# Am I crazy?



## jenniecc (Jul 29, 2012)

I am the owner of a fear aggressive puppy that I bought at 14 weeks. He is now just shy of 10 months old and has bitten my 23 year old stepdaughter. We were told the dog was well socialized, but after communicating with the breeder shortly after purchasing him( within a month) it turns out he was not. It's a complicated situation but after working with 2 different trainers, a behaviorist and constant obedience training since we brought him home, we have decided he needs to be rehomed. 

I have made the breeder aware of all these issues since we got him. She has told me that she sold his mom because my dog and another puppy had these issues although she claims the other puppy has recovered enough to adapt to family life. My beautiful boy has not and with my two children( ages 10&12- old enough to follow the rules and he has been great with them) having friends in and out of the house all the time-I can't keep everyone safe all the time. He is unpredictable with his aggression-he can seem to be ok with a person then several minutes lunge bark and snap. And now he has bitten. 

I have asked the breeder I take him back and I would like a replacement puppy. I feel that she misrepresented him as being well socialized-I knew the importance of this in any dogs but shepherds especially- and that this is a genetic issue that although they didn't plan on it happening. My dog just got all the worst traits from his parents. They have refused so far to do this. 

Am I wrong in feeling they should? My contract states that I have a 5 yr health guarantee that covers genetic issues that prevent the dog from living a normal life. I believe this qualifies. She has offered me another puppy at half price. I paid 2000.00 for him. Am I wrong to think she is responsible for doing more? Now I am trying to search for a good home for him, the behaviorist tells me he would fail any temperment test at a shelter. I couldn't drop him at a shelter anyway. I do love him but I can't manage his issues. I would love some feedback on whether I'm asking for too much and if anyone has had an experience with this. I have spoken to an attorney and he does believe I have a case but I hate to go that route. The dog was purchased to be a running partner for me as we'll as a family pet. His issues with both dogs and people will likely prevent that from ever happening.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Really tought position your in. I do not have experience with aggressive dogs...so my only advice is to ditch the breeder you got your pup from...lessoned learned & move on. Would you really want another puppy from them anyway if they offered one for free? Genetics rule and some dogs no matter how much we socialize them will be difficult to manage.


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## VanBuren shepherds (Dec 3, 2012)

To make the contract stand you would have to have medical proof and/or testimony from a Vet. Or a behavioral specialist.
Sounds like if the breeder sold the mother because of this problem then they are not an experienced breeder. 
Granted sometimes genetic defects are not always apparent, any GSD that is bred should be of the greatest health standard and temperament or they should not be breed. Do you know what litter this was for the breeder and the dam?
I personally would not take another pup from the breeder. 
Did the contract state that the dog was being sold as an excellent companion dog or something like that?
A dog that is timid or reacts out of fear is an unstable dog. It's best to protect the children. It sounds like you've sought expert advice and I would do what they say, but forget about the breeder!


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## VanBuren shepherds (Dec 3, 2012)

At least the breeder admitted it was a problem they've had with the litter. That's a positive!


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## FrankieC (Aug 15, 2012)

VanBuren shepherds said:


> At least the breeder admitted it was a problem they've had with the litter. That's a positive!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App





> *We were told the dog was well socialized, but after communicating with the breeder shortly after purchasing him( within a month) it turns out he was not.*


Full disclosure and a more proactive approach would have been far more positive and the responsible thing to do. Likewise, I would move on from this breeder.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Unfortunately I've never seen a contract that guarantees temperament.


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## VanBuren shepherds (Dec 3, 2012)

The price being $200.00 tells me that these aren't from a quality bloodline. Sometimes you get what you pay for. I know to some people $200.00 is a lot of money for a dog, but when you look for quality it will cost a lot more then that. 
I find it strange that the breeder would guarantee health for 5 years! When obviously there is a problem with the bloodline. Are they even AKC? If so there are standards that need to be met.
Were you able to see any hip ratings or health records for parents? Is there a pedigree available I could look at or what kind of bloodline? Do you know the age of the parents? 


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## VanBuren shepherds (Dec 3, 2012)

Agreed FrankieC


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I read $2000. The health guarantee looks good but unfortunately I don't see how that part of the contract can be used unless the dog has a genetic medical issue causing the instability in the temperament (thyroid, seizures, etc) but it might cost you upwards of $2K just to do all those tests.


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## VanBuren shepherds (Dec 3, 2012)

You're right I miss read. $2000.00. Yeah you should have got a pretty nice pup for that price! Sorry for trouble you've had!


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## GrammaD (Jan 1, 2012)

I would take the puppy back to the breeder and walk away. 

Then I would talk to breeders from this forum and put out feelers for a more mature dog with a known stable temperament who a reputable and ethical breeder has decided to make a pet placement. 

I am so sorry for you and your family  What a horrible experience. But I commend you for all the effort you put into your puppy.


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## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

I would not rehome this dog to someone else, it is just passing on a genetic problem that MAY be able to be managed, maybe not. As this dog has already bitten, it is a liability. Think of what is fair for the dog, not what is easiest for you. Did the trainers say it could be desensitized and managed? Or was it mostly just going to be managed with a muzzle and isolation?

I agree, do not get another dog from this breeder. Chalk it up to a life experience (an expensive one) and move on. If you would like another German Shepherd, start doing some reasearch and find a well known breeder who has clients who can tell you their experiences with the dogs and the breeder first hand. Learn what to look for and get the dog your family needs.

