# Wolf dog hybrid stories



## BARBIElovesSAILOR

I was watching a show today about people who owned wolf dogs and found it so interesting. I believe there are people on this forum who have owned or own a wolf dog hybrid.

Would like to open up a discussion for the following:

Why is it a good or bad idea to crossbreed wolves and domesticated dogs?

If you have owned a wolf hybrid, what do you wish people would know before they jump into owning one as well?

If you have owned a wolf hybrid, what have you learned, and would you do it again?

And finally, you may share any happily ever after stories about wolf hybrids you have had or know of, and any stories where things turned bad with a wolf hybrid.

You do not have to answer every question I posted unless you want, just whatever you feel comfortable with 

Thank you for your responses!


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## dogma13

A long time ago I had a 3/4 gsd 1/4 red wolf.She was a wonderful girl,one of the best dogs I've ever had the pleasure of sharing my life with.Excellent house manners and neutral with guests,but very territorial regarding her home and yard.Nobody was getting in unless they were invited.She would have none of learning obedience commands except for recall.But she was so smart she just seemed to understand what behavior was required in various circumstances.Loved that girl.
For those who aren't familiar with red wolves,they are smallish wolves that live in some southern states and Mexico.


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## Susan_GSD_mom

In the past I shared my life with a number of wolf/shepherd crosses, some lower wolf content, some higher. 

They are not technically hybrids, because they can produce offspring--hybrids pretty much do not, except in very rare instances.

Positive things: They are the smartest (very high intelligence) canines I have ever had the privilege of sharing my life with. They seem to actually reason things out, and observe and imitate. They have a much higher developed sense of humor than any others I have known. They play all of their lives. They are a combination of independent thinking, and yet highly dependent and bonded with 'pack' members, both human and canine. They can be highly territorial and protective, or shy and needing protection, depending on percentage of wolf blood. The males I had did not have to be neutered. Wolves' testosterone levels don't come up unless they are with a female in heat, and my wolf shepherds were that way. The bond they develop with you is unequaled, even as compared with our GSDs. Keep in mind that all of mine were a cross between GSD and wolf, less independent than husky and malamute crosses. All of the qualities I love in GSDs were magnified in the wolf/GSD cross.

Negative things: You MUST be willing to change your life to care for these animals. You MUST. Caretakers for wolfdogs *must* be willing to put the animals' welfare above your own. Much more so than even with dogs. Part of the reason for that is the prejudice against them--no errors can be made, they cannot even put a nail scratch on another human, or off comes their head to be sent for rabies testing, even if you have them vaccinated. Your vacations will be spent at home with your wolfdogs. Obedience is an agreement you make with them. First they must trust you--trust is vital--then they make the decision to do what you ask of them. One that I had could have competed in ob, he was that good. Others would hesitate enough as if deciding whether they wanted to do what I asked, but 95% of the time they would. You MUST be an assertive person, or they will run all over you. 

Do the positives outweigh the negatives? They did for me, but then my life is pretty simple and I like being at home. Would I have another? In a hot second, but the State of Michigan chose to legislate against them. I love my GSDs, all of them, but the level of relationship with the wolfdogs was on such a different plane. Hard to explain.

Do I agree with captive wolves, kept only to breed wolfdogs? Umm, no. Knowing the pure wolf's character, that's a terrible life to give them. That's why I eventually turned to rescue wolfdogs rather than purchasing puppies. I also agree 1000% percent that a wolfdog is NOT for everyone, NEVER for the casual dog owner.

Susan


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR

Was she a rescue or was she purchased from a breeder?


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## Girl_Loves_Hydraulics

I don't know any wolf crosses, but I do know a Grey Wolf out by my way.

It's definitely not a dog. First off, she is MASSIVE. I'm 5'5", and her head is pretty much level with my bosom. Her mannerisms are very different. When I first came over there, she just watched me. I'll tell ya, being under the gaze of a true predator can be a bit unnerving. She is legal in this city, as the owner has a permit and a bunch of other stuff. But as others had mentioned, he said it wasn't easy. Constantly have to be aware of her and what is going on. She was territorial, and very protective of her "pack".


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## Pax8

Susan_GSD_mom said:


> In the past I shared my life with a number of wolf/shepherd crosses, some lower wolf content, some higher.
> 
> They are not technically hybrids, because they can produce offspring--hybrids pretty much do not, except in very rare instances.
> 
> Positive things: They are the smartest (very high intelligence) canines I have ever had the privilege of sharing my life with. They seem to actually reason things out, and observe and imitate. They have a much higher developed sense of humor than any others I have known. They play all of their lives. They are a combination of independent thinking, and yet highly dependent and bonded with 'pack' members, both human and canine. They can be highly territorial and protective, or shy and needing protection, depending on percentage of wolf blood. The males I had did not have to be neutered. Wolves' testosterone levels don't come up unless they are with a female in heat, and my wolf shepherds were that way. The bond they develop with you is unequaled, even as compared with our GSDs. Keep in mind that all of mine were a cross between GSD and wolf, less independent than husky and malamute crosses. All of the qualities I love in GSDs were magnified in the wolf/GSD cross.
> 
> Negative things: You MUST be willing to change your life to care for these animals. You MUST. Caretakers for wolfdogs *must* be willing to put the animals' welfare above your own. Much more so than even with dogs. Part of the reason for that is the prejudice against them--no errors can be made, they cannot even put a nail scratch on another human, or off comes their head to be sent for rabies testing, even if you have them vaccinated. Your vacations will be spent at home with your wolfdogs. Obedience is an agreement you make with them. First they must trust you--trust is vital--then they make the decision to do what you ask of them. One that I had could have competed in ob, he was that good. Others would hesitate enough as if deciding whether they wanted to do what I asked, but 95% of the time they would. You MUST be an assertive person, or they will run all over you.
> 
> Do the positives outweigh the negatives? They did for me, but then my life is pretty simple and I like being at home. Would I have another? In a hot second, but the State of Michigan chose to legislate against them. I love my GSDs, all of them, but the level of relationship with the wolfdogs was on such a different plane. Hard to explain.
> 
> Do I agree with captive wolves, kept only to breed wolfdogs? Umm, no. Knowing the pure wolf's character, that's a terrible life to give them. That's why I eventually turned to rescue wolfdogs rather than purchasing puppies. I also agree 1000% percent that a wolfdog is NOT for everyone, NEVER for the casual dog owner.
> 
> Susan


Oh gosh, so many experiences with these animals. I was a summer volunteer with a wolf and wolfdog sanctuary out by San Marcos for about five years so I've worked quite a lot with these animals of all crosses, temperaments, and backgrounds. I'll have to post full stories after I get back from agility this evening, but in general I agree wholeheartedly with what Susan has posted. Her pros/cons for wolf/GSD crosses are entirely accurate in my experience. They were always fun to work with. 

The full wolves themselves and the other crosses the got in (wolf/husky, wolf/malamute, even had a wolf/Berner? of some kind. It was enormous and tri-colored) are a bit different and each one has its own personality and quirks. The BULK of my learning about canine behavior and learning theory is based on my experience at the sanctuary. Anyways, I will come back and do a full post later.


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## Stonevintage

The one I had was my "once in a lifetime". I had no bad experiences. His sire was purebred timber wolf and dam German Shepherd. We got him from a friend that was a bear and wolf biologist with the Wildlife Service in Minnesota. 

We brought him home when he was 18 days old. This, we were told was so when the eyes opened at around 21 days old we (people) were the first thing he would see and bond with. We had to feed him formula mixed with raw pounded chicken necks. That was back when chicken necks were 8 cents a pound.

The condition for adoption was that we had another dog in the house (of an approved breed) to act as a training liason for our little guy. We got a rescue female half GSD and half Am Stratfordshire Terrier. She was perfect and kept our male well grounded through the years. He lived for 13.5 happy years.

Are they for everyone? No, maybe ok for 1% of those who have owned a GSD or northern breed. You don't know what degree of wolfiness any hybrid will inherit and it doesn't really become apparent until they are mature . I've seen 25% content so wolfie they had to spend their lives in a kennel. They require a very stable routine and home environment. No kids, no commotion, constant supervision and a companion dog that is well trained and obedient. I agree with everything Susan_GSD-Mom explained in her post. 

The worst thing about wolf/hybrid law is that they are not eligible for rabies vaccination protection in case of a bite under federal law. There is no particular reason why, it's just an unknown if the vaccine would work and it's never been determined so if a bite happens to a human, they cut off the head and send it for testing.


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## Susan_GSD_mom

Pax8 said:


> Oh gosh, so many experiences with these animals. I was a summer volunteer with a wolf and wolfdog sanctuary out by San Marcos for about five years so I've worked quite a lot with these animals of all crosses, temperaments, and backgrounds. I'll have to post full stories after I get back from agility this evening, but in general I agree wholeheartedly with what Susan has posted. Her pros/cons for wolf/GSD crosses are entirely accurate in my experience. They were always fun to work with.
> 
> The full wolves themselves and the other crosses the got in (wolf/husky, wolf/malamute, even had a wolf/Berner? of some kind. It was enormous and tri-colored) are a bit different and each one has its own personality and quirks. The BULK of my learning about canine behavior and learning theory is based on my experience at the sanctuary. Anyways, I will come back and do a full post later.


 I look forward to your experiences! I love these animals!

Susan


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## Bridget

My daughter is getting ready to adopt a dog whom we believe is a wolf hybrid, so I am grateful for this thread, as I would like to know as much as possible. Thanks, Barbie, for starting it.


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## Loneforce

What ever happened to the one forum member that kept us up to date with his hybrid wolves? I remember seeing how big they were getting, and then poof no more info. You don't think the wolves ate him do ya  I think the member name was Mozul or something like that.


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## Syaoransbear

Loneforce said:


> What ever happened to the one forum member that kept us up to date with his hybrid wolves? I remember seeing how big they were getting, and then poof no more info. You don't think the wolves ate him do ya  I think the member name was Mozul or something like that.


I think Mosul just got bored of this forum or forgot about it. I believe he has 3 hybrids now. Here is his facebook if you want to see pictures.

https://www.facebook.com/danilo.schneegans?fref=nf





dogma13 said:


> A long time ago I had a 3/4 gsd 1/4 red wolf.She was a wonderful girl,one of the best dogs I've ever had the pleasure of sharing my life with.Excellent house manners and neutral with guests,but very territorial regarding her home and yard.Nobody was getting in unless they were invited.She would have none of learning obedience commands except for recall.But she was so smart she just seemed to understand what behavior was required in various circumstances.Loved that girl.
> For those who aren't familiar with red wolves,they are smallish wolves that live in some southern states and Mexico.


