# Good idea? Demonstration speech at school with dog



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

My 17 year old daughter came home today and told me that she has to do a demonstrations speech at school (11th grade) and she wasn't sure what to do. After some brain storming, we had an idea, but I'm not sure it's a good one. 

It would be bringing Knuckles to school and her demonstrating a combination of dog training/how to act around a timid dog/how to approach a dog/how to act around someone training a dog (like how when the handler/owner gives a command and someone else gives him another or tries to give the dog another word for the same command, etc). Plus, of course, this would be a great training opportunity for Knuckles himself! One of her friends is in the class who could be a helper (how to approach) and this friend has met Knuckles already. 

I told Taryn that she has to explain to the teacher that he might bark/growl when we first get there, but that HE is in training and this is good for him. Taryn has excellent control over him (she goes to his obedience classes with me). 

Do you think this is a good idea?


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## Greydusk (Mar 26, 2010)

I don't think the school would allow it.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Kittilicious said:


> I told Taryn that she has to explain to the teacher that he might bark/*growl* when we first get there, but that HE is in training and this is good for him.
> *Do you think this is a good idea?*


No.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

No.


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## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

Any reasons why? 

The demonstration would be done outside, not in a classroom (all the animal demonstrations have to be outside) so he wouldn't be confined, so to speak.


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## brembo (Jun 30, 2009)

It's a good idea to help educate about dogs.

However it being at a school makes it a good idea with a huge problem attached to it. That problem being the litigious society we live in. We all know how hyper-sensitive the administrative body is within the school system, and taking a potentially dangerous implement into a school is begging for a lawsuit. The GSD being the said implement. Imagine a trial lawyers eyes lighting up when he's presented the case of a growly GSD that nipped a student....he's seeing big numbers and press.

A local student was recently suspended for a butter knife in the bed of his pickup. It was leftover from a yard sale, he wasn't even aware of the "knife". I would not want to risk something happening to my dog in that type of environment.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

I think its a good idea as long as distance is kept between Knuckles and the other students. Basically it would be you, your daughter, your daughters friend and Knuckles. No one else would be permitted to interact for safety sake. Clear boundaries and what not. Making it clear he may bark or growl is a given. It could be a very good opportunity to teach people. Course i also went to school and graduated class of 2005 before everyone was sue happy for a dog even looking at them the wrong way so.... pros and cons and situation control.


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## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

I would call the school and ask. maybe have the kids parents sign a waiver.


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## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

KZoppa said:


> I think its a good idea as long as distance is kept between Knuckles and the other students. Basically it would be you, your daughter, your daughters friend and Knuckles. No one else would be permitted to interact for safety sake. Clear boundaries and what not. Making it clear he may bark or growl is a given. It could be a very good opportunity to teach people. Course i also went to school and graduated class of 2005 before everyone was sue happy for a dog even looking at them the wrong way so.... pros and cons and situation control.


I should have added that he wouldn't be in physical contact with anyone but Taryn & her friend. It would be done outside (I would meet them outside, he wouldn't even go into the building)... he would basically have to listen to commands in front of a group - which I was wondering if THAT would be too much for him right now. 

And the speech can't be longer than 10 minutes...


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

For a completely sound and stable dog that is fully trained, yes. 

You say yours is in training and may bark/growl. Absolutely unacceptable. This is an ambassador mission, in a way, and your dog must be impeccable for reasons already mentioned. This is not a training exercise. The police would not deploy a K9 in training for a real apprehension, SAR would not deploy a dog in training for an urban disaster, and a guide dog in training does not get the same rights as a fully trained service dog. The idea is wonderful but the dog must be 100% trustworthy and trained.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Bad idea for all the same reasons as mentioned above. You just can't control everybody and everything, so there is a risk of something going wrong, someone acting inappropriately, someone thinking they are the dog whisperer reincarnation and approaching with all the wrong energy - Knuckles may feel trapped in this situation, surrounded with no way out, and there is the chance that he will strike out in fear. 

Also sounds like it would be too overwhelming for him, and can't handle this much stimulation. That would put you back in your efforts to work on raising his self-confidence. 

And finally, the LAST thing we need is to re-inforce the stereotype that GSDs are skittish/high-strung/unpredictable/aggressive. I would only ever bring a dog into a public demonstration that, like Diana mentioned, is a stellar and solid example of what the breed should be. 

It's not fair to put your daughter in a situation where she could be responsible for a bite, and not fair to put Knuckles in a situation that he is not ready for yet.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

No. This is not a good idea. I am not sure a school would let you on the property with a dog, but even if they were to give their okay, you are opening yourself up to intense liability issues. 

