# Puppy stumped...



## BaronRhinesCityThunder (Apr 29, 2010)

Ok, so i dont get it. I just got this puppy a few days ago and im stumped. Hes is 12 weeks. Both of my puppies parents are regiestered GSD but the more pictures i look at...he doesnt look pure bred...so im stumped...i mean, hes got the ears and the walk, and the nose but its his color that is throwing me. here are some pictures. maybe you guys can shed some light! thanks!


----------



## Holmeshx2 (Apr 25, 2010)

I could definitely be wrong but I'm not sure he's PB. Not sure what it is its something in the muzzle area for me kinda has a Borzoi type look. Of course it could just be the pictures either way hes absolutely adorable. There are a few GSDs posted on here where their dog was a unique color as a pup and as they got older and blew their coats it kept changing and they were sables. There is another thread on the board where people can look at tell you what color the dog is and things like that you might wanna try reposting there if you don't get anyone over here.


----------



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Although your puppy is quite handsome, I don't think he is purebred GSD. 

I can't quite put my finger on his cross, but he isn't purebred.

He is a cutie-pa-tootie though, just look at those humungo ears and that tiny tiny head... I LOVE it!!!


----------



## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

i think GSD x rabbit  he's a cutie thats for sure

did you get to see the parents or the rest of the litter? what did they look like


----------



## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

He's very cute, but I seriously doubt he's PB. Where did you get him from?


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I was thinking photos of a fawn and a dog kind of mixed up. Those ears. He will be interesting when grown.


----------



## BaronRhinesCityThunder (Apr 29, 2010)

Well...no, i didnt get to see the father, only the mother. The lady said the father wasnt hers....and since i was really wanting a male, she only brought out to me the two males she had left and his brother looked identicle to him. to a t.....on his AKC registration form it gives the name of both his parents and their DN number...so how could that be if he wasnt pure bred? I know its expensive to get a DNA test done but if I do get one done and he isnt pure bred could their be a law suit towards this lady for giving false paperwork or something?


----------



## BaronRhinesCityThunder (Apr 29, 2010)

*Puppy stumped...Color?*

Ok, so i dont get it. I just got this puppy a few days ago and im stumped. Hes is 12 weeks. Both of my puppies parents are regiestered GSD but the more pictures i look at...he doesnt look pure bred...so im stumped...i mean, hes got the ears and the walk, and the nose but its his color that is throwing me. here are some pictures. maybe you guys can shed some light! thanks! 

BTW: i didnt get to see the father, only the mother. The lady said the father wasnt hers....and since i was really wanting a male, she only brought out to me the two males she had left and his brother looked identicle to him. to a t.....on his AKC registration form it gives the name of both his parents and their DN number...so how could that be if he wasnt pure bred? I know its expensive to get a DNA test done but if I do get one done and he isnt pure bred could their be a law suit towards this lady for giving false paperwork or something?


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

He looks pale, but like a sable.

Here's a bunch of 7 week old (maybe younger?) sable GSD puppies:










If you went to a responsible breeder you can just give them a call and they will answer your questions. That's why we pay so much and take so much time to find a 'responsible' breeder. Because they are open and honest and will clear up any issues coming up. 

http://www.jlhweb.net/Boxermap/reputablebreeder.html

http://www.bonafido.org/backyardbreeder.htm


----------



## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

That is the oddest GSD puppy I have ever seen.......... If it is indeed a GSD. I have no idea.


----------



## milkmoney11 (Feb 11, 2010)

Why exactly would you think that it isn't a GSD? Is it just the color? 

I think that looks like a powder blue or cream color. I don't see anything in those pictures to assume it wouldn't be. Looks fine to me...but plenty on here no more than me.


----------



## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

It's face, head and ears dont look like any GSD puppy I have ever seen. Within this year so far I have seen 5 GSD puppies and not one of them has a face, head or ears that look like that puppy


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Double post.....

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breed-standard/134783-puppy-stumped-color.html


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

well there can be different fathers in a litter of puppies. Did you see a picture of the father?? what colors were the parents just for curiosity sake?

He could very well be purebred just a lighter sabling.


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

DOUBLE POST (and I can't fix it!))

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-puppy-stuff/134779-puppy-stumped.html


----------



## BaronRhinesCityThunder (Apr 29, 2010)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> DOUBLE POST (and I can't fix it!))
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-puppy-stuff/134779-puppy-stumped.html


sorry...a few people on my other post told me to move it here to get some better answers and i didnt know how to exactly "move" it...:blush:


----------



## BaronRhinesCityThunder (Apr 29, 2010)

milkmoney11 said:


> Why exactly would you think that it isn't a GSD? Is it just the color?
> 
> I think that looks like a powder blue or cream color. I don't see anything in those pictures to assume it wouldn't be. Looks fine to me...but plenty on here no more than me.


Yeah, i guess just the color. I guess maybe because i spent like an hour yesterday looking at other puppies online and every single one of them had a black (or dark) muzzle...i dont know. I mean, im not by any means saying he cant be PB but i just wanted to see what you guys think!


