# Child Dead, Mom Hurt-Doberman Attack



## newlie

So very sad..


4-year-old dead after dog attack at home; mother in hospital | WLOS


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## MineAreWorkingline

Sorry to hear about this child. She deserved better.

A Dobermann? How rare! I hope they are performing a necropsy.


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## Suki's Mom

How sad.


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## dogfaeries

That's terrible. Apparently they had gotten the dog that day.


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## cloudpump

Ugh, I read stories like that and it makes me want to just hold my daughter tight.


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## Stevenzachsmom

Horrible.


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## newlie

So few details at this point, would like to know what transpired...


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## scarfish

either way it's always horrible when i child is killed. but i believe most cases are negligence of the owner. an adult doberman they just got is going to not have gained trust yet and is prolly nervous living in a new place. if they were outside with a 4 year old on the first day the dog should've been on a leash. or at least any kinda control measure that you would feel comfortable with at first.

whether the dog was spooked, the girl ran and triggered prey drive or if the little kid smacked it in the face we will never know. these details never seem to come out in cases like this. IMO they really should to help educate other parents educate themselves.


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## Jenny720

Suppose to be such a happy exciting time adding a new dog to the family this really is so sad. Prayers for the family to get through this.


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## wolfy dog

scarfish said:


> either way it's always horrible when i child is killed. but i believe most cases are negligence of the owner. an adult doberman they just got is going to not have gained trust yet and is prolly nervous living in a new place. if they were outside with a 4 year old on the first day the dog should've been on a leash. or at least any kinda control measure that you would feel comfortable with at first.
> 
> whether the dog was spooked, the girl ran and triggered prey drive or if the little kid smacked it in the face we will never know. these details never seem to come out in cases like this. IMO they really should to help educate other parents educate themselves.


Another factor is, when adopting an grown dog from "someone", details about the dog are often not revealed. A shelter in our area cranks out dogs, transported from out of state, without temperament testing them. Great income for us trainers but bad for the public who have to deal with aggression cases galore. 

With small children I would not ever adopt a dog with an unknown history, either from a shelter, rescue/hoarding group or from a private party.
Most likely the dog was trusted too much and people not enough experienced. The dog will probably be killed as well so everyone loses.


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## Baillif

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Sorry to hear about this child. She deserved better.
> 
> A Dobermann? How rare! I hope they are performing a necropsy.


U
I know right!? Looks like someone found the one Doberman that still bites.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Baillif said:


> U
> I know right!? Looks like someone found the one Doberman that still bites.


This is a fatality, not a bite. One comes with a toe tag, the other a bandaid, sometimes a stitch or two.

Don't know if you are being facetious or not, but the Dobes in my area are all nerve bags that wouldn't bite their own dinner.


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## Baillif

Was a very dark joke at the expense of working dobie owners.


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## Stevenzachsmom

wolfy dog said:


> Another factor is, when adopting an grown dog from "someone", details about the dog are often not revealed. A shelter in our area cranks out dogs, transported from out of state, without temperament testing them. Great income for us trainers but bad for the public who have to deal with aggression cases galore.
> 
> *With small children I would not ever adopt a dog with an unknown history, either from a shelter, rescue/hoarding group or from a private party.
> Most likely the dog was trusted too much and people not enough experienced. The dog will probably be killed as well so everyone loses.*


I do understand what you are saying. But, I did adopt an adult shelter dog, when my kids were young. They were 9, 5 and 2. I knew little to nothing about her. She was a 2 year old German Shepherd. She adored my kids from day one. I agree it is always important to be careful, but I would hate for people to shun shelter dogs, because they fear they are all like this doberman. 

My current two dogs are also shelter dogs, though I adopted them as pups. My big, mostly GSD girl, loves kids. I no longer have young kids, but she is very happy when kids visit.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Baillif said:


> Was a very dark joke at the expense of working dobie owners.


I agree.


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## selzer

One of the ladies that I used to train with. Older ladies, deep into obedience, lots of experience, sisters. One had goldens the other Dobermans. Well, the Doberman lady, she had this young Dobe for 2 years and finally had to put him down. She was experienced with the breed, but the dog would come up and bite her arms, finally he attacked her. I guess they are prone to bad genes or inappropriate aggression issues. 

Another Doberman owner that I trained with, said they used to use them in the military, but the dogs were too quick to bite, and would often bite their handlers. So they don't tend to use them in that venue much. Her dog is great now, but when he was younger, he was one I would pay attention to. A formidable dog.

Of course this dog should be put down. I really don't care about the extenuating circumstances, it killed a four year old child. 

I couldn't watch the clip but read the story, and it sounds like friends of the family got the dog. But the mother and the child were killed. Where were the friends. Why weren't they transported to the hospital too? Yeah, we really do not have much information. 

Terrible. Poor kid. Her poor family.


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## Jax08

This is exactly why we tell people that come on this board wanting to rehome their aggressive dog that it's irresponsible to do so and that not all dogs should be saved. It's why we recommend professional trainers when people have children and have an aggressive dog. 

Somewhere out there, somebody KNEW this dog had potential to do serious damage. Somebody in the line of previous owners is responsible for this death.

This infuriates me. 100% preventable.


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## voodoolamb

selzer said:


> One of the ladies that I used to train with. Older ladies, deep into obedience, lots of experience, sisters. One had goldens the other Dobermans. Well, the Doberman lady, she had this young Dobe for 2 years and finally had to put him down. She was experienced with the breed, but the dog would come up and bite her arms, finally he attacked her. I guess they are prone to bad genes or inappropriate aggression issues.
> 
> Another Doberman owner that I trained with, said they used to use them in the military, but the dogs were too quick to bite, and would often bite their handlers. So they don't tend to use them in that venue much. Her dog is great now, but when he was younger, he was one I would pay attention to. A formidable dog.
> .


Aren't dobies one of the breeds susceptible to rage syndrome too?


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## Jenny720

The mom in the hospital she did not make it? I hope they research into the background of this dog. This is not just a bite but a mauling of two people- serious issues were missed- I was thinking rage syndrome also.


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## MineAreWorkingline

voodoolamb said:


> Aren't dobies one of the breeds susceptible to rage syndrome too?


"Were" is the key word. Dobe breeders took the condition very seriously and bred it into near obsoletion. 

However, it can and does occur randomly in any breed, but right now mostly some spaniel breeds and St. Bernards.


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## selzer

I don't know if the mother was killed. Sorry, but my post reads that way. I think I meant, the mother was hospitalized and the child, killed. Why weren't the owners hospitalized as well?

Yes, this is why we shouldn't save every dog. Dogs that do serious damage to children. Dogs that bite their owners, I mean, really, to do damage bite them. Dogs that are unpredictable. This kind of thing really hurts all dog owners, because people tend to group formidable dogs together. And, yes, this could have been a pit bull or it could have been a Rottweiler, or it could have been a German Shepherd dog. 

