# Legal Precedent set in Denver?



## tuco (Sep 14, 2009)

I had posted this as "Crazy things going on in Denver", and
the thread was closed off.
Was told this had already been posted. I could not find
where it had been posted.

This may be important as "Dexter", the dog in question IS
most definitely an APBT. Dexter's owner had experts who
testified he was not a Pit. "Dexter" and his owner won!!

Now that this has been ruled so, any dog who looks like "Dexter",
should be allowed to reside in Denver.
You can view the vid and see what you think.
http://www.kdvr.com/news/kdvr-pitbull-100909,0,5301116.story


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1221394&page=1#Post1221394

The link comes up find for me. Val probably thought it was the same thing as the story references the above thread. All you had to do was notify her.


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## tuco (Sep 14, 2009)

The story is about Dexter and a ruling that came down Oct. 9th.
It's no big deal that it was locked, but anyone who bothered to
read a few words from the article would know it had nothing to do
with leaked photos of dead APBT's.

I PM'd the person and did not get a response. 
Perhaps Val is busy. Next time I will check with you first!!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

You don't have to be a jerk.


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## tuco (Sep 14, 2009)

A Jerk? I was just trying to follow correct protocol.
Does this mean we aren't close any longer? This sucks,
as I was planning on going to your daughter's wrestling matches.:-(


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## Crabtree (Jan 6, 2006)




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## Steffanie (Oct 1, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: tucoThis may be important as "Dexter", the dog in question IS
> most definitely an APBT. Dexter's owner had experts who
> testified he was not a Pit. "Dexter" and his owner won!!


How is that dog most definitely a pit? If any, the amount of pit in that dog is small, the only remotely pitty thing I see about it is a thick head and there are several breeds that can produce that, especially in combo. There's no way that dog is more than half pit.
I'd say Boxer x Cattle Dog long before I'd say pit. 

Makes it even more sad that their 'experts" were going to put it down as a pit when it clearly is not one. How many families have lost their pets because these "experts" don't know what they're talking about?


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## tuco (Sep 14, 2009)

lol Dexter is a Pit Bull aka APBT aka Yankee Terrier etc.
I am beyond thrilled that the people who claimed Dexter
was a Pit were overturned,(even though they were correct)
but Dexter is not a mix. Dexter is a Pit.
Now all one has to do, is compare their dog to Dexter
and by legal Precedent the Pit should be in the clear.

I imagine the dogs in danger would be the Bully types.
The Bully types really aren't Pits, so it looks like well bred
Pits will be in the clear.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

Legal experts exist to inform the judge (or jury). That's what these folks did. The trier fact (the judge or jury) determines the credibility of the experts, and if they find the expert credible, then they accept the expert's finding.

This is a standard practice that happens all across courtrooms in the USA every single day. 

Experts usually aren't cheap. I give these folks a lot of credit for hiring not one, not two but three to ensure their dog lives. The county used their experts (two AC officers and a vet tech). It appears that the dog owner's experts were more credible. 

There's nothing "crazy" going on in Denver, as far as I can see, as someone who has worked within the court system for a long time. In fact, the system worked perfectly. 

What seems crazy to me is that they had the breed ban in the first place. But that's just my opinion.


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## Steffanie (Oct 1, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: tucolol Dexter is a Pit Bull aka APBT aka Yankee Terrier etc.
> I am beyond thrilled that the people who claimed Dexter
> was a Pit were overturned,(even though they were correct)
> but Dexter is not a mix. Dexter is a Pit.
> ...


I don't understand. What do you see in this dog that says "Pit!" to you? Did you watch the video? From the video I watched, there is no way that dog is a pure APBT, and I really don't think it's even half, could very well have none. That dog looks a heck of a lot different both in the head, structure, and way it carries itself of any pit I've seen.


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## tuco (Sep 14, 2009)

Hey I Love it, but what's crazy to me is when a bonafied Pit Bull
is said by experts to be a mix and allowed to live in Denver City limits.

I walked Pit Bulls down the inner city streets of Denver in the late 50's and 60's, and no one even knew what kind of a dog I was walking. People would ask me, and I would say a lab mix.

In the 70's came the ADBA dog shows and weight pulls and the over breeding and nightmare began. 
The Pits and their owners have been taking it up the wazoo since
the Denver Ban. Now, it seems the flip side of the coin has come up.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

> Quote:
> but Dexter is not a mix. Dexter is a Pit.


Says who? Legal experts can't be picked out of thin air, you know. They're subject to challenge by the other side -- the other side can dispute their qualifications to be experts. Their curricula vitae (which are like resumes, but they list all sorts of other information) are provided to all parties involved for scrutiny.

One lay person saying "Dexter is not a Pit," doesn't mean much to me. I presume you never had an opportunity to do a complete physical exam of Dexter, including any sort of blood work?
'
The experts gave testimony that the court found clear and compelling. Just because you don't like the outcome, doesn't mean it wasn't correct. 

BTW, the "precedent" of which you worry is actually very clear (although I'd argue this case it too low-level to be precedent setting, but anyhow...) The court essentially said: AC better know what kind of dogs they are picking up for euthanizing. My guess is that they ascertained the dog's breed based on a visual exam. A vet tech? Really? I adore the vet techs at my vet's office, and there's lots of things they do really well, but they aren't breed specialists. 

I can think of a lot of people who are better suited to determine the breed of a dog than a vet tech







or AC officers whose job it is to uphold a law. I have nothing against AC officers, but there's rather an inherent bias there. Once they arrest the subject, he's assumed to be guilty. Would you like to live in a system like that?

An independent arbiter would be very helpful in cases where the owner disputes the dog's breed. 

The legal "precedent" is clear -- AC is judge, jury and executioner in this case, but they're not above the law, and their decisions can be appealed. They better get it right.


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## tuco (Sep 14, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Steffanie
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: tucolol Dexter is a Pit Bull aka APBT aka Yankee Terrier etc.
> ...


Steffanie, I don't mean any disrespect, but what experience do you have with Pits?
Do you know who the famous old APBT breeder was who lived in Colorado Springs? Can you tell me who "Alvin the Dog" was and where he was bred?
If you tell me a little more about your expertise regarding APBT's, I might see where you are coming from.
How many Pits have you owned in your lifetime? How many have you actually had hands on experience with?


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## tuco (Sep 14, 2009)

3K9Mom, I Love the outcome. There wasn't an expert in the courtroom lol, and Dex is a Pit.


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## jfisher (Dec 29, 2005)

This story is incredibly disturbing to me. Can you imagine an animal control officer just waltzing up and taking your dog to death row?! If that happened to me, I'd end up in jail because I would fight tooth and nail if they tried to take one of my babies. And being that our breed is the GSD, we have a lot to be concerned about because they are high up on the list...Really scary.

-Jackie


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## jfisher (Dec 29, 2005)

Another disturbing thought just came to mind...What if they start using DNA tests to determine breed? Then the dogs wouldn't even have a chance.

-Jackie


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## tuco (Sep 14, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: GhostwolfAnother disturbing thought just came to mind...What if they start using DNA tests to determine breed? Then the dogs wouldn't even have a chance.
> 
> -Jackie


Check out the DNA test I posted in the Chat Room.
If a DNA test is used, no charge will stand.
A well bred APBT's DNA test showed him to be a
Boston Bull, Bulldog, Golden Retriever, and Irish Setter.


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## Steffanie (Oct 1, 2005)

Do I know the history of pits? No. Do I know about pit breeders? No. Do I know about specific pits? No. Have I ever owned a pit? No.

I am not trying to represent myself as an expert, and if my words sound like anything other than my personal opinion or came off as rude in any way, it was not intended and I apologize.

I do however spend a lot of my time inside the local humane society, working mostly with the dogs. I have seen thousands upon thousands of dogs, probably over half pits or pit mixes. Ranging from purebred APBTs to just large bully breed mixes, or purebred uncommon bully breeds. This dog does not strike me at all as an APBT. It looks much more like a Boxer mix than anything else to me.

As I said, my OPINION is that this dog is not a pit so whether or not you feel I'm 'qualified' to make such a judgement is left to your opinion, if you disagree feel free to ignore what I say. I don't mind if you disagree, I'm not saying I'm right, so take what I say as a pinch of salt.

Why do you say this dog is definitely a pit?


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Hmmm. It does look a little pitty to me, but I've only dealt with a handful of them. There are a lot of dogs that look similar and could be crossed with from what I've seen and I don't think he looks like he is a purebred pit bull.

I'm curious what the legal definition of "predominantly" is under this law. 

And Tuca, I think you're slightly confused as what "legal precedent" usually encompasses. All this hearing officer did was rule on a particular case in which 2 experts were opposing. A legal precedent with this law would be more like a judge specifically ruling what "predominately" means or ruling that this law violates a law already in place, etc. This case isn't much different that a two opposing experts in a jury trial testifying and the jury coming up with XXX verdict because of the opinion of one particular expert.


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## tuco (Sep 14, 2009)

Steffanie, there is certainly no need to apologize for anything.
I am more than familiar with the Colorado Springs Humane Society.
In 93, after the big dog bust, your Humane Society had 2 of the guys working off their community service there, kill dogs and puppies alike by stabbing the pups in the heart with long 12guage needles and injecting what they had.
Of course they missed a bunch of times, but afterall the dogs were Pits.

My Pit Bull Kennel was by far the oldest in the state of Colorado. Est in 1966.
William Lightner, the great old breeder of APBT's was a well known policeman and fireman in Colorado Springs.
If anyone in Pits hasn't heard of Lightner, they aren't even born yet in APBT's. I had the pleasure of knowing Mr. Lightner. I also knew his protege Don Moore. Don was also a former Fire Chief in Colorado Springs. Mr. Lightner got Don hired as a young man.
Don's partner was the well known dogman, Bud Reece. Reece bred the Great "Alvin The Dog". Alvin was bred in Peyton Colo. 20 miles east of Springs.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=9426

I owned Alvin's grt grand sire on his bottom "Royce's SIN SIN".
SIN SIN was bred to his belly sis to get Vermerian's Porra.
Charlie Vermerian of Denver bred his Porra to a Champion AKC Staff
owned by his wife, named CH RUFFIAN SANTANA of HAR WYN.
That breeding produced Molly, who when bred to the Lightner Dog TEMBO produced the ACE "ALVIN"

I have owned hundreds of Pits. I have had hands on experience with thousands. Some that are very famous APBT's in history.
In 1970, I knew every Pit and every owner in the state of Colorado.
When I left Colorado last year, I didn't even know all the Pits
in the tiny rural town nearest my land.
You all believe what you wish.


