# Neutered/Spayed Pups Suddenly Fighting



## emcale (Jul 9, 2017)

Two days ago, our 7-month-old male (Mac) and female (Tasha) were spayed/neutered. I know about littermate syndrome and so far these two have not shown signs of that.

But since they've been "fixed," they've gotten into a huge fight once a day since the surgery. Yesterday and today. Today the fight happened over a toy. The fight was started by Mac. Yesterday the fight was started by Tasha when Mac was trying to initiate play with her and she apparently didn't want to.

Before their surgery, I can count twice they got into a huge fight. Both times it was because they were tired and cranky and were bothered by other dogs. But fighting like this with each other on back-to-back days is worrisome and unusual behavior for them.

I want to know if this is a coincidence, or if the surgery has something to do with their behavior change. As you know, we're having to keep them indoors all day except for bathroom breaks, which is probably giving them cabin fever, as they are used to going outside multiple times a day to play. 

Could it be they're just frustrated that they can't go outside? Is aggression actually worse after spay/neuter? Do they smell differently to each other after the surgery and they just don't know what to do? Is littermate syndrome starting and the surgery is just a coincidence? I have no idea. 

The fights have been scary both times and thankfully my husband was here to break it apart. But I'll be by myself with them during the day for the work week, and I'm worried I won't be able to break apart a fight. 

Any suggestions on re-homing or crating them is off the table. We can't re-home or crate in our situation. Any other suggestions?


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Can't crate? You're up a creek then. 

If you want to keep both dogs. This is a crate and rotate situation. 

But yes... They are GSDs. They NEED exercise to be emotionally healthy. Yes, there has been plenty of studies out there that have shown increases of aggression after spaying/neutering (especially in bitches) due to hormonal imbalance, I doubt it's hormones being the cause here since there will still be residuals this close to surgery, but pain and discomfort could be coming into play. You are also at the age where the fighting aspect of littermate syndrome will be starting...

I would bet my house on this is behavior escalating.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Baby gates are another option.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

When you spay a dog, that is major surgery and nothing to play with. Both of your dogs can be seriously harmed if you allow this to continue. They need to be kept quiet and given opportunity to heal. Don't you have any thing you can tie your dogs to such as a couch leg or a door knob to keep them separated until they have had time to heal? Does your bathroom have a door on it? Keeping one in the bathroom and rotating will work as well.


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## emcale (Jul 9, 2017)

@voodoolamb - I'm repeating what you said so I understand. What has happened is a combination of pain/discomfort as well as being around the age where littermate fighting starts. The behavior will also escalate with time. If this is true and the behavior will escalate, I need some practical tips to help with this. 

We're keeping both dogs unless (I guess) something terrible happens. Unfortunately, it might have to come to that because my husband will NOT re-home one. I can barely keep them separated during the day, much less crate. Where we're staying there is no room for a crate, and it will be at least a year until our situation will change as well. 

The roommate we are staying with has male littermates (now 5 years old) and I don't see this behavior in them. And she has not trained them or socialized them well. I'm doing a heck of a lot more work with my dogs than she's done with hers, and hers have turned out fine. Surely there's hope for us.
@dogma13 - No baby gates in our weekday house either. No easy way to separate them, from each other or from the other 5 dogs we live with on the weekdays.

So, so far, I'm hearing that basically we're screwed...? At some point, they'll either hurt each other or us and based on the stipulations I'm putting on all of you on the advice, there's no way to prevent it. Is that right? Will somebody please talk to my husband and convince him to re-home one or both of them? PLEASE?!


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## emcale (Jul 9, 2017)

@MineAreWorkingline - I understand they had major surgery and I should take great care to help them heal. I'm trying my very best. This has only been ONE fight each day. It's not like they're running around like crazy all day. I'm trying to keep them calm and rested as much as possible, but it is very hard with no crate and no support from the people around me. I'm doing my best.

Sure, there's a bathroom with a door on it in our weekend house that we can use to separate, but we can't do that in our weekday house. The bathroom is used by the roommate as well, so that's just not realistic in our situation. 

Also, since the roommate has 5 dogs of her own, we can't separate them from her dogs very easily either. She has very little control over hers, so I don't trust that I can tether one in the living room while keeping the other in our bedroom. The tethered one will be bothered by the other dogs throughout the day. We have a tiny bedroom we're staying in that I can shut the door, but they have to be in there together. 

I know this is not a fair living situation for our dogs (or for us for that matter), but it is what it is. And I'm basically by myself to deal with it during the day. I'm hoping somebody can tell me that the behavior WON'T escalate and can be managed and people in similar situations have been successful. I really need to hear that right now. Otherwise, I might be dead by the time this is over and done with, most likely from stress


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

I'm honestly just curious and not trying to make you feel bad or judge, but why did you decide to get not just one, but TWO, German shepherd puppies in a situation like yours? It sounds very tough to even have one dog, let alone a puppy, let alone a GSD, let alone two!! Haha


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## emcale (Jul 9, 2017)

OK, another question. Let's say that I find a way to separate them throughout the day in our weekday house. Are they separated all day? Do I let one at a time out to at least train with me a little bit where they're not tethered or shut off all day? Or do they only need to be let out for potty breaks and the rest is secluded in a room? 

Mine are used to a lot of interaction with me during the day. Actually, pretty much constant interaction. I'm with them all morning and afternoon. If the above scenario is what I need to do during this recovery time, this will be a major change for them and I'm afraid would be more harmful than helpful. I could see them getting very agitated and anxious without having interactions during the day. Just a thought...


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## emcale (Jul 9, 2017)

@Pytheis - Oh, I know. It was NOT my idea to get two. I was completely against it. I actually didn't even want ONE dog, and was convinced by my husband to get one (the male). But he was convinced by a family member that it would be "so cute" to have a brother and sister *gagging sounds from me*. And I was dumb and trusted my husband that he knew what he was doing, but he didn't, and I have been the one to do the most work with them.

So, yeah, there is absolutely no reason on earth to get two pups at a time. I wish I would have put my foot down 5 months ago when we got them. I've been hanging by a thread ever since then. Nobody should EVER get two puppies at the same time!! 

Sorry to go on a rant there...

Also, when we got them, we were NOT in the situation we're in now. That happened because of a sudden life change we couldn't predict.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

It should be possible to keep them from fighting if you're with them in your bedroom. If you can't be with them, couldn't you tie them up such that they can't reach each other? Unlike others, I don't see it as inevitable that this aggression between them will escalate. Sounds more like a combination of pain or discomfort from their recent surgery, coupled with a lack of exercise. I would expect it to diminish once they've healed enough to get more exercise...But that will take time. In the meantime just remove the opportunity to fight as much as possible...just my opinion...


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

So you want advice, but have an excuse for why you can't do that?


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

emcale said:


> @voodoolamb - I'm repeating what you said so I understand. What has happened is a combination of pain/discomfort as well as being around the age where littermate fighting starts. The behavior will also escalate with time. If this is true and the behavior will escalate, I need some practical tips to help with this.


The problem is the only sure fire tips to help this is - crate and rotate or rehome. 

This isn't something training is going to fix. This isn't something that playing ball 10 hours a day will fix. This isn't something that calming treats and diffusers will fix. This isn't something pills from your vet will fix. 

These are ANIMALS. Animals fight. Adolescent animals especially. Littermates exasperate the problem.

Some dogs are passive and get along fine with others and never start anything. YOU DON'T HAVE THOSE TYPE OF DOGS. You have 4 fights under your belt in 5 months time (assuming you got the pups at 8 weeks). It's going to continue and it is going to get WORSE as the pups get bigger, stronger, and more mature. 

There will be blood. 

If you want to keep both these dogs you NEED to come up with some way to be able to separate these dogs physically some how. 

What happens when you and hubby go out and these two start a fight with no one to break things up? 

I have personally known people who have come home to DEAD dogs or an EYEBALL POPPED OUT because their dogs fought while they were away. 



> We're keeping both dogs unless (I guess) something terrible happens. Unfortunately, it might have to come to that because my husband will NOT re-home one.


This sounds incredibly cruel and selfish TBH. You know there is a problem starting. I personally couldn't live with the guilt if something terrible happened to my dog when I knew there was a problem and just didn't do anything about it. 



