# Inbreeding and Pedigrees



## Buggibub (Jul 1, 2010)

I am curious as to inbreeding in the pedigree lines. Before you respond, please know I am *NOT* interested in breeding at this time as I do not have the skill set. This is strictly me wanting to become educated.

My questions:

-Why would a breeder want to breed from an inbred dog?

-What inbreeding is considered generally "acceptable" (i.e. grandmother/grandson, father/granddaughter, etc.)?

-How many generations does it take before inbreeding characteristics are diluted out?

Any other comments/concerns/thoughts are greatly appreciated.

Thanks!


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## mehpenn (May 22, 2006)

There is a difference between "in-breeding" and "line-breeding".. In-breeding is typically within close generations/immediate family (mother/son, father/daughter/ grandmother/grandson, brother/sister) and is NOT generally acceptable. 

Line-breeding is used to enhance and build on desired characteristics, found within certain blood"lines". Line-breeding involves distant generations (dogs that may share a set of great-grandparents, distant cousin, great-great aunt to nephew). 

Out-crossing is breeding two dogs that are in no way related. This introduces new characteristics and genetics into the equation. 

My male has been linebred to his fourth cousin, they both have very strong herding stills and the goal was to keep those same talents. My female has only been out-crossed,while she has a great working lineage, and she's a working herder, she has very few actual herding dogs in her pedigree, so I feel her pups need a stronger herding sire, to concentrate their potential talent more.
It all depends on what you're looking for, and why you're breeding.


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## mehpenn (May 22, 2006)

We use the rule of thumb, at our farm, that anything more recent than four generations is unacceptable.


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## Buggibub (Jul 1, 2010)

I don't plan on breeding. I'm nowhere near knowledgeable enough and have way too much respect for the good ones to even attempt. Maybe years down the road, but doubtful. 

I didn't know the nomenclature. Thanks so much. 

So typically what are some things to be aware of in line-breeding? Also, with out-breeding, what are temperament/character risks?

When comparing the two, are you likely to have a more centrally focused desired product from line breeding as compared to a more (and I say this loosely) "well-rounded" product from out-breeding?

Is what I am asking making sense?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Normally, someone doing an inbreeding or close line-breeding would already have a specific goal/reason in mind. You can't really generalize these things. If you see a planned litter where this is the case, ask the breeder for the reason. Personally, I have seen some really, really successful close linebreeding, even inbreeding (these were not necessarily GSDs). Often a breeder will do it to set a type, and then after that go back to crossing out farther to avoid constant backmassing. But again, why someone does it and what results is very specific.


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## Buggibub (Jul 1, 2010)

So if someone has a dam/sire that was line bred for its phenomenal tracking abilities, and mate it to another line that was bred for their obedience and tenacity toward its owner/handler, would that combination theoretically start a line of dogs that would be brilliant at both?

At what point/generation do health risks minimalize due to whatever in-line breeding may have caused genetically? Or do dogs have more health characteristics/problems as inbreed/in-line than out-line?

Am I over thinking this?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

No, I think you're under thinking it. Your scenario is far too simple. That's like saying mix a pretty show line with a strong drive working line and get a super dog....rarely happens that way. You need more experience with how the actual lines (the actual dogs we are talking about, not just traits that describe them) interact. That only comes with knowing the dogs and experience breeding the lines.


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## Buggibub (Jul 1, 2010)

I think what I am mostly trying to ask first and foremost now knowing the proper nomenclature is the following:

-Are dogs that are line-bred more susceptible to and have increased risks relating to health and weak/nervous temperaments as compared to dogs that are out-bred?

-As a follow up, at what generation(s) do these potential health and temperament concerns due to line-breeding dilute out to the point where the associated potential health and temperament concerns are no longer an issue?




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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Buggibub said:


> I think what I am mostly trying to ask first and foremost now knowing the proper nomenclature is the following:
> 
> -Are dogs that are line-bred more susceptible to and have increased risks relating to health and weak/nervous temperaments as compared to dogs that are out-bred?
> 
> ...


