# Training question



## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

I'm at the stage with my dog in her obedience ( off leash ) where I am phasing out any lures previously used. So, since I am not involved in any performance/sports classes or formal training classes with the dog, I tend to try and use tactics I see others in here use and discuss. Today, I decided to do something which I have no idea if it is good or bad and was hoping for some opinions. 

During a game of frisbee ...we took a quick break and I used the frisbee as a lure briefly and ran her through an obedience drill...I then decided to give her the frisbee and let her carry it while we then ran through the same drill..she surprised me and performed at about 80%..not failing anything but just a wee bit sloppier than normal...she was carrying the frisbee the entire time.

Good, bad or of no consequence?


SuperG


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## CountryGirl01 (Dec 10, 2014)

Bump, I'm surprised some dog training guru hasn't piped in yet. 

I have no advice but I believe she was only slow due to it being a new way of doing her exercise. I bet she will improve given time.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

Dogs like to carry objects. Not necessarily back home. My present dog Lucy plays with other dogs, runs in a pack with them, jumps barriers, the latest - she tried to protect me - all with her ball in her mouth. That which you have described indicates your dog's intense interest in the object, she didn't want to leave it. That fact that she takes on other tasks at the same time just says much in her favour. She was sloppy, probably, because it was first time experience.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Sounds similar to rewarding with tug play.

That's how I taught Autumn to fetch Frisbee, the reward for returning the Frisbee was a game of tug which I would let her win on occasion then she would push the toy back at me to tug more. Made brining the toy to me fun for her. Now she enjoys Frisbee but we don't always play tug, she enjoys chasing and catching it mid-air.

Done correctly with good timing, good!

Hopefully some of our experienced trainers will give a better outline of this process.

Too bad you can't join an OB class with a good GSD savvy trainer?




SuperG said:


> I'm at the stage with my dog in her obedience ( off leash ) where I am phasing out any lures previously used. So, since I am not involved in any performance/sports classes or formal training classes with the dog, I tend to try and use tactics I see others in here use and discuss. Today, I decided to do something which I have no idea if it is good or bad and was hoping for some opinions.
> 
> During a game of frisbee ...we took a quick break and I used the frisbee as a lure briefly and ran her through an obedience drill...I then decided to give her the frisbee and let her carry it while we then ran through the same drill..she surprised me and performed at about 80%..not failing anything but just a wee bit sloppier than normal...she was carrying the frisbee the entire time.
> 
> ...


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

When working with a visible lure, you are at risk of the dog only want to preform when you have the lure in sight/available. If you do decide to work with a frisbee as a lure, I wouldn't give it until she performed the desired behavior. 80% of "not failing" is failing (IMHO). If you reward sloppy behavior, you'll get sloppy behavior.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

SuperG said:


> I'm at the stage with my dog in her obedience ( off leash ) where I am phasing out any lures previously used. So, since I am not involved in any performance/sports classes or formal training classes with the dog, I tend to try and use tactics I see others in here use and discuss. Today, I decided to do something which I have no idea if it is good or bad and was hoping for some opinions.
> 
> During a game of frisbee ...we took a quick break and I used the frisbee as a lure briefly and ran her through an obedience drill...I then decided to give her the frisbee and let her carry it while we then ran through the same drill..she surprised me and performed at about 80%..not failing anything but just a wee bit sloppier than normal...she was carrying the frisbee the entire time.
> 
> ...


She worked for you when she had the frisbee in her mouth, because that's what she's been taught. Look at it this way...if you got paid for the week on Monday, would you work as hard knowing you had already been paid?

On the other hand, if she'll still work at that level, then I think it's time to take away the lure and start proofing the behaviors, correcting when necessary. Up the anty on her.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

I like the responses....thanks.

I believe GSD Forums allows for me to ask a follow-up question ( just like those reporters at a WH briefing that try and ask 10 of them at once)

Here is what my mind was thinking regarding my original 1000 word question...

Since the dog is addicted to the frisbee...used as a tug toy every other 5-7 retrieves..it was also used as the bait held across my chest with my right arm or other places for many a training session...the frisbee is a super premium reward...SO..as I wean her off the "rewards" ..by letting her have possession of the prize..and she doesn't have to do squat to get it because I let her carry it, I was kind of thinking it was the best way to test her obedience without baiting her....I mean she does have the frisbee and could completely tell me shove off and do as she pleases. Since this was the first time I tried this...I kind of expected her to disregard our training to a greater degree...so I was pleasantly surprised.

SuperG


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Yeah, I think it shows that she's learned the commands. She's slower because she doesn't have that anticipation of getting a reward. Its almost like she's,,,,,,,,,,, working for you! I could be wrong, someone else may make the point that she's protecting you from the frisbee because you forced her into a position of leadership, but I'd be content with she's paying attention.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Don't kid yourself....these Kong frisbees have been known to do unspeakable horrors to unwitting humans....you just don't hear about it on the national news....


