# Help! What is going on with my puppy?!



## E_roush (Oct 19, 2019)

We finally decided to introduce a new puppy into our family (we had just 1 cat) and obviously I went for the shepherd breed because I grew up with them and love their temperament. Especially when it comes to kids. I didn't care to get a registered shepherd because he will just be a pet and didn't want to spend the extra 300 plus for the papers. So with that being said, I found one online not very far from me. Mom is a white shepherd and dad is a black and tan. Mom is a little on the small side. I didn't actually meet them. They sent pics because we met at a public place. I was told my baby was 9 weeks old and that he was the runt. They gave me shot records and handed me the puppy with a collar and food. Looking at pictures of other shepherds, he just seems too small. Even if he is the runt. Also he has white markings on his toes and his tail curls a lot typically when he's walking around. So far he has been hard to train which I'm not used to in shepherds, even puppies. I've attached some pictures taken a couples days after I brought him home and some of the parents. In your opinion is he pure bred? I know you cant 110% tell without papers but just want an opinion.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Very cute puppy, but my guess is that he's not purebred. Hard to tell how big he is from photos, do you know what he weighs?


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## E_roush (Oct 19, 2019)

He has his first vet appointment next week so I will find out then but he cant be more than like 7lbs I'm guessing.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

He's adorable!His mom's physique is very different from a purebred shepherd,but she looks healthy and muscular.Most importantly is that he's a good fit with your family.


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## NaughtyNibbler (Oct 28, 2018)

A very cute puppy, but not likely a pure breed (based on the combined things; multiple white areas, the size & the curly tail you mention) Enjoy the puppy Sometimes there can be a health advantage, with a mixed breed

When you can't actually meet the parents, generally there is a reason. Meeting in a parking lot, has to make you wonder. Perhaps one of the parents could be a mix, but looks like a pure breed. Several years ago, my parents fell for a similar story I could tell right away when I saw the dog, that it was a mix The dog became a good pet & was a benefit for my elderly parents. 

My understanding is that pure breed GSD's can have a white spot somewhere (ie on the chest), but not multiple white spots in various locations. I don't know it it's the lighting in the photo, but it appears as if there is some white above the eye brows as well. The face marking are very cute, whether it's a pure breed or not.

I used to have a semi-ferral cat, that was a Siamese mix. It looked Siamese in almost every way, but it had white on it's feet. Those involved with cat rescue, referred to it as a Snow Shoe Siamese. It was a mix of a Siamese with a common cat


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

The ear set is all wrong for a purebred GSD. They are set too low on the head and the bases have no strength. I doubt very much they will ever stand.

Here's a photo of my 9 week old GSD. The ears should look more like this.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

My first dog looked very much like the photo of mom that you posted, only mine was mostly black with a white patch on the chest and white feet. He was a Lab/GSD mix I was told. Cute puppy though!


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## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

Not a purebred there, in fact I'm highly skeptical that those two dogs made that puppy. Puppy looks to have hound or retriever of some kind in it. Father appears to be long haired, and I doubt he fathered that litter at all. 

In litters it's possible to have two males father one litter. Our husky/shepherd had 10 puppies shortly after we got her. 4 of them were quite obviously not similar to the other 6. We kept track of most of them, other than the one we kept (our late great Happy dog) some lived quite close to us. The hound looking puppies grew up to resemble none of their other siblings. 

Unless you paid a lot for your puppy, just enjoy him. Mixed breeds are great.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Just one thing I'd like to add: if someone says they will meet you anywhere but their home to exchange the puppy, that is a HUGE red flag! It means they don't want you to see the pup's living conditions, and COULD be a puppy miller.

The pup is cute, and looks healthy, and you did get health records, so I think you're off to a good start, in spite of everything. But next time, PLEASE arrange to see the puppy's home, and the mother, father as well if possible!


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I agree about the red flag. I found what I thought was a good online breeder for a friend. I told her when they get there if anything seems off, walk away. They drove 6 hrs to pick up the dog in a parking lot. She didn’t tell me that I advance. He looked like a mix but they insisted in taking him anyway. He is now about 8 and looks mostly German Shepherd except for his ears, and he has a different temperament. I found out later the woman was not a breeder, she was a scam artist who posed online as a service dog trainer and handler. She bred two random dogs and sold them as purebreds. It was not the first time, either. 

There are good reasons why we suggest buyers only buy from a reputable breeder with pedigrees. It’s not about the money but about knowing what you are getting. I agree with everyone else. He is very cute and you are probably already attached to him. Love him, train him, ask for help here and enjoy your dog.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

E_roush said:


> He has his first vet appointment next week so I will find out then but he cant be more than like 7lbs I'm guessing.


If you have a scale weigh yourself, then pick him up and weigh again while you are holding him, then subtract the first number from the second.


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## E_roush (Oct 19, 2019)

I paid 350 for him. He's an okay dog. He's been hard to train and hard to fit in with our family and routine. He just doesnt possess any of the qualities I really wanted in a shepherd. I'm not sure what to do. I dont want to be that person that gives away their puppy to a new family just because I didnt get what I wanted but part of me feels it's also unfair that now I have to keep him for 15 plus years when he wasn't what I signed up for anyway. Does giving him to a different family make me a bad person? I know mixed dogs can be perfectly fine and great dogs but for right now I want all the qualities a shepherd has to offer. I already know it would be a perfect match for my family and 2 year old.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

the white areas really mean nothing. GSDs can have residual white, typically on the toes and chest.

The mother does not look purebred. Her physical shape of her face isnt' right. The father does look purebred.

You only paid $350 and met the person in the parking lot. What exactly did you expect? Even if he is a purebred, which you can test for genetically, you bought from a BYB in a parking lot.


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## E_roush (Oct 19, 2019)

I see purebred shepherds go for 350 all the time. Just without papers. Also, I didn't know I was buying from a random "BYB". And I didn't exactly find it odd we met in a public place because that's what people typically do when buying from strangers. So I didn't exactly question it. I get that I put too much trust in these people but geez.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I am not sure where anybody is getting that this breeder met OP in a parking lot and did not want them coming to their property to meet the parents. Maybe OP was satisfied with conversations with the breeder and pictures and made arrangements out of convenience to meet part way to save on driving or to protect their privacy. You never know today about people. I did the same with both of the last two dogs I purchased. I even paid them some gas money to meet me part way as I don't like what is long distance driving for me. I did get to meet the mother of one who the breeder brought with them but I think they brought her more out of meeting a stranger in a parking lot in a somewhat unfamiliar location than for me to meet the dam. I brought one of my own dogs with me too for the same reasons. Anyhow, so far so good with both of the pups and the one didn't look much like a purebred either but as she is maturing, it is all falling into place. 

Without something in pictures to reference for size, it is kind of hard to tell how the puppy in front of you compares to others size wise. I mean you would need to see a puppy in a picture near a car and then put your puppy by the same kind of car to make a fair comparison. Pictures sure can add a few pounds and nobody is going to post an unflattering picture. 

I would disregard the white markings. White toes and chests and even tail tips happen in the breed. Some time they diminish, other times they disappear altogether. I once had a GSD puppy whose full one third of the end of his tail was white. He had a white chest and white toes. They all disappeared with maturity. His sister had white markings too that disappeared. Then I have a friend whose GSD has white toes and although they diminished with age, they are still present. It is a trait that he passes on to his puppies. They were all purebred.

I have a young male GSD right now who is a very well bred working line that is the master of the ring tail. I just find it comical. As long as he works, he can curl his tail all he wants. Ring tails are a GSD fault, but they certainly do occur in the breed. 

Your puppy is only 9 weeks old, a toddler. He does not have the maturity to learn very much of anything. He is fine. The expectations need adjusted. 

9 weeks and 7#s sounds about right for a runt. Some GSDs are much larger, grow fast, and are done growing faster. Others are smaller, grow slower, but grow for a longer period of time. There is a whole range of growth patterns within and without of both of those examples. 

Ears can vary widely. Low set is not preferred in a show ring but it should not be a deal breaker for what you want. Personally I prefer low set ears, I like the look better. Low set should not be an issue as to whether the ears stand. Genetics play a major role and the pup's parents may carry for soft ears. Who knows? But heavier ear leather, and larger ears can be more problematic when it comes to ears going up.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Please don't blame the puppy for not being what you expected. If you can't love him for who he is, please responsibly rehome him. Don't expect to get $350.00 for him, but don't offer him for free. He deserves a loving home.

The puppy is absolutely adorable. Every pup is different and learns differently. Since you purchased him from seemingly sketchy people, it's possible he is not even as old as they said he is. Perhaps that is the reason he is not learning as quickly as you expect. Believe it or not, there are even purebred German Shepherds who aren't the sharpest tools in the shed.

See if your vet can help you to rehome your pup.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

What qualities did you want? What are you seeing? Young puppies are not going to show all the behaviors you expect in a mature dog. I’m not sure why you want to give the puppy away. $350 might seem like an average price but for most of us it’s very low. Even rescue groups charge more like $400-600 for a rescued dog. I don’t know where you live. A lot of us paid closer to $2,000 for purebred dogs, possibly more. A few paid slightly less.

Even if he is a mix, the mom is at least 50% GSD so your dog is at least 75% German Shepherd.


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## E_roush (Oct 19, 2019)

I know most everyone on her probably bought really expensive aka registered shepherds with working line and ect and spent 1,000-2,000 but I'm from Ohio. I see purebred puppies with papers go for 500-800 dollars so it's not at all uncommon to spend 350-450 for a purebred without papers. I promise it's really not. I have done tons of research. I know if I 110% want no doubt it's a purebred I have to get the papers but I just figured I could trust these people. And I know that mixed dogs can make great pets too. I've had them as well. I'm not a snob or whatever. And I will most likely end up keeping him so dont shame me for giving him away. I'll try again in a few years.


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## E_roush (Oct 19, 2019)

And also this is the reply I get from the "nice people" selling the puppy after I confronted them about scamming.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I don't think anybody is saying that just because your puppy doesn't have papers means that it is a mix. There are enough AKC registered dogs with unscrupulous breeders whose puppies are mixed. 

People here just want to see the puppy in the right home. That is no reflection on you. I rehomed an AKC GSD because she wasn't the right dog for me. She was placed in a wonderful home where she was a perfect match and she was a well loved and well taken care of dog until the end of her time.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Image reported for language.

OP, your situation is unfortunate, but we do hope that you’ll stick around the forum as there is a lot of valuable information here that can help in raising this puppy should you decide to keep him, as well as better prepare you when you’re ready for a purebred GSD.

As a new member, I do ask that you familiarize yourself with the message board rules: https://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/welcome-gsd-faqs-first-time-owner/758317-board-rules.html

Thank you and Welcome.


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

No shame in finding him a new home if he isn't what you expected. For what it's worth I understand that you thought you were getting a pure bred GSD and now you have doubts and some buyers remorse. You want what you thought you were paying for and was advertised to you. 

So I wonder if it really has anything to do with his supposed lack of trainability or more that he isn't a pure GSD that has you wanting to rehome. I'm not judging...not my place.

I personally just feel like you haven't given him much of chance to prove himself given he's only 9 ish weeks old. What makes me pause is your feeling he isn't trainable like you expected. I'm trying to understand exactly what that means. If you are willing could explain what you are trying to train and what you feel he should be able or know to do at such a young age. Pure GSD or not what do you think a puppy should be successfully trained to do at 9 weeks? You don't have to answer if you don't want to. I'm just curious as to your mindset about age and training.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Absolutely no shaming. The puppy and owner need to be a good match, otherwise both are unhappy. 

