# Use of AI in breeding



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

How common is artificial insemination in breeding dogs and why would you choose that over natural breeding?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Pretty common. The breeders I know don't "choose" it over natural. They choose it because the male is not physically available when it's time to breed.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I heard it is the preferred method of many conformation breeders of other random breeds such as Poodles or Collies.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

At the facility where I work they’ve used it most commonly for international studs, less often for solid producers that are deceased, and on rare occasions, for young studs that have “performance anxiety”...


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I heard it is the preferred method of many conformation breeders of other random breeds such as Poodles or Collies.


Did say why those two breeds?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Those were two of the breeds mentioned. They claimed all breeders use breeding stands and AI only.They entered the conversation because they were of the Shop, Don't Adopt crowd and also belonged to a breed preservationist group. I can support both of those things but when they touted that they took all breedings into their own hands and never gave their dogs an opportunity to breed, I found their behavior in direct conflict with their words. How do you preserve breeds that can't or won't breed, or should you even try?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> Did say why those two breeds?


They said all breeders.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I used it for a breeding when the male was across the country. Shipping has become difficult. The female was bred naturally for her second breeding.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

These people were talking about AI with their own dogs living in the same household.


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## Kathrynil (Dec 2, 2019)

LuvShepherds said:


> How common is artificial insemination in breeding dogs and why would you choose that over natural breeding?


I believe AI is cheaper as well. I know that for horses they do it for distance and money reasons. I didn't know they did it for dogs, but it makes sense, especially if the stud is cross country/countries. It's more convenient to have it shipped then to go there.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

A fellow with a pup out of Karma and Mufasa (my breeding), wanted to breed his bitch and gave me a call. I convinced him to wait until she was two and to call me. I had a young male that was not related. His bitch was in heat and he brought her out. My boy had had one successful breeding at that point, and didn't think it would be an issue. 

The bitch turned into a noodle. When she wasn't trying to kill him, she was laying on her back showing her belly. We tried for a while, and then I told him to come back in two days. We tried again. Come back in two days, we tried again. I suggested progesterone testing. But offered to have him come back in two days. Both of us work full time, but we were trying. Finally the day I had to put Ninja down, I told him to take my dog. Bring him back in two days. Make an appt. at Animal Clinic Northview and if the progesterone test says she is ready, then have them AI her. He did all that. And when he got them to his house, within half an hour, they were tied. 

There is nothing wrong with AI. But if it has to be done, if dogs cannot breed naturally, or have puppies naturally without C-sections as a breed-thing, I don't see the issue. I guess some breeds with narrow hips and large heads routinely need C-sections to whelp. I've heard some can't mate naturally either, but I don't know how true that is.


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## Jorski (Jan 11, 2019)

I know that my breeder has one bitch that has had a few litters and he said she just won't breed naturally, so they have always done AI with her. It happens.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Mostly out of convenience and availability of the male also many don’t want to send their female long distances if need be. Some want to try hoping to ensure pregnancy if dogs had missed breedings in the past it is option that they may wish to try. Some choose frozen semen for dogs who have passed on years and years ago.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I have an extremely strong - in every way, physically, mentally, libido - male. He has done multiple live breedings and gets the job done very effectively. When the female has been squirrelly, did not seem ready (owner did not want to incur expense of progestrone) or has had repro problems, it is off to the repro vet we go. Two females we tried to breed had serious prior repro problems and did not carry pups to term, others bred AI got litters. There is an advantage to a TCI in being able to evaulate the quality of the semen and the repro tract of the female.

Lee


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## KarmaPuppy (Nov 22, 2019)

for some breeds that's the only way to actually get the female pregnant. Perfect example are our english bullies.. they tend to be so top heavy, and their hind legs are so short, that mounting and locking just isn't possible MOST of the time. We had our original female AI'ed at the vet for like $100 (on top of the stud fee). The stud's owner brought him there, the vet took them into the back room, i read a magazine in the waiting area, and boom out they came.


