# People who want pets are not well served!



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

I've seen numerous threads where new people are trying to find a decent dog from a good breeder. 

There is a thread running now, where the price is too low. Must not be a good dog. Titles, might mean two dogs thrown together just because of there titles. May not be a good dog. Then there is the whole "lines argument".

A favorite is to go look at the dogs and the parents. 

I could go on but here is the problem, the new person likes the breed and wants one. They are not educated about different lines, probably don't know schutzhund from a German Polka. What's an IPO or a PSA? Many never heard of those things.

They are not experts in genetics or pedigrees. 

Visit the breeder and look at the dogs. Look at what, they are all cute.

Show them the "what to look for in a responsible breeder" thread. Won't understand a lot of it and probably won't do it anyway. 

Too many questions and too much to understand right now, so they get the cute cheap one off Craig's List.

I don't have an answer but if they can't find a simpler way to get a stable GSD by asking on forums like this then what else is there.

Dog people, like many on here, are sometimes so far removed from the average family that just wants a decent animal companion... and their level of knowledge, that it seems very difficult to help them.

Some will say they shouldn't get a GSD if they don't want to do a lot of research. Maybe not but they are going to anyway so it is too bad they can't be helped at a level they can comprehend.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I don't think starting a thread asking about certain breeders on a forum is enough. I'd have no idea who is giving the advice(especially if I were new to the board). 
Reading, reading, reading would be better....and go on different boards if possible/though I know this one is always first in a search. 
Once I've read that seeing dogs in training would be an option to learn lines, then I'd be getting out to some training clubs and making some contacts within my local community.

I'm on a facebook page of local GSD owners and most of them have no idea what lines their dogs are, and most of them do no formal training either.
They are pet owners...and most of the dogs are fairly stable in temperament, happy family members.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I new this thread was going to be good coming from you. Haha

Anyways, I commented on that thread. I said to look at lines because the breeders they asked about all produce different lines. I cant in good conscience recommend a breeder without knowing more about the persons life style. That's why I asked that. Why would I recommend a breeder who produces high drive working dogs to someone who sits on the couch and watches Oprah all day? That dog would most likely end up rehomed or in a shelter. In terms of titles, I think the breeder everyone liked actually had dogs that were not titled but they did have health checks and solid pedigrees. As for the price thing, even the breeders the poster asked about were more expensive than they said their budget was so...


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

Is there "a simpler way to get a stable GSD" other than doing your research? 

Lucking out? Certainly not every $500-600 dog is going to have issues...

Possibly finding a stable adult in rescue? IDK...


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

I simply used that thread as a starting point. This thread was not intended to be about that one.

People come on here all the time wanting a puppy and don't know anything about pedigrees, titles, genetics, protection sports, or the history of the breed. There must be a way to help them. 

I thought maybe sharing the characteristics of the breed might be a starting place but we can't even agree on them

I saw a post the other day where the individual said that a GSD should have no inherent aggression. If they had aggression it was a fault.
Huh! Without it they couldn't function in the capacities they were created for.
So telling people inaccurate things aren't helpful

Like I said I don't have an answer.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

JackandMattie said:


> Is there "a simpler way to get a stable GSD" other than doing your research?
> 
> Lucking out? Certainly not every $500-600 dog is going to have issues...
> 
> Possibly finding a stable adult in rescue? IDK...


Did you do a lot of research when you got your first GSD? 

My first one was gifted to me because I liked them. I didn't have a clue.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I don't have an answer either


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Great thread Andy. Wish I had the answers. All I can say is I got a great family GSD from the SPCA. She was 2 years old. Never knew a darned thing about her. I didn't find this board until my GSD was already ten years old. I did zero research, before adopting a GSD. I had young kids. Didn't use a crate. Brought the dog home and set her lose. I guess sometimes we do everything wrong and it still turns out right. "Lucked out" as Jackand Mattie said.

Honestly, I think it is a blessing I didn't find this board sooner. Ignorance is bliss. LOL!


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

You're right, no one can agree. I think by new people coming and asking opinions about breeders, they do get help. They may not understand it just yet but a lot of info gets thrown at them. So since they don't have a puppy yet it's the perfect time to start informing them. I would say that the majority of us on this forum have learned the hard way and if can help people learn from our mistakes we will.


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## jessac (Oct 29, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> I don't think starting a thread asking about certain breeders on a forum is enough. I'd have no idea who is giving the advice(especially if I were new to the board).
> Reading, reading, reading would be better....and go on different boards if possible/though I know this one is always first in a search.
> Once I've read that seeing dogs in training would be an option to learn lines, then I'd be getting out to some training clubs and making some contacts within my local community.
> 
> ...


I understand what you are saying, but the average pet owner is probably not going to take the time to observe training to learn lines. I know that I would have been overwhelmed by that suggestion as a newbie. And what if you just want a pet and most of the dogs you see in training facilities are bred for a job of some sort and would be too high drive for the average owner, which by your own observations don't do formal training. 

I do agree that most new pet owners don't know about pedigrees, genetics, protection sports, etc. I certainly didn't and still don't know very much (but I learn so much here!). I researched what to look for in a breeder in general, but beyond that, I really was uninformed. I did check out the "what to look for in a breeder" thread and it did help a bit. Should I have done more research? Possibly. But the fact is that I was also reading up on how to select a breeder, what info I could about GSDs, puppy raising, basic training, etc. There's a lot of research involved in this type of purchase already, so I think it's great to have a thread to point people in the right direction, give them questions to think about/ask and simplify the process even a little. 

Honestly, as someone recently in this situation, I would say my best advice is to look up different breeders, have honest conversations with them about your wants in a dog and your lifestyle, ask lots of questions and do your research on what to look for in a good/reputable breeder and go from there. If you can find a good breeder, that's half the battle and they can help you select the right dog for you without you having to know all the particulars of genetics, lines, etc. They can explain their line to you best and explain what type of temperaments, drive, energy levels they produce and see if it would match with the potential owner's lifestyle.


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

When I was looking for my dog I didn't have a clue about a lot of things, I didn't even know there were different lines and had never heard of IPO. All I wanted at the time was good temperament and health, I made sure they all had hip checks and sat down with the breeder for a long time talking, learning(that's when I found out about all the different lines, their issues, etc) and meeting her dogs. I was well impressed by her dogs temperament and her knowledge but before I decided I came here and found several people who had dogs from her and asked them ALL kinds of questions. Of course I guess it's fair to say I'm not quite just an 'average pet owner'.

Unfortunately a lot of people want a dog and want it RIGHT NOW, they are impulsive and get the first dog they can find. If they really are committed to getting a good healthy pet then I think what I did above would be a good starting point. And I think no matter how hard you try to convince someone most 'pet people' are not going to care if the dogs have titled in some sport they've never heard of so for those people I think emphasizing solid temperament, health and if the dog would fit their lifestyle is best. But beyond that there's probably not much that can be done for an impulsive buyer.


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## OUbrat79 (Jan 21, 2013)

I have to admit I am one of those people who doesn't know much about pedigree when it comes to GSDs. I never did a lot of research before I picked my breeder, past looking into her and her dogs. I had a friend who had bought a GSD from her and was very pleased with his dog. 

I can say I was very pleased with everything I read about her and her dogs. I love the look of her dogs and they all appeared very well balanced. I love Ammo and am very happy with him, I would change him for anything. He is very well balanced and very eager to learn. 

Ammo was not a very expensive dog. He only cost me $650, normally $800-$900 from this breeder. I think I got an awesome deal on him and found a wonderful breeder. Feel free to check her out and let me know what you think. www.taylorsgsd.com. Ammo's parents are Roxi and Geschenk. 

I really think I got very lucky with the breeder I found.





















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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

People are fully capable of educating themselves. I have not had GSDs that long and have not had problems visiting clubs, meeting breeders, going to events, reading about dogs (yes even online). I was not born into a dog family; I never owned a dog until I got my first GSD at age 22 and I not only got a GSD but a working line dog and never had problems because I tried to do my research up front and got a dog that matched my lifestyle even though it wasn't what I wanted in "looks" (I wanted a large, heavy boned, eastern style male and I got a 50lb light sable female). If one is not looking for something *very* specific for breeding or training, then it shouldn't be that hard to do some hands-on research and come out with a nice pet.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I think people who have the most "dog experience" can be the most difficult to educate. I was.
I grew up a dog person, worked for the humane society, volunteered at a vet clinic starting in 7th grade and stayed involved in all things "dog." 
In college I worked for a well-known breeder of European showlines and the only thing I learned was that "those people are crazy." The world was SOOOO different than everyday life with dogs that it took a long time for me to start changing some of my viewpoints.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I think most of us are helpful and doing our best to provide answers. That's all we can do. The ultimate responsibility lies with the new adopter.
Meeting the sire and dam, checking references from other adopters and vets seems good advice to me.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Liesje said:


> People are fully capable of educating themselves. I have not had GSDs that long and have not had problems visiting clubs, meeting breeders, going to events, reading about dogs (yes even online). I was not born into a dog family; I never owned a dog until I got my first GSD at age 22 and I not only got a GSD but a working line dog and never had problems because I tried to do my research up front and got a dog that matched my lifestyle even though it wasn't what I wanted in "looks" (I wanted a large, heavy boned, eastern style male and I got a 50lb light sable female). If one is not looking for something *very* specific for breeding or training, then it shouldn't be that hard to do some hands-on research and come out with a nice pet.


Except there are only about ten people like you in the United States.

I'll bet you research cars the same way and give much analysis to what's for dinner also.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Jack's Dad said:


> I've seen numerous threads where new people are trying to find a decent dog from a good breeder.
> 
> There is a thread running now, where the price is too low. Must not be a good dog. Titles, might mean two dogs thrown together just because of there titles. May not be a good dog. Then there is the whole "lines argument".
> 
> ...


I think we shouldn't underestimate the people who come here to ask about getting a GSD.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Sunflowers said:


> I think we shouldn't underestimate the people who come here to ask about getting a GSD.


I'm sorry but all you have to do is look at some of the questions. It's not their fault, anymore than it was mine for all the mistakes I made over the years.

People start wherever they are and often times the only thing people know is that they like GSDs and want one.
So if you talk to them about schutzhund, they may wonder why you are talking to them about the sauce they had at Chinese dinner the other night.

It is a gift to be able to help someone at the level they are, on any topic.
a major difference between good teachers and not so good.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Sunflowers said:


> I think we shouldn't underestimate the people who come here to ask about getting a GSD.


I agree with this. Coming to the board and asking questions is far more than most people do. 

However, I think, as much as we may not agree, that a majority of people with GSD have zero desire or intentions to do anything with them beyond puppy classes. 

Do I wish that weren't true, yup. I happen to be a bit of a breed purist. For all breeds actually. I wish their were more venues and education. I actually got into a heated "debate" with a client once, who had Berners and Am Foxhounds, that he showed( successfully in conformation) in regards to working titles being a requirement if getting a Ch. his argument was that it us not possible because there are not enough opportunities. I argued, and he finally conceded, that if it were required, there would be more trials. 

I think if you love a breed, you should love everything about them and want to provide them with their natural outlet. It's why I will never own a BC. I love them too much to make them into something different than what they are. 

