# Thresholds and aggression -- long



## Kaiser2012 (Mar 12, 2012)

I think I may have noticed something with Kaiser and I wanted to run it by you more knowledgeable types 

Kaiser will get all huffy puffy on our walks too, but we rarely encounter dogs that way (only occasionally). Most of this behavior occurs at the dog park on the RARE occasion that other people show up. As some of you know, the dog park I go to is not heavily used and the people who do show up don't do so on any sort of schedule (at least not during the winter months). So, I'll use his behavior at the park for my following post.

It seems, in my opinion, that Kaiser initially reacts to a dog (not ALL dogs, but quite a few) in two different ways:

Way 1 (most dogs): Growling and/or huffing and puffing then barking following by throwing out his chest (who's the baddest dog now kind of attitude), raised hackles, charging the fence or pulling to the end of the leash.

Way 2 (only a few dogs): Apparent serious attempt to "get into it" with the dog. Much more aggressive in his behavior. Starts with the above but very quickly escalates to almost an utter hatred for the other dog.

So, how I deal with the first scenario is this: If we are going TO the park and there are already dogs there, we do obedience up to the gate and he MUST show indifference to the other dogs (or at least a diminished level) before he is allowed in. If we are already in the park and a dog comes up to it, I try to distract Kaiser with the ball, frisbee, or whatever I have to get his attention away from the dog. 

With this, it seems I am able to get Kaiser back under the threshold for reactivity. Once he realizes the new dog isn't going to challenge him, steal me or Dakota away, or whatever his reasoning was to at all big and bad to begin with, he is absolutely cool with playing. 

For the second situation, I literally have to drag Kaiser away from the other dog and put him in time out before he calms down. Nothing else I do, aside from putting hands on him, will break him out of his aroused state. In other words, that threshold has been completely breached and he is so worked up that nothing else I say or do will snap him out of it. 

My first question is this: What has spurred his reaction with some dogs and not others? (It used to just be dominant, aggressive males...now he reacts to most dogs)

Second question: What KIND of aggression am I dealing with? Two different kinds? It seems like the most prevalent form (scenario one) is fast acting but goes away once he gets calmed down. He is able to then play with that same dog he initially reacted to. The second scenario is a no holds barred reaction and he will only act sensible after quite a bit of time has passed and if I don't allow him back near the other dog. For example, a white dog attacked him a few weeks ago because he was "protecting his owner" (so claims the owner). Kaiser saw this same dog come to the park a few days ago and absolutely blew a gasket when they came to the fence. They went to the adjoining park (for small dogs, even though the dog wasnt small) and Kaiser FINALLY settled down (after a time out) after about 10 minutes of watching the other dog play fetch. I did do some leash work when they left, walking Kaiser by the dog hoping to desensitize him (and working on "leave it")...which worked somewhat (he still growled) but I think he was so tired from playing that his initial knee-jerk reaction was muted.

Third question: How do I deal with this and how do I learn more about his thresholds?

Gosh that was long and probably a bit scatter-brained. Please let me know if I need to clarify anything. Thanks!


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Kaiser2012 said:


> For the second situation, I literally have to drag Kaiser away from the other dog and put him in time out before he calms down. Nothing else I do, aside from putting hands on him, will break him out of his aroused state. In other words, that threshold has been completely breached and he is so worked up that nothing else I say or do will snap him out of it.


The key here is to get his focus back on your BEFORE he passes that threshold. You said that Way 2 starts the same as Way 1 but gets worse. Your goal should be to not let the dog get even halfway into Way 1.



> My first question is this: What has spurred his reaction with some dogs and not others? (It used to just be dominant, aggressive males...now he reacts to most dogs)


It could be many things. Sometimes it a look the dogs give him or a slight raise of the tail or some other extremely subtle body signal that we humans just can't see or understand.

It might also be that he is developing a 'bark first, ask questions later' attitude.

I am dealing with this with Mauser. He was attacked at dog training awhile back and ever since he decided that all dogs are out to get him and he should attack first - even if they aren't showing any signs (he was ambush attacked).

