# I need "power steering" for Abby



## XTOL (Jun 9, 2010)

Or maybe what I really need is power brakes...

To say that Abby pulls on the leash is an understatement. She is
strong as an ox and stubbornly determined to drag me wherever we
are going. Its gotten bad enough that no one else can walk her.
And even though Im a fairly big guy she has pulled me off my feet
twice in the past week.

Ive tried all the normal fixes and while some help in the short term
none have made any real difference. So Im thinking its time for the
dreaded prong collar. In reading all the threads I could find on prong
collars and other web pages Ive seen a couple of references that
putting a prong collar on your dog is like "getting power steering
for your dog".

After all that reading I do have a couple of questions since I have
never used a prong collar before. First of all...where to get one.
None of the local pet outlets have anything that looks like it could
manage a dog with the power of a small locomotive. They have
cheap flimsy looking made in China stuff.

There are lots of online places but a lot of times you dont know
if the web page you are looking is even in the USA. So a reliable
reference would help.

Secondly...what to get. I read a lot of conflicting info on getting
the right size. Many recommend getting a smaller size and adding
additional links. Since I have to mail order and cant try it on first
I need to know what to get.

Im also open to other suggestions. There are LOTS of special
collars, leaders, harnesses, and halters that claim to be the ultimate
solution to pulling dogs. Most probably dont work as claimed.
But if someone has some experience with something let me know.

One way or another little Miss Abby is done dragging me around.


----------



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

find a trainer. train, train, train
and socializie, socialize socialize, everyday.
train in short sessions many times.
train day and night, indoors, outside, etc.


----------



## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

Leerburg | Prong Collars and Fur Saver Collars
I do not have one of theirs but they come highly recommended from many people here. Give it a look over.


----------



## Wolfiesmom (Apr 10, 2010)

I got one at Petsmart. I got it a little too big and took the links out. It works wonders. I am a very small woman ( 5 feet 2 inches tall ) and Wolfie is a big strong male GSD. He pulled me once with the prong on and never again. He walks right by my side, and I only need one hand on a loose leash.


----------



## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

I can't believe you said 'dreaded' prong collar!! They're a wonderful tool and much easier on the dog's neck than yanking and pulling. I started Stosh with one when he was about 6 mos old and we've never had to go through the yank and drag. Leerburg has a lot of info on how to fit and use one, but if you're really in doubt get a trainer to help you. My trainer put one around my arm so I could feel how it works. I still use one on Stosh when we're going somewhere new and I want to know I have control- he responds instantly just to wearing it now.


----------



## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

What else have you tried? No-pull front attach harness? Head collar? Clicker training? Penalty yards? 'Be a tree'? If you let us know what you've already tried people might have some ideas.


----------



## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

vat said:


> Leerburg | Prong Collars and Fur Saver Collars
> I do not have one of theirs but they come highly recommended from many people here. Give it a look over.


I agree with this, also there is a great video on how to properly fit the dog which is SO important.


----------



## BadLieutenant (May 9, 2010)

Also bought one from leerburg. Ended up taking around 4 links out but wish i would have went to the prong immediately rather than spending around 100 bucks on useless harnesses, collars etc.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I would get a Herm Springer...don't go cheap.
They can be purchased online or if you have a Pet Supplies Plus, they carry them too. If your dog is short coated then get a smaller gauged prong, long coats are better off in the larger gauge as their coat will tangle with the smaller size.


----------



## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

I have 2, one came with Doerak, and the other is a Herm Sprenger, which I have never used. 

If you get one from a store, make sure it does not have any sharp edges on the prongs. Those are the cheap ones. The prongs should be nice and round and smooth. 

The Leerburg page is a good start to see about fitting. Chances are, whichever you buy is going to be too big and you will have to take links out. You should NOT be able to slip it over the dogs head, nor do you want to. You put it on the dog by removing a connection in the links and then restoring that connection. Unless you have one with a quick release. 

Prongs are nice, but do you really need one?

Balto is a tank. He was the strongest 3 month old, 15 pound puppy I ever met. I even tried it tie the leash around my waist when we went for walks and that HURT! Balto still pulls when I let him get his way. However, when I insist, he will keep a slack leash. 

How do I insist? I use the often heard methods of 1) being a tree, and 2) walk the other direction. I have never tried the "no-pull" products and my 2 prong collars are hanging on a hook in the garage. I once tried using the prong collar on Balto. Never seen anything like it before. Didn't slow him down one bit!

Just want to put that out there. I'm not against the prong, use it for a little while during a training period. But I am against using it for the life of the dog as a crutch and ignoring training.

BTW, if that's a photo of Abby in your avatar, she's adorable!!

(Balto has his CD and RAE, so he knows how to heel. LOL!)


