# GSL stud to improve ASL????



## trudy

I have met this dog many times, I have seen many offspring bred to both GSL and ASL and I love what he is producing. Can anyone tell me anything about his pedigree and any problems they have heard. I also want to know what people think about mixing lines. If I ever breed Gemma for myself I would like to either use this dog or one of his sons, but Gemma's breeder feels that would be wrong as she feels we would get the roach and weird rear, but this dog has a nice moderate rear, and can be stacked without the roach and actually was in the top 25 in the breed in CAn shows last year, with many group placements, yet shown only limitedly. 
*V (Can) Ch Tattoo vom Team Zellwaldrand*


V (Can) Ch Tattoo vom Team Zellwaldrand - German Shepherd Dog


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## trudy

here is a link to one of his sons when bred to ASL:
Madeb's Fury - German Shepherd Dog


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## PaddyD

JMHO but I think his rear is extreme. Your Gemma is beautiful and balanced without that ridiculous slope. The rear ends are getting closer and closer to the ground and people think that is beautiful. But that's only my opinion.
Some of the breeders in this forum are producing roachy, sloped backs and everyone is saying 'OH how beautiful'. I think it is sad.


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## cliffson1

Too much length of stifle for my taste....does have good secondary characteristics.....I guess it depends on what you are breeding for.


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## Liesje

Re. Tattoo..... I was just reviewing the results of the Canadian Sieger show and Tattoo was in the open (untitled) class. How does the dog have a V rating if he is not titled? Do other countries not have that rule?


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## Lakl

PaddyD said:


> JMHO but I think his rear is extreme. Your Gemma is beautiful and balanced without that ridiculous slope. The rear ends are getting closer and closer to the ground and people think that is beautiful. But that's only my opinion.
> Some of the breeders in this forum are producing roachy, sloped backs and everyone is saying 'OH how beautiful'. I think it is sad.



I think if you knew a little more about the breeder(s) you are referring to and how much work they put into their dogs and the reputation they hold in both the working and show world, you wouldn't be so quick to speak negatively about them. They are one of the very few SL breeders that strive to produce dogs that can WORK as well as show. JMHO...


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## PaddyD

Lakl said:


> I think if you knew a little more about the breeder(s) you are referring to and how much work they put into their dogs and the reputation they hold in both the working and show world, you wouldn't be so quick to speak negatively about them. They are one of the very few SL breeders that strive to produce dogs that can WORK as well as show. JMHO...


We all have opinions, and mine is as valid to me as anyone else's is to them.
I don't believe that I have to be a super model to appreciate and/or criticize their appearance. I am not a professional athlete but I can appreciate and/or criticize their performance. I am not a breeder but I can appreciate and/or criticize their dogs. It's just an opinion and nobody has to agree with it. But I don't expect to change the opinion that breeders are breeding their dogs' butts into the ground. The slope and angulation makes them look like frogs instead of dogs. JMHO
I do like angulation which causes a strong, straight back to have a slight
slope. But I don't like the extremes. I will not apologize for having an opinion.


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## Liesje

It is not wrong to have an opinion but do you have any experience w/ the dog or pedigree? I don't so I won't comment on whether or not to use him. I've only seen other pictures and video and suffice to say I won't judge this dog simply based on one (poor) stacked photo because I remember I liked him when I saw those videos but do not like this one photo. Is your assessment of him based on the photo in the link?


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## Vandal

I think anyone who has eyes should be allowed to express an opinion. I have seen WL dogs stacked a certain way, ( the KKL 1 stack as one WL guy called it), where the croup looks more steep and rounded. However, no matter how you stack em, they don't look like the show dogs, ( the back), when they are supposedly stacked wrong. If they are stacked in a way where people have to make excuses about it, then don't use the picture.


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## PaddyD

Vandal said:


> I think anyone who has eyes should be allowed to express an opinion. I have seen WL dogs stacked a certain way, ( the KKL 1 stack as one WL guy called it), where the croup looks more steep and rounded. However, no matter how you stack em, they don't look like the show dogs, ( the back), when they are supposedly stacked wrong. If they are stacked in a way where people have to make excuses about it, then don't use the picture.


Amen and stated better than I did. If someone is asking an opinion based on a picture then that is all we have to go by. If the picture is not representative then the opinion will not have a valid basis.


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## trudy

I also don't like that pic, and I do know the dog, have seen him often adn had him lie under my chair at several places. He is frequently at my friend's kennel, and is bred at the kennel. I have no idea how he gets or got ratings, I know he was imported as an adult so have no idea what he did before he arrived here. Like I said this is jsut a thought, but if you scroll down on this link you will see more pics.

Loretto Kennels - Stud Dog Alley


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## Deejays_Owner

Liesje said:


> Re. Tattoo..... I was just reviewing the results of the Canadian Sieger show and Tattoo was in the open (untitled) class. How does the dog have a V rating if he is not titled? Do other countries not have that rule?


You are right the best he COULD go is SG1 (Can) in Open Male!!!

My Deejay did that back in 2007 under SV Judge Ernst Siefert.


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## Lakl

PaddyD said:


> We all have opinions, and mine is as valid to me as anyone else's is to them.
> I don't believe that I have to be a super model to appreciate and/or criticize their appearance. I am not a professional athlete but I can appreciate and/or criticize their performance. I am not a breeder but I can appreciate and/or criticize their dogs. It's just an opinion and nobody has to agree with it. But I don't expect to change the opinion that breeders are breeding their dogs' butts into the ground. The slope and angulation makes them look like frogs instead of dogs. JMHO
> I do like angulation which causes a strong, straight back to have a slight
> slope. But I don't like the extremes. I will not apologize for having an opinion.


My comments were not in regards to your opinion on the dogs. You have your perceived notions on what YOU think a dog should look like, and that is fine. But because others do not agree with you, you think it's sad? I think THAT is sad. If a breeder is producing dogs that excel in both work and conformation, who are you to say what other people's opinions should be of them? Are you a breeder working and titling your dogs? A judge? And I believe the questioned was asked, "What do you think of my dog?" NOT "What do you think of other people's opinions on my dogs?"

**and just to add, I'm not referring to the male stacked pic on this page.


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## PaddyD

trudy said:


> I also don't like that pic, and I do know the dog, have seen him often adn had him lie under my chair at several places. He is frequently at my friend's kennel, and is bred at the kennel. I have no idea how he gets or got ratings, I know he was imported as an adult so have no idea what he did before he arrived here. Like I said this is jsut a thought, but if you scroll down on this link you will see more pics.
> 
> Loretto Kennels - Stud Dog Alley


I really like MarHaven's Black Jack.


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## Liesje

Deejays_Owner said:


> You are right the best he COULD go is SG1 (Can) in Open Male!!!


Yeah that's why it was on my mind. I almost showed Nikon in this class on Sunday so that is why I was curious for the results (just posted this morning). Tattoo was SG3 in the open class.


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## Xeph

Tattoo is listed correct as SG on the Loretto kennel page. It's listed incorrectly only on his PDB page.


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## Deejays_Owner

Liesje said:


> Yeah that's why it was on my mind. I almost showed Nikon in this class on Sunday so that is why I was curious for the results (just posted this morning). Tattoo was SG3 in the open class.


 
I was just checking myself too!!

*Tattoo vom Team Zellwaldrand Male SG3*


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## GSDElsa

I can't tell if it's just the picture, but does he have a super-high tail set and a really short croup??


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## TheNamesNelson

I'm no breeder but as a person commenting on the appearance of a dog; If you split the picture in half the font half of him looks like a nice beautiful masculine male, the back half looks like a crippled animal.


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## Xeph

> JMHO but I think his rear is extreme


So, do you think Jack's rear is extreme too? He's got a lot more rear than Tattoo does.

Tattoo seems pretty moderate to me, but definitely overstacked. I think it's a poor photo. His croup looks absolutely awful there.

That said, I'm hoping we can get back to the topic at hand, as I'm interested in hearing more about his pedigree, and what me may bring to the table.


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## Kayos and Havoc

I don't know this dog but as a general practice I like mixing the lines. I feel this will bring better balance to the ASL.


