# Growling when Reprimanded / Scolded



## Fasa2019 (Jan 9, 2020)

Hello, 

I have a 2 year old male GSD. He is a dominant dog and has been since we brought him home as a tiny puppy. However, he has never acted aggressively towards any humans. He does not guard his resources, and is generally a high energy but good dog. We have worked diligently on leash skills, and basic commands and he does very well. He has shown a drive to work and enjoys getting praise and showing off his skills. Recently he has been growling at my husband and I when he is redirected or told "no". He does not just growl he will stop what he is doing to walk to you and stand in front of you and growl at you while starring at you. Although I have raised this dog, and have pretty extensive time spent with GSD's and large dogs, I do not feel comfortable when he is displaying this behavior. When it initially happened I told him "bad dog" and it only intensified the growling. I am not yelling or raising my voice, but am talking in a more stern town, which has always been the tone I have used when he is not acting properly. 

For those that need more context, the following is exactly what took place this morning. 

I was relocating from our camper which is currently in our driveway due to our A/C being out while we wait for a part to arrive. I let my older small dog go out with no leash, and had him on a leash they both marked on trees in the front yard as we approached the house. We went in through the garage door and as soon as we got inside the house Mufasa(GSD) began aggressively "sniffing" my small dogs private area. He does this ALL the time. Any time the small dog goes outside the house or away from Mufasa, when he sees him again he aggressively sticks his head under my small dog and smell his private area. It lasts far too long not just a quick sniff, and the other dog HATES it, so I try to prevent it from happening. I still had Mufasa on the leash because we were right inside the door, so I told him no and to knock it off, he did not listen, so I pulled on the leash to pull him away from the small dog. He bared down so that he wouldn't be moved (He is approx. 112lbs) and very strong, so I pulled harder and sternly said "Mufasa No Bad Dog Leave Him Alone" he began to growl as he lifted his head up and came towards me growling then stood with his snout about a foot from me and growled, his hackles were starting to rise in the back. I stood there and stared at him and he just stared back, but with no growling. I walked out the door to my right to get his father. When we came back in approx. 3 minutes later, he was acting like his typical happy go lucky self. 

As a note - I am not sure if this happened before or after but possibly before he had ever showed this behavior we took him and his brother to overnight boarding. While they were there they gave both dogs a bath and attempted to clip his nails. He was not friendly with them and they had a really hard time with him. The groomer said "He is big and he knows it and he knows it scares us so he uses that to his advantage with barking a growling". He has been getting regular baths and nail trims since he was very very little, but in the last year has gotten increasingly more agitated with nail trimming. I am unsure if because he saw their reaction when he growled he now realizes he gets the response he wants if he growls, or not, but this was around the time the behavior started.

He is not fixed, but I have the appointment to get fixed scheduled. I am open to hearing ALL thoughts and opinions so I can determine the best solution! TIA for your time.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

I wouldn't count on getting him fixed to be the solution.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

What area are you in? You should find an experienced trainer to evaluate your situation. It’s next to impossible to get all the relevant information online and I don’t think it’s as simple as a few tricks.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

The body language you are describing is very worrisome. Staring at another dog/person is usually a prelude to attacking. Get yourself a balanced trainer,one that is NOT all-positive, and is used to working with large, dominant breeds!


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

“I stood there and stared at him and he just stared back, but with no growling.”

What a scary situation! I agree you need help from someone with true expertise with aggression and handler aggression even if you have to travel. 

Also do not enter an open confrontation with your dog which you did with the stare down...it’s a very bad idea. He will win and then he will never forget that, ever.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

GSD07 said:


> “I stood there and stared at him and he just stared back, but with no growling.”
> 
> What a scary situation! I agree you need help from someone with true expertise with aggression and handler aggression even if you have to travel.
> 
> Also do not enter an open confrontation with your dog which you did with the stare down...it’s a very bad idea. He will win and then he will never forget that, ever.


He did win, and he won't forget that, ever, but you have to set yourself up to always win, at least in the eyes of the dog.

OP, You're in over your head with a strong dog. You need a qualified trainer. This isn't a simple thing to explain, handling a dog like this. Ask @Saphire


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

OP, you mentioned his drive for work. What work does he do? I looked at your previous post on the forum when your pup was 12 weeks, and he already had a pretty strong temper even as a baby puppy. Have you addressed those issues in any way? Do you know his genetics? His pedigree can give some insight and also connect you with people who own related dogs and could share their training contacts with you. Do you stay in touch with his breeder?


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Any updates on this dog's behavior? I agree that the OP may be in over her head with this dog and needs a good trainer that will work with a dog lacking boundaries. The dog is now 2, he is a teenager and beginning to realize that he is in charge. 


Fasa2019 said:


> I stood there and stared at him and he just stared back, but with no growling. I walked out the door to my right to get his father. When we came back in approx. 3 minutes later, he was acting like his typical happy go lucky self.


This line kind of sums things up for me. First off, this is not a child. He is very simply a dog and should be treated like a dog. He is not a "fur baby" and needs to be handled like a dog. Unless I missed something, this dog's Sire is not at your house, correct? So, I am assuming by getting his "father" you meant your husband? If that is the case, and I suspect it is you are going to need to dramatically change how you handle and treat this DOG. Trust me, your dog knows you are not dogs. He also knows that your Husband is not his "father" and you are not his "mother." You at best are on the level of litter mates, if you want to use that analogy. You are not his leaders or superior to him in his mind. 

David is correct, you lost that battle and I'm sure many other more subtle battles leading up to this. Your dog needed an immediate correction, one probably one a level of 10X harder than he has ever gotten. He needed to learn right then and there that there is zero tolerance for this type of behavior. It is easy for me to recommend correcting this dog very harshly, quickly and severely. I own and my work requires very hard dogs and very aggressive dogs. I have one Malinois here who has done almost exactly the same thing to me in my garage recently. That dog is also 2 years old and I've had him for 5 months. He instantly learned that growling at me was a very bad idea and not something to repeat. I didn't hit the dog or even yell at the dog, I simply lifted him off the ground by his collar very sternly, very quickly, very decisively and carried him to his kennel and tossed him in. He turned around, bared his teeth ever so slightly and moved towards me. I instantly swung the kennel door open and stepped into his kennel and confronted him. The kennel dog swung open so abruptly the dog was caught off guard. Then I was in front of him. He sat when I told him then went to a down when told. I waited and released him. He was praised for the very correct sit and down / stay. 

The big difference is that I am prepared to get bit and will deal with it. I've been bit a lot over the years, it's not that big of a deal. I'm sure the OP is not willing to get bit or even take the risk of getting bit. That is a big problem when dealing with a dog like this. The dog knows it and will continue until it bites some one to get his bratty way, unless this behavior is corrected. It is easier to deal with a dog like this when the rules are set from the beginning. Dog's, even this dog do not want to be in charge or be the leader. They prefer to have someone else take charge and be the leader. However, if no one steps up and takes charge the dog will have too. That is one of the problems of having a dog like this and treaating it like a child. I love my dogs, I lavish them with praise, but they know their place and exactly what I expect from them. I am a benevolent dictator. 99% of what I do is praise and reward. Everything is black and white, there are no grey areas. I have zero tolerance for inappropriate aggression to humans or dogs. 

