# Dont know how we got food aggression



## Pozusaurus.rex (Dec 9, 2020)

Hello everyone,

I have a 8 mo german shepherd. I got him when he was a puppy and ever since I almost always hand fed him by doing commands/play. Everyone in awhile ill have to leave the food bowl in his crate for him. Recently I went to hand feed him and he snarled at me...not sure what I did but I didn't give him the food kept eye contact and took a small step back. He spun sneezed and sat down and waited for his food. I figure I try again and I made the mistake of trying to pet him and me got me good. He's been a great dog, never chewed on anything didn't break stuff. He's high energy and needs some more control. I'm sure I'm doing something to make him feel like I'm gonna take his food?

Not sure how to correct this behavior. I think he maybe resource guarding. He loves snagging tissue paper so I usually have to take it out of his mouth. Is this where it's stemming from? Please help.



Thank you for all the suggestions! Here's a pic of the handsome boy!


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Why are you playing with his food? You are frustrating him. We sometimes recommend using their food for training, but once they are over 3-4 months old, they should be given their food uninterrupted. I would put the food down in a bowl, move away and leave him alone while eating. You created the aggression, the dog did not,


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Put the food in his bowl and leave him in peace.You're making him anxious by always messing with his meals.When he has a tissue or something he shouldn't, call him to you and trade him for something better.


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## herojig (Apr 3, 2013)

dogma13 said:


> Put the food in his bowl and leave him in peace.You're making him anxious by always messing with his meals.When he has a tissue or something he shouldn't, call him to you and trade him for something better.


i love this answer. When I first got Bernie, a 4-year old rescue, he would not eat. I could not figure it out, a GoldenSaint that ignored a food bowl? Even when my GSD would come over and start stealing, he ignored him. My first though was that this dog had a medical problem. But it was lockdown, what to do? Then I tried hand-feeding him. He gobbled the food from my hand, could not get enough. I realized his last owner must have hand-fed him. The didis here (maids) always do that... they feed the dogs like they are children who can't feed themselves. Anyway, after a week of that harrowing experience (ever have ur hands in a Saint's mouth when they are chewing?), I weened him into eating on his own, and he's been fine ever since. Moral of this story? Idk... best to keep ur hands _*away*_ from a dogs food?


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Maybe once a week he gets food in a bowl unattended?
So you have been hand feeding him?


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Put the bowl down and walk away. You can walk by and drop high value items in the bowl so your dog understands good things happen when you come near but, under no circumstance stop and stick hands anywhere near the bowl. Often times resource guarding dogs are fine while hand feeding as the food belongs to you. Once you put the bowl down, that changes. If you have young kids or other dogs, put your dog in a crate or room with shut door until he is finished eating. Make it a practice to trade for toys or items he shouldn’t have as resource guarding often morphs into other aspects of the dogs life such as toys, furniture, beds, you etc.
If you have a GOOD trainer in your area, it wouldn’t hurt to bring them in for an assessment and plan moving forward.


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## Rabidwolfie (Apr 9, 2021)

I don't get this "Never interrupt feeding" thing. I stuck my hand in the bowl while my pup was eating while he was a baby (only rarely hand fed him) so he knew it should be tolerated. Even now I can stick my hand in his bowl no issues, and if I wanted I could take kibble right from his mouth with very little fight. Not that I do this but I've taught him that it's acceptable for me to take anything from him at any time if I give the command.

With his mother and two older sisters it's the same. Either my father or I can stick our hand in the bowls while they eat, even mess with the kibble, and they just eat around us. When they get communal treats, they can all stick their heads together in whatever dish they're being fed from (usually a cookie sheet) and there never any growling or fighting. Just a lot of shoving.

Personally, I think it's good to occasionally (once every few months at the most) remind them WHERE the kibble comes from. I've only had food aggression with one dog while doing this (technically she was a wolf mix) and I took away her bowl and only allowed her a few bites at a time until she realized that aggression only made her hungry. When she was polite, she got fed all of her food at once.

Then again, I'm used to rescues who are already adults. This is my first puppy, but my father raised my puppy's mother AND sisters the same way. Aggression is not allowed. If you act up, you get put in time out or have things taken away until you can behave.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

Not all dogs have food/resource aggression, so it doesn't matter if you stick your hand in their bowl. If your dog does, it can be a recipe for a bite. Sure, eventually it can be extinguished to a certain extent, but you don't immediately get there.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Rabidwolfie said:


> I don't get this "Never interrupt feeding" thing. I stuck my hand in the bowl while my pup was eating while he was a baby (only rarely hand fed him) so he knew it should be tolerated. Even now I can stick my hand in his bowl no issues, and if I wanted I could take kibble right from his mouth with very little fight. Not that I do this but I've taught him that it's acceptable for me to take anything from him at any time if I give the command.
> 
> With his mother and two older sisters it's the same. Either my father or I can stick our hand in the bowls while they eat, even mess with the kibble, and they just eat around us. When they get communal treats, they can all stick their heads together in whatever dish they're being fed from (usually a cookie sheet) and there never any growling or fighting. Just a lot of shoving.
> 
> ...


I'm the same but it's one of those issues that people disagree about or have different experiences with. I have always been able to add or remove food from their bowl mid-eating, pick the bowl up to move it, feed them a few feet apart (I do back to back to be fair to them) etc. When they get a Milkbone or real bone, they are handed it either side of me.