SuperG


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Ohh, you didnt say it was one of those new "kong" frisbees. Those are behavior modifiers for sure. They just play with the old Whamo's out of love.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think she may have been down a little is because her brain was split too. The one side that said "let's play!" was arguing with the side that said "let's work". 

jax would only work for those stupid kong frisbees. So I started leaving it off to the side. When she did what I wanted, I released her to go get it. That way, she had to focus on me but still work for her reward.

And anyone who has ever been whacked with those stupid things on a bare leg while the dog is killing it can tell you how dangerous they are!


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> jax would only work for those stupid kong frisbees. So I started leaving it off to the side. When she did what I wanted, I released her to go get it. That way, she had to focus on me but still work for her reward.


You just described the power of anticipation...I weigh that factor in the overall equation.


SuperG


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> And anyone who has ever been whacked with those stupid things on a bare leg while the dog is killing it can tell you how dangerous they are!



They are fond of killing the Kongbee...never seen it fight back...but they sure do enjoy it...so do I.


SuperG


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

LOL!

We use Chuckit frisbee for our Aussie. They are soft and she loves them and they are far more human friendly.

Down side, I don't know how well they would hold up to a GSD, may not last.

Cracks me up when Autumn grabs it by the middle, flips the hole over her nose and runs with it encircling her little snout peeping through the middle. 















SuperG said:


> Don't kid yourself....these Kong frisbees have been known to do unspeakable horrors to unwitting humans....you just don't hear about it on the national news....
> 
> 
> SuperG


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

P.s. Didn't mean to sound like you shouldn't ask questions here. Just sounds like you are wanting to up your training and relationship with your dog so I thought I would nudge you in the direction of a class with an effective trainer. I found sometimes the advice here can get confusing especially when I didn't have a foundation of understanding regarding some of the concepts discussed. Now that I've learned more from trainers IRL the advice given here makes more sense (from people like David Winners, Baillif, Jax and others who have some training miles under their belts). Part of the art of getting help from this forum is learning to recognize who knows what they are talking about and who is ....not. .


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> P.s. Didn't mean to sound like you shouldn't ask questions here. Just sounds like you are wanting to up your training and relationship with your dog so I thought I would nudge you in the direction of a class with an effective trainer. I found sometimes the advice here can get confusing especially when I didn't have a foundation of understanding regarding some of the concepts discussed. Now that I've learned more from trainers IRL the advice given here makes more sense (from people like David Winners, Baillif, Jax and others who have some training miles under their belts). Part of the art of getting help from this forum is learning to recognize who knows what they are talking about and who is ....not. .


You didn't sound like anything other than being helpful...and yes..there are some wonderfully smart handler/trainers in here..once you cull through all the available opinions.

SuperG


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## Prager (Jul 3, 2011)

SuperG said:


> I'm at the stage with my dog in her obedience ( off leash ) where I am phasing out any lures previously used.
> 
> 
> SuperG


 You can not faze it out. If you stop using reinforcing stimulus, then the dog will work less and less as you witnessed and eventually it will stop working. You can look at this as a flywheel action. Now and then you need to add to the flywheel some energy so that it keeps on rolling. The same way you need to recondition dog in order to continue to benefit from the conditioning. Older the dog is and more repetition he has less reconditioning he will need but yet it will need it but he still will need it now and then.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Prager said:


> You can not faze it out. If you stop using reinforcing stimulus, then the dog will work less and less as you witnessed and eventually it will stop working. You can look at this as a flywheel action. Now and then you need to add to the flywheel some energy so that it keeps on rolling. The same way you need to recondition dog in order to continue to benefit from the conditioning. Older the dog is and more repetition he has less reconditioning he will need but yet it will need it but he still will need it now and then.


Prager, you are a crafty devil...aren't you ...LOL..

I sense you are employing a Socratic method of sorts on me. If, as you have said....the dog is working for the human...phasing out the "lure" means the human and established relationship has to diminish which makes the dog change it's motivation....less likely to work for the human. However, as you have also suggested ....petty rewards which do not induce the dog to work for the human but help educate the dog as to the proper behavior...if continued...result in a dog working for itself. If these rewards are phased out then a diminished result will occur as well. I'm guessing by the way you phrased the question or response, you hope I am in agreement....thus contradicting myself and allowing you to say this will never happen if the dog works for the human rather than a petty morsel or toy ( Pez dispenser)....since I have taken a route which does not agree with your model of the dog "working for me". I have to make mention of videos I have watched of many dogs performing in the IPO discipline...I basically see 2 types...one being the dogs which are performing with anticipation of the reward...and the reward might be either scenario perhaps....working for itself or working for the human....but they exhibit a more confident energized approach and performance. The other type I have seen performing is working for itself due to it's conditioning which is based on " I don't want to feel the wrath if I don't do as I am expected"....you know, you've seen them...ears down, head motions which indicate anticipation of correction at a sticking point which they struggled through previously but yet still perform....the tiniest bit of hesitation due to second guessing it's actions. I am stuck with what I have, since I have taken the petty rewards further than you might suggest is necessary and have failed to build the relationship into the dog working for me.....maybe so...but the learned behavior is there and expectations can still be maintained....albeit a new hurdle perhaps. Anticipation seems to be a strong element in a dog's motivation, one which makes them perform with more of an outward confidence which is apparent. I agree that a stimulus of sorts needs to exist...whatever form it might take....some are more productive than others ...even if it appears they all get the job done.


