# Prong Collars



## Echolicious (Feb 22, 2011)

I'm sure their are already numerous threads on this... but I really don't have time to actively scan the site--so, I'll ask anyway.

I am trying to train my pup to walk better on a leash. What's your take on prong collars? My trainer suggested I buy one.. but, is it cruel? Also, what size do I get? He's nine months and 83lbs. I'm really new to all this... and I don't want to mistreat my pup.

Any advice is greatly appreciated! THank you!


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I use prong collars with dogs that pull. They're like power steering for dogs. It's kind of a band-aid solution while you work on the pulling with your trainer, but for walking the dog while you're fixing the cause of the pulling, a prong can't be beat.


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## bigdavejoker (Feb 9, 2011)

I use a prong collar on a regular basis with my 2.5 year old Millie. It works very well with her. I was very hesitant to use it at first but at recommendation from a friend we gave it a try. If you compare it to a choke collar it is actually a much better tool. With the choke collar you have a lot of sleck and risk injurying your dog/pup when trying to correct them. They only way to control them is to choke them. 

As I understand it. A prong collar is designed to spread the pressure out around the entire neck of your dog/pup. Instead of a chock is pressure all around the neck. If you buy one make sure it is one that has clip to attack not a slip on/off or one that you have to undo one of the links to take off. This allows you to properly size the collar so that when worn it is snug on your dog. This way when you go to make a correction it is immediate instead of with a long choke chain that you have to get all the slack out of first. 

If I might ask what kind of leash work have you done? Are you in training classes? That is the best place to learn to properly use a prong collar. In fact the latest class I took doens't even use prong collars simply connect to the leash and the proper use and training/practice works great. I have not perfected that and still use a prong collar but wanted to throw that in.


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## bigdavejoker (Feb 9, 2011)

Emoore said:


> It's kind of a band-aid solution while you work on the pulling with your trainer, .


Well stated. Much better than the rambling I did.


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## Echolicious (Feb 22, 2011)

Thank you.

I just got him one week ago... and he had NEVER been walked in his life before. He had a yard to run in, but spent most of his time in a crate while his owner was away on travel. He does fairly well while on his own--but, he's easily distracted. If I take him out with our other GSD, all he wants to do is play rather than walk.

I enrolled in basic obedience, but we've only been one time so far. This saturday will be our second class out of six. I do plan to continue out training though after this session ends. So really, we just started working together.

He didn't even know "shake" or "paw" when I got him.. but, he learned that in less than a week!!!! He knows 'sit', 'down', 'stay', and 'wait' though.. so I cannot complain. He's always house trained.. it's just walking and nipping that present the biggest challenge so far!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

IMO, a prong is a much better tool than a choke collar. Make sure it is fitted correctly. Choke collars can more easily damage their trachea because of the repeated force on their throats.

I just read a report that collars can pull the dog's neck out of place. So, you want to make sure you aren't using excessive force and you want to make sure he isn't going to the end of the collar (whatever kind it is) and causing force on his neck.

But...like Emoore said...this is a bandaid solution while in training. You have to work on teaching your dog to not pull and pay attention to where you are.  So work on focus as well!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

And!! Because he is a nipper that has never had a correction collar on...don't be surprised if he tries to nip you when you first give him a correction. He might react to the 'pinch'.


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## Kayla's Dad (Jul 2, 2007)

The prong collar is not cruel if you learn how to use it properly. If trained right, you should be able to use a prong with just light pulls on the collar. Has your trainer shown you how to use to collar? I hope so, if not, he is doing a disservice by suggesting without telling/showing how it is used. That is my biggest gripe with folks/trainers suggesting a prong.

Here is a link showing how to properly fit a prong collar. How to fit a Prong collar

As far as size, either a small or medium should work. I use a medium with Kayla (82 lbs) and now a small with Lancer (70 lbs) after starting with a medium. The small gives a more flexible fit with the smaller links.


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## unloader (Feb 16, 2010)

It depends on the dog, some respond well, some don't, I use a HS prong. Keep in mind this is a training tool and should be used as such, it can become a crutch if used improperly.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

Look into clicker training. A good exercise after you teach him to "look" at you, is while your walking you say his name, as soon as he looks at you "click" then treat. This teaches him that staying in that position is good.


