# Attacking me while on the leash



## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

A new and troubling behavior has come up with our puppy - I've read some threads similar to it here, but I don't think they were to this degree, and while I was convinced it was a phase, today has me pretty concerned. We're seeing our current trainer tomorrow, but we're still looking for a new one. I'm not confident she will really see the situation as it's random, and I wanted to get outside input.

Klaus is almost 6 months, and while he's energetic (and, as I've discussed here, sometimes nervous/dog reactive, though this has improved a ton), he's generally a really good dog, and loves people.

About a month ago, he got into the habit of sometimes jumping and grabbing our clothes while on the leash. I know this is a pretty normal behavior, we would put him in a sit/down, and continue as needed. It was always more prevalent when he had a lot of energy or had to go to the bathroom. It also happened more to my husband than me, possibly because I do most of the obedience training, and often when Klaus had to do something he didn't want (i.e. leave the park)

About a week ago, my husband dropped us off at work (usually Klaus and I walk) and we had to walk a couple blocks to get to the building. On the way, he went a bit nutty. Instead of grabbing my clothes, he was grabbing my arms, legs, anything he could get his mouth around. This went on for about 5/7 minutes (felt like an hour) and NOTHING I did would get him to calm down. He shredded the shopping bag I had in my hand and tore my shirt. He never growled, but he wasn't play biting me - he was biting me as hard as he could. It felt like he would break my arm. Finally, I realized I had one of his toys in my bag, stuffed it in his mouth, and after a few tries, he started shaking that instead, and I led him to the building with that in his mouth. Once inside my office he went back to perfectly normal, and was fine the rest of the day. I was left with some small bleeding bite marks and a lot of bruises.

Today something similar happened. He didn't get real exercise this morning because I had a doctor's appointment and it was raining. Again, my husband dropped us off. Klaus was scratching at my office door as soon as we came in, so I took him out in case he had to go to the bathroom. He walked about two blocks just fine, and then all the sudden went nutty again. This time it was even worse. He tore up my (new) sweater :frown2: , my arms are covered in bites, and I had nothing to redirect him to. 

Everything I tried didn't work, he wouldn't even sit, and we practice obedience multiple times daily. I had a guy start to pull Klaus off of me. Another guy told me I shouldn't have a dog like that in public. I stayed calm in both situations, but this time I started to panic towards the end, because I honestly thought he was going to badly hurt me, and I didn't know what to do. Finally I got him calm enough to drag back to the office. My arms and legs are covered in bites and scratches and I wound up in tears - unusual for me - mostly because I love this dog, I've worked hard on training him, and I just don't understand why this is happening.

The only thing I can think is that he love love loves my husband most in the whole world, and I feel like he's mad that my husband left when he dropped us off. I don't know if I can bring him to work anymore as he really can't behave like that on a crowded city street. We're currently looking for a good prong collar for practicing heeling, but I'm not sure that would help, as at one point I grabbed him by the scruff to get him off of me, and once held his muzzle closed, and both things seemed to make it worse. 

Now we're back in my office and he's fine again, but I'm honestly scared to take him out to the bathroom later. I'll bring a toy this time obviously. I've never been scared of a dog before, and don't intend to be scared of him. I'm not really, more just upset because I don't know what to do to get him to stop.

Obviously more exercise in the morning would probably help, but on some days, he just has to have most of his exercise after work hours. Last night we spent an hour in the park so it's not like he's been cooped up for days or something.

I'm hoping someone here can tell me that there's not something seriously wrong with my dog that training can't fix and possibly tell me some things I can do in this scenario that could stop him. If you'd like to add in that this is a phase that will end in approximately 2.5 weeks, that would be great too (a girl can dream, right?).

We love this dog, and we're trying to work hard to make sure he has everything he needs/wants and to train him well. We started with a trainer when he was 9 weeks old, so while I expected some normal bumps in the road, I didn't expect a scenario where he was actually hurting me - especially when he's my goofy, lazy pup at home. I've had a lot of dogs in my life, and I've never experienced this. I also don't want him to accidentally hurt someone else or for people to be afraid of him. Any advice would be appreciated.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

If it were my dog I would crate him at home while you are working. I would also put him back into doggy boot camp. Make him earn everything. He may just be a spoiled brat acting out. I would also keep him completely worn out while out of his crate. Obedience and physically exercise him to the point of exhaustion. Without knowing your dog personally I'm just guessing but he may just be bored and bratty. Although biting you the human should never be an option. Maybe pickup a muzzle.


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## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

cdwoodcox said:


> If it were my dog I would crate him at home while you are working. I would also put him back into doggy boot camp. Make him earn everything. He may just be a spoiled brat acting out. I would also keep him completely worn out while out of his crate. Obedience and physically exercise him to the point of exhaustion. Without knowing your dog personally I'm just guessing but he may just be bored and bratty. Although biting you the human should never be an option. Maybe pickup a muzzle.


I do also think that it's bratty behavior - throwing a tantrum because he doesn't get what he wants. We've been practicing NILIF, though not perfectly - especially my husband - so I think, you're right and we will get stricter with that. We try to give him as much stimulation each day as possible (off leash time each day, car rides, walks), but I guess we should increase it as much as we can. One thing I worry about is not overdoing it and hurting his joints at this age, but he usually lets me know when he needs a break.

I feel so bad leaving him at home all day when both my husband and I have the option to take him with us. It also adds the cost of a dog walker, which, while feasible, we've tried to avoid since we could. Is there a particular reason you think he should be in his crate all day?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

What constructive outlets does this dog have? Offleash exercise? How much exercise total per day? Playing tug?

Kong chew time? Chewing aggressively on other legal chews?


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## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> What constructive outlets does this dog have? Offleash exercise? How much exercise total per day? Playing tug?
> 
> Kong chew time? Chewing aggressively on other legal chews?


A normal weekday for him goes like this:

Morning - walk with me to work on leash (about a mile) or go on a walk with my husband and go with him to work. There are occasions where he doesn't get the walk in the morning, which makes him more difficult during the day, so that's going to have to stop and he'll need something every morning.

At work - he has a bully stick and marrow bone always available plus his toys, but for the most part he sleeps. We go outside for about 3-4 walks during the day, about 10 minutes each, with the lunchtime one about 15-20 minute. He plays in the grass on leash on those walks and just sniffs and explores as well as going to the bathroom.

Evening - we sometimes walk home from work but it's rare. We get home, play some tug, etc. in our apartment and practice some fetch all with obedience mixed in. Then he usually eats and then goes in his crate with a marrow bone while we eat dinner. After that we either go to the park for about 1-1.5 hours, most of that time he's off leash, we run around a lot, and he usually plays with 1-2 other dogs during that time, and we practice obedience. Occasionally instead of the park, we walk around the neighborhood all three of us, on leash, for 30-40 minutes, since it's something we've been practicing.

One evening a week we spend an hour with the trainer (full of play breaks).

Then we get home, he's usually exhausted and just goes to sleep.

On weekends, we spend the whole day with him, and we usually go each day either to the park, the beach, or hiking, always for a couple of hours. He loves swimming. Sometimes he comes with us to my mother-in-laws where he plays a lot in the yard and we take him on a walk with her dogs. Always there's obedience training scattered through the day, especially during play.

Now that it's finally cooler, we've been bumping up his outdoor exercise thankfully. I will admit that there were some scorching days when he didn't get outside as much as he should, but that was just how it had to be. He has about 30 toys, and whenever he is supervised he has a fresh marrow bone, bully stick, and/or pig ear to chew. Also he loves ice cubes. He never liked his kong for more than maybe 5-10 minutes, no matter what I stuffed it with. Instead I stuff and freeze the stripped marrow bones now.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

In a lot of threads you'll see there's two camps, one for its just normal puppy behavior and one that says no teeth on me. You're seeing the problem with the it'll pass, bite inhibition stuff. For every dog that's ok with, there's one like your's that it causes a serious problem somewhere around 5-6mos. 

It isn't a phase, its the culmination of what he's been allowed to do and now its doubtful you'll exercise/redirect/nilif him out of it. You don't want to keep adding stimulation and making all obedience about play. You're going to want to settle it all down for a while and work with someone who understands that.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

telavivgsd said:


> . Is there a particular reason you think he should be in his crate all day?


Because I think if he is crated all day and gets in a schedule it will be easier for you to stick to the nilif. I also think maybe he is spending too much time with you and your husband. At his age he doesn't need a walker. He will be fine until you pechuaband get home.


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## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> In a lot of threads you'll see there's two camps, one for its just normal puppy behavior and one that says no teeth on me. You're seeing the problem with the it'll pass, bite inhibition stuff. For every dog that's ok with, there's one like your's that it causes a serious problem somewhere around 5-6mos.
> 
> It isn't a phase, its the culmination of what he's been allowed to do and now its doubtful you'll exercise/redirect/nilif him out of it. You don't want to keep adding stimulation and making all obedience about play. You're going to want to settle it all down for a while and work with someone who understands that.


Thank you.
It's frustrating because I was very firm no, stuff a toy in his mouth immediately with all biting, while my husband played rougher with him. Unfortunately I seem to be the one reaping the most consequences of that. Now he tends to put my arm in his mouth, kind of bite down when I'm putting his collar and leash on, and I haven't been able to get him to stop, and that's really the main time he has purposely "bitten" me besides these incidents I'm posting about.

We're discussing the possibility of a board and train in December, especially because we will be abroad half the month anyhow. I have to talk to the guy about it more, see the place and some dogs, etc., but what concerns me a little is that it's "military style" training (says the guy), and I'm not sure how that would work out for a somewhat nervy dog. However, he doesn't seem to be phased by any kind of correction, so I don't know. We will be checking out some other places too before we make a decision.

Out of curiosity, for obedience, do you recommend it being mostly on leash or off leash, or does it matter? Right now we do it off leash, mostly at home or in the park.


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## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

cdwoodcox said:


> Because I think if he is crated all day and gets in a schedule it will be easier for you to stick to the nilif. I also think maybe he is spending too much time with you and your husband. At his age he doesn't need a walker. He will be fine until you pechuaband get home.


Really, even for a 9-6 job? I'm going to sound like a crate training failure, but I haven't been able to ever leave water in his crate because he plays in it and spills it, and to me that seems like a long time to be left without water.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

telavivgsd said:


> Thank you.
> It's frustrating because I was very firm no, stuff a toy in his mouth immediately with all biting, while my husband played rougher with him. Unfortunately I seem to be the one reaping the most consequences of that. Now he tends to put my arm in his mouth, kind of bite down when I'm putting his collar and leash on, and I haven't been able to get him to stop, and that's really the main time he has purposely "bitten" me besides these incidents I'm posting about.
> 
> We're discussing the possibility of a board and train in December, especially because we will be abroad half the month anyhow. I have to talk to the guy about it more, see the place and some dogs, etc., but what concerns me a little is that it's "military style" training (says the guy), and I'm not sure how that would work out for a somewhat nervy dog. However, he doesn't seem to be phased by any kind of correction, so I don't know. We will be checking out some other places too before we make a decision.
> ...


