# "Pet" Quality Working Line??, Where Can I Find??



## SennaJ (Jul 7, 2012)

Hi folks!
I'm fairly new to this forum. 
My American Show Line (ASL) GSD (10+yrs old) is failing in health, significantly. I don't know how much time we have left. He's got a great temperament and trustability around children, our cat, and our rescued 20 pound female dog that are also family members in our household; but his health and nerve (anxiety) issues have been terrible. We have spent thousands+ of dollars dealing with his health issues. But I love him. I'm sure many of you know what I mean.

I know that I don't want to live without a GSD, since before him I had a GSD for 11+yrs (before she succumbed to cancer). She was my first GSD and she was from Germany (pink papers and all), but I was ignorant of the differences between German working line GSDs and ASL dogs. My preference would be, for my next GSD, to be a working line GSD as I believe they are typically bred (by reputable breeders) more to the Max von Stephanitz ideal standard for GSDs (I expect to get "blasts" from that statement, but I have no intention to offend anyone, Seriously!!). Maybe my German GSD was a "once in a lifetime" dog. But I'm hoping I can find another.

My concern is that I don't want to get an especially High Drive working line GSD. I'm not looking for a national or WUSV level competition dog or a police K9 dog. But I would like the breeding to be directed with the intent to maintain or improve the Standard. Especially with regard to "bomb proof" nerves, clear-headedness, ability to problem solve, willingness to work "with" and not just "for" (via reward or whatever) the handler. Also with regard for health (historically documented in lineage) with respect to hips, elbows, DM, etc.., and working conformation (no severe angulation or rounding spine). From what I've researched, it seems that I'm possibly seeking a combination of DDR and west German working lines. Please educate me if I'm mistaken.

I understand that training and socialization are vitally important to the control and reliability of a GSD. But I don't want to fear that if I'm not home and my wife has the dog outside (heaven forbid, but likely off-leash) with the grandkids, and a neighbor's child runs through the backyard, that the dog may chase and knock down or bite the child out of prey drive. That's not clear-headedness in my view, as the child running through the backyard is not really a "threat" or prey. I want the GSD to be devoted and protective toward his/her family and "aloof" to other unfamiliar people and dogs. I've read many definitions of "aloof" on these forums which is why I placed that in quotation marks.

I’m located in the midwest but I am willing to consider any breeder in the US (or even beyond if necessary). I believe that an experienced breeder is better able to pick the dog with the correct temperament for my circumstances. I would like to visit the prospective dog prior to purchase but I understand that many variables affect the limited “window” of time that my wife and I would have to interact with and assess a dog.

As a likely controversial twist, I would prefer a Black/Tan, bicolor, or possibly a black sable dog. Please don't harshly disrespect me for having a preference for appearance. I've read many threads that state we should all be color blind. But its obvious that many of us have preferences in appearance. I've listed mine, only hoping that it is possible. Forgive me if you will.

This thread is meant as an intro to stimulate response, for breeder recommendations, and not intended to produce keyboard imprints on the foreheads of those who fell asleep reading my long-winded discourse. Of course I'm happy to provide more details if it would favorably affect recommendations.

Thanks in advance for your advice !!


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## vom Eisenherz (Feb 13, 2012)

The problem is not in what you want; the problem is in many/most breeders' definition of "pet" quality. "Pet homes" are often where pups that don't cut the mustard temperamentally end up. My take on it is that the *best* pups should be in pet homes- these are the dogs you trust your family with. Find a breeder who thinks like you do and the rest will follow. 

My two cents, fwiw.


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## Natural Beauty Farm (Jun 20, 2011)

My pup is everything you want. Bred by a great kennel and picked out for me by them. She is a working pet, so I don't know what you really mean by "pet quality". If its a discounted price, that usually means faults. 
Socialization will teach a dog that a neighbors kid is not prey.
Training will keep control, I had 8yr olds that could give my dog commands and she would obey.

Expect to pay $1500, for a domestic or $2000 for a foreign dog with shipping. Anything less would raise red flags to me and anything much more would need justification.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

vom Eisenherz said:


> "Pet homes" are often where pups that don't cut the mustard temperamentally end up.