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## Steffanie (Oct 1, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: tucoSteffanie, there is certainly no need to apologize for anything.
> I am more than familiar with the Colorado Springs Humane Society.
> In 93, after the big dog bust, your Humane Society had 2 of the guys working off their community service there, kill dogs and puppies alike by stabbing the pups in the heart with long 12guage needles and injecting what they had.
> Of course they missed a bunch of times, but afterall the dogs were Pits.


Okay, I was good up until this point, I had respect for you and was not going to argue, just wanted to hear your side.

What was the point in bringing this piece of information up? Something that apparently happened in 1993, at least 15 years ago, which I have never even heard of and is completely irrelevant to the conversation. The shelter I was speaking of is currently a highly rated one, maybe it had problems back then, but those are done now.
This came off as nothing short of extremely rude. Unnecessary.


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## tuco (Sep 14, 2009)

The Colorado Springs Inhumane Society..... HSUS at it's finest.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

What an interesting thread. Tuco how long have you had GSD's?


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## tuco (Sep 14, 2009)

I met my wife 25yrs ago. She was, and is a GSD Nut. She had a solid black Busecker Schloss male. We got married 2 wks after we met. The Black wanted to eat me up. After a few months, he loved me.

Since I understood the importance of a ped from the APBT's, I studied GSD peds and bloodlines. I purchased a Karthago bred bitch as a baby. She was my foundation bitch for a working line I have.
My wife has some highline GSD's as well. In my avatar is my wife's highline male and my working line bitch.


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## dOg (Jan 23, 2006)

well folks, it seems to me, we got a snowball's chance in hades of fighting BSL as long as we can't get along...
HSUS is a money machine bilking every old lady who ever donated a nickel by falling prey one time to some schmaltzy story of some pathetic in need,
and fighting it is not likely going to go well if/when we can't even speak of it without getting all snarky with one another, when we are basically
on the same side of the issue!

Guess we'll just all be outlaws soon, because it doesn't seem likely we are going to be able to stop the juggernaut of idiocy that is BSL.


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## Crabtree (Jan 6, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: dOgwell folks, it seems to me, we got a snowball's chance in hades of fighting BSL as long as we can't get along...
> HSUS is a money machine bilking every old lady who ever donated a nickel by falling prey one time to some schmaltzy story of some pathetic in need,
> and fighting it is not likely going to go well if/when we can't even speak of it without getting all snarky with one another, when we are basically
> on the same side of the issue!
> ...


God help us if your right. I won't give up my dogs without a fight.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

HSUS does not run or support shelters or the dogs in them. They use the money they solicit to lobby congress to make disgusting laws. 

Unfortunately, local shelters often have "Humane Society" in their names. It is unfortunate because people can think of the shelter and give to HSUS thinking that it supports shelters like theirs. 

I have been in shepherds all my life. I have not owned hundreds, but I have owned quite a few. And yet when people post a mix and ask what it is, I often think shepherd in there, and others say Malinois or other types of dogs that I did not see and no shepherd. 
I think it is reasonable to question whether someone is simply waging their opinion on the breed, especially when experts claimed it is not, and the court upheld them. 

So how exactly do you get to be rated an expert witness for what breed something is predominently???


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## tuco (Sep 14, 2009)

Richard Stratton, who authored the 4 most popular books on the APBT, has been used the most in trials involving the APBT.
He is getting up in years now and I doubt he does this anymore.

I would imagine any ADBA Judge could be considered an expert on the APBT. Of course if they are a true dogman or dogwoman, the dog would come first and they would say it is a mix in order to save it.

The problem is, in these big APBT dog busts, the dogs are killed ASAP. When poor old Floyd Boudreaux at 73yrs old was raided by the HSUS, using copters and Homeland Security. His dogs were killed within 24hrs by Laura Maloney of the SPCA.
After 3 yrs of legal process, Boudreaux was Acquitted but his 56 dogs that were the result of 50yrs of his breedings were all dead.

Same goes for the raids on Pat Patrick in Tuscon, Az. last year.
His 110 dogs were Killed days after his arrest. Vids and pics of his kennel were all over the net.
The vids showed beautiful young dogs and pups all run together and getting along fine. I know Pat Patrick very, very well and I guarantee he does not fight dogs.

Patrick was acquitted earlier this year, but his bloodline and a lifetime of work was killed right after his arrest.

Any dogman worth 2 cents would testify that no dog is an APBT. It's the only way to save them.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: tuco...
> Any dogman worth 2 cents would testify that no dog is an APBT. It's the only way to save them.


Are you saying that expert witnesses should lie under oath?


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## tuco (Sep 14, 2009)

I'm saying, that if a so called "Expert Witness" say's a dog is a Pit in the city of Denver, they are giving said dog a Death Sentence.

Now I can only speak for myself, but if the dog is not a vicious manbiter, and is a nice Pit, I would swear to the high heavens that the dog is a Boxer-Catahoula cross.

I can sleep just fine with a lie under oath, if it saves the life of a nice dog and the heartbreak of it's owner.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I cannot condone lying under oath whatever the outcome. I would never approve a judge who would do so. People who own pits should not live in Denver, or they should get their pits out of Denver. So sorry. If my county suddenly bannee shepherds, I would have to find a way to move them or rehome them outside the county. I could never expect another person to lie on the stand for my dogs. 

ETA: this ban has been around for quite a while hasn't it? Why would anyone bring in or breed dogs where they are illegal?


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## tuco (Sep 14, 2009)

lol This reminds me of the "Frasier" episode, where Frasier just can't bring himself to lie in order to help Niles regarding his divorce with Maris. His dad, Martin, wants him to lie, but his ethics just won't let him.

Thousands lie under oath, every day. All I can say is, I am very thankful you have never been, and never will be part of my defense team on any charge I may face.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

A society is only as good as the integrity of its court system. 

ONLY CRIMINALS LIE UNDER OATH. 

And you can go to JAIL for doing so. THEN who takes care of the doggos???


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## Phazewolf (May 16, 2007)

The court system is a JOKE who cares if someone lies under oath there just going to let murders go anyways.


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## tuco (Sep 14, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: selzerA society is only as good as the integrity of its court system.
> 
> ONLY CRIMINALS LIE UNDER OATH.
> 
> And you can go to JAIL for doing so. THEN who takes care of the doggos???


Do you actually believe that??? OMG lolol
Our entire Legal System consists of Black Hearted Liars.
You don't think a Judge will lie to benefit themselve's.
You don't think a DA will lie to get a notch, and benefit their career?
You don't think a Defense Attorney will lie to benefit his cause?
Only criminals lie under oath?

Where do you live? It must be "Fantasy Land".


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## Phazewolf (May 16, 2007)

I would go as far to say the only way the court system works is if you lie. What happens seems to be based mostly on who you know or can pay off to get away with what needs doing. All they really care about is the money in the end not what really happened.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: tuco Only criminals lie under oath?


Technically she's right. Lying under oath is a criminial offense - so yes - only criminals lie under oath.


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## tuco (Sep 14, 2009)

In that case, "Technically" the majority of Judges, Lawyers and Cops are Criminals.








Wait a second. I already knew that!!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Tuco,

While judges and attorneys take an oath to upload the laws of this country and are bound by certain ethics, they are rarely in a position to lie under oath. They do not swear the attourneys/judges when they begin the proceedings. 

I am sorry that you are so very cynical. There are places to be sure where there is corruption. I think that the worst is Holleywood and the fantasy spewed to people left and right over their boob tube. If one goes into the system believing it is a farce, that is extremely depressing. I personally think the system is lengthy, confusing, problematic, and in many cases irritable, but that at least in my area, it is not composed of people who continuously lie under oath. 

I also find the tone of your response offensive.


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## tuco (Sep 14, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: selzerTuco,
> 
> While judges and attorneys take an oath to upload the laws of this country and are bound by certain ethics, they are rarely in a position to lie under oath. They do not swear the attourneys/judges when they begin the proceedings.
> 
> ...


Please believe me, when I say, I am happy that someone can actually live such a sheltered and protected life.

As for my tone, I'm sure you will survive it.


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## tuco (Sep 14, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: selzer
> 
> While judges and attorneys take an oath to upload the laws of this country and are bound by certain ethics, they are rarely in a position to lie under oath. They do not swear the attourneys/judges when they begin the proceedings.


Judges and Attorneys are considered Officers of The Court. As such, they basically remain sworn in.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think they are not in a position to give testimony though.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Chris Rock did a u-tube about how not to get your hind end kicked by the police. You should google it, it is a hoot. 

But one of the first things he says is "OBEY THE LAW." 

It may not be that I am so sheltered, but other than traffic court when I was 19, and jury duty twice (where I was not selected) I have never been inside a courtroom and I am over 40. Perhaps I am not worried about how bad the legal system is because I avoid it like the plague.


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## tuco (Sep 14, 2009)

No, but if you do not have a jury trial, your verdict has probably already been decided over drinks or on the golf course the previous weekend.
If you have a jury trial and are convicted, the sentencing will most likely be set for a later date, but the sentence has probably already been decided.

The legal system is as crooked as a Pretzel.


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

wow...this thread is beyond jacked up....


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

I agree....I guess I missed the point. The dog in the video is a pit, obviously, (maybe mixed...maybe) and yet new "experts" with no disclosed credentials in the video convince a judge he is not, and then discredit people that work with dogs everyday. Two animal control officers and a vet tech, yet we don't know any credentials beyond that, but at least we know that much. The woman in the video did not produce her origins of knowledge the make her more credible at ALL. 
So basically, 3 "experts" aka pitbull sympathizers, help get a pitbull from being PTS in Denver, lie under oath, while the owner knew the city's law and did not abide (no matter how stupid BSL is) is basically brought this upon himself.
Hmm...
How will we get BSL turned around when people are lying like this? Why would people afraid of Pitbulls, bully breeds or GSD trust that our dogs are safe when people are doing things like this? How can they trust any "experts"? 

