# AKC Papers Waiting; Waiting;Waiting . . .



## DrTak (Apr 11, 2009)

I bought a Puppy in September from a breeder at age 8 weeks that was to have "limited AKC Papers". It is now April, the dog is 9 months old, the breeder did not send me any papers despite 4 requests, and does not answer my inquiries.

I love the dog, but it seems like I have paid for a papered dog, and a GSD without papers is not as expensive. Am I being unreasonable in expecting papers by now? Do I need to sue her? Report her to some regulator? Post her name on the internet? 

I'd appreciate hearing what breeders have to say about papers.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

I sent you a PM.


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## gsdlove212 (Feb 3, 2006)

I don't know waht to suggest that you do, but if I purchased an 8 week old pup that was supposed to have papers and I did not recieve them by 9 months I would be getting pretty agitated....since your breeder is not answering your questions reguarding this I would be doubly aggrivated. Good luck with this situation, hopefully someone here will be able to give you some insight/advice on this matter.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

Can you go visit her? I would be knocking at her door if I had to.I would imagine you can report her to the AKC. Have you sent her emails?If so send another with a receipt requested so you know she got it.Hope you get it taken care of.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Lots of times with European imports, the owner of one of them gets mired down in trying to get all their ducks in a row to get the dog registered....if one of the parents was imported, it may be that the papers of the parent are in process, and until that registration is in order - then no litter papers!

If the imported parent was registered in more than one country in Europe - Germany and Belgium for example - there may be another fly in the ointment to be addressed before the export papers can be issued. Unfortunately, not everyone who imports, or buys an import from a broker, is savvy enough to know if the paperwork is in order!!! I know a guy who bought a Czech import puppy off of a guy who bought it from the importer - that was a nightmare to unravel - I think the dog was 3 before he got papers...

If you bought from a reputable breeder, he may be able to explain the hold up....and please understand that these things are not uncommon - you may be fine and the papers are just in a quagmire at AKC

Lee


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## spartshep (Feb 20, 2008)

There are plenty of extenuating circumstances that are valid. If any of them is the reason for not getting papers to the client, that should have been communicated prior to accepting deposit/payment in full such that the client can make an informed decision on how he/she would like to proceed. Communication is essential and part of our job as breeders. Failure to communicate is absolutely unacceptable.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

It took me over a year to get papers on one of my dogs from the breeder overseas. That being said, AKC can be slow, but IMO, as akc can and HAS lost paperwork, I don't breed any dogs that aren't akc registered already before being bred. Too much of a hassle, and possible nightmare.


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## mkennels (Feb 12, 2008)

If the paperwork is delayed and she knows it she should at least tell you what she is doing and what is going on, but the way it sounds you have contacted her several times and she isn't returning any calls/emails then she is super busy (but it only takes a couple of minutes to write and send an email about the papers) or she is advoiding you, if you know the parents akc names of your pup I would email her and tell her if you don't hear from her soon you will be contacting akc about this.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

You said something about limited registration which probably rules out Foreign imports. If you paid full ownership money you should have papers or an update on the situation at least every two months(8 wks), I would never buy something on limited registration and CERTAINLY not pay full money for limited registration. JMO


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

there is no correlation between puppies from imported dogs and registering those pups with limited registration. Once the parents are registered properly, their offspring are eligible for AKC papers, and many many good breeders do use the limited registration to ensure that their pups are only bred if and after meeting pre-agreed upon criteria such as hip clearances and titles.

Lee


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Bottom line as the OPs original posts seemed to have been steared off course.....

If the breeder stated limited (for whatever reason - that is not the question here), it sounds like the parents were. The breeder owes you the papers now.

There have been dogs bred in the states, been in the states for quite some time and not AKC registered yet, but being bred to. Not good.

We just did a foreign registration: turnaround was 1.5 weeks! And the DNA was very quick as well (required for foreign dogs)

I agree; for a foreign dog, we will do no breedings until AKC is done and DNA. That is the responsible thing to do - you have no control over what the stud dog owner does in terms of paperwork, but you have control over what you do as a breeder.