And also *critically endangered, *nearly facing extinction until recently. The odds that you truly had a red wolf hybrid are extremely slim. Breeders who misrepresent their animals like to use 'red wolf' as a way to lure people into buying something exotic. 



The huge, huge majority of so-called wolfdogs are NOT wolfdogs, simply misrepresented german shepherd and husky mixes. Many breeders misrepresent their animals as either wolfdogs when they are just dogs, or wolfdogs as higher contents than what they are. Some breeders don't even know they are lying because they are ignorant and only relaying what they were told about their animals from a different scam artist breeder. I am so used to it at this point that I don't believe anyone has a wolfdog until I see multiple pictures of the animal first. 

I really like wolfdogs, but I like them as wolfdogs. Not as a dog. Just like I like parrots but I don't expect mine to act like dogs. If I wanted something that was loyal, courageous, and biddable, I would not get a wolfdog. If I wanted something that was challenging and required an entire lifestyle change, I would get a wolfdog. The people who expect wolfdogs to be just like dogs are the ones who will fail. The people who get a wolfdog fully expecting it to act like a wolfdog will have good experiences.


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## Loneforce

Thanks for the info Syaoransbear I always enjoyed seeing the pictures of them growing up. FB says the link expired, but that's alright at least I know they are still around. :thumbup:


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## dogma13

Syaoransbear,it was over thirty years ago and I wasn't aware at the time!!! No way was I promoting buying and selling endangered species!!!


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## Kahrg4

There was a quote from a National Geographic article I ripped out awhile ago and saved. It was: 

_"When we keep wild animals as pets, we turn them into something for which nature has no place." _

Please do not interpret that as I hate wolf hybrids or some such nonsense. I've had friends that had them and then couldn't keep them because of laws, lack of preparedness, inability to manage, etc. 

My personal experience through my friends is that owning wolf hybrids is only for a very, Very, VERY small segment of the population. Unfortunately my friends were not those people so the wolves/dogs had to be put down. In that regard the quote rings true; there was not a place for those animals.


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## Palydyn

Many years I "rescued" a very sick wolf-husky puppy. So sick I was not sure it would make it. I cost me a fortune to finally get him healthy but it was worth every single penny. I had to bottle feed him every 2 hours, carry him around in a sling and as a result we bonded like no other animal I ever had. He turned out to be the smartest best canine I ever had. 

Susan_GSD_Mom hit it right on the head. You could not do anything in front of him you did not want him to learn how to do. He could open doors, refrigerators, cupboards anything. LOL practically everything in my house had fasteners on them to keep him out. He could get his own ice out of the ice maker so I had to turn it off. When the phone would ring he would go get it and bring it to me if I didn't get to it fast enough. 

I would say they are not for everyone - if you are part of their pack you need to provide interaction with them continually. I talked to him like you would talk to another human being and he would talk back. No they aren't quite like dogs. But can be trained as long as it does not get repetitious because they are so smart they get bored easily. And when they get bored they "invent" things to do, like eat spa covers. He saw me pick some tomatoes from the garden once and the next day he had picked them all and had them all lined up by the back door. He wasn't mean or vicious but he was very protective of the house, yard and other pets. And coyotes gave our place a wide berth. 

So would I ever get another one? I don't know. It hurt so much when I lost him it wasn't like losing another kind of pet. I can't explain it properly but it felt like losing more. It was a long time after that before I ever even thought of getting another dog.


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## llombardo

Years ago when I worked at the vet a guy came in with a huge dog that he had listed as an Alaskan Malamute. The dog was 12 years old. I didn't buy the dog was a Malamute so when the vet left the room I asked the guy right out if the dog was a wolf. He indeed was 100% wolf. The dog was raised from a pup in a home with kids and was a wonderful dog. I enjoyed meeting the dog and getting to pet him. He was one of the calmest laid back well behaved dogs that I ever saw at the vet and out and about. It was a great experience.


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## Nigel

Not a wolf, but thought it was interesting, the story behind him too. There are several videos out there with Wile e interacting with the family.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UwqUM2wuEHc


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## Palydyn

One thing I forgot to mention is that you need to find a Vet that has experience with wolf dogs. Apparently they cannot take all the medications/vaccines dogs can. One reason it cost so much to get mine healthy. Another thing is that other dogs have a strange reaction around them. They bark or howl and generally don't want to be near them. Mine anyway. Shadow was okay with other dogs but they weren't so okay with him.


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR

Nigel said:


> Not a wolf, but thought it was interesting, the story behind him too. There are several videos out there with Wile e interacting with the family.
> 
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UwqUM2wuEHc


Thank you so much for posting this.

Wile E. Coyote, is there just any other name you could give a coyote? Probably not. Haha, if I had a coyote I'd probably name it the same.

In the video, I really appreciated the man's honesty about hunting, and the reality of the traps used, and how he doesn't hunt anymore.

Great video, thank you!


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR

Palydyn said:


> One thing I forgot to mention is that you need to find a Vet that has experience with wolf dogs. Apparently they cannot take all the medications/vaccines dogs can. One reason it cost so much to get mine healthy. Another thing is that other dogs have a strange reaction around them. They bark or howl and generally don't want to be near them. Mine anyway. Shadow was okay with other dogs but they weren't so okay with him.


I would imagine a person would probably need a vet specializing in wild life, and not just a cat/dog vet...


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## Stonevintage

Palydyn said:


> One thing I forgot to mention is that you need to find a Vet that has experience with wolf dogs. Apparently they cannot take all the medications/vaccines dogs can. One reason it cost so much to get mine healthy. Another thing is that other dogs have a strange reaction around them. They bark or howl and generally don't want to be near them. Mine anyway. Shadow was okay with other dogs but they weren't so okay with him.


I never heard of that. Mine had all the vaccines and medications a normal dog would have. But that was decades ago and the medications were simpler then no doubt. 

In his life he was treated for Parvo, Heartworm and he had surgery at 10 years old to remove a 5.5 pound tumor which was luckily only attached to his spleen. My vet was amazed at the size of the tumor so he sent of to Washington State University. They were so pleased with the specimen that they paid 100% of the vet bill. No special medications though.


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## Syaoransbear

Loneforce said:


> Thanks for the info Syaoransbear I always enjoyed seeing the pictures of them growing up. FB says the link expired, but that's alright at least I know they are still around. :thumbup:


Shoot! I wonder if it only works for me because we have mutual friends. Well, he and his hybrids are all doing great . If you are really curious you can join almost any of the wolfdog facebook groups out there and search 'romeo' and his woofers will come up.




Stonevintage said:


> I never heard of that. Mine had all the vaccines and medications a normal dog would have. But that was decades ago and the medications were simpler then no doubt.
> 
> In his life he was treated for Parvo, Heartworm and he had surgery at 10 years old to remove a 5.5 pound tumor which was luckily only attached to his spleen. My vet was amazed at the size of the tumor so he sent of to Washington State University. They were so pleased with the specimen that they paid 100% of the vet bill. No special medications though.


Wolfdogs, especially higher contents, are more sensitive to some medication and anesthesia than dogs of similar sizes. For a pure wolf, you only need about half the amount of anesthesia normally used for a dog of the same size.


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## Susan_GSD_mom

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> I would imagine a person would probably need a vet specializing in wild life, and not just a cat/dog vet...


I had 3 different vets over the years when I had wolfdogs, all 3 knew what they were and had no problems with them. They all knew enough not to try the one wormer that certain dogs can't take, since they didn't know what it would do to wolfdogs (can't remember the name of it, still have a horrendous cold and my brain is frazzed). They also vaccinated them against rabies, even though the claim is that the vaccine doesn't work on wolves (not true). I did try another vet for a brief time... The wolfdog I had at that time was a rescue who had been abused. He got along with everyone he met, a bit standoffish, but no aggression. However, he leaped over the back of the bench we were sitting on in the waiting room, trying to get to the new vet, and he wasn't being friendly. My boy was on a leash and nothing happened, but I think the vet probably needed an underwear change after that. We left and did not use that vet. I don't know what it was that my wolfdog didn't like, but I respected his opinion!

Susan


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## shepherdmom

Safe Haven has two wolf mixes that they rescued from the OAS sanctuary of sorrow mess. 

They are beautiful.

Denali 











Gypsy


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## Susan_GSD_mom

shepherdmom said:


> Safe Haven has two wolf mixes that they rescued from the OAS sanctuary of sorrow mess.
> 
> They are beautiful.
> 
> Denali
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gypsy


They are so beautiful! What is it they were rescued from?

Susan


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## shepherdmom

Susan_GSD_mom said:


> They are so beautiful! What is it they were rescued from?
> 
> Susan


It is a long story. There was a rescue in Washington that went bad. Turned into a horrible mess. Google Sanctuary of Sorrow there are lots of articles. Many dogs were left crated in a huge cold warehouse for a long time. Little food no interaction. Terrible. These are some of the before they got them pictures.


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## Loneforce

I love that last picture of them both together, They are beautiful.


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## wyominggrandma

Just make sure you check with your local and state laws on keeping/owning wolf hybrids. In Wyoming, they are illegal and fish and game will come take them away.


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## shepherdmom

Loneforce said:


> I love that last picture of them both together, They are beautiful.


They have come a long way and survived so much. They were completely shut down and not eating when Safe Haven got them. Then their pen was destroyed in a horrible wind storm. 










Luckily they had dug themselves a big den in their pen and they were safe in there. 

Today they have a beautiful wolfie castle covering their den. 










and they are working on growing a plot of grass for them.


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## gsdsar

I have met wolf mixes. They are beautiful. 

I am very very strongly opposed to keeping wolves and mixes as pets. The same vehemence goes to keeping any wildlife as pets. It's wrong in my mind and no number of good happy stories will change my mind. 

I love Lions, but they should not be kept as pets. Wolves are wild animals. They are not house cats. No matter how they are raised. Wolves should she be left to the wild. Period. 

Every happy good story I hear ticks me off. Cause people read them and think they can do it. It's not something that should ever be promoted, no matter how innocently. 

Love them for what they are. Leave them where they should be. Free.


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR

Thank you for your point of view gsdsar. I'm know of some people that strongly would agree with you.


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## shepherdmom

Got to agree to a certain extent with gsdar and wyoming grandma. 

Safe Haven is a experienced rescue and they are working with a experienced wolf rescue. Many places have laws against owning them and there are good solid reasons. They are not dogs.


