# What color is he?



## df1960 (Nov 6, 2009)

What color would you say Hawkeye is?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Black & tan with a bitch stripe coming in


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## df1960 (Nov 6, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> Black & tan with a bitch stripe coming in


 What's a bitch stripe and why is it called that?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

It is the gray you see coming in and I don't know why it was coined that, as males/females both can have it. Common in Showlines.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

The gray stripe behind the shoulders?


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

He looks like a white german shepherd to me. 

Jk... black and tan saddleback w/ the typical bitch stripe. Looks like he's from west german showlines.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

paulag1955 said:


> The gray stripe behind the shoulders?


Yeah, it's very common in showline dogs. Both males and females get it.


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## ElvisP (May 19, 2010)

Kinda looks black and red to me.


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## Klaus13 (May 18, 2010)

The grey stripe behind the shoulders is called that? What is with the white down the undercoat of the top of the back? what does that mean?


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

Lucy Dog said:


> Yeah, it's very common in showline dogs. Both males and females get it.


I think Shasta has one. Is it too soon to tell? She's 13 weeks.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

paulag1955 said:


> I think Shasta has one. Is it too soon to tell? She's 13 weeks.


I don't remember the exact age lucy started to get hers, but it's pretty obvious. They look like little gray hairs mixed in with all the black. The older they get, the more you'll most likely see.

Here's a picture of lucy's. Picture quality isn't great since it was taken with my iphone, but you get the idea. I really need to get myself a good camera.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

So GSD with Showline in their blood have the bitch stripe? Molly has one.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> So GSD with Showline in their blood have the bitch stripe? Molly has one.


Yep - lucy's not all showline, but she has one. I'm not sure if all showlines get them, but it's pretty common.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

I always thought the bitch stripe happened after a male is neutered ... I know this has always been the case with the b/t Hooligans.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

how old was hawkeye the very first time you ever saw him? was he black when he was born? because from these pictures (and the colors could be inaccurate on the internet), he looks as tho he could be a blue. they are not all that much different than black & tans, except their "tan" is kind of carmel-colored, and their ears sometimes have a opalescent quality to them, and if they're right next to a true black and tan you can see that their black is not the blackest of black.



















seraphina is a blue girl...although these pictures are not the best to show her color, they were ones i'd already loaded to photobucket and were handy.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

The "bitch" stripe is very common in dogs without a gene for heavy coverage (and/or the black recessive). Females get them on maturity and male dogs will often get them after blowing coat after being neutered.

You see it more often in the show lines because few of them carry the black recessive/heavy pigmentation genes, but it will show up in black-tan pattern working line dogs as well. (You can't see it on a sable dog, but they don't seem to get it.)


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

I can see where the bitch stripe would be on my sable female. It's not nearly as noticeable as it is on a Black and Tan but having watched her grow from 8 weeks and being able to compare her to her intact brothers...there is one there.

I don't know if you can see it...but that light spot behind her shoulder blades did not come in until maturity and neither of her intact brothers have it.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

We always called it "angel wings." :angel:


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## veeds35 (Mar 15, 2010)

So do males only get them when they are nuetered? Because Bella has that and I just thought maybe she was starting to get a saddle but nope its just a thin light line across her back.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

veeds35 said:


> So do males only get them when they are nuetered? Because Bella has that and I just thought maybe she was starting to get a saddle but nope its just a thin light line across her back.


 
I'd like to see evidence proving that to be true. Doesn't make sense to me. What if you wait, say, 5 years to get your male neutered. Does that mean at 5, he's suddenly going to get a bitch stripe? I find that pretty hard to believe.

I think it's just part of the color of their coat. As the adult coat grows in, so will the bitch stripe. Neutered/spayed or not.


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## will_and_jamie (Jul 8, 2006)

Our Hannah looks just like that with the stripe and all. She's bred from west german show lines.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

what does that mean..."without a gene for heavy coverage"???


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

katieliz said:


> what does that mean..."without a gene for heavy coverage"???


The amount of black pigment on a dog is regulated by several genes; one is the gene for masking, which usually covers the muzzle and top of head, sometimes extends to the back of the neck and saddle. Although the mask genetics are fairly well known, it's a little less well defined when it comes to what makes a saddle deep black versus faded black. The presence of a black recessive "bleeds through" often (although not always), resulting in dogs with "blanket saddles". The presence of a gene or modifier + the black recessive will give a bicolor instead of a blanket saddle.

For illustration, this dog is a blanket saddle:











This is a bicolor with a black recessive:









Notice the toemarks, the tarheels, the black undercarriage, black neck, and distinct black versus tan areas. 

On Jubilee, you can see how she has tan mixed in with the black on her face:









You can see the tan bleeding through on the top of her skull and the tan "necklace" and cheek patches. Also, no toemarks, no tarheels, and tan along her underline.

Then there's her half-sister who is a bicolor with no black recessive (I believe, but I'm not 100% sure yet). 








You can see that where she has tan, it's very clearly tan, not really "bleed through," the dark underside, toemarks, and tarheels.

At any rate, a modifying gene for heavy pigmentation seems to be what regulates the coverage of black and depth of black in the saddle. The other significant factor seems to be hormonal (testosterone) since it is most often seen in bitches and neutered males.