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## emsoskar (Oct 17, 2008)

They work well when used properly. Just remember to _never_ leave it on him when you aren't right there. 

The sizes are actually opposite of what most people would think they would be based on looks. The smaller the links, the more "bite" it has. Choosing the size depends on how sensitive your dog is. Too much can cause a negative effect and do more harm than good. I would start with a larger link (even though it looks like it would hurt worse and is more intimidating) and see how he reacts.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

I agree-- but make sure it's fitting properly and you know how to use it. There's an article, pictures and I think a video on Leerburg's Dog Training, 16,000 pages of dog training information, 300 free streaming videos, DVDs and Free Dog Training ebooks on how prong collars. I started using one on Stosh when he was about 6 mos old and still do for training and walks at new places.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

kiya said:


> Look into clicker training. A good exercise after you teach him to "look" at you, is while your walking you say his name, as soon as he looks at you "click" then treat. This teaches him that staying in that position is good.


This is good advice. Since you have only had him a week, I would really work on getting him engaged with you and learning to walk properly on a leash since it is new to him. 

Prong collars are a great training _tool_ but many people forget to do the actual training and rely on the prong forever. It just took me a couple of months to train my female off of it since it's not allowed for the training we want to do. We're still working on her not suddenly pulling me for a squirrel or to see someone but she walks well on a flat collar when she is engaged with me.

If you do get the prong, you will need a medium or small. As others have said, the smaller links give you more contact points and also allow for more precise sizing. You should also have your trainer show you have to give a correction. You shouldn't constantly be tugging the prong as that is just nagging.


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## plusdoegsd (Nov 15, 2010)

ive never had to use one luckily. my personel feeling is let the correction fit the offense. sometimes it seems like all offenses dont warrant harsh corrections. my goal is to earn their trust so my dog wants to work for me. so i try to be as gentle as possible while insisting my dog carries out my every command.


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## unloader (Feb 16, 2010)

I meant to add, I didn't start using a prong until he was 10 months and fully bonded to me and trusted me. Personally, I think 6 months is too early to start. 

I used a front clip harness that provided enough "correction" prior to 10 months. SENSE-ation Dog Harness, Dog Training Equipment | Softouch Concepts, Inc.


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## Echolicious (Feb 22, 2011)

Well, he is nine months.. so he's nearing ten months! However, I don't know if I've had him long enough to 'trust' me yet... BUT.. he is SOOOOOOOOO happy when I get home. I mean, he is ecstatic!!! He's around plenty people all day long, but just loves when I get there (I feed, walk, groom, train, etc. him).

My trainer said he'd fit him next time I come back--like I said, it's only been ONE week.


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## gypsyrose (Nov 22, 2010)

*i agree with this*



kiya said:


> Look into clicker training. A good exercise after you teach him to "look" at you, is while your walking you say his name, as soon as he looks at you "click" then treat. This teaches him that staying in that position is good.


 i considered different training collars and then studied the clicker or marker training i started using a martingale simply because gypsy cant pull out of it. i quit using any negiative training at all, deleted the word no and all yank and crank life is so much better and Gypsy and i are making great gains in our training. recomend reading "positive dog training secound edition by pamela dennison" this book along with michel ellis videos have changed my dog training life.


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

While a prong is good for training. There are other solutions, such as if the dog is pulling you in one direction to change course and walk in the other direction letting them know you are in charge of the lead not them. I think since you are just starting in the bonding process a prong is not the way to go but more of using voice and getting him to focus on you along with when out walking call him to come to you from where he is to stop the pulling. i.e. break the cycle of he is pulling and it hurts.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

I use prong collars.

like others have said, it's a tool and you need to read up of have a trainer help you with proper fit and use.

Folks who just slap one on and let dog run to the end or let the dog pull them with it on don't know how to use it.

Get a snug fit and be proactive in it's use.

In other words, it's not supposed to be self correcting, but you seeing your dog start to move ahead, you give a quick correction and release to remind your dog of his proper place. A flick of your wrist is enough.


