# How NOT to train agility



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

*speechless*


----------



## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Ok, I know nothing about agility, but that was crazy. Being jerked through and over objects is just plain odd. 
I'm not sure that dog will ever really love it after that introduction to the sport!


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Wow..


----------



## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

Poor dog.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

"Still a little hesitant" and the dog is literally bucking and flipping to back out of the collar and away from the obstacle, and "Starting to get the hang of it" and the dog is basically being hung and pulled through the weaves.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

wow...look at all that stress panting going on. Poor little girl.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Maybe she doesn't own any hot dogs  Sheesh folks, give her a break!

Just kidding. People like that should not own dogs. When I got one of those and set it up in my front room, even a dolt such as myself could figure out to lure them through, not shove or yank.
I even had the cat going through it. But cats kind of enjoy that sort of thing LOL


----------



## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I don't see anything wrong with the video. I mean it happy up beat music to, so it must be ok. (Sarcasm)


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I'm more angered at the trainer than the owner. I think the owner just doesn't know any better. She's not off the hook for sure, but the trainer SHOULD know better. Even despite the fact that the poor dog is being hung and dragged around, the trainer should know that you don't run a dog through half a course on its first day doing agility! I mean, I have a dog that has an agility TITLE and he still doesn't know all the obstacles.

Watch the other video of the dog aggressive dog. Basically he attaches the dog to his waist with two leashes, jerks it around until it gets tired and then drags it passed another dog and it's called "counter conditioned" after 20 minutes.


----------



## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

I couldn't even watch all of it because my blood is boiling.

Why doesn't she just tie her leash to a log and drag it around, same effect?


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I'm more angered at the trainer than the owner. I think the owner just doesn't know any better. She's not off the hook for sure, but the trainer SHOULD know better. Even despite the fact that the poor dog is being hung and dragged around, the trainer should know that you don't run a dog through half a course on its first day doing agility! I mean, I have a dog that has an agility TITLE and he still doesn't know all the obstacles.
> 
> Watch the other video of the dog aggressive dog. Basically he attaches the dog to his waist with two leashes, jerks it around until it gets tired and then drags it passed another dog and it's called "counter conditioned" after 20 minutes.


Wow...that video with the dog aggressive dog makes me literally want to hurt that guy. What a complete and total idiot. Unbelievable.


----------



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Liesje said:


> I'm more angered at the trainer than the owner. I think the owner just doesn't know any better. She's not off the hook for sure, but the trainer SHOULD know better. Even despite the fact that the poor dog is being hung and dragged around, the trainer should know that you don't run a dog through half a course on its first day doing agility! I mean, I have a dog that has an agility TITLE and he still doesn't know all the obstacles.


I think this is the most reasonable explanation. I still vividly remember my first ever formal dog training class. I took what they said as biblical- how was I supposed to know otherwise. It's not the owner's fault, and I _don't_ think they "should" now better. If you've never seen it (which let's face it- how many of you had actually seen an agility trial or training prior to signing up for a class) then you can only trust that what your trainer is telling you is how it's supposed to be done.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

But why would someone sign up for agility "blind", never watching a dog actually do it or heck even watching a few runs and YouTube? One of my dogs is scared of one of the obstacles (Coke will not do that chute), absolutely won't do it, but who cares we just skip around that one and keep going. It's supposed to be FUN. I don't think it takes any experience to see that not only is the dog not having fun it looks like it's alternating between terrified and just shutting down.


----------



## LaneyB (Feb 5, 2012)

_One of my dogs is scared of one of the obstacles (Coke will not do that chute), absolutely won't do it, but who cares we just skip around that one and keep going. It's supposed to be FUN. I don't think it takes any experience to see that not only is the dog not having fun it looks like it's alternating between terrified and just shutting down. _

I agree with this completely. My daughter (she was probably 13 or 14 at the time) decided to train our old lab in agility in the back yard. Even she knew at that age to make it fun and not force him. He never did do the tunnel, no matter how she tried to tempt him. Plus he was big and slow so he looked pretty hilarious doing agility, and was clearly doing it for the treats she gave him. I don't think he ever got to the point of going from task to task as he waited in between each for his reward.


----------



## kbella999 (Jan 6, 2012)

That was incredibly sad to watch. That poor dog. My dog would shut down in the first few minutes if I treated him like that. Looks like the guy removed the videos or made them private.


----------



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Lies- I signed up blind. I was told that agility would build my dog's confidence and let's face it- who doesn't think that running over an a-frame is super cool!? Now, that's where the similarities stop of course. I did end up going to a trial as a spectator and I did start digging in to high level agility competitors...

