# I failed to ask what type of pup we got...



## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

I kind of remember her talk about how she bred show dogs and pet quality dogs etc. She said she can't tell what type of pup she has until it's a little older. 7 weeks or more I think? Well, pet quality I think I mean family dog and not for showing...

I noticed some posts say some GSD's are working dogs? Then there are some that are show dogs?

When we chose our pup she was cheaper then her two sisters that were in her litter. Her sisters were...get ready...2,000-2,500 dollars.

But, our beautiful girl is only 800? What the heck! She looks perfectly fine to me. I guess I don't really understand why she is so different from her sisters. We didn't care because we are not going to show her and just have her as a good family dog/companion.

Plus, she was in our budget.

My question is if she isn't show worthy then what is she? I will have to ask the breeder to really specify. At this point it doesn't matter because we adore her. I was just curious about the different types of GSD's. 

Thanks!


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

look on pedigreedatabase.com to see if the parents of your pup are listed there, then paste the link on here so we can look at the pedigree and tell you what lines you have. but 2000-2500 sounds like showlines.


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

Not all pups in a litter are suitable for showing just like not all pups from a working litter are suitable for work. Some breeders will let the pet quaility puppies go for cheaper. Doesn't mean there is something wrong with the pup. But you could always ask her why she feels your pup is just pet quality.


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: GSDBESTK9Not all pups in a litter are suitable for showing just like not all pups from a working litter are suitable for work. Some breeders will let the pet quaility puppies go for cheaper. Doesn't mean there is something wrong with the pup. But you could always ask her why she feels your pup is just pet quality.


Thank you. We did make it clear we didn't want a show dog and wanted pet quality. I noticed she is 10 months old and her left ear is still flopped over a little bit and her right ear stands up. Though, the breeder says it can be fixed. I did read through some posts about ears and it doesn't sound too promising.







I think it looks cute!









I will look up her parents. I will post in a bit.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Post a picture of your sweetie and I'm sure there are folks on here that can advise on her ear. When it doubt tape it.


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

Well there you go, you cannot show a dog with floppy ears, even if it is just one. And you are right, at 10 months of age, it is most likely going to stay that way, but hey, I think it gives them character.


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

She claims it can be fixed...we shall see! If not, I could care less. But, not sure about my fiance...

Oh boy. 


We pick her up Friday, I will post pictures that day. =)


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

Well, unless she knows some miraculous way to fix it, I really doubt it. If she is trying to convince you that it will be fixed, I would be leery.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

If it could've been fixed, she would've prob. done it by now and sold it for more money, so she's probably tried already.

either way they're still cute.


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

She is a very intelligent woman and has been doing this for years and years. She was very honest with us about the other litters and what would not suit our growing family. I'd hate to find out she lied about an ear.









Would a flop to one ear stop you from buying her even if you already fell in love with the dog? 

Now I am worried, lol. I will discuss this ear issue with my guy when I get home from work. If he doesn't care, I certainly don't care.


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

It would not stop me from buying her if it was just a pet and I didn't care that the ear will never come up. However, if she has "lied" promising that the ear WILL be fixed, then I would be leery about what else she is telling me that is not so.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Personally I wouldn't buy a GSD with a floppy ear from a breeder just because I do care about ears. On the other hand, if I got a puppy and his ears for some reason didn't stand than it wouldn't be a big deal in that case because the most important thing in a GSD is temperament, not even looks, and the puppy would be part of the family already. I would adopt a GSD with a floppy ear from a rescue, though.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

I wouldn't care about the ear itself.I think you will just have to watch it closer for infections.I would be concerned if the breeder is telling you it can be fixed and having other knowledgeable people/breeders saying it is too late.If everything else looks good and you don't care about perfection keep your plans of getting her.Did you tell us who you are getting her from?Feedback here could also help on the issue.PM if anyone has negative remarks on the breeder if she says who it is.


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: GSDBESTK9It would not stop me from buying her if it was just a pet and I didn't care that the ear will never come up. However, if she has "lied" promising that the ear WILL be fixed, then I would be leery about what else she is telling me that is not so.


Your right. We will give her a call tomorrow before we pick up the pup Friday and just ask her about the ear. I will mention it doesn't bother me hopefully she will just say it's a 50/50 chance of standing up. I mean if she wants to tape or glue the ear this week then so be it.









She said she needs a day to get the pup ready. Bathe and groom, etc. Maybe she will glue the ear too.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

I would also want to know why she still has the pup at 10 months old - I know there are a lot of reasons but I'd want to feel comfortable with the reason.


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

Her website is:

http://www.german-shepherd.com/


Let me know what you think.


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Barb E.I would also want to know why she still has the pup at 10 months old - I know there are a lot of reasons but I'd want to feel comfortable with the reason.


She said she just wasn't for sale. Her sisters were there too and were a lot higher priced. 

I will write this down to ask though. I can't believe we left out such questions! 

She has pups year round.


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## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

800 vs 2000- is a huge jump, I'm a sceptic & would ask for vet records, would have a thorough vet check done including hip & elbow films, I would not expect the floppy ear to ever stand completely (but it would also not stop me from getting a dog I liked), I'd take this dog out into public areas with lots of people/dogs & see if she is very reactive.

Why did the breeder keep 3 (or more?) pups from the same litter & then decide to sell them at 10 months?


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

unless she's showing all the sisters too, i wonder why there for so long. Yes keep a couple back to see which one is better, but hmnn.

as for the website, there's not alot of info.


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

She will be giving us all her vet records etc. She said she has all her shots and just needs her rabies shot. She will give us pedigree certificate, etc. etc. 

I am so worried now.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

That is a big price difference between littermates, but I'm guessing the discount is due to the ear not coming up. 

ETA: She hasn't had her rabies shot yet, at 10 months old?


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

She is 10 months old and has never had her rabies shot??? Hmmm


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

the economy is in very very bad shape in michigan, which could have something to do with why these puppies are still with the breeder. unless you get some pm's with news that concerns you more, i would put off worrying a bit. i have heard of whistledown and joli, but know nothing about them.


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

katie,

Yes, Michigan is in bad shape. She probably isn't doing well with selling pups at the moment. Her one litter that is up for sale and there were 6 pups. All the males had deposits on them and spoken for. The two girls were left. But, priced at 1000.


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## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

> Quote: All of our dogs are sold on a "first come, first serve" basis. Customers can place deposits for specific litters and first pick is given to the person who first placed their deposit, second pick to the second person and so on.


This would give me pause...

Are her dogs kept in the house or in kennels? where are pups littered & kept until 8-12 weeks (I assume most of her sales would be these pups), how are the olders pups kept & socialized?
eg, has the 10mo old girl you're considering ever been off the property or been on outings as a solo dog? is she more human or dog focused - not saying that you can't change this but do look at how interested this pup is in you & how important this is to you, eg are you looking for a cuddle dog or will you be equally happy with a dog that loves you but prefers to be across the room rather than under your feet ...


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## AniasGSDs (Oct 18, 2004)

Their web site looks "nice” on the surface (this my opinion after only looking at it very quickly), however, I don't see any actual conformation, obedience or working titles for any of their dogs. In the history, they briefly mention that they did these things, maybe years ago, but now, they seem to be "living off" that. 

Also, for you not to have known what type of pup you got – pet or show – tells me that the seller is not educating the new owners properly – not a good sign!

There might not be anything wrong with them, but I would definitely learn as much as you can here ask as a lot more questions about this puppy BEFORE you pay for her and bring her home. And make sure you have a contract in writing.

Ania


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

She has kennels. Her county is very strict about breeders too. No pups were in her house. All in the back where she had kennels set up, etc. 

This pup doesn't seem too socialized yet. That concerned me too. But, I was hoping we could do that by taking her to training classes and showing her how to be more social. 

She was a sweet girl. She was timid towards us but she never once snipped, growled or bit. She most likely will need a lot of work, but my fiance said he was up to the task.