SuperG


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

You guys are still going on about this. 

Socrates huh?

Well my dogs love their 'pez dispenser' even when it's empty and I dare someone to prove me wrong on that. 

After all is it not mere shadows on the cave wall? (Plato)


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Shadows on the cave wall which when brought full circle contradict themselves....

All in all, I can't really argue with Prager's last reply....there has to be some benefit one way or another...I'd be a liar to suggest otherwise. 

I think I worded my question improperly by suggesting I wanted to phase out the reinforcement...meaning at some point completely removing it. I guess I am more interested in getting the same performance with less inducement required. Baliff's mention in another thread regarding this situation likened the fading to a "slot machine"...which also lined up to Steve Strom's suggestion of utilizing anticipation. Both make sense to me.

I never had a Pez dispenser as a child...they scared me...kind of like clowns.

SuperG


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## Prager (Jul 3, 2011)

SuperG said:


> Prager, you are a crafty devil...aren't you ...LOL..
> 
> I sense you are employing a Socratic method of sorts on me. If, as you have said....the dog is working for the human...phasing out the "lure" means the human and established relationship has to diminish which makes the dog change it's motivation....less likely to work for the human. However, as you have also suggested ....petty rewards which do not induce the dog to work for the human but help educate the dog as to the proper behavior...if continued...result in a dog working for itself. If these rewards are phased out then a diminished result will occur as well. I'm guessing by the way you phrased the question or response, you hope I am in agreement....thus contradicting myself and allowing you to say this will never happen if the dog works for the human rather than a petty morsel or toy ( Pez dispenser)....since I have taken a route which does not agree with your model of the dog "working for me". I have to make mention of videos I have watched of many dogs performing in the IPO discipline...I basically see 2 types...one being the dogs which are performing with anticipation of the reward...and the reward might be either scenario perhaps....working for itself or working for the human....but they exhibit a more confident energized approach and performance. The other type I have seen performing is working for itself due to it's conditioning which is based on " I don't want to feel the wrath if I don't do as I am expected"....you know, you've seen them...ears down, head motions which indicate anticipation of correction at a sticking point which they struggled through previously but yet still perform....the tiniest bit of hesitation due to second guessing it's actions. I am stuck with what I have, since I have taken the petty rewards further than you might suggest is necessary and have failed to build the relationship into the dog working for me.....maybe so...but the learned behavior is there and expectations can still be maintained....albeit a new hurdle perhaps. Anticipation seems to be a strong element in a dog's motivation, one which makes them perform with more of an outward confidence which is apparent. I agree that a stimulus of sorts needs to exist...whatever form it might take....some are more productive than others ...even if it appears they all get the job done.
> 
> ...


 You can not make the dog to work for you by "fazing" the rewards out. And you can not faze rewards out. 
And to suggest that the dog who works for you must be scared of you is quite ridiculous and signifies that you do not know how it is done. And yes I am trying to make you think. 
Oh and I do not have single model of " dog working for me" as you suggest. It is just one of the ways I train the dog in this case to have correct relationship with me and not just with the toy. I am not against competition work for reward training . There is a purpose for it, but I would not mix it up with developing relationship with my dog. That is like , as I said before, the man with hammer who sees everywhere nails or like to try to stick a round peg into square or oval or hexagonal hole.


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## Prager (Jul 3, 2011)

SuperG said:


> Shadows on the cave wall which when brought full circle contradict themselves....
> 
> All in all, I can't really argue with Prager's last reply....there has to be some benefit one way or another...I'd be a liar to suggest otherwise.
> 
> ...


Good post. Funny too.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Prager said:


> And to suggest that the dog who works for you must be scared of you is quite ridiculous and signifies that you do not know how it is done.



No, my suggestion was.....there are dogs which have the look of being beat down and tread lightly with doubt...perhaps their training involved too much correction or severity. I would never want a dog to be scared of me...counterproductive...I'll take a dog which respects me however...


SuperG


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

And never ever utilize clowns as a training tool.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Ooooo SuperG......lookie here...


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

You know crap like that isn't funny....I'm pretty sure I have been traumatized and will need monetary recompense to alleviate my hardship....the combination hit all my anti-prey drives rather uniquely I must say.


SuperG


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Seeing as how this is getting far into esoteric territory. 

Higher functioning social mammals rarely operate from a place of true altruistic motivators. Even when performing acts of kindness, the person who is giving gets an endorphin release. 

So whether it's food, money or praise it could be said the motivation, at it's very core, is selfish.

It would follow that the same applies to dogs, albeit in a less sophisticated manner.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Now you are making me think too hard.....but I have wondered about exactly what you just posted for many a year....it's a great debate. One's motivation regardless of the outward appearance, still is predicated on selfishness at the core...just as you say. Even if the result ( intended ) appears to be of a negative quality...it is what one chose to pursue. 