----------



## XTOL (Jun 9, 2010)

doggiedad said:


> find a trainer. train, train, train
> and socializie, socialize socialize, everyday.
> train in short sessions many times.
> train day and night, indoors, outside, etc.


Ive been doing that since day 1. We have had one 6
week training course and made lots of progress. If I
take her out for a training "session" she is all business.
Until she gets bored.

The problem is our everyday walks and pee runs.
We are due to start another set of classes in mid March.
I wanted to get a handle on this prior to then.


----------



## XTOL (Jun 9, 2010)

Chicagocanine said:


> What else have you tried? No-pull front attach harness? Head collar? Clicker training? Penalty yards? 'Be a tree'? If you let us know what you've already tried people might have some ideas.


We went through a set of classes last fall. We were working on using the traditional choker collar for training. She became "collar smart". When I put the training collar on she is all business.

The big problem comes with our regular walks and pee runs wearing
just a flat collar. Thats when she pulls. Putting the training collar on
all the time doesnt work because she soon figures out we arent really
doing training practice.

Ive tried "being a tree". Standing until she quits pulling.
And she does quit right away. Until we start moving.

Ive also tried reversing direction. This works in the short
term. But its never eliminated the behavior. Just corrects
it for a few minutes.

I know this is a problem of my own creation. When she
was small she wouldnt walk at all on leash. I had to
continually coax her along. When she started showing
some enthusiasm for walking and started pulling back
then I let it go. And it got worse and she got stronger
and I let it go. Until now its a habit and she is strong
as an ox.

She is now almost 10 months old and Ive been trying
to fix this since she was 5 months. Some days we seem
to be making progress. Other days not so much. 2 days
ago she lurched forward on me and caught me off balance and
a slippery road and I went down hard. I have a deep bruise on
my right forearm. Im lucky I didnt break it falling on an asphalt road.


----------



## XTOL (Jun 9, 2010)

BlackPuppy said:


> Prongs are nice, but do you really need one?
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, if that's a photo of Abby in your avatar, she's adorable!!


Thats what I dont know. I see that a lot of people
recommend them saying they are better than using
a choke collar. Ive just never used one and its not
something readily available here. Other than cheap
Chinese made ones.

I just know I need something to get us out of the rut
we are in.We cant seem to make any progress. What
Ive tried so far has not been working.

Abby has always been a bit of a butthead and is as
stubborn as they come.

Yes that is her in the avatar at about 15 weeks. Now
she is almost 10 months and somewhat larger...


----------



## DanielleOttoMom (May 11, 2010)

I though prong collars were evil too just b/c it looks scary. My trainer suggested I use one b/c Otto was pulling me all over the place. Now Otto is great on a leash. He self corrected him self only a few times. No more blisters for me. I was told by my trainer to by a German steel collar they are great and won't rust. I bought a Herm Sprenger collar from Leeburg. Watch the video they have on the site it's very important. I was told by a few people the ones at the pet stores are pointy, rusted easy and fall apart. Good luck hope this helps out.


----------



## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

I use a Herm Sprenger as well- our obedience club fits training collars so I got it there. I'd definitely check out the Leerburg videos. Read some of the training blogs too. The first time Abby pulls against it she'll get the idea. My trainer demonstrated how it worked and Stosh gave a little yelp out of surprise so she might too. Now when he sees it he gets so excited because he knows we're off to somewhere new and fascinating.


----------



## XTOL (Jun 9, 2010)

Stosh said:


> I can't believe you said 'dreaded' prong collar!!


Dreaded...by me. Because Ive never used one and have no experience
with one.

Ive had a number of dogs over the years. Some big some small.
Collie, black lab, basset, dachshund and a male GSD before
getting Abby. I even cared for a rotty for 14 months while his owner
was deployed in Iraq. None of those ever gave me a problem like Abby.

Ok...so Im looking at the Herm Sprenger collar but still not sure what
size to get. Abby is wearing a 20 inch choker although an 18 will
fit. The 18 is a bit tight going over the ears. So would a 20 inch
prong be right? And do I need additional links?


----------



## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Herm Sprenger German Steel Prong Dog Collars | PetEdge.com This is where I got Raven's. She wears a 2.25mm and I also bought the 3 extra links but don't remember if she has one extra link or two. 

The smaller gauge gives more points of contact and what I found was a better correction with less effort from me (she had the 3.0mm before).

If you do use the prong, just remember that it is a tool to teach her where she should be walking and shouldn't need to be used on forever. 

Also, you should have someone show you how to make a correction appropriately. They should not be self correcting on a walk. If she goes ahead, you give a pop (correction) and then the leash goes slack again and she hopefully learned to stay closer to Mom.