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## Pax8

Yay, I'm back! I'll answer Barbie's questions first and then give some of my experiences and my favorite stories. This is going to be a novel, so bear with me! 



BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> Why is it a good or bad idea to crossbreed wolves and domesticated dogs?


Wolves and dogs are different. They have very different histories, different behaviors and body language, different temperaments. Not necessarily alien to each other, but if you try to treat a wolf or the majority of wolfdogs like a dog, you're not going to have a good time. Much of the problem I see is rooted in a few issues:

-People have romantic notions about what a wolf is and almost always do not have the experience, education, or resources necessary to keep one.

-People think that having dog in the mix somehow gives them an animal that behaves like a dog, but looks like a wolf.

-People see exceptions where a wolf or wolfdog has a happy ending in a home and do not stop to think about whether it is a likely outcome for them. They go into it expecting whatever animal they pick up to be exactly like the one in the story of which they have probably only heard all its best traits and not all the struggles that family likely had to deal with.

-People are not prepared for the commitment. Even people who have had high maintenance dogs before are not prepared for the level of interaction and management you often need to do to keep a happy wolf or wolfdog.



BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> If you have owned a wolf hybrid, what do you wish people would know before they jump into owning one as well?


Anyone who successfully keeps wolfdogs know that your life revolves around that animal. Wolfdogs and wolves require lots of education, thought, and care. They require mountains of interaction, especially if you don't have other animals for them to pack with. You are pretty much restricted to what care YOU or a qualified wildlife professional (who can be few and far between) can give the animal. There's no dropping them off at doggy daycamp to tire it out, no calling the local dog trainer out to deal with a behavior issue, no visit to the local vet for care (unless they have experience with wolves/wolfdogs which is highly unlikely). For legal reasons, there are not many dog professionals who will work with wolves or wolfdogs because they are different than dealing with a dog. And even when you find someone, you have to be mindful that it isn't an uneducated person who assumes a wolf or wolfdog is just like a normal dog.

As far as care, they almost always need specialized care that many people are not prepared to provide. An apartment or rental will 100% refuse a wolfdog. So typically, you have to own your own house and property. Most wolfdogs and especially wolves are happiest with outside enclosures built to provide mental and physical stimulation. They typically don't do well on their own, so having two or three is usually healthier mentally for them which means more care and management. So that's not only providing for multiple animals, but also relandscaping and constructing an enclosure that will contain them so there are no accidents of them getting out and potentially harming the neighbor kid or that stupid teenager across the street because as Susan said a single scratch condemns the animal to death by rabies testing. And not just an eight foot fence. A decent enclosure has in ground concrete along the fence line so they don't dig out, heavy privacy fencing (usually with some sort of reinforcement, like steel cross beams). I've seen eight feet with some sort of top that slopes in to prevent climbing, though just going very tall is good too, say ten to twelve feet. Some that have more money to put into it will have the enclosure portion of their yard roofed over with chain link or steel mesh to cut off over the fence escape completely.

I guess a big thing that people don't think about is they can be EXPENSIVE. I've seen one practically gut a small house in just under two hours because they moved the couch to a different place in the living room - $19,000 in damage.

So if you want to keep them outside, there's the expense of building a proper, safe enclosure. If you want to keep them inside, they have the potential to cause a ridiculous amount of damage and usually still enjoy some specialized areas on the property.

And some, because of personality, intelligence, or temperament, just can't be kept inside because they can't live peacefully in the house. So when having the wolf or wolfdog, you have to be prepared for the possibility that you may have to build an outdoor enclosure and have little to no interaction with your pet if they are too scared/anxious/aggressive for you to handle safely. 



BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> If you have owned a wolf hybrid, what have you learned, and would you do it again?


I have not owned one myself. I have lived with some for short periods of time as I often bunked with sanctuary staff who had adopted one or more of the wolfdogs or wolves they had taken in. I also worked extensively with the other sanctuary staff caring for the various ones we had on the compound. I love them, but I would have to be in a very specific position in life to ever consider owning one. I would have to have the right property, the money and resources, the time, and the inclination to handle the potential issues and challenges. I don't think it'll ever happen because I like living in the city and I just could never subject one to city living where there is a huge social requirement of any animal and the environment itself is just a dangerous setup for a wolf or wolfdog. One tiny mistake and the animal can lose its life. In the country, you have more space and there is less chance for error with other people. But in the city where I live, people are always around, in your space, going in and out, being loud and unpredictable and rude and invasive. It would just be setting the animal up to fail.



BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> And finally, you may share any happily ever after stories about wolf hybrids you have had or know of, and any stories where things turned bad with a wolf hybrid.


And here is where I can get to some of my experiences with the sanctuary. Tres Lune, about a 45 minute to an hour drive from San Marcos out into bare country. Unfortunately shut down about 6(?) years ago due to lack of funds. But they usually had about 30 wolves/wolfdogs at any one time and assisted in quite a few rescues when wolf and wolfdog issues cropped up in the area. So I'll go by some of my best and worst experiences as well as some stories of some of my favorite residents. 

So some of my best experiences were living with the tamer wolves in some of the staff's homes. Most of them lived near the sanctuary and most had taken in one or two animals when they found ones that did well with in home living. The owner of the sanctuary kept anywhere from four to eight in his house at any one time! It was always useful to him to keep many good representatives of "house wolves" in his home because when we had one that showed potential for being a house type pet, it could be introduced to the rules and rituals of house living by his established pack. It was great spending weeks with them because they taught me a lot about proper body language (both on my part and the wolves' part!) and were great and explaining and teaching me learning theory and how they could manipulate their environment and interactions to either teach the wolves new things or discourage behavior they didn't want. Pack structure worked very well because the smartest ones would pick up things like how to, say, open a door. As those first wolves repeated the behavior, it would spread through the pack until everyone could do it. Same with behavior they didn't want. All they had to do was find one high rank pack member that would value NOT doing a behavior (say, not jumping on top of the fridge and instead getting a chicken morsel on their bed) and the other members would start imitating. I always had fun seeing the ripple effect. Teach one behavior like a paw shake to a high rank member and then see how long it took each consecutive wolf to start offering its paw in exchange for a piece of chicken. My trick depository at the sanctuary was Wici, an older female who took to me really quickly after I got there. I learned a lot about learning theory by working her with the help of staff and when we moved on to new tricks, I'd teach her something and then we'd lay bets on which one of the three to five other wolves would offer the trick first without me teaching it to them. Even the slowest ones had it down within a few days.


Let's see, Ocker was always fun when we had newbies come in. He was an ancient male we got in as an abandonment case. Vet guesstimated 17-19 yrs? He was the most pitiful thing when he first came in. We found him a small enclosure and for the longest time he ate and drank minimal amounts of food and just laid there. All the time. Just laid in a patch of grass about the middle of his enclosure for weeks. We thought he was depressed and maybe we'd go out and we'd find out he had passed. The only time he even raised his head was when some people passed and it took us the longest time (almost three weeks) to figure out why. Backpack straps. Like the little nylon straps that hang down at the bottom of the pack? Apparently he loved backpack straps and as we found out the first time he got up and actually did something, he loves the squeals people make when he grabs their backpack straps through the fence and tries to pull the bag through. The first time it happened we had a guy visiting who was leaning against the fence. I saw through the window of one of our supply houses Ocker get up, slowly crawl over to the fence where the kid was leaning, talking on his phone. Ocker very carefully caught a strap in his teeth and then just yanked the poor kid against the fence as hard as he could! Kid freaked out and yelped, slipped his pack and ran. Ocker dropped the backpack and just sat there with the widest frickin grin on his face. Old guy had a sense of humor. He would only do it if he thought you wouldn't suspect it too. We tried to replicate it by holding a backpack against the fence to see if he would come get it and he had no reaction. I had to put one on, wander down the lane, and casually lean against the fence, never acknowledging him and sure enough the sneaky guy creeped up and yanked the pack off my back!


Then we had Merry and Pippin - first ones I got to name.  They were wolf/GSD mixes with a LOT of wolf. They were from a sad situation. Woman got them as littermates to raise with her two dogs (I think a Shepherd and a Golden?) When they reached adolescence, they started getting super aggressive towards the two dogs, causing injuries and damaging the house. She ended up sticking them in several crates which they kept destroying until she got a heavy duty steel box looking crate she locked them up in. They got so stressed they chewed holes in their legs and sides. Got out one day when she went to change their water. Bowled her over and ran to the opposite side of the yard. The two dogs ran out and started barking and chasing because of all the commotion. Merry and Pippin turned and mauled them both to death. I remember her crying when we went to pick them up. She had good intentions, cared deeply about them, but just didn't have the knowledge or resources to keep them. And her dogs paid for it. They were pretty wild when they first got in. Pippin got a hold of one of the staff's wrists while being transferred to the paddock (she had kevlar pads so no punctures thank god) but he still managed to crush several bones on her wrist with one bite. After a month or so, they started to calm down. 

They had their own paddock for about a year and the next summer when I came back, Adam (the owner) was testing out keeping them in his house with his pack. They didn't stay for too long. They were extremely smart and would be sweet to the keepers they liked. Had some respect for other animals that weren't cowed by their behavior. But it seemed like any animal (or person) they felt was intimidated by their behavior, they were relentless about just bothering them. They had to be removed from a test paddock because there was a submissive wolf there they fixated on and they would take turns sneaking up behind it and yanking its tail. They would do that until the poor thing's tail was raw and bloody or until we stepped in. They also had a reputation for figuring out locks and we had to retrap them on the compound several times. Merry even figured out how to climb up to the chain link cover of his enclosure and hook his paws in the link until he could chew through the metal and squirm his way out. Then he would wander around to the paddock door and unlock the door so his brother could get out. Oh, and while we were working on figuring out what kind of containment would hold them, they decided they didn't like my work buddy. When they got out, they would sneak in windows and open doors, finding everything that smelled like him and peeing all over it. His staff bunk, his backpack, his jacket, his water mug, his spare shoes, even his lunch got pulled out of the fridge once and urinated on. They were cheeky little troublemakers. Super sweet with me. Would lay across my lap all day, lick my hands, whine at me when they wanted more attention. But if you weren't in their favor, watch out!


My last one for tonight was a bad experience. Victra. He was an enormous male, Timber/Malamute at least 175 pounds and wicked smart. He stayed in a paddock with the wolves that were not safe to handle for various reasons. He came to us from a home that had gotten him as a pet and kept him until he started prey stalking their children. Was very quiet up until we got him into his paddock. He grabbed the last staff member that was exiting by the sleeve, threw him to the ground, and tried to kill him. We got to him quick enough to separate them before there was damage. Another case where we were lucky. It was winter and the guy had several coats on. Victra had torn his way through three heavy canvas coats and badly damaged the kevlar shirt underneath. His attack was at the junction of the neck and shoulder which is why we assumed it was an attack to kill. He was only handled by experienced staff under tranqs after that. 