I would start by NOT taking him places where there are unleashed dogs that you do not 110% trust to not get into it with him.

The more times that happens the worse he will get.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> It might also be that he is developing a 'bark first, ask questions later' attitude.


I see this with a lot of foster dogs who are actually not bad at all with other dogs, but the "intros" go amazingly horrible. 
They want to get the 1st bite in. I think it happens because they had a bad experience in the past, quite possibly, like Lauri's dog, got attacked before so they want to make sure they're in control of the situation from the git-go.


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## Kaiser2012 (Mar 12, 2012)

The thing is, he is great otherwise. There are two boston terriers across from where we live that he ADORES (the male, especially). The dog park is the only fenced area where Kaiser can get his exercise and be off-leash. Its an absolute necessity for me, since I can walk him for hours (theoretically) and he won't tire. Its just not the same as running and playing. Same thing with training...it will temporarily wear him out (for like 30 minutes, MAYBE an hour) but the only way to maintain my sanity (and his) is to take him to that park to run around. And because there are *usually* no people there (unless we specifically set up a play date), we generally don't have a problem. When people arrive, he only reacts sometimes. Its frustrating for me because I don't always have the ability to leave and them bring him back later. 

I do my best to "snap him out" of his elevated emotional state, but when I say it can go from scenario one to scenario two very quickly, its VERY quickly. As in, He might be one puffed chested growly bark out before he has decided that the dog is his mortal enemy. I always try to distract him first if I see the people and new dogs coming. I don't just wait to see what happens. I think its more dependent on the particular dog he is reacting to as far as if my actions will "get through" to him or not. Does that make sense?

I'm trying so hard to learn about his behavior, but I'm having trouble with this one


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## Kaiser2012 (Mar 12, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> I see this with a lot of foster dogs who are actually not bad at all with other dogs, but the "intros" go amazingly horrible.
> They want to get the 1st bite in. I think it happens because they had a bad experience in the past, quite possibly, like Lauri's dog, got attacked before so they want to make sure they're in control of the situation from the git-go.


He has been attacked in the past a few times, so while he never started something he WOULD always finish it (or try) if another dog came at him. His reactivity to most dogs now though is a new thing...so this does make sense.

Maybe paired with his still very juvenile mindset? (he's only 1 year old)


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Yes, as he matures and get a bit of confidence, he'll start being more reactive.
This is one reason dog parks are not a great place to do socializing, unfortunately. 
Even one attack can leave a dog this way.


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## Kaiser2012 (Mar 12, 2012)

Ugh this stinks. So with age and confidence comes...more aggression/reactivity (are those words interchangeable?)? I mean I can certainly remove him if someone else comes, which would stink but I will do it if I have to. How will I "fix" the problem though?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I agree with Lauri - who knows why he reacts to some dogs and not others? There may be very subtle signals given out by the other dog that you don't even see, but Kaiser is reading them loud and clear. In any case, it's not doing him any good to be continually exposed to those kinds of situations. It's not going to make his reactivity any better, and will likely make it worse.

Cassidy was highly leash reactive, but fine with most other dogs off leash. She was free to greet or not, and to move away if she wanted to, which probably gave her confidence. For the few that she had an issue with she would be casually sniffing the other dog, and then instead of calmly moving on, they'd suddenly be snarking at each other. It happened so fast we never saw it coming, and we had no idea why that particular dog and not any of the dozens of other dogs she had been perfectly fine with. Since this was a small percentage of dogs and she clearly loved going to the park to chase balls and swim (we have a very tiny yard), we continued doing so, but there was never any physical harm done and we also had a bulletproof way to get her back - all we had to do was say "Cassidy, ball!" and bounce it off the ground and she'd immediately break off and get the ball. I would be uncomfortable with a dog at the park that I had to physically drag away from other dogs, it's really not fair to the other dogs and owners there. 

