Oh and I am so sick of threads on BYB I could hurl isn't there anything else to talk about


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## ShatteringGlass (Jun 1, 2006)

AKC is obedience is about obedience, how well the dog is trained and performs the given exercises to the judges standard of perfection. It is not a character or temperament test. AKC obedience is desgined for all AKC breeds, Schutzhund is designed specifically to evalutate GSDs for breeding purposes.

If most GSD people are in the breed to breed, they aren't going to focus on AKC when Schutzhund is the standard test for breeding stock to be evaluated under.

I've seen stressed dogs in the AKC ring, and honestly, they don't score well because they are too stressed to perform the exercises correctly. Often they NQ. You wont see very many stressed dogs competing for UDX or OTCH, as people who train for these levels simply wouldn't work with a dog that can't handle the amount of training and competition it requires to achieve these. But in regular titling classes, yes, you will see some dogs who stress, but I've seen that in all kinds of canine competitions and venues.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

The only people using Schutzhund as a breed test in the US are working line breeders, the majority of GSDs are still being tested in the AKC conformation ring, at least that's what I see in my area. So calling it a test doesn't count when you don't have to do it to breed your dog. Although AKC obedience doesn't test the temperament and all the other stuff, a dog that is trained through UDX is most likely of sound nerve and temperament as I don't imagine one without strong nerves being able to complete all that is asked of it while getting those titles.

All I'm saying, is that as much pressure as everyone on this forum puts on breeders to get their dogs trained in Schutzhund, it clearly doesn't work. Educating one buyer at a time doesn't affect the whole breed the way that making a breeder get certain titles would. There is still a large majority of people that if they are looking for a PB dog, they just want to make sure its registered with the AKC (to them its a sign of approval). Many also know the other registries are garbage and don't mean anything. I'm just thinking a minimum would be a step in the right direction, cause clearly what is going on now isn't helping anyone.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

ShatteringGlass said:


> If most GSD people are in the breed to breed, they aren't going to focus on AKC when Schutzhund is the standard test for breeding stock to be evaluated under.


The first Schutzhund trial was held in the US in I believe, 1970 (have to check that). What were breeders doing in the US to test their dogs before then?


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

holland said:


> The thread started out with the number of GSDs titled in obedience-and now people are talking about breedworthiness-I don't think getting a title in either venue has to always be about breedworthiness.
> I think that it is unfortunate that people make comments like it is just a CD because whatever the title is its time that you spent with your dog
> Why Get An Obedience Title?


Excellant post Holland and nice link.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

holland said:


> Oh and I am so sick of threads on BYB I could hurl


Me too. 

I also liked your previous post.

White Shepherds: Good question about what were breeders doing pre 1970.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I also agree that titles in any venue doesn't give an indication of breedworthiness.

Tho I haven't gone into the obed ring in some time, when I did, I don't know how many dogs I'd see that would go in, do a great routine come out of the ring and try to nail someone or some dog. 

I saw alot of 'ring wise' dogs , take them out of the ring into real life and 'come' wouldn't be in their vocabulary. 

I'm sure people see this with any venue..While titles are GREAT, and an accomplishment to be very proud of, they don't 'make' the dog atleast not 'every' dog.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Here's the thing about down playing titles, it has to do with Cliff's thread. The huge majority 95%+ of people, have no idea what to look for in a dog. They don't have any goals in mind, they want a great house pet, they want something that will be obedient, and something that will bark at noise outside. So for people that know what they are looking for in an animal, and have a set job in mind, of course a title means nothing. But to those that don't know, they can look up what the letters behind a dog's name mean, and they can think, "wow that's cool" or "man, that shows me that dog can do x." Expecting the BUYER to increase their expectations is a pipe dream, and much more difficult in my mind than telling people that want to register with the AKC they have to spend a little bit of time and money to achieve a certain title, which will at least prove that they care enough about the dogs to work them up to that level.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Whiteshepherds said:


> The first Schutzhund trial was held in the US in I believe, 1970 (have to check that). What were breeders doing in the US to test their dogs before then?