But, I know a bit off topic there for a second, I am aware that most people do not share this ideal. People want a Lab that us happy, friendly, easy going and lovable. I have a working Lab. She is not these things to strangers. She is all about the work. She is that way to me and people she knows. But she is selective. As are ALL working Labs I have met. 

Trying to get back to topic here, bear with me. I know that most people looking for a GSD want a dog that is one of two things:

1. Friendly solid, good with kids and other dogs, that can go to family picnics, dog parks, and greet everyone with a tail wag. 

2. Friendly, social happy and a staunch guard dog, without proper training. 

The 5% of owners that actively work their dogs are in the minority. So I think that we need to help people wanting dogs for different reasons. Help them find a dig that has health checks and temperament tests, without all the bells and whistles of titles, certs, and generations if solid police dogs in the background. 

I may not agree, but it us possible to breed good pets. Digs with low/medium drive, environmental soundness and decent health, for a general population. We are not going to "unconvince" someone, but we can steer and give them things to ask. Educate them in the general health issues, temperament issues, and soundness they need to verify before purchase. 

Pretty sure I added nothing to this conversation. But there it is. 


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

agreeing with Jack's Dad.

gsdsar "I think if you love a breed, you should love everything about them and want to provide them with their natural outlet. It's why I will never own a BC. I love them too much to make them into something different than what they are." then extend the same philosophy to the GSD.

The breed has a written constitution , the breed standard, which sets out the what the ideal is. No deviations . 

" Help them find a dig that has health checks and temperament tests, without all the bells and whistles of titles, certs, and generations if solid police dogs in the background. "
Why not? 
Who is breeding them?


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Jack's Dad said:


> People come on here all the time wanting a puppy and don't know anything about pedigrees, titles, genetics, protection sports, or the history of the breed. There must be a way to help them.


There is a way to help them, which is to give them the information they need to make an informed decision. And it is really helpful when these concepts (such as knowing pedigrees, genetics, titles, sports, etc.) are tied back into what makes a great pet. Otherwise the response is too often, "Well, why should that matter to me? I just want a nice pet".
Sheilah


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I don't have an answer either, but I think sit/stay is right onpoint. Though I don't have an answer, I know I have helped a lot of people who have come to this forum get some nice dogs....so from my perspective the forums help.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

Jack's Dad said:


> Did you do a lot of research when you got your first GSD?
> 
> My first one was gifted to me because I liked them. I didn't have a clue.


I didn't. Grew up with them, but most were backyard dogs. My mom was/is kinda *******. 

When she landed her fourth husband, he was an educated Englishman with a taste for honky tonk women. We went from the trailer park to international society. Had a dog imported to Bahrain. He was a champion and mom spent most afternoons at the SchH club. 

Since I've grown up, I've mostly taken in my mom and sisters castoff dogs. And then got into formal rescue. 

And I can build confidence in a damaged dog, but as a result of this forum, I am just beginning to learn how to train a dog. Like most, had no clue what I didn't know...

But I think you have a very important thread here. How do we keep people online, and motivate them to learn more (as y'all have done with me)... And hopefully *before* they make that purchase of an unstable dog? 

Maybe some PMs would help... A personal welcoming committee of sorts?


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

In my short experience in this forum, I feel comfortable saying Ditto!!


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## Zookeep (May 17, 2012)

I can and have gone to dog shows and talked with breeders. The only things I learn from that is their dogs look nice and they know how to give me the answers they think I want to hear. 

The most helpful thing is when breeders and experienced members of the forum recommend breeders in the person's area based on the person's stated objectives. I have read multiple threads here on breeders, and when other breeders on this forum recommend one, I put that breeder on my list.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

At some point people have to take responsibility for their own decisions. This includes buying a dog. All the information in the world is out there. It is up to each individual to look for it.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

Zookeep said:


> I can and have gone to dog shows and talked with breeders. The only things I learn from that is their dogs look nice and they know how to give me the answers they think I want to hear.
> 
> The most helpful thing is when breeders and experienced members of the forum recommend breeders in the person's area based on the person's stated objectives. I have read multiple threads here on breeders, and when other breeders on this forum recommend one, I put that breeder on my list.


The tough part there is not marketing on the site. It requires some personal experiences shared, and a personal connection made. Just thinking...


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

robk said:


> At some point people have to take responsibility for their own decisions. This includes buying a dog. All the information in the world is out there. It is up to each individual to look for it.


I agree, and not expect to be spoon fed that information. 
The harder you work for something, the more you appreciate it. 

That is one reason I hate the click to buy puppy sites that so many breeders list on.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

JackandMattie said:


> In my short experience in this forum, I feel comfortable saying Ditto!!
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Aargh. My phone screen is cracked, and my original quote didn't take. 

I was seconding the compliment to Liesje. 


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Jack's Dad said:


> I'll bet you research cars the same way and give much analysis to what's for dinner also.


Right because you've met me and know me so well. Whatever.

Every time one of these threads comes around you just put down people who actually put some effort and forethought into the decision about what dog to spend the next 15 years with and then make it sound like these folks are some rare species that aren't working 40+ hours a week like everyone else. I won't concede my position....people need to do their homework before buying a dog and stop blaming breeders or the AKC or people on the Internet.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

robk said:


> At some point people have to take responsibility for their own decisions. This includes buying a dog. All the information in the world is out there. It is up to each individual to look for it.


Precisely


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

robk said:


> At some point people have to take responsibility for their own decisions. This includes buying a dog. All the information in the world is out there. It is up to each individual to look for it.


If it's that simple then how about one giant post for every topic on the forum.

*Everybody be responsible and do your own research.
*
Lighten up Lies, I was just messing with you. Sorry if you were offended.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

let's say the person buying a pup knows nothing about GSD's.
i think if they buy from a reputable breeder things are going
to work out in their favor if they do the right in the upbringing
of the pup.


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## Zookeep (May 17, 2012)

JackandMattie said:


> The tough part there is not marketing on the site. It requires some personal experiences shared, and a personal connection made. Just thinking...http://www.petguide.com/mobile


I don't find most of the personal experiences all that helpful. Whenever someone asks about breeders, members chime in with something like "I got my dog from so and so, and she is great". While those comments are made with the best intentions, they are not all that helpful. One person's experience with one dog, doesn't tell me much about the breeder. However, when a respected breeder says "I would take one of her dogs any day", which I have seen in a thread here, in my view you can't get a better recommendation than that. 

What I also find helpful is people who say "PM me about such and such a breeder".


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

carmspack said:


> agreeing with Jack's Dad.
> 
> gsdsar "I think if you love a breed, you should love everything about them and want to provide them with their natural outlet. It's why I will never own a BC. I love them too much to make them into something different than what they are." then extend the same philosophy to the GSD.
> 
> ...


You missed my point. I want what's best for the breed. I want a GSD tha encompasses what they SHOULD be IMHO. But I am in the minority. And by confusing, running off, belittling someone's desire for a nice pet, we don't help. We just push to Craig's list. 

I think a GSD should be a working dog. But I also know that less than 1/2 of pups born to working parents will end up as working dogs ( I made up that statistic) I think there is a market for pets. I think that the pups from working parents that don't cut it can make good pets, in the right home. I DON'T think that most people consider that. Or even want what working people call " low drive". 

So, while I may not like it. I know there is a market for pet dogs. And if someone comes here asking for help, I should help. If they give me websites its nor hard to look and say, pick breeder A. They OFA, DM test and raise the pups in the home. Instead of harping on the lack of titles, competitions and othe minutae a more experienced or serious buyer will look at. 

Again, please understand my position tat I want the GSD to remain a working dog, but I M realistic. As the 3rd most popular breed we can at least steer to healthy stock and not alienate. 


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Sorry, not in a mood to be patronized and messed with tonight.

Tons of topics go a hundred rounds on this forum...what is the black ring of fur on a puppy's tail, how do you remove a tick, what's the best way to start a puppy in tracking.... It's just the nature of the forum. Hopefully people asking for insight on breeders just use it as a jumping off point.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Why is it so difficult to do a little research before making a life changing decision? In this day and age, there really is no excuse besides laziness and compulsion. There is infinite information out there and it doesn't take much to look and find it. 

People want instant gratification. They want their puppy and they want it now. If the dog becomes too much of an inconvenience, just dump it at the shelter or put it on craigslist and get another one in a year or two.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Jack's Dad said:


> Except there are only about ten people like you in the United States.
> 
> I'll bet you research cars the same way and give much analysis to what's for dinner also.



Have to be more than 10 since there are at least 2 of us just on this board.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

There's always the right way to do something, and then there's the dumbed down lazy way to do it.

Society shouldnt be coddled because it has learned to take the easy road. If you want a certain breed then you should know what that breed is. If you want the personality of a happy golden then why are you looking for a gsd? I think members, knowledgable members, on this forum would be doing the public a disservice of they dumbed down every reply they gave just to make it easier for the mass majority to comprehend. 

I learned the hard way about good dogs vs. Bad dogs. My extremely poorly bred newspaper special with SEVERE fear aggression. Sure I thought I knew it all. Make sure parents are friendly and health tested, right? The breeder was a smooth talker. We talked for an hour in the phone, she told me everything I thought I wanted to hear on the phone.

It was only after I got him and had to deal with his issues that I really started researching. Ive learned a very large majority of what I know from a select few individuals on multiple forums over the span of 4 years or so.

Youre right people are going to do what they want want regardless. But they should be given the facts and then it's their responsibility. Maybe theyll get lucky. Or maybe they'll get what I had in Luther. And maybe they'll learn or maybe they wont. No one's fault but their own.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Anubis_Star said:


> There's always the right way to do something, and then there's the dumbed down lazy way to do it.
> 
> Society shouldnt be coddled because it has learned to take the easy road.
> 
> Youre right people are going to do what they want want regardless. But *they should be given the facts* and then it's their responsibility. No one's fault but their own.


The thing is, how do they know what is fact and what is someones opinion unless they really dig deep?
Sometimes it does take that problem dog for people to step up and learn whether it is a health or temperament issue(or both!) But the person has to be committed to helping thru knowledge and the ones that take the easy road aren't willing to commit. Easier to toss away the problem and replace it with another. Ignorance is one thing, laziness is another.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Some of this sounds like being irritated someone doesn't like star fruit when the only stores near them are a Save a Lot and Piggly Wiggly. Sure you can Google star fruit...... but you have to know it exists first.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Sorry, not in a mood to be patronized and messed with tonight.
> 
> Tons of topics go a hundred rounds on this forum...what is the black ring of fur on a puppy's tail, how do you remove a tick, what's the best way to start a puppy in tracking.... It's just the nature of the forum. Hopefully people asking for insight on breeders just use it as a jumping off point.


The whole point of this topic though, is that this forum could very well be the beginnings of new prospective pet owners research. If they come on here ignorant it would be nice if they left with some practical ideas, without having to have a degree in genetics etc...

Not addressing you Lies, but for people on here to assume that new folks are just irresponsible, lazy jerks who won't do there homework is a disservice.
It is also elitist.

When and where I grew up, if you wanted a dog you got one. No research.

Most pet owners still operate that way, so if they come on here they should be helped but with accurate information on breeders and the breed.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Jack's Dad said:


> When and where I grew up, if you wanted a dog you got one. No research.


The times they are a changin'.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> if they come on here they should be helped but with accurate information on breeders and the breed.


