# My brother in law got a pet store gsd puppy :(



## TylerK454 (Feb 8, 2013)

So my brother in law got his puppy from a pet store. He refuses to believe that is probably came from a puppy mill. Does anyone know how he could find out where the pup came from?

I really like his puppy but am worried it will have severe problems. Has anyone ever owned a pet store shepherd?


----------



## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

many people get there first gsd from pet stores. many are just as healthy as from breeders. imho, whats done is done, let him enjoy his puppy and learn along the way. you could suggest some pet insurance.


----------



## TylerK454 (Feb 8, 2013)

huntergreen said:


> many people get there first gsd from pet stores. many are just as healthy as from breeders. imho, whats done is done, let him enjoy his puppy and learn along the way. you could suggest some pet insurance.


Do you know if it is possible to track where the pup comes from? Hes really attached so returning it is out of the question


----------



## swharshbar (Jan 18, 2013)

And sometimes they come from breeder that have "left covers" they want done with and sell to the stores for a discount. Not all come from puppy mills. Some stores actually do make sure the puppies come from good backgrounds. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

should be on the papers he rec'd with the puppy, but i haven't a clue. does it really matter at this point.


----------



## Sitz&Platz (Oct 20, 2012)

Is he microchipped? Does your brother have his Pedigree? If not, he can contact the Pet Store and ask for the name of the breeder. 

My Lab was a Pet Store puppy, healthy, beautiful with an amazing temperament. He lived with me for almost 11 years, and I couldn't have asked for a better dog. I did get the breeder info and Pedigree for him, and he was easy to track down.


----------



## TylerK454 (Feb 8, 2013)

Well at this no it doesn't really matter but both he and I want to know for sure.

The information:

Store: All About Puppies
Sire: Banjo #GS04012100
Dam: Shanna Sovix #GS04017312

Breeder: Donna Smith


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

he should have gotten some kind of registration papers / pedigree from the petstore , that would list the breeder/background of the dog.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

oops you were posting when I was posting.

Well that info right there , looks pretty much puppymill to me "Smith" is a pretty generic name, could be anybody.

The reg'd dogs name are pretty generic as well..All he can do is hope he's got a healthy one..

He can also reg'd the dog with AKC ( presume it's akc, most petstores around here have ACA reg'd dogs which is an org that will register "anything" which = not good)
and pay for a 5-10 generation pedigree to see what's behind the parents.


----------



## UnlimitedGSD (Oct 16, 2012)

No pet store puppies come from good breeders - if they were good breeders, they would never allow their puppies to be sold in a pet store where it simply takes a visa card to buy a puppy. 

What's done is done :-(


----------



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

I can't think of one reputable breeder that would ever allow their puppies to be sold to or from a puppy store. It's pretty safe to assume this is a puppy mill dog.

But, as mentioned, what's done is done. He's got the puppy now and it's probably just going to be a learning experience for him. Dog health insurance with hereditary coverage would be a good suggestion.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

It doesn't necessarily have to be a puppy mill dog. I have seen people who have accidental puppies, which would be a back yard breeder, but not puppy mill bring them to the pet store. Hopefully everything turns out okay.


----------



## Shaolin (Jun 16, 2012)

I went and checked the AKC website under the Dog Lookup...

There were no dogs listed under those names/numbers.

I even looked up my dog just to make sure I was doing everything correctly and he came back immediately. 

At this point, the best you can hope for is a happy and healthy puppy. Good luck and congrats on the pup.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

the puppy may not be akc registered, it could be a totally different registry


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Or if its young, maybe the paperwork didn't make it there yet?? I imagine that GSD's go pretty quickly at pet stores. I seen two at a pet store by me and oddly enough my GSD wasn't to interested in them or the poor golden doodle that had a hernia(that I pointed out to them)


----------



## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Even if the puppy's" paperwork" hasn't made it yet, if the puppy is AKC registerable, then both parents will already be in the database, since they have to be fully registered to be able to have registered puppies.
I would bet its either from another "pet" registry .


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Anyone think it's not a coincidence that the "registration" numbers start with GS, as in German shepherd?


----------



## Shaolin (Jun 16, 2012)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Anyone think it's not a coincidence that the "registration" numbers start with GS, as in German shepherd?


I wondered about that...actually. Finn's number starts out with DN...not sure what the first two letters mean if anything.