I do not think this is a truly rank or dominant dog, or even a really hard or strong dog. I'm sure to the OP he is a very serious dog. This dog just needs to learn his place and have owners that will take charge and handle him like a dog. This is a fixable dog with the right approach and handling. I also agree with others that neutering will not fix this problem.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Slamdunc said:


> Any updates on this dog's behavior? I agree that the OP may be in over her head with this dog and needs a good trainer that will work with a dog lacking boundaries. The dog is now 2, he is a teenager and beginning to realize that he is in charge.
> 
> This line kind of sums things up for me. First off, this is not a child. He is very simply a dog and should be treated like a dog. He is not a "fur baby" and needs to be handled like a dog. Unless I missed something, this dog's Sire is not at your house, correct? So, I am assuming by getting his "father" you meant your husband? If that is the case, and I suspect it is you are going to need to dramatically change how you handle and treat this DOG. Trust me, your dog knows you are not dogs. He also knows that your Husband is not his "father" and you are not his "mother." You at best are on the level of litter mates, if you want to use that analogy. You are not his leaders or superior to him in his mind.
> 
> ...


Nice post.

This is almost impossible for an inexperience handler to do without guidance.

It becomes second nature when you regularly train pushy dogs, and I feel that it takes a certain personality type to do just that. I don't care if I get bit, and I know I'll win. That makes it easy(er).

Until you see someone snatch up a dog, it's kind of beyond understanding.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Thank you for your post Slamdunc. My husband had to harshly correct our dog at a slightly younger age. We just learned that day my mother in law passed away, it hit us so hard, and here our young dog from **** is throwing a tantrum, trying to bite my husband in the yard. My husband just had enough. He grabbed him very harshly, dragged him to his crate and literally threw him in there. Then opened the crate, the dog rushed out and stopped in his tracks, sit, down, good dog, pet on the head. It was just body language and something in his eyes that got to the dog, no fear I think, and at that moment he truly didn't care if he got bitten. He just had no emotional strength to put up with this behavior during one of the very worst days in his life.... Since then our dog thinks the sun rises and sets on my husband.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

GSD07 said:


> Thank you for your post Slamdunc. My husband had to harshly correct our dog at a slightly younger age. We just learned that day my mother in law passed away, it hit us so hard, and here our young dog from **** is throwing a tantrum, trying to bite my husband in the yard. My husband just had enough. He grabbed him very harshly, dragged him to his crate and literally threw him in there. Then opened the crate, the dog rushed out and stopped in his tracks, sit, down, good dog, pet on the head. It was just body language and something in his eyes that got to the dog, no fear I think, and at that moment he truly didn't care if he got bitten. He just had no emotional strength to put up with this behavior during one of the very worst days in his life.... Since then our dog thinks the sun rises and sets on my husband.


 I'm sorry to hear about the loss of your Mother In Law. That had to be a difficult day for you and your husband. When you have that resolve and let the dog know it, well good things happen. Honestly, most dogs do not want to fight. They will challenge an owner that they feel is week or spoils them unnecessarily. You have made a very good example of what I was trying to say. Your Husband handled the dog perfectly, especially when he let him out of the crate and the dog responded to his commands. Dogs live in the moment, once it is over they have moved on. Most dogs do not hold a grudge. When the dog behaves, and the situation is over the dog needs to be praised for the correct behavior. A lot of people miss this point. You guys have clearly got it.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

@Slamdunc Thank you so much! He has been a challenging puppy for us, a lot of work and learning. He definitely does not hold a grudge, very resilient, very fun dog, smart and confident, maybe even too much  I’m not so physically strong to be able to win a confrontation so I want to proactively learn how to identify, resolve and avoid potential conflicts. That’s why I’m here in this thread and on the forum


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

It's good to see you back here Jim!


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## Biscuit (Mar 24, 2020)

Slamdunc said:


> Any updates on this dog's behavior? I agree that the OP may be in over her head with this dog and needs a good trainer that will work with a dog lacking boundaries. The dog is now 2, he is a teenager and beginning to realize that he is in charge.
> 
> This line kind of sums things up for me. First off, this is not a child. He is very simply a dog and should be treated like a dog. He is not a "fur baby" and needs to be handled like a dog. Unless I missed something, this dog's Sire is not at your house, correct? So, I am assuming by getting his "father" you meant your husband? If that is the case, and I suspect it is you are going to need to dramatically change how you handle and treat this DOG. Trust me, your dog knows you are not dogs. He also knows that your Husband is not his "father" and you are not his "mother." You at best are on the level of litter mates, if you want to use that analogy. You are not his leaders or superior to him in his mind.
> 
> ...



This is an amazing post! I don't think I've ever read a more appropriate post on dealing with a situation like this.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

GSD07 said:


> @Slamdunc Thank you so much! He has been a challenging puppy for us, a lot of work and learning. He definitely does not hold a grudge, very resilient, very fun dog, smart and confident, maybe even too much  I’m not so physically strong to be able to win a confrontation so I want to proactively learn how to identify, resolve and avoid potential conflicts. That’s why I’m here in this thread and on the forum


Sounds like you have a fun dog to work with. If you are firm, fair, patient and consistent with your dog you will have few struggles or conflict. I would suggest working on impulse control or "capping." Teaching the dog to control himself and take his direction from you, goes a long way to avoiding issues before they start.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

GSD07 said:


> @Slamdunc Thank you so much! He has been a challenging puppy for us, a lot of work and learning. He definitely does not hold a grudge, very resilient, very fun dog, smart and confident, maybe even too much  I’m not so physically strong to be able to win a confrontation so I want to proactively learn how to identify, resolve and avoid potential conflicts. That’s why I’m here in this thread and on the forum


You don't have to be "physically strong to win a confrontation". My wife is 5'2, my daughter is 5'3 and weighs just slightly more than Rogan. They both know the tone and posture to show our dogs that the mean business. You learn to immediately both mentally and physically step in not out.

I tell dog owners all the time, you can deal with this swiftly, fairly and with authority, leaving no confusion as to what the message is and what acceptable and not acceptable or how can issue nagging corrections and say your dog is stubborn for months/years. Decide which is preferable to you.

Of course, the foundation for this is best set with a younger dog not 2 years old plus.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Yes, I've learned a lot about impulse control since getting Hunter! His thresholds are on the lower end, very independent but his nerves are strong. It's a new combination, coming from a having a dog with high thresholds and natural handler focus. We have good relationship right now and work well training together, but he's maturing, will be turning 2 yo soon so I can't relax 

@WNGD I agree! But sometimes especially before the status quo is established, the size and strength do matter! Weaker people are forced to utilize their brains more often 
I'm few inches shorter then your wife. Here is myself with my previous dog, working line, he's 5 yo here, about 86lb. Flat collar with no other backup. It's not heeling, I think we are just talking... I would like to reach this level with Hunter one day too. I hope the Original Poster comes back!


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

GSD07 said:


> @WNGD I agree! But sometimes especially* before the status quo is established*, the size and strength do matter! Weaker people are forced to utilize their brains more often
> I'm few inches shorter then your wife. Here is myself with my previous dog, working line, he's 5 yo here, about 86lb. Flat collar with no other backup. It's not heeling, I think we are just talking... I would like to reach this level with Hunter one day too. I hope the Original Poster comes back!
> View attachment 579841



Yup, that's why I said it's best (ideal) to set the foundation in a young dog so that size and strength are not only immaterial but unnecessary. 

My own father never laid a hand on me his entire life. He just had to give you the look and lean forward in his chair like he just might get up  .... if the relational foundation is there, you don't even think about challenging it. If your dog decides to test/push the limits, they need to find out why they were right to think the former.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Debbie Zappia is one of the greatest handlers, competitors in the world. She is not a big woman, quite the opposite she is rather petite. She has owned, handled, trained and competed with some very strong GSD's over the years. She has absolute presence and control of her dogs. There is no doubt that she is in charge. She trains dogs from puppies and also adult dogs and competes. Regardless of the age she gets a dog it quickly learns to respect her. Her dogs also operate on a very high level. They are high in drive, have joy in their work and are strong. 