I think many mistakes were made with regard to this dog, knowing nothing whatsoever about it. Yes, the reason it was in the shelter was probably because its owners could not handle aggression issues. They probably should have put the dog down. A shelter should do more than find an unsuspecting couple to take a dog home. The new owners should have taken the dog home and given it a little time to settle in, and for them to learn what the dog's temperament is, before putting it into a situation with a little kid -- this isn't a one-two day endeavor. 

Yes, I think you can get an adult dog with kids. If you are experienced. If you are getting the dog from someone who is experienced. It depends on the dog. But, even so, this is rare. 

Dog-bite fatalities are rare. Unfortunately dog bites are not all that rare, and this wouldn't be in the news today if the dog just bit the kid several times, scaring her face and her feelings about dogs -- wouldn't even make the paper.


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## onyx'girl

I live not too far from this area...we had a 'clear the shelter' event in all shelters in most MI cities. I was so relieved to see this was NOT a dog from that.

The owner of the dog was on the scene shortly after this happened, he may be charged. 

I feel so bad for all involved, this must have happened in split seconds, and the neighbors were also traumatized trying to help the victims.


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## Chip18

I'm sorry but I don't view this as a "Dobbie " gone wrong thing?? I view it as a this "dog" should not have been allowed around "Children" thing. Seriously this dog had a "problem with kids ... and was adopted out to "JQ Clueless???" And no one knew the dog had a "kid" issue??? 

Come on ... how freaking hard is it to figure out if you have a "No Kids" dog??? That symbol is on lots of rescue sties. I figured out my GSD had a "kid" problem and I don't have kids! It's not that hard, that "rescue" should be out of "business" or institute a no "real dogs policy!" This dog just "happened" to be a "Dobbie" but they could have exercised this same sort of ineptitude and lack of judgement with any "Breed." 

Maybe they need a no working dog and nothing over 25 lbs policy???


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## dogfaeries

MineAreWorkingline said:


> "Were" is the key word. Dobe breeders took the condition very seriously and bred it into near obsoletion.
> 
> 
> 
> However, it can and does occur randomly in any breed, but right now mostly some spaniel breeds and St. Bernards.




Yes, that was a problem in the past. People still like to perpetuate the myth that at some point a dobe's brain gets too big for their skull, and will turn on their owner. Ugh.


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## newlie

The mother was injured trying to fight off the dog and was hospitalized, but not killed. 

Also, I just found some additional information. The family did not get the dog from a shelter, they bought it from an individual. The dog was only at their home for about 5 minutes before the attack occurred. The little girl was offering it a treat, the Doberman sniffed at it a couple of times, and then lunged and went for the child's throat.

When I said earlier that I wished there was more information, I did not mean to give the impression that there might have been extenuating circumstances. Killing a child to me means the dog must be put down, no question. I just wanted, I guess for my own education, to know what happened.


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## selzer

Chip18 said:


> I'm sorry but I don't view this as a "Dobbie " gone wrong thing?? I view it as a this "dog" should not have been allowed around "Children" thing. Seriously this dog had a "problem with kids ... and was adopted out to "JQ Clueless???" And no one knew the dog had a "kid" issue???
> 
> Come on ... how freaking hard is it to figure out if you have a "No Kids" dog??? That symbol is on lots of rescue sties. I figured out my GSD had a "kid" problem and I don't have kids! It's not that hard, that "rescue" should be out of "business" or institute a no "real dogs policy!" This dog just "happened" to be a "Dobbie" but they could have exercised this same sort of ineptitude and lack of judgement with any "Breed."
> 
> Maybe they need a no working dog and nothing over 25 lbs policy???


No kids, and will kill a kid are two different things. Any dog will bite if you drive it hard enough. Any dog. A golden. An English Setter. Any dog. You can't drive all dogs hard enough for them to kill, especially a human. A dog that kills a human needs to be put down. Something wrong with the dog, unless it is a total accident: i.e. the got up as 90 year old lady was stepping over the dog, and knocked the lady down, and she broke her very brittle hip, went into the hospital and died -- that is an accident, not an aggressive kill on the part of the dog. 

This dog killed a small child. And it wasn't an accident. Dog needs to be put down, so some other parent is not grieving for their child because someone wouldn't do the right thing.


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## scarfish

down with the dog!


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## Chip18

selzer said:


> No kids, and will kill a kid are two different things. Any dog will bite if you drive it hard enough. Any dog. A golden. An English Setter. Any dog. You can't drive all dogs hard enough for them to kill, especially a human. A dog that kills a human needs to be put down. Something wrong with the dog, unless it is a total accident: i.e. the got up as 90 year old lady was stepping over the dog, and knocked the lady down, and she broke her very brittle hip, went into the hospital and died -- that is an accident, not an aggressive kill on the part of the dog.
> 
> This dog killed a small child. And it wasn't an accident. Dog needs to be put down, so some other parent is not grieving for their child because someone wouldn't do the right thing.


I'll take your word as to how it played out. I did not view the clip.

I was just going by what I assumed would reasonably be done to "temperament test" unknown dogs??


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## Chip18

newlie said:


> The mother was injured trying to fight off the dog and was hospitalized, but not killed.
> 
> Also, I just found some additional information. The family did not get the dog from a shelter, they bought it from an individual. The dog was only at their home for about 5 minutes before the attack occurred. The little girl was offering it a treat, the Doberman sniffed at it a couple of times, and then lunged and went for the child's throat.
> 
> When I said earlier that I wished there was more information, I did not mean to give the impression that there might have been extenuating circumstances. Killing a child to me means the dog must be put down, no question. I just wanted, I guess for my own education, to know what happened.


Ugh ... sadly and most tragically that goes to a point I often make about a dog taking a treat and still striking!!! 

I never envisioned anything like this however.


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## Deb

My heart breaks for this mother and the family. I've worked with a lot of Dobes in rescue and not one I ever worked with was a danger to children. I have a friend that's worked Dobes in Sch, yeah I know, and she often speaks of how hard it is to find a Dobe that will do the down the field attack work. Yes, I'm using the wrong terminology, sorry, I don't know the right wording. She said she'd spend several years training to only have it go down the drain in a dog that can't finish it's title. 


That said, the Doberman is one of the breeds not allowed on a military post. And personally, I think Dobes overall are safer than most backyard bred GSDs.


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## Stevenzachsmom

Here is a more updated link, if it works.

Family dog attacks, kills 4-year-old girl, mother in Sherman...


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## Moriah

voodoolamb said:


> Aren't dobies one of the breeds susceptible to rage syndrome too?


Yes! I was just reading an article about it the other day. (Sorry, I can't remember where.) It stated that it was a problem in Doberman, but in recent times, breeders had addressed the seizure problems that contributed to rage. I am assuming "good" breeders had addressed the problem . . .


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## llombardo

Moriah said:


> Yes! I was just reading an article about it the other day. (Sorry, I can't remember where.) It stated that it was a problem in Doberman, but in recent times, breeders had addressed the seizure problems that contributed to rage. I am assuming "good" breeders had addressed the problem . . .


