# Questions about becoming a breeder.



## Shaolin

I have a 4 year old WGSD that, not by our own 'hey, we want puppies from our boy!', but after his breeder saw him after he grew up a bit, she wants to breed him. We have absolutely no issue with this and we are happy to do this for the two-legged mother of our boy. We are working with the breeder and she is guiding us through each and every step of this process. He's been OFA'ed, AKC'ed, and health checked like mad.

My question is this: I have never thought about doing shows. Obedience Trials and SAR are more up my alley than the confirmation ring. Are those that are looking for stud dogs more interested in the Confirmation Titles, or is having a very well trained SAR Dog with some good Obedience Titles just as good? 

I have noticed in the signatures of everyones' posts that they have dogs with dozens of letters after their names. I do not know what any of them mean, but I'm sure they have to do with both Confirmation and Obedience, but when I look online at breeder websites, you never see anyone talking about their dogs doing anything but shows. I know the dog needs to meet the breed standard first and foremost, but I really want to start the learning process so that, one day, I'm ready to do this on my own.


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## Jag

My first question would be why would your breeder want to breed your dog? What's so significant about him? Has he been breed surveyed? There are lots of breeders out there, and your dog must meet breed standards to even be considered. It sounds like you have plans to work with him to prove some "breed worthiness" but IMO your breeder should be seeing something more than a "pretty dog" to want to breed him. There is a thread here on the 'breed standard" which you may want to take a look at. Who is your breeder? What is your dog's pedigree? There's much more involved than just putting together a male and female. Matching pedigrees, and the history and temperament of both dogs is part of it. Just because you have two good dogs, doesn't mean they're going to produce good pups.


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## martemchik

Depending on what the breeder is breeding for its up to them what they want to see. Many ASL breeders could care less about obedience titles and only look for the Ch. in front of the dog's name. And the Ch. isn't that rare...200+ dogs in 2010 I believe. Its interesting that the breeder doesn't care that you haven't shown as many of those breeders do put their best prospects in a home where they expect that dog to be shown.

With that in mind, you've supported this breeder before. Read some of the "reputable breeder" stuff on this forum and do your own research, after that, does this person sound like someone you trust to do the right thing with the puppies and with their breeding program. If this person seems to know what they're doing and you trust them, I can't tell you not to stud to their bitch. In this situation you're really not a breeder.

As the owner of a male myself I have come to the conclusion that if a bitch owner that I know and trust enough to do the right thing with the puppies asks me to stud to their dog I will definitely think about it. I'll check the lines and see if things line up (in your case your dog is already from those lines). It is interesting that this breeder wants to breed to your boy as they should have something in their lines already that has everything your dog has to offer...are you breeding to a family member or a new bitch they purchased?

Depending on your dog, your area, and other things...you probably won't be asked to stud by anyone else based on your dog's current titles and achievements. If you are asked I would really question the breeder asking (no offense). You have correct reservations as your dog hasn't really proven himself against the competition (in conformation or obedience/work). It is very true that most times people that show look for championships and dogs that were successful in the show ring, and people that show in the obedience ring like to see dogs that were successful in that ring. If you start training/trialing now, by the time you're done your dog will be too old to breed anyways...if you're interested in starting one day you can go through it with this one as a learning process for the next one.


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## robk

If I were you I would find a working event that both the dog can excel in and that you enjoy. That may be Search and Rescue, obedience, advanced tracking, or maybe even herding. Too me, a working title says more about the dogs value to the breed than a confirmation title. 

One more thing, if you are out there working and competing with your dog against other GSDs you will get a better idea of whether or not your dog should be used for breeding. The more people who are exposed to your dog in action, the more feedback you will receive (positive or negative) about interest in your dog.


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## cliffson1

I think in all fairness, if you are doing all the health checks, you are working with your breeder, and you are planning to do obedience or agility or something like that, then you are no different than the vast majority of ASL breeders who breed with CH in front of dogs name or even some west German SL breeders, and I don't see people taking them through changes.....so I guess I would say continue the path that I see many other reputable breeders taking.


