# Looking for pup, met a backyard breeder... would love advice



## SSage (Jan 4, 2015)

Hi all, very quick background. Grew up with 2 German Shepherds from birth to about 20 years old. I'm 33 now, just bought a house and looking to own my first dog. 

Convinced the wife to go with a GS and she's been scouring the internet for pups... rescue mostly, but she looked on Craigslist and found a posting relatively close to us. We went to look at the pups yesterday. The owner has 4 grown GS's, he seems to be a big dog enthusiast, says he's owned and helped train many. The pups are all about 6 weeks right now and he is charging $300 per dog. The pups were an accident he says, as he wasn't intending on having this happen, but the dad got outside one day where the mom was and there you have it. The pups aren't vaccinated (he said he wouldn't even vaccinate until 10 weeks old, but I've read in general you should get started between 6-8 weeks) and it doesn't sound like he's had them in for any medical exams/tests. If I were to buy one we would likely have its shots started in the next week. He isn't trying to pawn them off as fast as possible, he even said he could hold them for however long we want, or if we couldn't keep it at any time just bring it back to him. But since they don't have their shots we would probably want to take one within the next couple weeks to get that started. 

I've been consulting my uncles who have owned many large dogs but not GS's. They tell me it's very important to obtain documentation on hip dysplacia of the parents. The owner tells us none of his other adult dogs (oldest being 4 and 5 years old) have any signs of hip dysplasia, but since he's not really an "official" breeder I'd say we're likely not going to have any real documentation. 

Is there anything I should know about buying from a "backyard breeder" like this (although he really didn't even mean to be a breeder right now, and apparently he doesn't do it that often... it just so happened that way)? Any advice on this specific situation?

Thanks!
Steve


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Don't do it! 

They could turn out to have the best temperament, be the healthiest puppies ever. They could live to 16 with no issues, and save people from burning buildings. Or they could be sickly, have one of the MANY (hips are nothing compared to some of the other stuff) congenital GSD issues (heart, eyes, spine, hips, elbows, GI system, kidneys, etc) and poor temperament and you are stuck with all of that (and you will love the dog dearly regardless) and the costs to you and the dog for however long they are with you. Or something in between! 

BUT - in this case, you would be giving someone who couldn't control their intact animals money for making a mistake. And possibly even encouraging that mistake to happen again. That's just something that isn't right to dogs. 

That's a risk that people also take when we rescue, and I will take that risk every time to hand pick a dog that I want from the many available who need a home. But my money is not going directly to a person who failed their dogs, and the breed, and is going to a rescue org or shelter that I carefully research. 

Good for you for not grabbing a puppy that day - that takes a kind of restraint that is difficult, and you did it.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Adding this: http://www.hsvma.org/assets/pdfs/guide-to-congenital-and-heritable-disorders.pdf
GUIDE TO CONGENITAL AND 
HERITABLE DISORDERS IN DOGS
Includes Genetic Predisposition to Diseases 
Special thanks to W. Jean Dodds
, D.V.M. for researching and 
compiling the information contained 
in this guide. Dr. Dodds is a 
world-renowned vaccine research scientist with expertise in 
hematology, immunology, endocrinology and nutrition.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

There's no such thing as an "official" breeder. If he bred a litter, accidentally or otherwise, he's a breeder. I'm not one that will insist that accidents NEVER happen; I've known top quality breeders that have had accidental litters. However that does not mean he's off the hook as far as health testing and everything else. In many places it costs less than the price for one puppy to have a dog OFA'd for hip and elbow dysplasia. The breeder saying the dogs don't "show signs" of HD shows his ignorance. Dogs can limp and show pain or lameness for dozens of reasons besides HD and dogs that actually have HD may never show outward symptoms until they are old. HD can *only* be ruled in or out by an x-ray, not a physical evaluation.