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Can you get pictures of him walking or standing? From the front and the side?

It might actually be the way he is holding his head in the first two pictures. When I look at the third picture, where you can see him from the side it actually looks very GSD like.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Could be faded pigments but don't beat me to it... 

However, get some different pics from him. Where he actually stands or walks. From the side and from the front. Your third picture does look gsd like but the first two throw me of. 

It's hard to tell if he is laying on the couch.


----------



## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

He looks like a deer. I've never seen anything like it.


----------



## milkmoney11 (Feb 11, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> It's hard to tell if he is laying on the couch.


Yeah...I look at some of the "bad" pictures of my GSD and it doesn't look like a GSD. When they are turned or sitting in awkward positions they don't quite look right. Usually the pics you see online are going to be the best ones the people have or "cute" ones. Puppies go through awkward stages too. I think you're fine, but they do have those DNA tests for people who don't know what type of dog they have and they only cost about $150 at my vet so if you are really concerned you could look into it.


----------



## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

FuryanGoddess said:


> He looks like a deer. I've never seen anything like it.


I swear I was just thinking that


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

i wished that DNA was mandatory in the US too. 

One good thing about the SV is that you can't fool around. They are all DNA tested to make sure that the dogs are really sired by the dog that's in the papers.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

maybe one of the parents was a "white"?


----------



## BaronRhinesCityThunder (Apr 29, 2010)

Man o man is it hard to get a puppy to stand still. lol


----------



## BaronRhinesCityThunder (Apr 29, 2010)

Moved here... The Breed Standard - German Shepherd Dog Forums


----------



## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Where did you get him? I also would like to see pictures of the parents.

At 12 weeks, he looks to be a lighter sable but he only has his puppy coat. All of those grayish hairs should come in banded black. He also has a very light undercoat with faded tan pigment. He will probably be what is termed a silver sable. Also he has no mask/reverse mask. His coloring actually reminds me of the dogs discussed in this thread...
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breeding-general/131728-black-white-wolf.html

As far as his ears and head...well he's 12 weeks old. Some puppies are all kinds of awkward at that age. He has huge ears, a narrow head, and a long slightly roman nose from what I can see from the posted pictures. Not necessarily unusual in GSDs. I think it's just the combination of everything together. 

I wouldn't go jumping to conclusions about his purebred status without seeing more pictures on his structure or knowing about the parents.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I thought that he looked like the dog in the link above, too! 
He will grow into his ears eventually, at least they are strong.
I would like to see pics of the parents and siblings.


----------



## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Based on his body shots I would say he looks GSD to me. Just a bizarre color. It's of course *possible* that a puppy that looks like this could come from some kind fo cross.

Get ready for it. Everyone from here to eternity will tell you he's a mix. In the end, what matters most is his personality and temperament, and what you think of him!


----------



## GSD MOM (Apr 21, 2010)

That is strange. In some of the pics he looks like a GSD 100%. But then in some of the other pics his face looks a little off to me. It's almost like the face is narrow...more like a husky but the coloring isn't husky like either. My Nellie had a deer stange. Where her ears were WAY to big for her body. I mean to an extream degree. So the ears don't look like a big deal.


----------



## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

From that other thread...these breeders are even in Florida and breeding for a color like that. Possibly your dogs are related?

Florida German Shepherds - Home


----------



## BaronRhinesCityThunder (Apr 29, 2010)

Mom was a black and red sheperd...definitely more black than red though and dad was traditional black and tan...ill try to get pictures from the breeder.


----------



## BaronRhinesCityThunder (Apr 29, 2010)

JKlatsky said:


> From that other thread...these breeders are even in Florida and breeding for a color like that. Possibly your dogs are related?
> 
> Florida German Shepherds - Home


well, i have to say...this is making me a fell a bit better..no matter what though..the BEST puppy ive had! already protective, the ONLY puppie (dog) that ive had that if there is people food in front of its face, doesnt move a muscle or try to snatch it!...VERY loyal..doesnt leave my side! No matter what, he's here to stay! :wub:


----------



## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

BaronRhinesCityThunder said:


> well, i have to say...this is making me a fell a bit better..no matter what though..the BEST puppy ive had! already protective, the ONLY puppie (dog) that ive had that if there is people food in front of its face, doesnt move a muscle or try to snatch it!...VERY loyal..doesnt leave my side! No matter what, he's here to stay! :wub:


 
And that is all that matters


----------



## bianca (Mar 28, 2010)

LaRen616 said:


> And that is all that matters


Here here


----------



## VaBeachFamily (Apr 12, 2005)

Loving the puppy won't change regardless.. 

