# Two Puppies



## shepdogs2 (May 1, 2012)

Hello,

We are in search of our new forever friends. We had 2 beautiful GSD's Cagney and Lacey for 12/13 years litter mates that seemed to have a very strong bond. They behaved better into adult hood, however in the beginning it was a bit of mayhem getting them to be responsive to us. We were considering getting one puppy now and then another later in a few months, but now we are thinking that it might be best to just go through puppy stage once and get two puppies again together. 

We were thinking this time that we might get 2 puppies(GSD females) from 2 different litters around the same age as that might help with the issue of them being bonded so close in the beginning and more respectful of our pack leadership. Appreciate thoughts and suggestions.

Thanks in advance.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

It doesn't matter if they are related or not. You will have the same issues as with litter mates. Personally I would wait until the oldest is two years old.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

A lot of people will tell you that two puppies at once is not such a great thing, and two females may fight, especially down the road. It is doable, but getting two that are approximately the same age means they could be close in power and might constantly be at each other. While two males are often ok if raised together, and a male and female is the best combination. But I take it you raised Cagney and Lacy and other than how they bonded, you really didn't have issues? Are they both females then? 

I really don't know if getting them from two litters will help with the bonding together. A new puppy just out of its own litter will be looking to bond to whoever is available to bond to. And if there is another puppy about the same age, and they are raised together, chances are they will have a pretty tight bond.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

wolfy dog said:


> It doesn't matter if they are related or not. You will have the same issues as with litter mates. Personally I would wait until the oldest is two years old.


Different dogs are different. You can have some issues that are worse than your other pair, and you can have some issues that are less of a problem. I have raised a number of littermates and have not experienced the problem with bonding more between the dogs than with me. 

Waiting for two to four years between puppies means puppy A is pretty well trained and can help in the training of puppy B, and when puppy A become geriatric, Puppy B is generally still going strong. Sometimes when they are raised together all their lives, when the one goes, the other goes shortly after, which is a double-whammie as now the house is totally empty and you have had your heart wrenched twice.


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## shepdogs2 (May 1, 2012)

Cagney and Lacey got along very well- they loved each other Cagney passed away last May from DM and Lacey in February also from DM. The biggest issue we had was the fact they it was really difficult training them and socializing them without being dragged everywhere, before they learned appropriate obedience cues and even after Cag bless her had to always be first. Loading in the car, out the door, etc. She was very sweet and loving however she was the boss to Lacey. Lacey watched the door and made sure the house was secure and was very accepting of her position.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Male/female combos tend to work better than two females together. 

I think it would be better to get one pup first, wait a year or two until they are trained and well behaved enough that they are a positive role model, then get your second pup. 

Here are a whole bunch of other reasons why it is better to do just one puppy at the time:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...67994-should-i-get-two-puppies-dogs-once.html


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

shepdogs2 said:


> Hello,
> 
> We are in search of our new forever friends. We had 2 beautiful GSD's Cagney and Lacey for 12/13 years litter mates that seemed to have a very strong bond. They behaved better into adult hood, however in the beginning it was a bit of mayhem getting them to be responsive to us. We were considering getting one puppy now and then another later in a few months, but now we are thinking that it might be best to just go through puppy stage once and get two puppies again together.
> 
> ...


Ok I've had two littermates, boys and now I have to little lab mixes not littermates. A ton of people are going to tell you not to do two at once. I have no problem with it. If you have the time and money go for it. I personally wouldn't do two females, but that is your choice. I really don't see a difference between the bond between the two littermates I had and the two non-litttermates, but close in age, pups. They are close and that is the nature of having two. Some people want the dog to bond only with them. I don't get that. I love they have friends... I think they bond with me just fine and I enjoy having a pack. 

I am an only child and it sucked! I think two not only increases costs and the work but it also increases the fun and the joy. Its hard when they pass close to each other but totally worth it in my book.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

You have raised littermates. So you know the pit falls, and stuff. You also know that it can work out, and if you want both females, sometimes that can work better if they are raised from babies, they determine who is who, when they are unlikely to kill each other, and in your case, they stuck to that all along. 

But, that was 11/12 years ago. Something I always tell my dad 60 does not = 40. Well it's been a few years since then, I said that to my sister last week 40 does not equal 20. I don't know about you, but I had WAY more energy 10-12 years ago. Raising, training and socializing a pair of puppies at this stage in the game is a little more daunting. 

