# Why crate if housebroken?



## Mayasmom (Jan 4, 2012)

Im a little surprised after reading the previous thread about, being robbed, & reading how many members here keep their dogs crated when away from home. Just curious as to why? 

One of the reasons we got a GSD was to protect our home & family. Not much good if she is in a crate. I have woken in the night to find her sleeping in the middle of the living room floor. She has a nice cushy bed beside mine. My neighbors were fighting in the street weeks ago. Woke me up from a sound sleep. I found Maya waiting by the front door. She was sitting staring at the door, listening to the neighbors. 

Maybe Im putting too much faith in her as a protector. I cant imagine a burglar breaking in with a protective GSD on the other side of the window or door. There are plenty of warnings, we have Beware of Dog signs posted.

So my question is, if you crate, why?


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## Scarlettsmom (Jul 12, 2011)

One word comes to mind: DESTRUCTION!

I do not crate Scarlett...NOW. We had to when we first got her because she ate our stuff...expensive, dangerous stuff. For her safety and our sanity, we had to crate her until she gradually became trustworthy.

That was our situation and crating was a godsend for us. Scarlett will still eat anything leather that is left out (UGG boots, wallets, belts, purses, shoes...) so we are tasked with making sure the house is "Scarlett proofed" (knowing that NOTHING is GSD proof, only GSD reistant) before we leave. We close off the bedroom doors and make sure the bathroom doors are shut too. The kitchen trashcan is a favorite and I have YET to find a good way to keep her out of it (she can open cupboard doors, step on pedals and wave her paw/tail to activate the electric ones) so our can lives in the garage.

Crating is a necessity for so many owners. Consider yourself very lucky that you don't need to. It's also a choice for many too. I think the reasons for crating will be as varied as the GSD breed itself. :0)


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Depends on how you define housebroken. Kaiser has not pottied in the house in a long time but he will eat anything he can find. He'll climb shelves to get to it too. He's crated for his own safety.

Holly is also housebroken but she can be aggressive toward strangers so she is crated for her safety and the safety of anyone who may enter my home wanted (firefighters if they had to) or not (burglar). 

Raven has earned the freedom to be loose.

With 3 dogs, leaving them all loose together could be dangerous if they decided to fight for whatever reason.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

It's simple. For a young dog who likes to chew, it keeps them and the house safe from being destroyed. It prevents them from chewing on electrical chords, computers, sofas, or anything else when they're crated.

I live in a pretty safe area. I even leave my keys in my car at night, so it's very safe where i live. Never any break-ins or any crime, so the last thing I need a GSD or a dog in general is for protection or as a deterrent.

Plus a snarling dog is no match for a determined burglar with a gun. I'd rather have them safe in the crate. A tv is replaceable, a dog isn't.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

My 2 older dogs have been free to roam the house since they were very young, they were not destructive at all. Lakota is 2 (today) and she still will steal things and chew given the opportunity. So she gets confined to the kitchen. I have no idea when I will be able to fully trust her. I can leave her free for short trips but I wouldn't leave her free in the house all day while I'm at work.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

Its going to depend on the dog and what ones priorities are. I don't have my dog for protection, I think that is silly. If my dog protects me, great, I would like for that to happen if she is with me, but I do not have her for that reason. She is first and foremost a family member and my friend. 

Many people think their dog will protect their home. More times than not, this is not the case, so you run the risk of your dog getting out or getting hurt in the event of a break in. Now, for your general B&E people that don't know you, dogs are good to ward people off. They don't want the hassle.

If someone is willing to go through GSDs that are barking at them, then they don't have good things in mind. My stuff, is not more important than my dog. This doesn't mean I always crate, but it is a good valid reason for those who do.

Not to mention, its not all about going to the bathroom. Some dogs can never be trusted left alone and will get into things that can hurt them. Not to mention if you have more than one animal of different species. When I had cats, dogs were crated...yes they all got along, but really, I wasn't going to risk my dog getting ticked at the cat and all it would have taken is one good bite. I have a terrier mix and a lovebird. The lovebird likes to tease the dog. Ya, thats not something I can "train" out of the bird. So I crate my terrier when I cannot watch them because he will, if given the chance, tip the cage over and have a birdy snack. While I am home, no problems at all. If I am gone, I don't trust him.

Not to mention its good to keep a crate around in the case of emergencies. My terrier is mending from a broken leg, he has had to be in his crate so much lately to keep him from hurting it more. So there is that aspect of it to.


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

I crate train religiously after owning a dog with destructive separation anxiety. He never really got over it, but did eventually stop being destructive and just "collect" random objects that I own and sleep with them. If I couldn't find my hairbrush, a left shoe, or a wallet...I'd check his crate or sleeping place.

I also live in an area of CA where thank the lord there still is a fairgrounds (barely) and many animal shelters, however I have a feeling that when the next 7.0 earthquake hits again that said shelters will be overwhelmed. God forbid that my dogs get loose cause I have fallen fences or collasped walls and get put in a crate due to lack of shelter space. I want the crate to be a refuge, a save haven, in tramautic times. 
See the videos of Hurrican Katrina? They had animals, stacked like cordwood in crates. 
During the Loma Prieta earthquake, my boss volunteered with Oakland Animal Services and they were forced (due to space) to put dogs who barely were allowed in the house into crates. Many of these dogs were beyond terrified and were breaking toenails and teeth on crates until they were sedated.
These are not things that I would knowingly put my dogs through. I have no warnings for earthquakes but I can be prepared and be prepared for my dogs' sake.


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## Stellae (May 13, 2011)

I crate my boy when I'm gone because we live in an apartment, so there are occasionally workers who come in (recently, to do things like fix holes in the walls from squirrels living inside them). Yes, technically management is supposed to give me "reasonable notice", but they don't always - and even if they did, there's no guarantee I would remember at 7.15am when I stumble out the door to work if it was a day he needed to be crated or not. 