BUT

If Cullen was off at all, and I didn't think he was a PB, I would in fact find out, and if he wasn't, I would again... ask for a partial refund. I guess it depends. If he came from a BYB especially, I would question it. Just a note:

I had a friend who paid around 2500 dollars for a puppy once. Cutest little puppy ever, but it grew up and was NOT at all like it was supposed to be. She went back to the breeder, and learned of a neighborhood " tramp" that looked a WHOLE lot like hers... they just used the papers from the male they had to pawn them off...


----------



## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

As others have mentioned, IMHO he looks like a sable GSD (with the paling gene????). 

Also, the "reverse mask" looks a lot like London in the Littlest Hobo - you've already referenced the other thread discussing this look. 

His head reminds me a lot of my Bruiser who's definitely purebred - he's what I call a "pinhead" with huge ears (you can see some pictures of him at all different ages by clicking on the link under my signature - select THE HOOLIGANS, BRUISER'S FIRST PORTRAITS, and BRUISER'S FIRST YEAR to see some pictures).

The important thing is you love him and he's a great dog - can't ask for much more than that!!


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

he'll grow into those ears.


----------



## BaronRhinesCityThunder (Apr 29, 2010)

Haha..im sure he will!....a friend of mine told me he looked like Alf! lol...poor little guy...everyones making fun of him lol....hes so much better looking in person..pictures dont do him justice. I cant wait to see what he looks like grown up!


----------



## chevysmom (Feb 15, 2008)

Oh he is just too adorable! Reminds me of a deer in the first set of pics you posted.


----------



## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Well, he's cute but I think you're being BSed. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be able to get that color with a black and red and a black and tan mix? 

I'm not the most versed in the genetic side of it, but he definitely looks like he might be some kind of washed-out sable (I don't see what other color you'd call him) and I think the only way to get a sable is if one of the parents are sable.

But someone more versed on the subject correct me if I'm wrong!

Either way, he is freaking CUTE!!!! Those ears are some of the biggest I've seen.


----------



## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

GSDElsa said:


> Well, he's cute but I think you're being BSed. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be able to get that color with a black and red and a black and tan mix?
> 
> I'm not the most versed in the genetic side of it, but he definitely looks like he might be some kind of washed-out sable (I don't see what other color you'd call him) and I think the only way to get a sable is if one of the parents are sable.
> 
> ...


 
You know I hadn't really paid attention to that, but you're right. You cannot get a sable from 2 black/tan parents (red is just a darker tan, not genetically different). If neither parent was sable I would definitely question parentage.


----------



## unloader (Feb 16, 2010)

His tail looks like it has the triangle marking of a Malinois near the base. Although he doesn't have much of a mask, so that is what is throwing me off.


----------



## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

unloader said:


> His tail looks like it has the triangle marking of a Malinois near the base. Although he doesn't have much of a mask, so that is what is throwing me off.


The black triangle is a hallmark of sable GSD puppies. It seems to be the first place that the black hair comes in. You can sort of see it on these pictures of my dogs when they were puppies...



















Cade's older here...but you can see where the spot was and how it's expanded into the back stripe of adult fur.


----------



## unloader (Feb 16, 2010)

Ahh, didn't know that! I don't have experience with GSDs (yet). I have been in the Malinois world for quite some time and the triangle is the hallmark for them as well.


----------



## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

I didn't know that about Mals. The only Mal I know in person is SUPER dark.


----------



## unloader (Feb 16, 2010)

JKlatsky said:


> I didn't know that about Mals. The only Mal I know in person is SUPER dark.


Here is a picture of my Mal, its kind of hard to see the triangle, but it is very defined on her, as well as the black tip on the tail.


----------



## BaronRhinesCityThunder (Apr 29, 2010)

I just want to thank you guys for all your input! Honestly...looks like to me that I wont know for sure unless i get a DNA test done....but to me. I tihnk hes GSD. Ive been doing a bit of research and Im convinced. Ill try to post a video of him standing, walking and running. When he's fixed on something just standing there, one back foot is forward, one is back and his hind end is tucked in...isnt that a trait of the GSD? hes got the trot they have...i know this doesnt mean everything...but im convinced! =) I took him to the doggie park yesterday and a lady was there that had bred GSD's for almost twenty years and shes said hes definitely purebred. So that made me feel better as well! 
It was so cute...last night he slept in the bed with my boyfriend and I and i swear that dog didnt sleep at all! he slept at the foot of the bed all night right at my feet and whenever my boyfriend wsa roll over or make a sound...Baron started growling. It was so cute!...at least i thought it was. hes definitely going to be very protective over me!:wub:


----------



## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Actually, I hear the DNA test aren't that accurate for lineage.

He does look GSD-eaque to me. I just don't think his mommy and/or daddy is who it says! 

But you'll have to keep us posted with pictures as he grows so we can see if he will be a sable for sure.


----------



## BaronRhinesCityThunder (Apr 29, 2010)

GSDElsa said:


> Actually, I hear the DNA test aren't that accurate for lineage.
> 
> He does look GSD-eaque to me. I just don't think his mommy and/or daddy is who it says!
> 
> But you'll have to keep us posted with pictures as he grows so we can see if he will be a sable for sure.


