# Training dogs in public places



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

In Germany dogs are expected to behave in public places. Granted we've got tons of "Oh, he's friendly" and than they are not, kind of folks. Or dogs that don't behave but generally, a lot of people take their dogs to public places and to restaurants and the dogs behave, while over here, it's not such a common sight and people seem to have a very different opinion about training dogs in public places. 
I know people who have worked their dogs around the crowds at a train station for Schutzhund Competition Obedience, just for example. 

Now I have started a whole lot of controversy in my city because I take my dogs to public places and to me it is part of SAR training because we do demonstrations, we go into class rooms and I take that very very seriously and since two of my dogs are in SAR I tend to believe that a heck of a lot more is expected from us and therefor I constantly train for it. 

Now some folks believe "it's not needed" and it's not something they do or don't even agree with it. 
Personally, tough luck. It's how I things do and it is why I can take all three of my dogs together to places, sit down and they settle. I want to be able to go somewhere or to be in an emergency situation (like I recently was) and not having to worry about my dogs misbehaving or not functioning in that situation. I do want to leave such a good impression that people invite us back because they are impressed with their behavior. I want to be able to say "We are with the Oswego Team." and people are like "Wow, your dogs are well behaved." 
And I want to know that they could ride on a bus without having issues to get on the bus and trust me, not every dog is comfortable in riding a bus. 

I want to be able to hand them over to somebody else so they can take them on the back seat of one of the trucks, without them going nuts and crazy because I'm not there. 
I want somebody else to be able to carry them, if needed. I want them to be comfortable in an elevator, on a rig, on a truck, on the back of an ATV, at a fair with lots of blinking, loud noises, with gunshots, canonshots, fireworks, thunderstorms or simply in a beergarden of a restaurant with lots of food and I want them all to settle underneath a table and relax without bothering anyone. Yes, most of that is strong nerves and temperament and neither of them has any issues with any of that, yet I do not stop training. 

To me, that is very important and while they already have strong nerves and the temperament and socialization, I continue to train for it, because you can't have enough training on your dog. 

Others may have the same nerve strength, the same temperament but I've seen dogs not being able to settle in a public place because they weren't as used to it as mine. And quite honestly, I rather train for any and all situations I can come across than not train at all. It's not flashy training, it's necessary training that I believe is important to leave a good impression anywhere we go because every day the society expects more of our dogs, and I noticed that people have yet even more expectations of SAR Dogs. 

To me, it just never stops and I do believe, in the future it will become even more important while it gets harder and harder to put them through that kind of training because dogs are getting more and more banned from places and all we do is sit back and watch because "hey... there are always other places we can take them to." without ever thinking about that even those places may disappear in the future because we sat back and didn't do anything about it and just let it happen...


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## cwmia (Jul 6, 2011)

*It makes a dog so easy to live with if they cna go more places.*

I bring my dog anywhere I legally can. Lawyer, accountant, train station etc. Today we were in the bank. She lay in front of my feet at the teller and the woman next to me was talking to her, bent over and looking...but Kyla never moved. She listened to the lovely compliments, put her head down and waited until I was finished. People coming, going, making eye contact....it is such a good education for the dog and also the public. I think it also made people happy to see a dog with good manners....whenever I have Kyla with me someone is always running to open a door. Good dogs bring ou the goodness in people.

Catherine


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## Sir Bear (Mar 9, 2012)

I stopped taking Bear to outdoor restaurants because even though he was perfectly behaved too many people were insanely uncomfortable with it. I've had people "whisper" loud enough that I can hear that nobody should bring a dog that large out in public....what do they expect?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I am all for taking dogs out into public areas in order to make them good citizens, show the public we have well mannered dogs, socialize them, get them used to all types of different situations.

However, I think we (general we), tend to be a "sue happy society", dogs that dont fit into the above, a 'bad apple', can ruin it for others and be a HUGE liability. Then there is the 'food' issue, you won't find many restaurants, eating establishments allowing dogs because of the "health" issue. 

