# is my puppy normal?



## Huggytree (Jun 8, 2018)

ive grow up with labs and retrievers as a kid...ive always wanted a German Shepard, so 2 weeks ago we bought one...she is a 14 month Panda Shepard. We bought her from what is probably a questionable breeder...they had multiple litters available...we picked her because she was the only one to come up to us with her tail wagging...all the other pups faced the wall or burred their heads into some furniture(i know we should have walked away, but we didnt)

So, im 2 weeks into this adventure....we have 3 kids (14,12,10), 2 cats....ive separated the house down to 1/2 the 1st floor for the dog, upstairs for the cats(i dont plan to introduce the cats more until she can do stay w/ distractions)...she has tried to chase the cats, she barks at them...they are horrified...but thats not my questions for now..my questions are to verify i have a ''normal'' shepard pup as she is not normal at all to me growing up with labs

she is very gentile with the kids, she doesnt run around the house, she is relaxed with the family....she has been house trained after 2-3 days (2 accidents last week-none this week)..she knows Sit, No, Down.she sort of knows quiet...im working on Stay next week....

what i find strange...she rarely wags her tail...ill get a wag when i get up in the morn for 30 seconds while i greet her....pretty much it.....im used to dogs waging the tail whenever they even look at you. i was at a store where a large pit bull came up to me and the tail never stopped wagging.....

she is scared of everything....she doesnt relax outdoors....indoors she greet new people (kids friends) no issues...outside she gets defensive...she growls and tried to go at them...i hold her muzzle shut and say quiet and pet her to relax her....if another dog is around she goes into her aggressive bark/growling...she has tried to bite other dogs as they walk away from her...she has the same growl with some new people, but has not tried to bite anyone.....every new person or dog i have to be standing over her, making her sit, holding her muzzle shut saying ''quiet' while petting her....and she does relax....on a walk i do this several times and each time she gets better and better with new people and dogs...but she constantly looks backwards at the dog that just past and forwards again at a car or lawn mower....i can see she is 100% alert and her mind is racing

in the car she gets sick...she drools badly and 1/2 the time throws up.....were taking her into the car just to sit 3x a day now to get her used to being in the car...anxiety or is it motion sickness....i dunno...

went to the dog park last night..trying to socialize as much as possible....she had her normal aggressive behavior towards other dogs...at one point someone asked me if my dog was alright?...dogs would come up to her and lick/sniff her...i held her mouth closed while saying quiet as normal.....she did try to snap at other dogs a few times as they walked away...but did get more relaxed with more interaction....then we found another puppy...a larger one....we spent time with them and our dog got used to the other dog...we walked around together...i let the leash extend fully...my dog took the lead, never looked at the other dog..was totally relaxed with him around her....once again she showed no aggression to any person at the dog park, just other dogs.....then another dog came along...she went back into her nervous mode a bit...she sat with me over her while this new dog played with the pup we tagged along with....she watched them interact...her tail was wagging...she seemed like she wanted to join in the playing...so i decided to see what would happen...she was good for a few seconds, but when one of the other dogs jumped up a bit she went into her growling/teeth/biting and i had to pull her back....i felt she was trying to dominate the other dogs? i always stop it immediately...i dont know if she would actually attack the other dogs or is playing or what...i assume she is attacking as i hear the growl

i had several people tell me this is all normal for a shepard......just get her around other dogs as much as possible...i knew she would not be a lab....but i didnt know she would be this different...she is 100% guard dog....

any advice?

we plan to take her to the dog park weekly..considering classes....im hoping being around other dogs daily on walks and weekly at the dog park will eventually get her more friendly to other dogs...

on a side note: as a kid my dad brought home a coyote pup..eyes not even open yet...we raised it for 12 months and got rid of it...the german shepard reminds me more of my pet coyote than of my pet labs....


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

14 months?


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## hoytn (Oct 1, 2017)

Huggytree said:


> what i find strange...she rarely wags her tail...ill get a wag when i get up in the morn for 30 seconds while i greet her....pretty much it.....im used to dogs waging the tail whenever they even look at you. i was at a store where a large pit bull came up to me and the tail never stopped wagging.....
> 
> she is scared of everything....she doesnt relax outdoors....indoors she greet new people (kids friends) no issues...outside she gets defensive...she growls and tried to go at them...i hold her muzzle shut and say quiet and pet her to relax her....if another dog is around she goes into her aggressive bark/growling...she has tried to bite other dogs as they walk away from her...she has the same growl with some new people, but has not tried to bite anyone.....every new person or dog i have to be standing over her, making her sit, holding her muzzle shut saying ''quiet' while petting her....and she does relax....on a walk i do this several times and each time she gets better and better with new people and dogs...but she constantly looks backwards at the dog that just past and forwards again at a car or lawn mower....i can see she is 100% alert and her mind is racing
> 
> ...