Just wondering, what are people doing with 56 and 110 dogs? 50 years of breedings....how many dogs have these "breeders" cranked out if they have this many dogs on their property? And is it possible that these people contributed to the current over-populated Pitbull situation?

The only victims are the animals that don't have a choice....so I don't feel bad for the people who choose to ignore laws and lie.


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## tuco (Sep 14, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: MTAussie
> Just wondering, what are people doing with 56 and 110 dogs? 50 years of breedings....how many dogs have these "breeders" cranked out if they have this many dogs on their property? And is it possible that these people contributed to the current over-populated Pitbull situation?


In the case of Boudreaux and Patrick, these men have in no way added to the over population of Pits. Their dogs were very expensive and fairly rare. Don't let the fact that they feed a lot of dogs confuse you.
Your usual wannabe Pit owner and future BYB doesn't know enough to learn about APBT bloodlines and dogs, to even find either one of these men.

Since the mid 70's, this wonderful breed has been so over bred and crossed and mixed. It has grown at a much more dramatic rate than any other breed. In Denver, in 1990, there was a reporter for KCNC, named Wendy Bergen. Wendy did a week long report on fighting Pits. Later, she was arrested and sentenced, as it was found out that she was finding BYB clowns, and paying them to go on camera and fight their dogs. This is the type of garbage this poor breed has had to face. 
http://www.ajr.org/Article.asp?id=1504

With APBT's, the pedigree is more important, than with any other breed. A TRUE Expert can just about tell anything from a dog's pedigree, if it goes back a ways. The media has created a monster. It now feeds upon itself. I remember in the 70's when the media seemed to begin its sensationalism regarding Pitbulls. It was the begininning of people with mental issues, seeking out Pits and Staffs with their own ideas and agendas. The only mentors the vast majority of these new owners (mostly wannabe tough guys and gang bangers) has, is the local newspaper. 
Here a new owner can learn the secret techniques of true dog people. (NOT) 

I remember, in the mid 80's the largest Television Station in Denver showed a Pit at the shelter. This dog looked fine, but had a very thin coat on it's tail. The vertebrate on the tail were visible, and the Know Nothing Expert, (Mr. Eric Sakatch) from the HSUS, said these were notches that were carved in the tail. He went on to explain how dogfighters put a notch in their animal's tail, after they win a fight, much like the old gunfighters did with their pistols lol. 

I knew that after this airs, every punk who sees this, will go out and put notches in their Bulldog's tail. 
I've had these dogs for more than 4 decades, yet only recently have I learned what a "bait dog" is and what its used for. Im sure glad for the media to inform me on all these tips and techniques I seemed to have missed along the way. What is so very sad, is as I type this, there are cruel morons out there actually doing this ridiculous Crap, these misguided creeps print. 

BSL will never be beaten. For every responsible APBT owner, there are a thousand thugs who get a so called Pit and start breeding. They use and try every sick falsehood training method the media prints.


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

Tuco thanks for the reply.
But I am still wondering, how are their dogs rare when they have so many? Being expensive is no guarantee as drug dealers, football players and the like, have plenty of money to spend. 
How many dogs do they sell a year? Are they like good GSD breeders that have contracts, and match the dogs to the potential owners? Do they participate in any activities or compete with their dogs? What are the goals of their breeding programs? 
I am very interested to know more, especially since you know them.
I may be wrong, but the only breeders I know of that have that many dogs on hand are BYBs and Puppy Mills.


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## JayMagic (Oct 13, 2009)

I happen be one of the attorneys who appeared for Dexter in the Denver case. One of the Animal Control "experts" was excused by the hearing officer when he refused to answer how he was employed before becoming a Denver AC officer. He also could not remember examining Dester and was not sure his evaluation was accurate. 

We actually had three experts for Dexter (plus several exhibits for him that included a variety of vet records over the years where the vet had identified Dexter as a Boxer mix or other non-pit mix over the years). Our experts included one of 12 AKC judges approved for judging all breeds, who also has international credentials, a UKC judge (as AKC does not recognize the APBT breed) who judges APBT's at UKC shows, and anther expert who is a long time breeder and trainer (also a vet tech degree), who is a dog behavior expert and legislative liaison who has worked on BSL legislation and studied the various pit bull breeds as part of her work.

All were quite familiar with AKC or UKC breed standard characteristics for the three bit bull breeds banned by Denver. The "experts" for the City were woefully lacking in knowledge about the breeds. It was very clear that Dexter did not meed the standard in the Denver ordinance of meeting the majority to the breed characteristics of one of the three pit bull breeds. 

BTW, I am a GSD owner since 1972 and am active in Schutzhund and a 25+year member of the DVG. I have also competed in AKC events.


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

Uh yikes....I started researching myself and it seems that Floyd Boudreaux fought his pitbulls?!!?
http://www.riospitbull.com/floyd_boudreaux.htm


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: JayMagocI happen be one of the attorneys who appeared for Dexter in the Denver case. One of the Animal Control "experts" was excused by the hearing officer when he refused to answer how he was employed before becoming a Denver AC officer. He also could not remember examining Dester and was not sure his evaluation was accurate.
> 
> We actually had three experts for Dexter (plus several exhibits for him that included a variety of vet records over the years where the vet had identified Dexter as a Boxer mix or other non-pit mix over the years). Our experts included one of 12 AKC judges approved for judging all breeds, who also has international credentials, a UKC judge (as AKC does not recognize the APBT breed) who judges APBT's at UKC shows, and anther expert who is a long time breeder and trainer (also a vet tech degree), who is a dog behavior expert and legislative liaison who has worked on BSL legislation and studied the various pit bull breeds as part of her work.
> 
> ...


Could you tell me what exactly excluded Dexter from the pitbull standard according to the Denver ordinance?
I don't see how vet records count as evidence when mixes are put in as whatever the owner says it is. And how many years is "over the years"?


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

Pat Patricks website http://www.bolio.net/


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## tuco (Sep 14, 2009)

The reason that hardly anyone as late as 1970, even knew what a Pit was, is because the breeders and knowledgable owners kept to themselves. More or less underground.

Not just anyone could get a well bred Pit back then. One might have to spend time as a yard person and learn, and be judged.

The goals of the breeding programs of old dogmen like Boudreaux and Patrick are to produce the original Game APBT.

As humans, none of us can truly relate to anything we haven't experienced.
It would almost be impossible, for a GSD Fancier, to understand why Gameness would be so important for a breed.

This is the very reason why the media, HSUS, SPCA, BYB's, thugs, and wannabe's have really never understood the True APBT, and the "GAMENESS" trait.
They are still so confused on AGGRESSION vs GAMENESS.
These are 2 totally seperate traits. In truth, GAMENESS has nothing what so ever to do with AGGRESSION.

I'm not saying that Pro Athletes and Drug Dealers are all ignorant concerning APBT's. Some are quite knowledgeable.
Patrick and Boudreaux have sold dogs to both.

The thing is, a Pure Boudreaux or Patrick dog is like owning a 56 T Bird. They are valuable, because they are rare, and hard to find.
Most who buy them, won't rush out and begin breeding them.
That would cause them to not be uncommon and valuable any longer.

I don't breed APBT's or sell them. We feed around 60 dogs. About half our dogs are Pits.


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## tuco (Sep 14, 2009)

BLOODLINES Magazine, is the Journal of the UKC out of Kalamazoo, Mich.
In the mid 70's, BLOODLINES Magazine still featured real APBT's.
I remember Pat Patrick offered his Great "TOMBSTONE" dog @ Stud.
In the APBT section old Pete Sparks RIP, had a "Readers Write" Column, and so did the author "Richard Stratton".

Right after that time, Kennels like "TUFFTOWN" and more Bench type Kennels began taking over with modern Staff lines.
"Ralph Greenwood" who at that time owned and ran the ADBA, had so far only put out a 1973 Yearbook. 
This Yearbook had great APBT's from all over America and Canada.
Dogs like The Great Andre Giroux Gr Ch Carlo ROM of Canada.
Fiorilla's Red King and Broadway Jack's Ch. Drummer of NY.
On the cover appeared The One and Only, "Ch. JIMMY BOOTS" of Colorado.
After Ralph's death the ADBA grew to massive porportions. Mrs. Greenwood, who is the salt of the earth, built up the ADBA Gazette Magazine and held large Bench Shows and Weight Pulls.

The Staff and softer type dogs went UKC. APBT's went ADBA.
A UKC Pit and an ADBA Pit are very different. Neither dog would do well in their counterpart's show.


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

I'd like to know your definition of gameness, as well as these "founders" of the breed.

GAMENESS from http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=1910&S=1&SourceID=47


"Terriers are bred to have a quality called “gameness.” In the conformation show ring this is demonstrated by the judge having handlers allow the dogs to face one another and stand up tall. Skilled handlers don’t allow this to escalate to a fight. 

In daily life the expression of terrier gameness can come out in fighting, and because there is no particular reason for the fight, it can become quite serious. The adrenaline rush can prevent the dog from feeling pain, and submission from the other dog doesn’t stop the fight because it’s not about pack order in the first place. 

This is why terrier experts recommend that you not keep a terrier with another dog of the same sex. If you enjoy having multiple dogs, you’ll need to consider carefully where a terrier will fit into your group. Having a terrier may place limitations on what other dogs you can safely add to your home. The quality of gameness can also mean your terrier won’t be able to play peacefully with other dogs in settings such as dog parks, especially after maturity. Individual dogs vary, though, and this is only a tendency that in some terriers will never be expressed.

Many of the terrier breeds were originally selectively bred to work around the farm eliminating animals that interfere with farming. Some of these animals eat crops, food still growing in the ground as well as in storage after harvest. Other “vermin,” as pest animals are sometimes called, cause damage by digging holes that injure horses, cattle and other livestock. 