The first Schutzhund trial that was held in the US was in 1970. The first Schutzhund trial ever was in Germany in 1901.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

When I put the CD on my first two dogs there were over 150 entries in BOTH Novice A and Novice B and they were each divided into two classes. When I did my last CD there were not even 75 dogs in Novice A nor Novice B. Now entries are so small that often you can trial twice in one day and if you are really good put 6 legs on a dog in a weekend (Friday through Sunday). Obedience has been dying for a long time. Now there are much more fun things for people to do like Rally and Agility.


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## ShatteringGlass (Jun 1, 2006)

I feel I am one the few people that thinks obedience IS fun haha. I put a RN on both my dogs, but honestly, I don't really like Rally. I've trained agility obstacles, but in the forseable future, I'm not into trying to compete in it.

I think people like qualifying and feeling like they got their entries worth. Rally is much easier to qualify in than regular obedience, that could contribute to it as well.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I agree with you. I love obedience, though I no longer care for AKC obedience (prefer SchH/IPO). Rally doesn't hold enough interest for me and I don't have time to put into becoming good at agility.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Oh I don't know. I liked obedience ok, and as I said, I have placed with a better percentage in obedience than in Rally. And I NQ'd my first time in both rings, but then did not NQ again in obedience until my third leg on Babs (my last CD). I had so much trouble hearing at that show that I made a lot of mistakes, and clearly got the judge ticked off at me. Both the stewards in the figure 8 insisted I did not tell my dog to sit, but she continued to rail on me over and over again about why I can't do that (and I didn't) that I was literally shaking. Sorry, I really am in it to train the dog and evaluate the dog, but mostly it is for fun. I actually like getting ribbons. It is not fun to make mistakes in the ring because you cannot hear, and then to get yelled at for a long time in front of God and everyone for something you did not do. 

Rally is more laid back. The judges may NQ you, but generally they are nice about it and will tell you what you did wrong with out pounding on you. I am pretty thick skinned, but I have no desire to do obedience. I might do it again, someday. 

Also, too many obedience people are snobs. Sorry dudes. But the competitors around here are the most stuck up people I have ever met. One sat down next to me and said, "The rally dogs really suck today, they cannot keep them in the ring." I have seen obedience dogs leave the ring, but whatever. 

I had taken the class in Rally, and I took offense and said, not all the rally dogs sucked, my dog did very well. 

She said, "but your dog is trained for obedience."

I told, her, "No, that was a different dog, this is my obedience dog." 

So she gave me a nasty look.

Over and over and over again these people say and do things that prove they have complete disdain for Rally -- hey we paid our entrance fees too! Go practice in front of your own ring -- but they do not want to mess up the obedience dogs. So they practice in front of the Rally ring. Jerks. 

I have also seen one of them abusing a puppy at our club's show. She was talked about in many circles after the fact, so it wasn't just me being a bleeding heard dog person. They want HIT and really, I do not think they care all that much about the dogs. Not all of them, but some of them. They care about the competition. They care about the ribbons. They hold it against the dog if they do not win. 

We rally people are happy to get our green ribbons. Other ribbons are a bonus. Yes we compete against ourselves, and getting the placements make our day, but most of the time we blame ourselves for messing up, not our dogs. If the dog really was at fault, it was our fault for entering them too soon, or not training properly, or over training.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I'm a real weenie at the thought of getting in the ring, but I'm going to _make_ myself do a variety of things with the girls. Like I've said before, I'm their biggest handicap. 

I started obedience classes with Carly this week. The school teaches competition obedience, rally, and some beginning agility, also TDI certification. I'm going for it!! I can tell you, I'd be delighted to get those green qualifying ribbons.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

ShatteringGlass said:


> I feel I am one the few people that thinks obedience IS fun haha. I put a RN on both my dogs, but honestly, I don't really like Rally. I've trained agility obstacles, but in the forseable future, I'm not into trying to compete in it.
> 
> I think people like qualifying and feeling like they got their entries worth. Rally is much easier to qualify in than regular obedience, that could contribute to it as well.



I agree, obedience is fun! and my dogs think it's fun too. They even enjoy Rally. It's all a big circle, my dogs enjoy it because I enjoy it, and I enjoy it because THEY find it fun. 

One of the reasons I put Rally titles on my dogs is because I teach a Rally class, and figure it's a good way to make sure I fully understand the current rules. Plus I think it's a great way to introduce a young dog to competition. It's fairly stress-free and a lot easier than traditional obedience.....if your dog understands basics (sit, down, with me, come front, stay until released) it's easy to Q in Rally. Most NQ's are the handler's fault! 

