# Bring that here! C'mon... puleeeez?



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Okay, how do you get a dog to bring back a toy!? I got the idea it is good for them to return to you for tugging and interaction. 
Actually, I have dogs who will run back and shove the thing into me for a game.... but then there is this one... 

I have a long line on. I am moving and encouraging and then tugging and praising if I manage to get him reeled in, and that is like once. He actually lays down in the grass like a log and won't budge. 

Should I not toss? Just keep him close on a line and tug, release to him and keep him close by and tug again etc... and then quit? I really am trying to teach this with little result. 

I am thinking tug game has not won out over his concern for possession here. I haven't spent a lot of time outing either. 


I wonder what I am doing wrong or not thinking of. I don't want to create conflict.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

This sounds exactly like Nikon. Nikon did not want to come back to me at first, his idea of a reward was to possess the ball and he was half-assed interested in actually tugging. I hated using a line b/c it always tangled, didn't really change his desire to come back. Two things worked for us: 1) I started using two balls, so the one I had suddenly became way more exciting than the one he fetched and 2) at some age it was like a lightbulb went off and he was far, far more interested in tugging than just having the ball. Now he will come back and if he's not quite within reach he will actually place the end of the string on my hand and look at me like "C'mon! TUG IT!" I think once he decided that tugging was fun, he understood that it takes two to tug. Now he's all about me and the toy. He's ripped the strings out of so many toys, I have them all over the house and yard, but the second I move towards the box where I keep the stringed ones, he spits the ones he has and comes charging over to me.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I had one dog a few years ago where I had to really teach this, and some days Heidi is giving me a reminder course as well. Sometimes she comes tearing back to play, other times the desire to possess takes over.

2-ball can help, but is not my favorite way to deal with this as I feel it can build some bad habits elsewhere. So I've just used the long line method. Tug, dog wins, I pick up line and circle dog (similar to as would be done in protection). I never let the dog lie down to possess. The dog has to keep moving. Then after a circle or two I run backwards *away* from the dog, reeling the dog in with the line and encouraging with body language and voice, and once the dog comes to me we have a big tug playing party, then repeat. Doesn't seem to take long for them to figure out that coming back for more play is a LOT more fun, especially since I block their ability to lie down and possess the toy.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Okay, this sounds good. I was trying a bit, but didn't want to go further without looking for some ideas. I can get him back with two toys, but that really wasn't transferring and I don't particularly like it either.

I will just persist. He needs more experience at it to come to really like the tugging. I will try to keep him close and moving. His propensity to lay down and really use his body as an anchor in this is something I have never seen. It will be a challenge to keep him hopping. I have even considered little encouraging pops on a pinch. He is on a flat.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Just a thought, but could you switch to more of an Ivan type game? Where the reward is the tugging and not so much the winning? That way you could build the value of the tugging and make it less about possession? 

I also don't particularly care for 2 ball. Little pops on the pinch worked for Argos.

I know when we taught Cade to bring things back, we basically did what Chris said, running away when he won so he'd have to chase me, hitting my chest etc. Although we never did the circles. As soon as he tugged back, I would pretend like he was the strongest dog in the world, let go, and then immedietely lean back and encourage him back. I really never gave him any room to "get away" since it's only about arms length and I often play this game sitting on the floor.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Molly takes the toy and walks back to you like you will get it back then she makes you chase her.lol I think teach her to drop it, when you say "Drop". thats what we did with our other dogs.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Molly takes the toy and walks back to you like you will get it back then she makes you chase her.lol I think teach her to drop it, when you say "Drop". thats what we did with our other dogs.


For just playing with the dog or general companion training, teaching the dog to just bring it back and drop it can certainly work. But this discussion is particular to SchH training which is a bit different. Here the dog needs to actively engage the handler with play, be comfortable tugging and possessing the object in the presence of the handler and not worried that the handler will require letting go, and you also don't want to condition the dog to always drop what is in his mouth when he returns to you (one of the aforementioned possible bad side effects of 2-ball) as that can cause havoc with the retrieves later on.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I avoided the two ball method for a long time, everyone said it would be really bad, but it got to the point where I could not enjoy a simply game of fetch without my dog running off and trying to avoid me. I two balls *only* for playing fetch (not as part of obedience training, for that I just never threw the ball so he wasn't given the chance to get possessive), and even with the two balls the dog was still reluctant to drop his ball, I had to make my ball interesting and ask him to out. We played fetch this way for a few weeks and it helped immensely and also carried over into playing during obedience, without him ever dropping the ball. I can't think of a time he has ever, ever just dropped the ball during obedience. We've actually regressed a bit and he often will not out the ball without being lifted up or if I give him a quick pinch on his thigh. We did retrieves over the winter and I had no problems with him ever chewing or dropping the dumbbell, but we spent months on just the "hold" part and backchained with food and clicker. I still play fetch with two balls, and now he will drop his on his own but he knows it must be dropped between my feet, I'm not going to be fetching his ball because he dropped it and wanted mine. I've not seen any negative effects on obedience or the retrieves but it's all totally different contexts. Now that he likes tugging, I can throw the ball during obedience too, he comes right back. Outing can still be a struggle.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I haven't had any problem with Karlo bringing back the toy or tug to re-engage. 
He isn't one to prance around after he wins on leash, even in protection, he would rather bring the sleeve back to the helper for more. I wish he would want to possess it more? 
Last night, he brought back the ball and spit it before he sat.
I just started(last night) to work on retrieves/hold and this was interesting, that he was giving it up, when I wanted him to hold it!
Usually he has always held it for more tug,but he must have known I wanted to change the game, so he decided to play by his new rule. Always a challenge!