And the other thing is we often forget how bad it was when they were little. Love makes us blind to that when they have been so good for so long. Maybe it is a little disloyal when they are very old or passing or just passed to recall any of the _joys_ of puppyhood.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

selzer said:


> But, that was 11/12 years ago. Something I always tell my dad 60 does not = 40. Well it's been a few years since then, I said that to my sister last week 40 does not equal 20. I don't know about you, but I had WAY more energy 10-12 years ago. Raising, training and socializing a pair of puppies at this stage in the game is a little more daunting.
> 
> And the other thing is we often forget how bad it was when they were little. Love makes us blind to that when they have been so good for so long. Maybe it is a little disloyal when they are very old or passing or just passed to recall any of the _joys_ of puppyhood.


Actually Selzer for me its a lot easier now than it was 11 years ago when I raised Buddy and Shadow. I know the tricks. I know how to wear them out and what keeps them busy, what to buy for them to chew on. And heck one thing that is much easier now is that I can afford it much better. LOL I also am not raising kids at the same time so I have more time to spend giving individual attention.


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## shepdogs2 (May 1, 2012)

Very good points.. I have aged with our girls.. So much to consider. On the one had it's great for them to have doggie companionship and also for us to go through puppy stage once - as we plan on an extended canine family. Kids are teens so they are more interested in their gadgets.. Ideally the answer is one at a time but then the visit to the breeders and all those beautiful babies just waiting to go home -may lead to us driving away with more than one. So much to consider.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

shepdogs2 said:


> Cagney and Lacey got along very well- they loved each other Cagney passed away last May from DM and Lacey in February also from DM. The biggest issue we had was the fact they it was really difficult training them and socializing them without being dragged everywhere, before they learned appropriate obedience cues and even after Cag bless her had to always be first. Loading in the car, out the door, etc. She was very sweet and loving however she was the boss to Lacey. Lacey watched the door and made sure the house was secure and was very accepting of her position.


Just wanted to add I'm sorry for your loses... DM really sucks. We lost Shadow to DM at 9. Thankfully his littlermate Buddy is still going strong at 11. He is really enjoying watching the lab pups play and running after them. I had to up his food intake because he lost so much weight playing.

Also another thing to consider is adopting. Our last several dogs have come from rescue or shelter. So many cute babies needing homes.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i would get a puppy and once that pup is well trained and
highly socialized i would get another pup.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

doggiedad said:


> i would get a puppy and once that pup is well trained and
> highly socialized i would get another pup.


Me too.

Why take a chance when you know you can raise one perfect pup at a time. Easier for the pup and for you. 

As far as wanting to help the breeder by taking more pups off their hands, truth is there are ALWAYS puppies being born and they will need homes in the future and you'll be helping them out.

PLEASE take the time to read --> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...67994-should-i-get-two-puppies-dogs-once.html 

and not just listen to all our short answers and responses. There a links from top trainers/breeders.

Which frankly makes me a bit leery on your breeder considering giving you two puppies anyways. Most of the best breeders care more for their puppies than what a potential owner thinks they want and wouldn't consider giving 2 of their pups to the same person except in rare instances.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Me too.
> 
> Why take a chance when you know you can raise one perfect pup at a time. Easier for the pup and for you.
> 
> ...


 Apparently you missed that the OP has successfully done it before and is not a first time dog owner. 

There are many, many good breeders out there that will let you buy two puppies. There are a few on this board that won't. That doesn't make them the BEST breeders.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

The OP is wondering if getting two puppies again is a good idea. There were some issues with raising two that he wasn't sure if it was due to having two puppies together, or if the issues would be there if the puppies were brought into the home one at a time. 

I'd rather set someone up for success with suggestions that are doable, than set them, and the pups, up for failure by making something very demanding sound easy because one other person here has done it successfully. I think over the years, there has been quite a few more people saying that they did two puppies at the same time and they will never do it again! Pups may have turned out okay, but the effort and time is took was just exhausting.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Castlemaid said:


> The OP is wondering if getting two puppies again is a good idea. There were some issues with raising two that he wasn't sure if it was due to having two puppies together, or if the issues would be there if the puppies were brought into the home one at a time.
> 
> I'd rather set someone up for success with suggestions that are doable, than set them, and the pups, up for failure by making something very demanding sound easy because one other person here has done it successfully. I think over the years, there has been quite a few more people saying that they did two puppies at the same time and they will never do it again! Pups may have turned out okay, but the effort and time is took was just exhausting.


