# Opinions on potential older puppy, showline



## rkwjunior (Oct 9, 2014)

Im interested in a certain older showline GSD puppy. He's of high quality German blood lines, both parents are from the vom Fichtenschlag kennel in Germany, he carries pink papers.
Anyway, the seller has sent me some videos and i can't help but notice what seems like excessive arch in his back, or something up with his rear legs, not sure?? I'm Familiar with the angulation of showlines but something seems different than most that i've seen or owned.

"Please refrain from telling me showlines have bad hips and aren't the real GSD's"

How do i post videos?? Here is a picture, but not sure this will tell the tale due to how he's being stacked, videos will show more of what i'm talking about.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

The arch you are referring to is called "roach back". The rear angulation seems normal to me for a showline. 

I am no expert but I have noticed it more in the German showline. it's possible I may notice it more because I really dislike it so perhaps I look for it.


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## Vadermomma (Jan 15, 2015)

I am as far from an expert on angulation and topline but kinda looks bunched up maybe


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## rkwjunior (Oct 9, 2014)

Saphire said:


> The arch you are referring to is called "roach back". The rear angulation seems normal to me for a showline.
> 
> I am no expert but I have noticed it more in the German showline. it's possible I may notice it more because I really dislike it so perhaps I look for it.


I realize that showlines have a "Roach Back" but his seems excessive and wondering if this is excessive to the point were it's a birth defect?

Anyone know how to post a video??


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Not all showlines are roach backed. If you don't like or are not comfortable with this, pass and find another.


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## rkwjunior (Oct 9, 2014)

Saphire said:


> Not all showlines are roach backed. If you don't like or are not comfortable with this, pass and find another.


I'm fine with it as long as its not more than the normal "Roach Back", to the point of a birth defect. that's what i'm trying to determine here. AGAIN.. I realize showlines have a rear angulation.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

I do not think a roached back is normal, desirable or to the breed standard. I consider it a deformity. It does have an impact on the dogs movement. That is my opinion only and not backed by any medical or otherwise credible sources lol.


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## rkwjunior (Oct 9, 2014)

Saphire said:


> I do not think a roached back is normal, desirable or to the breed standard. I consider it a deformity. It does have an impact on the dogs movement. That is my opinion only and not backed by any medical or otherwise credible sources lol.


OMG, blah blah blah.. I don't care what u think about the showline or the bread standard. i care about facts, and faults and the in's and out's of the showline breed of GSD's.

I knew someone couldn't resist crapping on the Showline. I need showline experts here, not showline haters.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

There are show people on here that can answer you. Hopefully they will see this thread. I think part of it is the stack. IT looks like the dogs legs are not pulled back far enough. Like they are trying to shorten the dog.

You can upload the videos to youtube and share the link.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

rkwjunior said:


> OMG, blah blah blah.. I don't care what u think about the showline or the bread standard. i care about facts, and faults and the in's and out's of the showline breed of GSD's.
> 
> I knew someone couldn't resist crapping on the Showline. I need showline experts here, not showline haters.


Lol my last GSD was a showline, I am far from a hater. You asked for opinions, I gave you mine.

Gotta love the rude newbies around here. By the way, you SHOULD care about the "bread" standard.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

It's hard to tell from the small pic.

Most of the time you can post videos by copying and pasting the link from youtube or other video site. That's the easiest way.

A video would help.

I'm not an expert in dog conformation but currently own and am looking at possibly another Showline in the future.

I have been taught that a true roach back would mean at some point the top line height exceeds the height of the withers. That does not appear to be the case with this dog but again, the pic is small and it's hard to say.

I hope one of our more knowledgable WGSL folks chime in. I think there's only 3 or 4 here who have actively competed with WGSL and two of them rarely post any more.


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## rkwjunior (Oct 9, 2014)

Saphire said:


> Lol my last GSD was a showline, I am far from a hater. You asked for opinions, I gave you mine.
> 
> Gotta love the rude newbies around here. By the way, you SHOULD care about the "bread" standard.


I'm being rude cause you completely ignored what i said in my first post and purposely started a breed standard debate. Just cause i'm a newb here doesn't mean i don't know the difference in opinion between showlines and the working line. This isn't a breed standard debate, it's a question on a particular dog and something that might be out of the ordinary even for a showline. I feel like you trolled just because im a newb, and your trying to preach "the Breed standard". Thanx Mr "bread standard" expert.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I don't think this dog looks that extreme guys. Especially with only this pic to go by.

