# Does bitework make a dog less safe to be around?



## CactusWren

I'm not sure if "bitework" is even the right word. For context, Jupiter is 8.5 months, is finishing up Obedience 3, and I am looking for an activity for him. I'm looking at obedience, agility, and also maybe something with bitework. I have no need at all of protection; so the bitework would just be for sport, exercise, and fun. 

Trainers have told me that the bitework-trained dogs are actually better controlled and less likely to bite than otherwise, but then I've also heard stories to the opposite effect. 

I'm interested in training Jupiter so he listens to me in the "real world," not just in the kitchen or training room when I have treats, or when I have his prong collar on and can muscle him around. 

Is there any kind of consensus about the biting issue?


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## car2ner

it depends on the trainer. Some people train bitework and have no idea what they are doing. Someone who is working toward a sport title with a good helper/ decoy can do a lot to help your dog with confidence and self control. All dogs know how to bite. Bite work helps them gain the control to stop on command and to look to you to see if it is a biting situation. 

A good club will want to try your puppy first. Not all dogs enjoy it. My big-boy loves bitework. My gal-dog wasn't interested in tussling with strangers (she might now that she is older and more confident but we've changed sports). If you are interested you should visit the club first to watch. Also they will expect you to work towards a title, starting with the BH. 

Also remember that your dog is still very young. Our guys don't really reach full maturity until 2 or 3 years old, so keep working obedience games. If you keep having fun with your dog and working as a team and using fair consistent consequences for foolishness you will end up with a great pal in a year or two.


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## lhczth

SchH/IPO/IGP is all about obedience. All dogs know how to bite. We teach control, when it is allowed, and when it isn't.


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## Fodder

...all of the above said, CORRECT training on a dog with the CORRECT temperament and foundation, should not make a dog less safe to be around.


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## mycobraracr

As others have said. It all depends on the dog and the training. Proper training shouldn't change who the dog is. All these dogs do bite work and are pretty serious in their work. One of the was even handled by an eight year old girl both in OB and Pro

28468579_936756269825535_594297490760634325_n by Jeremy Friedman, on Flickr
21232115_843526862481810_1941519359673941971_n by Jeremy Friedman, on Flickr
image4 by Jeremy Friedman, on Flickr
image3 by Jeremy Friedman, on Flickr
31543101_10214362082238556_3204617095459373056_n by Jeremy Friedman, on Flickr
Kimber-boys by Jeremy Friedman, on Flickr

https://www.facebook.com/t17workingdogs/videos/1007532142747947/


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## Sabis mom

mycobraracr said:


> As others have said. It all depends on the dog and the training. Proper training shouldn't change who the dog is. All these dogs do bite work and are pretty serious in their work. *One of the was even handled by an eight year old girl both in OB and Pro*


And they looked fabulous together!
All of those dogs are a credit to their breeder. 

The problem is not the bite work , it's that every schmuck in the world thinks they can make their dogs tough, and every Joe with a dog thinks it should reproduce.
One of the reasons I let no one handle my dogs but me. Shadow is soft and timid, prone to fits of hysteria. Snake quick and never bluffs. Only a fool would encourage a dog like that to bite, but I cannot count the number of idiots who have taunted and pushed and provoked her. All in the name of toughening her up and teaching her to be a "real" dog. Because apparently she's a fake one.
Every time we excuse irresponsible breeding, every time we want "just a pet", every time we tolerate the "too hot" for a pet home we add to the erosion.
The bite work does not make the dogs less safe to be around. We do.


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## CactusWren

Thanks everyone for the responses! I do have a ten-year old, so I certainly wouldn't want to encourage Jupiter to be more bitey or aggressive. From what I can tell, he is neither fearful nor aggressive, but he isn't a Golden Retriever, either. But he's just 8 months and I'm a GSD newbie.


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## astrovan2487

There's too many variables to really answer that question. Depends mostly on the dog, as well as the training. Having a bad training program with a not so confident dog could be a recipe for disaster. 
With IPO there is such a focus on protection being on the field, a routine, same stuff all the time, that I believe most decent clear headed dogs can easily make the connection that ok we are on the field and we are doing protection, and that guy with the stick and sleeve is the bad guy. 
Most people that do IPO aren't looking to train a dog for personal protection, myself included, so you wouldn't be alone in just wanting to train for the sport of it. 
The sport is all about control and precision, to an obsessive extent. 
The amount of work and dedication it takes to train a dog for IPO I do believe that the dog is much more controlled than most other dogs out there. 
That being said I think that anyone who wants to train a dog in bite work needs to be serious about keeping up with training. We have a much higher need for responsibility to control our dogs as if something did happen, no matter the situation, it's likely the bite work training will be brought up against the dog.


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## Jax08

CactusWren said:


> Thanks everyone for the responses! I do have a ten-year old, so I certainly wouldn't want to encourage Jupiter to be more bitey or aggressive. From what I can tell, he is neither fearful nor aggressive, but he isn't a Golden Retriever, either. But he's just 8 months and I'm a GSD newbie.



What they learn on the field does not change their temperament. So many pictures of my friends with their little kids and big IPO dogs. I can hand my IPO3 dog off to any child and he will work with them, play ball with them, etc.

If your dog is solid then you should not have a problem.


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## Saco

It could- if your dog is unstable and/or the training is done improperly.

For some dogs who want to bite anyway, training or not, controlled bitework and confidence building along with obedience and control can help, not hurt. But with those dogs I'd be taking precautions anyway- bitework or not.

For a stable well bred dog, evaluated and started by an experienced trainer, shouldn't be a problem. Plenty of family dogs do IPG. Most not at the absolute top levels but lots of reasons for that (IPG takes time, so do kids, something usually has to give). IPG is mostly about precision and control- and that includes the protection portion. 

Be very careful to chose a good training group or trainer and go from there.


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## Jax08

*** igp


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## Thecowboysgirl

There are tons of other super fun dog sports that in my experience are more accessible. I'd have to drive a minimum of 2 hrs in either direction to find a working dog group but there are 4 or 5 different choices of kennel clubs and non kennel clubs offering competition obedience classes, agility, barn hunt, AKC tracking and dock diving to name a few no more than an hr away. And I live literally in the middle of nowhere so you might have way better resources

You can get real world obedience in an AKC focused obedience class too.


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## David Winners

Same dog.

There are too many variables to give a simple answer. In general, the temperament of the dog will determine its reaction to stuff. Training will find tune that response.


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## cliffson1

The bitework training doesn’t make the dog dangerous, the temperament/stability of the dog makes it dangerous regardless of whether it has training or not. Jmo


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## car2ner

David, those two photos are great. Really spells out what is possible with a good dog.


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## CactusWren

Jupiter has never shown any aggression as far as I can tell. Landshark puppy stuff, he had in spades. He also has developed a nice tolerance of other dogs that seems to have improved when we started going to the GSD club and doing obedience with 10 other GSDs. Just the other day, I sat in on a bitework training session and there were 6 black GSD puppies, one of them barking his head off at Jupiter. Jupiter just sat there watching him, seemingly not feeling threatened at all.


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## wm97

I used to be an insurance adjuster who paid claims on dog bites. There are lots of insurance companies that will cancel your insurance if you have a GSD. If you have one trained in bite work, and they actually bite someone, that will probably count against you in any civil case. 

They will ask a logical question -- if you didn't intend your dog to bite, why did you give it bite training? Likewise with every type of aggressive dog training.


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## CactusWren

wm97 said:


> I used to be an insurance adjuster who paid claims on dog bites. There are lots of insurance companies that will cancel your insurance if you have a GSD. If you have one trained in bite work, and they actually bite someone, that will probably count against you in any civil case.
> 
> They will ask a logical question -- if you didn't intend your dog to bite, why did you give it bite training? Likewise with every type of aggressive dog training.


