# I'm not one to have you critique my dog, but please critique her pedigree.



## counter

I see my girl as perfect, so the last thing I want is for people to point out all of her physical flaws. Ha! Here's her pedigree:

http://pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=600896-nara-simha-devi-vom-engel

However, my skin is a little thicker when it comes to names and titles on paper. I would love to learn more about the lines that went into making her. She has been awesome, not perfect, but awesome for the almost 7 years I've had her.

I want to put a better pic up on Pedigree Database, but I don't remember my name and password and had a difficult time trying to reset it or contact a mod/admin from their site to reset it for me. I kinda gave up.

Oh well, I don't know much about her lines. I see you can go back 7 generations for linebreeding as well as her pedigree. If you want to take it back that far to give me a history lesson, that's fine. Do what you have time to do. I am not picky. All I know is that Ursus von Batu is supposed to be the "biggest name" on there. Not sure who else is on there and what their legacy/input/donation was to the future and betterment of the breed, if any.

I look forward to your replies, and thank you in advance for taking the time to help with this.


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## counter

134 views and...


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## Sunflowers

... And all you get is someone saying she has an incredibly sweet and gorgeous face! :wub:


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## counter

Sunflowers said:


> ... And all you get is someone saying she has an incredibly sweet and gorgeous face! :wub:


Well thank you!!! 

I know Nara is from show lines, but there are experts on here that can tell me more than just "West German Show Lines." They can dive deeper into details that I would never know just by looking at names of kennels. That's what I'm hoping for.


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## qbchottu

Hi - 
This pedigree is kind of all over the place. Doesn't really seem to be any rhyme or reason to it. The dogs are so far removed from anything of worth that one cannot really say with certainty what this combo will produce because there is no consistency of type or lineage. The parents seem like pets that were bred because they were WGSL and male to female. The grandparents seem to be from countries like Peru with no discernible or recognizable titles. For example, I have no idea what a CABDA is - maybe someone will chime in. Anyway, this is mostly a pet lines type breeding - too far removed from any dog of note to say anything reliable about progeny. 

Seems like you enjoy her and love her - that's what is important. Pretty girl - good luck with her


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## counter

qbchottu said:


> Hi -
> This pedigree is kind of all over the place. Doesn't really seem to be any rhyme or reason to it. The dogs are so far removed from anything of worth that one cannot really say with certainty what this combo will produce because there is no consistency of type or lineage. The parents seem like pets that were bred because they were WGSL and male to female. The grandparents seem to be from countries like Peru with no discernible or recognizable titles. For example, I have no idea what a CABDA is - maybe someone will chime in. Anyway, this is mostly a pet lines type breeding - too far removed from any dog of note to say anything reliable about progeny.
> 
> Seems like you enjoy her and love her - that's what is important. Pretty girl - good luck with her


Thank you for your time. I was also wondering what the CABDA title was about. And yes, Nara is very loved. I've already been put in situations where I was willing to die for her. She is my first dog, and my favorite. I honestly cringe when I think about her passing one day. I don't know how I will handle it.

But yes, to end on a happy note, thank you once again for looking over her pedigree. I know you didn't have to, but you volunteered your time to assist me.


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## NancyJ

Not sure there is much you can get out of the pedigree. She seems to have a lot of Showlines with a very small smattering of DDR and W German Working lines...At 7, WYSIWYG, as you said. 

It seems more people on the board have working line dogs so I imagine some of the heavy hitters in pedigree analysis are not going to have much more to add, but the comment above seems solid to me and I am no pedigree expert.


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## Debanneball

Hey Counter, I have problems with initials, don't show, train dogs, honestly only want them as a friend.. But, I remember when I was looking up initials, I came across Yugoslovian working dog titles...CAB has something to do with Protection, and then A had to do with marking and D was the marking...thats all I can remember. I don't know if it all goes together or not, but maybe its a jump start point for you. Deb


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## carmspack

qbchottu said 
"This pedigree is kind of all over the place. Doesn't really seem to be any rhyme or reason to it. The dogs are so far removed from anything of worth that one cannot really say with certainty what this combo will produce because there is no consistency of type or lineage"

nothing could be further from this analysis . This pedigree is so intensely narrowed in the gene pool that it may as well represent a new breed with a new founder . That being Canto Wienerau. 
I looked at the pedigree more than once just to be sure . Each time I went to the 6th generation. 

Did not see any 
"small smattering of DDR and W German Working lines"

Pure show -- heavy duty Uran Wildsteigerland -- Canto 

So deliberate and consistent that I had to check whether I had been stuck and was repeating the same dog or whether I had advanced to the next dog .

Try it . Nara Simha Devi Vom Engel

enter this pedigree . Now go to the very last dog that the show and click and That dog's 3 generation pedigree shows.

this shows you the inbreeding on Fanto Maifeld
*5 - 4* *VA5 Lasso di Val Sole* *00.39%* *03.13%* *5 - 4,5* *VA1 Canto von Arminius* *00.39%* *03.71%* *5 - 5* *VA2 Quanto von der Wienerau* *00.20%* *02.34%*



Babsy Friedewald *3 - 3* *2X VA1 Uran vom Wildsteiger Land* *03.14%* *06.45%* ↳4 - 4 ↳V12 Irk von Arminius ↳5 - 5 ↳V Pirol von Arminius ↳5 - 5 ↳V Dunja vom Weilachtal ↳4,5 - 4 ↳V Palme vom Wildsteiger Land ↳5 - 5 ↳VA5 Fina vom Badsee ↳5 - 5 ↳V Nick von der Wienerau *5,5 - 4* *VA16 Zorro vom Haus Beck* *00.39%* *03.32%*

Zito Badener Land
*4,4 - 4* *2X VA1 Uran vom Wildsteiger Land* *00.78%* *04.88%* ↳5,5,5 - 4,5 ↳V Palme vom Wildsteiger Land ↳5,5 - 5 ↳V12 Irk von Arminius *5 - 4* *V Xaver von Arminius* *00.39%* *02.54%*

Espe Mausespitz

*4 - 3,4* *VA6 Odin von Tannenmeise* *01.59%* *06.93%* ↳5 - 4,5 ↳SG3 Häsel von Tannenmeise *5 - 4,5,5* *2X VA1 Quando von Arminius* *00.40%* *05.86%* *5 - 5* *V16 Dax von der Wienerau* *00.20%* *01.71%* *5,5 - 5* *2X VA1 Uran vom Wildsteiger Land* *00.20%* *02.54%* *5 - 5* *V Xaver von Arminius* *00.20%* *01.76%* *5 - 5* *V Palme vom Wildsteiger Land* *00.20%* *02.15%*


Ursus Batu

*3 - 3* *VA6 Odin von Tannenmeise* *03.17%* *06.93%* ↳4 - 4 ↳SG3 Häsel von Tannenmeise ↳5 - 5 ↳V Dixie von Tannenmeise ↳4 - 4 ↳2X VA1 Quando von Arminius *4,5 - 5* *2X VA1 Uran vom Wildsteiger Land* *00.39%* *03.32%* *5 - 5,5* *V16 Dax von der Wienerau* *00.20%* *02.49%* *5,5 - 5,5* *V Xaver von Arminius* *00.20%* *03.32%* *5,5,5,5 - 5,5* *V Palme vom Wildsteiger Land* *00.20%* *05.27%*

Ilka haus Fruhauf

*3 - 4,5* *2X VA1 Uran vom Wildsteiger Land* *01.57%* *05.66%* ↳4 - 4,5,5 ↳V Palme vom Wildsteiger Land ↳5 - 5 ↳VA5 Fina vom Badsee ↳5 - 5,5 ↳V Nick von der Wienerau ↳4 - 5 ↳V12 Irk von Arminius *5 - 5* *VA5 Lasso di Val Sole* *00.20%* *02.34%*


Karats Olex
*4,5 - 5,5* *2X VA1 Uran vom Wildsteiger Land* *00.39%* *04.10%* *5 - 4* *V Quina von Arminius* *00.40%* *04.30%* *5 - 4,4* *VA7 Fedor von Arminius* *00.40%* *04.49%* *5 - 5* *V1 Dando aus Nordrheinland* *00.20%* *02.25%* *5 - 5* *V Palme vom Wildsteiger Land* *00.20%* *02.15%*

Lissi Grauen

*4,5 - 4* *2X VA1 Uran vom Wildsteiger Land* *00.78%* *04.10%* ↳5 - 5 ↳V12 Irk von Arminius *5 - 5,5* *V Palme vom Wildsteiger Land* *00.20%* *02.93%*



and if you were to follow the 6th generation back in the same manner you would have Canto in the center , the trunk of the tree.

all show lines.

I am glad your dog is as wonderful as she is for you .


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## qbchottu

Sorry Carmen - you may know working lines, but you are incorrect in this matter. Had a few heavy hitters over last night on their way to the GSDCA Sieger Show - just for conversation we looked through this pedigree because I had a friend point me to this thread. This breeding was not intentional and not planned out. If you can go back far enough, you will find commonalities in all dogs - every Shepherd is linebred on somewhere down the line. I get your agenda with pointing out that showlines are back-massed on a few key dogs, but this dog is too far removed for you to predict anything about this dog based on linebreeding that many generations back. And the linebreeding was certainly not intentional looking at the lack of foresight in this breeding and that of the parents. Someone decided they had a few WGSL dogs out of Germany and put them together, few generations down, this dog was produced - it does seem remotely intentional. Neither you nor me nor anybody well-versed in showline pedigrees could say anything about this dog other than it is a WGSL. You are rrrrreally reaching with this post imo 

But carry on - we all have an agenda to push


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## carmspack

how much variety or change can you effect ?


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## carmspack

if you have limited "ingredients" the results will be similar 
there may not be any current super winners in the pedigree , which may or may not be a blessing , but those genetics would not add anything new .


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## counter

I'm following and trying to learn, so I'm grateful for your replies. Hopefully this remains civil. The last thing I want is my thread, or anything about one of my Loves (Nara), to create anything other than a positive discussion for people to learn and get edu-ma-cated.


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## carmspack

you have a pet companion that you love and that is pretty much everything that you could have wanted .

the pedigree doesn't matter for this - you have a dog that is 7 years so pretty much what would have emerged , has . Only health and longevity remain and you have a hand in that .

but if you want to read visit http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breeding-general/163886-iceberg-breeders.html


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## carmspack

as to a comment about this pedigree having no direction - it may not be SV collection of V and VA -- but it is not byb or without thought or planning -- 

Jax Windmill - Nara's sire seems to have been taken through a show circuit - probably more all-breed , good thing when overall balance is a consideration --


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## cliffson1

a lot depends on what you are looking for in regards to this pedigree. A good solid dog?....I think the chances are good that this dog has good stable temperament. A top show prospect?....not so much as things have changed so much in past 15 years, and in many ways this is based on somewhat "older" showlines. a top working dog.....chancy, and lastly the genetics are the same as all the other show dogs.....you can mix and remix anyway you want, you still have same genetics with same basic strengths and limitations that come from these dogs.


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## carmspack

thank you Cliff - what I said . 

"you can mix and remix anyway you want, you still have same genetics with same basic strengths and limitations that come from these dogs"

I think you are better for it that the dog does not have the current must-have list -- 

enjoy your dog.

I for one would be curious to see what your dog looks like standing , side view -- the sire looks to be solid and balanced - no hackneyed air stepping roach back --


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## counter

carmspack said:


> I for one would be curious to see what your dog looks like standing , side view -- the sire looks to be solid and balanced - no hackneyed air stepping roach back --


I've only fooled around with stacking her, but we've never taken pics. I will see what I can find that shows her standing from the side. Brb!


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## counter

WAIT!!!










I was hoping to avoid any critiques of my Nara, as I don't want to know of her imperfections. She is perfect to me.

O OK...I will find some pics anyways and just go put on some chainmail and armor to protect my thick-but-not-thick-enough-for-this skin. Hahahaha!


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## counter

I'm looking for pics of Nara standing. Most seem to be action shots. I'm scrolling back through a history of literally thousands of pics to see what I can find that might help. As I find them, I'll post them here. For starters, these are the best I have found so far. Not sure if they'll work, but I have to start somewhere, right!?! Some are thrown in to be silly. Can't be serious 100% of the time:wild:


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## carmspack

how nice to see a happy , healthy , well adjusted, physically balanced dog, no exaggerations , no dysfunctional conformation . Be proud .

that is one nice dog


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## counter




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## RebGyp

I don't know much about pedigrees, and don't know much about confirmation. But I do know what I like. Your dog is beautiful. Love his head.


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## Guy9999

Could this dog with a handler get a championship? Have worse gotten titled?


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## Susan_GSD_mom

Nara is beautiful. And as Carmen said, none of the gross exaggerations that are seen in many lines...

Susan


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## qbchottu

carmspack said:


> how nice to see a happy , healthy , well adjusted, physically balanced dog, no exaggerations , no dysfunctional conformation . Be proud .
> 
> that is one nice dog


Are we looking at the same dog? 

No offense to OP - fine pet dog, but certainly not what I call physically balanced with no conformation dysfunctions. 

Dog is maybe 5-10lb overweight, lacks sufficient muscle, and is wet. Forearm is short, chest is too deep, insufficient rear angulation, croup is short and steep, and has a light mask. 

It's also amusing that you threw out the "roach back" comment earlier as a dig to modern WGSL then commend this dog's structure as this dog is slightly sway backed. She has flat withers that lead to a sagging back as her back is not firm - top line then goes up again to meet with her croup that dips short and steep into her tail set. 

Looks like a very loved and happy dog, but not conformationally sound. Again - no offense meant at all OP. Just interesting how one can use insulting terms in one post, and then praise a dog that doesn't possess correct structure in another :thinking:


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## qbchottu

The term roach back implies that the highest point in the dog's back is somewhere other than the withers. Depending on how she would stack, you could potentially call this dog roached due to her flat withers and high rear.


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## carmspack

booo qbchottu

what is winning in the show ring needs to be re examined -- and it is ---

go back and see how the much the structure has changed from what a normal , natural dog looks like.

this dog more reminiscent of the dogs of the dogs in the 60's - 





weight is a little heavy -- that is not genetic -- 

this dog shows that it can do well and thrive 

how many threads are there with worried owners with dogs that have digestive problems , can't put on weight 

this dog looks like it has some immune health 

look at the eyes

look at the nice ears , clean , no yeast , no irritation 

time to change priorities


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## RocketDog

Carmen, surely you're not suggesting that west German show lines hold the monopoly on allergies or health problems...?


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## carmspack

Not at all .


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## qbchottu

Carmen: I expect more from you than to redirect the thread now that your statement has been contradicted sufficiently. Find where I stated that conformation trumps health - don't believe you will find it as I didn't say that anywhere. Again - stick with the point at hand rather than reaching for smoke and mirrors to derail the discussion. 

You are laughably reaching for retorts if you think you can point to a picture of an overweight dog with lack of muscle tone and use that as an indication to its overall health. If this was the case, I could save a lot in vet bills outsourcing my veterinary care to tech support in India  

Then on top of all that fluff, you are stating modern WGSL somehow lead the charge in health problems in our breed? Take a step back and stop pushing your agenda so aggressively - it's a tired and unfounded argument at best. 

You brought up conformation and lack of physical dysfunction in this dog - you can now see that is incorrect. Stay with the task at hand - attempting to delineate the thread to suit your argument speaks volumes about your overall agenda  

My critique has nothing to do with the show ring and what is winning. In any venue this dog would have a short forearm, deep chest, flat withers, sway back with soft top line, steep short croup, almost straight hocks, and lack of condition. Not the balanced and conformationally sound dog you claim it to be.


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## carmspack

qbc "Then on top of all that fluff, you are stating modern WGSL somehow lead the charge in health problems in our breed? Take a step back and stop pushing your agenda so aggressively - it's a tired and unfounded argument at best."

where? where did I say that .


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## counter

Grain o' salt...grain o' salt...(*would be covering Nara's eyes and ears as I read this thread, if I were at home with her*)

I wanted to add, these pics are random from around 2 years old until 4 or 5. She is my first dog. I never had a dog growing up, so she has been my guinea pig. As a new dog owner, I got caught up in the bigger is better mentality. I knew I was exercising her enough, so I went into denial about her size. I had myself 100% convinced that she was all muscle and not fat, tipping the scales at 90 lbs. GSDs are supposed to be HUGE right!?! Of course they're not. Once the people on this forum educated me, I snapped back to reality and got her on a diet. Now Nara weighs 76 lbs and still has more weight to lose. So in these pics, she's probably 90 lbs in most, if not all, of them. I'm aiming for 70 lbs and will see how she looks when she gets there, to determine if she has more weight to lose.

Also, in 95% of those pics, she was standing on uneven earth. They are mostly from Oregon, and we lived on a mountain, so there weren't really any flat places on our property. Our entire front and back yard was sloped, and the only flat spot was where they built our house. Not trying to defend anything. Just wanted everyone to realize that she probably is not standing on a flat surface in any of those pics, other then the one tennis court pic with Paw Paw, which was in Virginia before she turned 2 years old, and maybe 1 or 2 other photos.

Thanks everyone. My skin is thicker than I thought...well, at least so far...


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## counter

I thought we were all friends here.

Are you guys not friends!?!?

Me sad now. Me cry.


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## Yoshi

qbchottu said:


> Dog is maybe 5-10lb overweight, lacks sufficient muscle, and is wet. Forearm is short, chest is too deep, insufficient rear angulation, croup is short and steep, and has a light mask.


What does wet mean?  I assume it means the dog is not covered in liquid? Sorry if it's a dumb question.


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## counter

Yoshi said:


> What does wet mean?  I assume it means the dog is not covered in liquid? Sorry if it's a dumb question.


I didn't know either, but this is how it was explained to me:



> 'Dry' refers to tight musculature which makes the veins stand out in relief on the legs and the face and on a very slick coat, the neck and thighs. Think of it as a synonym for 'ripped' referring to a man.
> 
> 'Wet' references a dog whose musculature is somewhat (or greatly) obscured by fat or lack of fitness (or both). Think of it as a synonym for 'flabby' in humans.


Hope that helps. I know it helped me!


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## cliffson1

You have a very nice dog, with many of the attributes you see in working dogs, which the German Shepherd is....enjoy your dog!


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## Gwenhwyfair

Counter, my Smitty dog who is a rescue doesn't have conformation to the breed standard either. He's got "soft ears" which tip over at the top, straight hocks, probably a bit too steep in the shoulder too. When I first adopted him I thought he was (other then the ears) a decent dog conformationally. He's athletic and can run and jump with ease. 

But....

As I've been learning and reading and looking at GSDs IRL I'm learning he's not really conformationally correct as compared to the breed standard.

If I asked for a critique I would expect his conformational faults would be pointed out as they compare to the breed standard. Now this might bother me if I had spent $5,000 for a show quality puppy that turned into a Smitty, but I didn't.

I think learning about the breed standard and from critiques is a good thing as it builds knowledge about our favorite breed! 

It doesn't change how I feel about my Smitty dog. He is loved and will always have a home with me, but if I ever want to get into showing (sport and conformation) then having a critical eye like Ash's will be invaluable.


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## counter

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Counter, my Smitty dog who is a rescue doesn't have conformation to the breed standard either. He's got "soft ears" which tip over at the top, straight hocks, probably a bit too steep in the shoulder too. When I first adopted him I thought he was (other then the ears) a decent dog conformationally. He's athletic and can run and jump with ease.
> 
> But....
> 
> As I've been learning and reading and looking at GSDs IRL I'm learning he's not really conformationally correct as compared to the breed standard.
> 
> If I asked for a critique I would expect his conformational faults would be pointed out as they compare to the breed standard. Now this might bother me if I had spent $5,000 for a show quality puppy that turned into a Smitty, but I didn't.
> 
> I think learning about the breed standard and from critiques is a good thing as it builds knowledge about our favorite breed!
> 
> It doesn't change how I feel about my Smitty dog. He is loved and will always have a home with me, but if I ever want to get into showing (sport and conformation) then having a critical eye like Ash's will be invaluable.


I'm OK with them critiquing her. I understand that the majority of GSDs probably don't meet the breed standard in some way or another. To others, Nara is not perfect. To me, Nara *IS* perfect. I can say from my experience that it's rare to meet a better looking GSD in public though. Actually, I've only seen 1 other GSD that I thought was better looking than Nara (sssshhh, don't tell her I said that!). But that's my personal preference. It doesn't matter what people say about her. I am always open to learning.

And I have no plans to ever show or breed any dog. Not sure if I mentioned that here or not. Nara was spayed at 11 months old.

As for show dog people, no offense to anyone on here as I haven't met you in person, but I used to attend Siberian Husky club meetings before realizing that I must be from a different planet. They were all super duper nice, but I honestly felt like a fish out of water when I was with them. When I found out that it was common for them to surgically remove their dog's vocal cords due to the nosie they made at feeding time (so as to not disturb their neighbors), I knew it was time to go! Ha. Something was just a little "off" IMO. That was my limited experience with show people. I'm all about dog lover unity though! It's our common denominator.


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## Gwenhwyfair

I know a top Bassett breeder that does that, snip vocal cords. Problem is neighbors by the kennels and show venues complain enough they can get shut down shows and force kennels to move.

I think Nara is beautiful too. I still think my Smitty is a handsome boy. Yet compared to the breed standard they don't measure up. 

That's the thing, if you're going to ask for a critique it has to be against the standard, objectively as possible, else how can you critique? It removes the "eyes of the beholder effect" as much as possible with us subjective humans.

I'd only post pics of Smitty in the pictures, pictures, pictures forum. 

Btw I was heavily into the horse world for many years and it's the same thing there. Conformation and performance vs a beloved trail riding pony....




counter said:


> I'm OK with them critiquing her. I understand that the majority of GSDs probably don't meet the breed standard in some way or another. To others, Nara is not perfect. To me, Nara *IS* perfect. I can say from my experience that it's rare to meet a better looking GSD in public though. Actually, I've only seen 1 other GSD that I thought was better looking than Nara (sssshhh, don't tell her I said that!). But that's my personal preference. It doesn't matter what people say about her. I am always open to learning.
> 
> And I have no plans to ever show or breed any dog. Not sure if I mentioned that here or not. Nara was spayed at 11 months old.
> 
> As for show dog people, no offense to anyone on here as I haven't met you in person, but I used to attend Siberian Husky club meetings before realizing that I must be from a different planet. They were all super duper nice, but I honestly felt like a fish out of water when I was with them. When I found out that it was common for them to surgically remove their dog's vocal cords due to the nosie they made at feeding time (so as to not disturb their neighbors), I knew it was time to go! Ha. Something was just a little "off" IMO. That was my limited experience with show people. Dog lovers unite!


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## counter

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I know a top Bassett breeder that does that, snip vocal cords. Problem is neighbors by the kennels and show venues complain enough they can get shut down shows and force kennels to move.
> 
> I think Nara is beautiful too. I still think my Smitty is a handsome boy. Yet compared to the breed standard they don't measure up.
> 
> That's the thing, if you're going to ask for a critique it has to be against the standard, objectively as possible, else how can you critique? It removes the "eyes of the beholder effect" as much as possible with us subjective humans.
> 
> I'd only post pics of Smitty in the pictures, pictures, pictures forum.
> 
> Btw I was heavily into the horse world for many years and it's the same thing there. Conformation and performance vs a beloved trail riding pony....


Yeah, it's all good. I asked for a critique of her pedigree and not of her body, but it sort of turned in to that anyways. A question was asked related to her body based on what was seen on the pedigree, so I posted pics to try and help answer the question, as these nice people were trying to help me.

And to be clear, I've known all her life that Nara does not meet the GSD standard. I'm OK with that. I mean, there's nothing I can do now, right!? Just love her until the end and cry when she leaves me.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Yup. Nothing you can do now and like with my Smitty, I really don't give a flip because he was meant to be my buddy and he is that!


However, if I ever buy another GSD from a breeder I will be pickier not just for looks but for supporting breeders who strive for a good balance between conformation standards, health AND performance.



counter said:


> Yeah, it's all good. I asked for a critique of her pedigree and not of her body, but it sort of turned in to that anyways. A question was asked related to her body based on what was seen on the pedigree, so I posted pics to try and help answer the question, as these nice people were trying to help me.
> 
> And to be clear, I've known all her life that Nara does not meet the GSD standard. I'm OK with that. I mean, there's nothing I can do now, right!? Just love her until the end and cry when she leaves me.


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## counter

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Yup. Nothing you can do now and like with my Smitty, I really don't give a flip because he was meant to be my buddy and he is that!
> 
> 
> However, if I ever buy another GSD from a breeder I will be pickier not just for looks but for supporting breeders who strive for a good balance between conformation standards, health AND performance.


Yeah, I'm looking to get a Doberman after all 4 of these dogs leave me. I have been reading and posting on the Dobe board for years now in preparation. Seems that Dobes have 100X more health issues than GSDs though. I love the look, but am nervous about all of the medical problems. And of course I know it's more than just being about the look, but this is what initially attracted me to Dobes. Now I'm trying to sort out everything else to know exactly what I'm looking for when the time is right.

We will still always have a GSD. My wife and I agree on this. After how amazing Nara has been with our children and us, we told each other that there will be a Nara II, Nara III, etc. Not kidding either.

Oh, and the Dobie will be ANUBIS Keeper of Divine Justice.:smirk:


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## Gwenhwyfair

Ooooo love them Dobies too! I watched one at an IPO trial last year (working/European lines) and he rocked and got his IPO 1. Like you I steer away because of health issue..but...

I asked his owner/handler where she found such a fine Dobie and there's a breeder in Utah I think. I'll try to refresh my memory on that if your interested in a working line dobie. 



counter said:


> Yeah, I'm looking to get a Doberman after all 4 of these dogs leave me. I have been reading and posting on the Dobe board for years now in preparation. Seems that Dobes have 100X more health issues than GSDs though. I love the look, but am nervous about all of the medical problems. And of course I know it's more than just being about the look, but this is what initially attracted me to Dobes. Now I'm trying to sort out everything else to know exactly what I'm looking for when the time is right.
> 
> We will still always have a GSD. My wife and I agree on this. After how amazing Nara has been with our children and us, we told each other that there will be a Nara II, Nara III, etc. Not kidding either.
> 
> Oh, and the Dobie will be ANUBIS Keeper of Divine Justice.:smirk:


----------



## ugavet2012

I have a BYB Doberman, and I see several others at my job. They have not been that unhealthy. Not any worse than most other purebreds. Mine is 7 and only health issue has been mild allergies that we control with food (just Fromm, nothing special) and hypothyroidism. Mine is good with all people and anyone can handle him, and good with all dogs. He plays tug and fetch and has awesome food drive. The thing I hate, and the reason I do not want another, they tend to be very "Whine-y." Many of them I have met have been this way. Ours whines about everything you can think of.


----------



## counter

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Ooooo love them Dobies too! I watched one at an IPO trial last year (working/European lines) and he rocked and got his IPO 1. Like you I steer away because of health issue..but...
> 
> I asked his owner/handler where she found such a fine Dobie and there's a breeder in Utah I think. I'll try to refresh my memory on that if your interested in a working line dobie.


Yes, that would be awesome. I would prefer a working line, and I also live in Idaho. Salt Lake City is 4 hours from my house. I can take the name of the breeder and go read reviews on the Dobe board. If people think others are mean on this forum, don't even step foot on the Dobe board. Those Dobe people are 3X more passionate than us on here. Ha! They can't even get along with each other. It's a good thing and a bad thing. I just lurk in the shadows, striking like a ninja, then poof I am gone again like Kung Pow.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

LOL forum Ninja. 

O.k. I'll do some diggin in the ole memory banks and run some searches on what I remember. I'll PM you with the information. 

I've peeped at a dobie board from time to time, I did not get the impression they were into working line Dobies. Don't know if it's the same board though.

If you find a breeder I would suggest pinging some of our IPO knowledgeable folks here too since they may know from seeing them on the field. Let me tell you, when you see a Dobie doing IPO and doing well you don't forget. Elegance and power in one package.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

That's good to know about the health issues. I looked at some Dobie breeders and the list of health testing they do (the good breeders) was lengthy. 

Also nice to see you posting again. 



ugavet2012 said:


> I have a BYB Doberman, and I see several others at my job. They have not been that unhealthy. Not any worse than most other purebreds. Mine is 7 and only health issue has been mild allergies that we control with food (just Fromm, nothing special) and hypothyroidism. Mine is good with all people and anyone can handle him, and good with all dogs. He plays tug and fetch and has awesome food drive. The thing I hate, and the reason I do not want another, they tend to be very "Whine-y." Many of them I have met have been this way. Ours whines about everything you can think of.


----------



## counter

ugavet2012 said:


> I have a BYB Doberman, and I see several others at my job. They have not been that unhealthy. Not any worse than most other purebreds. Mine is 7 and only health issue has been mild allergies that we control with food (just Fromm, nothing special) and hypothyroidism. Mine is good with all people and anyone can handle him, and good with all dogs. He plays tug and fetch and has awesome food drive. The thing I hate, and the reason I do not want another, they tend to be very "Whine-y." Many of them I have met have been this way. Ours whines about everything you can think of.


Thanks for sharing your story. They seem to be infamous for severe separation anxiety from what I've read on the Dobe forum. I think I would be able to keep their mind and body stimulated enough daily to avoid this.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Sigh..a dobe? Your better of with a SL GSD .


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Sigh..a dobe? Your better of with a SL GSD .


Or a unicorn. 

Just kidding ..hehe.. There are some nice working line Dobies out there winning in bite sports. Kinda rare but they exist.


----------



## carmspack

the west German show line does not follow the standard 

this is right "ask for a critique it has to be against the standard, objectively as possible, else how can you critique"
but please do not try to convince me that the modern WGSL is close to the standard . They keep moving the "standard" to what they have, rather than have what the standard is , as written.

working - ddr - Czech - all are a closer representation of standard

standard represented back in Mutz, Marko, Bernd , Dingo , days

would the dog win at shows - for a championship - no , not what people in this group are looking for --- a working dog with good conformation would not either - so the advice for those people with a good conformation working dog is not to bother ,don't waste your money , what is there to prove --


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Carmen,

I'll not argue pedigrees or such with you because you know a LOT more then me.