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## RockinIt (Jan 29, 2011)

szariksdad said:


> While a prong is good for training. There are other solutions, such as if the dog is pulling you in one direction to change course and walk in the other direction letting them know you are in charge of the lead not them.* I think since you are just starting in the bonding process a prong is not the way to go* but more of using voice and getting him to focus on you along with when out walking call him to come to you from where he is to stop the pulling. i.e. break the cycle of he is pulling and it hurts.


While bigdavejoker and I do use the prong with Millie we didn't start until she was around 8 months. We'd had her since she was 12 weeks. We've made A LOT of mistakes with her and it really is a bandaid for us. It does work and I can trust her with it. Sometimes I think just the weight of it is enough to remind her I'm there because I've taken her on walks where I've taken the leash off of the prong and clipped it to the flat collar while we continue to walk with her wearing the prong. We are starting to see our work pay off though in that most of the time I can walk her with just the flat collar (no prong weight on her), but if the distractions get to be too much then I just end up being THAT owner that's constantly having to pull the dog back. It's a work in progress. 

I do agree with the poster that I quoted though. Since you've only had the dog for a week I would start trying other things before just jumping to the prong. I would give the dog a few months of active training and bonding before I even looked at a prong...no matter what my trainer said. If I was still getting no where then I might consider it. I don't intend to need that crutch for Pistol or Clemie.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

I started training professionally in 1983, beginning with training K9s (yes, I started on the opposite end of the spectrum than most trainers), and I've used all kinds of methods and philosophies over the years, and later developed my own philosophy. With that said, in my opinion, a prong collar is without a doubt the best collar there is for teaching a dog a host of things, especially how to walk on a leash properly. Note that you should not tug on it, nor should you yank on it. There is a definite science to using them properly. I've NEVER failed to get a proper Heel in 15 minutes, and most of the time it happens within 5 minutes. Of course, no one believes until they see it happen with their own dog, which is understandable, as that does sound quite far-fetched, even to me! 

Many people don't really understand how to use prong collars, or grasp the concept, which is what makes people tentative and scared to use them. A prong collar is indeed more humane than both chokes and FLAT collars. Someone posted above that choke collars are hard on the trachea, and indeed they are, not to mention blood restriction to the brain. Same thing with flat collars. In fact, trying to control a dog with a flat collar can also be hard on the joints in a dog's body, especially when a dog in lunging at the end of the leash, or you keep yanking on the leash to get him to stop tugging. Sort of like a whiplash. A prong, on the other hand is designed to simply mimic a mother's teeth on a dog's neck, and a mother dog means no harm to her pups when she's correcting them, and neither should a human. I have seen many trainers, handlers and owners mis-use prongs, and when they are mis-used they are ineffective as well as can inflict pain.

They key to using a prong is to let the dog learn self-correction with it first. To do this, just put the collar on the dog, and let him go to the end of the leash himself. Don't be an idiot like some people I know of, and start with a slack 30 ft. leash and a high distraction he'll want to chase at full-speed until he hits the end of the leash at 30 mph! In fact, if you even think of doing something like that, you probably shouldn't own a dog.

Just let him walk to the end of the leash as usual. When he feels the leash getting taught, he will feel the prongs, and likely just stop all by himself. If he stops and there is tension in the leash simply let out some slack and give a couple of quick, short jerks to get his attention, and he will most likely move a bit closer to you to remove the tension from the leash and create slack all by himself. Do that a couple of times and you're probably done with teaching him how it works.

Once he knows how it works, when you need to issue a correction you should only have to use short quick twists of your wrist to take up slack for a nanosecond while a correction is being applies. Remember you should ALWAYS have slack in the leash and only remove it temporarily when applying the correction. To clarify, slack is taken it up for less than a second, while you twist your wrist for the correction, then it's right back out again.

When used MY way, prongs can be used on virtually any age dog, even young puppies. In fact, in my current puppy course, during the second class, ALL the students elected to use prongs when I was simply demostrating equipment options, and their proper use. Mind you, I was NOT trying to influence anyone, just educating them on equipment to impart knowledge. Two thirds of the owners in the class are women, the oldest pup is 16 weeks and the youngest is 12 weeks. By class 3, one week later, ALL dogs were heeling beautifully with their heads held high, is high spirits.

