# Timid, shy 16 week old NEED HELP



## michgill751 (Aug 21, 2013)

Background provided in order to get better more accurate advice. Thanks in advance.
Puppy was in transport from 11/8-11/11. Puppy was supposed to arrive on 11/9. Transport said puppy was shy when picked up? When puppy arrived at 1am on 11/11 puppy was extremely timid and scared. Tail tucked, shaking and did not want to leave transport at that time. Had major diarrhea which I took care of holistically. Cleared up in 4 days. [Stools have remained normal since treatment. Currently on ZiwiPeak Lamb dehydrated and 1 can of ZiwiPeak canned daily.] Puppy was afraid of everything then and is still afraid. Seems to be getting worse. Mind you, he's been here 3 weeks 3 days TODAY. His DOB is 8/15/2013 which makes him 16 weeks TODAY. He began loosing his baby teeth almost 2 1/2 weeks ago? At 16 weeks he weighs 48 pounds. He has NO drive. He is still very much fearful of us. Cowered when I put a leash on him and I just put a leash on him just 2 days ago for the first time since he's been here. He's super quiet in the house and literally stays in one spot which is the dog bed I bought him. If anyone walks in his direction and he's not on the bed he trots to the bed and gets on it quickly like it's base. He will not eat/drink when anyone is around him? He has plenty of toys but only carries a few favs around. He has no desire to come when called while in the home. If he's eating/drinking in the kitchen and the dishwasher kicks on then he hightails it to his bed. He's scared to death of the vacuum and not very fond of the television. He has bonded to NO ONE! The breeder told us it would take a month to acclimate now I could see if he were a rescue however this is suppose to be a well bred puppy. NOT! It's as though he's having a nervous break down. To be quite honest, this breeder has had a lot of stories. It took us 3 weeks to get his AKC limited registration. And I won't dare call her as she has been nothing but rude since this puppy arrived and has had nothing but excuses. In fact, she has 3 different names? IMHO, a puppy at 16 weeks should be well adjusted and fearless not shy, timid and fearful. We've had rescues in the past that were better adjusted than this puppy. Any suggestions? Please do NOT suggest sending him back as she's not going to give us our money so that's not an option. Plus side is he is completely housebroken and has not had one accident. He sleeps on his bed from 11pm until 7am.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

He's adorible. But he sounds like he has a crippling problem. You have some choices to make. I think that there are some links on here for help with shy dogs. You will need to build your puppy's confidence and possibley manage his environment carefully. A puppy that is this fearful is a candidate for being very reactive down the line, so you will want to get him out and about, around other people and dogs. At the same time, you want him to trust you completely, so you do not want to overwhelm him.

He seems to like his toys. Maybe he has some play drive you can build on.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Paging Mericel.


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## michgill751 (Aug 21, 2013)

What do you mean by "crippling disease?" The last dog that I came across like this puppy later was dx with HD :-(


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I've raised a rescue with this issue before. I basically put her in a room with me and then I ignored her. I would have little slices of hotdog or something near me to encourage her to approach but if she did I wouldn't even glance her way. I would move slow, never square up to her, and usually I kept my back to her. She would do a lot of approach sniff retreat at first but then gradually got up the nerve to take a piece and then retreat to eat it. After a day or two she actually fell asleep on my legs while I was on my laptop on the floor and then took food outta my hands and we had enough trust at that point to condition against sounds and take the show out on the road. It was always a slow process and she was never 100% comfortable with strangers out in the world, but she was functional.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

She said "crippling problem", not disease.

An extremely timid puppy like this is alot of work and all baby steps. I too would use the toys he likes to try and play with him to start the bonding process. I wouldn't introduce any big stresses until I had a bond and felt puppy trusts you.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

You pretty much have two things working in your favor in a situation like this. The fact the puppy needs food and water and that it instinctively desires interaction with a "packmate" for survival sake. Just don't force things take it slow and let the pup warm up to you on its own. Keep any attempt the puppy makes to get near you positive.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

michgill751 said:


> What do you mean by "crippling disease?" The last dog that I came across like this puppy later was dx with HD :-(


Temperament issues are every bit as crippling as structural abnormalities. A dog that is very fearful can become a liability if he becomes fear-reactive. And you may always have to manage his environment carefully. 

They can be great pets though. 

On the other hand, you have had him for three weeks, and he is not repsonding and bonding with anyone, it is not a good sign. He is a little older, but it should take days to adjust not weeks. Not for a four month old puppy. 

I don't mean he will have trouble getting around. But he very may well have trouble getting around anything he thinks is scary, and anything new. 

He's young. I don't like that he will not eat or take treats when anyone is around. I think you should read up on how to manage a shy dog. there's a book, Help for the Shy Dog, I think by Deborah Wood which is pretty good. 

Then again, maybe your best bet is to invest in a good behaviorist/trainer.

With a pup this fearful, you will have to do all the socialization and you are already beyond the socialization period. This does not mean that he can't be socialized, it just means it will be a bit more difficult and take longer. With this pup who is afriad of typical and repeated household noises, it's going to be a challenge. 

He is crippled in this sense. The question is, can you help him to find his legs.


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## michgill751 (Aug 21, 2013)

This is my dilemma, I have 9 year old twin boys with autism. The breeder assured me that this puppy was well bred and would be absolutely fine with them. I told her that they were very LOUD and stim (wave hands, flap dolls, etc.) When I first saw the puppy on the pedigree database, all I did was call and talk to the woman. The next thing you know she had the puppy at the vet faxing me a health certificate. My husband and I were a little taken back by this. We told her that there was no way the money would arrive by the time transport got there. She sent the puppy anyway. My husband, being a police officer, and I thought it to be very odd shipping a puppy w/o money. Puppy arrived on Monday early a.m. she had her money that Wednesday via FedEx only because we are honest. I can't throw my kids out because a so called "breeder" lied about a puppy's breeding/background. Any suggestions? He seems okay with our boys. Our one boy has sat next to him on his dog bed and he's mouthed him but no growling. He seems to tolerate our son but I certainly don't want a reactive dog biting my son either. The puppy has a tattoo in his ear, can I find out about his genetics through his tattoo and how? She never mentioned a tattoo? This is the third time in the last year we've been taken by a breeder. I don't think we'll be looking at GSD's from here on out as they seem far too overbred and the breeders we've dealt with have been off the wall crazy.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

A dog that fearful won't necessarily become a fear biter. They have to be cornered usually as the super scared ones almost always choose flight over fight. The socialization window has not closed. It never fully closes. The prime portion of socialization doesn't close for most pups till 5 months. There is still time it will just have to be extensive. Almost all your training energy must center around it.

