# Roach-less WGSL Breeder Recommendations?



## xsaysayx (Feb 14, 2010)

Title pretty much says it all.
Deep, deep pigmentation preferred, large males, good sch and working ability... AKC registerable, is possible.
I want a sloping back, not an arched one.
Thanks!


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Huerta Hof.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

Huerta Hof, looks like they're roached to me. nice looking dogs.



xsaysayx said:


> Title pretty much says it all.
> Deep, deep pigmentation preferred, large males, good sch and working ability... AKC registerable, is possible.
> I want a sloping back, not an arched one.
> Thanks!





KZoppa said:


> Huerta Hof.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Not "roached"....just not "ironing board straight". They have a slight slope to topline, and their withers/shoulders are the highest point of their topline....slightly sloping downward to croup.
Stack pictures can be deceiving....simply ask me, I am honest and can tell you which ones have "more curve or slope" and which ones do not....


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## Tom888 (Nov 18, 2012)

Interesting topic


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

You'll probably have to consider the individual dogs/litters, not the breeder. Most WGSL breeders I know of will have dogs that are varying degrees of that WGSL type depending on the specific breeding. I don't think Nikon is that roached and he has many titles and did SchH for several years, but his dam is not part of the program. You'd have to talk to the breeder and explain what you're looking for.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Lol! 





doggiedad said:


> huerta hof, looks like they're roached to me.* Nice looking dogs*.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Yup.

And really....how many *good* WGSL breeders are breeding dogs with a truly roached back? The breeders I've seen recommended here and have met a couple (and their dogs) in person didn't have dogs with roached backs. I really don't think truly roached backed dogs are that common.

Heck some working lines look 'roached' when stacked too. :shrug:






robinhuerta said:


> Not "roached"....just not "ironing board straight". They have a slight slope to topline, and their withers/shoulders are the highest point of their topline....slightly sloping downward to croup.
> Stack pictures can be deceiving....simply ask me, I am honest and can tell you which ones have "more curve or slope" and which ones do not....


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

May I just say....

:wub:



Liesje said:


> You'll probably have to consider the individual dogs/litters, not the breeder. Most WGSL breeders I know of will have dogs that are varying degrees of that WGSL type depending on the specific breeding. I don't think Nikon is that roached and he has many titles and did SchH for several years, but his dam is not part of the program. You'd have to talk to the breeder and explain what you're looking for.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I think there is some subjectivity when it comes to roach v slope. I think people need to be comfortable with the structure of the dog they choose. I personally would want to see the dogs in person, and if not see them moving via video, see various photos, and if possible see any offspring and how they move. Particularly videos for the puppies.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

^ Exactly. In this case it doesn't matter what the definition really is. The OP knows what they want or don't want so we can help find that rather than try to convince them they aren't using the correct term or shouldn't worry about it. I'm guessing they are referring to a high wither, low and steep croup, and curved back. I don't like that either but you all know how much I love WGSL dogs, that is what I own. I just don't know of any WGSL breeders that are breeding really nice dogs AND actively trying to get away from that WGSL type. No one said it was bad, the OP just doesn't want it.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I have to disagree. I do think a correct understanding what a 'roach' back is helps build knowledge thereby increasing chances of a person picking a fundamentally sound dog. I have people saying my Smitty who is a very straight top line BYB dog is 'roached' occasionally. Sometimes I think the net does more damage to knowledge then help really because this sort of thing propagates so easily on the net and it's so much work to correct....

Then ... it's a matter of preference since GSDs are all over the place conformationally from ear sets to angulation and how much slope they have in the topline.

It is a very complicated breed.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

So what is the "correct" understanding? It seems that on this board people can never decide. Is it a curved back that results from a high wither and low croup, or is it when the topline rises higher than the wither at any point behind the wither?

Either way, the OP described what s/he wanted.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I came here not knowing in dogs what a true roach back was and really appreciated knowing the difference between a sloping topline vs a true roach. So if the OP wants to know or not, or if someone is researching online and more information is provided and helps someone else out with a deeper understanding it's not a bad thing .

I'll try to dig up the thread later where it was discussed by the more knowledgeable folks then me......later I have to head out to meet my trainer. 




Liesje said:


> So what is the "correct" understanding? It seems that on this board people can never decide. Is it a curved back that results from a high wither and low croup, or is it when the topline rises higher than the wither at any point behind the wither?
> 
> Either way, the OP described what s/he wanted.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I actually find more issue with the fact that people like to recommend breeders/dogs that they've never met. I'm sorry...but its really crazy that anytime someone asks about a breeder for a certain line, the first post is always one that's on this forum. Truth is...because those breeders are on the forum, its pretty much impossible to say ANYTHING bad or criticize them in the smallest bit, so all the OP gets is a raving review by people that don't have any first hand experience with that breeder or their dogs.