At this point I'd say nothing off leash. Period. I don't know what he means by military style, but I think it has to be very firm. No excuses for why he does something. He has to learn he will not do that. A 6mo old attacking you to where someone is trying to get him off you is serious. Another couple months and as hard as it may be to believe, it could be a lot worse.


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## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> At this point I'd say nothing off leash. Period. I don't know what he means by military style, but I think it has to be very firm. No excuses for why he does something. He has to learn he will not do that. A 6mo old attacking you to where someone is trying to get him off you is serious. Another couple months and as hard as it may be to believe, it could be a lot worse.


I agree with you. I'm a small person and my arms look like they went through a shredder. In a few months, he'll be around my weight and this cannot happen then. I guess what bothers me so much is that it's really out of character for him. Sure sometimes he will be a jerk and steal a roll of paper towels when he's bored to try to get us to chase him, and there's the putting my arm in his mouth when clipping the lead on, but that's generally the worst of his behavior. To just turn into a maniac is weird - I felt like I had someone else's dog.

But you're right, this has to be corrected immediately no matter what.
Thanks for the input, I'll start training on lead.

P.S. I'm guessing by military style, the guy means he trained dogs in the IDF and uses the same methods at the board and train. I think they use a lot of the Koehler method but I'm not positive. I'll ask him about it.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

_It's frustrating because I was very firm no, stuff a toy in his mouth immediately with all biting, while my husband played rougher with him._

I would say absolutely no more rough play with him. If you want to continue to take him to work with you, then I would consider a muzzle. Being in a crate while you're gone, if this is what you decide, won't hurt him, even if he runs out of water because he plays with it. If you close enough to walk to work is it possible to go home and walk him?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> putting my arm in his mouth when clipping the lead on


Things like that can escalate to what you have now. No teeth on me. Period. 



> I'm guessing by military style, the guy means he trained dogs in the IDF and uses the same methods at the board and train. I think they use a lot of the Koehler method but I'm not positive. I'll ask him about it.


What's going to matter is if he's good at it. I don't mean to sound harsh about it, and everyone who follows the bite inhibition stuff is probably saying "What an ***" But I think you're right at the point where you can have things either worked out or get as bad as it possibly could. 9mos - 1yr, you may be too afraid to handle him.


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## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> Things like that can escalate to what you have now. No teeth on me. Period.
> 
> 
> What's going to matter is if he's good at it. I don't mean to sound harsh about it, and everyone who follows the bite inhibition stuff is probably saying "What an ***" But I think you're right at the point where you can have things either worked out or get as bad as it possibly could. 9mos - 1yr, you may be too afraid to handle him.


Like I said, I agree with you. That's why we're in the process of finding a new trainer as it is.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

See, the thing is the NILIF or crating doesn't address the actual issue, which is biting you. You need to address THAT directly, and make it clear that is not acceptable. Not ever, no teeth on you. Even if my dog misses a tug, I let him or her know, that is not OK. Dogs can learn to target, and they can certainly learn that biting you is not allowed. 

It's not a phase that will pass. This is not uncommon, either, GSDs. But it will get worse if not addressed and punished in a clear way the dog understands. I don't think he needs more crate time or NILIF. You need to find a trainer or figure out how to stop this behavior as soon as or better still before it starts. You can't do this any sooner than now, better if you'd been clear from puppyhood but we all make mistakes raising a pup, and do better next time. 

It sounds like he has a good life for a city dog. I would keep doing what you are doing as far as exercise.


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## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

Muskeg said:


> See, the thing is the NILIF or crating doesn't address the actual issue, which is biting you. You need to address THAT directly, and make it clear that is not acceptable. Not ever, no teeth on you. Even if my dog misses a tug, I let him or her know, that is not OK. Dogs can learn to target, and they can certainly learn that biting you is not allowed.
> 
> It's not a phase that will pass. This is not uncommon, either, GSDs. But it will get worse if not addressed and punished in a clear way the dog understands. I don't think he needs more crate time or NILIF. You need to find a trainer or figure out how to stop this behavior as soon as or better still before it starts. You can't do this any sooner than now, better if you'd been clear from puppyhood but we all make mistakes raising a pup, and do better next time.
> 
> It sounds like he has a good life for a city dog. I would keep doing what you are doing as far as exercise.


Thanks Muskeg. One day I hope to move to the country with him, but honestly he loves the AC more than anything, so he might already be too much of a city dog to be helped.

You're right, addressing this needs to be done immediately. We need to stop looking for a trainer who can address this and actually find one. We've been looking for weeks. That's interesting what you said about missing a tug - I'll keep that in mind from now on. I am glad you said it's not uncommon, that we haven't created a rare psycho dog or something, but regardless, it needs to stop. 

I think one big problem is that I've gotten Klaus to obey me through positive/reward based training only, and because I practice obedience with him a lot, with rewards, he does listen to me when I give commands more than anyone. But I don't think he actually respects me, if that makes sense. I do think he respects my husband, possibly just from sheer size and attitude.

Hopefully we can really get this nipped (pun intended) in the next month with a trainer before it gets any worse and he gets any bigger.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> But I don't think he actually respects me, if that makes sense.


Perfect sense. Absolutely 100% correct and its the direction you want your training to go. Knowing that already will make it easier for you to see what's working.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

It might also be useful to think about the big picture, and that is you want to your dog to be calm and under control in all situations. It's something I think we tend to neglect thinking about. The biting is an expression of over-arousal, the opposite of calmness. While you certainly need to address this directly, think about the whole thing in a bigger sense of teaching the dog to be calm, a dog you can take anywhere. That's more important than obedience training. The only command I really would need to be fool proof, outside of competition, is a recall.


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## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

Muskeg said:


> It might also be useful to think about the big picture, and that is you want to your dog to be calm and under control in all situations. It's something I think we tend to neglect thinking about. The biting is an expression of over-arousal, the opposite of calmness. While you certainly need to address this directly, think about the whole thing in a bigger sense of teaching the dog to be calm, a dog you can take anywhere. That's more important than obedience training. The only command I really would need to be fool proof, outside of competition, is a recall.


Thank you, that is really helpful. You're right - the end goal is a calm dog. All of our problems thus far stem from him not being calm.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Muskeg said:


> It might also be useful to think about the big picture, and that is you want to your dog to be calm and under control in all situations. It's something I think we tend to neglect thinking about. The biting is an expression of over-arousal, the opposite of calmness. While you certainly need to address this directly, think about the whole thing in a bigger sense of teaching the dog to be calm, a dog you can take anywhere. That's more important than obedience training. The only command I really would need to be fool proof, outside of competition, is a recall.


This! 

I was just telling some friends about my showline that just presented a flawless, well behaved, off leash performance at the park yesterday. The only command used was the recall.


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## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> This!
> 
> I was just telling some friends about my showline that just presented a flawless, well behaved, off leash performance at the park yesterday. The only command used was the recall.


We really need to work on recall. So far we've practiced with one holding him the other running and he comes and gets a treat. This is how our trainer taught us. The problem is, if there's something better than the treat we're calling him away from, or if we don't have a treat.

I'm hoping to get a long line this weekend and start practicing with it that way.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> At this point I'd say nothing off leash. Period. I don't know what he means by military style, but I think it has to be very firm. No excuses for why he does something. He has to learn he will not do that. A 6mo old attacking you to where someone is trying to get him off you is serious. Another couple months and as hard as it may be to believe, it could be a lot worse.


This thread has me curious because I will be getting a knpv pup and the lines are known for sometimes being handler aggressive. What methods do handlers use to keep the dog in check? Most of what I saw involved a prong/slip collar and applying pressure to the dog to get it to relax. Wondering what other methods can be used.


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## WembleyDogsUK (Jul 13, 2016)

> he was biting me as hard as he could. It felt like he would break my arm. Finally, I realized I had one of his toys in my bag


That's why he bit you. Because of *impatience (could be a reason for aggression)*, because you didn't understand straightaway what he wants, so, he tried to explain to you harder and bite harder. Patience in many different environments and with many different things (not only food and tops) is an issue for you to train,


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

WembleyDogsUK said:


> That's why he bit you. Because of *impatience (could be a reason for aggression)*, because you didn't understand straightaway what he wants, so, he tried to explain to you harder and bite harder. Patience in many different environments and with many different things (not only food and tops) is an issue for you to train,


Who care's what he wants. He's biting her with serious intent. You go ahead and be patient with it and then in 6mos when she can't even walk in the room with him you can throw some more babble her way.


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## WembleyDogsUK (Jul 13, 2016)

> Who care's what he wants.


I had to read this dog's behaviour, so I did. Some children whose mom didn't buy the toy they liked in the shop behave absolutely in the same manner. It is not the handler who has to be patient, but the dog. Training your dog to be patient removes many troubles.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

WembleyDogsUK said:


> I had to read this dog's behaviour, so I did. Some children whose mom didn't buy the toy they liked in the shop behave absolutely in the same manner. It is not the handler who has to be patient, but the dog. Training your dog to be patient removes many troubles.


He's biting her because he means to bite her. This is beyond misguided frustration on his part. When's the last time a stranger had to pull your kid off you at Toy's r Us?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

telavivgsd said:


> We really need to work on recall. So far we've practiced with one holding him the other running and he comes and gets a treat. This is how our trainer taught us. The problem is, if there's something better than the treat we're calling him away from, or if we don't have a treat.
> 
> I'm hoping to get a long line this weekend and start practicing with it that way.


Just out of curiosity, when he is off leash, and you call him, walk or run in the other direction. Don't stop and don't turn back around. Keep going, see what he does. Or don't call him and turn and walk away and keep going. See what happens.

Now I am not saying don't look back to keep an eye on him and what he is doing, I am saying try not to let him see you do it, keep moving. Let him watch you move away. I would be real interested in what he does when you do this.


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## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Just out of curiosity, when he is off leash, and you call him, walk or run in the other direction. Don't stop and don't turn back around. Keep going, see what he does. Or don't call him and turn and walk away and keep going. See what happens.
> 
> 
> 
> Now I am not saying don't look back to keep an eye on him and what he is doing, I am saying try not to let him see you do it, keep moving. Let him watch you move away. I would be real interested in what he does when you do this.




