# Pedigree of new pup



## taytay (May 13, 2014)

We finally picked our puppy out and will be getting her in a few weeks. I understand what a pedigree is, and that you can see the titles dogs got, but I don't "know" any of these dogs. Just out of pure curiosity, what do you "see" in this pedigree. 

Line-breeding for the progency of V Hurican von den Wölfen and Trina von Schraderhaus


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

personally I don't understand why litters were switched on you?

you want this ? quoting one of your posts 
"I would probably go with a less drivier pup of the litter so it wouldn't be as intense for my wife and (little) kids during the day taking care of it while I am at work."

It is my belief that "this" litter will be intense -- very strong working http://www.schraderhausk9.com/puppy_pic_page_Trina%20x%20Hurican%202014%20Litter.htm


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## taytay (May 13, 2014)

I asked that question more specifically about the Western Lines being "drivier" than Eastern Lines. She said as a generality you could state that but this puppy she recommended would be a better fit than any of the others out of litter we were on (Dino x Ingka "E" litter). I guess since I got matched with an individual pup out of the litter so maybe she saw something that was better fit with the individual puppies characteristics.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the pedigree will tell you more about what could be expected than an individual at THIS AGE .

welcoming any other comments


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

to move this topic along why not list clearly what you expect this pup to be and do for you. I know at one point you were contemplating SAR but that has been changed.

your expectations 

then the question is which combination fulfills those requirements and your ability and family situation

original litter
Line-breeding for the progency of V Dino vom Schäferliesel and Ingka von Schraderhaus Dino x Ingka

or replacement litter 
Line-breeding for the progency of V Hurican von den Wölfen and Trina von Schraderhaus Hurican X Trina

never mind the name , the colour , etc . Have a good deep think on whether the dog is right for you. 

what else does Schrader haus have coming down the pike


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Carmen is right....I had a litter from Zender and an Ufo daughter...so some very close common lines with this litter....

This could be more heavy duty higher drive, high energy, working .... is the male in the US??? Am looking for a Zender dog for a possible breeding in a year or two for a friend.

Lee


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## taytay (May 13, 2014)

carmspack said:


> your expectations


I am looking for a dog that I can take through training and eventually trial in tracking and/or nose works with good nerves that is confident, obedient, accepting of other animals and people and protector of my home and family. I want a dog that can go camping, hiking, walking, boating, swimming and do the day to day activities my family is involved in.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

I see this litter as an upcoming litter for schraderhaus which might be a little more your speed. Much similar to your original litter. Was this one discussed with you?

Line-breeding for the progency of Zustav von Schraderhaus and Etta von Schraderhaus

I've got a dog from similar lines and he would be a perfect match for what you're describing.


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## taytay (May 13, 2014)

wolfstraum said:


> is the male in the US???


Yes, Hurican is in Washington State. I was able to meet him when I was visiting breeders. He is co-owned by Schraderhaus and Waldkonig (Timberhaus) and resides at the Waldkonig facility. 

SchraderhausK9.com - +1.253.843.1123 PST - German Shepherd Working Dogs
Hurican-vd-Wolfen


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the pedigree that Lucy Dog gave Line-breeding for the progency of Zustav von Schraderhaus and Etta von Schraderhaus I would think is a better match for you -- ask Schrader haus about it .


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## taytay (May 13, 2014)

Lucy Dog said:


> I see this litter as an upcoming litter for schraderhaus which might be a little more your speed. Much similar to your original litter. Was this one discussed with you?
> 
> Line-breeding for the progency of Zustav von Schraderhaus and Etta von Schraderhaus
> 
> I've got a dog from similar lines and he would be a perfect match for what you're describing.


I have seen that litter but it has not been discussed with me. 

I am going to honest here. I take everything I read on the internet with a grain of salt. I appreciate honest opinions, suggestions, directions, and advice but don't know how I would go to my breeder and say some folks on the internet don't think this is right litter. I made it clear to her what we want to do with the dog, primarily a companion with the goal to train and title in tracking and/or nose works. We have spoken many times through this process and the fact that she moved me off my original litter onto one with a puppy that she felt was better fit for family seems like she has the best interest of my family and the puppy in mind. I feel like if I keep questioning I would be implying that I know better than she does on what is the best dog for us, and I don't. I am not trying to be offensive to anyone, I just feel kind of in between a rock and a hard place right now.


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## taytay (May 13, 2014)

carmspack said:


> the pedigree that Lucy Dog gave Line-breeding for the progency of Zustav von Schraderhaus and Etta von Schraderhaus I would think is a better match for you -- ask Schrader haus about it .