That makes sense. I wonder if it has any ramifications here in Arizona, which has strict liability. As the owner, you are legally responsible for any dog bite that occurs, without having to prove negligence.


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## wm97

CactusWren said:


> That makes sense. I wonder if it has any ramifications here in Arizona, which has strict liability. As the owner, you are legally responsible for any dog bite that occurs, without having to prove negligence.


My guess would be that it might have some effect on punitive damages, if any. Also, insurance companies keep records of such things and you could wind up with some note on the record that you have a GSD (very bad) trained in aggression. Lots of companies are just flat denying insurance to GSD owners these days. 

I don't think I would put any family dog through any aggression training. Every GSD I have ever had has been naturally overprotective, anyway. Anyone who tried to harm me in their presence would deeply regret it. If anything, my problem has been to try make them calm down. I can't imagine why bite or protection training would be useful unless you were planning on launching the dog against someone before they become an immediate physical threat. That, of course, is assault with a deadly weapon in all but very limited circumstances.

But then, I view most of the fancy training to be wasted on family dogs. I could teach my dog to dance, too. Why? Do a lot of work so I could feel cool that I have a dancing dog? My dogs' highest and best purpose is Active Teddy Bear. That doesn't take a lot of training.


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## Sabis mom

wm97 said:


> My guess would be that it might have some effect on punitive damages, if any. Also, insurance companies keep records of such things and you could wind up with some note on the record that you have a GSD (very bad) trained in aggression. Lots of companies are just flat denying insurance to GSD owners these days.
> 
> I don't think I would put any family dog through any aggression training. Every GSD I have ever had has been naturally overprotective, anyway. Anyone who tried to harm me in their presence would deeply regret it. If anything, my problem has been to try make them calm down. I can't imagine why bite or protection training would be useful unless you were planning on launching the dog against someone before they become an immediate physical threat. That, of course, is assault with a deadly weapon in all but very limited circumstances.
> 
> But then, I view most of the fancy training to be wasted on family dogs. I could teach my dog to dance, too. Why? Do a lot of work so I could feel cool that I have a dancing dog? My dogs' highest and best purpose is Active Teddy Bear. That doesn't take a lot of training.


I'm curious why you keep referring to it as aggression training? All dogs are capable of biting and training is about control, ei: making your dogs calm down.

I also know that in some states, Montana springs to mind, if you are on private property uninvited and get bitten you have no recourse. Likewise if you provoke the dog, like by threatening it's owner, or if you are bitten during the commission of a crime or while engaging in a criminal act you also have no claim.
In Canada the laws are different. In Saskatchewan, when I lived there, if you are on private property whether invited or uninvited and are bitten by a dog that resides on that property you have no case. Most provinces protect dogs from provocation that results in a bite and most provinces side with property owners in the case of trespass or uninvited persons.


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## wolfy dog

It ruined my dog in the past. I posted his story somewhere else recently.


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## CactusWren

Sabis mom said:


> I also know that in some states, Montana springs to mind, if you are on private property uninvited and get bitten you have no recourse.


I happened to ask my wife about this tonight (she was a personal injury lawyer for 20 years and litigated her share of dog bites). She said that here in Arizona, if someone is trespassing and they get bit, they're out of luck. More fun facts: if someone steals your dog and it bites someone, you're not considered the owner at that point and the person who stole it is liable (a tangled web, no?).


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## car2ner

CactusWren said:


> I happened to ask my wife about this tonight (she was a personal injury lawyer for 20 years and litigated her share of dog bites). She said that here in Arizona, if someone is trespassing and they get bit, they're out of luck. More fun facts: if someone steals your dog and it bites someone, you're not considered the owner at that point and the person who stole it is liable (a tangled web, no?).


In my old IPO/ IGP club one of the members would be an expert in court cases. She was no lawyer but could testify to the dog's temperament and training. 
I listen to my county's animal control cases, when they podcast. You can learn many things that way. In one case where a person was invited onto the property and got bit, they never asked about the dog's training. Training or lack of was not the issue. In another case, dogs were trained to hunt pigs, got loose and tore up another's property. Again, training was not a deciding factor. It was the dogs' behavior and the fact that they were "at large" that the law covered. 

Anything that helps your dog become calm and confident to follow your directions is a good thing. That can be any number of sports besides bite work.


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## Steve Strom

There's nothing else the phrase "no training is better then bad training" applies to more then protection or bitework. While you don't change a dogs temperament, you can tap into things you wouldn't ever have to worry about and end up with things you don't want. If you don't have access to a trainer/helper you can verify what exactly he's done and accomplished, its not worth it to me.


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## CactusWren

Steve Strom said:


> There's nothing else the phrase "no training is better then bad training" applies to more then protection or bitework. While you don't change a dogs temperament, you can tap into things you wouldn't ever have to worry about and end up with things you don't want. If you don't have access to a trainer/helper you can verify what exactly he's done and accomplished, its not worth it to me.


That does make sense. Speaking of, does anyone know Shane Carter of Phoenix, Arizona? In hanging out with him and doing initial obedience lessons, he's appeared whip-smart to me. I don't see a lot of online info about him, but my trainer has trained with him, and when I dropped in his class, two of the other students were also dog trainers. But the bitework world is very distant from my own, so I don't know how to evaluate... 

Feel free to PM if one wants to be private.


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## Muskeg

Does bite work make a dog more dangerous? It can if you are training a dog who is nervy, high defense, low threshold, and uncontrolled. ME has a video on how some dogs should never be bitework trained. He makes some good points.


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## wm97

Sabis mom said:


> I'm curious why you keep referring to it as aggression training? All dogs are capable of biting and training is about control, ei: making your dogs calm down.


Because biting is very closely related to aggression. Biting pretty much doesn't occur without it. 



> I also know that in some states, Montana springs to mind, if you are on private property uninvited and get bitten you have no recourse.


That depends on what you mean by "invited". Is the meter reader "invited"? How about the kid who knew the dog and walked into the yard -- as he always did -- whose face was ripped apart when the dog leaped up to greet him and snagged him with a tooth? I settled a claim on that one, exactly. Everybody even agreed that the dog was not angry and did not intend any harm. We still paid the claim.



> Likewise if you provoke the dog, like by threatening it's owner, or if you are bitten during the commission of a crime or while engaging in a criminal act you also have no claim.


If you provoked any of my GSDs, or looked like a real threat to a family member, you would see that they did not need bite training. You, however, would need a quick change of underwear.



> In Canada the laws are different. In Saskatchewan, when I lived there, if you are on private property whether invited or uninvited and are bitten by a dog that resides on that property you have no case. Most provinces protect dogs from provocation that results in a bite and most provinces side with property owners in the case of trespass or uninvited persons.


So why spend all that time to train the dog in something that the typical family dog never needs in the first place?


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## Steve Strom

If I was concerned about insurance, one thing I wouldn't do is post wild claims about what my dogs do to bad guys. Your dog nips a kid and you've been bragging about what man stoppers they are, I can picture that going real well.


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## wolfy dog

In some news casts it looks like the professional K9s are not very obedient in letting go like the well-performing IPO contestants. Is that true? I am not into this.


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## astrovan2487

Every. Single. Part of Schutzhund is about extreme control, focus, and precision. The dog shows perfect obedience and it is rewarded with being able to chase and bite. That fancy focused heeling all the “experts” harp on for being useless, yeah thats all about extreme precision and focus as well and there's a whole heck of a lot of work that goes into it. 