I ask you, do you think ALL students would have asked to use one if any one of them thought it was cruel or inhumane? The answer is No, because not one of them saw the prong collar being used inhumanely.

With all this said, would I allow just ANY trainer to demonstrate on my own dog how to use a prong collar? From what I've seen in most trainers, the answer is absolutely not. I would ask them to show me how THEY would apply it on their own dogs first because most trainers that I've seen don't know how to use prong collars properly themselves!

To the OP, if the trainer recommended that YOU go buy a prong yourself, and you did not witness the trainer using one in a manner that you yourself would deem as perfectly fine, then you might want to think twice about learning how to use a prong collar from the trainer. Any trainer worth his or her salt should have one on hand to at least demo for you. In fact, I always have on hand prong collars, flat collars, choke collars and electric collars, and am prepared to demo any of them when someone asks. Of course, I ALWAYS advise against a choke collar of any type.

Hope this helps.


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## Kola_2010 (Jan 22, 2011)

I think there are other ways to teach them not to pull. 
I know a lot of people in my area dont like prong collars... for several reasons. 

Please dont get heated over this... its just my opinion. To each their own.


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## alaman (May 3, 2006)

Never used one as I don't find them necessary. Simply use a training collar. A sharp quick jerk and a corrective voice will train any GSD to walk on a leash very easily. Have used it on high drive dogs, dog aggressive dogs, hard dogs, soft dogs, and all combinations in between


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I have not trained any dog with them either, and won't. I use a martingale, and no way is it less humane than a prong collar as it works with the same overall structure, only minus the prongs. I have leather and cloth ones, with just the end the chain.

They are not correction collars, they will keep the dog from slipping their collar though. They will not prevent pulling. You have to train them not to pull and it takes more time than slapping on the pinch collar and letting it work its magic.


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## Echolicious (Feb 22, 2011)

Well, I ended up buying one. He is learning quite well with it... it completely transformed my other GSD too. She is a perfect angel now on walks. He's never whimpered on anything.. He just doesn't pull or try to run off anymore. He walks side-by-side with me... with a lot of slack in the leash. He no longer lunges for cars now too (which could save his life one day).


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

alaman said:


> A sharp quick jerk and a corrective voice will train any GSD to walk on a leash very easily. Have used it on high drive dogs, dog aggressive dogs, hard dogs, soft dogs, and all combinations in between


Seriously..... you are going to have to tell me your secret!


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## valreegrl (Nov 11, 2009)

I would be very cautious with utilizing a prong on a newly acquired rescue. 
The beginning relationship should be very positive. You need to build his confidence and trust in you. 
Clicker training/positive reinforcement has been proven to do just that. 

At this moment, I would use an easy walk harness and train to walk on a loose leash through foundation work. Personally I may then move into a Halti if necessary but only after I build a relationship and gained the trust I was looking for. 

Our dogs coming into rescue are a little different. There is an adjustment period that needs to be addressed and behaviors watched for. Sometimes they don't "show" immediately and only when they begin to feel completely at ease in the household. 

With that said, my opinion is no prong and lots of positive reinforcement building towards loose leash walking without the band aid


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

Echolicious said:


> Well, I ended up buying one. He is learning quite well with it... it completely transformed my other GSD too. She is a perfect angel now on walks. He's never whimpered on anything.. He just doesn't pull or try to run off anymore. He walks side-by-side with me... with a lot of slack in the leash. He no longer lunges for cars now too (which could save his life one day).


Congratulations!

And, you're right about your not dog whimpering, because he's not supposed to! 

It's sad how so many people (many trainers included) think a prong is designed to be harsh, and that it's supposed to hurt, which, as you can see, is completely incorrect. Judging by the results you're experiencing, and the fact that you have *slack* in the leash, it's obvious you're using it correctly. Good job!


