# It's official (moved from chat)



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

The next puppy I have will be an Ot Vitosha Malinois. The deposit has been made.

It will be a male from the upcoming C litter.

Malinois Ot Vitosha - Two Time World Champion Dogs

I've been a big fan of Odin (he's a shark with fur) as well as quite a few notable dogs in both the sire and bitch's pedigree. Now here's just hoping there are some males in there to choose from. I was originally looking for something quite a bit older, but I do like the pliability that comes with getting them young (insert pedobear image here)


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

I like how they flat out tell you not to expect the "off switch" with these guys. At least they're honest.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Congratulations. 

Question. On the video Odin bites low and hangs on but isn't that dangerous for the dog in a real situation. If the guy was serious with the stick he could work the dog over because the dogs focus is so low.

Could you explain, so us "pet people" can understand.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

1 it's a sport. That is Ivan's competition dog. He isn't going to be sending it for live bites on armed assailants. He has other dogs for that. 

2 Have you ever taken a live bite from a trained attack dog of that caliber? If so your first reaction was not oh he's got my leg I'll just just work this dog over while he's biting my leg. You would scream bloody murder, probably panic and the dog would have you for breakfast. Unless you were hopped up on pcp or something.

3 you can just recall the dog and with a leg wound like that the guy can't keep up.

I've taken practice suit bites from dogs like that and had them still hurt me through the suit. You don't want the real thing. Just trust me on that. The power is something you have to experience first hand to really understand.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

niiiiice, looking forward to the updates!

One of my friends was hoping to get an Ot Vitosha pup from the breeding last fall that didn't take. Of course, it didn't take, so that was a no-go.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Whoa. Have fun with him. Looks as if he has afterburners, LOL.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Jack's Dad said:


> Congratulations.
> 
> Question. On the video Odin bites low and hangs on but isn't that dangerous for the dog in a real situation. If the guy was serious with the stick he could work the dog over because the dogs focus is so low.
> 
> Could you explain, so us "pet people" can understand.


:laugh::laugh:


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## TigervTeMar (Jan 4, 2014)

congrats

what is the difference between GS and Malinois behavior/temperament? like is one more active, one more responsive, etc.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

TigervTeMar said:


> congrats
> 
> what is the difference between GS and Malinois behavior/temperament? like is one more active, one more responsive, etc.


That varies dog to dog and generalizations made when debating that start fights in places like this.

If you want my opinion pm me for it, as I've already used up my allotment of moderator warnings on another thread.


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## TigervTeMar (Jan 4, 2014)

ah I see


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Congratulations Bailiff!


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Baillif said:


> 1 it's a sport. That is Ivan's competition dog. He isn't going to be sending it for live bites on armed assailants. He has other dogs for that.
> 
> 2 Have you ever taken a live bite from a trained attack dog of that caliber? If so your first reaction was not oh he's got my leg I'll just just work this dog over while he's biting my leg. You would scream bloody murder, probably panic and the dog would have you for breakfast. Unless you were hopped up on pcp or something.
> 
> ...


Nice. 

Do the Malinois bite harder than GSD, or is it their biting style is different? Do they actually create serious wounds on the street, more so than GSDs? If so, how does the department handle the liability?

I'm curious, because I have never worked with a Mal, and haven't seen many working. I have heard their style is different from the GSD, more energetic?


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Freestep said:


> Do the Malinois bite harder than GSD, or is it their biting style is different? Do they actually create serious wounds on the street, more so than GSDs? If so, how does the department handle the liability?
> 
> I'm curious, because I have never worked with a Mal, and haven't seen many working. I have heard their style is different from the GSD, more energetic?


Wait, I'm not sure you'll be able to answer that question without there being a fight. PM me if you like.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Good selection, can't go wrong with Ivan's breeding! I think you will be the first here with an Ot Vitosha pup! If you plan to train in IPO, make sure Ivan knows that before selecting for you. 

Good Mals are cool, I have trained with a couple, they do have big memories so training has to be pretty good. In other words, a bad experience tends to bog them down a little, not as forgiving as a good GSD.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Definitely looking forward to updates and pictures! You're in for a ride!


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Yay for fellow Malinois!

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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Baillif, you already have Mals and train in ring don't you? Congrats on your expectant puppy!