I am sorry this pup did not work out, it is not your fault, nor the dogs. It is what it is, and I commend you for being responsible enough to be honest about your dog.


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## Marnie (Oct 11, 2011)

This is not meant as a criticism but we all make mistakes and mistakes all have consequences. The dog's temperament could be due to lack of socialization either with the breeder or with you. You have had him quite a while so probably with you. I don't see how anyone could determine the absolute cause and award in a legal case. Place the dog in an experienced GSD home with no children or better yet with breed rescue who can better determine his temperament. You can only do the best you can. You can advertise him on this list if I’m not mistaken. If I lived closer I would work with him and with you because he is far from a lost cause and can go on to make someone a good pet.. Children in a home always come first and right now the dog is unpredictable. I hope this turns out well for the dog and I hate that you lost so much money and that you must give up a dog you are attached to.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Disagree, we can't blame this on the OP. The dog's temperament is what it is, breeders should not have to extensively socialize every dog for people to get a nice dog that doesn't bite kids. The dog could do well placed in a home with no kids but I doubt a rescue will help with this. As a GSD owner and trainer I personally would never accept a foster with a bite history at 10 months, and I get some pretty rowdy foster dogs.

IMO the dog is what it is. Unfortunately the OP got a bad egg. Sounds like the breeder has culled the breeding dog from the program so that's good to hear.


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## VanBuren shepherds (Dec 3, 2012)

The dog might work for an individual who is single and without children. It's not the most exciting life for a GSD, but it might be the best opportunity for them to have a long healthy life.
I'm sure everyone here will agree that our GSD's are our babies, and we only want the best for them, but sometimes our lifestyles or environments are not the best for them.
Can I ask a personal question? Did something occur for the dog to bite, or was it just a sudden reaction the dog had towards them? Either way biting can not be allowed, but it can help us to understand what the baby is thinking and how we can help him to make better choices. If he's suffering from a lack of confidence we can work on that. If he is just reacting out of fear there could be some steps taken. 
How is his obedience training otherwise? I know he is still a pup and there is plenty of time to still correct this! Don't give up, but make sure everyone is safe at all times with him! 


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Before I did anything with this poor dog, I would:

- Have a thyroid test done - costs between $80-180 probably depending on where you are at. 

- I would look for a veterinary teaching school that had a vet behaviorist or try the Tufft's VetFax/PetFax program through their behavioral school and Dr. Dodman: About Tufts Animal Behavior Clinic : Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine

- If the complete thyroid test proved to be normal in all senses of the word, their recommendation agreed with others' you have gotten, I would ask the breeder what her plans were if he were to return there.

Sometimes dogs are bad fits for different people and situations - and show themselves to do extremely well in different environments that provide whatever it is they need (if there is a need that can be met - cannot always be the case). While this could be the case with your dog, he now has that dreaded bite, that should not/can not be passed along. What were the circumstances of that bite? 

As for the breeder, the money, the replacement puppy, I would totally walk away. The relationship with the breeder is stressed, there is no guarantee really with a living thing (and a lawyers fee would put you up how much?), and I would worry that some concerns would be passed down the leash to a puppy from that same breeder. 

We don't know you, your experience with the breed, or the dog, but thanks for trying to help him. He at least has an advocate and that is helpful.


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## VanBuren shepherds (Dec 3, 2012)

Marine,I agree that it probably is from not being socialized properly. If that's the case it's time to take steps to improve that. Socialization is the key, but it will have to be in a completely controlled situation. Before we move on with socialization you might want to introduce a muzzle for the exercises. 
Better to be safe then sorry!


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## GrammaD (Jan 1, 2012)

IMO- when a breeder culls a bitch from her breeding program because she has produced unstable temperaments (this is not the only affected puppy) it is a genetic issue. Intensive management practices may allow the dog to be "safe" in certain environments. But this goes beyond improper socialization. Besides, the OP has been working with this dog so I don't think that is a fair assessment of the situation anyway.


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## jenniecc (Jul 29, 2012)

What happened with the bite is this....my stepdaughter was dropping my two children off after spending some time with them. She came in-we have gates that keep the dog separated into the main living areas of our home but block his access to the doors at the front of the house. She came in and was on the opposite side of the gate. My daughter (12) was on the side of the gate with the dog giving him treats. After the first bark when they came in( expected and acceptable) he took the treats and appeared to be fine. Several minutes went by. My stepdaughters hand was on the gate-he suddenly lunged towards her barking aggressively and bit her hand. She wasn't moving towards him or attempting to enter his area. Se wasn't even looking right at him. 

The other instances that have happened have been similar-although he had only snapped and barked and lunged. There have been more instances of similar behavior outside the house with my neighbors etc. I have had the dog out socializing him at least 3x a week since bringing him home. W have gone everywhere possible. I don't allow people to pet him or ask him to greet anyone. I am ok with a dog who doesn't want affection from strangers. I am not okay with a dog who is so unpredictable for me. Could someone be successful with him? Probably. But he's not safe at this point to be in a family situation and that was my whole purpose in getting a dog. Up until this point, I had nothing but good things to say about the breeder. I have probably 100 emails going back and forth between us since I bought him. I have gotten outside professional help when it was clear I was in over my head. 

