# May Return Our Puppy - Need Advice, Please...



## klewicki (Nov 11, 2008)

My husband and I picked up our pup from the airport last Friday. We spent the weekend (and today) with him. He was good on the ride home (probably tired, hungry, and scared), but once Saturday morning hit he was a different from what we anticipated. 

We got the pup from a reputable breeder in Washington state. He was sired by the 2007 AKC Working Dog Sport GSDCA National Championship Cup winner. He was selected for us based on the temperment we were looking for - passive, trainable, eager to please, personable as we wanted him to get his K-9 Good Citizen & Therapy Dog Cert. This was known by the breeder and they felt he was good fit for these skillsets. His only hiccup was "mouthiness" and "biting" at 8 weeks. They advised they would work on this through the Puppy Training Program we purchased and would fix it prior to him being sent to us. 

On 11-11-08, I got an email from his trainer, advising he was remedied of all biting and that she loved him, he was her "alabaster doll." We were very excited to hear this and started counting down the days.

On 11-21-08, we picked him up. We spent all weekend with him. The biting got worse. He ripped clothes, broke skin. He was also supposed to be acclimated to a crate; however, when we put him in it he freaked. I was right there with him, providing touch, calming words, and laid next to the crate. He freaked out enough to break open 2 paws and started bleeding.

He is also expressing extreme dominance. He enjoys our yard but will not leave it. He lays down, grab a hold of his lease, and growls - not budging for a walk. He is fine in our yard. 

Lastly, the breeder wanted to know his name. This was provided when the pup was 8 weeks. He arrived to us at 14.5 weeks. He has no idea what his name is.

So, I contacted the breeder Saturday looking for advice *note: advice* about the biting. He was very quick to advise (and bold) the dog has to bond with me (makes sense...), and that he has no reason to listen to me or respect me as I didn't do his training. I understand this with commands like sit, stay, etc, but with biting and aggression?? Biting is a big deal. And if he doesn't listen to anybody other than his trainer from the breeder, then why did I purchase this? They recommended it!

We asked for a call back 4x of the breeder. The office manager kept resonding via email advising is we wish to send him back, we had 72 hours. This is today. I asked if I can give him more time, as the breeder advises, maybe a week or so, to make sure he calms down, the breeder won't go for it. The office manager has been defensive since Saturday - making me wonder if there is more to this story. I do know the pup had a new trainer and his training started later than expected due to bad weather, hence keeping him 2.5 extra weeks.

So we are in a bind... do we send him back? We will be out about $2K, but at least not the whole amount. I just expected more from a dog totaling $4k. C'mon, his name??? The promises (in print) just don't seem to be there. I would like to stick with the pup, but what happens if he doesn't snap out of it. He will never be a Good Citizen/Therapy Dog. Furthermore, with his dominance and biting, he cannot be introduced to our cats. And what about children?? The pup's dad is Schutzhund trained. I am wondering if I got the right dog.

HELP. Please no flames. I am really trying here, but feel my breeder threw in the towel already...

Thank you,
-K


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## Tina & Dave (Apr 19, 2004)

I think you are asking a whole lot from a small puppy in such a 'short' period of time. Why not wait another couple of weeks to allow the pup to get use to his new surroundings and then re-address this situation which sounds like nothing more than normal puppy behaviour. 

T


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

i am certainly no expert and there are many here who know much more than i do about training as it relates to this type of situation. this having been said, my feeling is that three days is not enough time for a 14 week old to adjust to flying, a totally new situation, totally new people, etc. just simply not enough time. 

all guarantees aside, when you bring a dog into your home and especially into your heart, they (guarantees), mean nothing because your only alternative is to send the dog back. sad for both you and the pup.


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## klewicki (Nov 11, 2008)

I know he needs time. I have asked for this of the breeder. The thing is after 72 hours, even if he doesn't snap out of it, he is mine. $4K is a lot of money. I saved for a year to get him. 

If they are so confident they trained him right, then why can't they give me a week to get him acclimated confirming this behavior is just him adjusting and temporary?

I owned a business and am a believer of "put your money where your mouth is." I am not getting that and THAT concerns me.

Again... his name? No ear perks, nada.


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## valb (Sep 2, 2004)

They can be a handful, and while your breeder may have dropped
the ball a little bit, I don't see how you can say he will never be
a Good Citizen/Therapy dog. Far too early to make that kind of
statement.

I agree, give it time. Take a deep breath and go to work on all
the things your pup needs right now. He'll learn his name pretty
quick, I would bet.

I remember when we got our little "ball of fluff" and how my husband
used to call me at work saying "This little thing won't quit biting
me" and I got soooo worried. But you get through it, and things get
a lot better. Really, they do.

If it were me, I wouldn't give this pup back.


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## Jacqui (Feb 5, 2001)

> Quote:I asked if I can give him more time, as the breeder advises, maybe a week or so, to make sure he calms down, the breeder won't go for it.


Apart from a few other things, the above really has alarm bells ringing for me. Any 'good' breeder worth his or her salt should take back one of their own puppies if it's found that the puppy is not fitting in etc, but then it's unrealistic of the breeder to expect you and the puppy to settle with other after just 72hrs!! 

I'm not a breeder, but hopefully some of the great breeders on this board will be along to offer their help....my gut instinct would be to send the puppy back....that's a heck of a lot of dollars for amongst other things, puppy that doesn't even know his name!

Good luck with your predicamant...


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

washington state, 4k for a working line puppy. I pretty much have a guess who it's from. 

You need to find a local trainer,class and do the training yourself. Do a search on teaching bite inhibition on yahoo/google. As for the crate, start associating it with something positive. Give a treat in the crate, feed in the crate. Make it fun. As for the dominance issue, most is genetic, but I don't like the growling esp. that young in a puppy. I assume only a few months old. Training, training, training by YOU. 

And now.

As for the cat thing, if it is who I think it is, there is someone else on pedigreedatabase that bought a dog that was supposedly good with cats (older dog). Ended up not to be the case. But since your pup is still pretty young, hopefully not over the top prey drive, you can work on not allowing him to go after the cat. Leash him to you so he bonds with you and is under control.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Have you ever had a gsd before? 

This sounds like a normal gsd pup to me, especially one who has high drive. They are a lot of work. We call them gators. When I adopted Rafi at one year old he would grab his leash and growl too--because he wanted to play tug. Bloodying his paws on the crate is a bit extreme but almost every week there is someone on here talking about how their new puppy was up all night screaming and flinging her/himself against the side of the crate. The first week is a big transition. 

I know that I have wanted to return foster puppies and adopted puppies (I've never purchased a dog so I can't address that) because I forgot how much work puppies were! 

That said, this does not sound like a very responsible, reputable or caring breeder nor one who effectively trains their pups. I know some of the breeders on here start their pups on all kinds of training before they go home at 8-10 weeks, for no extra charge. I also think the breeder should be willing to exchange the pup without extra charge if this is not the right fit for your family. I would read your contract carefully.


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## Jazzstorm (Nov 29, 2005)

<span style="color: #3333FF">Is he your first german shepherd puppy? </span>


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## Maryn (Feb 15, 2008)

I have no clue who the breeder is, but $4k, a window of 72 hours to return a pup, and speaking to an 'office manager'....I don't like that at all.

Way too cold, as if you just bought an expensive electronic item.


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## littledmc17 (Apr 9, 2008)

Its a PUPPY!!!
and a GSD puppy to boot
give him some time 3 days is nothing


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## klewicki (Nov 11, 2008)

He is my first GSD puppy. I had been around older ones though. I have a very close friend with one. I did my due diligence. I really felt a GSD was a good fit for what I hoped to do with him - that is, if he WANTED to be a good citizen/therapy dog. I read, I studied, I prepared. I found trainers (thought the breeder was the way to go for the basic obedience), etc. 

I also picked the breeder for this being my first time. They seemed to have a lot of testimonials from first time owners - they did the boot camp, all was OK. 

I really tried to prepare.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Calm down, deep breath. You're expecting a lot from a 3 month old who was not trained by you in your house. He's in a new place with new people who he's not sure about. You're expecting him to do things for you, what's his motivation? Do you have tasty pieces of roast beef when he does a good thing? 

He may not like the crate if it's the one he flew in. Buy a new one or get one off craig's list.

Meet Mighty McBitey Mite when he was that age.









I would describe him as trainable, eager to please, personable. The thing in my hand is called a booda tug. Get several and keep them in your pockets for when the puppy wants to bite something.