I can say first you have a timid and low confidence dog. I have a golden retriever that is fearful of almost everything and what you are explaining is almost to a tea what she is, at 14 months she should be a little timid because of a new place but not that timid. Not to be a negative Nancy but those things you listed are not normal for well socialized, temperament dog. Luna our German shepherd puppy is 100% different then our golden, Luna will go for walks and doesn't run away from every little thing whens he does get scared (mind you she is 3 month old) if i stay put she gets over it and moves on. When i did this with Angel at 3 months she was to scared to go for walks scared of cars, others dog, loud noise (except thunder go figure or gun shots). I honestly wish you the best luck and i hope i am 100% wrong.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

This is a tough one, but I'll try...

You bought your puppy, who is very pretty BTW, from a questionable breeder, and all her littermates stared at the far wall when you met them and were not interested in interacting with you at all...and you're asking if your puppy's behavior is normal? In short, yes. Totally normal and expected given the info you've shared. Your puppy is not 100% guard dog, as you put it, but 100% fearful and weak nerved. Not the end of the world, but yes, it is normal and to be expected given what you saw when you looked at the litter. It's not uncommon for GSD puppies to go through some on leash reactivity toward other dogs, but the hyper vigilance and nervousness are not something you will see in a more confident GSD puppy. 

For me it's not about whether or not a puppy got scared by something, they all have some stuff they are unsure about. It's more about how quickly they recover from that. Typically, a puppy that is hyper vigilant is just plain scared! So take socialization slowly. Let your puppy see new things, and other dogs, at a distance she's comfortable with. Don't rush her to "get over it" because that won't speed the process, and it could do long lasting damage to your puppy's confidence!

So, take it slow, learn what scares her and what she's okay with, and expose her to things (which is what socialization is all about) slowly and in a way she's both able to handle and is comfortable with - which, by the way, means no more dog parks. Let her just observe from a distance for now, and teach her easy things that will help build her confidence...sit, down, easy, wait etc. Play with her often, and always let her win! Praise her profusely whenever she does stuff you like, whether it's command driven or not! Make her feel loved and secure...and slowly, slowly, slowly introduce her to new things. She could grow up to be very confident and a great companion! Welcome to the forum!


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## Suzy25 (Mar 3, 2016)

I'm going to be 100% upfront, blunt, and honest with you, my intention is not to be rude but to help you come to terms with the situation you are in

You claim to have always wanted a shepherd, but very clearly haven't done enough research, if any at all.(considering you even went and looked at a panda breeder, and are spelling it shepard) Its great you are coming here for help, hopefully you get great ideas and can get some answers. 
1. you should have never gone to even see that breeder, panda is a cool colour to see, but anyone purposely breeding them you should have stayed far away from, should have never gone to see those puppies. you were basically asking for behavioural and health issues. SO in the future, do a little more research on breeders before committing to 10-15 years with a dog. 

Anywho the one thing you need to do ASAP is to get a trainer who is experienced with german shepherds and other working breed dogs (not pet smart, or local trainer that has successfully trained a few shepherds, a REAL working dog trainer or a trainer with great success with behavioural issues. If you say your approx location, im sure people on here can recommend a few. 

you have a fearful and timid dog by the sounds of it, who isn't good with other dogs, PLEASE do NOT take it to a dog park, throwing a dog into a group of unfamiliar dogs, who might have behavioural issues themselves is only going to make everything worse. she needs to be taught how to behave around other dogs, while on a leash, walking around them, learning how to ignore other dogs, only have her interact with stable dogs that you know "friends or family" and limit interaction, train them around each other, keep them apart, (you can tether each dog to a separate person) she needs to learn how to ignore, and act appropriately around other animals and humans, throwing her into a dog park, even with only a couple of few dogs will not help at all. also dont let her meet other dogs while on walks. 

also, stop holding her mouth closed, that is NOT a good idea and I don't know what you are even trying to accomplish with that. 

