# Rough Year for Grim. Sigh



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Well It has really been a rough year - smooth sailing up until last Jan when things just started going wrong-over the past year:

Knocks out front teeth on tree
Trip to ER vet for unusual mailaise leads to diagnosis of
enlarged spleen
enlarged prostate
spondylosis
"negative" for tick titers

Subsequently he is neutered and ultrasound of spleen is normal as is VDI screening test
He breaks toe
He cuts foot which gets infected badly enough to be on antibiotics and require daily soaks and bandaging.
Through all this we still manage to take and pass our NAPWDA cadaver recert but right now I have pulled him from work:


We are finally over all these and I am watching him move and he has a wobbliness in his hocks and stiffness (walking with rear legs in a wide stance as opposed to center tracking) which was not there before. He is powerful running but turning, even in the house, quite unstable. He is even having trouble jumping on the sofa. This from a dog who could fly into the back of a pick up truck not that long ago.
Back to the vet next week. I fear DM, but wonder of the other options or if it could be the spondylosis. The instability seems to be most around the hock. I am still going to ask her about putting him on high dose doxy for awhile because I know tick diseases can do much of the above. I just feel sick.

Oh, Grim you are not EVEN 9 yet


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## Avorow (Jul 18, 2008)

I am so sorry for your poor Grim, here is hoping the ABX set him right!


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> Back to the vet next week. I fear DM, but wonder of the other options or if it could be the spondylosis. The instability seems to be most around the hock. I am still going to ask her about putting him on high dose doxy for awhile because I know tick diseases can do much of the above. I just feel sick.
> 
> Oh, Grim you are not EVEN 9 yet


We just lost one of our 9 year olds to DM. Thinking back the first sign was a lot of licking on the inside of his rear leg then dragging the rear toe. Then not seeming to know where his feet were placed. It progressed far to rapidly.  My heart is still broken. Sending my best wishes your way. I hope it is not DM!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

It is a horrible disease - right now I am trying not to get ahead of myself -the vet tested him for knuckling as part of routine exam a few months ago and he was good. I tried and he tried to sit down on me but was confused with what I was doing. I am going to ask about the genetic test because it is a lot less expensive than the MRI...but it could be so many things. Clearly x-rays will be in order.

Grim is THAT dog. The one who has been in my heart more than any other dog. He feels fine. He is very good at telling me when he does not feel good -- probably the one dog who I think I will clearly know when the time will come either sooner or (hopefully) later.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

I'm sorry that Grim is having such a rough year.Hopes and prayers for him to be ok and stay healthy.


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## Angelina03 (Jan 9, 2012)

I'm sorry you're suffering with Grim. I hope he will be okay.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

How old is Grim?

Poor boy....poor YOU! I hope everything is OK. And yes, I think spondylosis can cause some of those problems.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

There's a quick-and-dirty test my vet showed me to give you an idea about DM. While he's standing, take one of his back feet and turn it under so that the tops of the toes are on the ground and the bottom of the foot is facing up. If he leaves it like that it could be DM. If he quickly sets it back down the right way again, it's most likely not. Of course it's not a 100% positive test but my vet says it's one of the first thing he does when deciding whether to do further testing.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> It is a horrible disease - right now I am trying not to get ahead of myself -the vet tested him for knuckling as part of routine exam a few months ago and he was good. I tried and he tried to sit down on me but was confused with what I was doing. I am going to ask about the genetic test because it is a lot less expensive than the MRI...but it could be so many things. Clearly x-rays will be in order.
> 
> Grim is THAT dog. The one who has been in my heart more than any other dog. He feels fine. He is very good at telling me when he does not feel good -- probably the one dog who I think I will clearly know when the time will come either sooner or (hopefully) later.


Shadow was that dog for me. He was my Shadow from the day we brought him home. Always by my side. Always with his tail wagging. The day he couldn't lift his tail to wag it anymore was the day I knew..He was tired of struggling but was doing it for me. We spent the day doing all his favorite things (at least the ones he could still do) I totally spoiled him rotton that day. Then my husband and I drove him to the vet that evening and we both stayed with him until the last. He loved the vet, and I like to think he was not afraid. He had been my loyal sweatheart for so long it was the least I could to to let him die with dignity, while was still able to walk into the vet. I'm still so lost. Buddy, his brother is laying with his head on my lap right now as the tears roll down my face. I have lost dogs before and it is always hard but this time, I can't even describe how big a part of me is missing. It won't be easy but you will know when it is time. I hope your Grim has a long time left!!!


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## Wolfiesmom (Apr 10, 2010)

Poor Grim. I hope he feels better soon.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Emoore said:


> There's a quick-and-dirty test my vet showed me to give you an idea about DM. While he's standing, take one of his back feet and turn it under so that the tops of the toes are on the ground and the bottom of the foot is facing up. If he leaves it like that it could be DM. If he quickly sets it back down the right way again, it's most likely not. Of course it's not a 100% positive test but my vet says it's one of the first thing he does when deciding whether to do further testing.


Vet did about a month ago and he set it right quickly. First time I tried he yanked his foot away. Second time he tried to sit on the hand and was not very happy with it.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

shepherdmom said:


> Shadow was that dog for me. He was my Shadow from the day we brought him home. Always by my side. Always with his tail wagging. The day he couldn't lift his tail to wag it anymore was the day I knew..He was tired of struggling but was doing it for me. We spent the day doing all his favorite things (at least the ones he could still do) I totally spoiled him rotton that day. Then my husband and I drove him to the vet that evening and we both stayed with him until the last. He loved the vet, and I like to think he was not afraid. He had been my loyal sweatheart for so long it was the least I could to to let him die with dignity, while was still able to walk into the vet. I'm still so lost. Buddy, his brother is laying with his head on my lap right now as the tears roll down my face. I have lost dogs before and it is always hard but this time, I can't even describe how big a part of me is missing. It won't be easy but you will know when it is time. I hope your Grim has a long time left!!!


I am so sorry for you and Shadow-Oh, you are making me cry (but we would be missing part of us if we couldn't feel) - yes, I do think Grim will tell me because he is such an exhuberant happy dog and when he got constipated from the prostate gland he turned into a sad dog who wanted nothing more than to lay with his head on my lap.....


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Oh Grim will be 9 in August. He can still flat out run with power and speed on a flat but last night had trouble getting on the sofa! He was OFA Good at 2 and his hips seem fine and he has a great range of motion on those back legs. 

His hocks look kind of like those pictures you see of really bad showdogs (the exagerrated ones whose hips wobble)--he used to single track on a trot and now his legs move straighter and he does not seem to have real good sideways control of them. He has fallen a couple of times too.

-----

Edit - well we have an appt. Monday at 430.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I really hope that the two of you get a break from any kind or form of health issues and injuries. Poor Grim. Get better boy!!! 
And i hope that the wobbling is nothing serious either.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

jocoyn said:


> Vet did about a month ago and he set it right quickly. First time I tried he yanked his foot away. Second time he tried to sit on the hand and was not very happy with it.


Oh, that's a really good sign then.


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## KSdogowner (Jun 22, 2011)

Nancy, I am very sorry to hear that Grim has been having a rough and challenging year. Hopefully, the wobbling is a minor issue that can be resolved quickly with a good Chiropractic adjustment. Hugs


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## GSDLoverII (May 12, 2004)

PRAYERS FOR GRIM AND YOU!:angel::angel:


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> I am so sorry for you and Shadow-Oh, you are making me cry (but we would be missing part of us if we couldn't feel) - yes, I do think Grim will tell me because he is such an exhuberant happy dog and when he got constipated from the prostate gland he turned into a sad dog who wanted nothing more than to lay with his head on my lap.....


Enjoy every day you have with Grim.  They are moments to be treasured!!! If it is DM, one thing I found,that I believe helped my Shadow to feel better and last a little longer was Vitamine E. My vet recommended and you can pick up anywhere. Not only did it seem to give him a little more energy but he loved it. Keeping my fingers crossed for you and Grim.


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## iBaman (Oct 25, 2011)

hopefully it's just an ear infection or something throwing off his balance <3


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## GSDLoverII (May 12, 2004)

Sending positive thoughts and prayers your way today. :angel:


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

GSDLoverII said:


> Sending positive thoughts and prayers your way today. :angel:


Thank you. It has gotten worse over the weekend. He can run and trot fine but can barely hold up his back end just walking. His legs are everywhere. 

He seems quite cheerful and wants to play ball so bad but I am limiting him. I am looking for toe dragging though and there are no signs of it....


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Oh jeez. Not Grim. 

How does his neck seem? How is his front end? 

I know the back/spine/disc stuff can show up with this kind of thing. Cushing's/Addison's. 

Then all of this stuff: Motor or Motion Problems - VetInfo

And of course other things we will not speak of, because given his back issues, it is a good possibility he may have popped a disc or something. 

