# [redacted]



## Parmida Esmaeilpour (Jun 17, 2019)

[redacted]


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Well, there's no denying he'll bite people now. I'd kennel him whenever you aren't in control of him and not put anyone else in the position of having to manage him. I'd be very watchful over how he actually behaves with family members too. If you think you were in denial about him till now, you may have missed something there too, not just with strangers.


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## Parmida Esmaeilpour (Jun 17, 2019)

[redacted]


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

Parmida Esmaeilpour said:


> Thanks for your comment! Just to clarify, I don’t mean in denial about his propensity to bite. Even before this, I would have fully expected him to bite someone who came into the house unannounced. I mean to ask whether I am in denial about this actually being “aggression” or if this is a normal protective behaviour of a GSD?


Most dogs are mainly bark, no bite. Just a personal opinion, but I don't ever expect a dog to bite unless someone has displayed genuine intent to cause physical harm. Even then, most dogs back down. It's an amateur's opinion, but I don't think it's a good thing to have a dog that would bite indiscriminately just because someone walks in. It could end up being a family member one day instead that they don't recognize because of hats, clothing, etc.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Its aggression. That's what "protective behavior" is. We'd all like a dog with the discretion to only bite when its completely warranted and appropriate, but I don't think there's any guarantee that will always be the case. In general, I think a dog that will bite,,, will bite. I think you have to respect that and manage him. I'm not sure where you are, other then you aren't in California. I think a fair case can be made your dogs bites could be justified, but you'd be getting sued for so much here,,,,,,, So that's one reason I'd say manage him, control the situations he's in. Its up to you to make sure no one else gets hurt by accident.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

I think you might be trying to explain away a bad situation to yourself. Yes, GSD’s are protective and territorial, but they shouldn’t be biting humans. 

What was your reaction after the bites? What actions did you take when the biting was taking place? Was there blood drawn, or did he just nip or mouth them? 

My pool guy always notifies us that he’s at our home because we let him know we have a very territorial GSD, and she would not react well to him walking into our backyard. He was great at notifying us, but one time, we had the flu, and didn’t hear him knocking. He let himself in the back gate. I was woken to what sounded like a dog mauling a man. I jumped out of bed and ran outside. My GSD was circling the pool guy, lips and hackles raised, barking and growling as loud as any police dog I’ve seen. But she DID NOT bite. She was giving him plenty of warning to get off her territory. She immediately came when I called her. The pool guy was so shaken up, I felt awful for him. But he did learn a valuable lesson, which is not to walk into our back yard if we don’t give him the okay. (We locked the dogs inside while he’s cleaning the pool).

If she had actually bitten him, I would be highly concerned. If she bit two people in one week, it would be beyond concern, and we would be setting at the vets office with a muzzle on as soon as they opened. I’d ask for here to be looked over head to toe, and get bloodwork, etc done to make sure there wasn’t any medical reason she acted out. She would be leashed to me at ALL times, and crated when I couldn’t have her leashed. And I would be on the phone with a GSD trainer ASAP. 

My girl has bitten one man, twice. I did all the above. Both times, he was holding his hands over the patio wall, and startled me. You’d think he would learn the first time. Anyway, I’d always gotten creepy vibes from this guy, and it ended up being well placed. Shortly after we moved, he was arrested for serial rape, and the death of a teenage girl. He is the only man she has ever bitten. She has growled at plenty if she didn’t know them, and a quick correction had her attention back to me, and we carried on our merry way. 

I would most definitely not trust your dog around anyone else as a precaution until you get all the above things taken care of. Rule out medical, and then get with a great trainer with GSD experience, and use the leashed to you or crated method until the issue is solved.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I think legally this is a grey area. He bit on his own property, right? But now he knows how effective biting is and next time he might bite sooner. The weird thing is, if one of these people had been a burglar, your dog would have been a hero. Your job is to prevent bites. Now you know. So don't have anyone else handle him when you are gone. He should be in a solid kennel or indoor crate when you can't watch him.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Seeing the garbage man approaching grandma?!? Yeah, I can see that being a problem. Lots of dogs see the garbage man as a foe. They come with a big honking slow moving truck and they take stuff that our owner has put on the tree lawn. Without speaking to anyone and they go on. It's not natural. And then, one of these smelly strangers is coming toward a member of our pack that is more frail than the rest of the people in the pack. 

And, then the people delivering furniture, just walking into your home, yeah, that could be a problem for a dog who feels that home is his territory. 

