# Help! My dog bit me



## Joys (Nov 6, 2017)

My almost five month old bit me today. This was not the typical landsharking. It was because I kept taking things away from her that she didn’t need to have in her mouth. She has never shown any possessiveness in the past. No food aggression or anything. 
Today she became angry, lunged, and clamped down on my arm. She bit several other places but I was able to wiggle away from her, grab her collar, and crate her.

I bought her from Appleridge Kennels in September. Her pedigree is a mixture of showline and West German working lines. There’s a few Shutzhund 3 titles in the lineage. 
Did I buy more dog than I needed? 

We begin obedience class on the 29th. But I’m not sure that’s going to address the possessiveness issue.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Assuming she's right in the head, taking vs giving is where you're most likely getting this from. You need to teach her to give things to you. You can make a trade, just a toy for food, or you can play two ball which is just a variation on a trade, two identical toys, if you want to do that or trade without the throwing. Or just one decent sized tug you can play with her and teach her to out it by immobilizing it, then making it active again and letting her rebite. I wouldn't worry about too much dog.

Think of a dog retrieving, they bring it back and willingly give it to you. That's the general idea. In the mean time, be careful to limit her access to things she can't have so you don't have to take things, and work on a leave it command, so you can tell her not to take those things.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

Were you taking or trading? Were you annoyed? If I can I always trade or redirect like this is mine this is yours. I'll stop what I am doing and play a bit. Pup takes a shoe I trade for his toy works well for me. If i cant play right then ill crate and make it a priority as soon as i can to get him playing. Also one way my pup will show me he is bored and in need of a physical outlet is being mischievous. A nice play and run session we come back inside with a happy dog. If we were to play hard and pup was still mischievous inside I would crate him because he needs a nap. I try to do everything I can with my pup by teaching without conflict. I can't stress enough how important motivating your puppy is, it eliminates so much unwanted behavior and conflict. I have very limited experience, but I think this forum and my pup have taught me a lot. I would reevaluate how you interact with your pup so this doesn't become a problem later.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

What was it you took away when the bite occurred? Some things hold more value to the point they may object to having it taken. There are trade up games you can use to remove high value items from your dog. The basic premise is you have something better to give them for the object they have. Others may explain the method in better detail as I'm only aware of it, but not used it. Don't get hung up on parents titles and what not, this is not all that uncommon.


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## Joys (Nov 6, 2017)

Thanks for the responses. I’ve been sitting here stunned. 
It was a toy trumpet, made of plastic. I was afraid she would swallow parts of it. I threw it away before I swapped for a new toy. When I went back to her, she lunged. 

Usually the first thing we do in the morning is go outside and play for awhile. I was distracted with other things this morning and had not taken her out, yet. Looking back, that probably had a connection. She had a lot of energy.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

From what you posted it sounds like you've inadvertently made her feel defensive and possessive.IME the best way to avoid this entirely is to always trade for something of even higher value than what the dog has in it's mouth.You can make it a game of 'two ball' where you throw the first ball,she brings it back,wait until she drops it,immediately throw #2 ball.Trade toys for treats,trade that sock she snitched for a better toy or a treat,etc.As soon as she drops what she has to get the better prize add your cue word...drop it,leave it,etc.
She will stop feeling anxious and defensive and gladly respond to the command.Some day you will need her to drop something precious to you or dangerous to her and she will comply instantly.My dogs are 5 and 3 1/2 and whenever the drop something on command they receive at the very least effusive praise and if possible a toy,treat,or short game of tug.
I'm sorry your dog hurt you.It's very upsetting I know.Convincing her that all good things come from you will get you so much farther than making her feel she needs to defend herself from you.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Joys said:


> Thanks for the responses. I’ve been sitting here stunned.
> It was a toy trumpet, made of plastic. I was afraid she would swallow parts of it. I threw it away before I swapped for a new toy. When I went back to her, she lunged.
> 
> Usually the first thing we do in the morning is go outside and play for awhile. I was distracted with other things this morning and had not taken her out, yet. Looking back, that probably had a connection. She had a lot of energy.


So you had already taken it and thrown it away when she bit you? So like Dogma said, at that point I'd think she's kinda defending herself from the grabbing, those parts of it all. Try calmly calling her to you instead of you going back to her. See if that just in general changes how she reacts with you.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Maybe WL dogs are different than WGSL dogs in this respect, but I disagree that an owner should have to trade objects to remove anything from your dog. What if you have a cooked steak, bone and all, that your dog just took. The last time he took one of these, he had diarrhea for days because of the cooked bones, or fat, a intolerance to beef? Nothing in the world is more enticing than steak. You cannot whip out a milk bone and say, "drop it, here you want this, trade!" Dogs aren't that dumb. They know the steak is the best thing their mouth has been around, and they already know that the stinky dry milkbone is not as exciting. Then what?

The dog is five months old. And it is biting the owner over things? Time to call the breeder and have a heart to heart discussion about the dog. The breeder should know her lines and be able to give you good pointers. 

The dog isn't going to start classes until later this month? Well, I am sorry, but yes, training can help a thing like this. Why? Because training is communication. Good training builds a bond of trust between the dog and handler, because the owner is learning to be consistent and communicate effectively with the dog, and the dog is learning what the owner wants him to do and when he does it, that he can rely on the outcome. This improves the leadership roll of the owner, and the dog naturally falls into the follower roll. A good leader can take anything from one of her dogs. Anything. And not get bit. 

Did the puppy make you bleed? Bruise? In one spot or in all the spots? This can give insight on whether the dog was "correcting" you, or was seriously trying to defend itself and what she sees is her own. The answer might point in the direction of an experienced trainer for you and the dog, over group obedience lessons. 

If I had a dog for 3 days and was wrestling a steak or a pig's ear out of its mouth (not happening), than I can understand this. If I had a puppy for 6 or 8 weeks and it is now 5 months old, and it bites me because of a toy, if that was even it -- maybe it saw the new toy and immediately lunged for it? Game On? I dunno, got to try and trust your perception of what happened. I'd be wondering what I was doing wrong. I know that isn't what you want to hear, but it should be. Because you can fix you. You can't always fix some of what is going on in dogs. 

In the mean time, since I don't believe in trading games, I would say, if the dog has something you do not want it to have, call the dog to you. If she comes praise and snap a lead on her and walk her to a crate and then go retrieve the item. If she brings the item to you, snap a leash on her without making any attempt to take the item. Then walk her to the fridge or the back door, saying, "drop it" and walk her away from it. If you use the fridge, after you crate her go back to the fridge and get her a piece of cheese and give it to her. Good Girl. 

But manage stuff better. If you see a toy getting worn, remove it when she isn't there, for now. And keep stuff she can get to, those things you are ok with her having. Try to set the scene so that you do not have to fight over anything. 

Teaching LEAVE IT, and DROP IT, Come, SIT, WAIT, are all things that will help your dog. I mean, if the dog is chewing the leg of the table, "Eh LEAVE IT!" If she understands the concept, it is the easiest thing. Dogs come in and pull a stack of dirty dishes off the counter (Darn it Kojak and Lassie!), Eh Leave it, OUT! Well it worked, and it kept me from having to pull chards of correl out of the feet and they did not injest any. I also have fewer dishes to wash now. If the dog has something, "Drop it!" MIne! Then I do offer something, and say "Yours." to let them know that they can chew on something, This. Drop it, and then leash and walk away from it. 

At the end of the day, maybe not today, but when your dog is grown, you should be able to reach in and remove anything fom your dog's mouth. That is trust. It isn't something you practice. It is something you hope you never have to do. But if you do, you can, because your dog trusts you and accepts that you are allowed to remove anything from her mouth. Could be a pill that landed on the floor. Could be a can lid or piece of glass. Princess once got her tongue stuck and cut and bleeding on a tin can where the lid was mostly cut open, and then pushed in when the contents were removed, so it would not cut the garbage bag. I was a kid. I had to get that can off of her tongue without doing more damage. I was able to do so, because she trusted me, and I was the leader. That is the goal. And yes, obedience training does help. Not unnecessarily removing things forcibly from her will also help. Familiarity with her (training) and confidence is what you need. 

And if you have to get something from her, sometimes it does happen, and you manage it without issue, tell her, "now let's go get a piece of cheese!" It isn't trading. It is removing her focus off of the loss of the object and on to the next thing. Walk with her to the fridge, and have her sit. Good girl. Open the fridge. If she pops up, "eh! SIT" Good, now open the drawer, is she still sitting? Make a deal about it getting it out and unwrapped, then, when she is sitting and focused, and expectant, offer the cheese, "good girl!" 

The trading game to me suggests the dog is allowed to make decisions that actually might be life-skills. If I tell the dog to DROP IT! or LEAVE IT, this is not a choice, this is a command. A dog may not be able to spit a pill out. A quick LEAVE IT! might prevent the pill from going in, but if it is in there, you will have to go in after it. Trades won't help you with this. A good training bond will help because the dog will accept anything from you, because you are the leader.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

there are a number of people on this forum with dogs from this kennel that aren't "right"

go to the classes and see what happens


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I taught Shadow trade, and Bud, but as a game not for training reasons.