It might be nice for a PT type vet to give him a going over, too.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

I'm sorry to hear about Grim...such a strong boy and a hard worker.

How about artheritis setting in? My dads male developed artheritis in his spine, in addition to his hips, which basically causes him to almost not know his legs are there and he will drag them...meds have helped manage this.

Sending prayers to you & Grim.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

More: Back Pain Causes - Back Pain Center - Everydayhealth.com

I saw someone posted a link about Wobbler's too, that and Cauda Equina are things I know nothing of, just that they exist.

I like to have a big list and have my vet tell me why it can or cannot be things on my list.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

His front end seems fine ...... he does have spondylosis though and I wonder about that but I figure x-rays are number one thing to do......very nervous


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Hi Jocoyn I don't know if this will be of any help or not -

Conversations with equine massage practitioners , at a health conference that I participated in , introduced me to paddles which have lights that produce far infrared light , held over an area will give relief.

some information on the theory Far Infrared Therapy - FIR, Heat Therapy, Cancer, History, Benefits

FAR INFRARED MEDICAL, THERAPEUTIC, NATURAL & ALTERNATIVE THERAPIES

Far Infrared for Skin Disorders

I am looking to find one of these for myself Infrared Led Therapy - Lightworks

I had bought my dad a mat which was a mattress cover , then bedding over it . He had been in a wheelchair for years and so would seize up and get sore and not get sleep. With the mat he would get a deep rest , wake up restored and less sore and stiff . That is my experience.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Well the vet agrees there is certainly a problem but his propioception and reflexes worked out well (she did some feeling, pulling, moving, and the toe bending test)...She said it could be anything from a disk injury, to a bilaterial cruciate tear, to a tick issue, to DM - not likely to be the spondylosis though.....Anyway she got me in to the specialist tomorrow because it could be injury...and that normally we go from most likely to the unusual in our search. 

Even with the titres we ran in Sept with the enlarged spleen she wants to run again and agrees to go with a round of doxy if nothing conclusive comes from our trip.

She did not take x-rays today - said they would take their own anyway and sedating the dog two days in a row plus the expense...why do that?

So not much closer but at least we got in.


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## GSDLoverII (May 12, 2004)

Hang in there.
{{{Hugs}}}
:angel:


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Thanks..it is several hours away and i am bawling my eyes out


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Thoughts and prayers for you and Grim.


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## GSDLoverII (May 12, 2004)

Keep checking back and praying for good news.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

GSDLoverII said:


> Keep checking back and praying for good news.


Ditto. Let us know how the boy is doing.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

We got back from the specialist without a definitive answer.

He has knocked hemangiosarcoma way down on the list. between the negative VDI test end of the year and a now normal size spleen and no signs of any cancer on the x-rays we decided not to go further down that path for now.

There are no skeletal issues and both knees are good. TODAY the left leg showed some knuckling [did not yesterday] but that was the leg that was injured a few weeks ago but then that response is also typical of DM.

So, DM is still there as a very real possibility and he collected a sample and sent it in for the DNA test. The relatively sudden onset, though, still has us looking at other options. Just a month ago he was jumping up on counters in a workshop and climbing all over lumber piles with no issues.

He also pulled another set of tick titers [we did this in August when the spleen was enlarged] and put Grim on Doxycycline 300mg daily as well as prednisone 20mg {we have to wait a day longer as he was on metacam} and between now and Friday I am going to log daily notes of any progress or lack therof...It was a very bad summer for ticks last year and I pulled any number of them off of him, some engorged. 

He had not ruled out some type of soft tissue injury/nerve damage that would not show up on an x-ray which is why the prednisone. In terms of the x-ray the spondylosis is not that bad and more in the thoracic region than the lumbar. The hips are very good, which surprised me at pushing 9. [he was ofa good at 2].

If there is a change for the better then it was NOT DM. If there is a change for the worse I pick up the phone and he goes in immediately. For now he is 100% crate rest with walks on short lead only. ... I am just going to move his crate to my office and keep the other dogs out.

I like that he was not pushing all the diagnostic everything they had; he said that before we get into MRIs and Myelograms we should see how the simple path works because if it is DM anyway, well....that may be our worse worry but one we can wait to find out.

So I guess it is a slow process of elimination.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Have you considered finding a chiropractor?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I am not sure there are any spinal issues. Everything looked good - good spaces between the vertebrae-good alignment- - I want to aim at the obvoius first and the tick disease and DM seem to be the highest on the list even before I went in the door (well hemangiosarcoma was heavy on my mind because of the spleen from August)


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## KSdogowner (Jun 22, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> I am not sure there are any spinal issues. Everything looked good - good spaces between the vertebrae-good alignment- - I want to aim at the obvoius first and the tick disease and DM seem to be the highest on the list even before I went in the door (well hemangiosarcoma was heavy on my mind because of the spleen from August)


So glad to hear hemangiosarcoma is off the table. Here is to hoping they will find the source of Grim's discomfort quickly so that treatment can take place. Thank you for keeping us posted. :hugs:


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## GSDLoverII (May 12, 2004)

Still praying for our boys.
Both of them. :angel::angel:


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Me too!:fingerscrossed::hugs:


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> There are no skeletal issues and both knees are good. TODAY the left leg showed some knuckling [did not yesterday] but that was the leg that was injured a few weeks ago but then that response is also typical of DM.
> 
> So, DM is still there as a very real possibility and he collected a sample and sent it in for the DNA test. The relatively sudden onset, though, still has us looking at other options. Just a month ago he was jumping up on counters in a workshop and climbing all over lumber piles with no issues.
> 
> He also pulled another set of tick titers [we did this in August when the spleen was enlarged] and put Grim on Doxycycline 300mg daily as well as prednisone 20mg {we have to wait a day longer as he was on metacam} and between now and Friday I am going to log daily notes of any progress or lack therof...It was a very bad summer for ticks last year and I pulled any number of them off of him, some engorged.


I hope hope hope that this turns out to be something else... but what you are describing from the fast onset, to the good xrays, to the doxy for possible tick diease is the exact same path we walked. I pray for a better outcome for you and Grim.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I know, but I am trying not to worry too much about something I have no control over...


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Doxy 300mg daily is low, and then you habve him on pred, which will also interfere, to some degree with the doxy. 

There are a couple ehrlichias in the south that aren't usually on tick panels, and in other states there have found ehrlichia-like organisms for which they don't have tests for, so just be aware that a negative tick panel doesn't mean a whole lot.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Look at the tick panel that was run...does it include two Babesias? Bartonella (which is very hard to find?), multiple ehrlichias? Even if it does, there are things out there that will not show up on the tick panel....

In the south, these other two ehrlichias are common, and probably won't show up on your panel:

Seroprevalence of Ehrlichia canis, Ehrlichia chaffeensis and 
Ehrlichia ewingii in dogs in North America. 
Beall MJ, Alleman AR, Breitschwerdt EB, Cohn LA, Couto CG, 
Dryden MW, Guptill LC, Iazbik C, Kania SA, Lathan P, Little 
SE, Roy A, Sayler KA, Stillman BA, Welles EG, Wolfson W, 
Yabsley MJ. 
Parasite & Vectors, 5(1):29, online before print, February 8, 2012. 
http://dx.doi.org/10.1186/ 1756-3305- 5-29 
Abstract 
•Background 
This study evaluated the exposure of dogs to three different 
Ehrlichia spp. in the south and central regions of the 
United States where vector-borne disease prevalence has been 
previously difficult to ascertain, particularly beyond the 
metropolitan areas. 
•Methods 
Dog blood samples (n=8,662) were submitted from 14 
veterinary colleges, 6 private veterinary practices and 4 
diagnostic laboratories across this region. Samples were 
tested for E. canis, E. chaffeensis and E. ewingii specific 
antibodies using peptide microtiter ELISAs. 
•Results 
Overall, E. canis, E. chaffeensis and E. ewingii 
seroprevalence was 0.8%, 2.8%, and 5.1%, respectively. The 
highest E. canis seroprevalence (2.3%) was found in a region 
encompassing Arkansas, Louisiana, Oklahoma, Tennessee and 
Texas. E. chaffeensis seroreactivity was 6.6% in the central 
region (Arkansas, Kansas, Missouri, and Oklahoma) and 4.6% 
in the southeast region (Georgia, Maryland, North Carolina, 
South Carolina, Tennessee and Virginia). Seroreactivity to 
E. ewingii was also highest in the central region (14.6%) 
followed by the southeast region (5.9%). The geospatial 
pattern derived from E. chaffeensis and E. ewingii 
seropositive samples was similar to previous reports based 
on E. chaffeensis seroreactivity in white-tailed deer and 
the distribution of human monocytic ehrlichiosis (HME) cases 
reported by the CDC. 
•Conclusions 
The results of this study provide the first large scale 
regional documentation of exposure to E. canis, E. 
chaffeensis and E. ewingii in pet dogs, highlighting 
regional differences in seroprevalence and providing the 
basis for heightened awareness of these emerging 
vector-borne pathogens by veterinarians and public health 
agencies. 
http://dx.doi.org/10.1186/ 1756-3305- 5-29 
Free, full text of this open access article (pdf file, 774 kb): 
http://www.parasitesandvectors. com/content/ pdf/1756- 3305-5-29. pdf 
Back to top


There are new ehrlichia species that are showing up in places, for which we do not test for, because there are no tests yet.....