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## Kyrielle (Jun 28, 2016)

selzer said:


> There is nothing wrong with AI. But if it has to be done, if dogs cannot breed naturally, or have puppies naturally without C-sections as a breed-thing, I don't see the issue. I guess some breeds with narrow hips and large heads routinely need C-sections to whelp. I've heard some can't mate naturally either, but I don't know how true that is.


This kind of thing tells me that some breeds need their standards seriously adjusted if they are incapable of mating/birthing naturally. One that comes to mind is the English Bulldog, which used to look more like this "new" bulldog breed: Olde English Bulldogge - Wikipedia. Any breed should be capable of reproducing on its own accord. Makes me sad that that's not the case.

And when I say "birthing", I mean giving birth normally outside of an emergency during pregnancy--should not require a C-section on a routine basis in other words.


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## Kathrynil (Dec 2, 2019)

Kyrielle said:


> This kind of thing tells me that some breeds need their standards seriously adjusted if they are incapable of mating/birthing naturally. One that comes to mind is the English Bulldog, which used to look more like this "new" bulldog breed: Olde English Bulldogge - Wikipedia. Any breed should be capable of reproducing on its own accord. Makes me sad that that's not the case.
> 
> And when I say "birthing", I mean giving birth normally outside of an emergency during pregnancy--should not require a C-section on a routine basis in other words.


I know. I knew a lady who owned several English bulldogs, and she was first one to tell me that. It is pretty odd.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Kyrielle said:


> This kind of thing tells me that some breeds need their standards seriously adjusted if they are incapable of mating/birthing naturally. One that comes to mind is the English Bulldog, which used to look more like this "new" bulldog breed: Olde English Bulldogge - Wikipedia. Any breed should be capable of reproducing on its own accord. Makes me sad that that's not the case.
> 
> And when I say "birthing", I mean giving birth normally outside of an emergency during pregnancy--should not require a C-section on a routine basis in other words.


I have to stand with you on this. When a breed becomes that extreme, it is time for breeders to rethink what they have done.

And for these breeders choosing to use AI with their females with never giving nature a chance to take its course, how does one know what genetics are being passed on sexually? Shouldn't the whole dog be a large part of the breeding plan? I have to wonder if these breeders are letting their puppy buyers know that they don't know if a puppy sold can produce naturally based on the genetics of the parents. 

I am not talking AI from a deceased dog or one not readily available but breeders who do this as a matter of choice instead of natural.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Do breeders allow the female to choose the male they want to breed with? Maybe if a female is not cooperative she has an instinctive knowledge it’s not a good idea. Has anyone tried a reluctant female with a different stud to see if the accepts that dog?


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

LuvShepherds said:


> Do breeders allow the female to choose the male they want to breed with? Maybe if a female is not cooperative she has an instinctive knowledge it’s not a good idea. Has anyone tried a reluctant female with a different stud to see if the accepts that dog?


The first thought that comes too mind for me is a golden retriever female that had been bred before with zero issues. When they took her to a different stud she was not willing at all and while they did get a successful mating only one puppy survived, has health issues, and there had to be a c-section. 

I read an interesting article on humans and how scents may play an unconscious role. I also believe it may be an issue with zoo animals in that they may not want to mate with the one selected for them. 

My female when she was in heat was 100% willing to try with our neutered male dog. The stray male dog that showed up while she didn't reject him she was going to make him work for it and do a courtship first. My roommates dog will flag and actively pursue and pester any other dog. She thinks my spayed female would make a great father...


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Funny. She’s confused. Fortunately you won’t get puppies out of those combinations.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

LuvShepherds said:


> Funny. She’s confused. Fortunately you won’t get puppies out of those combinations.


Haha I don't think I'd say confused, think she's just a floozy! I'm hoping my roommate gets her spayed, she's gone through 2 false pregnancies her last two heats and I've had to milk her as she gets mastitis from how much milk she produces. I'm worried about pyometra risk as she is getting to be an older dog. (The only reason she hasn't gotten pregnant is because there aren't any intact males nearby, aside from my new pup. She's been visisted by many neutered suitors though.)

