# Will an untrained dog protect its owner?



## marinehoney

I saw this video and disagree. To me, those trained dogs attacked because they saw a padded arm or were given their trigger word. And the untrained dogs cowering seems right for some dogs too...but maybe they knew the "attacker"? What does everyone else think? 
I personally think that an untrained dog can protect its owner.


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## sagelfn

I hate this video on so many levels. 

This has been discussed quite a few times. Simple answer is it really depends on the dog. I do not believe your average pet would.


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## marinehoney

Why do you hate this video? I am not trying to cause drama or fights..I am genuinely interested in peoples thoughts and opinions about it.


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## marinehoney

OOPS I just found a whole other thread just like this one! sorry! I am going to read through it.


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## LindaDwyer

*untrained attack dog*

I think all dogs are naturally protective of their "pack" if they sense fear in their humans they will try to protect. German shepherds being natural guard and protection dogs will no doubt come through if you need them to

my girl isn't a year old yet but if I'm walking her and someone happens to be walking behind us she will jump on me and keep looking back as if to say "look mama, someone is behind us, be careful they might try to sneak up on us". I never worry about walking her any time day or night because there is no doubt in my mind that she would bite a stranger.


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## marinehoney

rogue is really nonconfrontational but thor is very reactive im not sure rogue would protect but thor?? yes!


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## codmaster

LindaDwyer said:


> I think all dogs are naturally protective of their "pack" if they sense fear in their humans they will try to protect. German shepherds being natural guard and protection dogs will no doubt come through if you need them to
> 
> my girl isn't a year old yet but if I'm walking her and someone happens to be walking behind us she will jump on me and keep looking back as if to say "look mama, someone is behind us, be careful they might try to sneak up on us". I never worry about walking her any time day or night because there is no doubt in my mind that she would bite a stranger.


Sounds more to me like she would run behind you if she got scared. Plus your girl is still a baby and wouldn't be expected to protect you yet.

A more protective dog would not come back to you and jump on you; but instead would be expected to be out at the end of the leash *Between* you and whatever is there!


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## marinehoney

That sounds like Thor. He lunges out and pulls me. but Rogue kind of cowers beside me when other dogs are barking at her or if someone walks by us, her ears go all the way back and she starts running the other way.


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## Courtney

I also hate this video. The little girl is not in danger, the props, the "bad guy" is all just weird. Obviously the owner of the video is selling his/her training service....poor advertisement IMO and shows their lack of know how.


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## HundenHaus

I adopted a 2 yr old from the rescue. he was a large untrained male. his owner gave me up for that reason. i did trained him basic commands such as sit, stay, and go get it. 

i walked w/my gs at 900 pm and came across with a drunk man. my gs stopped and stared at the drunk man. in turn, the drunk man stopped and cross the street. 

in conclusion, untrained dogs will protect you.


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## Courtney

I agree and think it depends on the individual dog. GSD are excellent at knowing nutural situation no threat to threat/danger. Let's face it the majority of the people we encounter every day mean us no harm and most dogs will never be tested in this manner.

Some of our GSD would impress and some disappoint in a real life danger situation.


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## llombardo

HundenHaus said:


> I adopted a 2 yr old from the rescue. he was a large untrained male. his owner gave me up for that reason. i did trained him basic commands such as sit, stay, and go get it.
> 
> i walked w/my gs at 900 pm and came across with a drunk man. my gs stopped and stared at the drunk man. in turn, the drunk man stopped and cross the street.
> 
> in conclusion, untrained dogs will protect you.


This is a valid point. My dog is much younger, but she is tall. I took her outside and it was pretty dark...I hear someone yelling, is it alright for me to pass? I'm looking around and I ask him if he's talking to me....he says yes "is it alright to pass with that dog"? I'm thinking yeah, she's only a puppy, but he didn't know that


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## LindaDwyer

codmaster said:


> Sounds more to me like she would run behind you if she got scared. Plus your girl is still a baby and wouldn't be expected to protect you yet.
> 
> A more protective dog would not come back to you and jump on you; but instead would be expected to be out at the end of the leash *Between* you and whatever is there!


what she does is tell me someone is there then she gets down and growls and stands between us and if they keep coming she will lunge at them and she is even worse with people walking towards us. And in the house, forget it, no one can come in until I tell her its ok but even then she is watchful

Her grandfather is a border patrol dog, its bred in her lines to be protective and I have no doubt she would come through if I needed her to


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## Castlemaid

Linda, 

Your pup will probably grow up to be an awesome and strong girl, but right now she is a baby and is displaying classic fear aggression signs. (Scare them off before they even THINK of doing anything bad, then I'm safe!). The jumping on you is a classic behaviour from an insecure pup (and she is a pup! Normal for her to react this way if she is unsure). 

Here is a thread that goes into the differences of fear aggression and real protectiveness. 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/aggression-good-bad-ugly/156050-protective-fearful.html

And another recent example of what protectiveness looks like:


> jennyp said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just yesterday my sister was in the yard putting trash next to the driveway for Bulk Pick Up. She had her Rottweiler with her and was returning to the house when a man drove up to her driveway to rummage through her trash. When the guy got out of his car Layda (the dog) walked halfway down the driveway, stopped and just stared at him. That was enough to send the guy running back to his car!
> 
> 
> 
> Castlemaid said:
> 
> 
> 
> And that is a good example of true protectiveness! A quiet confidence, a sense of inner invincibility. Watching quietly, ready to spring in action if required. No wasting mental and physical energy by going bonkers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Your pup should be calm and feel safe that you, the adult, the pack leader will do any protecting, biting, or barking needed, then she can grow up confident and calm. When mature, she will feel mentally strong enough to feel like if called upon, she can protect.
> 
> For many of us that do train dogs in protection, the kind of barking at strangers and jumping on you would not be seen as a positive thing, and the lack of confidence would be a concern as to whether the dog will grow up to be protective.
> 
> I'm not picking on you Linda, the interpretation of your dog's behaviour as protectiveness is VERY common, but usually comes from people who have never done any formal protective training with their dog, always just accepted that any barking and any growling at strangers is protectiveness. Once people get into actual protection training with a dog, then the difference in behaviour between fearful behaviour and actual, mature, calm and confident protection really stands out.
Click to expand...


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## pyratemom

Raina is not trained in protection at all except that she loves me. We were walking around 9 pm on the local bicycle path along the road. A homeless appearing man was approaching dragging a rolling suitcase so I stepped off the path and put Raina in a sit for practice with distractions. The man stopped and spoke to me for a short minute and then took a step off the path in our direction. Raina maintained her sit but did growl real low but loud enough to be heard. Then the guy took another step in our direction. Raina stood next to me and growled louder never leaving my side. When the guy was foolish enough to start to take another step towards us Raina totally went off barking and growling and stepping between us. I told the man to step back and not get any closer, which of course he backed off real quick (who wouldn't with all those teeth flashing). As soon as he stepped back she calmed down backed up to my side and kept watching him. The guy was slightly out there as he said "It's all right I used to be an Alaskan Husky." I just shook my head and moved on. Every day is a learning adventure.


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## Twyla

Help decide this behavior....

I take Woolf to parks during the day several times a week for play, exercise and training. Normally they are empty so we avoid having to deal with his DA/ha.

A couple weeks ago we were at one, empty, doing the usual. A car pulls in and parks. Filled with what I'll call grungy looking guys. I learned long ago I can't react, tense up etc, so we just started working our way back to the truck with some play and training. Woolf noticed the car and instead of his normal reaction, which would be some hackling, maybe a growl and bark, he went very quiet, alert and focused. Stood taller, head up and moved into heel position and stayed there until we got to the truck. This is something that has not been trained for. The only training he has had is obedience and behavioral.

I spoke with the behaviorist, and frankly she was glad to hear of his behavior, called it a bit of a breakthrough.


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## marinehoney

Rogue is DEF our protector then. Funny how I thought the exact opposite of the truth.


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## Jax08

Maybe...maybe not.

My collie would protect me against anyone, including my kids and DH. Our oldest Boxer would take anyone out for her boy (DS). Sierra...No...she would run. Jax...maybe...I've seen her react but I think she's "protecting" herself and not me.


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## gsdraven

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...g-video-will-my-untrained-dog-protect-me.html

Previous thread on this video for anyone who is interested.


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## LindaDwyer

*protective dogs*

I go with the idea that any dog can bite and I always assume they will, then there are no suprises when one does. Just the sight of a large dog with someone is enough to usually scare off any attacker because they have no idea what the dog will do.