MMS: Error

Treat the dog, not the test.....


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Right now he seems to be improving on the short course. The tick panels are trickling in as negative but he said no improvement would be noticed if it was the DM. This morning he was not knuckling with the test and his hocks were not wobbling. Of course observations can be subjective but my husband said he was moving much better as well though not 100% normal. He has always been a bit klutzy and wiggly in the back end though....walks with a sashay even though his spine and hips are and always have been good. Perhaps an angulation thing.

Of course the crate rest means I am not having much time to watch him moving. But there was a pole in yard which he lifted his back legs over without a thought so he knows where they are.

I have to agree that about 2years ago he had some wonky kidney numbers-in August a very enlarged spleen, now normal and also a "medullary rim sign" which so far does not seem to have clinical significance. He gets into rural areas most pets do not go and swamps and all kinds of nasty places, too. .... These are some sort of smoking guns. I think most of the tests are antibody tests which means he may have something and has not seroconverted. I know they are VERY specific from working with blood tests for infectious diseases at work - variants the don't/can't get picked up. Specificity -...

DM, yes, I do know it is a real possibility but there is nothing I can do about that other than manage it if he has the genes for it.

Injury-well that could help with the steroids.

He is tolerating both drugs remarkably well. No nausea or diarreah.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Some interesting links to explore further-arguments for doxy ticks notwithstanding if it is DM: (1) DM to Multiple Sclerosis link and (2) Multiple Sclerosis and Doxycycline

Hmmmm worth more research indeed

Degenerative Myelopathy and Excitotoxins - Bad News for Big Dogs

Adding Antibiotics To Medication May Slow MS


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Still sending good thoughts and prayers for a fixable diagnosis. Take care both you and Grim.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Many believe that MS is induced by Lyme, or at least some infectious disease. 

Very encouraging that you are both seeing signs of improvement. I hope it's "real" and contintues :fingerscrossed:


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I sure don't know. So much is subjective and I understand, if DM, variable. He was wobbling a little yesterday afternoon but has definitely been good on the toe test again last night. He kept yanking his feet away and when a turned them immediately righted them.

His tail is very much active and wagging. I know a limp tail can be one of the signs.

Wet himself in his crate yesterday too, but when I took him out he had a full bladder. That concerns me This morning though he was dry as a bone and did not have to go when I took him out. 

He seemed to be moving ok as well. Will update after breakfast. We have appt today a 1pm....I was thinking of postponing until Tuesday which would be fine with them but I think I will keep the appt so they can see him before the weekend.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Ate well - good toe reflexes this am.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

LisaT said:


> Many believe that MS is induced by Lyme, or at least some infectious disease.
> 
> Very encouraging that you are both seeing signs of improvement. I hope it's "real" and contintues :fingerscrossed:


It sounds like a combination of a genetic predispoisition and a triggering event from what I have been reading. I have really not been too immersing myself in it until we hear back on the DNA test.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Todays vet trip was not so encouraging. -- all titers were negative for ticks (though I do understand that there really could be something under the radar but the vets are not keyed into that - however I have some history with diagnostic antibody and antigen testing and have a clear understanding of limiations based on infectious disease variants) and we are going to continue to explore the following other options

*Wait for DM DNA test - if "positive" then proceed down that road. If negative look at other options:*

Myelogram to look for compression of spinal column somewhere. Could be injury could be tumor. He said a myelogram can narrow down he area then hone in with MRI.

Today's physical exam - he said that if injury or tick disease he would have expected more significant imrpovement than what he saw given the antibiotics and the prednisone. We are still going to continue with crate rest and the drugs until the DM results come in. Mmmmm, kind of down... Going on a cadaver search tomorrow without Grim. Beau is coming along to ride in the truck and afterward we will do some training with the boxes...I hate not being able to take him.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Oh god, please don't let it be DM. Let it be something harmless. It would be heartbreaking if a dog like him would have it.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

If he does I will be researching the stem cell thing.
Given his age and excellent health/fitness I imagine he would be a good candiate

Noooo he is the nicest sweetest dog. He loves everyone yet is a real working dog.

You know people get all in a wad about hips but 9 year old Cyra has SEVERE HD and is bouncing around like a very agile puppy...there are so many OTHER issues that are partially genetic like this - you have to be genetically inclined to it AND have some sort of event that breaks it loose.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Are you having the myelogram done? 

I have seen significant rear end problems due to spondylosis and also nerve issues compounded by spondylosis in my friend's older male. My old girl is definitely weak in the rear due to spondylosis. Her rear goes out from under her sometimes from it too. But, I have not seen real wobbly hocky issues with her. 

I sure hope it is not something major.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Continued prayers for you and Grim for the test to be negative.

Maggi


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Samba said:


> Are you having the myelogram done?
> 
> I have seen significant rear end problems due to spondylosis and also nerve issues compounded by spondylosis in my friend's older male. My old girl is definitely weak in the rear due to spondylosis. Her rear goes out from under her sometimes from it too. But, I have not seen real wobbly hocky issues with her.
> 
> I sure hope it is not something major.


Myelogram comes after the DM test results come in. If we are negative for that. He said the location of the spondylosis is only thoracic and not an impact. He also went up and down the spine pushing on either side no signs of discomfort and he was nto easy on him-he was pushing everywhere.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

jocoyn said:


> Today's physical exam - he said that if injury or tick disease he would have expected more significant imrpovement than what he saw given the antibiotics and the prednisone. We are still going to continue with crate rest and the drugs until the DM results come in. .


While it may or may not be something else, your vet is wrong here. 

The dose of doxy is low. Can't remember Grimm's weight, but I think the dose is not even the regular conservative dose. And then he's on pred, so it's going to handcuff the ability for doxy to do it's job. 

At a low dose, doxy inhibits growth of bacteria, it does not kill it, it then leaves it up to the immune system to keep in check. At the same time you are suppressing with pred, and that's a healthy dose of pred (healthy not in a good way). 

I would hate for the drugs to be called a failure when you haven't even come close to the aggressive dose, and the pred dose is still high. When Max was so illl, he did need pred, but, at 83 lbs, he was given 2.5 mg every other day, and the aggressive dose of doxy. 

The mext thing to remember is that if this is doxy responsive infection, he's probably had it a long time, is chronic and stealthy, and is not what your vet is used to seeing. 

So, just saying, don't be too discouraged yet. You've seen some positive results in a short amount of time. Your vets discouraging words aren't really based on anything sound, at least at this point. Give it some time. You may be back in the same place next week, disapponted and discouraged, but on such a wimpy dose of doxy that is hampered with the pred, you aren't going to see real dramatic improvement. I wish he would have just went with the doxy. That Grim had the urinary accident says that he is having side effects from the pred. 

Of course, if the DM test is positive, it does not mean DM, nor does it mean it couldn't be both...


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> If he does I will be researching the stem cell thing.
> Given his age and excellent health/fitness I imagine he would be a good candiate


Do it quickly. Shadow started out very much like you describe with Grim, but he went down so quickly. One day vet and I were researching the compound medicine the next day he woke up and couldn't lift his tail anymore and struggled to stand. I knew he was out of time. I kept my head in the sand for too long.  We tried the Doxy we were going for a three month course. He seemed to get better at first but after the second month is was clear it wasn't working and that was when we started to look for something different. Vitamine E helped, Exercise helped, but one thing I haven't seen you mention, but Shadow started doing this was to twitch his hind legs, when he was sleeping. I saw it described in one of the DM symptoms link as being like palsy but it was different. It was almost like he was running after rabbits in his sleep but more. We had an appointment that Saturday with a nutritionist to get him onto the special diet mentioned iin the study but by Thursday it was clear that it was too late. From the first symptoms, to xrays and diagnosis to the time we had to put him down was about 4 months total.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I have to head out this am - This article contains a lot of what Lisa said.
Tick-Borne Disease FAQ

I think the direction will hinge on what the DM test and Myelogram (if ordered) say. So at 70lbs, Grim would be taking 7-100 mg pills a day. [the only bird doxy I can find is 100mg] for approx 1 month trial.......so only a few days which will be time for me to go ahead and order it and get it in. 