Sure, many here have purebred GSDs. Some are top notch, dogs with superior breeding. Others are rescues or shelter dogs. Some are probably even puppy mill dogs. And some, HORRORS, are mixed breeds. HA!

I happen to have two mixed breed shelter dogs. Yes, I knew that was what I was getting so no complaints from me. I did DNA testing on my shepherd mix. She is 70 some % GSD. Neither of her parents were purebred. She missed out on the smart gene, but she's a great dog and we love her.

Just posting this so you know we don't all have purebred GSDs. Heck, some people on here don't even have a dog. LOL!


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## NaughtyNibbler (Oct 28, 2018)

The easy answer is that if you only want a purebred GSD, then *do a DNA test*. Everyone posting is speculating. A test is the only way to know. It's a very cute puppy. I agree with what other have posted. If you can't accept less than 100% GSD, then best to find a new home, where the genetics isn't an issue and the dog can be loved for what he/she is. 

Everyone's posts reflect their personal experiences, personal boundaries & the norms for where they live. I'm laughing a bit about the debate about meeting in a public place, versus parking lot of a public place, LOL Maybe it was a public place, without a parking lot? Sorry, couldn't help but joke a bit.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

No one here is picking on you. We are trying to explain and provide an answer to your question. It’s your dog and if you don’t want him please find him a new home soon. The younger he moves to a new family the easier his adjustment will be. I’m not sure how you can be positive a dog is purebred without knowing the pedigree. You don’t actually need papers in hand, but it helps to see the pedigree. You can ask them for a copy of the parents pedigrees if they have them without anyone having to pay for registration. If you get a different dog, please get a copy of the pedigree and post it. AKC registration, which is what you are actually talking about when you say papers means the parents and puppies are registered. Every dog has a pedigree, whether it is registered or not. The pedigree is just a list of the ancestors on both sides. At least if you have the dog’s names, we can look at it and tell you if the dog is purebred. You can also ask someone to check out the breeder too.

You mention you are in Ohio. Make sure the next dog you get is not from a puppy mill.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

E_roush said:


> I know most everyone on her probably bought really expensive aka registered shepherds with working line and ect and spent 1,000-2,000 but I'm from Ohio. I see purebred puppies with papers go for 500-800 dollars so it's not at all uncommon to spend 350-450 for a purebred without papers. I promise it's really not. I have done tons of research. I know if I 110% want no doubt it's a purebred I have to get the papers but I just figured I could trust these people. And I know that mixed dogs can make great pets too. I've had them as well. I'm not a snob or whatever. And I will most likely end up keeping him so dont shame me for giving him away. I'll try again in a few years.


Umm, my dog was free I have no clue what she really is. All I saw were Shepherds, she looks like one, I call her one. It really isn't that important to me.
I have some bad news for you though. You said a German Shepherd would fit perfectly in your family with your 2 year old child? You may wish to rethink that. They BITE! A lot! Read the multiple threads on here about how to stop a puppy biting. 
As far as your current pup, if you don't want him then find him a good home with someone who does. No shaming, he's a cutie. 
If you want GSD, then fine. But purebred does not mean well bred and in the price range you want I would gamble on a crossbred before I would swing on a poorly bred GSD.


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## NaughtyNibbler (Oct 28, 2018)

E_roush said:


> I want all the qualities a shepherd has to offer. I already know it would be a perfect match for my family and 2 year old.


What qualities are you expecting? In what ways do you believe a GSD would be good with a 2-year old?

Don't be so sure that every GSD puppy is going to seamlessly fit in with your family, without a lot of work on your part. My current GSD is very high energy & has periods of extreme hyperactivity. (not what I was expecting). My prior 2 GSD's, were much calmer & didn't require as much supervision & time investment. It has taken a lot of time & effort on my part. Luckily, I'm retired now. If I were working, I don't know if I'd be able to handle it.

My point is that although GSD's tend to have similar qualities, there are variations in temperament & energy.


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## E_roush (Oct 19, 2019)

Of course there are variations of every breed of dogs temperaments. But as a whole they average out to be loyal, protective, intelligent dogs. All puppies are a handful as expected no matter the breed. I 100% believe shepherds make excellent family pets even for young children because that's been my experience. I dont really think anyone is quite getting why I'm upset. I was basically scammed is the only reason it is upsetting. Yes, maybe I should have done a number of things differently to insure it didnt happen ect. I get that. Will take it all into consideration next time. It's not my puppies fault and I intend to keep him.


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## NaughtyNibbler (Oct 28, 2018)

E_roush said:


> Of course there are variations of every breed of dogs temperaments. But as a whole they average out to be loyal, protective, intelligent dogs. All puppies are a handful as expected no matter the breed. I 100% believe shepherds make excellent family pets even for young children because that's been my experience. I dont really think anyone is quite getting why I'm upset. I was basically scammed is the only reason it is upsetting. Yes, maybe I should have done a number of things differently to insure it didnt happen ect. I get that. Will take it all into consideration next time. It's not my puppies fault and I intend to keep him.


Don't beat yourself up. You were trusting. Your puppy is pretty darn cute! I'm glad you are going to keep him. I look forward to reading your future posts about how things are going with your pup.

There will be an opportunity down the road, perhaps a 2nd dog at some point.


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## Talink3346 (Oct 17, 2019)

I would say maybe a panda gsd but the ears throw me off are the ears standing yet


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## 514parts (Dec 3, 2018)

Fellow Ohioan here. I’m sorry you didn’t get what you wanted. This state is so full of puppy mills and back yard breeders it’s scary. The Amish around my area literally have barns full of dogs and people line up to buy puppies. They look at dogs as livestock and they don’t care anything about the dog as long as it’s cute when it’s a puppy and sells fast. 

Don’t think you are the only one to be fooled. We have a 4 year old English Bulldog that went from a mill to a private seller posing as a reputable breeder. She bought the whole litter to resell. We didn’t realize that until we dug into his papers months later. Like you, we didn’t really care about registering him because he was just a pet and we trusted the lady we bought him from. 

As far as you keeping the pup, you need to decide ASAP what you need to do. It’s going to be easier to find a home when it’s a cute puppy. Just don’t expect to get your money back out of it. We kept ours because we keep our dogs for better or worse. If you keep it I would highly recommend a vet with a health plan or buying pet insurance. I was always skeptical of those things but we have spent thousands on this dog in the last four years. I would give the dog a chance it might be the best dog you ever had. Ours has a great personality he is just racked with health issues from bad breeding. Good luck with whatever you decide.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

You were scammed and you have every right to be upset about that. Those people! I can't get over that text they sent you. You could try legal action but I have doubts the effort would be successful. It's hard but maybe just find a way to put the scamming behind you and focus on that adorable puppy you have. 

I agree with one of the previous posters in that the dog appears to have some kind of hound in them. Maybe beagle, they are the cutest puppies. The one's I've seen love their kids.

In regards to GSDs and kids, I have a 10 week old at home now (and yes a paid a good bit for him, with health certifications for the parents). He loves his kids but he's also very mouthy. They have to pretty much walk around with a toy in their back pockets to shove in his mouth when he approaches. He's not trying to hurt them, GSDs are just a very, very mouthy puppy breed. I would have doubts that a 2 year old would have the mouth stuffing wherewithal to prevent nipping and mouthing. 

Also GSDs are incredibly smart and my kids can already ask My GSD to do things for him (like sit, down, etc). It wasn't until my kids hit around 5 that they realized the coolness of that aspect of dogs. It would be neat if your kid could experience that aspect as the puppy grows but it's possible 2 is too young. 

So maybe this is a blessing in disguise and you can get that ideal family GSD when your kid is old enough to really appreciate the dog raising process. For now, it looks like you have an adorable hound pup.


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## Shane'sDad (Jul 22, 2010)

E_roush said:


> I paid 350 for him. He's an okay dog. He's been hard to train and hard to fit in with our family and routine. He just doesnt possess any of the qualities I really wanted in a shepherd. I'm not sure what to do. I dont want to be that person that gives away their puppy to a new family just because I didnt get what I wanted but part of me feels it's also unfair that now I have to keep him for 15 plus years when he wasn't what I signed up for anyway. Does giving him to a different family make me a bad person? I know mixed dogs can be perfectly fine and great dogs but for right now I want all the qualities a shepherd has to offer. I already know it would be a perfect match for my family and 2 year old.



OP my advice to you is read up on some of the many threads right here related to "behavior" since you seem to believe that simply because a dog is 100%---DNA proven purebred GSD--they automatically make the perfect family dog....because they don't--again read through some of the threads right here...as a general rule people that own all around perfect examples of any breed have that"perfect" dog because they put in the time and work as pup......


IMO he clearly is not purebred...that said with training as he grows into an adult he just may have many of the good GSD traits and few of the bad....is that possible ??...sure it is....but you'll never know whether that's true if you don't give this little guy a chance....some of the best dogs I've had were not the easiest to train as a young pup...but were super adults......


On the other hand if all you'll ever see when this pup "blows" a command or doesn't do what you feel he should..is the fact he's not purebred...then he's not in for much of a life nor are you... sooo.........


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## germanshepowner (Oct 26, 2018)

Sabis mom said:


> E_roush said:
> 
> 
> > I know most everyone on her probably bought really expensive aka registered shepherds with working line and ect and spent 1,000-2,000 but I'm from Ohio. I see purebred puppies with papers go for 500-800 dollars so it's not at all uncommon to spend 350-450 for a purebred without papers. I promise it's really not. I have done tons of research. I know if I 110% want no doubt it's a purebred I have to get the papers but I just figured I could trust these people. And I know that mixed dogs can make great pets too. I've had them as well. I'm not a snob or whatever. And I will most likely end up keeping him so dont shame me for giving him away. I'll try again in a few years.
> ...


^^ This. A GSD puppy is like having a two year old.

OP: In all honesty to me, it doesn’t quite sound like a GSD would fit into your household. And to be frank, puppies at nine weeks aren’t going to be showing adult qualities.. My dog was a complete chicken at even 20 weeks. I thought I had gotten a lap dog with all the times she begged me to hold her. Now? She’s a completely different dog. My family jokingly calls her the monster because she’s a lot of a dog. 

So, since you can’t really tell much about a dogs qualifies at 9 weeks, you’re basing your opinion of this dog solely on looks IMHO and that’s messed up. It’s an adorable dog and you’ll probably find it will get along much better with your two year old.. Try to reframe. Your kid will grow up with a trusty GSD/hound mix. And you won’t be posting here in a month that you’re exhausted by a full GSD


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## adora155 (Oct 16, 2019)

E_roush said:


> It's not my puppies fault and I intend to keep him.


Glad to hear that you're keeping him :smile2:

I concur that shepherds are extremely mouthy and I have the bruises and scars on my arms to bear testament to this fact. I got one on looks alone and didn't know anything about the breed beforehand but quickly researched on this forum for many helpful types. It was an exhausting first 4 months on trying to figure out my shepherd (when all other non-shepherd owners were "my dog never did that as a puppy..."). I have him now, have sorta figured him out via the loads of support from this forum and will change my lifestyle around to accommodate him.