I agree with Jax, the stack looks bunched up and the photo is small. A video would help greatly.

I wish GSDs in general weren't stacked like this. I've seen improperly stack working lines look very similar to this dog.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

I just tried to stack my dog in a simular way, I can't get the back to roach like that but perhaps others can.

When I do a google search on "roach back GSD", I get pictures very simular to the OP.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I give up.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

OP - you asked for opinions. People answered honestly. OF COURSE people are going to bring up "breed standard". If the dog is extreme, which is what YOU are asking, then it goes against breed standard. YOU are the only one bringing up working line. Everyone else has addressed the question you asked.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Saphire said:


> I just tried to stack my dog in a simular way, I can't get the back to roach like that but perhaps others can.


I don't think we could ever get our dogs into a stack line that. We don't have the roach. Seger has a bit of a roach but not the extreme angulation. We'll just tick our boys off trying to scrunch them.

I'd like to see a video to see if the dog is like that in motion. I met a couple of the show lines that are owned by the lady teaching me handling and they did not have a roach and they were titled  .


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## rkwjunior (Oct 9, 2014)

Here is a video, i asked for a longer video but this is what i got.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lp1j8J2OS60

Thanx again


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## rkwjunior (Oct 9, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> OP - you asked for opinions. People answered honestly. OF COURSE people are going to bring up "breed standard". If the dog is extreme, which is what YOU are asking, then it goes against breed standard. YOU are the only one bringing up working line. Everyone else has addressed the question you asked.


Unreal, i just want an opinion on the showline, and if it's extreme for the showline, no more no less. i made it very clear in my first post.

I had a showline with a lot less curve of the back than this one, just wondering if this was excessive to the point of it being a birth defect. I've also seen showlines with very straight but also very low angulation, this dog seems to have more of an arch with low angulation.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I don't think this dog looks that extreme guys. Especially with only this pic to go by.
> 
> I agree with Jax, the stack looks bunched up and the photo is small. A video would help greatly.
> 
> I wish GSDs in general weren't stacked like this. I've seen improperly stack working lines look very similar to this dog.


Does it look like the inside back leg is pulled to far forward? Perhaps in an effort to make the angle look steeper? I was told to pull Seger's inside leg out to drop his back a little more to get a better picture.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Yup I give up too. If the OP isn't going to take responsibility for their tone and attitude, no sense wasting my time watching a video or evaluating a crappy picture.

Good luck. Try being nice and perhaps a bit more reasonable next time. Nobody needs crap attitude when they are trying to answer the question you asked.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I think it was Rob with his young male, even he was surprised at how a bad stack made his WL.

True roach backs are rare.

I know the same terms are used in horses, horses are similar that you see more sway backs then roach backs.

(Saphire -I understood what you were saying earlier and didn't think you were rude btw...)



Saphire said:


> I just tried to stack my dog in a simular way, I can't get the back to roach like that but perhaps others can.
> 
> When I do a google search on "roach back GSD", I get pictures very simular to the OP.


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## rkwjunior (Oct 9, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> Yup I give up too. If the OP isn't going to take responsibility for their tone and attitude, no sense wasting my time watching a video or evaluating a crappy picture.
> 
> Good luck. Try being nice and perhaps a bit more reasonable next time. Nobody needs crap attitude when they are trying to answer the question you asked.


All this because someone couldn't resist telling me "showlines aren't the bread standard" and i SPECIFICALLY asked not to make this a breeds standard debate. it was a showline only question.


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## rkwjunior (Oct 9, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I think it was Rob with his young male, even he was surprised at how a bad stack made his WL.
> 
> True roach backs are rare.
> 
> ...


Thank you.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

rkwjunior said:


> Here is a video, i asked for a longer video but this is what i got.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lp1j8J2OS60
> 
> Thanx again



I'm getting "error loading". The v= syntax maybe incorrect or set to private.

I also think you misunderstood Saphire.....


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

rkwjunior said:


> All this because someone couldn't resist telling me "showlines aren't the bread standard" and i SPECIFICALLY asked not to make this a breeds standard debate. it was a showline only question.


oh good god...that is NOT what she said at all! GO read that again. Get rid of the defensiveness and chill out a bit.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Rkwjunior, best to do as Jax suggests and let it go.