I see vitamin E is good for DM but is mentioned here as a problem (immune function) for the tick disease (what is high dose?) I have been giving Vitamin E 400mg once a week because of the salmon oil and noticed a coincidental harder day for him right after the weekly Vitamin E - I think some give that much Vitamin E daily and I think the Clemmons protocol calls for a lot of Vitamin E...well gotta start getting ready for the search.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

*Degenerative Myelopathy? TICKS? TUMORS? INJURY?*

One thing that has bugged me on our diagnosis is the ONLY difference in his run is extension of the rear legs is less. We know the hips are very good. His trot is ok, too and both are stable on uneven terrain. Where I see the motion issues is on the walk....is that typical? I hear about moderate excercise with DM but he is already used to (not for a few weeks) high speed ball play twice a day for about 10-15 minutes. Is that bad if he does have DM? Obviously we ar not doing while pending myelogram to see if other issues.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> I have to head out this am - This article contains a lot of what Lisa said.
> Tick-Borne Disease FAQ
> 
> I think the direction will hinge on what the DM test and Myelogram (if ordered) say. So at 70lbs, Grim would be taking 7-100 mg pills a day. [the only bird doxy I can find is 100mg] for approx 1 month trial.......so only a few days which will be time for me to go ahead and order it and get it in.
> ...


Shadow took 3 tablets of the Doxi daily. He was 92 lbs. Tick diease was one of the first things we thought of because we had lost another dog to babesiosis and valley fever about 7 years ago. However since we have lived in an area with no ticks for those 7 years...Also when that happened we tested other dogs with the desert panel for tick problems and non of them had them. 

The Vitamine E that we put Shadow on was 1000 IU's. It seemed to give him more energy and more strength for his hind end at least for a while. easy exercise daily also helped. The more he used it the easier it seemed for him to move, up until that last day when he just woke up and it was clear that he was tired of fighting it. He could no longer wag his tail and getting up was such a struggle. I couldn't let my boy suffer so we spent the day doing all the things he loved and then that evening my husband and I took him into the vet while he was still able to walk in on his own and had him put to sleep. Even our vet and her tech were crying. It was the hardest thing I ever had to do, its not the first time we've had to put dogs to sleep but usually they were older and sicker. Shadow was just so healthy except his back end just wouldn't work.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> One thing that has bugged me on our diagnosis is the ONLY difference in his run is extension of the rear legs is less. We know the hips are very good. His trot is ok, too and both are stable on uneven terrain. Where I see the motion issues is on the walk....is that typical? I hear about moderate excercise with DM but he is already used to (not for a few weeks) high speed ball play twice a day for about 10-15 minutes. Is that bad if he does have DM? Obviously we ar not doing while pending myelogram to see if other issues.


Shadows run was perfectly normal up until the last couple of weeks.. It was only walking where he seemed to have problems with falling down. High speed ball was Shadow's favorite game. We played it right up till the end. The vet said exercise was good so we continued to play. One of the signs the end was near was when he started having problems going after the ball.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

shepherdmom said:


> ....one thing I haven't seen you mention, but Shadow started doing this was to twitch his hind legs, when he was sleeping. I saw it described in one of the DM symptoms link as being like palsy but it was different. It was almost like he was running after rabbits in his sleep but more......


I don't think this is related to DM. My Max did this for his last several months.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

jocoyn said:


> .....I see vitamin E is good for DM but is mentioned here as a problem (immune function) for the tick disease (what is high dose?) I have been giving Vitamin E 400mg once a week because of the salmon oil and noticed a coincidental harder day for him right after the weekly Vitamin E - I think some give that much Vitamin E daily and I think the Clemmons protocol calls for a lot of Vitamin E...well gotta start getting ready for the search.


I read that not too long ago, and I don't think it's really an issue, except it can thin the blood and maybe make bleeding worse. So, I think it's bad when bleeding is a problem, at least that is the conclusion that I came to. I did stop Max's extra vitamin E because he had some sores that would spontaneously bleed, so any of the anti-coagulants, I stopped. I also added a little extra vit K and b vitamins since the production of those is compromised when on antibiotics.

You're right about the dosage of the doxy - seems like a lot, but GSDs are big dogs.

That extension issue can be low back misalignment. chiro care can help *if* that's what is going on there.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

LisaT said:


> I don't think this is related to DM. My Max did this for his last several months.


idk? From some of the research I did... " Initially, the dog does not seem to realize what position his rear legs are in; soon he will begin to drag his toenails and the top part of his paws, and may tremble as if palsied" gsdmyelopathyfredlanting

from another site... "As DM becomes more advanced, in early late-stage DM, uncontrolled jerkiness of the rear legs and tail signals that the nerve impulses are going haywire and short- circuiting. Kicking out with the rear legs, without reason, will be observed"
The Viewer Viewpoint - The Stages of Degenerative Myelopathy

BTW I found another database site to enter DM info for anyone interested. Heaven's Gate


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Right now my sequence is


order bird biotic have on standby
wait for results of DM genetic test
If positive -call the stem cell folks, research nutritional support, talk with local k9 chiro and holistic vet as traditional vets will be little help.
Do more research on giving DM dog doxy long term [get human MS study] and also look at Clemmons and at dextromethorphan studies [on this forum someone mentioned glucosamine contraindicated but I think Clemmons uses it...hmmmm]

If negative proceed to myelogram. Vet indicated the myeleogram will help pinpoint the location better if there is a spinal cord issue so that it can be focused on with the MRI
If fixable injury, fix it
If cancerous tumor, no not go radiation route - per vet 6-8K with very low success rate for longer than a few months
Consider other holistic supplements



If no clear smoking gun - k9 Chiro and Acupuncture as well as the doxy blast (which we may still do if no issues with the others and after we know better what is going on)


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I didn't think DM had a sudden onset? 

So weird, and you are being very comprehensive, so hopefully you will find a cause.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

The rapid onset is part of what makes this strange. .. If I look back I do remember some minor nail scraping on walks this past summer but no uneven nail wair or scraping of toes. 

I look at his rear gait and his tendance is to widen his stance on his rear legs when walking - which we thought was some arthritis which it is not. The balance and coordiation issues were, however, within the pat few weeks.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I hate this kind of thing. You never know and then never know what to "wish" it is. 

I will say that with my back, I can have some pretty odd gaits on some days.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

And that injury he had early January where he caught his foot, flipped off the deck and onto his back about a foot lower than the deck - no limping but the vet felt any inflammation from that would be taken care of by the steroids - but perhaps a subtle misalignment-he did not see on x-ray? -- but then we saw the slightly stiff walking gait beore that (but not the balance issues)

... And I am still NOT discouting the tick theory (or other unknown infectious substance)...if you had seen some of the areas where he has worked...rank fetid water, swamps...just ruling out the mainline clinical issues first....but his exposure most assuredly is higher than the typical pet.

One thing for SAR dogs is I know too many who have died from stuff they got that you would never think to test for --- I know of one in NC who died from pseudorabies -- quite uncommon and it took NC State to diagnose that one...There is no cure so even if he got it early it would not have mattered, but the dog could have suffered for less time. A lot from cancer after working floodwaters, too.

But DM, honestly, is a very real possibility so I have to be prepared for it. I hate the thought of it but I am going to order the kit from OFA and swab Beau soon for it [once I get past all this though! I can't take another crushing blow right now]


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

shepherdmom said:


> ...from another site... "As DM becomes more advanced, in early late-stage DM, uncontrolled jerkiness of the rear legs and tail signals that the nerve impulses are going haywire and short- circuiting. Kicking out with the rear legs, without reason, will be observed"[/FONT]
> The Viewer Viewpoint - The Stages of Degenerative Myelopathy
> [/url]


I guess my point was that it's not necessarily DM that this points too. My old girl did this all her life, she had a neuromuscular disease induced by her lyme vaccine and also probably infection. My GSD did this at the end stage, and he had a combination of things, including infection, AND, back issues that were helped with chiro care. I absolutely believe it's a nervous system issue, but the cause of the disease process seems to be very varied. 

Nancy, my girl indy had the foot drag problem, and problems righting it. She did not have DM. She stumbled a bit, and had many of the neuro-motor problems that you describe. She had heart issues, but this was not related to that. In the end, I controllled most of her symptoms with doxy, as a quality of life issue. I do not know what it was doing, but at that point, it didn't matter, as she didn't tolerate most meds. But with the doxy, her leg didn't drag, she could "right" her paw, and she wasn't afraid of the dark. W/o the doxy, all of those things got worse. 

In the end, it was a brain stem lesion that killed her. The first thought was that it was a brain tumor. However, bloodwork was consistent with something other than cancer. I blame Bartonella, but it's unknown. I asked my dad's oncologist about the bloodwork, and he thought it was nuts that anyone would say it was cancer. 

I'm a big believer in doing whatever diagnostics make sense, the dog will tolerate, and you can afford. And then, treat the dog, not the tests, and I know what you know what I mean by that. Hopefully all those diagnostics give you a clue. With max, they gave me a clue on how to treat, but they never gave any answers until it had morphed in the end. 

