# Getting a high-quality import dog.



## Wolfheart

Hello everyone!

My name is Angel, I'm currently a student in Animal Care as well as a part-time kennel attendant. I have spent the last 5 years researching everything possible about dogs as well as the German Shepherd breed. I want to be a small, home-based breeder of working-line German Shepherds.

I would really like to import a male from outside North America that will have an excellent pedigree with a line strong in Schutzhund. The only problem is that I have NO idea where to start looking. 

If somebody has imported a pup or stud from outside of North America, could you please outline the process for me? I'd really appreciate any advice or information on how to go about importing a dog. Any suggestions or recommendations as far as WHERE to get the dog?

Thank you so much in advance.

~ Angel


----------



## BlackGSD

What's wrong with dogs bred in North America?


----------



## Amaruq

There are some excellent breeders here in NA of the type of dog you are looking for. I can think of about 6 or 7 I would recommend off the top of my head. 

There is nothing against importing but when you add in the shipping and the fact that most European Breeders do NOT have any warrantees on health, temperament or working ability. You get what they send you. Not all are like this but...... personally I would rather buy a pup in the States (or Canada) from a breeder that are more prone to develop a long term relationship with you. Someone that you can go to when you are ready to breed/whelp/raise your first litter, etc. 

My biggest issue right now are there are several breeders I would LOVE to get a pup from but I can't get them all at once.


----------



## BlackGSD

There is also the really REAL risk of getting WAY more (or less) dog than you bargained for if importing an adult.

I know of more than one person that has imported an adult and has gotten a dog that they can NOT handle. And these are experienced handlers.


----------



## Liesje

I am unclear on the goal - would you be buying and adult, titled stud to use in your own breeding program? To compete with? To stud out to other breeders?

If you are not already in a good SchH club I would start there. Most good clubs have WL breeders or people who have been competing for decades and know good WL breeders. They can point you in the right direction.


----------



## Chris Wild

I don't think importing a stud dog would be the ideal way to get started if your goal is to become a working line hobby breeder.

First, breeding programs are based on females. There are many nice, qualified studs available to choose from to find the right match for a bitch. For this reason many breeders don't even keep their own studs. They reserve their time and space and energy for those important females, and then carefully select from outside studs for each breeding.

Imported, titled adults are very expensive. A proven stud of high quality will be almost impossible to pry out of the hands of a European, and if you do you will be paying an ungodly amount of money for that dog. And then you've still got to get a bitch if you want to be a breeder, not just a stud owner, and no one male, no matter how wonderful, is a perfect mate for every female. So what if you get a bitch that isn't a good cross for that stud you bought? 

IMO, the best breeders are those who spend years studying the breed, including working and training and titling dogs, before they breed. In that vein, my recommendation would be to find a good young dog, probably a female, and get involved in training. Then once she is mature, titled, and ready to breed you'll have a much more in depth knowledge and experience of working dogs to help guide your breeding decisions.

Importing a titled, proven broodbitch can be a great way to jump start into breeding, but it doesn't bring with it the wealth of knowledge and experience that can be gained through working a dog to that level of acomplishment yourself.


----------



## JKlatsky

Nevermind.


ETA- Exactly what Chris said. Only she said it better...


----------



## Barb E

Nice post Chris - as always.

When are you going to write that book?


----------



## BlackGSD

> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> 
> 
> 
> Importing a titled, proven broodbitch can be a great way to jump start into breeding,...


And it can also be an expensive "lesson". (IN a BAD way.)

I know of more than a couple of folks that have spent a good deal of money on importing a titled broodbitch, only to have nothing but problems and heartbreak along the way. 

I know someone that recently imported a bred female. Ended up with a c-section and 1 dead puppy. She then bred her to her male, and again got 1 puppy.(again via c-section) But this one lived.


----------



## Wolfheart

Okay, that makes perfect sense. I was planning on starting with a male and female.

Any recommendations for North American breeders?


----------



## Chris Wild

My advice again, start with a female. 

