# Weaving - Learn 2 Ways?



## Stellae (May 13, 2011)

Sprocket and I started agility classes last week. It's a lot of fun! He's familiar with most of the equipment (minus teeter and poles), which puts him miles ahead of our classmates, but he's still having fun and we can do more work on focus/attention.


As I said though - he doesn't know teeter or weave poles, because I didn't know how to teach him (properly) when we had easy access to equipment. Now we don't have that access, our training facility is an hour away, and we live in an 800 sq. ft. apartment with no backyard - so my ability to have/store/use equipment at home is really limited.


In class, our teacher set up 12 poles with guide wires and gates. She holds the leash and we call the dog from the end - and she stops them from jumping the wires, etc. (or tries - my boy's a little much for her :wild


I want to practice weaving at home - he really seems to like it, is picking it up quick, and I know that if we could do it more than 4 times a week, he would do really well. But... I really don't want to deal with gates and guide wires (transporting, setting up, taking down, storing). 


Will I confuse the heck out of him if we do 2x2s (or 2x2s set up as channels) at home? That seems like something I _might_ be able to manage storing. Or is it better to just leave weaving to class, and hope the teacher has some plan about how to wean the dogs off of gates/wires in only 4 runs/week?


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Stellae said:


> Will I confuse the heck out of him if we do 2x2s (or 2x2s set up as channels) at home?


What I think will confuse him more is what the heck he's doing wrong when you take them guide wires down and he no longer has a clue what you want. Guide wires don't allow him to think on his own; in my opinion, they are nothing more than luring. That's not learning.

If you want to not confuse him, then setup criteria that is easily attained and build up from there. The 2x2 method of training weave poles has exploded in popularity because it does just that- you start easy with attainable criteria and let the dog make the choice to perform your desired criteria. THEN you can up the criteria by adding more poles.

I was floored by how well my dog responded to the 2x2 method.

*[EDIT]*- I guess I would add that I have heard of mixing methods _after_ the weave performance has been learned. I've heard of using the 2x2s to establish proper entry and the general concept, and then adding channel weaves as a way to build speed and footwork.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

By the way, there is a ton of info (especially info on beginning 2x2 training) in this recent thread:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/agility/178329-2x2-weaves-i-think-ive-screwed-up.html


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

wildo said:


> What I think will confuse him more is what the heck he's doing wrong when you take them guide wires down and he no longer has a clue what you want. Guide wires don't allow him to think on his own; in my opinion, they are nothing more than luring. That's not learning.


 I agree with this. I really don't like the use of extra "props" for teaching weaves. A lot of dogs seem confused by what you want them to do (mine always try to jump the wires LOL) and it can be really hard to wean them off the guides once they learn the weaves with them on. I also don't like that the dogs have to be corrected for trying to jump the wires or whatever at the start. Channels can work well, 2x2s can work well and both are IMO a better way to teach them. I wouldn't worry much about mixing the 1x a week practice method with your home practice method either, providing the class practice is all fun and motivational. If he gets stressed because he wants to get to you and can't because he isn't doing the poles right, that isn't so good. If you have doubts, just skip it until he gets the hang of the weaves at home.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

I also don't like using the guidewires on the weaves. Just another thing we teach and then remove so the visual picture is different and the dog needs to learn all over again.


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## Stellae (May 13, 2011)

Yes, I totally agree about guidewires on weaves - I was pretty disappointed when they pulled those out instead of channel weaves or a weave-o-matic or 2x2s. I want my boy to learn to think through the weaves, which is why I love what I've read on the threads here (and elsewhere) about 2x2s (including the thread you linked to Wildo!). I am also aware that he struggles with the kind of phase out of initially critical equipment used when learning with guides.

I intend to get the DVD, and I'll probably also suck it up and buy a set of 2x2 poles with steel bases from Clean Run (unless I can find someone with equipment/ability to weld bases for me).

At this facility, to advance to the next class (beginner, vs. this intro class) the dogs have to be able to negotiate the weave poles (with guidewires is ok). Given we've finished 2/6 classes, should I just keep doing things as in class, not worry about the weaves (let him do them, but don't push it?) and then take a 6-week break to teach 2x2s at home? Or can I start teaching 2x2s at home, now, without confusing him, since the setup will look so different?

I don't really like my instructor for this class. She's very low energy, and all the foundation work and stuff we do, she seems to be about pushing the dog into it, rather than encouraging them to think about it (ie. use a clicker - though she's happy to let me use mine in class). Unfortunately, she's the only instructor at this facility that offers intro classes -after- work. Also, to be fair, I think I'm bored as I've done a lot of foundation work with Sprocket already (targeting, perch work, working on both sides). Maybe my boredom is causing me to view her in a poorer light than is fair.


