# gsd vs other dogs for serious street patrol work?



## pets4life

for patrol, crowd control, military 

like the hard work i only see gsd's or mals 

recently usually mals


When it is gsds they seem to be mostly czech lines or czech west ddr/german mixes has anyone noticed that trend for the police dogs now? 

I have not seen any of the working line german rotties or european dobies working as real police dogs, i saw a dobie as a sentry dog but he did not seem to really be that good at it like the shepherds were.

Any idea why other breeds are almost never used now for this stuff? In personal protection training I keep noticing more and more mals and german sheps (more mals) seem like the only serious protectors the other breeds will bite but they get too defensive, not as much courage, not a dog id trust with my life. Also noticed gsd and malas bite with all parts of their mouths specially the back molars. They seem like they would do the most damage.

The mastiff type dogs seem to just do frontal bites and never counter much? Again its just personal experience. I love shepherds but a shepherd was not my first choice from the start I had other breeds in mind but they just did not fit the work I had planned out.


----------



## Sabis mom

Can I ask what work you planned for? Just curious, I have some thoughts but don't want to offend anyone.


----------



## car2ner

I suspect breeders go where the money is. With the reductions of family farms, there are many more people wanting pet type temperaments than working dog temperaments. Also, with the popularity of a particular breed comes more BYBs who may bring in an influx of less stable and healthy dogs. 

This is a topic that comes up from time to time in our club as folks have watched dogs change over the years.


----------



## martemchik

You can tell the line of the dog just by looking at it?


----------



## pets4life

no I ask usually others that are training police or cops in k9


sabis at that time around 6 years or so ago i was looking for a strong dog for serious personal protection work but the breeds I was interested in trying I researched and looked at but they could not do it went to a few clubs and talked to and met with some experienced in training k9 or pp and talked to a few people in psa, I did a lot of looking i had shepherds in the past and really wanted to try something new for this didn't work out tho I really did not want a mal. Shepherd worked out with flying colors though. My next dog will be shepherd again I think.


----------



## onyx'girl

around here, most of the police K9s are from KNPV lines. They can buy green or trained dogs from the Netherlands cheaper than from breeders in the US.


----------



## Sabis mom

pets4life said:


> no I ask usually others that are training police or cops in k9
> 
> 
> sabis at that time around 6 years or so ago i was looking for a strong dog for serious personal protection work but the breeds I was interested in trying I researched and looked at but they could not do it went to a few clubs and talked to and met with some experienced in training k9 or pp and talked to a few people in psa, I did a lot of looking i had shepherds in the past and really wanted to try something new for this didn't work out tho I really did not want a mal. Shepherd worked out with flying colors though. My next dog will be shepherd again I think.


 Having worked with several patrol/protection dogs over the course of 15+ years, my only choice would be a GSD. 
For their forgiveness of training hiccups, for their ability to discern a real threat, for their varied capabilities, for their hardiness and patience and for the willingness to work at a seconds notice, with or without food, sleep, shelter or equipment. It is that cool head in the face of chaos, that unfailing devotion even when it would be smarter to cut and run, the sense of humor that makes them grin when they scare people, that pig-headed tenacity that will get their handler out safe every time. 
They are the masters of intelligent disobedience when they know they're right and your wrong, and they teach themselves continually. Like learning to turn around and watch my back while I unlocked doors, or shouldering me instead of making noise to alert to human presence. 
Maybe not the fastest, the strongest or the most agile but all around they don't make any better.


----------



## RZZNSTR

Sabis mom said:


> Having worked with several patrol/protection dogs over the course of 15+ years, my only choice would be a GSD.
> For their forgiveness of training hiccups, for their ability to discern a real threat, for their varied capabilities, for their hardiness and patience and for the willingness to work at a seconds notice, with or without food, sleep, shelter or equipment. It is that cool head in the face of chaos, that unfailing devotion even when it would be smarter to cut and run, the sense of humor that makes them grin when they scare people, that pig-headed tenacity that will get their handler out safe every time.
> They are the masters of intelligent disobedience when they know they're right and your wrong, and they teach themselves continually. Like learning to turn around and watch my back while I unlocked doors, or shouldering me instead of making noise to alert to human presence.
> Maybe not the fastest, the strongest or the most agile but all around they don't make any better.