How many times have you ever heard of anyone being attacked when there is a dog with them. Even having a small dog with you is better than having no dog at all.

So whether its fear for themselves or for their person makes no difference. The attacker doesn't know the difference and would have to be brain dead to find out


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## Courtney

LindaDwyer said:


> I go with the idea that any dog can bite and I always assume they will, then there are no suprises when one does. Just the sight of a large dog with someone is enough to usually scare off any attacker because they have no idea what the dog will do.
> 
> How many times have you ever heard of anyone being attacked when there is a dog with them. Even having a small dog with you is better than having no dog at all.
> 
> So whether its fear for themselves or for their person makes no difference. The attacker doesn't know the difference and would have to be brain dead to find out


Yes! I like that my boy is a potenital deterrent and makes the bad guy think twice just by appearance alone. Home burgleries, in most cases houses are passed when the burgler suspects a dog is in the home. My boy is good at alert barking at home, good boy, my husband or I will take over from there.


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## Dragonwyke

LindaDwyer said:


> I go with the idea that any dog can bite and I always assume they will, then there are no suprises when one does. Just the sight of a large dog with someone is enough to usually scare off any attacker because they have no idea what the dog will do.
> 
> How many times have you ever heard of anyone being attacked when there is a dog with them. Even having a small dog with you is better than having no dog at all.
> 
> So whether its fear for themselves or for their person makes no difference. The attacker doesn't know the difference and would have to be brain dead to find out


i agree w/this one also. it doesn't matter to me what the reason is behind the behavior. self preservation or protection, it all works out the same way. as long as my big guys are with me no one bothers me, they cross the street and i like that. my guys get their walk, and i walk safe. it's a win win situation. 

if someone wants to push it, then they're the losers in the end. my guys are leashed and tagged and command responsive. i walk w/all 3 of them at once. they've gotta be stupid to try anything. 

dw~


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## Isha.Bop

reminds me of the time when my husband left me alone in the car and there was this homeless or just poor man going around asking people for money. he never came close to me because Sam was in the back of the truck


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## DianaM

Sometimes you'll run into a news article about the Jack Russell or Dachshund that, despite being kicked repeatedly, continue to bite and bark at an intruder to chase them off. That is fight. Many dogs can be driven off with a raised voice. These dogs that will come back at you despite being physically hurt and regardless of size have fight. They have confidence, they have presence, they have every opportunity to run and hide in another room but they know they own the place and won't stop until they are dead. They are not afraid to fight and may even enjoy a good fight. This is not training, this is genetics. Many terriers have excellent fight drive; they are bred to go down into very tight holes deep underground with no visibility to face off a terrified and livid animal with lots of teeth and claws. That cannot be trained.

Training teaches the dog control, perhaps more fighting skills, when to turn on and when to turn off, to release on command, etc. You cannot train a dog to be protective unless it already has the genes present. Those who do are training disasters and lawsuits waiting to happen because those dogs are protecting not because they want to and KNOW they can but because they are in complete fear of their lives and are unable to run.

There are proper ways to test drives in a dog and improper ways. Good schutzhund decoys are one resource to go to for testing a dog.


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## Lilie

DianaM said:


> Sometimes you'll run into a news article about the Jack Russell or Dachshund that, despite being kicked repeatedly, continue to bite and bark at an intruder to chase them off. That is fight. Many dogs can be driven off with a raised voice. These dogs that will come back at you despite being physically hurt and regardless of size have fight. They have confidence, they have presence, they have every opportunity to run and hide in another room but they know they own the place and won't stop until they are dead. They are not afraid to fight and may even enjoy a good fight. This is not training, this is genetics. Many terriers have excellent fight drive; they are bred to go down into very tight holes deep underground with no visibility to face off a terrified and livid animal with lots of teeth and claws. That cannot be trained.
> 
> Training teaches the dog control, perhaps more fighting skills, when to turn on and when to turn off, to release on command, etc. You cannot train a dog to be protective unless it already has the genes present. Those who do are training disasters and lawsuits waiting to happen because those dogs are protecting not because they want to and KNOW they can but because they are in complete fear of their lives and are unable to run.
> 
> There are proper ways to test drives in a dog and improper ways. Good schutzhund decoys are one resource to go to for testing a dog.


Yes! Yes! ...and more Yes!


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## Pepper311

Trust your dog. If you have a good bound with your dog if you need them they will be there for you. 

There was a weird man walking slowly by our house months ago. I felt creeped out. My pit bull how normally could careless if anyone walked by was on full alert and did a low growl. It made me feel better knowing that my dog knew how I felt. 

Trust your dog they knew more then we give them credit for.


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## Castlemaid

Yes yes yes yes with the deterrent factor!!!! No issues with that at all! 

Just want people to be aware of the emotions behind their dog's behaviour, and NOT feed a young dog's fear by yourself being afraid, and praising fearful response. 

If pup is reacting to someone walking behind you in a fearful manner, or to a neutral stranger, exude confidence, do not encourage or praise fear barking or anxiety jumping. If that person happens to be someone to avoid, they will see you and your dog's absolute confidence and lack of fear, and will move on.


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## Courtney

I'm the only girl and have 3 brothers. I can still hear my dad saying "*walk like you mean it*!". Head up, be aware of your surroundings, no fiddling in your purse in the parking lot be prepared before you walk out, etc. That has always stuck with me add a GSD along with that & we are fierce out and about! LOL


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## Stella's Mom

Courtney said:


> I'm the only girl and have 3 brothers. I can still hear my dad saying "*walk like you mean it*!". Head up, be aware of your surroundings, no fiddling in your purse in the parking lot be prepared before you walk out, etc. That has always stuck with me add a GSD along with that & we are fierce out and about! LOL



Good advice from your dad. I always walk with a purpose. I do think it makes a big difference...and having a big GSD beside me makes feel even more secure


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## Twyla

Pepper311 said:


> Trust your dog. If you have a good bound with your dog if you need them they will be there for you.
> 
> There was a weird man walking slowly by our house months ago. I felt creeped out. My pit bull how normally could careless if anyone walked by was on full alert and did a low growl. It made me feel better knowing that my dog knew how I felt.
> 
> Trust your dog they knew more then we give them credit for.


Not trying to debate or question it 

But that brings up another point. Is the dog reacting to protect or to how your emotions transferred to him? The result may be the same, no one wants to take on a GSD and yes you are right, our dogs know more then we sometimes give them credit for.

I know with Woolf, I have to maintain control of my emotions, regardless if I am holding the leash or not, because it does affect him. True, he is a dog with issues, but I can't see that being any different with a balanced dog. GSDs I have had before, now at the bridge, were the same way and they were balanced.

That is why I question his behavior I described in an earlier post in this thread. Even knowing I have to keep control of emotions, did I somehow still transfer that to him? Did somehow your dog read you being creeped out and acted on that?

OK looks like several beat me to it  going for speed typing lessons lol


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## Chicagocanine

I don't expect my dogs to protect me, it's my job to protect them. However they do provide a great deterrent, many people don't want to mess with someone who has a big dog by their side.

Bianca will keep and eye on anyone who start walking behind us when we're on a walk alone, but she does not act fearful or nervous, she just turns her head every now and then to keep an eye on them. That's fine with me because I like to know when someone is coming up on me and she lets me know how close they are. 




Stella's Mom said:


> Good advice from your dad. I always walk with a purpose. I do think it makes a big difference...


Yeah unless you are in a store. 
I often get called over when I'm in stores by some customer who assumes I work there and tries to ask me where something is or whatever.
It took me a while to figure out why this was happening, but finally I realized it's because I walk quickly and purposefully, act like I know where I'm going and don't wander around like a lot of people shopping tend to do. So people who see this assume this means I work there!


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## shell nyc

Courtney said:


> I'm the only girl and have 3 brothers. I can still hear my dad saying "*walk like you mean it*!". Head up, be aware of your surroundings, no fiddling in your purse in the parking lot be prepared before you walk out, etc. That has always stuck with me add a GSD along with that & we are fierce out and about! LOL


Yes, great advice.

I got through my first few years in NYC as a raised-in-the-South young 20something in Harlem with a bicolor GSD by my side while “walking like I mean it”. People would cross the street rather than pass us on the sidewalk. Same dog could walk through midtown crowds, or shop next to me in a tightly packed wine store without touching a thing. Had great nerves, great GSD intuition, and presence enough to keep trouble away. Man I miss her... 