He likes his crate. Every morning after his last potty break before I leave he gets to choose a toy or a chewy to take into his crate, and he's always excited to pick something and then prance off with it. 

I can go to work and not worry about what he's getting into while I'm gone, or if he's damaging the apartment. Admittedly, he has yet to show interest in dirty dishes or the kitchen garbage (for example), but that doesn't mean he wouldn't develop an interest if he were bored and free to roam. Also, I know that he behaves well in his crate, in that he feels secure and doesn't bark or be otherwise noisy and bother the neighbours. That's not true if he can "guard" from the sliding glass door.

He's just going to sleep during the day while I'm gone. I'd rather he sleep in his crate than on my pillow.

If/when I own my own place, he might be left free while I'm at work. But probably not, because I'm paranoid aranoid: These days, while sometimes I let him be free for short (1-hr max) times while I'm gone, usually he just comes with me on those kinds of trips.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

I keep my dogs crated when we are not home so I can ensure the safety of my cats. And I did not get my dogs to protect my stuff from a robber.


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

Destruction as well. We tried Jazz out of his crate and he was fine for 2 months. Then we noticed a little nibbling but ignored it. Then we came home one day to dvd's strewn all over the floor, some in pieces . Bunny gets free reign, but Jazz will remain crated a little while longer.


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## Bluecatdemoness (Oct 7, 2007)

I crate for most of the reasons above. Namely, destruction. Kisses was allowed out of the house because she was not destructive. Denver, our mutt, will probably be crated when we are gone for the rest of his life because of destructive tendencies. Denver will get a sock off of the ceiling if it so pleases him. Jallora is only 3 1/2 months old, so she gets crated for destructive tendencies also.



> I keep my dogs crated when we are not home so I can ensure the safety of my cats. And I did not get my dogs to protect my stuff from a robber.


LOL, sort of funny but we used to crate our cat before leaving the house to insure his safety from Kisses, just in case. He had a nice size crate that was put up high out of reach on a table and he didn't mind the crating one bit.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I have had the refrigerator raided and a fire started in the kitchen by a German Shepherd. It really cured me of wanting them free in the house when unsupervised. 

Samba is horrible sounding in her crate when someone arrives. Most people step back off the doorstep and they can't even see her. I figure that is a deterrent. I had a friend whose dogs were mistreated by robbers. If someone breaks in, I hope they take my stuff and leave the dogs alone.


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

Samba said:


> I have had the refrigerator raided and a fire started in the kitchen by a German Shepherd.


Nice to know I'm not alone. Jazz raided the fridge too. How'd did the fire start?


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## Mayasmom (Jan 4, 2012)

I did not get a GSD to protect my stuff.

My husband has been in law enforcement for 11 years & doesnt know of any home burglary where the family dog was shot. Not even for "stuff".


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## Rua (Jan 2, 2012)

Samba said:


> I have had the refrigerator raided and a fire started in the kitchen by a German Shepherd. It really cured me of wanting them free in the house when unsupervised..


Yeah, I'm really curious about the fire as well! Storytime! 

I'm imagining this dog with matches in it's paws saying, "Right so, lads. Who wants barbecued sausages?"

LOL


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Mayasmom said:


> I did not get a GSD to protect my stuff.
> 
> My husband has been in law enforcement for 11 years & doesnt know of any home burglary where the family dog was shot. Not even for "stuff".


I know of one specifically where the dog was stabbed and lawn equipment in stolen. 

The lady in Oklahoma had her dogs poisoned in the nights before the men tried to break in and she shot one of them.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Okay...human boys leave empty pizza box and wooden cutting board on the stove top....I leave knobs on gas stove...Gala counter surfs in the middle of the night. She turned on the burner flame and then there was all that fuel left there. 

A smoke alarm is a good idea. Gala crawled back in bed after starting all that conflagration without even so much as a warning nudge for me.


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## Rua (Jan 2, 2012)

Samba said:


> Okay...human boys leave empty pizza box and wooden cutting board on the stove top....I leave knobs on gas stove...Gala counter surfs in the middle of the night. She turned on the burner flame and then there was all that fuel left there.
> 
> A smoke alarm is a good idea. Gala crawled back in bed after starting all that conflagration without even so much as a warning nudge for me.


Oh my goodness! That's awful! lol

I'm thankful for this time that Juno is too short to counter surf. When that day comes, lord help us.


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

'housebroken' doesn't mean that if I let him roam free the house won't be broken! 

He's learned how to open drawers and cubboards, so even if he is housebroken that won't stop him from eating everything in the house and having horrible uncontrollable diarrhea all over the place.


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## vicky2200 (Oct 29, 2010)

I do not crate. I stopped using the crate at night with Ditto at 4.5 months. I just had her in my room with me. She did fine. She chewed on a few things, but nothing major. I wasn't going many places at the time and when the time did come to leave her, she was fine. Dakota never needed a crate. He was 99% house trained when we got him at 7 weeks. Mostly he just ripped up newspapers. Daisy was a terrible puppy. We crated her for awhile, until she pulled the door in and squeezed out injuring herself ($1200 surgery.) We haven't crated her since (she was maybe 4 months old at the time.) However, she couldn't be trusted alone. We took her with us, or one of us stayed home until she could be relatively trusted. Occasionally she still gets into something but nothing to bad. We keep dangerous items up when we are gone. I'm fairly sure that when I get my next dog I wont be relying on a crate for more than a few weeks to a month. In my opinion its mean and unnecessary once they get to a certain point in training.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think it totally depends on the dog and whether their 'person' is comfortable leaving them loose in the house or crated.

The majority of the dogs I've had, were crated as puppies/young dogs when I wasn't home, but when they earned the right to their freedom and could be trusted loose in the house, they were.