My position is this, I was sold a dog that I was told would be a good family dog and that was socialized during the most critical period. The breeder now herself admits that didn't happen and that my dog probably wouldn't have had all the issues he has if it had been. I feel she should bear at least some responsibility for how things turned out and stand behind her dog. So far, she hasn't and I'm pretty angry about it. I realize that breeding isn't an exact science and that sometimes things go wrong. I'm just not sure why she feels I should be financially responsible for something that wasn't in my control.

I have done a lot of reading on this forum and others and without a doubt I have found that ethical responsible breeders will take a dog back no matter what. She has indicated she will if I drive the dog to her out of state location-not the location that I purchased him which is about a 20 min drive from my house. This is a mother-daughter breeder situation with two locations. The one she claims I can bring the dog to is about a 13 hour drive each way. Doesn't seem right or fair to me.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

GrammaD said:


> IMO- when a breeder culls a bitch from her breeding program because she has produced unstable temperaments (this is not the only affected puppy) it is a genetic issue. Intensive management practices may allow the dog to be "safe" in certain environments. But this goes beyond improper socialization. Besides, the OP has been working with this dog so I don't think that is a fair assessment of the situation anyway.



Agreed. One should not have to muzzle a dog in order to get a nice tempered dog, especially for $2000!


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

OP this is a long shot...but I looked at your previous thread. Is it possible your boy is in pain?

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/health-issues/190637-elbow-dysplasia-pano.html


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## jenniecc (Jul 29, 2012)

And I do LOVE this dog. I readily admit that I am not an experienced german shepherd dog owner. He is my first, although my parents had one while I was growing up. I knew a lot about the breed and did extensive research before buying him. The reason we went with this breeder was because we believed we were getting a high quality dog. I knew there would be a lot of training. I had him in puppy class within 2 weeks of getting him home. We have been in constant training since then. He passed basic obedience although we took it twice to work on his issues with other dogs. After the first lunge, bark snap incident I brought 
in a behaviorist who has extensive experience with shepherds. He worked with me for several weeks. The bite incident took place after all this. I feel that I have done what I can do for him. This is not a dog purchased on a whim then thrown in the backyard. At his puppy class(not a Petsmart training class) the trainer indicated he was the most sensitive and fearful shepherd she had come across. At his first obedience class( different facility that had more experience with shepherds) the very shepherd experienced trainer believed she would have been bitten by my dog if she hadn't known how to react. Because she wanted to stand behind him at a distance of about 8 feet. He has improved from that point in certain situations but I don't think he will ever improve enough to be trusted in a family situation.


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## VanBuren shepherds (Dec 3, 2012)

The breeder is causing a lot of trouble for you, and I'm sorry for that. It is a breeders responsibility to socialize their litters to a certain extent. If you want to keep the dog there is some tough decisions that has to be made. No you shouldn't have to resort to a muzzle for protection during training, but in some cases you do. It depends on how much you want to try with this dog and the risk of keeping them. 
I don't think there is anything anyone here that can tell you what you don't already know about the dangers your family can face. 
The breeder admits to not socializing the pups the way they said and that could be a part of the problem, but I don't think it is the main problem or the breeder would not have removed the dam from the program.



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## jenniecc (Jul 29, 2012)

Not in pain that anyone has been able to diagnosis. I have had him to vet. Not ED. The only symptom of thyroid issues is the aggression. He tried to bite the vet too but I understand that isn't uncommon. Vet doesn't believe it's medically related. His elbows are no longer swollen and he doesn't limp or favor any limb.


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## VanBuren shepherds (Dec 3, 2012)

Having a GSD that you don't trust is not a situation that anyone wants to be in. 
I support you if you have to make a tough decision to protect your family, but I speak with experience. You will always worry if there was something else you could have done. Hopefully everyone will be here to help you through whatever occurs!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Yes, VBS - exactly why I suggested a vet teaching hospital - vets misdiagnose enough (especially with Pano and related ortho issues) to make it a thing where I would get a second opinion, get a thyroid panel done, see the vet behaviorist, etc, because of that worry that there was something missed, something that could have been done. 

Even if the end result is still the same - you know you've done it all. I still have regrets from a foster dog years ago who could be viciously aggressive with other dogs and consistently snappy with people - I did not know about the thyroid. It might not have changed things, but I wish I would have known to have that panel run.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Marnie I'll just say I completely disagree and leave it at that. You're welcome to that opinion. As far as looking into the crystal ball I am not the one that claimed the OP was responsible for creating this dog's problems. If the OP dropped the ball with regard to socialization please point out the mistake...as far as I can tell she has gone above and beyond what most people do with a normal, well-adjusted dog (and I don't think she owes us an explanation anyway).


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## jenniecc (Jul 29, 2012)

I have had the dog long enough to know that his issues are NOT my fault. I have done everything a normal person can do and more to try and work things out with him. I have spent well over the original purchase price working with trainers and a behaviorist with ALOT more experience that I. I have followed everyone's advice to the letter in regards to helping him overcome his fear. Correcting him into submission isn't the answer as that will not change his fear-it will always be there. If I overcorrect him I could just train him to not give any warning signals at all. And then where will I be? All my research has pointed me in the direction that his fearfulness is who he is. I know that my family situation is not the right one to keep people safe. I will not send him to a shelter as the behaviorist has indicated that he would not pass a temperament test. A far as whether or not temperament is set in stone, I disagree. I think some dogs are just born the way they are. I don't think everything can be "fixed". Managed? Probably but not by the average person. She didn't sell this dog to a professional dog handler. She sold him to a mom, dad and their 2 children.


