# NEED HELP! My 1.5 year old male GSD bit unannounced guest, broke skin, taken to ER.



## GSDDad88 (Apr 26, 2015)

Hello, new member and I'm *freaking out!* Need advice! or at least words of encouragement....

Jax is 1.5 years old, 85lbs, comes from German working lines, male, intact. 

I will try to keep this as concise as possible. *This is just a bit of background: (Skip to the middle for the actual bite)* Once every few months, my parents have church members over and have a service at my house (about 20-30 people: men, women, children). Whenever we have these gatherings, I make sure I am going to be home (otherwise Jax is crated) and *I keep an eye on him and greet every guest as they come in.* Anytime someone comes near the house, he will do his usual barking and going crazy. I put a prong on him and have him sit next to me as I greet people at the door with leash in hand. He barks, I correct, he stops, I reward (toy or treat). After he has realized they are my guests and not a threat, I can take him off-leash and he will sniff, run, and play fetch or tug with the guests (including small children). BUT: he needs to be properly greeted. Has never bitten anyone until today.

He is the same way with my friends who come over every now and then but not often enough. Goes crazy barking, then once i correct, he stops, I release, he plays. He also barks and goes crazy at dogs walking by. I have been working with a trainer to work on socialization with other dogs and more people. I am a military veteran and am trying to get through all the proper hoops for him to be an emotional support animal so I can take him with me when I transfer to a university this fall. My main reasons for seeking a trainer was because of his lunging at strangers that walk by when I take him to potty and to work on front door manners.

*THE ACTUAL BITE:*
So today, my parents were going to have the church members over but ended up having to cancel it. So my father sent out a group message to all the members. Since no one was going to be coming over, I left the house and went to study at Starbucks.

I then get the phone call from my dad. He sounds pretty panicked and tells me that Jax just bit someone. So I grab my things and rush home. *Basically*, one of the church members, an older lady, never got the message and showed up to my house. My mom was in the garage cleaning and my dad was in the backyard doing some yard work. I guess Jax was in the living room by the front door sleeping (where he usually waits until I come home). The door was unlocked and the lady just opened the door and poked her head in. She told me that Jax, barking madly, immediately charged her and instead of closing the door on him, she panicked, fell backwards and swung the door open even wider. *Jax then got a hold of her forearm and took her to the ground.*

My mom heard the screaming and ran over to find Jax holding the bite. She screamed "JAX!" and he let go and just kept barking until my mom recalled him into the house and he just ran back in but kept barking.

I feel terrible! When i got home, Jax was crated and the poor old lady was on the couch with my mom holding an ice pack to her arm. She had a pretty good sized puncture wound near her elbow and torn clothing. I called my trainer and she said that it is certainly in his nature to attack to protect his home, especially considering there was no one to give him and other instructions. "Imagine if it were an actual intruder. You'd be applauding him for what he did. But of course, this is unfortunate." She will be coming to my house for an in-home evaluation. She said I shouldn't worry too much as long as the lady doesn't dime out Jax as the dog who bit her and that in terms of training, we will work on it.

My dad took her to the ER (everything checked out ok) while my mother and went to go buy her a new jacket. Thankfully, the church member told the hospital staff that a stray dog bit her outside of our house and she isn't pressing any charges.

*My concerns:*
-Is this a big red-flag for aggressive behavior?
-Does this basically ruin his potential to be an emotional support animal? (My trainer said we can work through it, but I'm pretty worried now...) I have really built a strong bond with him and he has been the best thing for my recovery after Afghanistan. He has seriously helped me come back from a pretty dark place. I can't imagine not having him around.
-Will this potentially make him aggressive outside of the house?


Any advice, comments, support would be great! Not really sure where I need go to from here... Thank you!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Your dog did what he was suppose to do. The poor lady must have been super scared, but it was her fault. No one should ever just walk into anyone's house. Thankfully she seems to know this and luckily doesnt seem to want any trouble for you. Not to mention that your whole family jumped in and helped her, which was very decent...good people

You seem to know your dog and take precautions to keep everyone safe and that is not something a lot of people do. I'm not sure what is expected for an emotional support animal. Would the dog just be living with you or going to classes with you? How is he with groups of people outside of the home? Let the trainer guide you and continue to help you. 

The biggest thing is that while you know what your dog is capable of, you can not show fear or tense up when dealing with him, that will go right down the leash. Keep control and keep moving forward with your training.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Your dog did what he was suppose to do.


Not in my book. A senior lady, terrified and on the ground BACKING out of the house isn't a 'threat' to my, my home or my dogs. 

That's why, for me, it's not up to MY dogs to decide who's good or bad. Because CLEARLY if I have left that decision up to them there is a good chance they will make a poor choice.

To me, the poster has 'taught' their dog that 100% of the world is a scary threat that needs to be reacted to in a threatening way. Because we poor stupid  humans are frail and unable to see someone walking up the drive. Only AFTER my dog has reacted to 100 % of the HORRIFYING HUMANS... only AFTER does the owner steps in to say 'oh thanks for saving my life now have a treat toy for doing so' does the dog quiet knowing yet another life has been saved. So the dog has learned that the world is a terrifying place with no humans to be trusted, and that their owner is a frail person with no sense of the world and needs to be guarded from it all.

Not my world.

In MY world, I'm the 'strong' one with the brain and ability to determine threat from not. In my world my dogs look to ME and how I'm behaving. Because in MY world my dogs have met hundreds (yes hundreds) of WONDERFUL people. I've behaved like they are wonderful (calm and happy). I've spoken like they are wonderful (look at that wonderful stanger walking my way). And then I've proved they are wonderful because not only did neither my dog or I get injured or murdered  when the 'stranger' came close, that darn stranger just gave my dog some chicken/cheese/beef/treat.

So MY dogs know I'm the leader and look to me. And my dogs don't look at the world as 100% of the people are a threat. My dogs know the world as it really is. Full of seniors that are nice. Children that are nice. Adults that are nice. In fact, I've (brace yourself, seriously, hold onto your hats) I have NEVER been burglared or beat up or almost murderered! I know......... it's hard to believe!!!

That of the THOUSANDS of people I've met in my life I have never been attacked! Ever!

So to allow my dogs to think that ALL of those people ARE threats would be a BIG FAT LIE and raise a paranoid dog that has no real ability to 'read' people behaving normally or not.