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## Shaolin

@Jag: Finn comes from a good working line. He came from the last litter between his parents and the breeder wants to restart things with this particular line. She wants to spend quality time with her aging pets before settling back into the breeding cycle. He conforms to breed standard from what she has said (I am trying to stack him to post pictures on this site, but it's not going very well. I have one of him in an *almost* stack that I'll submit.) but she likes his drive. We got great kudos in our SAR group and he has a beautiful temperment.

@martemchik: During one of our several breeder/buyer interviews, we told her that we were looking for a good SAR dog. We sat with her for a long time and talked about what to look for in a pup; good play drive, not the most dominant, but not the little pup sitting all alone in the back. Finn just had that extra something. I was sitting with my husband, trying to make our decision and I was spinning the collar around on my finger when he walked up and plopped his butt down in front of us. He nosed at the collar a few times and when I held it up, he put his nose and head through it, then walked off with his head held high back to his brothers and sisters.

We were told that he was one of two dogs another breeder wanted, but hadn't made her final decision on, so we made a second pick, a pretty girl I initially wanted. We were sure we were going to get the girl when our breeder called and said we got the boy.

Reading the reputable breeder stuff, she had met that and excelled. I laughed with her once during our second phone interview that I'm sure my parents went through less when they adopted me! She told us from the very beginning that we weren't promised a dog; if she didn't like us or something that she heard, we wouldn't get one from her. We trust her immensely. We would be breeding to a friend of hers (another breeder) with their bitch. We are planning on freezing sperm, so the age of Finn isn't too much of an issue. I just get to enjoy him being him.

@robk: We are finishing up our CGC classes next month, then we are going to try and do obedience/working trials.

@cliffson1: Thank you. 

I have no issue with never breeding him. Per the breeder, as much as she would love to continue his line, in the end, it is our decision. She respects it and honors it in every way, which makes me feel pretty good. We have some samples of him frozen and if we find a good girl down the line, we have that option. If not, I'm okay with destroying the samples and starting over with another boy.


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## Whiteshepherds

Shaolin said:


> He conforms to breed standard from what she has said (I am trying to stack him to post pictures on this site, but it's not going very well. I have one of him in an *almost* stack that I'll submit.)


Finn if I'm not mistaken is white and therefore does *not* conform to the breed standard unless your breeder is producing White Shepherds rather than white coated German Shepherd Dogs. White is a disqualifying fault in the GSD breed standard. Finn can't compete in the AKC show ring. No white GSD can have an AKC Championship title. 



Shaolin said:


> Reading the reputable breeder stuff, she had met that and excelled.


Would you mind sharing the breeders kennel name? 



Shaolin said:


> If not, I'm okay with destroying the samples and starting over with another boy.


Looking into the future are you planning on breeding standard GSD's (black and tan etc.), whites, or both?


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## Whiteshepherds

cliffson1 said:


> I think in all fairness, if you are doing all the health checks, you are working with your breeder, and you are planning to do obedience or agility or something like that, then you are no different than the vast majority of ASL breeders who breed with CH in front of dogs name or even some west German SL breeders, and I don't see people taking them through changes.....so I guess I would say continue the path that I see many other reputable breeders taking.


I can't believe you wrote this.


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## cliffson1

Why?.....what about what I wrote was not true???? The issue to me is hypocrisy! How many reputable breeders today are breeding with little more than health checks?, and some titles that any dog can acquire? If they happen to be members of this board they get a pass! See I read very carefully what people write....this poster said they were going to work with their breeder....am I to assume the breeder knows nothing? Especially when the OP says they are going to pursue the same standards as some of the breeders on this forum who are creditable and have much to say on breeding. I'm just trying to be fair, but my gut tells me that the breeder is probably not a BYB breeder. As more info comes out we'll see if this path is much different from many other reputable breeders in the country.


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## Sunflowers

Cliff, do you still agree with the breeding knowing this is a white GSD?


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## Shaolin

@WhiteShepherds: Obviously not in coat color, but when it talks about the body lines (hope I'm using that word correctly), size, and what not. I am very well aware that he cannot compete in the AKC show ring, which is sad, but it is what it is. I would be more than happy to PM you the breeder's name. She came as a recommendation from a breeder in TN and from a breeder in Ohio. 

They had both gotten remarkable dogs from her and they had nothing but wonderful things to say about her and her dogs. There was no kennel name. May I ask what the difference is between a White Shepherd and a White Coated German Shepherd Dog? I've never heard that distinction being made before...