Like Jean, I'm not sure what to hope for and not hope for. I guess I am not hoping for DM, and a whole lotta other things.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Jocoyn Im still hoping that everything just heals up on Grim. He sounds like a one of kind boy and a great SAR dog. Until I came on this forum Id never heard of DM or the the different illnesses and sometimes I wish I still didn't but I wanted to know so I could help my two and make informed decisions.I have learned alot thanks to many of you guys . Prayers to St Francis for you and your boy.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I *really* appreciate the helpful and thoughts and suggestions and prayers. They mean so much. I have faced these kinds of issues with dogs 11-14 and lost a young dog who was only a year old. You expect these things later...not with a dog who is not all that old and in his working prime. And a dog who has to be the sweetest dog on the face of the earth. Honest. Everyone who meets Grim falls in love with him. I call him my "Pointy eared lab"

But, then, life is like that and I think part of why the Good Lord partners us with dogs is they remind us how to live in the here and now. They don't worry. Something so hard for us humans to do.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

I'm so sorry you're having all these problems with Grim.

Ringer had some similar problems during his lifetime. The day after his 3rd birthday I noticed that his gait looked strange. I took took him back to the vet time after time after time. He kept getting worse, they did a lot of tests ... nothing. He did test positive for toxoplasmosis and was treated for it, but if I recall it had nothing to do with the other problem. He also flunked test that showed his inability to right his rear foot when toed under. Finally a neurologist diagnosed him as lupus mediated polyarthritis. He was put on a high dose of Pred (80 mg) to shut down his immune system and then slowly weaned off. He got back to normal, had a relapse, a different med was given, and he didn't have another bout after that.

Then when he got older he started having problems again, long story short, he had several pinched nerves in his neck and back. Took meds again for the rest of his life. 

And he also had spondylosis when he hit his senior years, again with similar symptoms. He lived until a month before his 13th birthday.

His sister, Honey, also had spondylosis, kept comfortable by meds AND she had the leg kicking/thrusting when she was asleep. I forget the medication they tried with her for this leg thrusting. She lived pretty well until a month or two before her 14th birthday.

I've also had several other dogs with sponldylosis with similar symptoms. 

Tasha was diagnosed with DM, but I have since learned this is a disease that is extremely difficult to diagnose, it's more of an elimination process. Anyway, she didn't have any pain that I knew of which makes me inclined to believe she may really have had it.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I didn't think DM had a sudden onset?
> 
> So weird, and you are being very comprehensive, so hopefully you will find a cause.


Shadow's came on very rapidly, but looking back I think I may have missed some of the early symptoms.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I don't have any advice, I just wanted to say I'm hoping for the best for you and Grim. :hugs:


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## KSdogowner (Jun 22, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> I *really* appreciate the helpful and thoughts and suggestions and prayers. They mean so much. I have faced these kinds of issues with dogs 11-14 and lost a young dog who was only a year old. You expect these things later...not with a dog who is not all that old and in his w.


Nancy, it breaks my heart to see Grim and you having to go through this situation. I am so hoping for a positive turn-around for him. I don't know what to say other than that my thoughts and prayers are with you both hoping for a miracle for this precious boy.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

LisaT said:


> I'm a big believer in doing whatever diagnostics make sense, the dog will tolerate, and you can afford. And then, treat the dog, not the tests, and I know what you know what I mean by that. Hopefully all those diagnostics give you a clue. With max, they gave me a clue on how to treat, but they never gave any answers until it had morphed in the end.
> 
> Like Jean, I'm not sure what to hope for and not hope for. I guess I am not hoping for DM, and a whole lotta other things.


I'm hoping for Grim to get better whatever is causing the issue. What she is describing is so hard for me to read because much of it is the same as I just went through with my boy. Although I didn't know about the genetic test. I trusted my vet when after the xrays and the doxy she thought it was DM. I am sort of confused on the genetic test issue as I thought it was an autoimmune problem that was likely triggered by an enviornmental issue.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> I *really* appreciate the helpful and thoughts and suggestions and prayers. They mean so much. I have faced these kinds of issues with dogs 11-14 and lost a young dog who was only a year old. You expect these things later...not with a dog who is not all that old and in his working prime. And a dog who has to be the sweetest dog on the face of the earth. Honest. Everyone who meets Grim falls in love with him. I call him my "Pointy eared lab"
> 
> But, then, life is like that and I think part of why the Good Lord partners us with dogs is they remind us how to live in the here and now. They don't worry. Something so hard for us humans to do.


I didn't realize Grim was a SAR dog. I am so sorry for all the two of you are going through. They really give everything for their jobs. I have so much respect for SAR dogs and their handlers. I hope that things turn out right for the both of you. Please keep us updated.


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## GSDLoverII (May 12, 2004)

Thinking of Grim and sending my prayers.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Still no word back. How long does it take to run the test? Yikes.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Waiting is the hardest part . Hang in there. Continued prayers.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> Still no word back. How long does it take to run the test? Yikes.


Hope you hear something soon! Please keep us updated.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Yes, I called yesterday and still no results back. We are still doing prednisone and crate rest and I swear he still seems some better. But it is not 100%. Only very ocassional wobbly in the back hocks and has not had any serious balance issues for a number of days. He said it can take 1-2 weeks on the test.


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## GSDLoverII (May 12, 2004)

:angel::fingerscrossed::fingerscrossed::angel:


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Still no word. The weakness comes and goes and it is better than it was but I am really really really leaning more towards some chiropractic level issue because he crabs on the trot and he never did that before. Waiting very impatiently and have called several times. We did not have the antibiotic last night (ran out) and the Bird Biotic is not here yet and it seems he was a bit weaker this am.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Nancy - so sorry to see Grim is having problems.....sounds alot like what I am seeing with my nearly 11 year old....at first, assumed it was DM - now not so sure - first because on pred, he improved dramatically.....he does not track totally correct, and is a bit wobbly - I also think - ONLY in the case of my boy - that lack of exercise and conditioning was a factor in his condition ...he had the prostrate problems, bowel/colon problems - and lots of chewing on his joints....front and back....pred has helped him significantly....did some x-rays, but at 10-11 not going overboard for diagnostics...assuming mostly arthritis in spine from working - and have now been able to swim him a couple of times a week which is helping him as well....now I am wondering if there is some tick borne disease he might have as well - two summers ago I know we had a few on him....

My equine vet here does the stem cell and swears by it!

Keeping my fingers crossed for you and Grim!!!

Lee


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I wondered if this has been considered?

Affiliated Veterinary Specialists : Clinical Insights from AVS

We lost our GSD, Yaeger, to this 2yrs. ago in May.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

No, but I will add it to my list. Also adding tendon and ligament damage knee to hock over time.....someone on another forum suggested ultrasound of that area and I know they have a high res ultrasound and it is not too expensive.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

He had a lot of weakness which has improved, right?

A lot of times what you'll see with back injured dogs is they have a lot of strength up front which masks the weakness in the back end, especially at a run. Tristan (completely paralyzed and in a cart when he arrived) can run like the wind. But has instability when at a slow pace like a walk. Climbing is very difficult and you can see the deficit. 
But because his front end is so muscular it helps him when he's running, and dogs like this will also lean into the front more than a dog w/a normal back end.

FCE (mild) fits it seems from reading your boy's history and progress.
It would be impossible to detect without the myelogram. 

Yaeger's was vast and he was completely down. Both legs were bad but the one could not even be folded under him in a normal "sit" position.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

jocoyn said:


> Still no word. The weakness comes and goes and it is better than it was but I am really really really leaning more towards some chiropractic level issue because he crabs on the trot and he never did that before. Waiting very impatiently and have called several times. We did not have the antibiotic last night (ran out) and the Bird Biotic is not here yet and it seems he was a bit weaker this am.


Chiropractic makes so many things better - it can help the nervous system run more smoothly, in addition to the skeletal stuff.

I hope that the BB gets there soon. If he declines while off it, that is definitely a piece of the puzzle. There are a number of dogs on the tick list where that will happen, it's very frustrating.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

msvette2u said:


> FCE (mild) fits it seems from reading your boy's history and progress.
> It would be impossible to detect without the myelogram.


Myelogram is on the testing list for sure but we want those DM DNA results first because it is tough on a dog I gather (even though his fitness and bloodwork are stellar)


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Doxy's an anti-inflammatory as well, of sorts.
Where'd you order the Bird Biotic? 
I like Pet Meds | Dog Supplies | Pet Supplies | Pet Products | Pet Supply or Discount Vet Supplies and Animal Supplies for Breeders, Rescues, Pet and Livestock Owners (Ask for Betty at vet med direct, I love her and she gives us discounts).


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

LisaT said:


> I hope that the BB gets there soon. If he declines while off it, that is definitely a piece of the puzzle. There are a number of dogs on the tick list where that will happen, it's very frustrating.