Some dogs are fine with strangers in most situations, but even someone they kind of know if they put a hand in the owner's vehicle, will show aggressive/protective behavior. Is this normal and acceptable? Well, I think there are two kinds of dogs: one type will just bark, and when in a situation where biting would be appropriate, will probably dance around, run, maybe do a chicken-poop type nip at a retreating ankle, leg or butt; the other type will engage with an intruder, and bite them. 

I don't think either of these types of dogs is incorrect. With training and confidence building, the first type of dog might engage, and maybe that dog is just not a protection dog. As long as the dog is gentle and not nervous around family and family friends, the dog can make a wonderful companion animal, and even a deterrent. 

The other type of dog, the one that will bite given some circumstances, is also correct. Proper socialization, leadership, and management can prevent most lawsuits. 

There is no reason "grandma" who is with it enough to take the garbage to the curb, is not with it enough to shut the door to make sure the dog does not get out, now that she knows the dog will bite. And the door to the house should be locked so that the delivery people or neighborhood children cannot just walk into your house and get bit. 

The problem is that, while they can ensure the safety of your dog, will they? Are you willing to put the life of your dog in their hands? I see it as though you have two choices: to move out, so that you have the power over the front door locks; or to put up a solid kennel, either in the basement, garage, or yard, and when you are home with your dog, the dog is out with you, when you are at work or at school, the dog is properly secured in a comfortable kennel. 

A kennel is a LOT cheaper than moving out. Some things to consider: if it is outside, is there privacy fencing around so the dog does not bark at everything that moves? The base needs to be solid so the dog cannot dig out of it. It has to be big enough for the dog to run, drink, poop, and still be able to be clean. A mud base in a rainy area will mean a dog that will end up being an outdoor dog, because every time you come home, you are not going to want to bathe the dog first thing. An indoor outdoor kennel with a doggy door into a garage, basement, or mud room, with something like an x-pen on the inside. Proper kennel on the outside is ideal. 

The whole thing is safety. If the kennel is totally outside, he will need shelter/a dog house in there so that he is protected from the elements. 10'x15' is a good size for a GSD. If you get it in panels, when you move out, you can take it with you. They generally come in 5'wide by 6' high panels, six to a kit, that cost about $300. This will make a 5'x10' kennel. If you buy two of them. you will have a 10'x 20' kennel, with two of the panels being gate panels. Or, if you use the side of the house or garage to connect to, you can buy one kennel and it will give you a 10x10' or 5'x20' or you can buy one extra panel and have 10'x15'. 

If the dog is bored and starts eating the house -- not as normal for adult dogs, you can buy an x-pen and run that along the inside by the house to protect the house -- that is a little cheaper than buying extra kennel panels. 

I think your dog is ok. But I also think that if the volume of incidents increases, what happens with your dog may be taken out of your hands. 

When I was a kid, we had a dog, Princess, who was about 3 years old when my 12 year old brother was sleeping on the porch and the bitch was loose with him, sleeping on the porch. A dominos delivery man was passing out flyers and he ran up the steps to put a flyer in our door. Startled awake, Princess jumped up and bit him in the abdomen. My dad rushed out of the house and threw the dog inside and apologized profusely to the elderly delivery guy. The guy was understanding, and the dog never bit anyone else. Stuff happens. They aren't robots. Sometimes they do make bad choices. It is up to us to protect them.


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

If this dog has good nerves, I would train him (OB, OB, OB). If he has bad nerves, still train but I wouldn't trust him. Get with a GOOD trainer to evaluate him. If he is a solid dog, maybe do some bite work with him and teach him when appropriate to bit. Although, I defer to those in that area...might make things worse. Here is my thinking, this dog likes to bite...give him an outlet. A good trainer is a must. Otherwise, your dog might see a child as a threat and act. Last thing you want on your conscience is a dead or disfigured kid.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

What Selzer said. This is a GUARDIAN breed. Most of the guardian instinct has been bred out of it. Your dog is an exception, but given the nature of a guardian breed, both bites are completely understandable.

However, the wider world likely doesn't see it that way. If you value your dog's life, take whatever steps needed to make sure it doesn't happen again. 

You can try keeping the dog secure in the family home. If you find they can't be trusted - they leave doors unlocked, they feel sorry for the dog, and let it out of the crate because it's whining - you will have to move out.

Your dog's life is at stake here...don't fool yourself!


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Having an ecollar on may also give more freedom.. I keep one on my girl rotationally. She is not untrustworthy but her bark is over the top scary, especially if running towards someone (on our property unannounced).. A beep is all it takes is my voice isn't carrying the authority (or distance,she stops and double back...


