# Large old fashioned straight back German shepherd



## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

Is it wrong wanting to have one of these large GSD ??? I know its not really old fashioned cause they original ones were never that big. Also people say if the dog is Too big they may have health problem and i believe this goes to anything including human. Now what if the parents tested for DM free, certified OFA, etc


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Is it wrong to support breeders not breeding to the standard?


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Personally I have three issues:

Large - out of standard, the standard is there for a reason and I believe it should be adhered, not deliberately ignored 

Old fashioned - Total BS, the original GSD's have been proven many times over that they were not 110 lbs. + or softer in temperament

Straight back - You don't have to search far to see proof that angulation is natural to a GSD and stacking simply emplifies it. You can show two photos of a silouette of a GSD to someone - one stacked and one not and I pretty much guarantee they'll think they are two seperate dogs while in fact they are the same

Biggest problem, the idea that these types of dogs are somehow superior. Now that being said - a good dog is a good dog regardless. If that’s what you want, then do your research and stack the odds in your favour

JMO


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

90% of the dogs I see being touted as "Straight backed" are actually swaybacked- guess which is worse for the dog? 

Breeding for size over temperament is never a good thing. 

If you don't want a proper GSD, why get a GSD? Get a shiloh or a king.


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> Is it wrong to support breeders not breeding to the standard?


yes


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## Debanneball (Aug 28, 2014)

Ace GSD said:


> yes


Ace, appears you answered your question.....


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

Debanneball said:


> Ace, appears you answered your question.....


eh i know .. i just want a support to get one lol


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

get a rescue then!


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Ace GSD said:


> eh i know .. i just want a support to get one lol


Put it this way, I'd LOVE a blue GSD one day. I think they are really stunning but since the chances of me getting one from a good breeder are very slim as they don't deliberately breed for them I'm content to wait. Maybe one will pop up in a litter somewhere where all the i's are dotted and t's are crossed, or maybe one will pop up in a rescue.

Either way hopefully one day I'll get my blue but it will be in a way that my money never touches a BYB's bank account.


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> get a rescue then!


U know what i been thinking about that.


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

Shade said:


> Put it this way, I'd LOVE a blue GSD one day. I think they are really stunning but since the chances of me getting one from a good breeder are very slim as they don't deliberately breed for them I'm content to wait. Maybe one will pop up in a litter somewhere where all the i's are dotted and t's are crossed, or maybe one will pop up in a rescue.
> 
> Either way hopefully one day I'll get my blue but it will be in a way that my money never touches a BYB's bank account.


You know i have always wonder what qualifies as NOT BYB breeder ?? cause i have seen so many breeders with a website that test parents as OFA but ( not to sound mean at all just saying my opinion ) The dogs does not look nice at all in appearance and they dont even say if they are show line or working line, WG or american.. its almost like they just get few dogs and test them for Hips/elbow then breed them.


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

I would go for a rescue! My girl has a "straight" back (actually poor rear angulation) and is oversized, but not huge. There are many of these dogs in rescue.

Also some breeders do have large dogs with less angulation. There can be a lot of variation in a litter.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Ace GSD said:


> You know i have always wonder what qualifies as NOT BYB breeder ?? cause i have seen so many breeders with a website that test parents as OFA but ( not to sound mean at all just saying my opinion ) The dogs does not look nice at all in appearance and they dont even say if they are show line or working line, WG or american.. its almost like they just get few dogs and test them for Hips/elbow then breed them.


Again, JMO

That's why there's no clear cut line, you can't just say that an OFA test = great breeder. Or if they don't do a DM test, that's automatically rules them as a bad breeder. No dog is perfect, but where do they draw the line and nix a dog from their program

I'd rather focus on the dogs they're breeding and make my judgment from them. Do they honestly strive to breed the best of the best, what are their current dogs and progeny doing - LE, SAR, service dogs, agility, IPO? What is the goal of each breeding. What is the base of the temperaments of both parents- are they overprotective, are they lazy, are they hyper. How do they live in their daily lives, how is their trainability and ability to bond with the handler 

Everyone has their own list of what they're looking for. In the end, any dog is a chance - so stack the odds in your favour. If everything but one thing matches up, are you willing to overlook or is that a deal breaker


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Ace GSD said:


> Is it wrong wanting to have one of these large GSD ??? I know its not really old fashioned cause they original ones were never that big. Also people say if the dog is Too big they may have health problem and i believe this goes to anything including human. Now what if the parents tested for DM free, certified OFA, etc


People around here are going to tell you its wrong. I say go for the kind of dog you want. If I were to ever go to a breeder again I would go straight for a white GSD which people will also tell you is not in the standards. 



> Is it wrong to support breeders not breeding to the standard?


No!


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

But white shepherds have their own standard and used to be part of the breed. They have a history. There are some to die for white dogs from people who are actively working and showing them.

Nothing wrong with large dogs who have more of an old school look, but you should hold people breeding that type to the same ethical standards.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Actually...most people will just tell you to go with a breeder that tests their stock and has a clear goal of breeding that's not cosmetic. Unfortunately, most of your "large/old fashioned" and even white GSD breeders are only breeding them for cosmetic reasons. The dogs aren't worked in anything, aren't tested in anything, maybe will have the glorious CGC title which makes them something special I guess...

Has nothing to do with the way the dogs look is why people will tell you to stay away, it's mostly for temperament and working ability reasons that people will tell you to stay away. I could care less if your GSD is green, purple, blue, or yellow. If it works, it works. Unfortunately, when you start focusing on cosmetic reasons rather than temperament, you start to lose the reason behind the breed...sure, it looks like a GSD, but it doesn't act like one in the least bit.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Very strong opinions on this subject! I am going to take a radical stance as the owner of a oversized straight backed GSD and say get whatever dog you want.Do your research and get references from owners of dogs from the breeders you're interested in.Even more scandalous,I love unusual coat colors too.My boy comes from thoughtfully bred healthy lines.And he is not sway backed


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

dogma13 said:


> Very strong opinions on this subject! I am going to take a radical stance as the owner of a oversized straight backed GSD and say get whatever dog you want.Do your research and get references from owners of dogs from the breeders you're interested in.Even more scandalous,I love unusual coat colors too.My boy comes from thoughtfully bred healthy lines.And he is not sway backed


o yea id love to get my hand on a liver/white/blue GSD


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Hey Ace, the premise of your question makes me think you're possibly falling for internet nonsense. You live in an apartment, right? I really think for the time being you should concentrate on the dog you have and spend some time seeing, in person, as many different dogs in as many different venues as you can. 

Showline, working line, large, white, schutzhund,,,,,,, get out and see all of it and all of them.


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## ApselBear (Feb 10, 2014)

Standards are not the end all be all. Health and a well bred dog are. Someone out there is breeding the dog you want, whether you buy it or not. Find your dog and love it.

But definitely go with a proven healthy line with a breeder who actually loves providing a healthy dog.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Kaimeju said:


> But white shepherds have their own standard and used to be part of the breed. They have a history. There are some to die for white dogs from people who are actively working and showing them.
> 
> Nothing wrong with large dogs who have more of an old school look, but you should hold people breeding that type to the same ethical standards.


There are some beautiful white shepherds but who do you trust? Do you go for the Swiss Shepherd or the American White Shepherd. The SV if I understand correctly still doesn't allow any whites. For a normal pet person it is confusing as heck. I'd be tempted to go with the Berger Blanc Suisse just to avoid the German Shepherd label and breed bans. 