The video isn't working...


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## gsdheeler (Apr 12, 2010)

I couldn't view the video either. From what I can see from the pic. the stack could be better, how old is this dog? They do go thru growth spurts that can make them look a little off.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Nobody at all said show lines aren't breed standard... In fact, most of the people you're arguing with own show lines. Go back and read. You asked for opinions, and you got them... Breed standard has everything to do wth extremes and nothing to do with show lines vs working lines. Not a single response you've gotten has been in any way inflammatory or negative towards show lines. I like the look of many show line dogs. Does the dog have too extreme a roach for me? Going by the picture alone, yes. Could it just be a crappy stack? Absolutely. The video doesn't work. 

White vs whole wheat though... That's another issue.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I'm going to have to look at the photo more closely again but I'm not seeing a point where the top line is higher then the withers?


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Nope, not seeing it....but the slope is definately pronounced.

That's where the stack or angulation or both come into play(??) Can't tell for sure from the pic.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Jax08 said:


> oh good god...that is NOT what she said at all!


True - this is the post in question: 



Saphire said:


> I do not think a roached back is normal, desirable or to the breed standard.


The comment is about _roached backs,_ not about showline dogs in general. Not all showline dogs have roached backs. My current and prior WGSL did/do not.


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## nezzz (Jan 20, 2013)

OP, are you planning to show the dog?? If you are I would say no. As a pet I think it would be ok, but you will need to see his movement and see if there is any weakness in the hind legs as that seems to affect show lines more.

And again, back to breed standard, regardless of work or show lines, you should always aim to get one that is within the breed standard. IMO, this dog is not breed standard.
http://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/americankennelclub/GermanShepherdDog.pdf


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Just curious, you posted the AKC standard. 

I know that they register WGSLs in the U.S. with the AKC but most WGSLs show under the SV. ASLs don't show under the SV system.

So what part of the AKC standard does this dog not meet and how did you determine it?


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

rkwjunior said:


> "showlines aren't the bread standard"


LOL you're cute. Such rudeness to people who are just stating their opinion. If you think 'blah blah blah' is appropriate to these responses, you should stick around and post in a training thread.

Meanwhile back to your question. The picture is too small and the owner of the youtube video must grant permission. 

You say he's a young dog, not if he's still a puppy. Post his age and a better picture. If some short video and a lousy little picture are all the owners giving you, as well as not answering your questions about why does the dog look kinda funny, perhaps you should ask 'why are you selling this dog?' 

Or move along.


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## annap24 (Jul 22, 2014)

Not trying to derail the thread, but does anyone have a picture of a roach back dog not in a stack? I think Reagan may have one. She has a small part in the middle of her spine where the spine sticks up higher than the rest of her back.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Hi Anna,

Start with this thread, page 2, post #12 by Qbchottu, there are explanations and links to threads with pictures.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/genetic-issues/514881-roached-back-dominant-shape-2.html#post6374441


(P.s. The important thing to note is the height of the withers vs your dogs back/top line)


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

This is my perception of roach back. Emphasis on MY. As the marking shows, it can be very subtle. The more you bring the back legs in, the more extreme it becomes but will lower the spines angle perhaps making it more difficult to see if it is indeed higher than the withers.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Yup, it looks like the top line is higher then the withers, going by the yellow line. 

IMO as our friend Ash points out a lot of people (not you Saphire) confuse the sloping top lines as "roach". 

That of course starts into the whole angulation discussion and on.....


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

If you draw the back legs in under this dog, the topline will drop and no longer look above the withers, but it wouldn't change the fact there is a roach back...correct?


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

So let's try this.....


Now what do you see?

For the record I don't have an official answer for that question lol. I do have several years of showing in conformation, just not GSD'S.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

IMHO, emphasis on humble and opinion...


The dog you pictured has a couple of problems, the higher point behind her withers and her neck looks like what we called in horses an "ewe neck", tying to low into her shoulders. 

I'm going to say in her case stacking won't hide her flaws.

In the case of the dog in the a OPs pic, if the stack is hiding a roach then it's a very slight or subtle as you say. 

I'll toss one other thing out between the two. The female in your pic looks weak in her hind quarters, not well muscled. 