We do this a lot actually in the park. He will always come if one of us is running away. If he catches up with me, he likes to do this fun body slam into my legs, I guess to try and stop me. We don't even have to call him, if we are running away, he always comes, even if he's playing with another dog, digging, sniffing for something. In my husband's case, if he even walks more that 10-20 feet away and Klaus realizes it, he'll run to get to him right away.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## WembleyDogsUK (Jul 13, 2016)

> in the other direction


And have a toy in your right hand, so he wouldn't bite your legs! I believe, yes, if his* instinct of following the leader *wasn't developed in him from the very start - you cannot demand a reliable recall. Direct him onto yourself entirely, I would recommend - no other dogs or puppies, no socialization with people before you achieve this: your puppy should start watching you. For that reason you should learn body language, so, you wouldn't confuse your lad with any wrong movements. That is how you speak to your dog - through your body.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

telavivgsd said:


> We do this a lot actually in the park. He will always come if one of us is running away. If he catches up with me, he likes to do this fun body slam into my legs, I guess to try and stop me. We don't even have to call him, if we are running away, he always comes, even if he's playing with another dog, digging, sniffing for something. In my husband's case, if he even walks more that 10-20 feet away and Klaus realizes it, he'll run to get to him right away.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So why not use the action of moving away to teach the recall, which he responds to, vs calling him to a treat which he ignores?


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

So, for the most part I am in the "redirect" camp for puppies. 

In this situation and with the age and severity of the behavior, I am in "no teeth on me camp" and I would be super strong about my displeasure. Super strong. This is NOT acceptable. AT ALL. 

You puppy is practicing a behavior that is very dangerous and in 1 months time may lead to a serious injury. 

Find a trainer. One that can teach you how to tell this puppy that his behavior is unacceptable.


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## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> So why not use the action of moving away to teach the recall, which he responds to, vs calling him to a treat which he ignores?




I don't think I really explained it well - that is how we've been teaching it, just when he catches up when we're running away, he gets the treat, then back to the other person, and repeat. 

As long as we're someplace we can kind of run away, this works perfectly. The issue arises more if I'm in my office or house, and I call him over to me, if he's doing something more "fun" (e.g. Stealing a roll of paper towels), or he's lazy and laying down or something, I stand no chance. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

telavivgsd said:


> We really need to work on recall. So far we've practiced with one holding him the other running and he comes and gets a treat. This is how our trainer taught us. The problem is, if there's something better than the treat we're calling him away from, or if we don't have a treat.
> 
> I'm hoping to get a long line this weekend and start practicing with it that way.


Outside??



telavivgsd said:


> I don't think I really explained it well - that is how we've been teaching it, just when he catches up when we're running away, he gets the treat, then back to the other person, and repeat.
> 
> As long as we're someplace we can kind of run away, this works perfectly. The issue arises more if I'm in my office or house, and I call him over to me, if he's doing something more "fun" (e.g. Stealing a roll of paper towels), or he's lazy and laying down or something, I stand no chance.
> 
> ...


What does he do when you leave the room? Have you tried teaching recall inside on lead?


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## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Outside??
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I think we would start with the long line inside our apartment, as outside we're able to use the running. We actually live in a (fairly large) studio apartment, so there's really no such thing as leaving the room. At work he's learned that he can't whine or scratch the door when I leave the room like he did initially (though he still does that at my husband's work), and he knows not to follow us into the bathroom 90% of the time. 


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## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

Deb said:


> _It's frustrating because I was very firm no, stuff a toy in his mouth immediately with all biting, while my husband played rougher with him._
> 
> I would say absolutely no more rough play with him. If you want to continue to take him to work with you, then I would consider a muzzle. Being in a crate while you're gone, if this is what you decide, won't hurt him, even if he runs out of water because he plays with it. If you close enough to walk to work is it possible to go home and walk him?


I don't know how rough your husband plays with him. But I know some owners like to wrestle with their dogs and it can get very mouthy. It will be doubly hard for you if your husband is OK with rough play and you are not. It's like one is saying," teeth on me is ok" and the other isn't.


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## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

Deb said:


> _It's frustrating because I was very firm no, stuff a toy in his mouth immediately with all biting, while my husband played rougher with him._
> 
> I would say absolutely no more rough play with him. If you want to continue to take him to work with you, then I would consider a muzzle. Being in a crate while you're gone, if this is what you decide, won't hurt him, even if he runs out of water because he plays with it. If you close enough to walk to work is it possible to go home and walk him?




I'm sorry, I just saw this. It's not really close enough, because it's about a 25/30 minute walk, and the way back is uphill. My lunches are usually working lunches (sadly), so I can't really do it. Dog walkers are super common here (Tel Aviv has a dog for every 14 people - fun fact), so that's doable. I had found a bowl that hooks onto the crate too, so it would be too high for him to really play with. That could be an option. 


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## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

gsdluvr said:


> I don't know how rough your husband plays with him. But I know some owners like to wrestle with their dogs and it can get very mouthy. It will be doubly hard for you if your husband is OK with rough play and you are not. It's like one is saying," teeth on me is ok" and the other isn't.




I agree. We've talked about it, and teeth on us is no longer going to be allowed under any circumstances. He's going to tone down the play level too. 


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Just curious how you reacted when he was jumping and biting you? Did you scream, flail, yell no no no? I'm curious because I'm wondering if the dog came away thinking, hey, that was super fun and she seemed to enjoy it? 

If so, it's going to happen again.

You need to have a good plan in place for when it does happen again. 

He's not a bad dog, but he is going to continue to do what he finds amusing, because he sees no reason not to. I am a bit concerned for a small woman walking a six month old dog who will do this. It's dangerous, and it could result in more issues if someone sees it happening and thinks the dog is attacking you. 

If you have a plan in place, it will help you stop this before it goes any further.


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## deb1957 (Nov 2, 2016)

Exactly Steve Strom, had a 2 yr old put down for handler aggression, goin for throat = kill


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Telavivgsd,
I'm not for redirecting with this dog anymore. The dog bit the OP, tore the OP's clothing then ripped the shopping bag and got the toy. BINGO, the dog has now learned to self reward for biting, tearing clothing and taking what he wants. Getting the toy was a big win for the dog and he learned a lesson that is becoming very valuable to him. 

You will need to get a handle on this misbehavior and aggression right away. My advice would be to stop this now before it gets worse. Steve is 100% correct. At 9 months or a year when the dog weighs 75 lbs and is even stronger and more out of control this will be much harder to fix. 

First off, with this dog, and I mean this dog, if he puts his teeth on you he gets corrected. He gets corrected really hard, on a scale of 4-5 times harder than you have ever corrected him. He does not get a toy for misbehaving and being aggressive, period. 

Next, the dog has to earn the right to play with "*YOUR toys.*" These are not his toys, they are yours that you let him use when his behavior is correct. 

He does need to be taught impulse control and focus and that should be a big part of your obedience right now. I would work on him sitting for his toy, heeling for the toy. Any jumping, breaking, aggression, etc means a correction and withholding the toy until he is correct, contained and has earned it. 

If you have read the NILF site, then you understand that all rewards must be earned. With this dog, inappropriate aggression and behavior must be corrected and dealt with firmly, fairly and consistently. No grey areas, everything must be black and white. No more coddling, ignoring or redirecting, be a benevolent dictator. Firm, fair and consistent. Firm meaning very firm and fair meaning high levels of reward (praise and toy) when you received the desired behavior. 

Best of luck


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## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

Muskeg said:


> Just curious how you reacted when he was jumping and biting you? Did you scream, flail, yell no no no? I'm curious because I'm wondering if the dog came away thinking, hey, that was super fun and she seemed to enjoy it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I would like to think I handled it fairly calmly both times, though I'm sure it could've been far better. I just kept saying Klaus, no, lowly and firmly each time I pushed him off me, pulled him off me, whatever. Obviously pushing him off me doesn't work, and I think he thinks that's a game. 

I would also kind of say basically "Klaus, what's going on" in Hebrew, in a calm voice, more to indicate to people around me that I wasn't upset/he wasn't attacking me, and I was just kind of asking the dog like "what the h***?" I never raised my voice, or screamed, though at the end I can't guarantee that my voice wasn't a little more high pitched as my frustration increased.

One big issue was that he was on a harness, as had been recommended by our trainer. That's not going to happen anymore. He's also never coming to work with me again without a ton of exercise before. 



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## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

Slamdunc said:


> Telavivgsd,
> 
> I'm not for redirecting with this dog anymore. The dog bit the OP, tore the OP's clothing then ripped the shopping bag and got the toy. BINGO, the dog has now learned to self reward for biting, tearing clothing and taking what he wants. Getting the toy was a big win for the dog and he learned a lesson that is becoming very valuable to him.
> 
> ...




I completely agree. We've talked to a couple new trainers that work with corrections, not just positive reinforcement, and I intend to have a new one by next week. We need to revamp our whole training method it seems like, but I would like some guidance in the meantime.

In the meantime, we're going to start being much more firm and increase NILIF. I'm also going to stop listening to all the force free people telling me I shouldn't, because at this point I think it's to the detriment of my dog. I truly wish that kind of training could have worked, but it doesn't seem to with this particular dog. Thanks a lot for all of the advice and help (that's to everyone - I really appreciate it!)


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

telavivgsd said:


> I completely agree. We've talked to a couple new trainers that work with corrections, not just positive reinforcement, and I intend to have a new one by next week. We need to revamp our whole training method it seems like, but I would like some guidance in the meantime.
> 
> In the meantime, we're going to start being much more firm and increase NILIF. I'm also going to stop listening to all the force free people telling me I shouldn't, because at this point I think it's to the detriment of my dog. I truly wish that kind of training could have worked, but it doesn't seem to with this particular dog. Thanks a lot for all of the advice and help (that's to everyone - I really appreciate it!)
> 
> ...


https://www.amazon.com/Herm-Sprenge...4&sr=sr-1&keywords=herm+sprenger+prong+collar

Leerburg Dog Training | How to Fit a Prong Collar

You're welcome.


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## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

Julian G said:


> https://www.amazon.com/Herm-Sprenge...4&sr=sr-1&keywords=herm+sprenger+prong+collar
> 
> Leerburg Dog Training | How to Fit a Prong Collar
> 
> You're welcome.




We just bought one yesterday 

Going to start practicing with it today inside for a day or two before using it outside.



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## MissChloe (Oct 31, 2016)

telavivgsd said:


> I completely agree. We've talked to a couple new trainers that work with corrections, not just positive reinforcement, and I intend to have a new one by next week. We need to revamp our whole training method it seems like, but I would like some guidance in the meantime.
> 
> In the meantime, we're going to start being much more firm and increase NILIF. I'm also going to stop listening to all the force free people telling me I shouldn't, because at this point I think it's to the detriment of my dog. I truly wish that kind of training could have worked, but it doesn't seem to with this particular dog. Thanks a lot for all of the advice and help (that's to everyone - I really appreciate it!)


I used to do positive reinforcement only. Didn't work so well with my current dog (an adult lab) who body slammed me and was uber-mouthy when I first brought him home. It was like having a 75-pound labrashark puppy. I've since learned about and experienced first-hand how effective a properly timed and delivered correction can be, especially for a big strong dog like him. A good trainer definitely makes all the difference in the world. Good luck with the new one you pick.