You do not have to be 250lbs and 6' to handle a dog. You have to have a mindset that you are in charge, have patience, be consistent and fair in your treatment of your dogs. Teach the dog how to get it's reward, what to do to earn praise. What is acceptable and what is not. If you have an issue that you are not sure how to handle seek help and advice. Some dogs are difficult to deal with, a good trainer is a very good option. There is no sense in recreating the wheel. A trainer can definitely shorten your learning curve. 

I have a dog here that was 3 1/2 years old when he was imported from Holland. He went to a Tier 1 Military Team, top top handlers and trainers. He bit 6 or 7 handlers his first two months in training with them and they washed him out. These are skilled guys, strong fit and have no fear. The dog did not do well in a multiple handler environment and I was able to get him for my PD for $5,000. He was purchased for $13,000 in Holland. The first year was very,very difficult with that dog. He is a serious dog, that is putting it mildly. He's a big Dutch Shepherd, he's super athletic and an overall beast. I had to rethink everything I did with that dog. It took me two months to get a toy from this dog with out getting bit over it. There were days I didn't even want to take him out of the car to train, but I did. It was very stressful. I am an experienced handler and I've owned and worked some very strong dogs, even some handler aggressive dogs. I have never had a dog like this. He is an extremely hard dog, temperament wise, that normal corrections didn't phase him. He bit me over prong collar corrections in obedience, slight pops. The E collar simply enraged him and he became violent. I found that my corrections to even be acknowledged by this dog were harder than any other dog I've ever worked. What would have shut other dogs down, barely got his attention. It was eye opening. When he did get a good correction his reaction was often violent and up the leash. I knew if I sent him back, he would 100% bite his next handler and be put down. I decided to stick with him and keep him. He's 9 years old now and one of my all time favorite dogs. He is the easiest dog I have in my house of the 4. He is a joy for me to be around. He was an outstanding patrol and narcotics K9. Outstanding tracking dog and I always felt safe working him on the street. I learned a lot from him and changed a lot of how I deal with handler aggressive dogs. One thing I will say is that if you have an issue have a plan to deal with it. Pick your battles and set yourself up to win. You may need to put the dog in a situation that will cause the undesirable behavior, it is provoking there dog. But, before you do that you plan it out and have a clear strategy and outcome for that session. 

While, I do almost everything through motivational training, there is a consequence for disobedience. If a dog is taught a behavior, trained in that behavior and knows the behavior, like sit for example. Not doing the behavior or command in less than 2 seconds is disobedience. An action / correction must immediately follow a command that has been disobeyed. I do not repeat commands, I insure they are complied with. 

My work dogs get 1.5 seconds to perform a command, my pet gets 2 seconds max. That is where the consistency comes in. I never give my dog a command that I can not immediately enforce. I never repeat commands, this is what many people do with their dogs. They say "sit, sit, sit, fluffy sit." Exasperation, then they yell "Fluffy, I mean it you better sit!" On the 6th or 7th sit command the dog thinks maybe your serious, because your tone of voice changed and they sit. Or come or down, what ever. I know many people do this.....There lies one of the problems that I never have with my dogs. Once the dog knows the command, he has to perform it on the first command. When that happens he / she is praised. Life is good.

If you do that with your dog everything is black and white. The dog knows what is expected and how to succeed, how to earn your praise. Dogs do not want to disobey, they do not want to be punished. If your dog has trouble obeying it is more than likely your fault not the dog's. Your training is lacking, do not get mad at the dog, think of a different approach. So much of my training involves thinking of my desired outcome. Then I break each exercise down into it's fundamental components and teach one at time then put it all together. 

With experience you realize this is all really easy to do.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Slamdunc, how did you get this dog to comply willingly?


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Slamdunc said:


> Debbie Zappia is one of the greatest handlers, competitors in the world. She is not a big woman, quite the opposite she is rather petite. She has owned, handled, trained and competed with some very strong GSD's over the years. She has absolute presence and control of her dogs. There is no doubt that she is in charge. She trains dogs from puppies and also adult dogs and competes. Regardless of the age she gets a dog it quickly learns to respect her. Her dogs also operate on a very high level. They are high in drive, have joy in their work and are strong.
> 
> You do not have to be 250lbs and 6' to handle a dog. You have to have a mindset that you are in charge, have patience, be consistent and fair in your treatment of your dogs. Teach the dog how to get it's reward, what to do to earn praise. What is acceptable and what is not. If you have an issue that you are not sure how to handle seek help and advice. Some dogs are difficult to deal with, a good trainer is a very good option. There is no sense in recreating the wheel. A trainer can definitely shorten your learning curve.
> 
> ...


It's like someone is pulling words out of my mind .... I have never had a truly hard dog as in a 9 out of 10 up the leash hard dog. But this is pretty much exactly my mindset and it absolutely works. But the dog has to know what you're asking in the first place, absolutely. If the foundational training is there, you never have to repeat or nag your dog. Expectations are set and they don't want the alternative.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Little training games. Take a small behavior, figure out a way to make it happen and reward it. Take those small behaviors and build them into the way the dog operates.

I had a military dog, up the leash kind of dog, that would get excited at the back of the truck. Loading up before a mission was a problem. She would hup into the truck up the ramp and immediately bite whoever was in the back. A muzzle is a solution, but muzzle punching people isn't acceptable either.

I taught her to spin. Rewarded it. Put it on cue. Proofed it. Then moved it to the back of an empty truck. Hup, spin, down, reward. Lots of reps. It became the way she got into every truck. Up the ramp, spin to face me behind her away from the other occupants, down, reward. Pretty soon the toy reward faded and just social praise and a couple corrections to proof it was enough.

You do this with 50 small behaviors and you end up with a great dog with habits that fit your life.

Valor gets blown off with an HV dryer after we go out on an adventure. I have a terrible back so I want him on an elevated surface to blow him off. At the house, this was my hot tub. I built a routine where he hups, stands, turns around, and gets released. All those started as separate things. Lots of rewards for all those behaviors. A little correction for blowing them off here and there. We have since moved into the camper. There is a stack of lumber behind the camper where I have the dryer set up. Today was the first day I took him out there to blow him off. Without saying anything, I opened the hatch on the camper, pulled out the house and switched the dryer on. He jumped up on the stack of lumber and went through the routine like normal and then hopped down when I shut the dryer off.

It's all about consistency and communication. Don't stop telling your dog that you are happy with them when they do things well.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I agree with Your post 100%. Yes, my training skills are definitely lacking but the basic functional obedience and engagement are pretty good. No luck to find a good trainer, though, found a few not very good ones and I trust myself more than those I found. I'm a soft person, I do not project the same authority as my husband naturally does, but I train, put in time and work, learn from my mistakes and I am very clear and consistent. My previous dogs were my teachers.

I just never had a dog that can be so fast and wants to do everything with that extra spark, that can miss a toy in flight, smash into trashcans, turn around and still be in the game without missing a beat. He requires energy to be put into him, thoughts, skills, and then he gives everything back with extra 10%.

I can't possibly compare to pros like Debbie Zappia or Slamdunc or David, just thinking of it makes me smile  You guys are professionals with years and years of experience, dog training is natural as breathing to you and your work, and even you still have to think how to approach a particular dog to make it work. In that sense we kinda all are in the same boat even though my dog is not at such level as yours.

@Slamdunc and @David Winners Jim and David, appreciate your posts very much, very helpful, a throwback into the old days of the forum when I was copy pasting and saving posts to slowly read later and think it over and then apply to my own situation. This approach worked very well for me in the past. Please stay and post more often!

PS About how fast my dog is, my neighbor told me yesterday that after observing my dog she actually went on the internet to research the speed the GSDs can run. The max sprint is 30 even 40 miles per hour, she told me, I had no idea! I just have this flying monkey on my hands and because of him I started running, want to do canicross with him after his joints are cleared. He will whip me into shape very quickly


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

wolfy dog said:


> Slamdunc, how did you get this dog to comply willingly?