Well we shall see. I called AKC and she looked up both of the parents and the colors were correct. dad was blk/tan..mom was red/blk...she said it is possible for them to re produce sables..it just all depends on whats in their back ground.


----------



## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

I didn't think that sable could be recessive? Is that true? I thought if there was sable in the line, the dog would be sable? Am I wrong? I wonder if it could have been a black in tan sable or red, almost where you couldn't see? 

the mom of my pup is a light sable, looks almost like a solid light red. dad is a black and tan. All the pups are red sable w/ varying degrees of black in them.


----------



## BaronRhinesCityThunder (Apr 29, 2010)

I honestly, have no idea. Im not good with the whole geneology...but im just going with what the lady at AKC told me...not that she would probably be the best person to go to unless she specializes in GSD :Shrug:


----------



## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

Either way, he's a cutie!


----------



## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

4GSD - Coat Colours

Ok, here is that this site says...


> *The Basics:* In genetics, some genes are dominant, co-dominant, recessive, etc. Dominant genes will 'override' recessive genes if both are present, meaning for a dog to physically exhibit a recessive gene, the dominant gene cannot be present.
> 
> 
> *Example:* The Saddle Back pattern is_ recessive_ to the Sable pattern. This means if two Saddle Back dogs are bred, there can not be Sable pups, because neither Saddle Back parent would carry the Sable gene (otherwise they would be Sable). Another factor that must be considered is whether a dog is _Homozygous_ or _Heterozygous _
> ...


----------



## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

There is a possibility that the father was a patterned sable and listed as a black and red (since he would have black and red (tan), but his saddle was sabled... I'll try to find a picture.


----------



## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

yeah, I think that was what my puppy's dad was. he looked kinda sable in the black areas but he had the saddle also. For then to make all sable babies, that's what I'm thinking might have happened w/ this pup.


----------



## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/genetic-issues/122328-dog-sable.html
there are a few GSDs on this thread that were listed akc as black and tan/ black and red..... but were sabled.  I know some examples are on page 3


----------



## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

The dark male and the girl w/ the purple beside him is my pups parents. I looked at his shoulders when I saw them and they looked really marbled w/ tan. Maybe someone w/ more experience w/ sables can tell for sure.


----------



## KCandMace (Apr 8, 2008)

I have sables with saddles. When they were pups it did not look like they would get saddles but they developed them over time.
Mace now.









Mace puppy.









But the OP pup looks GSD and coyote mix to me.?


----------



## Melly (Mar 21, 2010)

He could be PB he looks like he is just in an awkward phase... As for the DNA #s by the parents names that just means his Parents are Dna certified not him. You could send his Dna in and see if it comes back to match his parents the last I checked into it its $40 thru Akc ( been a couple years but sure its not changed to much) just give them a call if its really a big issue for you and find out for sure. Good luck he is a cutie either way.


----------



## BaronRhinesCityThunder (Apr 29, 2010)

Oh my godness....i think my pup is a coyote mix...take a look here...
Coydog, Coydogs, Domestic Dog Coyote Hybrid, Dogotes

it describes him to a T...hes always in a tight ball by my feet..doesnt really play like normal puppies do..etc...and look at the picture..hes almost looks identicle to it..what do you guys think?


----------



## bianca (Mar 28, 2010)

The heeler/coyote looks similar....kind of LOL


----------



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

BaronRhinesCityThunder said:


> Oh my godness....i think my pup is a coyote mix...take a look here...
> Coydog, Coydogs, Domestic Dog Coyote Hybrid, Dogotes
> 
> it describes him to a T...hes always in a tight ball by my feet..doesnt really play like normal puppies do..etc...and look at the picture..hes almost looks identicle to it..what do you guys think?


That was my first inital thought.

Looks like a Coyote mix... I think you really need to contact the "breeder" and have a discussion with her because if your dog is a Coyote mix, you are going to have really think if this is something you can handle as a pet owner.

These dogs are part WILD ANIMAL and so temperament, drives, stability, etc. are going to be very different than it would with a fully domestic dog.

I would research, research, research and definitely discuss this with the "breeder" who sold you the puppy. If she won't answer her phone - go there in person and wait to speak with her!

This is why buying from a reptuable breeder or going through a rescue is so important. 

Good luck to you.


----------



## BaronRhinesCityThunder (Apr 29, 2010)

Thanks guys..yes, i am going to call her tomorrow and have a nice discussion with her..as well as calling AKC to see if they have the parents that are on his paperwork and see if they have their DNA on file..send in his DNA and we shall see.


----------



## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Just as a note...all you really need is Dad's DNA on file...If Mom whelped the pup then it's got to be hers.


----------



## BaronRhinesCityThunder (Apr 29, 2010)

JKlatsky said:


> Just as a note...all you really need is Dad's DNA on file...If Mom whelped the pup then it's got to be hers.


oh yeah. lol....:blush: i knew that!