Bud may have bitten if I took something out of his mouth, so I made sure we had a rock solid OUT! In my world that means drop it/stop it depending on the context. However, he grabbed some found meat in my yard and I without a thought reached into his mouth a removed it, while telling him out. I did not get bitten, but he thought about it. 
Shadow is a none issue. I routinely remove things from her possession and I promise if she ever even tried to bite she would only do it once. I use out with her because on a couple of occasions she tried to swallow things. 

To my mind a 5 month old pup that throws a tantrum on that level needs a serious "I saw the light" moment. 
Dogs are companions. Dogs that put their teeth on humans, outside of work, need to be trained, managed or destroyed if those fail.
Get this dog into training, up the structure, run obedience drills routinely and make this puppy work for every blessed thing she gets.


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## Joys (Nov 6, 2017)

I’m taking her to the vet tomorrow to see if it’s something physical. She sort of growled softly at my husband earlier when he picked up one of her chew toys. This is a marked personality change. I’ll see if it’s something physical making her grumpy. 

Several people have said I’m too passive with her; they say I’m not consistent with boundaries. So yes, whether the problem is physical or not, training will help remind me to be a consistent leader. I have been focused on socialization. I take her everywhere I can legally take her. I treat her like a baby and basically forget I’m dealing with dog with a lot of teeth. 

But I’ve had dogs my entire life, Dobermans, Rottweilers to Border Collies, but this is the first time I’ve actually been bitten by my own dog. 
I have three puncture wounds on my arm where her teeth sunk in. She drew blood. She didn’t shake her head or anything. She just held my arm. Then she bounced around and teeth were scraping me. 

I’ll update after the vet. Thanks for the advice. I lurk these forums a lot because I really do learn from them.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Joys said:


> I’m taking her to the vet tomorrow to see if it’s something physical. She sort of growled softly at my husband earlier when he picked up one of her chew toys. This is a marked personality change. I’ll see if it’s something physical making her grumpy.
> 
> Several people have said I’m too passive with her; they say I’m not consistent with boundaries. So yes, whether the problem is physical or not, *training will help remind me to be a consistent leader*. I have been focused on socialization. I take her everywhere I can legally take her. *I treat her like a baby and basically forget I’m dealing with dog with a lot of teeth. *
> 
> ...


Why do you treat her like a baby? 


> I bought her from Appleridge Kennels in September. Her pedigree is a mixture of showline and West German working lines. There’s a few Shutzhund 3 titles in the lineage.
> Did I buy more dog than I needed?


More dog doesn't equal a solid nerve or temperament. There is a huge difference when it comes to a powerful dog that is bred correctly and a dog that cannot control impulses. But remember, you have a puppy and pups are always learning, even a 5 month old pup needs to learn boundaries and structure.
I agree with Carmen, that kennel has produced quite a few that aren't right from reading over the years...though outright saying so isn't allowed here so it always goes to a pm to learn such information(and the posts are deleted). I would like to see the pedigree of your puppy


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Good luck Joy. I tend to believe most things don't come out of the blue. If she was having some health problems, you'd see something else going on and most likely would have paid attention to them, or taken her to the vet. From what you're saying, temperament problems would have been more likely to have been overlooked, and this would have been something that escalated to this point.

That's not guaranteed or any kind of an absolute, but keep that in mind if the vet say's she's fine.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

do not coddle any dog . 

PM me the pedigree . I am curious to see what they are throwing together now. You said "working lines"?


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I know I heard of breeder on this forum, people had issues with their dog. I thought they crossed American showlines and West german showlines. I find quite a few people think they have working lines when it is a West german showlines. I don?t know if this true or not in your case either way, I would find a good trainer one preferably familiar with gsds can assist you.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

What makes this situation with a 5 month old pup more a temperament issue than a relationship/handling issue?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

looked into background -- NOT working lines 

without naming particulars of the pedigree which is a mix of American/Canadian show lines and west German show lines here is some of the pedigree 

V Nick von der Wienerau SchH3	01.59%	06.05%
↳5 - 4 ↳V Kuno vom Weidtweg SchH3 
↳5 - 4 ↳V Flora vom Königsbruch SCHH3 
3 - 4	V Palme vom Wildsteiger Land SCHH2	01.59%	05.27%
4 - 4,5	VA5 Fina vom Badsee SchH3/FH	00.78%	04.10%
↳5 - 5,5 ↳V Wala von der Sturmwolke SchH2 
↳5 - 5 ↳V13 Veit vom Haus Köder SCHH3 
4 - 5	V Wilma von der Kisselschlucht SchH1	00.39%	02.54%
4 - 5	VA5 Lasso di Val Sole SchH3


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

of course the relationship with the dog has to be right too!

babying and coddling and being a servant on call to accommodate every whim corrupts a dog -

go to class and work it out


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

Sounds like a leadership issue.


You are treating your dog like a baby, being passive, sounds like the pup doesn?t respect you. You need to start obideience Training now.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Hi Joy

I will respond to your pm when I get home.

As for Appleridge dogs and Annette as a breeder, I can't give anything positive. Breeder support will be a bunch of useless nonsense but you should let her know of the issues your having. I've not known Appletidge to breed or mix with working lines, she was specifically showlines so I will be surprised if your pup has working lines in pedigree.
I read your post here but didn't see you mention how unusually shy your pup is. This is important information as it helps to understand your pups temperment. The bite could have been out of fear or repercussions she perceived.

I disagree with Selzer's approach, in fact it shows very little understanding of resource guarding dogs and could result in increased aggression. The warning growl around toys and this bite does make me think this may be what your seeing. Conflict by taking things away is not the way to manage these dogs. Trading up as many have mentioned is a conflict free resolution that works very well for both owner and dog. 
If unsure of your handling abilities or assessment of what may be going on, warrants an assessment done by a reputable experienced trainer familiar and suceesful in managing these types of behaviour.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Apex1 said:


> What makes this situation with a 5 month old pup more a temperament issue than a relationship/handling issue?


For example,an insecure, thinner nerved dog is going to perceive a lot of these things differently then a confident, secure dog. That can go both ways as far as good or bad, but gives you an idea on how to handle it, for that relationship.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I'd like to share with you an excerpt on another thread from another new GSD owner that I was very impressed with...



> Another thing is going to be the leadership side of it. I too struggle/struggled with leadership. My dog is a huge lover boy and is glued to me 100%, but he wouldn't listen to me. Then the minute my husband walked in the room my dog would sit, lay down and roll over just to show he was ready to do it if asked! He didn't even have to give a command, the dog was just waiting to do whatever he wanted! It was like my husband had pheremones that just immediately made my dog obey. I nearly tore my hair out. Luckily, my husband was able to observe and point out some things I was doing that were clearly telling my dog "hey, you don't have to listen to me. I'm just a bossy packmate with no teeth." I didn't believe I was so wishy-washy, but when I started correcting MY behavior, it was like a magic wand had been waved over my dog. My failures were primarily with consistency and focus. Consistency really is huge. A leader does not get angry or yell. A leader is calm, gives commands in a normal tone of voice, and expects 100% obedience. If a mistake is made the leader does not beat or hurt their dog, they expect the dog to try again and again until they succeed. A leader is also focused on the dog as much as the dog is supposed to be focused on them.*
> 
> If my dog didn't obey me I used to get upset and gripe about it. If I told him to sit and he just decided to wander off, what did I do? Turn around, grumble and go back to what I was doing. We tried again later, but by not making him follow through, I'd already reinforced that he didn't have to listen if he didn't want to. Sometimes I would even give him a treat for doing a different "good" behavior than what I had asked. How does that inspire anyone to follow? Moreover, how does griping or giving up teach anything? So I had to learn that when my dog doesn't obey me I must require him to do so. All this takes extra effort, yes. Extra time. If we're in the kitchen and I'm busy making dinner and he won't stay away when I tell him, I have to stop what I'm doing and require him to obey me before I continue. It's a process and while I'm getting better and better at it, there are still challenges. Because I didn't start out leading my dog does occasionally challenge me to see what will happen. And there are some bad behaviors (like rewarding other behaviors instead of the one I asked for) that have to be re-shaped. Again, I am learning to expect these challenges and be ready for them. You will likely need to do the same.
> 
> Even with tons of research on how to be a leader for your dog, I still didn't really get it until I experienced it. So if I had to describe leadership based on what I've learned so far, I would say that leadership is about commitment, responsibility and focus. Commitment in that both dog and owner have expectations that are 100% met - the owner expects obedience and the dog expects the owner to be consistent. Responsibility in that the pack leader is responsible for ensuring the safety and health of those in his/her pack (you provide food, shelter, love and never ask a dog to do something beyond his abilities), while the pack members have a responsibility to contribute (they do the job they are asked to do.) And focus - both the leader and the dog are focused on what they are accomplishing together. The leader is not walking the dog down the trail surfing facebook on their phone, or telling the dog to sit/stay while they read a recipe. If your attention is not engaged on your dog, your dog's attention won't be with you either. That's not to say that you have to always be focused on your dog and nothing else, but if you are asking your dog to actually do something, you need to be 100% engaged. Think about it like this: if your husband asked you to get him this super special present he'd been wanting for his birthday and you got that for him, and then he barely even said thank you or acted like it meant anything, why would you ever want to do something nice for him again?


I realize this post doesn't fully mirror your situation. But the advice, 100% focus on your part when asking the dog to do anything, and making sure your own behavior is such that your puppy views you as a legitimate leader are universal!