Many many people have also raised two puppies together successfully and with no problems including breeders. It is not something I would recommend for a newbie but for someone who has already done it, and choose to do two puppies at once rather than go through puppy hood twice several years apart it makes sense. The OP having gone through it is already knowing what they are getting into. I believe the main question was getting two from the same litter or if getting two from different litters made a difference. My own opinion on that is no. They are equally as much joy and equally as much a pain in the butt.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

I would also add that being able to raise two pups together once does not mean that any other attempts are going to be as successful. For the average pet owner, raising two together (especially two females) is not a good idea and does end up being problematic.

OP, you say that one of your girls was clearly in charge, and the other was more submissive to that dog. How different would your one experience raising them together have been if *both* dogs had decided to be in charge? It doesn't matter if the pups are actual littermates or just two same-age pups being raised together. The behavior dynamics are the same.

I really want to stress that I am speaking as the average pet owner here. Slezer is a breeder, with multiple dog runs in her yard. And she does have dogs that don't like each other, so she rotates them in and out of the outside kennels. That is the experience that informs her opinion. Most pet owners don't have the luxury of multiple kennel runs, giving them the ability to keep dogs separated for the rest of their lives. Most of us bring dogs into our homes to be companions, not revolving kennel ornaments. 

Which is not to bash Slezer, just to point out that her situation and experience is not the same as the OPs (or the majority of other pet owners), and her opinion is formed by her situation and experiences. Selzer, you sell a lot of puppies. Do you routinely sell multiple pups to the same home? If you do, what thought process do you put into making the decision about which puppy buyer can handle it and which buyer can't? Or do you figure that they have the right to get what they want and so will sell multiple pups to any buyer that requests it?

OP, I totally understand how attractive the idea of going through the puppy phase only once is! It can be rough, and some pups make it even rougher! But the rewards of doing it well are countless. I am willing to bet that if you were to purchase one pup, raise her or him to be the best dog possible and then in two or three years add another pup and raise that pup just as well, you will experience the benefits first hand and that experience will shift your whole mind set. The dogs that you end up with will make going through the puppy phase twice so worth it.

I am sorry for your double loss. Cagney and Lacey. I love those names! That show was a favorite of mine. And I wish you good luck in whatever puppy choice you make. 
Sheilah


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

shepherdmom said:


> Many many people have also raised two puppies together successfully and with no problems including breeders.


Many breeders have set ups that do NOT mimic the same lifestyle as the average pet owner. Many breeders have kennel runs, and they can easily keep warring bitches separated. I don't think breeders should be used at all to prove that same-age pups can be successfully raised together without incident. A breeder by definition has a different goal than the pet owner. It is comparing apples and oranges.

And for every one of those "many people" have "raised two puppies together successfully" there are three people who have not been able to do it successfully. And you know who ends up suffering because of those failures? The dogs. Not the people who thought they could handle it, or the idiots on some anonymous internet BB who encouraged it (not calling you an idiot, shepherdmom, I am talking in general terms). The dogs are the ones who suffer from the failure.
Sheilah


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

shepherdmom said:


> There are many, many good breeders out there that will let you buy two puppies.


Name one. Give me one example of a good breeder who will sell the average pet owner two puppies at the same time.
Sheilah


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

sit said:


> Name one. Give me one example of a good breeder who will sell the average pet owner two puppies at the same time.
> Sheilah


My breeder. She has breed working SAR dogs for over 30 years.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Our litter mate females will be 3 in July and we've had it pretty easy, in fact they are the easiest dogs I've raised. Being married and having both of us fully involved with all aspects of raising them is key, I don't think I would do it by myself.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

shepdogs2 said:


> We were considering getting one puppy now and then another later in a few months, but now we are thinking that it might be best to just go through puppy stage once and get two puppies again together.


Done right, raising a puppy is hard - it's time consuming and it can be exhausting. And that's with just ONE puppy at a time, where you can give it your 100% full attention for housebreaking, training, and socialization. If you really want two dogs, wouldn't it be better to get a puppy now, and wait until she's trained to the point where you want her to be, and then think about adding a second puppy. That way, with the first one already trained, you can then devote sufficient time and energy to housebreaking, training, and socializing the second one. Ideally that would be at least a year, not just a few months, and even better a few years. Also - you've already lost two seniors in a short amount of time, do you really want to go through that heartbreak again? 