Mikey surprises me....he turned 9 in February and still loves going into the rally and obedience rings. It's hard not to laugh at him as he jumps way higher than necessary and leaps high in the air on every finish. What a goofus.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

dogfaeries said:


> I'm a real weenie at the thought of getting in the ring, but I'm going to _make_ myself do a variety of things with the girls. Like I've said before, I'm their biggest handicap.
> 
> I started obedience classes with Carly this week. The school teaches competition obedience, rally, and some beginning agility, also TDI certification. I'm going for it!! I can tell you, I'd be delighted to get those green qualifying ribbons.


Go for it!

Everyone gets so nervous thinking everyone in the world is watching. Truth is, only the judge is watching, and MAYBE your close friends. Maybe. Very often you'll come out of the ring and say "Did you SEE what happened in there?" and you'll get a few blank looks, because often no one saw anything. So there's no reason to worry! Besides, I've never seen anyone die from an NQ....trust me, over the years I've NQ'd just about every way possible, and it hasn't killed me yet!


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

oh, believe me, my friends will all be banned from being ringside!  Which might be an issue, if I ever want to enter _our_ GSD club's obedience and rally trial, LOL.

I'm really going to try and train my dog to the best of my ability, and not enter until I feel like we both know what we are doing.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

dogfaeries said:


> I'm really going to try and train my dog to the best of my ability, and not enter until I feel like we both know what we are doing.


That's a good plan. One of the most common mistakes is entering before BOTH the dog and handler are fully prepared!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Lisa, I remember those days of HUGE entries, my gosh, I always tried to get my entries in as soon as they opened, thinking this would get me in the ring earlier, sometimes it did , sometimes it didn't.

Waiting around for those long sits/downs was a pain I liked obedience trialing tho my dog(s) did well, it made for loooooong days and alot of down time.

Now, your right, I see hardly any obed entries and much more Rally. I think people like Rally better because it's seemingly not as strict/regimental and it's a little more upbeat.

Sue, I agree about alot of obed people being snobs,,yeppie, the "my dog is better than your dog" thing..


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I've seen plenty of rally snobs too, I've even heard a lady go "she got what?!?!?!" even though her dog wasn't that impressive either (both scored in the 80s). Rally dogs aren't as impressive as the obedience dogs though. Unless they're trained in both and do it successfully, I've seen just a mess at rally shows. Let's put it this way...a dog that can qualify in RN usually isn't anywhere close to being able to qualify in obedience. My first rally show, a lady had her fist out in front of her dogs face the whole time (like she had a treat in it) and the dog just followed the fist through the whole course.

I'm trialing in rally also, but nothing anyone can ever say to me will convince me that its anywhere near the level that obedience tests. Rally is fun, it probably tells you less about the dog than any other trial though, you can pretty much say heel the whole time through the ring, keep the dog's attention on you any way you can, and tell it sit 30 times until it finally does it. It's not really showing how well trained the dog is.

But I just have a question with all this "titles don't matter" stuff. So what you're all saying is that if I work my dog, decide he's breed worthy, and can convince 10 potential puppy buyers that he's a great sire and will make great puppies, I should breed him? No matter what it does to the breed over all? Just a weird mindset to me since most of the ideas floating around this forum have been about the betterment of the whole breed and not letting one person decide whether their dog is breedworthy. Again, correct me if I'm wrong in my understanding.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

martemchik said:


> I've seen plenty of rally snobs too, I've even heard a lady go "she got what?!?!?!" even though her dog wasn't that impressive either (both scored in the 80s). Rally dogs aren't as impressive as the obedience dogs though. Unless they're trained in both and do it successfully, I've seen just a mess at rally shows. Let's put it this way...a dog that can qualify in RN usually isn't anywhere close to being able to qualify in obedience. My first rally show, a lady had her fist out in front of her dogs face the whole time (like she had a treat in it) and the dog just followed the fist through the whole course.
> 
> I'm trialing in rally also, but nothing anyone can ever say to me will convince me that its anywhere near the level that obedience tests. Rally is fun, it probably tells you less about the dog than any other trial though, you can pretty much say heel the whole time through the ring, keep the dog's attention on you any way you can, and tell it sit 30 times until it finally does it. It's not really showing how well trained the dog is.
> 
> But I just have a question with all this "titles don't matter" stuff. So what you're all saying is that if I work my dog, decide he's breed worthy, and can convince 10 potential puppy buyers that he's a great sire and will make great puppies, I should breed him? No matter what it does to the breed over all? Just a weird mindset to me since most of the ideas floating around this forum have been about the betterment of the whole breed and not letting one person decide whether their dog is breedworthy. Again, correct me if I'm wrong in my understanding.