On topic, Kelsey was never protection trained, I saw evidence on multiple occasions that she would have reacted appropriately to a threat. Run in straight for a sleeve? No, but enough of a reaction to keep most people away...


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## Wolfgeist

I despise this video.. there are so many factors in protection. The one that sticks out most? Those 'untrained' dogs have no emotional bond to the person they are suppose to defend... why would they risk their life for a non-pack member? It goes against survival instinct. We also don't know the genetics of those untrained dogs... they are likely some pets they randomly picked to use. They could very well be weak nerved, poor representations of the breed.

So much is wrong about this video.


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## debbiebrown

i agree you need to figure out wether your dog is responding because of fear, or the dog is stable/solid and can distiquish between a threat and non threat.

i also agree, that no dog should take charge and decide wether to attack something, its our job to train them that we will handle the situation. they may respond unsure or just eyeing the threat, but that is when we take charge and do the appropriate thing to let the dog know its not up to him to react.


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## pyratemom

Stella's Mom said:


> Good advice from your dad. I always walk with a purpose. I do think it makes a big difference...and having a big GSD beside me makes feel even more secure


LOL! I had to laugh at this one. I always walk later in the evening between 8 and 9:30 because its cooler out. I have had people cross the street to walk on the other side when they see me with Raina. I never worry. People have asked me if I don't think maybe I should be afraid to walk late in the evening. I tell them, not as long as Raina or Pyrate is with me (not to mention my handy carry permit). I would protect my dogs.


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## chancey

i didn't like this video... the man came out more menacing wearing a sleeve w/ the trained dogs, but just walked out rather normally and no sleeve w/ untrained dogs... had he walked like that for the trained dogs-like a normal person w/o evil intent- would the trained dogs still have attacked??

am i correct in assuming that they would NOT have attacked if well trained?
also, the video was just obviously staged to make trained dogs like good.

re protection= i'm new to owning a gsd. but my adopted rotty (rip mason) was trained in protection and even though i didn't continue it, as he was our companion only, he was awesome @exuding confidence. very silent though. very aware and on occasion, standing between ppl & i at times, just watchful, alert, but silent. he never attacked anyone- never had a reason to. 

with chance my gsd, 3yo next month. i do not know for sure if he would protect, i think his size alone/breed is a deterrant. 
*but he 'seems' to be protective? 
when out walking he typically is happy excited yet calm... and also very aware of ppl coming towards us whether they have dog or not. i have noted he instinctively will walk rt next to my side (good heel w/o being told) when a person is approaching and he does stare at them. he doesn't growl. i have just assumed this is a trait of the breed... am i correct? and can i assume from this that he would protect me? or is that going to far to assume, at this point?

chance needs cont'd proper obedience training, i am not interested in protection training. 

good thread


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## PaddyD

Whether your dog will be protective depends on the dog and the situation. I agree with those who say that just the presence of the dog can be a deterrent. As for my dog, I have no idea whether she would protect me; I tend to think she would not. She would probably just stand by and bark.


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## Hams

Just today, me and my little sis were kind of experiencing this. We wanted to fake a fight and see what would my 8 months old GSD do! She kept on slapping and yelling at me, my dog jumped on her then stood infront of me and kept barking as a warning to not get close to me. And hes still 8 months


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## GSDluver4lyfe

Wild Wolf said:


> I despise this video.. there are so many factors in protection. The one that sticks out most? Those 'untrained' dogs have no emotional bond to the person they are suppose to defend... why would they risk their life for a non-pack member? It goes against survival instinct. We also don't know the genetics of those untrained dogs... they are likely some pets they randomly picked to use. They could very well be weak nerved, poor representations of the breed.
> 
> So much is wrong about this video.


That stood out to me as well. As well as the presentation of a "threat" between the "trained" and "untrained" dogs. The way he approached the trained dogs was definately to elicit a response, as they are accustomed to that appraoch but didn't put any amount of pressure on them, no telling how long they would stay on the sleeve (if at all) if he responded in a truly threatening manner, a way a person on the street would react (kicking, hitting, thrashing, screaming etc).

So its begs the question. What is a true ppd? What do you consider protection? A detterent, a dog that barks, one that bites, or one that can and will truly fight to the death despite injury, pain ect?!


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## selzer

I think it depends on the dog. I also agree that the results may be very different if the untrained dog lived with the little girl. And they may be the same. If the females were owned by the guy walking over and doing the attacking, like if this was a family affair, then, yeah, no way is the dog going to attack him unless it is trained to attack when it sees the sleeve. 

Like, if I horse play with my little nieces. My dogs are not going to rise up and attack me for acting like I am attacking them. They may cower because they may be uncertain what to do. But they are very unlikely to attack the person that they live with to protect the kids they don't live with. 

Now I had a pair of 8 month old bitches out with me, when we were accosted by a drunk man. At first he was only talking to me, and Jenna did not like him and went to the end of her leash away from him. He thought this was hillarious, and laughed and said, she was afraid of him. Then he lunged at me. 

Both bitch pups, rushed right at him, barking into his face, front feet off the ground and straining on their leashes. Backed him right up, and he did not say another word, turned and went back to the bar. 

I really did not know what to do. I wasn't planning on training in any sort of protection, I did not want to praise the behavior and encourage it, and I certainly didn't want to correct it. So I turned and said, C'mon girls, and we just walked away. 

Babs and Jenna have since been to many classes and many shows, they have CGCs and titles (nothing in the area of protection), but they have had to endure many face to face contact between me and strangers, and they have never reacted to any other stranger that way. 

My feeling is they identified a real threat and responded to it. Neither tried to attack the guy when his attention was on them, but when he lunged at me, they both rushed up. Neither bit him. I don't know if either would have. It was an excellent show and turned the man around in a hurry.


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## belladonnalily

I personally wouldn't want a dog that would aggressively defend WITHOUT real protection training, confidence, and the ability to take direction from me. Sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen. Those that will "probably bite and defend" although untrained, are more likely than not fear biters, IMHO. And those dogs will likely make a bad decision (because they haven't been trained otherwise) & bite the wrong person. That's just the way I see it. 
OTOH, if you get lucky and bites the right person when you need it, none of what I just said matters 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Tratkins

selzer said:


> Now I had a pair of 8 month old bitches out with me, when we were accosted by a drunk man. At first he was only talking to me, and Jenna did not like him and went to the end of her leash away from him. He thought this was hillarious, and laughed and said, she was afraid of him. Then he lunged at me.
> 
> Both bitch pups, rushed right at him, barking into his face, front feet off the ground and straining on their leashes. Backed him right up, and he did not say another word, turned and went back to the bar.
> 
> I really did not know what to do. I wasn't planning on training in any sort of protection, I did not want to praise the behavior and encourage it, and I certainly didn't want to correct it. So I turned and said, C'mon girls, and we just walked away.
> 
> Babs and Jenna have since been to many classes and many shows, they have CGCs and titles (nothing in the area of protection), but they have had to endure many face to face contact between me and strangers, and they have never reacted to any other stranger that way.
> 
> My feeling is they identified a real threat and responded to it. Neither tried to attack the guy when his attention was on them, but when he lunged at me, they both rushed up. Neither bit him. I don't know if either would have. It was an excellent show and turned the man around in a hurry.


Well done girls! I am sure you were proud at that moment and sounds like you handled it wonderfully.


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## Msmaria

I just tried the arguing and hitting my 25 yr old son and visa versa. Dex (13 months) just stood there with his tongue hanging out. And then got distracted hearing other neighborhood dogs barking and took off to the backyard barking. He must know were not serious :laugh:


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## blackshep

This question gets asked a lot. I'm not sure, to be honest. My dog will certainly bark at anything suspicious.

Just this morning, I was down at the barn feeding the horses, and it was still dark out. I must have not latched the barn door properly, because I heard it do a slow creek open because it was windy out and my dog started to bark at it (I had her leash looped over a hook, so she was tied). I have to say, she seemed pretty relieved when I went to check it out and closed the door. lol

But then, I have taken her to schutzhund a few times and done a bit of protection work with her, and the first time she ever did it, it's like she instinctively knew what to do, so it does make you wonder. 

Best case, I know I can rely on her to alert and she'd be a good deterrent. Which, let's face it, is better than any dog defending you if you find yourself in a confrontation. I'd much rather avoid the confrontation to begin with!

Worst case, she'd crumble. 