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## lisgje (Sep 3, 2010)

I have used prong collars with both of my GSDs. Due to a spinal injury to my neck and surgery on my wrist, I can't use a choke (not a fan anyway) and a soft collar never worked with my dogs. Used properly a prong collar is a great tool. Chance never pulls and only had to be corrected once. He actually gets excited when I take it off the hook to go for a walk. I only use it when walking and he does not wear it at any other time. No pulling and he walks calmly at my side.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

lisgje said:


> ...He actually gets excited when I take it off the hook to go for a walk.


I hear you. I don't need a prong on my dog any more, but she jumps and whines in excitement whenever she hears the rattle of the collar. In fact, when I take one out to show someone when she's within earshot, I often put it on her when I'm done, as a treat. Of course, I also end up having to do a few quick drills with her, too, because then she thinks it's time to work! :wild:


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## WarrantsWifey (Dec 18, 2010)

My lab is a PULLER, she actually damaged her trachea when she was younger from a choke chain from pulling. We removed it from her FAST. Went to the head haltie, and now were at the prong. Wished we had started with that though!


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

Interesting you should say that. Just the other day I was commenting to someone that in my experience, pound for pound, labs seem to be the strongest pullers I've come across, and I've trained much bigger dogs known for strength. Glad to hear you got the problem licked before any serious damage!


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## Echolicious (Feb 22, 2011)

My dogs actually get super excited now when I pull out the prong collars--interesting. It can't bother them that much if they start going wild once I pull it out.

As far as him being a 'rescue' dog.. he wasn't an 'abused' dog.. he was just unsocialized. He absolutely loves his new home with me; I have no doubt. He acclimated himself so quickly, and by the second day he was 'home'. I come home several times a day when I work and take him everywhere with me.. so I think he trusts in me that I love him and won't leave him alone for a week at a time as his previous owner had to do. So all in all, he seems fine with the prong collar.


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## valreegrl (Nov 11, 2009)

Echolicious said:


> My dogs actually get super excited now when I pull out the prong collars--interesting. It can't bother them that much if they start going wild once I pull it out.
> 
> As far as him being a 'rescue' dog.. he wasn't an 'abused' dog.. he was just unsocialized. He absolutely loves his new home with me; I have no doubt. He acclimated himself so quickly, and by the second day he was 'home'. I come home several times a day when I work and take him everywhere with me.. so I think he trusts in me that I love him and won't leave him alone for a week at a time as his previous owner had to do. So all in all, he seems fine with the prong collar.


The excitement has nothing to do with the prong itself and whether or not it hurts or doesn't hurt, it's that action that follows. He gets to go out and do something fun. 

Although my opinion is a prong is not necessary, I am happy you are working with your new "unsocialized" dog to better his lifestyle. 
Remember, you are utilizing a training TOOL and is a band-aid for the real issue. Training foundations need to follow. 

I would just have never introduced negative reinforcement to such a new dog.


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

I find it interesting that you got a dog that was unsocialized and instead of developing a bond and leading the dog in how you want to act you decide to outsource your job to a collar to solve the problem.


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## Echolicious (Feb 22, 2011)

szariksdad said:


> I find it interesting that you got a dog that was unsocialized and instead of developing a bond and leading the dog in how you want to act you decide to outsource your job to a collar to solve the problem.


I'm sorry, but perhaps this is coming across wrong to me. I am developing a bond with my dog. We go to obedience classes every saturday so I can learn how to correct unwanted behaviors.

I play and walk with him every single day. I brush him daily, feed him, play ball with him, give him a plethora of toys, take him to the pet store to walk around, etc.

He think's he's a bear_and he chases cars. When he was on a regular choke collar he'd lunge for cars as they passed. I'd rather train him with something more effective to hopefully save his life one day when he plans to run in front of another car.

Sorry, but your post offends me. I am doing everything I can to bond with my puppy. My trainer recommened the prong collar, so I did my research, asked around and made a decision. It's proven to me to be effective, and he doesn't seem to mind it at all.


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## krystyne73 (Oct 13, 2010)

Be prepared, many comments on here can/ are offensive. I usually don't bother to reply to those.
I bought a pronged collar, we actually put it on myself and the Hubby. We wanted to see how it worked. It doesn't hurt at all. I consider it like a "balance bracelet effect" just a simple reminder. I have used it on one dog for years and just recently
Added it to 2 of my other dogs per my trainers advice. 
Sizing and correct use will be the key. Glad you are trying all you can to work with your dog!