A dog doesn't get to choose the family with whom to spend the rest of its life. We chose to bring it into our home and are responsible for providing a proper education, giving it love, food and protection.

Good luck with your furball :grin2:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Looks like a beagle mix to me. 

My guess is that your breeders, who are either terribly ignorant, terribly unethical, neglectful or abusive, or a combination of all them, did not prevent a midnight caller to visit their bitch during her heat cycle, and they may have a litter with more than one sire.

Doesn't matter now, what's done is done. And a dog is a dog. You weren't worried about purebred or you would have bought a pup with papers. Enjoy the puppy.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

E_roush said:


> I see purebred shepherds go for 350 all the time. Just without papers. Also, I didn't know I was buying from a random "BYB". And I didn't exactly find it odd we met in a public place because that's what people typically do when buying from strangers. So I didn't exactly question it. I get that I put too much trust in these people but geez.


Hello from a fellow Ohioan. And yes, there are dogs that go cheap here. Some folks let their purebred dogs go cheap because they want them all to be in their new homes as soon as 8 weeks as possible, and, yes, someone down the street is selling them for several hundred dollars less. 

But, you don't get off the hook. It costs the same to raise a dog with papers as it does to raise one without papers. Papers cost next to nothing. $30-$50. It just not expensive. I think it costs $35 + $2/puppy to register a litter. So A litter of ten would be $55. Stretched over 10 puppies, that is $5.50 per dog. Yes, most breeders will sit still for that. You have to start with papered breeding stock. Which you pay more for by a few hundred bucks usually. But don't you want a puppy that comes from parents that are certainly purebred, and you know the dogs that were back there? You know they did not breed father to daughter, mother to son, brother to sister? 

You don't really care? Well, then that's what you are getting. If the breeder is not concerned with the parentage of the dog's he's breeding, he has no idea if they are closely related, what's back there, what to expect. Fine. 

If those dogs were registerable, but he did not, why? Because it was going to cost 30 bucks for sire and $30 for the dam and another 50 for the puppies? That makes no sense, no, not even in Ohio. So why? The only reasons are the dogs were sold on a limited registration. So the breeder chose the option where they promised not to breed the dog and paid less for it. And then they did it anyway. Someone like that you are going to pay to sell you a dog? That makes you as unethical as they are. People try to protect their puppies so they do not end up being bred every cycle and then shot when they no longer produce for them. So they make the registration limited. People know what that means, and ignore it, and then sell the puppies without papers. They had no right to breed the dog. They cheated from the get-go.

Or, the AKC came and audited their paperwork and dogs and kennels, and found them in violation and suspended or banned them from the AKC. This happens usually only if they found serious neglect, abuse, or cheating on paperwork -- registering dogs incorrectly. 

So there you have it. You did not think $300 would buy you so much. And, truthfully, papers are not adding value to the dog itself, they do not make the dog purebred or breedworthy. But without the papers, than you have no idea. Some one can still cheat on paperwork, but chances are much better for getting what you wanted, if your breeder is doing at least the absolute minimum. And the absolute minimum is starting with dogs that are registered with the accredited kennel club, AKC in the US.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

We got too focused on picking up a dog in a parking lot. That in itself isn’t a problem if it is a reputable breeder, if the buyer has seen pictures of the dogs and a pedigree and is reasonably sure the breeder is legitimate. That is a good reason to use a known breeder with a good reputation. An experienced GSD owner can meet someone in a parking lot and tell right away if a puppy is 8 weeks old or older and if it is purebred just by observing the dog. They would also be willing to walk away without buying the puppy if anything doesn’t seem right. Someone new to the breed or who doesn’t have a lot of buying experience would not. That is why we encourage new buyers to always visit the kennel, meet the breeder and parents and also research the breeder and pedigree. So a parking lot meeting itself is not a bad thing.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

E_roush said:


> Of course there are variations of every breed of dogs temperaments. But as a whole they average out to be loyal, protective, intelligent dogs. All puppies are a handful as expected no matter the breed. I 100% believe shepherds make excellent family pets even for young children because that's been my experience. I dont really think anyone is quite getting why I'm upset. I was basically scammed is the only reason it is upsetting. Yes, maybe I should have done a number of things differently to insure it didnt happen ect. I get that. Will take it all into consideration next time. It's not my puppies fault and I intend to keep him.


Now that you are keeping him if you have any questions or problems, please ask for input. I hope everything goes well. Yes, actually, we do understand that you are upset and that you feel the breeder lied to you. There are faults on both sides and you understand that too. The puppy looks very cute and I hope it turns out to be a wonderful family pet. Please continue posting as I think we are all curious to see how your puppy grows up, both how he looks as an older dog and his temperament. We are happy to help you with anything you might need to know.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I've met at least one person in the parking lot. An old guy, he didn't want to drive all the way out to me, so we met in between. Dog became his service dog, and was trained to walk with him and his wheel chair. I met another lady with an older dog in a parking lot, again it was due to distance, and we met in between. But she's since been to my house several times over the past 9 years. 

Yeah, the parking lot is not the problem. And as a single woman, I have had people show up after 11pm that I only talked to hours before on the phone. And it did give me pause a couple of times. Meeting away from home has been suggested. But then, I'm selling GSDs and not wiener dogs. That, and the gun to back them up with, I guess I am not too worried about it. But others might be. 

And another thing, we tell people, I work second shift, over the phone, and then give them our address. The wrong person can come when we are not home, kill our bitch and steal our puppies. Not everyone is as trusting. Sometimes I am too foolish, and I hope I do not pay dearly for that.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Not saying who to trust but he does look purebred to me there is quite a range in looks especially if they are backyard bred. The dam- the white female looks more like the original german shepherd dog back when the breed was originally founded there was even a big range back then that look nothing like any of the German shepherds of today. My female has white toes and white patch on her chest and she a pure bred . my male is also purebred with white patch and at 8 weeks - check out that one ear is starting to get in position and the other still floppy as a beagles - they stood around 5 months. 










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I don't know the round dome like head, the ear set, and the round eyes, added to the size, and I am seeing something small in there. But I agree that pictures of the alleged sire and dam could be pure bred dogs.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

I'll say it again: the ear set is totally wrong for a GSD. Those ears are never going to stand.

White shepherds are bred to have quite a different look from other GSDs, so yes, the parents may both be purebred, and the litter could have had more than one sire if the owners weren't watching the dam closely.


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## Talink3346 (Oct 17, 2019)

Maybe its a panda gsd but the ears are they standing yet


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

That pup is not a panda. White is permissible on the chest, and is not uncommon on the toes.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I have seen gsd’s with ear bases to low and standing ears. I have seen gsds with correct set ear bases and ears don’t stand. The pup’s sire has low base on his ears. The head does look dome shaped but how old is the pup can be younger then is stated. The lift off of ears seem to change a bit the head and ear set. I just don’t see anything of those photos that really tell me he is not purebred. You will have to wait and see how the pup grows and again they all really do look all kinds of different especially when not bred to standard. Actually the coloring reminds me much of my first gsd karat without the white. Again the only think I can say at this point your pup may be younger then what they say or not.

Max almost 7 weeks , then 8 weeks, at 10 weeks , 12 weeks. Photos in reverse. My females ears stood had a different progression and are smaller ears.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Luna has white on her chest and toes . The white on her toes lessened as they grew. Max has a white spot on his chest on his chest 
Luna









Max










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jwylie (Jun 17, 2019)

Hello! Bringing a new puppy in the home can be so much fun, happiness, worry, frustration! I can really relate to you and how you are feeling. I meet a lady in a Zaxby's parking lot and exchanged money for my puppy. 300 dollars for a 100% GSD no papers. I was not worried about papers either. Everywhere I went people ask me if he was a Malinois, and one evening I went to the dog park (don't go to those any longer) it was like GSD evening at the park. I was basically shamed out of the park .. that is not a GSD. Look at his face, look at his tail ... this is a mix, etc. I did want a GSD but now that I had him in time I didn't care if he was a mix frankly like others have said here, there are benefits for having a mixed breed. Kinda made me sad. lol We (I) wanted to belong. Snobby people lol I feel in love with my goofy puppy and he is precious to me. 

I decided just for my own gratification I would spend the money on the DNA test. I was actually excited to find out what my boy was mixed with and when the results were returned ... he is 100% GSD. Funny, I was disappointed. I had gotten so used to the idea he was mixed. I had posted here, and one comment said something like, GSD but a poorly bred GSD. It makes sense to me. In the end .. me and my dog are both poorly bred and we don't care what anyone thinks. I say to you, Welcome Welcome to the GSD loving club. I imagine, in 7, 8, 10 years you will be telling the story of how you picked this pup up in a parking lot pubic space whatever and how the dog became your daughter's best friend, playmate, and protector. 

I don't think anyone has ever loved me as much as my dog. might be for the resources but until those run out I will accept his attention as love. Good luck! and remember .. all the tough times and frustration can be combatted by love, training, and positive attitude. You will be rewarded with a Great Companion for your family. 


Baby Jack ...3 months ... and 8 months


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

There a person on here who bought her first gsd puppy in the parking lot and who became her service dog. The dog I believe fueled her passion In the breed and she became a breeder. She had not had any luck in finding a replacement for her service dog of many years once her dog passed, as I understand.


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## GSDmix (Oct 9, 2019)

We currently have a GSD mix also and everyone tells us she is Malinois. Planning to do DNA test at Christmas: a present for everyone. 
She is almost 6 months.


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## E_roush (Oct 19, 2019)

I would give you all updated pictures of my pup (Jack) but he is near impossible to get a good picture of. Every attempt so far has been a black blur.lol I wanted to give you all an example of how his tail curls. Also as a side note that I don't believe i mentioned prior, he developed kennel cough 2 days after I brought him home. Another red flag of course. We've been treating it though and I believe he is through with it thankfully. He's putting on a little more weight and filling out a bit more.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

E_roush said:


> I would give you all updated pictures of my pup (Jack) but he is near impossible to get a good picture of. Every attempt so far has been a black blur.lol I wanted to give you all an example of how his tail curls. Also as a side note that I don't believe i mentioned prior, he developed kennel cough 2 days after I brought him home. Another red flag of course. We've been treating it though and I believe he is through with it thankfully. He's putting on a little more weight and filling out a bit more.


Well, when you do manage to get those pictures, I would LOVE to see them!


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## E_roush (Oct 19, 2019)

Updated pictures of Jack!


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

It's called a gay tail, or at least that is what the vet called it back in the eightie s when I was fresh out of the military. He was from a back yard breeder. As a pup he was everything one should avoid. He turned out to be the best dog I ever owned.


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## NaughtyNibbler (Oct 28, 2018)

Looks like Jack & the cat get along? Perhaps in the curiosity stage of figuring each other out? 

I can see the tail curl. If you Google "large dog breeds with curly tails", you can find various photo collections of breeds that have curly tails. I've, also, read that a curly tail could be considered a genetic fault for a GSD. You might want to check out this older thread below, where a curly tail is discussed & photos shared
https://www.germanshepherds.com/for...ion/720314-curl-tail-german-shepherd-pup.html


The one thing that is good about digital cameras and phone cameras, is that you can keep on clicking, then keep on deleting and you end up with the keepers. One of the first photos you shared, with his head to the side is so sweet.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

I love him. He looks like a character.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

He looks alert and curious. I want to see more of his adorable face.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

I agree with the others. He looks confident and happy. Good with your cat and unicorn. 