Plan for the worst, hope for the best!


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## Waldi

When I was a child I got gs puppy and we have grew together and he was never train to protect but if someone even playfully would try to grab and hold me he would step into action by initially growling and giving you a sign "you have 2 seconds to step back or ..." This was always the case and I remember when I was a teen my brother in law grabbed me from behind playfully, I got a quick reaction from my dog to the point that he froze and moved slowly away. he was part of the family and dog recognized him as part but they lived in a different household and perhaps why my dog reacted on him as treat.
Even my adopted Golden will put herself in between my kids and strangers everytime someone approahces as. So I my mind dogs naturally will have protective instinct in relation to the pack.


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## Lilie

IMO - anybody who relies on their dog to protect them, is a fool. Yes, your dog can make a bad guy think twice. Yes, your dog may bite a bad guy. But your dog won't put the bad guy out of commission, slap a pair of hand cuffs on the dude and then call 911.


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## martemchik

Despite the fact that this thread was resurrected after almost 2 years of no activity...

People that haven't done the training or don't understand the training will believe their dogs will protect them. What they think will happen is that the dog will bark/bite and the person will give up...well that's not how a real fight with a dog would happen. There would be a lot more pressure put on your dog than you could ever imagine, and until you train for that...you have no idea what your dog would do.

The person that resurrected the thread by posting about a fake fight with a family member...if that family member would've then went at the dog instead of backing down or just laughing...you'd see your dog's true reaction to how it would handle a real bad guy going after you or your dog. Many dogs will run and hide the moment someone actually goes forward towards them.


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## Baillif

That was a pretty awesome thread necro.


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## brembo

Little thing happened with Cable not too long ago. I was preparing a fire and had a stick of redwood cedar that was a bit too long to fit in the firebox, so I propped it up on another stick and stomped it real hard(clod-buster boots on). It broke with a rather loud snap and next thing I know Cable came sailing into the room, hackles up and ready to rumble. I can read him so-so most of the time, he's a very stable dog. Nothing (except cars) gets him in a tizzy, even harsh scolding only elicits a curious look from him. He has nerves in spades.

When he landed in the den, he was ON. I could read him very well, had someone been in there besides me I honestly think he was primed to be aggressive. When he found only me and a broken piece of tree he visibly loosened up and went back into curious GSD mode.


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## carmspack

quote ". At first he was only talking to me, and Jenna did not like him and went to the end of her leash away from him. He thought this was hillarious, and laughed and said, she was afraid of him. "

apparently she was . You are lucky she was on lead ! Avoidance behaviour , had she been able to choose flight , that was where she was heading , away , far far away. Being restricted in flight , fear aggressive fight came to the fore.


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## shepherdmom

martemchik said:


> Despite the fact that this thread was resurrected after almost 2 years of no activity...
> 
> People that haven't done the training or don't understand the training will believe their dogs will protect them. What they think will happen is that the dog will bark/bite and the person will give up...well that's not how a real fight with a dog would happen. There would be a lot more pressure put on your dog than you could ever imagine, and until you train for that...you have no idea what your dog would do.


My untrained dogs can and did take down a man who hopped over our back fence to break into our house. They had him on the ground and was biting his face. Husband whistled them off and the guy escaped over the fence but he was hurt pretty bad. We reported to the police who said they would send an alert to local hospitals. Never heard anything after that so I guess the guy didn't go to the hospital. Same two dogs again saved me when man knocked on door said he was from water company and asked to come in to check the water in our area. I asked for identification he tried to push his way in and dog let out the most scary low growl I've ever heard while other dog lunged at the door blocking the way in .... guy backed away and left. Next day there was an article in the paper of a guy claiming to be from water company who had raped a woman in our neighborhood. After that we moved out to the boonies. One of the same dogs and a different dog attacked a rattlesnake to protect my kids. Thankfully no one got hurt. Time and time again my untrained dogs have proved to me that they would give their all to save me and the kids. :wub:

That being said I have a little lab who one day my adult daughter startled by coming in quietly without knocking. The little lab literately screamed and ran away. :rofl:


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## Okin

I would be curious how many bite sleeve trained dogs wouldn't do anything when there was no sleeve present.


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## Msmaria

shepherdmom said:


> My untrained dogs can and did take down a man who hopped over our back fence to break into our house. They had him on the ground and was biting his face. Husband whistled them off and the guy escaped over the fence but he was hurt pretty bad. We reported to the police who said they would send an alert to local hospitals. Never heard anything after that so I guess the guy didn't go to the hospital. Same two dogs again saved me when man knocked on door said he was from water company and asked to come in to check the water in our area. I asked for identification he tried to push his way in and dog let out the most scary low growl I've ever heard while other dog lunged at the door blocking the way in .... guy backed away and left. Next day there was an article in the paper of a guy claiming to be from water company who had raped a woman in our neighborhood. After that we moved out to the boonies. One of the same dogs and a different dog attacked a rattlesnake to protect my kids. Thankfully no one got hurt. Time and time again my untrained dogs have proved to me that they would give their all to save me and the kids. :wub:
> 
> That being said I have a little lab who one day my adult daughter startled by coming in quietly without knocking. The little lab literately screamed and ran away. :rofl:


I think it just goes to show you that nothing is 100% percent. People can't say for sure whether your dog will protect you or not just based on training.I'm pretty sure mine wouldn't but I'm okay with that.


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## martemchik

Msmaria said:


> I think it just goes to show you that nothing is 100% percent. People can't say for sure whether your dog will protect you or not just based on training.I'm pretty sure mine wouldn't but I'm okay with that.


That's the point. I'm glad some of you have had great experiences, and guess what, you're not going to see any posts of how "I was attacked and my dog just stood there looking at the attacker."

The point is...without proper training you have NO IDEA how your dog will react. Glad that for some people the dog reacted in a good way, but it could've just as easily not done anything.

If the point is to *KNOW 100%* how your dog will react...the only way to do it is through training and testing. Not through pedigrees, not through "his dad was a K9," not through "he looks like he means business when the mail man comes by." 

Are there dogs that will protect their owner without any training? Sure...but I wouldn't bet my life on it if it was truly something I was worried about. At the end of the day, you shouldn't think that because you have a GSD it will react in a certain way.


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## misslesleedavis1

I think it depends on the dog. Some are just duds and some are not.


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## shepherdmom

Msmaria said:


> I think it just goes to show you that nothing is 100% percent. People can't say for sure whether your dog will protect you or not just based on training.I'm pretty sure mine wouldn't but I'm okay with that.


I think if you know dogs well, you will have a pretty good idea of which will protect you and which won't. You will never know for sure until it happens but I'm fairly confident I know which dogs would protect me. However I have my trusty Walther which is more for protection than the dogs are.


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## Baillif

Okin said:


> I would be curious how many bite sleeve trained dogs wouldn't do anything when there was no sleeve present.


Honestly all it would take is a few days extra training to get the ones that didnt bite without a sleeve present to attempt live bites. People train dogs to bite people unintentionally all the time. Not that hard.


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## martemchik

Baillif said:


> Honestly all it would take is a few days extra training to get the ones that didnt bite without a sleeve present to attempt live bites. People train dogs to bite people unintentionally all the time. Not that hard.


Yeah...a few sessions with a hidden sleeve. Surprising the dog by switching out a sleeve for a hidden one.

My dog took a suit quite easily the first time he saw one.


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## Baillif

As a decoy i prefer to decoy dogs that target sleeves and suits instead of biting indescriminately. If they were not descriminating id have had a few very serious injuries by now. Decoying dirty dogs is not fun or safe.


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## Baillif

It is, however, very exciting.


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## Okin

I do know a guy who had a "big mean" pitbull and got mugged on a walk and the dog didn't do a thing


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## Baillif

They apparently only attack their owners


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## RocketDog

Bailiff, some of your posts combined with that avi are a riot.


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## shepherdmom

RocketDog said:


> Bailiff, some of your posts combined with that avi are a riot.


His posts are great that last one had me :rofl: but the avi creeps me out.


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## selzer

carmspack said:


> quote ". At first he was only talking to me, and Jenna did not like him and went to the end of her leash away from him. He thought this was hillarious, and laughed and said, she was afraid of him. "
> 
> apparently she was . You are lucky she was on lead ! Avoidance behaviour , had she been able to choose flight , that was where she was heading , away , far far away. Being restricted in flight , fear aggressive fight came to the fore.


