# How's this for a first post back:(



## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

I haven't been on in ages ended up having surgery for my crohn's which was quickly followed by my daughter needing multiple surgeries for a collapsed eustatian tube that would just not open. The past few months have definitely been a little crazy but finally the light at the end of the tunnel arrived and things were finally back to normal. 

Many of you know my precious Zoe was scheduled to be spayed at 18 months, but because of my surgeries and then my daughters we have canceled 3 times. When she is in heat our male goes to my in-laws and this has been an awesome solution to keeping the waters calm until yesterday. Henry has been there for about a week and a half while Zoe is in her receptive stage. I like normal put her in the crate and went off to work. For some stupid reason my father in-law needed to come by our house for something and decides to let Henry the car loving dog come with....he should have known better. Then he further stupifies me by bringing Henry inside and letting Zoe out to potty at least leaving Henry inside, but upon letting her back in apparently all heck broke loose. The bottom line is Henry locked on her and him not knowing better pulled him off severely damaging his penis. My boy underwent surgery yesterday and will be home to the in-laws not our house this afternoon until we know Zoe is no longer in heat. $1500.00 later I am now that irresponsible pet owner and my boy could have died.

So the next step for me is making sure I do not bring any unwanted puppies into the world though the options are scaring me. First of all I can only assume she is pregnant so I have to do something. I have read up and discussed several options with our vet but I have no experience with any of this. A shot could be administered, but the side effects from large amounts of estrogen were horrendous and our vet will not use this method though other's will- I don't like the risks I am hearing about with this. We could also spay now though with her being in heat there is an increased risk of bleeding and infection, we can wait and spay in a about a month but that same risk is there and by then she would be well into gestation. They can also administer shots a few times a day to induce abortion with a safer hormone/chemical but that requires a 5-7 stay there round the clock and is hard on the female. I need a little guidance here to make sure I am not a back yard breeder in 2 months and my girl is treated with the least risk.

And yes flame away I have already beat myself up a dozen and a half times since yesterday, reamed my father in-law out, and pulled half our savings out to do the right thing now. I am sharing this for advice, but also as a note for those who prolong speuter to make sure everyone on board understands why the rules are so important. My lab's injuries are terrible and almost prompted amputation of the penis because they believed it to severed further down in the sheath, he lost a lot of blood which may have damaged his internal organs, and was very close to death from loss of blood. We were fortunate our vet is a full service animal hospital and only 2 miles from our house because this same scenario could have turned out so much worse.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Sounds to me like an absolute accident. You weren't even there. No reaming here. :hugs:


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## Chance&Reno (Feb 21, 2012)

Wow. I am so sorry you are experiencing this. I hope your lab makes a full recovery. I was in that situation, and finished reaming out my FIL, I would let her have the puppies. It seems to be the safest route of them all. I would offer the puppies (temperment appropriate) to an organization who work with mentally disabled people or the elderly. I work with an Autism association who train dogs to be therapy dogs/service dogs. It would help them out not to have to spend money on puppies, but to get them for free. That would probably offset my guilt of the whole situation. The guilt wouldn't be for the breeding, since I wasn't there and it wasn't my own personal fault, but the guilt would be from trusting someone else. 
Poor babies


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Just do the spay as soon as she is out of heat, and if it bothers you, tell them to not tell you if she was preg. or not.
That's what we do in rescue and the girls are always fine.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

