# My GSD bit someone....



## Braddock

Hi there, 

I have a 2 year old GSD, who has been a fairly good for our family, save for his barking, but that is not the end of the world. He is great around my 1 year old baby, and he has never shown aggression toward me or anyone in my family. He does bark at strangers who walk by the front of our home, which is not always a bad thing. He seems to recognize people who he has seen before, and has a good temperment, or at least I though. 

Today, he was in our garage, and I was leaving to go to work. I told him to stay. He did, but as I was closing the garage door, he bolted past me, and I tried to keep him in with my foot, but he knocked me over (we live in a compound type area, where there can be others walking around, with kids, etc). Before I could get up, I saw that he had bit our neighbour on the top of the thigh, and looked to be a quick nip type of thing, as opposed to a grab and hold. I yelled at him, and he took off running, knocking a 1 year old boy over in the process. I think this was an accident, and the boy just happened to be in the way, and my dog didn't see him in time. 

I feel awful, and I really don't know what to do with my dog. I live in a community far away from obedience, etc. The neighbour got a couple stitches as a result, it looks like one of his canines sunk into her leg. I asked their wishes, and they just said it was up to me, as they could not live with making a decision like that. They are now fearful of the dog, rightfully so. 

He is a good to me, but I have just lost trust in him. I don't know how to work on this or correct it. If I do keep him, a muzzle with definately be in order while we are out around others. 

Any help or suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks.


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## Zeeva

Don't worry about what others think. In the end it is YOUR decision. If your dog is good with you and your family then IMO you should keep it. Try not to let him get away from you again. 

Also work on his recall in real world situations. I hope I don't get bashed for this but I use a stim collar (shock collar on a very very VERY low setting). It trained my dogs recall really really quickly and now I don't even have to use it regardless of wether there is a bunny in the front yard that they want to chase or a person they want to bark at. 

Don't feel bad. Your neighbors are good people for letting you decide what you want to do with your dog. You are also a good person for wanting to take their wishes into consideration. 

Keep us posted on how your pup is doing...I wish you two all the best.


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## chelle

Zeeva said:


> Don't worry about what others think. In the end it is YOUR decision. If your dog is good with you and your family then IMO you should keep it. Try not to let him get away from you again.
> 
> Also work on his recall in real world situations. I hope I don't get bashed for this but I use a stim collar (shock collar on a very very VERY low setting). It trained my dogs recall really really quickly and now I don't even have to use it regardless of wether there is a bunny in the front yard that they want to chase or a person they want to bark at.
> 
> Don't feel bad. Your neighbors are good people for letting you decide what you want to do with your dog. You are also a good person for wanting to take their wishes into consideration.
> 
> Keep us posted on how your pup is doing...I wish you two all the best.


Zeeva, no offense intended.. but you can't be serious? The dog bit someone to the extent that it required *stitches*?! In many places, this is one instance away from the dog being pts!

I think the neighbor is being incredibly understanding here!

And no offense, OP, but you should feel at least a little bad -- enough to absolutely ENSURE it never occurs again. And what is this -- "taking their wishes into consideration?' Come on! Their wishes are clearly to not be bitten by this dog!

Containment and management are surely KEY in this situation. Never allow your dog to do this again, or you're probably going to be looking at a situation that is beyond your control, when authorities step in.


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## Verivus

Do you have any idea what may have triggered the dog? Cleared of any possible health issues? Has the dog ever attempted to bite or be aggressive to other people? I wouldn't be so quick to say PTS, we don't have enough information, but the dog definitely needs to be properly controlled/contained.


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## CeCe

Your dog needs training. Even if you have to drive an hour away it is essential that he get trained. If you post your location some members may be able to recommend someone. You may also want to neuter him if he is intact. You are very lucky that animal control wasn't called on him. Good luck.


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## Elaine

This dog is a hazard. You have little to no training on him and his socialization is so poor that he's vicious. Muzzling him is just a stop gap measure and won't keep him from doing this again the next time he gets loose. 

Most communities will declare your dog dangerous and your home owners insurance will go through the roof after a bite like this and it's terribly unfair to your neighbors to have to live in fear of your dog. Either go to training or bring someone in to help you with the training before your dog does this again.


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## Lucy Dog

The dog bit someone. That's strike one.

Now you know that this dog will bite... you will now hopefully take every precaution humanly possible to make sure this never happens again. This dog loses all off leash privileges when not fenced in. Don't even give him the slightest opportunity to do this again. If that means wearing a muzzle and never being off leash again, so be it.

It is 100% you responsibility to make sure this never happens again. If it does, that's both strike 2 and 3, and he's out. You put the dog down.

Also, I hope you're paying all medical bills as well as somehow going a little extra to show how sorry you are to the innocent person who was bit at your expense.


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## GSDkid

OP, I know dog's can surprise you at times. When you think you know them well, you really don't. Keep in mind that if your neighbor had reported it, you'd have many troubles.

My advice is PREVENTION! If you can't trust him anymore, keep him on a leash where ever he goes. If it was my dog and after this incident, I would think twice before letting him near my 1 year old child. My dog escaped maybe half a dozen times (I know, I shouldn't have let it happen more than twice) and fortunately, she is not aggressive. More like she wants to play with everything or everyone but if something were to happen, I am liable and could face a law suit.

Again, don't ever give him that opportunity anymore. Keep him on a leash. He has to earn his freedom. The only time my girl isn't on a leash is when we're inside or when we're at my uncle's 30 acre land.


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## Braddock

Thanks Zeeva for the advice. 

I figure perhaps running him a bit more, and really working on the obedience end of things the best I can perhaps will help. I will have a get a muzzle for the next while if he is out and about due to this event. I just can't bring myself to put him down. He is my buddy, and he has been a good friend to me and my family. I owe it to him to help him with this behaviour and not just put him down on the spot. Had this been a child, or resulting in a more serious injury, my decision would have been different. I am not making excuses for him, but I can understand why he did what he did to some extent. Had this been bad guy waiting outside for me, I would have praised him. I can see his thought process somewhat (if that makes sense). 

Are there any specific muzzles you would suggest that are comfortable for him to wear, and work well?


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## GsdLoverr729

If you are walking him with it on, I suggest a cage muzzle of some sort  They allow the dog to pant but are like a cage around the mouth to prevent biting.


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## Elaine

Braddock said:


> I am not making excuses for him, but I can understand why he did what he did to some extent. Had this been bad guy waiting outside for me, I would have praised him. I can see his thought process somewhat (if that makes sense).


No, that doesn't make sense. People have the right to walk by your house without fear of your dog biting them for no reason. Your dog shouldn't be aggressive unless there is a obvious imminent threat to him or you and this doesn't even remotely qualify.


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## Lucy Dog

But he wasn't a bad guy... that's the thing... HUGE difference. Do not compare the two because biting someone attacking you and biting a neighbor getting the mail with his kid are two very different things. Two completely different mindsets. 

Try not to take offense to what I'm saying, just trying to be honest with you, but it sounds exactly like you're making excuses for him. If it was a child or a more serious injury, you'd be speaking differently? I've been bit in the leg by a large dog before... big canine through the skin like this one and it hurts bad then and it hurts for a while after the bite. It is a serious injury. You're lucky you're not being sued for this.

Now I'm not saying to put the dog down, but please don't be in denial about what really happened.


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## GSDkid

Braddock said:


> Had this been bad guy waiting outside for me, I would have praised him.


Are you living in a area where that is likely to happen? From your description, it doesn't really sound like it.


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## Braddock

I live in Canada (Northern), so we don't medical insurance issues like people in the US. 

Believe me I have thought about putting the dog down, and I am aware of my own personal liability. Luckily, my neighbour is understanding, whom I work with. I HAVE had 'bad people' on my property before, and in one situation where my dog was not able to protect me from a physical altercation as he was in his fence, and I was in the driveway with a violent person wanting to harm me. I work in law enforcement and these sort of things do happen. This does not excuse his behaviour with my neighbour, but he is protective over me. 

I am NOT making excuses for him. I am NOT in denial. I realize that this is serious, and I am seeking input for solutions to this issues, besides putting him down. I want to solve the problem and not just get rid of him, as I don't believe that is fair to him, and I believe that is perhaps a lazy owners recourse. I am very torn as to what to do with him. 

Believe me, I lost all trust I once had with him, and my family. He has lost his privileges etc, and will have to earn them back. He will be on a leash full time when he is not in his locked fenced back yard. I plan on telling the neighbour what I am doing to 'right' the situation as it improves, to show that I am being a responsible dog owner. 