I thought it was dangerous and dumb too when I didn’t know anything, I sure was wrong. It’s really an amazing thing to see a good Schutzhund dog, the ability of the dog to switch between extreme focus and obedience and explosive bite work is what got me hooked on dog training. That balance is really a beautiful thing if you understand what goes into it. 

In a world where most people spend their free time in front of a screen dog sport people are an odd mentality. Don’t think I’ve seen so many passionate and determined people outside of boot camp. They do it because of the bond you get and for the fun of it. Sure there’s bad trainers who ruin dogs and egomaniacs in the sport, but this is not the majority.


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## wm97

Steve Strom said:


> If I was concerned about insurance, one thing I wouldn't do is post wild claims about what my dogs do to bad guys. Your dog nips a kid and you've been bragging about what man stoppers they are, I can picture that going real well.


My GSDs have all been well over 100 pounds, one at almost 170, so it's no big secret. They have all been dogs that get frequent "Holy S**t!" just walking them down the street.

And I live in the mountains on 44 acres that you would have a hard time finding, so I don't run into a lot of kids. Thanks for your concern.


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## wm97

astrovan2487 said:


> Every. Single. Part of Schutzhund is about extreme control, focus, and precision. The dog shows perfect obedience and it is rewarded with being able to chase and bite. That fancy focused heeling all the “experts” harp on for being useless, yeah thats all about extreme precision and focus as well and there's a whole heck of a lot of work that goes into it.
> 
> I thought it was dangerous and dumb too when I didn’t know anything, I sure was wrong. It’s really an amazing thing to see a good Schutzhund dog, the ability of the dog to switch between extreme focus and obedience and explosive bite work is what got me hooked on dog training. That balance is really a beautiful thing if you understand what goes into it.
> 
> In a world where most people spend their free time in front of a screen dog sport people are an odd mentality. Don’t think I’ve seen so many passionate and determined people outside of boot camp. They do it because of the bond you get and for the fun of it. Sure there’s bad trainers who ruin dogs and egomaniacs in the sport, but this is not the majority.


What does a Schutzhund dog have that any typical family dog doesn't already have but really needs? 

You know, something that is worth all that effort to get it -- assuming your dog would even do it in the first place. Something besides telling your friends you have a Schutzhund dog.


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## Jchrest

wm97 said:


> astrovan2487 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Every. Single. Part of Schutzhund is about extreme control, focus, and precision. The dog shows perfect obedience and it is rewarded with being able to chase and bite. That fancy focused heeling all the “experts” harp on for being useless, yeah thats all about extreme precision and focus as well and there's a whole heck of a lot of work that goes into it.
> 
> I thought it was dangerous and dumb too when I didn’t know anything, I sure was wrong. It’s really an amazing thing to see a good Schutzhund dog, the ability of the dog to switch between extreme focus and obedience and explosive bite work is what got me hooked on dog training. That balance is really a beautiful thing if you understand what goes into it.
> 
> In a world where most people spend their free time in front of a screen dog sport people are an odd mentality. Don’t think I’ve seen so many passionate and determined people outside of boot camp. They do it because of the bond you get and for the fun of it. Sure there’s bad trainers who ruin dogs and egomaniacs in the sport, but this is not the majority.
> 
> 
> 
> What does a Schutzhund dog have that any typical family dog doesn't already have but really needs?
> 
> You know, something that is worth all that effort to get it -- assuming your dog would even do it in the first place. Something besides telling your friends you have a Schutzhund dog.
Click to expand...

It’s called personal enjoyment. You know, that weird thing people do that makes them feel all warm and happy and good inside? And makes them want to continue to get better and better at it, for themselves. 

And if your GSD’s are that big, and aren’t massively overweight, it’s not brag worthy. You didn’t train them to be outside breed standards, they just are. Now someone who puts their heart and soul into a sport, and gets the kind of focus, determination, and obedience doing Sch, now THAT is brag worthy. 

Btw, I don’t participate in any dog sport, but I watch it on TV, because it’s amazing to see those dogs worked to their full potential.


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## car2ner

Originally Schutzhund was a breed test. The idea that the ones that excelled would go on to breed. As a sport it is a way to spend time working with dogs and hanging out with dog people. If you have a dog with the drive it is a good way to satisfy their natural desire to hunt and chase, etc. With a good club and training director you can learn a lot about good dog training that bleeds over into good pet manners when you take your buddy out in public. 

Our big-boy didn't get past the BH but just getting to that level and helping other club members we got a wealth of knowledge and skill we would not have otherwise. We still use those skills just playing with our dogs. My gal-dog, who decided that she had no interest in tackling full grown men (I think we introduced her to it at the wrong time) still got trained to do the OB portion and the tracking portion. For fetch and tug, we use some of those skills with family (simple stuff, not full blown suits and whips).


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## wm97

car2ner said:


> Originally Schutzhund was a breed test. The idea that the ones that excelled would go on to breed. As a sport it is a way to spend time working with dogs and hanging out with dog people. If you have a dog with the drive it is a good way to satisfy their natural desire to hunt and chase, etc. With a good club and training director you can learn a lot about good dog training that bleeds over into good pet manners when you take your buddy out in public.
> 
> Our big-boy didn't get past the BH but just getting to that level and helping other club members we got a wealth of knowledge and skill we would not have otherwise. We still use those skills just playing with our dogs. My gal-dog, who decided that she had no interest in tackling full grown men (I think we introduced her to it at the wrong time) still got trained to do the OB portion and the tracking portion. For fetch and tug, we use some of those skills with family (simple stuff, not full blown suits and whips).


" As a sport it is a way to spend time working with dogs and hanging out with dog people."

I am still not getting how that would be actually useful with any typical family dogs. I think you summed it up in the sentence above.


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## car2ner

wm97 said:


> " As a sport it is a way to spend time working with dogs and hanging out with dog people."
> 
> I am still not getting how that would be actually useful with any typical family dogs. I think you summed it up in the sentence above.


The skills my family learned while working toward the BH are skills that any family dog should be capable of. It goes past just teaching a dog to sit, or down or come. It is about focus, engagement, team work, enjoying activities together. All stuff that goes along with having GSDs for family pets. Sure, you could do this on your own but having the support and knowledge base of a good club and mentors was invaluable.


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## wm97

Perhaps I should explain what would be my biggest priorities in training for a GSD family dog. 

First, can you teach them not to shed?

If you can't do that, then can you teach them to only shed outside?

If any Schutzhund class can tackle my biggest priorities, I will join right away.


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## wm97

car2ner said:


> The skills my family learned while working toward the BH are skills that any family dog should be capable of. It goes past just teaching a dog to sit, or down or come. It is about focus, engagement, team work, enjoying activities together. All stuff that goes along with having GSDs for family pets. Sure, you could do this on your own but having the support and knowledge base of a good club and mentors was invaluable.


Like what skills that I really need that they don't already have? As I said, if you can teach them when and where to shed, that would be the best.


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## car2ner

wm97 said:


> Perhaps I should explain what would be my biggest priorities in training for a GSD family dog.
> 
> First, can you teach them not to shed?
> 
> If you can't do that, then can you teach them to only shed outside?
> 
> If any Schutzhund class can tackle my biggest priorities, I will join right away.



If you are outdoors training your dog, guess where they aren't shedding. Indoors..:grin2:


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## wm97

car2ner said:


> If you are outdoors training your dog, guess where they aren't shedding. Indoors..:grin2:


I guess your trick is that you never come inside and sleep. I haven't mastered that one, yet.