> The roommate we are staying with has male littermates (now 5 years old) and I don't see this behavior in them. And she has not trained them or socialized them well. I'm doing a heck of a lot more work with my dogs than she's done with hers, and hers have turned out fine. Surely there's hope for us.


Your roommate is the EXCEPTION TO THE RULE. You... Are NOT. You are falling into the trap of the appeal to possibility. It's like the lottery - Just because people have won, does not mean that you can count on it for yourself. 



> So, so far, I'm hearing that basically we're screwed...? At some point, they'll either hurt each other or us and based on the stipulations I'm putting on all of you on the advice, there's no way to prevent it. Is that right?


With the stipulations you have put into place... Yeah. You're pretty much screwed.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

tim_s_adams said:


> It should be possible to keep them from fighting if you're with them in your bedroom. If you can't be with them, couldn't you tie them up such that they can't reach each other? Unlike others, I don't see it as inevitable that this aggression between them will escalate. Sounds more like a combination of pain or discomfort from their recent surgery, coupled with a lack of exercise. * I would expect it to diminish once they've healed enough to get more exercise...*.ut that will take time. In the meantime just remove the opportunity to fight as much as possible...just my opinion..b


I respectfully disagree with this statement. 

In my experience, fighting very much becomes a habitual behavior. Even when the physical cause for the fights is gone - they are still going to be far more prone to fighting then they were before. 

Each "successful" fight (Successful as in - it was allowed to escalate into an exchange of teeth) increases the probability of another fight happening.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

emcale said:


> @MineAreWorkingline - I understand they had major surgery and I should take great care to help them heal. I'm trying my very best. This has only been ONE fight each day. It's not like they're running around like crazy all day. I'm trying to keep them calm and rested as much as possible, but it is very hard with no crate and no support from the people around me. I'm doing my best.
> 
> Sure, there's a bathroom with a door on it in our weekend house that we can use to separate, but we can't do that in our weekday house. The bathroom is used by the roommate as well, so that's just not realistic in our situation.
> 
> ...


Sometimes people have to do the adult thing. Tie one dog to the bed post and the other to a door knob. This is about what is good for the dogs right now and is on a temporary basis until they heal. Also, since there are five other unruly dogs involved, there is nothing stopping them from attacking or joining in an attack.

I wouldn't be be all too concerned about issues due to them being litter mates though it can be a possible problem. It doesn't seem to be such a big issue in German Shepherds. As somebody else mentioned, I would be more concerned about the behavioral and health changes that come with early neutering but it is too late to do anything about that. Newer research doesn't paint as rosey a picture as older studies did and are showing an increase in aggression, especially dog on dog. IME, there is a quiet, calm confidence that comes with an intact mature dog, especially males.


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## emcale (Jul 9, 2017)

@tim_s_adams - Thank you for the encouraging reply  I hope it's not inevitable that the behavior will escalate. I will try to find a way to, when I can't be there with them in our weekday house, to keep them separated. Not sure what that looks like right now, but I'll do my best.
@cloudpump - Perhaps they seem like excuses, but I'm trying everything I can to work with what I have. And I don't have a lot. I'm wondering if anyone has been in a similar situation as mine and has been successful, and has advice on how to cope. It doesn't seem like anybody has. That's why it seems I shoot down a lot of advice because it's not realistic in my situation.
@voodoolamb - That is very scary what you're saying. They get along 99% of the time. Is it really a huge risk to leave them alone together every now and then? I know there are stories, but there are horror stories for everything. Regardless, our situation will hopefully change within the year, so when we have our own place, we can certainly find ways of separating them when we're gone.

I know it's selfish what we're putting the pups through. I want to re-home, but this is not my decision to make. My husband will not hear of re-homing. I have tried to bring up the subject, and it's shot down very adamantly. He even brings up the "if we had twins, would you re-home one because it's difficult?" He questions my ability to be a mother to human babies if I can't handle these animal babies. Please believe me that I want to re-home, but I just can't. I guess I'm being selfish for not just putting my foot down and taking one to a shelter or something, but I really want to put the blame on my husband on this one. There is absolutely nothing I can do. 

It sucks my roommate is the exception, and I'm not. I'm working my butt off every day for these two pups, and still there are issues. She does nothing with hers, and they're totally fine. It's so unfair. I guess I just wanted someone to tell me that mine will be fine like hers since at least I'm putting in the work. If that's not the reality, so be it.

Haha, thanks for the reassurance I'm screwed  I'm doing everything I can. I'd love to post to this thread in a month or so that everything is fine. I hope I can


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## emcale (Jul 9, 2017)

@voodoolamb - If you disagree with @Time_s_adams statement, is there a way to change the behavior over time? Can you teach them not to fight? Or is fighting just part of having sibling dogs and you have to control the environment, not the behavior?


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

At the very least... Could you purchase one or two of the fold able metal crates to secure the dogs when you are gone? Set them up in the middle of the floor or heck, even ON the bed... Safer and more secure than teathering. They could be slid under the bed or propped up against a wall when not in use...


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I'm sorry but I don't understand. Perhaps if you could clarify we could help. 

Also curious about a breeder selling two pups to someone.

You can't crate? I don't understand this at all. 
You live with someone with 5 dogs and you got two more? Again, I just don't understand. 
You would rather have a dog injured or killed then rehome? Sorry you lost me completely.

I agree with Voodoo. This isn't going to go away. At this point you are risking life threatening injury, especially to the female, following major surgery.
I am not trying to be mean or unkind I guess I just don't get it.


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## emcale (Jul 9, 2017)

@MineAreWorkingline - Tie one to the bedpost and another to the doorknob. Would you suggest this being in the bedroom together? Or should one be in the bedroom on a bedpost and the other on the outside of the door? I'm guessing both inside the bedroom since there are other dogs involved. This would at least help them be separated, though in the same bedroom. Thanks for that advice. I think I'll do that when I'm not there.

As far as the early neutering/spaying, if it was another situation I would have liked to leave them intact. But we and the vet came to a compromise, that this was what was best given our circumstance. I understand most dogs live a long healthy life with early neutering/spaying. I'm hoping mine are in that group 

Thanks for the advice.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

emcale said:


> @voodoolamb - If you disagree with @Time_s_adams statement, is there a way to change the behavior over time? Can you teach them not to fight? Or is fighting just part of having sibling dogs and you have to control the environment, not the behavior?


With training and with a keen eye for canine body language - you can stop most fights from ever happening - but only when you are there and are actively supervising.

But all the training you put into them will do JACK when you are not present or otherwise distracted. They are DOGS after all. 

To live in a successful multi-dog house hold you need both training and environmental control. If there could only be one - environmental control hands down beats out training in this situation.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

voodoolamb said:


> I respectfully disagree with this statement.
> 
> In my experience, fighting very much becomes a habitual behavior. Even when the physical cause for the fights is gone - they are still going to be far more prone to fighting then they were before.
> 
> Each "successful" fight (Successful as in - it was allowed to escalate into an exchange of teeth) increases the probability of another fight happening.


I agree that fighting can become habitual, which is why I suggested not letting that happen! Manage them while they're out of sorts healing, then it won't have a chance to become the norm between them. Once they're back to health and exercise is back on track, there's no reason to think they won't get along as well as they did before. Again, just my opinion, for what it's worth >

Of course to think that you can have two dogs the same age who will never fight, is in my opinion wishful thinking! But it can certainly be mitigated and not allowed to become habitual.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

I don’t think tying them up when you are not there to supervise is a good idea. Accidental hangings are not out of the realm of possibility. I would do what voodoo suggested and set up crates when you leave, even if the crates need to be on the bed. It’s really the lowest risk option you have. NO collars on while in the crate unsupervised.


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## emcale (Jul 9, 2017)

@voodoolamb - Putting one in a crate on the bed and the other just left on the floor of the bedroom... Why haven't I thought of that? LOL Yes, that could work. Our bedroom is tiny, and this would be the only option other than tethering them on opposite sides of the room somehow. I'll look into that. I need to find a crate big enough for one of them...
@Sabis mom - I know, it's complicated. I'll be glad to explain further. I didn't want to bore people with all the details, but perhaps it would help here.

The breeder is reputable and told us the difficulties we would have. Husband didn't care. Wanted to buy two of them. The breeder was honest, but didn't talk us out of it. Wish he had  But I don't blame him.