This was a serious issue years ago. We put Dobe after Dobe to sleep due to this. Owners were heartbroken and none hurt to badly, but it shook them. Every case was the same. Dog was completely fine, then out of the blue it would attack the owners and the attacks were always the face area. No warning either. Maybe it just isn't out of the lines yet.


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## llombardo

Stevenzachsmom said:


> Here is a more updated link, if it works.
> 
> Family dog attacks, kills 4-year-old girl, mother in Sherman...


The fundraising page gives insight from family versus media. 


"They had gotten a dog that day and, as the old owner went to leave, the dog attacked Kiyana." 

So did the dog try following it's owner and the little girl tried holding the dog back and the dog redirected? There is a picture of the girl holding the pup around the neck(probably moments before the attack). It's still not an excuse but it would explain the attack a little better then out of nowhere.


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## Stevenzachsmom

llombardo said:


> The fundraising page gives insight from family versus media.
> 
> 
> "They had gotten a dog that day and, as the old owner went to leave, the dog attacked Kiyana."
> 
> So did the dog try following it's owner and the little girl tried holding the dog back and the dog redirected? *There is a picture of the girl holding the pup around the neck(probably moments before the attack).* It's still not an excuse but it would explain the attack a little better then out of nowhere.


That is NOT the dog that attacked the little girl. That is a picture of their previous dog who passed away.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Stevenzachsmom said:


> That is NOT the dog that attacked the little girl. That is a picture of their previous dog who passed away.


A Dobe mix, huh? I wonder if they will ever say what it is mixed with.


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## wolfy dog

MineAreWorkingline said:


> A Dobe mix, huh? I wonder if they will ever say what it is mixed with.


Probably "something" black and tan without Dobie genes. Will hurt the breed's reputation.


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## llombardo

Stevenzachsmom said:


> That is NOT the dog that attacked the little girl. That is a picture of their previous dog who passed away.


Then I stand corrected if that is the case. What still seems to be true is that the attack took place when the original owner was leaving.


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## Deb

Still an extreme reaction to the owner leaving. A bite if being held back, but a full out attack it shouldn't have been. Someone said the owner might be charged? Surely the owner had some inclination of the dog's temperament.


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## llombardo

Deb said:


> Still an extreme reaction to the owner leaving. A bite if being held back, but a full out attack it shouldn't have been. Someone said the owner might be charged? Surely the owner had some inclination of the dog's temperament.


I read one account that said the owner tried giving CPR to the child and they stated that there has never been a warning or suggestion this dog would do anything like this.


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## newlie

When something tragic like this happenes, it's sometimes hard to get all the details straight. The neighbor right next door said the mother told her the child was trying to train the dog with a treat. The dog sniffed the treat twice and then the third time went right for the baby's throat.

Also, there seems to be some confusion about whether the owner was still there. The reports I read said that the owner had dropped the dog off and left, hadn't been gone but about 5 minutes when the attack took place. He was called while still on the road and came racing back. He told the neighbor that the dog had never "bothered" any child before. It has not been reported (as far as I have seen) how long he had owned the dog prior to this, where he got the dog or the reason he decided to sell.


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## cloudpump

At the end of the day, that child was failed. Mistakes and accidents happen. But that poor child.


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## LeoRose

So sad. 

I wonder where the dog was from. There are some lines who are known (by experienced Dobe people, anyway) to produce dogs with _seriously_ unsound temperaments, but the people who breed them manage to sell a crap ton of puppies to inexperienced people.


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## wolfy dog

cloudpump said:


> At the end of the day, that child was failed.


and the dog as well.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Woman, 68, Found Dead With Dog Bite Marks to Body: NYPD | NBC New York


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## selzer

wolfy dog said:


> and the dog as well.


We really don't know this. The dog had a lose screw. I really don't know and don't care if this was its first transgression. Normal dogs do not KILL an unknown child for offering it a treat.

I don't think it is helpful for us to always try to stick up for the dog. A four year old child is dead! Sometimes I think we are more unforgiving (of the dog) if the dead critter was a dog.


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## selzer

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Woman, 68, Found Dead With Dog Bite Marks to Body: NYPD | NBC New York


 
We don't know yet enough about this, not sure how it is similar to this or not yet. 

Do we know what the Doberman was mixed with?


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## MineAreWorkingline

selzer said:


> We don't know yet enough about this, not sure how it is similar to this or not yet.
> 
> Do we know what the Doberman was mixed with?


No, they are with holding the original owner's name, the mixture of the breed, and any pictures of the dog.


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## wolfy dog

selzer said:


> We really don't know this. The dog had a lose screw. I really don't know and don't care if this was its first transgression. Normal dogs do not KILL an unknown child for offering it a treat.
> 
> I don't think it is helpful for us to always try to stick up for the dog. A four year old child is dead! Sometimes I think we are more unforgiving (of the dog) if the dead critter was a dog.


 I am not sticking up for the dog. The dog will probably be PTS because he was adopted out to the wrong home. I am sure his previous owner was aware. It is tragic for all involved. I have had a dog with a screw loose and had him PTS before he killed me or someone else. I would have failed him if I had adopted him out to get rid of my problem. That's what I meant by my previous post.


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## Chip18

I don't know??? I just find it hard to belive that "whoever" was responsible for this first ... saw no hint of "anything" that did not seem "right???" We don't really know if the dog had a "problem with kids??" Or if it was a case of well .. he did not growl/snap at that kid ... so we must be good??? 

Dare I say that most reasonably intelligent individuals understand if they have a problem "dog??" I just have a problem with the "out of 
nowhere this happened thing??? Most likely a "criminal level of stupid" is the casue but yeah ... I don't know.


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## selzer

wolfy dog said:


> I am not sticking up for the dog. The dog will probably be PTS because he was adopted out to the wrong home. I am sure his previous owner was aware. It is tragic for all involved. I have had a dog with a screw loose and had him PTS before he killed me or someone else. I would have failed him if I had adopted him out to get rid of my problem. That's what I meant by my previous post.


 
Ok, but dogs live in the moment. And a dog that kills a child is not living with the grief and shame of having done something completely heinous. It isn't failing the dog to fail to put the dog to sleep before it hurts someone real bad. It is failing all dogs, maybe, and dog owners, but mostly it is failing the victim, the child in this case. 

Certainly the dog's owner failed the child, and maybe the new owners letting the dog be so close to their child failed to protect her, but I think that judgement is harsh. Because dogs do not kill people often. It is rare. We hear about it when it happens because it is rare and tragic. Maybe if the child needed stitches, you could point the finger at the child's parents for not being more careful with an unknown dog. But not for a death. I think that most people would be introducing the dog to the child early on, to see whether or not it is a good fit. Letting a tiny child give treats to a dog they don't know yet, well.... But no one expected the dog would go for the throat. That is just totally and completely out there.