----------



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Shaolin said:


> I wondered about that...actually. Finn's number starts out with DN...not sure what the first two letters mean if anything.


Dog Number? :wild:


----------



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Shaolin said:


> I wondered about that...actually. Finn's number starts out with DN...not sure what the first two letters mean if anything.


Seriously, here is the info I found:
DL and DN are the AKC letter combinations for GSDs and SZ is the German registry. The numbers that follow are that dog's particular registration/identification number.

and an old thread
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/bloodlines-pedigrees/103706-akc-numbers-question.html


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Yeah neither of the parents have an AKC registration, and I don't believe its UKC either. If its any of the other "puppy mill registries" you'll probably never track anything down. Not only will there not be a central place to even call, but even if you do figure out a number I'm sure they won't have much information.


----------



## The Packman (Jan 31, 2011)

My sister bought a designer mix at a pet store (and paid a good buck) and has had him for over 5 years now. He has never had any health problems and is a very good dog. So, I think it would be unfair to label K-9s purchased thru a pet shop.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

swharshbar said:


> And sometimes they come from breeder that have "left covers" they want done with and sell to the stores for a discount. Not all come from puppy mills. Some stores actually do make sure the puppies come from good backgrounds.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


WRONG! 

People who care about their dogs do not let them be sold by a clerk in a pet store. You will NEVER get a dog, EVER from someone who cares about their dogs and puppies at a pet store. 

This does not mean that every dog sold at pet stores will be loaded with problems, hard to train, poor temperament. If it were so, it would make eliminating them that much easier. 

Just because someone does not have 1000 dogs does not mean they are not a puppy mill. Puppy mills are the lowest of the low when it comes to breeders. They can have a couple of dogs or hundreds of dogs. They cut corners wherever they can. But the big thing is they don't care what happens to their dogs when they have served their purpose. Only this kind of breeder COULD take dogs and drop them off to be sold to anyone who has enough room left on their VISA.


----------



## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

I didn't even know pet stores sell dogs anymore. In my over 30 years living in CA, I've never seen a pet store sell anything live but fish, birds, and rodents.


----------



## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Not all pet stores sell dogs from puppy mills, true. HOWEVER, every puppy that is not from a puppy mill is from a poor backyard breeder. I can't even imagine a responsible breeder selling to a pet store. Not knowing who gets their pup?

You may be able to trace it through the petstore, if it IS a local breeder (my sister-in-law "breeds" min pins and sells them to all the local pet stores  ) But it is unlikely. Start training now, get a good vet, put the dog on a proper diet, and deal with the rest when it comes.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Anubis_Star said:


> deal with the rest when it comes.


This may or may not happen. You really can't say it will, the dog might turn out great. If dogs from these stores didn't turn out okay, my guess is that they would be out of business, not selling more and more everyday.


----------



## AJT (Jun 20, 2012)

Gretchen said:


> I didn't even know pet stores sell dogs anymore. In my over 30 years living in CA, I've never seen a pet store sell anything live but fish, birds, and rodents.


plenty of stores on the east coast sell puppies. especially in new york city and in new jersey. my boyfriends brother goes to three of them on a routine basis on the weekends and is dying to buy a french bulldog to walk and carry around the upper west side/riverside.

for whatever reason people believe buying a dog from a pet shop is cheaper than going to a breeder. the small dogs or toy dogs are priced anywhere between 2k-3k while the larger breeds are priced from 1k-2k.


----------



## 1sttimeforgsd (Jul 29, 2010)

My nephew got his Corgi from a pet shop 8 or 9 yrs ago and has never once had a health problem with him. Maybe he was lucky, but not all pups coming from there are necessarily going to be a disaster. He also has a very good temperment and is a beautiful boy.


----------



## jae (Jul 17, 2012)

my dog is now 1yo and is from a pet shop.
Every day, I get comments on how great he looks, how behaved he is, how nice his temperament is, and what a good dog he is. 

Though I will admit I was ignorant on the subject, knowing what I know now, I would not do it again. The main reason being the $$$$$$$$$ **** THEY WANTED $1600 FOR HIM!!! 
But since he was 4mo in a puppy shop, they dropped the price in half, but let him go for less than half. how sweet of them. And I had no choice but to take him, he had been "returned" because he didn't bark, after a single night at his new home. 

He is my heart dog, for sure.