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## KRIS82 (Oct 4, 2012)

Jennie- Please PM me. Are you looking to rehome this dog?


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

jenniecc- you certainly don't have to plea your case to any of us. I believe you were very forthcoming with your experience with your boy. I strongly believe this is not your fault. Some dogs are just wired different...no amount of socialization is going to fix the core of who the dog is...just my novice opinion. Although I do keep going back to Jean's post and always wonder if there's an underlying health issue....thyroid, tick disease all show signs of aggression.

You have done more than most owners would do. I wish you luck...you have not been dealt a easy hand


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

This kind of behaviour as described by the OP is not due to a lack of socialization but a basic temperament weakness. Absolutely no reason for a dog to bit unprovoked a person that was standing and not paying attention to it. A solid dog of good temperament shows good temperament even without extensive socialization. You can socialize a dog with a weak temperament to the nth degree, and it _may_ help _some_ but will not change the dog's basic temperament it was born with. 

That said, flukes happen: out of some solid breeding, there can be a pup with issues - not the breeder's fault, or the owner's fault. The question is how to deal with the situation. 

I'm not sure what advice to give the OP, I agree that you should return the pup, and I understand how hard that is to do - one does get attached! I'd try and work somekind of compromise out where the breeder and you may be able to meet half-way.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

First, let me make this clear that I would take the puppy back from you if I was the breeder....having said that I must admit that I deal with a lot of cases like yours and in probably 50% of the time it is not genetics with the dog but rather new owners to the breed, or the inability of the owners to deal with a strong dog. You have specified a fear aggressive dog, and if the trainer or behaviorist have diagnosed this....it could well be genetics. Question for you, is the dog Black and Tan?


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## Kdrees (Nov 25, 2012)

I totally understand what you are going through - we adopted a pointer from a rescue that ended up biting my daughter in the face twice. We hadn't had him but a few weeks and we took him back - the first bite may have been preventable but the 2nd one was completely out of left field. It was a hard decision that we had to make but our home was obviously not the right home for him - not to mention that I felt like the worst mother in the world..... I would contact a local gsd or large breed rescue in your area and see if they can help you.


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## Marnie (Oct 11, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Marnie I'll just say I completely disagree and leave it at that. You're welcome to that opinion. As far as looking into the crystal ball I am not the one that claimed the OP was responsible for creating this dog's problems. If the OP dropped the ball with regard to socialization please point out the mistake...as far as I can tell she has gone above and beyond what most people do with a normal, well-adjusted dog (and I don't think she owes us an explanation anyway).


** Uncalled for comment removed by ADMIN**

I had a 4-month border collie puppy turn on me like a piranha and give me the worst bites I ever got from a dog. Does anybody think it was the puppy's fault? Well it was not the dogs fault, it was totally my fault and I never made an excuse blaming the dog or the breeder. That dog lived with me for another 15-years and never, ever, ever bit anyone or anything else in her life. Bites can happen to almost anyone from almost any dog given the wrong set of circumstances. I cannot point to what the OP did to cause the bite. I probably could if I sat down with the OP and talked. But the odds are pretty good that the OP did cause it because there were no complaints of bad behavior when the dog first arrived from the breeder or until this incident. The breeder had the puppy for 14 weeks and the OP had the dog for what, 5 months or more. I'm absolutely not going to criticize the OP, she must do the best she can in a bad situation. If she has kids in her house, the dog needs to go somewhere else. That's a fact. The dog is not a BAD SEED. It is a case of the misunderstood dog in the wrong house. We can't expect the breeder to refund $2000 for the dog. If I was the breeder I would refund every cent and demand my dog back, but most breeders are not that concerned about what happens to their sold dogs. Bottom line, the dog deserves another chance and the OP deserves another chance to be happy with the right dog for that family. No point in telling any dog owner that there are random BAD SEED dogs out there and if they get one, run don't walk to the nearest pound and dump it. Everybody makes mistakes with their dogs and hopefully they can learn from their mistakes so they don't make them again. Excuses and denials are never constructive. 

And frankly, I'm very puzzled that anyone on a GSD list would think of blaming the dog without witnessing the event or at least knowing every single tiny fact of the dog's life.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Marnie said:


> The dog is what it is and it can easily be made into something else if it finds a trainer that believes in it.


If that were true, we'd be training Salukis to herd sheep, Maltese to hunt wild boar, and English Bulldogs to retrieve ducks from the water.

The reason we have different breeds with different temperaments is that TEMPERAMENT IS GENETIC. Otherwise, all breeds and every single dog would be a blank slate when born; there would be no such thing as breed temperament.

Sure, with training you can teach a dog many things. But you can't change genetics. The OP was sold a fearful puppy which is becoming a fear-aggressive adult, and it's not the OP's fault.

Honestly, I hate to say it, but this dog probably isn't adoptable by anyone but the most experienced owner. It will be hard to find that person, and I don't know if a rescue will take a dog with a bite history. Euthanasia would be a heartbreaking but responsible option if you cannot manage the dog and cannot find a proper home for him. I'm sorry.  I wish the breeder would step up and take responsibility for the life she created, but it sounds like that isn't going to happen.