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## SouthernThistle (Nov 16, 2005)

DrTak, was the litter registered? Did you sign a contract that stated the papers would be available by a certain period of time?

I would be visiting the breeder as well as sending them a certified letter since your calls, etc. have been unanswered.

When we purchased Grimm, we were handed the AKC registration paperwork that day. We just had to choose a name, fill it out, and send it in.


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## DrTak (Apr 11, 2009)

I thought we had a reputable breeder: <span style="color: #FF6666">{Breeders Name Removed Per Board Rules by Admin. Wisc.Tiger}</span> in Montana. I have sent many communications, but get odd stuff back.

At age six months, I wrote with pics and said: "By the way, we never have gotten his papers. Could you check into it for me and let me know?" No response.
An additional e-mail following one week later got this response: "I had to request new papers from the AKC and recently received the new packet. The co-breeder has been out of town, her grandfather was recently diagnosed with brain cancer and other cancer running through his entire body and now has less than a month to live. When the timing is good I will stop by and have her sign everything so I can get them mailed off."

That was over two months ago. My latest request was met with: "I have the papers on my desk. I am leaving for Arizona tomorrow to say my goodbyes to my grandmother who is battling cancer and won't be with us much longer. When I return I will get them mailed out."

It seems like these papers will not go out until everyone this woman knows dies of cancer. Am I being crass, or does this all seem fishy to anyone else? 

I do not know how I would contact the AKC, or if there is anything else I should do. Like I said, I'm not breeding him, and I am happy with the dog, but this seems almost like a scam of some sort.


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## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

I think you are maybe posting a bit too much personal information here about your breeder. 

Good luck with getting the papers. But, unless you are going to compete in some type of AKC event, don't see what good they are going to do you anyway....


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Branca's MomI think you are maybe posting a bit too much personal information here about your breeder.
> 
> Good luck with getting the papers. But, unless you are going to compete in some type of AKC event, don't see what good they are going to do you anyway....


Tammy,
It's just the point of paying the price for an AKC dog.I knew I wasn't getting papers on Athena till she was spayed but I wanted the papers soon after not months after.

Hopefully in a week or 2 her family business will be settled and she can mail out the papers.I would think if they were all filled out the other breeder involved could have mailed them.Good luck.


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## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

I know, I know... the statement """ It seems like these papers will not go out until everyone this woman knows dies of cancer. """ just rubbed me the wrong way. Bad me!!


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

It does sound a little strange to me. If she had the time to reply to your email, she had time to stick the papers in an envelope and mail them out BEFORE she left on her trip.

How long ago was your LAST email FROM the breeder?


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I went through this with Havoc. He was almost 18 months before I got papers.

Try a certified letter, give her a deadline to send the papers and then follow through with legal action, file a complaint with the District attorney too. You can go to http://www.akc.org and cll customer service and file a complaint against her with the AKC.

There is a method that AKC will give you papers if you know the parents. Ask them how. That was my next step with Havoc's breeder and I found out she had never registered the litter or the import dam. What finally shook papers lose was the threat of law suit.


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## OkieAmazon (Jun 14, 2005)

I got my Czech imports papers from the Czech Republic in less than three weeks. Every other time I have bought a pup, papers came shipped WITH or I left premises with pup in one arm and papers in the other.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

If you don't get your application in another week/two, you call AKC and ask if the litter registration has been processed. I know someone who did that because of a co-owner/signature issue, and AKC will contact both and give them a nudge...(not same breeder)

Lee


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## DrTak (Apr 11, 2009)

Sorry to have posted an actual name against rules; I had gotten a PM asking for the breeder's name, and got a little mixed up between posts and PMs.