I think you find a breeder in your price range who is producing the dogs you like and who does the health testing you want. Or as others have said go the rescue route. But again with rescue you have to find one you trust and who has ethical standards. 

IMO there are no easy answers.


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

Steve Strom said:


> Hey Ace, the premise of your question makes me think you're possibly falling for internet nonsense. You live in an apartment, right? I really think for the time being you should concentrate on the dog you have and spend some time seeing, in person, as many different dogs in as many different venues as you can.
> 
> Showline, working line, large, white, schutzhund,,,,,,, get out and see all of it and all of them.


Yes i live in an apartment and tbh im kinda hestitant to get a second because i live in an apartment. But my dog is very well exercised and also i dont get working lines cause from my understanding they need more work. Im looking for mid-low drive but not to make it easier on me but so that i know for sure i can meet their needs. My 10 mos has 2 times exercise daily and 3 on my off day. It ranges from walk/run/fetch/pulls ( we play tug of war when its too wet outside) or even play time with neighbors puppy. Im open if anyone would like to share their experience if you ever own 2 dogs with about 1 year age difference.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

And another thing My GSD before Samson was white.They both had and have wonderful temperaments and were specifically bred to be medium energy companions not higher energy working dogs.I have no regrets.Both were/ are loving,protective,non aggressive companions.Ok now I'll get off my soapbox


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Ace GSD said:


> Yes i live in an apartment and tbh im kinda hestitant to get a second because i live in an apartment. But my dog is very well exercised and also i dont get working lines cause from my understanding they need more work. Im looking for mid-low drive but not to make it easier on me but so that i know for sure i can meet their needs. My 10 mos has 2 times exercise daily and 3 on my off day. It ranges from walk/run/fetch/pulls ( we play tug of war when its too wet outside) or even play time with neighbors puppy. Im open if anyone would like to share their experience if you ever own 2 dogs with about 1 year age difference.


2 dogs, that close in age could be a pita. Mine are 20mos and 5yrs, and its fine with a yard and kennels, in an apartment, they'd be a pita. They're both WL, and you can't generalize things the way you want to. You may like something that I hate, like low drive. My two may drive you nuts, but I enjoy them. You have to give yourself a chance to raise the one you have, and see the different dogs to make a good choice.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

And I'm not in any way knocking anyone's dogs. All I mean is that Ace needs to look around over time to make the right choices for himself.


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

Steve Strom said:


> And I'm not in any way knocking anyone's dogs. All I mean is that Ace needs to look around over time to make the right choices for himself.


i completely agree but this puppy fever lol anyways i have not make any deposit yet but im thinking maybe i can wait until winter.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

You're still rushing.


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## ApselBear (Feb 10, 2014)

Have you considered waiting until you get Ace past his "puppy stages"? At nearly a year old, your boy still has a major of his maturing to do. It's obviously a personal opinion type of concern, but I know I would like to have only one landshark at a time. I typically agree with Steve on the give it some time opinion.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

No, it isn't wrong to _want_ a large dog, or a large GSD. It is wrong to breed out of standard, and falsely claim that one is breeding the "original" dog, and then keep the dogs fat and out of shape to prove that one has bigger, larger dogs than anyone else and make false claims about the origin and working ability of such dogs. 

What I like, is the temperament, intelligence, drives, willingness to please, clear-headed seriousness in protection, amazing human bond, and gorgeous looks that a well-bred, carefully bred GSD is: bred with a purpose other than superficial size and looks. 

My GSD just turned out to be over standard, almost 90 lbs, and I'm finding that I really, really, really like having a big dog, which I never expected. Yet no way, NEVER would I go to a breeder whose main selling point is large size and prominently brags about how much their dogs weigh, as if that is the most desirable trait in a working breed. 

If you look around in rescue, it probably won't be hard to find a GSD that is the size you are looking for - goodness knows I have enough people commenting upon seeing Gryffon: "Gorgeous dog! I used to have a GSD when I was growing up. It was a _real_ German Shepherd! You know, 120lbs!". So considering the number of people I run into that used to have such large GSDs, should be very easy to find one available for adoption. You get your wish, and you help a dog in need.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

My pup will be 2 in April and there is NO WAY I would be ready for another any time soon. He consumes a lot of my time and energy just meeting his needs. I don't have a lot left over for another young dog. Between him, my 15 year old dog and my cat, I'm maxed out, and he takes around 80 percent of my animal time and attention when I'm home.

ETA: My dog doesn't look that big to me (I think he's right at the top of the standard height wise...maybe a bit over) and weighed 95 lbs at the vet last time we were there. He will probably add a few more lbs as he broadens out with maturity. He's 75/25 DDR/WGWL and his parents are normal sized. He is quite lean...he just has heavy bones and a huge head (that he still needs to grow into).


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

Two dogs is SO MUCH FREAKING WORK.

I live in a condo, AND have a SO to help me out, and I still am EXHAUSTED every single day because two GSD's have ALOT of energy that NEEDS to be burned off every single day. I take them out separately, to give them one on one time. They also don't 'tire each other out' and 'keep each other busy. 

Add in school, and a job..and managing the house, theres no free time left over for me. And my older GSD is 2.5. He still requires almost the same amount of work as the puppy. 

It is overwhelming, and you should seriously consider that and be ready before getting another dog.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Besides the added work, there's always the possibility that the 2 may not get along and need to be kept seperated. Not sure what the odds are regarding this, but it happens.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Castlemaid said:


> No, it isn't wrong to _want_ a large dog, or a large GSD. It is wrong to breed out of standard, and falsely claim that one is breeding the "original" dog, and then keep the dogs fat and out of shape to prove that one has bigger, larger dogs than anyone else and make false claims about the origin and working ability of such dogs.
> 
> What I like, is the temperament, intelligence, drives, willingness to please, clear-headed seriousness in protection, amazing human bond, and gorgeous looks that a well-bred, carefully bred GSD is: bred with a purpose other than superficial size and looks.
> 
> ...


 
Reread all of this!

Tons of lovely, big dogs in shelters who could use a great home. My male turned out oversized as well. 95lbs of trouble and he is from good lines. Mom was a ball of fire at 70lbs and an amazing working girl, dad was a dream at 80lbs. No one expected Bud to get this big. 
TBH I wouldn't want two dogs in an apartment at any age, never mind two youngsters. That just sounds like a headache.
If you like the big ones, check out Royalair. Not a BYB. But I would wait a while.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

funny, i am waiting on a gsd pup as i only want to have one pup in my house.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> check out Royalair. Not a BYB. .


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## sehrgutcsg (Feb 7, 2014)

Personally in my opinion defining "Standard" is going to be the difficult part. But, lets take a look from the beginning to present and see if somewhere we can make or choose a definition so we have a basis and a starting point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQXTTar58Wc&feature=youtube_gdata

About 1:00 minute you will see "Sieger" a well known example so can we all agree to start there > ? Then take into consideration, the changes made, Good Vs. Bad and walk the walk, so to speak. I am not a fan of severe angulation, but I am one person..


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

I'm on the two(especially so close in age) is a lot more work than one bandwagon. Tessa was just shy of 3 when we brought Della home last year. Life is good, we're glad we have her but I can't imagine having two without a backyard that we can go out into. Then add the volume of noise, and flying hair when they wrestle, it can get crazy.


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## Mikelia (Aug 29, 2012)

Castlemaid said:


> No, it isn't wrong to _want_ a large dog, or a large GSD. It is wrong to breed out of standard, and falsely claim that one is breeding the "original" dog, and then keep the dogs fat and out of shape to prove that one has bigger, larger dogs than anyone else and make false claims about the origin and working ability of such dogs.