It sounds like you bought from a breeder that doesn't socialize his pups at all.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

i'm sorry that you got a pup with a crappy temperment. hes very handsome though! my friend had a golden retriever like this. it takes A LOT of patience and the dog has to always be managed. its never going to be the normal confident dog.

with that said, the fact that you received this pup is completely on you. the fact that you got screwed over by 3 different breeders is on you. i mean you gave your address to this lady. when the pup arrived you didnt have to sign for it. there were a bunch of red flags and you ignored them all. if i bought a car i'd check it out and do a carfax and let a mechanic look at it before i bought it. you basically called to ask if the car was available and then immediately bought it. you dont buy something without checking it out. there are a bunch of shady breeders out there. it is your responsibilty to do the research. its not the dogs or the breeds fault.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

It's not even necessarily core temp that causes this kinda crap. You take a good line of pups and you keep em in people sterile condition till week 10-16 this is what you get. I'd take an ok Line of pups with a breeder that socializes and works like crazy with them over an excellent line raised in a pen any day of the week.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It is a good sign that the puppy is good around your sons. 

There is hope. 

Maybe you didn't get the puppy you wanted, but the puppy you need. 

No way to tell that now of course. 

You do not want to send the puppy back. I don't have much advice exept to check out how to build confidence. 

Your dog does not have to become fear-reactive. If he has been around your sons for 3.5 weeks and is ok with them, then that is a good. 

I think I would start the puppy in some puppy classes. Lots of treats. Lots of praise. The first day he might not take the treat. Bring a squeek toy as well and see if he will respond to that. Up the treat value -- hotdogs and cheese. Keep expectations low for the first week or so. 

Good luck.


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## michgill751 (Aug 21, 2013)

*response to boomer11*

with that said, the fact that you received this pup is completely on you. the fact that you got screwed over by 3 different breeders is on you. i mean you gave your address to this lady. when the pup arrived you didnt have to sign for it. there were a bunch of red flags and you ignored them all. if i bought a car i'd check it out and do a carfax and let a mechanic look at it before i bought it. you basically called to ask if the car was available and then immediately bought it. you dont buy something without checking it out. there are a bunch of shady breeders out there. it is your responsibilty to do the research. its not the dogs or the breeds fault.[/QUOTE]


Look I am here to learn not to be criticized on what you seem to think you know. People lie every day and to be quite honest it's very difficult to know who's lying and who isn't. Anyone can get references. They can have friends and family lie for them. It's the world we live in and it's a pretty fallen world. We had no choice but to pay as we are honest people. What you do is your business but how we handle things is ours. The first breeder that we purchased a puppy from had loads of references and even has a FB group full of followers however in this last year, she's had many puppies and dogs returned only to re-sell them. She kicked out 30+ litters because she gives her so called pick females away under a breeding contract that once the bitch turns 2 she gets 2 litters out of the bitch regardless of training/genetic testing. The second breeder we purchased an older puppy from had the same issues as this one. She was returned only for another breeder to purchase her and the dog has HD. The breeder that had her hips surveyed however knew we had issues as I told her about the entire mess that breeder in turn got pissed at me for telling her the truth. The GSD breeders on a whole are very competitive and backstabbing and it's truly sad because people like us get taken advantage of and the puppies and dogs pay the ultimate price because of poor breeding. Don't judge what you do not know. As for cars, it's only because of car fax that you can now see if the car has been in an accident. People sell cars all of the time and don't disclose things. Same things with homes. We purchased our home 6 years ago only to find out there was significant mold damage and we paid for it. It was NOT disclosed. Again, people lie all of the time and get away with it. The only way to stop it is to expose it. We don't live our life on lies.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Were they all older pups? I like getting em at 7-8 weeks because they're way more pliable. I wouldn't get one at 10-15 weeks unless I had first person experience with the pup. In any case regardless of that I would take the pups food bowl away and use all food as "socialization currency" leave a bowl of water out though.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

How is the puppy outside of the home? How is he in walks? 

My suggestion is to bond with puppy outside, take hikes, walks, classes. I have find hiking to be a great binding experience. 

I am sorry you are dealing with this. There are lots if unscrupulous breeders out there. Sometimes people stink. But you have decided to accept And keep this puppy. So it's time to socialize, desensitize and turn this pup into a values family member. 

Good luck. 


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## michgill751 (Aug 21, 2013)

How do I reply to each person? Is there a way? Again, I am not trying to make anyone here angry. I just want to learn. To be quite honest, years ago nearly 2 decades, we did GSD rescue and those dogs didn't seem to have half as many issues as puppies purchased from breeders? These were adult dogs from shelters to owner surrenders, some with no backgrounds and they were much easier to deal with. Could teething have anything to do with it? Just asking. Has anyone ever seen a puppy become sensitive while teething? I am sure cutting teeth can be painful. His appetite is normal, stools are normal. However, he sleeps A LOT!


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## michgill751 (Aug 21, 2013)

gsdsar
Funny you mention outside. Our backyard is fenced so I let him out periodically to use the bathroom. However, at night, I take him out front and here and there during the day and he stays right in the yard. If he starts to wonder, I just call his name and he comes back. Leash wise, he piddled when I first put a leash on him 2 days ago. I used a pinch collar and at first he wasn't quite sure but after about 10 mins he quickly got the hang of it however if he sees the leash he goes the opposite direction. Any suggestions to make that fun?


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## michgill751 (Aug 21, 2013)

Bailif
There were 4 older pups, I only saw photos of 3. The breeder claimed to keep them that long because she housebreaks them? No leash training or socializing though? Quite honestly, I told my husband that we should not have paid but being a cop that was not an option for us. Oddly enough, I have tried to lure him into the kitchen where his bowls are when I feed him but he won't come near me. I have been putting his food in the bowl and leaving the kitchen and that's when he eats. His behaviors are a bit odd.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

michgill751 said:


> How do I reply to each person? !


Hit the quote button in the lower right corner of this frame. 

There is a really great yahoo group called shydogs. Join that group and you will get a lot of useful advice. You will get a much mixed bag on here (in terms of advice) and plenty of people who have no experience telling you what you should and shouldn't do. 

What were the parents like? How was this pup raised (kenneled? early socialization, etc.?) 

Not all shy dogs become fear aggressive but they do take more management. I have rehabbed two shy dogs and it required learning a completely different way of training. Neither was shy or fearful with me or people that they knew well. I also fostered a dog that was fearful in his prior home (because of abuse) but turned into a really well-balanced dog once he was out of that situation for a while.


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

16 weeks is way to young for a pinch collar. Why do you say this is the 3rd time youve been taken by a breeder? What happened to the other dogs from the other breeders? Why couldnt u send the dog back? How did this breeder get your address? Something just doesnt add up.


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

michgill751 said:


> Bailif
> There were 4 older pups, I only saw photos of 3. The breeder claimed to keep them that long because she housebreaks them? No leash training or socializing though? Quite honestly, I told my husband that we should not have paid but being a cop that was not an option for us. Oddly enough, I have tried to lure him into the kitchen where his bowls are when I feed him but he won't come near me. I have been putting his food in the bowl and leaving the kitchen and that's when he eats. His behaviors are a bit odd.


Im not a cop, but I would never think about not paying what I owe if I kept the dog.


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## michgill751 (Aug 21, 2013)

*BowWowMeow*

There is a really great yahoo group called shydogs. Join that group and you will get a lot of useful advice. You will get a much mixed bag on here (in terms of advice) and plenty of people who have no experience telling you what you should and shouldn't do. 

Thank you, I will check them out 

What were the parents like? How was this pup raised (kenneled? early socialization, etc.?) 