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## klewicki (Nov 11, 2008)

I have been rewarding everything good with hot dogs and frozen bananas peices - he loves those. I have a couple tugs, he doesn't seem as interested in those, but I have not given up.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

You should return the puppy. It sounds like a very good working puppy you are not prepared for.

Please, I don't mean to be rude, is just that I'm afraid money is going to take a big part on this based on your expectatives of what you paid for. But at the end, when you purchase a pup all you pay is "potential", but all the rest is up to you. Good working dogs are biters, confident and pushy wich can be misleading to think that the dog is dominant, but if you feel that such a small puppy is already too "dominant" to be managed for you then this is not the pup for you.


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## Maryn (Feb 15, 2008)

GSD pups are not a walk in the park. The land-shark/fur gator thing is normal.

I wouldn't have thought so by my female...she was laid back, never bit/mouthed, was smart as a whip and only wanted to make me happy from 12 wks on.

Enter Sieg, the male. Night and day! He lived to shred your hands, feet, socks, pants, the tablecloth, the loveseat, anything he could sink his teeth into. He was slower to learn commands, and yes...even his name.

Once we got past the whirlwind of flying razor teeth and abounding energy....his temperament is FANTASTIC.

It took time, patience, a firm but loving hand, and more time and patience.

At 20.5 weeks he doesn't bite at all, knows sit, down, off, leave it, drop it, out, stay, bring it, paw, high five and will actually sit still for a few minutes at a time LOL

He's eager to learn, lives to please, is outgoing, affectionate, and loves everyone.

Some are diamonds in the rough that you really need to work on to bring out the shine.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

is there a separate contract / guarantee for the training? that is all i would want a refund for... at least partially.

as others have mentioned, based on the problems you're having and his age - you can't really speak on how he'll do with cats, kids, and getting his TDI in a year. my female was as you described even at 9 months when i adopted her... within a few months i already trusted her (more than i probably should) with cats & kids. although she has a very dominant personality - she knows that mom is in charge and if it werent for her HD which causes moodiness recently - i'm more than certain she could be a therapy dog.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I don't mean this as a flame, but as an honest question: Have you ever raised a puppy before?

I ask because the things you are describing are perfectly normal for a pup of this age, yet it seems your expectations are quite different. Also, you are attributing his behavior to things like dominance and aggression, which is completely inaccurate.



> Quote: The biting got worse. He ripped clothes, broke skin.


On the biting: Puppies are very mouthy. Like human children, they do a lot of exploring with their mouths. They also play with their mouths. Amongst the pup's litter, other dogs he's been exposed to, this is perfectly normal canine play. They bite, they chase, they wrestle. If you were another dog, you would consider this entirely appropriate and normal, and since you'd have thicker skin and a nice layer of fur, you also wouldn't find it uncomfortable or problematic. 

One thing I can tell you with certainty is that this is NOT aggression. 14.5 week old pups are not aggressive. They are very playful, and pup play involves a lot of biting. This isn't a temperament issue of any kind. It is a simple case of having a young pup doing what young pups do, because he hasn't yet learned that this sort of thing is unaccpetable to humans.

This is an area where the canine world and the human world can be at odds. A puppy needs to learn that the things that are normal for a canine, are unacceptable when interacting with humans. This requires time and patience. Just because he is mouthy with you doesn't mean the breeder didn't work on this issue. The pup may very well have learned not to be mouthy with the breeder. But because this goes against the very nature of puppies, it is not a behavior that is going to automatically globalize to a new person and new home. The breeder working with him prior to this will likely make your job easier when it comes to teaching him not to be mouthy with you, but it isn't going to happen overnight. Your pup needs to build a relationship with you, which he has not had the time to do yet, and he needs you to show him that the rules he was taught by the breeder also apply with you. I would be asking the breeder for specifics on what techniques they used to curtail mouthing, and mimic those with the pup yourself. This familiarity the pup should have regarding the rules and techniques should help him learn quicker. But it still is going to take a while to happen. You have a baby, to whom mouthing comes naturally as it does to all puppies, and you are asking him to learn a completely different set of rules, and appropriate play behavior, than what nature programmed him with.



> Quote:He was also supposed to be acclimated to a crate; however, when we put him in it he freaked. I was right there with him, providing touch, calming words, and laid next to the crate. He freaked out enough to break open 2 paws and started bleeding.


Again, dogs, especially young pups, do not automatically globalize to completely new environments. Being acclimated to crates by the breeder does not mean a puppy is going to happily and quietly settle in a crate right away his first days in a new home. Because while the crate may be somewhat familiar, NOTHING else is. He doesn't know where he is or who you are. What he knows is that suddenly everything he has come to know and count on as comfortable, familiar and safe in his short life is suddenly absent. And being a dog, he can't understand what is happening, and being a pup he has no life experiences yet to help him cope with the huge amount of stress that causes.

The thing that bothers pups the most about crates isn't the confinement, it's the isolation. They are used to having mom, littermates, maybe other dogs and people, constantly present. When they are suddenly ripped away from that and isolated from everyone they ever knew, it is scary. Likewise, moving to a completely new environment, where nothing is familiar or comfortable, is scary. This is a baby experiencing the greatest trauma of his life. 



> Quote: He is also expressing extreme dominance. He enjoys our yard but will not leave it. He lays down, grab a hold of his lease, and growls - not budging for a walk. He is fine in our yard.


This is NOT dominance. 14.5 week old puppies are not dominant. Period. This is again, perfectly normal puppy behavior.

His behavior is also normal for a puppy who hasn't had leash training yet. Biting and growling at the leash is normal. He doesn't know what that thing is, all he knows is it's waving around in his face and causing uncomfortable pressure. This is frustrating, so he takes that frustration out on his leash.

Dogs also have what is called opposition reflex. This is what makes dogs pull on leash, and what makes dogs refuse to budge when you pull on the leash. When they feel pressure in one direction, they resist that pressure by moving in the other. A puppy refusing to budge when you tug on the leash is another totally normal puppy behavior. Rather than tug on the leash, pet your leg, call him, lure him forward with treats. That will get him to move forward. Tugging will just cause him to hunker down more and refuse to move.




> Quote: Lastly, the breeder wanted to know his name. This was provided when the pup was 8 weeks. He arrived to us at 14.5 weeks. He has no idea what his name is.


Unless you have the exact same voice as the breeder, this doesn't mean anything. Dogs respond to sounds, they have no understanding of names in the way that people do. When they learn their name, it means they have learned a specific set of sounds. Different people have different voices, inflections, tones. This applies to names, commands or anything else. When the tone and pitch of the voice saying the word is different, to the dog it ceases to be the same word with the same meaning. It takes a lot of exposure for a dog to learn that "sit" means "sit" and "down" means "down" and "Fido" means "Fido" regardless of who is saying it and what their voice sounds like. This exposure happens over time. Your pup has not yet had the life experience to afford him the opportunity to learn that lesson. He probably does recognize his name when the breeder says it. It's going to take him a while to learn to recognize it when you say it, because when you say it it sounds completely different from when the breeder says it.

From what you've posted here, I don't see any evidence that the breeder failed with producing a suitable pup for you or with their puppy training program. I do think the breeder failed to make sure you had realistic expectations of what a 14.5 week old puppy is like to live with, what behaviors to expect from a puppy that age, and how to manage them properly. Doesn't sound like anything is wrong with your puppy. He sounds perfectly normal to me. It does sound like you are ill prepared and misinformed regarding how to deal with a puppy of this age.

I don't see anything you can't work through here with some time and patience, and a crash course educating yourselves on what pups are like and how to raise them properly. If that is something you don't have the time, energy and desire to do, than returning the pup to the breeder may be a good option. Not because the pup is unsuitable for what you want (I don't think he is) but because your own knowledge, experience, lifestyle and expectations are at this point not a good fit for a puppy, any puppy. If you do return the pup, I'd recommend waiting to get another pup until you can get yourselves better prepared for dealing with a puppy, or else you'll run into the same frustrations with the next one. Or focusing your search on an older dog who is past the puppy mouthy stage, more fully crate trained, walks on a leash and has other basic obedience, etc...


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## Keegan62 (Aug 17, 2008)

WEll 4k for a puppy is a lot of money and I would never spend that much and maybe becasue you spent that you expect him to be perfect well there is no perfect dog......