I believe they are, Andy. 
If there is misinformation, someone will surely call it out. But, doing your own research instead of relying on one thread of information is best. I started a thread years ago on the differences of WG/ Czech and the DDR lines and it helped me make an informed decision on which litter I was going to go with. But I didn't let that one thread influence me, as I had to do more reading and chatting with people who were familiar with the pedigrees of the individual dogs. I also trusted those that were advising me, they weren't just posters on a discussion board.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ok, I just read page one, maybe I will go back and read the rest. But Andy, I think that people who are new to the breed, and just want a pet, generally get the breeders that breed the dogs that often are problematic. That's bad, and good. 

The best dogs from the best breeders may be the easiest to raise, but they do not teach us the most. There is no better baptism into the breed than to have a pup that needs handling that makes you dig and learn and work. 

And after a few years, when that dog is doing pretty good, the owner knows where to go and how to find a GSD. They find the good GSDs by going to dog classes and finding out where other people got their dogs. They find them when they have made friends on line working through issues. 

Sometimes a newbie gets a rockstar their first time through the gate, maybe that person is not quite as well served as the person who gets the fraidy-dog, or the reactive dog, or the high-energy pup, or the dog super land shark. These dogs drive new onwers to internet sites, and dog classes. After getting through that dog, then all the rest of your pups tend to be much easier, because you have learned a lot both in what to look for in a dog and what to expect in a dog/what to expect with respect to what you need to do.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> The times they are a changin'.


No they are not. Most people still get puppies on the spur of the moment because they are cute or some similar reason.

Some things are sure a changin' and not always for the best.

** sorry, way off topic**


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

I just meant with how people can go about getting that cute puppy. There is so much more access to information than when you were a kid. People aren't just limited to their buddy's litter from down the block or that doggie in the window. Pretty much everyone has an ipad, iphone, laptop, etc these days.

Technology has changed the world - some for the better, some for worse. The world is a much different place than those days.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Jack's Dad said:


> Most people still get puppies on the spur of the moment because they are cute or some similar reason.



Really? Can you qualify that? I've heard of people doing this and I hear this all the time on this particular forum, but at least anecdotally when I consider everyone I know who's gotten a puppy recently (*not* GSD people....family, friends, co-workers....very few GSD people actually), I don't know that any were a complete spur of the moment cute puppy purchase. I don't know if that makes it any better or worse considering the varied success my acquaintances have had with their dogs as far as training, behavioral, and health issues or ultimately re-homing the dog. Certainly many if not most of the dogs are ones I'd have no interest in or from breeders I personally wouldn't give my money to, but they weren't spur of the moment, instant gratification purchases either. The last person I helped quite a bit in finding a GSD has actually been looking for about two years. She settled on a breeder a few months back but isn't actually getting a puppy until Christmas.

I think in many ways technology can be a hindrance because a lot of people have a very large web or social media presence while other very experienced and knowledgeable people are there to help but get overlooked. Lately the person who has been helping me the most, both in knowledge/mentoring aspects but also just general encouragement is someone I met for the first time in person, not online, in fact I don't know if she has a web site or how to contact her online but I know what training clubs and events I can find her at and ask for help. She's not even a GSD person but in many ways it doesn't really matter. Technology can make certain aspects of communication easier and more convenient but I still think the best way to make good contacts and learn is to get out there and observe (and I say this as a certified IT professional who would much rather send an e-mail than pick up the phone, so it's often a lesson for me too).


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Really? Can you qualify that? I've heard of people doing this and I hear this all the time on this particular forum, but at least anecdotally when I consider everyone I know who's gotten a puppy recently (*not* GSD people....family, friends, co-workers....very few GSD people actually), I don't know that any were a complete spur of the moment cute puppy purchase. .


Wiggles was spur of the moment cute puppy at shelter can't let her die. Luckily I'm experienced enough to know what I was getting into. 

Look at my thread from today for the what happens most of the time. 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...2538-reno-nv-male-under-1-year-going-pts.html


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

"Most of the time" what? I would hope that most GSDs do not have a bite history at 1 year old or we've got bigger problems than helping people choose a breeder. I understand we've got too many dogs in shelters. My good friend transports 6 GSDs a week to her rescue here. But when we just flippantly throw out words or statements like "most" without anything to really back it up it doesn't help us address the real problem.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Liesje said:


> "Most of the time" what?


Most of the time people get a cute puppy without thinking about things.. I work with a rescue that is what I see all the time. In fact I don't know anyone currently, other than myself, who picked out a puppy from a breeder.


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## jessac (Oct 29, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> Most of the time people get a cute puppy without thinking about things.. I work with a rescue that is what I see all the time. In fact I don't know anyone currently, other than myself, who picked out a puppy from a breeder.


Agreed. One of my friend's bought a bulldog from a pet store spur of the moment. And she even regrets not breeding him. I don't think that her view/ experience is *that* uncommon. 

And I can list on one hand the number of folks I know that got dogs that came from a breeder they spent time researching.


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## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

robk said:


> At some point people have to take responsibility for their own decisions. This includes buying a dog. All the information in the world is out there. It is up to each individual to look for it.


Yes, this. The information is available on the forum and between the forum members, you just need to look around and pick up on it (or ask!).

I think the "Choosing A Breeder" section does an okay job of helping a person start the process. I wasn't born into a dog loving family - quite the opposite, really. My parents were Asian immigrants and neither saw the appeal of raising a dog as a companion. So when I got my first German Shepherd (first dog ever) I immediately turned to the internet. I asked around on multiple forums, including both generic questions ("what is a good breeder?") and specific questions ("is this breeder working lines? Is working or show lines a better choice for me?"). And even though I know now that answers will vary and are never black and white, it gave me a good starting point. As an example, I was told then to look for parents with SCHH titles (a BH isn't good enough), make sure the breeders provide at least a 2 year guarantee on hips, confirm that they health test, and refuse to buy a puppy from any breeder who breeds more than 3 litters a year. I didn't follow those rules to a T back then and definitely do not plan to in the future, but they were good guidelines for me. 

Yes, sometimes responses are vague or inconclusive or biased, but having heard opinions from multiple people over quite a span of time helped me form my own opinions and realize what I wanted and did not want. I must have asked about three or four different local breeders? I heard the good and the bad from people who've dealt with the breeders personally, and also from people who haven't. And sometimes I didn't even know, because I was looking through old threads. It was all useful to me. 

I wouldn't call it doing a _lot _of research because I did place a deposit a few months later, but I wouldn't consider it impulsive either. I learned what I could prior to making my decision, and continued learning afterwards. I won't be looking for another puppy for at least 2 or 3 more years, but I haven't stopped researching. 

I think we should give people more credit. I was barely 15 years old when I joined the forum and I was more than willing to put in the effort. I'm not that much older now (19 years) but I think myself capable of finding the information I need and applying the limited knowledge and experience that I do have.


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## Bubbles (Aug 31, 2012)

I got bubbles from a family on craigslist. I could never afford an akc shepherd. but I have my dream dog . The only problem I have so far is I don't know what type of shepherd she is working, pet , or show dog and/or a mix of lines. I think for new people and I wish I knew in the beginning how to differnciat the types so the average person gets a pet line from a decent source. that's my 2¢………


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

I agree to a certain extent about going to see the breeder in person and seeing the parents.

But without this forum, I would not know what questions to ask about the parents, the different lines and types of GSD's and temperaments.

I think my dog is absolutely gorgeous and I always get compliments. So if took the time to look at the parents (I did not) I would see great looking, large GSD's.

I even got referrals for our breeder from a lot of my husband's police friends. So guess what, I got a high drive, super protective working dog who's father sired police and protection dogs. Even though I told the breeder i just wanted a simple family dog. Of course we love Molly, and have learned to bring out the best in her, but it's been a hard journey which potential GSD owners may not want to attempt.

Had I gone on this website prior to getting Molly, I might have looked into American Show Lines.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

gsdsar said "You missed my point. I want what's best for the breed.. And by confusing, running off, belittling someone's desire for a nice pet, we don't help. We just push to Craig's list."

NO you missed my point.

to this " I want a GSD tha encompasses what they SHOULD be IMHO. But I am in the minority"

You should not be in the minority. If you don't want what the GSD should be , then you don't want a GSD.

A working dog , bred for working MUST have good temperament , must be balanced . 

I do not belittle people wanting a good pet. I have no idea where you get that idea. If anything I think it is time to throw open the windows and yell "I'm mad as **** and I don't want to take it anymore" the rant borrowed from Network .
Dogs should not be bred to a market. They should be bred to an ideal.

One of the best pets around is a solid black dog of mine well into his 10th year . He lives in a multi dog household . He attracts positive attention wherever he goes - beautiful conformation , head , size , very obviously masculine. 
He is a pet . Never caused any problems. Not hyper active, not demanding , not needing the owner to exhaust himself meeting the dogs needs. He adapts to whatever the situation is . Can go to the park where there are kids running , kites flying , bikes and joggers and lots of doggies . He goes to training occasionally. Does very impressive bite work - yet is the ultimate "gentleman" of dogs . 

His sire --- a really tough police dog -- Stormfront's Brawnson SG Stormfront's Brawnson - 2000 & 2002 WPO Champion SchH3 DPO2 FH2 KKL2 lbz Narc/Patrol/SWAT K9
His dam -- my female Kohl Carmspack Kohl who was tested to the max by Diehl and Bastiaansen , a female whose brother was an RCMP dog, whose sire produced a solid core of working dogs.

While promoting pet stock you do not need to keep chipping away at the importance of GSD being bred for work. Who does not quote the von Stephanitz virtual logo 
- above all else keep my dog a working dog.

Stability and balance .


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

here is some experience that I have as a breeder. I only have one or two litters in a 12 to 18 month time frame. I get calls that want a pup at a certain time , convenient to the persons vacation time , or when the weather is nice . 
Don't have any available , or won't have any available at that time. In this age of fast and easy people tend to want something now so they go out and look at a litter usually local , buy a pup. First litter . Because there is this idea that the dog will be what you make it , all that is needed are the basics of life and LOVE. When the dog is a problem do they contact the breeder -- no, because the breeders interest ended the moment cash was exchanged and the pup made way (one by one) for the next litter to take up the space . The best I can do is to steer them to good vets, to good obedience classes, to good trainers -- all who will be honest and fair .

Another usual is someone calling for a pup . You can have the most stable , bomb proof dog , guarantees, etc etc , and the person will pass because you have a sable and they want the "traditional" black and tan and in conversation will admit that this is a priority to them - over temperament . Can think of several examples where the go to breeder was as close to being a puppy miller as you can get. Lots of sharp shy dogs --- lots of wry mouth . 

I don't like the idea of dogs being bred to a market , pet market -- . That is the puppy millers raison d'etre . Inventory . Supply . 

A dog should be with you for at least 10 years . Take your time .


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

There are many things that matter within the breed, and to the people buying them. I have swayed many people to buying a "higher quality" dog, and others not so much.

The best dog I've ever had is STILL the dog I met in a gas station parking lot that I paid $250 for. People don't like to hear it, but it's the truth.

I've spent thousands of dollars on other animals that had poor temperaments, missing teeth, and health issues. And that was with doing research.

I don't understand why it was so easy to get a beautiful, strong, excellently tempered dog just by opening up my newspaper classifieds back in 2004, and so many years later I am still struggling getting a good dog (my new guy not withstanding).

It is very frustrating, and it's a gamble regardless.

