# Another dog shot



## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

First this is not to be a LEO bashing thread. And I hope some of the LEO on the board will jump in with ideas as well. What I hope this to be is a discussion on what we, as dog owners, can do to protect our dogs, whether it be containment, education, new policies, all of the above or other ideas. 

Smyrna man says cops wrongfully shot, killed dog | www.wsbtv.com

_Video at the link also_

SMYRNA, Ga. — A Cobb County man says officers fatally shot his dog while responding to an alarm call at his house.
Smyrna resident Robby King said he's torn apart by what happened at his home Sunday afternoon.
"I heard 'pop, pop' and I screamed out , 'Oh, God please don't shoot my dog, and walked to the door and he's just laying there gasping for breath," King told Channel 2's Erin Coleman.
Luke, King's 6-year-old chocolate Lab, was shot by police, when Cobb officers reported to his home after he accidentally triggered his alarm. King said he was in a rush, on his way to a hospital to see his first grandchild being born. While he was on the phone with his alarm company, he said he couldn't remember his password.
"I told her I'll just wait here at the front door and when Cobb County shows up and give them my ID let them know I'm the homeowner it was a false alarm," King said.
But officers came to the back door, which was unlocked, and they opened it. That's when Luke started barking. According to a police report, the dog chased one of the officers into the yard.

"He didn't try to bite the guy; the guy admitted that. (Luke) was just the most gentle animal you could ever meet," added the grieving pet owner, who plans to file a formal complaint against Cobb police.
Cobb police, meanwhile, said officers followed protocol and the case is closed.
King also told Channel 2 that officers need additional training when it comes to dealing with animals.

"I had to watch him bleed to death and gasp for air, and they just stood there looking at me like I was stupid," he said.

Coleman said a witness is documented, saying the dog bit her in the past, but she told Coleman the statement was untrue.


----------



## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

On this one I have to say the home owner new the police were coming-he should have put the dog up.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Yup, if you think the police are going to take a chance on a charging dog you got another thing coming. The dog did what it was supposed to do, the police what they were supposed to do. Sometimes bad things happen.


----------



## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

Have to agree with Patchon...


----------



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Hmmm... tough call! He might have known the police were coming, but might NOT have known the police would enter his home from the back door. I have to admit that if I were in a similar situation, I certainly would have thought my pet was safe inside my house. Though, to be fair- I'd also have my dog inside, while I was sitting outside on my front porch waiting for the police to arrive.

Really tough call! For me, having my dog inside _is_ "putting my dog up."


----------



## Mr & Mrs Kirkley (Mar 9, 2012)

Not the owner's fault. The dog was inside his home and he was waiting at the front door. The officer had no idea the charging dog was friendly. This is why I don't like security systems.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

But...leash the dog?? Put it in the bedroom?

It's a huge blind spot with owners, they know their dog is not mean or aggressive so assume others will know the same.
And that's a huge assumption.


----------



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I completely disagree, msvette2u. I don't think the owner's opinion of his dog's aggressiveness is even relevant. What is relevant, in my mind, is that the owner and dog were inside waiting for the police to arrive. The police entered in a way the owner didn't anticipate. There's no chance I'd think about leashing my dog when I was waiting for the police. Why the heck would I if she's safe in my house?

(Though this thread may make me change my opinion.)


----------



## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

Why did the police come to the back door and just open it? Years ago, I was babysitting for a friend. One of her kids accidentally set of their alarm. The company called and of course, I did not know the password. The police were sent. The cop came to the FRONT door and talked to me and checked my ID. 

Police dispatch should have been on the phone with the alarm company. Dispatch should have then already radioed to the responding officers that the homeowner was on scene and would meet them at the front of the house as it was a false alarm.


----------



## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

How do the cops know that it was the owner that tripped the alarm and not a robber/murderer/thief?

That is why they entered the back door.

Owner should have kenneled the dog or put it in the room. Sad, but the cops followed policy. You have no idea how many dogs get "sicked" on cops every day in low income neighborhoods.


----------



## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

DharmasMom said:


> Why did the police come to the back door and just open it? Years ago, I was babysitting for a friend. One of her kids accidentally set of their alarm. The company called and of course, I did not know the password. The police were sent. The cop came to the FRONT door and talked to me and checked my ID.
> 
> Police dispatch should have been on the phone with the alarm company. Dispatch should have then already radioed to the responding officers that the homeowner was on scene and would meet them at the front of the house as it was a false alarm.



You keep saying "should have" done ______. Have you read the penal code/ been through the police academy/know police protocol?

Because these "should haves" are your opinion and do not correspond with protocol.

Every robber that breaks in pretends to be the homeowner.


----------



## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

DharmasMom said:


> Police dispatch should have been on the phone with the alarm company. Dispatch should have then already radioed to the responding officers that the homeowner was on scene and would meet them at the front of the house as it was a false alarm.


I also thought this but forgot to mention it in my first post. What if the police had thought that he was the intruder and shot him??


----------



## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

The cops know it was the owner because the alarm company would have already been talking to the homeowner on the phone. A burglar wouldn't have answered the phone when they called back.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> There's no chance I'd think about leashing my dog when I was waiting for the police. Why the heck would I if she's safe in my house?


If your dog has a reliable "sit/stay" then that's fine. 

But I can guarantee I'm gonna toss a dog into a bedroom and shut the door if I ever thing a cop or sheriff is going to show up at any of my doors!

In the owner's defense he was distracted by the birth of grandchild. 
If the dog had stood there wagging it's tail I'm sure he'd still be alive.



> "should have"


There's more than enough of these to go around on the owner's part, the police, the alarm company and the dispatchers.


----------



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

msvette2u said:


> But I can guarantee I'm gonna toss a dog into a bedroom and shut the door if I ever thing a cop or sheriff is going to show up at any of my doors!


But if the cops are going to come to the back door and walk right in, how do you know they wouldn't come to a bedroom window and climb in?


----------



## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

DharmasMom said:


> The cops know it was the owner because the alarm company would have already been talking to the homeowner on the phone. A burglar wouldn't have answered the phone when they called back.



And you know this how? Are you a burglar? Or do you work for the alarm company and know only owners answer?

Sorry, not trying to make you look stupid, just show you all of the assumptions you are making.

If your husband was a cop like mine, you would want him to be on his toes at all times.


----------



## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> You keep saying "should have" done ______. Have you read the penal code/ been through the police academy/know police protocol?
> 
> Because these "should haves" are your opinion and do not correspond with protocol.
> 
> Every robber that breaks in pretends to be the homeowner.



Like I said, I HAD this situation happen. The alarm company called me back. When I didn't know the password, the woman from the company told me- "well, protocol says I have to send the police". I said "fine, no problem"

The police then came to the FRONT door. The didn't try to sneak in the back. 

I also KNOW that it is the dispatcher's job to keep the police informed because one of my best friends is a dispatcher. She has been for over 10 years. Quite a few of my other friends are as well. Several of my friends are cops. The dispatcher's job is to give them as much info as possible. The alarm company talks to dispatch and dispatch talks to the police. 

If they are going there just to confirm it is the homeowner, why would they sneak in the back. If they hadn't encountered the dog, would they have drawn down on the homeowner, made him get down on the floor until he could "prove" who he was?


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

wildo said:


> But if the cops are going to come to the back door and walk right in, how do you know they wouldn't come to a bedroom window and climb in?


Ah, then there's the ever trusty leash  
Or, ever hear of a crate? Granted some folks haven't...btw, if we were headed out for the evening, our dogs would already _be_ in crates.

I mean why would they climb into a bedroom window when the doors were there an apparently open?? 
I believe most officers responding to the call would go in the doors as opposed to windows or even wasting time to see if they could actually get in the window.

Also - why does this guy have an alarm in the first place since his dog does such a terrific job of guarding the place? No need to answer. I know some folks just like having them. I figure our alarm system is paid for with a bunch of kibble every month 



> The police then came to the FRONT door. The didn't try to sneak in the back.


How do you know they were sneaking in? Do you know the floor plan of this home??

Our floor plan is such that our "back door" is on the left side of the house and the "front door" is on the right, in the living room.
People coming to our home don't generally distinguish between the "front" and "back: doors since the "back door" is not in the back of the house. 
Unless you know this guy's floor plan then you don't really know they were "sneaking in" anywhere.


----------



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> And you know this how? Are you a burglar? Or do you work for the alarm company and know only owners answer?


Are you a burglar? Do you work for an alarm company and know only the owners answer? Sounds like your making just as many assumptions as anyone else.