Hope this helps! All the best...


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## Joys (Nov 6, 2017)

Thank you all. I think I’ve handled Zelda incorrectly and obviously some serious training is in order.

She does guard toys. She even hides new ones and gets them out to play days later. She paws and nudges me when I change blankets in her crate. Like it’s her territory. 
I don’t think Zelda fears me. If anything she’s attempting dominance. 

People ask why I’ve treated her like a baby. All I can say is: “puppy eyes.” Now I have retrain myself.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Joys said:


> Thank you all. I think I’ve handled Zelda incorrectly and obviously some serious training is in order.
> 
> She does guard toys. She even hides new ones and gets them out to play days later. She paws and nudges me when I change blankets in her crate. Like it’s her territory.
> I don’t think Zelda fears me. If anything she’s attempting dominance.
> ...


Don't swing the other way and think you're going stomp in there like Shrek and dominate her. You have a conflict with her, be smart, consistent, and fair in her mind. You want to change her perception, not make her fear you, that's going to be even worse. 

The strongest dog will willingly walk across the yard to give you a toy or a bone if you handle it right. At that point, you can take something if there's really a need, because she won't feel challenged for it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Saphire said:


> Hi Joy
> 
> I will respond to your pm when I get home.
> 
> ...


What part of training, improving leadership, walking the dog away and crating the dog and then picking up the problem article is more likely to increased aggression. At some point, you might have to go in after something. Training now and improving leadership skills will help with this. 

The dog is WGSL, and I have had scads of them. Not one of them would bite me for taking a toy or anything else. At five months old, that is not normal. 

Eh well. It could be poor genetics. It could be poor leadership. Not sure how bad the bite was. I can't get my sister out of my head, saying my dog bit her, when she was offering her steak out of her hand, through the fence and my sister's hand had a little red mark on it. I am trying to picture a 5 month old pup that is biting the owner in multiple places because they took a toy away and disposed of it, and then got another and offered it to her.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

selzer asked "Not sure how bad the bite was."

first post has the answer
little bit of attitude
"Today she became angry, lunged, and clamped down on my arm. She bit several other places "

this needs to be stopped - this plan of action will never , ever, be rewarding to the dog .

training and 100% consistency from now on . Not one set of expectations in the class and then slack off at home.

how has this dog been socialized?
how is it on walks -- when it sees other dogs?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Steve Strom said:


> *Don't swing the other way and think you're going stomp in there like Shrek and dominate her.* You have a conflict with her, be smart, consistent, and fair in her mind. You want to change her perception, not make her fear you, that's going to be even worse.
> 
> The strongest dog will willingly walk across the yard to give you a toy or a bone if you handle it right. At that point, you can take something if there's really a need, because she won't feel challenged for it.


Just curious, is this something you have tried personally, stomp like Shrek? :rofl:


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## Joys (Nov 6, 2017)

Very true, Carmspack. 

She is very socialized. When I first took her out she was shy around people and dogs. Now she still seems leery around people, but doesn’t try to chase joggers or bark at anyone. She was also afraid of big dogs but has gotten better. 

I think I’ve raised her to be a brat, basically. I take her through drive-thru restaurants and of course I get her something to eat. Usually she eats first, before me. I shouldn’t send her the signals that she’s in charge.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Apex1 said:


> What makes this situation with a 5 month old pup more a temperament issue than a relationship/handling issue?


At this point ... no one knows??? Facts seem to be, soft energy from the owner and a puppy that had a serious objection to what the owner did???

Time for a rethink by both parties involved ie puppy and owner?? And no need to go "hog butt wild in the other direction, ie too harsh. Budding resource guarding most likely??? Time to start to "show him what you want" as it were. Sounds like a cool puppy to me.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

mmmm "she was shy around people and dogs."

must have been something similar said on another thread or post "you mention how unusually shy your pup is."

a sound dog can be normal - more forgiving and less changed by problems of management

a shy dog -- temperamental problems will be more affected by management errors - especially indulgences that encourage the temperamental deficiencies . 

you are going to go back to square one and show the dog the new normal .
in your training classes and newly adopted ways of living with and interacting with the dog -- consistent to all household members - rules , expectations of the dog and of course reward - when earned ! lol

" I take her through drive-thru restaurants and of course I get her something to eat"

oh man --- there is barely anything good to be had there for yourself !

for the dog ? fat, greasy, charred , processed --- then there may be additives , MSG which affects breain chemistry and other taste - exciters , 

take the dog for a WALK not a drive 

on the walk keep her attentive to you , mutually aware and connected -- not you on the phone - the dog sniffing and criss crossing , pulling to what interests her.

for anxious animals and people knowing what is expected is security


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

carmspack said:


> mmmm "she was shy around people and dogs."
> 
> must have been something similar said on another thread or post "you mention how unusually shy your pup is."
> 
> ...


As the owner of a shy, anxious dog I agree with this. For any dog but especially one with temperament issues.
Routine, structure and clear, fair rules.
Shadow comes apart quickly with any change to her environment, and that is when I need to step up. Obedience is routine, something safe and known. Sit, walk with me, bring, look at me, touch. Easy stuff.
One of the things I did notice is that if I approach Shadow, especially if she thinks she is in trouble(flawed perception) she is defensive. Calling her to me is a better option.
Exercise. Key to a healthy dog. And a happy one. Far less likely to be nervous if she is tired. 
Crate training. I know when Shadow is getting edgy putting her up for a few minutes helps refocus and calm. Somewhere where she is safe.
I still would not allow or forgive teeth on my person, but if you understand the motivation behind it, it becomes easy to manage.
Get your pup into classes.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Saphire said:


> Hi Joy
> 
> I will respond to your pm when I get home.
> 
> ...


Just to add I also disagree with Selzer. I adopted an adult GSD mix who was a resource guarder and also would snap to defend himself. We worked very hard at trading up, reward for give, and a non confrontational lifestyle. By that I mean...as others mentioned, good management to prevent issues from arising, conditioning taking to mean also getting, and never letting stuff slide but in a gently firm way. 

My current dog is 2 and a half. He was a monster as a baby eating rocks, sticks, dirt, poop, i was CONSTANTLY after him to take things from his mouth. I went above and beyond with the rewards because I didn't want resentment from him. He is not a resource guarder and has an awesome "out".

He has gotten grumpy over certain handling issues. He has growled at me a few times over tending to boo boos and once when we were about to express his anal glands. My policy towards this with him was: your growl isn't going to change what's going to happen, but I just stayed very calm and basically said "I'm sorry but I gotta do what I gotta do, kid. I know you wish I wouldn't but it has to be done". Keep talking to him in a calm voice and praise him for any relaxation or stopping with defensive behavior. But I did also do double duty with rewards conditioning him to tolerate handling. So basically I do everything I can do to make it low stress for him, ignore him if he grumbles at me, reward him when he is good. This has worked really well for us and he has been very good lately. I'd say the last 6 months he has been very good about letting me do anything I need to do to him, he has been good at the vet. I muzzle trained him just in case but I have never felt like he was really going to bite me so I've never used the muzzle at home. But when he growled at me the first time I just said ok, muzzle time. That way I know I can handle it no matter what happens and that confidence of knowing when step 2, 3, 4 are is why I think he doesn't give me any trouble. 

I do muzzle him at the vet when they are right in his face. I honestly can't really imagine him lashing out and biting someone. But he does not like people in his face, he does not like being poked and prodded, he has made some grumbly noises at the vet before. Like when they draw blood from a front leg they are straight up face to face with him, and I muzzle him. My girl will not bite. I know this. My boy....like I said, i can't really imagine it but he is uncomfortable and they are right there and it is preventable. I can say for sure he will never bite during a vet procedure by muzzling him while I can't really say that from a temperament standpoint like I can my girl. So that's what I do. It's probably overkill but I'd rather that than think oh he will never bite while two people are holding him still and digging for a vein and be wrong. 

My old male it depended on who was handling him. A woman who talked nice to him he would let do anything to him. A man with an ego who man handled him would make him very angry. I got where I could see the look in his eye and I knew whether he needed the muzzle or not. He just wanted to be treated with respect and asked to cooperate, and then he would. But if they just grabbed him and did whatever he would get very very angry and get a scary look in his eye. 

Now my young boy prefers it if they just get him no nonsense and get to work. If you try to make friends with him, it's worse. He is like "we are not friends. I don't want your stupid cookie." hesitancy makes him try harder to get away. He does best if they just go to work on him. So they are all different in what they want and need.

So I guess for me all of it is a balance of staying calm--don't get scared, don't get offended, don't get mad. I try to never let a dog get relief by growling. Because that is a slippery slope. But I also try hard to not make them feel like they are in a position where they have to get nasty to defend themselves so I try to keep everything super rewarding and positive. 