Thanks for the pictures!


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## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

CeraDean said:


> I agree with the others. He looks confident and happy. Good with your cat and unicorn.
> 
> Thanks for the pictures!


Lol. The Unicorn struck me so funny!


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

cvamoca said:


> Lol. The Unicorn struck me so funny!


Unicorns are very serious business when little girls are in the house.


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## E_roush (Oct 19, 2019)

Yes my almost 2 year old was unicorn obsessed for a bit and now we have moved onto the Hungry Caterpillar. Everything is Eric Carle themed in her room lol Jack enjoys barking and playing with that particular unicorn though


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

Not to beat a dead horse (I stopped reading after about 10 spot on replies), but definitely not full bred and those ears will not stand up, they have a lab or beagle set to them. Not sure what you were expecting for a $350 hand off in a parking lot, but you get what you pay for. $350 is not a price for a pure GSD without papers. It's the price of a mutt. Either accept it and make the most of it, or try to find a nice home if you are forever going to be disappointed.


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## E_roush (Oct 19, 2019)

Frisco19 said:


> Not to beat a dead horse (I stopped reading after about 10 spot on replies), but definitely not full bred and those ears will not stand up, they have a lab or beagle set to them. Not sure what you were expecting for a $350 hand off in a parking lot, but you get what you pay for. $350 is not a price for a pure GSD without papers. It's the price of a mutt. Either accept it and make the most of it, or try to find a nice home if you are forever going to be disappointed.


You live in Boston. Everything is way more expensive in Boston than Ohio. Because it's Boston. Cost of living is higher there. Also yes GSD's go for 300-500 without papers often here. May not be the champion bloodline or a breeder who does all the health tests and spends big bucks ect. But you are wrong. The pictures they originally had with their post were of a german shepherd. Not my puppy. My only problem was I trusted the wrong people and should have met at their house. There are good people who breed their non-registered purebreds and take good care of the pups. They dont make a fortune selling the puppies because it's just a side hobby. My mom bred our dog some growing up and we all took amazing care of the puppies until they were old enough to go to their forever homes. Puppies that usually would go for 700-1,000 or more, my mom sold for 250 to family and like 300 to strangers. Because she was a stay at home mom and liked doing it. People who can't bring themselves to spend 1,000 dollars for a pup they have always wanted left so so happy. I would much rather pay 300-500 for a pup I want and then spoil them with the rest. I have a child. I cant spend over 400 dollars without feeling incredibly guilty right after. No matter what it is and how much we may have needed it. But I would take just as good if not better care of my baby than anyone spending 1,000-2,000 for their dog. Vets bills covered. Treats covered. Toys covered. Plenty of time to love on them and teach is definitely covered because I am a stay at home momma too. Just like I will be taking amazing care of my puppy. Sure, I'm not ignorant to the fact that there are puppy mills and "breeders" who dont care about the animals and just want money. That definitely happens a lot too but I have witnessed first hand things go the other way also. In addition, even if you DID get your puppy from one of those crappy breeders as I seemed to have gotten mine from, you're just saving them anyway. The problem with adopting from shelters verses breeders isn't necessarily the people who buy from crappy breeders. It's the people who leave their pets at shelters. Because there will always be a demand for purebreds and as long as the crappy breeders keep posing like the good ones, people will always buy from them. So just love them all. And lastly, regardless how much you pay for your dog, it's never okay to scam people. I dont think the amount spent should be a problem. I've seen people who've spent 800 be scammed just like I was. It's the people who lied. They are the ones to blame. Not the ones who are fooled and ultimately the victim of the scam. All you can do is research and hope for the best. Hope that cleared things up for ya!


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Just to be clear, you are absolutely NOT saving a dog by buying from a crap backyard breeder. You are just putting money in a liar’s pocket and allowing them to continue the cycle. They won’t stop so long as they make money. Those pups weren’t living on the street starving to death. They weren’t taking their last few breaths from being beaten so badly. Do you really think that the puppy would have been killed if you didn’t buy it? Nope. Someone else would have come along and snapped it up. The puppy wasn’t in danger. You weren’t saving or rescuing anything. You bought a dog from a crappy breeder/person, end of story. No tales of rescue or heroism involved.

OP, this isn’t directed at you. It’s more of a general “you.” I just get so frustrated when people claim to have saved or rescued a dog because it came from a breeder who only cared about money.


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## E_roush (Oct 19, 2019)

Pytheis said:


> Just to be clear, you are absolutely NOT saving a dog by buying from a crap backyard breeder. You are just putting money in a liar’s pocket and allowing them to continue the cycle. They won’t stop so long as they make money. Those pups weren’t living on the street starving to death. They weren’t taking their last few breaths from being beaten so badly. Do you really think that the puppy would have been killed if you didn’t buy it? Nope. Someone else would have come along and snapped it up. The puppy wasn’t in danger. You weren’t saving or rescuing anything. You bought a dog from a crappy breeder/person, end of story. No tales of rescue or heroism involved.
> 
> OP, this isn’t directed at you. It’s more of a general “you.” I just get so frustrated when people claim to have saved or rescued a dog because it came from a breeder who only cared about money.


And what if nobody buys those dogs? You think the owners will just keep them? That they will love and take care of them. You are 100% saving them. You think they get treated like a dog should? Just because they may not have been beaten or starving, doesn't mean they had a decent or good home at all. They were most definitely neglected of love and affection judging by mine the first few days I had him. So I'm betting they were kept with a ton of other dogs in a small space and got thrown food a couple times a day. What would happen is either someone else will buy them initially unknowingly like I did and give them a good home anyway or they WILL end up in a shelter. And you think it will ever stop? No. Like I said, all you can do is try to educate yourself and attempt to avoid them HOWEVER as long as these people pose as good honest loving pet owners, people will always get screwed and as the scammed consumer I enjoy looking at it like I saved the pupper. Because I did. Did you see the screenshot of the message from the pups original owner? You think that guy was going to love and care for the pups? Absolutely not. Hints the kennel cough mine came with. Sure, I wouldn't unknowingly walk into it again as most people would not. I mean why would anyone WANT to get scammed? Once over, the problem is with people who drop their pets off at a shelter because they're moving or because they aren't a cute puppy anymore. Those crappy breeders ARE a problem as well but speaking realistically, they will always be around. Always always always. I've seen people get scammed paying 800+ for a doggo. Not really much you can do about it except report it and try to warn others. Which I did locally.


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## jwylie (Jun 17, 2019)

I want to be super respectful and just add my two cents. I am just an everyday American woman, over 50 and trying to manage my depression and keep a will to stay alive. Everyone has a story and a struggle. After a year in counseling, I decided I was ready to commit to something anything. I wanted a dog in my life, all the positives seems so inviting, and I was scared of the responsibility. I realize you do not become a dog's person and think as soon as you can't deal with it pass it to someone else. The day came that I was ready like abolt of lightening, the moment you decide to jump! I started a local search thinking that a golden retriever was a smart choice. I looked at a picture of Jack and thought OMG my first dog was a shepherd so should my last. Might sound morbid but I am not a spring chicken. I couldn't move fast enough to get that dog. I didn't think about breeders or smart decisions or saving for the perfect dog... I had 300 dollars and fantasy of companionship. That is my prologue. 

I continue to work through life but my dog has become my conduit to the World. Working for the things he needs is keeping me alive. I came to this forum to feel a part of a community. I am a novice and this place seemed to be a great place for novice and experts alike. Enjoying stories, sharing pain and loss, achieving goals, and sharing knowledge. I have already cried so many times sharing the pain of loss and celebration of a dog's life. 

I am disappointed in some of the comments and frankly now feel like my stupid posts, questions etc could be meet with hmmm unpleasant comments. "You get what you pay for" Sure very true .. or maybe not. I say sometimes you get what you didn't pay for .. a miracle. I paid 300 for my dog from a family who said their kid had allergies. I say BS she gave me Jack with a kennel that was not big enough for a little tiny dog. I did rescue Jack just like he rescued me. 

Kinda reminds me of how I was dog shamed out of the dog park .. .Not a GSD you don't belong. It is comical to me that bad language is not allowed but rudeness flourishes. It is also funny how so many great posts can be forgotten after 1 or two rude ones. I don't need anyone anywhere to make me feel bad about my decisions and I won't participate in any shaming. 

You OP have rescued a dog and the fact that you are here and asking questions and for opinions shows your care and concern. Good luck! For me I am removing my Bookmark for is forum.. and back into my bubble. Thank you for your time and for those who read this My apology if I have been rude.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Someone will come along and snap up these puppies. They are in little danger of being dumped. The problem is that mixed breed and purebred adults are the ones frequently dumped in shelters. Well bred is rarely found in the shelter or rescue system.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

No, I doubt the breeder would have kept the pups and cared for them. I also highly doubt that any of the pups would have been left over since they were “purebred” and people like you believed it. The problem isn’t that people ditch their dogs at shelters. The problem originates with backyard breeders in the first place. Any decent breeder cares immensely about any dog they produce and require in their contract that if for any reason the dog needs a new home, no matter the age, the breeder is notified and has the right to take the dog back. If people went to good breeders or good rescues, they would always be able to return the dog and wouldn’t need to ditch them at the shelter.

All the shelters in my area are no-kill, and all of those puppies would be adopted instantly. I know. I worked for one for a year. A litter of 8 pups were put up as available and were literally all gone within hours. I know that isn’t the norm throughout the country, but I honestly don’t consider the pups rescues.

Do you think that breeder would take the puppies out back and shoot them? If you walked in right as he was about to and took the pup, sure, then maybe I’d consider it a rescue. But the breeder placing the unsold puppies in a shelter where they then get adopted right away is not a rescue in my eyes, and it never will be. I absolutely stand by the fact that you did not save or rescue your puppy and people just say it to feel good about themselves.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

E_roush said:


> You live in Boston. Everything is way more expensive in Boston than Ohio. Because it's Boston. Cost of living is higher there. Also yes GSD's go for 300-500 without papers often here. May not be the champion bloodline or a breeder who does all the health tests and spends big bucks ect. But you are wrong. The pictures they originally had with their post were of a german shepherd. Not my puppy. My only problem was I trusted the wrong people and should have met at their house. There are good people who breed their non-registered purebreds and take good care of the pups. They dont make a fortune selling the puppies because it's just a side hobby. My mom bred our dog some growing up and we all took amazing care of the puppies until they were old enough to go to their forever homes. Puppies that usually would go for 700-1,000 or more, my mom sold for 250 to family and like 300 to strangers. Because she was a stay at home mom and liked doing it. People who can't bring themselves to spend 1,000 dollars for a pup they have always wanted left so so happy. I would much rather pay 300-500 for a pup I want and then spoil them with the rest. I have a child. I cant spend over 400 dollars without feeling incredibly guilty right after. No matter what it is and how much we may have needed it. But I would take just as good if not better care of my baby than anyone spending 1,000-2,000 for their dog. Vets bills covered. Treats covered. Toys covered. Plenty of time to love on them and teach is definitely covered because I am a stay at home momma too. Just like I will be taking amazing care of my puppy. Sure, I'm not ignorant to the fact that there are puppy mills and "breeders" who dont care about the animals and just want money. That definitely happens a lot too but I have witnessed first hand things go the other way also. In addition, even if you DID get your puppy from one of those crappy breeders as I seemed to have gotten mine from, you're just saving them anyway. The problem with adopting from shelters verses breeders isn't necessarily the people who buy from crappy breeders. It's the people who leave their pets at shelters. Because there will always be a demand for purebreds and as long as the crappy breeders keep posing like the good ones, people will always buy from them. So just love them all. And lastly, regardless how much you pay for your dog, it's never okay to scam people. I dont think the amount spent should be a problem. I've seen people who've spent 800 be scammed just like I was. It's the people who lied. They are the ones to blame. Not the ones who are fooled and ultimately the victim of the scam. All you can do is research and hope for the best. Hope that cleared things up for ya!