So the below are general truisms (which exist in the horse world where I learned about conformation for many years, different animals, same human mind sets....)

first of all a good many WL breeders don't even show their dogs in conformation to put that objectivity to test. Without a test by an impartial trained observer (hopefully) - a judge you cannot claim objectivity.

Secondly here and IRL I read and listened to WL breeders in person argue between DDR dogs vs Czech dogs. Some of the ones I've seen at trials and training, even to a newbie to dog conformation look like totally different dogs.








carmspack said:


> the west German show line does not follow the standard
> 
> this is right "ask for a critique it has to be against the standard, objectively as possible, else how can you critique"
> but please do not try to convince me that the modern WGSL is close to the standard . They keep moving the "standard" to what they have, rather than have what the standard is , as written.
> 
> working - ddr - Czech - all are a closer representation of standard
> 
> standard represented back in Mutz, Marko, Bernd , Dingo , days
> 
> would the dog win at shows - for a championship - no , not what people in this group are looking for --- a working dog with good conformation would not either - so the advice for those people with a good conformation working dog is not to bother ,don't waste your money , what is there to prove --


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

...and to end on a positive note, hopefully, maybe it's just me but I see WL breeders who care enough about conformation to compete AND WGSL breeders who are striving to be moderate in conformation and bring back temperament and work-ability.

For the record I think this is a good thing!

If I buy a WL dog it will be from a breeder that also competes in conformation. They don't have to be tops, but make a good showing. If I buy a SL it will be from a breeder that is striving to bring back good working traits.


----------



## lauren43

counter said:


> Yeah, I'm looking to get a Doberman after all 4 of these dogs leave me. I have been reading and posting on the Dobe board for years now in preparation. Seems that Dobes have 100X more health issues than GSDs though. I love the look, but am nervous about all of the medical problems. And of course I know it's more than just being about the look, but this is what initially attracted me to Dobes. Now I'm trying to sort out everything else to know exactly what I'm looking for when the time is right.
> 
> We will still always have a GSD. My wife and I agree on this. After how amazing Nara has been with our children and us, we told each other that there will be a Nara II, Nara III, etc. Not kidding either.
> 
> Oh, and the Dobie will be ANUBIS Keeper of Divine Justice.:smirk:


I'm considering a Dobie as well (this is wayyy down the line as I just got a puppy) but the health is scary! Plus I love the look of cropped ears, but I am not a fan of cropping. And Holy Moly they are expensive puppies!!!


----------



## lauren43

Gwenhwyfair said:


> ...and to end on a positive note, hopefully, maybe it's just me but I see WL breeders who care enough about conformation to compete AND WGSL breeders who are striving to be moderate in conformation and bring back temperament and work-ability.
> 
> For the record I think this is a good thing!
> 
> If I buy a WL dog it will be from a breeder that also competes in conformation. They don't have to be tops, but make a good showing. If I buy a SL it will be from a breeder that is striving to bring back good working traits.


I have to agree with this. Some (not all) but some WL breeders are breeding for that drive. Drive being the number 1 factor. High drive looks fab in IPO but some of these dogs are no good in the home.. If I eventually move to a working line in my next GSD I want the all around dog, that has the ability to be shown in conformation and can work.

Or at least this is what my breeder search lead me to believe. I'm hoping I am wrong.


----------



## carmspack

yes , exactly they are totally different dogs, different than show lines, and yes the Czech dogs have changed , some coming closer to moderate American type conformation -- moderate , not extreme 

all dogs have changed in the last 20 / 15 years.

I get around and see a lot of dogs. I used to handle them in the show ring , all-breed , specialty and SV Sieger style.
Not just my own .

My travelling companion today did exactly that and has a keen and critical eye for conformation . 

Spent the day at a GSD American show line breeder with enormous success in her chosen category, a friend going back 35 years .
visit Sanhedrin - Shepherd Boys

FV, MV, AM/CAN CH SANHEDRIN'S LEARNING TO FLY

TONY , and his 11 year old mother and his young daughter -- house dogs . Announced our presence in the driveway. Came out to greet us . Nothing to be worried about , no hackling , circling , signs of fear -- very clear . In the house same thing , settled , were responsive to onwer's requests . Never had any health issues and tended to come from lines with some longevity. The mother of Tony still looking good for an 11 year old.
Totally different structure than WGSL's , working and "other".

Could not ask for a better companionable animal .

working ? wouldn't make the grade but there is no claim or expectation for this . Something to be proud to have and enjoy and not worry about - absolutely.

Would "Tony" do well in WGSL's conformation group ? No .


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

It's interesting you mention the Canadian dog. I've noticed that dog before.

Conversely some WLs do well showing in the ring with WGSLs no? I mean they don't hit the top but respectable.

Weberhaus has done this. Ash has with her WLs too.

Anyhow I respect a breeder willing to put their money where their mouth is so to speak.. Putting your dogs out there before a sport judge and a conformation judge takes a lot of work and determination, shows confidence and knowledge.

I know there are breeders out there quietly doing this and hopefully this will, if not mend, at least soften the SL vs WL split. I can hope right?


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

lauren43 said:


> I have to agree with this. Some (not all) but some WL breeders are breeding for that drive. Drive being the number 1 factor. High drive looks fab in IPO but some of these dogs are no good in the home.. If I eventually move to a working line in my next GSD I want the all around dog, that has the ability to be shown in conformation and can work.
> 
> Or at least this is what my breeder search lead me to believe. I'm hoping I am wrong.


if you decide Finnick isn't right send him to me. .


----------



## lauren43

Hahah. Finnick isn't going anywhere. This is the first time I fell in love with a dog I never met, he only gets better with time!

With both Avery and Lincoln there was a connection after meeting them...with Finnick it's different, can't wait to see our little relationship develop.


----------



## counter

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Or a unicorn.
> 
> Just kidding ..hehe.. There are some nice working line Dobies out there winning in bite sports. Kinda rare but they exist.


I already have a unicorn though...

and a dragon, just see!



















...until he was hunted by St. Michael the Knight...










...to protect the princess...



















...and was eventually slayed, restoring peace to the kingdom!



















Now where did I hide my rascally unicorn...!?! Maybe in here?


----------



## Debanneball

carmspack said:


> My travelling companion today did exactly that and has a keen and critical eye for conformation .
> 
> Spent the day at a GSD American show line breeder with enormous success in her chosen category, a friend going back 35 years .
> visit
> Sanhedrin - Shepherd Boys
> 
> FV, MV, AM/CAN CH SANHEDRIN'S LEARNING TO FLY
> 
> TONY , and his 11 year old mother and his young daughter -- house dogs . Announced our presence in
> the driveway. Came out to greet us . Nothing to be worried about , no hackling , circling , signs of fear -- very clear . In the house same thing , settled , were responsive to onwer's requests . Never had any health issues and tended to come from lines with some longevity. The mother of Tony still looking good for an 11 year old.
> Totally different structure than WGSL's , working and "other".
> 
> Could not ask for a better companionable animal .
> working ? wouldn't make the grade but there is no claim or expectation for this . Something to be proud to have and enjoy and not worry about - absolutely.
> 
> Would "Tony" do well in WGSL's conformation group ? No .


Fritz is out of Fury and Karma's litter. I am proud of him, he is stable, healthy, he is my friend...


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Hahaha Counter love it!!!! . 

The humor and adorable pics of your kids.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Ilda is a Zamp/Quenn granddaughter. She is stable LOVES tracking and to my eye moderate conformation. 

She has also been a most wonderful companion, brought to light even more after these last few months where my activity is limited and I have to rest. Always by my side, bringing me her toys because she thinks they make me smile. She is right.

Yes I :wub: my WGSL and I am glad that she is in my life.


----------



## martemchik

lauren43 said:


> I have to agree with this. Some (not all) but some WL breeders are breeding for that drive. Drive being the number 1 factor. High drive looks fab in IPO but some of these dogs are no good in the home.. If I eventually move to a working line in my next GSD I want the all around dog, that has the ability to be shown in conformation and can work.
> 
> Or at least this is what my breeder search lead me to believe. I'm hoping I am wrong.


Serious question...how many of those dogs have you had in your house, or how often have been in a household with such dogs?

Your sentence about the dogs not being able to settle is word for word what you hear as a sales pitch from breeders who's dogs just don't have the drive to actually work.


----------



## martemchik

Gwenhwyfair said:


> ...and to end on a positive note, hopefully, maybe it's just me but I see WL breeders who care enough about conformation to compete AND WGSL breeders who are striving to be moderate in conformation and bring back temperament and work-ability.
> 
> For the record I think this is a good thing!
> 
> If I buy a WL dog it will be from a breeder that also competes in conformation. They don't have to be tops, but make a good showing. If I buy a SL it will be from a breeder that is striving to bring back good working traits.


Many good WL breeders will get their dogs breed surveyed, so someone will make the judgement that the dog is to breed standard conformationally and doesn't possess any major faults. Most won't do conformation shows because at the end of the day they're a waste of money. Throwing a WL dog into a conformation show, be it AKC or SV...it won't change anything and is just throwing away the show fees. Those judges know that WL exist and they know what they look like...they aren't just oblivious to it, they just prefer/believe a GSD should look like the dogs in their respective breed ring.


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## Gwenhwyfair

....and because I think counter would dig this, while we're somewhat on the topic of conformation, plus I like WL eye candy,  how's about some V rated WLs?








V Boy von Zorro (and isn't that Robin's husband handling him in the pic?)








V Ike van het Basjes Huis KKL1 (I think this dog is in Canada too)








V H'Doc vom Rex Lupus KKL1











And of course the very popular V Drago vom Patriot Kkl1

One more.....sable...








V Faro z Neiberku ZVV1, IPO3, KKL1


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## Gwenhwyfair

Hehehe Martemchek, tell that to the owners of the above dogs. I was putting the above post together when you made yours. :laugh:

...and trust me there are many more and I'm just talking V rated, wanna look at SG?

Let me tell you this, conformation venues are not as snobby to WLs as people make them out to be.

I think some of this anti conformation stuff is sour grapes.


----------



## martemchik

Oh no! I know it kind of came off that way, but i don't think its a bad thing. I guess to me personally, it's weird to enter a competition basically knowing 100% you won't win. I guess the nice thing about SV is that you do get a show rating and it sticks with you...but you also have to look at when and where they got that rating....a small club event, or nationals.

I've shown in UKC, I've been told my boy would get an SG at an SV show. So I don't completely poopoo them, it's just too much subjectivity in something that needs to be objective.

My biggest complaint is usually the larger dogs win. I know for a fact one of the dogs you posted is over 100 lbs. I was just talking to friends who bred to the VA2 from the world Sieger and he's 115 lbs. Out of all the things in our standard that we can be quite objective about, judges clearly don't care. And sorry...over 100lbs is an extremely difficult working weight even for a dog who's frame is genetically built that big.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

martemchik said:


> Serious question...how many of those dogs have you had in your house, or how often have been in a household with such dogs?
> 
> Your sentence about the dogs not being able to settle is word for word what you hear as a sales pitch from breeders who's dogs just don't have the drive to actually work.


Lauren, you don't have to answer that....as a matter of fact, just a suggestion, I wouldn't. It's a trap!



Oh Marty ole friend, you do not know the breeder of her pup I take it? hehehe


----------



## counter

So here's something I don't understand. Can you show GSDs that weigh more than the breed standard? Wouldn't that automatically DQ them? If not, do oversized/overweight dogs ever win these competitions? I know very little about showing, but it seems that, if these shows are meant to promote breed standards, aren't they being hypocritical if they allow dogs outside of the breed standard to win or even place? Heck, for that matter, I would think a dog too small or too large shouldn't even be allowed to register and get shown at all. The only dogs should be the ones within the standards, so the best of the best are being put out there to represent the breed as a whole. Am I completely off here? Educate me.


----------



## martemchik

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Lauren, you don't have to answer that....as a matter of fact, just a suggestion, I wouldn't. It's a trap!
> 
> 
> 
> Oh Marty ole friend, you do not know the breeder of her pup I take it? hehehe


No I do! And it's not a trap. I actually don't believe her breeder would say anything like that! I know she said it about one of her dogs, but she has other WL that she'll tell you settle just fine. Ash won't make generalizations like that. She evaluates the individual dog.

It's just a line I hear way too often from people that don't have much experience with A LOT of dogs. It's a huge generality, like all WL can't settle and SL just lay on the couch all day. I hate seeing that crap on this forum perpetuated time and time again.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

I know Drago is a big boy. 

Anyhow I'm not a judge but these dogs were judged by people who are. 

The general point is it's somewhat of a myth that WLs are getting completely shut out, in fact quite a few are successful in the conformation ring.




martemchik said:


> Oh no! I know it kind of came off that way, but i don't think its a bad thing. I guess to me personally, it's weird to enter a competition basically knowing 100% you won't win. I guess the nice thing about SV is that you do get a show rating and it sticks with you...but you also have to look at when and where they got that rating....a small club event, or nationals.
> 
> I've shown in UKC, I've been told my boy would get an SG at an SV show. So I don't completely poopoo them, it's just too much subjectivity in something that needs to be objective.
> 
> My biggest complaint is usually the larger dogs win. I know for a fact one of the dogs you posted is over 100 lbs. I was just talking to friends who bred to the VA2 from the world Sieger and he's 115 lbs. Out of all the things in our standard that we can be quite objective about, judges clearly don't care. And sorry...over 100lbs is an extremely difficult working weight even for a dog who's frame is genetically built that big.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

If any group needs a thick skin around here it's us frog dog owners.

Oooo I'm on a roll, need to eat more Wheaties. 




martemchik said:


> No I do! And it's not a trap. I actually don't believe her breeder would say anything like that! I know she said it about one of her dogs, but she has other WL that she'll tell you settle just fine. Ash won't make generalizations like that. She evaluates the individual dog.
> 
> It's just a line I hear way too often from people that don't have much experience with A LOT of dogs. It's a huge generality, like all WL can't settle and SL just lay on the couch all day. I hate seeing that crap on this forum perpetuated time and time again.


----------



## martemchik

Counter, the way conformation works is the judge picks the dog with the least faults and the one closest to the standard. So if size is the only issue with the dog, and the others have much larger problems with them, the larger dog will win.

The problem with this is like I stated earlier, and what you are questioning, it's clearly making something that's objective, a subjective guideline. The other issue i see with it, is that a larger dog, looks more impressive. It will just be bigger and stronger looking. It will have a larger head and just look like a giant next to smaller dogs. And as people...we have a tendency to like bigger things that impress us visually from the get go. Call it a...first impression. And I think as much as judges will tell you they aren't biased in that way, I will always believe many are subconsciously still biased towards those dogs.

I have an 85 lbs male...if he stands next to a 115lbs GSD, he will be dwarfed and look like something is wrong with him, even though he is the one that is within standard.


----------



## martemchik

Gwenhwyfair said:


> If any group needs a thick skin around here it's us frog dog owners.
> 
> Oooo I'm on a roll, need to eat more Wheaties.


Lol! I try not to pile on you guys with your frogs...the rest of the crowd takes care of that plenty.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

SV height and weight standard:



> Males: Withers height 60 cm to 65 cm; weight 30 kg to 40 kg Females: Withers height 55 cm to 60 cm; weight 22 kg to 32 kg Testicles Dogs should display two evidently normally developed testicles, situated in the scrotum. Faults All deviations from the above-mentioned points should be considered as errors, the severity of fault appraisal being strictly in proportion to the degree of the deviation. *Major Faults Anything that departs from the Standard* and known characteristics of the breed in relation to the suitability for work; Ear faults: held out to the side; low-set; tipped over; overset (tipped toward each other); weak; Considerably lacking in pigment; Considerable deficiency in overall firmness.





counter said:


> So here's something I don't understand. Can you show GSDs that weigh more than the breed standard? Wouldn't that automatically DQ them? If not, do oversized/overweight dogs ever win these competitions? I know very little about showing, but it seems that, if these shows are meant to promote breed standards, aren't they being hypocritical if they allow dogs outside of the breed standard to win or even place? Heck, for that matter, I would think a dog too small or too large shouldn't even be allowed to register and get shown at all. The only dogs should be the ones within the standards, so the best of the best are being put out there to represent the breed as a whole. Am I completely off here? Educate me.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

A lot of subjectivity in sport venue judging too.

The only truly objective sports are those winners determined by a stop watch or measuring tape, speed events or distance.

Again the point is the idea that WLs are completely shunned in conformation isn't true.





martemchik said:


> Counter, the way conformation works is the judge picks the dog with the least faults and the one closest to the standard. So if size is the only issue with the dog, and the others have much larger problems with them, the larger dog will win.
> 
> The problem with this is like I stated earlier, and what you are questioning, it's clearly making something that's objective, a subjective guideline. The other issue i see with it, is that a larger dog, looks more impressive. It will just be bigger and stronger looking. It will have a larger head and just look like a giant next to smaller dogs. And as people...we have a tendency to like bigger things that impress us visually from the get go. Call it a...first impression. And I think as much as judges will tell you they aren't biased in that way, I will always believe many are subconsciously still biased towards those dogs.
> 
> I have an 85 lbs male...if he stands next to a 115lbs GSD, he will be dwarfed and look like something is wrong with him, even though he is the one that is within standard.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

One more thought on the subjectivity aspect. That's the human part of the equation.

Breeders/owners of a dog that doesn't win often will blame the judge's bias, even though it also possible their dog truly did not measure up.

It was the same in the horse show world. I was a ring steward and heard it all and sometimes it was the owner not being willing to be objective about their animal's flaws.

That knife cuts both ways.


----------



## Debanneball

martemchik said:


> Lol! I try not to pile on you guys with your frogs...the rest of the crowd takes care of that plenty.


Can someone explain 'frog dog'. I understand WL, working line, can't figure SL... Sorry:wub:


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Debanneball said:


> Can someone explain 'frog dog'. I understand WL, working line, can't figure SL... Sorry:wub:


SL Showline.

It's in reference to a video that was around showing some SLs with what I think most would consider really bad rear conformation that made the dogs seem almost frog like in the back. The video called them frogs.

The problem is the meme was applied universally to all SLs and they aren't all like that.


----------



## carmspack

I think when we are talking about "show" it is the American specialty , or primarily the SV Sieger Show.

All breed judges tend to pick on balanced , more moderate . They can be breeders of any breed , tested and qualified to judge dogs/ breeds within a group.
Specialty judges are breeders of GSD . They tend to breed from within the type of dogs that they are breeding , many times their dogs genetics are in the background of the dogs they are judging .
It can become a tight community.

The SV Sieger show has it's own genetic pool . Since the late 60's with the emergence of Canto , this is the leading branch . Dogs are "cookie cutter" because of reduced genetic variability .
Judges tend to be specialized with that group .

Working line dogs are evaluated against a standard , proportions set out which enable the dog to be functional at work . 

These are virtually 3 distinct breeds.

The members of each group tend to operate within their own group and are not exposed to dogs of the "other" . 

Partly because each group is not mutually beneficial , and one needs to stay focused.

The SV magazine , Das Schaferhund Magazin, Schutzhund USA , participation in observing conformation classes , both SV style and American style give you lots views.

A working line would not do well at American specialty , nor at German show specialty . Nor one of the tops in those two in the working line evaluation.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Oh boy. Carmen not the canto thing again.

I actually thought I'd have a hard time finding WLs with good ratings in conformation and I was wrong. Glad of it too!

Lots O' WLs holding their own in conformation and working venues. It's not information that is hidden from public view after all.


----------



## Debanneball

So then the judging is biased. To simplify, groups A, B and C..

Group A judges prefer Group A to C..and so forth. Is this what you are saying? And, if this is the case, then why not try to change it so its fair for everyone.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Owners are biased too.

Humans are political animals have always been and shall always be. However that doesn't mean there isn't some equity in the end.

American/Canadian show lines get even more grief from WL folks then WGSLs btw.

In edit Btw I don't know how a WL or WGSL would do in AKC conformation shows, I don't follow that at all.





Debanneball said:


> So then the judging is biased. To simplify, groups A, B and C..
> 
> Group A judges prefer Group A to C..and so forth. Is this what you are saying? And, if this is the case, then why not try to change it so its fair for everyone.


----------



## carmspack

because it is what it is -- they are virtually 3 different breeds under one banner

it has to be Canto again because that is the back massing on most are on Canto , very intensely line and inbred .

Canto was a pivotal dog which helped create the split.

There are or were other lines - 
this one for reference
Originally Posted by *carmspack*  
_Cliff and others . Here is the show line male that was of interest to me . I believe this pedigree would have been useful to working and show line breeders . V Konrad von den zwei Loewen  [URL="http://abuse.verticalscope.com/report/index.php?referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.germanshepherds.com%2Fforum%2Fforum%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D481665%26amp%3Bpage%3D5&imageurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn1.pedigreedatabase.com%2Fpictures%2F122293.jpg"]Report this image[/URL]

got permission to use copy of information I had sent to the person who introduced me to Konrad by way of the request to look in to a pedigree . By copying here it saves me a lot of time -- 

"I actually quite like Konrad .
Beautiful structure . More like the dogs of the Dingo v h Gero era . Balanced. His work report seems quite good. 
A friend and I used to play 'what if' games.
What if the WGSL's had gone with Quanto , (instead of Canto) used Mutz and Marko , would the WGSL's be significantly different. It is my belief that this would be the case . I think Canto and the inbreeding on him spoiled things forever.
Quanto was a strong dog and did produce sound working dogs. 
In the late 70's I saw quite a few Quanto progeny , sons of Lasso div al Sole , alta Quercia dogs .
Konrad does bring in Kai Silberbrand (Marko / herding ) and the old Kirschental herding genetics. (through Rikkor) 
Fanto Hirschel -- I believe was appreciated for good strong character. I am not talking about the crazy reactive stuff -- just good dependable serviceability. Not specialized , versatility.
Fanto had movement that could match Dingo Gero . Produced good hips . Produced good character and temperament . Was able to put this stamp on two or three generations past his immediate appearance in a pedigree.

　When you look at the pedigree of Fanto you see the Quanto / Mutz combination .
Ex Pari is a litter mate of Enno Pari -- which I have deliberately salted in some pedigrees. Enno is on quite a few "hard" working dogs . This is going to some "old" blood.
Through Donix Busecker Schloss you have two touches to Faust Busecker Schloss , man , that's good . Faust's sire Onyx Forellenbach is a source for super tracking dogs.
Faust was one of the dogs shot in WW 2 and from that day on breeder Alfred Hahn of Busecker Schloss dedicated his efforts to try to replicate this great dog. This also contributes to old working herding lines. Faust bred to a female with burg Fasanental , very old , (Norbert v Burg Fasanental).
Hahn was a "master breeder" . It would serve to study his pedigrees to understand the intellectual side of planning . 
All this on Jenny v Grosen Sand , paternal grand mother of Fanto Hirschel.
Veus Ecclesia Nova , brings Mike Stalhammer son of pivotal dog for Hahn , Valet Busecker Schloss. 
Still working within the Konrad portion of the pedigree , you also have connections to old herding lines . Eiko Kirschental , "gone over to the showlines" (and I saw him) does have Xitta Kirschental as his mother and if you follow her mother line she goes to Isa whose sire is the great Eros Busecker Schloss , which brings in Bernd Lierberg and the Wurtemburg herding dogs , and Zita Kirschental going back to consolidate the old Kirschental.
OLD Kirschental was the real deal .
*added material *
Todays Kirschental is marketing OR looking at it with a positive approach , Kirschental is one of the breeders that "may" have show lines that can work -- a lot of the old shepherds said he sold out -- they are trial dogs -- now . Study the Isa pedigree. 
Nimi Kirchental with her great dam , was probably the point where there was a sell out . 
I don't like Asslan Klammle at all. A Canto son. I would say typical of Canto temperament. I saw him . Close contact . Dog somehow got loose during a specialty show and everyone suspended the show (I was handling that day) to catch him . He just ran and ran and ran . 
Part of the attraction and buzz was people talking about how much the guy had spent for the dog ! Later to go select champion. He could move .
Asslan's best litter was the N litter (Nimi) Kirschental.

I don't know why Fuller would go to Asslan ???

Through Qualle Wattenscheid you go back to Knolle vd Hain. OLD herding .
Claudius Hain part of the "wurtemberger" herding stock -- the other being Junker Nassau.
If my friend and breeding partner , Ruth , who had my Carmspack dogs as her foundation, and who liked to bring in some show (for her purposes) AS LONG AS IT WORKED and was sound , approached me and asked would I agree to bring in Konrad to the lines I would say YES. 
I would go to him directly. Of course that can't be done . But I would not be adverse to the idea at all."

I believe Trienzbachtal has had a good reputation in show line dogs with the ability to do good work._


__________________
Carmen

**********


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## Gwenhwyfair

I think I need to post more pics of V rated WLs. I found a lot more. 

Some really nice dogs out there!! 


Nah, off to the chat room.


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## carmspack

A folder that I started already exists for examples of WL's with show ratings - V's 

they surely do not look anything like the V's or VA's of show lines .

representatives from all groups of GSD http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/175652-good-conformation-folder-4.html

if you have more that are not on the list - do add them


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## Gwenhwyfair

carmspack said:


> A folder that I started already exists for examples of WL's with show ratings - V's
> 
> they surely do not look anything like the V's or VA's of show lines .
> 
> representatives from all groups of GSD http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/175652-good-conformation-folder-4.html
> 
> if you have more that are not on the list - do add them


Agree, they do have differences. As I've said before and probably will again, German Shepherds the most complicated breed in the world. 

I surely will add!


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## Debanneball

Lost me again ladies. I try to keep up, but now V and VA...


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## martemchik

VA, V, SG, G...are groupings in the SV show ring. VA is the highest...and then down.

At any show, you can have as many dogs placed in each grouping as a judge feels is necessary. And in each grouping the dogs are ranked by number. So a dog that is VA3, came in 3rd in the VA class (best class) so it is technically the 3rd place dog. But...a V3, isn't the 3rd place dog, that depends on how many dogs were in the VA class. So the V's placing is the number + the number of dogs in the VA class.

It's basically a "class" system that says, this group of dogs is excellent, this group is great, this group is good, this group is alright...ect.

It's highly unlikely that a WL would ever get a VA...those are usually your WGSL...black/red dogs. It's not impossible to get a V though.

Again, you have to also take into perspective at what kind of show the rating was achieved.


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## Debanneball

I think maybe I need to go to a show, and get a book.. 101 dog show for dummies (thats me)!


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## martemchik

Join a club...seriously...just join a club. It's way too complicated to figure out by reading or just seeing it. There are classes (age groups) and then the winners go up against each other, and then there's other stuff that goes on. It's extremely confusing, and not really talked about/announced as its going on. Unless you understand what you're looking at, you'll just leave more confused than you came!


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## lhczth

VA is only awarded at a Sieger show with a VA at the German Seiger show being far more important than at any others. V is excellent, SG very good, G good, S sufficient. A dog must have a minimum of a G in order to breed under the SV (German GSD club) system. 

There have been WL dogs that V'd at modern Sieger shows, but none that went VA in a very long long time.


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## cliffson1

Anybody that says WL are shut out of conformation ring is misleading people. Anyone saying WL are successful in conformation ring are fooling themselves also. There are WL dogs with V ratings, but they are "almost" always at the end of the V ratings whether it is Seiger, Regional, or Club show. Especially if you have German Judge. So yes there are hundreds of V rated WL, but thousands and thousands of Black and red. You will very very seldom see any go VA, or even place high in Landesgruppen ( regional) shows. Yes, they can attain the coveted " V", but almost exclusively at end of V ratings for group. Maybe this will clear the ambiguity.


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## Liesje

Another thing to note is that VA dogs are supposed to have at least three generations of breed surveyed dogs. Many working lines do breed surveys, but not with the consistency of show lines. I'm not advocating for more breed surveys and I won't get into whether I think they are important, I'm just saying that differences in aesthetics and type aside, most WL dogs cannot go VA even if they are a unanimous favorite. Also, VA dogs show progeny groups and are being rated as much on how they have produced (and how their progeny has rated in conformation shows) than themselves. It is exceedingly rare to see a progeny group for a WL dog presented, even at smaller shows.


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## cliffson1

That is correct about progeny group being important for VA, but Javir was shown at Seiger show with a progeny group that got a standing ovation, yet he only got like V57..... He should have gone VA just because of the improvement in nerve and temperament notwithstanding strengthening the gene pool of VA dogs. But the interest in really improving temperament is not as important as other cosmetic things. Just stating the facts.


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## Liesje

Agree. He was the WL I was thinking of with a progeny group. I've never seen any in person at the shows I've been to in the US. Would be nice to see a Boy von Zorra one, he has many nice progeny now, many of whom are shown and could be surveyed.

I am not defending the process or the criteria (far from it, I could rant on for hours), but it is what it is. For a SL to place on the podium at a national level Schutzhund trial, they have to beat all the other dogs with their scores. They don't get a head start because they are SL. So for a WL to earn a VA rating they're going to need to demonstrate a progeny group (probably to the judge judging the Sieger show, if not at the Sieger show), have progeny that are being shown, and have a pedigree full of breed surveyed dogs just like the other VA contenders do.


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## gsdsar

In recent history, has there ever been a VA WL, say within the last 15 years?


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## Vandal

No, the last time a working line dog was VA was, ( I believe), Frei v.d. Gugge in 1970.

As for the rest about shows. I few years back I entered a number of my dogs in shows and breed surveys. There are huge problems in the process now....where the distain shown to working line dogs is more than a little obvious. I watched judges turning their backs while working line dogs went around the ring and then they were promptly placed at the end of the line and never looked at again. The dogs who were correct size were criticized for lacking secondary sex characteristics.....not masculine enough compared to the Shetland Pony ahead of him in line. In breed surveys it was basically the same thing. Show line dogs not hit with the stick during the bitework, while working lines of course were worked correctly. Creative measuring by the club putting on the trial, ( the judge is supposed to measure the dogs but who follows rules?), so dogs who were way too big were listed as being within standard.
As someone who went to those things not expecting much, it really wore me out to be treated with such disrespect by show judges from Germany. I can handle someone honestly critiquing my dog...I have eyes and already know what he looks like.....but the rudeness and the comments based on how incorrect the others dogs were, was just very difficult to digest. After watching the show dogs getting three chances to “grip” the helper with just his front teeth, ( after only friendly gestures from the helper), letting go repeatedly when the stick was raised but then still receive a KKL1 rating, (recommended for breeding).............while all the dogs with more correct temperament were KKL 2.....I decided those events were just not for me. 
Something about being honest and expecting the same behavior from others got in the way of attending anymore of those. I have been to real breed surveys years ago. What is happening now is a disgrace but I understand everyone needs to keep the lie going. I just never thought, when I first started, that it would ever get to the way things are now.