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## NWS_Haven (Mar 24, 2003)

I've seen quite a few Joli dogs mentioned in AKC show results but I don't know how active they still are in showing themselves. I'm pretty sure they have a pretty decent reputation in this area but I'm not real familiar with American show line breeders.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

when in doubt


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: AniadoubleTheir web site looks "nice” on the surface (this my opinion after only looking at it very quickly), however, I don't see any actual conformation, obedience or working titles for any of their dogs. In the history, they briefly mention that they did these things, maybe years ago, but now, they seem to be "living off" that.
> 
> Also, for you not to have known what type of pup you got – pet or show – tells me that the seller is not educating the new owners properly – not a good sign!
> 
> ...


She said she would provide us with a contract, and more. Back where the kennels were in their office there was a lot of plaques, awards, and pictures of their show dogs. 

She has been doing this for 40 years. Maybe letting go of a pup for 800 isn't much a of a big deal to her like it may have been years ago.

Again, like katie mentioned. The economy sucks! 

I am just worried about her timidness. We did meet the pups mother and father. The mother was very quiet as well though and just watched us. Never barked. The female dog next to her though was just barking like crazy, obviously the Alpha female.


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

The first 6 months of a pup's life are the most important when it comes to socializing. I would be concerned that this dog has never left her kennels and it is now 10 months old. Would she let you take her for a trip to a park or some where new to see how she reacts?


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## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

> Quote: I am so worried now.


Don't be too worried, just be clear about your expectations & if this is the right dog for you - how dog experienced are you?
Given the training focus of the breeder, I'd expect this pup to be well started in manners, socialized with strange dogs, happy to meet people.
The lack of rabies shot would not worry me (but I live in an area where rabies is v rare).
Do you have information on the parents? 

Are you in a position to get a second dog if this girl needs company at home?


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

Well thanks for the advice everyone. This will be something I will have to discuss with my fiance. I don't want to worry myself right now. 

Honestly, this has made me iffy but I may take the chance and give this pup a home.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Schotzi She was a sweet girl. She was* timid towards us *but she never once snipped, growled or bit. She most likely will need a lot of work, but my fiance said he was up to the task.


Pass and run away. If she was timid on her own grounds at 10 months old then she has weak nerves I'm almost 100% positive. She will need a lot of work and lifelong management and you have NO IDEA how much effort it involves unless you worked with a GSD with fear issues before. I am speaking from experience. 

ETA Alpha dogs don't bark like crazy...


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Alto
> 
> 
> > Quote: I am so worried now.
> ...


Pups parents names are Alexander and Isabella. That's all I know right now. I don't know the full name of the dogs if they have one. 

I met both. The male was more alert and the mother was very soft and quiet.


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: GSD07
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Schotzi She was a sweet girl. She was* timid towards us *but she never once snipped, growled or bit. She most likely will need a lot of work, but my fiance said he was up to the task.
> ...


That is disappointing and not what I wanted to hear.







I figured she is still somewhat young that she would change.

I will break the news. 

Thank you.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

Usually up to 6 months. Again, see if she can meet you somewhere off of her property to see how the dog is. If still the same(probably will be) then pass. Socializing is extremely important as young puppies, by 10 months old it's pretty well set unfortunately.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: SchotziThe economy sucks!


the economy has sucked for more than a couple of months -- she needs to stop breeding for awhile if she's producing more litters than she can sell and handle.

a 10mo old with a soft ear that is timid, untrained and unsocialized? sounds like one of many dogs that are in rescues and shelters... honestly i'd expect a lot more going thru a breeder, even if she is 'discounted'.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

If you do decide to bring her home expect to do lots of work with her.She may not be a total loss but will need lots of training and socialization.Good luck on your decision and keep us updated.


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

Thanks again everyone. I will make sure and update on our decision.


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## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

Warning personal anecdote









A friend got a gorgeous 9mo old smooth collie on a co-owner contract from a local breeder - she got a second pup 2 weeks later from a friend (that wanted to keep 2 males back for future prospect) as Abi was a absolute nervous wreck (my friend did not want to return her).
Kao was the perfect human's dog, he always wanted to please & he became my heart dog (I walked/played with these dogs everyday for ~5years), Abi (who was spayed re her instability of temperament) was a wonderful dog BUT she took a tremendous amount of commitment in that first year & was never a dog that worried much about pleasing her humans: even at her most affectionate, she appeared aloof & careless (in a stanger's view).

My friend never regretted keeping Abi. 
She was not dog experienced when she got Abi.

Yes, Abi was fear reactive/aggressive & did require muzzling at times but after a couple of years, management was sufficient & she was rarely muzzled; however, Kao was her constant companion - we would train on opposite sides of the street, go opposite directions on the block BUT Kao had to be within sight for Abi to remain calm outside the home. At home, she could be left in her crate while Kao went out, she was nervous in the house without his presence but was a reactive barking maniac in the yard without him (she was the alpha in the pair) - Kao did a few shows but was too stocky for the judges









Eventually these 2 dogs were walked on a tandem or on an 'invisible' 20 foot leash (at that time city bylaws required dogs to be under control at all times but not necessarily on a physical leash), both had excellent recall & immediate 'freeze & drop' command. Just in case, Abi was leashed on any busy streets or in crowds (her definition of crowd was >5-10 people). Kao starred in alot of tourist photos.


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

Seems as though people were wondering why this pup was priced so much cheaper then her sisters. My fiance just informed me it is because the shape of our potential pup is more square then her sisters which would not work for a show dog.

If he heard her right, that is why she isn't as expensive.


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

Also,

Here is the breeders sales contract:

http://www.german-shepherd.com/sales_contract.htm


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: GSD07
> Pass and run away. If she was timid on her own grounds at 10 months old then she has weak nerves I'm almost 100% positive. She will need a lot of work and lifelong management and you have NO IDEA how much effort it involves unless you worked with a GSD with fear issues before. I am speaking from experience.
> 
> ETA Alpha dogs don't bark like crazy...


Agree 100%. Pass on this dog.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

um , yeah ok.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: SchotziAlso,
> 
> Here is the breeders sales contract:
> 
> http://www.german-shepherd.com/sales_contract.htm


this isnt the contract... you will want to read an actual copy of their contract/warranty ahead of time before making your decision. since chris responded above me, i'll use her warranty as an example of how each statement needs to be broken down: http://www.wildhauskennels.com/warranty.htm


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

Thank you. I believe she said we would be getting a copy of a contract. I will not purchase this pup until I have a it in my hand. 

This german lady is tough as cookies, but I have a whole new load of questions to fire at her.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Make sure you get a copy of the contract/warranty BEFORE you go to pick up the dog. You want to have a chance to review it and ask any questions on your own time without any pressure from the breeder or impatience because you want to hurry up and get out the door with a dog.

10 months, unsocialized, timid... I still say pass, though.


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

I'm sorry, I know you must be dissapointed as it seems like you have already fallen in love with this pup, however, it sounds to me like you should pass on this dog. If you do end up getting her, be prepared and willing to spend a lot of money on training and time on socializing the heck out of her. But again, at 10 months old already, don't know how much she will improve. Definitely, don't expect the ear to come up.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

We routinely get dogs in rescue who are older than 10 months, very shy, and yet are rehabilitatable and turn out to be great family pets. Basically it comes down to WHY the dog is acting shy. If a dog has had every advantage and been shown the world and is still shy, then yes, that's weak nerves, and not fixable. If a dog has never been anywhere or seen anything, then shyness is to be expected, and can be overcome by dedicated owners (although the dog may or may not ever be as friendly as it would have been had it had a better upbringing). HOWEVER, that's rescue. The shy dogs are largely coming from situations where they are unwanted or neglected or abused. There's no excuse for a 10 month old dog at a breeder's place being that unsocialized. So... either she's got genetic weak nerves, or the breeder is doing a very shoddy job with her puppy rearing and you are not doing her dogs any favors by financially encouraging her to continue. People like this won't improve their breeding or handling practices as long as people keep buying their dogs.









Are there are other signs this may be an iffy breeding situation? Do you have documentation of health screenings (hips, elbows, etc) for the parents?

I admire your desire to be good owners and your commitment to whatever challenges. Just wanting to make sure that you get the best start possible. FYI, there are a lot of gorgeous older purebred GSD puppies in the same age range available via rescue with no temp problems at all for a fraction of the cost.


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

I will see if the breeder will email us a copy of the contract/warranty before we drive yet another 2 hour drive out there. Construction here is **** as well. 