> We were thinking this time that we might get 2 puppies(GSD females) from 2 different litters around the same age as that might help with the issue of them being bonded so close in the beginning and more respectful of our pack leadership.


Being from different litters isn't going to make much, if any, difference. Getting two puppies at the same time means you're going to have the same struggles with bonding more to each other than with you that you had previously. I think getting one at a time would be easier for you, and fairer to each puppy, who won't have to compete with each other for your time and energy.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

sit said:


> And for every one of those "many people" have "raised two puppies together successfully" there are three people who have not been able to do it successfully. And you know who ends up suffering because of those failures? The dogs. Not the people who thought they could handle it, or the idiots on some anonymous internet BB who encouraged it (not calling you an idiot, shepherdmom, I am talking in general terms). The dogs are the ones who suffer from the failure.
> Sheilah


I would not recommend it for a first time owner, I help in rescue and see daily on my FB page the dogs put to sleep because people can not handle them. 

This one was put down at OC yesterday. 










But the OP in this case is an experienced owner who has successfully raised two litter mate in the past. There is a big difference between not recommending it to a newbie, and to someone who has already been there done that. I also would like to recommend to the OP to get your puppies from rescue and from the shelters.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

shepherdmom said:


> But the OP in this case is an experienced owner who has successfully raised two litter mate in the past.


Yes, once. 13 years ago! When we got Cassidy as a puppy after losing Sneaker at 14-1/2 years old, both of us had forgotten what a challenge raising a puppy was. Also, Sneaker had been a pretty easy dog for a GSD and Cassidy was her polar opposite. So not only were we 14 years older than the last time we had a puppy, this one took a LOT more work than the last one, and we were really not prepared for that. I pretty much had to relearn how to train a dog, even though after having had one for over 14 years would seem like we were pretty experienced dog owners, because she needed a lot more training than Sneaker ever did.

Just because the OP was successful with those two littermates a long time ago doesn't mean that it won't be much more challenging this time around. Each dog we've ever had has been an individual, and the dynamics between them have also been completely different. Dena & Keefer together were much easier than Keefer and Halo have been - you can't assume that it's going to be just like it was last time, and that everything will work out okay because it did before, because it's not the same dogs you had last time.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

shepherdmom said:


> My breeder. She has breed working SAR dogs for over 30 years.


Who is she? Other than you saying she is a good breeder, and that she has been breeding working SAR dogs for over 30 years, what objective proof do you have that she is a good breeder?

There are a lot of people that have been doing something for a long time. That in and of itself could simply mean that they have been making the wrong decisions for a long time.

I am honestly not trying to be argumentative here. I am trying to point out that anyone's recommendations and/or encouragements for anything should be weighted by the depth and breadth of their experiences, their objectivity regarding who or what they base their recommendations and/or encouragements on and their own lifestyles and situations. 

Shepherdmom, if I remember correctly, you have been okay with rehoming dogs that haven't worked out for you. That is something that should be considered, weight should be given to that fact, because your advice, recommendations and encouragements are informed by your willingness to rehome if it doesn't work out. What you are willing to try with dogs might not be appropriate for someone else, because they would never consider rehoming a dog that didn't work out. They would be "stuck" with the dog, for lack of a better word, because they did not give reasonable weight to your recommendations, advice and/or encouragements and just ran with it on it's face value.

Again, I am not trying to be argumentative simply to be argumentative. And I am certainly not singling you out. I think the internet, and it's basic lack of context, makes it so easy to fall into this pattern. If everyone knew each other in real life, we could put our recommendations, advice and encouragements into a useful perspective because we would have a context to weight them with. SoAndSo says that BreederX is wonderful because her puppy is from BreederX and her puppy is wonderful-however I know puppy in real life and I know that puppy is fearful and has horrible food allergies. I also know that SoAndSo has never owned a dog before and has very little understanding of just how poorly her puppy is breed. I can give SoAndSo's recommendation the weight my contextual understanding provides.
Sheilah


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

shepherdmom said:


> But the OP in this case is an experienced owner who has successfully raised two litter mate in the past. There is a big difference between not recommending it to a newbie, and to someone who has already been there done that. I also would like to recommend to the OP to get your puppies from rescue and from the shelters.