It isn't as simple as that.

Inbreeding concentrates genetics. If a dog is linebred on Dog X, Dog X has a larger genetic contribution to the offspring. 

Whether this is a problem in health or temperament or anything else depends entirely on what genes Dog X has. If lots of genes for health and good temperament, then that will probably be the result. If lots of genes for health and temperament problems, then that will probably be the results. One thing that inbreeding does do is provide a greater chance than normal for recessive genes to recombine and become expressed. But again, whether that's a good thing or a bad thing depends on what those genes are.

Of course, no dog is perfect and all dogs have both good and bad genes. Whether the result works well or not depends on how good the good genes are and how bad the bad genes are as well as how well the bad genes can be compensated for in other areas of the pedigree. This is why it is so important for the breeder doing the inbreeding to have a thorough understanding of the dog being inbred on.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Being emphatically Not A Breeder, I'm a little hesitant to jump in on this one, but I'm going to go ahead and blather some and then hopefully somebody will yell at me if I say something exceptionally wrong or dumb.

So:



Buggibub said:


> -Are dogs that are line-bred more susceptible to and have increased risks relating to health and weak/nervous temperaments as compared to dogs that are out-bred?


I think this really depends on the line(s) involved.

If you are breeding specifically for strong nerves and good health*, and you know what you are doing, _and_ you have access to dogs who can produce those traits, then probably your linebreeding will have better nerves and health than would be produced by random chance.

(* -- this is sort of misleading though because "good health" is so very broad. What's the top priority? Is it sound hips? Long life? Strong teeth? No DM? Avoiding hemangio? Avoiding serious allergies or perianal fistulas? How much is genetically controllable and how much is due to diet, environment, exercise, stress levels? Not hard to see why this gets so complicated so quickly!

Likewise, "strong nerves" can get complicated quickly in a breed like the GSD where you often _want_ a certain amount of aggression and suspicion. That balance is very tricky to get right. No aggression, and you could have an overly friendly or mellow dog that many people would view as incorrect. Too much suspicion/aggression and you get the kind of snarly fearful nutbasket that, alas, many of us end up dealing with accidentally. So even assuming that a breeder IS taking these concerns into account, definitions and desirable levels for that breeder's purposes make this very complicated too.)

If you're linebreeding to strengthen some other trait -- strong herding instinct, let's say, or a great nose and work ethic for SAR -- then those might be linked to health and nerve (because a scaredybutt dog with bad health is not good for herding or SAR and would probably not be bred for those purposes), but the degree to which it's achieved may be lessened. You might want to emphasize that truly exceptional herding instinct even if it comes with slightly less great (but still healthy -- let's say OFA Fair instead of Excellent) hips. And if there's an unknown recessive lurking somewhere in the background, your chances of bringing it out are higher.

If you're aiming for a trait totally unconnected to working ability -- let's say an unusual coat color or a really nice plume-y tail -- then health and temperament may take a hit, particularly if the trait is so unusual that only a small number of dogs have it, and the breeding stock available with that trait also happens to have some other negative trait (so let's say you want to have purple shepherds, and there are only 10 known purple shepherds in the world, and they all have a common great-great-grandparent who was the first purple dog. 2 of the available purple shepherds have mild HD but really intense coloring, and 2 others have soft teeth, and 2 have somewhat spooky temperaments but produce great hips, so could be used to counteract the HD-but-great-color dogs... if you are dead set on purple, you're going to have to take the hit somewhere, or else you're going to get way inbred really fast).

An outcross is a dice roll. Hopefully less of a dice roll than a _truly_ random breeding (for the results of those, see your local shelter mutts), but the results are likely to be less predictable.

I don't think you ever get to a point where health and temperament cease to be concerns. Again, looking at the truly random outcrossed population of shelter mutts... lots and lots of health and temperament problems there. Fewer than in some purebred groups, to be sure, but I don't think it's ever something you can ever safely take for granted.

