# raising a puppy not using bite inhibition



## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

neb is a little land shark and will tug anything he can, very persistently - which i'm thrilled with. i'm trying to raise him and learn as much as i can about maximizing drive and confidence. he is 8.5 weeks old.

so, one of the things i'm doing is i'm trying not to build bite inhibition. instead of yelping or something, i work on redirecting him onto a tug/toy. 

neb came to a bbq we had a my bf's sunday b/c there was lots of people there and it's a good opportunity for him to be around a lot of people.

he stole the show, people were all wanting to spending time w/him, when i had to go to the neighbours to get some chairs, no need to put him in the crate as everyone wanted to take him, people were taking pics w/him, etc.

some people encouraged him to bite their shoes etc, and some people would yelp if he got them - i don't want either to occur, and i explained that i wanted him redirected instead.

did anyone else do something similar with their pups? how did they handle this when socializing the pups? i'm not sure people really understood that i want to build his drive, and not discourage him - just wondering what other people have done, or if i'm completely crazy (am hoping maybe to take him to a picnic this saturday, so would appreciate any suggestions). 

one thing i thought was at the picnic, if i bring him, i won't have to run around getting stuff so much so i can be with him and redirect him myself more.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

I understand you are wanting to maximize drive and confidence, but why is it that he can't learn not to bite people?

If you want him to be a little land shark that bites everything that gets close enough to his mouth, you really should KEEP HIM AWAY FROM PEOPLE. What happens when he shredds a friend or their child. (I don't mean in a "vicious" way, but we all know how puppy teeth can shred skin.)


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: BlackGSD What happens when he shredds a friend or their child.


 It could be worse, he can shred a stranger who then can be very happy to go around your neighborhood with a petition. 

I think even SchH people while redirecting are teaching their pups manners and don't tolerate nipping their family and friends.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: GSD07
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: BlackGSD What happens when he shredds a friend or their child.
> ...


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## OllieGSD (Feb 21, 2007)

I think you are making a huge mistake if you do not teach your dog bite inhibition. Dogs are genetically programmed w/ drive or not. It is either there or not. You can do a bit to encourage drive, but the blueprint is genetic and it is not possible to build it. It is irresponsible not to teach the dog basic manners. Keeping it's mouth of humans is rule number 1. It needs to learn how to deal w/ frustration not biting when or it wants and patience etc. or you will have a dog that will end up dangerous. It’s an 8 week old puppy - a BABY why don’t you spend time socializing, house training, having fun w/ the dog as opposed to worrying about drives etc.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

OK....maybe I wasn't clear/using the wrong term. I don't tolerate him biting people - it's not okay. But I'm redirecting him rather than using other methods like yelping, and people don't seem to get that. 

The people at the bbq who were encouraging him to go after shoes etc I stopped immediately, b/c that's not the behaviour I want from him and I don't encourage it - any time he goes for clothes/body parts he is redirected.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Did everyone at the BBQ had something to redirect him to? Like a toy, stick, towel? Maybe they actually were redirecting to their shoes because they didn't want to be nipped.

I remember with Yana all those ouches and yelps were waste of time and the redirection was my only option. Also I remember how often I wasn't fast enough and her teeth closed on my hand instead of on the toy (I still have scars on my arms and legs). You'll have to pay for the redirection process with your blood







but I wouldn't expect others willing to do that. I supervised Yana all the time especially with kids. The good thing is that Yana is a super tugger right now, it's her favorite game and most desirable reward. And she still gets me sometimes when I'm not fast enough







Good luck with your pup!


