# Sloping Backs?



## mosul210

Hey folks do all GSDs have a sloping back or is that a breeders trait?


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## Jack's Dad

They don't all have sloping backs but this could be an interesting thread.


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## DunRingill

Oh goodie I can tell my weird story.....

an older woman (dobe person) who comes to watch my dog training class insisted recently that the show line GSDs have a special surgery done to make them look "like that." She said that several vertebrae are removed to give them "the slope." No matter what we said, she insisted she knew this was true because her vet told her so.


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## Freestep

American show lines tend to have an exaggerated slope to the back when posed a certain way. It's actually not the back that is sloped, but the way the hindquarters are angulated and posed that makes the back appear to slope downward.

German show lines also have it to a degree.

Working line GSDs tend not to have overly angulated hindquarters, and so their backs appear straighter when in a show pose.


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## 4TheDawgies

I can make all of my dogs including my pitbull have a "sloped back" when you stack them extremely. All of those dogs have straight backs when standing square...

Just because a dog has rear angulation in a stacked photo does not mean that's how the dog always looks. 

My favorite example of this is someone telling me they liked one of my dogs, even wanted a puppy from it. (was viewing photos of the dog hanging out an playing) then said they didn't like "another" one of my dogs as much because of the rear angulation shown in a stack photo. I loved telling them it was the same dog. They were so shocked LOL


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## Rua

Not to deviate from the original question, but why do people stack their dogs?? Why exaggerate the sloping look?


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## DianaM

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=370489
German working line.

V Jabina Haig - German Shepherd Dog
German/Belgian working line. (sorry, should have caught the LOSH registrations on the first post..)

VA1 (USA) Titan vom Mittelwest - German Shepherd Dog
German show line.

SG Tom z Pohranicni Straze - German Shepherd Dog
Czech working line.

V CH (US) Neumann's Jim - German Shepherd Dog
East German working line.

AOE SELECT EX. CH. Kismet's Sight For Sore Eyes - German Shepherd Dog
American show line.

Different regions, different purposes, different standard (the AKC standard differs from the rest of the world's GSD standard and the rest of the world pretty much follows one of the working line types or the German show line types). Each have their own average personality, drive, type, etc. What is correct and what is incorrect is the subject of near bloody debate.


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## 4TheDawgies

Rua said:


> Not to deviate from the original question, but why do people stack their dogs?? Why exaggerate the sloping look?


It is to visualize the conformation and potential ability of the dog to effectively use it's rear legs to drive the body in the trot for a flying trot. in a stack photo you can see a weak loin, weak pasterns, poor angulation etc. It's not just abou tooling at the back slope. Seeing a dog through conformation eye glasses while looking at a stack photo can tell you a lot about a dogs entire body and proportions. 

Obviously photos or watching the dog in motion is a better tell of the dogs structure to see how it's actually applied. But the stack is to view the structure in pause to evaluate thing like length and angle of croup, length of stifle and turf stifle, etc.

It's easier to evaluate and pick apart individual parts of a dog when it's still


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## mosul210

I think I read some where that the sloping back attributed to hip dysplasia? Does anyone know if this is a myth, or factual statement?


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## Freestep

mosul210 said:


> I think I read some where that the sloping back attributed to hip dysplasia? Does anyone know if this is a myth, or factual statement?


Myth.


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## msvette2u

mosul210 said:


> I think I read some where that the sloping back attributed to hip dysplasia? Does anyone know if this is a myth, or factual statement?


Complete and utter myth.
If it was true, Golden Retrievers, Labs and Pugs would never get dysplasia. And they are some of the highest dogs with incidents of it.

We have a senior PomxPoodle foster w/dysplasia. I am not about to do hip x-rays but you can see she has it and she has limited ROM back there.


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## PaddyD

Well, my straight back ASL has a sloped back when she self-stacks and when she moves. Her back isn't rounded or humped or roached like GSLs. It is straight. When it slopes it is still straight, on a slope. Her back is solid, it doesn't flex when she moves. When people see her move all they say is OMG.


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## BlackthornGSD

There's plenty of nice GSDs out there that have non-slopey toplines... they're just not the ones in the showring.


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## Chicagocanine

Those dogs do not seem to be stacked the same as others though. I mean the positioning of the back legs seems different (not as far back/forward), which would make the dog look more or less sloped depending on the stacking position wouldn't it?


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## cliffson1

Allowing handlers to stack dogs has been one of the most detrimental things that have proliferated to this breed. It is not natural or necessary to evaluate whether a dog is correct. It has led to extremes that have severely compromised the essence of the breed. If a judge can't evaluate a dog for structure free standing....he/she have no business with a judging liscense. It is actually decieving from my point of view.
One last thing, the dog does nothing of value in a handler assisted stack,(in terms of work, play, lounge, anything....no practical use)....so why should we want to see it anyway except for cosmetic purposes.


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## BlackthornGSD

Chicagocanine said:


> Those dogs do not seem to be stacked the same as others though. I mean the positioning of the back legs seems different (not as far back/forward), which would make the dog look more or less sloped depending on the stacking position wouldn't it?