Selzer said something about how do you trade for steak...well...my take on it is that it isn't the specifics of the trade it's the mentality. So the dog is accustomed to trading or being rewarded for relinquishing stuff and there is an expectation of fairness, good things, not having to defend or hide stuff in order to have good stuff. If that expectation is there, that basic attitude, when it comes time to take the steak away you've rehearsed this so many times already it's a non issue. Just like anything else in training. My dogs will do things for elss reward and trade things for lesser value after the pattern is established and there isn't an expectation of me taking every high value thing they have for nothing (making them resentful and wanting to guard)


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

carmspack said:


> " I take her through drive-thru restaurants and of course I get her something to eat"
> 
> oh man --- there is barely anything good to be had there for yourself !
> 
> for the dog ? fat, greasy, charred , processed --- then there may be additives , MSG which affects brain chemistry and other taste - exciters ,


LOL I missed this somehow??? But I got to say ... I got nothing to add. 



carmspack said:


> take the dog for a WALK not a drive
> 
> on the walk keep her attentive to you , mutually aware and connected -- not you on the phone - the dog sniffing and criss crossing , pulling to what interests her.
> 
> for anxious animals and people knowing what is expected is security


Hmm, I missed the people think also??? I have to say while I was getting Rocky over his "people issues??" We did that by "Walking" and ignoring people, and he learned to have faith in me and learned to ignore people?? I will say however that we could have ignored a lot more people by driving around town. But I don't think that would have worked as well??? 

I would say however that if I had kept Rocky wrapped in a cocoon of steel and glass and rubber, we could have gone merrily on our way "ignoring thousands of people!" But most likely the only he would have learned from that, is that dad drives kinda fast??? 

Oh well enough silliness back to business. Changes need to start at home and for me this would be a Crate and Place puppy ie no free roaming in the house. Training "Place and doing Sit on the Dog" would make make those options more "viable."

And for out and about and people issues??? As insane as I first thought "Who Pet my puppy or dog was??" And discounting how much I ramped that up, the basics for training your dog to "ignore people" are here.: For the OP the second link. :
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html

And as for the actual importance of "Walking one's dog??" I'll default to Larry Khron,:





So no Shreki behavior required on the OP's part, just to be clear.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Just to add I also disagree with Selzer. I adopted an adult GSD mix who was a resource guarder and also would snap to defend himself. We worked very hard at trading up, reward for give, and a non confrontational lifestyle. By that I mean...as others mentioned, good management to prevent issues from arising, conditioning taking to mean also getting, and never letting stuff slide but in a gently firm way.
> 
> My current dog is 2 and a half. He was a monster as a baby eating rocks, sticks, dirt, poop, i was CONSTANTLY after him to take things from his mouth. I went above and beyond with the rewards because I didn't want resentment from him. He is not a resource guarder and has an awesome "out".
> 
> ...


I have raised 37 WGSL dogs to adulthood. None of them ever needed to be muzzled to be handled at the vet. I could take anything from them, out of their mouths. I never traded up. I don't cut a nail, then give a treat either. When I go through the drive through, my dogs generally get something, and they eat it before me. Not a problem. My dogs do not growl at me. Ever. I don't play with my dogs' food, to ensure I can remove it. 

I don't mind you disagreeing with my advice. Actually, my suggestions were very non-confrontational. But whatever. 

I may know a tiny bit about raising WGSL dogs. 

5 month old puppy attacking and biting, resource guarding. We need a change in leadership. We need consistency in training and management. We may need to throw out everything we think we know about dominant dogs. This dog is a shy dog, probably a fear biter or on the road to that. I don't think the dog needs to be making choices. I think the dog needs to feel very secure in its owner. So secure that it will allow a vet visit without a muzzle, and it will allow the owner to take something away from the dog. The way to accomplish this is not through choices, or through bullying-type leadership. It is by building a bond with the dog through training, consistency, and by being trust-worthy -- not subjecting the dog to tons of stimuli.


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## Joys (Nov 6, 2017)

I appreciate everyone’s input. I learn a lot here and get great advice. 

I hope no one thinks I’m opting to drive Zelda around town instead of walking her. Lol. Basically, I’m with her almost 24-7. She goes wherever I go.. running errands, hotels, stores, the beach, hiking trails, festivals, camping, dog parks...and yes, the dreaded drive-thru restaurants because until recently it’s been too hot to leave her in the car while I eat. 

Again, thank you for the responses.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Joys said:


> I appreciate everyone’s input. I learn a lot here and get great advice.
> 
> I hope no one thinks I’m opting to drive Zelda around town instead of walking her. Lol. Basically, I’m with her almost 24-7. She goes wherever I go.. running errands, hotels, stores, the beach, hiking trails, festivals, camping, dog parks...and yes, the dreaded drive-thru restaurants because until recently it’s been too hot to leave her in the car while I eat.
> 
> Again, thank you for the responses.


No sorry "my" bad. But it was a good line ... I couldn't let it go without saying something silly ... my bad. >


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the dog may very well benefit from some time away from you.

quantity time is not necessarily quality time .

mental health includes being with you and being able to cope with separation -- being without you

being a dog 

when you are with her there should be a connection , not proximity , but focused interest and attention

training . play , inter - action 

time away to just chill -


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

selzer said:


> I have raised 37 WGSL dogs to adulthood. None of them ever needed to be muzzled to be handled at the vet. I could take anything from them, out of their mouths. I never traded up. I don't cut a nail, then give a treat either. When I go through the drive through, my dogs generally get something, and they eat it before me. Not a problem. My dogs do not growl at me. Ever. I don't play with my dogs' food, to ensure I can remove it.
> 
> I don't mind you disagreeing with my advice. Actually, my suggestions were very non-confrontational. But whatever.
> 
> ...


I totally agree that a 5 month old attacking and biting is a major problem warranting a change in leadership, consistency in training and management. As for throwing out what we think we know about dominant dogs...I didn't think the dog was dominant...I know my dog isn't dominant. He is pretty submissive actually. As for my non confrontational comment--not necessarily directed at you Selzer, you say you have the ability to take anything out of your dog's mouths or away from your dogs without trading or rewards, and you can do that non confrontationally, okay. Certainly some dogs will allow that to happen. Certainly some people have the relationship with their dogs that they can do that. There are people and mentalities that are quite confrontational, and without an explanation of how you do what you do I could really see the average pet person coming off as confrontational trying to achieve that without more explanation and getting in trouble. 

As for growling...meh I don't know. My girl is 11 and has never growled at me or any other family member or vet in her life. It's just who she is, how she is. And I was so drastically less experienced when she was young than I am now...that if my handling or leadership was poor she ought to be a growler or have some major issue and she totally doesn't. She just is who she is. 

All my dogs have been unrelated, vastly different lines, many adopted as adults with unknown or known bad backgrounds. Selzer your dogs are of your breeding. If i had 27 dogs I had produced using my girl partly as a foundation bitch maybe she would pass that trait along but again, none of my dogs are related, none of them are even the same or remotely similar lines. 

I've had a couple of dogs that would just never growl no matter what you did, and my two boys who are/were both very vocal growly dogs. Both of them were/are happy growlers, talky growlers, and grumpy grumblers/growlers. I don't think the two of them alone is enough to say but I have wondered if the fact that they are such growly dogs in general makes them more likely to also grumble when they are unhappy. My girl does not talky growl or happy growl. And she does not grumpy growl. Most of what he does almost doesn't qualify as growling, it's grumbling, and although some of them I would call an actual growl, it was not combined with indicators that this is a real problem like freezing, hard stare, posturing. So, I'm not losing sleep over it. He gets more cooperative and easy to handle all the time as he becomes fully adult and we have our system in place. I have felt he was quite mature the last two times he had to go to the vet, and I did muzzle him when they got in his face and it was probably unnecessary but I'm like that. It's not like my dog tried to bite the vet, and had to be subdued with a muzzle. My dog has never tried to bite anyone.

To me it makes sense to use what we know about behavior to our advantage, condition our dogs to happily cooperate with certain things by trading, counter condition with food, ect. You don't want to do that with your dogs that's fine. Obviously it works good for you with your dogs. 

When I adopted my old male there was no trust. It took me months to even get him to look at my face, he would not look at people. He was totally shut down and disconnected from the human race. And he was a resource guarder. And he was pretty food motivated, so I was able to get to work straightening him out right off the bat and he turned completely around. 

I have no way of knowing if my boy would have developed a resentment about all the stuff I had to take out of his mouth when he was a baby...he was just awful about eating junk that didn't belong in his mouth or stomach. I like preventative measures. So I did trade and reward for outs and spits and everything else. I have seen plenty of dogs whose owners were just going to take what they wanted because I'm the human and it's my right and those dogs are running away with their loot or growling to guard their loot, or wolfing it down at warp speed.,, ect ect...

Last...I like things with steps. Like, I have a whole book on how to deal with resource guarding in steps that are easy to follow. When someone says "your dog should trust you to take whatever out of their mouth and your dog should never growl at you"...well...to the average joe schmo pet owner, how is this achieved? Are we talking just an intangible way of being? Dogs aren't born knowing english. So saying "eh, leave it" doesn't mean jack until we teach the dog how to "leave it" then proof it according to the 3ds to the point that the dog actually CAN "leave it" with an enticing bait under distraction...


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

I can see it from both sides depending on the dog


I would agree more with selzer and that what I did with both of mine. They would never in a million years growl or snap at me. My cattle dog used to be a resource guarder as well. Didn’t take long to get her over that. Kona will also bite when she’s overexcited and has the zoomies but she’s just a puppy, although it’s not encouraged of course.