This. 
Eli is 95lbs lean, he is a big boy. I love having a big male shepherd, I really do. I think he is gorgeous and I get a lot of compliments about him when I am out and I of course love that the world loves my big boy. He is from great, normal sized lines. Mom was on the small side, dad was at the top of the standard at 80lbs. He is straight backed, moderate angle, extremely athletic, medium drive. But his breeder did not breed to create a huge dog with a fancy name to make money. He just happened to keep growing. 
I also lived in a one bedroom basement apartment with four dogs, two of which were a year apart. It was a major PITA. Doeable, but major PITA. And the hair was everywhere! Keep in mind that in raising a puppy with another dog, the pup needs a lot of time separate from the other dog (I'm sure you've heard this time and time again on this board). In a small space that means your older dog is going to have to be kenneled more. And your older young dog still will need his own training time and exercise that a young puppy will not be able to come along for. This means you will have to kennel the pup more often than you want to. Trust me, you feel bad. 
By no means am I trying to say what you should do. I don't know you and god knows millions of people buy from non reputable breeders, raise the dogs all wrong and end up with fine dogs (sometimes lol). But I could not support unethical breeding and it is a major undertaking raising a puppy in an apartment with an adolescent dog. Just my two cents.


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## Zeusthegsd143 (Nov 24, 2014)

Personally Id love a large shepherd if I knew they were 100% health tested.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

sehrgutcsg said:


> Personally in my opinion defining "Standard" is going to be the difficult part. But, lets take a look from the beginning to present and see if somewhere we can make or choose a definition so we have a basis and a starting point.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQXTTar58Wc&feature=youtube_gdata
> 
> About 1:00 minute you will see "Sieger" a well known example so can we all agree to start there > ? Then take into consideration, the changes made, Good Vs. Bad and walk the walk, so to speak. I am not a fan of severe angulation, but I am one person..


You don't apply different definitions to the breed standard. Thats the problem. Every goofball having their own personal interpretation. Being living creatures, they aren't all going to exactly fit it, but you don't re-define it to match what you want. Its in print, just read it.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I have three GSD's that are large, and don't see the attraction to the larger structure. Or why someone would seek that out with this breed.
I love all my dogs, but being big isn't better, IMO.
My male is very agile and athletic, he is the one I train and work, but I know his size is detrimental in doing sport with him as he ages. 
Neither one of my females have that athleticism...can't do agility well or even herding...they'd be worn out as the endurance wouldn't last.
What is the attraction to a larger structure in a breed that is supposed to be 'medium size'? 
We can't always control genetics, but we should not breed for extremes in either direction as far as structure goes. I know the trend seems to be going to very small dogs for agility or other sport...that isn't good either.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Sunflowers said:


>


 I meant that Royalair is not a BYB. They do health testing and titling. If you must go for oversized, they are a good start.
I do like their dogs, but not for me.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Sabis mom said:


> I meant that Royalair is not a BYB. They do health testing and titling. If you must go for oversized, they are a good start.
> I do like their dogs, but not for me.



All I see is CGC titles. If that's their idea of proving their stock...we've really lowered the bar.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

martemchik said:


> All I see is CGC titles. If that's their idea of proving their stock...we've really lowered the bar.


:thumbup:

Royalair seems like a byb to me.


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## Debanneball (Aug 28, 2014)

Ace GSD said:


> You know i have always wonder what qualifies as NOT BYB breeder ??


IMHO.. I am not a breeder, cannot truly say, but I assume that a 'NON BYB' is a person who does care about the breed, does only a couple of litters per year, will offer help and advice when required, etc etc.


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

martemchik said:


> All I see is CGC titles. If that's their idea of proving their stock...we've really lowered the bar.


This came across my mind but then again what if i just want a family pet ? What if i dont care to show or do IPO ?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Just wanting a family pet doesn't or shouldn't lower the bar on what breeders are doing to prove their program. CGC's are fairly easy to aquire, doesn't prove a dogs breedworthiness.
If they are charging the same as a breeder that is getting out on a trial field to prove what they are breeding is able to do it, their goals must be very different. 
Choosing which breeder to support is an individual decision. I'd always go with the one proving what they are doing is about the dogs and not the profits.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

> then again what if i just want a family pet ? What if i dont care to show or do IPO


Even people who want a family pet deserve a solid dog. This article explains why it is so important for breeders to work their dogs to maintain the breed's strengths and characteristics. You can scroll down to the end of the article to "But I just want a pet!" for a direct answer, and then you can read the entire article for more info on why proving one's breeding stock is so important:

(German Shepherd Breeders, by Wildhaus Kennels)

Here is another article on temperament and genetics that I believe should be mandatory reading for all breeders and GSD owners. A bit long, but well worth the time. I think this article helps people understand how multi-faceted good-temperament is, and why breeders need to work their dogs in multiple venues and title them to explore the inner strengths and weaknesses of their breeding dogs and make appropriate breeding decisions. (Also remember that SchH/IPO has three components in it: Tracking, Obedience & Protection, so a SchH/IPO title is equivalent to titling in multiple disciplines). 

http://www.wildhauskennels.com/temperament.htm

And if people still feel that titles are not important, here is an older thread that showcases how important (and just plain enjoyable!) it is to have a dog has solid nerves and environmental stability. Sure, perhaps some of these dogs did come from BYB's, but being familiar with most of the posters, and with most of their dogs, the solid dogs came from breeders that title their breeding stock in working venues:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/weekly-discussion-topics/153442-share-examples-good-nerve.html


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

Castlemaid said:


> Even people who want a family pet deserve a solid dog. This article explains why it is so important for breeders to work their dogs to maintain the breed's strengths and characteristics. You can scroll down to the end of the article to "But I just want a pet!" for a direct answer, and then you can read the entire article for more info on why proving one's breeding stock is so important:
> 
> (German Shepherd Breeders, by Wildhaus Kennels)
> 
> ...


You make great point but let me ask you this and i dont mind to sound like a smartie just honest question why only german shepherd breeding dogs need to have IPO/Schutz ?? why the other working dog breed dont need it ?


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

My neurotic, fearful mess of a dog has a CGC. That should tell you something about the value of a CGC. 

And other working breeds do look for titles based on what the dog is actually bred to do. Titling or working in SOME capacity means that some third party has evaluated and judged the dog's temperament.


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

LoveEcho said:


> My neurotic, fearful mess of a dog has a CGC. That should tell you something about the value of a CGC.
> 
> And other working breeds do look for titles based on what the dog is actually bred to do. Titling or working in SOME capacity means that some third party has evaluated and judged the dog's temperament.


Thats 2 great new info for me thank you .


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Schutzhund was developed as a breed test for German Shepherds Ace. For me, It comes down mostly to what LoveEcho said. Other people's evaluation and opinion. Its to easy to claim things and put up pictures on the internet. Lets see what they can do away from your property.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I'm not 100 percent sure on this but in Germany I believe you can't register GSD,Rottys,or Dobermans until they are titled in schutzhund?Something I remember reading but didn't look at closely.
As far as having two dogs in an apartment,it would be difficult!Nevertheless,as long as you choose a conscientious breeder that has healthy dogs with good temperaments,choose what you will be happy with for the next 12+years.


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## sehrgutcsg (Feb 7, 2014)

Steve Strom said:


> And I'm not in any way knocking anyone's dogs. All I mean is that Ace needs to look around over time to make the right choices for himself.


Any words that interfere with the general community of German Shepherd owner's, where or, from whom they bought or bread their dogs creates dessension within the community. A member who wants to learn, does not need to be chastized, what, where and why. Their members and they have the same rights as anybody else here.