I'd have to disagree with this one. Many times it's the lower drive pups that end up in pet homes or the pup that doesn't bark or the pup that doesn't bite. All of which make the pup much more suitable to a pet home than a working home. A lot of the better breeders don't have poor temperament pups, but pups that aren't going to make the best sport dog do pop up in most litters.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

As for the OP looking for a good pet, definitely look at the quality workingline breeders and ask for a lower drive pup. Be very up front in what you are looking for so they can match you up with the best pup for your needs.

As you live in the midwest, the first breeder I would look at is :: BILL KULLA DOG TRAINING ::


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## SennaJ (Jul 7, 2012)

vom Eisenherz said:


> The problem is not in what you want; the problem is in many/most breeders' definition of "pet" quality. "Pet homes" are often where pups that don't cut the mustard temperamentally end up. My take on it is that the *best* pups should be in pet homes- these are the dogs you trust your family with. Find a breeder who thinks like you do and the rest will follow.
> 
> My two cents, fwiw.


Thanks for the reply. I've read a similar thought on this website concerning the "best pups should be in pet homes..." I hope that the following quote is adequately referenced:

* #29 (permalink)
qbchottu
Elite Member
(Quote copied from germanshepherds.com)


If you don't mind, I'll post what I posted elsewhere so others can possibly benefit or chime in as well:

A "pet" quality puppy has to do more than any other type of dog. He needs to be good with children, with the mailman, get along with other dogs and cats, control himself around the dinner table, provide companionship and serves as a partner. A pet should be no different than a show dog or working dog. A good dog is a good dog no matter his purpose. The end purpose should not deter you from going after the BEST puppy you can find for your home...just because the puppy is a pet does not mean he needs to come from a BYB.

LOOKING at a puppy tells you nothing about his health. You cannot see his GENETICS by looking at him. That's why you need solid evidence about the reliability of the puppy. What are the health certifications for the sire and dam? What was the goal of the breeding? Were they breeding to make a quick buck or to IMPROVE the breed by producing something better with this breeding? Are there pedigrees going back for generations so you can trace inbreeding/linebreeding? Are the parents/grandparents/great-grandparents hip/elbow certified? Were the ancestors shown and worked? What evidence is there that this puppy is healthy? Someone's word is not good enough when they are trying to make a sale. You need to have proof because every puppy is the best puppy when a breeder is trying to make a sale 

What if the puppy starts to get elbow or hip dysplasia? What if he develops DM? What if he has severe aggression issues? What if he is a fear biter? What if he is a submissive urinator? What if he has terrible allergies? GSDs are prone to the following (and MORE) health conditions: hip/elbow issues, bloat, DM, fistulas, digestive issues, allergies, skin problems, cancers like hemangiosarcomas etc. The list is endless. 

Could you recommend a breeder or breeders who are able to provide the best pup that I will be trusting my family with, as you stated?


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## SennaJ (Jul 7, 2012)

Natural Beauty Farm said:


> My pup is everything you want. Bred by a great kennel and picked out for me by them. She is a working pet, so I don't know what you really mean by "pet quality". If its a discounted price, that usually means faults.
> Socialization will teach a dog that a neighbors kid is not prey.
> Training will keep control, I had 8yr olds that could give my dog commands and she would obey.
> 
> Expect to pay $1500, for a domestic or $2000 for a foreign dog with shipping. Anything less would raise red flags to me and anything much more would need justification.




I'm not thinking about reduced price when I'm referring to "pet quality". I believe I have in mind what you are describing, "a working pet" from a great kennel. What kennel did you get your dog from? Or what kennel(s) would you recommend?


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## vom Eisenherz (Feb 13, 2012)

SennaJ said:


> Thanks for the reply. I've read a similar thought on this website concerning the "best pups should be in pet homes..." I hope that the following quote is adequately referenced:
> 
> * #29 (permalink)
> qbchottu
> ...