Yeah, there's an "I want it now" mentality out there, but there's also the mentality of "If you go to a high quality breeder, nothing bad will happen!" And it's not true.

Indeed, I am very bitter about this outcome. At this point, I'm pretty sure I will always be bitter about it.

Should people put temperament over color? No. But neither should they have to compromise for a color they do not like. There are thousands upon thousands of breeders out there that can provide a dog both of the temperament and color a person is looking for. Drives me nuts that it is such a big deal to breeders that people have a freaking color preference.

I, quite frankly, am SICK of black and tan. I find it boring, and I'm finding many dogs these days with reverse masks (which I find ugly). I want my next dog to be sable, and I'm not willing to compromise.

But I won't take a sable with a crappy temperament, either.

And let's talk about price for a minute. Why can't a dog be $600? Why does that automatically make it bad? Not everybody can afford a $1500 dog, and not everybody wants a rescue. Whether we like it or not, people will go to breeders we would probably judge as not being very good.

But if a person gets the kind of dog they want? Well, who the crap cares.

I used to get the indignation and self righteous anger. I am now at the point where I can't be angry about what everybody else chooses to do. I'll go to the breeders where I believe I can get the kind of dog I want, and I'll be happy.

People can like the kind of dog I have, or they can hate it. Doesn't matter a whit to me. I'm the one that has to live with it.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

I'm sorry but at the end of the day you can't fix stupid.

You can try to educate those who are new and are looking for a pup on lines, breeders, what to look for etc. You can lead a horse to the water and all that, but at the end of the day if they don't want to put in the time and effort there's not much you can do.

Dumbing things down, to me, is just bogus. People try to tell others how *they* would handle a puppy search. If the recipients choose to ignore that advice because "who the **** would go out there and spend time with the parents and meet the breeders and watch training etc etc" well I'm sorry but there's not much else we can do for them... what would you suggest? a star-rating system for breeders? points rating system? A clear cut answer to the question "what breeder should I go to for my next pup"? Good luck, because these do not exist.

I mean really, go to a car forum and ask about purchasing a car and see the responses you get - then you go out there and choose to use the information you got or to decide it's overkill and you "just want a car"... And go ahead and say a car and a dog are not the same thing and I will say of course not, there is MUCH more research involved in choosing a dog than a car


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

Xeph; said:


> And let's talk about price for a minute. Why can't a dog be $600? Why does that automatically make it bad? Not everybody can afford a $1500 dog, and not everybody wants a rescue. Whether we like it or not, people will go to breeders we would probably judge as not being very good.[\QUOTE]
> 
> Someone literally just asked this same question on another forum I'm on. I don't think anyone had a satisfactory answer. The usual points about good temperament and health were made, but at the end of the day? Price guarantees neither. The poster wanted to know why they should pay top dollar for a dog capable of police work when all they really wanted was a pet. I've seen some people on this board criticize $800 dogs as being "too cheap," but is that really true? If the parents are health tested and don't have temperament problems, isn't that breeder a good option for someone unwilling to do more research? At least if they buy from someone who is responsible, they will not be adding to the problem of homeless shepherds. So... I guess as someone new to the breed, my question is would it be safer for the DOGS if new owners were encouraged to focus on responsible practices over lines and titles? Things like health checks, socialization and early care, breeder support, and willingness to take back the puppy no questions asked if there is a problem. It seems like fewer dogs would end up in rescue if these easy minimum standards could be met?
> 
> ...


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

I do often wonder about some of the prices of the puppies I see.

I've seen the math done on litters, and done the math myself. You are NEVER going to make back what you spend on training, titling, and purchasing on a dog. But I mean, come on. $2000/puppy with a litter size of 5 or 6? That's $10,000-12,000.

I don't think it generally costs that much to produce a litter. Heck, a $2000 puppy is at least 3 times the cost of a fair stud fee (Not going to lie that I think $1000 stud fees are ludicrous).

But, I am an incredibly pragmatic person, rather than a person of prestige.

I want a good dog, and I suppose in a way I envy people that can afford a $2000 dog. I have my price limit these days that I'm really not willing to step out of. It'd have to be a really special dog.

I don't think there's anything wrong with that.


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## Littlelady4 (Feb 7, 2013)

I have the sweetest girl. Couldn't pay a fortune for her, didn't pay a fortune, not a dog with an "amazing blood line"....took a quick peek at her parents, but it was too late. We were already in love. And she's great! In fact, our vet says "she is lovely. The nicest GSD I have seen in a long time." Maybe we just got lucky...


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

I don't understand the attitude of those who say "I did the research, went and met breeders, watched the training etc..." I did it so can they. Can't spoon feed them or fix stupid. Screw them, let them get out there and put in the time like *I* did.

It's like telling someone on a Weight Watchers forum who asks how to get started that all they need to do is stop eating like a hog and they will lose weight. Because "that's what we do". 
There should be some basic information to help without inundating them with so much they don't need to know.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

Andy feel free to start a thread providing this basic information, or go out there and educate potential buyers, or start a website with basic "choosing a breeder" information that you feel is adequate - anything besides sitting here and telling everyone how we are all doing it wrong.

I dont understand your gripes. You always seem to be complaining about the system but I don't think I've ever heard any ideas or suggestions to improve?


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

What I don't understand is why people come into the forum at all if they're just going to have attitude. If you're not in the mood, don't sign in. It's that simple.

If you're tired of answering the same questions over and over for new users, maybe you're jaded and it's time to find another outlet.

Some people learn better through conversation than just by looking up an old thread or such and such article or reading such and such book. Doesn't mean we can't still point out those other resources, but why be bitter about it.

If you can't say something nice...

Aimed at no one in particular, just I've noticed it over and over. I mean, it seems like Jack's Dad is trying to be constructive with this thread, after all.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

ayoitzrimz said:


> Andy feel free to start a thread providing this basic information, or go out there and educate potential buyers, or start a website with basic "choosing a breeder" information that you feel is adequate - anything besides sitting here and telling everyone how we are all doing it wrong.
> 
> I dont understand your gripes. You always seem to be complaining about the system but *I don't think I've ever heard any ideas or suggestions to improve*?


I thought he was asking for those now...

Haven't been here long enough to notice a history of complaining, so maybe my opinion isn't biased yet.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

ayoitzrimz said:


> Andy feel free to start a thread providing this basic information, or go out there and educate potential buyers, or start a website with basic "choosing a breeder" information that you feel is adequate - anything besides sitting here and telling everyone how we are all doing it wrong.
> 
> I dont understand your gripes. You always seem to be complaining about the system but I don't think I've ever heard any ideas or suggestions to improve?


I said in the OP that I don't have a ready made answer.
It seems to really bother some that I don't drink the cool-aid and just hang out in chat agreeing with everyone. 

I believe the breed is in trouble and pet buyers are by far the biggest market. If we can't help them then the breed will suffer and so will all the dogs who then wind up in shelters or worse.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I don't have any answers.
here is another experience . You get a phone call and someone is telling a bit about themselves hoping for a pup in the near future . No big goals or ambitions , just a dog to be proud of that they can enjoy for years to come . You explain what your program is , emphasizing the necessity for bred-in-the-bone stability and balance, easy trainability. Shortly after you are cut off , the person saying "oh , no , I don't need that much, I "just" want a pet ". 
The truth is that the person who wants that JUST a pet should put temperament and stability high above anything else. There is more potential risk with something going wrong in a household where kids come and go , doors are left openable , delivery persons arriving . The pet has more exposure to "life" .


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

OP, I totally agree with you. Great advice is usually given but I don't think the average person is going to go through all that. They just want to buy a nice family pet. I think the average person might join a forum and ask a few questions. Perhaps they'll visit a breed selector website. When you start getting into lines, and titles, etc...it all sounds rather complicated to a newbie. I'm not saying people shouldn't try and educate, and like you, I'm not sure what the answers are. I just think sometimes when a person comes on here looking for a nice family pet, the advice makes the process of finding the right puppy far more rigorous than the average person is prepared to go through.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

carmspack said:


> I don't have any answers.
> here is another experience . You get a phone call and someone is telling a bit about themselves hoping for a pup in the near future . No big goals or ambitions , just a dog to be proud of that they can enjoy for years to come . You explain what your program is , emphasizing the necessity for bred-in-the-bone stability and balance, easy trainability. Shortly after you are cut off , the person saying "oh , no , I don't need that much, I "just" want a pet ".
> *The truth is that the person who wants that JUST a pet should put temperament and stability high above anything else. There is more potential risk with something going wrong in a household where kids come and go , doors are left openable , delivery persons arriving . The pet has more exposure to "life" .*


Agree 100% with this statement. I am not home all the time and really have very little control over who comes and goes all day long. I have teenage kids who have friends over. My wife is very active. The dog is exposed to many many stimuli that I cannot shield it from. My wife or the kids are likely to take him to any store, park, other person's house or place of business at anytime. I am usually at work. It is absolutely critical that the dog is stable and at ease in strange social settings. Add to this that I choose to participate in schutzhund with him, I have to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that he will not be reactive with strangers and have a clear understanding of when it is ok to go into "bite work" mode.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

fuzzybunny said:


> I just think sometimes when a person comes on here looking for a nice family pet, the advice makes the process of finding the right puppy far more rigorous than the average person is prepared to go through.


Then maybe it would be beneficial to have it explained in layman's terms _*why *_it is important for the average person to go to great lengths to make sure they are making the best choices possible.

I totally agree with the idea that a pet/companion needs to have rock solid nerves and temperament. I think the average family pet has to put up with far, far more than we owners give them credit for putting up with. 
Sheilah


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

carmspack said:


> You explain what your program is , emphasizing the necessity for bred-in-the-bone stability and balance, easy trainability. Shortly after you are cut off , the person saying "oh , no , I don't need that much, I "just" want a pet ".
> The truth is that the person who wants that JUST a pet should put temperament and stability high above anything else. There is more potential risk with something going wrong in a household where kids come and go , doors are left openable , delivery persons arriving . The pet has more exposure to "life" .


Absolutely. I think when people say they just want a pet, what they are really trying to say is "I don't want to spend 1,000+ for "just a dog." It's a pretty competitive market in puppy prices so that means it's fairly efficient. Within a certain range you do get what you pay for. And if you got lucky and got more than what you pay for then great but it's not reflective of the market. Puppies cost about the same as they did 10~15 years ago and that's better than how prices have fared in other things.

A pet household in certain aspects is more demanding than a dog sport or working dog household. Typically a working dog owner has more training savvy, more willing to do and spend what's needed in terms of management, more knowledge, more resources to access such as other members in their club, and frankly a much much higher level of tolerance than the typical pet owner. I read people complaining about landsharks and thinking to myself, I love that puppy! I would seriously worry if my GSD puppy is not a killer landshark. 

Then there are those two sometimes contradictory objectives that pet owners have: a worry free dog with children, other dogs, strangers, etc., and yet they get a GSD instead of a Lab because they want a dog that is protective and would intimidate an intruder. Well often a protective and intimidating dog is also a psychologically strong dog that needs psychologically strong owners that put a structure in place not one that humanizes and babies a GSD. 