Years ago, things were different, I could take my dogs into stores, into outdoor eating establishments, to fairs, now, it's not allowed. Heck the store I worked in (a food store) we had Cats that used to hang out on the counters  Now, we'd be shut down so fast it would make your head spin..It's a "health" issue.

There ARE a ton of places I can take my dogs out in public around here, which I'm grateful for and don't abuse..Once someone abuses it tho, it will affect not just that one but everyone. 

I guess it depends on where you live and what the laws/rules are. 

I can honestly see why the rules/law whatever it is, was put in place with your (MRS K) situation, a dog 'bit' someone, so unfortunately all dogs will pay for one bad apple.

I'm sure it's all about liability.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Well, I think if the dog has good nerve it really does not need to be extensively socialized for every possible situation it might encounter. Honestly a hot summer night with deiseling fire trucks, a haze of deisel fumes, and lot of lights, throw in a helicopter...that is a more realistic scenario for a SAR dog than a busy market....

The deal with SAR is you just can't prepare for everything. So enough that the dog is confident no matter what ... even my poorly nerved first dog I washed out (Toby) was able to handle a crowded airport a plane, and elevator and a subway without any major stress and a very good nerved one should not even flinch.


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## cwmia (Jul 6, 2011)

I guess I should qualify my statements a little more. I agree, liability is a very real issue everywhere. I always have her on a leash in these places (I'm not talking about hiking in the woods). I never set my dog up for a disaster and there are plenty of times we didn't go into the bank or wherever because the "bad apple" was already in there (a little terrier growling at people in the line up....I'm not kidding either.) But, when I have the opportunity to let the public see what good manners are all about I do, because if the good ones always stay away then the only thing people will remember are the bad ones.
The other thing Mrs. K said about "settling" is also really important. I can go visit family, friends, nursing home etc. and Kyla settles. Her mother, Mia, was so good that way too.....I can still picture her jammed in between the wheelchairs at the Christmas concert in the nursing home with the instruments blaring. The more you can expose them to make them part of your daily life instead of just walks teaches them (and us) so much. Settling becomes second nature.
Catherine


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Sir Bear said:


> I stopped taking Bear to outdoor restaurants because even though he was perfectly behaved too many people were insanely uncomfortable with it. I've had people "whisper" loud enough that I can hear that nobody should bring a dog that large out in public....what do they expect?


As long as your dog is behaving there is nothing they can do about it except whisper. I would keep taking your dog wherever you can that is allowed


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

When my dogs are puppies/youngsters, they are harder to handle and more piss and vinegar so to speak. They are acting up because they are young and not confident in every situation. Really, whether or not I drag them out, when they are two they are way easier in every situation, and a year or so later they are like bomb-proof. 

With a lot of dogs, I don't take them all out constantly, in fact, they are lucky to get out once a week to training class, and if there is no class, they generally don't go. But still, as they mature, they do just fine in public when I do have to take them somewhere. 

If I was training a service dog or a SAR dog, then I would be out and about with the pups all the time, I would probably spend at least half of my time every day, wherever I go with the dogs. But most people just do not need that level of socialization. 

Maybe service dog organizations, and SAR clubs could be issued a number of vests that if worn by an up and coming member, would allow access where other dogs are not generally permitted.

Frankly, I don't want dogs in restaurants or movie theaters, or grocery stores or banks. My reason is simple. Too many owners are just too stupid, and too many dogs will be that much more likely to get in trouble. The more incidents, the quicker locations are going to put bans and restrictions on dog-ownership. If you want to eat with your dog, stay home and cook. You can cook with your dog, and eat with your dog. But everyone else in the world should not have to pay to eat next to your dog. Eating out is for me something special, I don't eat out often, and when I do, I really don't want someone's ill mannered dog begging, acting up, etc. And the minute it becomes commonplace for well-mannered dogs to be places, people who don't bother to train or curb their dogs will bring them. 

My dogs live a great life and do not suffer because they don't accompany me to restaurants, and most other public places.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I don't know they really need to be wearing their vests too many places but search training. The vest is only on at training when they are actively searching. Usually the handler takes it off after they found the victim.