----------



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Are you SURE that the mother you saw is the mother that whelped your puppy?

I would be testing your puppy and both parents.. I wouldn't trust the "breeder" with a grain of salt right now.


----------



## BaronRhinesCityThunder (Apr 29, 2010)

elisabeth_00117 said:


> Are you SURE that the mother you saw is the mother that whelped your puppy?
> 
> I would be testing your puppy and both parents.. I wouldn't trust the "breeder" with a grain of salt right now.


well, the mother definitely looked like...her "teets" (sp?) we sagging and the pups i did see were all over her...so granted...at this point..she MIGHT not have been the mother..im just going to play on the safe side and have the mother and father tested...as well as the pup...


----------



## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

I just can't get over how much those first two pix look like a white tail deer.. it's shocking!


----------



## BaronRhinesCityThunder (Apr 29, 2010)

FuryanGoddess said:


> I just can't get over how much those first two pix look like a white tail deer.. it's shocking!


haha! i know right!!!! hes one of a kind lol


----------



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

It's the shape of the face/muzzle that does it for me. I've never seen a GSD with a muzzle like that. It is almost deer like. 

From the shape of the body, there definitely looks to be GSD in your pup, but i'm not seeing a purebred GSD. 

Your breeder saying that both parents are black and tans is red flag number 2. Two black and tans are not going to produce such a light sable.

My guess is you've got a very cute GSD mix puppy there. The mix, i'm not too sure about. Those Coyote dog pictures definitely resemble the face of your pup, so i'd definitely say thats a possibility. 

Please update us when you speak to your breeder and let us know how it goes. Good luck.


----------



## BaronRhinesCityThunder (Apr 29, 2010)

***update** puppy stumped...*

Ok, so i called AKC again..they do not have either parents DNA on file...but the mother was registered as a Bi Color...so is it possible for a blk/tan and bi color to produce sables?


----------



## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Nope, sorry. Someone needs to be sable to get a sable. Sable is dominant over every other color, so if a dog carries the sable gene then it is sable in color. Like I believe someone else said, it's *possible* a patterned sable could be mistaken as a black/tan...


----------



## BaronRhinesCityThunder (Apr 29, 2010)

Ok, well guys..we have a huge law suit on our hands...now she doesnt even know for sure who the mother and father are...she has two females (which i didnt know and she didnt tell me)...and two fathers....one father the blk/tan and one who is white...well, she first told me she gave the blk.tan dog to her son who lives in brooksville (about 2 hours away from her)...than she told me that dog died in august...(ok well, if that dog dies in august, and my pup was born 02.03.10...than it cant be the father...and he is the one who is on my pups akc paperwork...)than she told me that the blk.tan dog ran away from her sons house so they dont know if the dog is dead or not but she is hopeing it makes its way back to her house (which keep in mind, is two hours away)...THAN she said she has hair from that dog on a pillow if i want it for DNA....well DUH...IF she has two females that are the same color, and had these pups..how will she know what hair is whos?...the list goes on and on...on top of that, she doesnt have a breeders license...according to FL st Statute...she was supposed to have me a sign a paper stating my consumer writes..that didnt happen...so...she doesnt know who is mother, who is father, etc...and if this is the case god knows how many pups are out there with the wrong info on their akc paperwork...their for all their generations information could be wrong!!!!!!! man o man....


----------



## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Keep in mind that a white with a black/tan still would not produce that coloring on your pup. Whatever he is, he is super cute! Good luck with everything.


----------



## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

How can you NOT know the mother? Where did the pups come from? Who was nursing the puppies? WTF? I'm sorry you have to go through this. I know you love your pup already and don't want another one, but you have every right to get your money back. I don't know how much you paid for him but you got taken and for that I'm very sorry!

I hope you figure this whole mess out, but most importantly, I hope she somehow looses the ability to sell any other dogs in the future.


----------



## BaronRhinesCityThunder (Apr 29, 2010)

Oh she openly admitted that she doesnt have ANY sable german shepherds...besides the puppies she had..therefore..according to genetics something is TOTALLY out of whack here....

and yes, i know i can get my money back..i paid $650 for him..and she pleaded with me not to get lawyers involved..and that she would give me my money back and let me keep the puppy...but that isnt enough..its not even the money i am worried about...i want this whack job to get all over her animals...at least the dogs taken away from her...whatever they can possibly do!!! 

what she did...or "said"...was that she has two females and two males...two blk red females...one blk tan father..one white...well i guess they had their litters one day apart and one litter only had 3 puppies and the other had 7...so she put them together...so because she said she saw them "do it"...she assumed abouy my puppies parents..which doesnt make sense because if you have 10 puppies that all look alike...not only how do you know what puppies belong to what mother..let alone father...
she didnt bother to tell me any of this when we were there...
all i have to say..is shes going down!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Wow. So basically, you have a sweet puppy that could be almost anything with fradulent papers. I suppose with a white sire, the coloration *could* be possible if the white was masking a sable gene. But it doesn't sound like this lady has any clue at all.