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## martemchik

Gwenhwyfair said:


> A lot of subjectivity in sport venue judging too.
> 
> The only truly objective sports are those winners determined by a stop watch or measuring tape, speed events or distance.
> 
> Again the point is the idea that WLs are completely shunned in conformation isn't true.


Wanted to add something to this since I've thought about it...

The difference in the sport venue is that the judge does a critique of each animal. The judge basically says all the reasons points were taken away in each area for the whole crowd (who watched the trial) to hear. If "funny" things occur, people will notice. Sure...you can't argue too much about a point here, or a point there. But if you notice a large discrepancy, things can be done about it. Maybe not that day, or about the points given, but the judge will probably not get invited back, people will hear about the judge not being very objective, and people won't want to trial under that judge. So its kind of in that judge's best interest to be as fair as possible.

In a conformation show...judges don't make comments on the dogs. There is no getting into their heads and they don't need to give a reason why dog 1 beat out dog 2. Things like what vandal described aren't questioned because people are afraid to step on anyone's toes and in that venue...you need to be on the good side of people/judges. Unfortunately, it's just inherently more political and dependent on how others might feel about not just the dog, but the handler, and the owner.

In a performance venue, the judge might not like you, might not give you points to win, but if you accomplish everything the level asks, the judge has no choice but to pass you and grant you a leg or a title.


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## Vandal

The judge usually critiques the dogs in the show and for sure in the Breed Survey.
I have lots of stories about shenanigans at trials....that venue is not immune...at all. 
Certainly, there were always small "gifts" given to certain dogs and handlers but it has evolved into outright cheating. No, not all trials but enough of it goes on to taint the whole enchilada. Sad evolution from what it once was.


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## martemchik

True, I have heard some bad stories about sport trials as well.


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## counter

"Hello, my name is Nara! Remember me? What's your name?"


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## counter

So please keep the information coming. I'm sure I'm not the only one reading and following the conversation about show and working conformation. This is all very interesting to me. I've been getting so caught up in following this thread, THAT I FORGOT I'M THE ORIGINATOR OF IT! Ha. Thus, my funny picture of Nara to remind myself that this thread started because of her.

I went looking for more recent pics of her since she's been on the diet. We don't have too many, but this is what I found:


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## Debanneball

She's beautiful!


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## Gwenhwyfair

martemchik said:


> True, I have heard some bad stories about sport trials as well.


(Thank you Anne.)

My friend, I may not be a dog expert but I've been around enough sport and show venues for cats, to horses, to dogs, 4H and others over my years. I've been a ring steward at horse shows and a scribe at dressage shows and if there is one consistent truism - some judges are biased and many times someone who looses whines about it even when there was no bias.


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## lhczth

VA Wanko v.d Maaraue went VA in 1981. He may have been the last. 

Javir was actually used by show line people. I trained with a daughter from one of these breedings when I was over there. They told me just how difficult it was to get that progeny group together. Preparing for the Sieger show is almost a full time job and most working people don't want to take away from their regular training. I know Javir's owners spent HOURS once per week just in ring conditioning with their handler. It isn't just regular conditioning. And, no matter what we all might think, the working structure just isn't show line structure and why would we want it to be. Like Anne, I just want a fair assessment and fair treatment and all dogs to see the same work.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Btw...I'm understand we're talking about the structure and breed standard of the GSD and have always agreed that extremes in SLs or WLs aren't good.....

But stepping back and speaking generally about the size of dogs, my first IPO trainer competed and titled rotties.

So....again not saying or wanting GSDs to be that big, just that larger dogs can compete and achieve titles.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Pic of Wanko.

Wow.


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## carmspack

exactly "And, no matter what we all might think, the working structure just isn't show line structure and why would we want it to be"

It is functional . Closer to a "natural" canine .


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## carmspack

https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=1725-wanko-von-der-maaraue

today ? He would probably be the only dog in the ring (SV Sieger show) that had a smooth forward reach with shoulder opening and strong rear drive . His head would be level with his back.

No goose stepping, no hackneyed air chopping .

AND I bet you anything the temperament and potential for work is different .

I have Wanko in my pedigrees .


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## Gwenhwyfair

Some times being an outsider gives one a different perspective. I hear different sides. In my travels through the serious GSD world there's more disagreement between WL breeders about what the ideal structure is, then amongst SL folks.

Just saying.....


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## Gwenhwyfair

Yeah but there are a lot of WLs that look a lot different then him as well.

WL folks are not above nailing each other.....kennel blindness exists everywhere.



carmspack said:


> https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=1725-wanko-von-der-maaraue
> 
> today ? He would probably be the only dog in the ring (SV Sieger show) that had a smooth forward reach with shoulder opening and strong rear drive . His head would be level with his back.
> 
> No goose stepping, no hackneyed air chopping .
> 
> AND I bet you anything the temperament and potential for work is different .
> 
> I have Wanko in my pedigrees .


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## martemchik

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Btw...I'm understand we're talking about the structure and breed standard of the GSD and have always agreed that extremes in SLs or WLs aren't good.....
> 
> But stepping back and speaking generally about the size of dogs, my first IPO trainer competed and titled rotties.
> 
> So....again not saying or wanting GSDs to be that big, just that larger dogs can compete and achieve titles.


Of course they can compete...but they don't excel at it. And if you translate it to real work (K9/military) the larger dogs are at a disadvantage. There's a reason that large breeds aren't used in the military, and size is one of the big reasons that the military has now included malanois into their program. Smaller dog, faster dog, more agile dog, less food, less poop, healthier due to less stress on the joints...and can take down a man just as easily (if not better) than a larger dog.

The breed standard was written like that for a reason. There was a rhyme and reason to it. I have seen dogs at around 90-95lbs work pretty well and hit hard. It was impressive. But when they get bigger than that...you start to lose a lot of the power and speed...and the large hit is clearly just a product of the dogs huge body. I think when you see it, you get it more.


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## martemchik

I just want a moderate dog that doesn't have any crippling issues due to its conformation. Basically 95% of WL dogs would fit that description. I don't think it really affects my dog's working ability that much that his croup is a bit too short and his lower leg might be a bit too upright. Sure...I see how a "better" conformation would help, but it's not the end of the world.

Things like weak/down pasterns, or bones that are too long which cause the stride to clearly be affected or weak...that's an issue. But most things, meh.

The biggest problem I have with the various breed rings is that the goal of conformation is to judge the working structure of the dog which allows it to accomplish it's job in the most efficient matter...but most of the judges, have never worked a dog in their life, so they have no idea what kind of working structure is necessary. And yeah...when it comes to the GSD, I'm talking about herding lol!


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## Vandal

What I am discussing is not simple bias but you go ahead and ignore the details and tell yourself whatever you want. No working line dog owner goes into a show and expects to "win", that has been long established. 
I'm not a "people expert" but I know the majority go along to get along, so have no fear, all of it will remain the same.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Yeah I know. It was a general observation. That's why I say you don't see St Bernard's as police K9s

Though I think size isn't the only strike against rotties, longevity would be a problem too. I think they could fill some roles.

I can imagine after investing that much time and training a dog that will only live to be ten or eleven with an even shorter working life isn't worth it.



martemchik said:


> Of course they can compete...but they don't excel at it. And if you translate it to real work (K9/military) the larger dogs are at a disadvantage. There's a reason that large breeds aren't used in the military, and size is one of the big reasons that the military has now included malanois into their program. Smaller dog, faster dog, more agile dog, less food, less poop, healthier due to less stress on the joints...and can take down a man just as easily (if not better) than a larger dog.
> 
> The breed standard was written like that for a reason. There was a rhyme and reason to it. I have seen dogs at around 90-95lbs work pretty well and hit hard. It was impressive. But when they get bigger than that...you start to lose a lot of the power and speed...and the large hit is clearly just a product of the dogs huge body. I think when you see it, you get it more.


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## Vandal

Here's something for those who don't really understand but seem to have lots to say anyway. The purpose of the show and especially Breed Surveys is to keep a record of the dogs. That was to help breeders make good decisions about breeding. When you lie about the dog's size or you make it so even the weakest dog can pass, that record becomes worthless. Yes, people love the letters after the name but there was a real purpose that has now been completely lost.


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## Gwenhwyfair

I was agreeing with you and thanked you. I also have agreed that WLs do NOT achieve top rating in conformation. Therefore I am not ignoring anything.

So what's the problem here?????

I added to the other dimension of bias, which does exist.

Bias is not simple, it's a complex and frankly annoying aspect of human behavior.

Humans do *not* operate in a meritocracy.








Vandal said:


> What I am discussing is not simple bias but you go ahead and ignore the details and tell yourself whatever you want. No working line dog owner goes into a show and expects to "win", that has been long established.
> I'm not a "people expert" but I know the majority go along to get along, so have no fear, all of it will remain the same.


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## lhczth

There is a definite bias. At least the judge/körmeister I showed Deja and Elena under was fair, gave a good critique and gave equal time to all of the dogs, show and working.


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## Gwenhwyfair

So what have I said, specifically that is factually incorrect?


That WL folks have disagreements among themselves?

That WLS can get and do get confromation titles (V SG)?

That no, WLs don't make it to the top?

I am not saying anything specific about pedigrees or temperament for a reason.

Let's just put it this way WL people aren't perfect either.





Vandal said:


> Here's something for those who don't really understand but seem to have lots to say anyway. The purpose of the show and especially Breed Surveys is to keep a record of the dogs. That was to help breeders make good decisions about breeding. When you lie about the dog's size or you make it so even the weakest dog can pass, that record becomes worthless. Yes, people love the letters after the name but there was a real purpose that has now been completely lost.


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## lhczth

I have several of the Kör books that USCA put out in the late 90's. Even by that point they were becoming worthless. Except for reporting missing teeth all of the survey's read the same. Every once in awhile you would see a favorable working comment, but for the most part, nothing of any value. Too bad.


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## Gwenhwyfair

lhczth said:


> There is a definite bias. At least the judge/körmeister I showed Deja and Elena under was fair, gave a good critique and gave equal time to all of the dogs, show and working.


Lisa I found this to be true in the dressage world. Some judges only liked warm bloods. Show up with a quarter horse and you were already faulted.

I hated it too. Being a scribe and listening to judges I learned a lot and some of it not good.


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## counter

I just got home from work, but have to go back to work in 6 hours. Yay! I am going to bed now.

I noticed this thread has like 3,000 views, so many people are reading and following and (hopefully) learning from the discussion.

*I beg that, while I'm sleeping (and beyond), you guys keep discussing and educating us in a civil manner.*

I would be crushed to wake up and find that my thread I started about my Nara got locked. So far everyone is getting along, even if we don't see eye to eye. This has been a healthy dialogue. Please keep it healthy. You are helping everyone understand just a little bit more with each reply.

*If my thread gets locked out because of me, that's one thing. If my thread gets locked out because of others, I would not be very happy.*

Thank you again for teaching us by passing on your knowledge and experiences.


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## carmspack

"In my travels through the serious GSD world there's more disagreement between WL breeders about what the ideal structure is, then amongst SL folks."

That may be a good thing -- open mind , not buying some thing hook line and sinker . Why in the SL's are there not any alternative lines , such as the one I have offered many times. Why does it all go back to one dog? 

Non-conformity . 
You want to win kids, you want the money share ? Well you got to be like this xxxxxxx and you got to be black and red . 

Bah .

"I also have agreed that WLs do NOT achieve top rating in conformation."

They can not . The difference is as if they were two separate breeds.

here it is on public record --- If I ever produced a dog that was similar to the SV's elite group of Sieger winners -- I would give that dog's owner a full 100% refund . 
And I would be very critical of the "fresh" blood that I have brought into my program.

100% refund -- because it is just wrong .


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## Gwenhwyfair

So I get about the VA and said already agreed that working lines don't make it to the top. 

But still there's plenty of V and SG rated working lines out there.

So while I believe there is bias, what I am questioning is, is it really THAT pervasive?

Here's the thing, you don't need to be a 30 year expert to learn what V and SG ratings mean and then look which dogs have them.

So what is the problem here? Is it because of no VA dogs since Wanko?


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## Gwenhwyfair

carmspack said:


> "In my travels through the serious GSD world there's more disagreement between WL breeders about what the ideal structure is, then amongst SL folks."
> 
> That may be a good thing -- open mind , not buying some thing hook line and sinker . Why in the SL's are there not any alternative lines , such as the one I have offered many times. Why does it all go back to one dog?
> 
> Non-conformity .
> You want to win kids, you want the money share ? Well you got to be like this xxxxxxx and you got to be black and red .
> 
> Bah .
> 
> "I also have agreed that WLs do NOT achieve top rating in conformation."
> 
> They can not . The difference is as if they were two separate breeds.
> 
> here it is on public record --- If I ever produced a dog that was similar to the SV's elite group of Sieger winners -- I would give that dog's owner a full 100% refund .
> And I would be very critical of the "fresh" blood that I have brought into my program.
> 
> 100% refund -- because it is just wrong .


Actually I agree with you about the open minded thing Carmen. So yeah bah!

If it's the no VA since Wanko that rankles o.k. But you know what speaking of open minded maybe that's a good thing too. Really for me, I would rather a dog have a respectable showing and bring other good qualities to the table too. It's not an all or nothing in the breed worthiness of a dog.

Also I'd like to point out while I may annoy the bejesus out of you guys, I am fair if anything.


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## Gwenhwyfair

*sigh*. 

I've been here long enough to know that isn't likely.

Best to just stay in chat....where I belong. 

Here I was being mostly positive about WLs to boot. Oh well.




counter said:


> I just got home from work, but have to go back to work in 6 hours. Yay! I am going to bed now.
> 
> I noticed this thread has like 3,000 views, so many people are reading and following and (hopefully) learning from the discussion.
> 
> *I beg that, while I'm sleeping (and beyond), you guys keep discussing and educating us in a civil manner.*
> 
> I would be crushed to wake up and find that my thread I started about my Nara got locked. So far everyone is getting along, even if we don't see eye to eye. This has been a healthy dialogue. Please keep it healthy. You are helping everyone understand just a little bit more with each reply.
> 
> *If my thread gets locked out because of me, that's one thing. If my thread gets locked out because of others, I would not be very happy.*
> 
> Thank you again for teaching us by passing on your knowledge and experiences.


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## martemchik

From my POV...everyone posting is basically in agreement...not sure where the disagreement would come from.

It all boils down to what you care about. If a VA = 296 points. Then a V is 290. And a SG is 280. Some people care about IPO scores, others care about their dog looking like a certain type. You'll always have differing opinions of what's important.

I think the key is getting out there, seeing both sides, and figuring out what matters more to you. Then working towards that and trying to SHOW others why it's more important rather than just talking about it and bad mouthing the other side.


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## Gwenhwyfair

martemchik said:


> From my POV...everyone posting is basically in agreement...not sure where the disagreement would come from.
> 
> It all boils down to what you care about. If a VA = 296 points. Then a V is 290. And a SG is 280. Some people care about IPO scores, others care about their dog looking like a certain type. You'll always have differing opinions of what's important.
> 
> I think the key is getting out there, seeing both sides, and figuring out what matters more to you. Then working towards that and trying to SHOW others why it's more important rather than just talking about it and bad mouthing the other side.


Where the disagreement comes from is some have taken a disliking to me and therefore have a bias and don't give me credit or maybe read when I am agreeing with them or make a fair point.

I don't know about Wanko beyond what Lisa posted but I can tell you, even though I'm not a dog conformation expert that dog is just wow. I do not say that often about WLs or SLs.

Good post Martemchik.

And with that...I'll go be annoying elsewhere.


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## Vandal

> _I think the key is getting out there, seeing both sides, and figuring out what matters more to you. Then working towards that and trying to SHOW others why it's more important rather than just talking about it and bad mouthing the other side._


This has nothing to do with bad mouthing the other side. There shouldn’t BE another side. This is about people who have perverted a very effective system to serve themselves. It’s a question of the BREED, not what “matters to someone” who doesn’t know much about it. 

I understand your way of viewing things is how most operate but some of us saw it when it was working and we saw and worked the dogs as well. There is no point in “showing others” when the people who are in charge of maintaining the integrity of the system, are failing to do so in a very big way.


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## Susan_GSD_mom

carmspack said:


> "I also have agreed that WLs do NOT achieve top rating in conformation."
> 
> They can not . The difference is as if they were two separate breeds.
> .


I want to make a comparison here, and hope that I don't kill this thread, because it's a reference to horses. With horses, the "color breeds"--palomino, pinto, appaloosa, etc., can be any bloodline, but if the color is approved, then they can be registered. (Everything I am stating was true up through the early 90's, don't know about now). Example--within the appaloosa breed, most of the breeders bred for a quarter horse conformation--high, extremely muscled hindquarters, low head carriage, blocky head, etc. While I was showing Arabs, we showed at a number of all breed shows, and often would encounter a man who showed a gorgeous appaloosa stallion, who was from mainly Thoroughbred stock, not quarter horse. I am not a fan of the color breeds, but I would have given my eye teeth for that horse--so correct in conformation, a beautiful blanket, I fully expected him to take the stallion championship for appies. He didn't even place. The man told us that out on the west coast he always placed very high with him, but in the midwest and the south, the judges never looked at him because of his conformation. They had decided that the appaloosa should look like a quarter horse with spots and so they were totally blind to this gorgeous animal, didn't even see him. The man said that was the last time we would see him, he would stay out on the west coast with him.

It sounds to me like the same thing is going on with the SL vs. WL GSDs.

Susan


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## björn

If the most functional dogs are not promoted in shows why is it important to even care about showing your dog, is it even possible to just look at a dog to see which have perfect structure that will make it last the longest. I prefer a GSD that is as natural(wolflike) as possible in structure because I would guess that is how a functional dog should be built. These dogs I think look good, straight backs and not too much angualtion, the first a bit to stocky maybe but I like his general compact build and I don´t see any of these dogs needs to look much different as far as structure goes, or?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PT8pHSV5nWo#t=82

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-u6lAHvLauk&list=UUh1WoSbYwXTv8VB5y2UA4vQ


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## Vandal

As I suspected and predicted, instead of just ignoring it, someday they would simply re-write it.
This is the part about temperament and what traits are necessary in the GSD from the original VDH standard:
*Character
*The German Shepherd should appear poised, calm, self confident, absolutely at ease, and (except when agitated) good natured, but also attentive and willing to serve. He must have courage, fighting drive, and hardness in order to serve as companion, watchdog, protection dog, service dog, and herding dog. 

This is what appears on the UScA web site:

*Character*
The German Shepherd Dog must be well-balanced (with strong nerves) in terms of character, self-assured, absolutely natural and (except for a stimulated situation) good-natured as well as attentive and willing to please. He must possess instinctive behaviour, resilience and self-assurance in order to be suitable as a companion, guard, protection, service and herding dog.

Notice what has replaced "courage, hardness and fighting drive". Dog's can't be agitated anymore, they are stimulated.... No one really cares but it is disturbing to see a working dog organization water down the character section like this. Words matter.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Funny this topic came up. Just got back from an SV show. It was amusing watching the antics of the handler's helper to get the slugs to show a little animation as they went around the ring.
The place was more packed then most working trials are. As I watched the black and red doggies go around and around I wondered to myself why is that?

Then it came to me. Any idiot can do this. 

There were working lines there too. They were sent to the back of the line were they belonged. At the end of each class the judge explained why the crippled bear dogs beat out the clean muscled well proportioned dog and eveybody clapped.

Why should I care about a standard that allows for that?


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## glowingtoadfly

I was on the dog forums when I noticed a curious phenomenon...


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## cliffson1

The last sable to go VA was Timo, who was VA 2 twice, around 2000, many said he should have been Seiger but that WAS not going to happen. Very seldom a dog goes VA2 twice.....he was SCH 111 FH 2 and definitely helped in temperament. But he was sold overseas.


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## carmspack

vandal , bjorn , blitzkrieg ! YES 

exactly the point .

Exactly the talking point on a recent drive -- Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs the illustration is a wolf - with coat removed to appreciate the conformation better - taken from a slow motion video of a real animal . 
This is a part of a larger article that should appear shortly in Das Schaferhund Magazin --- in German and English , and I believe in Schutzhund USA (?).
Book coming out shortly 

Wanko Maarue - as an example , stood at stud at a dear friend's of mine -- Joe Kuhn . He wasn't much appreciated . Joe did a few breedings and then after the year was out , the dog returned to Germany.

Time might be off , but I seem to remember this was in the mid-80's , and Uran Wildsteiger Land was setting the whelping pens on fire . As I said timing might be off .


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## carmspack

Timo was a beautiful male . If you recall the audience booed when the dog was in the ring . He was sable SHOW LINE , can't have that can we? Remember talking to Lanting on one of his Canadian visits -- said his temperament was very good . 

a son of Wanko - V Baron de Lupis Fidis https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=17865-baron-de-lupis-fidis

Only thing I would change is that the middle toes of the front foot not be as long --


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## counter

So logic would tell me that there are 2 extremes: the SL and WL people at each end of the spectrum. However, I would like to believe that the MAJORITY of GSD people are somewhere in the middle: people that agree that this WORKING BREED should be shown for conformation and should still have the ability to work, titling somewhere in BOTH areas. So from that logic, shouldn't the bulk of the GSD people be the MAJORITY and be in control of the future of the breed? Their voice (the 80%-ers!!!) would be much louder than the 10% at one end and the 10% at the other (if the extremes are even 10%; they might be less [or more? I hope not]. I'm just making up hypothetical numbers to aid my example).

Both sides should be working together, instead of adding further division as time goes on. The only one to suffer will be this breed, these dogs that we love so much. Like someone already mentioned, we're heading towards 2 separate breeds instead of 1 GSD. It's sad. There has to be something that can be done. The eighty percenters (yes, I made that up) hold the power! Or do they?

I think it's time for OCCUPY SV and OCCUPY AKC! 80%-ers UNITE!!! People, are you with me!?!?!

(this could get fun...or not!)


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## Gwenhwyfair

Not Counter.

But you make a good point, if you don't like something then do something about it or accept it.

Speaking of Showline sables going VA, recently.....


VA Waiko vom Schaumbergerland. Sire of Ash's litter. 

I love his dam Polara VA3 also sable. 

https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=567837-waiko-vom-schaumbergerland


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## Nigel

My wife was getting Ranger (Czech WL) and Ollie's (WGSL) dinner ready, Ranger had Fromm with pieces of beef and Ollie had Fromm with something else. I ask, what is it? She replied "hot dogs", hot dogs?? Why? She replies he doesn't like beef, huh...? So let me get this straight, working lines eat beef and Show lines eat weenies? She chuckled a bit before hitting me.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Ha! 

As I was reading some of the posts I was going to add 'resistance is futile you will be assimilated' but to many here this is a very, very, very serious matter.







Nigel said:


> My wife was getting Ranger (Czech WL) and Ollie's (WGSL) dinner ready, Ranger had Fromm with pieces of beef and Ollie had Fromm with something else. I ask, what is it? She replied "hot dogs", hot dogs?? Why? She replies he doesn't like beef, huh...? So let me get this straight, working lines eat beef and Show lines eat weenies? She chuckled a bit before hitting me.


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## counter

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Ha!
> 
> As I was reading some of the posts I was going to add 'resistance is futile you will be assimilated' but to many here this is a very, very, very serious matter.


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## martemchik

Counter, a lot comes down to simple economics. Time and money... 

Those of us who train for performance venues, don't have the time or the money to be shoving our dogs into weekend shows where they won't win or get any necessary special recognition. 

You also have to realize that the 80% you speak of is more than likely the "pet owner" group which really doesn't affect the breed as much. It's the other two groups that are doing the breeding and showing...so they have the control no matter what.


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## carmspack

these are pretty much two separate breeds.

" the 10% at one end and the 10% at the other (if the extremes are even 10%"

that is not the division , not 10% at one and 10% at the other. And it was the SV , the Presidents of the official national club that caused the rift . 
Walter Martin of Wienerau History - Zwinger von der Wienerau
Berta source of the deep red coloration and temperament problems . Setting , establishing a new standard.

You have to remember that this is gross national product --
big money . SV show brings in revenue , tourists , sales .
Big sales in tens of thousands for sales to eager buyers who want a piece of the action - whether the dogs are good or not . A bit cynical. 

In the mid 90's (?) (may be somewhat later) it was decided that the Sieger show and the BSP and the Police trials were no longer held within the same time frame , nor at the same facilities . No cross contamination .


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## carmspack

think about it 


*What type of construction guarantees stamina in the German Shepherd Dog *​ * By Herr Walter Rügamer S. V. (Körmeister)*​ (Translated by Peter De Decker).​ 






 The dog has three basic types of movement; walk, trot and the gallop. The amble can take place during the walk and trot. Although ambling enhances stamina, it is not a true type of movement. On average our dog will walk less than it will trot.
The fastest type of movement, the gallop will with free living wild dogs play a lesser important role. The closest ancestors of our dogs to mention the jackal, hyena and the coyote manage large distances with stamina and not with speed. For these animals the trot is the most important type of movement. For a wolf size-hunting animal It is not that easy to find adequate food in a few square kilometers and therefore it has to frequently cover distances of 100 km in one night.
The German Shepherd Dog has, up to now retained the most genuine construction of its ancestors, the trotter construction, which has been in many respects further perfected through systematic breeding. This beautiful type of a construction is aimed at economy of power..
The breed standard for instance calls for the construction of a non-tiring trotter which, with the least amount of effort delivers the highest degree of performance. Stephanitz describes this concept: "as the economy of power".
Now I would like to mention some important factors, which enhance the stamina of the German Shepherd Dog and for simplicity, they are in the sequence of judging.
Firstly, in general, some remarks regarding the locomotive mechanism of the dog.
This comprises:


The passive locomotion mechanism, which comprises the bones and the joint ligaments which support the organism and creates its shape. 
 