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## dOg (Jan 23, 2006)

Bite inhibition is going to be learned with a pack as large as your's, anyhow. They're going to yelp when bit. Learning bite inhibition is not 
a bad thing, and won't stop him from biting hard when it's a tug or sleeve. Knowing when it's appropriate will come quickly with redirection soon enough, and I'll bet the farm you'll be yelping too in short order.
Mouthing softly he'll be able to drink your essence in, biting, he won't,
so will quickly learn the difference, regardless.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I agree with Tracy's post also, people won't do what you ask them to if you are not there to step in. Also I don't allow others to correct my puppy or discipline him, I'm there to take care of that myself.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

Yes, they did have something to redirect him to. It was only a couple of people who thought it was fun to get him to hang off their shoes, and I was like NO - he can bite to his heart's content, but not clothing or body parts. 

I do have a feeling the dogs will teach him to some degree too. The biggest thing I took out of the bbq was that since I did have to do a couple of things, I should've put him in the crate and just explained that was b/c of training. At the picnic, while I'm technically the hostest, I won't have to be running off and I'll keep him w/me at all times, and that should be fine. 

I should stress - nobody had issues with him. in the past few days, he has become able to cut/slice me, he wasn't before, so yup - I'm redirecting a lot faster!


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: dOgI'll bet the farm you'll be yelping too in short order.


I was yelping and I was crying and my little puppy from **** Yana was eating me alive no matter what. I still can't believe how gentle she is right now and how she stops immediately when she accidentally touches my skin.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

i do notice neb is WAY better than redirecting than when we started. i'm happy with it b/c it does seem to be effective and biting is all positive for him.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

LOL 

You really want to avoid posting this kind of thing in the regular puppy section. That way you don't have to read posts about calling animal control about your "killer attack puppy"!









Here is the way I approached it. I don't want my puppy to interact with others the same way he does with me. With me you can show power, bite and we will work together to develop that. With others, I want him to be calm unless on a field, so I set him up for success. Before any interaction with others I would exercise him as much as possible, and then feed him. Now, when others come over they have clear cut rules. No quick movements (prey like). It is not funny to move your shoe quickly to get the puppy to latch on. We will not play chase, and nobody is prepared for the way my puppy would play with a ball or toy (especially after 3 months of age). Calm petting is the only interaction I want, and I supervise every single second. If I cannot, or my guests want to operate on the own agenda the pup is crated. It is much easier to start young and establish a separation of behavior between field and home as well as you (handler) and others that will carry over to adult life.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: OllieGSDI think you are making a huge mistake if you do not teach your dog bite inhibition. Dogs are genetically programmed w/ drive or not. It is either there or not. You can do a bit to encourage drive, but the blueprint is genetic and it is not possible to build it. It is irresponsible not to teach the dog basic manners. Keeping it's mouth of humans is rule number 1. It needs to learn how to deal w/ frustration not biting when or it wants and patience etc. or you will have a dog that will end up dangerous. It’s an 8 week old puppy - a BABY why don’t you spend time socializing, house training, having fun w/ the dog as opposed to worrying about drives etc.


Have you ever actually trained in drive? Why don't you spend time responding to questions about socializing, house training and having fun with puppies as opposed to worrying about giving advice that will mess up drive building and foundation work for others?


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

thanks very much john, that's really helpful! i was hoping you'd see this. 

i realized for sure, my problem w/the bbq was that b/c it was that i wasn't controlling the interactions enough. what you've laid out is great.

from all the reading i've done, and seeing what working people have posted on other forums, what i'm doing w/neb isn't uncommon for working homes in terms of redirecting, not correcting, etc, and encouraging drives and making that the focus. i know that i'm not as experienced, so it's a learning process for me. 

i do recognize neb is an off-breed to say the least....in terms of developing his prey, he is part husky, and i'm starting to get a lot of comments that dad may have been an off-breed which does sometimes compete in SchH and FR (and which is banned here in ontario and would make neb subject to bsl/euth, so if anyone comments about his head shape etc i've got my 'he's part lab!' comments ready). 