I am so sorry about your boy, hope he does well. As far as Zoey, wait until she is out of heat and then spay her immediately. In the first couple of weeks of being pregnant, the "eggs" have not even attached to the uterus wall yet, they are free floating. They usually attach around day 15 after breeding, that is why you can't even palpate pregnancies until around day 26 or so after breeding, until they attach to the uterus to continue pregnancy,they are not considered pregnant, but bred. There is a difference spaying her at that point as opposed to spaying her right now during heat, less blood and such. However, we spay girls in heat all the time or right after heat, especially if bred unintentionally and have not have issues. We charge a bit more for spaying in heat, but if she is young and not fat, the bleeding issues are not as bad.By the third week of heat, most of the bleeding has stopped, and her uterus is starting to get settled down. Don't let her go through a pregnancy, at this point , if she is pregnant, they will not have even attached and therefore she is not "really" pregnant at all. 
You are not a bad dog owner, accidents happen and you have done more to keep them apart than most folks do, housing him at the inlaws. You had no idea this would happen, your father in law was trying to help with the dogs with all the other issues you have had...
Just breathe and relax. Your boy sounds like he will be fine, spay your girl regardless of her possibly being bred as soon as she is out of heat and move on.
Good luck


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Honestly, I see no reason to flame you. You did everything possible you could to prevent this. Stop beating yourself up.

As for your female, I may be on the unpopular side of the vote, but considering the risks, if it was me, I'd go full term with the pregnancy, then spay as soon as she is able to go in. 

For the pups, adoption fee and this may make it longer before they are adopted, but with contract that applies to training, s/n and returned to you if the family is unable to care for them. Makes it hard for you, but would hopefully prevent future litters and/or your pups ending up in a rescue.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Why would anyone suggest bringing a litter of mixed breed puppies in the world and assume you could give them away to an organization?Or find good adopters? There are enough mixed breed puppies available to anyone or organization that wants them?, yet the humane societies and papers are full of give away puppies

Why should the OP be made to feel guilty for something happening while she was not even there? She did more to keep her dogs separated than most folks do. She should feel guilty because her father in law was trying to help her? I don't think she needs to feel anymore guilt than she is and that is hard enough.

I think she is being more sensible going ahead and having her girl spayed now and not run the risks of pregnancy or something happening to her girl since she was planning on spaying her anyway.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

You do realize that there could be 10-12 puppies right? And that there's a lot of risks to the pregnancy including (but not limited to) the need for a c-section?
They are already $1500 down over this and a c-section could run at least that much. 

The spay is safe and as wyoming said, rarely an issue any more than a regular spay. 

10 puppies is a lot of work, and if mom was sick or couldn't nurse, to bottle feed them takes round the clock care for a minimum of three weeks. 
And then after that, weaning them onto kibble (either way, mom caring for them or the OP) and cleaning up their messes hourly for another 5 weeks until they are old enough to find homes, then (I'd strongly encourage this) s/n all the puppies or at the very least putting them on a contract to s/n them (some of which will ultimately fail to do so).

I mean the list goes on and on, that's only a part of it. A safe place to raise an entire litter, socializing them all daily, etc. It's really a huge lot of work. Huge.

eta:


> I would offer the puppies (temperment appropriate) to an organization who work with mentally disabled people or the elderly.


This is really a bizarre statement. There's plenty of puppies in rescue already or shelters even, to choose from. This is not justification at all to allow mom to have the litter (if there is one).
Not to mention, many of these organizations prefer to take older puppies so there's less time to have to keep them until they can be trained (6mos +) which also allows them to see more of a "set" temperament.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I wondered where you've been! So sorry you've been having so many problems. 

This was an accident and you are acting responsibly. Don't beat yourself up. Yes, I would do the spay/terminate. Hope Henry heals quickly and without any complications.


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## Chance&Reno (Feb 21, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> You do realize that there could be 10-12 puppies right? And that there's a lot of risks to the pregnancy including (but not limited to) the need for a c-section?
> They are already $1500 down over this and a c-section could run at least that much.
> 
> The spay is safe and as wyoming said, rarely an issue any more than a regular spay.
> ...