I will ask about this litter as well.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I would not recommend that litter for a family pet either....the Zender and Ufo combination is going to give you very high energy...should not be any dog aggression...but more than you might be looking for....I'd also suggest one of the DDR pups

Lee


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

taytay said:


> I have seen that litter but it has not been discussed with me.
> 
> I am going to honest here. I take everything I read on the internet with a grain of salt. I appreciate honest opinions, suggestions, directions, and advice but don't know how I would go to my breeder and say some folks on the internet don't think this is right litter. I made it clear to her what we want to do with the dog, primarily a companion with the goal to train and title in tracking and/or nose works. We have spoken many times through this process and the fact that she moved me off my original litter onto one with a puppy that she felt was better fit for family seems like she has the best interest of my family and the puppy in mind. I feel like if I keep questioning I would be implying that I know better than she does on what is the best dog for us, and I don't. I am not trying to be offensive to anyone, I just feel kind of in between a rock and a hard place right now.


The two previous people that have given you advice in this thread (carmspack and wolfstraum) are breeders with a lot of first hand knowledge with these dogs and this breed in general. They know what they're talking about. They're not just random people with pets like I am.

As for me, I'm just another joe schmo giving my advice on the internet. I mentioned that litter (the one i liked and carmspack echoed) because it's a very similar pedigree to one of my dogs and he'd fit in perfectly to what you're describing as something you'd like in a dog. At the very least, I'd ask her what she thought about that litter. See what she has to say. Doesn't hurt to ask.

This is your dog for the next 10+ years. I understand not wanting to offend anyone, but would you rather possibly offend someone that may last a few days or live with a dog that's too much for you to handle for years? Now I'm not saying that litter is too much for you because I really don't know. I have no experience with any of the dogs in that pedigree, but it sure sounds that way based on what carmspack and wolfstraum are trying to tell you.


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## taytay (May 13, 2014)

Lucy Dog said:


> The two previous people that have given you advice in this thread (carmspack and wolfstraum) are breeders with a lot of first hand knowledge with these dogs and this breed in general. They know what they're talking about. They're not just random people with pets like I am.
> 
> As for me, I'm just another joe schmo giving my advice on the internet. I mentioned that litter (the one i liked and carmspack echoed) because it's a very similar pedigree to one of my dogs and he'd fit in perfectly to what you're describing as something you'd like in a dog. At the very least, I'd ask her what she thought about that litter. See what she has to say. Doesn't hurt to ask.
> 
> This is your dog for the next 10+ years. I understand not wanting to offend anyone, but would you rather possibly offend someone that may last a few days or live with a dog that's too much for you to handle for years? Now I'm not saying that litter is too much for you because I really don't know. I have no experience with any of the dogs in that pedigree, but it sure sounds that way based on what carmspack and wolfstraum are trying to tell you.


I understand and honestly appreciate the feedback. I am going to have a conversation with her and see what she has to say about it. I know it is a big decision and huge commitment and that is one of the reason's it is kind of stressing me out. I felt like I worked through it and found the right pup, then this wrench gets thrown into the wheel ;-)


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

you can call me if you like....then you can say you talked to someone with a Zender x Ufo litter who thought the DDR would fit better for a pet....not knocking the litter at all...just the truth....

Lee


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Lucy Dog said:


> The two previous people that have given you advice in this thread (carmspack and wolfstraum) are breeders with a lot of first hand knowledge with these dogs and this breed in general. They know what they're talking about. They're not just random people with pets like I am.


Actually...I don't believe either of them has FIRST HAND knowledge of these dogs (the ones being bred).

Breeder does.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

wolfstraum has bred to Zender . right?

I have a daughter of dino's brother , with very very similar lines.

I have had dogs with components of the von der wolfen litter.

I have dogs with components of the ddr litter.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

carmspack said:


> wolfstraum has bred to Zender . right?
> 
> I have a daughter of dino's brother , with very very similar lines.
> 
> ...


So having a half brother from a different dam is FIRST HAND knowledge?

Having a cousinish thing is FIRST HAND knowledge?

Having COMPONENTS of a litter is FIRST HAND knowledge?

I currently own a bitch with Aly in the pedigree...who is actually line bred in that pedigree...does that make me an expert to comment on the actual dogs being bred?


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## taytay (May 13, 2014)

carmspack said:


> the pedigree that Lucy Dog gave Line-breeding for the progency of Zustav von Schraderhaus and Etta von Schraderhaus I would think is a better match for you -- ask Schrader haus about it .