Like many people have said before, schutzhund titles to a good breeder is just a tool to evaluate the dog. As (I think Chris) said all a schutzhund title says is that someone worked a lot with this dog. Not a lot of obedience, but a lot of obedience + a lot of protection + a lot of tracking. 

That person (call him responsible breeder A) now knows about the dog more than any one else. responsible breeder A knows how much pressure the dog can take, how focused on the task he can stay, how biddable he is, how his nerves are, his drives are, whether he can keep his drive in balance and not leak all over the place etc etc. 

So responsible breeder A now can make an informed choice as to whether that dog is breed worthy. Now since A is responsible, knowledgeable, and set breeding plans for producing the type of GSDs he/she would want to bring to better the breed, A will make a decision that is likely to be a good one.

Irresponsible breeder B - this paragraph is short. If schutzhund titles were a requirement he would cheat his way or buy titled dogs and mix-and-match as he/she pleases. If schutzhund titles are not required he/she will simply not get them.

With all that said, my point above is that just because there are a few people who manipulate the system, doesn't mean the system is broken. 

Now to my next point, why can't a UDX be considered on the same standard as IPOIII? Well, it simply doesn't test enough different aspects of the GSD to be a good "baseline" for evaluation. It's a very admirable title, but without working the dog under the stress / excitement / full-on drive of protection training and without working the dog under the independence / long single-task focus / hunt drive of tracking training there isn't really much to go by.

Again, I respect AKC and their titles, but the fact is they simply do not test enough of the dog's character and training for them can be done by most obedient breeds. A sheltie can do wonderfully in AKC obedience (and in schutzhund obedience if they can get over that jump  ) but does that mean he has the characteristics of a GSD? The answer is, we don't know  We don't know because we haven't seen enough of the dog (as the handler/owner) while training for this AKC title to know. 

So, in my opinion, titles DO matter. Schutzhund titles DO matter. They serve as a baseline saying "ok this dog was worked by someone for a long time, this dog can handle himself under pressure, can be in control under pressure, can work independently and for long periods (tracking is very intensive on a dog), and with obedience phase we also know about the dog's biddability, excitement for the work, ability to work with the handler, etc etc - those things can be uncovered with AKC obedience training, but not the rest of them.

Sorry for the long post! I just find it hard to express myself online sometimes 

P.S.
Now - for a dog OWNER the situation is totally different. A GSD owner's job is to get the dog some basic obedience, a sense of purpose, a job to keep his mind occupied, food, shelter, and lots of socialization to make that dog the best ambassador of the breed that ever was (of course, that's impossible because MY dog is the best -- jk jk  ).
Anything else, is that little extra that really turns the bond on between owner and dog.
So as a pet owner, socialize, get some obedience, and then decide what you want to do with the dog - if you enjoy Schutzhund do schutzhund, if you enjoy AKC obedience do AKC obedience, SAR etc etc. That's just one added bonus of having the most versatile breed


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

martemchik said:


> But I just have a question with all this "titles don't matter" stuff. So what you're all saying is that if I work my dog, decide he's breed worthy, and can convince 10 potential puppy buyers that he's a great sire and will make great puppies, I should breed him? No matter what it does to the breed over all? Just a weird mindset to me since most of the ideas floating around this forum have been about the betterment of the whole breed and not letting one person decide whether their dog is breedworthy. Again, correct me if I'm wrong in my understanding.


 just wanted to add, and I'm not attacking you personally but since we disagree we have something to talk about 

You said that if I work my dog, decide he's breed worthy, and .... I should breed him?
NO! You (and I) are not breeders. Our decision means nothing since we know little about lineage, health, testing, etc etc - all the things that a responsible breeder should know about and plan for. Our opinion is just that, while a knowledgeable breeder's opinion carries more weight.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

ayoitzrimz said:


> With all that said, my point above is that just because there are a few people who manipulate the system, doesn't mean the system is broken.