We can't crate because, in our living situation, there is no room. We've also been asked not to put crates in the main living area of the house in which we are staying. Our bedroom (our only personal space) is too small to put any crates. No room to put one, let alone two.

Our living situation changed AFTER my husband and I purchased our two pups. We were originally in our own home by ourselves and were able to crate, separate, etc. Life changed, and we're in this living situation. Most people would have re-homed them at this point given the life change, but my husband wouldn't hear of it. He loves them too much. He said it would be like giving away one of your children if your life suddenly got hard. No one would do that in that instance, so it's the same here. Could someone please talk sense to him? 

I would NOT rather have a dog injured or killed then re-home, my husband would. I'm trying to keep that from happening as best I can given our situation because I cannot talk my husband into re-homing. I don't understand him either. Maybe you could talk to him..? 

I don't think you're mean or unkind, you're genuinely wanting to know what crazy person would be in this situation  

If this isn't going away, I have to find a way, for the year that we are in this situation, to prevent something terrible from happening as much as possible. There MUST be a way. Otherwise, maybe this is a huge wake-up call to my husband.

I hope it helped you understand a little better


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

emcale said:


> @MineAreWorkingline - Tie one to the bedpost and another to the doorknob. Would you suggest this being in the bedroom together? Or should one be in the bedroom on a bedpost and the other on the outside of the door? I'm guessing both inside the bedroom since there are other dogs involved. This would at least help them be separated, though in the same bedroom. Thanks for that advice.* I think I'll do that when I'm not there.*
> 
> As far as the early neutering/spaying, if it was another situation I would have liked to leave them intact. But we and the vet came to a compromise, that this was what was best given our circumstance. I understand most dogs live a long healthy life with early neutering/spaying. I'm hoping mine are in that group
> 
> Thanks for the advice.


Wait a minute! Are you saying you are okay with them getting into a serious dog fight just out of surgery when you are home? As Voodoo said, keep letting them practice fighting whether you are home or not is going to escalate into something you are ill equipped to deal with both post surgery and in the long run.


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## emcale (Jul 9, 2017)

> To live in a successful multi-dog house hold you need both training and environmental control. If there could only be one - environmental control hands down beats out training in this situation.


Thanks for putting it like that. It makes sense. When we have our own place, we'll be able to control the environment 100%.



> Of course to think that you can have two dogs the same age who will never fight, is in my opinion wishful thinking! But it can certainly be mitigated and not allowed to become habitual.


Good thoughts. Thanks for the input! I know they will fight occasionally, but I'm hoping I'll be able to manage the environment better eventually.
@GypsyGhost - I will definitely look into getting a big enough crate to put one in. Sounds like that might be the best option. Thank you.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

emcale said:


> That is very scary what you're saying. They get along 99% of the time. Is it really a huge risk to leave them alone together every now and then?


In my experience - Yes. I cited two of the more extreme examples, but I have countless stories of people coming home to injured dogs. Most of the time it's just a few puncture wounds and some scratches, but often enough it is something more serious requiring vet attention - Torn eye lids, ripped ears, etc

You have to face facts, 4 fights in 5 months. These two dogs have a fight _history_ now. 



> I know it's selfish what we're putting the pups through. I want to re-home, but this is not my decision to make. My husband will not hear of re-homing. I have tried to bring up the subject, and it's shot down very adamantly. He even brings up the "if we had twins, would you re-home one because it's difficult?" He questions my ability to be a mother to human babies if I can't handle these animal babies. Please believe me that I want to re-home, but I just can't. I guess I'm being selfish for not just putting my foot down and taking one to a shelter or something, but I really want to put the blame on my husband on this one. There is absolutely nothing I can do.


A bit off topic - but it sounds like you guys could really benefit from couple's counselling. Sounds very frustrating to have a partner that will not listen to your side and disrespectfully announces his perceived character flaws of you. 



> It sucks my roommate is the exception, and I'm not. I'm working my butt off every day for these two pups, and still there are issues. She does nothing with hers, and they're totally fine. It's so unfair. I guess I just wanted someone to tell me that mine will be fine like hers since at least I'm putting in the work. If that's not the reality, so be it.


Oh trust me! I wish I were the exception to sometimes (Especially in regards to random windfalls and metabolism! LOL) So I feel ya. But reality isn't so bad once you face it and come up with solutions



> Haha, thanks for the reassurance I'm screwed  I'm doing everything I can. I'd love to post to this thread in a month or so that everything is fine. I hope I can


Just keep in mind... You are still 2 1/2 - 3 1/2 YEARS out from mature dogs. Expect a bit of a roller coaster, that's what tends to happen with raising dogs. Things might be better in a month, but then in 3 months from now you are breaking up their biggest fight EVER. Just don't lull yourself into a false sense of security.


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## emcale (Jul 9, 2017)

@MineAreWorkingline - I think we had a big misunderstanding there LOL. I was agreeing with you in your suggestion that I keep them separated in the bedroom in order to prevent a fight. I do NOT want them to be in a fight when I'm not there. I can keep them from fighting when I'm there as long as I pay attention, but they need to be separated when I'm not there. Sorry for that confusion. I am definitely NOT OK with them getting into a fight when I'm not there.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

emcale said:


> @MineAreWorkingline - I think we had a big misunderstanding there LOL. I was agreeing with you in your suggestion that I keep them separated in the bedroom in order to prevent a fight. I do NOT want them to be in a fight when I'm not there. I can keep them from fighting when I'm there as long as I pay attention, but they need to be separated when I'm not there. Sorry for that confusion. I am definitely NOT OK with them getting into a fight when I'm not there.


This is getting more confusing. Are you saying that they don't fight when you are there but they do fight when left alone?


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

No room in the house, how about setting up a kennel outside and rotate them this way?

Eta, how do they both do with the other dogs in the home?


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

I'm not only worried about the dogs at this point, but also your relationship with your husband. It sounds like you really aren't being listened to and almost bowled over, as if his opinion is more important. You said that you are doing almost all of the work when you were the one that didn't even want one dog... So how is it that he gets to make all the decisions?

I think counseling might be a good idea. You can discuss things with a third party there to help keep everything calm and not overrun with emotion. Your husband really needs to look at this more responsibly.

As far as the dogs are concerned, I have seen aggression in two females close in age. I warned the owners (I was their dog-walker and caretaker, and they asked my opinion) that they needed to do something about it, but they decided that it was just a phase and that it would pass. Nope. The border collie (unnameable breed) mix attacked the other female and got her leg so badly flayed that they couldn't stitch it. She had to be in a cast for two months. And this happened while both owners were home and dogs were loose together.

Going off of just your living situation, I think it would be the most humane, responsible thing to rehome one of the dogs. Add in the aggression issues, and this is just a major problem in the making.


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## emcale (Jul 9, 2017)

@voodoolamb - Thank you for all your input  Very scary about the fights when owners aren't there. I had no idea. I will try very hard to find a solution in our situation now. I know in the future when we have our own space we'll be able to control the environment 100%. Until then, I need to be creative, it sounds like.

So, mine have a fight history, it sounds like...? But what is the definition of a dogfight? My two have stiff bodies, hackles raised, and just growl and flail around a lot, sometimes paws will hit, but so far no contact other than that happens with them. It's very loud and scary, and very different from play fighting. So anyway, when I say "fight," that's what I'm referring to. Does this change any advice?

Hubby and I have had a good relationship up until now (8 years married, 10 years together), but this has admittedly, just derailed us. He doesn't understand why I'm stressed all the time. Yes, it is very frustrating that we won't listen to reason with the re-homing thing. And I'm outnumbered, since the roommate doesn't think we should re-home either. We also live near his family who doesn't think re-homing should even be considered. In all seriousness, what kind of argument could I put forth when they compare the pups to human children? "You wouldn't re-home your human children if things got difficult would you?" How do I argue with that? Seriously, I want to know what to say to them.



> Oh trust me! I wish I were the exception to sometimes (Especially in regards to random windfalls and metabolism! LOL)


 Love it  I feel like I'm not the exception to any rule sometimes, including the metabolism one LOL



> Expect a bit of a roller coaster, that's what tends to happen with raising dogs.


