# Low threshold



## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Can anything be done to help a dog with a low threshold? I know this is a genetic thing, but I'm hoping I can help my dog with this.

I'm a novice handler who's been to countless obedience classes and a behaviourist and seem to be getting nowhere. I'm not the best handler, but I'm not the worst either, this just seems to be a bigger issue than I have experience to deal with.

My dog is a really good girl on her own, great off switch inside, but she tends to get pretty aroused around other dogs. I took her to puppy class, immediately into grade 1, grade 2 (disaster with all the dogs doing off leash recalls). These classes were well controlled. I took her to a behaviourist, I currently have he back in obedience classes. For the most part we manage ok, when the other dogs are on leash and quiet, but the moment any kind of activity happens my dog FREAKS OUT. It happens really fast.

For example, she is the star student at my obedience class, sometimes people ask me why we're there - until we do recalls. The other dogs running back to their owner causes a big scene, my dog is screaming and lunging and it takes her a minute or two to get calmed down again after the action has stopped. She is not unfriendly with other dogs once they have been properly introduced, but she is noisy about it at first, then she gets pretty excited trying to initiate play and whatnot (in other words, she's obnoxious about it). 

I think she's a frustrated greeter, but also at the first sign of any kind of action, she loses it.

This makes the problem a bit difficult for me to correct, because I can't always anticipate when something like this is going to happen out in the real world.

Is there anything I can do? I've worked on this with her since she was a wee pup, but it has not gotten better, so obviously what I'm doing isn't working. 

We tried at first feeding her high value treats to keep her attention on me, but that didn't work. We tried correcting with a pop on the prong and walking her quickly the other way, but that doesn't really work either. 

She is otherwise a really wonderful dog, and I love her dearly, I'm just not sure how I can help her with this, or IF I can help her with it. It makes me sad, because it makes it difficult for her to participate in some activities that she otherwise loves to do. I'd love to get a second dog one day, but not until this is under control. Pack walks are a nightmare with her screaming the entire time and it's really difficult to find anyone who is willing to take the time to help out and go really slowly with her, because they really just want to walk their dogs, not wait around until she calms down, only to take two steps and have to stop again to wait her out.



:help:


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

How old is she?


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Oh sorry, she's a little over a year and a half


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Ok. She is old enough to have some reasonable expectations for improvement. Have you figured out where her distance threshold is? If she is reactive to other dogs, I would find out how close she has to be to trigger her reactivity. Stay just outside that distance, while maintaining engagement then slowly creep closer as you train.


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

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I'm working through with Cruz who also has a pretty low threshold. The advice above is good, but also watch your body language and voice control. Don't react to suddenly, keep a calm commanding voice. It helps with not escalating her reaction higher. I have to be careful during training with the voice more than anything. Also contact could also escalate her reaction. I would find a good confident trainer that can deal with a low threshold dog. I'm on my second trainer. Not all trainers share or teach the same technique, though they may be teaching the same command. So if your not progressing with your current trainer, don't be affraid to look around. Thats what I did. I was lucky enough to come across a trainer who knows GSD's. He has two working shepherds and has helped me alot.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Yes, there are lots of things you can do. You probably already know what many of them are, at least in theory.

I would guess that where you're running into problems is in (1) translating theory to practice; and (2) being _consistent_ about that practice, and moving upward in sufficiently gradual increments that your dog can be successful at each step.

If you're practicing some version of "give the dog a cookie for not reacting," and then switching to prong pops when you're not seeing results from the first method, and not seeing results with that either, then my blind guess is that you're not effectively utilizing either method, let alone both in combination.

It sounds from this post like you probably aren't working your dog under threshold long enough before exposing her to situations that are above what she can successfully handle. Why are you doing "pack walks" with a dog who spends the entire time screaming at the other dogs? What is the goal there?