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## newlie

To be offered a treat by a child and go for her throat? I think you said it right, Selzer, that dog has a screw loose. Having seen what it is capable of, the only reasonable choice is to put it to sleep.


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## JunYue97

I really don't think it is about the breed instead of about the individual dog. 

I remember something like this happened in the village where my step father came from in rural China. If I did not remember wrong, that dog was a GSD and the victim was the niece of the owner and lived in the same village as him. Apparently when the child played with the dog during a visit with her relatives, the wall where the dog's chain was attached got loose and the dog ended up mauling the kid even though they had been introduced to each other and seemed to get along before. That child was 8 or what I don't remember.

But to be fair, in distant rural China most dogs are kept on chain all day during day time and are only allowed to roam the yard at night. They are beaten if they enter the house, and their job is to keep the thieves and robbers away at night. So that dog probably was not well socialized nor well bred. I remember we always encounter breeders selling their cute pups and kittens under the bridges near exits of amusement parks...so probably really not well bred. 

So probably poor breeding + bad handling are the reasons behind the attack I would guess.


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## Jenny720

This dog has major screws loose.


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## scarfish

here's the deal. nobody here was there. a neighbor said he saw the child giving the dog a treat. i doubt the neighbor was watching the whole time and caught by eye to moments that led up to this. it's hear say and i doubt the neighbor was standing at his window with binoculars gawking the whole time. pic with earlier dog shows little girl hugging it. kinda looks small for a dobie, might be mixed IDK. girl was raised with that dog from birth. prolly tried to bear hug the new dog and dog got spooked and surely over re-acted. sucks it happened. dog should've been on leash for at least the first few days while around cats, other dogs and especially kids. seems like the people here jumped the gun. this wasn't an 8 week old puppy.


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## Jenny720

Right no one was there to witness -the mother was though and it was said the child handed the dog a treat- if you want to assume-a possible hug from a previous picture of a child hugging her own dog(purebred dobie) which they must of been real happy with to get another one- yeah kids do hug their pets. What if to assume the child (accidentally)fell or stepped on the dogs paw -over reacting would be the dog bit the child. This was a mauling not a dog bite. The mother could not this 80lb+ dog off her child and was also mauled in doing so. Dog has a screw loose. So does the dogs previous owner.


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## llombardo

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Woman, 68, Found Dead With Dog Bite Marks to Body: NYPD | NBC New York


If I've learned anything in the last 6 months it's that the media never gets anything right. They do stories without investigating anything and every story is different depending on who is writing it. I've come to the conclusion that unless one was there we will never know the whole story. In the process it causes division amongst people, pretty much any story will cause debate. I have no faith in the media. For example....The only thing that is true in their stories is that someone died, whether it's a dog bite, police shooting, etc. They just report the first thing they hear without knowing the facts. 

The story that is posted above reads

"Neighbors said there were two mixed-breed pit bull dogs belonging to the woman's daughter inside the home. "

Another story reads...
"The woman, who was in the basement with two German Shepherd mixed canines, suffered bite marks on various parts of her body, the source said. The dogs have been removed from the home by Animal Care and Control."

And yet another reads...
"Bradshaw’s daughter told a 911 operator that mother had been eaten by her two German shepherds, which she needed to have removed from the home, a police source said."

So in the end we know the woman died and no one knows what kind of dogs. She could have died by natural causes, she could have been attacked by a person(one report read beaten and bruised) or the dogs could have killed her. 

I don't read past anything other then what the actual fact of the story is...the woman died.


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## newlie

I agree that a healthy skepticism is probably a good thing in this crazy world of ours. However, I do believe that the four year old was killed by the dog and that is enough for me. If the child hugged the dog or somehow in her childish way was hurting the dog, he could have moved away, he could have snapped, he could have even bitten, but he didn't. He killed her. Having done it once, there is every reason to think he might do it again. I don't think we can take that chance.


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## MineAreWorkingline

llombardo said:


> If I've learned anything in the last 6 months it's that the media never gets anything right. They do stories without investigating anything and every story is different depending on who is writing it. I've come to the conclusion that unless one was there we will never know the whole story. In the process it causes division amongst people, pretty much any story will cause debate. I have no faith in the media. For example....The only thing that is true in their stories is that someone died, whether it's a dog bite, police shooting, etc. They just report the first thing they hear without knowing the facts.
> 
> The story that is posted above reads
> 
> "Neighbors said there were two mixed-breed pit bull dogs belonging to the woman's daughter inside the home. "
> 
> Another story reads...
> "The woman, who was in the basement with two German Shepherd mixed canines, suffered bite marks on various parts of her body, the source said. The dogs have been removed from the home by Animal Care and Control."
> 
> And yet another reads...
> "Bradshaw’s daughter told a 911 operator that mother had been eaten by her two German shepherds, which she needed to have removed from the home, a police source said."
> 
> So in the end we know the woman died and no one knows what kind of dogs. She could have died by natural causes, she could have been attacked by a person(one report read beaten and bruised) or the dogs could have killed her.
> 
> I don't read past anything other then what the actual fact of the story is...the woman died.


The media reports the facts as they have them. They cannot wait until the results of an autopsy report or for photos of the dogs to become available if that even happens, to report the news. You don't wait years to see who wins the war to report on the current status. The media's job is to keep people abreast of the current status as is known to them.

I have read over a dozen articles on this death looking to see if any other information had come available and the one thing they all had in common was that each and every one stated the breed as Pit Bull mixes, as identified by neighbors who are familiar with the dogs. 

If the dogs are now being labeled GSD mixes, as we all know on this forum that this is not characteristic behavior for our breed and the next logical question would be mixed with what breed? 

There is no doubt in my mind that if somebody owns German Shepherds, they are fans of the breed. I believe the same with Pit Bulls. It has been proven repeatedly with the mythology and lies promoted by those who advocate for Pit Bulls that they will stoop to no low, even going as far as to accuse another neighbor's dogs of another breed, when their own child is mauled by the family Pit Bull to cover for the breed doing the deed, and some mothers have had their days in court and been convicted resulting in loss of custody of their own children rather than blame the breed that did the deed. Ho hum, that is not news anymore.

But to get to the point, anybody forced to live next door to a Pit Bull is only too painfully aware of what breed lives next door. They are the ones forced to change their lifestyles to ensure their own safety to accommodate their neighbor's choice of breed. I will put money on what the neighbors have to say, not on an owner of a breed notorious for throwing other breeds under the bus so as not to tarnish the Pit Bull's sullied, but well earned, reputation.

Deceit, lies and obfuscation to protect the breed doing the deed serves little purpose but to get innocent people and pets killed and to advance the cause of breed specific legislation.

I linked to that article because I felt it was relevant to the topic at hand. I would like to think others will not use the link as a springboard to derail this topic to push their personal agenda.


----------



## GypsyGhost

MAWL, I mean you no disrespect, but could you not turn this thread into another anti-Pit Bull thread? Why is a thread about a horrible, horrible tragedy involving a Dobe suddenly being used to bring up how terrible Pit Bulls are?


