# Bullied by Vet



## TreenaHope (Feb 4, 2017)

Well it has been a year now that I have had my 6yr old on prey model. As some of you know he had yeasty ears, bladder infections and behaviour problems prior to prey model. A year later no yeasty ears or bladder infections, and instead of being constantly fearful , anxious , overreactive and miserable ... he is calmer, and happy. This dog used to be so anxious and unhappy that I even contemplated having him euthanised. Now he is calmer, his ears are up and he wags his tail all the time. A year ago I didn't even think his tail could wag ! Don't get me wrong .. he still has some fears that I need to be cautious of but generally he is happy and we are finally able to enjoy life. His health has been great except for a chronic dry , crusty nose. Which leads me to now. This chronic crusty dry nose has only been since feeding raw. It is crusty snotty at times but clear. No yellow or green discharge. He drinks much less water since on raw. So a couple of night ago he had 3 brief nosebleeds and two more minor ones the next day. They were not external. They were actual nosebleeds. No more in the last 2 days.
Took him to the vet today and $700 later , he doesn't know what is causing Egan's chronic crusty nose but I did get bullied into vaccines. Rabies, parvo, leptospirosis, distemper. I am not even sure if all those are necessary. I am confused about what is needed and what is over vaccinating. 
Came home with interceptor 6 month suppley for heartworm which apparently I should give from June till November..Don't know about you but I have never seen a mosquito in Ottawa in October let alone November. This was after I made clear I did not want to give heartworm meds all year long despite the vets arguement about "unseasonably warm Christmas" . The vet said that the neurotoxins that kill heartworm larvae do not affect dogs in any adverse way... hmm. I think I would still like to minimize this so I guess a 6 month course rather than 12 months is the compromise ?
Then as far as his nose goes I need to point out that it gets alot better when I fill up the bathtub ( which he will drink from rather than his bowl) and again say this has been going on for a year but only clear dishcharge.
So the vet says that it could be a bacterial infection and wants to do an expensive culture and put him on antibiotics and see what happens. Huh ? I said to the vet .. if he had a bacterial infection going on for a year surely there would be yellow/green discharge , pain, fever ?? The vets reponse.."not necessarily". Again ..hmm. I chose not to do a culture on put him on antibiotics for the **** of it. 
So the vet does not fell anything structurally wrong with his sinuses . No swelling or apparent blockage. So of course he says the next step to consider is .. knocking him out , shoving a scope up his nose and sending away a biopsy...whoa down buddy ! (Did I mention other than a chronic dry nose...his mental emotional and physical health is better than I have ever seen it ). Needless to say I am opting for getting him to drink more and perhaps buying a humidifier. 
But wait there's more.. the fear mongering about how the prey model diet with feedsentials, shemp oil , and sundae Sunday is not balanced and how the vet says he has "seen a dog who got septecemia from raw" and how raw fed dog's have shorter lifespans, and osteo arthritis. and how their guts are not as strong as wolves and can't handle salmonilla and parasites... etc , etc. 
So I got talked into running bloodwork .. chem (24) and cbc plus urinalysis to "make sure he is getting the nutrients he needs and his organs are working properly". Expect the problem is when his results come back... they will be compared to what is considered "normal" for dry fed dogs. So I am worried this will give the vet more fodder for fear mongering.
Then he wanted to give me a supplement called Hillary's blend which is all synthetic vitamins and minerals and has calcuim. I passed on that because I was worried about too much calcium etc. He already gets 10% bone. I follow the muscle meat to organ (5% liver) to bone ratio.
When I tried to tell the vet about the extensive research I had done on prey model and that I had even talked to some established gsd breeders .. his response was that "breeders don't know what they are doing necessarily".
Despite the obvious signs that Egan was not the neurotic fearful mess that he once was....the vet would not even aknowledge the positive changes. 
It was truly the most awful experience and has left me feeling battered and fearful that he is nutrient deprived and I may be doing some kind of long term damage ??
I take Egan to this clinic because he is very fearful of medical procedures and must be knocked out for safety sake but I have to say that I am dreading his test results and dreading any future visits. 
Any insight / advice on any of the above concerns is appreciated. Thanks for the support.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Find a new vet.

It's your dog, you are your dogs voice.


