# **** dumbbell work!!



## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

Hey everyone,

Those who have seen my posts before, know that this is my first dog and as far as Schutzhund or dog training in general goes (reading dogs, timing, etc) I still have a long ways to go...

With that said, I would really appreciate some advice on dumbbell work.

We've done the dowel work with the hold and it was very solid (we used Ivan Balabanov's approach)

Now I got a dumbbell (with jute covered crossbar) and I'm working on the retrieve and hold.

Here's where my problem is: my dog will let the dumbbell hang on his bottom teeth behind the canines with mouth slightly opened. He's not chewing or anything like that (which was important since he's always been very chewy).

What can I do when he doesn't hold the dumbbell correctly? I tried backing up and keeping his jaws closed on the dumbbell while praising (he knows to accept my handling) but it'll go slack again as soon as I take my hands off...

I know over the internet it's hard to help someone, but if it makes you more comfortable, you can tell me how you would approach this if your dog was holding the dumbbell this way (I know what I described above and chewing are too common problems)

Any advice will be appreciated


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

Have you checked his teeth/jaws? That would be my first thought.

Not much help though other than that sorry


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Ironically, Ivan's book was delivered to my house from amazon just yesterday lol. Brief summary of his approach? Sounds like the dog doesn't understand he must hold it firmly? Maybe this didn't transition to the dumbbell from the dowel? I've only just started the dumbbell work so I'm sure others have better advice

I use a PVC pipe, and have also poured lead into one side, and filled one with lead. If its off balance, they gotta hold harder... maybe use something not symmetrically weighted? Gotta imagine he can't hold it if its uneven.


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## mthurston0001 (Jul 12, 2009)

Provided all our teeth are healthy, sounds like maybe the concept of "hold" needs more work. Are you consistantly getting the calm firm hold on the dowel? Also why arent you using a regular dumbbell?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I have one dog that I completely backchained the retrieve with and was as successful as I had hoped to be. Tried that with another dog and he does exactly what the OP describes. The first dog is a bit of an "edgier" dog... sure how to say this without making it sound like he's nervy or has a bad temperament....but he takes things more seriously, even just doing obedience for food or toy rewards he takes seriously. He naturally clamps down and holds calm but very firm. My other dog is very content, higher drive and lower threshold, but doesn't take the work as seriously especially when worked with more positive/reward based methods. I tried a few gimmicks and didn't get the result I wanted. For example I would tap the ends of the dowel and if he was not holding firm, let him make the mistake of allowing the dowel to fall and then correcting him (quick pop under the chin, stick it back in, naturally clamps down harder, calm praise while holding). My new plan is to let the dog mature and do a forced retrieve. He can take a lot of pressure and things get more serious to him with physical pressure. I won't waste time trying to coax him to hold something firm when it's just not in his nature to take that type of training as seriously.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

mthurston0001 said:


> Provided all our teeth are healthy, sounds like maybe the concept of "hold" needs more work. Are you consistantly getting the calm firm hold on the dowel? Also why arent you using a regular dumbbell?


I was wondering the merit of going wood dowel to jute dumbbell, to wood dumbbell myself


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I think the hold needs more work. If done properly with the dowel, it should transfer to another object with nothing more than a few little reminders.