When kona was younger though we practiced retrieval’s of items and she would get rewarded when giving me the item....so I guess that actually was a “trade” but my cattle dog was never trained like that.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

There are multiple ways to get things done as it were?? I don't recall doing the toy trade thing to any great degree?? But I did still manage to train "Drop it, Out and Leave it" with my puppies although with my Boxer, "No" as a command became very useful. Always something with that problem child.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

When I took max to puppy classes I learned the toy trade thing. I used it thought it was great. With little kids around I liked the idea who knows if it was needed. I thought it was good to prevent any bad habits and I would always do it. Max thought it more like a game to take something and lure me around the house. It ends the game right alway and everyone is good. There are more then one way of doing things if it works there is not problem. I countered condition the heck with nail trims and nail dremels. Max now may grump and complain if a nail is sensitive. He is good though. I don’t say a thing a just keep going with each nail. It is a quick 5 minutes. He will run upstairs though if he knows I’m going to get the dremel lol! Luna runs to the spot waits for me to dremel her nails. I use treats after a paw it works for me. I do not need treats now but still use them.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Joy, I just accept possessiveness as part of a dogs temperament to one degree or another. Without going into the weeds about that, if you just look at this as a training issue and teach her what you want, you'll be fine.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Steve Strom said:


> So you had already taken it and thrown it away when she bit you? So like Dogma said, at that point I'd think she's kinda defending herself from the grabbing, those parts of it all. *Try calmly calling her to you instead of you going back to her.* See if that just in general changes how she reacts with you.


I did that a lot with Keefer and Halo when they were young, I taught them to bring me things for a reward. Usually it was something of theirs, like a toy or bone, I'd praise enthusiastically, reward with a treat, and give it back. When it was something they weren't supposed to have, I simply didn't return it after praising and rewarding. All I had to do was ask what they had and could I see it, and they'd happily bring it and show me.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> As for my non confrontational comment--not necessarily directed at you Selzer, you say you have the ability to take anything out of your dog's mouths or away from your dogs without trading or rewards, and you can do that non confrontationally, okay.


I can take anything away from my dogs too, and I don't use trading or rewards anymore. It seems to be a very pervasive myth that if you use trading games and rewards *as a training method, to build trust and prevent potential future guarding issues*, then you have to continue doing that forever. That's simply not true. 

This is foundation training, that's all. It's being proactive, to avoid issues from cropping up later, because a problem avoided is one that never has to be fixed later, after it's already become entrenched. But every time someone mentions it, someone else invariably says they don't need to reward their dog for giving up something they shouldn't have, and they don't need to trade up to something more valuable. *sigh*


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Selzer said something about how do you trade for steak...well...my take on it is that it isn't the specifics of the trade it's the mentality. So the dog is accustomed to trading or being rewarded for relinquishing stuff and there is an expectation of fairness, good things, not having to defend or hide stuff in order to have good stuff. If that expectation is there, that basic attitude, when it comes time to take the steak away you've rehearsed this so many times already it's a non issue. Just like anything else in training. My dogs will do things for less reward and trade things for lesser value after the pattern is established and there isn't an expectation of me taking every high value thing they have for nothing (making them resentful and wanting to guard)





> To me it makes sense to use what we know about behavior to our advantage, condition our dogs to happily cooperate with certain things by trading, counter condition with food, ect.





> I have no way of knowing if my boy would have developed a resentment about all the stuff I had to take out of his mouth when he was a baby...he was just awful about eating junk that didn't belong in his mouth or stomach. I like preventative measures. So I did trade and reward for outs and spits and everything else. I have seen plenty of dogs whose owners were just going to take what they wanted because I'm the human and it's my right and those dogs are running away with their loot or growling to guard their loot, or wolfing it down at warp speed.,, ect ect...





> When someone says "your dog should trust you to take whatever out of their mouth and your dog should never growl at you"...well...to the average joe schmo pet owner, how is this achieved? Are we talking just an intangible way of being? Dogs aren't born knowing english. So saying "eh, leave it" doesn't mean jack until we teach the dog how to "leave it" then proof it according to the 3ds to the point that the dog actually CAN "leave it" with an enticing bait under distraction...


Big thumbs up to all of the above - excellent posts, Thecowboysgirl!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Joys said:


> I appreciate everyone’s input. I learn a lot here and get great advice.
> 
> I hope no one thinks I’m opting to drive Zelda around town instead of walking her. Lol. Basically, I’m with her almost 24-7. She goes wherever I go.. running errands, hotels, stores, the beach, hiking trails, festivals, camping, dog parks...and yes, the dreaded drive-thru restaurants because until recently it’s been too hot to leave her in the car while I eat.
> 
> Again, thank you for the responses.


I tend to look at most things with an eye towards obedience. Their temperament is what it is, so you'll find dogs that a lot of things aren't that big a deal and you can do almost anything and get away with it. We've had a couple like that. A Lab and an English Setter. My Shepherds or my Rotts don't have that type of temperament.You just pay attention to how your dog handles or reacts to things. Its not taking her through the drive through that matters, did she behave when you were there.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Thecowboysgirl said:
> 
> 
> > As for my non confrontational comment--not necessarily directed at you Selzer, you say you have the ability to take anything out of your dog's mouths or away from your dogs without trading or rewards, and you can do that non confrontationally, okay.
> ...


Well it also just occurred to me because of what you said Cassidy's mom...trading and doing other proactive, reward based stuff does not mean I can't take something from my dog unless I trade for it. and I wonder if that is how people take it? I mean jeez, I CAN take anything from any of my dogs, too, without trading, rewards or anything else. But I believe in it as a training method.

I mean, when I had just adopted my resource guarder the neighbor's dog came over and dropped this huge rawhide bone. My dog got it. This ridiculous giant 2 ft raw hide. Now the neighbor says can I please have my dog's bone back and I have to take it from the dog. We were new to each other...i had done no training yet for the guarding. I did take it, he got no trade or reward because I didn't have anything. He growled and clamped on it. I said too bad. We had a bit of a standoff and then he gave it up.

Lastly about the growling for handling with my dog...the first time he did it I got kind of self righteous with him, like are you kidding me? How dare you growl at me, you better never do that again. Here is what I learned from that: he growls when he is stressed, scared, in pain or all of the above if he thinks you are about to cause him pain. when I got mad at him he was more stressed and more defensive. When I was more gentle with him and gave him predictable routines about how we would do certain things that upset him and paired with rewards, he stopped growling. Obviously that approach wont work for a dog who is growling to be a bully. But it seems to be working for us. If it turns out I am wrong then I will change my tune and try something else...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I can take anything away from my dogs too, and I don't use trading or rewards anymore. It seems to be a very pervasive myth that if you use trading games and rewards *as a training method, to build trust and prevent potential future guarding issues*, then you have to continue doing that forever. That's simply not true.
> 
> This is foundation training, that's all. It's being proactive, to avoid issues from cropping up later, because a problem avoided is one that never has to be fixed later, after it's already become entrenched. But every time someone mentions it, someone else invariably says they don't need to reward their dog for giving up something they shouldn't have, and they don't need to trade up to something more valuable. *sigh*


I think we make the most mistakes with our first dog, in part because we read everything and try to listen to everyone. I made a ton of mistakes with my first boy. Like giving him things, then taking them away, pretending to nibble on them, and then giving them back to him. Good thing he wasn't a resource guarder, because it is a good way to create one. And the whole time you are thinking that you are setting a foundation, doing a good thing that will prevent problems down the road. 

Of course I did that with the next dog, and the next dog. And one day, I thought, this is stupid and unnecessary. If my dogs were prone to becoming a resource guarder than this would probably ensure that it happen. 

I started raising dogs before dogs were so complicated though. Before there was positive only training. I suppose when the Kholer(sp?) method was the going thing. Choke chains and such. We may have gone 180 degrees in the other direction, but I have never seen or heard of so many people having so many behavioral issues with dogs. 

Hating to anthropomorphize dogs, it is like children of abusive parents raising their kids with no discipline at all, and having kids who are troubled and unhappy with as many issues as the former. 

Oh, I haven't stuck with the old yank and crank methods. I am not saying that at all. Most of the excellent trainers I have worked with have started with them, and have evolved. I like to think that I learn something with all of my dogs. But, the tougher ones do teach you more. And the more experience I have with dogs, the less I need to use corrections. Not because I decided at some point that I am not going to give any corrections to my dogs, but because previous dogs have taught me how to be consistent. The next pup gets it because it isn't struggling with a lot of inconsistencies. And they trust me because I am consistent/trustworthy. Because I have realistic expectations and do not come down on them for things they can't possibly know yet. 

An experienced trainer can get a dog they have never met before to do something in front of the group that their owners have been trying to get them to do for weeks. Why, because of that experience. Throw your heart over the fence and the horse will follow. Confidence, consistency. 

I can take anything from my dogs because I have a relationship with them, because I am confident, and trustworthy. If it is a puppy, and I grab a hold of them, and remove something from their mouths, I tell them, "Mine." And then I might show them a toy and say, "Yours" and give it to them. It is part of house training. It isn't trading up. It is teaching a pup what they can and cannot have. And they do understand MINE, and YOURS. They are like two year olds. That is simple re-directing them from chewing on a table leg, or grabbing the kitchen towel. 