The dog in the OPs pic looks to have better musculature. He is, to my eye, not an extreme example. That could change with video and more pics though!

As to the finer points that would be up to our more knowledgeable WGSL people. 






Saphire said:


> If you draw the back legs in under this dog, the topline will drop and no longer look above the withers, but it wouldn't change the fact there is a roach back...correct?


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Now what you must remember is the OP does not care about the angulation nor wants an opinion on if how, or why that could factors into this as it has nothing to do with the original question of is there a roach back but again that's just MY opinion....legal disclaimer.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Ah just saw the two pics side by side.

Just behind his withers I see poofier wither fur, seriously. Ilda has the same thing. If it's a true roach it's very slight.

In the female there's more going on to give us a clue. Again MHO.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Lol! 



saphire said:


> now what you must remember is the op does not care about the angulation nor wants an opinion on if how, or why that could factors into this, but again that's just my opinion....legal disclaimer.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

IN MY OPINION there is more going on here but I really don't want to get yelled at again so I'm not sayin...but that's just ME.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I didn't yell at you?




Saphire said:


> IN MY OPINION there is more going on here but I really don't want to get yelled at again so I'm not sayin...but that's just ME.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I didn't yell at you?


Noooo you didn't yell at me. I'm easily hurt though. ? ?


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Ehhh, what? Lol! the OP is long gone. Just friends chatting now. 

The determining factor would be to see better pics and video, but alas, it's not meant to be.

..and it's time to go to sleep.

Have a good evening.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Maybe they will come back with video and better pics looking for more knowledgable input. ?


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

:silly: :help:



Saphire said:


> Maybe they will come back with video and better pics looking for more knowledgable input. ?


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## nezzz (Jan 20, 2013)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Just curious, you posted the AKC standard.
> 
> I know that they register WGSLs in the U.S. with the AKC but most WGSLs show under the SV. ASLs don't show under the SV system.
> 
> So what part of the AKC standard does this dog not meet and how did you determine it?


AKC breed standard is almost similar to SV barring minor differences.
http://www.fci.be/Nomenclature/Standards/166g01-en.pdf

Anyway here is a portion which is non standard in my opinion. I might be wrong, but this dog seems a little too extreme.


SV Standard said:


> The upper line runs from the base of the neck via the high, long withers and via the straight back towards the slightly sloping croup, without visible interruption. The back is moderately long, firm, strong and well-muscled. The loin is broad, short, strongly developed and well-muscled. The croup should be long and slightly sloping (approx 23° to the horizontal) and the upper line should merge into the base of the tail without interruption.


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## BeachLvr (Jul 17, 2013)

*You have to see the dogs movement and action*. Stacked pictures can be deceptive. Roached backs have gone back a pretty long time. Check out picks of an amazing dog Fanto.
2X World Sieger Fanto vom Hirschel Pedigree


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I'm skipping past several pages in this thread....when I look at the photo I don't see a roached back, I see a dog that is a bit too square overall and has a steep and short to the point of non-existent croup, like his back just drops off. That's not roach, but IMO not desirable (at least not for me). I personally do not mind a GSD that is a bit more squarely proportioned and shorter coupled but I train and compete in dog sports where this body type is more advantageous. JMHO

Oh if I need to qualify myself lest the OP be defensive, my "primary" dog (for lack of a better word) is a west German show line. I love these dogs but am picky about structure no matter what line or mix of lines. I do NOT like broken toplines, short and steep croups, and dogs that are very loose in movement so they appear weak.


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## rkwjunior (Oct 9, 2014)

I'm back, I'm on the east coast and get up early so i had to hit the hay. 
Anyway... I appreciate all the responses to the task at hand and getting back on track here, aside from breed standard, which somehow got brought up.
I will try to get the video to work properly so hopefully the GSL experts can comment further. Thanx.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Ah ha...but here's the conundrum, an ASL probably would never do well in a SV show, if any (or none?) have even attempted it. The AKC shows are very different from SV. 

I have heard stories of some WGSL dogs showing AKC but it is very uncommon and they aren't going to place as well in an AKC show.

Working lines aren't common in the AKC venues either and if they do show them it's mostly under the SV system.

So....it's really not possible to say for certain that this dog is to standard or not, especially from that one picture, then add in the WGSL - ASL split and it muddies the water even more. As long as there are no serious faults the rest of it is up to the judges weighing the strong and weak points of the dog.