 
Spot on! :thumbup:


----------



## Hineni7

That could be in a breed description book!! I think anyone who has really worked their dog (No offense to the pets out there that have done remarkable things, either) under pressure and seen just how intelligent, devoted, intuitive, and brave they are can hardly question why they are so popular. There are faster, stronger breeds out there, but I will happily take the GSD that is 2nd in all things over just being excellent in one... Imho


----------



## Stonevintage

Perfect description. The "forgiveness" part is so right, they wait for us to rise and understand to achieve that perfect level of communication. Their long history proves many times over these qualities.

Many breeds will respond to training "mechanically". There is only one IMHO the GSD that goes the extra mile, not only concerned about the "situation" but seems to read their handler/owner in the aftermath and gets close to provide comfort and understanding and encouragement. They understand the partnership.


----------



## mycobraracr

In my neck of the woods, it's mostly mals with some GSD's and dutchies mixed in. Some of this is due to the "health" issues that the GSD has, the overall size of the GSD and probably mostly to do with who has the contracts for supplying the dogs. Like any government thing the contract usually goes to the lowest bidder not always the "best". 

As for lines of the GSD's I've seen, most are Czech, WG, or a cross between the two.


----------



## pets4life

other than mals and dutchies i have never seen anyone put the presure of being kicked or whipped like done to gsd's the good ones respond by biting and fighting even harder.

I like dobies and giant sch but they are never put under real pressure the way they put on gsd's or mals that i have seen. Some of the b est ones i seen do bite but still I dont see them go all out fight drive crushing grips and not caring about what happens to them. The dobie was my fave dog as a child. A lot of dogs do and wil bite but just do not stay in the fight long which is why not much presssure is put on them it seems. But gsd's and maybe even more mals turn into something else. Yeah mycrobrarcr so far when i do get to ask the lines seem to be mixed or just pure czech. I have seen some mal gsd crosses though which kinda shocked me.


----------



## ladylaw203

We use a lot of Mals and Dutchies for dual purpose dogs because it is easier to find the over the top retrieve/hunt drive we need for scent detection training. they are also agile. There are a LOT of West German high line GSDs here working as police k9s along with the working lines. I have handled a few myself. The sad truth is thatGSDs generally do not have the long working life that mals and dutchies do.


----------



## pets4life

Hey just curious what does gsd high lines stand for?


----------



## onyx'girl

pets4life said:


> Hey just curious what does gsd high lines stand for?


showlines


----------



## David Winners

Most working dogs come from brokers and large kennels that test, procure and train dogs. They spend their money wisely by purchasing dogs from proven lines and kennels, mostly in Europe. It wouldn't make sense to decrease their odds of success by trying to find the oddball schnauzer or rottie when there are GSDs, mals and dutchies coming from proven sources available.


----------



## RZZNSTR

Back in the 80s there were agencies in California that were using Rotties the occasional Dobie and I've even seen a Bovier des Flandres. Then came the Mals. In my opinion these were simply "trend" dogs (save the Mals) and they didn't have the all around tools it takes to do patrol work .
The Malinois are the only dogs that seem to be holding their own. Mals are great dogs in my opinion but there is something about the presence of a stout GSD on the scene that gets peoples attention. Is it the deep rolling bark or is it just the reputation they bring. I do not discount any dog what so ever but there is a right tool for each job and "over all" I think the GSD is the best tool for the patrol job. 
I know I'll get some push-back on this and as I said Mals are great dogs doing some great patrol work. I'm just of the old school and think that GSDs continually prove that they can do it all when required.