The closest I have ever heard someone describe this is " the true act of giving is when no thank you or other form of acknowledgement is required"...but if it still makes one feel a sense of they have acted properly...is that still not selfishness? 

Gwenhwyfair, if I am understanding you correctly...this exact notion is what has made this topic and my back and forth with Prager on the other thread difficult for me when applying to a dog. How does the use of any rewards represent anything other than motivation for the dog to indulge it's desire ( selfishness )? Whether the dog works for me or itself, it gets it's way by going through the human to achieve the "selfishness" of it's motivations which the human has either shaped or taken advantage of. The only example (antithesis) I can think of is the dog's wild relatives...which effectively desire nothing of humans and have a motivation ( instinct) to steer clear of the human.

I believe a dog certainly can behave as trained because the dog senses it gives it's master "happiness"...yet this is still a reward given to the dog by the master's choice....could be a piece of beef all the same UNLESS..Prager, I'm looking for some feedback here...are you suggesting the reward a human gives a dog in the form of a master's affirmation is a more powerful reward than a food scrap, game of tug or other positive motivators? This notion of a dog working for itself or it's master is something you have stressed and have agreed it is a subtle distinction but significant in how the relationship is founded and proceeds. I don't know that I disagree with your words but a reward is a reward is a reward...a dog conducting itself to experience the reward seems to be it's motivation.

I still like the idea that utilizing the dog's anticipation of the reward is what drives the dog more towards the goal I am trying to develop. I could see how one might think their dog "loves" them more or the dog is loved more because the dog operates at level where the reward is more random...but still at the end of the day...it's all about a selfish/self-serving pursuit of a reward..whatever form it takes.


SuperG


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Canis lupus familiaris is a species which co-evolved with humans. Hence the qualities you note. You could say it's a co-dependent relationship (symbiotic) as we might not be here except for the dog and the dog would not be here except for us. Food sharing was probably one of the first drivers that helped create a domesticated wolf species. 

The sense of surviving together as opposed to dying of hunger, attack of predators so on, is probably the biggest and most visceral reward. 

It's selfish, it's also mutually beneficial for both sides of the equation. 

Or as Joey of Friends would say, "It's a moo point".


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Then you have the accounts of dolphins saving a drowning person...


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

G - I think your wordage is confusing you. I hope someone with more complete thoughts and terminology can follow up on this.

Think of the reward as a paycheck. As you train your dog, the pay is smaller but more frequent. As the dog learns, you increase the duration of work before the pay. You can never faze out the reward completely. Would you go to work on Monday if they stopped paying you on Friday?

Dogs obviously have favorite rewards. The key is getting the dog to know YOU are the reward. The reward is thru you. It doesn't matter what the reward is. It could be food, toy, a snowball, the dog jumping on you. But the reward IS you.



Prager said:


> It is just one of the ways I train the dog in this case to have correct relationship with me and not just with the toy.


This ^^^ I completely failed at this with Jax. It something I had to really work at but never realized I had an issue until I went to a trial and she could have cared less that I was at the end of the leash. It's more about the working relationship between you and the dog than the reward, which was non existing for Jax.

With Seger, he brings the toy back and pushes at me. He'll work for anything, partly because of anticipation. Partly from training. Partly from genetics. I don't think you can break down the pieces like you are trying to do and still get the whole.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> <snipped>
> 
> With Seger, he brings the toy back and pushes at me. He'll work for anything, partly because of anticipation. Partly from training. Partly from genetics. I don't think you can break down the pieces like you are trying to do and still get the whole.


^^^^ This.

The process is holistic, variable and experiential at the end of the day.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> . The key is getting the dog to know YOU are the reward. The reward is thru you. It doesn't matter what the reward is. It could be food, toy, a snowball, the dog jumping on you. But the reward IS you.
> 
> 
> 
> .


Yes, I confuse myself all the time...why I ask so many questions, I suppose.

I mostly agree with words above.. Yes,the reward comes thru me..I am an integral part of the dog being rewarded once the dog has conducted themselves in the appropriate fashion...except one small difference...I am the giver of the reward not the reward itself....unless you are suggesting that one cannot exist without the other...which I would agree with unless the dog sought out a new reward giver...sure hope she doesn't..

Perhaps the original robot video Prager posted is what confused me. If the robot was to be programmed to randomly give out a food reward once the dog accomplished the required behavior ( once the behavior was learned ) the dog would engage the robot device all day long until it could eat no more. Fading of the reward would still be accomplished as the dog is being conditioned to the "slot machine" anticipation mode which makes all the sense in the world to me....immediate consistent gratification has been modified to anticipated gratification as the motivator effectively....a robot can accomplish this just as a human can.

I think I have caught myself up in too much minutia regarding this subject. In my eyes, your example regarding paychecks is a good one. A dog works for me because I sign the paycheck and make it of worth. However, the idea which was offered by Prager suggesting the dog will work better or more effectively for me because the dog "loves" me more is the reason I have beaten this horse dead ten times over...