I also would probably stick to White or Black. I have no want or desire to be in a Show Ring. Please do not take offense to my next statement, anyone who does show work, but I am more interested in promoting the working aspect of the dog like Obedience, Agility, and Tracking, than I am being told that my dog isn't good enough because his eyes aren't dark enough, or some little nitpicky thing like that. I have the utmost respect for anyone who does Show Work, I really do. It's just not my thing.

@cliffson1: Thank you. I'm just trying to learn what the nuiances of breeding are. My goal is to breed a line of Working Dogs that will be the envy of everyone. It took us four months before we settled on three breeders that we wanted to even email, let alone get a puppy from. I figured that I was in good hands when two highly recommended breeders named the same person (both breeder's entire litters were spoken for.)


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## cliffson1

I was aware it was a white German Shepherd from the first post. The information the OP presented indicated someone who was trying to do things right with what they had. I just felt that the benefit of positive information given instead of the prosecutorial approach you see from some. Person was new and what they were seeking was not much different than others. Now if I were to come out and openly criticize the bulk of ASL breeders that that also don't meet the test of the prosecutorial police, many ASL people would take offense; likewise if I came out and said very negative things about WGS dogs, I'm sure there would be WGS owners that would be offended and point out the virtues of these dogs. My point is the OP isn't seeking to do anything different then many others that we never challenge.....why challenge them instead of rendering some information about what THEY asked about, instead of what we think they ought to be doing, when we really don't know them. Frankly, the aim of a breeding program is much more important to me. When I hear a person say their goal is to breed the best working dogs they can.....they are in the right pew unlike many others who are critical.
Sorry this upset some, but everyone should be treated with respect, instead of assuming everyone first heard of the breed when they came here. Some people need a lot of education, but first you have to get a feel for where they are....jmo.


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## cliffson1

I know some of you are thinking that, "Hey, Cliff, you can get salty sometime!....well that is the truth, but it is never with new people. I try to be helpful, or correct a misperception they may have.


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## carmspack

"I have a 4 year old WGSD that, " then " Finn comes from a good working line." on this point I am confused. He is show line or working line? What working line has whites?
Cliff is right - I don't have a problem either. Can this dog be the fountain of some of the best working dogs ever -- most likely not -- depends on the lines -- but is the idea good - yes it is.
I am always surprised by SAR being offered as a title. I know that in Canada we have some really severe criteria for SAR teams. I know of one extremely dedicated person who maybe after a year and a half missed ONE training session and was asked to not appear again - .


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## msvette2u

> How many reputable breeders today are breeding with little more than health checks?, and some titles that any dog can acquire? If they happen to be members of this board they get a pass!


:thumbup:


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## carmspack

Shaolin owns a male . That is one of the problems in this discussion. A breeder starts with a female . People don't come knocking your door down to use your male, and if they do the intentions are often wrong (sperm donor and that's about it). 
In this case the person wanting to breed already is a breeder . These are lines familiar to them. The possibility
of building this great working line from this male can be revealed by looking at the big picture of what has already been done -- check out all the littermates, grand parents etc. Go deep into the pedigree . At some point you will have to tap in to working lines and that may be a problem because people don't want their dog producing , siring whites. So you are handicapped, and add to the handicap by saying you will probably stick to whites or blacks.


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## martemchik

OP sorry if you took my post in any bad way but I am pretty much with Cliff on this one. I wouldn't really worry about the future. It sounds like your breeder does know what they're doing and they've asked you for a stud. Like Carmen said, no one is going to be knocking on your door to use your dog, but your breeder who understands the lines he came from and has some idea of what the dog is, asked you for a stud.

If you know the breeder will do everything in their power to check for good homes just like they did with you and also guarantee the puppies like their own, I don't see an issue with it. I wouldn't count on a lot more people coming to ask for your stud services, but if it happens make sure you check them out and understand what their true intentions are.


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## Shaolin

@carmspack: Per the breeder and what the other breeders who recommended her stated, some of her dogs have gone on to do great SAR work, Police work (Possibly in California. I don't remember the specifics), and various other Work/Obedience applications.