We should really make more of a point of saying what our experience is with that breeder. Like:

I like breeder X because I have seen their dogs work.

I like breeder Y because I have owned 5 dogs from them.

I like breeder Z because I have looked at pretty pictures of their dogs online.


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## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

Ok.

I like Alta Tollhaus because I have a very good, funny and crazy sense of humor dog from them. Oh yeah, love the rich color and his big head too.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

martemchik said:


> I actually find more issue with the fact that people like to recommend breeders/dogs that they've never met.


:toasting:

I don't get involved in these threads since I know very very few show line breeders personally and have only consistently trained with dogs from a few others. IMO that doesn't give me enough knowledge to recommend anyone.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I agree with this as well.



martemchik said:


> I actually find more issue with the fact that people like to recommend breeders/dogs that they've never met. I'm sorry...but its really crazy that anytime someone asks about a breeder for a certain line, the first post is always one that's on this forum. Truth is...because those breeders are on the forum, its pretty much impossible to say ANYTHING bad or criticize them in the smallest bit, so all the OP gets is a raving review by people that don't have any first hand experience with that breeder or their dogs.
> 
> We should really make more of a point of saying what our experience is with that breeder. Like:
> 
> ...


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

This thread helped me understand the term 'roach back' more concisely. If the OP is interested in digging into it as it is considered a conformational flaw vs sloping topline which *generally* is not (of course omitting the subjective aspect of how much slope/angulation is good or bad)....

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-puppy-stuff/259266-arched-back.html

btw for clarification the title of the thread is why I jumped in, it implies (probably not intentionally just misuse of a descriptive) a rather broad brush stroke regarding WGSLs which is also addressed in the above thread, sort of like the other meme going around that working lines are immune to hip dysplasia because they have 'straight backs'....and belated thanks to Q for sharing in that thread too.

OP good luck in your search for a new best buddy.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

The OP said they want slope, not arch, so however the term "roach" is defined we know what the OP wants. I just don't think there are decent breeders that are only selecting for slope and no arch, at least not WGSL.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> I just don't think there are decent breeders that are only selecting for slope and no arch, at least not WGSL.


Absolutely agreed. It's very frustrating trying to find a WGSL with no arch in the back. And if you DO find one, said dog is being bred to an animal with an arched back -_-


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## newtexas (Oct 22, 2013)

I think everyone knows exactly what the OP meant and find it ridiculous where this thread has gone. I would think that moderators and crowned members would just start a new thread if they want to talk about something instead of just turning the OPs question about finding a breeder to their own agenda. 21 post and 2 breeders listed.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

There aren't a lot of "roachless" GSD breeders that can be suggested, newtexas


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

The problem is that EVERYONE has an opinion....one thinks this way, the other another...
So, since opinions are simply that...."One person's perspective or idea"....threads like this go around and around in a never ending circle.

@ the OP....simply know what you like, want....and find a breeder that has the dog's that "fit" YOUR preference.....after all, YOU are the one who will have this puppy/dog as a partner/companion for many years to come.
There is no "right or wrong" opinion...another person's likes and dislikes should have no bearing on your own. 
Research breeders...contact them...network...READ...and you will be fine.
Best wishes!


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## CelticGlory (Jan 19, 2006)

Liesje said:


> You'll probably have to consider the individual dogs/litters, not the breeder. Most WGSL breeders I know of will have dogs that are varying degrees of that WGSL type depending on the specific breeding. I don't think Nikon is that roached and he has many titles and did SchH for several years, but his dam is not part of the program. You'd have to talk to the breeder and explain what you're looking for.


Liesje, he gets handsome every time I see him! He is one of my favorite!

I am seeing it vary as well depending on the parents. I have looked on websites where the mother has a nice straight topline or like Nikon, but the puppies because of the father end up with some overly roached backs. 

Also, I have seen pictures of litters of puppies and some of them as adults and the topline ended up looking like Nikon's. So I guess it depends.

Has anyone seen litters of puppies and adult that end up with a noticeable 'lump' (I'm thinking its the spine?) in the topline?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Robin good post and I AGREE)))


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

CelticGlory said:


> Liesje, he gets handsome every time I see him! He is one of my favorite!
> 
> I am seeing it vary as well depending on the parents. I have looked on websites where the mother has a nice straight topline or like Nikon, but the puppies because of the father end up with some overly roached backs.
> 
> ...