The nearest community with training businesses is four hours drive one way, so that isn't really feasible at this point. 

I would welcome any forms of advice to deal with this issue. The more constructive the better. I just want to solve this through any means and improve his behaviour. 

I didn't post this asking for people to declare my dog as "vicious" and having "so poor" socialization. I would go as far as to say that would be irresponsible given that you have never met him. I wouldn't make such a judgement on your dog, so don't assume the same with mine.


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## GSDkid

I didn't mean to sound offensive. I apologize if I did. Add your location onto your profile so people can recommend you some trainers. You said you're too far from a training facility but I think a trainer would be the best bet. They'll help your dog determine what's a threat and not as well as the recall. Or maybe some trainers can go to your location.


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## doggiedad

1>>>> he knocked a child over. oh wait, he didn't see the child.

2>>>> this is definitely an excuse. the person he bit wasn't
a bad guy. lets say it was a bad guy. your dog was going to
detect that from the garage and then go an attack (bite).

i say muzzle him when you're out with him. put the dog in another part of the house when leaving the house. after you exit the garage go in the
house and let the dog loose or crate him. are youl eaving the dog
in the garage?



Braddock said:


> Thanks Zeeva for the advice.
> 
> I figure perhaps running him a bit more, and really working on the obedience end of things the best I can perhaps will help. I will have a get a muzzle for the next while if he is out and about due to this event. I just can't bring myself to put him down. He is my buddy, and he has been a good friend to me and my family. I owe it to him to help him with this behaviour and not just put him down on the spot.
> 
> 1>>>> Had this been a child, or resulting in a more serious injury, my decision would have been different.
> 
> 2>>>> I am not making excuses for him, but I can understand why he did what he did to some extent. Had this been bad guy waiting outside for me, I would have praised him. I can see his thought process somewhat (if that makes sense). <<<<
> 
> Are there any specific muzzles you would suggest that are comfortable for him to wear, and work well?


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## Braddock

doggiedad said:


> 1>>>> he knocked a child over. oh wait, he didn't see the child.
> 
> 2>>>> this is definitely an excuse. the person he bit wasn't
> a bad guy. lets say it was a bad guy. your dog was going to
> detect that from the garage and then go an attack (bite).
> 
> i say muzzle him when you're out with him. put the dog in another part of the house when leaving the house. after you exit the garage go in the
> house and let the dog loose or crate him. are youl eaving the dog
> in the garage?


 
What I was referring to was, if he had bitten a child. The dog would no longer be here if that were the case. I am sure you agree that knocking a child over while running away is not quite as severe as biting him or her, but all the same, still a concern. Or am I alone on that?

Secondly, I thought I was pretty clear with "I am NOT making excuses for him. Some people interpret that as somehow I am. I flat out said that this not acceptable, and I know that it is a SERIOUS problem. Hence why I came here for some input. Perhaps people would rather just criticize than offer insight. It was my error for allowing him to get under the garage door, and look what happened. I take responsibility for it. 

I agree however, that the muzzle is a good idea if he is out at all. Even on leash, which will be the norm from now on. 

I think that I have gathered all the help that I can from this online community....


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## debbiebrown

has this dog ever showed any indication of doing this before. maybe he did and you missed the signals. although he is becoming an adult now and obviously making his own choices, which aren't good ones. to just bolt and go after someone and bite is pretty serious. i commend you for trying to seek help, and you can get alot of good advice from some people here, but they can't really see the dog in person so its hard to judge.

if you decide to use the muzzel, please introduce it correctly with positive association, and do not just use that for a fix. sounds like you do need more leadership and Ob training and honestly, even if you have to travel to find a private trainer i would do that, because they can access the dog and work with you, it totally worth it to get the right training advice otherwise trying to do it on your own can be frustrating and may not be successful.
when your dog bolted and bit the guy, what did you do? most dogs that do this type of thing have a degree of fear aggression, a stable dog would not percieve that as a threat....its going to take alot of work and dedication and things don't happen over night. if you want to keep this dog and keep him out of trouble you need some good training help and the dog evaluated. unless you are a trainer yourself or have a good understanding of this issue i am not sure you can get to a better place doing this yourself. you can get books, videos and advice here, but there still needs to be an evaluation from a professional so you can choose the right approach.


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## llombardo

Lucy Dog said:


> Now you know that this dog will bite


Starting with this sentence...its not only this dog, it can be any dog and any/all precautions should be taken with any dog. I disagree with the muzzle part, I have seen dogs that had to have muzzles on and IMO it only makes them more vicious, the dog needs to be socialized and trained more and ALWAYS on a leash. I had one dog that bit someone and he never did again after that, it was provoked. As far as him knocking over the child, I don't see or believe that it was done on purpose. And last but not least, are you 100% sure that the neighbor he bit hasn't teased or done something to your dog in the past that would make your dog believe that they were a threat?


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## jetscarbie

Braddock said:


> I live in Canada (Northern), so we don't medical insurance issues like people in the US.
> 
> Believe me I have thought about putting the dog down, and I am aware of my own personal liability. Luckily, my neighbour is understanding, whom I work with. I HAVE had 'bad people' on my property before, and in one situation where my dog was not able to protect me from a physical altercation as he was in his fence, and I was in the driveway with a violent person wanting to harm me. I work in law enforcement and these sort of things do happen. This does not excuse his behaviour with my neighbour, but he is protective over me.
> 
> I am NOT making excuses for him. I am NOT in denial. I realize that this is serious, and I am seeking input for solutions to this issues, besides putting him down. I want to solve the problem and not just get rid of him, as I don't believe that is fair to him, and I believe that is perhaps a lazy owners recourse. I am very torn as to what to do with him.
> 
> Believe me, I lost all trust I once had with him, and my family. He has lost his privileges etc, and will have to earn them back. He will be on a leash full time when he is not in his locked fenced back yard. I plan on telling the neighbour what I am doing to 'right' the situation as it improves, to show that I am being a responsible dog owner.
> 
> The nearest community with training businesses is four hours drive one way, so that isn't really feasible at this point.
> 
> I would welcome any forms of advice to deal with this issue. The more constructive the better. I just want to solve this through any means and improve his behaviour.
> 
> I didn't post this asking for people to declare my dog as "vicious" and having "so poor" socialization. I would go as far as to say that would be irresponsible given that you have never met him. I wouldn't make such a judgement on your dog, so don't assume the same with mine.


 
Is there any way you can call around to some local vets and see if there is a trainer or behaviorist that they can recommend? That's usually a good place to start if your not sure who to use. Personally, I think you need somebody that is removed from the situation to give you an honest assessment of your dog. Not everybody advertises their services in the papers or with signs in their driveways. Some people advertise with word of mouth. That's why I think you should ask your local vets or other pet owners around there.

This is just me....but I never leave my dog outside unsupervised. Not even if there was a fence around my property. AND especially if he bit the neighbor. I wouldn't want to take the chance of him getting out.

I can't imagine being in your situation. It's a tough one. Good luck


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## debbiebrown

i have to agree i don't think the muzzel is the best choice until all other things are exhausted. as said above it can make things worse in that the dog feels frustrated and more fearful. all depends on the dog, thats why professional help is needed.

it doesn't matter if the neighbor provoked him or not, the dog should not be making his own decisions to bolt and bite someone. it would stink if the neighbor did do that, doesn't help a fearful unsure dog, but still he should not be bitting on impulse for whatever reason.


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## FG167

In my opinion, if a muzzle would make you, and your neighbors, feel safer, then I would use one. The more confident and in control you feel, the easier it will be for you to handle your dog and make good decisions. I do agree that further training would be best. In the meantime, this is my dog with a muzzle on (he had mouth surgery), and I was very pleased with it in terms of fit and comfort for my dog.



THIS is where I ordered it from, I was very pleased with their customer service.


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## debbiebrown

i think before the muzzel is used, the dog should be evaluated. i have seen to many times where people use it soley with no other training. then what happens, the one time the dog doesn't have the muzzel one whap! maybe it would make the OP more comfortable and the people around, but, its not always the best solution depending on the owner and the dog. there comes a time when you have to trust them through the training process, they can't wear a muzzel forever.


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## NancyJ

I have always heard that the severity of the bite is related to the severity of the issue. For a first bite to involve puncutures and stitches is very bad. This is not a nip and retreat bite.

If you love this dog and want to keep him, four hours is something you have to do - it may be they can evaluate, give you guidance and then set up a system where you video progress and discuss that way. 

