# HELP!



## rdrws (1 mo ago)

Hi everyone, I'm new to the forum, and my boyfriend and I recently decided to get a puppy. 
I hope your all ready, cause this is a long one...
We had been talking about a dog for a while now, and we agreed on a GSD. We both grew up around big dogs, and have the time and active lifestyle to support a dog of this breed. We've had no luck finding any puppies in our area, but we eventually found a women selling puppies. We obviously didn't want to get scammed as we found the woman online, but one of the first things she asked was if we wanted to see the puppies. So we went to visit them. We were able to see her home, the puppies, the parents, and interact with her and her two young kids. She was also able to explain to us the temperaments of the puppies and we stayed for about a half hour. She said that her two unfixed dogs "accidentally" had a liter (claimed she separated them while the female was in heat, and came home and found both dogs together), that both parents are AKC (did not show us actually paperwork, but did offer to go find it amongst her other important documents), and that they were 5 weeks old. Keep in mind this was only two days ago. She said the puppies will go to the vet this Friday as they will be 6 weeks old, and she would keep us updated on how they do. The woman and her kids were extremely kind, and my boyfriend and I absolutely fell in love with one of the girls, and on the ride home we decided to go for it, and we informed the woman that we wanted the puppy, and thus put down a $50 deposit. 
This is where it gets interesting. Looking back on the whole situation, I have started to notice the red flags. Firstly, we found the woman on craigslist. Then, over the course of our conversation, she said that there had been one litter before this one, and that all the puppies were healthy and doing great, she asked us no questions about ourselves, our lifestyle, our home, or anything else in regard to where the puppy would be going. She also said that the puppies would be good to go after the vet on Friday, and that she knows some people have a problem with giving the puppies up when they are that young, but they got both their dogs at that age and have had no problems. (My boyfriend and I had to travel out of state for the holiday and the woman said she could hold the puppy for us until we got back which would be around the 9 week mark). 
Now my boyfriend and I are unsure of what to do. After doing more research, I have found that these are some of the telltale signs of a backyard breeder. But at the same time the puppies all seemed healthy, happy, playful, and clean. We fell in love with the one little girl, and we would both be heartbroken to not have her. Part of me feels as if all dogs deserve love, so whats stopping us from giving that love to the puppy we chose, and the other part of me doesn't want to have to face the detrimental health concerns and temperament issues that can possibly show up when you get a dog from this sort of situation.
I would love any sort of feedback or advice...
Thank you.


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## rdrws (1 mo ago)

These are pictures of the puppy and the parents for those interested. Thank you.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

You have a choice to make: lose your deposit, it is not that much anyway and move to a breeder that better fits what you expect, or go ahead with the purchase. There are pros and cons to both. Here is how I see it:

Yeah, first accidental breeding and craigslist ad may be just as she said, whoops. But two whoopses, yeah that's hard to swallow. Which, may make you less likely to trust her. Much of the reason we go to the breeders we do is for help along the way, advice about the puppies. But there is more. We want to encourage responsible breeding. And discouraged irresponsible breeding. On the other hand, if you pick up a pup from a rescue or shelter, how much breeder-help can you get from there. Rescues may be able to give you some pointers, but they probably won't have information on specific issues with the lines themselves. That's a toss-up. If you want to pay $500-$1000 more for a puppy for that expertise, that may make sense. 

On the other hand, you interacted with both the sire and the dam and they seemed stable and they and the puppies were around a couple of small children. Back in the day, this is how people got puppies. Families had litters of puppies and sold them. Spay/neuter was not the way of the world, but neither were puppy mills with 6-800 bitches of every breed imaginable. It took some time for folks with purebred dogs to jump on the bandwagon of altering them. Is this puppy likely to be able to be a police k9? Probably not. Can it be an awesome pet that can go through classes, and trials and earn titles, play with your kids, and grandkids, and be an all around nice pet? Probably. 