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## jenniecc (Jul 29, 2012)

I appreciate everyone who has given me their opinion. I was looking for information and I got it. I agree that without meeting the dog and getting a blow by blow description of everything that I have done for the dog it's hard to make an informed decision. I know in my heart that I am not an irresponsible dog owner. I know that I have done what's possible for me to do to manage him. Do I believe that some dogs are just born with a wire crossed or something? Certainly I do. I believe the same about humans. Two fantastic parents can give birth to a serial killer. Not their fault-wired wrong. I don't blame the breeder for producing a faulty dog( and he is faulty-beautiful for sure and has lots of great qualities but unfortunately a lot of bad ones). I do however believe that I was sold a dog under false pretenses and had she been truthful with me about the dogs socialization, I would have chosen another dog. Iknow all the research about the importance of socialization and although I would never consider myself anything close to an expert, I ( and based on the breeders emails to me where she admits he could be a different dog had that taken place) asked the question about socialization and I didn't receive a truthful answer. So i feel taken advantage of. My original post was on whether or not an ethical breeder should take the dog back and should I be compensated in some way for it? As I stated my attorney has looked over all my documents and believes I have a pretty good case for fraud. I'm just trying to figure out if I should take it that far. Still not sure what I will do but I appreciate all the input.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I believe the breeder should take the dog back. Unfortunately I don't believe (based on the contract) she owes you any money but she owes it to the DOG to take him back. JMO


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## GrammaD (Jan 1, 2012)

I believe an ethical breeder would take the dog back but probably not refund any money but rather make an offer on another puppy from a different breeding.

I personally do not believe in throwing good money after bad so I wouldn't pursue legal recourse and frankly it would be a difficult case to make.

And I would also look elsewhere for another dog in the future and only after giving myself a good amount of time to process the events and make myself ready again. There should be trust between a breeder and a puppy buyer. IMO.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

If I was the breeder and being sued, this is what I'd say, "The breeder had the puppy for 14 weeks and the OP had the dog for what, 5 months or more." (typed by marnie)

I'd avoid this breeder completely unless compelled to return the dog to them.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Marnie said:


> We can't expect the breeder to refund $2000 for the dog. If I was the breeder I would refund every cent and demand my dog back, but most breeders are not that concerned about what happens to their sold dogs.


I never said that, I've consistently said I don't think contracts cover temperament and would not expect the breeder to refund (at best maybe offer another dog, but even that seems above and beyond the contract).



> Bottom line, the dog deserves another chance and the OP deserves another chance to be happy with the right dog for that family.


Unfortunately what dogs deserve and what is reality often don't line up. I have nothing against this dog, the OP, or the breeder but do you know anyone waiting in line to adopt a dog that the OP admits has a bite history and has to be carefully managed? I do rescue and I know my rescue would not take this dog. I could not foster this dog. It's hard enough getting healthy dogs with good nerves adopted. This is no one person or one dog's fault but it's just reality. Also the OP has to feel comfortable with the level of liability being passed on to someone else. I personally would not be comfortable rehoming this dog.



> And frankly, I'm very puzzled that anyone on a GSD list would think of blaming the dog without witnessing the event or at least knowing every single tiny fact of the dog's life.


Me too which is why I took an issue with your comment "You have had him quite a while so probably with you." Have YOU observed this dog? All we know is what the OP tells us which is that the dog has bitten and has to be managed. I can only assume she is telling the truth because why would someone lie about their dog acting negatively?


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## Marnie (Oct 11, 2011)

Freestep said:


> If that were true, we'd be training Salukis to herd sheep, Maltese to hunt wild boar, and English Bulldogs to retrieve ducks from the water.


Are there no dog trainers on this list??? With a comment like that, I'm certain you are not one. Foolishness is no more productive than denial or excuses. Man up people. Your own dog is what you make it. If you doubt that, send me the **** dog and I will make it a sheep herder, a retriever or whatever. Freestep, if you doubt yourself so much, goldens or collies are the breeds for you. They won't be so much of a challenge.


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## FrankieC (Aug 15, 2012)

Marnie said:


> Are there no dog trainers on this list??? With a comment like that, I'm certain you are not one. Foolishness is no more productive than denial or excuses. Man up people. Your own dog is what you make it. If you doubt that, send me the **** dog and I will make it a sheep herder, a retriever or whatever. Freestep, if you doubt yourself so much, goldens or collies are the breeds for you. They won't be so much of a challenge.


Wow! It's clear we should be greatful to be in your presence. I should have recognized that sooner. You obviously have insights and skills the rest of us could only dream of


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## VanBuren shepherds (Dec 3, 2012)

Well trying to help someone through a tough time has turned into an ugly bitch fest. I'm out of here. To the OP I hope the best for you and the dog!


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Enough of the nasty remarks. People ought to be able to disagree without insulting and belitting one another. 

-Admin


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I used to think I was a dog trainer...hehe....oh Well....to OP you could very well be a very responsible dog owner and this can happen....I see it all the time....or it could be genetics and lastly it could be a combination of genetics and novice owner though responsible.....no one is casting dispersions on you that really understands this breed.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I agree with Cliff. Yes, many problems are man made by owners, even well meaning ones. But just as often the problems are there from the start due to genetics. There definitely ARE dogs with genetically weak temperament and nothing will change that. They can be managed, but they cannot be fixed no matter how skilled the trainer or how much one might want to fix them.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

What have the trainers/behaviorist say about the dog? Has the dog been medically checked out?