----------



## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

For all those thinking "good breeders will give to petstores" Or "dogs from petstores are just as good as breeders".. or "well, mine turned out perfect, so why not?"

Well.. you're more then welcome to come visit with Zira for a week, and we'll see where that opinion goes.

Not trying to "scare" the OP or anyone reading, but wanting to clarify that getting a dog from a petstore is not a good option, and if it's already done.... I would definitely keep an eye out for any health issues and temperament changes. I would also suggest hip/elbow xrays at 1-2yrs. Be aware of what you are up against before it turns into a problem.

Zira was rescued from a petstore back in 2011 (a week after Easter). And yes, she was rescued. We did not BUY her... we rescued her. Meaning we had police involved, a lawyer, better business bureau, AKC, etc. She was skin and bones, dead lame on her front leg... they had NO vet records or ANY plans on taking care of her leg (didn't even know what was wrong... tried to play it off as "oh she must have played too hard"), she had diarrhea, was on the wrong type of food for a growing GSD, and she was absolutely pathetic.

Anyway, to make a long story short.... this dog has allergies up the wazoo, skin issues, SIBO, HD, possible elbow problems, she had problems with her reproductive system (had to get her spayed mid heat cycle because the issues were so bad)...... and that's just the health issues we've discovered so far... seems like we add a few more each year. However, those we can work with.... good diet, medication, supplements, eventually surgery... The worst part is her nerves/temperament. She's mental. The dog has more fears then I've ever seen in an animal. The worst ones are water, and the sun (yes... the sun... the thing in the sky that is there every single darn day.... And no she has no eye issues... we've tested a million times) It started with the "fence monster" which lasted a few months.. then went to the sun. When she was younger... she would literally make herself pass out because we were trying to bathe her. We had to get professional help to get us to where we are now. It took me 1 year to be able to bathe the dog by myself. She still shakes, and cries, and throws mild fits here and there during the bath... but I'm able to tie her to the post and handle her myself now. She has terrible nerves.... she runs around my house doing the fearful crawl, shaking, barking and growing.... at nothing! She barks at random small noises of nature... that happen ALL day and night! If it's windy.... oh lord help us! We wont hear the end of it. She panics easily and at that point, she's impossible to handle. She's always stressed, always freaking out over something. She literally can't sit for 2 seconds before something else has her pacing the house. She doesn't have an off switch.... if she's out in the house, you will barely EVER see her laying down. She stresses my other dogs out because she just doesn't stop. I work her, I exercise her.... it doesn't help. She obsesses over everything. We've had Duke for over a year now... she STILL reacts to him like a normal dog would to a new dog. She wont leave him alone.... at all! He puts up with it, but it stresses him out and he ends up running and hiding under me. We were told "oh she'll get used to it.. it's just the new dog syndrome"... nope. It isn't. Over a year later... we're still trying to get her to leave him be. He'll play for 20 or so minutes, but then want to lay down... or follow us. She just doesn't leave it be. If she's not obsessing over him.... she's chewing on her bone.... which, if we let her (we don't), she will do the entire day even after she's caused damage and bleeding gums. She's quick to fall into that obsessive mode.

Her memory seems to be very off. You can correct her for something.... she'll stop.... sit for 5 seconds... go back and do it again. You correct her again.... she'll stop... 5 seconds later... again... and again.. and again. It's like having an 8 week old... but worse.. and for the life of the dog. I can't train her because she forgets.... literally... it's no longer there. She's only retained stuff we taught her as a small pup (sit, down, stay, come, leave it, and leash training). The vet can't find anything medically wrong there... it's just... Her. 

She's starting to become DA. Which, is not due to lack of socialization. She was highly socialized has a pup and through out her life. She used to get along with everyone. Now, there are certain dogs she will pick fights with. I can't trust her anymore. She flips so quick with things... it's like a light switch. She's completely mental.

There are many other things... but, I think this is enough to say... Be careful when you promote petstores as an "ok" place to get a puppy. For those that have dogs from them and they are stable: GREAT! I'm glad you got lucky... However, the dog next to yours may not have been so lucky. Zira was supposed to be PTS according to 5 different vets at 5-7 months old. I fought it, and continued on. She is a happy dog for the most part... but boy do we have some bad days. Remember when you support this practice... you are supporting puppy mills... and in turn... dogs that have to either lose their life, or suffer with all these issues. 