Your dog bit a non threatening bystander. We can't help you fix that over the intenet. You can't fix it with a muzzle. There is always an risk of the dog getting loose again. You need to have a professional evaluate the dog an help you with action plan and decision. 

If you can't do that, put the dog down. If I were your neighbor, I would not have been so understanding because I would be concerned the next time was a child.


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## JakodaCD OA

I tend to agree with Nancy (and others)..for a first bite to require stitches and to just 'go for it', I would be "on" this dog asap. 

I know your taking this seriously as you should, In my house, if that happened, I would be absolutely mortified I would be bending over backwards to appease the neighbor, pay the hospital bills, and the dog would be on STRICT management control
as well as seeking out pro help..

I don't mean to sound harsh, but it's not the dogs fault, accidents happen, but when it involves something like this, serious management needs to come into play.

On leash at all times, supervised at all times, get him out and socialize him more with a muzzle on, and definately again, get some pro help..


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## debbiebrown

agree about the bite, it was not a nip it broke skin and required stitches. thats Not good...........

strict management is right! at this point the training and time with this dog will basically consume your life, if you keep the dog thats what needs to be done. if you do not think you have the time or will to put the time in i would consider some other possibilities. not easy to rehome a dog that has bitten, but the right person might be able to rehab.

all this might sound harsh, but alot of us have had dealings with fearful dogs or even a dog that has bitten or nipped. it sucks, but you have to take full responsibility and help keep the dog safe and seek professional help. i am sure you love your dog, so put your 100% effort into working with him. whatever it takes.


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## Twyla

Braddock said:


> Believe me I have thought about putting the dog down, and I am aware of my own personal liability. Luckily, my neighbour is understanding, whom I work with. I HAVE had 'bad people' on my property before, and in one situation where my dog was not able to protect me from a physical altercation as he was in his fence, and I was in the driveway with a violent person wanting to harm me. I work in law enforcement and these sort of things do happen. This does not excuse his behaviour with my neighbour, but he is protective over me.
> 
> I am NOT making excuses for him. I am NOT in denial. I realize that this is serious, and I am seeking input for solutions to this issues, besides putting him down. I want to solve the problem and not just get rid of him, as I don't believe that is fair to him, and I believe that is perhaps a lazy owners recourse. I am very torn as to what to do with him.
> 
> Believe me, I lost all trust I once had with him, and my family. He has lost his privileges etc, and will have to earn them back. He will be on a leash full time when he is not in his locked fenced back yard. I plan on telling the neighbour what I am doing to 'right' the situation as it improves, to show that I am being a responsible dog owner.
> 
> The nearest community with training businesses is four hours drive one way, so that isn't really feasible at this point.
> 
> I would welcome any forms of advice to deal with this issue. The more constructive the better. I just want to solve this through any means and improve his behaviour.
> 
> I didn't post this asking for people to declare my dog as "vicious" and having "so poor" socialization. I would go as far as to say that would be irresponsible given that you have never met him. I wouldn't make such a judgement on your dog, so don't assume the same with mine.


I am not sure how it is in Canada, but here if medical attention is required, as in the stitches your neighbor received, it's reported by medical staff, so that may be something you want to check into.

Your dog may be protective of you, but without protection training, he isn't reliable, you have no control and wouldn't be able to call him off.

The bite your neighbor received, as you described it, one canine puncture, sounds like a fear bite. The barking at people and his action with the bite does sound like fear aggression, obviously no way any can say for sure since we don't know him but just going by description. It's going to require training and management. 

Do not allow him to bark at people, if it is standing at the window and barking back him away from the window, if outside, bring him in. ALWAYS have a leash on him if outside. Backing your car out, he can't be in the garage. He can't be anywhere unless you have 100% control of him. Work on his obedience, get his recall, stay, leave it and watch me as reliable as possible, then still maintain his management.

Talk with your vet, ask who they refer owners to for training. Pet stores, check with them if they know anyone. For this, most of the time if they have trainers in store, they aren't equipped to handle aggression cases. It may be possible to contact a behaviorist for a phone consultation if they are a large distance away. If you see people walking large breeds, stop and ask them if they have or know of a trainer. Meanwhile, go through the Aggression forum here, there is a LOT of information, links to other websites for more info and books as well to read to get you started. 

FA dogs, like mine, maybe yours from what you describe, can be the ultimate sweet heart at home with it's pack and those it has accepted as part of it's extended pack. It's when they are exposed to those outside the pack is when they become a danger.


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## Caledon

There are many behaviorist that will develope a detailed plan for you and have weekly/daily communication via email to help you work with your dog. You have to be totally honest for this to work. 

I talked to one a few years ago but decided that I wanted hands on instruction/guidance. 

If you PM me I will try to locate his name for you.


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## debbiebrown

So true about the FA dogs. they can be loveable and great with their pack, but very unpredictable with those outside the pack. not sure how he is with other dogs, not that that is your biggest concern right now, but if he is fearful and acts on impulse with people he probably does it with strange dogs or any strange animal. alot of times the two go hand in hand.

for now i would get info and work on his focus on you and leash Obedience. teach down stays and really work on recall and leave its. the problem is he will always have to be watched because of that degree of fear of non threatening things, he will act on impulse unless you are on top of things.

i would also check for dog clubs in your area, i am sure you could find something if you ask the right people.

i have a fear agressive dog. he's been this way since a pup. i went through major frustration trying to find the right trainer, the normal trainers around were not equipt to deal with his issues. i tried doing alot on my own, he did go to OB classes, agility, etc and is still involved with Ob training and tracking, at 4 years old. he nipped a guy when he was 4 months old drew blood but no real puncture just a graze. after that i knew what i had, and i had to get serious help. after going through several trainers i found the SchH club and another local trainer who trains dogs for police and military.........to this day i train 2 times a week. my dog has improved with people. i never force anyone on him, always supervise him. when meeting new people he's onleash and i instruct them what to do around him. he has progressed to accepting our friends which did not happen for a long time. i had them play with him, feed him etc. he will never be the type of dog that will let anyone but us get real touchy feely with him, but he has learned to like our friends and except strangers in a controlled inviroment. i also taught him to give kisses, thinking that if he has to use his mouth better to kiss people than nip. and thats what he does with people. all very controlled stuff........i take him to walmart hang out do Obedience, practice desesatizing him to whats going on around him. we do a few new places every week where there are people. i take him to the local graqmmer school work on the sidelines in Obedience, walk bys with people, watching the kids, etc. lots of work.
you might want to get your dog into an activity like tracking, you can build a very trustful relationship in working your dog, that and through Obedience its amazing what can happen.


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## Lucy Dog

llombardo said:


> Starting with this sentence...its not only this dog, it can be any dog and any/all precautions should be taken with any dog. I disagree with the muzzle part, I have seen dogs that had to have muzzles on and IMO it only makes them more vicious, the dog needs to be socialized and trained more and ALWAYS on a leash. I had one dog that bit someone and he never did again after that, it was provoked. As far as him knocking over the child, I don't see or believe that it was done on purpose. And last but not least, are you 100% sure that the neighbor he bit hasn't teased or done something to your dog in the past that would make your dog believe that they were a threat?


Oh come on... your whole response is extremely naive. Possible teasing? All dogs need every precaution necessary? More socialization with no muzzle should do the trick? Comparing your dog, who was provoked, to this situation? You think this was just some fluke?

I don't think you're understanding the severity of what this dog has done. Going with the facts, this dog sent someone to the hospital with a deep puncture wound. As mentioned already, this was not a nip and run. This was a full on attack to an innocent bystander.

This dog absolutely needs a muzzle at all times for now on. I don't care if it amps the dog up a million times worse, at least he's not biting anyone. That's priority number 1 - no more biting. 

This dog needs training and control. This is not going to go away overnight. Hopefully the OP considers going to that training center even though it's a far drive.


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## sashadog

I would agree with a more drastic approach. Training (no matter how far away it is, make it happen), a muzzle in public, and keep him on a leash at all times. In my opinion, why would you take the risk of him biting someone again?? You now own a liability and you have to treat him as such. Another incident like this again could be much worse, result in him being pts, and it would be completely on your shoulders. 

Also, basket muzzles are wonderful. Get him used to it with the positive association training and they don't see it as punishment. It's just one more tool we put on them, just like a collar, harness, or vest.


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## Twyla

I use this muzzle with Woolf when needed. Straps are leather, basket fits good, small treats can even be given. It allows plenty of room for panting, drinking water.