Hi, first and foremost let me apologize. This is obviously a very emotional situation you are in and you don’t need me Monday morning quarterbacking and speaking in hindsight. What’s done is done. You obviously were wronged and misled. I don’t agree with your position on saving dogs, but that’s neither here nor there. You’re probably right about regional pricing. I’m sorry for the predicament you are in. Good luck with whatever you decide.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

I do somewhat agree with the ‘rescue’ theory. My first dog was a true rescue. She was a defense street dog with pit in her. I doubt she would have gone anywhere in a kill shelter but I took her home right from the street. For our second dog, I went to a kill shelter intending to get a non-puppy and 'save' them. I ended up with the last of the cutest litter ever. I was totally suckered by her cuteness. I believe it is a stretch to call her a 'rescue,' she would have just roped in the next person walking through that shelter. 

As far as depressed area = cheaper dogs go...I'm also on the fence. I live in Michigan. The cost of living here in ridiculously low. I'm not certain that it relates directly to price of puppy. 

The real issue here for me is if someone is searching for a breed of dog with a high propensity of health issues, that person has to demand proof of health or they are more than likely adding to the problem. 

I'm not trying to offend. Just discussing. Sorry if I do offend.


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## mmags (Nov 30, 2017)

You admitted to going the cheap and easy route when trying to get a GSD. This is why its important to find a reputable breeder and do research as well as ask to see the parents in person. Sometimes you do get what you pay for. The white dog in the picture is not a purebred shepherd and therefor, neither is your pup. That doesn't mean he wont be a great dog and companion but he is not a pure GSD. Please dont treat him differently now that you have taken him into your home. He still deserves what you would give any other dog. BTW, he is young, his size now doesnt mean much. My male GSD was only 6.5lbs at about 8 weeks old because his litter was huge. Now hes 14mo old and about 80lbs.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

I was one of those people that used to rationalize saving puppies I purchased at pet stores. I used to think, hey I got them out of there and kept them alive and safe, but truth be told, someone else would have bought them. I was ignorant to puppy mills at the time and when people questioned me on supporting puppy mills post purchase, I would defend.

The first was a Golden Doodle 13 years ago. These were fairly new to the market at the time, so much so, I said "What's that?" when they told me what kind of dogs they were. The owner of the store was a sole proprietor who was later raided in both her home and store for poor treatment to animals. It was featured on the local news. In hindsight, I should have wondered why she gave me a tube of protein paste with the purchase "in case he didn't eat". 

Three years later, I was perusing a local pet store which was around for a while and reputable. That said, when I asked if the GSD pup had "papers" she said yes. I said AKC? And she said no, it was some other registration I never heard of. Duke originated from Kansas and was definitely a mill dog taken away from his mom too early and put on a box on a truck. I later swore to never go this route and used to think "I saved" both pups, but I actually supported puppy mills or bad backyard breeders.

Live and learn. Both dogs had issues. GD had epilepsy and died at 7. GSD had fear aggression which may or not be related. He died at 10. This time around, breeder all the way, tons of research, countless hours spent with the dam and sire and the breeders.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

On AKC registered dogs, sure AKC may be over done or overrated, but, to the best of my knowledge, a pup can't be AKC registered if the lineage isn't registered, so you somewhat have a safety net that a dog is pure bred. If I was an unassuming buyer, you could rest some peace of mind on AKC registration and actually checkout the pedigree.


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## 514parts (Dec 3, 2018)

I have been searching for a GSD for ten months. I’m in Ohio and I can tell you without a doubt you do not get a pure bred dog of any kind for $330-$400. The decent ones are $2000 and up. You can tell yourself you saved that dog but you just opened a spot for the next litter that more than likely will be worse than the previous litter. 

You say you can only afford a $400 dog so that’s what you had to go with. What happens when the vet bills start coming in over the next few years?


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## E_roush (Oct 19, 2019)

You're missing my point. It's not that I CANT afford a 2,000 dog. I'm just not spending 2,000 for just the dog. I have a family. That's like a ridiculous amount of money. As I have previously posted vet bills would 110% be covered as will everything else. As they have been in the past. I have a cat that gets seen regularly. I went to a bad breeder. I didn't know. But now I do. I still stand by the fact that you do not at all have to spend a ridiculous amount of money to get a purebred german shepherd. You just dont. People do breed there pets around here and don't paper them. They just want to give them to a good home. My 2nd shepherd i grew up with is still alive and lives with my dad. My mom told me she spent 450 on him and he is completely healthy and doing great. He's the sweetest boy and he's gorgeous. My 1st was the same situation, I believe she spent 500 on him and he was the best dog I ever had. Pics of my 2nd attached. My point is yes you'll have to weed through the bad breeders but there are ones who just love their doggos and want the pups to go to good homes without giving them an arm and a leg. You can look at me like a horrible person but oh well. I have a puppy I saved ? and I'll have a shepherd eventually that I didnt have to save for a year for.lol both will be equally loved and cared for and most importantly spoiled. Some of you I will just have to agree to disagree with. I knew posting on this forum would result with some snarky comments from people eventually. That's kind of why I wasnt going to reach out. So FYI to those people, if you want a forum to help people and guide them, do so without talking down to them or being rude. It's people like you that keep others from reaching out. But to the people who were understanding and nice and helpful. I appreciate you. Anyway this will be my last reply or post on the forum. Thank you all! ?


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

I honestly don’t understand why people get so in a twist when people have different opinions than them. So many people recently have stated how rude this forum is and that it chases new members away. Well what do you think a public forum is? Somehow magically everyone is going to have the same opinion? It isn’t all unicorns and rainbows, and I don’t think someone expressing a difference of opinion is rude. Some people need to hear the hard truth. I’m sorry you think that is uncivil.

I have a whole lot more comments I want to make, but I won’t, since you think I’m rude for disagreeing. ?


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## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

I'm sorry the OP got scammed by an unscrupulous breeder. But if people keep buying those pups, he will keep breeding those dogs. If no ones buys them, he will dump the puppies at a shelter where they will be adopted and he will stop producing them. Simple supply and demand. If this person doesn't make money by doing this, he's not going to keep that up. It's too much trouble and too expensive if he doesn't get anything in return.

I used to think the way the OP does. I thought a GSD was a GSD, papered or not. They are all the same. Right? Then I stumbled onto a really nice puppy and boy has he opened up my eyes! There is no comparison whatsoever. 

It's not that the others weren't good dogs, and we loved them dearly. We were lucky with those. But this one is a completely different ball game. I swear he's at least 75% human in a dog's coat! Good and bad there, I suppose. His parents were also health tested, so I don't worry that I will lose another dog to DM.

I don't care if I have to save up for 10 years to get another well bred dog, I won't go back to those byb's. I won't even take another one for free from that type of breeding, and my neighbor has offered us one of hers. If her dog were in danger, then I probably would, but he isn't. He is well cared for right where he is.

So, for those thinking that any old GSD is just like any other, it simply isn't true. The ones that are bred with care and knowledge are a totally different realm of the breed. There is simply no comparison. And they are well worth the extra money, at least in my opinion.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

Pytheis said:


> I honestly don’t understand why people get so in a twist when people have different opinions than them. So many people recently have stated how rude this forum is and that it chases new members away. Well what do you think a public forum is? Somehow magically everyone is going to have the same opinion? It isn’t all unicorns and rainbows, and I don’t think someone expressing a difference of opinion is rude. Some people need to hear the hard truth. I’m sorry you think that is uncivil.
> 
> I have a whole lot more comments I want to make, but I won’t, since you think I’m rude for disagreeing. ?


I think it's easy to jump on the noob that knows nothing about GSD's but just got one! (exclamation is satire as it's usually in post #1). It's so easy to say, WTF are you doing with a GSD. I am guilty of it. These people either get chased away or intimidated or stick around and learn. Like that woman with Well she bit me thread.

I think the six paragraph "I know more than you do" posts all saying the same thing but having to have the final word scare people away. Threads posted by the OP very rarely end with the OP involved, it's just a bunch of lifers debating. I personally lose interest when I have to read something that long.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

This isn’t for the OP who apparently has left the forum but for anyone else reading this. This is a very friendly and helpful forum. Experienced German Shepherd owners and moderators, who are also experienced owners, take our free time and share experiences and information because we want to help. When a new member doesn’t hear what they want to hear, instead of leaving quietly for a place where they are more comfortable, they sometimes leave posting negative comments about the forum or members. It bothers me when someone flounces off after leaving a negative comment and says they will no longer read, because it doesn’t give the people who gave up sometimes hours of their time to help them any chance to respond or defend their answers. Is it rude to offer advice based on experience? Not at all. It would be far worse if we all lied so an OP could hear only what they want to hear. This forum is an excellent resource. The best way to fit in is to read a lot of posts first so you know what to expect when you post. If you post pictures, you will probably get a lot of warm, fuzzy replies. If you ask questions you will definitely get answers. What you do with those answers is up to you, but getting upset with other people who think differently based on experience is not productive.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Frisco19 said:


> I think it's easy to jump on the noob that knows nothing about GSD's but just got one! (exclamation is satire as it's usually in post #1). It's so easy to say, WTF are you doing with a GSD. I am guilty of it. These people either get chased away or intimidated or stick around and learn. Like that woman with Well she bit me thread.
> 
> I think the six paragraph "I know more than you do" posts all saying the same thing but having to have the final word scare people away. Threads posted by the OP very rarely end with the OP involved, it's just a bunch of lifers debating. I personally lose interest with I have to read something that long.


Why do we always assume posters are women? Sometimes I can’t tell from their posts.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

LuvShepherds said:


> Why do we always assume posters are women? Sometimes I can’t tell from their posts.




I don’t assume. The person I referred to in that thread is a woman. She said it. Something like I’m a single girl who works full time and lives alone. 

I have discovered here though that it *seems* there are way more female posters than males. Seems defined as they have noted their gender.

The FluffysMom username is also a sure sign

I’m a man, I like football . That’s a joke ladies!


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Oh, I missed that. Sometimes I skim long posts or I would never have time to read them.


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## NaughtyNibbler (Oct 28, 2018)

*Here are a few of the board rules that I just reviewed*
1. Be *courteous* to other members at all times;

2. *Be respectful of the feelings of others*;

6. Do not make abusive, hateful, harassing, or threatening statements;

9. *Do not use statements that incite conflict among members
*
In my opinion, too many people are used to the dynamics that take place in general social media, and they try to apply that here. There are some specific boards here, where general chat & debate is welcomed. That shouldn't be the case for all boards, and needs to be taken into consideration. *Every thread isn't supposed to be the area for a great debate, without some degree of consideration for the OP
*
Many people come here looking for help. They initiate their personal thread, looking for support. Unless someone has clearly abandoned the thread, RULE #2 needs to apply - *be respectful of the feelings of others (In this case, the OP)*

I read every post in this thread, except for what the mods deleted. The thread reached a nice conclusion for the OP, once the OP stated she would keep Jack & shared his name & a few more photos. She already realized that she made a mistake, was taken advantage of & felt bad about it. She made attempts in multiple posts to explain that & stop the flow of debates. As a new member, and for her benefit, it was not productive for her to have a debate go on & on & on. The opinions & debate kept on flowing. Some of the post were clearly made by members who weren't reading relevant post from the OP & what she was trying to express. 