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

The dog I've been training is a half mal half german shepherd. I've been raising him since he was 7 weeks old and he could get a mondio 1 if pushed hard enough, but he wouldn't have the edginess or drive to push through the pressure to get the bites to get a 2 or 3. It's just not there. Mondio tends to focus the greatest pressure on the dogs right before the bites. If they don't want it bad enough they will fail. 

We've been agitating and frustrating and basically expending lots of energy to try to get him to really turn it on, and bite with the intensity and desire he would need. It looks like he does it, but it isn't there like it needs to be especially when you start to put control on him. He likes to bite but it isn't a part of his core identity like it needs to be.

I still try. I still work him. I still take him through the exercises, but he's doing more to prepare me for trial than I am doing to prepare him at this point. I want to compete seriously and he won't be the dog to do it with.

Ivan knows I'm doing mondio. He's going to find me a monster in there. I'm hopefully going to be able to clean house here with the next board and train class or two and get down there to train and hang out in May. And yeah Packen that's why I want a monster one with a really quick bounce back. Vidin ot Vitosha, One of two competition dogs my mentor is working had really impressed me with his ability to bounce back really quickly from anything. You should have seen what we had to do to get that dog to finally out clean on the suit. He's a fighter.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Cool, looks like you have the resources needed to handle/train a good dog. Looking forward to see results in 2 years


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Congratulations! I am pretty familiar with some of those lines- the stud (tervuren out of malinois) I chose for my female is out of Turcodos' brother, Xorro. You tend to get very social malinois that are detail oriented and super confident. That means that you can work again and again on getting positioning right, or nitty-gritty OB details and the dog will give his all each and every time until it is perfect. Very Belgian that way. My female tervuren (out of malinois) is Joefarm on one side- nice, flashy, serious dogs with a civil edge. Fully committed and very quick and smart.

Should be a nice combo and Ivan certainly produces solid dogs. Have fun!


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I might have a surprise for a few of you after this weekend. There is a beast of a malinois coming to bite me that is apparently a freak of nature. Won't even out for a 125 level stim e collar blast. Someone trained the dog in defense on a table so he got so used to winning through pain he's super resilient and bites like a monster. I have been told from reliable sources I may go my whole life never seeing a dog quite like this again.

There will be video. It won't be posted in public because we WILL be outing the dog and those of you who can really appreciate that know what I mean.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Pedigree?


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Congrats on your new puppy. Just remember when he doesn't listen alpha roll the crap out of him.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> Pedigree?


On the freak? I'm not sure. I think Tom Rose bred the dog though. Whoever sold it to the current owner got rid of him because he was coming up the leash at him at 8 months old.


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

I met an Ot Vitosha dog; absolutely loved him!


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

shepherdmom said:


> Congrats on your new puppy. Just remember when he doesn't listen alpha roll the crap out of him.


Rookie stuff. I pass them out now.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Baillif said:


> On the freak? I'm not sure. I think Tom Rose bred the dog though. Whoever sold it to the current owner got rid of him because he was coming up the leash at him at 8 months old.


yea, the freak! Was the dog in the TR school?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I don't think so. I only got the gist of what the story was from a super excited phone call. It was mostly excited dude you have to see this.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

No out is a safe spot for the dog....I'd like to see the video.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Baillif said:


> Won't even out for a 125 level stim e collar blast.


That is not so "fantastic" if you think about it, he was probably fried, flanked and pinched if he outed on the table. If so then the bite will get more crushing if your spotter stims him. Try poking him in the eyes but keep face out of reach  ...and don't forget to add me to the "send video" list.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Oh don't get me wrong. I wouldn't want a dog of mine doing crap like that. A dog like that who hates everyone besides his handler is not a dog I'd ever want in defense anyway. You have to respect a monster that resilient though.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

I want to see the video sounds like KNPV lines, and congrats on the nice breeding btw. 

You going to try some positive methods first or straight to work? Suttle mentioned that +R worked well with some of the monsters he got.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I start +R with puppies. Fun games and adventures and confidence and environmental work. The puppy will not see a food bowl until he's working for play. I'll use mostly management to stop the little guy from learning bad behaviors, but if I have to intervene to stop something from getting worse I will.