----------



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

msvette2u said:


> Ah, then there's the ever trusty leash
> Or, ever hear of a crate? Granted some folks haven't...btw, if we were headed out for the evening, our dogs would already _be_ in crates.
> 
> I mean why would they climb into a bedroom window when the doors were there an apparently open??
> ...


Honestly, I don't understand the sarcasm. I wasn't being sarcastic in my response to you. I do consider my house a safe place for my dog. And I would not expect police to walk right in. Clearly the owner didn't either... I don't see the owner as doing anything wrong (other than forgetting his own password).


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Because you seem to be throwing up hypotheticals and we could throw up hypotheticals for the next 10 yrs on this ONE subject.
It gets old. No cops that I know of IRL or even on TV climb in windows as opposed to going in a door.
I mean seriously. Why would they put themselves in such a vulnerable position?


----------



## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

You may not expect the police to walk in wildo, but they will if your alarm goes off and you don't know the password.

That is their job. To protect you. 

So take this as a learning experience and put your dog in a room if your alarm goes off and you can't remember your password.


----------



## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

wildo said:


> I do consider my house a safe place for my dog. And I would not expect police to walk right in. Clearly the owner didn't either... I don't see the owner as doing anything wrong (other than forgetting his own password).


I completely agree.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Willy has a point. For me, putting my dog in the back yard (if someone is coming to my house or to my front door) or inside the house (if someone is entering my back yard) is "putting my dog up". I'd be in trouble because honestly, I see it as my DOG'S job to prevent someone from waltzing in my back door, that's why half the time the back door is not even locked. The dog alerts me that someone is there, and anyone who doesn't *live* in my house does not just walk in through the door. If a person at my door should come in, then I put the dog outside and invite the person in. Granted, if I knew a *cop* was coming over I'd probably go a step further and crate my dog as a precaution (mostly based on these recent threads...and i'm not saying the cops are/were wrong but it is what it is....), but say the Comcast tech is coming over, I "put my dogs up" outside, I don't crate them if I don't have to and I don't leash them to me while I have strangers inside my house or going in/out my front door. As far as I know there is no local code that requires me to crate my dog inside my house during certain circumstances or use a leash other than the 6' leash law in public. I understand that sometimes police protocol might supersede my rights and how I handle my property (dog) but for the sake of this thread I can honestly say that I've never thought to crate my dog or leash my dog or put him in a stay somewhere when a stranger comes to the door I just put him in the house or outside the house depending on where we humans need to be without dogs in the way.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Agreed. If your own house is not a safe place anymore, then whats the point...


----------



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

msvette2u- my only point was that, for me, the police just walking in the back door absolutely _was_ a hypothetical. I had no idea that this would or could happen. Seems like a over the top reaction to me. I could see someone standing guard in case burglar tried to escape out the back, but just walking right in? That's a new one on me. That's all I meant. Seems like an over-reaction from the police.


----------



## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> And you know this how? Are you a burglar? Or do you work for the alarm company and know only owners answer?
> 
> Sorry, not trying to make you look stupid, just show you all of the assumptions you are making.
> 
> If your husband was a cop like mine, you would want him to be on his toes at all times.



I'm not married but my father was a cop for 32 years before he retired. 

You are not making me look stupid but I have noticed you will always defend what the police do. I am realistic to know that they will sometimes make mistakes. They are people too. I think this time they did. They should have gone to the front door. 

Yes, I consider it sneaking. The homeowner was waiting for them at the front door. They, for some reason, came to the back door. They then let them selves in UNANNOUNCED. I call that sneaking. The homeowner apparently didn't even know they were there until the one shot his dog. 

Again, I am really curious what they would have done if they had not encountered the dog. If they would have just waltzed through the house and then drawn down on the homeowner. It seems like they were a bit squirrely to me.


----------



## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

I knew this would turn into yet ANOTHER cop-bashing thread. Twyla, I think you knew it, too.

The homeowner's story has holes in it...
1. I have NEVER "forgotten" my alarm code.
2. Cops entering via back door - doesn't make sense, UNLESS they weren't made aware the homeowner "forgot" his code & was awaiting their arrival in the house. My bet is the cops didn't get that info. And that's IF we believe the homeowner's story they entered thru the back. If it's a simple alarm break & "I forgot my code" - they would've gone to the front. And the dummy should've been awaiting their arrival.
3. Alarm company SHOULD have been on the phone with Joe Homeowner as the cops arrived. (at 2am, I was called to work cause our alarm had sounded. Alarm company had dispatched the cops & told me to call them upon my arrival. I did so.)
4. I have an employee with a black lab that thinks it's a siberian tiger - has attacked/bitten 5 people that I know of. Doesn't matter the breed - cops have to be aware that some dogs bite. Our postman was bitten by my next door neighbor's barking slipper. Some dogs bite!

I wonder if we'll ever see a story here about a cop shooting a dog that doesn't turn out like this (& countless other) threads. Seems it's always the cops' fault, never the dog's owners. Unfortunately, the dog pays the price for a stupid owner.


----------



## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

Actually, many times I blame the owners. 

As for forgetting his password. I can see that happening in the excitement of trying to get to the hospital for his first grandchild. Esp if he hasn't had to use it in a while. Heck, one day I was getting off work and totally forgot the combination to my locker. That is after having the SAME FREAKING combination for 3 years. AND I had just used it that morning. But I couldn't remember it. I suddenly wanted to use an old combination from an old job. Someone had to come cut my lock off so I could go home.

I do wonder if the cops got the right info from their dispatch or if they just decided to get a little squirrely. 

And the "dummy" was awaiting their arrival. By the front door. That was where he was expecting them to show up.


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

It's very obvious that unless you are a cop or you are married to someone who is, then you have no authority to respond to this subject. Oh well. I guess I'll just have to keep my dog locked up all the time for fear of the cops coming through my back door to shoot him. 

I personally don't need to be a cop or be married to one to know that they can and will screw up on occasion.


----------



## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

Olivers mama said:


> I knew this would turn into yet ANOTHER cop-bashing thread. Twyla, I think you knew it, too.
> 
> The homeowner's story has holes in it...
> 1. I have NEVER "forgotten" my alarm code.
> ...


Yes, yes, and yes! :thumbup:


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> My bet is the cops didn't get that info.


Mine too. They wanted the element of surprise if they "sneaked" in.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> 1. I have NEVER "forgotten" my alarm code.


So you have never forgotten anything at all? 

I forgot my pin code for the debit card. One moment I had it, the next moment it was gone and I couldn't remember it even if my life had depended on it. 

Just because you never forgot it, doesn't mean others can't.


----------



## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

So even if they didn't get that info, it is NOT the owner's fault. The owner was doing what he was supposed to be doing. The dog was where he was supposed to be- in the house. The police are then doing what they are supposed to be doing just based on bad info.

It is tragic thing and it needs to be investigated to see where the breakdown happened. I would be LIVID if my dog got shot because someone else failed to do their job properly.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

There are so many missing pieces and possible miscommunications on this story.

1) Wouldn't you be standing where you could see the police pull in so you know they are there?
2) Were the police notified that it was the homeowner? Or does that not matter since he didn't know his password so it could be anyone on the phone?
3) I can't blame the homeowner for not having his dog locked up further. He was waiting for the police and they entered from another door. Again...where did they park?

We can all play quarterback here, even those with boyfriends who are police, but in the end we weren't there and don't have enough details to form an educated opinion.


----------



## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

I don't think a locker combination or a debit card pin is as important as an alarm code for your own home... And yes, I've forgotten less important info. Just never the code to get into or out of my home. 

And if the "dummy" WAS waiting at the front door for the cops (his story) - he didn't know the cops had arrived & were going around to the back? Just doesn't make sense.

And yet (his story) was that the BACK door was left unlocked! While he stood at the front?  And then the nasty cops SNUCK in thru the back?

Naw - too many holes.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Twyla said:


> *First this is not to be a LEO bashing thread. * And I hope some of the LEO on the board will jump in with ideas as well. *What I hope this to be is a discussion on what we, as dog owners, can do to protect our dogs, whether it be containment, education, new policies, all of the above or other ideas. *


I think the first thing we can do to protect our dogs is not assume they are safe inside. Given this information, I would make sure to contain my dogs in a way that they could never be perceived as a threat which would be on in a crate or a bedroom where you could be reasonably sure the LEO would not enter.

I would also make sure to tell the dispatcher I had a dog. However, many homeowners are not in touch with the real personality of their dog. Pookie would NEVER, EVER bite anyone except for those 6 times... So just letting the police know there is a dog would be sufficient to let them prepare themselves.