I also pick them partially up regularly either for straight messing around or affection which others have vehemently disagreed with and told me I must never have had a different kind of dog. 

Aggression is not tolerated but honestly, has never had to be. One thing I have never had is same sex aggression which I understand can be much more difficult to deal with.

Never had any growling


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Rabidwolfie said:


> I don't get this "Never interrupt feeding" thing. I stuck my hand in the bowl while my pup was eating while he was a baby (only rarely hand fed him) so he knew it should be tolerated. Even now I can stick my hand in his bowl no issues, and if I wanted I could take kibble right from his mouth with very little fight. Not that I do this but I've taught him that it's acceptable for me to take anything from him at any time if I give the command.
> 
> With his mother and two older sisters it's the same. Either my father or I can stick our hand in the bowls while they eat, even mess with the kibble, and they just eat around us. When they get communal treats, they can all stick their heads together in whatever dish they're being fed from (usually a cookie sheet) and there never any growling or fighting. Just a lot of shoving.
> 
> ...


I would say you haven’t owned a resource guarding dog yet which is why your approach has not created any problems. For dogs who are genetically inclined, your approach will bring it to the surface ten fold.


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## Rabidwolfie (Apr 9, 2021)

Saphire said:


> I would say you haven’t owned a resource guarding dog yet which is why your approach has not created any problems. For dogs who are genetically inclined, your approach will bring it to the surface ten fold.


So far only the one female. I had two other males at the time and they never growled at me, just each other. It took several weeks, admittedly, but she learned not to growl at me either. If I put my hand near her bowl at any point in time and she showed the slightest bit of aggression (lip lift, vocal warning, snip) I snatched the food away and started over. Even made her sit and wait or earn her food a few bites at a time. 

Not claiming to be an expert trainer or anything, I simply don't tolerate aggression. Correcting bad behavior is NEVER an instant fix, but it CAN be done in most cases. Why would anyone own a big, powerful animal they can't trust?


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Here’s the thing, if you have a young pup who starts to guard their food (genetics), by taking the food away, you are confirming you can’t be trusted because you are doing exactly what the dog thinks you are going to do. So, for the dog that is wired this way, it’s not the best approach. What could end up happening is, your dog nails you the second you get close because you’ve shown the dog what you are about to do.
Like stated above, not all dogs are resource guarders. With food, I don’t really care, I feed once a day and feel a dog should have a stress free time during meals. I’m more concerned about toys, furniture or guarding owners, that’s a little bit tricky.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

I've always heard hand feeding a dog was the way to FIX food aggression! 

Now I'm confused!

Have never had a dog that resource guarded, so have never dealt with this.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Sunsilver said:


> I've always heard hand feeding a dog was the way to FIX food aggression!
> 
> Now I'm confused!
> 
> Have never had a dog that resource guarded, so have never dealt with this.


The way the post is worded makes me think the OP was reaching into the bowl to hand feed. I could be wrong.
I look at it this way, I’d like to think humans are smarter than dogs with thought process and reasoning. If I’m sitting at the table eating my dinner and someone comes along and starts eating off my plate, I’m stabbing them with my fork.


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## Rabidwolfie (Apr 9, 2021)

If your dog is still snipping after reinforcement training, that feels like a lack of respect for you as an authority AND food supplier. It may be a natural instinct, but domestic animals have a LOT of natural instincts that we teach them not to obey. I don't see this as any different, genetically inclined or not.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Saphire said:


> If I’m sitting at the table eating my dinner and someone comes along and starts eating off my plate, I’m stabbing them with my fork.


Saphire, me too! 😁


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Sunsilver said:


> I've always heard hand feeding a dog was the way to FIX food aggression!
> 
> Now I'm confused!
> 
> Have never had a dog that resource guarded, so have never dealt with this.


Intermittent hand feeding as a reward is alright but the method used here is guaranteed to cause stress in a dog. Food can be soothing If used properly. My rescued puppy was afraid of loud machinery, so I fed her treats by hand while we watched large lawnmowers and trash trucks go by. It kept her calm. Her main meals were always given to her away from the household in a bowl, either in her crate or in a quiet spot in the kitchen. Using food as a reward is different from playing with a dog’s food. The owner must be tuned in to the dog to see if it’s soothing or producing anxiety. That is the problem with internet advice. Methods must be chosen and used for the dog, not always used for all dogs.


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## Catrinka (Aug 6, 2020)

I've always started puppies with them getting used to accepting my hand near or in their bowls. I'll occasionally toss in a couple chunks of meat or something yummy on top of their food while they're eating so that they associate my hand in or near their bowl as a good thing offering up yummy extras. I've never ended up with a food guarder in all the dogs we've had, although maybe it has nothing to do with this and I've just been lucky.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Rabidwolfie said:


> If your dog is still snipping after reinforcement training, that feels like a lack of respect for you as an authority AND food supplier. It may be a natural instinct, but domestic animals have a LOT of natural instincts that we teach them not to obey. I don't see this as any different, genetically inclined or not.