What my dogs do is read ME. And when I'm normal, they are normal. And when a situation crops up when I am not acting normal or feeling comfortable, my dogs sense that from ME immediately and then look to figure out what's up. Or they notice something that they think is 'off' and immediately look to ME to see if I agree (pretty much usually I do not). 

I'm being attacked, my dog can bite someone. Senior citizen comes to my house in a 100% non threatening manner and backs away when barked at THEN gets bit, not ok.

For me, I'd completely change how this dog is being 'trained' and socialized. Socialization is about how to give the dogs the sense and peace of mind that the 'real' world is a good place and so are most things you find in it. We TEACH them to watch, listen, learn and FOLLOW us and our guidance. We don't leave it up to them to react, then WE react. Tail wagging the dog there........

There is a reason (specially with a GSD) that most of us go to puppy classes + socialize our young pups, not just cause we want to but we know we HAVE to and 






You able to get any good dog trainer involved to turn this around? Your dog isn't that old. Frankly, just your dog learning you are the 'leader' and you haven't abandoned the role to a dog that CLEARLY can't handle it (none of my dogs could have either....). You'd have to start with private lessons at this point.

Have you gotten a good start on ---> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...191183-top-training-expectations-puppies.html

And you may want to start some of --->http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...ssive-leash-i-cant-control-reactive-dogs.html

Good luck.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

This is a super unfortunate situation....

First off - with an "unknown stray" biting this lady - she has opened herself to having to get a series of rabies preventative shots!!!! Unfair to say the least!!!!!!!!! 

As hard as it is, you need to take responsibility.....no matter what the consequences. If she will not take legal action, then your insurance company does not get involved. you will have to show proof of rabies vaccines for Jax. He may be under house arrest. 

As far as his training greeting visitors.....it sounds like the timing is off - and he is being rewarded in his own mind for the aggressive behavior....there has been shown to be a definitive time lapse needed between behavior and reward for the dog to know what the reward is for....too quick and the dog thinks the negative behavior is being rewarded, thus reinforcing it.

I think that no matter how hard this is, you need to revisit that lady and make sure that there are no negative ramifications to her fibbing to the hospital.

I also think you need to reevaluate the meet and greet training - it really sounds to me that this dog has been conditioned that aggressiveness is the proper way to meet someone at the door.

Sorry this happened and hope it works out.

Lee


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

The dog was sleeping at the door and reacted within seconds. The dog didn't know who it was, just that someone was coming into his home. Not all seniors, kids, or adults are nice or good. In my world seniors are selling drugs and working with kids to rob houses, because really who expects Grandma to be a criminal? Regardless of that, the dog could have killed her, but instead held her and let go when called. 

This is an example of a GSD protecting without training, he was protecting his home. There could have been a lot more damage IMO. 

Yes the dog needs work with greeting people and yes the timing needs to be just right and the OP seems to be the kind of owner that will address that. 

These dogs are bred to be of protective nature, so either we want them this way or we don't, we can't have it both ways. The bottom line is a stranger entered his home and that is a threat no matter what. 

I do hope the woman is ok, but I also believe she knows she was wrong and that more damage could have been done. I also believe the OP is well aware of what the dog is capable of and will work on that.


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## Debanneball (Aug 28, 2014)

I also think that a stranger should not walk into a person's house unannounced. But, on the other hand, I truly hope my boy understands a friendly person from a threatening person. Guess I am on the fence here...


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Debanneball said:


> I also think that a stranger should not walk into a person's house unannounced. But, on the other hand, I truly hope my boy understands a friendly person from a threatening person. Guess I am on the fence here...


I'm actually on the fence too. 
No one should be walking into a house unannounced, especially when they know you have a dog. I don't think dogs discriminate between young and old and middle aged either. 
It's a unfortunate situation, I hope the OP gets thru it okay.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

OP (original poster) please make sure that woman doesn't have to go through the rabies series. 

From here on out, if you aren't home, your dog needs to be in his own room or somewhere where he can't make any choices, because he is not doing a good job on his own. This is not a good choice.

I also think he could be neutered now to go along with the training. training info: Articles: Aggression: Before the Game Begins by Pamela Dennison at Positive Motivation Dog Training! and teaching
Confrontational Techniques Elicit Aggression and http://www.dogdaysnw.com/doc/Protocol_for_Relaxation-_Karen_Overall.pdf 

The Effects of Spaying and Neutering on Canine Behavior | Association of Animal Behavior Professionals


> A 50 - 90% level of improvement can likewise be observed in 10 to 15% of dogs that are aggressive toward unfamiliar people or human territorial intruders after gonadectomy.


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## SkoobyDoo (Oct 7, 2014)

Has this woman been to your house on previous occasions??



> She said I shouldn't worry too much as long as the lady doesn't dime out Jax as the dog who bit her and that in terms of training, we will work on it.


This statement speaks volumes, IMO!

I am more disappointed in how it's being handled, a GSD needs to have more discernment than this! Reminds me of a former member justifying her dog biting a child on the arm! 
A dog doesn't have to bite and "take someone down" to protect it's home! A bark and blocking the door would have done the same job!


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Yep, she'll likely be told eventually by the county's Animal Control that she has to do a series of painful rabies shots that cost many thousands of dollars -- since she's elderly, it's a cost probably to be born by Medicare (= the tax payers) because of the lie. If your dog is up-to-date, she shouldn't have to go through this at all. I think the last time someone posted the post-exposure vaccine series' cost here on the board, it was perhaps as high as $10,000? 

An animal control officer is likely to question her -- in detail -- about this "stray" because they're going to want to find it. They can't let a dangerous stray dog continue preying on people, so the lie will send them on a wild goose chase for a dog that doesn't exist. Her lies may open her up to some serious problems with them. That may open your family up to problems too, if they asked her to do this. 

There's also now a homeowners insurance issue -- next time your parents are asked by their agent whether any dog in the home has ever bitten, if they plan to lie, that lie can end up voiding their policy if it ever gets found out. Same goes for whenever you move out, and need to get your own insurance -- the insurance agent will ask if you have a dog, and if it's ever bitten. Misrepresenting the dog's bite history has the potential of making the policy voidable in many states.