What I saw when I went there is that she is more dog friendly, seeing that there were GSD's all around. She loved the breeder though. She licked her hands and put her face in her lap. I think this pup has potential, though, with tons of socializing and training. 

She was going to give us all the documentations when we went back. Health screenings, registry (AKC), pedigree I believe, etc. 

She seems to think we made a good choice and I honestly don't think this woman who has been doing this for years would jeapordize my family with a god awful dog when she knows our baby is due in August. 

My mind is just scattered now. I really want to talk with this breeder some more and bring up all the concerns you guys have mentioned. I really appreciate everyones concern. I will update in a couple days.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Schotzi
> I think this pup has potential, though, with tons of socializing and training.


 What would you be willing to do and how much time to spend on her daily socializing, exercising and training?


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: GSD07
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Schotzi
> ...


We plan to find a good trainer somewhere in Ingham county here in Michigan. I was told there are a few good ones. As far as exercising; we live in an area with lots of sidewalks. We will take her for walks. I am home half the day; then my fiance gets home at 3:30 pm. I will take her for a walk in the morning. Then later on when we are both home we have a nice park not too far from our house. I'd like to get her excercise in daily though (I need it too!) lol. We are building her a kennel; just like she knows. When I am just busy around the house she can spend a little time out there running freely. She will be a house dog though. Also, his parents have a springer spaniel. We planned to introduce this pup to her in about 2months after being around people and sounds. We live near a city so there is lots of noises.

Socializing; at this pont take baby steps. Start at home and so forth. We do have a cat Muffins! That would be interesting to say the least... 

Once she is comfortable she will be riding in my fiances car everywhere I am sure, lol. He will show her off when she is ready.

This was the plan anyway. We are not horrible people that would keep her kenneled up or in the house 24/7. My fiance is from the country his parents have lots of land for her to run on with the other dog.

I just had Marshal call the breeder about 20 minutes ago. She told us with the contract that will give us it also states any hereditary problems (hips, elbows) etc. is covered for a lifetime. She also did tell the truth and said that it will take awhile to train this pup because it has had no training whatsoever. Also, she stated it will take months to train her, 7 months or however long it takes. 

I am sure I left something out. But, we are going to look for a breeder closer to here and scope it out just to compare. 

This is the best we can do. And if that isn't good enough, then I don't know anymore.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Why has she left this dog unsocialized and untrained for 10 months though? While it's all too common, that's not something good breeders do, no matter how long they've been breeding.


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: pupresqWhy has she left this dog unsocialized and untrained for 10 months though? While it's all too common, that's not something good breeders do, no matter how long they've been breeding.


I'm not sure.







I said the same thing. She trained the pups two sisters but not her! 

Poor thing. Just because she wasn't show quality she didn't get training yet.


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## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

find a trainer before you pick up the pup - call your community centre, vets & local petshops for names of people/classes you can visit this week.

Are there any other potential doggie friends in your neighborhood? - especially with experienced owners that can help you?

Think about how committed you can be to this dog financially (eg, can you afford a behavorist or private trainer if that is what she needs for awhile - is there anyone even in your area?). 
How available is the breeder - go with your feelings on this, if you're comfortable & she has time/inclination to help, that will make a tremendous difference.

How outgoing a dog does Marshal want? will he be OK should she turn out to be the submissive dog wherever he goes, if she continues to be timid about everything in life ...

Sit down & make a list together of all the things you hope/want to do with your future dog & then try to rate them as negotiable vs non-negotiable.

Take this list to the breeder (current & future) & ask if she feels her pup will be able to do all these things: if this pup has lived her life in a very quiet <u>routine</u>, always surrounded by her sib's etc, then insist that she go with you to a nearby park, busy parking lot etc (ie lots of different sorts of people, sounds, scents) & assess the dog there: if the dog can take confidence from her breeder, then she'll likely be able to take that from you too once she's bonded ...


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote:I said the same thing. She trained the pups two sisters but not her!
> 
> Poor thing. Just because she wasn't show quality she didn't get training yet.


That's a shame. The thing is, there are critical periods with puppies, just like with children, and even though she may grow up to be a happy dog, it's going to take a lot more work than it would have otherwise and she may never reach her full potential. To do what this woman has done is sort of like not giving your child any education or letting them around new people or away from the house until they were 13 or 14 years old. They might grow up "okay" with a lot of work, but it would certainly be a difficult start to overcome and would not be an ethical or optimum. Now, I know dogs aren't kids, but a 10 month old puppy is like a teenager and this one has now missed out on a lot of stuff.


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Altofind a trainer before you pick up the pup - call your community centre, vets & local petshops for names of people/classes you can visit this week.
> 
> Are there any other potential doggie friends in your neighborhood? - especially with experienced owners that can help you?
> 
> ...


I leave work in an hour. I will sit down with Marshal and write a list like you said as far as what he wants from his new pup. 

I just got done surfing the web for high rated trainers in my area. I printed them off and I am ready to present them to Marshal as well. The cost is running at 95 dollars for a 6 week course. All of the trainers I found offer a class for shy and timid dogs to help socialize them.

If we decide on getting her would it be best to take this class first then once she passes that (hopefully) begin to take other training classes? 

She did take to the breeder that is why I believe she would take to people in general and us once she is socialized.

We are well aware of training costs and how long it will take. Marshal is well aware too; even after I just spoken with him about all the concerns everyone addressed on here. He seems confident in taking her to training, etc. 

Her purchase is still not set in stone but we are still going to discuss this later today.

I will call a trainer this week and ask questions about this particular dog. Hopefully they will be honest about how trainable she is and not just say what we want to hear.

Thanks again!


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## Emily (Nov 8, 2008)

Even though she's less expensive than her littermates, that is A LOT of money for an unsocialized 10 month old. People around here in the sport GIVE away well-bred, well-socialized dogs (that have foundation training!), purely because they don't turn out to be good sport prospects. I almost always know of someone trying to find a great home for a young dog that isn't going to work out for competition.

If I were you, I would get in contact with the Schutzhund clubs in your area/state and see if there are any dogs like this out there. Also, I would be concerned as to whether or not this dog will be sound around a baby (and then toddler), having not had much exposure to the world during her critical socialization period. I'd say that's a 50/50 chance.

I know how hard it is to let go of something that you're already attached to, but I think you could find a much better dog (for less money) with a little more time and research.

Good Luck!
Emily


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## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

I would plan on taking her to formal training classes for at least the next 2 years (most classes here are 10-12 weeks), when there is a hiatus in classes, organize a fun group that meets every week or 2, look for dog groups in your area that do tracking, agility, herding etc.
This pup may need to repeat some class levels to build her confidence (you want her doing stuff that she can easily get _right_ as well as stuff that challenges her).

Do discuss whether you would be comfortable adding a second dog.

Make sure that Marshal interacts with her while you & the breeder stand at some distance - I suspect he'd be pretty disappointed if she snubbed him for the next 6months, so if she's distant or uncomfortable with men, then he should know before you take her home (usually this just takes a little effort at bond building to resolve).


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Schatzi, I don't think that the real question here is whether this puppy can turn out to be a good pet prospect or not, because it does seem that you and Marshall are dedicated to giving her the best chance possible, but the issue here, as others have said, is the ethics of a so-called "good" breeder who allowed a dog of her own breeding to grow up without proper socialization, which is crucial, and then selling her and passing off the responsibility of working and socializing the dog to someone else. 

I have a rescue dog that I believe was a tied dog until about one year of age, that was picked up as a stray. Had a lot of work to do to socialize her, and she turned out okay, but that is a stray, a shelter dog. NOT a dog that I BOUGHT from a breeder, and I would never support a breeder who would allow one of her own dogs to end up in that situation. That is why reputable breeders only breed a few litters a year, like one or two, so that they can give each and every dog the attention, socializing and training required, even if they end up keeping pups back for several months. 

All a big learning process in what to consider when looking for a pup, because BUYING a puppy with issues, allows "breeders" to continue producing puppies with issues.

Invest your time, energy, money, love and effort in rescuing a dog that may not have a chance otherwise. The breeder sounds like she is doing you a favor by offering you this pup at a reduced rate, but in reality, you would be doing HER a favor in giving the dog the time of day she so desperately needs. Maybe the breeder should be paying you to take her?