What we're saying is if something causes your dog stress and anxiety the best course of action is not to cause more stress and anxiety.By looking at the situation from the dog's perspective he can be convinced that his anxiety is unfounded and it disappears.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Handfeeding a pup who is able to self feed is the craziest thing I have heard regarding feeding issues. What has worked for me and all the (foster)dogs I have had over 40 years, is the following: once you have established yourself as the one in charge and have a good bond, feed the dog while he is in a sit. Give permission to eat. Halfway its meal, call his name and throw something better tasting in his bowl, then walk away. I always make sure to call their name first so they know where I am. Distance of adding the food is depending on the severity of the issue. I still do this once in a while as a reminder. I once worked with a Corgi who had bitten all five family members pretty bad in various situations. One was the food guarding. They demonstrated their feeding routine by putting his food in the farthest corner of a bathroom, then open the door so he could eat. He guarded his bowl fiercely from a distance from me when I only stood in the doorway, about 12 feet away from him. I started throwing chicken towards him and you saw him think and change his mind. I was able in that one session to get to 3 ft from his bowl without him guarding. They did their home work and after two weeks no more issues. But they also worked on all other areas in his life and allowed him to herd the pigs into the barn in the evening. It was one of my best success stories. There is no magic wand like many expect but it takes effort, time and consistency.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

I don’t have a problem with the concept of hand feeding. 
At nearly two, my boy still gets nearly half his food through work. I don’t take it from his bowl but a pouch on my waist. (I agree that the OP wasn’t exactly clear where the hand fed food was coming from). But I also give him quiet time with his bowl of food twice a day. 

I have used the trick of adding yummy stuff to his bowl or bone as I walk by. Also, I always trade up if the rare occurrence comes by that I have to take something of very high value away from him.


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## Lexie’s mom (Oct 27, 2019)

I have a weird dog with no aggression that only makes some growling sounds when she has a big stuffy in her mouth and wants someone to play with her, chase her. Her food, she doesn’t care, you can take it any time away from her. When she has a marrow bone in her mouth and I say in a funny low voice: “Give me your bone!” She’ll actually bring it to me and put it on my lap...
Nevertheless I don’t bother her while she is eating. When I put her food on her plate, she actually uses it as her chance to lick my face.
But I find hand feeding is very handy with senior and or sick dogs.


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## Pozusaurus.rex (Dec 9, 2020)

LuvShepherds said:


> Why are you playing with his food? You are frustrating him. We sometimes recommend using their food for training, but once they are over 3-4 months old, they should be given their food uninterrupted. I would put the food down in a bowl, move away and leave him alone while eating. You created the aggression, the dog did not,


Thank you for the suggestion. I'll try it out. I always hand fed because I thought it would help create a bond. But yeah now I feel like he just wants his food and I'm playing with it


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Saphire said:


> Here’s the thing, if you have a young pup who starts to guard their food (genetics), by taking the food away, you are confirming you can’t be trusted because you are doing exactly what the dog thinks you are going to do. So, for the dog that is wired this way, it’s not the best approach. What could end up happening is, your dog nails you the second you get close because you’ve shown the dog what you are about to do.
> Like stated above, not all dogs are resource guarders. With food, I don’t really care, I feed once a day and feel a dog should have a stress free time during meals. I’m more concerned about toys, furniture or guarding owners, that’s a little bit tricky.


I'm confused too.
Why do people correct toy, furniture or owner guarding but not food then. 
Is food genetic but the others aren't?
Also is it a chicken and egg thing; I don't allow resource guarding, therefore I must not have had a dog "genetically" disposed to it, or the dog never displayed that tendency since we handled their food/toys etc from day one an didn't put up with guarding?


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## Pozusaurus.rex (Dec 9, 2020)

Saphire said:


> I would say you haven’t owned a resource guarding dog yet which is why your approach has not created any problems. For dogs who are genetically inclined, your approach will bring it to the surface ten fold.





Saphire said:


> Here’s the thing, if you have a young pup who starts to guard their food (genetics), by taking the food away, you are confirming you can’t be trusted because you are doing exactly what the dog thinks you are going to do. So, for the dog that is wired this way, it’s not the best approach. What could end up happening is, your dog nails you the second you get close because you’ve shown the dog what you are about to do.
> Like stated above, not all dogs are resource guarders. With food, I don’t really care, I feed once a day and feel a dog should have a stress free time during meals. I’m more concerned about toys, furniture or guarding owners, that’s a little bit tricky.


Yeah someone else has told me to just leave him alone and


Sunsilver said:


> I've always heard hand feeding a dog was the way to FIX food aggression!
> 
> Now I'm confused!
> 
> Have never had a dog that resource guarded, so have never dealt with this.


 same boat. When I started reading up on how to fix I was just like uhhhh I do this normally. I'm not making him work kibble my kibble. After a few handfuls we are through one out of two meals.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Saphire said:


> The way the post is worded makes me think the OP was reaching into the bowl to hand feed. I could be wrong.
> I look at it this way, I’d like to think humans are smarter than dogs with thought process and reasoning. If I’m sitting at the table eating my dinner and someone comes along and starts eating off my plate, I’m stabbing them with my fork.


What if you're in a "family style restaurant" where food is passed? Do you refuse?
What if you hand your child a sandwich but then reach because you had forgot to cut it in half? Does he bite you?


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## Pozusaurus.rex (Dec 9, 2020)

Rabidwolfie said:


> If your dog is still snipping after reinforcement training, that feels like a lack of respect for you as an authority AND food supplier. It may be a natural instinct, but domestic animals have a LOT of natural instincts that we teach them not to obey. I don't see this as any different, genetically inclined or not.


This might be....


Sunflowers said:


> Maybe once a week he gets food in a bowl unattended?
> So you have been hand feeding him?