This forum is not really a solution to helping puppy buyers out there the way the OP perhaps has in mind. The people who do research before buying a puppy are already here learning. The people who do not do research before getting a puppy, come to the forum because they have a behavioral or health problem with their puppy, then they learn. So the solution is really outside of this forum.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> I've seen numerous threads where new people are trying to find a decent dog from a good breeder.
> 
> There is a thread running now, where the price is too low. Must not be a good dog. Titles, might mean two dogs thrown together just because of there titles. May not be a good dog. Then there is the whole "lines argument".
> 
> ...



Everyone started as a newb sometime in their life even the ones who grew up with a gsd or 2 in the family. I think someone shold make a newbie gsd sheet or something. Then a newbie comes in and is confused we can cut and paste it for them. To help them understand better the wide diverse genetic pool of gsd's, their care etc.. Would really help a lot of newbie from being confused. Also could add in a small part about gsds and protecting people. The more people we educate the better.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Ocean said:


> Absolutely. I think when people say they just want a pet, what they are really trying to say is "I don't want to spend 1,000+ for "just a dog."
> 
> A pet household in certain aspects is more demanding than a dog sport or working dog household. Typically a working dog owner has more training savvy, more willing to do and spend what's needed in terms of management, more knowledge, more resources to access such as other members in their club, and frankly a much much higher level of tolerance than the typical pet owner. I read people complaining about landsharks and thinking to myself, I love that puppy! I would seriously worry if my GSD puppy is not a killer landshark.
> 
> Then there are those two sometimes contradictory objectives that pet owners have: a worry free dog with children, other dogs, strangers, etc., and yet they get a GSD instead of a Lab because they want a dog that is protective and would intimidate an intruder. Well often a protective and intimidating dog is also a psychologically strong dog that needs psychologically strong owners that put a structure in place not one that humanizes and babies a GSD.


Agree x a million with all those points.

But I don't know how to solve them.

In rescue, when I get a prospective adopter who wants a "protective" dog who is also going to be bombproof with their kids and visitors, I sit them down and explain that if they just want a dog with a deep scary-sounding bark when a stranger comes to the door, just about any big dog will do. If they want a dog that will potentially _bite_ people, then we're talking about potential risk to their own friends and family (because in the rescue context, a dog who is a known bite risk is generally a dog who is obviously unstable -- otherwise we wouldn't know that they were willing to bite, since we're not exactly testing these guys on the Schutzhund field).

At that point most people immediately back up and say "no, no, of course safety is number one" and explain that what they really want is that dog with the big scary bark.

So I think some of it is definitional and the average pet owner's concept of "protective" is not what some people on this forum would think of as "protective." Words have a way of taking on different shadings in specific contexts (look at how complicated words like "dominance" and "correction" become!).

As to the rest, though, I honestly don't even know where to begin.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

this is so very very true - "A pet household in certain aspects is more demanding than a dog sport or working dog household. Typically a working dog owner has more training savvy, more willing to do and spend what's needed in terms of management, more knowledge, more resources to access such as other members in their club, and frankly a much much higher level of tolerance than the typical pet owner"

I am going to stop agreeing at the landsharky thing though . DIRECTION not redirection . Think of Super Nanny Jo Frost -- man , she should be a dog trainer.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

it can't be all about the money -- because people will buy a dog for the same or more -- even if it is from a guy who breeds pets to pets , or promotes them as softies -- and then you see them in training a few months later , nervous little dogs . Of course not all the time --- , or the dog is sold for less or "given" which then obligates the owner into some pyramid scheme breeding franchise.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

carmspack said:


> it can't be all about the money -- because people will buy a dog for the same or more -- even if it is from a guy who breeds pets to pets , or promotes them as softies -- and then you see them in training a few months later , nervous little dogs . Of course not all the time --- , or the dog is sold for less or "given" which then obligates the owner into some pyramid scheme breeding franchise.


I think most of the time it really is about money, although there are other things tangled up in there too.

When my mother-in-law was looking into standard poodles earlier this year, it was very common for show prospects to cost $500-1000 more than "pet quality" puppies. I'm sure the same is true of many other breeds, and probably show line GSDs too. A _lot_ of people expect that "pet quality" dogs should cost less, because they are perceived as lacking whatever traits make a dog "show quality" or "working quality." Since these dogs are "just pets," people reason, they should be cheaper.

And if you _do_ want "just a pet," you can find dogs for $25 to $500 being sold in the parking lot of your local Wal-Mart or outside a PetSmart or in the classifieds section or wherever else. So people will say "well why should I pay more for XYZ trait/title/health test that is not obviously relevant to my goals, when other perfectly nice-seeming pups are much cheaper?"

On the flipside, there are a lot of people who use price as a proxy for quality and just buy whatever is most expensive under the theory that it must therefore be the best. I've been on this board only a very short time, but I've already seen tons of threads about people purchasing expensive imported dogs for inflated prices -- because it's expensive, so it must be the best. Most of these buyers don't seem to be looking for "just a pet," but some are.

I don't think I'm saying anything that hasn't already been said a thousand times before, but I do think the "just a pet" sentiment always pretty much comes down to money, coupled with an unwillingness to do a ton of research because, after all, it's "just a pet." It just happens that the money thing cuts both ways, and that there are lousy breeders on opposite ends of the spectrum chasing both markets.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

I actually think this forum does a good job explaining how to find a good breeder, it just takes a little bit of effort from the new person. For the non-dog expert, there is a lot of new lingo to be learned, and biases to weed through. We all have an opinion on what makes a good dog, and what makes a good GSD. And we all want different things from our dogs.

It is annoying to have to spoon feed answers to people. I find this constantly online. A simple Google search, or subject search on this site, can answer 85% of a beginner's questions. I think the people who have the patience to do this day in and day out are to be commended.

But I think I do kind of agree with the original premis of this thread. I am a pet owner. I have no desire to do sport with my dogs. I want to be able to run a few miles a day with my dog, throw the ball, play around on some agility equipment, chill out in the yard or in the house... It would be a nice bonus to be able to take my dog out in public to parks or festivals without worrying something bad might happen.

But the more I learn from this site about the breed, the more I feel like an "ideal" GSD is not really going to be the right dog for my lifestyle. The show lines (I own an ASL myself), can have temperament issues. The working lines need to be worked. **Maybe** I could get a solid temperament ASL, or a laid back WL, but those dogs are not what breed purists would say are good representatives of the breed.

So if I love the breed (which I do, very much), then my purchasing a dog like the one who would fit my pet owner lifestyle, is really doing the breed as a whole a disservice because it promotes the attributes that are not what the breed is meant to be.

It leaves me feeling kind of frustrated and inadequate. But I guess that if I truly did feel strongly about the betterment of the breed, I would just get a rescue GSD. At this point I have no idea where my next GSD is going to come from. Or if it will be a GSD.


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## Jordan1017 (May 9, 2013)

I'll put myself out there and be honest. I paid $500 for my girl (which average is closer to $700-$1,000, and mutts $300-$600 it's crazy here.) We were looking for over a year, looked at some nice breeders, and in the end we couldn't get ourselves to spend the $2-4+k puppies go for out here. Mom and dad did have their testing done, which was important to us, but they did not need titles etc. We had the pick of the 5 females and speaking with the lady we quickly narrowed it to 3 then 2. We only spent about an hour socializing with them before picking out girl. She had an alert yet calm personality. While others fell over themselves to get to us, she was eager, but calm and alert. She's kept this personality so far and is quick at picking up the basics. We're starting basics and she's already gotten sit and the hand command down. We had wanted a sable, but the litter we looked at the parents were not tested and the pups just weren't what we were looking for.
Now, we were at a park and a couple had a puppy similar in our girls age, just a couple weeks older (didn't have my girl since we only go for car drives till her vet gives her the clear.) They have him in training and when they mentioned they mentioned the breeder it sounded familiar and in fact was a top one and price reflects $4k+. I'm sure he'll grow up to become an amazing dog, but I'll be honest I'd take my girl and her calmness over him. 
Yes, I understand the importance of a quality breeder, but that's just too rich for my blood blood in the real world. Yes I could afford it if needed, but I don't want to spend that much for one when I have 4 children I'd rather put it towards. Will I care for our girl and meet her needs, bring her to the vet when needed etc. Yes, but that's a given since she's now ours and our responsibility now. Just because I wasn't willing to spend a large amount to get her does not mean she'll not be loved and cared for properly.


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## Jordan1017 (May 9, 2013)

But, we are wanting a pup for family, not showing nor breeding. Had we interest in either we would have went with a top top breeder.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

pets4life said:


> Everyone started as a newb sometime in their life even the ones who grew up with a gsd or 2 in the family. I think someone shold make a newbie gsd sheet or something. Then a newbie comes in and is confused we can cut and paste it for them. To help them understand better the wide diverse genetic pool of gsd's, their care etc.. Would really help a lot of newbie from being confused. Also could add in a small part about gsds and protecting people. The more people we educate the better.


I like this idea.

A little about what the breed is in general. Short notes on such things as temperament, different lines. Health and temperament issues. Basic requirements of raising and training a GSD puppy. Understanding of common puppy characteristics like biting. 

I'm amazed at the number of people who do not know puppies bite. 

A little about socialization, what it is good for and what it is not and an honest bit on problems within the breed. Raising GSDs around children.

Short and to the point. Any other ideas? 

I pick Lucia (Castlemaid) to write it. She is an administrator so no one will give her crap about it. She is also very fair IMO.


Nice posts Ocean, Carmen, Merciel and others.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Jordan1017 said:


> I'll put myself out there and be honest. I paid $500 for my girl (which average is closer to $700-$1,000, and mutts $300-$600 it's crazy here.) We were looking for over a year, looked at some nice breeders, and in the end we couldn't get ourselves to spend the $2-4+k puppies go for out here. Mom and dad did have their testing done, which was important to us, but they did not need titles etc. We had the pick of the 5 females and speaking with the lady we quickly narrowed it to 3 then 2. We only spent about an hour socializing with them before picking out girl. She had an alert yet calm personality. While others fell over themselves to get to us, she was eager, but calm and alert. She's kept this personality so far and is quick at picking up the basics. We're starting basics and she's already gotten sit and the hand command down. We had wanted a sable, but the litter we looked at the parents were not tested and the pups just weren't what we were looking for.
> Now, we were at a park and a couple had a puppy similar in our girls age, just a couple weeks older (didn't have my girl since we only go for car drives till her vet gives her the clear.) They have him in training and when they mentioned they mentioned the breeder it sounded familiar and in fact was a top one and price reflects $4k+. I'm sure he'll grow up to become an amazing dog, but I'll be honest I'd take my girl and her calmness over him.
> Yes, I understand the importance of a quality breeder, but that's just too rich for my blood blood in the real world. Yes I could afford it if needed, but I don't want to spend that much for one when I have 4 children I'd rather put it towards. Will I care for our girl and meet her needs, bring her to the vet when needed etc. Yes, but that's a given since she's now ours and our responsibility now. Just because I wasn't willing to spend a large amount to get her does not mean she'll not be loved and cared for properly.


Here's the thing...I was in the same shoes as you, and didn't get a dog from titled parents. He was also $500 because I refused to pay $1000+ for "champion lines" or Schutzhund titles on the parents. I joined a GSD club...realized how lucky I got that I have what I have. Now...my boy is probably what you would consider not as calm as your girl...in reality that's probably the proper temperament for a GSD. But as a "pet" owner, you wanted something different, something that would fit YOUR life.