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I understand, Lies. Its not the worst thing in the world to do two! I will do it if I have to and maybe it wouldn't be a long term thing. I think I just need to devote some work to it so he learns to like and understand the tugging. He is not fighting, tugging sort of guy though unless he really gets revved. Mostly he will just grab hard, pull downward to get himself to the ground and hold on. Loverly! hehe


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I spend a lot of time using the tug as just that, a tug. The dog is on leash, a six foot leash, and once I give the tug, I allow him to carry it and I praise him. I will kneel down and pet them and not try to take it. Then I might make a little tug on it and praise some more. I want the dog to know that I like it when he has the tug. The praise makes a big difference in how the dog views you in this. Also not trying to take it all the time as well. When I do take the tug we go right back to obedience and then they get to tug again. Since they are on a short leash circling me, it is easy to get a hold of the tug and pull a little bit and then allow the dog to carry again while I praise him. Only after months of doing this do I ever throw the tug. Every dog I have done this with will race out to get it and come full speed back to me placing the tug in my hands to play. They only know that behavior, so, that is the one they want to do . 

Also, I've learned through my obedience clients, the general public variety, that if you want your dog to come back to you and jump up , you simply move backwards away from the dog with your hands out....like you want the dog to stop and then yell no, no, no. They LOVE that and most of them will maul you once you get going. They learn this at home when the people come through the front door with their nice work clothes on and they try to get their dog to not jump on them. Their gyrations get the exact opposite affect of what they were looking for but I sure have put it to good use. I tried it with more than a few of my dogs and it works great. Once I started saying no no no with that kind of panicked tone that people have when they don't want dog paws on them...they barreled right into me. lol. Just now tried with with Jinx who flew off the bed to see what the heck was wrong with me. You can get that part of it and then add the tug later. Try it, the reaction from the dogs is pretty funny but you do have to get that tone right so they are curious about what is ailing you.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

I like the "no, no, no, not on my nice cloth" idea


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

...and to put what I just said about the no, no, no stuff into dog language....if you want the dog to come to you or look at you or be interested in you, you have to be an attraction. A bigger one than whatever else is going on. There are times you have to be willing to look silly or make the neighbors think that maybe you are a little nuts. The dogs like that and they will want to interact with you when you are not so boring. Just being the food or toy dispenser all the time is usually not enough. Not for some kinds of dogs. The really highly excitable prey types maybe but if your dog is more like a GSD, making yourself interesting is a mandatory skill IMO.

Attraction: *1 a* *:* the act, process, or power of attracting *b* *:* personal charm
*2* *:* the action or power of drawing forth a response *:* an attractive quality
*3* *:* a force acting mutually between particles of matter, tending to draw them together, and resisting their separation
*4* *:* something that attracts or is intended to attract people by appealing to their desires and tastes


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Samba, what game does he like to play when you are just around the house?


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Hmmm... around the house, he will retrieve a tossed toy. He is not unwilling to retrieve really. Okay, he doesn't just spit the toy back at you, but eventually he will let it go for throwing on his own. 

He seems to just really like to possess that tug. I will try keeping him on a short leash and that way I won't have to try to get him back to me so much. Maybe he can learn the tugging game easier from that distance. His first reaction is to lay down and not budge also. So really need to get him to learn he can carry in a circle, really. I may not be so interesting also. His obedience isn't flashy either so I am going to have to add myself more to that too. Hey, this is work!

His tugging style is different too. He just locks on and pulls back. I have had dogs be more active in this if that makes sense... more flipping of the tug and dancing and pushing forward with it. I think it is good he wants to possess it but its a back breaker.