anyways, my thought is - i want to get a mal one day and do FR. the timing didn't work now b/c i'd have to get a car, and financially i won't be buying one for about 4 years. but in the meantime, i see this as a golden opportunity to practise raising a working dog, learning about building drives, maximizing his natural drives, and building confidence in a dog. sort of like a test run. and my other thought, though i'll see how he develops, is the person i plan to train FR w/seems to be fairly open to different breeds (i've been out to visit a training session and am in touch w/someone who trains w/him who has mals from the breeder i'm looking at) - i've been invited to continue to visit the field to watch training so i can learn more about FR - maybe neb and i could do some FR training, again, as a learning experience, recognising that he is an 'off'-breed and that would likely impact how far he can go. i'm not sure how the trainer would feel about that though, it's just something i'm kicking around in my head now though even to do it in a more relaxed way i'd still have to figure out transportation issues. i haven't approached him at all, again, it's just something i thought would be great from a learning perspective.

....not that that was too long-winded


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: ZeusGSDLOL
> 
> You really want to avoid posting this kind of thing in the regular puppy section. That way you don't have to read posts about calling animal control about your "killer attack puppy"!


I think maybe you should re-read what was posted. NOTHING was said about a "killer attack puppy".


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: BlackGSDI think maybe you should re-read what was posted. NOTHING was said about a "killer attack puppy".


O.K., I re-read what was posted. So, why else would someone call animal control??? 

Let me elaborate a bit. We are talking about an off breed here, and let me be clear - there is nothing wrong with off breeds and mix's. But, if training in drive is what the OP's objective is here she will need to stack the environmental deck of cards in her favor since she did not start with perfect genetics. Telling her to take a dog whose drive and bite is being developed and keep him away from people is a wonderful way to develop a fear aggressive nutcase. Since this is a mix whose genetics have not carefully been planned in effort to develop a supremely confident animal the socialization is KEY (magnified x10 if the possible cross she mentioned). This is a delicate endeavor, but one that can absolutely be achieved. The end result is not dangerous or irresponsible, it's a confident dog who is easily motivated and therefore easily trainable and not aggressive.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

and so far he is really good with people - his reaction to strangers is a wiggle butt. i can't say for sure if he's the cross he may be - the father is unknown, and it's a bit soon to say for sure, but i've had a few comments, i can see it (taking into account he is young) and i've approached people familiar w/the breed and they're split on it. 

i adopted him b/c of his personality and fitting into my pack, first and foremost. i've been pleased to see he is confident in new situations, with new noises, and doesn't seem to have issues w/'scary' things. it is also early days though.

to have him well-socialized is really important to me, for a number of reasons - it's just basically important, i have an example of what happens when a dog's world is severely contracted for years in luc, and b/c i don't want any possible issues, especially if i think his mix is a potential risk (not from the perspective that there's anything wrong w/the breed, simply from a bsl perspective). also, b/c when i get the mal, i want to have the dog that is a good house dog and can go out on the field and perform at a high level. 

john, you've expressed very well what i've been thinking but perhaps not able to communicate. i want to understand how to develop his drive, how to work w/a dog to do so, and to raise them where they can be highly socialized but still have lots of drive. when i noticed how well he's doing w/tugging i decided that i would take this as far as i can w/him and hopefully have a great learning process as a result, as well as developing him into a confident, well-socialized dog. 

if i don't take him to the picnic this weekend, it's mostly going to be b/c it's in a park, and he's only had his first set of shots. there shouldn't be any dogs running free in the area we'd be in but i'm still not sure i want him there.


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## OllieGSD (Feb 21, 2007)

Hey John,

I really appreciate your advice for me to

“Why don't you spend time responding to questions about socializing, house training and having fun with puppies as opposed to worrying about giving advice that will mess up drive building and foundation work for others?.”

Since you are the expert did it cross your mind to ask jarn what type of training Schh, FR or protection the puppy is being imprinted for? It makes a difference. Do you think it would be helpful to find out what experience jarn has w/ training in drive or raising a puppy for that matter? Do you think a first time dog owner should focus on the basics (socialization, housetraining etc.) or advanced imprinting theories? Maybe you could point to an experienced trainer who tells their students not to teach an 8 week old puppy to keep its mouth off people because it will hurt “drive.” 