Yes I ordered TWO 100 count bottles - I figure that will give me almost a months worth and time to see how it works. And I will have a few days to watch the changes OFF the antibiotic.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

jocoyn said:


> Yes I ordered TWO 100 count bottles - I figure that will give me almost a months worth and time to see how it works. And I will have a few days to watch the changes OFF the antibiotic.


I am so hoping that you'll get this figured out AND resolved :fingerscrossed:


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I ordered from valley vet supply - it was free shipping $22.95 per bottle 
Also bought a tick collar for Beau ....... you know I am not sure I will use it but I wanted to have it if I decided. We have a TON of deer ticks in our area and with no winter to speak of........Preventic.....thought I would buy now think later.....someone will use it if I don't.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Bird Biotic, 100 count (Doxyclycline) Tablets

$23.98 but not free s&h. 
Betty usually does give us a discount, though, on almost everything though, when we order.

I do like Valley Vet, we got the best deals on puppy formula from them, and I got a pair of LaCrosse boots a year or so ago, on clearance for like $15.00!


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## Guardyan (Aug 29, 2005)

"Still no word back. How long does it take to run the test? Yikes."

Just wanted to share some info about the DM test. I recently did a test on Zen . . . I ordered the test on 1/5 and received her report in the mail on 1/30. 

I ordered my test online and received an email from OFA. I was able to click the link in the email and view the results fairly quickly. The results were then posted on the OFA website. I received the hard copy in the mail very last. 

I don't know if you have the email from OFA or not, but that might get you the results more quickly. 

Hoping and praying for a good result for Grim . . .


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

No the veterinary clinic went straight to Missouri not through OFA

Though I have been in email communication with U of M as they wanted pedegree info for the files.

Wish they did - would have saved some money.

Thanks


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## WVGSD (Nov 28, 2006)

Nancy/Jocoyn:

Thank you for suggesting your thread about the past year and Grim's challenges. I read all of it and hope that you will have some answers soon. The genetic test for DM is going to be on my list for Max as well. 
Thank you for sharing.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Shannon - I will be watching you and Max, too. This is very unsettling and the genetic test is not a diagnosis just another part of the puzzle...


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

jocoyn said:


> No the veterinary clinic went straight to Missouri not through OFA
> 
> Though I have been in email communication with U of M as they wanted pedegree info for the files.
> 
> ...


How much was the U of M fee for the DNA test?

Do you know whether DDC (DNA Test for Canine Degenerative Myelopathy (DM)) works with U of M?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

You know, what I was charged at the specialist was $169 - considering the test is I think only $65 through OFA I would hope for much quicker results. I don't know about the one you referenced.

Been following all those posts on PDB about the SOD1 gene and the now unfunded U of F (Clemmons) program vs U of M? This whole thing is so confusing.

On Monday, I am going to email the contact of U of M and ask how long this is going to take. This crate rest is ridiculous if it is unecessary. I am ready to say lets just do the myelogram and see what is up (though I understand that could be a mistake if DM susceptible?)


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> You know, what I was charged at the specialist was $169 - considering the test is I think only $65 through OFA I would hope for much quicker results. I don't know about the one you referenced.
> 
> Been following all those posts on PDB about the SOD1 gene and the now unfunded U of F (Clemmons) program vs U of M? This whole thing is so confusing.


Please keep posting what you find out. It is too late for my Shadow, but I sure would like to learn more. Your Grims symptoms are so similar. The doxy at first seemed to help Shadow, then not so much. I now look back and wonder did he really improve or was it hopeful thinking. Would have increasing the doxy helped? I know he had ticks as a puppy. Could I have done something different? Every time I read this thread I'm hoping that you and Grim have a better outcome! BTW anesthesia from the x-rays made Shadow worse. I don't know exactly what a myelogram is but if it involves anesthesia be careful.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

jocoyn said:


> You know, what I was charged at the specialist was $169 - considering the test is I think only $65 through OFA I would hope for much quicker results. I don't know about the one you referenced.
> 
> Been following all those posts on PDB about the SOD1 gene and the now unfunded U of F (Clemmons) program vs U of M? This whole thing is so confusing.
> 
> On Monday, I am going to email the contact of U of M and ask how long this is going to take. This crate rest is ridiculous if it is unecessary. I am ready to say lets just do the myelogram and see what is up (though I understand that could be a mistake if DM susceptible?)


Do you have a vet school near you? When I had a dog with an actual spine injury, they were the folks that knew which end were up--and were about half the cost of the clinics with the equivalent equipment. (For example, an MRI was $600 instead of $1800--this was Virginia Tech around 2002.)

I understand that the myelogram can actually cause major problems if it's DM....


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

That is what I thought about the myelogram and probably why he said to wait for the DM test. I would really like to know if I can just take him for some walks though - gentle slow...all this crate rest can't be good for him (but maybe it is if injury)--It is really driving me crazy to see this poor dog in a crate for 23.5 hours a day...even though I chill some in the room with him but we put him in a separate room to keep him quiet. He wants to stand and wag his whole body and spin in the crate out of excitement when ever we get near him.

UGA Vet School is about 2 hours away, but the time I took a dog there years ago it was very expensive but then that was probably just the type of testing.

The vet at the clinic said we could go straight to MRI but the problem is you could spend hours in there unless you already had a place to focus in on from the myelogram. [his attack was myelogram to get area, then MRI on smaller area]

I know the Specialist Clinic in Greenville has a great reputation


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

A myelogram involves injecting contrast into the spinal fluid and can result in many complications, including paralysis. An MRI is much safer. A neurological exam should give them a good idea of the affected area.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I will talk with him again about just doing the MRI of the area -- I am a bit hestitant on the myelogram for the reasons stated -


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

RebelGSD said:


> A myelogram involves injecting contrast into the spinal fluid and can result in many complications, including paralysis. An MRI is much safer. A neurological exam should give them a good idea of the affected area.


An MRI is one of the next steps my vet recommended. She never suggested a myelogram. We were looking into getting him the compound medicine recommended by the study as well as having an MRI done, when he went downhill so rapidly. We had stopped the Doxy a few weeks earlier because he wasn't making any improvement. I will always feel guilty because I came down with the flu that week. (worst I've been in 15 years) and Shadow stayed by my side the entire time. He wouldn't leave except to eat and potty. I feel had he had his regular exercise he wouldn't have gone down hill so abruptly. At least I know he got a lot of cuddles and loves that week... and now I'm crying again. Sorry. this is supposed to be Grims thread! Please give Grim lots of hugs and cuddles for me and Shadow.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

Have you seem my thread about DM and stem cell treatment?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

RebelGSD said:


> Have you seem my thread about DM and stem cell treatment?


Yes, it is definitely something I will look into if that seems to be the smoking gun.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Here is a DM type of question. I can just barely touch the hairs on Grim's back toes while he is eating and he yanks the foot away. 

I thought DM included a loss of sensation. Still waiting for the darned test. Hey I read about an electromyogram on the web. It is very non invasive. Any knowledge on that?


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

jocoyn said:


> I thought DM included a loss of sensation.


It does.

Did your vet consider cauda equina syndrome?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

No, but wouldn't that involve pain?

He was very rough on his exam prodding very deeply all along the spine and hips, moved his neck and saw no indication of pain let alone discomfort 

The only metions he made were the possiblity of a spinal tumor or extrusion if it was not DM, and that if it was inflammatory or tick based he would expect to see rapid and profound change on the antibiotic and prednisone, whearas we saw slight gradual improvement, though I am seeing more weakening now that the antibiotic is gone (just a bit weak, wobbly) -- like I said though -- as soon as the bird biotic comes I am doing it after reading some of the articles on different species of tick diseases as well as the fact that the dose of doxy is lower than what I understand is normally prescribed. [maybe to pacify me?]

Well he can definitely feel me touch his feet
He can pee with his leg up for a good while
He can squat
He can trot and run (though I stop him but I have let him offlead to go potty with no playtime)-but he crabs on the trot now
He can spin in his crate without falling and can spin around in general without falling but he ain't graceful.
The tail is definitely 100%

I can't call today but will email the U of M and see how long for this test.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

My chiro says that CES is very painful...


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Well, I talked with vet and still no test results back on the DM. I discussed my concerns with the prednisone and the lack of any excercise and he agreed for me to talk him on short gentle walks and see how he does and if about the same after a few days to cut the pred by half. We did not discuss the bird biotic (I know better) but that has been shipped so should be here soon. 

I brought up the possiblity of an EMG (myogram, not myelogram) and he said their is one on Charlotte and I said I would really be willing to drive 2 hours as it is less invasive and checks nerve conduction...we will wait for the DM test though before he refers me. I told him I was not too keen on the myelogram.

No real progress good or bad on Grim; about the same as yesterday.