You also might want to remove the jute wrap from the dumbbell. They're just bare wood in trial, so he's got to get used to that anyway. But a bigger issue here is that I assume the dowel you used was plain wood or PVC, and not wrapped in jute. So to transfer the hold lesson, make the dumbbell feel the same as the dowel. While those jute wraps can make it more comfortable for a dog to hold a dumbbell, the hold really isn't about comfort. It's about discipline. And I've seen more than a few dogs get chewy with wrapped dumbbells because in their mouth it feels more like a toy (that they can get chewy with) than a hold object like they've experienced before.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I have one dog that I completely backchained the retrieve with and was as successful as I had hoped to be. Tried that with another dog and he does exactly what the OP describes. The first dog is a bit of an "edgier" dog... sure how to say this without making it sound like he's nervy or has a bad temperament....but he takes things more seriously, even just doing obedience for food or toy rewards he takes seriously. He naturally clamps down and holds calm but very firm. My other dog is very content, higher drive and lower threshold, but doesn't take the work as seriously especially when worked with more positive/reward based methods. I tried a few gimmicks and didn't get the result I wanted. For example I would tap the ends of the dowel and if he was not holding firm, let him make the mistake of allowing the dowel to fall and then correcting him (quick pop under the chin, stick it back in, naturally clamps down harder, calm praise while holding). My new plan is to let the dog mature and do a forced retrieve. He can take a lot of pressure and things get more serious to him with physical pressure. I won't waste time trying to coax him to hold something firm when it's just not in his nature to take that type of training as seriously.


I could have written that. Exact same thing, but the younger higher drive, lower threshold dog is my female.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

Liesje said:


> I have one dog that I completely backchained the retrieve with and was as successful as I had hoped to be. Tried that with another dog and he does exactly what the OP describes. The first dog is a bit of an "edgier" dog... sure how to say this without making it sound like he's nervy or has a bad temperament....but he takes things more seriously, even just doing obedience for food or toy rewards he takes seriously. He naturally clamps down and holds calm but very firm. My other dog is very content, higher drive and lower threshold, but doesn't take the work as seriously especially when worked with more positive/reward based methods. I tried a few gimmicks and didn't get the result I wanted. *For example I would tap the ends of the dowel and if he was not holding firm, let him make the mistake of allowing the dowel to fall and then correcting him (quick pop under the chin, stick it back in, naturally clamps down harder, calm praise while holding).* My new plan is to let the dog mature and do a forced retrieve. He can take a lot of pressure and things get more serious to him with physical pressure. I won't waste time trying to coax him to hold something firm when it's just not in his nature to take that type of training as seriously.


FYI, your second dog sounds just like mine...

very drivey, content, happy to work - loves all three phases. With that said, he just doesn't take things seriously sometimes.

Another thing, that bolded section is what I've done with him with the dowel work.

I'll be happy to hear what you've done (if anything, I noticed you are going to wait for a bit before doing forced retrieve with him) to work on his hold and retrieve...


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

Chris Wild said:


> I think the hold needs more work. If done properly with the dowel, it should transfer to another object with nothing more than a few little reminders.
> 
> You also might want to remove the jute wrap from the dumbbell. They're just bare wood in trial, so he's got to get used to that anyway. But a bigger issue here is that I assume the dowel you used was plain wood or PVC, and not wrapped in jute. So to transfer the hold lesson, make the dumbbell feel the same as the dowel. While those jute wraps can make it more comfortable for a dog to hold a dumbbell, the hold really isn't about comfort. It's about discipline. And I've seen more than a few dogs get chewy with wrapped dumbbells because in their mouth it feels more like a toy (that they can get chewy with) than a hold object like they've experienced before.


Ok, I can go back to dowel work as a reminder and if he's holding good I'll try to remove the jute cover from the dumbbell.

As far as the merit or reason for choosing a jute covered dumbbell, I wish I could answer - it's more of a case of a novice following the trainer's suggestion blindly without asking why


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

ayoitzrimz said:


> Ok, I can go back to dowel work as a reminder and if he's holding good I'll try to remove the jute cover from the dumbbell.
> 
> As far as the merit or reason for choosing a jute covered dumbbell, I wish I could answer - it's more of a case of a novice following the trainer's suggestion blindly without asking why


Dogs don't generalize well, and that dumbbell with jute is quite different from the dowel. He may not understand. If the hold on the dowel really is solid Try the dowel in different training locations. Maybe try several dowel sizes, weights, material (PVC, wood, anything smooth and hard) to aid in him getting the exercise is not attached to the dowel?


