# Do genetics trump training?



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

For the purpose of this thread, leave out the most extreme dogs with bad nerves. 

I'm interested in the ones that fall somwhere between extremes of bad nerves and extreme aggression.

Which is most likely to succeed. A dog with solid nerves and a mediocre trainer or a good trainer with a somewhat nervous dog.

Genetics vs training.


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I think I have seen novice trainers do best with a good dog. They may not train all the behaviors to exacting points but with a good dog can get predictable performance.

A good trainer can also get far with a genetically challenged dog, depending on where they are exhibiting and the conditions. But, at any given time the dog can experience something that tasks it genetic ability to cope and the dog will 
be revealed.

Just my thinking on it.


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Succeed in what? It sounds like a training/competition question, but you put it in the breeding section......:thinking:


----------



## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

I'm incline to agree with Samba.
I've seen both and in my opinion; 
The dog with the novice trainer may show errors on the novice's training side of things. He may not sit perfectly straight or something like that. While the nervous dog with a good trainer can't help but to eventually show a bit of his own nerve. Even if it is ever so slight.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Chris Wild said:


> Succeed in what? It sounds like a training/competition question, but you put it in the breeding section......:thinking:


Yeah succeed at what? Day to day I'll take the sound dog with the novice handler any time. As far as actual competition, well a great handler with a pooper of a dog can still take the podium.

I don't think genetics vs. training is mutually exclusive or should be. You shouldn't just rely on one or the other. They should complement each other. I try to get dogs, genetically, that I believe will fit the style of training and competition I'm aiming for with that dog. It makes training easy.


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

When it comes to the dogs performance competition or family member, breeding and genetics matter.

I have a GSD not bred with great nerves or work ethic. Though she has earned high in trial....pressure of something can undo it to varying degrees. She is a rescue and she often reminds me how much breeding matters. Now, most people think she an exemplary dog. This is why it is important as to what knowledge and understanding breeding is based on.


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Chris Wild said:


> Succeed in what? It sounds like a training/competition question, but you put it in the breeding section......:thinking:


Succeed in any sport or working endeavor. Or even as a family companion.

Since genetics are part of breeding and training has a section as do sports. I didn't know where to put it. Feel free to move it to an appropriate section.

I don't think the intention of the thread is that hard to figure out.. The values of genetics vs training. Of course you need some of both.


----------



## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Are you asking about nature .vs. nurture? Nurturing is a form of training in that it teaches the dog about its environment: whether to be trusting or not; whether to be skeptical of everything or not. Just the nurture part of a dog's life can 'train' it to act a certain way and a solid dog could be 'trained' to think of the world as a bad place, while a weak-nerved dog could be 'trained' to think of the world as full of good.
I have a dog that is more on the weak-nerved side but because of the way she was nurtured she is very trainable. I guess I am asking: where does nurturing end and training begin?


----------



## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

I'd take good dog and novice handler any day...the novice handler can always learn more. The great trainer can only bring so much out of the weak dog. You can train, train, train, but when put under stress, the dog will always default back to it's weak genetics. The good dog will default back on its training.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

To me nurture and training are the same. Nurture/training and then genetics. The way I see it, genetics will define where along a "spectrum" of any given behavior/trait/drive a dog could possibly fall, but nurture and training will pin-point more specifically where along the spectrum defined by genetics that the dog will actually fall. I don't believe you can truly train or nurture a dog to be something outside of its genetics.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Training can help a weak dog become a better dog, but it can not change who the dog is genetically. Very bad training and abuse can ruin an exceptional dog, but it can not change the genetics of the dog. Give that exceptional dog to a great handler and many times the real dog can often shine through even after the abuse where as the weak dog would never be able to recover. 

Most top handlers, btw, don't bother with weak dogs. They know that eventually the pressures of high competition will start to take its toll on that dog.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

For breeding genetics TRUMPS training.


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> For breeding genetics TRUMPS training.


Understood. Does it trump training in Sport or family companion?

I guess breeding was not the place for this thread.

The thread was based on another where I was wondering if PSA was a better test of nerve than schutzhund or other sports. Several members said that a dog could be trained with enough repetition to overcome somewhat weak nerves. Not talking about a (basket case of nerves).

I was a little surprised by that so was looking for more views on genetics vs training. Genetics are a result of breeding which is how it wound up in the breeding section. If it belongs somewhere else please move it. 

Or people can go back to talking about Penn State.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Jack's Dad said:


> The thread was based on another where I was wondering if PSA was a better test of nerve than schutzhund or other sports. Several members said that a dog could be trained with enough repetition to overcome somewhat weak nerves. Not talking about a (basket case of nerves).


I think this really depends on how one approaches the training. If "test" means earning a title or getting the highest points, then yes the lesser dog genetically can still pass with flying colors with a good trainer.

As far as what I personally, as an owner-trainer but not a breeder and not really a competitor, am looking for in a dog, the SchH trial routines alone are an incomplete picture for me. Training is where the strengths and weaknesses of the dog are exposed and dealt with and the majority of the training is not SchH routines or anything you'd ever see in a SchH routine (protection in a warehouse, protection with muzzle, protection on a bitesuit, etc). I did my first SchH title on Sunday and honestly the most satisfying aspect for me was that while my dog was not perfect, there were no surprises. We have trained and trained and trained and then trained some more. I knew what we would struggle with, I knew where we would put some other dogs to shame. But, I'm not a breeder so I can't really weigh in on SchH vs. PSA titles and breeding decisions...


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

For a companion, training can do a lot to cover up bad genetics. As I said, though, for competition weak nerves will eventually start taking their toll on the dog's performance. A good handler with a lot of perseverance can probably get a weak dog through the titling process, but the issues will start to show in the performance especially if the dog is really pressured (either due to the training or the trials).