My poor friend before she spayed her gal the dog would flag any male she met when in heat, which tended to be humans so that was a bit awkward for her. Thankfully most people don't know that behavior so they figured she was just friendly and wanted butt scratches. First time I've ever heard of a dog doing that though.

I really in general though only support the use of AI in cases where it's hard to get the male and female in the same area vs. in replacement to mating. (Exclusive to dogs, I fully support it in livestock species. Hopefully in cattle sexed semen picks up and can become more affordable.) Although huh, I wonder if that would be something anybody would be interested in for dogs. Ensuring a litter would be all male or all female. (The puppy mill thought of that actually just kind of terrified me. Imagine puppy millers just pumping out tons of females.)

I do know one breeder nice folks but they kept trying to breed this poor pug. The male wouldn't naturally breed so they AI-ed the female. She ended up with a prolapse, they AI-ed her again and some complication not due to the AI resulted in her dying. That's and using it for breeds that can't naturally breed is my experience and I do not support that so it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

One thing to think about is what other things might we lose if we breed dogs who lack the instinct to mate? There might be other factors that make that a negative thing that we simply might not know about yet. And other behaviors such as bitches refusing to mate, how does that translate into their mothering instincts? Do those females tend be poor mothers?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

working dog breeders should be discerning in the pairing of the pedigree...so allowing the bitch to choose her male is not something that happens because breeders spend lots of time deciding on who they are going to use. I think progesterone testing is being done routinely now, seldom do breeders let dogs just be together for several days until the female is ready. 
It also depends on the difference in size of the dogs...some females are not very large in structure compared to males so natural ties are difficult. There are so many variables that play into breeding, yet the oops litters seem to always have lots of pups and the owner never suspected their female would ever get pregnant!


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## KarmaPuppy (Nov 22, 2019)

Kyrielle said:


> This kind of thing tells me that some breeds need their standards seriously adjusted if they are incapable of mating/birthing naturally. One that comes to mind is the English Bulldog, which used to look more like this "new" bulldog breed: Olde English Bulldogge - Wikipedia. Any breed should be capable of reproducing on its own accord. Makes me sad that that's not the case.
> 
> And when I say "birthing", I mean giving birth normally outside of an emergency during pregnancy--should not require a C-section on a routine basis in other words.


Bullies do try to mate on their own. We let our stud try for a weekend before doing AI.. He tried many of times, but came up 'short' on the connection if you get my drift. Heights play a roll big time when mating english bulldogs..

as for the last comment.. what's the difference in an a c-section for a dog, and a c-section for a human? both are 'unnatural' but required if you want to save the off-spring and/or the mother. (didn't take offense or anything.. just pointing something out). English Bullies, like humans, CAN give birth naturally, but you risk losing the litter and possibly the female as well. The c-section is just highly encouraged by vets for the safety of the litter and the female.


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## Katsugsd (Jul 7, 2018)

LuvShepherds said:


> Has anyone tried a reluctant female with a different stud to see if the accepts that dog?


I have heard of one female that refused to be mounted, and actually turned aggressive, with one male (2nd litter - preformed an AI). With another male (3rd litter) totally she was okay and willing to do a natural breeding. It was interesting to hear.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Aside from the offshoot about what breeds should exist, as others stated there maybe several reasons. Distance, an unwilling or aggressive bitch, it's also a bit more of a sure bet. When a human couple is having reproductive issues AI is one of the first things they try before more drastic and expensive measures. 

My dog is an AI puppy. His mother never knew his father. I am not sure if we are going to tell him when he is grown.