 Umm....errr.........sort of.  I have a different spin, one far more focused on temperament and strength and overall working ability than some of the "what ifs" listed here. There are no guarantees on living beings, and you're going to be hard-pressed to find a "real" working kennel who tests for all that stuff, though you will find many pet kennels and ASL breeders who do. It's starting to catch on due to peer-pressure and the idea that a breeder who doesn't test for all that is negligent, but the serious working breeders where (imo) you will find the strongest, best puppies are going to look at you like you're from outer space if you ask if the parents are prone to allergies, ancestors had DM, etc. How many kennels in Europe do that stuff? Not many. And you know why? Well, never mind. That's another conversation...

This is why I think rules for puppy-buying are just that- rules. Rules are made to be broken! LOL Seriously, find a breeder you connect with and one that you feel really "gets" what you are looking for/need, and talk to/visit them and their dogs. Traits are sooo subjective. Someone can be completely honest about what a dog is, and you may totally disagree. What is a gorgeous, calm dog to one is a coyote-resembling nutjob to another. You need to make sure you connect and stop trying to find perfection on the web; you can only find perfection for YOU; there is no actual perfection in any living being. 

If you were a total newbie, it might be different. But you're not; you had what you want once and you are trying to find similar (you will never replace the one you lost), and on top of that, you know what to avoid already because of the problems with your male. 

You'll be fine.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

not sure where you are in the midwest, but I'd check out Crooked Creek in Missouri.

Karen has nice dogs that are not only pets, but alot of them 'do' stuff..

www.crookedcreekranch1.com I think is the website


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

The quote from Qbchottu was very good advice. She is also very well versed in genetics and extremely active in competition with her dogs. There is nothing wrong with asking these questions. Good breeders can tell you these things about their dogs. I believe the quote was more a long the lines of finding a breeder that knows and understands the genetics of these dogs and what their going to produce, more so than how much testing they do. I also got my recent pup for well below the "red flag" price stated above, the breeder is very well respected, and my pup is amazing in all aspects thus far.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

SennaJ said:


> I'm not thinking about reduced price when I'm referring to "pet quality". I believe I have in mind what you are describing, "a working pet" from a great kennel. What kennel did you get your dog from? Or what kennel(s) would you recommend?


I very highly recommend Narnia. Strong, healthy, solid working lines. 

I told the breeder that I wanted a medium energy cuddler and that is exactly what I got. Perfect pet for an active family. 

Wish I could write more but I have movers coming in 30 minutes and I am having coffee in my PJs, LOL

German Shepherd breeder,German Shepherd puppies


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

find the breeder , not the dog. Tell them you want a sensible , balanced , healthy dog , not phrasing it as pet quality. Then you will be talking to a better breeder.

Take a look at this litter -- they are like clones of each other -- Petrie X Justified - YouTube - 

see how well these pups are socialized -- people parties weekly -- most of the adults in this group are members of a working dog club - 

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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## vom Eisenherz (Feb 13, 2012)

Ditto, Carmen. My sentiments exactly. I'm glad someone got what I was saying.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

vom Eisenherz said:


> Umm....errr.........sort of.  I have a different spin, one far more focused on temperament and strength and overall working ability than some of the "what ifs" listed here. There are no guarantees on living beings, and you're going to be hard-pressed to find a "real" working kennel who tests for all that stuff, though you will find many pet kennels and ASL breeders who do. It's starting to catch on due to peer-pressure and the idea that a breeder who doesn't test for all that is negligent, but the serious working breeders where (imo) you will find the strongest, best puppies are going to look at you like you're from outer space if you ask if the parents are prone to allergies, ancestors had DM, etc. How many kennels in Europe do that stuff? Not many. And you know why? Well, never mind. That's another conversation...