Quite honestly, we had no intentions of purchasing the puppy. She hadn't received any money from us until 3 days after he's was delivered. I can tell you that neither of them are on the pedigree database 

Not all shy dogs become fear aggressive but they do take more management. I have rehabbed two shy dogs and it required learning a completely different way of training. Neither was shy or fearful with me or people that they knew well. I also fostered a dog that was fearful in his prior home (because of abuse) but turned into a really well-balanced dog once he was out of that situation for a while.[/QUOTE]

We've had 2 recent experiences with shy puppies. The first went back to the breeder (which later turned out to have HD) He then sent a second puppy in lieu of the first. The second however, once done teething was extremely high drive and crazy. We re-homed her to a woman that is going to train her in IPO. That's how crazy her drives were. She was mouthing ALL of us ALL the time. She went from fearful to fearless. Mind you, for about 4 weeks prior she was pathetically afraid of outside, her shadow, etc. I am hoping and praying that this is some kinda weird phase. Maybe Cyrus will snap out of it once he teethes like she did. He's very mature for a puppy if that makes sense. Very reserved. Very skittish.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

First- get rid of the pinch collar. Your pup is too young for it. You may need it later, but now, everything should be positive. 

Second- get a long line. When you take the puppy out, let him explore, if he looks at you, Mark with a very upbeat happy "yes" then ignore. Until he looks at you again. If he comes into you. Mark with "yes" and have the bestest treat ever(filet mignon) and Give it to him. Don't overwhelm with physicality. A good treat and a happy voice!! All most dogs need. 

Third- do the same thing in the house. If he looks at you, Mark with a " yes" if he come towards you, Mark with a " yes" and have an amazing treat ready. 

At this age, and with his shyness, you need to be very clear what you like from him. He wants to please you, a let him Know when he does. I would completely ignore bad behavior right now. No corrections at all. Teach him to want to please you. Teach him to offer behaviors do he can get a reward. 


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## michgill751 (Aug 21, 2013)

*Msmaria*



Msmaria said:


> Im not a cop, but I would never think about not paying what I owe if I kept the dog.


I meant not pay and for her to have to pay to have him transported back. I have never heard of any breeder shipping any dog without payment quite honestly. Oddly enough she told me that if we had not paid it would not have mattered because we would have not gotten papers. Considering we only purchased limited anyway, I didn't understand her rationalism on that.


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## michgill751 (Aug 21, 2013)

*gsdsar*



gsdsar said:


> First- get rid of the pinch collar. Your pup is too young for it. You may need it later, but now, everything should be positive.
> 
> Second- get a long line. When you take the puppy out, let him explore, if he looks at you, Mark with a very upbeat happy "yes" then ignore. Until he looks at you again. If he comes into you. Mark with "yes" and have the bestest treat ever(filet mignon) and Give it to him. Don't overwhelm with physicality. A good treat and a happy voice!! All most dogs need.
> 
> ...


When you say "mark" what exactly does that mean? I have a clicker should I use it? The long line I have  Should I keep the long line on him in the house? He literally lays on his bed much of the day except to use the bathroom. And I am not exaggerating.


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## michgill751 (Aug 21, 2013)

*Msmaria*



Msmaria said:


> 16 weeks is way to young for a pinch collar. Why do you say this is the 3rd time youve been taken by a breeder? What happened to the other dogs from the other breeders? Why couldnt u send the dog back? How did this breeder get your address? Something just doesnt add up.


Further down this thread, I explained regarding the 3 breeders including this one. This was the third. I went into detail if that helps and quite honestly I am not sure how far down as I was replying to someone else. This breeder had my address as she map quested it to tell me how far the drive would have been but considering she was 20 hours away that didn't work for me to drive there given our family circumstances. Hope this helps.


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

michgill751 said:


> I meant not pay and for her to have to pay to have him transported back. I have never heard of any breeder shipping any dog without payment quite honestly. Oddly enough she told me that if we had not paid it would not have mattered because we would have not gotten papers. Considering we only purchased limited anyway, I didn't understand her rationalism on that.



Me either. I agree with what others have said regarding bonding. Even though I got my puppy at 6 weeks, I still didnt feel bonded until a few months later. You will know because they will start following u everywhere. Training really helped us to bond. Especially because we used positive enforcement with clicker and yummy treats. Try using the clicker and everytime he responds to u, click and treat. Lots of petting and praise with treat. Try to make it really fun, they can get so distracted at this age.my trainer said not to use pinch collars on a shy or timid dog. Instead play tug and let them win. It helps them to gain confidence.
P.S. clicker training is like marking . But I noticed the dogs pick up on the clicker faster than marking with yes.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Pups that age do a lot of sleeping and being lazy that's normal. When they say mark we basically mean using a word that serves as a predictor a reward is coming. It is like pavlovs dog. If you say yes then give a treat yes then give a treat over and over the pup learns that the word precedes a food event and learns to expect it. You can then use that marker to take a "snapshot" of a behavior you like in the pup and would like the pup to repeat and then you feed to reinforce. The clicker is unnecessary even the word yes is unnecessary. Any noise as long as it was consistent would work.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

how can the fact that someone sent you a dog without payment not raise an incredibly huge red flag???? that is really mind boggling. the fact that you gave your address to someone after just seeing pictures of the pup is also quiet confusing. paying a shady crooked breeder doesnt really make you honest, it makes you other things. ok i'm done with this thread before i offend too much =)

fyi a NORMAL german shepherd pup will mouth the heck out of you.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

****, for all you know she wants you sending the pup back refund free so she can shaft it off on the next person that orders from her.


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## michgill751 (Aug 21, 2013)

*Msmaria*



Msmaria said:


> Me either. I agree with what others have said regarding bonding. Even though I got my puppy at 6 weeks, I still didnt feel bonded until a few months later. You will know because they will start following u everywhere. Training really helped us to bond. Especially because we used positive enforcement with clicker and yummy treats. Try using the clicker and everytime he responds to u, click and treat. Lots of petting and praise with treat.


Are there any good dvd's on clicker training or possibly youtube channels? Is it usual for a puppy at 16 weeks to sleep so much? I could see a mastiff puppy sleeping this much because of the breed but not a GSD puppy. He's grown quite a bit since being here.


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## michgill751 (Aug 21, 2013)

*Baillif*



Baillif said:


> ****, for all you know she wants you sending the pup back refund free so she can shaft it off on the next person that orders from her.


That recently happen to us. The last puppy (8 months) was returned to the FL kennel only for him to resell her to another breeder/kennel. That puppy has HD and there is an ongoing dispute


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Leerburg Dog Training | The Power of Training Dogs with Markers

Intro to markers there. Basically dogs learn through classical or operant conditioning only. You can pretty much view them as input output machines.


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## michgill751 (Aug 21, 2013)

*Baillif*



Baillif said:


> Pups that age do a lot of sleeping and being lazy that's normal. When they say mark we basically mean using a word that serves as a predictor a reward is coming. It is like pavlovs dog. If you say yes then give a treat yes then give a treat over and over the pup learns that the word precedes a food event and learns to expect it. You can then use that marker to take a "snapshot" of a behavior you like in the pup and would like the pup to repeat and then you feed to reinforce. The clicker is unnecessary even the word yes is unnecessary. Any noise as long as it was consistent would work.