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## astrovan2487

wm97: Wow. Why do peoples kids play sports? Its very dangerous and may never really use it so according to you it's useless. For that matter why even leave the house. Please continue bragging about an obese dog, I am both impressed and scared, you win, my dog is only 55lbs. 

If you provoked any of my GSDs, or looked like a real threat to a family member, you would see that they did not need bite training. You, however, would need a quick change of underwear.

Please stop that is pretty funny. So how do you know the dog will actually act on a threat? It dosent take much to run off most untrained dogs, even trained ones might run. A few months ago a loose nasty looking 100 lb (since we are being macho bragging about numbers) pit pull tried to attack my dog while at the park, all 5 ft 100 lbs of me ran straight at the dog and it tucked tail and ran. Meanwhile my "worthless" Schutzhund dog who was tracking never reacted, because I put her in a down, and then finished her job like nothing happened. Boy I should never have wasted all that time on that useless obedience. 

Is that you Jonrob?


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## tim_s_adams

wm97 said:


> What does a Schutzhund dog have that any typical family dog doesn't already have but really needs?
> 
> You know, something that is worth all that effort to get it -- assuming your dog would even do it in the first place. Something besides telling your friends you have a Schutzhund dog.


Control under pressure? Not saying one can't teach their family dog this on their own...but how many do? Have you? How did you go about that exactly?


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## wm97

astrovan2487 said:


> wm97: Wow. Why do peoples kids play sports? Its very dangerous and may never really use it so according to you it's useless. For that matter why even leave the house. Please continue bragging about an obese dog, I am both impressed and scared, you win, my dog is only 55lbs.


Confirming what I said earlier. The main benefit seems to be to the owners and their recreation. Sorry if that offends you. Sorry if you are deeply devoted to the idea that this is somehow necessary for family dogs, but it isn't.



> Please stop that is pretty funny. So how do you know the dog will actually act on a threat? It dosent take much to run off most untrained dogs, even trained ones might run.


Because my last one drew blood on two people who tried to enter the house without permission and one of them only escaped because he was able to put a chair between him and the dog long enough to get out. Nobody who knew him doubted it. The current two have similar reactions to any perceived threats. Any time you want to place a bet on that, you let me know. Sign the liability waiver first. 



> A few months ago a loose nasty looking 100 lb (since we are being macho bragging about numbers) pit pull tried to attack my dog while at the park, all 5 ft 100 lbs of me ran straight at the dog and it tucked tail and ran. Meanwhile my "worthless" Schutzhund dog who was tracking never reacted, because I put her in a down, and then finished her job like nothing happened. Boy I should never have wasted all that time on that useless obedience.


Good for you. I don't know how any of that applies to any of my dogs, but good for you. I had an incident where the strange dog was actually chewing on my dog's leg and he didn't react. He just looked at the other dog like "Are you stupid?" No training. I did, of course, inform the dog's owner that this was a really dangerous thing to allow his dog to do. 



> Is that you Jonrob?


I have no clue what you are talking about. I suspect you don't, either.



> Please continue bragging about an obese dog,


And that right there confirms that you don't have a clue what you are talking about. Just live in the little world you have created for yourself. Everyone who doesn't agree with you is evil or seriously lacking in some way. I am sure of it.


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## wm97

tim_s_adams said:


> Control under pressure? Not saying one can't teach their family dog this on their own...but how many do? Have you? How did you go about that exactly?


OK. Like what pressure that any typical family dog would normally encounter? 

I train my dogs to do what is actually useful to me -- move out of my way, get off my lap, don't bite, poop outside, etc.


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## astrovan2487

"I don't know how any of that applies to any of my dogs, but good for you."
You are on here saying how worthless any dog training is aside from exactly what you need for your dogs in your house, it was an example to make a point. 

"Sorry if that offends you. Sorry if you are deeply devoted to the idea that this is somehow necessary for family dogs, but it isn't"
When did myself or anyone else on here say schutzhund training was completely necessary for family dogs? It isn't, but it sure wouldn't hurt for most to have the obedience training. You are missing many points. And you are being very rude to me and others on this thread for no reason. This thread was a question about if bite work makes a dog any more dangerous than one without it. You made this about your needs and your dogs from the get go. This was not a thread asking "why is bite work necessary for a family dog"


----------



## wm97

astrovan2487 said:


> "I don't know how any of that applies to any of my dogs, but good for you."
> You are on here saying how worthless any dog training is aside from exactly what you need for your dogs in your house, it was an example to make a point.


And the point was all about the recreational benefit to humans. 



> "Sorry if that offends you. Sorry if you are deeply devoted to the idea that this is somehow necessary for family dogs, but it isn't"
> When did myself or anyone else on here say schutzhund training was completely necessary for family dogs? It isn't, but it sure wouldn't hurt for most to have the obedience training. You are missing many points. And you are being very rude to me and others on this thread for no reason. This thread was a question about if bite work makes a dog any more dangerous than one without it. You made this about your needs and your dogs from the get go. This was not a thread asking "why is bite work necessary for a family dog"


Well, the first question with anything like that is "Why are you doing it in the first place?" If you don't have a reason to do it, then you don't have any concerns about whether it makes them more dangerous.

It costs a lot of money, and takes a lot of time, so who are you doing it for? If your goal is to get more recreation for yourself, that's fine, just be honest about it. That way you can make more intelligent decisions about what you really want to do and not get caught up in some fad that takes more time, work, and money than was really worth the non-recreational results. Like, you know, you might discover that you could get nearly all the same benefits by taking the dog for a walk without all the extra stuff.


----------



## Jchrest

Just stop engaging, and he will hide back under his bridge for awhile.


----------



## Sabis mom

wm97 said:


> My GSDs have all been well over 100 pounds, one at almost 170, so it's no big secret. They have all been dogs that get frequent "Holy S**t!" just walking them down the street.
> 
> And I live in the mountains on 44 acres that you would have a hard time finding, so I don't run into a lot of kids. Thanks for your concern.


Since a GSD should weigh in somewhere around the 60-80lb range I don't know what you have but they aren't German Shepherds. As a working dog something that huge would be less then useful. I certainly would not want to be the handler, I was sort of depressed about needing to carry my 85lb female every time we recertified or having to lift her should the need arise while we were working. I found it grossly unfair that all the men I worked with had smaller dogs! I certainly would not want to worry about keeping a dog of 170lbs sound through a working career, and this is a working breed. 

As far as training goes, you stated earlier that you were hard pressed to calm your dogs down under threat(pressure). My trained dog never lost her cool, and most of the people she dealt with commented that they never saw it coming. There was no barking, lunging or carrying on. She simply did the job/game that I taught her. She was initially brought to training because I recognized that she was highly defensive/protective and I wished to ensure control. 
Even my male washout never carried on. If he saw a threat he responded but with the calm deliberate actions of a clear headed dog. Not the raging of an insecure dog.
Proper training of any kind is about control. An obedient dog is safe.


----------



## CactusWren

If all we wanted is a family dog who can cuddle up with the kids and bark at the doorbell, we would all have Goldens. I think the people who have GSDs are maybe a bit like people who have Jeeps or sports cars or motorcycles--willing to put up with a bit of extra risk for fun or other benefits. 

As far as why I'm interested in bite sports, I'm interested because they're there and my dog needs something to do. I'm looking into Obedience, Rally, Scentwork, and Agility. My current instructor referred me to a guy who does bite stuff and is just a step up in terms of level in what I've been doing. What I've been doing so far hasn't been working--Jupiter is a nice dog, but rather disobedient. He's harmless on leash but still doesn't walk as nicely as I'd like. He chases and corrects puppies at the dog park. He doesn't follow my commands unless I have food or there are zero other distractions.