 This is a great point. I actually didn't know it would take that long for GSDs to mature. I'm not sure I can take this roller coaster much longer  But it's good to know that that's to be expected. Thanks for the encouragement!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

emcale said:


> @voodoolamb - Putting one in a crate on the bed and the other just left on the floor of the bedroom... Why haven't I thought of that? LOL Yes, that could work. Our bedroom is tiny, and this would be the only option other than tethering them on opposite sides of the room somehow. I'll look into that. I need to find a crate big enough for one of them...
> 
> @Sabis mom - I know, it's complicated. I'll be glad to explain further. I didn't want to bore people with all the details, but perhaps it would help here.
> 
> ...


Ok. No room for crates. I will get slammed for this I have no doubt, but hey it is what it is. Go buy two chain leashes and anchor them to opposite walls in your room. Not ideal by any means but better then nothing. Tether them to you (one dog each) when your home. Separate walks, separate training, definitely separate feeding.

You are correct, it is not cool to dump a dog JUST because life gets tough. But it is totally cool to rehome a dog for it's own safety and well being. I had to do it. I picked the dog that was coping the worst with our situation, and the one that stood the best chance of being ok in a new home.
I will happily talk to your other half. I feel safe saying I have sacrificed more then most would for my dogs. I have been homeless with my dogs, I have gone hungry to feed them, I have slept in vehicles with them. The one thing I will never do is put my feelings ahead of their well being.


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## emcale (Jul 9, 2017)

@MineAreWorkingline - I'm so sorry for the confusion. 

They HAVE fought when I'm here. That was the original scenario I posted about. Hubby was able to separate. The fights happened when I wasn't paying 100% attention. So I'm saying that, even though I DON'T want them to fight when I'm there, if it happens, I can at least try to separate. Or better yet, prevent it. 

I don't think they've ever fought when I'm NOT there, but obviously, I might not know that for sure. And I'd like to prevent it from occurring, especially during surgery recovery. So I'm concerned about both scenarios. Does that make more sense?
@Nigel - I haven't thought about a kennel outside. Her dogs go outside quite a bit, so I don't know if that matters or not, but that's doable. They do well with the other dogs in the home. One is a senior, two are adults, and two are puppies. They like to play with the other puppies. They don't have much interaction with the adult and senior dogs, but they seem to be fine together, although the roommate's dogs have growled at mine before just for walking in their way. I don't think they like my pups LOL.
@Pytheis -


> You said that you are doing almost all of the work when you were the one that didn't even want one dog... So how is it that he gets to make all the decisions?


 Thank you! This is my argument to him exactly. Does it make any sense to you? It's not fair. He would say he does a lot of the work, and he does help out when he's there, but he's just gone most of the day for work. He can't help that. I work evenings, so I'm there with them during the most active parts of the day. When he gets home in the evenings they're tired from their daily activities so they sleep when he's there. Of course he would think nothing's wrong and it's totally easy LOL

Our relationship has always been a good one, but this has really thrown us for a loop. We've never considered counseling, although it would be so nice to have a third party look at this objectively. Hubby probably would not respond well to it, though. It's just a difficult situation. Although posting on this thread has actually been quite therapeutic LOL

Very interesting story about the two female dogs you mentioned. Maybe it would take something like this for my husband to do something. I don't know. I think it's the best decision to re-home, but how do I convince the husband who equates it with re-homing one of your human children if things were difficult? I don't know how to put forth a good argument that would counteract that.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

emcale said:


> In all seriousness, what kind of argument could I put forth when they compare the pups to human children? "You wouldn't re-home your human children if things got difficult would you?" How do I argue with that? Seriously, I want to know what to say to them.


Dogs ARE NOT people, no matter how much someone wishes they were. They do not think the same or act the same, and they have different needs. It is extremely immature, IMO, to say that they are one and the same. There are way more options to work with a human child if you are having issues in the home. And what do you think foster homes are?

I'll tell you a bit about my childhood:
I am the youngest of five children. I have three older brothers and one older sister. My sister is 9 years old than me, so we never really grew up together. I did, however, live with my brothers. I was treated very, very poorly. It was a highly abusive situation, and my parents were divorced. My mother was trying to keep me safe all by herself and do what she could to love and support my brothers. The state came in, observed the home, and legally removed my brother from the house. They said that it was not safe for us to live together. My mother did everything she could. She worked very hard to do everything right. But the situation was not acceptable, so my brother had to be "rehomed" if you will. 

My point is, sometimes things do happen with humans as well. It is mature to accept when something is just not a good fit. Doing what is best for ALL involved is more important than anything. It is unacceptable to think that it is better to make dogs and your wife suffer just because you "love" your pets. Love them enough to do what is best for them.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Hon, seriously, I too am concerned about your relationship. I know you say it has always been good with your husband, but currently, he is not treating you like an equal partner. He has not listened to you at any point throughout the puppy process. And sadly, all of his decisions have been bad. His arguments do not make sense. We all love our dogs, but dogs are not children. We may be an a situation where we have to rehome a dog, even though we don't want to. There is no comparison between rehoming a dog and getting rid of a child. I especially take offense to him saying you wouldn't be a good mother, because you can't handle these two puppies. You should too. IMO, that is borderline abusive on an emotional level.

I know it's not my business. It's just that I have two young adult daughters. I'd be seeing red flags, if their SO was treating them like you are being treated. Just the Mom in me, coming out. Take good care of you.

Hugs!


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## emcale (Jul 9, 2017)

@Sabis mom - Wow, it sounds like you have had quite an experience with dogs! It puts my situation into perspective. I would be very interested to know how you coped with your difficult situations. I feel like I've sacrificed quite a bit for mine already, I couldn't imagine what you went through.

I think I will try putting a crate on the bed and keeping one on the floor of the bedroom. Similar to your tethering on opposite ends of the room. This might be the compromise that's needed.



> You are correct, it is not cool to dump a dog JUST because life gets tough. But it is totally cool to rehome a dog for it's own safety and well being.


 That is a great point. How do I know which one it is, though? My husband would say that this would be just re-homing them because life is tough. Would you say, in this situation, it would be for their own safety and well-being? I think I might agree with you, but I don't know if I can get hubby to. He just doesn't see it that way.

Thank you for your input.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> Hon, seriously, I too am concerned about your relationship. I know you say it has always been good with your husband, but currently, he is not treating you like an equal partner. His arguments do not make sense. We all love our dogs, but dogs are not children. There is no comparison between rehoming a dog and getting rid of a child. I especially take offense to him saying you wouldn't be a good mother, because you can't handle these two puppies. You should too. IMO, that is borderline abusive on an emotional level.


This ^


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

emcale said:


> @MineAreWorkingline - I'm so sorry for the confusion.
> 
> They HAVE fought when I'm here. That was the original scenario I posted about. Hubby was able to separate. The fights happened when I wasn't paying 100% attention. So I'm saying that, even though I DON'T want them to fight when I'm there, if it happens, I can at least try to separate. Or better yet, prevent it.
> 
> I don't think they've ever fought when I'm NOT there, but obviously, I might not know that for sure. And I'd like to prevent it from occurring, especially during surgery recovery. So I'm concerned about both scenarios. Does that make more sense?


So then you *do* want to separate them when you* are* home as that is when they are getting into fights. It also would give you some down time to get things done and to relax before going to work.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

If the dogs are in a position where they could seriously injure themselves or one another, it is cool, as you guys are saying, to rehome. They are not safe. 

Do you really think they'll be happy being cooped up in cages and separated their entire lives? I know that plenty of people do the crate and rotate and have absolutely no issues, but you are so not set up for that. You need way more support if you are going to make that happen.

Do not let it get to the point of a flayed leg, lost eye, puncture wound, or anything else. That is not loving your pets. That is borderline neglect and abuse. Not okay.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

emcale said:


> [MENTION=347474]So, mine have a fight history, it sounds like...? But what is the definition of a dogfight? My two have stiff bodies, hackles raised, and just growl and flail around a lot, sometimes paws will hit, but so far no contact other than that happens with them. It's very loud and scary, and very different from play fighting. So anyway, when I say "fight," that's what I'm referring to. Does this change any advice?


Yep. That's a fight. 