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Germans shepherds (not all)do have protectiveness instincts and like to bite or will bite it is in their blood and a instinct. Not all have to be trained to bite - training would make them bite stronger and harder and more confident in what they are doing because they are backed up by their owner getting praise, practice. Control is practiced. 

If my family and I were sleeping at night or if I was not home during the day and a stranger entered the house with my kids at home. I would expect that person to get bitten. It’s why I will always have german shepherds. 
If I was home and allowed a unknown family or friend to in the house had conversation the dog would be fine. If a known family member or friend just walked into the home because of an unlocked door- they would be welcomed because through experience these people are much welcomed. German shepherds who are protective do not bite known family members and friends who they know who walk in the house unexpectedly. They can smell them through the door and will be greeted with affection. 

Protective gsds will bite unknown people if they perceive their people are in danger. A dog’s perception is different then a humans. Who knows what intentions lurk or people’s history - their actions though can be misinterpreted by the dog. I can see in op experience I can understand why the dog took these situations as a threat by the practice of protecting their property against service workers- garbage men, fed ex, etc. with approach to grandma and unknown service worker entering the house with uncertainty and uninvited. This has to be understood by the owner and why the dog must be kept safe, well trained and made sure he is kept out of trouble. I would also crate/kennel him if family members are not capable of keeping him safe or gate off a room so the dog can be trained to go into the gated room when they have to open the door for delivery service. Your grandma did let him at once so it can happen again so it is to keep this in mind.


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## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

Jenny has a very good point that a dog's perception is different than a person's. This is why it is our job to protect dogs "from themselves" when we have protective dogs. Nothing strange about a GSD actually biting- not ideal in this sue-happy society but if someone jumped my fence or a stranger walked in unannounced at night, I can't say what would happen but I'm guessing they would not stay long.

Most GSD will bark a lot before a bite, unless they perceive a real threat. 

This GSD will bite. At the least, in the states, the dog would need to be quarantined (usually at home) for a period of 10 days. For any bite (even a police dog is subject to this, I believe). I am guessing the OP does not live in US, or she'd have been sued or thrown in jail by now... given the level of craziness dog-law has sunk to... 

For anyone interested, it is worth your while and money to consult with a lawyer on what steps you can take to protect you and your dog if the dog does protect you from home invasion or worse on your own private property. Sometime Beware of Dog signs (posted visibly and at specific intervals) do protect you, sometimes not. Gates or fences also make a difference. No Trespassing signs are sometimes the way to go. Good idea to install security cameras, too. 

And of course management of our dogs is critical. It's sad, but the law is not on the dog's side, at the moment, even sometimes in the event of a home invasion.


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

In addition to keeping the doors locked and putting the GSD in a secure area when you can't supervise (crate, basement, your room), you could also build a secure locked and covered run in your backyard--if the kennel/run was locked, your family couldn't let him out even if they wanted to. If it is financially feasible to move out and still be near your family, work, ect, then, why not? Whatever you do, and I'm sure you already know this, you have to take precautions to ensure the safety of (legitimate) people who visit your property. If he bites the wrong person, you could end up in legal troubles and your dog taken away. I would not be pleased if a delivery person entered my house without me. My GSDs make such a racket, however, I'd think someone was a little crazy to come inside when I'm not there.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

What I want to point out about the garbage collector bite is that you said he bit the hip TWICE. When a dog strikes multiple times in attacking a human, I think it's a lot more serious than when it just makes contact once and then retreats or barks. Your management obligation with this dog is very great.

In most U.S. states, there's no legal "gray area" about dogs that bite people who are licensees or invitees (i.e., on you property with permission), like a garbage collector or shop delivery person. Ask a local lawyer or animal control officer whether that's true where you live. In that kind of context, it may be strict liability, and only a question of how much it's going to cost you or your homeowners insurance carrier -- who will probably cancel your policy or at least stop covering the dog. Many states have a 3-year window to sue (a few have shorter, a few longer). When you renew the policy, even if a claim hasn't yet come, you might have a duty to notify the insurer of the bite history now, as it's a material change in the risk they're insuring (check with your agent about that). Keeping a separate canine liability policy on this dog would be money well spent -- it's a separate insurance policy that only covers this one dog.


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## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

Magwart- any suggestions on carriers for canine liability insurance carriers? I'd suggest anyone interested in dog law do some research on this, but if anyone has a policy, I'd be curious how it's worked out.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

@*Saco*, I've never needed one of these policies, so I can't offer a personal rec. I think a good agent should be able to arrange it - I think it's all "surplus lines" (meaning not from a regular, state-approved insurance companies but instead from specialty companies that do one-off kinds of specific policies). I think there's a company out of FL writing these policies --but I have not idea how they're rated or what the claims experience is.