Yeah he gets two meals a day. I normally hand feed him both meals. And there's days where I'm late or in a rush so I leave the bowl in his kennel for him.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

WNGD said:


> I'm confused too.
> Why do people correct toy, furniture or owner guarding but not food then.
> Is food genetic but the others aren't?
> Also is it a chicken and egg thing; I don't allow resource guarding, therefore I must not have had a dog "genetically" disposed to it, or the dog never displayed that tendency since we handled their food/toys etc from day one an didn't put up with guarding?


i don’t care about food because I leave him alone for 1 minute a day while he eats, just a personal choice. The other areas have a bigger impact on daily life.


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## Pozusaurus.rex (Dec 9, 2020)

Thank you for the replies everyone. I'll give it all a shot and see how it goes. When I hand fed my dog I gave him big handfuls. We're really doing like maybe 5 or so commands and it's usually sit, down, stay, come and a break command for each reward.


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## Pozusaurus.rex (Dec 9, 2020)

Saphire said:


> The way the post is worded makes me think the OP was reaching into the bowl to hand feed. I could be wrong.
> I look at it this way, I’d like to think humans are smarter than dogs with thought process and reasoning. If I’m sitting at the table eating my dinner and someone comes along and starts eating off my plate, I’m stabbing them with my fork.


Hello saphire. My bad on wording. When I hand feed I put his amount of food in his feeding bowl and take handfuls to give him after a sit command then break. I noticed a lot of people saying I'm messing with him. It could be. We get through the bowl pretty fast. Im not giving him kibble by kibble. I thought I was training him to work for his food a little and know that it's coming from me. I'm also sometimes late so I have to run out quickly and I will have him sit in his kennel and give him his food and let him eat unattended. Maybe he's telling me let's keep doing it the kennel way. I totally get the respect on food, I've never taken his food away from him before. Was just worried that this becomes a bigger problem.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Get yourself a treat apron if you want to do that. Don’t use the bowl.


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## Pozusaurus.rex (Dec 9, 2020)

Galathiel said:


> Not all dogs have food/resource aggression, so it doesn't matter if you stick your hand in their bowl. If your dog does, it can be a recipe for a bite. Sure, eventually it can be extinguished to a certain extent, but you don't immediately get there.


Sorry I'm not setting his food down and reaching in his bowl. I have a feeding bowl that I put his food in and I'll grab handfuls while I'm holding it to hand feed him after a command. Other days when I'm running out the door I'll leave his food bowl I'm his kennel and he eats in peace.


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## Pozusaurus.rex (Dec 9, 2020)

Sunflowers said:


> Get yourself a treat apron if you want to do that. Don’t use the bowl.


Interesting okay. Are we dissasociating the bowl and food?


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Well, he knows it is the same bowl you put down, and now you aren’t. 
These are smart dogs. Of course that would frustrate him.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Use the apron, give him something else when you train, and keep the sessions short.
Or wear it when you go out.
Training and meals are separate here. I want him to trust me.


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## Pozusaurus.rex (Dec 9, 2020)

CeraDean said:


> I don’t have a problem with the concept of hand feeding.
> At nearly two, my boy still gets nearly half his food through work. I don’t take it from his bowl but a pouch on my waist. (I agree that the OP wasn’t exactly clear where the hand fed food was coming from). But I also give him quiet time with his bowl of food twice a day.
> 
> I have used the trick of adding yummy stuff to his bowl or bone as I walk by. Also, I always trade up if the rare occurrence comes by that I have to take something of very high value away from him.


Looks like I been making the mistake of holding his food bowl with his food and reaching into it to feed. I will find another way to bold the food.


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## Pozusaurus.rex (Dec 9, 2020)

Sunflowers said:


> Well, he knows it is the same bowl you put down, and now you aren’t.
> These are smart dogs. Of course that would frustrate him.


I'm so dumb. Yeah freaking too smart. I'll give it a shot


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Pozusaurus.rex said:


> Thank you for the replies everyone. I'll give it all a shot and see how it goes. When I hand fed my dog I gave him big handfuls. We're really doing like maybe 5 or so commands and it's usually sit, down, stay, come and a break command for each reward.


Awful way to enjoy a meal. A meal should be one of the highlights of the day for us and for them. Can you imagine how you would feel to fill your stomach like that? I would have been surprised if he hadn't gotten food aggressive. I personally experienced something like that when a waiter tried to take my plate before I had completely finished my meal. That was super annoying and I told him that and mentioned it to the manager. Unfortunately your dog cannot complain like that, so he does what he can and that is to growl and if you continue he will bite someday.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Pozusaurus.rex said:


> **** it I'm so dumb. Yeah freaking too smart. I'll give it a shot


You aren’t dumb, you are learning. This example is one reason I don’t like treat training. To train with treats, give one small piece as an instant reward for following a command. Once your dog sits for a treat, start weaning off treats. Give a treat with praise, then the next time give praise but no treat. Eventually give a treat once every three times, then once every fours times, and so on. After a while, your dog should sit for the word and not for a reward. 

I use treats for sit and down. I don’t use them to teach anything else or for bonding. Oh, and for the crate. I still give a treat if they go in nicely when I have treats avaliable,


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I use treats to teach something new but wean it off asap. If you continue food rewarding for the same behavior its' like rewarding a highschooler for doing his first grade math correctly.


