# Rough Play



## Ponder85 (Aug 28, 2011)

Hello
I have a 2 yr old GSD, who we got about 6 months ago.

We also have a 3 yr old Siberian Husky.

The two dogs do pretty well together, but Bailey, the GSD, plays extremely rough with my Sibe. Bailey does two things that, in my mind, are too rough: she tries to take his back legs out from under him as she's chasing him, and grabs his throat/neck area very roughly. She's been so hard on him, parts of his tags are unreadable from the teeth marks.

I've never heard my Sibe yelp, or even seem like he was getting hurt from her grabbing his neck, but if she's chasing him and trying to get his legs, he makes sure it doesn't happen. Fortunately for him, he is both quicker, and has better endurance than her.

This became an issue for Bailey at the dog park. We no longer take her there. Last time she was there, she bit a dogs back legs so hard it was limping, and the owner immediately left. Again, I've realized she's not a dog park dog. I'm ok with that, as she gets exercise from walks, and playing with my Sibe.

When Bailey grabs his neck, she bites hard, and twists her head, and often pulls fur out.

My Sibe is good at dealing with this. It doesn't seem to hurt him, but to me, it should not be happening.

She's not aggressive at all. She's run away from 15 lb dogs trying to start fights with her. When the incident at the park happened the other dog got mad and she ran away scared. I believe she does not intend to hurt other dogs, she just plays really rough.

I don't know how to correct the behavior. Long story short, she didn't have a lot of socialization/play time before she got to our house. She still won't play with me. (My Sibe LOVES to rough house with me) But she's improved her temperment/behavior/confidence tremendously. My fear is with corrections, is she will think she's not allowed to play at all. I don't know how to make her tone down her play.

Also, sometimes I let the dogs in the back yard when I'm inside. I want her to play nicely, even if I'm not right there.

Like I said, she's about 2 yrs old. She's also a big girl, about 85 lbs. She doesn't really know her own strength. She's big bc we open feed them, and in her old house, I think the bigger male GSD ate a lot of the food. She resource guards, but that's another issue for another thread, and she's coming along.

I'll also admit this. When we got her, she would nip at me when she was excited. I went the wrong route teaching bite inhibition. I used physical corrections instead of letting her know how much she was able to hurt me. It corrected the behavior (It's been months since she's nipped at me), but I failed in teaching her the power she has in her jaws.

She's very obedient. LOVES to learn tricks (she likes to get treats). I work with her nearly daily now on training.

How do I make her understand she's hurting my sibe? I don't want to go out back and discover my little dude's neck torn up, or a ripped tendon in his leg. I think if he yelped Bailey would immediately stop but that might be too late and the play is already too rough.

Thanks in advance for any info. I recently looked through a lot of the threads on aggression and didn't see anything that pertained to my situation. Also, since this is not really aggression (I don't think), sorry if its posted in the wrong area.


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## NewbieShepherdGirl (Jan 7, 2011)

Sasha plays really rough too, and personally as long as the other dog isn't bothered by it and the other owner isn't bothered by it. If you really think she goes too far, crate her as soon as she starts that. Do it enough times and she'll understand that going too far will get her some crate time and she'll hopefully settle down. In my opinion if it doesn't bother your sibe then I wouldn't worry too much about it, but if you're getting a feeling that it could lead to a fight or serious injury then put a stop to it. My personal experience is play bites look worse than they are in reality.


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## Ponder85 (Aug 28, 2011)

I don't think it would lead to a fight, as my Sibe has never shown a bit of dog aggression, but I just think he might end up hurt.

She has already hurt other dogs pretty bad, and I think my Sibe just takes it better than them. I'm not concerned about the dog park; I don't think she'll ever step foot in there again. But I don't want my Sibe eventually getting hurt.

Maybe those two know each other well enough that if he wanted her to stop, I think she would. I just don't want something bad to happen prior to it stopping.

Are you sure it'd be a good idea to crate if she got too rough? I don't like the idea of using that as a punishment for my dogs. What about a long sit/stay?

Thanks for the quick response!


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## NewbieShepherdGirl (Jan 7, 2011)

It doesn't have to be a punishment. It's all about the attitude in which you do it. If you're all "Bad dog! Go to your crate!" then yeah it's a punishment. If it's more of a calm, just putting her in there to settle down, maybe with a bone or a treat filled kong then it's not a punishment. The idea is more establishing boundaries and what not than punishing.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

bump!