I thought I was going to go nuts with Jack and I paid only 450 for him and got no guarentees

He was a pain in the bottom My first puppy in 20 years
But with guidence from this board and help with everything he is now 6 months old and so much better This board helped me realize about food, ears, training etc,,,,, It takes a long time to train and for puppy to bond....


He hates the crate because maybe of the plan ride
Give him time it needs time he has to be a puppy to turn out to be a great dog....


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## Jazzstorm (Nov 29, 2005)

<span style="color: #3366FF"> If you decide to keep him,be aware puppies are mouthy! It's not that they are naughty or disobedient that is how they explore their world. He is very young and I would expect mouthiness. I think dogs grow out of this (with training) at different rates. Some are very mouthy for a long time,others aren't.

At this point,(if you keep him) I would work on the bonding. No "formal" training but fun training on everyday stuff (sit,his name,no, etc). If he bites you tell him "no" and give him something he can bite like a toy. It takes time but he will get it. 

Use his name OFTEN,he will learn it. I've had adult fosters that learn their "new name" within a day or two.

I am sure people will add to this.

Here are some useful links:
http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/puppy-training/

http://www.canadawestieclub.ca/trainbeh/pupdev.html

http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/DevelopmentalStages.html


http://www.campbowwowusa.com/how-to-socialize-your-dog/

http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/games.html

http://www.canadawestieclub.ca/trainbeh/social.html


http://www.greyhoundlist.org/nothing_is_free.htm

http://leerburg.com/dog-cat.htm

That will start you off.</span>


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

You might find this website helpful. Lots of good info about dealing with young puppies:

Dr. Ps dog training


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## Jazzstorm (Nov 29, 2005)

http://www.k9deb.com/nilif.htm


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## Maryn (Feb 15, 2008)

To illustrate-

When we first brought him home he was a land shark



















Now, wonderful big cuddle bug-










It isn't a change that just happens, it takes alot of work and alot of consistency.

I redirect the biting. It means keeping awkwardly shaped/sized toys in your pocket or waistline 24/7...but you're always prepared to swap flesh for an acceptable shredable.


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## Keisha (Aug 1, 2008)

I've never had a GSD before either, but based on what I've read here, this sounds pretty normal for a puppy. Puppy's no matter what breed, always mouth and bite. My chihuahua did for a time. That's something that you have to be vigilant about and takes time for the puppy to mature/quit teething for them to finally stop. 
I think that you are possibly expecting too much. He is still a puppy. And a puppy that is in a new situation. I would want to give it more time and try more training with him on my own before giving him up. 

But I will say that I don't like the sound of this breeder. I would hope someone who bred their puppies responsibly would be concerned if I was having problems. In fact, from what I've read about several good breeders on this board, I know that they would want to help. So I think that you may have a problem with this one.


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## Maryn (Feb 15, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild Also, you are attributing his behavior to things like dominance and aggression, which is completely inaccurate.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Read this, then read it again. It hits the nail square on the head.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

I have a good idea who you got your puppy from but per board rules we will NOT get into and breeder bashing.

4K is to me a HUGE amount of money and it really sounds at this point that you haven't bonded with the pup and are not happy with the pup, so this is just me and my way of looking at things, take the pup back and get your money back. The way it looks is you won't be getting much support from the breeder.

There are other smaller breeders out there who will work with you and have very nice pups that won't cost you 4K.

I have gotten pups at 8 weeks and 16 weeks, not one of them growled at me unless we were playing, not one had such a problem in the crate that it cut it's feet. 

But I have a Few questions:

Ditto on the question if this your first GSD?

Which is another question what type of crate are you using?

Some pups just are not a match for some people or households.

Val


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## Jazzstorm (Nov 29, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Chris WildYou might find this website helpful. Lots of good info about dealing with young puppies:
> 
> Dr. Ps dog training



<span style="color: #3333FF">







Great link,adding it to my collection.</span>


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Angela_Wwashington state, 4k for a working line puppy. I pretty much have a guess who it's from.


Me too. 

It is entirely possible that the breeder didn't do the work with the pup s/he said s/he did during the puppy boot camp. Whether s/he did or not though, none of these behaviors are abnormal for a pup of this age, and the presence of those behaviors now, with new people in a new environment, can't really be accurately used to ascertain whether the breeder did or did not do the work s/he claimed to have done.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

He's a puppy. And he sounds like a perfectly normal puppy. 

My GSD puppy had me in tears more often than I can tell you. With the gentle guidance of MaggieRoseLee, Chris Wild, Val and others -- and a VERY Competent trainer -- my GSD is a CGC and a service dog. 

And he's taken a two therapy dog classes including one complete 12 week Delta Pet Partners Therapy Dog class. The first time, he was just one year old, and was still a little mouthy. So I took another class six months later and he was a star. 

But when he was a pup, we called him The Alligator. And he's now a phenomenal adult, for his age. It's a long process though, especially since my guy is a European working lines dog that doesn't fully mature until he's about 3 years old (he's two now). 

There's a reason that Delta won't even test dogs until they're one -- because they're not mature enough. But that rule was written with ALL breeds in mind, including small breeds that mature much faster, and breeds like Goldens that tend to be mellower to begin with. 

If you don't have the patience to wait him out, then yes, perhaps returning him IS the best thing for both of you. Try another breed. GSDs aren't for all people. 

I don't know what breeder you used (and it doesn't really matter at this point, I guess...), but I strongly prefer puppies from smaller breeders that are raised in a home around humans, especially for the sort of work that you want. There isn't a rule about this; it's just my personal preference. I wonder if this is the sort of start that your pup got, if there's an "office manager"?


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

You've gotten advice now from someone who breeds and trains Schutzhund pups (Chris Wild) as well as lots of other folks who have raised "normal" gsd pups. It's unfortunate but also obvious that your breeder is not well respected. I realize this must all be a huge shock for you because you thought you had done your homework but you really do have a normal, working lines gsd puppy on your hands. Only you can decide if this is what you want. 

I will say that I have stopped adopting young puppies because they are really hard to work into my current household (older cat and older dog). My current young rescued dog is already an unofficial therapy dog. He will pass the test with flying colors. He is also the easiest dog I have ever adopted/trained. There was plenty of mouthing, jumping, reactive barking, huge crate issues, etc. when I first brought him home (at about a year old)
but with a little work we got through all of that and now he's just about the perfect dog!







So, if you really want to hang in there with this pup you can make it work!


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## Regen (Mar 8, 2007)

Take a deep breath and really read all the great responses here already. I agree with what everyone said that you were not prepared for a puppy, but that being said you can learn, and if you stick around here, you will have the best possible experts at your fingertips. 

When I got Leica I read every single thread on here, and learned so much. I was lucky in that she was a very calm puppy, unlike my Golden retriever puppy years before her. She was so bad in terms of biting, I used to say I never want a puppy again , so I was totally prepared to deal with it when I got Leica, but she turned out to be an angel compared to my Golden go figures







But nevertheless it was not easy, in terms of time and involvement. 

Be honest with yourself. Can you handle the time and care it will take? You have to work with this puppy 24/7, socialize it, teach it how to deal with your cats, and all this does not happen over night. It will take time, determination, and love and trust. If you end up being stressed out and then take it out on the puppy, it will be a difficult road, and the puppy will be the one that ends up suffering from this the most. 

I am sorry you are going through this. Please just relax, read a lot, and make a decision if you can handle the challenge. If yes







great! never look back, doubt or second guess yourself, be the pack leader, read everything you can, ask the questions and make that commitment to your pup. You will be rewarded with a great family member for life. If no , at least the pup will have a better chance someplace else. 

Good Luck and always feel free to ask the questions, like you already have done


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

I wouldn't say that this sounds like a perfectly normal puppy. YES puppies bite, yes they can rip cloths and draw blood, but there are things I don't think I would chalk up to normal. Such as the puppy getting so worked up in the crate that it cut it's feet, growling unless it was done in play. Puppies with good nerve are confident little critters that adjust well to new surroundings and people. This sounds more like a pup that is a bit nervy and not an easy pup to deal with. 

If you are not experienced with this type of pup you have options at this point to return the pup and get a refund OR keep the pup and find a GSD qualified trainer to help you. What happens in the next few weeks in your home is going to set the tone for a long time on how this pup acts.

Val


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## Maryn (Feb 15, 2008)

The busting open paws in the crate is worrisome.