Rag and tug work is great for a puppy of 8 weeks to build confidence as part of an overall training strategy, but that was not what the original post said. The original post asked “raising a puppy not using bite inhibition.” I guess it doesn’t matter because this is just jarn’s practice dog until she can get a mal and do FR. Good Grief…..

So in your words “as opposed to worrying about giving advice that will mess up drive building and foundation work” Why don’t you realize that you are no expert on dogs and when people respond to a post as unclear and misleading as this maybe a little less sanctimony from you would be helpful.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

okay....i thought i was clear in my original post i was redirecting neb (ETA that the original posts states more than once that i was using redirection), rather than using other methods, and that he was not allowed to bite people or clothing at will, but clearly i was not. i apologize for that.

john has been helpful to me here and on another board w/respect to my other dogs, and while i don't want to speak for him, he probably has a pretty good handle on what my experience is. 

i'm not going to lay claim to being the most experienced person - but i can only gain it one way. i can definitely see that i need to make changes from the bbq in terms of not allowing other people to handle him as i did. 

in terms of neb being my 'practice' dog - that's a bit of a silly way to put it; i did not adopt neb for that reason - as i stated, i adopted him b/c i liked his personality and he was chosen for fit w/my existing dogs. 

when i noticed he has good prey drive and loves to tug, i decided to try to work w/him - hopefully doing some FR foundation work - as far as i can. and i really don't see what is wrong with that. no, i don't expect he will do as well as a mal would. but working w/him and training him towards a sport i'm interested in, even if we don't go far, is a great experience for both of us in terms of bonding and confidence. i know of people who do SchH obedience and tracking w/their dogs, but for instance don't expect them to excel in the protection aspect so don't trial them - i don't see how this is different or that i'm doing something wrong.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: OllieGSD why don’t you spend time socializing, house training, having fun w/ the dog as opposed to worrying about drives etc.





Ollie,

I am not an expert, and those were not my words you are quoting. They were originally your words, and they set the tone for my response. 

I know exactly what the OP was looking to do with her pup since she has a history on this board as well as another board that we have been on together. I know her experience level, as well as what she has been through and how much time she puts into her dogs. I also suggested she avoid posting this here for this very reason. I can point to *all* SchH and FR trainers that tell their students not to teach an 8 week old puppy bite inhibition regardless of situation. Their response to the question is simple - if it's an issue you have a crate - use it.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: ZeusGSDCalm petting is the only interaction I want, and I supervise every single second. If I cannot, or my guests want to operate on the own agenda the pup is crated.


Excellent post, John (except making fun of other posters







). I absolutely agree with everything you said about raising a working pup and I quoted the KEY part that jarn missed and that's why got quite the appropriate responses. You supervise! every! single! second! but she left her pup with the strangers who had no clue and left to neighbors to bring some stuff.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

And Oksana - absolutely - that is what I missed, and what I'll do different from now on. John's post was very helpful, and it is entirely my fault for allowing other people to watch him rather than simply crating him when I wasn't there to supervise. I would say I was there with him 90% of the time, but that's not good enough. 

And I will say - I have been researching as much as possible this, as well as going to watch a couple of different clubs train FR and to watch a FR trial, and I didn't think how I referred to bite inhibition was odd at all - what John said in his last post is my understanding. Redirection rather than bite inhibition - but that a lack of bite inhibition doesn't mean an out-of-control pup. 

ETA: and maybe I accidentally gave the impression Neb was out of control and attacking everyone at the bbq, which is not at all the case. Like I said, I was with him at least 90% of the time, and I was there to stop it when people thought it was cute he hang from their shoes. From now on though I will follow John's suggestion about how he interacts with other people.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: GSD07 (except making fun of other posters
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry. Sarcasm alert.







I just get my hackles up a bit when words like irresponsible and huge mistake are used in reference to a type of training that is used often - and is not irresponsible or a mistake. But just like anything, it's hard to understand if you have not seen or done it.