The puppies are here. They exist. They will find a home with someone. 25% of the dogs in shelters are purebreds and most of them are there because no one bothered to train them and they have behavioral issues. The vast majority of purebred puppies find that initial home. So, if you don't want to encourage this breeder to continue breeding, you should probably lose your deposit. If you believe that she will find homes for them anyway, and it won't make a difference for you to take the pup, then take the pup. 

Yes six weeks is too young, but if your pup is with the dam to 9 weeks because of your vacation timing, that won't make a difference. Chances are some pups will go home at 6 weeks, probably not all of them. Even it if is just with its dam in the last week or so, many pups are singletons and only have a dam, other pups lose the other pups in the litter. Is it perfect? No. Is the breeder shaving costs and work by giving up the puppies at 6 weeks, yep. What does it hurt? Well, pups that don't have enough time in the litter MAY have trouble relating to other dogs and with bite inhibition. I don't think your pup will have this problem if it is kept with the dam and what is left of the puppies. 

The big things are temperament and health. We hope to get good health and temperament with a pup from a responsible breeder, who knows their lines, does not breed dogs with genetic issues, and may test for various common health problems in the breed It's no guaranty that your puppy will be healthy. It just stacks the deck in your favor. Puppies are a crap shoot. Not all problems are genetic. If down the line your pup does develop hip dysplasia or Cardiac Issues or DM, and you are going to blame yourself for buying a pup there, then maybe you shouldn't. On the other hand if you realize that you can get those from good breeders too and are willing accept maybe a slightly higher risk, then it may make sense to go ahead. Lots of people get dogs from oops litters, shelters, rescues, unknown backgrounds and don't have genetic issues with the dogs. 

I don't think anyone can make the choice for you. It just a choice. Some folks will probably say, run. At the end of the day, the only thing a respected breeder can guaranty is that, barring accident, your pup will succumb to some type of condition or illness that will cause its demise. It's just a symptom of being alive. They do not all make it to 12 to 14, just because they come from a great breeder. For that matter, Kinsmet's Sight for Sore Eyes, (Dallas) who is behind a LOT of dogs in American Showlines, only made it to 9. He was a great dog, great show dog, titled in herding, probably had every test under the sun. My 9 year old bitch has great grandpuppies. You can't wait until you know the longevity of the dog to breed it.


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## Bknmaizey (Sep 16, 2019)

I got my first GSD from a byb (didn’t know any better) that I found from online classifieds (Kijiji) back in the day. Wouldn’t do it again that way but she wound up being amazing dog. Loved people, great with kids, played well with other dogs (mostly). Wouldn’t have traded her for any other dog. Not saying you should move ahead, but it’s not an assured mistake. 

consider asking the breeder for references from other owners of their prior litters and maybe even visiting some of them. It’s a lot to ask but in light of the red flags, that could help you see how other pups they produced have turned out and ask other owners about their experience with the breeder.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

My heart dog came from a BYB. The breeder's dogs were purebred, but he never bothered with papers. He was an amazing dog, and lived to be 14 years old.

The dog I had before him was also likely a BYB dog - will never know for sure, as someone dumped her in the street, probably because she wasn't good with kids. She, too, was a great dog and lived a long, healthy life.

My very first GSD was almost show quality, according to some people who used to show German shepherds. She came from a situation where she had almost been allowed to starve to death. I think the breeder let her go to a pet home as she was 2 inches oversize for a female. She suffered from pannus (an eye problem that's inherited) and ankylosing spondylitis in her spine, which eventually robbed her of the ability to walk. She was euthanized at the age of 9. 