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## KarmaPuppy (Nov 22, 2019)

CometDog said:


> Aside from the offshoot about what breeds should exist, as others stated there maybe several reasons. Distance, an unwilling or aggressive bitch, it's also a bit more of a sure bet. When a human couple is having reproductive issues AI is one of the first things they try before more drastic and expensive measures.
> 
> My dog is an AI puppy. His mother never knew his father. I am not sure if we are going to tell him when he is grown.


are you going to tell him he's adopted??! lol


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Just an observation as I have one bitch currently coming out of standing heat. She attacked every male that came near her, and these are known males one of which she was raised with as pups. However, as soon as I uncrated her to take her out, she made a beeline to my dominant male's crate, shoved her rear in his face and stood there flagging him making it quite clear she would stand for him. This particular bitch is also a more dominant bitch, more male like. I wonder if she viewed the other males as subordinates or inferior. 

I don't know what criteria dogs place on breeding choices but evidently some dogs are selective. Maybe breeders should explore that topic a little deeper. It might make for better breeding choices.


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## Kyrielle (Jun 28, 2016)

KarmaPuppy said:


> Bullies do try to mate on their own. We let our stud try for a weekend before doing AI.. He tried many of times, but came up 'short' on the connection if you get my drift. Heights play a roll big time when mating english bulldogs..


Then that's clearly a problem as the dog was incapable of mating because his legs are too short.



> as for the last comment.. what's the difference in an a c-section for a dog, and a c-section for a human? both are 'unnatural' but required if you want to save the off-spring and/or the mother. (didn't take offense or anything.. just pointing something out). English Bullies, like humans, CAN give birth naturally, but you risk losing the litter and possibly the female as well. The c-section is just highly encouraged by vets for the safety of the litter and the female.


Then that's clearly a problem as giving births shouldn't have that level of risk, nor should c-sections be recommended OR encouraged by anyone. A natural birth should not present a safety risk for the litter or a female.

Regarding dog vs human c-sections, yes, they are both unnatural and should be discouraged whenever possible. In the case of dogs, we have control over their genetic make up and physical characteristics. Thus, we have control over whether or not such risks are present in the first place. Hence my point.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

I worry over AI being used exclusively. It makes me think of Angelfish I had in the past. I bought a slew of them, let them pair up so I had a breeding pair and then sold the non-paired up Angels. The two I kept were absolutely beautiful. Great showpieces.

They tried continuously to breed. They would flirt and dance, the girl would lay, the male would fertilize and then they would guard and tend their eggs. It was awesome to watch. But at a certain point of the younglings growth, they’d eat their young. Every time. Sometimes one parent would try to stop the other but that was a losing battle. It was so sad to see.

The genetic ability to raise their own young had been bred out of the fish. In the wild, Angelfish are excellent parents. In captivity, the Angelfish breeders take the fertilized eggs out of the breeding pairs’ habitat and let the eggs develop without their parents. So as they bred, they had no idea if they were preserving the genetic ability to parent.

It’s such a horrible thing to have happened to the breed.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

CeraDean said:


> I worry over AI being used exclusively. It makes me think of Angelfish I had in the past. I bought a slew of them, let them pair up so I had a breeding pair and then sold the non-paired up Angels. The two I kept were absolutely beautiful. Great showpieces.
> 
> They tried continuously to breed. They would flirt and dance, the girl would lay, the male would fertilize and then they would guard and tend their eggs. It was awesome to watch. But at a certain point of the younglings growth, they’d eat their young. Every time. Sometimes one parent would try to stop the other but that was a losing battle. It was so sad to see.
> 
> ...


You might enjoy some of Temple Grandin's work. She talks about breeders breeding for specific traits, gaining those traits while losing others, usually at the expense of reproductive abilities or mental stability of the animal. She points out that such behaviors and traits have become so widespread that many people have come to view them as normal. They don't know that things are not the way they should be. The first step to fixing a problem is acknowledging and dentifying it and AI as a routine procedure prevents a breeder from knowing there is a problem.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

FYI - AI is not allowed in Germany for our breed.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> FYI - AI is not allowed in Germany for our breed.


You are right! I had forgotten that!


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