If you want to take the risk as far as knowing nothing about the health or pedigree, that's your choice. After all the pups are born and deserve homes. I can't say whether I would or wouldn't without gauging their temperaments. However if this is really a decent breeder he would not be selling an oops litter with no health information. The pups should be more like a rescue or shelter price (or free, but advertized with a fee so as not to attract the type of people hoarding free dogs!). JMHO


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## Debanneball (Aug 28, 2014)

SSage, read and re-read these posts, then pass, sorry... I wish I had read them before getting Stella, at least I would have known what I was getting into...


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## pyratemom (Jan 10, 2011)

Steve, please take all this information to heart. Then, if you do decide to get an unknown puppy be ready. You may or may not have problems. There certainly are a lot that can really cause the pup problems or pain or both but maybe contacting a rescue near you would be better. They know the dogs they are fostering and can give you information regarding backgrounds, health, temperament, etc. Good breeders do not advertise on Craig's list, or on posters on telephone posts. They research potential buyers and make sure their pups go to good homes. This guy may or may not have good pups. You can ask which vet he uses for his adult dogs, assuming he does have a regular vet, and contact that vet perhaps if you are fixed on getting one of this pups and the vet may give you information on the sire or dam as far as vaccinations or other potential problems. Good luck on your choice.


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## sehrgutcsg (Feb 7, 2014)

I like post # 2 - 3, not because who they are, becasue they speak the truth from experince. Now, I was where you are now, a year ago. Accident, no, heck no, I don't think so, don't insult me I'm a grown man. 10 weeks for the first vaccines.. Nope again cowboy !

Six weeks Killed Parvo, 9 weeks 6 - 7 in 1 and so on, parvo is nasty. Let's ask about the wife and the budget > ? Can you afford to lay out $1500.00 now plus all the related expenses or wil you just factor that into vet bills in 12 months. You could do a cash advance and get a better dog, much better. My dog is great, but.... No history, on nothin... You want an accident or a great animal > ? Stick arond here and find out who breeds dogs correctly, one or two states from you, make an agreement, learn things have changes and advancments have occurred. Peronally two people come to mind... Selzer and Martimchick, they always have opinons, strong opinions, ask them and a few others what $ you might do.. don't make a dreaded un-replacable mistake and cheap out.. "Homie don't play that."


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I can't say that backyard breeders have horrible dogs, Sabi was one in a million. But she cost me a ton in vet bills over the years. She was not thriving as a pup. Her spay surgery ended up costing $1000 and then she almost died from the anesthesia, another big bill. She had skin issues, joint issues and allergies. Ultimately she died from one of the most heartbreaking disorders I know of. One that is genetic and widespread.
IF you decide on this pup, do so with your eyes wide open. Your cheap pup may cost you a small fortune. You may end up with a severely unstable temperament. Are you prepared, and is your wife prepared to commit to a dog that may never be able to be around other people? Are you prepared to have a vet, behaviorist, trainer, nutritionist on speed dial? Do you have the available cash resources to deal with potential issues? If the answer is no, pass on this and move on. Save yourselves the heartache.


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## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

no craigslist breeded unless they

1. have an AKC registration for both parents

2. have a very detailed contract on health guarantee and limitations

3. have good reccomandations/reviews somewhere that wasn't posted by them.


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## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

if they don't have all three they are fooling you into buying one of their oops litter dogs. don't fall for it. take one for free to give a dog a home but don't pay money for it. that only encourages more oops litters.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I think $300 is a "rescue price" - but at the same time, he has NO investment in this litter other than food....and probably does not feed high quality food either.

I can cite the experiences of 2 people I know.

