# When did it start that dogs became "human"?



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

When exactly did it start that people started to lose their common dog sense and started humanizing dogs to the point that dogs can't even be dogs anymore. 

When has it started that you can't even keep dogs outdoors or intact anymore because that makes you an irresponsible and unfit owner and people steal your dogs because of that?

Since when is it fancier to call yourself a Dog Guardian instead of a Dog Owner? 

What happened and where is it leading us and most importantly why and when did it actually start?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I started seeing changes coming around in the mid 80s or so. Though before then most training I ever saw was strictly harsh compulsion. I think the pendulum swings wide and far on al that.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I think there is a growing awareness that animals are capable of far more than we thought - not just dogs - other animals as well, and that people who want to, can open their minds to that, and see where it goes. 

Dogs can show empathy. It seems part of their very nature. We on the other hand, do not seem to always have this as an innate part of who we are - but perhaps it is not a bad idea to see what you can see from a dog's eye view. 

When we stop learning, we stop growing. I know it is not exactly human to open your mind to new things, but maybe instead of discounting everything that you do not believe or understand without examining it, slow down and take a look. How is it that dogs can learn our language, but we can be so oblivious to theirs? Things like that...are interesting. 

Though it is very protective to believe that we are superior to all other species and often, other beings of our own species. However, we are animals and share biology with animals (think rats, chimps that are similar enough to pass in experiments). 

I am not saying dogs are people and people are dogs. I am saying it is far more nuanced and less absolute, in my mind, and I can deal with it as being the unknown.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Like most things, such as correcting children for instance. The extremes hit the headlines and then you're made to feel guilty by extremists for doing any kind of correction. 

You're a bad parent if you ever smack your child - because other people beat their children.

You a bad dog owner because you leave your dog outside, because others leave their dogs to rot alone in the yard. 

It seems to be all or nothing - when in reality most people occupy the middle ground. 

That being said - it's a good thing- because it makes us think, and maybe realise there is a better way. So although we'll still occupy the middle ground we'll air more towards caution and consider more the feelings of others - animal or human. 
__________
Sue


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Yes, and it is interesting that much like children dogs need love, limits, and the opportunity to build competencies and no extremes of any of those.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I also think this started in the early 80s. 

I had a dog for 18 years, and got him as a tiny little thing in 1986. Had all the normal pet paraphernalia, just leash, collar, and a couple of Nylabones for him. 
Fast forward to 2012, when I was getting ready for Hans, and I went into Petsmart and had an unreal feeling. The products and accessories for dogs were something I hadn't yet seen, nor imagined. Dresses, T-shirts, nail polish (!) collars of every kind imaginable, and worst of all, in my opinion, strollers.
Really, folks?
A dog in a stroller?
I am thinking this coincides with people becoming more hermit like, not needing to go out and interact with humans, because we have our computers and can purchase everything we need at night in our pajamas, and go out a lot less. 
Lots of people living by themselves, too, so their partner becomes the dog. They humanize the dog and see it as a person with fur. 
Also, we tend to indulge ourselves a lot more, so this spills over onto our animals, as well. 

Incoherent, this post. I have so much to say on this, but for now I need coffee and have to start the morning routine, including feeding my dog.  Not furkid. 
Dog.




Mrs.K said:


> When exactly did it start that people started to lose their common dog sense and started humanizing dogs to the point that dogs can't even be dogs anymore.
> 
> When has it started that you can't even keep dogs outdoors or intact anymore because that makes you an irresponsible and unfit owner and people steal your dogs because of that?
> 
> ...


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

I grew up in India and let me tell you, in developing countries, most people don't have the luxury of humanizing or personalizing animals. Most dogs in India are street dogs that are homeless and scavenge in the streets for food. Dogs that were kept as "pets" had a job to do. Usually it had to do with defending the home or acting as an alert dog. Dogs were _always_ kept inside and it was really unthinkable to have "house" dogs. I had GSDs then as well. They were always outside dogs. My connection and love for them was no less than now and I don't believe my dogs are any "happier" now. They are dogs. They live in the moment. As long as they are comfortable, have their basic needs met and can thrive in a conducive environment, they were all happy, loved and nourished. Whether they were inside or not for example. 

When I moved to the US, it was a totally different experience. The first dog that my family had in the US lived outside for the first 2 years. You should have heard the things that Americans that visited us would say  You would have thought that we were chaining a human child in the basement or something. 
To us...it is the norm. Animals get treated like animals. That is not necessarily a bad thing. That only means that they don't get coddled, babied and fancied (not meaning these terms as derogatory, only as how we view the situation). I'm not sure when it started in the US, but it was a HUGE shock as an outsider! The first time I saw a dog in a baby carriage, I just about died laughing!

I think part of it is the _luxury_ of it all. When you are worried about getting food on the table or making sure your kids have tuition for school, you tend not to obsess so much over if your dog has an orthopedic bed in his 5-star accommodations 

It's interesting to see this now play out in developing countries like India. Now that India is getting more developed and there is a rising middle class, dogs seem to be treated better and better. I have a good amount of people interested in importing a dog for thousands of dollars. That would have been unthinkable for the average family 20 years ago.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I don't necessarily think of them as human, but they are a living breathing creature that deserves to be treated accordingly. I respect my dogs and they respect me. I would never personally leave a dog outside because I would feel guilty. I fix my dogs because I don't want to be part of the overpopulation of homeless dogs, could I avoid an oops litter? Yes, but I'm not taking that chance. Not to mention, I would probably end up keeping all the puppies Dogs love people unconditionally, too bad people can't be the same way. They want to be around us, they pick up on our feelings, and they don't talk back I would do anything for my dogs and people who know me know this. I enjoy everything they offer and what is so hard about giving some back? A fine example is people who can't have children, many of them have dogs and that fills the void in their life...Why?, because in reality dogs need the same thing kids do...food, water, a roof over their head, structure, exercise, etc I firmly believe that if a dog is taken into the home and it has issues, getting rid of the dog would be no different then putting a child with problems up for adoption. People need to realize that while dogs aren't human they shouldn't be considered disposable either.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

llombardo said:


> I firmly believe that if a dog is taken into the home and it has issues, getting rid of the dog would be no different then putting a child with problems up for adoption. People need to realize that while dogs aren't human they shouldn't be considered disposable either.


So regardless of the welfare of the other dogs in the household or the needs of the dog in question, no dog should _ever _be rehomed or euthanized?


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## LaneyB (Feb 5, 2012)

I find qbchottu's post about India interesting. When I was in college I had a TA from Africa who said one of the most shocking things for him about the US was the way we treat our pets. Where he was from animals did not come in the house, let alone sleep on the beds with humans. 

I think of my dogs more as family members than pets. Same with our cats. I don't think of them as human, but they are more to me than the pets I had growing up. The pets I had growing up did seem more like just pets. Not saying one is better than the other, just a different philosophy as I get older.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

I agree that the most noticible changes started in the 80's BUT I think the popularity of the internet pushed the changes faster. Even as late as '95 when I moved down here my neighbors were aghast that I had FOUR German Shepherds LIVING IN THE HOUSE!!! Unheard of!!! Now almost all my neighbors have house dogs.

I don't mind people who humanize dogs, live and let live, but I resent it when they try to push their beliefs on others.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

The problem with humanizing dogs is the owner not educating himself regarding dog behavior, body language, and needs. The dog is treated like a baby and unrealistic expectations are placed on the animal. When the inevitable problems arise, said owner is frustrated and even angry with the "ungrateful" dog. Dog ends up in the shelter, sadly , for being a dog.


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## Franksmom (Oct 13, 2010)

I can't really say when it started since I grew up with a dog that was in the house and slept on my bed at night, my sister and I called him our brother and he ment the world to us. I know growing up my Mom and Dad never had a dog in the house but they did have dogs they loved. 
I think couples deciding not to have kids and that being a more accepted part of society has played a big role in how dogs are seen as little humans, because I see alot of people who have made that decision, but have dogs or cats in their lives now that they treat like the children they never had.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Now you also have all the issues of liability. It used to be if a kid jumped the fence and got bit on the butt by the resident dog, the parents yelled at the kid and the dog lived another day. Now the dog dies and the parents sue the owner and Junior learns that not respecting other people's property pays off nicely. That, and if someone doesn't like your dog because it barks for five seconds twice a day, your dog gets Antifreeze Pudding.

Sometimes it really is just safer for everyone to have the dog inside. When I have my own home, I'm putting up an 8' perimiter fence with angled barbed wire up top.... aranoid:


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Sunflowers said:


> The problem with humanizing dogs is the owner not educating himself regarding dog behavior, body language, and needs. The dog is treated like a baby and unrealistic expectations are placed on the animal. When the inevitable problems arise, said owner is frustrated and even angry with the "ungrateful" dog. Dog ends up in the shelter, sadly , for being a dog.


Yes! This is my biggest issue with anthropomorphizing animals. Completely unrealistic expectations for a creature that doesn't posses the capacity to perceive the world like a human being. Then this poor thing is faulted as a result of human ignorance.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I think there is a growing awareness that animals are capable of far more than we thought - not just dogs - other animals as well, and that people who want to, can open their minds to that, and see where it goes.
> 
> Dogs can show empathy. It seems part of their very nature. We on the other hand, do not seem to always have this as an innate part of who we are - but perhaps it is not a bad idea to see what you can see from a dog's eye view.
> 
> ...


:thumbup:


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Marketing. Marketing. Marketing. It's all about the money. 

I remember when it was just the older generation that had pocket pooches that filled the nest when they enjoyed their retirement years. That generation was guilty of having pets they treated as children. It was cute, it made them happy and the younger generation didn't have to feel guilty about not including mom & pop in their everyday life. 

Then folks started making money off of the folks who'd spend it - dog toys, beds, clothes, kennels, crates, insurance, better collars, leads, training devices etc. the list goes on and on. Along comes cable..the internet..suddenly everyone is a dog trainer (selling videos and books) everyone makes the best dog food, everyone has the best dog toys. They use guilt to make you believe that if you don't buy their product you don't love your pet. You have no excuse, you don't even have to get your fat butt off the chair in front of your computer. 

It's all about the money.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I think there is a growing awareness that animals are capable of far more than we thought - not just dogs - other animals as well, and that people who want to, can open their minds to that, and see where it goes.
> 
> Dogs can show empathy. It seems part of their very nature. We on the other hand, do not seem to always have this as an innate part of who we are - but perhaps it is not a bad idea to see what you can see from a dog's eye view.
> 
> ...



I fully agree with this. While I don't think people should "humanize" any animal I do think that studies are showing that animals (not just dogs) are far more capable of emotion and thought than we ever imagined. It is being proven more and more every day that animals can bond, love, learn, and mourn than we ever knew. 