The job of hunting out and killing “vermin” doesn’t call for close teamwork with a human, so it’s not surprising that terriers have an independent turn of mind. The killing action is fast and the dog needs to be quick, decisive, and fearless. A dog performing this work does not wait for the human’s command, but gets on with business.

Terrier gameness has also been put to human use (illegal today) for sporting purposes of pitting one dog against another to bet on the outcome. These dogs would fight to the death. Some terriers retain this inherited behavior, which is often at the root of aggression toward other dogs. 

It’s important to understand that gameness is not “bad temperament.” Humans produced this trait in the dogs through selective breeding. Humans must bear the responsibility for managing the dogs to protect them from their own instincts, and to protect other dogs, too. The responsibility increases along with the size of the terrier."


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## tuco (Sep 14, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: MTAussie Pat Patricks website http://www.bolio.net/


I see all Pat has left, is frozen sperm. I Love his Anti HSUS Link.


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## JayMagic (Oct 13, 2009)

Dexter either has or lacks several characteristics. A few examples are almond versus round eyes, a high set versus low or even medium set tail, different ear leather, wrinkling in the forehead (a significant Boxer trait), droopy lips, and several other features not consistent with the pit bull standards. 

The Denver ordinance actually includes the AKC and UKC breed standards as part of the definition. When judged by breed standards (AKC or UKC) Dexter was clearly more Boxer than any pit bull and the requirement is that the dog must _<u>predominately </u>_meet meet the pit bull standards. Dexter did not. 

Dexter is a little over 4 and had seen a number of vets over the years. The vets had used a number of descriptions of his breed over time in his various medical and vaccination records. These breed descriptions are entered by the various vets and are not the owner's identification. While these alone would not be sufficient to overcome the breed evaluations by Denver Animal Control, they do add weight to the credibility of the breed experts who did physically examine Dexter. We also had an affidavit from a Vet who was specifically asked to identify Dexter's breed and who did not believe Dexter met the Denver BSL requirements.

Please remember that just generally being somewhat similar to a pit bull, like a cane corso, bull mastiff, boxer, presa canario, or other generally "bully" breeds does not meet the specific requirements of the Denver ordinance.

The clear problem we found was the incredible lack of expertise by the AC witnesses for Denver Animal Control on their knowledge what the breed characteristics of the three prohibited breeds are versus the breed characteristics of dogs which have similarities to the three banned breeds. To them, like some of the posters on this forum, if it sort of looks like it has some"pit" in it, it must be a pit. From a legal standpoint, that is just not true, and should not be a justification for taking someone's dog and killing it.

I understand that this is a GSD forum and hope that this discussion helps remind GSD owners that breed specific legislation can also be aimed at our breed.


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

Patrick and Bourdoux fought dogs and obviously considered this trait desirable and bred their dogs to optimize this trait.
I think it is exactly the reason why this breed has a bad rep., and people cannot handle them or they abuse this "trait" to fight dogs. 
The article is absolutely right that "the responsibility increases along with the size of the terrier." Especially one with pitbull jaws. Pitbulls I have worked with have a extemely low threshold to stimulus, which I can see would be a result of "gameness" and usually have at least on bite.
Once they lock on to another dog, fast moving object, etc. It is extemely hard to break their focus. I see SO many things wrong with continuing a breeding program promoting this trait. I can't imagine someone that really cares about this breed would promote or defend "gameness".

I can also see how the reported bites, attacks, even deaths, could be the result of this "trait". 

NO ONE should be fighting these dogs, and I am sure that there is a minority using them for killings vermin (I believe this would apply more to Jack Russels). So there is no benefit to continuing it.

Maybe this is something that BSL could be comprimised with. Breed this out of Pitbulls/APBT. Promote a stable companion with a healthy stimulus threshold. Dogs to be grandfathered in must pass a CGC/TDI test. Any PB breeding stock should have to pass this test and be dog friendly as well. 

If something doesn't change, it seems that the laws will and BSL will only spread and strengthen.


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: JayMagocDexter either has or lacks several characteristics. A few examples are almond versus round eyes, a high set versus low or even medium set tail, different ear leather, wrinkling in the forehead (a significant Boxer trait), droopy lips, and several other features not consistent with the pit bull standards.
> 
> The Denver ordinance actually includes the AKC and UKC breed standards as part of the definition. When judged by breed standards (AKC or UKC) Dexter was clearly more Boxer than any pit bull and the requirement is that the dog must _<u>predominately </u>_meet meet the pit bull standards. Dexter did not.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the response and additional information. I am still not clear on what the ordinance states and justifies as "predominately". Is there an actual description of what they consider a pitbull? I saw something that looked like a checklist of physical traits on the video, is that what they are using to evaluate dogs?

How many actual vets had Dexter seen in 4 years? 

How does it "have" to be a pit when it says "predominately"? Wouldn't that mean something like "mostly"? How is it not legal if that ordinance has been passed and is the law? 

The dog wasn't taken/stolen out of the yard from what I heard on the video, someone was watching him for the owner and for some reason Animal Control was at that persons home regarding a different dog. Since they were there and they thought he was "predominantely" pitbull and this is against the ordinance they took him. Is this correct?

What if he "was" predominately pitbull? According to the ordinance to they have to notify the owner or can they just take the dog?


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## tuco (Sep 14, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: MTAussie"Terriers are bred to have a quality called “gameness.” In the conformation show ring this is demonstrated by the judge having handlers allow the dogs to face one another and stand up tall. Skilled handlers don’t allow this to escalate to a fight.
> 
> In daily life the expression of terrier gameness can come out in fighting, and because there is no particular reason for the fight, it can become quite serious. The adrenaline rush can prevent the dog from feeling pain, and submission from the other dog doesn’t stop the fight because it’s not about pack order in the first place.
> 
> ...


Nothing above has anything remotely to do with gameness lol.
Everything mentioned above is Aggression, nothing else.

*Gameness:: must be willing to boldly fulfill any incessant desire the magnetism of which is so intense that it overtakes every fiber of existence. There is neither an obstacle substantial enough nor a distraction powerful, or painful enough to justify a cessation of the journey. The only legitimate impediment is death itself. Persistence must not subside until his deed is complete or until his final breath has exited his physical body. *
The term, "HOT" in APBT language refers to a very dog aggressive dog. The term, "COLD", means a Pit who has not yet turned on, or is not at all dog aggressive.

These Hotter than [heck], foaming at the mouth, ultra dog aggressive so called Pits out there have a very, very, very slim chance of being GAME.
They are ultra aggressive, but when tired or hurt or both would curl up in a ball and quit.

There are GAME Pits out there, who will play with other non aggressive dogs. There are also cold GAME dogs out there.
This is hard for even some true fanciers to comprehend.

You see, GAMENESS is determined in the womb. It can be measured. It can be tested. It CANNOT be bestowed.
There is NO way to make a dog GAME, or more GAME.


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## tuco (Sep 14, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: MTAussiePatrick and Bourdoux fought dogs and obviously considered this trait desirable and bred their dogs to optimize this trait.
> I think it is exactly the reason why this breed has a bad rep., and people cannot handle them or they abuse this "trait" to fight dogs.
> The article is absolutely right that "the responsibility increases along with the size of the terrier." Especially one with pitbull jaws. Pitbulls I have worked with have a extemely low threshold to stimulus, which I can see would be a result of "gameness" and usually have at least on bite.
> Once they lock on to another dog, fast moving object, etc. It is extemely hard to break their focus. I see SO many things wrong with continuing a breeding program promoting this trait. I can't imagine someone that really cares about this breed would promote or defend "gameness".
> ...


I'm sorry, but you have totally missed the boat.
You, like most, just can't seem to differentiate between
Aggression and Gameness.

It has not been proven that the Great Filly, Eight Belles did not
finish last year's Kentucky Derby on two broken ankles.
Eight Belles was the product of generations of "GAME" Race
Horses. No matter how much her lungs burned and bled, no matter
the pain she felt, every ancestor in her ped, told her to continue.
This is "GAMENESS"!


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## JayMagic (Oct 13, 2009)

The ordinance includes any dog displaying the majority of physical traits of any one or more of the three prohibited breeds or any dog exhibiting those distinguishing characteristics which substantially conform to the AKC or UKC breed standards. The City actually incorporates the breed specifications from the AKC for two of the three breeds (Staffordshire Bull Terrier and American Staffordshire Terrier and the UKC description for the APBT breed standard.

Animal Control uses a checklist of dog characteristics. It is not specific for pit bulls, but could be used for all dogs. It gives no guidance as to which characteristics belong to what breed of dogs. They may or may not have a copy of the AKC or UKC breed standards for reference. However, they don't necessarily either have them or know them.

I think the dog had been examined, treated or vaccinated by at least 5 different vets, none of whom identified his breed as a pit bull or a pit bull mix.

Basically, Dexter was at a friend's house with the owner out of town and AC was in the area for another dog and saw Dexter and impounded him and wrote a ticket. AC has the authority to seize and impound a dog on the suspicion that it might be a pit bull. The dog actually lives in a city that does not restrict pit bull ownership, but labeling Dexter as a pit bull would have subjected him to euthanasia had he been picked up in Denver for a second time.


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: JayMagocThe ordinance includes any dog displaying the majority of physical traits of any one or more of the three prohibited breeds or any dog exhibiting those distinguishing characteristics which substantially conform to the AKC or UKC breed standards. The City actually incorporates the breed specifications from the AKC for two of the three breeds (Staffordshire Bull Terrier and American Staffordshire Terrier and the UKC description for the APBT breed standard.
> 
> Animal Control uses a checklist of dog characteristics. It is not specific for pit bulls, but could be used for all dogs. It gives no guidance as to which characteristics belong to what breed of dogs. They may or may not have a copy of the AKC or UKC breed standards for reference. However, they don't necessarily either have them or know them.
> 
> ...


Well I can see that with that last bit of info that the owner would fight this. Although he should have known better to bring him into an area where he could be picked up as a pit. What do you mean if he had been picked up for a second time? They were going to let him go but if he was picked up again he would be euthanized? So the whole thing is to determine that he is not a pit so that he can be in Denver, although he does not live there?