No, they're not "stacked out" --but that back hock is perpendicular to the ground in most of those pics--this is a "natural" stack and is closer to how the dogs used to be stacked. 

VA1 Bodo v Lierburg - born 1962









VA1 Veus vd Starrenburg (b. 1958)









VA1 Alf v Nordfelson (b. 1949)


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## PaddyD

The ASL slope is a straight back with stretched and angulated hingquarters.
The GSL slope is from curvature of the spine plus angulation.


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## robinhuerta

Now Cliff....you know I love a nice "stand" picture of a dog.....but I will *agree*, an exaggerated positioning is not only unnecessary....it is a disservice to the dog itself.

Stacking a dog is *not* an absolute requirement for anything....other than allowing the "viewer" to see the dog.....the biggest problem is....most people don't know what they are *looking at or for*....and neither do some judges.
Today...most "stacked pictures" are for pure aesthetic pleasure......and honestly, I love a nice stand photo......natural or placed.


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## lhczth

No sloping topline in a stack.










Slight over stack, slight curve to topline. 










I actually did not stack her for this. Told her to stay and threw the ball.


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## Vandal

The simple way to explain the sloped back is related to what Paddy just said. It is not the back, it is the length and curvature of the rear leg. If you look at the stifle of the dogs shown in this thread, you will see a distinct difference in the rear legs. The most angulated dogs will have a leg that is so long, it almost resembles the leg of a kangaroo. Where the bottom half of the stifle actually runs parallel to the ground when the dog is stacked. The German Show line has some other issues going on with the back now, but that "slope" people are talking about is not about the back.


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## Andaka

Or they can look like this:



















But even the ones with the sloping backs can do things:


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## Emoore

AKC standard: Topline-- The withers are higher than and sloping into the level back. The back is straight, very strongly developed without sag or roach, and relatively short


FCI standard: The back, including the loins, is straight and strongly developed yet not too long between the withers and the croup. The withers must be long and high, sloping slightly from front to rear, defined against the back into which it gently blends without breaking the topline.


So the AKC standard, when addressing the topline, includes the words "sloping" and "level." The FCI standard uses the words "sloping" and "straight."

The reason we have different types of conformation is because (1) There are two different written standards which are slightly different, and (2) people have different interpretations of the written standard(s). 

Also, a lot of people who claim to sell "straight backed" GSDs are actually selling dogs that are butt-high and swaybacked. Nowhere does it say the croup should be higher than the withers, yet some breeders sell dogs with high croups to people who want a straight-backed dog.


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## Vandal

What you posted there concerning sloping is about the withers, not the back.


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## Emoore

Vandal said:


> What you posted there concerning sloping is about the withers, not the back.


I agree but I think it's all gotten mixed up in there together. I believe it also says in one that the withers should be higher than the croup, which might contribute to the perception of a sloping back.


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## cliffson1

I think in order to assess whether the back is straight or sloped, the dog has to be standing on the pasterns of all four feet, and the dog should be standing natural. In other words I need the dog to be like Lisa's dog when she through the ball. No human manipulation....then I can judge for myself what I see in the back.


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## martemchik

Andaka...just a question about the first picture...is that dog really stacked that the back right leg has the hock on the ground? And the back is perfectly level in that picture! I'm amazed. I usually see pictures with the hock almost on the ground, or dogs that do walk with the hock an inch or two with the hock off the ground, but I've never seen one that can comfortably be stacked like that. Can you elaborate on how that happens? And is that even correct?


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## Andaka

I taught her to stand that way from the time she was little. It is as correct as any other stack. I was trying to give her a little more slope to her topline, which obviously didn't work!

That bitch ended up with a CDX and a PT before i placed her in a great home with a teacher of special needs children. She would go to class with her and helped to calm the children.


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## robinhuerta

We were training today, and we decided to take a couple pics of Ivan.
The pics I am posting are to simply exhibit the "illusion" that a bad picture can create....and what the dog actually looks like.

Here is picture number one:
Handler "stacks" dog, and pushes on inner hind quarter...(on purpose)...gives an "illusion" of curvature....
*







*

Picture number two......dog just standing after *photos*...without the assistance of a handler. This dog does not have "curvature" in the back. He DOES have a higher, far lay back of the shoulder.....so he is higher at the wither, and lower at the croup.
*Again...just a couple of demo pics...nothing more.*


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## RocketDog

DianaM said:


> V Hannes vom Spadener Holz - German Shepherd Dog
> German working line.
> 
> V Jabina Haig - German Shepherd Dog
> German/Belgian working line. (sorry, should have caught the LOSH registrations on the first post..)
> 
> *VA1 (USA) Titan vom Mittelwest - German Shepherd Dog
> German show line.
> *
> SG Tom z Pohranicni Straze - German Shepherd Dog
> Czech working line.
> 
> V CH (US) Neumann's Jim - German Shepherd Dog
> East German working line.
> 
> AOE SELECT EX. CH. Kismet's Sight For Sore Eyes - German Shepherd Dog
> American show line.
> 
> Different regions, different purposes, different standard (the AKC standard differs from the rest of the world's GSD standard and the rest of the world pretty much follows one of the working line types or the German show line types). Each have their own average personality, drive, type, etc. What is correct and what is incorrect is the subject of near bloody debate.