We have learned that crows can problem solve and use tools. Chimpanzees, when shown a mirror, will become self aware. They have also learned to communicate with humans using sign language. 
Elephants recognize old "friends" after years of separation and will intensely grieve the loss of a friend while others will support that elephant in her grief. 
And anyone who has lived with and loved dogs KNOW they are capable of love and affection, will mourn a pack member or lost owner. 

No animal is capable of higher, rational thinking. Obviously they can't do math or contemplate the beginning of the universe. BUT they do and can think and feel on a basic level and while I don't agree with putting a dog in a stroller, I do think we (humans) need to start treating ALL animals on this planet better.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

It began when humans finally realized dogs, among other animals, are *living, breathing, dreaming, feeling* creatures who have their own instincts and way of life.

Dogs are not humans, they are dogs. That, however, does not make them less. By less, I mean less worthy of the things we enjoy (comfort, food, happiness, safety, kindness and compassion).


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## LaneyB (Feb 5, 2012)

I agree with Dharmasmom and Wildwolf, other than the math part.

_Obviously they can't do math _

Do Dogs Know Mathematics? | Psychology Today


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I am old enough to remember when dogs were treated like dogs. People loved them and took good care of them, but they were not dressed up in little dresses or rolled around in strollers. When I started working professionally with animals around 1990, I noticed how neurotic some pet owners were about their animals, treating them like human infants. Even then, it was a bit shocking to me, and I was the biggest animal lover I knew! 

There have always been people who spoiled their dogs, but it's now become mainstream. I like that people are concerned for the health, happiness, and general welfare of their animals, but when people anthropomorphisize them, it's not always in the animal's best interest. 

I despise neglect and abuse as much as the next animal lover, but when the pendulum swings too far the other way and it's suddenly a crime to let your dog outdoors, we have a whole 'nuther set of problems.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Lilie said:


> Marketing. Marketing. Marketing. It's all about the money.


So true. :crazy:


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## minerva_deluthe (May 6, 2012)

I agree that it is a whole industry. A lot of people use animals as baby replacements, in my opinion. At our local coffeeshop there are several women who bring ttheir dogs, dressed in frilly outfits or matching costumes at Halloween and Christmas. And strollers are not unheard of. It's very strange.

I don't think that dogs are now not allowed to bite whereas they once were. I think previously a dog would be euthanized or even shot with a lot less fanfare than there is now. We are more litigious now, and more focused on the dog's 'rights' because it has been humanized.

People are morons with dogs though, in general, and they seem to expect that that is their right. I wonder if that has always been the case? I imagine it is more so now as we have an increasingly urbanized population. I regularly walk my dog offleash on wooded trails and in non-busy parks, and feel that is perfectly acceptable as long as she is not bothering anyone (including approaching them, I am not one of those people who yells 'she's friendly!!' as the dog bounds up to them). But people freak out at the mere sight of an offleash dog, it seems. There is a lot of fear stemming from a lack of knowledge, and people seem to feel perfectly entitled to that fear and lack of knowledge. It's weird. We do not live in an animal-free universe, we are connected to a little thing called nature.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Every living, breathing creature deserves respect. If a person chooses to consider their animal as their child that is their business. If a person chooses to kennel their animal in a clean space or have them live in the barn while still giving their animal all the attention needed, that is their business. If a person chooses to crate their animal instead of kenneling, that is their business.

WHEN did we as a society decide we needed to be in everybody else's business?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Sunflowers said:


> The problem with humanizing dogs is the owner not educating himself regarding dog behavior, body language, and needs. The dog is treated like a baby and unrealistic expectations are placed on the animal. When the inevitable problems arise, said owner is frustrated and even angry with the "ungrateful" dog. Dog ends up in the shelter, sadly , for being a dog.


Yes, this exactly...as a rescue we have a high "turnover" of dogs coming through that people have already discarded.

When people treat dogs as little humans in fur coats, they attribute all kinds of thinking/reasoning ability to dogs, and dogs aren't that advanced. Dogs cannot reason that "oh, my "parents" just bought this new couch, so I'd better not chew on it!" yet people somehow manage to believe dogs can think that way!
Merely saying "My dog knows when he's been bad" shows that people think dogs have reasoning capabilities beyond what they truly possess.




> I am thinking this coincides with people becoming more hermit like, not needing to go out and interact with humans, because we have our computers and can purchase everything we need at night in our pajamas, and go out a lot less.
> Lots of people living by themselves, too, so their partner becomes the dog. They humanize the dog and see it as a person with fur.


As others said, marketing.
I mean it's so bad you can buy puppy toys in pink and blue, and other things that basically make you feel as if you brought a new infant baby (human) home. 
I think some people need this, although I believe it's unhealthy as well.
I love my dogs. I speak of them as my "kids with fur" or whatever, but at the end of the day they are our pets, and we own them.


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## minerva_deluthe (May 6, 2012)

I also think it's very weird when people put the rights of dogs over the rights of humans. I see a lot of 'I don't care about people, I love animals,' and I think that is disturbed thinking. I know someone who won't go to poor countries because she can't stand to see the dogs suffering. Um, what about the people? There is a weirdly myopic view of dogs as innocents but people as somehow responsible when they are on the bad end of injustice and inequality. I think there is something very, very unhealthy about this worldview, and I see it as common among pet lovers in North America.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Well, little dogs and all the related equipment (the strollers and designer carry-purses, etc.) came about as a reaction to folks like Brittney Spears and Paris Hilton using their little dogs as fashion accessories and being photographed all over creation while doing it. That encouraged a whole generation to do the same, simply because it was cool.

There have always been owners who have treated their dogs as furry children. The only thing that has changed is a crumbling of the divide between public and private behavior. Facebook, Twitter, internet forums. People feel more comfortable now doing things in public that they have been doing all along in private. We just know about it now. My Nana had a Fox Terrier that had a plate at the dinner table. If Facebook had been around way back in the 1950's I am sure she would have posted pictures of him doing so. But there was no Facebook and knowledge of Spot's eating habits were restricted to family. Perhaps if my Mom had been inundated with photos of celebrity owners as a teen, with the underlying message of it being cool to "infant-alize" pets, she would have told everyone how her dog ate at the dinner table. Who knows, she might have taken it one step further and put him in a high chair to increase her cool quotient at school.

As for the current culture of treating your dog as a family member, as opposed to a lawn ornament with the same needs as the BBQ and patio furniture, that can only be a good thing. Back in the day, dogs weren't thought to feel pain or emotion. It was entirely okay to have your unsecured dog hit by a car and go untreated for an obvious injury...because they didn't feel pain like people did, so it wasn't suffering. 

The aren't human, by any stretch of the imagination. But moving towards acknowledging that they have more going on than a rose bush can't be a bad thing.
Sheilah


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

I personally don't care what people do in their home with their pets, as long as it's not anything to harm the pet. 

However, I do have a huge problem with people and their dogs out in public because it effects everyone else and their pets.

My biggest aggravation is that they bring their little "human" dogs into stores like it's their child. I'm sorry... but if I can not bring my well behaved, good mannered GSD into a store... YOU are not allowed to bring your nasty, yappy, nippy, little bitch in there either. Most people don't care though.. their dogs are children, remember? Can't leave your child at home for 5 minutes!!

I work in retail and we see it all the time. My company, unfortunately, doesn't like to tell them to get their dog out because it could lose us business. Personally, I think it would drive away more customers if every isle they went down had a little dog that was at eye level trying to bite their face off. Meanwhile.. if I even sit in the front lobby with my dogs (minding our own business) we would get kicked out. That would lose my business for sure. If no dogs are allowed... NO dogs are allowed. Miss Foo Foo included!

There are so many things in public that just drive me crazy with people and their pets. I can't go near dog parks anymore, I couldn't take the conversations there about how poor Fluffy didn't get his burger and ice cream today and how very upset he must be. Or about his new wardrobe. And my favorite is how NO one seems to understand their dogs body language at ALL! I can't stand hearing "oh, he's just playing" when the dog's teeth are bared, hackels up, and the dog is snarling.. or ripping into another dogs flesh... or "he's friendly, don't worry!" as he's attacking your dog from under the bench and biting your ankles. No Fido is NOT friendly, or playing! This happens here all over town... not just dog parks. Which is why I stay away from it all. I avoid people and their dogs while out in public, and the only group of dogs and people I can stand to be around in my training group. 

Don't even get me going on the darn stroller thing.... I wont even start with how ridiculous that is.

Now, with that said... I do agree that dogs are wonderful animals, and they DO show emotion, and have so much heart in everything they do. That's why I love them so much. However, society has gotten to a point to where it's no longer benefiting the dog... it's actually mentally (and in some cases, psychically) harming the dogs.

Dogs don't speak human, nor do they think human. You can't mess with their psychology to make it more human... they don't understand ours! In the end, that make them nervous, dominant, lacking self confidence, aggressive, and just all around insecure... because they are confused.

I love my dogs, they mean a lot to me and I literally would give them the shirt off my back. I love to spoil them with the best foods, best toys, a good house to live in with beds and nice cool AC. I spend a ton on their care, and I have no problem with that. However, they ARE my dogs... not a human child. I follow their psychology when working with them, and train them in ways that makes sense to them. Not force them into human psychology or expect them to understand which outfit looks better with the physique.

Either extreme is bad, in my opinion. Dogs are not children, they are also not the same as you car. They do deserve a place in our hearts and to be humanly taken care of with all the proper necessities. They also need to be treated like a dog.


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

llombardo said:


> I firmly believe that if a dog is taken into the home and it has issues, getting rid of the dog would be no different then putting a child with problems up for adoption. People need to realize that while dogs aren't human they shouldn't be considered disposable either.


I firmly believe the exact opposite. However, I am not a bad pet owner. I love dogs and always have. But if the dog is interrupting the normal routines of the household and coming in the way of human children and personal relationships in the family, the dog needs to be rehomed. Chances are, if the people are stressed, the dog is stressed as well and can and will do better in a home that can willingly accommodate it's needs.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

LaneyB said:


> I agree with Dharmasmom and Wildwolf, other than the math part.
> 
> _Obviously they can't do math _
> 
> Do Dogs Know Mathematics? | Psychology Today


What??? Dharma needs to start balancing my checkbook then. Start earning her keep.


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> WHEN did we as a society decide we needed to be in everybody else's business?


:thumbup: Very good point.

As long as dogs can be purchased, they will be considered property. And one can do as they choose with their dog. Dogs can adapt to situations pretty well, and I don't find it wrong in any way if a dog is kept in a barn as long as it is properly cared for ( I would never personally be comfortable doing that, but if someone else wants to, that's their thing). I bet the dog doesn't really give a darn!