a few things you should start right away, other than getting trainer, is relaxation games and confidence games.
relaxing- train "place", do it inside and outside, wait until she is relaxed fully into it,(once she knows the command) then calmly reward and let her off, you can also tether her to your person and just sit outside and chill, rewarding when she relaxes. 
confidence- tricks, jumping onto difference surfaces and heights, never forcing her, making sure she does it on her own, when she starts getting more and more confident start doing unstable surfaces and such
Make sure that you are never rewarding for her being scared, never baby talking, petting, rewarding etc.. when she is in a very timid or flat out scared state dont feel like you have to "comfort" her like you would with a child, that just rewards her behaviour and shows her that you like the timid behaviour. when he is afraid of something take her away from it, dont force her, then slowly start getting closer again, reward for any good confident behaviour and basically ignore the timid behaviour. 
Basically no, this really isn't normal 14 month old young dog behaviour and is probably from a mix of bad genetics and improper socialization as a young dog)

To have he as a perfect member of your family one day you will need to get a trainer for sure, group training classes with a good trainer is a must, and for particular behaviours like aggression towards children outside and dogs, (which is just her fear and insecurity coming out as aggression most likely, since she is timid, but keep in mind im not a trainer and havent met her) you might want private sessions. so basically, get a trainer, build your relationship with her, do some good relax and confidence building sessions and games, every dog is different so take what i said with a grain of salt, as a good starting block, and build and modify it to your pups needs. Good Luck! 

(moderators if you felt anything i said was unneeded, harsh, or anything go ahead and edit whatever you feel is needed) (i'm quite tired right now but wanted to possibly help the OP out)


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

The dog park is definitely not helping your puppy. I'd scratch that immediately.

Holding her mouth shut and forcing her into meetings with lots of random strangers and strange dogs will lead to more fear, more problems. 

Besides the stress, if she's 14 weeks old, she probably is not fully vaccinated. 

A puppy class with a good, observant trainer can help her build confidence, and help you learn to work with her as a team. If you're looking for a referral, there are a handful of options in your area..... 'For Pet's Sake' in Mukwonago has several classes that are designed for shy or reactive dogs. Give them a call, explain the general behavior you are seeing, ask to sit in and observe a class without your puppy present, see if their course offerings may be right for you.


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## hoytn (Oct 1, 2017)

Here is what I did with Angel, first whole week was her time to get a handle on things, then I put a collar on her, you would be shocked how many dogs lose it with a collar, after a full day of the collar and nothing else add the leash, let her chew it, bite it and realize that it isnt going to hurt her. All while doing this make everything fun for her. It will take a massive amount of patience. I also agree building her confidence by training. Angel might not go for walks but her focus when training is better then most well temperaments dogs she thrives off the training. If Angel wasn't timid and fearful she easily would have already had several obedience titles. Take your time and do baby steps.


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

Huggytree said:


> So, im 2 weeks into this adventure....we have 3 kids (14,12,10), 2 cats....ive separated the house down to 1/2 the 1st floor for the dog, upstairs for the cats


OP, I agree with _almost _everything previous posters have written about that very cute puppy. But, I'm going to take things a step further and encourage you to return that puppy to the 'breeder' ASAP. I realize that even the idea of returning the puppy may be heartbreaking, but consider the issues highlighted in your post. First, you're only two weeks in and concerned by what you've already seen. Please don't ignore those red flags. Raising well-bred, stable puppies is hard work. Raising puppies that come with temperament/behavioral challenges, while raising children and managing a family, is an almost impossible task IMO.

Second, it's unclear whether your puppy's temperament and behavior are shaped by poor genetics, the 'breeder's' poor management or some unholy interaction between the two. That an entire litter apparently shows signs of shyness, etc. is really disturbing --- not surprising particularly, but disturbing nonetheless. Yes, one might (no guarantees), with a lot of effort, improve the puppy's eventual outcome, but that outcome may be far afield from what you and your family want in a family dog --- especially a family with young children. 

Third, you have what sounds to be a very busy household, with a lot of demands on your time and management skills. I doubt that yours is the best placement for this (or any other) shy and possibly unstable dog --- no matter how much you and your family love it. You can't effectively train and manage behavior by simply 'loving' the dog out of it. It takes time (maybe years) and commitment. Can you honestly say that you have the experience, time (given your family's needs) and day-to-day commitment that may be required?

Fourth, the well-intentioned things you've attempted so far (e.g., the dog park) have likely deepened the problems you have and are likely to continue to encounter with this puppy. That's not a good scenario IMO. Fifth, and with all due respect, it reads as though you don't yet have the skills and experience to raise and _manage _the multiple challenges that a puppy like this can present --- and we haven't even touched on the health problems that you're likely to encounter with a dog as poorly bred (by virtue of the emphasis on color) as this pup seems to be. As I said before, you can't 'love' problems away. 