But how do you know their experience level? The OP said they raised two female littermates successfully. Is their definition of "successful" the same as yours? Or mine? 

Perhaps the two dogs duked it out every single day and the OP didn't know enough to recognize it as aggression and thought they just played rough? Perhaps one of the two dogs was exceptionally submissive, and never once even considered pushing rank issues with the other dog? 
Perhaps the children that lived in the house took a very strong interest in dog training and the two pups were raised independently of each other? 

You don't know. You can't know. And it is irresponsible to decide anyone is experienced based on their subjective use of a word. The OP could be the most experienced dog owner in the world. Who knows? I don't. Neither do you. 
Sheilah


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

People's opinions differ. No need to mention the name of Shepherdmom's breeder since that would most likely turn into a breeder bash.

The OP needs to decide what is best for them. Raising two pups at the same time can be a huge challenge. There are a lot more disadvantages than there are advantages. We have had people come into class with littermates and constantly looking for advice about how to solve the issues that others have mentioned. Bonding with the other pup more than the owners is one of the biggest issues. Everyone of my dogs would be perfectly happy to be an only dog that has all of my attention. Dogs don't need doggy friends.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

sit said:


> Who is she? Other than you saying she is a good breeder, and that she has been breeding working SAR dogs for over 30 years, what objective proof do you have that she is a good breeder?
> 
> There are a lot of people that have been doing something for a long time. That in and of itself could simply mean that they have been making the wrong decisions for a long time.
> 
> ...


First off I know she is a good breeder because many of her dogs are decorated SAR dogs. She not only breeds she handles... I posted a link to Buddy's sire's memorial page a while back. If you are interested I'm sure you can find the thread or the link. His name was John Henry Von Czechov. He was certified air scent as well as cadaver work. 

As for re-homing. I returned one dog too her because it didn't work out. The 2 year old dog was with us for approximately one month and never would calm down with my husband barking and growling at him no matter what we tried. It was a matter of safety for everyone involved. I didn't want my husband or kid to get bit and I didn't want the dog to get a bite record because she felt the need to protect me from everyone. I couldn't convince her that I didn't need protecting. So that was totally my fault. I was not a strong enough alpha for her needs. (I forgot to mention too, that I took her both to the vet and to a trainer before decided on returning her) 

I also re-homed a Great Dane who was trying to kill my senior shepherd. The Dane went to trusted co-workers. It was more of a foster situation in the first place, but had she not wanted to kill my Nakita we would probably have kept her. 

Once my dogs are part of my pack they are with me for life. I would never re-home an old dog. So I'm not sure what you are trying to insinuate with your post. Every puppy I've ever gotten has been with me for life. 

Are you saying because I help with rescue I'm more willing to see mistakes made? If so you couldn't be more wrong. I just don't like the attitude of some that because they don't like two puppies or couldn't handle two puppies that it is a mistake for everyone. A large number of people can and do successfully raise two puppies.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

sit said:


> I would also add that being able to raise two pups together once does not mean that any other attempts are going to be as successful. For the average pet owner, raising two together (especially two females) is not a good idea and does end up being problematic.
> 
> OP, you say that one of your girls was clearly in charge, and the other was more submissive to that dog. How different would your one experience raising them together have been if *both* dogs had decided to be in charge? It doesn't matter if the pups are actual littermates or just two same-age pups being raised together. The behavior dynamics are the same.
> 
> ...


I really have a hard time getting by the screw up on my name. I am not Slezer, I am Selzer. Thanks. I see you got it right when you were asking me direct questions. 

You say I sell a lot of puppies. A lot compared to what, I would like to know. In eight years of breeding, I am on my 12th litter, two of those litters were single puppies. I guess 1-2 litters per year, in my opinion is really not a lot of puppies. 

I have NEVER sold two puppies to the same person. So far I have had a couple of repeat customers, and I have sold puppies to people who already have a puppy -- usually they tell me that after I sold them the puppy. But in my opinion, I do feel that some people can handle two, especially if one is their police dog, and the other (mine) is for the family pet -- did that a few times and it is working just fine. 

But these people are not typical pet people. They know all about training, and they generally do have a set up that allows for dogs to be separated. 