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## jenniecc (Jul 29, 2012)

I am waiting on the official write up from the behaviorist. I will let you know what it says once I get. What I have been told by both him and the trainers I have used is that his fear is genetic. It can probably be improved from where he is now but will always need to be managed. The degree of management could vary. But at least for the foreseeable future he would need to be kept out of any and all contact with people outside our immediate family. I am not able to provide that on a consistent basis. I have two kids with friends in and out of the house all the time. I can't forbid my children from having kids over because the dog might bite. Not fair to them. I have a fenced in yard but he has to be supervised all the time because I am certain he could jump the fence. He already did once and scared my neighbor. So I can't leave him outside while kids are over because then who is watching the kids? We have a crate that we are using short term, but I don't believe it's a long term option because for one, its no life for a dog and two-what happens when I'm not in the same room and one of the kids or friends let him out cause he looks so cute? Maybe nothing, maybe a bite. The consensus seems to be that the breeder should take him back but that I probably shouldn't receive any compensation for him. Not sure I agree with that but I am grateful for the info. This is my first experience buying a purebred dog from a breeder and I was looking for some guidance. Now I just wait to hear back from her.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

OK, here are my two cents as a dog trainer. To answer your first question: no you are not crazy, this is not your fault!
By now your dog is is who he is at this age. At this young age it will only get worse in unexperienced hands, so let's be realistic and look at his options:
1. Returned to the breeder who may sell him to another trusting potential adopter or put him down.
2. Re-homing the dog yourself with the risk that in a few weeks someone stands on your doorstep because he seriously hurt someone else.
3. Finding a home that is willing to work with an unstable dog. Where in the world would you find someone like that who is not a hoarder? Let me speak to you from my personal experience:
Years ago I fostered a litter for the shelter . The mother of the litter was an aggressive dog. I kept her away from he litter when we had visitors so the pups wouldn't learn that from her. At 7 months old one pup was returned as the shelter completely had disregarded my advice for each pup's ideal home. This pup had bitten their child in the face. I took her back, thinking I could work with this dog. My own dogs were afraid of her, she failed the temp. test with an animal behaviorist and me. So I made the toughest decision to put her down, to prevent her from a life of abandonment in a back yard somewhere, abuse and going from shelter to hoe to shelter, ending in her death anyway.
It was heart wrenching but I did it because I loved her, I kept her safe. No one could hurt this dog anymore.
So in your case, if you can legally(contract-wise) do it, I would do the same if, after giving it your all, you cannot guarantee a safe home for him.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

There is one more option ...

#4. Give your dog a wonderful day then take the dog into your vet and have him put down.

Personally, I believe that fearful dogs are NOT happy with life. Why do we feel it's better to make them go through life with their fear than to end it humanely?

I had a puppy from one of my litters that was terminally fearful. No matter what I tried she was afraid of everything. Just going out in our back yard was torture for her because the neighbors kids might be outside yelling and playing.

I decided it was better for her to stop living a life of fear - and that meant that she had to stop living.

Harsh, cold, not a popular decision but it was what was best for HER.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I think it is sad that people who have never met this dog are recommending euthanasia over the internet. The dog deserves in-person evaluation before a death sentence is declared. Some of the "behaviorists" and "trainers" I met should never be allowed near a dog, without having full knowledge of the situation it is simply wrong to encourage killing the dog.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I agree with Rebel. it is irresponsible to recommend euthanizing this dog without ever having met him. I had a dog who was genetically fearful and fear aggressive. In the 5 months I had him (he unfortunately died very young in a tragic accident) he improved a lot. It can be done but it takes the right person and also the right home situation.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

There are many fearful dogs out there that do beautifully with their families and are loving companions to the people they know. They live within their limitations and do not necessarily miss group outings and social gatherings.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

RebelGSD said:


> I think it is sad that people who have never met this dog are recommending euthanasia over the internet. The dog deserves in-person evaluation before a death sentence is declared. Some of the "behaviorists" and "trainers" I met should never be allowed near a dog, without having full knowledge of the situation it is simply wrong to encourage killing the dog.





BowWowMeow said:


> I agree with Rebel. it is irresponsible to recommend euthanizing this dog without ever having met him. I had a dog who was genetically fearful and fear aggressive. In the 5 months I had him (he unfortunately died very young in a tragic accident) he improved a lot. It can be done but it takes the right person and also the right home situation.


Did you read my post completely? Here is the bottom line of that post, in bold: "So in your case, if you can legally(contract-wise) do it, I would do the same if,_* after giving it your all, you cannot guarantee a safe home for him." 
*_Taking it out of context results in the problematic conversations that we sometimes see.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I have a dog much like the one jenniecc describes(though she has never bitten, due to my diligent management)
With maturity & my learning how to deal with her she is ok...but I can never, ever have her around young children, she is really reactive around anyone younger than 10 or so. 