The instructor that does bite stuff started by advising me on engagement and simplifying and condensing our 30-something commands that he doesn't do to like 8 that he will do. It all made perfect sense to me and is helping me be a better trainer. I may not end up training him to bite at all, but I do want to take him to the next level, where he can be in public and behave and be under my control.


----------



## Steve Strom

I've been around dogs that weigh 170lbs. Us city folk just don't claim they're German Shepherds though. 

https://www.akc.org/dog-breeds/mastiff/


----------



## astrovan2487

Wm97”My GSDs have all been well over 100 pounds, one at almost 170, so it's no big secret”
Thread: How tall is your GSD
“29.5", 110 pounds, 14 month old male.”

What the heck are you feeding your dog that he gained 60 lbs in less than 2 months?


----------



## Steve Strom

wm97 said:


> OK. Like what pressure that any typical family dog would normally encounter?
> 
> I train my dogs to do what is actually useful to me -- move out of my way, get off my lap, don't bite, poop outside, etc.


So, maybe stick to the things you know, like pooping and shedding in the house, and don't bother with all the criticism and judgemental opinions about things you don't? It helps keep the peace.


----------



## Steve Strom

astrovan2487 said:


> Wm97”My GSDs have all been well over 100 pounds, one at almost 170, so it's no big secret”
> Thread: How tall is your GSD
> “29.5", 110 pounds, 14 month old male.”
> 
> What the heck are you feeding your dog that he gained 60 lbs in less than 2 months?


Fillet of a fenny snake, 
In the caldron boil and bake; 
Eye of newt, and toe of frog, 
Wool of bat, and tongue of dog, 
Adder's fork, and blind-worm's sting, 
Lizard's leg, and owlet's wing,— 
For a charm of powerful trouble, 
Like a ****-broth boil and bubble. 
ALL. Double, double toil and trouble; 
Fire burn, and caldron bubble.


----------



## tim_s_adams

wm97 said:


> OK. Like what pressure that any typical family dog would normally encounter?
> 
> I train my dogs to do what is actually useful to me -- move out of my way, get off my lap, don't bite, poop outside, etc.


It is precisely for those one-off, abnormal situations that happen where control is MOST important! Pressure is anything that makes a dog less than comfortable. It can be a neighbor suddenly appearing from behind a bush, or a loose dog running through your lawn, or a real, potential threat to your safety. It can be a kid running up the street, or an unexpected delivery. 

And I don't personally participate in any dog sports either. But, I do work on control under pressure with my dog. If you don't see the need, fine...don't teach your dog's anything beyond what you want...it's all good! I have found with my dogs, the more they learn the easier they learn. So necessary or not, training of any kind serves a very real purpose, IMHO!


----------



## wm97

astrovan2487 said:


> Wm97”My GSDs have all been well over 100 pounds, one at almost 170, so it's no big secret”
> Thread: How tall is your GSD
> “29.5", 110 pounds, 14 month old male.”
> 
> What the heck are you feeding your dog that he gained 60 lbs in less than 2 months?


If it's hard to figure out -- different dogs.


----------



## wm97

Steve Strom said:


> So, maybe stick to the things you know, like pooping and shedding in the house, and don't bother with all the criticism and judgemental opinions about things you don't? It helps keep the peace.


Well, I am just the kind of person who is curious and wonders, and I read a lot. So I read a lot of stuff about how Schutzhund, or asserting your dominance, or Ninja Judo, or whatever are needed for having a good family dog, and I wonder how the world got along with dogs before everybody discovered that. Also, I see a lot of training techniques that people rave about as being so great and, as near as I can tell, most of them aren't actually based on any real testable dog psychology. In the medical world, they would be called placebos -- things that seem to produce the right result mostly because that's the result the person wanted to see. 

And, since a lot of these things take a lot of time and work and even cost a lot of money to achieve, people should be honest with themselves about why they are doing it. As you can see, everyone struggles to come up with an answer that is better than "I (the human) like it." That's fine. just don't BS others about the great benefits. Someone might spend some money unwisely thinking they will make Super Family Dog. 

If that upsets people, I have faith that they will get over the trauma of seeing an honest yet differing opinion on the internet by the time they get out of grade school.


----------



## wm97

Steve Strom said:


> Fillet of a fenny snake,
> In the caldron boil and bake;
> Eye of newt, and toe of frog,
> Wool of bat, and tongue of dog,
> Adder's fork, and blind-worm's sting,
> Lizard's leg, and owlet's wing,—
> For a charm of powerful trouble,
> Like a ****-broth boil and bubble.
> ALL. Double, double toil and trouble;
> Fire burn, and caldron bubble.


I live in the mountains so they do most of that themselves. I carry out about two dead lizards a week. 

But don't rely on that diet to make them big. It was other stuff.


----------



## Steve Strom

wm97 said:


> Well, I am just the kind of person who is curious and wonders, and I read a lot. So I read a lot of stuff about how Schutzhund, or asserting your dominance, or Ninja Judo, or whatever are needed for having a good family dog, and I wonder how the world got along with dogs before everybody discovered that. Also, I see a lot of training techniques that people rave about as being so great and, as near as I can tell, most of them aren't actually based on any real testable dog psychology. In the medical world, they would be called placebos -- things that seem to produce the right result mostly because that's the result the person wanted to see.
> 
> And, since a lot of these things take a lot of time and work and even cost a lot of money to achieve, people should be honest with themselves about why they are doing it. As you can see, everyone struggles to come up with an answer that is better than "I (the human) like it." That's fine. just don't BS others about the great benefits. Someone might spend some money unwisely thinking they will make Super Family Dog.
> 
> If that upsets people, I have faith that they will get over the trauma of seeing an honest yet differing opinion on the internet by the time they get out of grade school.


Thats fine, but honest yet differing should be qualified with "From what I've read, but I don't really know"


----------



## wm97

tim_s_adams said:


> It is precisely for those one-off, abnormal situations that happen where control is MOST important! Pressure is anything that makes a dog less than comfortable. It can be a neighbor suddenly appearing from behind a bush, or a loose dog running through your lawn, or a real, potential threat to your safety. It can be a kid running up the street, or an unexpected delivery.
> 
> And I don't personally participate in any dog sports either. But, I do work on control under pressure with my dog. If you don't see the need, fine...don't teach your dog's anything beyond what you want...it's all good! I have found with my dogs, the more they learn the easier they learn. So necessary or not, training of any kind serves a very real purpose, IMHO!


I will give you credit for coming up with the best answer so far other than "The human likes it." But note that you start off by describing it as "abnormal" - not the usual, something that might never happen. If it's all that much work for something that occurs rarely or not at all, that's probably human fun happening. Which is fine. Everyone should just keep that in mind when they sign up for the five thousand dollar dog training class. 

Among other experience, my daughter ran a dog rescue I helped her with for a while. No, never really saw the need.


----------



## wm97

Steve Strom said:


> Thats fine, but honest yet differing should be qualified with "From what I've read, but I don't really know"


Well, I am sure I don't know a lot of things. One of the things I don't know is why it is so hard for people to answer simple, obvious questions about things. And why they get so upset when someone does ask questions. 

That kinda makes me suspect they know even less than I do.


----------



## wm97

Steve Strom said:


> Thats fine, but honest yet differing should be qualified with "From what I've read, but I don't really know"


BTW, did you catch the fact that I asked some straightforward questions and some people here immediately started making personal slurs, saying that I had an obese dog, etc., when in fact, they know nothing at all about me?

How do you feel about that kind of behavior?


