# Do White German Shepherds have behaviour problems?



## woody (Apr 28, 2011)

I'm reading a book called German Shepherd Dog, An Owners Guide by Dr Peter Neville and in the book he writes:

"All white German Shepherd dogs are growing in popularity, but they are not recognized by purists and they may sometimes have behaviour problems"

This is all he writes about them. Is this true?


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## jdh520 (Jun 4, 2011)

From what I've heard. The white breed was created by inbreeding which does lead to mental problems. I have a white one and he is the biggest goofball you would ever meet. He is very sweet and very loyal. I don't see any behavioral problems in him.


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## atruepastime (Mar 12, 2011)

Sounds like the author has an issue with the acceptance of white gsds within the gsd gene pool, because of the colour they are not considered gsds by certain show standards and have their own breed name as well in parts of the world - "White Swiss Shepherds" is what they are also known as. 
I think the statement that they may have behavioural issues because of their colour is quite misrepresentative. Temperament can be influenced by both genes and environment. Non-white gsd may sometimes have behavioural issues but it is not something that is accepted or expected of the breed.


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## Mitch (Jul 1, 2011)

The author said "they may". If you don't have issues with your gsd don't worry about it. . Don't believe everything you read it will just give you headaches. The temperament depends on what line your gsd came from. I used to read books about labs because we have one and it used to give me headaches. Just look at your pet and appreciate her/him.


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## woody (Apr 28, 2011)

I don't own a white shepherd so am not really concerned by his comments, just want to learn more really.....but seems a bit tricky as there are so many different opinions. Maybe i'll just buy 50 dogs over the next 40 years & form my own conclusions!


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

Here's a link about a White GSD that I met a few weeks ago or so. 
I've got more experience with the traditional looking black/tan black/red sable, etc. Bottomline he was behaviorally much better than most of the GSDs that come into my job. Definitely temprament (sorry spelling nazis!) and environment play a factor here.

This guy is great! I hope the link works...

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...9827-met-coolest-white-shepherd-not-pard.html


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## dOg (Jan 23, 2006)

*experts*

They ALL *may* have behavioral problems, no matter the color.

I find the constant berating of out of standard or show vs working hilarious.

The working/show debate is over 100 years old. Nothing that can be said about has not been said, in many languages, thousands and thousands of times! 

When you can go back in the pedigrees a hundred years, they are all squarer, and yet blowhards opine with disdain and self righteousness about what is faulty in the conformation, as if they had a clue. 

People are dumber than the dogs...and when there are behavioral issues,
the mirror is the most valuable tool to examine the cause.


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## DWP (Mar 31, 2011)

*white was one od the early colors*

I read a while back that the white coated GSD emerged very erly in the development of the breed. It was not preferred but it was not considered to be bad. It didn't fit with what they wanted in that it made the dog overly visable. The author may have been wrong, but as an owner of a white one, I can say she is the better behaved and more alert of my two.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

From my understanding the white gene came early on in foundation stock, I also believe that the the white is just a masking gene. Reach in and take that out of the dog, and you have your typical blk/tan/blk/sable/whatever.

They have no more behavior problems than any other dog IMO. I have had no bad experiences.


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## VegasResident (Oct 4, 2006)

Any dog can have behavioral issues from bad breeding or bad training and raising. 

I am with dOg about the debate on show v working v conformation.

What is considered a perfect GSD in the ring now looks nothing like the GSD as originally bred a long long time ago.

Perfection is in the eye of the guy that wrote the book


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

The gene for white has always been part of the GSD. It was passed down through Horands (SV #1 - first GSD) maternal grandfather, Greif von Sparwasser a white shepherding dog. Horand and his litter mate Luch were bred extensively when the breed was being developed. Both dogs were line-bred and inbred with their own offspring to refine the breed. Luch and Horand's progeny carried the white gene factor and it was passed down to all subsequent generations of the breed. 