Anyway, that's my totally amateur understanding as someone who is not a breeder, has never tried to breed anything, and just reads a lot of stuff on the Internet.


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## Buggibub (Jul 1, 2010)

I see- and that makes sense. 

So what do the numbers mean on line-breeding I.E.- GSD X 5,5


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

The numbers refer to the generation that has the dog in common, sire's side listed first. So a dog linebred 3-4 on Dog X has X in the 3rd generation on the sire's side and 4th on the dam's side.


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## Buggibub (Jul 1, 2010)

Thanks Merciel. You're really getting to where I want to go/learn. My M.O. in a GSD as I've come to find out with my mild prey/mild DA/good health ASL GSD is that I really, really want to hone in on scent work and high-functioning wilderness intellect. 

My GSD has great wilderness prowess, but lacks the confidence to swim, or just "man-up in water." I wish he had a bit more drive for obstacles, but he is so sure footed and knows that the route I take probably isn't the best for him, and he knows to process for his own ability. He has fantastic wilderness off-leash intuition and obedience, though. Like off the charts. 

So here I am. In my experience with my GSD now, I know that I want to find a "line" or what not that produces those qualities I love about my dog, and add in a higher drive for scent and tracking. Buggi has a great schnoz. Just lacks the drive. 

I just wasn't sure if his lack of confidence (which is prevalent in much of how he interacts day-to-day excluding his "pack environment") was due to line breeding, hence why I want to know more about it vs. out-breeding. 




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## Buggibub (Jul 1, 2010)

Chris Wild said:


> The numbers refer to the generation that has the dog in common, sire's side listed first. So a dog linebred 3-4 on Dog X has X in the 3rd generation on the sire's side and 4th on the dam's side.


So at 5,5, is it generally safe to say any immediate inbreeding concerns would be null and void?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Not really. If the dog linebred on is ALSO linebred....now you have backmassing. Say a dog is 5-5 on "Bob", but "Bob" is 2,3-3,4 on "Duke" (ok I don't even know if that is possible but you get the idea...). 5,5 might not look like much but do you want ALL that "Duke"?


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## Buggibub (Jul 1, 2010)

This just got confusing. I think I need a visual aid.

I didn't do so hot with Mendelian biology. 


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## Buggibub (Jul 1, 2010)

I want to learn soooo badly about this stuff. Now I am royally confused.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

And you know as much as many breeders....lol, the key to this thing, IMO, is first understanding the concepts of breeding, outcross, line/inbreeding, combining/recombining of genetic traits. There are decent breeders who understand these principles, but the outstanding breeders also know the traits and tendencies of the dogs in the pedigree both the linebred ones and isolated ones. This is where a lot of well intentioned breeders fall down. Without knowing more than the names of the dogs in the pedigree, it becomes difficult to balance out the pluses/negatives in the breeding, jmo!.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Buggibub said:


> In my experience with my GSD now, I know that I want to find a "line" or what not that produces those qualities I love about my dog, and add in a higher drive for scent and tracking. Buggi has a great schnoz. Just lacks the drive.


It sounds like you're basically where I am, except swap out "scent and tracking" for "competition obedience and maybe a little IPO." 

I know what I love about my dog and what I want to have more of in my next dog, and I also know where I've had problems with him and what I'd like to avoid. I _don't_ know how to read a pedigree and go "oh yes this litter will make excellent UDX prospects with a motivational trainer, and also will not eat all the other dogs and/or crazy people in my neighborhood and cause my friends to hate me." And honestly, much as I love reading about this stuff, I don't figure I'll be getting to that point anytime soon.

So... I too am a fellow traveler on the search to scrounge up knowledge, and glad to have all I can get. But if I were in your shoes, I'd talk to SAR people who run GSDs and find out where they got their dogs, and what they specifically looked for in the pedigrees or breeding programs, and then talk to their breeders and maybe post a couple of prospective litter pedigrees up on this board and see what people say. I think that probably works as an effective shortcut if the end purpose is mainly "where do I get my next dog?"