Lauri is absolutely right about keeping him BELOW threshold - getting a dog back after they're already over aroused can be difficult, so make sure you are far enough away from his triggers that you can get him to redirect to you before he blows in a full reaction. Learn to recognize the subtle signs that he's nearing that point - he may go very still, his ears may go forward, his facial muscles may be tense, and _that's_ the point where you immediately do whatever you need to do to get him back, including increasing distance from the trigger. (ETA: Not after even a single "one puffed chested growly bark".)

Honestly, this is not a dog I'd be taking to a dog park. Maybe to work with him at a distance, outside the fence, but not inside off leash. Every time he goes over threshold he's being allowed to practice bad behavior, which will inhibit your efforts to fix this. If you can work with him around other dogs below threshold you can gradually raise that threshold over time.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> It might also be that he is developing a 'bark first, ask questions later' attitude.


Exactly, and that's why it's counterproductive to continue putting him in that situation.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Kaiser2012 said:


> How will I "fix" the problem though?


I don't know if this will fix his problem but here's my suggestion.

Doe she have a favorite toy - one that he would walk through fire for? Or a favorite treat? You need to find something that he loves - and I mean *LOVES*!

Take that thing with to the park. You'll need to be VERY vigilant so you know exactly when another dog is approaching. Let him notice the other dog than INSTANTLY whip out that favorite thing and totally engage him with it.

What you want to teach him is that when he's at the park and another dog approaches, his FAVORITE thing in the whole world appears - from YOU.

The goal is to have him see a dog approaching the park gate and then instantly look to you for his thing.

Does that make sense?


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## Kaiser2012 (Mar 12, 2012)

I have worked with him on leash, and it eventually brings him back down to a level where he is more sensible, but he will still growl if the dog comes too close. Its like its enough to remind him to not explode but not quite enough to keep him from growling. The dog that attacked him that i had to drag Kaiser off of, I actually asked that owner if he would mind if I leashed Kaiser (with the prong) and did some work with him walking by his dog. He was totally ok with that. After about 6 or 8 passes Kaiser got the picture that he wasn't allowed to growl or lunge or do any of those things. He didn't LIKE it, but he gave me enough to where I felt a little better about his behavior. I tried to distract him and corrected as needed during the passes. He DOES know leave it but that falls on deaf ears if his emotions get too elevated. Same with the ball or frisbee (his favorite thing in the world).


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## Kaiser2012 (Mar 12, 2012)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> I don't know if this will fix his problem but here's my suggestion.
> 
> Doe she have a favorite toy - one that he would walk through fire for? Or a favorite treat? You need to find something that he loves - and I mean *LOVES*!
> 
> ...



Yes, this does make sense...however the one thing he LOVES, he also resource guards. Thats the frisbee. I only take it out when its just him and Dakota (or if there are dogs he's fine with that aren't frisbee oriented). If there's another frisbee dog, I have to hide it or remove Kaiser.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Kaiser2012 said:


> It seems, in my opinion, that Kaiser initially reacts to a dog (not ALL dogs, but quite a few) in two different ways:
> 
> Way 1 (most dogs): Growling and/or huffing and puffing then barking following by throwing out his chest (who's the baddest dog now kind of attitude), raised hackles, charging the fence or pulling to the end of the leash.


For me, this by itself is already too much, and it would not be acceptable for my dog/s to act that way at the park. He's pretty much daring the other dog to react to _him_, and it may be that the dogs that he advances to stage 2 with are the ones that take his bait, and the ones where he doesn't go to stage 2 with, don't. I wouldn't only be concerned with stage 2, I'd be very concerned with stage 1 as well, and making sure that it never happens again.

Even something as simple as eye contact for more than few seconds can be a trigger, and staring definitely is. Both Keefer & Halo will react on leash walks if another dog is either giving them the stink eye, or is clearly not well controlled and barking or lunging towards them. With dogs that are either neutral or friendly they don't care, and it's easy for me to prevent reactions, so the demeanor of the other dog is clearly very much a factor. 

Cassidy's staring threshold was about 3 seconds, (this was pointed out to us by the trainer in her Difficult Dog class for reactive dogs), so 4 or 5 seconds of eye contact would be enough to send her over the edge. When I'm walking Halo or Keef I make sure that THEY don't stare at other dogs as they approach us, because it can set up a chain reaction (literally!) where my dogs stare at the other dog who starts to bark and lunge, and they my dog will bark and lunge because the other dog is barking and lunging at them. Oy! 