Question about this breeding, in your opinion. What characteristics makes this litter that much different than the Dino X Ingka Litter. Dino is Etta's Sire and Ingka is Zustav's Dam so it seems like there would be a lot of the same blood involved. Sorry if it's an obvious answer and I just missed it.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

martemchik said:


> Actually...I don't believe either of them has FIRST HAND knowledge of these dogs (the ones being bred).
> 
> Breeder does.


I probably could have worded that better. When I said "these dogs", I wasn't referring to the specific dogs bring bred. I just meant the breed in general.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

martemchik said:


> So having a half brother from a different dam is FIRST HAND knowledge?
> 
> Having a cousinish thing is FIRST HAND knowledge?
> 
> ...


having one dog is a little different than having had multiple dogs with family ties....I bred to an Aly son...I saw dogs from 5 different litters from the same Aly son....the Aly son was line bred on Xento...I bred to a Xento dog, owned several grandget of Xento and pretty much every dog I have owned but 2 had Xento.....

I bred an Ufo daughter to Xender...I bred that same Ufo daughter to several other males. I bred my Xento granddaughter to an Ufo son.....when you get into raising multiple litters over years, seeing dogs from similar family crosses - you get a better understanding of what comes from where....So YES - breeders with experience with lines can have more insight. This particular breeder seems to have always had DDR lines...not WGWL....so she is branching out in this litter as well. 

Lee


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

martemchik said:


> So having a half brother from a different dam is FIRST HAND knowledge?
> 
> Having a cousinish thing is FIRST HAND knowledge?
> 
> ...


Well, it's never surprising to see a rude remark in your posts. You could possibly learn something if you read and paid attention to some of the experienced breeders here.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

I like the looks of this litter. Perhaps the breeder is seeing lower drives in this particular pup as compared to the rest of the litter. However, the pup may be a sleeper that fires up around 6 months or so, I have seen some of those..then again he could be a dud that will make a nice pet.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

ksotto333 said:


> Well, it's never surprising to see a rude remark in your posts. You could possibly learn something if you read and paid attention to some of the experienced breeders here.


Thanks minion. Learn something? The breeder that's being questioned is considered quite experienced by many people...so its just funny to see them get questioned.

Basically...we tell people to find a good breeder and trust their decision. Then when someone does it, we have a bunch of paper trail jockeys telling that person that their breeder is making a bad decision.

The facts as I see them is that OP is marginally interested in tracking/nose work. "We might" usually means "we won't" to a breeder. Or we'll dabble in it when we have time, do a few weeks of classes, but when something else will come up and we'll probably stop (sorry OP, this might not be you...but this is the majority of people that say they're "interested" in something).

The breeder in this case, is making the breeding decision. I'm assuming has at least the bitch on site and has worked the bitch. Let's say the chance is MUCH higher that the breeder has also seen the sire work (unlike anyone on this thread currently). The breeder also probably has other buyers, that have much higher needs than OP does. So the dogs in the other litter, and even in this one, that are capable of that work (and are guaranteed to do that work) will go to those homes.

At the end of the day, with OP's experience level, they're not going to see that much variation in the different litters that are being talked about. I have a feeling any dog they get from this breeder will be more than capable to be everything (and probably more) than what OP expects and will do whatever OP asks of it.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

wolfstraum said:


> having one dog is a little different than having had multiple dogs with family ties....I bred to an Aly son...I saw dogs from 5 different litters from the same Aly son....the Aly son was line bred on Xento...I bred to a Xento dog, owned several grandget of Xento and pretty much every dog I have owned but 2 had Xento.....
> 
> I bred an Ufo daughter to Xender...I bred that same Ufo daughter to several other males. I bred my Xento granddaughter to an Ufo son.....when you get into raising multiple litters over years, seeing dogs from similar family crosses - you get a better understanding of what comes from where....So YES - breeders with experience with lines can have more insight. This particular breeder seems to have always had DDR lines...not WGWL....so she is branching out in this litter as well.
> 
> Lee


Fine fine fine...I also train with 3 of my dogs siblings, and 5 of her half siblings on the dam's side. Does that count? So I've dealt with tons of Aly progeny...I'm a pro now.

Everyone seems to be mixing WGWL with DDR these days...even some of our holy breeders on this forum. Usually, its whatever good WGWL is available near by, and has nothing to do with the pedigree. Just a dog that's available, has the IPO3, and isn't a long drive away.