I have seen a dramatic improvement with my current shepherd in the obedience sector and dog's performance over my previous two...and I strictly believe it is mostly due to all the time and commitment I have put in...plus I do believe my current GSD has more of a natural ability for this higher level of performance due to it's lineage. But, I just can't find it in myself to say this particular dog "loves" me any more than the previous 2. But I do sense this dog respects me more than my previous two but that is only a function of the time we have spent together and level of obedience accomplished. 

Jax...you made me laugh and also think a bit when you listed certain rewards....a "snowball"...I have many times claimed in this forum that the frisbee really trips her trigger BUT a snowball is the ultimate. A frisbee is year round...a snowball is seasonal...I wonder if the seasonal absence of a snowball creates such anticipation of it's ensuing reappearance that it creates such a frenzied reaction to it when winter returns?

I ask many questions and as a child was told " the only stupid question is the one you are about to ask"....man, talk about about a tough upbringing. Okay, just kidding..but my parents might have had a leg to stand on if they did say that actually.


SuperG


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

SuperG said:


> I mostly agree with words above.. *Yes,the reward comes thru me..I am an integral part of the dog being rewarded *once the dog has conducted themselves in the appropriate fashion...except one small difference...*I am the giver of the reward not the reward itself*....*unless you are suggesting that one cannot exist without the other*...which I would agree with unless the dog sought out a new reward giver...sure hope she doesn't..


No, YOU ARE THE REWARD. The interaction with you IS the reward. I'm not saying one cannot exist without the other. I'm saying in order to have a good working relationship with your dog, the one should not exist without the other. 

It doesn't matter if you hand your dog off to someone else and they become the reward. I do it every time I go to training and my trainer is showing me something. 



SuperG said:


> Perhaps the original robot video Prager posted is what confused me. If the robot was to be programmed to randomly give out a food reward once the dog accomplished the required behavior ( once the behavior was learned ) the dog would engage the robot device all day long until it could eat no more. Fading of the reward would still be accomplished as the dog is being conditioned to the "slot machine" anticipation mode which makes all the sense in the world to me....immediate consistent gratification has been modified to anticipated gratification as the motivator effectively....a robot can accomplish this just as a human can.


Didn't watch the video. My connection sucks at home. Yes, a robot can hand out rewards. But a robot can not build a relationship with an animal so the animals wants to work with them. Robots are no fun. Humans are fun. Humans are part of the game.



SuperG said:


> I think I have caught myself up in too much minutia regarding this subject. In my eyes, your example regarding paychecks is a good one. A dog works for me because I sign the paycheck and make it of worth. However, the idea which was offered by Prager suggesting the dog will work better or more effectively for me because the dog "loves" me more is the reason I have beaten this horse dead ten times over...


You are stuck in the minute.  Prager is right. The word you are missing is "relationship". Without the relationship, you are the robot shooting out treats. You can't break down and separate the reward and the relationship. The reward helps you train. The relationship moves you forward in training. Without the relationship, you are stuck being a pez dispenser.




SuperG said:


> Jax...you made me laugh and also think a bit when you listed certain rewards....a "snowball"...I have many times claimed in this forum that the frisbee really trips her trigger BUT a snowball is the ultimate. A frisbee is year round...a snowball is seasonal...I wonder if the seasonal absence of a snowball creates such anticipation of it's ensuing reappearance that it creates such a frenzied reaction to it when winter returns?


I was at a hotel. Snowballs were all that were handy.  The point was that WHAT the reward is doesn't matter if the relationship is there.

With Jax, she will only work for a frisbee...because the relationship wasn't built and the focus was all on the physical reward, not me being the reward. She got the frisbee and she ran off to have her own party.

Seger will work for anything, including an excitement Good Job! from me. He gets the tug, he comes back to me to play. You can't separate the tug and the person into different parts. You need both to have the whole picture.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Re "love" G...that is what I was getting at "love" is the end result of a process that goes back in time, generations forward to a holistic view of how you interact with your dog on a day to day basis.

Dogs are really a unique species in that they evolved to survive in partnership with humans by developing the ability to "read" humans as much as we learn to read them. 

Is that love or is that the genetic coding to survive or is it all of the above?

I vote for all of the above. 

A very rewarding pursuit to seek to become a more complete and understanding partner with a dog(s).


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I'm not sure if this fits in SuperG, but I don't think too much beyond introducing different toys. I figure once he'll give me the same effort no matter which reward, even random food here and there and his effort is maintained for as long as I ask for it, he's working for me. 

At some point through it all, I'm going to find opportunities to correct him and let him know he has to do it. I'll reward what I want and correct what I don't. In some cases witholding the reward will be enough, in some there'll be a physical correction. I don't see that part as the piece that proves he's working for me, but I believe it is necessary to them being reliable in all the different surroundings and such, where you'll be having them do something.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Jax...

I guess I never viewed myself as "the" reward...sure, my positive gestures and words are received by my dog as a reward I suppose. And I will have to say when I walk in the front door, she makes me feel like I am a reward but after that I guess I never gave it more thought than that. I'll have to think about what you said more in depth...

