# Seen on a Forum - Your Opinion?



## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

Another forum I belong to is not dog related, but has an off-topic discussion area where recently someone started a thread on hobbies. Someone there said that they are currently training their Golden Retriever to retrieve, and then posted the following -



> I already trained him to be a certified service dog (not for me, but in general) at 6 months old, so he has all-access to everywhere!


Which brings up the following questions -

(1) How can a dog be a "certified" service dog at 6 months?
(2) How can a dog be a service dog "in general" and not for a person?
(3) How does that equate to public access?

Sounds to me like someone who puts a vest on their dog and takes it everywhere they feel like going. 

The person in question is (supposedly) a professional trainer. You'd think that professionals would know better than to bend or break the law whenever it suits them. 

They are in FL - not sure what FL's laws are about Service Dogs.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Sounds to me like someone if full of hot air . . . and shouldn't a "certified" service dog already know how to retrieve?


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> shouldn't a "certified" service dog already know how to retrieve?


That's a good question. I'm going to post what she actually said about her dog here, just so I don't misinterpret or misunderstand anything that was said by trying to rephrase it. Below are the two posts she made relevant to her dog / training -



> well, I train dogs. service dogs, police dogs, drug dogs, pet dogs, personal protection dogs, search and rescue dogs...





> He is my first golden, I always had German Shepherds before and they are really good dogs, but I really love my Golden! Plus, he looks real good in the back seat of the Jeep with his ears flapping in the wind! Haha! He goes everywhere with me! I already trained him to be a certified service dog (not for me, but in general) at 6 months old, so he has all-access to everywhere! So, we put on his vest in the morning, jump in the Jeep, and are gone all day! He's my buddy!


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

NOT an expert...but to my understanding it's not the Service dog that has the access rights...It's the Person with the Disability that has the right to use the tool (the dog) that aides them. A dog that is not with a disabled person is not a service dog, and a SDiT is not accorded the same rights necessarily as a full Service dog.



> The American's with Disabilities Act does not apply to service dogs in training. Some states have laws which permit trainers to take service-dogs-in-training to the same places fully trained service dogs can go. However, most states require service-dogs-in-training to be accompanied by a trainer from a recognized program for training service dogs and that they carry credentials which they show on request.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

I try not to post strong dog opinions on that particular forum as I've received a warning in that regard previously (that was regarding someone else with a Golden that they shaved down to the bare skin in summer "for comfort" and were "planning to breed because he's such a great dog"), so I know dog opinions are not terribly welcome over there.

I did post the following in re: the quote in my first post here. I wonder if she will respond to it.



> That's pretty interesting. If you don't mind my asking, how do you work the "all access" angle in your state if you are not actually disabled?
> 
> AFAIK, under the ADA, Service Dogs have public access rights only if they are accompanied by their disabled handler or a qualified, professional trainer. Some states also grant SDITs full access rights, but many don't. (I think NY where I live doesn't, but am not 100% certain.)


Some states allow access if the dog is with its trainer (even without the disabled handler) if the person can prove in some way that they are, actually, a trainer. I don't know whether her states fall into that category. Her locations are listed as Florida and Pennsylvania, Florida being her primary from what I understand.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

I have a friend, a former LEO, who was doing the same thing. She was training her puppy to do service dog stuff, then puts the orange harness on the dog and takes him everywhere as a service dog in training. She doesn't do it anymore, just when it was a puppy. 

I've read of people who put a vest on their dog so the dog can fly in the cabin with them, also.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> well, I train dogs. service dogs, police dogs, drug dogs, pet dogs, personal protection dogs, search and rescue dogs...


Really? I would really like to see that in person. One can write a lot...


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

Here in FL SDITs are allowed in no pets locations if they are actually being trained at that time and not just being taken from place to place.

There is no "general" SD either by Federal or any State laws. 



> shouldn't a "certified" service dog already know how to retrieve?