Some may or may not understand this but I am a very visual learner. Are there any dvd's or youtube channels that I can watch on all of this? And thank you for the detailed explanation. I sincerely appreciate it.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

michgill751 said:


> When you say "mark" what exactly does that mean? I have a clicker should I use it? The long line I have  Should I keep the long line on him in the house? He literally lays on his bed much of the day except to use the bathroom. And I am not exaggerating.


Mark means saying the word at the precise moment the behavior you want is offered. Yes a clicker is fine, I just have sucky timing with one, so instead if clicking I say "yes". Same thing. 

I don't know the long line is needed in the house right now. But outside it gives you a level of environmental control. 


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Forget the clicker right now. For really shy dogs it is too much (as in scary). Just mark with your voice. I would just use an upbeat voice and mark with Good dog (or his name) and a delicious treat. 

Join that group though--you will get lots of support and very clear advice there. Also, they have good resources for books, videos, etc.

And I would tether him to you in the house. Don't make a big deal out of it but that will really help him bond to you.


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## michgill751 (Aug 21, 2013)

Baillif said:


> Leerburg Dog Training | The Power of Training Dogs with Markers
> 
> Intro to markers there. Basically dogs learn through classical or operant conditioning only. You can pretty much view them as input output machines.


Thanks, looks like I have got some new learning myself and A LOT of reading tomorrow. I've got to get to bed as my boys have school tomorrow. We aren't breeders just a family that loves the breed and wanted a family companion.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

michgill751 said:


> This is my dilemma, I have 9 year old twin boys with autism. The breeder assured me that this puppy was well bred and would be absolutely fine with them. I told her that they were very LOUD and stim (wave hands, flap dolls, etc.) When I first saw the puppy on the pedigree database, all I did was call and talk to the woman. The next thing you know she had the puppy at the vet faxing me a health certificate. My husband and I were a little taken back by this. We told her that there was no way the money would arrive by the time transport got there. She sent the puppy anyway. My husband, being a police officer, and I thought it to be very odd shipping a puppy w/o money. Puppy arrived on Monday early a.m. she had her money that Wednesday via FedEx only because we are honest. I can't throw my kids out because a so called "breeder" lied about a puppy's breeding/background. Any suggestions? He seems okay with our boys. *Our one boy has sat next to him on his dog bed and he's mouthed him but no growling. He seems to tolerate our son but I certainly don't want a reactive dog biting my son either. *The puppy has a tattoo in his ear, can I find out about his genetics through his tattoo and how? She never mentioned a tattoo? This is the third time in the last year we've been taken by a breeder. I don't think we'll be looking at GSD's from here on out as they seem far too overbred and the breeders we've dealt with have been off the wall crazy.


Your pup could be trying to engage your son in play, most pups like to play bite. What does he do if you try to engage him in play? Have you tried playing tug or any other games that might bring him out of his shell? Sometimes you need to get animated to wind him a bit.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

On that leerburg website there are DVDs for marker systems some of them are free some cost money. If you you tubed marker training for dogs you'd probably see a ton of stuff. There is a YouTube channel called training positive. He has a lot of instructional stuff on there.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

You know what would be ironic? The autism might cause enough aloofness with your kids to draw the super sensitive pup in. They might not focus in on him like others would and trigger his anxiety. If you put food around them provided they were calm the pup would maybe bond to them before you.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

michgill751 said:


> That recently happen to us. The last puppy (8 months) was returned to the FL kennel only for him to resell her to another breeder/kennel. That puppy has HD and there is an ongoing dispute


If this was the case there's a possibility that pup has already been bounced a round to different places In a shipping crate. Would be pretty traumatic.


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

BowWowMeow said:


> Forget the clicker right now. For really shy dogs it is too much (as in scary). Just mark with your voice. I would just use an upbeat voice and mark with Good dog (or his name) and a delicious treat.
> 
> u.


Not necessarily true. My pup was the shy one of the puppies. Using the clicker with 2 fingers worked wonders for him. As soon as he saw the clicker hed get animated. Then I used just the one finger. He really adjusted to noise im sure because of the clicker. No noise phases him now.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I'd be more focused on getting the pup to associate family members with positive events than trying to marker train though.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Every puppy is different. They aren't whelped with instructions. Figuring out what will work with them is a huge part of it. When a puppy won't eat even treats, it makes the clicker thing difficult because the first step with a clicker is to load it, click treat, click treat. I think Ruth's advice is good to go to that other forum for people with shy dogs. I think it is possible that you will get the best advice there about that issue. 

I wouldn't use a prong on a puppy or a shy dog, not until I have gained their confidence anyway. I don't use prongs, but with a dog with a soft temperament, you really need to avoid the negative markers and to build confidence.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Yeah I wouldn't prong a puppy period. 5-6 month minimum.


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

Baillif said:


> I'd be more focused on getting the pup to associate family members with positive events than trying to marker train though.



Theres no reason why the OP cant do both. Training is very important for a shy dog. It gives them confidence as long as its done the right way. It also encorages bonding. And helps relieve anxiety by allowing the dog to look to its trainer for guidiance. Yes the OP does need to visit the shy dog site. I joined awhile ago. There the op will learn what to do not to do without people going back and forth on advice.
With a shy timid or soft dog even 6 or 7 months is too young fkr a prong. It can encourage reactive behavior.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

With a soft dog I probably wouldn't use a prong at all. You could correct it plenty just raising your voice or looking at it funny.


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## michgill751 (Aug 21, 2013)

*Msmaria*



Msmaria said:


> Theres no reason why the OP cant do both. Training is very important for a shy dog. It gives them confidence as long as its done the right way. It also encorages bonding. And helps relieve anxiety by allowing the dog to look to its trainer for guidiance. Yes the OP does need to visit the shy dog site. I joined awhile ago. There the op will learn what to do not to do without people going back and forth on advice.
> With a shy timid or soft dog even 6 or 7 months is too young fkr a prong. It can encourage reactive behavior.


What is an "OP?" Last night, I did the "YES" verbal command and it did work  Cyrus continued to come up to me and I consistently said "YES" while we were outside. He was almost "giddy." I think that there's much promise in him and will continue to work with him. It's certainly not what I bargained for but I think in the end it will be worth it. He's good in many ways. I joined the yahoo group and will ask questions later today once I have had time to read through others' challenging questions and see the answers and the outcome. Thanks so much for being open enough to help us. I just want a happy, confident puppy that does not fear any of us.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

OP= Original Poster (the person that started the thread) who is in this case you.

Yes is not a verbal command. It is a conditioned stimulus. While you are building it up or "charging the mark." Everytime you say yes right after (ideally under 1.5 seconds but no more than 5 seconds) you would make a treat or toy the dog loves appear. The dog learns that the word means something great is coming and turns his attention to you and expects the toy or treat (this is called a conditioned response.) In order for the "Yes" to maintain its power you must continue to produce the food or toy after you say it. Everytime. If you were saying yes without building it up and the puppy was responding it was responding to your excited tone of voice...which is still good news.