She probably was, she was an 8 month old puppy, and the guy was a spooky drunk man in the middle of the night. I didn't know him, he reeked of alcohol, and it was probably the first drunk person she ever encountered. 

The funny thing is that it was Jenna that retreated. Babs is a lot less outgoing than Jenna and always was. 

But no, the girls are 8 years old now, neither are fear biters. I have no trouble taking them anywhere, and meeting tons of people. I think that was just the response of a puppy in a situation she didn't like at all. 

I was about to say, "they're only puppies," when the man lunged.


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## Jakesworld

There are some clips on you tube where trainers demonstrated your exact question. Personally I believe, Yes and no. I've had two GSDs , Odin and Judaea. Both had no protection training. Both would protect me and mine. No questions asked. No bluffs. I was very close to these dogs. Odin had issues that through patience and perseverance where worked through. And went on to become the best dog ever. And extremely protective . Our gsd Loki, who I never really bonded with ( he was more like Odin's pet to me) would have probably invited a stranger in. He was all bark no bite. Now I have Jake, the big sissy. He sends the little older dogs to the front line, and hides by me for protection. But at 7+ months that's what he's suppose to do. All our GSDs came home at about 8 weeks, well bred, raised the same, never abused, only positive training. Yet, they all turned out very different. So I think the best thing is to bond with your dog. He's family, train and learn his triggers. Your dog can teach you so much. Connect with his mind. And maybe. If the situation arises when u need him to protect you, he might just surprise you! How brave he really is!...(or isn't)


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## martemchik

To everyone saying "I'm sure my dog would protect me"...

How do you know? Like seriously...how do you know? What kind of experience do you have that tells you, "Yup, that dog has IT?" Did the dog ever prove itself? Did you ever witness a dog's reaction in a truly high pressure situation where there was imminent danger of an attack? Or is the protection you're talking about something like...dog barks when someone walks by my house...

What is a protective dog? A dog that doesn't let anyone/anything near you? How do you evaluate true protection if you've never been in a situation where you NEEDED protecting?


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## Baillif

One day a stranger showed up in my yard and my dog barked! So brave! Defend this hoooooooouse!


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## Harry and Lola

I have never been in the position where I have needed protection, however I can only guess what my two would do based on their drive, personality and temperament.

Lola probably wouldn't, unfortunately she would lick the attacker to death if given the chance - she loves visitors.

Harry definitely would, he has never been trained in schutzhund or protection, however he tends to want to lunge at a visitor.


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## martemchik

Baillif said:


> One day a stranger showed up in my yard and my dog barked! So brave! Defend this hoooooooouse!


Under Armour?


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## Serbrider

I know for a fact that my currently 9 year old untrained dog would have protected me in the cases shown in the video. At least initially.

We've been on walks when I was younger where someone started to come towards me or lifted their hands, and she started barking or lunged towards them. I was always the one who had to tell her "no". Now... would she bite them? I have no idea. But she'd try and knock them over or bark or growl at them.

She is very friendly with humans, and loves people... but if someone walks up to our house or car uninvited, she will bark at them and growl and lunge at them (she'll do more of this if I don't tell her "no, it's OK" or something) until they go away or I intervene. Now again, would she bite them? I have no idea, since she never has.

And this is a lab/pit/whoknowswhat mix who has sort of medium level pack drive and low level prey drive.

An untrained dog DEFINITELY can protect its owner. Now... will all untrained dogs do so? NO. But there are those who can, and do.


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## selzer

I think I am 45. And, so far, I have never been in a protection-trained dog situation. My puppies scared away the drunk guy. A kid pulled a knife on me when I was 10, when I lived in the city, but I didn't have a dog, and my friend and I got ourselves out of that situation by running. 

Other than that, I just haven't been in a situation where I have needed a protection trained dog. I like having them at home. l am pretty sure that the lazier criminals give my abode the pass because I have dogs barking in there. And while I have a gun at home, the dogs let me know in plenty of time to grab it if someone is on or near the house. The CEI guy was there today messing with my meter. Babs was giving him ****, through the window. I kind of like that. But when I saw who it was, I told her to go to my bed, and she did. Good Girl Babs! 

I guess I must live in a bubble or something, because I think that walking down the street with a GSD is likely all you need. And if someone is foolish enough to approach menancingly, some adult GSD barks are probably more than enough to send them off to look for someone easier. 

If someone really wants to get you, they will know you have a dog, and bring a gun. The dog might be able to give you an early warning to get your gun if you are home, but if you are out with your dog, and they have a gun. They shoot your dog, and you are done. 

I think if I was that worried about personal attacks, I would move.


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## martemchik

selzer said:


> I think I am 45. And, so far, I have never been in a protection-trained dog situation. My puppies scared away the drunk guy. A kid pulled a knife on me when I was 10, when I lived in the city, but I didn't have a dog, and my friend and I got ourselves out of that situation by running.
> 
> Other than that, I just haven't been in a situation where I have needed a protection trained dog. I like having them at home. l am pretty sure that the lazier criminals give my abode the pass because I have dogs barking in there. And while I have a gun at home, the dogs let me know in plenty of time to grab it if someone is on or near the house. The CEI guy was there today messing with my meter. Babs was giving him ****, through the window. I kind of like that. But when I saw who it was, I told her to go to my bed, and she did. Good Girl Babs!
> 
> I guess I must live in a bubble or something, because I think that walking down the street with a GSD is likely all you need. And if someone is foolish enough to approach menancingly, some adult GSD barks are probably more than enough to send them off to look for someone easier.
> 
> If someone really wants to get you, they will know you have a dog, and bring a gun. The dog might be able to give you an early warning to get your gun if you are home, but if you are out with your dog, and they have a gun. They shoot your dog, and you are done.
> 
> I think if I was that worried about personal attacks, I would move.


Selzer, I 100% agree with your sentiment. I've always said the same thing whenever someone comes on this forum and wants to purchase a puppy to train it to be a PPD dog.

What I'm trying to get out of people is why they believe their dog would protect them in an extremely high pressure situation. Sadly, no one really understands my question because they don't understand what pressure is. All I've gotten is...my dog barks and growls at everything that comes near me, so I'm sure it would protect me if it had to. Awesome...you have a dog that would attack indiscriminantly, and has only been "tested" in situations where the person isn't being threatening, and is in no way putting any pressure on your dog.

I don't doubt some of these dogs would protect. But no one has any idea if that barking/growling dog would just as quickly shut down when someone hits it on the head once, or kicks it in the chest once.

It's just an interesting mindset to believe your dog will do something, that could involve your life being in danger, without training it or at least testing it out a little just to make sure. To have this, "I'm 100% sure" mindset, just makes zero sense.


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## Blanketback

I think the question itself is the issue: will my dog protect me? Ha, protect me from what?! From the boogeymen, absolutely. Knowing that my GSD is ever-alert means that he's got me covered there. But actual armed intruders? Probably not. Even if he was PPD trained, he'd have to be wrapped in kevlar. He definitely protects me from strangers harassing me, but I'd hold my own there anyways with my sharp tongue. It's the fact that we have GSDs that means we can entertain the hope of protection, IMO. But what do I know: maybe those super friendly wiggle-butt types that love every stranger they meet can turn on a dime?


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## misslesleedavis1

I agree with Selzer, having a dog by your side is most likely enough to make your typical joe criminal avoid you. I cant say my dogs would protect me, i have never been in a situation for them to prove it..i dont think anyone would want to break into my house, i mean its old and crappy looking, the fact we have 3 dogs losing there minds at the window would not make it any more appealing. Anyways i hope im never in a serious situation.


On a side note, yesterday at the carwash i was starting to think i would have to IV Tyson a valium as the nozzles were shooting out the rainbow foam...so no, i dont think he would protect me i think he would be crapping his pants in the corner.


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## boomer11

Serbrider said:


> I know for a fact that my currently 9 year old untrained dog would have protected me in the cases shown in the video. At least initially.
> 
> We've been on walks when I was younger where someone started to come towards me or lifted their hands, and she started barking or lunged towards them. I was always the one who had to tell her "no". Now... would she bite them? I have no idea. But she'd try and knock them over or bark or growl at them.
> 
> She is very friendly with humans, and loves people... but if someone walks up to our house or car uninvited, she will bark at them and growl and lunge at them (she'll do more of this if I don't tell her "no, it's OK" or something) until they go away or I intervene. Now again, would she bite them? I have no idea, since she never has.
> 
> And this is a lab/pit/whoknowswhat mix who has sort of medium level pack drive and low level prey drive.
> 
> An untrained dog DEFINITELY can protect its owner. Now... will all untrained dogs do so? NO. But there are those who can, and do.