Like I said, the pup may turn out fine with time and effort, or she may continue to be fearful and shy, which could lead to a lot of behaviour issues. Some to consider: submissive peeing, fear biting, not being able to leave the house, or ride in the car, or go anywhere public. Some dogs will cower and shake at a loud noise, TV, washing machine, a plastic bag blowing in the wind may cause them to bolt in panic. Such an experience may generalize itself to fear and panic at anything that remotely looks like a plastic bag, etc . . .

Again, she may turn out fine, but she may not . . . then you have to live with these behaviours for the rest of her life. Just some things to consider in you decision.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Could not agree more!


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

I think a lot depends on the dogs nerves, well I think it ALL depends on the dogs nerves.. I have a bitch here that's spent a good majority of her life as a kennel dog.. 

She's adjusted well, maybe a little to well to living in a house and an active house at that w/lots of people coming and going.. She goes to work with me and is fine there, we track, she's been out to training too..

Sure the outside world is new to her, but she's taken it on with great strides!!







She'd make someone a nice obedience/tracking dog..


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I agree with what Lucia (Castlemaid) said. You are actually paying a lot of money to take a problem of someone else's hands. My Basu was very undersocialized when I adopted him at age 4.5. He was not a timid dog but it took a long time AND A LOT OF WORK to get him comfortable with people he didn't know. He had a decent pedigree but his breeder sold him to people who didn't take care of him for 4 years and then gave him up to rescue. I would do it over again but not when I was expecting a child and I certainly wouldn't buy a dog like that from a breeder. 

There are many wonderful, socialized and kid proven young german shepherds in foster care and they are a lot less than $900. I would suggest looking there for a nice dog to add to your family.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

This is exactly my feeling. It's not that the dog can't be turned around; it's very possible that she can, but you are doing this breeder a favor and should not be paying her $900 to treat puppies like this.









I hope something works out. You guys seem like really nice people who want to give a dog a good home. I hate to see you taken advantage of or a breeder not doing what they should and profiting from it.


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## Smith3 (May 12, 2008)

IMO it would be a "poor" "investment" - if you are going to get an "older" dog, I would go the rescue route. 

I think everyone is advising you correctly to sprint away from this breeder. Sounds fishy.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

What strikes me is that the OP is very dedicated. I hope that all turns out well and I have the feeling that it will.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Hopefully. I just worry that the next pup the breeder doesn't sell right away won't be so lucky. It's not an ethical breeding practice. 

If I were the OP and I wanted to help the dog, I'd go back to the breeder, say I'd priced out the cost of training etc and it was a lot but I really wanted to give the dog a good home, promise to stay in touch, work really hard with the puppy, and offer to reimburse her on what she's spent on vetting. The breeder ought not to be profiting from this but it would be nice to see this dog get a loving home. If the breeder really wants what's best for the puppy, she just got in over her head with too many dogs, maybe she'd go for it.


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## luvu2 (Jan 13, 2009)

This pup is a gamble.

The breeder should be THRILLED to find her a good home. If you are set on getting her then I would ask about the price. It seems very high. You can take the same risk with a rescue for a third of the price.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

i know all this must be really confusing to you, but i just want to say that the people who have responded on this thread are people who have tons of experience and, tho you may not want to give up on getting this particular puppy, the advice here is really sound.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Schotzi, go for a solid, stable, thoroughly socialized, rock steady adult or pup. You, Marshall & your baby deserve as much. You're gonna be plenty busy & plenty tired even with a well mannered, easy going adult.


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

I'm back.

Marshal and I discussed this for over an hour last night until we were blue in the face. We even looked at a couple more breeders online. We even talked to another breeder over the phone for about 20 minutes as to what she thought. She apparently as well, has been breeding GSD's since 1979. We got some good pointers from her as well.

I even looked up a few trainers around here and called a couple. They were closed but I left them messages. I hope to hear back from them today. I just want their opinion, hopefully an honest one.

I am taking into consideration everything you all have said to me. I am going to make it a point to the breeder that we feel she is priced to high for not being socialized properly. Also, the possibility of her one ear not going completely upright. 

How should I say this without sounding like I am attacking her on her breeding skills? I don't want to offend her, yet I don't agree how she raised this pup. 

So, after our long talk last night, and me getting Marshal all worried because I am a worry-wart. =) We might still get her...Marshal is taking her to all her training classes. I think we will start at home by letting her get use to us and her surrounding. Then, after that schedule her for a training class for shy dogs to help get her socialized better. 

Also, is there somewhere I can search for German Shepherd rescue places? I don't want a complete mess of a dog. One good thing about this pup; though she is shy is that she never once growled, snipped, showed her teeth. She just laid next to Marshal after he sternly told her to sit and stay. I do not want an aggressive dog and I sure hope she never shows that. I met her mother; the mother was very confident and sat right up to the kennel door. She watched us. She was so approachable. Her pups had real potential! 

Beautiful dogs.

If anyone has advice how to ask the breeder to drop the price possibly by a couple hundred dollars that would be great. Also, a link to where I can search rescue places around here if we decide to go that route. 

That pup really needs a home though; I'd hate to see such a pretty dog not get a proper place and training! 

Thanks again! =)


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

I searched the forum a bit and I saw that a GSD named Miseltoe (Missy) needs a home again. She is 7 month old GSD up for adoption here in Michigan. Couple hours away. 

http://www.mirescue.com/board/index.php?showtopic=7711=><font color=

I will show this to Marshal.

I just am not sure how much adoption is. It noted that it is pricey.


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## AniasGSDs (Oct 18, 2004)

Adoption should NOT be pricey! Typical adoption fee, from a reputable rescue, ranges anywhere from a $100 to $200 or $300. I don't think I've seen it higher then $250. 

Make sure you find out what were the specific reasons the dog was returned and what are her behavioral issues.


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## ArmyGSD (Apr 27, 2009)

If you really want a descent opinion look to what pupresq said. Try to spark a bargain with the breeder if you are still going that route. Inform her that you have worries about the dogs interaction skills, and with you about to have a child, you need to know that your dog will not act ill towards your baby.

Inform her that you are going to have training done with the dog to improve on her socialization, but inform her that due to the dogs age you would like to see her come down on her price to justify the training costs. Since this dog is already 10 Months old you should be able to get her for ATLEAST half of what you are planning on paying her. 

A good breeder would want what is best for their dog, and heck even if you agree to pay half of the vetrinary bills AFTER YOU HAVE SEEN THE TOTAL then you would be better off than buying this poor dog outright and still paying an arm and a leg for OB training. 

Good luck on your decision.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

In my opinion, I would pass on this dog. There are many out there in the rescues, and to take on an unsocialized dog when you aren't an experienced GSD owner will be a huge challenge. The breeder should not even sell this dog to you. You don't have to rush into this, even though I know it is hard to wait-but waiting is always worth it if you think things through. Just take some more time, everyone above has great advice, good luck in your search.


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

About the adoption option:
From what I read the dog was returned because the family no longer could fit her in the household. It stated that the womans children moved back in and no longer had room for this pup. It says she has good temperament and loves others dogs and cats. Which is good because we have a cat named Muffin.









MP's GSD:

I will have Marshal call her today and talk to her about the cost of the dog and how it will at least cost us 200-400dollars in training. Thanks for your input!

The breeder is asking for 800. You think we should ask for 400-500?


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: onyx'girlIn my opinion, I would pass on this dog. There are many out there in the rescues, and to take on an unsocialized dog when you aren't an experienced GSD owner will be a huge challenge. The breeder should not even sell this dog to you. You don't have to rush into this, even though I know it is hard to wait-but waiting is always worth it if you think things through. Just take some more time, everyone above has great advice, good luck in your search.


I know. More I talk to you all and the more I think about it I really want to pass on her too. But, I know that Marshal wants her. He is concerned though too. I will show him this 7month old GSD that is up for adoption and maybe, just maybe he will change his mind.

Thing is. Because we were all gunho about getting her I sent my deposit check! We thought 100% we would get her. Now I don't even know if it is refundable. 

Great. 