It all goes back to the Pavlov's dog experiments you read about in psychology classes. They ring a bell right before feeding dog learns to associate the bell with mealtime and begins to do things like salivate at the sound of the bell even though the food has not yet appeared.


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## michgill751 (Aug 21, 2013)

*Bailif*



Baillif said:


> OP= Original Poster (the person that started the thread) who is in this case you.
> 
> Yes is not a verbal command. It is a conditioned stimulus. While you are building it up or "charging the mark." Everytime you say yes right after (ideally under 1.5 seconds but no more than 5 seconds) you would make a treat or toy the dog loves appear. The dog learns that the word means something great is coming and turns his attention to you and expects the toy or treat (this is called a conditioned response.) In order for the "Yes" to maintain its power you must continue to produce the food or toy after you say it. Everytime.
> 
> It all goes back to the Pavlov's dog experiments you read about in psychology classes. They ring a bell right before feeding dog learns to associate the bell with mealtime and begins to do things like salivate at the sound of the bell even though the food has not yet appeared.


I know this will sound quite dumb to the person inexperienced with autism but I believe that they use Pavlov's techniques in training/teaching children with autism as that name sounds very familiar. Will look him/her up later. To be quite honest, when I said "YES" he actually wanted pets  Should I do food or pets as a reward? And thank you for explaining so much as you can see, I am no trainer. I have quite a bit to learn so please be patient with me and thank you again  A little kindness goes a long way. He does much better outside than in... Quite honestly, I agree with you in an older response in that he lack human socialization and puppies that are 8 weeks seems to bond better, not in all cases but certainly most especially when they come to depend on their human for their basic needs.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

It's no problem it is what we are here for. 

Go with food. Petting and affection are great but they don't have the power something like food does. There is no reason that you can't give both at the same time and throw a little puppy party for him when he takes big leaps forward in bravery. Just step it back a little bit on the energy level if he shows any anxiety.

If I were you I would stop bowl feeding completely. Hand feed him only to help build his trust with you and his surroundings. After that you gotta start taking the show on the road. Get him hungry and start getting him out of his "safety zone" slowly and use the food to help socialize him to the outside world too.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> After that you gotta start taking the show on the road. Get him hungry and start getting him out of his "safety zone" slowly and use the food to help socialize him to the outside world too.


I would take my time with this. There is no need to expose the pup to daily walks until it is dealing better with weird noises around the house. It is good to bring the pup to the countryside, but suburban areas can have too much distractions. You can end up teaching a pup to be fearful on the leash and run into dogs, buses other people and loud noises when it is still having a hard time with the noises and people in his own house. 



> when I said "YES" he actually wanted pets


This is a very good sign. The pup wants affection and human contact. Use it to your advantage and when the pup is stressed you can massage it and pass you calming energy to it. I find a stressed dog is tense and you can actually feel it in it's body. You can then use pressure and relaxing massage to release the tension. Basically you aiming to convert the flight instinct into a calmness. Never feel sorry for a pup or coddle it, but do handle it to calm it and let it get over it's fear.

My bullmastiff X was on the other side of the spectrum and was fearful aggressive as a pup and up to 15 months. I found physically handling it helped a lot. A pup with no human socialization is not used to being rubbed on it's feet, ears belly etc. It is good to do this every day. Touch all parts and see where the pup is resisting. Go slowly. Stop. Calm the pup again. Let it know you aren't going to hurt it but you are going to continue and after some time it will start to accept much more contact. This will make the pup more aware of itself and more confident.



> Cowered when I put a leash on him


Start with a 1 or 2 foot lease on his collar and when he gets used to this put on a longer one.



> He's scared to death of the vacuum


He needs to be desensitized to this over time. Start to put the pup in another part of the house when you are hoovering. If someone else can use the vacuum then you can bring the pup somewhere else in the house and work on getting him calm. Then over time bring him closer to the noise. Also without the vacuum on you can desesitize the pup to being in the same room as the vacuum while remaining calm. As he calms down and settles more with you he will hopefully develop more of a food drive and then you can use that to redirect his energy when he is focused on something which is triggering his fear. The massage and contact work as well. The pup will begin to feel safe in your company.

Another method to let the pup get used to all the going on in the house is to put in a crate and put the crate somewhere central. Then the pup can absorb all the noise and commotion of the house hold. Before bringing for walks, leave the pup beside an open window facing the outside so he can get used to the sounds out there before actually going out there. You can use it's bed like a crate as that is his safe place already. But in a crate it means nobody can actually interact with him.



> He has NO drive.


I don't think this is true. Him carrying around his toys is a drive. Him playing with anything is a drive. If you throw his toy will he go and collect it? A flirt stick is a toy like he has joined onto a string attached to a stick. Basically spin this around the garden and it stimulates the dogs prey drive. 



> a puppy at 16 weeks should be well adjusted and fearless not shy, timid and fearful.


Sometimes a pup can have a certain temperament. It can be helped with early socializing or hindered like in your case. Still you have to accept the temperament as it is and work with it. It is not all due to it's past. It will change for the good in future depending on how you deal with the issues as they arise. You must encourage the pup to get over it's fears and be there to provide a stable structure for it to feel safe in.


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## michgill751 (Aug 21, 2013)

*Madlab*

I tried several times posting my reply and it wouldn't go through :-(

i am writing in caps so you can see my response 
we live in a relatively quiet area and during the day most people are working however until i get his confidence up some i will not be walking him just yet.

As for coddling, i agree. I do not reinforce negative behaviors and have learned this all too well with my twins as they have autism. We only reinforce positive behaviors.

I have a 1 ft traffic lead and will start doing this. I will get a 2 ft traffic lead 

crating is difficult as his "breeder" did not believe in the use of crates. She said that people over crate dogs and inhibit puppy growth? Not sure where she gets her information although i have seen this once many years ago when i did rescue. Right now, he sleeps in his bed on the first floor at night as he doesn't bother anything. Oddly enough he does not follow anyone around through the house. He mostly lays on his bed. He lays on the area rug in the family room to play with a toy here and there but it is not frequent.

I have a flirt pole and he's scared to death of it. As for toys, he plays with them independently almost like a child with autism. No he does not retrieve anything :-(


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## michgill751 (Aug 21, 2013)

Baillif said:


> It's no problem it is what we are here for.
> 
> Go with food. Petting and affection are great but they don't have the power something like food does. There is no reason that you can't give both at the same time and throw a little puppy party for him when he takes big leaps forward in bravery. Just step it back a little bit on the energy level if he shows any anxiety.
> 
> If I were you I would stop bowl feeding completely. Hand feed him only to help build his trust with you and his surroundings. After that you gotta start taking the show on the road. Get him hungry and start getting him out of his "safety zone" slowly and use the food to help socialize him to the outside world too.


Where do I hand feed him as he will not come into the kitchen if anyone is in there? Will this cause him to be picky in the future? Will this lead him to unwanted behaviors in the future? i.e.; feeding in places that are out of the norm? His bowls are currently in the kitchen I'd like to keep feeding in there in the future. I may not be wording this right. Sorry if I am confusing you by the questions.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Fear masks drive. Drive like prey drives are overridden by fear. The dog has drive but the fact its a puppy means its not yet developed, but the fear also hides it. Fix the fear and you'll see the drives.