(The SV also makes the dogs go through more tests for breed worthiness then the AKC.)




nezzz said:


> AKC breed standard is almost similar to SV barring minor differences.
> http://www.fci.be/Nomenclature/Standards/166g01-en.pdf
> 
> Anyway here is a portion which is non standard in my opinion. I might be wrong, but this dog seems a little too extreme.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I was hoping Lies would chime in. . 

Makes sense, that would cause the more pronounced downward slope of the top line.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

What's the pedigree of the dog? Personally I hate to completely write off a dog based on one picture. The dog looks "hand stacked" (placed by hand, being held, possibly having the rear pushed down by the handler). I'd like to see the dog standing and moving freely on its own, and know the pedigree, at the VERY least before I would say "no" or express more interest in buying a young dog. I like the head, coat, bone, and color.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

IMHO, as Ash has pointed out here a few times in the past, the term "roach back" is misused and often misunderstood especially when it comes to the WGSL dogs. 

That's not to say the dog the OP is enquiring about is flawless, but there doesn't appear to be a roach back.

These threads really are a good opportunity to learn more about conformation.


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## Traveler's Mom (Sep 24, 2012)

I just noticed this post. I know nothing but I have a WGSL and he does not have the roach back. He also has pink papers.

I hate that butt tucked look. If I really stretch his stance, he can appear more roached.

We took 3rd in conformation from an SV judge some years ago. I think Traveler was about 3.

I haven't read thru all the posts but if OP had a few more pics, it would be helpful.

You will see in the second picture that he's just standing around and not in posing which gives an even more neutral and natural view.

Lynn & Traveler

I said standing but he's moving, obviously ;-)


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I rescued a dog that looked like the one in the photo. He could run like the wind and had no health problems because of the structure. Was a really nice dog.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

How old and do you plan on showing in conformation (sorry if I missed it if you answered these questions already)? 

This dog is not roached, but as Lies said, has a VERY steep croup. The croup actually has good length, but IMO he will not do well in the conformation ring here, as pictured. He also will have a lack of reach in front due to a short upper arm. 

A lot of handlers know how to make the dogs look pretty extreme for photos so, yes, seeing the dog standing freely and moving freely (not pulling on a tight leash) would be helpful. Unfortunately I can't watch the videos.


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## rkwjunior (Oct 9, 2014)

Liesje said:


> What's the pedigree of the dog? Personally I hate to completely write off a dog based on one picture. The dog looks "hand stacked" (placed by hand, being held, possibly having the rear pushed down by the handler). I'd like to see the dog standing and moving freely on its own, and know the pedigree, at the VERY least before I would say "no" or express more interest in buying a young dog. I like the head, coat, bone, and color.


Both his parents are from the Fichtenschlag kennel in Germany, the father being VA lliano vom Fichtenschlag.

The video should work now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lp1j8J2OS60

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kH0LkZdWmQ.

Im trying to get longer videos.

Thanx for all ur expertise.


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## rkwjunior (Oct 9, 2014)

Just found out he has been sold. Thanx for everyones time and opinions.


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## Aimeanda (Aug 14, 2014)

I'd like to read everyone's opinions on the videos anyway. As a complete amateur, I thought something looked off. I'm guessing it's the steep croup. I personally would not want a dog who looked and moved like this.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Well, that makes your decision easier! This is a young dog? To me, he moves like a much older dog. 

Here's my issue in general, not only specifically with that (handsome faced) dog - these young dogs with bodies shaped in ways that PT/rehab type vets will tell you set them up for future issues - will eventually age, and end up dragging that hind end around, without the spinal strength to support it (my observation - would love to see a study). I think breeding for the prime age isn't the thing to do, breeding for old age is.


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## rkwjunior (Oct 9, 2014)

After reading some responses I was leaning towards passing on him anyway, he has the bloodline but that isn't everything, something just didn't seem right.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I agree with Jean. I watched the vids last night and wondered. To me, they don't even look like the same dog. The vids were very short with repetition, the one of him in the ring. Kind of fuzzy out of focus too. If he's a good dog why not really show him off? 

Sire's progeny not making a stamp in Germany or the US, that I saw? 

I would have definately passed on the dog in the video.

Probably for the best you didn't buy him.

Are you planning to show?


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