I realize this isn't a very helpful post and I'm vacillating on whether to even hit "submit" on it or not, but... anyway, yes, there are things you can do, and it is possible to achieve a certain amount of improvement with a dog who's easily over-aroused and/or has little impulse control. How far you can take it depends on you and the dog.

But yes, I know people who have taken their reactive dogs to highly successful careers in various sports. It isn't easy (in fact it's really hard and takes a bunch of work and leads to almost as much whining and frustration as I heap upon my fearful dog) but it's certainly _possible_.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Have you ever tried bringing a tug with you on the pack walks? This worked perfectly for my little screamer. He also does so much better after he's been running around and burns off some of that energy.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Control Unleashed exercises help dogs with reactivity.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Thanks guys.

Merciel, you're right in that I have been given advice on different ways of handling it, so I'm probably not being consistent. I guess the theory was, to try and distract her with food to avoid the outburst, but then correct her when the outburst comes.

When I say pack walks, I mean a couple of times I've tried it and it's been a leashed walk. She's a bit better if she's out in front. I can't even go on a hike with just one other dog without her screaming. I have never tried bringing a tug, that is a good idea, it might be worth a try.

It's difficult to find where her distance is, I think it's quite far, and not sure if it's possible to get further away in a training hall. I will speak to my new instructor and see if they can perhaps warn me before starting recalls with the other dogs in my class (there are only 2 or 3 others) and move them to the far end and see if it helps.

Should I try tugging with her when they are going to do a recall with the other dogs? I have a feeling she'll just spit the tug and still react, but I can try it if you think it's a good idea.

onxy, I'll check out that link, thanks


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

blackshep said:


> I guess the theory was, to try and distract her with food to avoid the outburst, but then correct her when the outburst comes.


It's hard to say without actually seeing a session in action, but I suspect that's very likely to be setting your dog up for failure and worsening your problem, not improving anything.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

work within zones . Excitement levels change with proximity to stimulus . Continue obedience with a sure reliable correct response . Very very slowly increase proximity . Dog has to learn to centre and self control. set up for success ONLY


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

I'll ask the instructor and my classmates if they can try to do recalls with the other dogs at the other end of the hall and I'll stay at the other far end to create more distance and see if it helps. That actually was a problem, one person definitely got too close, but I was talking to the instructor and lost track of where they were, so I will talk to them about it.

So if she does react at that far distance, what am I to do? Ignore it? Pop the prong collar? Pop the prong and walk her away?

I don't think the problem is getting worse, but it's certainly not improving. :/ 

I've pretty much stopped taking her out with other dogs, I haven't done a group walk with her since the summer. She still gets some exposure, but not any real activity that she can participate with other dogs involved. For example, we do scenting classes, she's crated next to other dogs and sees them passing by and she's ok, and she can work on her own with other dogs crated nearby. But I've stopped taking her for hikes with other dogs.

I'm trying to stay in the class, because it's the only way I can work her around other dogs in a controlled environment. Going out on trails is too unpredictable with other people and off leash dogs right now, and I'm trying not to let her world shrink around her.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

If she reacts then you've gotten too close and/or the stimulus is too intense. Personally I would not be starting with running dogs or owners who were actively recalling their dogs (which typically means owners exhibiting a certain amount of movement and excitement). I'd look for a neutral dog at threshold distance _not doing anything_.

I do not train with prong collars and I don't "correct" for reactivity. So if _I_ were running the training protocol then I would accept that display as information that my dog was not able to succeed at that distance and under those circumstances, and I'd work with more distance and fewer challenges until I could succeed at that step. If physical space were an issue (there simply isn't room in the training facility to get farther away) then I might work with barriers and other ways of increasing visual/psychological space before trying the original setup again.