That advice was for a completely different person with an entirely different set of issues. I wrote that for someone that was convinced that buying from a BYB was just a good as from a knowledgeable breeder and was judging the quality of dog through appearances alone. Hence the reason why I listed the potential genetic problems that pop up in purebred dogs. I only recommended that the breeding dogs be hip/elbow tested. The other health issues were listed only as a precaution for that thread's OP. 
Here is the actual thread if you're interested in the background: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-puppy/183478-choosing-puppy-3.html#post2491260

To OP:
Find a trustworthy breeder, let them know your exact specifications and work with the breeder to find a good fit for your home. Sorry if I missed it, but which state are you in? We could give you recommendations based on that


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## vom Eisenherz (Feb 13, 2012)

I wasn't criticizing your post; I was just saying that it wasn't _exactly_ what I meant by what I said when it was brought up as an example.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

carmspack said:


> *find the breeder , not the dog.* Tell them you want a sensible , balanced , healthy dog , not phrasing it as pet quality. Then you will be talking to a better breeder


Think that can't be stressed enough, FIND THE BREEDER, NOT THE DOG!

If we do the hard work of locating a responsible and knowledgable breeder who's breeding the type of dogs we are looking for, either they can help you with one of their dogs or direct you to someone else who can.


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## SennaJ (Jul 7, 2012)

qbchottu:
I must apologize for any confusion I caused (to anyone) by using your quote. The context is different. I was simply impressed by your point that "a good dog is a good dog no matter his purpose", whether his or her purpose is primarily a pet / companion, a show or a working dog. So again, sorry.

I live in Missouri, but I mentioned that I'm not limiting my search for a quality breeder to my state or the midwest for that matter.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

If you are in Missouri, I would check out Karen's dogs at Crooked Creek..she is also in missouri


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

SennaJ said:


> qbchottu:
> I must apologize for any confusion I caused (to anyone) by using your quote. The context is different. I was simply impressed by your point that "a good dog is a good dog no matter his purpose", whether his or her purpose is primarily a pet / companion, a show or a working dog. So again, sorry.
> 
> I live in Missouri, but I mentioned that I'm not limiting my search for a quality breeder to my state or the midwest for that matter.


No worries at all. I was just a bit forceful and overly dramatic with that post because the OP in that thread was a little hard-headed about the idea that "physical appearance tells you what you need to know about health" and that "she doesn't need to look for the best because I just want a pet". But you are certainly right in that a good dog is a good dog and one should make sure they find the best dog suited for their purposes. I just hope nobody got the wrong idea that I expect dogs to be tested for any and all diseases. No worries and I'm glad you liked the post 

What time frame are you looking at for your pup? Within the next few months?


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Every pup is a crap shoot. However, you can better your odds with a good breeder with good dogs. On price, I lucked into an incredible dog with all of the attributes you're looking for and paid $350. I paid nearly $1000 for a female of German imports (who were titled, KKL1) and ended up with a mess!! My new pup is still below the $1500 mark, but has excellent pedigree and I don't foresee any issues as the breeder has carefully chosen their breeding stock. There's also nothing wrong with preferring the looks of one GSD over another. You have to live with it, and it's your money. I don't really care for bi-colored dogs and I won't ever have a solid black. I'm getting my first sable later this year. No one should be afraid of being blasted for stating they have a color or coat preference, but I have seen this happen.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I don't like the pup is a crap shoot philosophy, maybe in the great big out there random bred . Not in my dog-world . That is one reason to have taken a line and directed it to where I want it to go , generation after generation . Consistent, reliable, predictable . 
I have tried to help this OP with RISK REDUCTION . Now it is up to them.


Should the breeder feel that the pups are a crap shoot? 

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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## KatsMuse (Jun 5, 2012)

JakodaCD OA said:


> not sure where you are in the midwest, but I'd check out Crooked Creek in Missouri.
> 
> Karen has nice dogs that are not only pets, but alot of them 'do' stuff..
> 
> www.crookedcreekranch1.com I think is the website


I like this one as well ^....


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I believe it's realistic to know that even good dogs who have produced good pups in the past can still throw a 'bad' pup. I haven't met many breeders who don't acknowledge this. There are many variables to coming up with a good dog. Not all of them can be controlled, even by the best of breeders.


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

carmspack said:


> I don't like the pup is a crap shoot philosophy, maybe in the great big out there random bred . Not in my dog-world . That is one reason to have taken a line and directed it to where I want it to go , generation after generation . Consistent, reliable, predictable .
> I have tried to help this OP with RISK REDUCTION . Now it is up to them.
> 
> 
> ...