Well, first I had to gain his trust, and get him to like me. He was extremely reactive when I got him. I was putting him in the car one day when I suddenly felt his teeth on my arm. Then I realized I stepped on his rear leg and his immediate reaction was to bite me. Then i did obedience and I always use a prong collar, more in a finesse fashion than hard pops. He forged slightly in heeling and I gave him a gentle pop and he was 8' in the air biting me in the hand at the end of the leash. The dog was insanely agile, fast, strong, very reactive and handled perceived problems with violence. I did work in a muzzle for certain things. I used food rewards to train and shape behaviors. I did a lot of training with hot dogs and string cheese. I can only guess they do not have string cheese in Holland. Once I was able to get used to him taking food out of my hand like a cobra striking a rodent, things got better. He was extremely fast and would bite my fingers or hand to get his reward. I started presenting a closed hand and would not give him a piece of hot dog until he didn't bite me and waited. 

I did a tremendous amount of impulse control and positive training. He had to earn everything he got. I feed him 2- 3 lbs of raw food a day. He didn't get his food until he sat, stared at me and waited for 20 -30 seconds. If he broke the sit / stay I would pull the food away. This was tense to start, no joking. I had to desensitize him to the prong collar, actually @Steve Strom helped with that on a conversation on here. I would have him sit in the basic or heel position, toss his toy in the air and release him for the toy. At the exact instant he jumped for the toy and bit it, I gave a slight pop on his prong collar. I did this exercise for weeks. Just a few minutes each time, then I ended it. Dogs learn by repetition and after a few hundred reps pops on the prong collar were associated with fun and play. That was a huge breakthrough. 

After I had his trust, I had to gain his respect which was harder to do. My training with this dog had a large positive, motivational component. There was also a lot of compulsion used in some areas of training. In bite work, he does not like to out. The biggest issue that I have had with this dog. I tried to do this motivationally as well. I changed his commands and tried everything I could from sleeve substitutions to two decoys working back and forth. That worked a little. I tried the "easy out" with an excellent trainer and a tough decoy. I pre exhausted the dog with 15 minutes of 2 ball game on a big field. It was warm out and the dog was almost gassed out. I back tied the dog and a decoy came out in suit. The dog got a tricep bite and the decoy laid on the ground. 45 minutes later the decoy's radial nerve and gone numb. the dog came off on his own for 10 seconds and I gave him another bite. 15 minutes later he came off again and I made him wait 15 seconds then another bite. We repeated this for another 12 minutes, then 3 minutes. He put a whole in the bite suit and the decoy was bleeding. This is not what most dogs do after being pre exhausted with 100 yard wind sprints from 15 minutes. 

After that I went to a nylon slip collar for corrections in bite work. The prong elevated aggression, E collar corrections also increased rage and made him fight more violently. Fortunately, he only has to cleanly out once a year in certification. Which I could do. On the street, I use an "outing tool" which gets him to easily release easily and quickly, with in a few seconds. The "outing tool" does not add any conflict, does not decrease drive and the dog is ready to fight immediately after being removed form the suspect. 

It was a process and I literally tried everything in my tool box and everything in a few other trainers tool boxes also. This dog pushed me far further than any other dog I have ever worked. The end result was an excellent partner and working dog. He is a loving dog, is pretty social now and a great dog.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Wow! What a commitment and results. I am sure you saved his life. Thanking for the explanation and lesson. BTW: I never saw string cheese in Holland. I lived there for 30 years. There are better choices over there 😉


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Well, it worked wonders with this dog, I fed him string cheese from the moment I picked him up. I fed him the whole ride home and we were buddies after that.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Slamdunc said:


> While, I do almost everything through motivational training, there is a consequence for disobedience. If a dog is taught a behavior, trained in that behavior and knows the behavior, like sit for example. Not doing the behavior or command in less than 2 seconds is disobedience. An action / correction must immediately follow a command that has been disobeyed. I do not repeat commands, I insure they are complied with.


IIRC, that's William Kohler 101.. Current pet people SO need to learn this!

Yes, very curious to know what the key was to working with that difficult dog! (Edit - see you explained that already.)

By 'outing tool' do you mean a break stick?


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

GSD07 said:


> @Slamdunc and @David Winners Jim and David, appreciate your posts very much, very helpful, a throwback into the old days of the forum when I was copy pasting and saving posts to slowly read later and think it over and then apply to my own situation. This approach worked very well for me in the past. Please stay and post more often!


GSD07, I also have a large file of posts from Carmen and Cliff! And I'm definitely saving Jim's post about working with this dog. It MIGHT have saved me from having to euthanize a rescue I had a few years back...  Certainly, I'm not likely to encounter a dog as hard as his (dear Ghod, I hope NOT!) but still, there are some useful tips in what he wrote.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

So I’m not the only one  Yes, Carmen and Cliff, and Chris Wild, Vandal, Lee is still here. Chris advice based on her experience and knowledge gave me courage to trust myself and my dog (on the pic above) and say “no” to local “training authorities” suggestions where I lived at the time. 
Largely thanks to this forum I learned to respect the dog, respect the genetics, observe and think befor reacting. 

That’s the reason I came back here, to study from experienced knowledgable people who are so generous to share. They probably don’t even realize what influence they may have on their readers.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Sunsilver said:


> IIRC, that's William Kohler 101.. Current pet people SO need to learn this!
> 
> Yes, very curious to know what the key was to working with that difficult dog! (Edit - see you explained that already.)
> 
> By 'outing tool' do you mean a break stick?


The outing tool is not a traditional break stick. Here is a link to one:

Sirius Breaker Bar

I somehow lost the one I had like this, or loaned it to someone and didn't get it back. We make them out of screw drivers that we bend and cover with a rubber gas line hose. They work very well and cost about $10.

Just to address the Koehler method and this is a general statement:
The KMODT has some good techniques. My biggest problem with the Koehler method of dog training is that people use it incorrectly. They take the part about compulsion and corrections and think that is the method. To many people think they have learned how to correct dogs, administer compulsion and do it all wrong. It always amazes me how people, even people on forums will talk about correcting dogs, disciplining dogs, putting prong and E collars on dogs, but never mention praise and reward. 

To be clear, there are times when a correction is warranted. When is a correction or compulsion warranted, when your dog has been taught a behavior, been trained in the behavior, and then fails to willingly perform the behavior. Corrections are unfair when the dog does not understand the behavior or has not been taught the behavior. Would you punish a 5 year old for not being able to do algebra? I would not correct a dog for not doing a sit command if I haven't taught the dog how to sit. Dogs learn by repetition and a behavior needs hundreds of reps to learn. If the dog is taught and decide to ignore the command then a correction may be the right course of action. But, it must be administered fairly. It must be at a level that gets the desired reaction form the dog, like extinguishing an undesirable behavior. If a dog is a 6 on a hardness scale of 0-10, the correction must be at a 7 or an 8 to stop the behavior. A correction at a 4 or 5 is just nagging and will further enforce the behavior. Once you correct at the 7 or 8 level and the dog is performing the proper behavior he must be instantly / immediately praised at a 9 or a 10. That is the key to success. That is the secret that most pet owners miss. 

If your dog ran up to you with the winning powerball ticket in his mouth, $100 million dollar lottery ticket and he dropped it at your feet......*How happy would you be? How much would you praise your dog then? This is how much you should praise your dog every time he performs correctly. *

Dogs like people can learn through pleasure or pain, which do you prefer? What do you think your dog prefers?


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Yes, of course, but as you know, current pet training has gone too far the other way. And I haven't experienced it personally, I'm happy to say, but the training of working dogs often is too heavy on the punishment, to the point of being out and out abusive. I've seen dogs in trials that practically had their tails tucked between their legs, they were so afraid of their handlers! Very sad...