The German Shepherd Dog, It's History, Development & Genetics - written by Malcolm Willis is an excellent reference for those really interested in the history of the breed.


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## whiteyowner (Sep 2, 2011)

*My WGSD*

I have a white german shepherd and he has had some behavioral problems since we got him at 7 weeks. He is very timid and shy, he doesnt like anyone he is not familiar to come up to him. He also had never licked us. he hides his face a lot and will try to stick his head through pretty much any hole he can find. Its almost like he is just naturally less domesticated than the other dogs. He is a big baby and will whine if you clean out his eyes or even pick up his paw and act like you are going to cut his nails. anyone with similar problems. He is now almost 2 years old now


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## Scarlettsmom (Jul 12, 2011)

Our WGSD is timid with other dogs, but extremely protective of her "pack". She is a little nervous with new people, but she warms up to them. She NEVER forgets anyone she meets. She is also "goofy" and incredibly affectionate and cuddly. If that's a behaviour problem, I'll live with it. We do think she has a "licker" problem though. She licks us all the time.


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## weber1b (Nov 30, 2008)

I personnaly know three white shepherds and they are all wonderful dogs with good temperaments.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

I can't go by my girl, the people I got her from said they were told they should not have bred and had the liter to begin with. So she's a product of poor breeding, one of those I want to have a litter of pups but with good intentions I guess. She can be quite the skittish one, I have to make sure I keep up with her socialization & training. She is sweet as pie, friendly to people & dogs when I take her out to a social event. She just doesn't like to be restrained by holding her, yet I can give her hugs.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

I've had 8 WGSDs and 6 colored GSDs. One had a serious temperament problem which was overcome with a lot of hard work, the others had various types of temperaments, none that I would criticize.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

The white masking gene is not associated with behavioural or temperament problems, but any dog of any colour can have behavioural and temperament problems due to poor breeding, and sometimes due to a fluke of the genetic lottery.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

dOg said:


> They ALL *may* have behavioral problems, no matter the color.
> 
> I find the constant berating of out of standard or show vs working hilarious.
> 
> ...


Two dew claws up on that. Since people are dumber than dogs,
I had my dog respond :laugh:


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## DukeJazz (Jul 4, 2009)

I've owned 2 and, like any other dog I've ever owned, they are a product of how they were raised and their life experiences.

My 1st girl was the runt of the litter. She grew up a little shy & wary of strangers. She was quiet & reserved and never seemed interested in playing with toys, tho she loved the "chase me" game with either one of us or 1 of the other dogs doing the chasing. She was loyal & obedient, very gentle & tollerant.

My current WGSD couldn't be more opposite. She is aggressive, alpha and highly protective. Plays hard, loves to bark, has high prey drive and laser like focus on the task at hand. She does not like to be petted by anyone other than me, but will play ball with you till your arm falls off. She would have been a good candidate for S&R or LEO training. She is the 1st dog I've ever owned I believe would fight to the death to defend us if an attacker were to come into our home !

Duke the B&T guy is a lot like the 1st WGSD. Quiet, compliant & reserved, zero interest in toys or play of any sort. Half heartedly barks at the door. Loves attention & nuzzles everyone for pets. Loves his walks, but won't romp in the yard with the other dogs.


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## DukeJazz (Jul 4, 2009)

whiteyowner said:


> I have a white german shepherd and he has had some behavioral problems since we got him at 7 weeks. He is very timid and shy, he doesnt like anyone he is not familiar to come up to him. He also had never licked us. he hides his face a lot and will try to stick his head through pretty much any hole he can find. Its almost like he is just naturally less domesticated than the other dogs. He is a big baby and will whine if you clean out his eyes or even pick up his paw and act like you are going to cut his nails. anyone with similar problems. He is now almost 2 years old now


All GSD's are notorious for being whiny, cry babies. Being wary of strangers is also an expected trait. Some dogs give kisses, some just don't.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