Do you have access to a class for reactive dogs? I think it would be very beneficial to be able to work on this with a professional rather than on your own.


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## Kaiser2012 (Mar 12, 2012)

We don't have any classes like that around here.  My trainer (who is great, at least for what we've been doing) basically wants to set Kaiser up to where she will bring a dog by him then correct him (violent correction with the prong collar) when he starts acting up. I'm not sure how I feel about this though and I wonder if there are any other options?


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Kaiser2012 said:


> My trainer (who is great, at least for what we've been doing) basically wants to set Kaiser up to where she will bring a dog by him then correct him (violent correction with the prong collar) when he starts acting up. I'm not sure how I feel about this though and I wonder if there are any other options?


Been there, done that, got a really bad bite in the leg from the dog I corrected (foster dog).

Using aggression on an aggressive dog can work - but it can also backfire VERY seriously - causing the dog to become MORE aggressive.

I would look for a different trainer for this problem.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

Kaiser2012 said:


> We don't have any classes like that around here.  My trainer (who is great, at least for what we've been doing) basically wants to set Kaiser up to where she will bring a dog by him then correct him (violent correction with the prong collar) when he starts acting up. I'm not sure how I feel about this though and I wonder if there are any other options?


In this type of set up, you put the dog on a stay and do a Fear of God correction at the very first inkling that he's even THINKING about reacting. What it can accomplish is teaching the dog that he should stay, and mind his own business. It can teach a dog to behave in the presence of other dogs. From there you can teach a dog that good things will come from you, and that you will keep him "safe" from this other dog, that you are the one in charge of the situation.

But what it will NOT do is make your dog like other dogs, or get you to a point where your dog can be out "free" around other dogs. If your dog's problems are fear-based, it could (probably would) make him MORE afraid. 

With Mike, we had to be satisfied with getting him to a point where he didn't react to a dog's presence, even if that dog was sitting 1 foot away. He can run with a pack of trained dogs if the handlers are paying attention and keep their dogs from challenging him. He doesn't start trouble. But that's as far as we got....you can't make a truly dog aggressive dog like other dogs. So it's very important to know what you have at the end of your leash!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I will correct Keefer with a prong when he's just being a butthead, but his reactivity has nothing to do with fear. He's extremely social off leash, and gets frustrated when he can't go greet every dog he sees. He'll react at a distance to a dog that he's as friendly as can be with up close. He's the exact opposite of a lot of dogs that are fine with another dog over there somewhere, but not right in their face. He's actually better with dogs in his face - weird, I know! 

It was quite a while before I was comfortable with doing that with Keef because I didn't want to make things worse, and I was pretty sure it wasn't fear based, but I worked with a very experienced trainer (breeds and trains working Belgian Malinois and has numerous GSD clients, many for reactivity) who confirmed that for me before even trying it. He just gets really, really excited and needs to be told to knock it off. For him, there's been absolutely no blowback from this method but I would NOT have used it with Cassidy, and I wouldn't use it with Kaiser either. 

What would be better is to set up controlled situations with neutral dogs, at a distance that he can still think and learn, because once he goes over threshold learning stops.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> Been there, done that, got a really bad bite in the leg from the dog I corrected (foster dog).


OOOOH yeah. With some dogs I can see that EASILY happening. Thinking of some dogs of the belgian breeds I know....

I had a groenendael re-direct on me, and all I was doing was holding the leash while the owner went to the ladies room! I was running students thru a rally course, sitting in a chair holding the leash and watching the team on the course. Dog started hard staring and growling at another dog so I stood up (I could feel those little warning hairs on the back of my neck), and the dog went nuts. This is a dog that normally LOVES me, but his brain was completely gone and I ended up with several bites on my arm. A "very helpful" club member who had just completed an animal control behavior course stood by watching and afterward she said helpfully "That was re-directed aggression, he redirected on you!" No $&#@ Sherlock! She was so "proud" that she could name what she saw, but she sure kept her distance while it was happening!