Now to all of you,

Most all that I pester you people about is all your own fault....man, that's a solid excuse....here's the deal, I'm a companion dog guy but since I joined this forum for advice regarding my bitch's first heat, I started reading and learning. Then the performance dog people got my interest, I saw videos and read comments in here revolving around heightened obedience and performance which I never really thought I would have an interest in...I just thought the forum was here to guide me through much of the typical stuff you see many a new GSD person deal with. So, because of you performance types...I blame this all on you...it completely broadened my horizons and opened my eyes as to what a GSD and some other breeds are capable of...and I have rather enjoyed the raising of the bar. I now have...what I like to say is a "backyard performance" dog. It's fun, it has wonderfully improved my patience and I have watched my dog thrive through this journey together, we are a team in sync with each other like no other dog I have previously enjoyed...which is all your fault....wait...that sounds like a compliment.

Did I mention this is all your fault ???


Cheers,

SuperG


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Ahhh...The Dark Side....Welcome.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Hehehe. Me too. Well said G.

Baillif's Zebu and Crank. videos drive me up the wall....


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Steve,

Never really thought of introducing new toys in quite a while.....is the bottom line regarding this, is to go with whatever turns the dog on the most or more of a mixing it up over time so the dog never gets complacent with a particular lure? Your post made me remember I have not used any food in our sessions in a month or so...all frisbee or tennis ball rope gizmo. I probably should reintroduce some food rewards into the mix...yes?


SuperG


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

"The reward is you", your lovely voice, your tender touch...
The reward is the toy, and voice of the handler - is the way for the dog to know he's doing right. Every time you throw the toy - that is his best reward, during the game your dog wouldn't want anything else. Have you noticed that, if you hold her Frisbee in one hand, and tried to stroke her with the other - she is "eating" this Frisbee with her eyes, and your stroking is almost unpleasant to her?
I agree with turning her on to different toy. Chuckit Ball? Never met a dog who didn't like it. In fact, your dog should bring any object you asked, bring by name (she can easily learn names of 5-6 different objects, some of them are toys), Frisbee is great, and you can achieve a lot with it, but she can learn different games. I trained my dog to push the ball with her paw: I kick it, and she kicks it back short distances. "Give it!", "Drop it", she catches it from the distance (ask her to stay and throw it to her - every day one step further away from her), she catches it bounced off the wall, and she jumps barriers after it with a jump return with her ball in her mouth. It is fun for her and it develops her physically and mentally, because I use many different commands during the play. Your task is - to build the series of commands by using different toys.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

This is way to esoteric a thred for me to actually comment on. But if I were to actually be "forced" to comment on it I would be the in the "I" am the reward camp.

My comment would be found here:
Boxer Dog Training

Scroll down "Don't use treats as bribes"

That's how I roll.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

SuperG said:


> Steve,
> 
> Never really thought of introducing new toys in quite a while.....is the bottom line regarding this, is to go with whatever turns the dog on the most or more of a mixing it up over time so the dog never gets complacent with a particular lure? Your post made me remember I have not used any food in our sessions in a month or so...all frisbee or tennis ball rope gizmo. I probably should reintroduce some food rewards into the mix...yes?
> 
> ...


I just mix it up. Somethings a ball on a rope is better for, somethings the tug is better for, but what I'm looking for is the effort and the attention when I say "Ready" That's when I get the idea its about playing with me, not just the toy. 

Maybe Prager can comment on how that fits with what he's saying.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Gonna try not to be esoteric.

The way I have raised and trained Crank is to try to avoid the dog doing something because he wants to obtain something, at least when it comes to pet obedience. There are exercises in mondioring where he does stuff obviously to obtain bites or something like that, and that's fine. I want him doing something because he knows he has to and then the reward that comes after is a bonus or something to add emotion energy or speed to the process.

So for instance to teach him a sit when he was a little puppy I didn't use food I stood in front of him I got his attention I motioned upward with my hand in such a way that following it with his eyes he sat and I marked that with an excited "Free!" and I'd invite him to jump into me and we'd play just me and him no toy.

I would fade that motion that got the sit and it was just on the command and then free and party. Never needed food to make it happen, never needed a toy. Now, really quickly if he was to try to disengage to do something else I would mark no and poke him and then collect him and have him try again. Disengaging with me when I am asking for obedience is no bueno and there is a consequence for it. If he had displayed he had an understanding of the sit cue by doing it in the past in a given environment and I said sit and he failed to do it I would mark that with a no and go poke him or something like that. If he tried to run that was also a no and a poke. He figured out that when I said sit and he sat that it was the best possible action with the best outcome and so that's what happened. He could choose not to, but I would continue to hound him until he chose correctly and then party. No toy, no food, and the dog learns to become addicted to that happy party emotion because it is much better than the alternative. The dog at that point is literally just working for me, but he is also doing it because the alternative is undesirable. He is doing it to avoid a consequence. At first they get a little weird but with understanding comes confidence and the weirdness fades.