Ooh, good one, Carmen!! Great topic for new discussion!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Jag, of course, but that does not make it a crap shot , left to chance and luck with the odds against you from the outset.

There are many in-house breeding programs - with consistent results . Some have become part of the public access others remain in-house.
An example of the now with public access was the former Pohranicni Straze breeding program. I was privileged to have met and befriended a young man who was involved with care and training - even have pictures of the cottage they provided him to live in , as part of his wages. In the background are kennels with the experimental wolf crosses. 
That program was successful because they were laser targetted in what they wanted and were critical and bred to get only those results.
Alas the system is no longer operating and now we have some curious blends and easing off from those severely critical standards , for performance and rugged health.

An in-house example not open to public would be the guide dog attempts , we have a facility close to Ottawa with good results , and one in Quebec with what I hear good results . Look at this video of dogs from their breeding program and tell me if they are the result of a breeder approaching it with and expecting crap shot results . En vitrine | Fondation MIRA I think this is amazing . 

Good breeding . 

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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## SennaJ (Jul 7, 2012)

qbchottu said:


> No worries at all. I was just a bit forceful and overly dramatic with that post because the OP in that thread was a little hard-headed about the idea that "physical appearance tells you what you need to know about health" and that "she doesn't need to look for the best because I just want a pet". But you are certainly right in that a good dog is a good dog and one should make sure they find the best dog suited for their purposes. I just hope nobody got the wrong idea that I expect dogs to be tested for any and all diseases. No worries and I'm glad you liked the post
> 
> What time frame are you looking at for your pup? Within the next few months?



Great Thanks to you for your understanding. Again, apologies to anyone I might have mislead by offering this tremendous quote "out of context". Maybe that is the fallout of impressing people with your words. 

My time frame for my new pup or young dog is almost immediate to many months. I'm not hard pressed to get "a dog". The decision is WAY too important. I don't want to pass on an immediately available amazing dog, but I'm willing to WAIT for the RIGHT dog.


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## SennaJ (Jul 7, 2012)

Jag said:


> Every pup is a crap shoot. However, you can better your odds with a good breeder with good dogs. On price, I lucked into an incredible dog with all of the attributes you're looking for and paid $350. I paid nearly $1000 for a female of German imports (who were titled, KKL1) and ended up with a mess!! My new pup is still below the $1500 mark, but has excellent pedigree and I don't foresee any issues as the breeder has carefully chosen their breeding stock. There's also nothing wrong with preferring the looks of one GSD over another. You have to live with it, and it's your money. I don't really care for bi-colored dogs and I won't ever have a solid black. I'm getting my first sable later this year. No one should be afraid of being blasted for stating they have a color or coat preference, but I have seen this happen.



Thanks for your post. Please share your breeder information if you feel comfortable. 
Regarding GSD "appearance", from what I see in various breeding preferences, a part of the preferences to some breeders DO involve color appearance. Now again, that is the last criterion of importance to me. BUT, if all my other criteria can be met (von Stephanitz standards, working structure / conformation, bomb proof nerve base, clear-headedness, problem solving ability, desire to work for and please the handler.....EVEN a cuddler??!!....on and on) AND I could still get my preference of external appearance...then all the better!


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

carmspack said:


> Jag, of course, but that does not make it a crap shot , left to chance and luck with the odds against you from the outset.
> 
> There are many in-house breeding programs - with consistent results . Some have become part of the public access others remain in-house.
> An example of the now with public access was the former Pohranicni Straze breeding program. I was privileged to have met and befriended a young man who was involved with care and training - even have pictures of the cottage they provided him to live in , as part of his wages. In the background are kennels with the experimental wolf crosses.
> ...