I don't think it's true. Some people say the same thing about chocolate labs, and I have one and he is wonderful.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Well, one thing to remember is the gene pool for the WGSD is VERY small and the breeders are breeding for color generally. So yes, I do think that under those circumstances more undesirable traits are likely to crop up that you don't have much control over. Small gene pool and breeding for color first and foremost is bound to have a negative impact somewhere--whether it's nerves, working ability, health, etc.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

DukeJazz said:


> Being wary of strangers is also an expected trait. QUOTE]
> 
> NO, being ALOOF -- ie neutral and not caring about the individual's presence is an "expected trait." NOT BEING WARY!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

DukeJazz said:


> All GSD's are notorious for being whiny, cry babies.


And that's not true either - not ALL. At 2 1/2, my GSD is really developing an air of self-contained quiet confidence. Not a cry-baby by any means.


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## DukeJazz (Jul 4, 2009)

GSDElsa said:


> DukeJazz said:
> 
> 
> > Being wary of strangers is also an expected trait. QUOTE]
> ...


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## jillian (Mar 5, 2010)

> I don't own a white shepherd so am not really concerned by his comments, just want to learn more really.....but seems a bit tricky as there are so many different opinions. Maybe i'll just buy 50 dogs over the next 40 years & form my own conclusions!


LOL! That's probably the easiest way! Everyone has their own opinion and you see this in almost every book ever written on the GSD. The most important thing to know imo is what the gsd was originally intended for, which is work and their versatility as a dog not versatility within the breed. None the less everyone has a different idea of what the perfect German Shepherd should be/-))))

There are good and bad representatives of the breed no matter which line you look at.

A great book to read to understand what they breed was developed for and their use is The German Shepherd in Word and Picture.


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## Marshmallows (Jan 28, 2007)

GSDElsa said:


> Well, one thing to remember is the gene pool for the WGSD is VERY small and the breeders are breeding for color generally. So yes, I do think that under those circumstances more undesirable traits are likely to crop up that you don't have much control over. Small gene pool and breeding for color first and foremost is bound to have a negative impact somewhere--whether it's nerves, working ability, health, etc.


So I have to ask how many white German Shepherd lines and breeders have you looked at? Are you familiar with the white shepherd Genetics project with its Geneticist’s Pedigree and health surveys?

The gene pool for whites is not any smaller that the than colored shepherds they can and are interbreed after all, Many white German Shepherd breeders use colored dogs in their breeding programs. 

The only breeding for color is another misconception. Are there "breeders" that throw two dogs together just because they are white, sure just like any other color of Shepherds. White breeders show their dogs in several venues including their parent clubs, the American Rare Breed Association, International All Breed Canine Association, and the United Kennel club to name a few. They also compete in obedience trials, rally, agility, and herding.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Marshmallows said:


> So I have to ask how many white German Shepherd lines and breeders have you looked at? Are you familiar with the white shepherd Genetics project with its Geneticist’s Pedigree and health surveys?......shortened quote.....





Marshmallows said:


> The only breeding for color is another misconception. Are there "breeders" that throw two dogs together just because they are white, sure just like any other color of Shepherds.




Trying to convince people that you can breed for color and at the same time take other traits into consideration is a hard sell when you're talking about whites, but nice try.


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## Marshmallows (Jan 28, 2007)

Hard sell, I don't know about that. I have seen a big improvement in the reputation of whites over the last 20 years; due in a large part to the kind of breeders I was talking about. It takes a long time to over come all the misinformation that gets passed on from one person to the next as facts.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Marshmallows said:


> Hard sell, I don't know about that. I have seen a big improvement in the reputation of whites over the last 20 years; due in a large part to the kind of breeders I was talking about. It takes a long time to over come all the misinformation that gets passed on from one person to the next as facts.


Lol. Yes, it's a hard sell and BS, I'm sorry  It's not just a white thing--any breeder who focuses the majority of their breeding program on color is doing the same thing. WGSL's going for "black and red." DDR breeders marketing the "black sable." Something somewhere is negatively impacted. 