Since your trainer thinks nothing was wrong with this, I think you should ask the trainer, what if it had been a neighbor-toddler wandering over? A lot of dogs come on strong at the door but won't bite -- they stop short of it. Life happens in an urban or suburban neighborhood--neighbor kids wander, disoriented elderly people lose track of where they are.... 

I personally don't have much tolerance of dogs who can't live safely in that environment, but I know I'm probably in the minority here -- my perspective comes from having seen too many of those type of dogs end up getting euthanized for their owners' training choices, as no rescue wants them, shelters can't adopt them out, and eventually owners often get tired of managing them. 

Please nip this behavior in the bud now, for the sake of your dog's future. Your dog's life could very well depend on you getting a handle on this -- a second bite like this one could mean being declared dangerous and being euthanized, in some counties.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Magwart said:


> A lot of dogs come on strong at the door but won't bite -- they stop short of it. Life happens in an urban or suburban neighborhood--neighbor kids wander, disoriented elderly people lose track of where they are....
> 
> I personally don't have much tolerance of dogs who can't live safely in that environment, but I know I'm probably in the minority here -- my perspective comes from having seen too many of those type of dogs end up getting euthanized for their owners' training choices, as no rescue wants them, shelters can't adopt them out, and eventually owners often get tired of managing them.


This exactly. 

I don't believe this dog will ever be a service dog candidate and will most likely always be unsafe if not in very responsible and knowledgable hands. You have a crap ton of serious work ahead of you to give this dog any chance of becoming safe and stable.


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## pyratemom (Jan 10, 2011)

Miss Les, and Deb, I'm right there on the fence with you. No stranger should just walk into a house where they know there is any kind of dog, much less a GSD. On the other hand if she had been there before, didn't get the message that the meeting had been changed she might have thought there were other people in there. Still, she walked in unannounced and the dog reacted. More training is most definitely needed for the dog and owner. I hope they straighten out that she was not bit by an unknown stray so that she doesn't have to take the rabies series. 
Medicare is paid through payroll taxes of everyone who works in the US if they work legally. Everyone contributes according to the amount they make. People who do not pay into Medicare get medicaid so no, it is not other's tax money paying for it. Also a person's social security is billed for the Medicare part B coverage. No freebees on Medicare, just Medicaid.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

I'm curious as to how many here have kids. I have kids, now teenagers coming and going from my house daily. Some Gus knows, some he doesn't. He barks at all of them as they come in and follows them to wherever my kids are. I would not find it acceptable for Gus to bite some scatter brained teen who walks into my house, for simply walking in. Where is the threat ? Now, if someone came in acting aggressively and in a threatening manner I could at least understand the decision my dog may make to bite. If I thought there was ANY chance my dog would bite someone for simply walking in, my door would be locked at all times or the dog would be crated. There is zero room for error with this dog now that there is a bite history.


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## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

I agree she was unannounced that's the natural behavior nothing beats natural. Although he does need some training


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## GSDDad88 (Apr 26, 2015)

Thanks for all the replies! I didn't get a lot of sleep.. 

I've definitely got a lot more questions for my trainer now. She has said she wants to do some scenarios at my home to better evaluate him and see how to start working on the issue. 

In terms of being an emotional support animal (ESA) it is not like a service dog. Instead he will just be a dog that cannot be denied housing under the fair housing act. 

And this isn't just a loophole I'm trying to exploit. I've been to several therapy sessions with a psychiatrist, been on all kinds of medications... But never saw results, so I stopped going. About a year later my primary care provider asked me why I stopped going.. And i told her about how just having Jax around, never being alone and him always being there has helped me with anxiety issues, stopped drinking... Basically turned my life around and that I didn't need the therapy sessions or medications anymore. She recommended I get him registered as an ESA and that she would help with the paperwork. This is why I consulted a trainer. He's a great dog, but if I was going to be taking around with me as an ESA I wanted to make sure he was the perfectly behaved dog. And then this happened. 

The church member is doing well. She didn't mention anything about having to receive shots yet. And she is pretty adamant about not reporting Jax. She feels that she made an error by coming in the door with a barking dog (especially since she knew we have a big dog in the house). After some back and forth apologies, she insisted she doesn't want anything to be difficult for me. (I put her son in contact with some of my buddies to help his enlistment process in the past).

The trainer seemed most worried about there not having been anyone to correct him when the bite occurred. She said it would be a problem if he had fun or excitement from the incident, as this would make the act of biting a reward and reinforcement in itself. After some sessions with the trainer, i'll have to recruit the help of some friends to come over the house and try to work this out (of course. I'd have control of him). They've all seen my recovery after having Jax and will be very supportive. 

I guess I'm just really worried that after all the progress I've made with the trainer... This happened... And now I'm worried he might bite again. In a different scenario..


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Saphire said:


> I'm curious as to how many here have kids. I have kids, now teenagers coming and going from my house daily. Some Gus knows, some he doesn't. He barks at all of them as they come in and follows them to wherever my kids are. I would not find it acceptable for Gus to bite some scatter brained teen who walks into my house, for simply walking in. Where is the threat ? Now, if someone came in acting aggressively and in a threatening manner I could at least understand the decision my dog may make to bite. If I thought there was ANY chance my dog would bite someone for simply walking in, my door would be locked at all times or the dog would be crated. There is zero room for error with this dog now that there is a bite history.


You are right, 
I've got 3 and one on the way, the teenagers always have people in and out but with Ty being such a liability there is never a moment of him being allowed to freely have access to the friends and when the friends are over either one of our kids ensures he is safely away, but I know this about him and I am not sure the OP did know that the dog was going to bite and the OP was not around, so all in all it sounds like a really unfortunate situation, I am not saying the dog did the right thing, I am just saying that I am on the fence about it surely the OP knows now and luckily he does sound like a really good owner who will not take this situation lightly.