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## carmspack

all I can say is if only you knew. You are not going to get working out of Sanhedrin , Madeb, or the old Bellino stuff -- 

Carmen


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## GSDElsa

Xeph said:


> That said, I'm hoping we can get back to the topic at hand,


Isn't his conformation a big part of the topic at hand? At least that's what I gathered from the OP.


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## Lucy Dog

Not to say I agree with Paddy, from an an aesthetic point of view, I can see where he's coming from.

The WGSL's are just not for everyone. He's not the first to feel this way and I'm sure he's not the last.


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## Deejays_Owner

carmspack said:


> all I can say is if only you knew. You are not going to get working out of Sanhedrin , Madeb, or the old Bellino stuff --
> 
> Carmen


Carmen 
They will put him in a pen with 3 sheep for 3 Min's & get a HIT, then say that he is a Herding Dog.


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## PaddyD

Lakl said:


> My comments were not in regards to your opinion on the dogs. You have your perceived notions on what YOU think a dog should look like, and that is fine. But because others do not agree with you, you think it's sad? I think THAT is sad. If a breeder is producing dogs that excel in both work and conformation, who are you to say what other people's opinions should be of them? Are you a breeder working and titling your dogs? A judge? And I believe the questioned was asked, "What do you think of my dog?" NOT "What do you think of other people's opinions on my dogs?"
> 
> **and just to add, I'm not referring to the male stacked pic on this page.


I don't think it is sad that people disagree with me, I expect them to.
What I think is sad is what is becoming of GSDs' rear ends. And the breeders are making that happen. I have stated before and will always
state: it is *JMHO*.
Sorry that I was unclear about that.


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## Liesje

Lucy Dog said:


> Not to say I agree with Paddy, from an an aesthetic point of view, I can see where he's coming from.
> 
> The WGSL's are just not for everyone. He's not the first to feel this way and I'm sure he's not the last.


I don't think anyone disagrees with that but she's looking for helpful info with regard to making a breeding decision, not whether we like/dislike the photo or the WGSL as a whole.


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## Lucy Dog

Liesje said:


> I don't think anyone disagrees with that but she's looking for helpful info with regard to making a breeding decision, not whether we like/dislike the photo or the WGSL as a whole.


Is he? From the original post... I'm getting two questions.

1. Bloodlines
2. Will the dogs get "the roach and weird rear"

From the bloodlines questions, yeah, paddys comment probably had nothing to do with that. I can't speak for him, but I'm assuming what he said has nothing to do with this dogs pedigree, temperament, or working ability.

He did hit on the second part of the OP's question though in that he agrees with Gemmas breeder. He doesn't like the look of the WGSL. The whole "half dog, half frog" stance.


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## trudy

Kayos and Havoc, thanks that is what I think too, better to mix and get hopefully better in each.

Carmen I am NOT looking for a working line dog. I am looking to keep the high drive and strong temperment I already have and thought this might be a way of trying, I like Tattoo,and I have spent some time with him and his owner and the kennel that does the breedings for the owner.

Dee Jay's owner, maybe you can get a title after 3 minutes, i applaud you, myself I take lots of time and with tending which is what GS do it takes longer especially if we don't have flocks near by that owners are willing to do tending style, and I have to travel to seminars. 

Liesje, yes I am looking for info and wondering if others think mixing the line and these 2 pedigrees might work, and since i have shared lots of pics and stories of my 2, I felt just showing one of my thoughts would get some great conversation and ideas going. And I was hoping someone knew some info about Tattoo's pedigree, I don't understand what ever language is there so have no idea of the critiques of his ancestors. 

Paddy and Lucy Dog, I also don't like the pic on database but like the pic on Morris site, Loretto kennels and some pics taken with my daughter who is learning to show GS and has piloted Tattoo at his last few shows. 

He is in my mind an honest dog, not perfect, but I have many times been suggested that a breeding to Gemma was a good idea, and I could use any dog at Morris place, but my daughter thinks this might be a good match, just thinking and she is trying to learn more so I thought I'd pick some people's brains who know lots more than either of us.


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## PaddyD

trudy said:


> I have met this dog many times, I have seen many offspring bred to both GSL and ASL and I love what he is producing. Can anyone tell me anything about his pedigree and any problems they have heard. * I also want to know what people think about mixing lines.  If I ever breed Gemma for myself I would like to either use this dog or one of his sons, but Gemma's breeder feels that would be wrong as she feels we would get the roach and weird rear*, but this dog has a nice moderate rear, and can be stacked without the roach and actually was in the top 25 in the breed in CAn shows last year, with many group placements, yet shown only limitedly.
> *V (Can) Ch Tattoo vom Team Zellwaldrand*
> 
> 
> V (Can) Ch Tattoo vom Team Zellwaldrand - German Shepherd Dog


The highlighted text is that to which I was responding. Ergo, I looked at the picture and responded. I thank everyone who tried to interpret my
lame efforts at expressing my opinion. That's all it was: an opinion based
on the picture presented. I should couch all my opinions in FWIWs
and JMHOs. OH, and FWIW, I think Gemma is gorgeous, JMHO.


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## trudy

thanks I love Gemma too, but have to say i have no idea what all the letters mean??? I had no intention of breeding her, just let the breeder have her 1 litter then spay her, but my daughter would like to breed 1 litter from Gemma as she thinks she is pretty special and has a lot to offer, and if I agree, we have talked about Tattoo. his owner Richard is nicely having Ang show him and that is helping her learn how to do it and she is also handling several others from Loretto kennels, and other ASL's, and other GSL. She has always wanted to do this and so is trying to learn how. And so is becoming more aware of many things, and the importance of things. If we do this breeding hopefully she would get her first home bred special.....

She is mid 20's and a kinesiologist so movement is something she is very aware of, and as a past National level swimmer is aware how fine differences can mean a lot. Time will show if we do this or not.


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## GSDElsa

You're saying he's a nice dog. But what does he have to bring to the table that IMPROVES your bitch? He could be the nicest dog in the world, it doesn't mean that he is right for her.


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## Liesje

PaddyD said:


> The highlighted text is that to which I was responding. Ergo, I looked at the picture and responded. I thank everyone who tried to interpret my
> lame efforts at expressing my opinion. That's all it was: an opinion based
> on the picture presented. I should couch all my opinions in FWIWs
> and JMHOs. OH, and FWIW, I think Gemma is gorgeous, JMHO.


In general, can we assume that based on the photo of the sire he is going to throw the same structure? I'm not familiar with this dog either, nor do I particularly like him or his structure (from what I've seen which is only a few other pics and video) so I'm not out to defend him or encourage using him as a stud, but I looked at the picture of his son that trudy provided. Based on just that pic alone I actually like the son better than Tattoo as far as ALS/WGSL cross goes. Definitely not enough there either to really say whether the things I like or don't like about Tattoo will be passed to more progeny but what is more helpful, the pics of the dog or the progeny? Just curious as I have one dog that doesn't really resemble the sire or the dam and another that looks exactly how people would predict if you mixed the sire and dam 50/50. That is why I think you (not you personally but in general) need to look at more than just the photo of the sire to see whether the traits in question are even passed down.


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## trudy

this is actually why I had no plans to breed, but understanding my daughter and her thoughts I am considering it. I have no knowledge as to what would happen breeding these 2, I have had discussions on the fact that we should only considder strong line breeding as Gemma is more out cross, as far as ASL can be. Also with the differences in the 2 litters Gemma's and Ty's as to look of the dogs the pups unless closely lign bred could be al over the map. I don't know about that, what I do know is all pups grew into solid tempered dogs relatively easy to train and live with. Hips/elbows are good and so far all are healthy. 

I am sorta uncomfortable with some studs suggested, and had no intensions except for breeders litter, but this kinda interests me..I could see me keep one and see what they turn out like, if we got higher drives, or what. I couldn't stand roaches or weird rears..and that would be my fear. 

