# I really am at my wit's end.....



## jenniferloella (Oct 16, 2009)

hey everyone, I've joined this group looking for some advice or help with our 6 year old male (neutered) GSD. we have had him since he was a pup, he was raised with cats and other dogs, however the first "incident" happened on thanksgiving of 2006 when he killed one of my cats. it appeared to be a case of playing too hard and not knowing his own strength, as he did not tear it apart but shook it too hard after it got slap happy with his nose. sigh. after that, we kept him separated from the other cat because she was 17 at the time, I had her since I was 12 and it would have been a great deal of trauma for him to do the same to her.
His aggression has consistently gotten worse, snarling and lunging at other animals, and then this summer he killed a neighbor's daschund that got into our yard. it was devastating. We do have another dog that he is completely okay with. he has never been aggressive to us or our children (4 and 6) we have tried shock collars, we have tried taking him to the dog park to expose him to other dogs more, we have enrolled him in obedience class to expose him to other pets (muzzled) but his reaction is just....scary. as a result he is kept soley in the yard more and more. so many people walk their dogs without a leash around here, i just fear another dog will run up to us while we're walking and eventhough Jager is leashed I wouldnt be able to stop it. this morning a cat came into our yard and he got a hold of it, he droppit immediately when I told him to, and the cat ran off. But it had a collar on, and it just kills me that it is someone's pet and I'm not sure if it is okay or not. It has to stop. I made a commitment to him to give him a forever home, but the constant stress is killing me. I have to go into the vet first and make sure no one else is in there with animals, he cannot join me in the driveway while I wash the car because I"m afraid a neighbor's dog will walk by, when he barks in the yard I rush to the door to make sure he does not have another cat.....I never leave him in the yard alone because I'm afraid something will happen while I"m gone and animal control will come take him or something. Maybe an irrational worry, but something stuck in my head nonetheless! I am a total basket case now! Does anyone, anyone have any words of wisdom?


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## TaraM1285 (Sep 24, 2009)

Has he been checked for thyroid problems?


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## shilohsmom (Jul 14, 2003)

As Kristin mentioned I would rule out a medical issue just to be on the safe side. It sounds like you've done a lot to try to improve this situation so lets see what we have. Your yard where the dog is...please describe it....is there a fence? If so what kind, how tall, details pls. ....is the dog tethered while outside? It sounds like he is in the front yard, can he be moved to the back yard?


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## Mandalay (Apr 21, 2008)

http://www.petplace.com/dogs/medical-causes-of-aggression-in-dogs/page1.aspx 

http://www.vetinfo.com/causes-aggressive-behavior-dogs.html 

These are a few links to medical reasons a dog would become aggressive. You can google for more, but I would get him into the vet for a workup before this escalates even further. There has been more than one case here on the board of a dog becoming aggressive and it being linked to thyroid disorder.


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## shilohsmom (Jul 14, 2003)

One thing I did to make sure (the best that I can) that no animals get into our yard is to install a second six foot fence inside my other fence. I used 6' Welded Wire Fencing and its worked great. I did a quick search on line (just so you can see a pic of what I'm talking about)...its like this stuff:
http://www.weldedwirefence.com/

This stuff was easy to install and it keeps little dogs off my property. I was able to avoid fence restriction laws because its 'temporary' (its not cemented into the ground







). 
It was also very affordable. 

Would something like this work?


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## shilohsmom (Jul 14, 2003)

Another suggestion would be to work with a trainer one on one to address the issues. You could look for someone that specializes in these types of issues who could help you both. 

Also, how much excercise is the dog getting? It sounds like its getting so hard for you that your not taking him out much, but at the same time if he's spending more and more time in the yard this could make it more agressive.


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## jenniferloella (Oct 16, 2009)

no I don't believe my vet checked his thyroid, I don't think any blood was drawn when we were there last......
he is kept in the backyard mostly, and in the garage when we are not home. our back yard is a wood fence all around, 6 feet, which he can peer over when he stands up. I've thought about running a small electric fence along the inside of our fence to keep him off it (hi gets in some pretty intense arguments with the neighbor lab) and also to prevent dogs/cats from slipping in at the gate hinges. the cat from the other day however, jumped into our yard from over the fence. not sure what to do about that. no he is never tethered up. the front yard is not fenced at all, but I bring my other dog out there with me while the kids are doing sidewalk chalk, etc and I always feel bad that I cannot bring Jager out too.
the daschund incident happened in our drive way as I was putting Jager in the car, the neighbors dog was on our front lawn, when he saw Jager he got all yappy and Jager just munched him. Our house has a very long driveway, with fences on either side, and our house is back pretty far from the road, and until then I never thought about letting the dogs walk to the car unleashed.
I am right now going to make him an appointment, what should I be asking they look for? If I ask for a thyroid test because of aggression, shouldn't they know what I'm wanting?
Jager is my third GSD, and though they have all been protective I've never had one that didn't like other animals, BUT the other two were females and I think in the beginning I kind of blamed that.....
thank you guys for the replies......