So, my advice is to return the puppy to the breeder ASAP. Treat this as the educational experience that it is and take the time to find right puppy/dog for your family. One that will make you laugh and sigh with pleasure and not flinch in trepidation. 

Good luck,


Aly


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I have nothing to add other than to agree with everything Suzy and Aly said. 

You have a fearful puppy and need professional help. If not, then return the puppy.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

I have 8 years with a fearful dog. If the 'breeder' will take the pup back, return him even if you lose whatever money you paid for the dog. I promise you --- you will spend that plus much more on behavior training in hopes of having a safe dog around your kids and still possibly/probably have a dog you can't trust.


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## hoytn (Oct 1, 2017)

I also have to agree with returning i did not bring it up because it was not my place but that ship sailed lol. Angel not only has temperament issues but after 6 months i noticed a knocking sound and feeling from her hip and long behold she had HD, because of her small size and young age we did TPO total cost 3k. It is a cry shame people breed dogs that should not be breed but they do. returning the dog will hurt and be upsetting because the kids more then likely got attached to the dog but in the long run it is the best thing for you and your family.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Fearful dogs are hard. It's a change of lifestyle to manage them. If you are willing to spend the money on training, isolate her if need be, be her advocate and block people/dogs if she's fearful of them...then carry on. But let me say, from experience, fearful dogs are exhausting. I didn't realize how much until I had a stable dog.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

you have had some excellent advice from Suzy and Aly.

I am going to add some things to hopefully give pause for thought to some other potential GSD puppy buyers.

you have made your bed.

question - did you deliberately seek out the "Panda" . 
why? when you don't know the breed - when you expect and spend a lot of emotional energy on why 
your pup doesn't act like the happy drunk at the party -- wagging the tail all the time . That is simply not
GSD . Dignified , look of eagles -- not wear heart on sleeve. 
You don't the breed . You can not compare the experience to the labrador and golden retrievers that you have had and experienced over the years.

did you pay a premium for the Panda colour? Can we ask what you did pay? 

how did the "breeder" sorry , puppy mill operator , describe this particular litter?
did they make any claims?

You bought from a place that even you as a newbie had misgivings about . You said
" We bought her from what is probably a questionable breeder...they had multiple litters available."

there is no probably about it . Several litters -- RED FLAG . They did not even have the care and respect for what they had produced already . They had a litter, probably the entire litter still with them at 12 weeks of age .
They probably had been passed over by other potential buyers because of the extreme , yes , extreme lack of normal puppy social behaviour.

I have yet to see a Panda that was even close to robust GSD temperament . There were several that I encountered on hikes on the Lake Ontario board walk and trails - and in various specialty show which featured "rare" breed , or at events where I participated as a vendor - pet expos etc . So I have seen my fair share.

So genetics . And then to top it off it sounds like these pups were sorely under socialized , if they had any contact at all , with the breeder.

so how did those pups interact with the breeder? 

your description "all the other pups faced the wall or burred their heads into some furniture" reminds me so
much of one of the experiments written about in the Pfaffenberger book on dog behaviour siting the studies of
Fuller and Scott Genetics and the Scocial Behaviour of Dgos . In that book there was one poor soul , who looked some dejected , dog meeting with his executioner -- trying his best to be absorbed by the wall - to disappear .

that sounds like those pups -- their avoidance so great they shut out the world - want to disappear. 

being familiar with those studies my opinion, would that there is little chance for change for your female and non for the others , and that the whole lot of them will have difficult lives - if .

you can expect this to also have physical , health repercussions.

People need to stop enabling these operations to exist
the dogs pay the price

PART TWO next


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

you have a young and active household .

you have 3 kids . They are at the age where 3 of them are yours and the other 5 or six in the house
are friends . They come and they go. The door may as well be on hinges.

Your pup is still young and you have only had two or three weeks of vigilant introductions of your
guests to your pup who is displaying apprehension . 
Don't stand over and clamp the muzzle . That makes things worse. Not only is the visitor a concern , you
are making the experience more unpleasant , over bearing and dominating . counter productive .


your management will have to be so perfect to avoid an encounter with an expressive , uninhibited kid-friend calling on your kids. That translates to unpredictable to your dogs nervy , fearful , dog. Fearful dogs need
very stable predictable lives . They tend to be poor reads and see threat all around .

no trainer is going to change things -- if you go thrat route contact your local Vet university and ask specifically for a behaviourial specialist . The University of Guelph in Ontario does make recommendations.
I am sure you have an equivalent where you are or one of the many resourceful members of the forum can direct to one. 
I would not go to a trainer with GSD familiarity or sport trainging. This is outside of breed issues . 
"Breed" has little to do with the problem.

yes it will cost you $$$.

the other option is to take your lumps and return the dog. 

sorry for that .