Madlab is correct though this kind of process is not rushed it is gradual, and how gradual depends on the puppy. 

Fear is sort of a self reinforcing thing. How to explain this...

Lets say you have a really bad fear of heights. Like too afraid to get high up a ladder afraid. If I were to take you up into a hot air balloon and hang you over the side of it and yell SEE! TOLD YOU IT WAS NOTHING TO BE AFRAID OF YOU'RE FINE! That doesn't work, and you're a higher order being mentally that is capable of rationalization. Exposure to it like that doesn't help. That experience would be terrifying and reinforces your fear and magnifies it. 

Same thing with a dog. Exposing it to something it is super fearful of only serves to reinforce the fact it is scary. 

Now if I varied my approach and went for something gradual. Lets say I had a ladder and on progressively higher steps I placed progressively higher amounts of money and towards the top were several hundred dollar bills and said you can keep what you can get to. Now you have a motivation to get over it and instantaneous reward for achieving progressively higher steps. The positive feeling you get when you reach that money becomes associated with the activity of going progressively higher and you can become desensitized to that fear and maybe even learn to like going higher.

So your goal isn't necessarily feeding the little guy outta your hand right away. It is just getting him to take food around you. Let him collect those hundred dollar bills so to speak.

Don't believe anyone when they say the dog's socialization window is closed, he might be past his prime socialization time sure but any dog regardless of age can be socialized it just takes more effort. It's like fishing for squirrels. If you took enough time and effort with the same squirrel even if he was wild and an adult you can train him to take food out of your hands and that's not even a domesticated animal.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Another technique some people use is something called flooding. I would not recommend this but it basically is like this. If I were to take you up on that hot air balloon and hang you over the side you would be terrified, but since you have a finite supply of energy to hold that mental and physical state (terror, which is basically controlled by the sympathetic nervous system) at some point in order to maintain functions like digestion/immune system and that kind of thing you'd eventually see parasympathetic backlash. You'd have to calm down to stay alive or at least get calmer and from then maybe become accustomed to it in that situation and go back to normal. You might be cured at that point, you might only be cured in that specific circumstance, or you might end up suffering from PTSD. It's kind of like soldiers in combat. You reach a point of diminishing returns if you keep them on the front line too long where they break down and become zombie like. Not the safe way to go, but could potentially be effective.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

The other potential backlash is from a health perspective. Because of the highly stimulated sympathetic nervous system digestion, immune system function, and that kinda crap is all impaired and with a puppy that is potentially dangerous. You'd see things like diarrhea, food and water refusal, and increased chances of sickness.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I didn't exactly do a fantastic job explaining that. The sympathetic nervous system and Parasympathetic nervous system are sort of like an internal thermostat, or two sides of the same coin.

They work in opposition to each other to balance out the amount of energy the body expends on certain biological processes.

On the sympathetic nervous system you have things like fight/flight reflex, physical exercise, blood flow to muscles and that kinda thing. Basically if you are excited your sympathetic nervous system is more excited than your parasympathetic.

On the Parasympathetic side you have rest/digestion/muscle or cellular repair/sleep/Immune system functioning. If you just ate a big meal you get sleepy for a reason. The bodys parasympathetic nervous system shifts energy towards digestion. 

Anytime one is overstimulated you eventually have a backlash of the other one to bring you back into balance. So lets say I did something to threaten your life and you were freaking out. After you were out of danger you'd suddenly get very tired. That would be the parasympathetic nervous system swinging back into action. If you are super over stimulated and you get super tired afterwards we call that a parasympathetic back lash. It is the reason why battlefield commanders keep troops in reserve, for counter attacks. It is like a thermostat in this way. If you were to set the temp to 70 degrees and it was too hot in the room the AC clicks on to bring it back down. It will bring it down below 70 degrees and click off. If it got too far below 70 the heater clicks in and brings it back to 70. In the end it just wants to balance you out.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

Welcome to the board. Are you by any chance in michigan? Just want to say when I read that your puppy became "giddy" to your saying "yes", my eyes filled with tears. So glad you're gonna give him a chance. Sounds as tho he's been traumatized in some way, and it may take lots and lots of patience and love to gain his trust (and it might take a LONG time), but you might wind up with the best dog ever. Busy day for me today, but I'll be back to this thread. Please stick around and pass on over any less than kind posts, you'll get the drift pretty quickly about who genuinely wants to help and who's just here to hard time people.


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

michgill751 said:


> What is an "OP?" Last night, I did the "YES" verbal command and it did work  Cyrus continued to come up to me and I consistently said "YES" while we were outside. He was almost "giddy." I think that there's much promise in him and will continue to work with him. It's certainly not what I bargained for but I think in the end it will be worth it. He's good in many ways. I joined the yahoo group and will ask questions later today once I have had time to read through others' challenging questions and see the answers and the outcome. Thanks so much for being open enough to help us. I just want a happy, confident puppy that does not fear any of us.


You will! I truly believe in a few months you will be posting how well hes doing. It just takes some pointing in the right direction. The yahoo group is very good (I am also part of the yahoo ortho group, because my pup had HD and the germanshepherd dog yahoo group) My puppy was shy and slept alot. But with training (we started at 8 weeks with a class and were still in classes.) he has become very social and is not afraid of noises, other dogs or people. Hes very attached to me and my daughter now that we have bonded and is very trusting of people he knows. hes still quiet though and is a "soft" dog and will always be a "soft "dog. But that works for me.


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## michgill751 (Aug 21, 2013)

*katieliz*



katieliz said:


> Welcome to the board. Are you by any chance in michigan? Just want to say when I read that your puppy became "giddy" to your saying "yes", my eyes filled with tears. So glad you're gonna give him a chance. Sounds as tho he's been traumatized in some way, and it may take lots and lots of patience and love to gain his trust (and it might take a LONG time), but you might wind up with the best dog ever. Busy day for me today, but I'll be back to this thread. Please stick around and pass on over any less than kind posts, you'll get the drift pretty quickly about who genuinely wants to help and who's just here to hard time people.


Your kind words brought tears to my eyes. Maybe it's just at 45 I have become soft. We are keeping him and I truly think there's hope. My 19 year old son is going to help me when he's not working as well as my husband. Here's hoping that Cyrus bonds with all of us including our 9 year old twins with autism. Our one twin especially likes Cyrus though he doesn't quite know how to properly interact with him. Cyrus doesn't seem to mind Stevie's pats and sharing his dog bed with him  He's showing quite a bit of improvement with just the yes motivation. He may not have been exactly what I wanted as someone said in an earlier post but they were right, he may have been just what I needed. I think he will come around and I am really grateful to such a passionate group of experienced GSD people here. I will never truly know what his "breeder" did or did not do however I must move forward and help Cyrus to be the best family companion he can be.

We are in Pennsylvania and he came from Florida.


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

michgill751 said:


> Where do I hand feed him as he will not come into the kitchen if anyone is in there? Will this cause him to be picky in the future? Will this lead him to unwanted behaviors in the future? i.e.; feeding in places that are out of the norm? His bowls are currently in the kitchen I'd like to keep feeding in there in the future. I may not be wording this right. Sorry if I am confusing you by the questions.