I know the cancer statement seems a bit personal, but that was my point -- this is a business relationship; I do not need nor want to know about people in her life dying of cancer -- I just want my dog's papers, for which she was paid long ago. Now, excuses of sick or dead relatives seem childish and inappropriate. I posted here, because I am not a breeder, and I simply wanted to know if my expectations were excessive. I just cannot understand how someone cannot put something in an envelope until someone passes on. I feel like that cannot be the whole truth.

Thanks for the responses. I will wait one more week, then send that certified letter and call the AKC.

I'd like to remind folks that the dog is great -- so if you are a breeder that is tardy with paperwork, please realize that it is important to buyers -- it can change a happy customer who refers others into an unhappy one asking questions about fraud just like that.

BTW, there are plenty of places for me to post her name if she doesn't come through with those papers. Others should know; Caveat Emptor.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Hey DrTak, I agree with you 110%! 

It is sometime unfortunate that board rules don't allow us to name breeders but that same rule protects us against "personal attacks" as well. 

I would love to name Havoc's breeder here. But you know PM does work well and most anyone that asks, I tell - via PM. Word does get out. 

In fact word gets out so well, I had a pleasant email from Havoc's breeder in my inbox this AM. She is well aware of the statement I made in an earlier post on this thread. Someone from this board emails her anytime I say anything about her even without naming her. So yes, word does get out. 

Havoc is a wonderful dog, the breeder is not someone I would deal with again. 

Please stay with us and chat with us! We all love our GSD - even if we might like to hang an occassional breeder! And most breeders are pretty decent folk just like us.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Wonder how long it will take my snitch to email that last post to H's breeder??


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

30 seconds? I just don't see the issue with getting paperwork done. You have 8 wks before they leave to register the litter. Even when I've waited til 6 wks to do it, always had it in time. Owners fill out the paperwork, I mail all of them in within 2 wks, and done. This shouldn't be a tooth pulling situation!


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## OkieAmazon (Jun 14, 2005)

If you want to out (or praise) your breeder and name names, you can do it here.

http://www.gsconsumerreports.org


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

wow most breeders I know wouldn't be qualified to be "recommended" according to their standards. Most things I see are ok, but some most don't fit. 

Keep in mind, slander etc would still have a part and still could be sued. so could the owner. Still waiting to hear what state they're registered in. Posted about being non-profit which you can't do unless you actually ARE, so be careful!

I still would rather make use of ripoffreport.com


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## OkieAmazon (Jun 14, 2005)

I was shocked to see that less than 6%. Probably because of the 30 month hip guarantee, I think. Most breeders it's only 24 months. Long enough to pass OFA.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

did a look up on the website:

http://www.networksolutions.com/whois-search/gsconsumerreports.org



Not sure if sr or jr is the actual owner.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

I think the site could be a wonderful resource for people looking for a pup.

I hope it is sucessful.

What parts were you uncomforable with Angela?


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

For me, the pet quality. I sell with guarantees and without. Alot of pet people really don't want hip guarantees. It's available as an option but typically it's the SAR, sport, k9 people who do and not pet people. 

Personally, if I were owner of that board, I wouldn't want to be responsible for the possible liability of being sued. I know on the pedigree database, Oli isn't worried about it as his board/server isn't located in the US.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

Well, hopefully that is something the owner has researched. For a brand new board it looks well thought out.

I wonder if legally it is anything different from ripoffreports.com or any of the zillion product/service review websites out there or even any of the consumer testing/recomendation services available in print and on the net.

You have been breeding longer then I have of course but my limited experience indicates that most pet people balk at a warranty because of clauses demanding return on the initial pup.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

But most breeders don't require return of the pup, just spay/neuter requirements. 

If he wants the headaches, he can have them


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

I have seen a lot of contracts that require it. If the breeder enforces it or not can be a totally different situation.


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## OkieAmazon (Jun 14, 2005)

I think I read that return of original dog could NOT be required in order for guarantee to be operational. That is long used way of voiding a warranty. How many people are actually going to return the dog they now love? Maybe a teensy few, but not most.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Angela_W Alot of pet people really don't want hip guarantees. It's available as an option but typically it's the SAR, sport, k9 people who do and not pet people.