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

"Nothing above has anything remotely to do with gameness lol.
Everything mentioned above is Aggression, nothing else.

Gameness:: must be willing to boldly fulfill any incessant desire the magnetism of which is so intense that it overtakes every fiber of existence. There is neither an obstacle substantial enough nor a distraction powerful, or painful enough to justify a cessation of the journey. The only legitimate impediment is death itself. Persistence must not subside until his deed is complete or until his final breath has exited his physical body. 
The term, "HOT" in APBT language refers to a very dog aggressive dog. The term, "COLD", means a Pit who has not yet turned on, or is not at all dog aggressive.

These Hotter than [heck], foaming at the mouth, ultra dog aggressive so called Pits out there have a very, very, very slim chance of being GAME.
They are ultra aggressive, but when tired or hurt or both would curl up in a ball and quit.

There are GAME Pits out there, who will play with other non aggressive dogs. There are also cold GAME dogs out there.
This is hard for even some true fanciers to comprehend.

You see, GAMENESS is determined in the womb. It can be measured. It can be tested. It CANNOT be bestowed.
There is NO way to make a dog GAME, or more GAME." 

So basically as an athlete would have the determination to finish anything with nothing strong enough to deter him from his goal. This I can see with Eight Belles, but related to Pitbulls killing other dogs it is way too wordy and romanticized. This is only BS that flows from those that find dog fighting a romantic and respectable endeavor.

If others like you reject the definition that I posted, I can't see how the Pitbull won't be completely banned in the US. 

According to your defintion of Gameness, what journey is the pitbull on in comparsion to race horses that this is neccesary?

And I have not experienced a 'hot' pitbull that is foaming at the mouth, as you described. I have seen them and other bully breed such as American Bulldogs, become completely focused and unresponding once focused on a dog, animal or even someone on a bike. They are not foaming at the mouth going crazy, which is exactly why people have a problem with this breed, if it was that easy to see there was going to be a problem, I think bites would happen a lot less. 

Instead owners see there dog focused on another dog pulling toward them, tail straight up and wagging tightly. Talking to the dog, dragging the dog, even shocking the dog will often not deter them, but once they give in and let their dog approach their object of focus, dogs are killed, people are bit, and the pitbull reputation is solidified once again.


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## JayMagic (Oct 13, 2009)

If a dog identified by Denver as a pit bull lives outside the city, he can be released to his owner. However, if the dog is then picked up a second time in Denver for whatever reason, then they can be killed, even though the dog lives elsewhere.

With this ruling, Dexter is now safe to visit his owner's friends in Denver. The owner carries a copy of the decision with him in his vehicle.


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

I feel like that info is not really being put out there with this story. I think it changes the tone of the ruling and story overall. I am glad it worked out for him, and that others might be more careful taking dogs that look like pits into these BSL areas after hearing his story, as I am sure they will not all be so lucky to get their own trial or save their dog before they are PTS.

Thanks JayMagoc for getting the real facts out there!


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## tuco (Sep 14, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: MTAussie"Nothing above has anything remotely to do with gameness lol.
> Everything mentioned above is Aggression, nothing else.
> 
> Gameness:: must be willing to boldly fulfill any incessant desire the magnetism of which is so intense that it overtakes every fiber of existence. There is neither an obstacle substantial enough nor a distraction powerful, or painful enough to justify a cessation of the journey. The only legitimate impediment is death itself. Persistence must not subside until his deed is complete or until his final breath has exited his physical body.
> ...


 Once again, all the things you list are aggression.
Talking, dragging, and shocking do not test gameness.
Killing dogs or other animals and biting people, do not test, show or have anything to do with Gameness.

I can type until my fingers bleed, but you will never understand something you have never experienced.

Back in the day, any Pit that showed human aggression would be culled immediately. I have Game Pits who couldnt be forced to bite a human adult or child. 
I would never want an APBT to feel it was OK to bite a human. Neither adult or child. Ironically a PitBull and kids once seemed perfect together. Remember Pete from the Little Rascals and Our Gang Comedies?

This is also a part of Gameness.
The Gameness in the Gamebred dogs of the past, is just what made them the perfect child's companion. The perfect family Pet.
When APBT's were bred for gameness one never heard of a Pit biting anyone or killing anyone's pet. Stability and confidence is a major part of a Gamebred dog.

Why does a Game Pit need to be on any journey, other than the journey to be a perfect pet?
There are countless Game Pits who have lived long full lives, and not once ever had to show aggression towards anything.

Any of these Cur bred so called Pits, who bite or kill humans are not even remotely Game. They are Aggressive and dangerous, but not Game. 

Below is a pic taken 2yrs ago. It is of my daughter, who was 8yrs in pic, and of our REX, after a swim. In the pic, REX was 13yrs old. 
REX is a belly brother to the ACE GR CH CHUCO LOCO. 
REX is the perfect example of a Gamebred dog.
Now and in his prime, he would play with non aggressive dogs.
If any child or baby approaches him, he lays on his back and wants
them to pet him.
I have never had any dog of any breed live as long as Rex.
He is now almost 16yrs old and other than grey, he acts like he always did.
He is an old throwback to the original game dog. You can trust any child alone with him. If man or beast would have tried to come around a child in his care, they would have been in big trouble.
At least up to a few years ago.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

WOW. Some seriously demented people posting on this thread!


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

Tuco, I am confused, it seems you change your tune every other post. The website that was about "Game Dogs" was in reference to dog fighting.
I posted that a trait like this that you describe as "the only legitimate impediment is death itself. Persistence must not subside until his deed is complete or until his final breath has exited his physical body", is not preferable especially to pits, and would only accelerate BSL...

So just how are you going to twist this to apply to the journey to a "perfect pet" and childs companion? If they never show aggression to anything in their lifetime, why are they described as "game" by the supposed founders and they fought their dogs all over the world according to Bordeaux on the link that I posted? And why is death the only option?

Oh you mean they only kill other "game" dogs when taken to a fight? This "gameness" in your definition and the founders (if they agree with you) is sick and twisted, and BS, which could very be the reason for the BS in BSL.

After seeing the information that is proudly displayed on "game dog" websites I am convinced that these supposed founders of the APBT were the catalyst and demise of this breed.

I sincerely hope that responsible, and knowlegeable people can take control of this breed and stop it from being eradicated and thrown into mass graves as they are doing in Denver while promoting stable pits and spay/neutering....and take them out of the hands of sick dog fighting advocates that overbreed, that spread and promote this stupid idea of a ideal trait "gameness" to that of a "perfect family pet" and turning a blind eye to the obvious dangerous implications of this poor excuse of a breeding program goal.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

Jay, thanks so much for giving such detailed information on how Dexter was judged to be a mixed breed instead of an ABPT. Glad to know it wasn't simply a case of "exeperts" lying under oath.

Hopefully one day people will be able to defeat BLS in Denver and everywhere else in the US.


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## tuco (Sep 14, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: MTAussieTuco, I am confused, it seems you change your tune every other post. The website that was about "Game Dogs" was in reference to dog fighting.
> I posted that a trait like this that you describe as "the only legitimate impediment is death itself. Persistence must not subside until his deed is complete or until his final breath has exited his physical body", is not preferable especially to pits, and would only accelerate BSL...
> 
> So just how are you going to twist this to apply to the journey to a "perfect pet" and childs companion? If they never show aggression to anything in their lifetime, why are they described as "game" by the supposed founders and they fought their dogs all over the world according to Bordeaux on the link that I posted? And why is death the only option?
> ...


Yes, it's very true that you are confused. I haven't twisted anything.
It's no secret. The original APBT's were bred for the Pit.
The most sought after trait was Gameness.
This doesn't mean that one has to expose a gamebred dog to the Pit and make use of the trait.

From the early 1800's this trait was bred into these dogs. From the Staffordshire Mines to the USA.
This very trait in the dog, seems to make a more appreciative and devoted dog. A better dog. I can't tell you why.

Just because Gameness is inside of a dog, doesn't mean the dog will ever need to prove it or use it.

You could have taken one of Patrick's pups or young dogs. If you raised the pup around friendly dogs, the chances are very good that the dog would never be in a fight in his life.
You would see what a clown and how loving the dog is.
You would never fight the dog, but still you may have a Game dog.

Somewhere in this world, there is a young man who could be the Hvy Wt Champion of the World. This young man is probably friendly and docile. He will never be tested or find out what is inside him.
He still had the ability. It was just never used.

You can buy a 4 wheel drive truck. Maybe you will never ever need it, or use it. It is still there.

That's what you, and the BYB's, HSUS, Experts lol, thugs etc. don't understand.
One cannot make a dog Game by making them fight, having them hurt or kill helpless animals, duct taping, or any of the crazy, sick things that the media puts out.
Gameness is inside the dog in the womb. It has already been predetermined. It does not mean the dog will be aggressive towards any living thing. Quite the contrary.

What ruined the breed is Idiots who take inferior dogs, bred like God only knows, and doing crazy, ridiculous and cruel things.
Then if one of these Cur Bred Examples is a Psyco, they breed it and create more unstable, Psyco dogs.
They start off on Craigslist and the paper for a hundred or two.
After they start growing, they will be Free of Charge.
Of course everyone who gets one, will want to breed ASAP.

I take in all dogs. Back when my daughter was in HS, she did volunteer work at the shelter closest to our Farm.
She brought every dog home, that was on Death Row.
That was 6yrs ago, and most are still here.
Some were up in years, and passed away.
This is Flea aka Miss Piggy. She is a Gamebred girl, who is 10yrs old. She has never been in a fight in her life.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=124937








Here is Flea with 2 Death Row buds. They have just finished chasing a Jack. Notice the Cur Fur hackled up on Tonie, the lab lol.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: tuco
> It has not been proven that the Great Filly, Eight Belles did not
> finish last year's Kentucky Derby on two broken ankles.
> Eight Belles was the product of generations of "GAME" Race
> ...