We really are acting like first time buyers. It shows!


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: SchotziThe breeder is asking for 800. You think we should ask for 400-500?


No, I think you shouldn't get this dog as do many on this board. But it's obvious that you have your heart set on her, so good luck!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The breeder should refund your deposit. She knows this dog is going to be hard to place unless she spends some time socializing and training it. I cannot believe she would charge so much for this particular dog. Maybe give her the link to this site and let her read the opinions that are all in agreement? 
In my town(Kalamazoo), there is an SPCA and there are two GSD pups that they are trying to get into foster, male and female. Not sure if they are on Petfinder. Owner bought two, two to many to train properly and is now re-homing them w/SPCA. I think they are about 5 mos. I get the foster bulletins and they were looking for foster homes for them-and to separate them. This SPCA does charge more than most rescues, though. http://www.spcaswmich.org/AdoptableDogs.html
I just looked at the site and they are not listed yet. You could contact them to see about adopting one.


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: onyx'girlThe breeder should refund your deposit. She knows this dog is going to be hard to place unless she spends some time socializing and training it. I cannot believe she would charge so much for this particular dog. Maybe give her the link to this site and let her read the opinions that are all in agreement?
> In my town(Kalamazoo), there is an SPCA and there are two GSD pups that they are trying to get into foster, male and female. Not sure if they are on Petfinder. Owner bought two, two to many to train properly and is now re-homing them w/SPCA. I think they are about 5 mos. I get the foster bulletins and they were looking for foster homes for them-and to separate them. This SPCA does charge more than most rescues, though. http://www.spcaswmich.org/AdoptableDogs.html
> I just looked at the site and they are not listed yet. You could contact them to see about adopting one.


Awesome, I will check the site out and give them a call. I am still waiting on a response from Marshal about the GSD in Bay City who needs a home. Maybe I can sway his decision! 

Ok, yep. I see a large dog would be around $780 dollars to adopt. I am guessing they would consider a GSD pup to be large eventually and most likely would ask this price.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

No not $780. They charge around 250-400 for purebreds. Some that have been there awhile or are seniors go for $200ish. This includes vetting, microchipping and spay/neuter.


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: onyx'girlNo not $780. They charge around 250-400 for purebreds. Some that have been there awhile or are seniors go for $200ish. This includes vetting, microchipping and spay/neuter.


Even better! 

I think this may be our best way to go. As much as I'd love to give that other pup a home it is killllling me inside knowing how much work she will be. 

I need to get this resolved this week so I don't lose my head. 

I will give that place a call in a moment just to see if they have those two GSD's.


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

Happy news!

I cancelled my deposit with the breeder. Marshal and I will be going to check out the pup in Bay City, Michigan at the adoption center.


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## ArmyGSD (Apr 27, 2009)

Congratulations and I guess the question everyone will want to know is did she refund your deposit? I'm sorry that you had your heart set on such a hard pressed dog. I know that you two will be happier with a dog that is either A older or B younger and trainable. I hope that your search yields great things.

I'll be checkin in.


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

I found out something through someone on this forum. Her brother went there as well and apparently she was still breeding an 11 year old dog? Is that really bad? I am not too familiar.

That just upset me. I talked with a trainer from the local humane society and she told me as well that she would be concerned with us getting that puppy.

And mostly, I took everyones advice here and ran with it. I was genuinely upset and stressing about our situation. 

Also, we never signed anything stating we were getting the dog, she just told us to send a deposit via check. She never told me if it was refundable or not. So, I went to the bank today and cancelled my check. 

We will be calling her today. I hope she was going to refund it, she never cashed it or not sure if she received it yet. 

No dog, no signed contract. It wasn't set in stone.

I will update once again when we find out more about the foster pup.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

I still would send her a 5 or 10 dollar bill, only for the fact that banks charge for returned deposits. so you cancel it, she has to pay for you changing your mind. I agree you should not take the puppy, but I would still call her and let her know that you did cancel it and the least you can do is send her cash for the bounced deposit.

examples:

http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/chk/20050706b1.asp


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## AniasGSDs (Oct 18, 2004)

Sounds to me like you did the right thing!!!!


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

Thanks Angela. 

Will do.


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

Maybe she has not deposited it yet?


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

I'd much rather be out the 15 or so to stop payment and her returned deposit fee than to lose all of it! 

Let us know how it goes on the other dog!


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

When I went into the bank to cancel the check the teller did not state that the check had been deposited. When Marshal calls her today we will find out and offer to send her the small fee. I hope she isn't too upset about me cancelling the check.









I sent in our application to the adoption place and we will hopefully visit this pup soon! Wish us luck and I will post soon as we find out more.


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## ArmyGSD (Apr 27, 2009)

All the luck in the world to ya. I know that if she hasn't deposited it yet, then there is really nothing to worry about. If she is still breeding an 11 yo dog there are issues. Chances are that she is trying to push a name or lineage, and thus she is getting sub par puppies now due to her age...(I may be wrong not sure). But Congrats to you on your decision I am sure that Marshal will be enthralled with whatever dog he gets.


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

I just feel relieved. I hate feeling pressured into something that myself am not 100% sure on. Marshal just wanted a dog with a good bloodline/background. I know with a foster pure bred GSD we wont get that. But, after he sees her pictures and meets her I am sure he will forget all about that.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

That's a common misconception but actually you might - there are LOTS of dogs in foster/rescue from great bloodlines. Dogs get given up for all kinds of reasons many of which have nothing to do with the dogs themselves. Some dogs even come with full pedigrees. Others have tattoos and/or are clearly well-bred but you aren't able to trace them. It all depends. I hope something works out and you guys get the dog of your dreams from one source or another! Nice to see someone coming in with an open mind and ready to learn.







Welcome to GSDs!


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## ArmyGSD (Apr 27, 2009)

Bloodline isn't everything remember that.

Far too often do unfit dogs come from a good bloodline. It's not the line that matters it's the owner.


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## AniasGSDs (Oct 18, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: MP's GSDBloodline isn't everything remember that.


How true........

And some times the *BEST DOGS COME FROM RESCUE!!!!!!!*

<span style="color: #FF0000">*My HEART & SOUL DOG GRETCHEN is a rescue!!!!!!*</span>

I almost lost her a week and a half ago and just the thought of it made me so sick I ended up in the emergency room.... (we're both ok now!!!!!!)


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

> Originally Posted By: SchotziI just feel relieved. I hate feeling pressured into something that myself am not 100% sure on. Marshal just wanted a dog with a good bloodline/background. I know with a foster pure bred GSD we wont get that. But, after he sees her pictures and meets her I am sure he will forget all about that.


You don't need papers to have a GREAT dog. Take it from me, I rescued my Sam when he was 14 months old. He is the best dog I've ever had. Has awesome temperament and nerves, nothing faces him. I can take him anywhere with me. He loves people and is fine with other dogs, totally ignores them. He became my Agility dog and has done GREAT! And you know what? I paid $150 for him.









Just take your time and make sure you choose the right one. Patience pays off.


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

I agree with you all!









Plus, I am paying for half of this pup. I have a say too! lol. Marshal is being understanding about my concern with that other pup. I just feel like 100 pounds has been lifted off my shoulders. I was really worked up about the whole situation. I know too that being stressed is not good for a growing baby inside! 

I just have to tell Marshal that this dog he wanted I feel may have not turned out like he wished. He wants a dog he can take to job sites and car rides, etc. etc. 

WE will find the perfect GSD pup; you wait! (Hopefully the one I found on this site)


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

hmnn.. ..... brooke maybe?


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

Good luck and let us know how it work out.


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

Angela,

Not sure if Brooke is the one that posted this. Still waiting on a response. I sent an online application to them as well. This is the link of the pup (she doesn't look like a pup, lol) 7 months old apparently. I think she is stunning!

http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=13609506


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

There is a sable female listed on this site named brooke and she's in MI, lol.

Both are cute, i'm just partial to sables


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

It says APPLICATION PENDING on her description, make sure she is not already spoken for before you drive there.


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

lol, oh! I thought maybe you meant a handler or breeder.









