# Punishment in Training



## PMRonan (Mar 29, 2014)

While i personally perfer and use positive reinforcement training, I am tired of hearing that punishment train is ineffective. It isn't. It was used for more that a couple hundred years and is still used today. Just because you don't like it, and would not dream of putting your own dog into that situation doesn't mean it isn't an effective way to teach a dog. MOST older videos or pictures of dog that are doing some pretty amazing things were trained with punishment more than reward. 

That is just how it was. Just because the new positive reinforcement craze also happens to be an easier and, in a lot of cases, faster way to train, doesn't mean that it is "the way to train" Just like I do not prefer treat training, I prefer physical affection. 

Some people think their treat training is better, however, I get my results from affection faster because I enjoy doing it more that creating a treat driven animal. Now, I understand, a lot of people treat train and phase the treats out, it works very well for them. I just don't really get into it. 

I have treats for my dogs, I throw them out at random for a random command being followed. I just am tired of people acting like the last 1000 years didn't happen. They did. Dogs learned quickly what to do to avoid punishment. 

My grandmother bred and trained Irish Setters, with a rolled up magazine and ground meat. Now? She spoils her yorkie rotten and walks him 4 times a day, methods have changed. But, don't act like it wasn't effective.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Gary Wilkes' Real Clicker Training | Adherence to a flawed ideology resembles nothing so much as abject stupidity…GW

I'll just leave this here.

Positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement are great for training dog stuff you want your dog to do. Sit down stands etc. When most clients bring a dog in for board and train though 9 times out of 10 it's because there's a behavior they need stopped and they need it stopped fast. No better way to do it than positive punishment.

When it comes right down to it positive punishment is the quadrant that saves dogs lives.


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## PMRonan (Mar 29, 2014)

Baillif said:


> Gary Wilkes' Real Clicker Training | Adherence to a flawed ideology resembles nothing so much as abject stupidity…GW
> 
> I'll just leave this here.
> 
> ...


My Hero Baillif! That is an awesome site. Good reference!


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## PMRonan (Mar 29, 2014)

And sorry for the rant. I was at the pet store yesterday buying food, and I've seen it a couple times on here, when these two people were standing around talking cash **** about a guy that uses SOME punishment. The words "Just not effective" kept being used and i went home and stewed over it and woke up this morning even more angry at the ignorance that an animal that does everything through body language and tactile response wouldn't understand punishment.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Improperly used or inconsistently used they're right. Not that effective, but if you punish consistently and fairly it's super effective especially when you make sure to remove opportunities for the dog to reinforce itself on the behavior again.

It's one of those things though. Once you decide to open that door you should stick with it till the undesired behavior is done. Otherwise you're no better than the drunk dad that comes home every once in a while and beats his kids.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Here's a neat article:
How Technology from 30 Years Ago is Helping Military Dogs Perform Better Now | Animal Behavior and Medicine Blog | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS

They do use aversives - but less than 1/1000th of a time. 

Strangely (never thought it was strange until I read how many dogs my kind of methods have killed apparently) I have/had dogs who would be dead and have not used positive punishment with them in terms of any aversives stronger than a verbal, or as in the article above if they put themselves or someone else at risk (rare and usually just dog to dog posturing that needs to be body bumped - something that happens when you live with more than 2 dogs integrated as a pack). So it can be done, easily and naturally. I come from a background of working with people/kids, so using strong aversives is not an option, and it is second nature for me to pick behavioral interventions that are clear and that work. I know it works, I have a pack of dogs and former foster dogs that show it. 

If people want to train dogs their way, that's their business, just getting tired of reading all over the place on this board that the way that many of the rest of train, is wrong, dangerous, and doesn't work.


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## PMRonan (Mar 29, 2014)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Here's a neat article:
> How Technology from 30 Years Ago is Helping Military Dogs Perform Better Now | Animal Behavior and Medicine Blog | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS
> 
> They do use aversives - but less than 1/1000th of a time.
> ...



Exactly! No one here trains dogs exactly like someone else. I just don't get why people are so brazen about voicing their unsolicited and unwanted opinions on other people's training?

Just like I personally would not want to send my dog off to a trainer to come back trained. But that is how one of my neighbors makes his living. I like his style of training. it works great. But i don't want to send my dog to him, however, the people that do are doing so because it lines up with their value map to have a professional train their dog so they don't accidentally train them incorrectly.

Some people just can't let others be different.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

I think positive reinforcement is great for teaching a new command, shaping behaviours, for puppies etc but it has to be balanced. At some point, when the dog knows better and chooses to ignore you, you need to correct it (I don't like using the word punish, training shouldn't be about punishing, but it's all semantics, I suppose). 