That is the foundation framework of our training relationship. I ask for something he knows I will make sure that it happens, and it is up to the dog as to whether or not it happens the easy way or the hard way. He learned to just go the route of least resistance and pick the easy way and get it done. After that is in place then we can do it for play or toy or food or whatever. It is a bonus, it is not the reason Crank does the behavior. He does the behavior because he has to. He can choose not to, but there is a consequence and he will be asked again until he is successful. I never just let it go. There are never pictures where he can get away with breaking behavior and I don't somehow make it happen. That is his life. He knows this, so he does what he is asked.

It is how I had him off leash as a puppy at 11 weeks old in public with a super nice recall. Right choices were celebrated and wrong choices were punished under a framework of markers to aid in our communication. I didn't have to have food, I didn't have to have a toy, or a leash, or a special collar.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Baillif said:


> Gonna try not to be esoteric.















Baillif said:


> The way I have raised and trained Crank is to try to avoid the dog doing something because he wants to obtain something, at least when it comes to pet obedience. There are exercises in mondioring where he does stuff obviously to obtain bites or something like that, and that's fine. I want him doing something because he knows he has to and then the reward that comes after is a bonus or something to add emotion energy or speed to the process.
> 
> So for instance to teach him a sit when he was a little puppy I didn't use food I stood in front of him I got his attention I motioned upward with my hand in such a way that following it with his eyes he sat and I marked that with an excited "Free!" and I'd invite him to jump into me and we'd play just me and him no toy.
> 
> ...


Thanks


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Baillif said:


> Gonna try not to be esoteric.
> 
> The way I have raised and trained Crank is to try to avoid the dog doing something because he wants to obtain something, at least when it comes to pet obedience. There are exercises in mondioring where he does stuff obviously to obtain bites or something like that, and that's fine. I want him doing something because he knows he has to and then the reward that comes after is a bonus or something to add emotion energy or speed to the process.
> 
> ...


Funny, cause I'm older than the hills but this is what was done before all the treats came about. It was called dog training and is what was available and very effective.

Probably why I relate to what Prager is talking about.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

It isn't so common anymore because if you go that route it requires that you be able to read the dog and be skilled at keeping the balance in your relationship with the dog. If you are unclear, punish too severely, are inconsistent, are not doing things to make up for the times when you have to punish the dog to balance things out then your dog can get weird around you. The relationship can suffer if you don't know what you are doing. It isn't something you necessarily want to learn through trial and error you need to be taught how to train in this manner.

People go the toy and treat route and the best of them build up the toy or treat in such a way that the dog really really wants it, and are able to fade the reward schedule from fixed to variable and finally to a random reward schedule where the dog is essentially gambling for reward. The problem they run into is the dog can usually discriminate whether they even have the reward item on them with their nose or there are competing motivators which creep into the equation (dog would rather chase deer than mess with the tug). Most professional trainers aren't good enough at positive reinforcement to get reliable behavior in real world conditions that way, at least not to what I would consider a reliable standard.

Zebu was an interesting case because he was started with lots of luring and heavy rewarding and then moved to negative reinforcement for those same behaviors and finally punishment to maintain it and then rewards happen whenever in a similar way to what Crank is doing now. The accuracy on behaviors is pretty similar they're both very very reliable. 

The difference is in how Zebu kind of deflates a little bit if released from behavior without reward because he is wanting a Frisbee or a tug or some sort of prize. There is much less conditioned expectation in Crank and he values praise and being rewarded with emotions much more than Zebu. Zebu still noticeably appreciates it, but has a look of "Is that all you got?" on his face sometimes.

For pet obedience none of that really matters, but on a mondio ring trial field I can reward Crank on the field with me and emotions, I can't bring food or a tug out there.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I was taught to use food AND the party.

Then fade the food out and tone the "party" down too. 

I think the point Ballif makes about people new to this training needing guidance is an important one, also pet vs competiton level OB.

Btw- as a related aside, in group OB with pet owners (I.e. People not looking to compete with their dogs in any way or desire to move beyond basic pet OB) the men in the class REALLY struggled with the "party" concept. They felt it was silly and definately not a "masculine" way to appear in public. A lot of them literally would not do the happy party. Meanwhile the trainer, a very tall muscular man with a deep voice did the best parties!


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> the men in the class REALLY struggled with the "party" concept. They felt it was silly and definately not a "masculine" way to appear in public.


Okay....this could easily be construed as some type of slam on men...misandry almost...and as a man I am tempted to stand up for the rest of the male community but am fearful my wife might find out, so I won't....the correction is harsh.

Now, seriously....your description above fits me to a tee...it's like asking a male to play Peter Pan in any version of it on a stage. Yes, every time I dealt with the "party time" drill at basic obedience I was scolded by the trainer. I have a very deep voice coupled with a bit of monotone character to it. So, even when I was "partying it up" on recall drills the trainer would suggest my "excitement" level was on par with watching paint dry....I worked on it...ramped it up to a level which equaled the excitement level of going to the dentist. I think I ended up trying to do a Pee Wee Herman imitation coupled with a "happy dance" to comply with the trainer's wishes regarding the "party"....don't know if it worked..but they did laugh.