People who are upset & initiate their personal thread, deserve some consideration & respect. It's their thread, not yours. It's okay to share something for the benefit of the OP or to share a different opinion. The OP is entitled to their personal feelings. You may not agree with what they feel, but best to NOT invalidate them. I suspect that I may stand alone with this, but I totally agree with the OP's last post. 

Then there were several post about others being upset, because of what the OP said, after she was invalidated. The fact that no one felt bad for the OP, is somewhat telling. 

I'm rather vintage & I've participated in helpful forums for many years. The 4 rules, displayed above are strictly enforced on most other forum websites. It's, also, made clear that in most threads, the objective is to help the OP & be respectful & considerate. It's fine to have a different opinion or experience to share, but if you can't respectfully engage with a new member who is already upset, without making them feel disrespected and/or have their feelings invalidated, then you should consider not posting in that thread.


Maybe a moderator can correct me if I'm wrong, but I want to believe that this forum is really intended to be a helpful & respectful environment & NOT follow the examples of general social media.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

Frisco19 said:


> I don’t assume. The person I referred to in that thread is a woman. She said it. Something like I’m a single girl who works full time and lives alone.
> 
> I have discovered here though that it *seems* there are way more female posters than males. Seems defined as they have noted their gender.
> 
> ...



And I'm not a man, and I love football! Go Browns!:wink2:


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

@NaughtyNibbler time perhaps to take a break from this thread?Your statement above is likely to incite a bit of conflict also.Emotional discussions tend to drift in that direction.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

NaughtyNibbler said:


> *Here are a few of the board rules that I just reviewed*
> 1. Be *courteous* to other members at all times;
> 
> 2. *Be respectful of the feelings of others*;
> ...




What you want this forum to be is admirable and I agree. I will say that when a thread gets long, sometime people read the original question or comments and answer. Myself included and I can do a better job at that. 

Forums are a natural facility for debate unfortunately. What you describe as a kind and gentle forum was this place 10 years ago. Now it’s a bunch of drama, egos and SME’s. Humility can be a wonderful thing.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

Frisco19 said:


> What you want this forum to be is admirable and I agree. I will say that when a thread gets long, sometime people read the original question or comments and answer. Myself included and I can do a better job at that.
> 
> Forums are a natural facility for debate unfortunately. What you describe as a kind and gentle forum was this place 10 years ago. Now it’s a bunch of drama, egos and SME’s. Humility can be a wonderful thing.


I don't want to scare anyone away and I do understand being intimidated and disheartened by responses to a post of your own. I was probably guilty of joining the debate in this thread. I guess I felt like it was a conversation and didn't fully take into account the emotions attached to the logic of the situation. But does that mean that if we have debate, we should open up another thread to debate a topic brought up in another thread? Or not debate at all? I feel like a lot can be learned from debate.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

CeraDean said:


> I don't want to scare anyone away and I do understand being intimidated and disheartened by responses to a post of your own. I was probably guilty of joining the debate in this thread. I guess I felt like it was a conversation and didn't fully take into account the emotions attached to the logic of the situation. But does that mean that if we have debate, we should open up another thread to debate a topic brought up in another thread? Or not debate at all? I feel like a lot can be learned from debate.




I don’t think there is any right or wrong answer. It’s a balance. I have never thought anything negative about your posts. It’s the people that cross the line and drive it home with a vengeance.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Anyone who thinks a rule has been broken on any thread for any reason, by ANY poster - new member veteran or otherwise - please use the “Report” function and type a comment or explanation as you feel appropriate with that report. 

Every comment on every thread is not reviewed in real time, but ALL reports are reviewed by mods and admins when next s/he logs in.


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## NaughtyNibbler (Oct 28, 2018)

dogma13 said:


> @*NaughtyNibbler* time perhaps to take a break from this thread?Your statement above is likely to incite a bit of conflict also.Emotional discussions tend to drift in that direction.


Thanks for the nudge. I really do need to make better use of my time.

*As a Parting Note; *New members will continue to leave, as long as other fail to understand & empathize with why they leave.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

ksotto333 said:


> And I'm not a man, and I love football! Go Browns!:wink2:




I was SO waiting for a woman to jab me back on that one! Patriots vs Browns this week! I can’t stand Baker Mayfield. I’m sure you feel the same way about Tommy boy.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

Frisco19 said:


> I was SO waiting for a woman to jab me back on that one! Patriots vs Browns this week! I can’t stand Baker Mayfield. I’m sure you feel the same way about Tommy boy.


So I'm not a big Brady fan although he's so good. I like Baker's enthusiasm, God knows we've needed a spark for a while. Not sure why we hired a head coach with so little experience and of course once you got Belichick he started winning. Oh well, I'm done venting, at least the Buckeyes are looking good.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

I am sorry the OP left. I just wanted to see more pictures of that adorable puppy.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

GO BROWNS! Yes, I saw that ronchy patriots game Monday. And no I really am not a Brady fan, but it is Belicheck I can't stand, and LOVE to watch lose. Just doesn't happen too often, but when it does, I am watching and enjoying. I like Baker, but he is really still a rookie and he is going to make mistakes. I think we got our franchise quarterback. I sure hope so.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

selzer said:


> GO BROWNS! Yes, I saw that ronchy patriots game Monday. And no I really am not a Brady fan, but it is Belicheck I can't stand, and LOVE to watch lose. Just doesn't happen too often, but when it does, I am watching and enjoying. I like Baker, but he is really still a rookie and he is going to make mistakes. I think we got our franchise quarterback. I sure hope so.




Gotta love our Baker Mayfield!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

jwylie said:


> I want to be super respectful and just add my two cents. I am just an everyday American woman, over 50 and trying to manage my depression and keep a will to stay alive. Everyone has a story and a struggle. After a year in counseling, I decided I was ready to commit to something anything. I wanted a dog in my life, all the positives seems so inviting, and I was scared of the responsibility. I realize you do not become a dog's person and think as soon as you can't deal with it pass it to someone else. The day came that I was ready like abolt of lightening, the moment you decide to jump! I started a local search thinking that a golden retriever was a smart choice. I looked at a picture of Jack and thought OMG my first dog was a shepherd so should my last. Might sound morbid but I am not a spring chicken. I couldn't move fast enough to get that dog. I didn't think about breeders or smart decisions or saving for the perfect dog... I had 300 dollars and fantasy of companionship. That is my prologue.
> 
> I continue to work through life but my dog has become my conduit to the World. Working for the things he needs is keeping me alive. I came to this forum to feel a part of a community. I am a novice and this place seemed to be a great place for novice and experts alike. Enjoying stories, sharing pain and loss, achieving goals, and sharing knowledge. I have already cried so many times sharing the pain of loss and celebration of a dog's life.
> 
> ...


There are two things going on here. There are folks that are trying to discourage certain behaviors and educate folks because of the terrible plight of dogs that are kept by unethical and unscrupulous breeders. And there is the perception that folks are shaming people for buying dogs from BYBs. 

I think it is mostly how it comes across. We have to confront evil where we see it. A person who believes they are helping dogs by buying from a bad source is not evil. In fact the great evil is using the compassion people have to dupe them, or to profit from them. And this happens. Why do they put puppies in those tiny cages in pet stores? So they can have more per square foot? Maybe. But also because people see the cages and think that poor puppy's live is a 2' by 2.5' box. And they literally can't leave them there. That is evil. If someone pays $1800 to rescue that puppy from that box, than 3 or 4 more bitches kept in worse conditions will be bred when you walk out that door with puppy. The pet store owner is on the phone to fill that box again with another puppy. And the puppy broker is on the phone with puppy breeders, and another bitch is held back to be bred over and over again in gruesome conditions. 

This is the kind of evil that we want to see stopped. So when we try to tell someone, they aren't rescuing a dog, if they are paying an unscrupulous breeder money for that dog, that breeder will continue, keep more dogs and breed more dogs. The only thing that will stop them is if the dogs don't sell. What will happen to them. Some will take them and shoot them. That's horrible. Illegal most places, but with enough property, shoot, shovel, shut up. The worst of the worst will shoot them. Others will sell them at auction to other breeders, most of whom are as bad. This is because good breeders are not getting their dogs from these sources. So only crappy breeders are participating in this. Others will dump them in a shelter, and there they will probably find a home, because still only 25% of dogs are purebred in shelters and the poplular breeds often do get out of most shelters that aren't PETA shelters. 

The breeder who shoots pups or dogs because he cannot sell them, well, that does stop him from breeding more of the dogs, and keeping dogs living in horrendous conditions. It is not a solution any of us want to think about. But the alternative is to give him money, with which he buys more animals that are condemned to living horror story. 

Ohio is bad for puppy mills. 

I live in Ohio. And I think too, that we have a lot of poor people here, and the whole nine yards. But then I worked for a while putting on events. And I see people spending 10k - 30k for one night's worth of drinking. One party. These are folks that wouldn't pay $1500 for a dog. I saw more hundred dollar bills coming out at a drinking party, a beauty contest or something, loud music, and booze, people dropping hundreds like I drop pennies. From a breeder perspective, I can tell you stories. 

Ah well. Yes, you can find good folks that will take good care of a shelter dog, or a dog from a breeder who charges next to nothing for their puppies. But, you will also find folks who spend more time and money and energy on a critter before they even buy it, who will give it excellent care, and not try to bargain with the breeder. "The workman is worthy of his hire." A good breeder does more than put a dog with a bitch, deliver the pups, and raise them for eight weeks. They are worthy of compensation for their experience, industry, risk, work, and the product they produce. 

I don't know. This site is very welcoming of mixes and rescues. Like our dogs, we do not care where you got your dog from, it's yours, you love it, and that is what matters. Except that we do want to point out that we do not want folks to encourage "rescuing" puppies/dogs from scoundrels by buying them from them.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

dogfaeries said:


> Gotta love our Baker Mayfield!




I definitely can understand the disdain for the Patriots outside of New England. All we do is win and it is annoying for the rest of the country. Belichick is such a good coach, he is the difference. 

I can’t help rooting against Baker. He really hasn’t done anything but he acts and talks about himself like he is Aaron Rodgers. I hope he turns out to be another Johnny Manziel. Pats defense is going to eat him up Sunday.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Maybe we can carry this discussion to the Chat forum. I’m always up for some good sports talk.


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## Shane'sDad (Jul 22, 2010)

Pytheis said:


> I honestly don’t understand why people get so in a twist when people have different opinions than them. So many people recently have stated how rude this forum is and that it chases new members away. Well what do you think a public forum is? Somehow magically everyone is going to have the same opinion? It isn’t all unicorns and rainbows, and I don’t think someone expressing a difference of opinion is rude. Some people need to hear the hard truth. I’m sorry you think that is uncivil.
> 
> I have a whole lot more comments I want to make, but I won’t, since you think I’m rude for disagreeing. ?