What you'll notice on this forum is that a lot of times people/breeders giving advice tend to expect you to make your life fit the dog. If you just want a calm, couch potato...that's really not what a GSD is supposed to be. If you find a breeder that produces those types of dogs...they're not really sticking to the standard, which is what many people care about preserving.

But don't take that the wrong way...I don't know if your dog has an improper temperament, or if the things you are seeing are just her age/maturity. But just because YOU prefer one type of personality over another, doesn't make it the correct personality for a GSD to have. Especially someone (like me) who has almost no experience with the breed (this is my first dog).


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## Jordan1017 (May 9, 2013)

Oh, she's definitely a puppy, but she has an amazing personality for so young. She has her indoor self and outdoor self and really listens to your body language. Yes she bites, but now is careful with our babies and if we tell her "leave it," she stops biting. 
Now we kinda have fit our current lifestyle around her. We've limited our outings to prevent her from being left alone too long as we do not want to promote anxiety with us leaving. We're counting down till she can join our trail walks as we're very into the outdoors and we've been more home bodies until she's ready to join us.


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## Jordan1017 (May 9, 2013)

I should add she is not our first. Our first before children was from a top of the line breeder. Our current girl reminds us a lot of her. Maybe we got lucky, but we weren't out just looking at one litter or picking any pup because we though it was cute. We did visit several and finally went with her.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

people will pay lots for a "designer dog" -- had a booth at Woofstock and there were people with cute-sounding names bragging about how much they paid and how long they waited. We used to have a pet shop in with in store puppy sales -- a gsd that looked poorly bred , 4 - 5 months of age , having missed valuable socialization time , forlorn -- had a tag of $2,500 -- yes he was bought for this amount , someone whipped out their Visa and that was that .
There are many GSD breed magazines and books at any PetsMart that will cover all the basics . Information is not hard to find .


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Welcome to the GSD/FAQ's for the first time owner - German Shepherd Dog Forums < I thought that is what this subforum was for. A lot in there written by Lucia too.....




Jack's Dad said:


> I like this idea.
> 
> A little about what the breed is in general. Short notes on such things as temperament, different lines. Health and temperament issues. Basic requirements of raising and training a GSD puppy. Understanding of common puppy characteristics like biting.
> 
> ...


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

[/QUOTE]There are many GSD breed magazines and books at any PetsMart that will cover all the basics . Information is not hard to find .[/QUOTE]

True, but why not provide that in one place on a GSD forum.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

There is one place, at least on this forum. 
Sheilah


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Welcome to the GSD/FAQ's for the first time owner - German Shepherd Dog Forums < I thought that is what this subforum was for. A lot in there written by Lucia too.....


Most of them just supply links to threads.

Once again I guess I'm supposed to apologize for trying to make it too simple for new people. 
We are back to, screw them, let them find out the same way us "pros" did. 

I've had dogs for over 50 years and had trouble figuring out the site.
Gwenhwyfair and Sheilah how long have you both had dogs and how long have you both been on this forum.

Just didn't seem like a bad idea to me to have a greetings, here is some basic information for you.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Oh good grief.

You took that way too personally.

I actually agree with Carmen, some people learn the hard way and some never at all and some do their research before hand I don't know what you can do about the first two categories?

...and I probably have handled and cared for more dogs in my 50 years then you have in your 50 years....I ain't THAT far behind you in age and I'm in the pet industry for a living. 




Jack's Dad said:


> Most of them just supply links to threads.
> 
> Once again I guess I'm supposed to apologize for trying to make it too simple for new people.
> We are back to, screw them, let them find out the same way us "pros" did.
> ...


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Oh good grief.
> 
> ...and I probably have handled and cared for more dogs in my 50 years then you have in your 50 years....I ain't THAT far behind you in age and I'm in the pet industry for a living.


 I'm sure you have and that is my point. The further you are removed from being a newbie and wanting or getting that first one the more difficult it is to relate. IMO only.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I know you mean really well. 

But you know what, the more I learn about dogs the more I realize I need to learn too so I'm still a newbie too! 

I just thought that we had that base covered in the subforum I linked.

It's all good ...from one old turnip off the truck to another. :thumbup:




Jack's Dad said:


> I'm sure you have and that is my point. The further you are removed from being a newbie and wanting or getting that first one the more difficult it is to relate. IMO only.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I'll tell you what scares me, kinda OT, but here goes,,just looking at a few threads here FROM newbies, I see alot of mis information , and rather ridiculous information.

Bothers me that new people read it, may take it to heart guess that's the internet for you


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I'll tell you what scares me, kinda OT, but here goes,,just looking at a few threads here FROM newbies, I see alot of mis information , and rather ridiculous information.
> 
> Bothers me that new people read it, may take it to heart guess that's the internet for you


It is not just the internet! The things I hear from people at our training field.... and even old "pros" at the local kennel club leave me seriously wondering.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I'll tell you what scares me, kinda OT, but here goes,,just looking at a few threads here FROM newbies, I see alot of mis information , and rather ridiculous information.
> 
> Bothers me that new people read it, may take it to heart guess that's the internet for you


The good part is that there is no shortage of people willing to correct inexperienced/uninformed/misinformed members 

And so, actually it can end up better than the bad advice someone might get from a neighbor who knows all about dogs, but has no opportunity to stand corrected.

EmeryGSDs thread about the Laser? Perfect example  She had No Clue it could be dangerous. Now everyone who reads the thread will know. Yay!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

J&M I do see people correct, which I can be guilty of as well, I just hope it is not confusing to a new person.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

JackandMattie said:


> The good part is that there is no shortage of people willing to correct inexperienced/uninformed/misinformed members
> 
> And so, actually it can end up better than the bad advice someone might get from a neighbor who knows all about dogs, but has no opportunity to stand corrected.
> 
> EmeryGSDs thread about the Laser? Perfect example  She had No Clue it could be dangerous. Now everyone who reads the thread will know. Yay!


That's a really good point.

I don't even open threads in the training forum, for basically the same reason I quit teaching classes in real life -- I don't have the emotional fortitude to deal with that whole scene anymore. I just don't. And honestly I'm not that awesome myself and constantly wonder why I should be telling other people what to do, which kind of sucks because a lot of really godawful "trainers" in the world are not plagued by self-doubt and merrily go on spouting complete nonsense. That makes me sad.

BUT!, it is an incredibly valuable service that others provide by going in there and correcting potentially damaging or counterproductive notions with more constructive/accurate advice. Because it helps not only the original posters, but everyone else who finds that thread later.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I'll tell you what scares me, kinda OT, but here goes,,just looking at a few threads here FROM newbies, I see alot of mis information , and rather ridiculous information.
> 
> Bothers me that new people read it, may take it to heart guess that's the internet for you


That was going to be my next thread but I can't handle another one right now if ever. 
I gave an example in the op. The individual who said GSDs are not inherently aggressive and that aggression is a fault. Said it in two threads. What is so bad about that to me is that if someone looking for a GSD reads that and assumes the GSD is a mellow laid back dog with no aggression they will be in for a rude awakening. Aggression and protectiveness is part of a normal GSD make up. People need to know that and how to handle it.

That is just one example of many. I corrected that person but was not responded to.

Mis-information can be worse than no information. IMO


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

How about....we go outside and play with our dogs!? I just came in from a play/training session~ feels so good to see enthusiastic training from Karlo!

One thing I do know, when you have a dog or dogs from poor breeding and then get one with solid nerves, you see the difference in choosing a good breeder vs the 'pet' breeders that has no clue about breeding. If you don't know what you don't know, you'll never see that difference.

round and round this thread has gone, just like so many others. I don't think anything will change, though all the newbies are more informed after spending some time on this site. 
There's so much information on all aspects of the breed or dogs in general. 

As long as people are open to learning and reading(comprehending) I think they'll be a better owner regardless.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

so if people that want pets are not well served by the gsd community and the people that want working dogs, if you believe recent threads, are not being well served by the gsd community then where are the 1000's of gsd puppies being born every year going....unhappy owners?


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Jack's Dad said:


> Once again I guess I'm supposed to apologize for trying to make it too simple for new people.
> We are back to, screw them, let them find out the same way us "pros" did.
> 
> I've had dogs for over 50 years and had trouble figuring out the site.
> ...


Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but I am surely not a "pro". I have never been a breeder, and competition of any kind is strictly a hobby. And I haven't even done it at that level for a few years. 

And you have had dogs longer than me. I won't be 50 until this summer. And my family didn't bring that first dog home until I was 3 or 4. Granted, it was a GSD! And my family was very involved in AKC conformation, but most of it was with another breed. I doubt that experience would make me a professional. You know how many GSDs I have owned myself? Exactly two. Well, three if you count Fenna. 

And, although I have been a member here for a little over 10 years, your posting statistics make you the more active member between the two of us. You post 2.58 times a day, compared to my .70 per day. So I have the longevity here, but you blast me out of the water with overall activity. Does that make you more "experienced"?

I don't have a "screw them" attitude towards newbies, either to the breed or this BB. I am just unclear what more you would have anyone do? The sad fact is that some people are going to make poor choices, regardless of how easily accessible good information is. But there are also people that will take that same information and run with it. That is a good thing. A very good thing. 

Jack's Dad, I am sorry you seem to be in such a bad mood currently. If it helps any, I am stuck at home with a horrible cold. I have a wonderful horse that I don't feel well enough to ride right now (despite the fact that I am finally using my outside rein) and dogs that would love to get some off leash time on the open range. And yet, here I sit! Too congested to breath through my nose, with horrible vertigo. 

Relax a little. We are all doing the best we can. Some days are better than others.
Sheilah


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I'll tell you what scares me, kinda OT, but here goes,,just looking at a few threads here FROM newbies, I see alot of mis information , and rather ridiculous information.
> 
> Bothers me that new people read it, may take it to heart guess that's the internet for you


I am right there with you! I wish experienced trainers would spend more time in the puppy behavior and training forums (and the behavior and aggression forum where the posts are about adult dogs). It is kind of scary.
Sheilah


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

The problem with basic information is that we'd all have to agree on it  To me that seems like the point of the forum...ask some questions and get different opinions. We don't all agree and we never will.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@ Sit stay....you want the more experienced trainers and handlers to spend more time in training and puppy forum???lol.....take a couple guesses why they don't and its not because of the OP. What happens when you try to enlighten the non experienced trainers or handler that post answers?.....been there done that as have many others....sometimes it is prudent to look, read, and smile.


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## keiko (Dec 4, 2011)

One of the most important things one can do is find a reputable breeder, if not the most important. They won't sell to someone who can't handle it, which solves 99% of the problems of owning the wrong type of dog.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

what i see that happens a lot is, a person makes a quick choice and goes out and gets a gsd, then as years or months go by they read the forum, they read and read and read about breeders and lines etc.. 

Then they start to think that the dog they got is not the kind of gsd they really wanted. I have seen this happen 100x I am sure many are guilty for it when it comes to your first gsd. People realize there are certain traits/bloodlines/temperaments they really wanted and certain breeders they prefer after all. BY that time it is too late.

This is why it is so important for newbies to do it right the first time around. A gsd lives 10 plus years.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

cliffson1 said:


> @ Sit stay....you want the more experienced trainers and handlers to spend more time in training and puppy forum???lol.....take a couple guesses why they don't and its not because of the OP. What happens when you try to enlighten the non experienced trainers or handler that post answers?.....been there done that as have many others....sometimes it is prudent to look, read, and smile.