I am not sure how the U of M DM blood test is or is not different than the one you get through OFA. They sent in a blood sample, not a cheek swab, though DNA is DNA but the blood sample would be less likely to be contaminated with extraneous DNA.

He did say an FCE is a possiblity but thinks we would be seeing more steady improvement than we have seen.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

There's a lot of info on FCE on the 'net.
If it's only been 2 weeks I'd not expect a ton of improvement if it's that, but try to look up some of the sites. They explain what happens and when/if there'll be recovery. Once damaged, it's not like the spinal cord pops back to normal.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Still waiting for the DM results. Grim is actually moving around pretty well and after tomorrow if continued, I am going to cut the prednisone by half for a few days-then wean it off. 

Yesterday we went for about a quarter mile walk and today a half mile and I did hear some toe scraping each day (about one scrape every 100 feet of so) so we still are not 100% but he is remarkably improved...I am probably going to hold him at the half mile for a few days-as we have a nice hill on the route good for uphill walking.

The bird biotic is here but I want to clear the prednsione because they both have potential for irritation and since I am going UP on the doxy....and then blast him with it and cross my fingers. I know his bloodwork is good going into it but I feel like I am flying under the radar and solo. I know from reading now if it IS tick borne, the original doxy probably calmed it down but it would come back with a vengeance so swift and harsh action seems to be the proper route...hmmmm...I think I am going to start half dose on the doxy tomorrow then titer it up to full dose when the pred is done.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

What antibiotic are you going with? I started treating Lynx with doxy for Lyme's last week. The treatment is for 3 weeks, which I am thinking isn't long enough. His symptoms were pain when running (he was yelping as he ran) and the faintest limp at a trot. I wasn't sure whether it was an injury or a neck issue or Lyme's -- but a vet test showed a faint positive for Lyme's and he tested positive for it (and was on doxy for 4 weeks) last year. He seems significantly better already.

I know how frustrating this search for a problem -- so that you can try to solve it-- can be. 

Almost 10 years ago, my dog, Ashen, come up lame in the middle of the Sch3 Nationals obedience phase. At the event, a well-respected ortho vet said he thought it was knee/ACL based on a brief exam. 

I had 3 other orthopedic vets exam him and say they thought it was knee, but every time, they'd xray the knee and it would come up clean, so they'd suggest I go to another vet. One vet pretty much had me talked into a TPLO.... 

Finally (after a few months of rest and painkillers and trying prednisone doses) I went to Virginia Tech vet school (I couldn't afford the MRI and surgery anywhere else!). They immediately said spinal and did an MRI. He had broken the tip of his S1 vertabra and it was floating around in the spinal canal and there was a lot of scar tissue pressing on all the nerves that radiate out in that area. Ended up doing a laminectomy of L7 and we did 12 weeks of careful rehab and reconditioning. He came back pretty fully. They had said that scar tissue from the surgery would likely mean that after about 2 years, he'd start having problems again, but he really didn't start having any further problems until he was almost 11 (surgery was when he was 5). 

It definitely showed me that it's really hard for vets to diagnose back problems (and that the sciatic nerve in a dog mimics a torn ACL!). And it turned out that going to the vet school was the best decision I could have made. Altogether, the surgery and MRI ended up costing me about 50% of what it would have cost anywhere else.

I've been thinking of you and Grim--I'm really glad that you think he's improving. Sounds like it's very unlikely to be DM--which is great news.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

We are going with the doxy - thinking it *could* be Lyme or Erlichia below the diagnostic level - even though the vet is not in tune with doing it - but the older I get the more I realize professionals really don't have "magical" knowledge and you often have to make informed decisions on your own. I know the main organs that can be adversely impacted are the liver and kidneys and he has very good numbers on his recent blood panel.

There is some documentation about dogs previously immunized for Lyme (which he was before I got him, and he lived in Wisconsin which is Lyme haven) coming up a subclinical...........I have torn myself up on this but but doxycycline is quite well tolerated (and his 10 days on the lower dose gave him no problems) and if I look back to the summer I see - the enlarged spleen, the low CBC (but it was across the board so could be equipment calibration), and the enlarged prostate - all of which could be associated with a tick disease.

If he shows continued improvement on the doxy, I will probably do doggie chiro/acupuncture before trying out the MRI which is so expensive. But we still want to see the DM results, realizing even if he is A/A that it *could* be injury or tick borne.

Babesiosis can go subclinical and need to be detected by PCR but that seems more prevalent in the North East.

Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever is quite high in the area, and his sympoms were consistent with this August but everything I find says short duration and not chronic for this one..........

Erlichia is common and i have some info saying strains other than E canis are not picked up by the test but NC State says there test is also positive with (spelling now) chafeesnis and ewingii - but no mention is made of risticii and some other species listed in this article: 01 Ehrlichia Infection in Dogs - VeterinaryPartner.com - a VIN company!


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

My equine vet clinic has a nuclear scintingraphy - MUCH less invasive and more conducive to diagonsis of many things than a myelogram....one IV injection, scans at timed intervals to show various body parts....been a long time since I helped with one, but we did control scans on a couple of my dogs when they first got the machine....you would find easily any tumor or degeneration of disc

Lee


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

UGA has this technology - but they do require a referral. Another item to put in the possible toolkit.....


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Nothing to add, I haven't really read all the thread yet, but I just discovered this thread now and wanted to give both of you a huge hug :hugs:


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Thanks. Hugs and Prayers are welcome. I think I am at a place where I can accept whatever news we get.......and do the best we can with it.


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## GSDLoverII (May 12, 2004)

still prayin' for "our boys" :angel:
:hugs:


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Same here. 

We started the high dose doxy and cut back some on the pred. He is tolerating well but I can actually see a bit more instability with the reduction of the pred. I am just going to watch it carefully because I understand if the issue *is* tickborne, the pred can mask the inflammation...so I am giving the antibiotics time to kick in. Obviously if there is significant change we will reverse course and go back up on the pred....still no word on the DM test.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

:fingerscrossed:


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I got ahold of the folks at U of M and have Grim's DM results back - "Carrier" -

So while we are not 100% sure of the value of the test it is what is out there for now and greatly lowers the odds it is DM.

I am terribly upset at the veterinary specialists and am going to ask them to send me to a board certified veterinary neurologist...the test was run on Feb 22nd but because they did not supply an email address, U of M did not return the results.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Hm...so if everything else is ruled out, then it's probably the FCE?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Everything else is not ruled out. There is still the possiblity of an extrustion or of a tumor and the question of species of erlichia that are certainly in this area but not picked up by the assays.

I think if it was an FCE his symptoms would not be coming and going but would show slow steady improvement though I could be wrong. Some days now he is "normal" other days, like today he is "wobbly" I am asking them to send me by referral to the UGA Vet School. They have all the equipment, several board certified neurologists (the closes vet neuro is Charlotte or Athens which are equidistant and the vet school gives me more options).


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

There could be improvement or not with an FCE. 
But it does seem strange it's coming and going. On days he's "normal", is he normal or just improved?
Do you see improvement with the doxy?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Normal days are improved Bad days are not as bad as it has been at its worse.
The doxy has allowed me to cut the pred with little change...Doxy started full dose on 3/2 though....


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

So sorry you and Grim are going through this. Tried to read most ok some, but with Kaos' struggles too many of this hit too close to home. So I am not sure what all has been discussed. They thought K had DM as well, all tests ruled that out about 5 weeks ago. I'm glad Grim was just tested as a carrier.
For K it has been determined it is arthritis in the lumbosachrial (sp) area, as well as knees. He failed the flip toe test, on numerous occasions, he is wobbly. His back legs seem to be making a slow progression inward toward each other. I feel for you, it is so hard to watch.

Again so sorry for this hard year. I know far too well that 9 is way too young. I hope it is nothing serious, and you get more years with your sweet boy.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Now the vet here ruled out spinal arthritis on x-ray ...... could he have been missing? He also manipulted the knees but did not x-ray them....Now Grim tends to walk with a wide legged stance as opposed to inward and the instability is on the turns sometimes that inside legs pulls under (drags on the outside)-- on the trot he is crabbing a bit on the gallop he is not as extended as he used to be...of course I am minimizing his running right now bigtime.

How did they diagnose the arthritis and wouldn't the prednsione make a major difference in that?


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Diagnosis was through x-rays, physical exam, and seeing/hearing of his symptoms. Here is one of the links she gave me to read. You may find it helpful or interesting. As far as prednisone, if it's medical or even a "wives tail" we've tried it, some things don't work, some work for awhile and then don't. At this point with his combined problems, we have made the very painful decision to quit putting him through tests, blooddraws, med changes and let him go....but thank you for asking about the prednisone. I wish it were that easy. Sorry, I'm getting all choked up, here's the link. I hope you get some good answers for Grim soon.