*Just sayin*, one of my least favorite expressions..


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Ace GSD said:


> You make great point but let me ask you this and i dont mind to sound like a smartie just honest question why only german shepherd breeding dogs need to have IPO/Schutz ?? why the other working dog breed dont need it ?


I do think that titling and extensively testing German Shepherds is more important than with a lot of breeds. German Shepherds were bred originally to be watchful and alert and in tune with their surroundings. They are also designed, as a breed, to fight and bite to defend their humans and their territories. Unfortunately if strong nerves and clear-headedness are not actively selected for, they seem to disappear in bloodlines fairly quickly, leaving us with a breed that is often nervous, sharp, and fear-aggressive. I often explain it as "German Shepherds are supposed to have a strong bite. Labrador Retrievers are supposed to have a soft mouth. Which one would you rather go haywire?" In breeds that were originally developed as companions or as retrievers, when breeding goes wrong what you often end up with is a happy, sweet, kind of dumb dog. In breeds that are bred to be watchful protectors, when breeding goes wrong you can end up with a time bomb.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Ace GSD said:


> You make great point but let me ask you this and i dont mind to sound like a smartie just honest question why only german shepherd breeding dogs need to have IPO/Schutz ?? why the other working dog breed dont need it ?


A) Why does it matter what the other breeds do? You’re getting a GSD, it’s not about comparing it to the other breeds. It’s about you picking this breed for a reason, those reasons are exactly why you didn’t go with another breed, so why would you compare what is necessary from a GSD to what is necessary from another breed?

B) I think today, you’re interested in just a pet, but you have no idea if tomorrow you’ll be interested in doing more with that pet. And the biggest disservice a breeder can do, is provide you with a dog that isn’t going to be capable of doing the sport or hobby that you might get into in the future. This is why Steve’s advice is pretty important. Go out and do some things with your dog, see what you get into. Maybe you will fall in love with a sport/activity that will require you to get a certain type of dog. Trust me, I’ve seen plenty of people do it the other way around. Fall in love with a breeder/type of dog, then get into a sport where their dog isn’t capable of doing it…it sucks when that happens. You have a dog for 10 years. If you get another one right now, that means you’ll have 2 for 10 years. It’s unlikely that you’ll get a 3rd just because the first two are incapable of whatever it is you might decide to do.


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

martemchik said:


> A) Why does it matter what the other breeds do? You’re getting a GSD, it’s not about comparing it to the other breeds. It’s about you picking this breed for a reason, those reasons are exactly why you didn’t go with another breed, so why would you compare what is necessary from a GSD to what is necessary from another breed?
> 
> B) I think today, you’re interested in just a pet, but you have no idea if tomorrow you’ll be interested in doing more with that pet. And the biggest disservice a breeder can do, is provide you with a dog that isn’t going to be capable of doing the sport or hobby that you might get into in the future. This is why Steve’s advice is pretty important. Go out and do some things with your dog, see what you get into. Maybe you will fall in love with a sport/activity that will require you to get a certain type of dog. Trust me, I’ve seen plenty of people do it the other way around. Fall in love with a breeder/type of dog, then get into a sport where their dog isn’t capable of doing it…it sucks when that happens. You have a dog for 10 years. If you get another one right now, that means you’ll have 2 for 10 years. It’s unlikely that you’ll get a 3rd just because the first two are incapable of whatever it is you might decide to do.


B is great advice thanks ! But A its not really so much i wonder what other breed don't do but more like why only GSD do ... Idk if that make sense with my grammar not so good.
It maybe wrong to some people that i picked GSD for only the look , intelligent and loyalty . That being said if i have the money or time Schutzhund gotta be so much fun .


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## peppsmom (Oct 4, 2014)

I've got one of these dogs. And I LOVE her, but I would not buy from this breeder again. Now that I am more educated (and I thought I had done my research to begin with, eliminated BYBs and such) I know that even advertising dogs as such is nonsense, and should make you question either the ethics or knowledge of the breeder (maybe both?). 

I think I still got a good breeder of these type, over all. This breeder has been in the game well over 35 years, and they have a facebook page with over 900 likes and 95% of reviews are 5 stars and glowing. These are people that have been through multiple generations of these dogs, and are happy campers.

With that said, my breeder is HUGELY misinformed on some "basics." She's regularly posting nonscientific garbage to facebook, told me that "her puppies don't bite" --- (which this forum has taught me is just laughable) etc. That raw is dangerous, that vaccinations beyond rabies & parvodistemper are dangerous, and she voids warranties for not using this small-time kibble producer that uses grain and other mid-level ingredients. She also said she breeds low drive puppies, and large. When I told her Pepp's weight was at 40 pounds she told me that "Pepper was behind" and that all the other dogs in the litter were pushing 60 to 65 at that point, and I must be doing something wrong.

So when I got my Pepper, I was disappointed because I wound up with a "small", high drive dog. Turns out she's just a normal GSD, and once this forum showed me that, I'm very grateful that she is who she is. She will still be big (she will probably mature into a normal male size, 75 to 80 pounds) but she will not be the giants her parents are. And I'm happy about it! Oversized is not good for bones or growth. Low drive is not natural to the breed. Even if lower drive, if you're breeding lazy dogs what are you doing? You aren't breeding a GSD. 

I've made peace in my mind with the breeder. She is who she is, and I've got a great dog who I wouldn't trade for the world. But I don't know if I would support her again, just based on this willful misinformation. Hard to say when I love my girl so much...but it's complicated!

If you want to breed these dogs, just say what you're doing. Say breeding oversized, family dogs, for preference.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

> You make great point but let me ask you this and i dont mind to sound like a smartie just honest question why only german shepherd breeding dogs need to have IPO/Schutz ??


They don't _have_ to be. Anyone can take two dogs and breed them. They can be the most messed up, fearful, reactive, unpredictably aggressive, full of medical issues with terrible conformation, but if they are registered pure-bred dogs, their messed-up, fearful, aggressive, un-healthy, pups can also be registered as pure-bred GSDs. In North America, at least, and in many other countries. 

In Germany, the home and origin of hte German Shepherd dog, the GSD breed club's aim was to preserve the look, conformation, protectiveness and its ability to be an excellent herding, Police and Military dog. Having SchH/IPO or Herding titles is a _minimum_ requirement for breeding. If a GSD could not even achieve that much, then it did not have the right characteristics needed to pass on to the following generations that would ensure that all the things that make the GSD so sought after as a pet and as a working dog were being preserved. 

In the US, Canada, and many other countries, the GSD clubs and registration organizations do not have such a requirement, but good breeders WANT to ensure that the dog they breed meet a MINIMUM standard by titling their dogs in venues that ensures that they do have good dogs for breeding. That is for the GSD standard. Many breeders of other working/protective breeds like Rottweilers, Belgian Malinois and Dobermans, also turn to SchH/IPO to test their breeding stock for the traits they want to make sure are being preserverd in order to decide if the dogs should be breeding material. 



> why the other working dog breed dont need it ?


Good breeders of other breeds who care about what makes their breed unique will test thier breeding stock in venues appropriate for that breed: Hunting/Retriving dogs in Field Trials, Terriers in Barn trials, Herding breeds in herding trials, etc. Otherwise you end up with dogs like 


> . . . today there are Labs who wouldn't know what to do if a bird fell on the ground in front of them, Beagles who'd completely ignore a rabbit running by, Huskies who don't like to be outdoors, and German Shepherds and Dobermans who'd run and hide under the bed if a burglar broke into the house


From one of the articles I have posted above:
(German Shepherd Breeders, by Wildhaus Kennels)


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

LoveEcho said:


> My neurotic, fearful mess of a dog has a CGC. That should tell you something about the value of a CGC.