Forget the male. Easier, cheaper, and in most cases better breeding to select the ideal match from the many studs available, once you have a better idea of what sort of dog will be a good match for her, than to get a male yourself. And again, there is no way for you to ensure that any male or female you were to purchase would be good mates for each other, no matter how great they may be themselves.

Take that female and work her, live with her, get to know her. Let others with more experience get to know her a bit and give their opinion. As you work her, keep your eyes open to other dogs you encounter as this will help you learn more about what traits you value and don't like and what makes a good working dog. All of this is much better learned first hand, through experience. 

During this time study pedigrees and bloodlines, and find a mentor in breeding who can help you learn about the ins and outs of breeding. As you work her, you will glean an understanding of how she measures up and be able to determine if she is worthy of breeding and represents the sort of dog you want to breed. You'll also become familiar with her strengths and weaknesses, then when she is ready and you are ready, find the best stud you can, one with a complimentary pedigree and characteristics, and who will help enhance her strengths and compensate for her weaknesses, and likewise she will do the same.

Do those things, and you'll be well on your way to becoming a great breeder.


----------



## Wildtim

What hasn't been mentioned except in passing is that the kind of stud dog the OP is talking about is worth a lot, like thousands. Not worth thousands but you can have it for three low payments of $19.95, but actually worth a lot of money. Like mortgage the house and sell the kids into slavery kind of money. 

The only way a stud is ever actually a valuable commodity for someone to buy when it is already accomplished is if they have the ability to campaign it, show it off, nationally and internationally earning good scores and generating the kind of interest that makes lots and lots of people willing to breed to it and buy it's progeny.


----------



## Amaruq

> Originally Posted By: Alpha WolfOkay, that makes perfect sense. I was planning on starting with a male and female.
> 
> Any recommendations for North American breeders?


Vom Landholz in Florida
Wildhaus in MI
I know I will butcher Lisa Clarks kennel name 
Zu Truen Haden MI
Rokanhaus in CT ?
Ann Kent in CA
Triton Kennels in IL

Off the top of my head.


----------



## Liesje

In addition, several people have recommended Bill Kulla and Nate Harves to me.


----------



## Castlemaid

Stay away from a working line breeder in my general area. I can PM you for details if you are curious. 

Pay attention to the advice that Chris and Tim Wild are giving. 

Look at the websites of the working-line breeders reccommended by board members - see any similarities in how they operate? You should strive to be the same kind of breeder. 

Buying two dogs and mating them does not make one a breeder, merely a puppy producer. 

Here is an example of how things can turn out if you buy dogs and mate them without years of knowing what you are mating:

Based on the above breeder in my general area: don't know the breeder, but we have two dogs from this breeder in our Schutzhund club:

Breeder buys and imports SchH III titled dogs with very good pedigrees. Male cost 10,000 $ ? 

Does one mating, three pups - sells the two males to "pet" owners, keeps the female back for future breeding. 

One male turns out to be extremely dominant, always looking for a fight. Owner joins Schutzhund club to get help in directing the dog's aggression into appropriate outlets. Dog has recently been diagnosed with severe HD.

Other male is weak nerved. Afraid of people, afraid of random objects, afraid of noises. Broke his leg at age one from a fall (bad luck or bad health genes?) Had "red zone" outbursts of aggression directed at his owner - but these went away after neutering. Owner joined Schutzhund club as he was interested in the sport, and the training helped him a lot and helped the dog a lot (now has a BH), but the dog will never be "normal". 

(Both owners say that had they known then what they know now, they would not have gotten a dog from this person). 

This is a good example why you don't get two dogs to start and breed them - there are so many unknowns. What kind of temperament do these dogs produce, what health issues run in the lines? What has the stud been producing? What does it take to have a stable dog, of good temperament, with working ability? It takes YEARS of working and training and living with a dog to be able to answer that question.


----------



## Doc

PPSSSSSSSSTTT. Two words - bloodlines and genetics.


----------



## lhczth

> Quote:I know I will butcher Lisa Clarks kennel name
> Zu Truen Haden MI


Thanks Ruq. Zu Treuen Händen. LOL


----------



## Castlemaid

> Originally Posted By: DocPPSSSSSSSSTTT. Two words - bloodlines and genetics.