Hand feeding is a great idea. I hand fed alot and have not had any problems with Dex eating his meals in any of the rooms I put his bowl in.


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## michgill751 (Aug 21, 2013)

Bailif
I think you had brought up "Pavlov's Dogs" and having children with autism I thought the name sounded familiar. Here is a short on why?

"How Applied Behavioral Analysis works.

Have you ever heard of Pavlov's dog? In a famous experiment, Dr. Pavlov fed his dog a treat every time he rang a bell. Eventually, the dog's mouth watered every time the doctor rang a bell, even after Dr. Pavlov stopped giving him a treat every time. Pavlov's dog had been conditioned to salivate at the sound of the bell.

ABA practitioners apply the same type of conditioning to children with autism spectrum disorder, using positive reinforcement to teach autistic children the social skills necessary to help those with autism spectrum disorder to become a functioning member of society."

The above is a snippet of how ABA began in working with children with autism though that methodology does not work for all and there are many methods just as you have been expelling regarding shy, timid and fearful puppies/dogs.


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## michgill751 (Aug 21, 2013)

*Handfeeding?*



Msmaria said:


> Hand feeding is a great idea. I hand fed alot and have not had any problems with Dex eating his meals in any of the rooms I put his bowl in.


He's currently on ZiwiPeak dehydrated Lamb and ZiwPeak canned. The dehydrated is crumbly and well you know the consistency of canned. I also give him raw when I can get to the market to get it. The Amish markets here have organic and is less than the grocery stores. I do have K-9 Kravings treats however even when I break them up he takes a bit to chew them as his gums are bloody from loosing his puppy teeth. I also bought dehydrated liver treats. Any suggestions? When I make dinner, he certainly knows that smell. Tonight I am making burgers.  

So no demands right now, right? Just getting him to take the treats/food from hand without demands like "sit?" Just making sure as I do not want to blow what I have to work with.


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## SummerGSDLover (Oct 20, 2013)

Couldn't this behavior be one of the fear periods most puppies go through?

*-*Summer*-*


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Yup all that stuff was the foundation for classical and operant conditioning for dog training, animal training in general, and a lot of the therapies for people as well.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

SummerGSDLover said:


> Couldn't this behavior be one of the fear periods most puppies go through?
> 
> *-*Summer*-*


The odds are fairly high that is playing a role, but regardless of that this isn't something you can just hope goes away on it's own. When it is this pronounced it is a safe bet it won't. You have to take an active role.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

michgill, I wholeheartedly agree with hand feeding him, it may be a tad messy, but it's great for "bonding", (all good things come from hands If he's teething, and you want something 'softer', use string cheese, hotdogs, anything 'soft'..There are all kinds of soft treats/ roll type treats you can cut into tiny pieces available at petstores.

As for the kitchen, maybe it's the flooring? Is it slippery? could be he's never even been on that floor type?? 

I would carry a treat bag with me at all times when he does something "good", or "brave" treat him,,have the kids do it to ! 

Sounds like the breeder was a strange one And if I were you, I'd just ignore the nay sayer uncalled for comments that popped up a couple times in this thread

Hang in there, he will probably teach you more than any dog you've had,,he's absolutely stunning by the way..

Please keep us updated


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## SummerGSDLover (Oct 20, 2013)

Baillif said:


> The odds are fairly high that is playing a role, but regardless of that this isn't something you can just hope goes away on it's own. When it is this pronounced it is a safe bet it won't. You have to take an active role.


Gotcha. Thanks for the info. 

*-*Summer*-*


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

I don't know how a breeder or anyone can guarantee a dog will be well behaved with the unpredictable actions of some autistic children.

I don't know what happened to your pup between birth and 3 months, but he is definitely in a better place now. As others suggested take off the pinch collar. I would never use one, maybe a prong when older.

Now its time to really socialize your dog. Take him and your twins for at least two walks a day. Get him out, let him explore. Go for car rides with the dog and the twins. I know some places may be upsetting to your kids, but there must be some parks or hiking areas that will feel safe for all of you. Establish a safe routine. Do you have any opportunities to attend puppy classes nearby? Let your dog know you love him and will not give up on him. Is your dog responsive to treats for training?

Here's a couple more resources I've found to be helpful with this breed in general, but not specific to shy dog.

Don't Give Up on That Dog by Denine Phillips

On Talking Terms with Dogs: Calming Signals by Turid Rugaas


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## michgill751 (Aug 21, 2013)

*Diane*

I know this probably sounds pretty dumb, I am still trying to figure out responding. It seems I get it right one time and then the next time it tells me the message is too short yet it looks pretty long to me Also just now figured out that I have a message folder. I am not technically inclined and for that I apologize.

Will use the hotdogs 

As for the kitchen, maybe it's the flooring? Is it slippery? could be he's never even been on that floor type?? 

The kitchen floor is tile. He doesn't seem to have any issues walking on it and today he actually ate from his bowl while I was in the kitchen emptying the dishwasher I didn't praise him as I was afraid to startle him. 

Where can I get a treat bag? Do they sell them in the chain stores such as Petsmart/Petco? or do I have to order one online?

Yes, the breeder is strange. And thank you regarding comments. I am here to learn and that's all. My husband, 19 year old son and I are committing ourselves to working with Cyrus so he becomes the dog he was meant to be. I have to tell you that today after starting this thread he's really coming out of his shell. He was playing tug with bubble wrap with our son (autistic) Sam. Cyrus took the bubble wrap from Sam and laid on it on his dog bed. Sam went and got it and we told Sam he had to take it in his playroom. (safety issues which Sam wouldn't understand simply because bubble wrap is unsafe for Cyrus)


Thank you Diane. He's our first ever Sable. Love yours too by the way.


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## michgill751 (Aug 21, 2013)

*Gretchen*



Gretchen said:


> I don't know how a breeder or anyone can guarantee a dog will be well behaved with the unpredictable actions of some autistic children.
> 
> You wouldn't believe how many breeders guarantee their puppies/dogs with children with autism and I wholeheartedly agree with you. Between jerky movements known as stemming and loud vocal stims there are days I could bury my head in the sand.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the above resources, I will look for them on Amazon


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## michgill751 (Aug 21, 2013)

What am I doing wrong in my responses? I notice that when others "quote" it is done differently. I am trying to answer under the response/suggestion but it appears to be getting mixed in with the original response/quote? Thanks.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

yes you can get treat bags at just about any pet store/walmart type store..or you can use those fanny packs they call them? 

Don't worry about how to respond, at the end of the thread, you'll see this box, type what you want and hit post quick reply..If you want to "quote" someone..

In the response box you'll see on the top, little icons..B=Bold, I=italix,,so on,,the last icon is for a quote...

Copy the info from another thread that you want to respond to , hit the quote icon above and 'paste' the wording in between the brackets..

Hey, I am computer stupid! LOL, it has taken me forever to figure out most computer stuff, so don't feel like your the only one who can't figure it out LOL..

Not sure I am explaining right, so I'll try an example in my next post


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

michgill751 said:


> What am I doing wrong in my responses? I notice that when others "quote" it is done differently. I am trying to answer under the response/suggestion but it appears to be getting mixed in with the original response/quote? Thanks.