Using a muzzle is only a stop gap measure, to be used when in tight areas. It can't stop with the muzzle, your dog needs the training and you must stay on top of the management.


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## debbiebrown

i am really hoping the OP is reading this all. so much good advice. it is a frustrating situation, but one that must be taken seriously. hoping they get a good trainer and practice management of the problem. its a long road for sure!


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## KentuckyGSDLover

First, look at the fact the dog is 2 years old. In a GSD, it's a crucial age and a turning point in learning as they enter adulthood. Train, train, train, train. If you want to keep this dog (and it sounds like you do) then work with the dog DAILY and make it clear who is boss and not obeying is not an option. My first GSD bit two people in his lifespan, though not just running out randomly at them nor causing enough damage to necessitate stitches. He was not fear aggressive, but truly protective and the first nip came at about 2 years old when someone picked up something in our yard, the second when he was about 8 years old when someone opened our front door to yell, "Are y'all in there?" The first was worked on seriously, the second was actually our county sheriff who was checking a vin number on a new car we bought from out out ot state and said, "He was doing his job," and he actually was. If your dog is otherwise stable, you can train by yourself by working with the dog in a consistent manner and letting the dog know what your expectations are. 

In your case, the child being knocked over was unfortunate, but the neighbor being bit is bad news. It sounds like your dog had a free rein, was out on a joy ride, being defensively territorial and didn't know better. I myself was bit by a German Shepherd under similar circumstances when I was a child. It got loose from the house and bit me while on the run, simply because it didn't really know what it was supposed to do when it was out. These dogs were bred to herd and protect and need a lot of guidance. First thing you need to train to do is not to go out without your permission, period. In my experience with the two stable GSD I've owned (Rey doesn't count because she's fear aggressive), they need a lot of guidance and absolutes in what is and isn't acceptable behavior. Without that, they're on their own and their decisions are not always the ones we want them to make.


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## Falkosmom

KentuckyGSDLover said:


> ...the second when he was about 8 years old when someone opened our front door to yell, "Are y'all in there?"


:rofl:


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## KentuckyGSDLover

Twyla said:


> Do not allow him to bark at people, if it is standing at the window and barking back him away from the window . . .


Living a mile down a gravel lane, I actually have dogs for this reason. An early warning system. My stable GSD barks when strangers arrive, and then is friendly when I tell him it's "okay" or when they enter the house with me or he goes outside with me. My fear reactive GSD barks whether I say it's okay or not, so I put her up when it is. But I personally would never stop my dogs from barking when people show up. I count on them to do so.


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## codmaster

Braddock said:


> I live in Canada (Northern), so we don't medical insurance issues like people in the US.
> 
> Believe me I have thought about putting the dog down, and I am aware of my own personal liability. Luckily, my neighbour is understanding, whom I work with. I HAVE had 'bad people' on my property before, and in one situation where my dog was not able to protect me from a physical altercation as he was in his fence, and I was in the driveway with a violent person wanting to harm me. I work in law enforcement and these sort of things do happen. This does not excuse his behaviour with my neighbour, but he is protective over me.
> 
> I am NOT making excuses for him. I am NOT in denial. I realize that this is serious, and I am seeking input for solutions to this issues, besides putting him down. I want to solve the problem and not just get rid of him, as I don't believe that is fair to him, and I believe that is perhaps a lazy owners recourse. I am very torn as to what to do with him.
> 
> Believe me, I lost all trust I once had with him, and my family. He has lost his privileges etc, and will have to earn them back. He will be on a leash full time when he is not in his locked fenced back yard. I plan on telling the neighbour what I am doing to 'right' the situation as it improves, to show that I am being a responsible dog owner.
> 
> The nearest community with training businesses is four hours drive one way, so that isn't really feasible at this point.
> 
> I would welcome any forms of advice to deal with this issue. The more constructive the better. I just want to solve this through any means and improve his behaviour.
> 
> *I didn't post this asking for people to declare my dog as "vicious" and having "so poor" socialization. I would go as far as to say that would be irresponsible given that you have never met him. I wouldn't make such a judgement on your dog, so don't assume the same with mine*.


Sounds like "making excuses" to me! From what I read, your dog did not listen to you, ran out of your garage and bit an innocent person out in public property - is that right?

Socialization - you are right, none of us here have any idea what you did or did not do. Doesn't matter in the least anyway - your dog acted as he did!

Vicious - YES! Unless there was a good reason for your dog to have attacked your neighbor (and there was NONE given) - BTW -- definition of vicious = unprovoked attack!

And i would not have to meet any dog to make that determination at all!


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## shepherdmom

Lucy Dog said:


> Now I'm not saying to put the dog down, but please don't be in denial about what really happened.


I'll say it if no one else will. From what I've read... an unprovoked attack, where a person got bitten. The dog should be put down. There is something seriously wrong. I've had dogs get out accidently before and usually they have to go smell the new scents and pee on things. To bite one person and to knock a child down even if it was an accident. Something is not wired right in the dogs brain.


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## Falkosmom

shepherdmom said:


> I'll say it if no one else will. From what I've read... an unprovoked attack, where a person got bitten. The dog should be put down. There is something seriously wrong. I've had dogs get out accidently before and usually they have to go smell the new scents and pee on things. To bite one person and to knock a child down even if it was an accident. Something is not wired right in the dogs brain.


Unprovoked can be very subjective. 

I have personally seen people carrying huge sticks (not sure why, perhaps to defend from loose dogs) and wave them carelessly around dogs and their owners. That is a surefire way to get negative attention from many dogs.

I have also had people start shrieking at me because my well behaved older male is walking off leash at my side totally ignoring them. This is another aggressive human behavior that would not be well tolerated by many dogs.

If dogs in these situations had bitten, would they be considered unprovoked? I don't know.

OP did not see what this person was doing, he was not even aware that they were behind him. 

OP does not really know what happened except his dog scooted out of the garage and bit somebody. He does not know what was the catalyst for the bite.


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## JakodaCD OA

of course none of us were there, but I still think what the dog did, charge out of the garage and just 'go for it', was definately NOT appropriate.

Last nite, I had a couple people stop over, they've never been here before and are both mentally challenged, (not sure how to word that!), anyhow, I was out the door to meet them, and Masi shoved the door open behind me and charged out,,she ran right up to them (no barking or hackling) sniffed them and walked back to me. 

This is a dog who does have a high level of suspicion I'd say, is always on 'alert', has never bit anyone, and is not a social butterfly. 

I 'knew' she wouldn't 'do' anything, she's 4 yrs old and I've got her pegged pretty well.

I was more peeved she opended the door on her own  THIS is what I would expect out of any of my dogs in that type of situation.


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## llombardo

Lucy Dog said:


> Oh come on... your whole response is extremely naive. Possible teasing? All dogs need every precaution necessary? More socialization with no muzzle should do the trick? Comparing your dog, who was provoked, to this situation? You think this was just some fluke?
> 
> I don't think you're understanding the severity of what this dog has done. Going with the facts, this dog sent someone to the hospital with a deep puncture wound. As mentioned already, this was not a nip and run. This was a full on attack to an innocent bystander.
> 
> This dog absolutely needs a muzzle at all times for now on. I don't care if it amps the dog up a million times worse, at least he's not biting anyone. That's priority number 1 - no more biting.
> 
> This dog needs training and control. This is not going to go away overnight. Hopefully the OP considers going to that training center even though it's a far drive.


Naive...maybe we all are, because there is more to this story then we got to hear. YES all dogs can bite and precautions should be taken with any dog that has teeth...I don't care if its a poodle-any dog can bite. You can socialize a dog from 10 ft away without a muzzle with no problems...AGAIN I've seen some GSD's with muzzles and it made them 10x worse, granted it might not be all of them but quite a few. How do you know that this dog wasn't provoked? Nobody knows what has been done previously or even that day...not even the owner knows!! My dog was a 20 pound mix breed that attacked(this was after days of constant teasing by the same people) and when I say attacked I don't mean that he ran up bit someone and ran away...Does anyone think its odd for GSD to bite just once and run? I don't think this was a full on attack, it was a nip and run as stated by OP, dog bit, dog ran, dog knocked over a child? Regardless the dog bit someone and it was someone he sees all the time and that just doesn't make sense unless something more was going on.


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## jakes mom

I've got to admit that our last dog did the same, but with no damage apart from a small bruise. My stupid OH was careless (not for the first time), but unfortunately on this occasion the neighbour was walking up her drive. 