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## Pan_GSD (Oct 2, 2016)

this kind of brings me back to my early experiences with my own dog.

first time dog owner, and my dog started biting me really bad, drawing blood on my arms and calves, when he was around 3months of age.

since this was my first dog ever, i approached "dog training" from the politically correct camp, where you're not supposed to lay a finger on your dog, and only use positive reinforcement. and i was adamant about it, when ALL of my coworkers told me that you have to be firm and rough with a GSD. (they were all GSD, doberman, owners)

my positive reinforcement techniques did not work, none of the youtube videos that i watched did not help

until one day, when i was getting ready to head out for work, my dog bit me hard and my arm started bleeding. i got really impatient and furious and grabbed a collar that was set on my desk, and used it to whip my dog in the butt

ever since then, my dog feared the collar, but only in the context when i held it in my hand for the purpose of discipline. he was not phased at all when i attempted to use the same collar for walks outside



this biting problem lasted a little over 3 weeks, and now my dog is several days short of 6 months old, and weighs 59lbs.

he still playbites, but only because i "enjoy" the play session while i jump around/rough play with him.

as soon as i clap, or say no while standing up, he will immediately stop




i thought i ended up with an "aggressive" puppy and i was researching boarding schools at the time but have now realized it was mostly "normal" behavior

and my dog has become just the perfect companion, and i feel very lucky



i read this whole thread very quickly but i would immediately drop the "positive only" mindset and be ready to respond in equal or greater intensity than what your dog is displaying at the time.

i never had to use any prong collars or e collars, only whipped him several times using his collar, and some firm grip over his neck


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## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

Thanks MissChloe - I'm determined to fix this over the next months!

Pan - I wish we had come to this conclusion at 3 months instead of 6 months, but we'll just have to deal with it now. I'm glad to hear that it can be fixed!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Pan_GSD said:


> this kind of brings me back to my early experiences with my own dog.
> 
> first time dog owner, and my dog started biting me really bad, drawing blood on my arms and calves, when he was around 3months of age.
> 
> ...


Careful Pan. Punishment has to be equal to the behavior and consistent. You're encouraging something and then punishing it like its a major offence.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

telavivgsd said:


> We just bought one yesterday
> 
> Going to start practicing with it today inside for a day or two before using it outside.
> 
> ...


I just go straight outside with them, they catch on right away.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Be careful correcting with the prong. Be aware that on many dogs like this, a prong revs them up more. If you are a smaller person, and don't know what you are doing, you may make a mistake and do the opposite of correction. I don't use a prong for certain things, like car chasing for example, because I could not make a strong enough, impersonal, correction. Instead I went with e-collar, for that. A stronger (better) trainer might have been able to use the prong, but I found the prong amped up handler-redirection in a very excited, not able-to-cap-yet dog, while e-collar did not.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I've seen IPO folks crank the prong as hard as they possibly could during "out" training, and the dog would yelp but continue holding on. They were using the prong as correction, not drive building. There's a difference, but it's not easy for a new trainer to understand necessarily. I am not anti prong, at all, but it's not necessarily the best tool for every behavior.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

telavivgsd said:


> We just bought one yesterday
> 
> Going to start practicing with it today inside for a day or two before using it outside.
> 
> ...


May have been said, but I'll say it again, make sure to fit it properly and use correctly. Hopefully your new trainer can provide guidance.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It sounds like the exercise for this dog isn't enough. Your typical walk for a mile isn't burning up his energy at all. Can you get out in the morning before you get ready for work and throw the ball so that he is full out running and getting some of it out of his system?

Yep, keep working with training. But, I think in the evening, you need to stimulate him more mentally, train for something that uses his instincts and challenges his brains, while not neglecting obedience. Train every day, 20-40 minutes. Mix it up, don't spend too much time on any one thing, introduce new stuff. Agility maybe. 

I am afraid that how you are managing the behavior that is causing the issue is just ramping him up. A live trainer that can see this in person might be able to give you some pointers. Are you using a prong collar on him? Toys are rewards. We sometimes fall into the trap of rewarding negative behavior. Landsharks teethe. We here redirect to a toy. And yes, you can do this without rewarding the inappropriate chewing and biting. But sometimes it would be better to correct first, Eh, No. My fingers. Whatever. And then when the behavior is stopped, provide something else, "This is Yours." with the emphasis on "Yours." Corrections, physical corrections can also ramp a dog up. We don't want to abuse our puppy, but, whimpy corrections tend to either be perceived as playing, or nagging. If you are going to correct a dog physically, you have to mean it. And you have to give him a little time after the correction before you try to make it all better again. They have to understand that they CANNOT do that. 

I don't know if your dog is acting like a spoiled brat, or if the dog is so full of energy that he cannot contain himself, if he has something screwy going on, like small seizures / rage syndrome (unlikely). A good trainer has to be able to hear what you are saying for behavior that he does not witness, and evaluate the dog, and give you a plan for managing, training, rehabilitating, and preventing you from falling down a similar path in the future with him -- given this is a handling issue, which I think is the most likely, not seeing the dog in action.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Take him to IDF trainer and let him work with you and your husband so you both are on same page in approach. At his age he needs to have CLEAR understanding about when and where he can use his teeth to bite. At six months prolonged treat based or reward based only training is not going to get it because there is a respect factor,( at least with you) that has to be instituted.


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## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

Muskeg said:


> I've seen IPO folks crank the prong as hard as they possibly could during "out" training, and the dog would yelp but continue holding on. They were using the prong as correction, not drive building. There's a difference, but it's not easy for a new trainer to understand necessarily. I am not anti prong, at all, but it's not necessarily the best tool for every behavior.



Thank you - Steve also talked to me about this somewhat, and I think I understand what you guys mean, and will definitely keep it mind.

We plan to use the prong just for practicing proper heeling. I was looking today at a nylon choke collar for corrections after talking to a couple people, and I think I will go with it, but I think I will wait til we start with a new trainer to see what he or she recommends. Our prong didn't arrive yet unfortunately, hopefully it will soon. 


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## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

Nigel said:


> May have been said, but I'll say it again, make sure to fit it properly and use correctly. Hopefully your new trainer can provide guidance.




Absolutely will make sure of this! Thank you 


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Muskeg said:


> I've seen IPO folks crank the prong as hard as they possibly could during "out" training, and the dog would yelp but continue holding on. They were using the prong as correction, not drive building. There's a difference, but it's not easy for a new trainer to understand necessarily. I am not anti prong, at all, but it's not necessarily the best tool for every behavior.


The prong has a lot of uses and drive building is one, extinguishing drive is another. In other words the prong can be used to escalate a behavior or stop a behavior. It depends on how it is used and who is using it. An experienced handler can do both, an inexperienced handler may think they are correcting the dog when in fact they are actually augmenting the behavior and making it worse. 

As far as IPO goes and outing a dog with a prong collar correction, it helps to teach a foundation first and ensure the dog knows what "out" means. A hard correction from a prong should cause a dog to vocalize, but if done correctly the dog should "out." Many dogs already have outing issues before the prong is put on and the dog is taught to out. Or, the dog may not understand what "out" means and is now being forced to out and resisting. The best technique to out a dog when using a prong is correcting into the bite. Often done by an experienced third party while the dog is back tied. 

This doesn't work easily with every dog. I'm training a new patrol dog and handler team now, the dog understands what out means, but refuses to out a bite on a suit. I tried the prong collar to out him and it wasn't working, so I will try something else. I have a few other techniques to use that will work better with this dog.


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## Misha111 (Oct 31, 2016)

When my late pup was 6 months old, I was out in the garden and she completely mugged me, the same way you describe. I was shocked and frightened and she wasn't my first GSD!! That night when I fed her she got her food bowl stuck under the radiator which I went to kick it out because I thought she might burn her ears. She growled and froze. At that point I stepped back and thought you win this battle but not the war!! After that everything was non negotiable. I hand fed her. I would put down an empty food bowl and wait for her to look at me before I put anything in it. I would feed some of her daily allowance in a kong. It's amazing how interested they become in Kongs when it contains their daily food allowance. I stopped all rough and tumble games (and got my OH on board) and whilst I was in control of the her basic food requirements, I taught a really strong leave command. And if she ever laid her teeth on me, I would get up and leave. Basically my attitude was you live in my home, I feed you.
I don't know whether this would work on your pup, but I just wanted to let you know, that my beautiful late girl, grew up to be the most gentle of Shepherds. So whatever you decide to do do, don't give up hope just yet.


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## Pan_GSD (Oct 2, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> Careful Pan. Punishment has to be equal to the behavior and consistent. You're encouraging something and then punishing it like its a major offence.


yea i realize that now that you mention it.

from my perspective, i'm just letting him know that "I" dictate when it's playtime, and when it ends

sometimes he's so into it that he doesn't obey when i say "ok, playtime is over", so that's when i have to stand up and point a finger at him or clap

i'm ok with the level of playbiting that he displays at this moment in time because it's fun for both of us, it's entertaining, and i can handle it

but who knows, maybe this complacency and inexperience on my part might come back to bite me in the rear in the future



but yea i have a great dog

considering the fact that i'm a first time dog owner, i think we've achieved a lot

he may not be the smartest dog, but that's not even remotely what i care about

i just wanted a four legged companion and just love him


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

_i'm ok with the level of playbiting that he displays at this moment in time because it's fun for both of us, it's entertaining, and i can handle it but who knows, maybe this complacency and inexperience on my part might come back to bite me in the rear in the future._

The strength in his jaws in play biting now is nothing to what it will be. If you allow it now it will come back at you. In my house the rule is no teeth on at all, ever! Also, if he does it with you he will not understand why he can't with others and they'll be calling 'dog bite' as well as possibly calling the authorities, especially if they pull away which can cause a deep enough scratch to bleed. It might be cute and fun now, Pan, but it could grow into something very difficult to stop later.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Televivgsd, just curious, did you allow yours to put teeth on when smaller when you were rough housing with him?


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

Ok, I am curious. Did Klaus start acting up at around the same place in your two walks? Is there anything at that place that you think might have acted like a trigger? This is, in no way, intended to make excuses, behavior like this cannot be allowed to continue. It just makes me wonder why he starts out OK, then all the sudden decides to go crazy.


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## Pan_GSD (Oct 2, 2016)

Deb said:


> The strength in his jaws in play biting now is nothing to what it will be. If you allow it now it will come back at you. In my house the rule is no teeth on at all, ever!


will definitely keep it in mind


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Pan_GSD said:


> will definitely keep it in mind


Think about this too Pan. When you're inconsistent like that, especially to extremes like play then whipping, it can carry over to other things. You can seem unpredictable to him. That'll come back to haunt you.


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

I just quickly read through the posts here and may have missed it. 