----------



## llombardo

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The media reports the facts as they have them. They cannot wait until the results of an autopsy report or for photos of the dogs to become available if that even happens, to report the news. You don't wait years to see who wins the war to report on the current status. The media's job is to keep people abreast of the current status as is known to them.
> 
> I have read over a dozen articles on this death looking to see if any other information had come available and the one thing they all had in common was that each and every one stated the breed as Pit Bull mixes, as identified by neighbors who are familiar with the dogs.
> 
> If the dogs are now being labeled GSD mixes, as we all know on this forum that this is not characteristic behavior for our breed and the next logical question would be mixed with what breed?
> 
> There is no doubt in my mind that if somebody owns German Shepherds, they are fans of the breed. I believe the same with Pit Bulls. It has been proven repeatedly with the mythology and lies promoted by those who advocate for Pit Bulls that they will stoop to no low, even going as far as to accuse another neighbor's dogs of another breed, when their own child is mauled by the family Pit Bull to cover for the breed doing the deed, and some mothers have had their days in court and been convicted resulting in loss of custody of their own children rather than blame the breed that did the deed. Ho hum, that is not news anymore.
> 
> But to get to the point, anybody forced to live next door to a Pit Bull is only too painfully aware of what breed lives next door. They are the ones forced to change their lifestyles to ensure their own safety to accommodate their neighbor's choice of breed. I will put money on what the neighbors have to say, not on an owner of a breed notorious for throwing other breeds under the bus so as not to tarnish the Pit Bull's sullied, but well earned, reputation.
> 
> Deceit, lies and obfuscation to protect the breed doing the deed serves little purpose but to get innocent people and pets killed and to advance the cause of breed specific legislation.
> 
> I linked to that article because I felt it was relevant to the topic at hand. I would like to think others will not use the link as a springboard to derail this topic to push their personal agenda.


Why is everything a pit bull? Let's not go there. 


My point is that all media does it put something out there. You found the articles that all stated pit bulls/mixes. I found articles that said German shepherd/mixes. They don't have to wait for an autopsy to name the breed of dog, just don't name it until they know and it's been confirmed. 

I'm not going to discuss the pit bull breed any longer. After the last post a beautiful pit was found with rope embedded units neck and bite wounds all over her body, she gave kisses to her rescuers;which were police due to the high crime area), kisses to the vet and went to a foster home where she proved to be a very good dog and is now in a home enjoying life. I have an open mind and I know that any breed can kill. If someone says a dog was a doberman or maybe a mix I'm not jumping to oh it must be a pit bull mix because they are the only dogs that kill. They are not the only dogs that kill. If a person wants to think they are then so be it, but it's not always the case. I own GSDs and I know what kind of damage they can do. A dog can bite someone in the leg and cause them to bleed out, so it really doesn't matter on the visciousness of an attack, if it's the right place on the body a poodle can kill someone. 

So let's move on and stay on the topic of the breed that wasn't a pit bull in one of these cases and most likely both that have been listed.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

llombardo said:


> My point is that all media does it put something out there. You found the articles that all stated pit bulls/mixes. I found articles that said German shepherd/mixes. They don't have to wait for an autopsy to name the breed of dog, just don't name it until they know and it's been confirmed.
> 
> I'm not going to discuss the pit bull breed any longer. After the last post a beautiful pit was found with rope embedded units neck and bite wounds all over her body, she gave kisses to her rescuers;which were police due to the high crime area), kisses to the vet and went to a foster home where she proved to be a very good dog and is now in a home enjoying life. I have an open mind and I know that any breed can kill. If someone says a dog was a doberman or maybe a mix I'm not jumping to oh it must be a pit bull mix because they are the only dogs that kill. They are not the only dogs that kill. If a person wants to think they are then so be it, but it's not always the case. I own GSDs and I know what kind of damage they can do. A dog can bite someone in the leg and cause them to bleed out, so it really doesn't matter on the visciousness of an attack, if it's the right place on the body a poodle can kill someone.
> 
> So let's move on and stay on the topic of the breed that wasn't a pit bull in one of these cases and most likely both that have been listed.


The point is that the media puts out whatever it has. It is not the media's job to withhold eyewitness comments or any information. They are responsible for getting the information out to the public. As adults, we are responsible for what we do with that information.

Since your last post, multiple dogs and cats have been killed by Pit Bulls. Many of those Pits had kisses for people too. 

Dogs Bite Decatur Al: ANKENY IA - 2 PIT BULLS "ONCE AGAIN" ESCAPED OUT A DOOR AND THROUGH A FENCE AND KILLED THE FIRST LIVE THING THEY CAME TO...A BELOVED 5-POUND CHIHUAHUA "TT" IN HER OWN YARD

In the real world, other dog's lives matter too, not just that of Pit Bulls.

An open mind knows that although any dog can kill, most don't, and there are way too many breeds that have never, or rarely, killed to make a statement that would diminish the dangers of one breed that repeatedly kills.

A well placed bite that leads to a bleed out should NEVER be equated to an all out attack like the two dogs mentioned on this thread.

I am not the one that is beating this reported Pit Bull attack to death. I merely linked to another current dog attack story. I am simply the one being accused of it by those who have an agenda to push.

Please keep the topic on current severe dog attacks.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

GypsyGhost said:


> MAWL, I mean you no disrespect, but could you not turn this thread into another anti-Pit Bull thread? Why is a thread about a horrible, horrible tragedy involving a Dobe suddenly being used to bring up how terrible Pit Bulls are?


I mean you no disrespect. All I did was link to another current reported dog bite related fatality on a thread about the topic. Was there one that I did not report? Please don't make it sound like a cherry picked an incident well beyond my control. 

The point is not that I am turning this into another Pit Bull thread. I just linked to a current, relevant article, IMO, and made NO comment. It is those that have an agenda to push that are turning it into another Pit Bull thread.


----------



## WateryTart

newlie said:


> To be offered a treat by a child and go for her throat? I think you said it right, Selzer, that dog has a screw loose. Having seen what it is capable of, the only reasonable choice is to put it to sleep.


Agreed.

If the dog had been provoked, I'd be very angry on its behalf. It isn't safe to have a dog that will react that strongly to provocation, so I would probably still be on the side of putting it down, but I'd be angry about it and would certainly blame the child's parents and/or the other owner depending on what happened.

No provocation? Done. You're done. You can't be among humans because you are completely unstable.


----------



## WateryTart

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I mean you no disrespect. All I did was link to another current reported dog bite related fatality on a thread about the topic. Was there one that I did not report? Please don't make it sound like a cherry picked an incident well beyond my control.
> 
> The point is not that I am turning this into another Pit Bull thread. I just linked to a current, relevant article, IMO, and made NO comment. It is those that have an agenda to push that are turning it into another Pit Bull thread.