I think we need better education on how to handle dogs. There seems to be an awful lot of dogs being shot under questionable circumstances. Maybe a push for a higher education among LEO's is the place to really start.

For those of you with an alarm system, are you asked if you have any animals when you fill out your information?


----------



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Olivers mama said:


> And yet (his story) was that the BACK door was left unlocked! While he stood at the front?


I'm in my house right now- very near the front door even. And my back door is unlocked. I'm not sure why you have an issue with that part of the story.

I do agree with many about this though: I also wondered why the guy didn't see the police drive up. Perhaps they parked a house away? Perhaps they pulled into the driveway with their lights off? Perhaps he wasn't looking out the window at the moment they arrived? I don't know. I do think it's curious he didn't know they were there.

In the end, like I said initially- my dog would be inside, and I would be outside on the front porch waiting.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

wildo said:


> I'm in my house right now- very near the front door even. And my back door is unlocked. I'm not sure why you have an issue with that part of the story.


My issue with that part of the story is that once you set the alarm, you have a short period of time to get out and lock the door. Enough time to go back in and turn off the alarm if you need to

Understand the excitement of meeting the new grandbaby but locking the doors should be second nature at some point. The back door being unlocked may have triggered the alarm to begin with.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> We can all play quarterback here, even those with boyfriends who are police, but in the end *we weren't there and don't have enough details to form an educated opinion.*


Since when has that ever stopped us from forming opinions?? 

Things are so strange in this world right now, that the cops would have to assume the homeowner was the thief and yes, had told dispatch or whomever he called that he simply forgot the code, they may actually see this a lot?

My daughter lives in Cali and was trying to find a place to rent. 
There's people who will go to empty homes (homes for sale or rent) and show them as if they are the manager, take your money, you go to move in and lo and behold, there's someone already living there, through the legitimate agency and manager.

That's scary! If people can dream up this scheme, then they can dream up a rinky dink story about how they "forgot the alarm code" and manage to rob the place with police standing right there, I'm sure.


----------



## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

Olivers mama said:


> I don't think a locker combination or a debit card pin is as important as an alarm code for your own home... And yes, I've forgotten less important info. Just never the code to get into or out of my home.
> 
> And if the "dummy" WAS waiting at the front door for the cops (his story) - he didn't know the cops had arrived & were going around to the back? Just doesn't make sense.
> 
> ...



If he hadn't needed to use the password in awhile he could easily have forgotten it, esp in his excitement. My point was people DO forget things. If you have never done this, it must be nice.

The time I had to wait for the police, we waited on the front porch. If the police had parked somewhere else and went to the back door... I NEVER would have known they were there. They would have scared the bejesus out of me if they had done that. Heartattack, right then and there.

My back door is unlocked all the time during the day because I am letting the dogs in and out all the time. The only time it is locked is when I leave or go to bed. It is unlocked right now.

The only question I have is WHY did the cops go to the back door? Bad info? No info? Trying to grandstand? SOMEONE screwed up and the dog paid the price.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

wildo said:


> I'm in my house right now- very near the front door even. And my back door is unlocked. I'm not sure why you have an issue with that part of the story.
> 
> I do agree with many about this though: I also wondered why the guy didn't see the police drive up. Perhaps they parked a house away? Perhaps they pulled into the driveway with their lights off? Perhaps he wasn't looking out the window at the moment they arrived? I don't know. I do think it's curious he didn't know they were there.
> 
> In the end, like I said initially- my dog would be inside, and I would be outside on the front porch waiting.


Maybe because they did not have the sirenes on?

First of all, how old is the guy? He may have impaired hearing and vision. Secondly, depending on the location you may not see when somebody is driving up, they might have been a lot faster than he expected them to be. 

Third, we don't know what his floorplan is, what his home looks like, where he lives. We can only make assumptions off of our home but there are a lot of different areas, lots of different places. We don't even know how large his home is. When somebody is at the backdoor of my parents place, I wouldn't know that because the house is big and the walls are not paper thin. Heck, I wouldn't even know if anyone was on the porch or at the frontdoor when I was in my room. I wouldn't see anyone pulling up either


----------



## jang (May 1, 2011)

I think if I knew the cops were coming I would put my gsd in his crate..Why ask for trouble! I wouldn't want the cops to think Sib was an aggressive and note that for a later date...I just think better safe than sorry...Too bad for the guy though, and I'll bet the LEO doesn't feel good about what happened either..Sad story on every angle..


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

DharmasMom said:


> The only question I have is WHY did the cops go to the back door? Bad info? No info? Trying to grandstand? SOMEONE screwed up and the dog paid the price.


I think it makes sense that they went to the back door. You have an intruder, possibly the homeowner but you don't know...do you knock on the front door and ask? Or do you enter assuming the worse?

If I'm an LEO, I'm going to assume the worse and not knock to notify the potential criminal that I'm there.


----------



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Jax08 said:


> My issue with that part of the story is that once you set the alarm, you have a short period of time to get out and lock the door. Enough time to go back in and turn off the alarm if you need to
> 
> Understand the excitement of meeting the new grandbaby but locking the doors should be second nature at some point. The back door being unlocked may have triggered the alarm to begin with.


Oh, I see where you guys are coming from. Because he had an alarm system, you'd expect the door locks to be tied into that system. So how could the alarm be armed in the first place if the back door wasn't locked... Gotchya.

However, there are plenty of alarm systems that don't tie into the state of the door lock itself. I built a simple magnetic reed switch operated alarm system when I was 10ish that triggered on the state of the door. So not all alarm systems have the functionality you may be thinking about (if I'm understanding you correctly)


----------



## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

Moral of the story- we are dog owners- it is our job to protect our dogs and use common sense. No, just because your dog is inside your house, does not mean it is safe. No, just because your dog is in your yard, does not mean it is safe. Sad, but true. Sometimes some situations just can't be avoided, but if you know the police are in your neighborhood, bring the dogs in. If you *know* they are going to show up at your house, for God's sake, put the dog away. While I do think most officers are to quick to the pull the trigger on a dog due to lack of training on this topic, most of them have no idea how to tell the difference between an "alert" bark and an "I'm going to rip you a new *******" bark. They can't read a dogs body language and have no idea if said dog will charge and stop within a few feet, or if said dog will keep on coming and administer a healthy bite. 

Whether we like it or not, whether we think it's fair or not, the responsibility lays with us-the dog owners- to keep them safe.


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

PatchonGSD said:


> Moral of the story- we are dog owners- it is our job to protect our dogs and use common sense. No, just because your dog is inside your house, does not mean it is safe. No, just because your dog is in your yard, does not mean it is safe. Sad, but true. Sometimes some situations just can't be avoided, but if you know the police are in your neighborhood, bring the dogs in. If you *know* they are going to show up at your house, for God's sake, put the dog away. While I do think most officers are to quick to the pull the trigger on a dog due to lack of training on this topic, most of them have no idea how to tell the difference between an "alert" bark and an "I'm going to rip you a new *******" bark. They can't read a dogs body language and have no idea if said dog will charge and stop within a few feet, or if said dog will keep on coming and administer a healthy bite.
> 
> Whether we like it or not, whether we think it's fair or not, the responsibility lays with us-the dog owners- to keep them safe.


I agree with this, but I think the concept that our own pets aren't safe in our own houses or yards is ridiculous.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

GatorDog said:


> I agree with this, but I think the concept that our own pets aren't safe in our own houses or yards is ridiculous.


This, because if they are not safe, then we are not safe either.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

wildo said:


> Oh, I see where you guys are coming from. Because he had an alarm system, you'd expect the door locks to be tied into that system. So how could the alarm be armed in the first place if the back door wasn't locked... Gotchya.


nooo...you don't got me. You can arm the alarm and you have a few minutes to get out of the house THROUGH a door. After that time period, if the door is not locked, the alarm goes off. My sister's alarm system works just that way...with the door locks being tied into the alarm system.

Since all of us are assuming what may have happened, including you, I"m not sure why you are giving me attitude when I have never given you any. I simply stated a possible scenario.


----------



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Attitude? Sorry pal, I simply asked for clarification on what you meant about the state of the door lock. I have built an alarm system. The system wasn't aware of the door lock state. I make no assumption that the guy in this article had a similar system.

...And so I asked about clarification on what you were talking about. There's no attitude here.


----------



## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

Mrs.K said:


> This, because if they are not safe, then we are not safe either.