Right now, Masi (gsd) and Jynx (aussie) are always loose in the house when I'm not home, not for 'protection' reasons, just because they are fine loose in the house

Jag, (male aussie) is ALWAYS crated when I am not here to supervise, he's 11, and it's ALWAYS been this way with him, he's not destructive, would be fine on his own, but he is a "poop" stirrer, and I don't trust him to not start 'stuff" with the girls when I'm not here..


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I don't crate my three when we are away from the home. They are use to crates and I do have them when company comes over or if we have service people come in. My dogs aren't destructive and have proven themselves, one at a time. Though on Christmas eve, I left an almond cream cheese coffee cake way back on the bar part of the counter and somehow it was eaten. Frist time ever for counter surfing.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

vicky2200 said:


> In my opinion its mean and unnecessary once they get to a certain point in training.


It can be "mean" if used improperly or unncessarily. My two older dogs have been out of crates for years and years. They earned it. They don't fight with each other. They don't tear anything up.

Dog #3 is in the process of earning privileges out of the crate. (While I'm gone. He's been uncrated at night since 11 wks.)

Now it is a matter of three dogs in the house getting along. Someone will have to probably always be crated. Not because I'm mean, but because I can't risk them fighting.


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

vicky2200 said:


> In my opinion its mean and unnecessary once they get to a certain point in training.


Some dogs actually like their crate. It's their safe place. Jazz spends a lot of time in his crate by choice. When were home the door is always open and he chooses to be in it when he could choose to be anywhere else in the house.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

vicky2200 said:


> In my opinion its mean and unnecessary once they get to a certain point in training.


And at what point is that?

And as I typed this, Holly has broken out of her crate.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

fuzzybunny said:


> Some dogs actually like their crate. It's their safe place. Jazz spends a lot of time in his crate by choice. When were home the door is always open and he chooses to be in it when he could choose to be anywhere else in the house.


I agree, I have one crate set up, and when I leave there is a race to see who gets the crate(I leave the door open of course). Funny how habitual the dogs are.


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## rgollar (Dec 19, 2010)

I have to say I have two GSD and never had to crate them ever. Neither one of my dogs have ever chewed anything in the house ever. I of coarse made sure they proved them selves to me first. It also helps I have security cameras in my house to watch them when Im not there. My dogs sleep next to my bed and never had a problem. It also helps my wife does not work so they learn whats right and wrong non stop. When we leave the house they literally lay by the front door until we get back. I know this because I look back at the dvr and watch them live on my phone. Guess I am lucky with these dogs.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Tessa was the perfect puppy. At 8 weeks of age she was 100% perfectly housebroken - would go 8 hours without having an accident.

She never chewed on anything she shouldn't. She never chased the cats or bothered the other dogs.

So I never bothered crating her.

Fast forward to when she was about 3 or so. I come home from dinner and find her bloating. I throw her in the car and speed to the ER. They are able to stick a tube in her side to release the gas and all looks well. She has to stay until my vet opens in the morning so I head home to get some sleep.

It's not 15 minutes from the ER to my house and when I walk in the door I already have 2 messages on my phone. It's the ER - come back IMMEDIATELY.

So I rush back only to find out that when they tried to put her in one of the cages in the back she totally panicked. In her state of panic she managed to rip out her IVs and the tube in her side.

I ended up sleeping on the floor in one of the exam rooms with her - it was the only way to keep her calm.

Ever since then I make sure ALL my animals - dogs AND cats - accept being crated without a fuss.

A sick dog is already stressed. Adding something unfamiliar, like being put in a cage, on top of that can cause serious harm to the dog.


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## Mayasmom (Jan 4, 2012)

Emoore said:


> I know of one specifically where the dog was stabbed and lawn equipment in stolen.
> 
> The lady in Oklahoma had her dogs poisoned in the nights before the men tried to break in and she shot one of them.


I know of a burglary where the robbers took the dog, crate & all & threw it into the river.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> Tessa was the perfect puppy. At 8 weeks of age she was 100% perfectly housebroken - would go 8 hours without having an accident.
> 
> She never chewed on anything she shouldn't. She never chased the cats or bothered the other dogs.
> 
> ...


Wow. I never even considered this aspect.


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

Lauri, your post reminds me of a documentary I watched on the Katrina dogs. The rescuers said they could always tell which dogs were crate trained because the ones that had never been in a crate before were stressed and panicky.


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## vicky2200 (Oct 29, 2010)

I do realize that some dogs enjoy there crate but I still don't think it is right to leave your dog in a crate for long periods of times. I wouldn't feel comfortable leaving them for over 3 hours if they didn't find comfort in their crate. I guess I just don't understand how people can not be able to train their German Shepherds to be alone in their homes. They are a highly trainable breed and want to please. 

In response to the person who asked me at what point I find acceptable to leave the dogs alone: When the dog is well behaved while you are home. If he/she isn't chewing anything up while I am home, I will leave for short periods of time (20minutes to begin.) Before I leave I make sure I remove anything potentially dangerous that is accessible. When I return, if anything is chewed up I correct the dog. Even Daisy, who we playfully referred to as devil dog, is now able to be home alone IF the garbage is up.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

vicky2200 said:


> I do realize that some dogs enjoy there crate but I still don't think it is right to leave your dog in a crate for long periods of times. I wouldn't feel comfortable leaving them for over 3 hours if they didn't find comfort in their crate. I guess I just don't understand how people can not be able to train their German Shepherds to be alone in their homes. They are a highly trainable breed and want to please.
> 
> In response to the person who asked me at what point I find acceptable to leave the dogs alone: When the dog is well behaved while you are home. If he/she isn't chewing anything up while I am home, I will leave for short periods of time (20minutes to begin.) Before I leave I make sure I remove anything potentially dangerous that is accessible. When I return, if anything is chewed up I correct the dog. Even Daisy, who we playfully referred to as devil dog, is now able to be home alone IF the garbage is up.


Training them to behave appropriately *when you're not there* is tough! I do agree that when they are "perfect" when you are home with them, it is a sign they may be ready for more freedom.