@cliffson1: Thanks for not treating me like an idiot.  I love Shepherds, I have all my life. I was 22 before I got my first GSD after spending a good portion of my life learning everything that I could about the breed. I decided that I wanted to learn how to breed them and create good, strong working dogs. I wish that there were no color faults; I think that there are great dogs with the right stuff to pass on to future generations, but because of color faults or incidental size faults; like an inch on either side, they aren't considered "good quality" dogs.

Then again, I'm just not a Show person, so that's probably why I focus on what the dog can do versus what he looks like.

@martemchik: I wasn't offended with what you had to say. I'm not looking to the future so much with Finn as I am just breeding in general. If he mates and produces a litter of awesome pups, then great. If not, I was blessed with one helluva dog. Either way, I'm happy.


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## rshkr

Shaolin said:


> I decided that I wanted to learn how to breed them and create good, strong working dogs.
> 
> I am just breeding in general. If he mates and produces a litter of awesome pups, then great. If not, I was blessed with one helluva dog


i thought your breeder wanted to breed the dog?

you're not even certain...

EDIT: you a PJ?


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## Chris Wild

Shaolin, 
I absolutely think you are on the right track toward breeding; working with an established breeder who is familiar with the lines, doing health tests and testing temperament. As Cliff said, that is far more than many "breeders" do and shows a solid, balanced focus on producing good dogs. Conformation titles are good, but since the goal is to produce dogs with some working ability I would focus on other things, such as the obedience titles and SAR certification you metioned. Of course, ideally do both, but if you have to choose go for those that tell the most about the dog's character, and that is of utmost importance. Plus it sounds like those are the areas you are the most familiar with and interested in.


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## Castlemaid

rshkr said:


> EDIT: you a PJ?


What does this mean??


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## msvette2u

All I could think of was Pajamas...!


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## Whiteshepherds

Shaolin said:


> May I ask what the difference is between a White Shepherd and a White Coated German Shepherd Dog? I've never heard that distinction being made before...


Breeders who refer to their dogs as White Shepherds typically believe the whites would be better served if they were allowed to enter the Foundation Stock Service and work towards becoming a separate breed in the AKC. (this has already been done in the FCI in Europe, the dogs are known as Berger Blanc Suisse - translation is White Swiss Shepherd)
Other breeders believe the whites should remain part of the GSD breed. Some of those same breeders hope to see the AKC/GSDCA remove the disqualifying fault but not all of them. They want to remain part of the breed regardless. 

At this point in time regardless of what they're being called, in the AKC they're all registered as white coated GSD's. Here's few links you might find interesting, especially if you plan to breed whites in the future.
American White Shepherd Association www.awsaclub.com
White German Shepherd Dog Club of America http://www.wgsdca.org/


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## Sunflowers

Castlemaid said:


> What does this mean??


PJ =Para jumper


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## Shaolin

@rshkr: The breeder does want to breed him, but the final decision to do it is up to me. I am weighing the pros and cons of it, which is why I came here and asked my questions. She would love for me to say yes, but I am still not sure. I want to do what is best for my dog and for the GSD breed as a whole. I am happy that we are going to freeze some of his sperm; it gives me the opportunity to find the perfect girl without worrying about having to breed him before he gets too old and in turn, maybe jumping the gun and not finding the best girl with the best lines.

No, I'm not a Parajumper, but the motto of the SAR group I am with is "These things we do...that others may live." Yes, it's the USAF motto, but it works for us. I studied Latin in HS, so I did it in Latin. Finn's full AKC name is Finnian the Irish Lad, as my husband has lots of Irish in him, so I found the Irish translation. We are also both Paramedics and Fire Fighters, our jobs revolve around doing things so that others live...

@Chris Wild: Thank you! That's all I want to do: produce good, strong working dogs. That's why I fell in love with Shepherds in the first place; they are loyal, kind, and loving. They will work until their last breath if it means doing what is right. We are finally going to finish up CGC; I injured my back right before the start of the first class and I found a trainer who's willing to take the extra time to work with us and she is going to help me with some of the specific things I want to work on, but can't do because of my limitations.