They really do not need much more socialization than the average well rounded pet or sport dog. ... the kind of things they need exposure to are things like helicopters, fire engines, lights, smoke, trains, night, farm animals, farm equipment, getting hung up and and unhung from brush and barbed wire, the woods, etc. 

I have been on Wilderness SAR teams 1999-2001 and 2003 to present and don't know of anyone who has felt the need to take socialization to the level of crowded public events where dogs are explicitly banned such as festivals etc. Why is this needed?

We do have folks bring the uncertified dogs to searches to get them used to the "scene" without working them because there are many of the things I mentioned as well as


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I was specifically told to put the vest on them by the city officials so the dogs are not mistaken with pet dogs. Also, the dogs can lose a vest in training or on a search. A dog should be capable of working with or without a vest. If a dog stops working just because he doesn't have his vest on, than the dog shouldn't be in the line of work he's in. 

And maybe, just maybe, because of anti-social dogs that are not socialized, yet promoted as search dogs, without obedience "because it kills drive" is because wilderness search dogs have a bad reputation! Been talking about that very issue with some SAR Folks from another team and they said that especially in the past they had a heck of a lot of wilderness search dogs that shouldn't have been search dogs. No manners, nerve bags, anti-social, no obedience and that is why a lot of search dogs have a bad rep. 

I've seen enough dogs within the past year that should NOT be on a team. The same goes for Therapy Dogs. Just today there was a dog in daycare with the "I am a Therapy Dog" tag on his collar. That dog is NOT Therapy Dog Material. Went straight into avoidance, snapped at my hand and you could not even touch her, I had to use a leash and tangle it around her neck to be able to take her out of the Kennel Area.


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

What also hurts programs are those that claim to train, wear vests but are only doing it for attention or to be able to take their dog(s) where others normally don't. Service dogs have the same problem. I guess it's why I've always been glad to be a police handler. I can pretty much take mine, on duty, anywhere I want. 

DFrost


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Mrs K, I never said that too much obedience kills drive. I have said that a dog can be made too clingy and handler dependant. I can see where properly trained obedience can still result in a dog capable of ranging out well away from its handler as needed . 

I have, however, seen dogs with a lot of early obedience and tethered as pups for whom the comfort zone will not allow them to range out from their handler unless the handler pushes them out as another obedience command. That, not having a rude and uncontrolled dog, was my point.

Yes the dog should be able to work without a vest but it is still one of many orienting cues to the dog which does have some meaning if they are not wearing it all the time. 

I still have zero understanding of your need for an exemption to take your dog to crowded public events which specifically exclude dogs. Your dog can already go out in public and to public things like doing demos etc. The exclusion was for stated festivals and the farmers market. A non scent specific non disaster dog is simply not going to be working in that venue. 

I agree an dog incapable of being in a crowd or comfortable with the public should not be in SAR but the reality is there are other exposures more relevant to SAR and ways to get this exposure without special priveleges.

I also think (and to me this is the most important point) that when a SAR handler is asked by authorities to leave they should not argue the point and refuse to leave but quietly leave and quietly take the issue up with the proper authorities in private. My concern is if you will do this, will you wind up on a search where you disagree with the judgement of a search manager (it will happen), and then take your case to the press instead of escalating it through proper channels?


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

DFrost said:


> What also hurts programs are those that claim to train, wear vests but are only doing it for attention or to be able to take their dog(s) where others normally don't. Service dogs have the same problem. I guess it's why I've always been glad to be a police handler. I can pretty much take mine, on duty, anywhere I want.
> 
> DFrost


Again, thank you for your two cents. I agree.

The few people we know with service dogs do not burden the public (open community events/gatherings) with their training. No school functions, no free "stuff" , etc. because of their job. I am impressed with the training even though I have never seen it done, they have just been trained.

Our community openly supports our local police department. I saw one of our K9 officers recently with his working dog "Blaze", officer dressed in his civilian clothes walking his K9 by the lake, having a good time. We both said friendly hello's and went on our way with our dogs.