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## DTS (Oct 19, 2010)

I'm on the fence. I feel like it depends what kind of living situation you have. 
For me, I have no children and seldom have people over. Seldom being once every 3-4 months. And when I do have people over, everyone is crated. My female will bark the whole time so that's a no go. My male is very friendly and gets excited. With living in a small space that doesn't work so everyone is put up. 
I just started letting Titan out during the day. If someone were to come in, say someone from my apartment complex, and they had the wrong apartment, and ignored the GSD sign I have over the door, and came in, I couldn't tell you what he would do. I know he would charge the door barking. 
heres another scenario I wonder about. If someone broke in, say jimmied the lock because that's the only way in, and calmly came in and started taking things... The person is in a calm state and not a threatening manner.. Technically this person isn't a threat and my dog shouldn't react. How's my dog to know that he's stealing our stuff? 
All my dog sees is someone in our home unannounced without us being there in each scenario. 
The only safe way to insure no one gets bit or hurt while no one is in the home is to always crate when you're gone. 
I know all my one dog would do is bark and runaway. 
My male, I'm not sure. 
If I was home, there would be no issue. He is extremely friendly. But just coming in and opening the door he will charge the door barking. Once he sees who it is or hears our footsteps he's all tail wags. If we allow people in he's all tail wags. 
If a dog is left out, unattended there is always a risk to bite.. Crating the dog will eliminate the risk... 
I'm not crating my dogs in fear that someone "might" accidentally come into the wrong apartment. 
Unfortunately for the OP this lady slipped by. If this happened at my house and we were around but not right there, she would have gotten a barking gsd still would have fallen to the ground most likely hurting herself anyway. 
The only way this would have worked in his favor was to have a dog who loves everyone and doesn't bark or charge when someone he doesn't know comes into the house and he has no one there to tell him it's okay. 
The dog made the decision on his own and it was the wrong one. 
With this dog, and mine, and probably a few others here, 
If your afraid your dog will charge someone barking a possibly bite without your guidance for someone who comes in announced and you aren't there to say it's okay, then the dog needs to be crated and be trained to allow strangers to enter. If the dog can't understand that, then the dog is crated while the home is unattended. 
Especially for someone who has a lot of people traffic in the home.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

What if this old lady had not been an old lady but an intruder with a weapon and Jax had taken him down? He most likely would have been in the paper as an heroic dog who saved his family.
So now you know where he is capable of. Make sure the house is locked so no one can come in unannounced. 
If you have people come over, put him in his crate as soon as you hear the bell. Just do it in a calm and confident, happy way so he learns that it is you who opens the door. Hire a good trainer to help you at home in setting up situations.
Also it sounds from the first paragraph that you could increase your leadership over him. He is an adolescent intact male who relies on his own judgement. Practice the NILIF treatment (many threads on this subject).
In all fairness and I am sorry that this happened, I think you can modify and manage this easily with the right help.


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## pyratemom (Jan 10, 2011)

Saphire said:


> I'm curious as to how many here have kids. I have kids, now teenagers coming and going from my house daily. Some Gus knows, some he doesn't. He barks at all of them as they come in and follows them to wherever my kids are. I would not find it acceptable for Gus to bite some scatter brained teen who walks into my house, for simply walking in. Where is the threat ? Now, if someone came in acting aggressively and in a threatening manner I could at least understand the decision my dog may make to bite. If I thought there was ANY chance my dog would bite someone for simply walking in, my door would be locked at all times or the dog would be crated. There is zero room for error with this dog now that there is a bite history.


My daughter is 26 now and lives at home but she grew up with dogs in the house loose and brought friends over. No one ever got bit. None of my dogs since she was little, including 3 GSD's and a Pit ever bit someone in my house. Raina did bite a man when she was 10 months old when we were with my trainer. She just got up from a sit and grabbed his wrist out of the blue, no warning. He was very good about it and only ask if she had rabies shots. I offered to give him my name, number, vet's name and number, and anything else he wanted but he said no it was fine and left. My trainer chewed me out real good but I actually had no warning and hadn't prepared a command to tell her to let go. My trainer was video taping the session and got it all on tape so I saw it afterwards. It all happened so fast I couldn't believe it. On the tape I could see that the guy was close to me and swinging his arm but that is no excuse for her to grab him. I was lucky she didn't do any damage. She never got another chance because after that I was always ready. A couple weeks after that she tried to bite a police officer friend of mine the same way by grabbing his wrist. She never made contact with him though because I was fast enough to see it coming and stop it. Those two times were the only times, maybe it was a phase, I don't know but I never gave her another chance to bite anyone. The OP here has to be on guard now and really train seriously, besides crating when no one is home.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I'm not sure about anyone else but I don't have dogs, especially GSDs to have them crated in case someone comes in when I'm not home. It kind of defeats the purpose?

I have a son and smaller kids in and out of the house, never a bite or even any barking. 

Now if I was in the yard and the kids were let's say asleep and a stranger "accidentally" walked in the house, Midnite wouldn't allow it. Not because of me, but because of the kids. Before it got to that point, there would be a lot of barking. God Bless whoever thinks they can walk into my home.


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

*The OP's Concerns:
My concerns:*
-Is this a big red-flag for aggressive behavior?
-Does this basically ruin his potential to be an emotional support animal? (My trainer said we can work through it, but I'm pretty worried now...) I have really built a strong bond with him and he has been the best thing for my recovery after Afghanistan. He has seriously helped me come back from a pretty dark place. I can't imagine not having him around.
-Will this potentially make him aggressive outside of the house?

First let me say, Thank you for your service to our country.

I am not really qualified to answer to your concerns, but I've always owned dogs so I'll give it a shot, 
1. A red flag? I'd say it probably is a red flag, especially because it resulted in an injury. You know your dog better that anyone, so you would be the best judge of that.
2. Does it ruin your dog's chances...? Your trainer seems optimistic, but I think it's always best to get a second opinion in situations like yours. A good person to consult might be someone who evaluates dogs for the possibility of becoming therapy dogs.
3. Aggression outside the house? It sounds like your dog has to be closely supervised, you keep a prong collar and leash on him to greet people as they enter your house. 
Is that because he jumps on people to greet them in a friendly way? Or, is he leashed because you can't trust him to be friendly?

This is what I think would be GREAT for you and your dog:
Start at the beginning. A new start for the two of you.
Enroll your dog in a Basic Obedience (BO) class with a good trainer. Even if you've already been through BO, Sign up anyway. 
That will put you and your dog in a controlled setting with other people and other dogs. Obedience class is fun! And it's productive. Even at it's lowest level, training builds confidence.
When your finished with basic obedience, sign on to Intermediate training, then work toward off leash training. It will take some time but you will get the best out of your dog thru training and practicing what you've learned in training. 

You both deserve the best.