You just described the type of dog I wouldn't want to own and isn't safe in public. I wouldn't call going crazy because strangers make quick movements with their hands protective...


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## Serbrider

She is very safe in public. Hand motions were towards me and the man in question was acting very erratically. I didn't quite describe it well. He backed off after noticing her and we walked on with no issues. It was only twice ever that she has done this. I can walk her in a large group of people on a loose leash with zero issues. I can take her anywhere and she does not act like what I described. Only in those two instances. (Looking back, I gave a horrid description). She's alert, listens to me if I correct her, and apart from the uninvited guests and barking at them, she has only acted in a defensive way in a situation that called for it.


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## martemchik

Blanketback and missleslee...you guys are way too rational for this thread and for the question I asked.

Every time something about PPD comes up, people really don't mind speaking out about how "dangerous" their area is and how they think they'll get attack rounding every corner in their neighborhood. I'm surprised none of those people have said anything...

My dog has always been a deterrent. I didn't care about his real ability to bite. I had an inkling he would, but didn't know 100%. I got into bite sport, now I have my answer. My dog doesn't really bark at people walking by, he's very friendly to anyone I allow into my house (never ever growls or barks at people entering the house). He's very well balanced, and I've only seen him get suspicious ONCE on a walk, and I have to say it was the only time the situation called for it. If I allow it, my dog will say hello to anyone that we pass on a walk, not aggressively, not suspiciously, just a friendly hello. People who aren't threatening, don't deserve to get an aggressive response...

By the logic of those that have posted, they probably would've thought that a dog like mine wouldn't protect me. Since he has never really shown any "aggressive" behaviors or tendencies that they've clearly enjoyed witnessing in their dogs that they claim will protect no matter what even though they have not been tested except by the mailman, or the friendly neighbor across the street.


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## misslesleedavis1

@martemchik,

I have never been accused of being too rational


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## shepherdmom

Serbrider said:


> She is very safe in public. Hand motions were towards me and the man in question was acting very erratically. I didn't quite describe it well. He backed off after noticing her and we walked on with no issues. It was only twice ever that she has done this. I can walk her in a large group of people on a loose leash with zero issues. I can take her anywhere and she does not act like what I described. Only in those two instances. (Looking back, I gave a horrid description). She's alert, listens to me if I correct her, and apart from the uninvited guests and barking at them, she has only acted in a defensive way in a situation that called for it.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Give it up Serbrider... Some people will never accept the concept than untrained dogs can and do protect their owners. They are most likely trainers and if people believe that they won't make any money. Just ignore them and move on.


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## Serbrider

Gosh... I really described her horribly. As an erratic uncontrollable dog. Which she is not. She's great with kids. Very calm and relaxed 99% of the time. I can take her anywhere without worry. Hops right in the car and goes all sorts of places with me, etc. No problems. She doesn't bark at anyone who passes by, she just sits there and hangs her head out the window.

Man, I gave a horrid description!  There were two times when I was younger that she acted in defense of me/herself. Not including the times she barks at strangers coming up to our car/house/gate. Just barks, doesn't lunge after them unless they continue to press, and even then, only as much as needed, which has been very little to be honest.

The two times were as followed:

Was walking her at night. I think the guy was drunk or something, I don't really know. But he started yelling at me in an angry way and then walking towards me. Tasha started growling and barked a few times with her hackles raised, I think I was 13 or 14 at the time and didn't really know what to do about it. But after those couple barks, the guy stopped yelling and walked off in the opposite direction, and Tasha was fine again.

The instance where she lunged at a guy (it was a little lunge, not like a giant I"M GONNA KILL YOU) kind of thing, the guy was looking at and walking towards me very erratically, and lifted his hand towards me. My dog gave a little bit of movement or something (I call it a lunge, it was more like a large flinch or something) in his direction and her hackles started to come up just a little, I corrected her since at first, I didn't process it fully. The guy noticed her and walked off. My brain then connected the hand motions. I don't know what he was going to do... but there was something not quite right.


We then walked off without any issues. She can go to parks with me. She's been on a plane and moved continents with me. I've taken her to local county fairs, etc. And none of those times has she done anything like the two times above. Because there was no need for her to act defensively.


I do have to agree though. Going off of what I wrote before, I wouldn't want to own that dog either. A dog that reacts to everything is dangerous and not desirable. But that's not the dog I own.


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## martemchik

shepherdmom said:


> Give it up Serbrider... Some people will never accept the concept than untrained dogs can and do protect their owners. They are most likely trainers and if people believe that they won't make any money. Just ignore them and move on.


It has nothing to do with that...

Just re-read Serbrinder's original description of how the dog reacts to certain things. It truly does sound terrible. With the second explanation, sounds much better and isn't a worrisome description of how a dog should be reacting to the things originally described in the first post.

Many of the other posts have been just like that...read them. I bet even if the poster re-reads them they'll realize how unbalanced and unsafe it makes their dogs sound.

I've had a person tell me that their dog is very protective and super watchful of the area around them. Their reason? One time, someone put a McDonald's cup across the street from her house. When she took the dog for a walk, the dog was barking and growling at the cup. Her reason? The dog realized something was different and needed to investigate what it was...yup...a dangerous McDonald's cup. Isn't it amazing how watchful that dog is? It would fight the McDonald's cup to the death!


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## Blanketback

Well, I do try very hard to be rational, lol. Many years ago I was living in an area that was declining fast, and was getting downright unsafe, so I moved. That was too bad, because that area had been wonderful for decades. But the random violence scared me, and even though my GSDs kept it away from my front door they couldn't be with me at every moment.


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## shepherdmom

martemchik said:


> It has nothing to do with that...
> 
> Just re-read Serbrinder's original description of how the dog reacts to certain things. It truly does sound terrible. With the second explanation, sounds much better and isn't a worrisome description of how a dog should be reacting to the things originally described in the first post.
> 
> Many of the other posts have been just like that...read them. I bet even if the poster re-reads them they'll realize how unbalanced and unsafe it makes their dogs sound.


I just get frustrated at the pooh poohing that goes on sometimes. Some people might not be the best at expressing themselves in writing but that doesn't mean that their dog is a hot mess.


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## martemchik

shepherdmom said:


> I just get frustrated at the pooh poohing that goes on sometimes. Some people might not be the best at expressing themselves in writing but that doesn't mean that their dog is a hot mess.


But lets be serious...in the context of this thread its probably somewhat warranted.

If I ask why you believe your dog would do it, and you tell me some completely ridiculous reason, I can't be siting on the other side of the computer screen and believe that its probably the description of the situation and not just what truly happened.

I've actually tried to not directly question any one person or their dog/description of their dog and the situation they were in because I know it upsets people. But if you look at all the descriptions together, most of them have the same exact undertone...people not understanding what their dog is reacting to, or thinking its awesome that their dog overreacts in a situation and equating it to being a great guarding dog.


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## Lilie

Blanketback said:


> But what do I know: maybe those super friendly wiggle-butt types that love every stranger they meet can turn on a dime?


I've told this story before, but to make my point:

My first GSD as a teen ager was this type of dog. She went everywhere with me before I could drive. She'd follow us down the road while we road our horses. She'd sit outside the burger joints next to our tied horses, while we ate lunch. She'd come with me when I snuck out my window at night and ran the roads. She never met a stranger. 

One day my friend and I were at a pool in an apartment complex behind my parent's house. My GSD was with me. She hated water and would lay under the gazebo they had at the pool. We were alone. My friend and I were laying in the sun on one side of the gazebo. I decided to take a quick dip to cool off. While in the water, a man jumped into the pool, grabbed me and held me under the water with one arm and was stipping off my bathing suit bottom with the other. 

Hearing the splash, my friend jumped up, saw what was happening and jumped into the water to defend me. She didn't realize that my dog had already jumped into the pool. My dog bit the man holding me in the face. He let go and my friend dragged me to the side of the pool. We were followed by my dog. We left the man screaming in the water, holding his bloody face. Being young, we were more afraid of what would happend to my dog having bitten someone in the face, then we were about reporting what happened. 

My dog never showed any 'protective' behaviors before. Afterwards she was still the ever lovin', social butterfly. 