This^^^^^ it's what forums are and it's what members do in ALL forums....they have different opinions and express them in different ways...some have the same basic opinions as others and yet put them into words (replies) in harsher terms.....I'm a member of multiple car forums-engine forums--.home improvement and political forums.....this forum IMO is very tame....just a general rule for some of you moving forward if you actually think replies on this thread were rude as opposed to simply opinionated ....maybe you're simply too thin skinned to be on any forum....oh and btw ..sorry if my opinion comes off as rude..... hopefully a few folk who are thinking about a new pup.... will be able to weed through all the rude replies and come up with a wise plan getting their dog....


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

In the three years I’ve been here, I honestly haven’t posted all that much. I rarely post when there are heated discussions or debates. I only post during those times if something bothers me so much that I can’t help myself, or I think someone needs to hear the honest truth and everyone is skirting around it. I don’t believe that makes me rude. If anything, that makes me blunt. Some people may see that as the same thing. I don’t.

I have absolutely nothing against BYB dogs. I have a byb golden retriever right now! I love her just the same as my well bred GSD. I have nothing against mixes or rescue dogs. What I do have a problem with is people adding fuel to the flames of Peta and the Adopt, Don’t Shop crowd by claiming they rescued a pup from a breeder. It does nothing but hurt real, ethical breeders and people that choose to have well bred dogs. It also continues to reward awful people for treating their dogs the way they do and allow them to continue.

I don’t think the OP’s dog is any less worthy of anything than any other dog. I wasn’t even interested in posting in this thread until misinformation was stated that hurts purebred dogs (or any pet at all because of Peta) and I wanted to express this OPINION, as I have a right to do. I’m sorry that some people took it the wrong way and got defensive or felt like I was attacking them. I wasn’t.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

I understand not wanting to support BYBs, puppy mills, etc. I understand the desire to educate people. But.... I am disappointed in the turn of this thread. Early on, first few pages, people commented on the importance of not making these types of purchases. And did so rather diplomatically, if I might add. Things were going along pretty well through page 6. (At least 6 on my screen.) The OP had decided to keep the pup. He/she posted pictures of 'Jack'. Others were posting encouraging thoughts. 

Then, as always happens, someone comes in, in the middle - except they are back at the beginning. People start to reiterate what a bad idea this purchase was, except now it is not so diplomatic. The OP feels attacked and becomes defensive. in return his/her defenses are attacked. The OP left. We are talking about sports.

Yes is it a public forum. I remember when this was a kinder, more considerate place. You can't change someones' mind by hitting them upside the head. You can't change someones' way of thinking by chasing them off the board either. So yeah, we went from page 6 to this and I am sad.


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## Wolfedude88 (Aug 10, 2017)

514parts said:


> I have been searching for a GSD for ten months. I’m in Ohio and I can tell you without a doubt you do not get a pure bred dog of any kind for $330-$400. The decent ones are $2000 and up. You can tell yourself you saved that dog but you just opened a spot for the next litter that more than likely will be worse than the previous litter.
> 
> You say you can only afford a $400 dog so that’s what you had to go with. What happens when the vet bills start coming in over the next few years?



I hate to tell that you are wrong but you most certainly can get a pure bred German Shepherd for $400 in Ohio. I live in Indiana and when I was looking I saw that prices in that same bracket. I paid $650 for mine with papers and not doing enough research into byb admittedly, but none the less they are in that price ranger especially without papers.(Not saying you should get those or that there aren't better ones without prop health checkups, etc., but they do exist.)

Heck my dad paid $150 for a pure bred german shepherd(no papers) and she is gorgeous, that deal doesn't happen often though.

I will say if I ever get another shepherd I will buy from a reputable breeder this time, with a lot more research done on my end. But my Luna has been the best dog I've could of asked for. Thankfully!!


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

The later posts happen because people respond to the first post without reading where the thread has gone. Rather than try to tell people what to post, maybe we should warn the OPs they might see posts from people who haven’t read beyond post #1.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> The later posts happen because people respond to the first post without reading where the thread has gone. Rather than try to tell people what to post, maybe we should warn the OPs they might see posts from people who haven’t read beyond post #1.


The worst I have seen on this forum is when OPs come here and lure people in as if they are looking for help and advice when what they really want is validation. They tend to become quite combative when people make a suggestion or try to help them. Then there are the newbies that do come for free help but they want it served their way. If these newbies keep cyberbullying those who can help into silence, who will be left to help anybody and what will happen to the forum?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> I understand not wanting to support BYBs, puppy mills, etc. I understand the desire to educate people. But.... I am disappointed in the turn of this thread. Early on, first few pages, people commented on the importance of not making these types of purchases. And did so rather diplomatically, if I might add. Things were going along pretty well through page 6. (At least 6 on my screen.) The OP had decided to keep the pup. He/she posted pictures of 'Jack'. Others were posting encouraging thoughts.
> 
> Then, as always happens, someone comes in, in the middle - except they are back at the beginning. People start to reiterate what a bad idea this purchase was, except now it is not so diplomatic. The OP feels attacked and becomes defensive. in return his/her defenses are attacked. The OP left. We are talking about sports.
> 
> *Yes is it a public forum. I remember when this was a kinder, more considerate place. You can't change someones' mind by hitting them upside the head. You can't change someones' way of thinking by chasing them off the board either. So yeah, we went from page 6 to this and I am sad*.


When was that? Because Shadow just turned 9 and I got shredded about everything when I joined, I think 2013. 
I have been called names, told I was stupid, told I should leave, told to go buy a lab. The members here are not always nice, some are never nice, I just don't go cry in my soup every time someone disagrees with me. 
If I wanted to be treated nice the last place I would go is a forum. Lol.
As to the OPs dog, I'm kinda bummed. Cute pup, I was looking forward to more pictures.


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## 4K9Mom (Jun 19, 2019)

*Yup*



Stevenzachsmom said:


> I understand not wanting to support BYBs, puppy mills, etc. I understand the desire to educate people. But.... I am disappointed in the turn of this thread. Early on, first few pages, people commented on the importance of not making these types of purchases. And did so rather diplomatically, if I might add. Things were going along pretty well through page 6. (At least 6 on my screen.) The OP had decided to keep the pup. He/she posted pictures of 'Jack'. Others were posting encouraging thoughts.
> 
> Then, as always happens, someone comes in, in the middle - except they are back at the beginning. People start to reiterate what a bad idea this purchase was, except now it is not so diplomatic. The OP feels attacked and becomes defensive. in return his/her defenses are attacked. The OP left. We are talking about sports.
> 
> Yes is it a public forum. I remember when this was a kinder, more considerate place. You can't change someones' mind by hitting them upside the head. You can't change someones' way of thinking by chasing them off the board either. So yeah, we went from page 6 to this and I am sad.


I remember that too.

I started here in 2006, posted here for years, then left for a while. I couldn’t break into my old “crowned user” account so I created this one.

It’s fascinating to see how people treat new users.

The funny thing is that in the intervening years, I was training both my dogs and doing train-the-trainer workshops. I was going to conferences, reading almost every training book out there. I’ve been learning about veterinary medicine, including reading veterinary medicine textbooks.

I know the research, the science and what is known to work. I post a long detailed description of what could help a user’s dog, Then I get snarky retorts from people standing on the side, not people offering suggestions, just critics.

I can find it amusing because I’m confident in what I know. I can support it with citations.

But that can be devastating to people seeking help or trying to stick their neck out to be helpful for the first or second time. 

Quantity of posts doesn’t equal quality.

This place used to be more compassionate.

Of course, buying from BYBs and puppy mills isn’t great, but bullying humans honestly seeking help Is awful.


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## MrGSD (Dec 7, 2018)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> If these newbies keep cyberbullying those who can help into silence, who will be left to help anybody and what will happen to the forum?


It's a 2 way street as there are veteran members that spew childish nonsense that drive away new members. And its not a question of thin skinned, but more a low level of tolerance for these types of immature antics. A successful forum needs new members as much as it needs its seasoned ones.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> When was that? Because Shadow just turned 9 and I got shredded about everything when I joined, I think 2013.
> I have been called names, told I was stupid, told I should leave, told to go buy a lab. The members here are not always nice, some are never nice, I just don't go cry in my soup every time someone disagrees with me.
> If I wanted to be treated nice the last place I would go is a forum. Lol.
> As to the OPs dog, I'm kinda bummed. Cute pup, I was looking forward to more pictures.


Seems to me it's been trending toward the "nicer" in recent years. Mods have alwa


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> When was that? Because Shadow just turned 9 and I got shredded about everything when I joined, I think 2013.
> I have been called names, told I was stupid, told I should leave, told to go buy a lab. The members here are not always nice, some are never nice, I just don't go cry in my soup every time someone disagrees with me.
> If I wanted to be treated nice the last place I would go is a forum. Lol.
> As to the OPs dog, I'm kinda bummed. Cute pup, I was looking forward to more pictures.


Seems to me it's been trending toward " nicer" in recent years, i agree there was a stretch during 11-14 -ish? where posts were very "blunt" for lack of a better term.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

I think it's trending towards nicer in recent months because certain members are more aware of how much of a turn off some members replies sound.

It's as simple as showing some *humility* and having *empathy*. Recognizing when you are wrong, admitting when you are wrong and putting yourself in the shoes of a newbie. In terms of this thread, it got so friggin long with 90% of the posts making it sound like the guy is an idiot. Myself included I think, but then I stepped back, actually painfully read the thread completely and put myself in his shoes and apologized for coming on strong. Sure, there were a lot of red flags, but what was done was done. He was not looking for validation, but to that point, I don't think it's all about newbies looking for validation, but when people jump in on the person with their first GSD and basically tell them they are an idiot, they are ruining their dog, they should re-home it, etc. Piling it on, repeating what other members already noted (sucking up). Who wouldn't get defensive? Not everyone posting here for the first time is an expert. Even the people who think they are experts aren't experts, they are often experts with their own dog or experience.

I don't know, I have learned a lot since I re-joined this place. Especially from my mistakes. I am trying to be self aware and make it better, kinder and gentler. If I slip, I don't dig in and try to fall on my sword.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Something to think about (in general) ~

Even if someone chooses not to open the app or visit this website, most OPs receive emailed copies of responses to their threads. I believe it’s still the default option to “subscribe” to your own threads, unless you choose otherwise. 

Those emailed thread responses can either spark curiosity and motivate someone to return, or have the opposite effect.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

MrGSD said:


> It's a 2 way street as there are veteran members that spew childish nonsense that drive away new members. And its not a question of thin skinned, but more a low level of tolerance for these types of immature antics. A successful forum needs new members as much as it needs its seasoned ones.


I don't view it as new vs seasoned members. I see it either as a group of GSD lovers coming together to discuss varying aspects of this breed or I see it as those who can't, most of which are trying, seeking help from those who can. The only way to use "seasoned" on this forum should come from a skill and experience level with this breed POV, not time here. Don't get me wrong. Every person, GSD, and environmental situation is unique so even newbies can bring a fresh experience and that's all good but I have seen some of the most talented people dragged through the crud here and I am talking the most skilled people on this forum. A German Shepherd is a working breed. By default this is a working dog forum. That doesn't mean that all dogs here were bred to work or that all working dogs can't simply be pets. If the experts continue to leave, this forum will deteriorate into a strictly pet dog forum of not too much use for most GSD owners. After all, one of the most often given advice on this forum is to go find a trainer experienced with this breed.