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## Jo_in_TX (Feb 14, 2012)

I'm 55 years old, so I was a child a long time ago.  Large dogs (a GSD and then later a couple of labs) were kept outside, although my miniature poodle was always an inside dog. 

HOWEVER, those dogs had a much larger, fenced in yard to play in than most dogs do today in the city and 'burbs. But the most important thing - we didn't have computers and video games, and watched very limited television. As kids, we were outside from morning until night during the summer. We played with our dogs in the backyard, and they came with us to play baseball in the field across the street. They roamed around with us. Even though they slept in a doghouse, they had plenty of attention from their pack of humans. (And they did sleep in the laundry room when the weather was too cold or too rainy.) We could leave the door open and they were trained not to wander into the kitchen. The dogs got plenty of attention from the adults, also, who weren't addicted to air conditioning, the tv, and the computer. 

Before air conditioning, most people spent a lot more time outdoors than they do today. 

Also, many dogs were allowed in the house for social interaction, but on a more limited basis. My uncle could bring four or five well-behaved golden retrievers in the house to spend time with him, and then put them out to sleep in their kennels at night. 

My husband's family always had a dog - usually collies - and with a large family and a stay-at-home mom, I'm sure the dogs got plenty of attention. They also had jobs guarding the livestock, although they weren't really used for herding. 

And some dogs did live inside. That's certainly nothing new.

One more thing - as long as there has been little girls, dogs have worn clothes. The difference back then was that little girls eventually grew up.


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## rooandtree (May 13, 2012)

im 39 years old...my oldest brother was teasing me me the other day about how when we were growning up our dogs were kept outside with a doghouse.they got fed a few cans of alpo and leftover table scraps,never had heartworm pills,wore a hartz flea collar, and only went to vet when they were sick or dieing.And yet they did live forever it seems.But here i am today and my dogs are inside, i research for weeks what is the best food, they have just as many toys as my children and i wont go out or go away as much so i can get home to my dogs....yes times have changed..but i love it and wouldnt change it..and my dogs love it too


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## Gharrissc (May 19, 2012)

Agreed. I always say that there is nothing wrong with your animals being your babies,but you also have to remember that animals have their own needs in order to be happy and balanced. I think most people spoil their animals to some degree,but it can become a problem when the animals lose themselves.People with small dogs are the *WORST *offenders.







qbchottu said:


> Yes! This is my biggest issue with anthropomorphizing animals. Completely unrealistic expectations for a creature that doesn't posses the capacity to perceive the world like a human being. Then this poor thing is faulted as a result of human ignorance.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Gharrissc said:


> Agreed. I always say that there is nothing wrong with your animals being your babies,but you also have to remember that animals have their own needs in order to be happy and balanced. I think most people spoil their animals to some degree,but it can become a problem when the animals lose themselves.People with small dogs are the *WORST *offenders.


Can you give an example of how an animal "lost itself"? 
Or how small dog owners haven't let animals have "their own needs"? What "needs" would those be?


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## Jo_in_TX (Feb 14, 2012)

Well, my shih tzu "needs" to sleep in our bed!

She also "needs" and demands fresh ice water from the fridge. She'll dump her bowl if she can, and if she can't, she'll bark at it until we tend to her "need."

Ummm....did you say "spoiled?" :wub:


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Gharrissc said:


> I think most people spoil their animals to some degree,but it can become a problem when the animals lose themselves.People with small dogs are the *WORST *offenders.


Hey! I have a small dog! I didn't realize I was being offensive.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

For me it is all Jean's fault. It was the Rocco and Rosa and the Leetle Friend's thread. (just kidding, I love that thread.)

I think it is disrespectful to try to make canines, little humans. Dogs are beautiful, intricate, intelligent beings with a range of emotions, likes, dislikes, personality. But they are not human. Thank God, they are not like humans. In some ways, their simple actions/reactions, wants, desires, needs are so much more predictable, more understandable, and something, just can't put a word around it. 

I love dogs because they are dogs. Making them little fur babies, fur kids, furry human equivalents is just not fair to them. And it causes issues. Oh, I don't like dressing them up, or putting them in a stroller, but I don't think _that_ causes issues. I let mine on the bed and sofa, and I don't think _that _creates issues. 

What I think causes problems is when people takes a normal animal behavior, like puppy biting, or pottying, humanizes the behavior, and then takes it personally when the animal does not get it yet what behavior is expected of them. Yes, most dogs can learn not to bite and where to potty. But saying a 15 week old puppy is defiant because it comes in and pees on the floor, that is just totally out there. If you approach the problem of pottying inappropriately with the idea that the dog may have a physical issue, or the dog has not yet learned where it is expected to potty, you can fix the physical, or teach the behavior you want, by supervision, corrections, and praise. But if you feel that this little persona sharing your life is defiant, then you are probably going to manage that same problem with punishment, which might work and will solidify your erroneous thinking, setting an atmosphere for higher and higher stress on the dog; or it will backfire, and the dog will be labeled stupid and dumped in a shelter for being stupid (not able to be house trained). 

People plant human emotions and logic and thinking on a dog and then manage them with respect to that. When a puppy chews up an item, a new item perhaps, it is taken personally. The puppy saw us put up that new venesian blind and was angry with us for leaving, so the puppy chewed it up to get back at us. Send the dog back to the breeder, it is flawed. 

People get the animal as a companion, but they are looking for an animal that can provide a human relationship that is totally one sided. They can take the place of having a real friend or lover or roommate, without the pain of having to figure out how to manage or live with a person with ideas that might be different than your own ideas about things. A dog has your ideas, because he can't say otherwise: He is like me, he doesn't think people should sell things door to door. He doesn't like JWs. He would rather lay on my bed all day than be outside in the yard. Well, that may be true, but given the opportunity, to lay on a sweet smelling clean bed, and rolling on a dead toad, I am guessing it may be better than 50/50 in favor of the toad. They are dogs. It is disrespectful to expect them to be humans. But it is neglectful not to teach them how to function properly as a pet in a home dominated by humans.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Selzer, people do all that no matter what size the dog. Size has nothing to do with it, that is, if you were explaining what gharr meant...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

MSVette, I was just responding to the OP, I was not saying anything whatsoever about big dogs or little dogs. Not sure where that came from.


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## Jacobs-mommy (Jun 8, 2012)

Ok i will confess, i am one of those people that likes todress my puppy but in my defense my kids are too old for me to dress them now. So a puppy is like my new baby. I do not treat my dogs like humans though. They eat, sleep on the florr and poop outside! So far my gsd has only had a bandana but i do plan on buying him booties( for the hot pavement whenwe go on walks only) and sunglasses ( just cause they look cute). I know the difference between a dog and a human though. But i do know people with lil dogs that treat the dog as an equal and that i do not understand. Then again they have no human kids so iguess that is why. Whoknows? A dog is still a dog. And some humans iknow are worse than dogs too. Lol but i wont go there!


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## wbmills (Jun 12, 2012)

DharmasMom said:


> I fully agree with this. While I don't think people should "humanize" any animal I do think that *studies are showing that animals (not just dogs) are far more capable of emotion and thought than we ever imagined*. It is being proven more and more every day that animals can bond, love, learn, and mourn than we ever knew.
> 
> We have learned that crows can problem solve and use tools. Chimpanzees, when shown a mirror, will become self aware. They have also learned to communicate with humans using sign language.
> Elephants recognize old "friends" after years of separation and will intensely grieve the loss of a friend while others will support that elephant in her grief.
> ...



Their was actually a PBS special about a year and a half ago about some dogs in a study on how well they understand humans. It was to the surprise of the scientists that dogs understand human facial expression as well as other humans. They even realize that when our eyes are closed that we are not watching them. They attributed this to the thousands of years of controlled breeding done by humans to make the perfect companion.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> Selzer, people do all that no matter what size the dog. Size has nothing to do with it, that is, if you were explaining what gharr meant...


I shouldn't have replied as to having a small dog - I was attempting to make light of a silly statement, but I seem to lack the ability to do so...thank goodness I don't make a living as a comedian!

Selzer - Great post!


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

DharmasMom said:


> I fully agree with this. While I don't think people should "humanize" any animal I do think that studies are showing that animals (not just dogs) are far more capable of emotion and thought than we ever imagined. It is being proven more and more every day that animals can bond, love, learn, and mourn than we ever knew.
> 
> We have learned that crows can problem solve and use tools. Chimpanzees, when shown a mirror, will become self aware. They have also learned to communicate with humans using sign language.
> Elephants recognize old "friends" after years of separation and will intensely grieve the loss of a friend while others will support that elephant in her grief.
> ...


If you saw Jake trying to understand and figure out light and shadows you'd think differently. He's fascinating.

He spends hours trying to figure them out. Where does this 'thing' come from and why can't he touch it or smell it. He knows these 'things' appear when birds are around, and he's determined to catch one and see what it is. It's an obsession. 

I compare him to Isaac Newton. He wasn't content with the fact that we don't fall off the earth, and apples fall down off the tree - he had to know why. 

Jake has to understand what a shadow is, and why some stay around and others disappear. It's is life's work 

He pounces on shadows and if he catches one (by that I mean it doesn't disappear) you can almost see his brain working as he looks intently at everything around him in order to discover what it is making it. He'll spend days trying to figure it out. Once he knows what it is, he loses all interest in it. 

He's the nutty professor :wub:
_________
Sue


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> When exactly did it start that people started to lose their common dog sense and started humanizing dogs to the point that dogs can't even be dogs anymore.
> 
> When has it started that you can't even keep dogs outdoors or intact anymore because that makes you an irresponsible and unfit owner and people steal your dogs because of that?
> 
> ...


I don't know. Doesn't matter to me. If they want to dress up their dog in baby clothes and stroll 'em down the street .. or stuff 'em in their purse -- so be it.  None of my business as I figure it.

*Jo_in_TX:* great post. You're so right. When I was growing up we were outside non-stop. Kids just don't seem to play like that anymore. We didn't have anything besides 3 and later 4 TV stations, haha, so there was nothing to do inside. There wasn't anything such as child abductions.. yet. We were running around the neighborhood playing hide and go seek until as late at night as we could get away with! Unfortunately, none of my friends or I had a dog, or very likely, it would've been running around with all of us.

I do believe, that due to kids & families being outside less and less, that a lot of dogs suffer an existence of just being a fixture. Fed and watered, but just something to park out back. This is quite the opposite of "humanizing" the dog -- maybe the best place is in between these extremes?

Personally, I'll take the humanizer owner over the neglectful owner any day.

Living outside doesn't constitute neglect. Having dogs live indoors doesn't make a good owner. Only one person on that whole thread was adamently opposed to outdoor dogs. 