But the OP mentioned comforting and touching the pup when crating. I think it's possible that they inadvertantly reinforced the fear/nervousness the pup was displaying by showing attention in attempt to soothe.

I can't imagine the **** Sieg would have put me through if I coddled him when he whined and dug to get out of his crate the first night.

If you reinforce in their minds that freaking out is the right thing to do, and they think that behaving that way will get them out...of course they're going to try and try and try...potentially leading to injury.


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## KristinEnn (Oct 2, 2008)

I was too going to ask if this was your first GSD. Sounds like he is in working lines and someone did not do there research!








I feel you are expecting way to much from a 14.5 week old pup. These guys are ALOT of work especially the working lines. You have to keep them stimulated mentally and physicallly all the time. 

My girl is from working lines and is like an alligator when it comes to biting but she has gotten alot more gentle the past few weeks only mouthing my hands and arms. She still bites but you have to work through these things. She is now a lil over 16 weeks. 

Also hate to point out the bitter truth to you and dont mean to offend but... 
Training the puppy is on YOU. You are the one that needs to be trained. I am sorry to be harsh but its the truth that i had to learn quickly and at first yes I hated it. However its so rewarding after you put your time in. The dog is the easy thing to train... its training the owners that takes time. I would suggest looking into a good trainer in your area so you will be able to handle your dog when its older. 

Good luck! I hope this IS the right breed for you.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: IluvmyBellaNKahnThese guys are ALOT of work especially the working lines. You have to keep them stimulated mentally and physicallly all the time.


I have to disagree. There are a wide variety of temperaments in working lines as there are in showlines, or american lines. Not ALL working lines have to be kept busy ALL of the time. That is why knowing your pups, knowing the temperaments is key to matching the right buyer with the right puppy. There typically are more laid back pups even in a working line breeding. It is rare to have nothing but alligators for every single puppy.


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## KristinEnn (Oct 2, 2008)

Also another thing of why he may be afraid of his crate is because he may have had a bad experience in his crate during the transport here???!

Definately use lots of kibble as treats and toys and LOTS of praise. Try to make the crate fun as much as you can. Maybe even feed him in there with the door open. Leave the door open and let him go in and out.. throw a toy in there if you can and tell him GOOD boy!!! 
This should help out.. 

also.. if you wouldnt mind would you PM the breeder you got the pup from??? I live in Washington state myself.. and know of the good and the bad when it comes to breeders here even though I too think I have an Idea.


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## KristinEnn (Oct 2, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Angela_W
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: IluvmyBellaNKahnThese guys are ALOT of work especially the working lines. You have to keep them stimulated mentally and physicallly all the time.
> ...



I meant to say in my experiences.. YOU DO have to keep them more stimulated than show lines. I know I have both. However A GOOD breeder should listen to a persons needs when it comes to temperment. So I agree and disagree with what you said.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

I have gotten two pups at 14 - 16 weeks old. The best one was working/German showline cross with great nerves. Just took everything in stride, had no problems with changes in home, diet, sleeping in a crate verses a kennel, loved to go out and explore.

Pups with really good nerve adjust in a day or two, IMHO.


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## KristinEnn (Oct 2, 2008)

Also Angela my breeder would not even let us get a working line pup with out previous GSD owning experience... just fyi also.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

Again, lumping every working line puppy/dog into monsters from heck isn't accurate. I had 1 litter of pups, should've been a great working litter. I got 6 perfect pets. Not a working one in the bunch. Not drivey, not dominant, not mouthy, nada. I was disappointed, but it's just an example of how not all pups are created equal. 

That would be like me saying there isn't a showline that can work schutzhund, or all american lines have temperament problems, or that white gsd's are prone to health problems. Just not the case.


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## KristinEnn (Oct 2, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Angela_WAgain, lumping every working line puppy/dog into monsters from heck isn't accurate. I had 1 litter of pups, should've been a great working litter. I got 6 perfect pets. Not a working one in the bunch. Not drivey, not dominant, not mouthy, nada. I was disappointed, but it's just an example of how not all pups are created equal.



LOL thats not what i was doing.. but ok. I dont mean to be rude in any way. I am just saying you cant have such high expectations all the time. Not all puppies are created equal I understand this and unfortunately in THIS situation this new GSD owner possibly Does NOT have that type of GSD puppy that you express and neither do I, but I dont love her any less all the hard work to me.. has Been SOOO worth it.


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## Maryn (Feb 15, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Angela_WAgain, lumping every working line puppy/dog into monsters from heck isn't accurate. I had 1 litter of pups, should've been a great working litter. I got 6 perfect pets. Not a working one in the bunch. Not drivey, not dominant, not mouthy, nada. I was disappointed, but it's just an example of how not all pups are created equal.


My female is out of mainly working lines, she's the most laid back couch potato.

My male is show lines.... his name should have been Nutty McDriverson. The energy and drive he has compared to her is insane.

I'd definitely agree that you can't lump them into categories.


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## KristinEnn (Oct 2, 2008)

haha.. my West German is so laid back. He is a lazy boy however he can be turned on like that for protection which has been very cool while training him in advanced protection work! He has been a surprise when we need to turn him on to protect mode!


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## klewicki (Nov 11, 2008)

Thank you everybody for your advice.


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## KristinEnn (Oct 2, 2008)

The reason why i had said that about the working lines is because my trainer whom has been doing this for over 25 years (training and breeding) only wanted experienced owners for this past breeding where we got our working line girl. 

She is for sure a handful not like my west german but she is fun. She has great focus and I am one that gets frustrated easy.. dont have a lot of faith in myself so I have suprised myself that we have come so far. We will be doing obedience work with her soon. Our trainer is GREAT when it comes to teaching US what to do. Really we are the ones that need training not our dogs. lol. My husband is also a K9 handler so he helps me out. Definately a bonus for having GSDs around or any dog really for that matter..


ok.. i am talking WAY too much on this thread. Shutting up now... I think.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

I know it was a lot to read, but we want you do be prepared if you keep you pup. There is a lot of ripped cloths and possiblly some blood yet in your future. GSD's can be little land sharks, some more than others.

You are also going to need training help. links are good but you might as well start planning on having money for a qualified trainer.

Val


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I think this is an issue of expectations. Honestly I've never heard of purchasing such a young puppy and having it trained. It very well may have been trained as they said, but a puppy that young in a totally new environment - I would expect nothing. Good breeders have their own training/socialization programs they follow starting very young but that is more for general development. My puppy's breeder started introducing crates at age 4 weeks. When I got him, he'd been exposed to crates and many other things. The first three nights I had him, he screamed ALL NIGHT LONG. Non-stop barking for 5+ hours straight. The second night he thrashed so hard he actually rolled his crate. Those things just happen. I decided not to give in, tried a different crate the fourth night, and he has been fine ever since. He is 14 weeks and has been sleeping quietly through the night for three weeks now. When he goes in the crate I do not coddle. I simply put him in (either he walks in on his own or I set him in, I do not push him in or try to coax him in). If I know I need him crated, before I put him in I put a chew or food toy in there, so he goes in, I shut the door, I leave. He can either sleep, use the toy, or throw a fit, makes no difference to me but I do not coddle or give in. When he is quiet, I praise and stick a treat in the side. When he barks I move out of sight and ignore. It is hard and very annoying but if you constantly run to him when he barks, he is winning and he will bark to get what he wants when he wants it. We do crate rides in the car, random crating during the day at home, crating at our SchH club, and now I take Nikon and his crate to Coke's obedience class and practice crating him and having him be calm while other dogs are working.

He has not been as bitey as I expected, but I do have cuts and scabs all over my hands. These are my fault, I got them while we were playing tug and mis-judged his bite so he got my hand. I think I've avoided early mouthiness because I give him plenty of outlets for that. We bite and tug several times a day. When he is out and awake, the house is covered with toys. If he does find something not appropriate for him, it is "traded" for a toy immediately. Honestly almost every square foot of my home has a toy. Also I think the mouthiness depends on how people react. My husband tends to be more grabby with the puppy, roughing him with his hands and when the puppy bites he jerks his hand away. This play only encourages biting. When I play with him, we play with a toy. When I touch him it is firmly or I'm gently/slowly stroking him, not wiggling my hands around or rubbing him all over like my hand is a prey object.


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## KristinEnn (Oct 2, 2008)

PS GrisNMe if that is the pic of your pup in your avatar is he A GORGEOUS boy!! very stunning!