No..that was TRAGIC! Eight Belles is of the Northern Dancer line and these horses do not mature until they are _at least 4 years old_. Her bones could not take the punishment. It is disgusting for anyone to have the thought that running her into the ground was ok because her ancestors gave her "gameness". 

I have seen many Northern Dancer horses with their fine bones have to delay training in hunt seat until they are three because of the damage being done to their legs. That is HUNT SEAT...not RACING! Imagine what racing is doing to them.


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## tuco (Sep 14, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Jax08
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: tuco
> ...


Yes, it was Tragic. Whether it was OK or not, is not for me to judge. Racing Horses are not my business.

What is sad is you, disparaging the courage and gameness of a great filly. If you don't think Eight Belles showed ultimate Gameness...........


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

No Tuco, I am confused because you make no sense. You continue to dance around the fact that "game dog" means "fighting dog" to those that believe your definition of "gameness". 

You are just another joe blow putting misinformation and romanticizing and devoid of reality. You seem to be out of touch with the tragedies that these dogs face because of your ignorance, and support of self serving pitbull breeders such as Patrick and Bordeaux, who overbreed and as you have stated, even sell their dogs to Pro Athletes and Drug Dealers, therefore making their breeding programs and fighting dogs direct descendants and have contributed to the very issue that this post was originially about.


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

Here is a great and solid link http://www.pbrc.net/faq.html
to the Pit Bull Rescue Central. They have a great explanation of "gameness" and even use a border collies work ethic as an example. 
Yet they also mention that those that fought dogs, such as Patrick and Bordeaux and most early participants in the breed, tested gameness by fighting their dogs, and in my opinion bred for their twisted version of gameness, that I think includes animal aggression and a poor temperment including a weak stimulus threshold and is completely unethical.

_"As the previous passage suggests, gameness is by *no means a specialized “pit bull trait.”* Like animal aggression, it’s a dog trait. This kind of drive is, most accurately, a working dog trait. The tireless Border Collies we see in herding and tracking exhibit gameness. As such, many other breeds are frequently tested and certified for gameness using non-fighting scenarios. The working terriers informally know as “dirt dogs”—a designation that covers Dachshunds, Jack Russell Terriers, Patterdale Terriers, West Highland White Terriers, Cairn Terriers, Norwich Terriers, and many other breeds—are routinely tested on their ability to quarry and “work” small rodents. Jack Russell and Patterdale Terriers still serve the valuable function of ridding farms of groundhogs and badgers"_

In contrast,<u>* "Dogfighters obviously assess gameness by testing their dogs in the pit. Their ultimate (and very cruel) goal would be to produce a dog that would fight other dogs to the death (these rare dogs are referred to as “dead game”)."*</u>
Now, if you put two Border Collies in a ring would they fight to the death? How likely would it be to find two BC's that would do this? 
In contrast, if you took two "foundation" and supposedly rare pitbulls, how likely is it that they would fight to the death and how difficult would it be to find these dogs?
This is the problem, and I feel that the goals of breeders that test their dogs "gameness" by fighting and base their breeding program on this, are breeding more than just "gameness" by the Pit Bull Rescue Central's definition, but a "gameness" by the dog fighters defintion therefore producing unsound animals.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

GAMENESS? Sounds like BS.
So your talking about a "drive."
Like beagles have (sniffing)....but Pits have it in fighting.......??????


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: tuco
> 
> 
> Yes, it was Tragic. Whether it was OK or not, is not for me to judge. Racing Horses are not my business.
> ...


Yes. I'm a sad, sad person. Why is it if someone disagrees with you then you throw out an insult? Would you like to take *another *shot at my 13 year old daughter? That was pretty cool of you.

I think Eight Belles should have had a tremendous career and would have gone on to be one of the greats in the sport. Instead, she was put into a race that her bones were not mature enough to stand the punishment and now she's dead. 

If they had waited another year then they would have missed the Derby with her but her bones would have had more density and she could have proved her "gameness" then. If you want to use a horse as an example then you should at least have a clue what your talking about.

A HUMAN put her in that position. Probably one with your mentality. Humans put these pits in the position of fighting. Gameness is your state of mind...not theirs!


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## JayMagic (Oct 13, 2009)

For those that want to follow the Denver story here is link to the latest story about the hearing. 

http://www.westword.com/2009-10-15/news/...-a-short-leash/


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

OK, so I'm kind of confused how a comparison to pit bull fighting and horse racing happened here?? It's like comparing apples to oranges. They might both be animal "sports" but hardly on the same level!


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

They are talking about "gamesness" some kind of trait I think is "installed" in some breeds?


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Oh, I know they are talking about "gameness" but so-called "gameness" in a race horse and "gameness" in a bully breed dog are not at all the same thing!!!

For starters, I would call this so-called horse "gameness" "drive."


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

Yah Yah. I dont think "gameness" is even like a correct term....for anything!
AHHAHAA


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## tuco (Sep 14, 2009)

Jax,

Do you and the other gals here really take things so serious?
I joke around a lot, but it seems here it is all lost.

One girl here, was PM'ing me. She tells me how rude I am. I tease her, and
she becomes even more upset. She finally stopped PM'ing me, but I was going
to tell her that when I see the PM flasher from her, I hear the theme music from 
JAWS.

In the aggression section of this forum, a poster posts about their GSD mouthing
a Chihuahua. I replied to the post and asked if the GSD got heartburn from the
Mexican food?
I wasn't serious. I own and love deeply 4 chihuahuas. I know how they act and behave.
I can see one of my chihuahuas attacking the larger dog, then scream and run away.

I really can't believe you accuse me of taking a shot at your 13yr old daughter.
The first time I came to this forum, I replied to your thread, regarding your daughter wrestling.
Right after that thread, I had addressed you on someone elses thread in a joking manner and you teased me right back.
Now when I do on this thread, you call me a Jerk.

I have been to literally hundreds of wrestling matches. Wrestling and the mat are,
and always have been a major part of my life and a constant topic in this household.
I was the best 185 pounder to ever come out of Denver North HS. I went to State at the Denver Auditorium in Downtown Denver. 11 years later, I fought a Kickboxing Match 
at the same Auditorium.
In 2000, my son, was in the first year of Colorado Wrestlers who had their State Wrestling
Tourney held at the then, New Pepsi Center.

My son, who I coached, went on to wrestle Hvy Wt for the National NAIA Championship Squad in College and later in Div 1 NCAA.
My son now fights MMA out of Az Combat Sports, along with his college partner and best friend CB (The Doberman) Dollaway.

I still coach wrestling. I love to watch any style of wrestling. Collegiate, Freestyle, Greco Roman, I don't care if it's Peewee or if it's girls, boys, or the very best of NCAA Div 1.

When I said, I was planning to come watch your daughter wrestle, of course it wouldn't be practical for me to travel to Penn in order to do so, but if she wrestled close by, I would be there to watch.

If you get into HS Wrestling, you will begin understanding the term "Gameness" much better.

Out here in my neck of the woods, little Wayland Baptist University, has just added men's and women's Wrestling to their program.
The Great Wrestler, and Coach of The Wrestling Powerhouse, Iowa, Dan Gable came here to celebrate the program.

When animals are bred for any traits, and specially traits like Heart or "Gameness",
the pedigree is everything.
Not just any horse has the will to run when they are tired or feel discomfort and or
pain. These horses are bred down from Game ancestors.
Seabiscuit became an unlikely champion and a symbol of hope to many US citizens during the Great Depression.

People all over the world, cheered and loved the Gameness of the little 2009 Kentucky Derby Winner, MINE THAT BIRD.
Everyone loves to see a longshot beat the odds and show Gameness to Win.
MINE THAT BIRD, is known for his strong finish when others give up and fade.
Even in the Preakness, he was gaining fast on the winner, filly, RACHEL ALEXANDRA,
when they crossed the finish line.

Pedigrees Matter! You could get 2 GSD pups. One pup could be sired by ASKO LUTTER RIP. The other could be sired by BROWNHILL/KYSARAH LEONARDO.
Both pups would be GSD's, but that's about all they would have in common.
Their drives, nerves, courage, and physical abilities would be much different.

Describing Gameness to most people is impossible. It’s like describing how something tastes. If you haven't experienced something just like it, words can’t convey the thought. 
Most every human being that walks the earth, admires Gameness, when they recognize it. 
Some of us even seek it out. We look for it in sports that tests man's courage. We find traces of it in race horses, wild animals, and to a great degree in gamecocks and dogs. 

I truly believe this is why so many pro athletes are drawn towards Game Dogs.
These high paid athletes have shed blood, sweat and tears to finally reach success.
They understand what it is to be tired, in pain, hurt. In the sport of Football, injury is always a factor.

It has nothing to do with being a tough guy "who will fight at the drop of a hat". It’s when you’re getting whipped that you find out how Game you are. It's ONLY then when you can find out. Border Collies working, has nothing to do with Gameness.
Just because someone puts up a website with their def of Gameness, doesn't mean they have a clue what it is.

Look at the popularity of the Boxers, "Irish Mickey Ward" and the Late "Arturo Gatti"
Both are loved because of their "GAMENESS"
Both fighters, no matter how tired, no matter how bloody and hurt, they never give up
their will to Win.

In Feb. 2008, I watched "Inside MMA" on HDnet. I was surprised when a guest, Author and former fighter Sam Sheridan, spoke about how he learned about "Gameness". It was from watching Pitbulls fight in The Philippines. It was obvious, the host of the show along with Bas Rutten, were very uncomfortable with this talk.

If you want to hear Sheridan speak about Pitbulls, click on "the Performance" on the page below. You will have to listen to him speak for 12min, 42sec, before he gets to the dogs. When Sheridan speaks about the fighting Pits and the importance of Love between conditioner and dog.
http://www.booksoup.com/podcast/SamSheridan.asp

Gameness is not the willingness to fight; it's not the courage to get killed by a better opponent. "Gameness" is the will to Win!