So its the squealing and flinching that make them jump on you? I thought they were just attracted new white clothing!


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Oh yeah, I forgot about the white clothing. Some dogs seem to prefer anything that has to be dry cleaned as well. Test it out on Easter if you have plans to go anywhere.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Is it with every toy that he wants to possess it, or is it just the tug? Do you have to have possession of it first before he is interested in it?


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

You might be better off starting over and back chaining fetch.

Back chaining is teaching a chain of behaviors starting with the last behavior first.

Just google "back chaining fetch" and you'll find several explanations like this.

This one for clicker training is ok, just use whatever word you use to mark a correct behavior if you don't use a clicker.

Dog Activ- Retrieve

Another with no clicker this time.

Flyball Training Tips


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

He will bring toys back. He has that retrieve thing that he almost can't help. When he gets back.. not so interested in giving it up but sometimes will.

The tug thing is a bit different. He loves it and obviously does not want to bring it back very much. So, I kept him close on a line and he doesn't jump up on me with it. If I take an end of it to tug with him, he lays down, he hunkers in, he is sinking to the center of the earth. So there is not the tugging I am used to.. there is me just pulling forward on an immovable, purposely flattened to the ground dog. LOL 

I did get him moving today a bit with Anne's "entertain the neighbors" scheme where he couldn't help but get up a bit with the excitement. i tried to get him him going in a circle some, I praised and supported him standing with it in his mouth.

He has done this since a little guy. The first time he grabbed a toy on the flirt pole... snag it, drop to the ground and make yourself weigh a 1000 lbs.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Samba said:


> He has done this since a little guy. The first time he grabbed a toy on the flirt pole... snag it, drop to the ground and make yourself weigh a 1000 lbs.


Part Rottweiler?


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Chris Wild said:


> 2-ball can help, but is not my favorite way to deal with this as I feel it can build some bad habits elsewhere..


Chris,

What bad habits does it start? Are you talking about 2-ball for tug/ob work only, or just in general, including playing fetch? I never thought of it as a way to pick up any bad habits (we use if for fetch almost on a daily basis)...now I'm paranoid!


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

I'm not Chris, but I've seen dogs that start to generalize the dropping they do for two ball into their retrieve behavior. So when they bring something like the dumbbell back they drop it on the ground usually a couple of feet out from the handler. This can make teaching the hold and front with the dumbbell difficult. 

Personally, after having done a couple different things as I was learning, now I don't out my dogs on retrieve exercises, until they understand an out done in drive. (Usually I like to take my protection out and use it to transfer) I encourage my dogs to come back and slam me with the toy, making it never about possession but about fighting/tugging with the object.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

GSDElsa said:


> Chris,
> 
> What bad habits does it start? Are you talking about 2-ball for tug/ob work only, or just in general, including playing fetch? I never thought of it as a way to pick up any bad habits (we use if for fetch almost on a daily basis)...now I'm paranoid!


The occasional 2-ball session probably isn't a worry, but I don't like 2-ball as a primary means of playing with the dog, or for use in training, for 2 main reasons. 

First, it makes the toy into the main attraction and the fun happens away from the handler. The handler is just a toy dispenser. The fun is all about chasing the toy *away* from the handler. Ok for some playing on occasion, but two things I do not want to do enough of to habituate those behaviors, or associate with the use of toys in training.

Second, it conditions dogs to eject the first ball from their mouth as soon as they return to the handler in order to make the next throw happen. I don't want to condition my dog to drop things on his own when he comes back to me (possibly major retrieve headaches coming down the pipe) or that he can't be comfortable holding and possessing something in close proximity to me (can lead to all sorts of conflict with handler later on).

I play fetch pretty much daily too. Mainly for fun and exercise, not really for training, but bad habits can still carry over so I try to minimize them by structuring the fetch a bit differently. Not to say I've never played 2-ball, I do on occasion, but rarely. It's not the normal way we play fetch. Usually with fetch there is just one ball, or one of those soft nylon frisbees, which the dog must deliver to my hands but not let go of until commanded to. And I'll do some tugging and slap fighting with the dog too in order to encourage engagement with me and holding onto the object until told to out. It's not always just bring it back for another throw, even when we're just playing fetch.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Yes, he is very rott-like in this. My back is keeeeling me. I mean I am tugging and he is not! I think I will go tie a tug to a boulder and pull on it to build muscles for this!:wild:


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## Miikkas mom (Dec 21, 2009)

I'm not sure how old your pup is but here is what I did with Mikka.... I started when she was...er...about 14 weeks old! :blush:

One night, shortly after we got her, I was working on the computer in my office. Mikka was in here with me lying on her bed. I could tell she wanted to play or do something other than sleep! So, I tossed her ball....*just a few feet...*and she went and got it. Once she had the ball in her mouth, I called her back to me and of course, praised her up when she brought the ball back. I increased the distance - *in very small increments* - until she was returning the ball from the other side of the office (about 16 feet). Over the next several weeks we worked on this both inside and outside util she was "retrieving" all the time. IMO, I think starting small and increasing the distanced works good....at least it did for us. Also, I would toss whatever I had on hand. If her ball was not in the office, I tossed one of her toys. Good luck!