If three hours is your limit on crating, though, my poor dog is abused. 

I certainly agree with working up the time increments and removing temptations. (I didn't do this recently and we had a small incident,,,) But a house is chock full of temptations to a bored dog. 

The one thing you said that really stuck out was: _"When I return, if anything is chewed up I correct the dog." _Correction after the fact? Do you think the dog is associating his prior behavior with the correction you're giving or ? And what kind of correction in such a case?


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

vicky2200 said:


> In response to the person who asked me at what point I find acceptable to leave the dogs alone: When the dog is well behaved while you are home. If he/she isn't chewing anything up while I am home, I will leave for short periods of time (20minutes to begin.) Before I leave I make sure I remove anything potentially dangerous that is accessible. When I return, if anything is chewed up I correct the dog. Even Daisy, who we playfully referred to as devil dog, is now able to be home alone IF the garbage is up.


Kaiser is 2 years old and has been in my home for over a year. He is perfect when I'm around but if I leave him in the living room loose and go to the bathroom with the door closed for even just 1 minute, my couch is on the other side of the room. He has climbed my built in bookcase to get to something he wants. I'd love to not crate him but my couch is currently held together by duct tape so he's crated when I'm can't watch him for his safety and my sanity and probably will be until he's an old man. If you have a way to keep him out of trouble when I'm not watching, I'm all ears (or eyes). That said, his crate is 3x bigger than it needs to be and is an eyesore in my living room but he has room to move around.

Miss Holly on the other hand.... she would be an angel if left loose but I don't trust her. I certainly don't want to think about what would happen if someone walked into my house while she was loose. So, she's crate in a reinforced crate in a spare bedroom.... again, for her safety and my sanity.


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## vicky2200 (Oct 29, 2010)

I wouldn't say that crating your dog for more than three hours is abuse, its just not what I would want for my dogs. As for how I correct them, I pick up whatever is chewed, show them it and say bad dog. Maybe my dogs have been particularly easy to train. All of my dogs, aside from Daisy, were able to be alone without any problem by the age of 6 months. Daisy could be alone with little problem by 1.5 years. Now at 2.5 years old she is fine if 1) the garbage is up 2) her treats are up and 3) any medications are up. She will still get in the garbage, eat a whole bag of treats, or chew on medicine bottles ( I think because she see's us giving the other dogs something and she thinks it is good.) Other than that she doesn't do anything. The worst thing Ditto ever chewed up was a box that had a bunch of graduation mementos in it. Dakota would shred papers when we left and got into the garbage once.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

vicky2200 said:


> As for how I correct them, I pick up whatever is chewed, show them it and say bad dog.


You realize your dogs have no idea why you're telling them "bad dog" when you do this, right? 

Dogs live in the moment. If you don't immediately correct while they're doing whatever you're trying to correct, you've missed the opportunity to correct. They don't think like humans.

It's like leaving a dog alone, they pee in the house, and 4 hours later you come back and tell them bad dog while showing them the pee spot. That's not a correction if they have no idea what they've done wrong. 

Catch them in the moment and correct. Once you miss that small window to correct, you're better off doing nothing at all.


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## NewbieShepherdGirl (Jan 7, 2011)

gsdraven said:


> Depends on how you define housebroken. Kaiser has not pottied in the house in a long time but he will eat anything he can find. He'll climb shelves to get to it too. He's crated for his own safety.


This. Sasha won't potty in the house unless she's really sick. She's about rather explode. But she will open up my pantry (how, I don't really know, but she will). She'll get up on the counter, and when she's done that she's eaten a glass butter dish, pizza, Chinese food (oh yeah, that was fun), coffee (one of her favorites for some reason. No cup of coffee is safe from Sasha). 

She has also opened my bedroom door where she was kept, opened my locked front door, and let herself out. 

It's for her own safety. I don't really want her to actually protect my house anyways because I don't want her to get hurt. I like that her presence is a deterrent, but that's all the deterrent I want her to be.


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## NewbieShepherdGirl (Jan 7, 2011)

vicky2200 said:


> All of my dogs, aside from Daisy, were able to be alone without any problem by the age of 6 months.


I think it might be a little different if you have your dog from a pup too (not saying that everyone that gets their dogs as pups have it easy with house training, but that maybe it makes a difference). When I got Sasha she was 2 and it was very clear that she had not only had very negative people in her life before, but that had also had very, very little leadership if any at all. Rules and boundaries were pretty clear boundaries were pretty new for her. Also, I think part of her having to find her own food (she wandered for quite a while before they caught her) has left her to be kind of a scavenger, like she's never really sure when/if she'll get her next meal. So I think these things have possibly contributed to how she is. She's good in the house if I'm there, but she'll push the rules on anyone else if she thinks she can get away with it. I'm also fairly convinced if I left the garbage out she'd try to sneak a snack.


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## vicky2200 (Oct 29, 2010)

Lucy Dog said:


> You realize your dogs have no idea why you're telling them "bad dog" when you do this, right? .


Then why did every dog I've ever had learn to alone by using this method?


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

vicky2200 said:


> Then why did every dog I've ever had learn to alone by using this method?


Maybe they just learned in spite of that method. 

It's pretty common dog knowledge that you don't correct after the fact. Look it up if you don't believe me. It's dog training 101.

*What not to do *

Never discipline or punish your dog after the fact. If you discover a chewed item even minutes after he's chewed it, you're too late.


Animals associate punishment with what they're doing at the time they're being corrected. Your dog can't reason that, "I tore up those shoes an hour ago and that's why I'm being scolded now." Some people believe this is what a dog is thinking because he runs and hides or because he "looks guilty."


Chewing: The Whys and Hows of Stopping a Gnawing Problem : The Humane Society of the United States


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## vicky2200 (Oct 29, 2010)

Yup, seven dogs learned how to behave unsupervised by 6 months of age, even though the only method I was using to train them doesn't work.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

vicky2200 said:


> Then why did every dog I've ever had learn to alone by using this method?