On the lower right hand corner of the post, where it says quote, is that what you are hitting. It then puts you into the reply screen with the quote in brackets.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

ok, I think I do it different sue LOL..

I went to mitch's post, right clicked, it shows up in 'blue'..

I hit copy...I then

come here, hit the quote icon above this box



> What am I doing wrong in my responses? I notice that when others "quote" it is done differently. I am trying to answer under the response/suggestion but it appears to be getting mixed in with the original response/quote? Thanks.


 
and paste in between the quote wording..I don't think I've ever even used the quote icon on the bottom right side of the screen...duh me


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think we need a computer class LOL


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## michgill751 (Aug 21, 2013)

jakodacd oa said:


> yes you can get treat bags at just about any pet store/walmart type store..or you can use those fanny packs they call them?
> 
> Don't worry about how to respond, at the end of the thread, you'll see this box, type what you want and hit post quick reply..if you want to "quote" someone..
> 
> ...


okay i have a fanny pack, i have just got to find it. This may be of some interest. We are finding that cyrus stays in the same spot for the most part when my husband is walking towards him however if i walk towards him, he runs to his dog bed and gets in it like it's base. I have found this to be interesting? I have never ever hit him or abused him in any way. This makes me sad


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## michgill751 (Aug 21, 2013)

JakodaCD OA said:


> ok, I think I do it different sue LOL..
> 
> I went to mitch's post, right clicked, it shows up in 'blue'..
> 
> ...


Now you've lost me I keep putting caps on so you can see my reply however it doesn't work. Yes, we def need computer classes. The older I get the slower I get


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

no no whatever your doing your doing it RIGHT! LOL...(the quoting!) LOL

it sounds like maybe someone a woman, didn't treat him very well(((


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Just wanted to say, kudos to you for being able to be so amazing with Autistic twins. I know you have no choice, they are your children and you live them and will do whatever you need for them to thrive. But it's hard work. 

My best friend has an autistic son. The therapy and treatment nearly bankrupt them. But her determination inspired the **** out if me. And you know what. Her boy is mainstreamed now, in regular classes and actually no longer tests on the spectrum. But she in one of the few lucky ones. 

Dogs can be an amazing bridge. They are so instinctual. 

I wish you all the best. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## michgill751 (Aug 21, 2013)

gsdsar said:


> Just wanted to say, kudos to you for being able to be so amazing with Autistic twins. I know you have no choice, they are your children and you live them and will do whatever you need for them to thrive. But it's hard work.
> 
> My best friend has an autistic son. The therapy and treatment nearly bankrupt them. But her determination inspired the **** out if me. And you know what. Her boy is mainstreamed now, in regular classes and actually no longer tests on the spectrum. But she in one of the few lucky ones.
> 
> ...


 Thank you for your kind words  This may offend some but God allows things for a reason. He has brought us through quite a bit. On another note, they were not born with autism and though many are still in the dark about vaccines, our boys are vaccine injured. We have learned quite a bit from them. They have complex medical issues including Mitochondrial Myopathy, Eosinophilic Esophagitis and Alpha 1-Antitrypsin Deficiency. NO ONE on either side of our families have any of these so called genetic diseases. 

Sadly enough, over 2 decades ago, we could feed our dogs table food scraps and kibble and they never had GI/allergy issues. Dogs are now being diagnosed with human diseases and while many are baffled it is because of vaccines and cheap dog food and dog food being imported from China as well as environmental triggers such a lawn chemicals, household chemicals, and even the chemicals put on dogs to treat fleas/ticks. ALL of these chemicals cause a variety of reactions. The dogs of today have more health issues than the dogs of our youth. Vaccine ingredients are public knowledge and yet people refuse to do the research. If people actually looked into the ingredients they would be horrified. Vaccines are a means of depopulation. Okay, I am done my rant, sorry


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## michgill751 (Aug 21, 2013)

JakodaCD OA said:


> no no whatever your doing your doing it RIGHT! LOL...(the quoting!) LOL
> 
> it sounds like maybe someone a woman, didn't treat him very well(((


Sad thing about it is that he was suppose to be mostly my companion as I wanted to get into some obedience and possibly therapy work. He seems to want to jump on my husband and mouth him. Hmmmm….Cyrus did try to mount Stevie while Stevie was rolled up in his blanket a day or so ago? Cyrus puts his paw around my husband's leg as well. Why would he want to mount my husband? Trying to figure out dog behavior is not for the birds.


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

michgill751 - There are so many degrees of autism, you definitely have a more complicated bunch. With you daily lives so complicated, I could imagine how frustrated you've been with your breeder and dog. My daughter (a twin also) had complications from cerebral palsy when she was younger. After surgeries and many other issues, she has improved, but the best therapy for her was getting a dog when she was in junior high. I got the dog for me, as a walking companion, but it ended up giving my daughter such a sense of independence. I pray Cyrus will be good for your family, just like a dog did for ours.


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## michgill751 (Aug 21, 2013)

Gretchen said:


> michgill751 - There are so many degrees of autism, you definitely have a more complicated bunch. With you daily lives so complicated, I could imagine how frustrated you've been with your breeder and dog. My daughter (a twin also) had complications from cerebral palsy when she was younger. After surgeries and many other issues, she has improved, but the best therapy for her was getting a dog when she was in junior high. I got the dog for me, as a walking companion, but it ended up giving my daughter such a sense of independence. I pray Cyrus will be good for your family, just like a dog did for ours.


Our kids' are miracles Gretchen (meaning yours, mine and every other child having to fight a battle in this world) I am praying too that Cyrus will come around and I think he will. 

I did a little experimenting and whoever sits in the recliner he comes to and wants attention not just my husband. Still trying to figure this one out? He's warming up slowly and the "yes" is working. I have added treats into it as well not just petting. We are keeping eye contact to a minimum when walking toward him or in his direction so we do not make him feel uncomfortable as well. And reinforcing positive behaviors.


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## michgill751 (Aug 21, 2013)

This was so unexpected and awesome…I went into our twins' playroom to get diapers so I could stock them and Cyrus laid outside of the door. HUGE!!!! He's not ever done that in the short 3 weeks 4 days he's been here but who's counting. HOORAY! He was watching me and I almost walked on him as it was so unexpected. He didn't jump up and run for his bed either  I am super excited!!!! He's laying at my feet right now as I type


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It sounds like he is starting to settle. 

I would still check out the shy dog stuff, because yours really had a pretty extreme reaction to being rehomed/long recovery. They can help you find the best methods of building him up, but it sounds like you are already making good progress.


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## michgill751 (Aug 21, 2013)

selzer said:


> It sounds like he is starting to settle.
> 
> I would still check out the shy dog stuff, because yours really had a pretty extreme reaction to being rehomed/long recovery. They can help you find the best methods of building him up, but it sounds like you are already making good progress.


I wholeheartedly agree. Baby steps here. Hoping he fully recovers from whatever happened. He was in ground transport 2 days loner than expected. Crated for the first time during that transport as well. 3 days in a crate. I can't blame him for not wanting to be crated. Another challenge for later.


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