On many past threads the advice is to take the dog to the vet ASAP to check for problems such as thyroid, make sure ears and throat are fine (such as nothing jammed inside that doesn't belong). The vet would know of anything else to look at with the dog.

If you got your pup from a breeder contact them. They should be able and willing to tell you if any of their other pups or adults acted in such a manner. It also sounds like the breeder should have directed you to a different pup, a different breeding or possibly a different puppy source based on your previous dog experience. 

Now you have a dog that you love. A regular dog trainer who teaches basic commands may not be enough for this concern. You may have to seek a certified behaviorist / trainer or at least a trainer with experience working with this type of problem in a young dog. 

The best of luck to you in however you decide to go.


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## Pan_GSD (Oct 2, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> Think about this too Pan. When you're inconsistent like that, especially to extremes like play then whipping, it can carry over to other things. You can seem unpredictable to him. That'll come back to haunt you.


no that was in the past, when he was drawing blood at the age of 3months

i haven't used any form of physical punishment outside of that stage


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## Jayfeather (Dec 28, 2014)

I had a very similar problem with my dog when he was a puppy, up until about 6 months (he started at around 3.5 months in a playful way with just jumping up, but it slowly escalated until he was biting our arms). We would be walking along just fine when suddenly he'd turn and jump up on us and bite us, sometimes even growling. However, I will mention that he never bit us very hard, just enough to give us some bruises and one or two scratches here and there. As I was the one to train him, he was always much worse for my parents. I had tried everything I could think of. Ignoring him, redirecting, asking for a sit, and leash corrections all did not work. One day, I simply became so fed up with the behaviour that I simply turned towards him and walked into him like he wasn't there, meanwhile holding the leash short so that he couldn't simply attack me from another side. He was completely caught off guard by this reaction and stopped immediately. He tried again one other time that same day, and I responded in the same way. After that, he never attempted his attacks on me again. He continued for a while with my parents because they were very inconsistent in how they handled the situation, but eventually he stopped altogether, and he is now an amazing, well behaved dog.


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## Pan_GSD (Oct 2, 2016)

Jayfeather said:


> I had a very similar problem with my dog when he was a puppy, up until about 6 months (he started at around 3.5 months in a playful way with just jumping up, but it slowly escalated until he was biting our arms). We would be walking along just fine when suddenly he'd turn and jump up on us and bite us, sometimes even growling. However, I will mention that he never bit us very hard, just enough to give us some bruises and one or two scratches here and there. As I was the one to train him, he was always much worse for my parents. I had tried everything I could think of. Ignoring him, redirecting, asking for a sit, and leash corrections all did not work. One day, I simply became so fed up with the behaviour that I simply turned towards him and walked into him like he wasn't there, meanwhile holding the leash short so that he couldn't simply attack me from another side. He was completely caught off guard by this reaction and stopped immediately. He tried again one other time that same day, and I responded in the same way. After that, he never attempted his attacks on me again. He continued for a while with my parents because they were very inconsistent in how they handled the situation, but eventually he stopped altogether, and he is now an amazing, well behaved dog.


your story sounds pretty much similar to mine.

i have tried a lot of methods suggested online, one of the most ridiculous methods being that you "YELP" and walk away

lol all it did was make my little dog chase after me as i walked away, back turned, and bit me in my calves

he didn't stop until i did something that he did not expect me to do and "shocked" him


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Aww well .... dumbing down what Jim stated to it's simplest context ... a "Prong Collar can put drive into a dog or take Drive out of a dog" depends on how it's used.  

In this thread ... the "OP" has mentioned two issues no recall and up leash dog ...pick your battle! A dog can have crappy recall, lack of exercise and still not bite the crap out of it's owner! A dog can have not enough "exercise" and still not "bite the crap out of it's owner!"
The dog is making a choice to pursue this course of action and needs to be taught to "make better choices!"

Keep a line on the dog and worry about "Recall" later ... problem solved! If a dog is biting the crap out of me??? That is "problem one!" Nothing else matters "this behavior" will not happen Dog ... period end of story! 

A firm tone of voice ... subject is to interpretation?? A correction four to five times harder with whatever tool?? Subjection to interpenetration?? A tool that is not subject to "interpretation is a "Pet Convincer." :

Pet Convincer.com

The next time it happens, nail the dog between the ears with a "PC" add a sideways and correction and continue the walk like "nothing happened!" The "PC" is not subject to interpretation.


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## MissChloe (Oct 31, 2016)

This thread has truly convinced me if I decide to get a GSD, I'd personally want to spend time walking and attending training classes with rescue GSDs first. I _know_ GSDs are not the same as labs but it's still been eye opening to read what they can be like as puppies.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MissChloe said:


> This thread has truly convinced me if I decide to get a GSD, I'd personally want to spend time walking and attending training classes with rescue GSDs first. I _know_ GSDs are not the same as labs but it's still been eye opening to read what they can be like as puppies.


 LOL to late ... now you know! One of my favorite phrases is "not a people friendly goofy lab." Now you know ..." 

Most likely a SL GSD is most suitable for most folks??? I don't know as I don't have one. But a "Wl GSD" in pet people hands can easily separate ... those who can from those who can't! Frankly I don't recommend a WL GSD to uh "anyone" I know. Better for the Breed, others are of course free to do as they see fit.


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## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

Deb said:


> Televivgsd, just curious, did you allow yours to put teeth on when smaller when you were rough housing with him?



I didn't, I can't say for sure for my husband, but I don't think he really did either, even though they played rougher. I mean there was all the usual puppy biting, not any more than any other puppy I've had or interacted with. We just redirected to a toy, and if he got really wound up, did short "chill out" periods in his crate.



newlie said:


> Ok, I am curious. Did Klaus start acting up at around the same place in your two walks? Is there anything at that place that you think might have acted like a trigger? This is, in no way, intended to make excuses, behavior like this cannot be allowed to continue. It just makes me wonder why he starts out OK, then all the sudden decides to go crazy.



No, it was two different places. I've gone over this in my head 100 times trying to figure out what was similar in the two circumstances. All I could come up with is that those mornings he was energetic and my husband dropped us off and left.



ILGHAUS said:


> I just quickly read through the posts here and may have missed it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Our breeder is not someone who is going to help us. We thought we did our research when getting this puppy. I always had rescues before, so it was my first time really trying to find a breeder, and it's a lot harder to do here than in the US. There are less really established breeders, more like people who decide to breed their dog, or like a huge breeding operation with a ton of dogs, and I didn't really like that. 

Klaus' "breeder" was a young guy who really loves his female, who decided to breed her to a male who had just come here from Europe. Both of his parents were health tested, we contacted the Israeli Kennel Club who told us they had seen the puppies and everything was in order. I think we were just kind of super impressed by his dad as we're inexperienced. Hindsight is 20/20, and we probably would have gone another route if we could redo it, though I dont know what that route would be. From what I've heard, one of Klaus' brothers behaved aggressively (the breeder still has him), but I unfortunately think this was kind of encouraged. 

I'm hoping that a trainer much more experienced than our breeder can help overcome these problems. 



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## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

Chip18 said:


> Aww well .... dumbing down what Jim stated to it's simplest context ... a "Prong Collar can put drive into a dog or take Drive out of a dog" depends on how it's used.
> 
> In this thread ... the "OP" has mentioned two issues no recall and up leash dog ...pick your battle! A dog can have crappy recall, lack of exercise and still not bite the crap out of it's owner! A dog can have not enough "exercise" and still not "bite the crap out of it's owner!"
> The dog is making a choice to pursue this course of action and needs to be taught to "make better choices!"
> ...



Thanks Chip. I agree that his biting is our main concern. His recall honestly isn't bad for his age I think, I just want to continue to work on it a lot.

My concern is that the dog already has some nerve issues on walks, especially related to sounds (he hates dogs barking). Would a Pet Corrector be at risk of making this worse?


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## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

selzer said:


> It sounds like the exercise for this dog isn't enough. Your typical walk for a mile isn't burning up his energy at all. Can you get out in the morning before you get ready for work and throw the ball so that he is full out running and getting some of it out of his system?
> 
> Yep, keep working with training. But, I think in the evening, you need to stimulate him more mentally, train for something that uses his instincts and challenges his brains, while not neglecting obedience. Train every day, 20-40 minutes. Mix it up, don't spend too much time on any one thing, introduce new stuff. Agility maybe.
> 
> ...


Ugh lost the response I wrote out, so this is going to be shorter.

Agility - I would love to, and I do think there's a club outside of the city, but at this point, that many dogs around him at once would still overwhelm him I think. Also my Hebrew is not good enough in this subject area, and it's hard to even find a trainer who will speak English to you here.

Corrections - I don't think we were really managing this until now. We thought we were, but like you mentioned, I think we were unintentionally rewarding it sometimes. We aren't using the prong yet as it hasn't arrived, and I'd like to work with the trainer with it initially to be sure that it won't have the opposite effect as you mentioned.

Exercise - By the end of the mile, he is exhausted - partially because he's anxious on that walk. Lot's of barking dogs, trash trucks, etc. I've decided he won't be coming to work with me again unless we can go to the park in the morning before and let him run. He isn't into balls, though he's getting better at fetch with stuffed toys, but he loves to run with us, run between us, we play hide and seek, and there's usually a dog he can play with.

I definitely want the trainer to see everything in person.


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## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

cliffson1 said:


> Take him to IDF trainer and let him work with you and your husband so you both are on same page in approach. At his age he needs to have CLEAR understanding about when and where he can use his teeth to bite. At six months prolonged treat based or reward based only training is not going to get it because there is a respect factor,( at least with you) that has to be instituted.


I agree. And my husband and I really do need to get more on the same page in our training styles. We even use different languages often (though his specific commands are the same between us), and I imagine that's confusing for him. Our concern with the IDF trainer was that, as a nervous dog, a training method like Koehler might encourage aggression (what our last trainer told us), but after talking to some people here, it sounds like this is not the case.


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## Ronin2016 (Feb 18, 2016)

I've gone through similar experiences with my guy. He would get so wound up and start to nip and bite, even on walks, and I had had enough. I contacted our new trainer, and we taught him HEEL right away, keeping the leash short, with a prong on, so that he didn't have a choice but to walk at my side. We really had to work on it, and at one point, he got so frustrated that he couldn't do what he wanted he bit me on the leg. Now, my guy at the time was 8 months, 65 pounds and he meant to bite me and draw blood, this wasn't a nip of displeasure, so I hope you can find a new trainer to help you with this. Or you will get to the point I was at. He still nips now, but we're working on that, but he has never tried to actually "bite" me again. Your boy sounds like he is trying to test the boundaries as well to see if what he is doing he will get away with and if he realizes, "Hey biting Mom was fun!" then he's going to keep doing it. I think you're well on your way and hopefully you can get it corrected before it becomes more serious.

I was not a very corrective person in the beginning with him, because I was told to only do Positive training, and in my guy's case, that only made things worse. Correcting can be hard because you feel bad sometimes after, but stick to your guns and it will get better!  Good luck!