Dogs are insanely adaptive. They haven't managed to become indispensable to human beings for 100,000 years by only being able to learn one way. It's just that some training methods are a lot kinder than others. Some are easier on the humans and others are easier on the dogs. 

Every one of my dogs has been able to be out of the crate unsupervised by 6 months as well and I used completely opposite methods.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

vicky2200 said:


> Yup, seven dogs learned how to behave unsupervised by 6 months of age, even though the only method I was using to train them doesn't work.


Ok... i guess whatever works for you then. It just goes against anything I've ever done, read, or been told about how to train and correct dogs my entire life. But if it works for you to not have to put your dogs in doggie crate prison, more power to ya.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

vicky2200 said:


> Yup, seven dogs learned how to behave unsupervised by 6 months of age, even though the only method I was using to train them doesn't work.


Did you rub their nose in their pee if they had a potty incident? Not to be offensive, but it is the same principle. 

I don't believe that a dog has the ability to associate what he did 3 hours ago with the correction of shaking the offending item in his face. 

Glad it worked out for you, though. Maybe I've been doing things wrong. Anytime I came home to a mess or mistake, I said Oh you stupid owner, cleaned it up and went on. I've never punished a dog for something I didn't actually catch in the act. I figured that window of opportunity was shut.


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## KentuckyGSDLover (Nov 17, 2011)

Interesting sock to chew up, interestng broom to pull all the straws from, interesting headset those sometimes squeaky physician voices talk through to attack. Hey, those tassles on your quilt look like something fun, and quilt itself really should be unstuffed. What's that on the counter? Hey, what's that box under your desk? Your hands in gloves are little stuffed things - oops, sorry, it was your hand! What's this weird fabric hanging on the wall obstructing my view from the window? - needs to come down. Your carpet smells funny, and I think there may be something under it that I need to find. Dig, dig. Guilty eyes - oops, nothing there. 

The price of an intelligent, thinking dog that needs training to think in our own direction. A German Shepherd is a wild child and adolescent until age 2. At least. 

A crate is a safe place until they are guided to the potential they were bred to be. These dogs are powerful, intelligent, and require hands-on work, boundaries and guidance. Then they become your best friend and your guardian.


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## Mayasmom (Jan 4, 2012)

chelle said:


> I don't believe that a dog has the ability to associate what he did 3 hours ago with the correction of shaking the offending item in his face.
> 
> Glad it worked out for you, though. Maybe I've been doing things wrong. Anytime I came home to a mess or mistake, I said Oh you stupid owner, cleaned up and went on. I've never punished a dog for something I didn't actually catch in the act. I figured that window of opportunity was shut.



Maybe if you demonstrated to the dog your displeasure with what they did you may get better results. Dogs want to please their masters. If they dont recognize your displeasure then they dont think anything they did was wrong.

Maya tore a few things up early in the process, you could tell the minute after walking in the door cuz she looked guilty. Waiving a torn newspaper or whatever it was she tore up to show her this is why Im displeased is not cruel, IMO. 

When coming home & things are intact, she got lots of praises. Hey, the proof is in the pudding. She is 100% reliable.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Mayasmom said:


> Maybe if you demonstrated to the dog your displeasure with what they did *you may get better results*. Dogs want to please their masters. If they dont recognize your displeasure then they dont think anything they did was wrong.
> 
> Maya tore a few things up early in the process, *you could tell the minute after walking in the door cuz she looked guilty.* Waiving a torn newspaper or whatever it was she tore up to show her this is why Im displeased is not cruel, IMO.
> 
> When coming home & things are intact, she got lots of praises. Hey, the proof is in the pudding. She is 100% reliable.


Better results? I have two adults who are 100% and have been for years. The eight month old, with a recent exception, is excellent. 

I've heard many people say what is in red bold above. I don't believe it. I believe the dog is reacting to *you* - the look on your face, your stance, your voice, your displeasure. I do *not* believe the dog, at that moment, is making any connection whatsoever to what he did hours ago. I believe when you punish him with the item he chewed up, you are only confusing and scaring the dog and even worse perhaps, showing the dog he can't trust you because he doesn't have the slightest idea why he just got in trouble.

I don't think you can take credit for your method working, considering many people do *not* do that and end up with the same result. 

Just very different philosophies I suppose.


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## KentuckyGSDLover (Nov 17, 2011)

Each dog is different, too. But the general rule of thumb I think with GSD is that they are wild until about age 2. I think it's why it's common to see them abandoned between 12 mo.-2 years. I got my first GSD in the 1980s because he was an absolute terror and his previow owners couldn't handle it anymore. At age 2, shortly after we got him, he calmed down. Had they supervised him more and crated him when they weren't around, they'd have kept him, so I'm glad they didn't.  He matured into a fantastic dog that I'll never forget.


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## Mayasmom (Jan 4, 2012)

So a dog that requires crating after being housebroken is only done so due to their destructive tendecies so its only for their own safety? And dogs with "issues", ie. doesnt respect/accept its position within the pack & will challenge other pack members due to lack of leadership?


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

I don't allow same sex dogs to be in the house together unsupervised! Mac has freedom of the house EXCEPT for the dog's bedroom. When I'm not home, Slider, Bruiser & Faith are put in the dog room. Slider isn't crated, Faith's in a crate with a broken door that she opens the second I leave and joins Slider doing whatever strikes their fancy, and Bruiser is secured in his crate!


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

My male ate some of my wall and ripped up my carpet the first time I left him out of his crate so I didn't trust him until he turned 2 years old. He has been out of his crate for almost a year now, no accidents. 

I wont even attempt to leave my female out of her crate until she is older than a year old. 