My point is, if a dog can detect seizures, cancer, find missing people, determine the difference between an old dead squirrel and a human tooth, a dog should be able to detect between a real threat and a scenairo set up to satisfy it's owners.


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## Serbrider

I do have to say I agree with you martemchik. While Tasha did react defensively in those two times, and is clear about her desire to defend our house, backyard, or the inside of our car, it could be all bark and no bite.

While I would like to believe my baby girl was defending me in those two cases... I don't actually know. And if they had kept pushing at me, I really don't know what she would have done.

And I 100% agree that a lot of people who have "protective" dogs really just have out of control, reactive dogs. And that is not what you want in a protection dog. Especially one that is out and about with you.

I came on here wanting a PPD. The more I researched it and got advice from people on here, that really wasn't what I needed. A confident dog, perhaps with some bitework training, that could go with me everywhere with no fear of them misreading something and "protecting" me.


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## shepherdmom

martemchik said:


> But lets be serious...in the context of this thread its probably somewhat warranted.
> 
> *If I ask why you believe your dog would do it, and you tell me some completely ridiculous reason*, I can't be siting on the other side of the computer screen and believe that its probably the description of the situation and not just what truly happened.
> 
> *I've actually tried to not directly question any one person or their dog/description of their dog and the situation they were in because I know it upsets people*. But if you look at all the descriptions together, most of them have the same exact undertone...people not understanding what their dog is reacting to, or thinking its awesome that their dog overreacts in a situation and equating it to being a great guarding dog.


But what do you need to question someone? Their reasons may be "completely ridiculous" to you but they are happy with their dogs. Why does it bother you? 

My untrained pets took down a guy who jumped over the fence. I'm sure they did it all wrong. Pretty sure biting him in the face wouldn't be proper guard dog etiquette. Just as I'm sure growling and lunging at the guy who tried to push his way in the door was all wrong too! Here is the thing. It worked. It stopped the bad guy! So who is to say what is right or wrong? My dogs did what I wanted them to in situations where it made a difference to me and others who shared their stories had their dogs do what they wanted them to do in situations that mattered to them and that is really all that matters isn't it?


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## martemchik

shepherdmom said:


> But what do you need to question someone? Their reasons may be "completely ridiculous" to you but they are happy with their dogs. Why does it bother you?
> 
> My untrained pets took down a guy who jumped over the fence. I'm sure they did it all wrong. Pretty sure biting him in the face wouldn't be proper guard dog etiquette. Just as I'm sure growling and lunging at the guy who tried to push his way in the door was all wrong too! Here is the thing. It worked. It stopped the bad guy! So who is to say what is right or wrong? My dogs did what I wanted them to in situations where it made a difference to me and others who shared their stories had their dogs do what they wanted them to do in situations that mattered to them and that is really all that matters isn't it?


Here's the thing...you're talking about an actual situation where your dog's did X. I'm not questioning that. I would never question that. Someone was in the back yard, they took him down, awesome! Nothing...absolutely nothing is wrong with that. I do not expect an untrained or even a trained dog to be able to decipher between a threat in your backyard/their property and a friend in their yard (if they've never met that friend). This is why when someone talks about a kid jumping into a backyard and getting mauled...I say, how do you expect a dog to treat a 15 year old different from a 30 year old? Now...if its like a 40 pound 10 year old, maybe the dog shouldn't go all out and rip the kid to shreds, but many dogs will, they don't have the same rational thought process we do.

But the reasoning I'm talking about is the...my dog stares at everyone that walks past my house and barks his head off at it. Or...like the one poster described originally..."my dog has barked at people who lifted their hands." What are we supposed to think of that type of description? That they have a solid dog that would protect them from anyone that raises their hands at them? Or has their hands out of their pockets while walking by their dog?

I don't doubt that many untrained dogs WOULD do something to a true attacker. But I believe questioning people's reasoning for thinking their dog will do it 100% without actual knowledge of seeing it, or testing it in a controlled environment, is perfectly valid. I also didn't start this thread, so I could care less what you believe, but I think this has been a very good, respectful, discussion that doesn't need anyone coming in and questioning WHY I care about the reasons they think they way they do. Isn't that the point of all threads/posts? Or should all of our threads be yes/no without any actual back up why we think the way we do?


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## Courtney

I'm in the camp that I have no idea what my dog would do.

Shepherdmom makes a valid point IMO that this site can do a good job convincing an owner they have a nerve bag dog. I have often thought having a "true" GSD is reserved for a select few.

martemchik, you always bring an interesting perspective to topics & understand your point in this thread, last few pages.

But, I have been wanting to ask- why not in this thread

Forget about protection trained dogs....what the heck happened to a GSD natural protective instincts?? It seems there's an overwhelming opinion that a dog must be trained in protection to protect its owner...why? Again, what happened to a instinct a GSD is supposed to have?


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## martemchik

Serbrider said:


> I do have to say I agree with you martemchik. While Tasha did react defensively in those two times, and is clear about her desire to defend our house, backyard, or the inside of our car, it could be all bark and no bite.
> 
> While I would like to believe my baby girl was defending me in those two cases... I don't actually know. And if they had kept pushing at me, I really don't know what she would have done.
> 
> And I 100% agree that a lot of people who have "protective" dogs really just have out of control, reactive dogs. And that is not what you want in a protection dog. Especially one that is out and about with you.
> 
> I came on here wanting a PPD. The more I researched it and got advice from people on here, that really wasn't what I needed. A confident dog, perhaps with some bitework training, that could go with me everywhere with no fear of them misreading something and "protecting" me.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


My questioning is very theoretical and the point is to get people to think.

IF, and its a huge IF...you're in a life or death situation, and yes, for some reason a bad guy decided to attack you even though you're walking a GSD, would your untrained dog protect you and are you willing to bet your life on it? I'm not...

If...my situation is a true worry for you (which it shouldn't be and if it is...do as blanketback did, and move), would you be willing to put that trust in your untrained dog? I personally wouldn't be...and I think its terrible to be putting it out there for other people to read and believe that just because they own a GSD their dog will protect them.

I also think that there is no problem with correcting people and teaching them that a dog barking at completely peaceful people...is not a sign that your dog would do anything in a real situation. If your dog barking at the mailman is the only reason that you have to believe your dog would protect you, its not correct.

We have people here questioning if a dog can move from a sleeve to a real threat...and yet its wrong for me to question the fact that a barking dog doesn't necessarily mean it will protect you?

Like the post above said...the majority of people that see "protective behavior" doesn't understand it. They see anger, barking, snarling, growling, but don't understand where its coming from. They just like it. They like that no one goes near them or their house. How many times have we had people that believe their 3 month old puppy barking/lunging at dogs on the street is the dog being protective of them and how awesome their dog is because of it, instead of realizing its fear based behavior?


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## Blanketback

Lilie, thank you for that great story! But again, that was a GSD and I was thinking that some dogs (of a different breed) are just so crazy for attention that I wonder if they'd be quite as formidable?


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## Lark

I do not believe my dog would protect me. He could completely shock me, and he is still pretty young, but right now I feel like he wouldn't know what to do. He is confident and not fear aggressive, so maybe that would make a difference. But in general I just don't think he has the personality to be a guard dog.


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## Lilie

Blanketback said:


> Lilie, thank you for that great story! But again, that was a GSD and I was thinking that some dogs (of a different breed) are just so crazy for attention that I wonder if they'd be quite as formidable?


There was a local story here a few months ago. Two men broke into a lady's home. She had a couple of ankle bitters. They forced the lady into her bedroom totally ignoring the ankle bitters. The aggression towards the homeowner PLUS the obvious fear reaction from the homeowner, set the little dogs off. They attacked the intruders. No, obviously they couldn't do any real damage to the intruders, but they did distract the intruders enough that the home owner was able to retrieve her firearm from her night stand. She chased off her intruders. 

In my opinion, those little dogs saved the home owners life. They protected her and she protected them. Team work.


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## selzer

We had a GSD out in Plymouth Township or Sheffield Township -- too close to me, anyway, where two intruders shot the dog twice, but the home-owner had a chance to get his gun. When they burst the door open, he was ready for them and able to chase them off. 

The dog was shot in the muzzle and somewhere else, but he lived. He protected. He gave the home-owner the opportunity to protect his people.


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## boomer11

A lot of people think a dog is protecting them but in truth the dog is protecting himself or his territory. 

A lot of you would be surprised if you sat in a room and then a decoy open the door and rushed directly at you and started punching, what your dog would do. 