BUt what does Gemma need improved?? She has the shortest coat, a wide bitch stripe, wider ear set, and leggy, that may still change with maturity. She moves excellently!!! She has high drives, some times can be a bit dog aggresive but totally under control. Gemma's pedigree:

CH. HELLWIGG'S FANCY FREE OF GEMINI HIC TEC, OVC - German Shepherd Dog


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## trudy

just for more info, Gemma's breeder web site, on the left are links to her litter mates, Ch Strider, Ch Reigner, Eli and of course Ty from the first litter, also both parents have pages Ch Kai(dad), Ch Ronny(mom)

and who Wendy has bred her to Buddy


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## PaddyD

trudy said:


> this is actually why I had no plans to breed, but understanding my daughter and her thoughts I am considering it. I have no knowledge as to what would happen breeding these 2, I have had discussions on the fact that we should only considder strong line breeding as Gemma is more out cross, as far as ASL can be. Also with the differences in the 2 litters Gemma's and Ty's as to look of the dogs the pups unless closely lign bred could be al over the map. I don't know about that, what I do know is all pups grew into solid tempered dogs relatively easy to train and live with. Hips/elbows are good and so far all are healthy.
> 
> I am sorta uncomfortable with some studs suggested, and had no intensions except for breeders litter, but this kinda interests me..I could see me keep one and see what they turn out like, if we got higher drives, or what. I couldn't stand roaches or weird rears..and that would be my fear.
> 
> BUt what does Gemma need improved?? She has the shortest coat, a wide bitch stripe, wider ear set, and leggy, that may still change with maturity. She moves excellently!!! She has high drives, some times can be a bit dog aggresive but totally under control. Gemma's pedigree:
> 
> CH. HELLWIGG'S FANCY FREE OF GEMINI HIC TEC, OVC - German Shepherd Dog


Lot of Sundance in there.


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## Andaka

PaddyD said:


> Lot of Sundance in there.


And your point is????

Sundance Kid (or Bear as he is better known) lived to be over 13, sired many champions, and produced good hips and health in most of his progeny.


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## DunRingill

I haven't bred a litter in a very long time.....in fact if the puppies from my last litter were still alive, they'd be 18 years old. OUCH! Anyway....those puppies were the product of an Am. Show lines bitch (Cobert lines) to a German Show Lines dog (Vopo v Kirschental). I did this breeding twice and got some VERY nice looking dogs, including my Logan who had his Canadian Ch and Groups 1 and 3, with very limited showing. HOWEVER....the mom and dad were very similar in type. People who knew the mom said Logan looked just like his mom. People who knew Vopo, said Logan looked just like him! 

The OP has a very pretty bitch. Not sure I would breed her to a male of a very different type. Breeding dogs isn't like mixing paint, the puppies won't be a "blend" of the 2 parents. Some will look like him, some will look like her, and they'll all carry the genes for 2 very different looking dogs. 

Guess it all depends on what the goal is. Me personally, I can't stand the half dog / half frog look.


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## AgileGSD

PaddyD said:


> I really like MarHaven's Black Jack.



Considering your opinion of Tattoo, that is sort of surprising.

There seems to be a lot of German (both working and show)/American crossing going on in my area and I had a bitch was was 75% GSL, 25% ASL and everything about her looked GSL. Her dam was a a cross between a German showline dog who was not roachy or typical of GSLs and a bitch from older American/Canadian showlines and her sire was a GSL import who was very typical of GSLs. Her dam was not roachy but all 10 puppies were to varying degrees - some hardly noticeable, some moderately roachy. That seems to be typical of what GSL/ASL crosses produce. IMO the GWL/ASL cross tends to produce better structure overall but not necessarily what is going to win in the AKC ring. Also a very important factor to consider is temperament and how the potential pedigrees might mesh in that area. 

That's about all I can offer to this discussion - my personal experience with GSL/ASL crosses. The pictures really are quite different but Tattoo still looks pretty typical of a GSL. His general type, sort of extreme masculinity seems to be quite popular with many GSL and ASL breeders these days but it seems a bit over done to me.


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## BlackthornGSD

I wish owners would stop using pictures that make the dogs look MORE roachy. I really like his looks in his show-win pictures:



















versus.... 












You wouldn't even realize they were all the same dog...


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## Samba

Here are some WGSLxASL dogs who appear to be doing things in several venues.


Males
Nocturne Acres Kennels German Shepherd Dogs

Females
Nocturne Acres Kennels German Shepherd Dogs


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## Xeph

VERY much agree, Christine! His win pics are beautiful. They need to change the PDB photo like, yesterday...


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## cliffson1

Dunringill,
Now the combination that you mentioned I like very very much. Vopo Kirschental was a dog used very successfully in the Bullinger program(if I recall correctly), and was of very nice strucure and temperament. I have many times said the the Cobert dogs were very judicous breeding of the Lance line. Coberts Reno was one of the alltime great ASL dogs in he produced some 58 Champions, but more importantly he consistently threw good sound temperament. Kudos to your past dog.


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## PaddyD

Andaka said:


> And your point is????
> 
> Sundance Kid (or Bear as he is better known) lived to be over 13, sired many champions, and produced good hips and health in most of his progeny.


No point whatsoever, just an observation: Lot of Sundance in there. Thanks to you we now know that it is a good thing.






BlackthornGSD said:


> I wish owners would stop using pictures that make the dogs look MORE roachy. I really like his looks in his show-win pictures:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> versus....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You wouldn't even realize they were all the same dog...


This is excellent. It illustrates my gripe about having to do stacks
in the critique thread. Stacking a dog does not show his natural
state. It is a pose and depending on the stack job could completely
misrepresent what he REALLY looks like. Whoever dreamed up the
idea to stack/stretch GSDs in an unnatural pose should be drawn, quartered, hanged and shot. If other dogs can be 'shown' in a
natural stance, why can't GSDs? OK, so shoot me for thinking
outside the envelope.


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## Samba

I thought all dogs were shown in a stacked position? I see people working on it in conformation class all the time with various breeds. The stance of the GSD is natural. Mine strike that pose all the time naturally. There is correct stacking and there is incorrect stacking. Handlers trying to emphasize this or hide that or just poor work at times.


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## Xeph

> I thought all dogs were shown in a stacked position?


They are...our breed is just the only one not shown four square.



> Mine strike that pose all the time naturally.


Same


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## DunRingill

cliffson1 said:


> Dunringill,
> Now the combination that you mentioned I like very very much. Vopo Kirschental was a dog used very successfully in the Bullinger program(if I recall correctly), and was of very nice strucure and temperament. I have many times said the the Cobert dogs were very judicous breeding of the Lance line. Coberts Reno was one of the alltime great ASL dogs in he produced some 58 Champions, but more importantly he consistently threw good sound temperament. Kudos to your past dog.


Thank you! Logan ended up with Canadian & UKC Ch, Am/Can UD, and SchH1. I learned a ton from him! To be very honest, my working line dogs have been much easier to live with and travel with.....Logan was rather overprotective of me and my van.

Was going thru some old pictures the other day and came across this puppy show pic. Not very well posed, but no roach


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## carmspack

I had no intention of breeding her,

just let the breeder have her 1 litter 

then spay her, 

but my daughter would like to breed 1 litter from Gemma 

. If we do this breeding hopefully she would get her first home bred special.....


Trudy , no intention to breed , now we have two litters thought about?


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## Lucy Dog

carmspack said:


> I had no intention of breeding her,
> 
> just let the breeder have her 1 litter
> 
> then spay her,
> 
> but my daughter would like to breed 1 litter from Gemma
> 
> . If we do this breeding hopefully she would get her first home bred special.....
> 
> 
> Trudy , no intention to breed , now we have two litters thought about?


I was thinking the same thing while reading this thread, but didn't want to be the one who said it. I'm actually surprised it took this many pages.

What's the point of breeding her? You (the op) mentioned earlier she's a special dog, but we all think our pets are special. Doesn't mean they should be bred.


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## Xeph

> Trudy , no intention to breed , now we have two litters thought about?


It sounds to me like there was an agreement made when she bought/got Gemma that the breeder got a litter back, so Trudy herself really has no say in that regard.

The other breeding is more her daughter's desire than hers.

