# Looking for an IL/Midwest Breeder who Tests for DM



## Wolfenstein (Feb 26, 2009)

I originally posted this in the other thread looking for a breeder in the same area, but someone suggested I start a new one.

I'm looking for a breeder preferably in IL within decent range of Chicago, but I had a question regarding health testing. I'm specifically looking for a pet dog because I don't have any specific training goals in mind like gaining titles, but I would prefer working line dogs because I feel their structure tends to be more what I personally envision the "correct" GSD structure to be, and I would definitely pursue obedience, tracking, and possibly Schutzhund if I wound up with a dog that had a desire to work. I really want to find a breeder who tests for things like DM as opposed to only testing for HD. I'm also curious if anyone has any suggestions of other problems GSDs are prone to that can be tested ahead of time. Chicagoland breeders would be best because it would be easy for us to visit, but breeders from south Wisconsin and northeast Indiana would also be ok. I suppose Michigan wouldn't be too big of a stretch, either.

Someone else in the other thread brought up the fact that the DM test is currently still being researched, but I would still prefer a breeder who tests their dogs since a clear dog is still a clear dog, and it's still possible to breed a clear dog to a carrier dog and get all puppies who don't have both the genes. I understand that an affected dog still may not develop DM, but I personally don't want to take that risk. This is the whole reason I'm considering going with a breeder as opposed to adoption, I feel the higher price I'm paying is an investment in the health of my future dog. If I have to go further for a breeder that tests, then I'm more than willing to do so. 

Thanks so much for the help!


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Hello from Northern, Illinois!

I dont know about DM testing but I am going to get a puppy from Chuck when I am ready, his website is German Shepherd breeder, German Shepherd puppies,  Czech German Shepherd Puppies, 815-787-4618 He has some awesome dogs! 

I LOVE his Ghost :wub::wub::wub::wub::wub::wub:


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

DM testing is nowhere near the norm, and you will have a hard time to #1 find someone who tests their dogs at all, and #2 find someone who tests their dogs consistently.

On top of that, it is another thing that would unfortunately limit the gene pool even further


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## Wolfenstein (Feb 26, 2009)

So what, then, in the whole of the GSD community, it's impossible to find a breeder that takes DM into account? It's not about lowering the gene pool by only breeding clear dogs, it's about being _smart _when breeding known carriers. I have no problem with a breeder that would even consider using an affected dog, so long as the the other dog was clear. That way, even though all the puppies would be carriers, they would also be unaffected by the disease. I refuse to believe there's no one out there that's doing this. Obviously, it's only one of many things that needs to be considered when breeding, but it doesn't mean it should be _ignored_!


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> So what, then, in the whole of the GSD community, it's impossible to find a breeder that takes DM into account?


I didn't say that. What I DID say was that DM testing is NOT the norm. It's also hard to breed the way you suggest when people don't test for it.

What makes it even more difficult is that a few tests that were formerly required for the "CHIC" designation of the GSDs health testing have recently been altered. DM testing is no longer required to receive a CHIC rating. It is an optional test.

A dog is now only required to be OFA Hips and Elbows, and to have passed the GSDCA Temperament Test

http://www.caninehealthinfo.org/brdreqs.html?breed=GS


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## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

I would check out :: BILL KULLA DOG TRAINING ::
I know his male Kway has participated in 2 different scientific studies. One for DM and the other for EPI. Also hip and elbows checked.

Your best bet is going to be to contact the breeders you are interested in and ask what kind of health tests are done. Sometimes it's not always mentioned on their websites. If the dogs aren't tested for DM you might want to check different ways such as asking if any of the offspring have ever developed DM. Any siblings? Etc.


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## Wolfenstein (Feb 26, 2009)

I know, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to sound like I was "attacking" or anything, I know you didn't say that. It's just frustrating that it's not the norm for people to test. I'm having a hard time looking at breeders when the disease isn't even mentioned, I don't understand why it seems like some people would pretend it's a non issue. I didn't mean to lash out at YOU, just lashing out in general! I know it's going to be hard to find a breeder like I'd prefer, but I was hoping to at least get some leads by posting here.