If I ever had multiple females I would always have them crated while I was gone.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

I've already posted, so all I am going to add is that I am GLAD that I crate train and put them in there. It gives me peace of mind, AND comes in handy, ANY for cases such as them being sick helps prevent stress in the future.

I guess I should be taken away though, my dog has been in his crate past three weeks except for potty breaks. Darn broken leg. I don't want to think of how he could have hurt himself more if he was not use to being in his crate.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Echo enjoyed his crate for the longest time, until a stranger came into our house and he couldn't get out of it-- he went berserk. After that, he wouldn't stay in it. It got to where he tried getting out of his crate so badly he hurt himself, but with work that passed... although now he's gated into the kitchen, and I've found that works much better. Until he learns to counter surf...  I don't think with him there will ever be "100%"... in the kitchen there's nothing for him to get into, but left with free roam, once in a great while something would get destroyed-- it usually was a measure of how much I'd been working lately (i.e. how bored he was). He'd go months without touching anything, then Bam! The fringe on the rug would be eaten.


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## Rua (Jan 2, 2012)

vicky2200 said:


> Yup, seven dogs learned how to behave unsupervised by 6 months of age, even though the only method I was using to train them doesn't work.


I think this is fascinating. I know that the general consensus among many dog owners and trainers is to never discipline outside of "the window" of wrongdoing, but I often think our pets are smarter than we give them credit for. 

If I have been away for a little while, and my pup has had an accident or has done something cheeky, I can usually tell by her demeanour that she knows she's done something wrong. Even if it took place outside "the window". She'll act sheepish and she gives me this funny sidelong glance, among other behavioural changes. I'll say to her, "What were you doing?" in a firm-ish voice as I go around to find what it was she did. And the boisterousness that she would normally have if she hadn't done anything wrong is gone.

Everyone has to find the method that works best for them. To each their own. I for one think there could be a balance to be had in both methods if you have a dog that you are especially tuned into and vice versa.

Case in point:


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Rua said:


> If I have been away for a little while, and my pup has had an accident or has done something cheeky, I can usually tell by her demeanour that she knows she's done something wrong. Even if it took place outside "the window". She'll act sheepish and she gives me this funny sidelong glance, among other behavioural changes.


I read a study recently where the researches went into the kitchen when the dog wasn't looking and scattered trash all over the floor. When the dog was let into the room and saw the trash on the floor, he immediately tucked his head and drooped his ears, tucked his tail under and lowered himself onto his belly. It wasn't that he "knew he'd done wrong," it was because his brain had made the association that "trash on the floor = punishment."


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## KrisMess (Jan 2, 2012)

I have 2 german shepherd puppies that I crate for their safety. When I am home and can watch their every move I let them loose in the room that I am in. When I am doing something they are either crated or leashed and by my side. If I didn't crate I would never know what they were getting into. I think they need boundaries.


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## Rua (Jan 2, 2012)

Emoore said:


> I read a study recently where the researches went into the kitchen when the dog wasn't looking and scattered trash all over the floor. When the dog was let into the room and saw the trash on the floor, he immediately tucked his head and drooped his ears, tucked his tail under and lowered himself onto his belly. It wasn't that he "knew he'd done wrong," it was because his brain had made the association that "trash on the floor = punishment."


Awww, that's sad but interesting. I suppose a dog will react according to however they were treated previously regarding punishment and to what they sense in their owners reaction. I dunno what's made my pup react like she does whenever she's done something "iffy". The most I've done as regards punishment in the moment with her is loudly saying NO (which she often ignores) or putting her in time out for 20 seconds (usually for being too "bitey") because I'm not one for old school punishment. I believe dogs do better with positive reinforcement.

But more than once since I've gotten her, Juno has sheepishly brought me a roll of toilet tissue to clean up her accident if she's had one. I'm not sure where that has come from, and it makes me laugh when she does it.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

I can walk in to a room that's completely clean where she's done nothing wrong, give my dog the evil look or raise my voice a little bit more than usual and her ears will be back and head down just like that dog in the video. 

When you correct hours later, they aren't feeling guilty because they know something is wrong. They're picking up on the emotions that you're projecting to them at the moment and responding.


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## Rua (Jan 2, 2012)

Lucy Dog said:


> I can walk in to a room that's completely clean where she's done nothing wrong, give my dog the evil look or raise my voice a little bit more than usual and her ears will be back and head down just like that dog in the video.
> 
> When you correct hours later, they aren't feeling guilty because they know something is wrong. They're picking up on the emotions that you're projecting to them at the moment and responding.


Ok...but there were two dogs in the video. The first didn't react the way the second one did. Why do you suppose that was? (I'm not being cheeky or trying to start an argument or anything. I'm just curious.)


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## Mayasmom (Jan 4, 2012)

Lucy Dog said:


> I can walk in to a room that's completely clean where she's done nothing wrong, give my dog the evil look or raise my voice a little bit more than usual and her ears will be back and head down just like that dog in the video.
> 
> When you correct hours later, they aren't feeling guilty because they know something is wrong. They're picking up on the emotions that you're projecting to them at the moment and responding.


I completely agree about a dog picking up your emotions & responding accordingly. However, there is a difference when u walk into the house & the dog isnt waiting with a wagging tail on the other side of the door. If she greets with happiness, she hasnt misbehaved. This is prior to her even observing my body language.

Honestly, if u came home to a mess u aren't emotional about it? Do u give them pets too?


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Rua said:


> Ok...but there were two dogs in the video. The first didn't react the way the second one did. Why do you suppose that was? (I'm not being cheeky or trying to start an argument or anything. I'm just curious.)


Who knows what's happened in the past. Maybe this happened before and the owner corrected the dog a different way. Dogs have very good memories, especially with negative situations. Maybe he's associating that bag (or a similar type bag) and the owner with a bad past experience. Maybe some kind of scolding. That's just my guess.