----------



## newlie

I read somewhere that there might be other breeds who were faster, stronger, etc. but in versatility, the GSD was unmatched.


----------



## Ace GSD

Question , so we are talking about getting a serious working line dog then get them through IPO training right ? Cause i don't think the police department would sell you their K9 or train yours for money .


----------



## Chip18

I thought it was a general question myself? Europeans seem to use a greater variety of breeds. 

Giant Schnauzers and Euro (of course) Boxers are two that come to mind but you can't argue with the numbers GSD/Mals and Dutchie's have the numbers on there side.


----------



## RZZNSTR

newlie said:


> I read somewhere that there might be other breeds who were faster, stronger, etc. but in versatility, the GSD was unmatched.


Spot on! :thumbup:


----------



## mycobraracr

Ace GSD said:


> Question , so we are talking about getting a serious working line dog then get them through IPO training right ? Cause i don't think the police department would sell you their K9 or train yours for money .



No this has nothing to do with IPO or any sport for that matter. There are those on here that raise and sell or purchase dogs for real patrol work. Also there are lots of private security companies that require dogs for patrol work, nosework and so on.


----------



## Slamdunc

Unfortunately, it's getting harder and harder to find good GSD's for Patrol and Dual Purpose work. Malinois, Dutch Shepherds and Mali X GSD crosses are becoming the dogs of choice for many PD's. When I test potential Police K-9's I am strictly looking for high drive, working ability, strength and serious aggression. Over the past few years I have found less suitable GSD's when compared to the Malinois, Dutch Shepherd and crosses. I have found those other breeds to be just as versatile. 

I'm a GSD guy and have an outstanding 12 week old GSD puppy right now. I also work a GSD that is my dual purpose Patrol / Narcotics dog that I raised from a pup, trained and donated to my PD. An awesome dog, with an awesome pedigree. I don't think I will ever find another GSD as good as him. He's 9 years old now and when he retires I'm seriously considering switching to a Malinois x GSD cross for my next Patrol dog. My sport dogs and pets will always be GSD's, but work is something different.


----------



## brembo

Sabis mom said:


> the sense of humor that makes them grin when they scare people,


LOL. Cable does that. When he manages to back someone off the property before I have a chance to call him off he is truly proud, and prances to me. He gets a good side thump and an "atta boy!" for his troubles. What a great way to describe it.


----------



## BeachLvr

Where I live K9 units have been around a long time and one of the biggest importers and trainers has been bringing in Malinois German Shepherd Dog mixes. He flies to Europe evaluates them and then has them shipped.


----------



## Lykoz

Slamdunc said:


> My sport dogs and pets will always be GSD's, but work is something different.


Please explain why. 
You prefer Belgians for everything else work related.

Why GSD for pets and sports?


----------



## David Winners

IMO, I don't want to live with a Mal. 

When you are getting the dog out of the kennel, going to work, and putting the dog up at the end of the day, a Mal is a great dog to have. They do work differently than a GSD, particularly 6 months or a year into the partnership when the GSD really settles in. 

I'd much rather live with the GSD, that is much more instinctual and intuitive than a slave to their drive.


----------



## mycobraracr

Lykoz said:


> Please explain why.
> You prefer Belgians for everything else work related.
> 
> Why GSD for pets and sports?



I know you didn't ask me, but from what I've seen in my area, is Mals/dutchies being preferred because of agility and having enough drive to carry them through situations. I won't say nerve strength, because I don't always think that's the case. I believe working life/span was something brought up earlier in this thread as well.


----------



## Slamdunc

Lykoz said:


> Please explain why.
> You prefer Belgians for everything else work related.
> 
> Why GSD for pets and sports?


I like high drive dogs, both prey and defense. For me, a potential K-9 must have serious aggression and be rather "civil." We also work dual purpose dogs and I highly value prey and hunt drive as well. I want a dog that is solid in any environment and will take serious pressure and come back harder. I want a dog that will play fetch all day. I do not want nor need Lassie for a Patrol dog. 