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

Congratulations on all that you two have accomplished so far. You've come a long way. I too would find another vet ASAP. If you post your location, someone may be able to recommend a practice that isn't so .... problematic.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Sounds like you've done an awesome job with your dog. But I'm not sure what you want from a vet? I would think most vets are going to want to do a blood panel to determine if there is any infection. Wanting dogs on heartworm prevention is standard. If you don't want more shots, you can request a titer be done. The first thing my vet would probably do is a culture to see what was going on and probably antibiotics as well. I'm not sure you're going to find a vet who can just look at his nose and diagnose it and give you the answer of how to fix it without some sort of testing to see what it is.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Some things you can't feed your way out of. I don't think scoping or culturing a chronic nose condition sounds all that wrong....expensive, yes, but a pretty mainstream approach. Doing a course of inexpensive abx before scoping, to see if they solve the problem (and to save money) would also seem reasonable to me: the usual idea is to try the cheap meds first, esp. if they're likely to solve the issue, and if it doesn't work, move onto the more expensive diagnostics. That's an approach that saves clients money. It may lead to overuse of abx though -- that's certainly true. The alternative is going straight to the expensive diagnostics though, and most clients want to avoid that due to cost.

I also don't think the HW recommendation is troubling: these meds work _retroactively_, killing baby HWs that are already 30 days old. That November dose kills October larvae, so you have to go into cold weather a bit, even in northern climates, particularly if you're in a cycle of warmer winters lately. (In the USA, the American HW Association now recommends year-round prevention even in Northern climates.) Most HW meds are easy on the dog because the dose is _extremely _low. If you want to be scared of something, research HW _treatment _using Immiticide (an arsenic compound that is given over 2 months, and it's extremely hard on the dog's body...so hard on them that a small percentage die during treatment). If you stop prevention too early and end up with HWs, that toxic treatment costs $1000-2000. So...your vet's rec sounds about right. 

The bloodwork you describe also sounds pretty standard to start the detective work on the nasal issue. A lot of us do that bloodwork annually -- and the urinalysis would seem pretty standard to me for a dog that isn't drinking much. Again, nothing really surprising here.

I'm not a vet, but I oversee the rescue treatment of scores of dogs a year and pay tens of thousands of dollars a year to a phenomenally good vet team...and so far, nothing here would strike me as out of the ordinary in the approach.

The feeding scare tactic seems to be the real issue here, and maybe that colored all of the rest of the exam. It may also be that his mannerism was condescending or otherwise inappropriate--and that's certainly not worth paying for. You'd likely be better with someone who will talk through your concerns and explain the science behind recommendations -- as far as I know (and I've looked), there's NO science about raw helping or hurting lifespan. Controlled, life-long, double-blind studies comparing balanced, complete raw diets with premium kibble simply haven't been done, so reliable evidence doesn't exist either way. There are hypotheses and anecdotes. (Raw feeders make all sorts of factual claims that are equally unsupported going the other direction--and those are just as invalid.) What we have are some short studies about bacterial contamination, some clinical experiences like your vet's with illnesses, and lots and lots of reported feeding experiences that are pretty positive (and some that are negative, particularly with unbalanced diets). Nevertheless, anecdotes aren't data, and no one has the data.

Without data, all you can do is look at the dog in front of you, the improvements you've seen and make the best decision you can. Good evidence-based vets will know this, and talk it through with you--risks and benefits. Don't trust vets on EITHER side who talk in absolutes about what they "know" about raw feeding--it usually means they don't really know the literature and are talking out of their back-side.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Scarier is that the vet forced vaccines on a dog who may not be healthy. Vaccines state for use in healthy animals. This dog is not currently healthy and if the problems he has are caused by an autoimmune issue than the vet may have just done great harm. 

Crusty nose and nose bleeds are not normal and the testing the vet recommended may be warranted. I would find another vet, though, for a second opinion. I would find another vet, period, to be honest. I don't care for vets who treat their clients as though they are stupid or always uninformed.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I worked at a cafe that catered to the gluten-free crowd last summer (had to pay off a big vet bill), and there are lots of similarities between the gluten free ideology "victimization" almost, and the fanatic raw feeders. I have no problem with a person going gluten free, and raw feeding done right is fine, but to believe that gluten or kibble/vaccines/modern medicine is the root cause of all evil is when it goes too far.

If this vet is really a bully and making the OP feel stupid and not willing to explain his suggestions, finding someone else is the right way to go. You want the vet to be a working partner, not an opponent.