Well, maybe the breeding dogs in my example came from stellar bloodlines and historically good genetics. But the breeding dogs themselves may have lost out on the genetic lottery and wound up with temperament flaws which may not be apparent at first glance, but could have been uncovered through the thourough testing of training for trials and titles. 

So each dog needs to be evaluated on its own merit, and not merely on his or her own pedigree - though a good pedigree will help ensure that a good dog passes on good genes. 

That is why the OP is being counseled to start with ONE dog, and train her and title her and live with her so she knows the dog inside and out, in person, not just on paper.


----------



## Doc

I said nothing nothing about just knowing them on paper. Do your paper work before you visit a dog. Prepare yourself with what knowledge is available about the histories of the lines. Do your homework before the dogs. Ask questions of folks who know the bloodliines, the strengths, weaknesses, the health, temperaments, etc. 

Garbage in; garbage out. Know the sire and dam. Know everything you can find about the sire and dam before looking/buying and that includes bloodlines and genetics - something most breeders and buyers nowadays have forgotten or pay little attention to.


----------



## cliffson1

But Castlemaid, it sounds like those dogs are titled and have hip certifications, so based on what I have learned this means they are from reputable breeders. If they were on a website they would pass the smell test wouldn't they?????


----------



## cliffson1

Just kidding above, but as Doc is saying there is more to breeding than the surface and then it is still a crapshoot!!


----------



## Castlemaid

> Originally Posted By: cliftonanderson1But Castlemaid, it sounds like those dogs are titled and have hip certifications, so based on what I have learned this means they are from reputable breeders. If they were on a website they would pass the smell test wouldn't they?????


My first thought was yes, that would be some _basics_ that anyone looking to buy a puppy from (or an adult) should look for and consider, but that alone does not make a good dog. We all know that there are a lot of dogs out there that are titled and OFA'd, and poor representatives temperament-wise of working dogs. 

So you were just trying to start an arguement, and sorta felt honoured that I was worthy of debate







.

The whole point of this thread, is that if you are NEW to breeding, start by getting a young female, and get to KNOW her before deciding if she is breeding quality, which I thought I could illustrate with an example. 


Now, if that person had a website, and it showed that he worked and titled his own dogs, and expounded on his decisions on why he was breeding and how he was making breeding decisions, and screened his puppy buyers so the new owners were better matched, then not only would it pass the smell test, but might be a breeder to look into some more. But not as it stands.


----------



## Amaruq

> Originally Posted By: lhczth
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:I know I will butcher Lisa Clarks kennel name
> Zu Truen Haden MI
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Ruq. Zu Treuen Händen. LOL
Click to expand...

One of these days I will get it right without looking it up! LOL


----------



## lhczth

Not like I picked something easy.


----------



## Doc

One of the most successful breeders of German Shepherds in this country started his kennel with 3 imported, closely related males. This same breeder would tell you that bitches are the foundation upon which successful kennels are built. All of this is important after you understand what you are trying to produce in your kennel, and you have a well thought out and put together breeding plan. 

So before the first male and/or female is purchased, one must be committed to studying the German shepherd dog, its history, the bloodlines, aquire a basic understanding of genetics, and know what you are trying to produce. Once this is done, then go find the type of dog that will be able to produce what you are looking for.


----------



## lhczth

Excellent post, Doc.


----------



## elisabeth_00117

Good post Doc.


----------



## anetaze

Ok, so where would you go to get educated on the bloodlines, genetics, etc?


----------



## Catu

Dog Shows, Schutzhund clubs, seminars, competitions, breeder associations, etc. to start somewhere. There is nothing like a GSD University where you take a class, it is a long journey that takes from many years to forever. 

It may depend also on what are your goals. If you are interested in working lines, by example, the start should be to get a dog to train, learn with him or she, get titles, meet a lot of trainers, breeders and their dogs. Your dog to learn first hand the advantages and disadvantages of certain traits, and the dogs of others to compare and decide what you like or not in a dog. And then, only then, to look for foundation dog to start breeding.