In my opinion I think it best that you stick with the happy happy dogs -- the labs and golden retriever type .


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

I haven't read all this but she does look like a raccoon. I have never seen a Panda.


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## Huggytree (Jun 8, 2018)

new report:

she has improved greatly from her 1 visit to the dog park....when we walked past the neighborhood dogs on our nightly walk she was 10x better...she didnt even growl or bark...still nervous, but a huge change

today we went back to the park again....she was still nervous..i did my normal standing over her with my hand on her mouth....she was improved...we were talking to a group of owners who's dogs were playing and they told me to let my dog off the leash...they felt the issue was me being overly sensitive....they were right...group of 7 dogs and my dog ran right up, no issues...played for 30 minutes until she was pooped out....they explained it was normal behavior for a new pup and felt being trapped on a leash while other dogs sniffer her 2-4 a time made her feel trapped? once free she was an amazing dog.....

tail wagging the whole time..

im not returning her....i doubt thats an option...ive learned to spend more time picking a breeder and not just taking whats available...i paid $1,000 for her...the asking price was $1,400....i did not pay extra for a panda...i did not seek out a panda...i wanted a more normal color'd Shepard, but took the friendliest dog they had......she was the runt.....

on our way out of the dog park with the dog on the leash she ran into other dogs and i was no longer scared of her biting them...she just need socialization.....im amazed how a few interactions has changed her...

she still throws up in the car though...not fun


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Oh dear. I hope she does not become a fear biter.


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## hoytn (Oct 1, 2017)

Do not hold her muzzle, let her be with that. I honestly hope we are all wrong and she turns out to be great.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Why bother coming to ask for advice.... Then not taking the advice???


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

Cant stand dog parks, many other options for socializing. Slow and steady is the key, everything positive to build on.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Huggytree said:


> she still throws up in the car though...not fun


If she's in a crate while in the car try covering it with a sheet until she gets a little older.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I agree that pandas are not something people ought to be breeding on purpose and that the behavior of the littermates should have had you running for the hills. 

I was looking at a litter of pups once. I bought one. And I was going to pick the boy with both ears up, but he ducked under a table, and l literally changed my point, mid-swing to the other dog-pup. There was at least two bitch-pups, because the breeder kept one. A few weeks later, I saw the other dog-pup -- looked so much like him that I asked. Name was Chandler, and he was skittish. The man said his neighbor bought the other bitch-pup and she was skittish too. People say that if you have a temperament problem, it is there in the whole litter. 

Well, I dunno. Rushie became a service dog. I put him through the CGC many times -- he finished classes bitches started, but when they went into heat, I would sub him in. I titled him. I had him break a stay in the obedience ring, and that night we did stays. I messed him up for stays the next day, so he did not have a rock-solid temperament. But by the time he was 4 years old, he was a therapy dog and seemed quite solid in all situations. I sold him to the Judge as a pet, but he made a service dog out of him. 

He was a great dog. Not good with resident dogs. But could be around dogs at shows, vets, training no problem. I got him back when the judge died. I gave him to my contractor where he spent his remaining years. He bit a drunk lady that attacked my contractor, and a boy that was trespassing in his yard. I was actually shocked, because he was very gentle with my nieces and such. But my contractor said that he was glad he bit, lives in a rough neighborhood. No problem with 90+ year old family members, cats, or people welcomed by the owners. 

One point is that a true-runt is significantly smaller than the rest at birth and generally has some health issues. When they survive, they are often more forward than the other pups because they have to be more aggressive to maintain their portion of the life-sustaining substances and attention. 

Shepherds -- herds, remember this is a *herd*ing dog, well, they aren't generally the best at dog parks. Think about your coyote or wolves. They work well within established packs. But what about outsiders? Usually outsiders are fought with. Males for territory, females are also often driven off or killed, one breeding bitch is enough in a pack. Sometimes adolescent bitches are tolerated because they are middle of the road pups, they will hunt, etc, but they were raised by the head bitch. Omega pups have a place as well. But an omega pup that is found in a pack's territory will probably be fought and possibly killed. 