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## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

Ronin2016 said:


> I've gone through similar experiences with my guy. He would get so wound up and start to nip and bite, even on walks, and I had had enough. I contacted our new trainer, and we taught him HEEL right away, keeping the leash short, with a prong on, so that he didn't have a choice but to walk at my side. We really had to work on it, and at one point, he got so frustrated that he couldn't do what he wanted he bit me on the leg. Now, my guy at the time was 8 months, 65 pounds and he meant to bite me and draw blood, this wasn't a nip of displeasure, so I hope you can find a new trainer to help you with this. Or you will get to the point I was at. He still nips now, but we're working on that, but he has never tried to actually "bite" me again. Your boy sounds like he is trying to test the boundaries as well to see if what he is doing he will get away with and if he realizes, "Hey biting Mom was fun!" then he's going to keep doing it. I think you're well on your way and hopefully you can get it corrected before it becomes more serious.
> 
> I was not a very corrective person in the beginning with him, because I was told to only do Positive training, and in my guy's case, that only made things worse. Correcting can be hard because you feel bad sometimes after, but stick to your guns and it will get better!  Good luck!


Thank you - that does sound a lot like our situation. I've been just like you described - I've given a few strong corrections to him (like the strong scruff shake recommended by Leerburg when he was younger and tried to get into something dangerous) and I felt so guilty about it afterwards. I realize now though that getting tougher and more regimented with him with proper corrections is really in his best interest. Just like you said, the positive only seems to have made things worse. As someone else mentioned earlier, the "halfway" corrections just tend to intensify his behavior or annoy him even more. I'm hoping the trainer can give me a lot of insight into how to give a proper correction and how to balance that with positive reinforcement. I'm really grateful for the advice everyone here has given me as well.


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## Pan_GSD (Oct 2, 2016)

telavivgsd said:


> Would a Pet Corrector be at risk of making this worse?


i actually used that tool once when my dog was biting me at the age of 3 months

it worked wonderfully the first 2 sprays !! i sprayed that thing as SOON as he bit me, away from his face, and he got scared. it produces a LOUD hiss sound

however, after the 10th spray, he has learnt that there is no real "follow through" to the scary noise and just ignored the Hiss since then

so needless to say, i no longer found use for it



in my opinion, it works better for dogs that you don't see on a daily basis since they will be "surprised" by the loud Hiss.

but any dog might find that it's nothing but a loud noise once they are exposed to it daily



who knows, you might find use in it, but i'm just telling you my experience

just sad that you are going through this where your "trusted" companion is biting his very own owner


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## Ronin2016 (Feb 18, 2016)

telavivgsd said:


> Thank you - that does sound a lot like our situation. I've been just like you described - I've given a few strong corrections to him (like the strong scruff shake recommended by Leerburg when he was younger and tried to get into something dangerous) and I felt so guilty about it afterwards. I realize now though that getting tougher and more regimented with him with proper corrections is really in his best interest. Just like you said, the positive only seems to have made things worse. As someone else mentioned earlier, the "halfway" corrections just tend to intensify his behavior or annoy him even more. I'm hoping the trainer can give me a lot of insight into how to give a proper correction and how to balance that with positive reinforcement. I'm really grateful for the advice everyone here has given me as well.


I had to seriously correct my thinking when it came to my guy. Our trainer, as soon as he saw him and what he was doing, said we needed to get him under control, because as soon as they start biting you, it's only a step away from biting someone else and we would have been forced to put him down. Now that Ronin is older, he has to have a more forceful correction. Last night, when I was getting ready for bed, Ronin didn't like that I wouldn't play with him, so he tried to nip me on the arm. I told him no, forced him into a down (yes I had to push him down because otherwise he just tried to continue to nip at me) and then moved away. However, he didn't like that, and that's when I knew he was going to need a firmer correction. He still had his prong on because I had only just come in from a walk with him and was getting out of my workout gear, and he launched himself off the floor and aimed for my legs again. And he meant a bite! I grabbed the hook on the back of the prong collar just in time and I yanked hard with a very loud and firm NO! and he yelped in surprise and moved away from me and back to his down without so much as a whimper or protest and then he was perfect the rest of the night. I didn't want to hurt him, but he has to know who's boss and that biting me is not acceptable.

I tell you this because with corrections, you have to be firm. You may hurt them for a second, but if your dog is biting you at this age, when he gets older and hits puberty, you're going to have what I have and he may bite someone. Now, last night after all of this and he lay on the bed with me, he opened his mouth to nip, but stopped himself and pulled back and I gave him all kinds of praise and pats and a treat for making the correct choice. He was wagging his tail and so happy and then went to sleep all calm and relaxed. Positive reinforcement is also a good thing, but they need to understand what you expect of them.


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## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

Pan_GSD said:


> i actually used that tool once when my dog was biting me at the age of 3 months
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks, that's very good to know. I'm so glad you're finding success with your pup by the way! I will talk to the trainer about the pet corrector too and see what he thinks as well. I totally see how it could be useful, my main concern, like I mentioned is his sensitivity to some noises - especially since it can easily (and effectively) scare a dog who's not sensitive.

Also, thank you, but don't feel sad! I love Klaus a ton, but even without the biting, I don't trust him! He's only just turning 6 m/o this week. He still loves making a mess, getting into trouble, etc., which I'm fine with in many cases because he's still a puppy. It's easy to forget since he's already about 60 lbs. but he is a puppy.

This recent behavior sucks, and of course I would rather we didn't have to deal with it. I still think he finds this to be fun more than it being aggressive, though it doesn't change that it has to stop. 

If he were my 4 year old loyal dog who suddenly decided to attack me (G-d forbid), then you could feel sad 




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## suejoh (Apr 13, 2015)

I have not read all the posts so I am probably repeating but I have had something like this with my working GSD.
She is now about 18 months old and I had her from 6 weeks. 
First off she is wonderful with people and other dogs. If dogs run barking at her she runs off wagging her tail and then runs back to them. Loves people too but from a pup if you jumped at her she would jump back at you. She did this to someone at my training club at 10 weeks old and he said I had to show her who is boss. Roll her on her back and hold her down, etc. However my thought was that I bought a working dog with high drive, she loves everyone - why would I destroy what I bought her for. She learns who is the boss because I control her food, she earns her treats, etc. 
However she did sometimes go crazy and bite me, bite me - jumping up and even if made her sit then as soon as she got up she started again. I went home crying at times, thinking I was doing it all wrong and I had made a terrible mistake. I read all the Land Shark posts and articles and found that I was not alone. In the end I found one article and the lady said that sometimes the only thing that worked is you hold your dog away from you and take him/her immediately to their crate and put them inside till they get over it. So I treated her the same as always - exercise, training, socialising - but if we had a biting episode then into the crate. She did not like it and even now if she thinks she has done wrong and goes in the crate then she sucks on her blanket. 
She has not done this to me for months but she still sometimes gets hyper with one of my other dogs and so I put her in the crate but it is very infrequent now.
On the boss side - she has spent a week with my husband very recently while I was away and she is definitely more in awe of him than me. Dam! We have a cat and up till recently the dog or the cat would be in a crate as my dog went into hunting mode whenever she saw the cat and in the early days we could not break her attention. She was totally fixated. Now they mix in the same room but only with us there. She stares at the cat and then her eyes slide to my husband. He says he did not hit her or roll her on her back but that he was clearer then me. 

The point of the stories above is that it has been a long journey with the dog. I dont always know what we did right or wrong but we never rolled her on her back to show her who is boss. She is still a work in progress and she is a happy, playful, fun dog to have around. I dont know your dog and so although it sounds like the same sort of behaviour I had from our dog just be careful and getting him checked by the vet is a good idea. If he is in pain then his behaviour will change. Assuming he is OK then I would carry on exercising and training but crate when he does the biting / jumping. I just think if you follow the forceful, I am boss route then there is no going back from that so be very sure it is what is required.

Stay safe. Good Luck


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## suejoh (Apr 13, 2015)

*land shark link*

This is quite a good link although I dont think it all applies to my dog.
Help! My Puppy's a Land Shark! - Dog Behavior and Training - Green Acres Kennel Shop

Also on taking to the crate - the person who advised this said when you take them to the crate there is no telling off or reaction from you (as far as possible - my thought here). She said hold them out to the side on the lead away from your body as they are probably still biting and get them in the cage. And yes my dog sometimes had a go at the bars when I put her in. This makes her sound manic but I think, as another post suggested, the dog is tired, over stimulated or similar and they dont have the control. As they get older I assume they get better at controlling themselves.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

I think there is some confusion. Positive reinforcement is a way to shape behavior, to reward the behavior you want. It doesn't mean you can't give a correction. 


If you have a dog that is biting you or challenging you for who is in charge, then I would suggest you do not let the dog sleep in your bed. You are in charge and the dog sleeps in a crate or on the floor.


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## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

Ronin2016 said:


> I had to seriously correct my thinking when it came to my guy. Our trainer, as soon as he saw him and what he was doing, said we needed to get him under control, because as soon as they start biting you, it's only a step away from biting someone else and we would have been forced to put him down. Now that Ronin is older, he has to have a more forceful correction. Last night, when I was getting ready for bed, Ronin didn't like that I wouldn't play with him, so he tried to nip me on the arm. I told him no, forced him into a down (yes I had to push him down because otherwise he just tried to continue to nip at me) and then moved away. However, he didn't like that, and that's when I knew he was going to need a firmer correction. He still had his prong on because I had only just come in from a walk with him and was getting out of my workout gear, and he launched himself off the floor and aimed for my legs again. And he meant a bite! I grabbed the hook on the back of the prong collar just in time and I yanked hard with a very loud and firm NO! and he yelped in surprise and moved away from me and back to his down without so much as a whimper or protest and then he was perfect the rest of the night. I didn't want to hurt him, but he has to know who's boss and that biting me is not acceptable.
> 
> I tell you this because with corrections, you have to be firm. You may hurt them for a second, but if your dog is biting you at this age, when he gets older and hits puberty, you're going to have what I have and he may bite someone. Now, last night after all of this and he lay on the bed with me, he opened his mouth to nip, but stopped himself and pulled back and I gave him all kinds of praise and pats and a treat for making the correct choice. He was wagging his tail and so happy and then went to sleep all calm and relaxed. Positive reinforcement is also a good thing, but they need to understand what you expect of them.


Aw that's so good that this has helped him. I'm so happy to hear that people have been able to work through similar issues.


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## MissChloe (Oct 31, 2016)

Deb said:


> I think there is some confusion. Positive reinforcement is a way to shape behavior, to reward the behavior you want. It doesn't mean you can't give a correction...