Something I find highly interesting is if you look back and read threads from back in the good old days where some people claim that most people were courteous and polite, you'll find that there is an inordinate amount of permanent banning, especially of those who contributed heavily and somewhat longterm. In the few years that I have been here, that's not something I see happening with any frequency. Change of people, change of mods, who knows? But I will say that I see a level of fairness in the most active of the current mods far more than when I first came here. I have actually seen a change for the better in this group's moderation.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I did not post much when I first joined because of the tone of many posters. At the time I was heavily involved in rescue, and the attitude toward people with different experiences was not something I chose to be a part of. I agree, the moderation here is thoughtful and helpful now, and the board is better for it.


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## Shane'sDad (Jul 22, 2010)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The worst I have seen on this forum is when OPs come here and lure people in as if they are looking for help and advice when what they really want is validation. They tend to become quite combative when people make a suggestion or try to help them. Then there are the newbies that do come for free help but they want it served their way. If these newbies keep cyberbullying those who can help into silence, who will be left to help anybody and what will happen to the forum?



MAWL.....you've had posts I disagree with and posts I 100% agree with.....but this post is your best of any thread I've been involved with hands down.....:thumbup:


Your post goes to exactly why IMO this thread was started ( validation) and exactly where it ended up going..... long time members here getting blasted for being rude....judgemental or today's politically correct term "shaming"....I really don't know what people ( some members here) expect responses to be when a thread is started with the amount of detail related to the purchase of this dog from the op....what did some of you expect when someone who claims to know dogs...grew up with GSDs..posts up a pic of a puppy and asks if members think the pup is purebred ??....well if you were expecting a chorus "attagirl good job"..."smart purchase" or "you go girl".... from a dog forum sorry to disappoint ....maybe next time.....


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## Shane'sDad (Jul 22, 2010)

MrGSD said:


> It's a 2 way street as there are veteran members that spew childish nonsense that drive away new members. And its not a question of thin skinned, but more a low level of tolerance for these types of immature antics. A successful forum needs new members as much as it needs its seasoned ones.



When you get a chance why don't you PM a couple links to some online GSD forums that are more "successful" than this forum....you know what I mean---more members--- more traffic than right here......thanks


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

This thread keeps on getting more and more vague. I don't think we should group ourselves and then start assigning blame, especially in these blanketed categories. Its a little frustrating trying to figure out if somebody's comments are directed at me or if they are direct at person 'B.'

Fact is that this thread chased off two members. Maybe that was an inevitable conclusion and the people that were chased off had the wrong attitude (thin skinned, looking for validation), maybe we as a whole did something to make them not welcome (rude, judgmental, inconsiderate), maybe (probably) it was a combination of both. I think all we can do is try to be more aware in the future.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

Shane'sDad said:


> When you get a chance why don't you PM a couple links to some online GSD forums that are more "successful" than this forum....you know what I mean---more members--- more traffic than right here......thanks


I don't think he was saying he knew of other successful forums, he was suggesting that successful forums need new people. As you know, this place is the only old school forum out there left that doesn't have it last post from six months ago. I don't know if you have a history with this dude, but his suggestion seemed legit and harmless and your kind of coming at him which is kind of what we are talking about, with all due respect.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I just want to mention that as this thread skewed off topic, my comment was not directed at OP but was just a general comment referencing OP's from the past. I would like to think that my first post on this thread was positive and supportive of OP's puppy and void of any judgment of the OP even though my comment was directly oppositional from that of other more "seasoned" commentors.

I think one other thing that people over look in this forum that people are here for the dogs. Yes, we need to be courteous and treat others with respect, but I see things rapidly spiral toward the negative when people take things personal and become offended when other members prioritize the welfare of the breed over that of risking offense.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

I see too many people taking the welfare of the breed out of context and waaaayyyy too seriously. They are dogs, they are pet. GSD's are very smart dogs and very smart pets, unassuming people get them. But don't rationalize bad or rude behavior because you think you are an ambassador of the breed.

Not directed at you^. This thread should really die. So I'm not going to post on it anymore.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I have rarely see anyone, new or not, behaving badly or rudely to newbies. If anything, I see bad behaviors during interactions with people who are "seasoned" based on time here, personalities developing, histories, or a host of other reasons. I can't recall a newbie ever being spoken to rudely by anybody although I have seen numerous times when newbies exploded on other members, skilled or not, new or seasoned.


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## Shane'sDad (Jul 22, 2010)

Frisco19 said:


> I don't think he was saying he knew of other successful forums, he was suggesting that successful forums need new people. As you know, this place is the only old school forum out there left that doesn't have it last post from six months ago. I don't know if you have a history with this dude, but his suggestion seemed legit and harmless and your kind of coming at him which is kind of what we are talking about, with all due respect.



Nope ...no history... just never have been partial to anyone who posts in any thread that has run its course...(in this case the OP had left supposedly)....after the fact....here's what I got from his post and it goes like this......this IMO already "successful" forum would... in his mind be "successful".....if some of the seasoned members either hadn't posted OR hadn't answered in the way they had--you see I'm one who did post to this thread and yes!!.... I'm very thin skinned---yes I used that term in a post here but I'm NOT thin skinned in that my feelings get hurt and I walk away never to return...you see when I feel like I'm being called out...I'll fight every time..in the forums case I use words....


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

Shane'sDad said:


> Nope ...no history... just never have been partial to anyone who posts in any thread that has run its course...(in this case the OP had left supposedly)....after the fact....here's what I got from his post and it goes like this......this IMO already "successful" forum would... in his mind be "successful".....if some of the seasoned members either hadn't posted OR hadn't answered in the way they had--you see I'm one who did post to this thread and yes!!.... I'm very thin skinned---yes I used that term in a post here but I'm NOT thin skinned in that my feelings get hurt and I walk away never to return...you see when I feel like I'm being called out...I'll fight every time..in the forums case I use words....


Got it, didn't have all the context. We are similar in that way in terms of being called out and response! I lied, this is my last post, just wanted to acknowledge.


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## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

CeraDean said:


> This thread keeps on getting more and more vague. I don't think we should group ourselves and then start assigning blame, especially in these blanketed categories. Its a little frustrating trying to figure out if somebody's comments are directed at me or if they are direct at person 'B.'
> 
> *Fact is that this thread chased off two members. Maybe that was an inevitable conclusion and the people that were chased off had the wrong attitude (thin skinned, looking for validation), maybe we as a whole did something to make them not welcome (rude, judgmental, inconsiderate), maybe (probably) it was a combination of both. I think all we can do is try to be more aware in the future*.



Which two members left? I must not have caught it, the OP didn't say she or he was leaving did they? (I didn't see what posts the mods removed, either) 


It's a freaking shame that people get sucked in to buying dogs that are obviously not German Shepherds, but it isn't the forum's or member's fault, either. I thought for the first 6 or 7 pages people were reasonably diplomatic. I was early on the thread pretty direct, but that's who I am. I know a fair amount about genetics, and I believe that puppy was not purebred German Shepherd. 

If you are looking at a puppy and want to know if it's purebred, consider the price, don't care if you live in puppy mill country or not. Ask a forum AHEAD of time. 

I spent a depressing amount of time the last week following the "Lancaster puppy" site, which I've heard is mostly (I'm not going to the name of the religious groups, think about it...) puppy mill dogs, all dressed up pretty. Many of those puppies had "registries" I've never heard of, certainly not AKC. It was rather horrifying.

I've been guilty of being annoyed in some threads, and it shows. Sometimes it's because ex members are playing silly-bugger with new personas, etc. You get so you don't want to post anymore.
But regardless, I apologize to old members, new members, and mods. 

New folks, we don't ALL bite all the time, sometimes we just gum you a bit...!


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

cvamoca said:


> Which two members left? I must not have caught it, the OP didn't say she or he was leaving did they? (I didn't see what posts the mods removed, either)


Answer to the question. Post 66 we lost jwylie and post 75 we lost the OP E_roush.



jwylie said:


> For me I am removing my Bookmark for is forum.. and back into my bubble.





E_roush said:


> Anyway this will be my last reply or post on the forum.


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## Stellalv (Jul 16, 2018)

he's super cute, if you want to know what he is, get a DNA kit, I used Wisdom Panel for my 3 rescues , my GSD turned out to be 87.5% GSD and 12.5% Boxer, which i think I hit the jackpot when I adopted him last year, I love both of those breeds and I have the best of both in one!! he's freakin handsome ... it only took 30 days for the results.. good luck


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

CeraDean said:


> Answer to the question. Post 66 we lost jwylie and post 75 we lost the OP E_roush.


And we lost Post 90 NaughtyNibbler


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## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> And we lost Post 90 NaughtyNibbler



Oh, I thought NaughtyNibbler was just withdrawing from the thread, not the forum. 

Bummer on the losses. :frown2:


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

I hope we didn't lose NaughtyNibbler! His/her trials & tribulations unfortunately, would sometimes make me laugh. NaughtyNibbler's dog is exhausting, smart and does such funny things. Maybe because my own dog is the opposite - he is mellow, obedient, quiet, dutiful, serious - that's why I (evilly) enjoyed NaughtyNibbler's complaining posts!

Anyway wow, I didn't make it all the way through reading this thread, I think I stopped reading when the OP said they would keep their dog and enjoy him...I guess it took a turn for the worse, sadly.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> And we lost Post 90 NaughtyNibbler


Nope. Just from the thread. Logged on yesterday.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

It makes me sad when people leave, but it’s their choice. They can always stick around and try to make things better rather than get hurt feelings and disappear. Talking things out usually goes a long way to getting along.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> It makes me sad when people leave, but it’s their choice. They can always stick around and try to make things better rather than get hurt feelings and disappear. Talking things out usually goes a long way to getting along.


 th

Sad part is that all these hurt feelings are nothing but wrong perceptions. If they would talk to people they might find out things aren't what they thought they were.


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## T'Challa! (Dec 4, 2019)

E_roush said:


> We finally decided to introduce a new puppy into our family (we had just 1 cat) and obviously I went for the shepherd breed because I grew up with them and love their temperament. Especially when it comes to kids. I didn't care to get a registered shepherd because he will just be a pet and didn't want to spend the extra 300 plus for the papers. So with that being said, I found one online not very far from me. Mom is a white shepherd and dad is a black and tan. Mom is a little on the small side. I didn't actually meet them. They sent pics because we met at a public place. I was told my baby was 9 weeks old and that he was the runt. They gave me shot records and handed me the puppy with a collar and food. Looking at pictures of other shepherds, he just seems too small. Even if he is the runt. Also he has white markings on his toes and his tail curls a lot typically when he's walking around. So far he has been hard to train which I'm not used to in shepherds, even puppies. I've attached some pictures taken a couples days after I brought him home and some of the parents. In your opinion is he pure bred? I know you cant 110% tell without papers but just want an opinion.


your puppy looks great, there is a similar post on here about how small their puppy is, the runt is usually under fed or its possible they are younger than stated, looking at the parents the white marking could just be because mom is white. My boy was only 23 lbs when he was 3 months but now hes about 90lbs and just turned a year. The runts can surprise you as they grow just make sure you feed him a lot and he gets good exercise, other than that I don't think you can go wrong with your puppy!


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