To the OP: You're BIL already has the dog... so there's nothing he can do there. But, he should understand what he should look out for. Many issues, if caught early, can be worked with (either medically, or mentally). We didn't know the full extent of what we were getting into... if we did, I'm sure I would have used some other methods, or medical plans. I'm NOT saying his dog is going to be the same as Zira... not all are... But, he should also be aware that next time he needs be careful where his money supports. I truly hope he's a lucky one and the dog turns out 100% normal.

(Just an FYI: If money is the reason, which is what I hear often... Most of the time these petstores are selling at an even higher price then the best breeders out there. Not only do you spend a lot... but you also get WAY to many chances for huge problems.)

For a well bred dog: $1250-2500....... Zira's first year (JUST medical bills): $6000.


----------



## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

TylerK454 said:


> So my brother in law got his puppy from a pet store. He refuses to believe that is probably came from a puppy mill. Does anyone know how he could find out where the pup came from?
> 
> I really like his puppy but am worried it will have severe problems. Has anyone ever owned a pet store shepherd?


Yes, my husbands family had 2 pet store shepherds. The last one lived happy and healthy 13 years and would of lived longer, but he had a fall injury and eventually his hip was giving out on him and he could not walk. But this was not genetic, it was from an injury and he was was much older to fully recover from it. He was a great dog and we really miss him. You really can't predict if there will be problems or not, but who knows, maybe he will be better than a pup from a breeder =) glad that he will have a good home!


----------



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

TylerK454 said:


> So my brother in law got his puppy from a pet store. He refuses to believe that is probably came from a puppy mill. Does anyone know how he could find out where the pup came from?


OP- to directly answer your question about if it's possible to track a pet store puppy back to a puppy mill or not: YES. 

I did it with my girl. See here: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/bloodlines-pedigrees/156223-tracing-pet-store-pup.html



TylerK454 said:


> I really like his puppy but am worried it will have severe problems. Has anyone ever owned a pet store shepherd?


For the record, my girl is a model GSD. Other than having [very easily managed] Atypical Addison's Disease, she has been generally healthy and has OFA good hips. She's EASY to live with, exceptionally good at agility and continues to earn not just titles and points, but rave compliments from people who watch us run and from EVERY SINGLE JUDGE we've competed under so far. She's titled in dock diving with a best jump of 13'10" and has shown basic instinct in herding. She's an amazing dog and I've been very lucky. No, not every pet store GSD is a nerve bag, unhealthy, unstable dog.


----------



## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

llombardo said:


> This may or may not happen. You really can't say it will, the dog might turn out great. If dogs from these stores didn't turn out okay, my guess is that they would be out of business, not selling more and more everyday.


You are correct, I should of said deal with the rest IF it comes. 

Zeke's from a BYB out of the newspaper. And he's great. I also got him at 7 weeks old and socialized him/trained him starting from day 1. He has had numerous health issues that are considered largely genetic. Panosteitis as a pup (there's much debate if this is genetic simply because the breed is prone to it), he has a genetic recurring staph infection on his nose that required 900$ worth of blood-work, a biopsy and histopathology to diagnose, he will require lifelong antibiotics for it, and he has mild hip dysplasia. As far as "poorly" bred dogs go, he is on the lucky end. That he has very few, mild problems. But day in and day out I see GSDs brought into the clinic that just look horrible. SEVERE HD/osteoarthritis, skin allergies, hot spots, etc...


----------



## UnlimitedGSD (Oct 16, 2012)

Simply put, if you buy a puppy from a pet store you are supporting puppy mills - end of story. Doesn't matter if the dog turns out to be the best thing ever - you are still supporting bad breeding. 

It is SO discouraging to read posts that say "well, I got my dog from a pet store and he's just the best...." - we need to STOP puppy mills and END bad breeding - not encourage it!! If you care about the breed you will support those breeders that are doing everything in their power to breed responsibly, ethically and with the good of the breed foremost in their minds. 

Get your dog from a reputable rescue organization or a responsible breeder - Pet Stores are never an alternative to these.