Thanks for the clarification. I seem to always get that mixed up. My previous dogs did fine with rewards and praise. Partly due to their breed, their temperament within their breed and, in the case of Miss Chloe, her age when I got her. I could see the limitations of that approach though especially when something was more interesting than me or the reward. With my lab, I'm using positive reinforcement and to get to the point where he can do off-leash retrieves and follow a couple of hand signals from a distance is fun beyond words. A work in progress though.

There's always a responsibility when you get a dog but I really feel it with all the comments here. I'm rooting for your success, *telavivgsd*.


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## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

suejoh said:


> This is quite a good link although I dont think it all applies to my dog.
> Help! My Puppy's a Land Shark! - Dog Behavior and Training - Green Acres Kennel Shop
> 
> Also on taking to the crate - the person who advised this said when you take them to the crate there is no telling off or reaction from you (as far as possible - my thought here). She said hold them out to the side on the lead away from your body as they are probably still biting and get them in the cage. And yes my dog sometimes had a go at the bars when I put her in. This makes her sound manic but I think, as another post suggested, the dog is tired, over stimulated or similar and they dont have the control. As they get older I assume they get better at controlling themselves.


Thank you, I really appreciate you taking the time to reply. I'm really happy that using the crate has been helping with your girl. When Klaus was in his puppy biting phase, this was how we responded when he wouldn't redirect biting to a toy. When he got overstimulated, he went in the crate for 5-10 minutes with something appropriate to chew on like a bully stick, and it was effective for that. But that behavior was different than what we're dealing with now.

At this point, I don't know how much that would help. For one thing, he likes his crate, and I've never seen him really upset about going in there. The main problem is that this behavior usually isn't happening at home. In some cases, yes - like when we are trying to put the leash on, but anything more serious has been outside of the home, so no crate option. I definitely don't plan on using the whole "alpha roll" thing. For one thing, pretty soon he'll be too big for me to even do that if he really doesn't want me to, so a don't see it as a real solution. 

I think a correction with a nylon choke or a prong is reasonable when he's exhibiting this unacceptable behavior though, combined with praise and rewards for the right behavior. As for getting better at controlling himself as he gets older, I feel, as others have mentioned, that his behavior has become self rewarding, so I don't see any incentive right now for him to stop. The longer I wait to stop this, in my mind, the bigger he will be and the more ingrained the behavior will be, so I really don't feel like it can wait.


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## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

Deb said:


> I think there is some confusion. Positive reinforcement is a way to shape behavior, to reward the behavior you want. It doesn't mean you can't give a correction.
> 
> 
> If you have a dog that is biting you or challenging you for who is in charge, then I would suggest you do not let the dog sleep in your bed. You are in charge and the dog sleeps in a crate or on the floor.


Wait now I'm confused - I do plan to still use positive reinforcement with corrections mixed in. 

He definitely doesn't sleep in our bed. I can hardly share a bed with a human, much less a human + a giant dog. He sleeps in his crate, or very occasionally (a.k.a. when we all pass out watching a movie) on the floor next to the bed.


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## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

MissChloe said:


> There's always a responsibility when you get a dog but I really feel it with all the comments here. I'm rooting for your success, *telavivgsd*.


Thanks a bunch!


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

telavivgsd said:


> Wait now I'm confused - I do plan to still use positive reinforcement with corrections mixed in.
> 
> He definitely doesn't sleep in our bed. I can hardly share a bed with a human, much less a human + a giant dog. He sleeps in his crate, or very occasionally (a.k.a. when we all pass out watching a movie) on the floor next to the bed.



Someone giving you advice mentioned these things. I didn't want you to think because they did it, it was all right to do.


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## cruzingwithk9s (Nov 6, 2014)

Please whatever you do, do not take him to the trainer that uses military like training. I have seen military training and it is not nice. The guy can show you one thing and do something totally different when you are not around. Remember you are the dogs family. Would you send your kids off to be trained without you? Would you let a stranger discipline your dog in public when you are right there (and I am talking about a complete stranger walking up to you and telling you you are doing it wrong). Some dogs when given bad training will just shut down. People mistake it for compliance but the dog has just learned to give up. I would not want my dogs to learn something that way. It is a partnership and you work together. If you cannot do it before you leave abroad, then do it when you come back but do not leave your dog with this guy. Also something to think about, if something happens that the trainer thinks they have a right to kill your dog when you are gone. I have heard about that happening too. Some trainer could not train the dog the right way and when they did it the wrong way and the dog did react the way they wanted to, they beat it (and it died). So please always use caution if you are going to leave a dog.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

But cruzing, the widdle puppy bit his mommy. That wasn't very nice either. I hope he does learn to just give that up.


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## Majikman (Oct 10, 2011)

My high drive GSD did the same puppy biting. Nothing was more humiliating than entering a crosswalk with a well behaved adolescent pup 1/2 way across suddenly jump and bite your wrist. As a single older woman I was fearful that I could not control or manage her. She's now 5 y.o. and I couldn't ask for a better mannered, more loving, smart, happy, obedient dog. I was told if I could hang in through the puppy stage, I'd think I'd died and gone to heaven when she was 4. This is what worked for me: 1. I recognized that her jumping and biting (only me, never any one else) was NOT aggression, but her puppy brain asking me to play. At first I was so startled that I would shriek and flap my arms (prey behavior) which triggered her "yippee! game on prey drive". Once I learned to remain still, she became confused and would bite harder until I learned to redirect onto a ball, toy, tug or whatever. I would also give obedience commands of sit or down (once she had mastered the commands). I also had a plastic sleeve made for my arm's protection while we worked through this. I never used punishment, but would subdue her when necessary by holding her by the cheek/neck ruff very firmly until she calmed. The activity I found extremely helpful was scent work as it engaged her brain, and used up lots of energy. She loves it and we've won several titles in nosework. Since she had such a problem "capping" herself as a young dog, I held off on agility until she was a bit more mature. She's phenomenal at it. Work with a good positive reinforcement trainer and try different things to see what your dog responds to. I could never use a prong collar as she'd come up the leash at me. Having a super smart, super sensitive, high drive, very confident dog is a challenge, but sooooo worth it. 
P.S. She loves people, kids, other dogs, has no fear of bikes, skate boards, gun shots and we're welcomed in coffee shops and stores in my town. She's a long haired GSD with some WL in her pedigree.


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## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

cruzingwithk9s said:


> Please whatever you do, do not take him to the trainer that uses military like training. I have seen military training and it is not nice. The guy can show you one thing and do something totally different when you are not around. Remember you are the dogs family. Would you send your kids off to be trained without you? Would you let a stranger discipline your dog in public when you are right there (and I am talking about a complete stranger walking up to you and telling you you are doing it wrong). Some dogs when given bad training will just shut down. People mistake it for compliance but the dog has just learned to give up. I would not want my dogs to learn something that way. It is a partnership and you work together. If you cannot do it before you leave abroad, then do it when you come back but do not leave your dog with this guy. Also something to think about, if something happens that the trainer thinks they have a right to kill your dog when you are gone. I have heard about that happening too. Some trainer could not train the dog the right way and when they did it the wrong way and the dog did react the way they wanted to, they beat it (and it died). So please always use caution if you are going to leave a dog.




The guy is a reputable trainer with good references. We wouldn't leave him without seeing the premises, watching him train, etc. He has the option of the board and train or a one on one course. We're also talking to two others at this moment. From what I've seen, board and trains can do a lot of good. 


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## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

telavivgsd said:


> The guy is a reputable trainer with good references. We wouldn't leave him without seeing the premises, watching him train, etc. He has the option of the board and train or a one on one course. We're also talking to two others at this moment. From what I've seen, board and trains can do a lot of good.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




I feel like I should clarify - we haven't decided on the board and train by any means, it just crossed our mind. Even if we do, we'll be doing private classes with the trainer before and after. 


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

You sound like someone who understands that you will need to work one on one with the trainer regardless of whether you do board and train.

Investigating where you may leave the dog is definitely warranted and smart, but it sounds like you have already done that.

One of the biggest benefits that pops into my mine regarding board and train and I can't remember how long you would be away, but if the dog is in a kennel and being handled by average people he may get a chance to practice this nonsense plus being extra pent up and possibly under exercised depending on how they keep the dogs?

Where if he were at b&t he would be being handled by (presumably) someone who he can't get away with this stuff and will get some exercise and mental stimulation every day? This one seems like definitely a better starting point for you when you return.

But I also have it in my head that you are traveling anyway? Because if you weren't, board and train wouldn't necessarily be my number one pick for dealing with this...


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## DeniseDonechibicat (Mar 1, 2015)

Televivgsd,

At 6 months old my mail intact working line GSD did the same thing to me. It usually occurred on our way to the playground at lunchtime (he came to work with me) and leaving the playground afterwards. It wasn't as violent as you describe but it scared and embarrassed me too. I called my trainer after a couple incidences and was told that he cannot control his impulses yet. Going to the park he is too excited and leaving the park too upset and wants to stop me. The best advice was remain calm which at first was difficult. Then to stand on the leash so that he was prevented from jumping up. She to stop in my tracks and wait his explosion out. Fortunately the park is fenced in and when he was too much for me to stand on the leash I would quickly tie it around the fencing and back off until he settled down. I gave him NO extra attention or reaction for his behavior. I simply waited and then proceeded on my course leash walking him. I believe he found it very frustrating to be tied up while he was having a melt down. This was a VERY brief phase and I hope your is too. Good luck


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## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> You sound like someone who understands that you will need to work one on one with the trainer regardless of whether you do board and train.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thank you, yeah I totally agree, that's why I was thinking of it! We'll be gone about two weeks. Regardless of if we do the board and train, you made me realize we should make sure we find someone experienced to stay with to avoid letting him get away with these behaviors. 



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## evakoz (Dec 2, 2015)

Is there a way to manipulate the prong collar to stop a behavior? isn't it simple snap? I would love to learn more.


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## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

DeniseDonechibicat said:


> Televivgsd,
> 
> At 6 months old my mail intact working line GSD did the same thing to me. It usually occurred on our way to the playground at lunchtime (he came to work with me) and leaving the playground afterwards. It wasn't as violent as you describe but it scared and embarrassed me too. I called my trainer after a couple incidences and was told that he cannot control his impulses yet. Going to the park he is too excited and leaving the park too upset and wants to stop me. The best advice was remain calm which at first was difficult. Then to stand on the leash so that he was prevented from jumping up. She to stop in my tracks and wait his explosion out. Fortunately the park is fenced in and when he was too much for me to stand on the leash I would quickly tie it around the fencing and back off until he settled down. I gave him NO extra attention or reaction for his behavior. I simply waited and then proceeded on my course leash walking him. I believe he found it very frustrating to be tied up while he was having a melt down. This was a VERY brief phase and I hope your is too. Good luck




It is really nice to hear that others have gone through this and gotten past it. Though I'm sorry you had to, of course! My big mistake was having him on a harness, because no matter how I held the leash, he could get to me. It's really helpful to hear how you handled it, thank you!