But I had an incident with him which happened because I didn't follow a rule, but what could have happened still chills me. We worked feeding and watering in sections. The sanctuary had four sections with about four or five paddocks each. We had our buddy system, but when feeding we didn't always work the same paddock, we just had to be working the same section. I was doing the food/water change for Victra's paddock, which is a red paddock so it had a double airlock setup. First door has a key lock on it which takes you into the first airlock. Then there's a middle door that has a deadbolt slide lock on it and leads to a second airlock that has the door into the actual paddock. The last door can be operated from the first airlock with a handle that can pull or push the door up or down to open or close it. The idea is you can go into the first airlock, close the last door, open the middle door to refill food, then close the middle door again, and reopen the last door to make it accessible to the wolves. I went in the first and for whatever reason decided I didn't feel like messing with the sliding door when the food bin was right on the other side of the middle door. I think the pull was getting kind of rusted and was getting hard for me to move. It was a stupid reason, but that's why I didn't use it. So I didn't close the last door. Just opened the middle one long enough to pull the bin through and then rebolted the mid door. I turned around and started loading up food. When I was almost done, I heard some very soft clicking and when I turned to look, Victra was at the door very carefully undoing the bolt slide. He almost had it done when he realized I had caught him. He stopped, stared hard, and just started snarling. The stare, the fact that he was a half an inch of a bolt slide from being in the same room as me, and the thought that he had apparently been waiting somewhere out there and taken an opportunity to try to unlock a door to get to me was bone chilling. That animal still gives me shivers to this day when I think about him. 

Anyways, this is a lot more typing than I thought. If anyone would like to hear more stories, let me know!


----------



## counter

My experiences with Beowulf have taught me a lot, and as much work as he has been, I think there will always be a soft spot in my heart for taking on the challenge of rescuing/adopting a wolfdog in need. My wife and I have agreed that we'll always have a GSD in the house, but I'm seriously considering focusing more on wolfdogs after these guys leave me. I've already begun studying for a future of working with wolves after my time in the military is up, and I'm willing to dedicate the rest of my life to living with, loving, and learning about wolves and wolfdogs.

Just got called out to 2 jobs, so I will write more when I return.


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## Susan_GSD_mom

Pax8, You had me laughing and smiling (until the end--yikes!), I could relate to so much of what you wrote. They certainly are teachers, aren't they? And if you are smart enough to learn what they teach, you get along well. If not, the animal ends up badly.

Just curious--you mentioned that the sancuary had to close--what happened to all of the animals?

Susan


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## Castlemaid

gsdsar said:


> I have met wolf mixes. They are beautiful.
> 
> I am very very strongly opposed to keeping wolves and mixes as pets. The same vehemence goes to keeping any wildlife as pets. It's wrong in my mind and no number of good happy stories will change my mind.
> 
> I love Lions, but they should not be kept as pets. Wolves are wild animals. They are not house cats. No matter how they are raised. Wolves should she be left to the wild. Period.
> 
> Every happy good story I hear ticks me off. Cause people read them and think they can do it. It's not something that should ever be promoted, no matter how innocently.
> 
> Love them for what they are. Leave them where they should be. Free.


Exactly!! Most people can hardly handle a house cat, or a normal, well bred, domesticated GSD. I completely agree with the view that Wolves should NOT be kept in captivity, and no-one should even think of breeding wolf-dogs. 

There is a mind-set that I call " The cult of the Wolf". People idealize the Wolf as some mystique, god-like, partially human being, and feel a need to have some of that mysticism and spirituality in their lives. How is keeping a wild animal, or half-wild animal in a cage going to do that? It destroys their essence of what they are.

It reminds me a Stallion a horse breeder friend of mine acquired once. She got it from some people who had this three year old horse running wild in their field. They knew nothing about horses. Got sucked into believing the TV/Movie/Books stories about amazing intelligence, bond to their humans, Mystique Wild Beauty of Leader of the Pack Stallions running free and wild, so they got a horse. A Foal. Three years later, no one could go near this horse. It has never been bridaled, led, handled, trained. Reality wasn't what they were led to believe. 

Same with Wolves and wolf dog mixes - If you love wolves, leave them where they were meant to belong.


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## Castlemaid

Pax, thank you for your post! Love to see a more balanced view and personal experience on the many reasons why people should not keep Wolves and wolf mixes.


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## Bridget

My trainer has had wolf hybrids for years. The first four we met were lovely dogs/animals and we were close with them. The fifth one, not so much, and she had to have him put down. I have thought about it a lot and the (uneducated) conclusion I have come to is that there is no real reason to breed them, although rescuing them, if you have the resources is fine. There are plenty of perfectly good dog breeds and if someone wants a wolfy looking dog, there are the northern breeds. I think these beautiful animals have two conflicting natures within them. I also think that at a certain time in their development they have to decide which nature is true, to become a real pet or to abandon humankind in one way or another. The ones that become pets are great and the others are sad. That is my theory, but not based in much experience.


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## Stonevintage

In my post, I mentioned that (in my opinion)maybe 1% of all people that had previously owned GSD's or Northern Breeds may be able to successfully own a wolf hybrid. But even for those, it's the luck of the draw.

I got mine in 1979 and had him until 1993. Many people were getting hybrids in the early 80's and there were huge problems, it was just a disaster. Dog World magazine in 1982 did a feature on the wolf hybrid dog with all article content showing the horrible results of unqualified people trying to raise these animals. The article stated that no one had ever succeeded in raising a hybrid in a home environment to old age. 

I submitted my story and it was published. In addition, I was contacted by several individuals and we corresponded through the years. I also began communications with one of the first wolf hybrid rescues in the United States. It was located in New Mexico. 

We were sharing experiences on raising and caring for hybrids to try to figure out why a few of us were having success when the majority were getting disastrous results. 

The conclusion we came to was all about genetic inheritance. The degree of wolfy traits inherited in any given hybrid could not be determined by the percentage of wolf to dog in the parents. That is to say, a 50% wolf hybrid could behave in a manner that 75% hybrids typically displayed. Mine was 50% (sire 100% wolf, dam 100% GSD). He only inherited traits normally displayed by those with 25% wolf content and so was able to assimilate into the stable environment we were able to provide for him. 

Initially, the negative reports were about the total untrainability of these animals. In addition, they were timid and would panic if simply taken out for a walk on a leash urinating/ defecating on the sidewalk in fear and totally incapacitated by the experience. The thought was that their senses were so acute that a city street was like Times Square on New Years Eve to them. 

Finally, to add to the mess, breeders chose dogs with more drive and more aggressive temperament to try to blend and offset this timidness and so came the aggressive hybrids with high wolf content because that is what the public wanted. Crazy.


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## Jelpy

I have a wolf hybrid I got as an adult. Curious creature. Firstly, she is NOT a dog. I hand fed her everyday and it took a year for her to warm up to me enough to let me pet her. Thing is, you can't push a wolf. They will make up their own minds and no amount of chasing them around and shrieking "I just LURVS Wolfies!" is going to help. Secondly, Wolfs take eating very seriously. very seriously. I once threw her a whole raw chicken as an experiment. She ate it in 90 seconds...I do not lie. 

Third-and this I find fascinating-when she wants attention she doesn't bark, she grunts. She will now play with me, but is really happier being petted with me on one side of the fence and her on the other. She'll spend hours happily being petted and scratched that way. If I go inside, she will just as happily play chase or tag but she doesn't want to get terribly close. 

She is beautiful, but she's a wolf. 

Jelpy


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR

Thank you pax for your stories. #1, I loove San Marcos area! I used to vacation in marble falls and San Marcos as a child. Some of the best times of my life before I moved to Colombia.

Also, I loved the stories about the ingenuity of merry and pippin! Rascals! So smart! One was trying to free the other. Wow

Also, I really enjoyed the story about the older wolf that had a backpack strap fetish. I get the mental picture of you leaning up against the fence pretending not to notice, and him grabbing the straps and coming alive for a little because he thought pulled one over on you. Haha!


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR

Jelpy said:


> I have a wolf hybrid I got as an adult. Curious creature. Firstly, she is NOT a dog. I hand fed her everyday and it took a year for her to warm up to me enough to let me pet her. Thing is, you can't push a wolf. They will make up their own minds and no amount of chasing them around and shrieking "I just LURVS Wolfies!" is going to help. Secondly, Wolfs take eating very seriously. very seriously. I once threw her a whole raw chicken as an experiment. She ate it in 90 seconds...I do not lie.
> 
> Third-and this I find fascinating-when she wants attention she doesn't bark, she grunts. She will now play with me, but is really happier being petted with me on one side of the fence and her on the other. She'll spend hours happily being petted and scratched that way. If I go inside, she will just as happily play chase or tag but she doesn't want to get terribly close.
> 
> She is beautiful, but she's a wolf.
> 
> Jelpy


How did you acquire her?


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## WateryTart

wyominggrandma said:


> Just make sure you check with your local and state laws on keeping/owning wolf hybrids. In Wyoming, they are illegal and fish and game will come take them away.


And with your insurance company. I don't have any direct experience but I was told when I called my insurance company to ask if a GSD was okay, "No pits or pit types or mixes with pit types. No Chows. No Akitas. No Rottweilers. NO WOLF HYBRIDS."


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## Jelpy

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> How did you acquire her?


I was stupid. I heard of an adult wolf dog that needed rehoming. The original owner adored-and was adored-by this wolfling but her husband had gotten a disease that more or less required constant care. 

The wolf wanted nothing to do with me at first. Not mean, just very shy and wanting her human. She was NOT happy about being rehomed and made it fairly obvious that she suspected me of burying her prior human in my backyard somewhere. That's partly why it took so long for her to decide I'm OK, I suspect. She had really bonded to that woman. 

And she is distinctly high wolf content. She's not a wolf hybrid you look at and think "Wow, is that like just a really wolfy looking malamute?" You look at her and think "wolf". She even moves differently than a dog would. 

I love her to death but she is a wolf, not a dog. 

Jelpy


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## Jelpy

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> How did you acquire her?


I was stupid. I heard of an adult wolf dog that needed rehoming. The original owner adored-and was adored-by this wolfling but her husband had gotten a disease that more or less required constant care. 