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## Echolicious (Feb 22, 2011)

krystyne73 said:


> Be prepared, many comments on here can/ are offensive. I usually don't bother to reply to those.
> I bought a pronged collar, we actually put it on myself and the Hubby. We wanted to see how it worked. It doesn't hurt at all. I consider it like a "balance bracelet effect" just a simple reminder. I have used it on one dog for years and just recently
> Added it to 2 of my other dogs per my trainers advice.
> Sizing and correct use will be the key. Glad you are trying all you can to work with your dog!


Thank you  I appreciate this. Maybe I should try it on too, lol. I just bought one for our four year old GSD too, and she doesn't seem to mind it either.. and man, her walking has improved drastically.

I definitely don't want to get fiesty with people--on a site where I'm trying to receive feedback, etc. Everyone has their own opinions and perceptions... if only everyone would realize THAT'S okay and not be so presumptious.


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## Girth (Jan 27, 2011)

The term "holier than thou" comes to mind. I use a prong collar and have no regets.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

I personally don't think anyone was being "holier than thou" or said the prong collar was bad. The advice was that since the relationship was new to work on positive based training before going to compulsion and it was not bad advice.

The prong is an excellent _tool_ to assist in training. The prong is a correction collar and some people believe that correction should be used _after_ it is determined that the dog knows what is expected. So in the case of chasing cars, one would first positively (with praise and treats) train that focusing on the handler instead of cars is the appropriate response and possibly teach "leave it" when the dog looks at the car and then use the prong to correct when it is clear the dog knows what is expected but does not do it instead of jumping right to correcting the dog for lunging at cars without first explaining why they shouldn't do it and what should be done instead.

Just a different approach to training.


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## Echolicious (Feb 22, 2011)

Thanks. I am still trying to learn about how to train a dog and such. I will bring treats with me too and try to get him to focus his attention more on me. He does great when we're alone.. but he gets SO distracted very easily. It's like he knows what's expected of him.. but has severe ADHD!



gsdraven said:


> I personally don't think anyone was being "holier than thou" or said the prong collar was bad. The advice was that since the relationship was new to work on positive based training before going to compulsion and it was not bad advice.
> 
> The prong is an excellent _tool_ to assist in training. The prong is a correction collar and some people believe that correction should be used _after_ it is determined that the dog knows what is expected. So in the case of chasing cars, one would first positively (with praise and treats) train that focusing on the handler instead of cars is the appropriate response and possibly teach "leave it" when the dog looks at the car and then use the prong to correct when it is clear the dog knows what is expected but does not do it instead of jumping right to correcting the dog for lunging at cars without first explaining why they shouldn't do it and what should be done instead.
> 
> Just a different approach to training.


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## valreegrl (Nov 11, 2009)

gsdraven said:


> I personally don't think anyone was being "holier than thou" or said the prong collar was bad. The advice was that since the relationship was new to work on positive based training before going to compulsion and it was not bad advice.
> 
> The prong is an excellent _tool_ to assist in training. The prong is a correction collar and some people believe that correction should be used _after_ it is determined that the dog knows what is expected. So in the case of chasing cars, one would first positively (with praise and treats) train that focusing on the handler instead of cars is the appropriate response and possibly teach "leave it" when the dog looks at the car and then use the prong to correct when it is clear the dog knows what is expected but does not do it instead of jumping right to correcting the dog for lunging at cars without first explaining why they shouldn't do it and what should be done instead.
> 
> Just a different approach to training.


Thanks  Like how you put that for sure.

Everyone is here for a reason, to learn. And offer opinions, but they are just that. What works for me may not work for you and so on. Sometimes people believe deeply in what they are saying so it may come across too strong. 