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## Pozusaurus.rex (Dec 9, 2020)

LuvShepherds said:


> Intermittent hand feeding as a reward is alright but the method used here is guaranteed to cause stress in a dog. Food can be soothing If used properly. My rescued puppy was afraid of loud machinery, so I fed her treats by hand while we watched large lawnmowers and trash trucks go by. It kept her calm. Her main meals were always given to her away from the household in a bowl, either in her crate or in a quiet spot in the kitchen. Using food as a reward is different from playing with a dog’s food. The owner must be tuned in to the dog to see if it’s soothing or producing anxiety. That is the problem with internet advice. Methods must be chosen and used for the dog, not always used for all dogs.


It always seemed positive. Tail wagging and mouth open with tongue out.


wolfy dog said:


> Awful way to enjoy a meal. A meal should be one of the highlights of the day for us and for them. Can you imagine how you would feel to fill your stomach like that? I would have been surprised if he hadn't gotten food aggressive. I personally experienced something like that when a waiter tried to take my plate before I had completely finished my meal. That was super annoying and I told him that and mentioned it to the manager. Unfortunately your dog cannot complain like that, so he does what he can and that is to growl and if you continue he will bite someday.


Yeah may of been the wrong thing to do. I totally get it. Usually he's excited to go work. And thought I was a good binding thing.


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## Pozusaurus.rex (Dec 9, 2020)

wolfy dog said:


> I use treats to teach something new but wean it off asap. If you continue food rewarding for the same behavior its' like rewarding a highschooler for doing his first grade math correctly.


Thank you I'll start trying that.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

I just want to applaud the OP for reading the posts and not getting upset.
I can’t tell you how many mistakes I made with my dog, it’s a learning process.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Just some thoughts. I make meal times a social thing. Right from day one, dish in my lap, periodic yummies added, lots of hand feeding. I don't, ever, make my dogs work for meals, take their food away or in any way impair the mealtime. I would be choked if I worked all day and then someone made me sing for my supper. I would be seriously annoyed if someone took my food away while I was eating. 
All that said, if I had a dog with food aggression I would put dish in crate and let pup eat in there, door closed. 
We all make mistakes, the human brain is not designed to learn as quickly or efficiently from success. Move forward, don't look back.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Pozusaurus.rex said:


> It always seemed positive. Tail wagging and mouth open with tongue out.


At some point it went from being fun to being stressful. Dogs that are hungry want food. That is why it’s best to use intermittent rewards and eventually stop the rewards. Otherwise they will only behave for food. He’s telling you now that he doesn’t want to be hand fed. Our dogs have limited ways of communicating with us.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Saphire said:


> i don’t care about food because I leave him alone for 1 minute a day while he eats, just a personal choice. The other areas have a bigger impact on daily life.


I get that. 
I would just not ignore genetic food guarding the same as genetic couch, toy or me guarding.

So when people say "food guarding is genetic, don't bother him" I guess it's a choice to not correct food guarding but correct a couch. That's the point, I won't excuse either and it doesn't stress my dog whatsoever. 

That's also why I asked do they not resource guard because they're not "resource guarders" or do they not resource guard because I set up very clear early boundaries against it?

I gotta get me a resource guarder and a chaotic biter next time and test my theories


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

WNGD said:


> I get that.
> I would just not ignore genetic food guarding the same as genetic couch, toy or me guarding.
> 
> So when people say "food guarding is genetic, don't bother him" I guess it's a choice to not correct food guarding but correct a couch. That's the point, I won't excuse either and it doesn't stress my dog whatsoever.
> ...


I’d say you’ve not yet had a genetic resource guarder. There are many ways to manage it to a safe place, but I’d not trust a dog that “used” to guard their food if young kids are around and might bother the dog when eating. But, guarding other things where you can’t remove the people from is different for me, but that’s just me.
When Carmen and I had a conversation about food guarding, her response was (not word for word as years ago),resource guarding is a survival tool that is strong in some dogs and not others. She is a firm believer of dogs being left alone while they eat, should be a stress free time.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Saphire said:


> I just want to applaud the OP for reading the posts and not getting upset.
> I can’t tell you how many mistakes I made with my dog, it’s a learning process.


Yes, we all started out as newbies. Keep us posted.


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## Bramble (Oct 23, 2011)

Find an experienced trainer to asses your dog's behavior. Be careful about putting into practice advice from people who have never seen or interacted with your dog, especially when dealing with something like this. I would also recommend a full medical work up by your Vet. Sudden behavior change can be a symptom of a medical issue.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Rabidwolfie said:


> I don't get this "Never interrupt feeding" thing. I stuck my hand in the bowl while my pup was eating while he was a baby (only rarely hand fed him) so he knew it should be tolerated. Even now I can stick my hand in his bowl no issues, and if I wanted I could take kibble right from his mouth with very little fight. Not that I do this but I've taught him that it's acceptable for me to take anything from him at any time if I give the command.
> 
> With his mother and two older sisters it's the same. Either my father or I can stick our hand in the bowls while they eat, even mess with the kibble, and they just eat around us. When they get communal treats, they can all stick their heads together in whatever dish they're being fed from (usually a cookie sheet) and there never any growling or fighting. Just a lot of shoving.
> 
> ...


I’m sure I could play in my lab’s food bowl and he would never get angry either. But why?
If the dog was not going to do it they still won’t even if you never touch their food until one random day out of the blue.

messing with food does nothing but stress the dog out in my opinion.