Kohler specifically mentions the repeating of commands, and lack of effective corrections: "Now, now, Fluffy, don't do that!"

Jim, $103 for a break stick?? 🤣 Yeah, show me how to make one with the screwdriver, please!


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## NadDog24 (May 14, 2020)

Slamdunc said:


> If your dog ran up to you with the winning powerball ticket in his mouth, $100 million dollar lottery ticket and he dropped it at your feet......*How happy would you be? How much would you praise your dog then? This is how much you should praise your dog every time he performs correctly*


This is great advice! Awesome way to put it!


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Sunsilver said:


> Yes, of course, but as you know, current pet training has gone too far the other way. And I haven't experienced it personally, I'm happy to say, but the training of working dogs often is too heavy on the punishment, to the point of being out and out abusive. I've seen dogs in trials that practically had their tails tucked between their legs, they were so afraid of their handlers! Very sad...
> 
> Kohler specifically mentions the repeating of commands, and lack of effective corrections: "Now, now, Fluffy, don't do that!"
> 
> Jim, $103 for a break stick?? 🤣 Yeah, show me how to make one with the screwdriver, please!


There are still some old school "yank and crank" trainers out there that have not evolved from the cave man days. I can think of an old Czech guy that never learned to properly train dogs. People that teach a dog to sit with a choke chain hoisting the dog up in the air and slamming it to the ground and grabbing its hips and forcing it into a sit. This nonsense is still being done. It is insane. Most sport people want a happy, high in drive dog at least the IPO / IPG people I know. You will not achieve that with heavy compulsion. I know one former Police dog trainer that would use a lot of compulsion. His guys would come to me to fix all the problems he created. The fact about heavy compulsion is that it creates avoidance. For a pet to keep it's head out of the garbage that may work. For what I do, for my what the handlers in my unit do on daily basis, I can't have it. Too much compulsion makes a dog anxious, frantic, hectic and not able to function in a high stress deployment. I've seen handlers with dogs that simply will not engage a suspect. It is a dangerous situation for them. It is a balancing act to have a clear headed, well trained dog that will still act like a savage when sent to apprehend a violent felon. It takes a fair amount of skill to have the control needed while maintaining drive and not diminishing aggression. Trust me, if I thought that heavy compulsion was a better way to go to achieve my objectives I would do it. I have found the exact opposite. If you knew me IRL, you would know that I am rather blunt and outspoken. I am very passionate about dog training, getting the most out of our working dogs and treating them fairly. When I see a trainer doing something I believe is unfair, outdated and antiquated I will speak up. I will address the issue right there. The K9 world is a small knit community and everyone knows everyone. I think most of the handlers and trainers like me and we get along. I always try to be available to assist and help. There are a few over the years that do not like me, and the feeling is usually mutual. I'm ok with that, this is not a popularity contest and I'm not working dogs to win any awards or contests. I try to be as diplomatic as I can, but in real life sometimes people need to know they are screwing dogs up. 

$100 for a break stick? Your in Canada....We got to the hardware store and buy a slotted / common screwdriver. Preferably one with a round shank. We then place it in a vise and heat it up with a torch or a road flare. I have those in my trunk. Once it is hot we bend it to a 45 degree angle half way down the shank. Then we cover it with small diameter black tubing used for gas lines. All of this is readily available at an auto supply store. 

Here is a video that shows using the outing tool made from a screwdriver. This is me and me recently retired dog, Boru.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Here is another video of the same exercise. The area is wrapped in fire hose only form the wrist to the bicep. There is no other protective equipment. Pay attention at the end and you can see my little buddy, turn and try to nail me. He was a little amped up. Good times, I love that dog.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Poor decoy! So, Boru was the one that was so hard to train?

The president of one of the clubs I belonged to was struggling with training his dobe. The dog would just lose interest in training, and sometimes run off the field. He found out he wasn't praising the dog enough, or making the training fun by playing with him at the end of an exercise. He started doing that, and had a much happier, easier to train dog.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Sunsilver said:


> Poor decoy! So, Boru was the one that was so hard to train?
> 
> The president of one of the clubs I belonged to was struggling with training his dobe. The dog would just lose interest in training, and sometimes run off the field. He found out he wasn't praising the dog enough, or making the training fun by playing with him at the end of an exercise. He started doing that, and had a much happier, easier to train dog.


Yes, Boru was a handful to train. He was hard, single minded and loved to fight. That was what made him such an excellent Patrol dog, it was also what made him a challenge to train. 

It's amazing when you find out what motivates the dog. Being exciting to your dog is the first step. Many people are just not that exciting to others, themselves or their dogs. I'm a relatively low key guy, but I am an animated up beat guy when working dogs. I smile, praise and put movement into my upper body when heeling, I bounce on my toes, walk fast and with a pep in my step. I have to be more exciting to my dog than anything else in the world. That includes other dogs, squirrels, people, kids on a soccer field kicking a ball. When you find what is exciting to your dog and use that the relationship changes and the dog's world changes. Good for that guy to figure out what was lacking and fix it.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Pets here are trained with heavy compulsion, much more often than sport or working dogs. I find this situation very sad. A friend of mine adopted a dog and already had a scheduled appointment with a trainer for e collar training. I also experienced it myself when I brought my bouncy 6 months old and was told to put away toys and treats because we would be doing real training. Real training was 100% compulsion, blast from the past… It was painful to see those young pets and puppies dragged on prongs in a circle. I couldn‘t do it, just turned around and left, cut my losses. It’s a very known and regarded local trainer, with achievements, recommended here sometimes.

I took an all positive Impulse control class instead  and spent 2 months playing with my dog and training while playing. @Sunsilver My trainer said that at the end of exercise you cant just ‘pick up your marbles and go home! Make sure your dog knows how awesome he is!‘ I never heard that expression before (I’m not a native speaker) and it was so funny and made me remember 😀


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Slamdunc said:


> People that teach a dog to sit with a choke chain hoisting the dog up in the air and slamming it to the ground and grabbing its hips and forcing it into a sit.


Sit is so easy! It's the first and only command I teach babies and can be done in a few minutes with most pups! It is my default for unwanted behavior erasing. Head goes up, butt goes down. I cringe when I see people pushing down or lifting up. 


Slamdunc said:


> I'm a relatively low key guy, but I am an animated up beat guy when working dogs. I smile, praise and put movement into my upper body when heeling, I bounce on my toes, walk fast and with a pep in my step.


I used to get a kick out of watching big, tough guys try and get exited when praising. It seems a lot of people have a hard time with it. My mentor was former RCMP, very strict and correct. It was awesome to watch him animate when handling the dogs, especially when he was really starting out young, green dogs. Trying to instill in them that this working thing was the best game ever!


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Slamdunc said:


> I smile, praise and put movement into my upper body when heeling, I bounce on my toes, walk fast and with a pep in my step. I have to be more exciting to my dog than anything else in the world.


You just gave me some good tips for teaching the competition-style heel, something I've always struggled with! 😁


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Sunsilver said:


> You just gave me some good tips for teaching the competition-style heel, something I've always struggled with! 😁


That's where it came from.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Slamdunc said:


> Here is another video of the same exercise. The area is wrapped in fire hose only form the wrist to the bicep. There is no other protective equipment. Pay attention at the end and you can see my little buddy, turn and try to nail me. He was a little amped up. Good times, I love that dog.


You about got a redirect there Jim 

This is my kind of patrol dog.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

David, working a dog is the best job in the world as you know. That dog was an excellent patrol dog. He had a lot of success and we had a lot of fun working.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Sunsilver said:


> IIRC, that's William Kohler 101.. Current pet people SO need to learn this!