And the scary thing is - these are pups. Things will probably get worse as they grow into their bodies and strength. Adolescents sometimes don't know their own strength one will throw around a little too much and the other will feel severely threatened and start fighting for their life. Not a good scenario.



> Hubby and I have had a good relationship up until now (8 years married, 10 years together), but this has admittedly, just derailed us. He doesn't understand why I'm stressed all the time. Yes, it is very frustrating that we won't listen to reason with the re-homing thing. And I'm outnumbered, since the roommate doesn't think we should re-home either. We also live near his family who doesn't think re-homing should even be considered. In all seriousness, what kind of argument could I put forth when they compare the pups to human children? "You wouldn't re-home your human children if things got difficult would you?" How do I argue with that? Seriously, I want to know what to say to them.


This really bothers me. I don't like the guilt tripping and emotional manipulation... I mean aside from the obvious that these are dogs not human children - I think it is a downright shame that he/they don't grasp that one of the most difficult and loving thing a parent of a child can ever do is be realistic about their capabilities and do what is best for their child. Two examples from my personal life, My best friend's partner was adopted, as an adult he tracked down his birth mother. At the time of his birth, she was not at a stable point in her life. Giving him up for adoption was the hardest thing she had to do, but in the end he had a good childhood. A much better one than she could have provided. Another example, and this one is a heart breaker, a cousin of mine had several children, their second eldest boy was born with severe emotional and developmental problems - without getting into too much detail... Their son put their 3 year old daughter into ICU. She now is disabled. There were other young children in the house who were in danger, and long story short their son was "re-homed" as it were. Sorry, but I just can't follow their logic there, there really are some cases where the most humane thing to do for human or fur child is letting them go IMHO.



> This is a great point. I actually didn't know it would take that long for GSDs to mature. I'm not sure I can take this roller coaster much longer  But it's good to know that that's to be expected. Thanks for the encouragement!


Yes. GSDs tend to be a slower to mature breed, my guy is 2 1/2 and still has a lot of puppy in him...


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## emcale (Jul 9, 2017)

@Pytheis - Thank you for sharing your story. I'm so sorry what you went through. What a great point to pose to my husband. Thank you for your "blessing" of re-homing. I mean that sincerely. I want to do what's best. And you're right, they aren't going to be happy being in cages and cooped up all the time. They haven't been like that to this point, so I really didn't want to start. I am definitely NOT well set up for a crate and rotate routine. I do want them to be safe. It's sad thinking I've put them in a situation where they might not be. Thank you for your input!
@Stevenzachsmom - It sounds like you are a very sweet person. Thank you for your encouragement! I do probably need some "mom" input right now  

When we got these puppies at 8 weeks old, I didn't know what I was in for, and I did "shut down" several times during those first two months, where I would just cry, go to the bedroom, and shut the door and not come out because everything was so stressful. The accidents, the energy, the training. It was too much to handle at the time. Hubby handled the two pups during these moments, but it is that reaction that he saw in me that made him think I couldn't handle children, and when it got tough, I would just shut down. I understood that I reacted very immaturely and that I was very stressed at the moment and just couldn't handle it, but I was trying to tell him that I understood human child behavior much better than puppy behavior (I am a teacher, after all). So I would think that I could handle a child much more effectively than puppies. Regardless, I have stepped up with this life change that was happened to us without giving up. He remembers the instances where I "shut down," and I still do, occasionally, because I'm so stressed and frustrated, and I know he's always thinking of that when I give the "re-home" option. He thinks it's my way of giving up and shutting down. 

Anyway, I say all that to say that that is the reason he takes the position he does. I feel like we have always had good communication and it has always been a two-way street with us. We have made a good team thus far. We're just at an impasse with this. 

Sorry, thanks for letting me vent and explain that. You are so sweet to encourage me! Keep giving me "forum hugs" LOL. I need them 
@MineAreWorkingline -


> So then you do want to separate them when you are home as that is when they are getting into fights. It also would give you some down time to get things done and to relax before going to work.


 Yes definitely! 
@voodoolamb - Thanks for the verification. It's scary to think it could get worse. I'm taking all this advice to heart. I want them to be safe.

Also, thank you for sharing your personal story. I've heard a couple of those stories where even human children have been "re-homed" because it is what's best for them. It's apparently hard for my husband, and even me, to know when re-homing is the best option. If we keep these puppies, would we have given them the best life they could have? If we re-home them, would we regret it and would our relationship with each other suffer? I know these are questions for counselors and therapists, but it's therapeutic to put it out there. And thank you for the encouragement. I don't like being guilt-tripped either and it makes me angry. 

I actually really like the journey this thread has gone through. This has been therapeutic this evening  It's helping me put things in perspective.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I've been sitting here, trying to figure out how to word this. Honestly, there is _nothing_ wrong with finding another home for a dog. No, they shouldn't be treated like they are disposable, but let's not be so arrogant that we think that we are the _best_ home for the dog/dogs that we have. That's simply not true. If it's making your life miserable having two puppies, then you should be able to find a home for one. Dogs are supposed to enrich our lives, not make them depressingly difficult. 

I'm just concerned that your dogs aren't having much of an opportunity to heal from their surgeries. It's important that they rest, and don't wrestle around. After that, _then_ you can figure out how to safely raise large puppies in a tiny space.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

emcale said:


> So, so far, I'm hearing that basically we're screwed...? At some point, they'll either hurt each other or us and based on the stipulations I'm putting on all of you on the advice, there's no way to prevent it. Is that right? Will somebody please talk to my husband and convince him to re-home one or both of them? PLEASE?!


Yes, you are. Time for your husband to wake up and face reality. How can you wait until something terrible happens? Keep the one who is injured less? 
Or maybe it wil resolve itself when one is killed by the other, which is not unheard of. In the past I had a Malinois female who was fine with other dogs until she was spayed and became dog aggressive. The following is my take: the hormonal balance in your dogs is now disturbed. First there was a clear difference; female - male = balance. Now the female has lost her female hormones and her testosterone is more prevalent. Your male has lost much of his testosterone, which put them in a more equal rank and thus the sibling syndrome has hit them.


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## emcale (Jul 9, 2017)

@dogfaeries - Thank you for that validation. I'm struggling with whether we are giving them the best possible home. I honestly don't know. I mean, they're getting a lot of attention, a lot of exercise, a lot of training. But they're living with many other dogs during the week. I don't know how that's affecting them. I also don't know if not being able to separate them is causing more harm than good. My husband thinks we ARE the best home for them and that we would be giving them away just because I'm frustrated and stressed. His argument is I'm causing my own stress and frustration, but I think what I'm doing is what these dogs need. And it's a lot. These dogs are making my life depressingly difficult. I haven't quite seen a huge upside yet. Again, the husband doesn't agree.

I will have to help them this week more than usual be separated from each other and the other dogs. I think I'll put a crate on the bed with one of them in there and the other on the floor in the bedroom. That's the best I can do right now. At least until they heal. And then, yes, as you said, then decide how to better raise them in the environment.
@wolfy dog - Thank you for that information on why they're acting differently. Their hormones are imbalanced. It's so sad. I feel like I've really done them a disservice now by having them fixed. I thought it was the best thing and my vet thought it was too, but now I'm just worried this might have caused more problems. But what's done is done, sadly. Now it's just dealing with the consequences.

And my husband doesn't think the reality is as you described. Unfortunately, he's going to have to see something bad happen before he believes it. He told me himself that I would be causing more confusion by going through the hassle of separating them to keep something that MIGHT happen from happening. We're actually having the conversation right now LOL.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Twenty years ago I got divorced, and shared a room upstairs at my parents house with my 5 year old son and the cat. My Doberman and my sheltie had to be farmed out to a friend, because my parents said no dogs. I didn’t get my dogs back until I bought a house 10 months later. I get how situations can change.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

emcale said:


> .
> 
> 
> He told me himself that I would be causing more confusion by going through the hassle of separating them to keep something that MIGHT happen from happening. We're actually having the conversation right now LOL.



They need to learn to be separated. I have 3 GSDs and they didn’t spend 24/7 with another dog while they were growing up. This 15 month old puppy goes to work with me, while the other two stay at home. And those other two went through the same routine. They all function independently of each other.


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## emcale (Jul 9, 2017)

@dogfaeries -


> My Doberman and my sheltie had to be farmed out to a friend because my parents said no dogs. I didn’t get my dogs back until I bought a house 10 months later. I get how situations can change.