That's my understanding anyway.


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## carmspack

then the breeder would dictate who she is bred to which makes this thread moot,
and if the daughter wanted to breed then she has to do the digging and research

I don't know much of the scuttlebut about GSL other than some dogs being represented as sires when they were not, thereby bringing in DNA requirements .

In ASL there are lots of things that you have to know , dogs running around with pacemakers, dogs knowingly having heart conditions and dying young having had litters, dogs with repaired elbows being bred , dogs with eye problems -- pups not belonging to a litter (padded litter size ) and it goes on and on . 
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack

trudy said:


> I have met this dog many times, I have seen many offspring bred to both GSL and ASL and I love what he is producing. Can anyone tell me anything about his pedigree and any problems they have heard.
> 
> xxxxxx you have all this opportunity to ask the stud owner , and to question the people who have his offspring both GSL and ASL . You love what he is producing on sight , without really knowing too much about them.
> 
> 
> 
> . If I ever breed Gemma for myself I would like to either use this dog or one of his sons, but Gemma's breeder feels that would be wrongV (Can) Ch Tattoo vom Team Zellwaldrand - German Shepherd Dog


 
xxxxxxxxxxxxx contradicting the I don't want to breed him, her breeder does, my daughter does. 
why fret and sweat then about the appropriateness of this stud.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack

Carmen I am NOT looking for a working line dog. I am looking to keep the high drive and strong temperment I already have and thought this might be a way of trying, I like Tattoo,and I have spent some time with him and his owner and the kennel that does the breedings for the owner.

xxxxxxx no of course not because you have no intention of breeding the dog.
\ why would you say "cancer identification, autism dogs, etc...oh yeah and the unspecialized masses that help families in many forms,the many in the news for chasing off wild life, intruders, that get help for injured and ill family members...yep the breed is very good at so many things and the funny part are the high numbers that are the black and tans....hhhmmm...not many WL black and tans..... " 

the only truth here is that there are not many WL black and tans . 
Every working function is having difficulty finding dogs to work , creating the need to look to other breeds such as the malinois or even new creation mixed breeds . Not the breed anymore , individuals of the breed . Harder to come by .

Any way no one was suggesting a working line dog for you , I never suggested anything at all. 

But why would it offend you to use a working line dog ? 

Especially to keep the high drive and strong temperament you already have.

How do you know your dog has high drive and strong temperament. Compared to what ? Tested how? As far back as I can see there have not been any dogs tested for work or temperament for generations, not even basic ckc companion dog . I would need the Hubble telescope to look that far back. 
If you intend to breed and you want to maintain the lovely drive and temperament take the dog out and do some work with it. Test the dog to see what the limitations are . See what you have . 
Don't just go to shows and have dogs lying under your fold up garden chair. 

Don't let " In the protection area, i've never done it, I enjoy watching and do watch when I hear of anything, but I feel too often that the dogs are playing a game, a game for which they know the rules and outcome." deter you from testing your dog .

"\, but I have many times been suggested that a breeding to Gemma was a good idea, xxxxxxxxxxx(but the breeder doesn't want to use this dog)


and I could use any dog at Morris place,xxxxxxxxx
(for a dog you don't intend to breed) 

but my daughter thinks this might be a good match, just thinking and she is trying to learn more so I thought I'd pick some people's brains who know lots more than either of us.[/QUOTE]

xxxxxxxx oh dear 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## cliffson1

@ DunRingill....why an I not surprised that your dog has the credentials that every SL Champion should have as a minimum. Canadian Champion, Utitlity dog, and Sch1.....its the genetics!!!! If I were a reputable American or Canadian SL breeder I would definitely know more about dogs from your boys stock....if it was compatible to my needs. WOW,,,a Canadian Champion with UD and Sch1....this is the type of dog that would lead the ASL/CSL out of the abyss of negative image. Maybe the OP should talk to you about your experiences and traits of your dog...it may be enlightening.


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## Deejays_Owner

cliffson1 said:


> WOW,,,a Canadian Champion with UD and Sch1....this is the type of dog that would lead the ASL/CSL out of the abyss of negative image. Maybe the OP should talk to you about your experiences and traits of your dog...it may be enlightening.


_Don't see that happening, the OP & her Breeder friends it's all about the *movement!!*_



trudy said:


> Carmen I am NOT looking for a working line dog.





trudy said:


> She is mid 20's and a kinesiologist so _*movement*_ is something she is very aware of, and as a past National level swimmer is aware how fine differences can mean a lot.





trudy said:


> She has the shortest coat, a wide bitch stripe, wider ear set, and leggy, that may still change with maturity. She _*moves *_excellently!!!


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## trudy

ACtually Xeph had it right, the breeder gets a litter, and I only am talking because my daughter has suggested this, truthfully Gemma will probably only have the litter for the breeder but I do enjoy talking and thinking and I have picked personally about 50 studs I like, and yet they are fantasy litters often to other people's females, I just like looking and thinking. I just think it is fun to try to match up dogs/pedigrees etc, not to actually raise pups. If I'd planned to be a breeder i would have been breeding for the last 37 years, of owning/showing/training/etc. And the only reason I mentioned my daughter recognising movemetn was to show she knew structure, adn what is correst. She is also trying to find correct temperment and as a matter of interest this morning on the phone she said I should have gone to the Sieger show with her last weekend, she says there are good/bad/better/worst/etc.


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## carmspack

would either Cliff or DunRingill please let me know what lines or what dog is being discussed as the Canadian Champion with the UD -- congrats by the way!!!

I looked at the DunRingill dogs listed on the signature line. They are Sontausen dogs - except for "mike" ? -- The Sontausen I would expect great things from . 
Julia breeds some very nice dogs .
I am jumping ahead of things here , they (one of them) may have the titles you mentioned but they are not from Canadian or American show lines , and that is the difference . 

I've competed , I've mentored, I helped establish the temperament test at the Nationals , I've judged at match level . When you have dogs that get distracted because the ring steward dropped her clipboard , at the far side of the ring nowhere close to the dog , and the dog plays statue while the handler continues with the off leash heel. Or dogs that only compete indoors , or dogs that only compete outdoors. One memorable occassion , judge had placed dogs to down stay with backs to festive (v shaped) flags rimming the ring -- very windy day . Dogs left when the flag started snapping , dogs left when the stimulation of the decorative rope got too much . Broke stays . 
At the biggest event , the Nationals where I got the Obed GV 199.5 / 200 , I had a camera man do a commando crawl right behind my dog on the down stay to get film footage for the evening cable show. 

While I was a member of the GSCof Canada I was always outspoken about getting more obedience trials , more appreciation , recognition for those competing in obedience . Nada . (and worse) 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Deejays_Owner

Carmen
It looks like the leadership of the GSDCC has gone now to the west coast.
The Canadian National was held in British Columbia this year thats a 1st, it's always been in Kitchener.
We were going take a run at the Obedience Victor title, but I'm not going to the west coast for it.

2011 National Specialty Results 

http://gsdcc.homestead.com/National_2011.pdf



> *OBEDIENCE: Only one shepherd was shown and that was as exhibition only.*


Did a quick look did not see any titles at the end of any of the dogs.


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## carmspack

Exactly . And I thought it couldn't get any worse . Silly me !

When the first linked temperament test took place in Kitchener only 3 or 4 dogs passed . Two of those dogs were mine, the other one was Linda Shaw's . 

You had the same lemming behaviour in ASL (CSL - all the same anyway) when there was an inbreeding on Lance creating Zeus and Zeto and then further linebreeding on them , as you did with Canto . Those two dogs set the tone for their respective countries . 



Carmen
http://www.carmspack.


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## Samba

I thought the Canadian Nat'l has long taken a trip out west every few years to accomadate such a large country. I have not heard of any changes and thought I was aware of this pattern in the GSDCC Natl? It is in Kitchener except for the 5th year when it makes its Westward sojourn.


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## Deejays_Owner

Samba said:


> I thought the Canadian Nat'l has long taken a trip out west every few years to accomadate such a large country. I have not heard of any changes and thought I was aware of this pattern in the GSDCC Natl? It is in Kitchener except for the 5th year when it makes its Westward sojourn.