I think maybe you misunderstood me. My point is that you can carefully select the dam and sire... have excellent pedigree and proven drive, workability, temperment, etc. and *still* have a chance of them throwing a pup that isn't good in one or more of those areas. If there wasn't a chance of a sub-par pup, then why have a guarantee on the pups at all? My female had good, proven imported parents. The breeder had kept pups out of previous litters that were used as SAR dogs. Yet my dog ended up with a weak head and very poor decision making. Not saying that you shouldn't look at pedigree etc. and that doesn't work in you favor.... just saying that it's possible to get a *bad* pup from very strong parents and good breeding.


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## Kev (Sep 11, 2011)

Beautiful dogs carmen 
I looked at some of your dogs in PDB and noticed that there is a foundation male in each of their pedigrees, "Kilo".
Care to explain what he brings to the table? He also has a ring title it seems


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## SennaJ (Jul 7, 2012)

I want to thank everyone for their responses to my original question. I've learned a lot. 
As an update, I've been in touch with Dari at Van Den Heuvel K9 recently. She has been outstanding to work with. We have spoken numerous times (at length) on the phone. She has been doing extensive evaluations and temperament testing on her current litter. I told her I was willing to wait for subsequent litters for her to find the right dog for me and my family situation. She eventually called and stated she was whole-heartedly confident that she has the right dog for me now. And elucidated all her reasons clearly. I'm honoring the admonitions of many, to let the experienced breeder pick the right pup. I also remained completely color-blind with regard to coat color. I put that last on the list of my criteria and was able to leave it there.
I'm very excited and I can't give enough praise to Dari. She's a great communicator. What a pleasure she has made out of this process. 

Thanks to all of you for your valued input and advice!!


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## vom Eisenherz (Feb 13, 2012)

I'm glad Dari is well enough to be back at it. Things weren't so rosy for a while there.


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## deldridge72 (Oct 25, 2011)

SennaJ There are several good breeders of Working Shepherds in the Show-Me state.


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## SennaJ (Jul 7, 2012)

vom Eisenherz said:


> I'm glad Dari is well enough to be back at it. Things weren't so rosy for a while there.



I'm happy to read of your support for her! I don't know the history to which you are referring, but from my interactions with her I could not be more pleased and / or satisfied!


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## SennaJ (Jul 7, 2012)

deldridge72 said:


> SennaJ There are several good breeders of Working Shepherds in the Show-Me state.


Thanks for your post. Do you feel comfortable sharing your list? Other readers may find that helpful.

As for me, I'm going to the next phase, concerning finding excellent trainers that are focused on (primarily) reward-based training as opposed to heavily compulsion-based training. I feel that my new puppy will have drives that I can direct and reinforce / shape and keep the pup / young dog happy, energized, and optimally motivated in her work. But I'm young (in regard to experience) in this endeavor and want to have professional guidance that I can respect and trust for the best welfare of my dog's attitude and temperament.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

To the OP.. they have good bloodlines. My pup has ancestors from there..


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## deldridge72 (Oct 25, 2011)

One of the best Obedience Trainers in the state is north of Columbia-an experienced show line breeder/former exhibitor she takes all dog breeds-one of the few willingly and knowledgeable to take on all problem behaviors.
If you are thinking of Schutzhund-there three clubs around St Louis and a couple of out KC.
Also K-9 trainers in Ashland, Lebannon, Cape Girardeau, Joplin and a couple in the Springfield area.
Of course there's plenty of "pet trainers" throughout the state.


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## Alrod (Aug 4, 2012)

SennaJ said:


> As a likely controversial twist, I would prefer a Black/Tan, bicolor, or possibly a black sable dog. Please don't harshly disrespect me for having a preference for appearance. I've read many threads that state we should all be color blind. But its obvious that many of us have preferences in appearance. I've listed mine, only hoping that it is possible. Forgive me if you will.


I really don't believe that anyone should have to be apologetic about an appearance preference. It's human nature. 

Now the flip side of that is our choices need to be wrapped around common sense. if you find the most beautiful dog you have ever seen, but it has none of the characteristics or attributes you are looking for, then we probably need to keep looking. 

I am sorry but some dogs are just butt ugly with a face only a mother could love. If that makes me a bad person for saying that, then so be it. I still love all animals. Some are just nicer looking than others. Then again all things are relative. My beautiful might be someone else's "butt ugly"


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