----------



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

UnlimitedGSD said:


> Simply put, if you buy a puppy from a pet store you are supporting puppy mills - end of story. Doesn't matter if the dog turns out to be the best thing ever - you are still supporting bad breeding.
> 
> It is SO discouraging to read posts that say "well, I got my dog from a pet store and he's just the best...." - we need to STOP puppy mills and END bad breeding - not encourage it!! If you care about the breed you will support those breeders that are doing everything in their power to breed responsibly, ethically and with the good of the breed foremost in their minds.
> 
> Get your dog from a reputable rescue organization or a responsible breeder - Pet Stores are never an alternative to these.


It should be *EN*couraging to read "well, I got my dog from a pet store and he's just the best..." At least not every dog coming out of a puppy mill is an unhealthy, unremarkable dog as "reputable" breeders would like us all to think. Am I pro puppy mills- absolutely not. But I won't hold the elitist position that the _only_ possible way to get a great dog is by supporting a breeder with a link to their kennel in their signature.

Not all of us were aware of super awesome breeders who link to their kennel in their signature on a dog forum  -let along were we aware of a DOG forum in the first place- when we got our dogs. I'm proud as **** to say that my pet store dog is HEALTHY, TITLED, and living a life probably more fulfilling than some dogs from "reputable" breeders are. And I won't for a second be made to feel guilty for my purchase. Not everyone has all the knowledge needed when making their buying decisions. And certainly not everyone was raised in a way to even be _aware_ of such buying options.

So how about instead of bashing those of us who made "poor" buying decisions by "supporting" puppy mills, you simply just stay on topic with what the OP asked-- which is how to track a pet store dog, and experiences with living with them.


----------



## BrianB (Oct 26, 2011)

Whats done is done, enjoy the dog. Buying from a pet shop does not guarantee a bad dog just like buying from a breeder doesnt guarantee a good dog.

I know a few people that have bought GSDs from so called reputable breeders and have had nothing but problems and little response from the breeder. I have also seen people recommend breeders on forums that shipped them a dog and they had never visited the breeder and I happened to be close and went and checked them out and they were a backyard breeder. A fancy website and good talker on the phone does not make a good breeder.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

wildo said:


> It should be *EN*couraging to read "well, I got my dog from a pet store and he's just the best..." At least not every dog coming out of a puppy mill is an unhealthy, unremarkable dog as "reputable" breeders would like us all to think. Am I pro puppy mills- absolutely not. But I won't hold the elitist position that the _only_ possible way to get a great dog is by supporting a breeder with a link to their kennel in their signature.
> 
> Not all of us were aware of super awesome breeders who link to their kennel in their signature on a dog forum  -let along were we aware of a DOG forum in the first place- when we got our dogs. I'm proud as **** to say that my pet store dog is HEALTHY, TITLED, and living a life probably more fulfilling than some dogs from "reputable" breeders are. And I won't for a second be made to feel guilty for my purchase. Not everyone has all the knowledge needed when making their buying decisions. And certainly not everyone was raised in a way to even be _aware_ of such buying options.
> 
> So how about instead of bashing those of us who made "poor" buying decisions by "supporting" puppy mills, you simply just stay on topic with what the OP asked-- which is how to track a pet store dog, and experiences with living with them.



I think most of the people on this thread DID say, what is done is done, and it is probably not the end of the world. I said that if all puppy mill puppies had awful stuff wrong with them we could stop them easier. 

But when people were saying that not all dogs sold at pet stores are from puppy mills, I couldn't let that pass. There is no set definition of a puppy mill. My definition of a puppy mill is someone who is producing puppies with no regards to what happens to them. The ONLY kind of person who could drop puppies at a pet store to be sold by a stranger whenever or disposed of if they do not sell quick enough is a someone who fits my definition of a puppy mill. That person could have hundreds of bitches and litters per year, or one bitch who got knocked up. Doesn't matter. Someone has to really not give a patootie what happens to the pup to leave them at a pet store.


----------



## Jo_in_TX (Feb 14, 2012)

One of the female GSDs I see at the dog park was purchased at a pet store and is about three years old now, beautiful, and healthy, although quite a bit smaller than average. 

The owner has gone on and one about how he has learned his lesson about buying from a pet store, but now wants to... breed his female. argghhhh I tried to leave him with the idea that there doesn't seem to be a market for small GSDs, but he seems to think differently.


----------



## yardsale (Nov 3, 2011)

For crying out loud you people, is it the poor dogs fault it came from a pet store? Let the little guy have chance at a happy life!


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

yardsale said:


> For crying out loud you people, is it the poor dogs fault it came from a pet store? Let the little guy have chance at a happy life!