*Thanks*, did not know about the 1 out of 5 yrs deal with the west coast.
I just always remember Kitchener, and when I was going to enter this year it was on the west coast. 
And people that I knew that were on the board for years were all from ON.


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## Samba

Actually, I know ASL breeders who go to WGSL and WL in their breedings. They do schutzhund training also. Based on the vast numbers of CHs and GVs they have bred and handled, I would say they are very much in tune with movement, even of the specialty type. They don't want to lose the dogs to diminishing temperament and nerve problems. Their goal is a competitive show dog but they realize when the dumps are hit regards breeding ,the dogs don't show well either. I was ringside the other day when a big handler/bredder was beaming while showing off his part German bitch's drive and powerful barking. She finished easily with big majors and is most definitely Natl level show material. At another show, I heard him talking to puppy buyer about his breeding with DDR lines in it.


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## Andaka

Samba, would you tell me who has DDR in their breedings? I want to keep an eye out for them.


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## cliffson1

In reference to the OP, if the ASL are in fine condition as some have emphatically proclaimed in this thread, WHY are people trying to mix them with GSL or DDR. What is to be gained??????


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## Andaka

For the same reason that you might stay within a line to breed -- if my bitch has A, B, and C going for her, but I want improvement in X, Y, or Z, why do we have to stick with in a type to do it? Isn't it supposed to be one breed?


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## Samba

I don't know why you would have to stick within a certain line for breeding. They are all Germam Shepherds.


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## trudy

I really understand why people don't like to ask questions, WOW Carmen what did I do to you??? And DeeJay I hope next year you get Obedience Grand Victor. Now I think I'll just sign off, I am lucky Gemma comes into heat every 4.5 months so we can probably get 8-10 litters from her, and I think there is a dog on the next block that looks nice.. Thanks


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## cliffson1

@ Daphne...OK sounds good!!


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## BUBBAGSD

Hi Deejay

The nationals will be returning to kitchener next year


----------



## Noodles

No kidding you guys really tore into her. I read the thread because I wondered the same question. Would bringing in GSL blood improve ASL's and beyond the few who did help and stayed on track with the original topic, most of it was a hate fest on the OP. This should be a place for learning. From what I know of her which is very little and probably the same that you all do she knows her situation and her dog better than us. She doesn't come off as a byb or puppy mill so why jump down her throat for actually putting time and thought into a breeding decision.


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## ninemaplefarm

Noodles said:


> No kidding you guys really tore into her. I read the thread because I wondered the same question. Would bringing in GSL blood improve ASL's and beyond the few who did help and stayed on track with the original topic, most of it was a hate fest on the OP. This should be a place for learning. From what I know of her which is very little and probably the same that you all do she knows her situation and her dog better than us. She doesn't come off as a byb or puppy mill so why jump down her throat for actually putting time and thought into a breeding decision.


Because that's, unfortunately, how people are here. They are *incredibly snarky* and know everything.

Sorry to the OP. Welcome to the wonderful world of the GSD forum. 

I have learned to just try to ignore the snipers but it can be difficult. Hope you still try to stick around as we are all not like that.

Also, like Noodles, I felt it was a great question you asked about what GSL would compliment the ASL and I was hoping for a nice discussion. Bummer.

But, don't get too discouraged from this thread and best of luck with your nice Bitch!!


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## horsegirl

trudy said:


> I have met this dog many times, I have seen many offspring bred to both GSL and ASL and I love what he is producing. Can anyone tell me anything about his pedigree and any problems they have heard. I also want to know what people think about mixing lines. If I ever breed Gemma for myself I would like to either use this dog or one of his sons, but Gemma's breeder feels that would be wrong as she feels we would get the roach and weird rear, but this dog has a nice moderate rear, and can be stacked without the roach and actually was in the top 25 in the breed in CAn shows last year, with many group placements, yet shown only limitedly.
> *V (Can) Ch Tattoo vom Team Zellwaldrand*
> 
> 
> V (Can) Ch Tattoo vom Team Zellwaldrand - German Shepherd Dog


hi, the bitch is backed by some pretty nice ASL dogs. It is important to know that if we are going to do this type of breeding , we as ASL breeders need to make sure that the bottom side is really strong .


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## ninemaplefarm

horsegirl said:


> hi, the bitch is backed by some pretty nice ASL dogs. It is important to know that if we are going to do this type of breeding , we as ASL breeders need to make sure that the bottom side is really strong .


Thank you, horsegirl.

When you say strong do you mean in producing structure, movement, temperament or all the above?

I think this has the potential to be a very exciting cross!

Also, I wonder on a GWL cross bred to an ASL or vice versa. Has anyone ever done that besides Darby Dan or was Jim GSL?

I wonder if anyone has taken a GWL bitch and bred to a ASL stud with good results?


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## Xeph

Jim was show lines.


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## robk

ASLs need all the help they can get! If the goal is to produce good solid healthy dogs then some genetic diversity can only help. I think it is a great I dea to mix in some Imported stock on a regular basis to continually improve the American line dogs.


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## ninemaplefarm

robk said:


> ASLs need all the help they can get! If the goal is to produce good solid healthy dogs then some genetic diversity can only help. I think it is a great I dea to mix in some Imported stock on a regular basis to continually improve the American line dogs.


Well, I would rephrase that "*Some* ASLs need help"-maybe with nerve, color, secondary sex characteristics. Just like some GSL need help getting rid of that roach back and their front legs camped too far under body instead of at corners. Or, some GWL need help with type, coat, movement and being toned down a couple notches in temperament and drive.

All the lines need help as each line has their strengths and weaknesses. But, of course, we all know it's really about the actual dogs and not necessarily their lines!! We just use the lines as a rule of thumb for generalizations!


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## robk

"Or, some GWL need help with type, coat, movement and being toned down a couple notches in temperament and drive."

I hope this comment is a joke. Look at the way the ASL dogs in the first video posted in thread moved and tell me that is the way the German Shepherd is suppose to move. They could barely walk. And why would you want to tone down the temperament and drive of a WORKING LINE German shepherd? How do you expect them to have the resiliency to WORK with a low drive or week temperament?


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## ninemaplefarm

robk said:


> "Or, some GWL need help with type, coat, movement and being toned down a couple notches in temperament and drive."
> 
> I hope this comment is a joke. Look at the way the ASL dogs in the first video posted in thread moved and tell me that is the way the German Shepherd is suppose to move. They could barely walk. And why would you want to tone down the temperament and drive of a WORKING LINE German shepherd? How do you expect them to have the resiliency to WORK with a low drive or week temperament?


Nope. No joke.

I don't consider a sport/ring dog a "working" dog.

To me, a working dog is a service dog; herding dog; SAR dog; or military/police dog. Plus, type does matter. A dog should look like the breed standard with proper coat and eyes( biggest faults I see in GWL other than sharp, hyper dispositions).

I think the majority of dogs that end up in shelters are GWL as they can be too over the top for the average owner. Only a select group of population can own and train this type of dog as they are mostly bred for sport competition. So, I think some of them can be toned down a bit to make for a more biddable
dog.

Oh, BTW....I know this will come as a shock to you but not all ASL dogs are crap!!

I think there are strengths and weaknesses in each line.

It makes sense to mix the lines.

There are good and bad dogs of each "type". I can appreciate good individuals in each line!

Instead of attacking each other, I wish we could all just support each other and admit that no type is perfect.

We should try to help combine the types into what the GSD should be.....

No line or type is better than another.

Oh, sorry if this posts repeats or sentences are randomly added I am on hand held!!

I appreciate your opinion and am not trying to say all WL dogs should be watered down! That *would* be insane!!! 

It makes sense to me to mix the lines together.


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## cliffson1

This post is not about lines, just what I have experienced....the majority of GS in shelters are NOT WL; as they are usually rehomed with people who know how to channel their traits effectively, or often to police/military or SAR use. The majority of dogs I have seen in shelters are Black and Tan dogs that because of weak nerves are either sharp or shy. Its my experience that dogs with solid nerves are easy to place or rehome....where dogs with weak nerves often languish in shelters because they are a liability and if shy very difficult to manage and enjoy. This is just my experiences...others may be different.