----------



## Sabis mom

*Does bitework make a dog less safe to be around?*

This is the question and here is my answer. 
IF you have a German Shepherd Dog that has been bred to conform to the breed standard temperament AND you do the training with a qualified trainer, then no. It will teach you about the dog you own and provide an acceptable outlet for the dogs natural tendencies. It will reveal any weak spots in the dogs makeup and allow you to create contingency plans for handling those in day to day life.
It also potentially gives breeders a look at the dogs they produce and allows them to make adjustments to their breeding programs as needed.


----------



## wm97

Sabis mom said:


> *Does bitework make a dog less safe to be around?*
> 
> This is the question and here is my answer.
> IF you have a German Shepherd Dog that has been bred to conform to the breed standard temperament AND you do the training with a qualified trainer, then no. It will teach you about the dog you own and provide an acceptable outlet for the dogs natural tendencies. It will reveal any weak spots in the dogs makeup and allow you to create contingency plans for handling those in day to day life.
> It also potentially gives breeders a look at the dogs they produce and allows them to make adjustments to their breeding programs as needed.


Again, all of which are benefits to the owner, not the dog, some of which could be handled with daily walks which cost nothing and require no real labor -- just for comparison with other methods of achieving the same results, in case someone is actually shopping for solutions.

But kudos for posting without making a personal slur against someone you don't even know. Thanks.


----------



## Steve Strom

wm97 said:


> BTW, did you catch the fact that I asked some straightforward questions and some people here immediately started making personal slurs, saying that I had an obese dog, etc., when in fact, they know nothing at all about me?
> 
> How do you feel about that kind of behavior?


Maybe I'm wrong, but you're questioning seems to be more a condescending challenge then looking to learn something or just share opinions and experience. The honest truth about the obese comment, I'll guarantee when you say your German Shepherd is 170Lbs, thats probably the least of all the comments people are holding back from.


----------



## Sabis mom

wm97 said:


> Again, all of which are benefits to the owner, not the dog, some of which could be handled with daily walks which cost nothing and require no real labor -- just for comparison with other methods of achieving the same results, in case someone is actually shopping for solutions.
> 
> But kudos for posting without making a personal slur against someone you don't even know. Thanks.


Even the genetic nightmare I own now would not be ok with a daily walk. This is a highly intelligent breed that needs something to do. She isn't off the wall if I miss a day, but even in our current situation we do tracking and training. Informal searches and scent work get tossed in as well. I cannot imagine any GSD being ok with a daily walk. In bad weather we still do at least 6k throughout the day just walking. And she is old with a bad heart.


----------



## Jchrest

Jchrest said:


> wm97 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> astrovan2487 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Every. Single. Part of Schutzhund is about extreme control, focus, and precision. The dog shows perfect obedience and it is rewarded with being able to chase and bite. That fancy focused heeling all the “experts” harp on for being useless, yeah thats all about extreme precision and focus as well and there's a whole heck of a lot of work that goes into it.
> 
> I thought it was dangerous and dumb too when I didn’t know anything, I sure was wrong. It’s really an amazing thing to see a good Schutzhund dog, the ability of the dog to switch between extreme focus and obedience and explosive bite work is what got me hooked on dog training. That balance is really a beautiful thing if you understand what goes into it.
> 
> In a world where most people spend their free time in front of a screen dog sport people are an odd mentality. Don’t think I’ve seen so many passionate and determined people outside of boot camp. They do it because of the bond you get and for the fun of it. Sure there’s bad trainers who ruin dogs and egomaniacs in the sport, but this is not the majority.
> 
> 
> 
> What does a Schutzhund dog have that any typical family dog doesn't already have but really needs?
> 
> You know, something that is worth all that effort to get it -- assuming your dog would even do it in the first place. Something besides telling your friends you have a Schutzhund dog.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It’s called personal enjoyment. You know, that weird thing people do that makes them feel all warm and happy and good inside? And makes them want to continue to get better and better at it, for themselves.
> 
> And if your GSD’s are that big, and aren’t massively overweight, it’s not brag worthy. You didn’t train them to be outside breed standards, they just are. Now someone who puts their heart and soul into a sport, and gets the kind of focus, determination, and obedience doing Sch with their GSD, now THAT is brag worthy.
> 
> Btw, I don’t participate in any dog sport, but I watch it on TV, because it’s amazing to see those dogs worked to their full potential.
Click to expand...

I stated personal reasons right here, and also stated that even though I don’t participate myself, I do watch, because it’s wonderful to see a dog work to their full potential. I also didn’t make any personal slurs against you in this thread reply either. I stated a fact. Dogs breed out of standard are nothing to brag about, but the focus, drive, and determination in the dogs that do work Sch, are something to brag about. 

Mine are all in the 55-65 pound range. Within breed standards. That’s not a slur, that’s a fact.


----------



## Steve Strom

wm97 said:


> Again, all of which are benefits to the owner, not the dog, some of which could be handled with daily walks which cost nothing and require no real labor -- just for comparison with other methods of achieving the same results, in case someone is actually shopping for solutions.
> 
> But kudos for posting without making a personal slur against someone you don't even know. Thanks.


German Shepherds for the most part are bred to be genetically capable of certain things. Opening all that up to them may not be absolutely necessary, but the end results you see in them is worth it. In human terms, they like it too.


----------



## Jax08

I watched several dogs, titled and working on being titled, crawl all over children, hang with people and be handled by strangers this weekend. A good temperament is a good temperament.


----------



## CactusWren

wm97 said:


> BTW, did you catch the fact that I asked some straightforward questions and some people here immediately started making personal slurs, saying that I had an obese dog, etc., when in fact, they know nothing at all about me?
> 
> How do you feel about that kind of behavior?


wm97, your communication style is passive aggressive. There are far more respectful ways to state an opinion than sneaking them into repetitive questions.


----------



## Jchrest

CactusWren said:


> wm97 said:
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, did you catch the fact that I asked some straightforward questions and some people here immediately started making personal slurs, saying that I had an obese dog, etc., when in fact, they know nothing at all about me?
> 
> How do you feel about that kind of behavior?
> 
> 
> 
> I didn’t say your dog was obese, I said if he WASN’T Obese, he was certainly not in breed standards. You take everything people say not only personally, but defensively. And many many members have given you clear cut and decisive answers, they just weren’t the answers you wanted to hear.
Click to expand...


----------



## Jax08

@CactusWren - where do you live it? If it's anywhere in the PA/NY area, you are more than welcome at any time to come meet our dogs when we train. These dogs live with families and with children. I don't know why people who have zero real knowledge insist on inserting opinions in these questions. But the proof can easily be seen on and off the field


----------



## Jenny720

My first dog was police trained he never over reacted or attacked anyone. He had very bad arthritis and I was very careful with my toddlers.
The last few days before his last he lived till 12 -my son who was one stepped on paw on accident. The dog was in great pain and he did put his mouth on his foot but gently as to grab his foot to stop it. My son did not even notice. He was mentally sound even in great pain till his death. Like other said the dog has to be truly solid and you really have to trust who the trainer is and just not out for profit. We were going to buy a protection trained adult until we found the price of them and I have kids. I opted for what I have now very and very happy and feel safe enough and neither are protection trained. I remember a recent story of a ups person brutally attacked by gsds they did an incredible amount of damage the owner had no control. I have no idea of their background in training or if the dogs could be controlled but again it’s very important in the stability, bideabity , trainability of the dog. 

Take jax’s Offer and check out the dogs. Have your dog evaluated by recommended people. There are also so many dog sports out there you just have to see what you like and what fits.