The DNA kits usually need a mouth swab, not hair. So that wouldn't really work either. American Kennel Club - DNA and the AKC

And just as an FYI, in FLorida she is not classified as a "pet dealer" unless she sells more than 2 litters a year or 20 animals. So there may not be much in the way of legal recourse unless she's selling more than just this litter on a regular basis. Pet Law, Division of Animal Industry - FDACS

(13) For the purposes of subsections (5)-(12) and (16), the term "pet dealer" means any person, firm, partnership, corporation, or other association which, in the ordinary course of business, engages in the sale of more than two litters, or 20 dogs or cats, per year, whichever is greater, to the public. This definition includes breeders of animals who sell such animals directly to a consumer.

The way I see it, you've got 3 choices. Let it go and keep the puppy. Ask for a partial refund since the puppy was sold under false pretenses. Or return the puppy. I would also look into seeing if she can be reported to the AKC. I wouldn't be surprised if she knew she had some wacky puppies and was hoping to pass them off "with papers" and just used her one dog's AKC info.


----------



## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

She flat out lied and misrepresented herself and her dogs. I'm sure the AKC would take issue w/ that also, don't you think?


----------



## BaronRhinesCityThunder (Apr 29, 2010)

well, she is doesnt consider herself a breeder..but indeed..considering she did have two litters within a year...florida considers her one...BUT in pasco county they do not require a breeders license..*There is no breeder’s license in Pasco County. If you intend to house, train, breed, sell, board or groom animals, obtain an occupational license from the Tax Collector’s office and comply with zoning rules. which she doesnt have....*
*under section 12 in fl statuten she was supposed to provide me with a written notice of consumer rights...pursuant to section 828.29, Florida Statutes.*

*under section 16 A pet dealer may not knowingly misrepresent the breed, sex, or health of any dog or cat offered for sale within the state....which she openly told me she isnt sure who the parents are..sounds like she misrepresenting the breed to me...*


----------



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Out of curiosity, how did you hear about and what made you choose a pup from this "breeder"?


----------



## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

I'm not saying that what she did was right, or ethical, or anything good in any way. I understand you are upset that you were lied to and that your trust was abused. But there is a certain amount of buyer beware involved here that I think should be a lesson to anyone looking to purchase a puppy in the future. You were taken advantage of, and this was in part possible because you were an uneducated consumer. 

Having several friends in the legal profession, you need to understand what it says that you are reading. And that realistically, the only restitution that you can likely get is the purcahse price of the puppy. The law generally provides you the consumer the ability to be put back to even. The $650 you're entitled to probably won't cover the fees for filing a lawsuit. You will not get this lady's dogs taken from her as long as they are well cared for. If they were not licensed, you can probably get her fined by Animal Control. There is also no governing body that can tell her to not breed her animals. You might be able to get her in trouble with the AKC for fradulently obtaining papers. 

In the FL statues, Section 12 and 16 only applies to pet dealers. So she would have had to have sold MORE than 2 litters or 20 animals. And this would of course need to be documented. I'm not sure that those 11 puppies would meet that criteria. Also, even if she did meet the criteria, things get sticky with the "knowingly misrepresent". All she would have to say is that she didn't know...

From what I can see in the Pasco County Ordinances- the magic number seems to be 9 dogs. After 9 dogs you need to have a kennel license. I woudl bet that 4 dogs is well within the rights of her zoning. She did need to provide you with health certificates and she is supposed to keep records of the sales. http://search.municode.com/html/10281/level4/PI_C14_AII_D4.html#PI_C14_AII_D4_s14-101


But that's really about it. At least that's the way I see it, although admittedly I am not an expert. My advice would be to let go of your anger and make a decision. Are you going to keep the puppy? If yes, get your money back since it was offered and love the heck out of that little one. If not, take this as a lesson and find a more reputable breeder next time.


----------



## BaronRhinesCityThunder (Apr 29, 2010)

Lucy Dog said:


> Out of curiosity, how did you hear about and what made you choose a pup from this "breeder"?


She had an ad in the classifieds in the paper...as wel as online in the classifieds...and when i went there she already had the males outside (because she knew i wanted a male)...so i ddint have a reason (at the time i didnt think about it) to go inside...and i asked her about the father..and she told me he was in brooksville...and she had the mother (at least the mother she "thinks" it was) outside..and she never told me about having another male or another female..so i didnt have a reason to question her...i also didnt know about the genetics of sables...i also didnt know that AKC doesnt REQUIRE DNA of the mother and father as well as pups to be certain they are purebred...i thought AKC did!...so this is my fault for not doing my research but at the same time..im glad i did my research AFTER and i caught her..plus i got a WONDERFUL puppy out of it..pure bred or not...:wub:


----------



## BaronRhinesCityThunder (Apr 29, 2010)

JKlatsky said:


> I'm not saying that what she did was right, or ethical, or anything good in any way. I understand you are upset that you were lied to and that your trust was abused. But there is a certain amount of buyer beware involved here that I think should be a lesson to anyone looking to purchase a puppy in the future. You were taken advantage of, and this was in part possible because you were an uneducated consumer.
> 
> Having several friends in the legal profession, you need to understand what it says that you are reading. And that realistically, the only restitution that you can get is the purcahse price of the puppy. The law generally provides you the consumer the ability to be put back to even. The $650 you're entitled to probably won't cover the fees for filing a lawsuit. You will not get this lady's dogs taken from her as long as they are well cared for. If they were not licensed, you can probably get her fined by Animal Control. There is also no governing body that can tell her to not breed her animals. You might be able to get her in trouble with the AKC for fradulently obtaining papers.
> 
> ...


absoloutly..you are 100 percent right and i realize that this is my fault as i was un educated and im not denying that...its not worth filing a suit as you said...but i will be contacting AKC and animal control....


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

In my area there is an animal flipper that just got called out...she was selling sick animals,getting free ones off CL to resell. The local AC is only citing her for not keeping up on licenses for her current dogs. It is really sad that this person gets away with taking advantage of people and animals...buyer beware for sure!
It was amazing all the posts on CL warning about this person, and it was just on the local news Accusations fly that West Michigan couple is cashing in on animals | kalamazoo, accusations, flipping - Top Stories - WWMT NEWSCHANNEL 3 but nothing will be done, she can still flip animals legally. I wonder if this isn't the case with your unique puppy? Did the "breeder" really breed him??


----------



## BaronRhinesCityThunder (Apr 29, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> In my area there is an animal flipper that just got called out...she was selling sick animals,getting free ones off CL to resell. The local AC is only citing her for not keeping up on licenses for her current dogs. It is really sad that this person gets away with taking advantage of people and animals...buyer beware for sure!
> It was amazing all the posts on CL warning about this person, and it was just on the local news Accusations fly that West Michigan couple is cashing in on animals | kalamazoo, accusations, flipping - Top Stories - WWMT NEWSCHANNEL 3 but nothing will be done, she can still flip animals legally. I wonder if this isn't the case with your unique puppy? Did the "breeder" really breed him??


who knows....she wouldnt even tell me if they were born at her house!! she has so many different stories its not even funny!...i did see the other males...so i think one of her females did have them..but definitely not the fathers shes claiming...

so i called her again telling her that i talked to my lawyer and now she doesnt wanna give me my money for the dog...so we'll be going to court i suppose....


----------



## KCandMace (Apr 8, 2008)

OMG What a ! 
I am so mad for you.
I am sure when she gets a certified letter from a lawyer she will pay up to stay out of court.
What has AKC said to you?


----------



## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

Hello, BaronR....

This is a facinating turn of events. Please stay with the forum and update us as the puppy grows. I'd love to see how he turns out. 

Plus, we're a nice bunch (usually).


----------



## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

Holy crap. I just read all of this! Wowzer! 

I hope you got your money back and got to keep the pup (I'm guessing this was the agreement?). I also hope you do stay on here and keep us posted on his progress...I can't wait to see how little Bambi turns out! (He really is adorable! Those ears!! :wub


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

If you are going to take this to court, you might want to be prepared to lose your puppy. It's not always a case of you get the dog and the money. The judge might order you to hand over the puppy when you get your money back.

Just something you need to discuss with your lawyer. 

And ask yourself...is all the hassle and headaches worth going after this woman? You'll go to small claims court and if you lose then you'll foot the bill. If you win, she'll have to pay court costs.

Are her animals abused? If not, animal control isn't going to do anything. The most you could do is turn her into the AKC and see if they can do something.


----------



## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I'd be worried about losing the puppy if you really like him. 

I'd turn her over to the AKC. I imagine that they have some sort of action for people fradulently registering dogs?

Also, it's not CSI. DNA testing and even storing properly is very expensive  so it's completely unrealistic to ever expect something like that to happen. Unless everyone wants to start paying 10K for BYB dogs.


----------



## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

Gosh, what a web this thread is spinning. The more I read, the more confused I'm getting. What exactly do you want now? 

Since Jax is probably right that if you go to court, you would probably either have a choice of getting your money back or be able to keep your puppy, but not both. Since you sound like you're happy with the puppy, do you really want to spend the money going to court just to be able to keep him anyway or at this point are you willing to give him back, get a refund, and find a puppy somewhere else? Or do you want to go to court and force the breeder to have the puppy DNA tested. 

Since the odds are that the WGSD is probably the sire, why don't you ask the breeder to have him, the two bitches and your puppy DNA tested to determine who his parents are. If the test comes back that the WGSD is the sire and the dam is identified, the breeder can probably straighten out his paperwork with AKC. If this could be resolved, would that be the end of what you're after or what else do you want to do?