So, being well bred may increase the likelihood of a healthy dog, but it doesn't guarantee it. Ask questions, ask about previous dogs they've bred, and how long they've had GSDs, and if there were any health problems. If they owned the parents of these dogs, how long did they live? And if you like the answers they give you, I'd take a chance on the puppy.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sunsilver said:


> My heart dog came from a BYB. The breeder's dogs were purebred, but he never bothered with papers. He was an amazing dog, and lived to be 14 years old.
> 
> The dog I had before him was also likely a BYB dog - will never know for sure, as someone dumped her in the street, probably because she wasn't good with kids. She, too, was a great dog and lived a long, healthy life.
> 
> ...


Something to add to this. The biggest red flag in this breed is a breeder claiming a lack of issues. Yep. Someone once told me that she was told if she breeds long enough she will see it all. If a breeder tells you that they have never dealt with pannus in any of their dogs, that's probably true. If a breeder tells you that Hip Dysplasia is an American Showline Issue, run. The breed has a LOT of serious health problems and it is simply impossible to have lines of dogs with none of them. So when asking if there were any health problems, you are really measuring their honesty and transparency. Sure, if the only litter they had was 2 years ago, they may not have had any health issues show up yet. If they have one dog and one bitch who are fairly young, they may not have any health issues. But if they do tell you that there was a heart murmur in one pup that cleared up, a few umbilical hernias, and one of the owners reported pano, is that going to make you run the other way? The breeder may think it will. My feeling is that if folks run away, then they probably weren't right for the puppy. But people are trying to sell you something and they may choose not disclose everything they are aware of. It's a problem. Frankly, I think this sort of question just breeds distrust, because there is no way to verify the truthfullness of the answer. No fact-checkers. 

Also, think about what you ask the breeder with regards to other puppy owners, in what you are willing to do. Do you want the breeder to give your name to complete strangers so they can call you at work, and ask you about your puppy and dealings with the breeder. A pet owner who has a litter of puppies might be happy to work with you and give people's information hap-hazardly. But if you work with a breeder who has been around the block a few times, they may be happy to show you the door by this point, believing that you will be nothing but a world of issues. Or, they may tell you that they need to ask their puppy buyer if they are willing to receive that call. Of course they may have made some friends of their puppy buyers over the years, know who to send you to, and the information is about as good as one might expect from a BFF. Again, it comes down to do you trust the breeder or not? 

Funny story: I had to give a personal reference for a job application and asked one of the puppy buyers that I had more than the usual contact with -- I had been to his house and seen his dogs on a number of occasions, and we talked over the phone a lot and talked about politics and unrelated stuff, and I considered him a friend. He let me know that the company contacted him, and he told them all about work we had done together and what a great person I was. I did get the job, but I made a not to self to be careful who I ask to be a reference, because I never asked that guy to lie. I felt really icky about that. If folks will do that, then they will tell others that call about a puppy all kinds of crap too. I suppose that it may tell you something of the person's people skills. 

People skills are actually a lot more important in this business than you may think. 

You might ask them if you can talk to their vet. I don't know how much information that a veterinarian's office feels comfortable giving you. If the breeder calls and tells them they can talk to them, that might be ok. Otherwise, they may be able to say something to the effect that you take care of your dogs, maybe you can discern a favorable or unfavorable impression of them. If they refuse to say where they vet their dogs, that would be a red flag to me. 

Red flags are a bit of an itchy-spot with me. I prefer to give folks yellow flags. If you add up the yellow flags and there are just too many of them, then pass. Very few red flags. Known dishonesty might be a red flag for me. But even that, I would have to be drop-dead certain the person flat out lied to me. Otherwise it is a yellow flag. A red flag means, stop, lose your deposit, go no further. Yellow flags mean, look at the whole picture. No flags mean that you are maybe a little too desperate for a puppy, to get the search over, etc. I think folks try to do all the right things that they turn down a lot of people on minor problems, and then get fed up and buy the next puppy they find.