I've never heard this Dog Guardian term. Don't think I'll be using it. Sounds dorky to me.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Lilie said:


> I shouldn't have replied as to having a small dog - I was attempting to make light of a silly statement, but I seem to lack the ability to do so...thank goodness I don't make a living as a comedian!


No you were fine 

It was the generalized statement made earlier I was questioning


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## Gharrissc (May 19, 2012)

I didn't say that all small dogs owners are like this.I have met plenty of small dogs who are balanced and happy. The comment about being lost in themselves was meant for all people who spoil their dogs to the point of it being harmful to the dog (I.E. behavioral problems). I thought I was being pretty clear in what I said.I didn't say anything about being lost pertaining to only small dogs. You may not agree,but a lot,not all people with small dogs let them get away with everything and don't feel that they have to have the same rules as bigger dogs. It's almost as if just because a dogs weighs 5 lbs,they become a fashion accessory for some. 




msvette2u said:


> Can you give an example of how an animal "lost itself"?
> Or how small dog owners haven't let animals have "their own needs"? What "needs" would those be?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Gharrissc said:


> I didn't say that all small dogs owners are like this.I have met plenty of small dogs who are balanced and happy. The comment about being lost in themselves was meant for all people who spoil their dogs to the point of it being harmful to the dog (I.E. behavioral problems). I thought I was being pretty clear in what I said.I didn't say anything about being lost pertaining to only small dogs.





> I think most people spoil their animals to some degree,but *it can become a problem when the animals lose themselves. People with small dogs are the WORST offenders.*


I still do not know what "lose themselves" means. And you did actually say small dogs (or people with) are the "worst offenders", and again, I'd like an example or two if you can provide one.

Because IMO, statements like this are very knee-jerk reactions or statements but I really do not know what that means when people say it.
It's rather like saying "I have no time for this dog" when we all know "enough time" is relative, it's really an abstract statement with no meaning at all, or at least no reference point to start from.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

PupperLove said:


> I firmly believe the exact opposite. However, I am not a bad pet owner. I love dogs and always have. But if the dog is interrupting the normal routines of the household and coming in the way of human children and personal relationships in the family, the dog needs to be rehomed. Chances are, if the people are stressed, the dog is stressed as well and can and will do better in a home that can willingly accommodate it's needs.


Let me explain what I mean by issues...the dog barks to much, the dog pees in the house, the dog jumps on the kids, the dogs knocked the kids over...yes dogs are given up for these very reasons ALL the time...making them disposable...Lots of people will get rid of the very dog that had any of these issues and go right on to the next dog only to destroy any chances of that one getting a home too and the cycle goes on and on and on. It goes back to the humans...they get a dog, do nothing with it and expect it to be this wonderful trained dog in the door. All of the issues that I've described are very manageable, but people choose the easy way out. For example if someone thinks the dog is coming in the way of human children because it jumps on them, then they have failed because it was their responsibility to teach the dog right and wrong. So now there is one more dog added to a large number of already homeless dogs with the same issues. So anyone can disagree but people like this should not own any dogs IMO. We choose them, they don't choose us. Most people have a connection with their dogs and will do whatever they can to give that dog a good life, but the number of people that don't and can't find the time in their schedules to do so shouldn't even bother, its scary to think how that number is increasing.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

wbmills said:


> Their was actually a PBS special about a year and a half ago about some dogs in a study on how well they understand humans. It was to the surprise of the scientists that dogs understand human facial expression as well as other humans. They even realize that when our eyes are closed that we are not watching them. They attributed this to the thousands of years of controlled breeding done by humans to make the perfect companion.


seeing as how their olfactory senses are so uber developed, and they can hear what we cannot, just watching them watch us and our body language, really, almost makes them superior to the human! :help:
Lucky for us, we have thumbs! Can you imagine if they could figure out how to type?


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## Gharrissc (May 19, 2012)

Since what I said offended some people up here,I will correct myself and say that some people with small dogs are the worst offenders.I've had small dogs before,and am not against them. I am against people turning their little dogs into living fashion statements. 
I didn't realize that you had to be so politically correct to avoid having your head ripped off. I do know what I meant though. An example of a dog losing themselves is being with owners who have may love them,but only think about their emotional needs,instead of taking into account the needs of the animal. An example of a dogs losing themselves to me is when they can't relate to other dogs are just everyday life in general because they have owners who shield them from everything. The dog becomes obessed with the owner(s) because they haven't been made to learn how to coexist on their own and they become insecure.You may not agree or know what I mean,and that's fine.That's an example dogs losing themselves in my opinion. I have seen things like this happen before with loving owners,but they obsess over the dogs so much, it become like a fatal attraction type deal. The dogs mirror that behavior. 





msvette2u said:


> I still do not know what "lose themselves" means. And you did actually say small dogs (or people with) are the "worst offenders", and again, I'd like an example or two if you can provide one.
> 
> Because IMO, statements like this are very knee-jerk reactions or statements but I really do not know what that means when people say it.
> It's rather like saying "I have no time for this dog" when we all know "enough time" is relative, it's really an abstract statement with no meaning at all, or at least no reference point to start from.


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## Jacobs-mommy (Jun 8, 2012)

wbmills said:


> Their was actually a PBS special about a year and a half ago about some dogs in a study on how well they understand humans. It was to the surprise of the scientists that dogs understand human facial expression as well as other humans. They even realize that when our eyes are closed that we are not watching them. They attributed this to the thousands of years of controlled breeding done by humans to make the perfect companion.


Was that the special where at the end there was a dog with over a hundred toys and he knew them all by name and could pick out the one his owner asked for out of a huge pile justby hearing the toys name? I think the dog was a border collie, if im not mistaken.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

There was a Dobe that arranged toys in patterns...how to explain that one?


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## Jo_in_TX (Feb 14, 2012)

How is my shih tzu supposed to relate to other dogs? 

Arrange a playdate? Seek group therapy?

:rofl:


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Gharrissc said:


> Since what I said offended some people up here,I will correct myself and say that some people with small dogs are the worst offenders.I've had small dogs before,and am not against them. I am against people turning their little dogs into living fashion statements.
> *I didn't realize that you had to be so politically correct to avoid having your head ripped off*....


Welcome to the forum!!!!!! :laugh: 

The whole small dog thing has come up plenty. You're right in that many small dog owners coddle them so much and let them behave badly because they're little. I own a little dog (17 lbs) and I'm not offended.  She doesn't jump up and doesn't bark her fool head off or the other things many people don't like in small dogs.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

As I'm reading through all the replies I'm finding that there is a fine line between "a dog being treated like part of the family" and "dogs becoming human" Just because a dog wears a sweater or bandana doesn't mean that we are making it human..maybe its cold, it helps with shedding, or it just looks cute(more so on smaller dogs)Just because a dog is kept inside like the rest of the family doesn't mean we are making it human, maybe they are a part of the family for most people. We train, socialize, feed, play, and yes some of us talk to them, but it doesn't mean that its because dogs are human. We enjoy their antics, their personalities, their ability to love unconditionally, and their company...sadly some people can't offer what dogs do. In reality if all of us were to make a list on what we do for kids as they are growing up and compare it to what we do for our dogs, it is close to the same thing. We nurture both, we feed both, we in a sense socialize both, we discipline both, we take them to the doctor/vet, we play with them, we give them baths, we take them on vacations.etc. So is it because we are making them human or just treating them like one of the family????


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## Gharrissc (May 19, 2012)

This is how dogs all dogs are supposed to act.




chelle said:


> Welcome to the forum!!!!!! :laugh:
> 
> I own a little dog (17 lbs) and I'm not offended.  She doesn't jump up and doesn't bark her fool head off or the other things many people don't like in small dogs.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Dogs are not human and never will be any more than a human will ever be a dog.

We, as a more "advanced" species, have a responsibility to treat animals with respect and care. 

I think when we humanize dogs, or other animals, we do so because they give us unconditional love and it is replacing something in our lives. For me, it's like having a young child around. My kids are grown and my focus is on Jax. It doesn't mean I humanize her, at least not consciously, but she does fill a void left by my kids growing up.


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## Jacobs-mommy (Jun 8, 2012)

ok i found the video i was thinking about. ill share it cause it is interesting and it shows how human like dogs can be. 

The Dog Who Knows 1,000 Words 2/9/2011 - YouTube


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> Dogs are not human and never will be any more than a human will ever be a dog.
> 
> We, as a more "advanced" species, have a responsibility to treat animals with respect and care.
> 
> I think when we humanize dogs, or other animals, we do so because they give us unconditional love and it is replacing something in our lives. For me, it's like having a young child around. My kids are grown and my focus is on Jax. It doesn't mean I humanize her, at least not consciously, but she does fill a void left by my kids growing up.


Then it would be safe to say that even though Jax is not human she is still treated like part of the family, right? So the question really should be does a family member have to be human?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Jacobs-mommy said:


> ok i found the video i was thinking about. ill share it cause it is interesting and it shows how human like dogs can be.
> 
> The Dog Who Knows 1,000 Words 2/9/2011 - YouTube


I've seen this before, very smart dog


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## rooandtree (May 13, 2012)

that video was awesome!! what a smart dog!


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Gharrissc said:


> This is how dogs all dogs are supposed to act.


True enough, wouldn't that be nice?? :wild:


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

llombardo said:


> Then it would be safe to say that even though Jax is not human she is still treated like part of the family, right? So the question really should be does a family member have to be human?


All of our animals are part of the family. That does not make them a "family member". Jax is not my daughter. She is my dog.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> All of our animals are part of the family. That does not make them a "family member". Jax is not my daughter. She is my dog.


Fair enough but who determines that a family member has to be human? My dogs are also my family members and not human. What is really done differently between a human family member and a not human family member?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> An example of a dogs losing themselves to me is when they can't relate to other dogs are just everyday life in general


If you want to be technical, dogs living with us, period, is artificial. 
In the old - old days  dogs just wandered around, doing their own thing, and all the dogs got along as a rule. 
Then came leashes and leash laws and dogs started having problems w/each other including aggression towards other dogs and leash reactivity as well as other issues cropping up.

What I mean is...how do you know what the dog would have been like anyway? We meet dogs of all breeds and sizes who have the issues you describe, with unknown history but neglect is pretty much a given. Their owners didn't deprive them but they have issues all the same.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

llombardo said:


> Fair enough but who determines that a family member has to be human?


Nobody does. It's a personal choice. How you define a family member vs how I define a family member. And probably just semantics anyways. 



llombardo said:


> My dogs are also my family members and not human.


that's fine. That's how you view your dogs. 



llombardo said:


> What is really done differently between a human family member and a not human family member?


I don't think it's what is done differently. If she's sick she goes to the vet. She gets the best food and supplements I can afford. With all the training we do...I guess in a way I send her to college. lol

I think it's in your personal philosophy of what constitutes a "family member".