1. Cheryl bought a GSD puppy from the Sunday paper - people had a website citing "family pets" as a goal. Both parents on premises. I met her when the dog was a puppy - 5 months maybe - on a forum, looking for advice as to helping the pup's ears stand. Her vet was my ex, so after a phone conversation or two, she felt comfortable in having me to her home to show her how to tape ears. The temperament on the pup was poor - he was timid, he was quick to snap at people who tried to pet him, and his movement made me very suspicious as to his hips/elbows... Fast forward a few months ~ he has now bitten 2 guests in her home, his ears were set oddly and although not folding they are offset...he is very skinny, he is starting to throw up alot when he eats and he is lame....he has been x-rayed, his hips are bad, his elbows are bad and I suspect EPI. He progresses on a downward slide.....with his temperament being the most obvious problem as he has now bitten children in her home. He is euthanized at about 15 months old and his owner is heart broken.

2. Sheri and Steve buy an impulse puppy in pet store. Bad hips, bad elbows, surgical bills. Sweet dog and well loved, but does not thrive. Allergies so bad that regular vets are no use, and visits to a specialist 150 miles away is a regular trip. A second puppy is sought - they call me (12 years ago!!!) and I had nothing available. They buy a puppy from the Sunday paper. Again, problems. Timid but not fear aggressive. ACLs on this one. They estimate nearly $30K in vet bills over the last 12 years. 

The first lady has a coated male from my G litter, now 7 + years old and other than routine vet work, no problems, great family dog. The second couple came back to me 12 years after talking to me for a puppy and recently took home an L litter female. The price of these puppies is much higher than the initial pups, but is only a small fraction of the vet bills incurred with the newspaper/pet store puppies......and the temperament is impeccable as they saw from repeated viewings of the puppies dams and other relations.

Lee


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Someone stated that the price they are asking should be comparable to the cost of a shelter or rescue dog, which it is. I now have 3 german shepherds that I don't have a clue where they came from. Wonderful temperaments, strong nerves and very stable. Some say it's luck and maybe it is or maybe it's not. I do have a golden that has severe hip dysplasia from a breeder with no dysplasia in the lines--very surprising but it happens and it costed thousands of dollars. Nothing is guaranteed. Really no matter what you do its hit or miss. I don't support back yard breeders but where are the pups going to end up? In the shelter? Euthanised? It's just such a bad place for dogs to be in, it's not their fault they were born. I do like the idea that they offered to take the dog back if it doesn't work, you don't get that often from "backyard breeders". It's a tough decision and I commend you for doing research.


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## SSage (Jan 4, 2015)

Thank you everyone for the responses. I greatly respect all your thoughts. We were prepared to rescue a dog before we saw this litter on Craigslist. Here's a question because my wife thinks this is the exact same situation as rescuing (other than a higher price...)

At some (most?) rescue kennels I imagine they are provided a bit more medical care than what this breeder has done (****, I guess if ANY care is provided at a rescue then it's more than what this guy has done), correct?

At the rescue kennels, is it really that much more likely to have pedigree and/or health screening information on the dogs, or do you often not really know what you're getting with your rescue dog?

If this breeder hasn't had the pups into the vet to have their heart listened to, is it worth it to draft a contract with him that the transaction is contingent upon further vet checkups and if anything major is found wrong then we can return it for refund? (He stated we could return the dog to him at any time... however he did not mention a refund and I doubt he would)

To be honest, I'd rather pay $1,000-$1,500 to get a dog where I'm guaranteed of a considerable risk reduction on average of problems with the breed. Not only for potential savings down the road but for the peace of mind and dealing with a legitimate business. But my uncle who has bought many rotties from a professional breeders has told me it's very hard to get on the inside and have them trust you to take their dogs. I don't know if I want that hassle right now if that's the case.

Thanks again I enjoy all the discussion.
Steve


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

At a rescue, the puppy will be vaccinated and spay/neutered.

Dr. Dodds new vaccine guidelines have initial vaccines at 10 weeks so that is not out of line. However, all good breeders will have a vet check prior to the puppies going to their new homes. All good breeders are going to have their breeding stock health checked and verified. I don't think it's reasonable to think you'll get a refund if you return a puppy. Most breeders have the right of first refusal to buy a dog back in case something happens that you can't keep them. Or have in the contract for a replacement if there is a health issue. But, IMO, if you just return the dog you shouldn't expect money.