The wolf wanted nothing to do with me at first. Not mean, just very shy and wanting her human. She was NOT happy about being rehomed and made it fairly obvious that she suspected me of burying her prior human in my backyard somewhere. That's partly why it took so long for her to decide I'm OK, I suspect. She had really bonded to that woman. 

And she is distinctly high wolf content. She's not a wolf hybrid you look at and think "Wow, is that like just a really wolfy looking malamute?" You look at her and think "wolf". She even moves differently than a dog would. 

I love her to death but she is a wolf, not a dog. 

Jelpy


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## Pax8

Susan_GSD_mom said:


> Pax8, You had me laughing and smiling (until the end--yikes!), I could relate to so much of what you wrote. They certainly are teachers, aren't they? And if you are smart enough to learn what they teach, you get along well. If not, the animal ends up badly.
> 
> Just curious--you mentioned that the sancuary had to close--what happened to all of the animals?
> 
> Susan


They transferred as many as they could to other sanctuaries. Merry and Pippin got to go together which I was really happy about. Some of the very aggressive and difficult to manage ones were put down - I know for sure Victra was one along with several of his posse. But they basically started with the friendliest and then the most difficult cases that other sanctuaries could not or would not handle were destroyed.

Stonevintage - One of the things people don't seem to realize is there is a huge reason that dogs are the ones that have been living around humans for so long - they have specifically developed over tens of thousands of years to be adaptable to our lifestyle. One of the biggest factors is socialization period. Dogs have a LONG socialization period compared to wolves. And dogs have a much higher mental threshold for stress. So things that they were not used to as a puppy they are still able to habituate to fairly easily. But with wolves, their socialization period ends quickly usually by the third month in my experience and then they have an EXTREME fear period where everything strange petrifies them. It is nearly impossible to socialize a wolf to a busy himan environment (like a city) because that environment changes so much. Plus wolves are just not wired to work with us. If you've ever watched the Nova special on a dog's mind, the part about taising the wolf pups to see if they would be doglike was very familiar to me. At a certain point, the wildness just sets in and you have zero meaning to them until you earn it in adulthood. They haven't developed the focus on humans that dogs have over their development.


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## Lilie

gsdsar said:


> I have met wolf mixes. They are beautiful.
> 
> I am very very strongly opposed to keeping wolves and mixes as pets. The same vehemence goes to keeping any wildlife as pets. It's wrong in my mind and no number of good happy stories will change my mind.
> 
> I love Lions, but they should not be kept as pets. Wolves are wild animals. They are not house cats. No matter how they are raised. Wolves should she be left to the wild. Period.
> 
> Every happy good story I hear ticks me off. Cause people read them and think they can do it. It's not something that should ever be promoted, no matter how innocently.
> 
> Love them for what they are. Leave them where they should be. Free.


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## Stonevintage

Pax8 said:


> They transferred as many as they could to other sanctuaries. Merry and Pippin got to go together which I was really happy about. Some of the very aggressive and difficult to manage ones were put down - I know for sure Victra was one along with several of his posse. But they basically started with the friendliest and then the most difficult cases that other sanctuaries could not or would not handle were destroyed.
> 
> Stonevintage - One of the things people don't seem to realize is there is a huge reason that dogs are the ones that have been living around humans for so long - they have specifically developed over tens of thousands of years to be adaptable to our lifestyle. One of the biggest factors is socialization period. Dogs have a LONG socialization period compared to wolves. And dogs have a much higher mental threshold for stress. So things that they were not used to as a puppy they are still able to habituate to fairly easily. But with wolves, their socialization period ends quickly usually by the third month in my experience and then they have an EXTREME fear period where everything strange petrifies them. It is nearly impossible to socialize a wolf to a busy himan environment (like a city) because that environment changes so much. Plus wolves are just not wired to work with us. If you've ever watched the Nova special on a dog's mind, the part about taising the wolf pups to see if they would be doglike was very familiar to me. At a certain point, the wildness just sets in and you have zero meaning to them until you earn it in adulthood. They haven't developed the focus on humans that dogs have over their development.


That socialization period is why we got ours at 18 days old. His eyes opened right on schedule at 21 days. Ours had no fear period at any point in time that I can remember. 

I think the huge difference with my experience is we had a well trained companion dog in place before we ever brought him home. She took over big sister duties and provided security for him in new situations. Just as we were told, she was essential in his training.

What we are discussing is an animal that has many variations. Most of the problem animals I had seen were a Mal or Husky mix and over 50% wolf content. Not so much with the GSD mix if not over 50% wolf content. Mals and Huskies IMO don't bond like a GSD in the first place. That, along with the trainability of a GSD sometimes balances out and you do get an animal you can live with. That is only providing that the mix passes sound stable temperament along with the train ability of the GSD. There are absolutely no guarantees that a breeding will produce such an animal. They are rare and there is no way to know until maturity what you have on your hands. 

Some of the people that speak out against these animals are judging by what they have read or heard having never owned one. The sanctuary's are dealing with animals that could not assimilate, were mistreated and represent the worst side of the story. You could fill a stadium with those who have had bad personal experiences with wolf hybrids, but there will be 8 or 10 of us out in the parking lot sharing wonderful stories that will bring tears to our eyes. They are teachers at the spiritual level. That's why it's so hard to explain. 

Out of that 8 or 10 of us would we ever do it again? Probably not. This because the chances of getting lucky again with a sound animal would be like hitting Lotto.


----------



## Pax8

Stonevintage said:


> That socialization period is why we got ours at 18 days old. His eyes opened right on schedule at 21 days. Ours had no fear period at any point in time that I can remember.
> 
> I think the huge difference with my experience is we had a well trained companion dog in place before we ever brought him home. She took over big sister duties and provided security for him in new situations. Just as we were told, she was essential in his training.
> 
> What we are discussing is an animal that has many variations. Most of the problem animals I had seen were a Mal or Husky mix and over 50% wolf content. Not so much with the GSD mix if not over 50% wolf content. Mals and Huskies IMO don't bond like a GSD in the first place. That, along with the trainability of a GSD sometimes balances out and you do get an animal you can live with. That is only providing that the mix passes sound stable temperament along with the train ability of the GSD. There are absolutely no guarantees that a breeding will produce such an animal. They are rare and there is no way to know until maturity what you have on your hands.
> 
> Some of the people that speak out against these animals are judging by what they have read or heard having never owned one. The sanctuary's are dealing with animals that could not assimilate, were mistreated and represent the worst side of the story. You could fill a stadium with those who have had bad personal experiences with wolf hybrids, but there will be 8 or 10 of us out in the parking lot sharing wonderful stories that will bring tears to our eyes. They are teachers at the spiritual level. That's why it's so hard to explain.
> 
> Out of that 8 or 10 of us would we ever do it again? Probably not. This because the chances of getting lucky again with a sound animal would be like hitting Lotto.


And this is one of those experiences where I'm sincerely glad it worked out so well for you and I'm very glad she worked out so well in your home.  

It's just that that isn't a common occurrence. We did deal with a lot of the worst at the sanctuary, but we also dealt with a lot of wolves and wolfdogs that we took in through no fault of their own. We had more than enough that actually came from good homes, but the owner was just no longer able to care for them. And even from those homes, there was still a high rate of wolfdogs that just did not have the temperament to adjust to a human environment. I love good stories, but when uneducated people read them, they think that wolfdogs are like that on the whole and not as an exception. I tend to stick to biological tendencies (which may not always be good) because I want uneducated people to have a more realistic view of what is possible so they aren't thinking any wolfdog they pick up will be a perfect family companion.


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## Stonevintage

Pax8 said:


> And this is one of those experiences where I'm sincerely glad it worked out so well for you and I'm very glad she worked out so well in your home.
> 
> It's just that that isn't a common occurrence. We did deal with a lot of the worst at the sanctuary, but we also dealt with a lot of wolves and wolfdogs that we took in through no fault of their own. We had more than enough that actually came from good homes, but the owner was just no longer able to care for them. And even from those homes, there was still a high rate of wolfdogs that just did not have the temperament to adjust to a human environment. I love good stories, but when uneducated people read them, they think that wolfdogs are like that on the whole and not as an exception. I tend to stick to biological tendencies (which may not always be good) because I want uneducated people to have a more realistic view of what is possible so they aren't thinking any wolfdog they pick up will be a perfect family companion.


I totally understand. That's why I put warnings all over in my posts. It's just like dog owner's that say "it's the owner not the breed". There is a genetic predisposition that needs to be considered and it doesn't matter what the human does, there can be unacceptable and sometimes deadly behavior. These hybrids are a prime example of that. There will always be idiots in this world who ignore all warning. Sometimes it's just hard not being able to share because of the overwhelming presence of "uneducated" people that we have to try to keep from doing something stupid. 

In Idaho,(my resident state) the wolf was reintroduced in 1997. The numbers steadily increased and were at around 1,600 in the state two years ago. Now there are 600. The state pulled more money from the general fund to continue to exterminate every one they can. Federal law says that Idaho must maintain 100 wolves or 10 breeding packs in the state. The new money just appropriated guarantees they will kill 500 more before being forced to stop. How's that for stupid? Our Governor says he wants every wolf dead and was considering suing the Federal government to make this so. Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation has our governor bought and paid for.


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## Susan_GSD_mom

Pax8 said:


> They transferred as many as they could to other sanctuaries. Merry and Pippin got to go together which I was really happy about. Some of the very aggressive and difficult to manage ones were put down - I know for sure Victra was one along with several of his posse. But they basically started with the friendliest and then the most difficult cases that other sanctuaries could not or would not handle were destroyed.
> 
> Stonevintage - One of the things people don't seem to realize is there is a huge reason that dogs are the ones that have been living around humans for so long - they have specifically developed over tens of thousands of years to be adaptable to our lifestyle. One of the biggest factors is socialization period. Dogs have a LONG socialization period compared to wolves. And dogs have a much higher mental threshold for stress. So things that they were not used to as a puppy they are still able to habituate to fairly easily. But with wolves, their socialization period ends quickly usually by the third month in my experience and then they have an EXTREME fear period where everything strange petrifies them. It is nearly impossible to socialize a wolf to a busy himan environment (like a city) because that environment changes so much. *Plus wolves are just not wired to work with us. If you've ever watched the Nova special on a dog's mind, the part about taising the wolf pups to see if they would be doglike was very familiar to me.* At a certain point, the wildness just sets in and you have zero meaning to them until you earn it in adulthood. They haven't developed the focus on humans that dogs have over their development.


So sorry for those that had to be put down.