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Semantics, really.

My dogs, in my mind, are family members. They live in the house, want to be in the house, sleep in the house, etc.. These goofballs do not want to be outside without me, or they're camped at the door waiting. I can go in for 22 seconds to use the bathroom, and there.. they... are.  

They do trump some humans.  

At the end of the day, though -- they're dogs. Four legged, bug eating, bee chasing, butt licking, occasional cat poop chowing -- dogs. They want what they want and that's great! but they don't always get it. I rule their lives, not the other way around. 

When they buy the dog food, I'll consider a rule change.


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## Pryght (Apr 9, 2008)

:thumbup:




JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I think there is a growing awareness that animals are capable of far more than we thought - not just dogs - other animals as well, and that people who want to, can open their minds to that, and see where it goes.
> 
> Dogs can show empathy. It seems part of their very nature. We on the other hand, do not seem to always have this as an innate part of who we are - but perhaps it is not a bad idea to see what you can see from a dog's eye view.
> 
> ...


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## jetscarbie (Feb 29, 2008)

I don't see how a person doesn't get attached to their animal. I'm sorry...but when my cat died a few weeks ago, I cried for days. My heart was broke. I've read some of the RIP threads on here. They are as sad as if that person lost any family member. Maybe I am the lone freak on here......but my would be absolutely devastated if one of my dogs died.

I don't live in fantasyland. I know they are just dogs. Still....I really do consider them my best friends.

I really don't think people dressing their dogs or treating their dogs good equals humanizing a dog. I really think it means a person invested in getting a member of their family. Most knew it would require some amount of hard work. Potty training, training, etc..their dog. Being with your dog during illness or surgeries. Taking care of your dog. Over time, I just don't see how you can NOT be invested in loving your dog.

I've heard that dogs heal people. They can't explain why except it just makes that person feel better. I can believe that 110%.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

A dog can be a family member and still be a dog.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

We are individuals. Unique. Different. We all have a mind of our own, a spirit and personality unique to us. How we view anything in life is unique to us as individuals, and doesn't automatically make something wrong just because the other person doesn't feel the same way.

To me, Hunter is family. I make an effort every day to make sure he is enjoying *his* life, and having his needs/instincts fulfilled. For example, taking him off leash in a private, extremely low traffic forest so that he can be a dog. Sniff things, dig, chase stuff - whatever he wants.

He has beds to sleep in, I feed him the best food I possibly can, tons of different collars and leashes. He spends a lot of time sleeping on the couch with his head on a pillow. Sleeps in my bed. Gets attentions, love, treats through out the day. If he's sick or not feeling well, I will do whatever it takes to make him better. Those are just a few things that I do for him, just as I would do for another family member.

Hunter is a dog. His ancestors were wild animals. He is separate from the modern human world. I love him for that. I respect him for that. I do not call him a human, even though he enjoys human things. He is a dog. He is a canine. He is a carnivore. A predator. An instinctual being. I love him for it all. I love dogs for exactly what they are, even if I put a bandana on him for fun. The bandana... the pillow he rests his head on... giving him that makes ME feel good. I'm sure he enjoys the pillow, but I know he wouldn't be upset if he didn't have it. He really wouldn't care.

Dogs are what they are, regardless of what their people do to them. It is US, the HUMAN, that gets enjoyment and fulfillment out of so many of the things dogs get to wear, eat, snack on, do, etc.

*I hope I made sense. I respect how everyone feels about their dog, how they fit their dog into their life - all I ask is that people respect me and mine... and respect how I want to co-exist with my dog.*


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

As I'm sitting here this morning, scratching Jax's butt cuz that's what she likes best, I'm going to take back what I said last night. Yes, our dogs are part of our family and ARE family members. Thanks llombardo for your responses!  I talk to Jax, I play with her, I feed her, I care for her health, I love her. This morning she jumped up on the bed in sheer joy to be scratched, rubbed and to lick my face from top to bottom. I AM her pack. I AM her family. So how could she be any less than a member of the family? :wub: What WAS I thinking last night?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

jetscarbie said:


> I don't see how a person doesn't get attached to their animal. I'm sorry...but when my cat died a few weeks ago, I cried for days. My heart was broke. I've read some of the RIP threads on here. They are as sad as if that person lost any family member. Maybe I am the lone freak on here......but my would be absolutely devastated if one of my dogs died.
> 
> I don't live in fantasyland. I know they are just dogs. Still....I really do consider them my best friends.
> 
> ...


:thumbup:


Sorry about your cat You are not a lone freak, most people feel this way even if they don't care to admit it We do take care of them when they are sick and they take care of us when we are ill or sad..the only difference is we actually know what we are doing(most of the time) with them, they just do it, because that is what they do


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> As I'm sitting here this morning, scratching Jax's butt cuz that's what she likes best, I'm going to take back what I said last night. Yes, our dogs are part of our family and ARE family members. Thanks llombardo for your responses!  I talk to Jax, I play with her, I feed her, I care for her health, I love her. This morning she jumped up on the bed in sheer joy to be scratched, rubbed and to lick my face from top to bottom. I AM her pack. I AM her family. So how could she be any less than a member of the family? :wub: What WAS I thinking last night?


You guys are lucky to have each other
Who else would scratch her butt


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

As long as she doesn't try to start scratching mine! We might have issues then!


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## dzg (Apr 23, 2012)

Excellent thread.
I feel like throwing up when I hear people referring to themselves as Mommy/Daddy of the dog, so many dogs with beahvioural problems because owners try to apply human characteristics adn thinking to the dogs.

My workmate got a Shih-Tzu several months back, seems the dog is lazy and gets tired on a walk around the block. So they went and bought a $600 designer dog stroller ... it looks like a baby stroller, dog is placed in the stroller and then he is carted around the block ... this is now considered the dogs daily walk! 

Also for last month husband sleeps on couch and dog sleeps with his "mommy" in the bed .... if husband is in bed dog cries so of-course husband loses out.

Luckily Europe still has its brains and dogs are dogs and most of my German friends won't even let their dogs up on furniture or beds.
Dogs do best when the relationshi is clearly defined as "Owner and pet"


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Also for last month husband sleeps on couch and dog sleeps with his "mommy" in the bed .... if husband is in bed dog cries so of-course husband loses out.


To be clear, this is a human and/or marital problem, not a dog problem.


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## Loneforce (Feb 12, 2012)

Im pretty sure untill my dogs start using the toilet, wiping their butts, then flushing when done. They will be dogs to me. They are not just dogs though...They are family


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Loneforce said:


> Im pretty sure untill my dogs start using the toilet, wiping their butts, then flushing when done. They will be dogs to me. They are not just dogs though...They are family


I keep saying, when my start earning a paycheck, but then Libby went and did just that, so maybe they _are_ more than family 
:laugh:


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## Jacobs-mommy (Jun 8, 2012)

dzg said:


> Excellent thread.
> I feel like throwing up when I hear people referring to themselves as Mommy/Daddy of the dog, so many dogs with beahvioural problems because owners try to apply human characteristics adn thinking to the dogs.
> 
> My workmate got a Shih-Tzu several months back, seems the dog is lazy and gets tired on a walk around the block. So they went and bought a $600 designer dog stroller ... it looks like a baby stroller, dog is placed in the stroller and then he is carted around the block ... this is now considered the dogs daily walk!
> ...


I am offended by this. I know the difference between owner and pet but while jacobis still in the training stage he is like having another kid to have to tell what to do and when to do it so in a sense i am his mommy too. In my household that is my role...mom! I see nothing wrong with people saying they are a dogs mom as long as they dont carry it too far. The stroller is a bit too far, i agree there. So i may be his owner but ican also say that i am fulfilling the role of mom too because im the one that must feed, bathe, and train him!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I have Dachshunds. They are small in package but not in might, or attitude!

That said, when it gets cold (or even right now if the house doesn't warm up during the day) they occasionally need sweaters or jackets. 
When Copper (rest in peace) became ill with Cushing's, a hallmark is loss of muscle tissue in the hindquarters, so we had to buy a wagon to tote him in. The best and last photos I have of him are of him being pulled, at the Dachshund parade, in his wagon. 
That doesn't mean he was a "baby" to me. It means we cared enough to still bring him even when he was too physically impaired to make it on his own.

For anyone who lives in a hot climate, too, or one that gets seasonably hot, you'd know that it's detrimental to dogs to walk on hot sidewalks, and especially small dogs.

How about just being happy people bring their dogs out, and take them for walks, instead of running people down, because you may, in fact, not know the whole story.


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## Jo_in_TX (Feb 14, 2012)

My kids call me mom and their dad refers to me as mom when he's talking about me, so I can't imagine being anyone else but mom to my dog! It's the name she hears! And while Teddy won't ever sleep on our bed, our shih tzu does. There's plenty enough room for a little dog, my husband, and me!


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Jacobs-mommy said:


> I am offended by this. I know the difference between owner and pet but while jacobis still in the training stage he is like having another kid to have to tell what to do and when to do it so in a sense i am his mommy too. In my household that is my role...mom! I see nothing wrong with people saying they are a dogs mom as long as they dont carry it too far.


Same here. Don't be offended--I call myself "Mom" and my husband "Daddy" in regard to our dogs and cats. I think a lot of people do, but most of us don't mean it literally. We can call ourselves whatever we want to, as long as we keep reality in perspective. 

I call my clients doggie Moms and Dads too, and myself "Auntie", to the client's pets, and they don't seem to take offense.

What bothers me way more than "Mom" and "Dad" is "Guardian".


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Freestep, exactly...!
I'm "mama" and hubby's "daddy". LOL it's fun. Maybe I need a life 

But I have fur-siblings too! 
And have to trim their nails and do their anal glands because my parents are afraid to do those things themselves! I'd never do that to my human siblings. LOL


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

dzg said:


> Excellent thread.
> I feel like throwing up when I hear people referring to themselves as Mommy/Daddy of the dog,


Get your puke bucket ready.

I am Hunter's mummie. :3


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I may refer to myself as mom on occasion. Usually it is "don't hurt the Susie." But I hate it when other people refer to me as Mom to my dogs. I am sorry, but I NEVER do that in public. I find it condescending. 

My mom is "momma" to Cujo, and my dad is "daddy" to Cujo. "Go get Daddy." I was momma to Cujo's momma so that would make me Grandma to Cujo which would make me my parents', wait, I am getting way confused. This is like a major identity crisis. My brother is a dog, or is he my grandson? I am momma to his sisters, which makes me momma to him too. I think. And his sisters' babies, and grand babies. It is a family affair.