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## kkms (Oct 17, 2008)

you have recieved alot of advise and information. i will keep mine simple...

your puppy went through a tramatic experience flying in that plane. then throw in leaving a familiar home to go to a strange home. EXTREME STRESS. please give it time. find yourself a good trainer in your area and start now. don't give up. he needs to know that you are the pack leader not him. sending him back is only going to tramatize him more and then what will they do to him when they get him back. 

good luck and keep your chin up - things do get better


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:washington state, 4k for a working line puppy. I pretty much have a guess who it's from.


Yup! 



> Quote:If you are not experienced with this type of pup you have options at this point to return the pup and get a refund OR keep the pup and find a GSD qualified trainer to help you. What happens in the next few weeks in your home is going to set the tone for a long time on how this pup acts.


Agreed. Without the right trainer to guide you, you and your pup may not be the best match for each other. That doesn't mean you've failed or your pup is defective. Sometimes the matches aren't right and neither party will benefit. I would consider what is best for the pup. If you're frazzled to the point of not enjoying the pup, then send him back. If he also seems to be really stressed and not getting the type of attention he needs, he would be best off in a home that understands him. Again, bad matches just sometimes happen and this is why truly responsible breeders interview prospective buyers so thoroughly, why they maintain contact, and why they're always willing to take the pup back if the match just isn't right. Same with breed rescue- if an adopter and an adopted dog just don't click, the rescue will want that dog back in a heartbeat to make sure everyone- especially the dog- is as happy as possible.

Should you decide to try again in the future, ask for breeder recommendations here. I think we can point you in a better (and cheaper) direction than the breeder we all think you've went through.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

I have this bad habit of flaming folks, but not in your case. It seems your are doing everything possible regarding your puppy. 

I cannot add much, except to say that the high end working dogs, can be a bit more of a challenge then some others.

If you have not already, please take the time to read the posts prior to mine. They should be helpful to you, and although I have now had about 10 GSD's there are comments on those posts that would be helpful to me should I get another German Shepherd pup. 

As for your breeder, 72 hours to return, 4K and no personal calls. My breeder has a three year guarantee, and my guy is actually willed to her. Of course, I would never return the dog. But when we have had issues or questions, she has always responded immediately. 

I would like the name of your breeder so I can do a bit of research. Unfortunately, if you post it here, the moderator will likely delete it. A personal E mail naming the breeder would be appreciated. 

So a personal E Mail would be appreciated.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

definitely correct me if i'm wrong, but i dont think its a matter of the breeder not taking the dog back... i believe the 72hr is if you expect a refund. so surely she could return the dog in a week or two, but she'd be out the $4k.

again, if i have this all wrong feel free to correct me!


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

I know who this breeder is, at one time they were on my list (they didn't last long) and from some emails that I had with them they were quite good at creating an image of what a person could expect in one of the older puppies.
I can see where someone that has not been around a GSD pup before could be totaly surprised by what is in their home.

I hope you find what it best for you to do, he is a darling pup.


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## JasperLoki (Sep 25, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: ReichsmomThe busting open paws in the crate is worrisome.
> 
> But the OP mentioned comforting and touching the pup when crating. I think it's possible that they inadvertantly reinforced the fear/nervousness the pup was displaying by showing attention in attempt to soothe.
> 
> ...


Ditto,

I would like to hear about the other reactions of the OP, to see what else has been reinforced.

Great advice by all, this thread is a keeper, and should be made a sticky.

I would personally hand feed meals also, creates a great bond.

NILIF as well.


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## Keegan62 (Aug 17, 2008)

Jack is 1/2 german working and 1/2 american show I feel he is harder to train becasue I do feel he is very smart and a little ahrd headed and can figure out how to NOT DO THINGS.... We got him and 2.5 months old. We drove home no show made he went to a store and we went home... made sure he did potty outside before we came in.... I am not a trainer and am not good at what I need to do lol....but I do everthing matter of factly like the trip 
He is very adapable at 5 months he went with us on a 1500 mile road trip.... kennel and all... we stayed in hotels and he even stayed one night at my mothers house,,,,,,He rode in the car in the kennel.. I fell this was good for him not only as training but at making him accept change well..... He did have a problem going potty he would hold it way to long LOL. If you freak out they will... I am very matter of fact with him and found I got so much more from him.... matter of fact he is laying right now on the floor chewing like a nice little boy and boy was that a lot of work to get here,,,,, He was a challenge and I was told that he was a puppy and what he did was normal By many on this board....
GUESS WHAT THEY WERE RIGHT he is a doll ,WELL ALMOST LOL HAHAHAH

I had a lot of reservations when I got Jack and this board told me what to do....... I have so much more to teach him we are having trouble with him coming back so he is leashed when we are out,,,, I feel that will get better also with age
I love him to death and am so glad the people here helped me

I feel you paid a lot of bucks for the dog and were expecting the hen that laid the golden egg.......


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

GrisNMe - I hope that you stick around and don't get chased off by anything that felt like criticism. I'm truly interested in hearing what you decided and how the breeder reacted.

Personally, just based on what you told us, I think you got ripped off. $4K is a LOT of money for a puppy! And you actually had to pay extra for things that I expect a good breeder to do automatically. The breeders I've dealt with have always leash trained, crate trained and at least partially housebroken the pups prior to sending them to their new owners. The puppies have learned a basic recall and are socialized and well-handled - and NONE of this cost me a penny more! To have to pay extra to have a breeder do what s/he should have done anyway is darn-near criminal to me.

Puppies that are well-handled prior to going to new homes will carry some of that across even though they're in a new environment. Good breeders get their pups out and expose them to new places and new experiences. They have strangers handle them, they teach the pups the beginning of bite inhibition, and they start all of this at a very young age (six weeks at least). So even if you got a pup at eight weeks, it should have two solid weeks of handling already in it. 

Now, a GSD puppy is likely to be mouthy regardless and early puppy training is not going to stop that, but it should have started the pup to understanding that biting is not tolerated. But you have to continue that training. The level that the pup is nibbling on you now is not a good indication as to how the pup will be as an adult. My shepherd pups were little sharks and they all learned bite inhibition without any problems (as have my chows - and both chows and GSDs have worked as therapy dogs as well as earning CGC's and obedience titles). So I wouldn't worry too much about that. A good training class will help you out tremendously.

I think the breeder, given what you've told us, misrepresented what they were selling to you. I have no idea who the breeder is so this is not personal on my part. A good breeder is going to make sure that the new owners understand completely what they're getting into with a pup, especially one of a breed like GSDs who do tend to be high energy and mouthy. You were led astray and I think it's probably because they wanted your money and didn't really care about the rest. If they have any conscience, if you decide to return the pup they should refund 100% of the puppy price and anything you paid for "training". But somehow I doubt they will.

Good luck to you, please let us know what you decided, and I hope all goes well.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Count Bruno, one of the best dog in my house is 1/2 Working and 1/2 German showline. What you are taling about can happen on any lines or cross lines. My German Showline gal can be real stubborn if she wants to be, you just need to adjust your training stlye and get the pup happy to be pleasing you and then they have nothing to be stubborn or hard headed about.


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## KristinEnn (Oct 2, 2008)

ok I think we get the point that any line of dog can either be hard headed stubborn or laid back or vice versa. However as I have stated before in this thread... this new GSD owner does not have a a calm tempered working line.. she has the typical.. working line. Even though she asked the breeder for laid back.. it is dissapointing but not much can be done now. I know exactly who the breeder is as well and even though its not one I personally would reccomend it is a beautiful puppy and I am sure with the help of this forum and training she will do fine with him. 

I too questioned whether I could handle my working line girl. She has been the toughest yet but it ALL so pays off when they make the connection. We are all going to have preferences on which line is harder to train or laid back and so on and so forth.. 

I think the pup is traumatized from the move/flying etc.. and things for them will get better in time with work and effort but I know they can do it.


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## klewicki (Nov 11, 2008)

All that responded - OP here…

First of all, thank you for your advice and comments - positive and negative. I knew I may get some criticism, but was really grabbing at straws yesterday. For anybody interested, here is what we have decided to do and why:

After many discussions with a number of you one-on-one via PMs, discussions with my very good friend (has 3 dogs - 2 show, 1 agility and trains cop dogs), my spouse, and emails to/from the breeder, we have decided, reluctantly, to send the puppy back. He leaves this evening.