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

GSDElsa said:


> I'd be worried about losing the puppy if you really like him.
> 
> I'd turn her over to the AKC. I imagine that they have some sort of action for people fradulently registering dogs?
> 
> Also, it's not CSI. DNA testing and even storing properly is very expensive  so it's completely unrealistic to ever expect something like that to happen. Unless everyone wants to start paying 10K for BYB dogs.


That is why I am glad that we have DNA testings with the SV.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

JKlatsky said:


> I'm not saying that what she did was right, or ethical, or anything good in any way. I understand you are upset that you were lied to and that your trust was abused. But there is a certain amount of buyer beware involved here that I think should be a lesson to anyone looking to purchase a puppy in the future. You were taken advantage of, and this was in part possible because you were an uneducated consumer.
> 
> Having several friends in the legal profession, you need to understand what it says that you are reading. And that realistically, the only restitution that you can likely get is the purcahse price of the puppy. The law generally provides you the consumer the ability to be put back to even. The $650 you're entitled to probably won't cover the fees for filing a lawsuit. You will not get this lady's dogs taken from her as long as they are well cared for. If they were not licensed, you can probably get her fined by Animal Control. There is also no governing body that can tell her to not breed her animals. You might be able to get her in trouble with the AKC for fradulently obtaining papers.
> 
> ...


I'm in agreement with this. If the woman is openly admitting she doesn't know who the puppy's parents are, I would not even have dealt with her in the first place. I bought my last dog from someone I consider to be a good friend, and even so I have more paperwork on that dog than my house and car combined. I've seen the papers from the stud owner certifying the breeding date, I have copies of the papers signed by both the stud and dam owner going to the AKC for registering the litter (stud is SV registered in Germany), my original AKC papers for registering my dog (kept the papers and did it online), plus all the usual stuff like the bill of sale with the vaccination labels, AKC and UKC registrations and certified pedigrees, etc. This is not because I think my friend would cheat or I don't trust her but you just have to cover all bases when you are making a purchase like a dog, especially if it matters to you who the parents are and how the dog is registered. The last thing I want is to lose a good friend over a mishap with paperwork. 

In the descriptions of the breeder and how the puppy was chosen and sold there are a dozen red flags. I would chalk it up to a lesson learned. Accept the purchase price back since that is what she offered. If you take her to court they are going to want to know why these questions were not asked before the dog was purchased, then they will probably refund you the purchase price. She is being honest with you even if her honest answer is that she doesn't know who the parents really are. I'm not defending her at all, just looking at this from how the courts are going to see it. I doubt you would be awarded any kind of punitive damages when the breeder is being honest now and offering to make amends.


----------



## mysablegsd (Aug 7, 2009)

BaronRhinesCityThunder said:


> absoloutly..you are 100 percent right and i realize that this is my fault as i was un educated and im not denying that...its not worth filing a suit as you said...but i will be contacting AKC and animal control....


If you don't get your money back, go the small claims route. Minimal filing fee and document EVERYTHING. Start with the newspaper add and everything else.


----------



## mysablegsd (Aug 7, 2009)

This dog reminds me of yours.

German Shepherd Dog - Medium - Baby - Male - Dog - Sir Lancelot | Weimar | eBay Classifieds (Kijiji) | 3010410


----------



## GranvilleGSD (Mar 28, 2007)

Can a WGSD produce a sable? Isn't white a masking gene or something so the dog could potentially be genetically a sable? It's possible that the WGSD was the sire. I would notify the AKC so that the registrations of the other puppies could be placed on hold until DNA tests were done to verify parentage. This way, if other people who purchased these pups were planning on breeding them, they would not be passing on fraudulant liniage.


----------



## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

A sable must be involved in creating another sable......black, b&r, b&t, bi-color, blue, liver & white....no sables.
Liver, blue, white, pale b&t...can all effect the "pigment" gene in the dogs...and create "odd" looking colors......


----------



## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

My understanding was that a dog could be genetically sable but the white masking gene hides the sable expression. Which would be different than the gene that affects pigment in dogs like the Black and Silver, or Silver Sable. It's hypothesized that the reason tan pigment seems to be affected in dogs produced by whites has more to do with not knowing the genetic expression of the tan pigment in the white dog rather than an actual effect on the tan expression by the White Masking gene.


----------



## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

robinhuerta said:


> A sable must be involved in creating another sable......black, b&r, b&t, bi-color, blue, liver & white....no sables.
> Liver, blue, white, pale b&t...can all effect the "pigment" gene in the dogs...and create "odd" looking colors......


The white color of a WGSD is caused by a separate masking gene. Therefore, it's possible for a WGSD to produce the sable coloration because they still carry the normal color genes found in the GSD breed which can include the gene producing sables. 

The masking gene is different than the paling gene so doesn't necessiarily go hand-in-hand with pale pigmentation.


----------



## White German Shepherd (Jun 8, 2010)

All that matters is that you like him.... I personally would have taken it back because it looks nothing like a GSD. You also mentioned that the sire was not on site, did she show you a pic? Anyways good luck, does this breeder have a website


----------



## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

Any update on this?


----------