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

Lines of working dogs have been mixed for years, thats not new. I have only bred three different litters. But I can tell the difference in the lines from just those three different breedings. Some people are good at seeing differences in dogs, some not so much. Maybe the breeder is under the impression that the OP wants a puppy sooner rather than later and is not offering a pup from another litter. OP, can you return the pup for a replacement if it proves to be too much for you and your family? If that is the case, then go ahead at get one from the litter she is recommending. If not, then you better be absolutely certain this is the breeding for you. I think anything coming out of von den Wolfen is going to be higher drives, but that is just me. Since I keep seeing them in pedigrees of competition dogs. I personally dont breed for high drives, but try finding a nice stud that is advertised with low drives. I think low drives is more the speed of pet homes. The dogs are still bred to have that working drive, but not over the top. This last litter, the best pup was the one with lower drives. He so wanted to learn and took to his training like a champ at just 6 weeks.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

If I suddenly switched to ASLs.....would my knowledge be as useful???? No....

As far as mixing DDR and WGR (and Begian and Czech) I have done it pretty much all along....Alice was WGR, Kyra mostly DDR....last litter apx 25% each type...did I get some surprises from not working with Czech that closely before?? You bet! So when someone branches out into something new there might be a bit of a learning curve.

Lee


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

same as Wolfstraum .

I had a daughter of Cherokee von der Wolfen. So have some idea of what may come out of those lines !

martemchik --- I had a grandson of Tino Felsenschloss . I use Tino in my pedigrees often .

I bred to Ron Ludwigseck's brother Rex , had hands on experience with a Roland (another brother) daughter brought in by a friend and saw the progeny that came out of that. That gives first and second generation experience.

I own a daughter of Dino Schaferliesel's brother Duke .

I am very familiar with Lord Gleisdreieck having several dogs with Lord in the pedigree.

I know WHY I have these lines .
I know what to expect when they are meshed with working west German, Belgian and Czech lines.

I think that gives me a reasonable ability to understand those lines.

Taytay - you can say you have spoken to someone who has extensive experience with those DDR lines and that they feel that those are better lines for what you are looking for.

These are not comments about Schrader haus being a good or bad breeder .

Both litters have very good genetics . They are just that different .
Echo what Wolfstraum said " So when someone branches out into something new there might be a bit of a learning curve."

Taking a dog on speculation that it "may" work out is not something I would do as the buyer , and not something that I would do as the breeder. If it happens that way , sure -- by design , no .


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I can't find it anywhere of course, but I saw a good discussion once about what "Lines" are and what it takes to create them vs breeding a nice dog to a nice dog. Maybe you guys could detail something like that to give the op some insight and help his thinking?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I have a son of Iron von den Wolfen. Higher drive? Yes. But balanced and wonderful off switch that comes from both parents and very biddable (as both parents are). He would do fine in an active family home. 

Granted, very different lines, but just an example of a von den Wolfen dog.

What does your breeder expect this litter to throw?


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## taytay (May 13, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> I have a son of Iron von den Wolfen. Higher drive? Yes. But balanced and wonderful off switch that comes from both parents and very biddable (as both parents are). He would do fine in an active family home.
> 
> Granted, very different lines, but just an example of a von den Wolfen dog.
> 
> What does your breeder expect this litter to throw?


She didn't talk about the litter in general with me. She originally matched me to a litter based on my expectations of a pup. After evaluating them and working through the picking/matching process with me in addition to my expectations changing some, she said she had a pup from a different litter (the one this thread is about) that would be a better fit for my family and expectations.

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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Ask her what she expects? I would think she would know her dogs better than anyone. What kind of drive? Capping drive? Ability to settle? Activity level? I would ask her all of that.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

While I have some of the same concerns as Carmen and Lee, I also have found that Aly tends to bring good handler sensitivity. The pup could very well end up having a lot of drive, but be easily handled and enjoyed in your life. 

The biggest thing is............ do you trust your breeder?


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## taytay (May 13, 2014)

lhczth said:


> While I have some of the same concerns as Carmen and Lee, I also have found that Aly tends to bring good handler sensitivity. The pup could very well end up having a lot of drive, but be easily handled and enjoyed in your life.
> 
> The biggest thing is............ do you trust your breeder?


Yes I do. 

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## jmdjack (Oct 2, 2009)

OP, don’t stress out. You’ve gone to a knowledgeable breeder who has experience with the dogs being bred and who, I believe, has had the opportunity to evaluate the puppies. For me, this would carry significant weight. That said, I mean no disrespect to those commenting on the pedigree and am not suggesting you ignore the insights provided (I always pay close attention to substantive pedigree discussions from knowledgeable, experienced folks). Just additional information to be considered. If you are concerned, I would discuss it with your breeder and take it from there. 