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## Majikman (Oct 10, 2011)

I also stood on the leash. Another thing I did at home was to grab her collar and unceremoniously drag her to the back door and shove her outside to chill out (being banished was severe punishment for my dog). I'd let her back in the house as soon as she was calm and be lavished with kisses. If she started the biting again, out she'd go. She very quickly learned good behavior at home. One trainer told me to turn my back to her when she misbehaved. Alas, with my dog it only upped her frustration level. There are many tools a good trainer has up her sleeve. The thing is to get into your dog's head and figure out what works. Don't expect perfection. Do expect relapses and go back to square 1. Trust me---patience, rewarding good behavior while ignoring bad will pay off in spades.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

evakoz said:


> Is there a way to manipulate the prong collar to stop a behavior? isn't it simple snap? I would love to learn more.


My tool of choice is a Slip Lead Leash but in discussing that (Prong Collars) came up which is the tool of choice by "Pro's" and the tool they instruct on how to use properly. 

In this thread.:
Slip Lead leash - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums

You'll find "prong Clips" form Jeff Gellman,(soildk9training) Sean Oshea (The Good Dog (he uses lots of "stuff") and Tylor Muto. All those guys have videos on the proper use of a "Prong Collar." You still made need hands on instruction but if you watch those guys you'll have at least a better understanding of what a "Prong Collar" is about.


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## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

I just want to say thanks again to everyone. We finally got to start with the prong collar today and it was like walking a whole different dog. He was so well behaved when we used it, and I never had to give any real correction. 

We're trying to be much more consistent and disciplined with his schedule to give him more structure, we've upped his exercise a bit, and we've started doing some scent games at home with treats that he loves so far. My husband and I also trying to get on the same page training and discipline wise - what's allowed and what's not. We've both really put our foot down about teeth on our skin at any time, and he seems to be catching on. 

We'll hopefully be meeting with some of the trainer options this week to choose one and get started. 

Thanks again, and I hope to report back in a few months that we've really gotten past these issues. 

(Attaching 2 pictures because I'm kind of obsessed with him - goofy ear and all)

















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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

That is great news. Everything you have done so far can only help and sounds like it already is. I bet you'll get him straightened out in no time!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

LOL those are pretty much the craziest set of ears I've seen. 

Great work and keep us updated.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Just make sure it's fitted properly and he's not in constant pain. I usually check to see if the chain isn't tangled a few times a day.


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## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

:toasting: Yay!! Great job! You're on your way!:congratulations::happyboogie:


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## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

Thank you all so much - the support here is so encouragng! 



Chip18 said:


> LOL those are pretty much the craziest set of ears I've seen.
> 
> Great work and keep us updated.


They never quite know what they're doing! :laugh2:
Occasionally they're up, but mostly they're goofy. I stopped worrying about them when I realized we had bigger issues, so it will be interesting to see what becomes of them! I'll admit that I'm starting to grow partial to them that way :wink2:




Julian G said:


> Just make sure it's fitted properly and he's not in constant pain. I usually check to see if the chain isn't tangled a few times a day.


I will definitely make sure to do that. I tried to fit it like I saw on the graphics on Leerburg - as high up the neck as possible. I think he's a bit between links right now, so I went with bigger rather than smaller, so it slides down a little when we walk, but is still high on the neck. I hope that's right. One question - should the chain section be pulled completely flat before the leash is clipped on? Hopefully I'm explaining that right.

I did notice that since we've used it, even when I take him out on his flat collar to go to the bathroom, etc. he behaves better and doesn't pull like he did, so that's an added plus.


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## coolgsd (May 1, 2010)

*Dominance*

I have had GSDs for 45 years. They never are aggressive against the owner unless the owner is totally unable to control the dog and the dog is dealing out a disrespectful challenge of authority or has a bad temperment.
If a dog will become aggressive against their owner, they will just as easily become aggressive against a neighbor, a walker, a child on a bike. Don't follow a trainer that is a canine version of "Dr Spock". You will end up with more than a brat dog - you will end up with a dangerous dog.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

telavivgsd said:


> Thank you all so much - the support here is so encouragng!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


When the dog pulls there should be a little slack on the chain, I also do what you do, mine isn't completely tight and high on the neck. As long as it's somewhat snug and not too tight not too loose you should be fine. I leave the prong on all day and take it off at night before bed. I know this is advised against but it's a pain in the butt to get them on and off before every walk. I just make sure the dog is comfortable with it on throughout the day. I can usually tell if I need to give it a slight adjustment if the dog is scratching around the prong area. Sometimes the links can pull the hair a bit.
And yes, they catch on fast. They behave better with the prong off in no time. Some dogs need the prong forever but most just for a few months or so with proper training. You can then look at slip collars just for security a bit later on. Though there is debate on which one is "worse":smile2:
Leerburg | Dominant Dog Collar?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Leave it on all day? Poor dog, that must be like lying on a bed of nails every time he lies his head down. You think you are are inconvenienced with taking it on and off, think about how your dog feels when he can't rest in comfort all day.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Leaving a prong on a dog that is unsupervised is a safety concern. There is something to be said for collar conditioning, so the dog does not notice he is wearing it and become dependant on it. But even this should be done with supervision, and not when they are expected to rest or sleep. 

One way I do it is if I am going to walk my dog on a prong I will put it on him 15 minutes before I am going to leave, not when I get the leash and rest of my gear and my shoes and so on. Or if I am going to do training offleash I will put it on him and let him wear it un used so the act of putting on the prong collar does not associate with what it does. This makes it much more possible to wean off of it down the road (no rush), where if you slap it on, clip to it, and the dog immediately feels the sensation then he can pretty easily make the connection of whether or not he is wearing it and what it does.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Leaving a prong on a dog that is unsupervised is a safety concern. There is something to be said for collar conditioning, so the dog does not notice he is wearing it and become dependant on it. But even this should be done with supervision, and not when they are expected to rest or sleep.
> 
> One way I do it is if I am going to walk my dog on a prong I will put it on him 15 minutes before I am going to leave, not when I get the leash and rest of my gear and my shoes and so on. Or if I am going to do training offleash I will put it on him and let him wear it un used so the act of putting on the prong collar does not associate with what it does. This makes it much more possible to wean off of it down the road (no rush), where if you slap it on, clip to it, and the dog immediately feels the sensation then he can pretty easily make the connection of whether or not he is wearing it and what it does.


With all the GSDs I have had, and currently own, training was/is easily done without a prong. 

I am not saying a prong does not have its place.

I am saying most dogs don't need a prong and to be neglectful in its use is really sad for the dog. I can't imagine not being able to lay one's head down to rest in comfort day after day after day.....


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## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

*Quick update and Caucasian Ovcharkas*

Just as a quick update, we started with our new trainer today. We decided against the board and train, and the trainer we decided on doesn't recommend them anyhow except in a few circumstances. Klaus will be staying with someone experienced when we travel for 10 days in December though.

We'll be doing small group lessons, but for the first day, the trainer did some little tests with Klaus for an analysis and then we had a shorter private lesson while a group session was going on next to us. We stayed and watched one of the more advanced group lessons too. Almost all of the dogs there at the session were Malinois and GSDs (and one lone boxer). The best news was that after doing some tests (things like bringing his dog past Klaus, opening an umbrella), he said that he didn't think that Klaus was really an abnormally nervous puppy, that it's manageable, and that when he is spooked by something, he recovers quickly. He also said he's very easily trainable, and he thinks we will see fast improvement as long as we practice a lot on our own. 

I was really impressed with Klaus too - the lessons take place at a big farm type place that has a breeding operation (not the trainer's) and an agility field. Basically there were a lot of dogs, barking, etc., and Klaus stayed really focused like 80% of the time. We worked mostly on heeling, and I think he really caught on.

We've been using the prong collar when training or when just one of us is walking him (when he had the most issues), and we really haven't had to use it for corrections for the most part. I'm hoping we can go back to a flat collar or a martingale collar in a few months. Anyhow - we have lots of practice to do, but I'm feeling really optimistic. No more biting, and he's really seemed to learn the meaning of "no" much better since I first posted, as we've been firmer.


*Side note* - the place the lessons were at breeds Caucasian Ovcharkas for livestock guarding. I made a wrong turn and wound up next to the run of one of the stud dogs, and let me say, I've never been so glad to have a fence between me and a dog. That thing was massive and sounded like some kind of movie monster. I did get to cuddle with a couple of the two month puppies when someone from the breeding operation was walking them, and they were the hugest balls of fluff I've ever seen. So adorable. I could totally see how it could seem like a good idea to get one as a puppy and not realize what you were getting into. I did see two of the puppies get into a tussle, and even at 2 months they sounded like a full blown dog fight. Definitely not for the inexperienced dog owner.

Anyways, I'll stop reviving this thread, I just wanted to let everyone know how it went with the trainer and to share my optimism! Enjoy your weekends! :smile2:


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Thanks for the update, sounds like you're on the right track!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

telavivgsd said:


> Anyways, I'll stop reviving this thread, I just wanted to let everyone know how it went with the trainer and to share my optimism! Enjoy your weekends! :smile2:


Please "don't" stop updating us!!!

It's actually kinda rare that we get feedback!!  

You certainly sound like your unders a lot less! And the lone "Boxer" LOL even world wide ... there is always that guy or girl! 

And "Caucasian Ovcharkas??" Uh yeah ... that's a dog! To funny lookin for my taste but I know enough about them to know that they are "Not" a dog for fools! Sounds like your making progress congrads.


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## telavivgsd (Jul 6, 2016)

Chip18 said:


> Please "don't" stop updating us!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thank you! It was a very sweet boxer! Poor thing must have felt like the odd one out with all those long snouts around him!


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## RAC (Nov 10, 2020)

telavivgsd said:


> A new and troubling behavior has come up with our puppy - I've read some threads similar to it here, but I don't think they were to this degree, and while I was convinced it was a phase, today has me pretty concerned. We're seeing our current trainer tomorrow, but we're still looking for a new one. I'm not confident she will really see the situation as it's random, and I wanted to get outside input.
> 
> Klaus is almost 6 months, and while he's energetic (and, as I've discussed here, sometimes nervous/dog reactive, though this has improved a ton), he's generally a really good dog, and loves people.
> 
> ...


I was searching the internet regarding this. My 5 month GSD started doing this. For 2 days now.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

RAC said:


> I was searching the internet regarding this. My 5 month GSD started doing this. For 2 days now.


4 year old thread and the OP hasn't been on this site for over 2 years. Start a new topic and give specific information on what you're dealing with. 

Age, sex of dog, your experience with large working breeds, what your normal days looks like as far as exercise/obedience, how the dog is doing with commands beyond the basics come sit stay etc. 

How do you do corrections now, does your dog still nip/bite/mouth or are there just new specific instances? The more details the better.


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