 I'm very interested to know how this worked out. Was it hard to bond with your dogs 10 months later? 

I wonder if this could be an option for us, maybe having someone raise our pups for a while until we can get our own place. How was the transition for them? Did you have any trouble bonding with them after the separation?


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

emcale said:


> @dogfaeries - I'm very interested to know how this worked out. Was it hard to bond with your dogs 10 months later?
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if this could be an option for us, maybe having someone raise our pups for a while until we can get our own place. How was the transition for them? Did you have any trouble bonding with them after the separation?




I made a point to visit them every day. My friend took good care of them (he was a little nervous though when the big bad Doberman jumped in bed with him). They were just fine at his house. And had no problem with me running back and forth to see them.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I guess I should say the dogs had no problem with me running back and forth. They got a lot of attention, they just didn’t physically live with me.


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## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

Hubby handled the two pups during these moments, but it is that reaction that he saw in me that made him think I couldn't handle children, and when it got tough, I would just shut down. I understood that I reacted very immaturely and that I was very stressed at the moment and just couldn't handle it, but I was trying to tell him that I understood human child behavior much better than puppy behavior (I am a teacher, after all). So I would think that I could handle a child much more effectively than puppies. Regardless, I have stepped up with this life change that was happened to us without giving up. He remembers the instances where I "shut down," and I still do, occasionally, because I'm so stressed and frustrated, and I know he's always thinking of that when I give the "re-home" option. He thinks it's my way of giving up and shutting down. 

Anyway, I say all that to say that that is the reason he takes the position he does. I feel like we have always had good communication and it has always been a two-way street with us. We have made a good team thus far. We're just at an impasse with this. 

My husband and I successfully raised 5 children. My husband was working away months at a time while the children were little (still is). It was very hard on me managing on my own. One of many highlights, he got back home from an interstate trip 20_ minutes_ before the homebirth of our 3rd child. They are all grown up now and they are all nice people with great jobs, we have had, through the years, lots of compliments about our family. 

That was background to say, raising my dog, going through his adolescence and into adulthood, was *harder* than raising my family. Coming to terms with his drives, surgeries, the transition from a pup to being the lovely, well behaved adult dog he is now, he did have me in tears a few times. Raising 2 pups, with your change in circumstances, oh wow, you have my utmost empathy. I hope I'm very wrong, but I just don't get the sense your husband is 'on your side', 'there for you', regarding the dogs. Raising dogs is not like raising a family. You are stressed and frustrated. Your husband needs to fix this.


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

I hope you won't be offended by this well-intentioned suggestion, OP, but I would strongly encourage you to seek supportive counseling/psychotherapy for _yourself --- without your husband_. If, at some point in the future, you /your therapist decide that couples tx would be a good idea, you can pursue it. Right now, you might benefit from time in a safe, supportive space to vent and explore your own feelings (disappointments and stresses) about all of this. 

That said, I fully agree with other posters who've encouraged rehoming or, failing that, some kind of crate/rotate system. _Starting now_. Your current situation is untenable on so many different levels that it's deeply worrisome. 

Take care of yourself.

Aly


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Tethering dogs with a chain leash is NOT safe. My ignorant room mate tried this with a poodle puppy someone had given her parents. (Parents didn't want it.) She tethered it to a cupboard door, as she didn't want it pooping and peeing everywhere, and the kitchen didn't have doors she could close to keep it in the room, and off the wall-to-wall broadloom.

When I came home, I found the poor dog with the chain wrapped tightly around one of its hind legs. God knows what state the leg would have been in by morning if I hadn't found the poor pup, and released it!

Fortunately the parties involved saw the situation wasn't going to work out, and the dog was returned to the people who had given it away.

Also, your husband is being totally unrealistic about the danger these fights pose. THEY WILL ESCALATE, have no doubt about it! They are going to start injuring one another. And something else you may not realize: the number one cause of dog owners being bitten is when they try to break up fight! Been there, had it happen, and it was my OWN DOG that bit me! Another dog was hanging on to his hind leg. He couldn't reach her so he redirected his frustration and pain onto me, and another person who was present.

In another case, a couple that was living with me had 2 male GSDs. Her husband made the mistake of putting them both outside together one night. The larger one KILLED the smaller one.

Dogs are not humans. They have very little concept of what's right or wrong. They can and will hurt each other, and possibly you or your husband as well.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

emcale said:


> @MineAreWorkingline - I understand they had major surgery and I should take great care to help them heal. I'm trying my very best. This has only been ONE fight each day. It's not like they're running around like crazy all day. I'm trying to keep them calm and rested as much as possible, but it is very hard with no crate and no support from the people around me. I'm doing my best.
> 
> Sure, there's a bathroom with a door on it in our weekend house that we can use to separate, but we can't do that in our weekday house. The bathroom is used by the roommate as well, so that's just not realistic in our situation.
> 
> ...


I haven't read the whole thread yet but yikes. I just thought I would put a few things in perspective for you. These are our stats on fighting amongst dogs over the years... I have an 11 year old female and a 2.5 year old male now. They have never been in a fight in his life. HE has never been in a fight in his life. Previously this same female lived with another same age adult male that we adopted as an adult from rescue. They had one fight very early on after adopting him. They lived together for another 8 years before he passed and had one other fight about 7 years into their relationship which I think was partly triggered by him being on prednisone and maybe grumpier than usual.

She is a bitchy bitch and there were more conflicts with the female lab she lived with for a few years but those were not fights, those were her being a bully and going after the other dog unprovoked which I came down on her hard for and worked really hard to prevent...and we basically had peace. She went after the lab twice early on to them living together, and not again after that for years until the lab passed. But those two females were never ever left alone together. They never ate loose together. The GSD could not have her toys loose with the other female. It was peace I created by being the Alpha Bitch so to speak  

"one fight each day" would be a major problem for me...we did not even have fights like that when integrating adult dogs that didn't know each other--my female GSD, my husband's female toy breed, and a newly adopted male GSD.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

My dog is recovering from surgery too...this is the current setup-

He doesn't like this crate, it's kind of small for him but it's the only one I can set up on this floor because I don't want him going up and down stairs yet. Upstairs he has a Dane crate and downstairs he has a kennel. By tomorrow he will probably be using one of those.

But for today he is allowed out on this dog bed when I can be with him and when I can't he goes in the crate. It's tough even this way because there is fresh snow on the ground and when I take him to potty on the leash he wants to jump around in the snow and I am doing everything in my power to stop him because it's so important he stay quiet since they had to do a pretty invasive surgery.

Can your vet board one of your dogs temporarily to get them through the recovery process?


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

How are they doing now ? Anymore fights? How’s the healing ? I have two females (1.5 and 2.5 years old ) and people are always shocked that they don’t fight. About to add a 8 week old male also.


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## emcale (Jul 9, 2017)

@dogfaeries - Thank you for sharing that experience. I wonder if we could have a friend or family member keep our female (Tasha) for a while, or maybe even perhaps both of them, and we could visit them on a daily basis. It's encouraging to know that situation can work 
@Dunkirk - You are an amazing person, raising 5 children largely alone while your husband was away. I hope to be as strong as you! Congratulations on raising an amazing family! And thank you for what you said about raising the dog was harder than raising the children. I've always thought this might be the case, but nobody around me believes me. They say that dogs should be EASIER than children, and if I can't handle these two dogs, I DEFINITELY can't handle children. Your response tells me maybe I'm not crazy LOL. And you're correct, the husband is not on my side. He feels I've caused the stress myself by giving too much attention to the pups. More than necessary. We had a conversation last night about possibly re-homing our female. It's possible I've almost convinced him, but I'm not sure.
@Aly - Your post is not offensive at all, although I do feel like a failure if I have to go to some professional to vent my feelings. I've always been strong and independent and going to someone to talk about this stuff will probably make me feel like I've failed since I can't handle it on my own. Anyway, it's helpful to have another "vote" for re-homing, since we can't do a crate and rotate system realistically. I think I've almost convinced my husband to explore the option of re-homing at least one of them. That was my compromise with him. We'll see what happens. We're working on that option right now.
@Sunsilver - Thank you for sharing that story. That's worrisome to think I could open the bedroom door to something scary. My husband does not think that there is a risk of it escalating. Well, I guess he thinks there might be a small chance, but not enough to need to separate them. I can't get him to come to terms with that. And I definitely don't want to be bitten trying to break up a fight. I just don't know what's causing him to be so blind to this situation. Anyway, thank you for your input. We're trying to work things out together.
@Thecowboysgirl - Thank you for sharing your experience on dogfights. It solidifies the fact that this situation can, and most likely will, get worse unless we can separate them more during the day. And just to clarify, they have never had fights every day. These fights happened to have occurred two days in a row since the surgery. So this isn't a pattern for them, but according to a lot of people, could become one quickly and we have to try to prevent it now. The message is certainly heard. 