The GSD x Malinois mixes seem to have the best of both worlds, clear headed but driven. High prey but very civil. Will go anywhere and do anything they are asked to do. There is a reason our Tier 1 Military SF teams have moved away from GSD's. 

Some folks will say the like the "thinking ability" of a GSD, an intelligent dog that thinks for itself. I disagree, for what I do work wise, I do not want the dog thinking, I want it going when I say go. All dogs think, I just don't like dogs that think too much about the task at hand. They just need to do it. We do train our dogs to operate independently, but that is different. 

After you ave worked some strong, high drive good Malinois for a while you will appreciate what they have to offer. 

If I was guaranteed another GSD like my current dog, I'd take it. But, I don't see it happening. The dog I would choose for myself may be very different than the dog I would select for a new handler.


----------



## Lykoz

Slamdunc said:


> The dog I would choose for myself may be very different than the dog I would select for a new handler.


Are we talking pet/sport here?
Which is the better dog for a newer handler? (Talking along different breeds)...
Why are Belgian Mal's dominating IPO sport WC at the top level?

Is it inaccurate to translate this higher performance in competition to new handlers for sport?
Is the GSD a better dog for say an IPO first timer to achieve some success and keep a balanced and nice family dog pet?
Is the belgian 'easier' to train for a beginner in such a sport?
Sorry I have a lot of questions about the suitability for Mal's and GSD's and the differences.
Is a Mix the way to go?

Thank you to everyone for answering these questions.


----------



## ladylaw203

The mals and dutchies are popular as dual purpose for several reasons, high drive, generally good health, longer working life, agility and retrieve/hunt drive for scent detection work. it is much easier to find the retrieve drive in these breeds than in the GSDs. just the way it is. One of my bomb dogs was a female dutchie. lived to be 13 and I retired her at 11 still going strong.I also had a male Dutchie,dual purpose, that lived to be 15. at 12 he was still doing limited narcotic searches. we just dont see that long a working life in a GSD


----------



## David Winners

Lykoz, I think the best dog for a new handler has to do with their experience level in dogs in general. Someone who is dog savvy, and has done some obedience and trick training is better equipped to handle a puppy, be it a GSD or Mal. A green handler often does better with an older dog. They aren't typically going to reach a lot of podiums with their first dog anyways. After your first dog, and training around other dogs, you will have a better idea of what you want in a dog.

I think the typical GSD is easier because they are lower energy, more forgiving, less reactive when young, and everything moves slower with a typical GSD. You have to stay ahead of the dog, mentally and physically, and that can be more difficult with a mal without having that training experience under your belt.

Super quick, super drive, super reactive makes for a challenging animal to handle if you are still trying to figure out the mechanics and timing of effective training.


Ladylaw, I know a male dutchie that went off a roof in Iraq that has rods and pins in his front legs. He's 10 or 11 now, and will still work all day if you let him. They are amazing animals. 

He's also a total butt head, with 2 screws loose, but he's a dutchie


----------



## ladylaw203

Ladylaw, I know a male dutchie that went off a roof in Iraq that has rods and pins in his front legs. He's 10 or 11 now, and will still work all day if you let him. They are amazing animals. 

He's also a total butt head, with 2 screws loose, but he's a dutchie 





Yep I have a Rudie Pegge son here that is still bonkers in his old age. LOLOL


----------



## Lykoz

thank you for the replies.


----------



## jlthorpe

ladylaw203 said:


> We use a lot of Mals and Dutchies for dual purpose dogs because it is easier to find the over the top retrieve/hunt drive we need for scent detection training. they are also agile. There are a LOT of West German high line GSDs here working as police k9s along with the working lines. I have handled a few myself. The sad truth is thatGSDs generally do not have the long working life that mals and dutchies do.