You _can_ punish reactivity and suppress the behavior that way. It's not something that I personally choose to do for a number of reasons, but it works (sometimes). But again, you need to be really clear about what you're doing, why you're doing it, _when_ you're doing it, and how that affects the dog's underlying emotional state. Otherwise there is a real risk of sending a jumble of signals that basically combine to tell your dog that she was right to react to the other dog's presence, because the other dog's presence is a predictor of bad things and emotional agitation.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Would working her dog near a local dog park - NOT IN THE PARK - but using the distance outside the park to allow her to create zones?


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

I live out in the middle of nowhere, so no dog parks nearby (not that I want to go out and train in 2' of snow and -40 lol) it's really difficult for me to stage any dog interactions besides my obedience classes. This is where I'm having my problems and I think this is where I can best start to work on it.

To be fair to the instructors, this was only my 2nd OB class with them, and I did tell them about it, but they hadn't really seen her react (and probably thought I was exaggerating, I've been doing scenting classes with them for a few months now) until that class. The first class she was ok.

The problem isn't that I didn't get too close, but the other person sometimes does. It's really just the recalls that are the worst problem, neutral dogs minding their business are not an issue and she shows good focus when we are doing the rest of the obedience things. Other than asking them to stay further away I'm not sure what to do. 

I think what I will do is ask them to give her more space on the recalls and go from there. Hopefully since it's a small class they will all be good about it.

I'm still not sure what I should do if she end up in a situation where she does react, if I should correct it or not. I think I will give her a pop on the collar and "AHH!" and quickly walk her away from the problem if it does happen.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Does this place offer private lessons? That way you can work on this one issue in a more controlled lower key type of environment?? With the trainer bringing in one or two dogs.. 

Then once you have a better grasp on it, you could go back into the group setting?


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

I'm not sure I didn't ask. This is the place I do my scenting classes and they fit me into a class right before the scenting class, since it's a 45 minute drive for me. I can't realistically do it more than once a week, because I work full time and I have a horse farm I manage at home as well, so weekdays are pretty busy for me.

The class only has 2 other dogs in it as it is, who are good about ignoring my dog. And we go one at a time.

I'm going to see if moving the other dogs further away will work for now before I go changing thing up. My dog is fine doing recalls, it's when the other dogs do it that she acts up. I don't see how changing the dogs will really change how she reacts, since they are not the problem, if that makes sense. I don't think it's about the individual dogs, but the distance, so I'm going to see if we can increase the distance and see how that goes.

She's fine with everything else, so I'll talk to them about changing how we do the recalls to hopefully get her far enough away from the action that she doesn't get all riled up. If that doesn't work, I'll have to figure something else out.

Thanks for all the advice everyone, I think it will be a long road, but hopefully we can make some progress.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Try working on a football field. I got the idea from Lou Castle.

Game Chasing (Crittering)

You can use whatever DS/CC training that fits your program. I like the e-collar, but whatever works for you.

So what Carmen said. I use flags or a football field because it has lines on it that keep me from going too close to the stimulus.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Oh jeeze, ok. I think I'm going to need help with this :/


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I'm trying to understand when she's reacting to the other dogs, and it sounds like: only when they're running their recalls? And otherwise she's fine? Except on pack walks, when she must be in the lead or she'll be very vocal?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

you said ", but she tends to get pretty aroused around other dogs"
" but the moment any kind of activity happens my dog FREAKS OUT"
"she is noisy about it at first, then she gets pretty excited trying to initiate play and whatnot (in other words, she's obnoxious about it). "

puppy socialization ?? 
not uncommon as a result of young pups having a wild and crazy time 
at the dog park ,

about socialization and dog to dog interaction, even the guide dog training manuals state that there be periods where KNOWN dogs , ideally the same age group , are allowed to interact - under supervision , controlled and for BRIEF periods before too much excitement. That way they learn to read each other and learn dog etiquette and also control .

Dog parks are marathon events , owners hoping to take the wind out of the dogs sails. 

In those zones the dog should be focused on YOU , not food , or something to jam in to her mouth , YOU have to be the preferred social contact . You need to quiet her , teach her control of her emotionally charged state . No corrections.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

If she were my dog I would clean this up with an e collar.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> If she were my dog I would clean this up with an e collar.