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## OllieGSD (Feb 21, 2007)

John,

You may well believe that the OP can make her current dog into a reliable dog trained for protection work, you may also believe that would be a good thing. I happen to think you're quite wrong on both counts. Yes, *anyone* can teach a dog to bite and hang on. Teaching the dog *when* that is appropriate, and when it is *not* and being able to put it on a reliable cue is difficult enough even with a dog bred for it, close to impossible with one who is not. The advice on here to just bond with the dog and work with it on other things, will make it a far more reliable companion dog. Putting a half-baked course of bite training (which is what the OP is likely to end up with because ethical trainers who understand and do real protection work simply will not work with an unsuitable dog ie. A / lab/ husky mix OP thinks?) is not in my opinion a good idea. Jarn could just as easily gain the drive training experience she wants for a sport like agility that is more suited to the dogs mixed breeding rather than the enormously difficult task of protection work. Why teach a dog unsuitable to the sport to bite as a puppy when it does not have any chance to compete in the sport as an adult? Is that fair to the dog or the owner? 

As for your analogy, that “all SchH and FR trainers tell their students not to teach an 8 week old puppy bite inhibition regardless of situation doesn’t hold up. Yes, in an ideal world, all trainers would be skilled enough to determine which dogs were good candidates for formal protection work and train them appropriately and were ethical enough to turn away those (and thus the potential $$$) that aren't, but sadly that is absolutely not the case. Experienced trainers would have looked at that puppy and suggested another sport, certainly not encouraging jarn not to teach the dog bite inhibition. 

I do not use words like huge mistake and irresponsible lightly, but apparently you do not keep the same standards when you pass out your “expertise.”


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

1. lots of off-breed dogs compete in FR

2. tugging is not bitework


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## OllieGSD (Feb 21, 2007)

1. True - but they almost always have at least a part of the mix a working dog. Lab / husky cross is not even in the same ball park.

2. You are not talking about tugging. This is about not doing everything in your power to make the dog a reliable companion. Teaching a dog to bite a human--and bite *hard*, as a good protection dog should-- is very serious business. Most well bred dogs are not suited for it.

You are talking about teaching a dog unsuited to either schH or FR to bite and bite hard. For what purpose?


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

Ummm....I think you're reading WAY too much into what I've written. I've never said that, at all.

I'm talking about building/maximizing his drive and confidence through tugging. And as part of that, rather than yelping or correcting (such as one might correct a puppy his age) I am redirecting him if he bites inappropriately - i.e., human body parts or clothing. 

I have said that consistently, from the very first post in this that I REDIRECTED onto a sock or tug (as he grows). I have heard working people refer to this as how you raise a pup w/out bite inhibition. I've already covered that if I used the term wrong, I apologize, but I really think I've made that clear, several times.

There is more to both SchH and FR than bitework. I used the example of knowing people who train SchH obedience and tracking but don't do the bitework/protection aspect and don't trial. A foundation in FR doesn't necessarily include the bitework aspect - it can include the agility (jumps) and obedience/retrieval exercises too. And LOTS of people train these using drive. I am building his drive in tugging.

Nowhere did I say I would be teaching him bitework. I said I would like to lay a FR foundation as far as appropriate - APPROPRIATE being the operative word. 

I really do think you're assuming things that are simply not the case.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

PLEASE, tell me where I said I was training him in bitework. And please don't tell me what I will or will not be doing with my dog based on words I never wrote. 