At some point, I do let people who have a history of owning dogs make their own decision. But, that does not mean I sell two out of the same litter. I never have, and I _probably _never will, even though I have heard the advice to sell them two. I generally advise people, even puppy buyers not to do two at once. The OP HAS already done two at once, so they have the t-shirt on that. To me that makes a difference. And STILL, I offered some suggestions about how 12 years ago, they may have had more energy, been at a different place, etc. 

My girls do not bond more with eachother than they bond with me, even though they are generally housed together much longer than average puppies, usually a year or more, when I raise littermates. But it is true that once I do separate them, I do have separate runs, because they are intact bitches, and I don't want to come home to a blood bath. 

I know pet owners who have successfully raised littermates. And people who keep more than one female within the family unit -- not kenneled when they are not home, etc. But it is really something that not everyone is prepared to manage.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Even thinking about when I first got my puppy is exhausting! lol

There's NO WAY I'd get two puppies together. Holy Hannah, I was totally overwhelmed by my current pup when I got her, who celebrates her first birthday on the 28th of this month. I love her dearly, but she was really a handful as a wee pup, I cannot imagine going through that with two to try and manage!


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

selzer said:


> I really have a hard time getting by the screw up on my name. I am not Slezer, I am Selzer. Thanks. I see you got it right when you were asking me direct questions.
> 
> I have NEVER sold two puppies to the same person.
> 
> But, that does not mean I sell two out of the same litter. I never have, and I _probably _never will, even though I have heard the advice to sell them two. I generally advise people, even puppy buyers not to do two at once. The OP HAS already done two at once, so they have the t-shirt on that. To me that makes a difference.


Sorry about mangling your name. I can think faster than I can type. Not very fast in either case, but my typing skills leave much to be desired. It was not intentional at all. You will notice that it was a simple case of transposing two letters, a mistake that I make often with many different words. Again, it was not intentional.

This is not directed at any one person, although, selzer, your comments I quoted above highlight the issue nicely. So I will use your comments only because they are conveniently right here, and not because you are the only person in the history of the internet to do this. 

Here is what I don't understand: you say "*I have NEVER sold two puppies to the same person*". And yet, you will often comment here that you have raised littermates together, and tell people asking for advice on the subject:
_It can be done. Most of my dogs were littermates. 
Most of them were kenneled with a littermate for 12 - 15 months when I was not home. They played together, were in the house together, I trained them in classes separately and titled them together. 
None of them bonded more closely with the other dog than with me._

So you haven't personally sold two littermates to the same home, but by sharing your experience with littermates, you highlight your success doing so. When people are standing in front of you in real life, you haven't done it. But on an internet BB you will say, "It can be done". If your buyers are wonderful, and you believe it can be done, why don't you do it in real life? It sounds like buyers have requested it of you before. It just kind of smells like, "Do as I say and not as I do". 

The other issue that I struggle with is the assumption that because someone _says _that have done something, they have done it well. The OP could be the best dog owner in the history of the world, or the worst. None of us know. So to base encouragement of a particular action on someone's subjective labeling of their past effort is irresponsible. Selzer, one of the details that help form your success with raising littermates is the fact that you have kennel runs and you rotate dogs in and out of your home to limit their face to face interaction. You have said before that you have bitches that would happily kill each other. You put them in kennels to keep that from happening. Does the OP here have kennels in her yard that will afford her the same ability? Unless you know the details that so often make the difference between success and failure with this stuff, it is irresponsible to encourage someone to do something that so often causes problems when other people have done it.

And when people are irresponsible with the choices they make regarding their animals, you know who most often suffers for it? The animals. Certainly not the anonymous person posting encouragement on an internet BB.

I am really sorry if you feel that I am singling you out here. I am not. Your posts were convenient to this discussion. And you are the only breeder that posts a lot that holds some of these ideas out there for public consumption. I know you can get a little prickly and defensive at times. There is no need to do so now.
Sheilah


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

blackshep said:


> Even thinking about when I first got my puppy is exhausting! lol
> 
> There's NO WAY I'd get two puppies together. Holy Hannah, I was totally overwhelmed by my current pup when I got her, who celebrates her first birthday on the 28th of this month. I love her dearly, but she was really a handful as a wee pup, I cannot imagine going through that with two to try and manage!


And that is totally your choice.  I don't think anyone is advocating someone must get two puppies at once. 