Also big difference between biting and letting go and biting to take the man down. That's where training comes in. 

If you want a great deterrent just get the most nervous fearful dog you can find. I'd put money down it wouldn't protect you though. 

It's good that a lot of you think your dog will protect you. Almost all of us will never need it but it's the peace of mind that is valued. It just irks me when people think fear reactive is protection and are proud of their dog's behavior.


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## Blanketback

So the moral of the story is: pray that the bad guy isn't a decoy!


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## Courtney

Yeah- because those bad guys always show up in weird puffy suits & bite sleeves


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## boomer11

Courtney said:


> Yeah- because those bad guys always show up in weird puffy suits & bite sleeves


What's your point? If a dog is untrained then more than likely it's never bitten/seen a suit or sleeve before so it's a test of the dogs courage. Not if it will bite a sleeve. Anyways you would be surprised with your wannabe big bad protective dog.... 

And right because bad guys don't EVER break into houses wearing puffy coats or wear masks, they go naked


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## Merciel

boomer11 said:


> If you want a great deterrent just get the most nervous fearful dog you can find.


I will testify that this works, although personally I'd rather take the tradeoff of having a normal dog who doesn't freak out equally hard when it's just a completely innocuous person trying to ask me for directions. 

Anyway I've told my story here before, but my completely useless-for-actual-protection dingbats have saved my butt on three separate occasions.

It's a good thing would-be muggers suck at reading dogs.


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## Courtney

I have commented a couple times in this thread from the beginning actually.

I have no idea what my dog would do but I'm not putting my sense of security in my dog. I do hope he would make someone think twice just by his appearance alone.

I just have a hard time with what people think their dog would do. In a real life situation I react differently when truly fearing for my life...even my smell will change. In that situation what does my dog do?? This is not a made up training scenario, routine. I just really hate the video that started this whole thread...that girl was not in fear of her life. It's such hogwash.

Strip everything away & get to the core of the dog. GSD are supposed to be by instinct naturally protective. Forget training. When do we see this? I can't sign up for we only see it with protection trained dogs.

Now, my husband did a contract job for the former Blackwater years ago. Those dogs you won't see on a Shutzhund field & you don't want to come across them in a dark alley. lol


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## Phantom

marinehoney said:


> Will an untrained dog protect it's owner? www.BobsDogs.com - YouTube
> 
> I saw this video and disagree. To me, those trained dogs attacked because they saw a padded arm or were given their trigger word. And the untrained dogs cowering seems right for some dogs too...but maybe they knew the "attacker"? What does everyone else think?
> I personally think that an untrained dog can protect its owner.


I'm not sure if a dog will protect or not, but I do know this video proves nothing. You cannot really test this. The people would have acted differently in real life and I'm sure the dogs would have too. I know for a fact that my dog will at least bark at someone just because I'm paranoid about them without them even having done anything. Also if someone grabbed me I'd be screaming and kicking and fighting with all my might, not just standing calmly saying get him doggy. I think your reaction is what the dog reacts to.
I don't have much experience with dogs or people though, so this is just my thinking


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## GSDBC17

I don't believe that all untrained dogs would protect their owners, but my completely untrained border collie mix did attack a man who came up to me with possibly bad intentions. She is often good in town and around groups of people but out in the country she goes into full on guard mode, no training required. However, my shepherd seems really friendly so far, but he is still really young and will probably grow out of it.


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## selzer

Ok, since the sun is shining and its 46 degrees out there, and I am in a excellent mood, I will tell the story about when my parents' house had an attempted burglary. 

This was back when my brother's step son was graduating, before Cujo, so a number of years ago. We were all over at the open house. My parents' neighbor's home had been burgled around the same time. 

Anyhow, they had this small, about 40-45 pound English Setter from the Llewelyn lines. A hunting dog, that was a complete marshmallow, dumber than a box of rocks, and afraid of his own shadow. 

Well, the perpetrators broke the back screen door's lock and two basement windows, but Pippy the Wonder Dog, did not let them gain access. 

Maybe they were just too dumb to figure out how to go about it. Maybe Pippy stopped them. 

Either way, that's my story. 

A few years ago my brother's house was burgled in earnest though. He has a Dachsund/Beagle mix, Tiger. They kicked Tiger and hurt him pretty bad, and got away with the TV, DVDs, and computer crap. Not sure what that is supposed to prove though. 

Maybe bigger dogs, even marshmallows like Pippy are better deterrents. 

I know that Dad keeps the door locked all the time now that Cujo isn't around. I so want to install one of my girls here. Just for piece of mind. Heidi would be perfect. She would tolerate the babies and the family, and she is big and scary enough looking to deter most would-be criminals.


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## Rexy

None of my best dogs would protect me untrained, however I have had some thin nerved defence driven dogs who will bite people in protection of themselves when feeling insecure about a person or situation which is usable protection to a degree, but they were far from good GSD's.

Other than protection of territory, a good stable confident dog has no environmental fear to get defensive over untrained unless directly provoked, so ideally a good dog is unlikely to protect it's handler from assault when out and about, being the reason you train "good" dogs in personal protection which become controllable and safe.


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## GSDluver4lyfe

Rexy said:


> None of my best dogs would protect me untrained, however I have had some thin nerved defence driven dogs who will bite people in protection of themselves when feeling insecure about a person or situation which is usable protection to a degree, but they were far from good GSD's.
> 
> Other than protection of territory, a good stable confident dog has no environmental fear to get defensive over untrained unless directly provoked, so ideally a good dog is unlikely to protect it's handler from assault when out and about, being the reason you train "good" dogs in personal protection which become controllable and safe.


My last GSD was like that. Would bite just about anything if given the chance. I have a pretty hard time classifying him as "fear agressive" (civil and extremely sharp, which IMO is a nerve issue) but there has to be some sense of fear to actually recognize a threat and act on it. The one thing that bothered me was his intention, which IMHO was to kill the "threat". Not drive it away, not to put on a good show or to retreat himself. When his natural instinct was to lunge for the throat (and had attempted multiple times) I knew I was in no position at the time to manage him properly, without incident. He was a dangerous dog, not one that can fit into the mold of society, without extreme management. But if a dog has to be locked away from the world, personal protection becomes a mute point. "Ugh....hold on one second, let me get my dog"


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## Chip18

Well I have to weight on the "I" don't know side my guy isn't trained in protection. He rarely barks unless "something" different is outside. I have only heard him growl twice in 7 years. The first time at company 
company fixed the problem and in the process of doing that I though him what normal human and normal dog interact looked like.

The second growl was when I slipped on ice in front of a charging dog while defending him, I heard the growl as he stepped in front of me to deter the charging dog!

But a person getting in my face while he's with me?? Don't know he doesn't do much in the way of barking but he does know what normal looks like. So someone gets in my face..he's gonna be there problem?


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## Blitzkrieg1

Courtney said:


> I have commented a couple times in this thread from the beginning actually.
> 
> I have no idea what my dog would do but I'm not putting my sense of security in my dog. I do hope he would make someone think twice just by his appearance alone.
> 
> I just have a hard time with what people think their dog would do. In a real life situation I react differently when truly fearing for my life...even my smell will change. In that situation what does my dog do?? This is not a made up training scenario, routine. I just really hate the video that started this whole thread...that girl was not in fear of her life. It's such hogwash.
> 
> Strip everything away & get to the core of the dog. GSD are supposed to be by instinct naturally protective. Forget training. When do we see this? I can't sign up for we only see it with protection trained dogs.
> 
> Now, my husband did a contract job for the former Blackwater years ago. Those dogs you won't see on a Shutzhund field & you don't want to come across them in a dark alley. lol


You realize those dogs likely came from ipo lines same as most police and military gsd right? As for the dog fearing for its life go watch a dog thats biting in pure defence fight or flight. Any kind of real pressure and they bale 99% of the time. Being a gsd guarentees nothing, training can give you an idea but in the end its the dog itself.


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## LaRen616

My dog is trained not in protection but he is trained.  

He has already proven that he will protect me when a threat presented itself. 

Do I know that he would do it again? No I don't know but I would like to think that he would but I wouldn't rely on him to take care of the problem, I would like to think that we would work together to get rid of the threat.


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## TommyB681

That video is awful. There are so many factors that go into that equation. Penny has no protection training but she went after my brother when we were wrestling because she thought i needed help. (cant rough-house around her because she got very aggressive) I believe if someone put there hands on me she would come to my aide


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