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## Dinahmyte (Sep 26, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: JenniferLoella
> I am right now going to make him an appointment, what should I be asking they look for? If I ask for a thyroid test because of aggression, shouldn't they know what I'm wanting?


You would hope so, but I've seen vets just check the T4 when people ask. Make sure they do a full thyroid diagnostic profile.


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## TaraM1285 (Sep 24, 2009)

When you take him to the vet, make sure to give a very good detailed and complete history to help them with a full evaluation. They should do a complete physical exam, and if it were me, I would have a full chemistry run on top of the thyroid tests to see if there are any other underlying problems. I think a typical blood panel only includes one thyroid level, I forget which one. I'm hoping someone else can jump in here with the specific factors to check. The clinic I used to work for sent their thyroid tests to the lab at MSU. The good news with thyroid issues is that they're treatable with daily medication.

But, just a heads up, even if it is a medical problem I'm not sure you can count on the problem to completely go away with treatment. At this point, his aggression may have become partially learned behavior and it would probably be helpful to work with a trainer as Rosa mentioned to help you find ways to address the issue. 

It's definitely a good start to have him evaluated medically first. My inclination tells me this is medical since it showed up suddenly after he reached adulthood.

Thank you for not giving up on him! Please keep us posted on how the vet visit goes.


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## shilohsmom (Jul 14, 2003)

Some will disagree with me on this, but I have three GSDs and I've done my best to keep other animals off my property. If a cat comes onto my property and into the fenced yard all I could try to do is save the cat beyond that there is nothing more I can do. In my neighborhood there are many cats and because they are cats there are no restrictions on them. On the other hand, my yard belongs to me and my dogs. Again, I'm sorry if a cat were to get on my property but there is nothing more that I'd be willing to do to keep them away. 

I'm thinking the thyroid info is on one of the links someone posted??? 

Other than that I would work with a trainner to address the dog on dog issues and ways that you can take your dog out and enjoy him more.


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## shilohsmom (Jul 14, 2003)

Re:my above post.

Its not that I don't have feelings about other peoples pets, I do. Its just that there will always be loose cats or dogs that run up to you unleashed, and I have to draw the line when it comes to my responsibility.


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## jenniferloella (Oct 16, 2009)

yeah, my vet before basicly said, "his balls dropped" and that was when we got him neutered. but, it didn't help. this is an old school vet that still does house calls.....this time we will be going to a different clinic.
I think that just knowing it was medical would help me out mentally, right now I feel like i"m harboring a pet eating monster and him being unpredictable makes me wary with the kids eventhough he has never said boo to them.
I cannot convey to you how helpful this has been and encouraging. so nice to hear something besides that he's hopeless and I should put him down........as is most of my family's opinion. needless to say they are NOT invited over for thanksgiving! =)


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

Did you ever think that maybe thats just his personality?
Some people are just STRAIGHT UP mean or crazy. Im not saying your dog is. But I have read where some dogs just dont like other dogs/kids etc. I would watch out for your children. Just in case.
Do you trust him around your family like that?
Im sorry he is acting like that.
I hope things get better for you andyour family.
<3


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## dogs_dolls (Apr 27, 2001)

Here is what you need to do for the thyroid testing. Go to this website...www.itsfor theanimals.com/hemopet.htm

she has specialized in thryoid testing. It has been proven that even a borderline low (but acceptable) thryoid level has worsened aggression. They can do the testing and give you the advice you need to treat., It is not expensive and might save your dog and your mental health!

Check it out and best of luck with your friend.


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## dogs_dolls (Apr 27, 2001)

also just a note...fighting fire with fire seldom works.