Here's the thing, you're new here so maybe you do not know this. 

When you buy a puppy from a pet store, that pup may be healthy and it may be a wreck. But that is the least of OUR (collective) responsibility. Immediately the call is made to refill that cage in the pet store. The supplier then orders another German Shepherd puppy. And the scum-breeders rush to fill the order. They probably look daily at the demand for puppies of all kinds and that will make them decide whether kill or breed an older bitch again, to dump an older bitch on the side of the road to make room in the little chicken-wire poo-filled cages to put in a bitch of a breed that sells better. 

The dogs that live in these ****-holes have terrible lives. And buying from pet stores is what condemns these dogs to stay in these conditions. These are generally the kennels that fall under agriculture, USDA, because there are literally hundreds of dogs sometimes in a single building. The dogs are kept on wire so the waste can fall through onto the floor below where a sweeper will then shuffle it down and out. They do not leave these cages. They do not get groomed or their toenails clipped. Sometimes screw-drivers are shoved down their throats to mute the barking. Oftentimes the stink will knock you down. And dogs have such powerful noses. They will have skin conditions and open sores. 

This is why we don't condone buying from pet stores. On occasion a cold jerk might sell a litter that was an oops to a pet store, but most people who really do not care about what happens to a litter of puppies, will dump them on a shelter when they start producing tons of poop. The people who care about the puppies, who care about their dogs, these people will want to meet the people who buy the puppies. They will want to know they are not landing as a bait dog, or as a lab rat. They will want to meet the people. If they really don't care where the dogs go at the end of the day, why would they care about the things like keeping them clean, giving them a good start, playing with them, feeding them good food, making sure they don't have worms? So it is possible that the puppies will not come from the high volume puppy farms, but really the chances that you get one raised in a home are pretty much slim to none.

I remember walking through a chain-pet-store, and seeing the puppies there. And the clerk came up to me, and asked me if I wanted to see one. And I said no, I won't buy a puppy because I know where they come from. This guy assured me up and down that they come from excellent local breeder. He LIED to me, flat out. A few weeks later it was on the news, exactly where that chain of stores got their puppies, and also the problems the people were having with the puppies. 

People go into the stores and see the poor puppies in the tiny little cages, and many just want to rescue them. The stores are counting on this for their sales. They are playing on people's charity and humanity to empty those tiny cages. And when people do the fuel the whole bloody system. They do not realize how they are condemning the animals in the farms. 

We talk a lot here about breeder-red-flags. We condemn just about every sort of breeder without thinking about it. He doesn't do hip and elbow x-rays, he feeds cheap grocery store food, he has grass in the water dish. But the vast majority of these people are _probably _not that bad. They are probably breeding for the wrong reasons, and they maybe do not have every check on the should-I-breed-my-dog-flow chart, they will not make a fortune on puppies, maybe they will have one or two litters, but it just isn't lucrative enough for most people to keep going. 

The thing about the farms is that they are selling to middlemen litters at something like $50 a pup. The middlemen then disperse the puppies to various shops, transporting them in horrid conditions and they get a cut. The stores jack the prices up to often higher than what respected breeders charge, while the pups have had none of the background, quality, thought that good breeders put in their pups, and provide with their pups. 

The guy who decided to breed his bitch to the dog down the street and sells the puppies for $500 each times seven puppies, has $3,500 at the end of the day (or 17 weeks). He might do it again. It's a lot of poop, and there is some expense, but most of the work is done by the bitch, and some of them sell the puppies early, and they can because people like small puppies. He might do it again, he might not. It might be worth it. It might not. It will depend on many factors. 

But the guy that is selling whole litters at $50 per, is making money hand over fist. Why? Because he has 700 bitches, and maybe 50 dogs. He breeds them every time they come into season. All 700, even the one with three legs. If you figure only half of them conceive that's 350 litters in six months. 700 litters per year. At an average of 7 pups per litter, that's 4,900 puppies at $50 each which is about $245,000 dollars per year, take away a what it costs to feed 750 dogs the cheapest junk you can. 

How many people does it take to care for 750 dogs? 