Christine


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

The lighter color mixed in down the back is called ticking. It's more prevalent in females then male.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Lucy Dog said:


> I'd like to see evidence proving that to be true. Doesn't make sense to me. What if you wait, say, 5 years to get your male neutered. Does that mean at 5, he's suddenly going to get a bitch stripe? I find that pretty hard to believe.
> 
> I think it's just part of the color of their coat. As the adult coat grows in, so will the bitch stripe. Neutered/spayed or not.


I had a male who had no tan in his saddle as a young adult dog. He was neutered at age 3 and developed the bitch stripe.

This was him at 2 yrs:










You can see the start of the "bitch stripe" in this picture, at age 4:










Harder to see, but at age 6, you can see the tan behind his withers and on his butt.


















Christine


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## JudynRich (Apr 16, 2010)

This is exactly why I joined this forum...so informative! Our Mia has this coloring, black and tan that almost (but not quite) red...and the bitch line (learned something today!).


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

JudynRich said:


> This is exactly why I joined this forum...so informative! Our Mia has this coloring, black and tan that almost (but not quite) red...and the bitch line (learned something today!).


I did too.lol. Molly may have Show lines in her.lol


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

My German showline dog, Dubya was never neutered and he had a bitch stripe. 

Later I will see if I can post pictures.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

This is my pup's father. It looks like he has a bitch stripe to me, or am I just confused? He is (obviously!) not neutered.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Bitch stripe goes down the spine, not around the neck. Boss doesn't have it from the pics posted...
None of my dogs have it, so can't use an example 
Boss is handsome!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

veeds35 said:


> So do males only get them when they are nuetered? Because Bella has that and I just thought maybe she was starting to get a saddle but nope its just a thin light line across her back.


No, males and females both get them, I'm not even sure females get them more. Honestly, most German show line dogs have them to some extent. There are even VA rated dogs with extremely faded saddles and a lot of "bitch stripe". Nikon doesn't have one and in all of his critiques the judges complement his black pigment. In these lines it's more rare NOT to have one to some extent, and I see mostly show dogs (as in, I am at shows) so these dogs are not spayed or neutered.

most recent pics showing Nikon's back


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

A bitch stripe isn't the same as a faded saddle. On Thorn, the dog who was neutered at 3 years old, after he was neutered (and had shed and regrown his coat), when you ruffled back the hair down his spine, you could see the white/tan/gray ticking--it didn't show up as well in the pictures i showed.

The "shoulder" straps going up vertically behind the shoulders is normal marking on a black/tan patterned dog.

What is becoming more common in the show lines is a fading saddle that actually retreats up the side as well as having the stripe down the back...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

This was Dubya. He had his bitch stripe from early on, and he was never neutered.


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## Hercules (Aug 1, 2010)

DUDE!!!!! My new GSD looks EXACTLY like that and I've been wondering too and it just got answered.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> Bitch stripe goes down the spine, not around the neck. Boss doesn't have it from the pics posted...
> None of my dogs have it, so can't use an example
> Boss is handsome!


Oh, man...I am super confused!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Paula, this thread has a pic of 4 GSD's so you can see the stripe and no stripe:
Do all females get a "bitch stripe" or will they not get it if they are spayed? - German shepherd dog


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> Boss is handsome!


I think he is gorgeous! I'm hoping Shasta takes after her daddy.


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## paulag1955 (Jun 29, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> Paula, this thread has a pic of 4 GSD's so you can see the stripe and no stripe:
> Do all females get a "bitch stripe" or will they not get it if they are spayed? - German shepherd dog


Thanks, I think I've got it now!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ok, this one is Jenna:









It extends all the way down the back, but Dubya's kind of did too. I just cannot find a later picture of him here. Jenna is 4.5 years in this picture.

Funny, but I generally dump photos of the back of the dog like this one -- usually it was a really cool picture that the dog moved just as the camera clicked.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

BlackthornGSD said:


> A bitch stripe isn't the same as a faded saddle.


No, but they often go hand in hand. I can't think of a faded saddle dog I know that doesn't also have a bitch stripe. Many have the bitch stripe but not the faded saddle though.


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## df1960 (Nov 6, 2009)

katieliz said:


> how old was hawkeye the very first time you ever saw him? was he black when he was born? because from these pictures (and the colors could be inaccurate on the internet), he looks as tho he could be a blue. they are not all that much different than black & tans, except their "tan" is kind of carmel-colored, and their ears sometimes have a opalescent quality to them, and if they're right next to a true black and tan you can see that their black is not the blackest of black.
> 
> seraphina is a blue girl...although these pictures are not the best to show her color, they were ones i'd already loaded to photobucket and were handy.


The first time we went to see Hawkeye he was 4 weeks old.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

hard to tell from those pictures, tho there's a steel blue that is pretty dark. he could have a dilute gene i think. he is a cutie, that's for sure!


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

This site has a good basic genetics explanation and also talks about the fading pigmentation:

Color Coat Genetics

Scroll down to the part about the E Series:

Dogs with the ee genotype have the black pigment in their coat fade out by the time they are 2 years old. It doesn’t affect the pigment of the nose or pads. Many people confuse this with a golden sable, the difference is a golden sable dog will have a black tip at the end of its tail an ee dog has a red tip to it’s tail. 

The site also says:

The genes above are the major players in determining coat color in our breed. There are other ones out there, such as a gene that causes the salt and peppering down the backs of black and tan dogs (thought to be caused by a recessive allele). There is another series for spotting.

Christine


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