# Is it worth it to teach protection?



## saraaahhhp (Apr 9, 2015)

I'm probably getting a German Shepherd in two weeks and a major reason I am is for protection. But, is it worth it to pay for bite training? I know that a majority of people will see a big, intimidating dog who's growling and barking and run as fast as possible in the other direction. So, if I teach a dog to bark and growl on command, would it be worth it to teach bite work?


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## royals17 (Feb 15, 2015)

I'm no expert, and I'm only speaking about experience with my own dog, but Apollo is just inherently protective. If a creepy guy walks by us on a walk, his hackles are up and he growls. Once there was an intruder in the backyard and he chased him away right quick. He has not had a day of protection training in his life. So, in my own, inexperienced, unaware opinion, it's probably not necessary. But if you're already training for bark and growl on command, why not?


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## saraaahhhp (Apr 9, 2015)

royals17 said:


> I'm no expert, and I'm only speaking about experience with my own dog, but Apollo is just inherently protective. If a creepy guy walks by us on a walk, his hackles are up and he growls. Once there was an intruder in the backyard and he chased him away right quick. He has not had a day of protection training in his life. So, in my own, inexperienced, unaware opinion, it's probably not necessary. But if you're already training for bark and growl on command, why not?


Thank you.  That's really helpful.


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## royals17 (Feb 15, 2015)

saraaahhhp said:


> Thank you.  That's really helpful.


You got it. 

And welcome to the forum.


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## RockyK9 (Dec 9, 2014)

saraaahhhp said:


> I'm probably getting a German Shepherd in two weeks and a major reason I am is for protection. But, is it worth it to pay for bite training? I know that a majority of people will see a big, intimidating dog who's growling and barking and run as fast as possible in the other direction. So, if I teach a dog to bark and growl on command, would it be worth it to teach bite work?


 If you absolutely need a dog for personal protection( outside of alerting with barking) please understand the responsibility and liability of having a dog like this. Having said that , a dog can growl and hackle up but not have the confidence or temperament to actually protect you should this escalate. Dogs needed for personal protection do need specific training , need to be tested before you would want to rely on them to do so. In my opinion.


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## Wolfenstein (Feb 26, 2009)

mattpayne said:


> a dog can growl and hackle up but not have the confidence or temperament to actually protect you should this escalate. Dogs needed for personal protection do need specific training , need to be tested before you would want to rely on them to do so.


This!  There is a HUGE difference between a deterrent to a problem and actual PROTECTION. Even in the context of bite work, there is a difference between a sport dog and an actual, honest to goodness protection dog. Even when it comes to training a dog to bark at a subject, you need to be REALLY careful of your training, or else you may accidentally encourage the wrong behaviors/emotions in your dog. If you're encouraging a dog that is technically giving you the behavior that you want (focusing on and barking at someone, for example), but the emotional state is wrong, you could end up accidentally creating a dog that is super fearful and defensive. A dog that is encouraged in this way may end up unpredictable and bite out of fear.

If you're just looking for a nice, imposing dog for people to see with you on walks and on your property, regular classes/training should be sufficient. If you're looking for a dog to do any amount of actual protection, you really do need a talented trainer and the time and money to see the training through without just quitting in the end. It's a LIFE LONG training commitment, so make sure you're up for it!


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## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

i doubt anybody other than law enforcement needs a dog for actual protection. i was always under the impression the majority that train bite work do it as a sport.

unless you live in a real crappy neighborhood. if that's the case your first goal should be moving to a better neighborhood. if you really can't afford to, you prolly can't afford a dog or kids for that matter.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

IPO training in protection takes from 2 and half and up to five years. If you even take it on not to achieve goals in dog sports, but as a hobby - it will engross you entirely , would be one of your major interests in life like for many of us here in this Forum. It costs, but any sport costs! 
Many people start to teach protection out of necessity, when they start to understand that their young dog grows too agressive. Nothing wrong about having an agressive dog (mind, I'm talking about agression genetically inherited, not as a result o mistreating the dog), provided your agressive dog is obedient. And, instead of attacking people on his own initiative - your dog learns to wait for your command. With my previous dog I simply didn't have any choice, she wanted to protect me and any forbidding commands didn't work. In fact, they wouldn't work, because you cannot destroy the instinct, you can only redirect it. I had started with her in the club, we had a very good decoy-instructor, wonderful helpers and the club itself had a good green territory. It was simply pleasant for my dog to be there, she "found her inner self" there, became calmer and less reactive. She knew when we were going there by seing me with my Schutzhund bag, got very excited, and this sort of excitement was never exposed on strangers in the street ever again from the very irst session. Other dogs, and the majority of young dogs are different. Only their owner brings young dog for protection lessons - his dog starts to protect here and there, and everywhere. You should mind that Schutzhund protection, any achievement with your dog and getting positive results takes a long time. Some semi-trained dogs become dangerous. But a fully trained agressive dog - is the safest among not so agressive untrained.