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## Ponder85 (Aug 28, 2011)

NewbieShepherdGirl said:


> It doesn't have to be a punishment. It's all about the attitude in which you do it. If you're all "Bad dog! Go to your crate!" then yeah it's a punishment. If it's more of a calm, just putting her in there to settle down, maybe with a bone or a treat filled kong then it's not a punishment. The idea is more establishing boundaries and what not than punishing.


Interesting point. Never thought of it that way. 

Thank you for the insight.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Ponder85 said:


> Are you sure it'd be a good idea to crate if she got too rough? I don't like the idea of using that as a punishment for my dogs. What about a long sit/stay?


It's a time out, not punishment and accomplishes the same thing as a sit stay. If you are uncomfortable with the escalation of play, then you can calm them down by stopping it and doing a little OB to bring their energy down. Sometimes just walking calmly between them is enough of a break to bring the excitement back down a notch. I would try to be on top of it BEFORE it escalates instead of trying to correct it after. 

If you break them up and they go right back at it, they are fine with the intensity.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

This is how my 2 dogs play 98% of the time. Neck biting, pulling fur, grabbing the neck and pulling until the skin pulls up in a tent shape, extremely vocal. . . you'd think it was a dog fight. They both love it. 

If one dog is uncomfortable with what's going on, he'll let out a high-pitched yelp and the other dog will _immediately_ stop. 

Has your Siberian ever yelped like this? How does the GSD react?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I have three nice size dogs that play this way, most of the time its two at a time(they rotate), but every now and then its all three. I've had collars come and name tags come off It sounds like I promote dog fighting and I only stop them because of how loud they get. They are playing rough and if one of them doesn't like something the rest know it. I'm able to teach the shepherd(the other two already know) when she's getting out of hand with the cats. She can chase them all she wants, but when she gets on the rougher side I step in and this does help her learn. I would never attempt to bring her to the dog park until I see this behavior go away completely...we probably won't ever get to the dog park


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## Ponder85 (Aug 28, 2011)

Wow, quick posts! Thanks!!



gsdraven said:


> It's a time out, not punishment and accomplishes the same thing as a sit stay. If you are uncomfortable with the escalation of play, then you can calm them down by stopping it and doing a little OB to bring their energy down. Sometimes just walking calmly between them is enough of a break to bring the excitement back down a notch. I would try to be on top of it BEFORE it escalates instead of trying to correct it after.
> 
> If you break them up and they go right back at it, they are fine with the intensity.


I definitely wanna be on top of it before it escalates. I want her to permanently bring the level of play down.



Emoore said:


> This is how my 2 dogs play 98% of the time. Neck biting, pulling fur, grabbing the neck and pulling until the skin pulls up in a tent shape, extremely vocal. . . you'd think it was a dog fight. They both love it.
> 
> If one dog is uncomfortable with what's going on, he'll let out a high-pitched yelp and the other dog will _immediately_ stop.
> 
> Has your Siberian ever yelped like this? How does the GSD react?


My Sibe has never yelped. It doesn't even seem to phase him. As a human (and not a dog!) I can't imagine some of it not hurting him. Maybe it doesn't.

Maybe my Sibe does like it. He always seems happy during the play. I'm fearful one day he'll get hurt though. Maybe I should just let some of it go? Like the neck biting?

She's hurt another dog by biting/pulling the legs out, and I think she could do it to my Sibe. I think this is something that definitely needs attention. Am I wrong? Maybe I'm making a bigger deal out of this than it really is.


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## OriginalWacky (Dec 21, 2011)

Ponder85 said:


> My Sibe has never yelped. It doesn't even seem to phase him. As a human (and not a dog!) I can't imagine some of it not hurting him. Maybe it doesn't.
> 
> Maybe my Sibe does like it. He always seems happy during the play. I'm fearful one day he'll get hurt though. Maybe I should just let some of it go? Like the neck biting?
> 
> She's hurt another dog by biting/pulling the legs out, and I think she could do it to my Sibe. I think this is something that definitely needs attention. Am I wrong? Maybe I'm making a bigger deal out of this than it really is.