I am not too familiar with Sables. Do they usually not have a black saddle? We were looking for a tan and black saddle GSD.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

no, not saddled

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1065249#Post1065249


here's a bl/tan male, under 6 months due to be pts today.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1065236#Post1065236


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: GSDBESTK9It says APPLICATION PENDING on her description, make sure she is not already spoken for before you drive there.


That could be my application I did online couple hours ago.







I hope!


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

Let's hope so. If not, I think this other one would be PEFECT for you, says she LOVES other dogs and kids. However, it is a Sable









http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=13654432


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Angela_Wno, not saddled
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1065249#Post1065249
> 
> ...


She is lovely too! The only thing that gave me a red light is she is not good with other dogs. We will be taking our dog over to Marshals parents to run a lot. They own a Springer Spaniel.


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: GSDBESTK9Let's hope so. If not, I think this other one would be PEFECT for you, says she LOVES other dogs and kids. However, it is a Sable
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I gush over any dog. lol. I wouldn't mind a sable. I just honestly think Marshal has his heart set on that "cop" looking dog that you see in movies. I know, I know...








Tan/Black saddle.


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

Those are that, movies. If you go to any police department with German Shepherds, you will find most of them, if not all of them, are Sables (working lines).







Black and Reds and most Black and Tans are Show lines.


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: GSDBESTK9
> 
> 
> 
> ...


lol.









Goes to show how much I know about GSD's!


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

nevermind, Carolina beat me to it!

quite a few on here









http://www.policek9.com/html/lake_county_2003.html


http://www.policek9.com/html/florida_swat_2004.html


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

Thanks for the pictures! Wow, I have learned a lot from this forum so far.







lol. 

I will show-off and tell him that sables are the working dogs aka police dogs. Tehehe.


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

Wait, I get it. Movies want to use the "show" dogs because they are what everyone typically thinks is a German Shepherd. Tan/Black.

Mhmmm I am on to them! 

I really didnt realize either the different types of GSD's.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

People think of the old rin-tin-tin look as the only type of gsd. They come in sable (grey, black, red, tan), blanket black/tan, bicolor, reg. black/tan (black/red), black, white, blue and liver.


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

Wow. I have seen pure blacks. Like in your picture. I never met a pure white one yet though.

Neat!


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

Actually, he's a bicolor. His son, Jethro, aka Jet is with Amaruq, a member here on the board. His daughter, Gala, is a bicolor like him.


Jet:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubb...rue#Post1063999

Gala:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubb...rue#Post1023829


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I think you made the right decision. Rafi started going to work with me only a few weeks after I adopted him. He had to lie on the floor quietly during meetings and even once while I taught a class. He was perfect! And he loves kids so much that he starts to wiggle from head to toe at the sight of one!







Plus he's amazing with my 14 yo dog and my 16 yo cat. There are some real gems out there waiting for new homes.


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

Angela:

Gala has some intimidating pictures.









BowWow:

Rafi sounds awesome. That is what I want precisely. A dog that will be a good family dog and able to go around people; adults and kids. I am having a baby so I hope we can find a good fit and it will be able to adjust to it. We want an alert dog but not an aggressive one.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

...the best $37 i've ever spent was on a 10mo old dog-friendly people-friendly cat-friendly child-friendly easy-to-train and might i say, beautiful!!!! boy Tilden.







i'll also add that i was specifically looking for a black and red longhair. i got exactly what i wanted and more. Gia was also all of the above (temperament wise), but $37 bucks creates more shock value, lol.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubb...rue#Post1051361

for people who's heart is not set on an 8wk old puppy from certain lines and for a certain purpose/job/sport/duty - i almost ALWAYS promote rescues!


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Camerafodder...the best $37 i've ever spent was on a 10mo old dog-friendly people-friendly cat-friendly child-friendly easy-to-train and might i say, beautiful!!!! boy Tilden.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Tilden is gorgeous! Thank you for sharing. I loved those pictures of him. =)

Glad you found what you were looking for. Hoping the same for us!


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

I've been keeping up with this thread and I'm sitting here anxiously awaiting news on your adoption application! My fingers are crossed for you and Marshall!!


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

Thanks! I hope I said all the right stuff in the application. Oh boy...

















I have never adopted an animal so I dont know what the qualifications are! eek!


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

usually a home check, fenced yard, basic stuff.


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

We dont have a fenced yard. Though, with this last pup we were gonna have a large kennel out back just for temporary use. For example I was inside taking care of the baby, house work, etc. and the dog needed out. I would never ever everrrr leave the dog in there when we were not home. She is going to be a house dog.









I hope that doesn't hurt our chances!


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

It will depend on the shelter, some require it, some don't.


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

It was a question in the application. My guess it might be required. 

That would be a bummer. I will keep my eyes peeled for some more pups.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: SchotziIt was a question in the application. My guess it might be required.


was it a yes/no question - or did it give you a line to explain special circumstances?


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

It gave me an option to choose fence, no fence. Then yes it let me explain somewhere in the application. I said we would never have her chained up in the yard. I explained a large kennel outside for temporary use and we would be home. Also, explained we would personally take her out on a leash. 

I do not like having animals chained up in a yard watching them get tangled on trees or wrapped around something. They always seem miserable.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Some dogs need fenced in yard, some don't. The rescue I worked with goes by the dogs needs. Chaining is a huge no-no, and the rescues will not allow this. Short periods supervised are ok but not for any length of time. I hope Missy will end up with you, she looks very sweet!


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

Fingers still crossed for you!


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

Thank you! We hope so too. I spoke with Marshal and now we are anxious to hear back from the adoption place. 

What was that site you gave me that had two 5mnth old GSD pups? A female and male. Just in case they dont approve us.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I just called and left a message for the one in charge of getting the pups I posted earlier(back a few pages in this thread) into foster. They are between 5-6 mos. and the owner (I believe) wants to re-home only one, due to them not getting proper attention/training. I'll let you know what I find out.


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: onyx'girlI just called and left a message for the one in charge of getting the pups I posted earlier(back a few pages in this thread) into foster. They are between 5-6 mos. and the owner (I believe) wants to re-home only one, due to them not getting proper attention/training. I'll let you know what I find out.


Sounds good. Thank you!

Also,

sorry i am full of questions. But, we were told because my fiance is considered the more dominent one in the house hold (Blasphemy!) lol we both came to that conclusion. I am very laid back. Anyways, that we should consider a female GSD. Does this hold true?


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## AniasGSDs (Oct 18, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: Schotzi we were told because my fiance is considered the more dominent one in the house hold (Blasphemy!) lol that we should consider a female GSD. Does this hold true?


I don't think that this has ANYTHING to do with the gender of the dog. Its all up to the individual temperament of the dog. 

I have both a female and a male. I'm the ALPHA of the house, but my female GDS is definitely the alpha over my male. She bosses him around like there is no tomorrow!!!!!

What you HAVE TO REMEMBER that you cannot let the dog, either female or male, become the dominant one OVER YOU!!!!! This can be done with proper training and treatment. 

Also, on the social/relationship level (this comes from my psychology background), you and your fiance have to have an relationship with respect, equal responsibilities, and privileges. If you do not, your dog will pick up of this (and so WILL YOUR BABY) and the dog will treat you differently (i.e., not respect you as much as your fiance; not listen to you, etc...) Just my two cents......


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

Thanks for the info. We were not sure. Marshal originally wanted a male GSD. The sex doesn't matter to me. As far as the household we pretty much have our own set of chores we do. 

Good to know just in case we cant get this female. We will start looking for a pup male and female.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

My experience, (which seems common, but is NOT always the case), in a household with both a male and female person, a dog will gravitate to the human of the opposite sex. We are on our 4th female dog, and even though I do all the training and either half or all the feeding, Halo, like every other female we've ever had, is a Daddy's girl. Keefer is the only male dog we've had since we've been together (Tom has had male dogs growing up), he is very much MY dog. Halo loves me, but lives for him. Keefer adores his Daddy, but he's glued to me.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

My two girls take to me, as I am the one doing the training, exercising and feeding. Stomper and Clover were also "my dogs". I hope Karlo does the same! They are all fine w/DH but don't listen to him as well-he also uses words they don't understand, ~"quit it onyx!" and others...