I have once taken a bowl from my lab in his 3 year life because I accidentally put down a bowl for him that was for my old dog and had tons of medicine in it that he really could not have.

he sweetly backed off when I said “oh no! Don’t eat that” and let me take it back.

messing with their food is totally pointless in my opinion and often backfires.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Dumb people are the ones who do something bad, realize it, then keep doing it expecting different results, or those who come here and ask questions and then don’t follow advice, but rather become defensive and find 1 million excuses for the actions that led them to posting here in the first place!
I don’t know a single person who didn’t make one mistake or another with their dog, and anyone who says they never did is lying.
That’s why this forum exists, to exchange ideas and experiences and learn from others and, yes, from their mistakes.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I’m sure I could play in my lab’s food bowl and he would never get angry either. But why?
> If the dog was not going to do it they still won’t even if you never touch their food until one random day out of the blue.
> 
> messing with food does nothing but stress the dog out in my opinion.
> ...



I'd say you just showed exactly why you, not mess with, but teach your dog that there's no big deal if you need to borrow their bowl now and again, a genetic guarder or not. They could be into meds that aren't theirs, poison or nay other reason I need the bowl back. If the dog trusts you, there's zero stress imo. But you're right, I may not have had the pleasure of owning a resource guarder.

Of course I might have .....


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I’m also in the camp of letting my dogs eat in peace and to have unrestricted access to water. They have a designated place in the kitchen, and usually I am there too, fixing my own breakfast or dinner. The only thing I ask for is to sit on their bed and wait for me to prepare the bowl, and that’s it. No working for food, no starving before training, no hunting for dinner spread in the backyard grass. 

Hand feeding has a very bitter sweet meaning for me. I hand fed my aged dog during his last days when he didn’t have any appetite and became so weak and had trouble getting up. I was just sitting with him and giving him food and telling him how much I loved him, and he was eating it to make me happy....

A healthy dog and human have to eat their food by themselves in our house. I also don’t have a problem taking stuff from them if needed. Respect has to go both ways.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

WNGD said:


> I'd say you just showed exactly why you, not mess with, but teach your dog that there's no big deal if you need to borrow their bowl now and again, a genetic guarder or not. They could be into meds that aren't theirs, poison or nay other reason I need the bowl back. If the dog trusts you, there's zero stress imo. But you're right, I may not have had the pleasure of owning a resource guarder.
> 
> Of course I might have .....


But that was my whole point, I DIDN'T teach him that it's no big deal to have me take his bowl back from him. It's happened once in his life. And yes, it was no big deal. Thank god he isn't the kind of lab that's inhaled half of it before you even put it all the way down. My dogs trust me BECAUSE I don't mess with them while they eat. Heck if he expected me to mess with him he probably would inhale his food and then I might not have been able to take that bowl back,

He's not totally ignorant as we've done food refusal training for service work...for instance if something falls from a table he is not to touch because that would be rude if we were eating out...and potentially dangerous. I've dropped raisins on the floor or things dogs shouldn't eat. He'll see something hit and either he defaults to leave it or I tell him to Roomba (eat off the floor haha).

We compete in Rally and there are exercises where bowls of food are set out on the course and you have to work around them. In fact I did that today... serpentine in 4 cones except 1 cone is replaced by a food bowl with food in it. Heeling around it. This type of thing is valuable. Being able to walk your dog by something they want but they know how to resist is a valuable real world skill. My lab is a service dog and sometimes there's food on the floor of the grocery store, but he isn't to eat it! But I feel that it's different because of what the expectation is. When we train they know the expectation is that their engagement is on me, any food only comes from me. The dogs were in their crates when I set up the course. I took each out one by one and told to heel, which means you are engaged with me and you don't look down or shop for food. They had no expectation of eating out of that bowl.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> But that was my whole point, I DIDN'T teach him that it's no big deal to have me take his bowl back from him. It's happened once in his life. And yes, it was no big deal.


In normal dog training, we'd say the dog was never proofed then and it worked out when you took your chances. 

Also....lab. Often hyper food driven, seldom hyper food aggressive


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

WNGD said:


> In normal dog training, we'd say the dog was never proofed then and it worked out when you took your chances.
> 
> Also....lab. Often hyper food driven, seldom hyper food aggressive


 I dont “proof” taking a bowl out from under my hungry dogs nose. I’ve done it once in the last fifteen years I can think of so not a thing that happens much. On the other hand walking through places and needing to keep from picking up random stuff off the ground-- that does happen so I do proof for that. There may have been a time I did eons ago but I don't currently think it's a worthwhile thing to do.

I disagree with you with a lot you’ve said in this thread.

I have a decent amount Of experience with resource guarding with 2 GSDs I owned, one herding breed that's not mine, a pretty serious rottie, also not mine.

they all responded well to non confrontational, reward based training and management. My adult rescue would bring the same amount of aggression that was brought to him in a situation OR he would de escalate if the the human did. That dog I had a real issue with when the neighbor's lab puppy brought over a giant rawhide and my dog got hold of it. The neighbor wanted it back and I found myself having to get this new prize out of my shepherd's mouth who was a guarder. There's a real life situation of having to take food away from a dog once they've got it. I stayed calm, I did not get nasty with the dog or correct him because I already knew that he would come back at me if he sensed that. 

I calmly asked him to trade me the rawhide (something I had started to teach him-- but not with his food bowl!) and then I waited him out for a minute. I actually didn't have anything to trade him with on me at the time. He did release the loot without a fight and I immediately took him inside and rewarded him handsomely- even though he had growled at me at first, the last thing he did was hand over a high value item, so I wanted him to remember it was worth his while. 