I agree with Betty101. If the guarantee states that the initial pup has to be returned than I would never use such guarantee and would prefer not to pay for it (but most likely would go to a different breeder though) but SAR, sport and K9 people may not have any problem returning the initial pup and get a more suitable work prospect replacement instead.

ETA If the breeder doesn't require a pup to be returned but offers money back or a free or heavy discounted pup down the road I don't see any reason why customer wouldn't like to have such guarantee.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

I know 1 guy in Tampa that has his setup that way, most people don't want to return their pets and shouldn't have to.


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## OkieAmazon (Jun 14, 2005)

As far a PSD/K9, most of them are not even purchased until all health clearances are done. Lackland AFB demands that they be 9-15 months old and they xray them tip to tail before they accept. This is a STRICTLY business proposition as far as supplying LE canines.


I can't say for sure, but most sport and SAR that I know are people that have their dog as much for "pets" as for the sport or work. They might get another more suitable animal for their work, but they aren't going to throw the problem dog ouit with the trash.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

He also has required spay/neuter 6 months for limited registration, $20 boarding fee if dog isn't picked up within a reasonable (doesn't state what is considered) time. Ears if they don't come up, return the dog only. Hips til 12 months, but you can keep the dog then but have to return the papers?? (doesn't state you have to return for hips, but does for ears?? so i assume it's hips too at 12 months.)


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

> Quote: I can't say for sure, but most sport and SAR that I know are people that have their dog as much for "pets" as for the sport or work. They might get another more suitable animal for their work, but they aren't going to throw the problem dog ouit with the trash.


I've seen that a lot also. Heck I have two fixed dogs here, one that I specifically bought with the hope of breeding.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Angela_W Hips til 12 months, but you can keep the dog then but have to return the papers??


 That's weird. Why does he need the papers if the dog is neutered anyway? Even if the dog has bad hips he can still get tracking and obedience titles...


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: OkieAmazonI think I read that return of original dog could NOT be required in order for guarantee to be operational. That is long used way of voiding a warranty. How many people are actually going to return the dog they now love? Maybe a teensy few, but not most.


But the other side of the coin there is how many people do not want to keep the "defective" original dog? There are actually quite a few, especially amongst show/sport/work folks. And while most pet owners would keep the original dog, many may not be poised to care for the original dog. Or, the customer may not have turned out to be that great a home after all, and the breeder may not feel comfortable with them keeping the dog, especially if it may now need expensive, time consuming management for health issues, let alone giving them another one.

IMO the best warranty covers both aspects. This is the way ours is set up. Full refund/replacement if they return the original dog.. so essentially it's an exchage policy. Partial refund/replacement if they wish to keep the original dog. 

It is also important to note that a warranty represents the *least* the breeder will do. Breeders can and often do go above and beyond what the warranty states, particularly for people they have a good relationship with. So just because the warranty may say that return of the original dog is required, that may not always be the case. People should also be aware that while the breeder always seems to be the one labled as the "bad guy" there are many customers out there who will try to cheat breeders. Probably at least as many of those as there are breeders who will cheat buyers, or try to dodge a warranty through a return clause.

In some situations, a return clause can help protect the dog as well. Not just from an owner who may not be able to care for it despite their best intentions, but also from some really stupid decisions. I knew a breeder who had an 8mo pup put down because an idiot vet misdiagnosed pano as dysplasia, and convinced the owner that if he was already having symptoms at this age he'd be crippled before long so putting him down was the right thing to do. The owner contacted the breeder after the fact, letting them know what happened to the dog and asking for their replacement. The breeder read them the riot act about jumping the gun on having the pup PTS, and when they finally obtained x-rays of the pup it was confirmed by several other vets that the pup had PANO, not dysplasia. Had that breeder had a return clause in the contract, the pup probably would have at least lived long enough for the owner to let the breeder know, and likely a correct diagnosis would have been made and the pup would still be alive.