----------



## Doc

I would also read any and all the early books about German shepherds. They contain a great deal of information about the bloodlines and genetics. And talk to some "old timers" who have witness the decline of the shepherd over the past 30+ years so you have an understanding of what the German shepherd use to be and what it has become today. Then decide which era you like better.


----------



## mnm

I would add to the list, Lee Hough - Wolfstram on this board.

Another thing to take into consideration....most reputable breeders here in the states will only sell their puppies and young dogs on a limited registration, with that being lifted to a full registration after the dog has been proven breedworthy - titles and health clearances. 

We started out with a young show line male five and a half years ago and high visions of him being a stud...turned out, after I learned more and more and worked with him, I knew he wasn't the dog I would choose to breed to if I was going to be breeding a female, and I had him neutered. I still train him, still hoping to get that SchH1 title but he's also my buddy. I decided on a working line female for my next dog and she's been everything that I wanted. I took her from an imported 8 week old puppy (through a very trusted broker and with help of a experienced and now very close friend) and trained and titled her. She had her 1st litter last spring and one pup was placed with a world level competitor (he's competing at the WUSV this week).

So, my best advice for you is to find a good young female or puppy, and start with them. Maybe they turn out super and will be your foundation female, or maybe they end up being your personal companion and friend, but you will learn so much more going through the process and more people will respect you for that, than if you just get a dog and start breeding.


----------



## Catu

Another thought, based on Marsha post.

The more you are involved with the breed BEFORE to start breeding, the best owners the pups born from your breeding will get. If you are too new to the whole dog world you'll have to place an ad in the newspaper to look for owners for your pups. If you and your dogs are respected in the dog circles people will ask for matings and pups even before they are born.


----------



## phgsd

I have to agree with that! I got into the breed about 8 years ago, always wanted to breed but the more I learned the more I realized I needed to know MORE!
I have spent the time since I got my first dog learning everything I can about temperament, bloodlines, pedigrees, structure, etc...spent countless hours working many dogs and watching others work. It took me a long time to find a dog that was truly outstanding in every way, and I hope to breed my first litter sometime in the next year. I am so happy that I have taken the time to do things right by taking the time to learn, I wouldn't want it any other way. 

I guess my best advice would be to take your time and don't have your heart set on breeding your first dog. A lot of dogs will not work out, and it may take time to get the one that's truly breedworthy...there is a lot more to breeding than a Schh title.


----------



## mnm

Oops. should have said that Elsa's pup went to a National Level competitor...a younger 1/2 sister to Elsa is with the world level competitor.


----------



## windwalker718

Well, I'm 60, and on the other side of having been a hobby breeder. Now just have my pets. And the best advice I could give you is to purchase from an established known breeder the best quality young adult female of excellent pedigree that you can. Whether it's here in the US, or if you can make the connections in Europe to find a trustworthy breeder or supplier that is fine also. Making those connections generally take many years of actually being IN the breed as in competing and training at least on a club level. 

Because even now I do not have personal connections I could trust in Europe (note I'm saying Europe, not just Germany as a number of countries over there are producing high quality dogs) I would probably choose a female here in the US. Probably one that a breeder had retained from a litter, then decided to part with as the dog matured and they could more fully access the quality and value of the dog. 

I started out "Bass akwards" (as my Mama always said) with a Male I thought the world of. I started writing to other breeders to see if they'd be interested in breeding to him. I was quite fortunate to get a polite but very candid letter back from one lady who told me "You'll find that males, even nice males are a dime a dozen and that nobody's going to be interested in your male unless he's competing on a high level or already producing puppies who are doing the same." She went on to give me the same advice Chris gave you... If breeding is your goal, start with a proven female, the very best you can find... and then breed up. 

Marsha mentioned Lee Hough, who is expecting a litter from her bitch Basha. Several pups from Basha are already titled both here and in Europe... and this is a repeat of a very nice breeding. But starting with a puppy with the goal of breeding is chancy as you never know if they'll turn out of a quality to be worthy of breeding. 