> Originally Posted By: jarnanyways, my thought is - i want to get a mal one day and do FR. the timing didn't work now b/c i'd have to get a car, and financially i won't be buying one for about 4 years. but in the meantime, i see this as a golden opportunity to practise raising a working dog, learning about building drives, maximizing his natural drives, and building confidence in a dog. sort of like a test run. and my other thought, though i'll see how he develops, is the person i plan to train FR w/seems to be fairly open to different breeds (i've been out to visit a training session and am in touch w/someone who trains w/him who has mals from the breeder i'm looking at) - i've been invited to continue to visit the field to watch training so i can learn more about FR - maybe neb and i could do some FR training, again, as a learning experience, recognising that he is an 'off'-breed and that would likely impact how far he can go. i'm not sure how the trainer would feel about that though, it's just something i'm kicking around in my head now though even to do it in a more relaxed way i'd still have to figure out transportation issues. i haven't approached him at all, again, it's just something i thought would be great from a learning perspective.





> Originally Posted By: jarnto have him well-socialized is really important to me, for a number of reasons - it's just basically important, i have an example of what happens when a dog's world is severely contracted for years in luc, and b/c i don't want any possible issues, especially if i think his mix is a potential risk (not from the perspective that there's anything wrong w/the breed, simply from a bsl perspective). also, b/c when i get the mal, i want to have the dog that is a good house dog and can go out on the field and perform at a high level.
> 
> john, you've expressed very well what i've been thinking but perhaps not able to communicate. i want to understand how to develop his drive, how to work w/a dog to do so, and to raise them where they can be highly socialized but still have lots of drive. when i noticed how well he's doing w/tugging i decided that i would take this as far as i can w/him and hopefully have a great learning process as a result, as well as developing him into a confident, well-socialized dog.





> Originally Posted By: jarnwhen i noticed he has good prey drive and loves to tug, i decided to try to work w/him - hopefully doing some FR foundation work - as far as i can. and i really don't see what is wrong with that. no, i don't expect he will do as well as a mal would. but working w/him and training him towards a sport i'm interested in, even if we don't go far, is a great experience for both of us in terms of bonding and confidence. i know of people who do SchH obedience and tracking w/their dogs, but for instance don't expect them to excel in the protection aspect so don't trial them - i don't see how this is different or that i'm doing something wrong.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

O.K. Ollie sarcasm goes out the window. 

Have you ever trained using prey drive???!!! You avoided the question before, so I ask it again. 

Foundation work done in prey with a young dog is not serious protection. A puppy is not showing aggression when biting in prey, and it does not increase aggression by doing so. Breed has little to do with protection work, especially when it comes to sport applications which is specifically what the OP is talking about. There was a golden retriever that attained a SchH3 title. Drive is drive. Prey drive is completely different than defense, aggression and civility. You keep referring to types of training that it's painfully obvious you know nothing about. The trainer I work with will work with any dog provided it has drive, and if they don't he's 100% honest with the handler. Training in prey is literally just another way to motivate her dog. Period. The fact that you don't understand it and have never experienced it does not make it evil or irresponsible or bad. If you met my 21 month old female you would have no idea that she has been in protection work and trained in prey since she was 11 weeks old. She is rock solid with children of all ages, great with people and the sweetest most calm dog in the world at home. When she hits a field... look out. Whether or not she can be a successful personal protection dog or not does not change anything. 

Please stop making statements about training methods like they are fact when you have obviously never trained in this way.


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## OllieGSD (Feb 21, 2007)

Excuse me - The discussion about not teaching bite inhibition in SchH and FR is so that when the dog is ready for BITE work it will not have had negative associations (being corrected verbally for biting thus diminishing drive and its desire to bite the sleeve.) Why else if not for BITE work would you worry about diminishing the desire to bite? Their are many ways to encourage drive, but I will restate that dogs either have the genetic disposition to be drivey or not. 

As for your idea of joining a SchH or FR club to train tracking and obed - good luck. Most clubs want members willing to train their dogs all the way to title. It brings prestige to their clubs.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: OllieGSDExcuse me - The discussion about not teaching bite inhibition in SchH and FR is so that when the dog is ready for BITE work it will not have had negative associations (being corrected verbally for biting thus diminishing drive and its desire to bite the sleeve.) Why else if not for BITE work would you worry about diminishing the desire to bite? Their are many ways to encourage drive, but I will restate that dogs either have the genetic disposition to be drivey or not.