So does mine. I plan to put a couple more titles on her this year. When breeders use CGCs as a selling point for temperament, I would run, not walk, the other way. Ditto for RN or BN or any other low level obedience title.

Working dogs need a sound temperament. Just getting to the point of trying for an IPO1 takes way more out of a dog than training for a CGC, temperament-wise. Sure a title is not a guarantee, but it shows the breeder is at least testing their dogs in a truly high pressure environment and not just puppy kindergarten.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> I meant that Royalair is not a BYB. They do health testing and titling. If you must go for oversized, they are a good start.
> I do like their dogs, but not for me.


i have their website and i believe some owners have posted on here about their dogs. i agree, if someone wanted oversize, it is a good place to start.


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

I actually been talking to rosehall kennel owner. So far she is the only one willing to answe questions about the good and bad of her dogs . 2 breeders run away when asked if their dog have DM . I dont think they should b offended at all .


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

huntergreen said:


> i have their website and i believe some owners have posted on here about their dogs. i agree, if someone wanted oversize, it is a good place to start.


 Anyone who would refer to Royalair as a BYB needs to take a much, much closer look. 

And here is another breeder who seems to like them big, Valiantdale. While not breeding for oversized perhaps, the dogs are large.
And just in case the argument is big ones can't work,
Valiantdale's Icon Vom Irwin UDT, SCH IIIA 
So is it wrong to want one? Nope, the heart wants what it wants.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Sabis mom said:


> Anyone who would refer to Royalair as a BYB needs to take a much, much closer look.


I did take a much closer look, they are breeding dogs with poor pigment, they are breeding dogs purposely to get black/silver puppies, some of their dogs don't even look like GSDs, some are rather unattractive. 

This breeder also studs out and sells dogs purposely for breeding to other BYBs, my dog's breeder is one of them. 

They might do health testing but that's it. 

Knowing what I know now, I would never support a breeder like this.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Sabis mom said:


> Anyone who would refer to Royalair as a BYB needs to take a much, much closer look.
> 
> And here is another breeder who seems to like them big, Valiantdale. While not breeding for oversized perhaps, the dogs are large.
> And just in case the argument is big ones can't work,
> ...


The dog you posted was whelped in 1983. What is a SCHIIIA title? One dog titled in a program doesn't prove much to me, especially one many decades ago. 
The pedigree doesn't list any Sch or IPO titles.
Valiantdale's Icon Vom Irwin


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> The mid 1960"s through the 1990's saw a huge amount of training and titling.
> 
> A gradual slowdown began in 2000 and continues today, but by no means does it signal the end of the Valiantdale breeding program.


Maybe a big change 15yrs ago?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Sabis mom said:


> Anyone who would refer to Royalair as a BYB needs to take a much, much closer look.
> 
> And here is another breeder who seems to like them big, Valiantdale. While not breeding for oversized perhaps, the dogs are large.
> And just in case the argument is big ones can't work,
> ...


I don't care what you want to refer to them as...I'm sure you can find 1000s of breeders worse than this and 1000s better.

The point is...they select breeding stock based on size, then set a super low "working standard" that the dogs need to pass before they breed them. A CGC basically doesn't test for any of the natural traits of a GSD that you'd want to pass on except for maybe aloofness. So if that's your "working standard" as a breeder, then yes, I will call you out on it because not only does that not really test for anything, it's also a "trainable test" in the sense that you can train a dog to do it and the dog's natural temperament traits aren't shown off or used in the test. It's basically a test of how calm and undriven a dog can be. The lazier and calmer your dog is, the easier it is to pass a CGC. If it doesn't care about ANYTHING, and just doesn't respond to any stimulus, you have the perfect CGC candidate. I'm not sure if that's the perfect GSD though.

I don't think anyone would tell you that the dogs can't work. It’s about HOW they work though. Anyone that’s seen a standard GSD work, and then one that’s maybe 2 inches bigger or 20 lbs heavier will easily see the difference. Sure, there are dogs out there that can go through the motions and pass, but it’s not about that. It’s about the handler learning something about the dog while they’re titling the dog and then making the decision to breed it or not. Just because a dog has SchH3 behind its name doesn’t necessarily mean it needs to be bred and that it’s a fantastic representation of the breed.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I don't understand..If people want a giant breed, why not get one that already exists within its own breed standard?


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> I don't understand..If people want a giant breed, why not get one that already exists within its own breed standard?


I'd like a Great Dane. Only I want one that weighs 65 lbs. I wonder if there are any breeders producing them...


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Some of us are not 100 percent in agreement with the breed standard but nonetheless love GSDs.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

dogma13 said:


> Some of us are not 100 percent in agreement with the breed standard but nonetheless love GSDs.


What does this mean exactly? You want to move away from an established standard and change what?


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

dogma13 said:


> Some of us are not 100 percent in agreement with the breed standard but nonetheless love GSDs.



Then you're not "in love" with GSD's. You're in love with something that may slightly resemble a GSD, but according to what one is supposed to be, actually isn't. So why not get a Malamute or Mastiff or any large guardian breed?


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

GatorDog said:


> Then you're not "in love" with GSD's. You're in love with something that may slightly resemble a GSD, but according to what one is supposed to be, actually isn't. So why not get a Malamute or Mastiff or any large guardian breed?



I agree with this. 100%. Love the breed for what it's supposed to be, not what you want it to be. 

I love Border Collies. I will never own one, because I know I am the wrong handler for one. I don't go out and try to find a breeder that had changed the amazing things about the border collie to fit my lifestyle. I admire them from afar. I love them for what they ARE. 

I don't agree that we should dumb down a breed to fit the market. Nor do I believe in the opposite. I am just as against crazy prey monsters that look and behave more like Malinois. 

I think we should respect what the GSD is, and not change it to suit our wants. I don't think getting a Mastiff in a GSD suit is ok.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

dogma13 said:


> Some of us are not 100 percent in agreement with the breed standard but nonetheless love GSDs.


Or at least not in 100 percent in agreement with the way the breed standard is being interpreted by certain breeders.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

GatorDog said:


> Then you're not "in love" with GSD's. You're in love with something that may slightly resemble a GSD, but according to what one is supposed to be, actually isn't. So why not get a Malamute or Mastiff or any large guardian breed?


:thumbup:


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

shepherdmom said:


> Or at least not in 100 percent in agreement with the way the breed standard is being interpreted by certain breeders.


This!:thumbup:


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

dogma13 said:


> Some of us are not 100 percent in agreement with the breed standard but nonetheless love GSDs.


Agree


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Shiloh Shepherds. If you want a dog that has a vague resemblance to a GSD but not the actual looks or personality, go with a breed that actually fits that description. It's akin to saying you want to find a breeder who produces medium-sized Danes. It's just not what the breed is supposed to be.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

if i wanted an oversized gsd, then that is what i would get since they are out their. imho, if every breeder adhered to a strict interpretation of the standard, there wouldn't be the different "flavors" of gsd that we have. just so happens i like a medium size dog.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

shepherdmom said:


> Or at least not in 100 percent in agreement with the way the breed standard is being interpreted by certain breeders.



So you're in agreement with the ones that are the small minority and somehow think they're more right than the majority? Makes sense. Those breeders that are not just interpreting a standard incorrectly but are clearly going against it in measurable and objective ways? Like white dogs, dogs over 26" tall, dogs that weigh over 90lbs, ect.