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## Buggibub (Jul 1, 2010)

For example, here's Kiebetzende's breeding page.

I've never seen it broken down like this, because frankly, not a lot of breeders put it out there.

Is there a way to explain what the line breeding means and how to tell what is more line vs inbred?


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## Buggibub (Jul 1, 2010)

strictly from a learning perspective, i don't want to start a bash-thread lol.


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## Buggibub (Jul 1, 2010)

Merciel said:


> It sounds like you're basically where I am, except swap out "scent and tracking" for "competition obedience and maybe a little IPO."
> 
> I know what I love about my dog and what I want to have more of in my next dog, and I also know where I've had problems with him and what I'd like to avoid. I _don't_ know how to read a pedigree and go "oh yes this litter will make excellent UDX prospects with a motivational trainer, and also will not eat all the other dogs and/or crazy people in my neighborhood and cause my friends to hate me." And honestly, much as I love reading about this stuff, I don't figure I'll be getting to that point anytime soon.
> 
> So... I too am a fellow traveler on the search to scrounge up knowledge, and glad to have all I can get. But if I were in your shoes, I'd talk to SAR people who run GSDs and find out where they got their dogs, and what they specifically looked for in the pedigrees or breeding programs, and then talk to their breeders and maybe post a couple of prospective litter pedigrees up on this board and see what people say. I think that probably works as an effective shortcut if the end purpose is mainly "where do I get my next dog?"


It is a bit of answering that "where to get" question combined with my passion for science and always wanting to know "but why?" mixed with my obsession with the GSD breed that started when I got Buggi. 




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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I don't see anything on that website that is unusual or not typically listed when one is looking at pedigrees. 

I'm not quite following what the question is but will try to sum up what I think you might be asking....
All the numbers and names refer to is common ancestry in pedigrees. That's it. Lower numbers mean the dog is closer up. Larger numbers mean the dog is further back. Multiple numbers, like 3,4-4,5 mean that the dog is represented more than once on each side. In that example the dog is in the 3rd and 4th generation on the sire's side, and 4th and 5th on the dam's side.

Whether any of that is good or bad you can't tell from just looking at the numbers and the dogs. You have to know what they mean in terms of what traits that particular dog brought to the table.

Linebreeding is typically only calculated back to 5 generations. After the 5th generation linebreeding is no longer calculated. So you won't see numbers greater than 5.

That doesn't mean that a common ancestor can't exist farther back. It certainly can. There are some pedigrees where a linebreeding calculation would read "none" because there aren't any common ancestors in the first 5 generations. But if you go to PDB or other similar resources and run the pedigree back further, say to the 7th or 8th generation, you may see the same dog multiple times. This is referred to as "backmassing". If a litter is heavily backmassed on a dog many generations back, even though it doesn't show up as linebreeding, there is still going to be a lot of genetic material coming from that dog and a high COI (co-efficient of inbreeding). So you can't just look at linebreeding numbers to know how genetically diverse or narrow a particular dog or breeding is. Backmassing has to be considered as well. That was what Lies was talking about with Bob and Duke.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

That's a really neat link, thank you for posting it!

The Pedigree Database combinations that people frequently post will usually say if there's a linebreeding. I don't know how accurate it is, or whether it's something that's automatically generated (probably more accurate, if so) or has to be entered by the user (subject to human error, in that case), but either way, it's usually included.

I haven't seen a list like this before though where you can see the history over time. That's pretty nifty, even if the subtler implications escape me. I recognize some of the names from past threads, though. 

As far as distinguishing line-breeding from in-breeding, I think that was answered a little earlier in the thread. You can tell by the numbers.

I suspect you'd have to rely on your own knowledge or other sources (i.e., a fuller pedigree chart with more generations shown) to determine if there was backmassing.