Our dog was very reactive and would, if allowed to, run up to anything or anyone that was moving. He didn't bite but he would nudge sharply with his snout. I was seething with the OH - he knew what our dog was like. I considered all of us, especially the neighbour, to be very lucky - our dog used to get so excited and worked up - he could just as easily caught her with a tooth - thank god he didn't.

We had to make sure he was very well managed. Always on leash outside of our property. He also wore a good halter, and we kept our distance. 

The only good thing to come out of it was, it taught my OH a lesson. 

I personally think that the problem with muzzles is that owners will then put their dogs into situations they struggle to cope with, and that's why they get worse. 

So if the OP is still reading, I hope when she gets a muzzle, she also makes sure that she keeps her distance as well.
_____________________
Sue


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## shepherdmom

Falkosmom said:


> Unprovoked can be very subjective.


You are right it can. All I can go on is what the OP said in the first post. 
"but he knocked me over (we live in a compound type area, where there can be others walking around, with kids, etc). Before I could get up, I saw that he had bit our neighbour on the top of the thigh..."

He knocked the OP over ran out the door and bit the neighbor on the thigh. What is the op going to do if the dog knocks her over again and this time goes for the child? 

Obviously we all have different opinions but with a child in the house I would not take the chance.


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## codmaster

Falkosmom said:


> Unprovoked can be very subjective.
> 
> I have personally seen people carrying huge sticks (not sure why, perhaps to defend from loose dogs) and wave them carelessly around dogs and their owners. That is a surefire way to get negative attention from many dogs.
> 
> I have also had people start shrieking at me because my well behaved older male is walking off leash at my side totally ignoring them. This is another aggressive human behavior that would not be well tolerated by many dogs.
> 
> *If dogs in these situations had bitten, would they be considered unprovoked? I don't know.*
> 
> OP did not see what this person was doing, he was not even aware that they were behind him.
> 
> OP does not really know what happened except his dog scooted out of the garage and bit somebody. He does not know what was the catalyst for the bite.


 
*YES!*

What would a reasonable person think - the guy getting mail with his child must have "provoked" the dog? Not likely!

Better guess is that the dog ran out, saw somebody there and acted extremely inappropriately!!!!


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## KentuckyGSDLover

Good God, y'all. I have never in my life seen a place where more people suggest simply killing a dog as a first option, without even knowing what it's level of training or past behavior has been. One bite and your dead? 
I mean, these aren't teddy bears. They're working dogs that are wired to loyally defend and be vigilant, and we fail them when we don't teach them when to be and when not to be. And it takes work. Lots of work.

The bite is serious. I'd make darn sure it never happens under those circumstances again. That's why leashes and kennels were invented.


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## Falkosmom

codmaster said:


> *YES!*
> 
> What would a reasonable person think - the guy getting mail with his child must have "provoked" the dog? Not likely!
> 
> Better guess is that the dog ran out, saw somebody there and acted extremely inappropriately!!!!


OP does not specify that his neighbor was getting her mail or even that the child knocked over was with her. 

The neighbor could have easily had something in her hand and was waving it hello to OP and the dog mistook this for a possible threat. 

Did the dog act inappropriately? Maybe. There just is not enough information.


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## ksotto333

The neighbor could have easily had something in her hand and was waving it hello to OP and the dog mistook this for a possible threat. 

Did the dog act inappropriately? Maybe. There just is not enough information.[/QUOTE]

The OP was in her garage, a neighbor waving hello from a distance should not be mistaken as a threat, from the original post ..knocking the op down, biting a neighbor is all inappropriate. A small child can be unsteady, and if the dog did not deliberately charge it, it's easy enough for them to fall on their own.


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## codmaster

Falkosmom said:


> OP does not specify that his neighbor was getting her mail or even that the child knocked over was with her.
> 
> *The neighbor could have easily had something in her hand and was waving it hello to OP and the dog mistook this for a possible threat.*
> 
> Did the dog act inappropriately? Maybe. There just is not enough information.


Don't you think that the bite was "inappropriate" - maybe a bark or even a growl but just attacking. C'mon!

*In the words of a great tennis player - "YOU CAN'T BE SERIOUS!"*

Just because I have something in my hand and I wave it - a dog has the ok to attack me?

What do you ok the dog to do if i happen to walk over toward the owner - kill me?


Just for the sake of discussion - would you agree that the neighbor in this case had the right to shoot the dog if she happened to have a gun and the dog came running at her?


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## Falkosmom

ksotto333 said:


> The OP was in her garage, a neighbor waving hello from a distance should not be mistaken as a threat, from the original post ..knocking the op down, biting a neighbor is all inappropriate. A small child can be unsteady, and if the dog did not deliberately charge it, it's easy enough for them to fall on their own.


She could have easily been coming toward him waving her mail at him as if wanting to speak to her about something. 

I fully expect my dogs to be concerned about anybody approaching me from behind waving things in my direction. This is one of the reasons I have them.

My dog bumped into me when we were jogging one time and knocked me down, OP states that she was trying to stop the dog from exiting the garage with one foot and then was knocked over. Seems like a bump from a dog on somebody on one foot could easily result in a fall.

And I can't say biting a neighbor is all that inappropriate. I caught one neighbor repeatedly circling my corner yard and harrassing my dog. I repeatedly told her to leave my dog alone and quit teasing him. I had to take it to the authorities to bring it to an end and to have it documented in case there would be an incident.


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## shepherdmom

KentuckyGSDLover said:


> Good God, y'all. I have never in my life seen a place where more people suggest simply killing a dog as a first option, without even knowing what it's level of training or past behavior has been. One bite and your dead?
> I mean, these aren't teddy bears. They're working dogs that are wired to loyally defend and be vigilant, and we fail them when we don't teach them when to be and when not to be. And it takes work. Lots of work.
> 
> The bite is serious. I'd make darn sure it never happens under those circumstances again. That's why leashes and kennels were invented.


I am the ONLY person who has suggested it and I stand behind it. The bite was from what the OP posted unprovoked. The dog ran out of the garage knocked down the owner, bit someone on the leg, knocked down a child and took off. That does not sound to me like the dog is wired correctly. Any of my shepherds ever get out they run out sniff something and pee on it see a person or a kid sniff them and slobber them.. If something scares them they come run behind me and maybe woof a time or two they don't go attack someone without cause and yes some of my shepherds have been from working lines. 

The OP has a 1 year old child. I would not take the chance with a child in the house! JMO.


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## KentuckyGSDLover

There's no question in my mind that a dog running out and biting a neighbor getting their mail is inappropriate. My question is did the dog know it was inappropriate? That appears to be where the problem is. Everyone jumping on like a bunch of hyenas is not helpful to this person or their dog. I think the combination of suggestions of muzzles in public, looking at taking containment very seriously and ongoing training (whether it be by a professional or by themselves) are good solutions to make sure a random bite never happens again.


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## Falkosmom

codmaster said:


> Don't you think that the bite was "inappropriate" - maybe a bark or even a growl but just attacking. C'mon!
> 
> *In the words of a great tennis player - "YOU CAN'T BE SERIOUS!"*
> 
> Just because I have something in my hand and I wave it - a dog has the ok to attack me?


I did not say that, I said the woman could have been approaching the dog's owner as she was waving her hand/mail/ whatever. She could have very well been 3 feet away. No enough information.

Regarding attacking, OP said the dog nipped and run. I hardly consider that a mauling.



codmaster said:


> What do you ok the dog to do if i happen to walk over toward the owner - kill me?


*In the words of a great tennis player - "YOU CAN'T BE SERIOUS!"*





codmaster said:


> Just for the sake of discussion - would you agree that the neighbor in this case had the right to shoot the dog if she happened to have a gun and the dog came running at her?


Not enough information. For the sake of discussion, if the neighbor was not on OP's property and not making any threatening movements, then I would say, yes, she would have justification to shoot and protect herself.


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## Twyla

KentuckyGSDLover said:


> Living a mile down a gravel lane, I actually have dogs for this reason. An early warning system. My stable GSD barks when strangers arrive, and then is friendly when I tell him it's "okay" or when they enter the house with me or he goes outside with me. My fear reactive GSD barks whether I say it's okay or not, so I put her up when it is. But I personally would never stop my dogs from barking when people show up. I count on them to do so.


I wish I lived down a country road lol

From the op's description, he lives in a close neighborhood. People, adults and kids, walking by frequently. Allowing his dog to bark at strangers, builds up excitement and/or frustration, and the bite that happened is one of the possible end results. A stable GSD will give the alerting bark but won't charge and bite.