The active locomotion mechanism, which consists of muscles of the skeleton and its tendons. It makes the deliberate body movement possible. On the one hand, the muscles are designed for quick, instant action and on the other hand, they are also designed to cope with enduring work resulting in overall balanced and supple movement which should save energy. 
 It is therefore necessary that the skeleton provides for the correct position of the limbs as well as the movement of joints and that it incorporates large levers in order to save muscles energy. For example, the longer the levers whilst within the breed standard, to which the muscles are attached and the better the angulation of these limbs, the higher one should rate (in theory) the working ability of the dog.
In the same way as the passive and active locomotive mechanism compliment each other, the overall picture of our dog should be balanced e.g., each body part should be in the proportion to the total body complex. When all individual parts and also the support columns (legs) fit together in an evenly manner one can say, "a thoughtful and purposeful constructed body on the basis of harmony and symmetry guarantees the best development of power and stamina".
Exercise and work require a determined measure of size and strength.
With an increased height, the body weight increases considerably and requires more from the muscles to the detriment of muscle power available for movement. The body height therefore has a negative effect on the performance. Dogs that are too large and too heavy carry too much "dead" weight. They stop, climb and jump poorly. In addition, they are often less keen to work as they tire too quickly. Performance will be even more effected when the additional height is caused by "upright movement" as a result of poor front and hind angulation, the forereach will be binding and the length of stride will be restricted. With an incorrect chest construction there is too little space for the internal organs and under stamina the performance will visibly suffer. A dog, which is too small, even when it is well proportioned, lacks strength. Although fast and agile, it is too light in construction and possesses too little stamina. When such animals in addition also have legs that are too short, the chest will be very deep, and in movement these dogs will cover too little ground.
Only the German Shepherd Dog of a good medium size 63cm for males and 58 cm for bitches measured at the withers can count on agility, speed and especially stamina.
The correct size working dog requires the correct "strength" in the bones and muscles. The outer shape of our dog depends more on the positioning, size and shape of the bones, than anything else. If all these prerequisites are present these dogs are extremely well equipped to pass on the forwards thrust during movement
The elasticity of the bone tissue constitutes 85% of that of iron, and yet the weight of bones is only one third of the weight of iron.
The surface of the bones may be smooth and even or be uneven and show pronounced grooves, which serve to anchor muscles, ligaments and tendons. The bones should be dry and not be coarse or spongy and certainly not too fine.
Bones that are too large reduce stamina as the dog carries too much dead weight.
According to "Klatt", muscles constitute 53% of the total weight of the dog and this, amongst others, creates his working ability and it's overall appearance.
The muscles, of which the length and width are determined by the anchor point position on the bones, should be dry and firm and as should be the tendons and ligaments which keep the skeleton parts together, especially those at the joints. As our dog is not a heavy duty animal, the lever lift power of the muscle reduces at the height of leverage, that is the length to which the muscle shortens is greater than the lever arch, which in turn is also dependent on the length of the muscle strands. As a result of muscle contraction, the various connected skeleton parts make movements which can be compared with levers. In general skeleton movements are based on the principles of the of leverage.
We can therefore state "Not the thick, but the long muscles are favourable for stamina".
When we refer to the proportion of the dog, we refer to the ratio of height to length. With the correct height to length ratio all parts are in natural balance, which is maintained in stance and in movement and requires no undue muscle action.
The optimal proportioned German Shepherd Dog, possess a slightly stretched trotter’s construction of which the length exceeds the height at the withers. According to "Stroße” is the ratio of 10:9 is the best for balance and stability as well as movement and therefore stamina.
The head best expresses the type of breed, sex characteristics and character of a dog. Ear carriage, the expression in the eyes, condition of the coat and pigmentation further provides clues to the health, condition and temperament. The manner, in which the dog moves and behaves, should indicate that there is a healthy mind in a healthy body. All these factors are links in a chain and are the physical and mental conditions required for lasting stamina.
And now let us expands on those three body components that determine the degree of power: namely the hind thrust, the transfer of power over the back and the forereach*.*
The back has the role to transfer the power generated by the hindquarter action. Only a firm back can form an effective bridge type connection between the hind and forequarters. It comprises the withers, the true back and the loin. The withers are at the front part of the back. The back and shoulder muscles are connected to first dorsal vertebrae, therefore high and long withers do not only enhance the development of strong muscles which create firm shoulder joints, but also provide a broad and angulated coupling for the shoulders, a good reach and stamina.
The withers are followed by the actual back, which should be straight, strong and not too long. The spinal column of our dog is very flexible, especially the loin, as opposed to those of a horse. This is very noticeable during the gallop when the back of the dog is first strongly bent upwards and then straightened in order to make long jumps. The jumps of a greyhound in gallop are just as an example as long as those of a horse.
The thrust generated by the hindquarters is wasted in an upward or downward direction with a raised or hollow back.
Therefore, only the foregoing referred to type back can enhance stamina. Whilst we require length of withers, the loin part (7 vertebrae) should not be too long, but strong and wide. A short and stiff loin is beneficial for stamina.
The pelvic bone, together with the muscles and the coat, form the croup. This is an essential part of the hindquarters and is extremely important for stamina.
The pelvic bone should, like the shoulder blade, be long and diagonally placed. A steep, or a too short pelvic bone, reduces the stride as the back legs will be too far under the body and the thrust generated by the hindquarters will be wasted in an upward direction. When the pelvic bone is placed ( +/- 45° to the horizontal) the croup will be long and slightly sloping. It commences almost straight and then slopes into a slight arch (+/- 23º) downwards. In this way there will also be sufficient space for long and strong muscles, a pre-requisite for powerful and especially enduring hindquarter action.
With a flat croup the tail set will be high and the tail is also frequently badly carried. Poor tail carriage disturbs the topline and handicaps the dog during forward and sideward movement because the tail serves as a rudder and, when required, as a brake. This incorrectness even effects stamina. A strong dog should therefore have a powerful, well muscled in all directions, slightly flexible tail which ends approximately at the point of hock.
At the beginning I have already mentioned that, in a symmetrically constructed German Shepherd dog, all parts including the (legs) fit together in such manner that. the highest performance can be achieved. Therefore powerful hindquarters should have matching well-constructed forequarters, which can absorb the moving mass and complete the movement cycle which started at the back.
The firm connection between the legs and body is provided by the shoulder blade. Connected to it are very powerful muscles that can move it and the upper arm.
The angle of the shoulder blade should be 45° in relation to a horizontal line. According to "Solara", the shoulder blade is a flat triangular bone, which is positioned towards the front and on the outside of the ribcage at an angle from the top to the bottom and from the back to the front. It can perform several movements: forwards and up and down, inwards and outwards The shoulder blade should be long and well- developed, so that plenty of space is available for long muscles. It is only kept in position by muscles, which start at the neck, the back and the ribs and which are attached to various positions on the shoulder blade. Therefore high withers ( already mentioned) enhance powerful muscles which keep the forehand together.
With flat withers these muscles are less developed and the shoulder blade will be pushed upwards especially during movement.
As the angle of the shoulder blade is also to some extent influenced by the roundness of. the first four ribs, the ribcage also influences the shoulder angle, as the shoulder blade at the bottom deviates about 10º too 15º from a vertical line. Strongly developed ribs and the correct deepness of fore-chest of which a good piece is visible from the side are the prerequisites for a well-laid shoulder blade. The reach of the fore-step is very much influenced by a well laid shoulder blade which can, to some extent compensate for a short and steep upper arm and the dog will still show good forereach. The static function of the 1imbs however is disturbed and the animal, under prolonged exercise, will show signs of tiring.
Again, it becomes clear that in the end it is the harmonious togetherness of individual components that result in the stamina of the German Shepherd dog.
The shoulder blade should be at a right angle to the upper arm. The ideal angle, which hardly exists (it is mostly somewhat larger (115 degrees), and requires that the shoulder blade and upper arm should approximate equal length. This angle allows for a wide opening, which in turn results in far reach. The long and diagonally positioned upper arm moves the elbows and front legs further backward under the body. Here again we find the reason why , with good angulation of the shoulder blade and upper arm, together with the correct depth of chest, we should see a good piece of fore-chest when viewed from the side. Incorrect length and position of the upper arm shortens with certainty the forward reach.






 (the solid red line indicates the restricted forward reach caused by poor front angulation. By comparison the broken red line shows the reach resulting from excellent angulation.)
Frequently, animals with a short and or steep upper arm, that are well handled in the show ring show a good forereach. On closer observation, one notices however that this apparent "good" reach is fictitious. It should be noted that the point at which the feet touch the ground determines the reach. Under prolonged movement, the forereach becomes increasingly shorter.
In order to maintain a horizontal line of forwards movement with incorrect front angulation the trotter will compensate the hind reach and thrust with strong stretching of the front legs in an upwards direction. During this period of delayed front action the forwards power curve lowers in the front and moves the point of gravity in a forward and downwards direction resulting in too much body weight on the forehand. The dog "falls on the forehand". (Timing) (note: point E in the sketch below moves further down)
I have mentioned that a well laid shoulder blade can to a degree compensate for a short upper arm, although it will be at the expense of stamina as the lowering of the point of gravity requires the dog to use more power to move its front legs forward. So, again, the correct position and length of the upper arm clearly shows the impact on stamina. 
The movement commences at the hindquarters. A dog, with slightly backward placed legs, is the natural and therefore the most balanced German Shepherd. A drop line from the "pubis" or "sitting bone" should touch the ground approximately at a one finger width in front of the foot with a perpendicular (90º) placed hock. This stance points to a correctly proportioned length of about 50/50 of the thighbone and stifle that is when the thighbone and stifle are almost equal in length and correctly angled. An angle of near 90º,it is nearer to 120 degrees is in theory the best for fast and ongoing movement as only then can long muscles with a strong contraction be attached.
Slightly backward placed legs ensure a firm stance and a thrust from the hindquarters which, once more, is to the benefit of stamina. Every tendency towards over-angulation reduces the overall firmness and the static function and as the muscles perform their action at too much of a tangent in relation to the segment of the bone to which they are connected they are under too much duress and thus in turn the stamina is affected.
The hindquarters comprise the pelvic bone, thighbone, stifles, metatarsus and the skeleton bones of the feet; these are connected via the hip, knee and hock joints. The thighbone is at the top connected by the head of femur in the socket of the pelvic bone and at the bottom to the knee joint. The "hock" joint connects to the strong metatarsus, the fibia and the toe bones. The head of the femur is, likewise the hock exposed to great pressure and should be strongly developed, and this also applies to the knee joint, which starts and passes on the forward movement. The knee joint is the most important joint in the dog. Its correct position depends on the length of the thighbone and a good hind angulation as well as the length and the angle of the croup. Strong joints are a prerequisite for straight and even more so on going movement.






 (the solid red line depicts the resultant direction of the various thrust lines generated by the hindquarters)​ A further criteria, which is measured during the breed survey, is the chest depth to height ratio. This should not exceed more than half the height at the withers: 45 - 47% is the correct measurement.
A non-tiring trotter must have strongly developed inner organs like the heart and lungs. A well-developed chest space provides for these.
We talk about the fore and under-chest. With the fore-chest we mean that portion which runs from the throat to where the front legs start.
A well-constructed German Shepherd dog shows a good piece of fore-chest. This points at an well-angulated and positioned shoulder. The combination of these parts result in the desired far-reaching stride. The under-chest connects to the fore-chest and slopes gradually upwards.
The ribcage is made up of 9 pairs of real ribs joined together by the chest bone and four false ribs, connected through cartilage and the last pair is often not connected ("floating"). The further set back the last the pair is the better the width of the ribs, on which the respiration and again the stamina depends.
Especially in recent years ( 1980's), the fronts of our German Shepherd dogs have been critisised. This is certainly a problem to be addressed by our breeders in the future. A correct front seen from the front and from the side with straight, strong and long legs together with a fitting width of chest and completely closed elbows, is from nature advantageous for movement and again the stamina.
The elbows should form a firm connection between the upper and lower arm and should not turn outwards under pressure. Broad chested dogs are this way inclined. The turning out of the elbow joints is a serious working dog failure as it is almost always caused by a weakness of the ligaments. Under these conditions the muscles are now forced to return the elbows to the body and this greatly reduces stamina.
Turned in elbows is also an indication of limited working capability as the body should not be suspended on the front legs but should rather hang in between the legs.
Poor chest, especially front chest construction also restricts elbow connection. The shortened chest bone offers the chest muscles, which start there and keep the upper arm close to the ribcage, insufficient space for anchorage. They will develop poorly and will as a result of the increased distance of the upper arm be strained, as they have to return the elbows to the side of the chest with effort, which again is to the detriment of stamina.
The pastern, seen from the side, should be at an angle of approximately 20° from extended line through the lower front leg. It should have a fitting length and have fitting firmness. A dog with a steep pastern cannot absorb the impact of the front leg and with weak pasterns the dog will stumble. Both incorrect types pastern influence stamina and the animals tire earlier.
The feet of the German Shepherd dog are round, arched and closed. The pads should be strong and hard and the nails should be short and strong. Flat feet with long toes, influence stamina as these cannot absorb the impact.
Legs, which move close to the ground, parallel in the forward direction, flighty and cover ground, without wasting one centimeter clearly enhance effortless movement.
When a dog produces far reaching fore-step in correct proportion to a powerful hind thrust whilst the feet move flat forwards without wasting muscles power and without high-lifting of the front legs, it will be to the credit of stamina.
In summary, one can conclude that a German Shepherd dog, which possesses the above-described blueprint of construction in all completeness and harmony it, will perform enduring work.
Additionally it requires the drive and will to perform. This will compensate for small construction faults. The best-constructed dog means nothing when the motivation to give his last is absent.
It is for this reason that our breeders whilst preserving bloodlines, continue to strife for perfecting the construction and the willpower of our German Shepherd dogs to such an extent that our dogs can be exposed to large tasks requiring much strain and stamina with the least possible effect.
References: W. Trox, E. Orschler, Dr. Gorrieri and Bonetti,Dr Wilhelm Wegner,Mcdowell Lyon and various articles in the SV Zeitung.

 This page was last updated: 11/14/2013


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## carmspack

counter , look at your own dog , which I said was "happy , healthy , well adjusted, physically balanced dog, no exaggerations , no dysfunctional conformation "

only to be chided with "Are we looking at the same dog? 

No offense to OP - fine pet dog, but certainly not what I call physically balanced with no conformation dysfunctions."

your dog looks pretty natural -- balanced in that the rear and front are compatible . You don't have a great front with an inadequate rear , nor do you have a short straight front with too long rear with loose tendons .


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## martemchik

Carmen, I've also had an ASL breeder talk my ears off about why the movement in that ring in super efficient and how those dogs can work for days. What I realized from that was that the standard for movement, in regards to conformation, can be spun any which way depending on what the user sees fit. So no matter how many times you read it, or listen to it, you can come out with your own opinion on it and breed to what you believe.

Wrong? Sure. But that's what happens with written standards.

The biggest problem I always see is in that last paragraph you posted...drive and will to work. Sadly, the conformation ring doesn't test for that. Although I do think the SV gives it a much better shot than the AKC.


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## Blitzkrieg1

There is no spectrum. Either your interested in a WORKING dog or you want a pet. When you actually seek a dog capable of work you will find there are the few that have the courage and drive to work in any capacity, PPD, LE, Sport whatever and then you have the 95% remainder.

Go 95%ers!


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## martemchik

Lol blitz...city just south of me has a SL police dog. It's better than the Mali they have!

Dogs are trained and worked by a pretty good IPO helper as well. So the guy knows what he's talking about.


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## carmspack

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOCicnxL4Jc

this *VA Waiko vom Schaumbergerland*
got VA from Canadian and American Sieger show ?? not from the big event in Germany . That is a detail that needs to be mentioned.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Told ya M.


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## counter

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Told ya M.


I'm still resisting!

Go 95%ers!!! Oh, I mean....go 80%ers!!!!

Re...sis...ting...!...!...!



(My children, not so much with the resisting [of the cuteness])



This was taken Saturday near Boise, ID. My oldest daughter was signed up for her first horse riding lessons. I was supposed to be home from Korea to attend and witness this, but nope, still stuck here. She is going every Saturday, so maybe I will be back for next weekend's class. I guess the farm has chickens and ducks and 2 shepherd dogs (one being an Australian). I want to go and play with the doggies and horsies and quackies and chickies!


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

martemchik said:


> Lol blitz...city just south of me has a SL police dog. It's better than the Mali they have!
> 
> Dogs are trained and worked by a pretty good IPO helper as well. So the guy knows what he's talking about.


Iv always believed in Unicorns Max . Faeries too! 

Cute kids counter..still dont buy a dobe unless as a pet for your daughter if she is not too strong a handler .


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## Debanneball

Nice kids Counter. Sorry you didn't get home, maybe this week. I also have to apologize to you, and everyone here... I am so sorry I asked the question about the show and working lines and the judging. I have been reading..rereading... It would be nice if there was only one 'line', but I see thats impossible. GSD's are so versitile, they are truly quite the dog!


----------



## Susan_GSD_mom

counter said:


> I'm still resisting!
> 
> Go 95%ers!!! Oh, I mean....go 80%ers!!!!
> 
> Re...sis...ting...!...!...!
> 
> 
> 
> (My children, not so much with the resisting [of the cuteness])
> 
> This was taken Saturday near Boise, ID. My oldest daughter was signed up for her first horse riding lessons. I was supposed to be home from Korea to attend and witness this, but nope, still stuck here. She is going every Saturday, so maybe I will be back for next weekend's class. I guess the farm has chickens and ducks and 2 shepherd dogs (one being an Australian). I want to go and play with the doggies and horsies and quackies and chickies!


Love the pictures! Ahhh, little girls and horses. I know it well. I never outgrew that stage.

Your daughter looks so happy! For a first lesson, her form is pretty good, too. Heels are down perfectly. Head and shoulders need to back a bit, so that if you dropped a vertical line from her ear down, it would hit her shoulder, hip and heel. (Sorry, that's absolutely not a criticism, it's just the old riding instructor coming back out, lol)

Susan


----------



## counter

Susan_GSD_mom said:


> Love the pictures! Ahhh, little girls and horses. I know it well. I never outgrew that stage.
> 
> Your daughter looks so happy! For a first lesson, her form is pretty good, too. Heels are down perfectly. Head and shoulders need to back a bit, so that if you dropped a vertical line from her ear down, it would hit her shoulder, hip and heel. (Sorry, that's absolutely not a criticism, it's just the old riding instructor coming back out, lol)
> 
> Susan


My wife used to ride horses and do all the jumps and stuff. I know nothing about it. But I know my wife collected hundreds of Breyer horses, and also had boxes and boxes of awards, trophies, and ribbons from her horse days. I believe she stopped around age 14. She is passing on her old skills and experiences to our children. I want them all to learn to ride. I also want to learn to ride, and then our plan is to get horses once we have our dream house on farmland, or acreage in Alaska or wherever we end up to retire. My wife posted all the pics on our family blog from our 9-year old's first riding lessons, and my wife also commented on her form noting her heels being down. I guess my wife taught her that. It will slowly come back for her, as it's been 21 years since my wife has done anything with horses.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Ha! I knew about Waiko. 

If the total eradication of WGSLs is the goal then it will require some action, not getting frustrated with people on the net.

I'm thinking the Force. That or the Vogon. 

Love the pics! Agree with Susan, your daughter is showing good form. 

(On a momentary serious note..I don't have any skin in this whole SL vs WL issue. I'm not that invested in it money wise or emotionally. The thing is this isn't about how much we know about SLs or WLs. It's about life, challenges are only met through actions. As my Dad taught me, "Do something about it". If you don't then it's nothing but sour grapes and being bitter. Sorry but that's just the way it is and boy oh boy am I having that reinforced in my life at the moment. I don't make the rules it works that way for me and everybody else with the challenges we face in life. If you believe in something fight for it.)

Back to the counter show now. 


(P.s. Hope you get to head home soon!!)





counter said:


> I'm still resisting!
> 
> Go 95%ers!!! Oh, I mean....go 80%ers!!!!
> 
> Re...sis...ting...!...!...!


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Don't feel bad about asking. It's happened before and it will happen again.

This is fairly common in the working dog group. Labs have show and field lines. They look very different, or at least they did at the last speciality show I was at. Same with Golden retrievers, show and field lines.

The field lines are the dogs that are used to actually hunt, work, retrieve and compete in what is called hunt trials.

I don't know if the divisions are quite as sharp and deep as with GSDs but hang around those who show or hunt theses dogs and eventually they'll bring it up and disagreements arise.





Debanneball said:


> Nice kids Counter. Sorry you didn't get home, maybe this week. I also have to apologize to you, and everyone here... I am so sorry I asked the question about the show and working lines and the judging. I have been reading..rereading... It would be nice if there was only one 'line', but I see thats impossible. GSD's are so versitile, they are truly quite the dog!


----------



## carmspack

"This is fairly common in the working dog group"

what ? the GSD IS a working dog breed -

a good working dog is getting harder to find 

I am glad there are those that try to keep it going 

I know several kennels which switched , not because it was right or better , but because it was easier, less expected, pups easy to sell , and greater financial rewards

see how many show line pups are going for premium -- almost double that of a working pup.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

carmspack said:


> "This is fairly common in the working dog group"
> 
> what ? the GSD IS a working dog breed -


Carmen,

Ahhhh... Yeah I know what you are getting at. 

I should have defined the separate groups more clearly.

Sporting and Working.

Ya got me. 

Btw do Terriers count too?


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Actually good gun/sport group dogs aren't that hard find?

My friend who competed her Golden in field trails (and used her dog at quail hunts) had plenty of company?

At least in this region.

Also you know what, there are plenty of WL GSDs around too.

Anyhow...back to Counter.


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## Gwenhwyfair

True about the pricing of show lines Carmen....I agree.


----------



## carmspack

yes it applies to terriers too.

I had the honor to be asked to judge the Jack Russell Nationals - 3 years in a row.

Same phenomenon - a paltry few in the obedience ring , not even interest as spectator -- meanwhile in the conformation ring - big classes , lots of interest from spectators.

when my events finished I went over to see some of the show - but my primary interest was the go-to-ground.

shock of shocks -- how many of these dogs had no interest in going to ground , were timid of the prey , yet had energy boiling over which I thought would have translated to work ability. Not.

The host and organizer of the event had amazing working jack Russell terriers -- one "Romney" had credit for almost every imaginable vermin --- and was used to evacuate nasty raccoon sows .


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## martemchik

It's almost impossible to find a good working GSD...unless you know one of our honorable forum breeders. Then they will surely provide you with one.

Oh please, I can find a good working GSD within an hour of me right now. Not hard. It just takes a bit of Google work and preferably some connections.


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## carmspack

"a" , singular " takes a bit of Google work and preferably some connections. " 

so you are not tripping over them?


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## Susan_GSD_mom

counter said:


> My wife used to ride horses and do all the jumps and stuff. I know nothing about it. But I know my wife collected hundreds of Breyer horses, and also had boxes and boxes of awards, trophies, and ribbons from her horse days. I believe she stopped around age 14. She is passing on her old skills and experiences to our children. I want them all to learn to ride. I also want to learn to ride, and then our plan is to get horses once we have our dream house on farmland, or acreage in Alaska or wherever we end up to retire. My wife posted all the pics on our family blog from our 9-year old's first riding lessons, and my wife also commented on her form noting her heels being down. I guess my wife taught her that. It will slowly come back for her, as it's been 21 years since my wife has done anything with horses.


The moment your wife is on a horse's back again, the feel, the instincts and the head knowledge will come back. It's the muscles that will have to learn again, lol. 

Horses in Alaska? Hmmm.... I know people do it, but let me tell you, the worst thing about having horses in the winter even here in Michigan was making sure they had water to drink all winter, UNFROZEN water, unless you could have a heated barn, heated water buckets in each stall, or a heated water tank if they share a shelter. It was having/caring for/training horses in the winter that made it my least favorite season in the first place, lol. I also can't imagine that feed would be cheap up there, unless you could bale your own hay (how long is the growing season--maybe get one cutting)...
If you opt for pelleted feed, I think it would be very expensive there. Not to discourage you, but the long winter, short summer adds all sorts of issues to caring for livestock, in my opinion. Maybe someone here can correct me.

Susan


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## lauren43

martemchik said:


> Counter, a lot comes down to simple economics. Time and money...
> 
> Those of us who train for performance venues, don't have the time or the money to be shoving our dogs into weekend shows where they won't win or get any necessary special recognition.
> 
> You also have to realize that the 80% you speak of is more than likely the "pet owner" group which really doesn't affect the breed as much. It's the other two groups that are doing the breeding and showing...so they have the control no matter what.


Doesn't it also have something to do with Sieger shows wanting to see the WGSL dogs [Period]. And that there is a lot of politics in showing, both AKC and Sieger...

And I'm sure there are some bias in the IPO trialing as well.

And in your last post you ask about living with WL. You are absolutely correct, I do not have the experience to back it up. In my attempt to get a WL puppy, my suspicions had only been confirmed, when the breeder informed me the girl I had a deposit on would most likely have a hard time settling in house, esp in the first two years. So that's how I ended up with a WGSL, many people suggested it (or a cross) as a first time GSD owner...Perhaps one day I will get the pleasure of experiencing a well bred WL (or DDR) that has a beautiful off switch...Until then I am here to learn.


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## björn

I guess a workingdog breeder don´t see much value in shows if it is the opposite of functional that pays of, I suppose many of them already think they breed a type that is closer to the standard in structure, I mean why would they care what the standard or judge says about structure if it´s not relevant for a workingdog. A dog like this, who was both a showchampion and workingchampion plus also policedog in his time is not the norm today, but what is wrong with his structure, I mean it´s not uncommon to find workinglines today that have more angulation and a more weird backs than this "showdog".
https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=128843-cleibers-cleei

One of my favourites today, a "wolflike" structure but is this ideal to the standard? I suppose as a showdog he has not much to gain


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## Gwenhwyfair

:thumbup::thumbup:

I think if you live in a very rural area you'd have to search further afield, but I know around here there are quite a few who breed for work and IPO.



martemchik said:


> It's almost impossible to find a good working GSD...unless you know one of our honorable forum breeders. Then they will surely provide you with one.
> 
> Oh please, I can find a good working GSD within an hour of me right now. Not hard. It just takes a bit of Google work and preferably some connections.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

carmspack said:


> "a" , singular " takes a bit of Google work and preferably some connections. "
> 
> so you are not tripping over them?


We have increasing numbers of WLs showing up in shelters...that's a sign.


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## lhczth

A sign of what? That you have breeders breeding for the wrong reasons selling to buyers buying for the wrong reasons? It doesn't change the fact that finding exceptional dogs for work/sport is difficult especially in North America. Finding them for breeding is like looking for a needle in a haystack.


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## lhczth

Nice masculine male, björn. Pedigree?


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## martemchik

The dog in the picture still has a back end that's just a bit too upright, even I can see how a little bit more angulation would make that dog a bit more efficient in movement.

I'm not sure where the idea that "wolflike" is the perfect conformation came from, but I don't believe it is. There are definitely certain changes needed to a wolf's angulation to make it more efficient.

You guys are probably just way too picky when it comes to the perfect pedigree, as you're breeding and are worried about continuing those traits. For those of us that just need a dog to compete in sport, maybe dabble in some SAR, it's not that impossible to find the dogs. Especially if you're alredy doing it, and have the connections necessary to get the information you need in order to pick out a dog.

And if anyone tries to tell me that 40 years ago you could take any GSD off the street from some random breeder and that dog would be able to be a K9 or a SAR dog or even easily get titled in IPO, I'd love to get some of the koolaid you've been sipping on.


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## lhczth

That dog actually has good angulation behind. He is a bit straight in front (though the slightly frontal shot of the photo doesn't help). 

Nature made a very efficient predator in the wolf. Nature does not care about human esthetics. Only what works and the wolf's structure works very well for a wolf. They do, though, tend to pace as their normal distance covering gait and not trot which is what a GSD is supposed to do. 

It was far easier to find suitable dogs even 30 years ago (40 is too far back for me) though, no, not every dog on the streets could work. The dogs have changed.

I breed what I like to work. I started breeding because it was too stinking hard to consistently find what I want to work. Some are just pickier than others.


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## martemchik

I understand what you're saying Lisa, but is that because of SL or is it just because there is now a GSD "breeder" on every street and people aren't smart enough to understand how it should be done when they're buying a puppy.

The market is just bigger today than it was back then. And any joe shmo can get into it and start breeding. So I can't really blame the show ring for that, if anything, the show ring is helping to quell that issue by at least doing something with their dogs.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Finding average dogs is easy its finding the exceptional one that is a challenge. Doesn't matter who the breeder is.


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## björn

Lisa, here is his pedigree, he apperas in this movie(works in security besides sports) at 2.20 and a bit forward and his structue is easier to see compared to a photo, seems to have enough angulation and doubt his back needs to be less straight to be an effective worker





https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2093678-aspirants-dekov

Speaking of structure, why does all other working/performancebreeds have the same more natural shape the wolf have , kelpies, huntingspitzes just like the GSD also had before people started to change it? I don´t know but it seems this idea the GSD should be a trotter is taken to extreme and not based in reality when the GSDs actually worked as herdingdogs. A wolf can cover up to 4 marathons a day so I suppose that is enough for most uses, it´s also fast and athletic and I suppose their bodies doesn´t give upp after a few years.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Exceptionalism is always rare. This isn't about every dog being of super quality.

Even the best breeder with the best litter has less then stellar dogs in it, so I don't think that's really a core potential here.

Just a couple of weeks ago I and a friend helped a couple who got a WL that had been passed through 3 homes previously. Fortunately some documentation on the dogs breeder managed to get passed along. The breeder was contacted and very upset and surprised at what had happened to this dog. She said she would take the dog back immediately. She also had it in her contract that the dog should go back to her if original owners could not keep it. We suspect original owners didn't want to give the dog back without $$$ so they sold it.

Then there are the people who don't want the top flight dog for working or sport but want to stay local, even though they are committed. 

There's so many layers of grey after you move past the exceptional breeders and dogs.

Anyhow, the point is be it good breeders, in between and crumby ones the WLs are becoming the "in" dog to have and invariably the increased number of dogs = increased WLs in shelters.

I don't think that's such an all or nothing sort of observation.

(And what Martemchik said  )




lhczth said:


> A sign of what? That you have breeders breeding for the wrong reasons selling to buyers buying for the wrong reasons? It doesn't change the fact that finding exceptional dogs for work/sport is difficult especially in North America. Finding them for breeding is like looking for a needle in a haystack.


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## Nigel

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Exceptionalism is always rare. This isn't about every dog being of super quality.
> 
> Even the best breeder with the best litter has less then stellar dogs in it, so I don't think that's really a core potential here.
> 
> Just a couple of weeks ago I and a friend helped a couple who got a WL that had been passed through 3 homes previously. Fortunately some documentation on the dogs breeder managed to get passed along. The breeder was contacted and very upset and surprised at what had happened to this dog. She said she would take the dog back immediately. She also had it in her contract that the dog should go back to her if original owners could not keep it*. We suspect original owners didn't want to give the dog back without $$$ so they sold it.*
> 
> Then there are the people who don't want the top flight dog for working or sport but want to stay local, even though they are committed.
> 
> There's so many layers of grey after you move past the exceptional breeders and dogs.
> 
> Anyhow, the point is be it good breeders, in between and crumby ones *the WLs are becoming the "in" dog* to have and invariably the increased number of dogs = increased WLs in shelters.
> 
> I don't think that's such an all or nothing sort of observation.
> 
> (And what Martemchik said  )


Red-Or they may have been too embarrassed of their failure after pitching themselves to the breeder as a good home.

Blue- I've seen this around here, most that I know of were imported, greener grass I'm guessing.


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## counter

I know I've posted pics of Kaze on here, most of them are in the "Help me contact the Kennel Club in England" thread (not exact title). When I get home I'd like to have my wife help me stack him and stack Nara and get pics. My wife is the photographer that has taken most of the pics I've posted of our family and dogs. You can tell the good quality pics she took, the not so good are mine. Anyways, I'd like to stack them and post the pics to have you guys compare conformation and potential working ability and everything else you've been discussing with the differences between WL and SL. Nara seems to be one of those cookie cutter dogs, but Kaze has different coloring and proportions. Not sure what his breeder was going for there. I also don't have his pedigree (yet) but am still working on that. I may never have it. But hopefully you guys can still tell me what you think. I'm especially intrigued to see how they (Nara and Kaze) stack up against each other. More to come once I arrive home...

KAZE


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## martemchik

Are your dogs SAR dogs?


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## counter

martemchik said:


> Are your dogs SAR dogs?


In training, yes. 

Nara is a little old now, so I'm going to dedicate my time to training Kaze for SAR. My job would not allow me enough time to keep Nara up on her training while I was an Air Force Recruiter, working 12-18 hour days, 6-7 days a week for 4 years. I started her when she was 2 after we moved from VA to Oregon, and we joined Search ONE K-9 Detection. You know you are in the right place when they have a GSD in their official logo! Ha!










Now we are in Idaho, and I am a certified member of Idaho Mountain Search & Rescue Unit (IMSARU), part of the Mountain Rescue Association. I just adopted Kaze at the end of March 2014 and started his training, but then had to deploy out of the country for 4 months. I will be home next week to pick up where we left off. He's almost too old to start, as he'll be 3 on Dec 5, 2014, but I'm still going to give it my best shot.

Thanks for asking!

Oh, and if Kaze doesn't work out, then I think with my next GSD, I'll look to buy or rescue a WL and see if they do better. Kaze was also somewhat neglected by his first owners, receiving little training (some tricks, but no obedience), no socialization, and no exercise. He was loved, but that was about it.


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## carmspack

trying to get you answers on Kaze -- did you buy her in Great Britain ? Dog looks to be show lines , with poor pigment .

"I'll look to buy or rescue a WL and see if they do better. "

that is not how it works . It is not the "line" but the aptitude of the dog for the purpose it will be employed in.


----------



## counter

carmspack said:


> trying to get you answers on Kaze -- did you buy her in Great Britain ? Dog looks to be show lines , with poor pigment .
> 
> "I'll look to buy or rescue a WL and see if they do better. "
> 
> that is not how it works . It is not the "line" but the aptitude of the dog for the purpose it will be employed in.