Your dog has a RIGHT to know that it's actions have consequences. Anything else is a disservice. It's like asking them to play the game without telling them the rules. Even hockey has penalties.
Nagging, inconsequential corrections are abusive. If someone walked along with you punching your arm but never explaining why you would likely develop an issue with it. Maybe even punching them back.


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## Zee1950 (Sep 28, 2020)

Slamdunc said:


> Any updates on this dog's behavior? I agree that the OP may be in over her head with this dog and needs a good trainer that will work with a dog lacking boundaries. The dog is now 2, he is a teenager and beginning to realize that he is in charge.
> 
> This line kind of sums things up for me. First off, this is not a child. He is very simply a dog and should be treated like a dog. He is not a "fur baby" and needs to be handled like a dog. Unless I missed something, this dog's Sire is not at your house, correct? So, I am assuming by getting his "father" you meant your husband? If that is the case, and I suspect it is you are going to need to dramatically change how you handle and treat this DOG. Trust me, your dog knows you are not dogs. He also knows that your Husband is not his "father" and you are not his "mother." You at best are on the level of litter mates, if you want to use that analogy. You are not his leaders or superior to him in his mind.
> 
> ...


Although this was a while ago now, it was an excellent response. We have a Czech GSD imported at 7 months. I worked hard to develop his obedience and ensure that the dog understood who had the leadership role in the home. He has never even talked back to me. However, at around 18 months, he started to stare my wife out (he is 2 years now). Increasingly he growls at her when told to do something..again NEVER with me. It is true that my wife treated him like a "fur baby" from the start, but even though she is trying simple things (eg NILF), I fear that the relationship is getting worse, not better, with the growling becoming more frequent. Unfortunately, she doesn't want to correct him (to the extent that I have done in the past). If he were truly "dominant" then he would show this with me. He never has. I am getting pressure to rehome, and at a loss!


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I am surprised that, being treated as a "fur baby" for that long, that he is only now starting to act up. Your wife needs to get a re-set and a reality check training this dog. If she won't change her attitude towards the dog, the dog will pay the ultimate price when he finally attacks her. He is already warning her. So if things don't improve, rehome the dog for the sake of the dog, your wife's safety and your marriage. Do not leave her alone with the dog. Have you actually communicated together about this issue?


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## Zee1950 (Sep 28, 2020)

Thank you. We have. She has modified her behavior with him, but clearly not to the extent that is required. He is e-collar conditioned/trained and on occasion when he doesn’t listen to her, I have given the correction after she has issued the reprimand. That works, but she doesn’t like correcting him. 
I have avoided correcting him directly myself .. as I would if he went off on a stranger outside..( and have done on occasion to stop that behavior (it worked btw)), but I am worried about creating a negative association with my wife. It would be a correction on biblical proportions incidentally.
I should add that dog is exceptionally obedient TO ME. BH and PDC are all in progress and he looks a rock star. He would never!! even think about protest growling at me, and simply adores me (in a dog way), even though I have, in the past had to sternly correct him. I worked hard on engagement right off the bat, and really didn’t bring in any forceful corrections until he was 10 -12 months.
The latest: I had to cave and he was neutered last Thursday. It won’t make a difference, but I am trying hard to keep the best dog I have ever had.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

@Zee1950 Would you mind to share your dog's pedigree? I am interested to know his lines. I have a mostly Czech lines dog myself, and he is also my husband's dog without a question so I can relate. I had to work hard to develop a bond and trust between my dog and I. All I can say is that your wife has to build the relationship on her own, you cannot do it for her (some may disagree but this is my experience). It will be different than between your dog and you but it will also be very special and very strong as well. She needs to do engagement, walks, play, find an activity two of them would enjoy, obedience, positive reinforcement etc before turning to corrections. NILIF out of the blue may get her bitten.


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## Zee1950 (Sep 28, 2020)

GSD07 said:


> @Zee1950 Would you mind to share your dog's pedigree? I am interested to know his lines. I have a mostly Czech lines dog myself, and he is also my husband's dog without a question so I can relate. I had to work hard to develop a bond and trust between my dog and I. All I can say is that your wife has to build the relationship on her own, you cannot do it for her (some may disagree but this is my experience). It will be different than between your dog and you but it will also be very special and very strong as well. She needs to do engagement, walks, play, find an activity two of them would enjoy, obedience, positive reinforcement etc before turning to corrections. NILIF out of the blue may get her bitten.


Thank you for your reply. Yes, she has no relationship with Ben and expected that she could treat him like a Goldendoodle and all would be good. That worked whilst he was a puppy, but he is a strong teenager now. I took him for PSA training in November, and he is beast. I have to admit I am very worried for him (and for me, as I adore him).


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I would not use an E-collar when dealing with him and your wife. I think it can back fire big time. You cannot beat a dog into submission who doesn't feel submissive to her. I worry that he will only become harder towards her. In his mind your wife doesn't have any right to cause him discomfort. Get a good trainer involved who knows these type of dogs. Fingers crossed. Question: why didn't you intervene when she treated him as a "fur baby" (I hate that term)


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## Zee1950 (Sep 28, 2020)

You are right: he protest growls because there is no relationship. My wife hasn't "earned the right" to correct him. Good question. At the time 7 months-18 months of age, it seemed to be working out. I was the "leader", and that was OK. Things started to change quite suddenly around the 18 month mark though, and Benjamin started to show a lack of respect for her..even as his relationship with me was getting stronger. So, short answer: I thought we had cleared/or were near to clearing "that age". Obviously not. He did go to a trainer (x2), both very experienced in high drive sport/working dogs. Their opinion: great dog with drives that most would die for! Calm, confident, obedient. The problem is not the dog...as ever!


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Zee1950 said:


> Thank you. We have. She has modified her behavior with him, but clearly not to the extent that is required. He is e-collar conditioned/trained and on occasion when he doesn’t listen to her, I have given the correction after she has issued the reprimand. That works, but she doesn’t like correcting him.
> I have avoided correcting him directly myself .. as I would if he went off on a stranger outside..( and have done on occasion to stop that behavior (it worked btw)), but I am worried about creating a negative association with my wife. It would be a correction on biblical proportions incidentally.
> I should add that dog is exceptionally obedient TO ME. BH and PDC are all in progress and he looks a rock star. He would never!! even think about protest growling at me, and simply adores me (in a dog way), even though I have, in the past had to sternly correct him. I worked hard on engagement right off the bat, and really didn’t bring in any forceful corrections until he was 10 -12 months.
> The latest: I had to cave and he was neutered last Thursday. It won’t make a difference, but I am trying hard to keep the best dog I have ever had.


I know of a dog who was trained by a woman for a while. Her husband started working him. One week after the husband started working him, she dropped something in the van while he was there and went to pick it up. He growled at her and stared her down like he was about to bite her. Obviously there could be a lot of factors involved, but he is a strong dog. Me personally, I would step in and make it known that I don’t tolerate his aggression towards her. I would want him to know the reprimand is coming from me, which isn’t always the case with an e collar.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

This is why I always think it's important for husband AND wife to be involved in training/exercise and discipline from a very young age and all have to be on the same page (kids too, to a degree). There should never be an question as to the dog's place on the hierarchy and if it's questioned, needs to be reinforced.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Zee1950 said:


> Here is Benjamin
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It’s a very strong pedigree. Looks like a nice one for someone looking for a working dog.


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## Zee1950 (Sep 28, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> I know of a dog who was trained by a woman for a while. Her husband started working him. One week after the husband started working him, she dropped something in the van while he was there and went to pick it up. He growled at her and stared her down like he was about to bite her. Obviously there could be a lot of factors involved, but he is a strong dog. Me personally, I would step in and make it known that I don’t tolerate his aggression towards her. I would want him to know the reprimand is coming from me, which isn’t always the case with an e collar.