This is not what I wanted to happen. I honestly planned for the puppy. The breeder documented what I was looking for in the pup, temper tested, and verified he was suitable for our wants needs. According to the temperament test, he was passive, eager to please, and the most social of all his litter mates - first to the gate for human interaction and the last to leave staring longingly at whoever was leaving. His litter was a repeat of successful prior breeds with the same parents. Puppy Training was recommended to me by the breeder for basic obedience skills - all documented. I agreed, given I was new to owning a GSD and really wanted him to have a solid foundation in which we could build upon to get him his Good Citizen Cert and possible proceed, if he was willing and able, to a Therapy Dog Cert. 

I would like to make it clear: I have had dog experience. I have had a Terrier mix, a Husky, and a Norwegian Elkhound. I also volunteered with Therapy Dogs (varyign breeds) for several years and fostered for a no-kill dog/cat rescue. I have 2 rescues at home. Both are insured and have cost me an arm and a leg to take care of and keep them alive, but I was prepared and more than willing to take care of them in any way. I planned to have the same regard for the puppy.

I waited years until it was the right time to get a pup. After close to a year of contemplation we decided on a GSD. The breeder was selected after I met with 2 personal dog trainers the pup would continue his training with upon arrival. They said good things about the breeder. I now understand this positiveness was associated with cop dogs and agility dogs they had witnessed. The pup was not available when I contacted the breeder. We had to wait for the right one. He was selected post being whelped and temper tested prior to Puppy Training. I have all documentation indicating my wants/needs and what was promised and his temperament was considered "ideal."

Prior to receiving the pup, I particiapted/viewed a number of classes for 6 months (all GSD and other obedience training sessions) ensuring I was 100% prepared for the pup. I am more than confident that I was.

I do believe that puppies need time to be puppies. I know nipping is normal. I was not upset by that. Biting hard enough to break skin and draw blood was an issue and is not normal. A good friend (the one with the show and agility dogs) witnessed the reactions of the pup and felt he was either not appropriately trained (as agreed to and documented) or was trained, but not tempered correctly, resulting in a pup that was trying to fit a square peg into a round hole - she felt he exhibited strong Schutzhund qualities. She was also concerned about the breeder keeping him until he was 14.5 weeks old during his bonding period. Originally he was arriving at 12 weeks; however, there were weather and trainer complications at the breeder's facility that delayed his arrival.

We had a fence put in our back yard and built a custom (really cool) wooden kennel - think of your deck on steroids - for the pup. It was 18'x8' in front of a triple window. Inside was a separate (new) large crate with a bed in it. I had toys, tugs, etc. ready for him. There was a couch in front of the window for comfort as well as so he could look outside (it was right behind a big oak tree with squirrels and all sorts of creatures for stimulation). We also set up a radio for him - with long term goals of installing a small TV for his viewing. He did like football - we learned that on Sunday. He didn't mind the kennel at all; however, he did mind the crate. Again, this was not the crate in which he was transported via air in - I knew that was too traumatizing. 

I am a firm believer in positive reinforcement. The pup did a good job working with me in our yard and was rewarded for everything (I used beef hot dogs, cheese, frozen banana chunks). We played games with ice cubes, toys, and his leash - he loved the leash - as long as it wasn't on him leaving our yard. I spent nearly every waking minute with the pup to get him acclimated as quickly as possible. I did everything that was recommended to me.

I contacted the breeder for support on Saturday about the biting. Biting was not included on the instruction DVD sent. I needed advice. Upon being advised the pup had no reason to listen/respect me, I contacted again Sunday. I, again, was looking for advise and info. I continued by asking to work with him for another week or two to get him acclimated knowing he was traumatized. I was willing to lose 25% through the 72 hours and then up to 50% for another week or so. I really wanted to give him a fair chance. I also thought it would be wise to get him in front of a trainer to see what they thought about his temperament and trainability. I didn't anticipate having to do this given the reports and info given to me by the breeder, therefore, I didn't pre-plan. The 72 hours didn't allow for me to trouble shoot this - especially on a Sunday when I realized there was a potentially big problem.

The breeder, in my opinion, threw in the towel before I would have. While the pup wasn't ideally what I anticipated, I was willing to give him time to get acclimated and take more time to get to know his personality and review his temperament - by me - and by the local trainer to ensure we could "meet in the middle" and live happily together. That is only fair to the pup and his family. The breeder never returned our calls as requested (only emailed responses) and wasn't willing to offer advice, etc. I would have expected the trainer of the pup to call at some point. There were no calls, no support, just directives to review the contract. 

After many attempts to get the return ("restocking" as they refer to it… I have an issue "restocking" a puppy, but that is just me…) protocol and dollar amount confirmed in writing, we did last night, and decided it's best for Griswold, the pup, the go back to the breeder and find a home that fits his personality better. I am concerned about ling term effects associated with this; however, this is a decision we have decided to make with our heads over our hearts - which was particularly difficult for me. 

We will go back to the drawing board for the right pup and the right breeder for us. Like before, we are not in a hurry and if/when the right pup presents him/herself we will be ready to welcome him/her home with joy - treats - an an awesome "crib." We will be more cautious this time. If we stick with the GSD, we want to find somebody who loves their dogs and sees them as a companion rather than a dollar sign or a product. We would want to be involved much earlier and conduct our own training under the guidance of a trainer. 

Thank you again for all your advice and comments. I hope to find another dog that fits our needs so I can learn from/grow with you all in the future. You are welcome to PM me if you like. 

There are so many Lesson Learned from this experience. Thank you any/all that contributed. 

Thank you,
-K


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

It sounds like you did what was best. I wouldn't worry about long term effects. Many dogs/puppies go from homes to shelters to homes, many diff. owners and they adjust. 

And as for conducting your own training the next time


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Good luck finding a puppy that will meet your very rigid expectations.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

Regardless of your feelings, personal attacks are not allowed.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

I'm so sorry you went through such a difficult experience. This sounds like emotional upheaval for all involved. I know it will be painful to return him, but maybe a gentler, calmer match would be better suited to your home. People force themselves to live with mismatches all the time... and the DOG is not truly happy unless it is in a well-matched home. I absolutely respect your choice here. The fit needs to be right. For the puppy, and for you and your family, too. And to be honest, I also felt I "knew" dogs and GSDs before I got my lil' monster. I ended up keeping him, but I can easily see your side in this, too. Perhaps for your next dog a rescued adult would be ideal-- that way, you totally get to meet the personality of the dog before committing and investing your heart into it. Adult dogs make AWESOME pets-- in fact, some of the best matches ever come from meeting a calm adult dog just waiting for a forever home!


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## klewicki (Nov 11, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: BrightelfPerhaps for your next dog a rescued adult would be ideal


We actually discussed the possiblity of rescuing an adult, but we shall see. There are too many emotions right now to make any final decisions. My other 2 pets are rescues... it was very rewarding. Thanks Brightelf.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Angela_W
> 
> And as for conducting your own training the next time


I think that's the most important thing. Training, to me, is much more about bonding with your dog, learning to communicate and respect each other than systematically getting a dog to do what you want. I still cannot fathom why a breeder would set expectations that a puppy would come trained with a set temperament at 12-14 weeks old. Sure, I trained my pup to do some tricks before that age, but it's not what he's doing that's important, it's HOW we are doing it. The process is more important than the ends justifying the means. Yes, there are temperament tests you can do on pups to get a general idea, but nothing is guaranteed. I think genetics set limits at both ends of the spectrum but there's a lot of space in between and the pup really becomes what you make of it.

Perhaps this puppy was removed from the litter in favor of "training" and what he really missed out on was learning bite inhibition from his siblings?


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## skyizzy (Apr 15, 2008)

Puppies are like children, they are born not knowing what you are asking of them, they have to taught, with love patience, guidence. Positive training, plenty of treats,redirect when they get ahold of something you do not want them to have. You have to give them a chance. Your puppy will learn. But if you are not willing to commit,then its better to send the puppy back. All puppies can be mouthy. Izzy's nickname was "Snapplejaws" for awhile.


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## Kayla's Dad (Jul 2, 2007)

GrisNMe you deserve hugs for having to go through this experience. You've been pretty thoughful about your process and your decision seems to have been reached carefully and with some pain.

Hopefully it will add to your preparation for when you do get that next GSD. I agree with prior comments about the training. DOn't let someone else do it for you. Besides the bonding it is such a wonderful experience of learning and communicating with your dog or puppy should you continue forward in that direction. And it sounds like you have the moxy to do it right!