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

Really like the look of Odin. Mals are more dog than I can handle, but I can definitely appreciate what they can do. Handsome dog too. I can imagine the helper has some nice bruises with how he just digs into the bite. You are gonna definitely have fun.

I'd be curious to see the video with that other dog. But I just love seeing any and all videos I can of dogs working. It's why I end up spending a few hours hanging around when we're training. I love watching each dog, seeing how they react, how the helper adapts. So wish I was close to lots of people on this forum lol.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Baillif said:


> I start +R with puppies. Fun games and adventures and confidence and environmental work. The puppy will not see a food bowl until he's working for play. I'll use mostly management to stop the little guy from learning bad behaviors, but if I have to intervene to stop something from getting worse I will.


 
I was talking about the monster .


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Oh, well in his case if the e collar doesn't work or pronging him off doesn't work, or a combination of the two maybe we break a schutzhund stick over his muzzle and if that doesn't work maybe I try luring him off with a cookie.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Dont forget to click!


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## sechattin (Nov 13, 2013)

Congratulations, can't wait to see what your new Mal will do in the future! I'd also love to see the video of the monster. Getting more and more interested in Mondio and I'd like to see what a monster like that looks like!


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

The monster dog is a schutzhund dog. Apparently only takes left arm bites no matter what you do. I hate taking hard bites in the arm in the suit. Not much protection there. There will be bruises.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

Man 125 is no joke. I stim my Palm at 50 and I'm already whining like a baby....


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

hey Bailiff congrats on your new working prospect.

I like a good malinois --- had the privilege to work side by side with a few -- including Rocky Bayard and Axel de Lison , plus some of the top French competition dogs that came to our Campagne trials .
Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs
Esa's beaceron also came for training at our ring club. 
Esa has a beautiful malinois now.
He goes to France a few times a year , trains from sunrise to sunset , and has been on the French podium a few times.

Trying to get the little female (early socialization thread) to go out to the ring club with her new owner and get her started .
Later in the year when I do my planned "knpv" breeding I am looking to holding something back and then going up and doing Ring again myself --- with Esa .

you know a lot of this not having an off switch stuff is trash talk . The best malinois I have seen have a lot of self control and there is an off and an on ---. Just to learn the intricacies of object guard the dog has to have the switch. You can have intensity and control , which is what I see in Odin on the youtube .
The dogs that don't have that on and off are crazy dogs , and that is where you see the nerves.
Power .


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

are you planning on doing ring or IPO ?

what resources do you have for good decoy work?

it will be interesting to see how you start this dog .


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Mondio ring with this puppy. I have the decoy resources for most stuff here. Anything specific or fine tuned I'll likely travel for especially closer to a trial date. I know how to train the majority of the exercises up to mondio ring 3 and have been actively involved in the process with other dogs. We have the equipment for the jumps here, except for the palisade but we are going to be done building that soon. 

I wasn't worried about the on off switch thing either. I'll install one. Honestly I think that part was in there to intimidate people who weren't serious. Whenever some of these guys do a serious sport breeding it is always the same thing. Is he serious...no really is he serious? Todd Dunlap did the same kind of thing with his last litter. Helps to have someone they know vouching for you.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

mondio was definitely interesting . Went out a few times after our Ring club closed down . Met Bob Bilyard , and then again at Ring and at the Campagne trial . He made a little club which had starts and stops , and by the time it got running I concentrated time on other aspects.

do you know of him? 

"I wasn't worried about the on off switch thing either. I'll install one. Honestly I think that part was in there to intimidate people who weren't serious" 

Yeah . All the dogs I have met through these other sports are very stable , actually icy in control, dogs - not much leaking going on . The newbies get hyper impressed with the imagination of a "monster" dog , out of control . The dogs tend to mirror the handlers ! lots of self discipline and mastery .


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Control will come in the work. Im not worried about that. The off switch more appplies when you want the dog to do pet stuff like chill out with you while you watch tv. Care must be taken to prevent the puppy from classically conditioning to see you as stimuli to go into working mode. Harder with a driven dog that can hear a marker whispered and springs up from 0 to 100 in a flash.