If he keeps coming back for more and seems to be enjoying it, then I'd probably not worry quite so much. However, even if you aren't worried about it, stopping play time to settle every so often is a good thing to teach anyway. Even just a real fast calling their names, grabbing their collars, and asking for a sit or a down helps settle them a little bit, and then you turn them loose to play again. That also teaches them that play time doesn't end just because you've called them. 

I will say that our huskies played HARD, and if I didn't know they weren't going to hurt each other, I would probably have flipped out. I think that their thick fur helps protect their neck a bit, and their speed kept them from getting 'caught' when other dogs were in the mix. Because they did get going so fast, I often had to keep our littler dog out of the way - she thinks she's a big dog, but 35 pounds of Beagle mix just can't stand up to being hit by 75 pounds of husky at full speed.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

OriginalWacky said:


> If he keeps coming back for more and seems to be enjoying it, then I'd probably not worry quite so much. However, even if you aren't worried about it, stopping play time to settle every so often is a good thing to teach anyway. Even just a real fast calling their names, grabbing their collars, and asking for a sit or a down helps settle them a little bit, and then you turn them loose to play again. That also teaches them that play time doesn't end just because you've called them.
> 
> I will say that our huskies played HARD, and if I didn't know they weren't going to hurt each other, I would probably have flipped out. I think that their thick fur helps protect their neck a bit, and their speed kept them from getting 'caught' when other dogs were in the mix. Because they did get going so fast, I often had to keep our littler dog out of the way - she thinks she's a big dog, but 35 pounds of Beagle mix just can't stand up to being hit by 75 pounds of husky at full speed.


A 75lb Husky sounds like a HUGE one!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

NewbieShepherdGirl said:


> It doesn't have to be a punishment. It's all about the attitude in which you do it. If you're all "Bad dog! Go to your crate!" then yeah it's a punishment. If it's more of a calm, just putting her in there to settle down, maybe with a bone or a treat filled kong then it's not a punishment. The idea is more establishing boundaries and what not than punishing.


 
If it is a definite behavior that you want to stop - then what is wrong with a reasonable correction to let your dog that the behavior is not acceptable?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

My female plays with my younger male EXACTLY like your GSD. Gryffon's heavy-duty leather collar is full of teeth marks from her, and sometimes when she lunges at him, sable fur ends up sticking in her mouth and flying in the air. From an outside perspective, it looks terrible, but it is play, and Gryff often invites her to chase him. Like Bailey, because of of Keeta's rough way of playing, she is not allowed to play with other dogs, because it is too rough for most dogs out there, but Gryff is fine with it. He will tell her off or yelp if it is too much for him, and as others have said, I'll step in and stop her before she goes overboard. 

I never let them out unsupervised, and I watch Gryff for signs that he has had enough of Keeta (he is trying to avoid her, growls at her if she looks like she is about to chase). Then I control Keeta to give Gryff a break. I might put her on leash, or distract her with play so her attention is on me, or put her away for a while. 

If you are worried and concerned that your husky may get hurt, don't leave them on their own without supervision. This is not something that you can train out of your GSD and expect it to stick.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

As long as there's no bloodshed and everybody's having fun, I let dogs play how they want to play. They're remarkably good at letting each other know when play is getting too intense, especially when they're old friends. 

You say she hurt another dog doing the leg sweep. When I used to work at a ranch and someone would hurt themselves, we'd ask: "Are you injured or just hurt?" Injured meant you needed to stop working and get first aid or some medical attention. Hurt meant you were having a bit of pain but you could keep working and would get over it. Was the other dog injured or just hurt?


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## Ponder85 (Aug 28, 2011)

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OriginalWacky said:


> If he keeps coming back for more and seems to be enjoying it, then I'd probably not worry quite so much. However, even if you aren't worried about it, stopping play time to settle every so often is a good thing to teach anyway. Even just a real fast calling their names, grabbing their collars, and asking for a sit or a down helps settle them a little bit, and then you turn them loose to play again. That also teaches them that play time doesn't end just because you've called them.
> 
> I will say that our huskies played HARD, and if I didn't know they weren't going to hurt each other, I would probably have flipped out. I think that their thick fur helps protect their neck a bit, and their speed kept them from getting 'caught' when other dogs were in the mix. Because they did get going so fast, I often had to keep our littler dog out of the way - she thinks she's a big dog, but 35 pounds of Beagle mix just can't stand up to being hit by 75 pounds of husky at full speed.