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## KentuckyGSDLover

shepherdmom said:


> I am the ONLY person who has suggested it and I stand behind it. The bite was from what the OP posted unprovoked. The dog ran out of the garage knocked down the owner, bit someone on the leg, knocked down a child and took off. That does not sound to me like the dog is wired correctly. Any of my shepherds ever get out they run out sniff something and pee on it see a person or a kid sniff them and slobber them.. If something scares them they come run behind me and maybe woof a time or two they don't go attack someone without cause and yes some of my shepherds have been from working lines.
> 
> The OP has a 1 year old child. I would not take the chance with a child in the house! JMO.


You are free to feel as you wish. However, I am not comfortable with telling a person to kill their dog because of an internet post about one bite. 

See my previous note about my first GSD, Bear. He never harmed a child in his entire 14 years of life. in fact, he was very protective of them. Training taught him when not to protect.

Though I realize sometimes PTS is the only option for a hopeless aggressive dog, there are a lot of circumstances to consider on whether that is the case, and death is final.


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## Falkosmom

shepherdmom said:


> I am the ONLY person who has suggested it and I stand behind it. The bite was from what the OP posted unprovoked. The dog ran out of the garage knocked down the owner, bit someone on the leg, knocked down a child and took off. That does not sound to me like the dog is wired correctly. Any of my shepherds ever get out they run out sniff something and pee on it see a person or a kid sniff them and slobber them.. If something scares them they come run behind me and maybe woof a time or two they don't go attack someone without cause and yes some of my shepherds have been from working lines.
> 
> The OP has a 1 year old child. I would not take the chance with a child in the house! JMO.


If this is the way your shepherds are, then they do not have correct temperaments for working lines. WLs should be aloof, confident, and stand their ground. 

Many people on here strongly believe that a WL GSD is capable of determining what is a true threat and what is not. I am not from that train of thought, but OP did *not* say the attack was unprovoked.


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## Dragonwyke

okay, this is all getting pretty heavy here. ya'll are recommending some pretty drastic measures here. that aren't really necessary. muzzles, shock collars, death. geeze, we're not even looking at serious aggression here. 

this is what i see: 

i see a young 2yr old male gsd. underexercised, undersocialized, untrained, incomplete recall, probably unhappy w/the idea of being shut in the garage AGAIN. he saw an opportunity to escape his impending fate and went for it, and he did an amazing little drive by snap on a person as he was making his getaway. he's 2yrs old so he's still a major klutz on his feet and ran into a kid that happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time when a gsd came barreling down on top of him and knocked him down. there's no aggression here. 

i have a 2yr old, 4yr old and 5yr old, and 3.5yr old non-gsd. every single one of then went thru the drive bys. it took a couple of months of work to get them to stop doing it. i've had to wear a few butterflies and given myself a few liquid stitches too, i won't go to the hospital for bites because of the paperwork involved. kids that come to our house KNOW that we have rough dogs and they'll probably get knocked down. 

this dog needs training, exercise, proper crating (not a garage), recall reinforcement to rock solid, bite inhibition reinforcement as well so the drivebys don't escalate. this dog is not aggressive or the one bite would've been much, much, much worse. 

dw~


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## Falkosmom

KentuckyGSDLover said:


> There's no question in my mind that a dog running out and biting a neighbor getting their mail is inappropriate. My question is did the dog know it was inappropriate? That appears to be where the problem is. Everyone jumping on like a bunch of hyenas is not helpful to this person or their dog. I think the combination of suggestions of muzzles in public, looking at taking containment very seriously and ongoing training (whether it be by a professional or by themselves) are good solutions to make sure a random bite never happens again.


OP does not state the neighbor was getting the mail. OP had her back to everything and has no idea why the bite occured.


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## shepherdmom

KentuckyGSDLover said:


> There's no question in my mind that a dog running out and biting a neighbor getting their mail is inappropriate. My question is did the dog know it was inappropriate? .


Does the dog know it was inappropriate, SERIOUSLY? Did you just say that? Does it matter? There is a CHILD in the house and the owner has demonstrated that he can not control the dog! When the dog kills the child will you say its ok because the dog didn't know it was inappropriate? This is a 2 year old dog not a puppy. If there was not a child in the house and the owner was willing to do intensive training then maybe the dog could be saved but IMO to play russion roulette with a childs life is not worth it. If you don't find that helpful advise I'm sorry but I think its very important advise. The human child must be the priority!


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## Falkosmom

shepherdmom said:


> Does the dog know it was inappropriate, SERIOUSLY? Did you just say that? Does it matter? There is a CHILD in the house and the owner has demonstrated that he can not control the dog! When the dog kills the child will you say its ok because the dog didn't know it was inappropriate? This is a 2 year old dog not a puppy. If there was not a child in the house and the owner was willing to do intensive training then maybe the dog could be saved but IMO to play russion roulette with a childs life is not worth it. If you don't find that helpful advise I'm sorry but I think its very important advise. The human child must be the priority!


Right or wrong, the dog bit a stranger. Many dogs do or would if they could. How does this equate to attacking a family member?


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## shepherdmom

Falkosmom said:


> If this is the way your shepherds are, then they do not have correct temperaments for working lines. WLs should be aloof, confident, and stand their ground. Many people on here strongly believe that a WL GSD is capable of determining what is a true threat and what is not. I am not from that train of thought, but OP did *not* say the attack was unprovoked.


I'm not going to get it it with you about what you think WL should be. My dogs come from a long line of decorated SAR dogs and they are awesome. I have gone out and helped SAR train and have watched the dogs work. If they don't fit your standards well that is your problem not mine. Let me tell you SAR dogs work off leash in the woods on a regular basis. If they were to go and bite someone while off that leash they would no longer bit fit for duty.


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## Twyla

I hope the op comes back and can wade their way through the back and forth dialogue. There have been some very good suggestions made. The first step would be to have the dog evaluated, by a private trainer if possible to locate close by (honestly be willing to drive if need be) or by video and phone/email. Caledon made an offer that I hope the op has or will take advantage of.


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## Falkosmom

shepherdmom said:


> I'm not going to get it it with you about what you think WL should be. My dogs come from a long line of decorated SAR dogs and they are awesome. I have gone out and helped SAR train and have watched the dogs work. If they don't fit your standards well that is your problem not mine. Let me tell you SAR dogs work off leash in the woods on a regular basis. If they were to go and bite someone while off that leash they would no longer bit fit for duty.


The standard reads: 
The German Shepherd should appear poised, calm, self confident, absolutely at ease, and (except when agitated) good natured, but also attentive and willing to serve. He must have courage, fighting drive, and hardness in order to serve as companion, watchdog, protection dog, service dog, and herding dog.

Thanks for trying to give me credit for writing it, but that was written by those far more knowledgable than me.

And, no, if your dogs are not bred to standard, that is your problem, not mine.

And if a police K9 or PPD would not bite while onleash, offleash, in the woods or in the city, they would not be fit for duty.


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## shepherdmom

Falkosmom said:


> Right or wrong, the dog bit a stranger. Many dogs do or would if they could. How does this equate to attacking a family member?


The dog knocked down the owner, Bit a NEIGHBOR (someone who has every right to be there) and then knocked down a kid. How can you not be worried about the saftey of the family and the enitre neighborhood? 

There was a post by a regular member a while back who was attacked by a neighborhood dog. Go find that thread and maybe look at it from the other side of the coin.


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## msvette2u

> I am not making excuses for him, but I can understand why he did what he did to some extent. Had this been bad guy waiting outside for me, I would have praised him. I can see his thought process somewhat (if that makes sense).


This dog, even having a "thought process" of his own, apart from yours, is wrong.
This dog needs to rely on you to tell him who is 'bad' and who is not. Making decisions on his own is wrong and dangerous as you can see. 

The reason law enforcement impounds and sometimes euthanizes dogs like this is the owner is lacking in the "keeping the dog from being a public menace" so law enforcement steps in and does keep the dog from being a menace, which often means euthanasia.

If you could put up a gate at your door, across the opening so that when you go out, the gate is shut, that'd help keep the dog from charging out. 
Also if you can erect a fence outside so the dog can't charge out and bite someone that might also help. 
I mean...realistically, if the dog is 2yrs. old and he's not been trained already to not charge outside, what's going to change now?
Prevention is the key, and barriers can help with that.