You are right, we _arent_ safe either....


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

wildo said:


> Attitude? Sorry pal, I simply asked for clarification on what you meant about the state of the door lock. I have built an alarm system. The system wasn't aware of the door lock state. I make no assumption that the guy in this article had a similar system.
> 
> ...And so I asked about clarification on what you were talking about. There's no attitude here.





> ... Gotchya.


That is asking for clarification? My name isn't "pal". I guess that's a personal pet peeve and maybe I"m the only one that finds that condescending.


----------



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Yeah- it was clarification. Because I've never heard of such a system that triggers off of the state of the lock itself. And so I asked for clarification (though it was phrased as a situation rather than a question). Either way, there was no attitude. You'll have to seek out condescension elsewhere, but cause I wasn't offering any. Just trying to understand your point of view. And note my use of a pronoun, not a proper noun. I didn't say your name was "pal" (or *P*al).


----------



## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

Willy - I have an issue with the unlocked back door cause it doesn't make sense. The guy's ready to go out, but has to await the cops. If it were me, all doors except the front would be closed & locked. Same for the windows. I'd be waiting at the front with an eye out for the cops.

Instead, there's this guy - with his house wide open - who's 'forgotten' his code - awaiting cops he never sees until they 'sneak' thru his back door?

I'm just sayin' - doesn't make sense.


----------



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Thanks for the clarification, Olivers_mama. I just wasn't making the connection. There are a lot of people who simply don't lock their doors at all. Maybe the guy felt safe enough with his alarm system (which he clearly uses) and his dog- to the point he didn't feel the need to lock it. Or maybe he just forgot that day. Who knows... Thanks for clarifying though; I wasn't making the connection.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Olivers mama said:


> I have an issue with the unlocked back door cause it doesn't make sense. The guy's ready to go out, but has to await the cops. If it were me, all doors except the front would be closed & locked. Same for the windows. I'd be waiting at the front with an eye out for the cops.
> 
> Instead, there's this guy - with his house wide open - who's 'forgotten' his code - awaiting cops he never sees until they 'sneak' thru his back door?
> 
> I'm just sayin' - doesn't make sense.


It doesn't make sense to me either. Not that I am in any way justifying the death of this dog. I would be furious if that were my dog. However, if you take 30 seconds and try to put yourself in the shoes of the LEO then it's a safe assumption that you can't assume anything. That's a good way for them to get killed.


----------



## Alyalanna (May 28, 2011)

I've seen both types of alarm systems that Jax08 and Wildo are describing. When I was a key holder for a Barnes and Noble the alarm system was similar to the type that Wildo is describing. In fact, I would unlock the door the door, pull my keys out, and then get ready to make the dash to the alarm. Our alarm was motion activated so the countdown didn't begin until I actually opened the door. However, a friend of mine had a very sophisticated system that could actually tell if the doors were locked (and I think it could tell about the windows on the first floor too). Of course, we can't know which system the guy in the article had but I do think it is weird that the act of going to the alarm upon entering or leaving wasn't just second nature even under the circumstances of the excitement of his grandchild being born.

Was the owner at fault for not putting his dog up? I'd say it is a toss up. What frightens me is that my dog, a lab, doesn't even have a crate. So Bru is obviously left out at all times whether I am home or not. I don't have an alarm system but if I did, what would happen if I wasn't home and the alarm was tripped and let's assume it was a false alarm. Would Bru be shot when the police entered my house? This is very much a rhetorical question but one that I thought of when reading this article and the comments that followed.


----------



## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

He could have forgotten the door wasn't locked. Or maybe he just doesn't lock his back door. Or maybe he just hadn't got around to locking yet but planned to before he actually left the house. Sometimes locking my back door is the VERY last thing I do before I leave my house. Who knows? 

As for the police entering the back door, if they have been giving the correct info, I do not see why they would have done it. I can understand if they were going to an "empty" house with an alarm sounding but the house wasn't and they should have been told that. With the alarm company on the phone with the homeowner they should have gone to the front door. Even, hypothetically, if he is not the real homeowner, they would have asked for ID. If he couldn't have produced ID or was acting suspicious they could have arrested him then- provided of course, that an intruder is going to wait for the police to show up.


----------



## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

Olivers mama said:


> Willy - I have an issue with the unlocked back door cause it doesn't make sense. The guy's ready to go out, but has to await the cops. If it were me, all doors except the front would be closed & locked. Same for the windows. I'd be waiting at the front with an eye out for the cops.
> 
> Instead, there's this guy - with his house wide open - who's 'forgotten' his code - awaiting cops he never sees until they 'sneak' thru his back door?
> 
> I'm just sayin' - doesn't make sense.


I've left my back door unlocked before. It happens, and I'm normally very annal about keeping the doors locked.

And forgetting his password, I can see that too. The password that you enter to set/disarm your alarm system is a different password that you use for verbal confirmation to the alarm company. I've had to use mine twice in 10 years. My alarm system would not go off if I left a door unlocked, the alarm needs to be set, then the door opened for the alarm to trigger.

Seeing the video you can see why they came to the back door. This is where it appears his garage is, and I'm betting that is where they parked.


The whole story is sad. The dog owner did not do anything wrong. He followed the instructions that he gave to the alarm company. It was reasonable for him to expect that his dog was safe inside his house. I make that assumption every day, if I'm home or not.


----------



## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

No harm, no foul Willy!

BTW - since I live Cawazy Calif - I lock my doors just going to the mailbox!  Sometimes, it's like living in the Old West (without benefit of a sidearm).


----------



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Twyla said:


> "I heard 'pop, pop' and I screamed out , 'Oh, God please don't shoot my dog, and *walked to the door* and he's just laying there gasping for breath," King told Channel 2's Erin Coleman.
> 
> But officers came to the back door, which was unlocked, and they opened it. *That's when Luke started barking. According to a police report, the dog* *chased one of the officers into the yard.*


I wasn't there, so I really can't make any rash judgements on the entire affair. Would I have put my dog(s) up knowing the police were coming to verify I'm the owner? Most likely not. If the police were coming to investigate a crime, yes I would. 

The only part of the story that has me going "hmmmm" is the fact the home owner heard the dog barking at the back door. At that point I would have rushed to the back door (where ever it was in my house). But even after the dog had time to chase the officer into the yard and was shot ( I suspect twice by the homeowner's description) then the home owner "walked" to the back door to find his dog shot. 

I find that a bit strange.


----------



## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

Olivers mama said:


> No harm, no foul Willy!
> 
> BTW - since I live Cawazy Calif - I lock my doors just going to the mailbox!  Sometimes, it's like living in the Old West (without benefit of a sidearm).


I guess it depends on where you live. I used to leave my backdoor unlocked all the time when I would go out...until Pippa learned to open it and I came home one day to find both of the hounds outside playing and having a good ole time.   Now, I make sure it is locked to keep them IN, not someone else out.


----------



## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

Dharma - I grew up in the country - over 50 years ago. CA was nice then. I don't think we ever locked our doors. But times are-a changing! (I can picture the dogs outside playing cause the doors were unlocked/open - too funny!)


----------



## Alyalanna (May 28, 2011)

DharmasMom said:


> He could have forgotten the door wasn't locked. Or maybe he just doesn't lock his back door. Or maybe he just hadn't got around to locking yet but planned to before he actually left the house. Sometimes locking my back door is the VERY last thing I do before I leave my house. Who knows?


Or maybe he comes and goes through the back door. It all depends on where he parks his car.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

We don't lock our doors...ever. We've had a couple of weird happenings over the years, the dopers looking for the party and the ex-employee leaving a note in DH's truck in the middle of the night saying he was to sick to come to work...yeah right...and I almost let the dogs out because it scared the **** out of me, but friendly ppl won't even come to our door with Banshee. She meets everyone at the door looking like a Berserker. With the number of guns we have in our house, we really should make an effort to lock it to make it more difficult for someone to get in.


----------



## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Olivers mama said:


> I knew this would turn into yet ANOTHER cop-bashing thread. Twyla, I think you knew it, too.


Hmm as far as knowing it? I knew there was a possibility, always is with topics such as this. There will always be those that see LEO as doing no wrong, and those that see them doing all wrong. You can choose to engage in the back and forth or not. 