Your statement above--if it was from the same Nova show, I really appreciated the experiments they ran where there was a puzzle, and if a dog couldn't figure something out, he turned to the human. If a wolf couldn't figure something out, he just tried harder, using brute force or trying a different method. For me, very revealing as far as the differences in personality, and something I had also noticed. What was also very revealing for me was watching the wolfdogs and dogs interact, we had both--it so much showcased what researchers have said--dogs are immature wolves. The wolfdogs could always out-think the dogs, and in fact often took great delight in doing it. You could see the enjoyment on their faces, like they were playing the ultimate in practical jokes. 

And as much as I loved all of mine, I really do NOT recommend anyone to rush out and get one. They are a serious, lifetime commitment.

I do have to disagree a bit on one point, however, something we used to discuss on a wolfdog forum I used to frequent. Sanctuaries and rescues see the worst case scenarios, no one makes headlines by successfully caring for wolfdogs. These are the ones people DON'T hear about, because first of all, they don't go around telling people they have them, I certainly didn't when I had them. The vets who care for them don't publicize it, and the successful ones don't make headlines. So I know there are far more successful caregivers for wolfdogs than you realize. But there are definitely way too many who are unsuccessful, and for me that is not acceptable. Would I have another (or two) if I could? Yes, but it would be from rescue, not from a breeder. I have seen the captive wolves used in breeding, and they do NOT look happy. And for me, that is entirely unacceptable.

Susan


----------



## Bridget

Stonevintage said:


> In Idaho,(my resident state) the wolf was reintroduced in 1997. The numbers steadily increased and were at around 1,600 in the state two years ago. Now there are 600. The state pulled more money from the general fund to continue to exterminate every one they can. Federal law says that Idaho must maintain 100 wolves or 10 breeding packs in the state. The new money just appropriated guarantees they will kill 500 more before being forced to stop. How's that for stupid? Our Governor says he wants every wolf dead and was considering suing the Federal government to make this so. Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation has our governor bought and paid for.


This makes me so sad (and mad). Seems like as soon as a species is off the endangered species list, people kill them until they are back on it.


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## dogma13

Idaho should take a look at what happened in Yellowstone when the wolves were annihilated.The elk herd overran the place and their overgrazing wreaked havoc on the environment.


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## Stonevintage

Bridget said:


> This makes me so sad (and mad). Seems like as soon as a species is off the endangered species list, people kill them until they are back on it.


4 days ago, when 2 bald eagles paid a visit to my backyard, I got a feeling. Hard to describe. My heart just swelled. I was so happy to be living where I do to be able to see such a sight. I had the same feeling 4 years ago when, standing on my front porch around 10pm I listened to the howls of two wolves in the distance at the base of the mountains just outside of the city. First time that had been heard here in at least 75 years.

I was so proud of people being able to turn things around in the last 2 decades to right some of the wrongs we have done to our wildlife and forests. 

Idaho has such a sad track record. They are driven to use the forest for income for big game hunters from out of state. Off road vehicles in the fall and summer are everywhere and in the winter it's snowmobiles. Picture 4 drunk ******** running animals to the ground and them killing them and bragging about it and you have a good picture of what goes on here.


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## Chip18

Pax8 said:


> Anyways, this is a lot more typing than I thought. If anyone would like to hear more stories, let me know!


Uh, yeah! And thanks for sharing!


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR

I am one of THOSE animal lover people that does not support hunting, but it IS legal, and anytime I try to say anything I always get met with hostility. I have just learned to not say much about it unless I am trying to make a difference in a another way ex: signing a petition, canvassing, etc...

It is sad what wolves have to go through. I wish they would not be hunted but the pro hunters always have reasons and ideas of why this is a good thing and why certain animals need to be hunted. *shrug* I can't argue with them, all I can do is try in my own small way to make a difference.


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## Susan_GSD_mom

dogma13 said:


> Idaho should take a look at what happened in Yellowstone when the wolves were annihilated.The elk herd overran the place and their overgrazing wreaked havoc on the environment.


Yes, it had quite the 'trickle down' effect on the WHOLE ecosystem there, a very negative effect.

Susan


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## dogma13

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> I am one of THOSE animal lover people that does not support hunting, but it IS legal, and anytime I try to say anything I always get met with hostility. I have just learned to not say much about it unless I am trying to make a difference in a another way ex: signing a petition, canvassing, etc...
> 
> It is sad what wolves have to go through. I wish they would not be hunted but the pro hunters always have reasons and ideas of why this is a good thing and why certain animals need to be hunted. *shrug* I can't argue with them, all I can do is try in my own small way to make a difference.


Getting off topic a bit(sorry) but just wanted to say I think hunting your own food is a good thing,but trophy hunting I find repulsive.


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## Susan_GSD_mom

dogma13 said:


> Getting off topic a bit(sorry) but just wanted to say *I think hunting your own food is a good thing,but trophy hunting I find repulsive.*


^^^^This--Yes!!

Susan


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## counter

And nobody (that I know of) hunts wolves to eat them. It's strictly for sport, the thrill of the kill, and nothing more.

The sad thing is, we've figured out how to eat without having to kill anything for our diet, so even hunting for food is no longer necessary. Go back far enough and humans had little proof that being vegan or vegetarian could maintain their health and enable them to thrive without having to kill to survive. But that's a whole other topic with passionate people on both sides defending their beliefs. I respect what others choose to do or not do, as long as they don't affect me or try pushing their choices on me, because I don't push my beliefs on them. I also understand that we don't live in an ideal world, so it is impossible to live without killing something. I take a practical approach to do what I can to ensure animals don't die for me to the best of my ability. 

I think eventually people will move more towards a cruelty-free diet, as it's already nice to see more people frown upon wolf hunting. Not too long ago, the wolf conservationists and the general populace who supported repopulating wolves were a very small minority. I think we're still the minority, but it's a growing minority and it will hopefully continue to grow until we are the majority.

My co-workers are hunters here in Idaho, and they drool at the chance to kill wolves. They also know that my dogs are on a raw diet, so they've been so kind as to offer me wolf meat to feed to my dogs whenever they get their first wolf. I humbly declined such a "wonderful" offer. Aren't my co-workers so thoughtful!?! Oh how I love the mindset of dem huntin' folks.


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## newlie

Pax, I would love to hear more stories, I think this is a fascinating thread. I have no illusions about my own abilities to care for a wolf hybrid, me and Newlie would probably both end up as lunch on the first day, but everybody's stories have been great and I have learned so much about wolves that I never knew before.


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## Nigel

counter said:


> And nobody (that I know of) hunts wolves to eat them. It's strictly for sport, the thrill of the kill, and nothing more.


You forgot hatred and ignorance. I've hunted and have no problem with people hunting for food. I find the idea of hunting solely for trophies troubling, taking the largest "trophy" deer, elk etc and leaving what in the gene pool? kind of like natural selection in reverse.

I'm glad wolves have made a come back, good to see they're doing well here in Washington, but I'm not against controlling thier population to some extent. Elk, deer, and other prey animals need to play catch up, not that their numbers are as low as the anti wolf crowd claims, but they need learn to deal with this "new again" predator, one they have not had to worry about for many generations.

Most hunters fail to fill their wolf tag, there is a competition held in Idaho for the last two years, 0 wolves have been taken during this event, lol! A number of the "wolfs R eatin all da elk" crowd are the same ones who drive to their favorite spot where in years past the herds remained due to lack of pressure, with the return of the wolf, those herds have been forced to move, they were not all gobbled up by the big bad wolf, they've just been forced to migrate as they use to.


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## wyominggrandma

I hunt and we eat what we kill. However, its quite a horrific feeling when you walk around a trail and there is a pack of wolves staring at you and your horses........ 
Also, have seen what wolves do to horses, calves and cows. Its not a pretty sight.
I understand the ranchers wanting to shoot them. When they released them in Yellowstone, the part they forgot was that they are not dogs and therefore would not stay in their boundries of the park. They roam and do cause havoc. Know of a wolf that killed peoples dogs in Jackson Hole, in their backyards. Had a friend cow pulled down by a wolf pack, many many miles from Yellowstone. Horses attacked and mutilated. One of the worse things I witnessed while visiting my daughter in Jackson Hole hospital? watching a pack of wolves that were on the feedground pull down and kill and elk, then just went on their merry way after more elk. 
Some folks love the thoughts of wolves roaming free again. Yep, its a pretty site to see one up close and personal, seen them kill dogs and domestic animals, know ranchers who have lost their calves to wolves. 
Sorry, when that happens, they should be allowed to cut the packs down.


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## Stonevintage

Nigel said:


> You forgot hatred and ignorance. I've hunted and have no problem with people hunting for food. I find the idea of hunting solely for trophies troubling, taking the largest "trophy" deer, elk etc and leaving what in the gene pool? kind of like natural selection in reverse.
> 
> I'm glad wolves have made a come back, good to see they're doing well here in Washington, but I'm not against controlling thier population to some extent. Elk, deer, and other prey animals need to play catch up, not that their numbers are as low as the anti wolf crowd claims, but they need learn to deal with this "new again" predator, one they have not had to worry about for many generations.
> 
> Most hunters fail to fill their wolf tag, there is a competition held in Idaho for the last two years, 0 wolves have been taken during this event, lol! A number of the "wolfs R eatin all da elk" crowd are the same ones who drive to their favorite spot where in years past the herds remained due to lack of pressure, with the return of the wolf, those herds have been forced to move, they were not all gobbled up by the big bad wolf, they've just been forced to migrate as they use to.


Hi Nigel - The 1,000 wolves that were killed in Idaho in the last 28 months were primarily the result of Fish & Game officers and the Special Wolf Eradication panel under direction of our Governor that he funded out of the states' General Fund. Fish & Game didn't want to do this and they never asked for the money. All records showed a robust Elk population (the decline attributed to over logging and the invasive non native weeds taking over browse sites for the Elk. This is the first time in history that the General Fund (tax payers money- the same used to pay for teachers and health care) had been used for such a special interest. Idaho ranks in the bottom three states in Education and Health care, yet the money was taken from the General Fund that funds those programs. The man is insane. 

They are using helicopters to locate dens and are pulling out and killing pups from the den and every pack member. It's 100% extermination. 455,000 was just appropriated to kill the wolves in the Northern 3 counties (Kootenai, Bonner and Boundary). These aren't hit and miss hunters. According to their plan, there will be less than 5 wolves left in the Idaho Panhandle. 