But almost any vet will push for updated vaccines especially for rabies, because its the law and terrible things can happen to a dog who is not vaccinated for rabies- and it's illegal almost anywhere to not update the rabies vaccination. 

Heartworm is a real problem, preventing it is far better than treating it.

If the dog is ill, bloodwork, a trial of antibiotics, and further diagnosis are all standard care. 

Vets do see issues with a poorly formulated raw diet, so asking after diet isn't a bad idea either. The vet is right that just being a breeder does not make a person a nutrition expert. 

I also agree with everything Mag said in her post. My vets understand I have a medical background and are happy to work with me in partnership when it comes to my dogs' care, but it goes both ways. I don't bully them and they don't bully me. Be careful not to alienate your vet- everyone is human, and nobody likes to be thought of as stupid.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

With the exception of the vaccines in a possibly unhealthy dog, I dont disagree with the vets recommendations.

There are no scientific, peer reviewed research on the benefits of Raw fed dogs. And with out, its difficult for vets to recommend or condone. There are a lot of anecdotal evidence, buts thats it. I am glad your dog is doing better on the diet. I dont personally feed raw, but have no issue with it if done correctly.

However if you dog is so dehyrdrated on the RAW that his nose is so dry that he is bleeding, then something is wrong. Either its not balanced or your dog is not utilizing the moisture on the raw food correctly and that is something that should be investigated.

It sounds to me like you had already decided in your brain that the dog needed to drink more water, so you disregraded any suggestion the veterinarian brought forward, except the BW and now you have decided in your head that the values are going to be off becasue of the RAW diet. And yes, some values will be a bit but that information is fairly easy to find so you can deal with that if it happens. However, if a normal kidney value is supposed to be between 1-2, its NOT the raw if its 3. It may be the RAW if its 2.2. (these values are made up in my head to illustrate my point)

I do think your vet sounds as if they did not give you the benefit of any doubt, and made assumptions that may be untrue. I think thats wrong. Vets are supposed to be there to support the owner and not shame them, and if you felt shamed, then you should look for a new vet. However, we have to be partners too. That means being open to a discussion.

I love breeders, I have gotten my dogs from great breeders. I respect them and know that they have an enormous amount of knowledge and information. But I dont make medical decision based on their personal experience. Just like if I had kids I would not make medical decisions based on what my friend who has 6 kids says she has seen with her kids. Could she give me some ideas and things to bring to my pediatrician, sure. But thats me. 

I work for a vet, full disclosure. So i have an enormous amount of respect for them. But I do my own research, I dont always follow their advice. but I dont automatically think they are out to get me or shove pills in my dog. We have conversations, we discuss, I decide what is best for me and my dog and my finances and my life and the dogs quality of life. I advocate for my dog and the care I want to give them. But they are my partners in the care of my dog. If you dont feel that way, because your vet disagrees with you, then go somewhere else. But then again, I dont think we should surround ourselves with "yes men" i like being challenged a bit sometimes. 

Ok sorry, this reply got away from me a bit. Passionate subject. LOL

I sincerely wish you and your dog good luck.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think that you should ask him to do bloodwork for lupis. The dry crusty nose, might be that issue. 

The thing with vets, sometimes, when they hear something, they can't seem to get past it. If the ER vet hears the bitch is not spayed, they immediately think pyometra, and can't seem to consider other possibilities. The same is true when some vets hear the word, "raw." 

Actually, heartgard has ivermectin in it and it can be bad for herding breeds. My sister in law's collie died from being wormed with ivermectin. But collies are notorious for having that gene that is an issue. Sheps, not so much, but not unheard of. 

As for vaccines. Dr. Dodds I think has a protocol. What I do is 3 sets of puppy shots, 7 weeks, 11 weeks, and 16 weeks for parvo-distemper 5 way (has adenovirus and para-influenza and 1 other). And at 16 weeks I do the rabies. 1 year later these are boosted, rabies and the 5 way parvo/distemper. Then no more vaccines for 3 years. So at about 16 months old, and then 4 years, and then 7 years, and then 10 years. If they make it to 12 or 14 and need a vaccine, I pass. The shots are supposed to last 5-7 years. There is NO science to the three years, but otherwise I think you had better titer, and titering costs a lot more. 