There is a beauty in believing in a Creator God. Puppies are not born like sharks, fully capable of surviving on their own. Most puppies are born in the area of a pound -- even dogs that are going to be 180 pounds at full grown. Maybe little dogs are significantly smaller, I don't know. But the point is, puppies are small, even big dogs have little, manageable pups. Ideally, by the time puppies are big enough to be dangerous, they have already decided that you are trustworthy, and do have every right to relieve them of something they should not have, that you are more important than anything they may have snagged. And if you aren't constantly taking stuff from them, then there is no reason for them to run or hide things from you, or growl and guard them, or fly at you and bite you -- which is still inconceivable to me for a five month old pup. 

Cowboygirl, yeah a lot of those dogs were my lines. Or became my lines a generation or two later. Half a dozen of them I did buy from other breeders of varying reputability. But mostly, they were 1st generation or second generation and a few 3rd generations out from dogs I purchased or bred to. 

And I have gotten other dogs back -- not the 37. Dogs brought back at 6 months or so, or purchased as adults. I had a bitch that wouldn't look at me, and wanted nothing to do with people. Not a resource guarder though. But she did have to learn to trust me. Anyhow, I've had a cross-section of dogs. 

Foundations? Yeah, I am all for setting up good foundations. But I am not sold on a lot of the new stuff people do. Like giving a dog a treat after each toenail. That draws out a toenail clipping that should be over and done with in 2-3 minutes to half an hour or an hour. It becomes an ordeal. Holding a struggling puppy and cutting the 18 nails, quickly and confidently, without letting any amount of squirming or struggling to stop you, and the puppy walks away, a few minutes later still alive, whether he's been nicked or not, and it doesn't have to be an ordeal forever. 

So I am a little old school when it comes to some stuff. I do not condition a dog to a muzzle. I think I have one in the back of my car. If it is necessary, I will put it on the dog -- mostly I will use them during breeding for the bitch, if I am breeding to an outside stud. Protects the stud dog, until they are tied, then you can take it off. 

And the reason people have so many failures with positive training is the same reason they need corrections, the same reason they have trouble with socialization, the same reason dogs have issues with resource guarding, puppy biting, house training, and all of it. It's not the dogs. If it were the dogs we would be in a world of trouble. It isn't even the method of training. It is the execution of training. Any method if applied consistently will provide results. You can tweak your results, by choosing the best method for dog/handler team. But the vast majority of what is wrong with dogs is lack of confidence and consistency which translates into fear and confusion for the dogs, and they respond in a variety of ways: shutting down, aggression, reactivity, guarding, voiding, etc. 

Sure you can make a game out of getting a dog to release objects for you. Nothing wrong with that. Though the astute dog, might think twice about whether they want to give this particular thing up or not. Getting something from a dog is a life skill. Like recall. Some things I don't want to have them question. I don't want them ever to think they have a choice. So, I wait a whole lot longer before going off lead with the recall. And I don't play games when I want something out of my dog's mouth.


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## Armistice (Oct 12, 2017)

selzer said:


> I started raising dogs before dogs were so complicated though. Before there was positive only training. I suppose when the Kholer(sp?) method was the going thing. Choke chains and such. We may have gone 180 degrees in the other direction, but I have never seen or heard of so many people having so many behavioral issues with dogs.


So your take is that there are so many problems because of positive training? (Totally a question for clarification)


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

Positive only training could work im sure but it would take so long to get it done. But part of the problem is people want working dogs to be pets because they like a certain look or whatever.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Armistice said:


> So your take is that there are so many problems because of positive training? (Totally a question for clarification)


Not at all. Positive training works, like all other training works, if it is properly executed. 

Positive training appeals to people who are sweet and kind and soft-hearted. Unfortunately, sweetness and kindness and soft-heartedness, are not the best attributes for leadership when dealing with a strong dog. And, it's only part of the equation. We need to be kind and patient, yes, but also firm and consistent. Positive training cannot equal permissiveness. And, positive training still needs to have ALL the elements of good training: consistency, timing, repetition, engagement, reasonable age-specific expectations, and so on. 

If you have enough experience to be consistent, in your body language and verbally and in your timing, and you are patient and have reasonable expectations, you really won't need a lot of corrections. Your communication is clear to the dog, and that's more than half the battle. 

What happens when newbies and positive training collide, the pup is confused and finds it impossible to trust your leadership. When newbies put a prong on the dog and use corrections, the dog might trust the leadership more readily because the owner doesn't seem like a total push-over, weak, maybe crazy leader. With a prong, the dog is getting a clear negative marker, and that may actually provide some faith in the leadership as crazy as that may sound. 

A dog that does not trust the leadership of the owner is in a totally bad place. They can become reactive because they do not trust the owner to protect them. They can fall into bad habits because there is no clear negative markers, and even if there is, the owner may or may not instil enough incentive. "No, Honey, don't do that?!? You do not want to make Mommy mad, do you?" It sounds crazy, but most of us have heard stuff like this. This sort of _guardianship_ is NOT kind, NOT humane, Not sweet. It is self-serving, and even cruel. 

There are so many problems because of the other end of the leash. There are people out there willing to put prongs and e-collars on baby puppies, with unrealistic expectations, while applying erroneous dominance-based leadership, and other trainers who are afraid to provide anything but nagging baby-talk or no negative markers at all. Too many people who are inconsistent, and then reactive to the pup's inability to perform what they expect the dog to do, sometimes allowing their frustration to leak out to where the pup perceives it up to the point where the pup is frightened by an unbalanced reactivity of the owner.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

selzer said:


> Cassidy's Mom said:
> 
> 
> > I can take anything away from my dogs too, and I don't use trading or rewards anymore. It seems to be a very pervasive myth that if you use trading games and rewards *as a training method, to build trust and prevent potential future guarding issues*, then you have to continue doing that forever. That's simply not true.
> ...


I was mostly on board until we got to this part about the astute dog choosing whether they want to make this trade. I think if the dog is choosing it was done totally wrong in the first place. I don't offer stuff to my dogs and say "wouldn't you rather have this than that" 

And I think this is the crux of the misunderstanding about reward training...

Seller you said "if you aren't constantly taking stuff from them there is no reason for them to run and hide" okay so what about the people who end up with puppies like my most recent was. He was HORRIBLE about sticks, rocks, dirt,


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

selzer said:


> Cassidy's Mom said:
> 
> 
> > I can take anything away from my dogs too, and I don't use trading or rewards anymore. It seems to be a very pervasive myth that if you use trading games and rewards *as a training method, to build trust and prevent potential future guarding issues*, then you have to continue doing that forever. That's simply not true.
> ...


I was mostly on board until we got to this part about the astute dog choosing whether they want to make this trade. I think if the dog is choosing it was done totally wrong in the first place. I don't offer stuff to my dogs and say "wouldn't you rather have this than that" It's a knee jerk reaction, handing stuff over is great. Not weighing which item is better.

And I think this is the crux of the misunderstanding about reward training...and I couldn't agree more Selzer that the application of the method is poor, not the method...and an awful lot of people trying to do reward training ARE doing it wrong and so the dog is waiting for the owner to whip out the food and try to bribe them because that's the best they have been taught. I am just not convinced that poorly done reward training is any worse than poorly done yank and crank. Poor training is poor training.

I have seen dogs in this "choice" phase-- though not with trading/ outing, but with recalls. And I even had this conversation recently with an agility friend who is super into Susan Garrett and did all this "It's yer choice" stuff and she said she did not want to take away her dog's choice of whether to recall--she wants them to make the right choice. My immediate response was same as you Selzer, I don't want my dogs considering whether or not to recall!! Boy if I say that word I want them hauling in at warp speed without a thought, and I said to her-- if I let my boy stand there and choose between me and a deer, I know darn well what his response would be. And because that's his best idea of what's good for him, he doesn't get a choice about it. That's like telling a child they can choose whether or not to look before crossing the road---bad example...but it is giving the dog power to make choices as if they understand the possible consequences of their actions which they totally don't and therefore it needs to be left to an adult human. So no, they get no choice about recall. But they do still get a reward for doing it- because that's how I get warp speed vs. the dogs I see marching in on a recall like it's the green mile. 

Seller you said "if you aren't constantly taking stuff from them there is no reason for them to run and hide" okay so what about the people who end up with puppies like my most recent was. He was HORRIBLE about sticks, rocks, dirt, so I WAS constantly taking stuff from him. I would mostly say he just grew out of it, though some was training but mostly it was just how he was when he was little. Oh and lets not forget his phase of poop is great and oh my goodness fresh poop comes out my butt!

BTW I also agree Selzer that some dogs do better just getting the toe trim over with and not wishy washying about it. If you give them a choice it gives them more anxiety. My boy is like that. I have had dogs that did better with other types of handling but my boy does better if you just tie him up and get it over with. The anticipation is worse than the actual thing so it's better to just get it done.

bottom line my philosophy is this: I already signed on to feed my dogs every day for the rest of their lives, and if I can use some of that food to make mundane or unpleasant stuff more rewarding for them to get snappier or happier cooperation, then I will.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

There's an old axiom in dog training Joy. "Don't pick a fight, because if you pick a fight, you have to win it" I'll tell you right now Joy, I can not win a fight with my dog. Most people can understand dogs temperaments vary, they don't all just lay down for us, and we can't always intimidate them into it either. Even the ones that you can, lets see the actual results and the complete effect. 