The purpose of the thread was as stated: how do we protect our dogs? Dogs being shot by police are on the rise or so it appears to be. That is why I had hoped the LEO here would jump in and share what the general policy is in departments, as well if a push for more education on dog behavior would accomplish anything. What, if anything we can do as the general public to change this trend. As for other members, I had hoped they would share ideas on how to protect, what they would do in cases that involved LEO.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

The general policy is probably something like "if a dog charges you in an apparent attack, and you are there performing your police duties you have the right to shoot said dog". 
Who knows?
I have shared in the past that a fellow officer pepper sprayed a dog that was going to merely jump up and put it's paws on him!
I admonished him some about it, since I inadvertently walked into the cloud a bit later, and he said "I just washed my uniform"!

The general public doesn't "get" that officers have no duty to protect or serve _dogs_; they protect and serve _humans_.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I wish some LEO's would weigh in on their ideas and what they like to see and what they are taught on how to perceive a threat from a dog.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I don't see any cop bashing yet.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I haven't read the whole thread yet. I feel really sorry for the owners, and I feel for the officers who went in and ended up shooting the dog. I am sure he did not wake up that morning thinking he would kill someone's dog today. Sad. 

We had an alarm drop on Christmas. My brother's step daughters' brats set it off. And the cops came to the front door. Knocked on the front door. We had people all over the house from babes in arms to elderly people. I think probably 28 people all told, and half of them half tanked. The police officer came in and walked with my father through the kitchen to where the alarm is on the door to where the shop is. Cujo followed in his wake. 

Cujo is a large GSD, about 86 pounds with a good set of teeth and a good bark. My parents do not own a crate. Usually they will put him in the study if someone is uncomfortable, but the house was crawling with people, everywhere, and I suppose no one but me gave the dog much thought. And I was pretty impressed with how Cujo was just following along. I think he gave up that day at being the supreme protector as the house contained more than his limit of people. His little canine brain cells probably churned out some form of, "its a party, just go with the flow."

They could not have shot Cujo without putting a lot of people, kids, babies at risk. At the same time, they came to the front door, and they gained entry the normal way. They were not sneaking in the back. I think Cujo would have reacted much different if that were the situation. 

I think the cops were trying to do their job and catch a crook. I think they were surprised by the dog, and at that point had to shoot it, because it was barking and charging -- any dog might bark and charge in that situation. I don't blame the homeowner. 

I don't know how better to protect our dogs. 

At my house, in that situation, I would put Babs behind her baby gate in the sun room -- where there is access to the back door and back fence, and wait at the front door. My dog would have been shot if the cops went to my back door because Babs would have acted like she would eat the guy, and would have full access to the back door. In my case I am ok because my drive is long, and I would know if they were there, I could call them to the front door. But still. I don't think my bedroom, or any door in my house would actually contain my dogs if I tried to put her in my bedroom or study. I use shower board to keep her in the bedroom, bath, and hallway, but she can easily jump that if she wants, it is only 48 inches tall, or she could push around it, she just never has.

Personally, I am going to work on the fact that this is news because it is extremely rare. I don't think it requires me to place blame on anyone or make a change in how I would manage my loose dog in this situation.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

PatchonGSD said:


> Moral of the story- we are dog owners- it is our job to protect our dogs and use common sense. No, just because your dog is inside your house, does not mean it is safe. No, just because your dog is in your yard, does not mean it is safe. Sad, but true. Sometimes some situations just can't be avoided, but if you know the police are in your neighborhood, bring the dogs in. If you *know* they are going to show up at your house, for God's sake, put the dog away. While I do think most officers are to quick to the pull the trigger on a dog due to lack of training on this topic,* most of them have no idea how to tell the difference between an "alert" bark and an "I'm going to rip you a new *******" bark. They can't read a dogs body language and have no idea if said dog will charge and stop within a few feet, or if said dog will keep on coming and administer a healthy bite. *
> 
> Whether we like it or not, whether we think it's fair or not, the responsibility lays with us-the dog owners- to keep them safe.


I'm not totally disagreeing here but as for the bolded section... speaking plainly, I am comfortable leaving my backdoor unlocked almost all the time *because* I know my dog will not let a random person through it. Does that mean my dog should be mowed down by a cop entering my house? Are people not allowed to own dogs that will protect their owners and their property? I don't really know this particular story (I didn't read it, to be honest) and if I knew a cop was headed my way I'd have my dog under control or locked up first but I also will not apologizing for having a well trained, well bred GSD that will *not* let Joe Blow walk through my back door without my knowledge and permission. So we can talk about how cops read dogs all day long but in my house my dog is meant to be read as "I'm going to rip you a new......" and I feel like it's really no one's business other than my family and my home owner's insurance agency (who are familiar with what dogs I own, what breeds they are, and what training they do).


----------



## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Twyla said:


> But officers came to the back door, which was unlocked, and they opened it. That's when Luke started barking. According to a police report, the dog chased one of the officers into the yard.
> 
> "He didn't try to bite the guy; the guy admitted that. (Luke) was just the most gentle animal you could ever meet," added the grieving pet owner, who plans to file a formal complaint against


My question(s) is: where is the line drawn? Does the dog just have to bark and chase or act like it will bite? If the officer is scared of dogs; will that cloud his judgement or will training take over?


----------



## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

Liesje said:


> I'm not totally disagreeing here but as for the bolded section... speaking plainly, I am comfortable leaving my backdoor unlocked almost all the time *because* I know my dog will not let a random person through it. Does that mean my dog should be mowed down by a cop entering my house? Are people not allowed to own dogs that will protect their owners and their property? I don't really know this particular story (I didn't read it, to be honest) and if I knew a cop was headed my way I'd have my dog under control or locked up first but I also will not apologizing for having a well trained, well bred GSD that will *not* let Joe Blow walk through my back door without my knowledge and permission. So we can talk about how cops read dogs all day long but in my house my dog is meant to be read as "I'm going to rip you a new......" and I feel like it's really no one's business other than my family and my home owner's insurance agency (who are familiar with what dogs I own, what breeds they are, and what training they do).


LOL well like I said, whether we like it or not (I don't) or whether we think its fair or not, (I don't) it is what it is......My point in the bold text was from the cops point of view, and a possible explanation for being so quick to shoot a dog. I dont agree with it, and I wouldnt apologize for having a dog that wouldnt let "Joe Blow" in the house either.....


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

On second thought, if I thought the police were on route to my house on an emergency alarm drop call -- the guy did not know his password, it could have been a burglar in the house, well I would have made sure of my dog whatever its breed. 

The guy should have known the police would have been in high alert, possibly dealing with a perpetrator, could be dealing with anything really. The owner probably did not give another consideration to the dog, not the way a GSD or pit owner might. So I really don't blame him. But I think if you have to point a finger at all, I think you have to point it at the owner as well as the cops, who were there because of a call on that address. If cops come to the front door all the time, burglars will always escape out the back. It really isn't that unreasonable for the cops to have gone to the back.


----------



## Shaolin (Jun 16, 2012)

Usually, at least from my experience, when an alarm company contacts 911 for an alarm like this, they are usually able to give very good pre-arrival instructions: Where the alarm is coming from, if it's an accidental activation, what type of alarm, ect. This is then relayed to the LEOs and whomever else is dispatched. I've heard on more than one occasion this phrase: "Per alarm company, occupant states there's a dog on scene. Occupant is waiting by front door." or "Per alarm company, they hear a dog in the background. Use caution."

I find it odd that the LEO went to the back door. At the same time, I can kind of understand it. Some houses have their "back" facing the road while the "front" is where the back should be. I've run into that situation many times as a Medic/Fire Fighter.

The part I really don't get is why the LEO didn't announce himself. It's completely possible that it's in protocol there where they cannot announce if they think it's an actual break in, but if the person truly was on the phone with the alarm company, I just don't see why the homeowner didn't know that they were coming through another door.

At the same time, this should be a lesson to every dog owner. I never walked into a house with a free roaming dog while on duty. It just didn't happen. It didn't matter if it was a Mini Yorkie or a Great Dane. I asked everyone to put their animal up, service dogs excluded, no questions asked. If the owner was unable or unwilling, our PD had catch poles available to them. If the dog didn't seem friendly enough to be able to be lured into a bathroom by treats (always had treats with me for this reason) the LEO used the catch pole and put the dog away.

Our house was broken into right after we moved in; someone kicked open our front door. I immediately put Finn and Cheyenne in their respective kennels and covered them. Even though we were all sitting outside, I didn't want any gesture by the dogs to be considered threatening. 

Unfortunately, we have to take extra precautions with our animals, no matter what they are. Do I think LEOs need better training when it comes to handling animals? Yes, yes I do. Do I think dog owners need to be more cautious about what they do with their animals when they know an absolute stranger is coming to their home? Absolutely.