I usually agree with you but you and I both know that the GSD lines are very important when choosing a K9 partner. I have a Czech GSD now with nice flat hips, she weighs about 65 lbs and hits like a truck. She's probably the smartest dog I've ever worked with and she is very forgiving when it comes to my handler mistakes. It's like she knows when I screw up and does her thing anyway and when I'm not screwing up, she's dead on even better. Hard to explain but I know you get what I'm saying. 

Having said all of that, I do like watching the Mals work. They are great dogs. I just prefer GSD.

On Edit: I forgot to add that I did some speed tests with bella just for fun like I do with some of the other dogs I've worked. My last Shep Jonah was top speed at 29.4. Bella's top speed so far was 34.7. That's pretty darn fast. I'm sure she's not he fastest but she sure does look like a rocket at full sprint. Watching the 60FPS slow motion videos of her is amazing.


----------



## DutchKarin

I can speak a bit to the best dog for a new handler. I'll first say that I do think there are loads of differences in lines and individuals but I can say that my dutchie, as a puppy and juvenile, was not for the faint hearted. He was a pig-headed little *&^$#%%!! But 2 months shy of 2 years and we have hit our stride. I would never recommend the dutchie or mal for a new handler. You have to be prepared to really change your life around if so. I have a GSD rescue and had a GSD years ago and they were/are both more forgiving and easy going. All that being said, despite my not knowing what I was getting into, I love my dutchie Tygo. He has an awesome work ethic and since we are a new first time SAR team, I couldn't be happier. 

Thanks everyone, found the discussion interesting.


----------



## Chip18

Hmmm question I thought a MAL x GSD "was" a Dutchie??? What did I miss???


----------



## David Winners

Um... Not even close


----------



## Chip18

David Winners said:


> Um... Not even close


Well that was not entirely informative...but it was enough! 



NADSR - About Dutch Shepherds


----------



## DutchKarin

There are two groupings of dutch shepherds, FCI and KNPV lines. The FCI are very close cousins to the malinois and have malinois way back in their lines but are now said to be pure, meaning only brindle to brindle FCI papered dogs are bred for a papered puppy. KNPV lines are said to be mixed dutchie or mixed mal genetically depending on their color but they are regularly interbred and a mal cross x dutchie cross can produce brindle or fawn puppies. The fawn puppies are malinois (but technically a cross) and the brindle puppies are dutch shepherds (but also technically a cross) The KNPV lines tend to be bigger and are said to be bred for working capability only and not conformation per se. While there may be some GSD in there somewhere in the KN.PV lines it is not much. For the most part, but not always, the working LE and military dogs come from KNPV lines. Also most, but not all, breeders in the US are breeding KNPV lines.


----------



## Susan_GSD_mom

jlthorpe said:


> On Edit: I forgot to add that I did some speed tests with bella just for fun like I do with some of the other dogs I've worked. My last Shep Jonah was top speed at 29.4. Bella's top speed so far was 34.7. That's pretty darn fast. I'm sure she's not he fastest but she sure does look like a rocket at full sprint. Watching the 60FPS slow motion videos of her is amazing.


I have a little Czech boy (a rescue, might top out at 60 lbs.) whose life is pretty easy, but his favorite occupation is chasing rabbits. We have a very large yard, with chain link, and the adult rabbits have to find and hit one particular spot in order to get out. If they miss it they have to run the circle again and try again. Long runs. My boy will catch one some day in a dead run. I have often wished I could clock him, he's amazing.