Kids do stupid things. Even high school age kids. Pair that with a fearful and/or reactive dog and you are just begging to have a huge mess on your hands.
Sheilah


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## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

Thank you for all of your comments. It really made me second guess the decision. 

But it left me sort of confused... having him do his commands/work with another person (the friend) in front of a small group of teenagers in a speech class, how is this different from going to his weekly class where he is being asked to do his commands/work with another person (trainer) in front of the other dog owners (plus the dogs, which would be out of this equation)? How could that not be considered another training exercise? 

It sort of leaves me a little sad because I thought this would be a perfect opportunity for him to help gain his confidence in front of people. How can I establish this if I can't bring him in "public"? 

Sorry, I know it sounds bitchy, but it leaves me a bit frustrated.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Kittilicious said:


> Thank you for all of your comments. It really made me second guess the decision.
> 
> But it left me sort of confused... having him do his commands/work with another person (the friend) in front of a small group of teenagers in a speech class, how is this different from going to his weekly class where he is being asked to do his commands/work with another person (trainer) in front of the other dog owners (plus the dogs, which would be out of this equation)? How could that not be considered another training exercise?
> 
> ...


just my two cents......having taken a GSD to schools to do talks with much younger children.....there is a BIG difference between taking your dog to training and taking it to a school.
you need to be sure *200%* that your dog is going to handle it and if you think he may bark/growl then that is not handling the situation.
You need to see the importance of him being a good ambassador for the breed and if he does "play up" you a not doing him or the GSD justice.
Schools are no place for building confidence or a training exercise. Dogs who enter schools for educational purposes should *ALREADY* be trained and *BOMB PROOF*......This is nothing personal against your dog but he isn't ready to do this......maybe one day he will be but in my opinion you will be setting him up to fail if you take him along.....sorry


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

an idea, tho not sure it would 'fly'...Could your daughter and her friend video this, say at YOUR home, and present the video as her report? 

The subject could be something that knuckles could participate in, but video the whole thing, show the video as her 'report'???


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## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

Kittilicious said:


> Thank you for all of your comments. It really made me second guess the decision.
> 
> But it left me sort of confused... having him do his commands/work with another person (the friend) in front of a small group of teenagers in a speech class, how is this different from going to his weekly class where he is being asked to do his commands/work with another person (trainer) in front of the other dog owners (plus the dogs, which would be out of this equation)? How could that not be considered another training exercise?
> 
> ...


I think you are being a bit dramatic here. Schools are not "public" areas. You don't see people off the street milling around schools with their pets.
Your dog obedience classes are different, everyone there assumes some risk from their or possibly other participants dogs. Kids at school do not assume that risk.

Why isn't your regular obedience doing enough to build your dogs confidence that you need this sort of thing. There are plenty of public places, parks, outdoor malls etc where you can get the same or better proofing of your dog.

I for one, as a parent of school going kids, would be very unhappy to hear that the school was allowing my kids to be training props for someones dog, during school hours and without my explicit permission.

Haven't you all seen the video of the police dog ripping the news reporter a new face and that was a fully trained/certified dog! I know you said there would be no contact but you cannot guarantee that 100%.


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## TaraM1285 (Sep 24, 2009)

I agree with all of the above posters that it is not a good idea.

It is also not a good idea from the perspective of your daughter's assignment, which is to give a demonstration speech. I assume this is for a grade, and that should be taken into consideration. Using any animal, even a fully trained animal is a risk in a public speaking event. You said your dog is still in training, as such, anything could happen that would jeopardize your daughter's ability to complete her speech. It's so nerve-wracking to give speeches, especially in front of classmates, that I can't imagine that it would be easy to recover if Knuckles does something completely unexpected or is uncooperative. 

I think doing short video clips that she could play in the classroom would be a much better idea. It would enable her to practice and *know* exactly what to expect from her demo dog (on film).


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## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

pfitzpa1 said:


> I think you are being a bit dramatic here. Schools are not "public" areas.


It was more in reference of not wanting to have him do something in a public eye because he isn't a good example of the breed. Like I said, I was frustrated. He's doing SO WELL with everything and even thought he's still timid, he amazes me every day, but this reminded me that he's not anywhere close to being what he should be (and never will, probably). He does still growl at some men, but warms up rather quickly. 



> Why isn't your regular obedience doing enough to build your dogs confidence that you need this sort of thing. There are plenty of public places, parks, outdoor malls etc where you can get the same or better proofing of your dog.


I don't NEED this, it was just something that came up this afternoon, thats all. 
And where I live, no there isn't any of those places. School is actually where I have used a lot, if not most, of his socialization & training already. In the afternoon we walk the few blocks towards school to meet with my daughters and Knuckles has to walk by all of the elementary & jr/high school kids walking, biking & driving by. He's not afraid of bicycles anymore!  We are still working on wagons & strollers. 