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## Doubleminttwin (Aug 21, 2009)

So Tuco you are saying that "gameness" is something equivilent to spirit or determiniation, "the heart of a champion" and all that stuff? I think hearing the word gameness especially related to pitbulls might throw ppl off. If the above is what you would describe as gameness than it is indeed a great atribute for any human or animal. My brother is a big football buff lol he's played since he was 7 and he is now 23 and trying out for the NFL at the end of the yr, he usually tlks about athletes in much the same way. I can see how this word would be applied to pitbulls but my bleeding heart hates to think of the ones that have to have their gameness tested in a fighting ring







There has to be a better way to show the heart of the dog than somthing so bloody and cruel.


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## tuco (Sep 14, 2009)

Jen, I feel Ya. I really do.
It isn't pretty at all, but the sad truth is, deep, deep Gameness
isn't tested until a living thing is in dire pain, beaten down, way, way behind, at a point where all seems hopeless. It is at this time,
"Gameness" comes into play.

A terminally ill patient who right up until the end, believes they are going to beat their affliction, in my estimation is showing deep "Gameness".
Not a terminally ill patient dying with courage, but a patient who is dying, but refuses to believe it or accept it and fights it till the last breath.

Not often, but once in a great while a Boxer will be getting destroyed and hurt. His corner will stop the fight. The fighter will go berserk. In his heart, he truly felt he was going to win. This is "Gameness".


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)




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## tuco (Sep 14, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: MTAussie


That's pretty funny coming from someone who has to put up gameness links from a lost rescue and Kathy Diamond Davis lolol.
I guess if the closest thing to Gameness I ever saw, was a dog catch a frisbee, I would post them too.

Hate all you like, but the only Game dog is the True APBT.

You haven't yet been able to spell his name right, but here's the latest on a friend of yours.

Vindicated family sues SPCA
By RICHARD BURGESS
Advocate Acadiana bureau
Published: Oct 15, 2009


LAFAYETTE — A father and son acquitted last year on dogfighting charges filed a lawsuit Wednesday for restitution from the animal welfare group that killed their prized pit bulls.

Floyd J. Boudreaux and his son, Guy Boudreaux, are also seeking damages from the Louisiana Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals for mental distress and loss of income from the sale of the pit bulls’ offspring.

A judge last year acquitted the father and son on dogfighting charges, citing a lack of evidence.

But the 57 “Eli” pit bulls that State Police had seized from their home in a 2005 raid had long since been euthanized by the SPCA.

The Boudreaux’s attorney, Richard Dalton, said the Boudreaux family had bred the internationally known “Eli” bloodline of pit bulls for more than 100 years and the destroyed dogs were valued at about $300,000.

He said that figure does not include the price the dog breeders could fetch from future offspring. Testimony at the Boudreaux’s trial last year raised questions about who authorized the killings.

State law allows for the killing of suspected fighting dogs under certain conditions, but there are provisions for dog owners to challenge euthanasia and to post a cash bond to pay for the cost of boarding the animals pending trial.

The state trooper who investigated the case testified at the Boudreaux’s criminal trial that he believed the SPCA would house the animals and did not know the dogs would be euthanized.

A representative from the SPCA testified that no one person at the nonprofit animal welfare group made the decision to kill the animals but that there was a general assumption that the dogs would be euthanized.

Dalton said the killing of all 57 of the Boudreaux’s dogs has effectively ended the family’s legacy of breeding the “Eli” bloodline.

He said the raid and subsequent killing of the dogs was so distressing to Floyd Boudreaux that he “had a heart attack five days after it happened.”

A telephone message at the SPCA’s New Orleans’ office was not returned Wednesday afternoon.

The lawsuit was filed in 15th Judicial District Court in Lafayette Parish.


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

So you are down to insults now? Where's your "gameness"?


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## FlyByNight (Feb 16, 2004)

I pay attention to a Pit Bull forum, and this topic comes up all the time. And I gotta say, I always come back to the question of how useful gameness really is. What is its function? How does it manifest in a useful capacity?

As far as I can tell, deep gameness is a romantic ideal and nothing more. A deep game dog gets himself killed in the ring because he doesn't know when to quit, he thinks he's still gonna win. Then we get to call him "dead game." 

The concept of heart, spirit, etc., are purely human abstractions based on emotion. You don't see a wolf or a bear with "heart" because they know when to quit and save their butts for another day. A bighorn ram in breeding season weighs the odds of besting an opponent and knows when to back off to come back and spar another day. 

A deep game hog hunting dog gets himself gored and endangers his handler because he won't back off when it's appropriate.

Now, there is certainly something useful in a dog who won't quit under stress, pressure, bad weather, and a certain level of physical pain/discomfort. But a dog who will get himself killed because he doesn't know when to quit is of no use to me. He's game sure, but in my mind, that's synonymous with "stupid." 

Unless of course, all you're looking for is a dog to send on a suicide mission who won't ask questions.


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## tuco (Sep 14, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: FlyByNightI pay attention to a Pit Bull forum, and this topic comes up all the time. And I gotta say, I always come back to the question of how useful gameness really is. What is its function? How does it manifest in a useful capacity?
> 
> As far as I can tell, deep gameness is a romantic ideal and nothing more. A deep game dog gets himself killed in the ring because he doesn't know when to quit, he thinks he's still gonna win. Then we get to call him "dead game."
> 
> ...


The internet has been just another problem for the APBT.
Here one can find many APBT Message boards full of posters who post with authority, but everything they know is from the net.

These boards run rapant with Internet Doggers.
There are a few private boards who may have a few members who are knowledgable doggers, but not many.
I have never been there, but I know of doggers who post on the "Peds on Line Board", or as some refer to it as, "Feds on Line".

Back in the day, if a dogger said a dog was dead game, it simply meant the dog was deep game. Now, arguements rise out of a simple play on words. It's a very popular statement to make on APBT Message Boards, when one states, the only "dead game" dog is dead.

9 times out of 10, the statement is made by people who have never laid eyes on a game dog.

Deep Gameness is so, so much more than just a romantic ideal. If one experiences a relationship with a game dog, they will understand many functions, and just how much such a dog's capacity is, to be a better all around dog.

The dogmen who bred gameness into the APBT did not let their dogs die in the pit. The very existence of Cajun Rules are to provide a way out for the dog.
A True Dogman loved his dog. If he saw that his dog couldn't win, he would concede, in order to save his dog. He frequently asked for a Courtesy Scratch to prove the Gameness of his dog, even though he had lost the fight.

A dog who proved his gameness in a losing effort, often received more laurels that any winner would receive.
It was very, very rare for a dog to die in the pit.
Deep Game dogs can also win and prove their gameness with a victory. There are also deep game dogs with high intelligence. 
Patrick's Tombstone, proved himself to be a deep game dog in his win over the wrecking machine, Bullyson Jr.
Many, many of todays well bred gamebred dogs go back to Tombstone.
I might add, Patrick did not fight Tombstone. He had purchased Tombstone after the match with Bullyson Jr.
The breedings that Patrick did with his "Red Baby" to "Tombstone" are legendary.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=13

Many great dogs also came down from Bullyson Jr.

Many of the best producers in APBT history had lost in the pit, yet went on to be great producers.
Wood's Snooty lost twice, yet produced ACES.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=86

The "Red Boy" line of dogs are popular for their gameness, yet Red Boy's grandsire, SARGE, not only lost, but quit as well.

I can go on and on listing dogs who had lost in the pit, but had successful careers as studs.
The True APBT Dogmen, were totally different than this new Media, and Internet made so called dogger.

No true dogman would have ever known what a "Baitdog" is, unless they saw it on the net or read it in the newspaper.

A true dogman would have no more use for a baitdog than Emanuel
Steward would have for a child in Elementary School, when he gets Wladimir Klitschko ready for a fight.

This modern era of cruel, sadistic, freaks are Not Dogmen. They learned their methods from the media and print. Their training manuel is the local paper and what untruths and garbage will be printed next. They are a far, far cry from the dogmen who bred gameness into the APBT Breed.


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## smyke (Sep 24, 2009)

Hi there tuco.
I have been following this thread for a while now and just dont get it. 
I am a newbie to GSDs and definitely know nothing about APBT breed, other than reading and watching horror stories of people being killed by them and all this other stuff. I know you will take a stab at me for even opening my mouth (sorta), but thats OK I will just join the group.








anyway. how can you call someone, who puts HIS dog in the pit to fight just to get HIS jollies off, a dogman? regardless if they take care of the dog after the fight he lost and all that nonsense.
I know dogs may love that for some reason (probably because they dont know any better) and they are "game" but its just plain cruel and should not be condoned for any reason. whether the breed was meant to do this or not.
He should end up where Michael Vick did or worse.

Thats just my 2 cents.

Take care of yourself.


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## FlyByNight (Feb 16, 2004)

I understand the difference between a dogman and a thug on the street. I understand that baitdogs are a modern inception, not a part of old-school dogman standards. I realize that a dog can lose a match and still be game. I understand that historically dogman claim they would save the dog before he killed himself.

But I ask again, how does this manifest to make a good dog useful? 



> Quote:If one experiences a relationship with a game dog, they will understand many functions, and just how much such a dog's capacity is, to be a better all around dog.


An abstraction, then. 

I don't want a dog who's a quitter. But I don't want a dog who doesn't know when to pull back. In modern real-life situations, that dog is going to get himself killed. 

Which again, if you're working military or some such and need an animal to send into impossible scenarios, that might be just what you're looking for - in that case the dog is an accepted casualty. You don't need a dog so much as you need a body.


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## tuco (Sep 14, 2009)

Mike, under the circumstances, I would be very surprised if you felt any other way.
The dogmen I speak of are most all dead now. I do not condone dogfighting. I watch in horror what has become of the breed I love.

If you have never been around Pits or men who have spent their lives with Pits, you couldn't understand any of it. There is certainly nothing wrong with that.


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## smyke (Sep 24, 2009)

Did those dogmen you speak of put their dogs in the pit to fight?


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## tuco (Sep 14, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: FlyByNightI understand the difference between a dogman and a thug on the street. I understand that baitdogs are a modern inception, not a part of old-school dogman standards. I realize that a dog can lose a match and still be game. I understand that historically dogman claim they would save the dog before he killed himself.
> 
> But I ask again, how does this manifest to make a good dog useful?
> 
> ...