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## JayneA (Jun 11, 2002)

We taught our recent pups on both channels and 2x2. Channels for action and 2x2s for the entry. Then as we started to close the channel we added more pairs of weaves on, so I think it can work.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Stellae said:


> I intend to get the DVD, and I'll probably also suck it up and buy a set of 2x2 poles with steel bases from Clean Run (unless I can find someone with equipment/ability to weld bases for me).


I don't think you will be disappointed. I've said it multiple times, and I'll say it again- Susan Garrett has some of the best training DVDs available for agility. She is incredibly clear in her communication to you (the audience) describing in detail exactly what she wants you to do, and exactly how to do it. She also usually has a troubleshooting section as well (which the 2x2 DVD does have). I think it's a good investment.

As to weave poles with welded steel bases, I made my own using standard steel pieces available from Lowes. I can take a few measurements tonight and PM you. You should be able to take it to any fabrication shop and get some made pretty cheaply. 



Stellae said:


> At this facility, to advance to the next class (beginner, vs. this intro class) the dogs have to be able to negotiate the weave poles (with guidewires is ok). Given we've finished 2/6 classes, should I just keep doing things as in class, not worry about the weaves (let him do them, but don't push it?) and then take a 6-week break to teach 2x2s at home? Or can I start teaching 2x2s at home, now, without confusing him, since the setup will look so different?


I'd say just give the 2x2 method a shot. You will be floored how fast your dog picks it up. Do *SHORT* sessions (no more than five mins each! Seriously- set an egg timer!) three or four times a day. In just a few days, you will be miles ahead of where you are now. (Assuming you maintain clear communication and criteria to your pup.)



Stellae said:


> I don't really like my instructor for this class. She's very low energy, and all the foundation work and stuff we do, she seems to be about pushing the dog into it, rather than encouraging them to think about it (ie. use a clicker - though she's happy to let me use mine in class). Unfortunately, she's the only instructor at this facility that offers intro classes -after- work. Also, to be fair, I think I'm bored as I've done a lot of foundation work with Sprocket already (targeting, perch work, working on both sides). Maybe my boredom is causing me to view her in a poorer light than is fair.


Been there, done that:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/agility/153689-questioning-instructors.html
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/agility/153235-standard-protocol-advancing-agility-school.html

It's hard. It's really hard. If you are bored in class, you won't feel like you're getting your money's worth. There's a fine line between class availability and class usefulness. I maintain that class environments are really great for socialization and more importantly, for training in a _different_ environment. Your dog may be a superstar in the backyard, but the moment they step into that agility ring- that's a brand new environment. I think classes are good for this reason.

Even though I disliked my old instructor (the one mentioned in that thread), I am great friends with her now and very much value her opinion. Her dogs are excellent and she does have a lot of knowledge in the sport. In a class environment, she has no choice but to tailor to the "average." That's what classes do... I'd gladly go back and train with her one-on-one.

I guess, to sum it up- I'd just say hang in there. I sincerely believe that the sport of agility is as big as you want it to be. If you want, every new door opened reveals five other new doors. Learning one technique may change your opinion of three other areas. _Or..._ you just go with it and have a good time accomplishing whatever you accomplish. I think AgileGSD said it best in a different thread:



AgileGSD said:


> Agility DVDs are largely not just for people who do agility but people who have a strong interest in learning as much as they can about agility training.


Reference.

I think that concept applies to agility in general. There are people who do agility, and people who _love_ agility training. There's nothing wrong with either- you just need to find a balance of where you want to fall. In a group class, you have to realize that the majority of practitioners are certainly the former, not the latter.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

My weave poles are on 24" centers with 3/4" square stock welded vertically to support 1" PVC poles. The 3/4" square stock is cut 6" long. The base is made out of 3" flat stock that is 3/16" thick. The legs are welded on orthogonal to the weave line and are 9" long.

I put a tongue on mine so that they could be screwed together to form one base of six poles. The tongue is cut to length such that it will but against the back of the next set and maintain the 24" (on center) spacing. I then just made a coupler plate to hook the sets together.

I'll draw a quick sketchup shortly.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Here you go:


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## Stellae (May 13, 2011)

wildo said:


> I don't think you will be disappointed. I've said it multiple times, and I'll say it again- Susan Garrett has some of the best training DVDs available for agility. She is incredibly clear in her communication to you (the audience) describing in detail exactly what she wants you to do, and exactly how to do it. She also usually has a troubleshooting section as well (which the 2x2 DVD does have). I think it's a good investment.