Mayasmom said:


> I completely agree about a dog picking up your emotions & responding accordingly. However, there is a difference when u walk into the house & the dog isnt waiting with a wagging tail on the other side of the door. If she greets with happiness, she hasnt misbehaved. This is prior to her even observing my body language.
> 
> Honestly, if u came home to a mess u aren't emotional about it? Do u give them pets too?


Hypothetically speaking, if I came home to a house that was a mess, I'd probably be too P.O.'d at myself and the situation to give pets and a happy greeting. I'd probably just walk in and be upset with myself for allowing a dog who would make a mess the opportunity to do so.


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## Mayasmom (Jan 4, 2012)

You would blame yourself? How is the dog to learn from its mistakes? If the dog could do no wrong?


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## Rua (Jan 2, 2012)

Lucy Dog said:


> Dogs have very good memories, especially with negative situations. .


Exactly. I don't believe in humanizing animals, but I do think certain animals have a higher level of intelligence than others and that they are capable of recalling when certain behaviours brought certain consequences. Otherwise we wouldn't be able to train them at all.

I don't think you can tell you dog, "Hey that rubbish you pulled out of the bin a couple days ago was really bad of you. Go to your crate!"

But I do think that certain dogs pick up both on your feelings AND the fact that they've done something wrong (or right) if that is the case. Even if it is from something a couple hours ago. I know a lot wouldn't agree with me on that, but that's just my experience.


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## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

Rua said:


> Ok...but there were two dogs in the video. The first didn't react the way the second one did. Why do you suppose that was? (I'm not being cheeky or trying to start an argument or anything. I'm just curious.)


His tone of voice is different with each dog.... there is no "suspicion" when talking to the golden, in fact he's talking in a sweet almost baby like voice to it, but his voice oozes with sounds of disappointment when he turns to the lab.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Scarlettsmom said:


> One word comes to mind: DESTRUCTION!


YES!! Our 5 year old Boxer will still get it into her head to destroy stuff for kicks.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Mayasmom said:


> You would blame yourself? How is the dog to learn from its mistakes? If the dog could do no wrong?


You put the dog in situations where they're set up for success. If they do wrong, correct at that exact moment or don't correct at all.

If the dog isn't ready to be alone and unsupervised, it's the owners fault. The owner was the one who made the decision to allow the dog freedom.


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

CarrieJ said:


> I also live in an area of CA where thank the lord there still is a fairgrounds (barely) and many animal shelters, however I have a feeling that when the next 7.0 earthquake hits again that said shelters will be overwhelmed. God forbid that my dogs get loose cause I have fallen fences or collasped walls and get put in a crate due to lack of shelter space. I want the crate to be a refuge, a save haven, in tramautic times.


I am in CA too and never though of this, but it is even more reason to help the dogs see their crate as a safe haven.

Benny and Jake both have very good house manners,although we keep temptation low by keeping food over the counters, slippers and other highly chewable items away. They are not crated when we are home, although Benny will go into his crate on his own sometimes.

We do crate them when we go out, because even though they have always gotten along very well they are still animals and I don't want to take a chance of them getting into a fight over a toy or a spot . 

We also did not get our dogs to protect my home when I am away. I would be more concerned that if they were uncrated and someone broke in, that they would either be injured by the robber or let out and hit in the street.


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## tsteves (Jun 7, 2011)

Kona is only crated when we are not home. She is housebroken and she usually doesn't chew on things she is not supposed to but you never know what they will get into when not supervised, and we don't want to find out. It's a safety thing. Also, i'm not sure but I would think if there was a break in when we were out she would be more likely to survive it if she was in her crate as opposed to being free to jump up on or attack those that might enter.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> You put the dog in situations where they're set up for success. If they do wrong, correct at that exact moment or don't correct at all.
> 
> If the dog isn't ready to be alone and unsupervised, it's the owners fault. The owner was the one who made the decision to allow the dog freedom.


Beautifully put. :thumbup:

I have an intact male and intact female so they will never be left alone with each other. My rescue can get aggressive in a heartbeat (she has injured my other dogs before). One loves to chew on wood (especially my antique chairs). Another enjoys opening doors and taking a stroll through the house finding ways to get into trouble. Any door that I leave out of will have claw marks as the dogs try to come after me as I leave. Need I say more? I will always crate when I'm gone. Too many risks with multiple intact dogs and same sex dogs around to not crate.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

Dante had run of the house at 3 years old (probably could have had it before) I think Kaos will have it when she's 30 :rofl:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Lots of reasons to crate other than housebreaking when you are not there:
bitch in heat,
dog with an injury
dog-dog or bitch-bitch aggression possibility
to protect the dog from chewing or eating something they should not
to keep dog away from windows which might reduce barking/aggressing toward whatever might be outside
I am sure there are others, but can't think now.


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

I think the OP was defining housebroken as a dog that is potty trained, non-destructive, spayed/neutered and fine around her other dogs when left alone. If that is the case, like the OP, I do not see any reason to continue to crate a dog.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

LifeofRiley said:


> I think the OP was defining housebroken as a dog that is potty trained, non-destructive, spayed/neutered and fine around her other dogs when left alone. If that is the case, like the OP, I do not see any reason to continue to crate a dog.


I agree with that. Kaos is housebroken/non destructive and allowed free roam always. Sherman is crated when we leave. He is housebroken, still very curious with household items...plus I wouldn't leave the 2 of them out together in case there was a dirty look or some other problem and I wasn't here to shut it down. They're both big boys with big teeth, so that would be no good.


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## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

Debbieg said:


> ...
> We do crate them when we go out, because even though they have always gotten along very well *they are still animals and I don't want to take a chance of them getting into a fight over a toy or a spot* .
> 
> We also did not get our dogs to protect my home when I am away. *I would be more concerned that if they were uncrated and someone broke in, that they would either be injured by the robber or let out and hit in the street*.