Meaning that being aggressive (shock collars, etc) rarely works with an aggressive dog, it just amps them up and makes them worse.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

Where in the NW are you, someone might be able to suggest a good trainer for you


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## jenniferloella (Oct 16, 2009)

Barb, I'm in Salem!
I've been trying to get a hold of K-9 Koncepts out of Albany, have you heard of them? they did his puppy obedience, and also an obedience refresher about 4 years ago - we stopped taking him for refreshers when he became such a handfull around other dogs.
Angel - he has never been aggressive toward a person, yes it has definitely crossed my mind that he is just an







and we have to deal with it haha. He is fine with our other dog.
none of the behavior is new, the animal aggression began about 3 years ago, and has now escalated to the point that he can not even spot a dog down the street without getting all amped up. big dogs little dogs, he wants to eat them all.
his vet appt is on wednesday.....


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

I haven't heard of them. 

You might check with http://www.petvillageltd.com/index.php 
there is a person on the board (Rei) who has a pup from them (Vom HausReid) and I think at least 1 (perhaps 2) that are waiting for their pups to be born or be old enough to come home to them


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## Northern GSDs (Oct 30, 2008)

Lots of excellent suggestions posted here thus far. 

One thing I wanted to mentioned that some people may disagree with but....

You sound very stressed out (which you also mentioned) and I have complete empathy for this. One thought is that because you get so stressed (eg going in for vet visits, walks, etc) over anticipating that something may go wrong, this may be contributing as well (not saying you caused it, but it may be causing the behaviour to further escalate). 

So, my thought is: have you considered a muzzle for when you have to go out (eg to the vets) in the meantime while you work on the issue? It may help to reduce some of your stress levels that he may bite etc and therefore you may feel a bit more in control. Just a thought. Not saying to use this as the only end-all solution of course! A muzzle of course needs to also be introduced correctly if it is something being considered.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Quote:also just a note...fighting fire with fire seldom works.
> 
> Meaning that being aggressive (shock collars, etc) rarely works with an aggressive dog, it just amps them up and makes them worse.


I also agree with that.

Along with the fact keeping the dog in the yard and no longer having him in the house and out in public to TRAIN and TEACH and have him learn to deal with other dogs just makes things worse and worse and worse.

Though I absolutely understand that until you have the tools to deal with the issues, being afraid of dog fights is a real concern. 

Being proactive and learning to work with your dog is vital. The fact that this is only a dog issue is great. If it was people and dogs that would be a real nightmare. 

I'd be calling up trainers and behaviorists (vets generally are no help unless they can refer you to someone else) and KEEP calling until you find a good match is key. 

Frankly, even getting a Head Halter (properly fit, so (once again) a trainer is a help with this) INSTEAD of a muzzle will help. 

http://www.aopclick.com/GL_head_collar.htm










Though your dog may never love love love other dogs, that shouldn't be your goal. Your goal is that your dog knows YOU are in charge, YOU are the leader, YOU need to be looked at and listened to, and if YOU say it's ok and ignore the other dog, then YOU need to be obeyed. 

And this doesn't mean you have to be crazy mean or strict or correcting constantly. It just means your DOG has learned to be calmly guided thru life with you as the 'captain of the ship' 

Once again, leadership is a LEARNED behavior our dogs can't get if they are left ALONE in the yard all the time. They can only look to you and get guidance from you over time by being near/by/with you. And leadership isn't us coming down on our dogs like a load of bricks. It's being calm, consistant, clear and fair. Timing is key for all learning. But you can have treats/toys/play and clickers in the mix and STILL be a leader.

Here's some info on aggressions:

http://www.k9aggression.com/Aggression/aggression_main.html

http://www.wonderpuppy.net/canwehelp/1dbaggression.php


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

I think I'm a little late coming in here but definitely check the thyroid, check the thyroid, check the thyroid. Hemopet is THE place to send the blood, they are the experts. 

I believe that keeping the dog in the back yard is adding to the problem especially since he can't see anything due to the wood fence. It's like being in a large closet. Do you not think you'd go crazy and act out if someone kept you in a large closet your entire life? Do you not get cabin fever if you stay in the house to much and don't get out? So does your dog.

I also know all to well what it's like for your nerves and fears to get the best of you because you're afraid your dog is going to bite someone or kill someone's pet each time you take it for a walk. Been there done that and finally successfully one step at a time getting past it







I figure I'm about 90% there. I never did it but I agree the muzzle is a good idea to help you feel safe when walking your dog which will at least help you get the dog out of the back yard and get some exercise.


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## TaraM1285 (Sep 24, 2009)

Any update on how the vet appointment went yesterday?


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