Not all SDs are certified. Certification is not legally required as there are no national certification requirements. Training facilities can place a certification on their own dogs which means that this particular dog, trained by this facility, passed their in-house requirements. 

As to retrieving, not all SDs have a need to retrieve items and so not all are trained to do so. If a hard of hearing person taught their dog to retrieve then that is not a required trained task for that particular disability. A dog who alerts to an oncoming seizure and then responds in some trained way does not always need to learn to retrieve. On the other hand, the vast majority of SDs are taught to retrieve but I did want to clarify this point that retrieving is not a requirement. 




> I have a friend, a former LEO, who was doing the same thing.


Well I know individual LEOs who speed or drive while over the legal limit of alcohol. All against the law also.



> I've read of people who put a vest on their dog so the dog can fly in the cabin with them, also.


Yes, there are dishonest people with no regard for the law in all walks of life. 

And as has been stated neither the SD nor the SDIT have access rights. The owner/handler or trainer are the ones who have access rights - the former as a disabled person and the latter as one training the dog for a disabled person. And it is correct, not all states give access rights with a SDIT to trainers or a SD that is undergoing refresher or advanced work with a trainer.

And as to the person under discussion being here in FL, well to put in nicely there are a lot of scam artists located here - both indidviduals and training centers.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

> He is my first golden, I always had German Shepherds before and they are really good dogs, but I really love my Golden! Plus, he looks real good in the back seat of the Jeep with his ears flapping in the wind! Haha! He goes everywhere with me! I already trained him to be a * certified service dog (not for me, but in general)* at 6 months old, so he has all-access to everywhere! So, we put on his vest in the morning, jump in the Jeep, and are gone all day! He's my buddy!


Wow. What a certified 

Everything has already been covered, so I'll just add that people like this make me sick. They ruin it for those the genuinely need service animals. One day we may not have the same freedoms and protection under the law regarding service animals due to these idiots! In Canada for example, only service dogs from approved SD training institutions are allowed. And they are required to carry proof of certification at all times.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Some people are just nim-wits. I don't understand people who 'wanna be', but not enough to actually work for it....so they pretend. 

I wonder if I pretend I'm thin long enough people will actually think I am.....


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Castlemaid said:


> Sounds to me like someone if full of hot air . . . and shouldn't a "certified" service dog already know how to retrieve?


A lot of service dogs are trained NOT to retrieve actually. Unless the person needs the dog to retrieve as a service dog task there is no reason to train for it and in fact it can be detrimental. My sister's husband has a Labrador guide dog and the program he got the dog from told him not to have the dog retrieve (don't throw toys for him) and he is also not allowed to have tennis balls. 

As far as the dog having access being a service dog "in general"-- the dog has no more rights than any pet dog to access unless they are accompanied by a person who is legally considered disabled and the dog is trained to assist that person. In some states dogs who are in training are allowed in public when being trained if accompanied by the trainer but it depends on the state, and sometimes they have more specific laws in that case (such as the service dog in training must be with a service dog program, or must have specific ID, etc...) In general the ADA trumps local laws but since the ADA does not over service dogs in training, the local law must be followed.

A "service dog in general" sounds to me more like a therapy dog than anything else, and therapy dogs have no access rights.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> A "service dog in general" sounds to me more like a therapy dog than anything else, and therapy dogs have no access rights.


And AFAIK no Therapy Dog organization certifies dogs at 6 MONTHS OLD.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

No service dog organization would either! It usually takes 2 years.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> No service dog organization would either! It usually takes 2 years.


Well, yes - I think it's pretty obvious this PUPPY is not a "certified" anything.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> My sister's husband has a Labrador guide dog and the program he got the dog from told him not to have the dog retrieve (don't throw toys for him) and he is also not allowed to have tennis balls.


Wow... what a sad life for a dog if he can't even play...


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

> Wow... what a sad life for a dog if he can't even play...