But the fact remains- I started blind without ever seeing an agility dog.

BTW- same thing goes for nosework. I signed up for that blind as well. Turns out- I _still_ can't find video of a single nosework trial on youtube. I have no idea what a NW1,2, or 3 level trial looks like. I have found video of the Odor Recognition Test (ORT) but that's it. The difference now is that I have formulated my own opinion of how to most effectively train a dog. So now even though I'm going into nosework blind, at least I can question the instructor from an educated perspective rather than buying everything she says as biblical.


----------



## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

The video says "private"


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Willy I see the point but I just can't excuse how the dogs were treated in those videos. I'm sorry there's just no excuse. There's a difference between maybe rushing things, not using the best training methods, not having the best timing...and having a dog flipping like a fish in fear being stuffed over/under/through obstacles. We all had to start somewhere and we all have and continue to make dumb training mistakes and refine our methods and technique but the way the dog was treated was horrible to me whether it's agility or basic obedience or Schutzhund. Also I think being in a class setting, even if it's not the BEST class with the BEST trainers, someone would have called that person out (I hope). I do agility mostly for fun and exercise and rarely trial, so I know that most of the time really good agility trainers would scoff at how I train but at least the dogs are *willing*. They are off leash, getting rewarded, often have to be restrained or put in a stationary position to *prevent* them from driving forward on their own.


----------



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Oh- I _definitely_ agree about the training! I would also hope someone would call out the crappy training. My only point was that the handler may not realize this isn't "the right way" to do things. I meant nothing further... I agree the trainer should be pushed prodded and shoved through things. Pretty pathetic training.

I will add- I've seen quite a few people practically begging their dogs to weave with handler motions for literally each pole. So while I didn't like seeing the dog basically jerked through each pole on lead- I'm seriously not surprised by it. Maybe that's why I'm not so "shocked" by the training. Lack of knowledge and theory begets crappy training. Not surprising. The thing that _would_ be shocking is if the trainer actually even competes in the sport.


----------



## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

I missed the video but a lot of people think you have to force dogs to overcome what they are afraid of or just that training is all about forcing the dog to do what you want them to do. 

I was doing 4H agility a few weeks ago when a non-dog club member mother happened to be at the fairgrounds with her dog. She asked if she could try some of the stuff with her dog when the kids were done. She came in with the dog on a way too big choke collar. We tried a very low jump with moderate success. She tried to take him over a contact and I had to stop her. I took him and tried to help her get him through a short tunnel by holding him at one end and seeing if she could call him through. It very quickly became obvious that this dog was not only not going to do anything though. He was extremely stressed out and probably used to being manhandled and forced by his owner. At least that is the only thing I could guess based on how very quickly his stress level got to a too-stressed-to-think point and his extremely anxious behaviors when the owner was trying to get him to do anything. So I said, I don't think he's going to do this today. She wasn't real happy that I wouldn't let her force him to do it. Then she took him off of me and when he jumped up to greet her, she hit him in the head and yelled at him. While telling me she wants her daughter to train him in 4H next year... If you asked this woman, she would have no clue her dog was stressed out. She would see his behavior as being "stubborn". She would think I have no idea what I'm talking about or that my methods won't work with dogs like her's. 

Someone I know has a young (savvy aged) dog who is becoming increasingly phobic about the teeter. AFAIK the dog ha snever done the full teeter but anything moving under her feet scares her and noise scares. The bang game even with the teeter an inch off the ground is worrisome for her. Wobble boards scare her. Fitness balls or pods scare her. Watching/hearing dogs doing anything on the teeter scares her. And the dog's breeder told the owner that a lot of her dogs are that way and that the best course of action is to just start forcing her to do the things she afraid of so she gets over it. "Drag her across the teeter". And this is some one who has competed in agility for years and placed dogs in very competitive homes.

And people don't always recognize that their dog isn't having fun. They don't recognize what we see as obvious signs of stress in their dogs. Not just pet people but I can't tell you how many people at trials have dogs who are stressed and the people have no clue that is why their dog isn't reliable, sometimes runs fine and sometimes doesn't, that contacts or weaves or jumps make them worry, etc. I can't tell you how many dogs I see in my area who are trialing and showing extremely obvious signs of stress that seem to go unnoticed by the owner, their instructors and even many of the people watching. It's sad really but it happens all the time. There are dogs I see run trial after trial, year after year who rarely Q and it is so obvious the dog doesn't enjoy the game. While they don't generally drag dogs over equipment, many instructors around here still tell people their dog is having issues because they are stubborn or blowing off things they know.


----------