You already have a conflict there, be smart and work with her in a way that doesn't create conflict. There's going to be things you'll correct her for as you go along, but the more you train with her in a way that she succeeds at, it will make her want to do it that way and minimize those things.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Seller you said "if you aren't constantly taking stuff from them there is no reason for them to run and hide" okay so what about the people who end up with puppies like my most recent was. He was HORRIBLE about sticks, rocks, dirt, so I WAS constantly taking stuff from him.


Just going to leave this here....


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Perfect post. Getting ready to carve the turkey. Will she give you the drumstick? Or will you have to take it?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Steve Strom said:


> You already have a conflict there, be smart and work with her in a way that doesn't create conflict. There's going to be things you'll correct her for as you go along, but the more you train with her in a way that she succeeds at, it will make her want to do it that way and minimize those things.



This. :thumbup: The more I can show a puppy that doing what *I* want is what's going to make what *they* want happen, the less I have to correct them down the road for _not_ doing it. Not never, just much less frequently.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Steve Strom said:


> Perfect post. Getting ready to carve the turkey. Will she give you the drumstick? Or will you have to take it?


That's pretty high value. I might have to pry her jaws open and take it. :rofl:


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Doc trades for gizzards.


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## Joys (Nov 6, 2017)

I’ve already learned a lot from the responses. 

The morning she bit me, she had been finding things she shouldn’t have in her mouth. It’s amazing what puppies find. I did the trade thing several times. I wasn’t angry but she wasn’t amused. 
The last time I walked to the trash before the swap. I was walking back to her, I think I had started to kneel looking for something to give her when she lunged. 

We start class Wednesday. I’ve seriously studied each of your responses. I’m changing the way she views me. I’ve stopped letting her pull me on a leash and I don’t just randomly hand out treats. I’m teaching her that leave it really does mean leave it. And “no” and “stay” aren’t merely requests.


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## Armistice (Oct 12, 2017)

selzer said:


> What happens when newbies and positive training collide, the pup is confused and finds it impossible to trust your leadership. When newbies put a prong on the dog and use corrections, the dog might trust the leadership more readily because the owner doesn't seem like a total push-over, weak, maybe crazy leader. With a prong, the dog is getting a clear negative marker, and that may actually provide some faith in the leadership as crazy as that may sound.


I've gotten flak for saying that if my pup bites, she gets a whack. However, it's taught her faster than just rewarding a bite with redirecting with a toy "I bite dad and I get a toy and playtime!"

Her bites have gone down to mostly open mouth or small nips. We've been working on only licking, so she gets lots of praise and pets for licking instead of mouthing/ nipping (the latter 2 get nothing and fun stops)



Thecowboysgirl said:


> Seller you said "if you aren't constantly taking stuff from them there is no reason for them to run and hide" okay so what about the people who end up with puppies like my most recent was. He was HORRIBLE about sticks, rocks, dirt,


My pup LOVED to pick up the wood chips outside. I was always trying to get them out of her mouth. After a few weeks, I got tired and she'd get a leash pop with a "NO!" if she started looking/ smelling chips. I've lately started teaching "leave it" and it's been working a little better


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

My buddies in PA have a pup a few weeks younger than Kojak. They are totally different dogs. Both are WGSL, but he is Pennsylvania bred, and my boy is Illinois bred. Still, there are quite a few near ancestors that are in common. You'd think they'd be kind of similar. 

They are not. 

He has two experienced GSD owners (both retired) to him alone. I think he is their 8th GSD, all having had them one at a time. So combined, there is little less than 100 years of GSD experience there. And Kojak, my boy, has just the bit of me that is left over from work and the rest of my lot. 

My guy was never bitey, the breeder said he wasn't an alligator, and I am really happy for that. There guy has had them in bandages every time I went over. (It is getting better now that he is nearing a year) Happy birthday Kojak, yesterday! And their boy is crazy about eating rocks and sticks and anything and everything. My guy has never bothered with a stick or rock. I don't know why. It is just so. 

I was going to put some quick line about if I had a dog that wanted to eat rocks, I'd have him on lead whenever we were out and before he had a chance to snatch one up, and would increase the distance between and get his attention on me. Then I remembered Odin. So, I am not sure what the answer is there. I think that I could outwit the dog on that, and I think that the real answer is providing the type of leadership that allows you to take it if necessary without creating a dog that resents it. 

As for poop. Yeah, I do have the best dog ever. I moved him out of Jenna's area when she went into heat and put him in the new kennel with Lassie. It's a large kennel on the side and front of my house, on concrete. Because I wanted it kept clean and neat, I put down some 2x4x8s in the shape of a large cot and filled it with cedar chips to give Lassie a toilet area. Of course, I found everything BUT poop in there. Whatever, she isn't the sharpest tool in the shed. But Kojak got that immediately, and so having two dogs in that area, which is huge about 25' by 15' with a little more curling around the front, is like having only one. So, not a poop eater, and a dog that likes to keep his area clean. Or likes to poop on wood chips. Whichever. It's like a bonus. He did eat the cot though. Ah well, perfect is in Heaven.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Armistice said:


> *I've gotten flak for saying that if my pup bites, she gets a whack. However, it's taught her faster than just rewarding a bite with redirecting with a toy "I bite dad and I get a toy and playtime!"
> 
> Her bites have gone down to mostly open mouth or small nips. We've been working on only licking, so she gets lots of praise and pets for licking instead of mouthing/ nipping (the latter 2 get nothing and fun stops)
> *
> ...


Yeah, well, I expect you did get some flack for that. Negative markers can be anything from an Eh! or No! to a collar correction. Striking a dog is generally frowned upon. For one thing, in order to eliminate a behavior by providing a physical punishment harsh enough for them to actually see it as punishment, it has to be close to abusive. Otherwise, a dog can easily just be ramped up by it, or, it will make it that much harder to provide a Come-To-Jesus moment with the dog if it ever does something really serious. Hitting a puppy for puppy biting also lowers you in pack order. 

Dogs are smart. They know we humans are not dogs, and if there is a pack of dogs in the home where they live we are not a part of their hierarchy at all. BUT, a dog will follow a human leader, and will give the human leader a level of devotion, I suppose you can call it. Maybe respect is a better word. It depends on how trustworthy you are. If the dog views you as consistent and fair, a leader that will be followed and who will follow through, and is not crazy -- Dogs are not attracted to instability. And a leader who rules with physical strength, in the wild by fighting, is very weak and will not last at all. 

Dogs understand eye contact, body language, much more than words or whips, and "love taps." So what smacking a puppy for puppy biting does, is lowers your leadership status in the pup's doggy brain. A better leader would remove his hands, stand up straight and stop the game. Or would put the puppy in its safe place for a nap/stopping the game and ignoring the attention seeking puppy. 

When a dog-leader corrects a puppy, there is generally no contact at all. The most forward and confident pup might be snarled at or even snapped at, but generally there is little more than a brushing off. 

When we use our strength and violence toward our critters or our kids, they can quickly realize with maturity that that is all we have, and it is an invitation to test their metal against us. And why do that when standing erect, using eye contact and giving a disapproving tone is generally enough to cow a dog-pup?


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## Bramble (Oct 23, 2011)

I have also recently read that being using physical punishment with a puppy or dog can cause them believe it is okay to be physical back. I thought it was an interesting thing to consider, especially with puppies who are still very much in the learning stage of how to interact with people appropriately. 

https://thecognitivecanine.com/2011/12/08/the-trouble-with-manhandling/


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## Armistice (Oct 12, 2017)

Yes, you give valid points

And it's because of those I've gone to a more hands off approach the last few weeks with licks get praise, and bites get nothing


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Bramble said:


> I have also recently read that being using physical punishment with a puppy or dog can cause them believe it is okay to be physical back. I thought it was an interesting thing to consider, especially with puppies who are still very much in the learning stage of how to interact with people appropriately.
> 
> https://thecognitivecanine.com/2011/12/08/the-trouble-with-manhandling/


Although there are times when you need to take a direct approach, I do believe that dogs, like children, learn what they live. 

In general I try to reserve the "hands on" style of punishment for those moments when you need to make a serious impression, right this second. I had a pup bolt out a door onto a stupidly busy road. She got grabbed by the scruff, in the middle of screeching tires, and walloped. For the rest of her life that dog would stop at a road and await further instructions. It was probably the only time I put hands on her to punish.

And the idiot that left the door opened got a tuning as well.


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## bkernan (May 17, 2009)

Wouldn’t walloping a dog once you’ve caught him or her disobeying recall then in turn adversely affect it in the future? I’ve been so scared about not having great recall with Hudson I don’t correct him ever if he comes to me. Just wondering!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

bkernan said:


> Wouldn’t walloping a dog once you’ve caught him or her disobeying recall then in turn adversely affect it in the future? I’ve been so scared about not having great recall with Hudson I don’t correct him ever if he comes to me. Just wondering!


Never correct a dog when it comes to you. And never call a dog to correct it.
I caught her in the middle of the road. There was no recall.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Absolutely! Coming to you is better than chopped liver, every single time. Never, never call the dog to you to punish. Because you are then punishing the recall, not the turds in the living room or the trash strewn about, or your convertable's leather seats chewed beyond recognition. If you absolutely have to punish the pup for your lack of supervision, than go and get him and bring him to the offending mess. It probably will do no more than make your pup fearful of you and confused, but don't call him to you to bawl him out.