Why else if not for bite work? To use as motivation in performing other tasks that are part of the sport. To use as a reward. 

And guess what....just bringing out a dog's drive and working with it - and yes, I've made numerous comments about MAXIMIZING his drive - does not mean he'll be biting people left right and centre. Me wanting to learn how to work with a dog in drive does not automatically indicate bitework - I'm honestly shocked that would be your assumption.

Thanks for the heads up on what clubs expect....Like I said, I've already met the person I want to train with, and been out to the field to watch training sessions. He's actually not a club, though he does train with several people and their dogs. And he's been a director for ARF and NARA, and actually now his breed of choice is an off-breed. ETA: Like I said, I haven't approached him yet, b/c I have to figure out transportation and it's just been watching Neb recently that I've thought it's worthwhile to train this way. BUT regardless of whether or not I do train some FR basics with him, like I said, I can still work on training my dog in drive.


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## OllieGSD (Feb 21, 2007)

John,

Yes I have trained my dog while it is in different states of drive. I belong to a Schutzhund club now. I understand that bite / protection work are different for actual protection dogs and sport dogs. I do not think that ring sports or schH are bad or evil or that it fundamentally changes the dog or I would not train in it. I am no expert when it comes to drive training, but I do also know that very few people are experts. I understand your point about the Golden attaining a schH3, but how many other golden’s have achieved it? My point being that the Golden must have had some terrific genes (genes probably outside the standard for the breed) and training to accomplish it. I believe that dogs come genetically predisposed to be drivey or not. Training can enhance the baseline drive or diminish it, but not fundamentally alter it.

What bothered me about the original post was the way it was stated. It was not very clear about what the OP wanted to do. At our club we see weekend warriors come and go all the time. They have their weird ideas about training for aggression wanting their little puppy to protect them etc. When they realize the years of commitment w/ out guarantees of success the sport requires we rarely see them again. And when those people end up w/ a monster of a dog at 9 months because they did not understand what the “trainer” meant by “not training for bite inhibition “ the dog ends up in the pound. So when I see a post like the original it makes me concerned because I hate to see dogs and owner suffer. 

Then I got mad because you were sarcastic and dismissive to not only my post, but to others.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

What bothered me is you stating I was training bitework, or would be, when I never made any such comment. I think I was pretty consistent about wanting to learn how to maximize drive and build confidence - if I can pick up knowledge about training FR - such as FR obedience - along the way, I'll be thrilled. 

If it wasn't clear to you what I wanted to do, why didn't you just ask, instead of making assumptions and stating things which had no basis in fact or in what I had written.

You made a lot of huge assumptions that had no basis in anything I wrote, particularly since I was pretty consistent in saying that I did not, and do not, find it acceptable for Neb to bite people or clothing - he is redirected.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

Oh, and to note - I don't expect ANY of my dogs to protect me. My job is to protect THEM. And if I did want a dog to protect, I certainly wouldn't be doing either SchH or FR (sport) training with it.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

Ollie,

Logic and explanation! I recognize that! Your last post makes perfect sense.

The easiest way to determine someone's goals and motivation is to simply ask questions. I knew exactly what the OP was getting at. She has two GSD's, one of which could be a PPD if she wanted. Her female is a lot of dog, and rather sharp. Instead, she has worked to socialize and control the dog as much as possible. Along the way she has gained interest in understanding different drives and now wants to train her pup using prey drive because surprise surprise he has some!


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

Well, if this thread made me do one thing (other than determine that he's not out w/out me during socialization) it was actually contact Paul, even though Neb is only 8.5 weeks old. He said I could absolutely come out w/Neb as often as I could, and not to write him off until we see what he has (but I am definitely remembering that he's an off-breed - like I said though, he's happy to work w/off-breeds). So that's good! We'll see how it goes.

(also, yup....huskies have a wee little bit of prey drive







)


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