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## ninemaplefarm

Interesting. I respect your experience and opinion.

My point was there is good and bad in all types and combining the lines seems to make sense to me!!

But, each camp thinks there type if dog is perfect. Sigh.

For what it's worth, I own GWL but I don't think they are ALL perfect or that EVERY ASL is crap!

I like lots about each type including GSL but I also recognize faults in each......


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## cliffson1

Contrary to what people may think, I like all types of German Shepherds. I think a good dog is a good dog, I get many many pm's and emails asking me about "what to expect or what will fill what they want". I take very seriously what advice I give to people and try my best to ensure that if they follow my advice it won't be regretted later. In doing this, its necessary to give advice that has the highest probability of meeting the people's needs. I am well aware that their are good dogs in every line, but it is important for me to be sure that whatever I recommend the odds are good that the dog will represent the needs and breed. I am sure there are some breeders breeding American lines that are very sound in structure and temperament. Just as when I saw the Dungill's mix of American and WGSL, I was pretty sure that the dog was an excellent representative of the breed in all aspects. 
I get it that people don't want to hear the shortcomings of a particular line or dog....but the genetics of some dogs are more conducive to having shortcomings that will negatively affect the breed or your program for generations. Genetics is science and usually holds true to form.....of course there are exceptions, but I'm sure nobody makes critical decisions in their life on exceptions. I try not to also. 
In conclusion, I will refrain from pointing out shortcomings that are genetic from this point onward, so everyone can not feel bashed. But my purpose has never been to bash, but to educate to the best of my ability. 
Maybe, I take this whole breed too seriously....lol...now if you do want an honest assessment on any dog, pedigree, or line, if I am knowledgeable please pm me and i will try my best to help. 
Peace to everyone, and I'm sorry, if people felt i was being hurtful.


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## Jack's Dad

Cliff: 

Keep the knowledge coming. 
After reading many of the threads on breeding, bloodlines, pedigrees etc.. ,Iv'e come to the conclusion that *some* people on either side of the show vs working will feel like the bashee if someone on the other side makes anthing that resembles a negative remark. You could put up a picture of a two headed GSD of either line. Then in order to be politically correct no one is supposed to say hey, that's a two headed ( take your pick working/showline) GSD. If you were to say that, then you would become either the basher or the bashee. It doesn't matter if it's the truth. Lots of sensitive folks.
You and many of the other breeders have a tremendous amount of knowledge to impart. Please continue to do so. Some people are offended if you say good morning to them. Forget about them. Just keep teaching about this breed.


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## Lucy Dog

100% agreed with Andy about cliff. Don't sugar coat anything. Just keep on teaching... there's plenty of us listening and ready to learn.


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## horsegirl

ninemaplefarm said:


> Thank you, horsegirl.
> 
> When you say strong do you mean in producing structure, movement, temperament or all the above?
> 
> I think this has the potential to be a very exciting cross!
> 
> Also, I wonder on a GWL cross bred to an ASL or vice versa. Has anyone ever done that besides Darby Dan or was Jim GSL?
> 
> I wonder if anyone has taken a GWL bitch and bred to a ASL stud with good results?


each one of the three are just as important as the other in my opinion. 
I would be interested in see how pups from this cross turn out .


----------



## Konotashi

trudy said:


> I am lucky Gemma comes into heat every 4.5 months so we can probably get 8-10 litters from her, and I think there is a dog on the next block that looks nice.. Thanks


I really, really hope you're not serious.


----------



## Xeph

> I really, really hope you're not serious.


I thought it was pretty clear she was being facetious...largely because she felt insulted that people seemed to be talking to her like she was a complete twit


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## Samba

Obviously, tongue in cheek after the exchanges that had preceeded.


----------



## ninemaplefarm

cliffson1 said:


> Contrary to what people may think, I like all types of German Shepherds. I think a good dog is a good dog, I get many many pm's and emails asking me about "what to expect or what will fill what they want". I take very seriously what advice I give to people and try my best to ensure that if they follow my advice it won't be regretted later. In doing this, its necessary to give advice that has the highest probability of meeting the people's needs. I am well aware that their are good dogs in every line, but it is important for me to be sure that whatever I recommend the odds are good that the dog will represent the needs and breed. I am sure there are some breeders breeding American lines that are very sound in structure and temperament. Just as when I saw the Dungill's mix of American and WGSL, I was pretty sure that the dog was an excellent representative of the breed in all aspects.
> I get it that people don't want to hear the shortcomings of a particular line or dog....but the genetics of some dogs are more conducive to having shortcomings that will negatively affect the breed or your program for generations. Genetics is science and usually holds true to form.....of course there are exceptions, but I'm sure nobody makes critical decisions in their life on exceptions. I try not to also.
> In conclusion, I will refrain from pointing out shortcomings that are genetic from this point onward, so everyone can not feel bashed. But my purpose has never been to bash, but to educate to the best of my ability.
> Maybe, I take this whole breed too seriously....lol...now if you do want an honest assessment on any dog, pedigree, or line, if I am knowledgeable please pm me and i will try my best to help.
> Peace to everyone, and I'm sorry, if people felt i was being hurtful.


I think that is great of you to say! I also think it is a very good idea for you; me; and all of us to try to be more constructive in our criticism.

We can all, respectfully, disagree at times but, you know...it's always the way we deliver the message that counts!


----------



## cliffson1

Right Ninemaplefarm!
As a classic example ....I think the message is far more important than the delivery.....but people see things different and I guess you have to stay true to yourself.
TC


----------



## ninemaplefarm

cliffson1 said:


> Right Ninemaplefarm!
> As a classic example ....I think the message is far more important than the delivery.....but people see things different and I guess you have to stay true to yourself.
> TC


Hahaha...well, my friend, this is what we call being _diplomatic_ in the real world!! Trust me, it's not my strong suit either but I am working on trying to get the right message across in such a way as to not offend. It can be done!! But, it does take time......baby steps!!


----------



## Samba

Interesting. I have to say that over the years, I have seen silly comments meant only to insult on boards regarding lines. But, I have never noticed that from Cliff. He says the same things my acquaintances with years invested in the lines say and put in print in national publications! I guess one can only assess or critique from the inside?


----------



## cliffson1

LOL, You know I was a Politician for 15 years. Five three year terms, President of City Council for 4 years. Prided myself on being diplomatic, but also always maintaining the truth the best I could see it. After 5 terms, I gave it up because people didn't want to hear the truth....they felt better if you told them what they wanted to hear...I couldn't do it. The similarities in the two worlds is amazing....now back on track to the OP.


----------



## Vandal

> I gave it up because people didn't want to hear the truth....they felt better if you told them what they wanted to hear...I couldn't do it. The similarities in the two worlds is amazing....now back on track to the OP.


I think this is true in the entire world. Not certain if people have become more susceptable to manipulation or if it was always this way. Just like dogs, I will not spend more than what _should be necessary to _reassure a person. They either have the ability to withstand a little "discomfort", or they don't. 
If people need too much of that, they are not going to hear what you have to say anyway. Just like if you pepper them with insults, all they tend to hear is that, if you smother them in compliments, that is also what they hear. The facts and reality get lost in all of it.

If you want to hear the truth, you will not be hooked in by the rest. There are still people who can handle the truth, and my efforts will be directed there.


----------



## Vandal

I also think if Trudy likes that male and she is certain the temperament of both dogs fit the standard or is at least pretty close, she should try the breeding. People need to see for themselves. 
Not saying it is going to be bad or good, I have no idea. Just saying.


----------



## AgileGSD

ninemaplefarm said:


> I think the majority of dogs that end up in shelters are GWL as they can be too over the top for the average owner. Only a select group of population can own and train this type of dog as they are mostly bred for sport competition. So, I think some of them can be toned down a bit to make for a more biddable
> dog.