Dogs are not children. They should not be expected to mingle with a different pack of comrades all the time. Always deciding who is the top dog. If you're into showing, you don't want your dogs to see other dogs and think it is play time. If you are not, you don't want to take your dog to the vet and the dog think it is time to play with some other dog there that may have God knows what. For a GSD, your best response to other dogs (dogs outside your pack) is supreme disinterestedness. "Oh, there's a dog, so?" 

Some dog breeds pack well, they are bred to run as packs. fox hounds, other hounds. Some dogs have been bred away from aggressiveness, bird dogs: labs, goldens, pointers, setters. They may be fine in a dog park. Some breeds should not be permitted in a dog park, because it is in their breeding that they be aggressive to other critters. Chows, presa canarios, akitas, an any number of other dog breeds that can do a lot of damage very quick. Shepherds are not bred to attack other dogs specifically, but as sheep-herding dogs, they have to have protection qualities and prey drive. They have to go after predators, wolves, coyotes, dogs -- anything that could do damage to the sheep, cows, ducks, whatever the farm holds. 

They are a different creature from a retriever or a setter or a hound dog. They pack well within those they live with usually. They can play with outside dogs -- dogs outside of their pack, especially if the dog sees an individual dog often, possibly often while yet a puppy. But it is a bit much to ask a shepherd dog to be constantly running around with a variety of other dogs. But, they are a versatile breed, and some folks have placed the square peg in the round hole and made it work. 

I think that it is very possible that this pup will have some temperament issues considering the behavior of the litter which is more extreme than any I've heard of. The ONLY reason I do not suggest returning the puppy, is because it needs a home too. If YOU think it will be fine with your kids, and with you, then you have made that decision. 

One note about socialization. Especially with a dog with a question mark for early socialization/temperament, it is imperative for you to have ONLY positive and non-overwhelming experiences for the next month or so. It is much more important than how many experiences. In fact the sheer number of experiences can be overwhelming to a puppy. 1 new person, place or thing is PLENTY in a day. Taking a pup out 2-3 times in a week is plenty. Always leave BEFORE your dog is tired. Get out of situations BEFORE they become situations. 

Down the line when the trust is 100% and dog has some confidence in himself it won't be as important. But now, that dog needs to know you will protect him -- he shouldn't be showing you any protection at this point. He is a BABY.


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## Huggytree (Jun 8, 2018)

Whiteshepherds said:


> If she's in a crate while in the car try covering it with a sheet until she gets a little older.


family vehicle is a 4 door pickup..so she sits across the back seat on the kids laps....on a blanket....ive read this is not uncommon....were working on it....3x a day for 15 mins were putting her in the truck....not sure if its motion sickness or stress or what

were keeping her...todays experience at the dog park was remarkable and i realized the problem was in my head more than hers....

i want my dog to want to be around other dogs and people....wag her tail and be excited to be around others...once a week to the dog park minimum....she meets new people/dogs nightly on our neighborhood walk also....she has been great with my kids and their friends...no aggression to anyone in our home....only a growl on the street while walking...which after being around more people is improving noticeably...


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## Huggytree (Jun 8, 2018)

Pytheis said:


> Why bother coming to ask for advice.... Then not taking the advice???


problem appears to be fixing itself

its been a day since i asked for advice...im here...reading


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Huggytree said:


> *i want my dog to want to be around other dogs and people....wag her tail and be excited to be around others...once a week to the dog park minimum.*...she meets new people/dogs nightly on our neighborhood walk also....she has been great with my kids and their friends...no aggression to anyone in our home....only a growl on the street while walking...which after being around more people is improving noticeably...


Well, Whoo Hoo!!! Let us know how that works out.


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

Huggytree said:


> i want my dog to want to be around other dogs and people....wag her tail and be excited to be around others...once a week to the dog park minimum....she meets new people/dogs nightly on our neighborhood walk also....she has been great with my kids and their friends...no aggression to anyone in our home....only a growl on the street while walking...which after being around more people is improving noticeably...


That's a perfectly reasonable desire to have for a family dog, Huggytree. The problem is that the _AKC Standard describes a very different animal than you say you want. _

AKC Standard: 

_The breed has a distinct personality marked by direct and fearless, but not hostile, expression, self-confidence and *a certain aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships*. The dog must be approachable, *quietly standing its ground and showing confidence and willingness to meet overtures without itself making them*._ [bolding mine].