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## boeselager (Feb 26, 2008)

There are some breeders that do not believe or don't want to test for DM and I'm sure that they have their own reasons for this. However, I'm testing my dog's for the DM as I can. It is a horrible disease (not the only 1 for GSD's), and I for one want my dog's tested.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Wolfenstein, in the CHIC Database, there are currently 485 dogs that are CHIC certified for the GSD. That is obviously NOT a lot, considering how many GSDs are whelped every year! In addition to that, many of them are NOT DM tested, due to the change in "rules" for the GSD testing.

Just trying to give you some perspective. I DO think more testing should be done. But more research also needs to be done 

The best thing you can do is be forward (but polite) and ask about DM within the line of dogs you're looking at.


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## mayhemkb (Aug 27, 2010)

Donna @ Eclipse Shepherds does. She is an ASL and WGSD breeder in Minneapolis MN. She will openly admit that her dogs are not typically suitable in the Schutzhund ring so not much help if you really want to pursue that-but her dogs excel in rally, agility, and UCK obedience rallies (she has had several therapy certified, service dogs, and SAR dogs from her past breedings) so it depnds on where you fall on the spectrum of ASL vs GSL vs WL. 
Eclipse German Shepherds

If you lean WL Vinnie's suggestion http://www.kulladogs.com/ is a great kennel.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Wolfenstein said:


> So what, then, in the whole of the GSD community, it's impossible to find a breeder that takes DM into account? It's not about lowering the gene pool by only breeding clear dogs, it's about being _smart _when breeding known carriers. I have no problem with a breeder that would even consider using an affected dog, so long as the the other dog was clear. That way, even though all the puppies would be carriers, they would also be unaffected by the disease. I refuse to believe there's no one out there that's doing this. Obviously, it's only one of many things that needs to be considered when breeding, but it doesn't mean it should be _ignored_!


It's not impossible, but it is difficult. In my experience, there are also a huge number of serious GSD people who are unaware that the genetic marker test for DM exists. And those who are aware of it are also quite aware of the big debate on whether the test is even accurate for GSDs.

We've been testing our females, and have one who came back carrier (A/N). So in researching potential studs for her spring litter I inquired with the owner of every stud I was interested in about DM testing as I'd only want to breed her to a clear (N/N) dog to eliminate the chance of producing affected pups. Not one single stud owner I contacted had already tested their stud, and the majority didn't even know what I was talking about when I asked. Those who were aware of the test, as I said were also well aware that it was contested whether or not the test even had any value. When I asked if they'd be willing to test their stud for me, only a couple agreed to do so. 

Beyond the ignorance that the test even exists, which is prevalent, the biggest part of the problem is that very few people have the rational, balanced view of the topic that you do, in that it is only part of the overall huge list of things that needs to be taken into consideration for breeding. There are many, many people, particular "armchair breeders" on internet forums like this one, who will loudly proclaim their opinion that no dog who comes back anything less than clear should be bred.. and OFA Fairs should never be bred, and any dog who's 2nd cousin twice removed might have possibly have had allergies shoud never be bred, and... well, you get the picture. If they all had their say, there would be no GSDs left to breed at all. This irrational, paranoid attitude on the part of many people is something that breeders are very well aware of, and unfortunately it means that many would rather not know the results of tests like this than risk being crucified in the court of public opinion by people who really don't have a clue about what breeding is all about.


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## GranvilleGSD (Mar 28, 2007)

I test all of my breeding dogs not only for DM, but also Hips, Elbows, Cardiac, Thyroid, and Eyes. www.granvillegsd.com

Melinda Clark in Wisconsin tests for DM, Hips, Elbows, and Eyes on all of her breeding dogs. www.gildafk9.com

There are a few other breeders that I know of in this area that are getting at least their stud dogs tested for DM, Hips, and Elbows, possibly their other dogs too but you'd have to ask them. 
Kelly in Michigan www.boeselagerkennel.com
Mike in Illinois www.delaneyworkingdogs.com