I have since seen this dog's owner give a fairly minor leash correction for the dog staring at or growling at another dog, and he goes up the leash at HER. (I have repeatedly told the owners to GET THAT PRONG OFF THE DOG, but noooo....) So yeah, ya gotta be very careful, and know what kind of dog is at the end of your leash.


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## lmuns349 (Mar 22, 2012)

I'm not an expert of any sorts, and I am a first time GSD owner, but my pup has had similar fear reaction to dogs lately. He's had a few dogs run up and get in his face, and he was also chased by a dog when he was younger (which is why I now keep him on-leash even though he is reliable when dogs aren't around). He gets pretty loud about other dogs, and last week he even pinned our new neighbor's dog because she came up and greeted me by jumping. He didn't hurt her, just pinned her down and held her until I pulled him off, but I'm sure she's going to have fear problems now too (sheesh). I was trying, unsuccessfully, to distract him and keep his attention on me in the presence of dogs. I was recommended a book by someone else on the forums and trying a game out of the book has made a HUGE difference in his fear reactivity. The book was Control Unleashed, and the game is Look At That (LAT). I don't know if it will work for your dog, but it's working for mine  I posted earlier about him being able to sit quietly in a pet store today. I hope you can find something that works!


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Kaiser2012 (Mar 12, 2012)

I am fairly certain this is not fear-aggression. Nothing he is doing (or the other dogs are doing) makes me even consider it. I'm no expert, but I think it has a lot to do with him trying to make sure the other dog understands their place. I've been thinking since I posted, and the more I do, the more I think it is a dominance thing. I realized that he HAS turned dominant (even when he wasn't before) and constantly does subtly dominant things even to dogs he has no problem with (head over their backs, for example). He has also ALWAYS reacted to dominant or aggressive dogs, dogs that blatantly started things, but this reaction to most any dog (even puppies) is a new thing. I also realized with further thought that he reacts more to bully breeds and labs. I don't know why this is though. Its also obvious to me that he prefers females, because once he rushes up to a dog (if I'm unable to get to him beforehand) and then realizes its a girl, he's all fine and dandy. Then again, there are some males he just adores (like the little boston terrier across the way who can literally steal a toy out of Kaiser's mouth with no problem). 

As far as the correction thing my trainer wants to do...I was concerned about it pissing him off even more (or even hurting him, if she's planning on yanking as hard as I have a feeling she will). And my goal IS for him to be a social boy, with acceptable behavior around other dogs. He really does LOVE playing...with the "right" dogs...and I hate to have to take that away from him. I just can't see taking Dakota to the park without him. In fact, she won't play with any other dogs unless Kaiser is with her. 

Oh, and as far as re-directed aggression...Kaiser bit me once from it. The minute his teeth hit skin he freaked out and looked at me like "oh crap, I'm sorry mom". That was when I had to pull him off of the white dog that went after him for going to say hi to his owner, so he was VERY hyped up to begin with. He didn't break skin, and he hasn't done it since. I'm glad that he seemed to realize he did something wrong, even though he was so worked up. I suppose I would prefer that over him being blinded by rage and not having a clue. Eh :-\

My goal, as I said before, is to definitely get to the root of this issue and get things figured out. My trainer is the best there is here, from the few that we have, and she knows the breed. She knows I'm not old school in my views toward corrections (I prefer positive training with minor corrections when required) so I suppose she wouldn't suggest such an extreme form of correction if she didn't think it would work. But again...Kaiser is not a hard dog. I don't want him to shut down. I don't want her to hurt him. I don't want him to redirect, or worse, get even MORE worked up after the correction.