It's easy to see and guess that the majority of GSDs in shelters are pet bred dogs. That is the sort of GSD the majority of average owners have access to and really they make up the largest group of GSDs produced in the country. Overall, it seems pretty uncommon to find well bred GSDs in shelters.


----------



## Samba

Yes, mostly pet bred dogs in the pounds and shelters here. WL don't come along too often, but we keep our eyes out. Recently got one, but only because the owner has some time to spend paying his debt to society. 

In spite of her formative time spent in the pound for many months while court ensued and then months in rescue...a solid girl who is now a family companion and beginning training for competition at 8 months old.


----------



## ninemaplefarm

Samba said:


> Interesting. I have to say that over the years, I have seen silly comments meant only to insult on boards regarding lines. But, I have never noticed that from Cliff. He says the same things my acquaintances with years invested in the lines say and put in print in national publications! I guess one can only assess or critique from the inside?


Samba...the comments were for all of us, myself included, and not directed, specifically at Cliff. This whole forum is just getting really snarky and I do not think it's necessary. Just hoping we could all try to get along. I felt bad for the OP...


----------



## Samba

Yes, I see that it was a general remark rrgarding an a thing overall.


----------



## Andaka

ninemaplefarm said:


> Thank you, horsegirl.
> 
> When you say strong do you mean in producing structure, movement, temperament or all the above?
> 
> I think this has the potential to be a very exciting cross!
> 
> Also, I wonder on a GWL cross bred to an ASL or vice versa. Has anyone ever done that besides Darby Dan or was Jim GSL?
> 
> I wonder if anyone has taken a GWL bitch and bred to a ASL stud with good results?


Jim was show lines.


----------



## carmspack

I wonder if anyone has taken a GWL bitch and bred to a ASL stud with good results?

Yes I have -- my female black Carmspack Katiana to Linda Shaw's ASL male Ch Mensenredders Cory Wiesental - Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs
then "Timmy" (Easter Parade) Sch H 3 , major Ch points was taken to Carmspack Kohl - black working and the result was Kato same page.
It's not that you do it , but who you do it with.

Carmen
http://www.carmspack.com


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## Lucy Dog

Wow...Did not expect that, Carmen. Didn't take you for much of a ASL person. 

If you don't mind me asking... why did you choose to breed to that specific ASL dog and what were you trying to accomplish with the breeding?


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## carmspack

Hi Paul --- that is what I keep saying , in my lines I have diversity . I have German show , Czech working , bred to DDR years before the CKC had a provision for recognizing them for registration - worked almost 3 years to get a policy - and then the wall fell ! - German working . I look at the dog . I am not a purist of any sort . When I criticize it is against the fanatic , gene narrowing , compromise making specialities that have split the breed like so many pieces of broken glass.
Haved a look at SEL CAN & AM CH Winning Ways Chimo - German Shepherd Dog

Carmspack Sumo - German Shepherd Dog

here is Chunko who went to nationals -- a dog with genetic obedience that many times got special mention as decoys choice -- judges commenting on his hardness and fight drive , yet an 8 year old boy could lead him away from the field to the car to get something and back Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs
His father and one of his other sons are working police dogs of note. Their father is a high in trial Sch H praised by the likes of Gunter Diegel and the Vollraths - yet his mother has american show lines.

I have his brother and he produces services dogs 

I make the effort to see that the breed has a future . 

I put a premium on stable temperament, coping skills, ability to adapt, medium high to high thresholds , natural talent that is bred and not made.

Linda and I have been friends for over 30 years. I knew this dogs background well , having had hands on experience with several of his ancestors . I handled in the ring . I handled american show dogs, specialty and all breed. 
I produced many Champions including one that went Best in Breed and High in Trial at the same show . 
I produced ROM bitches.

I knew Cory through French ring which I introduced Linda to after my Kilo got his Brevet . I was having way too much fun and wanted to share the experience. Cory- a dog entering this discipline from ground zero with nothing more than being an excellent breed ambassador , never any nonsense of ill behaviour , and show ring experience . He took to it , learned quickly , enjoyed himself , never needed to be coddled or given any treatment different from the rest. Too bad he had not participated earlier .

If you don't expect it , then you won't get it . 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Lucy Dog

carmspack said:


> I put a premium on stable temperament, coping skills, ability to adapt, medium high to high thresholds , natural talent that is bred and not made.


As a potential puppy buyer (if i was)... this is exactly what I'd be looking for in a breeder. This right here would be my opinion of "the perfect dog". 

Thanks for the explanation, carmen... very informative.


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## carmspack

I should have said that my foundation line began with 'american' show some 35 years ago . My first breeding was to american show -- I will have to get that pedigree up on the data base . Amazing male that I met at an obedience competition. Owned by Bonnie Kirchner . Antar's Apache Joe Am Can CDX TDX as was his father J B 's Apollo of Vasold -- Joe sired a litter of 11 pups all of which got their TD at one year of age and I believe 9 of them got the TDX the following year. Bonnie had some excellent dogs 
The dogs then are not the dogs now.
Increasingly the temperament became flakier . 
I never saw GSL's working in schutzhund at the level that they do now. They used to be good before Canto. 
American show lines were fairly recent with German backgrounds.
Hammer , Reno, Paladen -- Mike , Quaestor they had some good character.
There were no colour hang ups -- and that goes for GSL and all the niche breeders who breed for black sables , blacks etc.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Lucy Dog

Do you think more breeders should be mixing lines like you mentioned in the last couple posts or do you think it should be left up to the "experts" or the breeders who actually understand the pedigrees. We all know how breeders don't always take pedigrees in perspective when breeding. At least not to the level that other breeders are.

You really don't see a lot of the "mash up" of lines that you mentioned. Typically it's just WGSL being bred to WGSL dogs. And DDR dogs to DDR dogs... etc, etc. You really don't see a lot of ASL x GSL x working lines in pedigrees that are "reputably" bred these days. I honestly didn't even think it existed. 

Is this something you think there should be more of? I'd think if you didn't know what you were doing and you mixed these lines that it could possibly produce disasters. We're also seeing disasters when the lines aren't mixed though.

Just wondering how you feel on the subject. Would you like to see more of this kind of breeding?


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## Andaka

I have a young dog that is 3/4 ASL, and 1/4 DDR. He is a phenominal obedience dog -- forgiving to corrections, good work ethic, and excellent focus. He is in training to be my service dog -- helping with laundry, picking up things from the floor, balancing me as I go up the stairs, pulling me up from a chair. He also has points toward his AKC championship.

Deestraum-Andaka's Jagged Edge - German Shepherd Dog


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## wildo

I have not read through this thread, but I do have a somewhat related (and probably dumb) question.

The thread title is- a GSL *stud* to improve the ASLs. Does the sex matter? Assuming that a GSL dog of either sex actually could make a difference- it _could_ be a GSL bitch that improves the American Show Lines, correct?


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## Xeph

> it _could_ be a GSL bitch that improves the American Show Lines, correct?


Could be...but it's easier to get a stud dog. Bitches are valuable, and have a limited breeding life. Studs can be bred after they're dead, which is why they're a "dime a dozen".

Why would a GSL bitch owner "waste" a breeding to an American stud dog?


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## PaddyD

Xeph said:


> Could be...but it's easier to get a stud dog. Bitches are valuable, and have a limited breeding life. Studs can be bred after they're dead, which is why they're a "dime a dozen".
> 
> Why would a GSL bitch owner "waste" a breeding to an American stud dog?


Just guessing but for the same reason an ASL bitch owner would "waste" a breeding to a GSL stud dog?


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## wildo

Xeph said:


> Why would a GSL bitch owner "waste" a breeding to an American stud dog?


Probably getting into political areas I know nothing about. I'll keep my answer as an honest, absolute guess- To improve the ASL lines out of love of the breed? haha...


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## Xeph

There's a reason "waste" was in quotes, PaddyD, but go on and make your assumptions.


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## lhczth

If you pay attention to the old time breeders, they would take their best females with the strong temperament and working ability to the males to improve structure. If I were to do this I would take a very good GSL bitch to the ASL male. JMO.