Kaze was bought as a puppy by an Air Force member stationed in England. He moved back to the US and lost the registration paperwork in the move. He doesn't remember the name of the breeder. I have the vet paperwork from England showing the birthdate to be 5 Dec 2011. I have had GSD Club people in England contact me saying they were able to pull up 1 litter born on 5 Dec, but they were long coats. I've been told that ALL dogs who leave England have to have a passport and get micro-chipped, as per the law, before they leave. However, being that we're military, I have seen where sometimes we can get around local laws. So when I get home from Korea I am taking him to be scanned for a chip. Yes, his color is very diluted. Not sure what he was being bred for? Maybe just to make money. But he was sold for 650 pounds, or a little over $1,000 (that's the currency conversion now, not sure what it would've been in Feb 2012 when he was probably purchased at 8 weeks old).

As for WL vs SL and aptitude. I know in my last SAR unit, a lot of the volunteers came with pet GSDs (like me and my Nara) who didn't have "the right stuff" and didn't certify. I remember them finding a WL breeder of sable GSDs, I believe in WA state, who produced quality SAR dogs. A bunch of the people in the group went to this breeder to get high drive dogs that seemed to have what it took. I left the unit before seeing if those newer dogs got certified. I will see if I can contact some of the old members and ask who the breeder was, and also find out how their dogs are doing. Thanks!!


----------



## carmspack

I might have an idea who that would be in Washington State.

I don't think I would waste time and energy in trying to get Kaze's paper work . 
You would need to convert it to AKC , and then the original buyer who brought the dog to USA doesn't have the documents proving arrival , and they would need to be registered to their name first and then transferred to you.


----------



## RocketDog

counter said:


> Kaze was bought as a puppy by an Air Force member stationed in England. He moved back to the US and lost the registration paperwork in the move. He doesn't remember the name of the breeder. I have the vet paperwork from England showing the birthdate to be 5 Dec 2011. I have had GSD Club people in England contact me saying they were able to pull up 1 litter born on 5 Dec, but they were long coats. I've been told that ALL dogs who leave England have to have a passport and get micro-chipped, as per the law, before they leave. However, being that we're military, I have seen where sometimes we can get around local laws. So when I get home from Korea I am taking him to be scanned for a chip. Yes, his color is very diluted. Not sure what he was being bred for? Maybe just to make money. But he was sold for 650 pounds, or a little over $1,000 (that's the currency conversion now, not sure what it would've been in Feb 2012 when he was probably purchased at 8 weeks old).
> 
> As for WL vs SL and aptitude. I know in my last SAR unit, a lot of the volunteers came with pet GSDs (like me and my Nara) who didn't have "the right stuff" and didn't certify. I remember them finding a WL breeder of sable GSDs, I believe in WA state, who produced quality SAR dogs. A bunch of the people in the group went to this breeder to get high drive dogs that seemed to have what it took. I left the unit before seeing if those newer dogs got certified. I will see if I can contact some of the old members and ask who the breeder was, and also find out how their dogs are doing. Thanks!!



Hi counter. I'm a member of the Spokane County Sheriff Dept's SAR/INSAR. I'm guessing you were on the west side? What team? Was it Schraderhaus that was the breeder?


----------



## counter

I just figured out how to do multi-quote for the first time in 5 years! Even though it did it all in reverse timeline. Whatever, it's a start!



RocketDog said:


> Hi counter. I'm a member of the Spokane County Sheriff Dept's SAR/INSAR. I'm guessing you were on the west side? What team? Was it Schraderhaus that was the breeder?


Search ONE is Marty Neiman's unit based out of Tualatin, OR, just south of Portland. Not sure of the breeder for their dogs. I already had my hands full with my own GSD, so I didn't really pay attention. I wish I had. I will try to find out for you (and me!). Thanks for asking.



carmspack said:


> that is not how it works . It is not the "line" but the aptitude of the dog for the purpose it will be employed in.


I just got back from a run, and as I was doing my cool down, I realized that I wanted to add this:

In Oregon, 95% of our dogs were GSDs. The entire SAR unit was strictly K9. We had some quality labs and bloodhounds, and some random breeds and mutts, but mostly GSDs.

In my new unit here in Idaho, most of the dogs are mutts from rescues, and they are all certified and seem to do better at SAR than the GSDs in Oregon. This unit is not exclusively K9. We have a technical team (rope stuff, going off the sides of cliffs and climbing up mountains), mantracking team, mountain bike team, and K9.

So yeah, these free dogs from shelters have the "aptitude" you were speaking of. A lot of it also goes into the training and experience of the handlers. The Oregon unit started in 1988. The Idaho unit was one of the 4 original founders of the Mountain Rescue Association (now international) way back in 1955, along with Portland Mountain Rescue, Seattle Mountain Rescue, and the original all-volunteer organized SAR team: The Crag Rats out of Hood River, Oregon. 



carmspack said:


> I might have an idea who that would be in Washington State.
> 
> I don't think I would waste time and energy in trying to get Kaze's paper work .
> 
> You would need to convert it to AKC , and then the original buyer who brought the dog to USA doesn't have the documents proving arrival , and they would need to be registered to their name first and then transferred to you.


This is good to know. Why would I need to convert it to AKC? Couldn't the KC in England print me the pedigree once he is registered? Thanks for the pointers though. Keep'em comin'!


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## cliffson1

We have more GS than ever before, we have good breeders all over the place that are easy to find, the breed is in great shape, the old timers just spout Kool-aid, blah, blah, blah, .....yet we seldom see guide dogs anymore from our breed, they have lost status as premier dog in LE and military, they are not even best sport dog in sport that was created for them,....there is more GS than ever before, there are good GS to be found very easily, lol, the health and training sections are overflowing with owners that have dogs with congenital and temperament issues. Folks, keep listening to the new experts in the breed as the breed keeps spiraling in a non performance, health plagued direction.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Re: health/temperament - There are problems for sure. Keep in in mind though that people tend to post more when they have problems and come here seeking help. I've learned to take the internet with a grain of salt when it comes to positive vs negative balance overall.

I don't post about how well Ilda is doing and that she isn't DA or HA. Knock on wood her health (other then mild HD which is managed easily now) is good and she's a bright eyed, clean eared, nice healthy coat, active happy dog who is very pleasant to live with.

Maybe we should start positive threads once and awhile..but those seem to get ignored.


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## martemchik

The best sport dog? We should be grading them on two different scales, the breeds you speak of bring different things to the table in the sport, it's almost not worth judging them on the same level. It gets talked about all the time here that people prefer certain traits in their GSDs that you can't find in a Mali. We actually constantly belittle the GSDs that are more like malinois...because they have too much prey and not enough nerve.

Guide dogs? You don't see many of them period. Of any breed. The idea that back in the day, every other guide dog was a GSD, I find hard to believe. And even if they were, they were still an extremely low nominal amount of dogs. It's also not a sign of our breed being bad when people just realize a different breed is better for a certain type of work. It doesn't say a negative about the GSD that a golden or a lab are better at service work because that breed is wired differently and people have accepted that it's preferred.

In my area, LE is still using the GSD and will continue to do so for the near future. The military...has other reasons they went with a malanois, my feeling is that a lot of it had to do with the size and relative health of a smaller dog rather than the temperament issues. If you gave a GSD breeder, the funds and resources the military has, I guarantee you they'd be producing just as good of dogs on a consistent basis that the military is currently producing mals. Mals have distinct advantages over the GSD in that line of work that have little to do with the temperament of the breed or the "easier to find a good one" reason.

We also ask 100 times more of our K9s and military dogs today than we did in the past. So it's not very fair to say that back then, there were more dogs that could do it. Of course there were more, they were asked to do less, the bar wasn't as high. Today, we have raised the bar on what we expect from a K9 and therefore a lot less dogs can achieve that.

I'm not here to argue with the older experts, but if you look at this objectively, without bias, the breed isn't in as dire of a condition as many like to make it out to be. The dogs you're talking about, are the top one percentile in the breed. And sure, you might have a hard time finding those dogs. But overall, the breed is good, and the dogs that the rest of us look for, the ones that don't have horrible fear issues or temperament problems that makes them a danger to society...are not hard to find. If your complaint is that "pet quality" dogs are gumming up the system and making it harder for you to find the excellent dogs, that's one thing. But overall...a decent GSD is out there, not everyone needs a military grade K9 sitting on their front porch...and back in the day, not everyone had that either.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

...great post.

I was pondering the guide dog aspect too.

For example-

My trainers Czech dog is a great dog. Safe, stable, doing IPO and doing well. I like him very much and enjoy it when I get to keep him. He loves back scritches and rubs against me like a cat. 

I do think he'd be too much dog for a disabled person though, to channel and manage his energy and drive. 

He's so fast, doesn't miss a thing, I honestly think he would be unhappy and bored being a guide dog.


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## carmspack

Type 5
http://www.unlimitedgsd.com/Portals/UnlimitedGSD/types.pdf


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## martemchik

Carmen...we all know the different types. And I have no idea where you find these sources but come on. "Unlimitedgsd.com" sounds legit.

Why would I go with that persons idea of the true GSD over yours, over cliffs, over anyone else's? I can find you a website like that which will tell you that the ASL is the true GSD. Or the "old fashioned big boned 140 lbs" GSD is the correct one. People have different opinions, which one is right, is up to the end user to decide. And unfortunately for you, there are plenty out there that believe the other types are more correct than what you believe.

To keep jamming it down people's throats that the 1899 idea of the GSD is the one that should be followed is pointless. First...you're also interpreting a book, and don't have actual knowledge of any of the dogs that were around back then or what their temperaments were like, and second, if we don't evolve the breed...then other breeds like the malanois and the lab do end up taking over the jobs you like to think the GSD should have.


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## carmspack

Cliff , I am as passionate about this as you are . 

Unbelievable ! . Or maybe not.
Martemchik has been trotting out the same singular working dog 60 miles away , who is by now long in the tooth and probably never has been available , since he joined.

no nerve , no dog , end of story .
Martemchik "We actually constantly belittle the GSDs that are more like malinois...because they have too much prey and not enough nerve."
A GSD is not a malinois nor should it be . It is wrong . Wrong in the aims and wrong in the balance of over all breed characteristics and conformation. 


You find a good one - you keep it .

to this "Guide dogs? You don't see many of them period. Of any breed"

Just so happened to see one yesterday . As a matter of fact I will be happy to take a fellow forum member and "neighbour" misslesleedavis to Whitby and we can sit and watch the guide dogs go by. We can go to the big mall in Oshawa and see dogs in training. 
There are GSD . Compact - fairly naturally conformed , not coming off the show stream -- specialty bred . 

this was the case "The idea that back in the day, every other guide dog was a GSD, I find hard to believe."
in New Jersey , in California . In fact the organization in California was lead by Erich Renner and the genetics were Bodo Lierberg.

I have been involved in guide dogs , contributing breeding females , providing dogs used in public relations , dogs that graduated and certified as guide dogs. I had access to CNIB , the applicants living quarters so I could better appreciate the situation and the needs, the extent and the limitations (social and work place) , the reasons why some canines passed and some failed. I was allowed to shadow training excursions. I took one dog , one of mine , that I prepared , then handed over to complete and certify training. 
One of my dogs semen was collected and saved . He was of interest because of his concentration of Arko/Bodo Grafental -- widely used genetics for guide dogs on the east coast, and his concentration of Bernd Lierberg and related repeats of that combination. Brother Bodo genetics being the choice for the west coast.
Those genetics are alive in "Gus" . I still have Sabrina the source of those genetics . 

"If you gave a GSD breeder, the funds and resources the military has, I guarantee you they'd be producing just as good of dogs on a consistent basis "

Money is not at the heart of it . Knowledge , experience, critical testing , no compromise . 

Working line is not working dog. 
Why , in Germany of all places do the users , law enforcement and military have such a difficult time. Nerve .
In the homeland they are not tripping over an abundance of work able GSD . 

The breed does need to evolve , but what dictates that evolution . Physical and constitutional needs OR artificial constructs for appearance that have no functional advantage .

The problem is that instead of breeders trying to measure up to a standard , the standard keeps changing so that (to use the words of a friend) the deformities are turned into virtues. I would have said this , just find their words succinct .


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## carmspack

cliffson1 said:


> We have more GS than ever before, we have good breeders all over the place that are easy to find, the breed is in great shape, the old timers just spout Kool-aid, blah, blah, blah, .....yet we seldom see guide dogs anymore from our breed, they have lost status as premier dog in LE and military, they are not even best sport dog in sport that was created for them,....there is more GS than ever before, there are good GS to be found very easily, lol, the health and training sections are overflowing with owners that have dogs with congenital and temperament issues. Folks, keep listening to the new experts in the breed as the breed keeps spiraling in a non performance, health plagued direction.


Totally worth repeating !

So are Lisa's on Page 18. All of them.

So are Bjorn's who also has an interesting perspective .

If there are so many "working" dogs why in my area where two PD k9 vacancies became available , one to bone cancer , the other to early death to a blood embolism , can no replacements be found ?
I supplied one of the depts. previously with two dogs. The last dog they got from elsewhere because I had nothing of age available. That dog has entered the working world.
I got a call from the supporting , funding local kennel club , got a enquiry from a former handler , and later a call from the trainer , who had been actively scouting for a dog.

I don't have anything of this time. Won't for another 18 months and those possible prospects if they pan out are already locked -- spoken for.

I did contact a working user who has 4 of my dogs whether I would be able to dislodge one of the dogs they had . No. No matter what the party was prepared to offer . Too hard to find . And they need more of the same , themselves. Their business depends on it .

Martemchik those are facts . Recent . Not 1899.
more like 09 09 2014 .


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## Jack's Dad

Carmen, you don't get it. You, Cliff and many others with years of actual experience don't count. You have those antiquated ideas and are living in a fantasy world. 

The young oracle spoke and you're not listening. 

Oh, what are we to do, what are we to do young oracle?


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## carmspack

and when it's over it is over.

I know experience does't count . I don't know how many times on the forum it has been pointed out that experience is something to be ashamed of . 
Reading widely is a bad thing.
Being invited into the inner circles is a bad thing .

bad bad -- I am having a blast --- 

Oracle is not the only word that begins with or ..

there is orange, ornery , original , or ----


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## Gwenhwyfair

No one is questioning Carmen's Cliff or Lisa's knowledge about WL dogs, pedigrees, breeding or training.

What is being disputed is what currently drives the breeding of modern dogs, whether those forces could be controlled or changed and this actually would include pretty much all breeds today. It's a macro discussion (free market).

Now Cliff and Carmen surely can express their displeasure with where these forces are taking the breed but it is NOT challenging them on their foundational knowledge. Those are two entirely different discussions.




Jack's Dad said:


> Carmen, you don't get it. You, Cliff and many others with years of actual experience don't count. You have those antiquated ideas and are living in a fantasy world.
> 
> The young oracle spoke and you're not listening.
> 
> Oh, what are we to do, what are we to do young oracle?


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## counter

carmspack said:


> One of my dogs semen was collected and saved . He was of interest because of his concentration of Arko/Bodo Grafental.


 
I noticed my Nara has Grafental in her pedigree, and then you mentioned Grafental too. I remember when I got Nara, the main names/lines mentioned were von Batu, Grafental and Mittelwest. I'm thinking there's something special in these names? Care to expound?


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## martemchik

I'd answer to what carmen wrote but a lot of it just doesn't make enough gramatical sense to me to be able to properly respond. I believe somewhere in there she took a shot at me and my dog, which as carmen she's allowed to do on this forum, but I'm not 100% sure of that so I won't comment.

Here's the point...Carmen, Cliff, blitz, Lisa, all look for the best of the best dogs. You guys want the top 1% of all GSD out there. Makes sense. But for the rest of us, including jacks dad, we don't need the 1%. We need a nice, solid, stable dog. Which there are tons of out there. And even if all the GSDs bred, ended up being as good as the 1% you guys talk about (which is literally impossible)...you would again be able to try and look for the top 1% in that group and find faults in the other dogs. It's a never ending cycle.

And if you want to discuss experience...sure, we all agree with carmen, Cliff, and Lisa because they breed the types of dogs WE also like. I'm not arguing that. But what if Robin chirped in with her decades in the WGSL, or the woman from mittelwest, or the owner of Alta-tollhaus. Does their experience and knowledge and belief in what they are doing not matter? Theres your point...depending on what you like, doesn't make your opinion any more right or wrong than someone else's. For every carmen, Cliff, and Lisa in WL, there's one just as knowledgable and passionate in the WGSL and ASL. But we just dismiss that experience because it doesn't line up with what we like? Or what we have been led to believe through our own experiences?

Remember, I have two working line dogs. I'm not arguing the merit of what a "true GSD" should be. I'm in 100% agreement with what carmen believes and what the others believe. But the information on this forum, is overall extremely skewed...and at the end of the day this isn't a popularity contest.


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## martemchik

And money/time is always at the heart of it. Of course experience matters, but what I was saying is that if we gave someone like you unlimited time, money, and resources...you'd be able to run a much larger program for GSDs and get plenty more into the military, into K-9 units, and into service work.

This is why the military's program for malanois works. It's huge. They have the money and the people to get the best out of the dogs. And they can keep going and going. You guys always say how 1 or 2 from every litter are the top notch dogs...well the more litters you have, the more of those you'll end up with (if you've got the experience). So of course the resources are a big part of it.

My breeder, there are two of them, one that works full time at a different career...they physically cannot produce that many dogs. They can't keep up and work that many dogs in order to do what they want to do...produce the dogs you talk about. I've sent Lisa the pedigree of my bitch, she'll back up that they know what they're doing. But they're limitted by the amount of hands they have. If they had a military sized operation...they could keep back way more dogs and successfully breed a lot more of these types of animals.


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## Nigel

I see guide dogs just about everyday, some days several of them, my shop is next door to the VA hospital here. Most are labs, but I still see a good number of gsds. Last I heard, when one is "assigned" to a vet here locally, the dog will come from a facility in Oregon, which uses labs. The gsds were coming from a facility in PA or NJ, the conversation was a while ago, not sure how much is changed.


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## misslesleedavis1

The mall Carmen is talking about is full of them. Just last week there was a very young choco lab in there, 10 weeks? attached to his trainer- Andrew was chatting her up- the lab comes from a long line off proven guide dogs-
Standard poodles are also popular in there-..and dont get me started on my standard poodle love lol.


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## carmspack

no , this is wrong , Martemchik is challenging the value of the knowledge .

And no one need to sit idly by letting things unfold as they have been and accept it.

don't be part of the problem

I have even exchanged communications with the person who handled Bodo Grafental.


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## carmspack

your dog has the name Grafental -- but it is not Grafental breeding

I contacted the German owner of the Name Grafental to ask about this use of some "American" bred dogs that have his kennel name in use .

He was totally perplexed. NOT .

In the USA any name can be used. I had to chase after and have changes made to someone using my kennel name --- successful.


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## martemchik

Now you're telling me what I'm doing? Wow. Alright.

Your second sentence is exactly what I said pages ago!!!

Stop sitting on a computer, complaining about where the breed is, and do something about it.

Do what you have done, do what Lisa is doing, do what Cliff is doing. But sitting here and bashing the SLs when none of their "powerhouses" are here do defend them is a joke.

I'm sure there are plenty of them that can talk down about WL just as well as you have done about the SL.


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## counter

martemchik said:


> And money/time is always at the heart of it. Of course experience matters, but what I was saying is that if we gave someone like you unlimited time, money, and resources...you'd be able to run a much larger program for GSDs and get plenty more into the military, into K-9 units, and into service work.
> 
> This is why the military's program for malanois works. It's huge. They have the money and the people to get the best out of the dogs. And they can keep going and going. You guys always say how 1 or 2 from every litter are the top notch dogs...well the more litters you have, the more of those you'll end up with (if you've got the experience). So of course the resources are a big part of it.
> 
> My breeder, there are two of them, one that works full time at a different career...they physically cannot produce that many dogs. They can't keep up and work that many dogs in order to do what they want to do...produce the dogs you talk about. I've sent Lisa the pedigree of my bitch, she'll back up that they know what they're doing. But they're limitted by the amount of hands they have. If they had a military sized operation...they could keep back way more dogs and successfully breed a lot more of these types of animals.


I remember when the switch was made from GSDs to Mals, one of the reasons given was that Mals cost less. There were other reasons too, but I remember that cost was one of the main reasons given. A few years after the Mals were in place, I remember talking with MWD and LE K9 handlers, and the general consensus was "I wish we never switched." Not sure what it was that they didn't like in the Mals, or missed in the GSDs, but there was certainly something there, enough to pass comment.



Nigel said:


> I see guide dogs just about everyday, some days several of them, my shop is next door to the VA hospital here. Most are labs, but I still see a good number of gsds. Last I heard, when one is "assigned" to a vet here locally, the dog will come from a facility in Oregon, which uses labs. The gsds were coming from a facility in PA or NJ, the conversation was a while ago, not sure how much is changed.


I used to do SAR in Oregon and one of the ladies on our team worked with the Guide Dogs for the Blind Program out there. Her SAR dog-in-training was a yellow lab. She said most, if not all, of her guide dogs-in-training were also labs. Funny that you mention labs and Oregon, since I knew one of the women who trained them for that line of service...very nice lady! Nice to make that connection.


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## Gwenhwyfair

No. He is not. Neither am I when I've pointed out that a lot of people can't handle chihuahuas let alone working lines, of any breed really.

You rightly brought it up earlier, breeders switch to show dogs because there is more money.

You have every right to dislike that choice and point out from your experience why it is wrong, but Carmen, ultimately it's an acknowledgement of the free market forces that drive this. It's happened with a lot sporting group dogs as you and I agreed.

That has nothing to do with your experience or knowledge of GSDs. 

I'm a bit of a layperson Econ geek and tend to zoom out, away from particular lines of dogs and ask what drives these changes to breeds? Market pressures, free market, demand, what people are willing to pay for and live with.

It's sort of like 'killing the messenger' you know when you respond that you are being challenged.

IMO the questions that should be asked is should these trends be changed and can they be changed?

My instinct tells me no because it's an evolution that happened in parallel with the industrial revolution.





carmspack said:


> no , this is wrong , Martemchik is challenging the value of the knowledge .
> 
> And no one need to sit idly by letting things unfold as they have been and accept it.
> 
> don't be part of the problem
> 
> I have even exchanged communications with the person who handled Bodo Grafental.


----------



## carmspack

Martemchik said "But what if Robin chirped in with her decades in the WGSL, or the woman from mittelwest, or the owner of Alta-tollhaus. Does their experience and knowledge and belief in what they are doing not matter? "

reply -- I am sure that they are in top form and ethical and conscientious for the endeavour that they have chosen.

We are talking about all those work able dogs that apparently are out there in such abundance that you can trip over them, and that is just not the case.

I believe Robin has started introducing some DDR dogs and loving the results . 

I have resources, I have time. I have a hard time finding dogs that I would use to advance a breeding program.

I don't know all the lines. As the GSD becomes more split from the old working genetics into focused sport dog breeding I am a little lost. I had to ask about a pedigree myself the other day .
I never comment about Czech dogs . I don't know them .

show some respect and capitalize my name.


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## martemchik

How ethical is something when they're changing that standard you so whole heartedly believe in and fight for? So as long as they do it in an ethical way, there's no issue with them breeding those sub-par GSDs you've just been bashing away at?!?! Hmmm...that makes sense.

Oh no, I get it. The moment I put a name or a person to the "evil WGSL breeder" who is changing the breed, the intensity with which you despise what they do changes. Those you know...well they can do it. But the group as a whole don't know what they're doing and are the cause of the issues. The group is made up of those breeders...and if you're not willing to say anything to them directly, you have no business judging the whole group as a whole.


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## carmspack

"acknowledgement of the free market forces that drive this."

many a time that free market that loved the "fancy" dog almost ruined the breed at its inception , von Stephanitz had to come in and get hold and bring things back from the brink. This happened more than once.


The GSD is not some generic dog at the core , with an external appearance resembling the breed.

Not everyone needs to nor should own one.


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## carmspack

"How ethical is something when they're changing that standard you so whole heartedly believe in and fight for?"

Because the divisions have basically created separate breeds , sub-groups.
You don't see WGSL incorporating American show lines . Nor do you see them incorporating working line dogs.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Stephanitz created the breed? 

But...Correct and it's a powerful force too.

So given that we all have to function within the free market system the question is how do we effect change. 

As per your last sentence which I agree with 100% perhaps letting people have their Goldens in GSD coats is the lessor of evils. Meanwhile people like you and Cliff and Lisa can keep alive the dogs for the people who really value them.

I really hate seeing WLs end up in 'fuzzy pink slipper homes' or becoming a pick up bed ornament because having a "black sable is cool".

That's not good either....





carmspack said:


> "acknowledgement of the free market forces that drive this."
> 
> many a time that free market that loved the "fancy" dog almost ruined the breed at its inception , von Stephanitz had to come in and get hold and bring things back from the brink. This happened more than once.
> 
> 
> The GSD is not some generic dog at the core , with an external appearance resembling the breed.
> 
> Not everyone needs to nor should own one.


----------



## martemchik

So then what's he problem!?!?! Who cares?!?! There are sub groups...and there will always be sub groups, because we will never agree on which sub group is better than the others and therefore eliminate the other sub groups!!!


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## Gwenhwyfair

Yup I don't think those sub groups are going away either.

No one is going to force showlines out of existence. If the following and money is there they are here to stay.


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## Gwenhwyfair

misslesleedavis1 said:


> The mall Carmen is talking about is full of them. Just last week there was a very young choco lab in there, 10 weeks? attached to his trainer- Andrew was chatting her up- the lab comes from a long line off proven guide dogs-
> Standard poodles are also popular in there-..and dont get me started on my standard poodle love lol.


You know poodles used to be a hunting dog, water retriever yes? .


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## carmspack

the vast majority is the sub-group.
The problem is the narrowing of genetic diversity.
That is clear in this thread (opinions on this pedigree) quote


carmspack said:


> Not to trivialize DM in any way , there are more pressing spinal problems in GSD .
> I was looking for a video which I have provided that raises the alarm about lumbar stenosis.
> 
> Inbreeding----" T he wolves on Isle Royale are suffering from genetically deformed bones. Scientists from Michigan Technological University blame the extreme inbreeding of the small, isolated wolf population at the island National Park in northern Lake Superior.
> 
> 
> Researchers have collected the first scientific evidence that inbreeding has caused genetic deterioration of the bones of the wolves of Isle Royale. Rolf Peterson and John Vucetich of Michigan Tech and their colleagues, Jannikke Raikkonen of the Swedish Museum of Natural History and Michael P. Nelson at Michigan State University, report on the congenital bone deformities in the latest issue of the journal _Biological Conservation_. The work is supported in part by the National Science Foundation.
> The scientists found that 58 percent of the wolves on Isle Royale exhibit a congenital malformation in the lumbosacral region or lower back, and 33 percent display a specific deformity—lumbosacral transitional vertebrae—which can cause full or partial paralysis of the rear legs and tail, as well as back pain. It is a condition also seen in domestic dogs. Other malformations were found in the wolves as well.
> For the last 12 years, every one of the dead wolves the researchers have found has displayed bone deformities. In contrast, these deformities occur in only 1 percent of studied wolf populations that are not inbred.
> "Until recently, we didn’t know if the inbreeding was causing problems for the wolves," says Vucetich."
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O39-KcW60fs
> 
> the discussion starts at point 9:26 - the vet joins in shortly . Unfortunately it is in German but there is enough visual material to allow some understanding .
> 
> This is serious stuff . Young dogs are affected .
> There is no "test" , no one asks about it .




yeah sure "people like you and Cliff and Lisa can keep alive the dogs for the people who really value them."
hey even Mrs. K said that !
For people that really value them?
ALL people should value those virtues -- the very essence of the breed. 

I don't think Cliff breeds anymore. Lisa breeds to replace dogs for herself.
I breed every 18 months to 2 years . I began for the same reasons that Lisa did .
Anne "Vandal" I don't think breeds any more . She is more than able to tell you how much the breed has changed , and how much training and decoys have changed . 

Old timers like Joe Kuhn , long gone. 

The old time herders , gone - 

Cliff said "Folks, keep listening to the new experts in the breed as the breed keeps spiraling in a non performance, health plagued direction"


----------



## Nigel

Gwenhwyfair said:


> You know poodles used to be a hunting dog, water retriever yes? .


What a pain taking care of that coat! My parents have had a few, kept them clipped short, but still it was like velcro for seeds and stickers.


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## misslesleedavis1

Gwenhwyfair said:


> You know poodles used to be a hunting dog, water retriever yes? .


Absolutely!!


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

But there are younger folks like Mary, Sue and Gabor, Wildhaus that are still around and the torch will be passed on.

Btw speaking of experience mine is dealing with people in commerce. I deal with on a daily basis the average Joe and Jane dog owner. So I have a lot of experience with what they think about and want in their dogs. I get so darn excited when I meet someone who actually hunts or works with their dogs.

But this is the perspective that shapes some of my reasoning and comments, this is something I know about.

People like you Carmen, tend to deal with the much more committed and passionate dog owners and breeders so your perspective is like that of a professor in GSDs. 

Most people, I hate to say, just don't care. As long as the dog doesn't pee on the carpet and bite the kids they are happy.

(P.s. And don't think some of those folks don't frustrate the heck out of me too sometimes)


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Nigel said:


> What a pain taking care of that coat! My parents have had a few, kept them clipped short, but still it was like velcro for seeds and stickers.


Nigel and Leslee there are some breeders breeding field poodles though, pretty cool to see pics and videos of them working.