I didn't say it was a justification. It's what I would do IF i decided to let her have the puppies. This was just an idea because she was worried about having more unwanted dogs in the world. As far as the shelters go, they still have to pay adoption fees and the chances of getting young puppies is slim in the area that the organization is located. The particular organization that I have worked with, prefer the puppies at a young age (10 weeks) as they enter foster homes and the foster families work with the dogs from the day they arrive. Those who aren't going to be a good fit for the program (barring any aggression issues), are rehomed VIA the organization to families who just want a family companion and don't really need a therapy dog. Like I said, JUST an idea. I've never done that but it doesn't mean I wouldn't consider it IF there was no other option.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Oh letting her have pups is NOT an option no if's, and's, or buts about it. I just wanted to hear the safest and least traumatic way to go about it. I am not interested in producing mutts or purebreds for that matter and Zoe's temperament while much improved is not a good representation of the breed- she is fear aggressive though it is limited to inside the home nonetheless she should not be allowed to produce offspring ever. I am not anti-abortion and do not have the time to raise a liter I didn't plan on or contribute to directly. It is 100% my fault I canceled 3 spays because of sickness in the home hindsight being 20/20 I could have asked the in-laws to keep her for me while she healed, but they have 2 dogs one who is not nice to kids and hates Zoe. I may not have been there, but I am her owner and the reason she is 2 and still intact....I just want this fixed now, lol. My vet must be slightly prolife because she made spaying now sound terribly dangerous. Zoe is not old or overweight so it sounds like she is a healthy candidate from what I am hearing. I am also mad because I just read they could have done a sperm smear to see if copulation occurred and they did not offer this. They checked her out and said she looked "fine" as in not injured from the separation, and said I would have to wait about 4 weeks to know if she was in fact pregnant. At that time I could do a high risk spay, or choose to have the puppies making both sound like dangerous options. I need a liberal vet me thinks.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> My vet must be slightly prolife because she made spaying now sound terribly dangerous.


Just to be clear, there's a huge difference between the human abortion debate and that of our pets  I would hope any vet could see that difference.

Basically, schedule the spay for the week after she's out of heat and you're good to go.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Waiting four weeks will make the pregnancy almost advanced to half way, way way harder to spay/abort at that time. Sounds like your vet is against spaying in this situation, so I might be finding another vet, at least for this situation. 
The worse spays while in heat we have ever had are FAT labs that tend to bleed and bleed because of all the fat. Its not so much the uterus giving us problems, its the fat that bleeds and continues to bleed.The uterus bleeding is able to be stopped as soon as the stumps are sutured.
I would schedule a spay next week, she will out of heat and the "eggs" if present are not viable or even starting to be anything, they are free floating cells. The sperm test is all great and dandy, except you said there was so much bleeding involved with the injury, sperm probably would not be at the vulva anymore, those would have been washed away and going any further into her vaginal track would not be a procedure I would want her to have.
You are doing the right thing. You might have to find a different vet for this procedure if your vet is being so "prolife", but might be the best thing. The vet should keep her "life thoughts" out of decisions that a pet owner makes, give the options, as truthful as possible, and let them make a choice, not the vets choice.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Oh yes I know she just seemed against termination at all stating allowing her to have the pups wasn't anymore dangerous than a spay, and I should really wait to confirm pregnancy. I personally don't want to wait but figured maybe there was a reason I was ignorant too. The other vet there shared the popular opinion here which was spay now she'll be fine. I am just so conflicted and feel like I have no time to think this all the way through now that it is happening to me. I had planned in case of emergency which I NEVER saw coming to immediately spay, but now I just feel like no matter what I am endangering her life and am killing myself with guilt


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Yes go to the other vet then.

We took in a very emaciated Doxi-Chi dog recently who was extremely preg.
Because our vet is so in tune with our rescue mission they'll perform the spay/terminate up until the dog delivers. They see firsthand the results of rampant breeding/overpopulation so are quite proactive about s/n. They are the best, hands down, to do 8 week/2lb. puppies so as to send them out altered (and have not "lost" one on the table for the past 5yrs. we've been going there).

Anyway I dropped off the Doxie-chi to their clinic and just told them to work her in. They kept her a few days until they could spay her. I didn't want to look at her or think about it really, because yes, puppies are fun, etc. but I also know that mommy was in no condition to be a mommy and the fact she weighed all of 4-5lb. made our decision all the more clear, spay/terminate or risk a c-section that could put our rescue so far under financially we'd never recover.