And what a beautiful dog  I hope recovery goes well. Thank you for sharing your set up. It is very hard to keep them calm when all they want to do is play. And yes, it's very important to keep them quiet and calm, but that is very hard for me right now. Our female also had an umbilical hernia repaired, so hers was more invasive as well. I'm trying my best. And perhaps the vet could board one for a while. I might bring that up as a possibility to my husband, at least until she heals.
@konathegsd - So since the post yesterday, they haven't had any fights. They want to play with each other, though, so it's been a stressful time trying to keep them calm and separated. We're going to our weekday house tonight, and that might be a whole other story, but right now in our weekend house where we have control over the environment, it's not going too bad. The healing also seems to be going OK. I check the incisions a few times a day just to see, and everything looks good. They act like nothing's been done to them LOL. I'm so glad your two don't fight! And good luck adding that puppy. I hear it's better to add a puppy when your other dog or dogs are older, rather than getting two the same age.

I'm hoping to convince my husband about either boarding one temporarily during the healing (that will at least solve the immediate problem), and possibly re-homing at least our female on a temporary, maybe even permanent, basis. We're hopefully going to talk to his mother today to see if she would take Tasha, our female, and that will help a lot, I think. I think it might be best for them as well as for me and my sanity. I hope to post good news!

Thank you, everybody!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

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Sunsilver said:



Tethering dogs with a chain leash is NOT safe. My ignorant room mate tried this with a poodle puppy someone had given her parents. (Parents didn't want it.) She tethered it to a cupboard door, as she didn't want it pooping and peeing everywhere, and the kitchen didn't have doors she could close to keep it in the room, and off the wall-to-wall broadloom.

Click to expand...

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Sunsilver said:


> When I came home, I found the poor dog with the chain wrapped tightly around one of its hind legs. God knows what state the leg would have been in by morning if I hadn't found the poor pup, and released it!
> 
> Fortunately the parties involved saw the situation wasn't going to work out, and the dog was returned to the people who had given it away.
> 
> ...


I know it isn't safe. I had an eyebolt sunk into a beam at about head level for the dog and used it to contain him short term. The length of chain allowed him to lay down but not enough slack for him to roll around or step over it. Again, last ditch, short term solution.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

With a male and a female, a serious fight would surprise me. My youngest male and female will get into loud shouting matches, but it means nothing. I never have to separate, it's part of the way they play. It's possible that a less experienced person would see this as a fight, it certainly isn't. 

OP- are you sure these are fights? I am not convinced they are... and if they are not, it would be fairly easy for you and your husband to read the dog's body language before a scuffle breaks out and stop it. This requires leadership, understanding of proper punishment, and understanding of dog's body language. A true fight, well, there would be zero question in your mind whether the dogs were fighting or not. You would literally have to pull one dog off the other to get it to stop.

I also can't stress enough that you need to figure out a way to separate these two when you are not home. 

Another thing to remember, is a scuffle can turn into a pile-on-fight with 7 dogs in the house. Be aware that other dogs might come rushing over to join in the fray on even when your two are just playing. And then you've got a real situation, especially if some of those dogs are small.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

konathegsd said:


> How are they doing now ? Anymore fights? How’s the healing ? I have two females (1.5 and 2.5 years old ) and people are always shocked that they don’t fight. About to add a 8 week old male also.




You are not out of the woods yet with that f-f aggression. They are just not old enough for you to sit back and relax about it. And now adding a youngster, even considered it is a male? :fingerscrossed::fingerscrossed: (that is, if they are supposed to live in one home together)


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

wolfy dog said:


> You are not out of the woods yet with that f-f aggression. They are just not old enough for you to sit back and relax about it.


I agree with this. They may be fine, and they may not. The story I told about the two females and one's leg getting flayed happened when the younger one was almost 2 years old and the older one was 3 years old.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

emcale said:


> [MENTION=347474]I would NOT rather have a dog injured or killed then re-home, my husband would.


So, he would be willing for one of your dogs to seriously injure or kill the other before he would consider re-homing one of them??? I'm guessing that he wouldn't actually, it sounds he's just dismissing that as a possibility. And he's dismissing your fears that it might happen, which is a whole other concern. He needs to understand that it absolutely CAN happen and if a serious fight occurs it's going to be very difficult for you to break it up by yourself if he's not there, it's going to be very difficult for him to break it up even if he is there, and in either case there could very well still be injuries to one or both dogs, and likely the humans attempting to intervene. He needs to take that risk seriously, and do whatever is necessary to prevent it from ever happening. 



> Hubby and I have had a good relationship up until now (8 years married, 10 years together), but this has admittedly, just derailed us. He doesn't understand why I'm stressed all the time. Yes, it is very frustrating that we won't listen to reason with the re-homing thing. And I'm outnumbered, since the roommate doesn't think we should re-home either. We also live near his family who doesn't think re-homing should even be considered. In all seriousness, what kind of argument could I put forth when they compare the pups to human children? "You wouldn't re-home your human children if things got difficult would you?" How do I argue with that? Seriously, I want to know what to say to them.


Human children don't have the sharp teeth and bite strength that a dog does. Your husband and in-laws need to see photos of the damage a dog bite can do. They need to see some videos of dogs attacking. I don't think they'd be saying such things to you if they understood that there is NO comparison. A difficult child (and aren't they all difficult, really?) isn't going to be able to quickly inflict multiple deep bite wounds that can cause permanent nerve damage or disfigurement. Dogs can. And since they want to bring up children, have any of them considered the danger kids would be in living with dogs that already have a fight history?



emcale said:


> They HAVE fought when I'm here. That was the original scenario I posted about. Hubby was able to separate. The fights happened when I wasn't paying 100% attention. So I'm saying that, even though I DON'T want them to fight when I'm there, if it happens, I can at least try to separate. Or better yet, prevent it.


You may not be able to break up or prevent a fight, even if you are paying 100% attention. Dog fights happen fast, and seemingly benign incidents can escalate extremely quickly, especially if you're not extremely savvy about dog behavior and don't know what to look for and aren't able to stop it before it's too late. 



Sunsilver said:


> Also, your husband is being totally unrealistic about the danger these fights pose. THEY WILL ESCALATE, have no doubt about it! They are going to start injuring one another. And something else you may not realize: the number one cause of dog owners being bitten is when they try to break up fight! Been there, had it happen, and it was my OWN DOG that bit me! Another dog was hanging on to his hind leg. He couldn't reach her so he redirected his frustration and pain onto me, and another person who was present.
> 
> In another case, a couple that was living with me had 2 male GSDs. Her husband made the mistake of putting them both outside together one night. The larger one KILLED the smaller one.
> 
> Dogs are not humans. They have very little concept of what's right or wrong. They can and will hurt each other, and possibly you or your husband as well.


^This.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Is your husband reading these posts at all? If he cares about you, he should. If he doesn't want to, that is the biggest red flag of all. I don't understand how he can put your safety in jeopardy if, one day, you need to break up a nasty fight. Maybe check the marriage vows, which I don't mean to be sarcastic, but really serious. It is sad and I feel for you all, incl. the dogs. They didn't ask for this stress in their lives. They are just puppies and should have fun.


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## emcale (Jul 9, 2017)

@Muskeg - Good point you make. I explained somewhat of what the fights look like in another post, but basically, this looks different than their usual play fighting. They have play-fought a lot in their 6 months together, so I feel like I probably know the difference, though I wouldn’t fool myself into thinking that quite yet LOL.