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## cliffson1

Carmen, I have no time to argue with the experts. I get requests from as many SL owners and pet people to analyze pedigrees and dogs as WL. People know who knows what they are talking about, and who has to have an opinion on everything, much of which they have two minutes of experience or knowledge of. But that's the way of the world today. 80% of all the dogs I bred went into families and pet homes! which debunks the whole WL nonsense. I don't even believe in lines, I believe in well bred stable GS with good health. The reason I am so " lucky" in getting good dogs is because of my knowledge and experience. I have a puppy right now out of untitled parents, sire line hasn't had title in three generations, never saw either father or mother work, and if I had posted the pedigree on this forum the new experts would bring out all kinds of bogus red flags. Right bogus, because the pup is superior probably to anything the experts have in any category. Accident? Right! 
Judges should have vast knowledge and experience in what they judge....a lot of judges today on forums don't even know what they have and why it is. It's not about WL vs SL, it's about the breed, and there is much ignorance blowing out opinions at every turn. This post isn't directed at anyone specifically, it's my view on opinions on forums....if it doesn't fit, people will look at it objectively and judge what I say, if it hurts and you squeal.....well, ........


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Cliff, ya know Carmen and I had a good above board convo. without being snide or being disrespectful to each other.

I try to disagree in a respectful way, I don't challenge you guys on pedigrees and training and breeding specifics. This is about dog ownership in general.

Most people don't even own GSDs of any type and Carmen was right when SHE said earlier there are some who shouldn't own GSDs.


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## björn

This dog was the sieger in 1955, this is also what good conformation is for many workingbreeders, so obviously something have changed as far as conformation goes,
https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=841-alf-vom-nordfelsen

The other point is workingability, the dogs who could do good both in shows and working was more and more rare as time went, and the breeders who tried to systematically mix showdogs in to their workinglines lost workingability, the intensity and endurance for working when the circumstances are tougher due to heath for example. This is at least the experience from GSD people involved in the breed from the 70s and forward in my country. 

To just find a "workingline" dog is not hard, but if you have a specific goal and don´t now where to look it´s not that easy. The military here did breed GSDs before and started again in 2003, they have more money and resources than any private breeder, HD/ED was a problem first, nowadays that aspect is better but allergies and backproblem besides not good enough workingability is still a concern. So if someone is looking for a healthy dog that should for example be able to do policework or fullfill the breedstandard in general when it comes to workingability and character you need to know more than just getting a puppy after two parents from workinglines.

The fact less GSDs are produced today also may be a factor it´s harder to get what you want for people really needing a working GSD. Intressting about the guidedogs. I recently saw a charactertest where the judge who is a working GSD breeder for long but also breeds labs for guidedogs commented on how nice it was to see a GSD who acts so balanced/controlled in her behaviours, being able to go from activity to calmness very fast, not whining and prancing around as soon as nothing happens, good nerves in other words, I suppose a trait valued for a guidedog but not so cool looking like a dog who is almost boiling over with excitement and drive, so to be fair it´s not only how a GSD should look that people have different opinions about, the question is how many types we can have before a persons ideal GSD may not be so common anymore


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## Blitzkrieg1

cliffson1 said:


> Carmen, I have no time to argue with the experts. I get requests from as many SL owners and pet people to analyze pedigrees and dogs as WL. People know who knows what they are talking about, and who has to have an opinion on everything, much of which they have two minutes of experience or knowledge of. But that's the way of the world today. 80% of all the dogs I bred went into families and pet homes! which debunks the whole WL nonsense. I don't even believe in lines, I believe in well bred stable GS with good health. The reason I am so " lucky" in getting good dogs is because of my knowledge and experience. I have a puppy right now out of untitled parents, sire line hasn't had title in three generations, never saw either father or mother work, and if I had posted the pedigree on this forum the new experts would bring out all kinds of bogus red flags. Right bogus, because the pup is superior probably to anything the experts have in any category. Accident? Right!
> Judges should have vast knowledge and experience in what they judge....a lot of judges today on forums don't even know what they have and why it is. It's not about WL vs SL, it's about the breed, and there is much ignorance blowing out opinions at every turn. This post isn't directed at anyone specifically, it's my view on opinions on forums....if it doesn't fit, people will look at it objectively and judge what I say, if it hurts and you squeal.....well, ........


Your making a believer out of me...


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## carmspack

the torch that will be passed won't be unquenchable blazing fire -- it will be a torch with press the switch L E D lights


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## Gwenhwyfair

I'm not going to dispute something that could be true in the future. I hope it is not true.

Time will tell....




carmspack said:


> the torch that will be passed won't be unquenchable blazing fire -- it will be a torch with press the switch L E D lights


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## martemchik

carmspack said:


> the torch that will be passed won't be unquenchable blazing fire -- it will be a torch with press the switch L E D lights


So it will be brighter and more efficient?


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## lhczth

It has been 10 maybe 14 years ago that I had an interesting discussion with a man, Carmen you remember Larry Filo?, who bought and sold dogs for police work. He told me that 10-20 years before our conversation he used to be able to look at 400 dogs and find 100 suitable. By the time we had our discussion he had to look at 1000 dogs to find the same 100. Our breed as a working breed is dying. What made the GSD special is vanishing. Maybe it is something that will happen to all popular breeds that have been corrupted by money, but it sure the heck doesn't mean we have to be happy or accepting of this change. 

We looks for the top 1% because the median of the breed has been lowered. It used to be we could look at the top 25%. It also used to be that a good working GSD was also a great pet and companion. I have owned them and luckily still do, but we shouldn't be regulating people to certain bloodlines (which are not always all that stable, BTW). 

I am trying to find a stud dog prospect for Deja. I am not having much luck. Yes, there are popular dogs getting bred to death because they have the right owners who know how to promote them or we have big name winning dogs who really shouldn't be bred and dogs that are being bred just because they are of the new fad in bloodlines, but I am at a loss to find what is best for her let alone her 1/2 sister. It is a very depressing situation for a person that has been involved in the breed for as long as I have (and I am a newbie compared to Carmen, Anne (who is still breeding) and Cliff. 

Max, I loved the pedigree of your female's sire. Not so much his mother.  Don't put words in my mouth, please. 

Sorry, a bit of rambling.


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## onyx'girl

> Yes, there are popular dogs getting bred to death because they have the right owners who know how to promote them or we have big name winning dogs who really shouldn't be bred and dogs that are being bred just because they are of the new fad in bloodlines


This is the reason for some of the frustration? 


> Maybe it is something that will happen to all popular breeds that have been corrupted by money


I don't really see the need to use top names for marketing purposes.
Most breeders do need to market their pups with the breeding matches they choose, but the ones that have a good track record in what they've produced know what clicks pedigree-wise, and their judgement should be regarded as wise and trusted.
I'd much rather put my support on a breeder that *isn't* using the flavor of the month just to market a litter.


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## lhczth

You missed my point.


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## onyx'girl

Oh, no, I got it! You are a breeder that is not just thinking of the marketing, lol....your decisions are based on the total package, pedigree match compliments. You do it right, Lisa.


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## Moriah

Counter said:
I remember when the switch was made from GSDs to Mals, one of the reasons given was that Mals cost less. There were other reasons too, but I remember that cost was one of the main reasons given. A few years after the Mals were in place, I remember talking with MWD and LE K9 handlers, and the general consensus was "I wish we never switched." Not sure what it was that they didn't like in the Mals, or missed in the GSDs, but there was certainly something there, enough to pass comment.

I was at a horse feed store last week and had my shepherd. An elderly couple stopped to admire him and we talked. He had sheep and Mals did the herding. He knew a lot about Mals. I mentioned they were being used in LE. He said shepherds were still in use and Mals had a drawback doing LE in that they were "too emotional." He said shepherds were more stable. I didn't follow up on that. I wish I had more time with the gentleman--he seemed to have a wealth of knowledge about GSDs and Mals.

His wife mentioned that the mals did not like to be interrupted while working the sheep with praise and did not care about food. She said when the job was done, the dogs wanted verbal praise and that was enough.


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## carmspack

I DO remember Larry Filo !

He used a lot of dogs with Sid vom Gremm? and that is the dog I was asking about -- active aggression --

right man?


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## Debanneball

Ihczth, if you are a breeder, why not just find a dog you 'like' be it show, working.. and breed to your female. Cliff said he sold most of his dogs as 'pets' and aren't most owners 'pet' owners who would really appreciate getting a sound healthy dog. Thats what I went for, a sound healthy dog for a pet. I may be way off base here, so I apologize if I missed your point.


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## Gwenhwyfair

With respect to finding WLs of top quality for breeding.

That isn't tied to SLs or BYBs. The other side of the free market coin is there are no rules or regulations blocking WL breeders from producing the dogs they believe in. So a lack of great dogs is a problem within the WL community.

Since I had considered and may still consider having a WL myself I have a folder on my computer of WL breeders as recommended on this site. Some believe in the Czech type dog, some are going for more the DDR type, some are blending Czech and DDR bloodlines, another that was brought up recently flat out states they aren't breeding for top sport/working but an all around good dog.

My point being (and Martemchik touched on this earlier) there is a lack of continuity among WL breeders and that is problem within the community.

I also wonder if the diverse breeding goals in the WL community is what also allowed the SLs to become predominant in the SV?

While I am sure there are disagreements and arguments within the SL community they do tend to stick together in the big picture and generally get on the same band wagon. Love 'em or hate 'em, there isn't really a "split" among the WGSLs. 

Just food for thought.....


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## cliffson1

When you understand that 80% of all GS in Germany are WGSL, you begin to understand the direction and development of the SV in recent years. Has nothing to do with unity, everything to do with this type of GS is a MAJOR export commodity in Germany. Why? Number one is fact that markets like India, Japan, China, South Africa, Pakistan. Brazil, Argentina, Have emerged with boatloads of money, spend inflated prices for the commodity, have no clue about history or working uses, nor outlets to develop these working traits, and really want a pretty GS ornament that doesn't require much effort to own/handle. The Germans are happy to accommodate these folks. ( Sidenote:there was a time when I started in the breed and winning Seiger dogs also produced top working dogs routinely, YOU couldn't buy a VA dog from Germany! They were still importing plenty of dogs to US and Europe, but they kept their top stock home.) As they changed the purpose of the breed from German work ethic to commercial commodity then the abilities and integrity of character slipped for a uniform aesthetic marketable dog to emerging nations that weren't interested in working dogs. There are three types of dogs today, working, show and sport....the show and sport people are in general more concerned with developing the traits that are successful in their venue. It is very difficult for them to diversify their genetics because they are looking to create perfect uniform litters in their venue. GS breeding is compensation breeding because of the origin of the breed, yet specialization breeding based on criteria that is needed for sport or show success is what you see commonplace. But it comes with a price! Sooner or later whatever comes first you cannot improve your type within your small selection group, and your refusal to go outside your comfort zone( for reasons of not wanting to lose angle, head, drive, health, or just a bias against another segment that could help genetically) usually lead to a lost of workability. If you go out and look at hundreds/thousands of GS that really work for a living, you will see many different conformation types and temperament types, if you go to show and sport worlds, you see cookie cutter type dogs in either color, structure, and in sport world drives and type. So there is a difference in breeding for working dogs and breeding for show/pet and work/sport. The United States started this kind of breeding mentality in late sixties with the ASL and the flying gait, it is now 50 years later, they have infused no genetic diversity.....fine people, with good intentions, but that road of specialization breeding is paved to ............
My point is yes, there are some good dogs out there, but in today's world the breeding philosophies of specialization are incompatible with a breed built on moderation and versatility. Therein lies the problem to my simple way of looking at things.


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## cliffson1

One last thing, everyone is not doing specialization breeding, but unfortunately many of the leaders of sport and show world have an inordinate influence on what wins in those venues.....in today's shortcut society many see accomplishments in these venues as the standard bearer for acquisition. There are still some very good breeders out there both hobby and commercial, but the key is what is their breeding philosophy and are they breeding primarily for a special venue or clientele.


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## Gwenhwyfair

In Blue: Not disputing that and that's free market again, money talks, often with negative results (both with dogs and people). Interestingly the increasing wealth in countries you mention has influenced a lot of things, negatively and that's a really good point you make.

However, that doesn't change the fact that the WL breeding community is free to and can still breed for what they value in their GSDs. If they could agree and get away from the specialization*. Then there must be some demand for those dogs as well.

To change a system/organization you need to be organized and fight for what you believe in. 

I don't see any other way?

(*btw this trend to specialization seems to permeate many areas. The 'jack of all trades' isn't as valued these days. Sometimes perfect becomes the enemy of good, even really good).


(In edit as a side note - FWIW I cannot stand, I mean really cannot stand the current WGSL trend of the 'bear heads'. This is where the continuity really works against them with these structural fads and I will not have a GSD with a Mastiff head. bleeeccch)





cliffson1 said:


> When you understand that 80% of all GS in Germany are WGSL, you begin to understand the direction and development of the SV in recent years. Has nothing to do with unity, everything to do with this type of GS is a MAJOR export commodity in Germany. Why? Number one is fact that markets like India, Japan, China, South Africa, Pakistan. Brazil, Argentina, Have emerged with boatloads of money, spend inflated prices for the commodity, have no clue about history or working uses, nor outlets to develop these working traits, and really want a pretty GS ornament that doesn't require much effort to own/handle. The Germans are happy to accommodate these folks. ( Sidenote:there was a time when I started in the breed and winning Seiger dogs also produced top working dogs routinely, YOU couldn't buy a VA dog from Germany! They were still importing plenty of dogs to US and Europe, but they kept their top stock home.) As they changed the purpose of the breed from German work ethic to commercial commodity then the abilities and integrity of character slipped for a uniform aesthetic marketable dog to emerging nations that weren't interested in working dogs. There are three types of dogs today, working, show and sport....the show and sport people are in general more concerned with developing the traits that are successful in their venue. It is very difficult for them to diversify their genetics because they are looking to create perfect uniform litters in their venue. GS breeding is compensation breeding because of the origin of the breed, yet specialization breeding based on criteria that is needed for sport or show success is what you see commonplace. But it comes with a price! Sooner or later whatever comes first you cannot improve your type within your small selection group, and your refusal to go outside your comfort zone( for reasons of not wanting to lose angle, head, drive, health, or just a bias against another segment that could help genetically) usually lead to a lost of workability. If you go out and look at hundreds/thousands of GS that really work for a living, you will see many different conformation types and temperament types, if you go to show and sport worlds, you see cookie cutter type dogs in either color, structure, and in sport world drives and type. So there is a difference in breeding for working dogs and breeding for show/pet and work/sport. The United States started this kind of breeding mentality in late sixties with the ASL and the flying gait, it is now 50 years later, they have infused no genetic diversity.....fine people, with good intentions, but that road of specialization breeding is paved to ............
> My point is yes, there are some good dogs out there, but in today's world the breeding philosophies of specialization are incompatible with a breed built on moderation and versatility. Therein lies the problem to my simple way of looking at things.


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## carmspack

very smart questions gwenhwyfair 

"I also wonder if the diverse breeding goals in the WL community is what also allowed the SLs to become predominant in the SV?"

No . Thanks to Herman and Walter Martin the demand for the red and black GSD , asked for as "the traditional colour" , spun to some mega-promotion of the epitome, the ideal image . Huge commercial concerns. Domestic gross national product, tourism, export opportunities. Business.

They keep changing the standard to represent what is being produced . Not the other way around .

Sport keeps getting dummed down. 
This is the SV doing this.

Many times I have said the GSD will be kept in tact by non-SV countries. 

Things were made more than evident when the SV annual events split to showcase the Sieger show juggernaut , and to cast the BSP into the dark corners . Not an amicable divorce (if there is such a thing).

The working lines are an inconvenient annoyance which won't go away. 

Cliff covered many points I was going to make , very very well said. 
There are three splits . Show, working , and sport .
A "working line" does not a working dog make -- but the working lines ARE still the source from which to select genetics . Great care needed , not easy .


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## martemchik

The only thing I question is the "working line" for true working dogs. That one is probably more in the eye of the beholder than either of the other two. People can make a working dog out of anything, and it's up to them to set the standard on which they judge a dog and approve of its ability. In sport and in show, we have a standard to achieve, in real work, it's kind of fuzzy.

We love to talk about the epitome of the working dog. That all the K9s out there are unflappable, biting, hard gripping, sniff out all drugs within a 5 mile radius machines, but they aren't. And there isn't a standard set for those dogs. We have a few of those trainers on this forum, and although they've set the standard high for themselves, it doesn't mean the rest of their community has as high of standards.

I also have proof of this because there are plenty of kennels that are producing working dogs and also sport and even show dogs. I'm fairly certain sportwaffen is quite successful at both right now and I know that Huerta hof has produced a few K9s in recent years (out of show dog stock).

So I have to question the theory that there are 3 separate lines as you have pointed out.

Good information though, very thought provoking. I'm not sure if my first two paragraphs made a lot of sense. And I don't mean any disrespect to any real working dogs. But the idea that they are completely separate and something special from the other two lines doesn't equate when you look at the fact that there are sport/show kennels producing them.


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## carmspack

in real work, it's kind of fuzzy

not fuzzy . 

not fuzzy for bomb detection , not fuzzy for guide work , there are tests before being accepted , tests for certification, and tests for re-certification. At any point the dog can be washed out from the program.


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## martemchik

carmspack said:


> in real work, it's kind of fuzzy
> 
> not fuzzy .
> 
> not fuzzy for bomb detection , not fuzzy for guide work , there are tests before being accepted , tests for certification, and tests for re-certification. At any point the dog can be washed out from the program.


Answer the actual question I posed. How is it that sport and show kennels are also producing this mythical working dog if it is truly a separate line.


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## martemchik

of course with something like explosive detection the dogs need to be very accurate and so the trainer, who understands that lives are on the line will expect the highest from the dog. With guide dogs...there are plenty that are trained by their owners who would not pass a standard that is set by a program. The training facility sets its own standard because they are probably in some way liable if anything happens to the person, so the dog needs to be good.

But there are plenty of real working applications where 99% accuracy isn't necessary and where I've heard plenty of knowledgeable/respected trainers criticize a demonstration they see put on by the working dog to know that many of them have a different standard for what they would allow out of their program and into real work. And it's clear that the police departments don't have enough knowledge to make that call themselves. And let's be perfectly honest, the biggest percentage of working GSD are K9. I can't say for certain what it is, but I'm willing to bet it's a large majority.


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## lhczth

Max, I believe the working dogs are coming out of those that don't breed for one extreme or another though may use an extreme dog here or there because the dog is the right cross for their current female. I have a friend that is working very hard to produce WGSL that can work. She almost sold the best female she has had because she was too aloof as a pup. She was used to either spooks or social butterflies. She is learning and now is very glad she kept this girl. I wish her luck. She is even open to crossing into strong working lines. 

More to say, but I have an appointment to get to.


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## cliffson1

Because nothing is absolute and exceptions don't make the case, you can get anything from anywhere. You can't quantify and standardize real working. Some of you, especially those talking from read and statistics, don't understand that a good seeing eye dog, or good military dog, or good LE dog or good herding dog is one that the end results in terms of " mission" justifies the value. Not the quantitative numbers or standards that people who have no actual experience must rely on to wrap their mind around the quality. All LE dogs don't have to bite super hard, or have schutzhund obedience, or track with footprint precision to be valuable and effective. But if that is your point of reference for judgement, it is easy to use that as artificial standard. 
Carmen, is right in that many working dogs do come from WL genetics, but the adjustments and compensations needed to keep the balance of versatility must be open minded, and artificial standards while good to test some aspects, cannot become the goal of breeders....and while some may deny this, the actions of many breeders speak otherwise.


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## martemchik

Lisa, or cliff, are you saying that the extreme dog is the SL or the sport dog? Just to clarify so I understand where the discussion is headed.

I'm not looking for a strict written standard, my point is, when that mission is what justifies the value...there can be a lot that achieve that mission. Like cliff, I get what you're saying about the biting/precision/obedience that a K9 doesn't need but an IPO dog does need. But wouldn't that mean that in the case of many IPO dogs, that if instead of the focus being on those things that score more points, more focus was put on training for a working venue, the dog would do it just as well? It seems like that argument/reason just says that an IPO dog needs more than a working LE dog. Which just comes back to, the handler/trainer deciding that the dog is "good enough" to do what is asked and not have to be extreme like they would in IPO.

I know, there are certain things that a LE dog could run into in the real world that don't get tested in IPO...many of them environmental. And I forget the term you used cliff, but you had mentioned something before about a dog being unflappable in any environment. So I see how that is an important part of real work, and I also see plenty of dogs out on an IPO field that are unflappable in various environments. So wouldn't they make decent working dogs? The biggest difference seems to me that instead of their trainer testing them in thousands of different environments as pups, the dogs have a training program focused on IPO. Seems like most of this boils down to the trainer/handlers goals.

Just like you stated, an exception doesn't make the rule. I have yet to see a crazy, no off switch, just want to bite bite bite, top placing competition dog. There aren't as many of those as you're making out to be. Just because some IPO competitors/trainers prefer that kind of dog, doesn't mean the majority of "sport" breeders and handlers don't prefer a more moderate dog...


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## björn

Not all sportdogs are the same of course, just look at all titled dogs, they are not the same just because they are titled under the same standard/rules. So a good sportdog isn´t necessarily a good workingdog for policework, and I don´t think this is a priority for many either, or where are all breeders of showlines and even "working" lines who consistently produce good policedogs in each litter, and not a few in many litters? I mean this seems not so easy for those who have that as their main goal and have done it for years.


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## Vandal

I think the issue here is more about the types of GSDs out there now. Maybe they themselves are OK dogs but the problem comes when you are trying to find a mate for that dog. So many dogs now are very similar. I'd say the majority of dogs I see competing in IPO nowadays are of the more excitable type. Very ball and food driven with nerves that are easier to reach. People use that nerve to get behaviors they want to see in the training, meaning dogs who are quick to respond and perform the exercises that way. 
That kind of dog in itself may not be the problem but if you breed that same kind of sharp, excitable dog to another one just like it....then you start to see some fairly frightening results. Again, it is finding a dog to breed to that dog that is difficult to find. Something more solid and not so easy to stimulate. Nerves, higher threshold etc.

Many now simply do not know how to train the dogs that are a bit harder to reach...for a number of reasons but mostly, I think the points matter now more than using IPO to see who the dog is. The way the training and the trials are conducted now makes that not as possible as it used to and I can explain that in another post if anyone is interested.

I think that is what Lisa and Carmen are saying and I have the same difficultly now.... trying to find that kind of dog for breeding. The way IPO is conducted and trained for now is many times, either hiding the real heart of the dogs, or the lack of it.... Making it only slightly more effective as those fake Breed survey reports I talked about pages ago.


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## carmspack

martemchik -- "How is it that sport and show kennels are also producing this mythical working dog if it is truly a separate line." Of course the occasional dog can be found in any endeavour , even a talented dog with totally unknown origins found in the pound . BUT in order for it to have value to a breeding program and of interest to a customer , that dog , that line, has to demonstrate reproducibility .


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## martemchik

I personally just believe many departments or trainers will take what is available and use it if they can. I think that breeders that have produced working dogs in the past just don't want to accept that a lesser dog can do that same job. And like Anne said, trainers have learned to work with a different dog, and might even prefer that type of dog, but since we really only have one or two voices on this forum that a currently training those working dogs, it's hard to get a true idea of what the others might prefer.

Anne, thank you for the explanation. It really makes a lot more sense and I get the type of dog you're talking about and why it's harder to find that type of dog. It still sounds a like a lot of preference...you, cliff, Lisa, carmen, have been used to working that type of dog and prefer it to what's currently out there. But I'd like to know how the thousands of police departments around this country are getting by, probably with the type of dog that you would consider "sporty" and are still doing alright.

I can also definitely see the upside of having a more stable, tougher to work dog in that line of work. So I'm not arguing that it is probably better overall at the job, I just wonder how you would judge that if the more excitable dog is just as effective. This also makes me question why malanois are used instead of GSD. Mals are known for being excited all the time, and if what cliff says is true about police departments and the military, then it's clear they prefer a more excitable dog rather than the type of dog that you are describing. So then maybe that type of dog, the "true GSD" isn't the best working dog out there...and the changes occuring are for the better? Doesn't the market kind of dictate that?

And carmen, I'm talking about kennels that do consistently produce working k9s. I'm like 95% certain sportwaffen places most of their dogs into working homes and the few left over go to a select few sport homes. Maybe hunter or blitz will chime in on that and tell us how it really is.


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## Vandal

> So then maybe that type of dog, the "true GSD" isn't the best working dog out there


 They were never intended to be "the best" just capable of doing it all. I'll get to the rest in a bit.


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## Vandal

> And like Anne said, trainers have learned to work with a different dog, and might even prefer that type of dog, but since we really only have one or two voices on this forum that a currently training those working dogs, it's hard to get a true idea of what the others might prefer.


 Only two people are training dogs?


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## martemchik

No offense, but if the bar is just capable, then it's no surprise why the other more "specialized" breeds are getting chosen for the working venues, and there is no reason to complain that the GSD is no longer the chosen dog for those venues.

If a different breed is best, and the GSD is just capable, then of course the other breed should be chosen. The only reason you'd then go with a GSD is due to bias or the look of the dog. So then logically, the change from GSD to other breeds isn't because of the decrease in the GSD's ability, it's due to the more logical and efficient choices made by the people that need those dogs.


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## martemchik

Vandal said:


> Only two people are training dogs?


Please use context, I'm trying to have a normal discussion.

Of course more are training, but actual working dogs...what? Maybe a dozen or so, and I was talking about actual K9s.


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## Vandal

The GSD has always been known for their versatility. It wasn't about what people who don't know much about the breed think is "the best". It wasn't a competition but it sure is now...much to their detriment.


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## Vandal

Or are you simply arguing? Who are the two people and what dogs are you referring to? How's that? Easier for you?


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## martemchik

Im not saying it's a competiton. But if certain traits that other breeds possess not only make the dog easier to train for that job, and also more successful at achieving that job, it's only logical that breed is chosen for that job...

Competition has nothing to do with it, ease of training and success is what its all about. Like cliff said, it's not about how it's done, but that it gets done. So if the other breeds do it better, especially when life is on the line, why use a GSD?

If a mal can find an explosive in 5 seconds, and it takes a GSD 10. The mal can find twice as many explosives in the same amount of time. No one is competing, I'm just pointing out the obvious, versatility won't get you jobs.

In highly competitive working venues...specialization is key. It's the same for animals as it is for people...a person can be highly versatile and know 10 different subjects at a high school level, it doesn't mean they get the engineering job over the guy that has a college degree in engineering but doesn't know as much about business as the other guy.


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## Vandal

I don't work a K9, I have placed dogs on Depts in the past, I don't want to now.

I used to train with a very large police K9 school. My friend owned it. He supplied dogs to some of the biggest Depts in the world and departments who deploy dogs in some pretty tough areas.

So, I have an idea what kind of dog works. I also board dogs from very large depts. here and talk to the handlers. Interesting how the old time handlers with mals miss their GSDs. Are the Mals as effective? Some are, some are a PITA and try to bite their handlers. I'm not an expert on Mals, I have worked them as the helper and the better Mals, who compete at high levels that I have worked, were a bit more like a GSD in nerve etc. The more busy ones always seemed to break down in the bigger trials.

It has always been about economics with PDs. GSD breeders didn't want to place their GSDs on depts. at the price City Hall was willing to pay. Mals were cheaper with better overall health.
Used to see GSds doing patrol and detection. yep same dog. Now they have a Mal for patrol and a different dog for drugs. Mals not as versatile? Could be.


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## Jack's Dad

martemchik said:


> Im not saying it's a competiton. But if certain traits that other breeds possess not only make the dog easier to train for that job, and also more successful at achieving that job, it's only logical that breed is chosen for that job...
> 
> Competition has nothing to do with it, ease of training and success is what its all about. Like cliff said, it's not about how it's done, but that it gets done. So if the other breeds do it better, especially when life is on the line, why use a GSD?
> 
> *If a mal can find an explosive in 5 seconds, and it takes a GSD 10. The mal can find twice as many explosives in the same amount of time. No one is competing, I'm just pointing out the obvious, versatility won't get you jobs.*
> 
> In highly competitive working venues...specialization is key. It's the same for animals as it is for people...a person can be highly versatile and know 10 different subjects at a high school level, it doesn't mean they get the engineering job over the guy that has a college degree in engineering but doesn't know as much about business as the other guy.


If every Mal could duplicate that and every Gsd duplicated the situation you propose, you might have a point but they are animals and there is great variation within breeds as has been discussed.

Why in the U.S.A. do we always have to be best, fastest, smartest etc..

I can remember when a bronze medal at the olympics was an honor, now they are just also ran and quickly forgotten.

Who is the best quarterback in the NFL? Who cares, they can't all be the best.

Personally I like a utility dog.


----------



## martemchik

Anne...awesome info! It's really interesting. But again, to me doesn't point to the "demise" or decrease of GSD working ability, just that other breeds are being chosen for reasons that don't have anything to do with the GSD not being a good dog. You stated, it had to do with money, and I believe you've said before that you just didn't like the way the K9s were treated and didn't really want that life for your pups? So it's a completely respectable reason...but the PD/city hall isn't choosing the Mal because the GSD working ability isn't up to par, it's choosing it because of other things surrounding the market. I'll never deny that nerve isn't important, and I'll always believe a GSD is a better dog for K9 or military work due to some of the things that have been discussed here. Do you think this is just a "phase" that the departments are going to mals? and will figure it out and go back to a GSD? Or is it here to stay? I think this kind of stuff happens all the time, people believe they've found something better, they realize they don't, and they go back to the old...it just takes time to happen. Like you said...many times, its not the dog people and the ones actually on the front lines that are working with the dogs that make these decisions.

Jacks dad...you have to be kidding me. When lives are on the line you're alright with the third place dog trying to figure things out? And not the best of the best? That's just illogical. Sorry, but no matter how you spin it...utility isn't going to do when you need something done fast and done right.

Many departments have gone to hounds for searching and then mals/gsds for the actual apprehension. It just makes sense. The hound can find the person faster and with more accuracy. Then you follow the dog with a car and a dog capable of apprehension in there. Not only is the tracking faster, the apprehension dog isn't tired from the search and can be even more effective at that portion of it.

This is basically the reason we have different breeds of dogs. Each one is specialized in something that people need from it. There's no reason why you can't use different dogs/breeds in order to more quickly and accurately accomplish what needs to be done.

Today, you still have small departments that just have one dog for all things, and it's usually a GSD. But a larger department, that can have dozens of K9s. Why wouldn't they specialize the breed to what they need from the dogs. Wouldn't you rather have 5 10s in aprehension, 5 10s in tracking, and 5 10s in detection than 15 5s at all three?