Absolutely, I will admit to taking Alice to the bank with me to do a withdrawl at the ATM. Nothing like the visual aide of a GSD to make people respect your space.
Especially one that stares at people.
I have a little JRT mix that I inherited; and she's awful. I think that Alice will do the counter surfing and the JRT mix will beat her up and steal the loot.
I don't worry about the spots or the toys, but high value stuff. I give them Primal Raw bones and they eat them in their crates. They eat regular dog food side by side with no bowl crossing but I do supervise the little one as she eats fast and tries to weasel in. And, they are both females so there is the same gender competition thing going on.

Usually they get crated if the surfing gets bad (seems to be if Alice is feeling her Pheno more strongly).

Another good point. If someone is brave enough to ignore territorially aggressive barking, chances are that they will harm your pet.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Good_Karma said:


> I keep my dogs crated when we are not home so I can ensure the safety of my cats. And I did not get my dogs to protect my stuff from a robber.


This is why Zefra is crated.

Stark has free roam of the house (except one room which is gated for the cats) but Zeffie is crated. She loves on the cats just a little too roughly and is super intense with them still. Also, she gets into things.. lol.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

vicky2200 said:


> Then why did every dog I've ever had learn to alone by using this method?


It is also possible that this method eventually leaves a negative association with the article itself. Kind of like the old "tie a dead chicken around the dogs neck" to teach them not to chase birds. It doesn't teach the dog not to chase birds, it just makes them afraid to be around chickens. Many people swear by it, of course, because to them it works. I guess it does in it's own way - you can't chase a chicken if you are afraid to even go around them. 

If scolded enough with a certain object, the dog can learn to be afraid of having that object close to them. IE you are yelling at your dog with a chewed shoe in your hand, the dog associates the correction with being close to the shoe. So the dog learns to not be close to shoes. He hasn't learned not to CHEW them per se, but the result is the same.


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## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

Dainerra said:


> It is also possible that this method eventually leaves a negative association with the article itself. Kind of like the old "tie a dead chicken around the dogs neck" to teach them not to chase birds. It doesn't teach the dog not to chase birds, it just makes them afraid to be around chickens. Many people swear by it, of course, because to them it works. I guess it does in it's own way - you can't chase a chicken if you are afraid to even go around them.
> 
> If scolded enough with a certain object, the dog can learn to be afraid of having that object close to them. IE you are yelling at your dog with a chewed shoe in your hand, the dog associates the correction with being close to the shoe. So the dog learns to not be close to shoes. He hasn't learned not to CHEW them per se, but the result is the same.


:thumbup: Couldn't have explained it better. 
My dad still brags about how he taught our Dalmatian not to chase the cats when I was younger. He took one of the cats, sat it on the dogs back and made the dog walk around with it on his back. After a few times of that, the dog would run away from the cats everytime they came near him. But I guess it cured him from chasing cats.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

oh the "tie the chicken around the neck and leave it there until it rots" advice is given every DAY practically on a poultry forum that I am on.


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

I agree with whoever said it helps to be content in the crate in case of medical emergencies, we've all had sick or injured dogs and healing is easier if they are calm, at the vets they are already nervous but the crate is a safe place to mine, so they will relax and rest. At home I keep crates up, doors open and they often go in to sleep, I occasionally and randomly decide to shut a door and leave them inside, they are fine. Any time I need them there they are comfortable, and we never know when we will need to do this, It was after Katrina when I saw and heard of all the animals I started reinforcing this..I used to also believe crates were only for house training, and once upon a time I also didn't have all animals chipped, even the indoor cats. Better safe than sorry, and you can teach an old dog like me new tricks...


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## KentuckyGSDLover (Nov 17, 2011)

Mayasmom said:


> So a dog that requires crating after being housebroken is only done so due to their destructive tendecies so its only for their own safety? And dogs with "issues", ie. doesnt respect/accept its position within the pack & will challenge other pack members due to lack of leadership?


I think the crate is incorporated into "pack leadership." It's like sending a teenager to their room to give them a sort of time-out and calm. I'll tell y'all how wonderful, obedient and focused my older dog Buddy is, but the reason I had a huge crate when I brought Rey home was because when Buddy was about a year old, he unstuffed things and when it became overwhelming, the crate kept us sane and him a place to go to calm. Until he matured into understanding and wanted to be with us more than to unstuff things, it was his safe place from trouble. After Buddy was about 2 years old, we just left the crate door open and he'd crawl in there at night to sleep without us even telling him to. When he started sleeping next to the bed and I got tired of a huge crate in my bedroom for a dog that no longer needed any restraint, it got replaced with a huge dog pillow beside the bed. However, he will still get into a crate if I ask him to.

Rey is housebroke, but needs a lot of structure right now. She gets rewarded for going into her crate when she follows the command, "get in your crate," which turns also into a training exercise. When she stresses, she actually wants to be in her crate. But the longer I have her, the more she wants out of that crate to join her "pack" and is starting to think about what she does, the consequences, and whether she wants to be in her "safe place" or out in the house with us where she follows my rules. This is correlating choices in behavior. She's choosing more and more to behave in a manner that doesn't afford a "safe place" to calm from getting herself in trouble. I'm a huge fan of crate training.


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## iBaman (Oct 25, 2011)

KentuckyGSDLover said:


> Rey is housebroke, but needs a lot of structure right now. She gets rewarded for going into her crate when she follows the command, "get in your crate," which turns also into a training exercise. When she stresses, she actually wants to be in her crate. But the longer I have her, the more she wants out of that crate to join her "pack" and is *starting to think about what she does,* the consequences, and whether she wants to be in her "safe place" or out in the house with us where she follows my rules. This is correlating choices in behavior. She's choosing more and more to behave in a manner that doesn't afford a "safe place" to calm from getting herself in trouble. I'm a huge fan of crate training.



I love watching the wheels turn in their heads xD

I crate, because if I didn't, Sheldon would eat, destroy and make himself sick. So, for now, we crate him while we're gone.


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