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I have heard that too although in our house it hasn't been the case. Grace loves us all but is clearly "my" dog. Leo thinks the sun rises and sets on our son. My last two female dogs were also "my" dogs although I will admit that our Rottie was a TOTAL mama's boy. 

So... your mileage may vary!







In general I've found male GSDs to be a little more easy going and straightforward than the females, for whatever that's worth.


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomMy experience, (which seems common, but is NOT always the case), in a household with both a male and female person, a dog will gravitate to the human of the opposite sex. We are on our 4th female dog, and even though I do all the training and either half or all the feeding, Halo, like every other female we've ever had, is a Daddy's girl. Keefer is the only male dog we've had since we've been together (Tom has had male dogs growing up), he is very much MY dog. Halo loves me, but lives for him. Keefer adores his Daddy, but he's glued to me.


Thats really interesting. Hm, well since this is Marshals dream dog I suppose we should stick to a female with the chance she will be he his shadow.









Thanks!


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

lol, whew. Ok, I just ready the other posts. Now I really don't know. I guess it doesn't matter. I think we should just stick to the plan of a female to make it easier on a decision.


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## AniasGSDs (Oct 18, 2004)

I also should comment then...... ;-)

My female loves me and is devoted to me. BUT she went crazy with affection (kissy and lovie) for the last two boyfriends I had since I had her. So, if you don't mind NOT getting all the affection from a female dog, then get a female, but you might feel a little left out! I did!!!! ;-)


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

lol! I might feel left out. But remember I will have my little baby boy in August!


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Aniadouble So, if you don't mind NOT getting all the affection from a female dog, then get a female, but you might feel a little left out! I did!!!! ;-)


 I did too! That's why we got Anton who is my canine soulmate


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## ArmyGSD (Apr 27, 2009)

I don't think I will ever have a problem with Zeus. I have a very inclined feeling that he will be the Alpha over my wife (which I knida prefer) and will be my loyal companion. I believe that if he is alpha over my family while I am away then we will have their best interest at heart. But I will do my best to be his best buddy. So any word on that app yet?


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## AniasGSDs (Oct 18, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: MP's GSDI don't think I will ever have a problem with Zeus. I have a very inclined feeling that he will be the Alpha over my wife (which I knida prefer) and will be my loyal companion. I believe that if he is alpha over my family while I am away then we will have their best interest at heart. But I will do my best to be his best buddy.


I'm not an expert, but I have a <u>problem</u> with that. 

*A dog should NEVER be an alpha over a human!!!!! *A dog's place is to be a lower ranking member of the human pack. A well trained, well socialized dog will have the instinct to protect his pack no matter what his position is. 

Allowing the dog to be an alpha over a human, especially a woman, <u>could lead to big problems</u>. 

Please reconsider your decision. There is a lot of great information here on this sight that can help you figure this out.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Zeus should not be Alpha over humans ever. He should look up to your wife and family, and they should protect him, not the other way around. If he sees your wife or children as below him when he becomes a mature adult, he may challenge them and the outcome wouldn't be good.


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

Nope no news yet. 

I have been looking and looking and looking all over the net for german shepherds in Michigan. I am having a real hard time.

We would prefer a young GSD that is past a lot of the puppy stages. But, now I will get desperate enough to take a pup! 

Marshal and I really wanted to get our dog before the baby comes. 

I found this younger pup online. Located in Michigan, about 45 minutes away. It was posted April 21st. Chances she is no longer available.

http://www.domesticsale.com/Classifieds/308446.html


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

Don't get desperate!! That's when you'll make a BIG mistake and end up with the wrong dog. Have patience, patience pays off!


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## ArmyGSD (Apr 27, 2009)

He is still a puppy, so I doubt that he will take an alpha role while I am here. Hopefully she is willing to keep training him while I am away, that is if I leave. If not he will MOST LIKELY take over the alpha role. But things as of now stand, Myself, My wife, Zeus (becasue my son is too young to make his own place in line) and then my son (16 MO) But I will do some searching and find the propper place to continue this. (Sorry for the HIJACK Schotzi).

Go for it on that puppy Schotzi. She looks beautiful. I'd check the linage of her parents before buying for a HD scoring.


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

Sigh. 










Patience...what is that? Haha.


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

How dare you hijack my post!??!









Please explain HD scoring. I know she states both parents will be on the site. I will call to see if this pup is even available still.

The lighting in the picture is drab. Though, she is listed as black and tan. I see bits of the parents around her. Looks like the coloring we want. I know the pups lighten up a bit.


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## ArmyGSD (Apr 27, 2009)

Hip Dispalcia Scoring, it is a rating that is placed on the hips and elbows of GSD's and other large breed dogs. This allows breaders to have a better understanding of their dog's joints for future litters. This also helps to "limit" the amount of GSDs with bad hips and such.


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## ArmyGSD (Apr 27, 2009)

and since they are AKC certified they should have a rating for them.


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

Ty!

I found some more near us in Michigan:

http://www.terrificpets.com/dogs_for_sale/viewad.asp?adid=94070

She looks adorable.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: MP's GSD..becasue my son is too young to make his own place in line) and then my son (16 MO)


 Then you need to make a place for your son yourself and start now when your dog is a puppy. Personally I wouldn't want to set my child up for a correction bite down the road... 

I say nothing about your wife because I believe it's her choice to assert herself. She's an adult and if she would be comfortable to be dominated by her own dog then that would be her choice.

Schotzi, please don't rush with getting a puppy and keep doing your research! For me hips are not everything, and I would prefer a dog with bad hips to a dog with bad temperament. Good luck!


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

Researching since I woke up, lol. 

Or puppy searching I should say. Only way to tell if a pup will have good temperament is by looking at the parents right?


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

'The parents were bred for their wonderful temperament & high intelligence!' - sounds like BYB

'The sire will have his hips tested and certified this fall, and has strong drive and focus' - So the sire is probably not even two years old..


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

That is why I come to you all for help. I would not have a clue.


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## ArmyGSD (Apr 27, 2009)

I'd call on them immediately, They are already starting training, and they seem to be taking to it very well. Don't be afraid to ask around. The mother already has a good OFA (HD) score, and the father should of already had his, unless he is less than 24 months. But keep looking, I'm sure you will find the one that just screams your name.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: MP's GSDand since they are AKC certified they should have a rating for them.


AKC only requires that the dogs be akc registered. AKC has NOTHING to do with OFA's and ratings.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: MP's GSDThe mother already has a good OFA (HD) score, and the father should of already had his, unless he is less than 24 months.



If the father is less than 24 months, he shouldn't have been bred, Period. Much less without OFA's, so I would still pass on this one. 

AND you can verify any dog's ofa ratings at http://www.offa.org and search for the dogs name.


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

Does this pup look pure GSD? She is up for adoption but it says mother is pure GSD and they are not sure of the father. 
http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=13500322


I will call around and ask questions. I know I do not want to get a bad pup. Reason why I backed out of the last one.

Sorry they say the mother "looks pure bred" lol. I will just pass on that.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

kinda hard to say because of the ears. could be down because of not being pure, could be heavy, or could have fallen due to teething.

I would more likely say no because of all the dark brown where if it were a gsd it should be black.


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## ArmyGSD (Apr 27, 2009)

Angela that is why you are the best, and I am still just a padawan. I will continue to observe and learn, maybe now I should just shut my mouth and stop posting.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

nah, but thanks! There's ton's here to pick up on the board









You guys will be pro's by the time schotzi finds her pup!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I know of a great breeder in Marshall: Alta-Tollhaus and she does have a litter now. http://24kgsd.com/
This is German Showlines and they are beautiful, great temperaments. Not sure if the litter is all reserved but worth checking out. The pic on her homepage is of her dogs. She is a photog for the GSDCA-WDA and this was the on the cover last year.


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

lol. No kidding.


Ok, one more then I am done searching for today:

http://www.adpost.com/us/pets/37464/

Now, If I was doing this alone. This ad would have sold me right away.


Thanks Onyx I will check it out.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

do you know what the website is? i didn't see it in the ad.


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

Angela:

I was just thinking the same thing...

I found her add on another puppy finder site. It wants me to "upgrade" and pay money for a subscription to view her contact info.


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

I am going to call a couple different people. What are the main questions I need to ask. I would like to be prepared. 