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## Buckelke (Sep 4, 2019)

I would recommend you get the dog you want. There are very few guarantees in life. We get ours from local shelters and each is what each is. They all have different personalities. Some are great purebreds that someone else didn't want, others are mixes. You are getting a dog, not a status symbol. He or she will be your best friend and companion. No one will care about what paperwork you have. Go for a healthy pup, depend on your vet for help and be a happy family. If you are spending a lot for the dog, you'll want a dna test for genetic diseases and an evaluation of its hips. And get the name of the vet the breeder used, so you can continue with the shot regimen it's already started on.


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## Hellish (Jul 29, 2017)

I am not getting purebred vibes off the photos


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## rdrws (1 mo ago)

Hellish said:


> I am not getting purebred vibes off the photos


If you had to guess what would you say that they are mixed with? And thank you all for your advice, it really means a lot to us.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Hellish said:


> I am not getting purebred vibes off the photos


What I am seeing is purebred but not well bred. Mind you, if the photos were bigger, it would be easier to tell.


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## Rosebud99 (9 mo ago)

If you both already fell in love with her, bring her home. It's a luck of the draw. I have a friend who paid thousands for dogs from reputable breeders and had temperament problems in one and health issues in another. It's a c**pshoot.


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## alwaysGSD (6 mo ago)

Assuming you're not getting the puppy as a show dog and you don't over pay, it's probably O.K. Since you met them, interacted with everyone and fell in love, I probably wouldn't worry. My last GSD lived a healthy 15 years. We purchased her from what appeared to be a BYB. Nice people, clean environment, good looking puppies. But the breeding area was actually in the back yard of a small suburban home! We too fell in love and didn't ask ourselves the important questions till we were on our way home with our new companion. Not very smart, but I guess we got lucky. Her temperament was wonderful and she grew into a beautiful long coat GSD. Never had any health issues till the end.


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## gsdsteve (Apr 24, 2010)

My opinion is you should forfeit your deposit and do your research and get a well bred pup from an established reputable breeder who is familiar with what their dogs produce and can pick out a pup that will be suitable for you. All pups are a crap shoot but at least a reputable breeder who does all health testing and hip and elbow ratings will give you a better chance of having a stable and healthy pup.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

rdrws said:


> She said that her two unfixed dogs "accidentally" had a liter (claimed she separated them while the female was in heat, and came home and found both dogs together), that both parents are AKC (did not show us actually paperwork, but did offer to go find it amongst her other important documents), and that they were 5 weeks old. Keep in mind this was only two days ago. She said the puppies will go to the vet this Friday as they will be 6 weeks old, and she would keep us updated on how they do.
> 
> This is where it gets interesting. Looking back on the whole situation, I have started to notice the red flags. Firstly, we found the woman on craigslist. Then, over the course of our conversation, she said that there had been one litter before this one, and that all the puppies were healthy and doing great, she asked us no questions about ourselves, our lifestyle, our home, or anything else in regard to where the puppy would be going. She also said that the puppies would be good to go after the vet on Friday, and that she knows some people have a problem with giving the puppies up when they are that young, but they got both their dogs at that age and have had no problems.


Second "oops" litter? Sends puppies home at 6 weeks old? Not interested in any details about the homes they're sending puppies to? Classic BYB. Got their own breeding pair (let's be honest) at 6 weeks old, so probably they're BYB dogs too. How old is the previous litter, and are they actually in touch with all the owners? "Healthy and doing great" is pretty vague and absolutely meaningless. Have the parents of the litter or any pups from the previous litter had any health testing, such as hip and elbow ratings, or DM? Hasn't shown you the pedigrees of the parents, do you even know how old they are?

A $50 deposit is nothing. Personally I'd walk away and keep looking, but that's just me. Way too many red flags.


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## michaelr (Aug 5, 2010)

Bknmaizey said:


> I got my first GSD from a byb (didn’t know any better) that I found from online classifieds (Kijiji) back in the day. Wouldn’t do it again that way but she wound up being amazing dog. Loved people, great with kids, played well with other dogs (mostly). Wouldn’t have traded her for any other dog. Not saying you should move ahead, but it’s not an assured mistake.