@WhiteShepherds: Thanks for that information. I know that there's a push to allow WGSDs into AKC sanctioned shows. I don't see black as a disqualifying fault, but I don't think I've ever seen a solid black shepherd in an AKC show. I sent in the application to the WGSDCA group and I hope to be a part of them soon. By the by, the dog in your Avatar is beautiful.


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## lhczth

cliffson1 said:


> I was aware it was a white German Shepherd from the first post. The information the OP presented indicated someone who was trying to do things right with what they had. I just felt that the benefit of positive information given instead of the prosecutorial approach you see from some. Person was new and what they were seeking was not much different than others. Now if I were to come out and openly criticize the bulk of ASL breeders that that also don't meet the test of the prosecutorial police, many ASL people would take offense; likewise if I came out and said very negative things about WGS dogs, I'm sure there would be WGS owners that would be offended and point out the virtues of these dogs. My point is the OP isn't seeking to do anything different then many others that we never challenge.....why challenge them instead of rendering some information about what THEY asked about, instead of what we think they ought to be doing, when we really don't know them. Frankly, the aim of a breeding program is much more important to me. When I hear a person say their goal is to breed the best working dogs they can.....they are in the right pew unlike many others who are critical.
> Sorry this upset some, but everyone should be treated with respect, instead of assuming everyone first heard of the breed when they came here. Some people need a lot of education, but first you have to get a feel for where they are....jmo.


:thumbup:


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## NancyJ

Since I have a retired SAR (cadaver) dog and one in training (who I hope to certify through NAPWDA at 14 months) I will share some of the angst I have gone through.

Does your team train with the police? I know with Beau when we started training with them they evaluated him for drives, nerve strength, fight drive, etc (well within the limits you would do with a one year old) and a gunfire test. Since he will be a team cadaver dog we have the restrictions about doing bitework that don't allow us to fully assess that quality and that bothers me some.

I went through that same angst when Beau's breeder wanted to use Grim (after seeing him working-she is an experienced K9 handler/cadaver dog handler and knows the lines)...Nature took care of that (sperm check low) and I am glad because I think the male she bred to was actually a better choice-partiucularly now that I have Beau and think he will be an even better dog.

Same breeder really may want to use Beau down the line because he was bred for extreme hunt drive, has a common fatherline, no biggy there (linebred cordon an sat) but a less common and very succesful motherline with regards to scentwork and police work (sontausen) -- As I train him, I look HARD for negatives..reasons NOT to breed him in the future....I saw some breeders website where an untitled dog was koered..is that a possibilty-I did not think so? I realize white would be an issue but it would be nice to have objective third party comments on conformation.

That said....I think frozen sperm and dogs can be pretty dicey, expensive and not so successful.


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## carmspack

Shaolin your approach to things is excellent and your involvement providing service outstanding ( We are also both Paramedics and Fire Fighters, our jobs revolve around doing things so that others live...
. ) WOW This takes dedication. 
You did say " the opportunity to find the perfect girl " so if I can comment on this -- be aware that this takes more than the PHENOTYPE of the dog , the "girl" and your male . Unless there are the qualities that you are looking for available by the genes - the GENOTYPE , which requires deep research into the pedigree , looking at in not in a linear fashion but into a dimensional way, only then will you have the best chance of getting what you want. 

Could I ask why you don't trust your breeder to use your dog (male) responsibly and with best intentions. You did trust them enough to have provided you with this male? 

they did come highly recommended by two breeders and "Per the breeder and what the other breeders who recommended her stated, some of her dogs have gone on to do great SAR work, Police work (Possibly in California. I don't remember the specifics), and various other Work/Obedience applications".

They won't be your pups . They always belong to and are the responsibility of the person who has the female - they are "the breeder" not the owner of the stud. The owner of the stud has control deciding whether his male is bred or not . The care and raising and finding homes and guarantees are all on the shoulders of the owner of the female.

If your breeder is this good I would keep visiting or at least speaking with them. Learn which combinations with your dogs genetics worked best. Since they are breeders they are always looking into the future hoping to find those exciting new dogs with breeding potential that would mesh well. Act in co-operation , have them point some dogs out and have them discuss the plus and minus of each combination.

and you said "They will work until their last breath " SOME - FEW -- if only it were so , there are others who have no desire whatsoever -- no drive and no nerve -- some are just not equipped for it .

