# Bone and head size related to confidence



## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I was just reading an article about Fero vom Zeutener Himmelreich written by Ed Leerburg. In this article it was said that.... well here is the quote so I don't miss write it. "Am I the only one who seems to see that dogs with fine heads and fine bones have weak nerves? I think not, Bernard Flinks mentioned this fact..." and it goes on. This comment caught my attention. Do think there is any truth to this? How would one test/prove this?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

mycobraracr said:


> I was just reading an article about Fero vom Zeutener Himmelreich written by Ed Leerburg. In this article it was said that.... well here is the quote so I don't miss write it. "Am I the only one who seems to see that dogs with fine heads and fine bones have weak nerves? I think not, Bernard Flinks mentioned this fact..." and it goes on. This comment caught my attention. Do think there is any truth to this? How would one test/prove this?


My female would be considered fine boned and she is not by any means weak nerved, so I'd have to say no I don't believe it at all.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

My male is thick boned and he is full of himself. I wouldn't call my females, who are thinner than him, weak nerve though. Both do very well in a variety of environments and circumstances.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

except that Fero did not have weak nerves.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

GSD were regional working dogs that merged into one "breed" for uniformity.

the northern dog -- Thuringian was a longer limbed , slighter build , different head , finer , longer , sometimes without stop
the central dogs - Wurttembergers and Swabian came from the planes , different function - different body , lower set, heavier , sometimes drop eared, sometimes long coated . temperament less reactive. more active aggression . higher threshold . 
maybe this is where the statement is from.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

carmspack said:


> except that Fero did not have weak nerves.


 
Right! But he was talking about some of Fero's progeny. Either way the article was about Fero but the statement was GSD wide. It just caught my attention and I was wondering if you thought it had any truth to it.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

carmspack said:


> GSD were regional working dogs that merged into one "breed" for uniformity.
> 
> the northern dog -- Thuringian was a longer limbed , slighter build , different head , finer , longer , sometimes without stop
> the central dogs - Wurttembergers and Swabian came from the planes , different function - different body , lower set, heavier , sometimes drop eared, sometimes long coated . temperament less reactive. more active aggression . higher threshold .
> maybe this is where the statement is from.


 
This could be it. I don't know. I just read that and found it to be an interesting generalization. It made me start to think about all the dogs I have worked. If I was to make a generalization about the dogs I have worked I would say that the big head/boned dogs seemed to be harder dogs and extremely confident. I couldn't say that's because of structure though. IMO they have also been some of the better bred dogs I have worked so...


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I would say no to the basic premise that the corellation with fine heads and weak nerves exist....I know some real tough lines with and without Fero with fine heads that are known for strong nerves. NOW, you can breed for many generations, dogs that are rewarded for fine heads and in the new creation come up with dogs with high percent of fine heads and weak nerves....there is ample evidence of that.


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## Pooky44 (Feb 10, 2013)

cliffson1 said:


> I would say no to the basic premise that the corellation with fine heads and weak nerves exist....I know some real tough lines with and without Fero with fine heads that are known for strong nerves. NOW, you can breed for many generations, dogs that are rewarded for fine heads and in the new creation come up with dogs with high percent of fine heads and weak nerves....there is ample evidence of that.


Is there any evidence of dogs with big heads/bone and weak nerves? Seems that people are only saying that some fine head/bone dogs have good nerves. Constitutional psychology was pop psychology several decades ago. It is over simplified and based on stereotypes in humans. Looks like it is being carried over to canines (?)


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

From my experience - this is not true. I have 2 examples sitting next to me.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Lol, I don't know much psychology, and I don't know the clinical definition of stereotype, I DO know if I see something that holds true a vast majority of the time it's a pretty safe correlation. But my remarks are only based on my experiences, I'm sure others have other conclusions.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

I believe that weak nerves are from NOT choosing breeding partners with good nerve strength, whether or not they have fine bone.