----------



## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

Just asked the BF to verify....the second a dog charges at an innocent bystander or a cop, they can shoot it. That means, if it takes two steps to begin charging towards a person, it can (and most likely will) be shot.

This was put in place NOT to torture dogs but to protect police officers after so many bites were happening.

Good idea to teach your dog a freeze command. Mine has one. He may be the most fearful dog on the block, but he is also the most obedient.

He froze after beginning to chase a feral cat, when a jogger ran by, and when I spotted an aggressive dog begin to enter the dog park so I could leash him.

Instead of complaining on a message board about protocol that will not change (believe me!), train your dog to avoid situations like this.

No one cares more about a dog's life then a police officer getting an injury from one. Except the owner.


----------



## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

Bashing police and policy will not change it. But feel free to continue posting on a message board that won't change anything, to make you feel better.

Or you could go train your dog how to immediately freeze or stop barking or go inside when someone enters the yard or house.

But that would be too much work....it's easier to type away on a computer about how your dog isn't safe.

:O


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

While teaching your dog that command is a very good idea, I don't see how it would have worked in this situation? The owner was not near the dog so could not have given the command and the police would not have known the command and the dog would probably not have listened to them if they did. Mine probably wouldn't obey a stranger.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> Bashing police and policy will not change it. But feel free to continue posting on a message board that won't change anything, to make you feel better.
> 
> Or you could go train your dog how to immediately freeze or stop barking or go inside when someone enters the yard or house.
> 
> ...


What an irritating/miserable point of view. 

Discussing on a message board what is reasonable to expect makes all the sense in the world. 

I won't train every dog I have to immediately freeze. We train the emergency down in classes, but it really isn't my favorite game. I suppose it can work in some instances. But as for training a dog not to bark, that is clearly wrong. In fact, it is illegal to debark a pit bull or dangerous dogs in some places. You will be fined and the dog put down. I understand that you are not suggesting de-barking the dog, but it is the same. A cop who hears a dog barking is probably a lot less likely to open a door in the first place. If the dog is just quietly waiting, that does not mean the dog will not charge and will not get itself killed. 

There ought to be a law (not in a legal sense, but a moral law, it goes against nature) against training a GSD not to bark at a suspicious person. That is an alert. And a dog of excellent character will bark and should.


----------



## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

This isn't about whether or not the dog was poorly trained or not. Or whether or not the cop was right to shoot the dog. Like Jax said, that command wouldn't have done any good in this situation since the owner wasn't expecting the police to come in the back door. 

My question was, and still is, why did the police go to the back door and just enter the house? The homeowner was waiting at the front door and this should have been relayed to them from the alarm company. So where was the breakdown in communications? Or were the police just showboating? SOMEONE messed up and an investigation should be done to find out who it was.


----------



## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> Just asked the BF to verify....the second a dog charges at an innocent bystander or a cop, they can shoot it. That means, if it takes two steps to begin charging towards a person, it can (and most likely will) be shot.
> 
> This was put in place NOT to torture dogs but to protect police officers after so many bites were happening.
> 
> ...





x0emiroxy0x said:


> Bashing police and policy will not change it. But feel free to continue posting on a message board that won't change anything, to make you feel better.
> 
> Or you could go train your dog how to immediately freeze or stop barking or go inside when someone enters the yard or house.
> 
> ...


Thank you for relaying the message from your boyfriend. As well as the recommendation of the freeze command. 

However, the nastiness in your 2nd post was uncalled for.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I really don't know.

The dog is dead, nothing will bring him back.

The police responded to an alarm drop at the address and should have.

The dog barked and should have. 

This is really, really a rare occurrence. 

That is why it made the news. 

Sad.

The answer is NOT to teach your dog to go back in the house, and stop barking when there is an intruder in your yard or coming into your house.


----------



## kiya (May 3, 2010)

So basically the police can just barge into your home & shoot your dogs.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

kiya said:


> So basically the police can just barge into your home & shoot your dogs.



Hmmmm, well, I suppose a call from the security company that you employed saying something is going on within your home and to please come, does give the police some license to do something. 

If someone is being beaten up and robbed, while their dog is barking in the house, should the cops wait outside until the barking stops?

I don't really know. 

This is probably a rare occurrence because something wasn't done properly. But there are instances, like if your dog is crated, and someone is in there attacking you, that you might WANT the cops to come on in. I suppose.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

And if the police are doing their job, at your address, because they were called to be there, they should not have a dog attack them. If a dog does seem unrestrained and acting aggressively, I think a police officer is in their rights to shoot the dog.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> How do the cops know that it was the owner that tripped the alarm and not a robber/murderer/thief?
> 
> That is why they entered the back door.
> 
> Owner should have kenneled the dog or put it in the room. Sad, but the cops followed policy. You have no idea how many dogs get "sicked" on cops every day in low income neighborhoods.


 
I have million dollar homes across from me that have alarm systems that get set off quite often....the police ALWAYS go to the front door first. This makes sense because they can see if there is forced entry there, then move on to other areas of the house. I don't think I've ever seen a cop go to a back door first in an alarm situation.

I'm also thinking that the alarm company should have made the police aware that this was an accidental setting off of the alarm. And just maybe the home owner thought this is what they were suppose to do. Even if you dial 911 on accident they still have to come out to make sure.

The systems failed the homeowner....all of the systems


----------



## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

llombardo said:


> I have million dollar homes across from me that have alarm systems that get set off quite often....the police ALWAYS go to the front door first. This makes sense because they can see if there is forced entry there, then move on to other areas of the house. I don't think I've ever seen a cop go to a back door first in an alarm situation.
> 
> I'm also thinking that the alarm company should have made the police aware that this was an accidental setting off of the alarm. And just maybe the home owner thought this is what they were suppose to do. Even if you dial 911 on accident they still have to come out to make sure.
> 
> The systems failed the homeowner....all of the systems


So you are sitting outside their homes at 2am and 6am when they set them off on accident to make sure the cops go in the front door? That is highly unlikely. Police OFTEN go in the front door, especially in a million dollar neighborhood where the hood rats aren't breaking in every other day. But you can't say always.

In bad neighborhoods, the cops often go in other entries to protect themselves.


----------



## Beau (Feb 12, 2012)

I found this article while doing some personal research motivated by the previous dog shooting thread. 

Detailed Discussion - Police Shooting Pets

I think the last sentence of the article is the most important.


----------



## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

selzer said:


> What an irritating/miserable point of view.
> 
> Discussing on a message board what is reasonable to expect makes all the sense in the world.
> 
> ...



Are you serious? You think it should be illegal to teach your dog to STOP barking when it starts barking at someone that is not bad? That is nonsense. So when your new neighbor comes to say hi and the dog barks for ten minutes non-stop, that is your idea of an alert dog? That is just an idiot dog that can't perceive a threat.

I know tons of people who have a "hush" command. It is hilarious to think they would get a ticket for telling their dog to hush. 

As for my point of view being "miserable", I am quite confused. It is *miserable* to hate hearing day after day people bashing cops for doing their jobs? I think the only "miserable" thing in this situation is the people who sit around on computers all day bashing everyone and everything instead of going out and making a formal complaint or doing something that has meaning in life....but I guess some people aren't very social and have nothing to do but bash others on a computer all day since they don't have the guts to say it in real life. (And no this isn't aimed towards you)


----------



## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

selzer said:


> And if the police are doing their job, at your address, because they were called to be there, they should not have a dog attack them. If a dog does seem unrestrained and acting aggressively, I think a police officer is in their rights to shoot the dog.


Thumbs up.


----------



## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

Twyla said:


> Thank you for relaying the message from your boyfriend. As well as the recommendation of the freeze command.
> 
> However, the nastiness in your 2nd post was uncalled for.


Sorry about that. I get fed up of people on a message board talking awful about cops when I lay in bed at night EVERY night, wondering if my boyfriend will come home or will have gotten killed by some thug or hit by a drunk driver while trying to protect the same people putting him down. The generalization of cops on this message board is ridiculous. 

I get way to riled up when I read the awful things ignorant people say and how they will do anything to put cops down. And it is always the same 2-3 people on every cop thread.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> Sorry about that. I get fed up of people on a message board talking awful about cops when I lay in bed at night EVERY night, wondering if my boyfriend will come home or will have gotten killed by some thug or hit by a drunk driver while trying to protect the same people putting him down. The generalization of cops on this message board is ridiculous.
> 
> I get way to riled up when I read the awful things ignorant people say and how they will do anything to put cops down. And it is always the same 2-3 people on every cop thread.