And no, she can't put it on video either. We are trying to figure out something else. Now I guess she wants to demonstrate how to make an ice cream cake LOL


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I was a 70's kid. One of my classmates demonstrated how to smoke a hookah. With real tobacco. hahaha. That was inside a classroom too.


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## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

I demonstrated on how to dress like a biker LOL Dressed my friends' boyfriend up in a Harley tshirt & leathers.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Kittilicious said:


> But it left me sort of confused... having him do his commands/work with another person (the friend) in front of a small group of teenagers in a speech class, *how is this different from going to his weekly class where he is being asked to do his commands/work with another person (trainer) in front of the other dog owners (plus the dogs, which would be out of this equation)? How could that not be considered another training exercise? *
> 
> It sort of leaves me a little sad because I thought this would be a perfect opportunity *for him to help gain his confidence in front of people. How can I establish this if I can't bring him in "public"? *
> 
> Sorry, I know it sounds bitchy, but it leaves me a bit frustrated.


In a dog obedience class, or any that I have been to, there is a hold harmless clause for you and your dog should another dog have a bad day. So there is something in place, liability wise, if something happens. 

In a school, they are acting in place of parents, and so that means they have a high standard of liability. Which means they try to minimize danger to students. But those students have not signed a hold harmless, the school has not, nor have the parents, like in the obedience class. 

So that is a fundamental and very big difference. 

I have taken my therapy dogs, with $1 million dollars in liability insurance, to public places with children as part of an event or training session somewhat like you describe. I would not take my own non-therapy dogs to the same. 

For the second part, for a timid dog, putting on a show is probably not the most ideal way to overcome timidity. Like someone who is not a comfortable public speaker being asked to do a one person show at Carnegie Hall. 

For a timid dog, to build confidence, baby steps, always baby steps. Build up to the big things. I know, because I tried to rush my Bella way back, because her OBEDIENCE was so good, she was SO danged compliant, I was looking at that and not her actual state of mind in the situation, which was not at all happy. 

The yahoo group here: shy-k9s : shy-k9s is an excellent resource! Please join and read!

How long is the demonstration supposed to be? She could do a safe dog greeting one with a stuffed toy dog. Or make a tie dyed shirt like I did.  eace:


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

no, it's not close to a good idea.


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## Gracie's My Girl (May 27, 2011)

I wouldn't do it. Using a dog who is not fully trained to demonstrate what a well behaved dog is like sounds like a risky idea. The possibility that he may growl would undermine what your daughter would be trying to present. 

There is a massive difference between obeying in class and obeying during a presentation. They are two completely environments. It takes a lot of work to go into a completely new situation with a young dog and have 100% reliable obedience.

I am sure that your daughter will do very well with whatever she decides to do. Best of luck to her!


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## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

> Using a dog who is not fully trained to demonstrate what a well behaved dog is like sounds like a risky idea.


Thats not what she would have been doing. She was going to demonstrate dog training.. in the setting she was in... and how to to correct things, etc. Knuckles being a distracted, shy puppy was part of the speech. Then also using her friend to show how to approach a dog to basically fill up the 10 minutes. 

I just want to make sure that everyone has pictured what this would be... I sort of get the feeling some thing we will be in front of the entire school. We would be outside, probably out in the baseball field or something, in front of ... I think she said there are 15 people (16, 17 & 18 year olds) in her speech class... plus the teacher. I'm assuming the baseball field because the other student doing a demonstration with his dog was told it would be out there. 



> How long is the demonstration supposed to be? She could do a safe dog greeting one with a stuffed toy dog.


It can't be more than 10 minutes. You have to use actual objects.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Kittilicious said:


> I just want to make sure that everyone has pictured what this would be... I sort of get the feeling some thing we will be in front of the entire school. We would be outside, probably out in the baseball field or something, in front of ... I think she said there are 15 people (16, 17 & 18 year olds) in her speech class... plus the teacher. I'm assuming the baseball field because the other student doing a demonstration with his dog was told it would be out there.


I had the correct idea to begin with. It doesn't matter if this demonstration was inside or outside, in front of the whole school or only two students. I would still think it is a bad idea.
Sheilah


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## Alexandria610 (Dec 2, 2010)

While I love the idea, and think it would get kids to buck up and pay attention (after all, animals are out of the norm for schools, and people usually loooove animals), I'm not so sure (like most have already stated) that it would be right at this time. 