Although I agree with everything you said, this part has been greatly debated on this forum many a time. It is the reason why people come on this forum and just bad mouth certain lines without doing any research at all. It's the reason why many people don't give respect to probably the most prominent line of GSD in the United States, and why the American GSD is thought of so poorly by people around the world.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

ayoitzrimz said:


> just wanted to add, and I'm not attacking you personally but since we disagree we have something to talk about
> 
> You said that if I work my dog, decide he's breed worthy, and .... I should breed him?
> NO! You (and I) are not breeders. Our decision means nothing since we know little about lineage, health, testing, etc etc - all the things that a responsible breeder should know about and plan for. Our opinion is just that, while a knowledgeable breeder's opinion carries more weight.


I was using I as hypothetical, it could've been anyone. But there you go, to someone off the street, I am way more knowledgeable than they are. I think too much is expected out of a buyer to do the research to get a great dog, there is no protection for the buyer in most cases, and many won't do the leg work we'd like to see done.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

JakodaCD OA said:


> Sue, I agree about alot of obed people being snobs,,yeppie, the "my dog is better than your dog" thing..


I've taken classes in Competition Obedience-Open/Utility for both dogs. The other people in the class were nice, the instructor made the whole thing seem like it was a life or death situation. 
There was a Freestyle class going on at the same time as our class. Those people would leave the class smiling and laughing...we'd leave with lowered heads saying things like "I need a drink...I have a headache...do you think if we killed her anyone would miss her?"


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Whiteshepherds said:


> I've taken classes in Competition Obedience-Open/Utility for both dogs. The other people in the class were nice, the instructor made the whole thing seem like it was a life or death situation.
> There was a Freestyle class going on at the same time as our class. Those people would leave the class smiling and laughing...we'd leave with lowered heads saying things like "I need a drink...I have a headache...do you think if we killed her anyone would miss her?"


I've been doing private lessons with a trainer like you describe(life or death serious trainer). She was known as no-nonsense and compulsion based. 
In the past year she has turned to motivational methods~ drive/capping drive, and had to go back and fix one of her dogs(she'd shut down often).
She loves to train, but took it so seriously before. Now it is fun, the dogs are having fun and it is showing in the other areas she trains(field/hunt) Her dog is happy, happy, joy joy now! 
I went to a seminar all day yesterday and I've always thought obedience is a bit boring for the handler and the dog, but now am more motivated because of the methods used by my instructor and who she's been training with for the past few months. 

I was a bit leary of trying it, but now am sold. Here is a link to the instructor, and after a month of training this way the results seen are really amazing! 
Bridget Carlsen - Competition Obedience Training


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

martemchik said:


> I was using I as hypothetical, it could've been anyone. But there you go, to someone off the street, I am way more knowledgeable than they are. I think too much is expected out of a buyer to do the research to get a great dog, there is no protection for the buyer in most cases, and many won't do the leg work we'd like to see done.


Its very true, and it comes down to you can't fix stupid.

Good quality breeders can do their best to make sure their dogs go to good homes. They screen potential buyers, don't sell pups around christmas, and screen potential buyers again 

The problem is really with people, greed, and the fact that there is money to be made (although I read sometime somewhere that the better breeders actually LOSE money)... anyway, whenever money is involved, unfortunately, people will go out to make a quick buck.

It's just like buying a car, it is up to the buyer to make sure he's not being scammed. Nobody will protect them in case someone sold them a lemon. Obviously, buying a dog is much different than buying a car and buying a puppy is much different than buying a dog, but the point remains - we can't fix stupid. All we can do is try to educate others and hope they listen. At the end of the day though, it is a free country. 

I think I could come to some agreement with you though in that in general the AKC *could* mandate a health screening / basic temperament test before allowing a pair of AKC registered dogs to produce AKC registered offspring. But, here's where you open up a can of worms. 