Washington State, 3 years ago, (when they had just a few documented packs outside of the Cascade range) had already developed their "management plan" that plan is to open up wolf hunting and extermination as soon as the law permits.It's all about money on the trophy Elk. Check it out on the Wash. Fish & Game website.


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## Stonevintage

wyominggrandma said:


> I hunt and we eat what we kill. However, its quite a horrific feeling when you walk around a trail and there is a pack of wolves staring at you and your horses........
> Also, have seen what wolves do to horses, calves and cows. Its not a pretty sight.
> I understand the ranchers wanting to shoot them. When they released them in Yellowstone, the part they forgot was that they are not dogs and therefore would not stay in their boundries of the park. They roam and do cause havoc. Know of a wolf that killed peoples dogs in Jackson Hole, in their backyards. Had a friend cow pulled down by a wolf pack, many many miles from Yellowstone. Horses attacked and mutilated. One of the worse things I witnessed while visiting my daughter in Jackson Hole hospital? watching a pack of wolves that were on the feedground pull down and kill and elk, then just went on their merry way after more elk.
> Some folks love the thoughts of wolves roaming free again. Yep, its a pretty site to see one up close and personal, seen them kill dogs and domestic animals, know ranchers who have lost their calves to wolves.
> Sorry, when that happens, they should be allowed to cut the packs down.


There was never any question that packs that killed domestic animals would be controlled. The agreement has been 100% reimbursement of highest market value paid for the loss of livestock and that has always been honored at least here in Idaho. The numbers in Idaho are quite different from the picture you paint. In North Idaho, for example, there is a sufficient amount of game, here are the domestic animal losses in the last 10 years - 2 dogs, 1 sheep. That's it.

There was a horrific case reported about 8 years ago that a pack of wolves destroyed 200 sheep overnight in Southern Idaho. The story went, that they just kept killing and killing and killing. After the press was done and the reports came out from many different sources, the reality was that the sheep panicked and 192 died of suffocation from the pile up they created while jumping down a small ravine. In most countries, there are shepherds and dogs that guard the sheep. Not here. The German Shepherd Dog would do well to prevent this from happening.


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## Susan_GSD_mom

Stonevintage, thank you for baring the facts. The factions that want the wolves eradicated will use any means. It usually boils down to greed of some form or another.

Susan


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## Stonevintage

Susan_GSD_mom said:


> Stonevintage, thank you for baring the facts. The factions that want the wolves eradicated will use any means. It usually boils down to greed of some form or another.
> 
> Susan


Thank you for the support. Living where I do, I've been alone in my opinion for many decades. The hatred is so deep here that even when Fish & Game turns in no problem and Elk are on the rebound, they are still going to kill all but 10 packs for the entire state - based on nothing.... Here, it's all about money for the Elk hunters from out of state. It's ironic, 3 Southern states have reintroduced Elk herds in recent years and they number over 10,000 animals now. The farmers and ranchers in these southern states want wolves moved into the area to cut down on the brouse and fence damages caused by the Elk. Hunters no longer need to travel to Idaho for trophy Elk - they are in their own backyards now. Idaho is still beating the old news drum. - They need to blame something and their lack of drive to do anything but sell off timber and wildlife is destroying this beautiful state.


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## Nigel

Stonevintage said:


> There was never any question that packs that killed domestic animals would be controlled. The agreement has been 100% reimbursement of highest market value paid for the loss of livestock and that has always been honored at least here in Idaho. The numbers in Idaho are quite different from the picture you paint. In North Idaho, for example, there is a sufficient amount of game, here are the domestic animal losses in the last 10 years - 2 dogs, 1 sheep. That's it.
> 
> There was a horrific case reported about 8 years ago that a pack of wolves destroyed 200 sheep overnight in Southern Idaho. The story went, that they just kept killing and killing and killing. After the press was done and the reports came out from many different sources, the reality was that the sheep panicked and 192 died of suffocation from the pile up they created while jumping down a small ravine. *In most countries, there are shepherds and dogs that guard the sheep. Not here. The German Shepherd Dog would do well to prevent this from happening*.


Not here, cattle are trucked into the national forest to graze (usually at cheap lease rates). They are essentially dropped off to roam free and allowed to damage stream beds and break down the banks introducing sediment into streams. Having someone actually work with/check on the herd could prevent predation and more damage to our watershed.


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## counter

Stonevintage said:


> Living where I do, I've been alone in my opinion for many decades.


 You're not alone anymore. I moved to Idaho in December 2013. I'm planning to volunteer as an intern at the Wolf Education and Research Center in Winchester, ID in the near future. I've been in touch with their wildlife (wolf) biologist to set it up.

I thought you were from NJ? I was born in Wayne, and my grandparents were living in Clifton. My Grandfather was the Mayor and Register of Deeds for Passaic County, working out of Paterson.


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## Stonevintage

Nigel said:


> Not here, cattle are trucked into the national forest to graze (usually at cheap lease rates). They are essentially dropped off to roam free and allowed to damage stream beds and break down the banks introducing sediment into streams. Having someone actually work with/check on the herd could prevent predation and more damage to our watershed.


Yes. I used to spend all my free time up in the woods on the East side of Priest Lake, one of the more remote and pristine areas of North Idaho. The cattle are everywhere up there, the stream banks are not banks, they are trodden down by cattle. We never did find a place remote enough that we weren't having to watch out for cattle (and all the gallons of urine) in the streams. They just stand there in the middle of the stream except when they are eating. Same for the Whitefish area of Montana. As far as I know, the states get pennies per hundred acres for cattle grazing leases on forest land. It's a dirty little secret until you get outside of the parks and talk with the people who live in these areas that don't own cattle. 

I don't know if you've ever done this before but check out Google Earth and look around the Northwest area from Washington State to Western Montana. The land has been clearcut but they have left these tree corridors boarding the highways and roads and mark them as scenic areas, but there's no roads leading to them. It's just hype, a facade.


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## Stonevintage

counter said:


> You're not alone anymore. I moved to Idaho in December 2013. I'm planning to volunteer as an intern at the Wolf Education and Research Center in Winchester, ID in the near future. I've been in touch with their wildlife (wolf) biologist to set it up.
> 
> I thought you were from NJ? I was born in Wayne, and my grandparents were living in Clifton. My Grandfather was the Mayor and Register of Deeds for Passaic County, working out of Paterson.


Awesome. I just hope you are prepared, the attitudes are really bad here. Please, help make a difference. I have never backed down from a conversation with the most dyed in the wool 10th generation wolf hater in Idaho. 

There is a site you may be interested in looking at. Just search "Ralph Maughn Idaho State University" and you will find his wolf report site as a link. I don't correspond as much as I used to with him, but he has sites that are updated daily. 

Nope, no Joursee. But I have friends there from when I did live back on the East Coast. Funny though with your Grandfather, I spent 15 years here processing Deeds for the county....


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR

This is what I was watching that prompted me to start this thread. If you have a free 45 minutes, this is an interesting watch. Its Cesar Milan, except in this episode he is more hands off, and let's a wolf expert take the reins.

http://youtu.be/lpFkdxa0XK4


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## counter

Stonevintage said:


> Awesome. I just hope you are prepared, the attitudes are really bad here. Please, help make a difference. I have never backed down from a conversation with the most dyed in the wool 10th generation wolf hater in Idaho.
> 
> There is a site you may be interested in looking at. Just search "Ralph Maughn Idaho State University" and you will find his wolf report site as a link. I don't correspond as much as I used to with him, but he has sites that are updated daily.
> 
> Nope, no Joursee. But I have friends there from when I did live back on the East Coast. Funny though with your Grandfather, I spent 15 years here processing Deeds for the county....


I'm more than prepared for dealing with the ignorance/ignorants. Trust me! I've been a strict vegetarian/vegan for 20 years, so I've learned to stand strong with my beliefs regardless of being in the minority. I'm very passionate about my personal convictions, and no outsider can shake that foundation.

Thanks for that info/link to research. I've been contacting L. David Mech, who is considered to be the top wolf biologist. He is a professor at the U. of Minnesota, and has been working around/with wolves for 60 years. I'm slowly buying up anything and everything written by him and his colleagues to study and absorb their wealth of knowledge and information. I have an email at work that I can't access right now, but he basically told me not to worry about what's going on in Idaho, and that the wolf population here isn't suffering (as bad as people think) based on how the state is trying to manage our wolves. I want to quote his exact words, so I'll have to pull up the email next time I'm at work. He also mentions on his website that the U. of Idaho is one of the top 5 best colleges for wolf/wildlife biology in the US. So that makes me somewhat glad to live here and be a voice for the voiceless in the state that gets the worst grade for our view/management of wolves. 

As for Jersey, I must've confused you for someone else. Sorry. Where did you live on the east coast? I've lived in NJ, NY, PA, VA and NC. I've also lived in IL, TN, LA, OR, and now ID.

As for my Grandfather, if you remember the movie Lean on Me with the black high school principal who carried a baseball bat to protect himself and his school and as an attitude adjuster...well, most of the political persons/judges portrayed in that film were all appointed (in real life) by my Grandfather when he was in office. I remember being a kid at his government building (the courthouse I believe) when they were filming that movie. I could look out of his office window to the streets below as they filmed. Pretty neat for me as a kid.


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## Chip18

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> This is what I was watching that prompted me to start this thread. If you have a free 45 minutes, this is an interesting watch. Its Cesar Milan, except in this episode he is more hands off, and let's a wolf expert take the reins.
> 
> http://youtu.be/lpFkdxa0XK4


Thank you for the link, I think I saw it awhile ago but will watch it again!

You never know where a thread will go! 

I'm waiting for the dust to die down!  

I want to get a "wild animal " as a "pet" myself! Tired of "stupid" NV house cats!

So I want to get a North Va Opossum! Gooo meee! 

I have my second hand Wolf Dog stuff to add when the dust up dies down!


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## counter

Here's a video about wolves that is probably the best I've ever seen. It's called Living with Wolves, about the beginning stages of the wolf reintroduction starting here in Idaho and Yellowstone. Jim and Jaime Dutcher, ID residents, raised some of the first wolf packs in the Sawtooth Mountains of Idaho, and they worked with the Nez Perce tribe to release some of them into the wild of Yellowstone.

https://youtu.be/RWmOtXSAr1M


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## Stonevintage

Those are both good. Saw them when they first came out.

The last time I got "involved" was about 8 years ago. I was sitting minding my own business in a local tavern across the street after work. (really, I was...) This man came in and sat down and was bragging about how he and his buddies were going to wipe out the wolf population in North Idaho. I didn't say a word but the owner approached the man and asked him to please be careful about the controversial topic as he was sitting next to me.