This is the crux of the issue here....children should be able to have friends over without everyone worrying about where the dog is, can he get out.
If he somehow got out of his containment, he would probably act out, and that would mean he's been failed and rainbow bridge is the future. 
Too bad the breeder isn't more helpful... As far as my dogs breeder, there is no way I'd let Onyx go back to her, it wouldn't be fair to Onyx. 
Onyx is not what I'd call fearful now that she's matured, she just loves to be a bully and will get involved in anything where she can act up aggressively. I make her keep a ball in her mouth whenever there is outdoor play or excitement, 'get your ball' is my mantra with her.
10 month to about 18 months were Onyx's worst times of reactivity. If you are willing to deal with the next year, it may smooth out as your boy matures.
Muzzle would be my choice if you really think your dog is a danger to the kids. 
I am interested in reading your behaviorists evaluation.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

In the thread there are numerous encouragements to kill the dog.
IMO reputable trainers will evaluate an animal in person before recommending euthanasia (as opposed to doing it based on a couple of paragraphs posted on line).


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@ Wolfy Dog....your last sentence is a fairly common occurrence here!.....I understood what you meant and did not think you were promoting euthanasia, nor have a read in this thread a call for PTS....anyone that is not aware of all options is limiting themself.......of course I am just reading this from a non emotional POV, as I have found myself to make flawed decisions from emotions and I think emotional advice is often flawed also...hopefully this works out well for the owner and the dog.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I think a lot of options were suggested -if it was me I would have the dog medically checked out as Jean suggested go to a behaviorist-if I felt the breeder would take proper care of the dog and I was unable to manage the dog I would return him/her...and if that all failed I would euthansize the dog-there are a lot of dogs in shelters that have wonderful temperments-


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I have a human aggressive Boxer. It is management. There are solutions for your dog to live a life of quality time with your family, though it's not the life you would want your dog to have. Luckily, Banshee loved kids so we had no issues with kids coming and going from the house. I wish you the best in this. I speak from experience when I say managing a human aggressive dog is not easy and it's not a choice everyone makes. Banshee was never aggressive to anyone in the family or children. Had she been, we would have made a different choice.

First, you must ALWAYS be on your guard. You don't ever just open the door to someone. You stop, put the dog on a leash or in a crate. Have a bag of treats close to the door so the person can treat the dog. It helped with Banshee and she would often accept the person after awhile, at least enough to lay next to us still leashed.

You should consider installing a kennel in your yard that he can't go over and can't dig under. This will allow a safe place for him when people are over. A crate in a quiet room may or may not work but is worth a try. Banshee always knew when someone was in the house and she would carry on from the other room.

It's ALL about management. Get the medical work up, talk to a behaviorist, have him evaluated, create a management plan. Maybe look into supplements such as springtimeinc's Stress Free chewable to help bring down his anxiety. Think about changing foods to something with lower sugars.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I think the OP has already got a taste of the management involved and the question is whether that is even possible? I agree with Jane, the issue here is that the OP can manage her dog all day long but she cannot prevent "strangers" (kids' friends) from being in her house and cannot 100% control what they do. A locked kennel would work but then it becomes a quality of life issue for the dog....really only the OP can know and decide what is best but it looks like every possibility has been mentioned several times.

I have a similar issue at my house. It's not like we have people over constantly, but I have good friends with kids, my husband brings his friends over (sometimes they have kids), my sister and other family members come and go often without announcing themselves. I have zero tolerance for a dog that is unpredictable not because I think it's a bad dog or couldn't be managed but _it just doesn't work in our household_ and the amount of diligence it takes to manage a dog like that causes way too much stress for me, the dog, the other dogs, and everyone else.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I guess it's all been said and nobody else should post...even those with 13 years experience of managing the exact issue.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Easy...I was not responding do you (I was responding to Jane, hadn't read the whole page).


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## Remo (Sep 8, 2004)

Chris wrote the statement below and I could not agree more! I have an adopted dog who spent the first 1 1/2 years of her life isolated in a darkened garage. No socialization with dogs or people. And probably a genetic nightmare too! We have had her in our lives for about 2 1/2 years now. Originally she was terrified of other dogs, even an eight week old puppy. Now she is pretty good with other dogs, but still terrified of people outside of her immediate family. I have rehabbed hundreds of dogs (and some of them were extreme challenges) over the last 20 years and this one simply cannot be fixed, she has to be managed. She is safe and happy with us. On the rare occasion that we have visitors, I have to watch her every move - she is famous for trying to bite people in the butt. We tried socializing and attending classes for fearful dogs - she goes into her own little zone and cannot be reached. No amount of bribes, clicks, threats, no amount of ANYTHING can reach her when she gets into crazy zone. Her fears shut her down. We walk her in the woods and away from places where we will encounter other people/dogs. This is a lifestyle with her that we have chosen to accept - most folks would not put up with our crazy girl. We do not have kids so that makes our decision a lot easier than a situation where someone does have kids and lots of visitors. 


I agree with Cliff. Yes, many problems are man made by owners, even well meaning ones. But just as often the problems are there from the start due to genetics. There definitely ARE dogs with genetically weak temperament and nothing will change that. They can be managed, but they cannot be fixed no matter how skilled the trainer or how much one might want to fix them.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Rebel, nobody has "encouraged killing the dog". Not one person. All anyone has said that _if_ all options are eventually exhausted, it is something to consider. Rehoming this dog would be pretty much impossible and would in all likelihood be irresponsible. Extreme management is sometimes not an option, especially in a family setting...and if a behaviorist says that is what is necessary, there are other alternatives. No one has said "I think he should be put down right now!" or "this dog will never be saved! Kill it!" 