Sarah,

That's why different dogs are bred for different purposes.
The great majority of deep game dogs would be horrible military, police, or protection dogs.

Remember, a deep game APBT is game in combat against another animal. Most all deep game APBT's would be all but impossible to train to bite or attack a human under any circumstances.
Of course there will be exceptions, but most would fail miserably at some of the tasks you mention.


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## tuco (Sep 14, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: smykeDid those dogmen you speak of put their dogs in the pit to fight?


I'm certain that most everyone knows that the men who bred gameness into the APBT fought their dogs.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

the main thing that I've seen pits used for now is hog catching. well, when I lived in FL; I don't know anyone here that hunts hogs.

anyway, the reason that they prefer the pit is because of the "don't know when to quit" gameness that tuco mentioned. when dealing with hogs, unless the dog will fight to the death, it will die. Hogs are UNBELIEVABLY vicious and if the dog were to try to back off before the handlers arrived, it would be killed. Also, if the dog were to back off people on the scene could be seriously hurt or killed.

though I guess this would also depend on how you felt about hog-catching.....


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## FlyByNight (Feb 16, 2004)

> Quote:Remember, a deep game APBT is game in combat against another animal.


Right. Which is why I'm unconvinced that such a specific quality has a purpose in today's society. 

As mentioned above, hog hunting is the only legal thing I can really think of where that trait could be useful... and in that scenario, it's not infrequently that dogs die. It's considered an accepted risk, however you feel about the act itself. 

Really my issue is with the definition of the term. Those who still work their dogs in capacities other than matching speak of the sheer gusto with which APBT throw themselves into their jobs, whatever the task may be, and that, to me, is an admirable quality for sure. 

Shaking off the notion of gameness as defined in the ring, I can see where a determined, gutsy performance breed could be upheld in the APBT, sans matching. And there are a few people trying to do that, but there are equally many infatuated with the matching dog, who can't seem to let go of the idea that these dogs' worth can only be tested in battle. And there are even more people who's only concept of the APBT is as street cred. 

I don't see the APBT lasting without a new, legitimate roll set out for it. The old-style Pit Bull will not remain if its only options are the pet market, the thug market, and dog fighting.


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## tuco (Sep 14, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: FlyByNight
> 
> 
> > Quote:Remember, a deep game APBT is game in combat against another animal.
> ...


 It's really not a worry. The deep game, old style APBT is all but dead. If the few out there don't stay hidden, they will all be gone.

As for the people who believe they are saving the breed with their noble activities, for every new APBT owner with noble intentions, a thousand with evil intentions appear.
I cringe every time I hear of a child or adult being bitten or killed by some cur bred Pit.

I would much rather the breed be totally banned than keep in the direction, down the drain, where it's headed.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

tuco,
please clarify something for me...
you say you would rather the breed be banned totally then for it to continue where its headed and you glorify the the old style APBT..
from what i'm understanding in your posts the old style APBT that you are talking about was bred for "game" and that was tested in a pit dog vs dog....dog fighting. Maybe back in your day it was called testing for game and now its fighting but its still the same thing. methods may be different reasons may be different but its still the same thing. 

You said:
The goals of the breeding programs of old dogmen like Boudreaux and Patrick are to produce the original Game APBT.
As humans, none of us can truly relate to anything we haven't experienced.It would almost be impossible, for a GSD Fancier, to understand why Gameness would be so important for a breed.

can you explain to me how gameness as you've described tested in fighting is important...especially in today's society?

your way of thinking is contributing to the state of pitbulls today...ignorant people will think its cool to test their dogs "game" then once money gets thrown in we have now the ultra cruel dog fighting rings and bait dogs...

maybe i'm completely misunderstanding you but your posts make it seem like you are an advocate of dog fighting just not the way its done today.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

Couldnt you do the same thing to a german shepherd?
Or any other dog?







them off so they fight???
Yeah, I think so......I guess people just favor the pits.
Im sure maybe they have a bit more aggresion than any other dog if they keep breeding them with mean







dogs. But isnt "meaness" a learned behavior?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

No. Meanness is not learned behavior. BYB have taken unstable dogs and bred them. Pit bulls used to be bred so that if one attacked, or even showed aggression towards, humans they were immediately put down. neighbors of ours had a pit. Had it from a baby and never was it abused. One day it tore the hind quarter off of a horse without any provocation! That is unstable.

The little dog on The Little Rascals?...that was a pit.

The dogs euthanized in LA? That was a reputable breeder.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

OMG! Ok, so I was a little right....but mostly off.
Thats awful.
So lines and lines of aggressive dogs were bred?
And then you end up with an unstable dog with unpredicable behavior?


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## tuco (Sep 14, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Jax08No. Meanness is not learned behavior. BYB have taken unstable dogs and bred them. Pit bulls used to be bred so that if one attacked, or even showed aggression towards, humans they were immediately put down. neighbors of ours had a pit. Had it from a baby and never was it abused. One day it tore the hind quarter off of a horse without any provocation! That is unstable.
> 
> The little dog on The Little Rascals?...that was a pit.
> 
> The dogs euthanized in LA? That was a reputable breeder.


This is a perfect example of why a Pit should only go to certain owners. The owners need to be aware at all times, of the possibilities that come with Pit ownership.

Had the Pit above attacked a human for no reason, I would agree the dog was unstable. In the example above the Pit attacked a horse.

In any of the books Richard Stratton wrote, his best advice was "Never trust a Pitbull not to fight".
Some Pits never turn on, and remain cold all their lives.
Other Pits are cold and gentle towards other animals one day, and then turn on the next and have to be contained.

Maybe the biggest misconseption is how fighting dogs were treated.
The best dogmen loved and treated their dogs better than they treated themselves.

The famous Pitman and breeder, Al Brown who owned the great Tacoma Jack dog,(foundation dog of the Tacoma line) would travel around in a big utility truck.
The truck was loaded with pups and dogs.
Mr. Brown would meet doggers and give them 2 pups with a stipulation.
The stipulation would be that the pups are raised in a family environment, and given lots of love.
When grown, Mr. Brown would come back and pick up one of the dogs. The other would belong to the person.

You see, Mr. Brown knew that Pits raised with lots of love make the best fighters.

The puppy that was raised with kindness and love by Jax' neighbor, gave the dog love and confidence. 
When instinct took over and the dog turned on, he went after the big dog aka horse.

Pit ownership should be taken seriously. I don't care how gentle or friendly a Pit seems, precautions should be taken.

Angel, No you cannot do this with a GSD or another breed. Aggression and mean-ness will only take a animal so far. When said animal gets tired or hurt or both, the mean-ness and aggression go out the window.

Now I'm not saying that a smaller or untalented Pit can't get whipped or killed by a much larger aggressive breed. But if things are even remotely close in size, the Pit's gameness will win in the end.

Below are the dogs that were destroyed in La.
http://www.katc.com/player/?video_id=751


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## tuco (Sep 14, 2009)

Jax is spot on! This is the story of The Little Rascals, "Petey"

Petey, or Lucenay's Peter (his United Kennel Club registered name) was whelped September 6th, 1929. He was bred by A.A. Keller, and owned/trained by Harry Lucenay. Petey was put into films at around six months. He is the son of Pal, The Wonder Dog -- a dog owned by Petey's trainer, Harry Lucenay. Pal was actually the first dog to appear regularly in OG shorts. Pal's screen credits include 13 feature films released from Dec. 1921 to Oct. 1927. 

Petey was signed in 1927 to a three-year contract with six month options. His starting salary was $125 per week, which would be raised in increments of $25 per week to make him exclusive to Hal Roach Studios -- making him the second highest paid actor in the OG series (next to Farina). 

The first Pete was poisoned by an unknown assailant. His last film was A Tough Winter. One of his offsprint carried on beginning with the next film, Pups Is Pups. Pete's real name was "Pal," and he was owned and trained by Harry Lucenay. The distinctive circle around his eye was originally unplanned. When the spunky pit bull made his "Our Gang" debut, a circle had been painted around his eye and would not come off. It made sense to keep it there - it made him stand out. That circle often migrates between the right and left eye from film to film. This was obviously a dog with a lot of tricks! However, if the truth be known, there were other Petey's that were used as standins for some stunts and other duties, like close-ups. 

Pete first got his break in show business in the 1920s when he took over Pal's(his dad) place in the Buster Brown silent movies. The Buster Brown director, Hal Roach, went on to direct Pete in the Our Gang comedies. Infamous for the ring around his left eye and his funny antics, Pete quickly stole the show. Daintily attired Buster found himself in innocuous misadventures along side his faithful canine companion, Tige. (Petey to you and me!) Unlike Our Gang, the series was obviously aimed at very young audiences and offered very little for adults. I have no doubt that youngsters were thoroughly entertained by Buster Brown, however it seems strange watching our most popular Little Rascal elsewhere, but he is well-trained and skillfully shows off his abilities with Buster Brown. 

Pete's last appearance was in "A Tough Winter", released June 21, 1930. "He was poisoned, probably by someone with a grudge against Harry Lucenay. The OG kids were inconsolable upon learning of Pete's death. But since Lucenay was breeding a "Pete" line, he was able to substitute one of Pete's descendants. The second Pete has the circle on the opposite eye and the ears and front legs have a slightly different coloring. The second Pete only stayed at Roach Studios for two years, because Lucenay was fired. 

The last 'true Pete' OG comedy (meaning Pete #1 and his son) was "The Pooch" (1932). All subsequent Pete's were from an entirely different bloodline. After leaving Roach, Pete (#2) went to NY, and appeared in the Fatty Arbuckle short "Buzzin' Around" and in Paramount's "Broadway Highlights" newsreel, in which he is seen drinking a mug of beer as his initiation into The Lambs Club. In 1936, he once again joined OG, but only for a personal appearance tour.


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## foxman (Jul 15, 2013)

*I need to contact Tuco*



tuco said:


> I had posted this as "Crazy things going on in Denver", and
> the thread was closed off.
> Was told this had already been posted. I could not find
> where it had been posted.
> ...


I need to contact Tuco. If anyone knows how to contact Tuco. I need info on a dog he owned. [email protected] 405-288-6014


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