No one said they can't play -- just not chase toys. Dog can still run, swim, spend large amounts of time with his owner, is groomed often, best of medical care, proper amounts of good food.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

ILGHAUS said:


> No one said they can't play -- just not chase toys. Dog can still run, swim, spend large amounts of time with his owner, is groomed often, best of medical care, proper amounts of good food.


Still, there is nothing better than playing fetch with a dog. It's just not the same to have a dog and not being able to play fetch. 

I don't understand why he can't play fetch. Is it because of the drive? What is so bad about playing fetch? The drive is the only thing that would explain it but I know guide dogs that play fetch all the time once they are off the leash so i really don't get it.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

Some dogs don't even like playing fetch- just because you think its the best doesn't mean every dog agrees with you.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

Also bear in mind that different organizations have different rules and requirements. While this particular school may not allow the dog to play fetch, others may have no problem with it at all. It's the same in the Therapy Dog world, too - Delta Society won't allow any dogs that do bite work (like in Schutzhund) or dogs that are raw fed, while other organizations don't have any problem with it.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Lin said:


> Some dogs don't even like playing fetch- just because you think its the best doesn't mean every dog agrees with you.


I know that much


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

Mrs.K said:


> Still, there is nothing better than playing fetch with a dog.


My service dogs play PLENTY of games. To them there's nothing better than playing hide and seek, or find it, or soccer, tug, or working on agility equipment (depends on the dog. Each has had his own preference). 

If you've never played soccer with a dog that you've trained how to dribble a ball up and down a field, where you and he pass the ball back and forth, and occasionally battle it out to see who will get the ball (but he always gives it up upon request), then maybe you should try it. 

Fetch, honestly, is pretty darn boring. 

Chris, just to chime in on your initial question, yeah, the person is full of it. I'm training my second SD right now. There's no way that a 6 month old pup has the maturity to be reliable enough to perform tasks consistently... and good gosh, at that age, I'm worried what sort of tasks he's being asked to do that are too stressful for such a young body. A pup will be eager and try, but that doesn't mean we should ask him to do it. 

Public access alone is hard physical work for a youngster. Being out all day on hard concrete floors (which is what most commercial flooring is: even carpeted floors are just thin carpet lain on concrete) is really hard on a little body. When I take my little guys out, I'm very careful not to take them out for any extended periods of time at all, and they get lots of breaks. Little minds get overloaded quickly. 

And I only take them to businesses that have previously agreed to let me take a service dog *candidate* puppy into their businesses. 

Not only am I not impressed by this person, I'm really unimpressed. If they're doing what they say they are, they're quite possibly doing damage.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> Fetch, honestly, is pretty darn boring.


Not if you have a dog that just learned how to play and watch how goofy he can be running after the ball. 

However, what I don't understand... a service dog can play tug o'war (if that is what you mean with tug) but he can't play fetch?

I am just trying to understand. Again, this is not against you or anyone else, I am just trying to understand why they can't play fetch but play tug ' war for example. That doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever. 

And by the way, you can get pretty creative with fetch too and turn it into a soccer game


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

> a service dog can play tug o'war (if that is what you mean with tug) but he can't play fetch?


No one is saying *all* service dogs can't play fetch - only some are not encouraged to chase balls etc. because of the type of duties they are being trained for.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

For me, and I don't speak for any agencies, it's all about interaction and controlling drive. Tug is a great way to teach my dog impulse control. We play tug for 30 seconds; I tell him Give (which he has been trained to do), then Sit! in a rapid fire way. He sits FAST because his reward is that he'll be released to tug again. We tug for a while, then I ask him Give/Down! and he lies down as fast as he possibly can. And we repeat this over and over.

A tug can be an amazingly strong reinforcer, far better than any treat. What my pup learns is that he can play, but he has to give up the toy when I request (impulse control) and do what I ask; then he gets what he wants. It's the Premack Principle at work. 