Oh, and the reason we took her is that the shelter's vet would not perform a spay if he could visually see the dog was pregnant


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

You are not endangering her life, anymore than her going under anesthetic for a teeth cleaning or something else. The one vet has an agenda,heck, more puppies will bring in more business..... The other vet is okay with spaying her now. Just make your appointment and get it done next week. The sooner the better for her and you... Accidents happen and its not like you woke up and said" I think I will let Zoey get bred, just for fun to have a litter of pups" and then decide you didn't want them. This happened, both dogs will be fine.
You need to make sure you keep healthy,don't stress and dont worry, it will be fine.


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

So sorry to hear that.  And hate to be the one to tell you but your boy is not out of the woods yet. It is very very important that you make sure he doesn't get an infection. That's how my Tara's sire died. He got hurt while breeding, ended up with an infection and died.  I hope and pray this is not your boy's case but I just wanted to let you know so you keep a close eye on him.

Good luck with everything else.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Yes other's personal opinions are making this hard believe me. If the vets aren't bad enough you should hear the comments flying from our families who can't believe we are considering making sure we don't have pups in a few months. People's selfishness never ceases to amaze me. The in-laws want a pup, my parents, and a slue of other local family members who see this as an unplanned miracle....don't ask how 2 dogs getting it on is a miracle by the way I can't seem to figure that out, but nonetheless the pressure is on. Mind you all these people who would love a furball can more than afford to just go purchase one and aren't concerned with Zoe's overall well being or my sanity. I would have to take 9 weeks off work, forgo sleep, and be prepared to lose my angel because my FIL is an idiot. It will interrupt our financial well being, our schedules, and turn our home upside down. I really don't understand why anyone would consider breeding a miracle so our plan is to get this done Monday and Tuesday.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

My view is, if you have the right to make decisions such as euthanasia for your pet (for their own good/health/end of life) then you have the right to make this decision.
If people do not believe it's "right" to spay/terminate then how is it right to euthanize their pet at the end of it's life?
We make decisions for our pet's health and their best interest every day (no, don't eat that dark chocolate, it's bad for you; yes you need a bath to get the skunk smell out; I'm sorry Fido, you're in too much pain and your quality of life is gone; the list goes on). 
This is no different.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Yes we are worried about infection especially with us not being with him. The in-laws are GREAT but you never know I really wish I was the one with him, but he can't be near her right now. If he so much as gets excited he will retear his stitches there's just no way around that. My BIL is home all day to medicate and make sure he isn't climbing, running, jumping, or licking his area. They say in about 10 days to 2 weeks he will be fine to come home and go back to normal exercise pending no snags. He is on antibiotics for 2 weeks and will be kept clean and dry, but I know infection can happen even with every precaution taken and we are worried.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

And, just about the time the puppies are ready to go into their new homes, everyone will have plans, be unable to have the puppy, going on vacation, decide a puppy is not really good right now, etc. Oh yea, its free and of course you will be able to take care of said puppy whenever they go out of town or decide they no longer have time for it.
Ignore their "helpful" advice,forget what they are saying and get her surgery done Monday or Tuesday..... Don't let them get you down... Its your dog and your decision.


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## pyratemom (Jan 10, 2011)

I think the OP is making the right choice. There isn't that much more of a chance of a problem with a pregnancy spay. I had a white GSD many many years ago as well as having a purebred American Pitbull Terrier. I was dumb enough to think they wouldn't breed together because the female was young, but sure enough I caught them locked up and soon after took her to the vet. I knew we couldn't have the puppies because it would not be safe to adopt them out. Spook, the pit we had was severely dog and people aggressive (yes I know but we did not plan to adopt him it was a wedding present) and I knew any puppies from him would also be aggressive. The vet did the pregnant spay and she was fine within a day, up and moving around. The key factor was to get to it early while she was in early gestation. We got there the first week. I do hope her male dog is okay as there is a lot of chance of infection in that area.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Is this a concern? 
01 Brucellosis in Dogs - VeterinaryPartner.com - a VIN company!