I'll do that just to get them to pay attention with a distraction. Funny you say the beagle gets hit by the husky. Mine will just plow into any dog in his way at full speed. He runs over little dogs and tries to run through bit dogs. Doesn't even slow down or try to go around. 



codmaster said:


> A 75lb Husky sounds like a HUGE one!


Depends on the type of husky. My sibe is only 50 lbs. 



codmaster said:


> If it is a definite behavior that you want to stop - then what is wrong with a reasonable correction to let your dog that the behavior is not acceptable?


I'm worried she will think play in general is not acceptable. I might be over thinking it. I'm sure she would figure it out. 



Castlemaid said:


> My female plays with my younger male EXACTLY like your GSD. Gryffon's heavy-duty leather collar is full of teeth marks from her, and sometimes when she lunges at him, sable fur ends up sticking in her mouth and flying in the air. From an outside perspective, it looks terrible, but it is play, and Gryff often invites her to chase him. Like Bailey, because of of Keeta's rough way of playing, she is not allowed to play with other dogs, because it is too rough for most dogs out there, but Gryff is fine with it. He will tell her off or yelp if it is too much for him, and as others have said, I'll step in and stop her before she goes overboard.
> 
> I never let them out unsupervised, and I watch Gryff for signs that he has had enough of Keeta (he is trying to avoid her, growls at her if she looks like she is about to chase). Then I control Keeta to give Gryff a break. I might put her on leash, or distract her with play so her attention is on me, or put her away for a while.
> 
> If you are worried and concerned that your husky may get hurt, don't leave them on their own without supervision. This is not something that you can train out of your GSD and expect it to stick.


Not being able to train it out of her is what I expected. At least I know. I'm glad to hear about other dogs that play this way. 



Emoore said:


> As long as there's no bloodshed and everybody's having fun, I let dogs play how they want to play. They're remarkably good at letting each other know when play is getting too intense, especially when they're old friends.
> 
> You say she hurt another dog doing the leg sweep. When I used to work at a ranch and someone would hurt themselves, we'd ask: "Are you injured or just hurt?" Injured meant you needed to stop working and get first aid or some medical attention. Hurt meant you were having a bit of pain but you could keep working and would get over it. Was the other dog injured or just hurt?


I'm not sure what the severity was bc they left immediately. It was limping out of there though. 

Thanks for everyone's responses so far. Seems like the majority opinion is let them sort it out, which they already do a good job of. 

One idea I've been thinking about is trying to find some other dogs around her size, with a similar play style, in my area to see if the owners would let them play together. Anyone have any advice or experience with this?


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Hi Ponder85

Just a word of warning. 

Our GSD and Dalmation were like your dogs, they were evenly matched and enjoyed themselves ...... so we left them to it. If it ever got out of hand they would let each other know - fine. 

Except the GSD starting doing it with every dog he met. We had to keep him on leash. But then he pulled and screamed like crazy as he got more and more frustrated. We had a **** of game sorting out a problem we had allowed to occur. I see that now of course - pity I didn't at the time.

I would definately step in and give a short time out as soon as you sense it's getting too rough. 

I live and learn 
Sue


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## Bismarck (Oct 10, 2009)

biz and del play all the time, but i have to strictly monitor their play sessions, because when del gets too worked up, he pukes.
so i'll let them play for a bit, then step in once i feel they're going at it a little too strongly.
there is a time for play, a time for rest, a time for relaxation. it's up to you to ensure the dogs know that, and for you to enforce the rules and boundaries that you set.

it's not mean breaking up play time, it keeps you as the leader.


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## NewbieShepherdGirl (Jan 7, 2011)

codmaster said:


> If it is a definite behavior that you want to stop - then what is wrong with a reasonable correction to let your dog that the behavior is not acceptable?


She was saying that she didn't want her dog to view going to the crate as a punishment, to keep the crate a positive place. I'm not saying that she shouldn't correct her dog at all; I was just saying the crate itself doesn't have to be a punishment in this situation if she wants to keep the crate a positive experience.


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## Ponder85 (Aug 28, 2011)

jakes mom said:


> Hi Ponder85
> 
> Just a word of warning.
> 
> ...