I have a question related to this thread:

The bolded dog, Titan, is Rocket's sire, so this was doubly interesting to me. When Rocket walks, he often walks looking like his back is "roached". When I try to get him to stretch out and stack a bit, and press his fur down (LOL) it does not appear that the area, in the middle of his back, is higher than his withers. But it's concerning to me, as I'm wondering if he is an example of a "roached" back.  So I guess I'm wondering, is he?


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## cliffson1

Robin, that is a very informative picture....I happen to know that if a lot of the German SL dogs were NOT stacked they would not have the roach. Just as if many ASL dogs werent put in a stance with one hock on ground, the sloped back wouldn't be so pronounced......but many people judge dogs by pictures seen...you can tell by listening to them.
In both situations I think the stance is misleading. JMO


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## robinhuerta

Cliff...I agree...the "stance" can be misleading.
Another reason that I love when people actually have the opportunity to meet the dogs in question.....
We had a small group today at training of both WL enthusiasts and SL enthusiasts.
It was quite educational in that....the WL owners "actually" had the opportunity to "assist" in taking the pictures of the dogs.
They were able to *see* the illusions given in photographs.......a very nice reality check, and a great learning tool to be a part of.
We were able to simulate the appearances on BOTH WL & SL.
It was a fun day!


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## Ramage

Great pics Robin


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## Chicagocanine

That's interesting! I thought of posting some of my photos to show the difference in stacked vs. just standing in a somewhat stack-type stance...but I only attempted stacking once and it didn't turn out very good!


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## Andaka

Like this?


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## cliffson1

Exactly Daphne, the first picture is the way the JUDGES should demand that the handlers exhibit the dog. No human physical human manipilation into a stance. Actually teaching a dog to go into a stance on its own with the handler at the Front of the leash and not crouched beside the dog will actuallt demonstrate confidence better, and not let people hide flaws both physical and mental. 
Shoot if a Sch three dog can come into a stance from a run without people handling them, then certainly it should be easy to have sound dogs walk into a nice honest stance. Afterall, isn't that what we're trying to find out about the dog....the honesty/soundness of structure?????


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## DianaM

Robin, those are great photos. Thanks for taking the time to take and post them. They are very illustrative of the fact that stacks can make all the difference in perception and why it is important to see a dog move and stand itself to get a more accurate picture of the dog's true structure.

Even when the showline dogs are stacked on their own (standing like a normal dog as opposed to an art noveau sculpture), there are definite differences in angles in the rear legs. 

I'm going to ask a question that may be stupid: are the rear legs longer in, say, some of the American showline dogs than some of the working line dogs? Maybe my eyes are deceiving me, but it seems like the American showlines have a bit more leg that allows them to stand with a straight back and yet have all these nice angles. When my dog's back is level, his legs go almost straight down like a rollercoaster drop. I feel if he had some more leg, I could get him to stack like a showline. Now maybe I am totally off my rocker... or am I seeing the "length in stifle" that gets talked about?


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## Xeph

American show lines have more rear. The upper thigh is generally much longer than that of working lines.


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## Packen

Quality can be assessed by the dog's true accomplishments, I don't mean midnight trials in Germany lol.


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## Chicagocanine

As I said I don't have any really good stacked photos but here are a few of Bianca where you can see quite a difference depending on the pose--


Here is Bianca (when she was younger) stacked by her previous owner:











And doing a stack-type natural stance (sorta) on her own:









(sorry about the harness vest covering part of her, this was the best pic I could find where she was "posing" on her own.)



And here she is in my bad attempt to stack her (poorly) myself:


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## MaggieRoseLee

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breed-standard/102718-angulation-why.html

more info on the above thread...


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## DianaM

Thanks, Xeph. Also, thank you for that link, MRL. I do remember that thread. That was helpful.


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## robinhuerta

I love *Midnight Trials*.....I try to attend as many as I possibly can......so nice to go to a place where I can feel comfortable just wearing PJs....and the dogs love it too.....no pesky Sun to shine in their eyes...
I plan on attending another couple in just a few weeks...._good greif...:tongue:_


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## Emoore

robinhuerta said:


> I love *Midnight Trials*.....I try to attend as many as I possibly can......so nice to go to a place where I can feel comfortable just wearing PJs....and the dogs love it too.....no pesky Sun to shine in their eyes......._good greif...:tongue:_


Well, it's a quick and easy getaway too. Board a plane to Germany with hubby, take a dog or two in your luggage, see the sights, go to some midnight trials, eat some bratwurst. . . .wonder if they have them for agility?


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## robinhuerta

I'm sure they do! I hear they have them for just about anything now......
*Flyball *(gotta be-careful....hard to catch without light)....*Dock Diving...(*at night they use lifeguards now)....*Herding....(*easier...the sheep are fast alseep)....OH...and don't forget ...*Search & Rescue....(*they just have the person stand where they are, after all...who can see them right?)......GRACIOUS GOD.....I just laugh about this stuff now....


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## LARHAGE

Lol!!!


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