Flea and tick preventatives that live in the blood stream and work up to a month to six weeks, well they are convenient for us, but I don't know if they are really good for the dog at all. It is an insecticide working in your dog's system as a preventive. I figure if I see a flea, everyone gets treated, for two months. Until then, we'll pass. Ticks are more of a problem as serious diseases can come from them. You can just look at spots that are likely for a tick to go, if you go into brush or woods, or use a topical flea/tick spray when you go out. 

As for heartworm. I stopped giving heartworm meds about 8 years ago. Periodically I get my dogs checked, and yes we do have mosquitos here even sometimes in October (not many in October). So far I've been lucky. I know it is expensive to treat. But I don't know what kind of damage the constant preventatives are doing to dogs. Maybe I just need to get wallupped to get serious on this one. I used to give them, and yes, I did the six months on, six months off. Then I did the revolution which had heartworm for six months. Then I stopped. 

Feeding; I think it is very possible for a vet to see ill-effects from people feeding RAW. This is because a lot of people do things with little thought. They just throw chicken at the dog. And yes, chicken is not enough to keep your dog in good shape. Maybe if you hacked off the head of a home-raised chicken, plucked it and let the dog eat the whole of it every day, and even then... 

A lot of people your vet sees, are not conscious of calcium/phosphorus ratios, Muscle-Meat: Organ Meat, and so on and so forth. So yes, you are going to have some Raw-fed dogs that are not getting what they require. 

But a raw-fed dog is also susceptible to diseases, both hereditary and non-hereditary, and we shouldn't just chalk it up to this fad diet that these people are giving these days. The dog can have lupis or some other auto-immune disease, some of which the symptoms may have cleared up because you are introducing less yeast, etc. But which might have never been an issue except for a compromised immune system. The dog is still indicating an issue, by the dry crusty nose. I have a pup out there with lupis, and the owner's complaint is the dry crusty nose, and this is why I suggest testing for it. It isn't all that common.


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## TreenaHope (Feb 4, 2017)

Update / Clarification
I realized today that the bleeding was coming from a dry crack on the outside right nostril. It bled a bit today but this time I made him be still so I could really get a good look... so he was not having nosebleeds per say but bleeding from a dry crack.
I had not been giving omega 3's regularly .. I have shemp-oil but was not giving it regularly. It was suggested to me that he needs more omega 3 oil since he will not eat fish. 
He has been showing NO signs of ill health other than a dry and clear crusty nose. No discharge , yellow/green or any other color. No fever or eye or ear involvement.
I am not in support of giving antibiotics to "see what happens" if he is not showing any signs of an infection.
I am not anti vaccines and heartworm meds .. I am just trying to understand what is absolutely necessary and what is overkill and stressing to his immune system.
I'm not sure if the vet knew what prey model is ... evinced by the fact that at one point he commented about adding supplements when "home cooking food". I gave up trying to explain because he was so clearly opposed. In fact he didn't even ask me specifics about the diet but tried to send me home with a synthetic supplement of b vitamins and iron, calcium and magnesium etc which I think could have potentially caused damage since my boy already gets the right ratio or muscle organ and bone. 
Did I mention when I booked the appointment the day before.. the receptionist took it upon herself to give me a lecture about how most people doing prey model don't know what they are doing and the "dangers" of chicken ... salmonilla etc and made it clear the the hospital "absolutely does not support this kind of diet". I am not exagerating ... her tone was scolding and condescending.
So forgive me if I am feeling a little f***ing fed up. 
For the first time ever at the vets Egan was not terrified. He was even calm enough to stretch out on the floor while the vet and I were talking. He was more relaxed and happy to engage with the staff...provided they were not trying to do procedures. He still needs to be knocked out for that. 
But do you think that the vet could concede that maybe , just maybe there was something positive to this ???
This was the dog that a year and a half ago was so anxious and stressed and miserable all the time ... even just at home .. that I thought putting him down may be the only option. He is not perfect .. he is still an over reactor , like if someone knocks on the door..He still hates other dogs, vets and storms.. but for the most part he is now brighter and calmer . His ears are up , his tail wags and he is just ....happy and enjoying home life for the first time.


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## TreenaHope (Feb 4, 2017)

additional :
I do realize bloodwork is a great tool. Maybe it was the way it was presented as a way to "make sure he was getting what he needed and his organs were working properly because of his diet"
rather than a diagnostic tool to figure out if his nose was a symptom of anything else.