Well, what they do is they will fill a feeder up with enough food for a week or so. They have them poop through the wire, they do not exercise them, They contrive interesting method of having the poo get eliminated with the least amount of human intervention. Sometimes they just leave it under the rabbit hutches. So just a man and his wife can manage 750 dogs. If one gets sick then it might get to be too much. But if you have an automatic watering system, poo management system, and refill the feeders just one day in 7, you only need to go out and feed 107 dogs per day. It's a pretty good pay check for two people, dontcha think? Of course you have to pay the lease or mortgage, and I am sure they have their expenses as well. 

Anyhow, this is why the OP is probably disgusted with his family member, and worried about the puppy. 

If the humane society of the United States and the government wanted to eliminate puppy mills, they would make it illegal to sell puppies at pet stores. But they don't. HSUS is an organization that NEEDS puppy mills to drive their donations. They need hoarding situations and natural disasters so that people will give give give money to them. The vast majority of the money given, something like 95% does not go to any animal in need, it goes to salaries of lawyers and lobbyists, and the people in the organization. It is like a crazy cult-religion where the masses really have no idea what is happening, and they just keep giving and doing and selling, while the higher ups keep raking it all in. And to question it, well, you are horrible, you are not a bleliever, you hate little animals, fiend! So they pass stupid laws that do very little to end puppy mills. They continue to sell them in stores. And now the internet can be another method for selling puppies where the organization is unseen and unaccountable. All the government cares about is that they get their share of it. If you are selling over the net, we still want our cut. 

Uhg! kind of vented there a bit.


----------



## UnlimitedGSD (Oct 16, 2012)

THANK YOU!

it is sometimes hard for people to separate puppy from breeder. 

Selzer, thank you for taking the time to write that out!


----------



## vicky2200 (Oct 29, 2010)

Here is my opinion on the matter and my advice fir the OP:

You will never stop puppy mills and BYB's by not buying puppies from the pet stores or by discouraging others from it because you will never get enough people to care enough to stop buying them. Never. Too many people don't really care about their dog's health and just want a convenient friend. Too many people think they are "just a dog." I do not support irresponsible breeding, but I think that the only way the mills will be stopped is if it is enforced through law (it is clearly ignored a lot of the time).

I know for a fact that some puppies in the stores come from hobby breeders. Many of you do not support hobby breeders, but I am not necessarily opposed to them. I have a dog who came from a pet store. He is from a hobby breeder. The lady had good intentions, a good environment for the dogs, the dogs had good vet care, and they were cared for. They just don't have a well researched pedigree. Personally, I see nothing wrong with this. 

To the OP: there probably is a way to find out where the dog came from, but there is no point. It doesn't matter if the dog is from a back yard breeder, a hobby breeder, or a puppy mill. The dog is part of your brother in laws life now and hopefully he chooses to care for the dog, regardless of if the dog develops medical problems (related or unrelated to poor breeder).


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Boy, we have so many definitions for the same terminology. 

For me, a hobby breeder is someone who has a number of dogs. They know those dog inside and out. They spend ALL their money on their dogs. They show, go to classes, go to seminars, go to dog-clubs, training clubs. Dogs are their life, not necessarily their livelihood. Although some hobby breeders may be making money on selling dogs, good dogs, with excellent pedigrees and credentials. 

A hobby breeder in my definition CANNOT sell a dog at a pet store. This is because a hobby breeder will want to know where these dogs are so that they can follow up. Seeing pretty puppies at six or eight weeks old tells you NOTHING about your breeding program. You need to get feedback. A hobby breeder will know a lot of their pups names, and can tell you where they are located, may have visited them. 

Hobby breeders preserve the breed. They are what we want people to be. They know the dogs behind their dogs. They hold back dogs and grow them out and may breed from them. They do not sell dogs at pet stores. No way, no how.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

German Shepherds are not a breed that should be sold willie nilly to anyone who has enough money on a visa to pay for it. Good breeders will try to match the right puppy to the right dog. A minimum wage teenager just can't do that with dogs that he does not own. His boss tells him, the man says German Shepherd Dog, sell him one. That's how it goes. 

Some breeders will let people choose their puppy, but they at least ensure that the owner has dog-experience, particularly working dog experience before they consider selling to them. That doesn't happen in a pet store. You just cannot care about the puppies if you dump them to be sold like that. It isn't possible.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I don't know of one hobby breeder that sells to pet stores around here..Everytime you go in one with purebred puppies and they show you the papers, they are Joe Smoe from 'wherever' who's bred them


----------



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I think Vicky meant BYB, not hobby.


----------