There's several people on the site whose view on current lines and dogs who may be available to purchase. (Chris and Lee among them)


----------



## windwalker718

Oh, forgot 3 things (and too late to edit my post)

#1... if the person says they can tell ya everything about Shepherds... they almost certainly can't! 

#2... see WRITTEN PROOF of any claims regarding titles and tests on the bitch you consider before $1 changes hands. 

#3... discuss what you're told with other Shepherd folk to get a feel about the person's history. (take it with a large grain of salt, but listen anyhow)


----------



## wolfstraum

The key to any program is FEMALES not males - as Jill and others are saying - tons of people contact me and offer to "let" me use their males - titled males, backyard males etc.....I try to nicely inform them that males are everywhere - heck, I HAVE a Schh3 WH OB3 KKL CD male sitting at home that I don't use for MANY reasons.....I would have used him only on one female I had but did not happen......

I have contacts in Europe - got screwed once and got unbelievably gifted once with Basha - dam of Marsha's Elsa - she had one litter nursing when I bought her - 2 National level dogs in Belgium from Q haus Shiho - had a litter there for me, then 3 here - titled and soon to be titled dogs from every litter - there are 2 H's who look super.....as someone suggested - look for someone with a female who is started - I sold my young female to a guy who is in Germany competing in the WUSV right now - because he can do more with her than I ever could.....and eventually I will get a daughter of hers to continue my lines with as well.........but you have to KNOW what you want temperament wise, pedigree wise and have someone who will find that dog for you........I looked for a good female for nearly 2 years before getting Basha.....and she was only available from her owner for a few minutes before being sold LOL. 

Lee


----------



## pam

Another possible option is to find an experienced, successful breeder who is willing to mentor. If you have access to a good training club and are willing to put in the time, you may find a breeder who will consider a co-ownership of a young female--you train/title her and learn a lot in the process--if/when the time is right, the breeder assists you in choosing a male for a breeding, gets you through the pregnancy/whelping, assists in placing the pups and you share in the proceeds (not a lot after the vet bills, food, supplements, etc.). However, the knowledge you would gain would be priceless and you could avoid a few of the pitfalls and setbacks that otherwise come only with the school of hard knocks.


----------



## Smithie86

I was able to have an excellent conversation with the breeder of Rosso (WUSV vice 2006 and WUSV 2007) this past weekend. She, as well as Pierre (handler and trainer before - one of the top ones) stress the importance of raising, training and competing with the dog. How else can you fully understand what you are producing in your focus on breeding? The breeder does focus on the females as well, to breed trained and titled females from your own breeding program is what it should all be about. 

It takes time effort and focus, but it is the goal.


----------



## SouthernThistle

> Originally Posted By: Tim WildWhat hasn't been mentioned except in passing is that the kind of stud dog the OP is talking about is worth a lot, like thousands. Not worth thousands but you can have it for three low payments of $19.95, but actually worth a lot of money. Like mortgage the house and sell the kids into slavery kind of money.










but true.


----------



## Wolfheart

Hello everyone!

Thank you for the outstanding advice. I really appreciate all of it, it's given me much more information than I could have gathered on my own.

To clear a few things up, I decided not to import and I'm still looking for the right breeder than will be willing to ship a lovely woofer here to Canada and will be able to continue an extensive relationship with me. Still looking for suggestions and imput on breeders!

I would NOT buy a male and female to breed them. I understand that it doesn't work that way, I was just thinking of starting with a female and a male - finding the female a mate and seeing how the male develops and possibly offering him as a stud (depending on what titles he achieves, what kind of dog he is, etc) and MAYBE breeding the two of them if they are a suitable match. I've just always dreamt of working with a male GSD, so I kind of clung to that idea. Please don't think I would just buy two dogs and breed them, that is certainly not the case.

Also, the point of my getting a German Shepherd is to train, title and live with them as my 24/7 companion. I love the Schutzhund sport! I definitely will be training and titling any dogs that come into my family, ESPECIALLY if I have plans of breeding.