Carmen
http://www.carmspack.com


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## Freestep

I just wanted to say... I personally would like to see more WGSDs with true working ability.


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## Blitzkrieg1

A white working line would be very cool. Unless there is bad health or temperment associated with the color white i think DQing them is a practise that should end.


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## carmspack

an isolated white working line would be difficult to find and maintain because you are limited by selecting only white , or black or only black and red , you are denying yourself access to some prime working genetics . Then the other way round also , even if you had a super duper white - you would need to prove that the qualities are genetic and not fluke , and even then the group that is out there will not consider or incorporate what you have to contribute .


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## Shaolin

@Carmspack: Thank you for your kind words. It's not too often we get thanks for what we do and when we do, it speaks volumes.

I trust the breeder completely. I just want to make sure I'm going into this with all the knowledge I can. We are also still doing SAR training...well...taking a break right now because of my back, but hope to be back soon. My fear is that, if he is at a breeder for a week at a time, I would hate to interrupt his training once we get started back up every 3 or 4 months. I am also not sure if I want to do anything without him having a title- more than just CGC. I might decide to just hold off and work my way into the Obedience Trial world with Finn, then the next dog I go into him (or her) with the full intention of Trials and Breeding.

You are right, some dogs just don't have it in them, but, and maybe it's just me being the optimist, but I think it's there in every dog, it just has to be accessed in a different way, or it comes out in a different way.

@jocoyn: We don't train exclusively with the police. Every six months we have to go through the same test we had to go through to get on the team: Reaction to loud noises, unsteady surfaces, children, other dogs, if he is willing to leave with a stranger, and a few other things that I don't remember off the top of my head. I would love to get an objective opinion, tis why I'm here.

As for frozen, I'm working with a great AI specialist who came highly recommended. The group has a pretty good success rate. Depending on what you do, frozen v. fresh, there isn't too much of a difference in success rates.

@Blitzkreig1 & Freestep: I would love to help start a strong, WGSD working line. Funny you should mention health or temperment associated with the color. I've been told by severak different trainers that Whites are more aggressive, 'dumber', and are deaf or blind. When we first got him, we tried to go to a Puppy Play Class, but they refused to let us join the class because the said that Whites are very aggressive and they were afraid he would attack the other animals. My dog has never shown any aggressiveness towards humans or animals. He is probably the most loving dog I've ever had.

If anything, I would love to show that, WGSDs are just as good as any other color GSD. They are just as friendly, loving, playful, and have the same drive and ability to work that the other dogs of a different color do.


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## carmspack

Shaolin -- breeding , why not allow your breeder ONE very select breeding -- a special female where they are going to keep something back. I thought this was the deal , not having the dog a week at a time for public access or multiple services - just the one "to keep the line".

Whites have a reputation because breeding for a specific colour severly limits the genetics you have access to . Any time you make decisions based on cosmetics or appearance as a priority , then you loose something else, usually more important.
On the other hand lately I have seen some really stable correctly conformed white GSD - without exaggerations or extremes .


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## Shaolin

That's most likely what we are going to do; one, maybe two very selective breeding sessions. As I said in the beginning, I just really want to go into this with all the information I can have. I think I made that statement out of the thought of the long term, not specifically for Finn.


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## Freestep

Shaolin said:


> I am also not sure if I want to do anything without him having a title- more than just CGC.


 You don't know how refreshing it is to hear someone say that.



> You are right, some dogs just don't have it in them, but, and maybe it's just me being the optimist, but I think it's there in every dog, it just has to be accessed in a different way, or it comes out in a different way.


Some dogs really don't have "it" in them, or "it" is so hard to find and bring forward that the law of diminishing returns comes into play. In order for the dog to be trainable by anyone other than an expert, you want "it" to be easily accessable and come out in predictable ways.



> I would love to help start a strong, WGSD working line. Funny you should mention health or temperment associated with the color. I've been told by severak different trainers that Whites are more aggressive, 'dumber', and are deaf or blind.


You may have a bad breeder in your area--if WGSDs are particularly despised by local trainers, there is probably a BYB nearby churning out dogs of very poor temperament. We have that syndrome here with Miniature Poodles.