Then I need to get this burning hot laptop off my lap.


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Schotzilol. No kidding.
> 
> 
> Ok, one more then I am done searching for today:
> ...


Not sure if these pups are still around if they were whelped on Sept. 07.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

i googled and yahoo'd her, nothing. 

I did find her name/phone number but no website for dogs.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Look at this link, it will help you a lot in choosing a breeder!
http://www.wildhauskennels.com/breeder.htm
Then you can look over the site, this is a great breeder, though I don't think they have any available pups now.


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

Maybe it's a scam to get people to sign up for a subscription on a site? 

Weird.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

probably just an outdated ad that was free and it's never removed unless the person who placed it removes it.


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: aubie
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Schotzilol. No kidding.
> ...










Mmmm... hahaha. Oops? It was a new posting though. 

How misleading. 

:sob:


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

I called the lady that Onyx referred me too:

She sounded apprehensive about selling me a puppy because I am expecting a baby in August. 

So she gave me a number to a woman way out in Massachusetts... for a 14 month old GSD.

I am done for now. Thanks for the help again!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I think it is because of the lines she breeds -Kirchental, that she referred you to a breeder of the same lines. Karen Priest?
http://www.petfinder.com/classifieds/sea...shepherd&type=P
This dog Bosco is beautiful on Petfinder classifieds!!! Not sure if you are looking at petfinder ads but there are many GSD's listed.


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

Yea it was Karen Priest. We would like to keep it in Michigan though just for convenience.

This pup is cute but seems to have leg problems.

http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=13480667


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

Just stopping by for an update... glad to see the board has steered you away from some potentially bad matches! But, of course, sad to see that you haven't found the pup for you yet.

I'll keep checking back! Thanks for keeping us so well updated.


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

I called the adoption place i sent an application through. It seems they never pick up there phone...

Also, nevermind about the pup above. Says no children under 7 years of age. I will be having a baby so...

Unless that is temporary.

I am off to work. I will check back in since I have a desk job.


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

The pup that had the fracture leg. I was thinking they probably didn't want to place her with small children because of that reason. She has character to her face. 

Arthritis in the long run doesn't sound pleasant though.


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

I called this lady. Her litter is ready to leave to homes June 5th. 

http://www.hoobly.com/0/0/852697.html

What do you think these pups would look like older?


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

Both parents are oversized. None of the links she gave is for the parents themselves, not even full names of the parents. no info regarding OFA status. Ch lines, sounds like just a generic american line pet bred to a german/czech working line pet. Purina puppy food??!!! wow.

Next.


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

lol.

What would I do without you.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

I'm sorry but basics should be health testing, over 2 yrs of age, decent quality food, health checks, records. That's the min.


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

Next:

http://www.hoobly.com/0/0/851067.html


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

Um, white shepherd 800 due to shots and training and being fully house trained. sable pup 9 wks old 800 due to shots and training. Can't have alot of training done at 9wks! 

Assume sire is CEASER VON HAUNSEN, not on ofa's site, not on pedigree database 

Inga no ofa's, nanette no ofa's.


OH, and full breeding rights, no breeding rights, blacks and whites more expensive?

you've hit on just about every byb there is.

next.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

^not to mention they've crossed lines, _removing the huge slanted hip, lowering chances for hip dysplasia._
















apples & oranges people! i wonder if they also breed for large ears to lower the chance of deafness









eta: the puppy is also sable. i haven't read the entire thread, but last i saw you were searching for a b/t saddle back.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

I didn't even read that far, lol


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

Why did I hear that red/blue/pure white is a defect GSD?

I think the original breeder we went to said that.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Schotzi,

I don't mean to come across as harsh, but I think you may be best served to slow down and do some research into the breed, it's different bloodlines, and the common characteristics of good breeders and red flags indicating potentialy bad breeders in order to form a clear understanding of the breed and it's types and what things to look for and watch out for in breeders before intensive searching of ad after ad after ad. A good starting place is you're not going to find much in the way of good breeders on Hoobly or Craigslist or in the newspaper and other types of places. 

This is going to be your companion for the next 10-14 years, and rushing into any decision is ill advised. Patience and research now will pay off in the long run by increasing your chances of finding a healthy, well temperamented dog. You owe it to yourself, boyfriend and coming baby to put a lot of thought into this in order to make the decision that will be right for your family.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

white is a masking gene, blue/liver are dilutes. Both are faults.


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

I understand. Just kind of learning along the way.

Though, I did find the cutest stinkin' red sable pup named Tank.










Looks as though the pups father is black&tan. Site shows the parents pedigrees for once.
http://www.desholzesgsd.com/

Well, I think I am just gonna drop it for now and stop searching. Take a break from it all. I'm just a pleaser and really wanted to find the pup for Marshal.

I appreciate everyones concern and help. 

If you ever run across anything message me!


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: GSD07
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Schotzi She was a sweet girl. She was* timid towards us *but she never once snipped, growled or bit. She most likely will need a lot of work, but my fiance said he was up to the task.
> ...


i would never buy a timid dog..a reserved dog that could care less about strangers, yes..a timid dog..NO!! thats just a disaster waiting to happen


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: onyx'girlLook at this link, it will help you a lot in choosing a breeder!
> http://www.wildhauskennels.com/breeder.htm
> Then you can look over the site, this is a great breeder, though I don't think they have any available pups now.


 Just bumping this post as I think you missed it when the page turned. Please take some time in reading it, Schotzie, its very helpful for potential GSD owners.


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## gsdlove212 (Feb 3, 2006)

I whole heartedly agree with Jane on the above link. And not only does Chris's site give a great deal of insight in what to look for in a potential breeder for your pup, but there is also an article on lines and types of GSDs that I think would help you narrow down what is it exactly you want.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The link des Holzes is another pass, IMO. available for pickup
at 6 1/2 weeks is a red flag. And why on earth would they identify the pups with tail painting? This will encourage them to chase their tails.


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## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

> Quote:http://www.petfinder.com/classifieds/sea...shepherd&type=P
> This dog Bosco is beautiful on Petfinder classifieds!!!


Schotzi, out of all the dogs/links posted here, Bosco sounds like the best match: he's over a year, he's great with kids, & best of all, he's a coatie


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## GSDinOly (Apr 19, 2009)

Hi! I just wanted to tell you that I had a terrible time finding a puppy I'd finally settle on...and honestly, it took me over a year to find her. (Not to depress you!! Everyone here gives such good advice, had I known of this board, it might not have taken so long). I found several different situations were I live. Some kennels were very expensive, yet I got warnings from others not to buy from them for various reasons, some were byb's that didn't have any history on the dogs they owned, some were over 3 yrs of age and did not have OFA scores, I tried rescue for adult GSD, that did not work out either, and good candidates were in other states....needless to say I feel for you! It is very hard, just take your time and you'll get the perfect dog for you. I finally settled on a breeder who is new in my state, and I based it off of a hundred things it seems like. I did TONS of research into her dogs, I even called past breeders in the pedigree to ask questions about health, temperment, and accomplishments.....(yes they thought I was crazy)to me a good breeder will tell you or SHOW you the pedigree and let you ask tons of questions too. It also might help to really narrow down what type of dog you'd like to have in regards to showing? Sport? Just all around good family dog? I hope this doesn't make you sad, but taking your time and asking around, and calling, etc will help you determine the good from the bad, some newer breeders really do know thier stuff, others just don't have a clue and I wish you luck!! I know the perfect one will come along to you


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## JillyBean08 (May 4, 2009)

Thank you. I am actually now reading more on the GSD's and different types. We orginally liked the black&tan with the black saddle. We still do. But, we are now really taking a liking for the dark sables.









We have talked to different breeders and I am actually emailing back and forth with one from Michigan just asking different types of questions about the GSD even though she has no available pups or dogs for us. 

I have learned a lot since coming to this forum and it's fun sharing it with my fiance. He thinks I am a smarty pants now, haha.


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## summer (Jan 19, 2009)

We have the best, most loveable GSD and she is pure white so color doesnt make the dog! Find a good breeder and pick the pup that has the best temperament and I promise when you get her home she could be purple and it wouldnt matter to you because you will have fallen in love!


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