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

ayoitzrimz said:


> Here's where my problem is: my dog will let the dumbbell hang on his bottom teeth behind the canines with mouth slightly opened. He's not chewing or anything like that (which was important since he's always been very chewy).


I have just started dumbbell work and my dog is doing the same thing. Let me know what works for you.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

ayoitzrimz said:


> I'll be happy to hear what you've done (if anything, I noticed you are going to wait for a bit before doing forced retrieve with him) to work on his hold and retrieve...


Right now, nothing. Dog just turned 1. Right now we're just working tracking and obedience for the BH in the spring, we're also taking a break from protection as he hasn't developed real defense or aggression yet. As he matures and learns other exercises there will be more pressure in his work and we will try the hold again later. If the problem persists we will do a forced retrieve. I don't like to have to "fix" things or move from one method to the next - I prefer either a backchained, freeshaped retrieve or a forced retrieve. I have nothing against properly executed forced retrieves, I just found the other method worked very well with my other dog. I'm also waiting because I've never done a forced retrieve so I'll have to get the right help.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I start with a wooden dowel, but go to PVC before I introduce the dumbbell (and even then I use a plastic DB at first). I like the PVC because it is slippery and can be easily removed from the dog's mouth if he doesn't hold tight. When that happens the dog is corected. 

As a note, I do not do this work in the front position. I don't want the front to be a place where unpleasant things happen especially in the learning phases. I will do this at the side, on a bench or a back tie.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

lhczth said:


> I start with a wooden dowel, but go to PVC before I introduce the dumbbell (and even then I use a plastic DB at first). I like the PVC because it is slippery and can be easily removed from the dog's mouth if he doesn't hold tight. When that happens the dog is corected.
> 
> As a note, I do not do this work in the front position. I don't want the front to be a place where unpleasant things happen especially in the learning phases. I will do this at the side, on a bench or a back tie.


I do it seated in a folding camping chair with two drink holders to hold treats. Did you go from wood to PVC, because you thought of PVC after starting, or for some other reason? I just started with pvc b/c of how easy it is to slip out. PVC with several ounces of lead in one end makes for a very difficult to hold object


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Nope. I have always started with wood and then gone to PVC. Well, not always. My first dogs back in the early 80's we started with rolled up paper towel and then went to the dumbbell. 

I do a forced retrieve (after starting with a shaped retrieve) so I want the dogs to have an understanding of how to remove the pressure on a large wood dowel before I go to the much harder to hold PVC (it is also smaller in diameter). I work the dogs on a bench/table to get them at my level. Far easier on my back.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

lhczth said:


> Nope. I have always started with wood and then gone to PVC. Well, not always. My first dogs back in the early 80's we started with rolled up paper towel and then went to the dumbbell.
> 
> I do a forced retrieve (after starting with a shaped retrieve) so I want the dogs to have an understanding of how to remove the pressure on a large wood dowel before I go to the much harder to hold PVC (it is also smaller in diameter). I work the dogs on a bench/table to get them at my level. Far easier on my back.


Rolled up paper towel? How does that not turn to a soppy mess?

Try leaning back in a chair, or sitting on the sofa! Its even better 

Hear you on the back pain, I crushed several vertebrae a few years ago on a motocross jump gone wrong.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

It was taped with masking tape. This was the 80's. LOL 

As I said, I don't like putting pressure on the dog in the front position while in the teaching phase and even sitting in a chair is still the front.

Mine is from riding horses, being abused by horses and cattle and farming. Also from being over weight for so many years. :O


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

lhczth said:


> It was taped with masking tape. This was the 80's. LOL
> 
> As I said, I don't like putting pressure on the dog in the front position while in the teaching phase and even sitting in a chair is still the front.
> 
> Mine is from riding horses, being abused by horses and cattle and farming. Also from being over weight for so many years. :O


If you're breaking out riding horses from abused by horses, what constitutes abuse? lol being thrown?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Yes, thrown would be one way. Fall off while jumping is another. Driving accidents another.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

lhczth said:


> Yes, thrown would be one way. Fall off while jumping is another. Driving accidents another.