Because I just had shoulder surgery I still have some time before I'm able to get back into training...so I have time to think this through. I'm just nervous about it. And I'm stressed because I've tried SO very hard to socialize him and set the foundation to be a great dog, and now he is acting like a complete butthead. Yea, he's a wonderful dog at home and an inspiration when we are out in public. As long as there aren't any problem dogs for him to key in on. Heck, a pit bull got kicked out of Bass Pro Shops a month ago for being HORRID when he saw Kaiser, and all Kaiser did was look at him, then redirect his attention to me because I asked him to (I was so proud!). I had people coming up to me all night telling me how amazing Kaiser was and how they were so impressed he wasnt like that other bad dog that got kicked out. 

Sigh...


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

Truly secure and confident dogs don't feel the need to put other dogs in their place. the other dogs KNOW. I had a dog who, at a glance, appeared to let my girls walk all over him....but if they went too far he'd shoot them a VERY subtle look and they'd both turn into puppies, apologizing. He was a very interesting dog, very comfortable in his own skin. To be honest he didn't really like most people outside our family, he just "tolerated" them. Did not seek or appreciate pats or affection from strangers. I did notice that some other dogs would target him and try to get after him....and he didn't really care! We called him "The Lion King" and that's pretty much how he saw himself.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Kaiser2012 said:


> I am fairly certain this is not fear-aggression. Nothing he is doing (or the other dogs are doing) makes me even consider it. I'm no expert, but I think it has a lot to do with him trying to make sure the other dog understands their place. I've been thinking since I posted, and the more I do, the more I think it is a dominance thing. I realized that he HAS turned dominant (even when he wasn't before) and constantly does subtly dominant things even to dogs he has no problem with (head over their backs, for example).


I don't think it's dominant behavior (as DunRingill has already addressed). I have what we think is a Finnish Lapphund mix... small herding breed with some very similiar behaviors to shepherds. He is very easily stimulated by other dogs and does similiar behaviors as what you posted. He will bite a dog if he gets close to them but it's not fear or dominance it's more like he is checking on HIS place and seeing what the other dog will allow him to get away with. 

We have had a lot of success working with him on a head collar (Infinity lead or Halti) and counter conditioning using space because he _wants_ to be near the other dogs so his correction is getting further away and reward is getting closer and some food. He can now walk next to another dog calmly and ignore them but he can't be still within striking distance of them or he will bite. He isn't biting to break skin either (he's done it to my Kaiser) and likes to tease my dogs when he walks by their crates.

We don't use physical corrections on him because he has and will redirect on people. It's actually how we found out he had issues with dogs. I was walking him out of the kennel he was in one day and as we passed a dog, he bit into my thigh. I have no doubts he would redirect with a correction since he will do it without one. Since our relationship has built, he won't dream of biting me. When he got into a fight with one of my dogs last week, he turned mouth open when I grabbed him and I simply said "don't even think about it" and he stopped immediately. 



DunRingill said:


> Truly secure and confident dogs don't feel the need to put other dogs in their place. the other dogs KNOW. I had a dog who, at a glance, appeared to let my girls walk all over him....but if they went too far he'd shoot them a VERY subtle look and they'd both turn into puppies, apologizing. He was a very interesting dog, very comfortable in his own skin. To be honest he didn't really like most people outside our family, he just "tolerated" them. Did not seek or appreciate pats or affection from strangers. I did notice that some other dogs would target him and try to get after him....and he didn't really care! We called him "The Lion King" and that's pretty much how he saw himself.


Completely agree with the above and feel very lucky that my Kaiser is a lot like this is so many ways. He lets the girls in my house think they run the show but will calmly let them know when they've gone too far. He has amazing communication skills with other dogs and knows how to put reactive dogs at ease and ignores rude dogs to let them know their behavior is inappropriate and if they push too far gives very appropriate corrections without using his mouth most of the time. Love it about him. He's a little more social with people though.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

gsdraven said:


> Completely agree with the above and feel very lucky that my Kaiser is a lot like this is so many ways. He lets the girls in my house think they run the show but will calmly let them know when they've gone too far. He has amazing communication skills with other dogs and knows how to put reactive dogs at ease and ignores rude dogs to let them know their behavior is inappropriate and if they push too far gives very appropriate corrections without using his mouth most of the time. Love it about him. He's a little more social with people though.