There was no "show boating" on his part.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

jocoyn said:


> I still have zero understanding of your need for an exemption to take your dog to crowded public events which specifically exclude dogs. Your dog can already go out in public and to public things like doing demos etc. The exclusion was for stated festivals and the farmers market. A non scent specific non disaster dog is simply not going to be working in that venue.
> 
> I agree an dog incapable of being in a crowd or comfortable with the public should not be in SAR but the reality is there are other exposures more relevant to SAR and ways to get this exposure without special priveleges.
> 
> ...


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> I also think (and to me this is the most important point) that when a SAR handler is asked by authorities to leave they should not argue the point and refuse to leave but quietly leave and quietly take the issue up with the proper authorities in private. My concern is if you will do this, will you wind up on a search where you disagree with the judgement of a search manager (it will happen), and then take your case to the press instead of escalating it through proper channels?


I wanted to leave but was told to wait because the Cop and the Dog Warden discussed the law and the Cop went to get the law. Like I said, there was a whole lot of confusion going on. If I am told by the Cop to wait, I wait and I was standing at the Dog Wardens tent, with the Dog Warden getting much more exposure and publicity than I wanted to because the Cop said I should wait. You guys do not have all the facts. Don't believe everything that is in the press. I never said I was at the Council, I never said that I should have been exempt. I had prior permission as long as she would wear her vest so we wouldn't get kicked off. 

BTW, the City Manager apologized for how things went down, she did meet with Indra and my Team Coordinator also talked to her because I asked him to.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think you gave us the facts in previous postings, but no matter. What's done is done sounds like a mis communication on all parts that has now been made clear.

You now know the rules/law/regs whatever and will have to abide by them like everyone else. I'm sure there are tons of places you can take the dogs onleash, I'd be taking advantage of where I could go if thats your choice.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I think you gave us the facts in previous postings, but no matter. What's done is done sounds like a mis communication on all parts that has now been made clear.
> 
> You now know the rules/law/regs whatever and will have to abide by them like everyone else. I'm sure there are tons of places you can take the dogs onleash, I'd be taking advantage of where I could go if thats your choice.


Yes, the whole thing was blown way out of proportion because of one person that should have known better, however, it's politics and that is what that person did, he used the situation for himself but at the same time it caused outpouring support from within the EMS Community and people we work with. 

I do not have to worry about places where I can proof my dogs off or properties where I can do search training, anymore and it's all outside of Watertown.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Oh, and there is one thing I have learned. Never trust a politician. Even if they know you personally, they will sacrifice you in a heartbeat if they can gain something out of it!


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Mrs.K said:


> Personally, tough luck. It's how I things do and it is why I can take all three of my dogs together to places, sit down and they settle.


When I had my 5 adult GSDs I could take them anywhere and they would behave and settle.

That doesn't mean I felt ENTITLED to do it or that it was some type of right I had. That type of thinking is just wrong.

If dogs are not allowed somewhere, they are NOT ALLOWED. End of story.

If a dog is not ACTIVELY on duty (for whatever job it does) then they have to follow all the rules, just like any other dog.

Even DFrost said that when he is ON DUTY is the only time he believes his dogs should be allowed to go anywhere.

The *ONLY *dogs that should be allowed to go anywhere, anytime are dogs that have a human dependent on them - like seeing eye, hearing ear, seizure alert, etc. These dogs jobs are to keep their human safe and they should be allowed to go where-ever their human goes.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Right. Taking it out of context really helps... it has nothing to do with me feeling entitled. It has everything to do with some people not understanding or even agreeing that to me socializing and obedience training is very important. If they don't agree with me, tough luck. They don't have to but it doesn't keep me from working my dogs the way I FEEL I have to work them. 

If I don't agree with their training methods, tough luck for me, because it won't change how THEY work their dogs!


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Mrs.K said:


> It has everything to do with some people not understanding or even agreeing that to me socializing and obedience training is very important.


I don't see where anyone said that S & OT is not important.

I did see several places where people said it can be done in areas where dogs *ARE *allowed and that there was no need to break, ignore of try to work around the rules.


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