----------



## Vandal

Um, you seem to agree it's about money and then revert right back to the "best" comment. The dogs I saw that were the "best" Police dogs, were always the GSDs. 

The GSD is certainly capable of tracking a suspect and I personally do not know of a Dept using hounds to track criminals. I know LAPD has evidence dogs, dogs who track but not for bad guys, patrol dogs and bomb dogs. The bomb dogs are mostly deployed at LAX. 
Like I said, since there are less GSDs now, we see a number of dogs doing what one GSD used to be able to do. That's Govt for you, penny wise and pound foolish.


----------



## Jack's Dad

martemchik said:


> Anne...awesome info! It's really interesting. But again, to me doesn't point to the "demise" or decrease of GSD working ability, just that other breeds are being chosen for reasons that don't have anything to do with the GSD not being a good dog. You stated, it had to do with money, and I believe you've said before that you just didn't like the way the K9s were treated and didn't really want that life for your pups? So it's a completely respectable reason...but the PD/city hall isn't choosing the Mal because the GSD working ability isn't up to par, it's choosing it because of other things surrounding the market. I'll never deny that nerve isn't important, and I'll always believe a GSD is a better dog for K9 or military work due to some of the things that have been discussed here. Do you think this is just a "phase" that the departments are going to mals? and will figure it out and go back to a GSD? Or is it here to stay? I think this kind of stuff happens all the time, people believe they've found something better, they realize they don't, and they go back to the old...it just takes time to happen. Like you said...many times, its not the dog people and the ones actually on the front lines that are working with the dogs that make these decisions.
> 
> *Jacks dad...you have to be kidding me. When lives are on the line you're alright with the third place dog trying to figure things out? And not the best of the best? That's just illogical. Sorry, but no matter how you spin it...utility isn't going to do when you need something done fast and done right.
> *
> Many departments have gone to hounds for searching and then mals/gsds for the actual apprehension. It just makes sense. The hound can find the person faster and with more accuracy. Then you follow the dog with a car and a dog capable of apprehension in there. Not only is the tracking faster, the apprehension dog isn't tired from the search and can be even more effective at that portion of it.
> 
> This is basically the reason we have different breeds of dogs. Each one is specialized in something that people need from it. There's no reason why you can't use different dogs/breeds in order to more quickly and accurately accomplish what needs to be done.
> 
> Today, you still have small departments that just have one dog for all things, and it's usually a GSD. But a larger department, that can have dozens of K9s. Why wouldn't they specialize the breed to what they need from the dogs. Wouldn't you rather have 5 10s in aprehension, 5 10s in tracking, and 5 10s in detection than 15 5s at all three?


What is illogical is to consider all this in absolutes.

To believe that you will always get the best K9, surgeon, paramedic, teacher etc... is ridiculous.

Thee is nothing black and white about dogs or people.


----------



## Jack's Dad

martemchik said:


> GSD?
> 
> Many departments have gone to hounds for searching and then mals/gsds for the actual apprehension. It just makes sense. The hound can find the person faster and with more accuracy. Then you follow the dog with a car and a dog capable of apprehension in there. Not only is the tracking faster, the apprehension dog isn't tired from the search and can be even more effective at that portion of it./QUOTE]
> 
> Honestly, where do you come up with this stuff? Can you cite where you got this info.
> 
> How about the other thread where you talked about the other 90% of Mals who tucked tail and ran when a stick came out.
> 
> It's past time you started proving some of this stuff.
> Citations please.


----------



## Vandal

I don't have stats on any of this, (I'm sure there are very good Mals working on PDs)..... this is just what I recall about some of the Police Dogs.

I saw some horrific injuries to handlers from Mals who just were not right in their head. Again, they saved money on the purchase but the officer who left training via a medivac helicopter because a Mal took her knee out must have cost them a bundle. I heard a lot about nutty, HA Mals on PDs that had to be replaced.

edited to add: Many of us always felt the GSDs who didn't cut it in SchH could do police work. Of course, SchH was different then. That being said, even the lesser GSDs were not causing those types of problems. Yes, this was some years ago but I still hear about the returned Mals who are trying to eat their handlers. We hear more about this in GSDs now. The HA, like it is a good thing. Nothing useful there...sorry to the big egos.


----------



## martemchik

Yeah...I go back to using that because it's fairly clear that even though the GSD is "best" the departments are picking other dogs due to other reasons that don't have to do with the ability of the dog/breed. The reason to go away from the GSD is due to the things you listed, not what has been discussed over the prior few pages as the demise of the GSD.

I'm in agreement with you. I actually probably have a more biased opinion of GSD than you do. I think they should be the dogs of choice. I also don't believe that we've lost that working type of GSD. I don't know if working breeders, or GSD breeders, had that much say in what has happened with those jobs.


----------



## martemchik

There was a special on History channel that I saw...it showed how that "partnership" works.

I know, not as credible as random people on a forum that you've never met and have no actual proof that they are who they say they are, but still something.

PS...just because Anne is on here, doesn't mean you have to be here to protect her. We were actually having a pretty decent discussion when you decided to chime in with your useless challenges.


----------



## Vandal

You seemed to have missed a few of my points but whatever. Many times, you seem to contradict yourself. 
You are difficult to understand but I will say, there is a difference in the dogs that only people who worked or saw the dogs from some time ago can really understand. That may be how you 'feel" but it isn't based on anything more than that.

I've seen some dogs that were close to it and I know there are still dogs like that but much harder to find now. The concern is, they will be gone and it is a valid concern.


----------



## RocketDog

Vandal said:


> You seemed to have missed a few of my points but whatever. Many times, you seem to contradict yourself.
> You are difficult to understand but I will say, *there is a difference in the dogs that only people who worked or saw the dogs from some time ago can really understand.* That may be how you 'feel" but it isn't based on anything more than that.
> 
> I've seen some dogs that were close to it and I know there are still dogs like that but much harder to find now. The concern is, they will be gone and it is a valid concern.


+1 It's called experience.


----------



## björn

Vandal said:


> Many now simply do not know how to train the dogs that are a bit harder to reach...for a number of reasons but mostly, I think the points matter now more than using IPO to see who the dog is. The way the training and the trials are conducted now makes that not as possible as it used to and I can explain that in another post if anyone is interested.


Yes, explain that, I´m intressted I think you are correct that it´s more GSD today that is of a differtent type, softer but more flashy and more reactive. Also agree that there isn´t much difference in a good malinois or a good GSD for policework, so it´s not about the police have malinois because they are better dog for policework, they wouild be stupid if not using also malinois when there are too many GSDs that isn´t suited. This is simple logic really, less GSD being breed today, of those it isn´the majority who strive for producing good workingdogs for real work.


----------



## Jack's Dad

martemchik said:


> There was a special on History channel that I saw...it showed how that "partnership" works.
> 
> I know, not as credible as random people on a forum that you've never met and have no actual proof that they are who they say they are, but still something.
> 
> *PS...just because Anne is on here, doesn't mean you have to be here to protect her. We were actually having a pretty decent discussion when you decided to chime in with your useless challenges*.


Ok. Now that's just plain weird. The last person on here who needs protection would be Anne in my opinion. 

History channel, well ok then. How about those Mals running away from the stick. 90% right?


----------



## martemchik

What I'm trying to get to is what exactly those dogs had that today's don't. And if they were truly capable of doing more than today's dogs. I guess I'd like it to be more than just "when I see it, I know" because that's not a knowledge you can pass on and therefore impart on someone that might agree and try to find that again in GSDs.

I'm not sure where I contradict myself, I play a lot of Devils advocate to get deeper into the things you and and the rest of the experts talk about. I like to get more information than just a simple sentence and just agree with it blindly. There were a few of your posts that definitely expanded a lot on some of the original ideas that you stated and I questioned, and i really appreciated them.


----------



## martemchik

Jacks dad, you know, that thing I do, train my dogs with other people. Not just sit on a computer and read things and blindly believe that's the way things are. I'm sure the idea of first hand experience if foreign to you, but people still do it in this age of Google and Wikipedia.

Anne just told you how many issues she's hearing about mals in working venues, do you really think those that are in pet/sport homes are better? There are a few select breeders doing some exceptional work with mals, and then there are a ton out there that are breeding the flavor breed of the month and selling them to anyone. Well yeah...a dog that is quick to bark and bite people that are clearly scared of it is a great protection dog, unfortunately many times that nerve Anne was talking about is missing and the moment that dog is asked to get defensive, it runs.

It takes a lot of skill from a helper to build up a sub par mal to a level where it can handle some of the pressure that is presented to it in IPO. I'd put my money on a GSD being able to handle that way before a mal.


----------



## Jack's Dad

martemchik said:


> Jacks dad, you know, that thing I do, train my dogs with other people. Not just sit on a computer and read things and blindly believe that's the way things are. I'm sure the idea of first hand experience if foreign to you, but people still do it in this age of Google and Wikipedia.


Well I know what you say you do. But alas it's the internet so I don't know for sure. It is amazing though what a couple of years of IPO will do. Actually it's kinda frightening.

As for me you don't have a clue what I have or have not done and I suggest you tone back the rhetoric about what you think my life is about.


----------



## Nigel

Locally, we have mostly Gsds, a few labs, one short lived (career) mal., and a pitttie, Not 100% sure about King and Pierce counties (Seatac) but going off what info I can find, they are mainly GSD as well. The northwest seems to do its own thing with a number of issues, the switching to mals doesn't seem to be catching on as much as other locations I guess.


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## Gwenhwyfair

My Neighbor is an active duty police officer and dog lover. We were chatting about his departments K9s, smaller department two Malinios.

At a traffic stop suspect tried to flee. They sent one of the malis. When the K9 officer recalled the dog as another police officer crossed in between K9 officer and mali's path.

The Mali bit the officer and would not out. They had to use a break stick. The officers leg required medical treatment. This was not the first time this dog had bit an officer.

They are now looking to replace the dog.





Vandal said:


> I don't have stats on any of this, (I'm sure there are very good Mals working on PDs)..... this is just what I recall about some of the Police Dogs.
> 
> *I saw some horrific injuries to handlers from Mals who just were not right in their head. *Again, they saved money on the purchase but the officer who left training via a medivac helicopter because a Mal took her knee out must have cost them a bundle. I heard a lot about nutty, HA Mals on PDs that had to be replaced.
> 
> edited to add: Many of us always felt the GSDs who didn't cut it in SchH could do police work. Of course, SchH was different then. That being said, even the lesser GSDs were not causing those types of problems. Yes, this was some years ago but I still hear about the returned Mals who are trying to eat their handlers. We hear more about this in GSDs now. The HA, like it is a good thing. Nothing useful there...sorry to the big egos.


----------



## Whiteshepherds

Jack's Dad said:


> martemchik said:
> 
> 
> 
> GSD?
> 
> _"Many departments have gone to hounds for searching and then mals/gsds for the actual apprehension. It just makes sense. The hound can find the person faster and with more accuracy. Then you follow the dog with a car and a dog capable of apprehension in there. Not only is the tracking faster, the apprehension dog isn't tired from the search and can be even more effective at that portion of it_."
> 
> Honestly, where do you come up with this stuff? Can you cite where you got this info.
> It's past time you started proving some of this stuff.
> Citations please.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, back in the early 2000's the CT State PD's canine unit had 3 Bloodhounds they used for long term tracking situations. Not sure if they still have them.
Click to expand...


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## martemchik

Sorry guys, but unless you list your age and experience in the breed, your real life knowledge doesn't matter much on this forum. Please list your age, experience, and probably a link to a website made in 1995 so that we can kind of confirm who you are and credit/discredit anything you have to say.

We might start requiring the listing of any advanced degrees you hold as this forum is quickly becoming the highest authority peer reviewed journal on the GSD on this planet.

But I guess if you decide to not do any of that, we will all just assume you are the highest authority on GSDs alive today.


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## lhczth

Max, are you from Missouri?


----------



## counter

I am the highest authority in my own thread!

Yes?

No?

Oh.

Darn.

Please keep it healthy and civil. A lot of us are learning A LOT. I enjoy reading what EVERYONE is writing. I don't enjoy any arguing in my thread. If you wish to turn this to debate, please start your own thread or debate via PMs. Based on the high post and view count, there are a lot of people not posting, who ARE reading along and learning a ton. Thank you for that. *I just ask that everyone post replies to educate the silent majority, versus argue and get the thread locked because you disagree with the vocal minority.*

That is all!


----------



## martemchik

What's in Missouri? I'm foreign so I might not get this one...

Wait...I think I got it! The show me state! Is that it?


----------



## Nigel

lhczth said:


> Max, are you from Missouri?


:rofl:


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## misslesleedavis1

Whats in Missouri?


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Plenty of PDs want a dog with acceptable nerve and piles of prey. They want crazy object drive, hunt, retrieving machine.

Same with border patrol though they want even more prey/object from the sounds of things.

Different PDs have different standards. Dogs have quality levels ranging from crap to great.

A lot of them are what some would call prey monkeys. 

I think the main issue with Mals is they take a handler that has a clue. Many K9 handlers are capable of working those dogs but many are not and get chewed up. I recall a vendor complaining that he had to be careful with what he sold to PDs. They needed softer more biddable dogs then what he had previously been importing.

Had a KNPV gsd mix go through several depts and be returned for handler aggression. Truth is he is an average dog nothing more. Now with a sport handler. You get a reasonably hard dog, high prey, lots of fire and you start beating on him right off the bat or act like your scared of him then yes..you may get some stitches. 
Try that crap with a dog from Duco II lines or Carlos and see were you end up.

Then again some of those Mals are culls that were sold to those stupid americans.


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## Gwenhwyfair

O.k. Then in the spirit of the below.

One of my favorite sigs I've seen here is: To Err is Human, To Forgive is Canine. 

I wasn't going to post this because I've posted this before and didn't want to sound like a broken record. To a certain point this thread is a road that's been travelled before, many times, but there has been some new info and thoughts shared which are great.

A little history, about the working vs show split. This applies to all breeds which come from a heritage of work, be it hunting/a gun dog, herding, guarding, draft dogs pulling carts for farmers and on.

Prior to the industrial revolution owning a dog as a pet only was a luxury most could not afford. Wealthy people may keep some as pets or have hunting dogs for the sport of it, but most could not afford that. A dog had to literally pull it's weight, earn it's living else it was a burden to the farmer, family that owned it. With only a few exceptions most dogs owned by the average folk were working dogs. Also culling of dogs that were not able to earn their keep was matter of fact and brutal. None of this "find a pet home" for those that did not have the ability to fulfill their roles. They were usually culled, killed.

Enter the Victorian Age and the Industrial Age. With an increase of wealth and distribution of that wealth becoming more broad there came into existence dog fanciers who began organizing and showing dogs. Concurrently a lot of people moved away from small towns and their agricultural roots and didn't need the working dog in their factory job. Thus began the splits you see between working dogs and show and pets. This problem is often made worse by the money and politics that comes with the show and sport world (see Carmen's post about the beginning of the split in the SV).

As workers gained more bargaining power and earned more income they had enough disposable income to own dogs as pets. They were far enough removed from their agricultural and hunting roots that they did not demand a dog that could do the tasks for which it was originally bred.

This trend continues today. There are third world countries where owning a dog still is considered a luxury today. 

As mentioned earlier there is pretty much a split in every breed in that was I intended to perform a job.

With the guarding/protection breeds such as rotties, Dobies and GSDs another more modern problem is liability. The Dobies are a poster child for watering down a guarding breed. A lot of that due to the fact that they went through a period of increased awareness about aggression and Dobies biting people. That's not the case any longer and in part due to them being bred away from those genetics that made them a guarding/protection breed.

(Btw when I use the term "work" it's intended to be generic for all breeds having a job or task they were bred to do and for brevity, not as defined by the AKC groups.)




counter said:


> I am the highest authority in my own thread!
> 
> Yes?
> 
> No?
> 
> Oh.
> 
> Darn.
> 
> Please keep it healthy and civil. A lot of us are learning A LOT. I enjoy reading what EVERYONE is writing. I don't enjoy any arguing in my thread. If you wish to turn this to debate, please start your own thread or debate via PMs. Based on the high post and view count, there are a lot of people not posting, who ARE reading along and learning a ton. Thank you for that. *I just ask that everyone post replies to educate the silent majority, versus argue and get the thread locked because you disagree with the vocal minority.*
> 
> That is all!


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

One more thought counter.

Debate can be a good thing, as long as it doesn't become personal.

Debating the future of the GSD is what this is really about.


----------



## lhczth

Gwenhwyfair said:


> The Dobies are a poster child for watering down a guarding breed. A lot of that due to the fact that they went through a period of increased awareness about aggression and Dobies biting people. That's not the case any longer and in part due to them being bred away from those genetics that made them a guarding/protection breed.


 And what came out of that was a breed so removed from their working heritage that they are only a nervy shell of themselves. Finding a good working Dobe is like trying to find a needle in haystack the size of the USA. 

The first dog I worked was a Dobe.


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## Saphire

My best friend had 4 Dobes that not even thieves were afraid of as they broke into her home. Stole her "personal" toys and loonie jar!! The biggest message sent to her was her crated dogs were loose when she came home. We still laugh about this.

What we don't laugh about was her heartache of breeding. She did everything right...parents were Champions and health tested galore but entire litter tested positive for von willebrand. She was heartbroken.


----------



## misslesleedavis1

Saphire said:


> My best friend had 4 Dobes that not even thieves were afraid of as they broke into her home. Stole her "personal" toys and loonie jar!! The biggest message sent to her was her crated dogs were loose when she came home. We still laugh about this.


Funny what people steal,

My mothers car was broken into and they stole a bottle of sealed fruit juice.


----------



## martemchik

What's funny to me is that as much complaining that just went on about the SV and their single message, the people on this forum just want people to lay down and accept their message just as easily. No need to back it up, just make statements and have everyone agree. The moment you question anything, you get attacked, you have your own reputation/experience questioned. 

Kind of interesting how when the message that is being forced down other people's throats is one you agree with, its fine. But when that message isn't what you personally agree with, the people doing the forcing are pure evil.


----------



## björn

Martemchick, what is it that you don´t agree with really and can´t accept?


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

The great news is the majority of GSD are incapable of being more then a pet. So there owners can be happy with them, take them to petsmart training and also tell people they meet how protectice rex is..lol. No need to worry about the pet market, its well serviced with knockoffs .


----------



## cliffson1

I think that some underestimate the intelligence of a majority of people reading the forum. A very high percent of the readers resonate with posts and messages that either make sense or reflect what they have seen in general. 
I think they also realize when they read posts that don't reflect what they see in general. I firmly believe that if a person continually make posts that don't reflect a sense of reality, that most folks won't develop faith in them. Conversely, I think that if people make posts that are insightful and reflective of reality, then people will come to have faith in those posts. Of course no one and nothing is absolute, but I thinks folks on this forum knows who is who from their own reasoning.


----------



## RocketDog

Well said Cliff. Thank you for such a concise post.


----------



## martemchik

That's right, 3 people's reality is the only reality.

What I want is to help people and myself understand more about the type of dog that Cliff, Anne, Lisa, carmen, ect, value. And why that dog is different from today's dogs.

The way I see it, it's hard to convince someone that doesn't understand "advanced training" that the dogs are bad because those people are looking outside their windows at the thousands of K9 GSD still out there. So in my mind, when this select group talks about how the dogs aren't the same, they're saying they're worse, and they can't do the job that people need them to do. Well, if that's so, how are there all those dogs out there in public service? Those people, also see any kind of training past a simple CGC level as amazing and when you show any type of extra obedience are usually floored by what the dog can do.

On the other hand, you also have a lot of members who just have "pets" and don't understand the first thing about what it would take to have a true working dog. They have normal, stable, non-reactive animals who fit in perfectly fine into their households. Most people I meet have GSDs like that, so why would those peoples reality be that today's dogs are again, sub par?

Maybe it's where I live, and the dogs I see around me at my club and around my city that I just don't agree that the situation is as dire as some of you say. Maybe I havent seen enough crap yet to make the statements you guys are making, but I'd personally like to stay a lot more optimistic about this breed and where it's going.


----------



## Moriah

Martemchik says: _Maybe it's where I live, and the dogs I see around me at my club and around my city that I just don't agree that the situation is as dire as some of you say. Maybe I havent seen enough crap yet to make the statements you guys are making, but I'd personally like to stay a lot more optimistic about this breed and where it's going._

Going forward is a lot more productive than looking back. 

I believe there is more than a handful of people bettering the breed. And yes, I don't know "anything" about GSDs and this post can be easily dismissed, but the "good ole days" also had their negatives no matter what the topic is about the good ole days.

In Aristotle's day they were complaining how bad teenagers were. . . . .


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Part of the problem is conflating precise knowledge and experience (pedigrees, training, breeding of WLs) with larger drivers that direct the evolution of dog breeds.

Both are legitimate but separate factors that should be considered.

I also think those passionate about WLs, who express great concern on the direction of the GSD should be willing to own some of the weaknesses within their own community that is part (not all mind you) of the problem. NOT to berate or belittle but because understanding that may help them achieve their goals in the future.


----------



## Nigel

Are gsds from 20-30 years ago that much different from todays? Is it possible that all those years of experience a person gains could create an ever increasing list of criteria in finding the perfect gsd? If so, It would make sense that as a person becomes more experienced, they would also become more discerning, making it appear that there are less good dogs.


----------



## lhczth

Nigel, I think you hit it on the head. I will not say that the dogs today are worse. They are mostly just different. The problem is they are also mostly the same (as Anne pointed out earlier) especially in the states. It is very difficult to maintain balance when you have no, or very few, dogs that can bring balance. Believe me, I have been looking. 

Andy Maly Vah (did I spell that right, Jane?) and Hannes Spadener Holz were probably two of the rare few as is Mac v.d Kine. The former are both dead the latter is getting old.


----------



## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

I have been following this thread from the begining mostly because I had hoped that Counter's request that folks critique Nara's pedigree would be answered.I was hoping I could start to learn about the different blood lines from the old herding lines and what dogs on her pedigree represents the different historical lines particularly the genetic obedience and maybe the old herding lines.Things seem to have went in a different direction. I read this thread over the past several days and promised myself I would stay out and just lurk.However I still wonder about counter's original request .I have read all the older threads re herding lines and genetic obedience. I know Carmen and others have given some answers but I'd like to hear about the different Kennels and breeders who helped create the dog that Nara is although I know that Nara's behavior has been shaped by Counter.

The second thing is after reading all the responses and having read Von Stephanwitz multiple times (I even have it on my Nook)I wonder about his expectation of a GSD and how they would fair in this 21st century when instead of estates we have lots and liability is what it is.I am of course a non expert and one of those "pet owners". I will never be a breeder .My experience is limited. I'm probably not going to be SAR team member or excel in a Schutzhund III or an advanced IPO titles. So should I even have a GSD? Three years ago after having a BYB and rescue GSDs I was sure that I was right for a GSD. Now I have alot of doubts because I started reading here and in alot of other places. The more Im on this forum the more I wonder if the true GSD as Von Stephanwitz saw them should be a pet for the majority of us who have them as pets.(not talking about the majority of folks on here) I love reading in his book about how his dogs loved and protected children. They also ran vagrants off the estate,treed kids stealing fruit from the orchard and occasionally bite miscreants who were up to no good.His vision of the GSD was a jack of all trades who was adaptable to whatever enviroment he landed in and Max didnt talk alot about how his lovely dogs became such fantastic farm and family dogs or how they were trained to move with him from one military camp to another and live in the housing secured for their lodging.I on my first read thought hey its just a natural part of the breed genetic. Three modern GSDs later I have some questions about that now but then maybe I never owned a "real GSD". So my other question is"is there room in the world for a pet GSD who tags along with the parent to pick kids up from school soccer ,volleyvoll. The GSD who stands about protectively as kids play in the back yard ,goes on vacation w/ families spends time home alone and gets some long walks and runs w/ the parents.The final thing is health how do we beat this scourge of cancer ,DM and the disease Carmen talked of. Is that OK for a GSD to be or should that family look to another breed?If it is OK for a GSD to be the family pet what line ,what kennel names would likely produce this ?


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## Susan_GSD_mom

Daisy&Lucky's Mom--

:thumbup:

Susan


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## carmspack

Daisy your hopes for this direction in the discussion 

quote "Nara's pedigree would be answered.I was hoping I could start to learn about the different blood lines from the old herding lines and what dogs on her pedigree represents the different historical lines particularly the genetic obedience and maybe the old herding lines"

couldn't be done because this dog quote "


carmspack said:


> qbchottu said
> "This pedigree is kind of all over the place. Doesn't really seem to be any rhyme or reason to it. The dogs are so far removed from anything of worth that one cannot really say with certainty what this combo will produce because there is no consistency of type or lineage"
> 
> nothing could be further from this analysis . This pedigree is so intensely narrowed in the gene pool that it may as well represent a new breed with a new founder . That being Canto Wienerau.
> I looked at the pedigree more than once just to be sure . Each time I went to the 6th generation.
> 
> Did not see any
> "small smattering of DDR and W German Working lines"
> 
> Pure show -- heavy duty Uran Wildsteigerland -- Canto
> 
> So deliberate and consistent that I had to check whether I had been stuck and was repeating the same dog or whether I had advanced to the next dog .
> 
> Try it . Nara Simha Devi Vom Engel
> 
> enter this pedigree . Now go to the very last dog that the show and click and That dog's 3 generation pedigree shows.
> 
> this shows you the inbreeding on Fanto Maifeld
> *5 - 4* *VA5 Lasso di Val Sole* *00.39%* *03.13%* *5 - 4,5* *VA1 Canto von Arminius* *00.39%* *03.71%* *5 - 5* *VA2 Quanto von der Wienerau* *00.20%* *02.34%*
> 
> 
> 
> Babsy Friedewald *3 - 3* *2X VA1 Uran vom Wildsteiger Land* *03.14%* *06.45%* ↳4 - 4 ↳V12 Irk von Arminius ↳5 - 5 ↳V Pirol von Arminius ↳5 - 5 ↳V Dunja vom Weilachtal ↳4,5 - 4 ↳V Palme vom Wildsteiger Land ↳5 - 5 ↳VA5 Fina vom Badsee ↳5 - 5 ↳V Nick von der Wienerau *5,5 - 4* *VA16 Zorro vom Haus Beck* *00.39%* *03.32%*
> 
> Zito Badener Land
> *4,4 - 4* *2X VA1 Uran vom Wildsteiger Land* *00.78%* *04.88%* ↳5,5,5 - 4,5 ↳V Palme vom Wildsteiger Land ↳5,5 - 5 ↳V12 Irk von Arminius *5 - 4* *V Xaver von Arminius* *00.39%* *02.54%*
> 
> Espe Mausespitz
> 
> *4 - 3,4* *VA6 Odin von Tannenmeise* *01.59%* *06.93%* ↳5 - 4,5 ↳SG3 Häsel von Tannenmeise *5 - 4,5,5* *2X VA1 Quando von Arminius* *00.40%* *05.86%* *5 - 5* *V16 Dax von der Wienerau* *00.20%* *01.71%* *5,5 - 5* *2X VA1 Uran vom Wildsteiger Land* *00.20%* *02.54%* *5 - 5* *V Xaver von Arminius* *00.20%* *01.76%* *5 - 5* *V Palme vom Wildsteiger Land* *00.20%* *02.15%*
> 
> 
> Ursus Batu
> 
> *3 - 3* *VA6 Odin von Tannenmeise* *03.17%* *06.93%* ↳4 - 4 ↳SG3 Häsel von Tannenmeise ↳5 - 5 ↳V Dixie von Tannenmeise ↳4 - 4 ↳2X VA1 Quando von Arminius *4,5 - 5* *2X VA1 Uran vom Wildsteiger Land* *00.39%* *03.32%* *5 - 5,5* *V16 Dax von der Wienerau* *00.20%* *02.49%* *5,5 - 5,5* *V Xaver von Arminius* *00.20%* *03.32%* *5,5,5,5 - 5,5* *V Palme vom Wildsteiger Land* *00.20%* *05.27%*
> 
> Ilka haus Fruhauf
> 
> *3 - 4,5* *2X VA1 Uran vom Wildsteiger Land* *01.57%* *05.66%* ↳4 - 4,5,5 ↳V Palme vom Wildsteiger Land ↳5 - 5 ↳VA5 Fina vom Badsee ↳5 - 5,5 ↳V Nick von der Wienerau ↳4 - 5 ↳V12 Irk von Arminius *5 - 5* *VA5 Lasso di Val Sole* *00.20%* *02.34%*
> 
> 
> Karats Olex
> *4,5 - 5,5* *2X VA1 Uran vom Wildsteiger Land* *00.39%* *04.10%* *5 - 4* *V Quina von Arminius* *00.40%* *04.30%* *5 - 4,4* *VA7 Fedor von Arminius* *00.40%* *04.49%* *5 - 5* *V1 Dando aus Nordrheinland* *00.20%* *02.25%* *5 - 5* *V Palme vom Wildsteiger Land* *00.20%* *02.15%*
> 
> Lissi Grauen
> 
> *4,5 - 4* *2X VA1 Uran vom Wildsteiger Land* *00.78%* *04.10%* ↳5 - 5 ↳V12 Irk von Arminius *5 - 5,5* *V Palme vom Wildsteiger Land* *00.20%* *02.93%*
> 
> 
> 
> and if you were to follow the 6th generation back in the same manner you would have Canto in the center , the trunk of the tree.
> 
> all show lines.
> 
> I am glad your dog is as wonderful as she is for you .


not the lines to look for what you wanted to discuss . 

as to the second half of your question "So my other question is"is there room in the world for a pet GSD who tags along with the parent to pick kids up from school soccer ,volleyvoll. The GSD who stands about protectively as kids play in the back yard ,goes on vacation w/ families spends time home alone and gets some long walks and runs w/ the parents.The final thing is health how do we beat this scourge of cancer ,DM and the disease Carmen talked of. Is that OK for a GSD to be or should that family look to another breed?If it is OK for a GSD to be the family pet what line ,what kennel names would likely produce this ? "

answer -- YES, of course, a product of a programme that selects for balance .
__________________


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## Jack's Dad

Well I think Carmen nailed it on balance.

I too wonder Daisy&Lucky's Mom.