The only thing you can do as an owner is research what you are being told and make an informed decision. Unfortunately, some people get bad advise from trainers (not saying you did). And not all trainers are well versed dealing with rescue or abuse case dogs. 
In my experience, an abused dog needs confidence and that is not achieved through negative reinforcement. It's impossible. You cannot build a dog up with punishment. I want to get a good positive training foundation under my belt with these type of dogs before moving on to corrections.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Echolicious said:


> Thanks. I am still trying to learn about how to train a dog and such. I will bring treats with me too and try to get him to focus his attention more on me. He does great when we're alone.. but he gets SO distracted very easily. It's like he knows what's expected of him.. but has severe ADHD!


Are you working on focus at home? Usually the idea is to gradually add in distractions. All of our dogs are obedience stars either in our living room or at class, it's getting them to do it in different environments when there are much more interesting things going on that is a challenge for a lot of dog owners. 

I know you can't gradually add distractions when working on something major like car chasing but you can work on focus in different environments while slowly adding in distractions and one day it will transfer to walks with a car going by.

Getting him to think you are the most interesting thing in the world is going to make anything you are training him to do so much easier and the best way to do that is to make sure you are associated with lots of good things (praise and treats).


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## Echolicious (Feb 22, 2011)

I don't consider this dog abused at all.. He was neglected in the sense that his onwer traveled a lot. He was in really good health and well cared for. The guy didn't WANT to give him up.. but he did because it wasn't fair to Echo to spend so much time in a crate.

Is that considered abuse?


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## valreegrl (Nov 11, 2009)

Echolicious said:


> I don't consider this dog abused at all.. He was neglected in the sense that his onwer traveled a lot. He was in really good health and well cared for. The guy didn't WANT to give him up.. but he did because it wasn't fair to Echo to spend so much time in a crate.
> 
> Is that considered abuse?


I am guessing I misinterpreted when you said "you only had him for a week".

Neglect is abuse, in my opinion. But what you are battling with neglect in this case is poor socialization, I am assuming.


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

I think you did not get what I was driving at with my post. It is easy to go and grab a simple solution like a prong collar to stop lunging at traffic however it does not solve the leadership problem you and your dog has where he clearly understands the rules you have for him and that he abides by them. Those rules and helping him to understand those rules are key to being a good leader. Just putting a collar on him and then saying that fixes the problem is a band-aid is all. You said in an earlier post you had only had him a week and so i went off of that and that he needed a leader to guide him in what is expected in his new house and not necessarily a band-aid to solve the problem at hand. Also in your very first post you went about what type of prong and that not what the problem was and the history so I have to go with the info you provided which was scant so I still say spend time leading the pack in a fair firm and consistent way and he will follow.


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## Echolicious (Feb 22, 2011)

valreegrl said:


> I am guessing I misinterpreted when you said "you only had him for a week".
> 
> Neglect is abuse, in my opinion. But what you are battling with neglect in this case is poor socialization, I am assuming.


Yeah.. well, were on week three now  He's a sweet pie, and definitely took to me of everyone in the house. He loves us all, but he's my boy for sure when I'm home. He was well cared for as I said.. he knows basic commands and is generally a good pup--just completely unsocialized when I got him. THat's why I take him almost everywhere I can with me. I'm always introducing him to new animals and people!


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## Echolicious (Feb 22, 2011)

Thank you. I'm very sensitive and easily offended anyway--I probably read way too much into it. As I just said, we're on week three now. He is certainly testing his limits with me though. It's really hard to be a pack leader to a hyper, ninety pound dog. He just wants to play, play and play.. he really loses attention fast. I'm trying everything I can... this is my first experience training a dog.. so I'm quite confused and uneducated in that regard (I am educating myself though).



szariksdad said:


> I think you did not get what I was driving at with my post. It is easy to go and grab a simple solution like a prong collar to stop lunging at traffic however it does not solve the leadership problem you and your dog has where he clearly understands the rules you have for him and that he abides by them. Those rules and helping him to understand those rules are key to being a good leader. Just putting a collar on him and then saying that fixes the problem is a band-aid is all. You said in an earlier post you had only had him a week and so i went off of that and that he needed a leader to guide him in what is expected in his new house and not necessarily a band-aid to solve the problem at hand. Also in your very first post you went about what type of prong and that not what the problem was and the history so I have to go with the info you provided which was scant so I still say spend time leading the pack in a fair firm and consistent way and he will follow.