Better than assuming the breeder is just trying to get out of the warranty because that is what is written is to contact the breeder, talk to the breeder to find out their reasoning behind what their warranty states, and talk to the breeder and previous customers to see what they have done in similar situations.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Thanks, Chris. I never thought about this issue from the breeders point of view. 

On the other hand, Yana's breeder couldn't understand why I bothered to pay for surgery on Yana's dislocated hip because it's such a waste of money, she would prefer for me to put the dog down. So if I returned Yana to her for any reason it would be a death sentence for Yana probably the very same day. Breeders are not created equal.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> In some situations, a return clause can help protect the dog as well. Not just from an owner who may not be able to care for it despite their best intentions, but also from some really stupid decisions. I knew a breeder who had an 8mo pup put down because an idiot vet misdiagnosed pano as dysplasia, and convinced the owner that if he was already having symptoms at this age he'd be crippled before long so putting him down was the right thing to do. The owner contacted the breeder after the fact, letting them know what happened to the dog and asking for their replacement. The breeder read them the riot act about jumping the gun on having the pup PTS, and when they finally obtained x-rays of the pup it was confirmed by several other vets that the pup had PANO, not dysplasia. Had that breeder had a return clause in the contract, the pup probably would have at least lived long enough for the owner to let the breeder know, and likely a correct diagnosis would have been made and the pup would still be alive.
> 
> Better than assuming the breeder is just trying to get out of the warranty because that is what is written is to contact the breeder, talk to the breeder to find out their reasoning behind what their warranty states, and talk to the breeder and previous customers to see what they have done in similar situations.


This happened to a friend of mine, and you may actually be referring to the same pup/situation! It caused me to change my contract that NO pup is to be put down (except for extreme accidental injuries!) without my knowledge and discussion. To do so voids the warrenty and all payments are forfeit. Before I even send out a contract, I discuss some of the clauses and the situations that caused me to include them. I would much rather replace a pup and have the original stay in a happy home in the event of HD, than try to rehome a dog with HD. The only thing I will not replace a puppy over is that the home just plain changed their mind and returned the pup.

Lee


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Lee, this was a breeder here in MI. So probably not the same one, in which case that's 2 dead dogs who may have been saved.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> 
> It is also important to note that a warranty represents the *least* the breeder will do. Breeders can and often do go above and beyond what the warranty states, particularly for people they have a good relationship with. So just because the warranty may say that return of the original dog is required, that may not always be the case. People should also be aware that while the breeder always seems to be the one labled as the "bad guy" there are many customers out there who will try to cheat breeders. Probably at least as many of those as there are breeders who will cheat buyers, or try to dodge a warranty through a return clause.


I'm not a breeder but I think this is important to keep in mind, especially online where everything is so "two dimensional". 

I know of some bad breeders out there but I'm happy to say that of the breeders I have actually met, they have all been very willing to share information and use their experience to help, even ones that have no vested interest (ie, breeders helping me with dogs that came from another breeder, things like that) and I am the type of person that sees my dogs as something more than just a product I buy from the store and don't even check the name of the salesperson. I value having a relationship with the breeder and knowing that we both have a commitment to the dog. The contracts and agreements are there to protect us both, and the dog. No one contract can cover every single scenario. That is why I like to see what happens when something does go wrong, how has the breeder handled it in the past. In most of these cases I feel like the breeders I've checked into have gone above and beyond.

As for AKC papers, I did not get my dogs registration until he was about 4 months. However this is because 1) I know the breeder and I didn't need papers in hand the day I purchased my dog and 2) the litter's sire is in Germany and not SV registered so first there was a process of the AKC recognizing him, then the breeder registered the litter, and then I registered my dog. Besides that initial delay, the process was smooth and straight forward. My puppy was in UKC shows before his registration went through but the UKC issues "TL" numbers and then you can switch to full reg later on.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: Chris WildLee, this was a breeder here in MI. So probably not the same one, in which case that's 2 dead dogs who may have been saved.