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## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

Thanks, after all these stories here and in the news, I'm going to look into it, just to see what is available.


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## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

https://dogbitelaw.com/insurance-for-dog-owner/where-to-get-dog-owner-liability-insurance

For anyone interested, see above for canine liability coverage information. We insure our vehicles, maybe insuring our dogs is a good idea, too.


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

Saco said:


> Magwart- any suggestions on carriers for canine liability insurance carriers? I'd suggest anyone interested in dog law do some research on this, but if anyone has a policy, I'd be curious how it's worked out.


Call Amica. They don't have banned breeds, get an umbrella (about $200 extra a year on top of homeowners). That will cover you beyond anything homeowners would cover.


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## Gers4lyfe (Aug 3, 2016)

Parmida Esmaeilpour said:


> My 3 year old fixed male GSD bit two people in the last week. First incident involved my elderly grandmother leaving the front door wide open as she went to put garbage by the curb. Garbage man saw her struggling and came to help her. At around the same time, dog casually strolled out the front door to see a strange man on our property approaching my grandmother and bit him on the hip (twice). Bylaw enforcement came by and he was determined not to be a ‘dangerous dog’ (requiring muzzle outdoors) in light of the circumstances.
> 
> Today, owner of an antiques shop stops by our house (unexpectedly) to drop off some furniture we had purchased. Only my father is at home, upstairs, and the dog is behind the door barking. The gentleman claims to have heard someone say “come in” so he opens our unlocked front door and is tackled by dog and bit (twice).
> 
> ...


Your dog is doing what is natural. I dont beleive it to be a biting issue.

The first situation certainly is explainable.
The second, the guy no matter his intentions was unlawful entry.

I appreciate your concern as it is a grave matter. 

I received excellent advice. "These dogs are bred to protect. Muzzle them anytime you take them off your property"
Similarly my wife informs people to call ahead so she can open the gates and ensure our personal protection dogs are where they need to be. With her.

Good luck.


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J320A using Tapatalk


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

You have a family problem. Your family members are irresponsible with your dog and cant be trusted. This is a dog that must be managed all the time. They can’t ever allow him near strangers again or you will lose him.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Certainly, obedience train the dog. Every dog should be obedience trained, and that does not mean a six or eight week class. It means training, training, training, until that bond between you and the dog is spectacular. 

Protection training with the dog is a little more dicey. I think that whether the dog's actual bite will be stronger and the dog more confident, is immaterial. The big thing that can be learned is control, that is, having a dog that is ready and in the process of going "all in" with a bad guy, at a word/command, to stop and just bark or return to you. That ability to get the dog into a state of attack, and then out of that state, always under control, makes the dog itself much less likely to bite the wrong people. 

However the law does not necessarily see it that way. If you have trained the dog in protection and it bites someone, your liability might be higher. 

Now, here's the thing, you want are really stable dog for bitework. Dogs bite most of the time out of fear, not aggression, not protection. They bite to remove a threat, and when ordinary folks (people not there for any criminal reason) cause a dog to bite, there is always the possibility that the dog is unstable. Maybe the probability. It doesn't mean your dog is mentally wrong, just that a more confident dog in the same circumstances might have evaluated both situations better. 

Years ago, I spent the day at a street fair here in town with my big blanket back GSD, Rush. There was food, loud music, police lights and sirens, kids running, kids throwing those stupid snaps that sound like little fire crackers. And it got dark. (There are no friendly strangers after dark.) Rush was perfect through it all. And then up comes my brother in law, who the dog did not know. He was drunk. He started talking to me and out of know where slammed his hands together over my dog's head making a huge noise. Rush stepped back a few steps and raised his head to look at where the noise came from. 

My BIL said, "That's why I don't like shepherds, they are all scared." The dog wasn't scared at all. If he was scared, leashed to me like he was, he would have bitten my BIL. I told him so. The dog was assessing the situation and realized there was no need to do anything. 

I don't know what the state of trainers are in bitework either. You do not need to have any certification to train dogs. And while some folks are very knowledgeable and ethical, and will turn down your money if the dog is unsuitable, there are probably plenty that will take your money and blame you or the dog for any damage caused by his ineptitude. You almost have to be an expert to know what to look for in a trainer. Remember that it is not the trainer that has to live with the damage, it will be you. And you will have the liability. And some folks, find that they cannot manage the liability. When that happens, then the right thing to do is to put the dog down. 