----------



## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Genetics will trump training every time.


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

I'll try this a different way.

My dog Jack came from Adler Stein. He has the best nerves of any dog I have ever had regardless of breed. I am an amateur as far as training goes but everything I have done with him was easy. I thank his breeder for that.
His nerves were her creation. Training him was easy.

Can problems be trained around? Sure. Can you give a weak nerved GSD good nerve. I think not. That doesn't make dogs with less than stellar nerves bad dogs. I just think it makes whatever you do with them more difficult.
If you are an amateur like me that can be the difference between a succesful (whatever kind of dog) and one that could remain a challenge.

I have a new puppy so I still don't know about her. So far so good. If she has half the good nerve that Jack has I'll be happy.


----------



## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Dogs are what they are when they are born. And you can either promote or discourage their behaviors. 

A slightly nervy puppy can become a pretty darn sound adult dog if it raised with a proactive breeder, continued socialization and exposure with it's owner, and training that best matches and understands the personality of the dog. It may show difficulty on it's first encounter of something but will recover well on the second or third time because in recognizing some nerve activity in the dog the people handling the dog have provided numerous experiences so the dog has learned recovery. Personally this careful socialization and exposure, coupled with utilizing the dog's drive and bidability is something that I see many Malinois folks use in the raising of their dogs. 

You hear many trainers talk about tapping into a dog's aggression or nerve. Many many good dogs have these things inside them and a skilled trainer/helper can teach a dog to use them, but the dog doesn't necessarily exhibit those characteristics until pushed. And then we get into the whole concept of thresholds. 

Somewhere along the way I think we got to thinking that nerve is a bad thing. I don't think this is always the case. What is nerve? I've always thought of it as the strength of the threshold and the degree of responding to a stimulus. A very nervy dog would react quickly and violently to a stimulus, while a not nervy dog would be almost dead to it. I've seen dogs that were so "strong nerved" that it took serious and sometimes ugly pressure to convince them that fighting was even necessary. Personally I think a little suspicion, a little nervousness, makes for a more aware and alert dog. Its like anything else. Balance is necessary.


----------



## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

I am pretty convinced that genetics will play out to be the limiting factor in how well your dog succeeds at anything. Unless the raw materials are present, you cannot make even the most crude sculpture, no matter how skilled the artisan.

At least that's what I tell myself as I prepare to spend yet another $500 on the third round of private training to help Niko get over his fear reactions to strangers and other dogs.


----------



## ladyfreckles (Nov 10, 2011)

In my experience with horses, it was always nurture. I saw some great horses who were deformed because of bad, novice trainers who didn't know what they were doing. One of the horses used to have an almost C type curve downward in his spine from collapsing his back under the saddle. The trainer never taught him proper posture. Because of this he was in great pain all the time. Within four months we rehabilitated him, straightened up his back, built strong core posture, and he was jumping 4' fences and no longer skittish at all. He had been a great horse to begin with but was ruined by a stupid guy with a big back yard who thought he knew how to train.

The best animals can be ruined by poor trainers. The worst animals will always be somewhat improved, though they may not be able to compete with the best animals paired with great trainers.

During my apprenticeship, I was taught that we have to learn to work with the little "quirks" the animal has (behavioral issues, problems, etc) and the animal's personality and incorporate that into the training. When a trainer does that, they can work with the animal to progress at a speed the animal can handle. Basically, no animal is perfect (no matter how many champions are in the breeding line, problems will arise) and any good trainer can realize this and help the animal improve. 

I feel this applies to dogs, too. If you are lucky enough to have both a great trainer and a great dog then yes, your dog will top others. However if you put a great dog with a mediocre trainer than any "mediocre" dog with a great trainer will top it. 

Hope that made sense.


----------



## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

JKlatsky said:


> Dogs are what they are when they are born. And you can either promote or discourage their behaviors.
> 
> A slightly nervy puppy can become a pretty darn sound adult dog if it raised with a proactive breeder, continued socialization and exposure with it's owner, and training that best matches and understands the personality of the dog. It may show difficulty on it's first encounter of something but will recover well on the second or third time because in recognizing some nerve activity in the dog the people handling the dog have provided numerous experiences so the dog has learned recovery. Personally this careful socialization and exposure, coupled with utilizing the dog's drive and bidability is something that I see many Malinois folks use in the raising of their dogs.
> 
> ...


This sums up my thoughts on it much more eloquently than I ever could have...

Deeply nervous dogs will always be a problem, but a dog with a nervy edge can be worked with and in fact can in fact make the dog more "real" than a dog that thinks its all a game.


----------



## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

ladyfreckles said:


> In my experience with horses, it was always nurture. I saw some great horses who were deformed because of bad, novice trainers who didn't know what they were doing. One of the horses used to have an almost C type curve downward in his spine from collapsing his back under the saddle. The trainer never taught him proper posture. Because of this he was in great pain all the time. Within four months we rehabilitated him, straightened up his back, built strong core posture, and he was jumping 4' fences and no longer skittish at all. He had been a great horse to begin with but was ruined by a stupid guy with a big back yard who thought he knew how to train.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

What Lisa said on page two!!!!


----------



## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Andaka said:


> Genetics will trump training every time.





JKlastsky said:


> Dogs are what they are when they are born.


 
These. ^

When a dog is stressed it will revert to it's base behaviors - the ones it was born with.

All the training and conditioning in the world cannot *completely* overcome the dogs true nature.

.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I realized I should have said for "competition and work........" in my posts. In the world of working dogs genetics will always trump training. You can not make a dog something it was not genetically designed to be.


----------