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## Davefrida (Sep 23, 2017)

selzer said:


> Maybe WL dogs are different than WGSL dogs in this respect, but I disagree that an owner should have to trade objects to remove anything from your dog. What if you have a cooked steak, bone and all, that your dog just took. The last time he took one of these, he had diarrhea for days because of the cooked bones, or fat, a intolerance to beef? Nothing in the world is more enticing than steak. You cannot whip out a milk bone and say, "drop it, here you want this, trade!" Dogs aren't that dumb. They know the steak is the best thing their mouth has been around, and they already know that the stinky dry milkbone is not as exciting. Then what?
> 
> The dog is five months old. And it is biting the owner over things? Time to call the breeder and have a heart to heart discussion about the dog. The breeder should know her lines and be able to give you good pointers.
> 
> ...


Amazing advice thanks for that. Great stuff


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I don't trade either, never have, never needed to, and will only if the dog I'm working with requires it!

This last point is particularly important. For some dogs it's a REQUIREMENT. For others, not so much. Always work with the dog in front of you!


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Let me clarify what I mean. All dogs are different, each has its own history and learned behavior. It's important to evaluate YOUR dog and proceed accordingly. My experience with my dog might be helpful or harmful...only you can tell. So most important, read and respond to the dog you're working with...help him understand what you want. Everything else is just noise....


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

yes do call -- 

***REMOVED BT MODERATOR- NO BREEDER BASHING***
smarten up your management with this dog

no babying, no coddling , no catering as if you are the servant to the dogs every whim.

get the relationship back to a healthy one 

don't feed junk food -- junky kibble , which affect behaviour


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

tim_s_adams said:


> Let me clarify what I mean. All dogs are different, each has its own history and learned behavior. It's important to evaluate YOUR dog and proceed accordingly. My experience with my dog might be helpful or harmful...only you can tell. So most important, read and respond to the dog you're working with...help him understand what you want. Everything else is just noise....



Yes, dogs are individuals. But, I think it is even more true to say all owners/handlers are different. Dogs are simple creatures. Yes, they have individual traits. But there is more in them akin than there is different. And another fellow can take on a dog that maybe be anxious to the point of fear-biting with you, and under that person's leadership, may straighten up and no problem. If this is the case, who is at fault? The dog or the handler. 

And you can say, I have had six or seven dogs, and this one is totally different. It is defective. Well, just because you have had six or seven easy dogs does not mean the challenging one is defective. And if another can take that dog and make a superstar out of it, than is the dog defective? And the six or seven easy dogs could never be a superstar because they did not have the right drive, or couldn't work independently, or whatever, maybe those easy dogs were the defective ones, but they made good pets, because they were easily manageable for you. 

I believe that there are different temperaments, different character in dogs. Not necessarily defective, be effective for different roles. And the actual numbers of defective dogs out there is actually really low, dogs who because of terribly weak nerves will never live in any situation where they are not a danger, dogs whose drive and energy is so high they cannot function within a family, dogs with rage-syndrome, dogs that violently attack and try to kill other dogs or babies/children. These dogs are actually very few and far between.

The rest of the dogs out there that are not functioning well, where they are placed, the vast majority of dogs that are having issues, are simply reacting poorly to bad management, dysfunctional leadership, and ineffective training, because somewhere in this generation we have lost our ability to keep dogs.


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## Kyrielle (Jun 28, 2016)

selzer said:


> The rest of the dogs out there that are not functioning well, where they are placed, the vast majority of dogs that are having issues, are simply reacting poorly to bad management, dysfunctional leadership, and ineffective training, because somewhere in this generation we have lost our ability to keep dogs.


I'm not sure why that is. Maybe it's because this generation isn't focused on raising a human family anymore and instead replaces children for pets--especially dogs. I would hazard a guess, a wild guess at that, that when humans are focused on raising humans and that becomes the most important societal function, pets get put in the backseat. They're second bananas. And I also wonder if getting put in the backseat is _the best thing for them_. If they're not considered equal with the humans, then they're expected to behave less like humans and more like animals. I suppose the result would be dogs being allowed to act like dogs, and to be treated, trained, and cared for as an animal rather than a human. Which would probably mean people creating and enforcing house rules...instead of babying them and worrying about every little thing when it comes to the dog's behavior.

Of course, the problem is likely very complicated and multifaceted and I'm barely even scratching the surface.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Kyrielle said:


> I'm not sure why that is. Maybe it's because this generation isn't focused on raising a human family anymore and instead replaces children for pets--especially dogs. I would hazard a guess, a wild guess at that, that when humans are focused on raising humans and that becomes the most important societal function, pets get put in the backseat. They're second bananas. And I also wonder if getting put in the backseat is _the best thing for them_. If they're not considered equal with the humans, then they're expected to behave less like humans and more like animals. I suppose the result would be dogs being allowed to act like dogs, and to be treated, trained, and cared for as an animal rather than a human. Which would probably mean people creating and enforcing house rules...instead of babying them and worrying about every little thing when it comes to the dog's behavior.
> 
> Of course, the problem is likely very complicated and multifaceted and I'm barely even scratching the surface.


Yes, I think that is part of it, but even people with kids seem to not know how to manage a dog anymore. Of course, a lot of people with kids are not raising them all that well either. I have never had kids, and I am actually pretty good with dogs. But I respect dogs. 

But when a dog is expected to be furry humans, it is not a place that dogs are comfortable occupying. Doggy day-care. Children need day care and kindergarten. And dog parks. Children need parks, and adults too, and dogs can really enjoy those parks with their humans. Expecting dogs to run and play with any given variety of dogs, unless the dog has a specific make-up, that isn't natural to canines. 

Now let's get back to respect. Think about this, if you are a man, how would you like it if people were treating you like you are as good as a woman, think like a woman, etc., all like it is some wonderful compliment. Or vice-versa. You are a woman and people are treating you like a man, and expecting you to be a man, and complimenting you for thinking like a man? How does that make you feel. Like being a woman is less. Now, I am not saying dogs reason stuff out, but expecting dogs to be furry humans, treating them like furry humans, that they think like humans is terribly disrespectful of dogs. 

They are dogs, awesome creatures on their own merit. And when our expectations for them are in line with who a canine is, I think a lot of things fall into place. It isn't the whole thing. I think part of it is this demeaning, soft, wishy-washing, I don't want to offend anyone mentality too.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

carmspack said:


> yes do call --
> 
> ***removed by moderator- no breeder bashing ***
> smarten up your management with this dog
> ...



***removed by moderator***


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

*MODERATOR REMINDER*

There is NO breeder bashing allowed on this forum. Please keep negative comments to PMs.


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## Kyrielle (Jun 28, 2016)

selzer said:


> Yes, I think that is part of it, but even people with kids seem to not know how to manage a dog anymore. Of course, a lot of people with kids are not raising them all that well either. I have never had kids, and I am actually pretty good with dogs. But I respect dogs.
> 
> But when a dog is expected to be furry humans, it is not a place that dogs are comfortable occupying. Doggy day-care. Children need day care and kindergarten. And dog parks. Children need parks, and adults too, and dogs can really enjoy those parks with their humans. Expecting dogs to run and play with any given variety of dogs, unless the dog has a specific make-up, that isn't natural to canines.
> 
> ...


Ah, well now you're getting into the interesting and much-tangled realm of current society, of which there are many causes and factors for what you've described. I definitely don't want to derail the thread with that kind of discussion, but I will say it's a travesty that most folks appear to lack basic resilience these days.

Anyway, yes. Dogs are animals. We should all love that they're animals and want nothing more than the chase down a squirrel and rip its still-beating heart out...then bring it to you to share its glorious, delicious, blood soaked splendor while you praise them for their efforts. At least, that's what a thrown ball must "look" like to them. :grin2:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Kyrielle said:


> Ah, well now you're getting into the interesting and much-tangled realm of current society, of which there are many causes and factors for what you've described. I definitely don't want to derail the thread with that kind of discussion, but I will say it's a travesty that most folks appear to lack basic resilience these days.
> 
> Anyway, yes. Dogs are animals. We should all love that they're animals and want nothing more than the chase down a squirrel and rip its still-beating heart out...then bring it to you to share its glorious, delicious, blood soaked splendor while you praise them for their efforts. At least, that's what a thrown ball must "look" like to them. :grin2:


A dog is a dog, a cat is a cat. A cat is not quite as domesticated as a dog. When a cat brings you a _present_ and drops it between your legs when you are in bed sleeping, the proper response is to praise the kitty and tell her what an awesome hunter she is. (not ban her from the bedroom, little brother, Mark). 

Some dog breeds are also mighty at the hunt, and love nothing more than to chase rabbits and squirrels, or birds, or even bigger game. GSDs are bred away from their hunting/killing ancestors and bred toward the herding qualities, which I believe wolves would do as a pack when going after big game. So animals who tended toward herding, with less killing instinct were selected by shepherds. Animals who attacked sheep were put down. 

But a dog is a dog. They are just as quick to roll on a dead thing as they are to come to you for hugs and kisses. Maybe moreso.


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