However grown adults, who have experience, should be able to make the choice of getting two without getting jumped upon by the "one puppy only" crowd around here.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

OP, if you are still reading this, I hope you look at the fact that the "one puppy only" crowd is A) in the majority and, B) comes from many, many decades of collective experience. 
Sheilah


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

sit said:


> Does the OP here have kennels in her yard that will afford her the same ability? Unless you know the details that so often make the difference between success and failure with this stuff, it is irresponsible to encourage someone to do something that so often causes problems when other people have done it.
> 
> And when people are irresponsible with the choices they make regarding their animals, you know who most often suffers for it?


OMG is it really any of your business to judge what is or is not a responsible choice? Really? You know better than everyone?  Just Wow!


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

sit said:


> OP, if you are still reading this, I hope you look at the fact that the "one puppy only" crowd is A) in the majority and, B) comes from many, many decades of collective experience.
> Sheilah


OP please remember that while they might be the loudest and most obnoxious here on this board. They are not the majority in real life... More people own multiple dogs than singles. In fact I've met very few people that have only dogs.... and there are many, many decades of collective experience on both sides of this issue.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

sit said:


> This is not directed at any one person, although, selzer, your comments I quoted above highlight the issue nicely. So I will use your comments only because they are conveniently right here, and not because you are the only person in the history of the internet to do this.
> 
> Here is what I don't understand: you say "*I have NEVER sold two puppies to the same person*". And yet, you will often comment here that you have raised littermates together, and tell people asking for advice on the subject:
> _It can be done. Most of my dogs were littermates.
> ...


Sheilah, This is directed at you, because your post is suggesting that I am not the same person in person than I am on this board. My name, which I am prickly about is my name. I have a lot to actually lose as reputation does make a difference in this business. And yet a few of us breeders are not hiding behind cutesy names, our names and locations are right there for God and everyone to see. 

I have had a few people _toy_ with the idea of getting two. Never a question when they came to look, but when they see them playing they think it is so cute and they think that maybe they should take two of them. This is something a tend to discourage because in my opinion that is a spur of the moment decision, and usually saying that house training will be a lot tougher when you are trying to carry two outside at the same time, dissuades them. 

I have only been asked 1 time to sell two bitch pups out of the same litter to someone. I declined selling her any puppy because I checked around and found out she was notorious in the area and not in a good way. 

There was a time when Arwen, Dubya, Babs, Jenna, Rushie, Heidi, Whitney, and Tori all ran around together at my place. I find it easier now to limit interactions between them, as I have a couple that like to scrap, and I have a few that were not raised here from a puppy, and they are all intact females. Be that as it may be. 

I don't know if I did it well or not, but I put CGCs and Titles on six different youngsters in the same year. So I figure that means I must not be a total idiot when it comes to my dogs. Currently 8 of my dogs are titled, some have multiple titles, and 9 have passed their CGC.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Babs and Jenna are littermates
Heidi, Whitney and Tori were littermates
Milla and Ninja are littermates
Joy was with littermates up through six months
Bear and Dolly are littermates

I guess the thing is, I think people respond better to, "It can be done (because it can be), and then pointing out some of the things to consider, then just saying, "Uhg! that will ruin the dog! it's 10 times the work! Why! The dogs won't bond to you! How stupid! You will be sorry!" 

It is the same with the should-I-breed-my-dog threads. When the reaction is "Ewww! you are a horrible puppy miller to even think about it!" the average Joe will just write that person off as a nutcase. But when you approach it less abrasively, helpfully answering their questions, sometimes you can say something that will give them pause that gets below the radar and doesn't shoot up the wall. 

These people already raised littermates to age 12/13. They can probably do a fine job of it again. And it is kind of insulting to suggest otherwise.

I have runs, yes. But I do not have as much time to devote to the training and socializing to the individual pups. So I have to manage with a lot less, because I have more dogs. It is a wash. I think someone with just two puppies could probably have a lot easier time raising them together than I can.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

selzer said:


> I guess the thing is, I think people respond better to, "It can be done (because it can be), and then pointing out some of the things to consider, then just saying, "Uhg! that will ruin the dog! it's 10 times the work! Why! The dogs won't bond to you! How stupid! You will be sorry!"
> 
> These people already raised littermates to age 12/13. They can probably do a fine job of it again. And it is kind of insulting to suggest otherwise.


Thank you, you said it much much better than I did. This is exactly it!! 

:thumbup:


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