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

dzg said:


> Excellent thread.
> I feel like throwing up when I hear people referring to themselves as Mommy/Daddy of the dog, so many dogs with beahvioural problems because owners try to apply human characteristics adn thinking to the dogs.
> 
> My workmate got a Shih-Tzu several months back, seems the dog is lazy and gets tired on a walk around the block. So they went and bought a $600 designer dog stroller ... it looks like a baby stroller, dog is placed in the stroller and then he is carted around the block ... this is now considered the dogs daily walk!
> ...


As much as I agree with the stroller and bed thing 100%..... I DO, however, use "mom" "dad" on occasion. Not sure why people would find that so horrifying? 

No, I am not confused or have any maternal problems. And my dogs are completely normal. My dogs are dogs... they sleep in a crate at night, are not allowed on ANY furniture other then their own dog beds (which they have because my house is mostly tile and Z's hips are really bad), they do NOT get table scraps or anything other then the rare treat, bone, and of course their kibble, when we go out together.. they walk on a leash next to us (or they stay home in their crates), no strollers, no outfits, they have NEVER been allowed near our bed... and my SO would never be replaced by them (though some days I do want to throw him in the kennel with the dogs at night!!). So, no... there's no confusion there. In my house, a dog is a dog... period.

However, my dogs _are_ family to me. I love them, they watch over me and I look after them. They may be my dogs, but they are also my companions. I put a lot of time, money, and effort into their training and happiness. I get them the best food possible, the best toys and beds.. etc. Nothing wrong with that. I would do the same if I had a cat... or a bird. I want my pets to have the best care possible. That's part of the commitment you make when you buy a pet.

To me, telling them to "go bother daddy instead" or "don't jump on mommy" occasionally isn't exactly a crazy or inappropriate thing to do. Now, do I dress my dog up, put it in a high chair and ask them how much they love their mommy and to eat nicely for mommy... No. 

It's an innocent thing to do and for the most part, the majority of people don't do it for a fashion trend, maternal problems, or confusion of any sort. You have something you care for day in and day out that has a heart, personality, and a mind of their own.... it's naturally something you are nurturing.. like a mother. It's just a natural instinct for people.. especially woman. That has nothing to do with people getting them confused with real human children. I certainly do not, and most of the people I know that do the same do not either.

I would bet the majority of members on this board have/do use "mommy" and "daddy" on occasion and I am also pretty sure the majority of the members here can clearly understand and see the fine line between a human child and a pet.

So go ahead.. pray to the porcelain gods all you like. I don't merge with society in being "PC", and I most definitely will not sensor myself because it doesn't "float someone's boat". My dogs love their mommy!


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## jetscarbie (Feb 29, 2008)

I'm pretty sure I have a picture somewhere of my dog wearing an Underdog costume....with cape and all.

The forum on here I hate/love the most b/c it always makes me cry...is the saying goodbye forum and the RIP forum. If you EVER want to read how a dog is PART of the family....just read those forums. Truly, nothing but true love on both of those forums. 

The truth is.....dogs really do have very short life spans compared to humans. Your dog is in your life for a moment in time. I knew when we got our first dog.......it was going to be an up and down emotional journey with him. That's why I fought getting a dog for so long. I think most of us on here realize that. You can't read some of these threads without feeling sadness b/c we all know at one point....we may be there with our beloved friends. All it takes is one "please respond ASAP, my dog bloated" to bring on a sense of dread or a thread similar to that. We all realize that some events happen quick!!

Myself, I plan on enjoying the heck out of my dogs. I'm going to spoil them, train them, play with them, cuddle with them, and LOVE them. Sometimes I am going to put silly stuff on them and take tons of pictures just because. Heck, I even talk to mine sometimes.  Sure, in the grand scheme of things....a dog is a dog. I personally think my dogs have a great life. I know for sure I would love to have their life. They make me HAPPY, so that's, IMO, all that is important.

If I could figure out how to get my dogs to pick up their own poop...we would really be super good around here.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

It's funny that it went from humanizing a dog to "a dog is a member of the family." 

I never said that a dog can't be a member of the family. A dog can be a member of the family while not being humanized. The family member is actually not even a question. All of mine are a member of my family. What I don't do is that I do not humanize a dog to the point where the dog can't be a dog anymore.


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## Pryght (Apr 9, 2008)

How does one humanize a dog to the point where the dog can't be a dog anymore? 



Mrs.K said:


> What I don't do is that I do not humanize a dog to the point where the dog can't be a dog anymore.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> What I don't do is that I do not humanize a dog to the point where the dog can't be a dog anymore.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

I think I need a definition on what humanizing a dog actually is. ?

Apply human standards to dogs? Since I sleep in a bed, the dog needs to? Since I am cold, the dog is cold? Or, my mom's -- mom prefers ice water, so the dog must prefer it too? (and gets it.)

Am I on the right track with that?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think humanizing a dog is to forget that the dog is a species separate from our own. Dogs are dogs. They have different body language and cues. They often like to be outside for extended periods of time (at least one I had would rather sleep outside than be inside 99% of the time). Thinking the dog REQUIRES the same "comforts" that we think we need is humanizing it, IMO. Letting the dog on the bed is not humanizing them. Letting the dog drive your husband out of the bed because it's your baby IS humanizing it. Dressing them up like an accessory is humanizing it.


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## Gmthrust (Mar 3, 2010)




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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> I think humanizing a dog is to forget that the dog is a species separate from our own. Dogs are dogs. They have different body language and cues. They often like to be outside for extended periods of time (at least one I had would rather sleep outside than be inside 99% of the time). Thinking the dog REQUIRES the same "comforts" that we think we need is humanizing it, IMO. Letting the dog on the bed is not humanizing them. Letting the dog drive your husband out of the bed because it's your baby IS humanizing it. Dressing them up like an accessory is humanizing it.


Yup. That's it. 

Pretty much applying human feelings, standards, viewing a dog as accessories rather than dogs, overfeeding because you love them so much, parfuming them because they smell like dog and you rather want them smell like strawberries... 

Don't get me wrong, I don't have any issues with dog wearing protective gear like a winter-blanket when it's below 0 and it's a breed like a Doberman without the protective double coat. But seeing a Shepherd with a wintercoat because it's fashionable or a rainjacket because "he could get wet" takes the icing from the cake. 
Babytalking to a dog. Dog weddings... birthday parties, nothing wrong with a gift if you like doing stuff like that, but that's all falling into the category of humanizing the dog. 
The dog has no idea what a birthday is. Or what Christmas is.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

this is humanizing dogs. 









so is this: http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/dogs-5-000-wedding-amenities-171017513.html


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> Babytalking to a dog. Dog weddings... birthday parties, nothing wrong with a gift if you like doing stuff like that, but that's all falling into the category of humanizing the dog.
> The dog has no idea what a birthday is. Or what Christmas is.


No, they don't. People do it for themselves, to get enjoyment out of such things. If it isn't harming anyone, and both human and dog benefit, why is it so wrong?


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## Jacobs-mommy (Jun 8, 2012)

Dainerra said:


> this is humanizing dogs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


See thats the point when i think a person has went too far!

And if i may add... Those dogs had a bigger wedding than me! Some people just have too much money to waste i guess.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

I was just getting ready to say how I do NOT humanize my dogs!

Then I remembered their birthday:

















Oops. 

And I am really guilty on the baby talk. 

They will NOT get married, however!


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## jetscarbie (Feb 29, 2008)

chelle said:


> I was just getting ready to say how I do NOT humanize my dogs!
> 
> Then I remembered their birthday:
> 
> ...


 
HAHAHA. That is awesome.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I celebrate my dogs birthday too The first birthday is always the most special, but every year they get a birthday cake or biscuit and a new toy


http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/images/attach/jpg.gif

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/images/attach/jpg.gif


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> It's funny that it went from humanizing a dog to "a dog is a member of the family."
> 
> I never said that a dog can't be a member of the family. A dog can be a member of the family while not being humanized. The family member is actually not even a question. All of mine are a member of my family. What I don't do is that I do not humanize a dog to the point where the dog can't be a dog anymore.


I think in the main post when it was stated about a dog being an outside dog was the start of it...A family member doesn't live outside and that is just my opinion...Just because I don't do it doesn't mean that other people can't. I might not like it, but its not my business. I don't think that one is humanizing a dog because they put a sweater on their dog. I use sweaters to control shedding all the time. They also have xmas outfits that I put on and take pictures of them in front of the xmas tree...these turn out to be gorgeous xmas cards. I also don't think baby talk is humanizing them...I've caught myself being quite gentle with them with speaking if they aren't feeling well, or if they fall off the bed while they are sleeping(GSD does this all the time) I tend to think that if its 100 degrees out and I'm hot, that the dog probably is too. I take into consideration what I think they might be feeling but I don't base it on my own feelings all the time.


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## Jacobs-mommy (Jun 8, 2012)

I am guilty of celebrating my pets birthdays as well but id never spend 5000 on a wedding for my pets. The most my pets get is a treat, like a cake or cupcake or that new doggy ice cream, and a toy or collar or something. Im talking under 20. I spend 50 on my human kids so i think thats being fair. Same goes for christmas and any other holiday. My pets are a part of the family and plus my kids like buying gifts for everyone, including our pets. I think humanizing your pets is when you carry them arou d in your purse or they have as many outfits as you do, etc. Or like the previous example spending 5000 for a doggy wedding or even havung a doggy wedding. Sad thing is all this talk is making me jealous of these dogs. They live a fancier life than me!


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## Pryght (Apr 9, 2008)

We need to accept that the expectations of what characterizes a dog is in constant flux. Our culture is constantly changing...as is our designation of what a dog is, what it should do, and how it should be treated. 

Is it considered "humanizing" a dog when we give it tasks that were previously completed by humans, especially when these new tasks suppress and harness their canine instincts? Thousands of years ago, did human shepherds "humanize" dogs as they gave the dogs new responsibilities over their flocks of sheep? Were they "letting the dog be a dog" as they trained dogs to control their prey drives? If anything, humans were using the dog's strengths and suppressing and re-directing some of their instincts (don't kill the sheep), to perform a human task (something that we also see canine officers do today).

See, like it or not, a dog's purpose is changing and evolving over time as human wants and desires change over time...and there is nothing wrong with it...

Many people provide additional comforts because it makes THEM feel better on the inside. Most humans are very empathetic creatures. In order to empathize with an animal, we have to place ourselves in their position, leading people to ask themselves, is my dog happy? Are we humanizing the dog when we do this...I don't think so. We are attempting to satisfy their needs. 