Understand the first two.. what is a driving accident in the context of horseback riding?

I once bloodied by lip when a horse slammed on the brakes at a jump and I ate his mane. Took horse back riding in college... gotta love liberal arts in the south


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Ayo,
Does your dog have "hold" on verbal cue?


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

I trained a 'hold" seperate from the retrieve and then worked it into the sequence. It worked for us. I did not do force retrieve although sometimes I wonder if his dumbbells would look better if they were done that way. He was trained dumbells using play and they still look like play compared to some others. 

I always recommend taking a step back and starting from the beginning, sometimes it gives us handlers just enough info to fix the problem!


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I like to add the correction to a shaped retrieve. The pressure really makes it powerful in performance.


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

I never thought of adding correction, not sure why, Maybe I should talk to my TD about that!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

hunterisgreat said:


> Understand the first two.. what is a driving accident in the context of horseback riding?


Totally off topic, but I have had 3 accidents while driving horses.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

To take it further off topic since it sounds like Hunter might not know what the term driving is in relation to horses, it is horse in harness, driver in cart/wagon behind. Not driving a vehicle with horses inside or pulled by a trailer.


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## ed1911 (Jan 19, 2011)

Dumbells suck!!! I wish we could use tennis balls.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

For the retrieve, when a puppy I will do some shaped retrieving with food and clicker. Just enough to build some positive associations with the exercise. I've tried fully shaped retrieves a couple of times, but abandoned those because I was unable to get a firm hold or communicate to the dog what a firm hold was and that it was desired. Calm, yes. Firm, no. So while I still do some shaping with dogs when they are young, I wait to start the formal retrieve until the dog is older and ready to take some pressure.

Then I do somewhat of a forced hold. Not of the toe pinch, ear pinch, e-collar type variety but more similar to what is shown in the Balabanov and Ellis videos. It's not harsh, but it is not optional either. And I do use the under the chin thump correction for dropping or mouthing. That sort of correction serves not only to get the message across that those behaviors are unacceptable, but it will also lead to the dog tightening up the jaw muscles helping create a firmer hold due to that.

I start with a wood dowel, move onto a pvc dowel, then to a couple different objects including plastic dumbbells, then to the wood dumbbell. Reason for the different objects is so that the dog has a more global understanding of the "hold" before moving onto the trial dumbbell.

Like Lisa, I never, ever work the pressure part of hold training in the front position. Doesn't matter if I'm sitting or standing, I'm always off to the side (and not in heel position either). Once the hold training has progressed and the dog understands and is comfortable with it, then I'll work more in front, often having the dog come front from a very short distance with the dumbbell already in his mouth. But the early stages that are far less fun for the dog I don't want associated with any other exercise or position.

Separately from doing the forced hold I also build basic retrieving skills in play, rewarding the dog coming straight back to me and occasionally having the dog come into a front with the toy. Holding a toy calmly in front with my hand under the chin and not letting go until I say so is something I always do on occasion when playing. And when playing fetch I'll often use a barrier to throw the object up against so the dog is, through play, conditioned to do a proper pick up without running past the object or trying to pick it up on the run. The dog being somewhat familiar with some of those things in play does (I believe anyway) help lay a bit of a foundation in some of the other aspects of retrieving for me to build on later.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Back on topic. I am not familiar with the way Ivan teaches this. I always teach the hold with pressure. If the dog holds the dumbell loosely then just knock the dumbell from his mouth and make pressure for it. I don't know how long you have been working on this but this is something that is usually finished by day 2, maybe 3.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I was really lucky that I was able to mark my dog clamping down on the dowel. Since we got that biting down isolated, I could put it on cue. With "hold" he will clamp harder. When he really wants reward he holds. I am still adding pressure to it. I use collar pressure that turns off when DB is achieved. I taught the dog what thevpressure meant and how to turn it off. I didn 't just intervene with a correction. It is a taught scenario that the dog understands.


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