I did say "generally" because I am well aware there are WGSD breeders who will incorporate colored dogs in their program (although the majority that I've seen incorporated are ASL dogs).

There really isn't any arguing that the working ability of WGSD's has been negatively affected since you want to get into it. It's been discussed numerous times. Sure, they compete in OB and agility. But how many have you seen successfully compete in protection sports or be police dogs? Yes, yes...realize there are one or two out there because people have tried really hard to find them and give examples. 

But putting on blinders won't do anything to improve the reputation. And neither is misdirection trying to point to other lines and their problems. Focus on what you need to improve within what you have control over. This thread wasn't about colored GSD problems. They have their own too. It was about WGSD's. 

CONSISTENTLY BREEDING FOR COLOR AS ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT FACTORS (rather than one of the least) WILL *ALWAYS* NEGATIVELY EFFECT THE END PRODUCT--NO MATTER WHAT THE LINE AND WHAT THE COLOR.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

The majority of wGSDs I have met have been low drive and had less than stellar temperaments (shy, nervous, reactive, etc). The few I've met with sound temperaments were still pretty low drive and didn't seem to have proper GSD temperaments. I met a more even mix of GSDs, even BYB ones who have decent temperaments. I'm not saying it's due to the color but IME wGSDs do tend to have temperament problems. I suspect it's most likely due to wGSDs being bred for so long only as pets. FWIW though, research seems to supports a link between coat color and behavior.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

AgileGSD said:


> The majority of wGSDs I have met have been low drive and had less than stellar temperaments (shy, nervous, reactive, etc). The few I've met with sound temperaments were still pretty low drive and didn't seem to have proper GSD temperaments. I met a more even mix of GSDs, even BYB ones who have decent temperaments. I'm not saying it's due to the color but IME wGSDs do tend to have temperament problems. I suspect it's most likely due to wGSDs being bred for so long only as pets. FWIW though, research seems to supports a link between coat color and behavior.


Just curious, approximately how many have you met that enables you to come to this sweeping conclusion? Do you find them much different than the American show line GSDs?


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Makes sense as it limits the gene pool, a stellar working animal who may not pass the correct color (given that the color is made an important factor in breeding) will be over looked.

We do have a white GSD in our class doing protection work. She's quite the spitfire too....beautiful dog.

In general, hope this is not too off topic, but as I look at working line pedigrees (with pics) online I notice that they too have been transitioning in color. Seems like there used to be black/tan/red and bi-colors now it seems a lot of the working line dogs are one of the sable colors. For those who have been around these dogs for awhile is this a correct observation and if so just curious as to why?





GSDElsa said:


> <snipped>
> 
> CONSISTENTLY BREEDING FOR COLOR AS ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT FACTORS (rather than one of the least) WILL *ALWAYS* NEGATIVELY EFFECT THE END PRODUCT--NO MATTER WHAT THE LINE AND WHAT THE COLOR.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> In general, hope this is not too off topic, but as I look at working line pedigrees (with pics) online I notice that they too have been transitioning in color. Seems like there used to be black/tan/red and bi-colors now it seems a lot of the working line dogs are one of the sable colors.


 
You see a lot of sable WL dogs because sable is THE dominant color for GSD's, but you can only get a sable pattern if one of the parent's is sable. So working lines have ALWAYS been predominately sable because it is a dominant color. West German SL's virtually eliminated the sable pattern from the line by not breeding to them. If none of the lines ever bred with pattern and color in mind, the majority of all GSD's would be sable. However, there has definitely been a fad going on for a long time of breeding and marketing to the "black sable."


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

O.k. I was told that black/tan was the dominant color and when I go to the pedigree site to look at pictures there used to be more black/tan (it seems).

My Grandpa (Opa) pre WWII Germany had bicolors....which is the color pattern I happen to be the most attracted to, for some reason!

Thanks for the info. 