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Chris Wild said:


> Beyond the ignorance that the test even exists, which is prevalent, the biggest part of the problem is that very few people have the rational, balanced view of the topic that you do, in that it is only part of the overall huge list of things that needs to be taken into consideration for breeding. There are many, many people, particular "armchair breeders" on internet forums like this one, who will loudly proclaim their opinion that no dog who comes back anything less than clear should be bred.. and OFA Fairs should never be bred, and any dog who's 2nd cousin twice removed might have possibly have had allergies should never be bred, and... well, you get the picture. If they all had their say, there would be no GSDs left to breed at all. This irrational, paranoid attitude on the part of many people is something that breeders are very well aware of, and unfortunately it means that many would rather not know the results of tests like this than risk being crucified in the court of public opinion by people who really don't have a clue about what breeding is all about.


I somewhat of an "armchair" breeder but my initial reaction to this thread was similar to what Chris is saying. There are so many tests for this, that, and the other thing but people need to realize that not all of these tests are 100% or even close, not all of these disorders should automatically disqualify a dog from breeding, and nothing is a substitute for all the years of working with these dogs and amassing the hands-on knowledge of their bloodlines that breeders put into their breeding programs.

It also upsets me how our litigious culture that wants to blame everyone else and make them pay is now spilling over into dog ownership. EVERY puppy is a gamble. You simply cannot "guarantee" hips or DM or anything else.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Chris said exactly what I was trying to say...she just said it better xD


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I know Kim of JustK9's DM tests her dogs, I believe wanda (kleinenhain) also tests her..Kim is in CA and wanda in KY, both are members here


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

The breeder I'm getting my next puppy from also tests all of her dogs - Kerschberger in NM. So far she's been wonderful to work with!


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## NarysDad (Apr 29, 2010)

Chris Wild said:


> It's not impossible, but it is difficult. In my experience, there are also a huge number of serious GSD people who are unaware that the genetic marker test for DM exists. And those who are aware of it are also quite aware of the big debate on whether the test is even accurate for GSDs.


I often wonder how accurate the test is as it does come from OFA, and we all know how well they do on their ratings on hips


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Wouldn't the DM test be black/white? vs the "opinion" type rating on OFA's.


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## NarysDad (Apr 29, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> Wouldn't the DM test be black/white? vs the "opinion" type rating on OFA's.


Good question as I would like to hear your take on this question you thru out there


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## Wolfenstein (Feb 26, 2009)

The way I understand it, the dog inherits two genes, and both need to be affected for the dog develop the disease. So if n=normal and a=affected,

nn = Dog is normal and not a carrier, dog can not develop symptoms.
na = Dog is a carrier, but still can not develop symptoms.
aa = Dog is affected. However, the dog still may never develop symptoms, but this is the only genetic combo that would result in the disease.

I think where people get that the test is inaccurate is because an aa dog still may never actually be affected. However, in my opinion, since it's a SURE thing the other combos WON'T show symptoms, it's only natural to breed where you won't have a dog that's affected.

So, you can breed an nn dog to any dog, and at the worst you'll get carriers, even if you breed to an aa dog. However, if you breed an na to an na or aa, you run the risk of having affected puppies.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

That's exactly how I understand it as well. I couldn't find any examples of a NN or an NA dog coming down with symptoms of DM in my research. And not every AA dog develops symptoms, but it still seems like you'd want to avoid creating this situation in your breeding.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Is the test valid? Is the test reliable? Where are the quantitative, empirical evidence to back up the reliability and validity of this test? I will not put much trust in any test until I see evidence of the reliability and validity.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Jones had his test done through a study at University of Missouri. The test gave the results and an interpretation of the results. He came back as being a carrier.

I think they're still researching the disease, but based on the studies done so far, only affected dogs come down with symptoms.


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## boeselager (Feb 26, 2008)

I will be testing my dog's as I can. I have my main stud dog tested and he came back normal/clear of DM. The rest of my dog's will also be tested as well.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

My breeder has started testing for DM. I think that speaks well for he,r but conversely I don't think it necessarily says anything bad about those breeders who aren't doing it at this time.