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## TreenaHope (Feb 4, 2017)

Does anyone know any Ottawa vets who are open to raw diets or at least know enough about them to work together with you ? Thanks


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## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

Then as far as his nose goes I need to point out that it gets alot better when I fill up the bathtub ( which he will drink from rather than his bowl) and again say this has been going on for a year but only clear dishcharge.

What is his water bowl made from? If it's plastic he could be reacting to the plastic ...maybe.

Everything About Dog Allergies: Plastic Allergies in Dogs


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Sorry, I can't help you with the vet, recommendation. I am definitely in the 'find a new vet' camp. 

You are a wonderful advocate for your dog. Best of luck to you.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

this is exactly what crossed my mind 
"Scarier is that the vet forced vaccines on a dog who may not be healthy. Vaccines state for use in healthy animals. This dog is not currently healthy and if the problems he has are caused by an autoimmune issue than the vet may have just done great harm. "

muskeg said 
" but to believe that gluten or kibble/vaccines/modern medicine is the root cause of all evil is when it goes too far"

let's see real food vs food-like substances --- 
look to see how people live in the blue zone areas!

gsdsar "There are no scientific, peer reviewed research on the benefits of Raw fed dogs. "

why would there be -- there is no way to corner the market - it is all about money --- 
the longest running experiment in the history of the world is called Nature .
Unlike the WHO Nature doesn't write or promote unsupported re

experience and observation -
Australian Natural Vet quote
"t was not until just over 30 years ago in Australia that the first commercial cooked dog and cat foods were released onto the market….and with that, began the slow and insidious decline in health of modern day dogs and cats. The average veterinarian today spends more than half his or her working day treating the epidemic of skin diseases, allergies, arthritis, teeth and gum problems, ear infections, anal gland impactions, urinary tract diseases and a huge range of degenerative diseases and cancers previously only thought to occur in man.
Dr Syme, along with a growing body of vets, breeders, and every day dog and cat owners, and a wealth of scientific evidence, believes that it is the practice of feeding cooked and processed pet foods, especially meat products, that has resulted in the dramatic decline in health of modern dogs and cats."

Get a copy of Pottinger's Cats -- read it . https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1102537.Pottenger_s_Cats

no one is going to gain health by adopting the SAD , standard american diet , or super sizing fast food , fast food? fast life -- . I have yet to experience one single dog who miraculously gained health by switching from a species appropriate diet to kibble.

this " they will be compared to what is considered "normal" for dry fed dogs. "

but kibble fed dogs result's are only normal to kibble fed dogs. BUN will be different on meat fed dogs.

Added a new book to my shelves . Author Dr Ian Billinghurst -- "Pointing the Bone at Cancer" .
This will join the dozen or more books I have on this subject - titles include The Secret History on the War on Cancer 
(ever wonder why the war will never be won?) and "Beating Cancer with Nutrition" . 

Billinghurst says that the carbohydrate based processed pet "food" actively promote degeneration and disease.
That is on page 20 - there are another 541 to read .
Chapter 48 tackles the modern 20th century pandemic of degenerative disease , thanks to industrial fake foods, carbohydrates and poor quality , low level protein. 

Possible reasons for cracking dry bleeding nose 

- allergic to feeding bowl , plastic ? use ceramic or stainless steel
-contact or inhaled chemicals from cleaning products -- ammonia (Lysol) or bleaches 
- check for some irritant that has entered nasal cavity
- check that he isn't inhaling talcum powder - cosmetics --- , garden supplies - even diatomaceous earth - drugs/recreational drugs 
-- the water in the bath tub provides a large surface area from which chlorine can dissipate - maybe contributes to the problem
- have a physical examination of the nasal cavity to determine whether you have a fungal problem - aspergillosis 
or a growth , polyp or tumor

once you know what you are dealing with then you can choose your therapy , the best of the best - integrative.

Billinghurst supports Targeted Nutritional Therapy. TNT


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It can also be lupis.

http://www.petwave.com/Dogs/Health/Lupus/Symptoms.aspx


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

What in the world is the blue zone?

What is a food like substance? Confused. I'm not feeding my dogs soylent green... 