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## shepherdmom

Falkosmom said:


> And, no, if your dogs are not bred to standard, that is your problem, not mine.


Nice red herring and has no bearing on the situation at hand. I really could care less what you think about the breeding of my dogs. My dogs come from REAL working lines not what someone somewhere put on a piece of paper. BTW my dogs sire and dam are both decorated veterans as are brother nephew and many other dogs in the line. They are also registered, so obviously they fit someones paper work somewhere. 

In any case enough with the distractions. It what fantasy world do you live in is it ok for a dog to attack a neighbor on purpose? The OP is lucky it didn't happen here. A lawyer or 10 would already be involved.


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## msvette2u

Decorated?? What does that mean?
(sorry, slightly OT)


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## Falkosmom

shepherdmom said:


> The dog knocked down the owner, Bit a NEIGHBOR (someone who has every right to be there) and then knocked down a kid. How can you not be worried about the saftey of the family and the enitre neighborhood?
> 
> There was a post by a regular member a while back who was attacked by a neighborhood dog. Go find that thread and maybe look at it from the other side of the coin.


Sorry, my dog knocked me down while jogging, bumped my niece when she was younger and knocked her down, and he would surely have bitten the neighbor that teased him if he could have, that gives me no reason to mistrust him with family members.

And because somebody is a neighbor, that does not give them rights to come on your property and make threatening gestures at you. 

I have zero fears or concerns that from this dog's actions that he is a menace to his family. None.

I do agree that the owner needs to step up to the responsibility plate to ensure that the dog NEVER gets out unsupervised and puts innocent people in jeopardy.


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## Falkosmom

shepherdmom said:


> If they don't fit your standards well that is your problem not mine.





shepherdmom said:


> I really could care less what you think about the breeding of my dogs.


Own your own words. Don't act like I made a comment on your dogs breeding. You did.


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## Falkosmom

shepherdmom said:


> In any case enough with the distractions. It what fantasy world do you live in is it ok for a dog to attack a neighbor on purpose? The OP is lucky it didn't happen here. A lawyer or 10 would already be involved.


Back to OP original post, it was a nip, not an attack.


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## msvette2u

A "nip" that needed stitches!???


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## selzer

Will you people stop going back and forth, remember there is a young dog's life at stake here. I think you have said what you think about it, it is not your job to convince the OP and everyone else that your point of view is the correct one. 

Dragonwyke, awesome post.

Personally, I think the OP needs to find someone real, in the flesh, nearer than 4 hours away and start working with them. Create an action plan, leadership, training, exercise, and management, not necessarily in that order. Outline it and let the neighbor know how you are handling it.


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## kiya

To the OP, I hope you stick around here. It is a very bad situation. I haven't read all of the posts. Fortunately the person is not pursuing legal action. So I would be on top of my dog's every move. 
At 2 yrs old I would like to think your dog can be helped. 
My friend has a extremely friendly GSD, he's about 5. They took his brother in because his owner got sick, not so friendly dog. I am a very dog savvy person and honestly don't ever remember meeting a dog that didn't like me. Well one night I stopped over their house, and meet him for the first time. I avoided looking at him, I did what ever I thought was "correct". He barked almost the whole time I was there. As I got up to leave (not abruptly) he lunged at my back. Fortunately he grabbed hold of the hood of my leather jacket. The husband wasn't home and my friend was absolutely mortified. Of course I told her don't worry, I was fine. I was upset that the dog didn't like me. A short time after that she called me in tears, he did it again. I don't remember if he broke the skin. They were going to have to do something. 
A few months later, we went to their house for a party, I found out they decided to keep him. Both dogs were out and about with all the people. As I was talking to the husband and petting one of the dogs that I thought was the friendly dog, he informed me it was the other dog. I could not believe how friendly he was being, with everyone.
I asked him how he turned him around, he didn't get into detail, he just said "they really want to be good". 
I wish you luck with your dog, please don't ever give him the opportunity to ever do that again. Seek professional help at least till your dog is on the right track and you can manage him properly.


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## ayoitzrimz

Sorry, but what does Falkosmom's back and forth with shepherdmom help the topic at all? Or further the conversation at all? Why dont you two leave the bickering to PMs or whatever so we can try to help the OP with his situation...

So sick of having threads derailed


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## ayoitzrimz

selzer said:


> Will you people stop going back and forth, remember there is a young dog's life at stake here. I think you have said what you think about it, it is not your job to convince the OP and everyone else that your point of view is the correct one.


Haha jinx


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## shepherdmom

msvette2u said:


> Decorated?? What does that mean?
> (sorry, slightly OT)


From websters dictionary online. 

to award a mark of honor to <a soldier _decorated_ for valor>

They have medals for their service in Search and Rescue. Their sire has a memorial and his service record up on one of the SAR sites with a list of the medals and accomplishments. I used to have the link but I can't find it right now. He was an awesome dog.


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## Twyla

selzer said:


> Will you people stop going back and forth, remember there is a young dog's life at stake here. I think you have said what you think about it, it is not your job to convince the OP and everyone else that your point of view is the correct one.
> 
> Dragonwyke, awesome post.
> 
> Personally, I think the OP needs to find someone real, in the flesh, nearer than 4 hours away and start working with them. Create an action plan, leadership, training, exercise, and management, not necessarily in that order. Outline it and let the neighbor know how you are handling it.


:thumbup:


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## codmaster

Falkosmom said:


> *She could have easily been coming toward him waving her mail at him as if wanting to speak to her about something. *
> 
> *I fully expect my dogs to be concerned about anybody approaching me from behind waving things in my direction. This is one of the reasons I have them.*
> 
> ............................
> *And I can't say biting a neighbor is all that inappropriate.* . *?????????...*.............


 
*WOW!*

Waving the mail is a reason to bite?

*So can I shoot your dog for coming toward me?* If so, how close do I need to let him/her come? 10', 20' what?

How about you if you came toward me shouting (or waving your mail?)?


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## Bismarck

take it to another of your own threads plz.

if you're not helping the op, just stop.


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## shepherdmom

Braddock said:


> I think that I have gathered all the help that I can from this online community....


FWIW the OP bowed out long before I got involved.


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## Falkosmom

codmaster said:


> *WOW!*
> 
> Waving the mail is a reason to bite?
> 
> *So can I shoot your dog for coming toward me?* If so, how close do I need to let him/her come? 10', 20' what?
> 
> How about you if you came toward me shouting (or waving your mail?)?


Do dogs recognize the difference between mail, a knife, a gun, ...they just see something in the hand. They are dogs, not people.

If my dog, or anybody's dog is coming at you in a menacing manner and you have no where to go, you have the right to protect yourself. What would it matter 10' or 20'? Do you carry a measuring tape in your pocket?

Would your dog really let a stranger come at you shouting and waving her arms and not be suspicious? Is that what you really want from your dog?


P.S. All I was trying to do was to keep the thread from being derailed by people stirring false/inaccurate information into the pot. This did not help OP. Sorry OP.


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## shepherdmom

msvette2u said:


> A "nip" that needed stitches!???


 :thinking: Exactly what I was thinking.


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## KentuckyGSDLover

Yeah, this has turned into more histrionics than my stomach can handle. I hope the original poster, who was seeking help and support, is able to wade through the BS, make some decisions and work with their dog.


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## JakodaCD OA

really coulda , shoulda , woulda,,it boggles my mind how this original post, went to SAR, my dog is better than your dog, maybe she was waving the mail, maybe she was waving a flag? was she 'even' getting the mail? and the list goes on,,what in hades does any of that 'speculation' have to do with what the guy said?

a NIP does NOT require stitches. I'll give the dog a pass on knocking over the kid, (he wouldn't get one if the kid needed stitches), the "kid" coulda been in the way and the dog accidentally knocked him over, or heck maybe the kid was waving the mail and it the dog said "mmmmm I'm gonna knock that kid over!"..

Maybe the dog didn't like the mail the lady was receiving??? 

speculation,speculation speculation.. I am not condoning what the dog did at all, but unless you (general you including myself) were there, we can only go by what the OP said..

I also hope the OP can take the good suggestions and weed thru the 'stuff'.


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## CMeredith

Braddock said:


> What I was referring to was, if he had bitten a child. The dog would no longer be here if that were the case. I am sure you agree that knocking a child over while running away is not quite as severe as biting him or her, but all the same, still a concern. Or am I alone on that?
> 
> Secondly, I thought I was pretty clear with "I am NOT making excuses for him. Some people interpret that as somehow I am. I flat out said that this not acceptable, and I know that it is a SERIOUS problem. Hence why I came here for some input. Perhaps people would rather just criticize than offer insight. It was my error for allowing him to get under the garage door, and look what happened. I take responsibility for it.
> 
> I agree however, that the muzzle is a good idea if he is out at all. Even on leash, which will be the norm from now on.
> 
> I think that I have gathered all the help that I can from this online community....