To be 100% fair, I can kind of understand where she's coming from. You posted an article that featured a pit bull. I don't think you intended it to be a slam on pits, but it's reasonably foreseeable that people would take it that way, particularly on a forum where a lot of people do like and/or own pit bulls. It's a little disingenuous to say it is all someone else's fault if the thread goes to the pit bull topic. You introduced it and people responded, as is not unusual. I'm totally on your side if you say, "I didn't *intend *to turn it into another pit bull thread," but I think it's reasonable for someone to say, "Hey, you did introduce the topic."


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

WateryTart said:


> To be 100% fair, I can kind of understand where she's coming from. You posted an article that featured a pit bull. I don't think you intended it to be a slam on pits, but it's reasonably foreseeable that people would take it that way, particularly on a forum where a lot of people do like and/or own pit bulls. It's a little disingenuous to say it is all someone else's fault if the thread goes to the pit bull topic. You introduced it and people responded, as is not unusual. I'm totally on your side if you say, "I didn't *intend *to turn it into another pit bull thread," but I think it's reasonable for someone to say, "Hey, you did introduce the topic."


Gotta disagree on this one.:smile2:

I made no comment, merely posted a link. And I do agree with much of what you said.

BUT it was not me that got on a Pit Bull pedestal, for or against. But is was me that was targeted for the blame. Shooting the messenger is not fair.

And in all fairness, regarding the people who like or own Pit Bulls, there are a number of people on here who don't like, or have been attacked or had loved ones attacked by, Pit Bulls. Many of the victims are members here, and many of the victims are German Shepherds. Regardless of which way one views the problem, this is still a German Shepherd forum and, if anything, support should be in favor of the German Shepherds, especially the puppies, that are victims of attack.

I am under the impression that this forum is for a positive and supportive experience for German Shepherd owners, the good, the bad, and the ugly, not a springboard for how great Pit Bulls are.


----------



## GypsyGhost

I was unaware that this German Shepherd forum was a place to constantly discuss pit bulls, but I guess you learn something new every day!

Seriously, MAWL... you have to realize how often you post negative things on this forum about pit bulls, right? And that you come across as argumentative, even if that is not your intent? I'm truly sorry that you and so many others have had such negative experiences with pit bulls. I'm sorry that there are bad dog owners, and I hate that shelters and rescues don't do a better job about representing what these dogs are truly capable of doing. But I don't know that constantly arguing about it on the internet is going to do anything other than frustrate people...


----------



## WateryTart

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Gotta disagree on this one.:smile2:
> 
> I made no comment, merely posted a link. And I do agree with much of what you said.
> 
> BUT it was not me that got on a Pit Bull pedestal, for or against. But is was me that was targeted for the blame. Shooting the messenger is not fair.
> 
> And in all fairness, regarding the people who like or own Pit Bulls, there are a number of people on here who don't like, or have been attacked or had loved ones attacked by, Pit Bulls. Many of the victims are members here, and many of the victims are German Shepherds. Regardless of which way one views the problem, this is still a German Shepherd forum and, if anything, support should be in favor of the German Shepherds, especially the puppies, that are victims of attack.
> 
> I am under the impression that this forum is for a positive and supportive experience for German Shepherd owners, the good, the bad, and the ugly, not a springboard for how great Pit Bulls are.


Okay. I get that - the point about people on this forum also having been the victims of attack along with their dogs. I see what you're saying.

However, I don't really think this is shooting the messenger. That would be like you having to tell me that my loved one was hit by a car, and I get upset with you instead of with the driver. You would have nothing to do with my loved one being hit because you weren't driving or even in the car. In this case, you did bring up the article, so I can't agree that you were the messenger who was unfairly shot. 

Going back to your example about dog waste disposal laws, I understood your point: It wasn't about "should," but about "would." Of course we all agree people should pick up their dog's waste, but you said that realistically they won't and gave some logical reasons why. I didn't totally agree with you, but I understood the point you were making. This is the same thing. Maybe people *shouldn't* go from X to Y, but they *do*, and it's reasonable to anticipate that they might.

So I think it makes sense that someone would attribute at least some of the responsibility to you when you post an article involving pit bulls, and then pit bulls come into the discussion.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

GypsyGhost said:


> I was unaware that this German Shepherd forum was a place to constantly discuss pit bulls, but I guess you learn something new every day!
> 
> Seriously, MAWL... you have to realize how often you post negative things on this forum about pit bulls, right? And that you come across as argumentative, even if that is not your intent? I'm truly sorry that you and so many others have had such negative experiences with pit bulls. I'm sorry that there are bad dog owners, and I hate that shelters and rescues don't do a better job about representing what these dogs are truly capable of doing. But I don't know that constantly arguing about it on the internet is going to do anything other than frustrate people...


Thank you for your understanding, but please direct the part about those that argued to those parties, i.e., LLombardo, not me. I posted a link and walked away, no argument here. It was not me who started a bruhaha.


----------



## GypsyGhost

Sigh. You may not get as heated as others, but your persistence in your beliefs and the sheer number of posts you produce espousing said beliefs has the same effect. But I give up. Pit bulls are terrible, you don't argue, fine, whatever.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

WateryTart said:


> Okay. I get that - the point about people on this forum also having been the victims of attack along with their dogs. I see what you're saying.
> 
> However, I don't really think this is shooting the messenger. That would be like you having to tell me that my loved one was hit by a car, and I get upset with you instead of with the driver. You would have nothing to do with my loved one being hit because you weren't driving or even in the car. In this case, you did bring up the article, so I can't agree that you were the messenger who was unfairly shot.
> 
> Going back to your example about dog waste disposal laws, I understood your point: It wasn't about "should," but about "would." Of course we all agree people should pick up their dog's waste, but you said that realistically they won't and gave some logical reasons why. I didn't totally agree with you, but I understood the point you were making. This is the same thing. Maybe people *shouldn't* go from X to Y, but they *do*, and it's reasonable to anticipate that they might.
> 
> So I think it makes sense that someone would attribute at least some of the responsibility to you when you post an article involving pit bulls, and then pit bulls come into the discussion.


Have to agree to disagree. A messenger is merely somebody that delivers a message, in this case a link. End of story. 

I will not be bullied into not linking to what IMO is a pertinent link based solely on the breed. I will not be a part of the cover up because some might find the truth offensive. If the breed in the link had been a Collie, there would never have been any further comments directed at me. So let's be honest, am I being targeted because I linked a subsequent dog attack or is the source of contention that I exposed yet another Pit Bull attack? And how is that my fault? And should I be censured for something that is well beyond my control?


----------



## WateryTart

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Have to agree to disagree. A messenger is merely somebody that delivers a message, in this case a link. End of story.
> 
> I will not be bullied into not linking to what IMO is a pertinent link based solely on the breed. I will not be a part of the cover up because some might find the truth offensive. If the breed in the link had been a Collie, there would never have been any further comments directed at me. So let's be honest, am I being targeted because I linked a subsequent dog attack or is the source of contention that I exposed yet another Pit Bull attack? And how is that my fault? And should I be censured for something that is well beyond my control?