Hope you stay with us on the forum and continue your learning and sharing on your journey. 

Good Luck


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## KristinEnn (Oct 2, 2008)

oh what a tough desicion Karie! but you must do what is best and i feel that you were completely mislead by the breeder and went through alot and were not given any personalized attention that you should have! and totally train the pup yourself dont pay the extra for that supposed "training"
Sorry you are going through all of this and that it didn't work out!

Glad also you didnt take any of the criticism as personal attacks on you. That is definately not what they were.. we all here are very passionate about our GSDs. Which I have learned personally from this forum receiving quite a bit of criticism but then again.. everyone has a right to their opinion so I take it with an open mind and a grain of salt. 

I know of a great breeder here that has a plush girl she was going to donate for a special needs dog for an abused woman's shelter. This pup was also a working line.. this breeder does ship. I'll give you her link in a PM so you can look into it as a "maybe" option. 

Good luck to you! In the end you made the decision that was right for you and this pup. Good for you.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

GrisNme, I really think you did the right thing. Don't feel bad that the match was incorrect! You were RELYING on your breeder to understand your needs and they've clearly failed. Again, when you are ready to try again, post to this board requesting breeder recommendations and we can point you to breeders who will treat you like the extended family you should be when buying a puppy.







We have some FANTASTIC breeders on here who produce true-to-the-letter examples of what the GSD should be, they're reasonably priced, and they're always right there, ready to help and assist, offer advice and cheer along with you when you and your puppy have those wonderful life successes, whether it's learning basic commands all the way to earning the first title. I hope you continue to hang out on this board!


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I wouldn't worry about the pup's adjustment. My eldest was a "returned to breeder" puppy - and she's terrific. I found a 4 yo GSD bleeding in my backyard, paid to patch him up & got him signed over to me. He did fine at my house.

Good luck, and I'm sorry it didn't work out for you.


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## KristinEnn (Oct 2, 2008)

errr ...except for that rigid expectations comment..hmm I feel since you are wanting a therapy dog in the future you have every right to have alot of expectations so therefore it will be very important for you to find the "right" breeder. I will admit when I first read your post I had shared some criticism but this was before I knew the WHOLE story. So for that I apologize. Dont let anyone get you down. 
When speaking with another breeder before making a firm decision or putting down any money I would definately ask many questions and right down what exactly you are looking for in temperment and etc. There are plenty of good ones out there.. We can definately help you out here!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Find a breeder who has titled therapy dog in her breeding stock. Not all that hard to do. They can give you a lot of advise and help you pick a good dog for this. 

Most GSDs can become Therapy dogs. But some will take a lot more work than others. So finding someone who is breeding for the qualities that you are looking for is essential. 

Personally, I think you did the right thing, particularly because the breeder wouldn't give you more time to make the adjustment, and suggested training that did not seem to happen.


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## SouthernThistle (Nov 16, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Jacqui
> 
> Apart from a few other things, the above really has alarm bells ringing for me. Any 'good' breeder worth his or her salt should take back one of their own puppies if it's found that the puppy is not fitting in etc, but then it's unrealistic of the breeder to expect you and the puppy to settle with other after just 72hrs!!


My thoughts exactly. After spending $2K-$4K on a dog, you would think you would have chosen a more than adequate breeder. 72 hours is not nearly long enough for a puppy to become the perfect, quiet, well-mannered, canine it should be. It is, after all, a puppy.


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## SouthernThistle (Nov 16, 2005)

I just wanted to say, please do not write off German Shepherds or German Shepherd breeders based on your experience with this one. 

There is a plethora of information on this board, and you will learn a lot. With some additional reading and asking questions, you might realize the correct type of German Shepherd that would suit your needs. 

Two things I know about German Shepherds in my years of ownership:

They are gators / land sharks.

Their names should be German Shedders.

I wish you luck on finding the right dog, and I hope that you will eventually give GSDs another chance if not now.


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## djpohn (Jun 27, 2003)

I know your decision was hard, but I believe it was the right one for you to make.

We have a club member who got a pup from this breeder. there were issues right from the beginning and even with the help of our training director, they were not able to handle the pups as he matured. They ended up returning the pup when he was less than a year after the mom go bit. The dog went into training and ended up in a very experienced sport home. Sometimes opups grow up to be more than the potential they showed when they were young!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: selzerFind a breeder who has titled therapy dog in her breeding stock. Not all that hard to do. They can give you a lot of advise and help you pick a good dog for this.


I think any GSD from a decent breeder should be fine as a therapy dog. The level of obedience and socialization required is not too specialized or extensive and should be something any correct tempered GSD could potentially achieve. I used the Therapy Dog Int'l evaluation as a general temperament test for my dog. She is a pure working line dog and passed fine. I've seen many working line dogs that actually compete in SchH and have TDIs or Deltas.

Personally, if a breeder was breeding and selling dogs that could not pass a TDI then I would want that dog regardless of whether I intended to do pet assisted therapy.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I agree and said that any GSD should be able to pass this. But someone who makes it their focus may be breeding lines with an effort toward calm, laid back dogs. Someone who breedes for search and rescue might also be a good breeder to check in with. 

Some breeders are breeding specifically for high drives, high energy, and the willingness toward bitework for schutzhund prospects. I have no problem with this. But this may not be where this person should look for a pup. 

Looking for a dog from the people that work with their dogs as therapy dogs, search and rescue dogs -- higher energy I imagine than therapy dogs, assistance dogs etc., are breeders who probably can provide a better choice as a pup, and better support than the yayhoos these people originally went with.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

I'm sorry you went through this. Sometimes, despite all of our best efforts, we think we're are doing what's right, but well... we who in live in WA and who have been around a bit have a clearer idea of what you're actually going through.

I'm very sorry this didn't turn out the way you hoped. Hang out around the Breeders section. There is some fantastic info down there about questions to ask breeders, what to look for, things to expect. When I bought my last puppy (not a GSD), I used all that info, corresponded with several breeders for months, asking a gazillion detailed questions. A number of them gave me vague answers like "that's how I do it and I get good results." Well, that isn't good enough. So I kept looking. 

Finally, I found a breeder that she didn't shy away from answering my questions and had a BUNCH of her own about me, Dh, our experience owning dogs (including this breed), our current dogs, the training and work we do with them, etc. That's what I want -- a breeder as picky about me as I am about them! I flew down to California to meet the breeder, the bitch and the sire and check it all out for myself. I was spending a lot of money on a pup. Yes, other pups were cheaper, but this bitch and sire had numerous health certifications, ate premium food -- when I asked what they ate, she opened up the closet, and there were bags of Evo and grain-free snacks -- and when I asked to look at vet records, it was clear that they received regular vet care. Oh, they won titles too, but that was less important.

So, the plane ticket, rental car and hotel added up to about $500. But I just added that to the price of my puppy in my brain. I couldn't find a puppy that I could get what I wanted up here in WA or nearby states. I couldn't find a breeder willing to answer my questions honestly (one told me that it was "irregular" to ask to see vet records), or give me the sort of guarantee that I thought was reasonable. This breeder demands return if I can't keep my pup.

The breeders here at this forum are a treasure trove of information and guidance. If you learn from them, you will be able to better discern a breeder who has healthy happy pups as her first priority (and money second), whether you want another GSD or another breed. 

I learned from them. And seven months later, my pup is healthy and happy. I ran xrays during her spay; although it's early, her hips and elbows look great. She's smart, funny, and confident, in large part because she was handled and stimulated from birth, socialized around children and all sorts of adults before I ever picked her up -- in a home. 

You deserve a puppy like that.


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## Sean Rescue Mom (Jan 24, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: BrightelfPerhaps for your next dog a rescued adult would be ideal-- that way, you totally get to meet the personality of the dog before committing and investing your heart into it. Adult dogs make AWESOME pets-- in fact, some of the best matches ever come from meeting a calm adult dog just waiting for a forever home!


Ditto, I have to agree with Patti but then I'm prejudiced since we adopted Sean at 1 y.o. 
Regardless of what the future brings I'm sure you will take your time before making any commitments. All the best of luck to you. Please continue to check in from time to time.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I think that with any dog, bought (and not matter how much you pay) or adopted, there are no true guarantees about who the dog will be when they come into your home or when they get older. Anything can happen. There are people on here who have bought dogs from very reputable breeders and the dogs end up serious health or temperament issues and the same goes for people who adopted dogs who seemed like a perfect fit. 