> If anything, I would love to show that, WGSDs are just as good as any other color GSD. They are just as friendly, loving, playful, and have the same drive and ability to work that the other dogs of a different color do.


Well, actually, the whole point is that they DON'T, generally, have the same drive and ability to work as standard color GSDs. This is partly because the gene pool is rather small. But more importantly, for a long time now, whites have not been selected for working ability, only coat color. As I understand it, this is starting to change and there are a very few breeders who are proving working ability by titling their dogs beyond a CGC. And I understand there are some breeders in Europe who are working their white GSDs in Schutzhund.


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## Shaolin

Freestep said:


> You don't know how refreshing it is to hear someone say that.


If I'm looking to promote the working side of the WGSDs, I wouldn't dream about bringing in an untitled female into the mix. In my line of work, we have a phrase: "If it isn't documented, it didn't happen." Just because people have said that my dog is a great dog, doesn't mean he is until I can put some blue ribbons and some alphabet soup behind his name. I'd happily neuter my dog and destroy all the samples before I let his, as of now, untitled butt into the breeding world.





Freestep said:


> Some dogs really don't have "it" in them, or "it" is so hard to find and bring forward that the law of diminishing returns comes into play. In order for the dog to be trainable by anyone other than an expert, you want "it" to be easily accessable and come out in predictable ways.


I completely understand. We had a girl in our SAR group who brought a dog who just wanted nothing to do with SAR at all. He had absolutely no drive what-so-ever. We all tried to do our part; lots of lovin', praise, and treats to try and help motivate this dog, but there was nothing we could do to motivate that dog. He ended up just becoming an honorary member of the team and that was that.





Freestep said:


> You may have a bad breeder in your area--if WGSDs are particularly despised by local trainers, there is probably a BYB nearby churning out dogs of very poor temperament. We have that syndrome here with Miniature Poodles.


I've heard that from a lot of different trainers and it was present in a lot of online research about the dog. I lived in Pittsburgh when we first got Finn and the trainer stated that she never met a good WGSD and that they were all evil. A trainer in MD told me that whomever trained her told her that Whites were two seconds from killing their owners and that any white in a home with a kid was just asking for the kid to be mauled to death. Even a kennel refused to take him because of the "WGSD will kill you" mentality. I can PM you the different websites that talk about the misconceptions.





Freestep said:


> Well, actually, the whole point is that they DON'T, generally, have the same drive and ability to work as standard color GSDs. This is partly because the gene pool is rather small. But more importantly, for a long time now, whites have not been selected for working ability, only coat color. As I understand it, this is starting to change and there are a very few breeders who are proving working ability by titling their dogs beyond a CGC. And I understand there are some breeders in Europe who are working their white GSDs in Schutzhund.


And I like where that particular trend is going. You have no idea how much it thrills me when Finn does anything he's not supposed to. I was told that, even with the lines in Finn, it was possible that I'd have an uphill battle on my hand. We...well...he potty trained in about 3 weeks. We had a set of sleigh bells on our back door that rang every time we opened the door to let him out. One evening, he did his little warble and nudged the bells. I let him out. Voila! He rings the bells every single time. His first recall, his first SAR test that he passed...I was so proud of him. 

He does things that people have said he's not supposed to do. The fact that we had him around children in ages from 1 month old up to 15 years and he never once looked at the children the wrong way also helps to change the misconceptions.


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## Freestep

Be aware of the fact that the bar has, unfortunately, been set very low for white GSDs. So next to those ill-bred byb whites, any *normal* dog looks good... and your dog looks amazing. Not saying your dog isn't amazing, I'm just saying, look what we are comparing him with. When you can put your dog up there with working lines of standard color, and he still looks competitive, then your dog is amazing.


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## Shaolin

I completely understand. By the way, this was awesome! It gave my husband and I a lot to think about when it comes to breeding now and into the future. This was also what we needed, now that we are (slowly) starting to look for a new puppy. With our girl gone, we would like to bring in a new dog. The goal is a GSD, maybe Black, but we might be moving to an area that isn't GSD friendly (Lots of BSL) and with my back the way it is, I don't have the energy to be on the floor working with a high energy puppy. My hubby is great, but he gets frustrated easily, so it's me working on all the new things while he reinforces the old things.


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