That is really scary then!!! Two poor dead puppies because people are idiots !!!!!!!









Lee


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

My _former_ vet also misdiagnosed Onyx' pano at 6 mos~told me she had severe HD and that she should have hip replacement. I didn't tell the breeder right then, as I wanted to find out all my options before letting her know. And to get a copy of the x-ray, written diagnosis from another vet. A couple of days after I found out, the breeder heard it  from her uncle who had bought a littermate(my dh works with him) She was very concerned and upset when she contacted me, and it turned out the stupid vet had misdiagnosed, along with positioned her terribly for her x-ray. I'd never have put Onyx down, but how many others has this vet maybe put a death sentence on. 
The breeders uncle's pup had pano also...


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## SouthernThistle (Nov 16, 2005)

So, DrTak.....any news on your pup and its papers?


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: KathyWI went through this with Havoc. He was almost 18 months before I got papers.
> 
> Try a certified letter, give her a deadline to send the papers and then follow through with legal action, file a complaint with the District attorney too. You can go to http://www.akc.org and cll customer service and file a complaint against her with the AKC.
> 
> There is a method that AKC will give you papers if you know the parents. Ask them how. That was my next step with Havoc's breeder and I found out she had never registered the litter or the import dam. What finally shook papers lose was the threat of law suit.


Wow this sounds very similiar to my experience with my Ragdoll Cat. I had contacted the Cat registry (forget the name) and in order to proceed with a complaint against the breeder I had to enclose a cheque for $50.00 U.S. Forget that! 

I had to threaten small claims court before I received my papers. My argurement was that I paid x $'s for a purebreed and it would have cost me x - y to adopt at the human society so I wanted compensation for the difference. Got the papers shortly after that email/registerd letter was sent.

They promited the kittens as registered Ragdolls and it ended up that the kitten's mother was not registered. Her comment was that no one asks for the papers as the cats are sold on a non-breeding contract. 

I just wanted the certificate.

To the OP. I wish you luck.


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## SouthernThistle (Nov 16, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: MaryW
> I had contacted the Cat registry (forget the name) and in order to proceed with a complaint against the breeder I had to enclose a cheque for $50.00 U.S. Forget that!


CFA?


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I think there are a few, CFA and TICA are two. 

Hey anyone know who my snitch is?????







I am anxiously awaiting another email from H's breeder just 'cause!!


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## SouthernThistle (Nov 16, 2005)

Don't know who your snitch is, but I'm loving the "Edit Reason: I can't type...."


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I have fat fingers and hit the wrong key!!! I do that a lot.

Yep, someone on this board sends Havoc's breeder pieces of any posts I make about him that could be construed as a negative implication on the breeder. That is the main reason my dogs do not have registered names on my signature line. Now if the person would just send the brags too!









Whoever it is, is very much a coward and a dishonest sneak. It used to make me angry, now I take opportunity to set him/her up for a good laugh.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

> Quote: Whoever it is, is very much a coward and a dishonest sneak. It used to make me angry, now I take opportunity to set him/her up for a good laugh.


I confess Kathy, it was I! I love the drama and watching people get all upset.....
























Just joking, please no one think it really is me.

You gotta laugh at the turds.........


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

> Originally Posted By: Betty101
> 
> 
> > Quote: Whoever it is, is very much a coward and a dishonest sneak. It used to make me angry, now I take opportunity to set him/her up for a good laugh.
> ...


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

Flush......


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## SeriousConfusion (Aug 2, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: KathyWI have fat fingers and hit the wrong key!!! I do that a lot.
> 
> Yep, someone on this board sends Havoc's breeder pieces of any posts I make about him that could be construed as a negative implication on the breeder. That is the main reason my dogs do not have registered names on my signature line. Now if the person would just send the brags too!
> 
> ...


It was me! We all know how much I love her and she's been such a charm to work with after the check gets cashed


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## SouthernThistle (Nov 16, 2005)

Any news, DrTak?


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