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## Buggibub (Jul 1, 2010)

But at what point is it no longer considered line breeding? 6,6 or 7,7, etc...


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## Buggibub (Jul 1, 2010)

Well, no longer "in breeding" I should say. 

One post said 4 generations back minimum, then liesje said 5 is still iffy... 


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Calculating linebreeding stops at 5.
Past that is it referred to as backmassing, but will not show up on a linebreeding list such as the one shown on the website or PDB.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Technically, it is ALL inbreeding. Inbreeding simply refers to common ancestry. Since it does have a negative connotation to many people, the term linebreeding is more often used unless it is very close. Parent/offspring, brother/sister, etc.. is still commonly called inbreeding whereas linebreeding refers to relations that are a bit more remote.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Chris Wild said:


> I don't see anything on that website that is unusual or not typically listed when one is looking at pedigrees.


What I think is so cool about it is that the information is grouped together in a way that makes it more easily read-able by someone like me who doesn't know very much. 

Like for example I can see that the "K litter" produced some very successful progeny but was a total outcross. Now, probably some of that is due to luck in placing puppies in homes that could bring out their full potential, and it doesn't say how many puppies were in the litter and _didn't_ do anything particularly noteworthy... but still, to me that looks like a strong indicator that the outcross was successful, and there's something in that combination that the breeder knew would be good.

It's not really that the information itself is so unique as that seeing it organized in that fashion, with the back-and-forth history of linebreedings and outcrossings and what each litter produced, which ones the breeder decided to repeat (Yoschy, Fero, Gildo) and which they didn't, is pretty neat. It's all right there in one place. And if I knew more, I'd probably be able to get a lot more out of it.


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## Buggibub (Jul 1, 2010)

Chris Wild said:


> I don't see anything on that website that is unusual or not typically listed when one is looking at pedigrees.
> 
> I'm not quite following what the question is but will try to sum up what I think you might be asking....
> All the numbers and names refer to is common ancestry in pedigrees. That's it. Lower numbers mean the dog is closer up. Larger numbers mean the dog is further back. Multiple numbers, like 3,4-4,5 mean that the dog is represented more than once on each side. In that example the dog is in the 3rd and 4th generation on the sire's side, and 4th and 5th on the dam's side.
> ...


Ugh the iPhone app lags and I missed this post. 

Now I get what you're saying and it all makes sense. 




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## jmdjack (Oct 2, 2009)

I am not an expert and not a breeder - just a guy who has killed more than few hours researching and trying to educate myself about this stuff. I have no desire to breed, but find bloodlines and breeding fascinating. Listen to Chris Wild and Cliff. In the abstract, as Chris Wild noted, linebreeding is just numbers - how many times a particular dog appears in a five generation pedigree. The existence of linebreeding tells you nothing without knowing about the dogs being linebred upon. Even then, focusing on the dogs who are linebred upon without considering everything else in the pedigree is likely not going to give you an accurate picture of the dog as there are many other dogs in the pedigree. 

As for backmassing, the Pedigree Database now has a tab you can click on to go back 8 generations for linebreeding. It is much easier to get an idea of backmassing using this function. 

There are differing views on linebreeding and backmassing. My view on linebreeding and/or backmassing depends upon selection and degree. For me, linebreeding and backmassing can be a big positive depending on the dogs. Likewise, it can be a big negative depending on the dogs. Moreover, I do not view an "open" pedigree as inherently good and do not think every good dog should be linebred upon.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Here's a good post on linebreeding from a breeder of working Golden Retrievers: Understanding Pedigrees - Golden Retrievers : Golden Retriever Dog Forums

Different breed, of course, but I found it helpful in getting a handle on some of these things.


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## Buggibub (Jul 1, 2010)

Wow that's a really good, detailed description of everything on that GR thread. 

From a numbers standpoint, the 5th generation will only have 3.125% of the original sire/dam blood if it isn't crossed with another relative. 

In breeding terms, that's what, 10-12 years from original breeding?


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