Thank you. I have refrained from that to date, but there was another growling incident just tonight. My wife said "no" (no correction) just the "no", and he simply growled again at her. At this point with the behavior escalating (and one of the leading PSA trainers in the country having worked with him for 4 weeks!), I have to try something new..otherwise, I am losing the dog..and more to the point, I will never know that he is safe and being well looked after appropriate to his working dog heritage.


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## hanshund (Oct 13, 2021)

The following isn't directed towards you Zee, but more of a general statement. it always amazes me when some halfwits try and tell me that dominance in dogs has been debunked. smh


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## Zee1950 (Sep 28, 2020)

Of course, there is "dominance". Of course there are "pack dynamics". These are wolves albeit diluted ones whatever anyone tries to say. Thousands of years of selective breeding has had an impact for sure, but (depending on the breed and environmentals), you can still identify readily with where dogs come from. If one turns to science, the strange thing is that wolves are actually more egalitarian (and less competitive in their own pack eg for food) than dogs have become. It would seem that we did that to them along the way. (I could provide a citation for those studies, but it doesn't matter. What I do know is that I am dealing with a rank/pack/"dominance" issue and with a strong, hard dog and a dog mom that doesn't quite buy into what we have in front of us...it is truly tough).


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

hanshund said:


> The following isn't directed towards you Zee, but more of a general statement. it always amazes me when some halfwits try and tell me that dominance in dogs has been debunked. smh


There’s is a difference between dominance and submission, and alpha theory.


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## Zee1950 (Sep 28, 2020)

So..I am going to try an approach this in 2 ways:

1. Have my wife send do simple stuff: send to place and recall to heel and back to place and heel again (Ben knows all that very well) and have her use food rewards. Give that a few days to sink in.

2. "Set him up": if he growls at her. I will correct verbally and physically. Making it clear that the correction is coming from me.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Ben is such a nice dog! I hope you will be able to make it work. You deserve to have a dog you love and I am sure there is a trainer out there that can help with sorting out the family dynamics. Ben is still so young!

Does your wife take him anywhere on her own? Walks, stores? Can she take an agility/nosework/obedience (she can use different cues for it) class, just the two of them?


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## Zee1950 (Sep 28, 2020)

GSD07 said:


> Ben is such a nice dog! I hope you will be able to make it work. You deserve to have a dog you love and I am sure there is a trainer out there that can help with sorting out the family dynamics. Ben is still so young!
> 
> Does your wife take him anywhere on her own? Walks, stores? Can she take an agility/nosework/obedience (she can use different cues for it) class, just the two of them?


Hi! He is! I love him so much. Everything that you would want in a dog. We have so much fun playing and training and bitework (his thing!). There was a time when he was even younger when he used to (excited) pee whenever my wife pulled up in the car. It is so sad to see this change!

Unfortunately, she got really freaked out, when the growling started. He is a cute but intense dog..and frankly, when he stares, it is scary. So, she has checked out a bit. I have to work on that so that she can engage with him some more. It is so weird that he clearly "likes" her, but has become this way with her at the same time. I worry that I have caused it because he is SO attached to me.

Also: He is at that age where he is full of pee and vinegar, due to that testosterone flowing. He has just been fixed (I didn't want that, but oh well!), but maybe that will have a little bit of a calming effect...maybe a window of opportunity for my wife to resume working with him. I hope so. The thought of losing him is just awful..


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## Barrie (Jul 5, 2021)

Slamdunc said:


> There are still some old school "yank and crank" trainers out there that have not evolved from the cave man days.


I was brought up with the "yank and crank" brigade and the 'new' way of training did not arrive until after I'd retired (early) from working with service dogs.

It wasn't easy for me to change and eradicate everything I'd been taught & shown for many years but the difference with the dogs I've had since adapting is remarkable. The posts / advice here, especially from @Slamdunc is really helpful. 

I am currently having some challenges with my 7 month old GSD and this thread has really helped.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I am going to be blunt but with respect to you. I think you should have rehomed him while he was still intact. But that's after the fact. Neutering will only fix his sex drive. It seems like you choose the dog over your wife's safety. I doubt you can fix this with treats. You are lucky that GSDs in general give a scala of warnings but when they bite, it's bad.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I wouldn't personally expect my wife, child, neighbor, stranger to correct my dog for unwanted behavior. I don't expect them to undertake some training regimen either. I make it clear what is acceptable.

The dog will go through pushy phases where they test boundaries and limits, particularly if they are a rank dog. It's important that you handle the situation in an appropriate way. I definitely wouldn't use an e-collar for this. No way. No how.

I would probably back off on bite work and focus on impulse control and brain work. If titling in PSA is more important than having a family dog, you may need to consider management like a kennels. I would allow the dog to mature and work on relationship / family stuff and then get back into bite work. It's also important that you give the dog a physical and mental outlet regularly. Daily, multiple times if possible, would be best.


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## Zee1950 (Sep 28, 2020)

wolfy dog said:


> I am going to be blunt but with respect to you. I think you should have rehomed him while he was still intact. But that's after the fact. Neutering will only fix his sex drive. It seems like you choose the dog over your wife's safety. I doubt you can fix this with treats. You are lucky that GSDs in general give a scala of warnings but when they bite, it's bad.


Thank you for your honesty. We both want the dog to succeed but my wife is unwilling and unable to work with him as I have done for the last 12 months +. That is fine, and if their relationship is the issue that cannot be resolved (by building a better one), then our responsibility is to find him a suitable home.

Clearly it is a relationship issue with her, as he has never exhibited the same with me. Neither did he do so when we sent him away for 4 weeks to experienced working dog trainers..and they were absolutely experts from “pinnacle” PSA, + MWD and Police K9 handling backgrounds . He is not aggressive with other people or other dogs…quite neutral in fact. I am not making excuses though. This is a problem for sure.. and I truly thank you, and others for taking time to chime in. His neuter incision (and now hematoma) need to heal, and in the meantime, there will be distance between him and my wife.


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## Zee1950 (Sep 28, 2020)

David Winners said:


> I wouldn't personally expect my wife, child, neighbor, stranger to correct my dog for unwanted behavior. I don't expect them to undertake some training regimen either. I make it clear what is acceptable.
> 
> The dog will go through pushy phases where they test boundaries and limits, particularly if they are a rank dog. It's important that you handle the situation in an appropriate way. I definitely wouldn't use an e-collar for this. No way. No how.
> 
> I would probably back off on bite work and focus on impulse control and brain work. If titling in PSA is more important than having a family dog, you may need to consider management like a kennels. I would allow the dog to mature and work on relationship / family stuff and then get back into bite work. It's also important that you give the dog a physical and mental outlet regularly. Daily, multiple times if possible, would be best.


Many thanks. I had decided to back off bite work.. even tug play for a while. The strangest thing is that he craves affection from my wife, but when she asks him to sit (for it), he reacts. Seems “dominant” behavior from all that I have read (a lot). It is difficult to understand what is going on in his head of course. If he was acting the same way with me (and trainers), it would be a whole lot easier to decipher..

I tire him out physically and mentally throughout the day (praying for my slatmill to arrive also!). We now have the added problem of him recovering from neuter..at least for a few days more.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Seeking attention is not always friendly. It can also be that he is challenging her. We would need to see this on video to interpret body language. My dog Deja (8 year old female GSD) challenges Bo (2 year old English Shepherd) sometimes by pushing a toy in his face or neck. Social aggression occurs within the family pack. If a stranger would move into your home for a few days, he probably would try to see where he stands as well. As long as he lives with you and your wife, it's best that she doesn't try to challenge him with commands or corrections and basically she should avoid him so keep the two separate. Tough call to rehome him but wise.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

If the wife pushed for neuter then I think she should get involved in the training process and make everything possible to keep the dog. Ben has to heal first and the hormonal imbalance needs to settle. 