Honestly, I think it's because you hang onto a position with the tenacity of a pit bull. People see the link, and they think, "Here we go again" based on past history. The argument of fairness is kind of a straw man, because you (general) can't do X that leads to Y with high reliability and then at another instance do X and be surprised that Y happened.

There is not a conspiracy theory here. Nobody is bullying you. It shouldn't surprise me (based on X leading to Y argument above), but it always does when you place something out there, act all aggrieved at the totally foreseeable consequence, and then try to gaslight people into thinking it's actually their fault for having a reaction.

But I don't want to argue, so I'll just agree to disagree.


----------



## GypsyGhost

waterytart said:


> honestly, i think it's because you hang onto a position with the tenacity of a pit bull. People see the link, and they think, "here we go again" based on past history. The argument of fairness is kind of a straw man, because you (general) can't do x that leads to y with high reliability and then at another instance do x and be surprised that y happened.
> 
> There is not a conspiracy theory here. Nobody is bullying you. It shouldn't surprise me (based on x leading to y argument above), but it always does when you place something out there, act all aggrieved at the totally foreseeable consequence, and then try to gaslight people into thinking it's actually their fault for having a reaction.
> 
> But i don't want to argue, so i'll just agree to disagree.


Thank you. Exactly this.


----------



## llombardo

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Have to agree to disagree. A messenger is merely somebody that delivers a message, in this case a link. End of story.
> 
> I will not be bullied into not linking to what IMO is a pertinent link based solely on the breed. I will not be a part of the cover up because some might find the truth offensive. If the breed in the link had been a Collie, there would never have been any further comments directed at me. So let's be honest, am I being targeted because I linked a subsequent dog attack or is the source of contention that I exposed yet another Pit Bull attack? And how is that my fault? And should I be censured for something that is well beyond my control?



Just to clarify...my post in response to the link you provided was based on the media throwing out misinformation at every turn. It had nothing to do with breed but the misinformation that 3 different media outlets wrote about. The story you linked just happened to be a good example of how different stories circulate depending on who wrote them. Nothing more nothing less.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

WateryTart said:


> Honestly, I think it's because you hang onto a position with the tenacity of a pit bull. People see the link, and they think, "Here we go again" based on past history. The argument of fairness is kind of a straw man, because you (general) can't do X that leads to Y with high reliability and then at another instance do X and be surprised that Y happened.
> 
> There is not a conspiracy theory here. Nobody is bullying you. It shouldn't surprise me (based on X leading to Y argument above), but it always does when you place something out there, act all aggrieved at the totally foreseeable consequence, and then try to gaslight people into thinking it's actually their fault for having a reaction.
> 
> But I don't want to argue, so I'll just agree to disagree.


People see the link and think, here we go again? To what? Somebody else, not necessarily me, starting an harangue about Pit Bulls, like on this thread? Or maybe they are thinking here we go again, yet another Pit Bull attack? Which one is it that is so offensive? But don't answer that, as you can see from my original link, I had no desire to discuss anything. I merely posted a second dog fatality in as many days on a topic started by somebody else. Odd they aren't being put through the ringer for posting a report of a Doberman attack. I guess breed matters.


----------



## llombardo

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Thank you for your understanding, but please direct the part about those that argued to those parties, i.e., LLombardo, not me. I posted a link and walked away, no argument here. It was not me who started a bruhaha.


Um neither did I, it was in fact your response to my opinion about the MEDIA that took it further. I used the link you provided and came up with 3 different stories immediately.


----------



## llombardo

llombardo said:


> If I've learned anything in the last 6 months it's that the media never gets anything right. They do stories without investigating anything and every story is different depending on who is writing it. I've come to the conclusion that unless one was there we will never know the whole story. In the process it causes division amongst people, pretty much any story will cause debate. I have no faith in the media. For example....The only thing that is true in their stories is that someone died, whether it's a dog bite, police shooting, etc. They just report the first thing they hear without knowing the facts.
> 
> The story that is posted above reads
> 
> "Neighbors said there were two mixed-breed pit bull dogs belonging to the woman's daughter inside the home. "
> 
> Another story reads...
> "The woman, who was in the basement with two German Shepherd mixed canines, suffered bite marks on various parts of her body, the source said. The dogs have been removed from the home by Animal Care and Control."
> 
> And yet another reads...
> "Bradshaw’s daughter told a 911 operator that mother had been eaten by her two German shepherds, which she needed to have removed from the home, a police source said."
> 
> So in the end we know the woman died and no one knows what kind of dogs. She could have died by natural causes, she could have been attacked by a person(one report read beaten and bruised) or the dogs could have killed her.
> 
> I don't read past anything other then what the actual fact of the story is...the woman died.


My post on the link provided.

Then your post


MineAreWorkingline said:


> The media reports the facts as they have them. They cannot wait until the results of an autopsy report or for photos of the dogs to become available if that even happens, to report the news. You don't wait years to see who wins the war to report on the current status. The media's job is to keep people abreast of the current status as is known to them.
> 
> I have read over a dozen articles on this death looking to see if any other information had come available and the one thing they all had in common was that each and every one stated the breed as Pit Bull mixes, as identified by neighbors who are familiar with the dogs.
> 
> If the dogs are now being labeled GSD mixes, as we all know on this forum that this is not characteristic behavior for our breed and the next logical question would be mixed with what breed?
> 
> There is no doubt in my mind that if somebody owns German Shepherds, they are fans of the breed. I believe the same with Pit Bulls. It has been proven repeatedly with the mythology and lies promoted by those who advocate for Pit Bulls that they will stoop to no low, even going as far as to accuse another neighbor's dogs of another breed, when their own child is mauled by the family Pit Bull to cover for the breed doing the deed, and some mothers have had their days in court and been convicted resulting in loss of custody of their own children rather than blame the breed that did the deed. Ho hum, that is not news anymore.
> 
> But to get to the point, anybody forced to live next door to a Pit Bull is only too painfully aware of what breed lives next door. They are the ones forced to change their lifestyles to ensure their own safety to accommodate their neighbor's choice of breed. I will put money on what the neighbors have to say, not on an owner of a breed notorious for throwing other breeds under the bus so as not to tarnish the Pit Bull's sullied, but well earned, reputation.
> 
> Deceit, lies and obfuscation to protect the breed doing the deed serves little purpose but to get innocent people and pets killed and to advance the cause of breed specific legislation.
> 
> I linked to that article because I felt it was relevant to the topic at hand. I would like to think others will not use the link as a springboard to derail this topic to push their personal agenda.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

llombardo said:


> Just to clarify...my post in response to the link you provided was based on the media throwing out misinformation at every turn. It had nothing to do with breed but the misinformation that 3 different media outlets wrote about. The story you linked just happened to be a good example of how different stories circulate depending on who wrote them. Nothing more nothing less.