I'm fine with switching vets but it's a mistake to forgo modern medicine in favor of diet. I'm alive today because of antibiotics, and modern medicine. There is a time and place for diet and a time when we need to take advantage of modern medicine, and use common sense.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

so he was not having nosebleeds per say but bleeding from a dry crack.

oh okay this information must have come in as I was writing my post .

there several nose balms --- humectants such as natural raw honey which you can mix with coconut oil (high lauric acid)
or with glycerine 

rosehip oil (any health food shop - if yu can't find it I can custom shop for you only reimburse my cost)
this absorbs quickly.

pure aloe vera gel . very soothing

will pm you


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## duenorth (Apr 25, 2003)

TreenaHope said:


> Does anyone know any Ottawa vets who are open to raw diets or at least know enough about them to work together with you ? Thanks


Here's a list of holistic vets that practice integrative medicine. It looks like there is one in Kemptville and Carleton Place. A little out of the way but maybe you could call them and they could suggest someone in Ottawa:

http://www.civtedu.org/ontario/


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Muskeg said:


> What in the world is the blue zone?
> 
> What is a food like substance? Confused. I'm not feeding my dogs soylent green...
> 
> I'm fine with switching vets but it's a mistake to forgo modern medicine in favor of diet. I'm alive today because of antibiotics, and modern medicine. There is a time and place for diet and a time when we need to take advantage of modern medicine, and use common sense.


lol -- blue zones are identified areas where people , by way of diet and environment enjoy longer , healthier lives . https://www.bluezones.com/2015/04/t...althiest-people-9-questions-for-dan-buettner/ 

food-like substances - are FAKE food , synthetic, gmo, isolates , adulterated , hydrogenated .....

of course there is a time for the medical arts -- which are not an exact science but an applied science 
the misuses of antibiotics has got us in a precarious situation with so many resistant strains --- 

anti biotics were breakthrough miracles - life savers from deadly infections --- now with the abuse of antibiotics , we are in a post antibiotic age where a minor scrape could possible kill us -

medicine is not a singular protocol - there is standard western which excells at diagnostics, there is TCM , there is ancient Ayurvedic --- all have a role .

diet is the foundation of health -- so what was it that Hippocrates said?

wasn't it "let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food" - only he said it in Greek


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

duenorth said:


> Here's a list of holistic vets that practice integrative medicine. It looks like there is one in Kemptville and Carleton Place. A little out of the way but maybe you could call them and they could suggest someone in Ottawa:
> 
> http://www.civtedu.org/ontario/


thanks for doing this . I was going to consult with my Vet friend and see who was available in the Ottawa area.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

You might google snow-nose too, I guess a lot of breeds suffer from dry cracked noses in the winter time.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Honestly I can understand why the vet would say they don't support raw diet. There are just too many people out there who dk it and can't do it right. They won't learn how to do it the right either. 

That said the humidifier sounds like a great idea, we've got a few of them in our house! Hopefully you find out what's up and it's an easy fix. Glad that you've seen an improvement in your dog!


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

He has a runny nose. But not mucous. Clear. His nose is dry and cracked. Nose runs, dog licks.
I would rub some coconut oil on it and follow up with Carmpacks suggestions. Even Vit. E oil on it after the CO (CO absorbs very well if you can distract before can lick off)


Other things to consider that may help AND is related to dry nose is Zinc deficiency and B3 - both can be found in raw organic pumpkin seeds - also good for intestinal parasites. Beef liver (or calves liver is best for zinc and B3)


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

she does have zinc / pumpkin seeds in the feed-sentials

I did recommend 8 compound vitamin E on the nose and on the food 

I'd be curious to see what the "prey model" diet included .


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

wondering what was happening here .
any updates?


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

There may not be scientific research specifically on dogs on raw diets, but there is plenty of research comparing dogs and wolves and their similarities that verify to me that a dog's anatomy is nearly identical to a wolf. That to me means that dogs are meant to eat the diet of a carnivore, raw and all.

Vets are often paid to sell you on a brand of kibble, usually they keep a stock of it and it makes them some money to sell it.

What kind of online reviews does this clinic have? I'd definitely go somewhere else, do some online research and call a few places and ask about the things that are important to you.

I stayed with a bad vet too long, ended up with a cat who had a poorly repaired jaw and his teeth GROUND DOWN with roots exposed. I haven't got the money to waste on poorly done procedures and pointless testing.


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