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## RockyK9 (Dec 9, 2014)

David Taggart said:


> IPO training in protection takes from 2 and half and up to five years. If you even take it on not to achieve goals in dog sports, but as a hobby - it will engross you entirely , would be one of your major interests in life like for many of us here in this Forum. It costs, but any sport costs!
> Many people start to teach protection out of necessity, when they start to understand that their young dog grows too agressive. Nothing wrong about having an agressive dog (mind, I'm talking about agression genetically inherited, not as a result o mistreating the dog), provided your agressive dog is obedient. And, instead of attacking people on his own initiative - your dog learns to wait for your command. With my previous dog I simply didn't have any choice, she wanted to protect me and any forbidding commands didn't work. In fact, they wouldn't work, because you cannot destroy the instinct, you can only redirect it. I had started with her in the club, we had a very good decoy-instructor, wonderful helpers and the club itself had a good green territory. It was simply pleasant for my dog to be there, she "found her inner self" there, became calmer and less reactive. She knew when we were going there by seing me with my Schutzhund bag, got very excited, and this sort of excitement was never exposed on strangers in the street ever again from the very irst session. Other dogs, and the majority of young dogs are different. Only their owner brings young dog for protection lessons - his dog starts to protect here and there, and everywhere. You should mind that Schutzhund protection, any achievement with your dog and getting positive results takes a long time. Some semi-trained dogs become dangerous. But a fully trained agressive dog - is the safest among not so agressive untrained.


 I think she was referencing Personal Protection Training not Sport /IPO Protection which many dogs can do without the ability to protect for real. If you feel the need for a dog for Personal Protection Training I would not be going to an IPO club for that type of training.


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## jaxsongsd (Apr 6, 2015)

In my opinion it's not necessary.. For one: my 5 mo GSD already barks and alerts me of unknown sounds.. for example, I left my keys on the window sill with the window open the other night. The wind blew them off and they fell to the ground.. Immediately Jax woke up and barked and looked around. 

This alone should be enough protection.. It would give you a chance to prepare yourself (i.e grab the gun out of the safe or whatever).. I don't think an armed intruder with a gun would have a problem killing a dog. 

Second: Jax is also showing signs of protection anyway. If a dog runs up to me real fast that he doesnt know, he will run over and give the dog a warning park. Or if a person grabs or run towards me he also is starting to bark.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

mattpayne said:


> I think she was referencing Personal Protection Training not Sport /IPO Protection which many dogs can do without the ability to protect for real. If you feel the need for a dog for Personal Protection Training I would not be going to an IPO club for that type of training.


You're probably much better off training a dog to do bitework with people who have experience than on your own.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

saraaahhhp said:


> I'm probably getting a German Shepherd in two weeks and a major reason I am is for protection. But, is it worth it to pay for bite training? I know that a majority of people will see a big, intimidating dog who's growling and barking and run as fast as possible in the other direction. So, if I teach a dog to bark and growl on command, would it be worth it to teach bite work?


With either decision you make, you'll need to create a solid foundation of training with your pup. This includes solid OB work. Start training your pup with a professional, it will be really good for both of you. Then, after you have built your foundation ask your trainer how they feel about what direction you should take your dog.


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## Montu (Oct 9, 2012)

Only you can decide...but an untrained dog will almost certainly not bite.

Do you NEED to do the training? No just like you don't NEED to do anything else.

I just started it, but I do it mostly for fun and if it happens to be useful one day then great!


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## RockyK9 (Dec 9, 2014)

GatorDog said:


> You're probably much better off training a dog to do bitework with people who have experience than on your own.


 I totally agree but I guess I thought the OP may be speaking of Personal Protection work not simply bite work alone.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

Right... I tried to read your post more attentively. No, you cannot teach your dog just to bark and growl without him coming into action. 
To raise a PP dog is extremely difficult task, that is a further step in a different direction than IPO. Don't even think about it, by law (I believe should be similar in US) use of a dog in self-defence is equal to use of a cold weapon. Your dog must be perfectly trained, otherwise not even you would be safe. That is one of reasons why inexperienced people buy already trained dogs.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

I always enjoy these threads...