GSDElsa said:


> You see a lot of sable WL dogs because sable is THE dominant color for GSD's, but you can only get a sable pattern if one of the parent's is sable. So working lines have ALWAYS been predominately sable because it is a dominant color. West German SL's virtually eliminated the sable pattern from the line by not breeding to them. If none of the lines ever bred with pattern and color in mind, the majority of all GSD's would be sable. However, there has definitely been a fad going on for a long time of breeding and marketing to the "black sable."


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Nope, B/T is the second most dominant. Here's a couple websites I just googled that have some of the color genetics explained:

Ehret German Shepherds - Breeding Announcements

And a thread from this forum:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/genetic-issues/88941-color-genetics.html


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

I am not making a generalization but I just happened to be chatting with a guy the other day who was admiring my dog and he said he once owned a GSD, a white one. They had to 'get rid of it' when the shepherd cornered him and his wife in their home.
I don't know any more details and, once again, I am making no generalizations .... that was just one dog.
I 'interviewed' a white shepherd once for possible rescue and was told that she has a
high prey drive and can't be around cars/traffic (she chased them), small kids or other dogs.
That was over 2 years ago and I believe she is still looking for a home.
I don't attribute her problems to being white.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

If I recall....as it was awhile ago, it was a GSD rescue person I was chatting with about how to determine if a shelter/rescue dog was purebred or not, mentioned that B/T was the dominant. 

Thanks for the links!




GSDElsa said:


> Nope, B/T is the second most dominant. Here's a couple websites I just googled that have some of the color genetics explained:
> 
> Ehret German Shepherds - Breeding Announcements
> 
> ...


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

A LOT of mixed breeds are black and tan - I wouldn't go by that alone to determine if the dog is pure bred.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

arycrest said:


> Just curious, approximately how many have you met that enables you to come to this sweeping conclusion? Do you find them much different than the American show line GSDs?


 I guess enough that I couldn't even guess? It's not a "sweeping conclusion as much as it's an impression I have. It doesn't mean I don't think wGSDs are fine dogs, they just don't _tend_ to be what I want in a GSD. My impression of Amlines is that their temperaments can be all over the place, even within one litter. Often, neither wGSDs or Amlines are being bred with a lot of specific temperament traits as a priority or if they are, it isn't traits I personally associate with a proper GSD temperament.


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## zayner94 (Jan 18, 2013)

*Someone who has had experience with Whites her entire life*



AgileGSD said:


> The majority of wGSDs I have met have been low drive and had less than stellar temperaments (shy, nervous, reactive, etc). The few I've met with sound temperaments were still pretty low drive and didn't seem to have proper GSD temperaments. I met a more even mix of GSDs, even BYB ones who have decent temperaments. I'm not saying it's due to the color but IME wGSDs do tend to have temperament problems. I suspect it's most likely due to wGSDs being bred for so long only as pets. FWIW though, research seems to supports a link between coat color and behavior.


 
OMG what a bunch of hog wash, good lord, do you own any white's do you know a lot of people who own whites..Well I do, and when you say they have a bad temperment because they have been bred to be pets, how stupid does that sound, if they were bred to be pets, then they should be better than the typical black and tan shepherd..Whites are awesome, have less genetic health problems, make excellent family pets, and are uber loyal. Check out this article about a blk and tan shepherd www.dailymail.co.uk/.../*Girl*-*13*-sav*age*d-*German*-*shepherd*-puppy-tore-...‎ Tore is owners nose off...Not a white..
There is good and bad in any color einstein..Do your research before you yap off about things you obviously know nothing about..I have owned White's my entire life and have never owned an aggresive bad tempered White..Blk and tans can be skittish too, usually it's the females in any color, more territorial..Makes sense...So again, educate yourself before you speak on a subject that you are ignorant about..