Susan


----------



## Tobi

Hmm this same over-beaten topic. I agree that GSDs are generally calmer and maybe easier to handle but for police work which I assume involves Tracking suspects, fighting suspects under environmental pressure, detection work etc. I find it hard to believe that the best of the best GSDs are not capable of this. Granted, the majority of people breeding GSDs want a watered down working dog of sorts but I think exaggerations often come into play when the state of the GSD is being discussed. NATO forces still use them, The German police uses them despite the fake articles being circulated and even if a malinois lives to 15 years, how many people will take a 13 year old dog and expect it to have a fair fight with a grown adult.
Everyone has their preferences and the speed and agility of the Malinois is definitely a big plus but not all GSDs are over-sized, weak nerved dogs. 
The fact that there are still some decent individuals despite years of poor breeding is testament to how great the breed is. I've seen some Malis bred by novices that were terribly weak dogs despite their great pedigrees. The GSD has been suffering in the hands of novices like these, yet the breed is still a formidable working dog.


----------



## mycobraracr

Tobi said:


> Hmm this same over-beaten topic. I agree that GSDs are generally calmer and maybe easier to handle but for police work which I assume involves Tracking suspects, fighting suspects under environmental pressure, detection work etc. I find it hard to believe that the best of the best GSDs are not capable of this. Granted, the majority of people breeding GSDs want a watered down working dog of sorts but I think exaggerations often come into play when the state of the GSD is being discussed. NATO forces still use them, The German police uses them despite the fake articles being circulated and even if a malinois lives to 15 years, how many people will take a 13 year old dog and expect it to have a fair fight with a grown adult.
> Everyone has their preferences and the speed and agility of the Malinois is definitely a big plus but not all GSDs are over-sized, weak nerved dogs.
> The fact that there are still some decent individuals despite years of poor breeding is testament to how great the breed is. I've seen some Malis bred by novices that were terribly weak dogs despite their great pedigrees. The GSD has been suffering in the hands of novices like these, yet the breed is still a formidable working dog.



From the people I talk to, it's not that it's impossible to find a GSD capable of the work, it's that a lot of them are worried now because of the health issues the GSD is known for. Then you get a lot of the "working breeders" breeding for a particular venue in sport. It's all about the podium, it makes finding those dogs harder. Unfortunately, I see the same thing happening to the Mals and dutchies. Just look at how many train specifically for KNPV now. It used to be a stepping stone, a test to see if the dogs were capable, not the final product. Make it a sport and it becomes all about points and nothing else.


----------



## RZZNSTR

It's always been a GSD for me. My boy made me look like I knew what I was doing. I like Mals but I do prefer a dog with a little more physical substance! When you're fighting in the street I'd rather have a linebacker type on my side than a wide receiver.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

My bitch ended up with HD on one side. All that work down the drain. 
Between that and all the temperment issues, seriously considering a Mal for the next competition dog. They also tend to last longer too from what I have seen. Tend to have more heart and mature faster..whats not to like?


----------



## onyx'girl

I'd go with a nice Dutch over a Mal....this kennel is always in my radar, though I don't think I'll ever go to the striped side. 
BunkerDogs USA | Top of the line working dogs.


----------



## pets4life

IF my life was in constant danger and I had to work in seriously bad areas I think i wouldd look for the best dutch shepherds or mals also 


Did anyone notice that the mals from beligum seem more serious than the french ones? 


If i could not pick mal or dutch id go with GSD 

Id never trust something like a co (who i get to see every week friend is breeding them) with my life even tho they seem very powerful and huge also civil just so much defense, id like one for sentry or to guard horses


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Just picked up an X mal from the airport for dual purpose work. Very nice dog so far, extreme drives and solid nerves. Looks like a big mal with a GSD coat or some kind of wolf hybrid..lol. I will be testing his protection today.


----------



## Findlay

RZZNSTR said:


> It's always been a GSD for me. My boy made me look like I knew what I was doing. I like Mals but I do prefer a dog with a little more physical substance! When you're fighting in the street I'd rather have a linebacker type on my side than a wide receiver.


Boston PD uses GSDs for street work.


----------



## pets4life

i had a friend who was a policeman 

I got to see (i never go near or think about touching) the mal gsd cross


Such a nice looking dog but had this fierce expression also 


Are you a cop blitzz???


----------