http://www.agr.georgia.gov/Data/Sit...alth/files/caninebrucellosiskennelanowner.pdf

Sorry about this, glad you know your own mind and aren't be swayed by people who don't have to pay the price of a different decision. If they want miracles, shelters are full of them.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

My sentiments exactly I am waiting for the vet to call back with an estimate and date for her blood work now but more than likely Monday or Tuesday with the spay scheduled the next day is the plan. Henry will still be at the in-laws so she will have the house to herself to recover. We've already tested for clotting issues since we have had a pre spay appointment more than once but they still like blood work within 7 days of spay for some reason and a heart worm test. Now to completely deplete all my savings because my husbands family decided listening to me was silly. This should have been easily avoided I am just floored still. The only rule was NEVER ever ever bring him back home till I know the coast is clear- not for a visit, not to grab a tool, and not because he wanted a car ride- just leave him be for 2 weeks twice a year....really simple. We keep their dogs constantly since they have retired and travel and I haven't broken one yet. Heck I even keep my MIL's plants alive when they leave and that is a task for me, but I simply follow her directions. My FIL feels terrible, but I am still so mad right now


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

wyominggrandma said:


> Why would anyone suggest bringing a litter of mixed breed puppies in the world and assume you could give them away to an organization?Or find good adopters? There are enough mixed breed puppies available to anyone or organization that wants them?, yet the humane societies and papers are full of give away puppies
> 
> Why should the OP be made to feel guilty for something happening while she was not even there? She did more to keep her dogs separated than most folks do. She should feel guilty because her father in law was trying to help her? I don't think she needs to feel anymore guilt than she is and that is hard enough.
> 
> I think she is being more sensible going ahead and having her girl spayed now and not run the risks of pregnancy or something happening to her girl since she was planning on spaying her anyway.


 
Agree 100%


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Jax08 said:


> I wondered where you've been! So sorry you've been having so many problems.
> 
> This was an accident and you are acting responsibly. Don't beat yourself up. Yes, I would do the spay/terminate. Hope Henry heals quickly and without any complications.


I agree, just do the spay/terminate immediately.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

From a pure statistics standpoint, the odds of 10 Lab/GSD puppies living out their entire lives in good, loving homes where they get to be house pets that eat quality food and receive good veterinary care for 12-14 years are almost nil.


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## 1sttimeforgsd (Jul 29, 2010)

Glad that both you and your daughter are on the road to recovery, and that both of your furbabies will have a complete and speedy recovery too.


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## Ingrid (Aug 29, 2010)

Emoore said:


> From a pure statistics standpoint, the odds of 10 Lab/GSD puppies living out their entire lives in good, loving homes where they get to be house pets that eat quality food and receive good veterinary care for 12-14 years are almost nil.


^^^Couldn't agree more!

OP, you're doing the right thing...Hope you and your family stay healthy and well from here on!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I'm so sorry for all YOUR troubles/family and now the dogs 

I agree with the others, NOT YOUR FAULT! You do what's best for you , it sounds like you've got a plan, and no matter what others say, stick to it. Go with what works for you and the animals.

Hang in there and hope everyone is ok


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

I'm elated to see you back. Was wondering where you were. Just so very sorry for all you have been and are still going through. I agree that you are absolutely doing the right thing. 
I'm sure your FIL does feel badly. He should. Crap, I'm mad him and I don't even know him.

Praying for an uneventful spay, a speedy recovery for your boy and some rest and peace of mind for you. 

Big Hugs!
Jan


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Just back back from a family visit with Henry and boy is he a sight for sore eyes. He looks like he lost 5 lbs. in a day and is pacing and whining a lot. He did eat a little and took his meds like a good boy, drank some water, and peed while I was there so everything is still working okay. The vet will let us know tomorrow when we can bring her in next week for the spay so hopefully in 2 weeks this will be behind us and everyone will be home together


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Your bitch is now over two? Is she related to the dog? 