You will never convince me or many others on here of that. After the last Pit Bull thread, my inbox was inundated with links to other Pit Bull threads on here where you cast yourself in the lead role of Pit Bull worshipers. It had everything to do with breed.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

llombardo said:


> Um neither did I, it was in fact your response to my opinion about the MEDIA that took it further. I used the link you provided and came up with 3 different stories immediately.


Yes, you did. Your comments were the catalyst to all of this, not my link. It is posted for all to see. I posted and walked away, so did every body else, you couldn't.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

llombardo said:


> My post on the link provided.
> 
> Then your post


So I responded to your harangue that you originally directed to me but did not bother to post, your point?


----------



## llombardo

MineAreWorkingline said:


> You will never convince me or many others on here of that. After the last Pit Bull thread, my inbox was inundated with links to other Pit Bull threads on here where you cast yourself in the lead role of Pit Bull worshipers. It had everything to do with breed.


I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I simply stated my opinion on a story. I do not care to argue about the pit bull breed with anyone. We all have different opinions and that is exactly what they are. 

Do not try and turn this on me, I stress again that my post in response to your link was strictly about media. My next post was slightly more defensive but I still do not intend to argue about it. 

Let it GO:smile2:


----------



## WateryTart

MineAreWorkingline said:


> People see the link and think, here we go again? To what? Somebody else, not necessarily me, starting an harangue about Pit Bulls, like on this thread? Or maybe they are thinking here we go again, yet another Pit Bull attack? Which one is it that is so offensive? But don't answer that, as you can see from my original link, I had no desire to discuss anything. I merely posted a second dog fatality in as many days on a topic started by somebody else. Odd they aren't being put through the ringer for posting a report of a Doberman attack. I guess breed matters.


I don't think either one is objectively offensive on its face. There's nothing objectively wrong with posting a link. But people will respond to it, because it was posted.

I do think that you're refusing to see how you're part of the "but for" cause in pit bull debates. You read as being very set that you are not at fault, not in any way responsible. I understand that you don't feel any of the ensuing discussion can be attributed to you, but I think on a purely objective level, it can.

Post article. People read. People read "pit bull." People respond. It isn't really so crazy; it's rather predictable, in fact.


----------



## llombardo

WateryTart said:


> I don't think either one is objectively offensive on its face. There's nothing objectively wrong with posting a link. But people will respond to it, because it was posted.
> 
> I do think that you're refusing to see how you're part of the "but for" cause in pit bull debates. You read as being very set that you are not at fault, not in any way responsible. I understand that you don't feel any of the ensuing discussion can be attributed to you, but I think on a purely objective level, it can.
> 
> Post article. People read. People read "pit bull." People respond. It isn't really so crazy; it's rather predictable, in fact.


Next time I'll just use any other story out there, but I can almost bet it would be the same thing.


----------



## gsdsar

Stop the back and forth bickering!!!


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

llombardo said:


> I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I simply stated my opinion on a story. I do not care to argue about the pit bull breed with anyone. We all have different opinions and that is exactly what they are.
> 
> Do not try and turn this on me, I stress again that my post in response to your link was strictly about media. My next post was slightly more defensive but I still do not intend to argue about it.
> 
> Let it GO:smile2:


Turn what on you? Did you or did you not post against my comment? 

You should have never started and now you need to let it go.

Sorry mod, I just saw your comment.


----------



## WateryTart

gsdsar said:


> Stop the back and forth bickering!!!


I'm sorry. You're right - it's derailing from the actual topic. I'll quit.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

WateryTart said:


> I don't think either one is objectively offensive on its face. There's nothing objectively wrong with posting a link. But people will respond to it, because it was posted.
> 
> I do think that you're refusing to see how you're part of the "but for" cause in pit bull debates. You read as being very set that you are not at fault, not in any way responsible. I understand that you don't feel any of the ensuing discussion can be attributed to you, but I think on a purely objective level, it can.
> 
> Post article. People read. People read "pit bull." People respond. It isn't really so crazy; it's rather predictable, in fact.


I agree to your but for comment, but I will not take responsibility for any attacks.


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## selzer

We don't know anything, really, about the lady who died. What would happen if you had a heart attack or a stroke. Might your dog try to drag you to somewhere -- an English Setter dragged his owner out of the woods where the guy was hunting when he had a heart attack. Saved his life. What would your dogs do if you died of natural causes, or was unconscious. Might them try to get you to move or to move you? I don't know. We don't know about that one until the coroner rules on the cause of death. 

But this one, well, everyone knows what I think about it. Don't want to be a broken record. I am surprised it is still a question, really. The kid was no threat at all. I don't care if the kid was trying to ride the dobe like a pony. Growl, snap, bite. Mauling a child to death and putting a grown woman in the hospital -- there is nothing any child can do to cause that kind of reaction in a stable dog.


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## newlie

You know, I know that probably some people will disagree with this, but I even feel sorry for the original owner. The reports I read said that he had just left the house when he got the call. He came racing back, tried to help the mom do CPR and then was crying (along with everybody else) when it became apparent that there was little hope. I keep thinking that maybe he hadn't had the dog long and so had not had the opportunity to see this side of it. Maybe there were no kids living in his house. I don't know. I guess I keep thinking "There but for the grace of God go I." What if that were me? I would be absolutely devastated if any dog of mine seriously hurt someone. It gives me cold chills to even think about it.


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## Chip18

LOL ... I've been away for a day or two. I come back and now the "Dobbie" has turned into a "Pit Bull" "WTH???"


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## selzer

newlie said:


> You know, I know that probably some people will disagree with this, but I even feel sorry for the original owner. The reports I read said that he had just left the house when he got the call. He came racing back, tried to help the mom do CPR and then was crying (along with everybody else) when it became apparent that there was little hope. I keep thinking that maybe he hadn't had the dog long and so had not had the opportunity to see this side of it. Maybe there were no kids living in his house. I don't know. I guess I keep thinking "There but for the grace of God go I." What if that were me? I would be absolutely devastated if any dog of mine seriously hurt someone. It gives me cold chills to even think about it.


And the breeder. How do you get over a thing like that?


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## Chip18

newlie said:


> You know, I know that probably some people will disagree with this, but I even feel sorry for the original owner. The reports I read said that he had just left the house when he got the call. He came racing back, tried to help the mom do CPR and then was crying (along with everybody else) when it became apparent that there was little hope. I keep thinking that maybe he hadn't had the dog long and so had not had the opportunity to see this side of it. Maybe there were no kids living in his house. I don't know. I guess I keep thinking "There but for the grace of God go I." What if that were me? I would be absolutely devastated if any dog of mine seriously hurt someone. It gives me cold chills to even think about it.


Thank you and no it's not just you! It's easy to "assume" the guy was just inept?? 

But you know what if he wasn't, and as you say ... he had no kids??? I only discovered by the nature of my work that "Rocky" had some "toddler" issues??? I've only done a couple rescues and they had no kid issues?? But it was not something I was specifically looking for?? 

The hows and why of this happening are actually important, at least in Working Dog rescue.


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