And as far as the bite...you've been thru enough crap in your young life, let your parents deal with the woman and her injury.
I do agree though, that if she needs to go through a painful series of shots then it's best to own up to it. 
If your dog's been vaccinated for rabies, she might need a tetanus shot.
Good luck and take care.


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## SkoobyDoo (Oct 7, 2014)

Read this and read it again. Keep reading it until you understand your dog has taken over and believes you need to be guarded. 
This is not a good dog for an ESD unless you want a lawsuit and your dog taken and possibly destroyed!



> To me, the poster has 'taught' their dog that 100% of the world is a scary threat that needs to be reacted to in a threatening way. Because we poor stupid humans are frail and unable to see someone walking up the drive. Only AFTER my dog has reacted to 100 % of the HORRIFYING HUMANS... only AFTER does the owner steps in to say 'oh thanks for saving my life now have a treat toy for doing so' does the dog quiet knowing yet another life has been saved. So the dog has learned that the world is a terrifying place with no humans to be trusted, and that their owner is a frail person with no sense of the world and needs to be guarded from it all.


As for unannounced, keep in mind this woman thought she was invited and expected!
I think too many are glossing this over! Every Sunday people come over, so it's not exactly unexpected for people to show up!
I believe the dog has sensed it's owners fragility and has taken over. This is not a recipe for success, because your dog is making poor and dangerous decisions!

Not just this situation but you desperately need to get the dog under control and not just using a leash and prong because you have unwittingly taught the dog that aggression at the door is okay! In a sense he was doing "his job" and now he may have to pay for the bad decisions he made and will continue to make.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Very possible the dog would not if reacted the same way with the owner there, instead he may have looked to him for guidance, he acted on his own in a uncontrolled environment with no guidance from a fellow family member. 
The OP says he treats his dog when the dog redirects his focus from a incoming house guest to the OP, my trainer told me the exact same thing when Shiggs was barking at dogs that pass by, everytime she would lose her mind, I interrupted her, treated her (when I had her attention ) and now when dogs walk by she looks for hotdogs so for us that technique was successful.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

WOW...talk about a target rich environment???

The OP was not on site so they get a pass there. But for me a dog that displayed this type of behaviour, is not a dog that I would have allowed "anyone to have control of." 

This dog "is' a loaded gun! And trained to meet and greet by way of a prong collar and corrections?? Who does that??

This dog was "taught" to meet and greet by of his handler. No handler on site?? Dog made an independent decision! I'm taking this little old lady down...hard!! 

If a "trainer" suggested this "guard dog" approach to meet and greet??? He should be "fired" and sent back to his prison guard, K9 handler job?? 

I'd have taken this approach to meet and greet in the home myself:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIGq_5r0DeE

But I'm not a pro.


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## shepherdsnmastiffs (Mar 23, 2015)

DTS said:


> I'm on the fence. I feel like it depends what kind of living situation you have.
> For me, I have no children and seldom have people over. Seldom being once every 3-4 months. And when I do have people over, everyone is crated. My female will bark the whole time so that's a no go. My male is very friendly and gets excited. With living in a small space that doesn't work so everyone is put up.
> I just started letting Titan out during the day. If someone were to come in, say someone from my apartment complex, and they had the wrong apartment, and ignored the GSD sign I have over the door, and came in, I couldn't tell you what he would do. I know he would charge the door barking.
> heres another scenario I wonder about. If someone broke in, say jimmied the lock because that's the only way in, and calmly came in and started taking things... The person is in a calm state and not a threatening manner.. Technically this person isn't a threat and my dog shouldn't react. How's my dog to know that he's stealing our stuff?
> ...


I heard a funny story about English Mastiffs and how they react to thieves.

Anyone who has been around them knows they are much more laid back than most guarding type of dogs. 

Anyway the story goes - the thief broke into the house and was greeted happily by the English Mastiff who loves people. As you can imagine the thief was at first scared and then surprised at the friendly nature of this dog. 

And then the thief started to take things and all of a sudden English Mastiff is no longer very friendly. Corners them near the fireplace and then sits on them until the owner returns. Since the fireplace was on, he actually received some somewhat serious burns but not life threatening.

Dogs are fairly intelligent animals, GSDs especially.

To the OP, I do not think this is the kind of behavior anyone wants from their dog and I'm a bit concerned about your trainers response to the incident.

I'd also be very careful about your timing for what you're doing. It seems like you might be rewarding some of the behavior you are trying to correct. 

My dog is a fairly hard dog, but he doesn't attack strangers that come into the fence line. He generally greets them as they are all non threatening. At the same time I have little doubt he would go after someone who was a threat based on my own experiences with him. 

Since he hasn't fully matured yet mentally, I would keep a very close eye on him. I'd also consider a different trainer based on what you've said here. It's entirely possible he will not be a dog that cannot be completely trusted among strangers in any situation and that isn't your ideal for what you're using him for. 

He does sound like he would make a strong police dog candidate based on your story (highly responsive to command but a tendency to go all the way when in fear mode). I think your training methodology has not helped the situation either.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

llombardo said:


> I'm not sure about anyone else but I don't have dogs, especially GSDs to have them crated in case someone comes in when I'm not home. It kind of defeats the purpose?
> 
> I have a son and smaller kids in and out of the house, never a bite or even any barking.
> 
> Now if I was in the yard and the kids were let's say asleep and a stranger "accidentally" walked in the house, Midnite wouldn't allow it. Not because of me, but because of the kids. Before it got to that point, there would be a lot of barking. God Bless whoever thinks they can walk into my home.


I have a teenager, but we do not have a lot of company. Both my current dogs have displayed poor judgement, so when people do come over they are crated or confined until folks have settled, then they may be brought in to visit. I can state with confidence that while neither dog would bite someone invited into the house just for entering, sticking your head in to 'hello the house' may get you bit.
Doors and gates are left locked, signage clearly indicates 'Dogs on premises'.
OP, this is probably not a good candidate for an ES dog, but work with a trainer if that is your desire. Stranger things have happened, he may grow into himself. I would get him neutered though, but not for any reason other then as an ESA his focus should be on you not the ladies.
Own up to the bite. Your dog, your responsibility.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

Saphire said:


> I'm curious as to how many here have kids. I have kids, now teenagers coming and going from my house daily. Some Gus knows, some he doesn't. He barks at all of them as they come in and follows them to wherever my kids are. I would not find it acceptable for Gus to bite some scatter brained teen who walks into my house, for simply walking in. Where is the threat ? Now, if someone came in acting aggressively and in a threatening manner I could at least understand the decision my dog may make to bite. If I thought there was ANY chance my dog would bite someone for simply walking in, my door would be locked at all times or the dog would be crated. There is zero room for error with this dog now that there is a bite history.