AND, it is illegal in most states to sell a puppy before 8 weeks.

Your uncle is incorrect. Contact good breeders. Meet the dogs. Get on their list for a litter. It really isn't that hard unless you are a whack job that makes their skin crawl.

Having said all that...what exactly is it you are looking for in a pup? Working line are roughly 1500. Show lines are more. Don't mistake "working line" for inability to be a good pet. Mine is laying next to me right now.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

At a rescue, your $300 adoption fee pays for full vaccinations, vet check, heartworm test, and a neuter/spay. The rescue is barely breaking even. This guy is making a profit off his "mistake" and isn't even bothering to do basic veterinary care. I am also extremely skeptical that this was a mistake.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

SSage said:


> Thank you everyone for the responses. I greatly respect all your thoughts. We were prepared to rescue a dog before we saw this litter on Craigslist. Here's a question because my wife thinks this is the exact same situation as rescuing (other than a higher price...)
> 
> At some (most?) rescue kennels I imagine they are provided a bit more medical care than what this breeder has done (****, I guess if ANY care is provided at a rescue then it's more than what this guy has done), correct?
> 
> ...


Your Uncle is NOT misinformed. I was turned away by any number of breeders because I was not a sport or show home. Some were actually really rude about it. It isn't about them trusting you so much as ego and attitude, the "My dogs are better then pets" mentality. Plus with all the breeders out there, the task of finding the right one is somewhat daunting. It helps to have some guidance.
However, I have a few options at this point thanks to guidance from the forum members here, and a few tips from friends. Because my priority was health, I found the list narrowed quickly and some breeders who's dogs I really liked got knocked out of the running quickly. This breed has any number of health issues that IMO should be monitored by breeders. Also longevity, the dogs of 20 years ago lived 13-15 years commonly and now we are losing them at 10-12. Temperament is something else that has taken a dive in the last decade or so, with a handful of dedicated breeders trying frantically to hang on. The beloved go anywhere dogs of my childhood are few and far between today. It seems some breeders have sacrificed the easy nature in favor of the work ability, when the reality is this breed can have both. I want a dog that will work all day and come home to hang with friends and family or kick back on the couch for a quiet movie night. There are breeders that produce them, you just need to dig.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Emoore said:


> At a rescue, your $300 adoption fee pays for full vaccinations, vet check, heartworm test, and a neuter/spay. The rescue is barely breaking even. This guy is making a profit off his "mistake" and isn't even bothering to do basic veterinary care.


^ This. These pups are not equivalent to getting a dog through a rescue. He isn't even planning to take the pups in for a vet check before selling them? Big red flag! 

I would walk away and go with your first plan and put in an application with a reputable rescue.


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## joneser (Jun 9, 2014)

Personal experience: I've known nothing about any of the dogs that I've adopted/rescued (3 so far). Unfortunately it's a crapshoot: plenty of posts and opinions on "adopt adopt adopt." Plenty of posts and opinions on "pay for a quality puppy to help ensure the quality of the breed and long-term health." 
The biggest thing for me, I guess, is what level is your commitment? I think it's awesome that quality breeders will take a puppy back if there are significant health issues...but from the dog's perspective, they're losing their home, going back to a breeder, to what end? 
My opinion only: if you're getting a puppy, and not planning to start your own breeding lines, then evaluate just as you would a rescue. And in a year, 2 years, 5 years, or hopefully 10-15, you make the right choice at the right time for whatever situation comes along. We lose our dogs to so many things, all you can do is prepare and commit, and assess along the way. 