Oh, I know why there aren't more of you there! Believe me. I know. It still makes me sad to see so much crappy information being passed around, unquestioned. 
Sheilah


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

pets4life said:


> what i see that happens a lot is, a person makes a quick choice and goes out and gets a gsd, then as years or months go by they read the forum, they read and read and read about breeders and lines etc..
> 
> Then they start to think that the dog they got is not the kind of gsd they really wanted. I have seen this happen 100x I am sure many are guilty for it when it comes to your first gsd. People realize there are certain traits/bloodlines/temperaments they really wanted and certain breeders they prefer after all. BY that time it is too late.
> 
> This is why it is so important for newbies to do it right the first time around. A gsd lives 10 plus years.


I don't disagree with you at all, but going off on yet another tangent...

In ages long past, I used to belong to a jewelry forum. One of the recurring patterns on that forum was that somebody would come on the board wanting to know about an heirloom piece or an engagement ring or some other sentimental piece of jewelry they owned. The more they read, though, and the more pictures of other people's jewelry they saw, the more discontented they'd become. It was the old "grass is greener" effect in action, and sometimes it was honestly pretty sad -- you'd see somebody gradually become unhappy with a piece that, while maybe not worth tens of thousands on the resale market, had originally held tremendous sentimental value for them. And instead of appreciating that, they'd feel bad about it and go chasing after what other people had.

I feel like maybe something of that same effect is in play here w/r/t "[t]hen they start to think that the dog they got is not the kind of gsd they really wanted" -- even if the OP wanted a family pet and not a high-octane SchH3/OTCH/MACH prospect.

I don't know. Again, I don't feel like I'm adding any new insight here. I just think maybe some of that is due to the distorting effect of seeing people make posts about things that the readers may not have experienced in person and thus may not be able to judge for themselves. Because the truth is, in real life, a lot of people feel pretty darn uncomfortable wearing a 3-carat diamond in everyday life.

It's easy to want something in the abstract, especially if somebody else has one and spends all day talking about how great it is... but without real-life experience, actually getting it might just turn out to be another expensive mistake.

I guess I'm thinking about that because I keep thinking "gosh I'd really like a working line GSD, I bet that would be _so much_ easier to train than my crazy muttpuppy Pongu" but you know what, I have never seen one in person. Never. They just don't compete in the venues I do. I'm going out to a Schutzhund trial in a couple of weeks specifically so that I can see some at work, but right now? Right now I just want one based on forum chatter.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

merci I really dont consider sport work tbh JMHO 

A sch3 breeding can be just as bad as a un title breeding to me 

I feel it depends all on the goal and what each dog is producing for what purpose

that is just my own personal opinion.

I would never want or buy a dog just because it had titled parents that were just sport monsters, id rather go and get a nice rescue instead tbh.

As more time goes by the less I look at titles and more the whole picture.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Oh sure, and that does seem to be the best way to do it.

Really I'm just saying that if you come to these boards as a relatively inexperienced person (like me!) and you read all these glowing testimonials about legendary dogs of yore, and/or strongly opinionated views on what is or isn't a good breeder, then it's easy to become discontent about what you have in the here and now, and long for something that you don't actually know anything about and which might not actually be appropriate for your own personal circumstances.

(And of course when I say "you" what I really mean is "I," because as ever I am so-egocentrically just talking about myself here.)


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

I think Andy should do a new topic each week. :thumbup:


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Yeah, I wish qbchutto and robin would chime in more often too. 



cliffson1 said:


> @ Sit stay....you want the more experienced trainers and handlers to spend more time in training and puppy forum???lol.....take a couple guesses why they don't and its not because of the OP. What happens when you try to enlighten the non experienced trainers or handler that post answers?.....been there done that as have many others....sometimes it is prudent to look, read, and smile.


 .


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I came here looking for SchH dog specifically because I was introduced to the sport by my OB trainer who participated in SchH. It was mostly to find a breeder and which dogs would be suitable. I hadn't thought about it from the perspective you mention, you make some very good points. Well said.





Merciel said:


> Oh sure, and that does seem to be the best way to do it.
> 
> Really I'm just saying that if you come to these boards as a relatively inexperienced person (like me!) and you read all these glowing testimonials about legendary dogs of yore, and/or strongly opinionated views on what is or isn't a good breeder, then it's easy to become discontent about what you have in the here and now, and long for something that you don't actually know anything about and which might not actually be appropriate for your own personal circumstances.
> 
> (And of course when I say "you" what I really mean is "I," because as ever I am so-egocentrically just talking about myself here.)


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## Jrnabors (Sep 7, 2012)

Wow, this was a long drawn out thread. I don't have time to read them all, but I would say that some good comments were made all around from the few I read. I'll be the first to admit that we didn't get the right dog for us, but I think the big question in my mind, and perhaps this may have been covered during this thread, is whether or not a healthy, pure bred GSD from any of the current American lines is well suited as a family pet anymore. In other words, sometimes I wonder if it's not a question of breeder, but of the breed itself. Can you get a gentle giant anymore, or are all these dogs suited only for the protection sports and professions? If not, then that may be why people seeking pets aren't finding what they want.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

They were never meant to be gentle giants


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

Jrnabors said:


> ..whether or not a healthy, pure bred GSD from any of the current American lines is well suited as a family pet anymore. In other words, sometimes I wonder if it's not a question of breeder, but of the breed itself. Can you get a gentle giant anymore, or are all these dogs suited only for the protection sports and professions? If not, then that may be why people seeking pets aren't finding what they want.


There are pet homes...and there are pet homes. Many people who have pet GSDs are totally happy with them. But as Xeph said above, GSDs were never meant to be gentle giants. Read up on the history of the breed. There are many other breeds out there that are more suitable for your gentle giant wishes.

As it is, 40,000 GSD puppies are registered with the AKC every year. Many are not even registered or with different registries. That's a lot of puppies. Too many IMHO. As a breed aficionado I wish that people who want a Lab wearing GSD clothes would simply get a Lab. They usually make wonderful family dogs. A GSD on the other hand, needs an above average pet dog owner just as they are above average dogs. 

As has been explained in many threads in this forum, GSDs make great pets precisely because they are bred to be working dogs. But a great pet for one home can be a nightmare for another home. And as we also see in this forum, some people should not even own a dog. It's all about the match. Be honest with yourself if a GSD is the right dog for you, and do your research work in selecting a breeder.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

Xeph said:


> They were never meant to be gentle giants


nonsense. having grown up with gsds, born in 57 and have always had one or two.. all of our shepherds were gentle loving pets, protective when needed accepting of friends and the list goes on. could they have done shutzhund, maybe, never tried. they were all well behaved, well trained and more than happy with hikes, walks and playing in the backyard. gsd are supposed to be all around utility dogs.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

A good, hard, versatile working dog is NOT a gentle giant. Others are right, people want a soft happy go lucky breed and that is not what the breed is suppose to be. They are breeding dogs out of standard and that IMO is a disservice to the breed. I expect berlin to be a GREAT pet. I also understand what he is and what he requires as far as handling, training, and energy requirements.

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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> nonsense.


Have you READ the history of the breed? Your anecdotes do not supersede their history.

Utility dog does not translate to "gentle giant". Heck the GSD is supposed to be a MEDIUM sized breed. Nothing giant about them.


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## Muneraven (Sep 4, 2012)

Jrnabors said:


> Wow, this was a long drawn out thread. I don't have time to read them all, but I would say that some good comments were made all around from the few I read. I'll be the first to admit that we didn't get the right dog for us, but I think the big question in my mind, and perhaps this may have been covered during this thread, is whether or not a healthy, pure bred GSD from any of the current American lines is well suited as a family pet anymore. In other words, sometimes I wonder if it's not a question of breeder, but of the breed itself. Can you get a gentle giant anymore, or are all these dogs suited only for the protection sports and professions? If not, then that may be why people seeking pets aren't finding what they want.


GSDs would not be my go-to breed for a gentle giant, and I say that as the owner of a 93 lb gentle sweetheart of a GSD. My GSD-Belgian mix Paynter is NOT like that: He is far more typically GSD intense than Jaeger.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I just can't see how someone can be so insecure to become unhappy with their own dog just because of some virtual forum opinions. I love reading information re lines, breeders, breeders, history, training here, look at pictures, admire 'the great dogs'  but I still think my dog is the best thing since sliced bread even though I can see the faults/weaknesses. I'm not perfect either. Maybe, that's the problem, people want to get a GSD to boost their self-esteem? In that case there is nothing any forum can do.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I like this "As has been explained in many threads in this forum, GSDs make great pets precisely because they are bred to be working dogs"

Breeders , look for balance and stability , strong confident dogs and the GSD can do a full days work and / or be a happy companion.

Little twist is language . The title of the thread is "people who want pets are not well served" , but that should not be turned on its head and become "CATERED to" . There should not be a class of GSD bred specifically for pet and all the variants that could end up in being custom ordered designer GSD because when critical components of the GSD breed standard are neglected, amplified, or diminished, in other words not correct and not in balance then you have the problems that so many pet owners with distress posts end up with.

You have to decide whether the breed is for you .


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

If people want the "GSD look" with the gentle giant temperament, there are actually "designer" breeds out there like the King Shepherd and the Shiloh shepherd to cater to this market. At least, I give credit to these people for deliberately trying to create a new breed to fit their preferences by mixing GSD blood with other bigger or more docile breeds instead of forcing the breed itself to become a Frankenstein assemblage of sometimes conflicting temperaments. 

For example, GSDs were herding dogs and home protection dogs from the beginning which means they have to be alert and watchful. (Anyone who has ever tried HGH or AKC C herding knows that the dog is watching every twitch of 25 to 250 sheep for possibly hours.) An alert and watchful animal means it is sensitive to and processes a deluge of environmental stimuli and information. It is high bandwidth so to speak. For this high bandwidth dog to not become overwhelmed to stress by stimuli it has to have solid nerves. Take away the nerve base and you have an anxious, insecure, fearful, highly stressed, sometimes unhealthy animal. Pets as much as working dogs need this nerve base. However a constantly alert animal can also be a challenge to a low energy pet home.

Add the drives and aggression, again necessary and designed into the breed from the beginning and it adds to the challenge. However, take away the drives, the aggression, and the watchful, alert nature and do you still have a GSD?

I would say not, better to get another breed.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

To those of us with GSDs, we see our dogs as average sized, medium to large dogs, not _giants. _To people with beagles, and spaniels, and small dogs, GSDs are large to Giant dogs. They may look at a lab or even a newf or an American Irish Setter, all of which can be as tall or taller than our dogs, and put them in the large dog category, and put our dogs in the Giant dog category because of their upright ears, reputation and presence. 

GSDs do not _look_ medium-sized even when they are within the standard. And, even people within the GSD community are not all versed in the standard. 

When the captain set up the breed, it was because the farmers in Germany were not well to do. They could not own multiple dogs for multiple tasks. The French would have small herding to move livestock and a large dog to protect them. Von Stephanitz wanted a breed that could herd and guard, and then come home and play with the children and sleep with his ears open to protect the farm at night. 