My biggest concern isn't necessarily for the children or the school itself (especially since you mentioned that the environment will be fairly/moderately controlled, and will have few people involved) but mostly for Knuckles. From what I have read about him, he is starting to really do great and shine. I think something like this could either be a great step towards having extreme confidence, or it could be a horrible step backwards - it just really depends. I'm not sure I would want to take that chance if he were my dog that there could be a step backwards in his training.

It is great to hear that you have been taking him back and forth around the other schools and students when you go to pick up your daughter from school - I wish my dogs had that kind of stimulation and exposure. However, I don't know if a newer environment with smells, sights, and sounds he may not have been previously exposed to would be the best for him, especially if you are worried about possible barking or growling. 

And even if you do tell people about his growling, some may still be fearful of it (some people are indeed afraid of dogs - I find it hard to believe since I love them so much, but I have to remind myself that!) and who knows if you get one teen that thinks he/she is going to be someone and tell their parent that a GSD growled at them in class. 

It is such an unpredictable environment in that sense. 

I cannot say we haven't had our fair share of random animals brought in by parents for show and tell, classroom presentations by students, and the like (horses, steers, a pig, a sheep, various dogs and cats, a baby gator, goats, and small rodent animals) but we also mostly had these animals presented in our veterinary course in high school, so there was already a bit of understanding that we could get hurt. We never signed papers, but by taking that class you figured the liability would be present. I mean, we raised the steer and lamb for our FFA, and sheared the little lamb in the classroom before taking him to the livestock show!

But regardless, as great as the idea seems, I think it's best that you pass this one by. I know it will be a disappointment to your daughter as well as yourself, but I think that if something goes wrong or just slightly off it may be an even bigger disappointment. Perhaps once Knuckles is matured more and has more training under his belt, you can get him certified to go talk to classrooms. That requires insurance, of course, but it keeps you covered in case something WERE to happen, and still gets the message out to kids and teens about proper approaching of dogs and the like.

Either way, I wish you and your daughter best of luck!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

> Originally Posted by *Kittilicious*
> _I just want to make sure that everyone has pictured what this would be... I sort of get the feeling some thing we will be in front of the entire school. We would be outside, probably out in the baseball field or something, in front of ... I think she said there are 15 people (16, 17 & 18 year olds) in her speech class... plus the teacher. I'm assuming the baseball field because the other student doing a demonstration with his dog was told it would be out there. _





sit said:


> I had the correct idea to begin with. It doesn't matter if this demonstration was inside or outside, in front of the whole school or only two students. I would still think it is a bad idea.
> Sheilah


Absolutely.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

May sound corny but can the demonstration be presented as a video recording to the class?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

My biggest concern is that you know your dog has the tendency to growl. It just doesn't look good when a dog is growling and possibly barking at a completely normal situation. We all like our dogs to be great examples of the breed when we're out in public, and having you take a dog that might growl at a student doesn't really show that. I know you've already said that you're thinking about doing something else, and I'm not trying to beat a dead horse but just see it from a different point of view.

My dog is really excitable, he would do great in a situation like that but he might jump up on some students and want to sniff/say hello to many of them. But he would never growl or bark at any of them. I wouldn't take him to such a thing because we wouldn't look great trying to do obedience since he would be so distracted. But a distracted/happy dog doesn't look as bad to the general public as one that might be shy/fearful or even growl at someone for no reason except that they are there.

If you really want to work on his obedience/training with people there I'm sure you can find a park or something, but start where he isn't "on stage." Everyone will be looking at him, and he will know it, its just not a good situation for a young dog.


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## Bismarck (Oct 10, 2009)

lol.... no.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Hmm, if Knuckles wasn't uncomfortable around new people I'd probably say yes. When I was in 8th grade I brought my Beagle in for a dog training demonstration speech. Everyone's parent's signed slips and nobody was allowed to actually pet her or anything. But then again, it's a Beagle and she was the happiest dog on the planet..


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

With a dog that is 110% sound and comfortable with people, these sort of demos can be beneficial.

With a dog who is *not* comfortable around people, it is a very BAD idea. It is completely unfair to subject the dog to that stress, gives a bad impression of the breed if he is growling and showing fearful behavior, and it can be a disaster in the making.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Even with a sound dog - you have to be 100% in control at all times. People are unpredictable 

I took a SAR dog to a demo and she was MOBBED by kids grabbing all over her ears, tail, body, with parents nowhere in sight to control their kids...and me having to back the kids off without looking like a crazy angry lady.

Can I add this was MOMENTS after the police bitedog demo where the dog had - ahem - a little issue with letting go? 

She was bombproof with kids and people until the day she died. She was an absolute social butterfly and LOVED everyone. But the look in her eyes that day.......she was not happy...so even though nothing bad happened, I felt bad for her.


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