----------



## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

XTOL said:


> Ok...so Im looking at the Herm Sprenger collar but still not sure what
> size to get. Abby is wearing a 20 inch choker although an 18 will
> fit. The 18 is a bit tight going over the ears. So would a 20 inch
> prong be right? And do I need additional links?


I might be misinterpreting what you meant, but a prong collar is not put on by slipping it over the head so the size of choke collar you have right now doesn't really matter. Measure the size of your dogs neck just below the ears, and then get something larger because if it's too big you can always remove links, but if it's too small then you won't be able to use it. Additional links are good to have around in case some of them loosen up over time from routinely putting the collar on and taking it off, plus if you order a collar that should have fit just right but it ends up being too tight, you'll have to buy additional links which will cost extra money and waste time with shipping and everything. 

Here's a good article about properly fitting a prong collar: How to fit a Prong Collar


----------



## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

+1 for herm sprenger... it's worth a little extra money. No rust, no bent links, and it just seems like it works better. Plus I've seen so many of the cheap collars with edges that look like they were just cut straight (so if they dug in sideways they could cut the dog) but you don't see that with a sprenger collar.

I usually get the 3.25mm / 20 inch although if you could find a 3mm / 18 inch that would be ideal. Some people like to go even smaller but it's been working fine for us


----------



## Kris10 (Aug 26, 2010)

Best thing to do is have a trainer fit the collar and show you how to use it. If not used properly a prong will be useless. Good luck!


----------



## XTOL (Jun 9, 2010)

Kris10 said:


> Best thing to do is have a trainer fit the collar and show you how to use it. If not used properly a prong will be useless. Good luck!


This is exactly what I intend on doing. Abby and I are starting our 2nd
set of training classes in mid March. So I want to get the proper collar
now and have it ready to go when we start the classes.


----------



## valreegrl (Nov 11, 2009)

XTOL said:


> Dreaded...by me. Because Ive never used one and have no experience
> with one.


^ exactly  

Prongs are a training tool, and I believe there are better ways to get to the final result you are looking for without it.

There isn't a "quick fix" with anything you use, prong included. I would try a few training foundations and utilize them while on your walks. 
Such as the "watch me" command. "Watch me" is when your dog gives eye contact. Have your dog sit directly in front and as for a "watch me". When you get eye contact, reward. Keep going until you are getting it every time. Then practice walking around your home and yard. Ask for a "watch me" and reward your dog for checking in. As soon as the leash becomes taut is when you ask for it. The dog has to naturally turn their head/body which provides slack in the leash. 
Use a lure, food reward, in your hand while walking keeping your dog at your side. Slowly fade out the reward. 

This foundation training is forever while a prong is not. Often times dogs are no longer sensitive to a prong and you will have to keep adjusting to get results, the wrong results.


----------



## Junofan (Feb 25, 2011)

One thing I dislike is always giving treats for anything your dog does... Training without treats may be harder but your dog will be more healthy without them... 

I have trained other breeds and did not have to rely on treats for every training session. With GSD's, are treats really needed?


----------



## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

Junofan said:


> One thing I dislike is always giving treats for anything your dog does... Training without treats may be harder but your dog will be more healthy without them...
> 
> I have trained other breeds and did not have to rely on treats for every training session. With GSD's, are treats really needed?


Nothing wrong with giving treats, it gets fast results when teaching a new behavior. And pairing with a clicker gives the fastest results. 

I only use treats for heeling as a method to teach the dog the proper position next to my leg while standing still.


----------



## pache11 (Dec 20, 2010)

The Herm Springer quick release prong collars are great if your fingers have trouble engaging the standard prong collar. After using a prong collar for a short while, the fur saver collar noise was enough to continue the correction. It is amazing how shepherds pick up on subtle clues.


----------



## pache11 (Dec 20, 2010)

Junofan said:


> One thing I dislike is always giving treats for anything your dog does... Training without treats may be harder but your dog will be more healthy without them...
> 
> I have trained other breeds and did not have to rely on treats for every training session. With GSD's, are treats really needed?


Treats can be used as part of the daily food ration for your shepherd. Use a high quality treat that is nutritional. Small treats are preferable and I like to use treats that are only about a 1/4" or so. 

Treats are just a tool for building motivation and drive. Many high drive shepherds prefer toys to food. I like using tugs, easy to control, my dog loves them, and easy to hide. Each dog is different when it comes to motivation. Find out what motivates your dog.


----------



## Junofan (Feb 25, 2011)

Sounds good... Thanks.


----------



## plusdoegsd (Nov 15, 2010)

i believe any dog can be trained to not pull on a leash with or without the prong collar. never stop training to not pull. remember if a dog is neglecting to follow commands go back in training a few steps. never be too proud to go back and refresh a subject currently seeming mastered. part of the process just please for his sake dont let him win!!!!!


----------