Degenerative lumbosacral stenosis in dogs - Veterinary Medicine


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Definitely looks like an in depth read. So far no signs of any pain but not sure how all this plays together. I am so sorry for your Kaos, but I know that we have to make these decisions when our dogs get to a certain point and "tell us" it is time.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

glad you got some answer to the DM question. Continued prayers that Grim gets better and continues his life in all the ways he loves.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> Definitely looks like an in depth read. So far no signs of any pain but not sure how all this plays together. I am so sorry for your Kaos, but I know that we have to make these decisions when our dogs get to a certain point and "tell us" it is time.


It is a deep read....that was just one of many uuggghhh. My eyes were so sore from all the reading and crying when going through everything. I didn't realize Grim wasn't showing pain, thank goodness for that:wub: Our vet said w/out MRI it was not possible to say definatively. Although based on all the info and experience we've had up to this point with meds, treatments, etc....didn't make much of a difference with prognosis. I hope you have years before you need any of this info.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

My neurologist was not convinced of the value of the test as the only indicator for DM and neither was the vet who did Riley's stem cell treatment. The original study was done on corgis and the conclusions cannot be generalized to other breeds without more study. Different bereeds show different responses to stem cell treatment.


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## GSDLoverII (May 12, 2004)

How is Grim doing? He too is in my thoughts.
I am so sorry about your Cyra too.
You have a lot on your plate.
Sometimes life is just overwhelming.
Just know that you are not alone.
Prayers for you both.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Up and down. We have gone to a holistic veterinarian and he had his first acupuncture and cold laser treatment Saturday. She noted his gums were a bit pale (though not like Cyra's which were white) so even with the normal blood test in Dec for HSA I am so scared of that.......but his platelets were high (near the normal limit) in January...His Feb x-ray was good and there is no sign of any massess on palpation......I will ask about a CBC when we go in tomorrow. 

We are planning for a combination of conventional and holistic therapies. She got her DVM in 1976 so I KNOW she had to be cream of the crop because back then there were only 8 vet schools in the nation and it was hard for women to "break in". I also appreciate the time she spent with us and her demeanor with him.

She gave him He Sho Wou, Drenatopin, and a homeopathic remedy conium 30c and is doing acupuncture and cold laser therapy. I just felt like I could NOT put him through more anesthesia and a myelogram; I just have a gut feeling on that one and have to go with it.

I will say the conium is amazing how he perks up and gets very cheerful and strong after taking it {it is as needed] but the past few days he has been a bit off his feed (though I am slowly weaning the predncisone which I am sure jacked up his appetite).................I am going to talk with her about stopping the doxy that I started -- it can cause some anemia and I hope that is the source of it...the high platelets are not consistent with tickborne infection as best I know.

Definitely some muscle wasting in the back and SHE feels there is arthritis in the sacral region that would cause his symtpoms. 

So all in all, I am very much worried. I don't care if he ever works again but I sure want to be able to have us enjoy our time together.

-------------

Thanks for the prayers. I pray with him in my arms every evening (and I pray for Kaiser too).


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

I am so sorry you are going through all of this. I know exactly how it feels, and I'm sorry you are having to experience it. I am also sorry about the loss of Cyra recently. I did not realize you were dealing with that as well. As for the sacrial arthritis... I hope he finds some relief with the treatments you are trying.

Cherish each day. So hard when their body deteriorates faster than their mind and their "love for life"

One thing that Kaos responded well to for awhile was duralactin and zeel. If I think of anything else I will let you know.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Oh, Candice.....I think of you and Kaos. Yes I am glad I telecommute because it would be so hard to explain the off and on tears to folks. Even my own family, I think, do not understand the bond I have with my dogs. May the rest of your time with him this week be full of joy [in the meaning of joy being something you can still have while you hurt].


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> Oh, Candice.....I think of you and Kaos. Yes I am glad I telecommute because it would be so hard to explain the off and on tears to folks. Even my own family, I think, do not understand the bond I have with my dogs. May the rest of your time with him this week be full of joy [in the meaning of joy being something you can still have while you hurt].


Thank you Nancy. We had a great time with K this weekend. I have some good pics from the lake and just playing in the back yard. I doubled his tramadol dose all weekend so he would be more comfortable. We even walked up to the yogurt shop....of course my husband had to run back and get the car to give K a ride home...but it was nice.
I get your on/off tears...seems to be a way of life for me lately. Just Saturday I sent my husband to Target....and he came home with Rx's...the pharmacy had refilled Kaos' Rx automatically and he didn't have the heart to tell them we wouldn't need them, so he bought them and brought them home...which of course got me bawling AGAIN.

I must say of all the things we tried...which were many that duralactin and zeel made the most difference. Not sure if you use either of those or not, but worth looking into.

Give Grim a big hug for me and one for you too.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Grim had a very good 2nd visit with the holistic vet. He immediately jumped on the acupuncture table and was so good we were able to do the electric stimulation. 

He seems to be moving some better but I know that is subjective. He is most definitely pooping easier! 

Well talked with the folks at VDI and in 3 weeks we are going to use Cyra's unused test with him. He is of interest since he had the enlarged spleen which shrunk back down and has a slight anemic "sign" (paleness, white coating on tongue) that led the holistic vet to give him gladulars. 

I swear that the holistic medicine conium had had amazing results on him. He did not need it today. 

Another thing that is helping him is I am working small cadaver problems with him in the backyard. Even if he never works again he doesn't know the difference and struts around with his ball so proud of himself.......I figure the goal is for his life to be enjoyable however long or short it is. It actually helps me with Beau too because I can set up some complex problems and compare notes on how Beau is working them out. Beau is doing very well at locating source odor quickly and efficiently which is making me happy there.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

That's great news!! Glad he is responding well. He probably loves getting out and working and showing up Beau


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## GSDLoverII (May 12, 2004)

I hope he continues to improve with every day!


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Glad to hear Grim is doing better. Continued prayers.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

We had an already scheduled visit with the specialist vet today. I am still seeing and will continue to see the holistic vet who is NOT doing chiro but is doing acupuncture, chinese medicine, and cold laser.

The specialist agreed there was, indeed, improvement and it could continue to improve. He also felt that right now we should not go into a myelogram unless we were going to commit to surgery if a fix was needed. Both the myelogram and the surgery, however, would carry considerable risks and there is a chance (about 30%) he could come out worse than he is, or even paralyzed - a chance (about 30%) of unchanged and a chance about 30% that the problem will be fixed but could recur later at another vertebrae.

The holistic vet sees arthritic changes in the spine where the specialist does not (specialist is internal med, not orthopedic though)--she, too, however felt it was time for a career change for Mr. Grim.

So, I feel our current course of retiring him, slowly bringing up his excercise (guess his days of ball chasing are over but evenutally I hope we can go for long walks together) is where things are right now. At least he is not in pain. I am still setting up small problems for him in the backyard but not tugging with the toy, just giving it to him. And he seems happy for that...if there is a sudden change for the worse, however, the whole decision process will have to be made again.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

How is Grim doing? Did you ever hear back on the DM test?


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## GSDLoverII (May 12, 2004)

How is Grim doing? I think about him often.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Sorry I missed the last one.
Grim is doing fine....about the same.... moving ok but some days he gets a little wobbly. DM came back as carrier but I am not so sure about the test.

He is retired though I may take him to training some and since his cert is still good may continue to work him on shallow grave problems for the rest of the year as they are not physically very stressful and usually involve small areas. ....


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

UPDATE

Grim had his last visit with the specialist today and they are impressed with his progress. I did not mention the Chines Medicines and Acupuncture but they suggested 6 more weeks of progressively incresing walking and I can start him back with playing fetch again. Also swimming is good whenever we can fit that in.

He still has not, in his mind, ruled out myelopathy though the primary opinion is disc compression. 

So slow and steady a lot of hill walking every other day and a lot of sit to stand excercises to help rebuild muscle.


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## GSDLoverII (May 12, 2004)

This is good news! Hope he gets better every day!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Update - Grim has not had any acupuncture for several months and is still on a Chinese herbal "hindquarter weakness" - his last blood panel was stellar, though he had a UTI but it cleared up nicely and the recent urinalysis was normal. 

Just got back from a one mile walk up and down hills (we had not done for a couple of weeks) and not ONE toe scrape at all. And when I cut him offlead to go to the gate, he was prancing around like a puppy. 

I am still not sure on the DM test. I do think though that he must not have DM because I don't think he would have improved over the course of the year. We still have to do a lot of work to keep up his rear legs muscles though. 

The vet is talking about some therapy involving cytokines (something new and not nearly as expensive as stem cell therapies) more on that later. Right now, I don't want to upset the apple cart too much.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

That's very good news, I'm glad he'd feeling better


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Glad to hear that Grim is feeling better!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

good news!! When I had Sami on chinese meds, she did wonderful, I'm all for them)


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## AJT (Jun 20, 2012)

Go Grim, go Grim...you got it. Uh-huh!


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Thats wonderful!


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