Stuff like this is my concern. So far, it's been fine. But she's still kind of a pup, and I don't want her to get worse as she ages bc she thinks it's ok. 

Thanks for the info.


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## sjones5254 (Dec 16, 2011)

I have 6 dogs my GSD being the rough player out of all. She knows though when one yelps she stops now after a few times of us making her take a break . And we also let her know be easy when they start. She has picked up on that quite well. But the others just come right back for more so I wouldn't worry too much unless when she yelps your GSD don't stop. We have all kinds of dogs in and out of our house all weekend every weekend newest being a pit/lab mix at 7 weeks old and our GSD wanted to play but learned quickly babies don't play. And my GSD is pushing 60 pounds playing with 6-93 pounds of dogs.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

Dante and Kaos play like this all the time.

Just a word of warning, you might want to take the collar off your Sibe if the GSD it doing a lot of neck grabbing, Dante hasn't had his collar on since Kaos arrived :rofl: and soon Kaos's will have to come off as well when they play - she's small enough still that Dante rarely grabs her neck


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## OriginalWacky (Dec 21, 2011)

> A 75lb Husky sounds like a HUGE one!


Yeah, he was pretty big, and one solid dog. Our other husky was around 55, and the GSD/hound mix was 60ish. Since the Beagle mix was only 35 or so, I had to watch out for her a bit. One on one she could play with any of them, but when the big ones got to really running, they could even knock me back a bit. Now that we just have Koshka and Krissie, she's doing great at playing with him, and as he gets older, hopefully he'll keep playing at her level.



> I'll do that just to get them to pay attention with a distraction.


Not only is it good for training with distraction, but if he gets to play with other dogs, you need to be able to stop it. If you can connect with somebody who has a big very stable dog who plays differently, it might be good for him to learn alternative ways to play. Some dogs are really good at learning to play differently for different dogs, and others aren't so good at that.

I think the most important thing is that you work to make sure you can break them up when needed, and otherwise let them work it out. Unless it turns to fighting, which you don't want to happen, but as long as they are both having fun, and you can stop if it you want/need to, it should be fine.


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## Dakotasmom23 (Jan 11, 2012)

Is the play back and forth or is your GSD the one always on top, always controlling the play, initiating the play, escalating the play? I ask because if the play doesn't seem "fair" (you should see a give and take, switching of roles--one runs, one chases and then they switch) then yes, I would definitely intervene. I have a 106lb male Akbash/Great Pyrenees and my 5 month old female 50lb GSD and my puppy is definitely the aggressor and my big male dog just lets her hang off his neck. Of course all my neighbors have labs and look in my backyard like I'm dog fighting or something, lol. Its VERY vocal, very rough. I worry about the level of intensity in the play because I also have young kids and I don't want that crazy play going on while the kids are in the yard too. So yeah, when I say "enough"...I mean ENOUGH. So when I think the play is getting too rough, I step in and separate. So far, they are respecting that (although my GSD is only 5 months so I'm sure she'll be testing me soon!).


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## Ponder85 (Aug 28, 2011)

Dakotasmom23 said:


> Is the play back and forth or is your GSD the one always on top, always controlling the play, initiating the play, escalating the play? I ask because if the play doesn't seem "fair" (you should see a give and take, switching of roles--one runs, one chases and then they switch) then yes, I would definitely intervene. I have a 106lb male Akbash/Great Pyrenees and my 5 month old female 50lb GSD and my puppy is definitely the aggressor and my big male dog just lets her hang off his neck. Of course all my neighbors have labs and look in my backyard like I'm dog fighting or something, lol. Its VERY vocal, very rough. I worry about the level of intensity in the play because I also have young kids and I don't want that crazy play going on while the kids are in the yard too. So yeah, when I say "enough"...I mean ENOUGH. So when I think the play is getting too rough, I step in and separate. So far, they are respecting that (although my GSD is only 5 months so I'm sure she'll be testing me soon!).


The gsd is always the one controlling the play. In top, chasing, etc. She initiates it whether he wants to or not. She can throw him around pretty easily. On the other hand if he wants to play and she doesn't, she won't play. 

She will take hold of his neck and throw him on the floor. Rarely, if she is already laying down and he walks past, she will play from the bottom, but not for long.


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