I did not read the whole thread, will go back and find out how off-base I am, but I think that unless the male is her brother or father, I would go ahead and let nature run its course. I think that an immediate spay is an alternative, but it is riskier than if the bitch is not in heat.

She may not be pregnant, but if she is, a litter of puppies will not make or break the state of GSDs everywhere. If you think this is absolutely something you do not think you can handle, than go ahead with the spay. 

It is amazing how fertile dogs seem to be when you are not trying.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

selzer said:


> Your bitch is now over two? Is she related to the dog?
> 
> I did not read the whole thread, will go back and find out how off-base I am, but I think that unless the male is her brother or father, I would go ahead and let nature run its course. I think that an immediate spay is an alternative, but it is riskier than if the bitch is not in heat.
> 
> ...


It's not that simple. 
The OP has stated she has neither the time nor money to invest in a litter of puppies and you know as well as we, that it is quite an investment even when everything goes right. That's not including all the things that can go wrong.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

selzer said:


> She may not be pregnant, but if she is, a litter of puppies will not make or break the state of GSDs everywhere.


I think the problem is going to be finding 6, 8, 10, or more people who want to give good, committed, lifelong homes to a Lab/ Shepherd mix. It won't break the state of GSDs everywhere, but it could end up in a bad place for those individual dogs.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Missed the little fact that your dog is a lab. 

I disagree that it is just as safe now. I would probably wait until she is out of heat, and then spay. The puppies are tiny, they grow the most in their last three weeks. I think that the internal works will be better for a spay after the heat cycle is complete and bleeding stops. 

You might even wait a month, and do an ultra sound to see if she is pregnant, if she is spay, if not wait another month or two. 

I had a bitch spayed during in a c-section, and that was a huge mistake as there were a lot of bleeders and she was under anesthetic for a very long time -- much longer than a simple c-section where they remove the puppy, sew up the insides and the outside and bring her out of it. Instead they removed everything and in that condition it took a lot more time than a simple spay. 

At least talk to your vet and see if it is an easier procedure to spay after the heat cycle is over, but within the first tri-mester, or to do it now.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ok, ya'all, I did not read the whole thread before posting, just the op. I did go back and read the rest. Pups would be mixes, and no way she wants to go through whelping definitely points to a spay-abort. But when?


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Selzer it should be done between Tuesday and Wednesday she goes in Monday for her bloodwork/physical. Apparently the risk is the same whether she's in heat or 30 days along. I don't know for sure that she is pregnant and neither do they, but the vet put it like this- "we know they did it, and as you know that's how to make babies so if your sure you don't want puppies sooner is better than later". Now the other vet is all about why not go ahead with the liter, but honestly me taking 8 weeks off of work is not a feasible option. I actually am not worried about not being able to find homes that are good and permanent my family does and always has kept their dogs for the entirety of their lives. I am worried about Zoe being okay, and the financial hardship of that much time off of work. It cost me $1,500.00 for my Henry's surgery and it'll be a little over $800.00 for Zoe's blood work, spay, night in hospital, and medications after plus I'll miss a day or two of work to be with her. I am also concerned I'll be contributing to passing Zoe's not so stellar temperament off to another generation and making more mutts. I wish I had the time, money, and knowledge to breed but I sure don't have appropriate breeding stock as much as I love her and all her quirks. She's 2 yrs. and 4 months now so a spay is in order and now insures I don't have another heat, another oops, and Henry 's package is forever safer, lol


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I am very sorry you are going through this. I hope your boy will be ok.

I have fostered many females that were spayed while in heat because the rescue would not take chances - for the obvious reasons. It was harder on the dog, but not that much difference in recovery. It is being done all the time. I have fostered spay-abort situations as well and the only time there were problems (behavioral) was the late termination. I would not do that.