----------



## CactusWren

Jax08 said:


> @CactusWren - where do you live it? If it's anywhere in the PA/NY area, you are more than welcome at any time to come meet our dogs when we train. These dogs live with families and with children. I don't know why people who have zero real knowledge insist on inserting opinions in these questions. But the proof can easily be seen on and off the field


Aw, thanks for the offer. I am an Eagles fan, but I'm way over here in Tempe, Arizona. 

I will certainly observe dogs who are participating to make my own evaluations. At my first session (we just did obedience, but others were doing bite stuff), the lady with the six black German shepherd pups and the eight year old who was hanging out with us didn't seem worried, so that's a plus.


----------



## Tennessee

Lol

One day when I retire I’m gonna move out to the wilderness with my shepherds the size of small horses and spend my days trolling dog forums. 

That’s the dream anyways....


----------



## Tennessee

wolfy dog said:


> In some news casts it looks like the professional K9s are not very obedient in letting go like the well-performing IPO contestants. Is that true? I am not into this.


Yes. 

Gross overview. Schutzhund is a breed test, how the dog performs the task is just as important as accomplishing the task itself. It’s designed to speak to the dogs temperament & working ability. Clear headed/calm in the bite is required to pass. 

K9s just need to get the job done 100% of the time no matter the circumstances. PDs tend to err on the side of caution with working ability/intensity being of primary importance, when lives are on the line.


----------



## Jax08

@Tennessee wins the Internet today :rofl:


----------



## mycobraracr

Well this was a fun thread. 
@CactusWren, I hope you got your answer. Don't listen to people with no experience. Shoot, I just took Kimber to work with me and a client dog. Off leash with my client and their kids. Their daughter even played fetch with Kimber. Next week Kimber and I are doing another road trip to work with different clubs, trainers and such. It's a fun good outlet with your dog. Working with your dog creates a bond that can't be described.


----------



## David Winners

Tennessee said:


> wolfy dog said:
> 
> 
> 
> In some news casts it looks like the professional K9s are not very obedient in letting go like the well-performing IPO contestants. Is that true? I am not into this.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes.
> 
> Gross overview. Schutzhund is a breed test, how the dog performs the task is just as important as accomplishing the task itself. It’s designed to speak to the dogs temperament & working ability. Clear headed/calm in the bite is required to pass.
> 
> K9s just need to get the job done 100% of the time no matter the circumstances. PDs tend to err on the side of caution with working ability/intensity being of primary importance, when lives are on the line.
Click to expand...

Well put!

I'd like to add that a patrol dog is in a real fight, possibly to the death. While the pressure applied to a sport dog is intense, it's nothing compared to what a dog can go through during a real apprehension. 

It's important to be able to call a dog off a bite before it gets to the target. A solid out is not important. You're not going to out the dog before you get hands on anyways.

I don't want the dog thinking about an out. I certainly don't want the dog worried about a correction. I want their head in the fight 100% once they are engaged.

Back to "Why train bite work with your dog."

It's fun. It's fun for us humans. It's fun for the dogs. A mindless walk pales in comparison to a good training session of any kind, and bite sports are very satisfying for the dog. They get to do what they are built to do. A dog's anatomy is designed to catch and kill stuff. 

It's definitely fun for the dog (or they shouldn't be doing it).


----------



## CactusWren

mycobraracr said:


> Well this was a fun thread.
> 
> @CactusWren, I hope you got your answer. Don't listen to people with no experience. Shoot, I just took Kimber to work with me and a client dog. Off leash with my client and their kids. Their daughter even played fetch with Kimber. Next week Kimber and I are doing another road trip to work with different clubs, trainers and such. It's a fun good outlet with your dog. Working with your dog creates a bond that can't be described.


Yeah, I appreciate all the serious answers. 

The feedback has been very helpful.


----------



## Lillydog

OP where are you? Too busy on 8chan to rejoin the thread?
Seriously, why do people who know nothing post just to argue? So you don’t like Schutzhund, so what. I could ride your 170 pound pony— I mean dog —-to the training field. 
I love this forum and have learned so much from it! I respect you guys so much!


----------



## Kazel

Lillydog said:


> OP where are you? Too busy on 8chan to rejoin the thread?
> Seriously, why do people who know nothing post just to argue? So you don’t like Schutzhund, so what. I could ride your 170 pound pony— I mean dog —-to the training field.
> I love this forum and have learned so much from it! I respect you guys so much!


OP was Cactus Wren, the other person just stirred up the pot. 

It is an interesting topic though. I have no experience with bite sports but I wonder what it would do to your liability if your dog did bite somebody or there was an injury and a person claims they were bit. 

Aren't they technically considered lethal weapons or weapons of some sort if trained to bite? I remember reading something about how service dogs trained in bite sports/protection training could possibly be refused public access if somebody wanted to deny them because they technically become weapons.


----------



## Jenny720

I heard that in sar work as well. If the dog is a stable dog. I don’t see how that would matter doing service work. How would they know. I have no experience in this sport or protection training but I know my dog was police trained and also the previous owners did schutzhund with the dog. With his police training I felt he was a weapon because he was capable and skilled but not out of control one. I also felt I probably could of did sar with the dog as he was so well rounded. I wonder if it would depend on state, the dog.


----------



## CactusWren

Kazel said:


> OP was Cactus Wren, the other person just stirred up the pot.
> 
> It is an interesting topic though. I have no experience with bite sports but I wonder what it would do to your liability if your dog did bite somebody or there was an injury and a person claims they were bit.


My wife was a personal injury lawyer who has litigated dog bites. I can tell you what she said, which would apply here in Arizona.

In this state, you have complete responsibility for the dog, so if it bites someone--you're liable. That's whether it's Aunt Mimi's Chihuahua or a chained-up junkyard GSD. So it doesn't matter if it's trained or not--if the dog bites, the plaintiff does _not_ have to prove negligence on your part. As the owner, you're liable.

The gray area is if the dog was provoked. This is where the facts come into play and the always entertaining and sometimes infuriating judgment of the jury (assuming it gets to trial, which these things rarely do). So if the jury finds out the dog is trained to bite, and the dog bites, possibly that could play into their decision in a vague and unpredictable way. Given I live in Arizona, where you can carry a gun under your coat just because you're a human, who knows how that would play out in court.


----------



## Steve Strom

Just a real broad, general statement about helper work. The helper reacts to the dog, so watching good helper work will look very smooth and coordinated between he or she and the dog. The dog will switch between the different drives and the helper will react in a way that rewards the right actions in the dog. It keeps it very clear and appropriate with the dog. Good helper work gives you a wider range of dogs that you can train. You aren't going to make a weaker dog into a power house, but you aren't going to turn them into a nut job either.

One problem I'd worry about with poor training is a constant pumping up of the dog into crazy, and always rewarding crazy. The dogs have to be allowed to show their power, but also settle it all down. There's not a set explanation, but if you get the chance to get up close and watch, its a lot more clear.


----------



## mycobraracr

CactusWren said:


> My wife was a personal injury lawyer who has litigated dog bites. I can tell you what she said, which would apply here in Arizona.
> 
> In this state, you have complete responsibility for the dog, so if it bites someone--you're liable. That's whether it's Aunt Mimi's Chihuahua or a chained-up junkyard GSD. So it doesn't matter if it's trained or not--if the dog bites, the plaintiff does _not_ have to prove negligence on your part. As the owner, you're liable.
> 
> The gray area is if the dog was provoked. This is where the facts come into play and the always entertaining and sometimes infuriating judgment of the jury (assuming it gets to trial, which these things rarely do). So if the jury finds out the dog is trained to bite, and the dog bites, possibly that could play into their decision in a vague and unpredictable way. Given I live in Arizona, where you can carry a gun under your coat just because you're a human, who knows how that would play out in court.