A lot of traditional trainers tell pet owners that playing tug with a dog is a terrible idea. They're wrong. It has to be controlled. There has to be a formal start and a formal end. And it has to be give and take. Most dogs realize that tug doesn't work unless the other party is also tugging; otherwise, it's just a limp toy. It's a great way to form a team dynamic -- if you do it right. My service dog and I are a team. Literally, that's what they call us in the industry vernacular -- a service dog team. So I'm always looking for new and fascinating ways to make myself an interesting teammate to him. Tug is an easy one. 

The reason that *I* don't do fetch hardly at all (there are a few exceptions, but not worth mentioning) is that winds up a dog, makes him toy-obsessed, and there's not a lot of interaction between us. From what I've gathered from talking to my friend who trains for an agency (that does mostly labs and goldens), they stay away from fetch because retrievers are well known to get completely ball obsessed 

How ball obsessed can some dogs get? In a therapy dog training class I took, they actually had to take time to train dogs NOT to go after the balls on the bottom of walkers (which a lot of folks like to do to make them quieter and non-skid). You can't have service dogs (or therapy dogs), go running off in pursuit of a rolling ball, a ball on the bottom of someone's walker, or a ball in a child's hands. 

The games I play with my dogs keep ME right next to my dogs. So they don't get develop the idea of "Ball! I can get it!" I work to desensitize them to bouncing, rolling balls, balls being tossed in the air, toys that are left at their eye level, etc. 

It's hard to do that and then go outside and toss the ball across the yard and tell him "Go get it, Boy!" 

With soccer, I'm right there and we're playing interactively. Or my husband and I are kicking the balls back and forth to him. We're not just tossing them and letting him chase them. There's a clear definition of "this is where the game begins and ends."

With the games we play, there are boundaries. This is where the game starts and stops, in time and in physical space. 

And, by mixing up the games, no single toy becomes the object of obsession. Many dogs LOVE Cuzes, or a certain stuffed toy, or tennis balls, to the point that the owner has to put the toy up and away. That's not healthy in a dog that has other work to do. My dog loves all of his toys more or less the same. The ones he likes most are the ones that my husband or I are holding at the moment. 

Service dogs have fascinating colorful lives. They work hard. They dream exciting dreams (based on the amount of muscle movement and eerping noises they make). Play is VERY important. It relieves stress, helps them unwind, stretches physical muscles and burns a little extra energy. My dog goes for hikes where he can run, romp, sniff, climb, etc. He has a few appropriate friends that he plays with in a secure supervised location. He gets lots of time to just "be a dog." 

Object-based play is just a small part of my service dog's life. 

So fetch? Nah, even when a well meaning friend tosses a ball, my dog will chase it a couple times. But then, he's bored.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> The reason that *I* don't do fetch hardly at all (there are a few exceptions, but not worth mentioning) is that winds up a dog, makes him toy-obsessed, and there's not a lot of interaction between us. From what I've gathered from talking to my friend who trains for an agency (that does mostly labs and goldens), they stay away from fetch because retrievers are well known to get completely ball obsessed
> 
> How ball obsessed can some dogs get? In a therapy dog training class I took, they actually had to take time to train dogs NOT to go after the balls on the bottom of walkers (which a lot of folks like to do to make them quieter and non-skid). You can't have service dogs (or therapy dogs), go running off in pursuit of a rolling ball, a ball on the bottom of someone's walker, or a ball in a child's hands.
> 
> ...


That makes much more sense to me. Thank you for going more into detail.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Mrs.K said:


> Wow... what a sad life for a dog if he can't even play...


Oh he can play plenty. He has a bunch of toys at home that he plays with, he's just not allowed to have tennis balls in particular or do fetching.
As for why, you'd have to ask the guide dog organization I guess. 
If I had to guess it is to avoid the dog being distracted by tennis balls/things throw which he may see when out working. Also the organization mostly works with Labs and Goldens which are more likely to get focused on retrieving (his guide dog is a lab.)
I know when I was doing animal assisted therapy the organization I was with had a no tennis balls rule because some patients used walkers, which sometimes have tennis balls attached to the bottoms and they did not want the dogs trying to go for those.


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