Onto the subject of dog clothing where I will share my unpopular opinion... A nudist doesn't become "caninized" when they remove clothing, much like a dog doesn't become humanized when clothing is put on! In this case, much as a canine acts as a shepherd to serve its master's wants, so is the dog who is dressed in ridiculous costumes (let's hope the dog's social needs are met as people positively interact with a dressed up pet). On the surface, dressed up and being carried around in a handbag may not be as utilitarian as a dog that watches over a flock of sheep, but make no mistake, both dogs do share one thing in common...both are satisfying their master's needs. The need isn't to make the dog more human, but rather to make the human (and hopefully the dog?)  happy.

Hence, putting a raincoat on a dog doesn't make it any less of a dog. Much like my children wearing Halloween costumes don't make them any less human. It makes it a dog in a raincoat, and a child in a costume, nothing more and nothing less.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Leash laws and traffic stopped dogs being dogs - not owners. 

Dogs are now prisoners. They chose to live with us thousands of years ago - now they have no choice. 

They are either lucky or unlucky with the owners they end up with. 
_________
Sue


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

jakes mom said:


> Leash laws and traffic stopped dogs being dogs - not owners.
> 
> Dogs are now prisoners. They chose to live with us thousands of years ago - now they have no choice.
> 
> ...


This is so true. There should be a law on who can own them


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think baby talking is ok to them. As long as it is not nauseating. Dogs really respond to a happy voice just like infants. So I don't have a problem with that. And, within reason putting things on your dog, fancy collar, sweater if the breed warrants it, boots if necessary (can make them more comfortable). I don't have a problem with people celebrating their dogs' birthdays or remembering them at Christmas. No the dog cannot understand the concepts of their birth day or Christmas, but they do understand presents, if that is something people do with their dogs. A treat or a toy, watching them open it is half the fun. 

I think that if the things that you do to your dog blurs how you perceive the dog. You can call the dog your baby, but if you are constantly carrying it around in your arm like a baby, put a bonnet on it, wear a diaper on it regularly and without a physical problem that warrants it. When you blur the lines between whether this is a dog or a baby, that is a problem. 

And when you put human expectations on a dog's behavior and take it personally if the dog doesn't act the way you would expect a human to act. For example, let's say a little ankle biter comes up and bites your dog, your dog is 80 pounds and outweighs the dog by 70 pounds. But it wheels and bites the small dog. Scolding your dog for hurting the little dog or being horrified because your dog killed the little dog in the encounter, because he was so much bigger than the other dog and shouldn't have done that. That is humanizing the dog. Dogs do not have the same moral structure, the same tabboos, the same cultural values. And yes a dog will impregnate a sister, mother, daughter given the opportunity. Not realizing that, means you have seriously lost the destinction between human and dog. Expecting a dog to share with his _brother _whether his brother is a littermate, or a sibling by birth, or just lives in the same house. To some extent, expecting a dog that has gone to his new home at eight weeks of age to recognize his dam, sire, or siblings a couple of years later, understanding the kinship. 

We can train behaviors in our dogs that makes it pleasant for them to share in our lives. And we should. We shouldn't expect them to behave as humans would in situations without being trained to do so.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

jakes mom said:


> Leash laws and traffic stopped dogs being dogs - not owners.
> 
> Dogs are now prisoners. They chose to live with us thousands of years ago - now they have no choice.
> 
> ...



Dogs are not the same as they were thousands of years ago. They are prisoners, sort of, because our society is not safe for them to roam about in, but also because we have bred the wild nature of the beast out and through selective breeding, have produced a domestic dog. The domestic dog can hook up with other canines and survive for a while in the wild, maybe. But most of them will die on their own. They are no longer equipped to be wild. 

Our dogs do not understand the concept of prisoners. Prisoners are human beings who are being held captive for some reason, some wrong doing on the part of the prisoner, or on the part of the jailer. A dog does not sit within his kennel and think of his loved ones, and think of what he did to get himself penned up, and think of how many hours, days, months, years he has to serve before being let out into general population again. Referring to dogs as prisoners is kind of like humanizing them.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Pryght said:


> We need to accept that the expectations of what characterizes a dog is in constant flux. Our culture is constantly changing...as is our designation of what a dog is, what it should do, and how it should be treated.
> 
> Is it considered "humanizing" a dog when we give it tasks that were previously completed by humans, especially when these new tasks suppress and harness their canine instincts? Thousands of years ago, did human shepherds "humanize" dogs as they gave the dogs new responsibilities over their flocks of sheep? Were they "letting the dog be a dog" as they trained dogs to control their prey drives? If anything, humans were using the dog's strengths and suppressing and re-directing some of their instincts (don't kill the sheep), to perform a human task (something that we also see canine officers do today).
> 
> ...



I think this is an interesting point. If you dress your dog up because it looks neat, silly, cute, and are doing it just for fun, or if you are doing it because the dog has a coat or lack of a coat where he needs a raincoat, etc. That can be ok. If you are doing it to satisfy a deeper need, to replace a lost child, to take the place of a human relationship, then you are in danger of going overboard with the dog. 

When people spend thousands on permanents and jewelry for their dog, so that when they step out in the public eye, their dog fits well with their decor. And then within a few months you dump that dog because it no longer fits in with your lifestyle -- then it is an accessory, a status symbol. I don't think that is humanizing the dog as much as it is dehumanizing the person.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

selzer said:


> Referring to dogs as prisoners is kind of like humanizing them.


Can't agree with that. If a dog is mistreated or starved they can hardly get up and leave and fend for themselves, even if they're capable - so they are prisoners, or trapped or whatever word we choose to use. 
________
Sue


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

jakes mom said:


> Can't agree with that. If a dog is mistreated or starved they can hardly get up and leave and fend for themselves, even if they're capable - so they are prisoners, or trapped or whatever word we choose to use.
> ________
> Sue


I am sorry, but no dog can fend for themselves. Some dogs have survived being loose/lost for a period, but they are not provisioned to fend for themselves. So in your definition, because they cannot get up and leave, ALL of our dogs are prisoners. 

That is so humanizing it is disgusting. Our dogs share our beds, our dinners, our couch, our swimming pools, but they are prisoners, because they are not free to go and see if the grass is greener on the other side. 

Ok, my dogs will now refer to me as The Warden.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

You've took my comment completely wrong. I call myself Mom, because I hope my dogs have always been happy with the home they have been lucky enough to end up in. 
_________
Sue


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

selzer said:


> I think baby talking is ok to them. As long as it is not nauseating. Dogs really respond to a happy voice just like infants. So I don't have a problem with that. And, within reason putting things on your dog, fancy collar, sweater if the breed warrants it, boots if necessary (can make them more comfortable). I don't have a problem with people celebrating their dogs' birthdays or remembering them at Christmas. No the dog cannot understand the concepts of their birth day or Christmas, but they do understand presents, if that is something people do with their dogs. A treat or a toy, watching them open it is half the fun.
> 
> I think that if the things that you do to your dog blurs how you perceive the dog. You can call the dog your baby, but if you are constantly carrying it around in your arm like a baby, put a bonnet on it, wear a diaper on it regularly and without a physical problem that warrants it. When you blur the lines between whether this is a dog or a baby, that is a problem.
> 
> ...


So in a nutshell....when a person expects a dog to know the difference between right and wrong? I can see that as being an issue and I can agree with this


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Welllll my dogs know me as Mama. My boyfriend even says to them, where's Mama? Don't ask me how this got started, I don't know. I don't care. They don't know the significance of "mama" over any other name.


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## Mac's Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I think there is a growing awareness that animals are capable of far more than we thought - not just dogs - other animals as well, and that people who want to, can open their minds to that, and see where it goes.
> 
> Dogs can show empathy. It seems part of their very nature. We on the other hand, do not seem to always have this as an innate part of who we are - but perhaps it is not a bad idea to see what you can see from a dog's eye view.
> 
> ...


I have not read through all of the replies so I may be repeating what others have said but ...I love your post so much I'm posting on my facebook.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> And when you put human expectations on a dog's behavior and take it personally if the dog doesn't act the way you would expect a human to act. For example, let's say a little ankle biter comes up and bites your dog, your dog is 80 pounds and outweighs the dog by 70 pounds. But it wheels and bites the small dog. Scolding your dog for hurting the little dog or being horrified because your dog killed the little dog in the encounter, because he was so much bigger than the other dog and shouldn't have done that. That is humanizing the dog. Dogs do not have the same moral structure, the same tabboos, the same cultural values. And yes a dog will impregnate a sister, mother, daughter given the opportunity. Not realizing that, means you have seriously lost the destinction between human and dog. Expecting a dog to share with his brother whether his brother is a littermate, or a sibling by birth, or just lives in the same house. To some extent, expecting a dog that has gone to his new home at eight weeks of age to recognize his dam, sire, or siblings a couple of years later, understanding the kinship.


I actually see this as being a huge issue of 1) why people get dogs and want them to live in their homes, and 2) why they get rid of same dog.

The thing w/kids. "Dogs should know it's a helpless infant"; "my dog should know those are my new shoes", "Dogs should know (fill in the blank)". 
They don't! They are dogs!
And if one kills your cat, don't say "well this dog knows the cat is a beloved member of the family", because they don't, they are being dogs.

This is why I'm always so adamant, too, about not scolding a dog beyond an "AHH AHH!" if you catch it going potty in the house. Why not scold it? Because it has no moral values to say "oh, this is new carpet, I'd better not go here". It's just relieving itself, it's up to the owner to teach it acceptable places to go potty. 
Dogs just _are_. They are not _right,_ or _wrong._ They really can do nothing wrong, because they are purely instinctual and that's how they live.

As selzer said, it's up to us to teach them ways to be more fun and sanitary to live with, but even if they have a lapse, they are still just being dogs, and aren't doing _whatever it is they are doing_ to spite you!


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> I actually see this as being a huge issue of 1) why people get dogs and want them to live in their homes, and 2) why they get rid of same dog.
> 
> The thing w/kids. "Dogs should know it's a helpless infant"; "my dog should know those are my new shoes", "Dogs should know (fill in the blank)".
> They don't! They are dogs!
> ...


Best post describing the dangers of humanizing a dog so far! It isn't about putting stupid little hats on a dog, or putting it in your dumb purse. 

It is about these things.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

chelle said:


> Best post describing the dangers of humanizing a dog so far! It isn't about putting stupid little hats on a dog, or putting it in your dumb purse.
> 
> It is about these things.


It's all of it. Not just one ore the other. Most people that put those dogs into a purse do exactly what was described by msvette.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> It's all of it. Not just one ore the other. Most people that put those dogs into a purse do exactly what was described by msvette.


I don't know.. I do stupid crap like birthday hats, but sure don't want them in a purse. They'd break my back.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Oh yeah I'd stick a hat on a dog, or costume. 
But I still treat them and train them like they are dogs. I had our puppy chew on a very expensive shoe but it was lying alongside his toys. How the heck would he know it wasn't a toy?