 With both issues? The recalling of other dogs and the over-reacting/over-stimulating when walking in a group..

Just curious because I don't use e-collars.. Well, not yet anyway.. I have one and I know as my training evolves with my male I may eventually need to go down that road.. but for him it wouldn't be because of being reactive...


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the dog needs to calm and focus . The problem may have been accentuated by the handler , promoted.

e-collar? really --- in this instance LEARNED HELPLESSNESS.

dog needs to learn to function in the environment . Needs to be an active participant.

you don't clean up this behaviour -- you help the animal work through it.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Sorry, wasn't on over the weekend. 

She went to puppy class at 10 weeks of age where she was allowed to interact with the puppies briefly (5 minutes or so?) under supervision. The group was divided in between the more boisterous pups and the more shy ones. She's never been to a dog park, and I have no intention of taking her there, after hearing all the bad stories. She's always reacted to other dogs, first time was at 9 weeks of age, I took her to Bass Pro Shop to socialize her and she saw some dogs about 50' away and barked at them. 

I have gone on 2 group hikes with her, they were leashed walks and I think she just got frustrated and was crying. I haven't gone back on them, since it was obviously more than she could handle.

She objects to dogs who get in her face, I try to protect her from these dogs, but sometimes it's unavoidable, like when people have their dogs off leash and you hear them yelling "It's ok he's friendly!!!" as they are charging over, I try to get in between, but my dog is usually trying to get to the other dog, so it's hard. If they run up to her, she barks loudly at them, but after a minute she wants to play. I think she maybe is unsure about other dogs at first, but once she gets to know them, she is ok, but she tends to play really hard (as GSD's do) and so I don't normally allow her to play with other dogs. 

I get differing opinions on this, some people think I should let her play with other dogs more often, I think letting her play with them will just make her more excited to meet them. 

I can't find any rhyme or reason to the dogs she barks at, in terms of size, male/female etc. I'm guessing it's their body language, she seems to hate bully breeds the most, even when they are very sweet natured dogs and are ignoring her. She will ignore some and fixate on others. When she starts to fixate, I try to walk her a few steps away to get her to focus back on me.

In obedience class, if the dog does a recall too closely she freaks out, lunging and barking. I think because she is behaving herself about 99% of the time in class, people have a false sense of security and let their dogs get too close. It's a new group, so I have to say something to the people in my class to please give her more distance. 

Things like one time I was walking her and there was a lady with a Mastiff who was carrying a Jolly Ball in its mouth while they were walking towards us. They were probably at least 50' away. My dog was fine, but then just as we were passing one another the Mastiff dropped the ball and the lady kicked it, so of course my dog got excited and started to bark. I just gave her a little pop on the collar and told her to leave it and kept walking past. So stuff like that creates a reaction. (I had nowhere to go in that instance it was either move closer to the lady with the Mastiff, keep going the direction I was headed, or go into the Caledonia river lol)

I think an ecollar is a valuable training tool when it's used correctly, but I wouldn't trust myself to time it right, and I also worry that it might make the problem worse.

I think I'll try to just give her as much distance as possible for the recalls, which I think will help. I wasn't sure if I should be correcting the behavior, but maybe what I'll do if it happens is just tell her "let's go" and walk the opposite way.

She's so glued to me when it comes to other people, if they try to take the leash from me and walk her away (to do our recalls) she gets really upset (she's fine if I tell her to sit and wait and hand them the leash though). But then other dogs her focus is totally on them if they get too close. So I have to figure out how to make me more fun than other dogs I guess, I'm just not sure how to do it.

She can otherwise work ok near them, we were doing an exercise where we do figure 8's around some chairs, and this is done pretty close to other dogs and she watches my face the whole time. It's mostly just if there's any running involved, she gets overstimulated.


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