I think the strongest argument is the temperament of the mom, you don't want a littler of puppies that can potentially have temperament issues. If you shop around, you may find a less expensive option for the spay.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I just wanted to step here and say that you are taking the right decisions and THAT is what matters at the end of the day, not if a door was left open or not by a family member.

I hope things just get better for you from now. Now at least you will have one less thing to worry about when your girl is spayed.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Zoeys mom said:


> Selzer it should be done between Tuesday and Wednesday she goes in Monday for her bloodwork/physical. Apparently the risk is the same whether she's in heat or 30 days along. I don't know for sure that she is pregnant and neither do they, but the vet put it like this- "we know they did it, and as you know that's how to make babies so if your sure you don't want puppies sooner is better than later". Now the other vet is all about why not go ahead with the liter, but honestly me taking 8 weeks off of work is not a feasible option. I actually am not worried about not being able to find homes that are good and permanent my family does and always has kept their dogs for the entirety of their lives. I am worried about Zoe being okay, and the financial hardship of that much time off of work. It cost me $1,500.00 for my Henry's surgery and it'll be a little over $800.00 for Zoe's blood work, spay, night in hospital, and medications after plus I'll miss a day or two of work to be with her. I am also concerned I'll be contributing to passing Zoe's not so stellar temperament off to another generation and making more mutts. I wish I had the time, money, and knowledge to breed but I sure don't have appropriate breeding stock as much as I love her and all her quirks. She's 2 yrs. and 4 months now so a spay is in order and now insures I don't have another heat, another oops, and Henry 's package is forever safer, lol


This is certainly your decision and you do not have to justify it or yourself to anyone. I do not think anyone blames you for your father-in-law's decision to bring your male into the house where your female was and then let her out, let them connect, injure him getting him off of her. And there maybe a an individual or two that cringes at the idea of aborting the litter, but that is certainly your decision as well. I think those that feel that way can choose a different path, and that would be their decision. 

You would probably not have to take 8 weeks off of work. I generally take a week off. After the first week, the second 2-3 are not so hard as the dam does most of it, if you have a good dam, not too young or seriously stressed or ill, no reason yours would not be, though it is possible. On the other hand, there is no way to ensure that there will not be serious complications. If I was working when I had little Cupcake, she probably would not have survived or I would have lost the job, as she needed intensive care for weeks.

So ultimately, your decision to spay at this point, before you are sure whether or not there is any puppies is probably the best bet. I have spayed during a c-section, and that was not a good idea. But yours is more like just spaying during a heat cycle. The bitch we had growing up was spayed after a neighborhood roaming Great Dane tied with her. There were no complications. 

I think it is good that you realize that whelping, raising the litter, and homing the puppies is something is huge, and taking steps against that eventuality is the responsible thing to do.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

I still feel like a giant horse's tush, but I feel good about my decision after talking to the vet today. We are spaying her Friday March 23rd since her heat will be completely over, swelling less, and any puppies not even developed. She will stay the night and come home Saturday morning which also gives us time to finish the painting and carpeting project my husband so awesomely started, and by then Henry is out of the woods and will be mostly healed


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

That's good. Stay strong, and don't listen to anyone else. They aren't the ones in your shoes.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I feel better with that timing, with the heat cycle totally over. Sounds like the best bet for all involved. Don't feel bad. You did everything in your power to prevent this.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Sounds like things are looking up for you and your crew. Glad to hear it.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Well we are at day 3 from surgery and Henry while eating and peeing is a whining mess over there. He paces and whines all night keeping my in-laws house up and it is worrying me slightly. He's always been a restless dog even at 9 he's never been much for lying around and relaxing. He also doesn't like sleeping away from home and is always a pain when he is there without us, but then I wonder if he's in a lot of pain still and uncomfortable too. Whining, pacing, and panting are all signs of stress- so is it just because he is away from us and slightly traumatized, or is his pain not being controlled?? The incision still looks normal from the outside no odor, discharge, discoloration, or abnormal swelling. He is peeing normal and eating twice a day though slightly less. He has anti-inflamatory pills, antibiotics, and tramadol for pain....maybe I am just overly worried because I am not the one caring for him?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

just read the first page.....

but I am with a few here who say - wait until heat is done and SPAY Zoe. I have seen tons of spays on females who have been accidently bred....it is sad but there are way too many pups and young dogs - mutts and purebreds! - dumped in shelters, on roadsides, dumpsters etc now to justify allowing the birth of a mixed breed litter ...