There are some things that I can see are in the gray, but then there are many things in the standard that are black and white. Those breeders that choose to purposely go against the black and white parts...hard to agree with what they're doing.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

I don't believe there should be all these "flavors" of GSD'S.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

shepherdmom said:


> Or at least not in 100 percent in agreement with the way the breed standard is being interpreted by certain breeders.



What don't you agree with? The part that clearly identifies them as being a medium size dog?


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

> Or at least not in 100 percent in agreement with the way the breed standard is being interpreted by certain breeders.





martemchik said:


> So you're in agreement with the ones that are the small minority and somehow think they're more right than the majority? Makes sense. Those breeders that are not just interpreting a standard incorrectly but are clearly going against it in measurable and objective ways? Like white dogs, dogs over 26" tall, dogs that weigh over 90lbs, ect.


Nice way to twist my words. Tell me do you agree with the angulation of the American Show line breeders? Do you agree with the "prey monsters" or some of the other things being bred today? I can and will buy/rescue the type of German Shepherd that I am attracted to. Just as others will support the type they want to have. The problem with the German Shepherd is their is no clear majority. It is already split working line/ show line American line/German line/ other lines standard colors/white and other colors

What I AM saying is support the breeder or rescue that has the type of dog you want. They are out there. I am not going to support one that takes the Shepherd in a direction I don't want to see it to go. Why would anyone?


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

You should be supporting the breeder that is breeding the best they can TO the standard. Not the breeders that ie. Breed 100+ lb dogs because that's what you like. That's the whole point, if you don't like the medium sized dog with proper drive, get a breed that is meant to be big and less drive.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> What don't you agree with? The part that clearly identifies them as being a medium size dog?


I think after all the years I've been around this board everyone pretty much knows what I prefer (hint look at my avatar) but my preferences are not what is under discussion. The point is we all have somewhat different views as to what we want in our German Shepherd. Being militant about one view or another does not win converts nor will it change anyone's mind as to what they want in a German Shepherd.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Saphire said:


> You should be supporting the breeder that is breeding the best they can TO the standard. Not the breeders that ie. Breed 100+ lb dogs because that's what you like. That's the whole point, if you don't like the medium sized dog with proper drive, get a breed that is meant to be big and less drive.


Who's interpretation of the standard? The angulation interpretation of the show line or the high drive working line? Unless and until everyone agrees (which will never IMO happen) support the breeders that you feel produce the best German Shepherds.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

Saphire said:


> I don't believe there should be all these "flavors" of GSD'S.


but there are, and people should choose a breeder based on the "flavor that suits them best, as well as some other considerations. i am not just referring to size and color, i am referring to mostly temperament. i would cringe at a breeder, whose dogs excel at sports and breed extremely high drive wgsd and place them in a home with an in experienced dog owner. we both know a reputable breeder wouldn't this, but we are talking hypothetical. sounds to me like wgsd breed to enhance this trait when a gsd is supposed to be a utility dog. in that regard, again imho, to breed for extreme high drive goes against the standard the same as breeding for extreme size. 

note: i am not referring to breeder on this forum.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> Nice way to twist my words. Tell me do you agree with the angulation of the American Show line breeders? Do you agree with the "prey monsters" or some of the other things being bred today? I can and will buy/rescue the type of German Shepherd that I am attracted to. Just as others will support the type they want to have. The problem with the German Shepherd is their is no clear majority. It is already split working line/ show line American line/German line/ other lines standard colors/white and other colors
> 
> What I AM saying is support the breeder or rescue that has the type of dog you want. They are out there. I am not going to support one that takes the Shepherd in a direction I don't want to see it to go. Why would anyone?


good post. in my area of the world it is unbelievable the extreme angulation that is bred for. it is done strictly for the show ring. these dogs can barely walk and many are a bundle of nerves. but they win in the looks department.


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## mssandslinger (Sep 21, 2010)

shepherdmom said:


> Who's interpretation of the standard? The angulation interpretation of the show line or the high drive working line? Unless and until everyone agrees (which will never IMO happen) support the breeders that you feel produce the best German Shepherds.


i can agree with this, looking back on other breeds over the years how the standards change for the dogs and they look different. i dont always agree with "breed standards" its like chocolate, every 5 years its either good or bad for you.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

all one has to do see old reruns of rin tin tin or bullet from roy rogers to see how the interpretation of the standard has changed.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

shepherdmom said:


> Nice way to twist my words. Tell me do you agree with the angulation of the American Show line breeders? Do you agree with the "prey monsters" or some of the other things being bred today? I can and will buy/rescue the type of German Shepherd that I am attracted to. Just as others will support the type they want to have. The problem with the German Shepherd is their is no clear majority. It is already split working line/ show line American line/German line/ other lines standard colors/white and other colors
> 
> What I AM saying is support the breeder or rescue that has the type of dog you want. They are out there. I am not going to support one that takes the Shepherd in a direction I don't want to see it to go. Why would anyone?


Actually...earlier in the thread you told OP to get the dog they wanted. Whether it be blue, red, white, green, large, small whatever. So it's clear that you have no problem supporting breeders that are actively breeding against the easily measurable things in standard.

"Prey monsters"...a term that is learned on the interweb and not actually witnessed in the real world. So you've shown your experience with actual dogs by using that term. I don't know a single person that actually works or breeds dogs, that prefers and breeds something that would be referred to as a "prey monster." It's just another term that is thrown around on the internet by people that don't understand what it actually means or how it relates to a working dog.


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

The extreme angulation of WGSL is not original either right ? its the standard cause an organization says it is ? cause isnt german shepherd originaly bred for working and it had straight back ?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

huntergreen said:


> all one has to do see old reruns of rin tin tin or bullet from roy rogers to see how the interpretation of the standard has changed.


Cause rin tin tin was for some reason to the standard? No one in their right mind, even back then, would consider rin tin tin a dog that was to the standard. That dog wouldn't have done anything in the conformation ring. Not sure how a Hollywood TV show has anything to do with what a standard GSD is...but if that's where you're getting your breed information, it makes sense why there is so much confusion as to what the standard should be.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

"Straight back" - another term that shows the lack of knowledge or understanding of the GSD standard. Basically, most people use it to mean that the back is PERPENDICULAR to the ground. No where is this in the standard. People look at other breeds and think that a back should be perpendicular to the ground...when in reality, this doesn't affect the dog one bit. A GSD should have a slight slant in it's back when it is in motion, this leads to much easier movement and less energy exerted while working. This slant is caused by the angulation in the rear legs (the way that joints come together). The angulation also allows the GSD to have much greater motion in the rear end than many other breeds, which causes it to be much more powerful because it can really get those legs under itself when moving or jumping. There is of course a happy medium, and the majority of GSD breeders to breed to this medium. The "extreme angulation" is another one of those myths that people like to point out on a few dogs and youtube videos that people see because they don't actually go out and see what is actually going on in the real world, and then believe that every dog in a show ring looks like the one they saw on the youtube video. It actually has NOTHING to do with the health of those joints and in reality doesn't affect the dog's working ability unless it is pretty extreme in one way or another. If you're close to what the standard calls for, the dog should be able to work just fine.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

We wonder why the standard is constantly changing.. Take a look at the types of dogs that people are being encouraged to support in this thread.

Yes, theres a split between show and working lines in GSD's, but that's the same in every breed. At least they're identifiable within their standard. Most show lines look very similar, as do most working lines. Now throw in "over sized straight back" and we're adding a whole new category just for aesthetic appeal, with no real purpose.