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Well, I can throw a toy for him all day and have him bring me back a toy, that, unfortunately, is not really the problem.

The problem is... do not try to play tug with this dog! LOL


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Chris and JK--Wow, thanks for the info. I never really thought about it in terms of what you are describing. Good to know for future dogs. I've never used it as a form of training (although I will make her down, stay, etc before the next throw--that's more brush up)--just having a fun workout. I'll definitely think about that down the road, though. With tennis balls in the exercise arena she absolutely will spit the ball out as soon as she gets back to me. But for actual training, I use tug sessions or treats as reward so at least she hasn't developed the habit of not being able to hold onto SOMETHING when I'm in close proximity.

ETA: Although I wil say, she DOES seem to be good a differentiating between when we are having a "2 ball exercise session" and just every day. In the house she'll come up with the tennis ball and want us to play tug with it. I'm not talking tennis balls with the string--just a tennis ball. Somehow my husband manages to acutally do this well. Anytime I've tried ends up with skin pinched between teeth--so he gets to brave that game!


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Two things. The reason I was asking the questions is because I have had issues with Bison wanting to possess toys too. When he was a puppy, it was everything. I couldn't play fetch with him because he wouldn't let go of the ball once he got it.

I used two ball with him to teach him "out", but was a little different than the way Chris described it above. I wasn't training for SchH at the time, so the dropping of the ball was not an issue, but I was concerned with him doing things on command and not just on his own. I wanted him to learn to "out" when I told him to, not when he decided to. 

I showed him one ball and tossed it. He ran and got it and came back. I had the other ball behind my back where he couldn't see it. I would give the command "out" THEN show the ball. When he dropped the ball then I would mark it with "yes" and immediately throw the ball. I always made sure that I said the command "out" before or as he was dropping the ball. Once he learned the command, then I put the other ball away. I also had to teach him a "back" command and a "leave it" command to make it safe for me to reach for the ball.

Secondly, with the tug, he is really possessive. What helped is that I bought two identical tugs. One stays in the truck with the training gear and the other he has possession of around the house. We play tug with it inside *when I say*, but he gets to keep it. It helped him to learn that the tug was not the reward, but me engaging with it is. Also, it was a "common" toy now and not such a high reward for possession.

It isn't perfect, but it has helped. He is great inside the house, but once he is outside where there is grass and he has traction; it is a different story, so I am working on transference from inside to outside.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Yeah, I don't know. I could try to let him have a tug toy more, but it would get destroyed. Perhaps it has a high value to him currently whereas the regular "toss" toys don't so much.

I can see it now... he gets the sleeve slipped and I am dragging 80 lbs of dog and sleeve through the grass on his side. Run around, run around...

I am thinking he needs to learn this laying down thing is not going to cut it.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

As I think about it he uses his body a lot. I haven't had a dog who does this. If l let him out the back door and he wants me to go, he will go behind me, stand up and try to muscle me out. I cling to the doorframe in a fourpoint stance! If I am out and he doesn't want me to go back in, he wraps his front legs around my ankles and lays down. I am like... what is this?!


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

An idea came to me that maybe being on a line or leash was making it worse. I took the tug out with him free and he was much more active and willing to stay on four feet to tug! If he did lay down with it, I just turned and walked away and he quickly got up to get me.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Samba said:


> Yeah, I don't know. I could try to let him have a tug toy more, but it would get destroyed. Perhaps it has a high value to him currently whereas the regular "toss" toys don't so much.
> 
> I can see it now... he gets the sleeve slipped and I am dragging 80 lbs of dog and sleeve through the grass on his side. Run around, run around...
> 
> I am thinking he needs to learn this laying down thing is not going to cut it.


True...True... He finally took out the "house tug" last week, the handle came off and the guts were starting to come out the middle. He doesn't really play with it much on his own. He has been known to use it as a pillow though.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

We have more standing near and holding the tug and I can praise and pet him and then take hold and tug some. So far not jumping up in front and coming into me but I will keep encouraging that.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Maybe do what they do with flyball dogs and tug in a narrow hallway ... eliminate options. I don't know ... Ike won't return the tug to me either.


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