It's really a learning process, and we have the benefit of living with and interacting with, and subsequently, teaching us, in our home and property, over 150 different dogs per year.



> I do stupid crap like birthday hats, but sure don't want them in a purse. They'd break my back.


Silly girl. The purse goes on _them_


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

chelle said:


> Welllll my dogs know me as Mama. My boyfriend even says to them, where's Mama? Don't ask me how this got started, I don't know. I don't care. They don't know the significance of "mama" over any other name.


:crazy: The people in my house refer to me as mommy...like for instance if we are playing a game of hide and seek, my son will ask the dogs"Where's mommy?, they always find me, with him I don't say where is your brother...they know his name


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

TrickyShepherd said:


> It's an innocent thing to do and for the most part, the majority of people don't do it for a fashion trend, maternal problems, or confusion of any sort. You have something you care for day in and day out that has a heart, personality, and a mind of their own.... it's naturally something you are nurturing.. like a mother. It's just a natural instinct for people.. especially woman. That has nothing to do with people getting them confused with real human children. I certainly do not, and most of the people I know that do the same do not either.


I certainly don't get them confused with real human children. I don't have any kids of the human variety, so this is as close to "Mom" as I'm ever going to get. I don't understand what is so offensive, condescending or vomit-worthy about it--when we refer to ourselves as "Mom" or "Dad", it's always rather tongue-in-cheek and has nothing to do with an indentiy crisis, empty nest syndrome, displacement disorder, or any other psychological hangup.

But then, I do have purple hair, and I've been known to put my cat in a baby t-shirt or onesie, sheerly for the entertainment of watching a cat try to walk when wearing a t-shirt. Slink, flop, roll... slink, flop, roll...  now before you go calling animal control on me for abusing my cats, may I add that the cat is purring furiously the entire time, rubbing his head on the floor, kneading the air... I guess it's kind of like wearing a Thundershirt, the pressure of it is pleasant and calming to the kitty. In fact, this is how I knew the Thundershirt/Anxiety Wrap idea was on to something.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

To quote sunflower: "A dog in a stroller?" 

I seriously considered getting a stroller for the late Barker the Elder. She would have loved getting out an about when her back & legs no longer allowed much ambulation. If you don't want to do that for your old dog, don't do it but why put down what I want to do for my elderly dog?

Small dogs have been dressed up for years - poodles have sported bows and nail polish for a long long time. 

When I was growing up in small town USA, few dogs were confined, many were not neutered. Dogs breeding on the street was not all that rare but always somewhat embarrassing to explain to curious younger kids. Fortunately, now in many small towns the dogs may still roam but many more are neutered.


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## KentuckyGSDLover (Nov 17, 2011)

Urbanization, too much Disney TV, too out of touch with nature and the world except as something people "visit," and people holed up in their own little worlds?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Nobody was referring to elderly dogs or disabled dogs regarding the stroller.

They were referring to people who took their perfectly capable dogs for walks in a stroller as if they were a 2 month old baby that couldn't walk.


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## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

Freestep said:


> I certainly don't get them confused with real human children.


My mom does. She's always calling me 'Max', her german shepherd's name. And she often calls Max, 'Greg'. LOL!


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

middleofnowhere said:


> To quote sunflower: "A dog in a stroller?"
> 
> I seriously considered getting a stroller for the late Barker the Elder. She would have loved getting out an about when her back & legs no longer allowed much ambulation. If you don't want to do that for your old dog, don't do it but why put down what I want to do for my elderly dog?
> .


we aren't talking about a stroller to help get an immobile dog out for socialization and fun. It's the thought BEHIND the stroller. The ones we have a problem with are the "Her widdle feets will get tired if she walks." They don't think of it as an animal but a tiny human infant who just has a bit more body hair than average. They don't realize that a dog needs different things than a human child - different discipline, different expectations, different foods, etc. 

They are confused by the behaviors of a dog because the "other children" don't act that way. Take the doggie weddings. There are people who have these weddings because they want to breed their dogs but don't want them to "sin" So they have a wedding for the dogs and spend thousands of $ to make the dogs happy. They would be mortified if one of the dogs was to "have an affair" and they can't grasp the concept that dogs don't have any sense or obligation of monogamy.


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## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

HA!!! My Mastiff would LOVE me to push him around in a stroller!!! :rofl:


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

middleofnowhere said:


> I seriously considered getting a stroller for the late Barker the Elder. She would have loved getting out an about when her back & legs no longer allowed much ambulation. If you don't want to do that for your old dog, don't do it but why put down what I want to do for my elderly dog?


That's totally different. If the dog is elderly, injured, or cannot walk for whatever reason, the stroller is a good thing. 

But some people use them for their perfectly healthy little toy dogs, because they don't want the dog's feet to get dirty, or they think it can't walk that far, or whatever.

I actually had a client with a young Pomeranian that "couldn't" walk. Actually she could walk just fine, but didn't like to walk on a leash. Rather than leash train the dog, they bought a little doggie purse and carried her around that way.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

GregK said:


> My mom does. She's always calling me 'Max', her german shepherd's name. And she often calls Max, 'Greg'. LOL!


Ha Ha...too funny, when we were younger all of us kids had names that began with L's and a dog named Lucky. On numerous occasions my mom would go through the whole list including the dog when she was screaming for us


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## Jacobs-mommy (Jun 8, 2012)

GregK said:


> My mom does. She's always calling me 'Max', her german shepherd's name. And she often calls Max, 'Greg'. LOL!


My whole family has been guilty of calling people the wrong names for years. I guess it comes with age because i have already mistakenly called my son jacob and his name is jack lol. Theyboth cause messes so much its hard to pick who to yell at lol


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## Jo_in_TX (Feb 14, 2012)

Which animals are members of our family and which aren't. 

Well, for me, the animals that evacuate with us during a hurricane are members of my family. :wub:

That means that the fish and the hamsters aren't.


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

Freestep said:


> I certainly don't get them confused with real human children. I don't have any kids of the human variety, so this is as close to "Mom" as I'm ever going to get. I don't understand what is so offensive, condescending or vomit-worthy about it--when we refer to ourselves as "Mom" or "Dad", it's always rather tongue-in-cheek and has nothing to do with an indentiy crisis, empty nest syndrome, displacement disorder, or any other psychological hangup.
> 
> But then, I do have purple hair, and I've been known to put my cat in a baby t-shirt or onesie, sheerly for the entertainment of watching a cat try to walk when wearing a t-shirt. Slink, flop, roll... slink, flop, roll...  now before you go calling animal control on me for abusing my cats, may I add that the cat is purring furiously the entire time, rubbing his head on the floor, kneading the air... I guess it's kind of like wearing a Thundershirt, the pressure of it is pleasant and calming to the kitty. In fact, this is how I knew the Thundershirt/Anxiety Wrap idea was on to something.


Exactly. I'm the same way. We don't have kids, and within this year I've come to realize..... I've now reached the point that I will never have kids. I knew this would happen... just thought I would have a little more time.. like, until 27-30. So, my dogs are the only sort of 'kids' we will have . There's no confusion, and like you said... it's not even really serious when I say it. It's completely innocent, and has nothing to do with any mental issues on both human or canine sides. We're just fine here! 

Btw... the cat thing is hilarious. The thunder shirts do have something to them, that's for sure! When we had cats, I used to wrap them in tight rags when they had to go to the vet..... kept them calm enough for shots and whatever else they had to do.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Jo_in_TX said:


> Which animals are members of our family and which aren't.
> 
> Well, for me, the animals that evacuate with us during a hurricane are members of my family. :wub:
> 
> That means that the fish and the hamsters aren't.


Its a good thing that I'm not in an area that has hurricanes because I can see myself trying to save the fish


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I saw this on facebook and I immediately thought of this thread!


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## blehmannwa (Jan 11, 2011)

Here's my thing. I love my dogs a lot and have deep connections to them but they are not people. Felony was my best friend but she was a best friend who ate cat poop. I try not to judge how other people raise and keep their dogs--inside/outside, coats or not because I think that there are a lot of different ways in which to relate to your dog. Dogs adapt, it's what they do.

Felony wore sweaters in the last year of her life. A friend knitted them and they covered her scars. She understood that wearing her silly sweaters gave us pleasure and she enjoyed the attention. Havoc has started spending the early a.m. outside alone in the garden. I would prefer him to be inside but he's not barking, just enjoying the birds and watching for squirrels. I wouldn't have even known about this but a cold had me sleeping downstairs last week. I don't think that dogs should be outside unsupervised but Havoc disagrees with me.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Dainerra said:


> I saw this on facebook and I immediately thought of this thread!


LOL I saw that on FB and "liked" it!


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Back to the stroller thing -- my point was How the heck do we know the circumstances for Joe Schmoe? and why is it our place to judge how others treat their pets (as long as they are not abused or neglected)? some of us devote a day a week at a dog sport club. We work our dogs maybe 1/2 hour out of every 3 hours we're there. A lot of folks wouldn't think that was a very good judgement call. I've even costumed a dog or two for holiday photos & halloween. It amused me and they were good sports about it. (sort of.) 
Then, too, if your dog is used to a stroller on occassion, should they ever need one it is going to be far easier to get them going in it. Same thing with ramps. And I'm still looking for a shoulder bag that would hold a GSD.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Maybe because the call for new, ridiculous laws is getting louder and louder, born out of all that humanizing them to a point where they can't be dogs anymore. 

Soon we will have no rights anymore. Soon they have the same rights as we have and we are called guardians and no longer owners. 

It's a slippery slope and a thin line... that is why humanizing animals is so darn dangerous...


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## narako9 (Jun 29, 2012)

I haven't read anything besides the first post but I just have to say that I agree with any that Mrs.K says.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

narako9 said:


> I haven't read anything besides the first post but I just have to say that I agree with any that Mrs.K says.


Dang. How's that for an endorsement Mrs,K.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> Maybe because the call for new, ridiculous laws is getting louder and louder, born out of all that humanizing them to a point where they can't be dogs anymore.
> 
> Soon we will have no rights anymore. Soon they have the same rights as we have and we are called guardians and no longer owners.
> 
> It's a slippery slope and a thin line... that is why humanizing animals is so darn dangerous...


That's also a double edged sword. Without government interference, unfortunately, we'd be allowing the byb's, the worst of owners, the abusers -- to thrive. Don't get me wrong -- I really do NOT like any more government interference in any facet of life than absolutely necessary, but there are just too many idiots out there that would thrive without at least some.

I really don't believe that those of us who take proper care of our dogs ever have to deal with AC, ever have to deal with such interference at all.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Jack's Dad said:


> Dang. How's that for an endorsement Mrs,K.


Dang, woman, you walk on water!!!! :laugh:


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Bow! Infidels!!! 


:rofl::rofl::rofl:


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