Right now, you have a dog that you know will bite, who has bitten in a couple of situations that could be considered understandable. Allowing this dog to bite another person who is not waging an attack on your family is criminal. It does bad things to the reputation of our breed. You know, and you can ensure that it does not happen again. Anything short of that, is a huge fail. Where a court somewhere may take your dog and put it down. And that would be a shame -- putting the dog down, because it is so foreseeable and preventable. But if the dog bites another non threatening person, then the courts should take the dog, because of utter irresponsibility.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

OK to the base question - Do you need to .(move out) assure containment of your dog? YES. Whether than means finding another place to live or finding a way to manage your dog "remotely" because the family seems prone to do a bad job of it.


(and I stopped reading at the bottom of page 1)


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## atomic (Mar 28, 2016)

In my eyes (and his) he’s a good boy! He’s a dog not a human and can not assess situations like we can, in his mind his pack member and den were threatened and he did what he felt necessary to neutralize the threat. 

My dogs would never let someone inside my house unless I’m there with them and tell them it’s ok. That’s part of their job! Nobody needs to be coming into my house if no one else is here, period.

I do agree that your family members are irresponsible in looking after the dog and if they were addressed these situations would easily be avoided. Now that you know he will back up his bark you need to be extra vigilant it doesn’t happen again. You will lose your dog and be sued.


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## Katsugsd (Jul 7, 2018)

Personally, I would move out and take the dog with me. I'm curious why the shop owner would still open the door with a barking dog on the other side of it (I certainly wouldn't). I agree with obedience training and lots of it. Crating your dog when you aren't home for the time being, might help - my first trainer suggested a lock on the crate since my husband would let the dog out when I left for work and he'd destroy things (husband would go to work leaving him out). I'd get him used to a muzzle as well, just in case.



selzer said:


> I don't know what the state of trainers are in bitework either. You do not need to have any certification to train dogs. And while some folks are very knowledgeable and ethical, and will turn down your money if the dog is unsuitable, there are probably plenty that will take your money and blame you or the dog for any damage caused by his ineptitude. You almost have to be an expert to know what to look for in a trainer. Remember that it is not the trainer that has to live with the damage, it will be you. And you will have the liability. And some folks, find that they cannot manage the liability. When that happens, then the right thing to do is to put the dog down.


 Suspect at best, at least in my area of the US. I agree you almost have to be a expert to know what to look for (or have someone who knows who's who to ask). I've come across a lot of trainers that can only train one type of dog one specific way, and it's frustrating. 

I apologise if you have mentioned it already OP, where are you located? Maybe someone can offer a suggestion.


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## rabsparks (May 11, 2013)

Sabis mom said:


> Do you ever actually say anything or do you just promote your book?


I try to share my experience with the various GSDs that I have owned over the years. I have attempted to use the parts of the book that are applicable. I am sorry that you don't find the information viable. The case in point was a lesson that I unfortunately learned and one that I thought would help the Post originator. 

Second, the funds (all the funds) from the book are and have been going toward schools and/or organizations that are trying to find a solution for hemangiosarcoma. The proceeds from the book are supplemented by my personal funds. FYI. You asked and I answered.

Rick Bajackson


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

@rabsparks promoting your book is against forum rules unless you're an approved vendor.


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## rabsparks (May 11, 2013)

dogma13 said:


> @rabsparks promoting your book is against forum rules unless you're an approved vendor.


And here I thought doing something to advance that illness in GSDs was commendable. I guess not. So PLEASE FORGIVE ME FOR TRYING TO AID IN HEMANGIOSARCOMA RESEARCH. BTW, please take my name off of your posters. I won't be posting in the future.

Thank God the foundation that I am a director of is a private foundation.

Rick Bajackson


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

rabsparks said:


> And here I thought doing something to advance that illness in GSDs was commendable. I guess not. So PLEASE FORGIVE ME FOR TRYING TO AID IN HEMANGIOSARCOMA RESEARCH. BTW, please take my name off of your posters. I won't be posting in the future.
> 
> Thank God the foundation that I am a director of is a private foundation.
> 
> Rick Bajackson


No-one said that your contribution to hemangiosarcoma research was anything but noble.

Why jump to that conclusion? 

This forum incurs expenses which are paid by advertising revenue. Those that pay to advertise wouldn't do that if the forum allowed non paid advertising.

It's a simple matter of following rules. It's nothing personal. If you think you have a case for discounted advertising because of the cause to which you donate, you would have to take that up with the advertising team. 

Do you think that Animal Planet would run advertising for you for free?


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