While it's a B&W, yes/no test, there's considerable controversy as to whether the results are applicable to GSD. There are those who believe DM in GSD might be mediated by a different gene. Until that's resolved, some skepticism is appropriate regardless of the test results.


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## kleinenHain (Sep 20, 2007)

I will be testing all my dogs as I can as well. I have tested my main stud dog and hope to do all my dogs very soon.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> There are many, many people, particular "armchair breeders" on internet forums like this one, who will loudly proclaim their opinion that no dog who comes back anything less than clear should be bred.. and OFA Fairs should never be bred, and any dog who's 2nd cousin twice removed might have possibly have had allergies shoud never be bred, and... well, you get the picture. If they all had their say, there would be no GSDs left to breed at all.


Chris, I absolutely agree with your assessment on this. Like Lies, I'm among those 'armchair breeders'. Although I don't breed, I think I have a generally good grasp of the complexity & nuanced judgments involved in making sound breeding decisions.

In one sense, modern breeding would be greatly improved if breeders would simply commit to breeding healthy, sound long lived bitches to healthy, sound long lived dogs from generally healthy, sound long lived families. Overly simplified yes, but tragically far too many breeders refuse to adhere to even those broadly simplified common sense 'rules'. sighhhh. Just remember the Cavalier stud from _Pedigreed Dogs Exposed, _bred how many times & KNOWN to be affected by sphyngomyelia (that's probably an atrocious misspelling of the condition).

Navigating the search for good breeders is tricky on both sides of testing. Chris, you, Cliff, Doc & others have talked in depth about healthy dogs beyond healthy hips & heathy hips beyond test results. I respect your(plural) knowledge & commitment enormously. You are among those breeders I consider savvy & trustworthy. However, there are shady breeders who will say much the same thing while using it as an excuse to not test. Buyers need to be alert & beware the difference.

And then there are breeders who only breed from tested, cleared stock yadda yadda while never mentioning how little that means. There simply aren't many definitive tests for the myriad health problems afflicting so many pb dogs. I'm interested in how long & how well a breeder's dogs live. What health/temperament problems are seen & how frequently? Are the dogs generally heathy, robust, long lived? What are their special needs, dietary requirements etc? These things mean more to me than simply running this test or that test.

I've met too many owners whose beloved pups suffered from hideous allergies, diabetes, serious digestive disorders, shaky temperaments, early kidney or liver failure & on & on. The owners are stunned b/c their pups were carefully acquired from breeders who screened for eyes, hips, VWD & heart...Yanno, breeders who did more tests than any other breeder they considered. (& usually had more champions, too)

So, yeah, testing has its place but it's definitely a limited place & not the end all be all in any good breeding program. Beware those breeders that treat testing like a 'Magic Bullet'. Even if breeding got to where it should be, & rigorously selected for sound, healthy dogs of exemplary temperaments, there are no Magic Bullets & there will always be pups with health problems, sometimes tragically serious problems.

Of course this puts a great deal on buyers who must (shudder) learn to study, analyze & THINK when deciding on a breeder.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

My dog tested as carrier and he has symptoms. The exact diagnosis is only possible at necropsy. Neither our neurologist nor a specialist at UC Davis we are working with on treatment are convinced that the test fully holds for GSDs. There is not enough data and the best data were obtained for corgies. The question is to which extent the test is breed dependent. Seeing my dog and his test results, I question this.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

It's absolutely a controversial test. Additionally, I know that for many human conditions, the heterozygote (ie 'carrier') is not phenotypically identical to those that don't carry the gene. Clinically, the symptoms are often much reduced & milder, but there is still a measureable effect. I've wondered how true that is with DM, ie are 'carriers' truly unaffected & indistinguishable from those entirely clear of the gene, or does it manifest much more mildly? If so, to what extent?

There are so many unanswered questions & so much work still to be done...Despite that, I'm encouraged that people are seeking answers.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

My dog has a slow progression, but the symptoms look like DM. The neurologist agrees that DM is the most likely cause.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

How old is your guy & when did his symptoms start? Have you had any luck controlling the progression? I wish both of you luck & hope it goes as well as it can. 