It can really vary and honestly I don't even know how to predict it. Since the WGSL type tends to favor a curved topline (the degree of the curve will depend on the breeder) I don't think it really CAN be accurately predicting, getting a puppy with a straight topline. If it's that important, probably better to look at American lines. Nikon's sire is very "type-y" and his back is probably "roached" based on how people normally use the term. His mother had more of a straight but sloping topline. The breeder helped me chose Nikon when he was almost 8 weeks. At that time I wanted a "sporty" dog (wasn't planning on SchH, more like agility, obedience with jumps, that sort of stuff) so we chose Nikon because of the three stock coated males he was the smallest and shortest coupled which is generally good for jumping and athleticism. At that time the exact degree of curve and/or slope of the back wasn't high on the criteria list. This is how he looked as a little squirt, this is basically what I saw when we made our picks and you can see the topline neither is perfectly straight sloping or drastically curved, he's a bit of both depending on the stack (same as those recent adult pics)


















As far as the lump do you mean a bump after the wither, or a "broken topline"? The latter is when the topline looks almost hinged, like it slopes at an even steeper angle after a certain point.


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## CelticGlory (Jan 19, 2006)

Yes, where the vertebrae is more noticeable in the end or the middle of the spine. The dog's I'm seeing have it at the end, right before the dog's hip area.

This dog has it further up, http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/userfiles/Excellent grandson Odin vom Holtkamperhof.jpg. When I first saw it I thought I was seeing things, but I noticed it on other dog's.


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## honeysdad (Oct 12, 2013)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I have to disagree. I do think a correct understanding what a 'roach' back is helps build knowledge thereby increasing chances of a person picking a fundamentally sound dog...
> 
> Then ... it's a matter of preference since GSDs are all over the place conformationally from ear sets to angulation and how much slope they have in the topline.
> 
> It is a very complicated breed.


This raises a good point. When you look at photos on the internet of "top" West German Showlines, the most glaring feature that is beyond most people's conception of what a German Shepherd Dog ought to look like is the curved back.

Oddly, some people argue that these dogs' backs are straight - in accordance with the breed standards. We can call that class of people the "curve-deniers" - mostly would-be "top" breeders and other aspirational sycophants of the SV, the German Shepherd governing body. I haven't heard many people argue that the curved back looks better - it seems to be more of a functional aspect, inherited from a group of "top" dogs or Siegers and Siegerins some decades ago. I believe the curved back has something to do with the gait of the dogs in the world-class shows where all those sycophants and ignorant hangers-on sit around going "Oooh!" and "Aaah!" because that's what they've been told to do.

What is clear is that as soon as the Sieger and other highly-ranked dogs have been announced, the inherent features of those winning dogs will become the inherent features of all prize dogs around the world - be it by direct breeding with the Sieger-Show winners, or by the selection of winners in local shows by international judges who must follow the lead of the SV.

The curved back of WG Show-Lines has been around for a few decades and is firmly ingrained. The likelihood of finding a Show-Line breeder who hasn't followed the trends is very slim.

A bigger question remains: "If a WG Show-Line had a straight back, would it look any less grotesque to the average person on the street?" That's where the other conformational aspects should come into consideration. You need to look at the shape of the head, the carriage of the head, the position of the front legs in relation to the body, and of course the hind-quarters and angulations of the hind legs. I agree with the other poster that the "top" dogs seem to be made up of two distinct parts - front and back - which are definitely not in harmony. I have gathered that the latest trend in world-class WG Show-Lines is the horribly wobbly hocks. It may add appeal to certain people when an adult dog is gaiting around a ring for ten or fifteen minutes, but it has left many a new puppy buyer wondering what's wrong with their dog. I don't think that having a straight back is the complete answer.

There was a time in the late 1970s when you could walk down the street with a German Shepherd or two and the average person in the street would stand in awe. These days the only people standing awe are the sycophants and other hangers-on.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

The word sycophant has now lost all meaning to me.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Actually most people today still stand in awe when I walk by. Or they scurry to the other side of the street even though my boy is very friendly. I don't have a WGSL but it doesn't matter, its a GSD. The average person couldn't tell the difference between a WGSL, WL, or ASL anyways. I get plenty of compliments on my working line's rear end, but its usually from people that don't know anything and think that a lower rear causes HD (which it doesn't).