Even if the cards were stacked in your favor (i.e., the puppy was a stable, well-bred exemplar), _it still wouldn't match what you say you want._ That the cards seemed far from stacked in your favor just sharpens the discrepancy (perhaps dangerously) between what you say you want and what you appear to have. Moreover, when we factor in the questionable choices made thus far in handling a fearful, undersocialized puppy, we have a scenario that seems unlikely to result in good outcomes. 

But, perhaps I'm missing something here. Why the insistence on keeping this puppy given the feedback you've gotten so far?

Aly


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## misfits (Jan 13, 2011)

So basically, you don't wnt a German shepherd, you just want a lab that looks like a german shepherd?


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

I too wanted a dog that was happy to see people and other dogs. She does like dogs but she wants NOTHING to do with people. On walks people kneel down and “coo” her and she doesn’t even look their way. At the park or beach people call her over and she never goves them the time of day. I have grown to love the aloofness. I do not want my dog seeking attention from strangers. If this is who your puppy is don’t force it. Let them be who they are. I learned that the hard way, but I’m so glad I realized that my dog just wants nothing to do with strangers.


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

misfits said:


> So basically, you don't wnt a German shepherd, you just want a lab that looks like a german shepherd?


seems to be a common thing now days. I love the fact that I can go to a crowded dog beach and the only thing my dog wants to do is play fetch with me! She loves dogs but would rather engage with me. Ya been beautiful watching her mature and become more and more loyal.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

OP, this sounds 100% similar to the following personal story of mine.About 30 years ago, before I knew what I know now, I took a Malinois home from a farm at 7 weeks old. She was the only pup that didn't flee when I showed up so I thought I was OK by taking her home. Well, a few months later she became fear aggressive and it escalated immediately after being spayed at 6 months of age. She attacked a small dog and became fear-aggressive to the neighborhood kids. I had her temperament evaluated by a leading behaviorist and he recommended to put her down. But after several days on the phone (pre-internet era) I found a home that was safe for her and others. During that episode I learned a whole lot. Like Selzer mentioned; look at the entire litter, not just at one pup.
She is cute but I keep my fingers crossed. You have gotten good advice, take it seriously. Last but not least; do not spay her so she will keep her female hormones.
One more thing: this is not just in your head but especially in hers.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

misfits said:


> So basically, you don't wnt a German shepherd, you just want a lab that looks like a german shepherd?



yeah , even this I don't understand . After nearly 40 years in GSD my experience is that people were and still are sceptical of a GSD being pure bred if it was a sable or if it is a solid black.
I recall a young male that I was taking aourd to the shops as part of the big-world socialisingl.In the line up the person behnd me complimented me on the dog , about 4 months of age and asked me what is it - what breed.
This was a dark sable youngster , GSD. I told him that there were sable , black and tan and black.

But I could hear the ladies behind him saying " boy did she get taken " lol.

my experience is that people who want to show off a GSD and are new to the breed love and black and tan because it is sort of the signature colour (not really b!!) . No explanation needed . Instant recognition. No defending the dog as a pure bred 

very curious that a person would choose the colour PANDA , the colour least likely to be identified as a GSD.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

misfits said:


> So basically, you don't wnt a German shepherd, you just want a lab that looks like a german shepherd?


A lot of shelters and rescues are pushing the "it's all in how you raise and train them" myth, anything to get a dog into a home. Getting the dog into the right home doesn't matter to them. It has become a pervasive theme in all breed dog forums, articles, etc., with even some popular trainers on board.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