I don't in any way doubt your neurologists conclusions. (Even I'm not *that* arrogant). Your situation reminds me again of my deep seated skepticism regarding truly asymptomatic heterozygotes.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

He is 11 and he started developing symptoms 6-12 months ago. We are getting ready for stem cell treatment. They had dramatic improvement in GSDs and no improvement in corgies, which would suggest that there is a difference between the breeds.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

I'm glad he didn't develop it at a super young age. There is no 'good age', but it's such a double whammy when dogs are stricken in their youth.

I don't know if it's true or not, but I've read speculations that there might be 2 variants of the disease, or possibly even 2 entirely different diseases, one which presents young & the other which doesn't present until after 9yrs of age.

Me & mine have all fingers & paws crossed for success with the sc treatments.

My Sam is 12 now & there's just something golden about canine seniors. There is nothing deeper than the relationship with a mature dog (or bitch!)


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

Thank you! I agree about the seniors. I lost my other guy at 9.5 to hemangiosarcoma and I felt robbed of his golden years.

My boy still thinks he is a puppy and runs around with the ball and down the stairs (very dangerous with DM). He does not know that something is wrong with him. He even likes being the center of attention at the vet's office. We are lucky that his progression is slow and I am very hopeful with the upcoming stem cell treatment.

Thank you for the good wishes, seniors are the best!


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

I recently tested all of my dogs (or their parents) and was glad to say that they all came back as not having the gene. You don't have to do the test through OFA, and I didn't. This is the company I went with -- DNA Test for Canine Degenerative Myelopathy (DM) 

When I told some friends of mine that I had done the testing, I had several GSD breeders reply that the test was unreliable, was developed for another breed, and that dogs who tested clear had gotten what appeared to be DM. So maybe there's additional genes playing a role in the illness in GSDs, or more than one type of DM in the breed--hopefully that will be sorted out in the next few years.

Nevertheless, I think there's no good excuse *not* to test and no good excuse not to use the info that results. 

I hope they come up with something to help us test for hemangiosarcoma someday soon--that is killing way too many GSDs.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I agree that testing should be done, but results should be used with caution until more data are available for GSDs. Even the veterinarians treating my dog disagreed in the interpretation of the results. One said that DM is ruled out with the test, which would leave disk disease. Sedation in myelogram are really bad for DM dogs and I did not want to go that way. The neurologist felt that the test cannot rule out DM for my dog and a third vet recommended against MRI that requires sedation for further testing. 

If it is just for the sake of testing, it is one class of problem. However, it is bad if the test, based on limited data for GSDs, is used to rule out DM and follow treatment options that can potentially harm a DM dog.


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## Buckhunter (Nov 8, 2008)

sorry to ask a stupid question but what exactly is DM ??? and what does it do to the dog??


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Degenerative Myelopathy. The dog slowly loses the use of its rear :-/


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## boeselager (Feb 26, 2008)

Our main stud dog and 1 of our female's that just had a litter tested Clear of DM through OFA. You can read about DM here, www.caninegeneticdiseases.net/DM/mainDM.htm Also if you Google it you will have a lot of information to look at. We are going to test the rest of our breeding dog's as we can. We also had some breeders tell us the same thing Christine, and we just say "To each their own" on how they want to run their breeding business/program. We personally feel better doing the test than not. Better to be safe than sorry down the road.


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## SentinelHarts (May 7, 2011)

Gildafk9 is in the Illinois area. Melinda has wonderful dogs and tests them all for DM

www.gildafk9.com


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## vontief (Sep 21, 2011)

Hi, i breed the german showlines, i know its not what you are looking for but i wanted to say i have started to test my breeding stock for DM. so far i have 2 girls DM clear and 1 boy carrier. i feel its the right thing to do and i may be the only one here in wisconsin doing it. i think you are right and people should know ,. i dont believe in breeding affected DM and will never breed them. i am gald there is testing for DM. bea
www.vontief.com


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