YES!!! That sounds like Logan, except Logan was only social with certain people. Watching him with other dogs was fascinating.....to all the world it looked like my girls were running the show, yet if they got too bratty all he did was stand JUST a tiny bit taller and squint his eyes a bit, and the 2 girls would start licking his chin and apologizing. It was very interesting to watch. And like Kaiser he ignored rude dogs, and reactive dogs seemed to like being near him. He was a really good-looking boy but not very good at schutzhund and just OK at competition obedience, tho I did learn a ton from him!


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## Kaiser2012 (Mar 12, 2012)

DunRingill said:


> Truly secure and confident dogs don't feel the need to put other dogs in their place. the other dogs KNOW. I had a dog who, at a glance, appeared to let my girls walk all over him....but if they went too far he'd shoot them a VERY subtle look and they'd both turn into puppies, apologizing. He was a very interesting dog, very comfortable in his own skin. To be honest he didn't really like most people outside our family, he just "tolerated" them. Did not seek or appreciate pats or affection from strangers. I did notice that some other dogs would target him and try to get after him....and he didn't really care! We called him "The Lion King" and that's pretty much how he saw himself.


and yet someone else commented that as his confidence grows, so will his aggression...

Kaiser is a VERY sociable dog with people, very goofy and affectionate, and is an absolute gem with some dogs. I think there is something else going on here, aside from the idea that he's not confident. For example, if he was acting out of insecurity or lack of confidence, then why would he do it only to some dogs and not all? Why was it ONLY with aggressive males at first, and now also some females (again, not all, in either scenario)?

I don't think it's dominant behavior (as DunRingill has already addressed). I have what we think is a Finnish Lapphund mix... small herding breed with some very similiar behaviors to shepherds. He is very easily stimulated by other dogs and does similiar behaviors as what you posted. He will bite a dog if he gets close to them but it's not fear or dominance it's more like he is checking on HIS place and seeing what the other dog will allow him to get away with. 

We have had a lot of success working with him on a head collar (Infinity lead or Halti) and counter conditioning using space because he _wants_ to be near the other dogs so his correction is getting further away and reward is getting closer and some food. He can now walk next to another dog calmly and ignore them but he can't be still within striking distance of them or he will bite. He isn't biting to break skin either (he's done it to my Kaiser) and likes to tease my dogs when he walks by their crates.

_We don't use physical corrections on him because he has and will redirect on people. It's actually how we found out he had issues with dogs. I was walking him out of the kennel he was in one day and as we passed a dog, he bit into my thigh. I have no doubts he would redirect with a correction since he will do it without one. Since our relationship has built, he won't dream of biting me. When he got into a fight with one of my dogs last week, he turned mouth open when I grabbed him and I simply said "don't even think about it" and he stopped immediately. 

Completely agree with the above and feel very lucky that my Kaiser is a lot like this is so many ways. He lets the girls in my house think they run the show but will calmly let them know when they've gone too far. He has amazing communication skills with other dogs and knows how to put reactive dogs at ease and ignores rude dogs to let them know their behavior is inappropriate and if they push too far gives very appropriate corrections without using his mouth most of the time. Love it about him. He's a little more social with people though. _

Also, ultimately Kaiser loves to play, but this isn't an issue with him reacting because he WANTS to get closer. Once he realizes the dogs are "ok" he settles down and is fine to play. The initial reaction (scenario one) is seems full of fluff...like a rooster strutting around showing everyone how "great" it is. Also, Kaiser does NOT ignore rude dogs like Dakota does. In fact, a rude dog with behavior such as humping or stealing toys out of his mouth, etc, will set him off...except for the boston terrier he loves.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> and yet someone else commented that as his confidence grows, so will his aggression...


That was me and confidence isn't the right choice of words but I lacked a better one at the time...what I mean is...he sees himself as being "big guy" now, not a "pushover puppy" and so he thinks he can take on the world. Not in a "good" sense, but just a "I think I can take them now!" sense.
Is there a better term for that...?? "Smarty pants" springs to mind


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## Kaiser2012 (Mar 12, 2012)

lmao I call him "mr smarty pants" all the time! That and "sassy pants"! haha 

Yes, it does make sense now though. And just from what I've seen I think that is definitely the best way to describe his behavior now! Like he needs to show everyone (or, well...most dogs, I guess) that he's come into his own.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

No physical corrections because you are afraid he will redirect on you?