I teach dogs to trade, I teach dogs that if they give something up they will get something of equal or greater value as reward. And they have an expectation of not being bothered when they are eating or chewing high value things I gave them.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I disagree with you with a lot you’ve said in this thread.


That's OK you're not the first and will be far from the last 

I already stated that I may not have had a resource guarding dog (or perhaps just prevented them from exhibiting that trait) but I'll tell you one thing for sure. When I need to get a dangerous thing out of my dog's possession, I don't beg, I don't wait them out, I don't trade and for some reason, I don't get growled at or bitten....

I have had 2 Rotties (together), 3 Catahoula (together with a Chesapeake), a GSD cross and 6 German Shepherds now (2 together). The most people tell me is I must have been lucky then.... but I'll try to not give advice to adolescent or older resource guarders, I have no experience with them.


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## CactusWren (Nov 4, 2018)

I hand-fed Jupiter for about the first 8 months of his life. Now I can take steak out of his mouth. Is it because I trained him? 

Probably not.

Patricia McConnell: 

"*CAUSES OF RESOURCE GUARDING:* That’s easy to answer: We don’t know. Seriously, we really, really don’t know. "

It hasn't been definitively established whether resource guarding is genetic or learned behavior. 

The discussion reminds me of the people congratulating themselves for having non-fussy babies who they could take to dinner parties and leave in a spare room without any issue, whereas mine needed constant attention and rarely slept. Oh, the advice they gave! 









Resource Guarding: Treatment and Prevention - The Other End of the Leash


Years ago, I took care of a gooey-sweet adolescent Border collie, (Tilly, I’ll call her) who flattened her ears and folded like a bird’s wing every time you said her name. She was responsive and polite, and the other dogs seemed to like her as much as I did. It was especially rainy when she […]




www.patriciamcconnell.com


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

CactusWren said:


> I hand-fed Jupiter for about the first 8 months of his life. Now I can take steak out of his mouth. Is it because I trained him?
> 
> Probably not.
> 
> ...


"I’ll go on record as saying that, in general, I expect every one of my dogs to let me take anything away from them without protest. Caveats: First, I am very careful not to abuse that right."

So we don't know whether it's genetic or learned behavior. And I totally agree with her point above.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I dont “proof” taking a bowl out from under my hungry dogs nose. I’ve done it once in the last fifteen years I can think of so not a thing that happens much. On the other hand walking through places and needing to keep from picking up random stuff off the ground-- that does happen so I do proof for that. There may have been a time I did eons ago but I don't currently think it's a worthwhile thing to do.
> 
> I disagree with you with a lot you’ve said in this thread.
> 
> ...


Love it!!!!


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

WNGD said:


> That's OK you're not the first and will be far from the last
> 
> I already stated that I may not have had a resource guarding dog (or perhaps just prevented them from exhibiting that trait) but I'll tell you one thing for sure. When I need to get a dangerous thing out of my dog's possession, I don't beg, I don't wait them out, I don't trade and for some reason, I don't get growled at or bitten....
> 
> I have had 2 Rotties (together), 3 Catahoula (together with a Chesapeake), a GSD cross and 6 German Shepherds now (2 together). The most people tell me is I must have been lucky then.... but I'll try to not give advice to adolescent or older resource guarders, I have no experience with them.


ok well it was approximately a 2ft long giant rawhide bone. Not dangerous in the least for him to hold it in his mouth for a minute.

I’m pretty sure I never said anything about begging, either. Obviously you think I am less of a handler for not retaliating when my dog growled at me. That’s ok. He was an adult adopted out of rescue who had been given up 6 times prior to us. He came to me as a guarder and when the rawhide thing happened I hadn’t known him or had him long and I’m not going to the mat over some stupid rawhide if there is a safer way to get it. I got it from him, I got it without an altercation or a bite. And I was always able to take high value items from him the rest of his life without any drama. He didn’t scare me off by growling and go on to bully me.

He had a long successful and peaceful life with us and died of cancer in our arms. There was no long term aggression in this dog with us and his resource guarding was a complete non issue for the rest of his life with us after some work.

I don’t go to every fight a dog invites me to, there are other ways. I pick my methods and I pick my battles.

I hope people understand that what I am suggesting and how I live with my dogs is not begging them to do things or letting them push people around. But I also don’t get a bruised ego if a dog who has lived as a stray half his life growls at me over a stolen rawhide.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> ok well it was approximately a 2ft long giant rawhide bone. Not dangerous in the least for him to hold it in his mouth for a minute.
> 
> I’m pretty sure I never said anything about begging, either. Obviously you think I am less of a handler for not retaliating when my dog growled at me. That’s ok. He was an adult adopted out of rescue who had been given up 6 times prior to us. He came to me as a guarder and when the rawhide thing happened I hadn’t known him or had him long and I’m not going to the mat over some stupid rawhide if there is a safer way to get it. I got it from him, I got it without an altercation or a bite. And I was always able to take high value items from him the rest of his life without any drama. He didn’t scare me off by growling and go on to bully me.
> 
> ...


I wasn't referring specifically to you, it's a broad discussion.
And you know it's why so many people stop giving advice that works for them because so many are easy to take offense here. Look no further than a number of very good posters who look to have stopped entering the many biting threads.

I already stated that my opinion is towards pups and adolescents; I'e never had an older or rescue guarder and i don't think lesser of anyone on this boards for how they treat their own dogs (short of abuse). Deal with the dog in front of you.