Nobody has been bashing any police officer in this topic. The matter of fact is that since you are with a cop, you became an expert on all matters regarding cops and you take anything critical personally. 

Seriously, lighten up. Nobody is bashing cops at all in this topic. We are merely taking things with a grain of salt, and honestly, you have to because it is way too easy to actually abuse the power you gain while holding a badge and gun in your hand. 

We all respect officers. They often times have a thankless job, but they are humans too and humans are prone to errors. The "A cop can never be wrong" attitude is dangerous. Once you allow that you allow yourself to live in a police state and last I checked, we live in a democracy and not in a police riddled state where you automatically lose your rights to a badge swinging cop.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> Nobody has been bashing any police officer in this topic. The matter of fact is that since you are with a cop, you became an expert on all matters regarding cops and you take anything critical personally.
> 
> .


She's not a cop...her boyfriend is


----------



## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> I get way to riled up when I read the awful things ignorant people say and how they will do anything to put cops down. And it is always the same 2-3 people on every cop thread.


Put the anger to good use then instead of just being riled up 

Speaking for myself, I'm looking for education. Have your bf join in on this thread. Tell us what he looks for when he arrives at a home with a pet.What signals does he look for that gives him a heads up that things are about to escalate with a dog.


----------



## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

I think that there was a break down somewhere in communication, and this sadly lead to the situation at hand. If a dog is not safe in your own home then he isn't safe anywhere.







x0emiroxy0x said:


> I get way to riled up when I read the *awful things ignorant people say* and how they will do anything to put cops down. And it is always the same 2-3 people on every cop thread.



Maybe that should read "when people have a different opinion than me". You aren't the only one on this board that has experience with police officers and their matters. You constantly want to paint all police depts and their policies with the same brush, and while some things are universal, you just can't do that.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> So you are sitting outside their homes at 2am and 6am when they set them off on accident to make sure the cops go in the front door? That is highly unlikely. Police OFTEN go in the front door, especially in a million dollar neighborhood where the hood rats aren't breaking in every other day. But you can't say always.
> 
> In bad neighborhoods, the cops often go in other entries to protect themselves.


Most of these calls(in better areas) will have more then one cop, 99% of them will have two officers in bad neighborhoods. The idea and it really is common sense is that one cop will go to the front and the other will go around to the back. You know if it is actually a robbery..they have all exits covered. Everytime I have seen this happen its been during the day and a glich in the system. Everytime I seen this its two cops and yes they park down the block and approach with their guns drawn. Everytime its been a false alarm. My neighborhood is far from a million dollar neighborhood, it just has a VERY good police department. They use their brains and common sense. A much needed tool to be a good cop.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> . they don't have the guts to say it in real life. (And no this isn't aimed towards you)


This is where you are wrong...I personally will tell anyone how I feel and give my opinion in writing, on the phone, or in person. And I also think that the majority of the people here would do the same.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> Sorry about that. I get fed up of people on a message board talking awful about cops when I lay in bed at night EVERY night, wondering if my boyfriend will come home or will have gotten killed by some thug or hit by a drunk driver while trying to protect the same people putting him down. The generalization of cops on this message board is ridiculous.
> 
> I get way to riled up when I read the awful things ignorant people say and how they will do anything to put cops down. And it is always the same 2-3 people on every cop thread.


You definitely read what you want to read. I don't see where anyone said anything bad about a police officer. Everyone failed the dog on this one...

1. The owner should have been more alert, but I do understand that he was in a hurry to see his first grandchild being born, so I don't think he was thinking clearly

2. The company should have notified the police and let them know it was a false alarm and the owner of the home was waiting at the front door to show id

3. The police entered a home that a dog was barking in....now if there was a robber in the home, do you think that the dog would be barking? Either they would have killed it(like the police did), let it go, or made friends with it. If I'm a police officer and an alarm at a home has gone off..I surely would consider the fact that a dog was inside still barking..Wouldn't that be common sense? Wouldn't anybody stop and think, why is this dog barking if a robber is in the house?


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> She's not a cop...her boyfriend is


I believe that is what I said.


> that *since you are with a cop*


 Or was that wrong wording?


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

NO! Your wording is fine. It's me and my tired eyes and very poor reading skills. Sorry, Mrs. K! 

but in my defense...I'm the only one to figure out BTDT in the other thread! :rofl:


----------



## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Beau said:


> I found this article while doing some personal research motivated by the previous dog shooting thread.
> 
> Detailed Discussion - Police Shooting Pets
> 
> I think the last sentence of the article is the most important.


Thank you for locating that page. 

If I am understanding it correctly, that while it may be departmental policy on how to handle dogs, that does not mean in legal terms that is the correct way to handle dogs as seen by the courts.


----------



## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

llombardo said:


> This is where you are wrong...I personally will tell anyone how I feel and give my opinion in writing, on the phone, or in person. And I also think that the majority of the people here would do the same.



:thumbup:


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> NO! Your wording is fine. It's me and my tired eyes and very poor reading skills. Sorry, Mrs. K!
> 
> but in my defense...I'm the only one to figure out BTDT in the other thread! :rofl:



LOL, no worries. I seriously got ready for Saturdays safety driving class with the Rescue Squad only to find out that it's Wednesday and not Friday. :help::rofl::rofl::rofl: 
You are not alone, and I thought more would know BTDT.


----------



## 1sttimeforgsd (Jul 29, 2010)

Something that I have always wondered about, what if for some medical reason you passed out in your own fenced in yard, your dogs where in the yard and a neighbor called for rescue squad. The medical personel respond and because of the dogs they call for police assistance, there is a possibility that my dogs are going to be shot because they are barking at the gate. That is what they are supposed to do, that is their job but because I am passed out I cannot call the dogs back or put them away in a safe place. As far as I know the police here do not carry those dog catching things.


----------



## Beau (Feb 12, 2012)

Twyla said:


> Thank you for locating that page.
> 
> If I am understanding it correctly, that while it may be departmental policy on how to handle dogs, that does not mean in legal terms that is the correct way to handle dogs as seen by the courts.


It certainly seems to infer this. I think the conflicts stem from the lack of clarity between state and municipal laws, and federal law.

The Supreme Court doesn't seem to want to touch this issue.


----------



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

umm, maybe the owner of the dog considered his
dog was "put up" because he was indoors. he was
waiting for the police at the front door the police
went to the back door. 



PatchonGSD said:


> On this one I have to say the home owner new the police were coming-he should have put the dog up.


----------



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

the dog was inside. the owner of the dog was waiting 
at the front door.



wildo said:


> Hmmm... tough call! He might have known the police were coming, but might NOT have known the police would enter his home from the back door. I have to admit that if I were in a similar situation, I certainly would have thought my pet was safe inside my house.
> 
> >>>> Though, to be fair- I'd also have my dog inside, while I was sitting outside on my front porch waiting for the police to arrive.<<<<
> 
> Really tough call! For me, having my dog inside _is_ "putting my dog up."


----------



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Here's a thought...my back door is the first door you come to at the end of my drive. Nobody ever goes to the front door. 

When I became ill and my daughter called EMS, they came straight through the back door. They didn't knock. They didn't hesitate. She was on the phone with them much the same way this guy was on the phone with the alarm company who might have been speaking with the police department. 

My daughter had already crated the dogs.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

1sttimeforgsd said:


> Something that I have always wondered about, what if for some medical reason you passed out in your own fenced in yard, your dogs where in the yard and a neighbor called for rescue squad. The medical personel respond and because of the dogs they call for police assistance, there is a possibility that my dogs are going to be shot because they are barking at the gate. That is what they are supposed to do, that is their job but because I am passed out I cannot call the dogs back or put them away in a safe place. As far as I know the police here do not carry those dog catching things.


Right now, I'm in an EMT class and there is a lot of military in the class and also a cop. 

I've asked him about that kind of scenario. He said that they had things like that happening and what they did was luring the dog into another room with food or one cop came in from the backdoor while the other cop occupied the dog at the front door and then they worked as a team to get the dog locked in another room. 
He said, if he doesn't have to, he wouldn't shoot a dog and that some cops are just way too fast. However, if it is a life or death situation and they don't have the time than they do what they have to do. 

As for my dogs, as long as I'm concious all they will do is bark at the door but try to tell EMS "They are friendly...come on in." because they've heard that about a dozen times and probably been bit every time they heard that.