Here's hoping! I ordered the DVD from Clean Run today, after having read a lot of your fangirling of her 




wildo said:


> Even though I disliked my old instructor (the one mentioned in that thread), I am great friends with her now and very much value her opinion. Her dogs are excellent and she does have a lot of knowledge in the sport. In a class environment, she has no choice but to tailor to the "average." That's what classes do... I'd gladly go back and train with her one-on-one.
> 
> I guess, to sum it up- I'd just say hang in there. I sincerely believe that the sport of agility is as big as you want it to be. If you want, every new door opened reveals five other new doors. Learning one technique may change your opinion of three other areas. _Or..._ you just go with it and have a good time accomplishing whatever you accomplish.


Oh, totally. I know the classroom experience is important, and I know Sprocket is getting a lot out of it even though he's so far ahead of our classmates. This week we played LAT with the scary fan flaps in the roof of the building - we missed our turn on the dogwalk, but he stopped barking at and freaking out about the fan!

Honestly, even at this level, I'm loving it enough that one boring class won't put me off it. It's also not exactly the first time I've been bored in a "classroom", though admittedly it's a different experience to have my dog there too!  I'm one of those people who loves the training (which is good, because Sprocket needs something to keep his mind busy :crazy.



wildo said:


> My weave poles are on 24" centers with 3/4" square stock welded vertically to support 1" PVC poles. The 3/4" square stock is cut 6" long. The base is made out of 3" flat stock that is 3/16" thick. The legs are welded on orthogonal to the weave line and are 9" long.
> 
> I put a tongue on mine so that they could be screwed together to form one base of six poles. The tongue is cut to length such that it will but against the back of the next set and maintain the 24" (on center) spacing. I then just made a coupler plate to hook the sets together.
> 
> I'll draw a quick sketchup shortly.


Dude, that's awesome! Thanks for those dimensions. I have a couple questions though... 
-Why did you go with the removable coupler plate instead of the welded one? 
- Is there a reason you chose steel over aluminium (I assume it's because you have a MIG welder?) I'm considering aluminium over steel because of the weight, since I will be constantly lugging these things up and down the stairs to my apartment. Though I suppose that will also make them less stable if I get Sprocket really driving through the poles. Thoughts?
- Is it neccessary to have 12 poles right away (or at home at all)? Can I get by with 6, at least initially?


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Stellae said:


> -Why did you go with the removable coupler plate instead of the welded one?


Because if I am only working one or two sets (which means the 2x2s are offset), that would put a raised chunk of metal in my dog's foot path. By being able to remove the connector, it's true that there is still a "tongue" sticking out there, but at least it's extremely low profile.



Stellae said:


> - Is there a reason you chose steel over aluminium (I assume it's because you have a MIG welder?) I'm considering aluminium over steel because of the weight, since I will be constantly lugging these things up and down the stairs to my apartment. Though I suppose that will also make them less stable if I get Sprocket really driving through the poles. Thoughts?


Actually, I do _not_ have a MIG (or TIG) welder, which is the reason they are made out of steel over aluminum. Had I had a welder of that type, I'd probably have made them from aluminum- and probably regretted it big time. The base needs to be heavy since the dog is driving through. Aluminum poles move around quite a bit when not taped or staked down. Although I still stake down my steel ones, they don't _have_ to be staked.



Stellae said:


> - Is it neccessary to have 12 poles right away (or at home at all)? Can I get by with 6, at least initially?


Nope! You should only need 4 poles (two sets) total to get going.




Stellae said:


> Here's hoping! I ordered the DVD from Clean Run today, after having read a lot of your fangirling of her


Actually, I _think_ the term would be fanboying since I'm a guy- though I've always found the term a bit too flamboyant for my use.


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## Stellae (May 13, 2011)

wildo said:


> Actually, I do _not_ have a MIG (or TIG) welder, which is the reason they are made out of steel over aluminum. Had I had a welder of that type, I'd probably have made them from aluminum- and probably regretted it big time. The base needs to be heavy since the dog is driving through. Aluminum poles move around quite a bit when not taped or staked down. Although I still stake down my steel ones, they don't _have_ to be staked.


Ahh, see -- my (super super limited) experience is that welding aluminium on a MIG is hard enough that most don't bother with it (I'm a mechanical engineer, and much as I'd love to do more hands-on fabrication, my work is all design - the guys in the shop decide how best to fabricate parts, and have all the best toys to do it with). 

I totally understand what you're saying about the weight and how they would move - I just don't have the experience to _know_ how much the movement would be. Thanks though - I'll probably end up going with steel. I found a couple of local fabrication shops, hoping to contact them this week for quotes! As I mentioned above, I ordered the DVD today, and I know I'll want to start ASAP after watching it (well, parts I'm sure).




wildo said:


> Actually, I _think_ the term would be fanboying since I'm a guy- though I've always found the term a bit too flamboyant for my use.


Picky, picky... I've always thought of it as more of a gender-neutral term :tongue: But I totally get what you're saying about the flamboyant-ness of it!


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