What's basic temperament? Approachable? Can be handled by strangers? what about the more protective breeds? What about dogs that are perfectly fine otherwise but refuse to have their, i don't know, ears checked? And dogs that are known to be aggressive towards smaller animals (hunting dogs, etc) - do you place them in a room with a cat and make sure the owner can control the dog? probably not.

What's health screening? Do we need a basic, cover all breeds health test? Or do we (by we I actually mean the AKC) require different tests for different breeds - for example, a GSD would require hips/elbows - do we require the same from welsh corgi breeders? Or spaniel breeders? Dobermans need to be tested for von Willebrand's disease, does the AKC require the same screening from GSD breeders? Probably not...

Anyway, this is all very theoretical though, and that's why I'm a software developer where everything is either true or false, not a breeder  

Oh ****, I'm rambling again... sorry!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

You're making great points...there is a lot more to think about. But that's why I'm suggesting just a small requirement, not a large one. I get it, the Schutzhund thing is just a question that people in the "know" ask of a reputable breeder because they want to see a dog that is properly tested. But I'm wondering more for the average joe, the one that doesn't know about Schutzhund and could care less about all that. The one that cares about an AKC registration paper because that will tell him that the dog is purebred. Will there always be bybs that are breeding and not registering? Absolutely, but there are plenty that do register. Lets face it, I have a registered dog, it wouldn't be hard for me to buy a registered bitch and start making registered puppies. To average joe, I'm way more knowledgeable than anyone he's ever met and I'll sound like I know exactly what I'm doing, plus its AKC registered, which means I've been approved by the AKC (lol).

A basic AKC title has the stand for exam in there, so a judge would come up to the dog. The more advanced ones, the judge almost violates the dog, and any aggressive reaction would cause a NQ.

Sorry to break it to you folks, but I'm not worried about any of you (forum members) being able to pick out the correct dog, and support the right breeder. I know you have the tools and knowledge to make that decision and affect the breed in a positive way. Its the other people that go out and purchase a GSD that worry me, they're just too easy to take advantage of.

Maybe having to get a CDX would take some of those breeders out of breeding. Maybe the cost of it will make it not profitable to those people and they will just forget it and not breed. I feel like AKC registration does affect enough buyers out there so that they will go to the next one, but I know it doesn't affect all and some will just not care. I think the only breeders that make money are the ones that don't work their dogs. They don't spend any money on the dogs and then they have just the vet care for the puppies which is probably easily covered by selling 10 pups for 500 bucks.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If you make it a requirement for breeding AKC dogs that all the dogs must have a CDX, then a lot of working line people will be peeved. Not because their dogs cannot get a CDX, but rather because the AKC will NEVER recognize a Schutzhund title in lieu of a CDX even if it is clearly a more advanced title. There is no point whatsover for a person with a schutzhund title on a dog to get a CDX too, and that does not mean they could just walk in the ring and do it. They would have to train themselves and the dog for it, but it would tell them nothing about the dog.


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## gsdheeler (Apr 12, 2010)

Onyx'Girl
Bridget Carlsen is doing a Seminar this July in Pa. I was debating going to the seminar or going to an Agility trial, I guess you liked the training methods that much that I should do the seminar? 
I'm training at the Novice level, working on open and starting a bit of Utl. too. No CD yet, so if I'd change training methods it wouldn't be the end of the world.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

onyx'girl said:


> I was a bit leary of trying it, but now am sold. Here is a link to the instructor, and after a month of training this way the results seen are really amazing!
> Bridget Carlsen - Competition Obedience Training


Bridget is an *awesome* trainer! Is this who you train with? Lucky dog!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I would go to any seminar she and/or Greg may be hosting. 
The techniques she uses are new to the AKC crowd but not so much the SchH people. Yet she still has amazing tricks in her toolbox and energy to spare. Yesterday the seminar started at 10 am and ended at 8 pm (driving 2.5 hours to it and then 1.5 hours to her hotel for the seminar in Lansing today and tomorrow) I wish I had that energy....

Regina, no I don't weekly train with her, she comes once a month to our area for working seminars. Pricey but worth it.
My trainer does go to her place often though to work with her(she wants more personal training w/ her so she can teach others) It is really amazing to see the difference in her dog since January.
Judy, if you have bowwowflix, 3 of her DVD's are on there, you can familiarize yourself with her program before going to the seminar, it does help to have some of her techniques down before going.


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