It's not a trend...its the judges. That's what they look for. And yes, the "curved back" or lower rear end does make the dogs look better when in motion...which is a huge deal in conformation shows. It's the same reason that on American dogs you generally have more pronounced angles in the rear leg causing them to be lower and in extreme cases walk on hocks...when those dogs move, they do it more efficiently and it looks nicer to your regular conformation judge.

I think MOST breeds have a huge separation between what goes on in the show ring and what the puppy buyer thinks. I've seen labs with hips that are higher than their withers...and I think that looks terrible and unhealthy, and yet the dogs in the show ring have that. I personally think any dog that doesn't move with its rear legs in a straight line looks like its dysplastic...but there are plenty of breeds that have a wide walking stance.

Personally...there are a lot more physical faults I can find with a GSD than a curved back...unless its like the picture celticglory posted. But even that picture seems like its just a terrible stack.


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## honeysdad (Oct 12, 2013)

martemchik

I purposely didn't make a distinction between working and show lines because I was talking about the 1970s when GSDs like the following were winning the Sieger Shows



















I'm sure the people you meet would easily appreciate the difference between today's working and show lines if given a minute. I hope you try to explain.

You need to consider the unaware show-line puppy buyers who end up with a dog that looks nothing like they expected (but no less loved, I'm sure). I have been sneered at with my show-line, and I have certainly shaken my head when observing other show-lines around the streets.

I was trying to make the point that it is the judges who set the trends. I expect that many puppy buyers would make a priority of having titles in the pedigree. International specialty judges travel all around the world. The SV is the base of their training and accreditation, and they are required to follow the lead of the SV judges in Germany. Whatever wins at the SV Shows has a big influence around the world (talking specifically about what's usually referred to as German Showline).

After a little research, I found that one of the very early influential "curved-backs", Quando vom Arminius, was said to be "not an outstanding mover". One of his sons, Odin, was also said to be "not a good mover and rather apathetic". So, I'm not certain that the curved back is advantageous to the dogs' movement. Perhaps the judges in those days were looking for a different aspect of movement than the judges of today.
New Page 2


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## honeysdad (Oct 12, 2013)

Xeph said:


> The word sycophant has now lost all meaning to me.


Have you looked in the mirror lately? (Trying hard to ignore the heckler.)


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## Saxony (Mar 29, 2013)

Not sure where you are at check out Dyan in Texas. Adults with titles cost more, puppies are less.

Vom haus Merkel. 

http://http://www.hausmerkel.com/German_Shepherd_Puppies.htm


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## honeysdad (Oct 12, 2013)

It's OK. I know quite a few people who don't understand the definition of the word "pedigree". When I said "titles in the pedigree", I meant "titles in the *recorded ancestry*". Something to keep under your hat.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Saxony said:


> Not sure where you are at check out Dyan in Texas. Adults with titles cost more, puppies are less.
> 
> Vom haus Merkel.
> 
> http://http://www.hausmerkel.com/German_Shepherd_Puppies.htm


I would do so with caution


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## Markobytes (Sep 11, 2012)

I don't know of any breeder breeding for a roached back and I have never seen a SV judge place a dog ahead of another because it had a roach. Each individual dog varies structurally no matter what line it comes from. SV conformation judges get to see the dogs they are judging first hand, they see the dogs standing naturally, heeling off leash, pulling out under the load of a leash, they see the dog from the side, front, and rear, they can tell the conditioning of the dog and it's training, they get to see the dog's response to gun fire and in a Sieger show they see the bitework. They are familiar with the dogs deep in the pedigree and see what they are producing. Coming from a background of working dogs in obedience, protection, tracking and some of them herding, SV judges are in a position to know what a good dog is, you owe it to yourself and the dogs to base your judgements from first hand experience, see if the dog you see in a stacked picture really looks like that up close. I am hearing a lot of expert advice from those who don't seem to have much knowledge. One of the better posts observed the tendency for breeder recommendations to be limited to a relatively few contributors to this site. I am amazed for how large of an audience as this site has it keeps it's focus on a minuscule slice of available, good breeders. Those who use this site as their primary research tool are limiting themselves drastically from a lot of good breeders. This site seems at times to exist only for the benefit of three breeders. To it's credit once an opinion is asked of a particular breeder usually the advice is good. I hold my recommendations to breeders who I personally can evaluate their knowledge and ability, breeders who will stand behind their word, I also evaluate the quality of their dogs mentally and physically and I reserve recommendations to breeders who I have personally witnessed caring for their dogs, preferably seeing their kennels.

Markobytes


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