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## Pooky44 (Feb 10, 2013)

Still waiting to hear from someone who has experienced a dog with strong head/bone that is weak nerved.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

I had a strong head and boned GSD in my opinion. In these pictures he was 90lbs. Very weak nerved.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

maybe big head bones leaves less room for brain development, less brain less anxious......jk


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Pooky44 said:


> Still waiting to hear from someone who has experienced a dog with strong head/bone that is weak nerved.


Look at some of the videos from past Sieger Shows. Many of the males have heads bordering on excessive (though the bone not as much, strong but not crazy).


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

There are plenty of dogs with big heads and weak nerves, like Lies said just look at some videos of Seiger show performances...the WGSL today often exhibits large heads, there are workinglines dogs with weak nerves and big heads, there are dogs of any size head and weak nerves. Period....but you will find weak nerves and big heads more often in some camps than others, and you will find weak nerves and fine bone heads more often in other camps....but weak nerves exists in all lines....just to different degrees.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Temple Grandin wrote about this in one of her books. She made the same correlation--slender, fine-boned animals tend to be more nervous and flighty, while heavier-boned, stocky animals tended to be calmer. I believe she was using horses as an example; fine-boned Arabs and Thoroughbreds tend to be high strung, while draft horses are calm.

While there does seem to be a correlation with horses, not so much with dogs. I have known very calm Greyhounds and totally neurotic Mastiffs.

I think the argument had something to do with the way fat is metabolized. Fat is essential for proper development and maintenance of the nervous system, and the lean, fine-boned animals carry little fat in their bodies, not enough to ensure proper nerve function.

It's an interesting theory, but I'm not sure it holds water.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

My big headed male is weaked nerve while my fine headed female is well... definitely not.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

"fine-boned Arabs and Thoroughbreds tend to be high strung"

thin boned animals have a lower fat % therefore are more nervous?

arabs & TB were bred fine boned AND highly stung for speed, stamina, endurance....that is not cause and effect.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I read Eds stuff for years before I got my current dog. I have always had GSDs but this is my first WL. I used to think that Ed was the authority on all GSD related information. I have since decided that this is not true. He hates Fero and swore he would never use Fero in his breeding program and chose to instead concentrate on Mink and Segus. Well, I don't Hate Mink or Segus but I do like some Fero in there as well. I think Fero brings the intensity up a few notches. As far as fine bones and week nerves. I fail to see the correlation. My dog is not exactly heavy boned. He has a great head but somewhat light on the bone side. His nerves are pretty solid. Now he will never be exposed to "real" pressure such as an actual police dog or MWD would. He is just a pet that also does IPO.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Some of those old Folks are very superstitious and despite all their knowledge and experience, believe in stuff where you can only shake your head.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

robk said:


> I read Eds stuff for years before I got my current dog. I have always had GSDs but this is my first WL. I used to think that Ed was the authority on all GSD related information. I have since decided that this is not true. He hates Fero and swore he would never use Fero in his breeding program and chose to instead concentrate on Mink and Segus. Well, I don't Hate Mink or Segus but I do like some Fero in there as well. I think Fero brings the intensity up a few notches. As far as fine bones and week nerves. I fail to see the correlation. My dog is not exactly heavy boned. He has a great head but somewhat light on the bone side. His nerves are pretty solid. Now he will never be exposed to "real" pressure such as an actual police dog or MWD would. He is just a pet that also does IPO.


 
Oh by no means do I think Ed is the end all be all. I just stumbled onto this article and found that statement interesting. It is very clear he hates Fero. Well, not so much Fero but everything he produced. He said, Fero produced hectic dogs that people confused for trainable drive. That's me paraphrasing him of course. Like I said, I just found that statement interesting. 



Mrs.K said:


> Some of those old Folks are very superstitious and despite all their knowledge and experience, believe in stuff where you can only shake your head.


 
Yeah I think you're right. This probably has more to do with it than anything else.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Pooky44 said:


> Still waiting to hear from someone who has experienced a dog with strong head/bone that is weak nerved.


Raises hand... owned a heavy boned, big headed (for a female) 3/4 DDR bitch that was definitely weak in the nerves. And have certainly seen some others.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

All one has to do is to look into German Showlines with those big mastiff type head, strong bones etc. and take them to the test. 

There is your proof.


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