Did I read your post right?


HHHMMMM!


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## Kaiser2012 (Mar 12, 2012)

codmaster said:


> No physical corrections because you are afraid he will redirect on you?
> 
> Did I read your post right?
> 
> ...


I do not think that you did. I'm referring to the very intense correction that my trainer wants to try to use on him (have me use on him). My worry is that if he is so worked up then he will just redirect to me, even through the pain.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Definitely catch and redirect before he reaches that point :thumbup:


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## Kaiser2012 (Mar 12, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> Definitely catch and redirect before he reaches that point :thumbup:



I promise, I try!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Kaiser2012 said:


> I do not think that you did. I'm referring to the very intense correction that my trainer wants to try to use on him (have me use on him). My worry is that if he is so worked up then he will just redirect to me, even through the pain.


*"I have no doubts he would redirect with a correction since he will do it without one."*

*Isn't this (above) a quote from an earlier post of yours?*

*Sounds like he will bite you with or without any correction?*

*Might as well at least try to correct him in that case, if he will "redirect" on you and your leg, for example.*

*And if he will "redirect" on you w/o any correction, what does it take to get him to do that? just seeing another dog?*

*Now I am assuming that when you say "redirect", you mean bite/attack you - is that correct? Or do you mean something else by "redirect"?*

*If your dog will "redirect" on you, I would really really recommend that you find some professional trainer/behaviorist help who is experienced with handling big aggressive dogs.*

*That sounds like a very dangerous dog! IMHO at least!*


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

codmaster said:


> No physical corrections because you are afraid he will redirect on you?
> 
> Did I read your post right?
> 
> ...


No, I do not physically correct him because he WILL redirect and is easily controlled without the use of physical force. Brains over brawn. I am not afraid of being bit, I just know how not be.

Not my first time in this rodeo and dealing with dogs others won't touch and I don't need to get physical to do it.

OP, I think you misunderstood my post. The dog I mentioned doesn't react because he wants to be closer either. He reacts because he is over stimulated and likes to test other dogs. Being allowed to get closer is a reward when he is calm. In your situation, being allowed to interact with the other dogs would be the reward and being taken out of the park would be the correction.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Codmaster, that was my post. Just incorrectly quoted by the OP. 

Yes, redirect as in bite, hard. And no, if he does it without a correction then it would not be advisable to add one and "see what happens" especially for someone not experienced or equipped to handle something like that.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i totally agree not to take him to places where there are unleashed dogs, because of his issues he will just get owrse. kind of setting him up for failure. what i would do is try and find people you know that have calm submissive dogs, maybe one on on play time. you still need to watch his signals and keep him calm before he meets the calm dog. when his nose start smelling thats the curiousity and if his other signals are calm, i would take him up to the other dog. no head on meeting try and let him smell the other dogs privates. then call him back and treat and praise him, then walk together with the other dog. if the meeting doesn't go smoothly and he gets aggressive i would maually correct him put him down in a submissive postion beside the other dog, hold him there till he relaxs. then have him repeat the greeting., tell him to be nice this time, usually they will do two things they will repeat the greeting nicely and walk away, or just avoid and walk away. just make sure the other dog is very calm and submissive, goldens work well for this. but your timing has to be right if something goes amiss. by correcting him in the act tells him its not allowed. i would never try this with anyone who has a dog that tends to be dominant, or aggressive. but there are plenty of dogs that you can work with that have calm temps. this has worked well with my gsd. if you ever encounter an aggressive dog, you need to take care of the problem not him. pepper spray, dominant stance, etc. never let him take care of it. a private trainer can set you up in these encounters and teaqch you how to react in situations so that your dog understands what you want and don't want. he will be more confident if you are and he will trust you to protect him from negative encounters,. etc.


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