Now, my next step is the learn everything I can about genetics, working lines and pedigrees. Anyone have any resources I can use to learn all about this? I am going to contact my nearest Schutzhund club to try and get involved with them (If you know of any in Ontario, Canada, please let me know!) so I can begin learning. I'm hoping to get my first dog within a year, depending on how it all works out, and start training in Schutzhund.

Advice is appreciated beyond anything, because I trust you all the most and have the utmost respect for so many of you! Thanks again!


----------



## mandelyn

The best way to find a dog is to get hands on. Go to the clubs, hang with the people, go to the shows. Google and forums only get you so far before you have to go do the foot work. See who wins, see who's methods you like. You'll start to learn the pedigrees, what they mean, and who has the lines you've decided you like.

When I went to Germany my goal was to bring home my perfect Shepherd. No such luck. Brought back two females, spayed them both. I didn't get much hands on learning and got scammed both times. Technically one was a rescue case though after I got a hold of her, wasn't what I thought she was going to be. But I still have her and she's a great pet. 

My boys, well, we'll see on the newest. Logan is a rescue. He's the poster dog for everything wrong with BYBs. Bastian, we'll see after I get him back in shape.

You can look at photos and pedigrees until you're blue in the face. I can't help on finding a club for you, but you can look online, contact, go visit and see if the club is a match for your goals.

Go to shows, meet and great. Join a club. Maybe someone needs a handler and you can learn a lot that way before getting your own dog.


----------



## Ocean

Wolfheart said:


> To clear a few things up, I decided not to import and I'm still looking for the right breeder than will be willing to ship a lovely woofer here to Canada and will be able to continue an extensive relationship with me. Still looking for suggestions and imput on breeders!


My suggestion: ship yourself. Buy a plane ticket or put gas in the tank and drive toward the US border. Depending on where you are closer to there are tons of schutzhund clubs in British Columbia or Ontario next to the U.S. border and more in the U.S. within only a couple of hours from the border.

The reason I say this is do not rely on the Internet alone. Nothing still beats face2face. Go to gsscc.ca and germanshepherddog.com for addresses and events. Network. Start relationships. See as many dogs as possible. See dogs training. See how they behave off the field. When you see ones you like, talk to their handlers. Ask about puppies. Then have a pup shipped to you in the near future.


----------



## Hidden Valley Farms

Hi There,

Very interesting topic and one I've been very interested in lately. I'm new to this board and have a lot to learn and am also looking for my first German Shepherd dog. I'm also considering importing. 

Temperament is of the upmost importance to me along with proper conformation and soundness of body. 

Would Fleischerheim GHD be considered a reputable breeder. Please feel free to PM me if you think not. TIA

Chris
www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net


----------



## Jessiewessie99

From reading the posts, I am starting to think Girls Rule and Boys drool when it comes to breeding.....

I might or might not breed GSDs when I am older....but thats for a later time.But I for sure want to breed Collies.lol.


----------



## ShoshanaRVT

Great thread! Lots of info


----------



## cliffson1

Look at the experience of some of the posters......a lot of helpful information in this thread for a new person seeking to get in the breed.:wub:


----------



## blackshep

Would this be your first GSD?

I agree about finding a mentor and getting a young female that you can put titles on yourself.

Ideally, you want your dogs to go into working homes, or at least some of them. And experienced handlers are not going to buy a pup from someone who doesn't know what they are talking about.

There is so much to learn, and if you're going to be a good breeder, you need to provide lifetime support for owners of your puppies. Which means you need to know how to address training troubles, behavioural issues etc for all types of temperaments.

It's not enough to have a good pedigree. You need to work your dog. Even as a mere pet owner, I wanted to see that both parents from the pups were biddable, and could handle some pressure from being worked.

ETA: Something to think about - What are your goals as a breeder? And how are you going to get there? (I don't just mean getting pups on the ground, what are your plans besides that. There's more to breeding than just putting a litter on the ground) Best of luck on your endeavour!


----------

