# For or Against: Punishment or Roughness in Training



## GSD Fan (Sep 20, 2010)

What I mean by punishment is . . . let's say you have a dog that likes to poop in the house. So what you do, is you pop the dog on the nose and stick his or her nose in it. That's what I mean by punishment. Now what I mean by roughness in training is like jerking the leash on the dog. It's not exactly punishment, but it's rough.

So when you train a dog or dogs, are you for or against using punishment or roughness in your training?

I myself really don't know enough to have a say in this. I read in books that punishment and roughness actually have a reverse effect. I've never popped a dog on the nose, but I did have problems using the training methods that I read about. Like for example, my last dog would not stay still enough for me to put the halti on. She would bite my hands and chew on the halti. One day some guests came over and saw this and the man said, "Why don't you slap the mess outta him? He'll stop then". 

I don't know enough to say whether or not I had done that would she have stayed still.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Punishment has no place in dog training. Dogs do not understand punishment, especially after the effect. It is a human concept, not a dog one.

Corrections often do have a place. But they are not to serve as punishment, rather as information to the dog to bring clarity. What form an effective and appropriate correction takes will depend on the dog. For some it might be "no", for other's it might be a leash pop. Whether a correction is "too rough" would really depend on the individual dog. 

"Roughness" is such a subjective term as to be meaningless, IMO, so I cannot answer the poll.

If one thinks a leash pop of any sort is "rough" well then I guess I'm pro-rough at times, depending on the dog. Though it's certainly no where near as "rough" as the corrections dogs give to one another.


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## mssandslinger (Sep 21, 2010)

I personally feel that dogs respond better with positive reinforcement, instead of jerking the collar to get attention, say their name in a happy voice and give a treat when they follow you. then learn that you are the best thing around. They aren't afraid of you. but its from my opinion, I know some friends in Shutzhund training who beg to differ with me. but my way works for my dogs


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Great reply Chris!


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

mssandslinger said:


> I personally feel that dogs respond better with positive reinforcement, instead of jerking the collar to get attention, say their name in a happy voice and give a treat when they follow you.


How confident would you be with this training with your dog in a room full of wide open hazards? Like a garage full of poisonous substances?
I only say this because I tend to agree that punishing your dog isn't worth tormenting them for training purposes, but yesterday, out of nowhere one of my dogs decided to run out onto the road (they never do this) and it would have been nice at the time for them to know in the back of their mind that when mom catches up with them, they're going to be beaten senselss.
I often see dogs at the park whose owners can get mad and yell loud enough for their dogs to know they mean business and no matter what is happening, they should stop what they're doing right then. I'd like to be able to do that but unfortunately my dogs know I'm full of sh1te (and dog biscuits).


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Jax's Mom said:


> I often see dogs at the park whose owners can get mad and yell loud enough for their dogs to know they mean business and no matter what is happening, they should stop what they're doing right then. I'd like to be able to do that but unfortunately my dogs know I'm full of sh1te (and dog biscuits).


I'd much rather my dog stop what they are doing and come to me because I am the greatest thing on earth and coming to me when I call is a GOOD thing and not because they are afraid they will be beat if they don't.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I agree with what Chris said. 

Roughness also depends on the dog and what you're asking out of them. Sometimes use it sometimes not. I also think "roughness" can be used to make the dog a little more intense and drivey and get better results. Not in a "correction" sense but to get them revved up. if I think Elsa is being a little lazy I'll "push" her (that's not really the right word), be loud, clap my hands, kind of get in her face...it's not meant as a correction, per say, but to get her attention on me and some more jazz in her step. Some dogs might not be able to handle it and some people might think I'm being abusive or manhandling her, but it has a positive affect when I need it. She can be a hard dog and it's almost like playing and engaging her.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I don't think you can roll it all into a neat nut shell. Each dog is different and requires modification with your training meathods. 

Example: I am in the barn with Hondo. All the horses are in their stalls. Hondo decides to greet one as she had her head hanging over the stall door. I was standing there next to the horse's head. The sneaky snot suddenly lunged at the horse to catch it on it's nose - but I caught him before he reached her. It was a matter of split second, quick as a wink, all I could do at the time was shove him backwards. He was mid lunge so he lost his footing, rolled on to his back, flipped over and left the barn. Now, he won't go near the stall doors when the horses are in them. He'll go into the barn, walk through with out a problem. But he won't approach the stalls. Hondo is a year old - that was the first time I ever used my hands against him in punishment.


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

My two shepherds are different with Victor he is every head strong so he needs me to more firmer with him but on the other hand Jamie is very sensitive to your tone. If she needs to be corrected a simple NO works for her and if need be a BAD puppy command. That is all I need with her. I have to be positive and watch my tone with her. There are times I have had to be firmer or rougher with a command with Victor and push his head away because he likes to get mouthy with min pin or puppy. It all depends on the dog. They are all different. I never rub noses in pee or pop on nose. That sort of correcting is not necessary with this breed and IMO does not work.


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## clearcreekranch (Mar 18, 2010)

Lilie said:


> I don't think you can roll it all into a neat nut shell. Each dog is different and requires modification with your training meathods.
> 
> Example: I am in the barn with Hondo. All the horses are in their stalls. Hondo decides to greet one as she had her head hanging over the stall door. I was standing there next to the horse's head. The sneaky snot suddenly lunged at the horse to catch it on it's nose - but I caught him before he reached her. It was a matter of split second, quick as a wink, all I could do at the time was shove him backwards. He was mid lunge so he lost his footing, rolled on to his back, flipped over and left the barn. Now, he won't go near the stall doors when the horses are in them. He'll go into the barn, walk through with out a problem. But he won't approach the stalls. Hondo is a year old - that was the first time I ever used my hands against him in punishment.