I said when I have to get a dangerous thing out of my dog's possession, not that what your dog had was dangerous. However, that bone could have been depending on how badly the other dog wanted it back .... it could be poison, it could be a sharp bone or stick, it could be the neighbor's cat, I want it quickly and without question. That's just me, you do you.

Peace out.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I took a bowl of food away from my male when he accidentally got into the other dog’s food. He is highly allergic. I shouted Leave it! which scared him enough look up, and I grabbed it. He realized he made a mistake because of my attitude. There was no growling or reaction, except I got it before he ate too much. He still ended up with welts everywhere. Since I sometimes throw extra food into their bowls, they grew up not minding hands.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I don’t go to every fight a dog invites me to, there are other ways. I pick my methods and I pick my battles.


👆



> I hope people understand that what I am suggesting and how I live with my dogs is not begging them to do things or letting them push people around.


I think most of us here do understand that. I do things very similarly to you, and have for many years and many dogs. It's worked extremely well. But I've found that whenever this subject comes up here, there will always be people who either misinterpret or pretend to, completely mischaracterizing what I've, you've, and lots of others have actually said. I don't get why they do it but it happens all the time.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> 👆
> 
> 
> 
> I think most of us here do understand that. I do things very similarly to you, and have for many years and many dogs. It's worked extremely well. But I've found that whenever this subject comes up here, there will always be people who either misinterpret or pretend to, completely mischaracterizing what I've, you've, and lots of others have actually said. I don't get why they do it but it happens all the time.


I completely understand what you and others are saying.
I do things a bit different and always have. I deliberately and with planning create an environment where meal times are highly social and involve a lot of touching and sharing. I do this because I was primarily raising fosters who would most often end up with novice owners in households with children. I do a ton of hand feeding, adding yummies and ear scratches. Good stuff. Hold dish and puppy in lap, share my chicken. Talking, petting, laughing. It works for me.
I do not condone ever taking a dogs food away or withholding it as training. That to me is foolish. I would stab you with a fork if you took my food! Yet tons of trainers utilize these methods with success.
If I had a dog that showed serious food guarding issues, I would simply crate it for meals and ensure a solid leave it command. It just isn't the hill I choose to die on.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I'm just going to say that training 12 dogs doesn't make you an expert at anything.

Resource guarding exists on a genetic level. If you haven't experienced it, fantastic. Good for you. You know nothing about it. 

Go train a few hundred dogs, or just one that will fight you for what it wants, and get back to the conversation.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> I completely understand what you and others are saying.
> I do things a bit different and always have. I deliberately and with planning create an environment where meal times are highly social and involve a lot of touching and sharing. I do this because I was primarily raising fosters who would most often end up with novice owners in households with children. I do a ton of hand feeding, adding yummies and ear scratches. Good stuff. Hold dish and puppy in lap, share my chicken. Talking, petting, laughing. It works for me.
> I do not condone ever taking a dogs food away or withholding it as training. That to me is foolish. I would stab you with a fork if you took my food! Yet tons of trainers utilize these methods with success.
> If I had a dog that showed serious food guarding issues, I would simply crate it for meals and ensure a solid leave it command. It just isn't the hill I choose to die on.


I feed 2 dogs that are prone to resource guard daily. They know what to expect and I manage them appropriately. I afford them space and time. I manage the other dog when they encroach. Each dog knows they can eat in peace in their space.

Any correction is given to the encroaching dog/kid/leprechaun, not the dog with its snout in the bowl.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Sabis mom said:


> I deliberately and with planning create an environment where meal times are highly social and involve a lot of touching and sharing. I do this because I was primarily raising fosters who would most often end up with novice owners in households with children. I do a ton of hand feeding, adding yummies and ear scratches. Good stuff. Hold dish and puppy in lap, share my chicken. Talking, petting, laughing. It works for me.
> I do not condone ever taking a dogs food away or withholding it as training. That to me is foolish. I would stab you with a fork if you took my food!


I don't see anything wrong with that approach as long as a particular dog is clearly comfortable with it. It's not the same as those who take food away as a way to teach the dog it will get it back. Sure, that might work with some dogs, but those dogs were probably never potential guarders to begin with. Other dogs, who have a genetic predisposition, may be learning a completely different lesson - that food can disappear at any time, for no reason, either creating or exacerbating an issue that could have been avoided or minimized using other methods. I've only had one dog who I thought could easily end up being a guarder - Halo, so I was very proactive about making sure she never felt the need. And she never did, she trusted me completely around her food and other resources. I was always consistent, fair, and predictable. Be trustworthy and your dog is likely to trust you. A dog who trusts you not to snatch away valued resources shouldn't feel the need to guard them from you. With hard core working dogs like David has trained it may be different, he obviously has tons more experience than I do.

Cava is the opposite of Halo in that regard. I still did all the same foundation stuff with her anyway, it's just how I raise and train puppies, but I don't think she ever actually needed it. She's super food driven and obsessive and possessive with balls, but she has good manners too.



> If I had a dog that showed serious food guarding issues, I would simply crate it for meals and ensure a solid leave it command. It just isn't the hill I choose to die on.


Same.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I don’t train hundreds of dogs but I do easily handle hundreds of dogs...all with varying personality, issues, training, breed traits. 

now, I won’t board a dog I think wants to or would deliberately hurt me. I do my best to weed those out.

But back before I made that decision I didn’t have a rule against more dangerous dogs. Until I handled enough of them to realize I don’t want to handle dogs like that. It just isn’t worth it to me.


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