It has only been suggested (in the extreme worst case), because many people can't fathom euthanasia being an option and feel like they would be failing the dog, when in fact, _if_ all other options have been exhausted, it is probably the kindest thing they could do. All of it was said with the large "IF", IF management is impossible.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

_LoveEcho said:_


> Rehoming this dog would be pretty much impossible


Actually Marnie said she'd take the dog a few posts back, there's a solution)

Seriously, I agree a dog like this has to be managed, and it's a 24/7 job.. While my dogs are 'house dogs', I think just about any dog can live comfortably outside with the right situation and one where the dog is not just 'banished' outside. 

If he enjoys being out there to begin with, (I think the oP said he likes and is outside most of the time anyway)...You can always try it , I would jsut make sure no one outside the family has access to him, like your daughters friends..

I would not rehome him, he's been shuffled around enough.. Hope you find a solution that is safe for everyone


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think that sometimes we get too human in our thinking when it comes to dogs. A dog like this can be managed, but if there are little kids living in the home, then I don't think it should be considered. 

If there are grandchildren that come over sometimes, that is fine. 

This is just an option and my reason for it:

Not every dog is a social butterfly. Some dogs are shy. They do not want to go to dog parks, or dog shows, or pet stores, or training classes. They would be just as happy to chase a ball in the back yard and stay home ALL THE TIME. In that situation the dog is simply in its own element. 

Now, what is needed is a good solid secure kennel, preferably outside or with an outside section, within a securely fenced back yard. But having a secure kennel in a garage or basement would work as well. I guess ideally would be a kennel with a section in the back yard, a doggy door into a garage, and a 4x8 foot securely kenneled area in the garage. 

When one leaves for work in the morning, the dog goes into the kennel. When the person comes home in the evening, the dog comes into the house for some time. Exercise in the back yard, etc.

Whenever you are not there to focus on the dog, the dog is put in the kennel. Whenever you are going to have a stranger over, the dog is put in the kennel. No one is permitted to go out and bother the dog when it is in its kennel. If the grand children are over, the dog gets kenneled. 

It is certainly manageable for most households. But households with little kids living there, I would say no. Even if the dog is perfectly comfortable with the children in the home, children have friends over, and it is just too easy for an accident to happen. 

Children should not be prevented from having a normal childhood because of an aggressive dog. 

I am sorry the breeder was not more helpful. Why the dog is having this issue is really not as important as ensuring the dog not bite anyone else. Some dogs I guess are fearful forever. Some dogs seem to mature and become less reactive. If nothing else a breeder should be able to manage the dog as described above. But there is no guaranty that the breeder won't put such a dog down.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

:thumbup: Sue


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

VanBuren shepherds said:


> The dog might work for an individual who is single and without children. It's not the most exciting life for a GSD, but it might be the best opportunity for them to have a long healthy life.


 I think this situation would be the most exciting for the dog, actually. Or you think single people do not go anywhere, do not train, do not socialize, and everything has to evolve around children? 

Re original subject. You need to rehome the dog. If you have these thoughts now you need to rehome the dog asap before you start resenting and hating him. The 'trainers' and 'behaviorists' verdicts need to be taken with a grain of salt, regardless how much they charge. 

Putting the dog down before even trying to get in touch with a rescue/people who know GSD? Here are two examples of dogs that had to be put down and this decision would be supported on this board. One dog, over 2 yo, was 'abused, dog aggressive, snapped at children, roamed the neighborhood, muzzled when on public, had serious problems, free to good home or put down'. Well, this dog went to friends of mine after I met the dog, and he is now 'the best tempered and the sweetest GSD we have ever met." (quote from his new owners). Go figure. 

Another case, a dog that bit the youngest child in the family, badly, couldn't stay at home. Right now the dog is in LE and the handler says that he thought that his previous dog was good but he was wrong, this dog is just everything what he ever dreamed to have in his K9 partner. 

Real dogs, heartbreaking situations but people worked through them and found a win-win solution. 

About the breeder, cut your losses and move on.


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## VanBuren shepherds (Dec 3, 2012)

GSD07 said:


> I think this situation would be the most exciting for the dog, actually. Or you think single people do not go anywhere, do not train, do not socialize, and everything has to evolve around children?
> 
> 
> Sorry, I'll try not to offend any single people next time I post. Lol. Thanks for pointing that out GSD07!
> ...


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## VanBuren shepherds (Dec 3, 2012)

GSD07 said:


> I think this situation would be the most exciting for the dog, actually. Or you think single people do not go anywhere, do not train, do not socialize, and everything has to evolve around children?
> 
> Re original subject. You need to rehome the dog. If you have these thoughts now you need to rehome the dog asap before you start resenting and hating him. The 'trainers' and 'behaviorists' verdicts need to be taken with a grain of salt, regardless how much they charge.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry if I offended any single people out there. That was not my intentions. I failed to chews up my words before I spitz thems out! Lol! Thank you for pointing that out to me GSD07! I was just thinking a dog raised with children would probably miss having children. But, what do I know I'm not an expert and all my GSD's have been raised with children. So I've only seen one side of the coin. Just giving my opinion like everyone else. I will strive next time to make sure that there is no possible way for me to say anything that would offend someone. WAIT! That's impossible! Unless, I say nothing at all! Lol


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Yeah, a dog that bit a child will surely miss having children around, loads of fun. Just kidding


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Hopefullyfor everyones sake if the dog is being re-homed or any dog similar to this gets re-homed the original owners will be honest about why its being re-homed-Not sure how many homes would want to take something like that on


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