 
You people are criticizing the DOG for being vicious??? The dog has nothing on some of the people in this community. What this forum really needs is a banner across the top of the page that says "BEWARE! WE EAT OUR YOUNG"

There were so many great recommendations from many in this thread, but they were totally lost amid the blood and guts of ripping him to shreds. The guy tried to be as clear as he could that it wasn't his intention to make excuses and that he just wanted a little help. What SHOULD he have said according to some you?

Of course he made mistakes but wanted to correct that now. You just lost someone you could have helped. Isn't that the purpose of this forum? Going for someone's throat who came here with a good attitude doesn't help anybody.


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## Jax08

Now THIS thread is a good example of redirected aggression...and I'm not referring to the dog in question.


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## Twyla

CMeredith said:


> You people are criticizing the DOG for being vicious??? The dog has nothing on some of the people in this community. What this forum really needs is a banner across the top of the page that says "BEWARE! WE EAT OUR YOUNG"
> 
> There were so many great recommendations from many in this thread, but they were totally lost amid the blood and guts of ripping him to shreds. The guy tried to be as clear as he could that it wasn't his intention to make excuses and that he just wanted a little help. What SHOULD he have said according to some you?
> 
> Of course he made mistakes but wanted to correct that now. You just lost someone you could have helped. Isn't that the purpose of this forum? Going for someone's throat who came here with a good attitude doesn't help anybody.


:thumbup:


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## sparra

Falkosmom said:


> Do dogs recognize the difference between mail, a knife, a gun, ...they just see something in the hand. They are dogs, not people.
> Would your dog really let a stranger come at you shouting and waving her arms and not be suspicious? Is that what you really want from your dog?
> 
> *P.S. All I was trying to do was to keep the thread from being derailed by people stirring false/inaccurate information into the pot. This did not help OP. Sorry OP.*


Entertaining thread 
I am still trying to work out where the OP said the neighbor was *1.* Collecting mail *2.* waving it at them *3.* walking towards them??
I think you call that *"stirring false/inaccurate information into the pot"* Falkosmom..........


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## Falkosmom

sparra said:


> Entertaining thread
> I am still trying to work out where the OP said the neighbor was *1.* Collecting mail *2.* waving it at them *3.* walking towards them??
> I think you call that *"stirring false/inaccurate information into the pot"* Falkosmom..........


That is just it sparra. I did not say these things, and neither did OP. Other people were saying such things as put the dog to sleep because the dog bit somebody unprovoked. OP never said that the dog bit unprovoked or that the person bitten was getting their mail or anything else. I am the one that kept saying OP did not say this stuff but I am the one that was getting grilled for assumptions others were making.


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## Falkosmom

codmaster said:


> *YES!*
> 
> What would a reasonable person think - the guy getting mail with his child must have "provoked" the dog? Not likely!


Neither myself nor OP said the bitten person was getting the mail.



sparra said:


> Entertaining thread
> I am still trying to work out where the OP said the neighbor was *1.* Collecting mail *2.* waving it at them *3.* walking towards them??
> I think you call that *"stirring false/inaccurate information into the pot"* Falkosmom..........


Yet I am still being the one accused of saying it, and so many other things I did not say. 

Wow! Yes there is a lot of redirected aggression in this thread.


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## Falkosmom

Falkosmom said:


> OP does not specify that his neighbor was getting her mail or even that the child knocked over was with her.
> 
> The neighbor could have easily had something in her hand and was waving it hello to OP and the dog mistook this for a possible threat.
> 
> Did the dog act inappropriately? Maybe. There just is not enough information.


This was my response to codmaster saying the bitten person was picking up their mail.


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## selzer

I think that a dog that bites someone one time, can be worked with. A full out attack is a dog that bites over and over and over again, and either needs the person to stop moving or needs to be pulled off of them. And unless a dog is specifically trained to continue to bite until commanded to stop, I would think that maybe the dog wasn't wired right and a threat to humans. 

This dog, while the bite was bad, drew blood and required stitches, it does not sound like it was a triple-strike-bite. Add to that that this dog is reaching maturity, and that the owner does not have training facilities near him, which kind of suggests the dog really has not had any regular training, and possibly hasn't much socialization. And then maybe the barking is somewhat encouraged -- they are guard dogs right? 

Don't get me wrong, this is a bite and needs to be dealt with, the owner needs to completely change whatever he has been doing with the dog, and ensure that there is no opportunity for this to be repeated. But I think with the information volunteered by the OP, condemning the dog is premature.


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## shepherdmom

CMeredith said:


> You people are criticizing the DOG for being vicious??? The dog has nothing on some of the people in this community. What this forum really needs is a banner across the top of the page that says "BEWARE! WE EAT OUR YOUNG"


:spittingcoffee: OMG I can't believe this thread is still going. However it is an entertaining read after getting off of a stressful day at work. 

Jakoda the OP was long gone before the arguments even got started. He stated way back on like page two he had gotten all he had gotten all he could out of this thread, long before I ever made my first comment and way before falkosmom and I got into it over what was a working line dog. I'm sure if he had been posting and clairifying the situation the speculation wouldn't have gone so far over the top.


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## Falkosmom

shepherdmom said:


> :spittingcoffee: OMG I can't believe this thread is still going. However it is an entertaining read after getting off of a stressful day at work.
> 
> Jakoda the OP was long gone before the arguments even got started. He stated way back on like page two he had gotten all he had gotten all he could out of this thread, long before I ever made my first comment and way before falkosmom and I got into it over what was a working line dog. I'm sure if he had been posting and clairifying the situation the speculation wouldn't have gone so far over the top.


Agreed!


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## codmaster

Falkosmom said:


> Do dogs recognize the difference between mail, a knife, a gun, ...they just see something in the hand. They are dogs, not people.If my dog, or anybody's dog is coming at you in a menacing manner and you have no where to go, you have the right to protect yourself. What would it matter 10' or 20'? Do you carry a measuring tape in your pocket?
> Would your dog really let a stranger come at you shouting and waving her arms and not be suspicious? Is that what you really want from your dog?
> P.S. All I was trying to do was to keep the thread from being derailed by people stirring false/inaccurate information into the pot. This did not help OP. Sorry OP.


 
Unbelievable attitude!

Thread is over!

BTW, my dog would probably let *"Her"* get away with a lot more than *"Him"* - just because of what he is like!

And yes, the distance is critical as it is with every properly trained protection dog!


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## Falkosmom

codmaster said:


> Unbelievable attitude!
> 
> Thread is over!
> 
> BTW, my dog would probably let *"Her"* get away with a lot more than *"Him"* - just because of what he is like!
> 
> And yes, the distance is critical as it is with every properly trained protection dog!


Cod,

I would like to dance with you but I am not interested in taking any more beatings for things you say or questions you ask me.

And you most certainly can't throw any stones on this forum about anybody having attitude.


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## llombardo

So the thread is over for real? Can we get a someone to close it, because I'm sure that another one is started somewhere else


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## shepherdmom

llombardo said:


> So the thread is over for real? Can we get a someone to close it, because I'm sure that another one is started somewhere else


 
Go see eartips are bleeding that is where the current war is. I'm going to go read a book or something I've had enough for today. :surrender:


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## llombardo

shepherdmom said:


> Go see eartips are bleeding that is where the current war is. I'm going to go read a book or something I've had enough for today. :surrender:


There is a post on another dog biting incident(involving a child) and I'm sure that the war will move accordingly


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## msvette2u

llombardo said:


> There is a post on another dog biting incident(involving a child) and I'm sure that the war will move accordingly


Are you trying to egg them on??? A little gleeful here, aren't you??


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## codmaster

Falkosmom said:


> Cod,
> 
> I would like to dance with you but I am not interested in taking any more beatings for things you say or questions you ask me.
> 
> And you most certainly can't throw any stones on this forum about anybody having attitude.


faslk,

You have a nice day!


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## llombardo

msvette2u said:


> Are you trying to egg them on??? A little gleeful here, aren't you??



I figured I'm off of work tomorrow and I might just give everyone a heads up so I can have some informational reading tonite You give me too much credit, they don't need me to egg them on


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