You also need to develop a plan and reach out to a trainer that has experience with behavior modification, not a high level competition sport trainer. Right now Ben feels entitled to attention and treats and everything from your wife. Not particularly unusual. Your wife will have to go back to basics and teach her own “sit”, so to speak.


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## Zee1950 (Sep 28, 2020)

GSD07 said:


> If the wife pushed for neuter then I think she should get involved in the training process and make everything possible to keep the dog. Ben has to heal first and the hormonal imbalance needs to settle.
> 
> You also need to develop a plan and reach out to a trainer that has experience with behavior modification, not a high level competition sport trainer. Right now Ben feels entitled to attention and treats and everything from your wife. Not particularly unusual. Your wife will have to go back to basics and teach her own “sit”, so to speak.


 Agreed re: the quid pro quo for neutering..which I was very much against. Although I have had 5 GSD's (only one anything like as "drivey" as Ben), my wife has never experienced "a Ben dog" close up. At the risk of repeating myself, it was the sudden change towards her that perplexed us. We had just spent a week on vacation with Ben, and you would have thought he was an angel (behaviorally). On the drive home, we first got the "stare" when she opened his crate at a service area. Caught us by surprise and put it down to Ben being a bit stressed out in a busy environment and long road trip. Well, it was the start, right on the 18 month mark.

The 4 weeks he spent with the trainers was to address this issue except that despite having a rotation of handlers and environments, he didn't show any of this type of behavior. Perhaps not surprising as my wife wasn't there. When we picked him up the head trainer worked with my wife and Ben on her handling skills with him. Again no problem. The point: Lately, I have observed that the issue arises more when I am close by. For example, I sat next to my wife on the couch, and Ben clearly didn't like that - we got the stare again! She hugged me on another occasion and Ben jumped up on her (he doesn't normally jump up on anyone); we put him in the back of the van and we were both standing there and Ben jumped out of the van and seem to be intent on chasing my wife away (he didn't get much of chance as I told him to get back in.. which he complied with).

Tough one!

Thank you so much for your comments. These are greatly appreciated🙂


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Until you’ve owned or trained a dog like this, I find it hard to describe it to people. I really struggled in the beginning and had to seek out help aka David Winners.


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## Zee1950 (Sep 28, 2020)

Saphire said:


> Until you’ve owned or trained a dog like this, I find it hard to describe it to people. I really struggled in the beginning and had to seek out help aka David Winners.


Couldn’t agree with you more. I’m probably not of the caliber of many on this forum and I have trained 2 dogs through early IPO/IGP (they were not great candidates), but this Czech guy i have now is a different breed altogether. The intensity is overwhelming. Because I recognize he is different, I reached out to the forum as the behavioral issue is not one that I haven’t encountered in milder forms before, it is just that it is being demonstrated by a dog that is capable of some significant damage because of the intensity that he brings to everything he does!


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Zee1950 said:


> Couldn’t agree with you more. I’m probably not of the caliber of many on this forum and I have trained 2 dogs through early IPO/IGP (they were not great candidates), but this Czech guy i have now is a different breed altogether. The intensity is overwhelming. Because I recognize he is different, I reached out to the forum as the behavioral issue is not one that I haven’t encountered in milder forms before, it is just that it is being demonstrated by a dog that is capable of some significant damage because of the intensity that he brings to everything he does!


The key to handling a dog like this is figuring out what he wants, and then making him think it's his idea to do what you want to get what he wants. Fighting your way to superiority isn't advised. I'm not saying a correction isn't in order. I'm saying that how you live with the dog needs to be looked at and adjusted. There needs to be a balance between "I'm in charge," and "you're the man. Good job buddy."


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Oh Ben, so handsome! I agree with Sapphire too. So many ppl try to give advice but many just have no clue. David Winners knows so much about working dogs and he very generously shares his insight here and tries to help. One of the reasons I read this forum.

The intensity and speed is overwhelming. At least you had a ‘fur baby’ for two years and access to experienced trainers, we didn‘t. The first year was rough until we got ourselves up to speed. I was ending my every day with this sentence ‘Nothing really bad happened, everyone’s alive, it was a good day’ Lol


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## Zee1950 (Sep 28, 2020)

GSD07 said:


> Oh Ben, so handsome! I agree with Sapphire too. So many ppl try to give advice but many just have no clue. David Winners knows so much about working dogs and he very generously shares his insight here and tries to help. One of the reasons I read this forum.
> 
> The intensity and speed is overwhelming. At least you had a ‘fur baby’ for two years and access to experienced trainers, we didn‘t. The first year was rough until we got ourselves up to speed. I was ending my every day with this sentence ‘Nothing really bad happened, everyone’s alive, it was a good day’ Lol


Ha ha.. it’s a trip with a working line GSD isn’t it? 99% of dog owners have no comprehension of how different they are (no disrespect intended). I had some training knowledge from hanging with IGP folk… but there are many run of the mill sport dogs..I had 2. When you get a real hard case it’s a shock to the system. “working dog” takes on a whole new meaning and you wonder if this animal can be a house dog at all!

Well.. today I am a little more optimistic about Ben. We will take all the best advice we can and try and solve this problem we have with him. Fingers crossed…

I wish he wasn’t fixed, but even if it takes the edge off any sexual frustration that may be impacting, then that’s a win and gives us an “in” to help modify his behavior. In Europe, there is a reversible implant that can be used to “test” the effects of castration. Sadly, it is only approved for ferrets in the US!

If we had a demon genetically then 18 months was a longish time to reveal that, so I am somewhat confident we don’t have a “bad” dog on our hands…we need to do things a bit differently!

z


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

David Winners said:


> The key to handling a dog like this is figuring out what he wants, and then making him think it's his idea to do what you want to get what he wants. Fighting your way to superiority isn't advised. I'm not saying a correction isn't in order. I'm saying that how you live with the dog needs to be looked at and adjusted. There needs to be a balance between "I'm in charge," and "you're the man. Good job buddy."


I love this! Truer words have never been spoken when it comes to a strong dog!

It's not about coercion, it's all about cooperation and teamwork!


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Maybe nose work is an idea as a restart for your wife? No other dogs around and it's non-confrontational.


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## Zee1950 (Sep 28, 2020)

That is a very good idea. I have not done much nose work with Ben, and so that would be a new experience they could both share.


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## Zee1950 (Sep 28, 2020)

My pup was neutered just before Christmas. I have to say I am amazed (shocked) at the transformation. Of course, the dimorphic behaviors disappeared : excessive marking outside, licking urine frantically etc.. stopped within 3 days. He is certainly less interested/more neutral with other dogs, although, I restricted his interactions (with other dogs) and strongly discouraged any "excited" reactivity (there is nothing fearful about this dog) - so other dogs were never a problem. More surprisingly to me is his demeanor. Much more affectionate (maybe a bit more clingy), a touch more biddable. Not a peep in terms of protest growling or growling when petted by my wife, and its only been 5 weeks since neuter. Still playful, still ball and toy driven, still crazy for tug, flirt pole..maybe a bit more so than pre-neuter surprisingly. Energy levels high. 

I know there are many that are against neuter (and particularly early neuter). I was one of them, and to a degree still am. I think that a dogs behavior is complex insofar as it is a mixture of genetics, training, socialization, environment..so that it is difficult to know for certain what the outcome of neuter will be given this (mix). This uncertainly caused me many sleepless nights for sure. However, for this particular dog, at the age he was at neuter (23 months), given his known genetics (solid WL/IPO/IGP) and confident personality (and that I busted my ass training him for the last 18 months), the stars aligned. Perhaps, he would have grown out of the issue we had with him - we will never know, but the "edge" has certainly come off him, and in a nice way. Perhaps we were lucky, although I can't help but think I was fighting his raging hormones for the last year and a half.


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