So your initial question, is my puppy normal? I dislike the word normal applied to any living thing. Is she typical of a German Shepherd puppy? No. Is she within breed standard? No. Is she typical of a well bred, well cared for pup of any breed? No. 
Is she what I would expect from a puppy farm? Yes. 
I would guess from the pictures that she is 14 weeks, not 14 months. And at 14 weeks a stable puppy of any breed should be curious, rambunctious, devilish and friendly. ANY puppy should be exploring, chewing, barking, chasing, biting and pouncing. That young they should have no fear, because there is no reason to fear. So a litter cowering tells me everything about the dam. And make NO mistake, temperament relies almost entirely on the dam. Wary puppies are one thing, wary keeps pups alive. Cowering and avoidance are issues. 
Now you have the dog. Fine, she deserves a home just as any other. Holding her mouth shut is the equivalent of pinning her. Short term it will certainly stop the behavior, long term it will build frustration and resentment. You picked a breed of dog that is completely at odds with what you want, that WILL be an issue down the road.
A stable, properly socialized GSD may get along at a dog park, a nervy, poorly bred one will not. You are playing with fire and putting other peoples dogs at risk without their consent to do so. My suspicion is that somewhere around a year old she is going to change her tune.
My very stable old female had no problem meeting strange people, but I suspected over the years that she did it to alleviate my stress in social situations. And she loved, loved, loved children. All children. So clearly some individuals are more social then others.
I live with a fearful, aggressive dog who is friendly and sweet to invited guests, weirdly environmentally stable and generally a treasure to live with. Right up until we need to go out in public. In public we stay away from people and animals, and keep her muzzled to prevent misunderstandings. And this dog went absolutely everywhere I went from 3 weeks old, she met dogs, kids, people, reptiles and was in and out of stores, offices and vehicles. 
So, if you are still paying attention, work on the things others have mentioned. Let her learn that things are not scary on her own, from safe distances and respect the fact that she may not be very social. Stop pushing and forcing. If you had a child who hated soccer but you wanted her to play soccer would you force her or accept the fact that she wanted to drive dragsters instead? Your dog needs to display appropriate manners with the general public, that is a must. Beyond that the choice is not yours. You CAN'T make her be something she isn't.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

carmspack said:


> yeah , even this I don't understand . After nearly 40 years in GSD my experience is that people were and still are sceptical of a GSD being pure bred if it was a sable or if it is a solid black.
> I recall a young male that I was taking aourd to the shops as part of the big-world socialisingl.In the line up the person behnd me complimented me on the dog , about 4 months of age and asked me what is it - what breed.
> This was a dark sable youngster , GSD. I told him that there were sable , black and tan and black.
> 
> ...


Of course, some of us just have a preference for black and brown German Shepherds. You shouldn't have to defend your liking for sable or black or even white dogs, and we should not have to defend our liking for black and brown dogs. It is a preference.


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## hoytn (Oct 1, 2017)

Sabis mom said:


> I would guess from the pictures that she is 14 weeks, not 14 months. And at 14 weeks a stable puppy of any breed should be curious, rambunctious, devilish and friendly. ANY puppy should be exploring, chewing, barking, chasing, biting and pouncing.


Luna is just over 3 months and 26 lbs, she is literally everything you noted, devilish is a very good description of her.


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## Teresa (May 2, 2012)

Suzy25. I thought your response was excellent and informative, not at all offensive. I learned something from it as well for my own German. Thank you!


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## Annageckos (Jun 2, 2018)

Huggytree said:


> family vehicle is a 4 door pickup..so she sits across the back seat on the kids laps....on a blanket....ive read this is not uncommon....were working on it....3x a day for 15 mins were putting her in the truck....not sure if its motion sickness or stress or what
> 
> were keeping her...todays experience at the dog park was remarkable and i realized the problem was in my head more than hers....
> 
> i want my dog to want to be around other dogs and people....wag her tail and be excited to be around others...once a week to the dog park minimum....she meets new people/dogs nightly on our neighborhood walk also....she has been great with my kids and their friends...no aggression to anyone in our home....only a growl on the street while walking...which after being around more people is improving noticeably...


You really can't make her like to be around other dogs, either she does or doesn't. I had a GSD who passed a few years ago, she was a puppy mill dog so didn't have all the typical GSD traits. But she was still a GSD. What I mean is that as she got older she cared less and less to be around strange dogs and people. Both she would ignore. Sometimes she would give a little growl to a dog, but I stopped putting her in those situations. She was very loving to family both the people and dogs that she saw on a fairly regular basis. I did take her to a dog park along with the two boys, neither of them where GSD. But like I said above, stopped when it was clear she wanted nothing to do with those other dogs. It would have been unfair to her to bring her and possibly dangerous though she never was aggressive with other animals. I guess what I am trying to say is that you can not make your dog something she is not. She may be fine with the dog park now but don't be surprised that as she matures she doesn't enjoy it anymore.


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## clipke (Nov 14, 2017)

Something that was recommended to me by a YouTuber by the name of German Shepherd Man, was to buy a flirt pole and have my dog use it at the park around other dogs. It built his confidence back up to the point where his temperament is very protection dog like. He's still young so he's got a ways to go, but you should give it a try. He sees the flirt pole as his property on a neutral territory so he feels the need to protect and guard it. Since your dog is smaller, I suggest finding a dog park with separate areas for different sized dogs in order to prevent a larger dog from bullying your dog and taking his flirt pole.

For clarification this is to build confidence, not aggressiveness.


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