Thats going to be really important with this guy because hes going to be at the kennel most of the time. Come out of a crate here and chances are something exciting is happening. Im going to try not to get to attatched. This guy is it or hes gone to make room for one that is. I say that now we'll see if i can follow through if the time comes. Got to keep the grlfriend away from that pup. Shes so attatched to zebu now even if i could get 50k for him shed say no.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

More congrats!  and more "send video" request too, lol.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Are you going to train him at Petsmart to make him fiercer? (the puppy)


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## JanaeUlva (Feb 5, 2011)

Congrats on the new pup! 
You can add me to the monster video list


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Or you could give Karen Pryor a call. Put her in bite suit, she'll get it figured out I'm sure. Due to the other convo I've been checking out the V.S. forum a bit, great advice over there too, maybe you could get some help there. 

Congrats on the puppy and put me on the 'monster' video list too please. 




Baillif said:


> Oh, well in his case if the e collar doesn't work or pronging him off doesn't work, or a combination of the two maybe we break a schutzhund stick over his muzzle and if that doesn't work maybe I try luring him off with a cookie.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Congratulations, Baillif. I'm sorry you didn't get a Showline, but we can't all be stars.....  

Looking forward to hearing about this pup.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

:d


rocketdog said:


> congratulations, baillif. I'm sorry you didn't get a showline, but we can't all be stars.....
> 
> looking forward to hearing about this pup.


:d


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## ApselBear (Feb 10, 2014)

Baillif said:


> I might have a surprise for a few of you after this weekend. There is a beast of a malinois coming to bite me that is apparently a freak of nature. Won't even out for a 125 level stim e collar blast. Someone trained the dog in defense on a table so he got so used to winning through pain he's super resilient and bites like a monster. I have been told from reliable sources I may go my whole life never seeing a dog quite like this again.
> 
> There will be video. It won't be posted in public because we WILL be outing the dog and those of you who can really appreciate that know what I mean.


I would like to see this video too.


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

Congratulations on your new guy, cant wait to see pics of him in action.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

RocketDog said:


> Congratulations, Baillif. I'm sorry you didn't get a Showline, but we can't all be stars.....
> 
> Looking forward to hearing about this pup.


I know. I can't stack my dogs worth a ****. I know what my limitations are in life.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

carmspack said:


> Yeah . All the dogs I have met through these other sports are very stable , actually icy in control, dogs - not much leaking going on . The newbies get hyper impressed with the imagination of a "monster" dog , out of control . The dogs tend to mirror the handlers ! lots of self discipline and mastery .


 
Lol Im actually impressed with the pain thresholds on a dog capable of withstanding 125 and still not complying or shutting down. Have you ever stimmed yourself at that level? Its how I imagine being shot would feel.

99% of dogs would buckle at that type of pain. There are plenty of out of control weak dogs out there. Its not in the least bit impressive.

Its weird I once had someone tell me that I wanted an out of control dog because I want nerve, hardness and intensity.. 
Cant stand the ones that need coddling to get on the bite or to go into drive. Even worse are the ones that shut down or go into avoidance because of pressure from the environment or handler.. Too many of those out there with people making excuses for them.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I've stimmed myself on 100 at the wrist. I would imagine it's worse on the neck and the extra 25 levels assuming it's more intense and not just the same stuff but divided up a little more wouldn't be fun.

I've seen a labradoodle shrug an 80/100 on a dogtra iq. Some just genetically have high tolerances for pain that can border on ridiculous.


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## Lark (Jan 27, 2014)

_I wasn't worried about the on off switch thing either. I'll install one. Honestly I think that part was in there to intimidate people who weren't serious._

It worked for me - that line about no off switch struck fear into my soul. congrats and good luck!


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Iv always wondered if dogs necks are as sensitive as ours. Seems that between the hair, loose skin and muscle mass they tend to be less so. Though there are definitely a few exceptions. 
I cant really feel stim if I apply the collar to my palm but when its on my forearm I feel the lower levels no problem.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I always hear their necks are more like our thighs. So anybody want to take one of the 125 level dogtras put it on thigh muscle and give yourself some P+ and report back with a video and your description of your personal experience go for it. I'll wait.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Lol I feel that I had an effective single event learning session with my Einstien. No need to repeat.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Yeah when I say I stimmed myself it was really Juan claiming he was just going to find my working level. Never going to believe that line again.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Baillif said:


> I've seen a labradoodle shrug an 80/100 on a dogtra iq. Some just genetically have high tolerances for pain that can border on ridiculous.


 Labs and APBTs are notorious for this. 