I so agree with this. My kids are grown up now, but that screen door was always opening and closing. There could always be an unknown child in the house.


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

My concern with his reaction with no one around is the fact that his reaction to people coming into the house requires correction in order for him to let them come in. Also you mentioned that out on walks, he jumps up at people who are trying to pass by.

My other concern is that given your relationship and things dealing with the horrors you have seen that he feels he needs to keep the world from you. The world is full of people, and I would not be shocked if you have trouble trusting new people. Even just being around people likely could have you on edge. GSD are extremely intelligent, but they are also extremely in tune with their handlers. If you are on edge, he is going to pick up on that. 

Hard as it could be, I think his training when it comes to basic manners (which honestly even if an ESA is not an SD, they should still behave very well and have good manners) and how to handle strangers in the world would be best handled by someone other than you. :/ I hope you don't find that insulting to say, but speaking as someone who has some trouble with anxiety and gets overwhelmed in certain situations, it is much easier for the dog to pick up on your unease without knowing the source and then start to try and figure out what is happening. 

Someone who is calm and confident leading him through the initial training process could set the ground for what the world is actually like, then when the leash is within your hands, he can remember the world is not actually a threat.

For me, I would be very grateful for how the woman is handling this and send her a huge thank you card, but also I would see this as a wake up call. He is far more reactive than he should be. Not only is his reactive, but he has questionable bite inhibition. You may want to look into a different trainer or perhaps an IPO club that has a lot of people used to working with GSD that have higher drives and require a firmer handle. I know that nothing ever makes me more peaceful than when I'm out working with my dogs and it's just us out in a big field with some trusted friends nearby. 

Thank you also for your service. I fully believe that ESAs and PSDs are a huge help to people like yourself and I am a huge supporter of helping make that happen.


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## SkoobyDoo (Oct 7, 2014)

> He does sound like he would make a strong police dog candidate based on your story (highly responsive to command but a tendency to go all the way when in fear mode). I think your training methodology has not helped the situation either.


Your quote tells me how little you understand about police dogs!
Here is a hint: they don't take people down out of fear!


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## shepherdsnmastiffs (Mar 23, 2015)

SkoobyDoo said:


> Your quote tells me how little you understand about police dogs!
> Here is a hint: they don't take people down out of fear!


Obviously they do things because they are told to, but if acting independently I imagine they would prefer a dog who will take down the target. And it seems likely that a dog in the field will sometimes be forced to make these decisions. Maybe I'm wrong. It did not sound like his dog was out of control at any point. Seems like an ideal candidate to me.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

SkoobyDoo said:


> Your quote tells me how little you understand about police dogs!
> Here is a hint: they don't take people down out of fear!



You beat me to this....

The reward system is not timed right...thus the dog has been rewarded for aggression when people enter the house.

This dog appears, from the initial description, to not be totally absolutlely socially stable and the training is exacerbating the edginess....

I would suggest some research into the Jogi Zonk method of clicker training and the timing to help clarify the training process

Lee


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## GSDDad88 (Apr 26, 2015)

Wow, a lot of feedback! Thank you! I met with my trainer today, among other things, we talked in great length about how we should now approach this.

Before she wanted to encourage the barking, then have him go to his place, and reward again. (Her dogs will bark to alert, go to their place, and wait as she greets guests in). Her new plan is to have knocking at the door be a queue for him to go directly to his "place." The training facility works mostly with working dogs (mostly mals and shepherds) but I was placed with my trainer because she had specifically spent many years training and working with ESAs and therapy dogs that go to hospitals to be around patients. I know a lot of you have recommended I find a new trainer, but I feel like I am, for now, committed to this facility. I don't really see them as just a business but friends and family who know more about dog training than I do that is willing to help out (for a fee of course ;D) But they're great people and for now I'd like to try and work through this together with them instead of bailing out at the first sight of trouble. They have been really helpful and supportive so far, and it doesn't seem like that's going to change. You don't just burn down bridges at the first sign of trouble because one unpredictable thing goes wrong. A little consistency and loyalty with training might be good for now. 

And just to note, Jax has been seeing GREAT improvements with his front door manners since i've been training with them. This was just somewhat unchartered territory. I never thought someone would just come into our home like that (knowing there is a dog). Today at training, he was even running the agility course with other dogs and sitting on tiny boxes with a buncha alpha male malinois.

*A couple things I feel I should respond to:
Why do I have him on a leash in the house when people come in:*
-Mainly because he will bark and lunge towards the door. I never thought that he'd actually bite, but i pull him away from the door, have him sit, and people enter. He actually doesn't jump a whole lot anymore when people enter. Its weird: he jumps up but doesn't make contact with anyone. But of course, his barking scares the **** out of people. I began doing the leash, and sit training to try and teach him that that is the behavior I want when guests come over (but my trainer is taking a different approach with this now, after the bite). After he greets and sniffs guests, I have never had an issue with him being aggressive. I usually wait until he's sitting, looking up at me, and I will give him a release command to go meet the guests. The trainer suggested i just have him go to "place" on the queue of the doorbell or knocking.

*"As for unannounced, keep in mind this woman thought she was invited and expected!
I think too many are glossing this over! Every Sunday people come over, so it's not exactly unexpected for people to show up!"*
-It is actually a gathering that occurs for the small group, I believe, once every two months. It just happens to be at our place more often because we have a larger home that can accommodate. Also, the messaging app that my father used, shows who has "read" each message. It showed that everyone had "read" his message that the gathering was canceled. I put "read" in quotations because the lady says she never received the message but while scrolling through her phone said "oh... nvm... there it is."



misslesleedavis1 said:


> Very possible the dog would not if reacted the same way with the owner there, instead he may have looked to him for guidance, he acted on his own in a uncontrolled environment with no guidance from a fellow family member.
> The OP says he treats his dog when the dog redirects his focus from a incoming house guest to the OP, my trainer told me the exact same thing when Shiggs was barking at dogs that pass by, everytime she would lose her mind, I interrupted her, treated her (when I had her attention ) and now when dogs walk by she looks for hotdogs so for us that technique was successful.