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## myshepharley (Feb 11, 2011)

My personal experience with my GSD and collars was that a choker did not phase him in the least when walking so I tried a prong except it is hard plastic. Worked like a charm. If he starts to pull, all I do is give a quick tug and he is back in line after that. Now we can both enjoy our walks instead of me getting frustrated with him the whole time.


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

If he loses focus easily make him earn each meal he eats by having him sit and look at you first few will be a couple of seconds, then build to up to 20seconds. Then introduce distractions around you. Then have work on other forms of OB to finish up for the meal, i.e down, sit or stay. Then take this work from the kitchen or inside the house out to the outside world. Of course a puppy try's our patience just like a kid. Just have to be patient and be consistent with having him follow the rules you have set.


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## DCluver33 (May 27, 2010)

Echolicious said:


> Thank you. I'm very sensitive and easily offended anyway--I probably read way too much into it. As I just said, we're on week three now. He is certainly testing his limits with me though. It's really hard to be a pack leader to a hyper, ninety pound dog. He just wants to play, play and play.. he really loses attention fast. I'm trying everything I can... this is my first experience training a dog.. so I'm quite confused and uneducated in that regard (I am educating myself though).


have you tried NILIF? that worked wonders for my 75 pound ball of energy


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## vicky2200 (Oct 29, 2010)

I think prong arent cruel, but are often used in a cruel way, sometimes unintentionally. However, I have never used one and do not think I ever will because I think they are are rough and can scare the dog.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

vicky2200 said:


> I think prong arent cruel, but are often used in a cruel way, sometimes unintentionally. However, I have never used one and do not think I ever will because I think they are are rough and can scare the dog.


But are you just saying that because of how the collar looks? Or do you actually have experience of the collar scaring dogs? Because in my experience most dogs take to it very well and it does not bother them at all. It is a collar the "understand", in that the correction means something to them in their dog way of communicating. The term I use is that dogs will respect the collar - there is no negative association of fear, just an understanding of the signals the handler is giving via the collar that the dogs will listen too (as opposed to completely tuning out and ignoring the corrections or the tightening of a choke or regular collar, for example).


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## Echolicious (Feb 22, 2011)

I appreciate the advice. In obedience we're praciticing "watch me" so he'll pay more attention. I do make him sit before each meal, so he's definitely got that part down. I will try and make him sit longer.. it's so hard with FOUR dogs begging for food though! 



szariksdad said:


> If he loses focus easily make him earn each meal he eats by having him sit and look at you first few will be a couple of seconds, then build to up to 20seconds. Then introduce distractions around you. Then have work on other forms of OB to finish up for the meal, i.e down, sit or stay. Then take this work from the kitchen or inside the house out to the outside world. Of course a puppy try's our patience just like a kid. Just have to be patient and be consistent with having him follow the rules you have set.


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## Echolicious (Feb 22, 2011)

Apparently not.. I am unsure what NILIF stands for...



DCluver33 said:


> have you tried NILIF? that worked wonders for my 75 pound ball of energy


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Here's a good website on NILIF: Nothing in Life is Free

And a good informative thread discussing how to implement NILIF and what the purpose is: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-theory-methods/149969-nilif-no-instructions.html


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

valreegrl said:


> The excitement has nothing to do with the prong itself and whether or not it hurts or doesn't hurt, it's that action that follows. He gets to go out and do something fun.


That's the point, exactly. If what was to follow was something painful, the dog wouldn't have any fun. Have you ever seen a dog that was abused by a prong collar, or any other tool, for that matter? He/she cringes and cowers from it. He/she would definitely not look forward to what comes after they see that abusive tool. This person is obviously not inflicting pain via their use of the prong collar. 



> I would just have never introduced negative reinforcement to such a new dog.


It is NOT negative, as is evident by the fact that the OP's new dog has not reacted negatively. The dog simply stopped tugging.


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## Coastie01 (Mar 17, 2011)

MrLeadFoot said:


> It is NOT negative, as is evident by the fact that the OP's new dog has not reacted negatively. The dog simply stopped tugging.


Introducing discomfort is negative. I am all for prong collars used as a tool but it very much is a negative correction.


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