Yes it is a bit riskier than a regular spay, but if your vets are experienced, the risk IS minimal!!! People over react to surgical risks IMO.....your dog is more at risk for disease/death going to a dog show/training or car ride than getting put under anesthesia!!!! How many people do you know whose pets died in surgery??? How many who lost pet who got hit by a car or got cancer??? Do the surgery. It was a stupid accident and I hope your FIL did not get beat up too much for his lapse in memory/judgement...I am sure he feels badly too.


Geez - $800 for a spay????????????????????????? Glad you are doing it...but I would find another vet!!!!!!!!!!!

Lee


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Lee to get a cheaper spay I would have to venture into VA or Pa...vets are just ridiculous here. The cost of care astounds me when I talk to friends who live just an hour or two away, but being right outside Washington, DC means I overpay for most anything as it is. I like our vets though we've been using them since I was 11 and Zoe is comfortable there- she's never been anywhere else so they know her temperament and quirks well. It's also 2 miles from home and work so I am close in the event something goes wrong. I just can't wait for it all to be over and both of them to be home safe. Not having Henry here is bothering me to know end, but with us painting and tearing out carpets it's better anyway.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

Falls road animal hospital in Baltimore has very reasonable s/n prices that include overnight stay.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Thank you that's only an hour away from here too


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

They have done many spays and neuters for different rescues, they can spay dogs in heat, there is a reasonable extra charge, like 20-30%. she should be utd on shots.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Since you are worried about your girl being in heat and bleeding, to be on the safe side you can request a clothing test (if they don't do it routinely). It's easy, cheap and quick.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

How is Henry?


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Henry is doing better as of yesterday no whining from him, and he is getting around better. He has also learned medicine time is cheese time so if he hears cheese, or see's my DH's parents going to the fridge he runs up, sits, and stares at them, lol I am hoping by Wednesday he can come home Zoe is going in for a check-up so they should be able to tell us how much longer. Her rabies is due the 14th of March but they decided to hold off till after the surgery since they say vaccinations can cause more bleeding?? Never heard that, but a few days after won't kill her.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

So tomorrow will be a week from our incident and I want my puppy home but...... Our vet says there is no way to definitively tell that Zoe is out of heat all the way. Her vulva is at it's normal size, no discharge in a week, her tail is back down, lol, and her appetite is back. This is usually when I would bring him home before all this happened, but now I am worried. If he so much as gets a whiff of her femininity and gets excited it could be bad. The stitches he has are on their way to dissolving though and in another 3 days will be gone. He is eating well, not whining, and seems to be bouncing back to normal, and I miss my brown boy.

Zoe goes in tomorrow but even the vet says they can't be sure she's good to go even with all the signs pointing to yes. This is week 5 from the start of her heat as well so do I wait till the 10 day mark because I know he is healed, or bring him home after her appointment tomorrow??


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## Chance&Reno (Feb 21, 2012)

I would personally wait until the 10 day mark, maybe even 11. Better over safe than very sorry.

Good luck!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

If it's bad for him to even "get excited" I'd wait longer.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Ms. Zoe is back from the vet with some new allergy medicine and ear drops. She gets an ear infection at the same time every year but this time it was just inflamed from the allergies and not infected yet Her blood work, nail trim, and heart worm test are outta the way and she will get her vaccines after the surgery on the 23rd. We decided to bring Henry back tomorrow so all is looking up so far


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