-Thank you! This was basically her method with me. And it has worked. Even on walks, as soon as he sees a dog or person, he looks right up at me. We'll walk by with him focused on me the whole time. We are, of course, still in the process of working on this with dogs/people walking by the house. But this is a bit more difficult because I have to catch him as stimuli walks by. But unfortunately, I cannot control when they walk by. 



shepherdsnmastiffs said:


> To the OP, I do not think this is the kind of behavior anyone wants from their dog and I'm a bit concerned about your trainers response to the incident.


-I don't think anyone really wants a dog that is just out to bite anyone. I think a large part of why my trainer was so calm and cool about the whole thing is that they train protection dogs. Of course when the handler is around, the dog should get guidance from their owners, but unfortunately, no family member was around. Many people actually expect that their dogs would protect the home and do what needs to be done in their absence. This, unfortunately to him, was one of those cases. But of course, I acknowledge that Jax's reaction was out of fear and too quick. It seemed more instinctual and not thought out. This has been addressed by my trainer and we are going to setup some scenarios during our in-home session.
-Also, I think my trainer was trying not to FTFO (because that's what I was doing. No need for two people FTFO)



Colie CVT said:


> My concern with his reaction with no one around is the fact that his reaction to people coming into the house requires correction in order for him to let them come in. Also you mentioned that out on walks, he jumps up at people who are trying to pass by.
> 
> My other concern is that given your relationship and things dealing with the horrors you have seen that he feels he needs to keep the world from you. The world is full of people, and I would not be shocked if you have trouble trusting new people. Even just being around people likely could have you on edge. GSD are extremely intelligent, but they are also extremely in tune with their handlers. If you are on edge, he is going to pick up on that.
> 
> ...


-In terms of the lunging at people, I meant when I take him potty to an area just outside my front door. It is basically the same reaction he has when he sees a dog from the window. On walks or away from the house (even from literally 10 feet away from the house), he is very well behaved and super social. Also something I have been working on... but again, unfortunately, I cannot control when people walk by. (I try to recruit as many friends as possible to work through scenarios... but its easier said than done).
-When I first got him as a puppy, I think I definitely made the mistake of being on edge, of course more because I didnt want to really talk with people (not because an 8week old was going to maul someone), but he has definitely made me more sociable and I'd say recovered quite a bit. Still have my moments but those are usually at night and in bed.
-Thank you for the insight and support!

Thank you to everyone that has given their insight (though some, I must say, have been rude, speculative, pompous, and offensive; but that is the nature of forums I suppose). This is not an issue I am going to take lightly. I am extremely grateful to the lady for handling it well. I will work very diligently with my trainer. She actually loves how dedicated to training I am. If i gave up at the first sign of trouble... I wouldn't be alive to write this post!


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## Basia (Oct 7, 2011)

FWIW I think you're being mindful and going about this situation the best way you can. I think you're doing the right thing by not bailing on your trainer the first sign of a problem and working through it together.

It sounds like Jax reacts to people and dogs that are on or too close to his home turf and is neutral elsewhere. This sounds very much like my dog and we too have had similar unfortunate circumstances occur: once when I opened the back door to let her out into our _private fenced yard_ first thing in the morning as I always did, there happened to be a man back there. He was hired by the landlord to paint the front of the house and he was back there looking for an outlet. I wasn't notified he'd be painting and worse yet, he didn't knock on the door and ask permission to go into the back yard. The man was right by the bottom of the steps (and this actually is also attached to my bedroom so you can imagine my surprise to literally roll out of bed and let the dog out to see a man five feet away). Naturally, she lunged and bit him, letting go immediately- thank goodness. On the one hand you can argue she was doing her job but on the other hand this is still not okay.

Anyone can logically argue that I didn't do anything wrong and man was at fault (he too admitted it), and same for goes for your situation. The problem is that this doesn't stop situations like this from happening. I was very clear to my landlord that I need notification if someone will be entering the house for whatever reason so that I could be there due to the dog- both when I first signed the lease and later when I decided to move and he was showing the place to prospective renters. That didn't stop his mother (who also knew my rule) from entering the house without notifying me or even telling me at all until she mentioned it in passing during a conversation. I was livid. Nothing happened because she's a woman and my dog mainly reacts to men. 

What I ended up learning in the long run is that it doesn't matter how clear I make myself (I often find myself completely exaggerating her behavior to get it through into people's skulls) *I can never count on people to make* *the decision that I believe to be right.* I've learned that I need to put myself in an environment where I can have as much control over the surroundings as possible. Ideally this would mean being a home-owner but that's just not possible right now. I ended up ditching the room mates, and moving to a one bedroom with a different landlord. It's a lot more money and took some getting used to, but it has given me tremendous peace of mind and I have seen a HUGE improvement in my dog's disposition to strangers and ability to allow strangers in our home now that I am in complete control. I don't even let my parents babysit my dog now.

I didn't intend to write a book here, but hopefully others can gain insight from my past experiences and mistakes. We all make mistakes, it's how we handle them and learn from them that matters... the process of life  Best of luck and thank you for your service!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am kind of on the fence on this one as well. I slept on this before making a reply because, personally, I believe truly dangerous dogs should be put down. If someone loves a dangerous dog and has the means to make another incident extremely unlikely, then the dog should never be rehomed, and if a second incident of magnitude occurs, the decision for the dog should be taken out of the owner's hands and into the courts. 

That being said, I do not believe every dog that bites a stranger who walks freely into the home the dog feels at home in should be put down. 

Some of us have dogs that strangers can walk in on without being bitten. From little on up, the dog has lived in a house with kids, kid's friends, extended family, and an open door policy. Or the dog has regularly been cared for by dog walkers/care takers on a pretty much daily bases. Maybe the owner owned a farm or small business where customers and strangers are an every day occurence. Maybe the dog was raised with a stable older dog who, being confident about visitors provided to the pup a healthy/acceptable attitude about them. 

This dog has been pretty much trained to tolerate people the owner accepts on that day. Some dogs would not have done what this dog did. Other dogs might have done as much if not more. It is hard to say. 