Well, this man proceeded to to crap in my ear about every wolf hating thing he could think of. I warned him 3 times not to talk to me but he proceeded. So, within 1/2 hour, I had every detail of their plan. One of these Elk hunter guys had a litter sick with Parvo, the other 4 guys had gone to the Humane Society and adopted puppies and put them in with the sick litter to get them infected. Their plan was to take all the puppies out to the woods the next day and stake them down and hurt them so they would cry to attract wolves. This guy was the metal shop teacher at our college.

I stood up and told him I was reporting him to Fish & Game at 8:00 in the morning and not to the local good ol' boy office here in town and also to the Fed's which I did. 

I thought I would report the information and hang up. No - During the next 45 minutes I was involved in a conference call from the head of F & G for Idaho, the head of the reintroduction in Wash, D.C, Ed Bangs (I was floored) and 2 federal biologists. Mostly I listened, the fed's asked the biologists to pull the titer data on parvo among wild candids in Idaho - while they were waiting and discussing Federal charges against this man, the biologists came back on the l ine and reported the data indicated Parvo in every wild canid in Idaho and the loss range on litters was only 10-20% that the population had this and was still viable. 

Fish & Game 2 weeks later had a "special meeting" in this area of wacko nuts and layed out the federal charges for anyone attempting to attack the protected wolf population thru means such as this. They never arrested the man, but I felt I did some good. I was absolutely floored to speak to Ed Bangs - he has been legend with me re: wolves for about 40 years.


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## Chip18

Thanks yet again! 

My wildlife permit will be for my "cat" replacement option but I do find the "subject' of Wolf Dogs very intriguing!


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## Chip18

Stonevintage said:


> Fish & Game 2 weeks later had a "special meeting" in this area of wacko nuts and layed out the federal charges for anyone attempting to attack the protected wolf population thru means such as this. They never arrested the man, but I felt I did some good. I was absolutely floored to speak to Ed Bangs - he has been legend with me re: wolves for about 40 years.


WOW!!

Thank you for your effort!!:hug:


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## Susan_GSD_mom

Stonevintage said:


> Thank you for the support. Living where I do, I've been alone in my opinion for many decades. The hatred is so deep here that even when Fish & Game turns in no problem and Elk are on the rebound, they are still going to kill all but 10 packs for the entire state - based on nothing.... Here, it's all about money for the Elk hunters from out of state. It's ironic, 3 Southern states have reintroduced Elk herds in recent years and they number over 10,000 animals now. The farmers and ranchers in these southern states want wolves moved into the area to cut down on the brouse and fence damages caused by the Elk. Hunters no longer need to travel to Idaho for trophy Elk - they are in their own backyards now. Idaho is still beating the old news drum. - They need to blame something and their lack of drive to do anything but sell off timber and wildlife is destroying this beautiful state.


Here in Michigan it was the whitetail deer--the wolves would kill off too many deer, wouldn't be any for the hunters who spend mega bucks to come here and hunt. And yet there are deer everywhere, even in cities, in the very tame township where we live now. They did have the wolves on the protected list, but removed them and started a hunt last year or the year before, don't remember when (taking care of my sister often distances me from a lot of the current info). I remember lawsuits brought to stop it, which I think they finally did, but not before a number of wolves were killed. It sickens me.

Susan


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## dogma13

Susan_GSD_mom said:


> Stonevintage said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for the support. Living where I do, I've been alone in my opinion for many decades. The hatred is so deep here that even when Fish & Game turns in no problem and Elk are on the rebound, they are still going to kill all but 10 packs for the entire state - based on nothing.... Here, it's all about money for the Elk hunters from out of state. It's ironic, 3 Southern states have reintroduced Elk herds in recent years and they number over 10,000 animals now. The farmers and ranchers in these southern states want wolves moved into the area to cut down on the brouse and fence damages caused by the Elk. Hunters no longer need to travel to Idaho for trophy Elk - they are in their own backyards now. Idaho is still beating the old news drum. - They need to blame something and their lack of drive to do anything but sell off timber and wildlife is destroying this beautiful state.
> 
> 
> 
> Here in Michigan it was the whitetail deer--the wolves would kill off too many deer, wouldn't be any for the hunters who spend mega bucks to come here and hunt. And yet there are deer everywhere, even in cities, in the very tame township where we live now. They did have the wolves on the protected list, but removed them and started a hunt last year or the year before, don't remember when (taking care of my sister often distances me from a lot of the current info). I remember lawsuits brought to stop it, which I think they finally did, but not before a number of wolves were killed. It sickens me.
> 
> Susan[/QUOTME]Michigan is overrun with deer especially in southern Mi.
> The wolves were hanging around one particular farm and killed a few calves.The reason they were attracted to that farm was that the farmer had dead livestock (natural causes) laying all around his property.Somehow that got so blown out of proportion the powers that be decided they needed to exterminate some.What they needed to do is make the guy remove the carcasses.Clueless people.
Click to expand...


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## Susan_GSD_mom

dogma13 said:


> The wolves were hanging around one particular farm and killed a few calves.The reason they were attracted to that farm was that the farmer had dead livestock (natural causes) laying all around his property.*Somehow that got so blown out of proportion the powers that be decided they needed to exterminate some.What they needed to do is make the guy remove the carcasses.Clueless people.*


YES! I remember that now! 

Susan


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## Pax8

I made it back! By request, a couple more stories from the sanctuary! 

I didn't even tell you guys about Orlock who was easily one of the sweetest, biggest babies we had on the grounds! He was a Gray/GSD mix with lots of wolf in him. He was super fluffy and probably about 130 pounds. I always loved him because he would find people who were sitting down and wedge himself under their feet and basically make himself into a giant ottoman. Which was pretty cool unless you had leather boots on. He also liked leather - a lot. So if he wedged under your feet and you were wearing leather boots, you could bet money you were going to lose one unless you sent him off.

He also had a MAJOR thing about peppermint. No idea why or where it came from, but he was obsessive about the smell of peppermint. He was notorious for getting into gum, lip balms, into cars to pull down the scented mirror hangers, and god help you if you had peppermint smelling perfume. Because that was what happened to a visitor of ours. We knew he would go nuts about the way she smelled, and she was nervous about being around the wolves anyways (photography student just trying to get pictures, not used to them) so we just left him with one of the staff in the main house while we took her to a couple paddocks and let her take some pictures. We drove her back to the main house and stopped to chat again with some other volunteers, then hopped back in the truck to return her to her car at the entrance. We all pile in and just before we're about to start down the road, there's a LOUD snuffle behind the girl and Orlock's ginormous tongue just starts bathing the back of the poor girl's neck! The house staff were just as surprised as us. Last they had seen him, he had seemed asleep on his bed. On further inspection, we found a broken latch and a pushed open window in the back room. He had snuck out and then squeezed himself into the truck through the bed window (which was always open during summertime). I've always just been amazed at how silent a 130 pound wolfdog can be. Not a single person heard him move or do anything until he was right on top of us in the truck! Silly boy. :crazy:

We also ordered delivery very often, so it was common to have a delivery boy bringing our food up, ringing the doorbell, and handing us lunch or dinner. Orlock was normally elsewhere, but one day he caught one of these exchanges and got curious. For a few days after, he would sit and stare at the door around the time the delivery people came, watch the exchange, then wander away. We thought he was just interested in seeing new people come and go. But about six or seven days after he started watching, we were all sitting at the table eating lunch when we heard scuffling at the door and then a single "BRRRING!" We kind of looked at each other and I wandered over and opened up the door. And freaking Orlock is sitting there with a big dumb grin on his face waiting to see if he was going to get anything! I couldn't help but laugh, but I didn't want to reward ringing the doorbell, so I closed the door and went back to lunch. Which was apparently a mistake. Because Orlock started ringing the bell over and over and over and over.... Probably about three or four minutes straight until I got fed up and grabbed a cookie. I walked over and swung open the door, flung the cookie out into the lawn, and fumed "THERE! Are ya happy now?!" And that flipping wolfdog takes the cookie and just runs off back to his paddock, happy as can be! What got me is he didn't keep doing it over and over on the same day after he got his cookie. He got into a routine of waiting until after the delivery people left, then he would ring the bell until he got a cookie, then he would run with it and be calm and quiet the rest of the day. Some of my friends and I called it "Dine N' Dash". The director called it "demanding ransom." Different opinions, I guess. 


And then poor Katya, who I loved to death bless her heart, but she was just the dimmest wolf I've ever seen. She was a full Arctic wolf rescued from an abusive wolfdog breeding ring. VERY skittish (a loose plastic bag in her paddock sent her into a manic state for hours, sometimes days), but pretty friendly if she got used to you. Some people she hated, most she was just ok with being around. A very few she decided she wanted to be their second skin. The director, myself, and two other staff members were in that group. We found out quickly that we had to double check her food bowl after setting it out because she was really good at getting startled and knocking her food bowl over when she ran. But then when she came back, she couldn't figure out how to get the food out from under the overturned bowl. She would pace and whine and eventually just wander away. She had gone for four days without eating and we were getting worried because she ate food from hand ravenously yet her bowl was always found full. It was only when we started going back in that we found out her confusion about food bowls. She was also really bad about dipping her entire muzzle into the water when drinking, trying to breath, and then coming up a hacking, snorting, wheezing mess.  I think probably the epitome of her way of thinking was when we were replacing an inner fenceline and she was wandering the fence with me. I had torn down about fifty feet of fence on either side of a small gate (maybe three feet wide). We were keeping the gate, so it was just that in a pretty much open field while I was sitting against one side of it, prepping the new fenceline. Katya was on the other side, romping around, digging up grass. She happened to look over at me and I saw a sudden look of horror or confusion on her face. She charged the gate and slammed into it top speed, whining and crying. She shocked me, so I jumped to my feet and was trying to figure out what was wrong. The whole while, she was crying and even when she stopped jumping, she was just frozen in a wide stance with the full whites of her eyes showing, yowling and making a horrible noise. I stepped around the gate and she immediately calmed down and came over, licking and rolling at my feet. I didn't see any wounds, so I returned to my fenceline only for her to freak out again. I stood and watched her freak out and pace, and I realized she was pacing what used to be the fenceline and didn't seem to realize it wasn't there anymore. When I was inside, she was fine. When I was outside, she'd slam into the gate to try to get me to let her 'out' of the paddock. Katya, Katya. Cute as a button, and sharp as a baseball bat. I finished the rest of the fence from the INSIDE. Just for her.


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## dogma13

Wonderful stories!Thank you!


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