Basically, they snarl and growl and bark very loud. They have stiff bodies and are flailing about with teeth bared and paws occasionally hitting each other. They never put teeth on each other, and so far the paws to just touch occasionally, but no blood is drawn. It takes them a little while to calm down afterward. This is what the two fights have looked like since the surgery. But I'm happy to report there have been no fights the past two days 

I will try to find ways to keep them separated during the day and away from the other 5 dogs when I’m not there so nothing terrible happens.
@Cassidy’s Mom -


> So, he would be willing for one of your dogs to seriously injure or kill the other before he would consider re-homing one of them??? I'm guessing that he wouldn't actually, it sounds he's just dismissing that as a possibility.


 You’re correct, he’s dismissing it as a possibility. I was harsh when I put it that way. I agree he needs to take it seriously. We had a long talk a couple of nights ago and I explained my fears and he listened much better. I think he’s coming around  



> And since they want to bring up children, have any of them considered the danger kids would be in living with dogs that already have a fight history?


 Great point here. I haven’t considered giving them that argument. We want children but if I'm every afraid our dogs will fight or hurt our child, I'm definitely putting my foot down. I really don't think it'll come to that. Husband is coming around a little at a time. 

It’s an odd family, my in-laws. And as bad as it sounds, they would die for their pets before dying for another human being, be it their spouse, children, etc. I know, I know. It sounds terrible, but that is just the culture and mindset I’m living around. They humanize the pets very much. It’s hard to reasonably talk to people like that. I’m trying though. I think my husband, at least, is coming around. 



> You may not be able to break up or prevent a fight, even if you are paying 100% attention.


 Good information. I guess I thought it could be prevented. I’m glad to know that the pressure’s off in that sense, but it’s even more important to separate as much as possible to prevent it. I know that now. Thank you for that info.
@wolfy dog - Thank you for that post. He isn’t reading the posts (not a big forum guy) but I’m relaying as much info as I can. We did have a very good talk a couple of nights ago and I also vented my frustrations to friends and family, which helped a lot. Hubby’s coming around. His mother offered to take care of one or both if we feel like it’s too much for us in our situation, so we have options. And I truly hope the dogs aren’t living under stress. I feel like I’ve given them a very good life so far. I exercise them multiple times a day, I’m training them, I’m giving them new experiences as often as I can. My hands are a little tied given our living situation, but I really think they’re coping well. The surgery has just thrown us all for a loop. They can’t exercise and their hormones are out of whack, so I think everything just seems more amplified than usual.

I hope to find better ways of separating them during the weekdays when we’re here. Thank you for sharing your thoughts!


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## emcale (Jul 9, 2017)

Thank you all for taking the time to respond the last few days. It has helped me a lot, as well as talking through my frustrations with friends, family, and my husband. I want to give a couple of updates for those who are kind enough to read 

For this week to help with recovery, we've decided to board them at the vet. I've never boarded them before so I'm a little nervous and hope they do OK, but I feel like they need to be able to be confined and relaxed and calm during their recovery, as many of you reiterated. After thinking it through and reading all your responses, I felt like I couldn't give them the calm they needed this week. So for that reason alone, I feel good about keeping them at the vet for a few days.

I had a very good conversation with my husband and friends/family. Most said that everything will be OK and I didn't need to put so much pressure on myself. So that reads, don't change the situation, change myself/my attitude about everything. But my MIL offered to take care of one or both of the pups until we get our own place, or if we just felt like we couldn't handle two anymore. That was very kind of her. Not sure if my husband wants to take her up on it though. He just loves both of the pups so much, he doesn't feel they need to be separated. His family definitely humanizes their pets. He doesn't want to separate a "family." 

We have a solution for this week with post-surgery recovery (as explained above), but I'm looking to the future and am trying to come up with ways to keep them separated, especially when I'm not here. I am thinking through all your comments and am looking at my current set-up, and I hope to post later on what my plans are.

You all are great! You've taken the time to respond thoughtfully to my questions and concerns, and have even shown concern for my well-being. Thank you very much! While Mac & Tasha are at the vet these few days, I'm taking some R&R for myself. I think I need it


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

If you are looking to bolster your argument about re-homing one of the dogs, tell your husband that you will not risk any potential children (a toddler, for instance) getting in the middle of a dog fight. Tell him that you will not have time to devote to raising a child when you are trying to manage his two dogs that don't get along. Many people can't handle one dog with a newborn, let alone two. Tell him the child's well-being and safety come first, and you are not willing to spend all your time managing his dogs, you are going to focus on your children. Nothing wrong with that. I have two GSDs and two young children (a 2-year-old and 7-month-old). I even crate/rotate my GSDs out of an over-abundance of caution. But those are my dogs, I wanted them, I love to train them, and they were my choice. I shoulder a lot of the childcare and housework as well. My hubby's wonderful, he helps, but it is a lot to juggle. Had my husband forced the dogs on me....no, not cool. Not cool at all.

Edit to add: I just saw your updated post. I think MIL's offer is a good one. How nice that she has offered to take on one of the dogs. The separation will be harder on your husband and you than the dogs. If the dogs are fighting, they will likely be happier apart. If one is with family, you will still be able to visit and know the dog is doing well...even better.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

emcale said:


> I had a very good conversation with my husband and friends/family. Most said that everything will be OK and I didn't need to put so much pressure on myself. So that reads, don't change the situation, change myself/my attitude about everything. But my MIL offered to take care of one or both of the pups until we get our own place, or if we just felt like we couldn't handle two anymore. That was very kind of her. Not sure if my husband wants to take her up on it though. He just loves both of the pups so much, he doesn't feel they need to be separated. His family definitely humanizes their pets. He doesn't want to separate a "family."


What he, and probably they, need to realize is that littermates that have never been separated can bond very strongly to each other. So much so, that they don't really need the humans so much, and won't listen to or obey them. Everyone might not be too concerned about that now, when they're 7 month old puppies, but imagine two large, strong, untrained adult dogs who do whatever they want. That is a recipe for disaster. 

What most people who raise littermates (which is not generally recommended) do is keep them kept separate at least part of the time. Otherwise, when you NEED to separate them, such as when one needs to stay at the vet or something, it's very difficult. It's better to get them used to being by themselves sometimes, and also good to have one on one attention from the humans from time to time without having to compete with their brother/sister. Even though none of my two dog pairs have been littermates I still made sure that they had some time being the "only dog". 

Once they've recovered and come home from the vet, how about this: Your in-laws take one dog for a few weeks or months and the other stays with you, and then you switch. Do you think they will be any more equipped to deal with a dog fight than you are? If not, having both dogs stay with them temporarily is just kicking the can down the road. But if you had a chance to live/work/train with one dog at a time while they kept the other dog, I think that would really help your confidence. And I think it would be good for the dogs too.


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## emcale (Jul 9, 2017)

*Update*

A few updates I'd like to share 

It's been 2 weeks since the surgery and everything is going smoothly. Stitches were removed yesterday (that was a nightmare, but that's for another post LOL). 

We did have them boarded at the vet's for a few nights during their recovery to help keep them calm. I was very nervous about this, but both seem to have done fine and don't seem scarred by the experience.

There also has not been a fight since we've gone back to our regular routine of playing, training, etc. I'd like to chalk up the fight to not feeling well after surgery or just pent up energy from not being able to play and run.

As far as everybody's opinion on separating them at home, I'm still trying to think about the best course of action for me and my situation. I'm also dealing with strong personalities around me who don't think they should be separated so much and think I'm overreacting.

As to the re-homing thing, I'm afraid that hasn't really changed. MIL did offer to take one or both because she feels like they're a family now and shouldn't be separated or re-homed to a stranger. Even though she offered, she's in no position herself to raise one dog, let alone two. She has not said this, but I know her living situation as well. They wouldn't be going to a better situation. So I feel the offer is not serious.

Anyway, we're back to our usual routine around here. They're still a lot to handle for me at times, but we're trying to make it work. I'm trying to balance my time better and not get so overwhelmed with them. The advice from my well-intentioned in-laws is to just shut myself off in my bedroom and leave them to roam the house when I feel like I need time to myself. Or to shut them off in the backyard to play while I get work done. Both of these suggestions involve the dogs being unsupervised. So you see what I'm having to deal with here? This is the advice I'm given LOL. Oh well... Thanks, everybody!


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