I will say this: I have “DDR” female with lines similar to those being discussed. I also have a WGWL male. Other than my male being linebred on Aly, not a lot of similarity to the pedigree of the litter you are now considering. However, his pedigree contains a number of dogs that tend to be discussed frequently, some with strong opinions. I often read pedigree discussions where judgments are based upon certain dogs in a pedigree that also happen to be in my dogs’ pedigrees. Not too infrequently, the judgments and predictions associated with those dogs are inconsistent with my personal experience with my dogs. I will also say that had I made decisions based upon internet talk about some of the dogs in my male’s pedigree rather than trusting in the breeder I selected, I may have passed on a dog I am very thankful to have. Again, I am not suggesting that those commenting on the pedigrees are wrong or that you should ignore them, I am just giving my perspective. 

As for “drive”: ,a generalized notion of “drive” tends to be the focus when recommendations are made about working lines going into companion homes. In many ways, my male - who is the highest drive and most intense dog I have had - has been quite easy. I certainly can’t say he has been more “difficult” than the DDR female (and in some respects he is easier), although they are quite different. Overall, I consider both to be easy to live with and that is with young kids in the house, but everything’s relative. In my view, there is a more to whether a dog will be suitable match than “drive.” Moreover, much depends upon the particular home rather than a generalized notion of what a companion home is. 

Good luck!


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## MilesNY (Aug 12, 2010)

OP, I have a DDR/Czech line dog from schraderhaus and I have a WGWL bitch (line on Aly, but not much other similarities). I have to say, while my bitch came from a different breeder, and is certainly waaaay more dog than what you were looking for. That was assessed accurately by her breeder at 7 weeks. She has litter mates in pet homes, one I believe is even in a funeral home. She does have an great off switch and is my best house dog. 

My male who I got from Jean, again matched to me for my requests which were working/breeding prospect, I think would be waaaay more dog that what you were looking for. He is a lot to handle, doesn't have an off switch and in general would make a much harder pet. I know some of his sibling are in pet homes and the owners are very happy. The bottom line is you can get great pets out of ANY line, any breeding. If Jean is telling you that puppy is a better fit, I would trust her. She sent me exactly what I was looking for in my boy and has been there for breeder support ever since. 


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## taytay (May 13, 2014)

jmdjack and MilesNY thanks for that perpesctive. I do trust Jean and do agree that there can be different levels of drive and personality characteristics in each litter. I do appreciate everyone's opinion and will follow up with Jean and triple check this is what's best moving forward and hopefully I'll have an awesome little girl her in a few weeks. 

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## Caja's Mom (Aug 6, 2003)

I own the Zender son Lee is talking about. He is and was awesome working dog he did both Schutzhund and flyball in his younger years.
Errow is finally slowing down at almost 9, he is a dog that needs a job. 
He thrived when he did bite work/schutzhund 3 days a week and flyball on the weekend plus hiking in between. He does settle in the house as long as he gets plenty of "work" time. 
My only wish for him was that he was a little bit more biddable. Awesome tracking and protection scores but his ob was always marginal at best. He works for the toy and reward not the person. 
With Zender I would expect some drive leaking, they will be vocal dogs when working and playing. Especially with the Ufo cross that brings additional drive and possessiveness.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Caja's comments are something to think about.

If you trusted the breeder so much the question would not have been posed. 
Ask who the pup from the first litter, that was destined for you, was sold to .


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## Caja's Mom (Aug 6, 2003)

Don't get me wrong I love Errow to death and would take another in a heartbeat. 
If I would have started out with him as my first dog, think it would have been really frustrating.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Going back to just a general comment on breeding - not a comment on the breeder or her recommendations

Using Errow's pedigree as a starting point....and talking to other people with Zender progeny and grand progeny....and having had Ufo progeny and many grand progeny...

Certain dogs become known for prepotency - the genetics that seem be passed and to be prevalent throughout generations....Both Ufo and Zender are dogs who were strong genetically....

Trish and I are good friends and I have spent some time with Errow (as well as her husbands dog who is a half brother from the F litter).....

I also followed a couple other Zender pups and grandpups from this litter. Originally I was to bring Basha back to the US bred to Zender - but chose to go a different way because I was not sure I could properly place a whole litter of Zender x Ufo pups here....

Lee


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