In his book you will see pictures of children having a tea party with the family GSD sitting at table with them. These dogs were _intended_ to be family pets from the get go. There are GSDs out there with weak nerves that are not good as family pets as they are a liability. There are also GSDs out there that are not good as family pets, as they have insane drives and energy levels that do not lend themselves to living in a home setting without ridiculous amounts of physical and mental energy. 

A dog that is conditioned, to run around the sheep, from the time it is young will the build the muscle and stamina required for that if their structure supports it, or they will break down. They do not need to be super landsharks with no off-switch as puppies to be working dogs. 

If you work with your dog daily, it will build that kind of energy needed to accompany you -- that is across the lines. Can you take a show dog out of the kennel and run it on sheep for 14-16 hours the next day? No. You could not do this with a working line dog or a German Showline dog either that is not accustomed to it. 

A dog that cannot settle enough to be a pet isn't any more correct than a dog with weak nerves. Working line dogs are not the only lines that can work. Not all show line dogs have weak nerves. Not all working lines have no off switch. 

I think more and more people are thinking dogs that are on on on on on, are correct, and therefore not right for most homes. I think the founder would have prefered dogs that are always ready to go. And those dogs can adapt to most pet homes as well as working homes. I think the only reason many people are not suited to own a GSD is that their temperament and their expectations for the dog are often diametrically opposed, and they lack leadership qualities and canine understanding. 

It has nothing to do with whether or not they can run the dog for five miles every morning. You should not NEED to run any miles every morning. Retired people with serious health concerns can successfully raise and live with a good GSD. If they have the qualities required by the dog to be the master, then they do not need anything else, including training classes, tons of socialization, NILIF, training collars, and morning runs. 

Any GSD that is not a complete basket case when it comes to nerves, and does not have insane energy levels, can become a good pet if the owners have the qualities needed for leadership. I suppose that we press training, because training is a good way to improve the bond between the dog and the handler. And we press NILIF, because it encourages some consistency in how a dog is managed, which can improve the bond between dog and handler. And we even encourage the use of training collars, because they give the user the tools necessary to get the dog out and about, exercise under control, without a fight with the handler or abuse by the handler, both of which would be much worse than a properly placed correction before behavior becomes overwhelming. 

But I don't know if you can train the qualities people need to be the master. I don't think that if you don't have it, you are out of luck. But I think that it comes with experience, and often quicker with a less stellar dog than with an excellent dog.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Yup, they were not bred for police or military only.....

"Although untrained in puppy hood, nevertheless obedient to the slightest nod when at this master's side; but when left to himself, the maddest rascal, the wildest ruffian and incorrigible provoker of strife. Never idle, always on the go; _well disposed to harmless people, but no cringer, mad about children and always in love_." ~ Max Von Stephanitz on Horand von Grafrath 




selzer said:


> To those of us with GSDs, we see our dogs as average sized, medium to large dogs, not _giants. _To people with beagles, and spaniels, and small dogs, GSDs are large to Giant dogs. They may look at a lab or even a newf or an American Irish Setter, all of which can be as tall or taller than our dogs, and put them in the large dog category, and put our dogs in the Giant dog category because of their upright ears, reputation and presence.
> 
> GSDs do not _look_ medium-sized even when they are within the standard. And, even people within the GSD community are not all versed in the standard.
> 
> ...


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## gsdlover91 (Jul 21, 2012)

Well put, selzer.



selzer said:


> To those of us with GSDs, we see our dogs as average sized, medium to large dogs, not _giants. _To people with beagles, and spaniels, and small dogs, GSDs are large to Giant dogs. They may look at a lab or even a newf or an American Irish Setter, all of which can be as tall or taller than our dogs, and put them in the large dog category, and put our dogs in the Giant dog category because of their upright ears, reputation and presence.
> 
> GSDs do not _look_ medium-sized even when they are within the standard. And, even people within the GSD community are not all versed in the standard.
> 
> ...





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## iamcarleen (May 29, 2013)

As both a new member of the forum and new GSD owner, I found this thread particularly interesting for a couple of reasons. 

First, when I began looking for a puppy, I consulted my vet on the breeds that he thought would be most helpful to me as a service dog because that was the primary reason for my getting a dog in the first place no matter what the feline members of my household think. He knows me, my cats, my health issues, and best of all, knows dog breeds far better than I. 

After he gave me three recommendations and I made my decision, I began looking for a puppy because I wanted to learn along with the dog. And so the search for a breeder began. I did my homework and contacted four breeders in my state, sending each one the same email explaining that this would be my first puppy ever, that I wanted a puppy with oodles of personality, that I preferred a female and planned to spay her before her first heat, but most of all, my puppy would be trained to be a service dog for me. All four breeders had puppies available at the time I sent the emails. I got two responses, and only one of them addressed the service dog issue.

Not only did my puppy's breeder win me over by acknowledging my need for a service dog, but she took the time to tell me that my puppy's dam was a trained therapy dog and that she had a puppy in mind for me already! Even better, the breeder is a vet and her brother is a neurosurgeon, so she is familiar with my brain issue. She chose Maisey for me, stayed in contact with me about her until she was old enough for me to pick up (the breeder lives 85 miles away and was quite accommodating to my need to have a someone bring me such a distance as my hubby was in Egypt at the time), and went the distance in general to make sure that I knew everything I needed to in order to make a smooth transition with Maisey.

I think pet owners must take responsibility for clearly explaining to breeders what they want in a pet like I did, and breeders must respond to them like Maisey's did. 

Just my two cents.


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## MelissaRz (May 31, 2013)

I was so happy to find this thread. In fact, I just joined the Forum to add to this discussion.

I am the person you're speaking of. Well, sort of. My brother-in-law is looking for "just a pet GSD". Does he know anything about selecting a reputable breeder? No, not at all. That's why he sought my help. Along with my mother, from childhood, I was a conformation exhibitor, breeder, junior handler then owner-handler, and groomer of Bichon Frise. A far cry from GSD, for sure!! But he sought my help, because he literally knows NOTHING about finding a quality puppy. In fact, he emailed me a picture of a puppy he was interested in, and mentioned that the website he went to was in one state, but the puppy was in a different state for some reason??? I looked at briefly, and could see within seconds, it was a broker website, and the pups were from BYBs and puppy mills!!!

I've been out of the "dog game" for years, and even when I was up on my game, there is a huge difference between working breeds and Bichons! In fact, when I recently was interested in purchase a Doberman Pinscher, I went to DobermanTalk.com and did MONTHS of reading. However, on DobermanTalk, people are a lot more frank about what breeders are good and reputable, and what breeders are wolves in sheeps clothing!! As it turned out, between watching various rescues on Facebook and postings on DobermanTalk, I found a beautiful, loving, smart 8 week old puppy and adopted her. Is she conformationally correct? Absolutely not, LOL, but she IS "just a pet". And did that mean that I was not willing to pay the $2,500 - $3,000 for a puppy from a good breeder? Absolutely not! I may wind up paying that in vet bills and more in the future, as I don't know the stock she came from, and her parents obviously were not health tested. But I saved one beautiful, loving animal from being euth'd.

In my brother-in-law's case, just because he's looking for a "just a pet" doesn't mean that he's not willing to pay good money for his pup either! The pup in the email was going for $2,700. What it DOES mean, is that at 65 years old, he is not looking for a working dog or a dog to show. Yes, these dogs are born to work you say, but let's face it -- not all dogs will fit the requirements! We had 70+ puppies over the years, but not ALL were meant to be in the show ring! When someone is "just looking for a pet", they come here just like I did, looking for assistance in finding a decent, caring breeder to buy their puppy from. Let's face it -- the people here know more about GSDs than anyone WE know -- isn't that the whole idea of the forum is for people educated in the breed to talk about different issues? Doesn't that include helping well-meaning newbies find the right resources??

When I say we're looking for a "good and reputable breeder" what does that mean exactly? It means a breeder that ISN'T just throwing two dogs of the same breed together just to line their pockets with money. It's a person that tries to better the breed by combining two HEALTH TESTED dogs with complimentary physical and temperament attributes in order to try to make "the perfect dog" whether that means conformationally or working-wise. The people that care about the homes the dogs go into. That try to match up the personality of the pup with the lifestyle the owner has. A person that you can turn to, if experiencing something with the pup, whether it's a temporary problem, an on-going issue or simply a question. Yes, a health guarantee should always be a part of a deal with a reputable breeder too. (Although, let's face it, once you've grown fond of your new puppy, who is actually going to return it because there's some kind of defect suddenly found?? That's just not realistic. We never had ANY puppies ever returned!)

As someone with experience in dogs, but primarily with Bichon Frise, I was completely overwhelmed when looking at some of the breeder websites listed on the GSDCA site. I am doing my best in understanding all of this in the short time I have to find him a decent breeder (I am at home with a bad back and laying on the floor for the next few days) because I know he wants a pup, but has ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA how to find a QUALITY pup. If he was already almost sucked in by a broker, what will be next, Craigs List?? Will he spend months or years learning lines and pedigrees in order to find a pup that will be a companion only to two mature adults with grandchildren that will come over?? NO. That's why I was hoping to get a simple push in the right direction for a low-drive, smart, stable, pup out of tested parents, with a breeder that will help with any questions he might have.

I'm not asking anyone to reinvent the wheel. Perhaps your deep involvement in the breed makes some of you overly-analytical and elitist. Jack's Dad has summed up my perspective exactly. If this forum isn't the proper place to start a search for a good breeder, and you don't have YEARS to figure everything out on your own (and that's next to impossible for a newbie), where IS the right place to start??


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## nhstadt (Aug 20, 2012)

I see a lot of well my dog is this line and my dog is that line and a whole lot of you need to pay thousands of dollars to get a good dog on here. Also see a lot of GSD's don't make good house pets, not good family dogs, etc. . It's all garbage. I got mine from a rescue for 150 bucks, I have ABSOLUTELY no idea where he came from or what his lines are. He may be a 1500 dollar dog that got loose. he very well may have been a puppy mill dog. All I know is He's a great dog, he does what I ask of him most of the time, He's super gentle with kids, but very courageous and protective of his "people", knows when its time to run and play and when i need him to chill out. His structure is fine except for a busted rib he picked up along the way before i got him. I didn't read all 84 pages of this thread but I got the jist. All I'm saying is some of you people need to get off your high horses.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I would not spay before a first heat --- but that's another topic.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Go read the training and pet sections, and all the stories and problems that are constantly being posted, either you think these posts are fables....or it all isn't garbage!


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

Have had GSD's most of my life and to me a GSD is the perfect family pet if bred according to standard, IF the family is looking for active family member,(not just a dog to keep in the yard, feed and say hello to now and then)
They should be happy to actively participate in an active family life, walks, swimming, camping, protecting from intruders, give a lick to a crying child and perceptive enough to tell a threat from a non threat, easily and eager to be trained. 

I think our culture tends to want extremes; bigger, faster, meaner, prettier, and this sucks for a dog that was meant to be "jack of all trades, master of none" Many breeders cater to the market, and breed for one extreme or another and the dogs suffer.

But there are many breeders that do breed for the correct standard of temperament and health and we need to steer people to those breeders.


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## TxQuax (Jul 13, 2013)

Jack's Dad said:


> I've seen numerous threads where new people are trying to find a decent dog from a good breeder.
> 
> There is a thread running now, where the price is too low. Must not be a good dog. Titles, might mean two dogs thrown together just because of there titles. May not be a good dog. Then there is the whole "lines argument".
> 
> ...




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