# Half brother/sister



## Nikoboy (Aug 18, 2010)

Found a pup it was breed for the Grandfathers traits is this something I should avoid? They are half brother and sister. Thanks


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Depends on the mating - if the breeder knows what they are doing, it could be a positive. If the breeder does not, it can be a disaster. Personally, I avoid any breeding closer than 2-3. Half siblings to each other would be 2-2 line breeding. 

What is your goal for the puppy - why do you think this is a good match for you - how do you believe this close breeding will help further your goals for the dog?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

The mother of my foundation bitch was a 2-2 linebreeding (actually more than that). It is not something a breeder should do without a lot of knowledge of the dogs and lines they are using (most don't or they are doing it as a matter of convenience).


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I deliberately wanted to consolidate some aspects which would allow me to "go out" and still conserve highly desireable traits in future generations .
this sire "Chill" and two offspring from this combination went in to police service . The female I kept back is the dam and grand dam of many service dogs . Carmspack Sabrina

No health orthopedice or behavioural negatives came out - because before that all the generations backward on the females Kimarli and Jinga (littermates) had been minimized to eliminated . Kimarli was my dam, her sister Jinga produced some notable dogs for a west coast kennel including SAR (rcmp) , top winning SchH , and breed animals. Then this is a result of where I am now with this planned for (close breeding) going out with other genetics 
Carmspack Sumo
who was bred to Chiba Parchimer Land resulting in this combination -- Line-breeding for the progency of Carmspack Sumo and Chiba vom Parchimer Land

I put this out to show you that this scheme can be used to great positive effect . 
On the other hand without knowledge , or I would go so far as to say a person's first or second generation experience , it could represent risk . You have to know what you have , all layers of a pedigree , not just the two being put together . Plus you need to consider what the non-related side of the pedigree , since they are half - related , each one has one different sire , or one different dam , which contribute to the results . Then you have to examine how related they are .

post a pedigree .


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## Nikoboy (Aug 18, 2010)

I will try to post one the father is Icon Vom haus huro and the mother is Discoe Vom haus huro. The grandfather would be V1 Digger Vom Haus Lena


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

breeding: Line-breeding for the progency of UCH VP1 SG14(NASS) Icon Vom Haus Huro and SG2, CAC Discoe vom haus Huro

What is your goal and purpose for the dog? What do you think this close breeding offers you?


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## Nikoboy (Aug 18, 2010)

She will be a friend for my male and some obedience maybe a show or two nothing major. Just want a sound family dog mostly.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

this particular pedigree is already intensely linebred , so see no reason to further reduce the gene pool.

In your example Icon and Discoe share the same sire Digger. So the "other" genetics would be provided by the dams portion. Let's create a virtual breeding to the dam's genetics , Ava and Laika - but you won't get too far with two females so one needs to be represented by a male sibling . Ava did not have any posted so Laika is being represented by her brother Lennox . This is what that breeding would look like Line-breeding for the progency of Lennox vom Teutopaß and Ava von Viera

Having looked at only the Lennox (LAIKA) portion of that pedigree , by going to the last column of dogs on the pedigree data base and seeing the inbreeding/linebreeding I see that there is very little variation in the breeding stock, most being based heavily on Uran Wildsteigerland , so 8 animals (just the sire's portion ) I see this linebreeding on Uran 445 - 54554 - 5355 - 5355 - 344 - 455 - 44 .
on the female represented by Ava - Uran 45 - 43 - 55555 - 44 - BUT throughout the total pedigree there are other routes to Canto Wienerau. 

you decide


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## Nikoboy (Aug 18, 2010)

I guess what I forgot to mention was I really don't have a clue on this linebreeding thing everywhere I look I get different answers I just want a healthy sound pup.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Like most German showlines, the pedigrees of both parents already have a lot of linebreeding and backmassing. Which essentially means that the genetic diversity is diminished. To further limit the genetics by doing such a close inbreeding of half siblings would seem unwise to me. It is one thing to do a close linebreeding to concentrate the genetics of a particular dog when using pedigrees that are otherwise fairly open, but a very different thing entirely to do that when the pedigrees are already somewhat of a genetic bottleneck.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Why this breeder? What has she told you about the pedigree and what she foresees the breeding will produce? What is the overall health and temperament of the breeding dogs? Sire and dam have minimal working titles listed. Have the dogs with schh titles and breed survey been imported with those titles done in Germany?

What does the breeder predict for hips/elbows? Have the xrays been certified by the SV or OFA? Do you get a temperament or health guarantee? What are the stipulations of this contract? Consider all parts of the puzzle. Go meet the dogs, see them work, see how they interact and behave, delve deeper into the lines, research the individual dogs, speak to people that own half siblings or littermates, what do they see in their dogs, how are closely related family members in terms of health and temperament. We do not know these dogs - we can only offer a cursory overview of this pedigree based on bits and pieces on the pedigree. Go out, meet the dogs, get info from other buyers, and make your decision. 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/members/57076-discoetheque.html Looks to be the breeder and handler of Discoe - msg her to get the direct answers.


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## Nikoboy (Aug 18, 2010)

I met all of them grandmother grandfather mom and dad temperaments were great checked bellys for bacterial infections on skin and ears all clean my male has bad allergies.


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## Nikoboy (Aug 18, 2010)

So I take it I should keep looking I gave a deposit and I can transfer it to another litter. Also she was breeding this pair for a female to keep but the only girl came out a long hair and she didn't want her.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

My guess is that the breeder *is* intentionally linebreeding on her dog to keep a dog back and breed *that* dog to a more open pedigree. I do think the breeder is well aware of the linebreeding, whether or not we all agree with it or would want to do the same is another matter, we all want different things in our dogs and have different ideas about what to breed and what type to set.

Whether or not this litter is right for you, I would discuss that with the breeder.


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## Nikoboy (Aug 18, 2010)

She had planned to keep her to breed. Also she is not pushing me to take her like I said I can transfer my deposit to the litter she will have in two months. I just didn't understand why she would breed for her if she thought it was going to be a problem?


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