I once fostered an APBT whose leg was injured in a car accident. It was determined that the leg needed to be amputated, as it was paralyzed and just dragging around. The rescue and the vet implored me to give her pain meds after the amputation surgery. I'm old school; in my day, dogs were rarely given pain meds after surgery because we wanted them to be still and quiet for recovery. The vets used to say that "pain serves a purpose" in keeping the dog from feeling too good and overdoing it. They acted like I was horrible for even questioning the need for pain meds. 

That dog came out of surgery with her tail whipping back and forth so hard, it hurt; still under the effects of anesthesia, she could not quite walk on 3 legs yet, but that tail was going a mile a minute. I gave the pain meds as prescribed, and she was *running* across the yard the next day on 3 legs, as though a great weight had been lifted. We tried to keep her calm and quiet, but still, she would zip around, forget her leg was gone and crash. It made me wince, but she'd just get right back up and tearing around.


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## Mikelia (Aug 29, 2012)

That's so exciting! I look forward to hearing all about your adventures with your new pup! 
I trial in agility with 3 Ot Vitosha malinois - 2 are seniors now and one is going on three years old and just got her lifetime achievement award with the agility association of Canada, probably the youngest dog to ever achieve this title. They are wonderful dogs with very clear off switches but they are owned by very knowledgeable trainers. I have no idea of their pedigrees but they are impressive dogs none the less. 
And on the topic of pain thresholds my apbt went through major surgery to remove mast cell tumors. She had a 12" incision on her lower abdomen - they removed two mammary glands and a large margin around them and a 8" incision on her neck. They barely had enough skin around the incision sites to stitch it back together. I picked her up a few hours after she came out of anesthetic and she came out raring to go, walking on her back legs! And she was at least 8 years old when this happened. Darn dog just bounced around when we got home, I had to send her to bed. Some dogs are tough!


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## GrammaD (Jan 1, 2012)

I shall live vicariously through you. Love the breed, love the breeder, will not live long enough to be a good enough handler to ever have one of my own 

Congratulations and good luck!


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Congrats... can't wait to see pictures/videos.

Can we start with pictures of the bruises from this monster, though, publicly? XD


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Yes my injuries will be public domain.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

K well no video for now. Nothing super crazy happened, and that's kind if why I didn't bother with video. He was a nice dog, but I think what I saw must not have been his peak ability due to the out being worked on a lot. I will see him again when he is back into form. He was probably holding back. He has very very good targeting. That is through a demanet practice suit. He got in 12 hits or so and still only managed to leave a mark the size of his jaw imprint. 

I still think Fito is scarier to work but that dog is definitely a hard hard biting mal.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Baillif said:


> K well no video for now. Nothing super crazy happened, and that's kind if why I didn't bother with video. He was a nice dog, but I think what I saw must not have been his peak ability due to the out being worked on a lot. I will see him again when he is back into form. He was probably holding back. He has very very good targeting. That is through a demanet practice suit. He got in 12 hits or so and still only managed to leave a mark the size of his jaw imprint.
> 
> I still think Fito is scarier to work but that dog is definitely a hard hard biting mal.


Hot.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

He slipped one of those vampire fangs through the weave I think and broke skin through the suit which was impressive considering the suit never took hits there and is basically brand new. He had the largest fang to incisor ratio of any dog I've ever seen. Looked like Count Dracula.


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## ApselBear (Feb 10, 2014)

Baillif said:


> He slipped one of those vampire fangs through the weave I think and broke skin through the suit which was impressive considering the suit never took hits there and is basically brand new. He had the largest fang to incisor ratio of any dog I've ever seen. Looked like Count Dracula.



We better keep you in quarantine until we're sure you won't turn :S


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Vampires can't turn werewolves.

Team Jacob represent.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Baillif next time you mention team jacob please attach shirtless pic of jacob himself. ..that is all  

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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

misslesleedavis1 said:


> Baillif next time you mention team jacob please attach shirtless pic of jacob himself. ..that is all
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Yup. This.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

misslesleedavis1 said:


> Baillif next time you mention team jacob please attach shirtless pic of jacob himself. ..that is all
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


:spittingcoffee: :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## mydogs (May 4, 2012)

Just saw Ivan a few months ago at a trial. Great great dogs! Congrats. 


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