Ditto. Our very first GSD back in the 1980s was from a byb and an absolutely wonderful dog. She did have hip displasia though and didn't make it past 11 years of age. So, if the pup you have picked out is outgoing, friendly, curious, etc., I would think that genetically-based personality issues are probably not a concern. That leaves potential health issues (displasia, DM, and such) that you'll be rolling the dice on. Going ahead is certainly not destined to be a disaster, but going ahead will probably involve a greater degree of risk than going with a reputable breeder (whose pups will likely cost you a lot more).


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## rdrws (1 mo ago)

I just wanted to hop on here and thank you all for your advice and input. My boyfriend and I really did fall in love with the puppy and we have come to a decision, which is why I'm writing this...
My boyfriend actually took the civil service test a couple months back to become a police officer, and we found out yesterday that due to his high score on the test, he was offered a job at the number one department on his list. We were truly struggling with making a decision on getting the puppy, so I don't know if the timing of this all is just a strange coincidence or a sign of some sort that we should hold off. So we decided to hold off on getting the puppy. My boyfriend decided to take the job opportunity as well, meaning he will have to go to the academy for a while, which means that he would have had much time on his hands to help me out with the puppy, had we decided to go through with purchasing her.
I would also like to say that we were unaware that he was going to find out about this job opportunity so quickly, (We were informed and under the impression that he would get certified next October), and if we had known about this opportunity earlier, we would have held off on getting a puppy until both of us could have had equal time to be together and with the puppy. And that is ultimately why we have decided on waiting, both of us were completely ready to give this dog the time, attention, and care that it would have needed to be an amazing member of our family, no matter what happened with my boyfriend and his job. But, this puppy would have been our first dog, and it was important to us that we both bonded with her and socialized/trained her together, and now that he will be quite busy the next upcoming months, we have decided that in the end it would not fair to ourselves, or the puppy. And as much as this puppy would have brought so much joy to our lives, and we would have loved to give this dog the world, what comes first is exactly that. The puppy. 
So, over the next few months my boyfriend is going to focus on completing the academy and getting settled in with his new job, and I am going to continue to focus on my ongoing higher education. And then one day when we decide again to start looking into getting a dog, we are going to look into reputable breeders in our area, and go with one of those pups.
It makes me so happy that so many of you found my post and took the time to share both good and bad experiences and or opinions, and ultimately my boyfriend and I are much more educated about backyard breeders and the risks associated with those puppies. But, we are also more aware of the incredibly amazing dogs that some of these BYB puppies have become for all of you, and we hope that one day we can have just simply an amazing GSD as well. In the end, we made the best decision for us, and most importantly for the puppy, (sidenote: we wrote a very heartfelt explanation to the "breeder" as to why we would not be going through with getting the puppy, and she did not respond and literally blocked us both almost immediately. I understand that this was probably extremely unexpected and all for her, but still... ouch)
Thank you again everyone for all your help! It truly meant a lot to us... and we will be sure to continue to use this community for any other questions that we have in the future in regard to GSD's, as you all have been beyond helpful and insigtful.
Thank you again...
-R.D, N.S


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Wow! That's some exciting news. Wishing you two the best


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## Bramble (Oct 23, 2011)

Good call!

Her response to your change in plans is pretty typical for a BYB. She thought she had you in the bag and now her money is vanished. It is pretty common for their personalities to do a 180 if you start asking too many questions or back out. They go from being just the sweetest kindest people on earth to quite nasty when a sale falls through. They don't actually care about you or the puppies just making money so when their profit is threatened their true colors come out. 

You will find the right breeder and puppy when the time is right.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Yup, she has shown her true colours now!


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## Rosebud99 (9 mo ago)

Congratulations to your boyfriend and good luck to you both for your future endeavors.


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## mnm (Jan 9, 2006)

Agreeing with everyone else. Things worked out in the long run. Good luck to you both.


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