On one hand the forum says dogs will not protect without being specifically trained to do so, and on the other they suggest dogs should be discerning enough without training to accept and older church lady and chew on a person with some evil intent. I think that is a bit much to ask of an 18 month old puppy who has had a routine where he meets visitors first with his owner, and then can play with them. 

This dog bit. We know that if push comes to shove, this dog will bite. Wherever his natural threshold is for biting, which ALL dogs have, his is near enough to the surface that his owners will have to manage his environment so that the likelihood of this ever happening again is pretty much nil. 

Some of us have an open door policy, where children and family walk right in. Some of us have our doors unlocked, while most people still knock and wait for an answer. This dog should be behind a locked door. There is not the luxury of allowing the kids' friends to just waltz right in. And lots of people are perfectly ok with that scenario in this day and age.

I see no reason the dog cannot be an emotional support dog. It more depends on what that means to the person requiring the support. A dog that will bite a stranger who walks through their door is not necessarily going to eat people that he meets while out and about with his owner, specifically if the dog is wearing some sort of vest. The owner needs to understand the necessity of being aware of the surroundings. 

The dog can't be a therapy dog, as the bite history must be disclosed and TDI will not give a dog with a bite history a therapy dog certificate. I am not sure of the other organization, though if they offer insurance for incidents, my guess is the policy would not accept dogs with bite histories.

My suggestions are:
Keep up with training.
Do not leave your dog in the care of your family.
Lock your doors. 

As for the lady who was bitten. The health department can only recommend. They cannot force a human to undergo treatment. As long as she has seen your dog's UTD rabies certificate, she should be able to tell whoever strongly suggests it, that she does not desire to do it. The dog did not bite because it was rabid, it bit because someone came into a home, through a door where the dog was barking and warning the lady not to come in. We do not force people to undergo rabies shots here. 

When people do not know whether or not an animal might have rabies, they will be foolish not to accept the recommended preventative treatment, but they can still decline. This is a freedom, no one can stick drugs or vaccines into us without permission.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> I am kind of on the fence on this one as well. I slept on this before making a reply because,


Must have been a very good night sleep!

Very well put! Hey how about a houndie!


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

selzer said:


> I am kind of on the fence on this one as well. I slept on this before making a reply because, personally, I believe truly dangerous dogs should be put down. If someone loves a dangerous dog and has the means to make another incident extremely unlikely, then the dog should never be rehomed, and if a second incident of magnitude occurs, the decision for the dog should be taken out of the owner's hands and into the courts.
> 
> That being said, I do not believe every dog that bites a stranger who walks freely into the home the dog feels at home in should be put down.
> 
> ...


I think this post makes the most sense. It shows a well-considered, fair and balanced approach to a difficult situation.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

newlie said:


> I think this post makes the most sense. It shows a well-considered, fair and balanced approach to a difficult situation.


Boards going to get really slow if everybody decides to sleep on it before posting!

Thoughtful reflection is refreshing for a change but let's not overdo it!


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## Cheyanna (Aug 18, 2012)

I would suggest that you get the dog into protection training. Why? Because you know he will bite, now he needs to learn when it is ok to bite.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Chip18 said:


> Boards going to get really slow if everybody decides to sleep on it before posting!
> 
> Thoughtful reflection is refreshing for a change but let's not overdo it!


LOL, yes but, it was around 1:30 last night or this morning, whichever you prefer when I read the posting. At that time, I am working against the clock as Dad usually kicks me out of here around midnight. But on Sundays, when I work 90 minutes away, and usually do not get here until after 11PM, and always come bearing leftovers (enough for a good meal for Mom and Dad and me), Dad is usually much more tolerant about my internet usage.

Also, after midnight, my sense of humor disappears and my tolerance for some things disappears, and sometimes, it is best to just sleep on it. Unfortunately, the ability to realize that also goes way down after midnight, and that is probably why a percentage of those that get banned, got banned. 

I feel for the guy/gal in this situation. I wouldn't want to be in his shoes. No one wants their dog to bite someone who wasn't a serious threat to them. I am glad that she seems understanding about the whole situation. I have a boy that turned 2 in January. I had him at my sister's house yesterday. He was very excited to see the girls. Good. Her roommate went out with one of them to see him, and she petted him -- he was in an x-pen in the back yard. I was making lunch and watching through the door. She petted him, and as she drew her hand away, he barked at her. 

Both girls went out and gave him the remains of their lunch. I sent one of them out with a strip of bacon and reminded her to tell him GENTLE. The whole breakfast table watched as he gently took it out of her hands. Good. She fed him the giblits from the chicken I was making for dinner. Good boy. At the end of the day when it was very dark, the older daughter was sick most of the day, and he was lying close to her and to me as my sister descended the dark stair way. Cujo jumped up and barked at her. I got up and found a light, and when she got downstairs he was fine. But I don't know that I like how quick he is to bark at people in situation. I have had him for about 7 months maybe, and he is awesome with the girls. I expect him to relax more as he gets older. I just think that if someone walked right into my house, and he was lying there with the little girls, or even with me, he might make the wrong decision. So, I feel for the guy.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> Also, after midnight, my sense of humor disappears and my tolerance for some things disappears, and sometimes, it is best to just sleep on it. Unfortunately, the ability to realize that also goes way down after midnight, and that is probably why a percentage of those that get banned, got banned.


And that is a good "warning " for all the "night owls." I know late one night I got "testy." Same "silly" sins committed by the clueless...and they were copping an attitude!

Sent off ta long post, looked again, new poster same crap! "Again"...your freaking kidding me!! 

Fortunately I'm not prone to personal insults but I can get kind of "testy." In the morning after other replies I made it good, I think??

My Boxer and BullMastiff/APBT/Lab, people coming and going never gave them a thought. They loved everybody my GSD..not so much! He is in the right home now, no kids, no unannounced drop bys. He is "always" or first consideration.

He is well trained and well behaved goes to his place and stays there but he makes no effort to make folks feel welcome..."nice to see you,when you leaving??":blush:


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

Chip18 said:


> Boards going to get really slow if everybody decides to sleep on it before posting!
> 
> Thoughtful reflection is refreshing for a change but let's not overdo it!


Funny!


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## Mackinblack007 (Jan 13, 2015)

The dog did its job, if somebody walks in my house unannounced there lucky to leave alive.


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