 I would have done the same thing in that situation. I don't think that you can call that anything more than a correction that was absolutely necessary under the circumstances.


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## mssandslinger (Sep 21, 2010)

i agree its with each dog. My dogs do very well with positive praise. at dog parks i can call them once and they come running happy to see me. and their leave its are amazing, i can tell my lab to stay and she wont move from wherever i give the command. they also know my tone when i am serious, i have an emergency call that not matter is going on they run to me at full speed. But as i said it works for my dogs in my opinion. but most dogs react differently.


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

We have a new Rescue GSD-about 21 months old. We use a leash pop as she learns basic obedience, but that is the only "adverse" training. We mainly use positive reinforcement & food treats.

It was a PAID TRAINER that rough-handled her: yanked her to a 'down' from a 'stand' - with a PRONG collar! Trainer is lucky I didn't belt her one. Instead, we took her home.

But I do think the positive reinforcement is the newest yuppy thing around. Kind of like a "time-out" for kids, instead of the spankings I got!:laugh:

Becky


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

I don't think anyone can say it better than Chris. The question is poorly worded. Roughness can be of varying degrees, from gentle tug on the leash to an alpha roll. I would do one, but not the other.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

:thumbup: Chris


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## CaliBoy (Jun 22, 2010)

I also agree with Chris. Dogs should not be slapped, kicked, or struck in any way. That does not translate in their minds to something that is helpful for them. They might fear you but why have an animal that is afraid of you?

Jerking on a leash, grabbing the fur to squeeze on it, growling at it, even pushing down on it gently, can be effective with certain dogs at the right moment. The idea is to communicate that you are in charge and you expect the dog to heed your commands. Most of the time, when you patiently work with a dog and show clearly what action should follow what command, the dog will respond because of a desire to please you. Heaping positive praise and or rewards will increase that desire to please you as well.

Trust has to be at the base of our relationship. If the dog experiences that you are mistreating it and do not care for the dog's best interest, you are going to lose the dog's trust. Most of all, I like to tell people that God made these creatures sweet and innocent. It is simply wrong to inflict unnecessary pain and disregard upon a defenseless creature.


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## Deuce (Oct 14, 2010)

I believe the dog needs to be taught right from wrong but there's a suitable way of doing it


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Olivers mama said:


> But I do think the positive reinforcement is the newest yuppy thing around.


Actually, it's not. It's been around for a while, my first introduction to it was 10 years ago, and it wasn't brand new at the time. It's certainly not a fad either. Do some reading about operant conditioning, a term coined by B.F. Skinner based on his research at Harvard in the 60's/early 70's, which uses both punishment and rewards.

I agree that the poll is poorly worded, which makes it difficult to answer.


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## GSD Fan (Sep 20, 2010)

I'm sorry I worded it poorly.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

No need to be sorry.  Maybe Chris, (as an admin), can edit the poll and thread title for you.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

The poll question, (like so many very expertly designed political poll questions by the way) is inherently biased.

The semantics of the question are also biasing. not many folks would "punish" their dog but a lot more would "correct" them appropriately.

Some fanatical people even would include a harsh "No" or similar verbal as "Punishment".

The key as many have said is to suit the "training approach to the individual dog and what you are trying to teach. A serious lunge at a child would be dealt with in my case anyway, a LOT differently than the dog not sitting when told.

And my current very hard headed 3 yo male GSD would certainly receive a different approach than an earlier very soft submissive female GSD that we used to own.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

Oh, well then...correction is appropriate when the dog KNOWS what it's supposed to be doing but doesn't do it. And by correction I mean a verbal cue or tug on the leash, something to 'encourage' the correct response


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

I am "for" corrections when appropriate, but "against" roughness and "punishment."

A correction is not roughness or punishment - it is simply a correction. This poll is somewhat skewed. If the question was trying to understand if people believe in corrections or positive only reinforcement, my answer would have been "corrections when necessary" as would many others. But as the poll indicates abuse vs no abuse, most are gonig to say thay are against rough training and punishment which is IMHO abuse.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> No need to be sorry.  Maybe Chris, (as an admin), can edit the poll and thread title for you.


Best thing would be just to start a new poll with what you want. 

If you want, and I'm still on line, once a NEW poll is up I can close this one and direct people to the new one.....


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think that positive reinforcement works, even in a garage full of toxic stuff. (one does not leave the dog to his own devises in a garage full of toxic stuff, but if I were walking through and saw spilled antifreeze, I could call my mostly positive reinforcement trained dog(s), or say leave it, and call, and they would leave it and come. 

Smacking them, rubbing their nose in it, jerking them around -- if that was what training I had provided, and there was no leash on the dog, I would not trust that training at all in that situation.

I do not think dogs really think it the midst of their blissful moments, "the boss lady will KILL me if I do this." If you use harsh methods, and call the dog in panic (out of the road) the dog might scrunch a little for "being caught" but really he is just a bit scared, and he is coming because he knows he must, but I would much rather call the dog and have the dog associate good things happening, Suzie is calling. 

As much as I like the idea of positive reinforcement and use it as much as possible with puppies, I think that any training method has to be right for the dog AND the person to be effective. Do I use corrections? Normally just changing the tone of my voice works great. Body language is big too. Standing straighter and giving the evil eye...


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## GSD Fan (Sep 20, 2010)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Best thing would be just to start a new poll with what you want.
> 
> If you want, and I'm still on line, once a NEW poll is up I can close this one and direct people to the new one.....


http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/take-poll/144830-against-using-physical-punishment-dogs.html

I hope the question is better and more clear now.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Wording changed for clarification so a NEW poll is started.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/take-poll/144830-against-using-physical-punishment-dogs.html


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