It takes soo long to train one!
Its a HUGE liability!
IPO dogs arent real.
Get a Showline because they have lots of defence!

Its like clockwork..

The only advice I will give you is dont just buy any dog. Go to a professional who will either sell you what you want or point you in the right direction...and it will probably cost you more then $2000 if your really serious about getting the right dog.


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## RockyK9 (Dec 9, 2014)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I always enjoy these threads...
> 
> It takes soo long to train one!
> Its a HUGE liability!
> ...


 Oh man I missed seeing those points called out here. But I agree with it potentially being a huge liability . Where it say IPO dogs aren't real and Showline for defence????


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Give it time . 
The liability is no higher then just owning any dog, unless you feel the need to tell your insurer about all that bite training in which case they will likely drop you or boost your premiums to unaffordable heights... As to the risk factor of the dog being more likely to bite someone then most pets, its negligable or if anything lower.


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## RockyK9 (Dec 9, 2014)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Give it time .
> The liability is no higher then just owning any dog, unless you feel the need to tell your insurer about all that bite training in which case they will likely drop you or boost your premiums to unaffordable heights... As to the risk factor of the dog being more likely to bite someone then most pets, its negligable or if anything lower.


 The liability is certainly higher. Owning a dog such as this and not knowing how to handle it as an example. It would not help in court if it was determined the dog attacked someone and was trained to do so. It makes a big difference. I would not say the risk of a bite is lower at all.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

the risk is probably the temperament and nerve of the dog, regardless...not all dogs are good to go to be proofed in protection. stable nerve, obedience is most important, then the training methods come next. Whether it is PP, IPO,PSA,SDA ...the dog must be able to handle pressure.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

mattpayne said:


> The liability is certainly higher. Owning a dog such as this and not knowing how to handle it as an example. It would not help in court if it was determined the dog attacked someone and was trained to do so. It makes a big difference. I would not say the risk of a bite is lower at all.


I would say your wrong based on real world experience. 

Your nerve bag pet is much more likely to bite some innocent then a stable dog that has some training.

How many protection trained dogs have you heard about attacking people?

How much protection training have you done?


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## RockyK9 (Dec 9, 2014)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I would say your wrong based on real world experience.
> 
> Your nerve bag pet is much more likely to bite some innocent then a stable dog that has some training.
> 
> ...


 I would say you are wrong based on the legal facts and your right to use force and or reasonable force to stop a threat to yourself or anyone else (using a trained PP Dog) The threat would have to lead a reasonable person to believe significant bodily harm is likely to occur etc.. If it bites regardless of why or how you will be in court. 

I agree a "nerve bag" dog is more likely to bite without provocation. 

I have not heard of many PP dogs randomly attacking people but that's not really what is in question. 

I have done IPO training , observed PP training . Both very different application. Night and day to me. How much PP training have you seen done? 

We can agree to disagree but we probably both would agree that getting a dog with stable nerves , good genetics would be a great start and be more deterent than most need.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

David Taggart said:


> Right... I tried to read your post more attentively. No, you cannot teach your dog just to bark and growl without him coming into action.
> 
> Actually yes you can, it's just another game
> 
> ...


If you are buying a dog purely for the intimidation factor, please reconsider. A dog is a lifelong commitment, look forward to a devoted companion for 10-15 years. 
That said, teaching a dog to bark and growl on command is actually simple. Teach speak, using a non verbal command. 
Sabi was a PPD and I could light her up any time I liked with a 'tsst'. Great for those times when I just wanted her to make some noise.
What breeder are you getting your dog from? And is it an older dog or a pup?


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## lawhyno (Mar 9, 2013)

In response to the OP's question...
All I can do is speak for myself. I like spending the time with my dogs. They love doing protection work. It's a good workout and they outlet that pent up energy. It's a fun hobby for me. 
Honestly, I don't see a situation in life where I'd need to alert my dog to attack someone. My dogs would definitely protect me if they saw me in distress. I don't need to teach this. 
If you're looking for a dog to protect you and your home, you can find it. Do the research and find the dog with the right genetics. High territorial aggression, solid nerves, a little sharp... it's out there. Sure there's a liability factor but there's many responsible owners who like there dogs with that type of edge. 

best.


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