And if someone doesn't want a high drive, medium sized dog, then they shouldn't have been interested in a GSD in the first place.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

yeah thats where all my info comes from. i will make this easy and type slow so you understand. peoples interpretation of the standard will vary, the same as reading law or the cotus. that is why we have different variations of the gsd from looks to to temperament. you can have 8 breeders with different types and all believe they have followed the standard in every way. like it or not market forces also come into play.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

GatorDog said:


> We wonder why the standard is constantly changing.. Take a look at the types of dogs that people are being encouraged to support in this thread.
> 
> Yes, theres a split between show and working lines in GSD's, but that's the same in every breed. At least they're identifiable within their standard. Most show lines look very similar, as do most working lines. Now throw in "over sized straight back" and we're adding a whole new category just for aesthetic appeal, with no real purpose.
> 
> And if someone doesn't want a high drive, medium sized dog, then they shouldn't have been interested in a GSD in the first place.


where in the standard does it say "high drive".


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

shepherdmom said:


> Who's interpretation of the standard?


There are many bad interpretations of the standard (most of which have already been mentioned here), but I wanted to point out that correct size and weight are not really open for interpretation, they are embedded in the standard already and have allowed minimums and maximums. During a breed survey, potential breeding dogs *are* weighed and measured. It's one area that we should not have to bicker about being open to one's interpretation of the standard because it's quite clearly defined.

United Schutzhund Clubs of America ? Breed Standards

http://www.fci.be/Nomenclature/Standards/166g01-en.pdf


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

huntergreen said:


> where in the standard does it say "high drive".


Do you even know what "high drive" is?


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Sheperdmom stated it best.Some breeders interpret the standard in a way that is detrimental In our personal opinion.We all have strong and different personal opinions.There's no need to become hostile and sarcastic when discussing various points of view.Right now I am smiling because I have an image in my mind of a miniature Great Dane that I can't seem to shake.Like having a stupid song stuck in my head


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

I've refrained from responding to a particular argument often made, however, I think I am going to this time 

For the argumet of "Why don't you get a mastiff, great dane, shiloh, pyrennese, poodle..." (poodle just for laughs) when a person prefers a larger shepherd, here is my thoughts...

I love gsd's specifically for all their traits, their drive, their intelligence, loyality, aloofness, discernment, trainability, etc... I just prefer mine in a larger (not giant) package.. All my shepherds I've owned, have ended up being over standard size.. I did not go about buying them for the larger size - as a matter of fact, until my most recent shepherd, I had never even thought about size (and with her, I just happened to ask what her parents height and weight were, after the fact as she was a large puppy) - chosen or me by the breeder.

I don't want a different breed as I would then get different characteristics. I'm not looking for a mastiff in a gsd coat, or any other breed... I want a gsd... And I can get one in, and I would guess, probably just about EVERY litter ever whelped.. I sincerely doubt evey puppy in every litter is within breed standards, be it in smaller or larger.. Variations naturally appear... Keep in mind I am not talking about giant gsd's (although this occurs as well more often then some would care to admit).. I am talking about 2-3" either gender above standard, and obviously healthy weight, whatever that maybe..

My larger shepherds have consistently lived 15yrs (except one who had a twist at 10 and died suddenly), been high drive with good off switches, protective, loving, aloof, athletic, and imho - beautiful. My current female is 9mos old and 26.5" and 80+lbs.. And she is ridiculously fast, agile, strong drive/prey, deep pigmentation and lover... I've done SAR with most of my shepherds and this girl will be no exception... I could go on, but I think I stated my thoughts 

Anyhow, I just wanted to rebutt the long standing argument with my thoughts.. I am sure others may feel differently from both sides (obviously the standard is set side, and perhaps those that want a more docile gsd (which occurs in normal litters as well)).. I do agree, that if gsd's are bred for size only, color only, whatever,'ONLY' then the beloved German Shepherd is doomed... As health, temperament, drive, agility/athleticism, instinct, etc are all important aspects of our breed... And I do LOVE this breed!  Breeders should only breed for the betterment of the breed - but that does mean that their will be variety naturally, as carbon copy dogs would be a very sad thing indeed.... But whether or not people can see eye to eye as to what is 'betterment' (i.e. more 'beautiful' angulated dogs (not my cuppa), to higher drive (too high not good for me -I like off switches), to size or color) is, well, that is the true goal


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

huntergreen said:


> yeah thats where all my info comes from. i will make this easy and type slow so you understand. peoples interpretation of the standard will vary, the same as reading law or the cotus. that is why we have different variations of the gsd from looks to to temperament. you can have 8 breeders with different types and all believe they have followed the standard in every way. like it or not market forces also come into play.


It doesn't mean you should support those breeders or what they're doing. Unfortunately, the lack of knowledge of the majority of GSD owners/potential owners is what leads to the market making the GSD what it was never meant to be.

The idea that someone who has never had any real education in the GSD standard, is causing the market to produce a dog that is what they want, mostly based on the look of the dog and not the actual temperament of the dog is the problem.

Basically...people purchase a dog breed based on looks. That's how it will probably always be. "I want a dog that looks like the local K9 so that people are scared of it, but I don't want it to have the drive that will allow it to actually do that work, someone please make a dog for me that just lays around all day but looks like all those cool dogs the military uses."

And what worries me, is how many people we have on this forum, that claim to be GSD enthusiasts, and have absolutely no issue supporting and even convincing others to support breeders that are clearly doing things against what the standard is supposed to be.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Hineni7 said:


> I've refrained from responding to a particular argument often made, however, I think I am going to this time
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think there's a big difference between variation in a litter that was bred with both sire and dam within standard, and a breeder who is legitimately only breeding for size. 

I know plenty of working line people with big GSD's doing Schutzhund and I have zero issues with them. But the people who paid decent money for them did not seek them out just because the parents were 120lbs with a CGC.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

GatorDog said:


> I think there's a big difference between variation in a litter that was bred with both sire and dam within standard, and a breeder who is legitimately only breeding for size.
> 
> I know plenty of working line people with big GSD's doing Schutzhund and I have zero issues with them. But the people who paid decent money for them did not seek them out just because the parents were 120lbs with a CGC.


I agree... Breeding for any one specific aspect no matter what reason will ultimately derail the rest of the good. And I do understand the desire to fight (respectfully hopefully) for the good of the breed when one trait is the sole purpose of breeding; for this thread, size. My comments were just in defense of large shepherd being low drive, or a different breed in a gsd coat  My shepherds have come from good breeders who thoughtfully and purposefully bred their dogs for the betterment of the breed - taking the whole german shepherd traits into consideration, but out popped some larger pups:wub:

Anyhow, I do get your point being not to breed for size only and distort the shepherd to a point that they are anything but what initially attracted you to the gsd


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

I have only bought one GSD ,Daisy who was 27 in at the withers and was a big female,deep chest etc. Didnt buy her cause she was big bought her cause we loved her. Lucky has been called a horse in a very critical way by a trainer and he is definitely over standard. He is not the 8 to 10 ratio of height to length and he could have been saddled as a young dog. I still see them as GSDs ,not well bred but they have lots of traits of the breed.Daisy's parents were with in the standard. She and her brother Beau were the biggest pups in the litter,not why I picked her. I picked her because she wasnt aggressive but wasnt afraid to play and be assertive. There are dogs who were bred to the standard but came out a little under or a little over the standard.Chevy and Thunder are both under 26in in height but have many other conformation flaws but their personalit or temperment is fantastic; patient w/ kids and really good with people in general but still on guard when needed. Im not sure if my recues would be called GSDs by the experts here on this forum. I didnt buy them I just love them. What will my next dog be .Dont know. I hope to get a GSD who has the genetic obedience in their pedigree,a dog who could be trained as a diabetic alert dog or a therapy dog. I want a stable temperment above all else. this is where I might depart from the views here on the forum if I can find a GSD whose pedigree shows consistently stable temperments and health then I dont care about color, size or how many teeth they have thats what I want.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Daisy&Lucky's Mom said:


> I have only bought one GSD ,Daisy who was 27 in at the withers and was a big female,deep chest etc. Didnt buy her cause she was big bought her cause we loved her. Lucky has been called a horse in a very critical way by a trainer and he is definitely over standard. He is not the 8 to 10 ratio of height to length and he could have been saddled as a young dog. I still see them as GSDs ,not well bred but they have lots of traits of the breed.Daisy's parents were with in the standard. She and her brother Beau were the biggest pups in the litter,not why I picked her. I picked her because she wasnt aggressive but wasnt afraid to play and be assertive. There are dogs who were bred to the standard but came out a little under or a little over the standard.Chevy and Thunder are both under 26in in height but have many other conformation flaws but their personalit or temperment is fantastic; patient w/ kids and really good with people in general but still on guard when needed. Im not sure if my recues would be called GSDs by the experts here on this forum. I didnt buy them I just love them. What will my next dog be .Dont know. I hope to get a GSD who has the genetic obedience in their pedigree,a dog who could be trained as a diabetic alert dog or a therapy dog. I want a stable temperment above all else. this is where I might depart from the views here on the forum if I can find a GSD whose pedigree shows consistently stable temperments and health then I dont care about color, size or how many teeth they have thats what I want.



This is where you're just validating my point. You say that the parents were within standard..then all is well. It happens in litters. You get variation. 

But then you say you want proof of stable temperament through pedigree...so why would you encourage the support of a breeder who is doing no real testing to support the characteristic that you value in a GSD, and only breeds for aesthetic appeal?


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

huntergreen said:


> where in the standard does it say "high drive".


Right here:



> both fit and willing to serve in its capacity as companion, watchdog, blind leader, herding dog, or guardian, whichever the circumstances may demand.


Also here: 



> The ideal dog is a working animal with an incorruptible character combined with body and gait suitable for the arduous work that constitutes its primary purpose.


You don't have a dog suitable for arduous work without considerably high drive. Are they supposed to have the highest drive it is feasibly possible to breed ever? No. They're supposed to be capable of many types of work which is hard to breed for if all you care about is aesthetics.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Kaimeju said:


> Right here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thank you.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

kaim....i think you and i differ on definition of high drive. in your quotes i would put under the definition of "utility". feel free to check, but i don't think Max had "blind leader" in his original standard. a gsd with extreme high drive would not be suitable as a seeing eye dog.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

huntergreen said:


> kaim....i think you and i differ on definition of high drive. in your quotes i would put under the definition of "utility". feel free to check, but i don't think Max had "blind leader" in his original standard. a gsd with extreme high drive would not be suitable as a seeing eye dog.



Where did you see me say extreme?

And how many seeing eye dogs have you trained that you know what kind of drive is necessary for a dog to do that?


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

I think it is very possible and likely to love gsd and support a breeder to whom breeds for what you like, it happens all the time... If your experience with a gsd was with a calm low drive Shepherd, and that's what you 'know' a GSD to be, then that's what you end up looking for... That is of course where education and experience kick in.. But alot of people will be looking for a repeat of what drew them to a GSD I the first place, be it out of character for the breed or not... 

Gentle but truthful education will do more swaying then logger heading and demeaning one's choices... As with all breeds, variations will occur and appeal to some that doesn't to others. Knocking someone for their likes isn't going to sway a change... But teaching how an extreme trait as a sole breeding goal will be detrimental to the aspects they like about the GSD will, over time, perhaps lend to another person preserving what we love - the GSD.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Hineni7 said:


> I think it is very possible and likely to love gsd and support a breeder to whom breeds for what you like, it happens all the time... If your experience with a gsd was with a calm low drive Shepherd, and that's what you 'know' a GSD to be, then that's what you end up looking for... That is of course where education and experience kick in.. But alot of people will be looking for a repeat of what drew them to a GSD I the first place, be it out of character for the breed or not...
> 
> Gentle but truthful education will do more swaying then logger heading and demeaning one's choices... As with all breeds, variations will occur and appeal to some that doesn't to others. Knocking someone for their likes isn't going to sway a change... But teaching how an extreme trait as a sole breeding goal will be detrimental to the aspects they like about the GSD will, over time, perhaps lend to another person preserving what we love - the GSD.


This attitude is why the GSD is in trouble.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

mart that wasn't directed at you but to kaimeju. just another example of the issue. how i read the standard vs kaimju. the truth is, i believe gsd should closely resemble the original standard. the op wants a larger gsd. i would rather see him go to one who breeds above the standard ht than support a puppy mill. doesnt mean i am wrong to suggest this, but i am more against puppy mills, bred to standard btw, than oversize.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Hineni7 said:


> Gentle but truthful education will do more swaying then logger heading and demeaning one's choices... As with all breeds, variations will occur and appeal to some that doesn't to others. Knocking someone for their likes isn't going to sway a change... But teaching how an extreme trait as a sole breeding goal will be detrimental to the aspects they like about the GSD will, over time, perhaps lend to another person preserving what we love - the GSD.


Unfortunately, at the end of the day, this is always a theoretical discussion that people tend to take way too personally. Not a single dog actually gets pointed out, and yet people still think people are talking about their little (or in this case big) Fluffy.

What I've learned from being in the breed and having these discussions, is that slowly holding someone's hand and trying to teach them a "better" way, rarely works. It's when you do show passion, and when you do show that you care more than just "but maybe you should do it this way" is when people tend to take notice and maybe change their opinion on things. Usually though, people don't change their opinion. Especially on an online forum, it's rare that I expect grown adults to change their opinions based on something a stranger spews to them on a forum...doesn't matter who that person claims to be, or how much they claim to know, most of us, aren't changing our opinions any time soon.

If you go through my history, you'll see that many of my opinions have changed due to people being more combative, being passionate, and truly standing up for what they believe in. It's also helped that I've gone out and seen what the real world is like and not just read about it on this forum.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

I don't agree Sapphire, I believe greed and ignorance and humans natural tendency to ruin what is good is more likely what is destroying the breed.. Manners and education (not saying be a wuss, but not being a prick (not saying you were)) standing firm but not setting someone up to go look elsewhere because they were reamed for their opinion is more helpful... My thoughts


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

I'm not against standing ground and defending a belief (I'm doing it right now), but attacking others or demeaning others (and no, this is not directed at you, just responding to your comment, martemm) just throws the thread into a blood bath where camp lines are drawn, triage is done but the point gets lost.... I do agree that often people feel their dog is the one under attack when it is being generalized, however, it is the attack on the reason why the person got the dog that is the issue.. Not necessarily the dog


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

huntergreen said:


> kaim....i think you and i differ on definition of high drive. in your quotes i would put under the definition of "utility". feel free to check, but i don't think Max had "blind leader" in his original standard. a gsd with extreme high drive would not be suitable as a seeing eye dog.


Maybe its your view from what you've seen, as far as drive goes? Maybe this won't make sense, but high drive is needed for a dog to reliably do a job, when you want him to. Using utility to describe many jobs, all of them need "Drive" including leading someone through traffic.


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