I don't know if GSDs were better in the old days but most of the ones I run into out and about I wouldn't want.

There are some really nice ones but I have also seen and heard of many with the health problems you mentioned and others are real spooks. Hyper active and reactive and not right for most homes.

In my ignorance I can't understand why it is difficult to have dogs with real sound nerves and good health. It doesn't seem like too much to ask for.

Maybe it's because breeders are to worried about "exceptional" or "podium" dogs. Then there are breeders on the other end of the spectrum who don't worry about anything except selling dogs.


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## Vandal

This is an article from the early 1980's from the president of the SV. This is the time period where all these debates first started. Without hurting anyone's feelings, we have seen what has "atrophied" in the SL dog when the judges stopped asking the breeders to produce it. We have also seen an increase in one kind of working line dog and that is a problem for the BREED. Use it or lose it. 



> If I ( as president of the SV) talk about the above subject, it is not with the intent to interfere with the activities of the training coordinator, Mr Koster and his committee. At issue here are the general observations which concern the training of the German Shepherd Dog. Things which I have noticed in the past few years and which are worth discussing.
> Lately, protection work has often been the subject of discussion, especially the promotion of prey drive. Much has been said and written about this subject and I must say that there is no such thing as “ the one and only training method”. It is definitely wrong to describe the prey method as the only method. The prey drive has always been used in training, a fact which is familiar to everyone who has been involved in training for a few years. However, bringing the dog along by prey drive EXCLUSIVELY must be rejected. In ordeer to preserve the Shepherd’s reputation as the number one protection dog from the genetic point of view training must *promote not only the prey drive. It is a well known fact that unused qualities atrophy and the loss od defense and protection drive would be an outright catastrophe.
> *What would a Shepherd be if he had nothing but a learned passion for the sleeve- no protection drive and no defense drive. This discussion is not meant to sanction reckless promotion of only the defense and protection drives as this would be wrong because the Shepherd is NOT bred for protection only. Any kind of over-emphasis , and here lies the mistake of many training coordinators and trainers, means specialization and if it is practiced for an extended period , would establish precisely defined use areas for the dog.
> The German Shepherd is the best service dog in the world because of his versatility. It is also quite possible that this specialization could also effect the dog’s conformation. In this respect also, anything that is overdone is detrimental. Harmony and balance in conformation is just as important as harmony and balance in the dog’s training.
> In spite of the above, the APPEARANCE of the dog remains important, because it denotes how the dog presents itself to the public. The dog is judged by the public solely on the impression he makes and this includes his character traits. His image depends on his behavior. For this reason the carefree deportment including self-confidence and good naturedness the dog is educated to display must be tested. But this is nothing new and has been happening continuously at trials , breed surveys, shows and the courage tests at the yearly Sieger Show.
> If the SV wants to promote and improve the positive service dog traits . It can only do so via the avenue of planned breeding. When breedings are planned, the partners must not only be evaluated with respect to their anatomical faults and good points but must also undergo scrutiny with respect to service dog traits and character traits, presumed present in the genetic pool. We must try, by means of suitable tests, to evaluate the traits which are, ( at least partial), heritable; that means to evaluate the genotype of the dog.
> At this point let me also discuss something which worries me and which is very much part of Shepherd training. Once in a we while we see German Shepherds who received very high scores at the trial but who. In the eyes of the experienced, still display insecurity. This behavior can have several reasons- all anchored in the psychological make-up of the dog. For instance, the dog may have a new owner, was put into a completely different environment or is not feeling well. However, we are also able to pinpoint dogs who have been conditioned by “training tricks” to pass the trial . If such dogs are faced with new situations they often show weaknesses and lacking confidence. We must identify these dogs and PREVENT THEM FROM REPRODIUCING, because despite their training title they do not quite display the desired German Shepherd character which is defined as follows:
> Intermediate irritability threshold, willingness to cooperate, hardness, courage and fighting drive.”
> I want to re-emphasize strongly here that the essence and purpose of the SV members MUST NOT BE to only own, breed and train TOP DOGS. It is wrong to only work for the “top”, no matter at what cost. I am of the opinion that the GOOD AVERAGE DOG matters most, if only to not solely set attainable goals for a few chosen dogs, and whereby the handlers then try to reach these goals by methods employing “not so nice” techniques. Top accomplishments are often only attainable by the use of technical aids, I.e. shock collars, which are prohibited by the SV. NATURAL methods must be made the basis for all training. It must happen that ONLY the top dogs are being promoted , because it is the wide range of quality that made the SV big and strong.
> At this point I would like to call upon the sense of responsibility of trainers, breeders and the vigilance of all judges to stem these tides. To HIDE the character faults equals INFLICTING DAMAGE ON THE GENETIC RESOURCES of the German Shepherd breed. I am happy to state however, that the above problems are not too widespread but watchfulness is still in order.
> In conclusion, I would like to address a plea to all Shepherd fanciers, but especially those who are active in training. Do not attempt to take your dog to the top at any price. There is a tendency that average scores at trials as well as shows are looked upon as failures. Everyone tries, also the dog, to give his best according to his ability, expertise and conditions on trial day. For the German Shepherd breed, and this must be said clearly and once and for all, the AVERAGE OF ALL DOGS, i.e. the dogs with intermediate ratings are the most important. It is disgraceful to observe that sometimes it is not for the LOVE FOR THE ANIMAL, the German Shepherd breed , but the HANDLER’S ambitions which dominate. With all respect to the sport-oriented competition, only the training methods that DO NOT MAKE USE OF ARTIFICIAL AIDS should be employed. It is UNNATURAL if only the use of these technical gadgets makes it possible for a dog to get top scores. This does not serve the breed and definitely not the natural selection process for the breeding stock which is based on training results, which should be practiced by a breed club.
> May these lines serve to direct this excessive fervor back on the right track, so that the enjoyment of training the German Shepherd does not get the short end of the stick for our trainers and breeders.


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## RocketDog

Wow. The last third of that imho is very important.


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## carmspack

Vandal , that piece is just as relevant , maybe even more so , than the day it was written.
Applies 100% to the "what is exceptional" thread.

how strange this from the 1980's , " sometimes it is not for the LOVE FOR THE ANIMAL, the German Shepherd breed , but the HANDLER’S ambitions which dominate."

yet I was told this no less than 2 years ago -- that some of the big players in sport really don't even like dogs , it is about their ego and the dogs are a means to that need.


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## carmspack

RocketDog said:


> Wow. The last third of that imho is very important.


I agree . The entire piece was excellent , but on this third part I have to comment that operant conditioning has gone too far . I cringe when I see dogs reduced to trick trained seals that you would see at some seaquarium . Takes all the relationship out of training , which the GSD as a dog with its heritage in herding has to have in spades. 
Be prepared for a unicorns comment, but there had to be a working partnership and intuitive skills, and self motivation and decision making .

Can you tell which dogs have this any more?


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

Carmen Thank you for showing me where the thread covered my request. Sometimes i get lost on these longer threads and now that you pointed it out I remember. I also might have been confusing Weinerau and wildsteiger w/ another kennel name and thought they were more herding lines. Note to self gotta learn more about reading pedigrees.


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## RocketDog

Well, I was also referring to the statement that owning the "good average German Shepherd should be the most important" and to not work only for the top dogs. I.E. Lose the balance in favor of one trait/score.


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## Vandal

Just let me insert this. I had difficulty with the term exceptional in the other thread but I answered anyway. I used the term epitome of a German Shepherd dog when I talked about Enno. To me, it is an an exceptional breed of dog. Therefore, an average GSD, meaning one that has the necessary traits to be a German Shepherd, is exceptional.
I would simply like to see it remain an exceptional breed. That's where my comments come from, that belief.


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## martemchik

Agree with a ton of that. But will raise the question, do you really see the majority of breeders breeding to the high placing dogs? I mean, yes, the big dogs do get bred to more nominally than the "moderate" ones...and the high placing dogs or the flavor of the month dog is bred to a lot. But as a percentage of all dogs produced, is it that many?

Do you meet that many people with dogs out of Drago, out of Bomber, out of whoever wins the nationals/worlds? Not really...and when you do meet the crazy, fearful, dysplastic dog, are they out of those big dogs of the year? I mean, even on this forum we don't have many people with a dog that has a common parent. So is the breeding of those top dogs really that big of a deal?

I guess I see way more dogs produced locally. I can name the sires, they're known, and they're producing healthy/stable dogs that are just fine in the hands of the people they are sold to. I also rarely meet a dog that has the same sire or dam as another one I know (unless it's at training).

I love the balance/health argument. The dog that is capable of being a family dog first and foremost. I don't look for podium dogs personally, I look for family dogs. But unfortunately to me it sounds too much like, if the dog makes a good pet, is healthy, and shows some ability to work, that makes it moderate/balanced and then it would produce that type of dog. And I know that's not the argument Carmen and Anne are making, but it does kind of sound like that's what it's leaning towards.


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## martemchik

That enno dog sounded fantastic btw...would've liked to see what exactly he did to lead you to those conclusions and the way you describe him. Just to be able to picture it and understand exactly what it is you look for. If you do happen to have any videos of his progeny, I'd definitely like to see it. I like being able to compare what I see at my club, to what other see and how they judge dogs.


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## RocketDog

I disagree,pardon me for putting words into anybody's mouth but that is not the impression that I get from Vandal at all nor Carmspack.

I still think that the German Shepherd dog should incite in people the question (or fear . ) wow can I handle that breed? Much the same way that I think the average pet dog owner can't handle a proper border collie. (very different reasons but nonetheless a breed should hold true to its ideal--not dumb down the breed so everybody can own one).

But not also because the dog is extreme in one direction-- as in the lines of the discussion about podium and sport dogs being crazy


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## martemchik

Yeah, maybe it's not them. But it's the message I kind of gather from that quote.

So I guess my question is more...if you consider a working dog to be so special, let's use "exceptional," how do you expect to get that from a well balanced "pet"?

And trust me...I wish people would think twice before buying a GSD, it would definitely help eliminate those breeders that are breeding for the market that can't handle a true working dog. But I kind of get the feeling that what Anne and Carmen are also saying is that if the dog is balanced...it can be a family dog and those people wouldn't have a problem with them. Correct me if I'm wrong.


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## lhczth

Yes, a well balanced dog should be able to also be a family dog.


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## RocketDog

@ max: still don't really think that's the direction of their thoughts. However, if you go with your question, I would guess that depends on the quality of the 'pet' owner. There are pet owners, then there are people that train, utilize, work their dogs, even if not in a recognized 'working' venue like SAR, IPO, LE, etc. 

Also remember, that say a litter has 7 acceptable puppies. Maybe only 2 (3?) are standouts, with enough hunt and prey drive to work in an official capacity or are ones the breeder wants to hold back for their own program. Maybe 2-3 are on the fence, and most likely would be fine in all fields of work. Maybe 1-2 are still good products of that breeding and *could* possibly work in _some_ fields, but are suitable in homes that provide the necessary training and stimulation. 

I don't know, I don't have enough experience to say for sure. Just my thoughts in general from a 'pet home' right now. I can say, based upon my experience in the last 25 years of seeing, meeting and being around animals as pets, I have met very few that actually could match the obedience training I've put on my animals. Differences in pet homes, clearly.


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## martemchik

No doubt! I'm talking about the types of pet homes where people don't do anything with their dogs. The majority of pet homes lol. I don't consider most people on this forum as those types of homes because they're training and they're learning about their dogs and the breed. They want to learn more and are generally much more knowledgeable. But let's be serious, most homes are the ones where the dog gets an 8 week course in obedience at the local petsmart (if they're lucky) and then get fed, maybe walked (if not just let out into the yard), and once in a while get to play with the owners.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

RocketDog said:


> I still think that the German Shepherd dog should incite in people the question (or fear . ) wow can I handle that breed? Much the same way that I think the average pet dog owner can't handle a proper border collie. (very different reasons but nonetheless a breed should hold true to its ideal--not dumb down the breed so everybody can own one


 
Rocketdog I think the dumbing down is the price of popularity.That is perhaps the problem inherent in the American GSD or the world of GSDs for the past perhaps fifty years as he has been in the top three or at least the top 10 owned breeds.Popularity does not seem to help breeds stay true to their original purpose and overbreeding can cause the myriad of health issues we see.. I have stated to look at Cardiagn Welsh Corgi's just seing them in shows and reading about breeders and talking to fanciers. They have fallen out of the public eye and are considered quite rare even in England. They are considered or so I have been told a fairly primitive breed in that the standard hasnt changed and the dogs still have much in common with their ancestors. The GSD is definitely not a primitive breed and like many popular dog breeds has many splits and there is someone selling GSDs on every street corner. I think thats where the dumbing down of the dogs has happened or the breeding for color or angulation or prey drive.Falling out of popularity over time can cause the breed to go away and it would appear that overbreeding and popularity takes its toll in the quality and abilities of a breed.

Carmen's point to me regarding whether the GSD should be a family pet was that a balanced breeding program neeeded to be sought.Would the same apply if I wanted a sport dog?Perhapsthe GSD should be able to do everything moderately and some things expertly or is it the that all GSD should have the ability to learn?
For me I always have thought Carmen's dogs and some of the other breeders on here were my fantasy dogs b/c honestly based on my lifestyle I would not want to take that dogs and have their talents wasted on me. However as Ive had more experience I now realize just how important balanced breeding is even in pet such as what my dogs are.I personally believe that guide dogs are such as incredible animals as are the assistance/service dogs. Talk about needing to be handler sensitive.. I spent time at a conference with Canine Companions who have breeding program that mixes yelow labs w/ goldens and they have their own line . These dogs are phenomonal at what they do as service/assistance dogs and courthouse dogs. Incredibly handler oriented ,very smart and just so sweet. Would that be a non- appropirate GSD job?


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## martemchik

I know an AKC obedience judge, who has always had GSDs and has achieved an Otch, who with his wife is raising their 3rd canine companion puppy. No matter how balanced your breeding program is for a GSD, it will never be that type of dog. The breed is just inherently different. And choosing a GSD for that job, is just making it more difficult on the trainer and the handler for no reason except that you want a service dog that looks like a GSD.


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## carmspack

question "if you consider a working dog to be so special, let's use "exceptional," how do you expect to get that from a well balanced "pet"?"

answer -- because it is a well balanced DOG of this BREED . All portions of the GSD's character are given
consideration and contribute to the whole .

When you neglect or want to eliminate parts then the entire entity is off balance . 
You no longer can depend on traits being present or reliable . 

There are breeds , which look like GSD that have been developed to meet the needs that some pet homes want to enjoy. 

Not everyone should own a GSD . Some people should not own a dog.


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## carmspack

"GSDs and has achieved an Otch, who with his wife is raising their 3rd canine companion puppy. No matter how balanced your breeding program is for a GSD, it will never be that type of dog. "

why? or rather why not ?
I've had them, one was an Obedience Grand Victrix .

She produced a male who went several times high in trial/ best in breed - finished championship with 3 majors , amateur handler and trialed .
Same lines produced police (rcmp) and guide dogs .

Lierberg (Bernd and Bodo) Grafental (not the one using name without permission) (Bodo and Arko) same thing .


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## martemchik

Some dogs were guide dogs, others weren't in your case.

In the case of canine companions, they need to give themselves the highest chance to have the whole litter be service dogs, not some be service dogs and some be pets.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Agree with others, the piece Anne shared, on the money. 

Years ago someone told me, "German Shepherds aren't number 1 at any one task, but they are number 2 at all of them".

A lot of people just don't find that acceptable. 

Heck you even see it with kids sports where the parents push the kids so hard and get in fights rather then being there for the exercise, to learn sportsmanship and enjoyment of the sport. 

This drive for 'Exceptionalism' that undermines some core values isn't a healthy thing. IMO.




> In conclusion, I would like to address a plea to all Shepherd fanciers, but especially those who are active in training. Do not attempt to take your dog to the top at any price. There is a tendency that average scores at trials as well as shows are looked upon as failures. Everyone tries, also the dog, to give his best according to his ability, expertise and conditions on trial day. For the German Shepherd breed, and this must be said clearly and once and for all, the AVERAGE OF ALL DOGS, i.e. the dogs with intermediate ratings are the most important. It is disgraceful to observe that sometimes it is not for the LOVE FOR THE ANIMAL, the German Shepherd breed , but the HANDLER’S ambitions which dominate.


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## Gwenhwyfair

In bold.

:thumbup::thumbup:




carmspack said:


> question "if you consider a working dog to be so special, let's use "exceptional," how do you expect to get that from a well balanced "pet"?"
> 
> answer -- because it is a well balanced DOG of this BREED . All portions of the GSD's character are given
> consideration and contribute to the whole .
> 
> When you neglect or want to eliminate parts then the entire entity is off balance .
> You no longer can depend on traits being present or reliable .
> 
> There are breeds , which look like GSD that have been developed to meet the needs that some pet homes want to enjoy.
> 
> * Not everyone should own a GSD . Some people should not own a dog*.


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## björn

Times have changed, don´t think all dogs before were better(health maybe) but the more extreme something gets it takes certain traits to win, if I want to win in obedience a BC would be great, to win in IPO at the top a certain dog is better and so on, of course this also will affect some dogs in breedings, a bit calmer dog who is very robust in character I don´t think will be as good in obedience in IPO like a fast dog with super preydrive that also loves to follow his handler above all, the best dog is depending on the use. 

This is a nice dog I think, competed in championships for obediencedogs but also in tracking and more, would he win obedience or IPO world championship, no but he was a dog with solid character that loved to work in many areas, that for me is more important than being able to score 98-100 points in obedience or protection in IPO.


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## cliffson1

Martemchik, here's where you go wrong. When some of us talk about the breed in the past, we are talking collectively. Remember, there was no SL specialty dogs in those days. So if VA dog could and did produce excellent working stock, well it stands to reason there are going to be "collectively ", the breed in an overall better condition. The 80% SL dogs that exist in Germany today, that nobody is running to for a strong working dog didn't exist. Sure there were some weak dogs, but not whole lines of the majority of the breed. Does that make any sense....also, you have never heard me badmouthing today's police dogs. So your statement that we are saying todays police dogs are inferior is erroneous also. I can still and do still find dogs just like the ones back in the day, and they go to police depts, and you don't hear me saying they are second rate.....but it's very difficult to get these type dogs anymore, COMPARED to the past; when 80+ percent of the breed is no longer genetically strong enough. 
Now, if you can't understand what I am saying, again I think most people reading this will, and the state of the SL majority attests to this.


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## Susan_GSD_mom

carmspack said:


> Not everyone should own a GSD . Some people should not own a dog.


I agree 200%. I am so tired of finding dogs listed like this:

? Michigan German Shepherd Rescue ? ADOPTIONS ? RescueMe.Org

The dog I am particularly referring to is named 'Jukka'. Anyone near Grand Blanc that could talk to these people? Maybe they should contact his breeder to see whether he/she would take him.

Susan


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## Vandal

I started writing this earlier in response to Max but got busy, so just posted the statement from the SV President. Ties into a little bit of what Cliff is saying.


Without starting a show line debate, I will simply use it as an example of what can atrophy when you stop using it. There was a time the SL dogs worked in a very similar fashion as the WL dogs. Yeah, still a little different but certainly acceptable and you could use that line to bring something you needed in your WL dog. They helped to achieve a balance. 
Nowadays, people have seemed to accept that it is okay for a SL dog to barely function as a protection dog. Many ‘seem’ to think it has always been that way and it is okay. When they, ( SV, judges), made it possible for these dogs to continue on without using some of the traits that a GSD should have, those traits atrophied like the 1980's statement was warning about. Not sure if the SV even talks about that kind of thing anymore but they did used to discuss the direction of the breed and what breeders needed to pay attention to and adjust. 

Were there crappy working dogs years ago? Yes, of course. There were also, (for example), dogs who were more ‘stubborn’, less willing and were really hard dogs. Hard meaning their resistance to corrections, etc. I didn’t really enjoy every aspect of training those dogs. They were not 'my' type of dog. However, early on, I realized those dogs were actually necessary to maintain the breed, as were all the so called ‘average” dogs who didn’t have it “all” or who were not completely balanced....and no I am not talking about "pets". 

It seems nowadays, more people are selecting dogs that fit how they want to train. There are people promoting one way of training and the majority of trainers are getting on board. To be successful in that training, you need a certain kind of dog and now the market is producing that dog in large numbers. We still need the other types to maintain a balance.

Just like the SL dogs, when you stop using something in the training, it will atrophy. Mostly what I see being sacrificed is the nerve strength and the protective instinct. The "muscle" being used the most, is prey drive. The overwhelming use of balls and treats makes me worry about the natural ‘’'willingness’ the breed is known for vs again, just the prey, play and food drive. Again , use it or lose it.

Another thing I have noticed lately is how well the training now can actually hide some of these traits. In recent times I have seen one dog after the other who looks like crap in protection, only to watch that dog totally transform when a different way of conducting the training is used. Many now resist that kind of training, don't know how to do it or think it is not necessary. Some will complain the training hides the weaknesses but I can absolutely tell you it is _also hiding _some of these other traits as well. That is a problem in that some of these dogs will be eliminated from training/breeding because the inability or unwillingness to put what those dogs have inside, on display, by learning how to train it. 
IPO now is not achieving what it should be, not only because it is watered down but because the new training mentality leaves certain traits to lie dormant in the dog while the other traits are used too much.


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## Gwenhwyfair

I was told by two IPO helpers that the problem with SLs was too much defense, not enough prey, among other things...

Again, I am repeating what I was told by two people with more knowledge then I.

Ilda was tested when I was starting protection with her, she needed work building her prey drive which is what I was instructed how to do.

Also, don't get me wrong, I'm NOT saying SLs are top IPO dogs or anything like that. Just that IRL I've been told different info from experienced people.

I thought the "prey monsters" were the WLs bred for sport based on discussions here.....


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## Blitzkrieg1

Its a nice way of saying they lack the nerve for the work. You add prey to try and cover the nerve issues and get the dog out of flight mode. Most will come off the sleeve or go into avoidance if you arent careful. Even when your trying to build prey with a tug it can happen. The ones developed from pups and nursed along tend to do better from what I see around here. Still have to be careful though.


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## Gwenhwyfair

O.k fair enough. I told them to be honest with me if they didn't think she would cut it. They didn't seem to think we couldn't get her where she needed to be. She was doing real well at the beginning.

I wish we could have stuck with it....next dog hopefully.

Btw check out the new member from Greece in the Introduction welcome mat forum. Take a gander at that first video he posted. Looks suspiciously like a WGSL to me. 




Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Its a nice way of saying they lack the nerve for the work. You add prey to try and cover the nerve issues and get the dog out of flight mode. Most will come off the sleeve or go into avoidance if you arent careful. Even when your trying to build prey with a tug it can happen. The ones developed from pups and nursed along tend to do better from what I see around here. Still have to be careful though.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Also, not to make our ASL friends feel bad either. But I was thinking about what Lisa posted about Dobies, I think the ASLs are about the same in regards to bite sports/protection.

Out of curiosity when was the last ASL dog that did well in IPO? Are there any out there competing in bite sports?


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## Nigel

cliffson1 said:


> Martemchik, here's where you go wrong. When some of us talk about the breed in the past, we are talking collectively. Remember, there was no SL specialty dogs in those days. So if VA dog could and did produce excellent working stock, well it stands to reason there are going to be "collectively ", the breed in an overall better condition. The 80% SL dogs that exist in Germany today, that nobody is running to for a strong working dog didn't exist. Sure there were some weak dogs, but not whole lines of the majority of the breed. Does that make any sense....also, you have never heard me badmouthing today's police dogs. So your statement that we are saying todays police dogs are inferior is erroneous also. I can still and do still find dogs just like the ones back in the day, and they go to police depts, and you don't hear me saying they are second rate.....but it's very difficult to get these type dogs anymore, COMPARED to the past; when 80+ percent of the breed is no longer genetically strong enough.
> Now, if you can't understand what I am saying, again I think most people reading this will, and the state of the SL majority attests to this.


This does make sense, along with Vandals and Carms posts, it suggest a different state of the breed, the gap we see today was minimal in comparison.


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## Nigel

carmspack said:


> yet I was told this no less than 2 years ago -- that some of the big players in sport really don't even like dogs , it is about their ego and the dogs are a means to that need.


thats messed up


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## Merciel

I'm late to the party, but:



Gwenhwyfair said:


> Out of curiosity when was the last ASL dog that did well in IPO? Are there any out there competing in bite sports?


To get a meaningful answer to this question, you'll have to define "did well" and "competing" more concretely.

Are you asking whether there are ASL dogs who have achieved club-level BH or IPO1 titles, even if the latter was achieved with bare minimum scores? Or are you asking whether there are ASLs who have achieved scores of 90+ in all three phases in IPO3 at the regional+ level?

I know of several ASL dogs who have achieved BHs and (arguably, it's mostly a "pet lines" dog so this is fuzzy) one who got an IPO1 with scores that probably wouldn't impress too many people on this board. The dog did pass, though. And then never went beyond that, because the owner moved and no longer had access to a club.

I do not know of any who did better than that. I also do not know of any ASLs who have both AKC championships and IPO titles, although there are a couple of WGSLs who have gotten both AKC championships and IPO titles.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Hi! 

I'm not that picky.

Regional/local titles, as long as protection is included, IPO is fine, or PSA or other bite sort as well.

I recognize that someone may have a great dog but not the time or means to compete at high levels.

A title in some form of protection earned fair and square, that's all.

Which dog earned it's IPO 1 that you mention below?

(In edit, I don't think we should get hung up on scores that impress. What impresses me, at least, is someone who gets out there and puts in their best effort in dogs sports which require a lot of dedication.)



Merciel said:


> I'm late to the party, but:
> 
> 
> 
> To get a meaningful answer to this question, you'll have to define "did well" and "competing" more concretely.
> 
> Are you asking whether there are ASL dogs who have achieved club-level BH or IPO1 titles, even if the latter was achieved with bare minimum scores? Or are you asking whether there are ASLs who have achieved scores of 90+ in all three phases in IPO3 at the regional+ level?
> 
> I know of several ASL dogs who have achieved BHs and (arguably, it's mostly a "pet lines" dog so this is fuzzy) one who got an IPO1 with scores that probably wouldn't impress too many people on this board. The dog did pass, though. And then never went beyond that, because the owner moved and no longer had access to a club.
> 
> I do not know of any who did better than that. I also do not know of any ASLs who have both AKC championships and IPO titles, although there are a couple of WGSLs who have gotten both AKC championships and IPO titles.


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## Merciel

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Which dog earned it's IPO 1 that you mention below?


The dog's name is Ruger. To the best of my knowledge, he doesn't have a registered name or kennel name and there isn't even a formal pedigree, just what the owner knows from talking to the person who bred the litter. That's why I said it was an iffy case -- this is mostly a "pet lines" BYB-type dog. He belongs to a person that I talked to on the Internet, which is the only reason I know about him.

And, to be totally honest, I can't even 100% verify that the dog truly is titled in IPO, because I've never met him or his owner in real life and I don't know their club. But I believe it, for the same reason I believe most people on this board when they say they've done something similar. I am inclined to think that most people aren't going to lie about getting an IPO1 with unexceptional scores on a dog that they aren't looking to breed or sell.

I _want_ to say there's an ASL kennel that either does IPO or has done so in the recent past, but I've been racking my brain trying to think of the name and I'm starting to think I've just confused myself with a breeder of WGSLs who shows them in AKC conformation.

I also want to throw in a caveat that I don't mean to come off as linebashing here, because I know this line of discussion often tends to veer dangerously in that direction. Just because _I_ don't know of that many people/dogs who did a thing doesn't mean that they aren't out there; it just means that there's lots of stuff in the world I don't know about.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Thank you Merciel.

Ya know, just thinking out loud here, so to speak.

Inclusiveness will lead to more demand for better dogs.

Going back to what Anne shared about dogs taking a back seat to "impressive scores".

With respect to GSDs and bite sports the more accessible and welcoming they are to all lines the more people will want to participate, understand, want and breed for dogs with better working ability.

Sometimes the anti this line or that line may have the unintended consequence of alienating and cementing a certain ridigidty in the lines.

If I were running a club I'd seek out ASLs and WGSLs and WLs and if a dog isn't up to protection then at least have them do OB and tracking. Through exposure and inclusiveness maybe some of the differences of the lines could at least be softened and working ability appreciated more and more. It wouldn't happen overnight, the splits didn't happen from one day to the next. Celebrate respectable completion as much as impressive scores.

I've taken friends to IPO trials who had no idea about them or what these dogs were capable of. Their consistent reaction was to be in awe, literally. Mouth open awe, OMG look at what these dogs can do awe. They usually leave with a very different view of training, dogs and German Shepherds.

Just some thoughts..trying to think of positives too.


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## Merciel

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Inclusiveness will lead to more demand for better dogs.
> 
> [...]
> 
> With respect to GSDs and bite sports the more accessible and welcoming they are to all lines the more people will want to participate, understand, want and breed for dogs with better working ability.


Oh, I totally agree. Not just about GSDs and bite sports, but about _all_ dogs in _all_ sport venues. I think it is great to have the most diverse representation possible, to the extent that it is reasonable and feasible to do that. And to do that, we all need to generate and draw from the largest possible pool of interested newbies.

Even my dopey fearful shelter mutt is good for that much: Pongu is a living example that you can do (some) sports with _any_ dog. (There are SO MANY people I've talked to who thought that you could only do sports with purpose-bred "fancy" dogs [literally "fancy" is the word that somebody used at the vet clinic waiting room this morning]. Not true!)

Seeing otherwise helps get "pet people" interested and breaks down the stereotype that you need to have a "special" dog to participate, which I think is good for both dogs and owners. The dogs get to do fun stuff and the owners get exposed to more sophisticated training and handling methods, and hopefully their relationship overall is improved.

I wish I knew how to effectively engage pet owners and get them into dog sports on a bigger scale. I don't know if there is anything that we as individuals can do besides talk about it and raise awareness and hope that a certain percentage of people who become aware of dog sports as a Thing will develop an interest in giving that a try.

But certainly I think it's a good effort to make, and it's something that I try to do as much as my time and patience allow.

Beyond that, I think I've banged on this drum enough in other threads that I'll spare you all the same spiel again. It's important, though!


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