----------



## shadow mum (Apr 8, 2008)

1sttimeforgsd said:


> Something that I have always wondered about, what if for some medical reason you passed out in your own fenced in yard, your dogs where in the yard and a neighbor called for rescue squad. The medical personel respond and because of the dogs they call for police assistance, there is a possibility that my dogs are going to be shot because they are barking at the gate. That is what they are supposed to do, that is their job but because I am passed out I cannot call the dogs back or put them away in a safe place. As far as I know the police here do not carry those dog catching things.


That is how it works. I fell down on an icy sidewalk and shattered my leg last year. I had Shadow with me. Shadow went into an immediate down beside me and would growl when anyone tried to get close, doing his job. Before I would allow anyone to call an ambulance, I called my husband to have him come get Shadow, because Shadow COULD have been shot if the ambulance/police arrived and he did that.

If it comes down to a decision between human life and canine, the canine will ALWAYS lose.


----------



## Shaolin (Jun 16, 2012)

1sttimeforgsd said:


> Something that I have always wondered about, what if for some medical reason you passed out in your own fenced in yard, your dogs where in the yard and a neighbor called for rescue squad. The medical personel respond and because of the dogs they call for police assistance, there is a possibility that my dogs are going to be shot because they are barking at the gate. That is what they are supposed to do, that is their job but because I am passed out I cannot call the dogs back or put them away in a safe place. As far as I know the police here do not carry those dog catching things.


A lot of times, at least from what I've done over the years, I check to see just how friendly/easy the dogs are. I'll take the time to whistle/call to the dogs and I try to carry dog treats with me. If it looks like just redirecting the dog would be an option, or being able to lure it away, that's what we'll try to do. 

I've personally been in that particular situation. The cops in my area had catch poles in their trunks, so worst case scenario, they'd use the catch poles and either hold the dog until we can do what we need to do and they can release them, or they would wait until AC arrived on scene to take the dog, or we even had a situation where they put the dog in the squad car and took it to the station until someone came and collected the animals.

And yes, Mrs. K...I've been bitten twice by the, "Oh, he's so friendly! Come on in!" dog.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

shadow mum said:


> That is how it works. I fell down on an icy sidewalk and shattered my leg last year. I had Shadow with me. Shadow went into an immediate down beside me and would growl when anyone tried to get close, doing his job. Before I would allow anyone to call an ambulance, I called my husband to have him come get Shadow, because Shadow COULD have been shot if the ambulance/police arrived and he did that.
> 
> If it comes down to a decision between human life and canine, the canine will ALWAYS lose.


Three years ago my back went out and I couldn't get up on my own nor with the help of my husband, it was that painful. Since we lived on post not only the ambulance, but the firefighters and at least four MP's showed up. I don't remember the exact number. Yukon was laying on the floor next to me. He had no issues with all that traffic going in and out. 
Before the texas trip my back went out again and all the dogs were out. So I had to call a friend (abbyk9) to crate the dogs. The frontdoors were locked but she could enter through the yard. Since they know her they didn't make much of a fuzz but I did not want to take a chance of them going into a barking frenzy when somebody enters through the yard and they don't know them. And I'm pretty sure that EMS wouldn't have entered with three GSD's in the house barking. 
Just did not want to take the chance. I am glad to have a good friend like abbyk9 who immediately rushes to your aide. Sucks when something like that happens and you are alone without being able to help yourself. :help:


----------



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

your daughter knew the EMS's were going to enter the house.



Lilie said:


> Here's a thought...my back door is the first door you come to at the end of my drive. Nobody ever goes to the front door.
> 
> When I became ill and my daughter called EMS, they came straight through the back door. They didn't knock. They didn't hesitate. She was on the phone with them much the same way this guy was on the phone with the alarm company who might have been speaking with the police department.
> 
> My daughter had already crated the dogs.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> Are you serious? You think it should be illegal to teach your dog to STOP barking when it starts barking at someone that is not bad? That is nonsense. So when your new neighbor comes to say hi and the dog barks for ten minutes non-stop, that is your idea of an alert dog? That is just an idiot dog that can't perceive a threat.
> 
> I know tons of people who have a "hush" command. It is hilarious to think they would get a ticket for telling their dog to hush.
> 
> As for my point of view being "miserable", I am quite confused. It is *miserable* to hate hearing day after day people bashing cops for doing their jobs? I think the only "miserable" thing in this situation is the people who sit around on computers all day bashing everyone and everything instead of going out and making a formal complaint or doing something that has meaning in life....but I guess some people aren't very social and have nothing to do but bash others on a computer all day since they don't have the guts to say it in real life. (And no this isn't aimed towards you)


I specifically said "not a legal law, but a moral law -- it goes against nature." You are deliberately trying to twist what I said. A dog should alert to an intruder, whether that intruder carries a stocking cap and burglar tools, or a uniform hat and a badge. 

Teaching a dog NOT to bark is not the answer. This guy had no time to tell his dog to Quiet or Enough! which I use. It sounded like you were encouraging people to teach a dog to see a threat, and go in the house or not bark. And I was pointing out, that dogs should bark. That does not mean a dog should bark at the neighbor for ten minutes. But a dog SHOULD BARK AT A POLICE OFFICER ENTERING THE BACK DOOR WITHOUT THE PRESENCE OF THE OWNER LETTING HIM IN.

The dog did its job. Any of our dogs would have probably done something similar. 

But I am not going to run out and buy a bullet proof vest for all of my dogs to protect them from cops busting into my back door to shoot my dogs. 


Glad it wasn't aimed toward me, because I am as outspoken in real life as I am on the internet. My user name is my name, and I am not afraid to say what I think to pretty much anyone. 


If I had a possibly life threatening condition, and EMTs and Police were called to my home, and I had a dog guarding me. I would expect the police to do whatever it took to quickly make the scene safe for the EMTs. I love my dogs. I would hate for my dogs to be lost in this way. But I would not fault the officers if they did not waste time fetching catch poles or clubs to get past the dog.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

shadow mum said:


> If it comes down to a decision between human life and canine, the canine will ALWAYS lose.


I was just at a K9 demonstration this weekend and I was surprised to learn that in the state of Illinois a police officer can not shoot at a suspect if that suspect shot at the police officers K9 partner.


----------



## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

llombardo said:


> I was just at a K9 demonstration this weekend and I was surprised to learn that in the state of Illinois a police officer can not shoot at a suspect if that suspect shot at the police officers K9 partner.


WHAT?? I thought attempting to harm a K9 officer carried the same penalties/consequences as attempting to harm a human officer.....

Guess I need to hit google.......


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

llombardo said:


> I was just at a K9 demonstration this weekend and I was surprised to learn that in the state of Illinois a police officer can not shoot at a suspect if that suspect shot at the police officers K9 partner.


Correct, if someone came over to the K9 in the kennel and shot him, dropped the gun and walked away, the police officer cannot hunt him down and shoot him. They can arrest him though. 

But if in the course of shooting a gun off at the dog and bullets are flying during an arrest, the dog is shot, the police have to shoot at the perpetrator. He has a gun is firing it, endangering people, they need to remove the threat. 

It happened here in this town. Levi Ridenhour (someone my sister went to school with), killed the owner of Hardy's as he was taking his morning walk. He continued up the street to go shoot more people. The cops came and they let the dog go. He shot and killed the dog. His name was Cero. They then shot and killed him. He was shooting at the cops. If he was only shooting at the dog, they couldn't shoot him. But how would that ever be the case?

A cop cannot go out and shoot the guy who shot his human partner either. If the guy shoots at him, he can shoot him and welcome. If he gives himself up, he goes to court and goes to prison, and possbily gets the needle. But the cop cannot hunt him down and take vengence on him for killing human or canine.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

PatchonGSD said:


> WHAT?? I thought attempting to harm a K9 officer carried the same penalties/consequences as attempting to harm a human officer.....
> 
> Guess I need to hit google.......


Killing a k9 is not equal to killing a human officer. But harming a k9 will get you in more trouble than harming my dogs.


----------



## CassandGunnar (Jan 3, 2011)

PatchonGSD said:


> WHAT?? I thought attempting to harm a K9 officer carried the same penalties/consequences as attempting to harm a human officer.....
> 
> Guess I need to hit google.......


It depends on the State. Some places have laws that allow it, some don't. (Most States do not)


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

selzer said:


> If he was only shooting at the dog, they couldn't shoot him. But how would that ever be the case?


This would be the fine line that can be crossed and not a soul would know. There really isn't a way to know for sure if a suspect is just shooting at the dog and if the suspect is dead he can't talk.


----------