Example: my previous dog (great dane) bought from BYB for $300. Blew both ACL's by 1, made it to 9. No insurance, no stomach tack, no bloat. 
A coworker (former boss) heeds my warnings, buys a $2500 purebred from a breeder with 30 years experience. No tack, no insurance...he's bloated 4 times, with torsion the first time and now he's tacked. So far stifles look good. The breeder is baffled, his half brother is also local and has shown no signs. 

Breeding takes you part way, life dictates the rest. 

Either way, I'm still going to put a plug in: get insurance!


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

SSage said:


> At some (most?) rescue kennels I imagine they are provided a bit more medical care than what this breeder has done (****, I guess if ANY care is provided at a rescue then it's more than what this guy has done), correct?
> 
> At the rescue kennels, is it really that much more likely to have pedigree and/or health screening information on the dogs, or do you often not really know what you're getting with your rescue dog?


Even your county shelter will provide a vet check, vaccines, spay/neuter, and will give you a voucher to take the dog for an additional vet check after you bring them home. That's easily $300 right there, if not more. This guy is not comparable to a rescue with what he is providing, and I don't see why he should make probably more than a grand on an "accident." Usually if you make an accident, you are responsible for making things right. You don't profit from it. I also doubt this was an accident- when I was a kid we bought a bichon puppy from the newspaper whose "breeder" said she was only going to breed the dogs once. The puppy died at age 3, and the breeder bred the same pair of dogs again. People lie. All the time. It doesn't matter what sort of agreement you have with this person, they're still a random guy from Craigslist and they can feed you whatever you want to eat. If they agreed to refund or replace and then won't pony up, what can you do? Sue them? It's probably not even worth it. The best way to get a healthy pup is to get one from healthy, proven parents, not with a warranty.

I have seen papered dogs come through breed rescue. It is not unheard of. OFA is probably very uncommon though. One thing to keep in mind is that if you rescue an adult, very severe issues will often be apparent already. A lot of sickly puppies are just euthanized before their first year and never get a chance. My rescue is healthy except for some mild HD that doesn't affect her much. 

I think it would make much more sense for you to look into reputable breeders if health and temperament matter to you. If you just want to help a dog, then rescue or private rehome.


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## sehrgutcsg (Feb 7, 2014)

.


SSage said:


> Thank you everyone for the responses. I greatly respect all your thoughts. To be honest, I'd rather pay $1,000-$1,500 to get a dog where I'm guaranteed of a considerable risk reduction on average of problems with the breed. Not only for potential savings down the road but for the peace of mind and dealing with a legitimate business. But my uncle who has bought many rotties from a professional breeders has told me it's very hard to get on the inside and have them trust you to take their dogs. I don't know if I want that hassle right now if that's the case.
> 
> Thanks again I enjoy all the discussion.
> Steve



You're uncle has given up the ship before the Pirates stepped on board the vessel. If you're going to listen to that advice, maybe a rescue is better suited, not to put you down. A breeder, a great breeder will make you jump through hoops, that's because they laid out $40,000 in cash for what you want for $1500.00, you would too. Answer each question as a driven handler, professional, I have been there and done that, rinse and repeat is easy as pie. Many people have BSed their way to the top, and found out that walking the walk, beats talking the talk, capish.. Nobody here has said one bad word about your intentions. Let me ask, do you have small chldren > ? Once the dog has be paid for($1500.00) do you have $600+ for a crates small puppy + adult and misc. items > ? This dog will be 65+ lbs. at 5 - 6 months. Once that is done, do you have $500 for shots and vet visits for the first 6 months of wormings, shots, giarda, coccidia, rabies.. ect. Do you have training time set aside, a working team to watch and walk this dog every 5 hours or less, (help) > ?

Now training.. Again... money money money.. Go get them Tiger and answer every question as if you can walk on water, then learn how to walk on water later... Best of luck, I said my peace.. Happy new year and congrats. on the new house, you've worked 20 years to purchase... !!!!!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

OP - where are you located and how far are you willing to travel to meet breeders? Are you willing to ship a puppy in?


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