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Way to resurrect a 2 yo thread. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

> I do, and when you say they have a bad temperment because they have been bred to be pets, how stupid does that sound,


It doesn't sound stupid for me. Breeding non-agressive lines is quite a recent issue (50-70 years) and is a catastrophy for all the breeds. Not only non-agressive dogs lack intelligence in comparison to originally bred working lines, together with loosing their predatory drive they started to show unexpected qualities. Some dogs are too shy, some dogs are too self-protective and nervous, and some are complete maniacs about something like balls, want nothing, see or hear nothing but the ball. White GSD cannot compete with GSD on the same training ground, they are different dogs, I've watched enough of them


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

I've owned and known quite a few WGSDs over the years (I'm the co-founder of the White German Shepherd Dog Club of America and have had exposure to numerous well bred WGSDs from various kennels all over the US and Canada). IMHO there's a huge difference when comparing a well bred GSD _of any color, including white_, vs GSDs that come from indiscriminate/BYB type breedings.

I've personally had the pleasure of owning 14 GSDs over the years, 8 white and 6 colored, from various breeders around the US and Canada while my sister has owned GSDs for as almost as long as I have (40some years) ... hers have come from German lines bred in the US or Germany, and we've both ended up with wonderful, loyal, intelligent dogs capable of learning whatever we asked of them. To be honest, I did have one GSD with a hereditary problem (via his sire) who was able to overcome his issues with training.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I hate to add to this ancient thread, but I have to say that the only white GSDs I've ever met were nervous nellies. They were very sweet and obedient with their owners and those they know, but seemed to lack confidence around unfamiliar surroundings or people. Unfortunately, I have not had the pleasure of meeting any well-bred whites--only those from BYBs, and BYB GSDs of any color tend to have temperament problems.

One thing I have noticed in the whites I've met is that they are pretty non-aggressive. Are there any white GSDs in the US that have SchH titles?


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## icanhike (Jan 7, 2012)

Can't believe the misinformation here about WGSDs. Yes I have one. Here's the thing...German Shepherd Dogs have always come in a variety of colors, including the occasional recessive white color (which is actually a masking gene on another chromosome, so not really a color). The white dogs born of these litters have the same genetic make-up and therefore the same genetic disposition of their "colored" littermates. Two things confound this. 

1) The Nazi's declared the white dogs inferior and tried to exterminate them. Since the 30's breeders have routinely and artificially selected for bitches and sires that do not carry the recessive masking genes. Over time then, there may be differences in the genetic disposition of the lines that do not have white dogs vice the lines that do, because there may be other genes on the same chromosome that are unintentionally getting deselected in the process. 

2) Some well-meaning breeders got together and decided that white shepherds were being unfairly discriminated against and they started promoting the breed by only breed dogs that express the recessive gene...meaning only white dogs. This means all white litter lines may have certain dispositions that are unintentionally selected for that reside on the same chromosome as the masking gene. 

So, in short, WGSDs that come from "normal" color litters have the same chance of being skittish or aggressive as their colored brothers and sister, but dogs that come from breeders that purposefully select for or against the white color are altering the disposition of those lines. 

Clear as mud? My WGSD is awesome BTW.


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## NormanF (Apr 14, 2013)

The German SV's stand against the white color in the GSD breed is based on provincial prejudice, not sound science.

They can't explain what makes the dog undesirable. So they legislate against the color, contrary to Max Von Stephanitz's intentions.

There is a lot of prejudice and ignorance coming from people who've never met these beautiful dogs. And the SV does its part to foster it.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

NormanF said:


> There is a lot of prejudice and ignorance coming from people who've never met these beautiful dogs. And the SV does its part to foster it.


I've changed my mind on this subject so many times it makes my head spin. I think their reasons for eliminating the whites was wrong, but they get credit for not registering dogs they believed were a detriment to the breed. It makes more sense than registering them, at least to me. 

Obviously the dogs, regardless of what we call them today, White Shepherds, Berger Blanc Suisse, GSD have found their place in the world and they aren't going away anytime soon. Maybe the recessive gene for white comes with a survivor gene.


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