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## Lucy Dog

lhczth said:


> If you pay attention to the old time breeders, they would take their best females with the strong temperament and working ability to the males to improve structure. If I were to do this I would take a very good GSL bitch to the ASL male. JMO.


You think the ASL's have better structure than the GSL's?


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## Liesje

I think she means within the context of this thread, crossing ASL and GSL. Some would do it the other way around (the OP has an ASL bitch).


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## PaddyD

Xeph said:


> There's a reason "waste" was in quotes, PaddyD, but go on and make your assumptions.


Just looking at it from the other side of the 'fence'.


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## lhczth

Lucy Dog said:


> You think the ASL's have better structure than the GSL's?


That's one way of looking at it. 

If I were to cross the two lines this is how I would do it. I think the GSL could gain some things in structure from the ASL and I think the ASL could gain a lot in temperament/Character from the GSL. JMNSHO.


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## Xeph

> Just looking at it from the other side of the 'fence'.


Really have no idea what you mean, but *shrug*



> I think the GSL could gain some things in structure from the ASL and I think the ASL could gain a lot in temperament/Character from the GSL.


Agreed


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## cliffson1

I agree with Lisa 1000 %. Breeding starts with quality females, and the number one ingredient in the quality female would be temperament first, structure second. I can pick up structure from the male to some degree, but I won't look to have the male compensate temperament on a weak female. I also would go with GSL female and ASL male, if I were to do this type breeding. Regardless of the outward expression of the either line female, I would go with the female that is stronger in temperament AND has the strongest history of temperament. And this would be for breeding for a show dog or working dog.


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## wildo

cliffson1 said:


> Breeding starts with quality females, and the number one ingredient in the quality female would be temperament first, structure second. I can pick up structure from the male to some degree, but I won't look to have the male compensate temperament on a weak female.


I don't know if there's really anything more you can say about this, but... is there? I mean- _why_ would a male not be able to compensate a poor tempered female? _Why_ can a male compensate a poor structured female?


To someone like me who really doesn't know anything about this stuff- those are very odd statements (*not* that I don't believe you). I guess I am asking- is there some sort of genetic disposition to favoring the female's temperament genes and the male's structure genes in progeny? (Because that's very cool if true. )


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## PaddyD

wildo said:


> I don't know if there's really anything more you can say about this, but... is there? I mean- _why_ would a male not be able to compensate a poor tempered female? _Why_ can a male compensate a poor structured female?
> 
> 
> To someone like me who really doesn't know anything about this stuff- those are very odd statements (*not* that I don't believe you). I guess I am asking- is there some sort of genetic disposition to favoring the female's temperament genes and the male's structure genes in progeny? (Because that's very cool if true. )


Thank you for asking the question. It seems an obvious one to ask.
But if I remember correctly you are a software engineer (like I was for 43 years) and we like
to consider the inverse logic too.


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## wildo

Yes I am...


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## carmspack

Lucy Dog said:


> Do you think more breeders should be mixing lines like you mentioned in the last couple posts or do you think it should be left up to the "experts" or the breeders who actually understand the pedigrees. We all know how breeders don't always take pedigrees in perspective when breeding. At least not to the level that other breeders are.
> 
> You really don't see a lot of the "mash up" of lines that you mentioned. Typically it's just WGSL being bred to WGSL dogs. And DDR dogs to DDR dogs... etc, etc. You really don't see a lot of ASL x GSL x working lines in pedigrees that are "reputably" bred these days. I honestly didn't even think it existed.
> 
> Is this something you think there should be more of? I'd think if you didn't know what you were doing and you mixed these lines that it could possibly produce disasters. We're also seeing disasters when the lines aren't mixed though.
> 
> Just wondering how you feel on the subject. Would you like to see more of this kind of breeding?


 
The sire was very balanced and totally stable, tested for it through French ring and some of the k9 officers that we know as friends . The dog was supported by the head of the entire unit, he gave him the thumbs up.
The problem is that many of the ASL have not been tested for anything whatsoever , not even a simple TT or CD . There is where the problem lies . Dogs slip by generation by generation just loosing any semblance of work temperament or even good standard temperament. It is what you select for.

The mother of this cross effort is very strong , in pedigree and in personality , in genotype and in phenotype . She was a tough one - even Linda says this on her site and she lived with Katia (katya) . Katia could compete with the best males and be right up there.

The result was perfect -- golden middling it , the best of both sets of genetic Shawlein Easter Parade Sch H 3 major champ points.

I know another kennel that does this though they have not added any recent ASL - 

You have to know the dogs involved.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## BlackGSD

IMO, one (but not the only.) reason for not using a female with a weak temperament is that SHE is the one that raises the pups. While chances are good that they will never even so much as see the male


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## Andaka

wildo said:


> I don't know if there's really anything more you can say about this, but... is there? I mean- _why_ would a male not be able to compensate a poor tempered female? _Why_ can a male compensate a poor structured female?
> 
> 
> To someone like me who really doesn't know anything about this stuff- those are very odd statements (*not* that I don't believe you). I guess I am asking- is there some sort of genetic disposition to favoring the female's temperament genes and the male's structure genes in progeny? (Because that's very cool if true. )


Because the puppies are with the mother for the first weeks of their lives. She has a bigger impact on them thru imprinting at that young age. A weak tempered bitch (shyness, sound sensitivity) could cause tmeperament issues that are harder to overcome at a later age.


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## carmspack

she also contributes more genetically -- 
by the way Andaka your male has a very nice "ddr" head .


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## cliffson1

Carmen, that's right. She also contributes more genetically when you get into the X's and Y's.


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## JakodaCD OA

this was my ASL/DDR male , of course I'm biased, but he was "perfect" I should have cloned him  

"Dodge"


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## PaddyD

cliffson1 said:


> Carmen, that's right. She also contributes more genetically when you get into the X's and Y's.


How is it that the female contributes more genetically?
X and Y only determine sex and that is a complete coin toss.
The genetic contribution is more based on dominant and recessive genes and those
can be contributed by either male or female.


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## Andaka

The "X" chromosome is larger than the "Y" pne.


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## BlackthornGSD

Andaka said:


> The "X" chromosome is larger than the "Y" pne.


It's got a whole extra leg!


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## PaddyD

Andaka said:


> The "X" chromosome is larger than the "Y" pne.


A dog has 78 chromosomes. The sex-determining pair only determine sex.
The other chromosomes determine genetics and can come from male or female on an equal opportunity basis.


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## Andaka

But their oare other genes on the sex chromosomes besides the ones for determining sex. Hemophilia being one of the possibilities -- it is carried on the "X" chromosome. That is why there are many more males that have it than females. It is a ressesive gene, so there needs to be two copies of it for the disease to happen.


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## wildo

Andaka said:


> Hemophilia being one of the possibilities -- it is carried on the "X" chromosome. That is why there are many more males that have it than females. It is a ressesive gene, so there needs to be two copies of it for the disease to happen.


Then a male should never get it since a male has an X and a Y chromosome. If two X's are required (since it's recessive) then the male (with two X's) would actually be... female. 

Edit- nevermind. Wasn't thinking about that right. If a male carried the disease in its X chromosome, and he was bread to a female that was a carrier, then offspring could get positively carry.


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## BR870

wildo said:


> Then a male should never get it since a male has an X and a Y chromosome. If two X's are required (since it's recessive) then the male (with two X's) would actually be... female.


No, if I remember back to biology. A recessive on the X will express in a male if the Y has no corresponding dominant gene to cover it....

...I think


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## wildo

Oh... I now that you say that- I think I also remember that... Good point!


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## Andaka

Or like in cats were the color gene is carried on the X chromosome -- males cats are a single color (black or orange not counting the modifiers) and only females can be two colors (calico). White doesn't count as it is on a different chromosome.


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## PaddyD

Saying all of that: Since a female carries 2 Xs then she has a greater 'opportunity' to receive contributions equally from dad and mom. But since a male carries an X and Y he is more likely to take after mom because her X is bigger than dad's Y.
hhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmm


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## Samba

What a difference a little piece of chromatin makes!


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## GSDElsa

your x and y chromosomes are SO much more than just determining your sex!


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