SuperG


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

See, this is what I don't like.

First of all, esoteric is o.k. In the sense that dogs became domesticated largely due to one of the most innate drives of all living things, the need for sustenance to survive. 

Secondly using food shouldn't be portrayed as completely wrong-headed.

For someone who is looking to achieve greater levels of Obedience the concepts being discussed here are very interesting and educational. What I don't like is this turning into 'yet another black or white meme'. Like the 'alpha role' pack leader craze with zero treats vs the all treats all the time clicker treat giver craze.

I work with pet people,**(see note below) not meant in a bad way, but people who just want a dog that will not dislocate their shoulder going after a cat while on a walk. People who when they tell that dog to sit, don't really care if it's a 'sloppy' sit where the dog is not perfectly straight in his sit.

Sometimes these 'all or nothing' training approaches set dog owners up to fail. When the dog owners fail they often get rid of the dog and more dogs end up in a shelter.

If using treats sets the average dog owner up to succeed enough that they feel they have accomplished what *they* need from the dog, then let 'em use treats.

Honestly, the average pet owner wouldn't notice the slight 'deflation' of attitude that a skilled trainer like Baillif will pick up on and IRL it really doesn't matter for average dog owner Joe.

NOW- if you have goals, time, desire and the right dog to get to a higher level such as required in IPO or Mondio or other dog sport requiring that level of OB *then* this is a really great discussion.

I think it is very important, however, to make the differentiation based on the real requirements of the dog owner. 

(**btw- I am not a trainer. I do work around a LOT of average dog owners every day and hear and witness the struggles they are having.)



Chip18 said:


> This is way to esoteric a thred for me to actually comment on. But if I were to actually be "forced" to comment on it I would be the in the "I" am the reward camp.
> 
> <snipped>
> 
> ...


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

...and Baillif you should think about writing a book on training someday.

You really have a way of putting things that make it very clear and understandable.

Always appreciate your posts!!


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

Methods of, training vary, they are many. Many methods could be used to achieve one and the same thing. The method you choose - depends on the caracter of the dog. I don't think ( but rather can guess) that the dog OP has needs any punishment, she is submissive and atentive enough, it seems to me she is a soft character and very playful.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

I am the OP....coo coo ca choo.

Yes, I think your read on my dog is fairly accurate....she is submissive to me but still tests other humans out at times and will take the appropriate "position"....she's attentive enough but we're improving on that..."attentive" means two things to me..attentive to the learning process...and then attentive enough to me to execute the learned behavior..she's not a hard dog and understands corrective actions without me having to be harsh...she's playful if someone chooses....most don't.

She responds to "punishment"....what dog doesn't....never had one yet that didn't. Today I punished her by withholding her treat....

SuperG


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

On another note....dog found a lacrosse ball today at the tennis courts today...new toy. She gives it to me per my wishes and I put it in my pocket...we do our 10-15 minute drill off leash....superb execution, speed and accuracy..."superb" is relative but nonetheless one of her best performances.

Never gave up the new ball until the entire session was over, she knows where it is of course.... I did what I did because off some suggestions posted in here....maybe I screwed up the way others might do it but it was interesting. I certainly faded the reward...normally I'd offer up the reward after a couple minutes in this setting. I also had a new lure...maybe the frisbee is getting old in this department...and her anticipation to get to the reward, with
me owning it...was very noticeable...she did better the longer I stalled her by having her do her stuff. We finish, I rough her up a bit, I give her my favorable synopsis of the session and we have fun with the new ball. So whether she was working for me or herself is a mystery to me...but it was a marked difference.

SuperG


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

be careful using a lacrosse ball as a reward, super smooth and not very big....choking hazard if there isn't a string drilled thru it.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> be careful using a lacrosse ball as a reward, super smooth and not very big....choking hazard if there isn't a string drilled thru it.


I greatly appreciate you stating this....I actually was thinking about that very idea when she was enjoying the ball...if she became too overzealous with it...I do believe it could pose a threat as an object which could become a choking hazard...similar to a racquet ball. I think I'll put a drill through it and a piece of poly rope.....she'll enjoy it as a tug toy...maybe even more.

Thanks,

SuperG


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## Prager (Jul 3, 2011)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Seeing as how this is getting far into esoteric territory.
> 
> Higher functioning social mammals rarely operate from a place of true altruistic motivators. Even when performing acts of kindness, the person who is giving gets an endorphin release.
> 
> ...


 That is non issue then, I have read book "The Mother nature is trying to kill you" [ame]http://www.amazon.com/Riskin-Ph-D-Mother-Nature-Trying/dp/B00N4HNUK8/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1429405594&sr=8-2&keywords=mother+nature+is+trying+to+kill+you[/ame]
and that book explains that all we do and all animals do is selfish and absolutely nothing is altruistic and all we and all animals do is to transfer our genes down the line. and all we are are" meat robots' with such purpose. 
Even so the book is very good , that is a sad soulless point of view of the world.


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