Leerburg | The Problem with All-Positive Dog Training


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Foster dogs and rescues are usually screened. The dogs that needed it were already given the needle or are labelled unadoptable and slated for it. 

Body blocks raised voices and all that jazz are positive punishment enough for a lot of dogs. Then there are the dogs out there that don't give a crap. When all the force free stuff doesn't work they start wondering if the dog needs to be heavily medicated. Then you hear oh the dog isn't wired right put it down.

Done right positive punishment doesn't need to be applied that often. I don't punish my dog all day. It happens very rarely which is a wonder considering what gets asked of him.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

When you train there should be a goal in sight that you're working towards, so every action counts. Good things get immediate rewards and bad things get immediate corrections (mine mostly is a simple calm verbal "ah!" to let them know to stop and try again). 

It's a lot easier on both trainer and dog if you have a marker. Think about it this way, we're limited in communication so here's a basic rule - do this and you get a positive and do that and you get a negative. Just like the game 'hot and cold' and the more clues (markers) you give to show the right way the easier and faster the reward comes! The jackpot (correct behaviour) at the end is the reward for both parties

When people use the term punishment I think most jump immediately to physical corrections and pain. Thoughts of a screaming human beating the crap out of the dog because it disobeyed the sit command, for 95% of trainers that assumption is completely false


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Right. When I use the term punishment isn't the typical loaded use of the word in the sense of something necessarily super harsh. It's in the scientific use of the word punishment which is by definition any stimulus which when applied following an action decreases the probability of future appearance of that action.

That might be a brow furrow it might be a ah ah it might be a nope or it could be a time out or maybe something considerably stronger than that. If it's doing the job of weakening a behavior it is punishment.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Yeah, I think the word 'punish' brings a lot of negative associations with it for a lot of people. They assume it means hitting or roughly handling the animal, which is of course, not true for the most part. 

Like I said, it's all semantics really. 

I also wonder if positive only training would possibly create some stress for the dog. I think sometimes telling them 'no, that's not right' makes things more black and white for them, rather than leave them searching for the right answer.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Sticking my hand in too many training discussions lately, so here goes another one.

If you’re used to training GSDs and mainly WL GSD or anything with some sort of resilience and hardness, it’s interesting when you start working other breeds. It’s almost scary. A “correction” that I think is light for my GSD, can shut down some other dog/breed like you’ve never seen. That’s what most people don’t like to see.

So…if you start with compulsion, it will work, but it can have the ability to work by shutting the dog completely down, making it “obedient” but turning off everything about it that makes it a dog. The dog ends up not wanting to make any kind of decision due to fear of a correction. But…if you start a dog on PO, you tend to get a happier dog, and then if you realize you need a correction, you have a way of testing it or hopefully by that point you understand the dog more and know if the dog can handle that or not.

I see way too many people starting off with crank and yank because its worked for decades…and they’ve seen results but their results aren’t impressive.

Sorry…I’m coming from the AKC world and entering the IPO world so the type of obedience I see is different. And on top of that, when I compare what I see many people consider “obedient pets” it’s very disheartening sometimes.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Totally agree with you, but

If done properly and tactfully, even with skitish super soft dogs, it is possible to use nothing but "compulsion" training and come out on the other side with a very happy peppy sporty looking dog. We are talking no food no toys no play just emotions and compulsion. Escaping pressure is in itself a reward.

But it is as much of an art form as the extremely good force free trainers. You don't just jump into it willy nilly after reading something on the internet.

Have I done it? Yes. Do I typically do it? No. I prefer to sweeten the deal with food or play.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Terminology always messes me up but these are a couple of articles that seem relevant to me on the topic. 

The Jerry Bradshaw article was published in Police K9 Magazine and is a pdf document:

http://www.tarheelcanine.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Jerry-BradshawV4I2.pdf

And Deb Palmon, also a PDF on the USPCA Site:

http://uspcak9.com/training/negative_punishment.pdf


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## PMRonan (Mar 29, 2014)

I had a dog that wouldn't sit for treat. Not for anything. a tennis ball though? Oh yeah. He didn't want to run after it, he didn't want to chew it. He was wanted to hold it in his mouth for a second. So our training was I would give him the ball, then a series of commands. If he failed the commands i would withdraw the ball hold it for a few minutes and then return it and start over. This is actually punishment training. For him, the most effective training. No beating, no strangling, no screaming. Ball goes away, ball comes back. However I am learning that Jager, my GSD puppy, Is HIGHLY food motivated and have had to cope with that.


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