I think that you can research and research but the most important thing in deciding to bring a new animal into your life is to realize that it will be a process of adaptation and both you and the dog will need to be a part of this process. You cannot buy or adopt the perfect dog. Thankfully life does not work like that.


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## Keegan62 (Aug 17, 2008)

Wisc
This isn't about me but thanks for the advice
it's about this 4k Pup
I do not care that Jack is hard headed It is who he is I accept it. It makes him who he is, and do the best I can I am NO TRAINER just a regular person with a puppy
I had a lot of help here with jack and how to deal with a puppy and that was the point


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## KristinEnn (Oct 2, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Count BrunoWisc
> This isn't about me but thanks for the advice
> it's about this 4k Pup
> I do not care that Jack is hard headed It is who he is I accept it. It makes him who he is, and do the best I can I am NO TRAINER just a regular person with a puppy
> I had a lot of help here with jack and how to deal with a puppy and that was the point


Its ok Kathy I got the same responses when I said something about the working line myself. Pretty much a few people wanted to prove to me that not all working lines are hard headed and that some west german lines are like working lines.. blah blah blah and I was trying to say that this pup sounded alot like my girl whom is a working line who is very go go go. Needs lots of stimulation but sometimes people on here are just super passionate about thier dogs and opinions which is ok too however it is rather disrespectful when you are giving someone else advice and then a whole other person butts in and quick quotes you then tells you how wrong you are. Good times. I experience this alot on this forum. 
Anyhoo.. who cares.. working lines show lines blabber.. lets stick to the OP. Sorry for going off track here.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

I'm sorry that this didn't work out better for you, it must of been a very difficult decision.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

I didn't think I was being disrespectful in any way just pointing out that not all dogs can be lumped together no more than people can be. That's like saying all pitbulls are dangerous, all rotties are dangerous. Can't do that. But if that's how you took it, sorry.


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## bearlasmom (Sep 21, 2006)

ok, i have been away from this forum for a while but not way from GSD, i have been around them my whole life and well $4K is crazy for a pup, you never knw what will come of it in the future. in one of your posts you said you have been around OLDER gsd right? Older gsd and younger ones are nothing alike. Take a deep breath first of all. Even if it was crate traied you have to start over at square one because it is living in a new and strange home with new people. IT needs time to get to know you. Puppies are mouthy, this is a cold hard fact but with proper training they do grow out of it. Our misty is 1 now and still gets mouthy at times. Buy a waist band trainer and strap the pup too you all day if you can, get it you to ou. Google NILIF and amichen training. Expecting a young pup to be ready alreadyfor shutzhund is asking alot, you have to train them, first to be a good citizen, then from ther work up. Its not the breeders fult in the end. If you have kids or get pregnant you are taking a heck of a chance of it being perfectly the way you would expect and they unfortunately dont come toilet trained, and know their abc's. Take time, get to know your pup, take it one day at a time, start small, start on the crate training and work up. Especially with GSD it takes time because they are pups along long time, maybe not in body but other ways and you are its parent now and have to teach it. There are a ton of very intelligent people on this forum to help you get to where you wnat to be, just check out the shtzhund section. Start by givin pup a hug, taking it back to the breeder and going someonewhere else will not guarantee you get a fully trained pupespecially at that age and even if you do, (which would be impossible) bringing it into a new home means bringing into a home with a new alpha and that takes tiem for you both to determine who it will be. I hope this helps


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

um, she sent the pup back.


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## KristinEnn (Oct 2, 2008)

really lets just drop it for goodness sakes!! its not a big deal anymore and it wasnt just you Angela however thanks I guess for the apology. I understand your point and opinion but some just take it too far to "re inforce" it. Seems like someone always has to have the last word around here. Geez this a forum people! but feels sometimes like high school. Sorry to everyone else who wants to stick to original OP. I apologize and will no longer post anything here unless its to do with OP.


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## klewicki (Nov 11, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: bearlasmomExpecting a young pup to be ready alreadyfor shutzhund is asking alot


Thanks for your advice, but I think you got lost in the posts and missed the points I made in my 2 large posts - especially the last one on page #3. I didn't want a Schutzhund dog and never expected a fully trained pup. The pup has been returned. I will be using everybody's advice moving forward to better select a breeder and pup that fits my family's wants/needs. This is important for the pup and the family. I appreciate all who understand this and support me.

Let's drop this conversation now. The pup will find a better home now that best fits his personality to his new family's personality.

Thanks again to all. 

-K


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

GrisNMe, I am glad you are still here. I am sure that you are feeling down right now, but if it wasn't a good match for you, you did the best thing for the puppy and yourself. There are times when people try too hard to make things work and it is miserable for the puppy and the humans.

I think there is the perfect pup/dog out there for you. When you do find it, it will be one of the best times in your life. 

Val


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

GrisnMe asked for and expected a certain personality - when she got a pup, it was obviously not what she expected - just not the right pup for her! Given the obvious conclusion of where the pup came from (for many of us here!), that the pup was not carefully chosen for her needs and goals, is par for the course from many other situations made public. Sending this pup back, where he will be sold to someone who is looking for that kind of pup is really IMO the best solution....rather than deal with months or years of frustration, trying to make the pup fit her needs, rather than what he is more suitable for, it is a better situation for both pup and OP that they each get a partner who fits their personality and needs better.

There is no shame in admitting it when you are overfaced, especially when you can rectify the situation quickly. Dragging it out, "trying to make a square peg fit in a round hole" would only result in an owner who is unhappy and a pup who is not in the best situation for his needs.

I think GrisnMe should be commended for taking a hit here for doing what was not only in her best interests, but that of the pup in reality.

Lee


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## Keisha (Aug 1, 2008)

^ I agree! I think that you did the best thing for you and the puppy by sending it back. This way he/she will be adopted by someone who wants that kind of puppy, and you can continue to look for a puppy that fits your needs and wants. 

I really do hope that everything works out and you find the perfect GSD for you!


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## JasperLoki (Sep 25, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: WolfstraumGrisnMe asked for and expected a certain personality - when she got a pup, it was obviously not what she expected - just not the right pup for her! Given the obvious conclusion of where the pup came from (for many of us here!), that the pup was not carefully chosen for her needs and goals, is par for the course from many other situations made public. Sending this pup back, where he will be sold to someone who is looking for that kind of pup is really IMO the best solution....rather than deal with months or years of frustration, trying to make the pup fit her needs, rather than what he is more suitable for, it is a better situation for both pup and OP that they each get a partner who fits their personality and needs better.
> 
> There is no shame in admitting it when you are overfaced, especially when you can rectify the situation quickly. Dragging it out, "trying to make a square peg fit in a round hole" would only result in an owner who is unhappy and a pup who is not in the best situation for his needs.
> 
> ...


+1

I believe that there are way too many mismatches, whether it be breed specific, temperament, whatever the case may be, it's one less dog that we will see in the shelter.

IMO


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

Aw, this story reminds me of my little Maligator. My right forearm was always scratched and bloody from my little monster. That was her name for her first 6 months. 

I finally worked things out with her. Now she's 3 years old (I can't believe I've had my Princess that long!) and a sweetie. No bites, just kisses, but boy does she love to play tug with the towel. 

However, she'd never be a therapy dog, but that's not what I was looking for. 

Balto was the opposite. He was a dream, but not in the first 72 hours.









I know they aren't GSDs, just GSDs on speed. LOL! So, I've been told about Belgians.


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## Kerrycanton (Jun 24, 2007)

Boy I'll tell you when we brought Allie home, I was thinking what the heck is this dog doing to me. I mean the biting was pretty bad. I would go to work with scratch marks all over my legs. I called her little Edward Scizzorhands! My husbands face was marked up. It really looked like we were being abused. It got better with time. We laugh about it now. I mean it was funny kinda. She will be 2 years old this April. I miss her being a little pup. Sometimes I will look at her baby pics and laugh at her thick little legs. They were so cute! Do not give up on you GSD! IT WILL GET BETTER!

This sounds kinda crazy but I'd love to have 3 GSDs.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

Wow. 4,000??? For a working line pup supposedly of pet quality with low drive??? That's a lot of money. I thought I paid a lot for a working line pup. On top of that, I think this breeder was not very realistic when setting expectations. A puppy of that age will not be "completely trained" to do anything, much less not puppy bite at all.


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