This is the reason I title my dogs. I put CGC's on them. I do obedience only titles, temperament tests, agility, you name it I try and do it. I try to have as much documentation showing my dogs are stable as possible. I look at my dog as my partner. I expect it to protect me. On the flip side, it's my obligation and responsibility to do everything in my power to protect my dog. At the end of the day does it help? I don't really know, but it can't hurt. 
@CactusWren there is a small chance I'll be stopping in the Pheonix area on my road trip. If I do I'll let you know. I'm more than happy to meet up with you. There is also a SchH club in Peoria? I haven't been there since I think late 2011, but there was some nice dogs and good people there.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Kazel said:


> Lillydog said:
> 
> 
> 
> OP where are you? Too busy on 8chan to rejoin the thread?
> Seriously, why do people who know nothing post just to argue? So you don’t like Schutzhund, so what. I could ride your 170 pound pony— I mean dog —-to the training field.
> I love this forum and have learned so much from it! I respect you guys so much!
> 
> 
> 
> OP was Cactus Wren, the other person just stirred up the pot.
> 
> It is an interesting topic though. I have no experience with bite sports but I wonder what it would do to your liability if your dog did bite somebody or there was an injury and a person claims they were bit.
> 
> Aren't they technically considered lethal weapons or weapons of some sort if trained to bite? I remember reading something about how service dogs trained in bite sports/protection training could possibly be refused public access if somebody wanted to deny them because they technically become weapons.
Click to expand...

That is the DOJ's position on it, yes.


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## Bentwings1

There are good points above. The key I think is obedience. If you have your dog follow you around you can teach that there are rewards just around the corner for correct obedience, the dog will respond to you. It’s takes a long time to develop this unless you can do formal
Training everyday. This will give a good recall and solid position commands. Like Stand, sit, and down. 
It took about a year in my last GSD. Like sit in place until I give another command. Everything is based on these attributes. When presented with a very challenging situation you have the helper challenge back. The dog should hold his ground. Then the helper gives a signal to you to release the dog. The exercise is usually very short. A single bite with a minimum of fight is e
nough. The dog gets a win by taking the sleeve around the area showing he is very tough. Then you give an out command. By previous training the dog should come to you with his prize. Depending on how much the drive is, you maybe ready to go home. Good helper work is necessary to give maximum challenge for the dog. The beginner helpers must watch this as it is critical in the beginning. I spent weeks doing this with a very experienced helper. He would question me afterwards about what I saw. Why was the sleevereward given at the precise time? The helper must “read “ the dog and reward just before the dog drops the sleeve by himself. The handler also needs to watch the dog so your command comes before the loses interest.

It’s hard with new people and new dogs. Sometimes you will get only one chance then the dog is put up.
The next day same thing except the helper puts more pressure on the dog. He must be careful here not to over stress the dog. After a number of sessions the helper pushes the dog very hard but again gives the reward at the correct time. The dog should figure out that bringing the sleeve to you for the out command and waiting you you to drop it or take the sleeve. This is a bit of turning point. The dog mow has shown he 
He is not going to get hurt and wants to do it again.

This all sounds easy but it takes concentration on the dog’s mind. He will begin to want to go to the “fight” not back off. Other distractions can be entered to make the dog more intense. And now the fun/work begins. Over time the dog learns he won’t get hurt and he gets to carry the sleeve around and maintain higher level of intensity and confidence. Now he has no plans to back down. The training can progress in an orderly fashion faster, and with greater intensity.

The age requirement have been changed so I don’t know exactly but two years of training on each part of the events before he is able to put it all together. 

My big GSD took 2 1/2 years before we entered a trial. It was three years before scored Schll. Then another year of intense training. We never failed a trial but didn’t score well for several trials. He then went to, police dog training and passed all their certification tests. I wasn’t an officer, so I couldn’t even ride along but he did work on occasion when we we teaching new handlers. At this point the dog didn’t care if another officer had him for the shift. He was committed to his job. He got rewards for time and it just built on him.

Now at home he became the defacto guard for the two kids. He would gather them together when my ex wife yelled at them. He would position himself so that he showed her he was taking care of them. My ex would then yell at me to bring the kids. I call them and my dog would gently nudge them to near me. He would position himself as if we were arresting bad guys. He would sleep with them. Now the kids were taught not to rough house with him. . He was their friend. No tail pulling or ear pinching allowed.

Once he transfers obedience to these exercises the training becomes easier for both of you.

Sorry for the log post but I enjoyed the training and dealing with various dogs. I’m too old now to be working these guys but I like to help,others learn to deal with their dogs. I say most dogs can’t handle this stress. It part of GSD heritage.

I hope you can enjoy the work with your dog.


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## Bentwings1

Well said Steve. I don’t train protection in any fashion now because of the liability. My dog is never off leash except in the training rings.
She does not get protection type rewards or any force correction. Whether she would protect me or not is not going to be tested or shown. She is not a protection dog, a flock guardian. Yes but I haven’t allowed this to be directed at me. I’m the protector. No dog gets close. I did spend 6 days in ICU over a dog issue and one trip to ER. In both cases the offending dog and owner paid the price and had a very bad day. I don’t like being the bad guy but I value my dog and her training.


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## CactusWren

mycobraracr said:


> This is the reason I title my dogs. I put CGC's on them. I do obedience only titles, temperament tests, agility, you name it I try and do it. I try to have as much documentation showing my dogs are stable as possible. I look at my dog as my partner. I expect it to protect me. On the flip side, it's my obligation and responsibility to do everything in my power to protect my dog. At the end of the day does it help? I don't really know, but it can't hurt.
> 
> @CactusWren there is a small chance I'll be stopping in the Pheonix area on my road trip. If I do I'll let you know. I'm more than happy to meet up with you. There is also a SchH club in Peoria? I haven't been there since I think late 2011, but there was some nice dogs and good people there.


Thanks for the info and the offer! Peoria is on the other side of town from me, so I probably wouldn't ever be joining them... unless I get hooked, who knows.


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## Heartandsoul

Is the bark and hold innate in some GSD lines? No training etc? Looks exactly as seen on the training field. Had a one off experience and often wondered about this question.

Also, fwiw, a lot can be learned just by watching/reading and has come in handy, applied with good results speaking from companion only experience.


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## Jax08

My shelter adopted dog did a great bark and hold. I think it can be innate in some dogs. The training we do is so we don't lose points by the dog getting dirty.


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## Steve Strom

Its a guarding behavior so there are dogs that the behavior is natural, like Jax says, the actual positioning comes through the training. What you want to pay attention to is the intent in the dog. Is it a don't you move attitude, or hurry up and throw that attitude. In a routine, both can get you the points, but the first one gets different praise from the judge in the critique.


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## Heartandsoul

Jax08 said:


> My shelter adopted dog did a great bark and hold. I think it can be innate in some dogs. The training we do is so we don't lose points by the dog getting dirty.


Thanks, had forgotten about the training so they don’t get dirty. It was actually a go to out of frustration redirect on me. He had gone off at the door when the mailman came. Happened yrs ago. I don’t fear my boy never have never will but remembering seeing how handlers deal/work with staying quiet (still) during the bark and hold, that’s what I did til he petered out. Reading his eyes, he was just blowing steam, no threat but man o man, my respect for the helpers jumped 10 knotches facing unknown dogs and how they work them. 

Episode ended and we just went about being ourselves. He has some serious lines behind him so I was thinking something leaked out in him.

Edited with more info


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## Jax08

My girl stopped my cousin's wife in the middle of the road with a beautiful bark and hold. I didn't know whether to be proud or introduce her to Jesus. So I did both.


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